# ~ Fragrance Oils vs Essential Oils? (drama)



## Lunar (Jul 14, 2020)

Long story short-ish, the lady I subcontract under in my non-soap business is an MLM distributor for essential oils. I mentioned in passing that I was excited to get a fragrance oil order come in so I can begin soap making and she immediately began telling me I shouldn’t be using chemical laced fragrance oils and that I should be using EO instead. She started saying we needed to have a talk and if I’m planning on selling I can’t be using chemicals like FO..

She has since antagonized me so much that I’d developing stress headaches and finding my anxiety heightened. She has tried to get me on the Essential oils train before with mentioning that I need oils when I say I’m a bit tired or have a headache but I brush those off but this has been relentless. She‘s even been telling her upline that I’m getting into FO, she mentions how we need to have a talk every time we pass each other and even has gone so far to ask what fragrances I’ve purchased so she can attack them.

Can someone please help me rebutt and make positive claims for Fragrance oils? I have tried telling her that a lot of essential oils burn off in the soaping process but she talked over me

Plus, I have no intentons on making all natural soaps, I love the fun candy looking soap and do not want to use essential oils. I also wouldn‘t want to buy her exoensive MLM oils even if I did use EO but she could kick me out of her building if she ever felt like it so I’m too nervous to tell her to cut the nagging

Please help me make a good case for Fragrance Oils!


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## Obsidian (Jul 14, 2020)

I don't think there is anything you could say about FOs that would get this woman on board with them.
I would simply tell her I like my chemical laced fragrances and have absolutely no interest in EOs.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 14, 2020)

I agree with Obsidian.  You're not going to get her on board.  Some of those MLM gals are psychotic.  I've had them confront me at shows in the past.  I tell them to do them and I'll do me.    Also, just because EO's are "natural" doesn't mean they are safer in many cases.   So, just tell her to back off and you'll do what you want to do.


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## Lunar (Jul 14, 2020)

Thanks! At least I know I’m not alone.

i really hope she drops it because it’s making an uncomfortable work environment. I’m also anti-MLM and she’s after distributed for 3 in the past few years, but none to this extent. She honestly thinks EO are the magic cure 

i’d also like to note... the hand soap in our washroom that everyone is required to use at the moment does contain parfum and many other chemicals on it’s ingredient list.. it’s equate brand from Walmart


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## Rsapienza (Jul 14, 2020)

I believe that at least 1 of those MLM oil companies do not allow soaps to be sold and advertised with their product (or something along those lines). I've read about it before. Maybe you could look into it further as that would be the perfect rebuttal


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## Lunar (Jul 14, 2020)

Rsapienza said:


> I believe that at least 1 of those MLM oil companies do not allow soaps to be sold and advertised with their product (or something along those lines). I've read about it before. Maybe you could look into it further as that would be the perfect rebuttal



I did not know that. I will definitely look into it now. Thanks!


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## Rsapienza (Jul 14, 2020)

Lunar said:


> I did not know that. I will definitely look into it now. Thanks!


I just looked it up. Apparently, using them as in ingredient in another product goes against their rules. That should chill her out (if it applies).


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## BattleGnome (Jul 14, 2020)

You could also talk about the allergy triggers in certain essential oils. I’m pretty sure there’s been at least one or two people on the forum with significant allergies that choose FO’s due that frivolous reason of wanting to live.

i don’t know what oils you ordered or from where but there are some FO brands that incorporate EO’s. I think BB’s lavender 60/40 is one and possibly some of their citrus stuff but it’s not something I look for so I don’t have a list.

lastly, cost. MLMs are expensive. You can always pull up bulk pricing for fragrances (both EO and FO) and ask if she can do better. If she’s that die hard maybe you can negotiate a raise (but then you may have to buy her stuff).


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## MGM (Jul 14, 2020)

I agree that you need to not engage, esp if your job is one the line. You are NOT going to change her mind because 

she's brain-washed on the topic and 
the MLM is her $$$. 
If she were just a wheatgrass smoothie fanatic but didn't sell wheatgrass smoothies, she wouldn't care as much what you put in your smoothie. But because you are a potential CLIENT (and in MLMs, you are so much more than a client. You have the potential to recruit new clients for her...), she is super invested.

If you feel you must say something, I'd just say you can't afford to use EOs and leave it at that.

And of course, don't be bringing any soaps around the office.....


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## AliOop (Jul 14, 2020)

I was just going to make the same remark that @Rsapienza made. My understanding is that ALL of the MLMs have that same rule - you can’t name their product as an ingredient in your product.

To add to that, the amount of MLM-based EO that you would need would make most bars cost at least $6 or more -and that is COST, mind you, not the price at which you could make any profit. A lot of people can’t get $6 per bar, but even if you got $10 per bar, that wouldn’t compensate you fairly for your time and investment.

So now you can agree with her that EOs would be nice in theory, but you cannot use them due to prohibitive cost AND bc the MLMs forbid it. And point out that this must be the reason that there is the “chemical-based” soap in the restroom.

If she still goes on, offer to make her some EO-scented liquid soap for the bathroom, using her EOs, and quote her the retail price for that. Keep offering every time she brings up the subject.


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## The Bubble Fairy (Jul 14, 2020)

She clearly doesn't know science. Everything is chemical-based, including water (H2O) and her precious EOs, which are made from chemicals.


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## Arimara (Jul 14, 2020)

The Bubble Fairy said:


> She clearly doesn't know science. Everything is chemical-based, including water (H2O) and her precious EOs, which are made from chemicals.


THIS!!! It's really appalling how many people don't consider that. It's basic middle/highschool chemistry that everything is a chemical.


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## MGM (Jul 15, 2020)

Arimara said:


> THIS!!! It's really appalling how many people don't consider that. It's basic middle/highschool chemistry that everything is a chemical.


Naw, that can be dismissed by who does the "making", labs or "Nature". Nature doesn't make anything bad or dangerous!


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## artemis (Jul 15, 2020)

For a lot of people, "chemical" has come to mean "man-made" or "artificial".  Even some of my intelligent, college-educated friends use the word this way. If I correct them, they say, "oh, you know what I mean!"

The thing that gets me is the idea of EOs being less processed or "man-made" than anything else. As if the EO just sort of dripped naturally out of the plant and into a container.


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## TheGecko (Jul 15, 2020)

Lunar said:


> Can someone please help me rebutt and make positive claims for Fragrance oils?



Could give you quite a few, but to what end? You simply cannot have an intelligent discussion with folks like that. You could hand them a paper done by the best scientific minds in the worlds and they would still discredit it. 

What I would do is to tell her to knock it off or you will literally take your business elsewhere AFTER you tell her boss why you are leaving.


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## IrishLass (Jul 15, 2020)

Here's a good discussion on the pros vs cons of using FO's or EO's in soap:

*





						F.O vs E.O
					

Long time lurker here but I have a few questions so I finally signed up.  Anyways  what are the pros\cons of E.O and F.O in soap making and all other BB products.    And thanks for having me in this wonderful community  (actually I sneaked in)   :lol:



					www.soapmakingforum.com
				



*
Essential oils are pretty much unregulated medicines (at least here in the US). If one is going to use them in soap, one really needs to be educated at least enough to know safe usage rates for skin, because some are not safe to be used on the skin at any strength, while others _are_ safe on the skin, but only if diluted at a certain percentage, etc., etc...... FO's on the other hand, are regulated. The ones we buy for soapmaking from any reputable soap supply vendor (at least in the US) have been tested for skin-safety and they come with safe usage rates. 

Things aren't as cut-and-dried with EOs. The thing that really bothers me about these MLMers that sell push EOs is that they know nothing about them except what they are told by their upline, who more than likely also doesn't know much except for the hype told to them by _their_ upline, and so it goes. The reason I know that they know nothing about EOs is because my older sister who I love dearly, bless her heart, got sucked in to the EO MLM madness and became a rep for the one that starts with a 'D'. She became a rep without knowing _anything_ about EOs. She believed everything her friend/rep told her without checking it out on her own, got all excited and signed right up. And they let her! That's downright scary if you ask me. One of the main reasons why I invested a good chunk of my money in buying the giant tome, "Essential Oil Safety" by Tisserand/Young was so I could steer her from potential danger when needed. She knows how I feel about it (we've had words) and there now exists something of a truce between us to where she no longer discusses EOs when I'm present. lol


IrishLass


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## HeatherS (Jul 15, 2020)

I love both EO and FOs, but I am extra sensitive to fragrance oils, and I have found only a few that don't give me an instant headache and nausea, something the essential oils do not.  So I stick to essential oils for the most part.  I would love to find a delicious plumeria as well as a real-smelling orange blossom scent though and would be willing to suffer the headache for the time it took to make a batch or 2 for myself.

I used to purchase EOs from a MLM company, but have found sources that are much cheaper and equal in quality.  There are a couple blends I still buy from the MLM because I haven't been able to duplicate them yet.  

Whether or not one makes their soap with essential oils, fragrance oils, or dew gathered under a full moon in springtime is their own business, and no one, I repeat no one should be trying to impose their beliefs on another.  If you don't like it, don't buy from them, simple and easy peasy.  

I am so sorry you are having to go through this.  Especially as you are a sub-contractor and she has some control over you.  Any chance of getting out from under her thumb?


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## DKing (Jul 15, 2020)

HeatherS said:


> I love both EO and FOs, but I am extra sensitive to fragrance oils, and I have found only a few that don't give me an instant headache and nausea, something the essential oils do not.  So I stick to essential oils for the most part.  I would love to find a delicious plumeria as well as a real-smelling orange blossom scent though and would be willing to suffer the headache for the time it took to make a batch or 2 for myself.
> 
> I used to purchase EOs from a MLM company, but have found sources that are much cheaper and equal in quality.  There are a couple blends I still buy from the MLM because I haven't been able to duplicate them yet.
> 
> ...


I am in the same boat, that i react to some fragrance oils, but seem to have no problems so far with essential oils, but that just might be that I have not had a problem so far with the essential oils I have used.  I do find that people are pretty darn biased when it comes to a product that they are personally making money from so I tend not to listen to these people.  In my personal experience, I have not found a fragrance oil that I have benefited from in a therapeutic perspective but are incredible scents in soap, but I do have a few essential oils that have helped in some therapeutic ways, and some just smell good.  I do have some fragrance oils that are wonderful in soaps, and some essential oils that have faded quickly, but each essential oil or fragrance oil is different.  There are pros and cons to each in different ways.  If anyone is pushing one or another in any way that benefits them financially, I tend to not listen too intently.  Go with the ones that you find work best for you.  For my purposes, I have ones from each group that I will, and will not, work with for soap making.


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## JillGat (Jul 16, 2020)

This whole "natural = safe and effective/synthetic = bad for you" is wrong-headed and ignorant.  Natural products can vary in strength and origin, while lab-produced products are dose-controlled and tested.  Because essential oils are very concentrated, they can be even dangerous if used in certain ways.  Some cause sun-sensitivity, some are risky for pregnant women, some are not for topical use at all.  I love essential oils, but you are right that many of them fade in cold processed soap.  She has a right to prefer essential oils, but her health claims are probably mostly bogus.  This being said, you will NEVER convince her of any of this.  Ever.  Folks with this mind-set are very stubborn about it.  Add to that her MLM involvement (in some cases, almost a cult mentality) and you're not gonna win.  Smile and say that you will agree to disagree and change the subject if she ever brings any of this up again.



MGM said:


> Naw, that can be dismissed by who does the "making", labs or "Nature". Nature doesn't make anything bad or dangerous!



Except nature makes arsenic, hemlock, rattlesnake venom, black widow spiders, nightshade, poison ivy, etc. etc. etc.  Many plants develop toxins (some in the form of even scents that we like) for the purposes of natural pest control.  Some of them can have ill-effects for humans, too.


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## AliOop (Jul 16, 2020)

JillGat said:


> Except nature makes arsenic, hemlock, rattlesnake venom, black widow spiders, nightshade, poison ivy, etc. etc. etc.  Many plants develop toxins (some in the form of even scents that we like) for the purposes of natural pest control.  Some of them can have ill-effects for humans, too.


You do know that MGM was being sarcastic, yes?


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## MGM (Jul 16, 2020)

AliOop said:


> You do know that MGM was being sarcastic, yes?


 If anyone is in doubt of my penchant for sarcasm, have a look at this old thread!


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## JillGat (Jul 17, 2020)

AliOop said:


> You do know that MGM was being sarcastic, yes?



Whew, that's good to know!  One can't always assume about these things...


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## AliOop (Jul 17, 2020)

MGM said:


> If anyone is in doubt of my penchant for sarcasm, have a look at this old thread!


Oh my, that thread was worth reading. Hilarious. 

He definitely was  from Big Goat. Or something. There was definitely some kind of agenda there, although it could have been something as simple as, "Wouldn't it be fun to rile up a bunch of folks today?!"


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## Elizevt (Jul 17, 2020)

Another thing is, The EO's form MLMs have something like a 600% markup on the price (to make sure the uplines get a %of the profit).  Here in South Africa, I have found a local company that produces Essential oils and I can buy wholesale from them for a fraction of the price, I also like them because they support local farmers, by sourcing their raw materials eg, lavender, marula, Cape chamomile, lemon/orange peels etc from local farmers.  I'm sure you can find a brand in your country that sells EO's cheaper than MLM's. 

But besides that, Essential oil sensitivities is a real thing.  I love frankincense oil, it works well to relieve muscle and joint pain. I used to use it a lot.  But last year I suddenly developed a sensitivity to it. I start puking my guts out if I put it on my skin (Diluted with a carrier oil).   
My sister has a sensitivity to Rosemary EO.  Same reaction. starts throwing up. 
Not everyone can use EO's

Although having battled with skin cancer before, I am a bit hesitant to use artificial fragrances and colourants in my soaps.  I still use lavender, chamomile, ylang-ylang etc. EOs in my soap recipes. 
But it is so tempting to try the synthetic stuff because they look and smell so pretty.  I'll probably buy a few FO's micas and oxides and try them out. 

But If I ever do sell my soaps to the public one day, I would still like to offer a "natural soap option" free of synthetic fragrances and colourants to cater to the more purist clients.  

But the fact is, It is your soaps. You are free to Soap your soaps, your way.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 17, 2020)

MGM said:


> If anyone is in doubt of my penchant for sarcasm, have a look at this old thread!



That dude was out of his mind.  He only stuck around for about a month and we never heard from the person that tried it for long term outcomes.


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## AliOop (Jul 17, 2020)

shunt2011 said:


> That dude was out of his mind.  He only stuck around for about a month and we never heard from the person that tried it for long term outcomes.


Yes, or he had some hidden agenda -probably to sell lots of goat ghee, or get hits on his videos. .

I didn’t watch the links he shared, since once someone like that starts sharing links, for me, that confirms the game-playing.


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## AliOop (Jul 17, 2020)

JillGat said:


> Whew, that's good to know!  One can't always assume about these things...


Oh, with MGM, it is quite safe to assume that. . I actually take it for granted and look forward to it.


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## Arimara (Jul 17, 2020)

MGM said:


> If anyone is in doubt of my penchant for sarcasm, have a look at this old thread!


you couln't let sleeping dogs lay... i was avoid posting in there because i had nothing nice to say. on a side note, i appreciated jill's comment all the same. i can think of loads of ways to make a person sick with common natural ingredients.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 17, 2020)

Over the years of hanging around here, I've learned to be wary of newcomers making detailed or unusual demands for information in their very first post.

Usually they say very little to nothing about themselves and their motive for asking. They often get real impatient when other members get curious about why they want the info, and even a little snippy when people suggest alternative ways of thinking.

There's a thread like this that's active at the moment. The OP has already made a reasonably polite "what you said is not an answer to my question, so buzz off" comment to one respondent. That's telling me they have little interest in any responses that don't specifically answer their query.

It's as if they think the people on SMF are the Google of Soapmaking, and we should come up with 2,187,286 hits answering their question in 0.1635 milliseconds. And with no please-n-thank-you or nice-to-get-to-know-ya required.

It usually doesn't go well.

***

To the OP, since this discussion has (entertainingly for me at least!) gone far astray --

Here are my thoughts -- I hope things go well for you as you deal with this person who's fixated on your using only EOs, and (I'm guesing) only the EOs she sells.

I don't know that I'd debate the pros and cons of EOs vs FOs with her, since it sounds like she believes there is Only One True Way. People like that aren't willing to see both sides of an issue. She seems to be only interested in getting you to comply with her expectations, not compromising on a "can we agree to disagree" outcome.

What really concerns me is your employment could be at risk, if she decides to abuse her position over you. If I were in your shoes, I might say something on the order of "Oh, the idea of using FOs was just a passing fancy" to see if I could de-escalate her intensity. Dunno.


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## AliOop (Jul 17, 2020)

Great tactic, @DeeAnna! Along those lines:

I’ve decided not to make (sell) soap.
or
I’m going with unscented soaps per customer requests.


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## syl_go (Jul 18, 2020)

you could try and simulate a big allergic reaction or simulate a desire to vomit, when you smell certain oil. For example, lavender can cause hormone disorder if used in excess. for my self, i think using EO is too much expensive. it's soap not like a cream that you apply and that the skin absorbs it's like paying dearly and sending it directly down the drain.


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## AliOop (Jul 18, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Oh, with MGM, it is quite safe to assume that. . I actually take it for granted and look forward to it.


@MGM, you do know that this was my (sarcastic) version of a compliment, right? Just making sure! I really do enjoy your humor, probably because you say some things that I am already thinking.


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## Billthesoapguy (Jul 18, 2020)

I would approach it a little differently. When she says “ we need to talk”, you should say, “yes, let’s set up a time to discuss this”. And then, set up 30 minutes to have the conversation with her about FO vs EO.

once you sit down with her to discuss EO vs FO, quickly shift the conversation from that topic to the topic “ you really wanted to talk to her about”......and then start asking her about  either her religious beliefs or her political beliefs. 

my guess is that, after 5-7 minutes of you taking the opposite opinion of whatever her belief system is, she will cut the conversation short, and will not want to discuss FO with you any longer .


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## Funmi (Jul 31, 2020)

Lunar said:


> Long story short-ish, the lady I subcontract under in my non-soap business is an MLM distributor for essential oils. I mentioned in passing that I was excited to get a fragrance oil order come in so I can begin soap making and she immediately began telling me I shouldn’t be using chemical laced fragrance oils and that I should be using EO instead. She started saying we needed to have a talk and if I’m planning on selling I can’t be using chemicals like FO..
> 
> She has since antagonized me so much that I’d developing stress headaches and finding my anxiety heightened. She has tried to get me on the Essential oils train before with mentioning that I need oils when I say I’m a bit tired or have a headache but I brush those off but this has been relentless. She‘s even been telling her upline that I’m getting into FO, she mentions how we need to have a talk every time we pass each other and even has gone so far to ask what fragrances I’ve purchased so she can attack them.
> 
> ...


Essential oils are known irritants. It's just as bad as fragrance oils. The carbon footprint of essential oils is large.

1000 roses for a small yield of EO, a lot of plants are killed in the making of EOs

Besides, the properties/smells of essential oils do not last in soap.


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