# Liquid soap separation / experimentation



## peace-love-and-suds (Nov 12, 2018)

Hi guys.  I decided to change up a recipe for liquid soap and experiment with superfatting at 15% with the following:

60% hemp seed
25% coconut
15% Castor

This was probably a mistake, although an interesting experience.  Take a look at the pics for more details, but it seems like the soap kept separating into a fatty layer on the top (I'm assuming the free floating fatty acids?).  I tried scooping most of it out and it seems to have made some relatively good soap with some transparency (although transparency wasn't my goal here per say).  I do usually superfat with castor, but this time wanted to see what would happen with other oils.  I've also noticed that mica's don't seem to mix very well with liquid soap.  It keeps separating out and floating to the top while a portion of uncolored soap goes to the bottom.  I noticed that when coloring, the free fatty acids color with one shade while the rest color a different shade.  Might make an interesting experimental project to try to swirl these colors together and keep them from separating in two opposing directions (top/bottom).  Perhaps an emulsifier of some sort would do the trick?  Anyway, not my intent, just an interesting observation if anyone else wanted to experiment with it.  My question is this:  what happened to this batch?  Are mica's not supposed to work well with liquid soap?  why is it separating and what is the separation?  When I scooped it all off the top and put it all in another pot, it made something else entirely.  And it colored differently than the others.  Perhaps this "harvest" of free fatty acids is desirable in some way?  Maybe it would make a good conditioner?

luckily I only colored a small portion of the main batch in case it didn't work out well.  You can see the separation on the uncolored pic at the top.  It is foamy looking, but alcohol does not get rid of it.  It is thick, stubborn like the paste, but not paste.  This layer I scooped off the top was that which I was referring to as conditioner.  I forgot to mention that I used borax and a very small amount of salt.  I also used 8 oz of glycerin.  The paste was 5 pounds and the water ratio was about 2:1, although I boiled it down to a thicker ratio.

I'm thinking water based colorant like food coloring is the only way to go.


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## msunnerstood (Nov 12, 2018)

usually when a thick layer forms on top, you need more water. Superfat though, can cause cloudiness. Mica doesnt mix well with Liquid soap.. not too many colorants do.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 12, 2018)

_"...superfatting at 15%..."_

There's your problem. You can't put that much extra fat in liquid soap. The rule of thumb is no more than 3% superfat in liquid soap. If you want to play around with emulsifiers, such as polysorbate 80, you might be able to use more superfat. Or use a water soluble fat.

Micas are particulate colors; they do not dissolve like dye colorants do. Micas will separate out because the liquid soap can't keep them in suspension.


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## peace-love-and-suds (Nov 12, 2018)

msunnerstood said:


> usually when a thick layer forms on top, you need more water. Superfat though, can cause cloudiness. Mica doesnt mix well with Liquid soap.. not too many colorants do.


This isn't the same that happens when you are trying to dissolve the paste into the water is it?  The soap I poured into those bottles was perfectly uniform with no layering until it sat for a day.  Still more water?


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## msunnerstood (Nov 12, 2018)

I missed the 15% superfat, yeah thats going to cause issues like clouding and separating.

If the stuff floating on the top feels like soap paste, Try taking a bit out and seeing if it feels like oils, or if its thick and soapy, sticky.  if it feels like paste then yes, more water but just add a little at a time and see if it starts to loosen or blend in.


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## Susie (Nov 14, 2018)

Not only is your 15% superfat an issue, why did you use borax?  You sure did not need to neutralize it.  You may do well to try making a simple liquid soap with 0-3% superfat and NO additives.  No borax, no salt, no mica.  And NO cooking!  

I would also advise you read this thread:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soaping-101-liquid-soapmaking-video.46114/

I know it is a bear, but do read at least the first 50 posts or so.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 14, 2018)

Oh, gosh, I missed the borax part. Yeah, that's a problem too. You've got sharp eyes, @Susie!


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## peace-love-and-suds (Nov 16, 2018)

> Not only is your 15% superfat an issue, why did you use borax? You sure did not need to neutralize it. You may do well to try making a simple liquid soap with 0-3% superfat and NO additives. No borax, no salt, no mica. And NO cooking!



I have made liquid soap dozens of times and I am familiar with the method for making clear soap at a negative to slight positive superfat number then using castor from there.  As I said in my initial posting, this was an experiment.  With that said, I use borax not to neutralize but to thicken as well.  This batch was particularly stubborn to thicken.  I also used a bit of salt.  

What about borax was the problem here DeeAnna?


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## peace-love-and-suds (Nov 16, 2018)

just read the post.  wow, totally new method for me.  I have always just used a modified version of  Failor's method.  I'm going to try this next time.  Thanks for sharing.  And yes, what a beast of a post.  Is it worth reading through the 40 something tabs?


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## DeeAnna (Nov 16, 2018)

Borax acts as an acid when added to liquid soap -- it's used to neutralize excess alkali. Yes, it can also thicken, but IMO that's its secondary function. 

If you don't have excess alkali, the borax will break the soap molecules apart and increase the free fatty acid content. The extra fatty acids essentially increase the superfat.

So if you don't have excess alkali and don't need more superfat, don't add borax to liquid soap. Or citric acid. Or any other acid. There are other ways to thicken liquid soap without the risk of also decomposing the soap.


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