# Curious about syndet recipe I found + free resource library



## Corsara (Apr 3, 2021)

I was looking for syndet recipes on Etsy, and I came across this one.






						DIY Shampoo Bar Recipe  Make Your Own Super Simple Solid - Etsy
					

DIY Shampoo Bar Recipe - Digital file  Have you always want to make your own shampoo bar but did you think it was difficult? It is not! With this digital download, you will learn how easy (and fun!) it is to make your own shampoo bar. This will make your bathroom even more sustainable.   Do you want




					www.etsy.com
				




If you sign up for her email, you get free access to the recipe and other info.

I was super curious if someone with some experience with syndet could let me know what they think of such a simple recipe. Is it really going to be any good with only 4 ingredients?

Edit: Obviously I don't want to share her recipe on here, so I'm hoping one of you would be willing to sign up and take a look at it for me!


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## Quanta (Apr 4, 2021)

I haven't looked at the recipe, but I don't think I can narrow down my current recipe to only 4 ingredients. Are at least three of them surfactants? If I absolutely had to make a shampoo bar with only 4 ingredients, I'd use sodium cocoyl isethionate, sodium lauryl sulfoacetate, cocamidopropyl betaine, and either BTMS 25 or cetyl alcohol. Is that even close to this recipe?

ETA: I went ahead and signed up for her list to get the recipe. The ingredient she uses as a hardener is a lather killer. Also, in a shampoo it will not stay in the hair the way most people think it will, because it is the very thing that surfactants are designed to remove and shampoo is mostly surfactants. Save that ingredient for a conditioner bar. I'd still use either BTMS 25 or cetyl alcohol as a hardener in this recipe. I would have to experiment to settle on one or the other but I would try BTMS 25 first since it already contains some cetyl alcohol. I would also lower the hardener to 10% and add the difference to the main surfactant.

I also looked at her conditioner bar. It mostly looks good but might be a little draggy with cetearyl alcohol. I would swap that out for cetyl alcohol instead. She says to use it you get some on your hands and spread it through your hair that way, but mine I rub directly into my hair (same with shampoo). I guess that's why the draggy-ness matters to me. One other change I would make is to increase the first ingredient significantly. The conditioner bars I make are 60% that ingredient.


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## Corsara (Apr 4, 2021)

Quanta said:


> I haven't looked at the recipe, but I don't think I can narrow down my current recipe to only 4 ingredients. Are at least three of them surfactants? If I absolutely had to make a shampoo bar with only 4 ingredients, I'd use sodium cocoyl isethionate, sodium lauryl sulfoacetate, cocamidopropyl betaine, and either BTMS 25 or cetyl alcohol. Is that even close to this recipe?
> 
> ETA: I went ahead and signed up for her list to get the recipe. The ingredient she uses as a hardener is a lather killer. Also, in a shampoo it will not stay in the hair the way most people think it will, because it is the very thing that surfactants are designed to remove and shampoo is mostly surfactants. Save that ingredient for a conditioner bar. I'd still use either BTMS 25 or cetyl alcohol as a hardener in this recipe. I would have to experiment to settle on one or the other but I would try BTMS 25 first since it already contains some cetyl alcohol. I would also lower the hardener to 10% and add the difference to the main surfactant.
> 
> I also looked at her conditioner bar. It mostly looks good but might be a little draggy with cetearyl alcohol. I would swap that out for cetyl alcohol instead. She says to use it you get some on your hands and spread it through your hair that way, but mine I rub directly into my hair (same with shampoo). I guess that's why the draggy-ness matters to me. One other change I would make is to increase the first ingredient significantly. The conditioner bars I make are 60% that ingredient.


Thank you so much for signing up and taking a look for me! That's some really helpful info. I feel like syndet is not quite as complicated as I thought if it can have so few ingredients


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## Quanta (Apr 4, 2021)

Corsara said:


> Thank you so much for signing up and taking a look for me! That's some really helpful info. I feel like syndet is not quite as complicated as I thought if it can have so few ingredients


Yeah, syndet bars can be pretty simple. The main thing is you want more than one or two surfactants so that it will be mild. Three or four seems to be the sweet spot. Then you need something to hold it together and harden it. I put other stuff in mine, too, mostly to make it easier to apply to the hair. I find that it's faster to rub the bar directly on my wet head in the direction of my hair than trying to make leather in my hands and then transfer to my hair. Therefore I need it to be nice and glidy and I have ingredients for that.

I am going to go ahead and make little tester bars to see which ingredient works best as a hardener with this formula. I will make one trial sized bar of each: BTMS 25, BTMS 50, and cetyl alcohol. Usually I use BTMS 25, cetyl alcohol, and stearic acid, plus sodium lactate to help it harden. We're about to find out what happens if I can only pick one! I already know it's not stearic acid because too much of that is a lather killer, too. And we would need a lot of it if it was the only hardener. It also is too draggy and does not glide. I try to keep the percentage low in my bars but it does help in small amounts. 

Anyway, I'll update here when I have had a chance to compare them.


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## Corsara (Apr 4, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Yeah, syndet bars can be pretty simple. The main thing is you want more than one or two surfactants so that it will be mild. Three or four seems to be the sweet spot. Then you need something to hold it together and harden it. I put other stuff in mine, too, mostly to make it easier to apply to the hair. I find that it's faster to rub the bar directly on my wet head in the direction of my hair than trying to make leather in my hands and then transfer to my hair. Therefore I need it to be nice and glidy and I have ingredients for that.
> 
> I am going to go ahead and make little tester bars to see which ingredient works best as a hardener with this formula. I will make one trial sized bar of each: BTMS 25, BTMS 50, and cetyl alcohol. Usually I use BTMS 25, cetyl alcohol, and stearic acid, plus sodium lactate to help it harden. We're about to find out what happens if I can only pick one! I already know it's not stearic acid because too much of that is a lather killer, too. And we would need a lot of it if it was the only hardener. It also is too draggy and does not glide. I try to keep the percentage low in my bars but it does help in small amounts.
> 
> Anyway, I'll update here when I have had a chance to compare them.


That's fantastic, I can't wait to hear your results!! I really want to learn more about syndet bars, but it's pretty overwhelming how much info there is


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## Emmamia (Apr 5, 2021)

Hi, Good info. I just started making and using shampoo bars.... I bought my recipe from Etsy. I love how my hair looks and feels, but; my scalp has started to itch.... Any idea if any of the  (common) surfactants used for shampoo bars are prompt cause itching?


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## Quanta (Apr 5, 2021)

Emmamia said:


> Hi, Good info. I just started making and using shampoo bars.... I bought my recipe from Etsy. I love how my hair looks and feels, but; my scalp has started to itch.... Any idea if any of the  (common) surfactants used for shampoo bars are prompt cause itching?


Are you using the Etsy recipe that uses something like 73% sodium cocoyl isethionate? Because that is far, far above the safe limit for that ingredient. It should be 50 to 55% maximum. If you're using a different formula, you may need to do some trials to see what is causing the itching. Compare the ingredients of your bars to the ingredients of whatever you were using before you started itching to see what ingredients are new to your scalp. That will help narrow it down.

Always check the ingredients you're using to see what the safe limit is. The vendor should supply that information. If not, do a search online.

Having said that, anyone can be allergic to anything. I was itching and went to a dermatologist for a patch test, and it turns out I am allergic to preservatives that are formaldehyde releasers, which are incredibly popular among DIY skin care formulators. It is also what a lot of commercial manufacturers are using these days as consumers pressure them to stop using parabens.


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## justjacqui (Apr 5, 2021)

@Emmamia Some people report having a reaction (itching etc) to SLSa (sodium lauryl sulfoacetate) and SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate). If you are using either of these surfactants try substituting it with another surfactant.

Hope this helps


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## Quanta (Apr 5, 2021)

Corsara said:


> That's fantastic, I can't wait to hear your results!! I really want to learn more about syndet bars, but it's pretty overwhelming how much info there is


The test bars are made and drying now. In a few weeks when I've had a chance to use each one a few times, I'll report back.


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## violets2217 (Apr 5, 2021)

Corsara said:


> I was looking for syndet recipes on Etsy, and I came across this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So I subscribed and it took me to the website and I’m pretty sure it’s all in German! So no clue what I’m looking at or where the free recipe might be...
What did I do wrong?


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## Emmamia (Apr 5, 2021)

justjacqui said:


> @Emmamia Some people report having a reaction (itching etc) to SLSa (sodium lauryl sulfoacetate) and SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate). If you are using either of these surfactants try substituting it with another surfactant.
> 
> Hope this helps


Yes, it does help me a lot... thank you much for responding... And yes; I’m using SLSa. Just wondering if all surfactants can be substituted by another one at the same %.


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## Corsara (Apr 5, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> So I subscribed and it took me to the website and I’m pretty sure it’s all in German! So no clue what I’m looking at or where the free recipe might be...
> What did I do wrong?


I just entered the password as directed and scrolled down, and the recipe was there in English. My phone also offers to translate it, but I found it easy enough to navigate without


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## Corsara (Apr 5, 2021)

justjacqui said:


> @Emmamia Some people report having a reaction (itching etc) to SLSa (sodium lauryl sulfoacetate) and SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate). If you are using either of these surfactants try substituting it with another surfactant.
> 
> Hope this helps


I'd heard that about SLS, but not about SLSa. What other options are there?


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## Corsara (Apr 5, 2021)

Quanta said:


> The test bars are made and drying now. In a few weeks when I've had a chance to use each one a few times, I'll report back.


Looking forward to hearing the results!


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## Quanta (Apr 6, 2021)

Emmamia said:


> Yes, it does help me a lot... thank you much for responding... And yes; I’m using SLSa. Just wondering if all surfactants can be substituted by another one at the same %.


Not really. Each will have its own maximum safe percentage. This should be available from the vendor you buy it from.
I would first verify that the SLSa is what you're reacting to. Can you post just the surfactants and the percentage you're using in your bars? Not the whole recipe, since that was purchased. Also, what shampoo were you using before the itching started? What surfactants are in that?


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## Quanta (Apr 6, 2021)

Corsara said:


> I'd heard that about SLS, but not about SLSa. What other options are there?


If you have a subscription to swiftcraftymonkey, Susan has a whole page on powdered surfactants: Creating a shampoo bar from scratch: Let’s meet the powdered surfactants – Point of Interest

This one is helpful too: Creating a shampoo bar from scratch: Modifying the base formula with different surfactants – Point of Interest


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## earlene (Apr 6, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> So I subscribed and it took me to the website and I’m pretty sure it’s all in German! So no clue what I’m looking at or where the free recipe might be...
> What did I do wrong?



Does your browser have a Translator option? Mine does. It's in the upper right corner for FireFox and is a red *T*.








Chrome & Safari use Google Translate, some others use add-ons for Translators.  If you do a search with your search engine, you can learn how to use the translator you have or install and use one for your browser (and device).


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## amd (Apr 12, 2021)

I signed up and looked over the recipe, it's essentially the same as HumbleBee and Me's More Mango recipe here: More Mango Sulfate-Free Shampoo Bar - Humblebee & Me
Which I coincidentally made over the weekend. The only difference is HumbleBee (Marie) used a different surfactant (Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, which you can sub SLSa with) added in a Polyquaternium 7 and reduced the amount of butter. It shouldn't kill the lather even if you leave it as done in the original Etsy recipe. (I'm not sure where this idea comes from honestly, I have not yet seen it happen yet in soap or syndets.) I have not tried the HumbleBee bar yet, I made it on Sunday so I'm testing my patience to wait until Wednesday to try it. I'm really leaning towards less is more these days as I read and learn more about hair and shampoo. Although I did tweak the HumbleBee recipe a bit (I didn't have the Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate so I used SLSa, or Polyquaternium 7 so I used honeyquat, I also used walnut oil instead of a butter, and added in 1% silk amino acids because that is one thing I can tell the difference in all the recipes I have tried), so it's probably closer to the syndet that you linked above.


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## amd (Apr 12, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> So I subscribed and it took me to the website and I’m pretty sure it’s all in German! So no clue what I’m looking at or where the free recipe might be...
> What did I do wrong?


Nothing. Did you get the password entered from the email link here?




Enter password in the circled, and click the box by arrow.
Once you're in the website, scroll to the bottom and the first video on the left is the shampoo bar, click the link (circled red) to open the pdf. It opens in English.





I'm not sure if this is how it looks for you - I happen to work for a German company so my website options may already be set to translate.


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## Quanta (Apr 12, 2021)

amd said:


> Nothing. Did you get the password entered from the email link here?
> View attachment 56037
> 
> Enter password in the circled, and click the box by arrow.
> ...


The website is in Dutch for me, as it is in your screenshot. I don't know if or how some people are seeing it in German, but if you are, you might have accidentally set your browser to translate Dutch into German.


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## violets2217 (Apr 12, 2021)

amd said:


> Nothing. Did you get the password entered from the email link here?


Thanks! I just went back to the link in my email and the password option popped up. I'm on my phone...and I don't remember the password option popping up the first time.



Quanta said:


> The website is in Dutch for me, as it is in your screenshot. I don't know if or how some people are seeing it in German, but if you are, you might have accidentally set your browser to translate Dutch into German.



It probably is Dutch, I do not speak either language... so I just assumed it was German.... Sorry!


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## Quanta (Apr 12, 2021)

amd said:


> It shouldn't kill the lather even if you leave it as done in the original Etsy recipe. (I'm not sure where this idea comes from honestly, I have not yet seen it happen yet in soap or syndets.)


I see it whenever I wash dishes. The dishwashing detergent (Dawn) always lathers less if I'm using it on particularly greasy dishes.
I think that I'm now going to have to make a test bar with the butter in it just to test this. I wasn't originally because I assumed it would have a negative impact on lather, but now I want to see how much of an impact it really has. I still have never seen the Etsy recipe, but my own bars usually have only 1 or 2% coconut oil, just for the slip.


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## Corsara (Apr 12, 2021)

amd said:


> I signed up and looked over the recipe, it's essentially the same as HumbleBee and Me's More Mango recipe here: More Mango Sulfate-Free Shampoo Bar - Humblebee & Me
> Which I coincidentally made over the weekend. The only difference is HumbleBee (Marie) used a different surfactant (Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, which you can sub SLSa with) added in a Polyquaternium 7 and reduced the amount of butter. It shouldn't kill the lather even if you leave it as done in the original Etsy recipe. (I'm not sure where this idea comes from honestly, I have not yet seen it happen yet in soap or syndets.) I have not tried the HumbleBee bar yet, I made it on Sunday so I'm testing my patience to wait until Wednesday to try it. I'm really leaning towards less is more these days as I read and learn more about hair and shampoo. Although I did tweak the HumbleBee recipe a bit (I didn't have the Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate so I used SLSa, or Polyquaternium 7 so I used honeyquat, I also used walnut oil instead of a butter, and added in 1% silk amino acids because that is one thing I can tell the difference in all the recipes I have tried), so it's probably closer to the syndet that you linked above.


Thanks for this info! I'm still really trying to tie down a basic recipe to try so I can order a few supplies without getting a bunch of stuff I might not use. 

What is the purpose of the Polyquaternium 7 or honeyquat?

And what difference do you see with the silk amino acids?


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## Savonette (Apr 13, 2021)

Emmamia said:


> Hi, Good info. I just started making and using shampoo bars.... I bought my recipe from Etsy. I love how my hair looks and feels, but; my scalp has started to itch.... Any idea if any of the  (common) surfactants used for shampoo bars are prompt cause itching?


Same here. The only thing this formula has that others I’ve tried don’t is Vitamin E. I have read that’s another common irritant.


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## Savonette (Apr 13, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Yeah, syndet bars can be pretty simple. The main thing is you want more than one or two surfactants so that it will be mild. Three or four seems to be the sweet spot. Then you need something to hold it together and harden it. I put other stuff in mine, too, mostly to make it easier to apply to the hair. I find that it's faster to rub the bar directly on my wet head in the direction of my hair than trying to make leather in my hands and then transfer to my hair. Therefore I need it to be nice and glidy and I have ingredients for that.
> 
> I am going to go ahead and make little tester bars to see which ingredient works best as a hardener with this formula. I will make one trial sized bar of each: BTMS 25, BTMS 50, and cetyl alcohol. Usually I use BTMS 25, cetyl alcohol, and stearic acid, plus sodium lactate to help it harden. We're about to find out what happens if I can only pick one! I already know it's not stearic acid because too much of that is a lather killer, too. And we would need a lot of it if it was the only hardener. It also is too draggy and does not glide. I try to keep the percentage low in my bars but it does help in small amounts.
> 
> Anyway, I'll update here when I have had a chance to compare them.


I used my younger sister and 5 of her friends as a test group.  I learned some good stuff and I didn’t have to make less than 6 oz batches. But eventually those young ladies forgot my agenda and most of them didn’t bother responding unless nagged. THEN I found out my mother  shared her samples with her friends and I’m telling you!  Mama and her friends are ALWAYS happy to tell you what’s what. 

Another note, watch your surfactant blend when mixing in cationics. They don’t all play well together.


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## Quanta (Apr 13, 2021)

Savonette said:


> Another note, watch your surfactant blend when mixing in cationics. They don’t all play well together.


Yes, because they'll separate in a water solution. Not a concern in bars, though, because there is no water solution to separate out of. That's the #1 reason I don't make liquid shampoo - I wouldn't be able to use BTMS in it.


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## Savonette (Apr 13, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Yes, because they'll separate in a water solution. Not a concern in bars, though, because there is no water solution to separate out of. That's the #1 reason I don't make liquid shampoo - I wouldn't be able to use BTMS in it.


Maybe that was it. I thought I’d read about a few ingredients becoming unstable if pH, % used and star alignment weren’t perfect and just moved on...


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## amd (Apr 13, 2021)

Emmamia said:


> I bought my recipe from Etsy. I love how my hair looks and feels, but; my scalp has started to itch.... Any idea if any of the (common) surfactants used for shampoo bars are prompt cause itching?


If it's the recipe from DIY Bath and Body (or Body and Bath, never sure which order they have it in), then it is because they have the SCI at an unsafe usage rate (in the 70% if I remember, the max safe usage rate for SCI is 50-55%, depending on where you get it from, I have seen it as low as 35% from some suppliers). The high SCI is causing irritation. I had this problem with this recipe as well, which was one of the (many, so many) reasons I have struck out to trying other formulations to see what's possible and even trying my hand at my own formulations.



Corsara said:


> What is the purpose of the Polyquaternium 7 or honeyquat?


It's a conditioning humectant (basically), it helps smooth hair and detangles. In wash off products it will still leave a film on hair providing some protection from damage. 



Corsara said:


> And what difference do you see with the silk amino acids?


Exactly what you would expect from silk - adds smoothness and softness. I've played with the same formulations with and without it, and without it the shampoo bars ends up being draggy and leave my hair with that too squeaky clean feeling. I think it adds some shine to my hair as well. My hair tends to be rather dull thanks to a couple decades of coloring my hair with cheap drugstore color (not that there's anything wrong with that, it just doesn't work for my hair type). I've done some playing with DL-Panthenol and the silk, and I narrowed it down to the silk giving the results that I want.


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## Quanta (Apr 28, 2021)

Quanta said:


> The test bars are made and drying now. In a few weeks when I've had a chance to use each one a few times, I'll report back.








OK. The test bars I made were according to the original recipe. All percentages were the same. The only difference is that I switched out the hardener for each one. I used SCI noodles that never really seemed to melt, so there were little noodle pieces all throughout. The grey/purple one was made with BTMS 50, the pink one with BTMS 25, and the cream one with cetyl alcohol. No fragrance or any additives (other than a little mica to tell them apart). Each bar was about 15g. The mold is an ice cube mold from IKEA that I use for test size products of all kinds.

I gave each bar to my parents, and to my husband, and I used it myself. My father and husband gave rather generic, useless feedback ("it's shampoo", they said). My mother was more helpful. She also has a very different hair type than I do. So I will be including her feedback here. She kept comparing these to "the blue one", which she really likes and is currently my standard recipe. It has BTMS 25, coconut oil, cetyl alcohol, and stearic acid.

I used the shampoo by itself without conditioner to see the effects of the conditioning ingredients. I also used it as body wash, which I don't think anyone else did. I used each one at least once.

The first one (grey/purple) had BTMS 50. This one, my mother said didn't feel like it rinsed out well. She also said it didn't lather well. I felt like it lathered almost adequately, but it wasn't an impressive amount. She rubbed it between her hands and transferred the lather to her hair, I rubbed the bar on my wet hair directly. It did glide across my hair reasonably well without feeling draggy. My hair felt squeaky after rinsing and it was hard to brush wet (with a Wet Brush https://www.amazon.com/Wet-Brush-Select-Original-Detangler/dp/B07CWQXQCY/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&). No detangling properties at all, and when my hair dried, there was a lot of static. So, I feel like the conditioning ingredients didn't adsorb onto my hair well enough to do very much. My hair felt dry and dull. Using as body wash, it didn't seem to get my skin as clean as I would like. On the plus side though, I didn't need to slather myself in lotion after my shower, so I guess that's good.

The one with BTMS 25 (pink) was a little better, but still didn't clean very well. Lather still unimpressive. Using this one as body wash still didn't get me feeling clean. The static with this one was still present. Still no detangling. I really am convinced that shampoo washes most of the conditioners down the drain.

The one with cetyl alcohol (cream) was a little better. My mother liked this one best of the three, but she still liked "the blue one" better. I think my static was the worst with this one. She has problems with frizziness and I have problems with static. This didn't help any and she still had to use her anti-frizz spray.

I still have not made the one with cocoa butter. I will do it when I feel up to it.
I also have a bar that is similar to my standard recipe that I used noodles to make. I am going to wash my hair with that one once or twice to compare, to see how much of the difference is due to the noodles, rather than the ingredient selection.


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## Corsara (Apr 28, 2021)

Quanta said:


> View attachment 56678
> 
> 
> OK. The test bars I made were according to the original recipe. All percentages were the same. The only difference is that I switched out the hardener for each one. I used SCI noodles that never really seemed to melt, so there were little noodle pieces all throughout. The grey/purple one was made with BTMS 50, the pink one with BTMS 25, and the cream one with cetyl alcohol. No fragrance or any additives (other than a little mica to tell them apart). Each bar was about 15g. The mold is an ice cube mold from IKEA that I use for test size products of all kinds.
> ...


Thank you for the update! I'm curious on the difference between these and the noodles in your other recipe.


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## Quanta (Apr 28, 2021)

Corsara said:


> Thank you for the update! I'm curious on the difference between these and the noodles in your other recipe.


The short answer, thus far, is that I hate the noodles and will never buy them again.


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## violets2217 (Apr 28, 2021)

Quanta said:


> The short answer, thus far, is that I hate the noodles and will never buy them again.


I hate the noodles too because I can not mold them... but then I made what I call a hybrid bar... I split my sci 50/50 half noodle half powder, and I quite like them. I melt everything in double boiler except FO and preservative and once they cool down enough for the preservative they are still malleable enough to press perfectly! They also dry into a VERY HARD bar after 24 hours. Plus they look cute with the noodles... and I feel like they last longer!?!?!?


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## Quanta (Apr 29, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> I hate the noodles too because I can not mold them... but then I made what I call a hybrid bar... I split my sci 50/50 half noodle half powder, and I quite like them. I melt everything in double boiler except FO and preservative and once they cool down enough for the preservative they are still malleable enough to press perfectly! They also dry into a VERY HARD bar after 24 hours. Plus they look cute with the noodles... and I feel like they last longer!?!?!?


I am going to try that to use up the noodles I have. Good thing I only bought one pound.


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## AliOop (Apr 29, 2021)

I’ve read that some folks grind their noodles into powder using their coffee grinder. Probably messy as all get-out but maybe worth the one-time hassle so you aren’t stuck with noodles.

ETA: a soaping-dedicated coffee grinder of course... not the one you also use for your actual coffee.


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## Quanta (Apr 29, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I’ve read that some folks grind their noodles into powder using their coffee grinder. Probably messy as all get-out but maybe worth the one-time hassle so you aren’t stuck with noodles.
> 
> ETA: a soaping-dedicated coffee grinder of course... not the one you also use for your actual coffee.


I already have some that I ground up with a mortar and pestle. I just haven't gotten around to doing anything with it yet. I figure if I'm going to grind it, I might as well buy the powder and add a little stearic acid, because it's the same thing with less effort. (The noodles are held together with stearic acid). 

My only coffee grinder is already dedicated to charcoal. No way I'm putting SCI in it.


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## violets2217 (Apr 29, 2021)

Quanta said:


> My only coffee grinder is already dedicated to charcoal. No way I'm putting SCI in it.


SO... stupid question maybe! What to you grind to make you charcoal? I know my Activated charcoal is bamboo. So this is me assuming you make your own homemade Activated charcoal and now I'm intrigued! I should have PM'd you so as not to hijack this thread...SORRY!


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## Quanta (Apr 29, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> SO... stupid question maybe! What to you grind to make you charcoal? I know my Activated charcoal is bamboo. So this is me assuming you make your own homemade Activated charcoal and now I'm intrigued! I should have PM'd you so as not to hijack this thread...SORRY!


Oh, it isn't related to soap or shampoo at all. I have a bag of horticultural charcoal chunks (Mosser Lee 2.25 Qt. Dry Horticultural Organic Charcoal-0810 - The Home Depot) that I grind to a powder, because I needed charcoal powder that is specifically _not_ activated because activated charcoal doesn't burn, and I use mine to make incense. I looked all over the internet and almost no one sells charcoal powder that isn't activated. Those who do, charge an arm and a leg, so I buy the chunks and grind it myself to save money.
I have a canister of activated charcoal if I want to use it in soap, I just never have. I put the activated charcoal in my censer, mixed with diatomaceous earth and it prevents the ashy smell of a used censer but still lets air flow all around the embers.

Sorry to disappoint!

ETA: The coffee grinder I use is a little manual one used for camping, not an electric one. I would never put anything combustible in an electric grinder.


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## Kelluskoils (May 1, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I’ve read that some folks grind their noodles into powder using their coffee grinder. Probably messy as all get-out but maybe worth the one-time hassle so you aren’t stuck with noodles.
> 
> ETA: a soaping-dedicated coffee grinder of course... not the one you also use for your actual coffee.


Hey! I recently bought a coffee grinder to grind my noodles. So much better than the pastel and mortar and a lot less time consuming


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## Quanta (May 1, 2021)

Quanta said:


> I also have a bar that is similar to my standard recipe that I used noodles to make. I am going to wash my hair with that one once or twice to compare, to see how much of the difference is due to the noodles, rather than the ingredient selection.


I used this bar to wash my hair. It did have better lather. However, the noodles kept falling out and I could feel loose noodles in my hair. This was the first experimental bar I made with the noodles instead of powder, and I think maybe I did not melt it enough. The one bar I made where the noodles melted sufficiently to incorporate into the bar properly, I had to microwave the living daylights out of it to get it do so. That is the bar my husband is currently using and he hasn't complained. But I don't think he'd notice the difference between a really good bar, and a bad one.


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## amd (May 4, 2021)

Quanta said:


> OK. The test bars I made were according to the original recipe.


Refresh my memory - this is the recipe from the dutch lady? I'm trying to remember what she was using for hardener, but I've been down a few rabbit holes the last few weeks and was supposed to be in Albuquerque but seem to be in Cheyboygan. 

Reporting in on my Modified More Mango bars... after using for 2 weeks, I'm really happy with my hair. I've had no fading from my salon color - my hair dresser and I were concerned with the color used on my stubborn gray streaks, but so far even that is holding well. My bar and my husband's bar are both holding up through drop testing  so this is already putting them in the lead of any other shampoo bar we've used. My husband is really happy with how his hair is behaving and has already placed a replacement order, lol. I do want to order (and will, I just haven't got to it yet) C14-16 to see if it makes a difference, and expand my surfactant knowledge/experience. The larger batch bars that I had to add a bunch of water to are dried out now but still holding together very well despite some cracking on their surface. They've been dropped tested and handled excessively while I was playing with packaging options (wrapping, and trying different label and band sizes). I'll be doing a mail test later this week when I send one to my cousin to try out.

I'm debating starting a conditioner bar thread (one of the rabbit holes I've been down), but for the moment I'll just jot it down here.
I've never used a conditioner bar before, so I'm not entirely sure what to look for in a good performing bar, so my comments are completely based on only using this one bar. I took the recipe from the Dutch Lady (found in this post) and made a few tweaks. Off the top of my head:
      I replaced the coconut oil with babassu - I have a raw coconut oil sensitivity, I'm fine with it in soap, lotions but just straight CO will turn my skin instantly bright red and itchy, I wasn't sure how I would react to it mixed with other ingredients in a conditioner bar  so I decided to play it safe. 
      Instead of Argan oil I used sunflower oil - I didn't want to use my precious argan in something I might not like, so I chose a light liquid oil that absorbs quickly.
     I did take out about 1-2% of the liquid oil and replace that with broccoli seed oil - it's a natural alternative to silicones (if I remember right, if not, well then I guess I added it by mistake!)
     Oh, and then the big one, I didn't have cetearyl alcohol, so I used a 70/30 blend of cetyl alcohol and stearic acid.

My husband and I have been using this for a few days now - I've used it twice, he's used it 3 times, I think. I broke the bar almost perfectly in half when I unmolded it (it was mostly frozen), so we're able to both try it out. He likes it, which I found interesting as he told me that he doesn't use conditioner. He really uses a lot, he says he rubs it around until his hands look like they're covered in lotion. I'm a bit more conservative, I just use enough to feel a light covering on my hair. He really likes it so far, his hair is prone to being oily and this seems to not make him more oily. I like my hair the day after washing, but on skip day I wasn't as big of a fan. My hair didn't look greasy, but it felt a bit more oily and looked flat/weighed down. We're going to keep playing with this one, and more than likely I will be messing with the recipe again, I'm not a fan of how easily the bar melted just carrying it from the soap dungeon to the shower. Likely this bar wouldn't survive a summer in my house (no air conditioning). I may try a butter with a bit higher melting point instead of the babassu, or a mix of the two.


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## AliOop (May 4, 2021)

@amd and @Quanta that is all really helpful info, thank you. 

Question about the silk proteins: I seem to have accidentally purchased one that is water soluble, not oil soluble. But it didn't say anything about that in the ingredient description, so I had no clue until it wouldn't mix into my lotion bars. Can anyone recommend an oil-soluble brand of silk protein from a reputable supplier?


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## Quanta (May 4, 2021)

amd said:


> Refresh my memory - this is the recipe from the dutch lady? I'm trying to remember what she was using for hardener, but I've been down a few rabbit holes the last few weeks and was supposed to be in Albuquerque but seem to be in Cheyboygan.


Yes, that's the one. She used cocoa butter for the hardener. I still haven't made one that way, but I will. I am also going to try her conditioner bar, as written. I have all the ingredients for it, except cetearyl alcohol, but I have cetyl and stearyl alcohol so I'm going to mix them 50/50 and use that. 

If you're going to try substituting some or all of the SLSa in your shampoo with Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, make sure you read this first, if you haven't already:






						Surfactants: Alkyl sulfonates – like Bioterge AS-40 or Bioterge AS-90 (INCI: C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate) – Point of Interest
					






					www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog
				




Basically, it's quite a bit more alkaline than SLSa, so you will probably need to adjust the pH a bit. She says it's great for oily hair, so your husband will probably like it. If you do try it, make sure you let us know how it turns out.


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## Quanta (May 4, 2021)

AliOop said:


> @amd and @Quanta that is all really helpful info, thank you.
> 
> Question about the silk proteins: I seem to have accidentally purchased one that is water soluble, not oil soluble. But it didn't say anything about that in the ingredient description, so I had no clue until it wouldn't mix into my lotion bars. Can anyone recommend an oil-soluble brand of silk protein from a reputable supplier?


Formulator Sample Shop has one: Silk Hydrolysate OS

I haven't used it myself, I have only the water soluble kind. I know you can get powders too, but I think those are meant to dissolve into water as well. I don't know what would happen if you tried to mix powdered silk protein into oil.


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## AliOop (May 5, 2021)

Thanks @Quanta. Were you able to incorporate the water soluble silk protein into your shampoo bars or conditioner bars? I sometimes add a teensy bit of water to my shampoo bars, but never to my conditioner bars (or lotion bars). So unless there is a trick I'm missing, I'm stuck with silk proteins that are unusable for my intended purposes.


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## Quanta (May 5, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Thanks @Quanta. Were you able to incorporate the water soluble silk protein into your shampoo bars or conditioner bars? I sometimes add a teensy bit of water to my shampoo bars, but never to my conditioner bars (or lotion bars). So unless there is a trick I'm missing, I'm stuck with silk proteins that are unusable for my intended purposes.


I went back and looked at my notes, and it looks like I used to use it in both. I didn't notice any difference with it in so I don't use it anymore in rinse-off products. It never really incorporated into my conditioner bars anyway, so that may have been the main reason I don't use it in conditioner anymore. I made a leave-in hair conditioner spray and used it in that, but haven't experimented enough to be able to tell how much of a difference it makes in that product.


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## violets2217 (May 5, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Thanks @Quanta. Were you able to incorporate the water soluble silk protein into your shampoo bars or conditioner bars? I sometimes add a teensy bit of water to my shampoo bars, but never to my conditioner bars (or lotion bars). So unless there is a trick I'm missing, I'm stuck with silk proteins that are unusable for my intended purposes.


 I use water soluble Hydrolyzed Hemp Protein in my shampoo and conditioner bars and never seem to have trouble with them incorporating. Of course it’s a recipe I bought with lots of ingredients that probably help with the emulsion prior to solidifying!?!?


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## Corsara (May 5, 2021)

amd said:


> Refresh my memory - this is the recipe from the dutch lady? I'm trying to remember what she was using for hardener, but I've been down a few rabbit holes the last few weeks and was supposed to be in Albuquerque but seem to be in Cheyboygan.
> 
> Reporting in on my Modified More Mango bars... after using for 2 weeks, I'm really happy with my hair. I've had no fading from my salon color - my hair dresser and I were concerned with the color used on my stubborn gray streaks, but so far even that is holding well. My bar and my husband's bar are both holding up through drop testing  so this is already putting them in the lead of any other shampoo bar we've used. My husband is really happy with how his hair is behaving and has already placed a replacement order, lol. I do want to order (and will, I just haven't got to it yet) C14-16 to see if it makes a difference, and expand my surfactant knowledge/experience. The larger batch bars that I had to add a bunch of water to are dried out now but still holding together very well despite some cracking on their surface. They've been dropped tested and handled excessively while I was playing with packaging options (wrapping, and trying different label and band sizes). I'll be doing a mail test later this week when I send one to my cousin to try out.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the ongoing info! I'm considering getting the ingredients for the Mango recipe, as a place to start without trying to understand substitutions. My Lush shampoo bars that I have been using for years are starting to irritate my scalp, so I'm eager to find an alternative. I'm pretty sure they are based on SLS. 

I've used a Lush conditioner bar before too, but I'm not sure which one it was, so I don't have an ingredient list. I honestly didn't find it did much, and I gave up on it pretty quickly. It sat in a box for ages, and I just threw it out recently


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## Quanta (May 5, 2021)

Corsara said:


> Thanks for the ongoing info! I'm considering getting the ingredients for the Mango recipe, as a place to start without trying to understand substitutions. My Lush shampoo bars that I have been using for years are starting to irritate my scalp, so I'm eager to find an alternative. I'm pretty sure they are based on SLS.
> 
> I've used a Lush conditioner bar before too, but I'm not sure which one it was, so I don't have an ingredient list. I honestly didn't find it did much, and I gave up on it pretty quickly. It sat in a box for ages, and I just threw it out recently


I don't trust Lush. Yes, their shampoo bars (at least some of them) are based on SLS, and the pH of some of their shampoo formulas is waaaaay too high for hair. Their formulators just don't know what they're doing sometimes. And while I'm at it, what is holding the SLS noodles together? The only other ingredients are aqueous plant extracts and essential oils.

I just went and read the ingredient lists for a bunch of Lush's shampoo bars on their website, and most use SLS as the only surfactant, which is stupid. SLS on its own is notoriously irritating to the skin, which is why most formulators add some CAPB to make it a lot milder. I wouldn't be surprised if Lush bars had CAPB in them and they didn't disclose it in the list of ingredients due to it being another "unpronounceable chemical" or something. I suspect they do that a lot, because reading ingredient lists for some of their other products they always seem to be missing things that should be in that type of product. Emulsifiers, preservatives, fatty alcohols, and anything else that normally has a scary chemical name. They do have a sort of ingredient encyclopedia on the website that explains some of those ingredients (they call them "safe synthetics") but not the ones with longer names or bad reputations. Undeserved bad reputations, in my opinion, but there is a lot of misunderstanding out there being passed along as fact by influential mommy bloggers. 

*takes a deep breath* Ok, I need to start just ignoring mentions of Lush around here.


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## Corsara (May 5, 2021)

Quanta said:


> I don't trust Lush. Yes, their shampoo bars (at least some of them) are based on SLS, and the pH of some of their shampoo formulas is waaaaay too high for hair. Their formulators just don't know what they're doing sometimes. And while I'm at it, what is holding the SLS noodles together? The only other ingredients are aqueous plant extracts and essential oils.
> 
> I just went and read the ingredient lists for a bunch of Lush's shampoo bars on their website, and most use SLS as the only surfactant, which is stupid. SLS on its own is notoriously irritating to the skin, which is why most formulators add some CAPB to make it a lot milder. I wouldn't be surprised if Lush bars had CAPB in them and they didn't disclose it in the list of ingredients due to it being another "unpronounceable chemical" or something. I suspect they do that a lot, because reading ingredient lists for some of their other products they always seem to be missing things that should be in that type of product. Emulsifiers, preservatives, fatty alcohols, and anything else that normally has a scary chemical name. They do have a sort of ingredient encyclopedia on the website that explains some of those ingredients (they call them "safe synthetics") but not the ones with longer names or bad reputations. Undeserved bad reputations, in my opinion, but there is a lot of misunderstanding out there being passed along as fact by influential mommy bloggers.
> 
> *takes a deep breath* Ok, I need to start just ignoring mentions of Lush around here.


Don't worry, I am of the same opinion now!  I used to order 3 or 4 bars once a year, and use them as my only shower product, except for shaving. It worked well when I was a single gal traveling the globe and showering in random marina bathrooms, but I have seen the light since joining this forum! I'm on my last bar anyway, so I'm getting increasingly desperate for an alternative. This is great info though for anyone else stumbling across this thread.


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## amd (May 5, 2021)

Quanta said:


> but I have cetyl and stearyl alcohol so I'm going to mix them 50/50 and use that.


I would probably go more 70/30. If I remember right when I was trying to figure out what to replace the cetearyl with, cetearyl is 70/30 cetyl/stearyl. I didn't have stearyl, so I used stearic acid which I know isn't the same, but it did provide the function of acting as a hardener. I kept the cetyl at 70% of the cetyl/stearic blend so that my formulation might be fairly close to what it should be if I had used cetearyl.



Quanta said:


> If you're going to try substituting some or all of the SLSa in your shampoo with Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, make sure you read this first, if you haven't already:


My plan was to replace all of the SLSa. In the original More Mango bar, she [Humblebee and Me] used C14-16, and I replaced it with SLSa. I'm curious to see how the performance, pH etc changes when following her recipe as she made it. I'm also wondering if some of the mixing issue I have is because of the swap that I made.


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## Quanta (May 5, 2021)

amd said:


> I would probably go more 70/30. If I remember right when I was trying to figure out what to replace the cetearyl with, cetearyl is 70/30 cetyl/stearyl. I didn't have stearyl, so I used stearic acid which I know isn't the same, but it did provide the function of acting as a hardener. I kept the cetyl at 70% of the cetyl/stearic blend so that my formulation might be fairly close to what it should be if I had used cetearyl.


I can't find 70/30 anywhere, I can only find 30/70 from my usual suppliers (MakeYourOwn.Buzz and LotionCrafter) and 50/50 on Amazon. I figured if I started out at 50/50, I would have a lot of wiggle room to adjust both ways. Plus, it's a lot hotter here than where you live, and if you're having problems with it melting it'll be worse here. I have AC but I try not to run it much because I can't afford to so it gets pretty warm in my house. So since 50/50 will be a harder blend and 30/70 even harder than that, I think I will learn from your experiment and skip straight to the one with the higher melting point. I'll use the oils in the recipe, but your substitutions have similar melting points to what they're substituting for so I think in that regard it'll be similar.



> My plan was to replace all of the SLSa. In the original More Mango bar, she [Humblebee and Me] used C14-16, and I replaced it with SLSa. I'm curious to see how the performance, pH etc changes when following her recipe as she made it. I'm also wondering if some of the mixing issue I have is because of the swap that I made.


What I'm wondering is how many of her suggested substitutions has Marie actually tried? I'm curious to know how this turns out.


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## Quanta (May 23, 2021)

Ok. I made the shampoo and conditioner exactly as the original recipe is written (this is the Dutch lady's four ingredient recipe). I actually made it more than a week ago but am only just now reporting here.

I am not impressed with the shampoo with cocoa butter. It did produce lather, but not as much as my usual recipe. My mother didn't like it at all. It just feels weird. I used it as body wash as well, which felt ok but I think using it with a washcloth or poof would work better. 

As for the conditioner, I think it should have had more BTMS in it because it didn't feel very conditioning. I did end up using a blend of 50/50 cetyl/stearyl alcohol and it didn't melt on me.  My hair was not badly static-y afterwards but during use it had a kind of not-conditioner feel to it. I think I'm going to stick to my usual recipe.

@amd Did you get around to trying the C14-16 yet?


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## amd (May 24, 2021)

Quanta said:


> @amd Did you get around to trying the C14-16 yet?


I have not been able to source it, the few trusted suppliers I could find it at have it out of stock. Surfactants seem to be getting hard to find, I had to take a gamble on sourcing SCI powder from a source I haven't used before so that I would have enough to get me through my next few markets for stocking sugar scrubs and still leave enough to play with shampoo bars. 

I played a bit with shampoo bars again this weekend. I made two versions of the HB&M More Mango (still subbing with SLSa). The first version I used horsetail butter and that went together beautifully. I think there may be a difference between using butters and liquid oils in the recipe because I tried the second one with walnut oil and I needed to add quite a bit more water again to get it to come together. The one with horsetail butter I left unscented as I wanted a customer who orders shampoo bars without fragrance to try the new recipe. The "old" recipe I was using had BTMS in it and stunk of fish quite a bit, so it might be more pleasant for her to use. The second one was for my hubby and the boys - they're going through the first bar I made a bit fast because both of the boys are using it head to toe. I also made a HB&M's Green French Clay bar French Green Clay Sulphate-Free Shampoo Bar - Humblebee & Me but had to sub Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside with CAPB, so I need to test the pH yet. It took a bit more water to get that to come together too. I wasn't sure about adding the carageenan as I've tried it before in a bar and it seemed to make it sticky for weeks. After an hour these weren't sticky so it might have been something else in the other bar that caused the stickiness. The last bar I made this weekend was HB&M's Rhassoul Clay bar Chocolate Rhassoul Shampoo Bars - Humblebee & Me which I've made before and quite like. I subbed 2% of the clay with activated charcoal, and melted the SCS quite a bit with the cocoa butter and stearic acid so that it was a more smooth moldable dough with only a few SCS noodles intact. 

I haven't played more with the conditioner bar, I like this version well enough although on "no wash days" my hair doesn't seem as manageable. The weather here has also done a sudden turn to high humidity so that could be a factor too. I've got frizzy waves today.


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## AliOop (May 24, 2021)

@amd my C14-16 (under the name BioTerge AS90) came from Voyageur. My order was back in November; they don't have it in stock right now. Not seeing it at MYOB, either (and they are more than 2x the price of Voyageur).

I didn't realize that the C14-16 is more suitable for oily hair, and not the surfactant of choice for my very dry hair. So I have a 1/2lb bag that I have not opened. Happy to send it to you for cost + shipping if you want to PM me your deets.


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## amd (May 24, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Happy to send it to you for cost + shipping if you want to PM me your deets.


I'm taking you up on that! Thank you for the information re: oily hair. This may make it even more suitable for my husband.


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## AliOop (May 24, 2021)

amd said:


> I'm taking you up on that! Thank you for the information re: oily hair. This may make it even more suitable for my husband.


Yes, I can't remember where I read that; it was probably either HB&Me or the Swiftey blog. I was so bummed since I had just placed the order. Glad you can use it!


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## amd (May 28, 2021)

I have C14-16 from @AliOop !!! I'm going to have shampoo for the next two years by the time the weekend is over... Also, I realized I was updating my More Mango experiments on the wrong thread... oops! Sorry to hijack this thread. I'm moving over to the original thread here Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials


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