# Shaving soap with NAOH and KOH?



## Mighty Mama (Jul 6, 2014)

After three years of making hot and cold process soap, I have been approached to make a shaving soap for a local barber shop.  I've spent some time researching only to find out I actually need to use a 60/40 percentage of KOH and NAOH as well as stearic acid.  My only problem is that there doesn't seem to be a soap calculator that lets me work with both chemicals.  

If I use Soap Calc and work out the recipe first for the NAOH and then for the KOH, how do I know how much water to add as each one shows a different amount.  

If any of you out there has any tips for me I would be most grateful!


----------



## Seawolfe (Jul 6, 2014)

This calculator lets you enter both NaOH and KOH, but it does not calculate for 90% KOH (which seems to be the most common in the US), and as I recall it was missing one oil I wanted to use - but it does let you enter the SAP value manually so that worked. I think I just went back and forth between that one and soapcalc till I got numbers that made sense. 

The other way would be to enter 40% of your oil weight into soap calc for the NaOH and do it again with 60% of the weight for KOH and then add the two water results for the whole recipe.


----------



## Corinne (Jul 6, 2014)

Forgive me if I sound a little stupid for asking this, because I only started CP soaping very recently, but... why do you need the KOH and stearic acid?

From my understanding those aren't necessary at all unless, of course, you are trying to make more of a whip/butter type soap rather than a solid soap?

If you want to make a shaving soap that is CP or HP you only need a greater ratio of oils which produce more lather (like castor oil) and a bit of bentonite clay to help wick and give "slip" to it from my understanding. I've been looking into this too as I want to start making a shave soap bar.

Is the barber shop who requested it looking for a shaving "cream" or an actual bar soap that they would lather up with a brush? This makes a huge difference!

Sorry if this is completely unrelated, I just don't quite understand it fully. Like I said, I'm rather new to this whole soaping thing, so forgive me if I say anything stupid!


----------



## Seawolfe (Jul 6, 2014)

I can't speak for the OP, but after reading this thread, I used both NaOH and KOH because I wanted a puck with the lather boost from the KOH. Plus it sounded interesting and rolling out the soap like cookie dough as DeAnna suggested let me try 4 different scent combos. Not a stupid question at all 

Edit to add, it's late and I'm tired and I can't remember why I used the stearic, but I'm sure there was a very good reason. It's a nice shaving soap.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 6, 2014)

KOH is usually used in shave soap to increase the solubility of the soap. Stearic is important because it creates a dense, long lasting, cushiony lather that protects the face during shaving and increases the closeness of the shave.

When you add a lot of stearic acid to a soap recipe, whether the stearic comes from tallow/lard/palm or is added directly as a separate ingredient, it reduces the solubility a lot. Adding KOH compensates for that. 

Theoretically a shave soap can be made without KOH, but it won't lather as well as the same recipe made with KOH. The % of KOH can range from, oh, about 60% up to 100%.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34264


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 6, 2014)

"...If you want to make a shaving soap that is CP or HP you only need a greater ratio of oils which produce more lather (like castor oil) and a bit of bentonite clay to help wick and give "slip" to it from my understanding...."

I think you'll find, if you research the matter further, that these ideas are "common wisdom" amongst many soapers. This "wisdom" isn't necessarily accepted by the wet-shaving community, however, and those fellows are the ones to please, not the soapers. I've seen a fair number of soapers who start with a nice bath bar recipe, add a little clay, and think it's a shave soap. The wet shaving community is far more particular. They are quite divided about the use of clay -- some like it, some don't. Some well respected commercial shave soaps do not have any clay. Castor may or may not be in a good shave soap. What IS in a good shave soap is a high % of stearic acid along with other ingredients that contribute to a dense, long lasting, cushiony lather.

Edit: And castor enhances lather, but it does not produce lather in and of itself.


----------



## Seawolfe (Jul 6, 2014)

Yeah like that


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 6, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> "...If you want to make a shaving soap that is CP or HP you only need a greater ratio of oils which produce more lather (like castor oil) and a bit of bentonite clay to help wick and give "slip" to it from my understanding...."
> 
> I think you'll find, if you research the matter further, that these ideas are "common wisdom" amongst many soapers. This "wisdom" isn't necessarily accepted by the wet-shaving community, however, and those fellows are the ones to please, not the soapers...............



This!  You're not making a soap, you're making a shaving soap - for that, you need to look at things totally differently

Please think twice before using clays and things - people are often either for or against, but the best idea is to make a good shaving soap that doesn't need it - some people say it dulls the razor faster, others that it can do some serious damage to the blade - this is not a good things, so err on the side of caution and leave the dirt in the garden.

The Songwind thread is what I consider to be the starting place for people looking to make a shaving soap - so much knowledge in that thread from so many soapers, it is unreal.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 6, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> Some well respected commercial shave soaps do not have any clay.



Taking this statement one step further... No large scale manufacturer I know of uses clay in their soap. Only small craft soapers use clay in their shaving soap. AFAIK. Could be wrong, there might be some foreign manufacturer that does. But IIRC none of the big names do. Which would be Mitchell's, DRH, T&H, MdC, Proraso, Tcheung Fu Tsing (sp), Edwin Jagger, Tabac, Arko (I think, never looked), etc etc. Cheaper/junker brands (ie Williams) may, but since I never looked and since they are crummy anyway, I don't count them.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 6, 2014)

Nope, Williams mug doesn't. I haven't seen clay listed in any of the other "big name" shave soaps I've looked at either. But there may be smaller makers who use clay in their formulations with success. I'm not the last word on this type of thing, most definitely.


----------



## alaskazimm (Jul 7, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Please think twice before using clays and things - people are often either for or against, but the best idea is to make a good shaving soap that doesn't need it - some people say it dulls the razor faster, others that it can do some serious damage to the blade - this is not a good things, so err on the side of caution and leave the dirt in the garden.



FWIW, I mainly use artisan shave soaps that all use clay (either bentonite or kaolin) and I haven't noticed my blades dulling any faster or any physical damage to the blades or razor. I DE shave and haven't used a straight, yet anyway.


----------



## Mighty Mama (Jul 7, 2014)

Wow...thanks for all your very insightful replies everyone!  

I made a trial soap yesterday with 20% of each coconut oil, avocado oil, shea and cocoa butter and 20% Stearic acid.  It has left me with a bar that is quite soft in feel (it was made with 40% NAOH and 60% KOH) and which lathers incredibly compared to my 'regular' soaps.  The foam is just so much denser and thicker and has more structure than the foam from my bar soaps.  

I watched a video on You Tube yesterday where a guy has testers of various amounts of Stearic acid in soap.  The 60% one is so much fluffier and copious than the 20% Stearic Acid that I will probably try making that today just to see what the difference is.

Is it better to melt the Stearic in the microwave before adding it?  Last time I added it directly to trace and not sure that it dissolved properly.

I would like to try a batch with bentonite but not if its going to dull the razor.  Just want to make sure the soap has enough slip without it though!  I also added glycerin to the recipe and that may also not be necessary....figuring it out as I go.  

Thanks again for all your comments.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 7, 2014)

Have you read the Songwind thread "My first shaving soap is a success"? There is so much info there, it is simply a must read.

@alaskazimm, do you know how much of it they add?  It would be interesting to see if there is a sweet spot between enough to add slip and so much that it causes issues.  That said, if I can make a shave product without it, that would be my first choice, personally.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 7, 2014)

"... Last time I added it directly to trace and not sure that it dissolved properly...."

I'd be willing to bet it didn't, unless your batter was above 160 deg F. That is roughly the melt temperature of stearic. It really needs to be fully melted to give good results.


----------



## Lindy (Jul 7, 2014)

Mighty Mama you had the percentages backwards.


 I use kaolin clay in and mine is very popular with the wet shaving community.


----------



## shunt2011 (Jul 7, 2014)

You need to melt the stearic in with your other oils.  It won't dissolve properly added at trace if at all.


----------



## Seawolfe (Jul 7, 2014)

From that monster shaving soap thread, DeAnna pointed out that melting the stearic by itself and then mixing it in might be a better idea, because the stearic melts at a higher temp than the other fats, and you don't necessarily want to overheat them all.


----------



## Lindy (Jul 7, 2014)

I just put the Stearic in with my oils...


----------



## songwind (Jul 7, 2014)

Seawolfe said:


> From that monster shaving soap thread, DeAnna pointed out that melting the stearic by itself and then mixing it in might be a better idea, because the stearic melts at a higher temp than the other fats, and you don't necessarily want to overheat them all.



But if the rest of the oils are at a temperature lower than the melting point of stearic, and you add the stearic to them, isn't there a chance you could lower the stearic below its melting point and cause it to recrystalize?

It takes a while, but I usually just put everything in the crock pot and turn it on. Then I do something else for an hour while it melts, and add in the lye once it's all liquid.


----------



## songwind (Jul 7, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Mighty Mama you had the percentages backwards.
> 
> 
> I use kaolin clay in and mine is very popular with the wet shaving community.



What's your brand/site? I see guys on the forums frequently asking about Canadian artisans that aren't being rebranded as RazoRock and I don't have anyone to suggest to them.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 7, 2014)

songwind said:


> But if the rest of the oils are at a temperature lower than the melting point of stearic, and you add the stearic to them, isn't there a chance you could lower the stearic below its melting point and cause it to recrystalize?
> 
> It takes a while, but I usually just put everything in the crock pot and turn it on. Then I do something else for an hour while it melts, and add in the lye once it's all liquid.



I agree with Songwind.

Do we even use any oils with a smoke point so low? (150/160 degrees F).


----------



## alaskazimm (Jul 7, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> @alaskazimm, do you know how much of it they add?  It would be interesting to see if there is a sweet spot between enough to add slip and so much that it causes issues.  That said, if I can make a shave product without it, that would be my first choice, personally.



I don't know the exact percentage, but the clay is listed last or second to last so it can't be a lot.
But I was wrong, one of my top artisan soaps does not have clay in it and I really can't tell any significant difference in slip or feel between that one and the ones that use clay. Apparently clay is not the magic bullet or the monster it's sometimes made out to be.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 7, 2014)

I think it's added at 1TB or TSP PPO. You'll know if you added too much if it gets gritty.



> Apparently clay is not the magic bullet or the monster it's sometimes made out to be.



I agree with this statement. If it does dull a razor, it's on the order of 5% faster, so unnoticeable unless you use a straight razor and count your shaves & strops.


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 7, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It would be interesting to see if there is a sweet spot between enough to add slip and so much that it causes issues. That said, if I can make a shave product without it, that would be my first choice, personally.



For what it's worth, I use 2 tsp. ppo of kaolin clay in mine.

I talked to my hubby this morning about all the things that have been discussed in this thread, and even though he always constantly raves about my shave soap (he's been shaving with it for about 5 years now), I asked him again if there was anything about it that he would change (based on the discussion in this thread), and he said 'no'. He loves how it gives him a very smooth gliding shave with absolutely no nicks or cuts, and he also loves how nice it makes his skin feel afterwards (no drying or tightness).

He also reports that my soap hasn't caused any dulling issues or breakage to his razor. He has never used a straight razor, but he uses either cartridge razors or his trusty DE razor given to him by my grandmother. 

However.........in spite of his wonderfully glowing testimony, I told him that I shall be conducting a couple of experiments on my shave soap formula.....more for my sake than for his (at least for now, at any rate). I told him not to worry because I would not be changing anything in the formula except for the lye: i.e., instead of the 100% NaOH that I normally use in it, I shall try a combo of varying amounts of NaOH and KOH- just to see if it helps to improve the 'ease of lather' factor. 

If I haven't said so before, I think it's wonderful that we have accumulated so many wet-shaving gents here on the forum. If it were not for you all (and DeeAnna and Lindy, too), and all the ensuing shaving discussions, it would never had occurred to me to use a mixture of lyes (instead of messing with my fatty acid profile) to improve the ever elusive 'ease of lather' factor in my formula. What a huge revelation that is to me! I send you all a big "Thank You!". :grin::clap:


IrishLass


----------



## Lindy (Jul 7, 2014)

songwind said:


> What's your brand/site? I see guys on the forums frequently asking about Canadian artisans that aren't being rebranded as RazoRock and I don't have anyone to suggest to them.


 
 I'm Malaspina Soap Factory (www.malaspinasoapfactory.ca)

 Thanks for thinking of me.  I have a few wholesale customers in the US that sell my soap under their brand on Amazon and one sells it through his store.

 I have both solid and cream


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 7, 2014)

"...Do we even use any oils with a smoke point so low? (150/160 degrees F). ..."

Uh, I'm not sure why the issue of smoke point is coming up. Care to clarify that, WSP? 

"... isn't there a chance you could lower the stearic below its melting point and cause it to recrystalize?..."

It's certainly possible depending on the method one uses. I'm adding my melted stearic to a partially saponified HP batter that, by the time I add the melted stearic, is probably around 160 deg F. So this has not been an issue for me.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 7, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> "...Do we even use any oils with a smoke point so low? (150/160 degrees F). ..."
> 
> Uh, I'm not sure why the issue of smoke point is coming up. Care to clarify that, WSP?



I'm under the impression that oil won't burn until it hits the smoke point. Honestly, I've never encountered oil burn, so I'm going off of limited information.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 7, 2014)

"...oil won't burn until it hits the smoke point..."

The smoke point is the temperature at which the oil rapidly degrades, starts to carbonize, and releases the carbon and other oxidation products as visible smoke. But fats begin to to degrade by hydrolysis and oxidation at temperatures far lower than their smoke point. 

Higher temperature for a longer time => more rapid breakdown. Even in the freezer, fats will eventually degrade and smell "off". I don't see the point in heating fats, whether I'm cooking or soaping, any higher or longer than is necessary to get the job done. Whether I can see or smell the degradation or not is beside the point -- my training tells me it is happening and I want to minimize that. Just me....


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 7, 2014)

And that's why I visit these forums daily atm.  Learn something each day.

So, what's the "safe" temperature for our oils? Is there a formula or guideline to follow?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 8, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> For what it's worth, I use 2 tsp. ppo of kaolin clay in mine...........................I told him that I shall be conducting a couple of experiments on my shave soap formula.............


 
As alaskazimm pointed out that the clay might be a bit of a placebo, could you please make an experiment of totally the usual recipe but with no clay as the only difference - just to see if he notices anything different?

I just find it interesting that some recipes need it, but others are fine with out it - does it make any difference?  If so, would the recipes that work with out it be even better with it?


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 8, 2014)

"...what's the "safe" temperature for our oils..."

I can't say anyone has written this out in stone.  

In my opinion, it is the lowest temp for the shortest time that gets the job done well. It's a little like cooking for me -- if the cake is perfectly baked after 30 minutes at 350 deg F, then don't bake it for 40 minutes at 375 ... or 20 minutes at 325. Just cuz one can, doesn't mean one should.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 8, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I just find it interesting that some recipes need it, but others are fine with out it - does it make any difference?  If so, would the recipes that work with out it be even better with it?



I'm fairly sure it's just an alternative to liquid glycerin. It does pretty much the same thing: absorb water and keep it on the skin.

Thus, you can swap them out and achieve a slightly different feel. Neither is "better", but they aren't identical either.

All, IMO though. No scientific or double blind studies/experiments behind this theory.


----------



## cpacamper (Jul 8, 2014)

RE clay, MWF and La Toja, are examples of the very slickest of shaving soaps.  Neither contain clays.  I try to avoid clay in shaving soaps I purchase,  but ymmv here.


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 9, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> As alaskazimm pointed out that the clay might be a bit of a placebo, could you please make an experiment of totally the usual recipe but with no clay as the only difference - just to see if he notices anything different?
> 
> I just find it interesting that some recipes need it, but others are fine with out it - does it make any difference? If so, would the recipes that work with out it be even better with it?


 
 Well, you and I are in luck, because I just happen to have on hand a batch of hubby's shaving soap that I made 3 years ago without clay. WooHoo! Goldmine! I had considered it to be a botched batch at the time because I had forgotten to add the clay to it. Otherwise, it was /still is perfectly good soap, but since it didn't have clay, I set it aside in a box until I could figure out what to do with it..... Well, I guess I now know what to do with it! 

 I'll have hubby shave with it and report back in!


 IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 9, 2014)

Okay- I'm back to report on my hubby's experience with the shave soap from my clay-less batch.

The batch was made using the exact same formula (and fragrance oil) as the bar he's currently been shaving with for the past couple of weeks, only it doesn't contain any clay. And coincidentally (as it turns out), both the clay bar he's been using these past few weeks, and the clay-less test bar are from batches that were made just 2 days apart from each other 3 years ago, which happily makes this comparison test all the more evenly conducted. 

Wow. Well, I don't really know exactly what I was expecting to hear back from my hubby, but it certainly wasn't what he just told me (which was very interesting).....

First, he said the soap lathered much more than the soap with clay: "lots more fluffy bubbles", he said. But in spite of more bubbles, he felt that the lather didn't provide as good of a cushion or glide, wasn't as thick or creamy, and it fizzled out quicker (the staying power was diminished).

He also said his skin felt a bit dry/tight afterward and his after-shave burned him a bit when he applied it, which normally does not happen.

Well, after his report, in spite of me knowing better, out of a burst of temporary insanity/impulsive curiosity I sneaked off to the bathroom and tongue-tested the soap just in case by some weird, bizarre, freaky off-chance it might zappy or something, but it was as mild and benign as could be- just the same as it was when I checked it after I first made it 3 years ago. I felt pretty darn silly about it afterward, but at least I can now say I _doubly_ know for sure his dryness and burning was not caused by lye-heavy soap. lol :razz: 

Well.... as I was saying, all that he reported really surprised me, and I'm not quite sure what to make out of all of it yet, but one thing is for sure- the clay seems to be doing something good in my particular formula. I just never imagined it was doing anything more than providing some glide, so this little comparison experiment has been very good and informative for me.

Needless to say, I think I shall be keeping the clay in my formula, no doubt about it! 

I'm excited to make my mixed NaOH/KOH batch and see what he thinks of that. I have everything weighed out except for my lye(s) and water. I hope to get it soaped tonight before I go to bed!


 IrishLass


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 10, 2014)

Clay absorbs water. It also thickens a formula. So, for a shave it does the following:

1. Keeps the lather wet
2. Helps keep the lather stable
3. The water improves glide

But it's not really the clay per se that's working. It's the water that the clay is holding. So, if you reformulated the base formula so that the lather was more stable and creamy, then you could probably use less clay.

You can also try replacing clay with glycerin.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 10, 2014)

I jolly well love science!  Thanks, Lass - that's very cool.  But as Wet says, I think I'll look to go down a glycerin route more than anything else.


----------



## Mighty Mama (Jul 10, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Mighty Mama you had the percentages backwards.
> 
> 
> I use kaolin clay in and mine is very popular with the wet shaving community.




Which percentages are backward please?  I used 60% KOH and 40% NAOH which I got to after checking out several sites.  It has left me with a firm but sticky puck of soap - the right consistency for shaving soap


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 10, 2014)

Mighty Mama said:


> ............ It has left me with a firm but sticky puck of soap - the right consistency for shaving soap


 
THE right consistency?  Aren't there many possible consistencies for good shaving soaps?


----------



## Lindy (Jul 10, 2014)

Mighty Mama said:


> Which percentages are backward please? I used 60% KOH and 40% NAOH which I got to after checking out several sites. It has left me with a firm but sticky puck of soap - the right consistency for shaving soap


 
 Most people do the lye opposite to you.  However if it's working for you then you're golden.  You had asked about it not being hard enough so I was answering that question.


----------



## cpacamper (Jul 10, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Most people do the lye opposite to you. However if it's working for you then you're golden. You had asked about it not being hard enough so I was answering that question.



Newb here playing with lye percentages myself. I'm trying to emulate hard pucks like vintage Williams, DR Harris, Mitchel's Wool Fat, old formula AOS, and Czech and Speake, etc. In the very basic formulation I'm playing with (65% tallow, 25% stearic acid, 10% coconut oil) a 60% KOH/40% NaOH lye split is too soft for what I'm looking for. 60/40 the other way was still a bit soft.  While 70-30 is hard enough, making lathering a bit more of a challenge that I'd like. I might try 65 NaOH/35 KOH. Plus, I'd like a bit more moisturizing. I'm thinking of bumping the tallow and reducing the stearic by 2.5% each to see if that makes any difference.


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 10, 2014)

wetshavingproducts said:


> Clay absorbs water. It also thickens a formula. So, for a shave it does the following:
> 
> 1. Keeps the lather wet
> 2. Helps keep the lather stable
> ...



Thank you kindly! 

Re: replacing clay with glycerin: actually, my formula already contains a goodly amount of extra/added glycerin in addition to the naturally occurring amount of glycerin which already exists as a byproduct of the saponification reaction. Taken together, I suppose I would guestimate that my formula contains a total of at least 20 to 25% glycerin already.

I'm just afraid of what adding more  glycerin might do to the soap, i.e., I would hate for it to start weeping like a salt bar or sweating like an M&P glycerin soap, or becoming softer/stickier in texture (it's normal 'feel' is hard, and pleasantly dry and velvety).

Re: reformulation: Hmmm... I don't know, wetshavingproducts.... I must be honest.....just the thought of going back to the drawing board to overhaul my entire formula in order to compensate for omitting only one ingredient- the clay- makes me feel like running for the hills like a crazed madwoman! :crazy:  lol I can imagine it now..... someone will find me lying half-conscious under a tree muttering over and over again, 'no clay, no clay,.......must... get... rid.. of... clay..." lol 

It's just that I worked so hard on it to get it to where hubby says he absolutely loves everything about it, even if he has to apply a little elbow grease at the beginning to get the lather going (my 'wet-shaving afficianado' tester said the same to me as well).

I guess if I ever decided to market/sell my shave soap to the public, I might think differently and put the extra effort in, but since my only target market is my very spoilt, but sweet hubby (imagine having a soap designed especially for you! lol), the only thing I have an enthusiastic mind and will to improve upon for now is that ever illusive 'ease of lather' factor by introducing varying amounts of KOH into my formula. I'll let y'all know how that goes! 

IrishLass


----------



## Lindy (Jul 10, 2014)

cpacamper said:


> Newb here playing with lye percentages myself. I'm trying to emulate hard pucks like vintage Williams, DR Harris, Mitchel's Wool Fat, old formula AOS, and Czech and Speake, etc. In the very basic formulation I'm playing with (65% tallow, 25% stearic acid, 10% coconut oil) a 60% KOH/40% NaOH lye split is too soft for what I'm looking for. 60/40 the other way was still a bit soft. While 70-30 is hard enough, making lathering a bit more of a challenge that I'd like. I might try 65 NaOH/35 KOH. Plus, I'd like a bit more moisturizing. I'm thinking of bumping the tallow and reducing the stearic by 2.5% each to see if that makes any difference.



Once you know what the industry standard is you have lots of room to play.  I doubt 2.5% is going to make much of a difference, more likely to make a difference is your additives.  Look for additives that make a difference to conditioning.

*IrishLass*  Thank you for doing that experiment, now I know I am not going to take out my clay... LOL


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 11, 2014)

Lindy said:


> *IrishLass* Thank you for doing that experiment, now I know I am not going to take out my clay... LOL


 
 If it's not broke, don't fix it. 8)

 Hubby tried my clay-less shave soap again this morning just to see whether or not he would get the same results he got from it during yesterday's shave, and sure enough, he wasn't imagining things- he got the same exact, undesirable results today that he got yesterday. The clay-less soap has now been decisively ejected from his shaving mug in favor of the one made with clay.  

 I made my experimental 90% NaOH/10% KOH test batch of my regular shave soap formula this evening (with the clay, of course ). I can hardly wait for it to cure so hubby can test it out!  I'm also going to try making another test batch of the same, but with 80% NaOH and 20% KOH.

 IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Jul 11, 2014)

No dirt in my shaving soap please!  

Aside from reading the thread Songwind started, try this:  52% Stearic, 48% Coconut, KOH only, 5% superfat.  HP only (or do take a video with sound so we can hear you swearing!).  Let someone experienced with shaving soaps try it and start from there.  That will give you the quickest/easiest example of what can be a good shaving soap and let you see all of the properties that are so different from a cleansing soap.

Starting with that I actually found I could go with less foam so I started subbing out the coconut for others, but that basic formula is so much better than what you can buy in a store and so simple to whip up, it's ridiculous.

No it won't make a puck, we call it a "croap", a cross between a cream and a soap.  Typically one would load a wet brush for 20-30 seconds and then lather in a bowl.

Also, and please excuse me if it sounds like a beginner lecturing experienced soapers but this is an observation:  The Songwind thread is an EXCELLENT example of where folks go wrong by overthinking it.  I know there's folks on here who may make a business of creating and selling fantastic soaps.  If you are that person then I'm pleased to have folks like you around to learn from.  If I may be so bold though: don't over-think this.  Don't add clay, oatmeal, honey, seaweed, or oil of unicorn.  Understand this is not soap that is supposed to be in a pretty shape, a pretty color, or have magical properties.  It's a vital part of a man's grooming regimen and the first thing we want is a shaving soap that lets us shave.  Get that down and then "enhance" as needed.

Being a HP soap it really lends itself well to a small/quick batch.  I can make a 100g batch and shave with it that day.  Attached is the recipe for the very first soap I made inspired by the same information that lead to Sonwind's post.  If that was the only soap ever available for the rest of my life, I'd be okay.

ETA:  I only saw the first page when I wrote this - I failed to see that it's 5 pages long.  I still earnestly believe every bit of what I wrote however.  IrishLass, if my dearest made me soap I would indeed count myself a lucky man.  She does not (I'll still keep her!) so this is what I learned in a few years of really learning about (commercial) shaving soaps.  I agree, no need to send yourself off the deep end by trying to remove clay because some moron (me) said no dirt.  Your recipe works and that's awesome.  My comments were more toward someone just taking on a shaving soap. 

View attachment MdeC Clone.pdf


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 11, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Aside from reading the thread Songwind started, try this: 52% Stearic, 48% Coconut, KOH only, 5% superfat. HP only (or do take a video with sound so we can hear you swearing!).



LOL Actually, Songwind's recipe is still on my 'must make' roster, seeing as how I love to experiment with interesting soaps and/or techniques that I've never tried before.

I thought Songwind's thread was amazing, too! I don't know if hubby will like the resulting soap or not, but he's always wonderful about being game enough to at least try whatever I make for him (whether it be soap or food). Sometimes it works out great........ and sometimes.....well.... not so great. lol But he's always willing to try. I'll make sure to post my results with Songwind's recipe! 



LBussy said:


> ETA: I only saw the first page when I wrote this - I failed to see that it's 5 pages long. I still earnestly believe every bit of what I wrote however. IrishLass, if my dearest made me soap I would indeed count myself a lucky man. She does not (I'll still keep her!) so this is what I learned in a few years of really learning about (commercial) shaving soaps. I agree, no need to send yourself off the deep end by trying to remove clay because some moron (me) said no dirt. Your recipe works and that's awesome. My comments were more toward someone just taking on a shaving soap.



All I can say is that I'm _soooo_ glad I read your post all the way down to the very bottom. lol I shall remove my clay-less bar out of its slingshot and go put it safely away back in its box now. 

By the way, I love the passion you have for shave soap, and I found your imput to be very helpful, even if we don't agree upon the addition of clay.

The longer I've made soap, the more and more I've come to appreciate how so much can depend on individual preference and skin-type, i.e., what works fantastic for one doesn't always necessarily work as fantastically for another. 

I wonder, too, how much the overall hairiness of a man factors into the equation. Although my hubby needs to shave everyday or else he turns into a "scruffy looking nerf-herder" (one of my favorite Princess Leia lines from The Empire Strikes Back), he not hairy enough to grow an appreciably ample beard. Maybe that plays a part, too? Any thoughts?

IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Jul 11, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> LOL Actually, Songwind's recipe is still on my 'must make' roster, seeing as how I love to experiment with interesting soaps and/or techniques that I've never tried before.


Even if your hubby does not like it, you will know what many people consider a standard. It's an emulation of Martin de Candre shaving soap base and people pay $60+ a tub for it.  Of course if you look on the Shaving forums, some people swear by Arko too so there's definitely no accounting for taste.  

I would not seek out Arko, but if you happen across a stick - grab it just for a reference.  Fantastic lather, horrible smell (well, some people like it).  It's a very good tallow-based shaving soap.



> But he's always willing to try. I'll make sure to post my results with Songwind's recipe!


I have my own Irish Lass here and I'd try anything she put in front of me.  



> All I can say is that I'm _soooo_ glad I read your post all the way down to the very bottom. lol I shall remove my clay-less bar out of its slingshot and go put it safely away back in its box now.


Yeah pretty sure I heard some guns cocking.  Sometimes my enthusiasm in real life comes off as just plain nasty in print so I read it over a few times before posting.  It's still probably a lot less smooth than I would have liked.



> I wonder, too, how much the overall hairiness of a man factors into the equation. Although my hubby needs to shave everyday or else he turns into a "scruffy looking nerf-herder" (one of my favorite Princess Leia lines from The Empire Strikes Back), he not hairy enough to grow an appreciably ample beard. Maybe that plays a part, too? Any thoughts?


Love me some Star Wars!

My beard is ... well, ample.  I am a fur bearing mammal.  If steel wool ever became scarce I would be in demand for shearing.  I am sure I represent a small percentage of really thick beard growing people but that may (or may not) mean I represent a worst case.  It seems like it sometimes.  There's folks out there who are perfectly happy with melt and pour "artisan shaving soap" and then there's me who unfortunately has sensitive skin AND a thick beard.

I've also started shaving with straights and they have a way of let's say highlighting mistakes, shortcomings and carelessness.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 11, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> I wonder, too, how much the overall hairiness of a man factors into the equation. Although my hubby needs to shave everyday or else he turns into a "scruffy looking nerf-herder" (one of my favorite Princess Leia lines from The Empire Strikes Back), he not hairy enough to grow an appreciably ample beard. Maybe that plays a part, too? Any thoughts?
> 
> IrishLass



Absolutely unrelated to soap. Completely relevant and a key factor in choosing a razor and does factor into brush preference, but I've never heard anyone relate beard to shave soap.

Information and conclusions based upon my experiences so far in life.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 11, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Even if your hubby does not like it, you will know what many people consider a standard. It's an emulation of Martin de Candre shaving soap base and people pay $60+ a tub for it.  Of course if you look on the Shaving forums, some people swear by Arko too so there's definitely no accounting for taste.
> 
> I would not seek out Arko, but if you happen across a stick - grab it just for a reference.  Fantastic lather, horrible smell (well, some people like it).  It's a very good tallow-based shaving soap.



At least steer her towards Tabac.  The scent may be polarizing, but apparently Tabac is famous for it. Read a blog post about fragrance oils and Tabac was mentioned as a pioneer in men's fragrances. Who knew!

I'd like to figure out a Tabac dupe and change that "old man" scent.


----------



## LBussy (Jul 11, 2014)

Over the last several years I've never tried Tabac somehow.  I'll have to remember to add it to my next order from one of my suppliers.  I do enjoy reading what people say about it though


----------



## Lindy (Jul 11, 2014)

Or try Mitchell's Wool Fat!  Awesome commercial soap.  A little hard to lather until you learn its tricks.

 As for hairiness I have one customer who tells me his beard is also made of steel but finds my shaving soap works for him and it does have dirt  in it


----------



## LBussy (Jul 11, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Or try Mitchell's Wool Fat!  Awesome commercial soap.  A little hard to lather until you learn its tricks.


It's "on the list" to try, although I'm afraid I might be disappointed after using soaps with an appreciable amount of lanolin in them.



wetshavingproducts said:


> Absolutely unrelated to soap. Completely relevant and a key factor in choosing a razor and does factor into brush preference, but I've never heard anyone relate beard to shave soap.





Lindy said:


> As for hairiness I have one customer who tells me his beard is also made of steel but finds my shaving soap works for him and it does have dirt  in it


I do find a soap can have a positive impact on tougher beards.  A real soap performs better than a commercial detergent in that respect because of the difference in pH.  Just like hair straighteners, curl solutions, and chemical depilatory solutions soften hair (or dissolve them), the higher pH of real shaving soap definitely softens the hair shaft if allowed to work just a bit.  I commonly do a quick light load, and then lay that on my face to work while I do a real brush load and lather building.

Has nothing to do with dirt though.  

The oldest razor I shave with was made circa 1865.  I will not use a soap with clay near them.  I might experiment with a DE but clay and my straights will not cross paths.  If you consider bentonite regularly runs in the 0.3µ range and the diamond lapping spray we use to finish our razors is 0.1µ, there's just no reason to risk it and every reason to believe it could be a bad thing.


----------



## Lindy (Jul 11, 2014)

Great information.  I have to admit I'm one of those that are going the way of "if it ain't broke don't fix it"  I get regularly good reviews from people on Badger & Blade in fact I used several as test subjects to fine tune the soap.  

 I thought Mitchells was tallow and lanolin?  I must be losing my mind.  I have tried it (yes I'm a wet shave - DE although I have used shavettes) and I really liked it.


----------



## LBussy (Jul 11, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Great information.  I have to admit I'm one of those that are going the way of "if it ain't broke don't fix it"  I get regularly good reviews from people on Badger & Blade in fact I used several as test subjects to fine tune the soap.


I agree - but that has to go for me too. :grin:



> thought Mitchells was tallow and lanolin?  I must be losing my mind.  I have tried it (yes I'm a wet shave - DE although I have used shavettes) and I really liked it.


I assumed it was - but the soap I have with lanolin REALLY leaves a lot of softness behind and I ass-u-me that there's no way a puck will leave the same amount of lanolin as a soft soap.  

Here's the ingredients from a quick Google:



> Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua, Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Hexyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, Lanolin, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Gluconate, Sodium Silicate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Magnesium Sulphate, Tetrasodium Etidronate.


I'm just not feeling the love here ... Lanolin is listed after all the EO/FO's and they should be what ... 5% total max?  Lots of stuff in there and now that I see it I don't want it on my face a whole bunch anymore.


----------



## Lindy (Jul 11, 2014)

If you use anything more than 5% you lose your lather.  Lanolin is one of those that less is better.


----------



## LBussy (Jul 11, 2014)

Lindy said:


> If you use anything more than 5% you lose your lather.  Lanolin is one of those that less is better.


That makes sense but here's where I'm either confused or did not state myself correctly:

I thought EO contribution was generally less than 5%.  I see more than one there:


Parfum
Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone
Hexyl Cinnamal
Limonene
Linalool
Hydroxycitronellal

If the total EO/FO contribution is 5%, then that means 0.83% of each of those assuming equal parts, and that would also mean that the Lanolin, following those, would also be at that level or lower.  Less than 1% in any case and that doesn't seem like enough to make a difference.

I say "seem like" because I am new at all this, I just know I put 5% in my soaps.


----------



## Lindy (Jul 12, 2014)

Parfum - *Fragrance oil*
Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone *masking agent*
Hexyl Cinnamal *Often used as a masking agent this is a part of Chamomile and is used in perfuming. It is a known allergen.*
Limonene - *Again part of an essential oil, citrus, which is obtained from oranges. It is done through centrifuge or steam distillation rather than the normal method of expressed from the peels.*
Linalool - *A terpene alcohol that is found in a lot of different plants/essential oils.*
Hydroxycitronellal - *This is a fragrance compound that can be used up to 5% according to IFRA.*
*I admit I had to look most of them up but I knew they weren't essential oils but rather composites of the essential oil. So in essence these are "parts" of essential oils but not essential oils in themselves.*


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 12, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I thought Mitchells was tallow and lanolin?  I must be losing my mind.  I have tried it (yes I'm a wet shave - DE although I have used shavettes) and I really liked it.



A few brands use lanolin, but it's not a main ingredient in any shaving soap. It's there as a conditioner. Like shea butter.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 12, 2014)

LBussy said:


> I do find a soap can have a positive impact on tougher beards.  A real soap performs better than a commercial detergent in that respect because of the difference in pH.  Just like hair straighteners, curl solutions, and chemical depilatory solutions soften hair (or dissolve them), the higher pH of real shaving soap definitely softens the hair shaft if allowed to work just a bit.  I commonly do a quick light load, and then lay that on my face to work while I do a real brush load and lather building.



I don't consider detergent to be soap. 

But, that's not what I meant. I meant that the beard doesn't influence the lather. AFAIK and have heard.

But, I don't know everything.


----------



## Lindy (Jul 12, 2014)

wetshavingproducts said:


> A few brands use lanolin, but it's not a main ingredient in any shaving soap. It's there as a conditioner. Like shea butter.



 Agreed and that is what I use it for in mine...


----------



## LBussy (Jul 12, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Parfum - *Fragrance oil*
> Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone *masking agent*
> Hexyl Cinnamal *Often used as a masking agent this is a part of Chamomile and is used in perfuming. It is a known allergen.*
> Limonene - *Again part of an essential oil, citrus, which is obtained from oranges. It is done through centrifuge or steam distillation rather than the normal method of expressed from the peels.*
> ...


I appreciate the rundown.  Still, one would not expect each of those to be at their maximum allowable amounts, right?  It's somewhere between a trace and 5% or so I'd think.  It makes no sense for any EO/FO to be at super high percentages but let's say total fragrance contribution is 8% (which seems very high).  That means the highest percentage of the lower component there would have to be at or less than 1.33%.  That in turn means the Lanolin contribution would be at or below that level since it comes after it in the list.  Or do I misunderstand the way the labels work?


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 12, 2014)

Well, most products are labeled incorrectly in the first place, and if you view the label as saying it's parfum (made up of these ingredients) then lanolin can come in at 4.9% if parfum is 5%.

But, I'm going to go with the incorrect label conclusion.


----------



## LBussy (Jul 12, 2014)

wetshavingproducts said:


> Well, most products are labeled incorrectly in the first place, and if you view the label as saying it's parfum (made up of these ingredients) then lanolin can come in at 4.9% if parfum is 5%.
> 
> But, I'm going to go with the incorrect label conclusion.


Well ... how are we supposed to steal their secrets if they do that!?


----------



## Lindy (Jul 12, 2014)

They are out of the UK where they have very stringent labeling laws so I am going to assume this one is honest. If the fragrance oil is at 5% which is pretty standard these others could also be used at their maximum allowing for the Lanolin to be anywhere from 2% - 4.9%.  Labeling requires that you put the highest first but sometimes the amount of the higher amount is not much more than others below it.  I doubt they would only put in 1 or 2% of lanolin, their branding is too important to them and they have been around for at least 100 years.  On the other hand if it was the same amount of the others then they could put lanolin further up on the label which is also acceptable.


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 16, 2014)

Well, I made my first combo batch of NaOH/KOH shave soap the other day, using my regular formula for hubby's shave soap, but silly me had to go and screw it up by miscalculating my total oil amount, and so I ended up having to rebatch it to fix my mistake. :twisted: I haven't had to rebatch in _years_, but I'm happy to report that it was a very good save and my soap is now fine and happily resting on my cure rack. Ahhhh!  

Sheesh! Trying to figure things out for 2 kinds of lye really threw me off my game, but my lesson has been learned and I'm good to go for the next one now! 

My next experiment is to do something really radical with my formula, just to see what happens: 64% KOH and 36% NaOH. And I'm going to split the batch into 2 parts- Part 1) all my hard/high-stearic fats (64% of my total oil amount) will be mixed in a pot with the KOH, and Part 2) all my liquid oils (36% of my total oil amount) will be simultaneously mixed in a separate pot with the NaOH. When both are cooked to zaplessness, they'll then be combined together into one pot while they're still hot and fluid-y, mixed well, and then poured/glopped out into small bowls. 

I got the idea for the above as I was reading through some older shaving threads on another soaping forum this weekend. On one of the threads a soaper wrote about how they had formulated a great shaving soap following the method used by the old time shaving soap makers back in the early part of the 20th century. The soaper said that the old method they were following consisted of mixing the stearic and other less soluble fats in one's formula with KOH (to make them more soluble in the finished soap), and then mixing the more soluble oils in the formula with NaOH (to make them harder), and then combining the 2 parts together at the end. Anyway, the soaper said the method really helped to make some great, long-lasting shaving lather, as did a few other soapers on the forum who had tried out the method themselves. 

So, that's what I'm hopefully going to try to do this week, possibly tomorrow. It'll just be a small tester batch. I'll let y'all know how it goes.


IrishLass


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 16, 2014)

Wouldn't the correct way to calculate the lye be to run both halves of the soap through the lye calc independently?

Ie, run the hard oils through a KOH calc, and run the liquid oils through an NAOH calc.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 16, 2014)

WSP (Can I call you Wetty?  No? Okay..........WSP it is) makes a good point - the KOH might not be the right amount for the hard oils, depending on their SAP values.  Working out the KOH needed for the hards and then the NaOH for the soft seems better when thinking about it.


----------



## Lindy (Jul 16, 2014)

Since the you combine the 2 parts you need them to each cover the whole amount I would think because you are adding them together before saponification is complete...  Unless I misunderstood the technique.  Which sounds fascinating by the way.  Mindy ou mine goes liquid once everything is melted.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 16, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Since the you combine the 2 parts you need them to each cover the whole amount I would think because you are adding them together before saponification is complete...  Unless I misunderstood the technique.  Which sounds fascinating by the way.  Mindy ou mine goes liquid once everything is melted.



She's planning on cooking both "halves" of her soap, and then combining them together after saponification.


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 17, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Working out the KOH needed for the hards and then the NaOH for the soft seems better when thinking about it.




Yes- that's exactly what I'm doing with my current experimental batch, but the previous batch that needed to be re-batched was done differently.

 With that particular batch (which was a 90% NaOH/10% KOH batch), all my oils/fats were melted together in one pot, and both my lyes were mixed together in one solution. Then I added the lye(s) solution to the melted oils/fats and CP'd away.

 The procedure actually worked out quite smoothly, but it turns out it was 2 oz short of oils/fats because of a bizarre, sudden attack of acute, but temporary cranial gas, i.e. brain fart,  brought on by an excess of mathematical stress which overloaded the circuits of my brain to the point it could no longer reason properly. Well, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!  lol

 Anyway, by the time I figured out my mistake (which came about as I was writing the 'minutes' of my soaping session down in my soaping notebook,) it was too late to do anything except to add the missing oils back in via rebatching. 

 I have my next experimental batch all weighed out and ready to be soaped. I'm just going to wait for everyone to go to bed first. I don't want any distractions that might bring on another acute attack of cranial gas. lol

 IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 17, 2014)

Yippie! I got 'er done, and my first ever croap is now in the molds!  Well, I wouldn't really call them molds as such. They're actually small microwaveable and dishwasher-safe plastic bowls that I saved from take-out at KFC for just such a possible occasion. I made enough HP croap to fill 3 of them with just a little bit of headspace at the top that I hope will be enough for lathering up in the bowls. 


I did a 64% KOH/36% NaOH batch. All my hard/solid fats were mixed with the KOH, and all my liquid oils plus glycerin were mixed with my NaOH (all using the oven method of HP).

I first brought both to trace in separate stainless pots outside of the oven, then placed both pots in the oven (covered) when trace was reached. My oven was set to 180F/82C.

The KOH portion reached full gel first, and when it did so I dumped my NaOH portion into it even though the NaOH portion wasn't quite in full gel yet (I'm glad it went that way, and not the other way around). 

Then I gave things a good stir with my whisk, covered, and continued to cook until all zap was gone and I was able to work up some lather from a little dollop of the batter, which didn't take long at all- about 20 minutes or so. All told, my total oven time from absolute beginning to end came to 1 hour and 50 minutes.

Now I hunker down and wait for cure. I might not wait as long as 4 weeks to test the lather with hubby's shaving brush, though, seeing as how it was HP'd to tongue-neutrality and all. Maybe I'll wait only 2 weeks instead, unless y'all think I should go for it sooner than that? 


IrishLass


----------



## Lindy (Jul 18, 2014)

Nicely done!  Looking forward to pictures of the lather.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 18, 2014)

Do you think it worked better to cook the different oils separately?


----------



## LBussy (Jul 18, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> I made enough HP croap to fill 3 of them with just a little bit of headspace at the top that I hope will be enough for lathering up in the bowls.


Mind you I have not experimented with the NaOH but with most of the croaps on the market you use the soap tub to load the brush, then move to a separate bowl to work up the lather.  Otherwise you end up using way more soap than is necessary.  Here's a very good tutorial on that:

Thread: My lathering technique with Italian soft soaps

And since you just tip-toed over there onto the shaving forum, this sticky of soap links may be interesting to you as a soaper:

Thread: "STICKY" post for soaps -Need HELP? read this!



> Now I hunker down and wait for cure. I might not wait as long as 4 weeks to test the lather with hubby's shaving brush, though, seeing as how it was HP'd to tongue-neutrality and all. Maybe I'll wait only 2 weeks instead, unless y'all think I should go for it sooner than that?


Again, I'm not a soaper, but I'm not sure if you get a full gel on HP you need to wait at all.  Maybe someone can right my wrongs but I did not wait to test at all and thoroughly enjoyed my experience.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 18, 2014)

With the croap, I am not 100% sure.  My soapy-sense is tingling and makes me think that a cure is of course needed, but as a croap is a croap, how does the whole structure-change-over-time aspect work in?  Does one cure liquid soap?  The answer to that would go some way to helping us with the croaps


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 18, 2014)

wetshavingproducts said:


> Do you think it worked better to cook the different oils separately?




Well, there was certainly more work involved compared to my usual soaping methods that's for sure, but as for the final outcome- only the end of cure will tell.

What I really need to do for a good 1 on 1 comparison is to make the same recipe using 64% KOH/36% NaOH, but instead of separating things, just add all the oils/fats together and both lyes together, then soap as normal. That will be my next experiment (hopefully in the next few days). If it turns out that I don't see any difference in the end lather, I'll be a happy camper to be able to simplify the process by cutting out the extra 'separating' steps. Not that it was hard or difficult to do, mind you, but just a little more involved than my preferred method of soaping.





LBussy said:


> Mind you I have not experimented with the NaOH but with most of the croaps on the market you use the soap tub to load the brush, then move to a separate bowl to work up the lather. Otherwise you end up using way more soap than is necessary. Here's a very good tutorial on that:
> Thread: My lathering technique with Italian soft soaps


Thank you very much! That was very helpful. I shall use that technique when I test the lather out. 



LBussy said:


> And since you just tip-toed over there onto the shaving forum, this sticky of soap links may be interesting to you as a soaper:
> Thread: "STICKY" post for soaps -Need HELP? read this!



Again, thank you! Yeah, I guess you could say that I've spent more than a few hours reading over at the B&B the past few days. lol 

This thread in particular had me positively riveted: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/198520-Home-made-shaving-soap Not to mention the couple of the links that someone in the thread had posted that led to old industrial soapmaking books from the 19th century. Oh my! Needless to say, other than making my small batch of croap yesterday, I haven't got much else done around here except for reading! Aye yi yi! Soap has a crazy way of doing that to me. lol

Although I've been making soap for awhile now, the whole idea of combining different portions of KOH and NaOH to improve on the ever elusive 'ease of lather' quotient in hubby's shave soap is a brand new concept to me and it has kindled a fire under me, because that's the only improvement that hubby and my aficionado tester told me my shave soap would benefit from. They were pretty adamant about me not changing anything else about the soap but that one thing, so if I can improve on that, I will be very happy indeed.

It's so funny, because I'll be happy not so much for hubby's sake (since he's told me he doesn't mind having to apply the extra elbow grease), but mostly for _my own_ sake- even though I don't use the soap- because it will greatly please the inner soap nerd in me. lol



LBussy said:


> Again, I'm not a soaper, but I'm not sure if you get a full gel on HP you need to wait at all. Maybe someone can right my wrongs but I did not wait to test at all and thoroughly enjoyed my experience.



Temptor!  Well, even though I'm a big stickler for cure in my NaOH soaps, whether with HP or CP (experience with both methods has shown me the wonderful benefits and marked improvements that always come from waiting longer), you've talked me into an early lather test with my hybrid. lol Besides, it'll give me something with which to compare my post-cure test. I will try the lathering method you posted in the link above and report back later today, hopefully with some pics included. 




			
				The Efficacious Gentleman said:
			
		

> Does one cure liquid soap? The answer to that would go some way to helping us with the croaps



You know, that's a good question. I make liquid hand soap with 100% KOH via the 'glycerin method' where the KOH is dissolved in hot, boiling glycerin instead of water, and I can actually use it the same day it is made without any problem. But then again, I formulate with a +3 superfat up front and also add extra oil (meadowfoam seed oil) after the cook (when diluting) so that it has a total of 5% superfat when all is said and done. 

For what its worth, I often hear the same thing from others who make liquid soap via the glycerin method- even those that don't superfat extra like I do- i.e., that they can use it right away after making it, unlike the liquid soap they've made using the Failor method of liquid soap-making in comparison. 

The Failor method of liquid soap-making involves formulating with a fairly substantial negative superfat up front, dissolving the KOH into room temp water instead of boiling glycerin, and adding boric acid later on to lessen the pH, etc... Anyway, I've heard from some of those who have used both the Failor method and the glycerin method that their resulting soap with the Failor method benefits greatly from a cure (sequestering), while in comparison, they felt comfortable using their soap made via the glycerin method right away. 

Anyway, I really can't say that I have detected much of a difference in the feel of my liquid soap between when it's new and when it's older, like I can with my NaOH bar soaps (the changes in _those_ are obvious and amazing!). If there is any difference to be felt in my liquid soap, it's just too subtle for me to discern. I don't know if it's merely a KOH-thing or maybe a combination KOH/glycerin-thing or a KOH/glycerin/superfat-thing, but there you have it- those are my results. 

I should probably mention that I only use my liquid soap for washing my hands. I suppose if I used it for showering/bathing there might be a different story to tell (or not), but I hate using anything but bar soap in my shower. Maybe that's a test for the future.

IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Jul 18, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> Temptor!  Well, even though I'm a big stickler for cure in my NaOH soaps, whether with HP or CP (experience with both methods has shown me the wonderful benefits and marked improvements that always come from waiting longer), you've talked me into an early lather test with my hybrid. lol Besides, it'll give me something with which to compare my post-cure test. I will try the lathering method you posted in the link above and report back later today, hopefully with some pics included.


True enough, mine are KOH.

Why the desire to use any NaOH?  Do you need to be able to form a puck?


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Jul 18, 2014)

Faster loading? Try dropping the superfat and upping the water.


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 19, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Why the desire to use any NaOH? Do you need to be able to form a puck?



Yep- my formula for hubby's soap (which I've always made with 100% NaOH) produces a hard puck, which hubby likes just fine. It's what he's used most of his shaving life, and so when I embarked on designing a shave soap for him back in 2009, a hard puck is what I set out to create. 

I tested out my day-old croap's lather this evening. It's very promising!

After swirling the wet brush around on the surface of the croap for 200 swirls (as per the tute), I then spent about a minute or so vigorously building the lather up in a separate empty bowl, and this is what I ended up with: 








I then squeegeed the lather off of the brush into a small bowl (which just filled it to the rim), took note of the time, and went out to dinner. When I came back almost 2 hours later, this is the sight that awaited me:







Not bad for such a young whippersnapper of a soap! I'm going to see if I can get hubby to try it out tomorrow and see what he thinks.


IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Jul 19, 2014)

It's tough to see from the pics but you definitely had some longevity.  Has he shaved with it yet?


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 20, 2014)

LBussy said:


> It's tough to see from the pics but you definitely had some longevity. Has he shaved with it yet?


 
 Yes- he shaved with it.  I just put together a little survey questionnaire for him to rate his experience with it. When he gets done answering it, I'll post his conclusions (hopefully sometime today). And in 4-weeks time (for proper cure to take place), I'll have him rate it again to compare the 2 experiences. 


 IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 22, 2014)

Okay! As promised- I present to you my hubby's answers to my questionaire/survey that I put together for him to rate the croap I made for him a few days ago.

But first, a little background on my formula. The croap was made using my regular 100% NaOH 'hard puck' shave soap formula that I've been making for hubby for years (but with 2 modifications that I'll mention shortly). I won't give away the exact percentages of the oil/fat amounts in my formula, but for reference sake, it consists mostly of a combo of beef tallow and high-stearic butters (such as Kokum, Illipe and/or Mango), with the remaining bulk of the oil/fat amount being made up of the following (in no specific order) palm kernel oil, avocado oil, castor oil, olive oil, coconut oil, and rice bran oil. My regular additives consist of kaolin clay, coconut milk, vegetable glycerin, sodium lactate, sugar, scent, and tetrasodium EDTA. Sometimes I use a colorant and sometimes I don't. Whenever I add them (the colorants), I do so with a light hand, and they have so far never affected the soap's performance. 

The total stearic acid amount for my formula, which is derived solely from the fats and butters alone (i.e., no added stearic as a stand-alone additive), comes to 21%. And I superfat it at 8%.

As mentioned above, I made 2 modifications to my formula for my experimental croap batch:

Modification #1) Instead of using 100% NaOH via the CP method as I normally do, I used 64% KOH and 36% NaOH via the HP method (and I HP'd all my hard fats/butters with the KOH, while simultaneously HPing all my liquid oils with the NaOH, and then mixed them together and cooked until zapless).

Modification #2) I increased my added glycerin amount from my usual 10% to 15% (for no other reason than I simply just wanted to try it to see what would happen). 

Everything else in the formula was "business as usual".

Okay- now onto the questionaire. Using a scale of 1 to 10 (with 10 being excellent), I had hubby rate the croap in each of the following categories: Slickness, Cushion/Protection, Post-Shave, Closeness of Shave, Longevity of Lather, and Ease of Lather, and I also asked him to compare it to my usual 100% NaOH 'hard puck' version of the formula. 

A) Slickness, _i.e., a soap's ability to allow the blade to smoothly glide over the skin without 'catching' or 'grabbing'_. Hubby says the croap's lather is "super-slick" with beautifully smooth glide, just like the hard puck version. He gave both the croap and the hard puck version a 10 in this regard. 

B) Cushion/protection, denseness of lather, _i.e. how much of a barrier does the lather provide between skin and blade?_ Hubby gave this one a 10, too. He experienced no nicks or cuts or weepers with the croap, and said that the croap gave him the same level of great protection that he's used to with the hard puck version (which never gives him nicks, cuts or weepers).

C) Post Shave, _i.e. how does the face feel after shaving? Is it dry or tight?_ Hubby gave the croap a 10 in this category, too. He said his face felt great after shaving. No dryness or tightness, and no stinging either when he used aftershave- the same great results as he's used to with my hard puck (which he also rated with a 10) . He went on to say that the only time he's ever had a bad post-shave with my soap was last week when (as an experiment) he shaved with a botched batch of my shave soap in which I had forgotten to add the clay. He said that the clay-less puck gave him the 'crappiest' shave he's ever gotten with one of my shave soaps. He said that besides there not being any protective cushion with the clay-less puck, it also made his face feel dry/tight afterwards, and his face stung when applying aftershave.

D) Closeness of shave- Hubby thought this to be a rather silly category and didn't give me a rating on it. The reason he thought it was silly is because he's of the mind that believes anyone can get a baby-butt soft shave given enough time with the right technique, even if a soap isn't all that perfect. Anyway, he was able to get a baby-butt soft shave with the croap, and he says he's also able to achieve the same with my puck, but it all depends on how much of a rush he's in. Case in point- he shaved with the hard puck today and he had me feel his face. One side was baby-butt smooth without a hairy stubble to be felt anywhere no matter what direction I rubbed. The other side felt the same way until I rubbed cross-wise, and then I felt a little stubble. He said he was in a bit of a rush and spent about a minute's less time or so shaving on the second side as he did on the first.

E) Longevity of lather. Hubby gave this a 10. He said the lather lasts through his usual 3 passes without having to re-load (just the same as with my puck). He said on the 3rd pass, although it was getting fairly thin, there was still plenty enough glide, moisture and protection present to get him through without a re-load (same as what happens with my hard puck). Also- when I tested the longevity of the croap's lather out the other evening by placing it in a bowl and letting it sit, although it had dissipated some, half of the lather was still standing at the end of 2 hours.

E) Ease of lather. No rating with this one either, although he did say that it lathered quicker/easier than my hard puck version (Yay! Looks like my experiment worked!). The reason why he didn't give this category a rating is because 'ease of lather' is not on his list of things that he believes make for a great shave soap. He said that the only things that matter, or that count for anything with him are smooth, slick glide, good protection, and great post-shave feel. He said that if those 3 things are present and accounted for in the soap, then it doesn't matter to him how little or hard he has to work at things.

Out of curiosity, I asked him to tell me about his normal shaving routine. He said that normally (with my hard puck), he pours hot water over the puck in the mug, lets it sit (along the brush) to soak 10 minutes while he showers. Then he dumps the water out, shakes the brush out about 3 times and swirls it around on the soap for about 50 - 60 revolutions. Then he face-lathers with the brush for 30 seconds, squeezes the excess lather out of the brush and slathers it on his face with his hands, and then shaves. He makes 3 passes and does not have to re-load.

He said that with the croap, it took less than 50 revolutions of swirling on the soap to get a good enough load for 3 passes. He then told me that if the croap is this good now, he is very curious to see how everything fares after cure.

To summerize, he says that the croap is every bit as good as my puck (which he already thinks is the bee's knees), but with the added improvement that it lathers easier/quicker. 

This has been a wonderfully positive experiment for me, and I can hardly wait for him to try out the croap after cure! 


IrishLass


----------



## Nikkor (Jul 22, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> He went on to say that the only time he's ever had a bad post-shave with my soap was last week when (as an experiment) he shaved with a botched batch of my shave soap in which I had forgotten to add the clay. He said that the clay-less puck gave him the 'crappiest' shave he's ever gotten with one of my shave soaps. He said that besides there not being any protective cushion with the clay-less puck, it also made his face feel dry/tight afterwards, and his face stung when applying aftershave.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



It sounds like you have a big fan! It's been great fun following along with you on your experiments. 

My curiosity is in the above quoted post. It's hard to believe that not having clay in the soap would make such a drastic difference. There are so many great performing soaps out there that don't include clay as you know and many that do. It's merits have been debated here and elsewhere for a good while. I'm thinking your recipe could be improved upon if the absence of clay makes such a huge difference.

Don't take what I said the wrong way, it's not meant in any way to slight you or your recipe. It's just that the addition of clay is supposed to give a "little" improvement in the "glide" and small gains in conditioning. So that's why I made my suggestion to improve in those areas by a reformulation of your recipe. If you made improvements in those areas BEFORE you add clay, think how wonderful it will be when you add the clay!

:smile:


----------



## LBussy (Jul 22, 2014)




----------



## Lindy (Jul 24, 2014)

Thank you for sharing on your experiment.  Make sure you let us know how he likes the cured soap and if there is any difference.


----------



## LBussy (Jul 24, 2014)

Is it always the case that NaOH needs to cure?  Because I thought it w a matter of reaction time which HP sort of takes the fast lane around.

If you make CP KOH does it need to cure?


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 24, 2014)

Any soap needs to cure ... HP, CP, NaOH, KOH ... it makes no difference. There is no "fast lane" work-around, regardless of what people think.

Cure reduces water content, improves the quality of the lather, increases longevity, and increases mildness. I see this in my regular bath soap as well as in my shave soap. 

The difference is comparable to drinking a young wine vs. drinking a wine that has been aged properly for its type. The young wine is certainly drinkable and many people will drink it without complaint, but the aged wine is definitely better.


----------



## LBussy (Jul 24, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> Any soap needs to cure ... HP, CP, NaOH, KOH ... it makes no difference. There is no "fast lane" work-around, regardless of what people think.
> 
> Cure reduces water content, improves the quality of the lather, increases longevity, and increases mildness. I see this in my regular bath soap as well as in my shave soap.
> 
> The difference is comparable to drinking a young wine vs. drinking a wine that has been aged properly for its type. The young wine is certainly drinkable and many people will drink it without complaint, but the aged wine is definitely better.


Well see I did side by side with two of my batches yesterday - one a few weeks old and one that was a day old.  I don't care to lose water content in a shaving croap, lather quality was a wash (sorry, could not resist), longevity is likewise not an issue (and actually it's better if the soap loads more easily), and there was no difference in the experience on my skin.  I'm new at making soap but absolutely not new using shaving soap.  I also have a very sensitive lab-grade electronic pH meter and there was no appreciable difference in pH.

So, you can see why I ask the question.  Empirical testing (well, face feel is subjective but I shave with a straight so flaws are emphasized) tells me KOH and HP does not need to cure, or at most needs a day to stabilize.  Maybe I'll try the same tests out of the pot.


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 24, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Well see I did side by side with two of my batches yesterday - one a few weeks old and one that was a day old.




If your fresh soap is working great for you and it's not lye-heavy, there's no reason why you can't use it right away, but be prepared for it to get even better down the road. 

In my experience with my own formulas, the improvements in 'feel' and performance between fresh HP and cured HP is usually not terribly discernible/distinguishable until at least a month or two have passed. The closer to 2 months, the wider in gap the differences. Of course, YMMV as to how great a difference you'll notice depending on one's formula and/or other variables, but as many long term soap-makers can attest, things _do_ have a way of improving themselves over the weeks of cure. 

If I were you, I would wait a few more weeks and test again, and then test again a few weeks more beyond that (remember to take notes!). And if you are able, even set aside a portion from the same batch and forget about it for about 6 months to a whole year (or even longer) before testing it. If you are like me and many other soap-makers who have stumbled upon an old, forgotten soap tucked away in some drawer or corner, you may be in for a pleasant surprise when you go to use it.


IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 24, 2014)

Nikkor said:


> It sounds like you have a big fan! It's been great fun following along with you on your experiments.
> 
> My curiosity is in the above quoted post. It's hard to believe that not having clay in the soap would make such a drastic difference. There are so many great performing soaps out there that don't include clay as you know and many that do. It's merits have been debated here and elsewhere for a good while. I'm thinking your recipe could be improved upon if the absence of clay makes such a huge difference.
> 
> ...



No offense taken.  Actually what you said got my wheels spinning about the differing ingredients that apply to 'slip' and 'glide' in a shave soap, and I've been looking online at a lot of ingredient labels of different shave soaps the past few days, as well as user reviews of those same soaps.

Of course, user reviews were all over the map due to the fact that people have different skin-types, live in different climates, and have access to a different water supply, etc.., etc.. but nevertheless, it has spurred me on to test out a hunch that is budding in my mind that besides personal preference and other variables, maybe the clay vs. no clay debate might also have something to do with how high or low the stearic acid % is in the soap.....? I don't really know, I'm just thinking out loud..... 

In my particular formula, which only contains 21% total stearic, hubby has made it clear that the addition of clay vs no clay results in the difference between a wonderful, slickery, protective, non-drying shave, and a 'crappy', less-protective, less-slicker, drying shave (even though the lather whipped up beautifully in the clay-less soap). 

I'm wondering what would happen if I vastly pumped up the stearic acid % to something closer to 50% and omitted the clay? That will be my next experiment. I'll do this one via HP and 66% KOH /36% NaOH, too.




			
				Lindy said:
			
		

> Thank you for sharing on your experiment. Make sure you let us know how he likes the cured soap and if there is any difference.



I will! 


IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Jul 24, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> In my experience with my own formulas, the improvements in 'feel' and performance between fresh HP and cured HP is usually not terribly discernible/distinguishable until at least a month or two have passed.


Has this been your experience with KOH only soaps?  Because I've not seen anyone on here except for us troublemaker shavers-dudes using 100% KOH.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 24, 2014)

* If your fresh soap is working great for you and it's not lye-heavy, there's no reason why you can't use it right away, but be prepared for it to get even better down the road....

Yep, what Irish Lass said. No problem there. If you wanna use it, use it. I do all the time.

* In my experience with my own formulas, the improvements in 'feel' and performance between fresh HP and cured HP is usually not terribly discernible/distinguishable until at least a month or two have passed....

And yet again I agree. The soaps I use when young are decidedly different when I try them again after several months to a year. This isn't a bunch of bull ... they really, honestly are different.

* Has this been your experience with KOH only soaps? Because I've not seen anyone on here except for us troublemaker shavers-dudes using 100% KOH....

So you haven't looked at liquid or cream soaps yet?


----------



## LBussy (Jul 24, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> So you haven't looked at liquid or cream soaps yet?


No ma'am.  I'm just causing trouble in here for now.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 24, 2014)

Lived in KC for 12 years ... lotsa troublemakers down there. 8)


----------



## LBussy (Jul 24, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> Lived in KC for 12 years ... lotsa troublemakers down there. 8)


I guarantee it!  We actually get up to Iowa on occasion.  I do Pyro and believe it or not he professional pyro laws up there are the easiest in the area.  You'd never know it from the way they treat consumer fireworks.


----------



## Nikkor (Jul 24, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> I'm wondering what would happen if I vastly pumped up the stearic acid % to something closer to 50% and omitted the clay? That will be my next experiment. I'll do this one via HP and 66% KOH /36% NaOH, too.
> 
> IrishLass



I'm no expert in shaving soap or any soap for that matter but from reading I think getting your stearic up to 50% is going to be very beneficial and a noticeable improvement. That alone would make a big difference but in conjunction with your 66% KOH and 36% NaOH plan will take it to the "next level"!

Let us know how you make out.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 24, 2014)

A local acquaintance with the last name of Sherman is a crazy pyro. Lives about 10 miles away. I've been to some of his displays. Did I say he was crazy? Add a bunch of his pyro friends, fire eaters and jugglers, and other assorted oddballs ... and it gets even crazier. :twisted:


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 24, 2014)

Nikkor said:


> I'm no expert in shaving soap or any soap for that matter but from reading I think getting your stearic up to 50% is going to be very beneficial and a noticeable improvement. That alone would make a big difference but in conjunction with your 66% KOH and 36% NaOH plan will take it to the "next level"!
> 
> Let us know how you make out.



Actually, I'm either going to do 70% KOH and 30% NaOH (since after reformulating I now have 70% hard fats and 30% soft oils and I'll be doing the "separate saponification" thing again), or maybe I'll do 100% KOH instead. I haven't quite decided yet. I'll have to do some more reading first and then get a good night's sleep on it before I definitively decide.

I don't know if this will take it to the 'next level' or not, but it'll arrive somewhere, that's for sure! lol I can only hope it will be a level up instead of a level down. But if all else fails, I'll just add clay to it! Muahahaha   

If anything, this will at least be an interesting experiment for me to see if the higher stearic will give my formula the same kind of glide and protection that my clay so obviously affords in my formula at the lower stearic level. 

I'll let you know how it goes!


IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 24, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Has this been your experience with KOH only soaps? Because I've not seen anyone on here except for us troublemaker shavers-dudes using 100% KOH.



LOL (trouble-maker shaver dudes) 

Well, methinks the trouble-maker shaver dude brings up a good point. lol The only 100% KOH soaps I ever make are liquid soaps via the glycerin method, which uses a totally different process than what I'm using with my shave soap (or any other soap for that matter). Basically, I boil KOH and glycerin together until the KOH is dissolved, and then I pour it into my melted oils/fats and whisk (off the heat) until the flying bubble stage (takes about 10 minutes). Then I leave it alone for 1 to 6 hours (still off the heat) until it saponifies itself into a thick, sticky, taffy-like paste, which then gets diluted with water and other goodies to form a liquid soap that gets packaged in a pump bottle. If you want the longer version, you can read all about it here in this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114 

Anyway, after all is said and done and the liquid soap is packaged (all of which can take as little as 1 to 3 days from start to finish), I am able to wash with it right away just fine. For whatever reason, I don't seem to be able to detect any of the 'leaps and bounds" type of improvements that are so obvious in my CP or HP soaps made with NaOH. If there _are_ any improvements to be had, they sure are subtle about revealing themselves to me. lol Having said that, though, I've heard from others that the Failor method of liquid soapmaking (which also uses 100% KOH, but via a different procedure than the glycerin method) seems to benefit from a cure. I've never used the Failor method to be able to verify that for myself, though. 

IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Jul 25, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> Well, methinks the trouble-maker shaver dude brings up a good point.


Try it ... you know you want to ... you hear the little voice whispering ... 

I think once of the greatest things about this, let's call it the "troublemaker shaver-dude" method, is that you can whip up a 100g batch in no time and with very little materials invested.  Do the Bain Marie method in the small tupperware-ish container and it's just too easy not to try.  I really would love to hear someone who is more experienced with soaping to try exactly what we're doing and let us know what they think.

Had a great shave with my soap this morning.  This was the 5% menthol one,   it figures out to 54% stearic on the calculator.  I need to move on to EO next I think just to finish things up.  The only reason I reach for some of my artisan soaps now is because of how they smell.


----------



## IrishLass (Jul 31, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Try it ... you know you want to ... you hear the little voice whispering ...




Hubby tried my 60/40 croap experiment again earlier in the week, and he loved it so much so that he's been shaving with it just about every day since. lol Today is only its 2-week birthday, too. He reports that it performs every bit as wonderfully as the 100% NaOH version, but that he likes this 60/40 version better because it's easier to lather. 

I did a lather test on it this afternoon using this method: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/21136-How-to-make-great-lather-from-a-soap-Tutorial and all I can say is wow! I was able to whip up a thick/dense/rich, merengue-like lather in just under 3 minutes from loading-time to finish, and believe it or not, the lather is still holding its own without dissipating after 3 1/2 hours now.

Out of curiosity, I just pinched the lather to test the texture and found that the outer 1/16th inch of the lather had dried into a semi-firm soapy shell, which when rubbed between my fingers feels very creamy and lotion-like, while the inside is still moist and foamy (and also lotion-like in feel). 

I'm almost ready to conduct my next experiment, which is to greatly increase the stearic content of my formula by subbing in 28% stearic acid for some (but not all) of my tallow, and omitting the clay. If I can just keep myself from tweaking it on SoapCalc one more time, I'll be making it tomorrow. 

Next, after that, I want to try an even higher stearic version of my formula, but without any bubbly oils or castor oil or clay. And I want to make it using 100% KOH.

I'll let you know how it goes!

IrishLass


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 1, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> Hubby tried my 60/40 croap experiment again earlier in the week, and he loved it so much so that he's been shaving with it just about every day since. lol Today is only its 2-week birthday, too. He reports that it performs every bit as wonderfully as the 100% NaOH version, but that he likes this 60/40 version better because it's easier to lather.
> 
> I did a lather test on it this afternoon using this method: http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/21136-How-to-make-great-lather-from-a-soap-Tutorial and all I can say is wow! I was able to whip up a thick/dense/rich, merengue-like lather in just under 3 minutes from loading-time to finish, and believe it or not, the lather is still holding its own without dissipating after 3 1/2 hours now.
> 
> ...


 
Loving these updates.

Looking at the other high Stearic-no Clay recipes doing the rounds, I think that you will need to increase the glycerine a bit, too.


----------



## LBussy (Aug 1, 2014)

My glycerin has been about 12% additional (12g to 100g of oil) and I like where that is for now.


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 1, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Loving these updates.
> 
> Looking at the other high Stearic-no Clay recipes doing the rounds, I think that you will need to increase the glycerine a bit, too.


 
 That's what I was thinking, too. Normally, I add 10% glycerin, although in the croap I made 2 weeks ago I added 15% just for experiment's sake, which I'm happy to report didn't cause any harm to the  positive attributes that my formula normally exhibits. But since this experiment will be including 28% pure stearic acid, which doesn't produce any glycerin at all during saponification, I'm going to need bump it up. That's one of the biggest reasons why it has been taking me so long to get on with this experimental batch. I keep second-guessing myself as to how much glycerin to add. 

 The other reason is that I keep second-guessing myself over how much to increase the superfat level, because subbing in the 28% stearic for most of my tallow has knocked down the conditioning numbers of my formula from 50 to 40 on SoapCalc. I normally superfat it at 8%, but if any of my past soap experiments using SoapCalc's numbers as a plumb line are anything to go by, moving from 50 to 40 in the conditioning department is a huge step in the wrong direction that usually leads to an unpleasantly dry/tight 'after-feel', so I need to take that into consideration, too.

 I'm telling ya- all these variables have been driving me batty with indecision, but I've decided to just go for it with this game plan: I'm going to add 20% glycerin, and I'm going to increase my overall superfat to 15%. I'll only be making a 227g batch, so if it doesn't turn out the way I hope, I'll just scrap it up and rebatch it into a different batch of something later on.

 I'll let you know how it goes!

 By the way- I really like the putty/clay-like texture of the 60/40 croap and how it gives me the ability to fill out his mug completely to the outer dimensions for a perfectly snug fit. 

 IrishLass


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 1, 2014)

Don't forget that the added gly will help with the skin but the numbers won't be showing in the calc


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 2, 2014)

Well, it's finally made and poured/glopped! I will test out the lather tomorrow. I can hardly wait!

 I can't get over how shiny the soap looks. I'm supposing it must be from the added stearic acid.

 I scented it with Ahoy Matey from Daystar. The croap I made 2 weeks ago was scented with Salty Sailor from Daystar. Those are two of hubby's favorite scents. I think I'll scent my next shave soap/croap experiment with Santa's Pipe from SweetCakes. It's a wonderful cherry tobacco scent.

 I'll let you know how the lather test goes!


 IrishLass


----------



## Lindy (Aug 2, 2014)

I'm going to have to try the 60:40 NaOH : KOH.  Is this hard enough as a puck to be able to be packaged by itself or does it need to be in a container of some sort?


----------



## reinbeau (Aug 2, 2014)

I made it in a Pringles can and cut it into pucks,  it works fine that way,  packaged alone.


----------



## LBussy (Aug 2, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> I can't get over how shiny the soap looks. I'm supposing it must be from the added stearic acid.


IL, my soap is sort of translucent and shiny.  It bears a closer resemblance to Vaseline than Ivory.  It is 100% KOH though and pretty clay-like in consistency but that shininess is something I definitely get.



> I scented it with Ahoy Matey from Daystar. The croap I made 2 weeks ago was scented with Salty Sailor from Daystar. Those are two of hubby's favorite scents. I think I'll scent my next shave soap/croap experiment with Santa's Pipe from SweetCakes. It's a wonderful cherry tobacco scent.


Those references cost me an hour of window shopping.


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 2, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I'm going to have to try the 60:40 NaOH : KOH. Is this hard enough as a puck to be able to be packaged by itself or does it need to be in a container of some sort?



Lindy- the 60% KOH /40%NaOH croap I made 2 weeks ago is quite clay/putty-like. It's firm enough to cut, yet soft enough to form into different shapes with your hands without it losing its end-shape (unless you squish it up again to form a different shape, that is, lol). I must confess that I rather like the consistency a lot!

Following is a pic of one of the pucks I formed out the above-mentioned croap putty. I formed it by lining a 1/2-cup sized dry-measuring cup with an oversized piece of plastic wrap, then I squished and pressed the croap putty down into the lined cup until I judged there were no air bubbles left. When done, I pulled up on the plastic wrap to remove the croap and finished things off by pressing a rubber stamp on top just for fun.

Anyway, I can hold the puck in the palm of my hand and give it a slight squeeze without doing any damage to it, but if I squeeze a little harder, it starts to give in.







I don't know how firmer it will get in the weeks to come, but if I were to package my 2-week old croap right now, it would hold up to being wrapped just fine. But if I were to mail it to someone, I think I would want to surround it with a little bit of bubble-wrap or something just in case it gets banged around too much en route.

IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 2, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Those references cost me an hour of window shopping.



LOL. All 3 are really great scents, but I must say my favorite of the 3 is Salty Sailor (hubby's too). It's very unique. It smells just like a fresh, salty, sea breeze to me. I don't know how they pull it off, but one can really smell the salt in it. I've affectionately nicknamed it 'Cape Cod in a Bottle' because the smell of it reminds me of the beaches of Cape Cod that I used to visit when I lived in MA. Everyone that I gift my soaps to without any exception (of both men and women) loves this scent. I love it so much that I think if it ever came down to the point that I were forced to choose only one scent with which to soap for the rest of my life, it would be Salty Sailor. lol

IrishLass


----------



## Lindy (Aug 2, 2014)

Irish Lass thank you, something to think about


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 3, 2014)

You're welcome, Lindy. 


Well, the preliminary results from my latest experiment are in and they are very encouraging!

To recap- this experiment was conducted to see whether or not increasing the overall stearic amount in my formula would provide enough protection and glide in my soap to allow me to be able to completely eliminate my clay amount. I used my normal shaving formula that I've been making since 2008 that my hubby thinks is awesome, but I tweaked it like so:

-I subbed in 28% pure stearic acid for most (but not all) of my tallow amount to greatly boost my overall stearic %.
-I completely omitted the kaolin clay (I normally use 2 teaspoons ppo).
-I used 60% KOH/40% NaOH instead of 100% NaOH.
-I increased my superfat level as well as my added glycerin amount to compensate for the lower conditioning number and lower glycerin content due to subbing stearic acid for most of my tallow.
-I used the HP method instead of my usual CP method
-I saponified the stearic and hard fats with the KOH, and saponified the soft oils with the NaOH, and then I combined them both together while still molten. 

All of my other ingredients remained the same as always.

......End of re-cap.........

Okay! First, I conducted a simple lather test on my day-old croap this afternoon by whipping up a beautifully creamy/dense merengue-like lather (took about 3 minutes from start to finish), and then hubby and I each tested it out by rubbing small dollops of it between our fingers. It felt wonderfully cushiony and slick to us both.

I then let the rest of the whipped-up lather sit undisturbed in a pillowy clump to see how it would hold up over time, and I'm happy to report that it did very well indeed! It held both it's shape _and_ moist consistency well past the required 10-20 minutes. I tested out the pillowy clump again at the 1-hour mark and was surprised to find that it still felt like new. 

Then I left it alone and forgot about it for the next 4 and a half hours as I busied myself with housework. When I checked on it again at what turned out to be the 5-hour mark, it had not lost it's shape, but the outer skin was now firm and a bit gummy to the touch. The inside was still moist and foamy, but the foam had grown airier and it readily collapsed when I touched it, much like the way cotton candy reacts when touched.

Next, I asked hubby if he wouldn't mind shaving with it, and he good-naturedly obliged. 

Results? He loved it! Unlike my previous clay-less batch that was made using my original, 100% NaOH normal-in-every-other-way-except-for-the-omission-of-clay-formula, hubby said that this batch had lots of cushion/protection and glide, and his skin felt great and wonderfully hydrated afterwards- absolutely no dryness or tightness or uncomfortableness of any sort. And he was also able to get a close BBS shave without any nicks or cuts in spite of the croap being only a day old. 

I then asked him to rate it against my original 100% NaOH _with_-clay version of the formula and also the 60 KOH/40 NaOH version of the original (also with clay) that I made 2 weeks ago, and he said it rated on the same par with them in terms of cushion/protection, glide, and the wonderful after-feel, but that he really likes 60% KOH/40% NaOH versions over the 100% NaOH version because of the increased ease of lather factor.

Well, what this seems to be telling me is that a higher stearic amount can indeed completely replace the clay amount in my formula without harming any of the positive qualities that my hubby loves about my formula. So....it looks like the trouble-making wet-shaver dudes were right.....at least as far as my formula is concerned at any rate. Thank you trouble-making wet-shaver dudes! 

My next experiment (after the 100% KOH experiment that I'm going to make next week without any castor, clay or bubbly oils), will consist of making the same exact tweak of my formula as I made yesterday, but _with_ the addition of clay this time. I want to see if it makes it even better (or not).


IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Aug 3, 2014)

... brings a tear to my eyes.


----------



## DeeAnna (Aug 3, 2014)

"...that I were forced to choose only one scent with which to soap for the rest of my life, it would be Salty Sailor...."

And, of course, Daystar is out of stock on that one. And the other two that I thought I might like. 

Following this thread with pleasure.....


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Aug 3, 2014)

I'm looking at shaving soap from a different perspective. I'm viewing shaving soap as using 100% KOH and the NAOH is an added ingredient, not the other way around.

So, from that perspective, other than making a cream soap or a croap (halfway between cream & hard soap puck), what's the benefit of using any NAOH at all?


----------



## LBussy (Aug 3, 2014)

wetshavingproducts said:


> what's the benefit of using any NAOH at all?


You took the words right outta my mouth.  I think there's a perception that shaving soap has to be a puck.  None of mine (since learning about good soap) are.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Aug 3, 2014)

I guess it adds hardness and form to the puck, now that I think about it. Your comment jogged my thinking.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 4, 2014)

LBussy said:


> You took the words right outta my mouth. I think there's a perception that shaving soap has to be a puck. None of mine (since learning about good soap) are.


 
I think some people _like_ a puck.  It's not about it having to be a puck, but I know for a fact that you well know that when it comes to shaving there is so much "YMMV" that what is golden for one person will leave the next man bloodier than butcher.

A lot of soaps that are considered classics use a mix of Potassium and Sodium (the vintage Old Spice pucks in the mugs, for example).

As I said, I will be making both (the only difference in my recipe) and see which one works best for me.  When it comes to selling I'll most likely make both just because some people want a puck.


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 4, 2014)

For several years up until this summer when I started reading these here shaving threads, I was all about the hard puck. But that's mainly because I've been living under a rock and didn't know there was anything else other than a hard puck that a man would use as a shaving medium..... well, except for cans of shaving cream or shaving gel, that is- but those don't count (at least to Hubby they don't anyway).

But now that I've found out what croaps are and have made a few batches of them..... well, I guess you could say that I'm not so strongly tethered to the concept of a hard puck anymore.... lol

Don't get me wrong, though- I still love my hard puck formula and am glad to have it in my soaping arsenal since it's easily CP'd and it gives hubby a great shave, but it's pretty cool knowing I'm no longer solely limited to a hard puck as the 'be-all/end-all'. It's like a whole new lathery world has opened up to me, and I'm excited about it! (I'm such a soap nerd! )

After the last few comments in regards to using KOH-only, I think I'm going to need to add yet another experiment to my list to try making- namely a KOH-only version of the higher stearic version of my formula that I just made. Goodness! My list just keeps growing longer! I need to start writing these things down before I lose track of them or forget the reason why I'm conducting whatever experiment. :crazy: lol You guys are such enablers! 


IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Aug 4, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> You guys are such enablers!


Takes one to know one!


----------



## Nikkor (Aug 5, 2014)

Irish Lass, happy to hear that your last experiment was a success! I find this all very fascinating.

I made my own shave soap using the recipe in Songwinds epic thread but found it a little drying. I tried another using tallow, stearic, coconut and shea with a 60/40 KOH-NaOH split and liked this one much better. It's a total YMMV type of thing though.

I lurk on the big shaving forums, mostly to look for good deals on the buy and sell threads. I'm looking for a higher end badger brush. I only have a lowly Omega boar but it does just fine. I just want to see what all the fuss about premium badger is all about. The one thing that struck me from being on the shave forums is how competitive the shaving soap market is. There are so many to choose from. You have the bigger players like Stirling, Mikes, HTGAM, Tiki, Mystic Waters, Cold River Soap Works, Barrister and Mann. Then there are a bunch of smaller guys/gals to numerous to list. I wonder how they all manage to make a sizable piece of the market? I'm not looking to get into the business, I have a good job, just curious.

I only say that since I see how popular the shaving soap threads are here and see so many people making it on this forum. I wonder if some of you are thinking of jumping into the action? It seems to me that a good marketing campaign and some kind of inroad into the shaving world is needed. I may be wrong but it is part of what I do for my profession and so I find the whole thing very interesting.

Sorry to go so off track. Back on topic, good for you Irish Lass! I'm watching for your next experiment to see how it works out. I've got enough of my homemade shave soap to last me another couple of months at least but am ready to try something new.  
:-D


----------



## LBussy (Aug 5, 2014)

Nikkor I have a rather high-end Silvertip and when it all comes down to it, I don't get a better than I did from my horsehair.  It's prettier for sure.   

Have you tried one of the Vie-Long?  If not, I recommend it.


----------



## Seawolfe (Aug 5, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> "...that I were forced to choose only one scent with which to soap for the rest of my life, it would be Salty Sailor...."
> 
> And, of course, Daystar is out of stock on that one. And the other two that I thought I might like.


I just ordered some from the Daystar site, so try again? I also ordered an interesting looking sandalwood/sage. 

Thanks IrishLass! I've been looking for a "sea scent" and I had an FO called "kelp" that sounded promising, but smells like a grandmothers boudoir....:roll:


----------



## Nikkor (Aug 6, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Nikkor I have a rather high-end Silvertip and when it all comes down to it, I don't get a better than I did from my horsehair.  It's prettier for sure.
> 
> Have you tried one of the Vie-Long?  If not, I recommend it.



I have looked at those horsehairs. They look interesting for sure.

I'm thinking of just biting the bullet and getting a silvertip badger from one of the guys (WD) that makes brushes. He has great prices and excellent reviews. The thought of a used brush for some may be fine and I'm sure it is but when it's something I use to ""scrub" on my face I think I want a brand new one.

A Vie-Long horsehair may be in my future, I don't know. Just looking for that "pillowy softness" I keep hearing about in the premium badger.


----------



## LBussy (Aug 6, 2014)

The horsehair is a very nice experience and you can always BST it if you don;t like it.  I had my silvertip made by Rudy Very and it's an excellent brush - I would recommend him as well but Larry's followers seem to give him good marks as well.


----------



## reinbeau (Aug 6, 2014)

Wow, there are shaving brush groupies too - shaving soap and the associated tools are fascinating, I never knew there was such a cult around it all and I don't mean that in a bad way.  Interesting.


----------



## cpacamper (Aug 6, 2014)

Nikkor said:


> Irish Lass, happy to hear that your last experiment was a success! I find this all very fascinating.
> 
> I made my own shave soap using the recipe in Songwinds epic thread but found it a little drying. I tried another using tallow, stearic, coconut and shea with a 60/40 KOH-NaOH split and liked this one much better. It's a total YMMV type of thing though.
> 
> ...


Nikkor, Omega boars are quite good brushes, and cannot be beat for value. I used a model 10066 for the better part of a year and was very happy. 

I recently got a Shavemac D01 2 band silvertip badger knot in a Rudy Vey handle (the limited edition brush over at B and B) and I love it. Does it improve lather quality over an Omega? No, but it holds more soap and produce smore lather per load than the Omega due to its very dense knot. Is it luxurious, soft, and wonderful? Absolutely! Is it worth the extra cost? It is an extremely fine brush of top quality. For me, it's a complete luxury item and not necessary but certainly very nice to use.


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 6, 2014)

Nikkor said:


> Irish Lass, happy to hear that your last experiment was a success! I find this all very fascinating.



I find it all fascinating, too! Up until recently, I didn't know that my formula could be improved upon any more than it had already without somehow ruining the qualities about it that my hubby so greatly relies upon. And I also didn't know that I could get away without using clay if I just bumped up the stearic. This has been a great learning experience for me (and continues to be so).




Nikkor said:


> I made my own shave soap using the recipe in Songwinds epic thread but found it a little drying. I tried another using tallow, stearic, coconut and shea with a 60/40 KOH-NaOH split and liked this one much better. It's a total YMMV type of thing though.



That one is still on my list to try making, only I think I'm going to have to superfat it up to around 15% or so with all that coconut oil in there (saponified coconut oil is a very powerful cleanser). Thankfully, though, coconut oil is a very stable oil that can take to being excessively superfatted without the soap coming down with DOS (the dreaded orange spots). I make a bath soap with 100% coconut oil superfatted @ 20% and it holds up fine for years (and still counting), so I'm not too concerned with a DOS infection. My only concern is whether or not the higher superfat will aversely affect the shaving capabilities. We'll see! 




Nikkor said:


> The one thing that struck me from being on the shave forums is how competitive the shaving soap market is. There are so many to choose from. You have the bigger players like Stirling, Mikes, HTGAM, Tiki, Mystic Waters, Cold River Soap Works, Barrister and Mann. Then there are a bunch of smaller guys/gals to numerous to list. I wonder how they all manage to make a sizable piece of the market? I'm not looking to get into the business, I have a good job, just curious.
> 
> I only say that since I see how popular the shaving soap threads are here and see so many people making it on this forum. I wonder if some of you are thinking of jumping into the action? It seems to me that a good marketing campaign and some kind of inroad into the shaving world is needed. I may be wrong but it is part of what I do for my profession and so I find the whole thing very interesting.



Hubby and I were talking about that the other day. He thought it might be cool if the shave-soap artisans were to pool themselves together as a group under the form of some kind of entity or guild to offer their wares, but still retain their individuality as artisans ... 

I myself have no interest into jumping into the action market-wise. I'm often tempted to because friends and family are always encouraging me to go that route, but I know myself only too well, and I am no business-woman! lol Maybe someday if a miracle occurs and I'm suddenly infused with awesome business-savvy sense and super organization skills I'll think more seriously about it, but until then I'm perfectly happy making soap and other B&B things for my little pond of family and friends.


IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Aug 6, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> My only concern is whether or not the higher superfat will aversely affect the shaving capabilities. We'll see!


I can't imagine not liking a little extra slide, but my big beef is the soap scum let's say a high tallow soap leaves in the sink.  I do have very soft water and what works here though sometimes doesn't work say down in Wichita where the water is harder.



> Hubby and I were talking about that the other day. He thought it might be cool if the shave-soap artisans were to pool themselves together as a group under the form of some kind of entity or guild to offer their wares, but still retain their individuality as artisans ...


Yeah and who would organize THAT room of poo-flinging monkeys? Not I!    There are what I think is just enough dedicated shave soap artisans (as opposed to soap artisans who also make shaving soap) to keep things quite interesting I think.  A couple of them have been corresponding with me on B&B and we have been exchanging soap samples just to get feedback.  I don't think a person can or should do this to make money (at least not solely shave soap) but as a hobby it's a lot of fun and could pay for some supplies.  If someone else wants to throw their hat in the ring I'll probably buy just to try it out, but I have enough soap to last me till 3017 (a popular B&B refrain).


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 6, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Yeah and who would organize THAT room of poo-flinging monkeys? Not I!



LOL Boy, I'm sure glad I wasn't eating or drinking anything while reading the above comment.  




LBussy said:


> ... but I have enough soap to last me till 3017 (a popular B&B refrain).



My hubby's shave stash is quickly reaching that point, too, with all the experiments I've been doing lately. lol


IrishLass


----------



## reinbeau (Aug 6, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Yeah and who would organize THAT room of poo-flinging monkeys? Not I!


Oh my goodness, you won the internetz tonight with that one, I can't stop chuckling.

I would like to take my little shaving soap pucks to a few local barber shops and see if there's any interest.  Worst they can do is tell me know - unless they've got any of those monkeys hanging around..... :Kitten Love:


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Aug 6, 2014)

Nikkor said:


> The one thing that struck me from being on the shave forums is how competitive the shaving soap market is. There are so many to choose from. You have the bigger players like Stirling, Mikes, HTGAM, Tiki, Mystic Waters, Cold River Soap Works, Barrister and Mann. Then there are a bunch of smaller guys/gals to numerous to list. I wonder how they all manage to make a sizable piece of the market? I'm not looking to get into the business, I have a good job, just curious.
> 
> I only say that since I see how popular the shaving soap threads are here and see so many people making it on this forum. I wonder if some of you are thinking of jumping into the action? It seems to me that a good marketing campaign and some kind of inroad into the shaving world is needed. I may be wrong but it is part of what I do for my profession and so I find the whole thing very interesting.



The first quoted sentence sums it up. It's super competitive. You have to offer something new to grab a foothold or have an established brand. Honestly, the only reason I'm getting into the business is because it's been a part of the business plan from the beginning and for some reason, I actually like making soap. It's a new challenge for me and I like problem solving. I'll probably get bored of doing it just like I'm extremely tired of sharpening straight razors, but I gotta keep the lights on somehow.

And just throwing it out there, I have thought about it and would like to take on a partner to take over the sharpening business...... Just saying


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 7, 2014)

Another reason why I am half grateful for all of the legal work I have to do to sell soap here in the EU - it keeps the number of competitors some what lower.  It's a major PITA though.


----------



## Lindy (Aug 7, 2014)

I am on B&B (Malaspina) and have found it to be a good place to sell soap.  The thing to remember there is that they don't jump at the newest or the latest, it takes a while to get a lot of business out of them.


----------



## cpacamper (Aug 10, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> Well, there was certainly more work involved compared to my usual soaping methods that's for sure, but as for the final outcome- only the end of cure will tell.
> 
> What I really need to do for a good 1 on 1 comparison is to make the same recipe using 64% KOH/36% NaOH, but instead of separating things, just add all the oils/fats together and both lyes together, then soap as normal. That will be my next experiment (hopefully in the next few days). If it turns out that I don't see any difference in the end lather, I'll be a happy camper to be able to simplify the process by cutting out the extra 'separating' steps. Not that it was hard or difficult to do, mind you, but just a little more involved than my preferred method of soaping.
> 
> IrishLass


IrishLass, have you done this experiment yet?


----------



## Mighty Mama (Aug 11, 2014)

So it seems pure coconut oil does the trick equally as well as the blend I have going at the moment (cocoa butter, shea butter, avocado oil, coconut oil).  Seeing as all my other soaps are 100% coconut oil, its def worth a try - thanks Lbussy!


----------



## LBussy (Aug 11, 2014)

I'm just an apostle.   Glad it worked out for you.


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 12, 2014)

cpacamper said:


> IrishLass, have you done this experiment yet?


 
 Not yet. I got sidetracked with making embeds and other soaps, but I hope to do it sometime this week. 

 IrishLass


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 12, 2014)

How dare you do anything other than make shaving soaps!


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 12, 2014)

I know, I know! I'm sorry, please forgive me!  I tried so hard to resist, I really did! But those tantalizing silicone embed molds kept calling to me and tempting me, and they just wouldn't let up! I'll try harder next time, I promise! :razz:


 IrishLass


----------



## cpacamper (Aug 12, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> How dare you do anything other than make shaving soaps!


 
 Yeah, +1,000!

 Us weird shaving dudes are impatient and obsessive too :clap:


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 12, 2014)

Okay, so, it's no longer 'troublemaking wet-shaving dudes', but 'weird, impatient, obsessive, troublemaking wet-shaver dudes'. Got it. ;-) lol


 IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Aug 12, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> Okay, so, it's no longer 'troublemaking wet-shaving dudes', but 'weird, impatient, obsessive, troublemaking wet-shaver dudes'. Got it.


Yeah, these guys:


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 12, 2014)

We are a special breed, that's for sure. 

I can't seem to post pictures over this hotel connection, but I have shots from the 1.5 day old KOH & NaOH shaving soap. Not as good to lather so soon as the pure KOH, but still a jolly good shave. 

Picked up a bowl here in Georgia (the elderly lady in the little shop spoke passable German, which was rather surprising to say the least!) so I'll see how it works up my Arko and then when I get home I'll see how it works with my own soaps. Pictures soon


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 13, 2014)

Okay, David (and the rest of you weird, impatient, obsessive, troublemaking wet-shaver dudes)- I just got done cooking and pouring out the experiment you were asking about. It proceeded very well- much less hassle than doing the separating method for sure. I'll have hubby test it out on Thursday and post his findings.

 IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Aug 13, 2014)

I've never been so honored to be called names.  :razz:

Looking forward to hearing the results!


----------



## eucalypta (Aug 13, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Parfum - *Fragrance oil*or Essential Oil
> Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone *masking agent*aka 3-Methyl-4-(2,6,6-trimethyl-2-cyclohexen-1-yl)-3-buten-2-one, or cetone =  a synthetic fragrance element smelling woody, violet or floral like.
> Hexyl Cinnamal *Often used as a masking agent this is a part of Chamomile and is used in perfuming. It is a known allergen.*
> Limonene - *Again part of an essential oil, citrus, which is obtained from oranges. It is done through centrifuge or steam distillation rather than the normal method of expressed from the peels.*
> ...


_

You're partially right here.
Most of the ingredients mentioned here usually don't stand on their own. Limonene being the major exception, as it is added to a lot of cleaning products for its extreme good cleansing properties. (Hence the citrussy scent of a lot of household and industrial cleaners.)
Alfa-Isomethyl ionone is the second ingredient that may be added to a product as a separate ingredient, because it is synthetically produced.

All of the above mentioned ingredients are used for their fragrance and are known allergens.

These allergens are part of a list of 26, that - in the European Union - require labeling if the concentration of the designated ingredient exceeds 100 parts per million (ppm) for a rinse-off product and 10 ppm for a leave-on product. (safety threshold). International Nomenclature of Cosmetic Ingredients (INCI) names must be used.

Most of the forum members are not from the EU, so I can imagine that for them, reading all those ingredients on a label may be confusing.
Using a fragrance oil in the EU requires a MSDS/Technical Data Sheet which includes the amounts of all allergens in the FO  or EO. 
Then it is up to  you to calculate the actual amount per allergen of the list of 26 in your product, in order to label correctly.
You can imagine that it becomes quite a challenge if you decide to combine two or more FOs/EOs in one product. :shock:

If you're interested, here is some additional reading:
The list of 26
leaflets (easy reasing)
SCCNFP (Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety) Opinion Reports on Allergenic Substances
example MSDS see pages 2 and 3.

I know this belongs in the Fragrance oil section, but it seemed adequate to post here too.
So mod feel free to move it, if you find it interesting enough._


----------



## cpacamper (Aug 13, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> Okay, David (and the rest of you *weird, impatient, obsessive, troublemaking* wet-shaver dudes)- I just got done cooking and pouring out the experiment you were asking about. It proceeded very well- much less hassle than doing the separating method for sure. I'll have hubby test it out on Thursday and post his findings.
> 
> IrishLass


 
 Adjectives I hear quite often for some reason 

 Thanks IrishLass!


----------



## IrishLass (Aug 19, 2014)

I'm a little late in reporting back, but hubby has shaved with the 64% KOH/36% NaOH croap that I made by combining both lyes together into one solution and saponifying everything together in one pot, instead of separately saponifying the KOH with the hard fats/stearic in one pot, and saponifying the NaOH with the liquid oils in a separate pot, and then combining them together. The results? Hubby could tell no difference, so I'm going to save myself some trouble and just combine both lyes together into one solution and saponify everything together in one pot from now on. 

Also- I just wanted to add some observations that hubby made in regards to the croaps vs my normal 100% NaOH hard pucks..... He told me over the weekend that he found the croaps to be more tricky to lather in comparison to my hard puck. To explain, he said that although the croaps lather very easily in comparison to the puck, he has to be mindful to not add too much water to the croap while loading and lathering or else the cushion is reduced to nil in spite of the resulting lather being quite copious. He said that when he's mindful to not go overboard on the water that the cushion is perfect. With the hard puck, the water amount seems to be less persnickety. 

I asked him if I should go back to just making him the 100% NaOH hard puck then, and he said that although he likes both the hard puck and the croap and is quite happy to use either one, he actually prefers the croap for the ease of lather in spite of having to be extra mindful to not add too much water. 

My next experiment is to try this:

Stearic acid 40%
Tallow 40%
Mango Butter 20%
100% KOH

I am going to scent it with Barbershop 1920's from AH/RE. I just received a sample of it and hubby said the smell of it is spot-on to the childhood memories he has of waiting in the barbershop for his dad to get done with his shave and trim. I hope the scent does not morph when soaped. I'm kind of concerned about it because some (but not all) of the reviews I read said that it did tend to morph, but since I'll be HPing this batch and adding the FO after the cook, hopefully I'll have better luck. We'll see!

I scented my last croap with Santa's Pipe from SweetCakes, which is a cherry-tobacco scent. It's pretty strong. I only used .3 oz ppo in the croap and hubby said he could smell it on his hands every time he touched his face throughout the day. I asked him if I should take it a notch down to .2 oz ppo and he said no- .3 oz ppo was fine. 


IrishLass


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 19, 2014)

If I ever meet you, IrishLass, you are getting a hug and a cup of tea.

I am using my few week old 100% KOH at the moment, letting the 45-55 KOH-NaOH rest for a while.  I prefer the 100% KOH if I am honest, even though it requires a good amount of water.


----------



## LBussy (Aug 19, 2014)

I've never thought the croap was sensitive to water, but I may also just be used to it.  If it is, it may be because it's already got a pretty good water content?

You're quite a good sport IL. 

I'm going to have to get some of that Santa's Pipe.  I tried an Almond Marzipan in my last batch and it was spot on with my beloved Cella soap.


----------



## reinbeau (Aug 19, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> I am going to scent it with Barbershop 1920's from AH/RE. I just received a sample of it and hubby said the smell of it is spot-on to the childhood memories he has of waiting in the barbershop for his dad to get done with his shave and trim. I hope the scent does not morph when soaped. I'm kind of concerned about it because some (but not all) of the reviews I read said that it did tend to morph, but since I'll be HPing this batch and adding the FO after the cook, hopefully I'll have better luck. We'll see!


I'll be very interested to hear what you think of this scent after HPing it.  I read the reviews too, and would hate to buy it and use it only to have it descend into baby powder only


----------



## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

IRISHLASS thank you for sharing your experience with us...


----------



## DeeAnna (Aug 19, 2014)

Um, Lindy, do you mean Irish Lass instead of me? I have said little ... but I really think IL deserves a medal for all she's done to contribute to this thread!


----------



## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

CRAP!  Yes I meant IRISH LASS.... one of those days where the mouse fell off the wheel... :-?


----------



## cpacamper (Aug 19, 2014)

Thanks, IrishLass!

I did a similar experiment last weekend with different results. In my 67/24/9% tallow/SA/CO shave soap, Batch A was made with SA/KOH cooked separately from the other oils and NaOH, Batch B was cooked with all the lye's combined with all the oils. Batch A is slightly more conditioning and slick, and is easier to build a lather on than batch B. 

What I found interesting is that when I ran both calculations through soapcalc, Batch A required less total lye by weight than Batch B. When I investigated further, I discovered it takes less KOH to saponify pure stearic acid than it does to saponify the same amount by weight of tallow. Learn something new every day!


----------



## dosco (Oct 22, 2014)

IrishLass said:


> I am going to scent it with Barbershop 1920's from AH/RE.



AH/RE?

Could you spell that out please? I'm searching for a barbershop scent and that might be the ticket.


----------



## LBussy (Oct 22, 2014)

I think:

http://rusticescentuals.com/Barbershop-1920-s.html


----------



## DWinMadison (Oct 22, 2014)

How do you calculate or using BOTH KOH and NaOH in the same recipe?  On soapcalc, using the same oils calls for 26.6% NaOH or 33.3% KOH.  Not that common sense always works in soaping, but it would dictate one would calculate the recipe twice based on the Percentage of oils used (e.g. 40% of total oils with KOH and 60% with NaOH) then blend the two.  Does that make sense?  Is there a calculator online that allows you to combine the two in the same formula?  Am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?  Why am I asking so many questions?  Is anyone reading this?  Am I being paranoid? What was in those 'shrooms I just smoked?


----------



## dosco (Oct 22, 2014)

DWinMadison said:


> How do you calculate or using BOTH KOH and NaOH in the same recipe?  On soapcalc, using the same oils calls for 26.6% NaOH or 33.3% KOH.  Not that common sense always works in soaping, but it would dictate one would calculate the recipe twice based on the Percentage of oils used (e.g. 40% of total oils with KOH and 60% with NaOH) then blend the two.  Does that make sense?  Is there a calculator online that allows you to combine the two in the same formula?  Am I making this more complicated than it needs to be?  Why am I asking so many questions?  Is anyone reading this?  Am I being paranoid? What was in those 'shrooms I just smoked?



I don't know if there is a calculator to allow for both but the way I do it is to split the recipe. I also use HP. There are a couple of ways to split the recipe, my way is to formulate and saponify the batches separately (KOH+stearic, NaOH+lard+CO). While hot I then bring them together for the final mixing.

The reason for this is that I want my shave soap to have certain finished properties. I want the KOH to only saponify the stearic, and I want the superfat to only be coconut oil. I also want certain percentages of constituent fats/fatty acids (I currently use 50-25-25 stearic-lard-CO). So I use soapcalc to determine the KOH+stearic formulation, then I use soapcalc to determine the NaOH+lard+CO formulation ... making sure all the time to keep the mass of the fats/FAs in the proper proportions.

When I go to make the soap I start by melting the lard, then adding all of the NaOH+water. Once suitably thickened I add the CO.

In a separate pot I melt the stearic and then add KOH. This stuff reacts almost instantly and is "done" (enough for mixing) very quickly.

I've read on other threads of the same formulation method (separate recipes) but then mixing everything in 1 pot. This will work but I don't like it for 2 reasons.

1) the SF will be a mix of stearic, lard, and CO. Which may be fine (functionally it is not a problem) but I happen to like CO as *the* SF.

2) The KOH will saponify the stearic, lard, and CO. My understanding is that the "secret sauce" that makes shave soap "good" is the potassium stearate.

As they say on the shaving forums, YMMV.

-Dave


----------



## LBussy (Oct 22, 2014)

Dave the separate saponification may be a placebo effect ... maybe not, but see this thread we had a week or so ago:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49216

This calculator does mixed lyes:

http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps


----------



## DWinMadison (Oct 22, 2014)

dosco;462375

In a separate pot I melt the stearic and then add KOH. This stuff reacts almost instantly and is "done" (enough for mixing) very quickly.

-Dave[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> So, You mix the KOH directly into the stearic with not dissolving in water?  Will that work in CP?


----------



## LBussy (Oct 22, 2014)

No .. almost positive he did not mean it that way.  You have to dissolve the lye in something.


----------



## IrishLass (Oct 22, 2014)

DWinMadison said:


> So, You mix the KOH directly into the stearic with not dissolving in water? Will that work in CP?


 
 Ditto what Lee (LBussy) said^^^. 


 IrishLass


----------



## dosco (Oct 22, 2014)

DWinMadison said:


> So, You mix the KOH directly into the stearic with not dissolving in water?  Will that work in CP?



No. My apologies for my imprecise language. I meant KOH+water solution.

I suspect it is unlikely you'll get stearic to work with CP.

-Dave


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 23, 2014)

Unlikely is an understatement! 

I'm still not sold on how much a saponified soap will interact with an additional oil to be honest. Eagerly awaiting Dr Dunn's results on that. 

Dave - even if you do one pot hp you can still selectively superfat - work out a lye neutral or 1% sf recipe, cook it up and then add in co to the amount you want (50g for a 5% sf in a 1kg batch) and there you have it. 

Just for info, both this method and the method Dave usually follows have an interesting effect - While this is a superfat of 5% it is not likely to be a lye discount of 5%. When selectively superfatting, the amount of lye used is not the total required minus 5% (keeping the 5% example) because of the different SAP values.


----------



## dosco (Oct 23, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm still not sold on how much a saponified soap will interact with an additional oil to be honest. Eagerly awaiting Dr Dunn's results on that.



My thoughts on my approach is that after I've added *all* of the lye water to only 1 of the fats, by the time I add CO the lard has *mostly* saponified. I'm going to guess that *mostly* means something like 80% to 90% ... and although I'm not a chemist I do recall from my college chemistry that the rate of reaction - being an exponential function - results in a small amount of saponification over a long time. Much what I've read about here and elsewhere about "curing." So I realize that my approach probably yields a small amount of lard as SF, but I'm speculating it's on the order of less than 1% and with a 5% SF that's not much.

If the lard was fully saponified I am dubious that there would be any reactions at all with the CO. But there is no way for me to know if the lard is fully saponified due to the massive excess of lye. I'm banking on the fact that CO appears to react very slowly (based on my observations making CO-only soap) and that by the time I've added the CO to the mostly saponified lard-soap that I'm guessing that what I've said in the previous paragraph is true.



> Dave - even if you do one pot hp you can still selectively superfat - work out a lye neutral or 1% sf recipe, cook it up and then add in co to the amount you want (50g for a 5% sf in a 1kg batch) and there you have it.


If I were using 1 lye I would definitely try that. Similarly if I were using *zero* stearic I would also try that. But because shaving soap needs potassium stearate it makes sense to me to use the 2-pot approach or the 1-pot with addition of finished stearic-only soap (sort of a rebatching method).

The conversation about cations switching species is interesting. I do know a teeny bit about metallurgy (the "lamellar" comment brought back some memories from my last job) and heat treatment and it is interesting to note how one can make various metallic compounds go in and out of solution by heat treatment. Seems like a parallel here with soap.

On a similar note, do the Na and K ions switch between their respective FAs or do they switch with all FAs? In other words if I were to make a soap with KOH and NaOH would the metal ions switch only between the stearate molecules? Or do they switch between the myristate, stearate, and all other salt molecules?

And how much switching are we talking about? I would posit that it is a small amount at room temperature and there is more switching as the temperature increases.

Cool stuff.

Cheers-
Dave


----------



## LBussy (Oct 23, 2014)

dosco said:


> I suspect it is unlikely you'll get stearic to work with CP.



There is a new soaper on B&B (she's not on here) that makes a CP shaving soap with SA.  I'd guess she melts, mixes in oils and cools it to where she can work with it.  It would almost have to be "warm process" but ....



dosco said:


> My thoughts on my approach is that after I've added *all* of the lye water to only 1 of the fats, by the time I add CO the lard has *mostly* saponified.


My first HP soaps were "done" in 20 minutes by zap test.  Depending on how long you are going there I would agree.  



> So I realize that my approach probably yields a small amount of lard as SF, but I'm speculating it's on the order of less than 1% and with a 5% SF that's not much.


Since I add my SF after a 2 hour cook, I doubt very much I have any unintended fats as SF.  Still as we said in a thread on B&B - I smear more grease on my face eating BBQ than I do shaving.



> On a similar note, do the Na and K ions switch between their respective FAs or do they switch with all FAs? In other words if I were to make a soap with KOH and NaOH would the metal ions switch only between the stearate molecules? Or do they switch between the myristate, stearate, and all other salt molecules?


The way the literature I've found reads, the cations are free to switch around with any available FA.  Since only reacted FA's are available (SF would not be in solution) I take that to mean between the saponified fats.



> And how much switching are we talking about? I would posit that it is a small amount at room temperature and there is more switching as the temperature increases.


I've no reason to not believe the laws of physics would not hold here.  Still, the assumption is that it happens at the molecular rather than macro level so a couple here and there, likely not enough to change the character of a soap used within a year.  I don;t have a way to test that but it seems reasonable.  

Since I've absolutely no reason to use NaOH in my shaving soap I also don;t worry about it too much. :grin:


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 23, 2014)

It's strange - I actually get better results from my mixed lye soap than my KOH.


----------



## LBussy (Oct 23, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It's strange - I actually get better results from my mixed lye soap than my KOH.


Yes, it is strange. 

My pure KOH soap is now as hard as most mixed lye soaps (within an hour of cooking), and still loads like an Italian croap.  I could probably puck this soap, although it would need a touch of curing/drying.  I just prefer tubs and tins.

The only folks who seem to have trouble with it are those who are used to low-solubility soaps and/or don't use enough water.  Those are the same folks who have trouble with MdeC I think.

I was always "going to try this" but never got around to using both lyes.  In the spirit of us badgering Irish Lass to try a soap without dirt, I should really do this in an upcoming session.


----------



## DWinMadison (Oct 23, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It's strange - I actually get better results from my mixed lye soap than my KOH.



"Better" as in a better shave soap?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 23, 2014)

Not necessarily. But from my two soaps I get better shaves from the mixed lye one. Your mileage will vary!


----------



## IrishLass (Oct 23, 2014)

LBussy said:


> . In the spirit of us *badgering* Irish Lass to try a soap without dirt, I should really do this in an upcoming session.




Well, that gives a whole different meaning to the name 'Badger and Blade'. lol 


So far, for the most part, I've been using a 64% KOH/36% NaOH blend, but I really should try a 100% KOH batch of shaving croap.

I actually use 100% KOH quite often, but it's only for when I make liquid soap. The first stage that liquid soap goes through is the 'paste' stage, where the initial batter saponifies into a thick, hardened-but-pliable, translucent, taffy-like soap that can be squished and formed into whatever shape you desire. And it will remain in that hardened taffy/paste state until you dilute it with enough water to turn it into liquid soap. 

Lee- maybe you should try making liquid soap out of your 100% KOH shaving soap one of these days.

Oh, just wanted to mention that with the last batch of 64/36 shaving croap I made, I mixed the 2 lyes together with all my oils/fats instead of separating them to saponify with different fats, and we found no noticeable difference in the finished croap. It behaved the same as my croaps made with the 'separate saponification' method. 

I must say that I really love making these croaps. They're hard and can hold their shape, yet they are still soft enough to be squished up and pressed form-fittingly into a bowl or a cup, or whatever else you desire to package them in. 


IrishLass


----------



## LBussy (Oct 23, 2014)

Maybe someone can explain to me what benefit - real or imagined, comes from using NaOH?  NaOH is harder and KOH is more soluble so if I don;t care how hard it is and I definitely want solubility, why use any NaOH?


----------



## new12soap (Oct 23, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Maybe someone can explain to me what benefit - real or imagined, comes from using NaOH?  NaOH is harder and KOH is more soluble so if I don;t care how hard it is and I definitely want solubility, why use any NaOH?



I think it depends on your formula. If you are in fact using 50% stearic acid, or a very high percentage, you can still get a soap hard enough to hold its shape and mold into a container, something putty-like. If your formula contains far less or no added stearic, you would end up with LS paste using only KOH. The NaOH gives the soap more form.


----------



## LBussy (Oct 23, 2014)

So if a given soap is "hard enough" with KOH, why mess with two different lyes?  Is there any other benefit?


----------



## DeeAnna (Oct 23, 2014)

"...maybe you should try making liquid soap out of your 100% KOH shaving soap..."

I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever comment on this, but I realized recently that the Songwind recipe (Martin de Candre dupe) is basically a cream soap. The stearic % and added glycerin is right on the money for this type of recipe. Just add a little more water and whip it good. :twisted:

Add even more water and, yes, I agree with you, Lass, it would make an opaque liquid soap.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 24, 2014)

A wee update - used the KOH only soap with lots of water and had a top notch shave. The cat is firmly amongst the pigeons now. 

As for puck vs croap, Lee, you don't have to - as you know, some people like pucks a lot. I did a 50/50 mix and my hard puck performs really well. I will make both as some people will like a puck regardless of if the reduced amount of KOH makes it slightly less effective. Let's be honest, it still have NaOH with the right fats mix so it's not a complete ruin of a shaving soap. 

Dave, the comment from irishlass was what I was thinking of before, that the 2pot method to get only potster might well be a goose chase. Maybe also make up a small batch and see?


----------



## dosco (Oct 24, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> As for puck vs croap, Lee, you don't have to - as you know, some people like pucks a lot. I did a 50/50 mix and my hard puck performs really well. I will make both as some people will like a puck regardless of if the reduced amount of KOH makes it slightly less effective. Let's be honest, it still have NaOH with the right fats mix so it's not a complete ruin of a shaving soap.



I suspect Lee's reasoning is something like "we know that potassium salts are more water soluble than sodium salts, so shave soap should only be made from potassium hydroxide." Not saying that's what he really thinks but the reasoning is sound.

My first shave soaps were 100% KOH and were excellent. I started using NaOH and lard because one of the guys on Shave My Face forum sent me a piece of his shave soap made from those ingredients. I tried it and didn't notice a difference in performance ... and I can get lard and NaOH locally rather than reliance on internet ordering tallow and KOH.



> Dave, the comment from irishlass was what I was thinking of before, that the 2pot method to get only potster might well be a goose chase. Maybe also make up a small batch and see?



The main purpose of the 2-pot method is to ensure CO is the SF. I am confident that it works although I have no way to empirically determine this ... so if I make a test batch how would I test it to objectively quantify the difference?

(side note: my first batches were formulated from single-oil soaps that were all made to be 5% SF ... so the final product had unsaponified tallow, stearic, and CO)

(side side note: Lee's point about the actual amount of unsaponified fat is not lost on me ... to be totally honest I'm not overly worried about it either way)


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 24, 2014)

If the two pot method is primarly to get the CO as the SF, do the following - 

Work out your recipe with the full amounts of fats other than the CO.  Count only enough CO to give you between a 0-1% SF, depending on your measure for how spot on it can be.  Cook this up, so it is finished cooking and all lye has been saponified.  THEN add the left over CO.  

If we leave the potential for cation transfer which is still up in the air aside for now, this will give you a CO superfat in just one pot with a lot less faffing about.  Two pot cooking for superfat alone is really not required at all.


----------



## LBussy (Oct 24, 2014)

dosco said:


> I suspect Lee's reasoning is something like "we know that potassium salts are more water soluble than sodium salts, so shave soap should only be made from potassium hydroxide." Not saying that's what he really thinks but the reasoning is sound.


Close, I just wonder if we can assume that is true (more soluble) and if that seems to be a desirable trait, why would anyone use NaOH except to make a harder soap?  I'm hearing that's the only reason so that does answer my question.



> The main purpose of the 2-pot method is to ensure CO is the SF. I am confident that it works although I have no way to empirically determine this ... so if I make a test batch how would I test it to objectively quantify the difference?


I'm not sure this would be possible @ home.  In a large batch of oils one might be able to do some SG or melting point tests, but we're talking about a very small percentage of a solution/emulsion and I'm gonna guess that it's likely not going to happen in the kitchen.

Let me ask though:  Why?  If you like the soap, why worry about which fat is there?  If the answer is "because" I'm okay with that too ... I am in the same boat with wanting to know the science behind it.


----------



## dosco (Oct 24, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Close, I just wonder if we can assume that is true (more soluble) and if that seems to be a desirable trait, why would anyone use NaOH except to make a harder soap?  I'm hearing that's the only reason so that does answer my question.



As I mentioned I tried it, it worked well, and I can source it locally. For me this is a big help ... so (for me) using less KOH is not based on any scientific reason.




> Let me ask though:  Why?  If you like the soap, why worry about which fat is there?  If the answer is "because" I'm okay with that too ... I am in the same boat with wanting to know the science behind it.


lol, when you boil it all down the reason is "because."

Because some of the folks on SMF were horrified of the thought of tallow SF. ('it's comedogenic') I personally had no ill effects, nor do I care, but why start making soaps with possibly objectionable features?

Because my wife and sister-in-law are convinced that CO is "good for the skin."

Because my SIL asked for some CO soap ... I told her single-oil CO soap is too cleansing and she would find it unpleasant. She tried some tallow based shave soap I sent her husband (made in such a way as to SF only with CO) and she quite liked it. So the facial soap I made for Xmas was made with the intent that the SF would be CO.

Because once I've established my mfg process it's easy to stick with.

Really a series of probably questionable excuses with no scientific basis.


----------



## dosco (Oct 24, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> If we leave the potential for cation transfer which is still up in the air aside for now, this will give you a CO superfat in just one pot with a lot less faffing about.  Two pot cooking for superfat alone is really not required at all.



I thought the cation argument was with regards to potassium and sodium salts of fatty acids? Not SF.

Did I miss something again?


----------



## LBussy (Oct 24, 2014)

It was inferred in the original articles that choosing one's SF was an exercise in futility.  The references for that statement did not bear out that assertion.  So while we have no actual tests, we have no reason to believe that the metals are running around all nimbly pimbly.


----------



## dosco (Oct 24, 2014)

LBussy said:


> It was inferred in the original articles that choosing one's SF was an exercise in futility.  The references for that statement did not bear out that assertion.  So while we have no actual tests, we have no reason to believe that the metals are running around all nimbly pimbly.



Thanks. That's what I thought.

*whew*

Thought I was losing my mind for a minute. It's been a long week.

-Dave


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 24, 2014)

dosco said:


> I thought the cation argument was with regards to potassium and sodium salts of fatty acids? Not SF.
> 
> Did I miss something again?




It all started with talk of specific superfatting and how it is only possible in hp and not in cp. Someone then raised the question about the salts altering overtime to include the superfat that we worked so hard to have. 

As I said, I am not sold on it. 

I also don't find the mix of KOH and NaOH to be objectionable in a soap so will make batches of that from time to time. When selling I'll see what the people want!

Regarding your processes, I am not going to be heart-broken if you don't change from the two-pot when it isn't needed. It's entirely up to you. But in the nature of a soaping forum I do have to point it out, not only for you but also for people reading who might then think that a two pot method is required for selectively superfatting when it really is not.


----------



## kmarvel (Oct 24, 2016)

IrishLass said:


> For what it's worth, I use 2 tsp. ppo of kaolin clay in mine.
> 
> I talked to my hubby this morning about all the things that have been discussed in this thread, and even though he always constantly raves about my shave soap (he's been shaving with it for about 5 years now), I asked him again if there was anything about it that he would change (based on the discussion in this thread), and he said 'no'. He loves how it gives him a very smooth gliding shave with absolutely no nicks or cuts, and he also loves how nice it makes his skin feel afterwards (no drying or tightness).
> 
> ...



Hi Irishlass,

Is there anyway you could share your shaving soap recipe?  The one your hubby loves using one lye?  Thank you.


----------



## shunt2011 (Oct 24, 2016)

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34264


----------



## IrishLass (Oct 24, 2016)

kmarvel said:


> Hi Irishlass,
> 
> Is there anyway you could share your shaving soap recipe? The one your hubby loves using one lye? Thank you.


 
I am quite happy to share the bare bones of it, which I'm quite certain I've shared somewhere on the forum before:

60% high stearic fats (a combo of tallow and hard butters such as kokum butter and illipe butter)
20% castor oil
10% bubbly/cleansing oils
10% conditioning/liquid-at-room-temp oils 
Superfat of 8%
NaOH (lye concentration of 30%)

Additions:

10% glycerin ppo
2 tsp kaolin clay ppo
2 tbsp. sugar ppo (which I add to all my formulas)
Coconut cream as part of my water amount (I use 4 tsp. coconut cream powder ppo mixed with some of my water)

For what it's worth, the total stearic/palmitic acid content of this soap is 35%, and it is able to be CP'd quite well if soaped at 120F. 

The finished soap behaves very similar to the William's brand of shave pucks, which means there is a bit of a trial and error learning curve when it comes to finding the right amount of water and lathering technique to get the best shave out of it, but if you are patient enough to play with it and nail that down, you'll get a really great shave out of it without getting any nicks or cuts, and your face will be baby-butt smooth without experiencing any feeling of tightness or dryness to it (at least according to my hubby, and another experienced wet-shaving afficianado who was kind enough to test it out and provide honest/critical feedback.......and also my hand that felt the smoothness and suppleness of my hubby's face after he shaved with it).

HTH!
IrishLass


----------

