# I made soap shampoo that feels like syndet!!



## Dorymae (Feb 12, 2015)

Okay I'm very excited. I just jumped out of the shower and I really want someone else to try this. 

I made this with my cream soap base so you will need 6 oz of cream soap and a bit of btms-50 to try this. 

First melt 1g of btms-50 in 58g of water, let this cool.  Now mix it into your cream soap without beating. ( for this I put the cream soap mix in a large zipper bag and squished it for a minute of two)

That is it! Put it in a bottle and go try it!  Lathers better than commercial shampoo, no dryness or straw feeling, I did not use any additional conditioner or acidic rinse and I combed through my wet hair ( my hair is 6inches past my shoulders) with no problem at all!

I think it goes without saying that your cream soap needs to be fully rotted as you are using this on your hair and want it to be mild.


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## Susie (Feb 12, 2015)

*....searches for btms 50....grumbles about soapers who brag when they know you can't resist...*


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## Dorymae (Feb 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> *....searches for btms 50....grumbles about soapers who brag when they know you can't resist...*



You HAVE to try this Susie!  Really you do. I've tried everything to try to make something I could wash my hair with without using syndet. Every time I'd get straw head, even with a vinegar wash. I was so exited when I got out of the shower I was dancing like a lunatic in a towel! ( yes my family was laughing - I didn't care!)


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## Susie (Feb 12, 2015)

It seems I am about to learn how to make cream soap(thank you Lindy for the excellent tutorial), but I have a few questions...

1.  How long did you let the cream soap rot?
2.  What superfat was your cream soap at?
3.  Did you use kaolin or any other ingredients besides oils/water/lyes in the cream soap?
4.  Do you know of a cheap source of good BTMS 50 that I can buy small quantities of?


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## DeeAnna (Feb 12, 2015)

It's not exactly the same as BTMS-50 but "conditioning emulsifier" is a generic alternative. It's easier for me to find than the name brand stuff. 

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD


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## Dorymae (Feb 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> It seems I am about to learn how to make cream soap(thank you Lindy for the excellent tutorial), but I have a few questions...
> 
> 1.  How long did you let the cream soap rot?
> 2.  What superfat was your cream soap at?
> ...



<sigh>. Ok I confess the cream soap I used was only 3 months old! Not even near finished. In my defense, I had the bucket up on my counter with a bucket of leave in conditioner ( btms-50 and water mix) when the idea struck. I thought what the heck I'll try it. I now have a mix with my older cream soap recipe in it so I'll wash my hair with it tomorrow. ( I wonder how it will be - the recipe I think is inferior but it is 8 months old now). 

Anyway, I do add glycerin but nothing else and this in the creaming stage. 

I'll take a look for the btms-50.


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## Susie (Feb 12, 2015)

The cheapest I found for a small amount(I may be in denial that I need more than a couple of ounces) is BB, and amazingly, they are the cheapest on shipping.   But I hesitate on ordering due to their recent(ish) reputation.


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## Dorymae (Feb 12, 2015)

Yup Brambleberry was cheapest. Soapgoods might not be so bad.  Here is what I found and where they are located:


http://www.soapgoods.com/BTMS-50-Incroquat-Behenyl-p-1804.html           in GA     4oz   $8.50

http://www.theherbarie.com/BTMS-50-Incroquat-Behenyl-TMS-50.html          in SC    1oz   $7.75

http://www.brambleberry.com/Btms-50-Conditioning-Emulsifier-P3623.aspx   in WA    2oz  $4.00


Oh I forgot to say.  Superfat was 3 %


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## dosco (Feb 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> 4.  Do you know of a cheap source of good BTMS 50 that I can buy small quantities of?



According to the information on swiftcraftymonkey I suspect you could use some Crafter's Choice hair conditioner concentrate IF you add some additional glycerine as a humectant. If I understand things correctly (and it is very possible that I don't) this should get you in the ball park of BTMS-50 or -25 at a significantly lower price point ($2.95 for 2 ounces of conditioner concentrate vs. $7.95 for BTMS-50) assuming you can deal with WSP (lots of negative press here lately).

Regards-
Dave


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## Dorymae (Feb 12, 2015)

Most conditioning emulsifier waxes are btms25. I'm not sure how it would work or how much you would need. Heck I don't even know why this works for me!  I'm sure the PH hasn't changed. When I try to figure it I think it might be because of the conditioning valve but really it's a tiny amount of the whole. Something like .5% of the recipe.


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## dosco (Feb 12, 2015)

DeeAnna:
Is there a technical explanation for this?

Dorymae appears to have made something that incorporates both soap (the cream soap) and conditioner (BTMS-50) into one product.

Assuming the cream soap is high in pH, is there something about the excess stearic acid combined with the conditioning effects of BTMS-50 that results in the outcome Dorymae is experiencing?

Just wondering.

-Dave


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## Susie (Feb 12, 2015)

I don't know, but anything that adds moisture to my dry hair without being a syndet/silicone will be wonderful.


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## dosco (Feb 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> I don't know, but anything that adds moisture to my dry hair without being a syndet/silicone will be wonderful.



The info on swiftcraftymonkey about conditioner (among other things) is pretty thorough. If you haven't read it, I suggest you take a look.

-Dave


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## Susie (Feb 12, 2015)

I appreciate the suggestion!  I do read lots of her blogs.  I am still kind of hesitant about making lotion/conditioner, so I am not quite up to her level of instruction on those.  I can actually buy "all natural"(silicone free) conditioner for a reasonable price, so I don't quite have the _need_ for that yet like I do shampoo.  I react to the shampoo made by the same people for some strange reason.  

I use shampoo bars I make myself with a vinegar/water rinse before the conditioner.  But I can still use any moisture I can add to my hair.  Curly hair in the humid deep south is a hot mess most days.


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## Dahila (Feb 12, 2015)

It is an awesome emulsifier, I love it. It is good for face lotion, very conditioning and for hair also. I pay 19.99 CAD for 224 grams, plus shipping. It is very expensive. I found only one place in Canada that carry it. It is awesome, I love it


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2015)

Don't have any grand thoughts, folks. I've got some cream soap, some homemade conditioner, just plain conditioning emulsifier (the stuff that's in my homemade conditioner), and a head of hair that needs to be washed. I'll give it a go and see what I think.


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## lpstephy85 (Feb 13, 2015)

MUST MAKE CREAM SOAP!!!!!! :twisted:


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## Susie (Feb 13, 2015)

Waiting for DeeAnna's results...


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## Dorymae (Feb 13, 2015)

Me too, I can't wait to see if it is something in my cream soap recipe that just works for me or if this is a viable way (with any cream soap) to make a decent soap shampoo!  Either way I'm excited it worked for me, I have been looking and trying different things for a long time! Keeping my fingers crossed it will work you all of you too!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2015)

Okay, first trial. 

My cream soap is intended to be a shave soap recipe. It's the lard equivalent of a shave soap recipe from a 1912 article that called for 75% tallow and 25% coconut oil. Since I don't have tallow, I created a lard-stearic-CO dupe of tallow and used that instead with an added 25% CO. The lye is 20% NaOH, 80% KOH. Superfat at 3% and lye solution concentration is 25%, just like a regular LS recipe.

Stearic Acid 15.0%
Coconut Oil 76° 31.0%
Lard 54.0%

This recipe is rather more cleansing than I would normally formulate as a bathing or shampoo soap, but it's the only cream soap I have at the moment. 

I added a dab of my homemade conditioner to a small amount of this soap, mixed the two in my palms, and washed hair with the mixture. The high stearic soap turned my hair into a huge mop of dense shaving cream lather -- pretty funny. But it rinsed cleanly and easily. I did not add any extra conditioner after shampooing.

After towel drying, combing out my wet hair was about the same as combing it out after my usual shampoo routine. Hair is really fluffy now that it's dry, but the drier ends feel slick and smooth, not overly rough or dry. (For the record, my hair is fine, wavy, shoulder length -- and graying auburn, in case The Gent is wondering.) 

I can't say it's done anything super incredibly wonderful to my hair, but my hair is certainly manageable and feels nice. I was really wondering how easily the cream soap would rinse out, and it did so surprisingly easily. I think the proof of the pudding will be to use this shampoo technique for a week or two and see how my hair responds over time.

Dorymae -- I'm sorry I don't have miraculous results to report, but today's experiment IS just my rough first go at your idea. I'll keep trying.

Susie -- An idea for you to try with your LS. I've been using my diluted LS as shampoo lately. My hair doesn't seem to get quite as dry with a LS as it does with an mild shampoo bar made with 100% NaOH, so I've been wondering if the KOH is a key difference. Try just the diluted LS as your shampoo and see how that goes. Then add some of your usual conditioner to the LS, per Dorymae's idea, and see how your hair responds.


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## cmzaha (Feb 13, 2015)

Oh thanks a lot :-D Now I have to make another batch of cream soap which is not my favorite to make. Used up my 2 gallons of cream soap recently in my salt scrub I make with it. Normally I hate cream soap but it does have some redeeming factors for making some products. Now you just added another...:-D


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## Susie (Feb 13, 2015)

I can do that, DeeAnna.  I just washed my hair this morning, but give me a few days, and I will.


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## Dorymae (Feb 13, 2015)

Thank you DeeAnna you confirmed the " non straw effect" even without acidic rinse even with a shave soap!  When I read you were using a shave soap recipe I thought , oh no! However I'm glad it was no worse than your regular routine. 

I'm encouraged by your result and have been preparing a new cream soap recipe specifically with hair in mind. I'll have it done tonight but unfortunately will need to wait at least a few months to try it out.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2015)

If I were formulating cream soap for hair, at first blush, I'd drop the coconut oil down and maybe add castor. Is that the direction you're going, Dorymae? Cream soap is a high stearic/palmitic soap, so there's no getting around using a goodly % of lard, tallow, palm, high-stearic butters, or stearic acid. It was like I was washing my hair with thick whipped cream, and I'm still surprised it rinsed out so easily.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2015)

Oh, oh, oh ... I forgot to add this thought -- Cream soap often has stearic added as the "supercream" (aka superfat) to thicken the soap. I have been wondering about using cetyl alcohol or other thickening agent instead of the stearic since stearic can be unpleasantly waxy. Cetyl has a nicer skin feel in lotions, IMO, so maybe it would be nice in cream soap too. Now that this discussion is going, it raised the thought in my mind about using BTMS instead. BTMS adds thickening to lotions as well as being an emulsifier, so perhaps it could be built directly into the cream soap formulation as the supercream. ???


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2015)

"... When I read you were using a shave soap recipe I thought , oh no! However I'm glad it was no worse than your regular routine. ..."

Yes, that was my thought too, but, hey, one must make sacrifices in the interests of science! 

If you think about 75% tallow + 25% CO in light of it being a regular bar soap -- that's not too outrageous as a bath soap formulation. The main differences with this cream soap is it's made with a KOH-NaOH blend and a less concentrated lye solution than the usual bar soap. I didn't add extra stearic as supercream, but I did add extra glycerin. 

I'm stopping with the Chatty Cathy thing now.


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## Dorymae (Feb 13, 2015)

Yes, drop the coconut way down to maybe 8% I think for the main oil I'll use avocado, and yes castor at about 5%. For the stearic I was thinking of dropping it down a small amount (dropping it by 5-10%)  in the actual recipe and adding glycerin as well. For the cream ingredients I am going to try some btms 50 and glycerin. 

When it is done I'm going to first try the cream soap by itself, and then with added btms if needed.


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## Dorymae (Feb 13, 2015)

Never stop the Chatty Cathy !  It gives me ideas, and for good or ill I learn so much!


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## Dorymae (Feb 13, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> "... When I read you were using a shave soap recipe I thought , oh no! However I'm glad it was no worse than your regular routine. ..."
> 
> Yes, that was my thought too, but, hey, one must make sacrifices in the interests of science!
> 
> ...



Oh! Tallow, why didn't I think of that?  Tallow and avocado that will be the base, of course I will still have the stearic but it may help since I am reducing it. It should also give some higher conditioning properties although as soap it won't be near what the conditioning wax will offer. 

Now my head is swimming with ideas. Good thing I have my jot pad with me!:clap:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 13, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> ............For the record, my hair is fine, wavy, shoulder length -- and graying auburn, in case The Gent is wondering...............



Be still, my beating heart!

Considering the cream soap used, having it end up being similar to a normal routine is a success, isn't it?

This is very interesting - shampoo in one form or another is something interesting me (someone I know bought a bar that is at the very most 150g and paid 20€ for it!), but the whole ACV etc side of it puts me off.  Intriguing ideas are coming.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2015)

By definition, a conditioner for hair has to be "adsorbent" meaning it chemically bonds with the hair surface. BTMS or conditioning emulsifier is cationic (say cat-eye-on-ik), meaning it has a positive charge and can adsorb to hair and thus is a conditioner.

The other emusifier often used by home crafters is e-wax (brand name Polawax). E-wax and fats are not adsorbent (although there is something lurking in the back of my mind that coconut oil is able to bond with hair). Anyways, e-wax and most fats can only coat the hair shaft and provide temporary emollient and smoothing benefits.


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## Susie (Feb 13, 2015)

OK, what I am gleaning from here is a recipe something like this:

Lard/Tallow 75%
Castor Oil 5%
CO 20%(or sub out some avacado or something)?
NaOH 20%
KOH 80%
Superfat 3%

Cream phase BTMS 50 1 gm in 58g glycerin?


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## Dorymae (Feb 13, 2015)

Susie said:


> OK, what I am gleaning from here is a recipe something like this:
> 
> Lard/Tallow 75%
> Castor Oil 5%
> ...



I'm doing something like that, I'm thinking:

10% stearic
40% avocado
40% tallow
5% coconut
5% castor


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## Susie (Feb 14, 2015)

Are you using the BTMS in the cream phase, or after the soap has rotted?

Sorry to be so needy, but I have never made cream soap, so I am still wrapping my mind around it.


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## reinbeau (Feb 14, 2015)

This is very intriguing, I'm following closely.  I too have been put off by the vinegar rinse stuff.  I have shoulder length, fine, thin, blonde (well, it used to be) greying hair and I can't use anything too heavy, it flattens my hair down like a skullcap.  Can't wait to see how your experiments work out.


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## Dorymae (Feb 14, 2015)

I added the btms50 to the cream stage. When I first try it I will try it by itself. If that doesn't do, then I will mix in the btms50 and try again


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## Susie (Feb 18, 2015)

Is this the correct BTMS? 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KN9YDW4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## abc (Feb 18, 2015)

Susie said:


> Is this the correct BTMS?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KN9YDW4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



That's BTMS 25, you could try it but I think btms50 would be better. http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2012/06/question-how-to-use-btms-25-in-place-of.html?m=1

And 

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2012/09/question-whats-difference-on-my-hair.html?m=1


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## DeeAnna (Feb 18, 2015)

I haven't said much on this, but I'll add a caution:

Don't get too carried away with adding a lot of conditioning emulsifier (BTMS) to cream soap. It is relatively acidic compared to soap, and it will cause your soap to break down and separate. I can safely conclude it is NOT a good alternative to stearic acid for "supercreaming" (thickening) your cream soap. 

And the result is awful on your hair.

Don't ask me how I know this.... :roll:

***

More useful articles from Susan:
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2015/02/a-few-thoughts-about-conditioners-for.html
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2014/10/wednesday-wonderings-whats-difference.html


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## Susie (Feb 18, 2015)

It was a better price than the BTMS 50 I found on BB.  I'll keep looking, thanks!


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