# How many different oils do you use in your soap?



## CelestialLizzie (Jan 7, 2022)

There's old engineering mantra that says something like "the more complicated something is, the more that can go wrong" and that can also apply to practically anything, like a large variety of oils you always use for soap. What if one of them isout of stock, you don't realize it's gone bad, the source you buy one of your oils from is getting _their _oils from somewhere else and you notice a difference in quality, etc. More of a variety of oils = more bad things that could happen.
I know the simple 30/30/30/10 recipe from brambleberry seems to be used almost universally, and I wanted something a little more complex than that - but it occurred to me that that may not be a great idea for the reasons above. I was looking at something with 7 different oils, which seems insane, but I figured I might ask to see if anyone else uses more than 3, 4, or even 5 oils on a regular basis.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 7, 2022)

I use 7 oils every time - each brings their own addition to my recipe. Some people only use 3 or 4 as standard.
I found this to be an interesting read early in my soaping journey:
What Fatty Acid Profiles in Soapmaking Are the Most Popular?


----------



## Zing (Jan 7, 2022)

I started with 3 or 4.  Now I use 6.  Sometimes I like complexity with 100 colors and swirling techniques.  Other times I love a simple one color or no color -- especially the easy clean up.  Unlike superstar @KiwiMoose , I was years into my soaping journey before I read that article and truly understood it.  Linolaywhat?!


----------



## ResolvableOwl (Jan 7, 2022)

CelestialLizzie said:


> something with 7 different oils, which seems insane


7 oils is just as insane as making soap by oneself is in general. 

One rarely does add oils just to lengthen the ingredient list and to increase the chances for errors (like measurement uncertainties, confuse bottles, running out of one ingredient, spilling…). One combines oils to have a soap that has particular properties (bubbly lather, hardness, cleansing/irritation potential, or clarity for liquid soaps…). These properties are most conveniently expressed in the fatty acid profile of the oil blend.

A mathematician would give you this answer: For a given FA profile, you need at most as many oils as you have FAs to consider. For all but the very most obsessed, this is the eight that are included in most soap calculators (saturated C12…C18 + unsaturated C18 + ricinoleic acid). So it is (superficially) proven that anything beyond 8 ingredients is just label appeal fuss  (and/or masochism). And mathematicians are happy because they have reduced the formulation of soap recipes to the solved problem of matrix inversion.

In practice, strict adherence to a given FA profile is rarely a sensible aim for soapmaking, nor do FA profiles make up for complete properties of the soap. Consequently, it is neither possible nor necessary to adhere to a specific “school of thought” (be it 30/30/30/10, basic trinity, castile, …) to come up with a “personality” of your recipes – the best indication for the flexibility of the concept “soap” is the sheer amount of different recipe types and sub-types!

tl;dr: Use the oils that lend your soap the properties you want. You don't have to count them.



ETA: To address your actual question:


CelestialLizzie said:


> if anyone else uses more than 3, 4, or even 5 oils on a regular basis.


I refuse the “regular basis” part. I don't have one of a few “go-to” recipes, optimised over the years, to which I repeatedly return. My recipes can consist of anywhere between one and nine oils (IIRC). I love giving exotic components a chance. I love building recipes around the oddities of unconventional ingredients. Heck, it was a big thing for me (just a few months ago) when I first replicated a recipe for the first time!


----------



## maryloucb (Jan 7, 2022)

I like to keep it simple, personally. I have 2 recipes that I generally use. One has 4 oils and the other has 5.


----------



## Ugeauxgirl (Jan 8, 2022)

I use 4 usually.  Never more than 5, a few recipes less than that.  But I'm a simple girl, and prone to forgetting things so I keep it as simple as I can.


----------



## lsg (Jan 8, 2022)

I think once you have found a combination you like, you usually stick to it.  I like a combination or 4 or 5 oils/butters/fats in my soap.


----------



## ResolvableOwl (Jan 8, 2022)

Even if your favourite oil composition ends up to be complicated, you can make an *oil masterbatch* once in a while, and the number of oily ingredients suddenly reduces to 1.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Jan 8, 2022)

CelestialLizzie said:


> I know the simple 30/30/30/10 recipe from brambleberry


Better than Brambleberry's recipe is the *BASIC TRINITY OF OILS* that uses the 3 oils that form the 3 legs of a really good bar of soap for almost every skin type. This is a proven formula that I increasingly see in popular online natural soap bars like Dr. Squatch and others.

Once you get the "feel" of what each leg of the trinity brings to the end product, you can tweak the formula to your heart's desire.


----------



## TheGecko (Jan 8, 2022)

I started with BB's recipe since I bought their Beginner's Cold Process Soap kit.  And like every soap maker out there, I spent several months experimenting with different kinds of oils and butters trying to come up with a 'unique' bar that would become the 'it' soap.  Fortunately I found this site a couple of months after I started making soap and discovered that 1) expensive oils/butters are a waste of money in soap because of the saponification process (save them for lotions) and 2) anything less than 5% just isn't worth it (IMHO), unless you are going for 'label appeal.  

There is a reason why an equal amount of Olive, Coconut and Palm oils are called the "Holy Trinity"...as noted by @Zany_in_CO it ticks all the qualities of a good bar of soap. Now that doesn't mean that you can't use other ingredients...some folks don't like Olive Oil, some folks don't want to use Palm Oil, some folks find Coconut Oil to be too drying. And it doesn't mean that you can't add a little something-something extra. In addition to adding Sodium Lactate to make it easier to unmold my soap, I add Kaolin Clay. My husband likes an extra 'bubbly' bar so I add sugar to his loaf.

It also be noted that some folks, like me, pretty much just have just one recipe and some folks have multiple recipes. For my Regular Soap I use four oils (Olive, Coconut, Palm and Castor) and two butters (Cocoa and Shea). For my Goat Milk, I use the same four oils and just Shea Butter. I have a Mechanic's Soap that I make that is my Regular Soap w/Powdered Pumice. I also have a couple of folks who are allergic to Cocoa and Shea Butters so I just use BB's Recipe for them.

What it comes down to...it's a matter of personal preference; what do you like and how much are you willing to spend?  If you want to make your soap with twenty different oils and butters...go for it.  If you want to add clays, milk powders, silk, sugar, honey, salt, extracts, etc...go for it.  One of the reasons why I got into Master Batching my oils was because it was such a PITA measuring out 1.65 oz of Castor Oil for every batch...so much easier to out 32 oz.


----------



## CreativeWeirdo (Jan 8, 2022)

I am currently using 5; an adaptation from Katie Carson's Royalty Soaps recipe she provides for free in the description of almost all her YouTube videos (I use Apricot Kernel Oil instead of Sweet Almond).

But sometimes, using less variety of oils can lead to a more complicated recipe.  For example, Zany's no slime castile uses only olive oil, but you'll need to make a faux sea-water solution to compensate for characteristics of a bar of soap using only olive oil.  

You can also play with the SuperFat of a soap.  A soap with 100% coconut oil and 0% Super Fat is so cleansing, it's used for washing dishes and can irritate if used to wash the skin.  A soap with 100% coconut oil and 20-30% super fat would potentially not work as well on dishes, but might be lovely on someone's skin.  (Some people can't use a soap with any coconut oil in it at all).

So, there are many different factors that go into the complexity of a soap recipe; not just the number of oils.


----------



## Babyshoes (Jan 8, 2022)

I have 3 recipes I make fairly regularly, with between 1 and 5 oils/fats/butters. 

Each is quite different and different people have their favourite, for various reasons...


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Jan 8, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> an equal amount of Olive, Coconut and Palm oils are called the "Holy Trinity


Great response! Just one minor correction - the amount of Olive, Coconut and Palm are NOT equal in the Basic Trinity of Oils starter formula.

*Olive Oil 35% * ~ for emollience, conditioning
*Coconut 25%* (or PKO* or Babassu) ~ for hardness, lather
*Palm 40%* (or lard, tallow, shea butter, GV* Shortening from Walmart) ~ for bulk


----------



## MelissaG (Jan 8, 2022)

I use six. Sheabutter, olive oil, coconut oil, palm oil, sweet almond oil and castor oil.


----------



## Relle (Jan 8, 2022)

Six here, mine doesn't change, my recipe is in my head.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 9, 2022)

Relle said:


> Six here, mine doesn't change, my recipe is in my head.


Mine is pretty much in my head now too Relle - as in I don't need to check the recipe each time.  Only if I'm splitting in some oat or coconut milk.


----------



## lenarenee (Jan 9, 2022)

There's no magic in the number of oils used. Soap - and good soap - is far more flexible than you think because it all depends on personal preferences. By all means - try recipes with any abundance of ingredients you want; see what you like and what issues you may or may not have sourcing ingredients. After months of 7, 10 or 12 oil recipes, you may then decide that simpler is better...or not. 

That's what I did; started simple, then went for long recipes and fancy ingredients, and finally returning to mostly simpler recipes because of cost, ease...and lard. Lard is my best friend in soap. Olive oil is not. Enjoy the process of investigating all of those intriguing oils/fats, and you'll figure out what works for you.

Sounds like you may be gearing up to selling since you mentioned the possibility of supply issues. Supply issues will happen - pandemic or no pandemic. So with a history of experimenting with recipes - you'll have some backup recipes in mind when that happens.


----------



## nebetmiw (Jan 9, 2022)

You get the best benefit of each oil if you keep it simple.  3 to 5 oils will give you the best of the oils benefits. Less than 10% is worthless in skin benefit. You must remember soap is a wash off product and only stays on a few minutes at most.


----------



## lenarenee (Jan 9, 2022)

nebetmiw said:


> You get the best benefit of each oil if you keep it simple.  3 to 5 oils will give you the best of the oils benefits. Less than 10% is worthless in skin benefit. You must remember soap is a wash off product and only stays on a few minutes at most.



Are you talking about benefits such as vitamins, antioxidants, polyphenols and etc.?  Oils and saponified oils are 2 different things. Saponified oils are deconstructed; soap is a salt of fatty acids. Vitamins are mostly or completely destroyed.  I've read from chemistry papers that some flavonoids can resist high heat and alkali to a degree....but who knows how that transfers over to soap due to the dozens of process and temperature variables. 

Like many other makers, I like to keep the special oils (like meadow foam, organ, etc) for leave-on times like body butters and lotions.


----------



## TheGecko (Jan 9, 2022)

nebetmiw said:


> You get the best benefit of each oil if you keep it simple. 3 to 5 oils will give you the best of the oils benefits. Less than 10% is worthless in skin benefit. You must remember soap is a wash off product and only stays on a few minutes at most.



Except that the majority of the 'benefits' of those oils are destroyed during the saponification process, not to mention that soap is a wash on/rinse off product that is only your skin for maybe five to minutes.


----------



## msunnerstood (Jan 9, 2022)

I use 6 for my standard recipe but I do have other recipes for when Im out of a certain oil and it hasnt arrived yet.


----------



## Michelle0803 (Jan 10, 2022)

I use 8 butters/oils/fats in my recipe.  I use the same base almost every time.  I have another go-to recipe that uses 5.


----------



## Nona'sFarm (Jan 11, 2022)

For my "regular" recipe I started out with 3 - olive, palm, and coconut. Then I added castor. Then I decided to try decreasing palm because of environmental concerns, so replaced some of the palm with  Shea butter. So currently my masterbatch of oils has 5 oils. But now I am experimenting with replacing more of the palm with soy wax. So soon it may be 6.


----------



## CreativeWeirdo (Jan 14, 2022)

Nona'sFarm said:


> I decided to try decreasing palm because of environmental concerns



I make it a priority to source Palm Oil from a supplier that only sources from members of the RSPO.






						Palm Oil Candora Soap
					

<p>Palm oil is a form of vegetable oil obtained from the fruit of the palm tree. Oil is extracted from both the pulp of the fruit (palm oil) and the kernel (palm kernel oil). Palm oil is the largest natural source of tocotrienol, part of the Vitamin E fam




					candorasoap.ca
				












						Make sustainable palm oil the norm - Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO)
					

When grown sustainably, palm oil protects the environment, communities, employees and wildlife. Discover how RSPO is enabling these positive impacts.




					rspo.org


----------



## Nona'sFarm (Jan 15, 2022)

CreativeWeirdo said:


> I make it a priority to source Palm Oil from a supplier that only sources from members of the RSPO.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do too; just feel it also makes sense to use as little as possible. I also urge others to read labels and make sure that if it lists palm oil, it is sourced by a RSPO supplier.


----------



## Hope Ann (Jan 15, 2022)

I use as few as possible.  Easier to make the labels, and if I get into selling it's less different oils to keep on hand.

Hope


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 17, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> Mine is pretty much in my head now too Relle - as in I don't need to check the recipe each time.  Only if I'm splitting in some oat or coconut milk.


9



TheGecko said:


> Except that the majority of the 'benefits' of those oils are destroyed during the saponification process, not to mention that soap is a wash on/rinse off product that is only your skin for maybe five to minutes.


9
I suppose everyone has their own take on which is better and which works. The calculator tells me the same.  It depends on what we are trying to achieve.  I find that fine tuning my recipes really does make a difference.  I have tried recipes that I've found online that people sell the soap of and have used for 5 years plus but I went back to my multiple oil because the soap is simply better on the skin and brings results.  I have found that using a high percentage of any oil except tallow (sheep, which according to the soapcalc is better than beef tallow in cleansing and conditioning alone).  I have often tried to limit my oils but wind up needing all the balancing of my choice of oils to reach that depth of what I am aiming for.   I WISH I could make it simpler but then I would be compromising on soap and skin benefits.  9 is usually my number unless its more and then I add silica gel and molasses and all the other stuff and sometimes oils that I cannot find in the soap calc such as camomille oil or rosemary (not essential) so I add them after trace.  It works for me.


----------



## lianasouza (Feb 17, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> oils that I cannot find in the soap calc such as camomille oil or rosemary (not essential)



Those are probably herbal extracts made in a vegetable oil base. If that is the case, the manufacturer should be able to inform which oil they use (olive, sunflower or whatever) so you can include it in a soap calculator if you want.


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 17, 2022)

lianasouza said:


> Those are probably herbal extracts made in a vegetable oil base. If that is the case, the manufacturer should be able to inform which oil they use (olive, sunflower or whatever) so you can include it in a soap calculador if you want.


Ah yes, that is true, the base is often sesame oil for oils like the rosemary, and the frankincense thank you - I should have come to that myself - but didn't.  That's why this forum is so great.  
This has helped me - made life a little simpler.
Do you also recommend to add the molasses at trace? Sorry, a bit off topic.


----------



## lianasouza (Feb 17, 2022)

You can start a new thread about molasses sharing your experiences and asking further questions. I have never used it but would love to learn more about it!


----------



## TheGecko (Feb 17, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> 9
> I suppose everyone has their own take on which is better and which works. The calculator tells me the same.  It depends on what we are trying to achieve.  I find that fine tuning my recipes really does make a difference.  I have tried recipes that I've found online that people sell the soap of and have used for 5 years plus but I went back to my multiple oil because the soap is simply better on the skin and brings results.  I have found that using a high percentage of any oil except tallow (sheep, which according to the soapcalc is better than beef tallow in cleansing and conditioning alone).  I have often tried to limit my oils but wind up needing all the balancing of my choice of oils to reach that depth of what I am aiming for.   I WISH I could make it simpler but then I would be compromising on soap and skin benefits.  9 is usually my number unless its more and then I add silica gel and molasses and all the other stuff and sometimes oils that I cannot find in the soap calc such as camomille oil or rosemary (not essential) so I add them after trace.  It works for me.



Here's the deal...if nine makes you happy then go for it.  But it doesn't take away from what I said.


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 17, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> Here's the deal...if nine makes you happy then go for it.  But it doesn't take away from what I said.


I try to be scientific rather than emotional (happy).


----------



## TheGecko (Feb 17, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> ☺I try to be scientific rather than emotional (happy).



Nothing wrong with emotional. I was taking a shower last week and was just so tickled with how well my soap lathered…it was like I was in a commercial. Put a smile on my face all day.

My hubby is all about the bubbles and I did try to make HIM happy.  Then my daughter comes out of the bath wanting to know what’s wrong with my soap.


----------



## Hope Ann (Feb 18, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> Nothing wrong with emotional. I was taking a shower last week and was just so tickled with how well my soap lathered…it was like I was in a commercial. Put a smile on my face all day.
> 
> My hubby is all about the bubbles and I did try to make HIM happy.  Then my daughter comes out of the bath wanting to know what’s wrong with my soap.



Problem with that is your water bill goes way up because you're enjoying your soap so much you lather up twice or thrice.  I've been tweaking my formulas again and have 6-7 ends in my bathroom right now.  I may or may not wash my hands 5950193 times a day because I want to feel my creamy lather soap.  

Hope


----------



## TheGecko (Feb 18, 2022)

Hope Ann said:


> Problem with that is your water bill goes way up because you're enjoying your soap so much you lather up twice or thrice.  I've been tweaking my formulas again and have 6-7 ends in my bathroom right now.  I may or may not wash my hands 5950193 times a day because I want to feel my creamy lather soap.



It hasn't been that bad, but no denying that bathing is a lot more enjoyable.  In our old office, I kept the bathrooms supplied with my soap since it was just basically one company, but when the partnership didn't work out we moved into a regular commercial office and there is nowhere to keep my soap so I would have to carry it with me.  It's just easier to have lotion bars at our desks.


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 18, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> Nothing wrong with emotional. I was taking a shower last week and was just so tickled with how well my soap lathered…it was like I was in a commercial. Put a smile on my face all day.
> 
> My hubby is all about the bubbles and I did try to make HIM happy.  Then my daughter comes out of the bath wanting to know what’s wrong with my soap.


Thats beautiful.  No there is nothing wrong at all qbout being happy that your work is making your family happy and being noticed.  But the way I understood 'if it makes you happy' concerning the number of oils used - this is where science should rule in order to get to thqt happy place.  And because of that I have to say that incremental increases from the benefits of particular oils such as wheat germ or pomegranate (for which there is no substitute for its pumicic acid


Hope Ann said:


> Problem with that is your water bill goes way up because you're enjoying your soap so much you lather up twice or thrice.  I've been tweaking my formulas again and have 6-7 ends in my bathroom right now.  I may or may not wash my hands 5950193 times a day because I want to feel my creamy lather soap.
> 
> Hope


Oh MY GOD.so this IS a thing.  Do we ALL do that? I though perhaps I was trying to remember the properties if jy soap so that I could memorize the distinction.  Its true I wear out soap from over washing over lathering too.  OCD?



TheGecko said:


> Nothing wrong with emotional. I was taking a shower last week and was just so tickled with how well my soap lathered…it was like I was in a commercial. Put a smile on my face all day.
> 
> My hubby is all about the bubbles and I did try to make HIM happy.  Then my daughter comes out of the bath wanting to know what’s wrong with my soap.


----------



## Susie (Feb 19, 2022)

I use 4-5. Same basic recipe, just sometimes I substitute shortening for lard, and it has two ingredients rather than just one. I have had as many as twelve oils in one recipe until I actually started testing soaps for what I and my family enjoyed. Now I just keep it simple:

65% lard, tallow, palm, or shortening that contain palm and tallow
15% olive oil
15% coconut oil
5% castor oil


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 19, 2022)

Susie said:


> I use 4-5. Same basic recipe, just sometimes I substitute shortening for lard, and it has two ingredients rather than just one. I have had as many as twelve oils in one recipe until I actually started testing soaps for what I and my family enjoyed. Now I just keep it simple:
> 
> 65% lard, tallow, palm, or shortening that contain palm and tallow
> 15% olive oil
> ...


I have done this very recipe.  I believe it is like this from marissa.  I was all excited about it (her shampoo bar).  Didn't like it.  It lathered, cleansed but felt a little dry on my hands.  My friend however, loved it. My friend has oily skin.  I went back to my multiple oils because I really believe that my wheat germ, grape seed pomegranate oil, sesame and almond oil make a lot of difference.  Then I add ostrich oil and its very luxurious.  I also have a donkey oil but I'm keeping it for cream.  It could be because I live in a dry area and need something to balance the coconut more than the olive oil.  It would have been a simple solution which is what I was looking for but I wound up going back to where I began.  If it works for you - great you could simplify.

I used sheep for the tallow and it has higher cleansing and conditioning than beef according to soapcalc.  But still it was not enough to compensate for the coconut oil.  Thinking of leaving the coconut oil out but what does everyone reckon with a 14 on cleansing? Is it enough for shower and everyday cleansing? What about hair?  I have 19 right now and I dont know if it may be too high.  My suspiscion is yes.


----------



## TheGecko (Feb 19, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> this is where science should rule in order to get to thqt happy place.



Maybe, maybe not.  I didn't know anything of the 'science' of making soap when I started out...I saw the Fatty Acids on SoapCalc and promptly ignored them because they meant absolutely nothing to be.  Didn't understand the saponification process, thought 'curing' was about water evaporation to make your soap 'harder'.  'Super fat'...I'll just leave it where it is.  Instead I took a base recipe I had, put it into SoapCalc and then started playing around with different oils and butters that _sounded_ good and were available through the suppliers I was using.  _Oh yes...Macadamia Nut Oil sounds wonderful, let's use some of that.  Avocado Butter...yes please.  I love chocolate, let's add some Cocoa Butter.  _When I modified my Regular recipe to make Goat Milk Soap...there was no 'science' involved either, it was all 'gut' (emotion).

With that said, it wasn't all 'emotion'...I'm an accountant and a Virgo and had to figure out how to make a champagne soap on a beer budget.  LOL  I love me some good soap, but I also can't see spending $12.00 on something that is just supposed to get me clean (says the woman who pays $40.00 for SOCK yarn***).  Yet at the same time, there are hundreds of thousands of folks making soap so I still need to make a good quality soap that people will be willing to pay more for than the stuff in the grocery store that also 'gets me clean'.


*** - In my defense, a well-made pair of socks will last for years.


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 19, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> Maybe, maybe not.  I didn't know anything of the 'science' of making soap when I started out...I saw the Fatty Acids on SoapCalc and promptly ignored them because they meant absolutely nothing to be.  Didn't understand the saponification process, thought 'curing' was about water evaporation to make your soap 'harder'.  'Super fat'...I'll just leave it where it is.  Instead I took a base recipe I had, put it into SoapCalc and then started playing around with different oils and butters that _sounded_ good and were available through the suppliers I was using.  _Oh yes...Macadamia Nut Oil sounds wonderful, let's use some of that.  Avocado Butter...yes please.  I love chocolate, let's add some Cocoa Butter.  _When I modified my Regular recipe to make Goat Milk Soap...there was no 'science' involved either, it was all 'gut' (emotion).
> 
> With that said, it wasn't all 'emotion'...I'm an accountant and a Virgo and had to figure out how to make a champagne soap on a beer budget.  LOL  I love me some good soap, but I also can't see spending $12.00 on something that is just supposed to get me clean (says the woman who pays $40.00 for SOCK yarn***).  Yet at the same time, there are hundreds of thousands of folks making soap so I still need to make a good quality soap that people will be willing to pay more for than the stuff in the grocery store that also 'gets me clean'.
> 
> ...


I appreciate all your responses.  They're fun.  You MAKE SOCKS? If there is one indulgence in the world I love as much or more than soap, it's  hand knitted socks.  That is luxury and totally antidepressive.  My aunt from finland always made us when she visited.  But I CANNOT MAKE SOCKS.  Willing to swap socks for crochet baskets!!!  I would also pay more for a good yarn.
About the science.  Even though we begin with gut, and rightfully we should, because intuition (heart and gut is located below the brain).  If it does not feel right dont even go to the next level.  But when experience comes in, we need to begin to think and reason and apply knowledge and thats what I mean.  Yes I also didn't know ANYTHING about soap a few long months ago but I loved the whole idea and knew the feeling I wanted so although I took a completely different approach, and approach that will make no sense to anyone on here (trust me on this) that intuition must be there to guide us or the science means nothing. 
The first thing that people said when they tried the soap I made was "I cannot describe how clean I feel" this was motivating.  I began with rebatching and adding my own oils to the natural soap that I was working with.
I agree with what you say completely, we are just saying the same thing in a different way.  Enjoy your socks and be grateful that you can make them yourself. .likewise with soap.  I still have the hand made socks from my aunty.  Love them.xx


----------



## dibbles (Feb 19, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> I used sheep for the tallow and it has higher cleansing and conditioning than beef according to soapcalc.


I have seen you make this statement a few times. I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of the term 'cleansing' in Soapcalc. All soap has the ability to clean, even with a cleansing value of 0. Cleansing in Soapcalc can be equated to how stripping of the natural oils on the skin a soap is. A lower cleansing number = a more gentle soap. Also, the conditioning  value for beef tallow is 40 and for sheep tallow is 31. So IMO beef tallow is a better choice.

You might find this interesting Soapcalc numbers | Soapy Stuff


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 19, 2022)

dibbles said:


> I have seen you make this statement a few times. I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of the term 'cleansing' in Soapcalc. All soap has the ability to clean, even with a cleansing value of 0. Cleansing in Soapcalc can be equated to how stripping of the natural oils on the skin a soap is. A lower cleansing number = a more gentle soap. Also, the conditioning  value for beef tallow is 40 and for sheep tallow is 31. So IMO beef tallow is a better choice.
> 
> You might find this interesting Soapcalc numbers | Soapy Stuff





dibbles said:


> I have seen you make this statement a few times. I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of the term 'cleansing' in Soapcalc. All soap has the ability to clean, even with a cleansing value of 0. Cleansing in Soapcalc can be equated to how stripping of the natural oils on the skin a soap is. A lower cleansing number = a more gentle soap. Also, the conditioning  value for beef tallow is 40 and for sheep tallow is 31. So IMO beef tallow is a better choice.
> 
> You might find this interesting Soapcalc numbers | Soapy Stuff













HoliHealerz said:


>



So in other words we should aim at an oil that has the lower cleansing number unless we are a gardener or mechanic or just filthy? and highest conditioning?
So camel (carrot seed on soap calc) literally has a zero.  So I don't need to add coconut oil and sheep tallow for it to be cleansing for daily use?  Ok in that case why are we 'told' that we shouldnt use canola or safflower or was it sunflower or maybe all (alone) because the cleansing is zero and they don't clean well (or at all). 
For me that would be great to use beef because its so much cheaper than sheep because people here prefer the meat of sheep (better quality on the whole).

Could gentle cleanser be another word for low cleansing ability?  
Some of what you said does make sense because I have been thinking of cutting my coconut oil out or down to 5% its just too dry above that.  In fact even before I ever used coconut oil I plugged it in and came up with a 5% safe use and didnt listen to my own calculations.  Experience taught me that I was right.  Besides if we use tallow, coconut oil sort of covers the beautiful effects of the tallow which was awesome alone.  But I still wondered about the 14 number.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Feb 19, 2022)

Keep in mind, the numbers on SoapCalc are meant to be "guidelines" for designing your own formulas. It is only through trial and error that you find the formula that works best for you and possibly for others you intend to share your soap with.


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 19, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Keep in mind, the numbers on SoapCalc are meant to be "guidelines" for designing your own formulas. It is only through trial and error that you find the formula that works best for you and possibly for others you intend to share your soap with.


Yeah, still trying to get my head around that concept.



Zany_in_CO said:


> Keep in mind, the numbers on SoapCalc are meant to be "guidelines" for designing your own formulas. It is only through trial and error that you find the formula that works best for you and possibly for others you intend to share your soap with.


I suppose that human nature is that we want to rely on numbers.  When we can't it brings up complexes.


----------



## dibbles (Feb 19, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> we should aim at an oil that has the lower cleansing number


That is personal preference. I often make soaps with a cleansing number of 15-17 and it is fine for me. Other people would find that to be too drying. 


HoliHealerz said:


> why are we 'told' that we shouldnt use canola or safflower or was it sunflower or maybe all (alone) because the cleansing is zero and they don't clean well (or at all).


I don't know where you heard this. 100% olive oil soap is used by many who love it, and it has a 'cleansing' value of 0. All soap has the ability to clean. Again, equate 'cleansing' in soap.calc speak to 'stripping' rather than the ability to remove dirt from your skin. I think there are reasons that most 100% oil recipes don't make great soap, but the ability to clean isn't one of them.


HoliHealerz said:


> In fact even before I ever used coconut oil I plugged it in and came up with a 5% safe use


I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Lots of people make 100% coconut oil soap and it is safe to use. 

I think starting a new thread would be best if you still have questions. We're getting off topic here.


----------



## Steve85569 (Feb 19, 2022)

I am stuck on 4 or 5 oils. Long shelf life and easy for me. 
That and we like the soap in my family. Good lather and not too oil stripping on my old skin.
Shea, Coconut, Lard, Castor and soy wax.
Most times a touch of sodium citrate and sodium acetate just for fun.


----------



## peacefulheart (Feb 19, 2022)

CelestialLizzie said:


> There's old engineering mantra that says something like "the more complicated something is, the more that can go wrong" and that can also apply to practically anything, like a large variety of oils you always use for soap. What if one of them isout of stock, you don't realize it's gone bad, the source you buy one of your oils from is getting _their _oils from somewhere else and you notice a difference in quality, etc. More of a variety of oils = more bad things that could happen.
> I know the simple 30/30/30/10 recipe from brambleberry seems to be used almost universally, and I wanted something a little more complex than that - but it occurred to me that that may not be a great idea for the reasons above. I was looking at something with 7 different oils, which seems insane, but I figured I might ask to see if anyone else uses more than 3, 4, or even 5 oils on a regular basis.


I use 13


----------



## ResolvableOwl (Feb 19, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> Ok in that case why are we 'told' that we shouldnt use canola or safflower or was it sunflower or maybe all (alone) because the cleansing is zero and they don't clean well (or at all).


Canola and sunflower oils make fabulous liquid soaps, and they have their place in bar soap recipes too. I hereby officially give you the permission to use these oils.

BTW, who “told” you that carrot seed oil is a viable replacement of camel tallow? It is not difficult to find out that it isn't. By far. Carrot seed oil is listed by soap calculators with K-SAP=0.144, which is *30% lower than the actual value* of K-SAP=202.3 per the above source. When you use this value, you are producing soap that has a staggering 30% superfat. No wonder that you are disappointed with your soaps, all their cleansing power is already occupied by unreacted fat.

“Scientific thinking” does not _end_ with numbers, it _starts_ there. Please be more skeptical.


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 20, 2022)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Canola and sunflower oils make fabulous liquid soaps, and they have their place in bar soap recipes too. I hereby officially give you the permission to use these oils.
> 
> BTW, who “told” you that carrot seed oil is a viable replacement of camel tallow? It is not difficult to find out that it isn't. By far. Carrot seed oil is listed by soap calculators with K-SAP=0.144, which is *30% lower than the actual value* of K-SAP=202.3 per the above source. When you use this value, you are producing soap that has a staggering 30% superfat. No wonder that you are disappointed with your soaps, all their cleansing power is already occupied by unreacted fat.
> 
> “Scientific thinking” does not _end_ with numbers, it _starts_ there. Please be more skeptical.


Thank you so much for your explanation about the sunflower and saflower oils.  Very useful but I was actually referring to bar soap rather than liquid.  But still its a useful fact to know.  

Actually, it was on here I will try to find the place where it was written by a member.  But then if its not carrot seed oil how can I find out what to use on a soap calc and the other ladies using camel were also using carrot seed oil.  Where did I say that I was disapppointed with any of my soaps, its better not to add to what I say.
Scientific thinking begins with numbers? No, I would not agree that it begins OR ends with numbers but numbers MUST be reliable.  It begins with observation through the senses and ends with understanding and experiential knowledge.



dibbles said:


> That is personal preference. I often make soaps with a cleansing number of 15-17 and it is fine for me. Other people would find that to be too drying.
> 
> I don't know where you heard this. 100% olive oil soap is used by many who love it, and it has a 'cleansing' value of 0. All soap has the ability to clean. Again, equate 'cleansing' in soap.calc speak to 'stripping' rather than the ability to remove dirt from your skin. I think there are reasons that most 100% oil recipes don't make great soap, but the ability to clean isn't one of them.
> 
> ...


----------



## ResolvableOwl (Feb 20, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> Actually, it was on here I will try to find the place where it was written by a member.


Then it's easy! Just ask said member, why they think that carrot seed oil (30% lower SAP, *off by a factor 9 *with longevity number (palmitic, stearic), and missing all of the appeciable 9% myristic acid) is anywhere close to camel fat. There are MANY oils that are MUCH closer to this FA profile. If you have got an oil that isn't “canonical”, it's your duty to find how to work with it, by proper research, not just random hearsay. SMF is not magically safe from stupid mistakes. Please be more skeptical.


----------



## HoliHealerz (Feb 20, 2022)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Then it's easy! Just ask said member, why they think that carrot seed oil (30% lower SAP, *off by a factor 9 *with longevity number (palmitic, stearic), and missing all of the appeciable 9% myristic acid) is anywhere close to camel fat. There are MANY oils that are MUCH closer to this FA profile. If you have got an oil that isn't “canonical”, it's your duty to find how to work with it, by proper research, not just random hearsay. SMF is not magically safe from stupid mistakes. Please be more skeptical.


I posted the thread.
I actually looked around a lot to find my answers about camel fat but since most of the posters are in places where camel oil is expensive, there is little or no information.  I will habe to make a 100% camel oil and test myself.  However, I recently came across an article about a German back packer in Australia who made camel fat soap because they had a lot of fat from the poor camels that had to be 'shot' if I remember correctly, in the outbacks.  It won a soap competition.  But she used a % of coconut oil with it.  I have not been in soaping very long and covered many grounds in that very short time so time is what I need.  There is another man in UAE who makes soap and cream with camel fat but said there was a secret tomrendering.the fat and I dont know if his soaps are 100% camel.  I do render my own and it comes out perfect so I dont now what secret he had.  But I will keep trying and all these criticisms on here or matter of fact responses only help me.  Thank you everyone.


----------



## Hope Ann (Feb 20, 2022)

Susie said:


> I use 4-5. Same basic recipe, just sometimes I substitute shortening for lard, and it has two ingredients rather than just one. I have had as many as twelve oils in one recipe until I actually started testing soaps for what I and my family enjoyed. Now I just keep it simple:
> 
> 65% lard, tallow, palm, or shortening that contain palm and tallow
> 15% olive oil
> ...



And I'm betting that makes a creamy lather that feels lovely after the bath.

Hope


----------



## Susie (Mar 12, 2022)

It does. and it is very kind to my eczema prone skin.


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 13, 2022)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Then it's easy! Just ask said member, why they think that carrot seed oil (30% lower SAP, *off by a factor 9 *with longevity number (palmitic, stearic), and missing all of the appeciable 9% myristic acid) is anywhere close to camel fat. There are MANY oils that are MUCH closer to this FA profile. If you have got an oil that isn't “canonical”, it's your duty to find how to work with it, by proper research, not just random hearsay. SMF is not magically safe from stupid mistakes. Please be more skeptical.


In case any one reads this comment about using the carrot oil sap value I am the "said", member. I did a lot of research for sap values for camel fat when none were readily available. The paper I found on it gave a sap value that was very close carrot seed oil. I was adding a line of Camel milk soaps which I made and sold for about 3 yrs using the carrot sap with a 2% superfat.

I am aware this poster is not available at this time. I have only replied to clear up the question and assure the sap does work, at least for the camel fat I purchased.


----------

