# Soap won't gel all the way



## Marru (Apr 3, 2016)

Hi! I have a problem with gel phase and I can’t seem to find a reason. I have a high olive oil % CP soap recipe and I use a 33% lye concentration. I always check the temperatures and mix the lye and water at around 110-120°F. I use a wooden loaf mold with a lid and silicone liners, + I've now tried covering it with blankets as well to keep it even warmer.
The soap heats up nice and gels, but the gel never reaches the edges. So the edges are always a little (well, sometimes A LOT) lighter than the inside. It doesn’t really look like a partial gel. Have you experienced something like that and do you have any ideas why the edges wouldn’t gel? 

The recipe is 72% olive oil, 22% coconut oil, 3% cocoa butter and 3% shea butter. 

Thank you so much in advance!


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 3, 2016)

Marru said:


> Hi! I have a problem with gel phase and I can’t seem to find a reason. I have a high olive oil % CP soap recipe and I use a 33% lye concentration. I always check the temperatures and mix the lye and water at around 110-120°F. I use a wooden loaf mold with a lid and silicone liners, + I've now tried covering it with blankets as well to keep it even warmer.
> The soap heats up nice and gels, but the gel never reaches the edges. So the edges are always a little (well, sometimes A LOT) lighter than the inside. It doesn’t really look like a partial gel. Have you experienced something like that and do you have any ideas why the edges wouldn’t gel?
> 
> The recipe is 72% olive oil, 22% coconut oil, 3% cocoa butter and 3% shea butter.
> ...



Try a 30% lye concentration.


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## lsg (Apr 3, 2016)

Have you tried the cp/op method?

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=32186


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## Marru (Apr 3, 2016)

lsg said:


> Have you tried the cp/op method?
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=32186



I haven't tried CPOP yet because I'm just trying to figure out why this happens...because I insulate well and the centre gets really hot. I searched online and didn't find much help but I did found a picture: http://edgewatersoaps.blogspot.com.ee/2011/03/scientific-soap-making-part-iii.html , my soaps sometimes look just like that, the edges are so much lighter.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 3, 2016)

Marru said:


> I haven't tried CPOP yet because I'm just trying to figure out why this happens...because I insulate well and the centre gets really hot. I searched online and didn't find much help but I did found a picture: http://edgewatersoaps.blogspot.com.ee/2011/03/scientific-soap-making-part-iii.html , my soaps sometimes look just like that, the edges are so much lighter.



Actually I kind of just told you why it happens. It's because of your lye concentration.

To elaborate, at 33% lye concentration the melting (gel) point of the soap is 20 degrees higher or more than at 25% lye concentration. A handcrafter-size batch of soap is never going to fully gel unless you pour it very hot, even with insulation. At 33% you need to CPOP.

Raise the lye concentration a little more and you won't even get the partial gel in the middle. Lower it and you have a shot at full gel with insulation. I figured that would be the smaller and simpler change to your procedure, but alternatively you could CPOP if you like.


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## penelopejane (Apr 3, 2016)

I guess I use the CPOP method as well as the lye concentration method because I like to wrap my soap and keep it safe until it saponifies.  I guess it's a ritual thing. 

I have never had a problem with partial gel with any recipe since I put it in the oven at 100* F turn it off and let it cool. I always had a problem before I did that. It is about getting the ingredients to the right spot to saponify. Either a little less water or a little more warmth or both. Whatever works for your recipe and for you.


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## SuzieOz (Apr 3, 2016)

Do you live in a cold climate Marru? I do, and even though I use a water discount my soaps tend to leave a lighter edge also. I don't CPOP because I use a silicone mould (and I don't think I can put it in an oven, but not 100% sure about that yet).

So, I'm going to have to find a way to keep my soap warmer. I've heard of people using a warming mat to sit their soap on, as well as insulating with towels/blankets etc. This could help. I've even thought about putting my soap to bed (literally) in the spare room with the electric blanket on! (And turn it off once the soap is in there).

Also, as people have said, soap with your batter very warm. I know this doesn't help much when you want to do swirls though, as it tends to trace faster when warm.  Just some thoughts anyway.


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## Swampy (Apr 3, 2016)

Read this http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/education/chemistry/to-gel-or-not-to-gel.aspx
The general idea is that the higher your water % is in your recipe the lower the temperature is needed  to achieve gel phase.
Recipes with a very low water % will never achieve gel because the temp needed is far too high so adding a bit more water and soaping at higher temps can help.
I place all my soap in the oven on low for a hour and always achieve full gel phase with a 36% water to oil ratio.


SuzieOz said:


> Do you live in a cold climate Marru? I do, and even though I use a water discount my soaps tend to leave a lighter edge also. I don't CPOP because I use a silicone mould (and I don't think I can put it in an oven, but not 100% sure about that yet).
> 
> So, I'm going to have to find a way to keep my soap warmer. I've heard of people using a warming mat to sit their soap on, as well as insulating with towels/blankets etc. This could help. I've even thought about putting my soap to bed (literally) in the spare room with the electric blanket on! (And turn it off once the soap is in there).
> 
> Also, as people have said, soap with your batter very warm. I know this doesn't help much when you want to do swirls though, as it tends to trace faster when warm.  Just some thoughts anyway.



Silicon molds are made to go in the oven at high temps.You only need your oven on low for about an hour for the gel phase.I use my perspex mold in the oven and its fine.


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## SuzieOz (Apr 3, 2016)

Swampy said:


> Silicon molds are made to go in the oven at high temps.You only need your oven on low for about an hour for the gel phase.I use my perspex mold in the oven and its fine.



Ok, yes I wasn't sure about the particular mould I'm using as it is sold just for making soap, not cooking. I can ask the supplier though.

I think I have the water ratio thing the wrong way round then do I? Dear me, I'm a bit confused. 

You'd better not take too much notice of me Marru


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## dillsandwitch (Apr 3, 2016)

SuzieOz said:


> Ok, yes I wasn't sure about the particular mould I'm using as it is sold just for making soap, not cooking. I can ask the supplier though.
> 
> I think I have the water ratio thing the wrong way round then do I? Dear me, I'm a bit confused.
> 
> You'd better not take too much notice of me Marru




Most silicone molds can withstand the heat needed to CPOP. My oven's lowest temp is 75c and my moulds hold up fine under the heat. Even the ones I made using roofing silicone are fine under that heat.

As for the water ratio thing I'm not exactly sure about how all that works as Ive never really paid that much attention to it but I find using 33% lye concentration in soapcalc works fine for me to CPOP and get full gel.


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## SuzieOz (Apr 3, 2016)

Ok great, thanks dills, I will try it


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

Thank you everyone for your help! I found the article by Kevin Dunn really helpful, I think I understand the process a lot better now. So I think I have three options now to try: 1) try 30% lye concentration, 2) CPOP with the recipe I have now, 3) I could also use even less water and avoid gel. 

I think I will try 30% lye concentration first and see how it goes. Though I know that with my recipe and the % of olive oil, less water would probably be a little better. So maybe CPOP would be better...Oh, it's hard! I don't have an oven in my soaping room, is it safe to use just my kitchen oven?


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## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> So maybe CPOP would be better...Oh, it's hard! I don't have an oven in my soaping room, is it safe to use just my kitchen oven?



Yes it is safe to use your kitchen oven.  I wrap my soap in a blanket just incase something unforeseen happened.  

You don't have to heat the soap much.  The oven only has to go to 100*F (37*F) which is not very hot.  Turn the oven off as soon as you put the wrapped soap in and leave it closed overnight.


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Yes it is safe to use your kitchen oven.  I wrap my soap in a blanket just incase something unforeseen happened.
> 
> You don't have to heat the soap much.  The oven only has to go to 100*F (37*F) which is not very hot.  Turn the oven off as soon as you put the wrapped soap in and leave it closed overnight.



Thanks! Do you think if it would be OK if I just use my wooden mold with silicone liners and a lid in the oven? Or without the lid? I don't know why, but I'm really nervous about putting it in the oven :smile: I will try it tonight and post an update on how it went.


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## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> Thanks! Do you think if it would be OK if I just use my wooden mold with silicone liners and a lid in the oven? Or without the lid? I don't know why, but I'm really nervous about putting it in the oven :smile: I will try it tonight and post an update on how it went.



The reason I cover and wrap it is to keep the heat even and to avoid spills.
Covering the mold will help avoid ash.
The heat you are going to use is only just hand warm.  It isn't hot.  It's just going to keep the soap evenly snug for a few hours.  I get the oven just on warm body temperature really and use the blanket to keep the heat in.

It will be fine.


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> The reason I cover and wrap it is to keep the heat even and to avoid spills.
> Covering the mold will help avoid ash.



Thanks! 

Yesterday I made soap and tried lowering the lye concentration by just 1% to see if it made any difference. I just cut it now and the centre of the soap is slightly lighter color and it doesn't look as bad as the same soap with 33% lye concentrate. Edges are still visibly lighter though. But I'm really impressed with the texture/consistency of the soap! I can see a small difference, the soap is a little bit siklier and creamier. I love it! I hope that today I will finally get the gel problem fixed as well. Fingers crossed!


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## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yesterday I made soap and tried lowering the lye concentration by just 1% to see if it made any difference. I just cut it now and the centre of the soap is slightly lighter color and it doesn't look as bad as the same soap with 33% lye concentrate. Edges are still visibly lighter though. But I'm really impressed with the texture/consistency of the soap! I can see a small difference, the soap is a little bit siklier and creamier. I love it! I hope that today I will finally get the gel problem fixed as well. Fingers crossed!



Hi Marru, 

Post photos so someone can identify it for you  The lighter edges still sounds like a gel problem.


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## Swampy (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yesterday I made soap and tried lowering the lye concentration by just 1% to see if it made any difference. I just cut it now and the centre of the soap is slightly lighter color and it doesn't look as bad as the same soap with 33% lye concentrate. Edges are still visibly lighter though. But I'm really impressed with the texture/consistency of the soap! I can see a small difference, the soap is a little bit siklier and creamier. I love it! I hope that today I will finally get the gel problem fixed as well. Fingers crossed!



Marru Honestly just try the oven.It is all I do now.I have used my plain wood mold with no silicon,A cheap silicon mold,my new hybrid half wood half polycarbonate mold all with excellent results.Turn the oven to low,wrap your mold in something,maybe a towel.pop it in.Turn off the oven and leave it in for a few hours.Easy.Just remember to use your normal water amount when doing this though as you need that water for the gel phase in the oven.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Yesterday I made soap and tried lowering the lye concentration by just 1% to see if it made any difference. I just cut it now and the centre of the soap is slightly lighter color and it doesn't look as bad as the same soap with 33% lye concentrate. Edges are still visibly lighter though. But I'm really impressed with the texture/consistency of the soap! I can see a small difference, the soap is a little bit siklier and creamier. I love it! I hope that today I will finally get the gel problem fixed as well. Fingers crossed!



With 32% lye you would still need the oven. Most of those photos you see of fully gelled soaps that were wrapped in blankets are full water batches, which is 27-28% lye concentration. At 30% you would want to make sure you soap warm and insulate the mold to get full gel. If you want to use more concentrated lye than that, then use the oven.


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

Thank you very much! I will try both the oven process and adding more water and see how it goes. 
This is a picture of my soaps, on the left is 32% and on the right 33% lye concentration.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 4, 2016)

I don't think that looks like partial gel, now that you've shared a photo. Partial gel usually causes a round or oval bullseye shape, not a "rind" like a wrapper on a candy bar. 

Do you see the darker areas of these soap bars becoming lighter as the days go by? If so, the lighter rind is due moisture differences -- the outer layer of soap is dryer than the inner. You should see the rest of the bar lighten as the cut faces dry further. At least that has been my experience when I see this specific type of color pattern.


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> I don't think that looks like partial gel, now that you've shared a photo. Partial gel usually causes a round or oval bullseye shape, not a "rind" like a wrapper on a candy bar.
> 
> Do you see the darker areas of these soap bars becoming lighter as the days go by? If so, the lighter rind is due moisture differences -- the outer layer of soap is dryer than the inner. You should see the rest of the bar lighten as the cut faces dry further. At least that has been my experience when I see this specific type of color pattern.


That's what I thought, it doesn't really look like a classical partial gel.
Unfortunately it stays pretty much the same. I will post a photo of a cured soap later.


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> That's what I thought, it doesn't really look like a classical partial gel.
> Unfortunately it stays pretty much the same. I will post a photo of a cured soap later.



So these soaps have fully cured. What do you think the issue might be? I am so confused now. 
I remember one time when I used another mold, the soap overheated because I had tiny bubbles all over the soap, but then I still had the same problem of the edges being lighter.


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## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> So these soaps have fully cured. What do you think the issue might be? I am so confused now.
> I remember one time when I used another mold, the soap overheated because I had tiny bubbles all over the soap, but then I still had the same problem of the edges being lighter.



What sort of mold did you use? This time and when you had bubbles all over the soap?


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## DeeAnna (Apr 4, 2016)

"...wooden loaf mold with a lid and silicone liners..."

I see that the top of the soap doesn't show the rind, so I'm guessing now the problem is related to something going on between your soap and the liner. Have you made soap without the silicone liner and if so do you see the rind effect? 

Otherwise, I'm out of ideas -- I'm a little puzzled too, PenelopeJane.


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> "...wooden loaf mold with a lid and silicone liners..."
> 
> I see that the top of the soap doesn't show the rind, so I'm guessing now the problem is related to something going on between your soap and the liner. Have you made soap without the silicone liner and if so do you see the rind effect?
> 
> Otherwise, I'm out of ideas -- I'm a little puzzled too, PenelopeJane.



Yes a wooden mold with silicone liners. But before I got the wooden mold I was using a regular baking silicone mold and had the exact same issue. And the overheating occured with that other mold. I have some soaps that are 4-5 months old and by this time the color evens out a little bit. 
Also, I have a few batches that didn't have such a big contrast between the edges and the centre. But I've changed the recipe just a little bit over the past few months, so I have no clue what's causing this. I'm starting to think it's just something with my recipe. Which sucks, because I really like the way this soap feels.

Edit: I've only tried lining my wooden mold with baking paper once, but it's not really working, it gets wet and we don't have freezer paper here. So maybe it could be the silicone as well...


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> With 32% lye you would still need the oven. Most of those photos you see of fully gelled soaps that were wrapped in blankets are full water batches, which is 27-28% lye concentration. At 30% you would want to make sure you soap warm and insulate the mold to get full gel. If you want to use more concentrated lye than that, then use the oven.




Yes, this makes sense. But do you think that I have the partial gel issue? If you can tell from the pictures I posted. I'm starting to doubt it a little...


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> Yes, this makes sense. But do you think that I have the partial gel issue? If you can tell from the pictures I posted. I'm starting to doubt it a little...



You can doubt it a lot. Doesn't look like partial gel.


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## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2016)

Personally I wouldn't change your recipe (since it looks ok) until you sort this problem out. Try something different with trace or curing and see how it goes. 

So sorry I can't be more helpful but if the rind lessens over time it could be something to do with the way it cures.


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## Marru (Apr 4, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Personally I wouldn't change your recipe (since it looks ok) until you sort this problem out. Try something different with trace or curing and see how it goes.
> 
> So sorry I can't be more helpful but if the rind lessens over time it could be something to do with the way it cures.



Thank you for your help!  I have an idea about what might be wrong so I will start experimenting and hopefully I'll be able to tell what's wrong soon!


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## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2016)

Marru said:


> Thank you for your help!  I have an idea about what might be wrong so I will start experimenting and hopefully I'll be able to tell what's wrong soon!




Please let us know because it would be good to know how you solve it! Other than soap gremlins! [emoji2]


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