# Temps and H2O



## Savonette (May 25, 2020)

Hi all,
I'm at the phase of TOTAL RE-EVALUATION!  I posted a recipe on the Calculator that I'd love some feedback on.  I'm giving up on stearic acid (spots), citric acid (grainy) and fast setup (increasing my H2O%).  I want the middle-of-the-road formula that can swirl a bit, has great lather and slip, doesn't shrink and deform.  I'm happy with this recipe but question the TEMPS and H2O.  Do I really have to change my recipe if I want to do a more detailed swirl or can I just soap at a different temp.  What's the go-to water % for that trifecta of gel/swirl/shrink? And does that vary according to one or two key fatty acids?  I'm thinking there's got to be one or two golden rules that I just haven't found yet...
Thanks everyone

Temps & H2O


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## Obsidian (May 25, 2020)

Is there a reason you want to use small amounts of so many different oils? Seems like that recipe could be simplified a lot.

Try something like this, 5% SF
50% lard (or 25% lard, 25% palm)
25% olive or rice bran
20% coconut
5% castor

If using lard with no palm, this recipe will trace slow. Soap around 95*, the hotter the temps the faster it will trace.
If you use the lard/palm combo it will trace faster, at least it does for me.

I use water:lye at 2:1 in all my recipes, swirls or not.


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## Savonette (May 25, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> Is there a reason you want to use small amounts of so many different oils? Seems like that recipe could be simplified a lot.
> 
> Try something like this, 5% SF
> 50% lard (or 25% lard, 25% palm)
> ...


I can try this. My issues with high lard % in the past result in excessive soap scum. We’ll see how EDTA works out. Those earlier bars also shrank a lot and not in a pretty way. The calculator give this an 18 on the bubble-o-meter. Yours are still bubbly?  Thanks so much for this


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## atiz (May 25, 2020)

Savonette said:


> I can try this. My issues with high lard % in the past result in excessive soap scum. We’ll see how EDTA works out. Those earlier bars also shrank a lot and not in a pretty way. The calculator give this an 18 on the bubble-o-meter. Yours are still bubbly?  Thanks so much for this


You can add a bit of sugar/honey/sorbitol/aloe vera/etc. to increase sugar. It really does help.
I have a similar recipe and I quite like it, it's a good soap. And yes, bubbly enough.


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## Susie (May 25, 2020)

And if you are having a problem with soap scum, you need lower superfat and add EDTA.  That recipe Obsidian posted is a good one.  Plenty bubbles, nice creamy lather.  If you want more bubble, take @atiz suggestion above.  I use 1 tablespoon/PPO.


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## Mobjack Bay (May 25, 2020)

I was having issues with CA and cut it back to 1%.  I use it in recipes that don’t have animal fats.  For those I use edta because I have It and want to use it up.


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## Obsidian (May 25, 2020)

Savonette said:


> I can try this. My issues with high lard % in the past result in excessive soap scum. We’ll see how EDTA works out. Those earlier bars also shrank a lot and not in a pretty way. The calculator give this an 18 on the bubble-o-meter. Yours are still bubbly?  Thanks so much for this



Lard does seem to make more soap scum but I don't really notice it much anymore, the edta will help with that.

It bubbles plenty, not like a store bought soap but enough for handmade soap. I like using aloe juice to help with bubbles.


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## KiwiMoose (May 25, 2020)

I have found that I needed to develop a second recipe for more swirling time, though my usual recipe works ok for some swirling/ patterns too.
I cannot go too low in my temperatures because I use soy wax at 20% and it needs to be soaped warm.  My typical ratio is 50/50 sat/unsat fats, but after reading something by Ione about her famous swirls she said she uses 40sat/60 unsat so I made a second recipe to do more intricate swirls which contains 45% OO and less soy wax.  Still needs to be warm-is but the OO allows more time.
My water: lye ratio is usually around 2.33:1 but with the high OO it's 2.57:1
The most important thing I've found is making sure you are using a well behaved FO for swirls.
Photo examples of usual recipe swirl ( with naughty FO so had to adapt the type of swirl), followed by high OO swirl.


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## Savonette (May 25, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> Lard does seem to make more soap scum but I don't really notice it much anymore, the edta will help with that.
> 
> It bubbles plenty, not like a store bought soap but enough for handmade soap. I like using aloe juice to help with bubbles.


I have tons of aloe juice. I’m looking forward to see what EDTA will do. I recently found the “longevity” marker on the calculator and now trying to hit a higher mark hence the cocoa butter. I also have RBO that needs using up so..I figured the lye ratio and temps needed updating and just hope I’ll consistently make beautifully awesome bars Instead of every other. Thank you


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## Savonette (May 25, 2020)

atiz said:


> You can add a bit of sugar/honey/sorbitol/aloe vera/etc. to increase sugar. It really does help.
> I have a similar recipe and I quite like it, it's a good soap. And yes, bubbly enough.





atiz said:


> You can add a bit of sugar/honey/sorbitol/aloe vera/etc. to increase sugar. It really does help.
> I have a similar recipe and I quite like it, it's a good soap. And yes, bubbly enough.


Awesome!  And no funny shrink/warping?


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## Savonette (May 25, 2020)

Susie said:


> And if you are having a problem with soap scum, you need lower superfat and add EDTA.  That recipe Obsidian posted is a good one.  Plenty bubbles, nice creamy lather.  If you want more bubble, take @atiz suggestion above.  I use 1 tablespoon/PPO.


I’ve read you need to use cane sugar because beet sugar can “grow”. I’ve started lowering my SF to 3% and it feels better right out of the mold!  Thanks


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## Savonette (May 25, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I was having issues with CA and cut it back to 1%.  I use it in recipes that don’t have animal fats.  For those I use edta because I have It and want to use it up.


Very interesting!  That’s a note for my book!  I was using the 10g/6g calculation and found my soap cured all ashy. Don’t you like EDTA?


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## Savonette (May 25, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> I have found that I needed to develop a second recipe for more swirling time, though my usual recipe works ok for some swirling/ patterns too.
> I cannot go too low in my temperatures because I use soy wax at 20% and it needs to be soaped warm.  My typical ratio is 50/50 sat/unsat fats, but after reading something by Ione about her famous swirls she said she uses 40sat/60 unsat so I made a second recipe to do more intricate swirls which contains 45% OO and less soy wax.  Still needs to be warm-is but the OO allows more time.
> My water: lye ratio is usually around 2.33:1 but with the high OO it's 2.57:1
> The most important thing I've found is making sure you are using a well behaved FO for swirls.
> ...


Those are beautiful swirls. I usually do 43:57 say:unsat and never did more than 15% lard because of our hard water scum. I’m going to try 95F more consistently to see if it helps. I like soaping hotter for stearic acid bubbleocity but stearic and I haven’t been getting along so well lately. And of course those strong florals and citrus.  I’m just back from a 3 year hiatus so...


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## Mobjack Bay (May 25, 2020)

Savonette said:


> Very interesting!  That’s a note for my book!  I was using the 10g/6g calculation and found my soap cured all ashy. Don’t you like EDTA?


I haven’t really done the side by side comparison of CA and edta to weigh in on which I like best. We’re on wells in my part of my county, and one of my neighbors has really, really bad water.  She said she can’t use handmade soap in her old farmhouse due to the pipes, so she keeps it in the outdoor shower. I bought the edta to make soap for her to try i side, but haven’t remembered to ask her if it’s making a difference


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## atiz (May 25, 2020)

Savonette said:


> Awesome!  And no funny shrink/warping?


I haven't had soap warp on me. It does lose a bit of weight and gets "thinner" -- but I think there's very little one can do about that (it is just water loss). Don't think sugar would make a difference in that.


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## Obsidian (May 25, 2020)

The only time I had soap warp was when I first started and was using too much water.


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## SPowers (May 26, 2020)

This is off topic a bit and I don't want to hijack but I've never seen the site Soapmaking Friend site.  Is this a collection of recipes by different people for sharing, etc.  And I'm not sure how to find Savonette's recipe.  Thanks


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## Savonette (May 26, 2020)

SPowers said:


> This is off topic a bit and I don't want to hijack but I've never seen the site Soapmaking Friend site.  Is this a collection of recipes by different people for sharing, etc.  And I'm not sure how to find Savonette's recipe.  Thanks


If your looking at this on a phone find and touch the 3lines in the top left of the screen. Then click “Calculator “. Otherwise just click “Calculator “ above in the brown line. It’s larger and scroll-ier than Soap Calc but offers a NaOH/KOH option,  additives, and a Longevity indicator.


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## SPowers (May 26, 2020)

I'm on my laptop... not seeing a 'calculator'... this is what I see when I click the link.


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## Beth (May 26, 2020)

SPowers said:


> This is off topic a bit and I don't want to hijack but I've never seen the site Soapmaking Friend site.  Is this a collection of recipes by different people for sharing, etc.  And I'm not sure how to find Savonette's recipe.  Thanks


Go to “refine search” and look by author’s name: savonette


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## Savonette (May 26, 2020)

SPowers said:


> I'm on my laptop... not seeing a 'calculator'... this is what I see when I click the link.
> View attachment 46352



You’re almost there. In fact you’re in it. Click on the orange “Recipes” then “New Recipe” in the drop down. You can also click on the orange title of the batch to see it. Or the orange “Search Recipe” box to find something or someone specific. But from The Forum you can click on “Calculator “ in the dark brown line.


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## SPowers (May 26, 2020)

Thought I did that but managed to find it this time... thanks!


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## amd (May 26, 2020)

I've been playing with the Royalty Soaps recipe - which is a really simple recipe although high(ish) in CO. I've been using it at some of my bathroom sinks and it doesn't seem to irritate my hands but haven't tried it in the shower yet. Anyways, it does have an easy vegan recipe, and a lower water amount. I did find it difficult to work with using my regular methods (which is a blatant disregard for temps), but I did try the true "room temp" method as Katie uses the recipe (melt oils, mix lye, and allow both to come to room temp and/or sit for 12-24 hours) and it was very easy to work with.

Or this recipe from Lovin Soap: The Peacock Swirl Soap Design
Looks like it's roughly 33/33/22/12 OO/Lard/CO/RBO which should make a fairly nice soap.


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## Susie (May 26, 2020)

I habitually use cane sugar for soap simply because I am from the south, and that is the only sugar available here at a decent price point.  I have, however, used honey and cane syrup (think molasses) with identical results.


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## Savonette (May 27, 2020)

I used10% aloe juice, .5% EDTA, and the Temps & H2O recipe. Soaped are the agonizingly slow to get to 95F and cpop’d   Not too shabby...Thanks everyone


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