# 100 % Natural Or Not



## pecorasfigs (Aug 17, 2014)

Hi everyone, Hope all is well. I know u can call soap all natural. When u use EO and natural colorants. But what can u say. when u use FO and artificial coloring. 95% natural ?????. Please share your thoughts and knowledge


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## Meganmischke (Aug 17, 2014)

There is no regulation on the word natural.  You can label anything as natural. I do however suggest using your best judgment and disclosing all ingredients so the consumer can make their choice.


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## KristaY (Aug 17, 2014)

I recently read on the forum somewhere (sorry, I can't find it at the moment!) that soap can't be labeled 100% natural unless you make your own lye by leaching ashes. Hopefully that person will come along and give you the specific info on it. If you use purchase NaOH but use all other natural ingredients, it might be okay to do the math and state it's "whatever % natural". But as Meganmischke said, disclose your ingredients so the consumer can make their decision. I'm going to keep looking for that thread.....


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## RockinRodeoChick (Aug 17, 2014)

Personally, I think I would just stay away from that word entirely. Soap isn't natural, whether the ingredients were or not no longer matters to me.


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## Meganmischke (Aug 17, 2014)

Agreed if I were to sell I wouldn't use it either.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 17, 2014)

There is a thread on B&B about a new shaving soap from a hand crafted soap maker. All the products are listed as all natural while using FOs and (I am fairly certain) factory made lye. 

While I can't tell if the products are any good from that, it makes me as a soaper a little bit wary of someone who wants to market products either knowingly or unknowingly falsely. 

If it is knowingly, what other little tricks might they be pulling? If it is unknowingly, what else about soap do they think is true when it is false?

Of course, average Joe's night not have this train of thought, but I certainly do


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## Susie (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm not voting.  I don't really care if soap is "natural" or not.  If it works, and does not make me itch, I am a happy camper.


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## FGOriold (Aug 17, 2014)

You can call anything you want "natural" but it is just a marketing term with no legal definition as for how it can be used in many industries.  Personally, when I see the word used for marketing purposes, it just raises a red flag that the company is trying to pull something over on the consumer knowing that it has no legal definition. If you use the true definition of "natural"

1. existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

Nothing we purchase outside of just picked fruit, vegetables and grains should be labeled natural (and even with those, I am sure many have been treated with pesticides, fertilizer, etc - thus would that negate the natural state too).

So to me - it is a useless term that just grabs people's attention to make them "think" they are getting a better product. I personally stay away from products that use this term to advertise with.


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## Dorymae (Aug 17, 2014)

I had to vote yes because YOU CAN.  Does that mean I would - no.  However all natural, natural and 100% natural mean nothing when it comes to labels.  I could put 100% natural on a plastic bowl and it is legally fine and correct.  There is no definition of natural and as long as on some level I can break it down to the chemical composition - it is natural. 

Crazy - yes but I avoid the word natural because it means nothing and everything.


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## Dorymae (Aug 17, 2014)

KristaY said:


> I recently read on the forum somewhere (sorry, I can't find it at the moment!) that soap can't be labeled 100% natural unless you make your own lye by leaching ashes. Hopefully that person will come along and give you the specific info on it. If you use purchase NaOH but use all other natural ingredients, it might be okay to do the math and state it's "whatever % natural". But as Meganmischke said, disclose your ingredients so the consumer can make their decision. I'm going to keep looking for that thread.....




That is wrong...You can label anything natural.  Truly anything.  You wouldn't need to leach lye or even use oils....you could use detergent and call it natural.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 17, 2014)

That word ... "natural". Eh, the word is absolutely meaningless except to the gullible. 

Leached lye or store-bought lye -- why stop after making this distinction? 

Let's also add that one must raise, kill, and butcher the animals providing the lard and tallow. And grow the coconut, olive, avocado, and palm trees, etc., so we can harvest and press their fruits to obtain the oil. Oh, and also use water from wells we hand dig or from rainwater collected from our cottage roofs we have thatched with reeds we have harvested.

"Natural" is almost as bad as the idea some people have of being "chemical free".


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## lpstephy85 (Aug 17, 2014)

Was selling yesterday at a winery festival and a lady asked me if my soap was all natural. I used to dread that question the first couple times it was asked to me, but now it doesn't bother me. I simply tell them "no, we do not make that claim." I keep it short and sweet, allow them to see all of our ingredients and if they buy, great and if they don't then it is what it is. I am not out to make a buck on trying to dupe people in to my products.


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## HoneyLady (Aug 17, 2014)

I like to say something along the lines of, "My unscented soaps are, but of course the great smelling ones (like the _____ in your hand) use synthetic Fragrance Oils.  I also make _soap_, not _detergent_ . . .) and start discussing the differences there.

 In my experience, most people who ask about "natural" are actually thinking "soap vs. detergent", they just don't know how to ask.

 As a side note, I am also often ask if I "make" my own honey.  I reply that no, the bees do, and I don't want to work as hard as they do.  

 People sometimes just need help clarifying their thinking.

 ~Honey Lady~


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## TVivian (Aug 17, 2014)

I almost started a topic like this awhile back when I went into a soap/body product store in San Luis Obispo Ca, during my summer vacation. It was a lovely and clearly successful store. The sales girl made tons of miracle claims about their products as did their labels and the owner behind the counter as she schooled a customer on their "natural and secret formulas". (Sorry for the run-on sentence) When I said I was just browsing I was reminded about how all of their products were "natural and 100% organic".. The back of the store housed their studio where I could clearly see the huge fragrance oil bottles from Crafters choice (not organic or natural) I could also see the metal drums of Pomace olive oil.. The same exact ones I buy from Smart and Final (also not organic). I desperately wanted to give them a piece of my mind but instead kept my mouth shut, but it's bugged me ever since. 
... so yes people will say whatever they want and customers will buy it. 

I think I feel better after this rant


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## CanaDawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Of course, it's not natural for pig fat or plant oils to be taken out of the pig or the plant, either.    I agree with DeeAnna's post.  The word is for the gullible when it comes to product labeling.


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## green soap (Aug 17, 2014)

I really dislike that question, when customers ask if my soap is 'natural'.  I don't want to say no, but I don't like using that word.  I tell them they are hand crafted cold process soaps.  

I try to guess what they might actually be asking.  Sometimes I tell them about the differences between CP soaps and commercial soaps (retained glycerin, soap rather than detergent, etc).  Sometimes I tell them about achieving different soap properties based on formulating with certain oils.  

Sometimes (I think) they are asking about scents and colors.  All my colors are from plant material, infusions or clays so I tell them that.  As far as scents I point them to my unscented bars or my all EO scent blends as opposed to the ones where I use FOs which are clearly labeled as 'fragrance' in the label.....explaining about steam distillation of different plants rather than fragrance oils that are made in a laboratory....and quite often they buy the ones with 'fragrance'!  But they came by my booth originally looking for a 'natural' soap?  Go figure.


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## dixiedragon (Aug 17, 2014)

Whether or not it's "legal", I think it's a lie to say soap is "all natural" if it contains artificial colors or fragrance. On another thread, the OP mentioned somebody who was selling King Cake scented soap, and claiming her soap was scented with natural essential oils.

If you buy a food that's all natural, but it turns out it was died with Red 50 and flavored with artificial vanilla, would you be okay with that?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 17, 2014)

I think my response to "is this all natural?" Would be "what do you mean by 'all natural'?" Then let the customer direct me to where their issues lie.

I imagine it is often just something that they think would be better with no real reasoning why


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## pamielynn (Aug 17, 2014)

Yes, it is best to ask a customer what their idea of natural means. Most don't even know. I hear all the time about's LU$!!'s "natural products". Uh huh. So you need to find out what the customer is after: no detergent, no SLS, no fragrance or just really good marketing.

My customers really just seem to like how their skins feels by using my soap and don't give a rat's behind about "natural" - especially since most of them are just obsessed with scents.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 17, 2014)

I think there's a difference between a customer asking about "natural" and the maker using "natural" to describe his/her products. The customer can ask anything, and some of you have shared really good ways to handle this question -- I've filed away a few for future reference. 

On the other hand, the maker using the word on the label or in advertising ... whole nuther deal. I personally would not use the word in relationship to soap, regardless of FO, EO, artificial color, natural color, or whatever. Natural, eco, organic, oh, and let's not forget chemical-free are terms that are so overused they've become meaningless.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 17, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> I think there's a difference between a customer asking about "natural" and the maker using "natural" to describe his/her products. The customer can ask anything, and some of you have shared really good ways to handle this question -- I've filed away a few for future reference.
> 
> On the other hand, the maker using the word on the label or in advertising ... whole nuther deal. I personally would not use the word in relationship to soap, regardless of FO, EO, artificial color, natural color, or whatever. Natural, eco, organic, oh, and let's not forget chemical-free are terms that are so overused they've become meaningless.



Once again, DeeAnna, your logic and good analysis of the variables makes absolute sense to me, and fits with what I would have said, could I put things together so succinctly.


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## Dorymae (Aug 17, 2014)

dixiedragon said:


> Whether or not it's "legal", I think it's a lie to say soap is "all natural" if it contains artificial colors or fragrance. On another thread, the OP mentioned somebody who was selling King Cake scented soap, and claiming her soap was scented with natural essential oils.
> 
> If you buy a food that's all natural, but it turns out it was died with Red 50 and flavored with artificial vanilla, would you be okay with that?




If you use the actual definition of natural and you call your unscented and uncolored soap natural you are lying.  When was the last time you saw a coconut oil tree? A olive oil tree?  Olive oil and coconut oil are not natural according to the true definition.  Coconut oil does not occur in nature - a person must press it and clean it before it is what you use.

So in my opinion if one would poo poo someone for any claim of natural then they better not use it themselves.  (Remember people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.)


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## LuckyStar (Aug 17, 2014)

I've really thought of natural in the same regard to "Tarns fat free" or "whole wheat" , in most cases they are just buzz words for label appeal.

The thing that bugs me more so is that people assume all natural is automatically better. What would be a better, a castile soap scented with 5% clove oil with poison oak on top, or a castile soap scented with 5%fragrance oil and glitter on top?  The former would be 'all natural' the latter 'full of chemicals'


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## CanaDawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> If you use the actual definition of natural



I'd like to see what that would be.  Is it defined somewhere legally?
Mirriam-Webster says "
*1nat·u·ral*

_adjective_ \ˈna-chə-rəl, ˈnach-rəl\                                                                                                                                                                                                                   : existing in nature and not made or caused by people : coming from nature
: not having any extra substances or chemicals added : not containing anything artificial
: usual or expected"


so we're using the first two definitions in this discussion so far, but I think most of us are aware that a) they are not entirely synonymous and b) the word has additional nuance when used in marketing and in some people's thinking (as pointed out re the natural poison oak vs the artificial FO)


Is there a more precise legal definition for the purpose of labeling?


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## Lindy (Aug 17, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> If you use the actual definition of natural and you call your unscented and uncolored soap natural you are lying. When was the last time you saw a coconut oil tree? A olive oil tree? Olive oil and coconut oil are not natural according to the true definition. Coconut oil does not occur in nature - a person must press it and clean it before it is what you use.
> 
> So in my opinion if one would poo poo someone for any claim of natural then they better not use it themselves. (Remember people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.)



According to that way of thinking essential oils aren't natural either. Yes there is some production to obtain it yes, same as butter, you have to make it from heavy cream.  It does not occur naturally and yet it is a natural food.


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## girlishcharm2004 (Aug 17, 2014)

If you want to get very technical, even detergents are "natural" because the chemist had to use something from nature and alter it to get the final product. E.g. Sodium laurel sulfate is derived from coconuts -- totally natural! I understand that even essential oils used in the wrong amounts can be harmful and therefore "natural" does not inherently mean safe. However, that being said, I market to people who have various skin conditions and my safely-used essential oils and colorants made from juices and clays have been received very well. I'm proud of the quality soap I make and boast about it in my labeling. Saying "all natural" maybe over used and meaningless, but I don't really know how else to describe the quality. Those lab created fragrances and dyes are harmful to some people. Honestly, I'd consider my kitchen a lab because I create soap and bread, but like I said, I'm not sure how else to describe the quality.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 17, 2014)

"non-synthetic" is probably technically more correct.  And things derived from natural things aren't natural in many cases...I always question labels that tell me something is "derived from coconut" because I know SLS is just that....it is NOT natural, nor is it a particularly pleasant synthetic, although the initial ingredient may have been.  Butter requires only a physical effect to be created from milkfat, not a chemical alteration to a different substance - it is still milkfat and milk protien which basically remain unchanged molecularly and simply changed in distribution.

I'm guessing you are marketing to a group that would welcome the phrase "all-natural" without much question.

If you understand how "natural" doesn't equate to many of the words people then go on to use (hypoallergenic, safe, organic, nonsynthetic, healthy) which may or may not be accurate, even if "natural" is.  Further, it is impossible to prove a negative....so stating that something is not harmful can only be done imprecisely at best, by showing there is an acceptable risk (ie almost no one will react negatively so the vast majority of the time the substance will do nothing bad) vs showing harm (which is an event, not a non-event, and can therefore be demonstrated or surveyed)  A "safely used" essential oil will not be safe for someone with an allergy to it, no matter how pure and natural and non-synthetic it may be.  

Complicated?  It can be, for some.  But this is the very point..."natural" doesn't mean what it means in marketing, and many people have assigned other or additional meanings beyond the actual definition.  Going with the colloquial meaning is easier in many situations...until you want to be precise.


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## Lindy (Aug 17, 2014)

Actually CanaDawn Hypoallergenic is a medical claim...


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## CanaDawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Actually CanaDawn Hypoallergenic is a medical claim...



*shrug* doesn't change my point, people think about the properties of hypoallergenicity when they think "natural".  I wasn't referring to labeling laws, but of how people embellish the meaning of the word "natural" to mean things it doesn't mean at all.


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## Dorymae (Aug 17, 2014)

Lindy said:


> According to that way of thinking essential oils aren't natural either. Yes there is some production to obtain it yes, same as butter, you have to make it from heavy cream.  It does not occur naturally and yet it is a natural food.



Exactly my point!



> I'd like to see what that would be.  Is it defined somewhere legally?
> Mirriam-Webster says "
> *1nat·u·ral*
> 
> ...


Yes the dictionary definition is to which I was referring.  
No there is no legal definition for labeling which is the problem.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> If you use the actual definition of natural and you call your unscented and uncolored soap natural you are lying.  When was the last time you saw a coconut oil tree? A olive oil tree?  Olive oil and coconut oil are not natural according to the true definition.  Coconut oil does not occur in nature - a person must press it and clean it before it is what you use.



Coconut oil DOES occur in nature.  It is within the coconut or you would not be able to collect it.  Olive oil occurs in nature, within the olive.

If the oil has nothing added but is collected in one place, it is still natural by the definition you agreed we were using...it is coming from nature, and contains nothing artificial.

You've likely noticed the use of words like "refined" on butters or oils to signify they are NOT as they occur in nature.

We can focus this down to such a degree as to be meaningless in the opposite direction from the vague general use of it under discussion.  The point remains that the word "natural" when used in marketing has all but lost meaning, and in place of the original meaning, vendors and buyers have substituted many other meanings and interpretations.  Since it isn't a regulated word like "organic" is, both the buyer and the seller need to reach a happy consensus about what they feel "natural" means, and all is well.  If neither party is unhappy with their assumptions or discussions and the outcome in terms of definition, no laws have been breached, and no one need feel misled.

As always, asking questions before purchasing is a good idea.  Caveat emptor and all that.


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## Lindy (Aug 17, 2014)

Doymae - essential oils are natural, butter is natural, coconut oil is natural, do you see where I am going with this?  If you were to make a soap that was coloured with clay or botanicals and scented with essential oils it is a natural product just not 100% natural, more like 95% which to the mind of the consumer is Natural....


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## Dorymae (Aug 17, 2014)

You can call anything natural.....if you want to call minimally processed things natural you can.  I will not argue with you on what you can call natural - the word natural in labeling means nothing, or anything that the manufacturer wants it to.

As far as the consumer goes, I have found people each have their own definition.  Some care about color and fragrance some don't - even when they want "natural".  I hand them my soap when they say they want "natural soap" and say this is my ingredients list..., and let them read the label.  I don't claim natural because it means nothing at all to me.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> You can call anything natural.....if you want to call minimally processed things natural you can.  I will not argue with you on what you can call natural - the word natural in labeling means nothing, or anything that the manufacturer wants it to..



Exactly.


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## Lindy (Aug 17, 2014)

I don't call my products natural, but what I was pointing out that if you are using EO's, Clay for colour then the only unnatural part of your soap is Lye.  If someone wanted to call that soap natural I don't have a problem with that.  It's when they get into micas and FO's that I have a problem with someone calling their soap natural....

 Just saying my opinion.  As I said my labels do not say natural.  But I am sure not going to stand in judgement of someone who is calling their soap natural if they are not using FO's or Micas.....


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## Dorymae (Aug 17, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I don't call my products natural, but what I was pointing out that if you are using EO's, Clay for colour then the only unnatural part of your soap is Lye.  If someone wanted to call that soap natural I don't have a problem with that.  It's when they get into micas and FO's that I have a problem with someone calling their soap natural....
> 
> Just saying my opinion.  As I said my labels do not say natural.  But I am sure not going to stand in judgement of someone who is calling their soap natural if they are not using FO's or Micas.....




Lye is not unnatural, by your own definition it occurs in nature...and without mans help.  What if someone called a soap natural with micas?  You would really think that is unnatural?  

See this is where the lines get blurred.  Too blurred for me to pass judgement on anyone.  At best I think people are misinformed about "natural" that is why I don't use the word, but I do understand the use of it in marketing.  I guess it only bothers me when someone uses it KNOWING that it is deceiving to their customers.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 17, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> Lye is not unnatural, by your own definition it occurs in nature...and without mans help.  What if someone called a soap natural with micas?  You would really think that is unnatural?



Well, there's this: "mica is a natural product, that is mined but then, the individual mica  (which looks like a platelet) is coated with FD&C colorants, or  pigments, or a combination of both to achieve the colorant."


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## Lindy (Aug 17, 2014)

Actually mica these days as in what we use in our products is no longer natural but rather created in the full chemically.  The lye we use is not natural, it too is created from the whole cloth of chemicals in a lab.

 I don't see the lines being blurred, there are very black & white, however like I said I don't stand in judgement and in fact if someone is making the product entirely from natural substances *except* the lye I have even less problem with that.

 Something we should remember is it is marketing that will determine how successful we are.  There is a soapmaker here in town that calls herself the Natural Soap Lady, I have no problem with that at all...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 18, 2014)

Lindy makes a good point here - even if something IS found in nature, has the person used the natural version?  Lye can be found naturally - but is YOUR product natural?  If you buy your lye, then it is almost certainly not naturally occuring lye.  Olive oil is naturally occuring.  EVOO is just made from pressing olives.  But pomace oil is chemical extracted, making it rather unnatural olive oil indeed.

I think what we can see from this is that using "natural" can put us in to the realms of Snake Oil sales people, which might work on the punters and get us a quick buck, but is that where you want to be?  I will never use this term in marketing, and will always think that those who do are either uneducated and therefore potentially dangerous soap sellers or they are willfully misleading people, in which case they are charletans and beneath contempt.


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## scotsman (Aug 18, 2014)

There's also micas, which many of us use to color our soaps. While micas do occur in nature, and would color our creations quite nicely, the ones we buy from our suppliers are lab-created. The reason for this is purity. Lab-created micas are more pure than those occurring in nature. Some "natural" micas contain potentially harmful trace elements. Whether or not they are actually harmful at the minimal levels used for coloring is probably a matter for debate but I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to make a cogent argument on either side of the issue. I dig some of the lab created colors and use them freely. I also use what many call "natural" colorants like turmeric, alkanet root, etc. As far as using the word "natural" or any variant thereof, I don't...either on my packaging or when discussing my soap with customers. I list all my ingredients in an easily understandable format(in keeping with standard naming format) and am completely honest and forthcoming about my product and any ingredients used in its manufacture. I'm proud of what I make and have nothing to hide so I don't feel like its necessary for me to stand behind labels like "natural" or "organic". I like to let my product speak for itself, and if necessary, am always happy and eager to answer questions or even explain some of the science behind making soap. I must admit that I get a bit giddy when somebody shows an interest in the scientific side of things. I've always been a bit of a chemistry nerd and enjoy talking about it with people who's eyes don't immediately glass over when you mention the word molecule, lol! I'm the same way with cooking. I've studied at length the molecular processes at work behind many of my favorite recipes and cooking techniques. Yeah I know, I'm a big dork, lol!


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## scotsman (Aug 18, 2014)

On a side note, I realized that I mentioned that I stay away from the word organic. For those of you that do use the term please don't think that I am denegrading it in any way. I have to problems with people who use the term on their packaging or otherwise. My decision to not use it at all is personal and mostly from my own nerdy science standpoint. I think the term is way overused and not at all in keeping with the original definition of the term, which hails from science, as in organic/inorganic...or containing carbon atoms/not containing carbon atoms. Yes, I can almost hear the collective groans, lol! I think the other science and chemistry buffs on here, if not in agreement, will at least understand where I'm coming from with this one...even if it is a bit from left field


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## scotsman (Aug 18, 2014)

On a side note, I would love to see a dedicated category on this forum for people to post threads explaining the scientific side of our craft for those who are interested in learning more about it...especially since we have some serious chemistry geniuses here on this forum. Now mind you, I don't include myself in that group. I'm no science scholar...more of a weekend warrior as it were, lol! Ok, I really must try to get to bed. I drank a couple energy drinks tonight to stay awake through the monotony of late-night weekly inventory at work and they still have me so wired you'd think I was coming off a cocaine bender. If I don't get to sleep soon I'll end up making soap and irritating my family, lmao! Goodnight, er, morning everybody


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 18, 2014)

Organic is another interesting one.  If organic oils are used, are the scents also organic?  Is the lye?  Even then, when these organic oils are saponified, are they then still organic as they have undergone a hefty change in to something else.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 18, 2014)

scotsman said:


> There's also micas, which many of us use to color our soaps. While micas do occur in nature, and would color our creations quite nicely, the ones we buy from our suppliers are lab-created. The reason for this is purity. Lab-created micas are more pure than those occurring in nature. Some "natural" micas contain potentially harmful trace elements.



The reason for the dyes and pigments on lab mica is more likely colour variety and brilliance.  I've seen micas in very VERY unnatural shades! Some of the dyes are probably as potentially harmful as the trace elements  I doubt they are "more pure" <--there's another overused, under-defined word.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 18, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Organic is another interesting one.  If organic oils are used, are the scents also organic?  Is the lye?  Even then, when these organic oils are saponified, are they then still organic as they have undergone a hefty change in to something else.



In order to be labeled organic, there are requirements set out by the governing body (often the agriculture or food admin) that have to be met.  So...if those are met, the product can be sold as organic.  That one is pretty straightforward, and is regulated, unlike the term "natural".

We can, as with anything, batter it to death but it is probably counter productive.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 18, 2014)

True! It does make me wonder why some soapers look to use organic oils for soaping, though


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## CanaDawn (Aug 18, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> True! It does make me wonder why some soapers look to use organic oils for soaping, though



To avoid pesticide residues, and solvent residues, I would assume.  Since the level of organics has to be 95% or more, organic oils would be fairly important in being able to label organic, too.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 18, 2014)

But as lye makes up more than 5% of a recipe, it can never happen. 

I would be interested to see any information someone has on how much bad stuff gets in to the oils in the first step and then ends up in the soap as a second step, though. I hadn't thought about that side of things


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## CanaDawn (Aug 18, 2014)

http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalv.../a-few-words-about-organic-soaps-and-shampoos  seems fairly comprehensive on the topic


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 18, 2014)

But by their rational, if there is no non-organic lye left in the soap at the end, there is also no organic oil left over, apart from the superfat - if the superfat is 95% or more, then call it organic!

Their info on Europe is also flawed - there is no lye in the ingredients, but then when you look at the labels, it has the saponified names of the oils (potassium tallowate, for example) which I don't think can be called organic.

I'm not here to fight about how someone can label it organic, but rather is there actually any point in using organic oils - is there a demonstrable difference in the soap itself?


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## CanaDawn (Aug 18, 2014)

Well, the labeling is regulated, so fighting would be just a brawl for the sake of it...the regulations are what allows it to be labeled according to the country.

Again, people wish to avoid pesticide and solvent residue, and whether or not that has an appreciable effect or reduces any risk aren't really the point for some.  Also not something I want to debate, because I think organic labeling is adequate when it meets or exceeds legislated requirements, and from there consumers can make their own minds up about what they believe is best for them. 

As far as residues in oils, a search on PubMed would get you started.


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## green soap (Aug 18, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> .....
> I'm not here to fight about how someone can label it organic, but rather is there actually any point in using organic oils - is there a demonstrable difference in the soap itself?



I use organic African shea and cocoa butter, not for fear of residues, but hoping that organically produced oils would be better in terms of environmental practices and human right abuses (child labor, etc).  My other oils are not organic and I do not label my soaps as overall organic - just those two butters.  If I was to use palm oil I would also buy organic (same reasoning) but I have not found a need for palm oil as far as formulating soap recipes.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 18, 2014)

green soap said:


> I use organic African shea and cocoa butter, not for fear of residues, but hoping that organically produced oils would be better in terms of environmental practices and human right abuses (child labor, etc).  My other oils are not organic and I do not label my soaps as overall organic - just those two butters.  If I was to use palm oil I would also buy organic (same reasoning) but I have not found a need for palm oil as far as formulating soap recipes.



I would also assume lower environmental impact, at least from chemical applications, but fair trade butters would do more to assure you there was better human rights awareness than organic does, I would think.

Personally I would want sustainably produced palm oil if I ever used it - the reason to avoid it for me is the damage to orangutan (etc) habitat.


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## new12soap (Aug 18, 2014)

"Organic" does not mean pesticide free. Organic farmers use pesticides all the time. There are very strict guidelines about which ones they can and can't use, but because organic pesticides aren't as effective as traditional methods they often must use up to three times as much. Yes, the term is regulated (unlike "natural") very specifically, but like anything else it isn't a perfect system.


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## PuddinAndPeanuts (Aug 18, 2014)

I know this isn't a popular viewpoint here, but here goes...  'Natural' has no set definition, except that which I or my customers give it. (I sell body butter and sugar scrubs- clearly I'm nowhere near ready to sell soap yet!). I make products with fragrance oil and various (often refined) butters and oils, no colors in those products.  I label my ingredients by saying: "this product contains fragrance oil and the following natural ingredients:"... This meets MY definition of natural, and more importantly, what I believe my customers have in mind when they say natural.  I can certainly see where it might not meet someone else's definition of natural, but it does fit mine.  Is it legal?  Yup.  Is it misleading?  I truly don't believe so- for what *most* people have in mind when they think of what nAtural means.  But- I will say this too- after reading this thread, I am going to try to find the time to do a little research on what 'refined' actually means.  While 'natural' may have no legal meaning, I do want to stay true to my own definition of that word.  I will also say this- for a word with no real meaning, it brings a heck of a lot of label appeal.  My sales would be significantly impacted if I removed it. So if for instance I decide (after further research) that calling a refined butter natural is misleading, I will in all probability switch to a nonrefined version of that butter, or perhaps reword my label to say xx% natural...  Like I said, I know mine is not a popular viewpoint, but it is another way of looking at the issue.  Hope like heck I haven't offended anyone...


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## CanaDawn (Aug 18, 2014)

your point of view pretty much echoes several in the thread, so I'm not sure you need to be so concerned.


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## Lindy (Aug 18, 2014)

We're all entitled to have our own viewpoint and sometimes it is hard to stand up and say I don't agree and stay respectful.  Well done!


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## PuddinAndPeanuts (Aug 18, 2014)

Thanks, CanaDawn and Lindy.  It seemed to me like my thoughts bucked the prevailing opinion, so I was a bit nervous posting that...


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## Lindy (Aug 18, 2014)

I know that happens now and then, but don't let that deter from speaking your truth


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 19, 2014)

PuddinAndPeanuts said:


> I know this isn't a popular viewpoint here, but here goes... 'Natural' has no set definition, except that which I or my customers give it. (I sell body butter and sugar scrubs- clearly I'm nowhere near ready to sell soap yet!). I make products with fragrance oil and various (often refined) butters and oils, no colors in those products. I label my ingredients by saying: "this product contains fragrance oil and the following natural ingredients:"... This meets MY definition of natural, and more importantly, what I believe my customers have in mind when they say natural. I can certainly see where it might not meet someone else's definition of natural, but it does fit mine. Is it legal? Yup. Is it misleading? I truly don't believe so- for what *most* people have in mind when they think of what nAtural means. But- I will say this too- after reading this thread, I am going to try to find the time to do a little research on what 'refined' actually means. While 'natural' may have no legal meaning, I do want to stay true to my own definition of that word. I will also say this- for a word with no real meaning, it brings a heck of a lot of label appeal. My sales would be significantly impacted if I removed it. So if for instance I decide (after further research) that calling a refined butter natural is misleading, I will in all probability switch to a nonrefined version of that butter, or perhaps reword my label to say xx% natural... Like I said, I know mine is not a popular viewpoint, but it is another way of looking at the issue. Hope like heck I haven't offended anyone...


 
Not offended, but as I said earlier I think that it is misleading as you are assuming that what you and your customer thinks is the same thing. If they think it means unprocessed in any way, then the refined oils and maybe the sugar are then outside of their scope of natural - unless when you go on to list like "this product contains fragrance oil and the following natural ingredients: Refined sugar, cocoa butter, refined shea butter..............."


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 19, 2014)

Here is an extract from this site (http://blog.sejalvora.com/2010/10/25/the-truth-about-refined-cooking-oil/):

*Refining: *
Oil refining is a process where crude oils; i.e. natural oils from vegetables are refined to remove any substances that may contribute to off flavor, off odor, undesirable color, or for keeping standardization, and standardization is required because if 100 million tons are being sold, there would be chaos at the supermarket if every bottle would be different in color and clarity as it is naturally supposed to be.

*Step 1:* “Washing” of oil using water, salts and acids in order to remove waxes, phosphates and other impurities.

*Step 2: *Oil undergoes a neutralization process. Alkali which is soap mixed with oil and heated to 180F. A separator then removes the soap from the oil.

*Step 3:* The oil is subjected to “physical” refinement to remove odor compounds by vacuum steam distillation process.

*Step 4:* Next the oil is subjected to cooling. By doing this, some fats will crystallize and are removed using filtration.

*Step 5:* The oil is then bleached. This process stabilized the oil. Bleaching involves using clay to remove color and impurities from the oil. Oil is bleached by heating it to 130F, and mixing with clay. The mixture is held for several minutes and then the hot oil is filtered from the clay and cooled.

*Step 6:* Hydrogenation process is completed by pumping pressurized hydrogen into an agitated tank filled with oil. This must be done in the presence of a catalyst metal, such as nickel. Hydrogenation is done at 204C and pressure of 60psig.


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## wetshavingproducts (Aug 19, 2014)

Honestly, I feel as though it's just a marketing term with no real meaning.

But since most people draw the line at man made chemicals, that seems to be a logical cutoff. And even though lye is a processed chemical these days, I don't think the general public thinks of it as a chemical when used in soap.


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## Kyra (Aug 19, 2014)

I do share your point of view, PuddinAndPeanuts! Thanks for writing this. In my part of the world "natural soap" is generally referred to handmade soap made with lye and oils. This is how the general public searches for it, this is what they ask for, this is what they want to buy. They know it is not 100% natural and they do not care for the dictionary definition of the word "natural". If I were to take that word out of my marketing, I would be lumped together with the "detergent making industry" and I would pretty much go out of business. Too much hype around this word, I am sure our customers are smart enough to know what they are buying by just reading the ingredients on the label, but at least where I live, this is what they call this type of soap, plain and simple.





PuddinAndPeanuts said:


> I know this isn't a popular viewpoint here, but here goes...  'Natural' has no set definition, except that which I or my customers give it. (I sell body butter and sugar scrubs- clearly I'm nowhere near ready to sell soap yet!). I make products with fragrance oil and various (often refined) butters and oils, no colors in those products.  I label my ingredients by saying: "this product contains fragrance oil and the following natural ingredients:"... This meets MY definition of natural, and more importantly, what I believe my customers have in mind when they say natural.  I can certainly see where it might not meet someone else's definition of natural, but it does fit mine.  Is it legal?  Yup.  Is it misleading?  I truly don't believe so- for what *most* people have in mind when they think of what nAtural means.  But- I will say this too- after reading this thread, I am going to try to find the time to do a little research on what 'refined' actually means.  While 'natural' may have no legal meaning, I do want to stay true to my own definition of that word.  I will also say this- for a word with no real meaning, it brings a heck of a lot of label appeal.  My sales would be significantly impacted if I removed it. So if for instance I decide (after further research) that calling a refined butter natural is misleading, I will in all probability switch to a nonrefined version of that butter, or perhaps reword my label to say xx% natural...  Like I said, I know mine is not a popular viewpoint, but it is another way of looking at the issue.  Hope like heck I haven't offended anyone...


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## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

The OP of this thread asked about marketing your soap as 100% natural.  It seems we all agree that we wouldn't market our soap or other products as that and Kyra makes a valid point.  If we were to compare ourselves to the Detergent Soaps then we are natural and that includes most M&P products because there are MP bases made without DPG.  There even organic bases using organic ingredients and MP is made very much like we make HP, including the clear since we can make that too.  Just saying, but it has me thinking a bit deeper and with a less prejudiced mind.


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## FGOriold (Aug 19, 2014)

While this relates to food, I find that the use of the word "natural" in both food and bath and body products are comparable.  

http://www.upworthy.com/how-we-are-fooling-ourselves-into-eating-all-natural-foods?c=tkp1


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## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

According to the US Cerified Organic can be applied to soap as long as it is 95 percent certified organic with the water removed from the calculations.  So people who make soaps with EO that are certified organic as well as the oils/butter then they can get certified as organic.  There is a lady in Ontario that has gone through this process and is Certified Organic.


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## Kyra (Aug 19, 2014)

I myself am looking into getting certified as organic for a part of my line of products, as the EU legislation allows me to, as long as a certain percentage of ingredients are proven to be organic. And I will sure put the certification on my label as soon as I get it!!  Quite a few small manufacturers do and I don't see anything wrong with it.. just the costs of all the lab testing involved and the many audits that will follow loool


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## CanaDawn (Aug 19, 2014)

Lindy said:


> According to the US Cerified Organic can be applied to soap as long as it is 95 percent certified organic with the water removed from the calculations.  So people who make soaps with EO that are certified organic as well as the oils/butter then they can get certified as organic.  There is a lady in Ontario that has gone through this process and is Certified Organic.



TEG mentioned that lye made up more than 5% of the batch, so how would that be dealt with?


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## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

Because there is no lye left in the finished product my understanding is you're okay...


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## CanaDawn (Aug 19, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Because there is no lye left in the finished product my understanding is you're okay...



That would be my thought on it too.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

But as there are also no organic oils left, as there is no lye left, then YOU must make your product in the way that ensures the organic label, rather than the ingredients that we put in if we are accepting that the ingredients aren't actually in the soap.  We cannot say that there is no lye in the finished soap and then turn around and say that I made it with organic oils - it just makes no logical sense at all.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But as there are also no organic oils left, as there is no lye left, then YOU must make your product in the way that ensures the organic label, rather than the ingredients that we put in if we are accepting that the ingredients aren't actually in the soap.  We cannot say that there is no lye in the finished soap and then turn around and say that I made it with organic oils - it just makes no logical sense at all.



It does if we look at what is meant by organic for the purpose of labeling, and we discover that KOH and NaOH are on the list of allowable synthetics. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...ext&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7&idno=7#se7.3.205_1605 

Regardless, you DID make it with organic oils, and thus at the very  minimum it is said to be "made with organic ingredients" which isn't  even necessary as soap can definitely be labelled organic under USDA  regulations.

Summed up by wiki as: "Products made entirely with certified organic ingredients and methods can be labeled "*100% organic*," while only products with at least 95% organic ingredients may be labeled "*organic*." Both of these categories may also display the *USDA Organic* seal. A third category, containing a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, can be labeled "*made with organic ingredients*,"  but may not display the USDA Organic seal. In addition, products may  also display the logo of the certification body that approved them. Products made with less than 70% organic ingredients can not be  advertised as "organic," but can list individual ingredients that are  organic as such in the product's ingredient statement.
 In the U.S., the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990 "requires the Secretary of Agriculture  to establish a National List of Allowed and Prohibited Substances which  identifies synthetic substances that may be used, and the nonsynthetic  substances that cannot be used, in organic production and handling  operations."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification#cite_note-10"


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

I stand corrected.

That does make for some interesting reading, though, and highlights the disparity between what many might *think* organic means and what it actually means.  Organic peach pie made with peaches that have been peeled using lye?  Yum.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I stand corrected.
> 
> That does make for some interesting reading, though, and highlights the disparity between what many might *think* organic means and what it actually means.  Organic peach pie made with peaches that have been peeled using lye?  Yum.



No.  It specifically prohibits use of lye for that purpose.  "Sodium hydroxide—prohibited for use in lye peeling of fruits and vegetables. "  ETA I see that KOH is allowed.  But again, I say, so what?  We put product that once used lye on our faces.  That does NOT mean there is lye IN the peaches.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

But not potassium hydroxide, dear girl


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

Please don't refer to me as "dear girl".  Thanks.  

I did note my error.

Yes, what is allowed might come as a surprise, however what is allowed is specifically and publicly available, so there is no need to speculate on whether or not lye in soaps means it is or it isn't organic for the purposes of labeling in the USA (and similar lists are available for all certification boards).  So.  If you want to debate whether or not it's organic enough _for you_, that's an entirely different conversation I don't wish to engage in.  If you need to know if something can legally be labeled or described as organic, that's pretty straightforward, and won't require any speculation.


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## Lindy (Aug 20, 2014)

Did you know that most pretzel recipes call for lye (NaOH)?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

I won't in future.  I apologise for the offense.

You did note your error, but after I had posted.

Personally, I don't know how much of it is worthwhile or not.  I am not a person who buys organic items and this has never been my point.  My point has always been about what *customers* *think*.  If a customer was eating that organic peach pie and you said to them that it had been peeled with KOH, what do you think their reaction would be?  I'm not saying that there is still lye in it (though the process for caustic peeling generally doesn't sound great) and so the "so what?" is this thread started off in a direction about the word natural and how it can be misleading and is not regulated, but a regulated word can also be misleading, as I am sure many people who do want to eat organically might well be concerned about some of the items on that list, but don't think to look for such a list as it doesn't occur to them that their peaches were peeled in KOH.  Regardless of if they should check for such a list, or if there is anything wrong with peaches being peeled in lye or not.  It is about selling something to the customer that is not what they actually expect it to be, regardless of whether or not it is allowable to do so.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Did you know that most pretzel recipes call for lye (NaOH)?


 
I do indeed.  In fact, only the other day I was eating bread that The Admirable Lady had baked - with lye splashed over the top of it before baking.

As I said in the post above, it is not about me and my view of lye in food and so on, but about what customers assume and what they actually get.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> As I said in the post above, it is not about me and my view of lye in food and so on, but about what customers assume and what they actually get.



Caveat emptor.  If someone is making purchasing decisions based on assumptions they have not researched even a little, there is nothing that can be done. The regulations are clear and public.

Vendors are responsible for labeling legally according to the clear and public requirements, but are NOT responsible for consumer assumptions (although they may wish to educate their clients - it is certainly not their responsibility to do so)


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## Lindy (Aug 20, 2014)

My understanding of EU labeling is you don't list lye in your ingredients as it is no longer present.... so they are getting a product with no lye.  It is the same here in Canada.  Health Canada states that you list everything *except* chemicals that were used to create the product and have been used up in the chemical reaction.  I'm paraphrasing...


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

Lindy said:


> My understanding of EU labeling is you don't list lye in your ingredients as it is no longer present.... so they are getting a product with no lye.  It is the same here in Canada.  Health Canada states that you list everything *except* chemicals that were used to create the product and have been used up in the chemical reaction.  I'm paraphrasing...



And it doesn't matter anyhow, as lye is allowed within organic standards.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

Indeed, in many cases it is not in the interests of the company to do so.  

But this is also why I wouldn't use terms like natural or organic and if anyone ever asks my why they aren't natural or organic, I will explain it to them.  When it comes to these terms, Illitteratus Emptor is my assumption.  Do I want to cash in on their ignorance......................?  Personally, no.


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## HoneyLady (Aug 20, 2014)

So the bottom line is : TALK to your customer! "I get asked this question about natural ALL the time!  Tell me what that means to YOU?" {with a big smile.}

 USDA Organic, Certified Organic, and Oregon Tilth are some of the biggies in the US.  They don't all cover the same products, and their definitions vary.  They also leave a lot of territory open by what they don't cover.

 Instances from other categories besides soap that *I* deal with just to give you an idea of how crazy this can be:
 HONEY
 To acquire a USDA Organic label, I have to prove that ALL the forage in range of my hives is managed according to USDA standards.  Since bees fly in a 6 mile radius, that means I have to certify 12 square miles {THOUSANDS of acres} as organic.  HOWEVER -- if honey is imported to the US, and *claims* to be organic, the USDA will certify it WITHOUT testing, because they have no jurisdiction in other countries, and cannot prove or disprove whether it meets their standards.  I know of only *2* honey producers in the US who actually qualify for USDA, one in Hawaii, and one on the Olympic Peninsula of WA.  Over 2 million pounds of New Zealand "Manuka" honey are sold around the world every year.  But only about 1.2 million are actually produced.  Hmmm.  RAW Honey.  People usually mean "Pasteurized" when they ask about this, but don't realize it.  Honey is NOT required to be pasteurized as it is anaerobic, and does not support microbial growth.  Most people would not eat truly raw honey.  That is honey as it comes out of the hive, period.  Wax bits, leaves, bee parts, honey etc.  "Filtered" means pushed through a micro fine filter, removing some or all of the pollens.  "Strained" is what I do -- dripped through mesh similar to hosiery size that removes wax, leaves, bee parts, etc.  But it WILL "sugar up", which is natural, not spoilage.  If your honey doesn't sugar, it either has been super filtered and pasteurized, and/or had HFCS added.  {Illegal in the US unless clearly labeled so, supposedly.}

 SOY WAX
 The USDA, does NOT, nor does anyone else, certify WAX as organic.  If you see that, it's been mislabeled.  There is no such animal.  Vegetable OILS can be organic . . . Only about 2% of the soy oil produced in the US is Organic, and/or non-GMO.  All of it goes into food.  Even if organic oil is used to make wax (highly doubtful) it cannot be labeled that way . . . but is.  Lack of enforcement, etc.  Hexanes are used to make oil into wax, and they are fairly potent chemicals, so even if the OIL was organic, it would be hard to call the wax organic.

 Organic does not just imply no INSECTICIDE use, it implies no HERBICIDE use.  And guess what?  Monsanto's Round Up CAN be used in organic applications.  It stays in the soil for over 2 years.  It kills bees and ladybugs and other good critters.  And it's just one of many in use.

*The point is, the terms mean little, and are often unregulated.  Define them for yourself so you can articulate them to your customer.  Most people mean well, but are subject to the same marketing we all are.* 

 Years after Jerry Seinfeld's truly awful "The Bee Movie", I still get people asking me quite sincerely if I smoke the bees or not since "it can give them lung cancer".  No, bees can't get lung cancer.  Yes, I smoke them since it confuses their sense of smell and calms them (by covering alarm pheromones.)  Since I live in south TX where Africanized Honey Bees {so called Killer Bees, which they are NOT} are common, smoke is a necessity, is standard practice, and has been for about 200 years at least. But people ask.

 Go forth and educate! 
 ~HoneyLady~


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Indeed, in many cases it is not in the interests of the company to do so.
> 
> But this is also why I wouldn't use terms like natural or organic and if anyone ever asks my why they aren't natural or organic, I will explain it to them.  When it comes to these terms, Illitteratus Emptor is my assumption.  Do I want to cash in on their ignorance......................?  Personally, no.



If you fulfill the requirements for organic labeling there is no reason at all to avoid it, because you aren't cashing in on ignorance, you've done the due diligence to earn the label.

Natural, on the other hand, has no legal standards or definition, and is a marketing term only.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

HoneyLady said:


> Organic does not just imply no INSECTICIDE use, it implies no HERBICIDE use.  And guess what?  Monsanto's Round Up CAN be used in organic applications.  It stays in the soil for over 2 years.  It kills bees and ladybugs and other good critters.  And it's just one of many in use.



http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/organicag/standards.html

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Many farmers can  transition certain sections of land (such as CRP) immediately into  certified organic status, if no synthetic chemicals (including Round-Up®  and fertilizers) have been applied for the previous three years."

"[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*CERTIFICATION-REQUIRED PRACTICES FOR CROPS*
        To sell a product as "organic" the crop must have been raised on  land to which no synthetic chemical (any fertilizers, herbicides,  insecticides or fungicides) inputs were applied for three years prior to  its harvest. In addition, no GMO crops are allowed in organic  production (e.g. Roundup-Ready® soybeans and Bt-corn®)."

Can you source something for me showing that Roundup is allowed??
[/FONT]


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## cmzaha (Aug 20, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Actually CanaDawn Hypoallergenic is a medical claim...


I hate the term Hypoallergenic as much as I hate the term Natural. There just is not a thing on this earth that is truly hypoallergenic. Someone will be allergic no matter what. Because a small group is tested and x amount do not react it becomes hypoallergenic. I leaned many moons ago, having a lot of severe allergies, not to take stock in haypoallergenic claims


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> If you fulfill the requirements for organic labeling there is no reason at all to avoid it, because you aren't cashing in on ignorance, you've done the due diligence to earn the label.......




If people are buying organic thinking it means something other than what it actually means, then I am benefiting from their ignorance. Within my rights, of course. 

Just because the lye is legally allowed to be synthetic, doesn't mean that customers would be happy with it if they actually researched


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

cmzaha said:


> I hate the term Hypoallergenic as much as I hate the term Natural. There just is not a thing on this earth that is truly hypoallergenic. Someone will be allergic no matter what. Because a small group is tested and x amount do not react it becomes hypoallergenic. I leaned many moons ago, having a lot of severe allergies, not to take stock in haypoallergenic claims



hypoallergenic = hypo means "low" not 'none' so the claim isn't that no one anywhere would be allergic, just that the product has a low relative risk of causing allergic reactions.  People with a lot of severe allergies have a high risk of reacting to a low allergenic product, but that doesn't negate the word.  However, I don't know that it has a medical or legal definition for the purpose of labeling.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> If people are buying organic thinking it means something other than what it actually means, then I am benefiting from their ignorance. Within my rights, of course.
> 
> Just because the lye is legally allowed to be synthetic, doesn't mean that customers would be happy with it if they actually researched



That path of logic leads to impossible conversation which doesn't change the regulations or the compliance requirements which exist for the label "organic".  Don't use it (although it sounds unlikely that you would or could), but don't make it into some cramped version of what it is, in regulations.  I personally think organic regulations are among the most open, common language ones around.  

Ignorance is not my responsibility. Using the term "Benefiting from it" as though that's somehow shady or underhanded overlooks that in order to use the term, the conditions must be met, whether or not the customer gets it.

People on the whole are underinformed, and full of opinions based on air, so I guess I'm not all that worked up if a few people buy properly organic labeled products without understanding precisely whether or not the synthetic lye is permissible.  I'm far more troubled by vendors using the term "organic" when they have NOT met the requirements that are clearly laid out for them.  That is misleading, illegal, and done solely to benefit the vendor, thus to me that is unethical, not the proper use of the label and subsequent sale to a certain percentage ignoramus buyers.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

If you infer a shady tone to the term "benefiting from it" that is entirely for you as it was not implied.  If people are buying a product because of the certification then the seller is benefiting from it, regardless of the awareness of the customer as to what the certification actually means.  In some cases you are benefiting from a customers informed choice, some times from their ignorance.  That is just the way that it is.

I actually get turned off by the terms "organic" and "natural" when I come to buy things, mainly because of these issues with what is and isn't allowed within that scope.  Coupled with the fact, as you point out, that some people use it regardless of if they are actually accredited or not, just lowers the value of the added premium on such products for me as a consumer.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

As an educated consumer, you would know that any certification is worth verifying.  

But of course, you are entitled as a consumer to have your own opinions and decisions, but not your own facts.    There IS a legislated meaning to "certified organic" but not to "natural", and the facts around the certification ARE available and verifiable.  Choosing not to verify or choosing not to choose is up to the consumer, ignorant or not.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

I fail to see where I am trying to have my own facts there. If you'd like to clarify I'd appreciate that. But I feel that we are not going to see eye to eye on this, such is the way with opinions and folks with different strokes, so I understand if you don't want to do so.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I fail to see where I am trying to have my own facts there. If you'd like to clarify I'd appreciate that. But I feel that we are not going to see eye to eye on this, such is the way with opinions and folks with different strokes, so I understand if you don't want to do so.



I did.  Organic is legislated, natural is not.  One has clear requirements, the other is used to mean anything at all. 

You said: " My point has always been about what *customers* *think*."  That could be....but thinking something that isn't a fact doesn't make it a fact, even if it is thunk very hard, and even if someone makes decisions using that non-fact and states it firmly.  Hence "You don't get your own facts" - You are still talking marketing, I think, which is about perceptions at the consumer level.  That's where the divide between "organic" and natural, but I have stated it now so many times, so many ways that I'm all done trying to make a point you don't wish to have made.

There is also the struggle with the English pronoun "you" used as a generality although I assumed my reference to consumer would have meant some clarity there, as you (TEG) would be the vendor of soap to the consumers we have been discussing, no? Perhaps I could have clarified via different grammar; I should have done better there.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 20, 2014)

Much clearer, thank you. 

While of course it is a fact that a product meets a government standard and is therefore accepted by the government as 'organic', the standard might not be high enough for some people.


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## HoneyLady (Aug 20, 2014)

Cana, the quote you listed is from the Iowa State Extension Service -- part of, but not the same as USDA.  Overseen by them, but states have their own Ag Depts. that can accept or reject USDA mandates.  My info came from personal discussions with some folks at USDA in DC.  Round Up is an "organo-phosphate" and as such, falls under the "who is reading the reg and interpreting it" caveat.  California is a whole 'nuther planet.

 There has been discussion off and on for some time re Round Up being removed from approved lists.  But, Monsanto is a BIG contributor of funds.  And the USDA is as perennially underfunded as any other agency.  USDA told me that they (and the EPA) accept company funded safety studies until there are enough complaints, and/or the USDA gets around to running their own safety tests.  That's why Monsanto says Round Up is "non-toxic" to bees -- only half the bees died in their tests, not all of them.  

 I can tell you from experience, having a hive near a field of RU Ready soybeans, that they don't spot spray -- they drive rigs up and down the rows spraying every square inch, at least 2x per growing season. That's the point of the RU Ready GMOs.  They can withstand the repeated applications of RU.  And if they spray during bloom, it will take down a strong hive within 3 days.  And RU is an herbicide -- NOT a pesticide like Malathion, or Sevin.

 This sort of illogic goes both ways.  I remember as a young teenager hearing about hair dye causing cancer.  Oh, the uproar.  It turned out you would have to *drink* 2-4 bottles a day to replicate the lab results in humans.  I'd rather have coffee.  It takes the ingestion of 1 castor bean to kill a child, 2-4 to kill an adult, and about 80-90 to kill a duck. :?: Ricin, distilled from castor beans is incredibly toxic.  But 5% Castor Oil in your soap makes lovely lather.

 I am not arguing, Cana.  I'm just pointing out how much room there is for wiggle in unregulated terms.  And, the TERM organic is not regulated in the US.  The USDA SEAL and certification of organic IS.  The "Certified Organic" label is.  The Oregon Tilth Seal is regulated.  The word is not.  So I guess even church music can be "organic" but without the label.  {insert drum riff} :roll: 

 The word itself isn't *yet* regulated.  Then again, I heard today on the news that a junior high school student was SUSPENDED this week for her "inappropriate language".  A fellow student next to her sneezed --- and she responded with, "Bless you."  The teacher replied, "We will have none of that 'God talk' in the class room."  The student pointed out the First Amendment protects her right to religious practice and "free speech", so she was suspended.  I guess those really dangerous words like Bless You will be regulated soon.  :evil:

 {humor font!} Maybe we can all just wash our mouths out with soap, instead.  Soap made with properly certified, labeled, and recognized as generally food safe organic oils, of course; without any lye left in it.  [insert eye roll here.]  {humor font!} :think:

 I think soap, like wax is not certifiable because of all the transmogrification of ingredients from start to end product.  But some people do like to know what goes into their stuff.  Some don't.  Make your customer happy, and be clear.  

 ~HoneyLady~ with the bubbly mouth.


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## pecorasfigs (Aug 20, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> If you fulfill the requirements for organic labeling there is no reason at all to avoid it, because you aren't cashing in on ignorance, you've done the due diligence to earn the label.
> 
> Natural, on the other hand, has no legal standards or definition, and is a marketing term only.


 l

CanaDawn you are great. Love your replies. I did not think when I posted this thread. There would be so many opinions and dislikes for the word natural. But thank God we  live in a country with freedom of speech. All of us put our souls into making soap. Trying and buying ingredients and stuff to make a fantastic bar of soap. Soaps that we make are made with love, honesty. Just think how we feel. If that perfect batch we spent so much time, energy and money on does not come out like we like. If I
Compare the list of ingredients of Dove Soap or any soap sold in our local stores. My soap will be natural. As the old saying goes to each is his own


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

HoneyLady said:


> I can tell you from experience, having a hive near a field of RU Ready soybeans, that they don't spot spray -- they drive rigs up and down the rows spraying every square inch, at least 2x per growing season. That's the point of the RU Ready GMOs.  They can withstand the repeated applications of RU.  And if they spray during bloom, it will take down a strong hive within 3 days.  And RU is an herbicide -- NOT a pesticide like Malathion, or Sevin.
> 
> I know how they spray.  I understand about RU and GMO's and bees and the like.  I'm a biologist. I live in farm country, and have experience with how it's done. OTOH, I have also got experience with growers who do NOT spray chemicals (BT maybe, but not chemicals)
> ...
> ...


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## CanaDawn (Aug 20, 2014)

pecorasfigs said:


> l
> 
> CanaDawn you are great. Love your replies. I did not think when I posted this thread. There would be so many opinions and dislikes for the word natural. But thank God we  live in a country with freedom of speech. All of us put our souls into making soap. Trying and buying ingredients and stuff to make a fantastic bar of soap. Soaps that we make are made with love, honesty. Just think how we feel. If that perfect batch we spent so much time, energy and money on does not come out like we like. If I
> Compare the list of ingredients of Dove Soap or any soap sold in our local stores. My soap will be natural. As the old saying goes to each is his own



Thanks.  I know soapers are dedicated and in large majority mean well and intend to make a good product.  I wasn't discussing or debating that, but we were discussing the use of the term "natural" and what it meant (not much....it's very nebulous!) and mean no disrespect to the work and energy and time we all put into our creations, whether or not we choose to use organic products, seek certification, buy fancy oils, use what the grocery store stocks, sell, or make soap to enjoy ourselves


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## HoneyLady (Aug 21, 2014)

See?  We do agree!  :mrgreen:

 If you live in farm country, you understand my head-banging frustration with the short sightedness of some folks.  I happen to live in an area settled predominantly by Czech and German immigrants.  They are lovely, hard working, frugal, upright, TIDY people.  And the tidiness means they want no "weeds" in their cattle pastures.  Of course the "weeds" are wildflowers, and natural bee forage .  .  .  And then the call and ask why there are no bees in their garden pollinating the cucumbers and tomatoes.  {sigh}.

 There are LOTS of alternatives to wholesale spraying, but tend to be more labor intensive -- cultivation, companion planting, cover crops, etc.  Those were much more common when spraying fertilizers and insecticides where EXPENSIVE.  Now they are the cheaper option.  Since I personally remove by hand all the huge purple "bull thistles" from my 22 acres every spring  (a pile as big as my tractor shed) I understand the allure of EASY.  I just also realize there's a balance to strive for.  (I'm thinking napalm for the thistles next year. -- Joke!) Personally, I am more concerned about GMOs than "organic", since there is so much maneuvering.

 There are lots of alternatives in soap making, too.  Some people refuse to use palm oil in principal, others seek responsibly sourced palm oil.  I use lard, but avoid GMO soy oil. And I think most consumers (including ourselves in the most general sense) have enough knowledge to be dangerous, LOL.  

 Which is why I advocate dialogue.  Tell me what you mean, Mrs. Customer, by "natural"?  "No, my soaps are not vegetarian, Mr. Buyer.  Some contain lard; all of them contain honey and beeswax."  "No, Johnny's Mom, I can't guarantee that my GM and honey soap will cure eczema, clear acne, soften your skin, or do anything besides help remove dirt from your body.  But you might try it, and see if using a product that is minimally processed, has ingredients you can identify and pronounce, and is made with much love and care by me is something you prefer, or not."

 There are always going to be people who want the word "organic" on everything they use.  There will always be people who won't buy your soap because they can buy 10 for $3 at the Dollar Stop.  

 And much depends on your market.  Where I am, using lard in soap is a familiar, frugal, sensible thing to do.  If I were selling in Austin, Boulder, Berkeley, etc., I'd probably specialize in organic oils, no palm, lots of hemp, no beeswax, no honey, and fair trade shea. You pays your money, you takes your choice!  You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time.  But you can't please all the people all the time.

 Thanks, Cana, for helping all of us clarify our own thinking, and pointing out that our customers may have very different ideas of what they think they want -- and how they define that.  It does us all good to be able to articulate clearly our benefits to our customers.  With or without the help of our {insert your choice of adjective here} regulators.  

 You done good!
 ~HoneyLady~


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## wetshavingproducts (Aug 21, 2014)

Arguing about what "organic" should mean isn't going to change the legal definition. Nor will it change customers' opinions/expectations/definitions.

Because, you know, they don't read these boards.


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## Earthen_Step (Aug 21, 2014)

In the united states "natural" is not under any regulations.  "Organic" on the other hand is regulated by the USDA.  You can legally call your soap "natural" but to me it is unethical if you are including synthetics.  To me natural soaps only synthetic can be sodium or potassium hydroxide.

*Edit:
You can legally call your soap "natural" but to me it is unethical if *I am* including synthetics.


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## Dorymae (Aug 23, 2014)

Earthen_Step said:


> You can legally call your soap "natural" but to me it is unethical if you are including synthetics.  To me natural soaps only synthetic can be sodium or potassium hydroxide.



That is the point - *To you* natural soaps.....Opinion.  That is all "natural" is...the opinion of whoever labels or whoever reads it.  Frankly it doesn't matter if you think it is unethical....to others it isn't....it all depends on your opinion of the word.  We all know opinions are something everyone has and they can be very very different.

The only time I would call it unethical is if the opinion of the soap maker was the same as yours and they still used it on a soap with synthetic ingredients. That would be unethical.


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## Earthen_Step (Aug 26, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> That is the point - *To you* natural soaps.....Opinion.  That is all "natural" is...the opinion of whoever labels or whoever reads it.  Frankly it doesn't matter if you think it is unethical....to others it isn't....it all depends on your opinion of the word.  We all know opinions are something everyone has and they can be very very different.
> 
> The only time I would call it unethical is if the opinion of the soap maker was the same as yours and they still used it on a soap with synthetic ingredients. That would be unethical.



Yes, that is a very good point.  Because the definition is not set, it cannot be unethical if the person believes it is "all natural" and labels it so.  Like someone else mentioned earlier if I use synthetic sodium hydroxide it is not 100% natural.  

The main issue is the "natural" term has lost a lot of meaning because it is abused.  I think it would be great if a group similar to the "Certified Naturally Grown" became an answer.  This would allow people to label "Certified 100% Natural" under an agreeable definition without government intervention. 

Thanks for your clear comment Dorymae.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 26, 2014)

I think it would still be unethical because it is just what that person believes.  Unless they clearly state why they mark it as all natural then the person buying it might assume that it meets their own standard of all natural, when it doesn't.  This is unless the seller doesn't realise that all natural is not defined, in which case there are deeper issues.


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## Susie (Aug 26, 2014)

There is a difference between illegal and unethical.  The lack of a legal (government)definition makes calling some soaps and body products "natural" perfectly legal.  It does not make it ethical.

TEG had the correct approach.  Ask the customer what they define as natural. Then honestly answer according to their concerns.  That is ethical, _and legal_.  Because, to me, representing your product as anything other than what it is is unethical.


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## Earthen_Step (Aug 26, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> This is unless the seller doesn't realise that all natural is not defined, in which case there are deeper issues.



Made me laugh. But,  I'm sure many don't realize "all natural" is not defined for labels though.  Natural: existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.  It seems natural people would naturally think that something all natural is made by nature.  People have gone to great lengths defending their stance on labeling food with synthetics as "all natural".  

It's a pretty messy subject but this is a fun conversation.  Thanks for bringing it up pecorasfigs.


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## wetshavingproducts (Aug 26, 2014)

Even the definition requires personal interpretation. Is refining something found in nature man-made? If it exists in nature, is it still natural?


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## Dorymae (Aug 26, 2014)

wetshavingproducts said:


> Even the definition requires personal interpretation. Is refining something found in nature man-made? If it exists in nature, is it still natural?



Good point, there are many chemicals that are indeed natural that many would object to in an "all natural" soap!


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## CanaDawn (Aug 26, 2014)

Which doesn't make those things not-natural (unnatural), just undesirable.


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