# FLEAS!!  Please help me and the little doggie monsters



## not_ally (Jul 1, 2015)

Hi guys, 

After dithering for too long about whether the costs (health-wise, not money-wise) of commercial flea treatments outweighed the  benefits, the piper has arrived demanding payment.  Ie; my dogs (Fred and Patsy) and I are all scratching like crazy.  I guess I am going to have to break down and get the commercial flea treatments for them and use human insect deterrent stuff for me, but in the meantime and as well I want to be able to treat us and the furniture (sofa, bedding, dog beds) with something that will deter the little bastards from long-term residence/friendly visits.

I am making up an MP (so I can use it right away) dog flea soap from David Fisher's Candle and Soap site.  Link, in case anyone is interested: 

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soaprecipes/a/dogsoaprecipes.htm
  I would also like to use a flea-repellent spray containing flea repellent essential oils (of the non-dog toxic/relatively skin friendly ones I have cedarwood, eucalyptus, lavender, peppermint in-house) on the furniture/dog beds/bedding after washing, but am concerned about the dilution rate for the dogs.  

Ie; it will not be applied directly, just to fabrics, but even so am concerned about the smell making them ill, not to mention skin contact and licking aspects.

Does anyone have any experience/insight/guidance/thoughts to offer on this problem?


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## dixiedragon (Jul 1, 2015)

Comfortis. 

Vacuum. If it's a vacuum bag, put it in the freezer until trash day, or burn it.

You may need to bomb your house.

I will use natural remedies on myself, b/c I can observe if they have any negative affects on me. I do not use natural remedies on my pets unless they have been well tested.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 1, 2015)

IMO, it's better to just jump right to the proven chemical stuff, then you can use gentler treatments as maintenance - in your case, just go ahead and flea bomb it, then maintain using Comfortis, diotemaceous earth, etc.

I know of what I speak - I live in humid Alabama and have 7 dogs and 3 cats. We have not had a flea infestation in YEARS b/c we regularly dose the dogs - we used Frontline for years, but it is no longer affective. Right now we use Comfortis on the dogs. We don't anything on the cats. 

Bummer is that Frontline worked on ticks, but Comfortis does not.


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## not_ally (Jul 1, 2015)

Thanks a lot, Dixie.  I hate the idea of bombing, but I hate the idea of all of us getting bitten left and right even more.  I actually ordered some Frontline for Fred months ago when he was scratching a lot (med. size dog level of dosage, Patsy is a midge)  but then it subsided and I never used it.  When you say it is no longer effective for fleas, is it b/c your dogs are immune to it after long-term use or it no longer works on dogs generally, eg, like antibiotic resistance?  Thanks again for taking the time to answer.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 1, 2015)

In my area (I have no idea how widespread this is) fleas have become very resistant to Frontline and most vets no longer recommend it. 

I like Comfortis b/c it is a tasty tablet vs the skin application. BTW, if you have multiple dogs, you may need to separate them when you give the Comfortis b/c they may try to steal a double dose. One of our dogs actually likes to roll on hers (because dogs are gross), so we have to separate her so her dose doesn't get stolen while she is trying to roll on it.


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## not_ally (Jul 1, 2015)

OK, Comfortis sounds perfect.  One of the reasons I didn't want to use Frontline (actually, have to check that this is the one I have, I am suddenly uncertain) is that it said you had to apply it and then wait for 24 hours before touching the dogs, that would be v. hard for us to manage.  

My dogs are definitely all about the tasty, if it tastes good I don't think there will be much rolling time involved!  Thanks again for the good news.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 1, 2015)

The Confortis works really well, without it we get over run with fleas here at the beach. Actually I use it for the cats and the dog still gets frontline or advantage because a) it works on him and b) he gets a lotta baths.  The cats have to use Confortis - Advantage gave Nimbus cat a bald spot on his back!!  Confortis is not cheap, but the relief is well worth it. From years of working at the kennel and vets I have learned to act quickly and with great discrimination against fleas.


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## not_ally (Jul 1, 2015)

Confortis it is.  So glad little Max is flea free.  I will make sure Fred and Pats are flea free before any play dates!


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## snappyllama (Jul 1, 2015)

We used to use frontline when we lived in the south, and it worked really well. We didn't avoid touching our co-dependent collie, Ms. Beadie, except on the spot between her shoulder blades where it was applied.  She would have had a nervous breakdown without her hourly belly rub.


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## Susie (Jul 1, 2015)

I am going to vote with the "no mercy" folks.  Ask your vet what works in your area, then use it faithfully.  Put a reminder on every calendar you own when to give them another dose.  Then bomb the house the day you treat the dogs, then again 1 week later to kill the ones that hatched out.  You should not need to re-bomb again unless you miss a dose on the dogs.  Here in the deep south, it is always flea and tick season, so we never get to skip doses, YMMV.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 1, 2015)

I vote with the others about having no mercy on ticks and fleas. I dose only my dogs with flea meds and let the cats enjoy the "herd immunity" provided by the pups. Frontline is still effective for me, but I switched to NexGard (afoxolaner) chewable tablets this summer to see how they work. Looks like it's as effective as Frontline. The dogs love the taste of the tablets, so I watch like a hawk to see each one gets the proper dose. Everyone, human and canine, also likes not having that oily (and apparently itchy) spot on their fur.


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## Obsidian (Jul 1, 2015)

I've used a tablet from Dr. fosters with really good results. I can't remember the brand but they were so much better then the nasty stuff you stick on the skin. I'll never forget when frontline made all the hair fall out on the cats back, he was bald for weeks.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 1, 2015)

I am with the llama - when we used Frontline (on both cats and dogs) we just had to avoid touching the greasy spot - not the whole animal. Also, you are not supposed to bath the dog 48 hours before or after using it, b/c it is distributed through the natural coat oils. We don't use anything on our cats, b/c they go out rarely, so by treating the dogs the cats are protected.


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## nsmar4211 (Jul 1, 2015)

Actually, my vet told me ANY time you bathe after Frontline you wash it off (eeek) unless you use a soapless shampoo (don't ask... I have no idea). Reminds me, I need to go get more Comfortis....


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## not_ally (Jul 1, 2015)

I can't take it, we are all itching like crazy.  I am going to go to Cosco right now and get Frontline or the like, it looks like Comfortis/Nexgard would have to come from the vet or be ordered on line.  I am going to take everyone's advice and go Terminator on those little *^&%'s butts RIGHT NOW.  Teach them to torture me and my babies.  I will apply it when I get back and go from there tomorrow with the bombs and if the other stuff does not seem to be working over the next couple of days I will order Comfortis.

Thanks to all for their good advice, it was very helpful.  Left to my own devices I probably would have faffed around for several more days fitfully and frustratedly trying natural stuff.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 1, 2015)




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## misera (Jul 29, 2015)

not_ally said:


> I can't take it, we are all itching like crazy.  I am going to go to Cosco right now and get Frontline or the like, it looks like Comfortis/Nexgard would have to come from the vet or be ordered on line.  I am going to take everyone's advice and go Terminator on those little *^&%'s butts RIGHT NOW.  Teach them to torture me and my babies.  I will apply it when I get back and go from there tomorrow with the bombs and if the other stuff does not seem to be working over the next couple of days I will order Comfortis.
> 
> Thanks to all for their good advice, it was very helpful.  Left to my own devices I probably would have faffed around for several more days fitfully and frustratedly trying natural stuff.



Did you get rid of your problem? Natural way for fleas never fully worked for me but it did help soothe her skin. Things I had to do when my dog had a continual infestation b/c apparently Frontline Plus didn't work where I lived in VA:

1. Flea comb the crap out of dog and manually remove as many as possible. Do this with a bucket or bowl of soapy water next to you. Every swipe, dunk the comb in the water so that the caught fleas would not jump off into your home and disappear to bite you later. 
2. Wash dog with regular dog shampoo. Then again with oatmeal shampoo and mix in Neem oil. Then after toweling off, rub neem oil into fur.
3. Give dog a capstar or generic nitenpyram. If dog already has hotspots, put a cone on dog to prevent them from making wounds worse.
4. Put all linens in washing machine and hot wash.
5. If you have carpet, salt the carpet.
6. Vaccuum everything. This will suck up fleas/eggs and cause fleas to emerge from eggs.
7. Resalt.
8. Clean all of house and all your laundry.
9. Brush dog with flea comb and manually remove fleas each day.
10. Vacuum again and resalt. Salt will help dehydrate them suckers.
11. Rewash dog again and reneem oil if needed. Give another capstar/nitenpyram. I buy the 12 pack and give once a day for 3 days straight. If you don't need to rewash dog, it is ok to put topical ointment on dog now 3 days after washing. Dog needs dog oils in fur before you reapply topical ointment or else it's not as effective. It also helps them not have as bad as a reaction to the topical ointment since their skin has a bit of oil on it as protection. I use k9 advantix ii. It's strong stuff but after battling full apartment infestation of fleas I couldn't take it anymore.

Neem oil has a peanuty smell to it and may make your dog's fur look oily, but just brush him/her and it'll go away in a couple days if you put too much on.
Each time you vacuum, make sure you empty the canister and take out the trash plus rinse the canister out. And resalt. It takes a couple weeks to get all the cycles of the fleas. Bombing would be faster but in case you can't, salting the carpet is a slower alternative. Oh and diatomaceous earth too but make sure to not leave the DE anywhere your kids or dogs might get to (eat).


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## not_ally (Jul 29, 2015)

Thanks, Misera, the frontline/house cleaning steps seemed to work.  Although it has been almost exactly a month, and the fleas are starting to bite again, I can see them on the pup's stomachs.  Amazing how resilient/persistent the fleas are, like cockroaches they will probably be around after the apocalypse.  I am going to administer a dose of Nitenpryam today - ordered it back when I first posted - and give the puppies the next round of Frontline tomorrow.

ETA:  Man, it is hard to give dogs pills, even with the help of hot dogs.  I have little tiny fingers, but I feel like they are logs doing it.  Thank goodness this is the last time until next month.

ETA again:  W/in 30 ms of giving Fred the Nitenpyram he started acting hyper, panting, scratching like mad, generally being really weird - hanging out in the bedroom by himself, going under the bed, ignoring his dinner.  I was pretty freaked out, but apparently stuff like this does happen w/Nitenpyram/Capstar (I googled).  It subsided w/in an hour (and then he ate his dinner and Patsy's as well , but it was pretty scary while it was happening.  He is fine now, and Patsy (little 6 lb midge, Fred weighs about 30) was fine from the start.  Just an FYI if you ever use it and experience these side effects.


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## TeresaT (Jul 29, 2015)

The fleas are crazy here, too.  I've tried the natural way, with no luck.  Next week the house is getting bombed.  I'll have to take a few days off from work to deal with it, but I am tired of picking fleas off of the dogs and getting bitten myself.  Grrrrrr.


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## not_ally (Jul 29, 2015)

Teresa, I really wanted to avoid using the chemicals w/the dogs, but (IMO) it was sort of better all round than the flea madness.  

Hm, I wonder what you are going to be doing w/that time off?


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## misera (Jul 31, 2015)

not_ally said:


> Thanks, Misera, the frontline/house cleaning steps seemed to work.  Although it has been almost exactly a month, and the fleas are starting to bite again, I can see them on the pup's stomachs.  Amazing how resilient/persistent the fleas are, like cockroaches they will probably be around after the apocalypse.  I am going to administer a dose of Nitenpryam today - ordered it back when I first posted - and give the puppies the next round of Frontline tomorrow.
> 
> ETA:  Man, it is hard to give dogs pills, even with the help of hot dogs.  I have little tiny fingers, but I feel like they are logs doing it.  Thank goodness this is the last time until next month.
> 
> ETA again:  W/in 30 ms of giving Fred the Nitenpyram he started acting hyper, panting, scratching like mad, generally being really weird - hanging out in the bedroom by himself, going under the bed, ignoring his dinner.  I was pretty freaked out, but apparently stuff like this does happen w/Nitenpyram/Capstar (I googled).  It subsided w/in an hour (and then he ate his dinner and Patsy's as well , but it was pretty scary while it was happening.  He is fine now, and Patsy (little 6 lb midge, Fred weighs about 30) was fine from the start.  Just an FYI if you ever use it and experience these side effects.



Haha yes sorry I forgot to tell you about that. My dog would get hyper too but shes a bit more pudgy now (27 pound corgi) and maybe gotten more used to the Nitenpyram. I give her one whenever we come back from traveling that involves a lot of outdoor/other dog play. She's ridiculously sensitive to flea bites. So for the nitenpyram capsules that are chicken flavored, I just open up the capsule and dump the powder in her food and she eats it up  The capstar blob that the vet gave her once she ate it like a treat lol.


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## Jstar (Jul 31, 2015)

Did you try the DE? Starts working within 4 hrs...

See my post here


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## not_ally (Jul 31, 2015)

Jstar, I have to order some of the DE.  I had a couple of huge bags of it around, gave it people to address immediate issues, never got it back, blah blah.  But it is one of those v. useful/standby things, thank you, I will get some more right now.


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## Dahila (Jul 31, 2015)

Guys De is pretty effective but you staying in house and animals will inhale the DE which can cause lung damage.  The only way you can do it, powder all house for at least 48 hours and move out with animals, then put a mask on you and vacuum clean like hell all that out.  It is silica does not matter what grade it is food grade or pool grade it is not good to inhale.


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## abc (Jul 31, 2015)

Frontline is just not effective against fleas anymore. The fleas seem to be immune to it here. I would switch to Advantage maybe Trifecta.


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## Jstar (Jul 31, 2015)

I've used it for years and have no problems with it. the crystalline form is what causes problems. The key is to get it down into the fibers of carpets etc. I use a mask when applying and when I vacuum, but there is no reason to leave the house for 48 hrs.  

I'd much prefer DE over chemical laden pesticides that are known to cause all sorts of immediate toxic poisonings.

================
From Wiki

Inhalation of _crystalline_ silica is harmful to the lungs, causing  silicosis.  _Amorphous_ silica is considered to have low toxicity, but * prolonged *inhalation causes changes to the lungs.[22]  Diatomaceous earth is mostly amorphous silica, but contains some crystalline silica,  especially in the saltwater forms.[23]  In a study of workers, those exposed to natural DE for over 5 years had  no significant lung changes, while 40% of those exposed to the calcined  form had developed pneumoconiosis.[24]  Today's common D.E. formulations are safer to use as they are  predominantly made up of amorphous silica and contain little or no  crystalline silica.[


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## not_ally (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks, Dahila.  Good heads-up/reminder, I know you'd said this before but I had forgotten.


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## not_ally (Jul 31, 2015)

J, I have wood floors, so would probably just sprinkle all around the edges.  There would be less dispersed, but I guess more on the sides, and no way to get it down into anything fibrous.  This is sounding not so good to me, just from when the dogs chase each each, get dust flying around.  I guess i could get a good dusting down everywhere, leave w/the muppets for a while, then come back and give the place a good sweeping + mopping w/them outside.


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## Jstar (Jul 31, 2015)

Yes you could do that. Also if your fur babies go outside, and the ground is dry, you can dust the ground where they roam...kill the pests outside and they wont come inside


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## TeresaT (Jul 31, 2015)

Tomorrow I'm going to the vet to pick up some Comfortis.  The topical I got from them two weeks ago didn't work.  The DE didn't work and the generic frontline from Walmart didn't work.  I'm tired of vacuuming.  I'm tired of washing sheets every other day, too.  All of the blankets and rugs are going to the laundromat and while I'm out, I'll dump DE on every surface again.  I really don't want to bomb the place (even though I said I was going to).  I'm going to spray the yard, which I haven't done yet, and the outside of the house and both decks/porches.  I have my own sprayer and two containers of Demon WP that I bought online several years ago.  I'll make a double-strength batch for outside.  That is probably the biggest problem right there.  The dogs let themselves out whenever they want, so if I don't treat the yard, it doesn't make sense treating the house and the dogs.  THAT piece of genius finally slapped me in the face today.


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## not_ally (Jul 31, 2015)

Teresa, you have my heart-felt sympathy, you know you do.  I know you are not supposed to want to eradicate entire species, but fleas, really?


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## TeresaT (Jul 31, 2015)

I was telling a friend at work that I would much rather have ticks than fleas.  You find the tick.  You remove the tick. You flush the tick down the toilet.  You're done.  End of story.  Fleas?  Bane of my existence right now.  Yes, we should rid the world of fleas (and roaches and mosquitoes).  I do not see how they contribute any good in the world.


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## not_ally (Jul 31, 2015)

I remember stumbing across an old collection of columns some years ago written from the perspective of two friends, a cockroach and a cat. Archie (the cockroach) would write pithy, free verse poems by flinging his body on the typewriter keys of the journalist after the office had closed, they had to be free verse b/c he could not manage caps and other punctuation for obvious reasons   They were really good and funny, I had a new perspective about roaches after that.  But it did not last   See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archy_and_Mehitabel


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## Obsidian (Jul 31, 2015)

Ever seen the movie Joe's apartment?


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## TeresaT (Jul 31, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> Ever seen the movie Joe's apartment?



About 3 minutes of it.  Too gross!


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## snappyllama (Aug 1, 2015)

Not_ally, the trick to getting dogs to swallow pills is to wrap them in cheese. Feed a couple of same size cheese bits, acting like it is the best treat session ever... Just keep em coming and slip the pill one in the middle. They'll almost always just hover them down. My niece is a vet tech and swears this works with just about any dog... Treat feeding frenzy.


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## not_ally (Aug 1, 2015)

Snappy, I will remember this, despite my flawed memory, and bless you if it works.  I really do hate trying to force pills down their throats, they hate it so much.


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## tbeck3579 (Aug 2, 2015)

When I lived in the city with a fenced yard I could spray the house and yard, wash the dogs and their beds; problem solved.  Living in the country makes flea control impossible.  About 4 or 5 years ago the fleas got so bad I went to the vet.  He gave them 1 shot and every flea fell off dead -- it is almost immediate.  I haven't had a problem with fleas since that time and I DO NOT use a monthly treatment.  I recognize there are health risks for the dogs, but the flip side is the health risks with fleas.  I can't believe it == 1 injection == but that stuff works.  A friend who runs a Kennel told me about it.


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## tbeck3579 (Aug 2, 2015)

snappyllama said:


> Not_ally, the trick to getting dogs to swallow pills is to wrap them in cheese. Feed a couple of same size cheese bits, acting like it is the best treat session ever... Just keep em coming and slip the pill one in the middle. They'll almost always just hover them down. My niece is a vet tech and swears this works with just about any dog... Treat feeding frenzy.



Snappy, that's how I do it.  I wish I had the internet way back when so I didn't have to learn that through trial and error.  I buy cheap .79 cent packages of hot dogs for treats and cut up a bunch of little pieces.  They swallow the little pieces in anticipation for all the other little pieces in my hand.  Too funny, they don't even chew.


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## misera (Aug 2, 2015)

Whenever it's a actual solid pill, I just put a glob of peanut butter on a spoon and squish the pill in there (like benedryl). But for the generic nitenpyram it usually comes as a flavored powder in a capsule so you can open the capsule and dump the powder straight onto their food . 

Teresa, I highly suggest switching the flea preventative. I went from Frontline Plus completely ineffective where I lived to K9 Advantix II that worked really well. I've only had to deal with one flea infestation in the past 3 years since switching and it was due to traveling to another state and her playing at the dog park when I was there (so k9 may not have been effective there). You might need to just try different ones though don't apply more than once a month still. It might take time to see which works best for your area.

But guys seriously try the neem oil if you can! And definitely treat your lawn for fleas.. most of the general insect stuff you spread on your lawns in the summer take care of fleas too.


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## tbeck3579 (Aug 2, 2015)

I had forgotten the name of the product(s) so I did a search.  I'm guessing the reason this worked so well is the injection interrupted the growth/life cycle of the fleas in the environment where the dogs ran and played, while the 24 hour stuff killed all the adult fleas.  This is a farm and I haven't had to do this every 6 months.  I will do it again if needed.  I don't like the health risks of monthly OTC or prescription solutions so this was excellent IMO.  I'm a skeptic and I believe vets sell the monthly stuff because they are making huge profits -- job security.  For example, you can buy monthly Heart-wormer for pigs at a fraction of the cost.  It's sad that more people don't know that because many can't afford to buy Heartworm meds; they are cost prohibitive.  Of course you had better know how to do dose/weight calculations or you will kill the animal.  

Oral and Injectable Products: Program, a  product containing an insect development inhibitor is available as a  tablet for dogs and cats and as an injectable for cats. The tablets are  given once a month; the injection is given every 6 months. Program does  not kill the adult fleas, so if you have fleas, you MUST also use  something to kill the adults. Capstar, another oral product, is approved  for use in dogs and cats. It will kill adult fleas, but only for a  period of 24 hours or less. It is useful in situations such as boarding,  grooming, and prior to surgery. Because Capstar is out of your pet's  system in 24 hours, it should be followed with a longer-lasting product  that will work on both adult and immature fleas. Both Comfortis and  Trifexis are oral products that kill adult fleas. Trifexis also prevents  heartworm infection and treats and controls hookworm, roundworm, and  whipworm infections.
Here is the link:  Doctors Foster & Smith Pet Education (wholesale supplier that I used for years when I had a Kennel).



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