# help with my lovely dog...



## rupertspal42 (Oct 4, 2009)

:evil: my dog is so adorable but she wont stop chewing on things that she's not supposed to be.. she's a lab mix.. go figure she has a chewing problem..but she's driving me to drinking with it.. she has gotten a little better but OMG!! If someone doesn't get home at the correct time.. let the chewing frenzy begin.. she has so many toys to play with and plenty of chewies to.. i've punished her and everything.. but still... :!:  :!:  :!: it's always the most random of things to!


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## IanT (Oct 4, 2009)

rupertspal42 said:
			
		

> :evil: my dog is so adorable but she wont stop chewing on things that she's not supposed to be.. she's a lab mix.. go figure she has a chewing problem..but she's driving me to drinking with it.. she has gotten a little better but OMG!! If someone doesn't get home at the correct time.. let the chewing frenzy begin.. she has so many toys to play with and plenty of chewies to.. i've punished her and everything.. but still... :!:  :!:  :!: it's always the most random of things to!




You try crating her while you are away? The dog whisperer?!?!?!


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## Jody (Oct 4, 2009)

What's wrong with drinking?  Just drink more and you won't care.  : )


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## jarvan (Oct 4, 2009)

Get her a crate, don't be afraid to use it when you are gone. This is a comfort zone both for your dog and for you! 

Then while she is in her crate acclamating to it, settle in with a nice cocktail or glass of wine and celebrate the safety of all things not-to-be-chewed.


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 4, 2009)

I've heard of create training but 'm afraid JAWS II will chew on something and hurt herself.. she's smart.. but sometimes special.. I was trying to keep her outside while I was at work but she killed my garden and tore..  do mean tore.. up a tiki torch!! so I try to keep her carraled in the kitchen with baby gates..  :cry:   :cry:  :cry: she'll be a yr old next month


*wow that's redneck - carraled..


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## IanT (Oct 4, 2009)

rupertspal42 said:
			
		

> I've heard of create training but 'm afraid JAWS II will chew on something and hurt herself.. she's smart.. but sometimes special.. I was trying to keep her outside while I was at work but she killed my garden and tore..  do mean tore.. up a tiki torch!! so I try to keep her carraled in the kitchen with baby gates..  :cry:   :cry:  :cry: she'll be a yr old next month
> 
> 
> *wow that's redneck - carraled..



see but dogs are pack animals, evolutionarily they are used to living in dens, so a crate is like your dogs 'den' at home, I dont believe you will have a prob with chewing in there..just get a good crate, keep a few toys in there for your pup and itll all be good !


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 4, 2009)

ok, so any reccomedations on a good doggy crate??


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## kittywings (Oct 4, 2009)

Get one that's big enough for the dog when it's full-grown, but has a barrier to make it smaller if the dog is still a puppy.  If the dog has too much room it's not as effective.
Also, google "crate training tips" or something like it and follow it to the letter!  Our "blond monster" (read: golden retriever) hated his crate because we didn't build up to it correctly (we would have to trick him into going in, I have long, but funny stories about it).  However, he LOVED sleeping in our powder room, snuggled up against the toilet and so we treated it like a crate.  He wouldn't pee or poo in there and he'd always go there to sleep.  He's allowed to sleep upstairs now, but to this day (even when he stays at my mom's) he goes into the bathroom to sleep.

Think about this too... the dog is safer in the crate, it could chew on an electrical cord or something if it's out.  

Another thing, exercise is HUGE for dogs... most people don't run their dogs enough.  We found that our dog was only manageable if we ran him about 2 miles (in fact, I'm getting "the eyes" from him right now)


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## Rosey (Oct 4, 2009)

I agree with kittywings. You also don't leave toys in a crate. Leave her in there for very short periods of time at first and don't necessarily close it. I threw treats in there and the dog went in and I said "bed" and they know now when I say bed it means go in the crate.

As far as chewing goes, redirect her. When she's chewing on something, say NO and give her something else to chew on. I taught one of my dogs to "leave it" which means "drop it" really and he will do it even if he's chewing on bone. Sometimes I'm not sure what he's chewing on so I can check that way and if it's a bone I can say "ok" and he'll continue. He's 2 now and rarely chews on something he shouldn't.


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## TessC (Oct 4, 2009)

We're huge fans of crate training here. Our golden doesn't actually spend a lot of time in his since I'm a SAHM, but he sees it as "his space" and will go nap in it on his own at times. He feels secure and safe in there, and it's also a lifesaver when I need him out from underfoot for a few minutes, when we're away, etc. He doesn't see his crate as a punishment or anything negative, and happily goes in whenever we say, "Go get in your box."


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## ewepootoo (Oct 4, 2009)

Your dog may just need another dog for company, something really small that you get free to good home that does not eat much. I think dogs destroy things because they are bored.  
*Jody* I nearly choked on my breakfast crumpet when I read your solution to this problem


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## kittywings (Oct 4, 2009)

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I thought you guys would find this funny...

My husband (a firefighter) got unexpectedly deployed to Williams, AZ to fight a wildland fire while I was at work last night, thus the dog didn't get his daily run.  This is what I usually get when situations like this occur (keep in mind that this was already going on for a few minutes before I came upstairs)


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## kittywings (Oct 4, 2009)

ewepootoo said:
			
		

> Your dog may just need another dog for company, something really small that you get free to good home that does not eat much. I think dogs destroy things because they are bored.
> *Jody* I nearly choked on my breakfast crumpet when I read your solution to this problem



Me too!


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## IanT (Oct 5, 2009)

lol he is all like...i want to ruuuuuuuuuuuun plaaaaay with meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


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## pixybratt (Oct 5, 2009)

The thing I love about labs, they are puppies for at least 2 years.
The thing I hate about Labs, they are puppies for at least 2 years.

good luck with the chewing!


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## kittywings (Oct 5, 2009)

IanT said:
			
		

> lol he is all like...i want to ruuuuuuuuuuuun plaaaaay with meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee



Totally!  It sounds like a herd of elephants on crack!

You can bet that he got a BIG run in today... at the park!


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## IanT (Oct 5, 2009)

lol good stuff! 

I love dogs! 

Though I have a cat now, I miss having a dog...theyre way more chill...


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## alwaysme07 (Oct 5, 2009)

> Sorry to hijack the thread, but I thought you guys would find this funny...
> 
> My husband (a firefighter) got unexpectedly deployed to Williams, AZ to fight a wildland fire while I was at work last night, thus the dog didn't get his daily run.  This is what I usually get when situations like this occur (keep in mind that this was already going on for a few minutes before I came upstairs)





He is too funny!


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## Wax Munky (Oct 5, 2009)

Our Lab when she was first adopted from a shelter was a chewer.We left one day 2 hours and came home to what I immediately thought was we were robbed.My house was just trashed.Beautiful furniture couches rugs,tables accessories on them were destroyed.

I'm not a big fan of crates,for that sole reason,she never had the chance as a pup to truly co exist with humans.She was taught nothing.What she did learn was to fear people.We had to undo,rehabilitate her.

You don't have a bad dog.Labs are very sensitive.Reading up on the breed should help you to understand her.They chew to set their jaws.They don't do it to annoy you.They don't like you to come home and scold them first thing anymore then you like coming home to a mess.It's work to have and train a puppy.It's not fair to anyone,especially her.

Anything that's off limits to chew on.Furniture,table legs,anything.Go to the produce section,spend $2.00 on some Habanero Peppers.Glove up,don't wipe your eyes.Cut them in half,Lightly rub any area you don't want chewed.Don't wash the spots off until she gets the idea of whats hers and what isn't.
Make sure she has plenty of cold water.One lick of that,and just a reminder taste later will do the trick.The Habnero's won't stain fabrics,linoleum and such.

Large doggy doors are cheap.With labs bladders they really are a god send.In many ways.It cuts down on her boredom.She's free.

Getting another dog for companionship for her..Well no offence,train her first,let her establish some good sound training.That way when and if you do get another one.She will already be established,she's the boss lady.That in its self is huge ego booster for a lab.She will train the new kid by example..The pick up fast.Especially when the good deeds are rewarded.Praise and lots of it.

We have 3 dogs.2 biguns' and a little one we don't know the breed.She has a purple nose though..Go figure 

Munky.


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## dagmar88 (Oct 5, 2009)

With puppies and young dogs, chewing is very normal and you really shouldn't worry too much. 
Mine is teething right now and she's a disaster. We taught her not to chew on our stuff, (by very very cheerfully rewarding her) so now she either eats the kitty toys or tries to chew on our hands, face and especially human and animal ears  :roll: 
Otherwise, the chewing could have two causes; either behavioural or nutricional. If she keeps on chewing you should have her checked at the vet to see if she has any shortages. 
But problaby it's just boredom. When you're home, play with, train and walk her as often as possible/as you both like. Dogs really thrive on good exercise and doing stuff together. 

I don't like crates, but that's probably cause the doggie I had before Charlie could get out of it (don't ask me how!) and really hated the crate no mather what...

Before we leave Charlie for a longer time, whitch only happens once in a while, we leave te door to the balcony open so she can do her business there, and we give her something that will keep her busy for some time; like a pig nose or stuffed kong.

Good luck   

*okay, as I'm writing, Charlie stole the toilet roll and is unwraping it right now  *


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 5, 2009)

this is something i've noticed.. she's like in her terrible twos!!! she wants to do what she wants to do when she wants to do it.. lol she's been doing ok with the chewing..again.. i'm sure she'll start when she gets mad again. lmao we're going to my mom's house and she'll be able to play with their doggys lol Layla runs back and forth through the house when she wants to play..she chases Jane around (she's the cat) and even crawls under the bed to get to her lmao.. but i'll have to look for a crate that fits her.. i'm not sure where I could put it in our house!!


*layla doesn't like to be far from me already.. when I put her up in the kitchen for the night she crys herself to sleep..  :cry: she's such a smart and wonderful dog but her stubborness is making me ccrraazzzyyyy :evil:


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## kittywings (Oct 5, 2009)

Do you make a big deal about it when you leave her alone?  They say that kind of a thing can contribute to the dog's separation anxiety.  

We always just stroll out of the house, whether it's for 2 minutes or 2 hours... then again, my dog will squeak at the door whenever my husband leaves the house regardless of the amount of time that he's gone.

I think the dogs who don't like their crates, weren't introduced properly and thus have a prejudice about them (like mine:  without knowing better, I plopped him into it the first day we had him when it was time for bed, thinking 5 minutes sitting outside it with him was good enough.  He howled like someone was murdering his family right in front of his eyes... so I got a cardboard box so he could be in our room, which he climbed right out of... I think that's how the sleeping in the bathroom business started).

It sounds like boredom/terrible twos... which our dog is JUUUUUUST coming out of.  According to what I've read, they try to push boundaries, etc.   Basically, they're teenagers at this point and... well you catch my drift.

Luckily, Baz stopped chewing excessively pretty much after teething and (knock on wood) I haven't lost any shoes (can't say the same for DH) we did lose every area rug downstairs though, but bitter apple spray helped a lot.   HIS big issue was potty training, he picked up everything else SOOO fast, but going "potty" inside was a nightmare.  LITERALLY, every single time we would say (or think... seriously) "I think he's finally potty trained!"  he would come into the room and pee right in front of you.  I THINK we're past it now... but I'll report back if he immediately gets up and does his business on the kitchen floor.  I followed every potty training thing I could find and it just wasn't coming across.  What finally worked for me (I think) was every time he was being a complete ass and not leaving us alone, to let him outside... 9 times out of 10 he immediately went to the bathroom.  It was confusing though because most times he would go to the door and "oof" but sometimes he wasn't letting us know in the right way that he needed to go out.

I'm rambling now...


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 5, 2009)

i'm starting to think its the terrible twos because even as I sit here an type this she nudges my arm to get me to keep rubbing her ol' goofy head just like  spoiled child lmao.. I try not to let her see me leaving the house because she'll try to escape out the front door if she sees me!! right now she's laying behind me chewing on a rawhide.. she's perfectly content.. but she's very attached to me i've noiced lol if get up to go 5 ft she's right behind me hehhe


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## kittywings (Oct 6, 2009)

We trained our dog to sit at the door and to let us go through first before he goes (it's a dominance thing)... it works pretty well (except when we have my mom's dog, because she barrels right through!).


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## Rosey (Oct 6, 2009)

One of my dog follows me around too. You need to do some training with her. 
My dog will misbehave if I lay off the training. If I do, he won't come when called and basically do what he wants. 

What you need to do is not give in to her whines and things will go better. If you put her up for the night, leave her there, don't go back out there. It's like a baby. If you go check on her or to calm her, it's teaching her that whinning = you're going to come.

You also need to do training about you leaving. Pick up your stuff like you're leaving but then just set them down and don't go anywhere. Do that a few times. Then when she doesn't react to that, go the next step, go outside and come right back in. After a while, you leaving will be no big deal.

Training every day is not a big deal. It's not going to be 30 minutes a day. It can be just 5. I make my dogs sit and wait while I open the door and they can't run outside until I say "ok". I do this because of 2 things: first of all so they don't door dash and second of all, especially for my boy, that he knows that I am in charge and he has to wait for *my* ok to go outside and play. It makes him focus on me better.

Definitely crate train. The crate here stays mostly open and they go in there when they want to relax or get away from us. They do start viewing it as a den.

Good luck! It does get better. My boy is 2.5 and my girl will be 2 soon and over the last few months, they have mellowed out. I have pitbulls and they are also a breed that stays puppy a little longer.


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## TessC (Oct 6, 2009)

We taught our Murphy that he's never to go through the door to go outside without sitting and waiting for an "okay" from us. For us it originally was purely a safety thing, he's a big boy (close to 90 pounds of golden retriever happiness and energy) and I have a wrecked knee, so it'd be very easy for him to knock me down the steps and put me back in physical therapy. 

We found out over time that it has some very nice side effects, like keeping him from being a butt and running out to say hi when the UPS guy shows up. He wants to go say hi, you can see it on his face as plain as day, but he knows he has to wait to hear that "okay". 

He has a lot of energy but it's not so bad to cope with, he likes being taught silly little tricks and tasks and keeping him busy really keeps him out of trouble. He's never been destructive, thankfully, his only real fault is that he still doesn't get that the cats hate him with every fiber of their beings, so he gets swatted a lot, lol. You'd think that 18 months of swats and hisses would have gotten it through to him, but not yet....


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## kittywings (Oct 6, 2009)

TessV said:
			
		

> He's never been destructive, thankfully, his only real fault is that he still doesn't get that the cats hate him with every fiber of their beings, so he gets swatted a lot, lol. You'd think that 18 months of swats and hisses would have gotten it through to him, but not yet....



lol... only one of our cats hates Baz, and it drives him NUTS!  Because she doesn't want to play with him he usually corners her and barks, which of course, scares her and so she hisses, etc. which makes him freak out even more.  He was being an ass to me the other day freaking out because his ball was under the couch (which is why he's not SUPPOSED to have his ball in the house, because he puts it under there on purpose so we have to get it every two seconds... but DH keeps giving him balls in the house [he swears that he doesn't and that Baz just has a "stash"].  Well, he didn't realize Pam was right there next to me and she hauled off and CRACKED him on the side of his face!  (The look on his face was priceless)  This, of course, upset him so he goes a safe distance from Pam (of whom he's now scared) and tries his little swat like a cat move... which doesn't work, because he's a dog.  It was pretty funny.

I guess that's what you get with one dog in a house with 3 cats... he grooms himself like a cat too (sigh...).


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## TessC (Oct 6, 2009)

I think if Murphy ever barked at either of our two cats, they'd kill him right there on the spot, poor boy. Both of the cats are snarky with him, but Kimi actively bullies him, the evil heifer.  :roll: 

Prime example, he was sound asleep in the floor behind my desk chair earlier, Kimi wandered through the room and stopped in front of him, got this look of pure hatred on her face, and hissed at him. The hiss woke him up and made him pick his head up to look, which prompted her to slap him on the nose. Luckily they very rarely use their claws, but still.....evil heifers I tell you.


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## kittywings (Oct 6, 2009)

lol, poor puppy!  

I feel bad for Baz sometimes because he just desperately wants to be friends with Pam.  He always looks so happy when the other kitties rub up against him and snuggle with him... but Pam, she's wants NO part of him.


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## wendybyrd (Oct 7, 2009)

Oh dear lord that is too cute!  

My cats get along alright with Boomer, our bigger dog, but if Radha comes within 18 inches of them, they'll bleed her.  It is sort of funny, sort of sad to see them let Boomer pass by unmolested, and see Radha try to go past right behind at the same distance  and get cat claws in the butt.

Oh well, winter is on it's way again, and that means that the cats will lay off, because winter time is when the cats start sleeping on top of the dogs.  To them "dog" means "heating pad".


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## Yummo&amp;YAsMommy (Oct 7, 2009)

I have some crate training tips.  We adopted a 1 1/2 year old shepherd mix last year.  He likes to chew.  He HATED the crate at first but we bought him a kong and would fill it with peanut butter and treats and give it to him in the crate.  Now, he loves his crate.  It's his escape from the kids, although they do sometimes crawl in it with him.  My recommendation is the black Extreme Kongs.  Our mutt would go through one a week of the regular ones.  They are not as indestructable as they seem.  Another thing is to cover the crate.  It makes it more den-like.  But make sure there is still good airflow.  There are several places to buy ready made sets of covers and cushions for crates.  The bitter sprays and peppers work well sometimes they're not practical.  Our dog likes the bitter sprays and I'm not comfortable using pepper as I have small children who put thing in their mouths.  Be patient, most of them do grow out of it.  Good Luck!


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 7, 2009)

kittywings - 
 that is the cutest picture in the wordl!! 

Yummo&YAsMommy - 
great tip that was one of the first things I got her!! She gets mad sometimes becaue she can't get her treat out but it keeps her really busy!! I love it! We also got her a bigger tennis ball that she can't chew on either and she likes to play with that.

Now going out the back door, she's fine.. I guess because she knows she can't go anywhere but the yard?? but like I said if she  see's freedom out the front door.. holy cow!! I try to train her but it's my room mate who plays ruff with her and doesn't tell her to sit or anything.  I have to yell at him all the time because he lets her walk all over him.. and it doesn't help.. I woke up yesterday to a box of chewed up crayons on my floor because since she had been doing so good I let her sleep in my room with me.. yeah.. she got the kitchen for that one.. lol I honestly think she is way to smart for her own good though... she catches on to things.. like when she would tell me she needs to go outside to go potty I would give her treat.. now if I LET HER outside.. and then she comes back inside she runs to where I keep her treats EXPECTING one.. I don't always give her one because I want her to understand that i'm boss lol but I know she gets that because if I raise my voice she rolls over on her back "submitting" to me I guess you would say or sometimes she does the kid thing when she KNOWS she's in trouble and tries to hide or go to my room mate lol she's a very interesting pooch.. and she's not your normal dog either.. she is truely one of kind and i've been thinking about taking her to that petsmart training class.. but then she starts to do really well.. then she has her bad days haha and I want to go play in the road because she's making me crazy!! I truely love all of the advice everyone is giving me to!! I've been working on finding a crate that looks comfy for her.. she's hit her height but not her weight according to the vet.. she has ALOT of extra skin to.. which scares me lmao.. but again thanks for the advice guys it really means alot that ya'll are taking the time to pitch in some hints and ideas!!


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## kittywings (Oct 8, 2009)

rupertspal42 said:
			
		

> She gets mad sometimes becaue she can't get her treat out but it keeps her really busy!!



lol, Baz freaks out when he can't get the treats out of the kong ball too... but he is too smart as well: he walks around with it squeaking (read: crying)  and then he continually slams it on the ground to make the treat pop out either that or he keeps dropping it on our laps until we throw it for him.

We took him to the Petsmart class and he's SO much better afterwards!

I think the main thing in training dogs is consistency... I have somewhat of the same problems that you have with your roommate with my husband.  The dog will be doing something bad and Nick'll be petting him at the same time and I call him on it and Nick says "but it's Bazzybear."  (sigh....)  For example: we decided not to give him balls inside the house anymore because he is OBSESSED with them and he constantly rolls them under things that he can't get them out of again and then FREAKS OUT 'til we get the ball (I just put it away, DH gives it back to him).  We know he does it on purpose to drive us nuts because if we give him a ball and leave the house for hours, he'll still have it when we get home, if we give him one when we're here, it's under the couch 2 seconds later (I've watched him purposely roll it under the couch!).  It's not just with us either, at my mom's he tries to jam it into her box of canning jars... (sigh) he's got issues.  :? 

I'm just venting now, because he's driving me nuts tonight!  The weather just got really nice this week and he wants to out, then after 2 minutes he wants in, then out, then in, then out  ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ibariaSoap (Oct 12, 2009)

I have two labs that I rescues at 2.5 weeks old. they were CHEW CRAZY! They chewed a hole in our drywall! They chewed our couches... pillows...everything! 

How did I stop it?

I made sure they had LOTS of excersize, in addition to lots of nylabones to chew. Also, when we left the house, we put soft muzzles on both of them, until they learned to not chew. 

Of course, we didn't leave the house for more than an hour or two at a time.

Good luck!


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 14, 2009)

you know my lab baby just started chewing/scratching the drywall out of the wall where we keep her at.  I've been tryng to teach her that being penned up is a good thing and she gets treats but she isjust like a two year old!!


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## ibariaSoap (Oct 15, 2009)

Sounds like she may need more exercise! A tired pupple is a GOOD puppy.


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## kittywings (Oct 15, 2009)

Sounds right to me! When they're being a pest, it's time to run their puppy a$$ off!


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 16, 2009)

That's something I wish I could do! lol i'm broken though.. i'm lucky if I can stay awake at work with all the meds they have me on.. i'm working on getting back into walking her after work especially now it's FINALLY cooling off... but we play with her outside.. fetch is her game.. and she plays tug n' war with my room-mate.. so she gets some exercise


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## kittywings (Oct 17, 2009)

Sorry to keep jumping on anything that people say... BUT it's not good to play tug-of-war, and you ESPECIALLY can't let them win.  It's all a dominance thing, but also... I heard of a little girl being strangled to death by the family's golden retriever because she had a scarf on and the dog (who was used to playing tug of war) thought it was a game.    

That being said... I catch my husband doing it with our dog sometimes (...sigh).  I don't know if it's within your price range but maybe you could hire a dog walker ... OR as the Dog Whisperer suggests, you could get a dog weight vest so that the walks it DOES get are more effective in tiring the dog out.


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 21, 2009)

ooo i like this doggy weight vest thing.. might need to invest into that one..  :twisted:


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## dagmar88 (Oct 21, 2009)

Or find a second hand treadmill. I don't think it's healty to put more weight on her, as it strains the joints.
From what I hear, I do think it has to do with exercise; a dog needs to walk in order to keep him sane. 
Our 5 month old puppy gets walked at least 1,5 hours a day and way longer on sunday. Sunday is doggy day over here   

@ kittywings; when playing tug of war the first thing you teach your dog is drop it... (and the first thing you should teach anyone who has a dog & child is not to leave the both of them out of their sight)

We play tug & war with Charlie all the time and she will growl, shake er tail so hard her bum wiggles too and jump on top of us to nibble at our ears; but at any moment in time we tell her to 'calm done, game is over', she'll stop right away.
We don't let her win, when we ask her to drop it she will and we throw the toy in her basket...
So I don't believe you've got anything to worry about  :wink:


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 21, 2009)

you guys are great!


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## kittywings (Oct 21, 2009)

dagmar88 said:
			
		

> I don't think it's healty to put more weight on her, as it strains the joints.
> From what I hear, I do think it has to do with exercise; a dog needs to walk in order to keep him sane.
> Our 5 month old puppy gets walked at least 1,5 hours a day and way longer on sunday. Sunday is doggy day over here
> 
> ...



LOL, I don't think the weight vests are THAT heavy... it's mostly for people who don't have the time/inclination to walk their dog ENOUGH but the extra weight tires them out faster. I haven't used one, just saw it on the Dog Whisperer.

Your way of tug of war sounds good, I just think some people don't work with their dogs that much and that can be a problem then.  And like I said, as much as I want to be consistent with our dog... DH always manages to mess it up!   His excuse is always ... "but, it's Bazzybear!"


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## IanT (Oct 22, 2009)

lol ....

You know I just got a vision in my head of a dog running with 4 of those ankle weight things runners use... lol .... that would be nuuuuts...
 :shock:


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## kittywings (Oct 22, 2009)




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## dagmar88 (Oct 22, 2009)

I'm sorry, I once had a huuuuge dog with big joint problems. I kept him very, very lean. So that was the first thing I thought of


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## kittywings (Oct 22, 2009)

dagmar88 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I once had a huuuuge dog with big joint problems. I kept him very, very lean. So that was the first thing I thought of



It's a good point to be made though, it might cause issues with some dogs!


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## rupertspal42 (Oct 22, 2009)

this seems to be a great thread we have going, everyone gets to put in their opinions and everyone gets to read them lol I think this really helps me see all points of views!


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