# How to use vinegar to harden your soap



## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

When you use vinegar to replace some or all of your water, the acetic acid in the vinegar reacts with sodium hydroxide to form sodium acetate. Sodium acetate works like sodium lactate to harden your soap, except all you have to buy is vinegar.

I promised simpler instructions for folks who don't want to get so exacting with the math. I have done this technique with white vinegar, but the instructions will work with any vinegar that contains 5% acetic acid.

First decide how much sodium acetate you want in the soap. Try maybe 1 or 2% of the oil amount for your first time out. Lets say 2% for the example.

Multiply your oil amount by the percentage you chose:
*2% of 500 g oil is 500 x .02 = 10 g sodium acetate (SA) desired*

Multiply the SA amount by 14.6 for the amount of water to replace with vinegar:
*10 * 14.6 = 146 g vinegar*

Multiply the SA amount by .49 for the amount of extra NaOH to add to what your lye calculator told you:
*10 x .49 = 4.9 g extra NaOH*

That's all there is to it.

If you happen to want to replace ALL your water with vinegar, multiply your liquid amount by .0333 to get the amount of extra NaOH to add.

The more exacting explanation of the math, for those who want it, is here:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57991


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## cmzaha (Apr 2, 2016)

Thankyou TOMH, it makes if much simpler


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## dillsandwitch (Apr 2, 2016)

**** and I just bought a 5L bottle of sodium lactate too  I will keep this in mind when that bottle runs out in a year or three. hahaha


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## TeresaT (Apr 2, 2016)

TOHM, as we know, I suck at math, but here are my observations.  I was playing with the numbers to figure out if I wanted to add the extra lye to compensate for the vinegar and keep my super fat at my normal 8% or if I wanted to recalculate the recipe with a lower SF of 1 or 2% and not use the extra lye.  In all of my calculations, the difference was negligible.  I don't have my notes with me, (I suck at organization, too) but I have a piece of paper with a note that has "0% SF  at 100%=(+/-)6.55 SF, 75%= (+/-) 7.5 SF, 50% = (+/-) 7 SF, 25%= (+/-) 4% SF."  This is my shorthand for zero SF replacing water by X% yields a SF of Y (give or take a few .01s).  So, I guess my point is, doing a low SF and not compensating the extra lye does yield a safe (not lye heavy and in some cases, well SFd) product.  I probably wouldn't do this with a 100 pound batch because there's a much higher probability of error in that amount of volume.  However, once I perfected my recipes and techniques on a small scale, adapting them to a large scale operation "shouldn't" be difficult.  The key is making sure my scales are accurate, calibrated and I double (even triple) check my weights before lye meets oils.  So says the woman commonly known as "Sux at Math."   

So, all you sciency peeps:  Tell me why my logic (as well as math) sux and why I should not do it this way.  Go ahead.  Don't hold back.  I can take it.  I've got my "big girl panties" on.  

(Now, to figure out a way out of the EDTA math...)


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## apples (Apr 2, 2016)

great info, gotta pin this somewhere! i too, suck at organisation...


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> So, all you sciency peeps:  Tell me why my logic (as well as math) sux and why I should not do it this way.  Go ahead.  Don't hold back.  I can take it.  I've got my "big girl panties" on.



You could do it that way. As long as you keep the same lye concentration, you will always get the same lye discount when you replace a given percentage of water with vinegar.

If you make pure coconut oil soap with no lye discount to wash your big girl panties with, and you use a 33% lye concentration, you'll discover with the help of Soapcalc and a little arithmetic that you effectively get a 7.2% lye discount.

Make a pure castile soap while your panties are going around in the wash and the NaOH and water amounts will be very different because of the SAP value. However, as long as you use the same 33% lye concentration and replace all the water, your effective lye discount will end up being 7.2%

So if you plugged in no superfat and replaced all the water with vinegar, or even half of it, you'd be fine. If you use a different lye concentration, we have to figure out what the numbers are. It sounds like you already did, but not all your numbers could be right because, for instance, replacing half the water should result in half the lye discount. In the case of the 33% lye concentration, it comes out like this:

100% vinegar = (1 x 7.2) = 7.2% discount (as above)
75% vinegar = (.75 x 7.2) = 5.4% discount
50% vinegar = (.5 x 7.2) = 3.6% discount (half)
25% vinegar - (.25 x 7.2) = 1.8% discount

I prefer "lye discount" over "superfat", but we're both talking about the same thing.


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## apples (Apr 2, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Multiply your oil amount by the percentage you chose:
> 2% of 500 g oil is 500 x .02 = 10
> 
> Multiply the result by 14.6 for the amount of vinegar to use in place of water:
> ...


Sorry, i'm lost at step 3, multiply the result by .49? *10*.49* or *146*.49*? I'm determined to get organised so in the midst of jotting this down in my excel file


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

apples said:


> Sorry, i'm lost at step 3, multiply the result by .49? *10*.49* or *146*.49*? I'm determined to get organised so in the midst of jotting this down in my excel file



I went back and hopefully made it more clear.


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## snappyllama (Apr 2, 2016)

Interesting post... I probably missed this discussed in another post (sorry if so), but I'm curious....

How does using sodium acetate compare to using sodium lactate? Other than cost and convenience, what are the alphas/deltas to using one over the other?

I don't sell, but like to think of all possible aspects and can see the sodium acetate being a clear loser in label appeal - depending on market. I suppose "vinegar" could be listed instead - that sounds even better than "sodium lactate" though. So maybe that point is a wash. 

Perhaps this is outside the scope of this post, but I use SL in some B&B formulations as an alternative humectant to glycerin. Now, I'm a pretty big noobie when it comes to B&B, but I'm wondering about the ingredient in that arena.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

snappyllama said:


> Interesting post... I probably missed this discussed in another post (sorry if so), but I'm curious....



Speaking of missing things, here are some past threads for your reference or for anyone else who needs them, plus a link to the 100 year old patent for hardening soap with sodium acetate or sodium lactate.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57991
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59148
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59092
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=p.../US1377843.pdf



snappyllama said:


> How does using sodium acetate compare to using sodium lactate? Other than cost and convenience, what are the alphas/deltas to using one over the other?



Beyond cost and convenience, there's no significant difference between the two additives in the application that I tested them in. In terms of shortening and hardening soap, as well as increasing lather, the results are nearly identical and the additives are interchangeable. SA is an alternative for people who have wanted to use SL for this purpose in bar soap but can't easily buy it where they live.

If I can address cost and convenience for a moment, the biggest difference here is that you use only a 5% acetic acid solution to make sodium acetate, and the high usage rate for vinegar makes it a water replacement. People often would prefer to use a water replacement of their own. The fact that sodium lactate is typically purchased as a 60% solution allows for a more flexible and convenient usage rate.



snappyllama said:


> I don't sell, but like to think of all possible aspects and can see the sodium acetate being a clear loser in label appeal - depending on market. I suppose "vinegar" could be listed instead - that sounds even better than "sodium lactate" though. So maybe that point is a wash.



The way I look at it, sodium acetate and sodium lactate are equivalent in label impact. Depending on whether it's a problem, you would use either or neither of them. If people ask, they are both edible organic salts. You can use sodium acetate to make salt and vinegar potato chips.

As you point out, sodium acetate may have an advantage for people who list what goes into the pot as ingredients rather than what comes out. I don't suppose anyone will freak over vinegar, because obviously it's not made of chemicals. ;-)



snappyllama said:


> Perhaps this is outside the scope of this post, but I use SL in some B&B formulations as an alternative humectant to glycerin. Now, I'm a pretty big noobie when it comes to B&B, but I'm wondering about the ingredient in that arena.



I don't know for sure, but it's an interesting question. I do know that sodium lactate, potassium lactate and sodium acetate are sometimes used in the same applications, one of which would be packing and preserving meat. I believe that humectant properties are desirable in that application.

You have used sodium lactate as a humectant. I have used potassium lactate as a humectant in liquid soap with very good results. It would not surprise me if a sodium acetate solution had similar qualities, but I think it isn't soluble enough to make as concentrated a solution as 60% SL.


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## Steve85569 (Apr 2, 2016)

Thank you for this post. 

I am going to try a water replacement with a recipe I have been contemplating. It has a low cleansing number which means it won't strip the natural oils as much BUT is too soft for my liking. I ran a similar recipe last week and it took 3 days to get it set enough to unmold.
Jan has willingly let me have a half gallon of 5% vinegar she had stashed.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

Steve85569 said:


> Thank you for this post.
> 
> I am going to try a water replacement with a recipe I have been contemplating. It has a low cleansing number which means it won't strip the natural oils as much BUT is too soft for my liking. I ran a similar recipe last week and it took 3 days to get it set enough to unmold.
> Jan has willingly let me have a half gallon of 5% vinegar she had stashed.



Sounds good. That's the classic application in soaping history -- making hard soap out of soft oils.


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## TeresaT (Apr 2, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> You could do it that way. As long as you keep the same lye concentration, you will always get the same lye discount when you replace a given percentage of water with vinegar.
> 
> If you make pure coconut oil soap with no lye discount to wash your big girl panties with, and you use a 33% lye concentration, you'll discover with the help of Soapcalc and a little arithmetic that you effectively get a 7.2% lye discount.
> 
> ...




You make me laugh.  I thought my numbers looked odd.  But, that was what I had written and I am certainly no math wiz.  I was sitting at the table late one night bleary eyed plugging in various lye discounts for 1 pound of 100% OO and comparing the NaOH amounts needed for each one.  Which is how I came up with the "safe soap" determination.  No math true skills or scientific knowledge required.  Just lots of coffee and the ability to do screenshots and write stuff down.  However, even after cleaning off my dining room table this afternoon and sorting the junk that has been piled on it into "dogs," "soap," "knitting," and bills" I cannot find my ciphering (as a buddy calls anything higher than 1+1). 

After all of that "figuring stuff out" I still have not made my trial OO soaps with the different percentages of ACV - which I went and bought specifically to do.  I also want to try the experiment with nothing, with 2% salt and 2% SL as the hardeners to compare how long it takes to get them out of the mold, the hardness factor over the cure and what the cure times are.  

My issue is I don't have a micro scale and have to make larger batches than I wanted to, four ounce batches instead of one ounce batches.  When I'm making one or two pounds, I don't care if I round up or down.  However, when I'm doing something so small, I thought it would be better to have as close to 0.567 gms of salt as possible.  Using 1 gm would totally screw up the values.  But I really don't want to make seven 4 oz batches of soap. I'm lazy.    I probably could do the non salt/SL batches very small and just do those bigger.  This isn't real science.  This is just curiosity and trying to improve my product with the least amount of additional "chemicals" possible.      Please forgive my babbling...

ETA:  by the way, since I actually DO soap at 33.333%, I'm going to remember that 7.2 discount will be the "standard" discount I get when I soap with 100% vinegar and 0% SF on the SoapCalc dial.  That will help me a lot when I'm deciding whether to do it at 0 or something else on the SoapCalc.  Since I suck at math and am way too chicken, I wouldn't try this with any other concentration of lye.  I didn't get to be 50 by doing stupid crap.  (relatively speaking.)


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## cmzaha (Apr 2, 2016)

Can I make this into my 50/50 lye masterbatch, using full vinegar and multiplying by .49 for the extra lye needed? Then using it as I do my regular 50/50 with the added in extra liquid? Sorry if this is a dumb question but the brain is not cooperating today.  But then that is normal for me lately...


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## TeresaT (Apr 2, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> Can I make this into my 50/50 lye masterbatch, using full vinegar and multiplying by .49 for the extra lye needed? Then using it as I do my regular 50/50 with the added in extra liquid? Sorry if this is a dumb question but the brain is not cooperating today.  But then that is normal for me lately...



That's actually a really good question.  I master batch my lye, too (2:1) and would benefit greatly if I could do it with vinegar instead of water.  Come to think of it, it would be cool to master batch with beer, too.  But I don't think that's possible.  I think the beer would mold.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> My issue is I don't have a micro scale and have to make larger batches than I wanted to, four ounce batches instead of one ounce batches.  When I'm making one or two pounds, I don't care if I round up or down.  However, when I'm doing something so small, I thought it would be better to have as close to 0.567 gms of salt as possible.  Using 1 gm would totally screw up the values.  But I really don't want to make seven 4 oz batches of soap.



Wow those are some small test batches, especially when you're testing additives that would be used in small amounts. I can be pretty badass sometimes, but I normally make testers with 8 oz oils. And I have this:


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## Swampy (Apr 2, 2016)

So what is the difference in using salt instead of Sodium acetate or sodium lactate for making a harder bar of soap?


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> Can I make this into my 50/50 lye masterbatch, using full vinegar and multiplying by .49 for the extra lye needed? Then using it as I do my regular 50/50 with the added in extra liquid? Sorry if this is a dumb question but the brain is not cooperating today.  But then that is normal for me lately...



I wouldn't go masterbatching until we have more experience with this technique. At least you should make some small solutions and sit them on a shelf for a while to see what happens. But yes I would think you could do it if you're willing to do some more figuring and experimentation. Vinegar is only 95% water plus the H2O produced in the chemical reaction. You'd have to account for this when considering a 50% concentration. We also don't know how the sodium acetate affects how much NaOH it will be possible to dissolve.

Another issue with larger scale production is that we don't know much about nature of the water used to make vinegar. Might be a good idea to use EDTA until we can find out if the water is distilled or just purified tap water or whatever.


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## TeresaT (Apr 2, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Wow those are some small test batches, especially when you're testing additives that would be used in small amounts. I can be pretty badass sometimes, but I normally make testers with 8 oz oils. And I have this:



That is beautiful!  What's the maximum weight it holds?   What kind?  Where'd you get it?  I was looking at some yesterday (or Thursday) and they're a couple hundred dollars up to thousands.   So far my problem with test batches is they've all been for recipes and I've done 2 lbs testers.  I don't have small mold, although I just got two 1# and two 11 oz "guest" molds from Crafter's Choice yesterday.  I do have bar molds, but I just thought about them now as I was going through the stuff in my mind.  I always use my loaf molds for some reason...


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

Swampy said:


> So what is the difference in using salt instead of Sodium acetate or sodium lactate for making a harder bar of soap?



Someone was interested in doing the experiment and telling us what the difference is between various hardening additives. I don't use salt so I don't know the answer to your question. I only know that lactate and acetate produce very similar results.


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## TeresaT (Apr 2, 2016)

Swampy said:


> So what is the difference in using salt instead of Sodium acetate or sodium lactate for making a harder bar of soap?



Two things.  Mainly curiosity.  I've been reading about salt bars (and have made some) and I know that salt bars are like bricks.  You are better off making individual bars instead of a loaf because cutting the loaf can be a bear if you don't get it at that perfect moment.  It will crumble and fall apart.    But the second thing is label appeal.  If I can get a hard bar that unmolds easily without using a "chemical" or  listing sodium acetate or sodium lactate on the labels, people won't question "salt" as much as the others.  

However, if the vinegar, does as good or better a job at hardening/unmolding/producing what I (personally) consider to be my "ideal" bar, then I'll just use vinegar.  That will have a great label appeal because so many people associate Apple Cider Vinegar with good health and curative purposes.  It's just a guessing game for me right now.  

I've decided to use 100% olive oil and my standard 33.333% lye solution.  I'll use no additives as a control, 2% salt, 2% sodium lactate, 100% vinegar as water replacement, 75% vinegar, 50% vinegar and finally 25% vinegar.  

So basically, I have to get cracking and make seven batches of olive oil soap then take careful notes and chart all of their characteristics including hardness and unmoldability without appropriate scientific instruments and no science background.   Easy!

I'm sitting here typing this laughing my butt off at the absurdity of that statement.  But it's true.  This is going to be so much fun.  Well, I've got to get off my butt and get the soap stuff out.  TOMH - I'm going to do 8 oz batches and use the individual molds that I have.  I'll add a colorant to each type so I don't get them confused.  I've got micas and oxides.  I hope that doesn't mess up the results.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 2, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> I've decided to use 100% olive oil and my standard 33.333% lye solution.  I'll use no additives as a control, 2% salt, 2% sodium lactate, 100% vinegar as water replacement, 75% vinegar, 50% vinegar and finally 25% vinegar.



Sounds exciting. If you want penetrometer readings, send over a chunk of each.


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## TeresaT (Apr 2, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Sounds exciting. If you want penetrometer readings, send over a chunk of each.



I will do that.  Thanks!


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## snappyllama (Apr 2, 2016)

Thanks again for this thread and taking the time to answer my questions (as well as other folks with illuminating questions of their own)... It's definitely something I'll consider when my vat of SL starts looking low. I


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## biarine (Apr 2, 2016)

Wow interesting I never good in math


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## cmzaha (Apr 2, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I wouldn't go masterbatching until we have more experience with this technique. At least you should make some small solutions and sit them on a shelf for a while to see what happens. But yes I would think you could do it if you're willing to do some more figuring and experimentation. Vinegar is only 95% water plus the H2O produced in the chemical reaction. You'd have to account for this when considering a 50% concentration. We also don't know how the sodium acetate affects how much NaOH it will be possible to dissolve.
> 
> Another issue with larger scale production is that we don't know much about nature of the water used to make vinegar. Might be a good idea to use EDTA until we can find out if the water is distilled or just purified tap water or whatever.


All good points. I did think of the 95% water factor. Just might make up a small master batch and let it sit. Let me know if I am off kilter here. I was going to add in the 5% water difference with distilled to bring up the full 50% water, then add in the extra lye. I was also considering if the NaOH would completely dissolve. Will try a little later and see what happens. Instead of EDTA is use the Citric Acid method only because I always have a lot of citric acid around. I also make it up into a 50/50 solution.

 Since I am making veggie soaps tonight I just made up my lye using your instructions targeting 2%. LOL, will probably come out like a rock since I have 40% palm. Thinking I better watch cutting time


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## cmzaha (Apr 3, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Two things.  Mainly curiosity.  I've been reading about salt bars (and have made some) and I know that salt bars are like bricks.  You are better off making individual bars instead of a loaf because cutting the loaf can be a bear if you don't get it at that perfect moment.  It will crumble and fall apart.    But the second thing is label appeal.  If I can get a hard bar that unmolds easily without using a "chemical" or  listing sodium acetate or sodium lactate on the labels, people won't question "salt" as much as the others.
> 
> However, if the vinegar, does as good or better a job at hardening/unmolding/producing what I (personally) consider to be my "ideal" bar, then I'll just use vinegar.  That will have a great label appeal because so many people associate Apple Cider Vinegar with good health and curative purposes.  It's just a guessing game for me right now.
> 
> ...


Can't wait to hear the results. Will be interesting to see if it makes any difference with the slime/snot/gel of castile after a nice long cure


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## ngian (Apr 3, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Multiply your oil amount by the percentage you chose:
> *2% of 500 g oil is 500 x .02 = 10 g sodium acetate (SA) desired*
> 
> Multiply the SA amount by 14.6 for the amount of water to replace with vinegar:
> ...



Thank you very much TOMH for your simplified version and I wanted to ask you if you can tell me what would be the numbers for vinegar with 6% acetic acid as this is the % we have in vinegars in the Greek market. 
If you can tell me your first name also I could credit you for this procedure in a Greek fb group. 

Thank you in advance
Nikos


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## penelopejane (Apr 3, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> Can't wait to hear the results. Will be interesting to see if it makes any difference with the slime/snot/gel of castile after a nice long cure




If it reacts the same way as salt it will. I make 100% OO soap with 25-50% salt and they are lovely - hard and white, no snot. Mine weep for a fair while. Their weeping slows a lot but my last one (haven't got my notes with me so mad 6 months old) is still slightly damp - so slowly weeping.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 3, 2016)

ngian said:


> Thank you very much TOMH for your simplified version and I wanted to ask you if you can tell me what would be the numbers for vinegar with 6% acetic acid as this is the % we have in vinegars in the Greek market.
> If you can tell me your first name also I could credit you for this procedure in a Greek fb group.
> 
> Thank you in advance
> Nikos



For 6% vinegar you can multiply by 12.2 (or 12.17) instead of 14.6.


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## TeresaT (Apr 3, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> When you use vinegar to replace some or all of your water, the acetic acid in the vinegar reacts with sodium hydroxide to form sodium acetate. Sodium acetate works like sodium lactate to harden your soap, except all you have to buy is vinegar.
> 
> I promised simpler instructions for folks who don't want to get so exacting with the math. I have done this technique with white vinegar, but the instructions will work with any vinegar that contains 5% acetic acid.
> 
> ...



I have just discovered this does not work if you use a 33.333% lye solution.    

My weights in grams are:
Water:      260.69
NaOH:     130.34
Oils:       1000.00

So, the 2% SA would be 20 gms (1000 * .02).  I would need 292 gms vinegar (20 * 14.6) and 9.8 gms NaOH (20 * .49).  That would be 32 gm too much liquid.    

I originally started doing the math with my two pound batch recipe.  Which is only 907.18 grams of oils.  (Ya see where I'm going with this?)  I got these numbers:
Water:     244.20
NaOH:   122.10
Oils:        907.18

SA @ 2% = 18.14. Check.  Vinegar = 264.844. Chec WHAT?  How is that possible.  OK.  Wait, maybe the SA's not right.  .02 X 907 = 18.14.  OK, I got that again.  So I multiply 14.6 by 18.14 for vinegar?  Wait.  Let me round this up to 1000 grams.  That will make this right.  This can't be right. :evil:  Man, I _really_ suck at math. :sick:  OK.  So 1000 time 2% equals 20...

Yep.  After a few times I realized no matter how many times I sliced it, I didn't suck at math _that_ much.  When you use a 2:1 water:lye solution and you want to do a 2% sodium acetate solution, just ignore the formula and multiply your water amount by 0.0335 and be done with it.  Or ignore it completely and have a "mystery" SF.  

I am going to have some Jamoca Fudge Almond ice cream.  I have earned it.  My brain hurts.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 3, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Yep.  After a few times I realized no matter how many times I sliced it, I didn't suck at math _that_ much.  When you use a 2:1 water:lye solution and you want to do a 2% sodium acetate solution, just ignore the formula and multiply your water amount by 0.0335 and be done with it.  Or ignore it completely and have a "mystery" SF.



I hope that you enjoyed your ice cream and that the throbbing has subsided. No, your math doesn't suck. Let me tell you why on the one hand you are completely right, and on the other hand it works better with a 33% lye concentration than you suspect.

When you use a 33% like concentration, the amount of water you can replace ends up giving you more or less 2% SA. I plugged 30% CO, 40% PO and 30% OO into Soapcalc as an example, and the amount of vinegar for 2% SA was almost exactly the water amount. In your scenario, you didn't even have enough water to replace.

HOWEVER, this bring us to one of the ways that I simplified the instructions. When we talk about using some percentage of sodium LACTATE, we are talking about a 60% solution because that's the way it's usually sold. That means that 2% sodium lactate is actually 60% of 2 = 1.2% solid SL and the rest is water. The usual terminology is that it's 1.2% on a dry matter basis.

My original instructions took this into account but it confused people so I didn't include it above. The bottom line is that to make the amount comparable what people call 2% SL, you actually only need 1.2%, meaning 12 g SA rather than 20. That will fit comfortably into your water amount.

So here is some more guidance. If the recommendation for SL is to use 1% to 3% of 60% SL solution, the dry matter amount is actually 0.6% to 1.8%. If you want to use an equivalent amount of SA, those are the percentages you should calculate with.

The 2% you were calculating is equivalent to 3.33% SL solution. You don't need that much.


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## Steve85569 (Apr 3, 2016)

I did run a batch of soap today using the .0335 multiplier since I simply replaced all the water with vinegar. The soap calc'd out to a hardness of 30 with a cleansing value of 6 and conditioning at 65. Made the soap this morning and just finished cutting it. WOW!!! This unmolded three ( yes three) days faster than the last attempt at this without the vinegar. Sweet!!!

I know it never happened without pictures so I'll get some posted in the morning.

Next I'll try a soleseife'  with the vinegar before adding the lye. I'm thinking a light brine of 10% salt just to see if it will stay in solution during the reaction between the vinegar and lye.

Colors will be changed to protect the absent minded from confusing the batches. I'll also use a different FO.


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## TeresaT (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks, TOMH!  That makes sense.  (Of course, I had to read it a few times.  Slowly.)

Steve...awesome news!  This whole vinegar thing is like magic!  And since you mentioned salt...

You know those experiments I was doing Saturday with hardening agents and 8 oz of olive oil?  Yeah.  I unmolded everything Sunday.  The salt batch didn't fare well.  In fact, when I unmolded it, the loaf broke in half.  I waited a couple of hours and then sliced it.  It was still pretty soft; however, it was olive oil.  Olive oil takes forever to harden up, right?  I did a zap test and it didn't zap.  When I wiped the cutter off I decided to wash my hands with the soft soap to see if there was any kind of lather at all or just slime.  I have chemical burns on my hands.  Apparently, salt reduces the saponification rate of olive oil. By. A. LOT.  That was a majorly stupid thing to do; in the back of my mind, a tiny voice was saying, "This isn't a good idea."  (Even though it didn't zap.  I had never had smooshy soap before.)   I didn't feel the burn at first.  I was washing my hands for probably 15 or 20 seconds before I felt the burn.  Fortunately, the water was running and I didn't have it really hot, I was able to slam the "gear shift" to the right with my elbow and flood my hands with the cold water.  The interesting thing is that's a new faucet.  My old faucet was the twisty kind and I wouldn't have been able to switch to cold so quickly.  I've only had this faucet for about two weeks.  I have ugly old-lady hands to begin with, but this made them even worse.  They're feeling a lot better today and aren't so red, but they definitely are still raw looking.  I'll have to see if I can get a photo of today's lovely look.


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## ngian (Apr 4, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> It was still pretty soft; however, it was olive oil.  Olive oil takes forever to harden up, right?  I did a zap test and it didn't zap.  When I wiped the cutter off I decided to wash my hands with the soft soap to see if there was any kind of lather at all or just slime.  I have chemical burns on my hands.  Apparently, salt reduces the saponification rate of olive oil.



What was the lye concentration for the castile? How hot did you mix? Did it pass the gel phase? 

The above can affect the speed of saponification and the time at which you can cut the soap loaf without any problem.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 4, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> I was washing my hands for probably 15 or 20 seconds before I felt the burn.  Fortunately, the water was running and I didn't have it really hot, I was able to slam the "gear shift" to the right with my elbow and flood my hands with the cold water.  The interesting thing is that's a new faucet.  My old faucet was the twisty kind and I wouldn't have been able to switch to cold so quickly.  I've only had this faucet for about two weeks.  I have ugly old-lady hands to begin with, but this made them even worse.  They're feeling a lot better today and aren't so red, but they definitely are still raw looking.  I'll have to see if I can get a photo of today's lovely look.



Ouch.

At least it wasn't math that got you.


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## TeresaT (Apr 4, 2016)

ngian said:


> What was the lye concentration for the castile? How hot did you mix? Did it pass the gel phase?
> 
> The above can affect the speed of saponification and the time at which you can cut the soap loaf without any problem.



And this is why a non-scientist should not be testing stuff!   I don't take temps.  I soap at room temperature.  Lye concentration was 33.333% (I always soap at 2:1 concentration).  I added 2% salt to the water & fully dissolved it before I added the lye.  I let the lye cool down to "warm to the touch" temperature before I mixed it with the oil.  SBd until it was pudding and poured it into the mold.  This was the second batch I did, so it was in the mold by 10:15 Saturday night.  I didn't cover any of the molds with plastic (they're ashy), but once all of the tests were made, I put them in the cold oven.  That was around 12:30 AM Sunday morning and I unmolded 4:30 PM Sunday night.  I didn't cut & burn my hands until around 6:30 PM.  The interesting thing (to me, anyway) is this was the only one that was like that.  The control batch, which I did first around 9:40 PM, was fully saponified and rock solid when I unmolded it.  The salt was mush.   I would have thought the one with nothing in it would have been the softest after just 18 hrs in the mold.  I'll have to look at the notes from last night to get a better idea of what the soaps felt like.  The sodium lactate batch was actually softer than the control.  I don't know if that has to do with the fact that they were in different molds made with different silicone or not.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 4, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> And this is why a non-scientist should not be testing stuff!   I don't take temps.  I soap at room temperature.  Lye concentration was 33.333% (I always soap at 2:1 concentration).  I added 2% salt to the water & fully dissolved it before I added the lye.



Not to complicate matters, but there are a few different things that could cause these additives to have different effects. Let's consider one of them.

How do we know that the usage rates we are testing are at all comparable? Maybe you only need half as much of one additive to get the same effect as another. If instead you put in equal amounts, you don't end up with a meaningful comparison.

So how can we possibly guess what the comparable usage rates might be? Actually there are 2 things you would probably try off the bat. One of them is to use equal percentages by weight as you tried to do. The other is to use equal molar amounts -- which means we try using the same number of molecules instead of the same weight. That would affect the usage rates like so:

Sodium lactate 2%
Sodium acetate 1.5%
Sodium chloride 1%

An SL molecule weighs twice as much as a salt molecule. To add the same number of molecules of each, our salt weight will be half the SL weight. If SL is 2% by weight, the same molar amount of salt is half, or 1% by weight.


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## Steve85569 (Apr 4, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> It was still pretty soft; however, it was olive oil.  Olive oil takes forever to harden up, right?  I did a zap test and it didn't zap.  When I wiped the cutter off I decided to wash my hands with the soft soap to see if there was any kind of lather at all or just slime.  I have chemical burns on my hands.  Apparently, salt reduces the saponification rate of olive oil. By. A. LOT.  That was a majorly stupid thing to do; in the back of my mind, a tiny voice was saying, "This isn't a good idea."  (Even though it didn't zap.  I had never had smooshy soap before.)   I didn't feel the burn at first. .




Ouch!!
Never, ever wash your hands with a soap that hasn't set. You got lucky.
I used to work with commercial quantities of lye cleaning things to bare metal. If you hands start to feel the least bit slick you are headed for trouble there. With the soap you can't feel the slick that lye produces when it starts turning YOU in to - soap.

I have a vinegar / salt / lye mixture cooling now. I have noticed some precipitate so I'll be sure and stir the mixture until everything is in suspension before adding to the oils. I will probably gel this overnight so I won't be even checking on it for 12 hours after I make it. If it isn't firm enough to unmold I won't. I have more time than I have good sense so I can wait.

TT - your burns will turn to a rash looking scab before they heal completely if I remember correctly. They will be sensitive for several weeks too. I'm very glad it wasn't worse. Be careful please!!!

Steve


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## TeresaT (Apr 4, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Not to complicate matters, but there are a few different things that could cause these additives to have different effects. Let's consider one of them.
> 
> How do we know that the usage rates we are testing are at all comparable? Maybe you only need half as much of one additive to get the same effect as another. If instead you put in equal amounts, you don't end up with a meaningful comparison.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm.  I've got the 2% sodium lactate already.  That's colored with ultramarine violet oxide.  The 2% sodium chloride is still crappy.  It's colored with green oxide.  It has the consistency of wet chalk or semi-dried spackle.  I can make a new batch tonight with 1% sodium chloride and see how that fairs tomorrow after work. Since I made four different vinegar batches, one of them is bound to have 1.5% sodium acetate in it.  

However, I think I will try new batches this weekend.  I think I'm going to make the solutions ahead of time and leave them in labeled jars on the counter.  This way, all of the solutions will be at the same "room temperature" when I dump them into the "room temperature" olive oil.  

Since I suck at math, will you tell me how much 5% acidity apple cider vinegar I need to mix with how much distilled water to make a 33.333% lye solution that will give me the needed 1.5% sodium acetate to saponify 8 oz olive oil with a 5% SF according to SoapCalc.  

I just checked the jug from Soaper's Choice and my SL has "sodium lactate/60" on it.  So, when making the solution for the SL, I just use 2% of the 8 oz, which ends up being 4.536 gm (I'll round to 5).  No funky math for that, right?

The salt will be simple, 2.268 gm, rounded down to 2 gm.  

I still don't understand why the salt was an epic fail though.  I used Morton's canning and pickling salt.  It's pure salt.  No additives like iodine or anti-caking agents.  In fact, it's quite a brick.  I had to bang it on the counter to get it into the container.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 4, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Since I suck at math, will you tell me how much 5% acidity apple cider vinegar I need to mix with how much distilled water to make a 33.333% lye solution that will give me the needed 1.5% sodium acetate to saponify 8 oz olive oil with a 5% SF according to SoapCalc.
> 
> I just checked the jug from Soaper's Choice and my SL has "sodium lactate/60" on it.  So, when making the solution for the SL, I just use 2% of the 8 oz, which ends up being 4.536 gm (I'll round to 5).  No funky math for that, right?



Ugh, I forgot to deal with that 60% solution issue. No funky math for the SL but the other amounts have to be multiplied by 0.6. I'll get back to you with more numbers. I have to travel this evening plus I'm stuck using my phone to post at the moment.


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## TeresaT (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve85569 said:


> Ouch!!
> Never, ever wash your hands with a soap that hasn't set. You got lucky.
> I used to work with commercial quantities of lye cleaning things to bare metal. If you hands start to feel the least bit slick you are headed for trouble there. With the soap you can't feel the slick that lye produces when it starts turning YOU in to - soap.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Steve.  Trust me, lesson well learned.  I will never trust "just born" soap again.  If it isn't at least 24 hours old and hard, I will wear gloves.  I've been putting triple antibiotic cream on my hands each time I wash them.  They hurt like heck, but aren't swollen anymore and the majority of the redness is gone.  Right now they look severely chapped and have tiny red lines.  Picture pinkish alligator hide with red cracks instead of the normal green and black combo.  It could have been much worse.  I'm very lucky I had that fancy new faucet.  I would not have been able to turn the knobs on my old one.

BTW:  Everyone, please feel free to use my photos and story as a warning for what can happen when you let your guard down. I never want anyone to experience that intense pain (and the pain I currently have) if a lesson can be learned from my mistake.


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## Steve85569 (Apr 5, 2016)

I waited until this morning to cut the salt brined batch. As I stated in an earlier post the salt did not seem to stay in solution. I did cheat and try 15% salt. That was probably a bit too much since the sodium acetate will take up some of the waters ability to bond with the sodium chloride. 
I also had a bit of trouble with the White Gardena FO so I'm not sure if I got the spots from salt that wasn't still dissolved or from the FO. It looks like it's going to be a nice hard soap in just a few weeks though. 

TT: Keep healing and never forget the lesson. Mr. Lye does not care what he eats. Lye is not your friend or enemy. It just eats anything that is or once was organic.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 6, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Since I suck at math, will you tell me how much 5% acidity apple cider vinegar I need to mix with how much distilled water to make a 33.333% lye solution that will give me the needed 1.5% sodium acetate to saponify 8 oz olive oil with a 5% SF according to SoapCalc.



Sorry, it was a long day.

I know you don't need all of these numbers, but in this post I wanted to summarize the experiment we were talking about in its entirety.

It doesn't matter what units you use in these calculations. I'm going to use grams and calculate the amounts based on 1000 g oil. You could scale that to 8 oz by multiplying the ingredient amounts by 0.23, but I think some of the additive amounts might end up too small for you to measure accurately. You could do larger batches or we could increase the usage rates or both.

The sodium hydroxide and water amounts are based on 33.33% lye concentration and 5% lye discount.

For anyone who happens to notice, we are disregarding small inconsistencies in the water amounts between these scenarios.

-- No Additive
1000 g olive oil
257.4 g water
128.7 g NaOH

-- Sodium Lactate 1.20% (dry weight)
1000 g olive oil
257.4 g water
128.7 g NaOH
20 g 60% sodium lactate

-- Sodium Acetate 1.20% (equal weight)
1000 g olive oil
175.2 g vinegar
82.2 g water
134.6 g NaOH

-- Sodium Chloride 1.20% (equal weight)
1000 g olive oil
257.4 g water
128.7 g NaOH
12 g salt

-- Sodium Acetate 0.88% (equal molar amount)
1000 g olive oil
128.5 g vinegar
128.9 g water
133.0 g NaOH

-- Sodium Chloride 0.62% (equal molar amount)
1000 g olive oil
257.4 g water
128.7 g NaOH
6.2 g salt


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## TeresaT (Apr 6, 2016)

I just ordered this scale from Amazon.  It should be here on Friday.  That will give me time to make the lye solutions and let them come to room temperature then make the soap on Sunday.  I've been wanting a scale that will give me readings down to .001 gm for a while now.  So this gave me the incentive to purchase a relatively inexpensive one that goes up to 50 gm.  I hope it is actually accurate 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B011J88S8M/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Althea (Dec 31, 2019)

I need to replace SL in a HP 100% Coconut Oil soap recipe with a 30% SF as an additive (after Trace)  at 3% PPO. We don't get SL where I live so need to substitute it. Would it be the same as per all the calculations already given. 

Please forgive me, I did not do science, am not good in maths and am a serious newbie soaper who prefers HP. 

Help and advice on the above is welcome.


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## AliOop (Dec 31, 2019)

Althea said:


> I need to replace SL in a HP 100% Coconut Oil soap recipe with a 30% SF as an additive (after Trace)  at 3% PPO. We don't get SL where I live so need to substitute it. Would it be the same as per all the calculations already given.
> 
> Please forgive me, I did not do science, am not good in maths and am a serious newbie soaper who prefers HP.
> 
> Help and advice on the above is welcome.


In case no one else answers, I personally would not add SL to a 100% CO 30%SF recipe. CO gets very hard on it's own, and unmolds very easily within less than a day for CP, and within hours for HP. So my advice would be to leave out the SL altogether.


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## Althea (Dec 31, 2019)

AliOop said:


> In case no one else answers, I personally would not add SL to a 100% CO 30%SF recipe. CO gets very hard on it's own, and unmolds very easily within less than a day for CP, and within hours for HP. So my advice would be to leave out the SL altogether.


The recipe requires the SL as it is a SBHP Soap Recipe  it is not as much  for the hardening of the soap but more to spread up saponification and to assist with liquidity to mold and swirl.


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## AliOop (Dec 31, 2019)

Ahhh, I see. I do HTFHP, so I'm all about it.   I personally like the effects of SL but hate spending money to special order stuff that isn't already in my kitchen.  You could use a different trace accelerant, including a few shreds of finished soap, or a 2-3 drops of cinnamon EO.  My skin is super sensitive to cinnamon EO, but at 2 drops per 3lb batch, I don't get any reaction at all. And it definitely accelerates the batter. Although you don't need sugar for lather in a 100% CO soap, it does heat the batter, and heat also speeds up acceleration. 

Just a few options to consider.


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## Sharon Borninkhof (Jan 1, 2020)

topofmurrayhill said:


> When you use vinegar to replace some or all of your water, the acetic acid in the vinegar reacts with sodium hydroxide to form sodium acetate. Sodium acetate works like sodium lactate to harden your soap, except all you have to buy is vinegar.
> 
> I promised simpler instructions for folks who don't want to get so exacting with the math. I have done this technique with white vinegar, but the instructions will work with any vinegar that contains 5% acetic acid.
> 
> ...


How does the saponification happen when you mix vinegar (an acid) and NaOH (an alcaline) together?


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## Lin19687 (Jan 1, 2020)

7a) "I recently came across a much older thread on the forum that contained some info that really helped me out, and so I responded to it with a 'thanks!'", or.....

7b ) "I recently came across a much older thread that left me curious about a few things, and so I posted to it in order to ask a question.", or....

7c) "I recently came accross a much older thread that inquired about a certain subject that I happen to know a little something about, and so I posted to it in order to contribute my 2-cents." .......

Why such negative responses to the above from some of our members?

In a word: necroposting (a combination of "necro" = dead, and posting), i.e., urban slang for posting to a thread that has been dead for some time. 

If one does an internet search on necroposting, one will quickly discover that the practice is generally frowned upon and even outright banned on many forums, although there are some forums that tolerate it......up to a point. SMF does not have an official rule that outright bans necroposting (we tolerate it up to a certain point), but because it can oftentimes be a bone of contention amongst some of the more established members of our community, most especially when one's necrocropost is a rather frivolous one, and/or does not add any new, useful/helpful information to the discussion in old thread, we've put together some guidelines that will help you decide whether tis better to necropost and risk the potential ire of the community, or to refrain and just hit the 'Like" button instead, or to start an entirely new thread with a link pointing to the old thread: 

-Guideline in regards to statement '7a' from above (necroposting to merely add a 'thanks'): Definitely not worth the ire. 'Tis much better to click on the 'Like' button than to necropost on an old thread just to say 'Thanks!" or "Cool idea!" or other such similar things that don't add anything useful to the discussion ........especially since many see this type of necroposting as nothing more than a ploy to boost one's post count. 

-Guideline in regards to statement '7b' from above (necroposting to ask a question): More than likely not worth the ire. 'Tis much better to start a new thread in which to pose your question (with a link pointing to the old thread), than it is to necropost in the old thread, because new questions posed on old threads oftentimes fail to generate a response, especially if the original OP and/or respondents are no longer active on the board. Besides that, there's also a good chance that your question may fail to generate a response because new questions posed on old threads oftentimes get lost in the shuffle due to people mistaking the old thread for a brand new thread. What happens in that case is that the people who open up the thread (who mistakenly think that it is a new thread) will read only so far as the OP's question in post #1 and respond to _that_, without ever seeing your question that was posted further along, which will result in your question becoming buried in the mix where it is even harder to see. 

Necroposting to ask a question can also cause a bit of troublesome confusion and possibly even danger for newer members depending on how old the thread is when the new question bumps the thread back up to the front page, because many of the old posts in the thread may contain outdated/abandoned advice no longer espoused by the original poster(s) to the thread, and/or practices no longer deemed necessary or safe...... but because the thread is back on the front page, it is often mistaken by newcomers as being a current thread filled with current, up-to-date good info and advice, when the very opposite may actually be the case. 

Last but not least, there are a number of our members who have gone on record with the statement that they take a dim view of necroposting, and purposefully refuse to open threads that have been resurrected by a necropost.

-Guideline in regards to statement '7c' from above (necroposting to add a new bit of helpful wisdom): This is one of the times where a necropost might be worth the risk of attracting any potential ire, depending on the level of helpfulness, accuracy, and/or relevance of your words of wisdom. If you are ever in doubt, though, as to whether you should necropost your words of wisdom in the old thread, or rather introduce them in a new thread with a link pointing to the old thread, just let it be said that no one will ever fault you for doing the latter of the two.


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## Jennifer Horne (Jan 2, 2020)

SL is liquid salt, wouldnt salt do the same thing? I dont know much about HP yet but i use salt for my CP instead of SL


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## cmzaha (Jan 2, 2020)

Althea said:


> I need to replace SL in a HP 100% Coconut Oil soap recipe with a 30% SF as an additive (after Trace)  at 3% PPO. We don't get SL where I live so need to substitute it. Would it be the same as per all the calculations already given.
> 
> Please forgive me, I did not do science, am not good in maths and am a serious newbie soaper who prefers HP.
> 
> Help and advice on the above is welcome.


First off this is an old post and you would be better off creating a new thread with your question.
Also, this is a thread about using vinegar for creating a harder bar of soap. So, if you are trying to replace SL in HP to create a more liquid pour vinegar is not a good replacement. You might try some sugar water instead.


Sharon Borninkhof said:


> How does the saponification happen when you mix vinegar (an acid) and NaOH (an alcaline) together?


Vinegar does not affect saponification. What it does is react with the lye to create sodium acetate which will act similar to sodium lactate to help harden your soap. This will only happen when extra NaOH at the rate of 0.0357 is added. I only list NaOH since that is what we use for bar soap. If the extra lye is not added the vinegar will result in added superfat because it will still react with the lye leaving extra fat in the soap. You can read about it here. https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.asp


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