# No lye, it's "soap"



## AudreeCo (Nov 21, 2011)

Ok, before I start, I am fully aware that is impossible to make a true soap without lye. You need the oil to saponify the fats, etc. etc. etc. 

A few months ago, I went to my local farmers market, and there were several people selling homemade soap. I bought one from one stand, found another with these tiny little bars, nice swirls and fragrance, so I bought some there too. I asked the woman, were did you get the lye? I've been looking for a reasonable supplier. And she swore up and down to me that she made her "soap", from scratch, with no lye, and she then told me she thought it was the palm kernal oil that made it stick together. Curious, I bought a few, stuck them in my car, and at the same time, stuck the real soap that I had bought earlier in the car too. It was a warm day, and when I got home, I took the soaps out, only to see that the "lye-less" soap had started to melt a little, but the real soap had just become a smidge soft. I used them in the shower, and the "lye-less" soap had a creamy lather, not bubbly at all like the real soap. It also left my skin softer, with no drag. 

A few days ago, I came across a bubble bar recipe on the internet that suggested adding coconut oil, unsaponified, to the recipe to create a lather. 





Now, my question here is, is there any way possible to make what would essentially be a moisturizing cleansing bar? Or, a lotion cleansing bar? Oil cleansing bar? Or something of the sort? I know it wouldn't be soap, but would it clean? Similar to an oil cleanser?


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## tlm884 (Nov 21, 2011)

I have no insight to these soaps however I just did want to mention that oil cleansers still have cleaning agents in them. They are oil soluble cleansing agents, instead of water soluble cleansing agents. They just aren't oils. Putting pure oils on your face wouldn't cleanse your skin, it would just stay on your skin and possibly clog your pores.


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## AudreeCo (Nov 21, 2011)

Taylor, I use straight olive oil to clean my combo skin, and my face has never been clearer. I take a small amount of olive oil, rub it into my skin, and then take a warm washrag and let it sit on my face for a minute, and then use the rag to wipe the excess oils off. I've never had a problem with it clogging my pores.


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## Sunny (Nov 21, 2011)

ugh. that's because olive oil has low or no comedogenicity. not all oils clog pores. and that is not what he was trying to say.

i don't know how adding unsaponified coconut oil to anything is going to create or increase its lather.

it sounds like it was possibly melt and pour soap with some added butter or oil?


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## tlm884 (Nov 21, 2011)

Sorry, I will rephrase what I am trying to say. Most oil cleansers on the market, are oil based instead of water based but still contain cleansers. Olive oil is olive oil, its not an oil cleanser.


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## AudreeCo (Nov 21, 2011)

I certainly wasn't trying to be confrontational. Just pointing out that not all oil cleanser have additives. I was thinking that it was a melt and pour base also, but before I call anyone a liar, I wanted to get a little feedback. I may try and make something similar, if I can find her labels, and if they even had the ingredients listed, and once I get some palm kernel oil. If I do, I'll definitely post my results.


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## debbism (Nov 22, 2011)

I would guess she used a melt & pour base such as the organic oils glycerin soap base like you can get from Organic-creations or Nuscents;

If they just went by the ingredients listed on the site or package of the base (see below) and didn't know how real soap is made, they would think lye never entered into the equation.

Ingredients: Filtered water, organic palm oil, organic coconut oil, glycerin, and sorbitol (a humectant derived from berries)

Anyway, that is my guess.  Usually Melt & Pour artisans who are NOT familiar with CP soap do not realize that lye was part of the process and of course, there is never lye left over in a finished bar of soap.  Hence their statement that it is soap without lye.

Like I said, this is my best guess.


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## fiddletree (Nov 22, 2011)

I don't know much about m&p soap, but if someone is selling it, shouldn't they know what soap *is*? I would be hesitant to buy from a 'soap maker' who didn't know that lye figures into the soap making process somewhere.


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## Fragola (Nov 22, 2011)

To answer the lye question, test the soap's pH. Alkaline implies lye.

Sure that oil cleans skin, just makes it in an ... oily manner.

What pure oil cannot possibly do is: lather.



> I take a small amount of olive oil, rub it into my skin, and then take a warm washrag and let it sit on my face for a minute, and then use the rag to wipe the excess oils off.


Is that rag wet or dry ? 
Wet would make more sense to me, especially for cleaning, since water is a very effective cleaning agent


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## carebear (Nov 22, 2011)

some people say, I swear, that adding unsaponified castor oil to MP soap will increase lather.  go figure.

i once gave them the benefit of the doubt and tried.  not so much.  the character of lather changes a bit - more dense and lower, but since oils interfere with lathering I'm not surprised by that.

maybe these folks also believe coconut does the same?

(btw, they're clearly confusing the reality of SAPONIFIED castor in CP/HP soap with the fantasy of adding unsaponified oil to MP soap, but whatever.)


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## Soapsugoii (Nov 22, 2011)

I use organic coconut oil alone to clean my face. For the last two years at least. Before that just plain olive. All i do is rub it on for a while, then sqweejee it off with a dry paper towel. So easy and effective for mw. Yall should give it a shot! Especially if you live somewhere dry


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## carebear (Nov 22, 2011)

Fragola said:
			
		

> To answer the lye question, test the soap's pH. Alkaline implies lye.
> 
> Sure that oil cleans skin, just makes it in an ... oily manner.
> 
> ...


I use a dry cloth.


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## AudreeCo (Nov 22, 2011)

Fragola said:
			
		

> To answer the lye question, test the soap's pH. Alkaline implies lye.
> 
> Sure that oil cleans skin, just makes it in an ... oily manner.
> 
> ...


I use a warm damp cloth. When I dig the soap out of my moving boxes I will test the pH. I didn't think about that.


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## AudreeCo (Nov 22, 2011)

Ok. As I said before, I thought the woman may have used a melt and pour base, but not wanting to call anyone a liar... Another thought I just had. Could she have been well educated about the soap making process enough to know that there is no lye left over in a finished bar of soap? Also she said that her daughter was having problems with lye - based soaps, which led me to believe that she wasn't superfatting enough or curing enough. I zap-tested my soaps. It just felt like I was five and said a naughty word, not a nine-volt battery.


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## carebear (Nov 22, 2011)

she's either lying or just doesn't know what she's talking about.

i think she probably doesn't even make the soap at all = but buys bars from someone who's told her a steaming pile of youknowwhat instead of telling her the truth.


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## IrishLass (Nov 22, 2011)

AudreeCo said:
			
		

> . Could she have been well educated about the soap making process enough to know that there is no lye left over in a finished bar of soap?



Well, if this is what she really said to you:: "And she swore up and down to me that she made her "soap", from scratch, with no lye, and she then told me she thought it was the palm kernal oil that made it stick together."  , it doesn't seem to me that she is very educated about what it takes to make soap 'from scratch',  and she also doesn't seem all that certain about what makes things 'stick together' in soap.  

If you ask me, I vote that she uses melt & pour, especially when you said her bars started to melt in the heat of your car while the real soap you bought only got a little soft. To me, that just screams of MP.

I agree with Fragola- to know for sure and to settle the uncertainty once for all- testing the pH will reveal who the lyer or liar is.  :wink:


IrishLass


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## soapbuddy (Nov 22, 2011)

carebear said:
			
		

> she's either lying or just doesn't know what she's talking about.
> 
> i think she probably doesn't even make the soap at all = but buys bars from someone who's told her a steaming pile of youknowwhat instead of telling her the truth.


This.
The bar that melted sounds like MP to me. I've seen so many MP soapmakers say there has never been lye in their soap. I work with MP as well as CP and I educate my customers on each one. It's just some people aren't willing to listen and believe only what they want to hear.


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## AudreeCo (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm definitely going to do a pH test once I find the bars. Should I just grate a little, melt it down and then stick a pH paper in it? I've never worked with M&P, so I had no idea that it would melt in the car.


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## IrishLass (Nov 22, 2011)

Slaps head! I can't believe I didn't think of this first  :roll: .......Melt & Pour is specially designed to melt easily, so you can probably forego the pH test and just heat the soap on a pan over low heat. If it melts down to a nice creamy, smooth liquid consistency, and then sets back up into a smooth, solid consistency when cool, it's M & P. Real soap is much harder to melt, and when it does, it doesn't melt into a smooth, creamy consistency- it's more like gloppy, thick mashed potatoes in consistency.

IrishLass


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## Fragola (Nov 22, 2011)

> I'm definitely going to do a pH test once I find the bars. Should I just grate a little, melt it down and then stick a pH paper in it?


Grate, add water, test pH of the water. Don't melt/mix too much, if you turn it into a gooey batter, it will stick onto the pH paper and you can't see the color. 



> Melt & Pour is specially designed to melt easily, so you can probably forego the pH test and just heat the soap on a pan over low heat.


Aren't certain M&P bases are lye based ?


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## tlm884 (Nov 22, 2011)

I think all melt and pour is lye-based. It also contains high amounts of glycerin and sugar/sugar alcohols and sometimes soy proteins.


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## debbism (Nov 22, 2011)

tlm884 said:
			
		

> I think all melt and pour is lye-based. It also contains high amounts of glycerin and sugar/sugar alcohols and sometimes soy proteins.



Yes...the organic oils MP base is saponified oils - maybe she did not understand the term saponified.  if you don't know what it means, you won't understand that lye was needed to saponify the oils.  There are others which are made from detergents like Sodium Laureth Sulphate (SLES) and such.

Again, what was said before....OILS by themselves will NEVER NEVER EVER lather or make bubbles.


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## carebear (Nov 22, 2011)

"organic" MP is lye based, but many MP bases are detergents and not soaps, and thus lye was not used in their production (unless to adjust the pH)


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## Alaska beauty (Nov 23, 2011)

I have the same "lady" at local market with Shea butter soap. Ask her to melt oils and butters together before tell fairy tails. They are braking law, you can let local FDA agent to help her  :twisted:


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## Pentazole (Nov 24, 2011)

Well, you can never make "soap" without lye because by definition, soap is saponified triglycerides - more specifically, the metal salt of fatty acids, which is obtained most easily by saponifying triglycerides using sodium or potassium hydroxide.  So even if you do make "soap" without lye, it can't be called "soap" unless it contains metal salts of fatty acids.  Unfortunately this is a small technicality that is often forgotten in the business and people call solid bars "soap" even if they contained non-fatty acid surfactants.  

It's definitely melt and pour, and the lady didn't really know what she was talking about - I agree it's scary to buy soap from soapmakers who don't know what they are selling.

If the ingredients do not say "sodium palm kernelate" or something that starts with "sodium" and ends in "ate" (sodium olivate, sodium cocoate, sodium palmate) then not only is she naive, but she is also false advertising.

Regarding washing the face with olive oil, while that works for some people, it may be problematic for others, especially those with acne prone skin.  I don't know about others, but for me when I think "cleanser", I think of getting rid of the oily feeling on my skin, so I want a nice real bar of soap!


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## dagmar88 (Nov 24, 2011)

Pentazole said:
			
		

> Well, you can never make "soap" without lye because by definition, soap is saponified triglycerides - more specifically, the metal salt of fatty acids, which is obtained most easily by saponifying triglycerides using sodium or potassium hydroxide.  So even if you do make "soap" without lye, it can't be called "soap" unless it contains metal salts of fatty acids.  *Unfortunately this is a small technicality that is often forgotten in the business and people call solid bars "soap" even if they contained non-fatty acid surfactants. *



FDA's very clear on this subject.
They're selling cosmetics as soap. Not a smart thing to do...




			
				Pentazole said:
			
		

> If the ingredients do not say "sodium palm kernelate" or something that starts with "sodium" and ends in "ate" (sodium olivate, sodium cocoate, sodium palmate) then not only is she naive, but she is also false advertising.



Not necessarily. I label what goes in, instead of what's in the final product.
If you'd declare as above, you'd run into all kinds of troubles.
You'd have to find out the amount of water in your soap after cure and which oils/butters aren't saponified and in what amount.
Also, often whebnyou see "sodium palm kernelate" that is what went in the final product; the oils come pre-saponified.


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## AudreeCo (Nov 24, 2011)

dagmar88 said:
			
		

> Pentazole said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Pre-saponified oils?


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## Pentazole (Nov 24, 2011)

dagmar88 said:
			
		

> Not necessarily. I label what goes in, instead of what's in the final product.
> If you'd declare as above, you'd run into all kinds of troubles.
> You'd have to find out the amount of water in your soap after cure and which oils/butters aren't saponified and in what amount.
> Also, often whebnyou see "sodium palm kernelate" that is what went in the final product; the oils come pre-saponified.



Aye I agree, but I was referring to this case in specific.  The point was if no "lye" was listed, then there has to be a fatty acid salt.  It's either NaOH/KOH and oils, or "sodium"or"potassium" ....... "ate".

at any rate, those that produce the base of melt and pour soap aren't making it CP way, they are using presaponified oils


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