# Cloudy LS



## Persofit (Apr 27, 2016)

Hello friends, 

I thought I had this LS stuff down until I made a bigger batch than usual. I use the Soapee calculator. 
Everything went great, my LS was super transparent until the next day it turned cloudy. 

I use 0% Superfat and my Lye Concentration is 25%.
Total oil weight is 5kg using 1.113kg KOH and 3.34kg of dilution water for the KOH ( KOH 3:1). * used demineralized water for the whole thing.

and added Borax ( 6 tbls ) into the dilution water. Dilution water I used 1:1 ratio.

any ideas? 
Thank you


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## Susie (Apr 27, 2016)

If you could post your whole recipe in weights, it would help. Not knowing how much of which oils leaves us guessing.

I am going to take a stab in the dark, though, and guess that you might just need to sequester it a bit if you make the recipe frequently in smaller amounts.  Did you dissolve your borax completely in boiling water?


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## Persofit (Apr 27, 2016)

2.5kg olive oil
1.5kg castor oil
1.0kg coconut oil


Susie said:


> If you could post your whole recipe in weights, it would help. Not knowing how much of which oils leaves us guessing.
> 
> I am going to take a stab in the dark, though, and guess that you might just need to sequester it a bit if you make the recipe frequently in smaller amounts.  Did you dissolve your borax completely in boiling water?



Yes i did dilute the 6tbls in the dilution water ( I diluted ½ the recipe, 4kg of paste and 4kg of water)


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 27, 2016)

Persofit said:


> 2.5kg olive oil
> 1.5kg castor oil
> 1.0kg coconut oil
> 
> Yes i did dilute the 6tbls in the dilution water ( I diluted ½ the recipe, 4kg of paste and 4kg of water)



I think the chief suspect might be the borax, which can cloud the soap if too much is used. The guideline for how much to use is a little vague and probably depends on too many variables to really calculate. It's probably best to arrive at it empirically, starting with smaller amounts and working your way up.

There are a few things you can do to test the theory. Adding more borax to a sample of your cloudy soap should cloud it further. Diluting a sample of paste with no borax should result in clear soap.

If it is the borax, then maybe you can fix it. I really have no idea whether clouding due to borax is reversible, but it's worth a try. Perhaps take a sample of the cloudy soap and mix it 50/50 with a diluted sample containing no borax and see if it clears overnight.

I would be interested to hear about the results.


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## KristaY (Apr 27, 2016)

When I've used borax it was for the purpose of neutralizing & thickening the soap so it was added after dilution. I mixed my boiling water and borax then added by 1/4 tsp until I got the consistency I wanted and it was zap-less. So based on that, and that this recipe has a SF of 0%, is the borax necessary? I can't be 100% sure but I think the borax solution interferred with my EO/FO emulsification.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 27, 2016)

KristaY said:


> When I've used borax it was for the purpose of neutralizing & thickening the soap so it was added after dilution. I mixed my boiling water and borax then added by 1/4 tsp until I got the consistency I wanted and it was zap-less. So based on that, and that this recipe has a SF of 0%, is the borax necessary? I can't be 100% sure but I think the borax solution interferred with my EO/FO emulsification.



I've used borax for thickening slightly superfatted soap, but possibly you can't use as much. It's not an acid, but it can still lower the pH of the soap enough to cloud it if you go too far. Then there are other factors like the dilution rate and the type of oils, so we don't really know much about how to figure the usage rate.

Speaking with great precision, a little should normally be okay but you don't want to overdo it.


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## Persofit (Apr 28, 2016)

Hi everyone,
Just got back from Barcelona, i think the culprit was the Borax. I was using it wrong i think ( i added it to my dilution water and then melting my paste into it) i didnt know i could add to the soap after its diluted. 

I am diluting 1kg of my paste without Borax so i will update with results. ( the previous batch that's cloudy clears up with heat and then turns cloudy again )


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## Susie (Apr 28, 2016)

Persofit said:


> Hi everyone,
> Just got back from Barcelona, i think the culprit was the Borax. I was using it wrong i think ( i added it to my dilution water and then melting my paste into it) i didnt know i could add to the soap after its diluted.
> 
> I am diluting 1kg of my paste without Borax so i will update with results. ( *the previous batch that's cloudy clears up with heat and then turns cloudy again* )



If your house is too cool, even the clearest soap will turn cloudy.  That may be your main issue.


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## Persofit (Apr 28, 2016)

Susie said:


> If your house is too cool, even the clearest soap will turn cloudy.  That may be your main issue.



No its pretty warm , 72F


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 28, 2016)

Susie said:


> If your house is too cool, even the clearest soap will turn cloudy.  That may be your main issue.



Borax can affect the cloud point (temp) of the soap.


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## Susie (Apr 28, 2016)

Try the recipe without the borax (you only need to dilute a small portion for this test), then see if that clouds at room temperature.  If it does, then we need to go in one direction.  If it does not, then we may deduce that the borax is indeed the issue.  But, your statement that the soap clears when heated is a definite indication that we are dealing with a temperature issue.  

Thank you, TOMH, for letting me know that.  I don't use borax at all anymore, so I am unfamiliar with it's properties.  I think borax is an unnecessary step and ingredient for soap, so I just don't use it.


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## Persofit (Apr 28, 2016)

I liked the Borax for its ph buffer ( people seem freaked about a ph of 10 ) or i need to re-educate them, which is easier :-?
I also heard that it preserves the soap longer and kills little parasites ( but thats what i heard )

I am diluting 1kg now and will let you know tomorrow the results


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## DeeAnna (Apr 28, 2016)

Soap is itself a pH buffer. :think:


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## Persofit (Apr 29, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Soap is itself a pH buffer. :think:



So Borax is pretty much a unnecessary ingredient? Looks like the advantages are slim next to the inconvenience.


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## Susie (Apr 29, 2016)

Persofit said:


> So Borax is pretty much a unnecessary ingredient? Looks like the advantages are slim next to the inconvenience.



Completely unnecessary.  Make the soap using a 0-3% superfat.  Skip the whole borax routine.  

If you need a good recipe, I suggest IrishLass' LGS, with one modification.  Add 1/3 the total glycerin weight in water to mix with the KOH, then use the other 2 parts glycerin so you can skip the heating the glycerin with KOH step.  Makes just as thick soap with less hassle.  Be sure not to put that soap in a jug, because once it thickens up, you are going to have trouble pouring it out.  Put it into something you can scoop out of.


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## Persofit (Apr 29, 2016)

Here's what my dilution looks like for now ( no very nice )

I grated the paste with a hashbrown grader to make diluting quicker ( that worked great last time )
but this time I got suds and foam mixture with oil on the bottom.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 29, 2016)

Persofit said:


> Here's what my dilution looks like for now ( no very nice )
> 
> I grated the paste with a hashbrown grader to make diluting quicker ( that worked great last time )
> but this time I got suds and foam mixture with oil on the bottom.



What makes you think that's oil on the bottom? Looks like it just needs more water.


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## Susie (Apr 29, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> What makes you think that's oil on the bottom? Looks like it just needs more water.



^ I concur.  More water.  But try stickblending it together before you do, at the very least, you reduce the size of the pieces, thereby increasing surface area to decrease dilution time.  

I actually think this is the secret to IrishLass' LGS thickness, along with the SL to help with dilution.  You dump X amount of water in there, X amount of SL, let it heat up, and then stickblend the soap.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 29, 2016)

I can't advise about your dilution problem, but I can say this about borax --

Borax CAN be used to consume excess alkali in a soap IF the soap is intentionally made to be lye heavy or ends up being lye heavy by accident. Because borax is a buffer rather than an acid (citric acid, boric acid), borax tends to be more forgiving when using it to neutralize excess lye, but it can still cause problems.

If you make your soap with a slight superfat (fat heavy), then there is no excess lye to neutralize. Adding borax in this case will act to gradually drop the pH of the soap below the soap's "natural" pH. As more and more borax is added, it can cause clouding and separation of the soap as the soap attempts (being a buffer itself) to maintain its preferred and somewhat higher pH.

A SMALL amount of borax CAN be used to thicken a lye-neutral or a superfatted soap, but it is NOT REQUIRED. If a soaper does this by blindly following someone else's recipe without understanding the process, the risk of clouding and separation is fairly high. 

Do I use borax in my soap? No. I like the KISS (keep it simple, soaper!) method I've learned from Susie and IL, and I choose to not add complexity to this process by using borax or other thickeners.


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## Persofit (Apr 29, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> What makes you think that's oil on the bottom? Looks like it just needs more water.



Your right its melted soap on the bottom.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 29, 2016)

Persofit said:


> Your right its melted soap on the bottom.



It takes a good amount of water to dissolve a high-olive liquid soap. If you homogenize the mixture by grating or stick blending, the excess soap will separate as that foamy goop on top. Add water very gradually, especially when there's not much goop left, to get the thickest soap. Borax will allow a little less water if you don't overdo it, but at this point you want to blend and lower the borax concentration so it doesn't cloud.

There are countless ways to make bar soap, but when you post here about liquid soap you have to conform to dogma. Sodium lactate is the only authorized thickener. From now on we are to make liquid soap as per the posted instructions.


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## Persofit (Apr 29, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> It takes a good amount of water to dissolve a high-olive liquid soap. If you homogenize the mixture by grating or stick blending, the excess soap will separate as that foamy goop on top. Add water very gradually, especially when there's not much goop left, to get the thickest soap. Borax will allow a little less water if you don't overdo it, but at this point you want to blend and lower the borax concentration so it doesn't cloud.
> 
> There are countless ways to make bar soap, but when you post here about liquid soap you have to conform to dogma. Sodium lactate is the only authorized thickener. From now on we are to make liquid soap as per the posted instructions.



Thanks for that info for diluting high-olive LS, your absolutely right about that foamy goop on top, im trying to get that gooy stuff disolved still.


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## Susie (Apr 29, 2016)

Dilute with small amounts, allowing time for it to penetrate the soap.  Then write down how much it took.  Then you will know for future reference.


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## Persofit (Apr 30, 2016)

This is my dilution without Borax


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## Persofit (Apr 30, 2016)

This is my newly diluted soap with half of the cloudy mixture with Borax ( Half and half )


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## Persofit (Apr 30, 2016)

So the problem was the Borax


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 30, 2016)

Persofit said:


> So the problem was the Borax



I was hoping that blending the two would be sufficient if you let the mixture sit for a while. If not, we still need to try and fix your soap. I would suggest a test that's not very exact, but it's easy and safe and could point in the right direction.

Take a small drinking glass and fill it about half full of the 50/50 soap mixture. With googles* and gloves on, get a KOH chip on a stainless steel spoon and drop it into the soap. Use the spoon to give the soap a brief stir to submerge the chip, then leave the spoon in there.

You can take off the safety gear once you've got the KOH stowed.

Unlike putting it in water, the dry KOH in soap is a no-drama thing. It will take some time to incorporate. Occasionally come back and give it a brief stir. Gradually it will seem to melt and then disappear.

We want to see if additional alkali has an effect on the clarity.

* goggles.


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## Persofit (Apr 30, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I was hoping that blending the two would be sufficient if you let the mixture sit for a while. If not, we still need to try and fix your soap. I would suggest a test that's not very exact, but it's easy and safe and could point in the right direction.
> 
> Take a small drinking glass and fill it about half full of the 50/50 soap mixture. With googles* and gloves on, get a KOH chip on a stainless steel spoon and drop it into the soap. Use the spoon to give the soap a brief stir to submerge the chip, then leave the spoon in there.
> 
> ...




Hi 
I disolved up to 4 chips of KOH in 250ml of half borax soap and half non-borax 50/50. No clarity just a lighter color yellow.
( when i heat it up it turns clear until the next day its cloudy again)
Any other ideas?


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 30, 2016)

Persofit said:


> Hi
> I disolved up to 4 chips of KOH in 250ml of half borax soap and half non-borax 50/50. No clarity just a lighter color yellow.
> ( when i heat it up it turns clear until the next day its cloudy again)
> Any other ideas?



Plenty of ideas as long as you want to keep trying. I just don't know what exactly would work.

How long since you added the KOH? The results aren't instant, so it should probably sit overnight before evaluating the results. If it changed color then something might be happening.

If it's definitely a bust after waiting, I would get a thin film of the soap on a fingertip and test for zap. If it's negative, you can try more KOH. If low pH is causing the cloudiness, there should be some amount of alkali that will overcome the buffering of the borax.

You could continue testing KOH with just half the sample and add the other half little by little to non-borax soap (keep track of the weights) to see how it much it takes to cloud the solution.

Something to try later or separately is whether glycerin is helpful as a solvent since I don't recall you used any at the beginning.


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## Persofit (May 1, 2016)

News update,
The soap thats clear in the picture above ( no borax ) turned cloudy the 2nd day, so i guess the problem is with the paste. I am going to make a small batch with the same oils and see if it turns out.


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## Persofit (May 6, 2016)

A little observation, the soap that is mixed 50/50 cleared up a bit after sitting for a week.


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## Persofit (May 15, 2016)

Hello, 
Here is my new batch with the same oils as the last batch and its nice and clear ( just a little to liquid ) but not bad. Conclusion it was definitely the the borax that made my last batch so cloudy. 
Thanks for all your help ( I hope i get the next batch thicker )

Michael


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## Susie (May 15, 2016)

Your view is breathtaking!  I just had to say that!

Congratulations on the clear soap!

If you have not already, consider trying IrishLass' recipe, it is nice and thick.  I typically mix the KOH with half the weight in water, or you can do a third, then mix the glycerin in with the oils. 

It is in post #8:  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114&highlight=liquid+glycerin+soap


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