# Newbie question and comment on "hand milled" term



## SoapSap (Jan 30, 2015)

I search soaps on Etsy all the time to view all the beautiful soap that is being made and to get ideas for my own soap-making. 

One of the terms I come across in some soap descriptions in Etsy shops is "hand milled". As I understand the description it is what I know as rebatched soap. And rebatching soap is what soap-makers do when a CP batch has not turned out the way they wanted. 

My query is: Why would a soap-maker plan to make rebatched soap rather than just make HP soap. I don't understand what the advantage rebatched soap has over HP.  Is there a reason to prefer rebatched? It seems like a lot of extra work to me.  Is it harder, milder, better in any way?


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## DeeAnna (Jan 30, 2015)

Yes, rebatching can also be used to fix a soap, but it is also a valid production method. Rebatched soap as a production method lets the soaper make a large amount of a basic soap. Later on, as the soaper gets orders for a particular fragrance, the soaper can then take smaller portions of the finished soap and add scent, etc. as she likes. 

This is the reason for "soap noodles" sold on the commercial market -- there are machines designed to mix noodles, fragrance, and other additives and spit out soap bars ready to package and sell. Brambleberry sells soap shreds for rebatching -- I think their angle is to appeal to prospective soapers who want to test the waters first with a pre-made soap base.

For the record, rebatching isn't milling; it's a pet peeve of mine when people try to make rebatching into something it's not. Something I wrote about the subject awhile back:

"Milling is the process of running _relatively dry, cool_ soap through a process that squeezes and mixes the soap with pressure. This process hardens and polishes the soap to improve its appearance and make the soap more long lasting. Fragrance and color can also be mixed into the soap during milling. Because the soap stays relatively cool, delicate, expensive fragrances that would otherwise deteriorate from heat or excess water can be milled into a soap. Soap was originally milled by hand by rubbing cool, dry soap into thin sheets, folding the soap over and over, using a specialized type of mortar and pestle. It took about 1/2 hour or better to hand mill a batch -- a tedious, labor intensive process. Automated equipment was later developed to do the job. A traditional soap milling machine consists of polished stone rollers that have a small gap between them -- the cool, dry soap is forced into that gap. The process is much like passing an article of clothing through the rollers in an old-fashioned wringer washer or forcing noodle dough through a pasta machine."

On the other hand, rebatching is the process of melting soap with heat, adding liquid, and mixing the hot, damp paste into a uniform mixture. The method is quite different than milling soap, whether by hand or by machine.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 30, 2015)

^^^^ This!  I really hate it when milling and rebatching (and rebatching and HP, for that matter) are used as if they are the same thing.  Grrrrrrr, says this grumpy Englishman.


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## mjt123 (Jan 30, 2015)

Is it best to rebatch soap soon after making it?  I rebatched some OO soap several months later and it took a long time to melt.

I have certainly found that if I want fragerance in my soap then rebatching works best. I have been toying with the idea of making some 100% coconut oil soap with a 20% superfat and then rebatching it mixed with OO and Avocado or some other mixture. Does anyone think it may be worth it or a waste of time?


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## IrishLass (Jan 30, 2015)

micktunbridge said:


> Is it best to rebatch soap soon after making it? I rebatched some OO soap several months later and it took a long time to melt.


 
Although one can rebatch soap at any time, the sooner you can rebatch it, the easier it will be.



micktunbridge said:


> I have been toying with the idea of making some 100% coconut oil soap with a 20% superfat and then rebatching it mixed with OO and Avocado or some other mixture. Does anyone think it may be worth it or a waste of time?


 
I personally don't think it would be a waste of time. Instead, I think it would be a cool experiment. 


IrishLass


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 30, 2015)

micktunbridge said:


> ............I have certainly found that if I want fragerance in my soap then rebatching works best. I have been toying with the idea of making some 100% coconut oil soap with a 20% superfat and then rebatching it mixed with OO and Avocado or some other mixture. Does anyone think it may be worth it or a waste of time?



It depends - are you looking to make a great big load of soap (say, 10 times your usual batch size) and then rebatch parts of it as you need it?  Or would you be taking a usual batch size and doing it?

If the latter, just use HP rather than making a CP soap and rebatching it.

As to the mixing the CO soap, are you mixing it just with OO and Avo oils, or soaps?  If just oils, then you don't need to make a 20% SF CO soap, as these oils will be increasing it.


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## mjt123 (Jan 30, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It depends - are you looking to make a great big load of soap (say, 10 times your usual batch size) and then rebatch parts of it as you need it?  Or would you be taking a usual batch size and doing it?
> 
> If the latter, just use HP rather than making a CP soap and rebatching it.
> 
> As to the mixing the CO soap, are you mixing it just with OO and Avo oils, or soaps?  If just oils, then you don't need to make a 20% SF CO soap, as these oils will be increasing it.



I was thinking of making just a usual batch size with the purpose of rebatching it. I would be mixing the CO soap with OO and Avo soap.

I have never tried HP  does the fragerance survive HP better than CP?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 31, 2015)

It does. Basically, mix your oils and lye solution in a slow cooker and cook it until is stops zapping. Let it cool slightly and add in your fragrance and/or superfats. When it stops zapping, all of the lye is away so things that you add have nothing to react with any more. 

There are a lot of videos about it which let you see how it looks (very good so you know what to expect!)


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## Dana89 (Feb 1, 2015)

*Interesting*

Thanks DeeAnna for explaining that. I myself have see the two terms as being interchangeable on youtube. Now I am going to try to find a real milling soap on there, it doesn't sound like anything I would ever do but it sounds fascinating to watch.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 1, 2015)

"...I myself have see the two terms as being interchangeable on youtube...."

Yep, I see it all the time too. Citing "I read it on the internet" in a term paper was never a way for my students to earn a high grade.

I know one person said she used a noodle machine to mill soap. I don't know how that actually worked for her, but it would be the closest thing to a real milling machine that hobby soap makers might have access to.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 1, 2015)

"...noodle machine..."

I mean the kind of gadget you use to make Italian pasta. I realized "noodle machine" might be a little confusing to others, because ~I~ got confused when I re-read my previous post!


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## SoapSap (Feb 1, 2015)

Thank you for the explanations. What I think now is people who are using this term "hand milled" should not use it when they are selling this soap.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 1, 2015)

No one should use it unless they are actually milling soap, as per the description given.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 1, 2015)

I agree, but I try really hard to not be too shrill about this -- it's not my goal to be a member of the milling/rebatching police. I'm already in deep do-do with some folks about soap pH issues. I don't want to get too much of a reputation as an overly grumpy science curmudgeon.


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## Cactuslily (Feb 1, 2015)

I recently came across a lovely blog called Halcyon Bath. In one of her posts, she mentioned handmilling, and I couldn't find anything except info about rebatching on the Internet,and that didn't sound like what she was doing. Thank you for clarifying the difference.


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## Dorymae (Feb 1, 2015)

DeeAnna, reading your description I get a mental picture of running fresh soap through a pasta maker then rolling it out with a granite pin upon a piece of granite, then folding it and repeating umpteen times. 

I swear I am really into soap too deep because I'm wondering what it would really come out like!  Thankfully I have too many experiments on the to do list to consider trying!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 1, 2015)

That sure would work, Dorymae, but I agree it's entirely too much work!


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## cmzaha (Feb 1, 2015)

Dorymae said:


> DeeAnna, reading your description I get a mental picture of running fresh soap through a pasta maker then rolling it out with a granite pin upon a piece of granite, then folding it and repeating umpteen times.
> 
> I swear I am really into soap too deep because I'm wondering what it would really come out like! Thankfully I have too many experiments on the to do list to consider trying!


 
And here I sit looking at my pasta maker that has not been put to use in several years...nooooooo :crazy: not even going to think it but then maybe....


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 2, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> I agree, but I try really hard to not be too shrill about this -- it's not my goal to be a member of the milling/rebatching police. I'm already in deep do-do with some folks about soap pH issues. I don't want to get too much of a reputation as an overly grumpy science curmudgeon.


 
You concentrate on the science, I'll take the "grumpy pedant" role on - it comes naturally to me


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## houseofwool (Feb 2, 2015)

*Newbie question and comment on &quot;hand milled&quot; term*

Effy, you might be the only other person to use pedant!  I'm constantly telling my 6 year old to not be pedantic.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 2, 2015)

I'm afraid that being a curmudgeon, at least in US culture, mostly applies to men and it carries an aura of exasperated lovableness -- kind of like the main characters in Grumpy Old Men, with Walter Mathau and Jack Lemmon. Unfortunately there's no term for women that implies the same grumpy but lovable qualities. B***h is the closest equivalent, but it's not a term of endearment. 

Gent, I gladly cede the honors of being The Grumpy Pedant to you.

And anybody who dusts off their pasta roller and tries it with soap ... I want a full report! Please!!!


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## kchaystack (Feb 2, 2015)

You know, I have a pasta roller that I use with Sculpey clay for making geocaheing swag....   hrm....   




DeeAnna said:


> I'm afraid that being a curmudgeon, at least in US culture, mostly applies to men and it carries an aura of exasperated lovableness -- kind of like the main characters in Grumpy Old Men, with Walter Mathau and Jack Lemmon. Unfortunately there's no term for women that implies the same grumpy but lovable qualities. B***h is the closest equivalent, but it's not a term of endearment.
> 
> Gent, I gladly cede the honors of being The Grumpy Pedant to you.
> 
> And anybody who dusts off their pasta roller and tries it with soap ... I want a full report! Please!!!


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## IrishLass (Feb 2, 2015)

Dorymae said:


> DeeAnna, reading your description I get a mental picture of running fresh soap through a pasta maker then rolling it out with a granite pin upon a piece of granite, then folding it and repeating umpteen times.


 
Just like laminating dough for croissants! Hmmm.....you know, I've got a pasta roller _and_ that new, heavy, marble rolling pin that I bought the other day..........nah, nevermind. I have too much on my plate right now....like  making more laugencroissants! And they are much more delicious than soap! 


IrishLass


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## Dorymae (Feb 2, 2015)

I agree, probably too much work, however I confess it did earn a place in the experiments notebook. Someday I will probably try it just to see how fine of a product I could create by hand. I copied DeeAnna's description in there so I won't forget!


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## kchaystack (Feb 2, 2015)

So here is what I am thinking.  Make a small batch of soap, and split it in 2 equal portions.  Color these complementary colors.  Then pour these onto baking sheets to make thin sheets of soap. 

After they have set up some, cut this into ribbons, and then start feeding them thru the pasta machine, starting on the thickest setting and work it thinner and thinner.  then stack the thinned soap in alternating colors, and run them thru several more times to fuse them.  

Finally, take these and put them in some kind of mold, (maybe with a spritz of water between them?) and apply a lot of weight evenly again to fuse the pieces into a solid bar....  

At least that is how I think we could come close to this at home.  I have been looking for videos showing how the milling is done but all I get are rebatching vids.  Boo!


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## Dorymae (Feb 2, 2015)

I picture a wood covered slab mold, with the wood on the soap (maybe a layer of freezer paper between) with several C- clamps set evenly around. Then every 2-3 days give each clamp a half turn. Done slowly as the soap cures over several weeks I think it might give a sufficient amount of pressure, or at least as much as I could hope for!  Okay, going to write this in the notebook- lmao, I wonder if I'll ever get to it!


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## MountNView (Feb 26, 2015)

I'm so glad I found this discussion.  I stayed at a hotel this past weekend that had French Milled Soap in the bathroom.  I had not heard this term before so I had to research it.  On the internet I found huge expensive machines used to mill soap, or I found youtube videos that showed rebatching so I was very confused.  I will say that I've had to do 2 rebatches due to fragrance oils not being well mixed or something and I found the rebatch soap to be hard, creamy and long lasting.  

I hope you will post the results of your experiment with the noodle/pasta maker so we can know how to really make milled soap at a hobby level.  Sounds like a neat idea.


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