# M&P question; Are Soap Base Chips Fully Cured at Purchas



## welder (Dec 18, 2008)

Hi everyone.

I was comparing the different strengths & weaknesses between HP & CP soaping methods when I got an idea about what might be a totally new way to make soap that has the good points of both HP & CP soapmaking.

From what I've read, HP is much faster than CP and helps soapers to avoid soap batch seizure because the EOs are added after saponification is nearly complete. To me this seems to suggest a link between the EOs and unreacted lye that hasn't had time to fully react yet. 

Some feel that the downside with the HP is that the bars aren't generally as smooth as CP bars.

It dawned on me that a soaper might be able to get the convenient fast batch completion speed of HP AND the very smooth bar texture of CP, all in the same process.

It all hinges on whether M&P soap bar texture is as nice and smooth as CP bar texture.

The significance of this last point is that perhaps a commercial soaper could expedite their product delivery date by treating the HP batch as nothing more than a way to quickly produce fully cured M&P soap base chips.  

An HP batch could be weighed out, cooked off, poured into molds, cured for only one week, demolded, chipped, melted together with EOs & dyes and smoothly poured into the final moulding in only 8 days. 

If I'm right, in only 9 or 10 days basic ingredients could be transformed into fully cured soap bars ready for market that were as smooth as CP bars.




As stated in this threads'  title, my question is: 

Are M&P chips fully cured when M&P soapers buy them???

The reason I'm asking this in reference to my idea of expediting commercial soamaking is that our forums'  "how to"  section recommends curing finished M&P for an additional 3 to 4 weeks after rebatching.

Here's a link to our "how to" sections' page on M&P method:

http://soapmakingforum.com/how-to-make- ... -soap.html



That leads me to believe that the M&P chips mentioned in the "how to" section were made via CP, not HP, because HP soap is theoretically finished reacting as it leaves the soap pot, or at least very shortly afterwards.

Can anyone tell me whether M&P chips are made by CP or HP???


----------



## ChrissyB (Dec 18, 2008)

Hi Welder, while I am no expert on this subject by a long shot, I think that I can answer your question.
Melt and Pour (MP)soap product is fully cured on purchase because to achieve a clear/transparent soap you have to cook it. (HP)
Transparent/clear soap is made by re-batching a previous batch of soap, and melting it back down and cooking it off with high proof alcohol, sugar and glycerine. So the end product is sort of both CP/HP. Do a search on clear soap, you'll get lots of into. The theory is that MP, is basically melt, pour, set, unmould, use. BUT I would think that if you add extra fluids (oils, milks, waters) to the melted soap, then you still have to have some curing time to let those fluids evaporate. Hopefully someone will come along that can answer this for you better than I can.


----------



## heartsong (Dec 18, 2008)

*x*

this was some time ago, but i bought a m&p kit at a hobby store.  after i SMOKED my first attempt at soap in the microwave-i decided to slice up the rest and just use it in the shower.  it was fine.


----------



## carebear (Dec 18, 2008)

MP soaps are not just chopped up CP or HP soap.  It's a different animal.

If you want to chop and melt CP/HP soap and melt it you are rebatching and it's unlikely (tho not impossible) to get a smooth result.  But this will still need a significant cure period (2 weeks) to allow the moisture to evaporate.


----------



## welder (Dec 18, 2008)

carebear said:
			
		

> If you want to chop and melt CP/HP soap and melt it you are rebatching and it's unlikely (tho not impossible) to get a smooth result.  But this will still need a significant cure period (2 weeks) to allow the moisture to evaporate.



Thanks Carebear.

I guess that when I read the word "cure", I tend to take the term in its litteral chemistry meaning, rather than the M&P soaper slang term.

To me, curing is a chemical process of allowing complete chemical reaction, not a period of evaporation.

I think in CP, "curing" refers to actual chemical curing (saponification), whereas in M&P soaping, the term "curing" is meant to refer to drying instead.

Am I right?


----------



## carebear (Dec 18, 2008)

Nope.  

The cure period of CP initially involves (we think) some additional saponification, but evaporation of excess water is very important during that period as well.

For MP soap there IS no cure.  MP soap actually needs NO cure period at all.  You can sell it the day you make the soap.

Rebatched soap (melting and re-molding CP soap) really benefits from a cure period to allow for the evaporation because it not only hardens during that time but shrinks - sometimes considerably.


----------



## Deda (Dec 18, 2008)

Saponification is the chemical reaction between oil and lye.  The process only takes 24 - 48 hours.   After that there is no lye left in your soap.  The_ cure_ is when the water evaporates, your soap gets milder and harder.  There is no need to cure MP, it can be used immediately, or sealed within 24 hours.


----------



## ChrissyB (Dec 18, 2008)

Geez thanks Deda and Carebear...I said I hoped someone would come along that could answer that question better than I did. I think I sort of get half marks, no?


----------



## welder (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for the correction Carebear.



			
				carebear said:
			
		

> Nope.
> 
> For MP soap there IS no cure.  MP soap actually needs NO cure period at all.  You can sell it the day you make the soap.



Well, I'm just a newbie after all, so what do I know.

I didn't make up what I was saying, it is found in step 5 right here:

http://soapmakingforum.com/how-to-make- ... -soap.html

Unfortunately I got confused because the curing info in step 5 of the M&P section of our forum directly contradicts what you are saying. They recomend 3 to 4 weeks for curing M&P soaps . 

Maybe they made a mistake when they wrote that.


----------



## welder (Dec 19, 2008)

Deda said:
			
		

> Saponification is the chemical reaction between oil and lye.  The process only takes 24 - 48 hours.   After that there is no lye left in your soap.



Thanks for the info Deda.

Does this mean that since water is safe to apply to our skin, that after 24-48 hours all soaps made by any normal method are safe to use?

I mean, since water evaporation is the only thing happening after 48 hours of curing, then surely using a bar of soap that's 49 hours old should be safe, right?


----------



## carebear (Dec 19, 2008)

welder said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I got confused because the curing info in step 5 of the M&P section of our forum directly contradicts what you are saying. They recommend 3 to 4 weeks for curing M&P soaps .


how odd

And I'm not Deda, but yes soap is safe within 48 hours (or longer perhaps if it didn't gel) but it's not its best.

Some believe (I do) that trace amounts of lye are still being consumed by continued saponification for about 2 weeks.  I have no technical proof but I've found that soaps are significantly more "mellow" or less drying after about that long.  During that time evaporation occurs.  The next 2 weeks is for more evaporation.

This is how *I* understand it from my research and my experience.


----------



## Deda (Dec 19, 2008)

carebear said:
			
		

> welder said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What she said!

Carebear is right.  Because I use no heat in my soapmaking - other than an initail heating when I masterbatch my oils - I don't use mine for testing for 5 to 6 days.  Heat speeds up saponification, cold soaping slows it down.


----------



## welder (Dec 19, 2008)

carebear said:
			
		

> welder said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, it is odd.

For a total newbie like me, confusion comes rather easilly. With no experience to guide me, all I have is technical reference info and personal forum advice.

I'm going to assume that you are right and the forums' authors made a small error in their "how to" guide.

No big deal anyway, I just wanted to be safe.  I'd hate to have my wife or toddler burn themselves off of some soap I hadn't reacted/cured fully.

I also think that there is a tiny bit of unreacted lye left in uncured soap. I'm thinking that it's super small like less than 1/10 of a percentage point. Just enough to justify at least a week of cure even for HP batches.


----------



## welder (Dec 19, 2008)

Deda said:
			
		

> Carebear is right.
> 
> Because I use no heat in my soapmaking - other than an initail heating when I masterbatch my oils - I don't use mine for testing for 5 to 6 days.



I'm really torn between HP speed and CP ease of processing.

I'm starting a soap business with my sister-in-law in Ghana, West Africa, so all my soap batches will all solely based on whatever oils/fats can be found in Ghana.

CP is attractive because my SIL can batch market ready soap faster than CP, but the CP is nice because there isn't the 2 or3 hours of stiring a huge pot of HP soap over a small fire.

I'm thinking that CP will be the best overall choice.


----------



## farmgirl (Dec 19, 2008)

I have an "accidental discovery" that speeds my soap along nicely.  I begin as in CP, and then cook the soap on low heat til it separates.  Keep stirring till it looks like applesauce.  Then, stir really fast (usually by hand, but can use ny SB if the soap is not too thick) till the soap starts getting a creamy or "vaseline" type consistency.  Then, i put the soap into a flat mold, such as a shoe box, and keep stirring keeping it creamy, and cooling it at the same time.  Then I add my scents and colors, and let it be for 12 hours or more.  The was i discovered this is by having my oils too hot once when i added my lye.  It cooked, whether I wanted it to or not.  Worked out beautifully.  Yesterday I had the same incident.  I mixed a batch of CP soap to trace, and poured part of it and colored and scented with peppermint EO.  While I was working on the peppermint soap, the soap in the pot was still very warm, and turning lumpy.  I stirred it like crazy and poured 2/3 of it inot the mold, and scented it.  I took the other 1/3 (still in the pot) and added blue mica and stirred like crazy again.  Then I poured the blue soap on top of the tan soap already in the mold.  It's BEAUTIFUL!  I cut it late today, and it is beige on the bottom, with a very pale blue middle, and a slightly darker blue top.  It's "chunky" on top, as that is the way I made it on purpose.  (I waited for it to set a bit, then manipulated the tp with a plastic spoon)  The inside of the soap is smooth as butter (not typical HP...looks more like CP)...so,    it is my thought that this is a lightly cooked hp, right?  It already tests negative for active lye.  Any thoughts on this?


----------



## welder (Dec 19, 2008)

farmgirl said:
			
		

> I have an "accidental discovery" that speeds my soap along nicely.
> 
> It's BEAUTIFUL!
> 
> Any thoughts on this?



Congratulations Farmgirl!

A few days ago, I actually had thought about trying to hybrid the two main processes together also.  Sort of like simply cooking a CP batch for a little while, then pouring it before it gets thick like a fully reacted HP batch.

The fact that you've succeeded proves it can be done well.

I'd love to see some pics of your new creation!


----------



## farmgirl (Dec 19, 2008)

ARGH!  I went to take pictures of the soaps, and wouldn't you know it.....camera batteries died.  Will try again over the weekend.  This "partial" Hp (or whatever we will call it) has happened to me twice now.  Once with the blue and white soap (DH suggested calling it "Blue Lagoon"!...great idea!)  and once with an unscented Goat's Milk recipe.  Both batches are smooth and silky, like cured CP.  I think this might be a great way to combine the best of HP and CP.  Sort of a "middle ground" between the two.


----------



## farmgirl (Dec 20, 2008)

Here are a couple of pics of my "Blue Lagoon" soaps.  These are 2 days old.  Combo CP/HP.  Partially cooked CP...see how smooth it is inside?






I think this might be a great way to speed up CP just a bit.  Soap still needs to dry some, but it tested negative for lye as soon as it hardened!


----------

