# Pros and cons with using different types of milk



## kagey (Aug 19, 2021)

Goat's milk, cow's milk, breast milk, yogurt, coconut milk, condensed milk, buttermilk.... you name it, i've read something about it... 

I've been researching the pros and cons on the different types of milk.
But I have yet to find a good resource that talks about the chemistry of this: 
i.e., fatty acids, boiling points (curdling) and sugar content

Does anyone know the pros and cons of these?
If you could only use one, which one would it be? 
I know there's a trend towards Goat's Milk and it's used in marketing -- but is it really superior to all the others?

Wish I knew how to track down Dr. McSoapy (Kevin Dunn) - I would bet he's done some testing on this....


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## Arimara (Aug 19, 2021)

People who like milk soaps like what they like. None of those soaps are any better than the other unless you have allergies or are sensitive to higher amounts of coconut. From experience, I can say that goat's milk tended to be the most gentle of what you listed, butter can be a bit more cleansing but still pleasant, coconut milk involves som serious math depending on the type and fat content you use, and yogurt is better left for HP soap. I have/will not use breast milk in soap and condensed milk has too much sugar for me to use alone.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 19, 2021)

I make vegan soap so have only used coconut milk.  I use it regularly.  I adapt my recipe to use it (more lye, less water), but essentially all it brings to the table is a little extra superfat and some sugar as i understand it.  But it does have label appeal


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## AliOop (Aug 19, 2021)

I personally love both goat milk and coconut milk, whether fresh or powdered. They do have a nice feel to them. Planning to try oat milk but I have (and love) colloidal oats so I'm not very motivated to go to the extra trouble to make the milk.

As an aside, a friend who had tried lots of my soaps recently tried a ZNSC bar with goat milk. I didn't tell her it had goat milk in it, nor did she know that the others she'd tried did not have GM. She called me up raving about it and said she keeps going back to wash because the lather feels so amazing. Her words, "I love love love this soap. I must have more of this soap. However you made it, do the exact same thing again and give it all to me."

Me: "So just to be sure I'm understanding you, are you saying you like this soap?" 

Seriously, some say that milk is only for label appeal. But some of us do feel a difference. That's what so fun - make it the way you like it!


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## dibbles (Aug 19, 2021)

As a new soap maker and wanting to try all.the.things, I made and used oat milk, and made soap with buttermilk, goats milk, heavy cream, coconut milk and yogurt. They are all nice soaps. Mostly now I keep a can of coconut milk on hand so it’s available if I want to include it in a soap, and if I have buttermilk left over from baking I freeze it to use in soap to keep it from going to waste. That said, I am using a goats milk soap right now from another maker, and am reminded of how nice it is. Enough that I looked for goat milk powder at my regular grocery store, which evidently quit stocking it at some point


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## AliOop (Aug 20, 2021)

@dibbles you just reminded me that I'm running low on GMP. 

WSP has it for $1.44/oz, but it requires a $25 minimum order and wouldn't arrive for weeks. Thankfully, my local Whole Foods has it for $1.17/oz. They deliver for free with orders over $45.  Adding it to my grocery order now -thank you!


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## dibbles (Aug 20, 2021)

@AliOop I thought Whole Foods would probably have it. There is one near the Trader Joe's I shop at, so will check the next time I am in that area. Thank you!

ETA: Amazon has it for $1.15/oz if I get desperate.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 20, 2021)

Oh!  I didn't even think of oat milk which I use quite regularly too.  I make my own.  I like all my soap, and don't really notice any difference in the 'feel' of one bar to another.  Having said that, I use 'something' in all my soap.  I never just use plain distilled water.


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## Mobjack Bay (Aug 20, 2021)

Milks vary in composition. Some will add relatively more or less sugar or short chain fatty acids. Depending on how much you’re using and the type of milk, it may make sense to consider the composition in recipe formulation. Here are the links I have saved for reference:









						Composition, Structure, and Digestive Dynamics of Milk From Different Species—A Review
					

Background: The traditional dairy-cattle-based industry is becoming increasingly diversified with milk and milk products from non-cattle dairy species. The interest in non-cattle milks has increased because there have been several anecdotal reports about the nutritional benefits of these milks...




					www.frontiersin.org
				



”Sheep and goat milk fats are known to be rich in short chain (responsible for the distinct flavor of these milks) and medium chain triacylglycerols (TAGs)” 

Focusing on fatty acid profile in milk from different species after in vitro digestion | Journal of Dairy Research | Cambridge Core (provides FA % composition for milks and digested milks)

Based on composition, the animal milks fall more or less into three groups: (1j ruminant = cow, goat, sheep (most fat, especially sheep), (2) non-ruminant = horse, donkey (less fat, more sugar compared with ruminants) and (3) human (high in sugar compared with ruminant milk; between ruminants and non-ruminants in fat content).  

Plant/seed/nut-derived milks vary considerably depending on source.








						Oat milk - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				








						The Chemistry of Coconut Milk and Cream
					






					coconuthandbook.tetrapak.com
				











						(PDF) Fatty acid composition and possible health effects of coconut constituents
					

PDF | The link between excessive consumption of dietary saturated fats and coronary heart disease (CHD) is now well established. Because of its high... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net


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## LynetteO (Aug 20, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I personally love both goat milk and coconut milk, whether fresh or powdered. They do have a nice feel to them. Planning to try oat milk but I have (and love) colloidal oats so I'm not very motivated to go to the extra trouble to make the milk.
> 
> As an aside, a friend who had tried lots of my soaps recently tried a ZNSC bar with goat milk. I didn't tell her it had goat milk in it, nor did she know that the others she'd tried did not have GM. She called me up raving about it and said she keeps going back to wash because the lather feels so amazing. Her words, "I love love love this soap. I must have more of this soap. However you made it, do the exact same thing again and give it all to me."
> 
> ...


 I definitely noticed that I was in love with ZNSC that I did make with some goat milk (.7 of the 1.7 liquid) but it was also my very 1st batch of ZNSC so I assumed it was just a fabulous recipe, IT VERY MUCH IS. However I will happily take opportunity to make another batch without the milk to see. Love  ZNSC so much!


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## amd (Aug 20, 2021)

I can't speak on the science of it but here's my thoughts.


kagey said:


> Goat's milk, cow's milk, breast milk, yogurt, coconut milk, condensed milk, buttermilk


GM: I've used and honestly I can't tell the difference between that and CM other than the smell
Breast Milk: I make custom batches for mamas, it makes a nice soap, but I understand the "heebie jeebies" associated with using someone else's milk. Honestly I cringe a little when testing the soap.
Yogurt: My personal favorite simply because a little goes a long way, and it's lotiony
Coconut Milk: I use this often, it's comparable (to me) to GM but without the smell
Buttermilk: My second favorite, similar to yogurt in lotion quality but it gets a bit better lather. I use this in my OMH lineup.



kagey said:


> I know there's a trend towards Goat's Milk and it's used in marketing -- but is it really superior to all the others?


I don't think so, I would never dismiss a soap because it doesn't have GM - but admit I have passed on GM soaps because of the smell.



Arimara said:


> coconut milk involves som serious math depending on the type and fat content you use


Other than subtracting from my water amount, I have never done math for using CM.



AliOop said:


> But some of us do feel a difference.


I used to agree with this, but then Dibbles did some testing with various ingredients. I discovered that a couple soaps that I thought were milk soaps were using sorbitol. So I've adjusted my thinking to "I can tell when additives are used and it's more than a lye + water + oils soap".


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## AliOop (Aug 20, 2021)

@amd I agree that it can be hard to tell what additive is making the soap feel so nice. I should have mentioned that I use sorbitol in almost every batch, including my GMP batches. So the difference this person was feeling was the GMP.

We already knew that she loves high OO soaps, but her reaction is making me expand my line to include this, bc she’s not the first to swoon over it. I do admit to loving, it too, despite the fact that I generally shun OO in my soaps bc it dries my skin. But this ZNSC w/15% CO and 5% castor, plus the GMP and sorbitol, doesn’t do that at all. I’m shocked frankly and am going to try it with some other soft oils to see if I can get the same feel for less $$$.


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## LynetteO (Aug 20, 2021)

Oy Vey, I’m almost afraid to ask… 

Have I been using powdered CM incorrectly?!?? I make small (16oz oil) batches, & have been tossing in 1tsp of powdered CM to my oils & blending, prior to adding the lye solution. I’ve never adjusted my water or lye. I do superfat @ 4%. Does the fat of the CM affect the amount of lye needed?


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## AliOop (Aug 20, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> Oy Vey, I’m almost afraid to ask…
> 
> Have I been using powdered CM incorrectly?!?? I make small (16oz oil) batches, & have been tossing in 1tsp of powdered CM to my oils & blending, prior to adding the lye solution. I’ve never adjusted my water or lye. I do superfat @ 4%. Does the fat of the CM affect the amount of lye needed?


I don’t change my SF either, but I only start at 2 or 3% anyway.


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## Arimara (Aug 20, 2021)

@amd The varieties of coconut milk I have used had enough fat in it to drive up the superfat and bump up the cleansing factor. Especially now, I don't like doing the math with how much to use with this and that. I make too many mistakes now. Sure I can use low fat but I also drink coconut milk and I'm leery of low-fat varieties.


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## amd (Aug 20, 2021)

Arimara said:


> The varieties of coconut milk I have used had enough fat in it to drive up the superfat and bump up the cleansing factor.


Ahhh... that may be the difference. I use a low SF and low CO recipe, and only use milks 50/50 (or less in the case of buttermilk and yogurt). I wouldn't say that math is required to use CM though. I think there's quite a few on the forum besides me who don't have concern for the SF or cleansing numbers based on our recipe when using CM.


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## Arimara (Aug 20, 2021)

@amd That's true but I like to make sure that type of soap feels right, if I make it. I don't always do a 50/50 method and with coconut milk, I have never don't that. So in essence, I'm dealing with extra fat and stuff that you may not be dealing with.


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## amd (Aug 20, 2021)

Arimara said:


> So in essence, I'm dealing with extra fat and stuff that you may not be dealing with.


My point is that it is not necessary to do math with CM. You can choose to do so, but if you don't it will still make soap.


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## Carly B (Aug 20, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> Oy Vey, I’m almost afraid to ask…
> 
> Have I been using powdered CM incorrectly?!?? I make small (16oz oil) batches, & have been tossing in 1tsp of powdered CM to my oils & blending, prior to adding the lye solution. I’ve never adjusted my water or lye. I do superfat @ 4%. Does the fat of the CM affect the amount of lye needed?



I do pretty much the same with powdered goatmilk, only I uses more than a tsp, I think.  Whatever size the scoop is in the can.  I LOVE goatmilk in soap, haven't tried the others, but the thought of yogurt intrigues me.  We usually get the non-fat Greek yogurt, so I don't think that will work the same way, since there is no fat and a lot of the liquid was strained out.  But I don't know for sure.


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## amd (Aug 20, 2021)

Carly B said:


> We usually get the non-fat Greek yogurt, so I don't think that will work the same way, since there is no fat and a lot of the liquid was strained out. But I don't know for sure.


Non-fat simply means you don't have fats to react with the lye. There still should be plenty of milk proteins to contribute to the benefits of adding it to your soap. Now I'm curious to try a batch of each to compare. I usually make my own yogurt, so I don't know if that also changes the way it would behave in soap. I'm thinking though that the difference between fat and non-fat is only a slight change in superfat, probably not noticeable.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 20, 2021)

amd said:


> I don't think so, I would never dismiss a soap because it doesn't have GM - but admit I have passed on GM soaps because of the smell.


That's funny, I have not notices a smell in my goats milk soap.  I thought my unscented bars just smelled like the shea butter I used in them.  Maybe it depends on the quality of goats milk you are using.  I'm using it basically straight from the goat.


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## The_Phoenix (Aug 20, 2021)

Goat milk and whole milk are comparable in their fat% and sugar content:

1 cup of whole milk = 8 g of fat and 12g of sugar(s)
1 cup of goat milk = 7g of fat and 11g of sugar(s)

For a comparison:

1 cup of oat milk has 5g of fat and 9 g of sugar(s). And it's more expensive than goat and cow's milk.
1 cup of unsweetened coconut milk has 4g of fat and 1g of sugar.

As for protein, I don't know how it gets broken down during the saponification process and if it has any impact on the qualities in the soap.


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## John Harris (Aug 20, 2021)

AliOop said:


> As an aside, a friend who had tried lots of my soaps recently tried a ZNSC bar with goat milk.



Ok... I went to the abbreviations page again.  Not there.   What is ZNSC?


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## AliOop (Aug 20, 2021)

John Harris said:


> Ok... I went to the abbreviations page again.  Not there.   What is ZNSC?


Sorry about that... it is Zany's No-Slime Castile recipe. There are several long threads on it and I assumed the acronym had made it to the acronym thread, too. My apologies!


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 20, 2021)

The_Phoenix said:


> Goat milk and whole milk are comparable in their fat% and sugar content:
> 
> 1 cup of whole milk = 8 g of fat and 12g of sugar(s)
> 1 cup of goat milk = 7g of fat and 11g of sugar(s)
> ...



Oat milk is super duper cheap if you make it yourself! And then you know it only has oat and distilled water in it too.  A 1kg bag of rolled oats is only a couple of dollars and is sufficient to make enough oat milk for more than 8 batches of soap.

I have my can of Coconut milk here and it says it has 82g of fat and 10.8 total carbs (6.4 of sugar). So per cup that works out to approx 46g fat and 2g carbohydrates (1.2g sugar). I don't buy low fat and I actually buy coconut cream, not milk.

@LynetteO I have only used canned CM which required a different process to just adding powder - so I'm sure you are fine.


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## The_Phoenix (Aug 20, 2021)

@KiwiMoose Ah. I just have coconut milk. One day I need to try coconut cream in soap instead. And good point about homemade oat milk.


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## JoyfulSudz (Aug 21, 2021)

The_Phoenix said:


> 1 cup of goat milk = 7g of fat and 11g of sugar(s)


Just a note of goat trivia:  All goat milk is not created equal.  Like cow milk, if it is a commercial brand from the supermarket, it is standardized, but if it is fresh from the goat, fat content varies quite a bit depending upon the breed and the individual goat. Nubians, for example, are known for rich high-fat milk, while Saanens are known for lower-fat but high quantity.


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## Basil (Aug 21, 2021)

JoyfulSudz said:


> Just a note of goat trivia:  All goat milk is not created equal.  Like cow milk, if it is a commercial brand from the supermarket, it is standardized, but if it is fresh from the goat, fat content varies quite a bit depending upon the breed and the individual goat. Nubians, for example, are known for rich high-fat milk, while Saanens are known for lower-fat but high quantity.


Yes, so true! And Nigerians, which is what I have, are higher in butterfat at 6-10%, more than most breeds. Feed also makes a difference. Goat milk is naturally homogenized so the fat is evenly distributed. It’s lovely to make soap with .  I use 100% or 50/50 with another liquid like beer , juices and aloe Vera juice so far. As @KiwiMoose said, I’ve thought of making my own oat milk but combining it with goat milk - double milk . I dried some goat milk last week in the dehydrator so I’m looking forward to trying that too. Because the milk is so fatty it took a long time. It dried yellow due to heat .  I’m not sure what it’s like from the stores…


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## SoapLover1 (Aug 22, 2021)

Hi! Just want to chime in that Oat & Almond Milk is not milk. Milk comes from Mammary Glands (Breasts) so only animals produce It.


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## melinda48 (Aug 23, 2021)

amd said:


> I can't speak on the science of it but here's my thoughts.
> 
> GM: I've used and honestly I can't tell the difference between that and CM other than the smell
> Breast Milk: I make custom batches for mamas, it makes a nice soap, but I understand the "heebie jeebies" associated with using someone else's milk. Honestly I cringe a little when testing the soap.
> ...


I definitely feel a difference using goat milk. I use it powdered and scent with Lavender EO. It sells out every time. I love the creamy lather and the way it feels on my skin when washing with it.


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## amd (Aug 24, 2021)

melinda48 said:


> I definitely feel a difference using goat milk. I use it powdered


Have you compared it to CM? I can't tell the difference between canned CM and GM (other than GM smells), used in the same amounts. I can tell a difference between a plain soap (just water) and a milk soap. I know GM has huge label appeal, just by the number of people who will walk away from my booth because it's not GM.


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## kagey (Aug 24, 2021)

Anyone ever try or have any success using Kefir milk?
Or yogurt? (if so, what kind of yogurt do you think works best?)
Thanks


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## LynetteO (Aug 24, 2021)

kagey said:


> Anyone ever try or have any success using Kefir milk?
> Or yogurt? (if so, what kind of yogurt do you think works best?)
> Thanks


Check out post #11, this thread. @amd uses yogurt.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 25, 2021)

Speaking of yoghurt...
Has anyone ever used coconut yoghurt?  Would it be any different to using just plain ol' coconut cream?


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## Arimara (Aug 25, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Speaking of yoghurt...
> Has anyone ever used coconut yoghurt?  Would it be any different to using just plain ol' coconut cream?


I haven't used coconut yogurt (it's bad enough I have coconut milk but I was supposed to try my hand at coco bread) but I would assume it would feel different. There's only one way to find out...


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## Basil (Aug 25, 2021)

kagey said:


> Anyone ever try or have any success using Kefir milk?
> Or yogurt? (if so, what kind of yogurt do you think works best?)
> Thanks


I haven’t tried kefir yet but I want to. I have 4 jars in my fridge as I make it myself. I’m wondering how it’ll do. The kefir grains feed off the lactose in the goat milk, which is what causes them to grow. Since the kefir has less sugar in it, makes me wonder what kind of soap it makes


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## earlene (Aug 25, 2021)

SoapLover1 said:


> Hi! Just want to chime in that Oat & Almond Milk is not milk. Milk comes from Mammary Glands (Breasts) so only animals produce It.



That may be, however, they can and are still called 'milk' which is IMO a legitimate usage of the word.  As a reference about the use of the word 'Milk' to describe plant-based products goes back a good 600 years.

See these two articles related to usage for drinks made from animals milk and/or from plant 'milks':
FDA Crackdown On Calling Almond Milk 'Milk' Could Violate The First Amendment (forbes.com) 




__





						The FDA is confused about the definition of 'milk,' so we talked to a dictionary expert
					

"Almond milk" dates back to the 1400s, says lexicographer Kory Stamper.




					grist.org
				






kagey said:


> Or yogurt? (if so, what kind of yogurt do you think works best?)



When I use yogurt in soap, I generally use plain yogurt.  I doubt there is a lot of coconut in coconut yogurt, but I don't know for sure since I don't buy it myself.

What I have noticed when I buy yogurt though is that the nutrient labels often differ greatly from one brand to another (sugar content, etc.)  The kind I prefer to eat is Icelandic yogurt (by far the best tasting yogurt I have ever eaten), but it rarely survives long enough to end up in soap.  If I want yogurt for soap, I have to buy a cheap brand, so I won't eat it; that's the only way it will ever end up in soap.


Another observation:

Of the plant-based 'milks' the nutrient content varies greatly from one brand to the next, as well.  For example, I stopped buying soy milk long ago when the only ones available in the stores where I lived at the time had too much added sugar.  I am not a fan of sugar and hate sweet drinks, so when my soy milk started tasting sweet, that was it for me. So when it comes to adding any plant-based 'milk' to soap, it's usually something I made myself and the nutrient content will absolutely not be the same as listed on the store-bought brands.  The only exception is Coconut Milk, because I have no desire to make that myself.  Maybe if I lived where coconuts grow prolifically, I might, but I don't.


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## kagey (Aug 25, 2021)

earlene said:


> When I use yogurt in soap, I generally use plain yogurt. I doubt there is a lot of coconut in coconut yogurt, but I don't know for sure since I don't buy it myself.
> 
> What I have noticed when I buy yogurt though is that the nutrient labels often differ greatly from one brand to another (sugar content, etc.) The kind I prefer to eat is Icelandic yogurt (by far the best tasting yogurt I have ever eaten), but it rarely survives long enough to end up in soap. If I want yogurt for soap, I have to buy a cheap brand, so I won't eat it; that's the only way it will ever end up in soap.



thanks @earlene - your thoughts are helpful.
since I don't consume yogurt, I don't know much about it.
But I have heard that there are variety of types out there: Greek yogurt, Icelandic, French, goat's, sheep, etc. -- so it seems confusing. But if like the types of milk -- I guess it becomes more of a "try it and see for yourself" kind of thing. 
But I probably shouldn't use the blueberry or strawberry ones!


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## AliOop (Aug 26, 2021)

I've both purchased and made my own coconut milk yogurt. 

My version is made with coconut cream, probiotics, gelatin, and some form of sugar (I prefer maple syrup or agave syrup). 

The store-bought versions have very similar ingredient lists, usually with the addition of a stabilizing gum (guar, xanthan) and sometimes a preservative. 

Both versions work perfectly well in soap. I couldn't tell any difference between them and the cow-milk yogurts.


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## Cat&Oak (Aug 26, 2021)

Milks 100% make a difference in how the lather feels IMHO. Out of all of them There is something about coconut milk that really adds something special I find hard to describe.


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## earlene (Aug 26, 2021)

Arimara said:


> I haven't used coconut yogurt (it's bad enough I have coconut milk but I was supposed to try my hand at coco bread) but I would assume it would feel different. There's only one way to find out...





earlene said:


> I doubt there is a lot of coconut in coconut yogurt, but I don't know for sure since I don't buy it myself.



I decided to compare labels because my husband chose some coconut yogurt (Skyr brand), so I compared it to my plain yogurt (Siggi brand, which I will eat - it won't be going into soap).  Remember nutritional values vary depending on choices of yogurt (low fat, fat-free, etc.)  but here is what I found comparing these two:

Both are the same size (150 grams)  Both use the full container as a serving size, so the nutritional numbers are for the entire container (s), which is (are) over 5 ounces of yogurt (150 grams).
The *plain Siggi yogurt* has no fat (no saturated, no unsaturated & no trans fat.
The *coconut Skyr yogurt* has 3 grams of saturated, 1 gram of unsaturated & 0 trans fat.
The *plain Siggi yogurt* has 4 grams total of sugars with no ADDED sugars.
The *coconut Skyr yogurt* has 10 grams total sugars with 7 of those grams as ADDED sugars.

The way I add yogurt to soap is certainly not to add an entire container, but more along the lines of a Tablespoon or two at the most, so there would be NO APPRECIABLE superfat gain if I used the Skyr coconut yogurt.

Others may choose to add a lot more yogurt and may have different results depending on the source of the Coconut yogurt they were to use and it's particular fat content.  But unless you make your own yogurt using high fat coconut milk, and use a lot of it, I really do think it is unlikely to make a noticeable difference to the Super Fat. 

I listed the sugar content because that is another factor that would affect the soap.



kagey said:


> But I probably shouldn't use the blueberry or strawberry ones!



I don't see why not, unless they have bits of seeds.  I prefer my flavored yogurt to be seedless and without bits of stuff that will stick in my teeth.  But I have used blueberry yogurt in soap in the past when that's all I had on hand (no seeds) and it didn't make a noticeable difference from plain yogurt.  But like I said, I don't use a whole lot of it when I do use it in soap.


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## amd (Aug 26, 2021)

earlene said:


> But I have used blueberry yogurt in soap in the past when that's all I had on hand (no seeds) and it didn't make a noticeable difference from plain yogurt.


Oh good, I'm not the only one! I might have used a couple gogurts the kids weren't eating last time I made a personal batch of yogurt soap...


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