# INCI Question



## SudsyKat (Feb 28, 2013)

Hi, all! I've searched the forum and didn't find this particular question answered...

Since glycerin is a byproduct of soap making, can I list it in my ingredients? I mean, if I can list the "sodium ____ate" names of oils and leave out the lye, I was wondering if this same "final product" kind of thinking can be applied to the glycerin that's produced. 

Thanks for your input!

Kat


----------



## Genny (Feb 28, 2013)

Where on the ingredient list would you put it though since you're supposed to list ingredients in order from largest percentage to smallest?


----------



## Lindy (Feb 28, 2013)

Actually yes you can - I would place it after your oils and the INCI for it is glycerin or glycerine....


----------



## AlchemyandAshes (Feb 28, 2013)

Lindy said:


> Actually yes you can - I would place it after your oils and the INCI for it is glycerin or glycerine....



But without testing, how do you know the final quantity of glycerine in your soap? 
Is there a formula to determine X amount of X oil saponified = X amount of glycerine?


----------



## judymoody (Feb 28, 2013)

Personally, I wouldn't.  You could have some description somewhere about retaining natural glycerine as part of the soapmaking process - if you must.

But seriously, if you buy packaged baked goods, you get full ingredients - water, flour, sugar, oil, eggs, etc.  It doesn't say "cake." 

I prefer a full ingredient list (including lye) of what went into my soap.

You do not need to use INCI terms when labeling your soap, assuming you are in the US.  In fact, you don't need ingredients at all, according to the law.  But I think it would be very foolish not to make that information available to your end user.


----------



## shabaity (Feb 28, 2013)

a full list is a good idea just because of some of the skin allergies involved these days and you may want to mention it is left in if your selling it just because there are apperently ppl allergic to it (who knew) :???:


----------



## Lindy (Feb 28, 2013)

I can tell you that in the UK it is required that you put it on your labels as it is in the soap....  Let me see if I can find out the specific formulae.  It is the reason I suggested that it be put on after the oils but before additives.


----------



## Kansas Farm Girl (Feb 28, 2013)

I like to label my ingredients as "Raw ingredients:...."  or "Made with:...." I don't list glycerin but I do talk about it and let people know that one of the by-products of the soap making process is glycerin, which is not removed from the finished product (I have never figured out how they do that).


----------



## Lindy (Feb 28, 2013)

Here it is:


> 1 g NaOH produces 0.77g Glycerine in the soaping reaction.


This is quoted from a UK Safety Assessor.....

So on your label you are going to put the glycerin in where it fits into the ingredient list and I was mistaken on my earlier post.  When I do the calculations I see that in most of my recipes the glycerin is coming in third on my list ahead of 2 of my oils..... :???:

Thank you for making me go back, check my notes and then calculate it through.  I like to look at what the EU is doing, not because I think theirs is a better way, but because it allows me to take what I feel is the best of what they are doing (thank heaven we don't have to declare the allergens) and combine it with what I am required to do here in Canada to give my customers the best information.


----------



## melstan775 (Feb 28, 2013)

Kansas Farm Girl said:


> I like to label my ingredients as "Raw ingredients:...."  or "Made with:...." I don't list glycerin but I do talk about it and let people know that one of the by-products of the soap making process is glycerin, which is not removed from the finished product (I have never figured out how they do that).



yeah I want to know how they do that too!


----------



## Relle (Feb 28, 2013)

A post from the forum - Glycerin as a by product of soap making -

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/f11/glycerin-product-soap-making-30304/


----------



## Lindy (Feb 28, 2013)

From what I understand (and I'm not 100% sure) by adding salt you can get the glycerin to separate out.  It's one of the reasons that homesteader lye soap was so harsh.  They were working with Potassium Hydroxide which is what we use for liquid soaps, so to get it come together they "salted" the soap to get it to form into something solid.  Unfortunately they left behind the glycerin.

At least that is my understanding.


----------



## Lindy (Feb 28, 2013)

Relle9 said:


> A post from the forum - Glycerin as a by product of soap making -
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/f11/glycerin-product-soap-making-30304/



I remember that post!  There were points my eyes crossed.  That's why I was so thrilled when Scott posted the easy calculation using the NaOH because otherwise it is really hard to calculate with different SF's....


----------



## SudsyKat (Feb 28, 2013)

Thank you all so much for the great input! Very helpful indeed! I'm not sure what I'll do yet, but it's good to have some options.


----------



## melstan775 (Feb 28, 2013)

judymoody said:


> But seriously, if you buy packaged baked goods, you get full ingredients - water, flour, sugar, oil, eggs, etc.  It doesn't say "cake."




This.  You don't need to list "salt" or "soap" on your ingredient list either, yet salt+ glycerin = soap. you're only required to do which salts. And only if you choose the INCI listing. Raw ingredients are allowed as well.


----------



## Lindy (Feb 28, 2013)

Actually if you are listing it as Sodium Olivate you are saying this is the salt created by Olive oil, so you are listing the salt.


----------



## Lindy (Feb 28, 2013)

I think you also need to look at where you are - in Canada we are required to list using INCI.  At this point Glycerin is optional as technically Sodium Olivate is stating that this ingredient is the salts = glycerin created by combining lye & Olive oil.  It really is how far do you want to go on your disclosure.  We are also required to label in both English & French.


----------



## melstan775 (Mar 1, 2013)

Lindy said:


> Actually if you are listing it as Sodium Olivate you are saying this is the salt created by Olive oil, so you are listing the salt.



That's what I said.  You're only required to do which salt,and only if you're listing in INCI.


----------



## Lindy (Mar 1, 2013)

Sorry Melstan - I missed that.... :eh:


----------



## SudsyKat (Mar 1, 2013)

I think I'll just end up using the "what I put in it" line of reasoning. Just easier, I suppose. And if people want to know what sodium hydroxide is/does, I'll tell 'em! I have not thoroughly researched US requirements, but I'm assuming that listing the INCI names of everythiing you put into the product would be acceptable. In any case, you all are a wealth of information - thank you!


----------



## Genny (Mar 1, 2013)

SudsyKat said:


> I have not thoroughly researched US requirements, but I'm assuming that listing the INCI names of everythiing you put into the product would be acceptable.



It's the preferred method by the FDA.


----------



## dudeitsashley (Mar 11, 2013)

I recently found the Saponifed terms on WSP and I was wondering if I use the terms on that page for my ingredient list do I still need to list my water and sodium hydroxide?


----------



## melstan775 (Mar 11, 2013)

I wouldn't think so because by stating you have sodium palmate, for example, you are stating the palm oil has been saponified by lye.


----------



## dudeitsashley (Mar 11, 2013)

melstan775 said:


> I wouldn't think so because by stating you have sodium palmate, for example, you are stating the palm oil has been saponified by lye.



Thanks melstan775, it seems like a silly question now. What about if I were to use goat's milk or beer?


----------



## danahuff (Mar 11, 2013)

You can say "saponified oils of olive, coconut, etc." I think that introduces a new layer of confusion because what customer knows what "saponified" means? Seems like a dodge to hide the use of lye. David Fisher has a good article about labeling: http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapglossary/a/soaplabeling.htm.


----------



## dudeitsashley (Mar 11, 2013)

danahuff said:


> You can say "saponified oils of olive, coconut, etc." I think that introduces a new layer of confusion because what customer knows what "saponified" means? Seems like a dodge to hide the use of lye. David Fisher has a good article about labeling: http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapglossary/a/soaplabeling.htm.



Thank you danahuff!! That was a huge help!


----------



## danahuff (Mar 12, 2013)

You are welcome. I found his guidance very helpful, myself.


----------



## Lindy (Mar 12, 2013)

Using the INCI names allows you to make a more professional and accurate label.  As a side not you do need to list your water on your label as it is still in the soap use it is complete.  You do not need to include lye if you are using INCI because there is no lye present at the end of the process and the INCI describes the properties of the oil once saponification is complete.


----------



## dudeitsashley (Mar 12, 2013)

Lindy said:


> Using the INCI names allows you to make a more professional and accurate label.  As a side not you do need to list your water on your label as it is still in the soap use it is complete.  You do not need to include lye if you are using INCI because there is no lye present at the end of the process and the INCI describes the properties of the oil once saponification is complete.



I am having a "duh" moment haha, but if you don't mind could you give me a sample INCI?


----------



## Lindy (Mar 12, 2013)

Olive Oil Soap = Sodium Olivate
Coconut Oil Soap = Sodium Cocoate
Cocoa Butter Soap = Sodium Cacao Butterate
Water = Aqua
Goat Milk = Caprae Lac
Egg = Ovum

etc.


----------



## dudeitsashley (Mar 13, 2013)

God you guys are going to be annoyed by me asking so many questions haha. So when listing colorants for example Sparkle Gold Mica: INCI: Mica, Titanium dioxide, Iron oxide. Is that the proper way to list it on the ingredients list?


----------



## Genny (Mar 13, 2013)

dudeitsashley said:


> So when listing colorants for example Sparkle Gold Mica: INCI: Mica, Titanium dioxide, Iron oxide. Is that the proper way to list it on the ingredients list?



Well, you wouldn't actually write INCI, but yeah otherwise it's right


----------



## Lindy (Mar 13, 2013)

You should write it as :

 _*Mica (&) Titanium dioxide (&) Iron oxide*__*;*_


----------



## dudeitsashley (Mar 14, 2013)

Genny said:


> Well, you wouldn't actually write INCI, but yeah otherwise it's right



Lol thanks I got a good chuckle reading that


----------

