# Tooth soap



## ryanbmw

Hey guys new to the forum, and new to the soap making world and process. First off Im a hobbyist in many different projects and thoroughly enjoy making my own projects. That being said Im currently in an en-devour on making an alternative toothpaste. I am using a soap making process to do so, I will be using a hot process, my trouble is what processes can remove the glycerin from the soap because glycerin coats teeth so I need to remove that from the soap. I have seen or read about "boiling it off" and " salting" both which I cant find real reliable information. I think I am capable of the hot process up to where I would boil it off or salt it, any help on these process would be appreciated. also I am looking to incorporate baking soda into my recipe to help neutralize any soap flavor any ideas on when the best time to add the baking soda would be, IE at the begining with my oils before the lye, or after when I am adding my flavors and colors. Any help with this project would be greatly appreciated. thanks


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## smeetree

I have been researching alternative toothpaste for some time. I haven't found a good recipe, and you need to be really careful with the abrasive because you can remove tooth enamel. You have to be careful if you use a flavor, too, because certain EOs actually ruin gum tissue. The mouth is a very sensitive and temperamental area. If you find a great recipe let me know.


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## tinytreats

Now, I hope I don't stir up any sort of controversy or offend anyone with my comment, but here I go. 

I am a registered dental assistant. I sell soap part time. I would strongly suggest AGAINST using dental soap. Toothpaste is formulated specifically to PROTECT your teeth from damage. It contains fluoride which helps with remineralizing tooth structure that has been damaged by tartar build up. Provided you don't swallow the toothpaste, there is no risk of fluoridation (as some people like to argue). Keeping your teeth clean of plaque prevents tartar build up. What is tartar? It is hard mineral deposits that sit on your teeth and release bacteria. This bacteria could eventually lead to periodontal disease. Periodontal disease is when your bone starts to shrink away from your teeth, and this is what causes mobility in teeth. Toothpaste is your friend. 

But if you do decide to use dental soap, I recommend going easy on the baking soda. Like mentioned above, baking soda is very abrasive and ruins tooth enamel. Enamel doesn't grow back. Once it's gone, it's gone for  good.


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## smeetree

tinytreats said:


> I am a registered dental assistant. I sell soap part time. I would strongly suggest AGAINST using dental soap. Toothpaste is formulated specifically to PROTECT your teeth from damage. It contains fluoride which helps with remineralizing tooth structure that has been damaged by tartar build up. Provided you don't swallow the toothpaste, there is no risk of fluoridation (as some people like to argue). Keeping your teeth clean of plaque prevents tartar build up. What is tartar? It is hard mineral deposits that sit on your teeth and release bacteria. This bacteria could eventually lead to periodontal disease. Periodontal disease is when your bone starts to shrink away from your teeth, and this is what causes mobility in teeth. Toothpaste is your friend.



Flouride is actually one of the most toxic substances (see the back of toothpaste--they say to call poison control if ingested). Why would anyone think this is healthy/natural to put on teeth? Also, unflouridated countries (e.g. all of Europe, Africa, etc) show no improvement in tooth enamel. There are many studies on this. It's a myth that flouride does anything for the enamel. In fact, many people say that Alcoa just wanted to get rid of their excess flouride (a byproduct of making aluminum), so they decided to market it as a dental product behind shady science. They hired someone who would say that and got the ADA behind it.

As far as baking soda, it is actually a 7 on the RDA scale (abrasion scale). Standard toothpastes range from 30 to 200, so they are much more abrasive. Below 70 RDA is considered non-abrasive.

Most remineralization of the teeth/enamel comes from saliva and diet. 

The rest of what you wrote is basically true. People should clean properly to avoid periodontal disease.


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## shunt2011

If you do a search there has been several discussions regarding this on the forum.  Also, if you scroll to the bottom of this page there are links to several of them too.


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## ryanbmw

Tiny treats, we will probably never see eye on this but if you are in the field of dentistry then you may find Dr. Gerald Judd pretty fascinating because he has a lot of research that shows that flouride is not all that great. I am in the medical field and everyday I learn of innaccuracys that I was taught that a theory wouldn't work, and that theory works because of that very same reason I was told it would not, so sometimes you have to let research dictate what you know, not all based on what your taught. First on top of being rat poison, flouride has actually led to tooth decay as a result of a study done in Europe after they took fluoride out of water, there has been less tooth decay. second the glycerin in tooth pastecoats teeth for about 25 washes and actually doesn't allow the fluoride to even reach the teeth even if it were to do what the ADA says it does.  Thirdly they use silica which is sand and by-products from aluminum as abrasives in mainstream tooth paste so a little baking soda/water solution is way better than those two items. Also just like you know tooth decay is a combo of bacteria and sugar and the by product of the bacteria eating the sugar makes acid which decays teeth.  So the idea of soap is no glycerin to coat teeth allows teeth to naturally re-mineralize with phosphates in our diet, and the soap removes bacteria and sugar thus eliminating and further decay while the teeth rebuild naturally. Dentristy is just like mainstream medicines you only know what your tought while in school and they only teach one theory. The truth of it fo me is that I've been using soap for years I have not been to the dentist in 11 years after a visit I made last week at the request of my girldfriend, I was told to keep doin what I have bee doin my teeth look great. I dont have stronger than normal teeth either as a fact when I was a child I accumulated 5 or 6 cavities, so i stick with what works. I'm just simply trying to create a better tasting homemade version of what I currently buy.


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## ryanbmw

I don't want to make this thread a discussion of weather tooth soap is a good thing or not, I just want to know about salting or boiling off of the glycerin that's the main thing I want to learn.


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## savonierre

I make tooth soap with 3 oils and EO no other additives . I make it HP and do nothing else but cook it until it is done.  My hubby's teeth are plaque magnets, his check up's are better using the tooth soap vs toothpaste.


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## cmzaha

tinytreats said:


> Now, I hope I don't stir up any sort of controversy or offend anyone with my comment, but here I go.
> 
> I am a registered dental assistant. I sell soap part time. I would strongly suggest AGAINST using dental soap. Toothpaste is formulated specifically to PROTECT your teeth from damage. It contains fluoride which helps with remineralizing tooth structure that has been damaged by tartar build up. Provided you don't swallow the toothpaste, there is no risk of fluoridation (as some people like to argue). Keeping your teeth clean of plaque prevents tartar build up. What is tartar? It is hard mineral deposits that sit on your teeth and release bacteria. This bacteria could eventually lead to periodontal disease. Periodontal disease is when your bone starts to shrink away from your teeth, and this is what causes mobility in teeth. Toothpaste is your friend.
> 
> But if you do decide to use dental soap, I recommend going easy on the baking soda. Like mentioned above, baking soda is very abrasive and ruins tooth enamel. Enamel doesn't grow back. Once it's gone, it's gone for good.


 
Finally someone agrees with me. After 50K+ dental work & surgeries I am not about to use soap for cleaning my teeth and gums. Will use what the pros tell me to use. Baking soda is high ph


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## Yooper

ryanbmw said:


> I don't want to make this thread a discussion of weather tooth soap is a good thing or not, I just want to know about salting or boiling off of the glycerin that's the main thing I want to learn.



I don't boil off the glycerine, but I am making tooth soap now.  It works great, and according to my hygenist, I'm not building up.  (I also use a waterpik).  I don't use fluoride at all, nor do I have fluoridated water.  I stopped fluoride treatments several years ago, before my dentist even stopped offering it.

Anyway, here is a recent thread where we talked about how to formulate it:  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=39305

A couple of key take aways- coconut oil is awesome for your tooth (read up on "oil pulling"), but saponified coconut oil tastes horrible.  The dental soap I made, 90% olive oil and 10% cocoa butter is bland but doesn't taste bad.  Since I won't use any sweeteners, artificial or otherwise, I will increase the peppermint EO maybe but it's really not bad at all.  My husband, who missed toothpaste at first, now calls it "neutral".  

If you want to boil off the glycerine, you'd probably want to make the bars as usual, then grate them up and put them in a saturated salt solution and boil that, then scoop out the "curds" of soap and smash them back together.  They won't want to stay together well, but they will sort of stick together.  I don't mind the glycerine in the soap, so I didn't bother with trying to separate the glycerine out.

For the next dental soap, I may hot process and add the peppermint EO after saponification to see if some of the scent remains a bit better.  I don't use much, as I'm a big believer in "less is more", and the reason I'm making my own soaps and shampoos and things is to avoid additives and chemicals.


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## ryanbmw

Cmzaha, hate to break it to you but toothpaste is soap with fluoride,abrasives, and glycerin added in enough quantity to make it a paste, but thats fine you can use whatever you want I'm not here to convert anyone or ask anyones opinion about using it i have done tons of hrs of research for myself, I simply asked how to remove the glycerin so I can make the best soap for my teeth. And for the people who are already doin so, I would suggest starting to remove the glycerin that would make your soap that much better for your teeth as thats what keeps sugars and bacteria on your teeth and prevents natural re-mineralization from occurring the 15%-30% that occurs with homemade soap is a lot better than mainstream toothpaste but this all just my opinion from my research.


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## smeetree

ryanbmw said:


> natural re-mineralization from occurring the 15%-30% that occurs with homemade soap is a lot better than mainstream toothpaste but this all just my opinion from my research.



Have you noticed re-mineralization? 

And what's your opinion of brands like Tom's of Maine? After PG bought them I hear they're in decline. I use it because I can't find a better alternative yet. But I'm looking.

I know you don't want to make this a toothpaste thread so you don't have to answer.


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## ryanbmw

Smeetree, I would deffinatly say that switching  to tooth soap has changed every aspect of brushing teeth. My mouth feels cleaner, I seem to have better breath, my teeth are less sensitive so i would say that the sensitivity would be an indication of thicker enamal or re-mineralization. I would say that when I started using tooth soap I felt sensitivity to sweets like a cavity that went away with time, but that is all opinion because I didn't see a dentist regularly to verify any of the results. Soap is a little different to get used to but by a week or so its easily tolerable. Thus I'm trying to make a better tasting soap now. As far as toms and other natural toothpastes that are flouride free I would say in my opinion its better than some of the commercial chemicals going in mainstream toothpastes, but if i remember still has glycerin as the #1 or #2 ingredient so still coats your teeth  but has less chemicals. I honestly have never used any of them so im basing my judgement purely of an ingrediant standpoint.


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## judymoody

I have used tooth soap for the last year or so (nothing fancy, no glycerine removal, just 90% OO, 10% CB, 5% SF) with xylitol and a bit of food safe EO (either orange or mint).  It keeps my teeth more plaque-free than regular toothpaste and my gum health (which has always been pretty decent) has actually improved a bit.  Not the best taste sensation in the world, but it works and I'm satisfied.  Just my experience, not trying to impose on anybody.


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## girlishcharm2004

cmzaha said:


> After 50K+ dental work & surgeries I am not about to use soap for cleaning my teeth and gums. Will use what the pros tell me to use.



It's like a mid-wife saying not to use condemns -- job security.  (Tongue and cheek)


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## girlishcharm2004

Ryanbmw, I've done my research with toothpaste.  I've found three research studies that proved that fluoride harms the body without providing any benefits to the teeth.  I'm convinced.  However, what I'm not convinced about is the glycerin.  I couldn't find a single research study to prove anything -- only a quote from someone who wasn't even a dentist.  My theory is, if glycerin works so well to coat the teeth, then theoretically it would shield and protect the teeth from new bacteria/sugar/acid being introduced to wear it down. Shouldn't it?  That's only a theory IF it actually coats the teeth.  Even the tooth soap that people have been using for centuries was just plain grated soap -- it still had glycerin, and my grandparents still have teeth.  Just a thought that it might not be as big of a deal as you think.


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## Lin

smeetree said:


> I use it because I can't find a better alternative yet. But I'm looking.



This may interest you: 
http://wellnessmama.com/2500/homemade-remineralizing-toothpaste-recipe/


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## smeetree

girlishcharm2004 said:


> Ryanbmw, I've done my research with toothpaste.  I've found three research studies that proved that fluoride harms the body without providing any benefits to the teeth.  I'm convinced.  However, what I'm not convinced about is the glycerin.  I couldn't find a single research study to prove anything -- only a quote from someone who wasn't even a dentist.  My theory is, if glycerin works so well to coat the teeth, then theoretically it would shield and protect the teeth from new bacteria/sugar/acid being introduced to wear it down. Shouldn't it?  That's only a theory IF it actually coats the teeth.  Even the tooth soap that people have been using for centuries was just plain grated soap -- it still had glycerin, and my grandparents still have teeth.  Just a thought that it might not be as big of a deal as you think.



The best thing to do is look at a chart of acidic foods/drinks and avoid those as much as possible. Then brush naked or with a non-abrasive toothpaste. The science is too shady to trust. I know the fluoride-being-beneficial stuff is BS because non-fluoridated western countries have just as much decay, etc. Much of the third world, which doesn't eat processed foods, has good healthy teeth. So there is some cultural and environmental stuff going on. I'd use common sense and avoid acids, processed foods, etc. Maybe rinse with a baking soda/alkaline water at night to make sure you're not acidic at bedtime. If you do all that and then brush with a mild abrassive you should be fine. This talk about glycerine is moot because prehistoric man didn't use it and their teeth were fine. There are more dental and jaw deformities now than ever, and it is probably due to environmental factors like diet, plastics, lead, etc. Don't eat lead paint and your teeth should be fine, girl charm.


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## ryanbmw

girlishcharm2004, your right that glycerin is not  really harmful, but the principal of using a tooth soap is for natural re-mineralization. The glycerin slows that process by coating, so it wont harm anything especially since its at way lower levels than toothpaste, but a glycerin free soap would make that natural process better or call it the "ideal" soap.that all. By using soap you already should have gotten rid of the bacteria and sugars, just a simple water swig or drinking it for that matter a few times a day will help keep them clean till your evening brush.


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## mel z

I've had a few dentists tell me toothpaste is actually unnecessary. It is the brushing that is important.

TBH, I think our tooth health is hereditary, that is if you brush daily and don't eat a bunch of candy or drink a lot of alcohol, or do bad drugs, and never brush your teeth. If you are relatively healthy, clean, and brush your teeth, then your tooth health may rely on genetics.

My father only used baking soda to brush his very healthy teeth. Just stuck his brush right in the box he kept in the bathroom. He had all of his teeth and no cavities or tartar build up when he died.

My mother, on the other hand, had the bad teeth. She uses, and always has, toothpaste. She has lots of tartar buildup, cavities, and tooth removal. Guess who's teeth I got, and my teeth are incredibly soft which is not good as I age. :x

At any rate, I use all. I use soap sometimes, baking soda sometimes, and toothpaste sometimes. I feel it can't hurt to try as long as I brush for at least 2 minutes at a time. 

Tooth soap is just another addition to my arsenal, and another excuse to make more soap! 

At any rate, that is my unprofessional personal observations. YMMV.


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## Tienne

About removing the glycerine (a.k.a glycerol) from soap. After saponification, you add a saturated sodium chloride (a.k.a ordinary salt) solution to the soap and boil the soap in that solution until the soap curds precipitate out. Then you draw off the layer of water/salt/glycerine. Then you boil the curds in water one more time. Then you add salt one more time to re-precipitate the soap out again. Then draw off the liquid again. You can repeat the process yet again if you wish, but two times should be enough for what you want to use the soap for.

EDIT: Be sure to use salt that has not had iodine added to it.


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## Lin

What does the iodine do to soap? I asked this in another thread about putting salt in soap. I want to know out of curiosity.


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## Tienne

I was afraid someone would ask.  

Okay, here goes. LOL Be warned, but this is probably going to be a LONG post.

***********************

 Elemental iodine is _very_  poisonous. Sodium iodide less so, but also poisonous. Drinking just a mouthful of Betadine for example could make you _very, very_  ill in a very short time or even kill you, so don't try that at home,  kids!  You don't swallow tooth  soap though, so any danger from toxicity would be absolutely minimal if  the soap curds happened to contain iodine or iodide. Iodide_ is_ a  halogen "relative" of fluoride and reacts in pretty much the  same way, with the same things, Chloride, too. They're chemical  equivalents. If someone has issues with fluoride (I don't) they might  like to avoid iodine/iodide too. I wouldn't be concerned about it, but  others might.

 When you're removing the glycerine from  the soap by using brine, what  you're doing is creating a common ion situation. (Sodium  hydroxide,  sodium chloride and the sodium soap salts.) All those sodium ions is  what causes the soap salts to precipitate out as curds, as they are the  least soluble of the bunch. The solution  simply cannot hold so many sodium salts. (Sodium iodide would add to the   common ion situation as well, if using iodized salt.)  Iodine/ iodide  might possibly function as an antimicrobial in a tooth soap, (its use  there being  purely topical) but iodine is yellowish/purplish/black coloured and it  stains. An iodine and potassium iodide solution is the stuff they use in  hospitals on your  skin to disinfect. That's the stuff  that turns your skin yellow/brown. It's also used as a cell stain in  labs and  it's used in the dental profession as a mucogingival stain. It gives you funky coloured teeth. LOL .You used to be able to get a  Betadine mouthwash to  treat oral infections, but it has been discontinued many places and it  was only recommended for very short term use. It stained the teeth  brown. Not  really all that attractive. LOL  If anyone is familiar with "Betadine"  you know how it stains. Having as little iodine/iodide in one's soap  curds as possible might be desirable for that reason, too .

 Also, the higher the iodine, the softer the soap. The iodine value  is a measure of the saturation of a fat or oil. Saturated fats have low  iodine values, and unsaturated fats have high  iodine values. I have never made soap curds or toothpaste out of them,  so I don't know if that would be an issue, but high iodine levels will  shorten the shelf life of your soap. I suspect tooth soaps are kept around  for a long time since you use so little of it each time and the thought  of waking up one morning and sticking a toothbrush full of rancid soap  in my mouth doesn't really sound all that appealing. LOL Hence you want  to try and  keep the iodine levels low for that reason too. Using iodized salt to  precipate the soap curds can't be helpful towards that end.

 So, to sum it up, it won't kill you to have iodine/ iodide (or fluoride)  in your tooth soap or paste. Not at all.   I myself don't have any fears regarding it's toxicity, but I_ would_ mind if my soap went rancid too soon or if there was any chance that prolonged use could cause any issues with  discolouration.

WOW. Sorry about the marathon rant folks. I never have been  good at keeping things short, but that explains my previous suggestion  to not use iodized salt and that goes especially if you also plan on  recovering the glycerine from the brine solution later on. Since  it's  water soluble, there would be a relatively high amount of iodine in that solution. Why  compromise the soap (or the glycerine) when it's  not necessary. 

  Rant over!


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## Lin

Is the issue with soft soap the reason behind not using iodized salt in salt soaps or when adding salt to harden a soap?


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