# liquid soap help!!



## awi (Jan 9, 2010)

Well, I just tried my first batch of cp  liquid soap, so I have no idea if it was successful or not. I didn't realize it took so long to trace....ugh! Anyway, after it traced, I poured it into a container and sat it into my oven which was only very slightly warm (used earlier, but not on). I was told it was best to place the container in a warm area or on a heating pad especially if the weather is cold. It is cold here now, so I placed it into the oven which I thought would help. Anyway, I just looked at it and the mixture is fairly translucent with a yellowish color, but there is a small layer of liquid on top and the layer below is a very firm gel consistency.  Hard to stir but doable with a spatula.  It resembles jello that is somewhat rubbery. Is this normal?  If not, can it be saved?


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## mirasolfarm (Jan 9, 2010)

Hi - It sounds to me like you've done a fine job - that gelatinous stuff is what you will dilute to make liquid soap... Ours always has a consistency like that until it's diluted properly. If your recipe doesn't come with dilution recommendations, add distilled water in VERY small increments until it's the consistency that you'd like. (It's harder to thicken than to thin.)


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## knicelyr (Jan 9, 2010)

Liquid soap prior to dilution is a paste.  You dilute this paste to get the thickness you want.

Most liquids are around 40% - 60% water, and then thickened with a sodium salt.  Liquids that are less than 40% water tend to congeal over time and can clog pumps.

Catherine Failor's book "Making Liquid Soaps" is a wonderful reference.

When working out your dilution ratio make sure you include the water you used for saponification as part of the 40% - 60%.  The more coconut oil you have used the less water you will need to avoid the soap congealing.

I have used what I call a "pre-diluted" method which works well.  You saponify the soap with all the water cooking it until neutral. 2 hours or so.  If you do it this way trace is really hard to see, but if you are hot processing that really does not matter... Just keep the heat around 170*F. Technically you should weigh the pot before and after to add back any water that may have evaporated over the cook time.

Like mirasolfarm said this is normal.


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## awi (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks for the information!  I guess I am just nervous since this is my first batch.  I cant wait to try it as shower gel!  Below is what I did and see if anyone thinks I should do anything different.

1 oz avacado oil
4 oz coconut oil
7 oz. olive oil
4 oz sweet almond oil
3.21 oz lye (KOH)


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## madpiano (Jan 10, 2010)

ok, I am struggling with my Liquid soap and I could do with some help. 

I made the soap paste a while ago and it was just sitting around. I decided to finally bite the bullet and get round to making soap from it. I tried to dissolve the paste in the same amount of water (by weight) as the paste, but not much luck. So I added lots of water, it dissolved fine and then I boiled the excess water off, until soap started settling out. This gave me an approximate 40% solution, I think, but thats eyeballing it as there is no way I can weigh a hot pan on my plastic covered scales. Anyway, I could not evaporate any more water anyway, soap started to settle out (form a skin, settle on the bottom and sides etc), so I coloured and fragranced it and it is now sequestering, but it is very very runny. I hate runny soap. 

How do I thicken it ? I am not allowed to use Borax (my safety assessor says "no"), which would be my first choice, so what can I use instead ?

I have the book, but I don't really like it, it makes the simple part of the soap making (the paste) look really complicated, assumes everyone has a heat resistant scale and is generally too US based for me (availability of certain things and allowability of additives). It also is absolutley obsessed by having clear soap. I really couldn't care less if my soap is clear or not. I'd rather superfat than having to neutralize excess KOH with an acid which may or may not work (that phenol-something she recommends is not THAT accurate).


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## knicelyr (Jan 10, 2010)

Mad,
You can use almost any sodium salt to thicken your soap. Borax is sodium borate.

In fact I have found that you can use bar soaps, which are sodium salts, to thicken you liquid.

I started to experiment with using sodium bar soaps to thicken my liquids after I had a nice gel soap made from NaOH Biodiesel Glycerin (BDG) reacted with KOH.  This is very similar to adding sodium bar soap to your diluted liquid soap.

You can also use gums Xanthem gum and Guar gum are two that are commonly used.  I believe Vermont soap organics uses gums to thicken their liquids.

http://www.vermontsoap.com/


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## madpiano (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the tips. I have heard some people are using a saturated saline solution to thicken their soap, but it doesn't seem to be stable long term (it starts forming a solid glop in the middle while the surrounding soap is getting thinner again), so might be looking into the gums. I am close to a chinese-food wholesale place, they do some of the gums there, will have a play and report back. 

The bar soap thing is recommended in the book for shower gel and bubble bath ? Is there a reason why someone wouldn't just make soap with a mix of NaOH and KOH (like whipped cream soap) to start with ? Would that make thicker soap ?


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## knicelyr (Jan 11, 2010)

Yes you can make a soap with both NaOH and KOH right up front. Catherine Failor's booklet "making cream soaps" does that, although she does not talk about liquids in that booklet.

In essence that is exactly what I am doing when I make Liquid soap from NaOH BDG.  Part of the BDG is already sodium soaps. The rest I saponify with KOH. It work wonderfully!

I will try to work what I am doing backwards and come up with an out of the box recipe to do this.

The reason your soap is going solid with the saline solution is either that you are not diluted enough or you use too much saline solution.  You need much much less saturated saline solution than say a borax solution. And sometimes it takes a small amount of time to get the full thickening effect.  I would try about 1/2 of the saline solution you are used to and let it go overnight and see what happens.

Once you nail down your ratio for your soap you will know how much you need. I just think, based on what I've seen in my soaps, that you are using too much saline solution.

Does your soap remain liquid without the saline solution?

I always do what I call a "freezer test" on my liquids. Once I have them where I want I put them in the freezer for a few hours. I then take them out and let them thaw.  If the soap is still "good" after that I know that the soap is stable.


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## vsavor (Jan 11, 2010)

madpiano said:
			
		

> How do I thicken it ? I am not allowed to use Borax (my safety assessor says "no"), which would be my first choice, so what can I use instead ?
> .



I am new to soap making as well as this forum and this is my first post. 
Why should we not use Borax? Is there a problem with toxins?

Verna


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## madpiano (Jan 11, 2010)

Verna, Borax is regulated in the UK - it can still be used, but there are so many restrictions that my Safety Assessor just says "no". It's just easier for him and me..For the same reason I am not allowed to use Rose EO. Nothing wrong with it (if I could even afford it), but it is classified as an extreme sensitizer which is not only dangerous for my customers, but also for me while handling it. 

Weirdly enough, Lush uses it in Lipbalms, which is quite a shocker, considering the heavy restrictions on it.


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## donniej (Jan 11, 2010)

I use borax... but I've read you can use glycerin.


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## knicelyr (Jan 13, 2010)

Regular table salt (sodium chloride) works well too.


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## Alexandra (Feb 2, 2010)

I make my liquid soap/shampoo .... using ONLY NaOH for saponification, and the same way I make my solid bars.

In fact, I first started making liquid shampoos for personal use, so at that time it was too complicated for me to buy smaal amounts of KOH.

The process is absolutely the same with HP owen soap (or any HO method), with few diferencies on the end:

- you add 50% spring water and leave it in the oven for additional 10 minutes
- you let it cold... it will become jelly... so everything you have to do is to mix it again with your mixer
- you can add the additives as aloe vera gel, coconut milk, EOs, FOs etc. either right after cooking or while you mix the cold soap.

There is no more thickening of soap, no separation of water... and your shampoo is ready. 

The quality and properties of your liquid soap depends only of oils/fats you are using.


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## madpiano (Feb 2, 2010)

Alexandra said:
			
		

> I make my liquid soap/shampoo .... using ONLY NaOH for saponification, and the same way I make my solid bars.
> 
> In fact, I first started making liquid shampoos for personal use, so at that time it was too complicated for me to buy smaal amounts of KOH.
> 
> ...



wow, that sounds interesting...could you do a step-by-step of this method ? It might be the answer to my prayers, as I really do not like KOH soap...


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## carebear (Feb 2, 2010)

interesting.   my NaOH soap turns to slime over the course of a couple of days no matter how much I dilute it.


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## donniej (Feb 2, 2010)

Me too.  No matter what oil, no matter how much water.... it always ends up as "egg noodle soup" after a couple days.  KOH soaps will do similar with too much sodium.  

I've often wondered about using KOH and a little NaOH to make a thicker liquid soap but I doubt I'd be able to stir the kettle without some body-building


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## Alexandra (Feb 16, 2010)

madpiano said:
			
		

> wow, that sounds interesting...could you do a step-by-step of this method ? It might be the answer to my prayers, as I really do not like KOH soap...



There is no special step-by step instructions. You just let your soap +water  to cool and, sure, it will make kind of jelly. When cold, mix it with SB. Than alow to cool again... than mix again. It is true that it is never quite liquid but is great and much better than KOH soaps.

When I add extra oils, aloe gel etc. it make the soap more liquid.


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## shonnyisley (Feb 26, 2010)

Alexandra said:
			
		

> I make my liquid soap/shampoo .... using ONLY NaOH for saponification, and the same way I make my solid bars.
> 
> In fact, I first started making liquid shampoos for personal use, so at that time it was too complicated for me to buy smaal amounts of KOH.
> 
> ...



Hello Alexandra. This is just great. So how long have you kept a batch around the house? Does it stay homegenous? Does it freeze up in a pump bottle? Also do you super fat your soap? Do you use butters? And  does it come out milky or translucent? Thank you!


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## IanT (Feb 26, 2010)

donniej said:
			
		

> Me too.  No matter what oil, no matter how much water.... it always ends up as "egg noodle soup" after a couple days.  KOH soaps will do similar with too much sodium.
> 
> I've often wondered about using KOH and a little NaOH to make a thicker liquid soap but I doubt I'd be able to stir the kettle without some body-building



lol like you couldnt engineer a neumatic actuator stirring mechanism or a robot or something that stirred it for you lol... 

This is an AWESOME thread!! I have yet to delve into liquid soaps but I am going to as soon as I get some funds for more supplies!! sounds exciting!


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## carebear (Mar 1, 2010)

shonnyisley said:
			
		

> Alexandra said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



mine still, after several dilutions, ends up as jello slime


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## Alexandra (Apr 8, 2010)

I am sorry if I have confused you all, but please be aware that I am not speaking about liquid shampoo as a product for customers. I explained how I make liquid shampoo for my personal use, and for my familly.

I just do not like KOH in my soaps. 

I noticed that some ingredients helps soap stay more liquid - as coconut milk, soya milk, aloe vera gel...  Also, the best "liquid" NaOH soap I made contains olive oil only, with 10% coconut oil + castor oil at the end. The NaOH soaps which contains lard or tallow or palm oil always tend to get slimy.


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## xceralan (Feb 2, 2020)

How can I make my liquid soap more thicker and concentrated. I have done it but it’s still dilute


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