# Why is Dr Bronner Baby Mild so soft



## max_ime

Please, has anyone figured out why Dr Bronner liquid soap is non-drying? 
It shouldn't be considering the high % of coconut oil. 
If you look at the order in which the ingredients are listed you can see that there is no way this soap could be this soft on skin, non-drying with the amount of coconut oil present. Even the 2nd oil used (extra Virgin olive) is after the KOH, and after the Essential Oils in the scented versions. So this tells me the soap is likely to be super high in coconut. Olive oil may represent 3-7% of the oils, hemp maybe 2-3 and jojoba 1-2%. They told me they were using Virgin unrefined coconut oil as well and no fractionated.

And they use water and not glycerin, Lisa Bronner said it's 61% water. :-|


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## LBussy

I've tried to take apart some ingredient lists recently and I've come to the conclusion they (lots of folks) may strategically report it wrong.


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## max_ime

is it legal to lie? lol

It is not legal to lie on your ingredient list as far as I understand the law. So far I've had bad result, (skin drying) soap with refined coconut oil, now I bought Virgin organic oils, I will see with my next batch how much of a difference that makes. 

Maybe they lied to me when they said they did not use fractionated, but for the ingredient list I highly doubt they are lying there. It would make sense that fractionated would be less drying to skin since all of the lauric acid is gone..


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## Susie

No, but the federal government is not going to take the time or resources tracking down what could be a 1-2% difference.  So, it becomes what they can get away with.


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## LunaSkye

Why would liquid soap be harder if it utilizes KOH in addition to a lot of CO? I never made a liquid soap with KOH, just a snot-like liquid soap from residual NaOH soap as an experiment.


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## max_ime

not talking about texture here, when I said soft, I meant soft to the skin, in other words : not drying.


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## shunt2011

If you're finding your soap too drying, try lowering the CO.  Too much Co makes a drying soap for some.  That or up your lye discount (superfat) which may help a bit too.


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## Seawolfe

If I'm not mistaken, the OP wants to know how Dr Bronners soap can be so gentle, so moisturizing, with coconut oil listed as the first ingredient. 

I have to admit, it has me stumped as well. Can you highly superfat a liquid soap successfully if you add an emulsifier?


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## max_ime

you are correct and not mistaking, I may be wrong but I don't think the superfat can be much higher than 6% cause otherwise the soap will be cloudy and legally speaking there should not be any emulsifier in dr bronner because it is not listed in the ingredient's list. From my experience with refined coconut oil, upping the superfat %(even up to 40%!!) does not suffice to make the soap non-drying.

It's so weird, nobody on the internet seems to know how to make dr bronner's soap, even if this soap lists only a few ingredients and is widely sold since a long time. It is one of the most popular quality soaps.  Their annual sales are not far from 100 millions US dollars !


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## Susie

OK, just so we are all talking about the same list of ingredients here, I copied the list from the Dr. Bronner's site.

Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Olive Oil*, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
* CERTIFIED FAIR TRADE INGREDIENT
** None remains after saponifying oils into soap and glycerin 

I see more that makes me scratch my head than CO being first oil ingredient.
I have not yet managed to make any liquid soap with more than 5% jojoba oil in it, without it being cloudy.  So, either the jojoba is <5%, or they used something to clear it up.  It has also been neutralized with citric acid.

And, of course, even though CO is the first ingredient, they still call it Castile, even though we all know it is not.


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## LunaSkye

Edit: I looked at the ingredients on the website after reading Susie's post. I doubt Dr Bronners uses more lye than any of the other oils (KOH was the second ingredient listed. With that, they probably use a lot more OO in their soaps.


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## IrishLass

max_ime said:


> Please, has anyone figured out why Dr Bronner liquid soap is non-drying?
> It shouldn't be considering the high % of coconut oil.


 
 Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, 'non-drying' is in the skin of the bather...... or something like that. lol  You may find it to be non-drying to your skin, but I know others who cannot use it because it makes their skin very dry indeed. My brother and my sister-in-law are two that immediately spring to mind that find Dr. Bronner's liquid soap extremely drying. They had bought a huge gallon of it to use in the shower, but found it so drying that they opted to use it to wash their dishes instead (so that it didn't go to waste). lol

 IrishLass


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## Obsidian

I'm the same, Dr. Bronner's is extremly drying to me. Its some of the worse soap I've ever used.


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## Susie

LunaSkye said:


> Edit: I looked at the ingredients on the website after reading Susie's post. I doubt Dr Bronners uses more lye than any of the other oils (KOH was the second ingredient listed. With that, they probably use a lot more OO in their soaps.



I am not smart enough to know how to link, but I am expert at copy/paste!


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## max_ime

LunaSkye said:


> Edit: I looked at the ingredients on the website after reading Susie's post. I doubt Dr Bronners uses more lye than any of the other oils (KOH was the second ingredient listed. With that, they probably use a lot more OO in their soaps.



taking in consideration that the color of the soap is light, and that it does not smell like olive oil soap, it is probable that it does contain less OO than KOH



IrishLass said:


> Just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, 'non-drying' is in the skin of the bather...... or something like that. lol
> IrishLass



The puzzling thing is that I cannot use my own soaps made with CO because they're too drying but I can use Dr Bronner's.  

 I notcied that Dr Bronner I buy is usually 3 - 4 months old.  
 My soap are 2 months old, maybe that is why?
 Or maybe the organic Virgin oils make the difference to some, I used conventional refined.


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## FGOriold

It is quite simple - "Marketing".  There is nothing about Dr. Bonners soap that makes it any different than the liquid soaps without additives we all can make.  They market this one as baby/mild because it has no added fragrance/EO's and such that are added to their other soaps.  Remember, just because a product is marketed a certain way, does not mean squat in reality.

How many products have we all purchased based on "promotional/marketing claims" that failed us?


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## Susie

FGOriold said:


> It is quite simple - "Marketing".  There is nothing about Dr. Bonners soap that makes it any different than the liquid soaps without additives we all can make.  They market this one as baby/mild because it has no added fragrance/EO's and such that are added to their other soaps.  Remember, just because a product is marketed a certain way, does not mean squat in reality.
> 
> How many products have we all purchased based on "promotional/marketing claims" that failed us?



Well said!


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## max_ime

FGOriold, that is for sure!  

I'm telling you their soap doesn't dry my skin, and my attempts at producing a similar soap does.  Just trying to understand how they come up with a soap that pleases me and millions, with CO in high %.  In theory it should be drying?  But anyway I'll just let this thread go the way it will, I'm starting to repeat myself


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## IrishLass

max_ime said:


> I'm telling you their soap doesn't dry my skin, and my attempts at producing a similar soap does.



I hope you didn't get me wrong, for I completely believe you when you say it doesn't dry your skin. I was just trying to point out the fact that individual skin-type plays a major role in how soap feels to our (individual) skin.

For what it's worth, I make a glycerin liquid soap (my creamy cocoa/shea formula) that the same brother and sister-in-law that I mentioned in my above post absolutely love to use, and believe it or not, its main ingredient is coconut oil. lol My sister-in-law loves it so much that I've promised to show her how to make it. She says it's one of the few liquid soaps she can use that doesn't dry her out and make her skin all red and bumpy. Here is my recipe (I don't mind showing it, because I've posted it out in cyberspace a few times before already):

35% coconut oil
30% castor oil
20% cocoa butter
10% olive oil
5% shea butter (refined)

By the time I'm done diluting and adding all my other goodies to it, it ends up with a 7% superfat. For what it's worth, my ingredients list- when all is said and done- looks like the following in decreasing incremental order (although I use equal amounts of a few of the ingredients): Distilled Water, Glycerin, Coconut Oil, Castor Oil, Potassium Hydroxide, Cocoa Butter, Shea Butter, Stearic Acid, Sodium Lactate, Meadowfoam Seed Oil, Tetrasodium EDTA, Polysorbate 80, Fragrance. 


IrishLass


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## Booko

Well, Kirk's Castile oil isn't castile either.  

I've found Dr. Bronner's to be unusally helpful when I had to call about ingredients and how they were sourced, so I'd be surprised if their label was intentionally inaccurate.


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## bodhi

I have a few ideas and a few provens and its quite possible that there ingredient list is accurate, but it may all boil down to the fact that legally they dont have to list all their ingredients - so there may be something else in there.


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## max_ime

bodhi said:


> I have a few ideas and a few provens and its quite possible that there ingredient list is accurate, but it may all boil down to the fact that legally they dont have to list all their ingredients - so there may be something else in there.




That is true as well.  However once you are certified organic like Dr Bronner it may be a bit trickier.   So far, if this is the case that the do not list all the ingredients, I would guess they use some or maybe a lot of fractionated CO along with virgin CO so that there isn't too much lauric acid.  Any other ideas?


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## bodhi

certified organic doesnt mean much though so i wouldnt bet on that having much to do with it.  I would think there are other things in there and that they make it in 2 or more batches.


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## max_ime

any guess of yours on what these other things are?  why in 2 batches?


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## Booko

bodhi said:


> certified organic doesnt mean much though so i wouldnt bet on that having much to do with it.  I would think there are other things in there and that they make it in 2 or more batches.



True.  Certified organic products might have to tell you there's sodium lactate as an ingredient, but whether it's derived from corn or beets they don't have to tell you that.

Also I thought the regs on listing ingredients for non-food products were much looser than for food.


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## max_ime

ok after some research I found out that they used to list aloe vera as an ingredient.  They also listed olive fatty acids (squalane I assume) and I even found a different list which listed glycerin as an ingredient.

So maybe that one of those 3, aloe vera, perhaps as an extract, glycerin from coconut and squalane.  It would make more sense with their current list of ingredient if it was just glycerin.  I never added glycerin to my soap, I do not know if this would improve them enough.


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## Darth

I make a cloudy  OO 85: CO 15 liquid soap with 5% SF that is much more dying than Dr. B.

Is there any way to make Liquid or Bar soap not drying without upping the SF?

Upping the SF is a real pain because it gives that "hard to wash off" feeling that turns people completely off, especially with liquid soap.


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## max_ime

It's good to see I'm not the only one looking for clarity on this.  I don't know why but I had success making a clear LS at 6% SF it is 62% OO (EXTRAVIRGIN), 26% CO (RBD), Avocado oil (refined) 7%, Hemp 3.3% and jojoba (clear) 1.6%
it's a success in the sense that it is clear, but a complete failure because it is very drying, not usable because I'm used to dr Bronner which is nice to my skin.  My soap is more than 2 months old and I doubt it will get to be usable at the 4 months mark.  I have done many experiments using less coconut and more gentle oils and all of my attempts produced a soap that is too drying, so much that I have to keep buying dr Bronner's soap.  I am not willing to use anything more harsh than it.  My body simply disagrees.  I even made some bar soaps at 26% SF, even one at 50%, yes 50% (this one was pure virgin org CO) and it came out as too drying as well, and a bit too soft of course.  Interesting thing is that it was drying even though it did not clean well, like it left my body hairs greasy.

I just got a reply from Dr Bronner and they are telling me that there is no more aloe in their soap and that they do not add extra glycerin.  They omitted to reply to me about the olive fatty acids which were once on their labels.  I asked them more about it, maybe they will reply and I'll let you know.  Olive fatty acids (squalane) might be the thing in there which makes it non-drying, it could very well be just labelled as olive oil as olive contains squalane, so if you add some to your olive oil I guess you could not say it.

I found a source (saffireblue) which says it take less than 5mg of KOH to saponify 1gr of squalane.  So we are talking of an extremely low SAP number here (SAP KOH 0.005).  It is almost totally unsaponifiable,  so it would make sense that by adding about 2-5% of this to a soap recipe that the soap would become the best ever, would you agree?   I guess not since I searched over the internet and adding squalane in a soap recipe seems to be unheard of. Some talk about lotions but never soap.

I do not know how old is this version of their soap, but it must be prior to 2008 (when I started using their soap)  got the pic from ebay, it's actually on sale from an old stock.


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## FGOriold

If olive squalane is added up front with the base oils, then it would be saponified with the rest of the oils and not create a superfat.  There are water soluble olive oil esters that can be used to add emoliency and such to liquid soap after dilution to make it more gentle.

Another thing people need to  keep in mind when evaluating how harsh or gentle a soap is, especially when trying to compare them, is the soap concentration.  So many people try to add as little water as possible to their soap to create a thicker product that they don't realize how concentrated a soap they are ending up with.  The more concentrated your liquid soap is, the harsher it will be and you have to  learn to use less of a more concentrated product - no matter what the formula is.


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## max_ime

FGOriold said:


> If olive squalane is added up front with the base oils, then it would be saponified with the rest of the oils and not create a superfat.  There are water soluble olive oil esters that can be used to add emoliency and such to liquid soap after dilution to make it more gentle.



I don't think so because squalane is unsaponifiable, almost completely.  It is very particular.  A 0.005 KOH SAP value tells you there ain't much to be turned into soap there.  It is unsaponifiable.  

I think you are really unto something here.  What are the name of these esters?  PEG-7 olivate? Olivem300? do you know of a good supplier for this?  and have you tried it in soap? I can see how Olive fatty acids on an ingredients list could mean Olive ester as they are fatty acids esters. Maybe someday soon, I'll add all of these positive little things that can make the soap more gentle to my formulas to create the ultimate soap experience. (squalane, Peg-7 olivate, aloe 200x, glycerin) & BOOM! I guess then I would have something quite outstanding.

As far as the concentration, Dr Bronner is 61% water for the liquid (close to solidification point), and 5% water for the bars according to Lisa Bronner.  I took that into consideration already.


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## sephera

I don't understand how Dr Bronners can be soft and non drying, and yet cleans clothes my delicates without residue. But it's not tough on stains that the only problem. I have to use a separate stain bar which I'm trying to make. I love using Almond and Rose one as a face cleanser, body wash and shampoo. 

Does anyone at all have a rough idea of % of ingredients and superfat amounts. Otherwise have may a dupe. PH is about 8.5 for the baby one. I guess it's a trade secret.

Does anyone have a hack to make Liquid soap close to Dr bronners I just love their soap. 

It's cutting enough to wash clothes and other things and gentle enough for hands and body wash.


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## Susie

I don't care for Dr. B's soaps, they are way to stripping for my hands.  And not good enough to really clean my laundry.  There are several threads that contain good recipes.  I suggest a 100% CO, 0% SF for laundry.  I also suggest IL's LGS for hands, her recipe/method gives awesome results, look at post #8:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114


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## Dahila

I use it in my bug sprays, with essential oils, of course not on me, but the veggies and flowers.  It works with combination of EO for spider spray.  I used DR bronner diluted on my skin, and I could almost hear my skin cracking.  I tried to use it in Foaming pomp bottle , the same,  My liquid soap (thanks to Susie and Irishlass) is not drying. 
Even my gardener soap with 30% of coconut and pumice , is not as drying as Dr. Bronner soaps are,  I have somewhere few of his bars, no one wants to use it.  A bottle of lemon liquid soap I used for cleaning ...........waste of money
Good marketing will make everyone to say good stuff about it.  It is brainwashing what they do


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## hlecter

I ve never used Dr Bronners liquid soap as it is difficult to be found in my country. I read that many love it but I 've also read others find it harsh on their skin and mainly a marketing trick soap...

I would like to try this soap only to check its lather ability and how it feels on my skin...
Αlso it makes me wonder the fact they dont use any preservative on the label only tocopherol which is an antioxidant not preservative...


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## Dahila

You are in Greece,  I do believe u can buy Dr. Bronner over there, I bet you would not like it,  People who made a soap once do not go back to commercial soaps and Dr. Bronner is comercial soap called Pure Castille , which is bs castille is 100% OO.


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## Arimara

Dahila said:


> You are in Greece,  I do believe u can buy Dr. Bronner over there, I bet you would not like it,  People who made a soap once do not go back to commercial soaps and Dr. Bronner is comercial soap called Pure Castille , which is bs castille is 100% OO.



I have to agree. I only pick up commercial bars to see what is in them. Some of my former bars are actually soap while others have a few extra goodies in them harder water systems. I still want to try a few that I've seen in my drug store since they smell interesting and have and scent undertone not unlike the lye heavy castiles I made a while back.


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## Sapo

My review of B's:

-The lather is exceptional, even 100% CO/0% SF doesn't give the same results, so the combo they use does something right
-The feel is exceptional, once you lather up, it feels full, soft and has a lot of "body"
-Can't say if it's drying or not, because I also can't feel any drying effects when using 100% CO LS. But overall yeah it probably is to some people
-Cleans really well, obviously, high coconut content
-Price is quite steep

I've attempted to figure out what their recipe is (examine label and then process of elimination/trial and error) and it is 70% or more CO. My latest batch is 70/25/5 coconut/olive/hemp and it is still darker than Bronners and lathers/feels a bit more poorly. B's is probably 80% or something CO, small wonder some people find it irritating. Those who don't (like me and some people from this thread) find it to be awesome, for reasons above.

From my point of view, I can see why their formula is popular. Much of their success comes from other sources though, not directly from their soap, as they are quite active in making positive social change, namely towards the end of discrimination/unnecessary violence (fair wages and working conditions, veganism, etc, and people generally like to support companies that are in it for more than just the profit).


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## Dahila

Sapo you made a valid points.  I know about this company, and even with their fairness to workers and environment they are huge company, which is looking at the profit for them.  They seems to care,  but do they help the environment.  I doubt it.  Veganism, maybe it is good but not really for people we eat everything it is our genetic pattern.  I went through 2 years of being only vegetarian and still I had a major problems with my health.  Veganism does not convince me at all. To spend all the energy of preparing the food instead of making my products  is just not effective .  
Dr. Bronner company have a really extensive marketing program in place , when you spend money on selling products, it does not matter if is good or bad, it sells


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## Sapo

Not that kind of forum  but oh well:



> It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. – American Dietetic Association
> 
> A well planned vegan diet can meet all of these needs. It is safe and healthy for pregnant and breastfeeding women, babies, children, teens and seniors. – Dietitians of Canada
> 
> With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs. – The British National Health Service
> 
> A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range. – The British Nutrition Foundation
> 
> Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. They differ to other vegetarian diets in that no animal products are usually consumed or used. Despite these restrictions, with good planning it is still possible to obtain all the nutrients required for good health on a vegan diet. – The Dietitians Association of Australia
> 
> Vegetarian diets can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12. – The United States Department of Agriculture
> 
> Alternatives to animal foods include nuts, seeds, legumes, beans and tofu. For all Australians, these foods increase dietary variety and can provide a valuable, affordable source of protein and other nutrients found in meats. These foods are also particularly important for those who follow vegetarian or vegan dietary patterns. Australians following a vegetarian diet can still meet nutrient requirements if energy needs are met and the appropriate number and variety of serves from the Five Food Groups are eaten throughout the day. For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended. – The National Health and Medical Research Council
> 
> A well-planned vegetarian diet can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them. – The Mayo Clinic
> 
> Vegetarian diets can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits. – The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada



As for Bronners and their activism, some of it is hype, some of it is real. At times they merely donate towards the cause, at times they influence the problem directly (for example addressing the problem of importing materials while the farmers get boned by starting their own fair trade farm). Whatever their contribution may be, it is undeniably better than that of most other companies. We definetly need more of that and even more dedication!

Back on track: I need to get my hands on some jojoba to see what effect it will have on my "Bronners replica recipe attempt", maybe that's the missing link, as I find my LS to be slightly less... lathery/soft to use.


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## Spice

FGOriold said:


> It is quite simple - "Marketing".  There is nothing about Dr. Bonners soap that makes it any different than the liquid soaps without additives we all can make.  They market this one as baby/mild because it has no added fragrance/EO's and such that are added to their other soaps.  Remember, just because a product is marketed a certain way, does not mean squat in reality.
> 
> How many products have we all purchased based on "promotional/marketing claims" that failed us?


There are so many loop holes in ingredient listing that it makes no sense as to why there is even one. The percentages can be manipulated simply by amount added and if the amount added is the same or close to the most added can be listed as one of the first amounts. Blending of EO/fragrance I believe falls under perfumes and don't have to be listed because they are considered "secrets". Channel No5 has no ingredient list. I only read the list to see what is in the product. That's it.  So true, "does not mean squat in reality.":wave::wave:


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## sephera

Hi I think the secret of  Dr BRONNER'S is the extra jojoba and hemp oil added at trace. Jojoba oil is a wax so it doesn't sponify as readily. That is what makes it so soft.


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## Susie

sephera said:


> Hi I think the secret of  Dr BRONNER'S is the extra jojoba and hemp oil added at trace. Jojoba oil is a wax so it doesn't sponify as readily. That is what makes it so soft.



I guarantee you that if you make your own liquid soap with IrishLass' liquid glycerin soap recipe, you will no longer think Dr. B's soap is so soft.


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## Dahila

Sapo for the Dr. Bronner activism and donating money , just remember, when you donate you get to minus it on your taxes.


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## Susie

Dahila said:


> Sapo for the Dr. Bronner activism and donating money , just remember, when you donate you get to minus it on your taxes.



You get to take some of it off your taxes IF you have enough deductions to itemize.  Most Americans don't.

Also, jojoba is going to give you cloudy soap.  Just warning you.


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## leslierodriguez

Hello Everyone. I'm new in this site.

As a body soap, it sucks the moisture right out of me. I would definitely switch to something different. :think:


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## Dahila

Susie said:


> You get to take some of it off your taxes IF you have enough deductions to itemize.  Most Americans don't.
> 
> Also, jojoba is going to give you cloudy soap.  Just warning you.


Susie most Canadians don't too,  Dr. Bronner is the one who can do it, enough of income.  I am happy for him that he can afford it)
When you or I donate it is a donation from heart and from people who actually struggle with finances


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## Sapo

Derp, I'm not American, so I have no idea what you're on about - the taxes here are handled quite differently (Europe - Slovenia).

But yeah, Dr. B's LS is without a doubt *not* milder than IL's recipe or anything similar. The jojoba gets saponified, the 50%ish of it that can be, at least, and the rest filtered out. How can I be so sure? Because the soap is crystal clear, no sediment or anything of the sort, which simply isn't possible with unfiltered jojoba present. Whatever mildness may be present in the soap is not from jojoba marketing tricks but rather from the superfat, IF any of it is present at all.

Heck even an unfiltered Bronners formula is likely harsher than something lower in CO (IL GLS).


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## Susie

leslierodriguez said:


> Hello Everyone. I'm new in this site.
> 
> As a body soap, it sucks the moisture right out of me. I would definitely switch to something different. :think:



Hey, and welcome!  It would be awesome if you would introduce yourself in the introduction forum!

And Dr. B's sucks the moisture right out of me, also.  Tight, dry skin is not my favorite way to start the day.

On another note:

Sapo posted a notice about vegan diets, *"For those eating a vegan diet, supplementation of B12 is recommended. – The National Health and Medical Research Council"*

The problem with vegan diets is that most of the people who eat "vegan" do not have adequate knowledge of what they must eat to get a balanced diet.  

Then you add the perennially busy lifestyle of many people, and you have the issue of "I'll just grab something quick and eat better later." that we are all guilty of.  

Tack onto that the problem that the group most at risk for not taking time to eat properly are women of childbearing age.  Which is the very group that needs all their B vitamins, especially folic acid/folate to prevent birth defects such as neural tube defects.

I am not saying that people can't be healthy if they are vegans, far from it, I am just saying that to be a healthy vegan takes time and real effort to get all the necessary nutrients.  Most people can't or don't put that sort of time into it.  It is not for everyone.


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## Sapo

Don't make the mistake of assuming that vegans are the group with the most widespread lack of nutrition knowledge. While there is potential for failure with plant based diets, so it is for every dietary pattern. Hence charts like these are born - namely, close to half of the causes of death in the States are "diseases of affluence" with dietary factors (animal products and junk food, more often than not both of them in one package) being the primary risk factors. And I assure you vegans represent less than a percent on this chart . Plant based eating with full control over all essential nutrients is a relative no brainer, one need only stick to whole foods (which, as you say, we all fail at regardless of eating patterns, due to craptastic lifestyles and stupidity. Some more than others (which is where the fairy tales of the dangers of plant based diets are born - idiots trying to feed a newborn exclusively apple juice :mrgreen - the media just gobbles that kind of sensationalist crap right up). No otherwise special effort required. Main sources of folate are leafy greens.

As for b12 - it is a bacterial byproduct, whether it is synthesized by bacteria in animal colons (all animals, including humans share this ability) and then the producing animals are ingested by other animals, whether obtained through fecal contamination (where most b12 resides), or whether produced by bacteria in a lab, nothing changes, it remains a bacterial byproduct, and the pill happens to be safest route of obtaining it. As a side note; both me and my old man had practically zero b12 stores (<148 pmol/L) when we got tested. Both meat eaters at the time (he persists, much to his demise (triple stroke recovery)). Much like what happened with iodine in salt, don't be too surprised if you see conventional, "non-vegan" food supplemented with b12 off the bat in the near future, considering 39% of people (nonvegans) are low on it.


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## sephera

Susie said:


> I guarantee you that if you make your own liquid soap with IrishLass' liquid glycerin soap recipe, you will no longer think Dr. B's soap is so soft.



Is it cleansing as well as soft. Like can it be used all purpose? Like laundry, floors etc.


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## Susie

Sapo said:


> Don't make the mistake of assuming that vegans are the group with the most widespread lack of nutrition knowledge.



I am not in any way assuming or suggesting that.  I am a nurse.  I know better.  And I know well the diseases of affluence. I was, and am, in no fashion disparaging of the vegetarian or vegan diets.  The exact opposite it true.  However, since you chose this forum (for whatever reason) to post that, I felt it necessary to caution our less educated about the nutritional issues that face vegans that education and planning were a necessary element.  I apologize if you thought I was in any fashion saying that it is not a healthy diet.  I was not.  

I do, however, have to question why you thought that this is an appropriate thread, or indeed the correct forum, to post such.  I would think that if you felt it necessary to expound on a vegan lifestyle, the general chat would have been a more appropriate place than hijacking someone's thread.



sephera said:


> Is it cleansing as well as soft. Like can it be used all purpose? Like laundry, floors etc.



It is cleansing as well as soft.  However, if you want to use a soap for laundry, floors, etc, it needs to be a very different recipe.  And that recipe will be stripping to the skin.  You can make that soap with 100% Coconut Oil.  Use gloves to clean with it, though.


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## Sapo

Susie said:


> I am not in any way assuming or suggesting that.  I am a nurse.  I know better.  And I know well the diseases of affluence. I was, and am, in no fashion disparaging of the vegetarian or vegan diets.  The exact opposite it true.  However, since you chose this forum (for whatever reason) to post that, I felt it necessary to caution our less educated about the nutritional issues that face vegans that education and planning were a necessary element.  I apologize if you thought I was in any fashion saying that it is not a healthy diet.  I was not.
> 
> I do, however, have to question why you thought that this is an appropriate thread, or indeed the correct forum, to post such.  I would think that if you felt it necessary to expound on a vegan lifestyle, the general chat would have been a more appropriate place than hijacking someone's thread.



Small world, I'm a registered nurse . And I didn't think you were bashing, your message was clear enough! I didn't start this to be honest , it started with me saying how activism, rather than marketing, was the reason for B's success (well at least according to, ironically, B themselves (reverse marketing psychology at work :O?), where veganism was only mentioned in a single word inside of a bracket. Upon deliberate resistance to the mention, I did reply (guilty), but even said "Not the right kind of forum...but oh well:". Hijacking was not on my mind, tried to avoid it, and fully support that the specific conversation die out.

BTW Susie, ever compared B's for laundry with 100% CO? I mean B's CO has to be quite insanely high, you really think it would underperform?


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## Susie

Sapo said:


> BTW Susie, ever compared B's for laundry with 100% CO? I mean B's CO has to be quite insanely high, you really think it would underperform?



Try it yourself and see.  I was never a big fan of Dr. B's, and the prices are, indeed, insane.  But I would overwhelmingly use my 100% CO, 0% Superfat over his any day just on results.  

I'm glad to see more nurses on here.  I think we bring a real down to earth practicality to the forum.


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## Sapo

Been fiddling with the prices a bit lately and found nothing drastic about B prices to be honest. One 100g bar equates around 250ml of LS, in terms of soap content.

Average bar of soap, 100g: around 4-5€, non-organic
B's 500ml bottle: around 14-15€, organic and fair trade certified

Purely from a soap perspective, 9-11€/bottle would've mean't more accurate pricing (soap content+a bit of extra due to extra packaging and production costs). However the extra few bucks for ethical sourcing of ingredients doesn't seem that much of a big deal at all, considering just how bad "third world" farmers have it on our behalf - the consumer's behalf. Similarly, it's why I will never even remotely consider buying castor oil (western farmers have long stopped growing and producing everything castor, due to it's toxicity (both to farmers and the environment). We want the benefits, but none of the negativity, heh, pass.

Trailed off again, my bad.

But yeah, their standard recipe is definetly trying to be a "jack of all trades", it will inevitably not be as good at everything as more specialized soaps.


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## aeiou_-

A random question, now that you are all on the subject of Dr. Bronner's.. I noticed that some of their soaps are marketed as Hemp "pure castille, etc.".  When I've looked at the ingredients, it seems that Hemp is the oil that is used the least in those soaps, even less than some of the other smaller portioned ingredients.. The soap is mostly made of coconut oil.
Is there something I am missing? or is this purely marketing genius?


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## Sapo

Hemp is probably used somewhere around 4-5% tops (likely less, considering the color, I think...), slightly more quantity than jojoba, if you count that as part of the oils. If you've truly seen it being marketed as some sort of hemp oil-based soap, it's purely marketing.

Quite common practice, no one really advertises by the main ingredient, heh. How many times have you seen a synthetic shampoo with 0.1% avocado oil labeled as "avocado shampoo" ?

Heck, what is "garlic mash potatoes" if not 99.5% potato and 0.5% garlic :mrgreen:?


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## sephera

Susie said:


> It is cleansing as well as soft.  However, if you want to use a soap for laundry, floors, etc, it needs to be a very different recipe.  And that recipe will be stripping to the skin.  You can make that soap with 100% Coconut Oil.  Use gloves to clean with it, though.



Cool thanks I am mainly after an all purpose personal care soap hands, body, hair, face, and maybe the odd delicate laundry item hand Washed. 

But I find Dr Bronners works fairly well for lightly soiled silks, wools and  socks, hosiery etc


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## freesia792

*Could this be why it's so mild?*

Citric Acid
Make a gentler soap by using citric acid to lower the pH of handmade soap. Citric acid is commonly extracted from citrus fruits and used to create the fizzing in bath bombs and the tart white powdery coating on sour gummy candies. Appears as an acidic dry powder. 2 ounces net weight.
Instructions: Dissolve 1 part citric acid in 4 parts distilled water. After the formation of soap crystals in cold process soap (trace) or after cooking hot process soap, add the citric acid-water mixture at up to 1% of the weight of the fats. A small amount is very effective and too much can alter the saponification reaction


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## Scooter

freesia792 said:


> Citric Acid
> Make a gentler soap by using citric acid to lower the pH of handmade soap. Citric acid is commonly extracted from citrus fruits and used to create the fizzing in bath bombs and the tart white powdery coating on sour gummy candies. Appears as an acidic dry powder. 2 ounces net weight.
> Instructions: Dissolve 1 part citric acid in 4 parts distilled water. After the formation of soap crystals in cold process soap (trace) or after cooking hot process soap, add the citric acid-water mixture at up to 1% of the weight of the fats. A small amount is very effective and too much can alter the saponification reaction



Do you have a lot of experience with this? I am a newbie, completely, so I may not quite understand how CP works, but if you add this at trace will it not neutralize some of the NaOH?


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## LBussy

Scooter said:


> Do you have a lot of experience with this? I am a newbie, completely, so I may not quite understand how CP works, but if you add this at trace will it not neutralize some of the NaOH?


Yes, it will.


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## Dahila

freesia792 said:


> Citric Acid
> Make a gentler soap by using citric acid to lower the pH of handmade soap. Citric acid is commonly extracted from citrus fruits and used to create the fizzing in bath bombs and the tart white powdery coating on sour gummy candies. Appears as an acidic dry powder. 2 ounces net weight.
> Instructions: Dissolve 1 part citric acid in 4 parts distilled water. After the formation of soap crystals in cold process soap (trace) or after cooking hot process soap, add the citric acid-water mixture at up to 1% of the weight of the fats. A small amount is very effective and too much can alter the saponification reaction



You are wrong, citric acid works as chellator in soaps, it has nothing to do with lowering the Ph.  soap is from 9-12 ph and lowering the ph will leave you with nothing but a glob of fats. when adding Citric acid and not adding lye, you just get higher superfat of that soap,  I think 10 g of CA neutralise 6 g of Naoh


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

It's also a tiny amount suggested here. I use 2% citric acid alone to make the sodium citrate in my soaps. So 1% of a solution with 20% citric acid will be really low


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## Dahila

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=538270&highlight=chelant#post538270 post by DeeAnna #62 will explain everything about workings of CA


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## debra062013

This question has to do with Bonner and all LS. At an event on Sat. I had a lady tell me she uses LS because there is no lye in LS. But KOH is used is that not a "lye" or a caustic agent used in Bonners and  other LS?

I made a 100% CO soap and it was so wonderful when washing my hands. About 10 mins later I need lotion it was so drying. So I suppose we are all different which soap both bar or LS .


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

"Lye" is a caustic solution. Can be made with NaOH, KOH or whatever - they would all be lye


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## debra062013

Thanks that is what I thought. She told me her husband uses bar soap and it turns out he uses Fels.   So I offered a sample and wished them a great day .




The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> "Lye" is a caustic solution. Can be made with NaOH, KOH or whatever - they would all be lye


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## dschiavo

*Vitamin E perhaps?*

I make a mild liquid soap similar to Bronner's (not as thin), CO is less than 10% of oils, the rest is EVOO and the result is a very softening soap (great face wash).  If I have to guess, hemp and jojoba would be a very small percentage as well.  Maybe the Vitamin E adds that extra softness - I will try it it my next batch


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## Margo

Hello, did you read all the chemicals that are in their products? They claim to make Castile soap, but it's not authentic Castile soap. They are soooo wrong. I make my own, natural shampoos and soaps which contain no detergents

No need for citric acid in my soaps which have a ph of 7


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## sephera

dschiavo said:


> I make a mild liquid soap similar to Bronner's (not as thin), CO is less than 10% of oils, the rest is EVOO and the result is a very softening soap (great face wash).  If I have to guess, hemp and jojoba would be a very small percentage as well.  Maybe the Vitamin E adds that extra softness - I will try it it my next batch


Sounds good do you care to share?


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## Susie

Margo said:


> No need for citric acid in my soaps which have a ph of 7



That is not possible.  To lower the pH that low, you would break your soap into fatty acids floating over an alkali solution.  How are you measuring the pH?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Or share this magically recipe. Dr Kevin Dunn is begging for people who have a pH7 soap to send one to him for testing


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## sephera

Hi if soap is PH 7 it ceases to be soap right? Dove beauty bar is 7.


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## Susie

sephera said:


> Hi if soap is PH 7 it ceases to be soap right? Dove beauty bar is 7.



The subject here is* liquid* soap.  And Dove Beauty Bar contains more than soap:

http://www.dove.com/us/en/washing-and-bathing/beauty-bar/white-beauty-bar.html

Ingredients 
*Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate*, Stearic Acid, Sodium Tallowate Or Sodium Palmitate, Lauric Acid, *Sodium Isethionate*, Water, Sodium Stearate, *Cocamidopropyl Betaine*, Sodium Cocoate Or Sodium Palm Kernelate, Fragrance, Sodium Chloride,* Tetrasodium Edta*, *Tetrasodium Etidronate*, Titanium Dioxide (Ci 77891).


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## topofmurrayhill

freesia792 said:


> Citric Acid
> Make a gentler soap by using citric acid to lower the pH of handmade soap. Citric acid is commonly extracted from citrus fruits and used to create the fizzing in bath bombs and the tart white powdery coating on sour gummy candies. Appears as an acidic dry powder. 2 ounces net weight.
> Instructions: Dissolve 1 part citric acid in 4 parts distilled water. After the formation of soap crystals in cold process soap (trace) or after cooking hot process soap, add the citric acid-water mixture at up to 1% of the weight of the fats. A small amount is very effective and too much can alter the saponification reaction



I can confirm that the basic idea has some practical validity in making liquid soap.

It makes a difference whether you add the acid at the beginning or at the end. At the beginning it will create potassium citrate and cause less oil to be saponified. At the end it could reverse the saponification reaction to an extent and release free fatty acids. If you are making liquid soap with no lye discount, it could also scavenge any excess potassium hydroxide. This suggestion is to add it after saponification.

I have heard a myth that pH strips don't work properly with soap. They work as well with soap as with anything. They are more approximate than some other methods but quite functional and potentially useful. It's a rather good idea to be familiar with the normal pH of the recipes you make, especially if you work with no lye discount. That way if you are working with new oils or especially if you change your potassium hydroxide source, you can make sure that nothing is out of whack. Depending on the source, the purity of KOH can vary across a range of about 10 points, and you can't necessarily depend on the supplier to tell you what you're buying. 

In have not used citric acid for these purposes. I use an 88% lactic acid solution, but the principle is the same and the result is potassium lactate. I have used it to correct a slight lye excess, and I have also tried it to change the pH after the soap is made. I don't know what the exact limit is, but I can go from pH 10 down to 9 with no impact on the clarity or lathering properties of the product.


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## IrishLass

topofmurrayhill said:


> I have heard a myth that pH strips don't work properly with soap. They work as well with soap as with anything. They are more approximate than some other methods but quite functional and potentially useful.


 
Would you be willing to elaborate in more detail on what you mean your above statements? I'm asking because the information I have in my notes (albeit second hand sourced from Kathy Miller's site: http://www.millersoap.com/phtome.html) mentions that pH strips can often be unreliable with soap because the surfactant nature of soap can throw the indicators of some pH strips off by as much as 2 to 3 units (which I have no reason to doubt due to the several instances of soapers down through the years on the forum who have claimed their CP soaps tested with strips come out with a pH of 7....not to mention my own experiences using paper strips). 

Having said that, though, the key phrase to take away from the above paragraph is, "the surfactant nature of soap can throw the indicators of some pH strips off by as much as 2 to 3 units (emphasis on the word 'some'). I have a set of paper strips which have shown themselves to be unreliable when testing my soap (false neutral readings), but I also happen to own a set of the plastic, lab-grade Macherey-Nagel pH strips, and they do seem to work quite well with my soap. I normally zap-test my soap, but on those occasions when I've use the strips, I always make a 1% soap solution first before testing, and the Macherey-Nagel's have always come out with much more realistic readings for lye-based soap- somewhere between 9 and 10. 


IrishLass


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## topofmurrayhill

IrishLass said:


> I also happen to own a set of the plastic, lab-grade Macherey-Nagel pH strips, and they do seem to work quite well with my soap. I normally zap-test my soap, but on those occasions when I've use the strips, I always make a 1% soap solution first before testing, and the Macherey-Nagel's have always come out with much more realistic readings for lye-based soap- somewhere between 9 and 10.



Yep, I have only used the Macherey-Nagel strips and they have no problem with soap. Kevin Dunn recommends pH strips for anyone who doesn't wan't to zap test. For anyone who's interested in the pH of their liquid soap, I guess those are the ones to get.

If you have slightly lye heavy soap that's already diluted, that's about the only way to tell for sure because it's not going to zap. Even very lye heavy liquid soap will only give you a tingle when diluted. Certainly you can zap test the paste, but the best way to fix the soap is still to dilute it and then make your adjustments. The strips can be useful for that if you have experience with how your recipe normally turns out.

The recipe I posted in the photo section normally reads about 9.5 - 10.0. I can acidify it to 9 without any trouble if I want. And one time when I made the mistake of using more KOH than usual, thinking maybe it had lost strength, I got a reading of 11 or a bit more and was able to fix it.


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## Sapo

topofmurrayhill said:


> If you are making liquid soap with no lye discount, it could also scavenge any excess potassium hydroxide. This suggestion is to add it after saponification.
> 
> In have not used citric acid for these purposes. I use an 88% lactic acid solution, but the principle is the same and the result is potassium lactate. I have used it to correct a slight lye excess, and I have also tried it to change the pH after the soap is made. I don't know what the exact limit is, but I can go from pH 10 down to 9 with no impact on the clarity or lathering properties of the product.



How to determine how much acidifier to add in the case of a suspected KOH excess?



topofmurrayhill said:


> Kevin Dunn recommends pH strips for anyone who doesn't wan't to zap test.



How do pH strips indicate excess KOH? _I guess if I made a certain recipe 10x times, with a pH of 10.5 every single time, and on the 11th time it's 11, I know something is up? I don't see how they can indicate actual KOH excess any other way._

For selling purposes, in order to *absolutely* guarantee that there is *absolutely* no excess KOH present, would you recommend reducing the pH to (in the case of your example) 9 with *every* batch?

Edit: oh and another enthusiastic +1 for you to share the process of the soap in the photo gallery .


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## topofmurrayhill

Sapo said:


> How do pH strips indicate excess KOH? _I guess if I made a certain recipe 10x times, with a pH of 10.5 every single time, and on the 11th time it's 11, I know something is up? I don't see how they can indicate actual KOH excess any other way._
> 
> For selling purposes, in order to *absolutely* guarantee that there is *absolutely* no excess KOH present, would you recommend reducing the pH to (in the case of your example) 9 with *every* batch?



That's exactly right. If you're familiar with the way your soap normally turns out, the strips can be useful for quality control. The particular fatty acid profile in a given recipe should bring the soap to a similar pH each time you make it. If the strips indicate a significantly different alkalinity, it's one indication that something might have gone wrong.

I don't have a recommendation at this point for whether to acidify liquid soap even if it comes out properly. That technique releases some free fatty acids and might make the soap more mild, but I can't say yet whether it's worth doing. I experimented with it a little recently, but the weather has been changing and the humidity fluctuating, which makes it harder than usual to compare soaps.


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## Sapo

topofmurrayhill said:


> I don't have a recommendation at this point for whether to acidify liquid soap even if it comes out properly. That technique releases some free fatty acids and might make the soap more mild, but I can't say yet whether it's worth doing. I experimented with it a little recently, but the weather has been changing and the humidity fluctuating, which makes it harder than usual to compare soaps.



Not necessarily asking because I want to make it more mild, just to be extra sure people don't get exposed to any excess KOH. Since we're on a Bronner's thread, this is how their label looks like, and I intend to shamelessly steal the bold bit :mrgreen::

Ingredients: bla*, bla* bla*, *Potassium Hydroxide***, bla bla
*Certified organic ingredient
*** None remains in the final product.*

And I suppose the only true way to be sure that statement is true, given the fluctuation of oil properties and KOH concentration, is to acidify down to a certain level where you are 100% there isn't possible to have any leftover KOH. I think the limit to avoid having to do microbiology tests on the soap is a pH equal or above 9.5 (will ask and make sure soon). Bronners has a pH of 8.9, just for comparisson. Apparently shelf life isn't affected all that much by the process, given that it has the "usable for at least 36 months after being opened" logo thing on it.


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## Susie

Sapo said:


> Not necessarily asking because I want to make it more mild, just to be extra sure people don't get exposed to any excess KOH. Since we're on a Bronner's thread, this is how their label looks like, and I intend to shamelessly steal the bold bit :mrgreen::
> 
> Ingredients: bla*, bla* bla*, *Potassium Hydroxide***, bla bla
> *Certified organic ingredient
> *** None remains in the final product.*
> 
> And I suppose the only true way to be sure that statement is true, given the fluctuation of oil properties and KOH concentration, is to acidify down to a certain level where you are 100% there isn't possible to have any leftover KOH. I think the limit to avoid having to do microbiology tests on the soap is a pH equal or above 9.5 (will ask and make sure soon). Bronners has a pH of 8.9, just for comparisson. Apparently shelf life isn't affected all that much by the process, given that it has the "usable for at least 36 months after being opened" logo thing on it.



The way YOU make sure you have no "leftover" KOH is to use a superfat.  Nothing difficult to figure out.  You just put a 1-3 in that % line, and you know there is no leftover KOH.


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## kchaystack

PLus there is a kind of built in lye discount depending on the purity of your KOH.  When you get it from the supplier is 90 - 95% pure.  As you expose it to air, the CO2 and water in the air will lower this somewhat.  

Also make sure you are using a soap calc that takes the purity of the caustic into account.  Other wise it will assume it is 100% pure and that will cause you to have too much oil unreacted.


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## topofmurrayhill

Sapo said:


> Not necessarily asking because I want to make it more mild, just to be extra sure people don't get exposed to any excess KOH. Since we're on a Bronner's thread, this is how their label looks like, and I intend to shamelessly steal the bold bit :mrgreen::
> 
> Ingredients: bla*, bla* bla*, *Potassium Hydroxide***, bla bla
> *Certified organic ingredient
> *** None remains in the final product.*
> 
> And I suppose the only true way to be sure that statement is true, given the fluctuation of oil properties and KOH concentration, is to acidify down to a certain level where you are 100% there isn't possible to have any leftover KOH. I think the limit to avoid having to do microbiology tests on the soap is a pH equal or above 9.5 (will ask and make sure soon). Bronners has a pH of 8.9, just for comparisson. Apparently shelf life isn't affected all that much by the process, given that it has the "usable for at least 36 months after being opened" logo thing on it.



I would recommend a 2% lye discount unless you know enough about your materials to be more precise. If you are really, really serious about quality control, you have to get Scientific Soapmaking and invest in learning some analytical techniques to test your oils and caustic. I would be very impressed with any seller who took their craft so seriously, but it's optional.

Some folks ascribe some sort of hi-tech magic to lye calculators just because simple arithmetic is programmed into a computer, so a 2% lye discount automagically means a 2% superfat. However, particularly considering that the purity of KOH easily varies in a 10 point range, if you estimate 90% purity and use a 2 or 3 percent lye discount, you can't be SURE of anything if you're concerned as a seller. In that respect, some test strips certainly wouldn't hurt.

The question you are getting at is whether it might be of value to perform an adjustment on every batch of soap to be absolutely certain. I think it might be overkill. It is probably sufficient to determine the normal pH for a particular recipe, so that you only need to be concerned if you get something out of the ordinary.


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## Sapo

1. Been meaning to get that book for a while for that precise reason, how I wish there was an e-book!

2. Exactly.

3. Thanks, needed a second input on the idea and you are probably right. Nevertheless, I shall obtain that book and learn more.


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## topofmurrayhill

kchaystack said:


> PLus there is a kind of built in lye discount depending on the purity of your KOH.  When you get it from the supplier is 90 - 95% pure.  As you expose it to air, the CO2 and water in the air will lower this somewhat.



The common grades vary from 85% to 95%.  I generally just go with 90%. Considering the wide range, you need to have a whole lot of faith in what your suppliers says you should assume. Do they know what they're talking about? Did they test it analytically?

To suggest that there is some procedure that lets you be certain that as a seller to the public your batches are coming out correctly and consistently without any analysis beyond tasting the soap, that's not really supportable. To say that it's a total waste for a seller to the public to buy a box of test strips if they want to and keep an eye on how their batches read, that's not really reasonable.

I'm not suggesting that you mean to say those things, but I think some might.


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## Susie

Are you implying that zap testing, AKA (according to you) "tasting" is a useless test?

I have never said it is useless for someone to test their soap, only that test strips are not reliable.  Indeed, I have repeatedly stated that people intending to sell their soap should purchase a pH meter that is able to be calibrated and test it that way to ensure proper pH for preservatives.  A pH meter is not that expensive, and is much more economical over the long haul than repeatedly purchasing strips.  Or are you implying that test strips are more reliable than a properly calibrated meter?


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## topofmurrayhill

Susie said:


> Are you implying that zap testing, AKA (according to you) "tasting" is a useless test?



No.



Susie said:


> I have never said it is useless for someone to test their soap, only that test strips are not reliable.  Indeed, I have repeatedly stated that people intending to sell their soap should purchase a pH meter that is able to be calibrated and test it that way to ensure proper pH for preservatives.  A pH meter is not that expensive, and is much more economical over the long haul than repeatedly purchasing strips.  Or are you implying that test strips are more reliable than a properly calibrated meter?



I'm not _implying_ anything. Whatever I said is what I meant, no more and no less. We have discussed in this thread which strips work well with soap, and those are useful so I recommend them. As for your point about forgoing strips in favor of pH meters, I think one of our chemist regulars offered you feedback on that in another thread and was not wholly sympathetic. I don't find the need for it myself because it's kind of overkill and involves more money and hassle to get good readings to accomplish what I can already do. But of course I would be interested to hear about your experiences with Macherey-Nagel pH strips versus pH meters.


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## Sapo

Not saying this because he can't fight his own "battles", saying this because there  seems to be a communication malfunction/misunderstanding between you two.

As I understand it, he said:

"Complete reliance on soap calculators for consistency of product, given the inherent fluctuations of the raw materials used, isn't supportable advice. Zap tests and pH strips are good indicators that something might have gone wrong."

His words regarding efficacy of pH strips: "Yep, I have only used the Macherey-Nagel strips *and they have no problem with soap*. Kevin Dunn recommends pH strips for anyone who doesn't wan't to zap test. For anyone who's interested in the pH of their liquid soap, I guess those are the ones to get."

No mention of zap testing being useless, no mention of pH strips being reliable or unreliable (but a mention of success with a particular brand, shared experience with IL), no comparisson between strips and meters.

Not sure where you got all that from .

Edit: he beat me to it.
Edit2: "he" may be a "she".


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## dschiavo

sephera said:


> Sounds good do you care to share?


sure!  41 oz EVOO, 5 oz CO , 10 oz KOH/30 oz water, I use a 33% borax solution at dilution


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