# Frustrations for Canadian Soapers



## Karri (Aug 22, 2011)

So I called a local insurance agent (from a very established insurance company here in Canada) regarding a quote.

He was SUPER nice and very willing to look into everything I was asking about and provide a quote. But would you believe that the last time he was asked to quote someone on something similar (handmade soap/body care biz) was* TEN YEARS AGO*??!!??

I have also contacted someone in Ontario from a different insurance company and he did send me a form to apply for crafter's insurance.

But I was hoping to use someone local and I see no reason why I should have to literally go cross-country to get insurance. There are almost 90,000 people in my city and tons of surrounding smaller towns which we service. Yet the handmade soap thing is lost on people from a business perspective.

The dearth of knowledge about this industry in Canada tells me that very few soapers must be insuring or following rules 'n regs. (No big surprise but just sayin')

So it's really a "paving the way" thing for people like me. Which is fine but  a little taxing on the nerves :?

Okay, thanks for letting me vent 
Karri


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## AmyW (Aug 22, 2011)

I'll be in Alberta in a few months and hopefully doing business next year.... I think insurance is the main things I'm not looking forward to working on. Let us know what you find, your paving the way will make it easier on the rest of us (and I greatly appreciate it).


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## Karri (Aug 22, 2011)

Thanks Amy - whereabouts in AB will you be headed? I'm in Lethbridge, a couple hours south of Calgary.

Between the insurance and the *labeling *regs I'm growing a LOT of gray hair these days. LOL.

This morning I discovered yet _another _Canadian gov't department website with guidelines for labeling: the Competition Bureau. 

So that's Industry Canada, the Department of Justice, the Competition Bureau and Health Canada that ALL have rules/regulations that apply to labeling soap! I've lost count of how many Acts and Guidelines and what-have-you I've tried to sift through. I'll probably just have to print it all out and put it in a giant binder. LOL. 

So much of it seems redundant and I feel like I'm sifting through the same details again and again. Yet I've no clue what I might *not* be catching. 

Karri


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## AmyW (Aug 22, 2011)

My husband lives half way between Fox Creek and Valleyview, way up in the middle of nowhereland. We've got friends and family in both the Edmonton and Calgary areas though.

I wish labeling (ok honestly, everything) was as easy as it is here in the US. I haven't figured out if I *have* to use INCI or if I can do english/french (and if I can, how on earth do I translate each ingredient to french, hiring a translator won't be in the budget and learning french....ah, not going to happen lol). Once we figure it out it'll go smooth, just a headache til that point!


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## Karri (Aug 22, 2011)

Glad I'm not the only one beating my head against the wall  Haha!

Will be very cool to know I've got a soaping compatriot up north!

*Re INCI:* my understanding is that you use INCI to list your ingredients and that's ALL you need in terms of ingredient listing. INCI covers off the language thing because it's considered "international." So no bilingual stuff there.

I believe you DO have to say "what" the product is in both languages. So I believe in our case you'd have to say both "soap" and "savon" (or maybe "handmade soap" and whatever the French version is).

Where I'm confused is how this translates should you ship south of the border. Does the US FDA "care" if you have French wording on the label? LOL. And what about marketing copy like "We use all natural ingredients and no synthetics, bla bla bla." I want to include this on the label but can it be English only? 

Re insurance: I'm reviewing the form provided to me by Canfinse and it doesn't look too bad. But the rep is in Ontario ... a zillion miles away.

Someday, oh someday, we'll get there!
Karri


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## AmyW (Aug 22, 2011)

For the labels in the US, I have Herbal Essence shampoo made in Canada, that has both english and french for the whole label (name, ingredients, everything), so I am going to go with the FDA doesn't care  

What I want to do with the ingredients is to be able to list the "real" names - Olive Oil for example. Do I have to list it like this: "INCI Name (English/French)" or can I just list "Olive Oil/French word for Olive Oil" - not sure that makes any sense lol... the INCI names are confusing and make it look like your product has all sorts of chemicals to the average person, I'd like to be able to clarify that each "weird" name is just an innocent ingredient.

I just read about marketing material somewhere, but I can't remember what it said, and I can't remember where I read it grr. Looking at all the Canadian retail soap websites though, everything is in English (though I didn't check Quebec), but I of course don't have any printed materials for them. I'll try to find that link again.


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## Karri (Aug 22, 2011)

I know what you mean re use of plain English for your ingredients. How many people actually know what "sodium cocoate" is anyway? LOL. But even if you use common vocabulary you will still have to list everything in INCI as well. So I think a lot of soapers just do INCI and be done with it. 

I like the use of bracketed, commonplace terms beside each INCI term but if you tried to do it bilingually it would get looooong. i.e. the equivalent of sodium cocoate is "saponifed coconut oil" ... and once you add French to that ... yikes! Word-fest 

I remember Lindy saying that she keeps her labels very simple so as not to get into all this. She's probably smart to do that 

I think we have to remember that a lot happens at "point of sale" (website, farmer's market, kiosk, etc) so we can educate our customers that way, and probably more effectively than an itty bitty label would anyway.

Karri

EDIT: Here's a labeling worksheet I came across today on the Competition Bureau site. Note that it does NOT include requirements for soap specifically (ingredients/etc) but it does give you some indication of how your labels might need to be laid out if you're in Canada http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/ ... 01465.html


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## AmyW (Aug 22, 2011)

OMG there's specific regulations for stating "made in canada" my brain just broke! LOL It looks like stating "made in canada with imported oils (or ingredients, or something)" is ok though. I don't see a need for a permit at least. Not sure I will use that, but it jumped out at me.

You are so right about being able to educate the customer at the point of sale. Being able to list the ingredients on a brochure/handout, and on the product pages of the website, will have to be good enough. I'll just stick with in INCI. If I ever get big enough to sell in local stores, I'll cross that bridge then (maybe through my web address on the label... maybe something like "for more information on this soap and it's ingredients, visit blah blah blah"? just "thinking out loud", so to speak).

I've been working on my business plan bit by bit and I think each time I get online I think of something else I need to make sure is included lol


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## Karri (Aug 25, 2011)

Hey Amy - I just posted a new topic over in the General Biz forum that you might be interested in. It's regarding some picky stuff I have been reading about pertaining to botanicals and "Trivial Names" (per ingredient lists).

Thought I'd give you the heads up as I'm discovering a few things ...

Sigh. We'll get there!

Karri


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## AmyW (Aug 26, 2011)

I will be back... that's a lot of info to look into lol


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## Lindy (Aug 26, 2011)

With the "Made in Canada" or "Canadian Product" is fine for our products since the final process with the oils etc is done here in Canada into a recognizable product.

I personally put on mine "Proudly Made in Powell River, BC"  At one point I was putting both the Canadian and BC flag onto the label.   

Amy in Canada you must use the INCI name unless there is none available and then you can use the trivial name.  Believe it or not it is much easier with our dual official languages.

Welcome to Canada (soon)...


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