# Fragrance oil absolete?



## BillOB (Dec 27, 2018)

I just started making soaps from last month inspired by wonderful fragrances giving off from all kinds of shower and bath products. I am such a scent drawn guy so I want my soaps smellings great. I have tried orange essential oil and some fragrance oil and I noticed the orange essential oil added batch fades really fast.The soap's scent almost deminished after a month on my curing tray. The one I made with FO was a black themed soap so I used char coal powder. It turned out the scent kinda changed during the process and it wasnt smelling the same as the FO at all. Now I am frustrated and discouraged so much since I started making soap all for my dreamy scent.Kinda depressed. I have read in the forum about adding kaolin clay or cornstarch to secure the scent a bit more. Does this indeed work or there is a catch? But anyway, I enjoyed the process though it was kinda messy. Maybe I could get some help here to make it better. Thans in advance.

Here is the soap I made last month anyway.


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## Hendejm (Dec 27, 2018)

In my experience, Kaolin clay does help - to a point. I’m not sure it will help with Orange essential oil though. It fades or disappears quickly regardless in CP soap. I now use it in other products like sugar scrubs, balms, oils.

Lots of EO’s do stick around....peppermint. Tea tree,  lemongrass, patchouli, lavender, bergamot.

I’ve also found that Kaolin clay can be somewhat drying on the skin initially - not so much as the soap cures.

Really pretty soaps- don’t be depressed!  Keep searching and trying new things!


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## Obsidian (Dec 27, 2018)

Very pretty soap, nice job. 

Orange eo fades, that's just how it is. Some people say the clay helps, for me it did anything so I stopped using orange.

Scents are also known to change in soap, not many will be exactly the same as the out of bottle scent. Its really important when buying scent, to read reviews to get a idea of how it changes, fades, discolors etc..

Don't let scent trouble discourage you. It can take some experimenting to find just the right scent.


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## shunt2011 (Dec 27, 2018)

Hello and Welcome.  Take a few minutes to tell us a bit about yourself in the introduction forum.

Very nice soaps.  Citrus scents fade in CP.  Like Obsidian I haven't found clays or anything else to make them stick.  Lemongrass sticks great. 

FO's can be different from OOB.  Some I didn't like in bottle I loved in soap and other products.   Some do change.  It's important to read the reviews on the sites where you purchase, also check the scent review on this forum.  Another thing to keep in mind is that we all experience scents differently sometimes.  There are some that folks here recommend and I can't stand them while other love them.  

Don't get discouraged.  You'll find plenty that you like.  Unfortunately it's not a cheap hobby, especially when you become a FO hoarder like many of us.


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## Deborah Long (Dec 27, 2018)

@BillOB   Welcome Bill!  I'm sure this forum can help!  Your soaps are just gorgeous!  Don't get discouraged, it's all a learning process.  This may help - a list of essential oils/fragrance oils and how they behave and last.  Happy Soaping!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...MFTWfchk-c7sNswuh-yaTdRf1M/edit#gid=778656389


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## Loralei (Dec 27, 2018)

@BillOB Those are gorgeous soaps, and only your first batches?? Well done! I haven't used orange oil in soap yet, but have read that people have had to anchor it with something like litsea cubeba, or use orange 5 fold (or even  10 fold).. but please don't give up, because your soaps are super beautiful!


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## BillOB (Dec 27, 2018)

Hendejm said:


> In my experience, Kaolin clay does help - to a point. I’m not sure it will help with Orange essential oil though. It fades or disappears quickly regardless in CP soap. I now use it in other products like sugar scrubs, balms, oils.
> 
> Lots of EO’s do stick around....peppermint. Tea tree,  lemongrass, patchouli, lavender, bergamot.
> 
> ...


cocan 


Loralei said:


> @BillOB Those are gorgeous soaps, and only your first batches?? Well done! I haven't used orange oil in soap yet, but have read that people have had to anchor it with something like litsea cubeba, or use orange 5 fold (or even  10 fold).. but please don't give up, because your soaps are super beautiful!


yes but I did watch lots of videos on youtube and utilized some techniques.I also have drawn drafts to consolidate my design as well.I
 ‘ll keep on trying



Hendejm said:


> In my experience, Kaolin clay does help - to a point. I’m not sure it will help with Orange essential oil though. It fades or disappears quickly regardless in CP soap. I now use it in other products like sugar scrubs, balms, oils.
> 
> Lots of EO’s do stick around....peppermint. Tea tree,  lemongrass, patchouli, lavender, bergamot.
> 
> ...


so much of kaolin clay is needed?Is there a reference I can look into? That will make a big help


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## Hendejm (Dec 27, 2018)

I use 1 tbls per pound. I’ve gone less but never more due to drying properties. It also gives the soap a creamy white color....though not as much as titanium Dioxide. 

Search this website for lots of posts about Kaolin and also Brambleberry.com has some useful posts and videos


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## BillOB (Dec 27, 2018)

Thanks for all the suggustions and After digging around the sites and other posts I want to reform my questions like these:
1.Can I overload the fo/eo percentage passing 6%.If not, whats gonna happen to my soap.
2.I have read about rebatching partially cured soap by melting it after saponification and then to add eo/fo.Would this do the job to avoid breaking down eo/fo during the saponification process.
3.For curing the soap, can I wrap them up in cling film or to store them in sealed container to lock the fragrance in soap?
Many thanks?


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## DeeAnna (Dec 27, 2018)

You need to be careful about the dosage rate -- you can't add FO or EO willy nilly because not every EO or FO is skin safe at high amounts. Fragrance oil suppliers should be providing this information about their FOs. The book Essential Oil Safety by Tisserand and Young is a reputable source of info about EOs.

Soap has a hard time holding fragrance over about 8% ppo. The fragrance is very likely to weep out of soap if you go higher, at least in my experience. You are far better off to find fragrances that are suitably strong for your nose and use them at moderate, skin safe dosages, rather than overload soap with fragrance that isn't very potent.


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## Lucinda (Dec 27, 2018)

Can I ever relate! Made my first wine soap with Merlot, and it stinks! Am hoping it will morph into something wonderful as it cures...that's what happened with the beer soap, anyway, with cedarwood, patchouli and orange eo's.
I've seen people referring to Orange 10 Fold essential oil...does anyone know if that sticks better? I use the 5 Fold, and it still fades too much.
Your soaps are so beautiful! Don't be depressed! I've got some that have lost/changed their fragrance and are ugly to boot!


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## amd (Dec 27, 2018)

Hang in there! As others said, read reviews and also make sure you are using safe % of either FO or EO. I have a soapmaking friend who uses patchouli EO to anchor fading EO's. She uses it at a small percentage, she adds .1 oz per ounce of EO and swears by it (and says you can't smell the patchouli). I tried it recently in the dead sea mud bars that I made, so I don't know yet how well it truly works.


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## Hendejm (Dec 27, 2018)

I would suggest that you don’t try to reinvent the wheel!  Stick to the many years of experience on this site and others when using fragrance. It’s a very personal preference as to what people like and what they consider overpowering. Keep in mind that many fragrances release their scent during use...meaning in the shower or hand washing. 

Don’t cover soap during curing...it needs to be in an open, well ventilated area. 

Frangrwnce and EO are expensive. Err on the side of caution and use less vs more. In my opinion if a soap or lotion is overly strong - it comes across as fake or artificial. 

Some frangrwnces smell better the longer they cure ...thus patience and restraint are required. You can do it!


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## dibbles (Dec 27, 2018)

Try a folded orange EO. I’ve used Bramble Berry 10X orange and it does stick better. Unfortunately, citrus EOs fade quickly. Litsea Cubeba is lemony smelling and sticks well for me. Lemongrass will also stick around for a long time.


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## IrishLass (Dec 27, 2018)

Welcome, BillOB! I'm very impressed with your mica veins! Beautiful job! Like you say, it's a messy process to create them, but the results are sure worth it!

Don't get too down on yourself about the scent fading. Such things happen with certain scents, but the good news is that for every scent that ends up being a fader, you can oftentimes find a version of it from another vendor that doesn't fade. At least that's been my experience anyway, for the most part.

Like the others said, orange EO is a well-known fader. The only orange EO I buy is the 10x folded from Brambleberry. I don't normally use EOs in my soap, but I have used their orange 10x folded EO to make SoapQueen's Sunshine soap (recipe found on Brambleberry), and it actually held up quite nice for me for at least 6 months before doing a slow fade if I remember rightly.

If you want a good, strong orange scent in your soap that sticks around for the long haul, try Cybilla's Orange Peel FO. Fellow forum member judymoody whose scent recommendations never steered me wrong, gave it very high marks. She said it made a great replacement for her beloved 10x folded orange eo.  


IrishLass


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## SoaperForLife (Dec 28, 2018)

If you're really wanting a natural orange scent in soap, I suggest using orange wax.  For a 5 lb. batch of gardener's soap I used a mere teaspoon and after 6 months I can still smell the orange.  You should do your own experiments with it if you are wanting to try it though.  https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/waxes/orange-wax-unprocessed.html


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## KimT2au (Dec 28, 2018)

Another thing to consider, @BillOB is that when you smell your cured soap you know what  it smelled like originally.  I you gift you soap to someone they have no idea how strong the soap smelled when the batter was poured into the mould and therefore have no point of comparison.  Add to that that if you are curing your soap somewhere in the house you go regularly then you will become accustomed to the smell where as for the recipient of the soap it will be the first time they have smelled your gorgeous product.


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## nonna oakie (Dec 29, 2018)

A few days ago, I was wanting a certain fragrance.  I went to one company - they gave NO info at all, just the name they called it.   I
need to see the discoloration, and especially the acceleration.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 29, 2018)

Yeah, that happens. Nature's Garden stands out for me as the opposite. They go out of their way to provide all kinds of info about their FOs -- recommended dosages, IRFA information, reviews, etc.


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## BillOB (Jan 1, 2019)

SoaperForLife said:


> If you're really wanting a natural orange scent in soap, I suggest using orange wax.  For a 5 lb. batch of gardener's soap I used a mere teaspoon and after 6 months I can still smell the orange.  You should do your own experiments with it if you are wanting to try it though.  https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/waxes/orange-wax-unprocessed.html


so the orange wax stay intact from lye solution.Am i correct？


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## BillOB (Jan 1, 2019)

Hendejm said:


> I would suggest that you don’t try to reinvent the wheel!  Stick to the many years of experience on this site and others when using fragrance. It’s a very personal preference as to what people like and what they consider overpowering. Keep in mind that many fragrances release their scent during use...meaning in the shower or hand washing.
> 
> Don’t cover soap during curing...it needs to be in an open, well ventilated area.
> 
> ...


definitely will i stick to what has been proven affective. Thank


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## Kamahido (Jan 1, 2019)

dibbles said:


> Try a folded orange EO. I’ve used Bramble Berry 10X orange and it does stick better. Unfortunately, citrus EOs fade quickly. Litsea Cubeba is lemony smelling and sticks well for me. Lemongrass will also stick around for a long time.



I also used Orange Essential Oil 10X at the maximum amount and it stuck wonderfully!


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## SoaperForLife (Jan 3, 2019)

BillOB said:


> so the orange wax stay intact from lye solution.Am i correct？


If your asking whether you can still smell the orange after saponification, absolutely.


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## BillOB (Jan 3, 2019)

SoaperForLife said:


> If your asking whether you can still smell the orange after saponification, absolutely.


yup the scent is what I'm looking for.thanks a lot.
Besides，I got rose wax,tubrose wax from AVAT.I have to say the the rose wax smells intense and absolutely wonderful.But the tuberose smells kind off,not exactly what I'm expecting from a tuberose flower derived product though.It kinda smells more like other parts,say stem or maybe leaves?It seems adding wax would be very promising to elevate the scent experience than EO or FO.For now its obviously cheaper than EO too.I will let you know how it turns out.

I am also wondering if HP soap would be better at retaining scent.I have never done HP soap before but I read the EO FO are added after saponification.I assume this would make EO FO intact from the process.Any suggestions?


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## Chris_S (Feb 2, 2019)

BillOB said:


> I am also wondering if HP soap would be better at retaining scent.I have never done HP soap before but I read the EO FO are added after saponification.I assume this would make EO FO intact from the process.Any suggestions?



@Dawni would be a good person to ask this she does hp most times and i think shes only really used eo


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## MGM (Feb 2, 2019)

SoaperForLife said:


> If you're really wanting a natural orange scent in soap, I suggest using orange wax.  For a 5 lb. batch of gardener's soap I used a mere teaspoon and after 6 months I can still smell the orange.  You should do your own experiments with it if you are wanting to try it though.  https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/waxes/orange-wax-unprocessed.html


Gorgeous soaps!
I haven't tried orange wax in soaps, but it does have a very powerful scent. And New Directions Aromatics sells it crazy cheap...I paid $6 for a kilo or 750 ml or something....
Also the NDA FO Orange and Ginger is very strong. it's not juicy orange, but it's very pleasant and has been perfuming my whole house for a few weeks now as my latest bars cure.

Where in Canada are you and your fantastic creations?


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## Dawni (Feb 3, 2019)

BillOB said:


> I am also wondering if HP soap would be better at retaining scent.I have never done HP soap before but I read the EO FO are added after saponification.I assume this would make EO FO intact from the process.Any suggestions?


Lovely soaps! I especially like the first one.. So classy, and mica lines are flawless. 

I have not been soaping long but I can tell you what little I've been able to observe, using EOs in HP. I've never tried FOs as @Chris_S mentioned. 

Yes, they're added after the cook and you don't need to use as much as you would in CP. As for sticking "better" I have no way of comparing, but what I can say is that mine have stuck at least until 2-4 months. I use very less, maybe 1/2 the recommended amount for CP in the calcs, for my HP soaps.

The soap I have that's been curing longest (since mid September) is scented with a blend of geranium, elemi, and I think a lil Rosemary, and today I can tell you the bars still smell of geranium. This batch had fuller's earth instead of kaolin clay.

Another bar from September had lemon, Rosemary and tea tree, but since I used neem oil it pretty much masks most of it except for a hint of tea tree now. This also had fuller's earth.

I have some that are younger, since November, and those have Cedarwood and spearmint among other things, and a faint minty smell is still there. No fuller's earth in this batch though.

I remember neither smelled exactly like this when freshly made so EOs do kind of morph too I guess and also some others in the blend might have faded to leave those to stand out.

I can't tell you yet how they'll be at the 6mos mark, sorry, but I suspect more fading lol I can update in two months if you're interested.

Also, I noticed that none of these scents stick to my skin after the shower, unlike some soaps that leave a hint on you afterwards. Could be the amount I used or could be that they just don't.


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## BillOB (Feb 11, 2019)

MGM said:


> Gorgeous soaps!
> I haven't tried orange wax in soaps, but it does have a very powerful scent. And New Directions Aromatics sells it crazy cheap...I paid $6 for a kilo or 750 ml or something....
> Also the NDA FO Orange and Ginger is very strong. it's not juicy orange, but it's very pleasant and has been perfuming my whole house for a few weeks now as my latest bars cure.
> 
> Where in Canada are you and your fantastic creations?


I'm in vancouver as to say



Dawni said:


> Lovely soaps! I especially like the first one.. So classy, and mica lines are flawless.
> 
> I have not been soaping long but I can tell you what little I've been able to observe, using EOs in HP. I've never tried FOs as @Chris_S mentioned.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info.
I'm working on my first HP soap with Rose Wax from AVAT.And yes the rose scent really came out gorgeous add the wax at dilution phase since I am making a translucent batch. I only use 3% rose wax and it came out strong and very nice

Got another CP soap done.Hopefully that inspires.The color scheme came from the greek hotspot with blue topped houses situated along the bay. Gold mica mimics the shimmering sunset relected from the water.


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