# Organic vs. non-organic oils?



## drunkonlife (Apr 19, 2017)

New to soapmaking and am building up a small collection of oils (coconut oil, olive oil, a little shea butter, etc.)  I eat organic and naturally bought organic oil but am now rethinking my decision considering how harsh the soapmaking process is and the chemical changes that occur.

Other than saying 'it's organic' is there any benefit to using organic materials in soap?  The difference in price is GINOURMOUS!

Also, I bought some palm kernel oil and am now learning that there is a definite difference between palm oil and palm kernel oil.  Will I need to buy palm oil if the recipe calls for it or can I readjust my lye mixture for PKO?


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## BrewerGeorge (Apr 19, 2017)

No opinion on the organic thing, but palm oil is very different from PKO.  You can adjust the lye and make soap with it, but the result will be a different soap.  Think of PKO as similar to coconut oil.


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## drunkonlife (Apr 19, 2017)

Thanks.  I was suspecting so much as PKO is such a hard oil.  So, generally I can expect a harder bar of soap out the gate then, I guess?  *sigh*  Guess I need to hit the local grocery for some palm oil....


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## lionprincess00 (Apr 19, 2017)

Generally speaking, you have 4 types of fats.
Cleansing ones which strip natural oils. These are CO, pko flakes, babassu oil. These are used at a lower % to cleanse, bubble, but not completely strip your hide.
Then you have your hard fats to make a creamy hard bar. Palm, tallow, and lard are predominantly used.
You also have your oils to soften the soap some, add their qualities to the finished bar etc. Olive, avocado, sweet almond oil, ho sunflower, castor to stabalize lather etc.
Finally are your butters. Shea, cocoa, mango. These add creaminess and some unsaponified qualities (shea does I know). 
There are others of course, but these are beginner basics.

So pko is used, more often, with co as a split. Think if 20% co, split half co half pko, or 12% co with 8% pko type of thing.
You need to grab palm, lard or tallow. I love lard. Cheap at walmart, makes a creamy bar, nice overall. 

On organic, it's a personal choice. I am not willing to go broke for my hobby lol, so I choose regular oils. You cant say your soap is 100% organic anyway without buying only essential oils 100% organic and lye 100% organic, which lye isn't and never will be.


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## toxikon (Apr 19, 2017)

I personally think that it's not worth the price bump for organic. It's only label appeal.


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## shunt2011 (Apr 19, 2017)

Another one who doesn't think it's worth the cost to use organic in soap.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 19, 2017)

Thinking practically, what makes an organic oil "organic"?  Generally, it is the products used on something during the growing stages of it (even for animals), pesticides, antibiotics and the like.  So a better term is "organically grown" in that sense.  It extends to manufactured products being made mainly with organically grown products.

A question is - how much of those pesticides and other chemicals are in the plants grown?  The next question, how much of these make it in to the final oil?  Next, how much of these make it in to the finished soap, once the lye monster has had some fun with it all?

Then we have to look at how much of this final amount actually enters us.  If you eat a non-organically grown avocado, that is one thing.  But using a bar of soap that was made with oil produced from a non-organically grown avocado............that is something else.  The amount of soap on the body is quite small, and the oils are only a part of that - the pesticides and so on in that oil part of the of small amount of soap on the skin will be small, and only a very small amount of that small amount of a small amount will enter the body................

I don't think that "organic oils" are needed for soaping.


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## IrishLass (Apr 19, 2017)

I agree. It's not worth the price to buy organic oils for soap-making.

Re: the difference between Palm/PKO. Ditto what the others have said- they are very different from each other and produce very different results in soap. Although both contribute to hardness, palm oil contributes very little in the way bubbly lather and is not anywhere near as skin-stripping compared to PKO, which produces lots of bubbly lather and is a much more powerful cleanser/skin-stripper than palm oil. 



			
				lionprincess00 said:
			
		

> Finally are your butters. Shea, cocoa, mango. These add creaminess and some unsaponified qualities (shea does I know).


 
Butters also contribute to hardness.


IrishLass


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## lionprincess00 (Apr 19, 2017)

IrishLass said:


> I agree. It's not worth the price to buy organic oils for soap-making.
> 
> Re: the difference between Palm/PKO. Ditto what the others have said- they are very different from each other and produce very different results in soap. Although both contribute to hardness, palm oil contributes very little in the way bubbly lather and is not anywhere near as skin-stripping compared to PKO, which produces lots of bubbly lather and is a much more powerful cleanser/skin-stripper than palm oil.
> 
> ...



Youre right!  I was going to state mango especially, I noticed, makes for a real hard bar, but I left it out. I should have also mentioned those wanting an animal and palm free soap tend to use butters to harden a bar (if not making castille etc).


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## SheLion (Apr 19, 2017)

Depending on the price difference, I will sometimes buy organic (mainly shea butter as I use it in some leave-on products). I don't care about label appeal and I realize that the lye monster leaves little unscathed. However, I do consider that purchasing organic means that fewer pesticides were used and released into the air and soil during the growing process, meaning the oil's carbon footprint is overall less and that is important to me. Anything I can do to contribute to a less toxic world overall is a good thing.


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## toxikon (Apr 19, 2017)

Not trying to "stir the pot", but organic farming has both pros and cons when it comes to the environment. I'm still on the fence about it, TBH - in it's current condition, anyway. Hopefully we'll find the best methods to protect the environment as we progress through time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming#Disadvantages


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## SaltedFig (Apr 19, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> New to soapmaking and am building up a small collection of oils (coconut oil, olive oil, a little shea butter, etc.)  I eat organic and naturally bought organic oil but am now rethinking my decision considering how harsh the soapmaking process is and the chemical changes that occur.



 The choice to make soap using certified organic oils can be made for much the same reasons as making the choice to use organic ingredients in food – to control or limit exposure to potentially harmful substances.

  Heavy metals and some pesticides (including ones that are now banned, such as DDT) can reside in soils for decades. The certification process requires on-farm soil testing, and no farm can become certified organic if they do not pass these tests.

  Plants are able to uptake toxins to greater or lesser degrees. Some species are so good at this that they are used as bioremediators. An example of an excellent phytoremediator (bioremediating plant) is the sunflower, which has been used to extract radioactive toxins from the areas surrounding Fukushima, with remarkable results.

  Oils made from plants (or animals) grown on soils with a high heavy metal or pesticide “load” from years of industrial and/or farm use can contain pesticides, heavy metals, genetically modified ingredients and on. The risk of contamination can be considered low, but cannot be said to be zero.


Some people choose organic food to avoid the risk, some people choose organic skin care products (or, as in the case of soap that can never certified 100% organic due to the lye, skin care products made with certified organic oils) to avoid or minimise the risk. It really is up to you.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 20, 2017)

SaltedFig said:


> The choice to make soap using certified organic oils can be made for much the same reasons as making the choice to use organic ingredients in food – to control or limit exposure to potentially harmful substances.
> 
> Heavy metals and some pesticides (including ones that are now banned, such as DDT) can reside in soils for decades. The certification process requires on-farm soil testing, and no farm can become certified organic if they do not pass these tests.
> 
> ...



But what IS that risk?  It's not zero, but what are we actually talking about?  I'm not saying that people shouldn't use organic oils, but I am saying that people should actually be informed before deciding whether to do so or not.

So how what % of a non organic oil is made up of a heavy metal?  Of that, how much enters our blood stream?

Is that final figure actually then dangerous?  Our bodies themselves produce "dangerous" chemicals naturally, but in amounts which make it far from bad for us - so is the final amount of a heavy metal which is absorbed via bathing or using a lotion at a level which would cause harm?


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## SaltedFig (Apr 21, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But what IS that risk?  It's not zero, but what are we actually talking about?  I'm not saying that people shouldn't use organic oils, but I am saying that people should actually be informed before deciding whether to do so or not.
> 
> So how what % of a non organic oil is made up of a heavy metal?  Of that, how much enters our blood stream?
> 
> Is that final figure actually then dangerous?  Our bodies themselves produce "dangerous" chemicals naturally, but in amounts which make it far from bad for us - so is the final amount of a heavy metal which is absorbed via bathing or using a lotion at a level which would cause harm?



I come at this from the other end of the scale - I prefer to err on the side of caution. I like oils that I can have confidence in having a known and traceable history, with no additives, preservatives, GMO's or pesticides. Organic certification provides me with that level of certainty, and the soil testing for heavy metals and residual pesticides helps remove another possible source of contamination of the oil. It doesn't mean that oils that aren't certified are contaminated, it just means I don't have to worry about it :mrgreen:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 21, 2017)

But that can lead to some problems - for example, the false idea often purported online that a preservative in a product should be avoided because there might be a slight chance of a risk of a possible issue.  Also other things like syndet ingredients which many people automatically equate with being something to avoid at all costs.

While each person is free, of course, to choose organic oils or not, I think it right that the issue be explored in a reasonable way, especially in a thread looking at organic and non-organic as a source.  Not everyone can pay the price of organic oils, and so erring on the side of caution is not an option for everyone.


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## SaltedFig (Apr 21, 2017)

I'm not trying to convince anyone else to use organic oils. 
On the other hand, offering them as an alternative, and some information  as to why I choose then, when the question is raised, is not  unreasonable.

There may be misinformation out there. That does make discussion a little harder.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 21, 2017)

Agreed.  But is the cost actually required?  As you say, you pay the extra just in case.  But if that is not what someone wants or can do, then a deeper look at the potential issue is not unreasonable.


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## styarr (Apr 21, 2017)

Organic farmers do use pesticides, often ones that are just as toxic as synthetic pesticides, and their products do have residue. A study was done here in Canada that showed 50% of organic produce in supermarkets had pesticide residue. I'd also like to point out that if the product was produced in another country it may not have been done with the same standards as the country you are buying from. There have been heavy metals found in organic food, especially those imported from certain countries. Despite soil testing, there is a risk of introducing heavy metals through manure. The only way to know 100% is to test it yourself.


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## SaltedFig (Apr 21, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Agreed.  But is the cost  actually required?  As you say, you pay the extra just in case.  But if  that is not what someone wants or can do, then a deeper look at the  potential issue is not unreasonable.



Absolutely. I think some of the problem with complex issues (like skin reactions and their causes, or health and dietary input as two classic examples) is that finding the cause (or causes) can be time-consuming and requiring of concerted and sustained effort - not everyone is up for that, and (not unreasonably) go searching for answers online.

I would also encourage looking at alternatives (to whatever ideal is being looked at).

 A short story - I have a friend that comes from very practical stock and we regularly "argue" the toss on organic growing, and debate growing media, composts, plants sources and on ... I come from pretty much the same perspective as I do here with the oils, she basically wants people to get into growing their own first, and worry about the costly/fiddly/details later.

There's a point to both perspectives. It's good to have both available, I think.


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## SaltedFig (Apr 21, 2017)

styarr said:


> Organic farmers do use pesticides, often ones that are just as toxic as synthetic pesticides, and their products do have residue. A study was done here in Canada that showed 50% of organic produce in supermarkets had pesticide residue. I'd also like to point out that if the product was produced in another country it may not have been done with the same standards as the country you are buying from. There have been heavy metals found in organic food, especially those imported from certain countries. Despite soil testing, there is a risk of introducing heavy metals through manure. The only way to know 100% is to test it yourself.



Pesticides used in organic farming have to meet organic input criteria here. So copper sulphate and slaked lime is accepted for some spraying purposes (as an example). Roundup, and similar, is not accepted. I'm not sure on the residue in Canada, I can only speak for the people I deal with (who are the farmers of the organic produce I buy). I don't know if my local supermarket has organic fruit and vegetables - I suppose they would. It's sad that you have so much pesticide spray - hardly organic then :silent:

On manures, there is also a risk to the soil bacteria and worm populations if the animals have recently been drenched too (organic inputs is another topic that I could REALLY go on about lol).


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## Seawolfe (Apr 21, 2017)

SaltedFig said:


> Pesticides used in organic farming have to meet organic input criteria here. So copper sulphate and slaked lime is accepted for some spraying purposes (as an example). Roundup, and similar, is not accepted. I'm not sure on the residue in Canada, I can only speak for the people I deal with (who are the farmers of the organic produce I buy). I don't know if my local supermarket has organic fruit and vegetables - I suppose they would. It's sad that you have so much pesticide spray - hardly organic then :silent:



According to that wikki article, rotenone (the ingredient in roundup) and also pyrethrins and azadirachtin are allowed on organic foods. I guess Im not so surprised about roundup - its half life is very short, but Im a bit surprised about the pyrethrins and azadirachtin because of the damage to beneficial insects, especially bees.



> In organic farming synthetic pesticides are generally prohibited. A chemical is said to be synthetic if it does not already exist in the natural world. But the organic label goes further and usually prohibit compounds that exist in nature if they are produced by Chemical synthesis. So the prohibition is also about the method of production and not only the nature of the compound.
> 
> A non exhaustive list of organic approved pesticides with theirs Median lethal dose
> 
> ...


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## SaltedFig (Apr 21, 2017)

Hi SeaWolfe,

I had to go and check our standards for the Wiki list that you supplied. It looks like there are some that cross over, but others that are not allowed here.

The most notable differences were:
*Methyl Bromide (Bromomethane)* was prohibited at Federal Government level completely by Jan 1 2005

*Rotenone* expressly prohibited in our organic standards (no use allowed)

*Boron products (incl. Boric Acid)* only for use as a micronutrient

  Pyrethins and Neem products: Falls under botanical pesticides, so there is provision for some (restricted) use of the non-synthetic version of these.

 Seems like Australian organic restrictions are tighter than documented in Wiki.


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## Seawolfe (Apr 21, 2017)

My apologies! I only just noticed you're in Australia. That site was quoting USDA regs. Want some GMO corn? :headbanging: 


SaltedFig said:


> Hi SeaWolfe,
> 
> I had to go and check our standards for the Wiki list that you supplied. It looks like there are some that cross over, but others that are not allowed here.
> 
> ...


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## KatyP (Apr 13, 2018)

For me, I soap with only organic oils. Not because I am concerned with what might be in the oil itself, but because before I was a soap maker I was a beekeeper. I still am. I raise 4 different types of bees, only one of which is a honeybee. I use organic oils so that I know that my soap did not create a demand (minimal though it is) for an oil from a crop that was treated with those specific chemicals. I sell my honey, I sell  bees, and I sell my soap all together as one business with ties to bee conservation groups. I make it very clear to my customers that I use only organic oils, but that because I must use lye to make the product, the product itself can never be certified organic. They get it. It works well for me, and my customers have no problem paying the higher cost for my products (from $6.25 up to $9.50/bar USD) because they support the concept.


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## lenarenee (Apr 13, 2018)

KatyP said:


> For me, I soap with only organic oils. Not because I am concerned with what might be in the oil itself, but because before I was a soap maker I was a beekeeper. I still am. I raise 4 different types of bees, only one of which is a honeybee. I use organic oils so that I know that my soap did not create a demand (minimal though it is) for an oil from a crop that was treated with those specific chemicals. I sell my honey, I sell  bees, and I sell my soap all together as one business with ties to bee conservation groups. I make it very clear to my customers that I use only organic oils, but that because I must use lye to make the product, the product itself can never be certified organic. They get it. It works well for me, and my customers have no problem paying the higher cost for my products (from $6.25 up to $9.50/bar USD) because they support the concept.



Thank you Katy - I never thought of it that way!     (what kind of bees do you keep?)

Why is Roundup - with it's short half life - found in humans?  Crops picked and sold shortly after spraying?  Does Round up then degrade as quickly in the human body?

Now I wish there was a classification for 100% pesticide free crops.  Although, I understand the frustration bugs cause farmers; I can't even grow nasturtiums here because of those little white moths that lay eggs under the leaves. The  pretty green inch worms must have been the inspiration behind the The Hungry Caterpillar book!


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## SaltedFig (Apr 13, 2018)

lenaree, there are circumstances where this pesticide can with stay in soil for a lot longer than the advertised half-life. It can transfer from the soil to the plant, and in the case of some crop spraying schedules, still have residue on the plant at harvest (withholding period and growing condition dependent).



lenarenee said:


> Now I wish there was a classification for 100% pesticide free crops.  Although, I understand the frustration bugs cause farmers; I can't even grow nasturtiums here because of those little white moths that lay eggs under the leaves. The  pretty green inch worms must have been the inspiration behind the The Hungry Caterpillar book!



The cabbage white moth (which it sounds like you are describing - it's not even a moth, common names are that good) can be brought under control a bit if you can encourage hunters into your garden (insect eating birds are excellent, but the wasps tend to do a brilliant job, if you can set up some habitats for them, like insect hotels and wood mulched areas). Encouraging lady bugs is another one ... before they are go through their final molt and become nectar drinking lady bugs, they are hunters of aphids and other small eaters of plants. Round it off with some lizard habitats, and your laughing. 

Which reminds me ... exclusion cages work (5 to 6mm wire lets bees in, but keeps butterflies out), if you just want to save something, or get a new plant started. Just have the cage far enough away from the plant so they can't land on the cage and use that to perch on to lay eggs! If the white butterfly's and their caterpillars are seasonal (which they are here), you might be able to get away with using exclusion cages for just the peek infestation times (at the start of the warm weather, usually).



KatyP said:


> For me, I soap with only organic oils. Not because I am concerned with what might be in the oil itself, but because before I was a soap maker I was a beekeeper. I still am. I raise 4 different types of bees, only one of which is a honeybee. I use organic oils so that I know that my soap did not create a demand (minimal though it is) for an oil from a crop that was treated with those specific chemicals. I sell my honey, I sell  bees, and I sell my soap all together as one business with ties to bee conservation groups. I make it very clear to my customers that I use only organic oils, but that because I must use lye to make the product, the product itself can never be certified organic. They get it. It works well for me, and my customers have no problem paying the higher cost for my products (from $6.25 up to $9.50/bar USD) because they support the concept.



KatyP, Sodium and Potassium hydroxides are allowed inputs into certified organic products (this applies in Australia, America and some European countries).

Soap cannot be registered as 100% organic (as you already know), but if you include sufficient organic ingredients in your recipe, you can get still get a lower tier certification (which does place restrictions on labelling, mostly moving the information to the rear of the packaging. This appeals to customers looking for a certified organic product).


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## [email protected] (Apr 14, 2018)

a half life is just that. 
The time it takes half the substance to degrade. The other half is left. That degrades in another 'half life'. The time taken for the substance to reach 0 is infinite, as it is only ever half of the amount.
Half lives are calculated under specific conditions, so yes, environmental conditions do make an impact.


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## SaltedFig (Apr 14, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> a half life is just that.
> The time it takes half the substance to degrade. The other half is left. That degrades in another 'half life'. The time taken for the substance to reach 0 is infinite, as it is only ever half of the amount.
> Half lives are calculated under specific conditions, so yes, environmental conditions do make an impact.



Yup. That's exactly right Sandra ... it can stick around in the soil for a long time (years), and this time can be significantly longer than the half-life calculated under laboratory conditions.

However, unlike pure mathematical calculations (where there is no real end point), there is a finite end to the decay of physical matter.

If you would like to read up on the half-life of pesticides in soil, this article describes the process quite well (I have not double-checked the actual figures they use).
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/half-life.html


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## penelopejane (Apr 14, 2018)

I make some organic soaps.  It is a personal decision to use organic soap.
Often when someone gets cancer the first thing they do is to revert to all organic.
Why knows?
Let people make a choice that keeps them happy and try not to criticise it.
I think live and let live applies here.


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