# Sharon Johnson HP method?



## nsmar4211 (Aug 8, 2015)

Has anyone successfully tried the "new" HP method by Sharon Johnson? Curious if it'd be worth all the extra additives.....


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## IrishLass (Aug 8, 2015)

Hmmm.....never even heard of it. Off to go look....


IrishLass


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## galaxyMLP (Aug 8, 2015)

That's the HP extreme. We have an ongoing thread for that. I'll go find it!

Ok, here we go! 

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=54671


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## nsmar4211 (Aug 8, 2015)

Thank you Galaxy!!! No wonder I couldn't find it.... search went BAMP . *wanders to new thread*


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## IrishLass (Aug 8, 2015)

Well, I just watched her video. I loved how it was put together. She's a very good video presenter and has a wonderful speaking voice (and I love her apron- I want one!), but, oh my- I feel a bit frightened for her stick-blender! It looked like she had it running the whole time (was it)? If so, I don't think mine would be very happy with me at all if I tried running it like that, nosiree.

I hope I don't come off as a negative nelly (because I happened to have _really_ liked the way she put the video together and found it very enjoyable to watch.....and if the method works for her, great- I have no axe to grind there!), but I don't like how she advocates testing the pH of the batter with phenol (not very reliable, especially the way in which she did it without making a 1% solution out of the soap first). And I don't like how she 'sells' this method down in the comments section as being a quicker way to get your soap to market (ready to be sold in as little as 1 week after unmolding). Not to mention using Pyrex, but I was happy to see that Irena (aka Soapbuddy) pointed that out to her and that she responded positively to it. 

Galaxy- I just read the thread that you linked to. Did you ever try the method again at a higher temp?


IrishLass


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## reinbeau (Aug 8, 2015)

You can go buy her e-books and have her recipes and methods all handed to you - for a price.  What she's doing isn't all that revolutionary.  I discovered what she did when I was making goat's milk soap via hot process, I have to stickblend it back together a few times, and I noticed the nice mashed potatoes that was created when I did so - it really does speed up the cook.  But beware, there are people on Facebook who have burned out several stick blenders.  They aren't built to take that kind of heat and continuous running.  I can get great results in HP without killing my stickblender


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## galaxyMLP (Aug 8, 2015)

I've not tried it again but I have a theory that you don't need to SB it the whole time. I really would like to try it again at around 250 F. I think you need to SB it to thick trace, then stir it continually.


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## Dana89 (Aug 9, 2015)

I have A question about this method. I have never done HP and do not really care for the rustic look. The only time I think I would consider it is if there is an FO I could not live without that seizes. Anyway, I have seen several HP vids but they all have the "vaseline" stage. This one does not seem to. Is she gelling in the mold. Im cunfused.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 9, 2015)

All hp is finished saponifying before you put it in a mould - that's why tricky scents work well as there is no lye left to react with. 

I've not seen this video, but I imagine that it has the same stages, it's just that you don't see it so well as it is being mixed so much?


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## nsmar4211 (Aug 9, 2015)

From my soapy friends' try at it, yes it has the vaseline stage. Kinda pretty.

250??? oh my..... and I thought 200 was high, but it did lose heat (and they say not to leave it on the heat while doing it but how else do you not lose heat?!)


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## reinbeau (Aug 9, 2015)

It passes quickly through the vaseline stage when you use the stick blender.


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## SoapsMcGotes (Sep 20, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> I've not tried it again but I have a theory that you don't need to SB it the whole time. I really would like to try it again at around 250 F. I think you need to SB it to thick trace, then stir it continually.



I really love the stick blend method.  The only additive I use is SL at 3%, I use up to 50% water (a little over half with the lye and the rest after the cook) and I run the SB for about 3 minutes, tops all together. I soap it above 200 degrees and have a good, fluid batter without zaps in around 10 minutes.


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## reinbeau (Sep 20, 2015)

It would be interesting if one of you doing this method tests the shrinkage of these soaps over time - like over at least six months, preferably a year.  See if they shrink, warp, etc.


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## IrishLass (Sep 20, 2015)

I second what Reinbeau said. I often see bars that are newly made with this type of method that look fantastic, but I've yet to see a any pics of the bars 6 months to a year later. It would be very helpful to see how they fare in the shrinkage department.


IrishLass


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## nsmar4211 (Sep 21, 2015)

An update on my attempts (without paying an arm and a leg for the ebooks):

The bars that I added the sodium lactate to at 3% have a springy feel, long after bars that I didn't add to have cured hard. Blech. However, adding 1 tblsp of unflavored yogurt (I used greek) did not lead to springy bars but did help with the fluidity. I did the water at 38% in the soapcalc calculations on both batches, and added an extra tablespoon once it got close to the end. I did not add anything extra to the recipe other than the sodium lactate/yogurt.  My recipe is a high lard.

One major problem I have is stickblending like that led to splattering because I had to keep pulling the blender up out of the batter, and I'd get hot air pockets and ploop hot molten soap everywhere! This alone is keeping me shying away from continuing in these experiements. 

My conclusion? Adding yogurt does help with fluidity, adding sodium lactate in that quantity makes an odd bar. Splattering hot soap is bad.  Some of the method is adoptable for HP/ rebatch (of still fluid batches), as in starting with higher temperatures of oil and lye and stick blending off and on for a while speeds things up. All the extra "stuff" leads to a bleh bar (for me). I love my microwave (put the whole crock insert with the oils in there to preheat, 45 seconds at a time).....

Curious if anyone really has done the weigh the bar thing...or maybe a lather test...


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## Margo (Feb 4, 2016)

*Sharon's new hp method*

what exactly is the new hp method everyone's talking about?


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## newbie (Feb 4, 2016)

It's in the link that Galaxy posted on page one:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=54671


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## Margo (Feb 6, 2016)

Okay, I checked it out....it's not a new method.  It's an old method which I tried years ago. I abandoned this method because I wanted to not have to replace my stick blender at the cost of an additional $30.00.  I don't mind cooking the soap in a crock pot for a total of around 60 minutes until it is totally cured.


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## froggybean37 (Feb 6, 2016)

The video has been made private so I can't see it - would anyone be kind enough to give me the run down of what it is? 

Also, just as a point of interest, HP soap is not cured after the cook, merely saponified - curing comes with the evaporation of water and hardening of the bar. Personally I find this actually takes longer than my CP bars as no water discount is used in my HP.


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## LisaAnne (Feb 6, 2016)

Margo said:


> Okay, I checked it out....it's not a new method.  It's an old method which I tried years ago. I abandoned this method because I wanted to not have to replace my stick blender at the cost of an additional $30.00.  I don't mind cooking the soap in a crock pot for a total of around 60 minutes until it is totally cured.



I have to ask, whenever I did hot process I learned that as soon as there was no zap to finish with the additives and mold it asap so as not to overcook my soap. Thing is none my soap ever made it past 30 minutes to no zap. So I always molded as soon as I didn't have a zap. But, when I would continue to read about HP methods I was still seeing an hour cook time in many tutorials. My question is, do you continue to cook past saponification or does your recipe take an hour to no zap? The couple of times I did continue to cook longer my soap dried out. Maybe I missing something?


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## snappyllama (Feb 6, 2016)

I think the time to cook is fairly dependent on recipe and crockpot. Older crockpots tend to cook at lower temperatures - which would extend the overall cook time. I have a small, new crockpot that cooks my HP in around 30ish minutes. I only cook mine until there is no zap. 

Disclaimer: I'm a CP soaper most of the time and have limited HP experience. Hopefully folks with more HP will chime in with their experiences.


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## LisaAnne (Feb 6, 2016)

snappyllama said:


> I think the time to cook is fairly dependent on recipe and crockpot. Older crockpots tend to cook at lower temperatures - which would extend the overall cook time. I have a small, new crockpot that cooks my HP in around 30ish minutes. I only cook mine until there is no zap.
> 
> Disclaimer: I'm a CP soaper most of the time and have limited HP experience. Hopefully folks with more HP will chime in with their experiences.



Thanks. That issue always bugged me


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## Seawolfe (Feb 6, 2016)

LisaAnne said:


> I have to ask, whenever I did hot process I learned that as soon as there was no zap to finish with the additives and mold it asap so as not to overcook my soap. Thing is none my soap ever made it past 30 minutes to no zap. So I always molded as soon as I didn't have a zap. But, when I would continue to read about HP methods I was still seeing an hour cook time in many tutorials. My question is, do you continue to cook past saponification or does your recipe take an hour to no zap? The couple of times I did continue to cook longer my soap dried out. Maybe I missing something?


I think its due to the fact that very old recipes cooked for a very long time (because they didnt have the advantages we do with knowing sap values and pure lyes), and its also one of those basically wrong things people perpetuate like "mix shredded soap with water to make easy liquid soap" or "HP soap doesn't need a cure".


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## LisaAnne (Feb 6, 2016)

Seawolfe said:


> I think its due to the fact that very old recipes cooked for a very long time (because they didnt have the advantages we do with knowing sap values and pure lyes), and its also one of those basically wrong things people perpetuate like "mix shredded soap with water to make easy liquid soap" or "HP soap doesn't need a cure".


That makes sense, I'm really glad I have a year of HP making, I'm sure I will return to it many times. But I do love CP, thanks for your input.


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## reinbeau (Feb 6, 2016)

Margo said:


> Okay, I checked it out....it's not a new method.  It's an old method which I tried years ago. I abandoned this method because I wanted to not have to replace my stick blender at the cost of an additional $30.00.  I don't mind cooking the soap in a crock pot for a total of around 60 minutes until it is totally cured.


Her minions will demand you prove that this is an old method.  Because none of them have been soaping longer than a year, have learned everything they know from a Facebook group, and seem to be like little children who think life began when they did


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## JBot (Feb 7, 2016)

Ok, so I've been using this method almost exclusively for the last six months.  That said, I've been tweaking and adjusting along the way, so by now I'm not following Sharon Johnson's instructions all that closely.



galaxyMLP said:


> I've not tried it again but I have a theory that you don't need to SB it the whole time. I really would like to try it again at around 250 F. I think you need to SB it to thick trace, then stir it continually.



You're on to something here!  I get much better results when I heat the oils to about 235 F, and I stop stick blending well before the volcano.  At this point I'm stick blending less than 60 seconds.  When it starts to look "right" -- maybe 45 seconds of stick blending, on LOW -- I stop, cover the pot with a clear lid, and watch for the volcano, which shows up within a minute usually.  Don't walk away from it, you need to act fast to stir it down so it doesn't boil over onto your counter.  (I had that experience once, it was interesting!  No damage, thanks to safety gear, etc.)

I use sodium lactate at 3% of the oil weight, and I've never found that it does anything weird to the texture or firmness of the soap.  After 3-ish weeks of curing they're just as hard as my cured CP, but I like a hard recipe with a lot of stearic acid, so that could be a factor.  I haven't done this with a softer recipe.



reinbeau said:


> It would be interesting if one of you doing this method tests the shrinkage of these soaps over time - like over at least six months, preferably a year.  See if they shrink, warp, etc.





IrishLass said:


> I second what Reinbeau said. I often see bars that are newly made with this type of method that look fantastic, but I've yet to see a any pics of the bars 6 months to a year later. It would be very helpful to see how they fare in the shrinkage department.
> 
> IrishLass



I can't speak for others, but mine DO shrink/warp in typical HP fashion.  My  first "stick blend" HP bars are 6 months old now.  They don't seem to shrink/warp as MUCH as bars made with other HP methods, but I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't happen at all.  It drives me up the wall when people are not truthful about this stuff.

I've spent the last year trying to solve the warping issue, and it's possible that there simply isn't a solution, but I'm not ready to accept defeat quite yet.

I also don't do this with the "standard" 38% water as % of oils.  I use about a 30% lye concentration, which in my recipes is usually about 32% water as % of oils.



Margo said:


> Okay, I checked it out....it's not a new method.  It's an old method which I tried years ago. I abandoned this method because I wanted to not have to replace my stick blender at the cost of an additional $30.00.  I don't mind cooking the soap in a crock pot for a total of around 60 minutes until it is totally cured.



Really?  This surprises me; for some reason I didn't think people were using stick blenders to make soap until about 10 years ago, but what I don't know would fill several libraries.  My stick blender's doing just fine, but like I mentioned above, I don't actually run it for more than a minute.  I use a 200 watt Cuisinart and it's quite the little workhorse.



reinbeau said:


> Her minions will demand you prove that this is an old method.  Because none of them have been soaping longer than a year, have learned everything they know from a Facebook group, and seem to be like little children who think life began when they did



Yeah, Facebook soaping groups can be pretty obnoxious like that.  I don't think it's fair to single out any one group, though, since those attitudes seem pretty universal on Facebook.  I don't follow them very much, but every once in a while you come across a little gem that turns out to be quite helpful.

I will say that I've been troubled by the viciousness I've seen directed at Sharon Johnson, particularly on Facebook.  People are entitled to their opinions, and they're entitled to disagree, but there's no reason to be nasty about it.  I imagine she's enthusiastic about the way she makes soap and she wants to share that.  How is that a bad thing?

I suppose one could argue that she's endorsing this idea that you can/should sell your soap just a few days after it's made, but that's hardly an original thought.  "Instant cure!" nonsense is all over the place.

I'm also not sure why people are so outraged by her selling a book about the method.  There are lots of soapmaking books out there.  Why is this any different?


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## Margo (Feb 7, 2016)

I got a chuckle out of the term "old recipes" and "old crockpots".  The time hp soap takes to cook varies.  A small crock pot produces a small batch of soap, therefore, it may not take an hour to cook.  
Another factor to consider in hp soap making is the oils and additives that are used.
All in all, boys and girls, the soap is done when it is done.
Photo:  Pink Himalayan Salt HP Soap
The difference that the method is not new and some people feel that they have been deceived and wasted their money


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## Muskette (Feb 7, 2016)

I've seen lots of drama on YouTube regarding SJ and her method. Since she claims to have invented the method (and I vaguely recall some talk of patents or trademarks pending), people that posted videos of themselves making soap this way were bombarded with comments from SJ's followers, demanding that credit be given to SJ as the creator of the method and that it be referred to as SJHP (Sharon Johnson Hot Process) instead of SBHP (Stick Blend Hot Process). This is probably why there's been such a backlash against her.


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## reinbeau (Feb 7, 2016)

JBot said:


> I will say that I've been troubled by the viciousness I've seen directed at Sharon Johnson, particularly on Facebook.  People are entitled to their opinions, and they're entitled to disagree, but there's no reason to be nasty about it.  I imagine she's enthusiastic about the way she makes soap and she wants to share that.  How is that a bad thing?
> 
> I suppose one could argue that she's endorsing this idea that you can/should sell your soap just a few days after it's made, but that's hardly an original thought.  "Instant cure!" nonsense is all over the place.
> 
> I'm also not sure why people are so outraged by her selling a book about the method.  There are lots of soapmaking books out there.  Why is this any different?


Thank you for your good review of your thoughts on this method.

You don't understand the 'viciousness' - it's because of her own words and actions. It's her insistence that it's her method - which is utter crap.  Nothing she's done is anything new or revolutionary.  It's her claim that she's got a patent - the number she gave does not return anything, because it's a blatant lie.  She claims to be a good Christian yet makes horrid videos using teenagers who have killed themselves to represent how she's been 'bullied' when, in fact, it's her who is the bully.  All of this is to protect her cash cow.  Now she's claiming to have invented cream soap and whipped soap.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




$70 for an ebook that can't be printed??   I know P. T. Barnum was right, there's a sucker born every minute, but to charge an asinine amount of money to new people who are clueless at how many ways there are to achieve the same result is disgusting to many of us.  That is why you see the 'viciousness'.  I am on a lot of FB groups helping people - and I would never, for one minute, expect to make a dime off of anyone for that help.  The whole thing just stinks.  And with that I'll leave everyone to their own thoughts on the matter.


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## Seawolfe (Feb 7, 2016)

I always have a problem with people who try to commoditize everything to make a buck, yet complain when the free market forces comes to bite them on the butt - due to their own actions or their lies and half truths.


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## LisaAnne (Feb 7, 2016)

I watched the whole situation unfold on Facebook and caught on very early on to  what the motivations were. It is sad to watch a group of soapers enter into an almost cult like mentality. It is all money driven and religion is being used to garner trust. I check in on  occasion  to see how things are developing and I am amazed at how naive some people are. I'm not surprised at the backlash.  I don't care either way, it's just interesting to watch.


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## IrishLass (Feb 7, 2016)

JBot said:


> I can't speak for others, but mine DO shrink/warp in typical HP fashion. My first "stick blend" HP bars are 6 months old now. They don't seem to shrink/warp as MUCH as bars made with other HP methods, but I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't happen at all. It drives me up the wall when people are not truthful about this stuff.
> 
> I've spent the last year trying to solve the warping issue, and it's possible that there simply isn't a solution, but I'm not ready to accept defeat quite yet.


 
Finally! An honest long-term update/report! Thank you so much for that. 


IrishLass


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## snappyllama (Feb 7, 2016)

reinbeau said:


> You don't understand the 'viciousness' - it's because of her own words and actions. It's her insistence that it's her method - which is utter crap.  Nothing she's done is anything new or revolutionary.  It's her claim that she's got a patent - the number she gave does not return anything, because it's a blatant lie.  She claims to be a good Christian yet makes horrid videos using teenagers who have killed themselves to represent how she's been 'bullied' when, in fact, it's her who is the bully.  All of this is to protect her cash cow.



I saw that deranged rant of hers on youtube and had to turn it off. I guess she'd been kicked out of some facebook groups and was retaliating. Just disgusting...

I blocked any other videos of hers. At this point she could "invent" a soaping method that created chocolate chip cookies as a byproduct - I wouldn't give her a dime or listen to a word.

You know, I was totally willing to give her the benefit of the doubt when I first heard of her "method" and wouldn't begrudge anyone making a little profit off of sharing some knowledge. I happily support SwiftMonkey's charitable eBooks and have recently purchased a recipe to try out from Body Bonbon... but folks passing off dubious/untested methods for exorbitant amounts makes me angry.  Seeing that youtube diatribe completely infuriated me.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 8, 2016)

Has the rant been removed?


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## LisaAnne (Feb 8, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Has the rant been removed?



Yes, I believe it has. I saw it and thought it was pretty disturbing.


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## JBot (Feb 8, 2016)

Wow.  I guess Sharon Johnson is quite the polarizing topic!

My comments/review were intended to be about the method, not the person, and I haven't been tracking things on Facebook closely enough to have seen all this madness.  When I said I was troubled by how nasty some people have been to her, I was referring to those who were mocking her and basically calling her stupid for making soap the way she does.

It seems there's a lot more drama in all of this than I realized.  (Don't drink the Kool-Aid, yo!)  Even so, I still think it's important to try to remain civil, no matter how awful somebody else is being.  The lack of civility I so often see on Facebook is precisely why I'm not on there very much.



Margo said:


> The difference that the method is not new and some people feel that they have been deceived and wasted their money



I didn't know about her, and I wasn't even on any Facebook soaping groups, until somebody posted about her here on the forum.  This was right after her initial how-to video was posted, and at that time it was still publicly available.  I was curious, so I followed the bread crumbs to Facebook and printed a pdf she'd posted with a written summary of the process.  (I think the video and the pdf were taken down sometime after that.)  Since I personally did not have to pay money for those basic instructions, I can't really speak for the people who did.



Muskette said:


> I've seen lots of drama on YouTube regarding SJ and her method. Since she claims to have invented the method (and I vaguely recall some talk of patents or trademarks pending), people that posted videos of themselves making soap this way were bombarded with comments from SJ's followers, demanding that credit be given to SJ as the creator of the method and that it be referred to as SJHP (Sharon Johnson Hot Process) instead of SBHP (Stick Blend Hot Process). This is probably why there's been such a backlash against her.



Reinbeau said (see below) that SJ claims to have invented cream soap and whipped soap.  That's just weird, since information on how to make those products has been publicly circulating for a long time, and it's easy to demonstrate that they're not her invention.  Does anybody know whether there are videos/materials about the METHOD that pre-date hers?  That would make it really easy to settle the question of whether she "invented" it.  I will do some searching and report back if I can find anything.



reinbeau said:


> She claims to be a good Christian yet makes horrid videos using teenagers who have killed themselves to represent how she's been 'bullied' when, in fact, it's her who is the bully.  All of this is to protect her cash cow.  Now she's claiming to have invented cream soap and whipped soap.





snappyllama said:


> I saw that deranged rant of hers on youtube and had to turn it off. I guess she'd been kicked out of some facebook groups and was retaliating. Just disgusting...



I haven't seen this video, but it sounds like many people found it rather distasteful, to put it mildly.  As a Christian myself, it's very discouraging when bad behavior is linked to any branch of Christianity -- even when it's not my own particular flavor -- but sadly it seems to happen constantly.  (How 'bout that Josh Duggar?  What an embarrassment.)  I guess the takeaway here is that NOBODY is perfect or "good" (superior) or special, and any "Christian" who claims otherwise isn't reading the Bible very carefully.



IrishLass said:


> Finally! An honest long-term update/report! Thank you so much for that.



I'll try to post some pictures if it'll help!  I was extremely irritated when I asked for pictures of aged soap on one of these HP Facebook groups and got maybe two replies, both with pictures that I have good reason to believe were actually of fresh soap.


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## reinbeau (Feb 8, 2016)

She removed the video when she started to get mostly negative comments on YouTube.  I have the video on my computer.  Nuff said on all that.  Jbot, that's the issue, the older soapmakers did things without videoing themselves - of course - this kind of malarkey just wasn't on the radar back then.  I am continually appalled at how badly some soapmakers behave, I don't know what happens to cause this, but it's out there, and on Facebook it just can't be avoided, totally.  Thankfully it's easy enough to surround yourself with the good soapmakers, which is what I prefer to do.


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## Arimara (Feb 8, 2016)

I think I just found out who she is. I'm not going into how Christian she is it isn't the main issue but from what some have said, her alleged actions betray her religion (sorry but I am late to this party and thank God too). So the only thing for me to do is to just familiarize myself with this method, so to speak.

This issue reminds me of a rumor I heard of some guy trying to patent steel drums and the sheer backlash that ensued because of that.

Is her method similar to this?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ2ffjIRMak"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ2ffjIRMak[/ame]


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## Susie (Feb 8, 2016)

I have left a couple of more FB soapmaking groups over this.  I am really done with all the negativity.  I just don't have time for all of that anymore, and am simply unwilling to give those folks one more minute of my time.  I am still a member of this forum (obviously), and Liquid Soapmakers Yahoo Group, where none of that nonsense is allowed.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 8, 2016)

As far as cream soap and whipped soap ... versions of these products are in soap making manuals and perfumery manuals from the 1800s. (Perfumers were the ones who made the fancy perfumed toilet soaps, hair pomades, creams, etc. Soap makers just made soap.) Not saying the old methods and recipes are exactly the same as nowadays. They didn't have stick blenders or even mechanical stirrers. They also did a lot less cold process method and more "boiled" soap. But the general techniques and methods are there.

Susie -- Lately, I've been seeing a trend away from the intense focus on pH testing and the idea of forcing the LS pH to go lower than is natural and more focus on the zap test and accepting the soap just as it is. I never thought I'd see the day....


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## Margo (Feb 8, 2016)

Seawolfe:  I agree with you. There's a lot of controversy about Sharon Johnson's so-called new method.  It's not exactly a secret that if the mixture is hot enough and you stick blend it long enough you'll have soap in a shorter amount of time than the traditional hot-processed cook method.  
I mean, if one cave man discovers fire and another cave man who lives thousands of miles away in a different country also discovers fire who invented it?  The thing is that ability to make fire was always there...it just needed someone to discover the method of making fire.
I cook my hp soap in a crock pot and when it is ready to pour, it has a ph of 7.  I say if it's not broken, don't fix it.


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## Seawolfe (Feb 8, 2016)

Margo said:


> Seawolfe:  I agree with you. There's a lot of controversy about Sharon Johnson's so-called new method.  It's not exactly a secret that if the mixture is hot enough and you stick blend it long enough you'll have soap in a shorter amount of time than the traditional hot-processed cook method.
> I mean, if one cave man discovers fire and another cave man who lives thousands of miles away in a different country also discovers fire who invented it?  The thing is that ability to make fire was always there...it just needed someone to discover the method of making fire.
> I cook my hp soap in a crock pot and when it is ready to pour, it has a ph of 7.  I say if it's not broken, don't fix it.



While I agree with almost all of this, I guarantee you that your lye soap isn't pH neutral. If it were it simply wouldn't be soap any more.


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## topofmurrayhill (Feb 8, 2016)

reinbeau said:


> Jbot, that's the issue, the older soapmakers did things without videoing themselves - of course - this kind of malarkey just wasn't on the radar back then.



JBot asks a reasonable question though, and it doesn't require video.

We're not talking about the Stone Age. Forums like Dish, SMF and Craftserver have existed for a long time. Stuff people were doing from even before the mid-aughts is still around, like Miller Soap.

I've been soaping since 2006 or 2007 and I don't recall any HP method that involved SBing the snot out of the soap and adding a dollop of yogurt to make it fluid. And even the advent of stick blending is kinda documented on Miller. Folks haven't been doing it forever.

I am not arguing that SJ's method is original. I could easily believe that it's not something that she was liable to hit upon on her own. At the moment though it's just someone's say-so.


DeeAnna said:


> Susie -- Lately, I've been seeing a trend away from the intense focus on pH testing and the idea of forcing the LS pH to go lower than is natural and more focus on the zap test and accepting the soap just as it is. I never thought I'd see the day....



I certainly agree there is a lot of ignorance in connection with that. But neither do I accept the implied orthodoxy. Superfatting with fatty acids is an accepted technique for making a milder soap, and among other things it can modestly lower the pH without invoking the unnatural, or supernatural. 



Margo said:


> I cook my hp soap in a crock pot and when it is ready to pour, it has a ph of 7.  I say if it's not broken, don't fix it.



Nope. It's either not pH 7, or it's not soap.


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## reinbeau (Feb 8, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> JBot asks a reasonable question though, and it doesn't require video.
> 
> We're not talking about the Stone Age. Forums like Dish, SMF and Craftserver have existed for a long time. Stuff people were doing from even before the mid-aughts is still around, like Miller Soap.


Trust me, these people have only been at it for a year or less.  They don't research (the minions).  They form fan clubs around whoever attracts them and only make soap their way.  I don't mean that others aren't attracted to these methods, but they've been making soap, they're just looking, experimenting, and then they're off.  The negativity mentioned here comes from the fan club who tell others that they're violating some patent (that doesn't exist) because that's what they're told.  

I think it's more upsetting that people aren't learning about soapmaking anymore.  They're buying recipes, cookbooks, following them religiously, and that becomes THE ONLY WAY.



> I've been soaping since 2006 or 2007 and I don't recall any HP method that involved SBing the snot out of the soap and adding a dollop of yogurt to make it fluid. And even the advent of stick blending is kinda documented on Miller. Folks haven't been doing it forever.


 I found out way back in the beginning of my hot process career that you could stickblend the snot out of the soap and it would saponify quicker.  Mainly because of using full goat's milk, and how it separates constantly.  I also knew long before SJ that yogurt converts to a form of sodium lactate when added into the mix.  ByrdiJean taught me lots and she didn't make a dime off me.....



> I am not arguing that SJ's method is original. I could easily believe that it's not something that she was liable to hit upon on her own. At the moment though it's just someone's say-so.


Lots of someone's saying so.  But whatever.  She will make her money and people will believe her, but she's really got nothing to stand on but her fans.

Perhaps this thread needs to go away if it's upsetting to people.


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## topofmurrayhill (Feb 8, 2016)

reinbeau said:


> I also knew long before SJ that yogurt converts to a form of sodium lactate when added into the mix.
> 
> Perhaps this thread needs to go away if it's upsetting to people.



You sound _possibly_ a bit a upset, but don't worry I think everyone is fine.

Interesting question about the yogurt. Nobody knows why it works.

There's not enough lactic acid in a dollop of yogurt to plausibly have an effect as sodium lactate. Let's generously say there's 1% in yogurt (there's not) and a 50 gram dollop goes into 2000 grams of soap batter, that would make about 5 100ths of a percent SL.


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## reinbeau (Feb 8, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> You sound _possibly_ a bit a upset, but don't worry I think everyone is fine.


 No, I'm not upset, it was Susie's post that made me think it was upsetting people.




> Interesting question about the yogurt. Nobody knows why it works.
> 
> There's not enough lactic acid in a dollop of yogurt to plausibly have an effect as sodium lactate. Let's generously say there's 1% in yogurt (there's not) and a 50 gram dollop goes into 2000 grams of soap batter, that would make about 5 100ths of a percent SL.


Don't know, but it does seem to add nicely to fluidity.


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## Seawolfe (Feb 8, 2016)

Id be interested to see what adding a "dollop" of shea butter, aloe, water, coconut milk, heck even water would do. I know that adding the superfat to HP at this point helps with fluidity.


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## reinbeau (Feb 8, 2016)

Seawolfe said:


> Id be interested to see what adding a "dollop" of shea butter, aloe, water, coconut milk, heck even water would do. I know that adding the superfat to HP at this point helps with fluidity.


I don't like adding a lot of excess water, I'm probably at 38-40% total  *water*, everything else counts towards raising that level.  I consider all fluids when making HP - and the SF is calculated in with everything else.  I don't use yogurt specifically or even always.  Just about any warmed fluid will help with the fluidity.  Keep it all nice and hot and you can make really nice swirls with it.


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## penelopejane (Feb 8, 2016)

I know adding a dollop of sour cream or yoghurt to banana bread (about 10x10x2 deep inches) makes a huge difference.! 
Sometimes it is the little things. 

There is always someone who offers a service for money and always someone who is prepared to pay. The higher the amount they pay the less likely they are to give negative feedback and the more zealous they will be about the product. 

I am a share trader. There is a woman in oz who charges $20,000  to teach you. She makes more money out of "educating" than trading.  There are lots of people out there who want the quick fix holy grail. 
There really isn't a quick fix holy grail in any endeavour.


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## JBot (Feb 8, 2016)

reinbeau said:


> I don't like adding a lot of excess water, I'm probably at 38-40% total  *water*, everything else counts towards raising that level.  I consider all fluids when making HP - and the SF is calculated in with everything else.  I don't use yogurt specifically or even always.  Just about any warmed fluid will help with the fluidity.  Keep it all nice and hot and you can make really nice swirls with it.



So does YOURS shrink/warp?  I've tried so many different things to try to prevent it.  I've noticed that shrink-wrapping the bars when they're fresh kind of does the trick, but that just means they're not drying/curing.


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## reinbeau (Feb 8, 2016)

JBot said:


> So does YOURS shrink/warp?  I've tried so many different things to try to prevent it.  I've noticed that shrink-wrapping the bars when they're fresh kind of does the trick, but that just means they're not drying/curing.


I don't see huge shrinking/warping, I do put the soaps right into the freezer after molding, that supposedly helps align the soap crystals (it is a salt) and helps to prevent that shrinking.  I've had pretty good luck with it.


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## Arimara (Feb 8, 2016)

Susie said:


> I have left a couple of more FB soapmaking groups over this.  I am really done with all the negativity.  I just don't have time for all of that anymore, and am simply unwilling to give those folks one more minute of my time.  I am still a member of this forum (obviously), and Liquid Soapmakers Yahoo Group, where none of that nonsense is allowed.



There are still yahoo groups? I've been out of the loop for a while.


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## Margo (Feb 9, 2016)

Here is a HP soap that I made 13 years ago.  It originally weighed 5.5 oz., but now weighs 4-1/8 oz. It has been stored unwrapped in a soap box.


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## JBot (Feb 9, 2016)

reinbeau said:


> I don't see huge shrinking/warping, I do put the soaps right into the freezer after molding, that supposedly helps align the soap crystals (it is a salt) and helps to prevent that shrinking.  I've had pretty good luck with it.



I've heard that before, although I don't understand exactly WHY that would help.  Do you think it makes a difference whether it's put in the freezer immediately after pouring into the mold, or cooled on the countertop first?  Assuming it's still in the mold and hasn't been sitting around for a long time before being frozen.


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## reinbeau (Feb 9, 2016)

JBot said:


> I've heard that before, although I don't understand exactly WHY that would help.  Do you think it makes a difference whether it's put in the freezer immediately after pouring into the mold, or cooled on the countertop first?  Assuming it's still in the mold and hasn't been sitting around for a long time before being frozen.


I put it right in the freezer after I put it in the mold.  I leave it in there overnight, take it out in the morning, let it warm up and then cut.


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## Margo (Feb 10, 2016)

Boys and Girls:  There has never been a need for me to put my hp soap into the freezer.  I think if you ever have seen freeze dried potatoes you would understand the reason for the warping.  
It may be that the warping occurs as a result of leaving the soap in the freezer for too long.  Ice crystals form and then when it is exposed to air, the moisture evaporates and causes your soap to warp.  (this is just my theory)


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## Arimara (Feb 10, 2016)

Margo said:


> Boys and Girls:  There has never been a need for me to put my hp soap into the freezer.  I think if you ever have seen freeze dried potatoes you would understand the reason for the warping.
> It may be that the warping occurs as a result of leaving the soap in the freezer for too long.  Ice crystals form and then when it is exposed to air, the moisture evaporates and causes your soap to warp.  (this is just my theory)



In my head, it makes sense.


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## reinbeau (Feb 10, 2016)

Margo said:


> Boys and Girls:  There has never been a need for me to put my hp soap into the freezer.  I think if you ever have seen freeze dried potatoes you would understand the reason for the warping.
> It may be that the warping occurs as a result of leaving the soap in the freezer for too long.  Ice crystals form and then when it is exposed to air, the moisture evaporates and causes your soap to warp.  (this is just my theory)


There are denizens on The Dish who explained the science behind it.  No one says you *have* to put it in the freezer.  It's a suggestion.  The slower alignment of the crystals helps to consolidate and firm the soap up.  Using the higher moisture method to swirl the soap can lead to the warping, and a stint in the freezer most definitely does help.  I'm always puzzled and somewhat amused when this is suggested and people insist there's nothing to it.  :::shrug::: I don't care if you try it or not.  Works for me.

Oh, and I haven't been a girl for many, many years.


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## Arimara (Feb 10, 2016)

reinbeau said:


> There are denizens on The Dish who explained the science behind it.  No one says you *have* to put it in the freezer.  It's a suggestion.  The slower alignment of the crystals helps to consolidate and firm the soap up.  Using the higher moisture method to swirl the soap can lead to the warping, and a stint in the freezer most definitely does help.  I'm always puzzled and somewhat amused when this is suggested and people insist there's nothing to it.  :::shrug::: I don't care if you try it or not.  Works for me.
> 
> Oh, and I haven't been a girl for many, many years.



Thanks. Now I'm glad this thread got necroed.


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## JBot (Feb 11, 2016)

Margo said:


> Boys and Girls:  There has never been a need for me to put my hp soap into the freezer.  I think if you ever have seen freeze dried potatoes you would understand the reason for the warping.
> It may be that the warping occurs as a result of leaving the soap in the freezer for too long.  Ice crystals form and then when it is exposed to air, the moisture evaporates and causes your soap to warp.  (this is just my theory)



I've never frozen soap in the mold, so that's not the cause of my warping.  I've only frozen soap that's cooled and un-molded but not cut, and I didn't notice any difference.

Maybe we have different definitions of "warping."  I'm not talking about soap that's twisted and deformed; I'm talking about well-cured HP bars that have not-perfectly-straight edges/sides.  CP edges and sides stay pristinely straight as the bars cure and shrink, but the HP gets a little ripply around the edges.


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## reinbeau (Feb 12, 2016)

HP is definitely more rustic looking, and yes, it's 'ripply', but warping and caving in isn't what I'd call normal for my HP soaps.  I've got bars that are over a year old that look pretty much like they did after a four week cure.  Not misshapen at all.


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## topofmurrayhill (Feb 13, 2016)

reinbeau said:


> HP is definitely more rustic looking, and yes, it's 'ripply', but warping and caving in isn't what I'd call normal for my HP soaps.  I've got bars that are over a year old that look pretty much like they did after a four week cure.  Not misshapen at all.



It is difficult to know if everyone is on the same page with their perceptions without pics. The impression I've gotten from JBot is that getting anything other than fresh-cut HP pics is like pulling molars.


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## reinbeau (Feb 13, 2016)

I'll take pics and post later.


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## carebear (Jan 11, 2017)

JBot said:


> for some reason I didn't think people were using stick blenders to make soap until about 10 years ago



Ancient thread, but regardless - I've been using an immersion blender for soapmaking for almost 20 years.  This is not a new method - though her proportions might be different, the concepts are far from new.


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