# EO vs FO: Thoughts???



## AliciaE (Feb 7, 2020)

Hey y’all!

I just recently started soaping and I have been making A LOT lately while trying to get the lay of the land. My recipes in the soapcalc are calling for around 1-1.5 oz of fragrance give or take. That seems like a lot to me...

I would really like to use essential oil to keep my soap natural and get all the benefits possible but it’s expensive and heck, and with the amount of soap I’m making while I go through my learning period, I cant even keep up with ordering more when I’m running out.

So my question for y’all, is it worth not getting the benefits of EO to save on the cost by using FO? I know the soap is no longer natural but is FO completely safe to use, as in no heath risks aside from maybe allergies? 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Obsidian (Feb 7, 2020)

I do consider FO safe to use or I wouldn't use it.
The benefits of EO doesn't survive in soap, all they do scent soap, nothing more.

I've found FO to smell better and last longer. I'll use EO in some leave on products like lotion or cleansing oils.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 7, 2020)

I'm with Obsidian. The only time I will use EOs in soap is for shave soap. For this purpose, I add the scent after the cook and I scent shave soap lightly, so the use of EOs is economical.

For bath soap, I use FOs all the way. Reasons -- Lower cost per ounce. Wider variety of scents. Many FOs last longer and smell stronger. And last but not least, I don't believe EOs in bath soap really do anything more than smell good.

I do pay attention to the recommended usage rates for FOs -- especially the IFRA guidelines if available. If the usage rates for a given FO are under about 6% for soap (IFRA category 9) or for lotions (IFRA cat 4), I generally won't buy that FO. More about IFRA guidelines: https://classicbells.com/soap/fragrance.asp


----------



## lsg (Feb 7, 2020)

I use both EOs and FOs.  There are many scents that you can't get with EOs.


----------



## shunt2011 (Feb 7, 2020)

I use mostly FO's. I have a couple that I use EO in,  I find they stick better and last longer. I use them at 6% in my soaps.     I agree with the others that any benefits of EO don't likely survive.   When I first started I used more EO's but found once I started selling that people were asking for fragrances like Love Spell and other dupes of fragrances on the market.   So, I switched.


----------



## amd (Feb 7, 2020)

I concur with all of the above. Just to clarify Shunt's statement: 


shunt2011 said:


> I have a couple that I use EO in, I find they stick better and last longer.


She means that she only uses a couple EO's that she has found to stick better and last longer - not that EO in general stick better and last longer. Not all do. I'm trying to use up my EO's and when they're gone they're gone. I briefly considered keeping Eucalyptus and Spearmint as I can get those pretty affordably and they hold well (and sell well!) but I've realized that I only get asked once or twice a year if I use EO's (and then by an EO rep who wants to sell me on the idea that if I use their oils I only need a few drops... so really... no one asks me about EO's), I get asked more if my soaps are vegan or not.

I know your goal is to sell, so you will need to evaluate what your target customers will want to buy. Are you selling to crunchy folks or minimalists? Are you selling to everyone? Are you selling to women in the 20-30's?


----------



## Misschief (Feb 7, 2020)

I have two or three soaps that I use EO's in (i.e. Goat Milk & Lavender, Charcoal & Lavender Castile, and one or two others); for the rest I use FO's as, like the others above, I find they last longer and my customers like them.


----------



## Millie (Feb 7, 2020)

Both


----------



## IrishLass (Feb 7, 2020)

To me, EO's are not worth the expense of using them in a wash-off product, especially when there are so few of them which can endure the the saponification process and come out smelling strong.  I'd much rather use them in other types of products where their benefits can be more efficiently utilized such as lotions and body butters and perfumes.

When it comes to my soaps, it's FOs all the way.


IrishLass


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 7, 2020)

For me with my allergies, FO's are safer than Essential Oils. Any other answers are pretty well covered above. The only EO's I regularly use are Lavender, Peppermint, Patchouli, Lemongrass, and Litsea. This is because I just cannot find good FO replacements and they are good sellers for me. Otherwise, it is fragrance oils for me.


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Feb 7, 2020)

I use EOs and FOs. When I use EOs in soap it’s because I love the scents, not for any health or skin benefits. Some makers have found that certain EOs last for 6 months or more in cp soap, as discussed in this thread.


----------



## Garden Gives Me Joy (Feb 8, 2020)

IrishLass said:


> To me, *EO's are not worth the expense of using them in a wash-off product*, especially when there are so few of them which can endure the the saponification process and come out smelling strong.  I'd much rather use them in other types of products where their benefits can be more efficiently utilized such as lotions and body butters and perfumes.



Agree. However, I am happy to make '_*fragrance free*_' soap. I have not yet begun to sell but figure that going 'fragrance free' creates a special niche of people that will appreciate it.


----------



## shunt2011 (Feb 8, 2020)

Garden Gives Me Joy said:


> Agree. However, I am happy to make '_*fragrance free*_' soap. I have not yet begun to sell but figure that going 'fragrance free' creates a special niche of people that will appreciate it.


Most of us also make fragrance free soap. That way all bases are covered. However, fragranced soap outsells unscented 90-1.


----------



## Garden Gives Me Joy (Feb 8, 2020)

shunt2011 said:


> Most of us also make fragrance free soap. That way all bases are covered. However, *fragranced soap outsells unscented 90-1*.



Having not yet sold, I was unaware of the significance of the difference.  

*Might customers be happy with subtle aromas from naturally aromatic extracts?* My soaps are certainly not strong smelling but, in some cases, the faint aroma is noticeable almost only by the user when (s)he uses it on the face or smells the product before using it.


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 8, 2020)

Garden Gives Me Joy said:


> Agree. However, I am happy to make '_*fragrance free*_' soap. I have not yet begun to sell but figure that going 'fragrance free' creates a special niche of people that will appreciate it.


Problem with that if selling it is to small a niche. I am lucky to sell half a dozen fragrance free bars a year.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 8, 2020)

_"...Might customers be happy with subtle aromas from naturally aromatic extracts?..."_

I'm sure a few will be fine with a mild fragrance, especially those with skin issues or sensitivities. But my experience has been that most people want a definite, clear scent. 

I sometimes take soap to a weekend-long event where people stay in a large guest house with shared bathing facilities. I put a big assortment of sample-sized bars in a basket on the kitchen counter and let people choose whatever soap they want. It's interesting to watch. Most will smell the bars first, then pick which one smells the nicest to them. The pattern, color, and the ingredients list are largely ignored by most.


----------



## dibbles (Feb 8, 2020)

I used to sell, but now only sell at one holiday market. Color or design might initially attract someone, but if they don’t like the smell, they won’t buy. I notice the same thing that @DeeAnna mentioned when I take a basket of soaps to family gatherings or to a group of friends. Generally, a well scented bar is selected over those that are lightly scented or unfragranced.


----------



## Garden Gives Me Joy (Feb 8, 2020)

Not quite what I wanted to hear but thanks for enlightening me.

Re FOs. Does the average person (ie who has no skin sensitivities) wanting '_natural_' products *consider FO fragranced soap 'natural'?* 

Re using EOs in leave-on products. I've seen recent online content discussing concerns over post-extraction residual hexane. *To what extent are consumers picky about the fact that EOs are mostly extracted using hexane?*


----------



## Arimara (Feb 8, 2020)

I use FO's mostly but I am more inclined to make unscented soaps since I'm lazier now. I have used an EO only once and have not looked back. It was peppermint, which while it was not wasted in the soap, I had other more practical uses for it.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Feb 9, 2020)

Garden Gives Me Joy said:


> Not quite what I wanted to hear but thanks for enlightening me.
> 
> Re FOs. Does the average person (ie who has no skin sensitivities) wanting '_natural_' products *consider FO fragranced soap 'natural'?*
> 
> Re using EOs in leave-on products. I've seen recent online content discussing concerns over post-extraction residual hexane. *To what extent are consumers picky about the fact that EOs are mostly extracted using hexane?*


To be honest - most people don't know much.  We do ,because we are interested to know for our soap making - but the general public just want something that smells nice. A few people might ask, but it's very rare.  I always explain that EOs don't last as well as FOs if they do. I've never had anyone turn down soap because it was not an EO.  I've had one person who wanted unscented in 7 months of selling.   However, to satisfy my own need for Eos, I still use a small amount of EO in all my soap.  Usually lemongrass, may chang, patchouli or sweet orange. I just choose the one which goes best with my fragrance oil.  For example - Rose FO, with Patchouli EO to anchor.  You can't smell the patchouli in the mix at all.
I still make some soap that is entirely EO - just because i like to have  a few 'special' ones.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 9, 2020)

As far as I can tell, "natural" means different things to different people. It's a losing battle to try to debate this kind of slippery concept.

As far as hexane in EOs -- that's news to me. Essential oils by definition are ONLY steam distilled or expressed (extracted with pressure). A so-called EO that's been solvent extracted is a "concrete", "absolute" or "oleoresin" not an EO. 

Anyone selling this type of product as an "essential oil" is misleading the consumer. As far as solvent residues in these products, I don't know enough to have an opinion.


----------



## Noreen Moore (Feb 9, 2020)

Has anyone used the blends of EO and FO? Can't remember the website but they had 3 categories. EO, FO, and the blends of EO and FO.
Sparked my curiosity!


----------



## goodcleanfunsoaps (Feb 9, 2020)

After selling for more that 15 years I have many customers that will only buy EO fragranced soap, particularly cold processed soap. It all depends on your customer base and what they want.


----------



## Garden Gives Me Joy (Feb 9, 2020)

When buying the FOs, *can I assume that they have the same note profile as their EO version?* 
Example, I mix rose EO with top note for other DIYs. Can I assume that I can buy the cheaper rose FO and combine it with a top note EO (or FO) to get the same or similar result?
Additionally, do FOs affect the color of soap?


----------



## Chixie (Feb 9, 2020)

Noreen Moore said:


> Has anyone used the blends of EO and FO? Can't remember the website but they had 3 categories. EO, FO, and the blends of EO and FO.
> Sparked my curiosity!



I have seen those at "The Handmade Studio" that is attached with Wholesale Supplies Plus.  I just happen to live 20 minutes away from the company and I can go in to view the products and make purchases that way.   You can learn which EO's and FO's that can compliment each other and blend them yourself. Their company has a scent wheel (like a color wheel except its for scents instead lol)  that you can get that shows you combinations that work well.  They have done the work for you when offering a blend.  I have not been very interested in trying those.  I have blended Bulgarian Lavender E.O. with Lavender F.O., ( big combo shocker there LOL!) because the combo seemed to help hold the wonderful scent of the Bulgarian Lavender better.  I was wondering the same thing about those blends, but they seem to be a bit pricey.


----------



## DKing (Feb 9, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> The only EO's I regularly use are Lavender, Peppermint, Patchouli, Lemongrass, and Litsea.



Those are the only essential oils I use anymore as well......well, I do also use a little black pepper sometimes too.


----------



## lsg (Feb 9, 2020)

Garden Gives Me Joy said:


> When buying the FOs, *can I assume that they have the same note profile as their EO version?*
> Example, I mix rose EO with top note for other DIYs. Can I assume that I can buy the cheaper rose FO and combine it with a top note EO (or FO) to get the same or similar result?
> Additionally, do FOs affect the color of soap?


Not all fragrance oils are equal.  Be sure to read the reviews before purchasing.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 9, 2020)

Garden Gives Me Joy said:


> When buying the FOs, *can I assume that they have the same note profile as their EO version?* Every nose is different so that is a hard question to answer. Some people can't smell the difference while some others may be able to break down an FO mix to each of its notes. It really depends on how your nose behaves when it comes to perfume notes to a scent.
> Example, I mix rose EO with top note for other DIYs. Can I assume that I can buy the cheaper rose FO and combine it with a top note EO (or FO) to get the same or similar result? You can do that if you feel it necessary or you can improve on the blend and make a unique product.
> Additionally, do FOs affect the color of soap? Some can. FOs with vanillin in it are known to discolor many a soap product. Some vendors will tell you just how much vanillin is in an FO, to help you make an informed choice but you really should always try to read customer reviews as well.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Feb 9, 2020)

Garden Gives Me Joy said:


> When buying the FOs, *can I assume that they have the same note profile as their EO version?*
> Example, I mix rose EO with top note for other DIYs. Can I assume that I can buy the cheaper rose FO and combine it with a top note EO (or FO) to get the same or similar result?
> Additionally, do FOs affect the color of soap?


Some FOs can discolour, yes.  You need to read the reviews before deciding if you can work with each FO.  I always mix FO and EO - as I said before the rose FO for example.  I can't afford rose EO, and I'm not sure it would last long in CP soap anyway.  So the FO with a Patchouli EO to anchor works very well.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 18, 2020)

Garden Gives Me Joy said:


> When buying the FOs, can I assume that they have the same note profile as their EO version?...



I wouldn't make that assumption. FOs are usually blended fragrances, not single-note scents. I suppose a few might be single notes, but that's the exception to the rule. Most FOs are blends that are evocative of, say, roses, but I wouldn't assume a rose-type FO will perform or smell the same as a rose EO. You'll just have to experiment to see what works best for your nose.

I mean ... think about it ... the fragrance of essential oils aren't all alike either, so a blend that smells great to you with one lavender EO might not smell the same using another type of lavender EO. Spike lavender, lavendin, French lavender, high altitude lavenders smell different even though their scents contain many fragrance chemicals in common.

People have strong preferences for one of these EOs over the others. So throw FOs into the mix, and it gets ... interesting.


----------



## MarnieSoapien (Feb 18, 2020)

@KiwiMoose when you say you use a small percentage of patchouli (for example) to anchor a FO, what percentage do you use? I just got an order of EOs and am looking forward to trying them out. 

I have found most of the soap makers here use EOs. I've decided to have 2 lines of soaps, one using FOs and micas and the other using EOs and clays.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Feb 19, 2020)

I'm finding that blending EO & FO seems to work best for a fragrance that sticks. Interestingly, WSP has expanded their list of blends. I've tried 2 of them and really like them. Unfortunately they are both now "special order" only:

Bladderwrack Natural EO & FO Blend
This scent is awesome. Used in activated charcoal bar. One bar left. Two years and scent is still strong.
https://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/store-search.aspx?FBK=Bladderwrack

PINK Natural EO & FO Blend
Smells like those pink school erasers OOB but soaps to a lovely floral scent, similar to peony to my nose. Used in ZNSC. Scent literally fills the curing room aka guest bedroom.
https://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/pink-fragrance-oil-eo-fo-blend.aspx

See Recommendations Forum for List of 88 Blends
_*https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/wsp-eo-fo-blends.78319/*_


----------



## MelissaG (Mar 6, 2020)

According to what I'm reading here, the benefits of an EO don't survive the saponification process. So I'm a little curious... I don't particularly like lavender, but many people do. I do use it in soaps I use for summer though. The reason being that I live in the swamp. The lavender keeps the mosquitos away. And yes, it does work. I have noticed that it works better with EO than it does with FO. So if the benefits of EO don't survive, then how do you explain this? It seems to me that some benefits must survive.


----------



## Susie (Mar 7, 2020)

Mosquitos have a sense of smell.  That is the reason they choose certain people over others.  Some plants are not a food source to them (the males drink from vegetation, females drink from animals to feed the eggs), so it makes perfect sense to me that they avoid the scent of those plants.


----------



## createmons (Nov 19, 2020)

They both have different properties for proper use is really up to you. But I personally, use EO which is good for sensitive skins because it is 100% pure and natural though in FO there are hundreds of varieties.


----------



## Peachy Clean Soap (Nov 19, 2020)

Both for all the reasons above.  Happy Soaping .


----------



## Arimara (Nov 20, 2020)

createmons said:


> They both have different properties for proper use is really up to you. _But I personally, use EO which is good for sensitive skins because it is 100% pure and natural _though in FO there are hundreds of varieties.


No offense but the best thing for sensitive skins is not to assume that case is the same. My daughter has very sensitive skin and I would not use EOs for her as they actually irritated her skin. I also won't use FOs with her unless neither of us have a reaction of any kind. I also point out that the words "pure" and "natural" are loaded terms that don't mean much, especially where safety is concerned. There are loads of things that are natural that can cause great harm to us, if they don't kill us first.


----------

