# pH in natural Shampoo



## Sahil Doshi (Mar 30, 2018)

Hi!

I have a question. I am trying to use a basic saponification method to create my own shampoo. My basic blend is 60% coconut oil, 21% olive oil, 6% cocoa butter and 10% castor oil along with Potassium hydroxide and water. The pH of this liquid soap is around 9-10. Which is really high for a shampoo.

As per a lot of online reading, the pH of any shampoo needs to be slightly acidic. So, to try to do that, I took 2 test batches out of this and tried to reduce the pH using borax in 1. It took the pH down a bit but did not push it to the acidic side which is ideally where the shampoo needs to be in. I also tried using citric acid but it causes the solution to go white without affecting the pH much and I lose all the soapiness. It becomes like water almost. The consistency is also too thin.

What can be done about the pH without screwing with the soapiness. The feel of the shampoo is really good because I have experimented with the blend and I don't want to forgo that


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## BattleGnome (Mar 30, 2018)

By definition, soap needs a higher pH to be soap. There isn’t much you can do about that.

Some ways to work around the pH issues are to use a vinegar rinse after you wash to drop the pH of your hair and seal the shaft. Another way would be to use synthetic detergents (syndets) instead.

I don’t make shampoo, so I can’t give you much more than that. From what I’ve read on the forum those two suggestions are where the next part of your research should lead


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## shunt2011 (Mar 30, 2018)

Unfortunately you will not be able to get the PH down.  Soap will always have a PH of 8.5-10. That’s just the nature of soap. I tried using soap as a shampoo but it ruined my hair. Now, there are some that can use it but many cannot.  Therefore I don’t make or sell shampoo. I stick with syndets based shampoo.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 30, 2018)

"...tried to reduce the pH using borax in 1. It took the pH down a bit but did not push it to the acidic side which is ideally where the shampoo needs to be in. I also tried using citric acid but it causes the solution to go white without affecting the pH much and I lose all the soapiness...."

First thing -- Borax has an alkaline pH. An alkaline material cannot drive the pH of a mixture into the acid range. It's like trying to force a red paint  to become blue by adding more red. It simply and utterly doesn't work.

Citric acid, being an acid, can drive the pH of an alkaline material into the acid range if a sufficient amount of acid is added. The only problem with that idea is lye-based soap, in order to remain soap, MUST remain alkaline as Shari and BattleGnome have explained. By acidifying lye-based soap with citric acid, the soap responded by breaking down into fatty acids. That's why the mixture turned white and doesn't lather. 

If you insist on a product with a neutral to acidic pH, you need to look at synthetic detergents, not soap.


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## dixiedragon (Mar 30, 2018)

I also strongly recommend you don't use soap on your hair, especially if you have long hair! If you keep your hair short, I guess the damage would be trimmed off before it became noticeable.


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## Sahil Doshi (Apr 23, 2018)

Thanks for the responses everyone!


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## [email protected] (Apr 23, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> "...tried to reduce the pH using borax in 1. It took the pH down a bit but did not push it to the acidic side which is ideally where the shampoo needs to be in. I also tried using citric acid but it causes the solution to go white without affecting the pH much and I lose all the soapiness...."
> 
> First thing -- Borax has an alkaline pH. An alkaline material cannot drive the pH of a mixture into the acid range. It's like trying to force a red paint  to become blue by adding more red. It simply and utterly doesn't work.


is it possible that the OP was trying to use Borax as a buffer


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## DeeAnna (Apr 24, 2018)

Yes, I agree that borax can function as a buffer, but it's an alkaline buffer. The OP said the goal was to make the soap acidic. Borax can't do that. This is what I was responding to --

_"...As per a lot of online reading, the pH of any shampoo needs to be slightly acidic. So, to try to do that, I took 2 test batches out of this and tried to reduce the pH using borax in 1. It took the pH down a bit but did not push it to the acidic side which is ideally where the shampoo needs to be in...." [emphasis mine]_


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## Kelley (Apr 25, 2018)

Hey, I agree with the others. It's impossible to lower the ph. If it's not alkaline then it's not soap. Soap is horrible for your hair. Syndet shampoo is the only good way to make shampoo.  Step away from the thought that soap is natural and syndets are bad. They are both natural materials altered using a chemical process. I make shampoo with synthetic surfactants and my family and friends won't use anything else. It's not the same as store bought because all the lovely ingredients like Panthenol and proteins aren't just label appeal. I use them in higher quantities so you can feel the difference . Try it. It's not as creative visually as soap for sure but the products you can make are fantastic.


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## cmzaha (Apr 25, 2018)

^^^Sadly some do not learn until their hair is damaged. I love my syndet shampoo bars. Soap is also very stripping to hair color, so if one has expensive color procedures, which are not natural,  you will be fading the color each time you use soap as shampoo.


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## Spin (Apr 25, 2018)

Kelley said:


> Hey, I agree with the others. It's impossible to lower the ph. If it's not alkaline then it's not soap. Soap is horrible for your hair. Syndet shampoo is the only good way to make shampoo.  Step away from the thought that soap is natural and syndets are bad. They are both natural materials altered using a chemical process. I make shampoo with synthetic surfactants and my family and friends won't use anything else. It's not the same as store bought because all the lovely ingredients like Panthenol and proteins aren't just label appeal. I use them in higher quantities so you can feel the difference . Try it. It's not as creative visually as soap for sure but the products you can make are fantastic.


Hi Kelly

Any recommendation to where I can read and learn to make a syndet shampoo bar? I'd love to move on to making shampoo bars for the family.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 26, 2018)

With all due respect to my SMF colleagues, I make natural liquid shampoo, and have been doing so for longer than I can remember. Please read:

FLAXSEED SHAMPOO
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/zanys-flaxseed-shampoo.69272/

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/what-is-the-difference-between-liquid-soap-and-shampoo.62836/page-2#post-636758

Your recipe looks fine to me. When I first made it, like you, I thought I had to lower the pH to 7 to be safe. Unfortunately, taking the pH down to that level results in separation. Once I accepted that fact, I have consistently made shampoos with whatever pH they end up at. This is a hot topic here so if you want to learn more, it will have to be done off list. Please feel free to Email me at: [email protected]


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## Rune (Jun 8, 2018)

You can experiment with hair and high PH to see what happens. For example:

1) Fill a small casserole with a bit of water with a tablespoon of baking soda added, heat until boiling hot. Take some wool or wool yarn, put it in the bowl and let it simmer for a few minutes, then set aside to cool in the water. Rinse the wool and hang it to dry.

2) Next, do exactly the same, just replace the baking soda with vinegar instead. Add another piece of wool, boil, cool, rinse and hang to dry.

The next day, inspect both the wool samples. How do they feel?

I will not be surprised if the wool with the baking soda in the water feels totally horrible, stiff and damaged.

I have actually boiled wool with baking soda added to the water, as an experiment when I was trying to dye wool naturally using herbs. I did not like the color, so I added a little bit of baking soda to try to get a color change, since I had read that the color could change depending on the PH. It did change color, to the worse. But the wool yarn was destroyed.

So, those who use high PH to change color of natural dyed yarn, they do it as an afterbath, for as short time as possible. Vinegar can be used both as an afterbath and in the dye bath. I have tried that too. Vinegar does not destroy wool at all. But vinegar can not repair wool destroyed by high PH. I have tried that in an attempt to repair my destroyed high PH wool yarn. Did not work.

Wool and human hair can go for the same. So if something destroys wool, it will also destroy hair. You are not boiling your hair, no. Temperature just speeds up the process. Your hair will be damaged over time using high PH products.

But, it depends on your hair if it is important or not. For my hair, it does not really matter. I have short, thin, nordic hair, and also oily hair. I don't mind my hair getting destroyed like if I had bleached it. It grows out again, so doesn't matter. My hair is better damaged than healthy. So I should use homemade soap as shampoo, but I don't. But for long, womens hair, well, I guess most will think twice before using shampoo bars made of real soap. If you do the wool test, you will see and feel what happens. And if that is okey for you, like it is for me and my hair, of course you can make a shampoo bar and use it. It certainly is more fun with homemade than store bought.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 8, 2018)

LOL I washed my hair with homemade liquid soap yesterday (pH around 8.5). After reading the above, I couldn't resist... First, I ran my fingers through my hair. Then I asked my dear hubby to run his fingers through my hair and tell me what it feels like. He did as I asked -- several times -- from the roots, up and out. His one word answer: "Silky."  That's exactly how I would describe it as well. It also looks shiny and healthy -- like those old Breck commercials -- altho my hair is not all that great to begin with.

I don't know what to say except how grateful I am for those mentors in the early days who shared their knowledge and experience and thus enabled me to be successful at making shampoo bars and liquid shampoo of many different varieties. It's been a fun ride, not to forget the $$$ it's saved us, as well as family and friends, lo these many years.


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## Rune (Jun 10, 2018)

Hmm... Maybe homemade soap works better on some hair types than others?

I also used a bar soap to wash my hair today. It actually feels allright, much better than the last soap I made, which made the hair more dry (it had more coconut, maybe that's why). But one wash is not enough to judge. I used my last soap several washes in a row, and it definately made my hair feel more destroyed, dry and with more volume (which you get from destroyed hair) and less shine.

Hair is very different from person to person. Some have a hair quality like baby hair, others have hair closer to steel wool. So I guess some hair qualities can handle harsher treatments without getting destroyed.

I actually used to wash my hair with dishwashing detergent. That is the best ever! Why did I forget that? Regular shampoo with all the silicone and what not they put in the bottles, makes my hair flat and even thinner. Dishwashing detergent, that strips it totally without damaging it, and it feels nice. It works great as body wash too. I found out when I had no money, and had to find something I already owned to use as both shampoo and body wash. So I grabbed the dishwashing detergent. Actually it is much better than shower gel, apart from the scent. I have oily skin too, so I guess it's no good for dry skin, since it is very stripping.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 11, 2018)

Hmm... interesting about the dish washing detergent. I'm sure they put a moisturizing agent in to keep hands from drying out. The "detergent" helps it to rinse clean easily without much effort and also, I'm guessing, what accounts for the stripping/dryness. 

With non-syndet homemade shampoo or shampoo bars, it's really important to rinse thoroughly with cool water and use a vinegar rinse (at least at first) to get all the soap scum out. Just like homemade laundry soap. If you don't rinse well, and add vinegar to the rinse water, the clothes come out kinda stiff and whites get dingy over time and may even get smelly due to soap scum residue.


Rune said:


> ...Hair is very different from person to person. Some have a hair quality like baby hair, others have hair closer to steel wool. So I guess some hair qualities can handle harsher treatments without getting destroyed...


I agree. Everyone's hair is different and it's up to each of us to find what works for us. As for me, I have fine, thin, 96% "Eastern European" hair (according to Ancestry.com  ). I've used just about every kind of bar soap imaginable over the years and, while some were better than others, they all did a good job -- left my hair shiny and manageable and my scalp clean and healthy.


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