# GLDA, a modern alternative to EDTA



## SaltedFig (Mar 5, 2019)

I posted this information in another thread, but I'm placing the information here so it can be easily found.

*EDTA*
EDTA, created in 1935, is a persistant organic pollutant (or POP).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_organic_pollutant

EDTA is not biodegradeable, is fossil-fuel based, is resistant to removal in sewerage treatment, is able to mobilize heavy metals in the environment and is toxic to aquatic life ... definitely not "crunchy"

*There is an alternative:*
*
GLDA*
The L form of Tetrasodium glutamate diacetate, or GLDA, is based on renewable materials (fermented sugar), functions across a wider pH range, matches or exceeds EDTA in controlling soap scum and is readily biodegradeable.
(It is also being researched for use as a micronutrient)

GLDA is sold under the trade names of Dissolvine-GL and BioPure GLDA

From the BioPure pdf:
_Biopure™ GLDA is a 1:1 Replacement for EDTA •GLDA works as well as EDTA, if not better, as seen in testing for Calcium Sequestration Values at a pH of 11 and 27oC. Calcium Sequestration is the process of binding or confining calcium ions to separate them from other components of a biological system._

From the Dissolvine-GL website:
_GLDA is free from genetically modified raw materials and is not irritating to skin or eyes. It is suitable to be used in personal care and cosmetics to chelate calcium and transition metal ions_

https://chelates.nouryon.com/products/dissolvine/dissolvine-gl/
https://www.jarchem.com/portfolio/biopure-glda/
https://files.constantcontact.com/ca75b1e0701/ee373c36-f92d-44e8-9577-35e3c144a179.pdf
http://www.subsport.eu/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/AkzoNobel_Gl_Technical_brochure_tcm108-40030.pdf

This was posted as an alternative to EDTA.

(For a more natural chelator, Sodium citrate is often suggested, which can be purchased, or made by reacting citric acid with sodium hydroxide, or ... for the adventurous, adding lemon juice, with sufficient NaOH to counter it's acidic action, to your soap ).


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## reeeen4 (Mar 5, 2019)

Mmmm interesting, have you tried it? has anyone tried it on here?


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## Susie (Mar 5, 2019)

This is quite interesting.  However, since it is derived from MSG, does anyone know how likely it is to trigger reactions in people who are sensitive to MSG (migraines and/or taking MAOI)?


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## SaltedFig (Mar 5, 2019)

They are claiming that it does not cause a reaction on skin (in the first link):
_Produced from monosodium L-glutamic acid (MSG), which is a biobased naturally occurring amino acid, GLDA is readily biodegradable and offers high solubility over a wide pH range. It does not sensitize human skin, provides enhanced biocidal boosting power and improved biodegradability properties.
_
It is approved by your FDA for use in food too, so there must be some tests around on human ingestion (referencing the MSG point) ... but I agree - testing is in order.

I've found a supplier here of the pre-diluted product, so now I'm on the hunt for a powder version for testing.

(It look like it's manufactured in America, so it might be easier for you all to get hold of there )


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## IrishLass (Mar 5, 2019)

Thanks for sharing! Sounds promising- both a chelator and a biocide, just like tetrasodium EDTA? Once my tetrasodium EDTA is gone, I will be on the lookout for it.


IrishLass


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## Susie (Mar 5, 2019)

Me, too.  I have some tetrasodium EDTA left, but not much.  I will look for it ASAP.  If anyone finds it, can you please post the info on this thread?  Also, please post any testing you do with it.  TIA!


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## reeeen4 (Mar 5, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> They are claiming that it does not cause a reaction on skin (in the first link):
> _Produced from monosodium L-glutamic acid (MSG), which is a biobased naturally occurring amino acid, GLDA is readily biodegradable and offers high solubility over a wide pH range. It does not sensitize human skin, provides enhanced biocidal boosting power and improved biodegradability properties.
> _
> It is approved by your FDA for use in food too, so there must be some tests around on human ingestion (referencing the MSG point) ... but I agree - testing is in order.
> ...


Oh if you find any in Australia (I see your from Australia too) please let me know I'm very interested too


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## shunt2011 (Mar 6, 2019)

I'd be interested as well.  Sounds like a really great alternative.


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## Clarice (Mar 6, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> GLDA is sold under the trade names of Dissolvine-GL and BioPure GLDA



I have sent emails to each of the suppliers asking where these products are sold.  If / when I receive a response I will share the information.  @Susie, one of them is in Plano - Viachem - don't know how close that is to you in your great state of Texas!


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## SaltedFig (Mar 7, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> Thanks for sharing! Sounds promising- both a chelator and a biocide, just like tetrasodium EDTA? Once my tetrasodium EDTA is gone, I will be on the lookout for it.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



This website that gives a brief description of the biocidal action of GLDA.

Image source: https://www.brenntag.com/uk-ireland...ervation-boosting-with-dissolvine-gl-47-s.jsp







(Dissolvine-47-S is 47% tetrasodium GLDA in solution)

According to this Dissolvine brochure, the product code for the micro-granular (or dry) form of tetrasodium GLDA is "GL-PD-S"


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## IrishLass (Mar 7, 2019)

Sweet! Thank you SaltedFig! The cool thing that I've always liked about using the tetrasodium EDTA is that not only does it help my soap lather better in my hard water and cut down on soap scum, but it's also a DOS preventative and a preservative booster. Now I'm curious if it will perform just as well as my tetrasodium EDTA does when used at the same low usage rate at which I use it:  .5% per total weight of my soap batches and @ .2% in my lotion (along with .8% phenonip). Hmmmm.......


IrishLass


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## SaltedFig (Mar 11, 2019)

Clarice said:


> I have sent emails to each of the suppliers asking where these products are sold.  If / when I receive a response I will share the information.



Fantastic Clarice, thank-you! 

If anyone is interested in forming a test collaborative here in Australia, please send me an expression of interest - if there are enough, it might be worthwhile setting up a single purchase to distribute for testing


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## KiwiSoap (May 4, 2019)

Many thanks to *SaltedFig* for introducing us to GLDA, I'm wondering if anyone found any further information or a source for GLDA?


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## SaltedFig (May 5, 2019)

KiwiSoap said:


> Many thanks to *SaltedFig* for introducing us to GLDA, I'm wondering if anyone found any further information or a source for GLDA?



Welcome! ... It's nice just to be able to find a biodegradeable alternative (EDTA is considered an environmental pollutant), but from what I've discovered so far, it is reputed to function even better than EDTA (and can be simply substituted on a one-for-one basis in any recipe that uses EDTA) ... double-bonus! 

I have found a large supplier in Australia and spoke to someone on the sales (management) team, but with all of the holidays we've had just recently, they were on skeleton crew when I called, so I'll get back onto that next week. I've got a small list of people to send some too locally (if/when I get some). Not sure how it would go sending a sample over the ditch (import/export laws on chemicals n all - I'd have to look that up first).

What I will do is ask the Aussie supplier when I talk to them - they might be part of a larger group, and if they are, I'll scoot you the Kiwi contact details via PM.


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## KiwiSoap (May 5, 2019)

Wow, that would be brilliant if you could find that information! You'd think with EDTA's status that there would be efforts to get users to change over to the eco-friendly alternative. Many thanks again for your information and efforts!


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## earlene (May 5, 2019)

I wonder how GLDA compares to EDTA in terms of preventing DOS when in combination with ROE.

Have any studies been done to look at that aspect in regards to how GLDA works in combination with ROE, the way Dr. Kevin Dunn did with his studies on DOS prevention?  


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 
Suppliers in the US:

https://www.essentialwholesale.com/product/2625/tetrasodium-glutamate-diacetate
https://viacheminc.com/product/glda-chelate-dissolvine-gl-47-s/ (can request a sample)


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## Rune (May 5, 2019)

Oh no, @SaltedFig!   I wish you did not write this, or at least that I did not read it, because I have ordered EDTA a week ago or so, and it is in the postal system somewhere right now. If I knew this I would have just continued turning my citric acid into sodium citrate.

Well, well, since it probably is just as toxic to throw it away somewhere, I think I will just use it and order sodium citrate next time. But I do suspect that bag of EDTA will last for centuries before I finally have managed to empty it.


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## earlene (May 5, 2019)

Rune said:


> Oh no, @SaltedFig!   I wish you did not write this, or at least that I did not read it, because I have ordered EDTA a week ago or so, and it is in the postal system somewhere right now. If I knew this I would have just continued turning my citric acid into sodium citrate.
> 
> Well, well, since it probably is just as toxic to throw it away somewhere, I think I will just use it and order sodium citrate next time. But I do suspect that bag of EDTA will last for centuries before I finally have managed to empty it.



Yes, I don't foresee running out of my bag of EDTA for some time to come.  Especially since I've begun to realize we have way too much soap and even my SIL is giving it away now, too.


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## Arimara (May 5, 2019)

earlene said:


> Yes, I don't foresee running out of my bag of EDTA for some time to come.  Especially since I've begun to realize we have way too much soap and even my SIL is giving it away now, too.



O_O you have a lot of soap, ma'am.


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## reeeen4 (May 6, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> Welcome! ... It's nice just to be able to find a biodegradeable alternative (EDTA is considered an environmental pollutant), but from what I've discovered so far, it is reputed to function even better than EDTA (and can be simply substituted on a one-for-one basis in any recipe that uses EDTA) ... double-bonus!
> 
> I have found a large supplier in Australia and spoke to someone on the sales (management) team, but with all of the holidays we've had just recently, they were on skeleton crew when I called, so I'll get back onto that next week. I've got a small list of people to send some too locally (if/when I get some). Not sure how it would go sending a sample over the ditch (import/export laws on chemicals n all - I'd have to look that up first).
> 
> What I will do is ask the Aussie supplier when I talk to them - they might be part of a larger group, and if they are, I'll scoot you the Kiwi contact details via PM.


Ooooh I'm interested in getting some of this too!!


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## justjacqui (May 9, 2019)

The GLDA is sold in three different forms a powder, a 38% solution and a 47% solution. The powder is hygroscopic so be careful to store it carefully if you end up with this version.

In my day job I have used this product (the 47% solution) in replacing EDTA in household and industrial cleaning products and it worked very well. So there should be no reason that it wouldn't work in soap.

@SaltedFig I'm not sure who you spoke to but the distributor for the Dissolvine brand in Australia is IMCD. They will generally only sell in large volumes but they might be able to point you in the direction of someone who is willing to resell the product in smaller lots.  Alternatively you could approach one of the soap suppliers and ask them to get in some for a trial.


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## penelopejane (May 11, 2019)

justjacqui said:


> The GLDA is sold in three different forms a powder, a 38% solution and a 47% solution. The powder is hygroscopic so be careful to store it carefully if you end up with this version.
> 
> In my day job I have used this product (the 47% solution) in replacing EDTA in household and industrial cleaning products and it worked very well. So there should be no reason that it wouldn't work in soap.
> 
> @SaltedFig I'm not sure who you spoke to but the distributor for the Dissolvine brand in Australia is IMCD. They will generally only sell in large volumes but they might be able to point you in the direction of someone who is willing to resell the product in smaller lots.  Alternatively you could approach one of the soap suppliers and ask them to get in some for a trial.


Hi Justjacui, 
Buying bigger lots isn't a problem if a few of us share it. 
Where are you buying yours from for work?


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## justjacqui (May 13, 2019)

@penelopejane We buy from IMCD but in 1250kg lots.


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## KristaY (May 13, 2019)

Susie said:


> This is quite interesting.  However, since it is derived from MSG, does anyone know how likely it is to trigger reactions in people who are sensitive to MSG (migraines and/or taking MAOI)?



Susie has an excellent point about the potential MSG reaction. Does anyone have an answer? My DH has a severe sensitivity to MSG and it's final breakdown to glutamic acid. If this ends up in my soap and then absorbed by his skin, that could be a big problem.


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## Susie (May 14, 2019)

Clarice said:


> I have sent emails to each of the suppliers asking where these products are sold.  If / when I receive a response I will share the information.  @Susie, one of them is in Plano - Viachem - don't know how close that is to you in your great state of Texas!



It is actually in the DFW metroplex (which is where I live).  Thanks for the info, I am going to look them up.


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## Susie (May 14, 2019)

The Viachem website offers a "Request a Sample" here:

https://viacheminc.com/product/glda-chelate-dissolvine-gl-47-s/

Spoke to a very nice gentleman regarding the sample.  Problem is that they only sell in drum sized portions.  They will send a sample of the 47% liquid formulation (hygroscopic and is shipped over the ocean) to someone.  Problem is that I am waiting for 2nd cataract surgery, waiting for cardiac ablation, and my daughter in Mississippi just informed me that she needs surgery.  So I can't take lead on getting this sample and sending it out to folks.  Whoever would like to contact him, here is his contact info.

Jared Cole
p:  972-265-0416
c:  903-818-6561

And whoever it is, please let us know the quantity he sent and if it is a lot, you can let us know how much handling and shipping (don't forget cost of containers if you have to purchase any), so that you will not be out anything for doing something super nice.


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## Skatergirl46 (May 15, 2019)

Where can it be purchased? I have been looking and haven’t found a place to buy any.


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## glendam (May 16, 2019)

Skatergirl46 said:


> Where can it be purchased? I have been looking and haven’t found a place to buy any.


Earlier, Earlene posted this link for the US: https://www.essentialwholesale.com/product/2625/tetrasodium-glutamate-diacetate


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## Susie (May 21, 2019)

Whoever contacted Jared with Viachem, I am the person he initially talked to.  (He just called me and let me know that you want my screen name.)


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 10, 2019)

Did anyone end up trying GLDA?  If so, can you share any insights?


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## DeeAnna (Oct 10, 2019)

I haven't tried GLDA. GLDA didn't seem to be quite as effective as EDTA based on the info in SaltedFig's first post, and I was a little concerned about that. It also doesn't seem to be widely available to the home crafting market. 

I'm considering testing sodium gluconate instead. It may be as effective as EDTA if you can believe the manufacturer Jungbunzlauer -- https://mafiadoc.com/powerful-green-the-versatile-chelating-agent-_59c42b6b1723ddcaf4d6f74f.html And it's sold by various craft suppliers.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 10, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> I haven't tried GLDA. GLDA didn't seem to be quite as effective as EDTA based on the info in SaltedFig's first post, and I was a little concerned about that. It also doesn't seem to be widely available to the home crafting market.
> 
> I'm considering testing sodium gluconate instead. It may be as effective as EDTA if you can believe the manufacturer Jungbunzlauer -- https://mafiadoc.com/powerful-green-the-versatile-chelating-agent-_59c42b6b1723ddcaf4d6f74f.html And it's sold by various craft suppliers.


That sounds promising!  Thanks for sharing the info.


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## penelopejane (Oct 11, 2019)

I've tried sodium gluconate.  I did a bubble test and it performed at least as well as CA (I know it is only a chealator not like EDTA).  I do not know how to test if it is as good as CA, EDTA or whatever.  Do you just take the manufacturer's word that it does?  It is really expensive here (compared to CA) and I have to buy at 25kg bag.  I am sticking to CA until I can get a better supplier or someone to share it with.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 11, 2019)

Thanks for the feedback on sodium gluconate. No, I don't necessarily swallow the manufacturer's information without chewing, but it's the best I can find at the moment. I figure some info is better than guessing.

I know you're in Australia, PJ, and I'm sorry I can't help you find a cheaper source. In the US, looks like sodium gluconate isn't horribly expensive -- I'm seeing prices from $3 to $7 for one pound. Cheaper per pound if you buy larger quantities, but 1 lb would do me fine for quite awhile.

One source, not necessarily the cheapest: https://www.makingcosmetics.com/Sodium-Gluconate-USP_p_1103.html  Another: https://www.makeyourown.buzz/sodium-gluconate/


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## cmzaha (Oct 11, 2019)

I purchased Sodium Gluconate on Ebay. I cannot say how it works alone as I have used it with EDTA for my daughter's soaps. She lives in an area with super-hard water. It works well for her in combination with Tetrasodium EDTA
https://tinyurl.com/y5yw9s2c


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## DeeAnna (Oct 12, 2019)

Curious, @cmzaha, why you use both? I certainly don't think there's any harm in using both chelators, but what advantage do you see?


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## cmzaha (Oct 12, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> Curious, @cmzaha, why you use both? I certainly don't think there's any harm in using both chelators, but what advantage do you see?


To be truthful I do not know that there is an advantage but a product my daughter purchases to use on her hair to help with the hard water deposits contains both and I am wanting to use up my 5 lbs of Tetrasodium EDTA, so it lead me to try both. My daughter has not tried the soaps side by side long enough to know if there is any difference in using the combination. I really doubt it makes a difference. Originally I was going to make her shampoo bars, but the shampoo and conditioner she buys works well and is more cost-effective so I suggested she use what she buys.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 12, 2019)

So I use 0.5 percent EDTA and have the impression that sodium gluconate would be used at that same dosage. Does that sound reasonable?


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## cmzaha (Oct 12, 2019)

I am using both at the 0.5% rate. I do notice I have even less scum in my shower and no crystals on the outside of my soap like I would get when I used to use Citric Acid. July is the first time I poured soaps using this combination so I have really just started using them, and will know a little more by next month


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## penelopejane (Oct 13, 2019)

EDTA also makes soap hard. Not sure that SG does. One day I’m going to fly to the US and buy some soap stuff. It will be cheaper than the postage the individual companies charge

CMzaha I am wondering if your citric acid forms crystals due to your process? I don’t get crystals. I dissolve my CA in water at the time I make my soap. I don’t add it to the water before I make a masterbatch of lye.


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## cmzaha (Oct 13, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> EDTA also makes soap hard. Not sure that SG does. One day I’m going to fly to the US and buy some soap stuff. It will be cheaper than the postage the individual companies charge
> 
> CMzaha I am wondering if your citric acid forms crystals due to your process? I don’t get crystals. I dissolve my CA in water at the time I make my soap. I don’t add it to the water before I make a masterbatch of lye.


I do not remember the percentages I was using, but what I started with did not help but did not form crystals on the outside of the soap, when I upped the percentage the crystals formed. DeeAnna and I realized it was the Citric Acid causing it, so I changed to Tetrasodium EDTA which stoped the crystals and helped with the soap scum. I also masterbatched up my citric acid solution.


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## steffamarie (Nov 5, 2019)

Just ran out of EDTA so I ordered some GLDA from Essential Wholesale. On their website, they mention a 0.5% - 10% usage range, just wondered if anyone had any insight on what would be the best usage rate for it as a chelator? I used EDTA at 0.5% of batch weight. I am thinking of trying it at 1% since it seems it may be slightly less effective than EDTA.


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## CatahoulaBubble (Nov 10, 2019)

This is interesting but to be honest I didn't even know EDTA existed until today. I learned soap making from my grandmother and honed it by experimenting with different oils once I discovered soap calc. I've never added EDTA to my soap and I've never had DOS even after 3 years of storage.


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## Mobjack Bay (Nov 16, 2019)

Has anyone heard of or tried Trilon M as a chelator?  The chemical name is methylglycinediacetic acid (MGDA)*. Apparently, Trilon M was the first product to meet the US EPA’s Design for Environment criteria for chelating and sequestering agents (in 2011).  There’s an old press release about it here, and links for technical info and msds are provided at a supplier site called Saveoncitric.  It’s pricey for a 10 lb bag.  https://www.saveoncitric.com/trmpo10lb.html  According to what I read, it works well at high pH, has low toxicity to aquatic organisms and is biodegradable.


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## penelopejane (Dec 2, 2019)

CatahoulaBubble said:


> This is interesting but to be honest I didn't even know EDTA existed until today. I learned soap making from my grandmother and honed it by experimenting with different oils once I discovered soap calc. I've never added EDTA to my soap and I've never had DOS even after 3 years of storage.


EDTA also makes soap hard and gives it a "strange" (to me) feel - sort of plasticy.


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## sabina iyer (Dec 2, 2019)

Hi All, 
I have been hunting all over internet last week for a soap recipe that lathers well in hard water. I found that EDTA or sodium gluconate would help to increase the lather. Now today i can across a new one called sodium cocoyl isetheoniate powder. Looks like this it helps lather even in hard water. Have any of you used it and compare which one is better


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## lsg (Dec 2, 2019)

SCI is a surfactant.  I use it in shampoo and other B&B products.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 2, 2019)

SCI (sodium cocoyl isetheoniate) is a synthetic detergent (surfactant), not a chelator. You can't directly compare a syndet with a chelator because they don't function the same way.

By adding SCI to soap, you're making a "combo bar" which is a mixture of soap and non-soap detergents. Sure, a combo bar might lather better in hard water, but only because the SCI is not affected by hard water. It's not that you're helping the _soap _to lather better.


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## sabina iyer (Dec 2, 2019)

Thanks for pointing the difference. I guess it is better not to use SCI in my soaps as it would strip off oils and would be drying for skin. I would stick to chelator


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## DeeAnna (Dec 2, 2019)

SCI is a good synthetic detergent in that it is reasonably mild on the skin and has decent lather. Study up on its properties and you'll learn that for yourself.

The issues with SCI is that it is not lye-based soap, which is the main interest of most of us. And SCI is not a chelator, if you want to use a chelator to lengthen shelf life and reduce soap scum. Chelators are the topic of discussion in this thread -- we aren't discussing surfactants.

If you would like to discuss the benefits of adding SCI or  other syndets to soap, you might get more responses and better ideas if you start your own new thread on that topic.


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## sabina iyer (Dec 3, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> SCI is a good synthetic detergent in that it is reasonably mild on the skin and has decent lather. Study up on its properties and you'll learn that for yourself.
> 
> The issues with SCI is that it is not lye-based soap, which is the main interest of most of us. And SCI is not a chelator, if you want to use a chelator to lengthen shelf life and reduce soap scum. Chelators are the topic of discussion in this thread -- we aren't discussing surfactants.
> 
> If you would like to discuss the benefits of adding SCI or  other syndets to soap, you might get more responses and better ideas if you start your own new thread on that topic.


Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that a chelator would add up the lather and SCI would double up as chelator and surfactant.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 3, 2019)

SCI is only a synthetic detergent. It is not a chelator. I'd like to read the source that says it's a chelator -- do you have a reference so I can look that up?


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## Mobjack Bay (Dec 6, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Has anyone heard of or tried Trilon M as a chelator?  The chemical name is methylglycinediacetic acid (MGDA)*. Apparently, Trilon M was the first product to meet the US EPA’s Design for Environment criteria for chelating and sequestering agents (in 2011).  There’s an old press release about it here, and links for technical info and msds are provided at a supplier site called Saveoncitric.  It’s pricey for a 10 lb bag.  https://www.saveoncitric.com/trmpo10lb.html  According to what I read, it works well at high pH, has low toxicity to aquatic organisms and is biodegradable.


Bumping this one.  Has anyone heard of MGDA/Trilon M?


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## Michele50 (Dec 7, 2019)

earlene said:


> I wonder how GLDA compares to EDTA in terms of preventing DOS when in combination with ROE.
> 
> Have any studies been done to look at that aspect in regards to how GLDA works in combination with ROE, the way Dr. Kevin Dunn did with his studies on DOS prevention?
> 
> ...



I've copied/pasted part of a PDF from https://chelates.nouryon.com/siteassets/Brochure-dissolvine-gl-technical-brochure.pdf
This 14 or so page PDF contains a bunch of info about GLDA. I'm thinking that what I highlighted in yellow *IS* speaking about GLDA and it states something about rancidity which causes DOS. I've provided the link to the site and you'll find the info below on page 12.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 7, 2019)

The entire passage you show are valid descriptions of what any chelator does. Irish Lass uses EDTA in her lotions to reinforce her preservative due to EDTAs action on killing bacteria (the last part of the passage refers to this.)

What Earlene is wondering is whether there is a specific, positive interaction between GLDA and the antioxidant ROE. She's referring to the tests Dunn did to see which pairings of various chelators and antioxidants were the most effective. He didn't look at GLDA in his experiments.

Speaking from memory, he looked at the various combinations of the antioxidants ROE and BHT paired with the chelators EDTA and citrate. Some pairings didn't perform any better than using just one chemical alone; other pairings performed markedly better.


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## earlene (Dec 10, 2019)

Yes, you are correct, *DeeAnna*, that is what I was wondering about; when used in combination with ROE.  Since I will most likely always use ROE in my oils, I like to know how a chelator works in combination with ROE.  It would certainly be useful to know if it acts as well as or better than the EDTA/ROE combination, or if is somehow less effective in combination.  That is what I would want to know before switching from a combo I already find effective.


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## Kcryss (Jan 10, 2020)

I've been using CA to combat soap scum, but based on recent discussions and subsequent research it looks like GLDA is a good "green' alternative to EDTA and EDTA works much better than CA.

Has anyone tried GLDA? Does it work better than CA, EDTA etc.?


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## cmzaha (Jan 10, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> The entire passage you show are valid descriptions of what any chelator does. Irish Lass uses EDTA in her lotions to reinforce her preservative due to EDTAs action on killing bacteria (the last part of the passage refers to this.)
> 
> What Earlene is wondering is whether there is a specific, positive interaction between GLDA and the antioxidant ROE. She's referring to the tests Dunn did to see which pairings of various chelators and antioxidants were the most effective. He didn't look at GLDA in his experiments.
> 
> Speaking from memory, he looked at the various combinations of the antioxidants ROE and BHT paired with the chelators EDTA and citrate. Some pairings didn't perform any better than using just one chemical alone; other pairings performed markedly better.


I also use EDTA in my lotions and will most likely never change it.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 10, 2020)

_"...Has anyone tried GLDA? Does it work better than CA, EDTA etc.?..."_

I think the general consensus of those who have used citrate and also used EDTA is that EDTA seems to be more effective than citrate.

GLDA is hard to buy in small quantities. I'm looking instead at trying sodium gluconate after I use up the EDTA I have on hand. It is sold in smaller quantities and seems to be as or more effective than GLDA based on manufacturer's literature.


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## Kcryss (Jan 10, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...Has anyone tried GLDA? Does it work better than CA, EDTA etc.?..."_
> 
> I think the general consensus of those who have used citrate and also used EDTA is that EDTA seems to be more effective than citrate.
> 
> GLDA is hard to buy in small quantities. I'm looking instead at trying sodium gluconate after I use up the EDTA I have on hand. It is sold in smaller quantities and seems to be as or more effective than GLDA based on manufacturer's literature.


Oh, good to know. Thanks!


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## Kcryss (Jan 10, 2020)

Doing some research on GLDA vs EDTA and came across a discussion on the Chemistcorner site. According to one of their long time formulators and a professional chemist (MarkBroussard), GLDA is a more effective chleator than EDTA. Don't know if he bases that on testing he's done specifically or not, but thought it was pertinent to this conversation.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1267/citric-acid-for-chelation

This one is very interesting. They are actually testing Trilon M, but have included GLDA and EDTA for comparisons. https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/media/2016/03/TrilonM_Webinar_Combined_04192016_v12-FINAL.pdf

So, is the GLDA/EDTA (whichever is used) added to the lye water, or the fats or after trace/cook depending on cp or hp? 

Also, it seems GLDA is more effective if combined with CA. CA is added to the lye water and dissolved before adding lye, if GLDA is added with the lye water, is there a potential to cause an unpleasant chemical reaction when the lye is then added?


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 10, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> This one is very interesting. They are actually testing Trilon M, but have included GLDA and EDTA for comparisons. https://knowledge.ulprospector.com/media/2016/03/TrilonM_Webinar_Combined_04192016_v12-FINAL.pdf
> 
> So, is the GLDA/EDTA (whichever is used) added to the lye water, or the fats or after trace/cook depending on cp or hp?
> 
> Also, it seems GLDA is more effective if combined with CA. CA is added to the lye water and dissolved before adding lye, if GLDA is added with the lye water, is there a potential to cause an unpleasant chemical reaction when the lye is then added?


Trilon M sounds like a “super” chelator, is also biodegradable and has low environmental toxicity based on what I was able to find, posted above.  It’s pricey though.  Based on the link you added, I may splurge to buy the 10 lb bag from Save on Citric.  If it doesn’t end up working in soap, I will try using it to clean my showers, bath tub and cars.


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## cmzaha (Jan 11, 2020)

I have been really happy with my EDTA/ Sodium Gluconate combination. Will probably try SG buy itself at 1%. I added a link for a buyer I get it from on ebay.
https://tinyurl.com/ql5bwfx


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 11, 2020)

To recap a bit, is it GLDA that is chemically similar/may break down to mono sodium glutamate?  For some reason I had it in my mind that it was sodium gluconate, but in re-reading, I think I had that wrong.


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## Kcryss (Jan 11, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> To recap a bit, is it GLDA that is chemically similar/may break down to mono sodium glutamate?  For some reason I had it in my mind that it was sodium gluconate, but in re-reading, I think I had that wrong.



I think that was a concern (w/GLDA) that was expressed earlier in this thread, but there hasn't really been a response to the concern. 
I did a quick search to see if anything has been reported as far as allergen's etc and haven't found anything to indicate a problem.
This article https://library.essentialwholesale.com/edta/ was written in 2016 and they have changed a large number of their products to GLDA from EDTA. I didn't see anyone expressing a concern or having come across issues with sensitivity/allergy's etc.


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## Kcryss (Jan 24, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I have been really happy with my EDTA/ Sodium Gluconate combination. Will probably try SG buy itself at 1%.



Have you tried with just the Sodium Gluconate yet? I've never used it, but was thinking about getting some. Not sure if I should get that and GLDA or just the Sodium Gluconate.


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## Jackie Tobey (Jan 25, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I have been really happy with my EDTA/ Sodium Gluconate combination. Will probably try SG buy itself at 1%. I added a link for a buyer I get it from on ebay.
> https://tinyurl.com/ql5bwfx


How much of each are you using?  I usually only use EDTA. But just received my Sodium Gluconate this week. Today was the first day using it. I added it to lye water at 0.5% of total batch weight.   I also added 1% CA. But I wondered about using both EDTA and Sodium Gluconate.  And no CA.


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## cmzaha (Jan 25, 2020)

I use 0.5%, of my total batch weight, of each and dissolve them in whatever liquid I am using which is usually vinegar.  I soap with 50/50 masterbatch so always have extra liquid to add.


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## gloopygloop (Jan 25, 2020)

I have been using sodium gluconate for a while now and it seems to be fine, certainly no problems.


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## Kcryss (Jan 25, 2020)

Just to be sure I understand, I'm a bit hard headed sometimes. 

EDTA/GLDA/Sodium Gluconate are all chealators. Correct?
All three can also be used as preservative boosters. Is this correct?

Is there anything else they do that I'm missing?


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## sarahmarah (Jul 23, 2020)

Just wanted to chime in—I’ve found that you can purchase small quantities from Essential Wholesale. There isn’t too much information provided on their site and I’ve since reached out to customer care to find what the concentration is just to so I know. Has anyone had success using this? 
 I’m attempting to use this in my next batch—I’ve never used a chelation additive before. Do you add chelators to your liquid before the lye? Or just throw it in with your oils? For those that use EDTA how do you add it to your soap? I assume the two can be added the same way at the same percentages .05-1%


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## DeeAnna (Jul 23, 2020)

I do not add it to the lye solution. Here are my suggestions for using EDTA -- Soapy Stuff: EDTA


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## sarahmarah (Jul 23, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> I do not add it to the lye solution. Here are my suggestions for using EDTA -- Soapy Stuff: EDTA



Thank you


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## debdeb54 (Sep 19, 2021)

I have a slightly different problem.  I made a huge batch of Castille LS...19 Mason qt jars.  After I refilled my pump bottles I washed out the jar and it's cloudy.  I assumed it was soap scum and have tried everything I can think of to scrub it off without sucess.  I always store soap in wide mouth to make cleaning easier.  I even tried using a magic eraser.  I don't have any citric acid on hand so I haven't tried that yet and don't want to buy it unless it will work.  Even my homemade cleaner that works to clean the tub hasn't worked.  Now I'm wondering if somehow the surface is etched.  The other jar wasn't like this when I refilled the dispensers.   Any suggestions?


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## earlene (Sep 19, 2021)

I don't know if it is etched yet, but over time it can happen, so perhaps you have stored enough soap in that jar so many times, that it is beginning to show.  If so, the time will come when it becomes easier to break spontaneously as well, and you don't want that to happen when you pour something hot into the jar, especially if that hot thing is soap!

You could try soaking it in vinegar.  If no improvement, I would then try soaking it in bleach.  If it remains 'cloudy' looking, I would put it into the recycle bin.


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## debdeb54 (Sep 19, 2021)

Thank you!  I can understand that lye might etch it but finished soap?  Strange!  I will try your suggestions.


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## earlene (Sep 20, 2021)

You bring up a point, when you say 'finished' soap, which would mean soap that you are talking about soap after saponification is complete with so evidence of zap.  If, in fact, your soap was zap free before you ever mixed it & stored it in the Mason jar, it doesn't seem likely that it would have any active lye remaining and should not etch.

If that is the case, then I would not assume etching, but something else.  Perhaps all you need to try is a chelator in the jar.  Perhaps you just have soap scum adhering to the glass making it cloudy.  Maybe make up a strong solution of citric acid, or pour some pickle juice in the jar to set for a few days after using up a jar of pickles.  See if that eats away at the cloudiness.

A link with ideas for cleaning cloudy glass (from flower arrangements that sit too long in a vase):  3 Simple Ways to Clean a Cloudy Glass Vase


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## Johnez (Sep 20, 2021)

debdeb54 said:


> I have a slightly different problem.  I made a huge batch of Castille LS...19 Mason qt jars.  After I refilled my pump bottles I washed out the jar and it's cloudy.  I assumed it was soap scum and have tried everything I can think of to scrub it off without sucess.  I always store soap in wide mouth to make cleaning easier.  I even tried using a magic eraser.  I don't have any citric acid on hand so I haven't tried that yet and don't want to buy it unless it will work.  Even my homemade cleaner that works to clean the tub hasn't worked.  Now I'm wondering if somehow the surface is etched.  The other jar wasn't like this when I refilled the dispensers.   Any suggestions?


You can buy a small amount of citric acid at grocery stores, Target or Walmart. I've seen a containers for between $4-10. If it doesn't work you can start a new hobby-canning!


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## Zany_in_CO (Sep 20, 2021)

debdeb54 said:


> I assumed it was soap scum and have tried everything I can think of to scrub it off without sucess.


If you have Arm & Hammer Super Washing Soda on hand, I would try that. 
1 tablespoon Washing Soda
16 oz. Hot (Boiling) Water
Let soak 5 minutes.

I use it to clean containers after making waxy products like balms, salves, and lip balm. Works like a charm. I strain the wax out before pouring it into another container to reuse.


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