# Soaping 101 liquid soapmaking video?



## jenfrat

Hello!  I have a bunch of people asking me to make liquid soap, so I'd like to give it a try.  I was watching soaping 101's youtube video and noticed that she used glycerin instead of water to make it.  I understand that it speeds up the process considerably, but does it also contribute to the thickness?  Any other online resources or video's you recommend?  I just got Catherine Failor's book, so I'll be giving that a read as well.

Thanks!


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## Susie

Soaping 101's recipe is good soap, but not thick.  You will want to thicken it after you make it.  This was my first liquid soap also.

Plan to use 9 oz liquid: 4.5 oz water to dissolve KOH, then 4.5 oz glycerin.  This allows you to skip the whole heat the glycerin stage.  You probably will want to run her recipe through SoapCalc with 90% KOH to get correct lye amount and skip the borax step, IIRC.

Catherine Failor is certainly an expert, but we have lye calculators now that allow us to account for 90% purity on the KOH.  This keeps us from having to make lye heavy soap, then neutralize.  I would strongly recommend you take her recipes and run them through a good lye calculator.  Remember to keep your superfat down to 3% or less for liquid soap if you are concerned about clear soap.

There is also a good liquid soap group on Yahoo. Lots of good recipes on there.  I learned more from them than all other sources of info combined.


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## IrishLass

I've been using the glycerin method to make my liquid soap for 2 years now and I really love it. I have 2 different formulas that I use and I dilute them in such a way that they both come out nice and thick (as thick as honey). The cool thing with the glycerin method (from what I've been told from those that use Failor's method) is that you have better control over the thickness of your finished soap with the glycerin method. I've never used Failor's method, but I can vouch that it's not hard at all to get a thick liquid soap with the glycerin method. Over at the Dish forum they have a _looooooong_ glycerin liquid soap thread (it's a huge thread with a bazillion pages....well, maybe not a gazillion, but close enough! lol), and that's where I learned how to make it. 

I make mine differently than Susie. I dissolve my lye in glycerin. Basically, I mix the KOH and glycerin when they are both at room temp, bring them to a boil together, and simmer and stir until all the lye is dissolved and all is clear. It takes less than 10 minutes for me. Some people heat the glycerin before adding the KOH, but that can cause sputtering and hissing, so that's why I do it the way I do (which goes very smoothly for me). Then I dump the lye/glycerin solution into my pre-melted oils and whisk the mixture (off heat) until I see tiny little bubbles flying/floating up in the air around my head (about 10 to 12 minutes max). Then I cover (still off heat) and leave it alone to let it do it's thing while I busy myself with other things. Usually, in about 6 hours, it's paste. Then I dilute with only enough water as needed to get it to the thickness I like. That's just a bare-bones outline of my procedure, but I can be more detailed if you wish.


IrishLass


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## lsg

The glycerin method is the only one I will use from now on.  It is so fast and easy.  You can thin your soap as much as you like.  Here is the recipe I use.

 3.6 oz Castor Oil
 11.4 oz Coconut Oil
 .98 oz Palm Oil

 11 oz. Glycerin
 3.5 oz KOH
 Use glycerin instead of water.  Melt the oils in a crock pot.  Heat glycerin on direct heat as in the video.  Use a medium pot to keep the glycerin and lye from boiling over.  Add the lye to the hot  glycerin.  Stir constantly while continuing to heat on low heat.  Stir until all the lye is dissolved.  Pour lye mixture into melted oils while stick blending.  In the video she shows the paste testing neutral after one hour.  It may take longer than that.  If paste doesn't test neutral after a couple of hours.  Turn off the crockpot and let set, covered until the paste tests neutral.   I used about 19 ounces of distilled water to dilute the paste I added .3% Liquid Germall Plus to the cooled and diluted soap.  Just scent the soap you put in a container for use, that way, you can try out different scents.  This soap turned out fairly clear.


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## Susie

IrishLass said:


> I've been using the glycerin method to make my liquid soap for 2 years now and I really love it. I have 2 different formulas that I use and I dilute them in such a way that they both come out nice and thick (as thick as honey). The cool thing with the glycerin method (from what I've been told from those that use Failor's method) is that you have better control over the thickness of your finished soap with the glycerin method. I've never used Failor's method, but I can vouch that it's not hard at all to get a thick liquid soap with the glycerin method. Over at the Dish forum they have a _looooooong_ glycerin liquid soap thread (it's a huge thread with a bazillion pages....well, maybe not a gazillion, but close enough! lol), and that's where I learned how to make it.
> 
> I make mine differently than Susie. I dissolve my lye in glycerin. Basically, I mix the KOH and glycerin when they are both at room temp, bring them to a boil together, and simmer and stir until all the lye is dissolved and all is clear. It takes less than 10 minutes for me. Some people heat the glycerin before adding the KOH, but that can cause sputtering and hissing, so that's why I do it the way I do (which goes very smoothly for me). Then I dump the lye/glycerin solution into my pre-melted oils and whisk the mixture (off heat) until I see tiny little bubbles flying/floating up in the air around my head (about 10 to 12 minutes max). Then I cover (still off heat) and leave it alone to let it do it's thing while I busy myself with other things. Usually, in about 6 hours, it's paste. Then I dilute with only enough water as needed to get it to the thickness I like. That's just a bare-bones outline of my procedure, but I can be more detailed if you wish.
> IrishLass



Please give us more details! :-D


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## DeeAnna

I second Susie's request -- I would be very interested in more info. Please, Irish Lass? 

DeeAnna <- LS newbie


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## Susie

Thick liquid soap without use of thickeners would be an awesome thing for me!


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## IrishLass

At the request of Susie and DeeAnna, here is more detailed info on how I make my glycerin liquid soap. I hope you're seated comfortably! lol

First, the formula. I have 2 favorite glycerin liquid soap formulas (GLS for short) that I regularly make, and the one I will be sharing is actually the very first liquid soap formula I ever tried making in my soaping life- 3bees~1flower's (Carrie Peterson's) Olive Oil GLS formula that she posted over on the Dish forum and that she also shares on her GLS tute on the YouTube channel: 

It's very easy to make and it results in the most gorgeous, clear-as-a-bell liquid soap with wonderful, bubbly lather. And by using a dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 (or 75%) water, it dilutes out to a sumptuous consistancy that's beautifully thick and honey-like, but not too thick to clog my pump bottle.

Anyway, here is 3bees~1flower's (Carrie's) formula that she posted on the Dish and also on her YouTube video in the link above:

-65% Olive Oil
-25% Coconut Oil
-10% Castor Oil
-Superfatted @ 3% up front using SummerbeeMeadow's Advanced Liquid Soap Calculator: https://sbmcrafters.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-liquid-or-cream-soaps

As I mentioned previously, I dilute it at a rate of 1 part paste to .75 (or 75%) water [multiply your paste weight by .75 or 75% to get the water amount].

This next ingredient is optional, but to my dilution water I also like to add 3% sodium lactate (in liquid form) as per the weight of my paste. The SL is my little miracle worker that helps the paste soften/break up easier and more quickly [paste weight X 3%]. In spite of it being a liquid, I don't figure the sodium lactate into my 75% water calculation- I just calculate it as an additive apart from the water amount. In case you're wondering, I've found that with or without the sodium lactate, the finished soap still comes out to a nice, thick consistency, but without it, the dilution definitely doesn't proceed as quickly/easlily.

My procedure in order:

1) I melt my oils in my designated soaping pot and set aside.

2) In a separate, stainless pot that's roomy enough to prevent any accidental boil-over, I add my room-temperature glycerin and KOH together. Yep- that's right- both are at room temp when first combined. I got that important tip from tarafotty over at the Dish. There's no need to heat the glycerin first. Tarafotty said it's actually safer if you don't heat the glycerin first because adding KOH to hot glycerin causes sizzling and splashing, etc... so I just add the 2 at room temp and then heat from there, and it always goes well for me.

3) I turn on my stove's exhaust fan, then I turn my burner to med-high to bring the glycerin/Koh to a boil, stirring all the while with a stainless spoon.

~Make sure you follow the safety protocols that you normally follow when mixing lye solution- wear goggles and gloves, and don't breathe in the fumes! With one hand, I cover over my nose and mouth with a thick cotton diaper (clean, of course),folded over onto itself 3 times to provide a thick barrier against the fumes, and with the other hand I stir.~

The goal is to heat the glycerin to boiling so that the KOH will dissolve quickly and completely. If at any point you find the glycerin/KOH mixture to be boiling up too high and threatetening to spill over the pot, just remove the pot from the heat until it mellows out a bit, and then place the pot back on heat and continue boiling/dissolving/stirring in this manner, until all is dissolved/clear.

You'll notice as it heats/boils that the glycerin/KOH mixture will go through different stages: First, it starts to turn a bit white, then really white and bubbly/cloudy, and then it gradually gets clearer and clearer until all is dissolved and the solution is crystal clear. Near the end, you'll periodically need to take the pot off the heat and stir the boiling solution down to be able to gauge how far things are progressing along.

If near the end you find you have a few stubborn bits of KOH that are taking their sweet time to dissolve, just smash them up against the side of the pot with the back of your spoon to help them break up/dissolve faster, then continue boiling and stirring until all is crystal clear.

It normally takes between 8 to 10 minutes tops for all my KOH to dissolve.

*[10/13/2016 Edited to add that I now mix my KOH /glycerin differently than the above. I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of room temp. distilled water and then add the normal/full complement of (room temp.) glycerin to the lye solution. Doing it this this way makes it so much easier/less fussy to dissolve the KOH. Instead of taking 8 to 10 minutes of cooking in boiling glycerin for the KOH to dissolve, it only takes as little as a minute, and no heating is required. Of course, doing it this updated way changes my dilution ratio because I have to account for the extra water I'm adding up front, but, no worries- I've got that figured out: my new dilution ratio is 1 part paste to .62 parts distilled water, instead of 1 part paste to .75 parts distilled water. To see how things proceed when using my revised method of making the paste, see here. ]*

4) Once all is dissolved/clear it's time to pour the hot KOH/glycerin solution into the waiting melted oils in my soaping pot. I use a rubber spatula to scrape/squeegee every drop of the glycerin/KOH solution out into the oils. By the way, my soaping pot is off the heat when I do this (and from here on out as well- things are hot enough as it is!).

5) Once all the solution is in, I start whisking with a stainless whisk. Some people use a stickblender for this part and that's perfectly fine (you'll get to the paste stage much quicker with a stickblender), but please don't do it if your stickblender has a plastic wand/shaft. The glycerin/KOH/oil mixture is so hot that it may melt your plastic stickblender. If you have a stainless stickblender, though, feel free to use that. Otherwise, you can do as I do and use a stainless whisk. A whisk is actually all I've ever used for this step and it works perfectly fine.

As I whisk (off-heat), my batter will look opaque at times, and then clear golden amber with lots of bubbles on top, etc... All of these changes are normal, and I just keep on whisking away until the moment I start to see tiny little bubbles flying/floating _up in the air _over the pot or around my head. Some people call this the 'Flying Bubble Stage', but I kinda like calling it the "Laurence Welk Stage" lol. It normally takes all of 10 minutes from the time I start whisking until I see the flying bubbles. When I see them, I stop whisking, even if my soap in the pot is still liquid, which it usually is (still liquid), and with a nice foamy head on it like beer, to boot. In spite of the foamy head and the fact that it's not paste yet, it's all good and there's absolutely nothing to be concerned about. As long as I have the flying bubbles, all is well and on its way, and I can proceed to the next step....

*[Edited to add*: I should make a note at this point that if you don't see flying bubbles after 10 minutes of whisking.... or ever..... don't panic. Some people actually never see the flying bubbles, and that's okay. I've since learned that they are really nothing more than a just a fun visual indicator that your mixture is proceeding along fine. *When in doubt-* if you have been whisking for 8 to 10 minutes and you haven't seen any flying bubbles, but the batter is holding together fine without separating into oils and glycerin- it's perfectly fine to proceed to step 6.....*]*


6) ....which is when I cover my pot and leave it alone -still off the heat- to do its thing and become paste. If you used a stickblender, it will become paste very quickly indeed- as little as an hour or so- but with the whisk method, it normally takes between 4 to 6 hours for mine to become paste. So.... I either go out or I just busy myself with other things during this time. Or if it's bedtime, I'll just leave it to set up overnight and check on it in the morning, or later in the afternoon, or even later in the week if I have other things to do. As long as it's tightly covered, there's no need to worry myself about it or feel rushed. That's one of the beauties with this method- you can be lazy with it, and you don't need to cook it to the paste or neutral stage if you don't feel like it. Just let it rest on your counter for 4 to 6 hours or however long and it will become neutral paste all on its own. At least that's been my experience.

7) Because of the bubbly head that's normally resting on the top of my batter, it's pretty hard to tell if I have paste yet just by peeking into the pot and looking, so I scoop into it with a spoon to see what's what. I know I've reached the paste stage if it feels like I'm scooping into thick, sticky taffy, only the color is a beautiful translucent golden color with somewhat dried bubbles still on top.

8 ) When it's paste, I spoon out little globs of it from a couple of different areas of the pot and apply the tongue test to check for zap. Some people use pheno drops, but I'm kinda partial to the tongue test. It's accurate, instantaneous, easy, and best of all I don't have to shell out any money for it. lol If it doesn't zap, I proceed to the next step- dilution. So far, I've never had a GLS batch zap on me yet, but if i did, I'd just let it sit for ahile longer and test again.

I will have to write my diluting procedure in the next post (below) since I've exceeded my word limit for this post. 


IrishLass


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## IrishLass

Okay- to continue.......

To dilute, I use Carrie's canning jar method. It's easy and it prevents evaporation as your're diluting:

A) I heat up some water to simmering in a large soup pot (enough water to come up the sides of my (wide-mouth) canning jar without making the jar float). Also- I stick a round cake cooling rack in the bottom of the pot so that my canning jar won't be in direct contact with the pot's bottom.

B) While the pot of water is coming to a simmer, I weigh out my paste (dried foamy head and all) into an appropriate-sized canning jar, i.e., one that will accomodate my paste and dilution liquid with enough room to spare for stickblending purposes, and set aside.

C) I weigh out my dilution water and my sodium lactate and add them together into a separate pot (using the dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 parts water, and 3% sodium lactate as per weight of my paste)*[*See edited note in post #8 under procedure #3].* I bring this mixture to a boil then immediately pour it over my waiting paste in my canning jar.

D) Then I cover the the jar tightly with its matching lid, give it a shake, then place the jar into the large soup pot of simmering water to warm and soften things up.

E) After about 15-20 minutes or so I take the jar out, wipe the water/condensation off the jar, then I open it so I can stick a clean knife inside to stir things around and test how soft the paste has become. If it's as soft as jam/jelly, I hit it with my stickblender for a minute or so of on and off pulsing until there are no more lumps, but if the paste is not soft enough to my liking yet, I'll just cover it back up and let it sit in the simmering water about 10 minutes more and check again before deciding to stickblend or not.

I need to mention that when I hit it with the stickblender, the contents turn an opaque milky white color. This is normal and only temporary.

F) Once it has been stickblended, I squeegee off as much soap as I can from the stickblender back into the jar, cover with the lid, and stick the jar back into the pot of hot water (off the burner this time). If all goes as planned, the soap will clarify over the next few hours from the bottom up and turn into clear liquid soap with a foamy head on the surface.

G) Re: the foam: The foam eventually dissipates if I let it sit long enough (the warmth of the water helps greatly with this), but sometimes when I get impatient I'll spritz the foam with a spray or 2 of alcohol periodically to help the foam to dissipate in a more timely fashion. I try not to over-do the alcohol,though, because I don't want it to thin my soap out. I've read of people just skimming the foam off, but because I hate waste, I like to let it sit and dissipate to become part of the main body of soap.

H) When the soap is foam-free enough to my liking, I partition off as much as I would like to scent and bottle at that time, and I store the rest in the canning jar at room temp for later use.

I) When I add scent, I make sure to also add an equal amount of PS80 as per the amount of scent so that the scent will not separate out of my soap. I mix the scent with the PS80 and then stir the mixture into the soap. If it looks like the soap is clouding up from the scent at all, I'll just add more PS 80 drop by drop until all is clear again. Thankfully, that doesn't happen but once in a blue moon.

The finished soap is quite lovely, thick, and crystal clear:







Here is a shot of it outside held up to the sky:







My suds:






IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

PS80 = Polysorbate 80?

Irish Lass -- Your tutorial took a lot of time and effort to write, and I appreciate your thoroughness and thoughtfulness. Thank you so much for sharing. I, for one, have learned a lot and plan to try Carrie's recipe and your method. Wonderful!


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## Susie

Thank you so very much!  I will definitely be trying this ASAP.  (I need to think of someone that needs the liquid soap I have on hand first....)


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## jenfrat

Wow!  Thank you so much Irishlass!!  That was EXTREMELY helpful.  Can't wait to try a batch.

My next question is, does the glycerin method work best with soaps made with certain oils, or could I use it with whatever??

Thanks!!!!


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## Susie

I have not found any oils that glycerin does not get along with.


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## jenfrat

Ok, so how would this recipe do?  

OO 40%
Sunflower 20%
CO  14%
Castor 20%
Shea  6%

SF 3%

I understand that the shea may make it cloudy, but that doesn't really bother me.  Is it too ambitious?


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## IrishLass

You're very welcome everyone! I'm glad to be able to contribute. 



DeeAnna said:


> PS80 = Polysorbate 80?


 
Yes- Polysorbate-80. 




			
				jenfrat said:
			
		

> My next question is, does the glycerin method work best with soaps made with certain oils, or could I use it with whatever??


 
Ditto what Susie said. Of course, your results will vary just like they do in CP, and your dilution rates will differ, too (depending on which oils you choose to use), but the glycerin method will work with any oil. 




			
				jenfrat said:
			
		

> Ok, so how would this recipe do?
> OO 40%
> Sunflower 20%
> CO 14%
> Castor 20%
> Shea 6%
> SF 3%
> I understand that the shea may make it cloudy, but that doesn't really bother me. Is it too ambitious?


 
I'd go for it! My other favorite 'keeper' GLS actually contains both shea butter _and_ cocoa butter. Although it dilutes out to a rather "blah" murky/cloudy amber color, it gets transformed into a beautifully opaque, creamy/pearly swan with 2% stearic acid added to it. And I also add an extra 2% superfat to it when the soap is all finished and pearly (mixed with PS80 to emulsify). It's just a tiny bit more involved to make compared to Carrie's formula (the stearic adds an extra step near the end of dilution), but I'm working on perfecting my procedure so that the stearic can be added up front, thereby eliminating the extra step. My conundrum with the timing of the stearic addition stems from my early experiments with trying to perfect the dilution rate for this formula while simultaneously trying to make it creamy/pearly looking. That's what I get for trying to do 2 things at once. lol Right now, the 2% stearic is based on the finished diluted soap weight, but I'd like it to be based on the weight of the paste instead. Heavy sigh! I'll get it figured out soon. :crazy:

Anyway, for what it's worth, here's my recipe:

Coconut Oil 35%
Castor Oil 30%
Cocoa Butter 20%
Olive Oil 10%
Shea Butter 5%
KOH amount based on 3% superfat using Summerbee's Advanced Lye Calculator

I add the same amount of SL to the paste (3%) that I use in the other formula, but my dilution rate for it is much different. I must say that I had to play with it (the dilution rate) quite a bit, but I finally got it to where it comes out just as thick- 1 part paste to .41 (41%) parts water [paste weight X .41 or 41%]. A significant difference from the other formula, as you can see, which might be due to the higher amount of coconut oil (which needs much less water to dilute than other oils, I've found), but the consistency is great- as thick as honey- just the way I like it.

It feels great, too- very sumptuous with lots of lather- and not drying at all in spite of having 35% coconut oil in it. I attribute that to the added 2% superfat and the 2% stearic. 

*[Edited to add: I now have a separate tutorial for the above formula here: **http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974** ]*


IrishLass


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## Ellacho

Amazing! Thank you so much for sharing!!! I have made the liquid soap a couple times based on Catherine Failor's book. Making paste is doable but I have a biggest problem of diluting and neutralizing. I will definitely try your method, the glycerin. Thank you for writing such a long  tutorial. I know you've spent a lot of time and effort writing all these. Appreciate you greatly.


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## Jeanea

This post was right on time. I tried the soap 101 method the other day and my koh mix was never clear but like frosting. My glycerine was about 220 but as soon as the koh hit it, it was over. I'm going to try this out tomorrow. Thanks so much for the tutorial.


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## CookbookChef

TO IrishLass 

First I want to say that I am a Newbie, I am Overwhelmed with the information that I have NOT been getting here, and everywhere else I look. Meaning, I probably was NOT asking the RIGHT questions to get the ANSWER that I needed. Wow, your Tutorial is outstanding, and I read is WORD FOR WORD out loud so that My BRAIN could soak up exactly what you were saying/doing. I will DO THIS again and more than likely, again after that. I have TONS of Lye sitting in a box that I bought to make all kinds of Hard soap and Soft Soap, and so far not done a single thing. This box is taunting me, teasing me and SCARING ME!! I have 8 Pounds of KOH and 16 Pounds of Lye...(now please be patient, I dont know if I even said that right. but I have the LYE that makes HARD BAR SOAP and the LYE that makes LIQUID SOFT SOAP) yes, alot of it just waiting to be used. but I surely have been having trouble finding out HOW to use it. Ok...I KNOW i WILL have a few questions. Here is a question to Start With:
YOU SAID THE FOLLOWING:
8 ) When it's paste, I spoon out little globs of it from a couple of different areas of the pot and apply the tongue test to check for zap. 

My Question is this..what in the world is ZAP? Do you mean you check the liquid with a wooden tongue depressor and see if it ZAPS you? Nope, I am not trying to be funny here, all the CODES people use for terms on this site are enough to make me feel down right stupid. Lol....
I also bought 7 pounds of Palm Oil, some colors that are liquid from a company named life of the party, I got Yellow, Red and Blue, and a whole bunch of Mica Powders so that I can color using Mica, and 1 Pound of Stearic Acid from a company called Crafty candles ,Glycerin that I found at the local pharmacy, Castor Oil (not sure if this is the same as castor bean oil-on the label it states that this is an all natural laxative...so, not sure if its the same as castor BEAN oil) and something that MAKE bubbles, and its supposed to be all natural? its called: Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate...I got this to make sure I have enough bubble action in my liquid soap, but I did NOT see you mention it. I dont see OTHER saying anything about it eather. I Dont know if I should add it to the liquid gel at the END of things, or what? I have coconut oil, grapeseed oil, Hemp Seed Oil, Argan Oil, Borage Oil, Olive Oil, Sunflower Seed Oil, Apricot Kernel Oil, Shea Butter, Cocoa Butter and I will be getting some Jojoba oil and sweet almond oil. So, I have alot to start with, its because I already DO the standard bath stuff, bombs, lotions, soaks etc...but now am branching out. MAINLY if you get anything out of what I am asking about , its this...what is ZAP, how do I use Sodium Lauyl Sulfoacetate? and how to use Stearic Acid? I saw you talk about that breafly. okay, I am sure by now you understand that I am not only a Newbie, but a SUPER NEWBIE...lol, But of ALL the people that I have talked to, I see the BIGGEST potential of getting the help I need from YOU!! Thanks so much, CookbookChef



IrishLass said:


> You're very welcome everyone! I'm glad to be able to contribute.
> 
> YOU SAID THE FOLLOWING:
> 
> Anyway, for what it's worth, here's my recipe:
> 
> Coconut Oil 35%
> Castor Oil 30%
> Cocoa Butter 20%
> Olive Oil 10%
> Shea Butter 5%
> KOH amount based on 3% superfat using Summerbee's Advanced Lye Calculator
> 
> I add the same amount of SL to the paste (3%) that I use in the other formula, but my dilution rate for it is much different. I must say that I had to play with it (the dilution rate) quite a bit, but I finally got it to where it comes out just as thick- 1 part paste to .41 (41%) parts water [paste weight X .41 or 41%]. A significant difference from the other formula, as you can see, which might be due to the higher amount of coconut oil (which needs much less water to dilute than other oils, I've found), but the consistency is great- as thick as honey- just the way I like it.
> 
> It feels great, too- very sumptuous with lots of lather- and not drying at all in spite of having 35% coconut oil in it. I attribute that to the added 2% superfat and the 2% stearic.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



OK, THE ABOVE IS YOUR WORDS, NOW BELOW IS MY QUESTIONS, COMMENTS:
HI AGAIN, I wanted to ask you what (((SL))) IS? You mentioned that you added the same amount of SL to the paste as you did before. also, I have decided to make only ALL NATURAL soaps, so, I would say that means only adding in natural preservatives, like I do in sugar scrubs, I use vitamin E. so, instead of the polysorbate 80, can i just do vitamin E?? and all this talk of 2 percents this, and 3 percent that...wow, please direct me to where I can find MEANING to that please? and a calculator? thanks...and ps, it is because of your article, I will NOT blow my house up now. also, I bought a stick blender, but its plastic, and has a metal cutter blade....Sounds like this WONT work, and I need an all metal stick blade or use a Large Wire Wisk, right? Thanks again, ps, I guess I asked questions HERE, and on another post within the SAME thread, I hope you can find the OTHER questions. YOUR WONDERFUL!!!


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## Susie

Ok, one thing at the time.

First off, most of your questions can be answered with a little research in the forums here.  Get familiar with the search option, or better yet, Google.  I Googled the following:  soapmaking forum zap test guide and got this-

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30690

It is a sticky on the CP forum.

Second, it sounds to me like you need to do a whole lot more research before you start making anything.  Your stick blender(immersion blender) is fine.  I would not recommend you use a whisk for bringing things to trace.  Your arm will get really tired.

Third- the castor oil is the correct stuff.  

Fourth- you don't need Sodium Lauryl  Sufoacetate.  At all.  Some more experienced soapers use it, but it is not necessary.

Fifth- you don't have to use poly 80 or vit E to preserve this.  Make small batches until you know what you are doing.

Sixth-here is the soap calculator I use for almost everything.  Use the KOH 90% options at the top to account for the impurities in the KOH.  

http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/soapcalcWP.asp

Last- you need a whole lot more research before making any liquid soap.  If you have not made bar soap, you need to do that first before venturing into liquid soapmaking.  You need to learn the lingo and the processes.  If you have made bar soap, I apologize, but it does not sound like it.  Do go to the cold process area of these forums and read every sticky before venturing further.  If you have made bar soap, and are now ready for liquid soap, here is a video to get you started:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VUGV_H7bZU&list=TL0x7l9bj9OF5Hyaf8GG5E1GlasWG69xFS[/ame]


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Thank you, IrishLass, for that amazing run through.  I will give it a go when I have some time.  I know a few people who look at my bars and say "I don't use soap, only shower gel................." as if a bar is going to kill them!


----------



## IrishLass

Welcome CookbookChef! :wave: I love your enthusiasm and the passion you have for cooking and chocolate-making. (I just read your intro posts). I myself am just as passionate about soap-making.....and bread-making and making many other things from scratch (sometimes I think I was born in the wrong century).  

Well, let's see if we can get you started on the right foot.....

First, like Susie so rightly said, research is key. I think I spent a whole year just reading and studying and taking copious notes, then re-reading and re-studying again and again and again on all the different soap-making forums and educational sites before I felt brave/confident enough to try my hand at making my first batch. I'm not saying that you yourself will need to spend a whole year reading and researching, etc.., for afterall, we all learn in different ways and at different paces depending on our particular learning styles and previous experiences, etc..., but becoming familiar with the basic in's and out's of soap-making and its accompanying lingo is crucial and can't be emphasized enough, especially since you'll be working very intimately with something as potentially dangerous as lye.

One of my favorite educational sites to learn from back when I was still cutting my teeth on the subject is David Fisher's site: http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/s...n-And-Concepts-To-Get-Started-Making-Soap.htm As you read, you'll find lots of links that lead to further info. Go ahead and click on them. They each lead to very useful, more in-depth info that will come in handy. Remember to take lots of notes!



CookbookChef said:


> I have 8 Pounds of KOH and 16 Pounds of Lye...(now please be patient, I dont know if I even said that right. but I have the LYE that makes HARD BAR SOAP and the LYE that makes LIQUID SOFT SOAP)



No worries- you're not off the mark at all, but to be more specific, the KOH you bought is known as potassium hydroxide and it is for making all kinds of liquid soap, and the lye that you bought for making hard bars of soap is known as sodium hydroxide (i.e., NaOH). 



CookbookChef said:


> Here is a question to Start With:
> My Question is this..what in the world is ZAP? Do you mean you check the liquid with a wooden tongue depressor and see if it ZAPS you? Nope, I am not trying to be funny here, all the CODES people use for terms on this site are enough to make me feel down right stupid. Lol....



LOL Don't get down on yourself too badly- I used to feel the same way as you are feeling right now, but isn't that how it is for all of us when learning anything new? We all learn to crawl before we start walking and running, but have no fear- if you become as passionate about soap-making as you are about cooking and chocolate-making, you'll soon get the hang of things in no time. To me, soap-making is not at all very different from the art/science of baking- both utilize acid and alkaline ingredients that one manipulates to achieve a desired result. 

Anyway- to answer your question- ZAP is the term used for that tingly sensation one feels on the tip of their tongue when they stick it (the tip of their tongue) to a bar of soap or a dollop of soap paste that is either lye-heavy or not yet quite fully saponified. I don't know if you've ever played the silly childhood game of daring each other to stick the tip of your tongue to the terminal of a 9-volt battery like my siblings and I used to play when we were young, but if you have, then you'll have a fairly good understanding of what ZAP feels like. It's a slightly uncomfortable, tingly sensation that goes away as soon as you remove the soap from your tongue. Testing your soap this way is called the 'tongue test'. It's the preferred method of many soapers like myself to test for lye-heaviness or to gauge whether or not full saponification has been achieved yet in one's liquid soap paste or hot-processed (HP) soap.



CookbookChef said:


> I also bought 7 pounds of Palm Oil, some colors that are liquid from a company named life of the party, I got Yellow, Red and Blue, and a whole bunch of Mica Powders so that I can color using Mica



I'm not familiar with Life of the Party colorants, but I just wanted to give you a heads-up that not all colorants will work well in lye-based soaps because of the higher pH of the soap (they'll either be a total wash-out, fade, or change color). For future reference, when you buy colorants for use in lye-based soaps, you'll want to be sure they are first of all body-safe (which I'm sure you already know from making your other B&B products), and that they are also stable in lye-based soaps such as CP (cold-process lye soap), HP (hot-process lye soap) or LS (liquid lye-based soap). Also, lots of colorants that are stable in MP (melt & pour soap, i.e, comparable to the melt and dip chocolate that you talked about in one of your other posts) usually do not work in lye-based soap. That's just something you'll want to be mindful of.



CookbookChef said:


> Castor Oil (not sure if this is the same as castor bean oil-on the label it states that this is an all natural laxative...so, not sure if its the same as castor BEAN oil)



Yes- that is the same as castor bean oil. You can also find it at many health-food stores in bigger bottles than the pharmacy usually sells.


CookbookChef said:


> and something that MAKE bubbles, and its supposed to be all natural? its called: Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate...I got this to make sure I have enough bubble action in my liquid soap, but I did NOT see you mention it.



Now this is where the beauty and creative fun of making your own soap enters in. You actually don't need to use Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate (i.e., SLSA) to make bubbly liquid soap (or hard soap either for that matter). Lots of commercial soap companies use it in ther soap, but they formulate and make their 'soap' quite differently than we home soap-makers do. You will find that the coconut oil that you bought will make your soap quite bubbly without a single iota of 'help' from SLSA. Now, I do happen to have some SLSA on hand to experiment with in my soap just for the pure joy of experimentation, but I haven't used any of it yet. I plan to try it out in a 100% olive oil batch one of these days when I get around to it. Or maybe even a 100% tallow batch.

I'll answer the remaing of your questions in the following post (it seems I've exceeded my word quota again ) lol.

IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass

Okay! Here's Part II!



CookbookChef said:


> I have coconut oil, grapeseed oil, Hemp Seed Oil, Argan Oil, Borage Oil, Olive Oil, Sunflower Seed Oil, Apricot Kernel Oil, Shea Butter, Cocoa Butter and I will be getting some Jojoba oil and sweet almond oil. So, I have alot to start with


You have a lot of good oils there, but it's best to keep things simple when first starting out making soap. If it were me and I was just starting out, I would focus mainly on utilizing these at first: Palm oil, olive oil, coconut oil, castor oil, shea butter and/or, cocoa butter. You can make some pretty awesome soap with a combo of any of those. 



CookbookChef said:


> I wanted to ask you what (((SL))) IS? You mentioned that you added the same amount of SL to the paste as you did before.


SL = sodium lactate. It's an additive I like to add to my soap (both bar soap and liquid soap), and also my lotions. It's one of those additives that serves many purposes depending what you add it into. For example, in my CP (cold-processed bar soap), it lends a creamy 'feel' to my lather and it makes the soap firmer and easier to unmold. In my HP (hot-processed bar soap), it makes my cooked soap batter more smooth and flowing so that it's easier to pour into my mold. In my liquid soap, it helps to break up/dissolve the paste much more quickly and easily. And in my lotions it acts as a humectant, drawing moisture to the skin. 



CookbookChef said:


> also, I have decided to make only ALL NATURAL soaps, so, I would say that means only adding in natural preservatives, like I do in sugar scrubs, I use vitamin E. so, instead of the polysorbate 80, can i just do vitamin E??



Polysorbate 80 is not a preservative (it's an emulsifier), and actually, neither is vitamin E (it's an antioxidant). Here is an excellent and very informative atricle on the differences between preservatives and antioxidants by someone I hold in very high esteem: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/04/preservatives.html

To be honest, I actually don't add any preservatives to my soap at all, whether liquid or bar soap. If you read very far on any of the forums you will soon run into 2 schools of thought on that subject with some very heated (and some not-so- heated) debates surrounding it by very qualified scientific-minded people on both sides. I've waded through many of the arguments/debates, weighed all the pros and cons, and speaking only for myself, I came to the conclusion that they would be wasteful over-kill in my formulas. Now my lotions are an entirely different matter altogether- in those I 100% insist on using a very good preservative in those, no if's, and's, but's about it- but I really can't justify their use in my soap. The only time I would ever consider using one in my soap, it would be for liquid soap, and only if I decided to super-dilute it in order to package it for use in one of those foamer-type bottles.



CookbookChef said:


> and all this talk of 2 percents this, and 3 percent that...wow, please direct me to where I can find MEANING to that please?



You can't find a better explanation than this (he makes things so simple!): http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/coldprocesssoapmaking/a/measvspercent.htm



CookbookChef said:


> and a calculator?



I use this one for my hard/bar soap: http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp

and this one for my liquid soaps: http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps




CookbookChef said:


> I bought a stick blender, but its plastic, and has a metal cutter blade....Sounds like this WONT work, and I need an all metal stick blade or use a Large Wire Wisk, right?



A wire whisk is perfectly fine. That's all that I use for the initial stage where I am stirring my hot, molten batter to bring it to the 'flying bubble stage'. If you decide you want to use a stickblender for that stage, then yes- I would invest in a stickblender with a metal shaft, but otherwise, no, it's not necessary. Now, I do use a stickblender later on when I'm diluting, but I've found that my Hamilton Beach stickblender with the plastic shaft works just as fine for that particular stage as my stickblender with a metal shaft (although the batter is quite warm then, it's not as red-hot anymore). A stickblender with a plastic shaft is also perfectly fine for making hard soap, too (that's all I use for my hard bars).

IrishLass


----------



## Susie

I just got a couple of foamer bottles a couple of weeks ago, and I did not have to thin my liquid soap at all.   Of course, my liquid soap is LIQUID.  Not honey consistency or anything.  I am going to get some sodium lactate to try that method.  I just found some at Lotioncrafters.


----------



## CookbookChef

IrishLass said:


> Okay! Here's Part II!
> 
> 
> You have a lot of good oils there, but it's best to keep things simple when first starting out making soap. If it were me and I was just starting out, I would focus mainly on utilizing these at first: Palm oil, olive oil, coconut oil, castor oil, shea butter and/or, cocoa butter. You can make some pretty awesome soap with a combo of any of those.
> 
> 
> SL = sodium lactate. It's an additive I like to add to my soap (both bar soap and liquid soap), and also my lotions. It's one of those additives that serves many purposes depending what you add it into. For example, in my CP (cold-processed bar soap), it lends a creamy 'feel' to my lather and it makes the soap firmer and easier to unmold. In my HP (hot-processed bar soap), it makes my cooked soap batter more smooth and flowing so that it's easier to pour into my mold. In my liquid soap, it helps to break up/dissolve the paste much more quickly and easily. And in my lotions it acts as a humectant, drawing moisture to the skin.
> 
> 
> 
> Polysorbate 80 is not a preservative (it's an emulsifier), and actually, neither is vitamin E (it's an antioxidant). Here is an excellent and very informative atricle on the differences between preservatives and antioxidants by someone I hold in very high esteem: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/04/preservatives.html
> 
> To be honest, I actually don't add any preservatives to my soap at all, whether liquid or bar soap. If you read very far on any of the forums you will soon run into 2 schools of thought on that subject with some very heated (and some not-so- heated) debates surrounding it by very qualified scientific-minded people on both sides. I've waded through many of the arguments/debates, weighed all the pros and cons, and speaking only for myself, I came to the conclusion that they would be wasteful over-kill in my formulas. Now my lotions are an entirely different matter altogether- in those I 100% insist on using a very good preservative in those, no if's, and's, but's about it- but I really can't justify their use in my soap. The only time I would ever consider using one in my soap, it would be for liquid soap, and only if I decided to super-dilute it in order to package it for use in one of those foamer-type bottles.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't find a better explanation than this (he makes things so simple!): http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/coldprocesssoapmaking/a/measvspercent.htm
> 
> 
> 
> I use this one for my hard/bar soap: http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp
> 
> and this one for my liquid soaps: http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A wire whisk is perfectly fine. That's all that I use for the initial stage where I am stirring my hot, molten batter to bring it to the 'flying bubble stage'. If you decide you want to use a stickblender for that stage, then yes- I would invest in a stickblender with a metal shaft, but otherwise, no, it's not necessary. Now, I do use a stickblender later on when I'm diluting, but I've found that my Hamilton Beach stickblender with the plastic shaft works just as fine for that particular stage as my stickblender with a metal shaft (although the batter is quite warm then, it's not as red-hot anymore). A stickblender with a plastic shaft is also perfectly fine for making hard soap, too (that's all I use for my hard bars).
> 
> IrishLass



Well, I do NOT know how to answer you except to say THANK YOU, I know you know what i am talking about when I say this. I think you DO understand how NEW I am at this. I humbly thank you. I learned alot, and to answer in simple terms, I think I need to LEARN before I DO. I actually see that. I thank you with all of my heart


----------



## IrishLass

You're very welcome, Cookbook Chef.  Glad to be of help. Happy soaping!



 IrishLass


----------



## KristaY

Wow! Irish Lass, you're simply amazing. I'm soooo thankful for you posting your procedure on the glycerin method. I've been using Catherine Failor's recipe's for over and year. She's a foremost authority but I'm getting tired of the balancing act between excess KOH and boric acid. Then there's the problem with scent separation. I have many mason jars sitting there with ugly separation that I will only use in my bathroom sink dispensers. I was really starting to feel like a liquid soap failure! Not only am I going to try your method, I'm going to try PS80 as well. If it doesn't fix what I've got sitting, maybe I can avoid the issues in future. Irish Lass, you totally rock! :clap:


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## Sweet_Vivi

Hi ladies, thank you for this thread! I tried the recipe posted by Irish Lass (thank you! ) and I had a question. I diluted it today per instructions and added the sodium lactate as indicated. I stick blended when the paste was soft enough and let it sit to clarify. A few hours later, I went to check on it and it has a thick, cream colored layer and the liquid below is honey colored and consistency is like honey. I tried stick blending the creamy layer into the honey colored liquid soap, but it just separated again. What is that and what do I do? Any help is greatly appreciated.


----------



## IrishLass

Sweet_Vivi said:


> Hi ladies, thank you for this thread! I tried the recipe posted by Irish Lass (thank you! ) and I had a question. I diluted it today per instructions and added the sodium lactate as indicated. I stick blended when the paste was soft enough and let it sit to clarify. A few hours later, I went to check on it and it has a thick, cream colored layer and the liquid below is honey colored and consistency is like honey. I tried stick blending the creamy layer into the honey colored liquid soap, but it just separated again. What is that and what do I do? Any help is greatly appreciated.


 
Welcome to the forum, Sweet_Vivi! :wave:

I completely understand your concern, but there's no need to worry- it actually looks and sounds like things are progressing along in the same way as they normally do for me. Here is a pic of my soap taken at the very same stage as yours is now (I use canning jars to dilute because I don't have a designated soap crockpot):






Anyway, that nice white foamy head on top will go away the longer you let it sit. This is where having lots of patience comes in handy.

Make sure you keep it covered tightly as it sits. Oh, and a little heat helps, too. I leave my jar in my pot of hot water (off the burner) as I'm waiting for the head to dissolve into the main body of soap.

Every once in a while, I'll spray the surface of the foamy head with a spritz or 2 of alcohol that I keep on hand in a small spray bottle (it helps to knock the air out of some the foam). Go easy on the spraying, though, or else your soap may come out too thin. Just a judicial spritz or 2 every once in awhile to knock down a little bit of some of the very top surface of the foam is plenty enough to help things along.

At this point, time is your best friend. Just leave it alone to do it's thing. If the foamy head is still there after a day or 2 and there is a solid blob underneath the lighter foamy stuff, just add more water, apply a little heat, and stickblend it in- but add the water just a little bit at a time- as little as 1/2 to 1 mL at a time. I know that that seems like it would be too small of an amount to have any kind of an effect, but trust me- it's not as small as one might think.

Please keep us posted on the progress!

IrishLass


----------



## kylie_au

Thankyou for putting in the time and effort to share this tutorial. 
That is the simplest version of liquid soap i have ever read, and i now have a renewed interest in making some.

You are a great lady :razz:


----------



## Sweet_Vivi

IrishLass said:


> Please keep us posted on the progress!
> 
> IrishLass



Thank you so much, IrishLass! :wink: I'm sorry it took me so long to update, but for some reason I wasn't able to log on from my phone and had to wait to get to a computer. I had a thick blob sitting on top, as you said, and I diluted with more water and everything turned out perfectly. Since then, I've made two more batches (I get obsessive at times...LOL); one with no superfat and one with 2% superfat. So far, so good.  PH is testing 8. Thank you so much for all your help! I look forward to continuing to learn and hopefully play around with some recipes.


----------



## IrishLass

Yay! I'm so glad to hear things turned out great! I _knew_ that they would, but it's great to hear it all the same.  I've found the glycerin method to be so forgiving (as you yourself just found out). It's so simple that I just can't see myself making liquid soap any other way. 

 I'm not surprised at all to hear that you made 2 more batches. Once you get one successful batch under your belt, it's very hard not to want to make gobs and gobs more (at least for me)! lol


 IrishLass


----------



## shaan

Hi! I am also new to liquid soapmaking. I use soapcalc for hard bars..but for liquid soap how much water percent should i use while calculating? In the video i saw 1 oz glycerin with 3 oz lye.. is the glycerin amount not very less? As this is my first try,i have entered the total oil weight to be 300 grams. I used 35% as water percent.. the other oils being
castor oil- 10%- 30 g ,
coconut oil- 25%- 75 g,
Olive oil- 65% - 195 g. Which gave water- 105 g and KOH - 66 g.. does that mean i should use 105 g of glycerin in place of water and continue with the same procedure as mentioned? And we need not check temperatures? What would be the temperature of adding lye and oils? Or just add it when oils are melted and glycerin boiling? When do we need to off and on the crockpot? After adding boiled water for neutrality, do we need to leave it overnight? I read it somewhere to leave it overnight and heat the mixture again in the morning and then mix it. Would using stick blender not create foams?


----------



## seven

_*1 oz glycerin with 3 oz lye*_
you mean 1oz lye and 3oz glycerin?

_*does that mean i should use 105 g of glycerin in place of water and continue with the same procedure as mentioned?*_
i suggest using 3:1 water:lye ratio when doing the glycerin method. so, for 66 gr of lye, you will need 198 gr of glycerin. KOH needs more water to dissolve than NaOH if i remember correctly.

_*And we need not check temperatures? What would be the temperature of adding lye and oils? Or just add it when oils are melted and glycerin boiling?*_ 
don't worry too much about temp when doing hot process. as per soaping101 video, you heat the glycerin, mix in the lye till everything is dissolved. after that, add the mixture to your oils. i assume you are using a crockpot?

_*When do we need to off and on the crockpot? After adding boiled water for neutrality, do we need to leave it overnight? I read it somewhere to leave it overnight and heat the mixture again in the morning and then mix it. Would using stick blender not create foams?*_
after your paste is done and you are ready to dilute, put the water and turn the crockpot on warm/low and leave it overnight. again, follow soaping101 video, she made it very clear on the steps. i personally do not use SB when diluting.

are you using soapcalc? if so, there is a box to tick that accounts for the purity of KOH. afaik, the KOH these days in the market is only 90% purity. make sure to tick that box and let the calc do the calculation for you. this way, you don't need to neutralize anymore. 

i also suggest keeping your SF level none-low to ensure a clear soap. if you don't care so much about color, please disregard this.


----------



## Susie

I agree with everything seven said with one exception.  I would use 1% superfat just to ensure that your soap is not lye heavy in the case of a slight error on weights.  There is just no breathing room with 0% superfat.  And I don't want you to have to learn to neutralize.  

Also, leave the water amount alone when setting your recipe up in the lye calculator.  The 38% is fine.  Just use the glycerin in place of the correct amount of water.  This does not include dilution water.  This is just paste water.

And no, you use a spoon or spatula during dilution, not a stick blender.


----------



## shaan

Thanx seven and susie.. i am almost clear of my doubts..i will try my first attempt today..then tell u the results..thanks a lot.


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## shaan

Hey! Tried my first liquid soap today..started with glycerin. it was first cloudy with bubbles and then clear..oils were slightly warm,around 94°f. I added glycerin to oils..it was slightly opaque,little cloudy,then turned dark and transparent ,then thick amber color,then a sticky paste like jaggery mixed in water,then again slightly transparent thin liquid..then honey like liquid with a foamy top..then the bubbles started flying in the air..here i stopped blending and put the lid on with crockpot on low..after an hour nothing changed..again after an hour nothing happened, so i whisked it continuously and it was a creamy and foamy mixture..i though something went wrong so i checked the post again..and turned off the pot


----------



## shaan

Actually i was confused between many pages and videos and was expecting different stages on slow cooking.. so,after turning it off,it became hard and sticky and creamy color after half hour..i did clarity test..water was very clear..then i added water in 3:1 proportion of paste and water..my paste weighed 525 grams,i multiplied it by 3,which gave me 1575 grams of water..then i again went through this thread,and it mentions to take 75% water,that would be around 945 something.. did i add wrong amount of water? Will it be too thin? I have left it in the pot on warm and will check it tomorrow, then will update and send pics.


----------



## seven

congrats on your first LS! 

stages can be different b/w soapmakers, so don't stress about it. as for dilution, 3:1 is a bit much me thinks, it's going to make a very thin soap. i suggest 1:1 first and add more water if it seems to thick.


----------



## shaan

:-(  yes..looks very very watery at present ..lets see what it turns out tomorrow.. i will post pics..is there no way to thicken it now? I did 3:1 as it was mentioned in the video..it looked very thick and clear..mine is too thin.


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## shaan

What if i make another 500 grams paste and add that to the present soap mixture? Would it not balance the amount? it would be 1:1 ratio.


----------



## Susie

Congratulations on making liquid soap!

Wait to see what you get tomorrow before worrying.  If you did indeed follow the recipe on the Soaping 101 video, it will turn out watery, as that is the nature of that particular recipe.  It is not the end of the world, however, as it is perfect for a foamer bottle, and it still cleans fine.

If you simply must try to thicken it, I would indeed make another batch, and add around 2 oz paste to your diluted soap until they stop melting.  Then just make a note of how much paste it took to how much water to figure out what you should do in the future.  Each batch is different.  You will learn from experience where to start out adding dilution water based on the ingredients.  

_*Keep good notes on every batch!*_  This will prove an invaluable resource in the future!  Next time you go to make the same thing, you will then see that it did not go through all the stages, and it took only X amount of water to dilute Y amount of paste.

Most home made liquid soaps tend to be on the watery side.  Some soapers have perfected recipes using sodium lactate and other ingredients that come out as thick as commercial products.  Use the search option to locate them.


----------



## shaan

That was very helpful.. thanks a lot! I dont want to send the pics,its all water.looking like mud water with foam. :-(


----------



## shaan

Its lathering quite well,little bit drying..can i use it right away or is it necessary to wait for 2 weeks? Can i use it to wash my hair?


----------



## Susie

It is fine to use now.  The 2 weeks  wait time is to allow any particles to settle to the bottom.  I have yet to have any particles in mine.

You can use it for whatever you like.  I tried it for shampoo.  Was not impressed, but it certainly did not hurt my hair.  
I prefer shampoo bars now that I have made those.


----------



## shaan

Hey this is how it looks at present.. one day old..now what?is it fine?what is the white part above the kind of transparent liquid? Should i just leave it for two weeks?


----------



## Ellacho

IrishLass said:


> Yay! I'm so glad to hear things turned out great! I _knew_ that they would, but it's great to hear it all the same.  I've found the glycerin method to be so forgiving (as you yourself just found out). It's so simple that I just can't see myself making liquid soap any other way.
> 
> I'm not surprised at all to hear that you made 2 more batches. Once you get one successful batch under your belt, it's very hard not to want to make gobs and gobs more (at least for me)! lol
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Hi IrishLass, I tried your recipe and your method of making glycerin liquid soap. I am not sure what went wrong but my glycerin/lye turned into a thick white paste when I boiled them together.... I heated glycerin/lye to over 200 degrees for 20+ minutes but they never turned into crystal clear.  It was like more white frosting...sigh...

Nevertheless, I poured the mixture to heated oils. It did not turned into crystal clear color like I've seen it on Carrie Peterson's Youtube but it's more like amber or tan color...:-( It's probably something to do with the frosting mixture). 

It's my first time making glycerin liquid soap, so any advice will be greatly appreciated. Thank you!!


Here's my recipe:

65% Olive Oil 
25% Ex Virgin Coconut Oil
10% Castor Oil

SF @ 3% -  using Soapcalc. Checked KOH is 90% pure

 I used AAA KOH(90%)

BTW, it's cooking in my crock pot. I will be turning it off in one hour and go to bed :-?.


----------



## Susie

shaan said:


> Hey this is how it looks at present.. one day old..now what?is it fine?what is the white part above the kind of transparent liquid? Should i just leave it for two weeks?



I am sorry I missed you asking about the white part until now.  I have no idea why I missed it.

At any rate, the white part is probably either foam, undissolved soap paste, or superfatting.  You will have to test to see what it is.  If it is foam, spray with alcohol, and it should die down rapidly.  If it is undissolved soap paste, just remove it from the liquid, and mix with more water.  If it is superfatting, you can just remove it by pouring into a gravy separator cup that allows you to pour the bottom off first.  You may have to let it sit a bit before pouring.  Hope that helps!


----------



## IrishLass

Ellacho, I have a very good idea of why your KOH/glycerin turned into a thick, white paste while boiling/dissolving..... 

Both Carrie Peterson and myself use SummerbeeMeadow's advanced lye calculator instead of SoapCalc when calculating our KOH and glycerin amounts for our glycerin liquid soap. If you type your recipe into both of the calculators and then compare the results of how much water (or glycerin) they each give you to use for your batch, you'll notice that Summerbee gives you a much higher amount to use than SoapCalc. 

I just typed the recipe into both calculators set for a 1 lb batch superfatted at 3%, and I clicked on the 90% purity & KOH buttons on SoapCalc. Summerbee does not have a 90% purity button to click on since the purity is already figured into their advanced calculator by default (they were pioneers in the practice of taking the purity of KOH into consideration and they built the purity factor into their advanced calculator by default years before SoapCalc woke up to it and began making available their 90% option button.) Anyway, this is what I got:

SummerbeeMeadow's calls for 3.4 oz./96g KOH (with purity already taken into account by default) and 10.19 oz./ 288.8g water (or glycerin), which turns out to be about a 25% lye solution by default (which they believe is the best lye solution level for making liquid soaps). 

SoapCalc calls for 3.5 oz./100.5g KOH at 90% purity and 6 oz./172g water (or glycerin), which is about a 34% lye solution.

See the huge difference in water (or glycerin) amounts? Carrie and I both use about 4 more ounces of glycerin in ours than what SoapCalc calls for. That is why ours dissolves in about 5 to 10 minutes and turns out crystal clear and why yours became pasty and took so long/was troublesome to dissolve. 

Next time, I would either use Summerbee's advanced calculator, or else set the lye concentration on SoapCalc to around 25%.

HTH!
IrishLass


----------



## Susie

I use SBM Advanced for liquid soap also.  I just like the outcomes better.  Thank you, IrishLass for defining why!  I don't think I ever took the time to figure it out.


----------



## Ellacho

Hi IrishLass!!

Thank you so much for your quick response! Ah~ It makes sense now! You are right, my soap paste is lye heavy(see the picture). This morning, I checked my crock pot and my soap paste was as hard as taffy candy. I should've used Summerbee's advanced calculator ....for next batch, I will definitely use it.


Now...what will be the best way to save this soap paste? Should I add extra glycerin back into the pot and cook some more? 

Please help! Thank you so much IrishLass !


----------



## Susie

How long was that cooked for?  Less liquid(water or glycerin) does not make it lye heavy, it just makes it harden faster.  That lye heavy will need either more cooking(if not cooked long enough) or more oil to balance out the lye heaviness.

(I am not really trying to hijack IrishLass answering, I just think that she is going to need to know a bit more of the method thus far.)(And I am nosy.)


----------



## Ellacho

Susie said:


> How long was that cooked for?  Less liquid(water or glycerin) does not make it lye heavy, it just makes it harden faster.  That lye heavy will need either more cooking(if not cooked long enough) or more oil to balance out the lye heaviness.
> 
> (I am not really trying to hijack IrishLass answering, I just think that she is going to need to know a bit more of the method thus far.)(And I am nosy.)



Hi Susie,
Thank you for your response to my inquiry! That's right! What am I thinking? DUH... My recipe was not lye heavy in first place...It was just a matter of color not being clear. 

The crock pot was turned off after I cooked it for 1 1/2 hours later.  I did not cook it enough - right? The average LS cooking time is around 3 - 4 hours, but I could be wrong.     

Ok...I am going to cook it more now.... But then, I do need some sort of assurance from LS experienced soapers.  Is it all I have to do :??

Thank you again for your help!


----------



## KatieShephard

Totally subbing to this thread!  IrishLass's recipes are officially added to my "to make" list


----------



## Susie

Ellacho said:


> Hi Susie,
> Thank you for your response to my inquiry! That's right! What am I thinking? DUH... My recipe was not lye heavy in first place...It was just a matter of color not being clear.
> 
> The crock pot was turned off after I cooked it for 1 1/2 hours later.  I did not cook it enough - right? The average LS cooking time is around 3 - 4 hours, but I could be wrong.
> 
> Ok...I am going to cook it more now.... But then, I do need some sort of assurance from LS experienced soapers.  Is it all I have to do :??
> 
> Thank you again for your help!



I am the wrong person to ask.  I am the CP LS gal.  I just hate to cook and stir that paste.  

But, if the problem was that it hardened too fast, I would add the remainder of what was missing from the recipe.  IrishLass showed that you had about 4 ounces too little liquid.  Add that and cook another hour before pheno testing again.  When it tests clear on top of the paste,(not the paper towel), you are done.  Just start dilution.


----------



## IrishLass

Ellacho- could you give me a brief breakdown of what you did?

Here's what I have so far. Please correct me if I am wrong, or fill in the blanks where needed. 

1. You mixed the KOH with too little glycerin and cooked for 20+ minutes and ended up with a thick/pasty white lye solution instead of a liquidy clear solution.

2. You then poured the thick pasty solution into your heated oils.

3. You cooked the mixture for 1 1/2 hours in your crockpot before turning the crockpot off and going to bed.

4. Presently, you want to know if you should cook it some more.

How did I do? 

Well, first thing- one of the really cool things about the glycerin method is that you don't actually need to cook it to the paste stage. I never cook mine and it saponifies to the paste stage all on its own just fine between 1 to 6 hours (depending on the formula). 

Here's a brief rundown of what I do: Once my KOH/glycerin solution is mixed in with my heated oils, I just stir the mixture with a whisk until I see tiny bubbles flying up from out of my pot and floating in the air around my head (which takes all of 10 minutes, normally). That's a sign that the mixture has saponified enough to become soap, but the mixture is still quite liquidy and harsh/zappy at this point, and so I just cover it and leave it alone (off heat) to finish doing its thing - i.e., to finish saponifying into firm, tongue-neutral taffy-like paste all by itself with no interference from me. Like I said, this can take anywhere from 1 hour to 6 hours depending on the formula, and sometimes if I'm lazy I'll just leave it overnight to do it's thing. 

Once it has become firm, taffy-like paste and tests out tongue-neutral, it is ready for dilution. 

How does your paste check out? Is it tongue-neutral? If so, you can dilute it any time now (or later at a more convenient time. The paste will wait patiently for you until you are ready). If it's not tongue-neutral, just cover it and let it sit for longer (no need to cook it to neutrality).

If it's tongue-neutral, this is how I would go about it if I was diluting your extra-thick paste that's scant on the glycerin:

First, I would add back the missing difference in glycerin (between SoapCalc and Summerbee) to the extra thick paste in your crockpot and start heating it up (while occassionally stirring as the soap paste softens/melts from the heat). Once the paste is melty and the glycerin is mixed in well, then I would weigh it and then I would start adding the dilution water. For this particular recipe, I like to use a ratio of 1 part paste to .75 parts water for a nice, pourable, honey-like consistency (just multiply the weight of the melty paste/glycerin mixture by .75 or 75% to get the amount of dilution water to add). You can add more water if you like it thinner, but start with .75 parts water first, and proceed (a tiny bit at a time) from there until you get the consistency you like (less is more where the glycerin method is concerned).

 Let me know how it goes and/or if you need more help!

IrishLass


----------



## Susie

*Whew*

Saved by IrishLass!

By the way, got the cast off today...guess what I am making tomorrow?


----------



## Ellacho

Oh!! Hi IrishLass ! Thank you for responding my question. Sorry... I will give you a brief breakdown of what I  did as soon as I pick up daughter from school! Talk to you soon! Thank you!!


----------



## Ellacho

Hi IrishLass,

OMG! You are awesome !  You did well!! Yes, 1-4 are all correct! 

My paste has been in the pot since last night(that's almost 24 hours now). I just checked my paste and to my surprise, it is tongue-neutral even though its phenol test result is still dark pink. Can this happen? Hmm...May be I don't know how to do a zap test.

I will put the missing difference in glycerin back into the pot and let it cook. Keep it in the pot over night. Then, dilute it tomorrow. Whew~~I got it, right?

I cannot thank you enough for taking your precious time responding back to me such way I can understand how to finish up making glycerin LS soap. What a relief!!

Thank you again!


----------



## DeeAnna

And so goes another lesson in the Zen of No-Drama Liquid Soapmaking by Susie and Irish Lass. Applause!


----------



## IrishLass

I'm so glad to be able to help out! 



Ellacho said:


> My paste has been in the pot since last night(that's almost 24 hours now). I just checked my paste and to my surprise, it is tough-neutral even though its phenol test result is still dark pink. Can this happen? Hmm...May be I don't know how to do a zap test.




Depending on how you conducted the phenol test, I think I just might trust in an inexperienced tongue more than I do in the color of the phenolphthalein that you are getting, especially since phenol turns pink in the presence of alkalinity- and since soap is alkaline, interpreting the color can be tricky at best. I know that Carrie uses the tissue smear method with the phenol (and it looks from you picture that you did, too?), but from all I've read about phenolphthalein, it only works in solution, i.e., for it to be able to work properly, one needs to make a 1% solution out of the soap by mixing 1 gram of soap into 99 grams of water first before testing it with a 1% phenol/ethanol solution. 

If you ask me- I'd go with what your tongue is telling you, especially since you seem to have weighed and calculated everything out correctly, and the paste is now over 24 hours old, but then again, I must confess that I'm partial to the tongue test. It's my go-to testing method of choice. 

 To conduct- just rub a little of your paste between 2 fingers under some running water to get some suds going, and then touch the tip of your tongue to the suds. If there's still unreacted lye in it, your tongue will feel it as a tingly or biting sensation- almost as if the soap decided to nip or bite you back for being so rude as to stick your tongue to it. lol It's not unlike the feeling you would get by putting a drop of hot sauce on the tip of your tongue, or stuck your tongue to the terminal of a 9-volt battery (the small ones, not the really large kind). A good way to know if you are interpreting the tongue test correctly is to get a bar of store-bought soap (which should be tongue-neutral) and use it as a control subject with which to compare.


 IrishLass


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## Ellacho

Will do! IrishLass, you are such a kind soul . Thank you so much!


----------



## IrishLass

I'm just glad to be of help. 

 IrishLass


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## deg195

*thanks IrishLass*

I have been doing research in order to make my first liquid soap.  I came across this thread and it is soooo wonderful.  Thanks you everyone and esp IrishLass as I am going to try your way (as soon as I get KOH)...  I do have one question...
for the dilution phase... I do not have a crock pot so I was thinking about trying the mason jar method you described.  Does a stick blender really fit in the mouth of the mason jar?  May I ask what size jars you use?  Thanks in advance, Barb


----------



## IrishLass

Hi Barb!

Yes- the Mason jars work great, but make sure to use the wide-mouth kind. I use the wide-mouth quart-size. I can dilute 16 oz. of paste in them comfortably, and my stickblender fits just fine in them. Although I haven't put the regular mouth size jars to the test, they look like they would be too small or awkward for a stickblender.


IrishLass


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## Susie

Just did the first part of making IrishLass' GLS, and used a stick blender.  Just going to warn anyone else that you may get a false paste(heh) *before* flying bubbles.  Just stir down with a silicone spatula, or stainless steel spoon.  It will go back liquid, then flying bubbles will appear shortly thereafter.

*Update*  Took two hours from lid on to no zap paste.  This process is FAST!

Dilution took under an hour, and precisely 75% of paste weight.  

This is definitely the fastest liquid soap I have ever made.  Total time from weighing first oil to putting lid on to sit:  25 minutes. Total elapsed time from weighing first oil to completed dilution:  3 hours, 55 minutes.  I probably could have shaved 30 minutes off of that if I had gone back to check the paste sooner.

IrishLass- my hat is definitely off to you for this one!  I don't know what the finished soap will be like(no sodium lactate yet), but this is now officially titled "IrishLass' Super Speedy Liquid Soap".


----------



## Ellacho

Hi IrishLass & Susie,

Here is my update: On Tuesday night, I went over my recipe, this thread(read 3x) and Soap101 video just to have a better understanding the whole glycerin liquid soap making process.   To my surprise, I found out that I used 1:2 ratio, lye:water! I probably used that ratio because soap101 recipe had the same ratio. 

So on the same late night, I put the missing difference in glycerin back into the pot and heated it, and by next morning, the paste has softened and turned translucent! Wow! It just needed more glycerin! See the Pictures below. I am going to dilute the paste today.

I am planning to use 3% of sodium lactate(per weight of my paste) in powder form using 1 part paste to .75 water. Unfortunately, I don't have the SL in liquid form. Hope my powder SL works as good as liquid LS. 

I will upload my final liquid soap tomorrow! Yay!!

One question, can you please share your thoughts about lye water ratio? Last month I took a liquid soap making class, the instructor also used about the same lye:water ratio, 1:3.  It's pretty much a standard ratio for most liquid soap making. But  Catherine(soap101) used the 1:2 ratio in GLS (3KOH:6Glycerin) and it still came out great. Nothing like my paste....
I am still wondering why...Can you please shed some light on this? 

Thank you so much ladies!


----------



## Ellacho

Also, Catherine used 3:1(3water:1paste) dilution ratio....I know it's something to do with the recipe, more olive oil requires the high amount of water...But then, our recipe also has 65% of olive oil... I am bit confused...:?


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## Susie

I use the 3:1 ratio of liquid to KOH.  It just works better for me.  And I have had trouble with using the reduced amount.


----------



## IrishLass

I am so glad to hear of all the good results! Yay! :clap: That makes my day! 

Yes- this is by far such a simple liquid soap process to do. And so forgiving, too, as you have now found out! I've never tried the Failor method or used the Soaping 101 recipe to compare, but this particular method (and recipe) is so easy and quick that I can't see myself doing it any other way. I can't take any credit for it, though. My hat goes off to Carrie Peterson (3bees~1flower over at the Dish forum) who I consider to be my glycerin liquid soap making guru. If it weren't for her, I never would have had the courage to try liquid soap making at all.

Ellacho- as far as the water (or glycerin):lye ratio for the liquid soap goes, I'm like Susie- I really like the 3:1 ratio. Not that I've ever tried it with a different ratio, mind you, but the 3:1 ratio has never given me a single problem or complaint, which makes it rate #1 in my book. 

The folks over at SummerbeeMeadow recommend a 3:1 ratio for liquid soap-making, and they use to have a posted statement explaining why (and also why their calculator takes into consideration lye purity as a default). It's probably on their site somewhere (maybe buried in their forum) but I don't have the time to search for it right now so that I can give you a link to it, but Carrie Peterson posted a snapshot of it over at the Dish forum a few years back, which I copied/pasted into my notes. Let me go look.....

The Summerbee folks say that they set the water:KOH ratios that they do for liquid soap on their liquid soap calculator based on researching old soaping manuals from the late 1800's/early 1900's. After testing the ratio out, they found it to work so well that they built it into their calculator in 2002 and have been using it ever since. They also make a mention that Catherine Failor uses the same ratio as well. Although I don't have a link to the actual article on the Summerbee site, I saved the link to Carrie's (3bees~1flower's) post of it on the Dish: http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/i...uid-soap-calc-who-seems-to-be-best/?p=2720427


HTH!
IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

"...I am still wondering why...Can you please shed some light on this? ..."

I honestly think it depends a great deal on the preferences of the soap maker -- how one was taught, what habit one is most familiar with. There is no chemistry issue to worry about that I am aware of, except perhaps for the differences in viscosity between an all or mostly coconut oil liquid soap vs. LS made with other oils.

I am definitely a beginner LS maker, but I used a 2:1 water/glycerine to KOH ratio with tolerably good results (edit: I made this LS before this thread got started, or I'd have followed Susie and Irish Lass' instructions instead!) That said, I want to try the 3:1 ratio. It sounds like it will be easier to stir during saponification and easier to dilute.


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> "...I am still wondering why...Can you please shed some light on this? ..."
> 
> I honestly think it depends a great deal on the preferences of the soap maker -- how one was taught, what habit one is most familiar with. There is no chemistry issue to worry about that I am aware of, except perhaps for the differences in viscosity between an all or mostly coconut oil liquid soap vs. LS made with other oils.
> 
> I am definitely a beginner LS maker, but I used a 2:1 water/glycerine to KOH ratio with tolerably good results (edit: I made this LS before this thread got started, or I'd have followed Susie and Irish Lass' instructions instead!) That said, I want to try the 3:1 ratio. It sounds like it will be easier to stir during saponification and easier to dilute.



It is, I had much the same problem as Ellacho.  Adding water fixed it.


----------



## Ellacho

Hi IrishLass, 

A big heartfelt thanks to you - from your GSL tutorial to taking time out to answer all my questions!  I could not have done it without your help ! I am indebted to your kindness.


----------



## Ellacho

DeeAnna said:


> "...I am still wondering why...Can you please shed some light on this? ..."
> 
> I honestly think it depends a great deal on the preferences of the soap maker -- how one was taught, what habit one is most familiar with. There is no chemistry issue to worry about that I am aware of, except perhaps for the differences in viscosity between an all or mostly coconut oil liquid soap vs. LS made with other oils.
> 
> I am definitely a beginner LS maker, but I used a 2:1 water/glycerine to KOH ratio with tolerably good results (edit: I made this LS before this thread got started, or I'd have followed Susie and Irish Lass' instructions instead!) That said, I want to try the 3:1 ratio. It sounds like it will be easier to stir during saponification and easier to dilute.



Hi DeeAnna,
I see!!!  A 2:1 water/KOH ratio in GLS does work on other people. Whew~~that's good to know. I was so confused because it should have been translucent right away as soon as I poured lye/glycerin mixture into heated oils but mine never happened -  until I added more glycerine. 

Well...I am going to stick with 3:1 ratio for my LS!

Thank you for your input as always. I am indebted to your kindness and generosity, especially all those chemistry tutorials !


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## DeeAnna

Thanks, Ellacho. Yep, a 2:1 ratio does work, but a 3:1 might well work better. I'll know more after tonight. 

I'm kind of feeling amused at myself right now -- maybe I should stress out more when I do stuff like LS or HP??? If I don't see a certain stage of texture or appearance, I just think, "Huh, how interesting!" and just motor on. It's things like fragrance, coloring, swirls, and other fancy stuff that give me the heebie jeebies (anxiety) instead.

I'm off to try Irish Lass' LS tonight ... yep, right after I send this post. It's the first time in months that I've had the time, enthusiasm, and energy to soap, so I suppose the soap gremlins will inflict their worst on me and my soap. Wish me luck!


----------



## IrishLass

I'm sure it's going to come out great, DeeAnna! Let us know how it goes!

 IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

Okay, I'm starting to write this at 9:20 p.m. My soap is put to bed to finish saponifying. All my dishes are washed. Everything else is put away. It took under 1 1/2 hours to get my LS batch done from typing in the recipe to end of clean up (with a few bobbles fixed in the middle).  

Wowser -- that was fast ... and FUN! 

I could tell I was rusty and the soap gremlins were waiting for a chance to trip me up, but all went pretty well, considering how long it had been since I last soaped. I followed 3bees and Irish Lass' recipe to the letter -- 10% castor, 25% coconut, 65% olive, 3% superfat, 100% KOH, 3:1 ratio of "water" to KOH.

I did tweak the method in one particular -- I didn't use all glycerin as the "water". Instead I split the "water" up into 1 part water and 2 parts glycerin. To state it another way: 

Water weight = KOH weight
Glycerin weight = 2 x KOH weight

I first dissolved the KOH in the room temperature water -- KOH dissolves quickly and easily in an equal weight of water. I then mixed the 2 parts of room temperature glycerin into the KOH/water. (Yes, the glycerin can be added to the oils instead. Mixing the glycerin with the lye water just makes more sense to me.) I did not heat or cool this mixture -- I just worked with whatever temp the KOH-water mixture heated up to on its own.

This hot KOH-glycerin-water mixture went into my bowl of warmed oils. The temperature of the oils was maybe 100 deg F -- just pleasantly warmish to my hands. Initial soap batter temperature right after everything was mixed together was 158 F (70 C). 

I stirred and stick blended off and on for just under 10 minutes. It took 2-3 minutes to see any temperature rise that is the sign that saponification is seriously starting. The batter went into a grainy applesauce stage about 168 F, morphed into a smooth syrup about 172 F, darkened slightly about 178 F, and turned near-instantly into a sticky, translucent taffy about 185 F (85 C). No extra heat, no double boiler, no crock pot -- the soap batter just did all this on its own with a little stirring to encourage things along.

I stopped mixing at that point after I made myself close my mouth and stop gawking at the transformations. I covered the bowl with plastic food wrap, and put the soap in a warm cat-proof place to finish up. Tomorrow I'll test for zap and dilute some of it.

There were no flying bubbles, but I broke the all-glycerin rule, so I suspected they might not appear. (I'd like to see 'em, though!)

Yay!!!!! Did I say this was seriously fun????


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## DeeAnna

10:30 p.m. update: Soap is about 166 F. That's about a 20 deg F drop from the high of 185 F, so the soap is pretty much saponified. When I saw the temp drop, I got brave and tested for zap -- the soap has utterly no zap at this point.


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## IrishLass

Sweet! That's awesome, DeeAnnna! Thank you for sharing the blow by blow run-down. It sounds like I will have to try out your method!

 Will you be diluting with all water, or part water/part glycerin? I wonder how much the dilution rate will change doing it this way. It's always a bugger for me to figure out a dilution rate that I'm happy with and doesn't give me hassles. 

 I'm excited to hear how the rest of the story come out!

 IrishLass


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## deg195

Thanks IrishLass.  Once essential depot is back open (Tuesday) I will order KOH.


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## DeeAnna

I was planning to dilute per your method -- water and sodium lactate (SL), no glycerin -- but you raise a good point. I can see it working fine both ways -- (a) dilute with water (w or w/o SL) or (b) dilute with water plus the "missing" glycerin. Method (a) would certainly be simpler, but method (b) might have merit. I'll have to experiment, I suppose.


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## Susie

The no SL soap is thin for me.  Have SL on order, so 3-5 days more waiting.


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## Ellacho

So...Here is my first glycerin liquid soap(IrishLass's recipe)!!! Thanks to all, IrishLass, Susie and DeeAnna ! 

Now I am off to make Isg's GLS recipe! Wish me Luck! Thank you Isg!


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## IrishLass

It came out beautiful! :clap: Be prepared to be addicted now!

 IrishLass


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## Ellacho

Thank you so much IrishLass!!!


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## DeeAnna

I was typing an update last night and the power blinked off. Lost everything I'd written. Ugh. So here's a brief re-write:

I did 3 dilutions yesterday. After the dilutions got a night's rest, any slight differences between the dilutions are more clear, so maybe the power blink was a good thing.

What was common to all: I diluted 200 g soap paste with 150 g of water (or water and glycerin) following Irish Lass' basic method of dilution (see Post #9). The diluted soap is a crystal clear liquid almost exactly the same golden yellow as the color of the olive oil is used. When used for handwashing, the soap starts out as a fluffy mass of large bubbles quickly followed by a dense foamy lather. I like the lather in quality and quantity. The diluted soap is thinner in viscosity than Dawn dishwashing detergent, but it is definitely not watery. The feel of a drop of diluted soap on dry skin is almost exactly the same as the skin-feel of Dawn -- thick, syrupy, slightly sticky. 

Dilution #1. Paste + water. Dilutes a bit slower than #2 and #3. The foam/suds that formed from stick blending took forevah! to dissipate. I kicked myself after making this dilution, cuz I realized I had forgotten to add the sodium lactate to the dilution water. Arrrgh!

Dilution #1a. This is dilution #1 fixed by adding 3% sodium lactate (SL) added several hours after the original dilution. The SL fell to the bottom of the diluted soap and formed a pile of unappealing jelly-like goop. When I mixed the goop into the soap, the soap became very slightly more jelly like. If you've ever made chicken stock, it's the difference between the thin watery texture of the starting broth and the subtle gelatinous mouthfeel of a finished stock made with lots of nice bones. Not a huge difference, but still important. 

Dilution #2. Paste + water + 3% SL per Irish Lass' method. The paste softened a wee bit faster than #1, but I can't say the difference was earthshaking. This might be my relative lack of experience that's showing here, so consider the source! What I did see that was really different -- the foam/suds created by stick blending dissipated much quicker with SL than without. After a night's rest, this dilution and #1a are basically the same as far as viscosity, texture on dry skin, and overall lather.

Dilution #3. Paste + water (126 g) + glycerin (24 g) + 3% SL. To explain this dilution -- My paste has more water and less glycerin than Irish Lass' (see Post #76). For this dilution, my dilution "water" included the "missing" glycerin (24 g). I reduced the water by the same amount so the total dilution liquid was still 150 g. The end result is a product similar in composition to Irish Lass' soap. After a night's rest, this dilution makes a slightly less abundant lather with more fluffy bubbles and less dense lather. The viscosity is also lower compared with dilutions 1a and 2 -- it is still syrup-y, but definitely thinner. My hypothesis before I made this dilution was the lather might be less with the added glycerin, but I was expecting the viscosity to be thicker. 

Overall conclusions: I like the method of dissolving KOH directly in room temperature water, then adding the glycerin as I explain in Post #76. Advantage is the KOH dissolves quickly without added heat, but I still get the benefit of quick trace that the glycerin provides. I like the no-added-heat, no-long-cook method of making the soap paste -- it's easy, quick, and fun.


----------



## Susie

I must have mis-measured my water somewhere.  It is entirely possible.  I have SL on the way, so I will try to thicken what I have with some SL before trying again.

I am wondering if this method would work with other recipes.  I might try that.(Have to wait for more KOH anyway.)


----------



## DeeAnna

Grayceworks did a LS using a similar method -- she posted her results in another thread. Here tis: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=45025


----------



## DeeAnna

Note: You'll see she uses less than 2:1 ratio of water/glycerin to KOH, for what it's worth. Now that I've tried both 2:1 and 3:1, I'd say the 3:1 ratio is a little easier to work with both as the paste and to dilute.

edit: I miss Grayce! She's not posted in awhile. I think she had some health troubles and I hope she's doing better. If you read this, Grayce -- hi!!!


----------



## IrishLass

Thank you _so much_ for posting your detailed results, DeeAnna. You are a soaper after my own heart! So many interesting results. This is so exciting to me! I am definitely going to _have_ to try your method! Hopefully, I will be able to do it sometime this coming week.

I'll have to go through Grayce's thread, too. I don't know if I've ever read it. I hope she's doing well, too.

Regarding the sodium lactate- after having done it both ways, with and without- I noticed that my paste softens up for me much quicker/easier with it than without. Of course, people's perceptions of 'quicker' can be relative. It might be that I'm just too impatient! lol 

I _really_ like the sound of how your dilution #2 came out with a 100% water dilution compared to #3 with the water/glycerin dilution. Shoot, if I had the time to do it today, I would (I'm that excited!), but I promised hubby and son pot roast with all the fixins today, so it'll have wait! Aaarrrghhh! lol

IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

Irish Lass -- I really, honestly, truly was not expecting the all-water dilution to be thicker than the water-glycerin dilution. I keep looking at both versions, and, yep, the all-water dilution is really thicker and staying that way. I'll keep an eye on it for a few more days just to be sure. 

As a newbie liquid soaper, I don't have the experience to compare water only vs. water + sodium lactate as you do. I am quite happy to follow your advice on this point. It certainly helps the foam to disappear quicker!


----------



## houseofwool

I would just like to let you people know that you are a bad influence. 

A while ago, I accidentally purchased KOH and it would have been too costly to return it. 

Yesterday, I ordered SL and a bunch glycerin. 

Down the rabbit hole I go!


----------



## Susie

Yeah, I know what you mean.  For some reason, bar soaps just don't inspire me like liquid soaps do.  I got to a good, consistent recipe in bar soaps, and I just have no interest in doing all the fancy swirls and such.  None.(Don't get me wrong!  I think all those swirls, patterns, and fancy stuff are amazing to look at!  I do!  And I really admire you folks with artistic ability!  But for me, meh.  If it lathers and does not make me itch, I am happy with it.)  Liquid soap, on the other hand, is strangely addictive to me...


----------



## Dahila

I am like Susie, I like to see beautiful soap but somehow I prefer the simple ones especially using the herbs.  The liquid one is something I would love to make,  I already copied and printed all Irishlass posts about it and taking to work, there will be time, I hope to go through it.  I am afraid that i will not make it properly.


----------



## coffeetime

I've been following this thread, and I'm planning to print it off and learn to make liquid soap from it as soon as I get caught up on orders and re-stocking. Thanks to all who have contributed their knowledge here. It should make learning to make liquid soap a titch easier!


----------



## DeeAnna

"...I am afraid that i will not make it properly...."

So, okay, do you make CP soap with NaOH? Look at this method of making LS as almost the same as basic CP soapmaking, except you're using KOH not NaOH. And you don't have to prepare a mold or cut the bars as you do with NaOH soap -- you have to dilute the soap paste instead. Diluting can be a bit messy, but is actually easier than cutting bars -- I don't have to worry about mis-cutting! 

As Susie has pointed out, there is a mystique that has grown up around liquid soapmaking that makes people think (including me) that this type of soap is more difficult to make than it really is. Don't let that scare you off.


----------



## IrishLass

Dahila- I agree with DeeAnna-  if you make CP, then I have every confidence that you can do it! 

 I put off making liquid soap for a loooong time. I read Catherine Failor's book and I bought a pound of KOH to back in 2009 with which to make liquid soap, but it sat, untouched, in my closet for 3 whole years! lol  

 My reluctance to give it a go stemmed from a little bit of fear and a lot of how complicated, fussy and 'involved' Failor's method seemed to me. Somewhere in the back of my mind I felt that there just _had_ to be a less fussy way, and then I promptly forgot about it until I ran into some threads on another forum talking about the glycerin method, and then watched Carrie Peterson's video (cue the singing angel voices here), and as sappy as it sounds, hope sprang into my heart. 

 I've found the glycerin method to be so forgiving that I think it would be pretty hard to screw it up- unless one was actively trying really hard to screw it up- but even then, I bet the screwed-up batch could somehow be fixed and made all better (as Ellacho recently found out).

 IrishLass


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> "...I am afraid that i will not make it properly...."
> 
> So, okay, do you make CP soap with NaOH? Look at this method of making LS as almost the same as basic CP soapmaking, except you're using KOH not NaOH. And you don't have to prepare a mold or cut the bars as you do with NaOH soap -- you have to dilute the soap paste instead. Diluting can be a bit messy, but is actually easier than cutting bars -- I don't have to worry about mis-cutting!
> 
> As Susie has pointed out, there is a mystique that has grown up around liquid soapmaking that makes people think (including me) that this type of soap is more difficult to make than it really is. Don't let that scare you off.



^Exactly this!

I understand perfectly well that people who started writing books about making liquid soap back in the old days HAD to use neutralization and sequestering to get the product they wanted consistently.  We have modern lye calculators.  We don't have to.  It is SO much easier now to make liquid soap!  We have it made!  I spent no more time making that liquid soap above than I would have making and cutting CP.  Best of all...I used it that day with no cure time.  And if you have made HP soap, or rebatched soap, you have all the necessary equipment and skills.  You need only 2 additional ingredients:  KOH and glycerin.  And you can go buy glycerin at Walmart these days.


----------



## coffeetime

Does anyone know if the liquid soap calculator in SM3 is any good? I haven't used it yet, and I wasn't sure if I should or use the Summerbee that was recommended earlier.


----------



## Susie

I have never tried SM3, but the SBM Advanced will also allow you to use combination NaOH and KOH, which is useful if you are making cream soaps.  And, as stated before, I like the outcomes better.  I might would try comparing the recipes by running the same recipe through each.


----------



## IrishLass

After re-reading DeeAnna's water/glycerin experiment with this formula, I had an idea pop into my head that I believe I shall try out. Hopefully it won't turn out to be a cockamamie, crazy idea, but it won't be the first time I've tried something nutty! Besides- you never know until you try! I'm going to use an equal amount of water as per KOH in which to dissolve the KOH (to avoid cooking the KOH/glycerin), and then instead of reducing the glycerin amount to compensate for the added water, I'm just going to add the regular, full recipe amount of glycerin to the KOH/water solution before adding it to the oils (this makes about a 20% lye solution instead of a 25% solution). Then later, when I go to dilute what hopefully turns out to be paste, I'll use something in the range of 1 part paste to .62 parts water (plus the sodium lactate), instead of .75 parts water (and sodium lactate). 

 Does that sound too crazy? It's just that I really like the feel of the recipe amount of glycerin in my finished soap using this formula, so I don't want to reduce it. I would add it back in later during dilution, but since DeeAnna reported she had diminished lather by adding the glycerin later at dilution, I'm hoping that adding it up front would help prevent that. 

 Anyway, call me nuts, but that's what I'm going to try. I'll let you know how it goes! 


 IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna

Sounds good to me, Irish Lass. I have been thinking a bit more liquid in the paste might be nice. From my experiments with "superlye" castile, I know there's a sweet spot in soaping as far as the amount of water goes. Too much water, and it gets too difficult to get the soap batter into a stable emulsion. Too little liquid, and the soap gets physically more difficult to make. But what's too much or too little and what's just right?

For liquid soap, it sounds like 2:1 water:KOH ratio works okay, but can be is a little too dry for most folks. A 3:1 is fine for me, but 4:1 might be really nice. I could see how a "looser" paste would ease dilution later on. 

I am also very curious to see how the lather responds to this version. I have been wondering if it's the glycerin in total that's cutting the lather or whether the difference in lathering comes from when the glycerin is added.


----------



## Susie

Wow, we are all thinking the same thing.  But I was going to mix the 1/2 water amount in water to the KOH, then add full amount of glycerin once dissolved.  But, waiting for SL to arrive...


----------



## IrishLass

Well, that was an interesting soaping session! I went ahead and conducted my little experiment this evening and made paste, although it took a little longer for it to reach paste than yours did, DeeAnna. 

 I used the exact amounts of everything as stipulated in 3bees' regular recipe, except that I added 3.4 oz./96g of distilled water (in which to dissolve the KOH), which brought my lye solution to about a 20% concentration instead of the usual 25%. 

 I heated my oils just until they were warm to the touch, then I turned aside to mix up my KOH/water solution.

 Once the KOH was completely dissolved (took all of 1.5 minutes or so, maybe less), I then added my 10.19 oz./288.8g glycerin to the solution.

 Next, I added the KOH/water/glycerin to my pre-warmed oils and intermittently stirred and stickblended to the paste stage, which took a total of 23 minutes for me.

 As I stirred & stick-blended, the batter gradually went from clear to translucent, to apple sauce, to thick, opaque pudding, then (to my surprise) to a thinner creamy/milky consistency with lots of big airy-looking bubbles forming on the surface (but not floating in the air that I could tell). At this point, I turned aside for no more than 5 seconds (if even that) to jot this interesting development down in shorthand on my handy slip of note paper at my side, and when I turned my attention back -BAM!- it was thick, sticky taffy already! I kid you not! I could hardly believe how quickly it went from a stir-able creamy/milky consistency to unmovable terra firma in just a few seconds. That was wild! 

 After extricating my stick-blender from the pit of thick, sticky goo and scraping the excess taffy off of it back into the pot, I covered the pot with 2 layers of plastic wrap, and I'm letting it alone to sit overnight. By the way, it remained an opaque, creamy color when it turned to taffy. If I didn't know any better, I would swear it was a pot of vanilla pudding. lol

 I will dilute tomorrow.


 IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna

Congrats, Irish Lass! 

I don't recall getting the thin creamy/milky stage, but your experience otherwise sounds similar to mine. If I hadn't been stubborn and stayed with my soap, it would have surprised me like that too. Literally seconds to go from a thick but stir-able batter to gooey taffy. 

This also sounds very much like the results that Grayce was getting with her glycerin-water LS experiments (my earlier post has a link to her thread). Bring to trace, more or less, then turn one's back, and ... Voila! ... taffy.


----------



## Susie

IrishLass said:


> As I stirred & stick-blended,_ the batter gradually went from clear to translucent, to apple sauce, to thick, opaque pudding, then (to my surprise) to a thinner creamy/milky consistency with lots of big airy-looking bubbles forming on the surface (but not floating in the air that I could tell). _At this point, I turned aside for no more than 5 seconds (if even that) to jot this interesting development down in shorthand on my handy slip of note paper at my side, and when I turned my attention back -BAM!- it was thick, sticky taffy already! I kid you not! I could hardly believe how quickly it went from a stir-able creamy/milky consistency to unmovable terra firma in just a few seconds. That was wild! IrishLass



That is that "false paste" I was talking about.  And I had the same results.  Had I not been stubbornly waiting for flying bubbles, I would have stopped right then.


----------



## DeeAnna

Huh. I find myself confused by the idea of a false paste. Help?

I think my results were similar to Irish Lass' -- the soap went through clear stages that seemed pretty normal up through vaseline/taffy stage. The only thing I didn't see was the flying bubbles thing. My paste had no zap about an hour after it turned into taffy, and the soap is crystal clear upon dilution. The remainder of the paste is still a taffy-like gel. If I'm understanding the no zap and clarity checks properly, the paste has no excess lye and has little or no excess fat.

Can you help me out, Susie? I'm not sure I understand.... :eh:


----------



## Susie

This part:

"As I stirred & stick-blended, the batter gradually went from clear to translucent, to apple sauce, to thick, opaque pudding, then (to my surprise) to a thinner creamy/milky consistency with lots of big airy-looking bubbles forming on the surface (but not floating in the air that I could tell)."

Mine went through applesauce stage, then pudding, then almost to where the stick blender would not move stage, then thin creamy liquid.  I pulled the stick blender out to come to the computer, then turned around to double check for bubbles, and poof, bubbles and thick paste.


----------



## DeeAnna

Oh, okay, I see the difference now that you're focusing on. Mine didn't thicken-thin-thicken again, at least not in an obvious way. I was paying a lot of attention to the temperature change throughout and was doing a lot of hand stirring with just an occasional SB burst, so it's possible I missed that bit. Next time I'll pay closer attention to that.  Thanks, Susie!


----------



## Susie

No problem.  I just don't want new soapers trying this thinking they are done when it gets thick the first time.


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## FGOriold

Whenever I do part water/part glycerin I get those types of stages.  Applesauce, then thick, chunky potato like, then matte smooth and creamy, then glossy smooth and creamy.


----------



## IrishLass

Seems I'm not alone with the thinning batter thing, then. I had been wondering if it was because I used a 20% lye solution instead of a 25% solution, but maybe not?

 I diluted half of my paste yesterday, using 1 part paste to .62 parts water instead of my usual.75 parts water, due to adding that extra bit of water up front.

_Unfortunately_ I screwed things up by accidentally spilling a bit of my dilution liquid out of my canning jar part-way through the diluting process when I shook the jar upside down in order to dislodge a large chunk of paste that was stubbornly sticking to the inside bottom of the jar (kids, don't do this at home!). I guess I did not have things as tightly battened down as I had thought. :lolno: 

 Thankfully, I had the foresight to have marked down the weights of my jar and contents beforehand and could therefore calculate how much had spilled out so that I could add the missing weight back as water. _But,_ since the spilled water wasn't 100% water (it was mixed with some diluted soap), I had to guestimate at best as to how much water to add back....... and unfortunately I guessed too high, wouldn't you know it (heavy sigh!). :roll:   But I really have no reason to complain too loudly, for although my fully diluted soap is a little thinner than I normally like it,  it's not as thin as water by any means, and it's beautifully clear as a bell (and it feels great, too!). 


 IrishLass


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## deg195

just curious how much scent is added to liquid soap? Barb


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## Susie

Depending on the EO used, I generally stick with the 0.5 oz per pound of oil(not paste) rate.  If it is an EO that I know can be irritating(peppermint, cinnamon, clove, etc), then I drop that to 0.2-0.3 oz PPO rate, often with a non-irritating EO to make up the balance.  This is the same rate I use for bar soaps, so whatever you use normally should be fine.


----------



## Susie

Got the SL in finally.  Added 2% to 4 oz room temp LGS just to test if it would thicken room temp soap.  Gently shook the bottle for about 30 seconds, then walked off to water herbs.  Came back 10 minutes later to thick honey consistency soap.  This stuff is amazing!


----------



## DeeAnna

I have been fragrancing about 1% by weight of the diluted LS. In other words, for 500 g of diluted LS => use 5 g of fragrance. 

For a very strong fragrance (mint, clove, etc.), I'd be cautious and start with 0.5%.

This is probably pretty close to Susie's recommendations, just coming at the amount from a different direction.


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## deg195

thanks


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## soapgirltami

Just to be sure, by SL you mean sodium lactate, right?


Tami


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## IrishLass

I use anywhere from .3% to 1% per weight of my finished soap (depending on FO strength).

 IrishLass


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## Susie

soapgirltami said:


> Just to be sure, by SL you mean sodium lactate, right?
> 
> 
> Tami



Yes, sorry.  It does mean sodium lactate.  I usually try to define things before abbreviating, but I just re-read half this thread before posting that, so it slid right into my train of thought.


----------



## houseofwool

Oh dear gawd is this addictive!  I just made a batch with 400 grams of oils, following Irish Lass's first recipe.  Easy peasy.  I have diluted it and am waiting for it to clear.  

Of course I tested it!  My skin feels slightly tight, but still really soft at the same time (weird, but true).  I had just washed a bunch of stuff with raw batter on it, so that could be part of the issue.

I can't wait to try the pearlized version with added stearic acid.


----------



## Susie

I just made a batch with lard 15 oz, CO 1 oz, and castor oil 1 oz using the half amount of water + full amount of glycerin process.  So, I stick blended/rested 10 minutes, got creamy liquid, then soap on a stick.  Zap tested immediately and no zap.  Amazing.  

Then I diluted.  Took LOTS more water than the other recipe(150% paste weight).  Was hoping for creamy/pearlescent, but it looks perfectly clear right now.


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## Dahila

Irishlass  I have no access to Polysorbate 80 but have to Polysorbate 20, do you think it could do it?


----------



## bodhi

Are you all using vegetable glycerine or petroleum glycerine for this method?


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## Susie

All vegetable.  Did you come up with recipe for the low pH batches?  Or at least some sort of hints I can try to reproduce your results with?  I do not sell my soaps, so I would not be using it for profit.  If you want to PM it to me, that would be fine.


----------



## bodhi

Still looking.  I have notes all over the place.


----------



## IrishLass

Dahila said:


> Irishlass I have no access to Polysorbate 80 but have to Polysorbate 20, do you think it could do it?


 
 Dahila, I've never tried it and I could be wrong, but I don't think the polysorbate 20 will be strong enough. PS20 is mainly used for solubizing light things such as FO's into body washes and sprays, while PS 80 is used for solubizing more heavier things such as carrier oils into the same products. 


 IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

Dahlia -- you could try the PS20, but I agree w Irish Lass that it may not work. It doesn't seem to be nearly as effective as PS80 in the products I've tried it in -- from dispersing essential oils in a blend of water and alcohol to mixing EOs into syrupy liquid soap.


----------



## Dahila

Thank you ladies , then I need to look somewhere else, anyone knows who carry it in Canada?


----------



## deg195

YAHOO! Thanks again IrishLass- here's a pic of my first liquid soap venture...


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## IrishLass

Sweet! :clap:


 IrishLass


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## Susie

Update on lard liquid soap:  my perfectly clear liquid soap is now opaque and gorgeous.


----------



## Susie

Another update on the lard soap:  I diluted some of it for use in a foamer bottle.  All of the opacity settled to the bottom ONLY in the diluted soap.   However, the soap that remains in the foamer bottle, while not the greatest on lather, is really, really conditioning.  It is absolutely amazing.  I will definitely be repeating this recipe with some modifications(a bit more CO, and possibly some sugar) for lather and testing to see if the glycerin step is truly necessary.  I will add a bit of laundry soap paste to help speed trace.


----------



## DeeAnna

BUMMER, Susie! I was hoping you'd get a lovely opaque soap when you diluted. It's good to hear the soap is mild on the skin -- I get the feeling that many LS recipes have problems with being too drying/stripping. Very curious to hear about your next results.....


----------



## Susie

The soap that is not diluted for the foamer is still opaque.  And I put some in a pump bottle to use.  It, too, is wonderful on the conditioning.  Thanks Carolyn!


----------



## FGOriold

Trying to find a way to make an opaque liquid soap that is stable has been one of my greatest challenges.  I find that adjusting my base oils sometimes works, sometimes not depending on the overall cook time and dilution rate. I just finished trying the glycol distearate (EZ Pearl) on two different soaps.  At 3% of the diluted soap weight, it created a really nice opaque soap - however, it does not increase viscosity.  So, I will be watching them (one was on the thin side to start and the other had already been thickened, scented, etc.) to see how stable the final product is over time.


----------



## shaan

Hey all! My first batch failed! Now i think second one has also failed.. haha.. here is the recipe i used- 
Castor oil-30g , coconut oil-75g , olive oil-189g, stearic acid-6g, glycerin-114g, potassium hydroxide-65g.

I slightly warmed the oils,added stearic acid to it..i mixed glycerin and lye and when it was mixed,boiled,transparent, i poured it into oils and mixed it as fast as i can with a whisk. Without any external heat..it was thin,opaque for about 4 minutes,then turned honey like color,then suddenly got thick,shiny..and after about 10 minutes it was too thick and white as in the pic and here i stopped..no flying bubbles..i was dying to see flying tiny bubbles which i saw in my first failed batch.. last time i mixed it in slow cooker,with the cooker on slow setting.. and it passed through all the stages including flying bubbles..but it did not turn into liquid soap.. it was a separate amber color water and white thick part on top which was sticky,produced lather,but skin felt very dry after washing.. this time again i think i did something wrong.. but what? And now what should i do?


----------



## shunt2011

Only a novice LS maker. My batches go through a thick white stage kind of like yours and I just kept cooking it in my slow cooker on low until it went through the other stages about 40 minutes to 1 hour then just turne  it off, cover and let it sit overnight.. I've only made 3-4 batches so far. I'm sure someone with more experience than I will pop in.


----------



## DeeAnna

I'd suggest you try Irish Lass' most excellent recipe given earlier in this thread. Get some experience with a recipe that is known to work. When you enjoy more success, then branch out to using other recipes!

Not seeing all the stages that people describe is NOT a failure. You just didn't see all those stages, that's all. Your soap is most likely fine. It sounds like it went through a definite trace and saponified nicely to a firm paste. The fact that you didn't see flying bubbles and all that is honestly no big deal. Zap test it. If there's no zap, try diluting a small amount to see how it turns out.


----------



## Susie

^What DeeAnna said.

Not all soaps go through each stage visibly.  Some stages are so fast that if you blink, you miss it.  Just zap test, and if no zap, dilute.  The 100% glycerin method goes though what I call false paste before turning to gravy and then to paste.  But I would bet that you have zapless paste already, despite the lack of flying bubbles.


----------



## shaan

I cooked it for an hour in crock pot on low yesterday.. today i added warm water to it with sodium lactate and when it softened after 3-4 hours,i mixed it up with a whisk..this time i added less water..about 65% so it is thick like commercial bady wash. And here it is..its froth is very thick with a few undiluted lumps..it is foaming very well and is not too dry.but when will this foam settle down?its been eight hours. And why my liquid soap turns honey color?last time too,it was the same color.


----------



## Susie

You can spray the foam with rubbing alcohol to dissipate it faster if you like.  

You did not mention if you zap tested it.  

My liquid soaps vary from light amber to dark honey depending on what methods and ingredients I use.  Then sometimes I color the soap, so that affects the color outcome also.  Don't worry so much about the color, it could have been overheated a bit.  It happens.


----------



## shaan

No i did not zap test it..i just diluted some paste in water..it was clear so i added water,and mixed it rapidly with a whisk when the paste was soft..yes i think i over heated it..and overcooked..but atleast it looks like a liquid soap..m happy.. thanx everyone!


----------



## Susie

Shaan-you need to either zap test or phenolpthalien test your paste before dilution.  You can't produce safe liquid soap without some sort of definitive test.  Period.  I know the thought of sticking a bit of lather to your tongue is frightening at first, but it is just not that bad.


----------



## shaan

Ok..i will keep that in mind from next time..this one is already diluted and i think zap test is of no use now.


----------



## Stacy

Dahila said:


> Thank you ladies , then I need to look somewhere else,
> anyone knows who carry it in Canada?



I was going to as about the 20 too, but you got there first!

If you still need it:

https://www.voyageursoapandcandle.com/Polysorbate_80_p/62488.htm


----------



## Dahila

thank you Stacy, I ordered and also the BMTS-50 and it will be shipped on Monday What an irony.  For the shipping charges from saffire blue I pay like 15 backs and they are 50 km from my house.  For shipping from Vancouver which is across the country is 10.99 ) They have supplies a bit more expensive but they have it
I checked a month ago and they were out of it, they had only 20.  I have 250 ml of 20, what the heck I am going to use it for?


----------



## shaan

I have tried a fourth batch, using this recipe-
Coconut oil-30%
Canola oil-20%
Castor oil-10%
Olive oil-30%
Sunflower oil-10%
This fourth time too i did not see any flying bubbles. 
I mix lye with glycerin..bring to boil..add it to warm oils...keep mixing with whisk.. it turns to slightly opaque in about 5 mins.then transparent again with some bubbles on top and then thick suddenly in a paste form..i always get stuck at this point..i did zap test it was good..then i think no flying bubbles and not transparent honey like..very sticky..so i cook more..then when i use it to wash my hair,it does not rinse the oil in my hair well..even after using it twice or thrice..but when i use it on body,its drying with no foam..where am i going wrong?


----------



## Soap Techniques

Susie said:


> Got the SL in finally. Added 2% to 4 oz room temp LGS just to test if it would thicken room temp soap. Gently shook the bottle for about 30 seconds, then walked off to water herbs. Came back 10 minutes later to thick honey consistency soap. This stuff is amazing!



*Susie, DeeAnna*, wouldn't the addition of sodium lactate to a potassium soap _produce the sodium soap_ and potassium lactate? :?:
I'm not sure but I think that sodium ions (Na+), regardless of whether they come from table salt, or SL, or NaOH, will replace the potassium ions (K+), at least partially, thus making the soap thicker. Am I mistaken?


----------



## Susie

I'm going to have to defer that to our resident chemistry guru, DeeAnna.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...wouldn't the addition of sodium lactate to a potassium soap produce the sodium soap and potassium lactate..."

Table salt (NaCl) is the sodium salt of hydrochloric acid (HCl), a strong acid, and sodium hydroxide, a strong alkali. Because of its fire-and-brimstone parents, table salt is highly ionic, meaning it dissociates quickly and completely into sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-) ions when dissolved in water.

Sodium lactate is the sodium salt of lactic acid, a weak acid, and sodium hydroxide, a strong akali. Because of its weak acid daddy, sodium lactate is a milder mannered salt than table salt. Only some sodium lactate dissociates (breaks apart) into sodium ions and lactate ions when it's dissolved in water. 

A chemist's shorthand way of explaining this difference between different salts is the word "buffer". Sodium lactate is a buffer. Table salt is not a buffer. (For the record, soap is a potassium (K) or sodium (Na) salt, and it also is a buffer.)

I realize that we're not exactly dissolving either salt in just water, but the basic principles still apply if soap is added to the system. The degree of substitution depends on the ionic nature of the particular sodium salt. The more ionic a sodium salt is, the more it will break apart, and the more substitution you'll see when this salt is mixed with a potassium soap. The more the salt does not break apart -- in other words, if it acts more as a buffer -- the less substitution you'll see.

The bottom line is there might be some substitution of Na for the K in liquid soap if you added sodium lactate to the LS, but the substitution will be weaker than if you added table salt, all other things being equal.


----------



## IrishLass

shaan said:


> I have tried a fourth batch, using this recipe-
> Coconut oil-30%
> Canola oil-20%
> Castor oil-10%
> Olive oil-30%
> Sunflower oil-10%
> This fourth time too i did not see any flying bubbles.
> I mix lye with glycerin..bring to boil..add it to warm oils...keep mixing with whisk.. it turns to slightly opaque in about 5 mins.then transparent again with some bubbles on top and *then thick suddenly in a paste form..i always get stuck at this point..i did zap test it was good..then i think no flying bubbles and not transparent honey like..very sticky..so i cook more..then when i use it to wash my hair,it does not rinse the oil in my hair well..even after using it twice or thrice..but when i use it on body,its drying with no foam..where am i going wrong?*



Shaan, don't worry if you haven't seen flying bubbles. Although flying bubbles are a very good visible sign of saponification taking place, there are other signs to show that saponification is taking place when no flying bubbles are present. The most obvious of those signs is when the mixture turns into thick, sticky paste. 

You can be sure that things are proceeding along just fine when your soap suddenly becomes thick paste, even if you haven't noticed any flying bubbles.

And don't worry if the paste is not transparent honey. It's perfectly okay if it's more whitish and opaque. That happens sometimes, and it's nothing to be concerned about. If my own experience is anything to go by, it will become more transparent when diluted. 

Once it has reached the paste stage and has tested negative for 'zap', there's no need to cook the soap any further, unless you are going to add water to the paste in order to dilute it into liquid soap form. 

Did you dilute the paste with water into liquid soap form before using it on your hair?


IrishLass


----------



## Soap Techniques

DeeAnna said:


> The bottom line is there might be some substitution of Na for the K in liquid soap if you added sodium lactate to the LS, but the substitution will be weaker than if you added table salt, all other things being equal.



Thank you for the explanation, DeeAnna!


----------



## Susie

I don't really like using my liquid soap as shampoo.  I just find it difficult to perfect and it seems to clean the hair too much and the scalp not enough(picky, aren't I?).  I much prefer using shampoo bars.  But off the top of my head on your recipe, I would ask what your superfat is, and you need to choose ONE use for that soap, as shampoo will need a different recipe than liquid hand soap.


----------



## shaan

Yes IrishLass, i diluted with 75% water..i used your recipe of 65% olive, 25% coconut, 10% castor.. and the above mentioned recipe..i have to use a lot of these liquid soaps to make my hair clean..

Susie, i apply oil at night, then wash it the next morning.. or else my hair would get too dry,straw like..i used shampoo bar,it was again too drying..i liked the liquid soap more..i got the same response from my family members who used both bar and liquid soap.. now if i want to make a liquid shampoo that can clean well with less soap used, what should i do? I used 3% superfat in both, used glycerin method..To make it more cleansing, yet not stripping off natural oils, i increased the amount of coconut oil in recipe, but nothing much happened.. i dont want to use sulphates.. i used a little DL panthenol as well.


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## aprilprichard

IrishLass said:


> I've been using the glycerin method to make my liquid soap for 2 years now and I really love it. I have 2 different formulas that I use and I dilute them in such a way that they both come out nice and thick (as thick as honey). The cool thing with the glycerin method (from what I've been told from those that use Failor's method) is that you have better control over the thickness of your finished soap with the glycerin method. I've never used Failor's method, but I can vouch that it's not hard at all to get a thick liquid soap with the glycerin method. Over at the Dish forum they have a _looooooong_ glycerin liquid soap thread (it's a huge thread with a bazillion pages....well, maybe not a gazillion, but close enough! lol), and that's where I learned how to make it.
> 
> I make mine differently than Susie. I dissolve my lye in glycerin. Basically, I mix the KOH and glycerin when they are both at room temp, bring them to a boil together, and simmer and stir until all the lye is dissolved and all is clear. It takes less than 10 minutes for me. Some people heat the glycerin before adding the KOH, but that can cause sputtering and hissing, so that's why I do it the way I do (which goes very smoothly for me). Then I dump the lye/glycerin solution into my pre-melted oils and whisk the mixture (off heat) until I see tiny little bubbles flying/floating up in the air around my head (about 10 to 12 minutes max). Then I cover (still off heat) and leave it alone to let it do it's thing while I busy myself with other things. Usually, in about 6 hours, it's paste. Then I dilute with only enough water as needed to get it to the thickness I like. That's just a bare-bones outline of my procedure, but I can be more detailed if you wish.
> 
> 
> IrishLass




When you cover and leave alone to do its thing, is the soap off heat at that point?  Cold process method? I'm trying to learn as much as possible before I try LS. I had seen some say Failors method isn't the easiest, but I bought her book anyway





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## IrishLass

Hi April!

 I leave it alone completely off the heat.

 IrishLass


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## Susie

aprilprichard said:


> When you cover and leave alone to do its thing, is the soap off heat at that point?  Cold process method? I'm trying to learn as much as possible before I try LS. I had seen some say Failors method isn't the easiest, but I bought her book anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Soap Making Forum App....love this app!



I have her book also.  Her methods are why I went looking for an easier way to make soap.  But, I did use her oils and ran them through a lye calculator for an appropriate amount of KOH and water.  Some of her recipes are great, just not all the neutralization and stuff we can avoid by using a good lye calculator with a superfat of 0-3%.


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## CookbookChef

Hello, I was reading thru some of the Liquid Soap Threads on this forum, and learned allot. I was able to fully successfully make liquid soap by following Irishlass  and her directions. I diluted my soap at .75%. Thank you for that Irishlass. Ok, saying that, I started with 29 Ounces of Soap paste so .75% Distilled water added to the soap paste was 21.75 ounces of water added or in grams is (616 Grams). 

I copied the following "soap math" from the chicken in the road forum because I needed it to help out with what I write below this soap math statement.

Soap Math
If you have trouble with all this soapy math (I do), here’s a tip. If you want to figure ounces for anything that’s in pounds, change the pounds to ounces (multiply the pounds by 16). To find a percent of anything, move the decimal two places to the left and multiply it. 2% = .02. Pounds times 16 times the percent (in a decimal). For example, say you want to fragrance six pounds of liquid soap at two percent. What is two percent of six pounds? 6 times 16 equals 96, and 96 times .02 equals 1.92 ounces. You’d add 2 ounces of fragrance.

So, in my first statement above where I talk about diluting the IrishLass recipe and I did this at .75%, I guess that was really 75%...right? Because I found out thru soap math research, that to find the percentage for soapy math, I move the decimal point two places to the left. I do believe that Irishlass had already done this and when she said dilute the soap paste weight by .75%, I do believe she moved the decimal point over to the left already. I could be wrong, but at .75%, that makes a lovely liquid soap, that is thick like honey. Where as if I would of taken the .75% and moved the decimal point two places to the left, that would mean.0075% and that would only mean adding to my 29 ounces of soap paste .21 ounces of water or only a total of 6 Grams. Ya, so, that doesn't sound right at all. So, I am assuming that Irishlass meant dilute the soap paste at 75% and the .75% she noted is correct. If I am wrong please help me to understand better by informing me, if you would be so kind 

So, when people talk about adding one part paste to one part water, that would be 100% Dilution? 
And when soaping101.com Video  for making liquid soap, she states we should weigh the soap paste and times it by 3 to know how much water to add. That then would be 300% Dilution, right?

I just want to make sure I am getting this right as SOME places online state to dilute at 30% or 40% and I wanted to understand exactly what that ment. But it seems to me, that the .75% or (75%) that Irishlass stated to use, would be the minimum somone would even really ever go...otherwise, I think it would be just paste, and not a liquid. Just saying. I was reading on a forum today that talked about doing a dilution rate between 20% to 40% and this just did not make sence to me at all. I am refering to  the chicken in the road forum on diluting liquid soap:
http://chickensintheroad.com/house/crafts/how-to-make-liquid-soap/#comment-167896

She states the following: 
"Dilution:
Use soft or distilled water to dilute your paste. Here is a dilution table showing percent of soap and percent of water added per pound of paste.
For 15 percent soap — 48 ounces water (3 pounds) added per pound of paste
20 percent — 32 ounces (2 pounds)
25 percent — 22 ounces (1 pound 6 ounces)
30 percent — 16 ounces (1 pound)
35 percent — 12 ounces
40 percent — 9 ounces
Soaps made from 100 percent coconut oil will dilute at 40 percent (though that would be a very drying soap). You will have a hard time getting a recipe with any significant amount of olive oil to dilute at anything other than 20 percent. I started out trying all of my recipes at 30 percent. If a soap doesn’t dilute in a reasonable period of time (several hours) then you’re probably at the wrong dilution rate. A soap that isn’t going to dilute at your current dilution rate will start forming a layer on top. No matter how many times you break it up, it will keep layering."

Maybe I was reading he page wrong, but it just did not make sense to me. She has percentages listed that just seem not right. To me, I take the soap paste, and dilute it with a certain percentage of water, but it would seem like she takes water, and concentrates it with a certain percentage of soap paste..I could be wrong, It was very hard for me to understand exactly what she was saying anyway. 
Ok, well at least I THINK I Understand what Irishlass stated, that I should start with a dilution of .75% which I THINK she meant a dilution rate of 75% and then she had already done the soap math for us, and so we would not have to move the decimal two places to the left. That is how I understood her statement to be. Again, If this is wrong, please let me know. As you can see, I am truly trying to understand all of this and get it right.
Thank you, CookbookChef


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## Susie

Please take a deep breath.  Again.  I can help you skip all of that.  

Every soap I have ever made has taken a bit different dilution.  Writing down the dilution rate of the previous batch only gives you a place to start.  Any time I make a different recipe, I start with half the paste weight in water.  Sometimes this is all I need.  Sometimes I need as high as a 1:1.5 ratio. But each batch seems to need something different.

It is true that coconut oil soaps take less water to dilute than olive oil.  I think the percentages on CITR are incorrect(as are the dilution rates on SBM calculator.)  I have yet to have any soap follow those "rules".  So I stopped trying to make them work for me.  I don't want my soap to be diluted with any more water than it needs to dilute, and that is what was happening over and over with me trying to follow the "rules".  Hand made liquid soap is quite thin enough without adding unnecessary water.  

My rule of thumb is any new recipe gets started with half the paste weight in water and then add water in smaller amounts until I get down to just a small glob or two.  I do write down the dilution amount on the recipe sheet to refer to in the future.  Saves lots of time.


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## DeeAnna

It's either 75% or 0.75. Either one means the same thing.

Do not combine the decimal number and the percentage number together and write 0.75% when you mean 75% or 0.75. The value 0.75% means an entirely different thing than 75% or 0.75.

***

Susie has a very good method for diluting LS, and I encourage you to use it. Then when you write the dilution down in your notes so you know where to begin if you make that recipe again, I suggest you write the dilution down using words similar to any one of these 3 examples:

"For every 10 ounces of soap paste, add 7.5 ounces of water."
Or
"For every 1 ounce of soap paste, add 0.75 ounces of water."
Or
"Dilute 1 part paste with 0.75 parts water."

Or something like that. Every sentence means the same thing -- pick the one that makes the most sense. You would replace the 7.5 or 0.75 numbers with the actual amount of water you used to dilute the paste for your particular recipe.

This gets you away from ratios and percentages and the confusion they cause. I'm comfortable with math, and even I get really confused when people write about LS dilution, because there are many ways to say the same thing. And many ways to say it incorrectly, which is worse!


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## IrishLass

Hi Cookbook Chef!

I hope I don't cause you more confusion, but bear with me. While I do use 1 part paste to .75 parts water for this particular formula, it's not what one would call a 75% dilution. It's actually a 57% dilution, believe it or not. Like I said, bear with me. lol

All that I am doing with the .75 or the 75% figure is creating a "dilution ratio", which is actually different than creating a "dilution percent". 

Basically, I'm weighing the amount of my paste that I want to dilute, and adding 25% less water to it. In order to do that, I first consider the paste to be the equivalent of 100% (or 1 part) and then I add 25% less water in weight as per paste to it. [100% (1 part) paste weight minus 25% = 75% or .75 parts water in weight to add], i.e., a ratio of 1 part paste to .75 parts water. 

Okay, so let's say I've chosen how much paste I want to dilute. In order to get the proper water weight to add to dilute it, I multiply the paste weight by .75, or if you have a calculator, you can move the decimal point over twice to the right and multiply the paste weight by 75%. That will give me 25% less water in weight than paste (i.e., a ratio of 1 part paste to .75 parts water), which is a perfect ratio for this particular formula, as you and I have found to our mutual delight.

Now, in order to create a "dilution percent" (as opposed to a "dilution ratio"), we need to convert the ratio of "1 part paste to .75 part water" into a percent. In order to do that, we will first need to add up the paste weight and the water weight together. Lets say we have 4 oz. of paste and 3 oz. of water (which happens to be a correct 1 to .75 ratio amount for this formula). So, 4 + 3 = 7 oz. , which means our diluted soap will equal a total of 7 oz.

Now, in order to come up with the correct "dilution percent" out of the above equation, we divide the paste weight by the total weight of the diluted soap: 4 divided by 7 = .57. To convert .57 to a percent we just move the decimal over two places to the right and add a % sign, i.e., 57%. So, this formula's dilution rate in terms of percent is 57%.




> So, when people talk about adding one part paste to one part water, that would be 100% Dilution?


 Nope, that would actually be a 50% dilution



> And when soaping101.com Video for making liquid soap, she states we should weigh the soap paste and times it by 3 to know how much water to add. That then would be 300% Dilution, right?


 Nope, that would actually be a 25% dilution if I did the math right.

Here is a great water calculator that you can use for figuring out your dilutions in terms of percent:

http://www.rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/watercalc.php

Although the calculator is geared for making lye solutions, it works for any kind of solution/dilution you are making. I like it a lot because it lets you calculate 2 different ways depending on your known variables.


I'm with you, Chef- I'm not sure that I agree at all with the dilution percents that that came from Chickens in the Road. Using the math that I used above, and also the RiverCity Water calculator, I get totally different percents from what Chickens came up with. By the way, the math I used above gives me the same sums/results as the River City water calculator.

As far as dilution rates go for different soap formulas, it's all a matter of preference. There are no 'set-in-stone' dilution rates, only general guidelines. You can add as much or as little water as you want in order to get the consistency you like, although you'll definitely want to make sure add _enough_ water to so that no globs remain. Once you've figured that amount out, you can add as much water as you want, depending on how thin/thick you want your soap to be.

 Hopefully, I explained things well enough.  Please let me know if something is not totally clear.

 IrishLass


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## CookbookChef

IrishLass, You have explained things wonderfully to me and I appreciate your help. I DO understand now and I do believe i have not Got It!! Yes, I feel welcome by you and by your graceful and caring way, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart since you have taken the time to Truly help me, and help others on a very difficult item to make. But you have helped turn something complicated for me into something simple. I will never go back to store bought liquid soap EVER AGAIN! I wish I knew you and wish you were my neighbor. I would of loved to send you a gift for  taking care of me the way you have, from the start. I appreciate you and your kindness. Thank you Irishlass, you have changed my life forever!! Irishlass you are a very kind and helpful person indeed XXOO

ps, thank you to the OTHERS who have tried to help me. I know that they meant well, and I appreciate their attempt to help me, even if I did not understand their help. Thank you for trying, I appreciate that. I wanted to acknowledge YOUR help as well. Thank you. This thread has been a whole bunch of ppl who have tried to help one another be successful, and I wanted to extend my thanks for that


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## Susie

I would truly like to know whether you tried my recipe and what happened when you tried it.  I am not going to be defensive.  I have room for improvement.  Some of which might be the recipes, some might be the inadequacy of the explanation.  And it might just be that your brain works different than mine, so I am just not hitting what you need to know to get it.  So, it would really help for me to know this.  I am horribad in math, so I am no help there, tis true.


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## CookbookChef

Hi Susie, I re wrote my last post. Writing a book in the middle of the night wasn't the best thing after all. So, I re wrote my post and submitted that. I will look at my notes on all of my recipes and will see how, or if their is something I could say about your recipe and post back. Probably sometime after the weekend. Thanks Susie for your help. oh, and ps...not sure If I used your exact recipe...I have done so many this last month, but I do believe I did. I will look up all my notes and recipes that I saved and let you know either way my problems or my victory on it. But ya, just so you know, and everybody knows, I have NOW landed in a good spot in liquid soap making. Irishlass and her recipe is my END ....lol, becuase for me, it works so beautifully each time I use it. Saying that, for FUN..I might still try others ppls recipes, but for me....the best recipe  yet has been Irishlass and her no cook method. Just heat lye/glycerin till clear, then add to heated oils, turn off crock pot, blend until a bubble storm surrounds my head/room, Cover, leave alone for several hours and walla, DONE!! Dilute and go on with life. Simple, and works every time


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## Susie

Glad you found something that works!  That is, by far, the most important thing!  Like I said, I really do need constructive criticism on some things.  I feel I learn more from when things don't click with someone than when they do.


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## IrishLass

Thank you for your very kind words, Chef. I'm just glad to have been able to be of help.  

 It's funny how differently each of our individual minds work. For example, my hubby- who oftentimes reminds me of the very analytical/logical Mr. Spock or Data from Star Trek- can try to explain something to me 5 different ways and it'll all go over my head, but then someone else comes along and says the same thing in a slightly different way, and bam- it finally clicks. lol  

 That's why I love this forum. We have so many wonderful, intelligent people here willing to share their soaping wisdom that if one person's explanation doesn't click, there's a very good chance that somebody else's will. 

 I love it when 'click' happens. 


 IrishLass


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## CookbookChef

Oh, and I dont know why, and it doesnt much matter now that I DO have a recipe that works for me, but on ALL the other recipes I never did get those flying bubbles around my head except for YOUR recipe, Miss Irishlass!! Your recipe always has my kitchen full of bubbles It makes me feel like I am in a dream. The only other recipe that gave me just a few flying bubbles was the soaping101.com liquid soap recipe. I had to be over that pot all day long...I think it was around 7 hours before that recipe had cooked, and I had to baby sit it all day long giving it a stir every 20 to 30 minutes! Your recipe I get the flying bubbles almost right away, and I blend it for just a minute or two after the flying bubbles for good measure, and then thats it, I lid the crock pot and walk away...ya, its so good to have it all work out for me now


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## aprilprichard

IrishLass said:


> Hi April!
> 
> I leave it alone completely off the heat.
> 
> IrishLass




Thank you IrishLass!  I thought that was what you did but wanted to make sure!  Thank you so much for your postings here. Failors book had completely intimidated me, but you've given a much simpler method and I can't wait to try it!  I promised my gf, who hates bar soap, that I would make liquid soap for her for Christmas!  Running out of time!!!! 


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## aprilprichard

How does everyone store their undiluted paste?  Fridge?


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## Susie

I store mine in the refrigerator, NOT because it needs to be stored there to preserve it in any way.  I have a horrible memory, and I lost a batch of soap paste when I stored it elsewhere.  I did later find it and use it, and it was just fine(a year later), but it needs to live somewhere I will see it on a regular basis to not forget where I put it.  My right hand crisper drawer serves the purpose well.


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## IrishLass

I store mine in the fridge, too, in gallon-sized ZipLoc baggies.

 IrishLass


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## CookbookChef

I Do have a new question Irishlass, I have been making your Glycerin Liquid Soap to GREAT Success!! But my question would be this:

What if I happen to run our of Glycerin (like I just did) and dont want to run to the store for MORE Glycerin. Am I able to do your recipe without the Glycerin?

Now that I have asked my question, I suspect that the answer would be yes, but with the following considerations. Yes, I don't have to use glycerin, I could use distilled water, but that my time involved would be considerably more, correct? To get to that stage where I have flying bubbles may take awhile and the final end product will be considerably different in Look and Feel. Right?

If it is true, that I can use the water, am I still able to apply your QUICK version of making the soap, meaning same rules apply? 

I just know that it could be a few days before I get some Glycerin again as I live in the Country and we don't take trips to town often enough for all my glycerin needs. I know when I make your glycerin recipe, my soap feels very luxury! and if I use the water instead, that I might be also loosing that Luxury feeling I get with the Glycerin soap. But, I have a stir in me to make the liquid soap, just out of Glycerin. And yes, I  can not Stand the old way of making liquid soap, where I have to check it and stir it every 20 minutes. When I make it that way, it takes upwards to 7 hours of staying by my crock, and its tiresome. I just LOVE your recipe and now have made it several times to great success. so, just wondering here, can I apply your rules, as in get the flying bubbles, lid it, and forget it??? Oh please say it is so


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## CookbookChef

Susie said:


> I would truly like to know whether you tried my recipe and what happened when you tried it.  I am not going to be defensive.  I have room for improvement.  Some of which might be the recipes, some might be the inadequacy of the explanation.  And it might just be that your brain works different than mine, so I am just not hitting what you need to know to get it.  So, it would really help for me to know this.  I am horribad in math, so I am no help there, tis true.



I guess I did NOT try your recipe Susie...I thought I did, but looking thru, I did not. I doesn't mean that I cant make it tho, If I do, I shall post back how it turned out. I have tried so many, with so many fails...doesnt mean yours is bad tho, ok? it means that I just haven't tried it yet. Maybe its fantastic!! So, ya, I will note back here if I do indeed make it sometime. SMILES
Maybe others have tried it?


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## IrishLass

Hi Chef!

I have not tried making the recipe with _only_ water, so I can't say for sure how such a batch would turn out, but if you really have an itch to make the formula without waiting for your glycerin, you may just have to try conducting the experiment for us- and then let us know how it goes in this thread, which, by the way, has turned into an awesome pioneering-type thread with lots of different experiments being conducted! I love it!

Having said that, if you go back and take a look at post #103 in this thread, you'll see where I conducted an experiment with this recipe by using part water and part glycerin to make the paste, instead of using all-glycerin as I normally do. And in post #111, I report my results from the experiment. I think I am actually going to make this formula that way from now on because it was so much easier and quicker to dissolve the KOH in water.


IrishLass


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## pdeshpan

Today, I made first liquid soap by looking into the soaping 101 video. Used sunflower oil instead of olive oil. 3oz koh, 6oz glycerin, 13oz sunflower oil, 1.5oz castor oil and 1.5 oz coconut oil. The koh mixed in the glycerin was not melted fully when I mixed in the hot oil. In previous one post Irishlass had described that we just need to wait for 1-6 hours to fully saponify. I have kept the mixture on double boiler for 1.5 hours and still my water test is cloudy little bit. 
I have some questions

When should I add the water for distillation? 
How much water should I add? 
Soap calc says I should add 15.5 grams of Fragrance oil. How much should I add? Should I add after dilution? If that is the case, when will that 15.5 grams of fragrance oil saponify?


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## Susie

It probably will never be clear.  Close as I can figure it, you used 13% superfat.  Did you run the recipe through Soapcalc with the changed oils, and the lye changed to KOH and 90% purity checked?  If so, what superfat did you use?

Fragrance oils do not saponify.

(Can anyone give me a stupid easy way to copy a Soapcalc page to show here?)


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## pdeshpan

I have not added any superfat. On the PH testing strips it measures 10. I just followed the soapcalc 101 video.


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## Susie

But you changed the oils.  Each oil has its own saponification value that is different than other oils.  The saponification value is how many grams of lye(KOH or NaOH) you need to change one gram of oil to soap.  When you change an oil, you must recalculate.

For example:

Olive oil(which should have been 13 oz) has a KOH SAP value of 0.188

Sunflower oil has a KOH SAP value of 0.192

So, it takes more KOH to saponify Sunflower Oil than Olive oil.  This is why we use lye calculators.

Unless you bought the plastic lab quality pH strips, you can't trust them.


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## pdeshpan

I realize my mistake now. Can I add more lye to the gel now and repair it? One more question, if I use soapcalc then can I substitute glycerin to water? Soapcalc.net does not talk about Glycerin.


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## DeeAnna

The concepts of superfat and lye discount are very important in soaping. If you are not familiar with these terms and how to use them, you may want to do more studying before your next batch.

As far as subbing sunflower for olive, the sap values for these two oils are about the same. It was a happy accident that blindly substituting one for the other ended up not changing the lye amount. You got away with it ... this time! Next time, please take Susie's advice -- always use a soap calculator to double check how much lye is needed for the oils you are really going to use.

Susie is also right about the superfat being much too high -- about 15%. This means the soap will remain cloudy or even separate. The superfat needs to be 3% or less at the proper KOH purity. 

And that brings me to my next point --

The recipe used in the Soaping 101 video is in error -- it is based on using KOH at 100% purity. KOH is not usually 100% pure -- most likely the KOH you used was more like 90% pure. This is another reason to always double check every recipe before making soap with it -- we all make mistakes sometimes.

Last but not least, never add undissolved lye particles to oils when making soap. Keep stirring until the particles are fully dissolved. If you simply cannot get all of the particles dissolved, then remove the particles with a stainless steel (not aluminum) strainer when you pour the lye to the oils. Don't just pour everything into the batter.


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## DeeAnna

"...Can I add more lye to the gel now and repair it?..."

Yes, you can add more lye, but do so carefully and slowly. You can estimate the amount of lye needed -- you know how much lye you actually used. Recalculate the recipe with 3% superfat, 90% KOH purity and find out the amount of lye you should have used. 

Lye to add = (Lye you should have used) - (Lye you actually used)

Dissolve the lye you want to add in 3 to 4 times the amount of water as KOH. An exact amount of water is not super important -- just get it close.

Example:
You want to add 12 g KOH. Dissolve the lye in 36 to 48 g of water.

Add about half the lye solution to the soap paste. Stir the lye into the paste thoroughly. You may need to heat the paste gently so it becomes softer and easier to stir. Wear your usual safety gear, including eye protection -- stirring the lye solution into soap paste may splash a bit more than you might expect.

Allow the KOH time to react with the excess fats -- let it sit overnight if you have the patience. See what the soap looks like -- is there still separation? If there is, add about half of the remaining lye solution to the soap. Stir well, let sit, see what happens. If needed, add the last bit of lye solution and repeat.

"...if I use soapcalc then can I substitute glycerin to water?..."

Yes, you can. Soapcalc does not care what you use for the "water" in a soap recipe. You can do one of several things:

Use 100% water. The KOH will dissolve in water easily. The recipe will be slow to trace.
Use 100% glycerin. The KOH will be difficult to dissolve. The recipe will trace and saponify quickly.
Use 1/2 water and 1/2 glycerin. Dissolve the KOH in the water. It will dissolve easily. When the KOH is fully dissolved, add the glycerin. The recipe will trace quickly.
Use some other proportion of water and glycerin such as 1/3 water and 2/3 glycerin, etc.  Dissolve the KOH in the water. When the KOH is fully dissolved, add the glycerin. The recipe will trace quickly.

My vote is for a mixture of water and glycerin, because I think you get the best of both worlds -- the KOH dissolves easily and the soap traces quickly. I have two tips if you want to try this:

1. To properly dissolve the KOH, use at least as much water as KOH. If you use more water, that's fine, but I would not use less. 

2. To make the soap paste easier to work with, the total amount of Water + Glycerin should be 3 to 4 times the KOH weight. You can use less than that -- some recipes call for only 2 times the KOH weight -- but a paste this dry can be hard to stir and dilute.

Example: 
A recipe calls for 125 g of KOH. 
You choose to use 125 g of water to dissolve the KOH. 
You also choose to use 3 times the KOH as your total liquid, so:
Total liquid = 3 x 125 g = 375 g
Glycerin = 375 - 125 = 250 g

I hope this helps!


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## JuneP

*Liquid soap*

I am super new to soap making, so I probably won't be making a liquid soap just yet since I don't have the proper ingredients, and I've still got more CP soaps to make. But, I've saved all your wonderful recipes and instructions, so I can make them in the future.

Thanks so much for such generous sharing. Love our members!

June


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## Dahila

I had not ask the question yet,  I was thinking how to do it not to use only glycerin, and I already got the answer.  Thank you so much DeeAnna


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## pdeshpan

Deanna, 

Thanks a lot for the wonderful post. All my questions have been answered.


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## soapgirltami

My soaper friends , I need to start a new thread as suggested by several, regarding how to make a successful liquid bubble bath. My issue is, I'm unable to open a new topic, for some reason. Catherine Failor has several recipes, I've tried a couple, I'll try the pure coconut oil one next. So far, nice big bubbles, but nothing sustainable without using a detergent as an additive. So I'm hoping someone would be willing to start a thread for me


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## DeeAnna

Looks like your new thread is going fine, Tami -- http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=50888


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## Paintguru

Just got my first batch off the stove.  I must admit, the transitions that occur while you stir are really cool, especially the Lawrence Welk stage!


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## soapgirltami

And very fun! The whole process becomes addictive. But in a good way


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## CookbookChef

IrishLass said:


> Hi Chef!
> 
> I have not tried making the recipe with _only_ water, so I can't say for sure how such a batch would turn out, but if you really have an itch to make the formula without waiting for your glycerin, you may just have to try conducting the experiment for us- and then let us know how it goes in this thread, which, by the way, has turned into an awesome pioneering-type thread with lots of different experiments being conducted! I love it!
> 
> Having said that, if you go back and take a look at post #103 in this thread, you'll see where I conducted an experiment with this recipe by using part water and part glycerin to make the paste, instead of using all-glycerin as I normally do. And in post #111, I report my results from the experiment. I think I am actually going to make this formula that way from now on because it was so much easier and quicker to dissolve the KOH in water.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



OK THANKS Irishlass!! I went back and reviewed the posts that you refer to. I DO believe that YES, I will soon go right ahead and do that experiment SOON! I will try making the liquid soap with just water, and not glycerin, and then write here how it all works out. 
Yes, I agree that this thread has become a great foundation asset to anyone who would be interested in making Liquid Soap.

I seem to be full of NEW questions. First, let me say what I did, and then I will ask if this was ok....lol

I made YOUR soap(Irishlass), like I have been doing for sometime now with great success each and every time:
To recap, I used the following

Castor Oil 10.00%
Olive Oil   65.00%
Coconut Oil (76 Degree Kind) 25.00%

Used a 3% Superfat and ran everything thru the Summer Bee Meadow Advanced Soap Calculator.

Mixed the Lye (Potassium Hydroxide) with Glycerin Only and cooked to clear.

I had my oils already warmed in a near by crock pot. I added my Cooked to Clear Lye Glycerin Mixture to the warmed oils. I used a stick blender to wiz until I had dancing bubbles all around the room that flew up from the crock pot...that only took about 7 minutes. Then I TURNED OFF the crock pot, placed a lid on it, and walked away. 2 to 7 hours later it turns into paste that I do the ZAP test on. If no zap, I will dilute and bottle. 
Okay, now here is where I tried changing things....The first several times diluting the soap paste I have used Distilled Water. The last couple of times I diluted with NO WATER and only used Pure Aloe Vera Gel. Yes, it does leave a cloudy diluted soap, but saying that...I find when I use it for Shampoo, Body wash and Hand-soap, I find that my body and hair feels much more softer and moisturized. My hands enjoy the FEEL of the Aloe Soap so very much!

So, saying that...is this OK to dilute with only Aloe Vera Gel and NOT water? I find that to make sure of things, I have been placing a preservative in my Aloe Vera Soap. That is because my Aloe Vera Gel is organic and raw...I didn't want to introduce any future bad things to happen with my soap. Where when I dilute with Distilled Water, I do NOT add a preservative. I might do that if someday I start selling it, but for home use and gift-giving, no, I don't.

What I found is that diluting with Aloe Vera Gel, my soap becomes more of a luxury soap to the skin and hair. Aloe can do so much good for the body. Where, I love the soap diluted with water, I can tell a huge difference between the two. If a person can get past the cloudy soap part, I do think they will enjoy this soap so much more than just diluted with distilled water. 

So, now that I have been doing this...ha ha ha....is this OK to continue to dilute using Aloe Vera Gel over  diluting with Distilled Water?


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## Paintguru

So the dilution process is more labor and time intensive than the paste making process!  There must be a more efficient (energy and time) way of doing this.  I wonder if the microwave is the tool to use here.  Melt the paste in the microwave (a la chocolate melting process) and then pour directly into the heater dilution water?  May try that next.


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## DeeAnna

The general rule of thumb is to dilute with distilled water only to minimize the chance of microbial growth. Commercial aloe vera has preservatives in it, but only to preserve just THAT product at its usual pH, not to preserve anything more than that. 

I would guess from your words that you're determined to use aloe rather than water, so either use a preservative that is effective at the higher pH of liquid soap or store the diluted LS in the refrigerator and use promptly.


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## Susie

Paintguru said:


> So the dilution process is more labor and time intensive than the paste making process!  There must be a more efficient (energy and time) way of doing this.  I wonder if the microwave is the tool to use here.  Melt the paste in the microwave (a la chocolate melting process) and then pour directly into the heater dilution water?  May try that next.



It really is not more labor intensive.  If you know how much water to add, you just break the paste up, add the water, and walk away.  I use the crock pot to help dilute the paste because I am impatient.  It does take a bit more time than making CP liquid soap, but not more time and labor than making HP liquid soap. 

I have never tried "melting" the paste in the micro.  Let us know how that works, please?


----------



## minipops

Has anyone try using aloe Vera gel to resolve the KOH and than add it to the oil? Would we still need a preservative?


----------



## DeeAnna

There are two issues about preservatives in liquid soap -- using a preservative in the paste and using one in the diluted soap.

I'd say the high pH of a soap paste tends to preserve the paste fairly well, as long as you doesn't get too crazy about adding all kinds of stuff to the paste or obsess about reducing the pH with acid or borax to unrealistic levels. I would say most soapers don't add preservative to the paste, but some store their paste in the refrigerator just to be safe. It's my opinion that making paste with aloe as the liquid is reasonably safe. If you use aloe to make the paste but the recipe is otherwise pretty basic, the action of the lye and its high pH will help keep the paste sanitary. 

There's no general agreement about adding a preservative in the finished, diluted LS. Some people do, some don't. If the paste is pretty basic -- just water, lye, and oil -- I'd say the preservative is optional. For a paste made with aloe, the aloe will still be food for microbial growth in the diluted soap, so I would still use a good preservative suitable for high pH products in the diluted soap.

People often ask about diluting with goat milk, aloe, tea, or whatever, but I really don't think it is a wise move to dilute with anything but distilled water. If you add a heavy dose of "microbe food" when diluting a liquid soap, you're likely to lose your bet that microbes won't grow. That is especially true if you don't use a preservative, but is also a real concern even if you do. Preservatives can only do so much; they can't work miracles.


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## Paintguru

Susie said:


> It really is not more labor intensive.  If you know how much water to add, you just break the paste up, add the water, and walk away.  I use the crock pot to help dilute the paste because I am impatient.  It does take a bit more time than making CP liquid soap, but not more time and labor than making HP liquid soap.
> 
> I have never tried "melting" the paste in the micro.  Let us know how that works, please?



Yeah my issue may have been I had big chunks of paste in my mixture so it took a bit longer.  I did attempt a small amount of paste in the micro and it liquified in a few seconds.  I can see how one could over-zap it and burn it, but it may be a good way to break apart the larger chunks non-mechanically (blender/spoon).  I'll do a trial run later today.


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## Paintguru

Okay hot water plus melted paste = giant bubble explosion (think superheated liquid) .  Will try to heat the combined water/paste in the microwave and see if that goes any faster/better.  Maybe just easier to do crock pot with a bunch of jars.


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## Susie

I just make my paste in the crockpot.  Makes dilution easier.


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## Paintguru

Susie said:


> I just make my paste in the crockpot.  Makes dilution easier.



Wait, you make your paste directly in the crock pot and then just add water to dilute?  Guess that makes sense.  I hate pouring stuff out of the crock though, but mine is more oval shaped than circular.


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## Susie

Mine is old(1986) and circular.  I just use a soup ladle to ladle out enough to fill the bottles.  If I am re-filling the laundry soap, I use a measuring cup to scoop out the liquid soap and pour it into the jug.  I only pick up the crock pot to pour the last little bit.

And yes, I just make the soap in there,(not turned on, as I make CP liquid soap), but I turn the crock pot on high as soon as there is no zap(10-15 min), and break it up with a spoon and pour the water in.  Then I walk away for an hour or so, and do other stuff.  I revisit it as needed to stir, and add water if needed.  Just keep an eye on it to not foam out of the top for an hour or so.


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## CookbookChef

DeeAnna said:


> The general rule of thumb is to dilute with distilled water only to minimize the chance of microbial growth. Commercial aloe vera has preservatives in it, but only to preserve just THAT product at its usual pH, not to preserve anything more than that.
> 
> I would guess from your words that you're determined to use aloe rather than water, so either use a preservative that is effective at the higher pH of liquid soap or store the diluted LS in the refrigerator and use promptly.



Thank  you for the response DeeAnna! I have used the aloe vera gel to dilute, as stated, but I DO, or I DID add the max amount of Preservative. Liquid Germal Plus is what I used. Ok tho, I will make sure to BE AWARE that I run a higher risk using the aloe vera, even with the diluted water. I was using a gallon jug of aloe vera gel that I got from walmart. But, I went to MMS online and found an aloe vera gel POWDER! I might try that. It states that I can mix it with water to make aloe vera JUICE. I dont know if juice and gel are the same thing, but I figure It might help my product to use this powdered aloe vera juice powder due to the fact that I would first dilute it in distilled water. I would then add the distilled water/aloe vera juice mix, into the soap paste. I will still max out on my preservative. I know you are correct, I MUST be extra careful when doing this kind of dilution and I need to understand that my preservative is NOT a miracle worker. Saying that, I do still think overall that the soap is way much better for the skin using aloe vera gel as apposed to just simply distilled water. Just my thoughts, but I do NOW have a better understanding of what you were trying to get across. Thank you for your input as your information is good, I do believe. I will be extra cautiousness in its use and or storage if I do dilute using aloe. Thank you very much, again


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## CookbookChef

LYE HEAVY LIQUID SOAP
NOTE!!! 3 UPDATES ARE AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST

Hi, Now I have a NEW problem. My liquid soaps have not been lye heavy, except for one time. That one time that it was zappy, I just let it cook longer, and then it was fine. It later, within hours, became good usable soap that was no longer zappy.

Now, yesterday I did 2 crock pots, running at the same time. One crock pot had a 1 pound batch going, and the 2nd crock pot had a 2 pound batch going. Both were Liquid Soap. Now, about 7 hours later went to check and BOTH batches were lye heavy and zappy. I turned on the heat (due to the fact I was using Irishlass recipe where you make your soap without the heat on) so I turned on the heat and remelted the zappy soap. About 4 hours later the 1 pound batch was no longer zappy and I even double checked using PHENOPHTHALEIN Drops. And the one pound batch did NOT turn pink when tested. But, the 2 pound batch DID turn pink when tested and the paste zapped me still. So, I cooked it on low all night long. Still zappy in the morning. I let the paste just Sit around all day, and checked it now tonight. It is still zappy and the paste still shows a bright pink. 
So now what? If possible, I do NOT want to add any borax or citric acid to it, I do have this available if need be, but I just dont want to use it. Is it possible to just keep cooking it and it will turn into usable soap, eventually? I mean, the other crock worked out that way!! But with cooking it all night, you would think that would of been enough. So, ya, I am confused. I am open to suggestions as that is 2 full pounds of soap paste that I dont want to just throw away, I do believe somehow it is fixable. If I were the one answering this question for somebody else, I would just say keep cooking it longer....but...lol, I did that, 2 more times...and the 2nd time cooked for at least 8 hours. I really dont know what could of gone wrong. I do not that when I added the lye water to the ONE pound batch, the liquid with the oils was nice and runny, like water. But when I added the lye water to the TWO pound batch, it turned kind of thick...almost right away, almost as if I had used sodium instead of KOH....but I double checked, I did use Koh. Even now, the soap paste is paste, it looks like brown gravy that set up as apposed to shiny taffy like the one pound paste looks like. This thick gravy FEELS like taffy, but has a very plain look to it, not glossy at all. I am open to suggestions on how to fix a very high lye heavy paste. Can I just add some more oil to it, so that the lye has something to eat? lol

UPDATE!!!!!!
I went and started to re read all the posts from the start of this thread. I got to about number 50 thru 72 and in this zone I learned about a problem with somebody not adding enough glycerin, and had zappy soap. The end to it was that the person was informed to add the missing glycerin and re heat the paste. They did so and this made the paste turn into soap and show up not zappy later. The part about my ABOVE statement that I guess I forgot to add is that while mixing up and cooking my lye glycerin on the stove, I had about a full teaspoon of lye that was undesolved. I could not get it to ever desolve. I ended up taking that un desolved lye out and adding in some NEW lye, ABOUT the same amount as I took out. I placed back into my pot ABOUT the same amount of glycerin....so, 1:1....this is why I think I am lye heavy.  I needed to add the glycerin in at a 3:1 amount. So, I am about to add approximately 4 teaspoons of glycerin back into the crock pot of paste, and put in on low to mix this in, then give it a few hours. I am in high hopes that this will do the trick and I will get a past that runs no pink with the Pheno drops later. And no tongue zap!! I could just add about 2 teaspoons glycerin in, but I am going to add 4 teaspoons in as the extra glycerin surely will not hurt it, I am just covering myself here. Oh well, live and learn. I will report back late tonight, or in the morning the outcome. This thread is SUPER VALUABLE to anybody doing liquid soap as it is starting to answer its OWN questions now. I see that MOST problems or issues have already been covered, this is good for the person who can not wait for a response, like me tonight. Re reading the thread gave me what I THINK is my answer. I will update later 

OK UPDATE NUMBER 2

Its no good!! The glycerin I added did nothing. Been cooking it on low for 3 more hours. Still showing bright pink Pheno. I just added 1 full ounce of Castor Oil to the paste and mixed it in well. I figure its a 2 pound batch so one ounce of ANY oil shouldn't hurt it, well, any meaning the same oils I used to begin with. Anyway, yes, this is an experiment now for sure. Will this one ounce of castor oil help it??? I will report back yet another update later. Time will tell.(it really is super lye heavy I think, I have really BRIGHT pink pheno when its tested)

UPDATE NUMBER 3
Nope...Still pink pheno and the zap test is still zappy. I will not just turn off the crock pot and let it set up to paste overnight. Hopefully by morning it will be fine. But as of now everything I have done, adding the glycerin, adding an ounce of castor oil...nothing has worked. Not even a LONG cook time in the crock pot. oh well. I KNOW Irishlasses recipe works as I have made it over and over again with great success. This fault was my own, I truly thought taking out those bits of lye that were stubborn and would not melt, and then putting in new lye in its place, I really figured that would work. Maybe for someone else it might of, but for me, in this 24 hours portion of time, it did not. Ok folks, I bid you farwell and sleep well. I will check on the zappy paste in the morning.


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## FGOriold

Glycerin will not saponify which is why adding it will not affect the excess lye in your soap paste. Add a bit more oil to give the excess lye something to saponify.


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## Susie

And figure out why your lye is not dissolving before using it again.  You should NEVER add undissolved lye to oils.  You be sure every last grain of lye is dissolved before adding to oils.


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## CookbookChef

FGOriold said:


> Glycerin will not saponify which is why adding it will not affect the excess lye in your soap paste. Add a bit more oil to give the excess lye something to saponify.




I Did end up giving the paste some castor oil...a full ounce. This morning it is STILL running pink on the pheno test, and still zaps....BUT, I can tell you that if finally looks like transparent Paste!!! Last night it looked like brown gravy that set up....today it LOOKS like paste...so, a least its starting to move in the right direction. I am GUESSING that I need to add a bit more oil to it. Olive is a good idea, I just felt good about going with Castor last night...so far, so good. A change in the right direction....but yet, not their just yet. I will give yet another ounce of oil...Thank you for your help FGOriold, I so very much appreciate your response, and your help!


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## CookbookChef

Susie said:


> And figure out why your lye is not dissolving before using it again.  You should NEVER add undissolved lye to oils.  You be sure every last grain of lye is dissolved before adding to oils.



I totally AGREE with you Susie, and thats why I DID NOT add any un disolved lye to my oils....which is what got me into trouble trying to "FIX THINGS" On my my own by taking out the un desolved Lye, and trying to RE ADD new lye about the same weight. But its the GUESSING that got me into trouble, I did not weigh the lye I took out against what I put back in. Yes, a rookie mistake. I have made now 19 batches of Liquid soap, but in the scope of things, a rookie mistake indeed.
Also, Agree that I surely needed to find out why my lye was not disolving. You see, Every time I have made the soap I only have been making it at a 1 pound batch size. So, I got USED TO MY WAYS....bad bad...you see, I got used to the way the KOH Melted on the stove very fast with the Glycerin....well, when I did that 2 pound batch, My mind still was in the mode of "Hey, How come this is taking so long to dissolve?" In reality, it wasn't, but that is the problem when somebody gets USED to something. Its like when you go to work every day for a year, you barely have to think to drive to work. But the moment they put in a change, due to road construction, They end up having lots of accidents on the road all because of the fact people got way to used to the route they were taking. I had been making so many batches of soap with my Hubby, that We got used to how things look and feel along with melting times..so, when that LARGER amount of KOH Was not melting fast enough, instead of slowing down to think, we just decided that something was wrong with the KOH and just took out what ever was melting slow...and tried to replace it thinking that it had to be the Koh, and NOT us, or our temperature, or simply TIME.....
So....We again last night did yet another 2 pound batch of Liquid soap...This time determined to find out was thier something wrong with the KOH or us or what?!?!
Well, we again got to a part where the KOH wasn't melting...we took a deep breath and said to each other "OK, Lets be patient here, give it a few more minutes". And we did, we did just that, it was simply a TIME issue, only took a mere two extra minutes to dilute the extra Lye, but you see, when you have done batch after batch and you get to the part of melting the Lye, and it takes say 3 to 4 minutes to melt a small of amount of Lye....5 to 6 or 7 minutes feels like forever!! MY BAD!! 
They say that making mistakes is not a bad thing due to that fact that every mistake is a point in learning. Well, what we both learned tonight is that EACH TIME...thats right, each time we make a batch of Soap, be it liquid or regular bar soap, we need to treat it like its the first time. Auto Pilot Soaping has no place in our lives, the same way Auto Pilot Driving has no place for us on the road. That kind of functioning or lack their off, gets one into trouble. So, this mistake has given us a new edge! A new way of soaping that we believe will make us better. Yes, we learn from our mistakes, and we had to stop and ask ourselves this very basic of quistions: "Why are we in such a hurry?"lol.....its a HOBBY, NOT A CAREER!! So....ya, we learned to slow down and enjoy the road a bit more, enjoy our Hobby instead of just getting to Letter Z. We learned that its not about getting to the end that matters, we learned to enjoy the Journey. 
Thank you Susie for your information and your reply. We know what you have said is true, we just simply rushed things. Good thing we both get to soap yet another day


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## FGOriold

I always use glycerin amounts as 3 x the weight of the KOH when doing full glycerin method - any less and my KOH just won't fully dissolve. I also find it easier to add the KOH to room temperature glycerin, then slowly heat the two together to allow the KOH to dissolve. I find that much easier, neater and safer than adding KOH to hot glycerin.


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## CookbookChef

FGOriold said:


> I always use glycerin amounts as 3 x the weight of the KOH when doing full glycerin method - any less and my KOH just won't fully dissolve. I also find it easier to add the KOH to room temperature glycerin, then slowly heat the two together to allow the KOH to dissolve. I find that much easier, neater and safer than adding KOH to hot glycerin.



I agree, this is the ONLY way I ever make my soap. Right on!!


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## CookbookChef

my soap paste is still zappy even after all my atempts to make it go to neutral.....sigh!!! 
I do not know how to do the whole add borax thing....looks like I might be forced to do this unless somebody has a way for me to fix my soap naturally....cause thats what I wanted. I dont have a clue as to how much borax to add or even what to do....looks like more research....me is tired:???: but still happy with life :grin:


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## CookbookChef

Here is what I followed along with the Link to help my zappy Paste after I did everything possible to help it not be zappy, I was forced to add some Borax to it:

http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/liquidsoap/a/neutralizeliq.htm

To neutralize using the Summer Bee Meadow method:
Make a 5% solution of either boric acid or borax:
.5 oz. boric acid OR borax
9.5 oz. nearly boiling distilled water
To hot soap paste, add 4 tbs. of your neutralizing solution per 8 oz. of soap paste. (For 1 lb. of soap paste, add 8 tbs. For 2 lbs. of soap paste, add 16 tbs. of neutralizer. Etc.)
To be extra safe, test your liquid soap with Phenolphthalein pH Indicator.
After you've neutralized the soap, dilute and sequester the soap as you normally would. Using either method, the neutralization gives you nice clear soap that is still mild to the skin.

Ok, So I made up my Borax Solution and for me I thought I would only add HALF of the amount of Borax Solution and then test with the Pheno Drops. Good thing I went with my gut feeling on it as it only took HALF of my Borax solution and now tested CLEAR as a bell with the Pheno Drops!! Praise God!! This has been several days on this soap paste and I feel bad I had to resort to adding some Borax. Plus, that was a hard call altogether too as I have BORIC Powder, CITRIC Acid and the BORAX Powder...I had to figure out what would be the BEST to use...and It was no easy answer. But, atlas, I used the Borax and I have crystal clear and NON Zappy Soap!! YEA!!
I love this liquid soap thread, I think it will really help allot of NEW soapers, even some old ones too


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## soapgirltami

Yep, works every time. And you're right about starting in the light side, you can always add more


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## CookbookChef

soapgirltami said:


> Yep, works every time. And you're right about starting in the light side, you can always add more



Yes True True Soapgirltami!! This was the FIRST time I have ever had to add borax to my soap and nobody tolled me that, it was just a gut feeling to add some, then check it before adding all of the borax mix. Glad I did that too, cause it came out just wonderful. Thing is, I noticed that my soap is thicker now....I mean it, This liquid soap is taking allot more water to dilute due to the fact that I added the borax. I dont know if that is something that normally happens, but on Irishlasses soap recipe, I always am fine with diluting at 75%...to one part paste. But, I am being forced to dilute  at 1:1 and I could even go with more water. That Borax made it thick...it made it so thick that their is no way that I could do 75% water.  hhhhhmmmm, so, for me I am thinking anytime I have super thin soap, maybe just a touch of Borax would help it thicken up. Interesting


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## KristaY

_"That Borax made it thick...it made it so thick that their is no way that I could do 75% water. hhhhhmmmm, so, for me I am thinking anytime I have super thin soap, maybe just a touch of Borax would help it thicken up."_ 

 In Catherine Failor's book "Making Natural Liquid Soaps" she discusses the use of borax at length. To quote her, _"Borax is the 'silver bullet' of liquid soapmaking. It enhances and stabilizes foam, softens hard water, buffers pH, and acts as a preservative. Borax is also invaluable for creating more concentrated soap solutions because of it's ability to both emulsify and thicken."_

 I know she uses borax primarily as a neutralizer because she did all her wonderful work before online lye calculators were available, so her recipes are lye heavy. It also allows you to play a bit with dilution percentages. I also know many people don't like to use borax due to a skin sensitivity or just personal preference. It's also banned in the EU so that's a consideration. Personally, I use it when I want to because it doesn't bother my skin or my husband's. It also has the benefit of a pH that's 9.2 so it won't over-neutralize your soap. Borax is a topic that's a bit controversial and it's use is personal choice to each soap maker.

 I'm really glad you sorted out your lye heavy soap in the end, CookbookChef! Every time I have a problem like that, I look at it as a huge learning experience. I certainly have a lot of learning experiences in my life, lol!


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## DeeAnna

Another thing to keep in mind is that borax will not thicken all diluted liquid soaps equally. If your soap has a high proportion of coconut oil or PKO, borax may not thicken the soap at all.


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## fuzz-juzz

Great thread! I've been reading it for the last couple of days and now I have an itch to try and make LS.
I will be ordering KOH and glycerine after the holidays, can't wait. 
I hope to follow original recipe by IrishLass , except maybe to cook the paste like in the video. Just to get an idea how it works.
So, just to clarify again, no need to use neutraliser if correct amount and type of KOH is used in the lye calculator?
And also, will this kind of LS work in one of those foaming soap dispensers?
Will OO plus let's say sunflower and castor oil make a good LS, will it foam a bit at least, while still being gentle?
Sorry, I know it might have been mentioned but I just want to be sure.
I have a friend with terrible eczema on hands but she was told to use shop bought stuff that says it's for eczema but it still contains SLS and other nasties. I want to make something really gentle and see if that works for her.
Thanks all!


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## DeeAnna

_no need to use neutraliser if correct amount and type of KOH is used in the lye calculator?_

Yes, you're correct if you do the following:

If you use the Summerbeemeadow calc, choose KOH, and use 1-3% superfat. 

Or use Soapcalc, choose KOH, check 90% purity, and use 1-3% superfat. I would also increase the water content when using Soapcalc so your lye solution concentration is 25% -- that means three parts water and one part lye. The default settings for Soapcalc don't give enough water for liquid soap recipes.

_And also, will this kind of LS work in one of those foaming soap dispensers?_

Any LS will work in a foamer IF you add enough water to make the diluted soap fairly watery. Start a bit on the too-thick side, try it in a foamer, add a bit more water if it doesn't foam nicely, repeat. Keep track of your dilution so you don't have to reinvent the wheel when you do it again. The dilution amount that works best will depend on the recipe.

_Will OO plus let's say sunflower and castor oil make a good LS, will it foam a bit at least, while still being gentle?_

If I were to give you a suggestion, stick with Irish Lass' recipe for your first batch or two, then branch out if you want. Her recipe really is a winner -- it's mild to the skin and foams well, the paste dilutes easily to a nice syrupy consistency if that's what you want, the soap paste is easy to make, and the diluted soap is crystal clear. Her recipe will give you a good base line from which to judge any recipes you might create. 

I'm not the best person to ask about designing good LS recipes from scratch. Maybe Susie or Irish Lass will give you their thoughts on your idea for an OO, sunflower, and castor LS recipe.


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## Susie

Unless you have some reason not to use coconut oil or PKO, you need to have one of those for bubbles.  I am going to second the "use IrishLass' recipe and method" motion.  Stick with something you know works for your first attempt.  Then you can branch off after you know how the whole process works.  Just getting your friend away from the SLS and other chemicals may be enough to "cure" the eczema.  It worked for me.  And it is the perfect place for her to start figuring out what is causing the problem.  Does she use your handmade bar soap?  The less commercial soap I used, the better my eczema got, that included laundry soap.


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## fuzz-juzz

Thanks ladies! 
DeaAnna, thanks for pointing out few things I missed, there's lots of info in this thread and easy to get overwhelmed. Supplier of KOH I am planning to order from states it's 90% pure so I will definitely follow that lye calculator. 
Susie, I was planning on using original IrishLass recipe and if it works well, start to formulate different recipes. I might just drop the % of CO as experiment later on and see how it works out in regards to reducing harshness while still having some bubble action.
My friend is scared of using bar soap, even though I've given her some. Dr said it's bad so it must be true, right.  She told me she's using this particular brand of washes and lotions sold in Australia that's aimed for people with eczema, but on my closer inspection, it contains tones of chemicals, one of them SLS. I want to eventually formulate gentle LS that she will be willing to try. She doesn't really know what's causing it, other than that commercial liquid soaps, shower gels, dish-washing detergents etc are making it worse.


----------



## Susie

She sounds just like how my skin was acting.  I was out of options.  I had used every prescription and doctor recommended product out there.  Hand made soap was a life changer for me.  I do wish she would try your soap.  But you can't force her.


----------



## shaan

Hey Irishlass! Sorry to bother you once again, but whenever i hear so nice comments about your recipe,i want to give it another try..i made four batches using your recipe,but none looked good as yours in the pic..neither my stages go as mentioned by you.. i followed each and everything as guided by you..but i dont know what goes wrong.. as i stir my mixture,it turns into a white paste after sometime.. twice i cooked it till gel stage,but this time i left it as it is to see if it turns into Vaseline like itself..but nothing happened after around 12 hours..so i cooked that also till Vaseline-honey like..but when i used water at 75% of paste,it again got thick white..i added little more water and it turned dark amber colored liquid.. not much thick.. so i wonder if my oils are not good or may be i added more water..or my lye is not good? I used coconut oil that gets hard at low temperatures, pomace olive oil,and castor oil..my lye was 85% pure.. so i used this calculation- please check it -
For 500 grams i used
Castor oil-50g, coconut oil-125g, olive oil-325g, water-159g, glycerin-150g(total liquid-300g), lye-117g..
I got paste weight as 842 g, so i multiplied by 0.75, that gave 632 g water.. but it got thick,so i added 180 g more water..thats it. I wanna give it one more try


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## lpstephy85

Finally throwing my hat in to the ring on LS. My KOH will be here tomorrow so I will be itching and staring at the clock at work tomorrow waiting to get home and get the show on the road. This thread has been a wonderful tool so thank you to everyone who contributed to it! That being said below is my recipe. I decided on 1% superfat just to allow for a margin of error and I put in at a 25% lye solution (I tried SBM advanced calc but it is too busy for me and I am so used to soapcalc. I am glad IrishLass brought up awhile ago about the difference in water/glycerine ratio between the two calcs!) I am sure this recipe will be fine but I just wanted to see if anything stands out to the pros:


----------



## Susie

What are you wanting to do with the soap?  If it is hand soap/shower soap, the superfat is too low.  I would use 3%.

Why so many oils?  I think for a first soap, I would use no more than 4.  With more oils, you are complicating your process.


----------



## DeeAnna

Yep, I'd KISS it (Keep It Simple, Soaper!) for a first batch. I second Susie's recommendation to use 3% superfat if you're making a bath/body/hand soap.


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## lpstephy85

Thank you ladies for the suggestions. I think this should yield a better result


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## Susie

Much better!  Should be great!


----------



## IrishLass

shaan said:


> Hey Irishlass! Sorry to bother you once again, but whenever i hear so nice comments about your recipe,i want to give it another try..i made four batches using your recipe,but none looked good as yours in the pic..neither my stages go as mentioned by you.. i followed each and everything as guided by you..but i dont know what goes wrong.. as i stir my mixture,it turns into a white paste after sometime.. twice i cooked it till gel stage,but this time i left it as it is to see if it turns into Vaseline like itself..but nothing happened after around 12 hours..so i cooked that also till Vaseline-honey like..but when i used water at 75% of paste,it again got thick white..i added little more water and it turned dark amber colored liquid.. not much thick.. so i wonder if my oils are not good or may be i added more water..or my lye is not good? I used coconut oil that gets hard at low temperatures, pomace olive oil,and castor oil..my lye was 85% pure.. so i used this calculation- please check it -
> For 500 grams i used
> Castor oil-50g, coconut oil-125g, olive oil-325g, water-159g, glycerin-150g(total liquid-300g), lye-117g..
> I got paste weight as 842 g, so i multiplied by 0.75, that gave 632 g water.. but it got thick,so i added 180 g more water..thats it. I wanna give it one more try





Hi Shaan! 

Just wanted to clarify to one and all that I don't take any credit for the formula of 65% OO, 25% CO 10% castor. That honor belongs to Carrie Peterson (aka 3bees~1flower) who came up with it and graciously shared it on YouTube. Just thought I'd mention that since it keeps (mistakenly) getting attributed to me and I just want to give credit where credit is due. 

Well, moving on- Shaan, could you write out the exact procedure of how you are going about it step by step? That would be so very helpful in helping me to help you troubleshoot.

You said you followed each and everything as guided by me....

In the beginning of this thread, I posted about using 100% glycerin in which to dissolve the KOH, and then much later on I experimented with dissolving the KOH in water first and then mixing it with the full amount of glycerin that I normally use- two different methods. From your water and glycerin amounts that you posted, it looks like you might be using my second, experimental method? I just want to clarify whether or not that is so. It will be very helpful to me to know for sure.

I looked over your recipe amounts and typed them into the calculator that I use for my liquid soaps (SummerbeeMeadow's Advanced lye calculator) and it shows me that your liquid amount is lower than it should be for your recipe amounts of oil and KOH if you were to have used the 3% superfat that I always use, which may be the cause of some of your problems. Liquid amounts are very important.

If you don't mind me asking, which lye calculator do you use? As I stated above, I myself always use Summerbee's Advanced calculator ( http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps ) because it gives me a higher, much more successful/workable liquid-to-KOH ratio than other calculators. 

Also, I noticed you used pomace olive oil instead of regular olive oil. I've never used pomace myself, so that may or may not also be a factor, I don't know for sure. I always use regular olive oil (Kirkland brand from Costco).

Anyway, using the oil amounts that you posted (and making sure to account for pomace instead of regular olive oil), this is what SummerbeeMeadow's advanced calculator gave me for the KOH and liquid amounts if it were to be superfatted at my usual 3%:

KOH- 105g

Total Batch Liquid (i.e., just the 'up-front' amount of liquid it takes to make the paste. It does not include the dilution water)- 315g

In comparison, the KOH amount that you used was 117g- a difference of 12g _more_ than I would use. And the total batch liquid you used to make the paste was 300g- a difference of 15g _less_ than I would use.

If it were me, I would try making the recipe with same oil amounts you posted, but with 105g KOH and 315g total 'up-front' batch liquid (as glycerin) instead.


IrishLass


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## Dahila

I just tried to make a LS, doing it with Irishlass way.  I had a lot of bubbles but not as much as you wrote it.  Well it is staying in the pot and I will see what happen next.  I probably leave it overnight.  I am not sure I did it correctly, I could not tell which trace is good,  does it look like thick CP soap trace?


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## Susie

No, liquid soap trace is a paste consistency.  If the stick blender can't mix it, it is trace.


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## Dahila

oh so maybe I should mix it longer.  It is two hours, already can I mix it more, right now Susie?
Nope I checked and it very thick opaque paste, no way to mix it. Still lye heavy


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## Susie

If it is paste, it has traced.  Something has gone wrong with either your recipe or process.  It may be non-zappy in the morning.

Can you post specifically what oils and how much of each in grams or ounces.  How much water, and how much KOH in grams or ounces also.  Also any additives such as fragrances, milks, etc.

Then go over each step you did.  

I know you said it is just like IrishLass's, but something has gone haywire, and the only way I know to help is to see the recipe spelled out from start to finish.


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## Dahila

65% OO, 25% CO, 10% Castro Oil, glycerine 650 g, KOH 221 g,  Superfat 3%,  25% Lye concentration.  It is paste but is not transculent and still pink with the using of          Phenolphthalein 1% Solution.  I will check it again in the morning. Maybe I am checking it not the right way.  I just had read in Failor book that is should be small amount dissolved in water then checked with drops.  Thank you Susie for answering.  Maybe you can figure it out somehow
I will post the ounces too
OO 22.93 oz
CO 8.82 oz
Castor 3.53 oz
KOH 7.82 oz
glycerine 23.47 oz

1. in pot room temperature glycerine mix into koh , the other way areound I added koh to glycerine and brought it to boil ,   on medium heat it took about 20 minutes to dissolve it. 
then I poured it to the oils they were warm and started to mix.  It went to emulsion, then thick emulsion then clear amber color, then I got a lot of bubbles, however not as many as Irishlass.  I still mixed till I got the trace, thick trace and was getting translucent color . I covered the pot and left it alone.  I will wait till morning and see what happens.  I will post  the findings


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## CookbookChef

KristaY said:


> _"That Borax made it thick...it made it so thick that their is no way that I could do 75% water. hhhhhmmmm, so, for me I am thinking anytime I have super thin soap, maybe just a touch of Borax would help it thicken up."_
> 
> In Catherine Failor's book "Making Natural Liquid Soaps" she discusses the use of borax at length. To quote her, _"Borax is the 'silver bullet' of liquid soapmaking. It enhances and stabilizes foam, softens hard water, buffers pH, and acts as a preservative. Borax is also invaluable for creating more concentrated soap solutions because of it's ability to both emulsify and thicken."_
> 
> I know she uses borax primarily as a neutralizer because she did all her wonderful work before online lye calculators were available, so her recipes are lye heavy. It also allows you to play a bit with dilution percentages. I also know many people don't like to use borax due to a skin sensitivity or just personal preference. It's also banned in the EU so that's a consideration. Personally, I use it when I want to because it doesn't bother my skin or my husband's. It also has the benefit of a pH that's 9.2 so it won't over-neutralize your soap. Borax is a topic that's a bit controversial and it's use is personal choice to each soap maker.
> 
> I'm really glad you sorted out your lye heavy soap in the end, CookbookChef! Every time I have a problem like that, I look at it as a huge learning experience. I certainly have a lot of learning experiences in my life, lol!



Thank you so very much for your information about Borax...Maybe that is why I see some Nameless Famouse LS using Citric Acid as this is an item that is widely accepted by the general population. Thanks Kristay!!!!


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## CookbookChef

DeeAnna said:


> Another thing to keep in mind is that borax will not thicken all diluted liquid soaps equally. If your soap has a high proportion of coconut oil or PKO, borax may not thicken the soap at all.



Good To Know DeeAnna about the Borax and Coconut Oil...yes, this info DOES help me indeed


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## Susie

Dahila said:


> 65% OO, 25% CO, 10% Castro Oil, glycerine 650 g, KOH 221 g,  Superfat 3%,  25% Lye concentration.  It is paste but is not transculent and still pink with the using of          Phenolphthalein 1% Solution.  I will check it again in the morning. Maybe I am checking it not the right way.  I just had read in Failor book that is should be small amount dissolved in water then checked with drops.  Thank you Susie for answering.  Maybe you can figure it out somehow
> I will post the ounces too
> OO 22.93 oz
> CO 8.82 oz
> Castor 3.53 oz
> KOH 7.82 oz
> glycerine 23.47 oz
> 
> 1. in pot room temperature glycerine mix into koh , the other way areound I added koh to glycerine and brought it to boil ,   on medium heat it took about 20 minutes to dissolve it.
> then I poured it to the oils they were warm and started to mix.  It went to emulsion, then thick emulsion then clear amber color, then I got a lot of bubbles, however not as many as Irishlass.  I still mixed till I got the trace, thick trace and was getting translucent color . I covered the pot and left it alone.  I will wait till morning and see what happens.  I will post  the findings



That looks fine to me.  I ran it through 2 calculators, and you are within the range of them.  Although if you did use SBM Advanced, it says you are at -2% superfat, SoapCalc says you are around 2% superfat.  I know it seems crazy, but this is why I use one calculator for bar soaps, and one for liquid. I simply like the liquid soap better on the SBM. 

You did get bubbles.  That is important.  You got thick paste, and transluscent color. That is also important.  I do not use phenolpthalein.  I zap test.  If I were you, I would zap test it in the morning.  Should be fine.  

If it is still zappy, put your paste back into the crock pot on low and add oil(either CO or OO) a teaspoon at the time, stirring and heating for at least half an hour between additions until it stops zapping.  

If you don't mind using borax, you can add 6 oz boiling water to 3 oz borax in a separate container, and stir until dissolved.  Add that to your hot paste a teaspoon at the time and wait half an hour between additions.  

If you prefer citric acid, I am going to have to beg DeeAnna or someone with more experience neutralizing to step in and help, as I have never used it, and would hate to steer you wrong.


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## lpstephy85

Might have been here and I might not remember or missed it but with LS, does it matter if there is solid oils or not in the recipe? Is this a stupid question?


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## Dahila

Coconut is solid oil and it is in recipe.  Morning, the paste still turns ugly pink but when I tried the tongue it does not zap,  How it is possible? I gave my crock pot to my daughter so do not have it, but I could do actually in two pots.
My hubby tasted too NO zap.  I am diluting now.


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## DeeAnna

_"...does it matter if there is solid oils or not in the recipe? Is this a stupid question?..."_

I just saw this tongue in cheek comment a few days ago -- "There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers." :Kitten Love:

For LS, having solid fats in the recipe is not so important from a processing standpoint. The point of having some solid oils in a bar soap is the soap will be firmer at unmolding and also the batter will reach trace faster. In LS, the first doesn't apply. The second is an issue, but you can easily compensate for slow trace by making the lye solution using all or part glycerin and/or soaping with added heat (crock pot, oven, stove top, etc.)

As far as the properties of cleansing, longevity, mildness, etc. that solid fats bring to a liquid soap -- I'm still learning about that, so take my words with a grain of salt. 

From what I'm seeing, many LS recipes don't use the usual lard, palm, or tallow -- the firm fats that add longevity and hardness to a bar soap. LS recipes are more likely to have just brittle fats (coconut oil, PKO, etc) that add bubbles and high cleansing and liquid oils (olive, castor, soy, etc) that add mildness and lather. 

I think this avoidance of the firm fats is because the high % of stearic and palmitic acids in these fats can make a LS cloudy or opaque. The traditional preference appears to be for a clear LS. If you don't mind cloudiness, however, the firm fats are fine. 

I think Susie has used lard or tallow in some of her LS recipes -- hopefully she can give her perspective.

_"...the paste still turns ugly pink but when I tried the tongue it does not zap, How it is possible?..."_

Because phenolphthalein turns pink at or above a pH of 8.2 in a dilute water solution. If the natural pH of the soap is higher than that -- and it often is -- then the phenol-p test that most soapers do will show pink. Like Susie, I zap test. I have phenol-p and use it once in awhile just for grins, but I don't take it seriously at all. I don't see the point in hyperventilating about a soap pH that is perfectly safe and normal -- the pH of most soap ranges from 9 to 11.

_"...If you prefer citric acid, I am going to have to beg DeeAnna or someone with more experience neutralizing to step in and help..."_

No begging required, Susie -- I look up to you as my LS making mentor!

As far as using citric acid to neutralize excess lye, I honestly would avoid it. Most soaps are not so lye heavy that citric makes any sense. Instead, I'd use Susie's suggestion to add a bit of fat or borax. Only tiny amounts of citric will lower the pH a LOT, so it is far too easy to add too much and ruin the soap. The soapers on another LS group that I read are forever "breaking" their soaps as they fuss around with citric acid -- they invariably lower the pH too far.


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## lpstephy85

You always amaze me DeeAnna! Going from doing nothing but bar soap and shifting gears to LS has my brain all a tumble so I wasn't sure if my thought process was on track. I had the same thought that yeah solid oils are needed to bar soap but really what does it bring to LS? I was thinking in my recipe I posted a few posts back of swapping out the CO for frac. CO as I wanted to keep my LS as a clear as possible. Does anyone see an issue with that?


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## Susie

Lard gives a cloudy liquid soap when diluted that unfortunately does not stay cloudy.  The solids fall out over time or with dilution.  Makes good paste for Soap2Go, though. 

You don't need fractionated CO for clear soap.  76 degree works fine.  Soap, in my experience, is most often cloudy from one or more of the following causes:  superfat over 3%, jojoba oil, lard or tallow.  I may add to that list, but that is my list thus far.  If you save your paste for a while, be sure to not just use the top diluted by itself.  It will often turn cloudy on you.  My theory is that the superfat migrates to the top.

Dahlia- that is why I decided that the zap test is my sole safe/not safe determination.  Every other method leaves too much to chance.  Zap is not complicated.  It either does or does not.  And once I have zap tested soap, I feel safe giving it to others.


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## IrishLass

DeeAnna said:


> Because phenolphthalein turns pink at or above a pH of 8.2 in a dilute water solution. If the natural pH of the soap is higher than that -- and it often is -- then the phenol-p test that most soapers do will show pink. Like Susie, I zap test. I have phenol-p and use it once in awhile just for grins, but I don't take it seriously at all. I don't see the point in hyperventilating about a soap pH that is perfectly safe and normal -- the pH of most soap ranges from 9 to 11.



Thank you for that^^^^!  I must confess that one of my biggest pet peeves are the many liquid soapmakers on YouTube and the interwebs that (most likely unknowingly) perpetuate the (faulty) idea that one can test their paste by merely dropping a few drops of phenolphthalein on a naked glob of it, but that's not even the way to properly use phenol-p. But even if one does use it properly, the fact that phenol-p turns varying shades of pink to fuschia from a pH range of 8.2 to 12 and then goes colorless again at pH 13, show it to be not the best thing to test lye-based soap for active lye. I use the tongue-test on mine for that instead, too.




			
				Ipstephy85 said:
			
		

> I had the same thought that yeah solid oils are needed to bar soap but really what does it bring to LS?



Beautiful, pearly opacity ....if you're into opaque, creamy/pearly-looking liquid soap, that is, which, as it happens to be, I am!  Although I like my clear liquid soap, too, my most favorite is the liquid soap that I make with cocoa butter, shea butter and stearic acid added to the mix. My family and friends go nuts over it, too. It feels quite luxurious. 

 IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

_"...Thank you for that^^^^! I must confess that one of my biggest pet peeves are the many liquid soapmakers on YouTube and the interwebs that (most likely unknowingly) perpetuate the (faulty) idea that one can test their paste by merely dropping a few drops of phenolphthalein on a naked glob of it, but that's not even the way to properly use phenol-p...."_

Yes -- so true! FaceBook liquid soapers are also working hard to keep the phenol-p myth alive, at the cost of ruining a fair number of perfectly fine batches of LS and discouraging people from making LS. But it's not going to cause bodily harm or major disaster, so I pretty much keep my mouth shut on the matter anymore. Thank goodness most folks on SMF aren't too hooked on this.

Now, if someone tries to perpetuate the myth of using vinegar to deal with a lye spill on the body, I do speak up. For those who might be wondering, the correct answer is this: 

Never, never use vinegar if you get lye on your body. Rinse with running WATER ONLY, ideally for 10-15 minutes. Preferably clean and cool, but if all you have is a mud puddle ... USE IT. And if the burn is on your face, especially near the mouth, nose or eyes, or if the burn is deep or large ... get to a doctor for followup treatment. This is a serious chemical burn and nothing to blow off.

I'm off my soapbox! Back to the topic at hand. :razz:


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## Dahila

I had already scented soap in foaming pumps, and it is awesome) Will upload the pictures shortly


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## Susie

Yay!  You have no idea how happy it makes me when folks succeed!


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## Dahila

Yes, I know you are an awesome person Susie) Thank you for being so kind


----------



## shaan

I use soap calc lye calculator. Keep liquid at 38% and superfat 1% as my lye is only 85% pure..
For the first two times i used whole liquid part as glycerin,the next two times i used half water half glycerin. 
I use pomace as it is much lower in cost than virgin olive oil.
Now,what i do is-
- melt my oils in crockpot.
-mix lye and glycerin/water together.bring it to boil while continuously mixing and it gets completely clear.
- pour it in the oils and mix everything with whisk.
- after around 20 mins of mixing and going through different textures and colors it turns to a thick,white paste..
- now,i got this each time. First time i kept the crockpot on during the whole process.so it turned to a transparent paste in an hour.
Second and third time i turned the crockpot off as soon as i added the lye sol,and mixed it with crockpot off..but it again stopped at the same white paste stage..i thought leave it on its own..but nothing changed till next day,it even got harder..so i cooked it till vaseline like the next day.
For the fourth time, i did not use crockpot at all. I melted my oils in a stainless steel pot,then added lye to it,whisked it..but again it turned to a white thick paste turning harder..so i dumped in crockpot and again cooked it till Vaseline like stage.. hmmmm.. 
Thats it.
And yes,then i added water multiplying by 0.75 of paste weight..let it sit whole night..mix it up next day,my paste gets very thick again after mixing,so i add more water...then add essential oils to it..and bottle it..and then i get honey colored thin liquid.


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## Dahila

I followed step by step Irsishlass tutorial.  It seems to work


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## FGOriold

I think some of you misunderstand the use of phenolphthalein in soapmaking. It is used to determine excess lye in your paste/soap not the overall pH. I use it successfully each and every time and never have and never will do a zap test on paste. It all comes down to the methods we choose and what we are comfortable with.  It was explained very will in a group discussion as such:

"pH doesn't matter as long as the soap is neutral. Phenolphthalein is a color indicator with a pH range of 10.0 - 8.3 and no that does not mean it turns pink at a pH over 10 and clear at a pH of 8.3. What it does mean is the phenolphthalin will indicate if there is excess lye in a formula by showing pink over a range of 10.0 - 8.3. A solution can show pink at a pH of 8.4 and another show clear at a pH of 10.0. The color change is dependent upon the balance between the acid and the alkali. If any alkali is left in the formula, the solution will remain pink until enough acid is introduced to the solution to neutralize the alkali. Soap will have a pH range as well depending upon the oils used in the formula and a pH meter will only measure for pH....so a 100% olive oil soap may still have excess alkali at a pH of 9.6 but a 100% coconut oil soap will be slightly superfatted at a pH of 9.6."

So some can use the zap test consistently and understand it and others can use the phenolphthalein consistently and successfully - it comes down to experience with each method.


----------



## Susie

It does indeed!  I can't wrap my mind around the whole pink/not so pink/clear thing of phenolpthalein.  Therefore, I am no help whatsoever to those who choose to test with it.  I can only help with zap/no zap as that is what I understand and have used successfully.  That is the best thing about a forum, many people contributing, so people get information they can understand and use.


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## DeeAnna

Yep, it's what works consistently and successfully for the person is the method to use.


----------



## lpstephy85

Not sure if I am on the right path. I mixed my oils and glycerin lye solution this morning and stick blended to a thick trace which is when I started to get the bubbles flying around my head. I never got a bubbly froth though that Irishlass mentioned. I figured since I had the flying bubbles I would cover it and let it rest. That was at noon eastern today and at 6:30 I still don't think it is a paste and was zappy. When I stirred it was a caramel color on top and a little thicker but then a thin darker liquid underneath. Wasn't able to get a picture. Is that normal?


----------



## DeeAnna

Since you haven't gotten a response by now, I'm going to offer my novice opinion. I'm thinking if you can get the thin layer mixed back into the thicker part, that would be a good thing. You may be getting some separation of the fats and lye solution, and you don't want that. Then just cover it and check on it tomorrow. It may be saponifying on the slower side, and there's nothing wrong with that ... but if I were you, I'd sure be impatient for it to do its thing!


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## lpstephy85

DeeAnna said:


> Since you haven't gotten a response by now, I'm going to offer my novice opinion. I'm thinking if you can get the thin layer mixed back into the thicker part, that would be a good thing. You may be getting some separation of the fats and lye solution, and you don't want that. Then just cover it and check on it tomorrow. It may be saponifying on the slower side, and there's nothing wrong with that ... but if I were you, I'd sure be impatient for it to do its thing!




Lol, yeah I have been pretty impatient with it! I stirred it a couple of times to get it back together but whatever. I am just going to leave it alone until the morning. HAPPY NEW YEAR!


----------



## CookbookChef

Hi Susie, on post 233 of this whole thread, you said the following:

"If it is still zappy, put your paste back into the crock pot on low and add oil(either CO or OO) a teaspoon at the time, stirring and heating for at least half an hour between additions until it stops zapping."

So, I just don't want to get myself confused. Are you saying that I could of totally avoided using the Borax altogether if I just would of stayed with it? I was saying before your post of 233 that I was going to add oil to my paste as it was so zappy. I did that, twice, and it was still very very zappy. I ended up needing to add Borax to it. So, are you saying if I would of just kept up with it, no matter how many additions off oil and no matter how many hours it would of taken, that I would eventually have a neutral paste? I just want to make sure I understand you, cause if possible, I NEVER want to add Borax every again. I liked it, but it gave me such trouble in the thickness of the soap in the dilution of it. 
Thank you so much Susie!!!


----------



## FGOriold

lpstephy85 said:


> Not sure if I am on the right path. I mixed my oils and glycerin lye solution this morning and stick blended to a thick trace which is when I started to get the bubbles flying around my head. I never got a bubbly froth though that Irishlass mentioned. I figured since I had the flying bubbles I would cover it and let it rest. That was at noon eastern today and at 6:30 I still don't think it is a paste and was zappy. When I stirred it was a caramel color on top and a little thicker but then a thin darker liquid underneath. Wasn't able to get a picture. Is that normal?




Oftentimes when you use the glycerin method, you can stick blend for too long and you are ultimately stick blending finished soap (since the glycerin method speeds up the entire process, based on your formula and temperature, it can be done in as little as 15 minutes).  When this happens you end up with a frothy or foamy layer on top and a darker and thicker more liquid layer on the bottom. This is ok and it will dilute just fine. If it was still zappy at this point, you may have used too much lye.


----------



## FGOriold

CookbookChef said:


> Hi Susie, on post 233 of this whole thread, you said the following:
> 
> "If it is still zappy, put your paste back into the crock pot on low and add oil(either CO or OO) a teaspoon at the time, stirring and heating for at least half an hour between additions until it stops zapping."
> 
> So, I just don't want to get myself confused. Are you saying that I could of totally avoided using the Borax altogether if I just would of stayed with it? I was saying before your post of 233 that I was going to add oil to my paste as it was so zappy. I did that, twice, and it was still very very zappy. I ended up needing to add Borax to it. So, are you saying if I would of just kept up with it, no matter how many additions off oil and no matter how many hours it would of taken, that I would eventually have a neutral paste? I just want to make sure I understand you, cause if possible, I NEVER want to add Borax every again. I liked it, but it gave me such trouble in the thickness of the soap in the dilution of it.
> Thank you so much Susie!!!



If you do not want to have to neutralize your soap for the excess lye with borax or other additives, then try to formulate with a small superfat from the beginning and make sure you are measuring very carefully (in grams is best). If your soap paste ends up with a lye excess, adding oils will help because you are giving that lye something to saponify and use up, but you no longer have control over any excess superfat you may end up with which could bring you additional problems down the line with that excess oil floating to the top of your finished soap.

All in all, this sounds like it has been great learning experience for you - the best way to learn.


----------



## lpstephy85

View attachment 11425


So this is what I woke up to (those are marks from my whisk) so it is very thick and still zappy. I know everything was measured to a T so I don't see how I could have used too much lye and I know my scale is ok because I check it every time is use it with a nickel. I think I will just let it sit longer and see if it is still zappy later. Should I leave it off heat or turn the crockpot on?


----------



## Susie

FGOriold said:


> If you do not want to have to neutralize your soap for the excess lye with borax or other additives, then try to formulate with a small superfat from the beginning and make sure you are measuring very carefully (in grams is best). If your soap paste ends up with a lye excess, adding oils will help because you are giving that lye something to saponify and use up, but you no longer have control over any excess superfat you may end up with which could bring you additional problems down the line with that excess oil floating to the top of your finished soap.
> 
> All in all, this sounds like it has been great learning experience for you - the best way to learn.



^What Faith said!

I have only had to add oils once.  I learned from that experience that a small superfat is best.  But to avoid over superfatting, you add *small* amounts of fat, and give it time to saponify between additions.  I add, stir, wait half an hour, test.  And repeat as needed.

But you need to figure out why you had lye heavy soap to begin with.  Did you intentionally use a negative superfat, or did something happen along the way?  The best way to avoid having to go through this is to have some superfat to begin with.


----------



## Susie

lpstephy85 said:


> View attachment 11425
> 
> 
> So this is what I woke up to (those are marks from my whisk) so it is very thick and still zappy. I know everything was measured to a T so I don't see how I could have used too much lye and I know my scale is ok because I check it every time is use it with a nickel. I think I will just let it sit longer and see if it is still zappy later. Should I leave it off heat or turn the crockpot on?



I can't see the pic, but your description is great, so I don't really need to see the pic.  I have a few questions so that I know exactly what is going on before we go any further.  I would rather ask than assume anything. 

I know that you posted a recipe in post #223, and asked about frac. CO later.  Is that the recipe you used, and did you make _any_ other additions/changes?  What method did you use, and any other additions?

Your soap should not be zappy if you used that recipe, and your scale is good(you check it, so I know it is correct).  So, we have to start looking at the beginning and go from there.


----------



## lpstephy85

I did make a change but that change was ran through Soapcalc:

15% castor oil
23% CO 76
62% OO

Glycerin 10.6oz
KOH 3.55oz
Superfat 3%
90% purity checked

Is it possible that my lye has a higher purity?

I added the lye to the glycerin at room temp than boiled until clear and free of flakes. Then added my lye solution to my melted oils and hand stirred for a couple of minutes and then used the SB for a couple of more until it reached a thick trace. I then went back to the whisk and stirred until I saw the flying bubbles. Once I saw that I put the lid on it and kept the crockpot on warm since my basement is cold. I left it alone for a couple of hours but still didn't get a paste consistency so about 4-5 hours in as I was leaving for the night I shut the crockpot off.


----------



## FGOriold

lpstephy85 said:


> I did make a change but that change was ran through Soapcalc:
> 
> 15% castor oil
> 23% CO 76
> 62% OO
> 
> Glycerin 10.6oz
> KOH 3.55oz
> Superfat 3%
> 90% purity checked
> 
> Is it possible that my lye has a higher purity?
> 
> I added the lye to the glycerin at room temp than boiled until clear and free of flakes. Then added my lye solution to my melted oils and hand stirred for a couple of minutes and then used the SB for a couple of more until it reached a thick trace. I then went back to the whisk and stirred until I saw the flying bubbles. Once I saw that I put the lid on it and kept the crockpot on warm since my basement is cold. I left it alone for a couple of hours but still didn't get a paste consistency so about 4-5 hours in as I was leaving for the night I shut the crockpot off.



Can you post your oils amounts in quantities used and not just the percentages?


----------



## lpstephy85

Here is the amounts:

2.4 oz Castor
3.7 CO 76
9.9 OO 

Here is the pic I tried posting earlier:


----------



## CookbookChef

FGOriold said:


> If you do not want to have to neutralize your soap for the excess lye with borax or other additives, then try to formulate with a small superfat from the beginning and make sure you are measuring very carefully (in grams is best). If your soap paste ends up with a lye excess, adding oils will help because you are giving that lye something to saponify and use up, but you no longer have control over any excess superfat you may end up with which could bring you additional problems down the line with that excess oil floating to the top of your finished soap.
> 
> All in all, this sounds like it has been great learning experience for you - the best way to learn.



I always convert to Grams...and I always do a superfat of 3%. So...saying that....is it TRUE I can just keep slowly adding oil, a teaspoon at a time FOREVER until is not zappy anymore? The term FOREVER simply means, as many half hour increments as needed...be it a couple of hours...be it all day...be it a few days....Ya, I guess I am asking if I follow thru, would it of come to neutral FOR SURE without using the Borax...ya, I will totally do everything to avoid being high on the Zappy ever again, saying that....I just want to know a back up before I get to it. I NEVER want to NEED to add Borax ever again. I want to avoid adding that and anything. Thank you So Much!!!


----------



## CookbookChef

Susie said:


> I can't see the pic, but your description is great, so I don't really need to see the pic.  I have a few questions so that I know exactly what is going on before we go any further.  I would rather ask than assume anything.
> 
> I know that you posted a recipe in post #223, and asked about frac. CO later.  Is that the recipe you used, and did you make _any_ other additions/changes?  What method did you use, and any other additions?
> 
> Your soap should not be zappy if you used that recipe, and your scale is good(you check it, so I know it is correct).  So, we have to start looking at the beginning and go from there.



hey Good Point Susie!!!Do you think its possible my Scale could of been going bad?? The reason I now ask is you got me thinking...about the Scale. The reason I bring this up is if my memory serves me right, I remember that I had one of those small Glycerin bottles, I bought from Walmart. Well, it stated it was 6 Ounces on the side of the Bottle. But when I would POUR all the glycerin into my pan, I noticed it saying on the Scale that I had 7.50 Ounces, instead of 6 ounces printed on the label. And what is weird, I did NOT notice any other measurements being off...just the Glycerin, so I did not THINK I had any problems. WELL, now I am reconsidering this....hhhmmmm, cause if my Scale is off, that would mean if its measuring an extra 1 1/2 Ounces of Glycerin, I COULD off ended up adding an extra 1 1/2 Ounces of Extra KOH!! OH NO.....hhmmm. My Husband said that HE THINKS that when a battery will start to go out, it can do weird things to a scale, like make the scale to start weigh false amounts. Shucks....just to be sure, I don't think I will do even one more batch of ANYTHING before I go replace the battery's with some fresh NEW ones...just to be sure!!


----------



## FGOriold

When I run your recipe through the Summerbee Meadow Calc with a 0% superfat, I get 3.47 KOH and you used 3.55. This is the only calc I use and from that perspective it looks like your formulated with a lye excess of about 3%.


----------



## FGOriold

CookbookChef said:


> hey Good Point Susie!!!Do you think its possible my Scale could of been going bad?? The reason I now ask is you got me thinking...about the Scale. The reason I bring this up is if my memory serves me right, I remember that I had one of those small Glycerin bottles, I bought from Walmart. Well, it stated it was 6 Ounces on the side of the Bottle. But when I would POUR all the glycerin into my pan, I noticed it saying on the Scale that I had 7.50 Ounces, instead of 6 ounces printed on the label. And what is weird, I did NOT notice any other measurements being off...just the Glycerin, so I did not THINK I had any problems. WELL, now I am reconsidering this....hhhmmmm, cause if my Scale is off, that would mean if its measuring an extra 1 1/2 Ounces of Glycerin, I COULD off ended up adding an extra 1 1/2 Ounces of Extra KOH!! OH NO.....hhmmm. My Husband said that HE THINKS that when a battery will start to go out, it can do weird things to a scale, like make the scale to start weigh false amounts. Shucks....just to be sure, I don't think I will do even one more batch of ANYTHING before I go replace the battery's with some fresh NEW ones...just to be sure!!



You have to remember that liquids contents are stated by volume not weight. So your glycerin was correct in that it was 6 ounces by volume, but can easily weigh more or less than that.


----------



## IrishLass

Ipstephy- is it firm underneath the white bubbles? 


 IrishLass


----------



## lpstephy85

IrishLass said:


> Ipstephy- is it firm underneath the white bubbles?
> 
> 
> IrishLass



It's a firm, thick taffy consistency.


----------



## IrishLass

shaan said:


> I use soap calc lye calculator. Keep liquid at 38% and superfat 1% as my lye is only 85% pure..
> For the first two times i used whole liquid part as glycerin,the next two times i used half water half glycerin.
> I use pomace as it is much lower in cost than virgin olive oil.
> Now,what i do is-
> - melt my oils in crockpot.
> -mix lye and glycerin/water together.bring it to boil while continuously mixing and it gets completely clear.
> - pour it in the oils and mix everything with whisk.
> - after around 20 mins of mixing and going through different textures and colors it turns to a thick,white paste..
> - now,i got this each time. First time i kept the crockpot on during the whole process.so it turned to a transparent paste in an hour.
> Second and third time i turned the crockpot off as soon as i added the lye sol,and mixed it with crockpot off..but it again stopped at the same white paste stage..i thought leave it on its own..but nothing changed till next day,it even got harder..so i cooked it till vaseline like the next day.
> For the fourth time, i did not use crockpot at all. I melted my oils in a stainless steel pot,then added lye to it,whisked it..but again it turned to a white thick paste turning harder..so i dumped in crockpot and again cooked it till Vaseline like stage.. hmmmm..
> Thats it.
> And yes,then i added water multiplying by 0.75 of paste weight..let it sit whole night..mix it up next day,my paste gets very thick again after mixing,so i add more water...then add essential oils to it..and bottle it..and then i get honey colored thin liquid.




Hi Shaan! Thanks for clarifying. That helps tremendously. :smile:

Well, when all is said and done after having re-calculated everything out a few times to take into account your 85% lye purity on both SoapCalc and Summerbee and also taking into account their different, individual default purity settings, it turns out your 117g KOH amount for your recipe is spot on with a 3% superfat according to Summerbee, but your total up-front water amount still turns out to be too low- 40g too low according to Summerbee. Next time, I would use 340g total liquid instead of 300g. I can't stress enough how important one's total up-front liquid amount is. That's one of the reasons why I don't like using SoapCalc for my liquid soap batches. Summerbee gives me a higher (and better) water amount, which makes things proceed quite nice for my liquid soap.

Now, onto your method.....

I've never tried dissolving my KOH in a boiling mixture of glycerin and water before. I normally mix my KOH in 100% glycerin only and then boil it until dissolved, except for that one recent time that I dissolved the KOH in an equal amount of room temp water first before adding my usual full amount glycerin to it (all at room temp- no boiling it). That is probably the reason why you are getting a white colored paste instead of a transparent-looking paste, because that's what happened to me when I dissolved my KOH in an equal amount of water first- I ended up with white/opaque paste instead of my usual transparent paste with this formula, but don't let the white/opaque color of the paste worry you one little bit. It's still all perfectly good and normal, and will turn clear when diluted. :smile:

Once the soap has become paste (even though the paste is white/opaque), you don't need to cook it further to make it go transparent. In other words, having clear/transparent paste is not a magical goal to be attained or anything like that. The important thing is to end up with a paste-like consistency, no matter what color it might be. If your paste zaps, you can apply heat to it to speed up the saponification process to zapless-ness if you desire, but it's not necessary. Given enough time at room temp, it'll eventually become tongue-neutral if all was weighed correctly up front. Once you have paste and it does not zap, then you can dilute, and it will dilute out clear.

Since you used less water up front to make the paste than I would have used for your size batch and 85% lye purity,etc.. this will throw things off a bit, and the dilution rate of .75 water to paste that I like to use will more than likely not give you the same results that I normally get, which means that you will have to play around and make adjustments to the dilution rate. If you find that your finished soap is too thin, you can always warm it up a little with the cover off to evaporate off some of the excess liquid before bottling.

HTH!
IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass

lpstephy85 said:


> It's a firm, thick taffy consistency.
> 
> 
> View attachment 11430



 Perfect- I would call that success!

 IrishLass


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## lpstephy85

FGOriold said:


> When I run your recipe through the Summerbee Meadow Calc with a 0% superfat, I get 3.47 KOH and you used 3.55. This is the only calc I use and from that perspective it looks like your formulated with a lye excess of about 3%.




I guess I need to get used to SBM calc then! Do I need to enter in all of the info or can I just enter in the ounces of my oils, select that I am doing LS and then calculate? 

I melted down my paste and added an ounce of OO so we will see if that helps.


----------



## IrishLass

Ipstephy- on Summerbee's Advanced Calculator, these are the only things you need to click:

First, click that you will be making liquid soap. 
Next, type in that you will be using 100% Potassium Hydroxide
Then skip over everything on down to the Superfat box and enter in your superfat.
Then skip over everything until you get to the place you enter in your recipe, and enter in your oils/fats.
Then click on the grey box off to the right that says "Click Here When Done'

That's all you need to do. A page will then pop up with all your recipe amounts. If it works for you like it does for me, you will have to scroll up to see the recipe amounts.

I take the water amount it gives me and sub it one for one with glycerin.

HTH
IrishLass


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## lpstephy85

Thank you Irishlass! It was a little too intimidating so I stuck with SoapCalc. Hopefully adding some OO will take up that excess lye.


----------



## fuzz-juzz

Does anyone know why is there always a slight discrepancy between KOH amount I'm getting from Summer Bee Meadows gives and SoapCalc.
I know first one is recommended, but I tried to plug in same recipe into SoapCalc and seem to always get bigger KOH amount and it's around 4%. For example, first one will give me 219gr and SoapCalc 228gr? I am pretty sure I plug in 90% KOH both times. I've put in 0% SF as well.
As I can see few soapers might have had the similar issue, some of their batchers ended up lye heavy using SoapCalc lye calculator.
And I have one more question. Has anyone used rice bran oil in liquid soap? Google search says it will possibly make clear soap?
I really like it in CP and use it in almost all recipes.


----------



## FGOriold

fuzz-juzz said:


> Does anyone know why is there always a slight discrepancy between KOH amount I'm getting from Summer Bee Meadows gives and SoapCalc.
> I know first one is recommended, but I tried to plug in same recipe into SoapCalc and seem to always get bigger KOH amount and it's around 4%. For example, first one will give me 219gr and SoapCalc 228gr? I am pretty sure I plug in 90% KOH both times. I've put in 0% SF as well.
> As I can see few soapers might have had the similar issue, some of their batchers ended up lye heavy using SoapCalc lye calculator.
> And I have one more question. Has anyone used rice bran oil in liquid soap? Google search says it will possibly make clear soap?
> I really like it in CP and use it in almost all recipes.



1.  They use different SAP values for the oils which can cause differences
2.  Summerbee calculates with a small lye excess for liquid soap

My suggestion is to find a calculator that works for you consistently and stick with it. No matter what the calc says for lye amounts, it will never be exact since your oils may not have the exact same SAP values nor will your KOH purity be exactly 90% or 100%. Just know what to do if you end up with an unintended superfat or an unintended lye excess.


----------



## Susie

SBM does not calculate with a lye excess.  You enter the superfat just like on SoapCalc.  And please note that SBM actually calls for less KOH than SoapCalc.


----------



## Susie

FGOriold said:


> You have to remember that liquids contents are stated by volume not weight. So your glycerin was correct in that it was 6 ounces by volume, but can easily weigh more or less than that.



Huh?  Everything I have read and seen shows water and glycerin being weighed, not measured.


----------



## FGOriold

Susie said:


> Huh?  Everything I have read and seen shows water and glycerin being weighed, not measured.



When we measure ingredients to use for soap making we weigh them.  Liquids packaged for purchase are packaged via volume not weight. So my point is if you purchase a container of glycerin that's states 8 fluid ounces it does not mean it weighs 8 ounces but has a volume of 8 ounces.


----------



## FGOriold

Susie said:


> SBM does not calculate with a lye excess.  You enter the superfat just like on SoapCalc.  And please note that SBM actually calls for less KOH than SoapCalc.



Yes, it is calibrated for a small lye excess - I will see if I can find the post on their website where the owner spells it out.

Here you go:
http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/sbm-liquid-soap-calculator-neutralization-needed


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## shaan

Thanx so much Irishlass for your help..keeping everything in mind,i will give it one more try,then report back!


----------



## shaan

fuzz-juzz said:


> And I have one more question. Has anyone used rice bran oil in liquid soap? Google search says it will possibly make clear soap?
> I really like it in CP and use it in almost all recipes.


Yes i have used rice bran oil at 10% with sunflower oil,canol oil,castor,olive and coconut oil.. yes,lots of oil..just to save on other oils  .. it turned out very nice and clear till i added essential oils.


----------



## shaan

Yes i have used rice bran oil at 10% with sunflower oil,canol oil,castor,olive and coconut oil.. yes,lots of oil..just to save on other oils  .. it turned out very nice and clear till i added essential oils


----------



## DeeAnna

Susie said:


> Huh?  Everything I have read and seen shows water and glycerin being weighed, not measured.



Here's the point I think Faith is commenting on: Cookbookchef said this:
"...I noticed it saying on the Scale that I had 7.50 Ounces, instead of 6 ounces printed on the label...."

The number on the castor oil label would be ounces by volume. Faith is right that the weight in ounces will be different than the volume in ounces. 

Only water has the same weight and volume in ounces. For example, 8 ounces volume = 8 ounces weight ... but only for water. 

The weight for the castor should actually be a smaller number than the volume, not a larger number, since castor is less dense than water.

Did you tare the scale before weighing the castor? The extra weight might be the added container weight, if you didn't tare out the container.

And, yes, scales can do odd things when the batteries are low.


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## CookbookChef

Susie said:


> Huh?  Everything I have read and seen shows water and glycerin being weighed, not measured.



Ya Susie, on my bottle of Glycerin from Walmart, it states WEIGHT AMOUNT 6 OUNCES...but when I weigh it out by pouring it out, it was 7.50 ounces....saying that, MOST of the time I pour it out and weigh it, and its dead on...6 Ounces...I THINK if something is in a container and says 6 ounces it needs to say 6 ounces by Volume, not by weight. Cause if it says 6 Ounces by WEIGHT, then a person believes that is what it is....hmmm, I kind a think that is right. I kinda think that the company is not stupid, and they put that it is a WEIGHT amount on the Glycerin, I think if they MENT it was 6 ounces by volume, that they would of stated that on the label....just saying. In other words, I tend to believe my scale is off, more than the bottle that stated to have 6 ounces in WEIGHT was really labled wrong, and has 7.50 ounces in a bottle labeled for 6 ounces. I do think my scale is off. Just to be sure...I will place NEW batteries into my scale and first weigh out a bottle of Glycerin stating to have 6 Ounces on it...then, I will change the batteries, and RE WEIGH it...and see if it is any different. Ya, right now it states 7.50 ounces for a bottle of 6 Ounces of Glycerin. I will get batteries in the next few days.


----------



## CookbookChef

DeeAnna said:


> Here's the point I think Faith is commenting on: Cookbookchef said this:
> "...I noticed it saying on the Scale that I had 7.50 Ounces, instead of 6 ounces printed on the label...."
> 
> The number on the castor oil label would be ounces by volume. Faith is right that the weight in ounces will be different than the volume in ounces.
> 
> Only water has the same weight and volume in ounces. For example, 8 ounces volume = 8 ounces weight ... but only for water.
> 
> The weight for the castor should actually be a smaller number than the volume, not a larger number, since castor is less dense than water.
> 
> Did you tare the scale before weighing the castor? The extra weight might be the added container weight, if you didn't tare out the container.
> 
> And, yes, scales can do odd things when the batteries are low.




it was Glycerin, and yes I use the scale right. so, it must be the batteries...I will do testing and let you know what I find out AFTER I get new batteries


----------



## CookbookChef

shaan said:


> Yes i have used rice bran oil at 10% with sunflower oil,canol oil,castor,olive and coconut oil.. yes,lots of oil..just to save on other oils  .. it turned out very nice and clear till i added essential oils



yes, essential oils can always change things, OR NOT...so, its best to take out a portion of the soap, and do a test with the essential oil that you want to use, or fragrance oil, and test it into the soap. Better to ruin a small amount, then to add it to a whole batch and have it go weird. If you cant use that soap after it got changed by the EO, then you can use it for personal hand washing, or body wash...or add it into a batch of homemade laundry soap. either way, the RECKED soap, can still be used, somehow


----------



## DeeAnna

I agree about the small lye excess for SBM even though you choose zero superfat. I have never been quite comfortable with the reasons why they do that, but hey whatever.

That still doesn't answer the question about why SoapCalc is giving higher KOH numbers yet. I haven't dug into the math too far, but I suspect it's that darn 90% KOH purity check box. You can either get the KOH amount based on 100% or on 90%, but to be honest, I think the KOH purity from various suppliers varies a lot more than NaOH purity. 

I seem to recall Shaan is using 85%. (Am I right, Shaan?) I use the Lye Guy KOH at 97% (he and I had a discussion about that recently). Essential Depot is running 90% according to their online certificate of analysis so Soapcalc should be good for ED KOH. 

What other suppliers are y'all getting your KOH from?


----------



## CookbookChef

FGOriold said:


> When we measure ingredients to use for soap making we weigh them.  Liquids packaged for purchase are packaged via volume not weight. So my point is if you purchase a container of glycerin that's states 8 fluid ounces it does not mean it weighs 8 ounces but has a volume of 8 ounces.



I dont know FGOriold, I might need to humbly disagree with you. I have seen OFTEN where when it is a bottle that is an amount that is VOLUME, it will state on the label : 6 Ounces by Volume
Where if it is by Weight, it will state by Weight. Just saying, this has been my take on it. Even myself, when I send a 12 Ounce container of sugar scrub, I will CHOOSE one or the other. If I choose to WEIGH my product out, and give it as a give of 12 Ounces, I will state on the container: 12 Ounces 
If I give it by Volume, I will state on my container: 12 Ounces by Volume, Not by Weight. I do this so that its CLEAR to my friend what they are getting, or if I sell it, I for sure do that. Some ppl will look at a half empty container and get mad, but if you tell them it was by WEIGHT, they understand. But if my Product is super light, 12 Ounces may take 2 Containers to use up compared to the one container of something heavy. I had a customer that wanted 12 ounces by weight of a fluffy cream I made, well it took 2...12 Ounce containers to give her the 12 ounces that she wanted, cause their was so much air in it. I ended up using ONE 24 Ounce Container, and wrote on the container, 12 Ounces by Volume, not by Weight!!
So, for Liquid, you are saying that it is a given, that it is done by VOLUME, That has not been my experience with liquids. So, when the Glycerin states 6 Ounces on the Bottle, UNLESS they state it was filled by Volume, I would assume it is by weight, cause for one thing, it says WEIGHT right on the bottle. Alot of my recipes need 6 ounces of Glycerin exactly. In the past, it has NEVER been an issue to use a bottle of the Glycerin I buy from Walmart, cause 6 Ounces weighs out at 6 Ounces on my scale. It just started weighing it at 7.50 Ounces....I do think it is my Scale that is wrong, and not the labeling. I respectfully disagree with you, Humbly and peaceably.


----------



## fuzz-juzz

Thanks all for the input. It kind of make sense to me now. 
My worry is that I will end up with a high % SF soap which will split and be cloudy, etc., or to end up with soap that's too caustic.
But I guess, it's just trial and error, I will try and make few smaller batches and go from there.
I was ordering my KOH today and realised my supplier actually states it's "> 90% pure". But I will email them just to make sure, I hope they have idea how much % exactly.


----------



## Susie

FGOriold said:


> Yes, it is calibrated for a small lye excess - I will see if I can find the post on their website where the owner spells it out.
> 
> Here you go:
> http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/sbm-liquid-soap-calculator-neutralization-needed



I am going to quote the exact sentence they used so folks understand exactly what they said.

"This was done by taking into account the water content that is always
present in KOH flakes and by verifying the sap values of our oils by
making single-oil liq. soap batches with each of our oils."

This is why we don't have to click a 90% purity box on that site like you do on Soapcalc.  I still get consistently smaller amounts of KOH on SBM than SoapCalc with the 90% purity box checked.


----------



## Susie

fuzz-juzz said:


> Thanks all for the input. It kind of make sense to me now.
> My worry is that I will end up with a high % SF soap which will split and be cloudy, etc., or to end up with soap that's too caustic.
> But I guess, it's just trial and error, I will try and make few smaller batches and go from there.
> I was ordering my KOH today and realised my supplier actually states it's "> 90% pure". But I will email them just to make sure, I hope they have idea how much % exactly.



Just go with it being 90% pure.  By the time you open it and it sucks up some moisture from the air, it is going to be 90% or less.  If you live in a humid area, and don't make soap all that often, you may need to weigh the container after every batch and before the next batch to start figuring out if it continues to absorb moisture(that is what I have to do.)

Just keep that SF at 3% or less, and you should be fine.  Some FOs and EOs will cause some separation, so you may need to add some PS80 to those, but that part is trial and error.  Also, some oils cause cloudiness, lard, tallow, jojoba, probably some butters.  Write lots of notes so you know what FOs and EOs cause this.


----------



## Susie

CookbookChef said:


> it was Glycerin, and yes I use the scale right. so, it must be the batteries...I will do testing and let you know what I find out AFTER I get new batteries



I happened to have some Glycerin from Walmart that is unopened.  It is an 6 FL oz bottle.  I poured it out into a cup on the tared scale.  The contents weighed 6 oz.  You do need new batteries.


----------



## shaan

DeeAnna said:


> I
> 
> I seem to recall Shaan is using 85%. (Am I right, Shaan?) I use the Lye Guy KOH at 97% (he and I had a discussion about that recently). Essential Depot is running 90% according to their online certificate of analysis so Soapcalc should be good for ED KOH.
> 
> What other suppliers are y'all getting your KOH from?



Yes, i am the one using 85% pure KOH. And I think i am the only one here,using it.. but i calculated 0% superfat in soapcalc with only KOH(not selecting 90%) which gave exact amount that was needed for 85% pure KOH, at 3% superfat.


----------



## FGOriold

CookbookChef said:


> I dont know FGOriold, I might need to humbly disagree with you. I have seen OFTEN where when it is a bottle that is an amount that is VOLUME, it will state on the label : 6 Ounces by Volume
> Where if it is by Weight, it will state by Weight. Just saying, this has been my take on it. Even myself, when I send a 12 Ounce container of sugar scrub, I will CHOOSE one or the other. If I choose to WEIGH my product out, and give it as a give of 12 Ounces, I will state on the container: 12 Ounces
> If I give it by Volume, I will state on my container: 12 Ounces by Volume, Not by Weight. I do this so that its CLEAR to my friend what they are getting, or if I sell it, I for sure do that. Some ppl will look at a half empty container and get mad, but if you tell them it was by WEIGHT, they understand. But if my Product is super light, 12 Ounces may take 2 Containers to use up compared to the one container of something heavy. I had a customer that wanted 12 ounces by weight of a fluffy cream I made, well it took 2...12 Ounce containers to give her the 12 ounces that she wanted, cause their was so much air in it. I ended up using ONE 24 Ounce Container, and wrote on the container, 12 Ounces by Volume, not by Weight!!
> So, for Liquid, you are saying that it is a given, that it is done by VOLUME, That has not been my experience with liquids. So, when the Glycerin states 6 Ounces on the Bottle, UNLESS they state it was filled by Volume, I would assume it is by weight, cause for one thing, it says WEIGHT right on the bottle. Alot of my recipes need 6 ounces of Glycerin exactly. In the past, it has NEVER been an issue to use a bottle of the Glycerin I buy from Walmart, cause 6 Ounces weighs out at 6 Ounces on my scale. It just started weighing it at 7.50 Ounces....I do think it is my Scale that is wrong, and not the labeling. I respectfully disagree with you, Humbly and peaceably.



Well you can disagree with me all you want you can indicate how you would like manufacturers to fill and label their products, but it is the labeling laws that matter and that you need to understand. Liquids are sold by volume, solids are sold by weight - when it comes to bath and body products, that is part of the labeling laws so I assume it is the law for other products as well. And if you are in the US, you do not get to choose how you want to label the contents of your products, you must follow the labeling laws.  Solids are net weight, liquids are fluid weight (volume). I suggest reading up on it a bit more before continuing to label your products.  Here is a good place to start. www.mariegale.com.  If you are not in the US, I cannot comment on your countries laws.

While it may not make sense or seem possible that liquid volume would not be the same as liquid weight, as DeeAnna explained outside of water, it does. It may only be slight but liquids like solids have different densities making the amount of space they take up based on physical weight  vary amongst the different liquids. So when you see a bottle of liquid, you will see the measurement as fluid ounces or ml (or as you said "by volume"). When you see a solid product, it will be just be the net weight as the physical weight of the item.

Why fluids are required to be labeled as volume over physical weight is not something I can answer, but it is part of labeling laws and for the most part, the two should not bee too far off from each other which cannot be said for solids or semi-solids. Think about an ounce of feathers vs. an ounce of rocks. They obviously physically weigh the same (1 ounce), but have a different volume in the amount of space needed for each physical ounce. Like I said, liquids won't have as wide a variation in volume vs. weight as solids can.

So, I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to explain why when you weight out the liquid, it may vary from what the label says the contents are as you are using two different ways to measure the contents.


----------



## fuzz-juzz

Thank you Susie! I appreciate all the advice. 
I've put in order today and will hopefully have everything by next weekend.
I also purchased emulsifier, it's PS85 though but apparently does the same as PS80.
I will start with basic recipe posted here, with maybe a bit of NG and BB FOs and see how I go. I might post a picture if it's not complete failure.


----------



## FGOriold

DeeAnna said:


> I agree about the small lye excess for SBM even though you choose zero superfat. I have never been quite comfortable with the reasons why they do that, but hey whatever.
> 
> That still doesn't answer the question about why SoapCalc is giving higher KOH numbers yet. I haven't dug into the math too far, but I suspect it's that darn 90% KOH purity check box. You can either get the KOH amount based on 100% or on 90%, but to be honest, I think the KOH purity from various suppliers varies a lot more than NaOH purity.
> 
> I seem to recall Shaan is using 85%. (Am I right, Shaan?) I use the Lye Guy KOH at 97% (he and I had a discussion about that recently). Essential Depot is running 90% according to their online certificate of analysis so Soapcalc should be good for ED KOH.
> 
> What other suppliers are y'all getting your KOH from?



This is an excellent point regarding the lye purity and how that can greatly vary between suppliers and cause problems with our soaps. It can even change if your lye is stored in such a way that it absorbs water from the air making it even less pure. 

I use lye from The Lye Guy and stick with summerbeemeadow calc using a 1 - 3% superfat and get consistent results in my soap not being lye heavy and not needing to neutralize. However, if I ever make a mistake or am off for some reason, if my soap ends up lye heavy, I do have additives on hand to deal with it instead of waste the whole batch. Things happen no matter how careful we are in choosing and weighing our raw materials and it is really important to  know how do deal with and fix a lye heavy soap.

I always recommend people find a calculator that works for them consistently based on their raw ingredients and stick with it because you will get those lye calculation variations with each one and it will drive you crazy going back and forth. 

When it comes to liquid amounts - Soapcalc will default to about 2x your KOH, Summerbee will default to 3 X your KOH. Both will work but will make the creation of your paste "different". Less water = faster trace but stiffer paste. More water = slower trace but more fluid paste (until evaporation removes the extra water) - but as many people know, each formulation is different and your paste will vary greatly for a variety of reasons, not just water amount used. One of the reasons why the glycerin method paste is usually very fluid, is that the glycerin will not evaporate out of your paste like water will.


----------



## FGOriold

..... and one more thing regarding the lye calculations.
The higher the purity of KOH used, the less KOH required, the lower the purity, the more KOH require to saponify the same amount of oils.

100% purity - lower lye amounts needed as it is assumed there is no inactive ingredients present in the KOH
97% purity - more lye needed than 100% purity
90% purity - even more lye needed than 97% or 100% purity

So depending on what purity is being assumed in the calculator, the amount of needed lye returned will be different. That is why you can enter the exact same oils in Summerbee, Soapcalc 100% and Soapcalc 90% and you will get a different amount of lye needed.


----------



## IrishLass

FGOriold said:


> Solids are net weight, liquids are fluid weight (volume). .



From what I understand, that might or might not actually be the case. I haven't read what Marie Gale's take on this is, but I was just reading the fine print of the actual FDA regs on the FDA.Gov site and there seems to be a little bit of wiggle room on this, for they have a whole section of the regs where they state exemptions to the rule:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.105

One of those exemptions relates to substances that are viscous in nature, which would explain why my liquid, pourable honey and agave nectar are labeled specifically by weight as opposed to fl. ounces, even though they are in an obvious fluid state (albeit thick/viscous). 

Although the above relates to US food packaging laws, it seems to also be the same for cosmetic labeling (this is also taken from the FDA site in regards to cosmetic products):

*



Product Consistency: Unless there is a firmly established, general consumer usage or trade custom to the contrary, the statement must be in terms of fluid measure if the cosmetic is liquid and in terms of weight if the cosmetic is solid, semi-solid, viscous, or a mixture of solid and liquid. Fluid measures must express the volume at 68°F (20°C). The customary net contents declaration for aerosol products is in terms of weight.


Click to expand...

*


> *Systems: Weight is expressed in terms of avoirdupois pound and ounce. Fluid measures are expressed in terms of the U.S. gallon, quart, pint and fluid ounce. Net contents may additionally be stated also in the metric system.
> 
> Unit Terms: The term "net weight" or "net wt." must be used in conjunction with a weight statement, and the term "net contents," "net" or nothing must be used in connection with a liquid statement.
> 
> Additional abbreviations are for: weight - wt., fluid - fl., gallon - gal., quart - qt., pint - pt., ounce - oz., pound - lb.
> 
> In case of a weight ounce statement, the term "oz." is sufficient. A fluid ounce is expressed as "fl. oz."*


 
 Don't know if that helps at all or not, but I just thought I'd post what I found.

IrishLass


----------



## lpstephy85

I am at work right now, but this morning before I left I zap tested my LS paste and I didn't feel an instant zap but it had a sweet taste and then a couple of seconds later my tongue started to burn a little and feel irritated until I rinsed my mouth out with cold water. I will test it again when I get home when I have more time to play with it. I really hope just adding more oil a little at a time works. I think I will try another batch this weekend using SBM advanced calc and see if I have the same issue.


----------



## Susie

lpstephy85 said:


> I am at work right now, but this morning before I left I zap tested my LS paste and I didn't feel an instant zap but it had a sweet taste and then a couple of seconds later my tongue started to burn a little and feel irritated until I rinsed my mouth out with cold water. I will test it again when I get home when I have more time to play with it. I really hope just adding more oil a little at a time works. I think I will try another batch this weekend using SBM advanced calc and see if I have the same issue.



If you did not get an immediate zap, you are golden!  Soap does not taste great, but it does the job.  And the irritation is OK.  That immediate zap is unmistakable.


----------



## lpstephy85

Susie said:


> If you did not get an immediate zap, you are golden!  Soap does not taste great, but it does the job.  And the irritation is OK.  That immediate zap is unmistakable.




I lied, still a slight zap. More OO added


----------



## fuzz-juzz

....


----------



## shaan

OMG! Again i am confused.. after reading the link shared by fuzz-juzz, if i calculate my lye at 3% superfat by selecting only KOH, i get 99 grams of lye to be used.. now my lye 85% pure.so i have to use 15% lye access? That wud be 99×0.15=14.85. So the lye i need in my recipe shud be 99+14.85=113.85g. And water amount to be 113.85×3=341.55 grams? M i correct?


----------



## Susie

How many times in this forum do you read us telling people to go figure out the lye amount by hand?  None.  Use a good lye calculator, and stick with it.   

There is no sense adding more complication to your life.  If fuzz-juzz wants to go figure it out, good for her.  Not me.  Not most people on here.  And if you go through these forums, you will see very, very few people recommending that compared to how often you read us telling people to find a good calculator and stick with it.

Also, please note that that person is selling classes and eConsults.  It benefits them to make it seem as complicated as possible to sell more classes and consults.


----------



## fuzz-juzz

There really is no need to cause a stir, I meant to use it as maybe a double check method when using few lye calculators and getting different lye amount, not as a stand alone method. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.
If yours maths is bad, don't do it. Mine's decent. I had a bit of fun with it today, since realising different lye calculators give different lye amounts.
And of course I won't follow it, if for example I get 500gr of lye and calculator says 250gr.
As I can understand here, some of you guys just "wing it", and I was told that couple of days ago by one of the soapers. Experiment with different KOH purity % (as KOH differs from supplier to supplier) and different lye calculators, neutralisers, etc, until perfect balance is reached. I just don't want to make stabs in the dark forever, I only have limited time and limited supplies.
Shaan, I'm sorry if I confused you, it's maybe better to stick to the lye calculator. I can't say if you are right or wrong, I don't have your full recipe and it wouldn't be wise, I don't want to be flamed further for something I had only best intentions.


----------



## DeeAnna

Ah, hey there. Deep calming breath please! It's a gray, snow-dusted Saturday morning here in the landlocked middle of the USA. I'm visiting my favorite thread and hoping to find some fun stuff to lighten my day! In an effort to bridge the gap and return the conversation to a more mellow place, here's my 2 cents worth:

On one hand, I see Susie's point. There are a lot of newish soapers on SMF, many with poor math skills. Like Susie, I try to steer inexperienced people to reliable solutions that don't require a pencil and calculator, even if I know calculator-based ways to solve the problem. So you'll usually see me talking about how to use the SoapCalc or the Summerbeemeadow calc rather than how to figure stuff by hand. Or, what's worse, coding formulas in a spreadsheet! For math-phobic or inexperienced soapers, I think a ready-to-use calc is by far the best choice.

On the other hand, I see Fuzz Juzz' point. I am comfortable with the calculations needed, and I have created and prefer to use my own personal soap calc on Excel so I can tweak every nuance of the recipe calculation process. I don't know that I'd say I "wing it" exactly, because I usually have a science based reason for my tweaks. But I really do get the point of what you're trying to say, FJ -- I'm trying to refine the recipe calculation process to get more reliable or more understandable outcomes. I don't know that my results are any more accurate than if I used SBM or Soapcalc, but my soaping doesn't seem to suffer from my arrogance in preferring my calc to someone else's. 

My concern is that, even for me, calculating a recipe by hand will always be more prone to math or calculator error than using a calc, whether it be my own spreadsheet or someone else's calc. 

And even if a hand-calculated recipe is mathematically correct, the results STILL depend on my choice of a specific saponification value for the fats and the purity of the lye. Without a chem lab to test every batch of fat for its saponification value and every batch of lye for its purity, we're still at the mercy of the published information with all its variability.

I suspect that most people are going to continue to use Soapcalc or SMB rather than make their own spreadsheet or calculate by hand. I sure hope we can come to some conclusions about these calcs to help people understand the differences and understand whether the differences are important or not.


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## lpstephy85

Woo I think I've finally got it. No instant zap from my tongue or the hubbies tongue. Glad I didn't have to use the borax. 

 Now it is sitting in the hot water off the burner per Irishlass to clarify. Thanks all that helped!


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## Susie

Sorry, I probably should have quoted shaan's post.  That is specifically who and what I was replying to.  My apologies for the misunderstanding, Fuzz-Juzz!

I was telling shaan, who is NOT ready to use a calculator and a spread sheet to stick with one calculator.  She does not need more complication at this stage of her learning process. 

And as much as I admire you math types, I am never, ever going to be able to trust my math abilities to the point that I can do without a lye calculator.  It just is what it is.


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## lpstephy85

No pictures of it but my lather is lackluster. Will it improve over time?


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## DeeAnna

And even with my decent math skills, I am far too absent-minded and fumble fingered to figure a soap recipe by hand and do it right! 

Besides, a calc lets me easily play with the numbers -- I like to tweak the fats, superfat, lye concentration, etc. until I like what I see. That's fun!


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## soapgirltami

I too, love a good soap calc. Can get lost in the world of soaping properties forever.


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## soapgirltami

lpstephy85, what does the finished soap look like? From the latest pic, it looks very cloudy, does it still appear that way?


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## Susie

Handmade liquid soap is not overly sudsy.  It has lather with some friction, but not a great deal of it.


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## shaan

Hey fuzz , i think i am confused myself and creating all the confusion here..you were just trying to be helpful.. Susie, i have used calculator,but i was trying to achieve accuracy in my calculation, due to 85% lye purity..this is where it all started.. i am being too curious to learn everything quickly.. and i have always got my answers here on SMF.. sorry if i created more confusions.


----------



## Susie

Shaan- you are OK.  It was my not communicating well that caused the issue.  

You still need to chose one lye calculator and once you print out the recipe, THEN do your math(write it on the paper) to adjust for the purity of your KOH.  Be consistent.  If you keep jumping around to different lye calculators, you are going to stay confused.  Once you get the hang of making soap with one calculator, then you can adjust your recipes to suit your own tastes.  But you need a solid, reliable place to start.  If you are more comfortable with SoapCalc, just change the water amount to 3 times your KOH amount.  But pick one and stick with it until you know the process thoroughly, and can make a consistently reliable soap time after time.  THEN, and only then, will you be ready to try other calculators/doing the math yourself from scratch.  Because then you will know if something is going wrong MUCH earlier in the process.  And by that time, you will be able to look at a recipe and know what to expect from it.


----------



## shaan

Ok got it! But i have one more question, i use coconut oil that is solid in winters and liquid during summers.. i use it for all soaps..and select fractionated coconut oil.. i have one more coconut oil,that is always liquid.. now for calculating any recipe with coconut oil,which one should i select- 76° ,97° or fractionated? May be that is making a difference in my soaps..sorry for another question.


----------



## Susie

The one that is solid in the winter and liquid in the summer is 76 degree CO, or 92 degree CO.  It becomes liquid at 76 or 92 degrees Fahrenheit.  The always liquid one is fractionated CO.  The 76 and 92 have the same SAP value, so they are interchangeable.  But the fractionated CO has a different SAP value.  So, it is important to put the correct one into the calculator.  The fractionated CO is much more expensive for me to buy, so I stick with the 76F  one.  I don't have any experience making soap with either of the others, so I can't compare soap qualities for you, sorry.


----------



## shaan

Thanx susie.


----------



## FGOriold

lpstephy85 said:


> No pictures of it but my lather is lackluster. Will it improve over time?



Based on the pics and knowing that you added extra oils while your paste was cooking, you may have unintentionally superfatted your soap too much (that would give it the cloudy appearance it appears to have). Those excess unsaponified oils MAY affect your overall lather causing it to be depressed some.


----------



## CookbookChef

Susie said:


> I happened to have some Glycerin from Walmart that is unopened.  It is an 6 FL oz bottle.  I poured it out into a cup on the tared scale.  The contents weighed 6 oz.  You do need new batteries.



lol...yep!! Just got some....and yes, the 6 Ounce bottle of Glycerin I just bought from walmart, did the same thing, poured it out and it weighed 6 ounces exactly...wow, amazing what new batteries will do, that explains why the last 2 batches of soap I had MUCH trouble with....wow, what a difference!!

Thanks Susie for doing that experiment for me just in-case!! That was kind of you indeed


----------



## CookbookChef

IrishLass said:


> From what I understand, that might or might not actually be the case. I haven't read what Marie Gale's take on this is, but I was just reading the fine print of the actual FDA regs on the FDA.Gov site and there seems to be a little bit of wiggle room on this, for they have a whole section of the regs where they state exemptions to the rule:
> 
> http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.105
> 
> One of those exemptions relates to substances that are viscous in nature, which would explain why my liquid, pourable honey and agave nectar are labeled specifically by weight as opposed to fl. ounces, even though they are in an obvious fluid state (albeit thick/viscous).
> 
> Although the above relates to US food packaging laws, it seems to also be the same for cosmetic labeling (this is also taken from the FDA site in regards to cosmetic products):
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know if that helps at all or not, but I just thought I'd post what I found.
> 
> IrishLass



Thanks for posting this Irishlass!! That would make alot of sense here as Glycerin is very Thick...like Honey is...hhhhmmmm what an interesting conversation this has been indeed. And yes, found out it WAS my batteries that were bad for sure. Ruined 2 batches of soap....but was actually able to recover from it thru some time and HELP from this forum.


----------



## CookbookChef

FGOriold said:


> So, I am not trying to argue with you, just trying to explain why when you weight out the liquid, it may vary from what the label says the contents are as you are using two different ways to measure the contents.



I know FGOroild...we are all just trying to help one another the best we can. I have good intentions, and so do you. A healthy discussion sometimes is what is needed to get to the bottom of a thing. This whole conversation about weights has been educational to say the least....and it all happened over faulty batteries! Yes, my batteries were bad...new ones now have proven that point. Sometimes out of something bad rises up something good. This whole process the last couple of weeks helped me grow as a better soaper. So, yes, thank you for your input indeed, it was much welcomed and appreciated!!


----------



## CookbookChef

lpstephy85 said:


> Woo I think I've finally got it. No instant zap from my tongue or the hubbies tongue. Glad I didn't have to use the borax. View attachment 11490
> Now it is sitting in the hot water off the burner per Irishlass to clarify. Thanks all that helped!



Hi, I know this from MY understanding, even when I THINK the soap is done, and I want to dilute it , before calling it ready to be diluted, I will first do a test, a clarity test. You need to take some paste out and dilute it with distilled water, and see if its cloudy or clear. If its super cloudy, like the mixture I see in the picture, it is not done and I NEED to continue cooking the paste, or RE Cook the paste. if it is Clear ofcourse, its done, but if it is slightly cloudy, that can be ok too. But from the picture, I think maybe your paste needed to cook a bit longer? Now, I am NOT the expert here, I do think I agree with the fact that you added extra oils, you could of superfatted it way to much, thus breaking down the lather. OR, it could of been that it simply needed to cook longer, or if it was done and cooled and you did the water clarity test, you might of needed to turn ON the heat again, heat it up and cook it for awhile. Just saying....Not sure if I am right, this is just from MY experience. Your picture looks like one of my Starter Liquid Soaps, from when I began soaping...so, that picture looks all to familiar to me. I could be wrong...this is my guess    the fact that you dont have bubbles it surely could be the extra oils, or it could be the fact your soap past was not done. For ME...the Zap test is not the only thing that matters, I also compare the clarity test....just saying....thats how I do things.

So, just for reference, did you do a water clarity test before calling your paste done?


----------



## Susie

CookbookChef- I am not saying you are wrong, exactly.  But there are more factors that affect clarity than the "doneness" of the paste.  The amount of superfat will cause cloudiness, the oils used.  Many, many more factors than whether the soap is "done" or not.  

Zap testing only tests safety.  No zap=safe.  Zap=not safe yet.  

I rarely(read never) cook my liquid soap pastes any more.  I find CP to be much more efficient and less problematic than cooking the paste.  And I still manage to get clear soaps without cooking it.


----------



## DeeAnna

Susie said:


> I am going to quote the exact sentence they used so folks understand exactly what they said.
> 
> "This was done by taking into account the water content that is always
> present in KOH flakes and by verifying the sap values of our oils by
> making single-oil liq. soap batches with each of our oils."
> 
> This is why we don't have to click a 90% purity box on that site like you do on Soapcalc.  I still get consistently smaller amounts of KOH on SBM than SoapCalc with the 90% purity box checked.



Thanks, Susie. I took the time today to dig into this further. To add to Susie's findings, I also saw this on the Summer Bee Meadow (SBM) calc's front page: "...Calculations take into account the typical impurities percentage found in NaOH and KOH supplies...."

So if I'm understanding all this, the SBM calc does not factor in a lye excess at zero superfat as I was thinking. Instead they're doing a correction for KOH purity. For a recipe created with the SBM calc at to zero superfat and using KOH that meets SBM's (unstated) purity, the result should theoretically be a soap with zero lye excess, zero fat excess. I wish they'd just come out and state the amount of correction they're using so people can make an informed decision. 

***

Although I can't make that update to the SBM calc, I can reverse-engineer what they are doing, and here is what I found:

I entered the Carrie-Irish Lass LS recipe of 10% castor, 25% CO, and 65% olive into three soap recipe calcs -- SBM, Soapcalc, and my personal calc. I can easily change the lye purity in my calc, so it's possible for me to reconstruct another person's recipe and really understand what they're doing. When I compare results from my calc with the other two, I can replicate their numbers with only a small error.

Recipe:
Castor 10%
Coconut oil 25%
Olive 65%
Total wt of fats 1000 g
0% superfat

*KOH (liquid) soap recipes:*

*SoapCalc:*

KOH = 205.5 grams (or ounces) in my calc when I set KOH purity = 100%
KOH = 205.75 grams (or ounces) in SoapCalc, if the 90% purity box is NOT checked. 
Conclusion: *If you do NOT check the 90% box in Soapcalc, the answer for KOH is based on 100% purity.*

KOH = 228.33 grams (or ounces) in my calc when I set KOH purity = 90%
KOH = 228.61 grams (or ounces) in SoapCalc, if the 90% purity box IS checked. 
Conclusion: *If you DO check the 90% box in Soapcalc, the answer for KOH is based on KOH purity = 90%.* No surprise there, but it's a double check that results from my calc are similar to Soapcalc.

*Summer Bee Meadow:*

Using the same recipe in SBM at its unknown KOH purity, I got this answer: KOH = 218.8 ounces.
I then plugged different KOH purity values into my calc and adjusted the purity to get about the same 218.8 ounces of KOH. 
When I got to KOH purity = 94%, my calc returned KOH = 218.62 ounces.
Conclusion: The *SBM calc is based on a KOH purity = 94%. This result is true for both the SMB basic calc and the SBM advanced calc.*

So, yes, SBM and Soapcalc are going to give different answers because they're based on distinctly different starting assumptions. There's more discrepancy between the two calcs from the % purity than from any variation in their sap values, at least for olive, castor, and CO. The variable results that people are seeing in their liquid soaping adventures is partly due to the two calc's quite different assumptions about KOH purity and because LS is so very sensitive to any variations in superfat.

My suggestion is to check the purity of your KOH as supplied and choose the calc that is based on the KOH purity closest to what you're actually using. And, if using Soapcalc, change the lye solution concentration to 25% OR change the water:lye ratio to 3:1, whichever you prefer. Either one means the same thing.

Essential Depot KOH: 90% purity 
Source: http://www.essentialdepot.com/msds/

Lye Guy KOH: 96% purity 
Source: http://www.thelyeguy.com/store.php


*NaOH (bar) soap recipes:*

Here are the results for SBM and Soapcalc using the same recipe shown above, just set for NaOH now:

*SoapCalc: *NaOH = 146.7 at Soapcalc's unknown purity setting
*SBM*: NaOH = 146.52 at SBM unknown purity setting
When I reverse engineered these results in my calc, I got NaOH = 146.47 at NaOH purity = 100%. 

Conclusion: Both *SBM and Soapcalc are based on an NaOH purity = 100%* 

Essential Depot NaOH: 95-96% purity
Lye Guy NaOH: 96% purity
Sources: See above in this post

Due to the hygroscopic nature of NaOH (absorbs water very easily from the air), the purity of NaOH drops with time. These calcs are basically building in a hidden superfat of at least 4% when using NaOH from common suppliers. 

I hope this helps....

***

*7 March 2015 update: *

I checked several more online soap recipe calculators to find out what lye purity levels they were using. The attached PDF shows my findings. The summary is this:

*All of the recipe calcs are set to about 100% purity for NaOH.* This is building in a hidden superfat to almost all bar-soap recipes, since most NaOH that soapers use is not 100% pure. 

*Most of the calcs are set for 100% KOH purity* as well, with *three exceptions: SoapCalc (90% or 100%), Brambleberry (95%), and Summer Bee Meadow (94%).*

My suggestion for making liquid soap is to check the purity of the KOH you are using and choose the calc that is based on the KOH purity closest to what you're actually using. By choosing the "wrong" calc for your KOH, you could end up with liquid soap that is lye heavy or fat heavy --

Example 1: You use Soapcalc set at 90%, set the superfat at 3%, and use 95% pure KOH. Your soap could have about 2% too much lye (lye heavy). 

Example 2: You use a calc set for 100% KOH purity, set the superfat at 3%, and use 95% pure KOH. Your soap could have an actual superfat of 8%. This excess fat may make the liquid soap cloudy and may even separate from the soap after dilution.

If someone wants me to check a calc not on the list, please send me a PM (private message) and I will look into it.

***
_*
9 June 2015 update*_

Sometimes your KOH purity may be quite different than what any of the calcs are based on. So another way to correct the KOH purity is to use the calc you like best and adjust the KOH weight to correct for the purity of the KOH you are using --

KOH you need = (KOH based on calc's purity) X (Calc's KOH purity) / (Actual KOH purity)

Example 3: You use SBM calc which is set for 94% purity. Your actual KOH is 85%. The calc says you need 145 g of KOH at the calc's default purity. The weight of KOH that you need at your actual purity of 85% is this:

KOH you need = (145 g) X 94 / 85 = 160 g

*** 

View attachment Dee on Lye purity for online calcs.pdf


----------



## shunt2011

Okay, so very excited, I tried IrishLass recipe and method and had great success.  I a so excited as I have tried several batches that just didn't work as well.   Thank you so much for sharing.


----------



## lpstephy85

Made a "dummy" mistake today. I calculated how much FO I would need for 9oz of LS. I then got distracted by the hubby for awhile and then went back to my LS. Instead of double checking what I had wrote down I thought I had it in my head. I basically ended up with a little over 5% FO in my 9oz bottle of LS (if my math is right: I did .5oz FO). I didn't realize this though until I decided to test the soap on my face and my face started burning and getting irritated  I went back to my notes and realized on one page I wrote down how much I was suppose to use and then on the next page I had written down what I did use. I still have a full mason jar of LS. Can I just pour out half of the bottled LS and replace it with half of the unscented to calm it down?


----------



## DeeAnna

Yes, that's what I would do -- good thinking!


----------



## FGOriold

DeeAnna - that makes perfect sense to me that SBM would come out to about a 94% purity assumption since they indicate that they take into account that KOH is not 100% pure AND they indicate (unfortunately not on the calculators home page but elsewhere in their website) that they calculate with a very small lye excess. I have always found the same results as you in comparing the three calculators (Soapcalc 100%, Soapcalc 90% and Summerbee Meadow) and SBM always comes out in the middle in calculating the KOH amount.

Since I get my KOH from The Lye Guy (96%) and use SBM with about a 1 - 2% superfat, I always get consistent results with no need to neutralize and no cloudy results when the appropriate oils are used.

Excellent explanation with examples - Bravo!


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## DeeAnna

I wish both calcs gave the user the ability to choose the purity of their lye, rather than just force everyone into a narrow mold. We're using materials from so many different sources and we are located all over the world -- it's impossible that just one or two settings for purity will work for everyone, especially when talking about liquid soap that shows the effects much more dramatically than bar soap.

I understand a lot of people use ED KOH (90% purity), so I can see why Soapcalc gives 90% as an option. Unfortunately, Soapcalc set to 90% KOH can cause lye heavy batches if the KOH happens to have a higher purity (ex: Lye Guy KOH at 96%, which is what I use). 

But the reverse is true for SBM -- I'm betting there are a lot of soapers who use ED KOH are finding their LS is breaking/separating due to being fat heavy, even though they used SBM calc properly.

Grrrr....  roblem:


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## Susie

I use ED KOH, and have no problems as long as I stick to 3% SF or less.


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## DeeAnna

I take it you're using the SBM calc, Susie? I'm sure you've mentioned it before, but I can't dredge up the memory.


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## CookbookChef

Susie said:


> CookbookChef- I am not saying you are wrong, exactly.  But there are more factors that affect clarity than the "doneness" of the paste.  The amount of superfat will cause cloudiness, the oils used.  Many, many more factors than whether the soap is "done" or not.
> 
> Zap testing only tests safety.  No zap=safe.  Zap=not safe yet.
> 
> I rarely(read never) cook my liquid soap pastes any more.  I find CP to be much more efficient and less problematic than cooking the paste.  And I still manage to get clear soaps without cooking it.



Yeppers Susie you and I are in agreement...I said those same words, just in a different way. Yes, Zap testing is for safety, I understand, and the whole maybe extra oils caused​ the cloudiness, I said that too, and yes, as far as understanding that other kinds of oils can make the LS Cloudy, got that too. Yes, by trial and error, I now have made 22 Batches of LS...With the help of Hubby...so ya, gotcha on the same info, maybe I just stated it differently now. Yep, having fun and trying lots of experiments with the soap. But yes, I think its fantastic that we all share what knowledge we understand. I for one can understand IrishLasses way of Talking to me when I need instructions, where somebody else can say the same thing she did and come across to me in a confusing way. I am sure it is the same with with others. Somebody might understand ME better then you, or they might understand YOU better then me. Thats what is so wonderful about this forum, we are all helping each other with kind and helpful help. But ya, we are thinking alike on what you said. I just said it different. This is so much fun, and each batch Of Soap I make with Hubby we make it as if its our FIRST Batch so that we can continually fine tune our skills. We learned around batch 12 or 13 that getting cocky about our soap making only gets us into trouble. So now, we look at EACH batch as number one and are remaining eager to learn from others with a FRESH Mind when we show up on the forum. Ya, we are having a blast learning from all of you, and it feels good when we are starting to finally understand some of the information coming our way. Wow, were we GREEN behind the ears when we first arrived here!! Actually, STAYING Green is what is going to help us grow and continue to soak up all the information. If anyone is wondering why we have done so many batches, its because we have a very large family of well, family and also friends. Our circle is Eating it up....all this soap, they love it, and so do we. Thanks Susie for your Imput!!


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> I take it you're using the SBM calc, Susie? I'm sure you've mentioned it before, but I can't dredge up the memory.



SBM Advanced.  I don't even like the regular SBM outcomes as well as the advanced.


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## lpstephy85

Susie said:


> I use ED KOH, and have no problems as long as I stick to 3% SF or less.




Susie, I was using ED KOH as well and since I had lye heavy LS using SoapCalc and now will use SBM advanced, should I put in 100% KOH or 90% KOH when filling out the calc?


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## Susie

The SBM automatically adjusts for impurities in KOH.  The SBM Advanced that I use only asks how much of the recipe will be KOH or NaOH.  So, if you are making liquid soap without NaOH, you put 100% in the blank.


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## DeeAnna

I ran the same tests on the advanced SBM calc that I did on the simpler version (see Post 323). It looks like the advanced SBM calc is using exactly the same settings for lye purity as the regular version -- KOH purity = 94% and NaOH purity = 100%. 

For the 10% castor, 25% CO, 65% OO, 0% superfat example, I got KOH = 218.8 and NaOH = 146.5. These are the same answers as the regular calc provided.

I understand the advanced version offers the options of adding glycerin or alcohol and using a blend of KOH and NaOH, but I don't see a way to alter the lye purity settings or anything else that would alter the way the lye amounts are calculated. 

Since I'm not super familiar with this version, I might be missing something however. ???


----------



## Susie

I don't know if it is just me or what.  But I did not want to use SBM Advanced, AT ALL!  It looked confusing, and seemed unnecessarily complicated.  I tried the regular SBM, and got much the same paste qualities as SoapCalc.  Then I tried the SBM Advanced, and the paste was much easier to work with.  

Going to check water amounts...Hmmm....same water amounts.  Maybe it is just me.  If so, I will be using SBM regular from now on.


----------



## DeeAnna

And maybe it's just the Universe playing games with us poor humans..... :shifty:


----------



## IrishLass

Well, I'll be! I've only ever used the Advanced version of the SBM calculator for my liquid soap because that's what was recommended to me by soapers on another forum. And since I have always had great success 100% of the time using that particular version of the calculator from the get-go with my liquid soap, I never even thought to use the regular version. But now that I've just typed in my usual 3-bees formula in on the regular SBM calculator and see that all the outputs are the same as what the advanced version gives me, I will just use and recommend the regular/simpler version from now on, unless people want to add other things or if they are using a combo of lyes, that is. Cool beans!

Hmmm, it makes me wonder if things were always this way, or if they may have changed things at some point? I guess I'll never know since I never used their regular calculator in the past to compare.


IrishLass


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## Susie

I did try it, as I was really trying to use solely grams as measurement of weight for all soaps.  I did not like it.  I am looking now for the printed recipe(s) from back then so I can see the notes.(This is what I get for outgrowing my binder.)

OK, here it is:

1-18-04 Liquid Soap(I have no idea where this recipe came from.)

CO 298g
OO 99 g
Castor oil 28 g
Jojoba oil 28 g

SF 3%

KOH 99 g
Water 172 g

Notes:

Paste too hard to cook to translucent.  Added 30 g H2O x 3.  Still stiff.  UGH.  
Diluted with 999 g H20.(Still chunky at 12 hours, but will resume in AM.)
Cloudy.  Rechecked recipe x 2.  Is oil at fault??

So, yep, not enough water.  Glad they fixed that.


----------



## DeeAnna

I don't know either, Irish Lass. I've been using my own soap calc for about as long as I've been making soap, so I'm not too familiar with how the online calcs may have changed over time.

I check my calc against SoapCalc or SBM occasionally and have long been aware the online calcs handle lye purity differently than my calc, but I've not said too much about it until now. Soapers who make bar (NaOH) soap are selcom interested in this issue, because most bar soap is pretty forgiving of the extra "hidden" superfat that the online calcs build into bar-soap recipes. 

Now that I've been making LS and following the troubles that people are having with their LS making, I realize the variations in KOH purity may be more critical to LS makers. I've been increasingly wondering about the troubles others are having with lye heavy or fat heavy LS. I'm beginning to think it's not always simple inexperience or ignorance that's causing these recurring troubles -- it might well be the calc being used that is also inadvertently steering these soapers off course. The calc needs to be matched better to the lye being used.


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## IrishLass

Susie said:


> So, yep, not enough water. Glad they fixed that.




Wow, Susie! I just typed the recipe you posted from your old notes (in converted oz. form) into the regular SBM calculator, and sure enough- all I can say is what you said, "Yep, not enough water." I'm glad they fixed it, too!

DeeAnna (and all)- I have no idea what the actual purity of my KOH is. I've been using up an old bottle of it that I bought from Snowdrift Farms some years ago, back when they were still business, and since I don't have a contact # for them, there's no way of being able to check. I'm not concerned about it, though, since all is working well for me with this particular bottle of KOH using the SBM, but on the future bottles that I have on hand from BB, I will check before using.

IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

It's been a great help for me to learn:

Too dry and hard to work with: water = 2 x KOH or less 
Just right: water = 3 x KOH
Too wet to stay emusified or saponify quickly: water = 3 x KOH or more

And the "water" to dilute the KOH can be water only, a mix of water and glycerin, or glycerin only.

Tentatively, I think I've learned recently --
Cold process method will work if you dilute the KOH with all glycerin or a mix of water and glycerin
Hot process method is needed if you dilute the KOH with just water


----------



## CookbookChef

*To Irishlass, and anybody else willing to help please.*



IrishLass said:


> You're very welcome everyone! I'm glad to be able to contribute.
> 
> I'd go for it! My other favorite 'keeper' GLS actually contains both shea butter _and_ cocoa butter. Although it dilutes out to a rather "blah" murky/cloudy amber color, it gets transformed into a beautifully opaque, creamy/pearly swan with 2% stearic acid added to it. And I also add an extra 2% superfat to it when the soap is all finished and pearly (mixed with PS80 to emulsify). It's just a tiny bit more involved to make compared to Carrie's formula (the stearic adds an extra step near the end of dilution), but I'm working on perfecting my procedure so that the stearic can be added up front, thereby eliminating the extra step. My conundrum with the timing of the stearic addition stems from my early experiments with trying to perfect the dilution rate for this formula while simultaneously trying to make it creamy/pearly looking. That's what I get for trying to do 2 things at once. lol Right now, the 2% stearic is based on the finished diluted soap weight, but I'd like it to be based on the weight of the paste instead. Heavy sigh! I'll get it figured out soon. :crazy:
> 
> Anyway, for what it's worth, here's my recipe:
> 
> Coconut Oil 35%
> Castor Oil 30%
> Cocoa Butter 20%
> Olive Oil 10%
> Shea Butter 5%
> KOH amount based on 3% superfat using Summerbee's Advanced Lye Calculator
> 
> I add the same amount of SL to the paste (3%) that I use in the other formula, but my dilution rate for it is much different. I must say that I had to play with it (the dilution rate) quite a bit, but I finally got it to where it comes out just as thick- 1 part paste to .41 (41%) parts water [paste weight X .41 or 41%]. A significant difference from the other formula, as you can see, which might be due to the higher amount of coconut oil (which needs much less water to dilute than other oils, I've found), but the consistency is great- as thick as honey- just the way I like it.
> 
> It feels great, too- very sumptuous with lots of lather- and not drying at all in spite of having 35% coconut oil in it. I attribute that to the added 2% superfat and the 2% stearic.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Ok, Back to the Start of things again. I have been doing your other LS wonderfully, now its time for me to move on and try your other recipe. Thing is, I re went about reading the whole thread....Again...and I see that you say this ABOVE:

And I also add an extra 2% superfat to it when the soap is all finished and pearly (mixed with PS80 to emulsify). It's just a tiny bit more involved to make compared to Carrie's formula (the stearic adds an extra step near the end of dilution), but I'm working on perfecting my procedure so that the stearic can be added up front, thereby eliminating the extra step. 

So, when you say you add that extra 2% superfat to it when the soap is all finished and pearly (mixed with PS80 to emulsify) what exactly do you mean? I know that this usually would mean adding in some extra oil, so is that what you mean to say? at 2% the final LS weight, and not the Paste? and what kind of superfat do you use? I dont mean to be a copy cater, but I am learning from you, and I need something to start whith here that will work. Thanks again IrishLass


----------



## lpstephy85

Ok LS experts  What can you tell me is going on here? The cloudy pic is after shaking it up. I am thinking FO separation myself.


----------



## lpstephy85

The separation pic since it won't show up...


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> Tentatively, I think I've learned recently --
> Cold process method will work if you dilute the KOH with all glycerin or a mix of water and glycerin
> Hot process method is needed if you dilute the KOH with just water



No, I routinely CP laundry and dish soap with just water(3 x KOH amount) to dissolve the KOH.  But I do add half an ounce of grated NaOH soap.  It just makes all the difference.  I even use the heat transfer method, so no heat added whatsoever.

EDIT-That is not entirely true.  I use the heat transfer method in the summer.  When the house is around 74-76F.  I can't use heat transfer now that the house is 66-68F.


----------



## Susie

Istephy85- could you please forgive my very, very bad memory and please tell me what recipe you are using?  I know it is in this thread somewhere, but my search ability seems to be not working today.


----------



## lpstephy85

Susie said:


> Istephy85- could you please forgive my very, very bad memory and please tell me what recipe you are using?  I know it is in this thread somewhere, but my search ability seems to be not working today.




Lol no problem 

2.4 oz Castor
3.7 CO 76
9.9 OO

Glycerin method, 3% SF but remember I was lye heavy so I added an additional 3.5oz OO. I diluted with 1 part paste to .75 parts water. When I added the FO I thought I had the right calculation in my head but was wrong as I ended up being way higher per my post on the last page: "Made a "dummy" mistake today. I calculated how much FO I would need for 9oz of LS. I then got distracted by the hubby for awhile and then went back to my LS. Instead of double checking what I had wrote down I thought I had it in my head. I basically ended up with a little over 5% FO in my 9oz bottle of LS (if my math is right: I did .5oz FO). I didn't realize this though until I decided to test the soap on my face and my face started burning and getting irritated  I went back to my notes and realized on one page I wrote down how much I was suppose to use and then on the next page I had written down what I did use. I still have a full mason jar of LS. Can I just pour out half of the bottled LS and replace it with half of the unscented to calm it down?"

So with all of that, I split what I had in the bottle and cut it with half unscented LS I had left and it has been sitting for a couple of hours and no separation yet. 

ETA: still no separation but it does still burn my face  hopefully I can burn through (no pun intended) this batch to make a new one to see if I can do better!


----------



## Susie

That is exactly what I would have done to solve it.


----------



## DeeAnna

And the weight of your lye, too, please?


----------



## DeeAnna

"...I routinely CP laundry and dish soap with just water (3 x KOH amount) to dissolve the KOH...."

Point noted, Susie. Thanks for sharing that. When I was doing my water-only batch, I was wondering if CP could have worked if my ingredients were hot enough to start with, but it wasn't going to happen with that particular batch in a kitchen in the mid 60s (deg F).


----------



## IrishLass

CookbookChef said:


> So, when you say you add that extra 2% superfat to it when the soap is all finished and pearly (mixed with PS80 to emulsify) what exactly do you mean? I know that this usually would mean adding in some extra oil, so is that what you mean to say? at 2% the final LS weight, and not the Paste? and what kind of superfat do you use? I dont mean to be a copy cater, but I am learning from you, and I need something to start whith here that will work. Thanks again IrishLass



 Hi Chef!

 Yes- after I have diluted my paste and made it nice and pearly with stearic acid and PS80 to emulsify, I weigh it, and then I add in a 2% superfat as per the weight of the diluted soap (not the paste) that my scale shows me (along with more PS80 to emulsify the 2% superfat). My superfat oil of choice is Meadowfoam Seed Oil. I love that stuff! 


 HTH!
 IrishLass


----------



## lpstephy85

DeeAnna said:


> And the weight of your lye, too, please?




Oops! 3.5oz


----------



## DeeAnna

Modified recipe:
2.4 oz Castor
3.7 CO 76
9.9 + 3.5 = 13.4 OO
3.5 oz lye

I didn't know what purity of KOH you are using, so I figured the KOH for the following purity levels: 90% (Soapcalc w 90% checked), 94% (Summerbeemeadow) and 100% (Soapcalc 90% not checked), so you can see how the lye amount changes as the purity changes. The superfat is constant at 3% in all of the examples below.

Here are the numbers for your modified recipe as above:

100% KOH, 3% superfat => 3.8 oz KOH
94% purity, 3% superfat =>  4.1 oz KOH
90% purity, 3% superfat => 4.2 oz KOH

I'd say the current version of your LS is fat heavy, regardless of the purity of your KOH. 

***

About the soap burning your face -- I suppose the problem might possibly be excess lye, somehow, but where is that coming from, given the situation? Another strong possibility is your fragrance is irritating your skin. I've had that happen -- facial skin is more sensitive to stuff like that. 

All the calculating in the world is no substitute for real info, so one thing to double check is zap -- if the LS doesn't zap your tongue, I'd lean toward the FO causing the irritation. I'm just guessing here, so please don't take any of this as gospel truth. 

***

I checked your original recipe (the version with 9.9 oz OO). Here are the numbers for that one, again for 3% superfat and the various KOH purities:

100% purity, 3% superfat => 3.2 oz KOH
94% purity, 3% superfat =>  3.4 oz KOH
90% purity, 3% superfat => 3.5 oz KOH


----------



## lpstephy85

@DeeAnna

You are such a sweetie posting all of that 

Several hours after remixing what I had bottled there is still no separation (there isn't even separation in the unscented LS that I have in a canning jar) so I am leaning toward it was the excess FO separating.

I am using ED KOH and per their site the purity is 90%. I zap tested it numerous times and even the hubby did as well and neither of us got an instant zap like I had before adding more OO. 

With that I am going to take it that it is the FO irritating my face and not use this batch on my face. Once I make the new one I will only do 1% FO. I want to make sure before I start selling this there is no irritation going on.


----------



## Susie

If you are this new to making liquid soap that you are having these issues, perhaps it is too soon to think about selling it.


----------



## lpstephy85

Susie said:


> If you are this new to making liquid soap that you are having these issues, perhaps it is too soon to think about selling it.



Well that is why I said I won't be selling it until I have all of the kinks worked out. In the future I would love to add it to my line of products as I do have people asking for it but I have told them not until I am 100% confident that it will be a good product. Until then I will just be making small tester batches and as far as I would go to letting someone try it would be my mom as she has really dry and sensitive skin so she would be a good tester to see how I need to tweek the recipe.


----------



## CookbookChef

lpstephy85 said:


> @DeeAnna
> 
> You are such a sweetie posting all of that
> 
> Several hours after remixing what I had bottled there is still no separation (there isn't even separation in the unscented LS that I have in a canning jar) so I am leaning toward it was the excess FO separating.
> 
> I am using ED KOH and per their site the purity is 90%. I zap tested it numerous times and even the hubby did as well and neither of us got an instant zap like I had before adding more OO.
> 
> With that I am going to take it that it is the FO irritating my face and not use this batch on my face. Once I make the new one I will only do 1% FO. I want to make sure before I start selling this there is no irritation going on.



Hi, I am posting a quote also from Deeanna
"All the calculating in the world is no substitute for real info, so one thing to double check is zap -- if the LS doesn't zap your tongue, I'd lean toward the FO causing the irritation. I'm just guessing here, so please don't take any of this as gospel truth. " end quote

So, I brought this up as I see you did not say if you had tried the zap test....again here, to make sure. I know you originally did, and said that you had no zap, but, with your face burning, yes, it COULD be the fragrance oil, but then again it COULD be that when you first tested it, and thought it was not a zap, maybe it really was a zap and you were just to new of a soaper to know the difference. I say this because Honistly, when I saw a picture of your diluted soap I right away thought it looke exactly like my FIRST batch I ever did, where I THOUGHT it was zap free...but I had nothing to go against as I was new to soaping. Your extra cloudy liquid soap looked like my first batch, and even though I THOUGHT my batch was zap friendly, later, when I took a shower, Not only did my skin feel all tingly everywhere, but it burned my hair when I used it as Shampoo, bad enough that an entire HANDFULL of hair broke off into my hands, I mean a CLUMP of hair, like a 1/4 cup full of hair. I rinsed right away and used lots of vinager to make sure it was all nutralized. Anyway, what I am saying, is it sure would not hurt anything at all to try the zap test just one more time, as a process of elimination. Yes, it could be the fragrance oil, but saying that, you would most likely have a rash or redness, but out right burning....thats the part that was a flag for me, not saying you cant burn from FO, but it was the burning part for me that made me THINK Of my first Liquid Soap. So, just saying, it wouldnt hurt to do a zap test quick, again to do a process of illimination, just one more time. Then if its good, its probibly the FO. Yes, if you do the zap test now, it will taste bad, but saying that, you will know.
Ok, just my thought here....I felt it WORTH bringing up...I know my first batch almost got me away from making LS alltogether after loosing that much hair, but now I totally understand what ZAP feels like on my tongue. If somebody where offering me a million dollars, I would of said, YES, MY SOAP IS ZAP FREE....cause I was THAT confidant on it when I tested it, but when I USED it in my hair....oh trouble trouble indeed!!! In other words, I did NOT know what zap felt like, I only thought I did. But now, after having so many LS batches under my belt, I totally know when I am being zaped!! For you, I hope it is the FO and not the Soap!!! But you might need to try the zap test AGAIN just to be sure...ok, thats my two cents....spend it, or leave the pennies on the ground where you found them :smile:


----------



## Susie

She did say it was zap free earlier.  I did remember that, I just wanted to double check other ingredients for possible irritants, then could not remember the recipe.(My horrid memory.)

Ipstephy85- glad to hear that.  You seemed not to be the "get rich quick making soap" type, so I almost did not say anything.  But, I thought I might better because someone else who read that might not be as sensible as you.


----------



## DeeAnna

Cookbookchef -- 

May I gently ask you to please break your posts into smaller paragraphs, so your thoughts are easier to follow? I am increasingly reluctant to read your posts, so it's likely I won't know if you have asked me a question of late.

I apologize for giving offense by saying this.


----------



## lpstephy85

Susie said:


> She did say it was zap free earlier.  I did remember that, I just wanted to double check other ingredients for possible irritants, then could not remember the recipe.(My horrid memory.)
> 
> Ipstephy85- glad to hear that.  You seemed not to be the "get rich quick making soap" type, so I almost did not say anything.  But, I thought I might better because someone else who read that might not be as sensible as you.



Pssh, if I was the "get rich quick soaper" type I would have thrown in the towel long ago. I am the "addicted soaper" type :mrgreen:


----------



## lpstephy85

CookbookChef said:


> Hi, I am posting a quote also from Deeanna
> "All the calculating in the world is no substitute for real info, so one thing to double check is zap -- if the LS doesn't zap your tongue, I'd lean toward the FO causing the irritation. I'm just guessing here, so please don't take any of this as gospel truth. " end quote
> 
> So, I brought this up as I see you did not say if you had tried the zap test....again here, to make sure. I know you originally did, and said that you had no zap, but, with your face burning, yes, it COULD be the fragrance oil, but then again it COULD be that when you first tested it, and thought it was not a zap, maybe it really was a zap and you were just to new of a soaper to know the difference. I say this because Honistly, when I saw a picture of your diluted soap I right away thought it looke exactly like my FIRST batch I ever did, where I THOUGHT it was zap free...but I had nothing to go against as I was new to soaping. Your extra cloudy liquid soap looked like my first batch, and even though I THOUGHT my batch was zap friendly, later, when I took a shower, Not only did my skin feel all tingly everywhere, but it burned my hair when I used it as Shampoo, bad enough that an entire HANDFULL of hair broke off into my hands, I mean a CLUMP of hair, like a 1/4 cup full of hair. I rinsed right away and used lots of vinager to make sure it was all nutralized. Anyway, what I am saying, is it sure would not hurt anything at all to try the zap test just one more time, as a process of elimination. Yes, it could be the fragrance oil, but saying that, you would most likely have a rash or redness, but out right burning....thats the part that was a flag for me, not saying you cant burn from FO, but it was the burning part for me that made me THINK Of my first Liquid Soap. So, just saying, it wouldnt hurt to do a zap test quick, again to do a process of illimination, just one more time. Then if its good, its probibly the FO. Yes, if you do the zap test now, it will taste bad, but saying that, you will know.
> Ok, just my thought here....I felt it WORTH bringing up...I know my first batch almost got me away from making LS alltogether after loosing that much hair, but now I totally understand what ZAP feels like on my tongue. If somebody where offering me a million dollars, I would of said, YES, MY SOAP IS ZAP FREE....cause I was THAT confidant on it when I tested it, but when I USED it in my hair....oh trouble trouble indeed!!! In other words, I did NOT know what zap felt like, I only thought I did. But now, after having so many LS batches under my belt, I totally know when I am being zaped!! For you, I hope it is the FO and not the Soap!!! But you might need to try the zap test AGAIN just to be sure...ok, thats my two cents....spend it, or leave the pennies on the ground where you found them :smile:



I am new to LS but not new to CP and HP soap making. I have zap tested plenty of my bars and know zap as I forced myself to do it when making HP so I know what I would be feeling. And when I split the ones I had bottled for testing I even re-zap tested the unscented batch I had in a canning jar and no instant zap, just a sweet taste and then irritation after a few seconds. Zap is instant and unmistakable. And from DeeAnna's post with using 3.5oz of KOH I still should have been ok as to not having lye heavy soap before or after adding extra OO (I used SoapCalc with the 90% purity checked and per ED their KOH is 90%):

DeeAnna's Post: 

Modified recipe when I added more OO which I am now fat heavy and that is causing the cloudiness. 

2.4 oz Castor
3.7 CO 76
9.9 + 3.5 = 13.4 OO
3.5 oz lye

I didn't know what purity of KOH you are using, so I figured the KOH for  the following purity levels: 90% (Soapcalc w 90% checked), 94%  (Summerbeemeadow) and 100% (Soapcalc 90% not checked), so you can see  how the lye amount changes as the purity changes. The superfat is constant at 3% in all of the examples below.

Here are the numbers for your modified recipe as above:

100% KOH, 3% superfat => 3.8 oz KOH
94% purity, 3% superfat =>  4.1 oz KOH
*90% purity, 3% superfat => 4.2 oz KOH*

Original recipe:

I checked your original recipe (the version with 9.9 oz OO). Here are the numbers for that one, again for 3% superfat and the various KOH purities:

100% purity, 3% superfat => 3.2 oz KOH
94% purity, 3% superfat =>  3.4 oz KOH
*90% purity, 3% superfat => 3.5 oz KOH 	*


----------



## Dahila

I do not want to hack the thread but i have question.  When I made my liquid glycerine soap it was a succes, at this time I had not sense of small due the sinus infection.  It is back  and unfragranced soap (Dilluted with distilled water and SL) and it stinks like hell.  Is it normal or something went wrong?


----------



## Susie

I am not sure what you are calling stink.  To me it smells like unscented soap when it is done correctly.  Nothing special, but just soap.


----------



## IrishLass

Mine has a distinct scent to it, but it's not stinky in a bad way at all. It just smells like good, clean soap. As a matter of fact, the scent smells just like the liquid soap my elementary school kept in the washroom dispensers back when I was in kindergarten. Every time I use my soap in its unscented form, it takes me right back to kindergarten.

IrishLass


----------



## Susie

That is exactly the scent!


----------



## Dahila

it smells a bit like urine, at least this is the closest I can describe,


----------



## Susie

Did you add any milk to the recipe?


----------



## Dahila

No it is exactly like Irishlass ,   I need to smell the KOH because it maybe smells this way.  Lye does not smell nice either.  Susie sometimes I can smell things no one can.  Which help me make nice smelling soaps and lotions) 
When I smell it is smells like soap but the worst kind of soap


----------



## IrishLass

Dahila- your nose kinda sounds a lot like my hubby's nose. The scent receptors in our individual nasal cavities are programmed differently. When I sniff jasmine, I smell a pretty flower, but when he sniffs jasmine, he smells cat pee. lol 

Also- he always knows when I've mixed up a batch of lye solution out in the garage, even though I mixed it up 9 hours before he came home from work! He's like a blood hound or something! Maybe I should start calling him Hound Dog. lol :wink: 

Have you had someone else smell your soap? That might be a good idea to do.

IrishLass


----------



## Susie

I smell cat pee for jasmine also.  I can also smell 0.5 oz lard containing NaOH soap in a gallon of scented liquid laundry soap.  I love lard!  Just not the smell of it on my clothes when they come out of the dryer.


----------



## Dahila

My daughter smelled and said it smells nice, I scented with lemon verbena.  My hubby says it smell ok but he is a smoker, so I do not trust him.  Today I am taking some to my friend and she will give me feedback.  When something smells off she can smell too , At least I trust her on it) thank you ladies.
yeah I have a weird way of smell sense.  When so many people complain on skunk smell it does not bother me)


----------



## IrishLass

Dahila said:


> yeah I have a weird way of smell sense. When so many people complain on skunk smell it does not bother me)


 
Hahaha- my sister-in-law is the same way! I thought she was the only one with a sense of smell like that out there, but apparently not. Whenever we have driven somewhere together in the car and we've passed by a dead skunk in the road, she opens the window and inhales deeply to take it all in while I'm holding my nose and turning green.  She swears it smells like freshly cut lemons. I'll have to tell her there's someone else out there with a nose like hers. lol

IrishLass


----------



## Dahila

Irishlass guess what;  I love the smell of burning rubber too)) Well skunk smells like a fresh strong coffee for me)
I know I am weird :crazy:


----------



## CookbookChef

DeeAnna said:


> Cookbookchef --
> 
> May I gently ask you to please break your posts into smaller paragraphs, so your thoughts are easier to follow? I am increasingly reluctant to read your posts, so it's likely I won't know if you have asked me a question of late.
> 
> I apologize for giving offense by saying this.



No Offense Taken DeeAnna, We all write in our own way, and in our own manner. I understand if you don't read my posts. This is how I communicate, very Thought out like. We are all different. SO, Lets turn it around, Hopefully MY posts don't offend you! :grin:


----------



## jnl

ugh.

this thread is way too freaking long.

so im going to make some dish soap tomorrow because i am out and i dont want to buy more.

but i dont want to use castor oil.
so what is a good substitution? 
maybe sunflower oil?  i hear its good for lather...tho its greasy...
or does anyone else have a better suggestion?

65% olive oil
25% coconut oil
10% sunflower oil
3% superfat

and i wanted to add the KOH to water and then add in the glycerin.  DeeAnna and IrishLass, you guys liked the 1:1 water to lye PLUS 3:1 glycerin?  or should i do 1:1 water plus 2:1 glycerin?


and my KOH is 91.1% pure.  Should i ignore that and just have a slightly reduced superfat, or should i attempt to find a way to find out the right KOH?


----------



## jnl

so if i do use sunflower oil in a 1lb batch this is right?

4oz CO
10.4oz OO
1.6oz sunflower
3.41oz KOH
10.24oz glycerin
3.41oz water

(i used the SBM calc, hopefully correctly...man, its annoying how you cant enter % for fats!)

is that right to do the easy CPLS with KOH in water plus full glycerin?

this is my first LS, and my second solo-soap and my 3rd ever.
lol
i like to dive into the deep end

so i mix the lye/water/glycerine into the fats and mix until floating bubbles or thick as f--- and then let it sit for an hour or 2+ (lid on, but no external heat) until the temperature starts dropping instead of rising before i lick it. if the temperature is dropping, that means the lye is done, right (or the lye is too much and ran our of oils to eat)?  less of a risk to getting a zap?  i reallllyyyyy dont want to get a zap.  ive been electrocuted way too many times already.  do you lick the paste directly, or froth it up in some water and lick the froth?

can i do the heat exchange method and let the hot lye water melt the coconut oil?  it melts so easy.  especially in my hot house.  


i will also be making a yogurt CP soap tomorrow because i saw a nice recipe that has no palm or castor or animal fats (yay!)  from the anne watson book and i have really nice greek yogurt (ingredients are only cream and bacteria - no nasty gelatin or sugar or thickeners) that is going to expire soon


----------



## Susie

I would not use that recipe for dishwashing liquid soap.  I would also not use glycerin for dish soap.  But those are MY opinions.  

I would use a 100% coconut oil recipe with 0% superfat and no glycerin.  You need the high cleansing of the coconut oil.  You don't need oil left on your dishes, and dishes don't need glycerin.  If you have some hand made soap, you can grate 0.5 oz into the oils before adding the lye water to speed trace.  Just be sure it is real soap, not commercially produced synthetic detergent bars.

The SBM lye calculator already adjusts for the purity of the KOH.  It is close enough to what you use to not worry about the difference.  

You can use the heat transfer method if your house is warm.  Just be sure that the heat of the lye water completely melts your coconut oil.  

I would use that method for making soap, I do it all the time.  And yes, your paste should not require cooking.  Don't be surprised if you don't see flying bubbles.  I don't at times.

Be sure to run every recipe, regardless of where you got it from, through a reliable soap calculator for yourself.  Typos happen.


----------



## IrishLass

I agree with Susie- I would only use 100% coconut oil at a 0% superfat for dish soap.

As for whether to make it via the glycerin method or just by using water, I must confess I'm partial to the glycerin method for it's ease and quickness. My one batch of 100% CO with 0% superfat was the fastest of all my batches to turn into paste without the use of a stickblender and without cooking it- it just took 1 hour to turn to paste just sitting on its own off-heat). For what it's worth, it cleans plenty fine for me- so fine that I need to wear protective gloves when I use it or else my hands go screaming to the high hills for the lotion- but I have not made a batch without glycerin to compare.

IrishLass


----------



## jnl

I have super sensitive hands, and hate wearing gloves when I wash dishes.  Is there any way to make it so it wouldnt leave a coating on the dishes but also wouldnt strip my hands?  would adding something like shea butter help to increase conditioning but still keep it at a 0% superfat?  (i would go with at least 0.5% superfat, especially since my KOH is a slightly higher % than 90)

I already have some grated 100% CO soap (1% superfat), but that was made with NaOH.  Still better to make a different batch with KOH than melt my existing stuff in water?


----------



## jnl

hmm....seems like no one likes the cleaning ability of 100% CO for dishes and hates it on the hands.
so maybe i will try 50% CO and the rest in OO and sunflower or something like that
and if i dont like its cleaning ability, i will try adding a little washing soda and/or borax to see if that improves its cleaning ability.


----------



## CookbookChef

jnl said:


> hmm....seems like no one likes the cleaning ability of 100% CO for dishes and hates it on the hands.
> so maybe i will try 50% CO and the rest in OO and sunflower or something like that
> and if i dont like its cleaning ability, i will try adding a little washing soda and/or borax to see if that improves its cleaning ability.




Good morning jnl
Be watchful on what you add to your liquid soap, certain items have duel purposes. For an example, adding Borax to your liquid soap is more of a ph adjuster, and if you use to much Borax, all that hard work to create your liquid soap will go to waste as you may end up bringing the ph way to low and "breaking" your soap. Meaning, your soap can get down to a point, someplace around a ph of 7% or lower, and turn your soap into an unusable solution, and not soap any longer. Plus, you didn’t want to use castor oil to make your LS, but instead are willing to put an ingredient in your LS that would be worse than castor oil. Not saying that Borax is bad, but it isn’t the trade of you are looking for. There is Lots of controversy going around Borax. Reasons for it, reasons against it. Just do a bit more research before using it, and if you do use Borax, use it the RIGHT way, mixing it first with water to make a solution, then adding it about 1 teaspoon at a time to your LS. but usually this is for bringing the PH down, not for adding cleansing ability to your LS. if you use coconut oil, you should already have a great LS. I don’t have all the answers for you, but it seems like you may want to do a bit more overall research before doing a batch of LS in the first place. Maybe I miss understood how you worded things, but it seemed as if you want to add the KOH Right into your pot of oils WITH The water and or Glycerin. If I mis read, my apologies. You need to make sure your Koh is clear as a bell mixed with the water OR the Glycerin, before adding to the pot of oils. 
You will not get electrocuted, as there is no electricity in the soap, but it is akin to touching your tongue to a 9 volt battery as in the feeling of a very quick uncomfortable tingle/zap that is unmistakable. LS That has no zap, will feel pleasant on the tongue, a touch of sweetness, and no uncomfortable tingly zap when applied to the tongue. For me, I use the Glycerin Method to make my LS, and I also do my dishes with it. If you want to fill a sink up with soapy water, and then place your dishes into this water and proceed to do dishes, this is not really that kind of LS. This soap works better if placed directly on a sponge, and you squeeze it a few times to get up some bubbles, then scrub the dishes with the sponge, you will get beautiful nice clean dishes. Yes, the higher the superfat you do, the higher the chance of having certain feel to your dishes, not greasy, but a small film. Lower or zero superfat helps with that. Saying this, I prefer STILL a 3% superfat cause I don’t want my hands stripped. I DO use castor oil, olive oil, and coconut and for me, I am OK with the feel of my dishes. but if I were to fill a sink full of water and suds, this would NOT work for a 3% superfat, the bubbles would all pop soon enough and yes, you do get a film on top of the water and the dishes. That’s why I add it directly to a sponge. For the most part I end up with clean beautiful dishes. 
Try making it both ways to SEE for yourself the difference, the soap will not be wasted as you can use it for so many applications. It would be educational for you to do zero percent superfat coconut soap, and do a 3% superfat for you to see the difference. In any case, research and extra time given to understand what you are doing will only be helpful in the long run. You don’t need many frustrating soaping days of "jumping into the deep end" times and having failures, this will only frustrate you. Taking a bit of extra time is GOOD so that you have a better understanding of what you are doing and the WHY behind adding new ingredients or exchanging out certain ones and replacing with other ones. Being informed before you start will only help you in the long run. Please ask ALL or any questions so that we can full help you before you begin. We WANT you to have a success here for sure! I am glad that you have the bug and are so eager to start Liquid Soap Making. Just take a step back to really understand why you are replacing or adding ingredients before you do it. IT WOULD be super frustrating to you to make a LS Only to have it fail from adding to much Borax or other items. Have a GREAT DAY!!!


----------



## Lbrown123

You guys are awesome! Now I want to try the liquid soap thing as well! Thanks for posting the tips and advice.


----------



## SoapingSara

Lbrown123 said:


> You guys are awesome! Now I want to try the liquid soap thing as well! Thanks for posting the tips and advice.



Your Welcome as wel all just help each other where we can:wave:


----------



## lizard1232

This may have been answered somewhere and I missed it, but what does the sodium lactate do for liquid soap?


----------



## Susie

It helps the paste not be so hard.  That way you can use less water to dilute and end up with a thicker product.  I am not good at this yet, but I am learning from IrishLass.


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## DeeAnna

I investigated a number of soap recipe calculators to see what purity levels they were using for KOH and NaOH. Since SMF is horrible at presenting tables, I've put the information in a PDF file. I have attached the results to my Post #323 where I discuss this topic in more detail. 

The executive summary of what I found is that* all of the recipe calcs are set to about 100% purity for NaOH*. This is building in a hidden superfat, since most NaOH that soapers use is not 100% pure. 

*Most of the calcs are set for 100% KOH purity* as well, with *three exceptions: SoapCalc (90% or 100%), Brambleberry (95%), and Summer Bee Meadow (94%).*

My suggestion for making liquid soap is to check the purity of the KOH you are using and choose the calc that is based on the KOH purity closest to what you're actually using. By choosing the "wrong" calc for your KOH, you could end up with liquid soap that is lye heavy or fat heavy --

Example 1: You use Soapcalc set at 90%, set the superfat at 3%, and use 95% pure KOH. Your soap could have about 2% too much lye (lye heavy). 

Example 2: You use a calc set for 100% KOH purity, set the superfat at 3%, and use 95% pure KOH. Your soap could have an actual superfat of 8%. This excess fat may make the liquid soap cloudy and may even separate from the soap after dilution.


----------



## IrishLass

lizard1232 said:


> This may have been answered somewhere and I missed it, but what does the sodium lactate do for liquid soap?


 
Basically what Susie said. I like to use it to help the soap paste dissolve quicker and with less hassle (I'm impatient! lol).


IrishLass


----------



## fuzz-juzz

OK, I realised I completely forgot to thank IrishLass for great recipe. So thank you for sharing your recipe and advice! And others in this thread!
I made LS some time in January, went away and we just started using it and it's lovely.

Here are few photos, they are not great as they are taken with my phone, but first one is showing it in a bottle of commercial soap (brand's been scribbled over, I wasn't sure if it can show).
Anyway, it comes out nice, creamy and bubbly and I am very happy with how it turned out on the first try. It's fragranced with BB white tea & ginger and I've added a bit of PS80.

As I've said, I made it a while ago, so I can't really remember the ratio of water to soap, but I think it was way more water to soap.  
It's so that it's able to work in that "foamy" dispenser in the photo. If used in one of those normal ones, I think soap could be a bit more thicker. I was just adding water until it started foaming nicely lol.
I made only 500gr batch but I think we'll be set for a quite a few months with the amount of LS I got.


----------



## shaan

Wow! That looks so pretty. But why my LS never turns so clear?  It always turns dark amber color. I tried everything, but never got clear soap like you all. It foams well,feels nice,but never clear and thick.


----------



## Susie

Are you cooking your soap?  If so, that is the problem.


----------



## Dorymae

Make sure you use distilled water or the soap will be cloudy.


----------



## fuzz-juzz

I'm not sure, I followed the original recipe. Maybe your SF is higher or KOH has less purity?

Oh, I have to report this. I've spilled at least 300ml of it. roblem:
Made up a batch to put into dispenser and was about to put the rest onto the shelf, when disaster struck. Jar slipped in my hands, and while catching it, my thumb popped the lid open and there goes my soap. All over the wall, behind the shelf, all over my tax folders, vacuum cleaner, etc (I store my soap in my storage room, that's way is so much stuff in there).
Well, after at least 30 minutes of cleaning up (husband helped as well) I can say, floor's probably never been cleaner. However, we couldn't move the shelves, there could be some soap stuck underneath, but this will do.
Now I have an excuse to make some more, hey...


----------



## Susie

Speaking from experience, you will be cleaning soap for weeks from there.  Every time you think you have rooted out the last bit, you find more.  That is why my soap is now stored on the bottom shelf of a cabinet.  Less to clean up.


----------



## fuzz-juzz

I have the feeling I will lol.

This was husband's idea since we have a small child though. It was childproof but not idiotproof (me).


----------



## Susie

Oh, small children and cleaning supplies down low don't mix!  But, the great news about liquid soap is that you can store your paste undiluted, then dilute as needed.  And it won't spill everywhere when you put it up high.  My youngest is 18, so I forget about small children.


----------



## ozarkscents

You said "It's very easy to make and it results in the most gorgeous, clear-as-a-bell liquid soap with wonderful, bubbly lather. And by using a dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 (or 75%) water, it dilutes out to a sumptuous consistancy that's beautifully thick and honey-like, but not too thick to clog my pump bottle."

My question is can I start the glycerin and KOH in a crockpot (turned off), then heat it that way? I don't have an exhaust fan above my stove. I could plug the crockpot in outside during that part.

What a wonderful tutorial!

Terry


----------



## Susie

I am not IrishLass, but yes, you can heat it outside.  The crockpot, even on high, is going to take longer than a pot on the stove, though.


----------



## DeeAnna

Or you can dissolve the KOH in room temp water equal to the weight of KOH. The lye will dissolve easily in water ... no heating required. When the KOH is dissolved in the water, then add enough glycerin to bring the water plus glycerin to the correct total weight. Proceed from there per the tutorial.


----------



## shaan

I did not cook the soap.. i mixed oils and glycerin+lye mixture till tiny bubbles started flying.. checked next morning,it was amber colored very thick paste(spoon bend while taking paste out). Then i poured boiling distilled water over it..and then put on stove on very low after every 20-30 mins,when water temperature was going little down..it diluted completely after long hours, but was not too thick, nor clear.


----------



## Susie

You probably overheated the glycerin and lye mixture.  That will turn dark amber in a heartbeat.  I have the same problem every last time I heat the glycerin.  That is why I use water to dissolve the KOH, then add the glycerin to the oils.  I am having trouble with thin soap, also.  That is why I say I am still learning IrishLass' method.


----------



## IrishLass

ozarkscents said:


> You said "It's very easy to make and it results in the most gorgeous, clear-as-a-bell liquid soap with wonderful, bubbly lather. And by using a dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 (or 75%) water, it dilutes out to a sumptuous consistancy that's beautifully thick and honey-like, but not too thick to clog my pump bottle."
> 
> My question is can I start the glycerin and KOH in a crockpot (turned off), then heat it that way? I don't have an exhaust fan above my stove. I could plug the crockpot in outside during that part.
> 
> What a wonderful tutorial!
> 
> Terry


 
Hi Terry!

It would depend on how hot your crockpot is able to get. I cook mine in a pot directly on my stovetop burner set to med-high heat which is able to get the job of dissolving the KOH in the glycerin in a matter of about 10 minutes tops. Glycerin has to be at a good boil in order for the KOH to be able to dissolve completely . From what I understand, the boiling point of glycerin is 554 degreesF/290 degreesC.  

The good news is that you can still do the glycerin method without having to dissolve the KOH in boiling glycerin if you don't want to. Just do exactly what DeeAnna mentioned in her post- dissolve the KOH in room temp water (it dissolves in just a minute or so, tops!) and then add in the glycerin amount that you'd normally use if you were going to boil the glycerin and KOH together. And then you can add the KOH/water/glycerin solution to the pre-warmed oils. I did it that way a few months back and it was great! Here is my post that details my experience doing it that way:  

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=452730&postcount=103

HTH!
IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass

shaan said:
			
		

> But why my LS never turns so clear?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It always turns dark amber color. I tried everything, but never got clear soap like you all. It foams well,feels nice,but never clear and thick.


 


shaan said:


> I did not cook the soap.. i mixed oils and glycerin+lye mixture till tiny bubbles started flying.. checked next morning,it was amber colored very thick paste(spoon bend while taking paste out). Then i poured boiling distilled water over it..and then put on stove on very low after every 20-30 mins,when water temperature was going little down..it diluted completely after long hours, but was not too thick, nor clear.


 
Hi Shaan!

Let's see if we can get this figured out! To be on the safe side, could you post the exact oil types and the recipe amounts of them that you are using, and also how much KOH and what type of water you are using? I want to make sure I have the correct foundation down before I start troubleshooting.

I've just been re-acquainting myself with the whole conversation of the thread (which I've lost track of due to busyness), and so far, one thing sticks out to me as being a very possible suspect....the 85% purity of your KOH and how different the various soap calculators can be when trying to figure out the exact amount of KOH to use in order to match the clear, thick results I get when I use the SBM calculator (whew- that was a mouthful! lol ). I just figured out (only just today as a matter of fact) how to manually calculate for lye purity when calculating a recipe, so I'm ready for some troubleshooting! Hopefully DeeAnna and Susie will be able to double-check my results once I'm done brainstorming.


IrishLass


----------



## Dahila

Mine is amber color too, but it looks that light cause it is dilution into foaming pump.  Is that right? Leave 4 cm on the top add That much distilled water and fill up with your soap) Happy hand washing :mrgreen:


----------



## shaan

Thank you Irish lass!
Ok, here is the amount used-
Olive oil- 325 grams,
Coconut oil-125 grams,
Castor oil-50 grams.

Glycerin-350 grams., lye-115 grams(85% pure)

I first melted coconut oil,then added olive and castor oil to it. I mixed potassium hydroxide pellets in glycerin,then heated it on stove on medium heat and kept mixing it. After 5-7 mins,all lye was mixed completely and it was boiling..i kept mixing all the while.
I immediately added glycerin+KOH to oils,and mixed it with a whisk. Within 4-5 minutes tiny bubbles started flying off the pan.. it was bubbly on top and amber color thin liquid at the bottom..it was very hot to touch..i stopped there,covered it,and left it overnight.. then in the morning i got a very thick paste,half of which i diluted, half i stored in a poly bag.
Diluted 404 grams of paste in 303 grams of water.. i multiplied 404 by 0.75. Hope my maths was correct.. 
I have attached the pics of the lye i use, soap paste,and diluted soap.


----------



## shaan

And yes, i added 12 grams sodium lactate as well.


----------



## DeeAnna

Very nice, Shaan! 

I see your soap is darker amber than the soap I made with the same recipe -- mine is a lighter gold. I wonder -- are any of your oils fairly dark to begin with? Coconut oil that I usually gets ranges from pale yellow to white. Olive oil can be amber to pale yellow. Castor is clear like water. Is this true for your oils?

I ran your recipe through my personal soap calculator. Using your 85% KOH, I'd probably use more like 117 grams of the lye, rather than 115 g. 117 g comes out to be 3% superfat. 115 g is about 5% superfat. 

Honestly, the difference will only be important if you get separation of the fats from the soap after dilution. If you don't see separation, you're fine!


----------



## shaan

Yes, olive oil is golden yellow to amber color(somewhere in between), coconut oil is white, castor oil light yellow. It is around more than 15 days,and this soap has not separated. But i was hoping for a clear soap as others are able to make. 
I don't know actually how to calculate 85% purity. What i do is use soap calc calculator,selecting 90% pure,and then multiply the lye amount by 0.05. As 5% is the difference between 85 and 90. 
I was looking for another lye, but the worse thing, the packet only contains lye without anything written over it.  
And when asked about the purity,the seller says he will confirm from manufacturer and then let me know..its been two weeks of waiting for his confirmation. :-(


----------



## DeeAnna

"...What i do is use soap calc calculator,selecting 90% pure,and then multiply the lye amount by 0.05. As 5% is the difference between 85 and 90...."

This is a good approach to the problem, but may I suggest doing this instead. I think it will give you more accurate results...

***

1. Calculate the KOH at whatever purity you choose in SoapCalc. 
Let's say you stick with the 90% purity option in SoapCalc. Using the recipe you gave above, the result I get is 110.7 grams of 90% pure KOH. 
If your number is a bit different, that's fine. Just use the number you get from SoapCalc. 

2. Correct the weight of the KOH needed based on the actual purity of your KOH: 
Grams KOH at 85% purity = 110.7 X 90 / 85 = 117.2 grams

***

Look at the fraction of 90 / 85 in the math problem above. See how the first number is the purity used in the calculations and the second number is the actual purity you want? 

Here's the generic formula so you can use this for any soap recipe:

Grams KOH at your actual purity = (grams KOH based on the soap calculator's purity) X (Soap calculator's KOH purity) / (Your actual KOH purity)

I hope this make sense!


----------



## shaan

That was amazing Dee Anna! Simple yet Great explanation! It is quite clear now..i will try make next soap with this calculation. Hope it turns clear.
I have one more question, if you could help out..
All the liquid soaps i made earlier with water,not the glycerin method, are thick when bottled,but after 15-20 days,turn thin. And when used in the beginning, little soap creates good foam,but later i have to use more soap,but feels little oily and less cleaning. And all my soaps turn dark in color,whatever oil combination i use.. is it because of wrong lye calculation or some other reason?
I tried to thicken one with HEC, was thick when bottled(like commercial shampoo) , then after two weeks,it was very thick at the bottom, and thin liquid on top.


----------



## Susie

I made the IrishLass' LGS yesterday.(50% water/50% glycerin)  I got interrupted after running the stick blender a couple of 30 second bursts.  I was away from the pot probably 3 minutes.  Came back to find the bottom of it had turned to paste, and the top still liquid.  I ran the SB another 30 seconds, and watched it turn to paste.  No bubbles flying, but I had the most perfect soft paste I have ever seen.  I put the lid on, and had supper.  When I finished eating, I peeked at the paste, perfect gel with no discoloration, whatsoever.  So I added SL and water.  Then I put the lid on and walked away.

Fast forward to 2 am, and the whole top half of the soap is diluted.  I poked holes in the paste with the spoon so the water could get down through the rest.  

This has really been an amazing batch of LGS.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...All the liquid soaps i made earlier with water,not the glycerin method, are thick when bottled,but after 15-20 days,turn thin. And when used in the beginning, little soap creates good foam,but later i have to use more soap,but feels little oily and less cleaning. And all my soaps turn dark in color,whatever oil combination i use.. is it because of wrong lye calculation or some other reason?..."

Shaan -- I have been away from home a lot recently, so I didn't see your question until today. I'm sorry for the delay.

I don't have good answers for you about why your soaps turn thin with time and why they are dark. I have seen your pictures and agree your soap paste is darker than mine. 

I really don't think these problems are because your calculations are bad. That said, next time please use the formula I suggested in Post 409. That will reduce your superfat a little bit, and I think that will be a good thing.

I'm really hoping someone else has suggestions for you, because I don't have good advice to offer! Sometimes I need to stand by the person as they do something -- and by watching the person and what they do, the problems become clear. Since I cannot do that with you, I'm stumped.


----------



## ngian

Another great thread full of great tips and advices. LS is already in my to do list.

I have found KOH with 90% purity and with 85%. The second purity is also available in a "chemistry cleaned" version that costs more than the "dirtier" one. Which one would you recommend? 

Nikos


----------



## DeeAnna

I personally would get the cleaned version if my budget allowed and the cost difference wasn't ridiculously large. It's my guess that more impurities may increase your chance of cloudy soap, if a goal is for your soap to be as clear as possible.


----------



## galaxyMLP

I got some "expired" 45% w/w KOH in water from a lab I used to work at. It was never even opened but b/c of the possibility of it changing concentration just a little, they were going to throw it out... I got a full 4 L bottle for free. It makes very clear soap because of the lack of other impurities.


----------



## DeeAnna

Niiiiicccce! Great score, Galaxy!


----------



## shaan

Hey all!! M so happy! Finally got clear liquid soap..yeah yeah..this was from the remaining paste of same batch..this means i might have over heated the soap while dilution..
I will definitely use the calculation given by you, Dee Anna..then will update you.
M sooooo happy thanx everyone for your help.


----------



## DeeAnna

Bravo, Shaan!!!!!! Good work.


----------



## IrishLass

Yay! I'm so happy for you, Shaan!


IrishLass


----------



## SoapingSara

IrishLass said:


> Hi Chef!
> 
> Yes- after I have diluted my paste and made it nice and pearly with stearic acid and PS80 to emulsify, I weigh it, and then I add in a 2% superfat as per the weight of the diluted soap (not the paste) that my scale shows me (along with more PS80 to emulsify the 2% superfat). My superfat oil of choice is Meadowfoam Seed Oil. I love that stuff!
> 
> 
> HTH!
> IrishLass



Goodmorning, I was looking over the notes here and I had a thought. I was wondering if I should be adding PS20 or PS80 For any and all superfat extra oils I add to my finished Liquid Soap. I see here above in your comments to Chef that you do, but is that the general rule for most Liquid Soap Recipes anyway? To add an emulsifier to added superfat oils in the finished Liquid Soap? Sometimes I add a splash of oil while dilution is taking place and my end product seems to still be ok if I use just a bit of added oil. I was wondering what the standard thing to do tho when adding extra superfat oils to a finished LS. Thanks


----------



## Susie

OK, let's define "superfat" first.  Superfat is truly fat added at the end of gel in a HP soap.  If you are referring to the lye discount we normally see called superfat on a soap calculator, then it is not true superfat.  

If you make liquid soap, you typically use either a lye excess and then neutralize, or use a lye discount of 0-5% to avoid neutralizing.  

However, if you use >3% lye discount(AKA superfat, although it is an erroneous term), you have a much better chance of having cloudy soap, or separation of the fatty acids with a layer of cloudy matter on top.  So, many of us use on 0-3% lye discount to avoid this.

You can also get a layer of cloudiness on the top of the liquid soap with some FOs or EOs.

You only NEED to use an emulsifier when you have separation and a fatty layer on top.  If you don't have that issue, you don't need PS80 or PS20.

I would never add "just a splash" of oils to my carefully weighed and calculated soap.


----------



## IrishLass

Hi Sara!

If your finished soap with the added splash of oil does not separate on you, then you have no need to add an emulsifier. I add one to mine because it separates asfter a few months if I don't. As an aside, I add PS80 instead of PS20 for this job because it is more suited for emulsifying things like fats than is PS20. 


IrishLass 

Edited to add: Just saw Susie's post and I must agree that I would never add 'just a splash' of oil to my finished soap. Everything is carefully weighed and calculated.


----------



## ngian

OK I 've got everything I need to try for the first time the CP LGS. I only need to find some time. 

I just have a few questions :

1) can I use a herbal tea made with distilled water for the dilution (chamomile, calendula ect.)? 

2) can I use sugar or anything else like in CP for more bubbles and when? 

Thank you in advance. 

Nikos


----------



## DeeAnna

The general rule is to only use distilled water for dilution because there is too much potential for microbial growth with anything else. I don't think adding sugar at the time of dilution is any wiser than using a tea. If you're determined to do it, however, a suitable broad spectrum preservative is an absolute must.

Whether sugar adds bubbles if used when making the paste, I can't say -- I've never tried it.


----------



## Susie

^ What DeeAnna said!  Only distilled water for dilution!  If you want to use teas, use them as the batch water(to mix with the KOH), so that all possible pathogens are killed with the KOH.

I have never found sugar to help liquid soap with bubbles, whatsoever.  Castor oil does help stabilize the bubbles that the CO gives, though.  I use it in hand soaps, but not laundry soap.


----------



## IrishLass

Ditto what DeeAnna and Susie said.

Re: sugar- Although I use it in my bar soaps, I've never used it in my liquid soap. I find my GLS lathers perfectly fine without it.


IrishLass


----------



## Rowan

I read through this amazing thread and decided to give GLS a go.  I was completely muddled initially by the different figures given by the LS calculators.  There was even a difference between SBM advanced and basic calculaors! I finally settled on SBM advanced, as suggested by Irish Lass and decided to use my American scales as oz differ between England and the USA.

I wanted to stick exactly to the tutorial on my first attempt.  The first picture is just after the flying bubble stage. What a wonderful feeling when the bubbles start flying. Pure magic!! 

for some reason I can only load one photo at a time. My second photo is 2 hours later. I was a bit concerned about the solid white layer but could see the taffy coloured soap underneath. By accident it looks like a face!

My final photo shows the final diluted GLS. I'm so excited that it turned out ok and really wanted to share (image of me running round the kitchen like a mad woman, shouting it worked, it worked!)  I just want to say thankyou so much to Irish Lass for posting this amazing amazing recipe from Catherine Peterson and fantastic tutorial Thanks to everyone else for inputting some fantastic advice on this thread, that made it easier to problem solve.  It worked :clap:


----------



## Rowan

2nd photo


----------



## Rowan

Final photo


----------



## ngian

Well done Rowan I'm jealous, I'm waiting for the moment that I'll feel the same with you.

Thank you girls for your answers about sugars and Susie for the tip about tea.

I have another technical question that may not be very relative to this thread but it is used as an ingredient at least.

I have KOH and I'm thinking of buying 1 kg Lactic Acid, to make Potassium Lactate (maybe 60% or 50% solution what do you suggest?) for the liquid soap . I know that sodium lactate can be used in both CP bar soap and liquid soap as IrishLass is using it. Potassium Lactate can be used for surely in liquid soap, but can it be used for CP bar soap too with the same effect as sodium lactate?

Nikos


----------



## Rowan

Good luck with your GLS. I'm sure it will work out great, it's an awesome recipe. It's like liquid gold.


----------



## IrishLass

Yay! I'm so happy for you Rowan! That makes my day! 
Is this what you looked like? :arrow:




IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass

ngian said:


> Thank you girls for your answers about sugars and Susie for the tip about tea.
> 
> I have another technical question that may not be very relative to this thread but it is used as an ingredient at least.
> 
> I have KOH and I'm thinking of buying 1 kg Lactic Acid, to make Potassium Lactate (maybe 60% or 50% solution what do you suggest?) for the liquid soap . I know that sodium lactate can be used in both CP bar soap and liquid soap as IrishLass is using it. Potassium Lactate can be used for surely in liquid soap, but can it be used for CP bar soap too with the same effect as sodium lactate?
> 
> Nikos


 
That looks like a question for DeeAnna! Hopefully she'll chime in soon.


IrishLass


----------



## Rowan

IrishLass said:


> Yay! I'm so happy for you Rowan! That makes my day!
> Is this what you looked like? :arrow:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IrishLass



That's so funny, it's exactly what I looked like! I must have looked like some mad scientist with a Eureka moment!!!!


----------



## DeeAnna

I don't know that potassium lactate will perform the same as sodium lactate in soap, but it's certainly worth a try. 

10 g lactic acid neutralizes 4.44 g NaOH
10 g lactic acid neutralizes 6.23 g KOH


----------



## Pepsi Girl

Okay I have read and reread this lengthy post.  Here's my questions

Irish Lass do I understand you no longer use the advanced calculator?

Am I not seeing it or is there no way to change the SBM to oil % versus oil ozs?

And this is not a question this is a fact I totally dislike the tongue zap test, it so reminds me of childhood.
My mother was a firm believer in washing your mouth out with soap!


----------



## IrishLass

Pepsi Girl said:


> Okay I have read and reread this lengthy post. Here's my questions
> 
> Irish Lass do I understand you no longer use the advanced calculator?


 
I still presently utilize it at this time.  



Pepsi Girl said:


> Am I not seeing it or is there no way to change the SBM to oil % versus oil ozs?


 
No- there's no way to change it (at least as far as I know, anyway). It was a bit of a hassle, but what I did was to type the recipe into SoapCalc to get the percentages (and the gram amounts), then I went back to SBM and got the proper KOH and glycerin amounts. Then I wrote it all down in my notebook for all posterity so that I could go by what I wrote instead of typing the recipe in afresh each time I make it. This works out fine for me because I pretty much always make the same size batch of the formula each time. 



Pepsi Girl said:


> And this is not a question this is a fact I totally dislike the tongue zap test, it so reminds me of childhood.
> My mother was a firm believer in washing your mouth out with soap!


 
LOL Well, one of the cool things about making liquid soap via the glycerin method is that the soap actually tastes _sweet_ (from the glycerin).


IrishLass


----------



## ngian

Well I finally found the time to make the CP Liquid Glycerine Soap 

-65% Olive Oil 
-25% Coconut Oil
-10% Castor Oil
-Superfatted @ 3%

except that instead of Coconut I used PKO. I 'm amazed of how easy and quickly is for anyone to make the paste.

I used DeeAnna's method of dissolving KOH into water first, and then adding glycerine where water equals KOH and glycerin = 2x water.

It took me 30-40 minutes to create the paste from scratch, and after additional 20 minutes the paste passed successfully the zap test. The initial time to create the paste would be much sorter if :

1) I would melt PalmKernel oil in a microwave oven (that we don't have on purpose) instead of my oven or melt it right away with the hot lye solution.

2) I would mix KOH+water+glycerine solution with the oils at its higher temperature (70C - 158F) instead of the cooler 50C-122F that I finally did. This resulted in stickBlending for more than 15min in order to reach trace.

The next day I diluted some portion of the paste with 1 part paste and 75% of its weight with deionized water and because of the fact that the paste was cut in big pieces, some of them were outside the water surface even when I tried to squeeze them a little. So I decided to add more water reaching the 89% water amount. I also added 3% Sodium Lactate. The day after that the liquid was ready!












It has an olive oil color, so I must hide it somewhere that no one will think it is food grade oil! It is more watery in thickness than honey but not as water. It has a nice feeling when I wash my hands. But I feel like that it is not making as fast and as much bubbles as a CP bar would do with almost the same % of oils. 

a) Is it for the rate of dilution? 

b) Adding little salt solution (20%) would thicken even more the soap, but would also cut from lather?

c) If I lower the superfat to 2% or 1% would that also add more bubbles as the same would happen to a CP soap?

Next time I will add sugar and maybe sodium citrate in water prior mixing KOH, so as to see if they would also enhanced bubbles.






Thank you all for all the tips and advices!
Nikoshttp://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## Susie

Liquid soap does not lather like CP soap.  It is just the nature of the product.  

Salt will not help a soap with 25% Coconut Oil.  I am not sure about the PKO.  I would not have used PKO in liquid soap.  It is not interchangeable in liquid soap like it is in bar soap, IMHO.  I was unimpressed with PKO in the two times I tried it.  It just costs too much for too little return.  

The SF at 3% or below is about the best you are going to get for bubbles.  It may just be the PKO, but again, liquid soap does not produce the plentiful bubbles like CP bar soap does.  

Glycerin acts like a sugar here.  Adding additional sugar will not boost lather.

*"I used DeeAnna's method of dissolving KOH into water first, and then adding glycerine where water equals KOH and glycerin = 3x water."*

I think you mean that the water/glycerin amount equals the KOH x 3?  If so, that is the correct proportion.


----------



## ngian

Thanx Susie for your input.

Well I was thinking of making a liquid shampoo that's why I was looking for more bubbles to easily wash, or at least feel that my hair is actually being washed.I'll try use less superfat along with CO instead of PKO.

Yes I did a typo on the glycerin amount. I added *2* x the amount of water with glycerine.


----------



## Susie

But the total water/glycerin was 3 times the amount of KOH?  If so, that is still fine.  

You can make paste with as little as 2 parts water/glycerin to 1 part KOH, but the paste is super hard and difficult to work with.  I think it takes longer to dilute also.


----------



## ngian

Yes I did use 25% KOH Concentration instead of 33% and the paste is averagely soft.


----------



## Susie

Good.  That is some gorgeous clear soap, by the way.  Awesome job!


----------



## ngian

If I would use 33% KOH Concentration would that affect the dilution rate for the paste as there must be more soap concentration per weight in paste?


----------



## Susie

I much prefer the 1:3 KOH/H2O ratio.  I find it dilutes much easier.  But, I learned this by trial and error, so you need to find out for yourself, also.  

It will affect the dilution rate a little.  But, dilution is easy enough to adjust, if you find you have a lump or two left over, just add a bit more water.


----------



## ngian

Susie said:


> Good.  That is some gorgeous clear soap, by the way.  Awesome job!



Thank you, it must be for the reason that I used a chemically cleared koh that costs 10€/kilo (85% purity).


----------



## Pepsi Girl

IrishLass said:


> LOL Well, one of the cool things about making liquid soap via the glycerin method is that the soap actually tastes _sweet_ (from the glycerin).
> 
> 
> IrishLass



I failed big time zap!nothing sweet about it!



Don't know why the first time I ran the numbers, came up with 

11 oz Glyercin
3.5 oz KOH

OO 10.40 oz
CO   4 oz
Castor 1.6 oz


Reran after failure


Total oil weight	16 oz
Water as percent of oil weight	38.00 %
Super Fat/Discount	3 %
Lye Concentration	36.851 %
Water : Lye Ratio	1.7136:1
Sat : Unsat Ratio	32 : 68


                                 	Ounces
Water	                        6.08	
Lye - KOH    90% pure	3.55	


        	Oil/Fat	               %	Ounces	
1		Castor Oil	                10.00	1.60	       
2		Coconut Oil, 76 deg	25.00	4.00
3		Olive Oil	                 65.00	10.40	
 	 	Totals	               100.00	16.00	


Or on SBM it's 10.19 water/glyercin
	so I'm conused I actually use more Glyercin than I should have
What say you?


----------



## IrishLass

ngian said:
			
		

> It has an olive oil color, so I must hide it somewhere that no one will think it is food grade oil!


 
It looks beautiful! :clap:



			
				ngian said:
			
		

> It is more watery in thickness than honey but not as water. It has a nice feeling when I wash my hands.


 
If you want it to be thicker, and you still have some of your paste on hand, one of the better ways to thicken it up is to add a little bit more paste to the diluted soap and gently heat it up (covered) to encourage the bit of paste to soften up like jelly. Once it's as soft as jelly, then blend it with the stick-blender to get it to incorporate into the main body of soap. Works like a charm if you are careful to not add too much paste at a time, otherwise you'll have to correct with extra water. LOL Or, anther good way is to dump your diluted soap into a pot or crockpot and gently heat it with the cover off to evaporate some of the water off. I've done it both ways and they both do a good job. Make sure to weigh everything before and after and remember to keep plenty of notes! 



			
				ngian said:
			
		

> But I feel like that it is not making as fast and as much bubbles as a CP bar would do with almost the same % of oils.


 
Like Susie said, liquid soap lathers differently than bar soap. I could be wrong, but I think it might have something to do with the 'friction factor'. In other words, I find that more friction is usually applied when lathering a solid bar than when lathering a liquid soap. A good demonstration of the 'friction factor' in action is my 100% Castile bar soap, which has pitifully poor (if any) lather unless I apply a good dose of friction to it via my nylon pouf. With that extra bit of friction, a lathering miracle occurs and I have so much crazy lather from my Castile that it has to be seen to be believed! 

For what it's worth, I add tetrasodium EDTA to my liquid soap because of our hard water, and I find Carrie's olive oil recipe to lather just fine for me, but I only use it at the sink for washing my hands- I've never tried washing my hair with it. Tetrasodium EDTA (like sodium citrate) helps soap to lather better in hard water.



			
				ngian said:
			
		

> If I lower the superfat to 2% or 1% would that also add more bubbles as the same would happen to a CP soap?


 
Yes, but it might not feel as nice on your skin. I'd try adding some of your sodium citrate next time you dilute and see what happens.

IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass

Pepsi Girl said:


> I failed big time zap!nothing sweet about it!
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know why the first time I ran the numbers, came up with
> 
> 11 oz Glyercin
> 3.5 oz KOH
> 
> OO 10.40 oz
> CO 4 oz
> Castor 1.6 oz


 
Hi Pepsi Girl!

I just entered in the recipe on SBM's Advanced calculator and it gave me my normal amounts of 3.4 oz KOH and 10.19 oz. water (or glycerin) for a 16 oz. batch of this recipe.

Are you saying that you used SBM's Advanced calculator and it gave you 11 oz glycerin and 3.5 oz KOH? If so, then a box must not have been filled in somewhere or something. Can you tell me what boxes you filled in on SBM's calculator? 



			
				Pepsi Girl said:
			
		

> Reran after failure
> 
> 
> Total oil weight 16 oz
> Water as percent of oil weight 38.00 %
> Super Fat/Discount 3 %
> Lye Concentration 36.851 %
> Water : Lye Ratio 1.7136:1
> Sat : Unsat Ratio 32 : 68
> 
> 
> Ounces
> Water 6.08
> Lye - KOH 90% pure 3.55
> 
> 
> Oil/Fat % Ounces
> 1 Castor Oil 10.00 1.60
> 2 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 25.00 4.00
> 3 Olive Oil 65.00 10.40
> Totals 100.00 16.00


 
The above figures look like they are from SoapCalc? If so, just to let you know, I don't like the lower water amounts that SoapCalc suggests for liquid soaps (which from your figures above show me a ratio of 1.7 parts water to 1 part KOH). The SBM calculator in comparison uses a much higher water to lye ratio: 3 parts water to 1 part KOH), or a 25% lye solution, which works s_oooooo_ much better for liquid soap, I've found. 

Also- SoapCalc's lye amount for a 3% S/F @ 90% purity is also higher than the default lye amount for a 3% S/F that SBM's calculator gives me. On the SBM calculator, an amount of 3.55 oz lye turns out to be a -1% superfat for this recipe. 

I personally would not use those figures you listed above from SoapCalc to make this recipe. I would stick to the amounts that the SBM calculator gives for this particular recipe, namely 3.4 oz KOH and 10.19 oz. glycerin. If you stick to those instead, I have every confidence that you will have much better success.  



			
				Pepsi Girl said:
			
		

> Or on SBM it's 10.19 water/glyercin
> so I'm conused I actually use more Glyercin than I should have
> What say you?


 
If you used 11 oz of glycerin, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. What concerns me much more is the higher amount of KOH that you used: 3.5 oz. instead of 3.4 oz.,  which gave you a 0% S/F instead of a 3% S/F.


IrishLass


----------



## Pepsi Girl

IrishLass said:


> Hi Pepsi Girl!
> 
> I just entered in the recipe on SBM's Advanced calculator and it gave me my normal amounts of 3.4 oz KOH and 10.19 oz. water (or glycerin) for a 16 oz. batch of this recipe.
> 
> Are you saying that you used SBM's Advanced calculator and it gave you 11 oz glycerin and 3.5 oz KOH? If so, then a box must not have been filled in somewhere or something. Can you tell me what boxes you filled in on SBM's calculator?
> 
> I think this was because I did not understand that calculator
> 
> The above figures look like they are from SoapCalc? If so, just to let you know, I don't like the lower water amounts that SoapCalc suggests for liquid soaps (which from your figures above show me a ratio of 1.7 parts water to 1 part KOH). The SBM calculator in comparison uses a much higher water to lye ratio: 3 parts water to 1 part KOH), or a 25% lye solution, which works s_oooooo_ much better for liquid soap, I've found.
> Yes this was fromSoapCalc, but after I already messed up
> Also- SoapCalc's lye amount for a 3% S/F @ 90% purity is also higher than the default lye amount for a 3% S/F that SBM's calculator gives me. On the SBM calculator, an amount of 3.55 oz lye turns out to be a -1% superfat for this recipe.
> 
> I personally would not use those figures you listed above from SoapCalc to make this recipe. I would stick to the amounts that the SBM calculator gives for this particular recipe, namely 3.4 oz KOH and 10.19 oz. glycerin. If you stick to those instead, I have every confidence that you will have much better success.
> 
> Thanks I will be trying again
> 
> If you used 11 oz of glycerin, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. What concerns me much more is the higher amount of KOH that you used: 3.5 oz. instead of 3.4 oz.,  which gave you a 0% S/F instead of a 3% S/F.
> 
> IrishLass


 So throw it away or try to fix?

Thanks for your thoughts, Irish Lass


----------



## IrishLass

Pepsi Girl said:


> So throw it away or try to fix?
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts, Irish Lass


 
If it were me, I wouldn't throw it away. Being the cockeyed optimist that I am, I hate throwing soap away if there's any kind of chance I can do something to at least make it safe and/or usable in some way.

Since you have a higher amount of KOH in it than what SBM's calculator gives for a 3% S/F, what I would do would be to try to reverse-engineer/figure out how much oil is needed to bring the S/F up to what the SBM calculator gives for a 3% S/F, and then add that amount during dilution.

Either that, or you could guestimate things and just add in a little bit more oil to the mix when you go to dilute (maybe a teaspoon at a time), test for zap after each addition, and stop when no more zap is detected. And if you notice the diluted soap separating at all after having done that, you could always just add some PS80 to it to emulsify the oil into the mix. 

Anyway, that's what I would do if it were me.

IrishLass


----------



## ngian

Thank you for the thickening tips IrishLass. 



IrishLass said:


> I apply a good dose of friction to it via my nylon pouf. With that extra bit of friction, a lathering miracle occurs and I have so much crazy lather from my Castile that it has to be seen to be believed!



I have also noticed that too with a Castile soap and one with coconut oil included soap bar. They both lather great with a naylon pouf but castile 's lather fades away quickly. 



> I'd try adding some of your sodium citrate next time you dilute and see what happens.
> 
> IrishLass



How much should I use while diluting the paste? Should I use the powdered version straight away or a solution of it?


----------



## Pepsi Girl

IrishLass said:


> If it were me, I wouldn't throw it away.
> 
> Anyway, that's what I would do if it were me.
> 
> IrishLass



That was my thoughts as well!  Working on it now.  Will let you know


----------



## Pepsi Girl

It's working!  The paste is a  caramel color, taffy texture!
I thought the soap was ready for a picture but alas it was still a bit camera shy. But here's the taffy!


----------



## IrishLass

ngian said:


> Thank you for the thickening tips IrishLass.
> 
> How much should I use while diluting the paste? Should I use the powdered version straight away or a solution of it?


 
You're welcome!  I hope DeeAnna or Susie or Faith can pop in can advise on the amount of sodium citrate. I've never used it before myself, so I'm not sure what the optimum range is for liquid soap. For what it's worth, though, I've seen where others have used it @ .1% ppo in their bar soaps with good success. I suppose you could try it at that rate and dissolve it into your dilution water before adding to the paste, but hopefully DeeAnna or Susie or Faith will chime in and confirm first if that is a good amount for liquid soap. 


IrishLass


----------



## ngian

IrishLass said:


> For what it's worth, though, I've seen where others have used it @ .1% ppo in their bar soaps with good success. I suppose you could try it at that rate and dissolve it into your dilution water before adding to the paste, but hopefully DeeAnna or Susie or Faith will chime in and confirm first if that is a good amount for liquid soap.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Well I have tried it @ 3% of the total oils in a soap bar, and it works fine as the soap makes bigger bubbles for start. 

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=513460

But using it for a dilution of a liquid soap it may need lesser amount as it may drop down the PH and as a result the soap won't work as expected. 

Nikos


----------



## Susie

I have soft water, sorry.  I am no help.


----------



## Pepsi Girl

Not a sunny day but you can see it's pretty clear and it lathers.  I'm a happy camper! I feel like dancing


----------



## Pepsi Girl

Hum, I guess you can't see that it's clear.  Some reason it didn't post both pictures.  Well I'm not walking back over to my soaping room you'll just have to take my word!


----------



## liquidsoaplady

The soap is beautiful!! Nice and clear, wish I could try them! But boy, a lot of work, I don't go through nearly as much work to make my soaps..........


----------



## IrishLass

liquidsoaplady said:


> But boy, a lot of work, I don't go through nearly as much work to make my soaps..........


 
Hello Liquidsoaplady.  Being that this thread is geared toward each of us sharing our GLS experiments and successes and failures with each other, would you care to share more about your process with us? 


IrishLass


----------



## ngian

ngian said:


> But I feel like that it is not making as fast and as much bubbles as a CP bar would do with almost the same % of oils.




Well after a week's (and more) "curing" I feel that the liquid soap is overall better in the silky feeling that it gives to the hands, and lather is being created somehow faster.

I decided to dilute the same diluted paste more (x1,87 paste's weight) so as to use it in a foam pump bottle and here is how it works:






_1 pump_





_2 pumps_ - excess lather falls down in the sink...

I have also inserted a few drops of lavender EO which has made the dilution a bit fuzzy along with a very small white cloudy part but I guess it is normal.

The next experiment will be with diluting to more honey like liquid soap (x 0.75 paste's weight) along with little portion of sodium citrate (maybe 3%).

Nikos


----------



## Susie

Looks just like my foamer soap.  I think it is perfect!


----------



## springonions

Hi, I am new here and it is my first time posting a question.

Irishlass mentioned that at the Dish Forum, there is a looooooong glycerin liquid soap thread.  Could someone tell me where the thread is please?  I can't find the Dish Forum.


----------



## Susie

Here you go:

http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/i...ethod-liquid-soap/?hl=+liquid++glycerin++soap

If you have trouble accessing their site(I did for a LONG time), all the pertinent info to make wonderful liquid soap is in this forum.


----------



## springonions

Thanks, Susie.  I have now registered at the Dish Forum.  I must say that this thread is so informative that any serious LS soaper should read it at least twice.  Thank you guys for so willing to share your valuable experience and knowledge.


----------



## glassfishy

Hey Guys... I am hoping to get some direction on my LS making adventures. I have attempted (3) separate batches and all have failed in some way. When I saw the glycerin method and how everyone said it was fool proof I had to give it a try.

ATTEMPT #1. Approx. 6 mos ago I attempted making a LS batch in the crockpot with all water. The start of it followed the directions to the sticky mashed potato consistency and the video that I watched stated they let theirs cook on a low temp in the oven for 10+ hours while occasionally stirring. I did this and could never get it to the translucent paste stage. It ended up in a bucket in my garage... 

ATTEMPT #2. Last week I attempted a second try which was also ALL water using fairly similar amounts of OO/CO/Castor Oil with IrishLass's recipe. I started it while at our shop in the crock pot and allowed it to cook while I worked and occasionally stirred. This was based off a Soapqueen video and recipe. I ended up having to take my crockpot home and continue the cooking process because It constantly stayed in the sticky mashed potato stage. Later that night before going to bed I turned it off and while it looked dark amber in color and thicker I was still unsure. The next morning I looked and to my surprise Thick amber paste. Zap test was perfect. The next day I diluted (way too much as per the soapqueen recipe) and allowed to cool adn sit for several days until I got back to the shop. When I checked on it today it was cloudy and upon stirring it... it was as if there was a sediment on the bottom of the pan that made it opaque white again. I decided to go on and thicken and fragrance just to see what I got and it was just plain awful. 

So that's when I stumbled upon the Glycerin method...
ATTEMPT #3. Later today I took my supplies home and attempted the Glycerin method. Here are my exact steps...

Measured: 24oz. TOTAL OILS
15.6 oz. Olive Oil 65%
6 oz. Coconut Oil 25%
2.4 Castor Oil 10%

Measured: 
15.14 oz Glycerin
5.05 oz. KOH

1. In my soap pot I melted my oils on low temperature to get them all to a liquid state and clear
2. in my newly bought KOH/Glycerin pot I melted on medium High heat until white KOH was melted. 
3. I poured my KOH/Glycerin mixture into my soap pot and stick blended for more 8-12 minutes. I started to get the TINY little bubbles floating in the air... BUT I never got any translucent stages. It basically stayed like amber thick pudding. It reminded me much of like when you make peanut brittle and it's a thick sugary liquid. I finally tried to use a whisk just to see if I got different results and nada.
4. I then remembered that IrishLass said to put a lid on it and forget it. It's only been several hours but I just feel like it's completely wrong. I keep reading the posts and see where everyone says theirs turned translucent and had a beer head on it. My just looks like thick taffy peanut butter...

I'm really getting frustrated because I truly want to make liquid soap. I'm not sure if there is anything that I'm using that might be causing the problem...

My KOH came from Essential Depot Potassium Hydroxide caustic Potash KOH Flakes
My Glycerin is all vegetable
Stainless steel pots and utensils
Stainless Steel stick blender
Oils: Olive/Rice Bran blend; 76 Coconut Oil; Castor oil... 

Any help, directions would be greatly appreciated. I've been a long time CP soap maker and really want to learn what I am doing wrong.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Have you tried http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852 and  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114?


----------



## Susie

The first thing I see is that you are using an olive/rice bran blend rather than pure olive oil.  RBO has different SAP values than olive oil.  Any time you change oils, you need to re-run the recipe through a lye calculator.  The second thing I see is the dark color, which tells me that the glycerin got too hot.  I don't know what else could have gone wrong, but that is where I would start.  

Which lye calculator are you using for those batches?

Also, please do not go get Catherine Failor's book on liquid soapmaking right now...you do not need any more complications.  Once you have a successful batch or two, you can go read that so you can have some alternate recipes to tweak yourself.  But be sure to run those through a lye calculator yourself, using a 0-3% superfat to avoid using borax for neutralization.


----------



## glassfishy

Susie said:


> The first thing I see is that you are using an olive/rice bran blend rather than pure olive oil.  RBO has different SAP values than olive oil.  Any time you change oils, you need to re-run the recipe through a lye calculator.  The second thing I see is the dark color, which tells me that the glycerin got too hot.  I don't know what else could have gone wrong, but that is where I would start.
> 
> Which lye calculator are you using for those batches?



Hey Susie... Actually I should have been more specific. I ran my numbers through the SummerBee SC as everyone suggested for liquid soap. And I actually did put in my values for a 50:50 olive oil/rice bran mix. So where I stated in my post that I put in 15.6 of olive oil I actually put in the calculator 7.8 olive oil and 7.8 rice bran. And that's where my KOH/Glycerin numbers were derived from.

As far as getting too hot I placed my glycerin and KOH in the pot at room temperature and continually stirred on medium heat. I did heat it a bit past complete dissolution of the KOH because I was unsure if those tiny small bubbles you get after removing from heat at the bottom of the pan meant it wasn't fully dissolved. 



Susie said:


> Also, please do not go get Catherine Failor's book on liquid soapmaking right now...you do not need any more complications.  Once you have a successful batch or two, you can go read that so you can have some alternate recipes to tweak yourself.  But be sure to run those through a lye calculator yourself, using a 0-3% superfat to avoid using borax for neutralization.



And I did the 3% superfat in summerbee. I'm just so bumfuzzled with the LS... :sad:


----------



## glassfishy

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Have you tried http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852 and http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114?


Eff Gent...

Thanks... Yes the second link is where I got the glycerin recipe from and was excited to try... I followed IrishLass's recipe and technique to the T...



glassfishy said:


> Hey Susie... Actually I should have been more specific. I ran my numbers through the SummerBee SC as everyone suggested for liquid soap. And I actually did put in my values for a 50:50 olive oil/rice bran mix. So where I stated in my post that I put in 15.6 of olive oil I actually put in the calculator 7.8 olive oil and 7.8 rice bran. And that's where my KOH/Glycerin numbers were derived from.
> 
> As far as getting too hot I placed my glycerin and KOH in the pot at room temperature and continually stirred on medium heat. I did heat it a bit past complete dissolution of the KOH because I was unsure if those tiny small bubbles you get after removing from heat at the bottom of the pan meant it wasn't fully dissolved.
> 
> 
> 
> And I did the 3% superfat in summerbee. I'm just so bumfuzzled with the LS... :sad:


 
OK... I'm glutton for punishment so I'm going to attempt yet again. I'm going to change a few things to see if it was something that I did...

I'm going to use straight olive oil in place of the blend. I am rerunning it through the Summerbee soap calc... 15.6oz. Olive oil; 6 oz. Coconut oil; 2.4 castor oil. I get 15.28 water and 5.09 KOH with a 3% superfat. So just to clarify.. I am going to use 15.28 oz of glycerin in place of the water... I read several Deeannas post about her trials of mixing water and Glycerin to do strictly as a cold process with no heat but as of right now I'm sticking with this tried and true recipe of heating the glycerin with KOH... I'm also going to heat it just to the point of no more KOH to make sure I didn't get the glycerin/KOH too hot. Any other thoughts/changes?

I'm sorry I'm bugging you all. Just want to get at least one batch... So I started my 4th batch with the above measurements. All was going well. One problem is at my shop we only use an electric plate as on my CP soap I'm not worried about bring my items to a boil. So on my griddle I was able to dissolve all of my KOH without any problem. So to keep from overheating I stopped at the point of all the flakes being dissolved. 

I started out adding to my crockpot this time off the heat as before and all seemed to go well. I saw translucency and it was changing colors. I was using my favorite stick blender (cheapy plastic... I know against advice)... And it melted it. So I quickly went back to my metal whisk and it was still OK. I pulled out our metal Kitchen Aid stick blender that I had used last night and it's just an odd blender that I don't like. It's like it spins so fast in the area you're in but it doesn't mix the entire batch up so I stopped using it and went back to whisking. At that point the entire mixture was opaque, back at the same consistency as last nights. Thin Peanut butter. I didn't get any floating bubbles this time. It's a lighter color than last nights... More of a tan color. 

Could it be this stupid stick blender causing me my issues? I should have just stuck with the whisk as suggested but when I saw the video that IrishLass had posted the lady there used what looks like a plastic SB.


----------



## IrishLass

Hi Glassfishy.  Don't be discouraged! I have to go run an errand right now, but I'll be back within an hour or so to help you out! 


IrishLass


----------



## IrishLass

I'm back! Glassfishy- good news.....methinks you may be overthinking things a bit, and possibly making much ado about nothing.....



glassfishy said:


> ATTEMPT #3. Later today I took my supplies home and attempted the Glycerin method. Here are my exact steps...
> 
> Measured: 24oz. TOTAL OILS
> 7.8 oz. Olive Oil 32.5%
> 7.8 oz Rice Bran Oil 32.5%
> 6 oz. Coconut Oil 25%
> 2.4 Castor Oil 10%
> 
> Measured:
> 15.14 oz Glycerin
> 5.05 oz. KOH
> 
> 1. In my soap pot I melted my oils on low temperature to get them all to a liquid state and clear


 
So far, so good...




glassfishy said:


> 2. in my newly bought KOH/Glycerin pot I melted on medium High heat until white KOH was melted.


 
So far, so good....




glassfishy said:


> 3. I poured my KOH/Glycerin mixture into my soap pot and stick blended for more 8-12 minutes. I started to get the TINY little bubbles floating in the air...


 
Excellent! Those tiny bubbles are a sign that all is going to plan and that you have saponification going on. Now, you could have actually stopped blending and fussing with it right then and there (I always stop at that point myself), covered it, and left it alone off the heat to come to the paste stage all in it's own time.



glassfishy said:


> BUT I never got any translucent stages.


 
That's okay- believe it or not, translucency is not an important factor.



glassfishy said:


> It basically stayed like amber thick pudding. It reminded me much of like when you make peanut brittle and it's a thick sugary liquid.


 
Still nothing to worry about- that's actually completely okay. 



glassfishy said:


> I finally tried to use a whisk just to see if I got different results and nada.


 
From my experience, that's completely normal and to be expected at that point. Still nothing to worry about. I'd have just stuck the lid back on and walked away for a few hours.




glassfishy said:


> 4. I then remembered that IrishLass said to put a lid on it and forget it.


 
Yes!!! 



glassfishy said:


> It's only been several hours but I just feel like it's completely wrong. I keep reading the posts and see where everyone says theirs turned translucent and had a beer head on it. My just looks like thick taffy peanut butter...


 
Don't go by looks or color ...... instead, go only by _feel_ (it should feel like thick, sticky, taffy or of a soft caramel-like consistency), then go by zap once it has reached that texture, in spite of whether it's translucent or opaque or dark or light or not, and then see if it will lather under running water. The looks/color/translucency, or whether or not you have a head of bubbles on top actually do not matter. What matters is the _texture_ and whether or not it's zappy, and if it lathers. Your description of "thick taffy peanut butter" sounds to me like things are right on track where they should be and that you actually have nothing to worry about. I myself have gotten an opaque/peanut butter taffy looking paste once, but it diluted clear as a bell and made lovely liquid soap. 

I hope you still have this paste and did not toss it out? (oh please, oh please, I hope Glassfishy did not throw it out!) If you still have it, pinch off a small blob of it and zap test it and also try and see if it lathers under running water. If there's no zap and it lathers, go ahead and dilute that baby. It's ready! 
,


> I'm sorry I'm bugging you all.


 
No need for apologies at all- it's all good, and we are all glad to be of help. 




glassfishy said:


> So I started my 4th batch........went back to whisking.......At that point the entire mixture was opaque, back at the same consistency as last nights. Thin Peanut butter. I didn't get any floating bubbles this time. It's a lighter color than last nights... More of a tan color.


 
Again- color/translucency does not matter- the only things that matter are the texture, its ability to lather, and whether it zaps or not. Just put a cover on it, leave it alone off heat, and walk away for a few hours or more. When it reaches a point where it feels like thick, sticky taffy or like a soft, sticky caramel, test for zap, and test a blob of it under running water to see if it lathers. If it lathers and there's no zap- you have the green light to dilute. 

Please keep us informed!


IrishLass


----------



## glassfishy

IrishLass...

Good news... Something deep down within told me to save the peanut butter taffy... So yes I have it still up at the shop. I figured someone would tell me how to save it or at worst use it to wash my car. It was a very thick amber colored paste... If I could cut them in little squares I could sell them as Bit O Honeys...

Also I have my 4th batch still in the crockpot with lid on so I'll attempt to zap and dilute tomorrow on both batches. 

A few questions... 

1. Do you think that I possibly cooked my KOH/Glycerin too long on the first batch or is that even possible. 

2. When I melt my KOH/Glycerin does it truly have to come to a boil or can I just make sure it's dissolved. 

3. Do you think that because I didn't get the tiny bubbles on my 4th batch today that it is still good or do I need to cook longer. I assume you're going to tell me to check the zap (which I will) but I didn't know if the bubbles were a necessity. On my 3rd batch last night I got the bubbles after only 8 or less minutes so I assumed it would do the same. It truly became translucent and acted exactly like the soap video you posted at the beginning of this thread. So I thought I was exactly on the right track. But then it went to peanut butter putty.

I know... Forget the color... 

4. can you recommend a good quality metal blender. i thought the Kitchen aid one would work better than it does but I love my simple cheap Sunbeam for my CP soap. I can pick one up for $20 and it lasts me forever and truly moves the soap. Unfortunately it melted my cheapie blender today...


----------



## IrishLass

glassfishy said:


> IrishLass...
> 
> Good news... Something deep down within told me to save the peanut butter taffy... So yes I have it still up at the shop. I figured someone would tell me how to save it or at worst use it to wash my car. It was a very thick amber colored paste... If I could cut them in little squares I could sell them as Bit O Honeys...


 
Sweet! I'm so happy to hear you did not throw it away! I am confident that once you have diluted it, you will be kicking yourself for ever thinking of tossing it! lol The texture you describe is exactly how it should be. 



glassfishy said:


> Also I have my 4th batch still in the crockpot with lid on so I'll attempt to zap and dilute tomorrow on both batches.


 
Excellent!




glassfishy said:


> A few questions...
> 
> 1. Do you think that I possibly cooked my KOH/Glycerin too long on the first batch or is that even possible.


 
It's possible, but I honestly don't know the answer to that. For what it's worth, when I dissolve mine on the stove, the glycerin/KOH is at good hot, rolling boil. I remove it from the heat periodically, though, to calm things down enough to see how much KOH is still un-dissolved, and then I put it back on the heat to boil/dissolve some more until all is dissolved. 



glassfishy said:


> 2. When I melt my KOH/Glycerin does it truly have to come to a boil or can I just make sure it's dissolved.


 
Yes- the glycerin needs to be boiling or else the KOH will have a very hard time dissolving in it indeed. Don't be afraid to take it off the heat periodically to calm the boil down and see how things look, though. Near the end when all is almost dissolved, I often take it off the heat again to smash the last bits against the side of my pot to help them along, and then place back on the burner for a few minutes more if it looks like I need to do so.




glassfishy said:


> . Do you think that because I didn't get the tiny bubbles on my 4th batch today that it is still good or do I need to cook longer. I assume you're going to tell me to check the zap (which I will) but I didn't know if the bubbles were a necessity.


 
Yes- go ahead and check for zap, and also check the lather under running water, but I have every confidence that it's perfectly good even if you did not get the flying bubbles in the initial stages. If your lye is good, things _will_ saponify, whether it be sooner or later, or flying bubbles or no. The flying bubbles are just an early, visible sign to us that saponification is occurring, and although they are very reassuring to us, their absence does not mean saponification is not taking place. In lieu of flying bubbles, you can be 100% absolutely sure that saponification has taken place the second you peek in your pot and see that you have thick, sticky taffy that you could cut up and sell as Bit 'o Honey bars.  



glassfishy said:


> On my 3rd batch last night I got the bubbles after only 8 or less minutes so I assumed it would do the same. It truly became translucent and acted exactly like the soap video you posted at the beginning of this thread. So I thought I was exactly on the right track. But then it went to peanut butter putty.
> 
> I know... Forget the color...


 
Now you're learning!  Peanut butter putty...thick, sticky taffy- that's exactly the texture you're shooting for, so do a happy dance! 



glassfishy said:


> 4. can you recommend a good quality metal blender. i thought the Kitchen aid one would work better than it does but I love my simple cheap Sunbeam for my CP soap. I can pick one up for $20 and it lasts me forever and truly moves the soap. Unfortunately it melted my cheapie blender today...


 
I'm in the same boat as you. I have the Kitchenaid stick-blender with the metal shaft, too, but I don't like it half as much as my cheapie Hamilton Beach SB with the plastic shaft. I feel the same way about the Kitchenaid SB as you do. I feel that it doesn't move things around as well as my cheapie SB. I also have a Cuisinart SB with a metal shaft that I bought as a back-up, but I haven't used it yet. Hopefully more will chime in on that.


HTH,
IrishLass


----------



## liquidsoaplady

I'm more into the 'natural', less chemical liquid soap making. I use a paste method, I have liquid soap in less than 5 hours, that is thick as molasses or honey, with no chemicals, except borax and citric acid and glycerin, some essential oils and a food based dye. 

I feel my process is quite fast, works beautifully, makes the most lathering and moisturizing soaps, and I can put any type of oil I desire into my formulations...........

We are all different, by the glycerine method seems so time consuming......

just my thoughts........

Thanks!


----------



## IrishLass

liquidsoaplady said:


> I'm more into the 'natural', less chemical liquid soap making. I use a paste method, I have liquid soap in less than 5 hours, that is thick as molasses or honey, with no chemicals, except borax and citric acid and glycerin, some essential oils and a food based dye.
> 
> I feel my process is quite fast, works beautifully, makes the most lathering and moisturizing soaps, and I can put any type of oil I desire into my formulations...........
> 
> We are all different, by the glycerine method seems so time consuming......
> 
> just my thoughts........
> 
> Thanks!


 
I hope I didn't give anyone the wrong idea. The glycerin method doesn't necessarily have to take too long, and it doesn't need a lot of 'hands-on' time.

For example, the olive oil formula that I make via the glycerin method can be made within 5 hours (or possibly even less) if I chose to cook it right to paste stage and dilute it right away, but I just choose to take my time with it. I simply just let it saponify on to the paste stage by itself while I go out and about and do other things, and then I come back to it later on in the day when I'm less busy. I love how it's very flexible that way and that I don't need to constantly babysit it if I have other pressing things that need my attention. I have it diluted and bottled that very same day by the time I go to bed, but without a whole lot of 'hands-on' time consumed at all. 


IrishLass


----------



## Susie

liquidsoaplady said:


> I'm more into the 'natural', less chemical liquid soap making. I use a paste method, I have liquid soap in less than 5 hours, that is thick as molasses or honey, with no chemicals, except borax and citric acid and glycerin, some essential oils and a food based dye.
> 
> I feel my process is quite fast, works beautifully, makes the most lathering and moisturizing soaps, and I can put any type of oil I desire into my formulations...........
> 
> We are all different, by the glycerine method seems so time consuming......
> 
> just my thoughts........
> 
> Thanks!



I've made liquid glycerin soap using a low superfat(not lye heavy) and half water to dissolve the KOH(to avoid cooking) in way less than 5 hours from start to bottled soap.  

How exactly is the "paste method" different from any other liquid soap making process?  We all get paste that is then diluted.

I don't understand why you say your way is more "natural" with all the borax.  Why do you make lye heavy soap that has to be neutralized?  Seems silly to me when we have perfectly good lye calculators now that can help you avoid that whole extra step.

I am also not sure why you think we don't make soap using other oils.  I do it all the time, depending on what kind of soap I am making, and who is getting it.

IrishLass is helping folks who want to make the liquid glycerin soap they saw in the video.  Lots of us started making liquid soap after watching that video.  However, that video and process are not perfect.  Lots of problems in there, hence this thread.  This is not claiming to be the only way to make liquid soap, just an easier way to make THAT soap.  You are free to make soap however you like.  You could even start your own thread with your method so folks can try it without having to hunt through other threads.  Just sayin'.


----------



## Cactuslily

I've been wanting to make LS, so thank you Irishlass (as always) for your detailed and helpful instructions. I personally don't wish to use borax. To each his own. Thanks glassfishy for posting, which resulted in such detailed responses sure to be helpful to many in the future.


----------



## boyago

I got my Welk on!





Thank you Irish!  I used this method with a modified recipe (was just going for dish soap this time around).  Used CO 65%, RBO 25%, and Castor 10%.  I wound up melting my base oils and sapping the paste in the crock pot and when it came time to dilute I just diluted in the pot with a little heat, spoon stirring and straight distilled water.  Dilluted 55% paste wight worth of water into the paste seemed to work well for me.  It's thinner than honey and about what you get at the store.
I'm curious though I haven't seen EO usage rates for EO's in LS anybody have any about X% and go do your homework advice?
Thanks again to IL and everybody who contributed to the thread, this was great.


----------



## Susie

I use the 0.5 oz EO PPO rate on SoapCalc for all soaps.  Not for all EO's, however, I use half that rate for irritating EOs such as cinnamon(cassia) and clove.  I tend to use my citrus EOs in liquid soap because they stick fine there, and I had a bunch I needed to use.  I happen to love the scent of citrus in dish and laundry soap, so that is a good thing.


----------



## ngian

So after a few weeks in use I have came across a symptom and was wondering if this is "natural" for a handmade liquid soap.

My normal pump soap is gathering little by little unused liquid soap that stays in open air and after a few hours/days it turns to a paste somehow. This is fencing the normal path of the soap, and it sometimes throwing the liquid out of the area where the hands are waiting to get cleaned.







Does this also happening to you? It's a bit annoying cause I have to clean the pump every few days...


----------



## Susie

Yep, perfectly normal.  It happens with foamers also.  I keep a special pair of tweezers handy in the bathroom to clean them out.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

When you don't notice one in there, it sends soap in a random direction. Adds an element of danger to hand washing


----------



## Susie

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> When you don't notice one in there, it sends soap in a random direction. Adds an element of danger to hand washing



I have had to change my shirt more times than I care to count because of this.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...Adds an element of danger to hand washing..."

As if playing around with lye and seizing soap isn't enough excitement, hey, Effy?

:grin:

Seriously, Nikos -- it's not desirable, but it's normal. Water evaporates from the soap at the tip of the nozzle, the soap thickens back into its "paste" form, and that small bit of soap paste creates a plug. 

The more you use the soap, the less of a plug will form. My LS pump at the kitchen sink gets used a lot, and I only have to use my finger or washcloth to wipe off the tip. 

If this is a big problem, you might want to put the LS in a container that has a flip-top cap or other kind of "plug proof" closure. If you think about it, most commercial liquid soaps and detergents have easy-to-use caps designed for the consumer to close to prevent those messy plugs -- it's not just handcrafted LS that has this problem.


----------



## IrishLass

Soap boogers! That's what I call them.  I get them on both my homemade and commercial soap nozzles. I get lotion boogers as well (from both handmade and commercial lotions). I treat them like I treat real boogers- just wipe them off with a tissue. 


IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna

Oh gosh, Irish Lass, I just wipe them boogers off with my fingers. 

:mrgreen:

Soap boogers, I mean. Soap. I mean ... okay, I'll be quiet now....


----------



## fuzz-juzz

Haha everyone! OP, it's, annoying but harmless. 
It will definitely form on pumps which are used less. 
I just blast it if with a bit of runny hot water.
It really will make soap go in surprising directions if not cleaned regularly. I had it in shirts, pants, hair, worst one on recently washed dishes.


----------



## lpstephy85

OMG, I finally did it!!! Way better than my first attempt several pages ago. It seemed touch and go at first when heating up the glycerin to dissolve the lye. I had to dump the first attempt of heating it up as it seemed to me the lye wasn't dissolving so I kicked up the temp but I think the glycerin started to burn. After the second attempt, everything fell in to place. So excited!


----------



## IrishLass

Yay!!!! Looks great!!!


IrishLass


----------



## Susie

Awesome!


----------



## TVivian

I've been wanting to try this method for a long time and finally did it this evening! I've only made LS one other time (with the cook forever and neutralize method) and had little desire to do it again until reading through this thread. I think it worked! The paste is still sitting in the pot, and I'll dilute tomorrow . Thank you to all who contributed to this thread! So much great info!! 

I was so excited to see the flying bubbles that I took a picture!


----------



## DeeAnna

"...the cook forever and neutralize method..."

TV -- this name is soooo spot on! I was reading one of the liquid soapers' groups on Facebook yesterday and one of the posters proudly explained she cooks her soap for a minimum of 7 hours to ensure it's fully saponified. I just about snorted my coffee out my nose when that sunk in to my foggy brain. Seven hours of hovering. Good grief. In the days before stick blenders, perhaps that was what had to be done, but nowadays it's overkill in the extreme.


----------



## Susie

It really does seem that they enjoy how difficult they can make that process, doesn't it?  I just don't get it.  I can have liquid soap in just a couple of hours with no wasted time or effort.  And the quality is just no different.


----------



## kumudini

When I first began soaping I've watched a bazillion videos and read a whole bunch of blogs, each one a min 3 times over. I came across liquid soap also, all I saw was the 'cook forever and neutralize' method. Since I didn't know there was IL's super easy and so awesome method, I didn't complain but thought I would try it sometime. And then about 4 months into my soaping, I googled forums and landed here. This thread was among the first ones I read, I read IL's posts explaining the whole process with amazement. Was awestruck by her love for sharing, all the effort she put into typing it in such detail(it kind of felt like me explaining my cooking recipes to my friends, only I grumble when they ask me to write it down for them, when I'm right there with them explaining everything).  In a way, IL is my first teacher on this forum. Yes, it took me a while to order KOH  and a big gallon of glycerine, even more time after that to actually make LS but when I did, it was so easy like I already knew. Thank you IL! I wouldn't do LS any other way, that is until IL herself recommends another possibly better method.


----------



## IrishLass

You are generously kind, Vkumudini, but I can take no other credit other than simply falling in love with such a quick and easy method that was taught me by those that came before, who themselves were generous to share the method, such as 3bees~1flower,  Lily2 and Silverdoctor over at the Dish. I am truly indebted to them. And also to Susie and DeAnna who have helped me to step out and try different things with the method, such as mixing the KOH with water first and then adding in the glycerin. It makes it even that much easier/quicker!  I'm nothing more than just an (overly) enthusiastic messenger. lol


IrishLass


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## TVivian

Alright.. So I had a little problem. Everything went well, diluted great, had a nice clear, honey like, bubbly soap. I didn't have PS80 on hand, but I have FO/EO modifier from WSP. I made a small test batch with the Modifier and some "velvet sugar" FO. Everything went well. Soap was still clear. So today I decided to scent the rest. I warmed it all up in my crock pot, mixed some Pink Grapefruit FO with the modifier, added it to the soap. Now my soap is super thick and gloppy. It is still clear but has a lumpy look to it. Do I now dilute it a bit more? Wait and see how it looks tomorrow? Not sure what went wrong. 

Here's a picture:


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## IrishLass

TVivian- for future reference, you actually don't have to warm up your diluted soap in order to add the FO. I always mix mine in at room temp. 

Depending on the fragrance, some FO's or EO's can do weird things to the diluted soap- some can make it thin, some can make it thick, some can make it cloudy, etc.. and some won't do anything at all except make your soap smell nice. Most of mine are in the latter category, but that could be because of the PS80, which I always add to my diluted soap with the FO. 

I've never used FO/EO modifier from WSP. What does it have in it? 


IrishLass


----------



## TVivian

IrishLass said:


> TVivian- for future reference, you actually don't have to warm up your diluted soap in order to add the FO. I always mix mine in at room temp.
> 
> Depending on the fragrance, some FO's or EO's can do weird things to the diluted soap- some can make it thin, some can make it thick, some can make it cloudy, etc.. and some won't do anything at all except make your soap smell nice. Most of mine are in the latter category, but that could be because of the PS80, which I always add to my diluted soap with the FO.
> 
> I've never used FO/EO modifier from WSP. What does it have in it?
> 
> 
> IrishLass




Oh ok good to know! I thought I read somewhere in this thread that it needed to be added to warm soap. 

The ingredient list says "fragrance" **shady** 

It really does work well so far for incorporating fO's into water based products so far and it has stayed clear every time. I'm wondering if the pink grapefruit is the issue?


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## Susie

I only add my EOs to warm diluted soap because I am too impatient to wait until it is cool.


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## IrishLass

I dilute 16 oz. of my paste at a time and store it in canning jars at room temp unscented until I need to re-fill one of my 4 oz. pump bottles. That way, I can scent with whatever I'm in the mood for at the time. 


TVivian- I had to do a little digging in the MSDS to find CAS #'s of things so that I could Google them, but it looks like 80% of WSP's modifier is made up of Polyethylene Glycol Trimethylnonyl Ether, i.e., "Tergitol", which is a non-ionic surfactant (the other 20% ingredients in it seem to be proprietary, though). http://www.crafters-choice.com/PDFs/ProductDocs/Crafter's-Choice-FO-and-EO-Modifier-MSDS.pdf  Maybe DeeAnna or some of the more chemically-minded can tell us more about it, since I am not familiar with it. I'm very curious what those other 20% of ingredients are. 

For what it is worth, PS-80 is also a non-ionic surfactant and emulsifier. 


IrishLass


----------



## TVivian

I probably should have scented just a little at a time. I made enough to fill 3-16oz glass pump bottles. One for each bathroom and the kitchen. They're only for me so I just scented it all with what I like. Won't make that mistake again  

I'm adding more water a little at a time and it seems to be smoothing out. Thank you for looking into the FO modifier ingredients. I'm going to put PS80 on my next order!


----------



## doriettefarm

I've never added a FO modifier or PS80 to my liquid soap but had a similar experience with one particular FO.  When I added this FO to my diluted soap paste it just turned into snotty jelly!  I ended up diluting it much further and using it in a foamer bottle.


----------



## soapysarah

I made my first liquid soap from soaping101's recipe, except that I substituted 50% glycerin for the water.  (I have been making cp soaps for a couple of years.)  It seems fine but isn't crystal clear, although it is 'cured'.  I had to cook it for much longer to get the paste clear.  It works really well and I am diluting and scenting in small batches.

Would diluting the liquid soap paste with coffee work; has anyone tried this?  I was just wondering as a cp coffee soap works fine, but then it is saponified in cp soap.


----------



## Susie

I would not dilute with coffee for a couple of reasons:

1.  Coffee can spoil, just like any other "non water" liquid.
2.  Coffee does have oils that can and will go rancid, not to mention coating the inside of your pump bottle and pump mechanism.

You can, however, use coffee to substitute for batch water (water that is mixed with the lye in the paste stage).  I think the resulting soap is ugly, but to each their own.


----------



## DeeAnna

I agree with Susie -- I would only use coffee to make the soap paste. Soap paste is the KOH equivalent of making regular NaOH bar soap, and we all pretty much know coffee in a bar soap is okay. 

Once you dilute the soap paste, that is a whole 'nother deal. You're going to be adding at least the same weight of dilution liquid to the paste, and often considerably more. That much coffee (or aloe or green tea or fruit juice or _____) adds a fair amount of "bug food" to the diluted soap and will reduce the naturally alkaline pH of the soap itself. These changes will make it less likely the diluted soap can prevent microbial growth. 

I personally don't think this is wise, but if you are determined to do it, then I would strongly recommend using a preservative that can tolerate the high pH of soap. One of the few preservatives that can do this is liquid Germall Plus.


----------



## sudsy_kiwi

I'll preface this by saying that I am yet to make my first LS (although my KOH just arrived, so I'm excited to take the plunge).
I understand what was said above about not using non-water, but what about coming at it from another direction and using infused oils?  For example, I have a big jar of coffee-infused OO that I use for lotions, along with several herb-infused OOs and RBOs...does anyone have any experience using something like this in LS?  I have used them in bar soaps before.

Also, I generally use a pyrex jug for melting my oils, and mixing my soaps.  From reading this thread, it seems that it's important to have a tight-fitting lid, but obviously that's not possible with pyrex.  Would covering it in cling film (saran wrap for the Americans among us :wave: ) work?  Or is the heat generated high enough to melt the wrap?  I figure I'll probably have to go buy a new (second hand lol) pot for LS, but I'm a bit impatient and want to start NOW lol.

TIA
Matt


----------



## Susie

1)  You are making a wash off product.  Using infused oils for anything other than color seems a waste to me.
2)  You are brand new at making liquid soap.  I would use the most economical oils and stuff possible.  
3)  Do NOT use Pyrex for anything other than weighing oils.  I would not even put it in the microwave to melt oils.  There is a picture on the forum somewhere of someone's Pyrex melted in their microwave with oils in it.  You should NEVER, EVER use Pyrex or glass to mix lye or soap batter in.


----------



## sudsy_kiwi

Susie said:


> 1)  You are making a wash off product.  Using infused oils for anything other than color seems a waste to me.
> 2)  You are brand new at making liquid soap.  I would use the most economical oils and stuff possible.
> 3)  Do NOT use Pyrex for anything other than weighing oils.  I would not even put it in the microwave to melt oils.  There is a picture on the forum somewhere of someone's Pyrex melted in their microwave with oils in it.  You should NEVER, EVER use Pyrex or glass to mix lye or soap batter in.



Thank you for the quick reply Susie 
Colour was the reason I was asking about using the infused oils, sorry I should have been more clear about that.  And don't worry, I won't be risking any of them on my first batch 

As for the pyrex...wow, I had no idea about that.  I'm sure when I first started soaping that I read/watched advice to use plastic, glass or pyrex...but maybe I was just following bad advice.  Luckily I've never had a problem so far.  I don't use the microwave, I always use a double boiler method.  And I never mix my lye in pyrex, that's always done in plastic.  I've been melting my oils in pyrex then adding lye solution to that before stickblending in the jug.  Guess I'd better go buy another pot, specifically for soaping.

Thanks again for your help :wave:
Matt


----------



## Susie

The easiest thing about liquid soap is coloring it.  You can use the colorants meant for MP that are available at local craft stores.  I am sure you can even use some of the food colors.  Just color small amounts of diluted soap with one drop at the time until you get the desired shade.  Remember that all colors will meld with the natural amber shade of the liquid soap.  So blue + amber = green.  Red + amber = orange.  To get a true blue or red, you have to add more colorant.

I also love that I can use my citrus EOs in liquid soap.  So I can use orange EO with a drop or two of red colorant and have a lovely orange soap for the foamer.  Or mint EO with a couple of drops of blue colorant yields a lovely green/mint soap.


----------



## DeeAnna

As far as a tight fitting lid -- maybe you're thinking liquid soap requires an exhausting stretch of cooking the paste over heat? If you check Irish Lass' procedure again you'll see she lets the saponifying soap paste do its thing off the heat, so there's not going to be a lot of evaporation going on. Just cover the pot with its lid -- or I suppose you could add a bit of plastic food wrap for insurance.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

As I understand it, the non-water is for the dilution, not for the paste - I think when making the paste, non-water should be okay. But someone please correct me if I am wrong. 

For after time, I would just go simple in generally - even with the better methods I was stood wondering what on earth was going on!


----------



## sudsy_kiwi

Thanks again for all your advice.  So, I went ahead and took the plunge...and, well, not quite the raging success I was hoping for.  I'm not sure what went wrong, but I have a couple of possible ideas...

I used Soapcalc, with the 90% KOH box ticked, as that was what my supplier claims is the purity of my KOH.  65% OO, 25% CO, 10% Castor...3% SF, 3:1 Water:Lye.  I only wanted to make a small batch since it was my first try, so I used 100g total oils.  Soapcalc gave me 22.18g KOH and 66.53g Water.  I cross-checked the numbers with SBM advanced and they gave numbers that were close to these.  I used 22.1g each of HOH and water, and 44.4g glycerin. 

KOH dissolved totally in the water within a few seconds. I then added that solution to the glycerin, which quickly went from thick and clear to a greenish-yellow, then a rich amber colour.  I added that to my warm oils (150F) and began "stabmixing" (thanks TEG).  

Here's where things started to go awry.  The batter quickly went to a dark caramel colour butit didn't thicken.  At all. I was watching the clock, waiting for all the magical changes I'd read about, but nothing.  After about 20 minutes of blending and stirring, the temp had dropped to about 100F and still no thickening.  I stuck it back on the double boiler and got it back up to about 140F, and continued blending the bejesus out of it.  After an hour, it had reached basically a medium trace, looking kinda like a thick dark gravy.

At this point I gave up, covered it in cling wrap and hid it in the airing cupboard...basically took the "outta sight, outta mind" approach.  I checked it an hour later and it had thickened a little, wasn't runny, but still very soft.  And it zapped.  Checked again at 5hrs, doesn't appear to have any physical change, and it still zaps.  Although it took a couple of licks before I got zapped...wishful thinking, or progress?

So now, I'm gonna leave it a bit longer, check back in the morning, and see if anything's changed.

My thoughts on possible causes... I was using a glycerin that I've never used before.  A supermarket brand that I'd intended to use in other products.  I believe glycerin is glycerin, but this also contains a preservative, so I'm wondering if this could have caused the problems I had.

Alternatively, I read a few comments in another thread which suggest that a small batch can be problematic.  Should I have gone bigger?


----------



## Susie

How warm was your KOH/water/glycerin when you added it to the warm oils?  KOH soap takes a while to come to trace (30 min sometimes) if you are not soaping hot enough.  The glycerin should have helped speed trace.  I doubt the preservative had any effect.  

The good news is that it should be soap by morning if you at least got it emulsified.  Liquid soap is forgiving that way.

I would try a larger batch next time.  I use at least 500 gm of oil per batch.  It just takes that much to keep the head of my SB immersed.


----------



## tbeck3579

IrishLass said:


> At the request of Susie and DeeAnna, here is more detailed info on how I make my glycerin liquid soap. I hope you're seated comfortably! lol
> 
> IrishLass



Awesome video!  Thanks so much for taking the time to teach.  I have no idea how you held the camera and made soap at the same time -- multi-talented :clap:.  When I was selling on ebay I had to take a lot of still pictures and couldn't hold the camera as still as you did.  I ended up buying a cheap tripod at an auction.  Great job with the text and the editing!


----------



## DeeAnna

What Susie said. Small batches like yours have a lot of surface area to volume, so the saponification reaction is not as efficient at keeping the soap batter warm enough. Next time, yeah ... a bit larger batch might be less troublesome for you.

That said, your instinct to add some heat was good ... and as Susie said, you can also apply a dab of patience mixed with a large dose of benign neglect. The batter, once emulsified, is still saponifying even at 100 degrees, just more slowly. 

Also if your fats were mostly liquid oils (lots of oleic and linoleic acids), the batter can take awhile to come to trace and thicken up. If you used a mix of fats including some solid fats (more myristic, lauric, palmitic, and/or stearic acids) such as Irish Lass' recipe with coconut oil, the batter should come to trace a little faster.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I royally messed up my first attempts (look good until I prodded the paste and found the liquid underneath it!) so I ended up heating the oven up and leaving it in there over night - make your soap in Stainless Steel, just in case!  

Next time I hope to actually get it to work first time, but I will be amazed if I can.


----------



## IrishLass

tbeck3579 said:


> Awesome video! Thanks so much for taking the time to teach. I have no idea how you held the camera and made soap at the same time -- multi-talented :clap:. When I was selling on ebay I had to take a lot of still pictures and couldn't hold the camera as still as you did. I ended up buying a cheap tripod at an auction. Great job with the text and the editing!


 

Using the best Robert De Niro voice from Taxi Driver that this lass is able to muster...ahem (clearing throat), 'Are you talking to me?"  If so, then I'm going to have to bring out my best impersonation of a teenager trying to defend herself when caught with seemingly incriminating, but completely coincidental evidence.... (ahem) 'You got the wrong person! I know how it looks, but I swear, it wasn't me!' lol

Seriously, though, I truly had nothing to do with the video (as explained in post #8 ). That was/is Carrie Peterson's video (she's 3bees~1flower on the Dish forum). The 65% OO/25% CO/10% Castor glycerin recipe is also Carrie's recipe. 

Trust me, I'm fairly certain that you don't ever want to see me try to video myself while making soap. lol I've never attempted it, mind you, but just based on the difficult enough time I have trying taking still pictures at intervals while soaping, it's enough to put me off the whole video idea. If I had a camera man or woman, maybe I'd think about it, but I don't know how easy it would be to find one willing to work so late at night (many of my soapy sessions take place when everyone is fast asleep). lol




			
				The Efficacious Gentleman said:
			
		

> I royally messed up my first attempts (look good until I prodded the paste and found the liquid underneath it!) so I ended up heating the oven up and leaving it in there over night - make your soap in Stainless Steel, just in case!
> 
> Next time I hope to actually get it to work first time, but I will be amazed if I can.


 
If I can do it, I have every confidence that you can do it, too, Gent (and that goes for everyone else as well!).  The method- using the steps I've described in this thread- continues to be quite forgiving and fool-proof for me.


IrishLass


----------



## sudsy_kiwi

Susie said:


> How warm was your KOH/water/glycerin when you added it to the warm oils?  KOH soap takes a while to come to trace (30 min sometimes) if you are not soaping hot enough.  The glycerin should have helped speed trace.  I doubt the preservative had any effect.
> 
> The good news is that it should be soap by morning if you at least got it emulsified.  Liquid soap is forgiving that way.
> 
> I would try a larger batch next time.  I use at least 500 gm of oil per batch.  It just takes that much to keep the head of my SB immersed.



Silly me, I didn't take the temp of the KOH solution.  I don't know why, since I'd just done the oil temp...I'm putting it down to a blonde moment lol.  As soon as the KOH was dissolved, I added it to the glycerin, stirred for about 2 minutes til it was all mixed, then added to the oils.

Unfortunately, it is now morning (a little over 20 hours since I stopped) and still no soap.  The batter is definitely thicker than last night, although still stirrable, and it still zaps.  Side note: I've never been zapped before this, and I'm wondering...are there degrees of zap?  The first test of this soap batter, the zap was instantaneous and very sharp, but this morning, it took a few licks before I got what I thought was a milder zap.  It seems to me that it's probably just wishful thinking, or does the zap get less intense the further along the process goes?



> What Susie said. Small batches like yours have a lot of surface area to  volume, so the saponification reaction is not as efficient at keeping  the soap batter warm enough. Next time, yeah ... a bit larger batch  might be less troublesome for you.
> 
> That said, your instinct to add some heat was good ... and as Susie  said, you can also apply a dab of patience mixed with a large dose of  benign neglect. The batter, once emulsified, is still saponifying even  at 100 degrees, just more slowly.
> 
> Also if your fats were mostly liquid oils (lots of oleic and linoleic  acids), the batter can take awhile to come to trace and thicken up. If  you used a mix of fats including some solid fats (more myristic, lauric,  palmitic, and/or stearic acids) such as Irish Lass' recipe with coconut  oil, the batter should come to trace a little faster.



I was using Irish Lass' recipe, so 25% Coconut Oil.  Thanks for confirming my suspicion about the small batch, I poured it into the narrowest jug I had in an effort to cover the SB head, and it only just managed to.  I hate wasting supplies, so always start out with a small batch, but in this case it looks to have backfired.  Win some, lose some :roll:

I'm going with your "benign neglect" technique lol.  It's hidden away in the cupboard again, and I'll check it in another 24hrs.  This has now become my long-term experiment...I'm just gonna let it sit, and see what happens.  Hopefully, soap happens.  Eventually.

Thank you all again for your help.  You are what makes this forum such a great place.

Cheers,
Matt


----------



## Susie

Yeah, trust me, if I can do it, anyone can.  I have had every conceivable issue with liquid soap in paste making, and the wonderful thing is that if you get it to emulsification, it can be soap sooner or later.  You may have to add a bit of heat if you literally have to abandon it to rush someone to the hospital before emulsification, but a bit of heat and stirring after you get back, and you still get soap.  I know this for sure.


----------



## Susie

sudsy_kiwi said:


> Silly me, I didn't take the temp of the KOH solution. ...  Side note: I've never been zapped before this, and I'm wondering...are there degrees of zap?  The first test of this soap batter, the zap was instantaneous and very sharp, but this morning, it took a few licks before I got what I thought was a milder zap.



I just needed to know if it was hot, warm, or cool, nothing specific.

If you had to lick several times, you do not have zap.  Zap is that instantaneous sharp sensation.  Not really a taste.  If you wonder exactly what it feels like, place both the positive and negative parts of a 9V battery to your tongue.  That is exactly what it feels like.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...I've never been zapped before this, and I'm wondering...are there degrees of zap? The first test of this soap batter, the zap was instantaneous and very sharp, but this morning, it took a few licks before I got what I thought was a milder zap...."

In the interests of science :crazy: I have gingerly but intentionally zap tested a very "hot" soap batter. Even the tiny almost invisible smear of batter on my fingertip gave me a most memorable super strong zap. The sensation is immediate and unpleasant, and I'm glad I had a glass of cold water to rinse my mouth (spit, don't swallow!) I don't recommend this unless you're a nerdy fool like me.

I have also tested all kinds of slightly to just barely zappy soaps. Even a mild zap leaves no doubt I've been zapped, although the sensation is milder -- more like a tiny to moderate static shock on a dry winter day. Based on my perception that even tiny zaps are so definite and clear, I have to say if you weren't sure you were really getting zapped, the soap most likely wasn't zappy. 

That said, some parts of a soap can be zappy while other sections are fine -- maybe that is what you are trying to describe?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I also find that KOH soaps give really bad zaps. Maybe it's because I test too soon (I'm also impatient) when I made LS and when I make shaving soap, but KOH kicks like a mule


----------



## DeeAnna

Oh, it's nice to know I'm not the only nerdy fool! :mrgreen:


----------



## sudsy_kiwi

I'm happy to report that batch #3 appears to be a success :-D
I'll get to that in a moment...

My initial batch is still a mystery.  4 days later, and it's still a very dark, thick but stirrable moosh.  It has a "bitter, tangy" kinda smell to it.  But, it doesn't zap.  It also doesn't lather when I use some to scrub my hands under running water.

My second batch, I used the same recipe, but increased it to 500g oil weight.  I also added the glycerin to the oils, rather than mixing it with the lye solution ( to try to keep the lye from cooling too much before mixing).  WOW...talk about a reaction lol.  It foamed and bubbled like all hell was breaking loose (I dubbed it Beelzebubbles).  Once that had calmed down a bit, it basically went the same was as the first batch.  And now, 3 days on, it looks and smells just like batch number one, it also doesn't zap, but there is some small amount of bubbles if I get a decent goop of it on my hands and scrub under running water.  Not exactly inspirational.

So, not to be deterred, yesterday I weighed out the last dregs of my "good" (ie not supermarket-brand) glycerin, and found that I had just enough to allow for a 250g-oil batch, using the same recipe.  Went through the drill, and could tell straight away that this was going to be different.  The oils stayed a nice olivey colour as I began stabmixing, which gave me hope.  After a few minutes, the temp began rising.  I could see the batter thickening slightly.  And lo, after about 20 minutes, I had a nice thick paste :-D  I didn't get flying bubbles, which I was really hoping for, after reading about them lol.  And it doesn't seem to be the translucent amber that I've seen on this thread...it's more like a creamy latte colour.  See the pic below (Next to it is batch number 2, for comparison)

Half an hour after I stopped mixing (I assumed I had mixed enough when the mixer head glugged up) I couldn't wait any longer and gave the paste a loving lick...no zap (picture Numfar doing the dance of joy, for any Whedon fans out there).  I left it a few hours longer, then before going to bed, I measured out 100g of paste, added 75g water, gave it a wee stir and covered.  By this morning about half the paste had dissolved, and I've given it a few more gentle stirs during the day.  I've just added another 5g water and smooshed away some lumps, I figure I'll leave it a few more hours and hopefully it'll be ready to bottle.  

It still has a creamy appearance, in contrast to the clear amber y'all seem to get.  Once it's bottled, I'll get another picture up.  Oh yeah, and it lathers up quite nicely.

So, it would seem that the problem lay with the supermarket brand glycerin.  Either lye doesn't like the preservative they used, or there are other additives in there that the manufacturers aren't telling us about.  So it's time to order more "good" glycerin, and then it's full steam ahead on the GLS express :-Dhttp://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## DeeAnna

Kudos to you for pinpointing the source of the problem!!! I have to say your picture of the gloppy "chocolate pudding" soap next to the pale "good" soap -- the difference is shocking. Wowser. No wonder you were wondering what had happened!


----------



## IrishLass

Wow, what a difference! I wonder what on earth they put in that there supermarket-bought glycerin?! Yikes! I'm so glad you had some of the good stuff left to be able to compare to how things are supposed to turn out.  

The 'vanilla pudding' looks just like how mine turns out when I dissolve the KOH with water before adding the glycerin. Looks like you're heading in the right direction now. 


IrishLass


----------



## sudsy_kiwi

IrishLass said:


> Wow, what a difference! I wonder what on earth they put in that there supermarket-bought glycerin?! Yikes! I'm so glad you had some of the good stuff left to be able to compare to how things are supposed to turn out.
> 
> The 'vanilla pudding' looks just like how mine turns out when I dissolve the KOH with water before adding the glycerin. Looks like you're heading in the right direction now.



I know, right?!?!!  And this stuff was in the baking aisle...they expect us to eat it!! :sick:
I had been holding onto the good stuff for a batch of lotions I was going to make, but I just knew I had to test my theory.  I've already ordered more so I can carry on having this fun 

I'm glad mine matches up with how yours looks, that really does give me confidence.

I've now bottled it and taken it into the shower, and it lathered up beuatifully, did a great job of cleaning me, and smells divine (although I can't take credit for that lol, I just love my Lemongrass FO).  It _is_ somewhat drying, but after many batches of bar soap, and buying other CP soaps, I've come to the conclusion that it's just my skin type.

It is still a bit thick; I was worried I might have over-diluted it when it was in the bowl, but in the bottle it really didn't want to come up the pump spout.  It would be fine in a squeezy bottle, but I prefer the pump bottles.  

So, thank you again for your help and inspiration :-D
http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## soapysarah

Thank you for all your feedback with regards to coffee.  I just like playing around with things just for home use.  I did experiment with a very small amount of paste and diluted it with some left-over real coffee - it smells wonderful and seems to lather well.  I understand about it going off so won't bother with it again, although it gets rid of smells on hands really well.

I have been using a glass bowl for my lye in cp soap for a couple of years now.  I certainly did not know that it was not the right thing to use.


----------



## couch0

IrishLass said:


> Okay- to continue.......
> 
> To dilute, I use Carrie's canning jar method. It's easy and it prevents evaporation as your're diluting:
> 
> A) I heat up some water to simmering in a large soup pot (enough water to come up the sides of my canning jar without making the jar float). Also- I stick a round cake cooling rack in the bottom of the pot so that my canning jar won't be in direct contact with the pot's bottom.
> 
> B) While the pot of water is coming to a simmer, I weigh out my paste (dried foamy head and all) into an appropriate-sized canning jar, i.e., one that will accomodate my paste and dilution liquid with enough room to spare for stickblending purposes, and set aside.
> 
> C) I weigh out my dilution water and my sodium lactate and add them together into a separate pot (using the dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 parts water, and 3% sodium lactate as per weight of my paste). I bring this mixture to a boil then immediately pour it over my waiting paste in my canning jar.
> 
> D) Then I cover the the jar tightly with its matching lid, give it a shake, then place the jar into the large soup pot of simmering water to warm and soften things up.
> 
> E) After about 15-20 minutes or so I take the jar out, wipe the water/condensation off the jar, then I open it so I can stick a clean knife inside to stir things around and test how soft the paste has become. If it's as soft as jam/jelly, I hit it with my stickblender for a minute or so of on and off pulsing until there are no more lumps, but if the paste is not soft enough to my liking yet, I'll just cover it back up and let it sit in the simmering water about 10 minutes more and check again before deciding to stickblend or not.
> 
> I need to mention that when I hit it with the stickblender, the contents turn an opaque milky white color. This is normal and only temporary.
> 
> F) Once it has been stickblended, I squeegee off as much soap as I can from the stickblender back into the jar, cover with the lid, and stick the jar back into the pot of hot water (off the burner this time). If all goes as planned, the soap will clarify over the next few hours from the bottom up and turn into clear liquid soap with a foamy head on the surface.
> 
> G) Re: the foam: The foam eventually dissipates if I let it sit long enough (the warmth of the water helps greatly with this), but sometimes when I get impatient I'll spritz the foam with a spray or 2 of alcohol periodically to help the foam to dissipate in a more timely fashion. I try not to over-do the alcohol,though, because I don't want it to thin my soap out. I've read of people just skimming the foam off, but because I hate waste, I like to let it sit and dissipate to become part of the main body of soap.
> 
> H) When the soap is foam-free enough to my liking, I partition off as much as I would like to scent and bottle at that time, and I store the rest in the canning jar at room temp for later use.
> 
> I) When I add scent, I make sure to also add an equal amount of PS80 as per the amount of scent so that the scent will not separate out of my soap. I mix the scent with the PS80 and then stir the mixture into the soap. If it looks like the soap is clouding up from the scent at all, I'll just add more PS 80 drop by drop until all is clear again. Thankfully, that doesn't happen but once in a blue moon.
> 
> The finished soap is quite lovely, thick, and crystal clear:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.aislinnscorner.com:8080/images/IMG_1002CroppedClearIndoorsUnscentedGLSLarge.JPG
> 
> Here is a shot of it outside held up to the sky:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.aislinnscorner.com:8080/images/IMG_1007CroppedClearUnscentedGLSLarge.JPG
> 
> 
> My suds:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.aislinnscorner.com:8080/images/IMG_1028CroppedWhiitePeachSudsLarge.JPG
> 
> IrishLass


Irish Lass thank you so much


----------



## konglishkiller

Wicked! 
Easy peasy. Got flying bubbles and paste in an hour or so. 

This is just a fantastic technique. Thank you for this thread.

My soap is nice and clear....but a little drying. Looking over my recipe I realised I entered fractionated coconut oil not 76 into soapcalc. Can I do anything to save it or is it destined to be only dish soap?


----------



## DeeAnna

"...My soap is nice and clear....but a little drying. Looking over my recipe I realised I entered fractionated coconut oil not 76 into soapcalc. Can I do anything to save it or is it destined to be only dish soap? ..."

I'm assuming you made Irish Lass' recipe from earlier in this thread that is based on a 3% superfat? In which case, the "drying" probably is because the soap is lye heavy. If you want to correct this, you would need to figure the recipe with the correct fats, compare that recipe to the "wrong" one based on FCO, and figure out how much additional fat would be needed to react with the excess lye.


----------



## Mandymaz

Hiya folks,
after reading, most of, this thread and having my first go at making liquid soap, I am pleased to say that liquid soap is easy-peasy to make. Here's a photo of my first batch. 





I also used Chickens In The Road blog post about liquid soap making as guidance.
I used ½ & ½ water & glycerine to dissolve the lye, as Susie suggested, and because I only had a 235g of glycerine . The bottle pictured was diluted as Irish Lass has in her tutorial.

sorry about the huge pic, i'm not sure how to resize it.


----------



## Susie

The big picture is fine.  It lets me see that gorgeous soap in all it's glory! Congratulations!


----------



## IrishLass

Congratulations Mandymaz-  very lovely soap! Prepare to be addicted now. lol


IrishLass


----------



## kchaystack

asim said:


> I have used 2 litres of water and 8oz bar pears and grand them but after  one day  my liquid soap is no more bubbly or foaming
> Plz help me



Are you trying grate bar soap to make a liquid soap?  

If that is what you are doing, it won't work.  Several people on this forum have tried it and none have worked.  

Sorry.


----------



## IrishLass

asim said:


> I have used 2 litres of water and 8oz bar pears and grand them but after one day my liquid soap is no more bubbly or foaming
> Plz help me


 

Like Kchaystack said, the method of mixing grated bar-type soap into water will not work, unfortunately. The end-product is quite inferior, as you just experienced.

It's so much better to start from scratch with KOH and oils, such as the kind of liquid soap that is being discussed in this particular thread.


IrishLass


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

You can check out the first page of this thread.  Or http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852


----------



## nikkisessence

*Thank you all!*

Great thread, great responses! After reading through, I have a great liquid soap. Thanks again!!


----------



## dingi

IrishLass said:


> At the request of Susie and DeeAnna, here is more detailed info on how I make my glycerin liquid soap. I hope you're seated comfortably! lol
> 
> First, the formula. I have 2 favorite glycerin liquid soap formulas (GLS for short) that I regularly make, and the one I will be sharing is actually the very first liquid soap formula I ever tried making in my soaping life- 3bees~1flower's (Carrie Peterson's) Olive Oil GLS formula that she posted over on the Dish forum and that she also shares on her GLS tute on the YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6brP--yQpU
> 
> It's very easy to make and it results in the most gorgeous, clear-as-a-bell liquid soap with wonderful, bubbly lather. And by using a dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 (or 75%) water, it dilutes out to a sumptuous consistancy that's beautifully thick and honey-like, but not too thick to clog my pump bottle.
> 
> Anyway, here is 3bees~1flower's (Carrie's) formula that she posted on the Dish and also on her YouTube video in the link above:
> 
> -65% Olive Oil
> -25% Coconut Oil
> -10% Castor Oil
> -Superfatted @ 3% up front using SummerbeeMeadow's Advanced Liquid Soap Calculator: https://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps
> 
> As I mentioned previously, I dilute it at a rate of 1 part paste to .75 (or 75%) water [multiply your paste weight by .75 or 75% to get the water amount].
> 
> This next ingredient is optional, but to my dilution water I also like to add 3% sodium lactate (in liquid form) as per the weight of my paste. The SL is my little miracle worker that helps the paste soften/break up easier and more quickly [paste weight X 3%]. In spite of it being a liquid, I don't figure the sodium lactate into my 75% water calculation- I just calculate it as an additive apart from the water amount. In case you're wondering, I've found that with or without the sodium lactate, the finished soap still comes out to a nice, thick consistency, but without it, the dilution definitely doesn't proceed as quickly/easlily.
> 
> My procedure in order:
> 
> 1) I melt my oils in my designated soaping pot and set aside.
> 
> 2) In a separate, stainless pot that's roomy enough to prevent any accidental boil-over, I add my room-temperature glycerin and KOH together. Yep- that's right- both are at room temp when first combined. I got that important tip from tarafotty over at the Dish. There's no need to heat the glycerin first. Tarafotty said it's actually safer if you don't heat the glycerin first because adding KOH to hot glycerin causes sizzling and splashing, etc... so I just add the 2 at room temp and then heat from there, and it always goes well for me.
> 
> 3) I turn on my stove's exhaust fan, then I turn my burner to med-high to bring the glycerin/Koh to a boil, stirring all the while with a stainless spoon.
> 
> ~Make sure you follow the safety protocols that you normally follow when mixing lye solution- wear goggles and gloves, and don't breathe in the fumes! With one hand, I cover over my nose and mouth with a thick cotton diaper (clean, of course),folded over onto itself 3 times to provide a thick barrier against the fumes, and with the other hand I stir.~
> 
> The goal is to heat the glycerin to boiling so that the KOH will dissolve quickly and completely. If at any point you find the glycerin/KOH mixture to be boiling up too high and threatetening to spill over the pot, just remove the pot from the heat until it mellows out a bit, and then place the pot back on heat and continue boiling/dissolving/stirring in this manner, until all is dissolved/clear.
> 
> You'll notice as it heats/boils that the glycerin/KOH mixture will go through different stages: First, it starts to turn a bit white, then really white and bubbly/cloudy, and then it gradually gets clearer and clearer until all is dissolved and the solution is crystal clear. Near the end, you'll periodically need to take the pot off the heat and stir the boiling solution down to be able to gauge how far things are progressing along.
> 
> If near the end you find you have a few stubborn bits of KOH that are taking their sweet time to dissolve, just smash them up against the side of the pot with the back of your spoon to help them break up/dissolve faster, then continue boiling and stirring until all is crystal clear.
> 
> It normally takes between 8 to 10 minutes tops for all my KOH to dissolve.
> 
> 4) Once all is dissolved/clear it's time to pour the hot KOH/glycerin solution into the waiting melted oils in my soaping pot. I use a rubber spatula to scrape/squeegee every drop of the glycerin/KOH solution out into the oils. By the way, my soaping pot is off the heat when I do this (and from here on out as well- things are hot enough as it is!).
> 
> 5) Once all the solution is in, I start whisking with a stainless whisk. Some people use a stickblender for this part and that's perfectly fine (you'll get to the paste stage much quicker with a stickblender), but please don't do it if your stickblender has a plastic wand/shaft. The glycerin/KOH/oil mixture is so hot that it may melt your plastic stickblender. If you have a stainless stickblender, though, feel free to use that. Otherwise, you can do as I do and use a stainless whisk. A whisk is actually all I've ever used for this step and it works perfectly fine.
> 
> As I whisk (off-heat), my batter will look opaque at times, and then clear golden amber with lots of bubbles on top, etc... All of these changes are normal, and I just keep on whisking away until the moment I start to see tiny little bubbles flying/floating _up in the air _over the pot or around my head. Some people call this the 'Flying Bubble Stage', but I kinda like calling it the "Laurence Welk Stage" lol. It normally takes all of 10 minutes from the time I start whisking until I see the flying bubbles. When I see them, I stop whisking, even if my soap in the pot is still liquid, which it usually is (still liquid), and with a nice foamy head on it like beer, to boot. In spite of the foamy head and the fact that it's not paste yet, it's all good and there's absolutely nothing to be concerned about. As long as I have the flying bubbles, all is well and on its way, and I can proceed to the next step....
> 
> 6) ....which is when I cover my pot and leave it alone -still off the heat- to do its thing and become paste. If you used a stickblender, it will become paste very quickly indeed- as little as an hour or so- but with the whisk method, it normally takes between 4 to 6 hours for mine to become paste. So.... I either go out or I just busy myself with other things during this time. Or if it's bedtime, I'll just leave it to set up overnight and check on it in the morning, or later in the afternoon, or even later in the week if I have other things to do. As long as it's tightly covered, there's no need to worry myself about it or feel rushed. That's one of the beauties with this method- you can be lazy with it, and you don't need to cook it to the paste or neutral stage if you don't feel like it. Just let it rest on your counter for 4 to 6 hours or however long and it will become neutral paste all on its own. At least that's been my experience.
> 
> 7) Because of the bubbly head that's normally resting on the top of my batter, it's pretty hard to tell if I have paste yet just by peeking into the pot and looking, so I scoop into it with a spoon to see what's what. I know I've reached the paste stage if it feels like I'm scooping into thick, sticky taffy, only the color is a beautiful translucent golden color with somewhat dried bubbles still on top.
> 
> 8 ) When it's paste, I spoon out little globs of it from a couple of different areas of the pot and apply the tongue test to check for zap. Some people use pheno drops, but I'm kinda partial to the tongue test. It's accurate, instantaneous, easy, and best of all I don't have to shell out any money for it. lol If it doesn't zap, I proceed to the next step- dilution. So far, I've never had a GLS batch zap on me yet, but if i did, I'd just let it sit for ahile longer and test again.
> 
> I will have to write my diluting procedure in the next post (below) since I've exceeded my word limit for this post.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Hi IrishLass
I am new to liquid soap making. Only after reading your glycerin method of making  liquid soap, I got confidence to start. Please help me with couple of doubts:
1. You have mentioned that pre-melted oil. At what temperature the oil must be heated. Is it have to be boiled? When mixing the Lye solution with oil, is there any temperature level of oil we have to check?
2. As you do, can a beginner use stainless steel Whisk instead of hand/immersion blender (because I don't have blender). How fast one has to stir / whisk manually to get the saponification process successful? 
3. For boiling glycerin and KOH to get it dissolves, can we use Gas Stove or Electric Induction stove ? (because I don't have Crock Pot)
4. Please confirm if there is absolutely no need to cook the paste using crock pot / slow cooker  and just leave it covered for few to several hours. ( I am asking this doubt as some say that it has to be on low heat setting in crock pot and whisk every 30 minutes for 4 to 8 hours).
Sorry to put so many questions. I am new  and hence needed to get it well in my mind before I start doing the liquid soap which is clear liquid soap and not opaque. Thanks.


----------



## Susie

dingi said:


> Hi IrishLass
> I am new to liquid soap making. Only after reading your glycerin method of making  liquid soap, I got confidence to start. Please help me with couple of doubts:
> 1. You have mentioned that pre-melted oil. At what temperature the oil must be heated. Is it have to be boiled? When mixing the Lye solution with oil, is there any temperature level of oil we have to check?
> 2. As you do, can a beginner use stainless steel Whisk instead of hand/immersion blender (because I don't have blender). How fast one has to stir / whisk manually to get the saponification process successful?
> 3. For boiling glycerin and KOH to get it dissolves, can we use Gas Stove or Electric Induction stove ? (because I don't have Crock Pot)
> 4. Please confirm if there is absolutely no need to cook the paste using crock pot / slow cooker  and just leave it covered for few to several hours. ( I am asking this doubt as some say that it has to be on low heat setting in crock pot and whisk every 30 minutes for 4 to 8 hours).
> Sorry to put so many questions. I am new  and hence needed to get it well in my mind before I start doing the liquid soap which is clear liquid soap and not opaque. Thanks.



I'm not IrishLass, but I can answer these until she gets here.

1.  Melt oil on anything that creates heat.  You just need melted oils, it does not matter how it gets there.  No need to boil, just melt.

2.  You don't have to have a stick blender, a whisk does fine.  The heat helps speed saponification.  Whisk as fast as you can without wearing yourself out in about 5 minutes of whisking.

3.  Again, use whatever you typically cook on.  You just need heat.

4.  No need to use a crock pot.  Once you see flying bubbles or reach paste stage, you remove from heat, cover, and walk away.  Those people who obsess about cooking liquid soap for hours are just making life difficult for themselves.  I have no idea why they do that.


----------



## Misschief

dingi said:


> Hi IrishLass
> I am new to liquid soap making. Only after reading your glycerin method of making  liquid soap, I got confidence to start. Please help me with couple of doubts:
> 1. You have mentioned that pre-melted oil. At what temperature the oil must be heated. Is it have to be boiled? When mixing the Lye solution with oil, is there any temperature level of oil we have to check?
> 2. As you do, can a beginner use stainless steel Whisk instead of hand/immersion blender (because I don't have blender). How fast one has to stir / whisk manually to get the saponification process successful?
> 3. For boiling glycerin and KOH to get it dissolves, can we use Gas Stove or Electric Induction stove ? (because I don't have Crock Pot)
> 4. Please confirm if there is absolutely no need to cook the paste using crock pot / slow cooker  and just leave it covered for few to several hours. ( I am asking this doubt as some say that it has to be on low heat setting in crock pot and whisk every 30 minutes for 4 to 8 hours).
> Sorry to put so many questions. I am new  and hence needed to get it well in my mind before I start doing the liquid soap which is clear liquid soap and not opaque. Thanks.



I know others will chime in but I just wanted to say that once you try this method, you will love it. Everyone makes it harder than it really is. I've only made a couple of batches but I can tell you this:

1. I heated my oils until the coconut oil was melted. You don't need to boil your oils.
2. I only used a whisk and I got to the "flying bubble" stage in minutes. You don't need to beat it as you would with egg whites or whipped cream.
3. Yes, use your stove for boiling the glycerin and KOH. I don't use my crock pot for soap making.... at least, I haven't yet.
4. No need to cook. Once it reaches the flying bubble stage, cover it and walk away. Seriously. Just walk away. It will do what it needs to do all on its own.

And, hey, ask all the questions you want. No one here minds.


----------



## Misschief

LOL I knew that would happen... Thanks Susie!


----------



## shunt2011

Hi IrishLass
I am new to liquid soap making. Only after reading your glycerin method of making liquid soap, I got confidence to start. Please help me with couple of doubts:
1. You have mentioned that pre-melted oil. At what temperature the oil must be heated. Is it have to be boiled? When mixing the Lye solution with oil, is there any temperature level of oil we have to check?
2. As you do, can a beginner use stainless steel Whisk instead of hand/immersion blender (because I don't have blender). How fast one has to stir / whisk manually to get the saponification process successful? 
3. For boiling glycerin and KOH to get it dissolves, can we use Gas Stove or Electric Induction stove ? (because I don't have Crock Pot)
4. Please confirm if there is absolutely no need to cook the paste using crock pot / slow cooker and just leave it covered for few to several hours. ( I am asking this doubt as some say that it has to be on low heat setting in crock pot and whisk every 30 minutes for 4 to 8 hours).
Sorry to put so many questions. I am new and hence needed to get it well in my mind before I start doing the liquid soap which is clear liquid soap and not opaque. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Not IL but can answer your questions.

The oils are just melted, many do not measure the temperature. They will be warm.

Yes, you can use a whisk but it will take a bit longer than with an immersion blend.

You cook the glycerin and KOH on the stovetop in a stainless steel pan.

You do not need to cook the soap. Once it's got the foamy/bubbly top just cover it and set it aside.

Good luck!

Oops, seems Susie and I were typing at the same time.


----------



## Susie

We were all typing at the same time, LOL.

The reason we can all answer this is we have all tried it.  This is truly the easy way to make liquid glycerin soap.  No stress, no muss, no fuss.  

I did forget to specify a stainless steel pot, which shunt2011 caught. 

Also, do not despair if you do not see flying bubbles.  I did not for quite a while.  I did get paste, though, so I knew it started saponification.  You really only have to get it to where the oils and lye water do not separate.  It will do all the rest by itself.


----------



## dingi

Susie said:


> We were all typing at the same time, LOL.
> 
> The reason we can all answer this is we have all tried it.  This is truly the easy way to make liquid glycerin soap.  No stress, no muss, no fuss.
> 
> I did forget to specify a stainless steel pot, which shunt2011 caught.
> 
> Also, do not despair if you do not see flying bubbles.  I did not for quite a while.  I did get paste, though, so I knew it started saponification.  You really only have to get it to where the oils and lye water do not separate.  It will do all the rest by itself.



Thank you very much Susie, Misschief, Shunt2011 for your reply clearing my doubts about the procedure till IrishLass gets in to reply. After reading your reply my confidence has grown. Thanks once again to you.


----------



## DeeAnna

I think it's funny on one hand but seriously cool on the other that EVERY ONE of you who has replied has said almost exactly the same thing. Wow!


----------



## Susie

Great minds and all that...

But, no, it is that those were questions with pretty cut and dried answers.  And we have all tried it, so we know. (as do you )


----------



## IrishLass

dingi said:


> Hi IrishLass
> I am new to liquid soap making. Only after reading your glycerin method of making liquid soap, I got confidence to start. Please help me with couple of doubts:
> 1. You have mentioned that pre-melted oil. At what temperature the oil must be heated. Is it have to be boiled? When mixing the Lye solution with oil, is there any temperature level of oil we have to check?
> 2. As you do, can a beginner use stainless steel Whisk instead of hand/immersion blender (because I don't have blender). How fast one has to stir / whisk manually to get the saponification process successful?
> 3. For boiling glycerin and KOH to get it dissolves, can we use Gas Stove or Electric Induction stove ? (because I don't have Crock Pot)
> 4. Please confirm if there is absolutely no need to cook the paste using crock pot / slow cooker and just leave it covered for few to several hours. ( I am asking this doubt as some say that it has to be on low heat setting in crock pot and whisk every 30 minutes for 4 to 8 hours).
> Sorry to put so many questions. I am new and hence needed to get it well in my mind before I start doing the liquid soap which is clear liquid soap and not opaque. Thanks.


 
Wow- you gals are awesome- you make things so easy for me! 

I'll go ahead and add my 2-cents to the soap pot anyway....

First things first- Welcome, Dingi! 

Answer to question 1: I heat my oils on medium-low. No boiling. Just gently heat them together until the oils are clear/no longer cloudy. Once clear, I then cover my pot and remove from heat while I start heating the glycerin/KOH in a separate pot to dissolve. The only boiling I do is with the glycerin/KOH solution- those I boil together until totally clear. Once clear, I immediately add them right into my set-aside melted oils. No need to take any temperatures- I never do. You can if you want to for the sake of curiosity, but there's absolutely no need. 

Answer to question 2: I don't use a stick-blender with mine in the beginning stages, I just use a stainless whisk instead to stir things up. The only time I use my stick-blender is later on when I'm diluting the paste (when things aren't as incredibly hot anymore). Even then, though, a stick-blender is not an absolute necessity, but it does make dilution proceed much easier. 

RE: How fast to stir..... I don't stir super fast or anything like that. I just stir at a comfortable pace for my arm, which I suppose is about medium pace. My aim is just keep the mixture in continuous motion- without exhausting my arm- until I see tiny flying bubbles floating up from the pot into the air around my head, which usually takes about 8 to 10 minutes for me. I should make a note at this point that if you don't see flying bubbles after 10 minutes of whisking.... or ever..... don't panic. Like Susie said, some people never see the flying bubbles, and that's okay. I've learned that they are really nothing more than a just a fun visual indicator that your mixture is proceeding along fine. *When in doubt-* if you have been whisking for 8 to 10 minutes and you haven't seen any flying bubbles, but the batter is holding together fine without separating into oils and glycerin- it's perfectly fine to just cover the pot and walk away. 

Answer to question 3: No worries- I've actually never used a crockpot to make soap. I just use my electric stove-top and stainless steel pots or bowls when I soap. A gas stove or induction stove are also perfectly fine sources of heat.

Answer to question 4: I _never, ever_ use heat to cook my batter to the paste stage. There's absolutely no need to do so. Those that say that the batter _has_ to be continually heated on a low setting and _must _be stirred every 30 minutes for 4 to 8 hours are just plain wrong. There are no if's, and's or but's about it. You can certainly do it that way if you want to, but why would you ever want to when you absolutely don't have to, I always say? Confirmation complete. 

No need to apologize for asking questions. Questions are good and welcome! Whenever in doubt, don't be afraid to keep asking. We want things to turn out well for you.


IrishLass


----------



## LisaAnne

Great information! , looks like I have all I need to try this. You all made it sound so easy. (side note,  I made the base soap bar recipe you all suggested and it helps to have a starting point to build from, thanks!) now I'm confident enough to try liquid soap, that seemed out of my reach. This is a wonderful place to learn!


----------



## Misschief

LisaAnne said:


> Great information! , looks like I have all I need to try this. You all made it sound so easy. (side note,  I made the base soap bar recipe you all suggested and it helps to have a starting point to build from, thanks!) now I'm confident enough to try liquid soap, that seemed out of my reach. This is a wonderful place to learn!



This method of making liquid soap is so easy and SO, so addicting! I already have enough liquid soap to last me months but I really want to make more. It's almost instant gratification.


----------



## Susie

I was just talking to my hubby about this, and how some groups make liquid soapmaking into some huge, difficult thing.  He said it must be like the old Rice Krispie commercial where the mom goes into the kitchen and throws flour around and stuff to make the Rice Krispie treats seem super difficult to get praise and make folks feel guilty.  I told him I thought he might be right on that one.


----------



## LisaAnne

I'd be doing it now, but my job is getting in the of my soaping!


----------



## dingi

IrishLass said:


> Wow- you gals are awesome- you make things so easy for me!
> 
> I'll go ahead and add my 2-cents to the soap pot anyway....
> 
> First things first- Welcome, Dingi!
> 
> Answer to question 1: I heat my oils on medium-low. No boiling. Just gently heat them together until the oils are clear/no longer cloudy. Once clear, I then cover my pot and remove from heat while I start heating the glycerin/KOH in a separate pot to dissolve. The only boiling I do is with the glycerin/KOH solution- those I boil together until totally clear. Once clear, I immediately add them right into my set-aside melted oils. No need to take any temperatures- I never do. You can if you want to for the sake of curiosity, but there's absolutely no need.
> 
> Answer to question 2: I don't use a stick-blender with mine in the beginning stages, I just use a stainless whisk instead to stir things up. The only time I use my stick-blender is later on when I'm diluting the paste (when things aren't as incredibly hot anymore). Even then, though, a stick-blender is not an absolute necessity, but it does make dilution proceed much easier.
> 
> RE: How fast to stir..... I don't stir super fast or anything like that. I just stir at a comfortable pace for my arm, which I suppose is about medium pace. My aim is just keep the mixture in continuous motion- without exhausting my arm- until I see tiny flying bubbles floating up from the pot into the air around my head, which usually takes about 8 to 10 minutes for me. I should make a note at this point that if you don't see flying bubbles after 10 minutes of whisking.... or ever..... don't panic. Like Susie said, some people never see the flying bubbles, and that's okay. I've learned that they are really nothing more than a just a fun visual indicator that your mixture is proceeding along fine. *When in doubt-* if you have been whisking for 8 to 10 minutes and you haven't seen any flying bubbles, but the batter is holding together fine without separating into oils and glycerin- it's perfectly fine to just cover the pot and walk away.
> 
> Answer to question 3: No worries- I've actually never used a crockpot to make soap. I just use my electric stove-top and stainless steel pots or bowls when I soap. A gas stove or induction stove are also perfectly fine sources of heat.
> 
> Answer to question 4: I _never, ever_ use heat to cook my batter to the paste stage. There's absolutely no need to do so. Those that say that the batter _has_ to be continually heated on a low setting and _must _be stirred every 30 minutes for 4 to 8 hours are just plain wrong. There are no if's, and's or but's about it. You can certainly do it that way if you want to, but why would you ever want to when you absolutely don't have to, I always say? Confirmation complete.
> 
> No need to apologize for asking questions. Questions are good and welcome! Whenever in doubt, don't be afraid to keep asking. We want things to turn out well for you.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Thanks a lot IrishLass for explanation of every step of making liquid soap and  detailed answer to all my doubts clearly well that  now I am fully confident to make liquid soap.


----------



## LisaAnne

Susie said:


> I was just talking to my hubby about this, and how some groups make liquid soapmaking into some huge, difficult thing.  He said it must be like the old Rice Krispie commercial where the mom goes into the kitchen and throws flour around and stuff to make the Rice Krispie treats seem super difficult to get praise and make folks feel guilty.  I told him I thought he might be right on that one.



I think your right on that, the others had me afraid  
But I have to say, I've been sitting here all night getting a handle on this. Once I have the math down the method is great!


----------



## LisaAnne

Misschief said:


> This method of making liquid soap is so easy and SO, so addicting! I already have enough liquid soap to last me months but I really want to make more. It's almost instant gratification.




It does look fun, I will have to just make room for jars next to my bars!


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## DeeAnna

There's a new thread that might contribute to the recent discussion here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58377


----------



## dingi

IrishLass said:


> RE: How fast to stir..... I don't stir super fast or anything like that. I just stir at a comfortable pace for my arm, which I suppose is about medium pace. My aim is just keep the mixture in continuous motion- without exhausting my arm- until I see tiny flying bubbles floating up from the pot into the air around my head, which usually takes about 8 to 10 minutes for me. I should make a note at this point that if you don't see flying bubbles after 10 minutes of whisking.... or ever..... don't panic. Like Susie said, some people never see the flying bubbles, and that's okay. I've learned that they are really nothing more than a just a fun visual indicator that your mixture is proceeding along fine. *When in doubt-* if you have been whisking for 8 to 10 minutes and you haven't seen any flying bubbles, but the batter is holding together fine without separating into oils and glycerin- it's perfectly fine to just cover the pot and walk away.
> IrishLass



Please clarify this doubt.
When the batter is holding together without separating into oils and glycerin, we can cover the pot with  Lid and walk away, allowing it do the process on its own. In this context I have a doubt if the Stainless steel pot we use for this must have airtight Lid so that the vapor do not escape?  I have vague memory that I have read it earlier some where in the internet and some people insist airtight lid. 
About the soap calculators, in this forum, I read that if the  purity of KOH is 90%, one must use soapcalc.net calculator and if the  purity is 95 % , then one must use summerbeemeadow.com Calculator. Is it  correct?
Thanks


----------



## kchaystack

I do not think the lid does needs to be airtight - I am not really sure where you would find that short of a pressure cooker...

As for the soap calc, you can use Soapee.com - it allows you to input your KOH purity manually.


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## DeeAnna

I would ~not~ use an air tight cover. Something that is truly air tight (as in KC's pressure cooker) may be asking for trouble. You do not want the container to build pressure or pull a vacuum as the soap heats up or cools down or if any gases are produced.

Snug and well covered is fine -- plastic wrap for example. I just put the normal lid or a dinner plate on the top of my soap pot.


----------



## IrishLass

dingi said:


> Please clarify this doubt.
> When the batter is holding together without separating into oils and glycerin, we can cover the pot with Lid and walk away, allowing it do the process on its own. In this context I have a doubt if the Stainless steel pot we use for this must have airtight Lid so that the vapor do not escape? I have vague memory that I have read it earlier some where in the internet and some people insist airtight lid.
> About the soap calculators, in this forum, I read that if the purity of KOH is 90%, one must use soapcalc.net calculator and if the purity is 95 % , then one must use summerbeemeadow.com Calculator. Is it correct?
> Thanks


 
I don't use a 'true' airtight lid, such as what you'd find on a pressure cooker or anything like that. I just use one of my lids from one of my saucepans that happens to fit my stainless soaping bowl fairly decently. By 'fairly decently', I mean that it fits really well with maybe just an itty-bitty hairline gap on one side. For what it's worth, from time to time I have also just used plastic-wrap to cover my bowl.

Re: lye purity and calculators. On SoapCalc, you can adjust the lye purity for either 100% purity or 90%, but on Summerbee Meadows, it is set at about 94% and you can't change it. I've never used Soapee, but as Kchaystack and others say, you can adjust it manually to whatever is the purity of your lye.

Don't laugh, but I actually never knew the exact purity of the KOH I had been using for the past 4 years for my GLS, because the place where I bought it closed down after the owner passed away (Snowdrift Farms), and there was no way for me to ever find out. But for what it's worth, I've only ever used SummerbeeMeadows Advanced lye calculator with it (with the superfat set at 3%), and my GLS has always come out great for me. 

As an aside, two-batches ago I finally used up the last of my Snowdrift Farm KOH, and started in on my KOH from Brambleberry, still using Summerbee at [email protected] superfat for my recent 2 batches- even though I know that Brambleberry's KOH is 90% purity (just wanted to see what would happen)- and both batches came out great nevertheless. 


IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna

Irish Lass -- I doublechecked my notes after reading your last post. The last time I checked, both the BB and SMB calcs are set to about 95% purity for KOH. I'd forgotten about the BB calc being that way - it's been awhile. Anyways, either calc should give you about the same results.

ETA: 
Ah, I see what you're getting at -- the BB website now says, "...As of July 2015, our potassium hydroxide is 90% purity...." 
Neverrrr miiiind!

ETA 2: 
I checked the BB calc and it still looks to be set at about 95% KOH purity. You'd think they would tweak the formulas to match the lye they're selling.


----------



## dingi

Thank you DeeAnna, kchaystack, IrishLass for your reply about the airtight lid and about the Lye calculators.


----------



## zzzma

Hello All! I have been reading this thread for weeks along with links etc. and am going to attempt it this weekend. First want to thank you all for wealth of information you willingly share with us! I used to make candles and dabbled in soap about 8 yrs ago. I still have my Kelsi mold in the basement and am glad I never got rid of it! But after I attempt the liquid soap, I know I want to make bars again. Anyway, I've got all my supplies and just received my Lye from the Lye Guy. The MSD sheet for the KOH says it's percentage is 84.5-90.5%. My question I guess is, which percentage would I use to calculate? The high side or low or average? I am planning on using the basic recipe IL posted in the tutorial but I think I want to use the CP method since I don't have a crockpot yet. Thanks again and my name is Kim (shooterkim from years ago).


----------



## dingi

IrishLass said:


> As an aside, two-batches ago I finally used up the last of my Snowdrift Farm KOH, and started in on my KOH from Brambleberry, still using Summerbee at [email protected] superfat for my recent 2 batches- even though I know that Brambleberry's KOH is 90% purity (just wanted to see what would happen)- and both batches came out great nevertheless.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



IrishLass, it is great to hear that both batches for you came out well, despite purity of KOH is unknown or about 90% and still using Summberbee at 3% superfat. That means even if the purity of KOH varies from different supplies, using Summeerbee calc would bring good results. Thanks.

One more doubt about lye solution and oil to be poured :
I don't know if I am asking a silly doubt, but as a beginner it happens to arise from my mind. Please share your experience that may show light on this aspect to me.
1. Is it necessary ( or possible) to pour the lye solution, scrape it till the last drop into the oil pot, to ensure accuracy of the proportion? But still I am thinking how to go about it with accuracy. 
2. Same thing with oil: Weighing each oil ( Olive oil , Coconut oil and Castor oil) separately and pouring into the designated soap pot, some oil may still be sticking to the container from which we pour. How to do it perfectly? Thanks


----------



## DeeAnna

Yes, it is important to scrape the container well. But don't take anyone's word for this -- it's easy to prove it to yourself and you owe it to yourself to answer questions like this with practical experience. Here's how I would do this experiment:

Keep your scale turned on. 
Pour lye or oil into your soap pot. Weigh the lye or oil container. 
Scrape the container well. Reweigh the container.

How much lye or oil did you scrape out of its container? 
What percentage is the "scraped weight" compared with the total weight? 
Is the scraped weight an important part of the total weight?

How to scrape out a container perfectly? 

Cleaning a container requires patience, thoroughness, and a good scraper -- but you will never be able to do it perfectly. 
A better way is to get away from weighing separate ingredients into multiple containers. 
With lye, this issue is often unavoidable the way most people make their lye solution. 
With oils, learn to accurately measure directly into your soaping pot. This will totally eliminate the error.


----------



## dingi

DeeAnna, thanks for your suggestion and I some what understood  and would try to learn weighing all the Oil directly in the designated soap pot. 

I would like to know IrishLass's experience  also regarding my query and awaiting reply :neutral:


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## ngian

dingi said:


> DeeAnna, thanks for your suggestion and I some what understood  and would try to learn weighing all the Oil directly in the designated soap pot.



Just beware that there might fall in the pot a little more liquid oil than the recipe needs and it will be difficult to remove the excess amount from the other oils that are already there.


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## DeeAnna

If you're going to measure oils directly into the soap pot, then how you pour becomes even more important. It is not a wise idea to pour the whole amount of an oil directly from a large container if you want precise control. Most people aren't that good. 

Instead, pour most of the oil from the container but stop short -- do not pour the last ounce or two. Switch to a pipette or a spoon to add the last bit of oil to reach the target weight. Or pour a small amount of oil from its large container into a small measuring cup with a sharp, accurate spout, and pour the last bit from the cup.


----------



## dingi

Thanks ngian and DeeAnna, 
I did not mean to pour oil from a large container. After storing enough oil approximately in a small container and then pour it to the designated soap making pot. By "Directly", what I  meant is, instead of measuring each oil separately and then pouring it, I thought to put the soap pot in the digital scale and press "Tare" button to make the pot weight "0"and then pour the first oil till it reads the required grams. Then press the "Tare" button again to make reading "0". Then pour the other oil till the reading shows the needed grams and continue with the same with other oil. I am not sure if this is correct. 
Thanks DeeAnna


----------



## DeeAnna

That should work, Dingi!


----------



## dingi

DeeAnna said:


> That should work, Dingi!


Thanks DeeAnna. Hope it works.


----------



## kchaystack

It will work. It's what I do.


----------



## dingi

kchaystack said:


> It will work. It's what I do.


Thanks kchaystack. That's nice to hear


----------



## IrishLass

dingi said:


> 1. Is it necessary ( or possible) to pour the lye solution, scrape it till the last drop into the oil pot, to ensure accuracy of the proportion? But still I am thinking how to go about it with accuracy.


 
I'm late to the party, but for what it's worth, when I scrape my lye solution into my oils, I use 2 spatulas. One to scrape out practically every last drop from the container (or as close as I can get to every drop), and the other to scape off whatever leftover solution might still be clinging to my first spatula. In the end, it's only natural for a small fraction to get left behind, for it's impossible to be 100% perfect/precise, but that small of an amount is not enough to cause problems in my soap by any means. 




dingi said:


> 2. Same thing with oil: Weighing each oil ( Olive oil , Coconut oil and Castor oil) separately and pouring into the designated soap pot, some oil may still be sticking to the container from which we pour. How to do it perfectly? Thanks


 
Again- it's impossible to do it perfectly, but for what it's worth, this is what I do:

1) First, I place my soaping pot on my scale, tare it out, and weigh the largest amount of my batch oil/fat into the pot. Then I remove the pot from the scale and set it aside. 

2) Next, I get out a separate measuring container and place it on the scale, tare it out, and weigh out my next largest oil/fat into it. Then I scrape that out into my main pot using my 2 spatula routine explained above. When done, I place the now empty measuring container back on my scale, which, if all the oil is properly scraped out, should register as weighing zero on the scale.

3) Then I repeat #2 with all the remaining oils in my batch.

I personally don't like keeping my main pot on the scale, taring/pouring, taring/pouring each oil directly into it one right after the other. I used to do that, but as Ngian said, if a little more oil falls into the pot than the amount you intended, it's very difficult to remove that particular oil without also removing some of your other oils....... which happened to me one too many times for me to ever want to do it again. lol


IrishLass


----------



## dingi

IrishLass said:


> I'm late to the party, but for what it's worth, when I scrape my lye solution into my oils, I use 2 spatulas. One to scrape out practically every last drop from the container (or as close as I can get to every drop), and the other to scape off whatever leftover solution might still be clinging to my first spatula. In the end, it's only natural for a small fraction to get left behind, for it's impossible to be 100% perfect/precise, but that small of an amount is not enough to cause problems in my soap by any means.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again- it's impossible to do it perfectly, but for what it's worth, this is what I do:
> 
> 1) First, I place my soaping pot on my scale, tare it out, and weigh the largest amount of my batch oil/fat into the pot. Then I remove the pot from the scale and set it aside.
> 
> 2) Next, I get out a separate measuring container and place it on the scale, tare it out, and weigh out my next largest oil/fat into it. Then I scrape that out into my main pot using my 2 spatula routine explained above. When done, I place the now empty measuring container back on my scale, which, if all the oil is properly scraped out, should register as weighing zero on the scale.
> 
> 3) Then I repeat #2 with all the remaining oils in my batch.
> 
> I personally don't like keeping my main pot on the scale, taring/pouring, taring/pouring each oil directly into it one right after the other. I used to do that, but as Ngian said, if a little more oil falls into the pot than the amount you intended, it's very difficult to remove that particular oil without also removing some of your other oils....... which happened to me one too many times for me to ever want to do it again. lol
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Wow IrishLass. That is a very good explanation of your method of weighing Oil. It is a nice idea using two spatulas to scrape out the lye. Definitely it has shown light on this aspect to me and I would try to do it. Thanks


----------



## Susie

IrishLass said:


> *I personally don't like keeping my main pot on the scale, taring/pouring, taring/pouring each oil directly into it one right after the other. *I used to do that, but as Ngian said, if a little more oil falls into the pot than the amount you intended, it's very difficult to remove that particular oil without also removing some of your other oils....... which happened to me one too many times for me to ever want to do it again. lol
> 
> IrishLass



This!  I still use separate containers for liquid oils.  I do weigh my solid oils in the same container, as it is easily removed.  But liquid oils get weighed out separately.  I would rather wash an extra dish or two than have to go to the computer to re-calculate the whole recipe.


----------



## dingi

Susie Thanks for your view and when it comes to liquid, as IrishLass and you say, I also feel that it is better to weigh each oil separately which would be safe and very close to accuracy.


----------



## zzzma

How do you get any fragrance in this soap (either FO or EO) with the Olive Oil smell? It's a hard one to disguise!


----------



## IrishLass

I can't speak for anyone else, but mine does very well with my FOs, and I don't need to add a lot of scent either. I normally scent it somewhere between .3% and 1% of the final weight of the finished soap, depending on the scent strength of my FO.

What kind of olive oil are you using? For what it's worth, I use the Kirkland brand Pure Olive Oil from Costco, which I believe is Grade B olive oil (i.e., not virgin or extra virgin). 


IrishLass


----------



## zzzma

Oh...I used EVOO! Our Costco is too far so I'll check what Sam's has. We've only ever had EVOO around here because that's all DH uses to cook with. Do the lower grades of OO have less scent? Obviously I can't open them in the store and start comparing smells..lol Thanks for the tip!


----------



## dingi

IrishLass said:


> For what it's worth, I use the Kirkland brand Pure Olive Oil from Costco, which I believe is Grade B olive oil (i.e., not virgin or extra virgin).
> 
> 
> IrishLass



I was thinking that Virgin or Extra Virgin Olive oil is needed to make LS. But now it surprised me that you are using just pure Olive oil. As coconut oil will create good bubble/lather and olive oil individually would not produce lather,  if one use Virgin or Extra Virgin olive oil 65 % (with Coconut oil 25 % and Castor Oil 10 %), will  it reduce lather? Instead as you said, just any good brand pure olive oil is better in this recipe to give more lather as virgin olive olive will be more potent hindering lather? Is that a reason why you use pure olive oil instead of Virgin/Extra virgin olive oil?


----------



## DeeAnna

The lower grades of olive oil are used for soaping because of lower cost. Also the scent is milder, and that can be a plus in soaping (as well as in some cooking). The lather should be about the same regardless of grade. Save the virgin or extra virgin for food!


----------



## dingi

DeeAnna said:


> The lower grades of olive oil are used for soaping because of lower cost. Also the scent is milder, and that can be a plus in soaping (as well as in some cooking). The lather should be about the same regardless of grade. Save the virgin or extra virgin for food!



Thanks DeeAnna. That's nice to know that one can save Virgin/Extra virgin Olive oil for food and to use lower grade for soap.


----------



## Susie

I use the Sam's store brand of OO, it is light yellow (so it does not discolor my soap), and it does not smell of OO.


----------



## topofmurrayhill

IrishLass said:


> For what it's worth, I use the Kirkland brand Pure Olive Oil from Costco, which I believe is Grade B olive oil (i.e., not virgin or extra virgin).



There are actually no letter grades in the government standards.

The grade of the Kirkland Pure Olive Oil is simply "olive oil," which designates a blend of "refined olive oil" and "virgin olive oil" (typically a lot more refined than virgin). This Kirkland product is the highest of the grades suited for soaping. "Refined olive oil" is the next grade down after "olive oil."

Below those grades is "olive-pomace oil," which is a blend of "refined olive-pomace oil" and "virgin olive oil." This too is an edible oil that's good for soaping.

The two inedible grades are "lampante olive oil" and "crude olive-pomace oil." Lampante is virgin oil that sucks and needs refining. The other is unrefined solvent-extracted oil.

Sorry about the OO geekout.


----------



## dingi

Susie said:


> I use the Sam's store brand of OO, it is light yellow (so it does not discolor my soap), and it does not smell of OO.





topofmurrayhill said:


> There are actually no letter grades in the government standards.
> 
> The grade of the Kirkland Pure Olive Oil is simply "olive oil," which  designates a blend of "refined olive oil" and "virgin olive oil"  (typically a lot more refined than virgin). This Kirkland product is the  highest of the grades suited for soaping. "Refined olive oil" is the  next grade down after "olive oil."
> 
> Below those grades is "olive-pomace oil," which is a blend of "refined  olive-pomace oil" and "virgin olive oil." This too is an edible oil  that's good for soaping.
> 
> The two inedible grades are "lampante olive oil" and "crude olive-pomace  oil." Lampante is virgin oil that sucks and needs refining. The other  is unrefined solvent-extracted oil.
> 
> Sorry about the OO geekout.


Thanks Susie for your info.  I also heard that olive oil pomace should not be used in LS making. Some where in the internet also people complain after using pomace olive oil, that the final trace of soap paste become bad and useless. Is that true?
Thanks topofmurrayhill for giving detailed info about grades of olive oil


----------



## Susie

I only bought pomace OO once.  I did not like how it behaved in bar soap, and I truly did not appreciate it messing up my liquid soap.  I tossed the whole batch.  I don't remember now if it separated or what, but I hate to throw anything away, so that was bad enough to waste a whole bunch.


----------



## Misschief

Susie said:


> I only bought pomace OO once.  I did not like how it behaved in bar soap, and I truly did not appreciate it messing up my liquid soap.  I tossed the whole batch.  I don't remember now if it separated or what, but I hate to throw anything away, so that was bad enough to waste a whole bunch.



I use OO pomace all the time for my soap. The only issue I've ever had is that the colour of the oil is inconsistent between cans. I have read not to use it in liquid soap but I've had no issues with it in my CP soaps.


----------



## Seawolfe

I use pomace OO from some soap supply company that had a sale. I've only used it in bar soap, and cant tell the difference from the Kirkland OO. I was told it traces faster, but not that I've seen. Given that olive oil is THE most adulterated oil, I always wonder if that contributed when someone has a bad result. But then why would pomace OO be adulterated?


----------



## DeeAnna

Edible pomace OO (the lowest grade of OO I've ever seen to purchase) is allowed to have a higher % of unsaponifiable content and a higher % of free fatty acids compared with the better grades of OO. 

That doesn't mean any given pomace OO WILL have a higher unsaponfiable and fatty acid content, just that it CAN. This greater variability in pomace may be the reason why some people have had trouble using pomace for soaping and others don't. 

I agree with you, Seawolfe, that the other issue is adulteration. It's hard to say if pomace OO is adulterated as often as the higher grades, because the reports I've read about this problem tend to focus on adulteration of the better grades. I would think just the variability in pomace allowed by the standards is enough to affect how it will work in soap.


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna, that is pretty much my thoughts.  I just decided to find one brand I can purchase locally and stick to that.  The OO from Sam's seems to be the most consistent product I can buy locally for a reasonable price.  I did go down on the % of OO I typically used when I started using it consistently, as I just did not seem to need as much to get a good result.


----------



## topofmurrayhill

DeeAnna said:


> Edible pomace OO (the lowest grade of OO I've ever seen to purchase) is allowed to have a higher % of unsaponifiable content and a higher % of free fatty acids compared with the better grades of OO.



The unsaponifiable content can be a little higher for the edible pomace grades, but the FFA standards are the same.

The lowest FFA levels are required for the refined grades. Refined olive oil and refined olive-pomace oil can have at most 0.3% FFA as oleic acid.

The grades that are blends of refined and virgin are allowed a higher FFA level. Olive oil and olive-pomace oil can have up to 1.0% FFA.

Extra-virgin olive oil can have up to 0.8%, slightly better than the blends but realistically more than the refined oils.

One might not guess, but the highest allowable FFA level is for virgin olive oil, which can be up to 2.0%. Higher than that is deemed unfit for consumption and would have to be refined.

Names of official grades are underlined in an effort to make things clearer.

More geeking out. Some time ago I read and downloaded both the USDA and IOC standards. Very educational.

Also potentially confusing. I'm not sure our own suppliers always totally understand what they are selling or label it precisely. We often talk about pomace oil as a singular thing, but olive-pomace oil, refined olive-pomace oil and crude olive-pomace oil are distinctly different things.

When we hear about pomace oil accelerating trace, only the inedible crude grade has an obvious reason for doing so, because the FFA level can be very high. I don't know if that's the explanation, but it makes sense.


----------



## DeeAnna

I stand corrected on the free fatty acids. That's what I get for speaking from memory.


----------



## topofmurrayhill

IrishLass said:


> I personally don't like keeping my main pot on the scale, taring/pouring, taring/pouring each oil directly into it one right after the other. I used to do that, but as Ngian said, if a little more oil falls into the pot than the amount you intended, it's very difficult to remove that particular oil without also removing some of your other oils....... which happened to me one too many times for me to ever want to do it again. lol



Yep, that is certainly the issue. My own way of dealing with it is to fast-pour the liquid oils reasonably close to the desired amount, then tiptoe the rest of the way using a disposable pipette. That makes it reasonably hard to frack up.


----------



## topofmurrayhill

DeeAnna said:


> I stand corrected on the free fatty acids. That's what I get for speaking from memory.



Nah, that's fine. I think now that I've typed it out I may actually have it all memorized. The thing I most wanted to point out is that there may be more confusion than people think:

It could be that people are getting a variable grade of pomace oil as you described. I guess that would be the crude stuff? Or they might just be getting different grades. If they get an edible grade I can't think of why it would misbehave or be variable or not work well in liquid soap.

The labeling is usually ambiguous. Most of it is incorrect from the start because olive-pomace oil should never be sold as olive oil, but they like to swap the words and call it olive oil pomace, which isn't a thing. Soaper's Choice happens to say "food grade" so that narrows it down. Bramble Berry also calls it olive oil pomace, but the reviews describe it as a variable product and most people get some degree of acceleration. I wonder if that could be unrefined pomace oil.


----------



## jules92207

I've used olive oil pomace (yes, I do believe that was how it was labeled, but it has been a while so I may be wrong) from Smart & Final and could work with it easily, but I did find it traced faster than my Kirkland pure olive oil. Since the pomace oil was sold in the cooking oils section I would certainly hope it's still an edible grade, but this discussion makes me question that now. I will say while I noticed a difference in trace I would not call it such a difference that I wouldn't use it if I could be more confident in its actual makeup.


----------



## topofmurrayhill

jules92207 said:


> I've used olive oil pomace (yes, I do believe that was how it was labeled, but it has been a while so I may be wrong) from Smart & Final and could work with it easily, but I did find it traced faster than my Kirkland pure olive oil. Since the pomace oil was sold in the cooking oils section I would certainly hope it's still an edible grade, but this discussion makes me question that now. I will say while I noticed a difference in trace I would not call it such a difference that I wouldn't use it if I could be more confident in its actual makeup.



Thanks for the input. We would have to say there is some mystery surrounding pomace oil. If you found it in the cooking oils section, then it must be an edible grade, probably olive-pomace oil (blended refined olive-pomace oil and virgin olive oil). If you find it accelerates trace I would not question that for a moment, but I don't know what the reason is. Theoretically you could use any edible grade with confidence for any kind of soaping including liquid. But if there are questions about pomace oil, avoid hassles and use the pure olive oil or refined olive oil grades.

USDA standards are one thing and the actual market is another. The scandal around olive oil isn't just about adulteration with other oils. A lot of it is just that the properties of olive oil offered for sale don't measure up to the quality standard for the stated grade.


----------



## dingi

Thanks Seawolfe, DeeAnna, Susie, topofmurrayhill for a valuable discussion about Olive oil pomace and adulteration. Conclusion must be that instead of getting into trouble by using pomace olive oil, one may stick on to a brand with pure olive oil (Refined+Virgin) that give good results.


----------



## Susie

Find an OO that you like and stick to that.  Having a product that behaves the same way on every batch of soap you make is very important.


----------



## dingi

Susie said:


> Find an OO that you like and stick to that.  Having a product that behaves the same way on every batch of soap you make is very important.


That's the nice solution to Olive oil.


----------



## dingi

DeeAnna, please clarify: A clarification needed about DeeAnna's  Water+Glycerin method (Water weight = KOH weight.
Glycerin weight = 2 x KOH weight) 
When full Glycerin method is used, we add KOH to room temperature glycerin and then boil it to make it completely dissolve.
If we add KOH to 1 part water at room temperature it would dissolve by itself without any external heat. Then after adding the 2 parts glycerin to this lye solution, do we need to boil it before adding it into the oil pot? 
(i read in this thread somewhere and I vaguely remember that you add 2 parts room temperature glycerin to the already hot KOH water without heating the mixture further. But I am not sure if I have understood it properly what you have said, hence clarify please)

Also please tell me if sodium lactate is necessary to dilute soap paste irrespective of method used. Can one skip using sodium lactate all together ?


----------



## ngian

Although I am not DeeAnna, and I have once used the glycerine method, you don't have to boil the water - KOH - glycerin mix at all. 

It's an eco friendly method as the only heat that you will need is the one that the reaction of KOH and water will give you. 

Just right after the KOH is fully dissolved in water then you add quickly the glycerine and after a few minutes of hand mixing you must add all these in the oils pot so as not to loose too much "physical" heat.


Eco friendly and very fast KOH soap creation method. Thank you DeeAnna.


----------



## dingi

ngian said:


> Although I am not DeeAnna, and I have once used the glycerine method, you don't have to boil the water - KOH - glycerin mix at all.
> 
> It's an eco friendly method as the only heat that you will need is the one that the reaction of KOH and water will give you.
> 
> Just right after the KOH is fully dissolved in water then you add quickly the glycerine and after a few minutes of hand mixing you must add all these in the oils pot so as not to loose too much "physical" heat.
> 
> 
> Eco friendly and very fast KOH soap creation method. Thank you DeeAnna.



Thanks ngian. Now it is clear about this method. Please tell me about the Sodium lactate query in dilution


----------



## ngian

Sodium lactate is said to make the dilution phase faster. I haven't tried it, you can do a test and see it for yourself. 

It is an optional ingredient though as I guess only time is influenced by its usage (and maybe adds a little humectant property).


----------



## dingi

ngian said:


> Sodium lactate is said to make the dilution phase faster. I haven't tried it, you can do a test and see it for yourself.
> 
> It is an optional ingredient though as I guess only time is influenced by its usage (and maybe adds a little humectant property).


Thanks ngian


----------



## IrishLass

Dingi- the SL is optional. I've diluted my paste with it, and also without it. I choose to use it because it makes the task of diluting go much easier/quicker for me in comparison to without.


IrishLass


----------



## dingi

IrishLass said:


> Dingi- the SL is optional. I've diluted my paste with it, and also without it. I choose to use it because it makes the task of diluting go much easier/quicker for me in comparison to without.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Thanks IrishLass. Thats nice to learn that it is optional (because it can happen sometimes that  SL is not available with me or in store). Now it is very much of clarity to me about this SL.


----------



## hlecter

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VUGV_H7bZU&list=TL0x7l9bj9OF5Hyaf8GG5E1GlasWG69xFS[/ame]


I am thinking its time to make some liquid soap for first time using KOH and following the instructions of this video with glycerin...


I would like to ask you
1) if i put some essential oil or a FO on the final liquid soap will it be still clear thick gel? Will it separate either??

2) Why some people use preservatives? I know that KOH and NaOH are compounds that prevent bacteria growth cause of the pH of the final soap.


----------



## hlecter

Update: After reading many many posts on this topic i decided to make some GLS soap for first time following IrishLass method  (post #8 ) and using DeeAnna   directions  on post #76 (1 part water/1 part KOH and then 2 parts glycerin)...

I think it came out good so far, i made zap test on different parts of the paste and there isnt at all...

It remains the dilution process which maybe the difficult part for  me... Could i make it now or i have to leave it overnight and  wait  until tomorrow???


----------



## DeeAnna

You can wait as long as you like to dilute. Just store the paste in an air tight container so it doesn't dry out. Some people store soap paste in a cupboard. Others store the paste in the refrigerator.

I don't dilute all of my paste right after I make it. The paste is easier to store than the diluted soap. I also use the paste for household cleaning -- just put some on my scrub pad and scour away.


----------



## hlecter

I forgot to mention that the whole procedure was fun!

So i ll store the paste on this air tight container and i will continue with the dillution after 5-6 hours... I think its ok...




"The paste is easier to store than the diluted soap".

I am sorry but what do you mean by that? I cannot understand why...


----------



## DeeAnna

"...I am sorry but what do you mean by that? I cannot understand why... ..."

Paste takes up less storage room than diluted soap because you are storing just the soap, not all the added water as well. 

Soap paste is also not runny, so you can store it in a plastic bag rather than a jar, if you prefer.


----------



## hlecter

DeeAnna said:


> "...I am sorry but what do you mean by that? I cannot understand why... ..."
> 
> Paste takes up less storage room than diluted soap because you are storing just the soap, not all the added water as well.
> 
> Soap paste is also not runny, so you can store it in a plastic bag rather than a jar, if you prefer.



Now i think i catch it! Thanks!

I found that jar yesterday and it can accomodate the dilution liquid (water and SL) too... So i am thinking on making the dilution on that jar... 
Or its gonna evaporate water and i have to measure paste weight again???


----------



## Susie

It should not evaporate much liquid.  But please understand that you need to not count on your dilution liquid to be a certain amount.  Sometimes soap paste requires more water to dilute it than others.  And your paste looks fairly stiff, so I would not be surprised at all if yours required a bit more liquid.


----------



## kchaystack

hlecter said:


> Now i think i catch it! Thanks!
> 
> I found that jar yesterday and it can accomodate the dilution liquid (water and SL) too... So i am thinking on making the dilution on that jar...
> Or its gonna evaporate water and i have to measure again???



IL and I both use canning jars to dilute.  I just put in the paste and the water, put a lid on it and leave it for several hours before checking and stir it with a chopstick.  Then I add more water if I need to, but the lid back on and leave it for a few more hours.  I repeat this until it is all dissolved.  I have found it takes about a day to a day and a half and anywhere from 60 - 70 % water weight to dilute my paste.    

I lid it to prevent evaporation and to keep anything from falling into it.


----------



## hlecter

Thank you both for your posts...

IL also mentioned SB stirring during dilution on the initial post...


----------



## kchaystack

hlecter said:


> Thank you both for your posts...
> 
> IL also mentioned SB stirring during dilution on the initial post...



Yeah I do not do that.  She also heats hers in a canning pot.  I think it just speeds up the process, but if you just let it go, it will dilute fine.


----------



## hlecter

My paste was really taffy with clumps I used about 80-85% water for dilution so far using IrishLass method...

I wouldnt use more...

This is whats going on now.. Its a white cloudy layer.. Is it normal??








Really sorry for the large pics...


----------



## kchaystack

hlecter said:


> My paste was really taffy with clumps I used about 80-85% water for dilution so far using IrishLass method...
> 
> I wouldnt use more...
> 
> This is whats going on now.. Its a white cloudy layer.. Is it normal??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Really sorry for the large pics...



Your pic is not loading.  

Taffy is good for paste.  I would let it sit overnight and see what it looks like in the morning


----------



## Dahila

kchaystack said:


> Yeah I do not do that.  She also heats hers in a canning pot.  I think it just speeds up the process, but if you just let it go, it will dilute fine.


I do exactly as Irishlass and every time I get the syropy, honey like beautiful soap)


----------



## Susie

hlecter said:


> My paste was really taffy with clumps I used about 80-85% water for dilution so far using IrishLass method...
> 
> I wouldnt use more...
> 
> This is whats going on now.. Its a white cloudy layer.. Is it normal??



That looks like undiluted paste to me.  If it is still white in the morning, try adding about 1/4 of the white amount in water to start with, then add decreasing amounts as you go.  If it is undiluted paste, the white layer should get smaller.  

If it does not get smaller with the 1/4 water addition, stop adding water.  That means that you have unsaponified fats.  That is a whole 'nother discussion.  

Let us know what happens, please?


----------



## hlecter

hi!!! Today looks like that white layer got like yellow coloured and bigger... How can that happened?













Susie said:


> If it does not get smaller with the 1/4 water addition, stop adding water.  That means that you have unsaponified fats.  That is a whole 'nother discussion.



unsaponified fats means that i have to stir them more on the stage when i got the paste ?

I zapped the paste there wasnt at all... May try 2% SF next time?


----------



## Susie

Could you please post your entire recipe (including batch water and dilution water listed separately) in weights?  It would help us troubleshoot much faster and more efficiently.


----------



## hlecter

Here is my recipe.






From 124 g liquids i first dissolve KOH with the same amount water (41 g KOH: 41 g H2O) and when it was fully dissolved i added the remaining 2 parts of liquid (83 g glycerin).


----------



## Susie

That should be fine on the superfat amount.  Just try spraying with rubbing alcohol to burst any bubbles, then add water slowly and in small amounts with some heat to help break up that paste.


----------



## hlecter

Thank you, i ll try it and i wrote back...

I forgot to mention that when i made the paste yesterday while i was stiring with my SB after the "trace" suddenly the paste became too hard! It was impossible to stir with SB on that time, so i continued with a big spoon and again it was really difficult to stir. 
Finally the paste had the translucent dark yellow-golden colour but it was as stiff and hard as cocoa butter (in solid state).

The video IrishLass posted #8 and yours from soaping101 on post #19 show the paste on the same stage looking much more soft...

I dont know if it is important but i have to mention it...

*EDIT: !!!!

*i followed Susies advice and i add water on small amounts 2-3% and looking how its going every time... 

Finally the solution cleared!!!! I think that wasnt unsaponified oil or a strange issue, but my paste need much water... Its consistency is great, thinner than honey and sure not watery...

Here are some pics... Its next to a marketing shampoo (J&J)  for clearness comparison. The second image is about an hour later, it looks like its clarity gets better time by time.

(If you can notice some little black pieces on the jar they are from the bottom of inner pot that i had the melted oils..)​







And something important...

Summarily i used about 170% of water only for the dillution...


----------



## Susie

Looks great to me!  Good job!  If you will let that soap sit (sequester) for a few days to a week, those pieces should settle out and you can pour off the liquid without getting those back in.


----------



## IrishLass

hlecter said:


> I forgot to mention that when i made the paste yesterday while i was stiring with my SB after the "trace" suddenly the paste became too hard! It was impossible to stir with SB on that time, so i continued with a big spoon and again it was really difficult to stir. Finally the paste had the translucent dark yellow-golden colour but it was as stiff and hard as cocoa butter (in solid state).
> 
> The video IrishLass posted #8 and yours from soaping101 on post #19 show the paste on the same stage looking much more soft...


 
I've found through experience that there can be different levels of hardness/softness when it comes to paste, and that it's not always easy to judge hardness/softness from pictures. For example, in one of the pics I posted on the forum of my paste in a spoon (in the bottom of *this post here* ), it looks like the paste is very soft, but it actually was quite firm/sticky and took a fair bit of muscle to scoop it out of my pot! LOL 

For what its worth, though, you can be absolutely confident that you have reached the paste stage successfully as soon as your batter is no longer in a liquid state/is impossible to stir, or is firm/solid enough to hold its own shape.

From your description above, once your batter had 'suddenly' become too hard, I would not even have attempted to stir it. In my opinion, that's a sure sign that you had successfully reached the paste stage at that point. 





hlecter said:


> *EDIT: !!!!*
> 
> i followed Susies advice and i add water on small amounts 2-3% and looking how its going every time...
> 
> Finally the solution cleared!!!! I think that wasnt unsaponified oil or a strange issue, but my paste need much water... Its consistency is great, thinner than honey and sure not watery...


 
Yay! 

For what it's worth, the more olive oil in a liquid soap formula, the more water it will need during dilution to dissolve the paste. I use only 65% OO in mine and can get away with using less water than you needed for yours, which included more OO.



hlecter said:


> Here are some pics... Its next to a marketing shampoo (J&J) for clearness comparison. The second image is about an hour later, it looks like its clarity gets better time by time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (If you can notice some little black pieces on the jar they are from the bottom of inner pot that i had the melted oils..)​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And something important...
> 
> Summarily i used about 170% of water only for the dillution...


 

Looks great!


IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna

Well done!


----------



## hlecter

IrishLass said:


> I've found through experience that there can be different levels of hardness/softness when it comes to paste, and that it's not always easy to judge hardness/softness from pictures. For example, in one of the pics I posted on the forum of my paste in a spoon (in the bottom of *this post here* ), it looks like the paste is very soft, but it actually was quite firm/sticky and took a fair bit of muscle to scoop it out of my pot! LOL
> 
> For what its worth, though, you can be absolutely confident that you have reached the paste stage successfully as soon as your batter is no longer in a liquid state/is impossible to stir, or is firm/solid enough to hold its own shape.
> 
> From your description above, once your batter had 'suddenly' become too hard, I would not even have attempted to stir it. In my opinion, that's a sure sign that you had successfully reached the paste stage at that point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yay!
> 
> For what it's worth, the more olive oil in a liquid soap formula, the more water it will need during dilution to dissolve the paste. I use only 65% OO in mine and can get away with using less water than you needed for yours, which included more OO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks great!
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Thank you so much for your kind words. 

So i use 80% oo which is only 5% more than yours (75% oo recipe) and that is so significant that needs so much more water? very interesting!

In the past, before i tried to make some ls soap and i ve read on a blog that paste needs to be hard enough, with painfull stirring till the end if we want to get clear soap. Now i think thats completely wrong... But as you said, could the zap indicate that the paste is ready? Or zap is only notification for lye heavy soap? Or both?
Just a thought...

Of course i have to thank except IrishLass, and other members that participate on the topic from its beginning. Especially DeeAnna, Susie and kchaystack.


----------



## Susie

OK, having just come from another soapmaking group and having this same discussion, let me summarize here:

There is no need, whatsoever, to stir liquid soap paste past emulsification.  Once you hit emulsification, you can safely put the lid on and walk away.  You do not need to cook, you do not need to stir it to death.  Lid it and walk away.  Come back when you think about it.  Minutes (mine is normally 15-30 minutes later), hours, or days.  If it is paste and gelled, it is ready for a zap test.  If it does not zap, it is ready to dilute.  Period.  No clarification test is going to tell you if the soap is safe.  Only zap testing does that.  If your soap fails to be clear, it is more likely due to the oils you used.

Those people on those videos make me think of the old Rice Krispie Treat commercials where the mom goes into the kitchen and acts like it was SO VERY DIFFICULT to make those treats.  I just do not comprehend why people want to make this more difficult than it needs to be.


----------



## IrishLass

hlecter said:


> Thank you so much for your kind words.
> 
> So i use 80% oo which is only 5% more than yours (75% oo recipe) and that is so significant that needs more water? very interesting!


 
You'd be surprised how much different quantities of certain oils can affect dilution! lol 



hlecter said:


> In the past, before i tried to make some ls soap and i ve read on a blog that it needs to be hard enough, with painfull stirring till the end if we want to get clear soap. Now i think thats wrong...


 
Where clarity is concerned, stirring technique does not matter. What matters is the type of fats used. Those alone will dictate whether one ends up with a clear soap or not. For example- if you use fats that contain lots of stearic acid such as cocoa butter or tallow, etc.. you will end up with a cloudy or opaque soap, no matter how long or short you stirred to the paste stage, or how hard or soft your paste is. 

As a matter of fact, with the right kind of oils, you can end up with a perfectly clear soap even if the paste is cloudy or opaque. When I make my OO formula with part water and part glycerin as my KOH solution, my paste turns out on the softer side and it looks like opaque vanilla pudding, but it dilutes into perfectly clear liquid soap.



hlecter said:


> could the zap indicate that the paste is ready?


 Yes- an absence of zap in the paste means it's ready to dilute whenever you feel like diluting.



hlecter said:


> Or zap is only notification for lye heavy soap? Or both?


 
Both.  It could also mean that the soap needs more time to cure (especially if it is a young soap, or an un-gelled soap)


IrishLass 

*Edited to add*: Ditto what Susie just said^^^^. I was still writing as she was posting (as often happens) lol


----------



## hlecter

I added 1% FO to the batch i made last days.

First i mix it well with equal amounts of PS80 following IrishLass method.
Soap became a little bit cloudy for some hours. I let it there cause it was bedtime and today morning it is clear again. 
Also it seems that PS80 made the soap a little bit thicker and more lathery, but this is maybe only on my mind, i cant be 100% sure 

Also i am making a new batch right now using olive oil pomace instead of evoo (70% oo pomace, 20% co 10% castor oil). The dilluted soap doesnt seem clear but its not cloudy either... Maybe cause of pomace colour...?


----------



## Susie

I stopped using pomace for that very reason.  I can get regular OO cheaper, and my soap is not cloudy.


----------



## DeeAnna

It isn't necessarily that the PS80 makes the soap thicker -- it could very easily be the scent you added. In some trials I've been doing lately, PS80 may slightly thicken diluted LS, but it's not a big change. I've had much bigger changes due to the scent added. It's wise to test a new FO or EO by adding it to a sample of diluted soap first. Scent can cause the soap to thicken or thin or become grainy, etc.


----------



## Shahtura

With my very limited experience I thought to try to make this GLS soap. I only made CP soap twice and one time HP transparent soap prior to this experiment. To make the long story short I don't like my finished product so here is what I did:

I was trying to replicate the recipe from the beginning of the thread so I melted my oils in my crockpot:
325g OO
125g Co
50g castor oil

I used SBM calculator and figured I needed 106g KOH. I poured 106g distilled water and added 106 g KOH. When the KOH dissolved and the water cleared I added 212 g glicerin  and heated it all together also stirring the solution.

I now poured my lye solution into the crockpot containing my oils and turned off the crockpot. I used my metal shaft SB  ans you can not imagine how happy I was when I saw flying bubbles!

I stopped SB covered the croclpot and left it overnight. On the next morning I checked and found a paste  that was sticky and felt like taffy but unlike IrishLass' , mine was not beautiful gold translucent color. Instead I had 
cloudy, opaque paste in a mustard color . I also didn't see bubbles on top.

I did a zap test and there was no zap so I proceeded to dilute my paste. I weged my paste and prepared my dilution distilled water (75% of paste weight). I used a pot with simmering water and Inside I used a canning jar , as advised, with the paste +dilution water. I have to admit that I didn't use Sodium Lactate because I didn't have it on hand.

When the paste got softer , I used my SB on it.  When I thought I was done I left it hoping to see a clear liquid soap in a few hours. I was very disappointed to see that it never became clear. I will attach a picture of my ugly final product. BTW, It lathers and cleans but not very well.

By now I realize I have made a few mistakes:

1. I contacted my KOH supplier and it turns out that my KOH is 90% pure. In that case I should have used Soapcalc calculator with 90% KOH ticked. Had I done so I would use 111g KOH (5 g extra) and some 15g extra of water/glicerin.

2. Had I not diluted the paste, I could have try to salvage my paste. ( as much as I hate throwing it, I will write it off as a tuition fee)

I would love to hear what should I do different next time in order to make a good clear GLS ?

Thanks in advance, Eyal




IrishLass said:


> You'd be surprised how much different quantities of certain oils can affect dilution! lol
> 
> 
> 
> Where clarity is concerned, stirring technique does not matter. What matters is the type of fats used. Those alone will dictate whether one ends up with a clear soap or not. For example- if you use fats that contain lots of stearic acid such as cocoa butter or tallow, etc.. you will end up with a cloudy or opaque soap, no matter how long or short you stirred to the paste stage, or how hard or soft your paste is.
> 
> As a matter of fact, with the right kind of oils, you can end up with a perfectly clear soap even if the paste is cloudy or opaque. When I make my OO formula with part water and part glycerin as my KOH solution, my paste turns out on the softer side and it looks like opaque vanilla pudding, but it dilutes into perfectly clear liquid soap.
> 
> Yes- an absence of zap in the paste means it's ready to dilute whenever you feel like diluting.
> 
> 
> 
> Both.  It could also mean that the soap needs more time to cure (especially if it is a young soap, or an un-gelled soap)
> 
> 
> IrishLass
> 
> *Edited to add*: Ditto what Susie just said^^^^. I was still writing as she was posting (as often happens) lol


----------



## DeeAnna

Gosh, don't discard the diluted soap -- you CAN fix it. 

I have experimented with adding small amounts of dry KOH directly to diluted soap and it works fine. Stir the KOH into the soap for a minute or two. It might not be obvious when it's fully dissolved, so I just stir "long enough" based on past experience. You'll feel the soap warm up somewhat as you stir and the soap might thicken up some -- so don't be surprised if these things happen.

Cover the container with a loose cover (not tightly capped, so no pressure will build up in the container) and set the soap in a safe out-of-the-way place to saponify. Give the soap two or three days to do its thing -- diluted soap at room temperature will saponify slower than LS paste. You can stir occasionally if you think of it, but it doesn't seem to be too important. I do stir well at the end before checking for zap and I'm very cautious when doing a zap test.

The other alternative is to first dilute the KOH in an equal or greater weight of water and stir that solution into the diluted soap. You'd follow the same drill after that point as with the dry KOH.


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> Gosh, don't discard the diluted soap -- you CAN fix it.
> 
> I have experimented with adding small amounts of dry KOH directly to diluted soap and it works fine. Stir the KOH into the soap for a minute or two. It might not be obvious when it's fully dissolved, so I just stir "long enough" based on past experience. You'll feel the soap warm up somewhat as you stir and the soap might thicken up some -- so don't be surprised if these things happen.
> 
> Cover the container with a loose cover (not tightly capped, so no pressure will build up in the container) and set the soap in a safe out-of-the-way place to saponify. Give the soap two or three days to do its thing -- diluted soap at room temperature will saponify slower than LS paste. You can stir occasionally if you think of it, but it doesn't seem to be too important. I do stir well at the end before checking for zap and I'm very cautious when doing a zap test.
> 
> The other alternative is to first dilute the KOH in an equal or greater weight of water and stir that solution into the diluted soap. You'd follow the same drill after that point as with the dry KOH.



^^^^This!  Follow this exactly, and it will work out fine.  That is one wonderful benefit of liquid soap, you can fix it.

And, by the way, awesome job on a first liquid soap!  You even figured out where you went wrong by yourself!


----------



## IrishLass

Shahtura said:


> I stopped SB covered the croclpot and left it overnight. On the next morning I checked and found a paste that was sticky and felt like taffy but unlike IrishLass' , mine was not beautiful gold translucent color. Instead I had
> cloudy, opaque paste in a mustard color . I also didn't see bubbles on top.


 
No need to worry- whenever I make this recipe using the KOH-dissolving method you used (i.e., mixing the KOH in an equal amount of water, and only then adding the glycerin to the solution), my paste ends up looking much like vanilla pudding- i.e., opaque and creamy/off-white/slightly light yellowish. In comparison, when I make it using the 'Phamacist's Method' of heating the KOH and glycerin together to boiling in order to dissolve the KOH, my paste comes out golden and transluscent.

If you have a few minutes to spare, you can read about my first experience using the KOH dissolving method that you used. It's located in this very same thread on page 11, post 103:  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=452730&postcount=103 




Shahtura said:


> 1. I contacted my KOH supplier and it turns out that my KOH is 90% pure. In that case I should have used Soapcalc calculator with 90% KOH ticked. Had I done so I would use 111g KOH (5 g extra) and some 15g extra of water/glicerin.
> 
> 2. Had I not diluted the paste, I could have try to salvage my paste. ( as much as I hate throwing it, I will write it off as a tuition fee)
> 
> I would love to hear what should I do different next time in order to make a good clear GLS ?
> 
> Thanks in advance, Eyal


 
Ditto 100% what DeeAnna said- don't discard the diluted soap- you can most definitely save it!  The more experience you have making soap, the more you'll be able to see how wonderfully forgiving it can be. As a matter of fact, I would venture to say that about 98%-99% of all problematic batches could be saved if one but knows what caused the problem. 


IrishLass


----------



## Shahtura

Thanks DeeAnna, Susie and IrishLass.  This is such a good news. In my book , throwing oils away is a big crime. I gave myself hard time, thinking that because I proceeded to dilute my paste, it was not possible to save it. Since it was my first time, I wasn't sure something went wrong until after the dilution.

You ladies are my heroes (or is it heroines in correct English?)! Thanks a million.

I can't wait until tomorrow morning so I can go salvage the soap. I will upload a picture once the soap clears.


----------



## DeeAnna

Just take it slow and easy -- you can add a little KOH, see how that works, and then add some more, etc.


----------



## nickbar

On my last batch of GLS soap using IL's recipe  (without adding sodium lactate) the final diluted soap paste came out nice and crystal clear. 

When i scent it using  some lavender EO from 0.5%-1% most times i get some little chunks on the surface of the soap or on the bottle (due to thickening activity of the EO maybe?). 

The problem also remains when i add the EO with an equal amount of PS80... Is there any trick to overcome that? I found that if i add some water after scenting the soap it will get away these annoying things...


----------



## Susie

Lavender EO is a known separation cause.  Not every lavender EO, mind you, but enough that is an automatic suspect when someone says they are having issues.  Try using a different EO and see if you get the same results.

If by, *"I found that if i add some water after scenting the soap it will get away these annoying things..."*, you mean that the lumps go away, then all you have is insufficient dilution water.  Add your tiny bit of water and accept that that is how it is going to be.


----------



## nickbar

Yes the lumps go away with a bit of water addition.
I have  used orange EO and Pine sylvestris EO and they didnt thicken soap, neither thin it. 

Of course there are many kind of them but i usually buy EO only  from one supplier near my town...

Thank you for your reply


----------



## Shahtura

*Bad news and good news*



DeeAnna said:


> Gosh, don't discard the diluted soap -- you CAN fix it.
> 
> I have experimented with adding small amounts of dry KOH directly to diluted soap and it works fine. Stir the KOH into the soap for a minute or two. It might not be obvious when it's fully dissolved, so I just stir "long enough" based on past experience. You'll feel the soap warm up somewhat as you stir and the soap might thicken up some -- so don't be surprised if these things happen.
> 
> Cover the container with a loose cover (not tightly capped, so no pressure will build up in the container) and set the soap in a safe out-of-the-way place to saponify. Give the soap two or three days to do its thing -- diluted soap at room temperature will saponify slower than LS paste. You can stir occasionally if you think of it, but it doesn't seem to be too important. I do stir well at the end before checking for zap and I'm very cautious when doing a zap test.
> 
> The other alternative is to first dilute the KOH in an equal or greater weight of water and stir that solution into the diluted soap. You'd follow the same drill after that point as with the dry KOH.



I will start with the bad news. I have tried to fix my diluted soap paste by adding the missing KOH (6 grams) and waited 3 days while stirring few times.  It passed the zap test but didn't clear at all. I added 5 more grams and waited 3 more days. Still same results.

I guess I have got an ugly soap but it is usable, isn't it?

The good news is that I made last night a new batch. This time I used Soapcalc with 90% KOH from the start. I am diluting it right now but I can see the bottom is clear with bubbles on top. I will upload a picture once it is done. 

I have 3 EO's: eucalyptus, lavender and orange. I heard some lavenders give hard time. should I avoid lavender or make a small trial with it?


----------



## Susie

I would use the orange.  Lavender can be problematic.  

Congratulations on the soap!


----------



## DeeAnna

If your first batch doesn't zap, yes, you can use it. You might find the cloudy material eventually settles to the bottom of the soap or the cloudiness might disappear with temperature change. Regardless, a crystal clear soap is an esthetic issue -- whether clear or cloudy, the soap will clean just fine. 

I agree with Susie -- orange is your best bet for not causing trouble and smelling good to just about everyone. Just to be on the safe side, try it in a small sample of diluted soap first to see if it changes the texture of the soap (thinner, thicker, chunky, etc.) I have never tried eucalyptus in liquid soap, so I can't say whether it changes the texture. I'd think the odor might be a bit overwhelming to me, but everyone's nose is different. Lavender seems to be a troublemaker in liquid soap for many people.


----------



## Susie

I have not tried eucalyptus EO, either.  I hesitate for the same reason-it is absolutely overwhelming to me except in the smallest concentrations in bar soap.  I have some EO, and I use very tiny amounts in CP fragrance blends only.


----------



## Sapo

Just made an eucalyptus, scented at 2%. It's pretty sweet to me.


----------



## hlecter

Most of the time lavender EO caused trouble to my gls.  But when i used  pine sylvestris EO and orange EO there wasnt any problem. Both of them didnt thin or thicken soap.


----------



## Soaps_and_more

*Thank you!*

Dears!

I joined SMF to be able to thank you all!
Especially of course IrishLass! You are wonderful!!!

I have made 2 batches of liquid soap before finding your recipe. The first one, well, I guess the numbers were not right, I actually used the glycerin method but got the percentages wrong. Its is a soap but there are no bubbles. Well, that got to be some cleaning soap.

Then I read, re-read and studied the book of Jackie Thompson. Personally I find it requires a lot of different chemicals, testing, probing ... which is not per se a bad thing, but makes me lose my interest. 
So that resulted in a soap that was like water. Also a good soap, but I am stubborn, I want it a thick liquid and then be able to dilute.
Some more cleaning soap ...


Then I read your ingenious method.
Couldn't really believe it. What? 10 minutes? and then leave it without heat?
What about those people that stir for 6 hours and then hope for the best?
Stressing about this phase and that?


Thank you!
Your method worked wonderfully!
I thank you from the bottom of my heart!

I see myself making a ton of wonderful liquid soap and loving it!
You are the best.
I especially admire your patience!


----------



## IrishLass

Yay! That makes my day!  I'm always so very happy any time someone puts it to the test and discovers the beauty of the simplicity of liquid soap-making.  So many folks over-complicate it, which is very unfortunate.....and very unnecessary. I wish I could take credit for the recipe that I posted and for the ingenious method, but I'm nothing more than a humble messenger (although a very enthusiastic one at that!) 


IrishLass


----------



## penelopejane

I haven't made liquid soap yet but my DH likes the foaming bottles. I can't get them to last longer than 1 refil before they don't work as Foamers regardless of the dilution. 

Is there a good type of bottle to use or do you just use standard pump bottles with handmade liquid soap?


----------



## Shahtura

*May I dilute in the crockpot?*



IrishLass said:


> Welcome to the forum, Sweet_Vivi! :wave:
> 
> I completely understand your concern, but there's no need to worry- it actually looks and sounds like things are progressing along in the same way as they normally do for me. Here is a pic of my soap taken at the very same stage as yours is now (I use canning jars to dilute because I don't have a designated soap crockpot):



May I boil the dilution water and pour it over my paste in the crockpot instead of using a double boiler with a canning jar?


----------



## IrishLass

Certainly! Just make sure to cover your crockpot. 


IrishLass


----------



## biarine

IrishLass said:


> Yay! That makes my day!  I'm always so very happy any time someone puts it to the test and discovers the beauty of the simplicity of liquid soap-making.  So many folks over-complicate it, which is very unfortunate.....and very unnecessary. I wish I could take credit for the recipe that I posted and for the ingenious method, but I'm nothing more than a humble messenger (although a very enthusiastic one at that!)
> 
> 
> IrishLass




You and other soapers is inspiration to start soaping. I had my doubt before even though I watched many video in you tube. To be a member here years ago inspired me to make my first batch of soap.


----------



## nickbar

This time i decided to make some gls as usual using 85% purity of KOH from my supplier.
I  used soapee.com for my calculations checking 85% purity for Lye, 25%  coconut oil, 65% olive oil and 10% castor, 3% superfat. I dissolved Lye to equal  amount of water and added the remaining "water" amount as glycerin,  using in the end about 79% water of paste weight to dilute following IrishLass recipe on the first pages of the thread. All went as planned and i checked the final pH of the soap and it was about 11.6!
On previous batches using the same recipe, but 90% KOH purity the pH was 9,5...So could it be  that difference in pH due to the purity of the Lye and the extra amount you have to add when using a lower lye purity instead of a higher (90% for example) ? I suppose my soap will be safe to use as it didnt zap as paste...

Thank you!


----------



## ngian

Hello nickbar. What is the method that you are using to get the pH readings and with what equipment?


----------



## nickbar

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005KGKCRA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I know its not a professional equipment but here is the pH-meter i use for 1-14 range. I first calibrate it with a buffer solution came in the package. 

 I also verify my results with some solutions i have and i know 100% their pH values.


----------



## Susie

Did you use the same equipment to measure both soaps?  

The purity of the lye should not affect the pH of the finished soap, as it should be balanced by the amount of oils, as determined by the superfat.

However, as long as that paste did not zap, you have safe soap.  

I would, just out of curiosity, give the soap a few days, then retest.


----------



## nickbar

yes same equipment tested both.

Are there big differences on the pH after few days from production date?


----------



## ngian

The only difference I can think of is that if the paste is exposed to our slightly acidic atmosphere for a few days, it could slightly drop its pH. 

The thing I don't know for sure is if the slightly change in superfat amount can change the pH readings. 
I guess you are making 1% soap solution (1gr soap to 99gr distilled water), in order to get the pH readings.


----------



## nickbar

ngian said:


> The only difference I can think of is that if the paste is exposed to our slightly acidic atmosphere for a few days, it could slightly drop its pH.
> 
> The thing I don't know for sure is if the slightly change in superfat amount can change the pH readings.
> I guess you are making 1% soap solution (1gr soap to 99gr distilled water), in order to get the pH readings.



Thank you nikos for your answer!

I think that slightly changes on SF can change the pH, but maybe someone else can help on that as i am not sure....
Anyway... 

I dont understand your last sentence!! I read the pH by immersing it into the solution i want to take measure ( shampoo, liquid soap, cream, whatever) and wait until the display stabilizes...


----------



## Dahila

Nick bar you weight 1 g of paste and dissolve it in 99 grams of distilled water, after dissolving check your ph.  This is what he means.


----------



## Susie

Dahila said:


> Nick bar you weight 1 g of paste and dissolve it in 99 grams of distilled water, after dissolving check your ph.  This is what he means.



This is the proper way to measure pH of soap.  Sticking the meter down in regular soap will not give proper results.


----------



## DeeAnna

There are good reasons why sticking a pH probe into a concentrated product is not going to give accurate, repeatable results. But let's not get into the theory. Instead, prove it to yourself -- 

Make samples of product diluted with water. Let's say you're testing soap. One sample is the original soap paste. Soap paste has some water in it so ideally you should know the % of pure soap in the paste. The second sample is 75% pure soap and 25% distilled water (this might not apply with soap paste, because soap paste might already be at this dilution). Third is 50% pure soap and 50% distilled water. Fourth is 25% pure soap and 75% distilled water. And last is 1%  pure soap and 99% distilled water. Allow the temperature of the solutions to come to room temperature if they are not. Measure the pH of all solutions.

Is it the same in all samples? If not, how does the pH change with dilution? 

Industry standard tests for pH use a 1% solution or a 10% solution of soap in distilled water at 20 degrees C (68 F). It doesn't matter which dilution you use -- 1% or 10% -- as long as you're consistent.

Fats should not affect the pH since they are not water soluble and are non-polar molecules, thus should have no intrinsic effect on pH. Fatty acids can affect the pH, however, being polar molecules and able to dissociate (break apart) to some extent in water.


----------



## Dahila

DeeAnna you are a jewel, do you know that?  I was wondering how to explain that fats have nothing to do with ph but lack of my language skill stopped me thanks


----------



## nickbar

I had no idea about measuring pH on a 1% soap paste solution. Of course i will try that from now on...


Really helpful your post as always DeeAnna. Thank you!!


----------



## Dian

*What went wrong?*

Hello. Another LS newbie here. My first time.

I tried Soaping 101 Liquid Glycerin Castile Soap recipe today. I did everything like she had in the video on YouTube. From the beginning it didn't seem like it behaved as the video showed.

Everything worked well up to mixing the lye to the oils. I heated the glycerin to 200d F as she (Catherine?) sugessted. Actually it was more like 250d F. Then I added the KOH. It sputtered and fizzed. I took it off the heat until it calmed down. And just kept mixing until everything dissolved. Took about 7-8 minutes.  

The problem started when I added the lye mix to the oils. It got very cloudy and never cleared up. Even after 10 minutes of SB (my SB got so hot I finally had to stop. I couldn't hold it anymore) I never reached the translucent stage. It puffed up and got taffy like, but not the translucence.

Then I let it cook for 1.5 hours. Still very runny and taffy like. Not translucent, it was milky colored. And not a paste. So I covered and tried another 30 minutes. Still milky colored and like hot loose taffy/caramel.

When I tried to dissolve the "paste" to see if it at least was done with the cook, I couldn't get the soap to dissolve all the way. I eventually ended up using 5g soap & 10g water. The water was cloudy at first but when I left it to sit for a few minutes, it cleared up. It had a slight brown tint to the water but it was clear.

So, even if this isn't paste, should I consider this done? I'm still cooking it. I think I will for at least another hour to see if it starts to thicken up.

My recipe:
Olive Oil = 13 oz (81.25%)
Coconut = 1.5 oz (9.35%)
Castor = 1.5 oz (9.35%)
KOH = 3.35 oz (3%)
Glycerin = 10.05 oz (25% Lye Solution Strength)

Thank you. I appreciate any hints or help on this.


----------



## Susie

My hint/tip is to look at post 8 of this thread and follow IrishLass' recipe.  I would also read the remainder of the thread if you have not thus far.  It will make you feel lots better when you realize that most of us had problems with that recipe on YouTube.

If your soap has not thickened up by now, it is not going to.  Or maybe it will once you allow it to cool.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

jenfrat said:


> hello!  I have a bunch of people asking me to make liquid soap, so i'd like to give it a try.  I was watching soaping 101's youtube video and noticed that she used glycerin instead of water to make it.  I understand that it speeds up the process considerably, but does it also contribute to the thickness?  Any other online resources or video's you recommend?  I just got catherine failor's book, so i'll be giving that a read as well. Thanks!


bump


----------



## simhale

Hi, 
I was wondering if glycerin is considered a natural product?
could glycerin liquid soap sell as natural liquid soap or would that be misleading?
Thanks!


----------



## IrishLass

Welcome simhale! :wave:

Glycerin/glycerol is actually a natural by-product of saponification. In other words, when a strong lye solution is mixed with oils/fats, aka triglycerides/esters of fatty acids (notice from the word triglyceride that glycerin is already present in the fats), a chemical reaction occurs (saponification) which splits the bonds of the esters into a salt (from the lye) and glycerol (from the fats)- what we know as soap. 

Glycerin/glycerol can be extracted from soap by grating up the soap and mixing it with a concentrated salt water solution and applying heat. Eventually, the soap will separate into curds of pure soap, which float to the surface and can be scooped off, while the glycerin and salt remain behind.


HTH!
IrishLass


----------



## smengot0

Hello everyone. Last week I made IL's creamy Shea/cocoa butter GLS. I do believe it came out well. But when I gave it for testing by family and friends they all complained it was not bubbly enough. I did use IL same exact recipe ditto dilution rates. I was 100% copy-cat[emoji4]


----------



## smengot0

smengot0 said:


> Hello everyone. Last week I made IL's creamy Shea/cocoa butter GLS. I do believe it came out well. But when I gave it for testing by family and friends they all complained it was not bubbly enough. I did use IL same exact recipe ditto dilution rates. I was 100% copy-cat[emoji4]





Pix


----------



## smengot0

Can I use Lathanol (LAL) to increase bubbles?


----------



## cmzaha

The glycerin will hinder lather some, but I do like her recipe. Make a LS without using the glycerin method it will tend to lather more. Are they using a bath pouf? IL's recipe with bubble up great on a bath pouf, the same as any handmade soap


----------



## smengot0

Thanks cmzaha. I don't think she used a bath pouf. It was bubbly for me. But since I plan to sell later, I must try to get positive feedback.


----------



## IrishLass

I've never used any added surfactants to it, but I suppose you could try it with a small portion to test it out. 

I just did some looking around to see what I could find out about adding it to liquid soap, and I noticed that WSP uses LAL/SLSa in a liquid bubble bath recipe on their site. They measure it out into a large glass measuring cup and then pour the bubble bath base over it (on a scale to weigh it) and mix together with a whisk. Sounds simple enough, but use a mask/respirator, though- I hear that LAL/SLSa is pretty airborne when dry and you don't want to breathe in any of it. WSP uses 4 tablespoons LAL/SLSa per every 32 oz. of bubble bath base. 

If it were me, I would first use a pouf (like Carolyn suggested) before deciding to add any surfactants to it, but for what its worth, if I were ever to add any LAL/SLSa, I would try it out on 4 oz. of the soap, using a conservative 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. to start.

I personally find that my soap bubbles up quite nicely, but then again- I only use it at the sink for washing hands- because I'm quite partial to using only my bar soap in the shower. 

Did you add any of the stearic to your cocoa/shea soap? I ask because from your picture it looks like mine does without it. 


IrishLass


----------



## smengot0

Yes IL, I did use stearic acid. 3% of finished paste weight. I plan to try the LAL in a small portion. Thanks all


----------



## smengot0

IrishLass said:


> I've never used any added surfactants to it, but I suppose you could try it with a small portion to test it out.
> 
> I just did some looking around to see what I could find out about adding it to liquid soap, and I noticed that WSP uses LAL/SLSa in a liquid bubble bath recipe on their site. They measure it out into a large glass measuring cup and then pour the bubble bath base over it (on a scale to weigh it) and mix together with a whisk. Sounds simple enough, but use a mask/respirator, though- I hear that LAL/SLSa is pretty airborne when dry and you don't want to breathe in any of it. WSP uses 4 tablespoons LAL/SLSa per every 32 oz. of bubble bath base.
> 
> If it were me, I would first use a pouf (like Carolyn suggested) before deciding to add any surfactants to it, but for what its worth, if I were ever to add any LAL/SLSa, I would try it out on 4 oz. of the soap, using a conservative 1/4 to 1/2 tsp. to start.
> 
> I personally find that my soap bubbles up quite nicely, but then again- I only use it at the sink for washing hands- because I'm quite partial to using only my bar soap in the shower.
> 
> Did you add any of the stearic to your cocoa/shea soap? I ask because from your picture it looks like mine does without it.
> 
> 
> IrishLass





See pictures. First was after I removed it from the hot water (post dilution. Then 4 hours later) ......stearic acid doing its thing lol

 AND


----------



## NitaB

*My soap turned clouding in the bottle*

Hi, I am new to the boards. I made the liquid soap based on the video. Here is what I didn't do: let it warm over night, my crockpot was too small, so I warmed it on the stove; some of my ingredients were a bit past the expiration date, but I wanted to try the recipe. This was my 1st time making liquid soap. my bars are great. But I think my ingredients could have been the problem. It still lathers, but I will let I cure for a few weeks... any suggestions would be great. Thank for your time!!!!


----------



## Susie

Liquid soap does not need to cure like bar soap.  Have you diluted it?  And did you follow the original recipe in the video, or did you read down and follow another recipe/method?

If you followed the recipe in the video, read down to post #8, and follow IrishLass' recipe/method.  It makes awesome soap, and is oh, so much better and easier!


----------



## NitaB

Thanks for the response! I will check out the other recipe!


----------



## biarine

IrishLass said:


> I've been using the glycerin method to make my liquid soap for 2 years now and I really love it. I have 2 different formulas that I use and I dilute them in such a way that they both come out nice and thick (as thick as honey). The cool thing with the glycerin method (from what I've been told from those that use Failor's method) is that you have better control over the thickness of your finished soap with the glycerin method. I've never used Failor's method, but I can vouch that it's not hard at all to get a thick liquid soap with the glycerin method. Over at the Dish forum they have a _looooooong_ glycerin liquid soap thread (it's a huge thread with a bazillion pages....well, maybe not a gazillion, but close enough! lol), and that's where I learned how to make it.
> 
> I make mine differently than Susie. I dissolve my lye in glycerin. Basically, I mix the KOH and glycerin when they are both at room temp, bring them to a boil together, and simmer and stir until all the lye is dissolved and all is clear. It takes less than 10 minutes for me. Some people heat the glycerin before adding the KOH, but that can cause sputtering and hissing, so that's why I do it the way I do (which goes very smoothly for me). Then I dump the lye/glycerin solution into my pre-melted oils and whisk the mixture (off heat) until I see tiny little bubbles flying/floating up in the air around my head (about 10 to 12 minutes max). Then I cover (still off heat) and leave it alone to let it do it's thing while I busy myself with other things. Usually, in about 6 hours, it's paste. Then I dilute with only enough water as needed to get it to the thickness I like. That's just a bare-bones outline of my procedure, but I can be more detailed if you wish.
> 
> 
> IrishLass




Sorry IrishLass but I need to ask as I am newbie in LS. Are you using whisk not stick blender? And you don't cook for 4 hours or until it saponified? I need to try this method. Because mine I used stick blender and I cook it for 4-5 hours.


----------



## IrishLass

biarine said:


> Sorry IrishLass but I need to ask as I am newbie in LS. Are you using whisk not stick blender? And you don't cook for 4 hours or until it saponified? I need to try this method. Because mine I used stick blender and I cook it for 4-5 hours.


 
Sometimes I use a whisk, and sometimes I use a stick-blender (depends on my mood)- either one will work perfectly fine.

I don't cook until saponified- there's absolutely no need to cook at all. I just whisk or stickblend (off the heat) until it's emulsified or at a very light trace, which is usually (but not necessarily always) accompanied by the appearance of tiny bubbles floating up from the pot into the air, then I cover my pot and walk away, leaving it to saponify to the paste stage all on its own. 

It's a wonderfully simple method.


IrishLass


----------



## CassieLouisa

*Storing Paste*

8 ) When it's paste, I spoon out little globs of it from a couple of different areas of the pot and apply the tongue test to check for zap. Some people use pheno drops, but I'm kinda partial to the tongue test. It's accurate, instantaneous, easy, and best of all I don't have to shell out any money for it. lol If it doesn't zap, I proceed to the next step- dilution. So far, I've never had a GLS batch zap on me yet, but if i did, I'd just let it sit for ahile longer and test again.

I will have to write my diluting procedure in the next post (below) since I've exceeded my word limit for this post. 

 IrishLass:

I'm new to liquid soapmaking and I love this recipe and love your instructions. I'm wondering if you dilute all your paste at the same time or if you store it and dilute it in small batches? I've heard you can store it and I've also heard it needs to be diluted in one batch. Can you please advise?


----------



## IrishLass

CassieLouisa said:


> IrishLass:
> 
> I'm new to liquid soapmaking and I love this recipe and love your instructions. I'm wondering if you dilute all your paste at the same time or if you store it and dilute it in small batches? I've heard you can store it and I've also heard it needs to be diluted in one batch. Can you please advise?


 

Hi CassieLouisa :wave: ,

I only dilute parts of it at a time and store the rest of the paste in a Ziploc bag in the fridge until needed.


IrishLass


----------



## Susie

I keep mine in the fridge, also.  Not that it needs refrigeration, IMHO, no more than bar soap would.  But I keep losing it if it not in the fridge.  That's why I date the Ziploc bag.


----------



## CassieLouisa

Irishlass,

I may have overmixed my batch. I followed your recipe using the soap calculator from meadow bee and I stick blended maybe for too long. Right now the batch is covered and I'm letting it sit but it was a mousse type consistency when I stopped and left it. I did see the tiny bubbles for a moment but the consistency didn't seem solid enough so I kept on blending. When I took my blender out and tried some of the paste - mousse - it is a very nice texture and lathering already. Do you think it will be okay if I let it sit or did I ruin it by overmixing?


----------



## IrishLass

Hi Cassie!

Be encouraged- you did not ruin it.  The fact that it is lathering tells me that all is well. Liquid soap paste is very forgiving. It's hard to ruin it, even if you set out to try. 

When you see the flying bubbles, you do not have to keep mixing. They are just a visual confirmation that the batter has reached a good emulsification. At that point you can just cover it and walk away even though it's not solid yet. As it sits, it will saponify/grow more solid all on its own over the next few hours without any further help.

At this point, since it is lathering, I would check for zap. If there is none, you can go ahead and dilute if you desire. If it does zap- just let it sit for longer and check again later. 

By the way, once it is zapless you can wait for as long as you desire before you dilute. There's no rush to do it right away or anything like that. It'll wait patiently until you are ready. Just keep it covered. 


IrishLass


----------



## CassieLouisa

IrishLass you are too kind! This is my very first batch of  liquid glycerin soap. I've been studying it, reading about it, watching tutorials, and going over many step by step instructions. They are all slightly different. Some soapers insist on leaving mixture on heat but that seems even more complicated. 
I've been wanting to try the glycerin recipe for awhile now but I've been nervous that it would fail. This batch was 20 ounces of oil which is quite perfect for me.
I know this kind of soap making is ambitious but I am determined to make soap that I like!
If you say I can let it sit for as long as I'd like now I'm going to consider what fragrances to add and whether I need a thickener and maybe colors.
And next on my list is body lotions and creams!
Again thank you for your guidance and great advice - and especially for your wisdom. I remember how many batches of fudge I made before I got it just perfect !


----------



## CassieLouisa

This is a photo of the "cross section" of my batch.


----------



## biarine

CassieLouisa said:


> This is a photo of the "cross section" of my batch.




Congrats


----------



## CassieLouisa

IrishLass said:


> Okay- to continue.......
> 
> To dilute, I use Carrie's canning jar method. It's easy and it prevents evaporation as your're diluting:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it okay to just dilute the paste in the crockpot? Warm the paste till it's liquid then add the water and let it do its thing in the crockpot - with the cover on?
> 
> The whole canning jar thing is a little too involved for me and I'm only diluting enough for my own use.


----------



## IrishLass

CassieLouisa said:


> IrishLass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay- to continue.......
> 
> To dilute, I use Carrie's canning jar method. It's easy and it prevents evaporation as your're diluting:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it okay to just dilute the paste in the crockpot? Warm the paste till it's liquid then add the water and let it do its thing in the crockpot - with the cover on?
> 
> The whole canning jar thing is a little too involved for me and I'm only diluting enough for my own use.
Click to expand...

 
I've only ever used the canning method myself, but lots of folks dilute in their crockpot, so I would say certainly- by all means. I would not heat the paste on it's own first without any water, though. That sounds like it's asking for trouble. To get a head-start on things, I would separately heat the dilution water to boiling instead, and pour it over the waiting paste inside the crockpot before beginning to cook/heat the paste.

Do you know that you can even dilute without cooking or heating at all? It'll take a few days, but it can be done from what others tell me. I'll be trying it with my next batch.


IrishLass


----------



## CassieLouisa

IrishLass said:


> Do you know that you can even dilute without cooking or heating at all? It'll take a few days, but it can be done from what others tell me. I'll be trying it with my next batch.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



I've read about that - just put the paste in a jar and let it do its thing! I'm not ready for that just yet! I am at work though and can't wait to get home and start my new batch with babassu oil!

What is a good volume of oils to do for a batch? Last time I did 20 ounces and that was almost too small for me. 32? 40?


----------



## IrishLass

A good volume to make is whatever works for you and your needs.  For what it's worth, I only ever do 1lb batches at a time when I make my liquid soap paste, which is plenty enough to keep us in diluted soap for a few months with paste enough leftover to spare (which I store in the fridge). I make it for just our own household and a few of our other family members/friends, and since we only use it for washing hands, we don't go through gobs of it at a time like we would if we all showered/bathed with it. 


IrishLass


----------



## CassieLouisa

I was so excited to get home and make my babassu soap I made a major mess up. The soapcalc calculator defaults to "percent of water to oils" at 38 percent. In my haste I didn't change this and my KOH would NOT dissolve with my glycerin. It was a white thick and sloppy mess. I was ready to throw it out and start over when I realized what had happened. I quickly added the additional glycerin to my pot, cooked it till all the lumps were dissolved but it was definitely not going to be clear. It's a brown sugar/amber color but I added it to my oils anyway.

This one has to go in the trash - maybe next time I'll double check my soapcalc ratios!


----------



## DeeAnna

I would personally not have used the brown KOH-glycerin mixture. I would be very, very uncomfortable with that idea, because you are soaping with a glycerin mixture that has degraded from excess heat and strong alkali.

There are good reasons why people are not advocating using this method as much as they did at first, and you have just found out one of the reasons why. I would discard this soap.

Dissolving the KOH in and equal or greater weight of water is much easier and safer and the resulting soap is plenty fine.


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> I would personally not have used the brown KOH-glycerin mixture. I would be very, very uncomfortable with that idea, because you are soaping with a glycerin mixture that has degraded from excess heat and strong alkali.
> 
> There are good reasons why people are not advocating using this method as much as they did at first, and you have just found out one of the reasons why. I would discard this soap.
> 
> Dissolving the KOH in and equal or greater weight of water is much easier and safer and the resulting soap is plenty fine.



^^^^This!

I use either an equal weight of KOH to water or half the water weight in water, then the remainder in glycerin added to the oils.  I would never have used the brown KOH/glycerin, either.


----------



## CassieLouisa

Susie said:


> ^^^^This!
> 
> I use either an equal weight of KOH to water or half the water weight in water, then the remainder in glycerin added to the oils. I would never have used the brown KOH/glycerin, either.


 
Sorry if I offended anyone - I'll toss the whole batch.



DeeAnna said:


> I would personally not have used the brown KOH-glycerin mixture. I would be very, very uncomfortable with that idea, because you are soaping with a glycerin mixture that has degraded from excess heat and strong alkali.
> 
> There are good reasons why people are not advocating using this method as much as they did at first, and you have just found out one of the reasons why. I would discard this soap.
> 
> Dissolving the KOH in and equal or greater weight of water is much easier and safer and the resulting soap is plenty fine.


 
I'm new to LS -- it was an honest mistake. But I'm tossing it.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I don't think that anyone is offended. But the thoughts and responses to this method is covered in the two main ls threads - there are better options. 

Maybe that's where some frustration (rather than offense) is there - the information is there for all to read and has been linked to and pointed out. When someone insists on using a method with more potential for problems and then has problems.............it could be frustrating for all


----------



## Susie

I am not offended.  But I have tried to use that burned glycerin/KOH.  It stunk and had to be thrown away anyway.


----------



## DeeAnna

I was also not offended -- I was really worried.

My earlier post was worded as low-key as I could manage at the time, given that I was extremely concerned about your decision to use the brown KOH-glycerin mixture.


----------



## biarine

In my opinion just throw the burned glycerin/koh. I did made mistake 4 years ago when I am newly soaper, I burned my milk but instead of  throwing it and re-done again, instead I still continued and it looks good and smell nice. I let it cure for 6 weeks and I put the soap into my tray where I put all my cured soap. Then 3 months later, I wanted to use it and I check the soap in  my horror the white soap turn yellowish brown the scent it's still ok but the look was awful. It goes into bin and I learned my lesson . I wasted my essential oil. Beautiful scent my mock Carnation ( blend of geranium, black pepper and ylang ylang)


----------



## Irishboy

*Super excited*

It has taken the best part of three days to read all the posts in this thread. I had read Jackie Thompson "liquid soap making" book and it was daunting to say the least. 

Anyhow about an hour ago I simply couldn't wait any longer and decided to heck with it, try IL method and see what happens.

My recipe ran through SB as follows 

10.50 oz OO
6.30 oz coconut oil
3.15 oz castor oil
0.52 oz Shea butter
0.52 oz cocoa butter
4.51 oz Potassium Hydroxide 90% pure
13.52 oz glycerine 

I melted the oils until liquid in my crock pot.

I added the Potassium Hydroxide to the glycerine and gently heated until clear (about 230f reached)

I added this to my crock pot and wisked by hand quite vigorously and in about 3 mins bubbles where floating above my head. I couldn't believe it would be that quick so continued to wick for about another 2 mins, the liquid went from clear to sudsy. 

I stopped at this point and put the lid on. The mix is very liquid and the crock feels quite warm. 

I'm pacing the floor like an expantant father, I'm panicing that I have destroyed it as it's sudsy but super excited that it actually happened so quickly and tomorrow when I wake up (if I can sleep at all) there might just be soap in the pot.

Thank you everyone especially IL, Susisie and Deedena (sorry about the spelling).

I am in Ireland and thought Irishboy was appropriate in tribute to Irish Lass, hope that's ok!


----------



## IrishLass

Welcome Irishboy! :wave: I feel honored by your tribute!

Don't worry- you haven't destroyed your soap. If the crock is still on, though, I would turn it off. No need for it to be on at this point. It will saponify nicely on its own to the paste stage without any added heat.


IrishLass


----------



## Irishboy

*Loving it*

Thanks Irish Lass, today I diluted it and it's really lovely to use, there is layer of foaming Creaming stuff on the top, do I skim that off and discard or will it go away after a few days.

I have ordered some polysorbate 80 to dissolve my EO, do you hand mix the fragrance in our stick blend?

Thanks again for the fantastic thread and all the knowledge within.


----------



## IrishLass

The foam/cream on top is just soap paste that hasn't dissolved all the way yet for either lack of time or for lack of enough dilution water. If it is time-related, it should dissolve within a few days time if you just let it sit. If you find that it's still there without any change after a few days, then it's most likely water related. In that case you can either add a teensy bit more water at a time (with periods of rest in between) until it fully dissolves, or if you are impatient and it's not a whole lot of foam/cream, you can just scoop it off and set it in a little bowl by the sink to wash your hands with (instead of tossing it). 

When I add my fragrance, I just stir it in by hand.


IrishLass


----------



## Irishboy

Does anyone know an approximate PH of the finished soap based on IL's recipe, I ask because to add a natural preservative but it dosent work over PH5.5 and I know regular soap is usually much higher.

I don't have a meter so wonder if anyone has checked their PH when diluted?

Thanks


----------



## Zany_in_CO

When I diluted a gallon of liquid soap today, the pH was alkaline -- pH 10.5. I'm happy with that because nasties won't grow in that environment!  Preservatives are formulated for lotions & potions that have an acidic pH, with pH 7 being neutral. A preservative for products of pH 5.5 added to your LS may react negatively. TIP: Best not to use preservatives unless you are knowledgeable about how they behave in any given environment.


----------



## biarine

Zany_in_CO said:


> When I diluted a gallon of liquid soap today, the pH was alkaline -- pH 10.5. I'm happy with that because nasties won't grow in that environment!  Preservatives are formulated for lotions & potions that have an acidic pH, with pH 7 being neutral. A preservative for products of pH 5.5 added to your LS may react negatively. TIP: Best not to use preservatives unless you are knowledgeable about how they behave in any given environment.




In your experience Zany how long it took before the liquid soap become bad? Thank you.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

biarine said:


> In your experience Zany how long it took before the liquid soap become bad? Thank you.


Never. I actually found a 4 oz bottle of shampoo I made in 2010 when I was cleaning out my soaping closet. Smelled nice. I'm using it now. It's better than when it was first made.


----------



## Irishboy

*Ph and shelf life*

Thanks Zany, Biarine 

Now it's really really early days, but my goal is to launch a great organic liquid soap (not a bottle of chemicals from the lab) and of course shelf life is a major concern.

I want to keep it as natural as possible and if I do need to add antioxidants or preservatives these must be nature based.

I read a lot about the fact that the soap is high ph and therefore hostile to any bacterial growth but just wanted to ask out loud the question.

I was worried about the base oils going rancid but if they haven't in several years I guess  

Many thanks for your valued knowledge.

Andrew


----------



## biarine

Zany_in_CO said:


> Never. I actually found a 4 oz bottle of shampoo I made in 2010 when I was cleaning out my soaping closet. Smelled nice. I'm using it now. It's better than when it was first made.




Really? Wow that's awesome.


----------



## DeeAnna

For liquid soap and other products with high pH, your only preservative options are Liquid Germall Plus, Glydant Plus, and Suttocide. See http://www.makingskincare.com/preservatives/


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Irishboy said:


> ...my goal is to launch a great organic liquid soap (not a bottle of chemicals from the lab) and of course shelf life is a major concern. I want to keep it as natural as possible and if I do need to add antioxidants or preservatives these must be nature based.


Hi Andrew,
I like the way you think. Keep in mind that* fully-saponified soap requires no preservative.*  Dr. Bronner's and Vermont Soap are two examples of companies that have been around for a very long time and use no preservative or other chemicals in their products. Dr. Bronner's gained popularity back in the Hippie Days and continues to make excellent all natural products today. The labels are fun to read!!! Link:

https://shop.drbronner.com/

Vermont Soap lists "Rosemary Extract Preservative," but technically ROE not a preservative, but rather an *antioxidant* that helps to extend shelf life.  To use, find a source that carries ROE "Rosemary Oleoresin Extract" and follow the manufacturer's recommendation for use rate. Add to oils before adding the lye solution. (I add it to oils when the container is first opened)  Link:

http://vermontsoap.com/about-our-soap/our-ingredients/



Irishboy said:


> I  read a lot about the fact that the soap is high ph and therefore  hostile to any bacterial growth but just wanted to ask out loud the  question.


It's an excellent question. Susan Barclay Nichols (swift crafty monkey) wrote a detailed article about the use of ROE in bath and body products. You can download it for your files here:

FORMULATING WITH ROSEMARY EXTRACT     https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwPE22k1fTp6N2k4M1dsTGNlY28/view



Irishboy said:


> I was worried about the base oils going rancid but if they haven't in several years I guess


If you are referring to my shampoo, I think I should mention that I used a bit of rosin in that particular formula. There are also some essential oils that have "preservative qualities" that you can use to fragrance liquid soap.


> ROSIN saponifies much like an oil but without any resulting glycerin. It gives a smooth cold cream finish to the lather and also acts as a detergent and preservative. Calculate - Rosin has the same SAP value as Wheat Germ Oil. (NOTE: May cause contact dermatitis in sensitive individuals).


HTH   :bunny:​


----------



## Bisbeesoap

I am so pleased to see this thread is still active. I just searched through the first 50 pages looking for an answer for my issue, and I didn't find it. I suppose it was on page 51? 

I made a very small test batch of liquid soap paste yesterday, using the informative posts and recipe from IrishLass, and it all went beautifully. I diluted my paste today (at 1:.75, soap:water), and it's exactly the consistency and clarity I was hoping for. Only one problem. It's drying to my skin. The paste zap tested fine, so I don't believe it's lye heavy. Can anyone offer any suggestions as to why it would be drying?

My recipe:

Olive Oil (Pomace)
6.50 oz

Coconut Oil (76 degree)
2.50 oz

Castor Oil
1.00 oz


Potassium Hydroxide
2.10 oz

Glycerin
6.31	oz

I used the summer bee advanced calculator, dissolved the potassium hydroxide in glycerine over heat until it was crystal clear. I believe that's all the pertinent information.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Hi Bisbee, I didn't check your formula, but I've found that liquid soap can be drying at first... give it a couple of weeks and then see what you think.


----------



## DeeAnna

I am disheartened by all the newcomers who are using the "dissolve KOH in hot glycerin" method against the safety advice of Irish Lass, Susie, me, and others. Every newcomer who has posted here of late has done this, and one of those recently found out the hard way why the 100% glycerin method is not recommended. Has something changed to make people ignore the good advice? 

It is so much safer and easier to dissolve the KOH in at least its own weight of water, and then add whatever glycerin one wants to equal the total "water" weight for the recipe.

I don't get it. :cry:


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> I am disheartened by all the newcomers who are using the "dissolve KOH in hot glycerin" method against the safety advice of Irish Lass, Susie, me, and others. Every newcomer who has posted here of late has done this, and one of those recently found out the hard way why the 100% glycerin method is not recommended. Has something changed to make people ignore the good advice?
> 
> It is so much safer and easier to dissolve the KOH in at least its own weight of water, and then add whatever glycerin one wants to equal the total "water" weight for the recipe.
> 
> I don't get it. :cry:



^^^^^This!  Stop using glycerin to dissolve the KOH already!  IrishLass' recipe no longer calls for that dangerous process!  Not every video you see on YouTube is safe!


----------



## artemis

DeeAnna said:


> I am disheartened by all the newcomers who are using the "dissolve KOH in hot glycerin" method ...



I'm thinking it's because they are new and they are watching a video with bad advice and then looking for good advice after the fact. Perhaps the only way to really combat this bad advice is to get it out to the people who are not yet using the forum. Maybe some educational videos on the SMF youtube channel, to counter all those videos with soapers doing it wrong.


----------



## Bisbeesoap

Zany_in_CO said:


> Hi Bisbee, I didn't check your formula, but I've found that liquid soap can be drying at first... give it a couple of weeks and then see what you think.



I was hoping this might be the case. Thank you! I'll do my best to be patient 



DeeAnna said:


> I am disheartened by all the newcomers who are using the "dissolve KOH in hot glycerin" method against the safety advice of Irish Lass, Susie, me, and others. Every newcomer who has posted here of late has done this, and one of those recently found out the hard way why the 100% glycerin method is not recommended. Has something changed to make people ignore the good advice?
> 
> It is so much safer and easier to dissolve the KOH in at least its own weight of water, and then add whatever glycerin one wants to equal the total "water" weight for the recipe.
> 
> I don't get it. :cry:



I don't know if this was directed at me, but here's my personal input. I may be new to the forums, but I am a seasoned soap maker. I actually made 2 batches, one as described in my previous post, and the second dissolving the KOH in equal parts water, then combined with two parts glycerin. This was not relevant to my question, so I did not include this piece of information. I made a calculated decision to try both methods to decide for myself which I prefer. I proceeded with due caution and respect towards the materials I was handling. In the end, yes, I, too, prefer the less hazardous method, and would recommend it overall.


----------



## DeeAnna

My comments were not directed at any person. As I clearly noted in my earlier post, I mentioned that newcomers (plural) have mentioned doing this recently. I was commenting about the situation in general.


----------



## biarine

Still I am using 100% water, I just made once with 60% water and 40% glycerine. I will just use glycerine if I will make a face wash or shampoo because glycerine is expensive.


----------



## toxikon

Hi soapy friends. I think I'm finally going to take the plunge into liquid soap. And don't worry, I'm not going to dissolve KOH into glycerin.  

I read IL's instructions and did my best to paraphrase them for my own quick notes. Does everything seem correct? Thank you kindly.



> IL's Liquid Soap
> 
> (Use SummerbeeMeadow's Advanced Liquid Soap Calculator: http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps)
> 
> • 65% Olive Oil
> • 25% Coconut Oil
> • 10% Castor Oil
> 
> • 100% KOH
> • Amount of water equal to KOH to dissolve KOH + 200% (of KOH amount) as glycerin added to oils
> _Ex: 150g KOH, 150g Water, 300g Glycerin_
> 
> • 3% Superfat
> 
> Add to Dilution Water:
> • 3% (of paste weight) Sodium Lactate
> 
> Dilution Rate
> • 1 part paste to .62 part water (multiply paste weight by .62)
> 
> 1. Melt oils in bowl/crockpot, add glycerin to oils
> 2. Dissolve KOH in equal amount of water
> 3. Add hot KOH solution to melted oils and whisk
> 4. Mixture will go through stages: opaque, clear amber, bubbles on top
> 5. After 10 minutes of whisking, may start to see bubbles flying up or a foamy head on (still liquid) solution, stop whisking
> 6. Tightly cover bowl/pot, off-heat, and let set for 6-24 hrs
> 7. Check periodically on mixture, scoop a spoon into it to see if it's a thick, sticky taffy consistency and translucent gold and check for zap
> 8. Heat water in pot to simmer, weigh paste into canning jar (leave enough room for water and stick blender)
> 9. Weigh out dilution water and SL and bring to boil, then add to paste
> 10. Seal jar and shake then place in simmering water to soften for 15-20 minutes
> 11. Open jar and check to see if it's reached jelly consistency - if not, simmer for another 10 minutes
> 12. When the consistency is lumpy jelly, pulse with stickblender until there are no more lumps - will become milky colour
> 13. Reseal jar and return to the simmering water and turn the heat off, let rest for 3 hours in water bath
> 14. When ready to add fragrance, add equal amount of PS80 (mix both together before adding to liquid soap) - if soap becomes cloudy, add additional drops of PS80 until clear



****edited with Susie's corrections.*


----------



## BattleGnome

My only changes are that I've never actually seen steps 4/5. I mix to emulsion then walk away. If steps 4/5 happen it's while my back is turned. For me this is 5ish minutes with a stick blender and a bit of extra time to pretend I'm going to clean up immediately


----------



## DeeAnna

"...some members recommend IL's LS tutorial (because it is very good) for those who want to learn to make liquid soap without cautioning that it is an advanced method..."

You've been here 4 months, Zany, but you obviously haven't read Irish Lass' tutorial. Irish Lass updated her tutorial to recommend dissolving KOH in water. It's pretty hard to miss -- the update has been there in *red* and *bold *letters since October 2016. 

With the exception of the original process of dissolving the KOH in heated glycerin, IL's method is as basic and as straightforward as it gets -- it's hardly an "advanced method."

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=428988&postcount=8


----------



## Susie

toxikon said:


> Hi soapy friends. I think I'm finally going to take the plunge into liquid soap. And don't worry, I'm not going to dissolve KOH into glycerin.
> 
> I read IL's instructions and did my best to paraphrase them for my own quick notes. Does everything seem correct? Thank you kindly.



Your water/glycerin amount should be a 25% solution in the end.  

KOH 
+ equal amount of water to dissolve 
+ 200% KOH amount as glycerin added to the oils.

Example:  

KOH 150g 
Water 150g
Dissolve the KOH into the water.
Glycerine 300g mixed into oils.


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> "...some members recommend IL's LS tutorial (because it is very good) for those who want to learn to make liquid soap without cautioning that it is an advanced method..."
> 
> You've been here 4 months, Zany, but you obviously haven't read Irish Lass' tutorial. Irish Lass updated her tutorial to recommend dissolving KOH in water. It's pretty hard to miss -- the update has been there in *red* and *bold *letters since October 2016.
> 
> With the exception of the original process of dissolving the KOH in heated glycerin, IL's method is as basic and as straightforward as it gets -- it's hardly an "advanced method."
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=428988&postcount=8



^^^This, exactly!

IrishLass' recipe and method are dead easy, and very well written in plain English.  They are as easy as CP bar soap, and I do not hesitate to steer people to it who have never made bar soap.  

Your recipe/method (AKA Failor method), on the other hand, I consider outdated and unnecessarily complicated, and I do not recommend that ANYONE use it.  Matter of fact, I really hate that you put it onto this forum, as people now believe it is the "official" method, and get turned off of what is a simple process that yields good results.


----------



## toxikon

Susie said:


> Your water/glycerin amount should be a 25% solution in the end.
> 
> KOH
> + equal amount of water to dissolve
> + 200% KOH amount as glycerin added to the oils.
> 
> Example:
> 
> KOH 150g
> Water 150g
> Dissolve the KOH into the water.
> Glycerine 300g mixed into oils.



Thank you Susie!


----------



## Saponificarian

Wowza!


----------



## toxikon

One more quick check before I go try this tonight! I used the Summerbee calc, it's a bit confusing to me, so I just want to make sure the numbers look correct for a 500g batch.



> 325g olive oil (11.46oz)
> 125g coconut oil (4.40oz)
> 50g castor oil (1.76oz)
> 
> 106g KOH (3.74oz)
> 106g water (3.74oz)
> 
> 212g glycerin (7.48oz)
> 
> *Dilution:*
> 573g water (approx)
> 28g SL (approx)


----------



## Susie

toxikon said:


> One more quick check before I go try this tonight! I used the Summerbee calc, it's a bit confusing to me, so I just want to make sure the numbers look correct for a 500g batch.



Ease into that dilution amount.  And understand if you use heat to dilute, you are going to probably need additional water as some is lost to evaporation.


----------



## toxikon

Susie said:


> Ease into that dilution amount.  And understand if you use heat to dilute, you are going to probably need additional water as some is lost to evaporation.



Gotcha, thanks. Would you recommend just using a crockpot instead of the canning jar method? It seems like it'd be easier to slowly dilute and judge the consistency of the paste in a large container.


----------



## DeeAnna

It depends on the size of your batch and how much you want to dilute at one time. I often dilute enough to make about a quart of finished soap, and store the rest as paste. 

There's also something to be said for diluting a portion of the batch if this is the first time making the recipe. If it gets over-diluted, then you can always add a bit more paste to correct the problem. And then the next dilution will go a bit easier since you'll have some idea of the final dilution. I still sneak up on the dilution even so -- but I'm able to sneak up a little faster.  

A quart canning jar will work to dilute paste made from 250-300 grams of fat. This is based on Irish Lass coconut-olive-castor recipe. If you want to do more than that at one go, a crock pot might be best. Or if you don't mind trading a longer time vs. hovering, you can just dilute at room temp -- that's what I usually do.


----------



## toxikon

DeeAnna said:


> It depends on the size of your batch and how much you want to dilute at one time. I often dilute enough to make about a quart of finished soap, and store the rest as paste.
> 
> There's also something to be said for diluting a portion of the batch if this is the first time making the recipe. If it gets over-diluted, then you can always add a bit more paste to correct the problem. And then the next dilution will go a bit easier since you'll have some idea of the final dilution. I still sneak up on the dilution even so -- but I'm able to sneak up a little faster.
> 
> A quart canning jar will work to dilute paste made from 250-300 grams of fat. This is based on Irish Lass coconut-olive-castor recipe. If you want to do more than that at one go, a crock pot might be best. Or if you don't mind trading a longer time vs. hovering, you can just dilute at room temp -- that's what I usually do.



Thanks DeAnna! I was leaning towards a 500g batch, so perhaps I will divide it in 2, so, as you said, I will have some extra paste to work with if I dilute too much.


----------



## CassieLouisa

[10/13/2016 Edited to add that I now mix my KOH /glycerin differently than the above. I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of room temp. distilled water and then add the normal/full complement of (room temp.) glycerin to the lye solution. Doing it this this way makes it so much easier/less fussy to dissolve the KOH. Instead of taking 8 to 10 minutes of cooking in boiling glycerin for the KOH to dissolve, it only takes as little as a minute, and no heating is required. Of course, doing it this updated way changes my dilution ratio because I have to account for the extra water I'm adding up front, but, no worries- I've got that figured out: my new dilution ratio is 1 part paste to .62 parts distilled water, instead of 1 part paste to .75 parts distilled water]

Hi, I've made 3 batches of liquid soap and the first one was adding the KOH to hot glycerin. Before everyone attacks me, let me explain why I did it that way my very first time. The above quote from Irish Lass says that her revised way is easier/less fussy. It doesn't say 'do it this way or you might burn your house down or die from inhaling chemical fumes.' Again, please don't attack me - let me finish explaining. 

So when I first read the revision I thought to myself okay it's less fussy and easier to do it the new revised way, but I want to learn the process from beginning to end so let me take the same route IL did. The OTHER reason I heated my glycerin is because of the dilution change in the above quote. The part that says:
 "Of course, doing it this updated way changes my dilution ratio because I have to account for the extra water I'm adding up front, but, no worries- I've got that figured out: my new dilution ratio is 1 part paste to .62 parts distilled water, instead of 1 part paste to .75 parts distilled water"

That ^^^ that dilution part of the revision had my head spinning. That sounded like an incredibly complicated and over-my-head matte. Little did I know my very FIRST time that dilution is not a set ratio and can be done hundreds of different ways, some that don't even require heat, you just put the paste in a jar with a little water and let it do its thing and a lot it is just plain old personal preference. 

See I didn't know anything about making soap so when I read part one of IL revision and then to part two of IL revision, and you can't do one revision without the additional revision, I said to myself -- just do it the way it was written the first time. So that's why I did what I did - and maybe - just maybe - that is why so many other newbies are heating the glycerin and adding the KOH to hot glycerin.

So please understand I come in peace, I am a newbie, I did use hot glycerin while adding my KOH the first time, but now I hope you understand the reason why.

If you still don't understand, and you still insist on pointing fingers and being critical instead of supportive, just know that I really was trying to learn. Which is what this forum is about, right?

Peace Out!


----------



## Susie

CassieLouisa said:


> [10/13/2016 Edited to add that I now mix my KOH /glycerin differently than the above. I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of room temp. distilled water and then add the normal/full complement of (room temp.) glycerin to the lye solution. Doing it this this way makes it so much easier/less fussy to dissolve the KOH. Instead of taking 8 to 10 minutes of cooking in boiling glycerin for the KOH to dissolve, it only takes as little as a minute, and no heating is required. Of course, doing it this updated way changes my dilution ratio because I have to account for the extra water I'm adding up front, but, no worries- I've got that figured out: my new dilution ratio is 1 part paste to .62 parts distilled water, instead of 1 part paste to .75 parts distilled water]
> 
> Hi, I've made 3 batches of liquid soap and the first one was adding the KOH to hot glycerin. Before everyone attacks me, let me explain why I did it that way my very first time. The above quote from Irish Lass says that her revised way is easier/less fussy. It doesn't say 'do it this way or you might burn your house down or die from inhaling chemical fumes.' Again, please don't attack me - let me finish explaining.
> 
> So when I first read the revision I thought to myself okay it's less fussy and easier to do it the new revised way, but I want to learn the process from beginning to end so let me take the same route IL did. The OTHER reason I heated my glycerin is because of the dilution change in the above quote. The part that says:
> "Of course, doing it this updated way changes my dilution ratio because I have to account for the extra water I'm adding up front, but, no worries- I've got that figured out: my new dilution ratio is 1 part paste to .62 parts distilled water, instead of 1 part paste to .75 parts distilled water"
> 
> That ^^^ that dilution part of the revision had my head spinning. That sounded like an incredibly complicated and over-my-head matte. Little did I know my very FIRST time that dilution is not a set ratio and can be done hundreds of different ways, some that don't even require heat, you just put the paste in a jar with a little water and let it do its thing and a lot it is just plain old personal preference.
> 
> See I didn't know anything about making soap so when I read part one of IL revision and then to part two of IL revision, and you can't do one revision without the additional revision, I said to myself -- just do it the way it was written the first time. So that's why I did what I did - and maybe - just maybe - that is why so many other newbies are heating the glycerin and adding the KOH to hot glycerin.
> 
> So please understand I come in peace, I am a newbie, I did use hot glycerin while adding my KOH the first time, but now I hope you understand the reason why.
> 
> If you still don't understand, and you still insist on pointing fingers and being critical instead of supportive, just know that I really was trying to learn. Which is what this forum is about, right?
> 
> Peace Out!



I understand that.  And I am replying in peace.  I just want you to understand where we are coming from.

We are strongly trying to encourage everyone to try the revised method rather than the original.  After all, when we know better, we do better. (paraphrased Maya Angelou) And we try hard to give you newbies the best information on the best recipes/methods that we can.  Then a whole bunch of you go and use the original.  It makes us frustrated.  And if I could remove that video from YouTube, I would, I assure you.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...you still insist on pointing fingers and being critical instead of supportive..."

I'm pretty sure the "you" you're pointing a finger at is me, so I'm making another attempt to defuse this matter.

For the record, there have been about four individuals relatively new to SMF and new to liquid soap making who have reported doing the "hot glycerin" method in the past few weeks. That's a fair number of LS newbies who have decided to use this technique in a relatively short time. A full read of this particular thread will show the majority of soapers making LS are currently using the "dissolve KOH in water" method. It has puzzled and worried me to see this apparent shift by LS newbies away from this method. This is the gist of what I was trying to say in Post 723.

My concerns about this matter were brought to a high level specifically when I read the report in Post 701. Brown glycerin is decomposing glycerin and decomposing glycerin produces chemicals that are volatile, toxic, and irritating to the respiratory system. And when a person is hanging her nose over a pan of hot decomposing glycerin, she is exposing herself very thoroughly, if unwittingly, to inhaling these toxic, irritating chemicals.

I put safety pretty high on the list of things that are important to me, and one of my goals as a member of SMF is to educate people about safety. I am an engineer with experience in the chemical industry. In some cases I've had to work around chemicals that would kill or disable a person with just one whiff, so I'm aware of hazards that other people don't know about or choose to disregard. If I see soapers doing things that could injure their health, I will speak up and express my concerns.

If my interest in keeping people safe and healthy does not sound sufficiently supportive, I can live with that. I can't live with the idea of not saying anything and later hearing that someone has been hurt.


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> "...you still insist on pointing fingers and being critical instead of supportive..."
> 
> I'm pretty sure the "you" you're pointing a finger at is me, so I'm making another attempt to defuse this matter.
> 
> For the record, there have been about four individuals relatively new to SMF and new to liquid soap making who have reported doing the "hot glycerin" method in the past few weeks. That's a fair number of LS newbies who have decided to use this technique in a relatively short time. A full read of this particular thread will show the majority of soapers making LS are currently using the "dissolve KOH in water" method. It has puzzled and worried me to see this apparent shift by LS newbies away from this method. This is the gist of what I was trying to say in Post 723.
> 
> My concerns about this matter were brought to a high level specifically when I read the report in Post 701. Brown glycerin is decomposing glycerin and decomposing glycerin produces chemicals that are volatile, toxic, and irritating to the respiratory system. And when a person is hanging her nose over a pan of hot decomposing glycerin, she is exposing herself very thoroughly, if unwittingly, to inhaling these toxic, irritating chemicals.
> 
> I put safety pretty high on the list of things that are important to me, and one of my goals as a member of SMF is to educate people about safety. I am an engineer with experience in the chemical industry. In some cases I've had to work around chemicals that would kill or disable a person with just one whiff, so I'm aware of hazards that other people don't know about or choose to disregard. If I see soapers doing things that could injure their health, I will speak up and express my concerns.
> 
> If my interest in keeping people safe and healthy does not sound sufficiently supportive, I can live with that. I can't live with the idea of not saying anything and later hearing that someone has been hurt.



^^^^This!


----------



## toxikon

Well that was an interesting experience LOL.

I think I mixed my ingredients too cool, as I stick-blended for 15 minutes and my 'paste' remained liquid. I left it alone for a couple hours, saw separation, blended again. A couple hours later, I check again and it was thickening nicely but with a large pool of liquid on top - more separation!

As a last ditch effort, I set my bowl into a simmering pot of water and broke it up and mixed it with a spoon. It re-liquidized nicely, but it seemed like there were tons of little (and some big) chunks of transparent stuff - perhaps glycerin? 

Anyway, after I did that, it became a nice taffy consistency, although still chunky. I left it alone overnight and no more separation this morning and no zap.

I'll proceed with dilution and hope that the stickblender will break up those translucent chunks. I'll report back! And keep the temperatures higher initially next time.


----------



## Claudsoap

Ive never tried this method before, it sounds great!  
Do you completely avoid insolubles this way?  Cause I hate them. Any recommendations on how to get rid of them?
Can you use any combo of oils to achieve this as long as you do glycerin and KOH?

I was thinking...
Coconut oil 65%
Olive oil 20%
Soybean oil 13%
Sweet Almond oil 2%

Cheers!


----------



## biarine

I tried yesterday a 50:50 water and glycerine. I dissolve my koh to my 50% water and I add my glycerine to my oil. I love it and after 3 hours no zap anymore but I wait 8 hours before I diluted the paste. I add rosin and very nice amber colour soap.


----------



## DeeAnna

_Coconut oil 65%
Olive oil 20%
Soybean oil 13%
Sweet Almond oil 2%
_
You could make that soap, but if you want a honey-thick soap, you won't get it using 65% coconut oil unless you use a separate thickener that doesn't depend on the soap itself for thickening. Just dilution is unlikely to work. Salt very likely will also not do anything much for thickening with that much CO.

2% sweet almond oil is not useful. Use at least 5% or more of most soaping fats or don't bother (unless you're trying to use up dribs and drabs). There are a few exceptions of fats that are useful at under 5%, but almond oil isn't one of them.

I strongly recommend you use Irish Lass recipe of 65% olive, 25% CO, and 10% castor, at least for your first recipe. It's a tried and true formula and if you have problems, you will get good advice due to our familiarity with this particular recipe. Get used to diluting this soap, get used to the thickness of this particular soap, get used to how it lathers and feels on your skin. Then try a new recipe and build on your experience.

_Do you completely avoid insolubles this way?_

No, you can't. Think about it -- why would insoluble material disappear simply because you use some glycerin as part of the "water" phase? The glycerin is used as an accelerant for the saponification reaction.

And ... please do NOT use the "dissolve the KOH in hot glycerin" method. There is a high risk in this method for no benefit. Dissolve your KOH in an equal weight or more of water. And then add sufficient glycerin and/or additional water until the total equals your desired total 'water" weight. Two parts glycerin to one of water or even one part glycerin to 2 of water will give you plenty of acceleration and minimize the safety risk.

_Any recommendations on how to get rid of them?_

Simple. Don't use fats or other ingredients with insoluble components in them. To some extent, it's impossible to completely eliminate insoluble chemicals, but you can minimize the problem. Your best bet is to avoid fats that are known to have high unsaponifiable content -- avocado, jojoba, and shea being several prime examples. Also avoid fats high in stearic and palmitic acid -- palm, lard, tallow, the butters (cocoa, mango, shea, etc.) to avoid cloudiness from the stearic and palmitic soaps. And minimize the superfat -- 3% is about as high as one can typically go and not have separation or cloudiness.

_Can you use any combo of oils to achieve this as long as you do glycerin and KOH?_

If you want a clear soap, the answer is no. See my previous answers. That said, you can theoretically make LS with ANY blend of fats but the type of soap you'll end up with may not be what you want -- it may be very thin, it may be cloudy, it may not lather well or at all, etc. 

You'll have better results making a LS using a recipe with a high % of high oleic oils to get a thicker product and also a relatively high % of coconut or other "bubbly" fats to get decent lather. Many people also use some castor, again to boost bubbles and encourage transparency. All three of these fats will typically make a clear amber soap.


----------



## Claudsoap

Ahhhh, thank you so much!

Thank you for your wonderful feed back.  Ill give it a try and see how it goes.  I wish I had only found all this information sooner!


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## Claudsoap

Thank you for the suggestions.  I made a new batch and it turned out perfectly!


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## toxikon

Woohoo, it worked!


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## Susie

Congratulations!


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## Zany_in_CO

WOO HOO! Well done!


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## biarine

Congrats


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## Kmyny

Here is my first attempt - does this look right? It is taffy like consistency -but not translucent and pretty light in colour. I used the original recipe as posted by Irishlass...... It doesn't zap so I think I'm good to dilute???  

Also - Irishlass and those that whisk by hand - my goodness you must get your workout in when doing it. Even my stick blender was beginning to complain and getting hot in my hand!


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## Susie

That looks perfect!  Assuming you used IrishLass' recipe, you have simply mixed air in there.


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## Kmyny

And the dilution! 

I have to say it makes my skin feel a little tight but still happy with the results!! Now if I want to dilute this further for a foamer bottle... just add more distilled H2O? And I'm assuming I would scent based on weight of the final dillition (not this one?)


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## IrishLass

Kmyny said:


> Here is my first attempt - does this look right? It is taffy like consistency -but not translucent and pretty light in colour. I used the original recipe as posted by Irishlass...... It doesn't zap so I think I'm good to dilute???


 
Your paste looks beautiful. It is ready to dilute as long as it does not zap. Don't worry that the paste is not translucent. I don't know if you were able to read through the entirety of this thread or not, but I mention in one of my subsequent posts somewhere in this vast thread that it's okay if your paste is not translucent. I should probably add an edit about that in my post #8. 



Kmyny said:


> Also - Irishlass and those that whisk by hand - my goodness you must get your workout in when doing it. Even my stick blender was beginning to complain and getting hot in my hand!


 
I only whisk until my batter looks like it is emulsified (i.e., very light trace if you are familiar with making CP), or until I see flying bubbles.....whichever come first ....which doesn't take any more than 8 - 10 minutes- not much of a workout at all. I think I get more of a workout when making pudding from scratch. lol If I whisked until my batter turned into paste, that would be a different story, no doubt, but I don't whisk until my batter turns into paste like 3bees~1flower does in her video. My batter is still quite liquid when I cover my soaping pot and walk away and let it do the workout of turning into paste on its own. 



Kmyny said:


> I have to say it makes my skin feel a little tight but still happy with the results!! Now if I want to dilute this further for a foamer bottle... just add more distilled H2O? And I'm assuming I would scent based on weight of the final dillition (not this one?)


 
If your skin feels tight, you can always sequester the paste for a week before diluting and see if that helps. Or you can add a little extra oil to the finished dilution (superfat) along with some PS80 to solubize it into the mix.

I've never added mine to foamer bottles, but I believe Susie does. Hopefully she will chime in on that.

Re: scent- I add scent based on the weight of my fully diluted soap.

IrishLass


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## Susie

Yes, you add additional distilled water.  I usually double my weight of diluted soap, then it always takes a little more, but you have to tweak it based on your foamers.  The ones I have in my house (that is 4 hours from where I am living) take an additional 1 oz per 8 oz double diluted soap, the ones here take an additional 2 oz.  You are just going to have to play with it. My best advice is just to dilute for one foamer until you get the proper amount.


----------



## Kmyny

IrishLass said:


> Your paste looks beautiful. It is ready to dilute as long as it does not zap. Don't worry that the paste is not translucent. I don't know if you were able to read through the entirety of this thread or not, but I mention in one of my subsequent posts somewhere in this vast thread that it's okay if your paste is not translucent. I should probably add an edit about that in my post #8.
> 
> 
> 
> I only whisk until my batter looks like it is emulsified (i.e., very light trace if you are familiar with making CP), or until I see flying bubbles.....whichever come first ....which doesn't take any more than 8 - 10 minutes- not much of a workout at all. I think I get more of a workout when making pudding from scratch. lol If I whisked until my batter turned into paste, that would be a different story, no doubt, but I don't whisk until my batter turns into paste like 3bees~1flower does in her video. My batter is still quite liquid when I cover my soaping pot and walk away and let it do the workout of turning into paste on its own.
> 
> 
> 
> If your skin feels tight, you can always sequester the paste for a week before diluting and see if that helps. Or you can add a little extra oil to the finished dilution (superfat) along with some PS80 to solubize it into the mix.
> 
> IrishLass



I have read through the first 25 pages of this thread, but mostly late a night when the littles are all asleep - Im sure I saw it somewhere (now that you mention your paste isn't always translucent). 

And yes, Thanks for confirming my thoughts!  - I was thinking of leaving the paste to sit a little more and if it still feels a little tight I will try adding additional oil


----------



## Kmyny

Susie said:


> Yes, you add additional distilled water.  I usually double my weight of diluted soap, then it always takes a little more, but you have to tweak it based on your foamers.  The ones I have in my house (that is 4 hours from where I am living) take an additional 1 oz per 8 oz double diluted soap, the ones here take an additional 2 oz.  You are just going to have to play with it. My best advice is just to dilute for one foamer until you get the proper amount.



Thanks! Do you have to re-heat or just mix in the water? - I will try just mixing and if it doesn't come together I guess there is my answer 



Susie said:


> Yes, you add additional distilled water.  I usually double my weight of diluted soap, then it always takes a little more, but you have to tweak it based on your foamers.  The ones I have in my house (that is 4 hours from where I am living) take an additional 1 oz per 8 oz double diluted soap, the ones here take an additional 2 oz.  You are just going to have to play with it. My best advice is just to dilute for one foamer until you get the proper amount.



Thanks! Do you have to re-heat or just mix in the water? - I will try just mixing and if it doesn't come together I guess there is my answer


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## Susie

If I know I am diluting for the foamer bottles, I just add all my water at once in the crock pot as soon as I know I have zapless paste, so it is still warm.  If I have diluted soap already, it does not matter the temperature. 

When I make my paste, I make a 32 oz oil size batch.  So, I scoop out paste in 16 oz amounts to dilute later.  Those I store in the refrigerator (I can't lose them there.) in Ziploc bags.  So, I know exactly how much water to use.


----------



## thegriffiths

Hello everyone - I have just begun my liquid soap making journey, although I have been researching it for over 6 months and i have been making regular cold process soap for 6 years.  I tried the "normal" hot process way and HATED it!  But I saw the process that Irish Lass and Susie have posted about and thought it would be so much better.  I tried it tonight and everything went great up until about the "apple sauce stage" of mixing.  The mixture had heated up to about 172 degrees and I thought "oh boy!" here it goes!  And then the temps started dropping and dropping and it never got any further along.

I think I followed the post pretty well.  I checked my recipe twice with two different calculators and they both showed the KOH and Oils to be correct.  Here is my process:

I disolved the KOH in an equal amount of Water.  Then added glycerin (twice as much as the KOH).  My oils were already mixed(and warm).  I combined the KOH/Glycerin and oils together.   Then started stick blending.  The temp rose to 140 deg very quickly.  Then continued stick blending up until it hit 172.  Then nothing.  Its sitting in my pot getting cooler and cooler and is not anywhere near paste.  

I did do a zap test.  And it is completely zap free.  Which I thought was strange.  Any ideas what went wrong?  I added a pic so you can see it.

Thanks for the help,
Heather


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## BattleGnome

Looks fine to me. At this point I'd go finish up some chores and come back in an hour. Magic will happen, it's just magic, no hard work needed.


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## thegriffiths

Unfortunately nothing changed overnight.  Im going to try and dilute it and see if it works out or not.  I really think something went wrong...I just dont know what.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...I really think something went wrong...I just dont know what...."

Why do you think something's wrong? Honestly, the stuff in your photo looks like fine soap paste to me.  

You said it reached 172 F and that's plenty hot enough to finish saponifying nicely within an hour or so of reaching that peak temperature.

Just because you didn't see the exact same physical stages that you read in the tutorials, doesn't mean there's a problem. I've never seen flying bubbles and my finished soap paste ranges from opaque yellowish white goo with the sticky consistency of peanut butter to a transparent amber paste that's very stiff and firm. It's all good soap.


----------



## Susie

You have zap free soap paste ready to dilute.  Nothing went wrong.  Go start dilution!

Go...shoo....shoo!

It will clear up, don't you worry.


----------



## thegriffiths

LOL!  Thanks for the kick in the pants.  I guess my experience with hot process LS has me worried and anxious about it.  

I will dilute tonight and see what happens.  Thanks!!!!


----------



## smengot0

Hello house, I have made both of IL recipes in the past using 50:50 distilled water to glycerin with success I must say. Yesterday I got a little too ambitious me think and I decided to try the pharmacist method. I failed woefully. See how my lye glycerin solution turned out below....


----------



## smengot0

_hello house, i have made both of il recipes in the past using 50:50 distilled water to glycerin with success i must say. Yesterday i got a little too ambitious me think and i decided to try the pharmacist method. I failed woefully. See how my lye glycerin solution turned out below...._







First picture was taken yesterday. Second picture taken this morning. Question is can the lye glycerin solution be used? Will the KOH dissolve completely in glycerin? Or should I trash the solution?

Recipe: 34oz of fats/oils. 13.30oz water (100% glycerin). 7.81oz KOH

Thanks all


----------



## asmita

Try adding distilled water to the existing solution bit by bit till lye dissolves. Since both glycerin and lye are water soluble, you should not have an issue.


----------



## erleichda

Hi to all,

I've been lurking and planning to post for soo long that I can't believe I am actually writing. I guess it all takes a soapy failure  Just want to say this  forum is so amazing. I learn so much. 

I've been so scared to try liquid soap. I read C. Failor's book when I was 15 and remember thinking this is too complicated. Years years later and after many cp batches I decided  its the time. I followed couple of tutorials but nothing worked well. Finally I started reading this thread and its been so useful. At some point I was taking notes and then I had to give up because I just wanted to write everything down.   

I still haven't finished the whole thread (but read most of it) and couldn't wait any longer so I gave it a go today. 

I don't have a designated soap pot (since I do my cp in plastic containers but I have crockpot for soap making so I used it. Just kept it on to melt the coconut oil and then switched off. 

I used 3bees~1flower's formula that Irishlass shared and followed her perfectly detailed instructions. I am fairly sure I measured everything correctly. Although I couldn't find my whisk and after stirring with a spoon for 15 minutes I gave up and used my stickblender (yes its plastic but I remembered I safely used it in boiling soup before I gave it a career in soapmaking - still I don't recommend this). So I stickblended it for 5 minutes and I didn't see the flying bubbles but it looked like it's not separating so I closed the lid and left it alone. 

I checked it 20 mins later and saw that glycerin was separated. So I stick blended again and very quickly it became very thick. I stirred it with a spatula for a bit but wasn't separating and so I left it alone. 

6 hours later it was looking like magic was done. I had a thick paste. Then I realised there is a bit of liquid left so I thought it needs more time. I was so sure it will come out perfect and so I left it for 2 more hours. 

2 hours later I zap tested it. And boy it zaps! There is a nice looking paste  and everything looks like it should be. But then I started poking it with a spoon and realised there is a layer of oil at the bottom of the pot.  I have this paste sitting on a layer of oil :shock:

So I guess I didn't mix it well or I maybe it was this false paste that Susie wrote about in post #107. 

So now I gave it a good stir. I am not sure its going to be enough though. The paste was very thick. I think I'll leave it overnight and hope for the best. If its still zappy in the morning I am thinking to turn on the crock pot in the lowest setting (and maybe add wee bit of water) to soften the paste so I can mix better. Any other suggestions are more than welcome. 

Well...I am learning. :crazy I just wanted to post this because I learned so much from others experiences and replies written to them here.


----------



## magali

Hi, other than FO and preservative, I want to incorporate these ingredients into my glycerin liquid soap, I will use the dilution method in this thread post #8. Should I just blend everything into the dilution while diluting or I need to dissolve any of them first? And would any of these effect the clarity of the ls? They are: crothix or xanthan gum, salt, aloe powder 2:1, allantoin powder, coco betaine, liquid extracts. 

Pointers and tips would be appreciated on when and how to incorporate these to ls. Thank you!


----------



## Claudsoap

Hi everyone,  I'm finally going to try the method in post #8.  I would like to use 1 part glycerin and 2 parts h20.  How does this change my dilution rate?  I was going to dilute at 60% h20.  Math is not my strong suite.  I would appreciate the help.


----------



## Susie

Claudsoap said:


> Hi everyone,  I'm finally going to try the method in post #8.  I would like to use 1 part glycerin and 2 parts h20.  How does this change my dilution rate?  I was going to dilute at 60% h20.  Math is not my strong suite.  I would appreciate the help.



You will still need about 75% H2O to dilute.  The ratio of H2O:Glycerin does not affect dilution amount required.  There is a minimum amount of water required to dilute paste that is determined mostly by the oil.


----------



## Claudsoap

My soap turned out great, however not thick like honey!


----------



## IrishLass

Hi Claudsoap- just seeing this.......

I've found that much depends on the amount of liquid I add up front when making the paste as to how honey-like my finished liquid soap ends up. If I use Carrie's original, up-front lye solution rate of 1 part KOH to 3 parts glycerin (a 25% lye concentration), then a dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 parts water works perfectly to end up with a honey-like consistency.

But when I use my revised method for this recipe by which the KOH is dissolved in an equal amount of water first before adding in the full complement of glycerin normally added up front (which basically turns it into a 20% lye concentration) then the dilution rate to get a honey-like consistency later on needs less water (.62 parts water to 1 part paste) to end up with a honey-like consistency.


IrishLass


----------



## amal

IrishLass said:


> Okay- to continue.......
> 
> To dilute, I use Carrie's canning jar method. It's easy and it prevents evaporation as your're diluting:
> 
> A) I heat up some water to simmering in a large soup pot (enough water to come up the sides of my canning jar without making the jar float). Also- I stick a round cake cooling rack in the bottom of the pot so that my canning jar won't be in direct contact with the pot's bottom.
> 
> B) While the pot of water is coming to a simmer, I weigh out my paste (dried foamy head and all) into an appropriate-sized canning jar, i.e., one that will accomodate my paste and dilution liquid with enough room to spare for stickblending purposes, and set aside.
> 
> C) I weigh out my dilution water and my sodium lactate and add them together into a separate pot (using the dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 parts water, and 3% sodium lactate as per weight of my paste)*[*See edited note in post #8 under procedure #3].* I bring this mixture to a boil then immediately pour it over my waiting paste in my canning jar.
> 
> D) Then I cover the the jar tightly with its matching lid, give it a shake, then place the jar into the large soup pot of simmering water to warm and soften things up.
> 
> E) After about 15-20 minutes or so I take the jar out, wipe the water/condensation off the jar, then I open it so I can stick a clean knife inside to stir things around and test how soft the paste has become. If it's as soft as jam/jelly, I hit it with my stickblender for a minute or so of on and off pulsing until there are no more lumps, but if the paste is not soft enough to my liking yet, I'll just cover it back up and let it sit in the simmering water about 10 minutes more and check again before deciding to stickblend or not.
> 
> I need to mention that when I hit it with the stickblender, the contents turn an opaque milky white color. This is normal and only temporary.
> 
> F) Once it has been stickblended, I squeegee off as much soap as I can from the stickblender back into the jar, cover with the lid, and stick the jar back into the pot of hot water (off the burner this time). If all goes as planned, the soap will clarify over the next few hours from the bottom up and turn into clear liquid soap with a foamy head on the surface.
> 
> G) Re: the foam: The foam eventually dissipates if I let it sit long enough (the warmth of the water helps greatly with this), but sometimes when I get impatient I'll spritz the foam with a spray or 2 of alcohol periodically to help the foam to dissipate in a more timely fashion. I try not to over-do the alcohol,though, because I don't want it to thin my soap out. I've read of people just skimming the foam off, but because I hate waste, I like to let it sit and dissipate to become part of the main body of soap.
> 
> H) When the soap is foam-free enough to my liking, I partition off as much as I would like to scent and bottle at that time, and I store the rest in the canning jar at room temp for later use.
> 
> I) When I add scent, I make sure to also add an equal amount of PS80 as per the amount of scent so that the scent will not separate out of my soap. I mix the scent with the PS80 and then stir the mixture into the soap. If it looks like the soap is clouding up from the scent at all, I'll just add more PS 80 drop by drop until all is clear again. Thankfully, that doesn't happen but once in a blue moon.
> 
> The finished soap is quite lovely, thick, and crystal clear:
> View attachment 28474
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a shot of it outside held up to the sky:
> View attachment 28475
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My suds:
> View attachment 28476
> 
> 
> 
> IrishLass


i know its too late but its a very helpful thread, i know nothing on liquid soap or where to start from but this thread really helps me a lot , thank you for your time,effort,information and generosity


----------



## Susie

amal said:


> i know its too late but its a very helpful thread, i know nothing on liquid soap or where to start from but this thread really helps me a lot , thank you for your time,effort,information and generosity



It isn't too late.  This thread is one we still suggest people come read.  It was a game changer for me and many others on making liquid soap.  It is just so full of useful info!


----------



## amal

sorry for interruption but here is a thing i couldn't understand,the amount of glycerin we use to dissolve the KOH ,is it a fixed ratio between it and the lye or what, as no one mention the amount he used , or we just do the calculation and divide the amount of water between water and glycerin ?? depending on the recipe you have written
and about the temp we used for cooking, is there a required temp i should wait to add my lye or just by dissolving the glycerin i add it , and after the 2 ingredients being dissolved i remove it and stay a while and add it to the oils or add it immediately??
another thing ,why we would use a superfat if we used sodium lactate, aren't they do the same job, providing smoothness to the pates ?
is the liquid soap can be considered as a body wash? and if not what is the difference ??
thanks  in advance @Susie @IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna

amal said:


> ... we just do the calculation and divide the amount of water between water and glycerin ??



Yes. You can choose any proportion of glycerin to water.

_"......is there a required temp i should wait to add my lye or just by dissolving the glycerin i add it , and after the 2 ingredients being dissolved i remove it and stay a while and add it to the oils or add it immediately??..."_

I am not sure I understand your question, but I think you are asking "should I add the lye solution to the fats while the solution is hot?" The answer is yes, you can add the lye solution while it is hot. 

_"...why we would use a superfat if we used sodium lactate, aren't they do the same job, providing smoothness to the pates ?..."_

No they are not the same. Superfat is a fat. It ensures there is no excess lye so the soap is safe to use on the skin. Superfat can also increase the mildness of the soap on the skin. Sodium lactate is a salt. It modifies the texture.

_"...is the liquid soap can be considered as a body wash? and if not what is the difference ??..."_

Body wash is technically a non-soap cleanser made with synthetic detergents. In the US, non-soap cleansers can not be called "soap" by law. (I know you are in Egypt.)

Liquid soap is a cleanser made by saponifying fats with an alkali. It can be called "body wash" or soap, as you wish. "Body wash" in this case is simply a fancy name, nothing more.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

amal said:


> sorry for interruption but here is a thing i couldn't understand,the amount of glycerin we use to dissolve the KOH ,is it a fixed ratio between it and the lye or what, as no one mention the amount he used , or we just do the calculation and divide the amount of water between water and glycerin ?? depending on the recipe you have written


Hi Amal and welcome! I'm not Susie or Irish Lash but I've been making liquid soap since 2004 so I hope you don't mind if I answer your questions as I understand them...
Once you figure the amount of KOH needed, the amount of water is generally figured at 3 X KOH.


amal said:


> and about the temp we used for cooking, is there a required temp i should wait to add my lye or just by dissolving the glycerin i add it , and after the 2 ingredients being dissolved i remove it and stay a while and add it to the oils or add it immediately??


Warm your oils/fats to 160°F, then make your lye solution. If using a crockpot, there's no need to wait to allow the lye solution to cool down. It is added right away, but take good care -- it's extremely hot. I use a stick blender with a steel shaft -- plastic melts! -- and start mixing as I'm pouring the lye solution into the oils.

NB: This is NOT a beginner's recipe. I would strongly advise you to wait until you have made a few (12-16 oz)  batches of liquid soap before trying it. I always get concerned when a Newbie wants to make this liquid soap because the lye solution is made with glycerin (or glycerin/water) which gets very hot and if you overheat it, it gives off fumes that may damage the skin and respiratory system. Read Sephera's posts in this link:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/simple-liquid-soap.68710/#post-701255

ETA: Here's link where you can learn to make Basic Beginner Liquid Soap:

http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2014/07/basic-beginner-liquid-soap-and.html

HAPPY SOAPING!


----------



## amal

Yes. You can choose any proportion of glycerin to water.
fine but i have  a concern, i have read that we calculate the amount of water according to the wt of the paste, so we firstly dissolve the KOH in the same amount of glycerin then after we get the paste we double the amount of water to reach 3:1 ratio ??


I am not sure I understand your question, but I think you are asking "should I add the lye solution to the fats while the solution is hot?" The answer is yes, you can add the lye solution while it is hot. 
i meant that if are we going to heat  the two component at the same time (as the lye and glycerin on heat, do the oils would be heated too,as the CO that i got is at solid form)

No they are not the same. Superfat is a fat. It ensures there is no excess lye so the soap is safe to use on the skin. Superfat can also increase the mildness of the soap on the skin. Sodium lactate is a salt. It modifies the texture.
i got it thank you

_"...is the liquid soap can be considered as a body wash? and if not what is the difference ??..."_

Body wash is technically a non-soap cleanser made with synthetic detergents. In the US, non-soap cleansers can not be called "soap" by law. (I know you are in Egypt.)

Liquid soap is a cleanser made by saponifying fats with an alkali. It can be called "body wash" or soap, as you wish. "Body wash" in this case is simply a fancy name, nothing more.[/QUOTE]
thank you , i got it now
i was thinking if it could be used as shower gel that we found in the market, or i it worked with me can i release it under shower gel cleanser


----------



## amal

Zany_in_CO said:


> Hi Amal and welcome! I'm not Susie or Irish Lash but I've been making liquid soap since 2004 so I hope you don't mind if I answer your questions as I understand them...
> Once you figure the amount of KOH needed, the amount of water is generally figured at 3 X KOH.
> hii zany,thank you for your help )))))
> and yes i have got that point
> Warm your oils/fats to 160°F, then make your lye solution. If using a crockpot, there's no need to wait to allow the lye solution to cool down. It is added right away, but take good care -- it's extremely hot. I use a stick blender with a steel shaft -- plastic melts! -- and start mixing as I'm pouring the lye solution into the oils.
> 
> NB: This is NOT a beginner's recipe. I would strongly advise you to wait until you have made a few (12-16 oz)  batches of liquid soap before trying it. I always get concerned when a Newbie wants to make this liquid soap because the lye solution is made with glycerin (or glycerin/water) which gets very hot and if you overheat it, it gives off fumes that may damage the skin and respiratory system. Read Sephera's posts in this link:
> https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/simple-liquid-soap.68710/#post-701255
> 
> ETA: Here's link where you can learn to make Basic Beginner Liquid Soap:
> 
> http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2014/07/basic-beginner-liquid-soap-and.html
> 
> HAPPY SOAPING! View attachment 32554


i have been through this blog for a while and i have read most of its posts about LS, according to its recipe and if i would start with 12 ounce oil batch (340g) my recipe ended like that
238g OO (70%)
68g  CO  (20%)
34g castor oil  (10%)
68g glycerin
70.8g KOH
142g dis. water
is this accurate calculation??
and he dissolved the KOH in the water first,why is that ??


----------



## shunt2011

Warm your oils/fats to 160°F, then make your lye solution. If using a crockpot, there's no need to wait to allow the lye solution to cool down. It is added right away, but take good care -- it's extremely hot. I use a stick blender with a steel shaft -- plastic melts! -- and start mixing as I'm pouring the lye solution into the oils.

NB: This is NOT a beginner's recipe. I would strongly advise you to wait until you have made a few (12-16 oz)  batches of liquid soap before trying it. I always get concerned when a Newbie wants to make this liquid soap because the lye solution is made with glycerin (or glycerin/water) which gets very hot and if you overheat it, it gives off fumes that may damage the skin and respiratory system. Read Sephera's posts in this link:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/simple-liquid-soap.68710/#post-701255

Mixing lye with glycerine has not been recommended and adjusted by IL.   This has been stated many many time when this is pointed out.  The lye is mixed with water and glycerine added afterward.    Posting the correct thread would have made more sense as IL's recipe is amazing.

Also, I would never heat my oils to 160.   Sorry too hot especially adding hot lye to it asking for a volcano in my experience.  I heat my oils until almost melted and clear.


----------



## IrishLass

amal said:


> sorry for interruption but here is a thing i couldn't understand,the amount of glycerin we use to dissolve the KOH ,is it a fixed ratio between it and the lye or what, as no one mention the amount he used , or we just do the calculation and divide the amount of water between water and glycerin ??



Hi Amal- the recipe as originally written uses a ratio of 1 part lye to 3 parts liquid (i.e., a 25% lye concentration). If you use the amended recipe (see the notes in red in post #8) it's more like a 4:1 ratio (20% lye concentration). 




amal said:


> and about the temp we used for cooking, is there a required temp i should wait to add my lye or just by dissolving the glycerin i add it , and after the 2 ingredients being dissolved i remove it and stay a while and add it to the oils or add it immediately??



It sounds like you may have missed reading the notes (typed in red) that I added to my original instructions for making this liquid soap recipe in post #8 on page 1 of this thread. Here they are:

*[10/13/2016 Edited to add that I now mix my KOH /glycerin differently than the above. I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of room temp. distilled water and then add the normal/full complement of (room temp.) glycerin to the lye solution. Doing it this this way makes it so much easier/less fussy to dissolve the KOH. Instead of taking 8 to 10 minutes of cooking in boiling glycerin for the KOH to dissolve, it only takes as little as a minute, and no heating is required. Of course, doing it this updated way changes my dilution ratio because I have to account for the extra water I'm adding up front, but, no worries- I've got that figured out: my new dilution ratio is 1 part paste to .62 parts distilled water, instead of 1 part paste to .75 parts distilled water. To see how things proceed when using my revised method of making the paste, see here. ]* 




amal said:


> another thing ,why we would use a superfat if we used sodium lactate, aren't they do the same job, providing smoothness to the pates ?



No they do not do the same job. The job of a super-fat is to lessen the cleansing power of the soap, making it feel more gentle/ less drying to the skin. The job of the sodium lactate in this recipe is to help the paste to dissolve in a more timely fashion.



amal said:


> is the liquid soap can be considered as a body wash? and if not what is the difference ??
> thanks  in advance @Susie @IrishLass



You can certainly use it as a body wash if you desire. There really is no difference between using it as a body wash or a hand soap..... it's soap afterall..... it'll get your hands clean as well as the rest you.  It will not lather as well as the typical body washes one can buy at the store, though, because those found in stores have lathering agents added to them such as SLS. 

For what it's worth, I personally choose to use my liquid soap for only washing my hands, and my solid/bar soap for washing my whole body in the shower. I like using my bar soap in the shower as opposed to my liquid soap because my bar soap lathers so much better for me in the shower compared to my liquid soap.....and also because it lasts a lot longer-  I don't need to use as much of to get the lather I desire for an all-over body soap.  




amal said:


> i have a concern, i have read that we calculate the amount of water according to the wt of the paste, so we firstly dissolve the KOH in the same amount of glycerin then after we get the paste we double the amount of water to reach 3:1 ratio ??



I think you may be a little confused on this point, and I'm sure my having changed the method of dissolving my lye didn't help, but hopefully I can help clear things up:

My original instructions started with a 3:1 glycerin to lye ratio in order to make the paste (no water involved yet). The lye and glycerin were heated together until boiling, and then removed from the heat once dissolved and immediately added to the oils.....

....and then once the paste was made, I took the weight of the paste and multiplied it by .75 to get my needed dilution water amount: i.e.,  1 part past to .75 parts water, which is the perfect dilution rate for this recipe as originally written (at least for my likes anyway).

But then sometime in the future I decided to change my method for dissolving the lye. Instead of dissolving 1 part lye into 3 parts boiling glycerin, which is fussy and carries with it a bigger danger factor, I decided to make things easier/quicker and also reduce the danger factor by first dissolving the lye in an equal amount of room-temp water by weight (which takes barely a minute and does not involve any cooking), and then adding in my original '3 parts' amount of glycerin to the solution before combining it all with my oils. This, in effect, changed the lye solution for my paste from 3:1 ratio to more like a 4:1 ratio.

Increasing things to a 4:1 water/glycerin to lye ratio up front in order to make my paste had the effect of changing my dilution rate later on for diluting the paste into soap in order to get the consistency I liked. Since my paste was now more hydrated/soft, I needed to use less dilution water than normal in order to get the same end-consistency I desired. Instead of using 1 part paste to .75 parts water, I now use 1 part paste to the lesser amount of .62 parts water to get that same consistency.     

I'm like Shunt- when adding my lye solution to oils, I just gently heat my oils/fats on low until melted and then add my lye solution. No need to heat the oils to 160F. You can if you want to, but that's overkill if you ask me. Mine only get to about 110F to 120F at the most.


IrishLass


----------



## Susie

Did you read the whole thread?  I think the amount of glycerin/water was covered quite adequately...more than adequately. in fact. 

Superfat and sodium lactate are NOT the same thing, at all.  Again, did you not read the entire thread? 

I would not use this as a body wash.  It is too thick undiluted, and too thin once diluted.  You would have to thicken this up with a commercial thickener.


----------



## amal

IrishLass said:


> Hi Amal- the recipe as originally written uses a ratio of 1 part lye to 3 parts liquid (i.e., a 25% lye concentration). If you use the amended recipe (see the notes in red in post #8) it's more like a 4:1 ratio (20% lye concentration).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds like you may have missed reading the notes (typed in red) that I added to my original instructions for making this liquid soap recipe in post #8 on page 1 of this thread. Here they are:
> 
> *[10/13/2016 Edited to add that I now mix my KOH /glycerin differently than the above. I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of room temp. distilled water and then add the normal/full complement of (room temp.) glycerin to the lye solution. Doing it this this way makes it so much easier/less fussy to dissolve the KOH. Instead of taking 8 to 10 minutes of cooking in boiling glycerin for the KOH to dissolve, it only takes as little as a minute, and no heating is required. Of course, doing it this updated way changes my dilution ratio because I have to account for the extra water I'm adding up front, but, no worries- I've got that figured out: my new dilution ratio is 1 part paste to .62 parts distilled water, instead of 1 part paste to .75 parts distilled water. To see how things proceed when using my revised method of making the paste, see here. ]*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No they do not do the same job. The job of a super-fat is to lessen the cleansing power of the soap, making it feel more gentle/ less drying to the skin. The job of the sodium lactate in this recipe is to help the paste to dissolve in a more timely fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> You can certainly use it as a body wash if you desire. There really is no difference between using it as a body wash or a hand soap..... it's soap afterall..... it'll get your hands clean as well as the rest you.  It will not lather as well as the typical body washes one can buy at the store, though, because those found in stores have lathering agents added to them such as SLS.
> 
> For what it's worth, I personally choose to use my liquid soap for only washing my hands, and my solid/bar soap for washing my whole body in the shower. I like using my bar soap in the shower as opposed to my liquid soap because my bar soap lathers so much better for me in the shower compared to my liquid soap.....and also because it lasts a lot longer-  I don't need to use as much of to get the lather I desire for an all-over body soap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you may be a little confused on this point, and I'm sure my having changed the method of dissolving my lye didn't help, but hopefully I can help clear things up:
> 
> My original instructions started with a 3:1 glycerin to lye ratio in order to make the paste (no water involved yet). The lye and glycerin were heated together until boiling, and then removed from the heat once dissolved and immediately added to the oils.....
> 
> ....and then once the paste was made, I took the weight of the paste and multiplied it by .75 to get my needed dilution water amount: i.e.,  1 part past to .75 parts water, which is the perfect dilution rate for this recipe as originally written (at least for my likes anyway).
> 
> But then sometime in the future I decided to change my method for dissolving the lye. Instead of dissolving 1 part lye into 3 parts boiling glycerin, which is fussy and carries with it a bigger danger factor, I decided to make things easier/quicker and also reduce the danger factor by first dissolving the lye in an equal amount of room-temp water by weight (which takes barely a minute and does not involve any cooking), and then adding in my original '3 parts' amount of glycerin to the solution before combining it all with my oils. This, in effect, changed the lye solution for my paste from 3:1 ratio to more like a 4:1 ratio.
> 
> Increasing things to a 4:1 water/glycerin to lye ratio up front in order to make my paste had the effect of changing my dilution rate later on for diluting the paste into soap in order to get the consistency I liked. Since my paste was now more hydrated/soft, I needed to use less dilution water than normal in order to get the same end-consistency I desired. Instead of using 1 part paste to .75 parts water, I now use 1 part paste to the lesser amount of .62 parts water to get that same consistency.
> 
> I'm like Shunt- when adding my lye solution to oils, I just gently heat my oils/fats on low until melted and then add my lye solution. No need to heat the oils to 160F. You can if you want to, but that's overkill if you ask me. Mine only get to about 110F to 120F at the most.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


thank you for your help
i have read the coment that include the recipe again and take my notes i found that there were things that i missed,but now itsw fine, i can get all the procedure and the quntaties



Susie said:


> Did you read the whole thread?  I think the amount of glycerin/water was covered quite adequately...more than adequately. in fact.
> 
> Superfat and sodium lactate are NOT the same thing, at all.  Again, did you not read the entire thread?
> 
> I would not use this as a body wash.  It is too thick undiluted, and too thin once diluted.  You would have to thicken this up with a commercial thickener.


i wasnt actually ,but now i did 
thank you for your reply


----------



## Claudsoap

Hey all,

Ive made liquid soap many times but thought i would try  IL recipe.  
I diluted with 62% h2o but it still formed a skin.  I added up to 70% and still not diluted.  Can you confirm my recipe is correct?  Also what soap calculator do most of you use?  I tried different ones with that all gave me a different recipe.

48oz weight in oil
3% superfat
20% Lye concentration

Olive oil 31.20oz
Coconut 12.0oz
Castor 4.8oz

Lye 10.58oz
H20 10.58oz
Glycerine  31.73oz

Cheers!


----------



## CreamyBubbles

Hi to everybody. (This is my first post)
I made this GLS last night (my first ever any kind of soap recipe) and I have some questions. 

But before that I want to thank you IrishLass for your CP method: it's the reason I finally did it, after a couple of months of trying to gather the courage having in mind the HP method... So thank you, it was extremely easy! And I used my plastic blender with no problems!

My first encounter with more serious info on soap making was after I bought the book "How to make your own soap" by Sally Hornsay, where she describes all types of soap making, but I was still not satisfied as I wanted a liquid cream soap, same as Dove shower cream, and the recipes there were for more like soap butter / shaving soap, not pourable cream soap. 

After I stumbled on the recipe here, I thought I will make smth like a hybrid between the GLS recipe and those more viscous type of creamy soap, so I thought I would add a little stearic acid to my paste (I only saw IrishLass creamy gls recipe after I finished making my paste ). So this is my recipe:
Olive pomace 11.2%
Coconut 20%
Castor 20%
Shea 10%
*Stearic acid 5%*
Ricebran 20.2%
Hazelnut 13.6%
Apart from adding stearic and messing with the oils, I followed the recipe accurately (3% superfat, water-lye ratio: 3-1, 3% sodium lactate, 0.75 water dilution). 
Oh, and I also added only 0.1% chelator (INCI: sodium phytate, water, alcohol; usage: 0.05-0.5%, ph ~3) after seeing the creamy gls recipe, since I didn't know how it will affect my batch pH wise, but I will add some more on a small batch and see what happens.

Firstly, I'm not blaming IrishLass's recipe for my fails (now I know I should have added the stearic at the dilution stage) but I'm asking for some advice/opinions about what do you think I should do to salvage this lot. I want to understand the mechanics of my mistakes.

I divided my paste into 4 lots to try different dilution percentages/fragrances etc. 

I'm in the stage of having my first lot of paste already diluted but: (1) has an awful color (a muddy yellowish/amber-ish color): (2) I think is too strong: as I used a bit I felt my skin really dry afterwards; (3) it's watery.

I saw in the gls creamy post that after about 12 hours, the liquid started to turn to an white opaque color due to the stearic. *Do you think I should wait some more to see if that happens?* I'm intrigued as I used more stearic (5%) and ... nothing!

*What could I do to make it more mild?* I can't do the dilution superfat as the only solubilizer I have access to (it doesn't have a name. INCI: Polyglyceryl-4 Laurate/Sebacate, Polyglyceryl-6 Caprylate/Caprate, Aqua) isn't in stock for some time and is really expensive as well. *And if I add more water (or maybe honey?) what can I use to make it thicker? *

*Do you think that not using a solubilizer would make my gls separate when adding EOs / fragrances?*

*And finally, what to do to the rest 3 lots of paste to make them better than this one?
*
Thanks a lot for the patience


----------



## DeeAnna

"...sodium phytate ... ph ~3 ... I didn't know how it will affect my batch pH wise..."

It won't change the pH of the soap much if at all. What it will do instead is break down some of the soap into fatty acids. This essentially increases the superfat.


----------



## amal

if i don't have a crock pot and wont follow carrie's canning jar method, how can i dilute my soap ???
can i cook it on the stove ? or add simmering water to it and blend ?
and how mush time would it take ?? @DeeAnna @Susie


----------



## DeeAnna

You can use a warm water bath (bain marie) instead of a crock pot. Or you can dilute at room temperature. I would not heat the soap paste and water directly over a source of heat. Yes, you can heat the dilution water if you like. 

Warmth will shorten the time to dilute the soap, but you have to pay more attention to the process. Room temperature dilution takes longer (maybe a day or two), but you don't have to worry about it.


----------



## Claudsoap

Hey all, is anyone able to check through my recipe I posted on #789? It would really be appreciated.

Cheers!


----------



## CreamyBubbles

DeeAnna, thank you for your response. Does anybody have any idea what to do to increase the mildness to my batch?


----------



## IrishLass

Claudsoap said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Ive made liquid soap many times but thought i would try  IL recipe.
> I diluted with 62% h2o but it still formed a skin.  I added up to 70% and still not diluted.  Can you confirm my recipe is correct?  Also what soap calculator do most of you use?  I tried different ones with that all gave me a different recipe.
> 
> 48oz weight in oil
> 3% superfat
> 20% Lye concentration
> 
> Olive oil 31.20oz
> Coconut 12.0oz
> Castor 4.8oz
> 
> Lye 10.58oz
> H20 10.58oz
> Glycerine  31.73oz
> 
> Cheers!



Hi Claudsoap!

I have always used *SummerBeeMeadows Advanced Liquid Soap Calculator* when making my liquid soaps.

This is what it gives me when I type in your recipe:






SummerBee automatically/by default calculates a 25% lye concentration on their calculator (lye x 3), as this is the concentration that usually works best when making liquid soap. However, if you are making the recipe I posted using my newer/reworked method of dissolving the KOH into an equal amount of water in weight and then adding the full complement of glycerin to it that I have always normally added, this essentially brings the lye concentration to 20% (i.e., lye x 4)..............so, with that in mind, based on Summerbee's amounts of lye and water, this is what my KOH, water and glycerin amounts would look like if I were making your batch: 

KOH: 10.2 oz (for a 3% superfat)
Glycerin: 30.6 oz
Water: 10.2 oz


IrishLass


----------



## amal

DeeAnna said:


> You can use a warm water bath (bain marie) instead of a crock pot. Or you can dilute at room temperature. I would not heat the soap paste and water directly over a source of heat. Yes, you can heat the dilution water if you like.
> 
> Warmth will shorten the time to dilute the soap, but you have to pay more attention to the process. Room temperature dilution takes longer (maybe a day or two), but you don't have to worry about it.


I can use a stick blender to shorten the time?? ?


----------



## IrishLass

CreamyBubbles said:


> I saw in the gls creamy post that after about 12 hours, the liquid started to turn to an white opaque color due to the stearic. *Do you think I should wait some more to see if that happens?* I'm intrigued as I used more stearic (5%) and ... nothing!



Hi CreamyBubbles! 

Yes- you can wait a few days to see how things progress. Oftentimes things don't turn opaque from the stearic until a few days have passed.

If it's still just a murky amber after a few days have passed, this is what I would do.....I would take your already diluted portion (i.e., your first lot) and mix in 3% stearic as per whatever the weight of the paste was for that lot, and then heat it together until the stearic is completely melted, then give it a good stick-blending to combine. Or you can heat them both separately and then combine when the stearic is melted and the diluted soap is at least as hot as your melted stearic.

This may be enough to kill 3 birds with one stone, i.e., enough to turn the soap opaque, enough to add some mildness to the soap so that it is less drying, and enough to make it thicker. The only thing I would be worried about is separation due to you not having any solubizer on hand, but it might possibly be that it won't separate for a little while at first. Only time will tell.     

You can store any leftover soap paste in a container in the fridge until you are ready to dilute them.


IrishLass


----------



## Susie

Claudsoap said:


> Hey all, is anyone able to check through my recipe I posted on #789? It would really be appreciated.
> 
> Cheers!



It looks OK on the surface (without running through a calculator).  I typically use .75:1 ratio water/paste.  If you are still getting a skin, you need more water...period.  You lose moisture every time you lift the lid, stir, etc.  Just add water in tiny amounts until the skin is gone, or pull the skin off to dilute separately.  Pour the already liquid soap into bottle(s).  I just add a tiny amount of water, run the stick blender through the mixture, and bottle.  But I learned using the above methods, so you get a feel for how much water.  Your choice.



amal said:


> I can use a stick blender to shorten the time?? ?



Yes, but be careful to burp it first, otherwise you get many, many bubbles!


----------



## CreamyBubbles

IrishLass said:


> Hi CreamyBubbles!
> 
> Yes- you can wait a few days to see how things progress. Oftentimes things don't turn opaque from the stearic until a few days have passed.
> 
> If it's still just a murky amber after a few days have passed, this is what I would do.....I would take your already diluted portion (i.e., your first lot) and mix in 3% stearic as per whatever the weight of the paste was for that lot, and then heat it together until the stearic is completely melted, then give it a good stick-blending to combine. Or you can heat them both separately and then combine when the stearic is melted and the diluted soap is at least as hot as your melted stearic.
> 
> This may be enough to kill 3 birds with one stone, i.e., enough to turn the soap opaque, enough to add some mildness to the soap so that it is less drying, and enough to make it thicker. The only thing I would be worried about is separation due to you not having any solubizer on hand, but it might possibly be that it won't separate for a little while at first. Only time will tell.
> 
> You can store any leftover soap paste in a container in the fridge until you are ready to dilute them.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Thanks a lot for your answer IrishLass and sorry for my grammar/spelling mistakes (I hope it's not too difficult to understand what I'm saying)

It's been about a week now, and no change to my first lot so I'm about to try to make it milder with stearic acid, and since I don't have any solubilizer (therefore risking for the whole thing to separate) I kept thinking to find another solution and I had this idea: 

1. I heat the diluted portion and stearic acid separately
2. I add an emulsifier to the 3% stearic acid
3. I combine the two.

What do you think? Could it work? Does it sound right to you?


----------



## IrishLass

It sounds like something I would try! 


IrishLass


----------



## Claudsoap

Hello!

Ive made dozens of batches of liquid soap. I recently followed IL's recipe perfectly.  However, my soap NEVER comes out thick as described.  Not even close.   I would love to know what Im doing wrong.  

I usually use Pomace but only had Pure Olive Oil on hand.  Also used a combo of Distilled water and Filtered as I ran out.  Regardless I never get thick soap, always very watery

This was my recent recipe

Olive Oil 12oz
Coconut Oil 31.20oz
Castor 4.80oz
Lye 10.2oz
H20 10.2oz
Glycerin 30.6oz

Lye Concentration 20%
Superfat 3%

This is how I dilute...

PASTE  divided by 38 equales____ x 62 = H20

Feed back would be great!


----------



## Meena

DeeAnna said:


> I second Susie's request -- I would be very interested in more info. Please, Irish Lass?
> 
> DeeAnna <- LS newbie



I third it:  LS is on my project list.


----------



## DeeAnna

Claudsoap said:


> ...This was my recent recipe
> Olive Oil 12oz
> Coconut Oil 31.20oz
> Castor 4.80oz



The bottom line is your recipe needs a lot more oleic acid. To make a decent soap that's reasonably thick only by dilution, the oleic acid content has to be around 50%. Your recipe has about 23% oleic acid. Irish Lass's recipe (see Post 8) has about 47% oleic acid. See the difference?



Claudsoap said:


> ....This is how I dilute...
> PASTE  divided by 38 equales____ x 62 = H20



So this formula tells me you're using 1.6 parts water to 1 part paste. You say your soap too watery. So why aren't you changing what you do and using less water?

When I use Irish Lass's recipe in Post 8 of this thread, I always use more paste than water. Even IL herself uses more paste than water with her recipe -- per Post 9, "...1 part paste to .75 parts water..."

The other aspect of diluting  liquid soap is that the dilution that works for one person's soap may not work for your soap. One batch of my paste may need less water than IL uses. And the next batch of my soap made with the same recipe may need more water. So you can't just dump the whole amount of water in and expect success. Add less than you think is needed and adjust from there.

Even with less water, the recipe makes a big difference. If you want use recipes that have a low % of oleic acid like the one above, you will _never _get thick soap by dilution alone. You will have to thicken low-oleic soap using a separate thickener such as HEC or HPMC. These thickeners do not depend on the oleic acid content and careful dilution to work properly.


----------



## Claudsoap

Sorry, I had my coconut oil and olive oil mixed up .  I was using IL's recipe.  

I think I have it figured out.  Can you tell me if this is correct?  

Olive oil 31.20oz
Coconut Oil 12oz
Castor 4.8oz

Lye 10.2oz
H20 10.2oz
Glycerin 30.6 oz

Diluation @ 62%

Paste weight 77.21oz multiply by .62 = 47.87oz H20

Cheers!


----------



## DeeAnna

Okay, now that you've got the story straight, my only advice is that you need to begin diluting with less water  and work up from there. You need to figure out what dilution works for YOUR soap, not mine and not IL's. Other than that, just ignore the rest of my blather.


----------



## Carl

DeeAnna said:


> Okay, now that you've got the story straight, my only advice is that you need to begin diluting with less water  and work up from there. You need to figure out what dilution works for YOUR soap, not mine and not IL's. Other than that, just ignore the rest of my blather.



Your "blather" was actually very helpful for me.

Thanks!

The topic of this post is "Soapmaking 101 video"

If you watch the video, she puts a lot more water in than paste (I think it's 3:1 water to paste).  When I initially read Irish Lasses post #8 and #9, I assumed a typo on the .75 and didn't realize she was actually using less water than paste.

I think you cleared this up for me!


----------



## Claudsoap

If I dont want to use glycerin and H20 only @ a 20% lye concentration, but still use the 65%-25%-10% as per IL's recipe.  How would this change my dilution rate?  
I say this because water is cheaper than glycerin.  And extra time to trace doesn't bother me.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

DeeAnna said:


> You need to figure out what dilution works for YOUR soap, not mine and not IL's.


TIP: You know you have used the correct amount of dilution water when the batch forms a skin on the top. Stir in just enough more water to incorporate the "skin" and you're there. Of course, this tip only works if you take good notes.   Be sure to  weigh your container as well as the paste and water amount.


----------



## DeeAnna

Claudsoap said:


> If I dont want to use glycerin and H20 only @ a 20% lye concentration, but still use the 65%-25%-10% as per IL's recipe.  How would this change my dilution rate?



You will have to try it and see. I have made IL's recipe with all sorts of combinations of water and glycerin, including all water. I don't recall huge differences in the dilution rate, but I expect some variation from batch to batch. I don't pay a lot of attention to the numbers anymore, to be honest, so I can't give you hard info. I start diluting with 1 part water to 2 parts paste and add water from there until I don't have chunks or a skin anymore.


----------



## IrishLass

Carl said:


> Your "blather" was actually very helpful for me.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> The topic of this post is "Soapmaking 101 video"
> 
> If you watch the video, she puts a lot more water in than paste (I think it's 3:1 water to paste).  When I initially read Irish Lasses post #8 and #9, I assumed a typo on the .75 and didn't realize she was actually using less water than paste.
> 
> I think you cleared this up for me!




I do see how the confusion came about. Although the thread did start out with Soapmaking101's video, it evolved from there into a thread revolving around 3bees~1flowers's formula (the formula that all my posts are based upon).

Yep- I use much less water vs paste. I've never used all water for the entire recipe, but if you do, it's like DeeAnna said, start with a dilution rate of 2 parts paste to 1 part water (or 1 part paste to .5 parts water, whichever way you look at it) and _slowly_ work your way up from there until there's no more of a skin forming on top.

And as Zany said- remember to take good notes! Jot down how much water you add each time until the skin disappears so you have a baseline from which to work for next time. Some dilutions might turn out a little thicker or thinner depending on whatever minor variable, but the difference is so small that its negligible, at least for me.


IrishLass


----------



## Claudsoap

Hey All ,
I made IL's recipe and it turned out perfectly, the method was so much easier than anything I had done in the past! Zap test and all! 
The only thing that's different is that my soap is not amber in color, but rather a light yellow.  Also not quite clear as a bell either.  Im curious as to why?!  Thank you in advance!


----------



## Kathy Heiner

Hey, nice to see that you made this! I just watched that video a couple of days ago. Glad to hear how easy it is. I have not made it yet, but based on what I remember from the vid, didn't she say that if it's not cloudy when you do the water test, then it's done? Wondering if it cooked a little bit longer if it would be more amber? So while yours is a pale yellow in color, it does look to be clear in your pic. So it should be good.  It is a beautiful color!


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> You will have to try it and see. I have made IL's recipe with all sorts of combinations of water and glycerin, including all water. I don't recall huge differences in the dilution rate, but I expect some variation from batch to batch. I don't pay a lot of attention to the numbers anymore, to be honest, so I can't give you hard info. I start diluting with 1 part water to 2 parts paste and add water from there until I don't have chunks or a skin anymore.



Sounds quite familiar!  Good to know I'm not the only one.


----------



## Susie

As long as the color isn't dark brown/black (meaning you burned something), whatever color you get is fine.  Your color will depend on your oils.

Clarity does not indicate doneness.  Zapless paste does.  Always, always, always test your paste.  Clarity also depends on oils used.


----------



## IngridK

I keep on gently cooking until I get a clear test. I usually dilute about a teaspoon to a third cup of distilled water. As far as thinning goes; I just keep on, keeping on adding water in small quantities until I get no lumps and no skin... I am sure that environment, humidity, ingredients all play a part in how much water you need for each batch. Making good soap is as much art as it is chemistry.


----------



## Ann-juma

Hi everyone would like to share what I’ve done IrishLass recipe
 1 Castor Oil 200 grams
2 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 500 grams
3 Olive Oil 1300 grams
KOH 443.50 gram in 445 ml Distilled Water
 glycerin 888 grams added to the oils in crockpot 80Celsius

Zap test OK

added stearic Acid while diluting (stove top dilution @85C)
Stearic Acid 60 grams
Amazing group of people, wish if you had a facebook group


----------



## Dahila

the soap is beautiful.  Just in case you add the fragrance and it gets cloudy,  wait few days, My soap cleared up beautiful . It took a week or so


----------



## Susie

I add fragrance while the soap is still warm, not hot, to a bare finger.  Never had a cloud up last over 4 hours yet.


----------



## Dahila

Susie is so good you are back <3


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Susie said:


> I add fragrance while the soap is still warm, not hot, to a bare finger.  Never had a cloud up last over 4 hours yet.


I do the same thing, only I do it after dilution. I usually make a gallon at a time, then pour different FOs/EOs into 8 oz. Boston Round plastic containers. For 8 oz., I warm the LS for 45 seconds in the microwave, add 2.5 mls or so of fragrance in, stir, then pour into the container -- sometimes I add food coloring, but not always. I add a drop of color to 10 mls water to thin it, then add by drops until it's where I like it.


----------



## DeeAnna

A person certainly can add scent to the bottle as Zany describes, but I'll add a caution to that advice --

If you're using a fragrance (FO or EO or both) that you're not familiar with, it's always good to test the scent in a sample of soap first. Quite a few fragrances have no effect on the soap, but some will thicken the soap, some will thin it, and some will cause texture changes -- the soap can become chunky or stringy.

Thickness and texture changes happen often enough that it's not a smart idea to assume all will be well and charge forward into adding scent to a large amount of soap especially if it's already in bottles.


----------



## Susie

^^^What DeeAnna said!  Always, always, always test before committing yourself to a bottle full of soap.  I generally pour a couple of ounces into a Pyrex measuring cup and add a proportionate amount of EO or FO into it.  I give it a couple of hours before scenting a bottle full.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

DeeAnna said:


> -- the soap can become chunky or stringy.


Just want to add "thin" as well.


----------



## Carl

2.5 ML (AKA 1/2 TSP) seems like a small amount.
I don't know the volume to weight conversion for the oils.

I've been using .25 OZ (by weight) for an 8 oz Boston Round bottle.

Maybe I'm using too much?  But it doesn't seem too strong.  I understand this could vary by oil, etc.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Carl said:


> 2.5 ML (AKA 1/2 TSP) seems like a small amount. ... I don't know the volume to weight conversion for the oils.


Excellent point, Carl! I use volume measurement to fragrance soaps because there's less waste... EO/FO squirted from a pipette directly from the bottle into the container not only wastes less fragrance, but it's just easier and faster to do. Most soapers (IME) use volume measures (mls or teaspoons) for small quantities. But that's just me. 

There is no "volume to weight" conversion cuz, as you pointed out, FOs/EOs vary in weight. The only way to do that would be to weigh each and every FO/EO you use. 


Carl said:


> I've been using .25 OZ (by weight) for an 8 oz Boston Round bottle.  Maybe I'm using too much?  But it doesn't seem too strong.  I understand this could vary by oil, etc.


Whatever works for you is what you should do. Let your nose be your guide... unless, of course, you exceed IFRA guidelines.


----------



## Mandymaz

Hi all,
After many years I am back with my second batch. I re-read most of the thread, followed IrishLass’s recommendations, including dissolve KOH in water then add glycerine. I had a brain fart and used tap water instead of distilled. But the soap seems to have worked. The paste feels like soap, it smells like soap, looks like soap paste. No zap when I tested.
I will be diluting in the next few days/weeks, when I have time. For now here’s a pic of my paste. I got a total of 2.659kg (5lb 13.8oz)


----------



## lsg

Looks good.


----------



## Rsapienza

Excellent thread. Many thanks to Irish Lass, DeeAnna, and Susie. I am happy to report that I finally attempted GLS using IrishLass's 1st recipe and it was a SUCCESS!!! So fast, so easy. I even got the little bubbles floating up in the air (I think I heard life music at this point...LOL). Again, thank you ladies for all that you do. Y'all are amazing!


----------



## Tamara Cetkovic

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting. I've been a member for almost 2 years but I haven't been active as in these 2 years I've been focused more on formulating skincare products (lotions,gels, serums, etc) rather than making soap, even though I started out on this whole skincare journey by making soap due to numerous skin problems that surfaced during my pregnancy 15 years ago. 
Anyway, I have always been cp or hp soaper but after coming across this thread, reading through it and seeing the photos of everyone's gorgeous LS, I got a serious itch to try it. So I finally took the plunge and followed the recipe IrishLass had posted using the cp method and 1 part water to 2 parts glycerine, and I just have to say...OMG! I'm in love! A HUGE THANK YOU to IrishLass and her detailed description of the methods. Also a huge thank you to Susie and DeeAnna and everyone else who so kindly took the time to explain and help with troubleshooting on this thread! 
When I made the LS, I used a stick blender and I ended up blending/stirring all the way to the thick applesauce stage, until my blender could not move the batter anymore. At first I though I botched the batch because first it took a long time to see a change, then I saw some bubbles but no flying bubbles, then the rest of the stages passed so quickly that I wasn't sure if they were actually the stages mentioned, so I continued blending until suddenly it turned to applesauce. I had to continue mixing manually with a spatula to make sure it was homogenous but I was worried I overblended it since it looked nothing like the beautiful clear taffy-like texture I saw in the photos. 
I decided to cover it and leave it alone and sure enough, by the evening, it looked like taffy. Yay! I can't even begin to express how excited I was 
I diluted the LS following IrishLass's instructions again and sure enough, it turned to clear liquid gold, the consistency of honey. I even filled some lip balm tubes with the soap paste like Susie's brilliant soap2go idea!  Thanks again IrishLass, Susie and DeeAnna for making this such a fantastic experience


----------



## IrishLass

Awesome! It looks great! 


IrishLass


----------



## Tamara Cetkovic

IrishLass said:


> Awesome! It looks great!
> 
> 
> IrishLass


Thank you


----------



## Zany_in_CO




----------



## Tamara Cetkovic

Zany_in_CO said:


> View attachment 45425


Thank you


----------



## Susie

Well done!  It wasn't nearly so hard as some people on the internet make you think, was it?


----------



## Ellacho

Wow! That looks amazing!


----------



## KimW

Susie said:


> Ok, one thing at the time.
> 
> First off, most of your questions can be answered with a little research in the forums here.  Get familiar with the search option, or better yet, Google.  I Googled the following:  soapmaking forum zap test guide and got this-
> 
> The Zap Test: A Visual Guide
> 
> It is a sticky on the CP forum.
> 
> Second, it sounds to me like you need to do a whole lot more research before you start making anything.  Your stick blender(immersion blender) is fine.  I would not recommend you use a whisk for bringing things to trace.  Your arm will get really tired.
> 
> Third- the castor oil is the correct stuff.
> 
> Fourth- you don't need Sodium Lauryl  Sufoacetate.  At all.  Some more experienced soapers use it, but it is not necessary.
> 
> Fifth- you don't have to use poly 80 or vit E to preserve this.  Make small batches until you know what you are doing.
> 
> Sixth-here is the soap calculator I use for almost everything.  Use the KOH 90% options at the top to account for the impurities in the KOH.
> 
> SoapCalc
> 
> Last- you need a whole lot more research before making any liquid soap.  If you have not made bar soap, you need to do that first before venturing into liquid soapmaking.  You need to learn the lingo and the processes.  If you have made bar soap, I apologize, but it does not sound like it.  Do go to the cold process area of these forums and read every sticky before venturing further.  If you have made bar soap, and are now ready for liquid soap, here is a video to get you started:
> 
> [ame]



Susie - I do apologize for asking a question on such an old thread.  Why do you say no preservative is needed to store this recipe?  I'd love to make a LS without adding preservatives, but every recipe I've used highly suggests preservatives for any amount that is stored for later use, and most suggest it even for the amount used immediately.  I've read the procedure in this fantastic recipe, but can't see anything in the procedure that hints at not needing to add a preservative to the amount that is stored and not immediately used.  Thanks in advance, very much!


----------



## Susie

I don't use preservatives.  At all.  I dilute as I need it.  Once I make paste, I put it into a Ziploc bag or container and stick it on my soaping cart until needed.  I had some diluted soap I kept and checked via microscope routinely for over two years before I saw ANY kind of microorganism.  So, unless you are selling or using something other than water or glycerin to dilute it, you simply don't need a preservative.  Just dilute what you will use in some sort of reasonable time frame.  Save the paste for later dilution.  I divide mine up in 16 oz packages for later dilution.  That serves my household for about 6-8 weeks depending on how many visits I get from the kids.


----------



## KimW

Thanks, Susie!


----------



## IrishLass

I don't use preservatives in mine either. Like Susie, I've kept certain dilutions of my formulas under observation for a little over 2 years and they never came down with a case of the nasties, nor did they develop any off-smells. 

I should mention that I don't sell my soap. If I did, though, I _would_ use a preservative because you just never know how a customer is going to treat the soap once they get it home, such as opening it up to add more water to it in order to get more mileage out of it, and things of that nature-  the kind of stuff I never do to my liquid soap, because that would introduce nasties into it.

I do the same as Susie with my paste ......i.e., once my paste is made, I dilute as much as I will use up in a reasonable amount of time and store the rest in a Ziploc bag.....only I keep mine in the fridge. Not that it's necessary to refrigerate it, mind you. It's just something I've always done with my paste from the get-go.


IrishLass


----------



## KimW

IrishLass said:


> I don't use preservatives in mine either. Like Susie, I've kept certain dilutions of my formulas under observation for a little over 2 years and they never came down with a case of the nasties, nor did they develop any off-smells.
> 
> I should mention that I don't sell my soap. If I did, though, I _would_ use a preservative because you just never know how a customer is going to treat the soap once they get it home, such as opening it up to add more water to it in order to get more mileage out of it, and things of that nature-  the kind of stuff I never do to my liquid soap, because that would introduce nasties into it.
> 
> I do the same as Susie with my paste ......i.e., once my paste is made, I dilute as much as I will use up in a reasonable amount of time and store the rest in a Ziploc bag.....only I keep mine in the fridge. Not that it's necessary to refrigerate it, mind you. It's just something I've always done with my paste from the get-go.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


Thank you!


----------



## Susie

The pH of the liquid soap is too high to allow most pathogens to grow.  Having said that, I do use due caution and care when making soap.  Everything I use is clean, water is distilled and from a closed container.  I keep my paste tightly covered once it is made.  I just don't invite the yuckies to the party.


----------



## KimW

KimW said:


> Thank you!


I made this soap and it's fantastic.  Thank you SO much for sharing, and especially for the video!  
One question:  When my soap was still warm, about 98F, it was still translucent.  But, once it completely cooled to 76F, it turned cloudy.  No other issues.  Lather and scents are still great.  Any idea why the cloudiness would happen after cooling?  Here are two pics.  FYI - I used water from our reverse osmosis system, because the nearest distilled water is in town 20 miles away.   Thank you, again!!


----------



## Tamara Cetkovic

Susie said:


> Well done!  It wasn't nearly so hard as some people on the internet make you think, was it?


Thank you and sorry for replying so late  I haven't been active in a loooong time!
No, actually, it wasn't so difficult...and it was fun too   I did do my research beforehand, though, and made sure I was well prepared and organised before attemting it.



Ellacho said:


> Wow! That looks amazing!


Thank you so much


----------



## DeeAnna

_"...Any idea why the cloudiness would happen after cooling?..."_

One possibility is some of the soap is crystallizing into small solid particles as the mixture cools. It's the same process that happens when fudge crystallizes as it cools. If the soap passes the zap test, cloudiness is purely an esthetic issue, not a safety problem.

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the particles that cause cloudiness are mostly crystals of stearic and palmitic soap molecules. The lower the stearic and palmitic acid content in the recipe, the less likely the soap will be cloudy. For example, I have made LS with a high % of lard in the past, and it was permanently cloudy.

The coconut-olive-castor recipe that IrishLass has shared with us is usually nicely clear for me when diluted. If your LS is based on this same recipe, the problem might be slight differences between the fatty acids in your fats versus mine.

Another possibility is unsaponifiable content from the fats that may cause temperature-sensitive clouding. And last but not least, scents -- EOs and FOs -- and other additives such as salts can sometimes cause cloudiness.

Hard to say what it is for sure.


----------



## melinda48

IrishLass said:


> Okay- to continue.......
> 
> To dilute, I use Carrie's canning jar method. It's easy and it prevents evaporation as your're diluting:
> 
> A) I heat up some water to simmering in a large soup pot (enough water to come up the sides of my (wide-mouth) canning jar without making the jar float). Also- I stick a round cake cooling rack in the bottom of the pot so that my canning jar won't be in direct contact with the pot's bottom.
> 
> B) While the pot of water is coming to a simmer, I weigh out my paste (dried foamy head and all) into an appropriate-sized canning jar, i.e., one that will accomodate my paste and dilution liquid with enough room to spare for stickblending purposes, and set aside.
> 
> C) I weigh out my dilution water and my sodium lactate and add them together into a separate pot (using the dilution rate of 1 part paste to .75 parts water, and 3% sodium lactate as per weight of my paste)*[*See edited note in post #8 under procedure #3].* I bring this mixture to a boil then immediately pour it over my waiting paste in my canning jar.
> 
> D) Then I cover the the jar tightly with its matching lid, give it a shake, then place the jar into the large soup pot of simmering water to warm and soften things up.
> 
> E) After about 15-20 minutes or so I take the jar out, wipe the water/condensation off the jar, then I open it so I can stick a clean knife inside to stir things around and test how soft the paste has become. If it's as soft as jam/jelly, I hit it with my stickblender for a minute or so of on and off pulsing until there are no more lumps, but if the paste is not soft enough to my liking yet, I'll just cover it back up and let it sit in the simmering water about 10 minutes more and check again before deciding to stickblend or not.
> 
> I need to mention that when I hit it with the stickblender, the contents turn an opaque milky white color. This is normal and only temporary.
> 
> F) Once it has been stickblended, I squeegee off as much soap as I can from the stickblender back into the jar, cover with the lid, and stick the jar back into the pot of hot water (off the burner this time). If all goes as planned, the soap will clarify over the next few hours from the bottom up and turn into clear liquid soap with a foamy head on the surface.
> 
> G) Re: the foam: The foam eventually dissipates if I let it sit long enough (the warmth of the water helps greatly with this), but sometimes when I get impatient I'll spritz the foam with a spray or 2 of alcohol periodically to help the foam to dissipate in a more timely fashion. I try not to over-do the alcohol,though, because I don't want it to thin my soap out. I've read of people just skimming the foam off, but because I hate waste, I like to let it sit and dissipate to become part of the main body of soap.
> 
> H) When the soap is foam-free enough to my liking, I partition off as much as I would like to scent and bottle at that time, and I store the rest in the canning jar at room temp for later use.
> 
> I) When I add scent, I make sure to also add an equal amount of PS80 as per the amount of scent so that the scent will not separate out of my soap. I mix the scent with the PS80 and then stir the mixture into the soap. If it looks like the soap is clouding up from the scent at all, I'll just add more PS 80 drop by drop until all is clear again. Thankfully, that doesn't happen but once in a blue moon.
> 
> The finished soap is quite lovely, thick, and crystal clear:
> View attachment 28474
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a shot of it outside held up to the sky:
> View attachment 28475
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My suds:
> View attachment 28476
> 
> 
> 
> IrishLass


Thank you for always being so willing to share your successes and processes! I learn every time I read one of your posts!!


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## Tara_H

Hope it's ok to revive this thread!  It seems to have been going on for many years now (I read about the first 25 pages), so hopefully this isn't a massive faux pas...

I'm looking for a second opinion on a batch I've tried according to the method being discussed in this thread.  I had done a couple of previous batches in the hot process way and they came out pretty ok, although I had a high tallow content and they tended to separate over time into distinct layers.

I was curious to try a cold process method since I have plenty of patience and would rather use a recipe that doesn't involve a lot of heat and hovering 

The recipe I used was:
44.35g KOH + 44.35g water to dissolve
133.05g glycerine (I may have gone wrong here, I went back and forth on whether I needed to subtract the water from the glycerine but in the end I didn't)

130g olive oil
50g coconut oil
20g castor oil

After dissolving the KOH I let it get back to room temperature then mixed it in with the glycerine.  The result was completely clear and just a little syrupy.
The oils were just above room temp as well (our kitchen tends to be on the chilly side, 18C/64F approx) so that the coconut oil was just about liquid.

Using the stick blender it quickly went quite thick and transparent, then thinner and more opaque, which sounded like what I had read in the early posts here, so I was encouraged.  I blended it for a few seconds at a time over what must have been 20 minutes or half an hour, but I never got any 'flying bubbles' or sudden thickening again.  It seemed pretty well emulsified though, so I left it for about 2 hours, checking on it periodically.

It thickened very slowly over the course of the evening, but by the time I had to go to bed it was still like thin honey in consistency and appearance.



At that point I did a zap test (I've only ever tried it on previous soaps after I was pretty sure it was finished so was also curious to experience a zap  ) and I definitely felt it!  I decided to leave it overnight and let it do its thing.

By this morning a lot of it had set quite hard and almost brittle, and there was a lot of liquid on the top.  I was able to break it up easily with the spatula.



I was wondering if maybe the oils were setting up a bit, so I put it in the microwave to heat it very slightly then zapped it with the stick blender.  It very quickly changed to something which looked like trace (literally blobs of thick opaque batter were appearing where the blades of the blender were)



I left it for a bit while I had my coffee (still early here!) and it was starting to get transparent again when I went back.  At that point I got out the hand whisk and moved it about a bit, and the batter got very creamy looking, but still not much thicker.



I did a zap test and got no zap at all, just a slightly sweet taste, presumably from the glycerine.

My confusion here is that I was expecting paste like I got for my other batches of liquid soap, and like everyone else got with this recipe!  Given how thin this batter is, it should be super easy to dilute, but I'm a bit hesitant to do that just because it's so different from what I was expecting.  On the other hand, if it's not zapping then presumably it's done all of the saponifying it's going to do and should be safe to use.  So I'm wondering if the potentially excessive liquid I used right at the beginning could be the cause?  If so it seems like a positive outcome, given that my objective was a recipe that didn't involve too much messing about. (assuming I could do this again without all the poking and worrying over it )

Would appreciate any and all thoughts on whether I should just go ahead and dilute this or if there's something else I haven't thought of.


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## Tara_H

After sitting on it a bit longer this morning and still no change I tried a dilution test - 25g of this batter + 15g of distilled water in a jar and mixed them together gently.  It seemed to make literally no difference so I sat it on the warm stove for a bit and kept checking.  It's now separating out a little, there's a slightly darker and clearer layer appearing on the bottom of the mixture.

It's making me wonder if maybe what I have is basically a very thick lather!  I really hope this is the case because the bottom layer is a lovely pale gold colour, which is exactly what I was looking for, and another reason I didn't want to cook the recipe a lot.




Kind of chatting to myself here, but I may as well post the outcome in case anyone is interested 

The sample ended up settling down nicely so I'm diluting the full batch at the same percentage.  Once it's diluted and the suds are gone it's a very beautiful pale yellow colour, exactly what I was hoping for!



The rest of it is taking a lot longer to fully dilute but the part that's done is very similar.



I'm really curious now if it would have been fine without the additional messing around this morning.  Certainly it was a lot easier to dilute when it was still liquid, and the outcome seems to be the same.  I'm quite tempted to try another batch by just putting it away and leaving it for a while, but I'll need to wait to get more glycerine.


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## DeeAnna

I haven't read your posts with full attention today, but I did look at the photos. I suspect the "foam" you mention is actually an excess of fatty acids and/or fats.

If you leave the soap to sit quietly for some time, the white layer will dissipate if it's simply foam. You might be able to accelerate the breakdown of any foam by misting the layer with alcohol.

The layer will not dissipate if it's fats or fatty acids. If the layer seems stable, dip a fingertip into the white material, rub it into the skin, and rinse the skin with cool water. Don't rub the skin while rinsing and don't dry the skin -- the point is to remove any water soluble stuff but not remove any fatty stuff. If your fingertips feel slightly oily or the skin have visible traces of fatty material, that's an even better proof the layer is excess of fatty acids and/or fats.


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## Tara_H

Thanks @DeeAnna for looking at my ramblings!

I'm pretty convinced at this point that it really is foam on the top; it settles down over time and every time I swirl it up it settles down again faster.  Here's a close up of the sample that I diluted first thing this morning, the white on top is all bubbles:


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## Zany_in_CO

Tara_H said:


> I'm looking for a second opinion on a batch I've tried according to the method being discussed in this thread.


Not to worry. You haven't done anything wrong. It's just that your query could get buried in this thread rather quickly. You would receive more replies if you started a new thread in the *RECIPE FEEDBACK* Forum.  
You can reference back with a link to this thread.


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## DeeAnna

Tara_H said:


> ...I'm pretty convinced at this point that it really is foam on the top...



It's good you're getting comfortable evaluating your soap. It's hard to tell sometimes from a photo. I thought I'd mention the fatty acid alternative just in case that was happening to you.


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## Tara_H

DeeAnna said:


> It's good you're getting comfortable evaluating your soap. It's hard to tell sometimes from a photo. I thought I'd mention the fatty acid alternative just in case that was happening to you.


Thanks, I hope I didn't come across as not valuing your input!  I've definitely filed the info away in case it comes up in future.



Zany_in_CO said:


> You would receive more replies if you started a new thread in the *RECIPE FEEDBACK* Forum.



Oh, cheers!  I tend to lurk in only very specific areas of the forum for some reason so I wasn't familiar with that bit.  Will bear it in mind for next time


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## Cheeky Goat

Thank you for commenting on this thread, I see I have a great deal of reading to do!


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## Nibiru2020

The SBM Calculator leaves a lot to be desired.   No way to change from ounces to grams, etc., when using the "advanced" calculator.  The standard calculator does have the grams option... the "advanced" one does not.  Definitely not a "USER FRIENDLY" calculator.  For me it gives wacky numbers way out of line compared to the Soapmaking Friend calculator associated with this site.

That is why I really appreciate the work that went into making the Lye Calculator for this website here at the top of the browser page on the right.


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## Nibiru2020

So... I just made my first trial batch of cold process liquid soap.  It was a convoluted process for me to say the least, at least getting it to saponify.
At first, I thought after 12-15 minutes of blending that I had reached a thin trace... nope!  Second, after sitting for an hour and still a liquid I then re-blended it with the stick blender.  Finally a trace.  Let is sit for about 3 hours... nothing happened at all. Sooooo.... I cheated.
I put it into a 190° F oven for 3 hours and then stirred it vigorously with a SS whip.  Finally, about another 4 hours later in an insulated bag it saponified and was at about a pH of 9.5.  Checked with the phenolphthalein drops too, and all was good.  Diluted with a 62% distilled water weight to paste ratio and 3% of paste weight Sodium Lactate.   These are two photos of it.  I will let it sequester for a week or so and see if it clears up more.  Last night is was cloudier, but this morning it looked about a 30% improvement.

At least it didn't turn an amber color.  I will try this recipe as a hot process glycerin soap as soon as I get more KOH.










Recipe is:

Castor Oil -     80 grams
Coconut Oil - 131 grams
Olive Oil -       230 grams
Distilled water - 301.3 grams 
KOH @ 90% Purity - 100.43 grams
Veg. Glycerin - 301 grams

Mixed water and glycerin together prior to adding KOH flakes.  Stirred well until dissolved, about 3 minutes at room temperature.
Blended KOH / Glycerin / Water mixture with heated oils.  KOH mixture was about 135° F and oils were about 140° F. 

I probably should have had a higher temp for the oils... say around 180° F or so.  
The temperature during blending leveled off to around 127° F or so.  I definitely should have had my oil and lye mixture temps higher to speed up the blend to a state of trace.  Irish_Lass never mentioned those temps... if my memory serves me correct.

I am open to suggestions, comments, criticisms, etc.    

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Sky King and Penny are warming up the Song Bird for another exciting adventure!  Yeehaw!


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## HoliHealerz

Susie said:


> Thick liquid soap without use of thickeners would be an awesome thing for me!


I dont use glycerine, rather I didnt on my one attempt.  Only tallow (1O0%).  It comes thick but I dilute more.  Its  VERY thick.  I was actually afraid of the glycerine feel that I really hate.  Maybe I'm wrong.



Nibiru2020 said:


> So... I just made my first trial batch of cold process liquid soap.  It was a convoluted process for me to say the least, at least getting it to saponify.
> At first, I thought after 12-15 minutes of blending that I had reached a thin trace... nope!  Second, after sitting for an hour and still a liquid I then re-blended it with the stick blender.  Finally a trace.  Let is sit for about 3 hours... nothing happened at all. Sooooo.... I cheated.
> I put it into a 190° F oven for 3 hours and then stirred it vigorously with a SS whip.  Finally, about another 4 hours later in an insulated bag it saponified and was at about a pH of 9.5.  Checked with the phenolphthalein drops too, and all was good.  Diluted with a 62% distilled water weight to paste ratio and 3% of paste weight Sodium Lactate.   These are two photos of it.  I will let it sequester for a week or so and see if it clears up more.  Last night is was cloudier, but this morning it looked about a 30% improvement.
> 
> At least it didn't turn an amber color.  I will try this recipe as a hot process glycerin soap as soon as I get more KOH.
> 
> View attachment 54799
> 
> View attachment 54800
> 
> 
> Recipe is:
> 
> Castor Oil -     80 grams
> Coconut Oil - 131 grams
> Olive Oil -       230 grams
> Distilled water - 301.3 grams
> KOH @ 90% Purity - 100.43 grams
> Veg. Glycerin - 301 grams
> 
> Mixed water and glycerin together prior to adding KOH flakes.  Stirred well until dissolved, about 3 minutes at room temperature.
> Blended KOH / Glycerin / Water mixture with heated oils.  KOH mixture was about 135° F and oils were about 140° F.
> 
> I probably should have had a higher temp for the oils... say around 180° F or so.
> The temperature during blending leveled off to around 127° F or so.  I definitely should have had my oil and lye mixture temps higher to speed up the blend to a state of trace.  Irish_Lass never mentioned those temps... if my memory serves me correct.
> 
> I am open to suggestions, comments, criticisms, etc.
> 
> Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Sky King and Penny are warming up the Song Bird for another exciting adventure!  Yeehaw!


Looks great.  My first and only took around 5 hours constandly standing and fearing it would do something like explode.  You did good.  Mine is white.



DeeAnna said:


> PS80 = Polysorbate 80?
> 
> Irish Lass -- Your tutorial took a lot of time and effort to write, and I appreciate your thoroughness and thoughtfulness. Thank you so much for sharing. I, for one, have learned a lot and plan to try Carrie's recipe and your method. Wonderful!


I second that notion.  Really it was thorough, took a lot of love and time and is multitudinally appreciated.


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## Zany_in_CO

@HoliHealerz  Um, you are responding to and thus reactivating a thread that is a year old. No worries. Common rookie mistake.


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## HoliHealerz

Zany_in_CO said:


> @HoliHealerz  Um, you are responding to and thus reactivating a thread that is a year old. No worries. Common rookie mistake.


I am continually doing this.  I never seem to learn.


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## IrishLass

No worries- it is perfectly okay to reactivate old threads. We have no rules against it. 


IrishLass


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## Zany_in_CO

IrishLass said:


> it is perfectly okay to reactivate old threads. We have no rules against it.


@IrishLass (With apologies to the OP for the hijack) That's good to know!   
So the *Ban on Necroposting* has been lifted? I'm asking because myself and a few other members make the effort to gently encourage new members to start a new thread when we notice it. So should we now back off doing that?

Also, if you don't mind my asking, I'm wondering what the status is on the *Ban on Shampoo Bars* and similar lye-based shampoos. Is that still forbidden? I'm asking because there seems to be a friendlier atmosphere around the subject lately. I have a few recipes to share and I want to make sure they aren't promptly deleted as has happened in the past. ☺ TIA


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## LynetteO

Zany_in_CO said:


> Also, if you don't mind my asking, I'm wondering what the status is on the *Ban on Shampoo Bars* and similar lye-based shampoos. Is that still forbidden? I'm asking because I have a few recipes to share and I want to make sure they aren't promptly deleted as has happened in the past. ☺ TIA


Did you post the recipes you mentioned wanting to share in another place? You may not be writing a book but I have a special place for all things Zany!


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## Catscankim

Zany_in_CO said:


> @IrishLass (With apologies to the OP for the hijack) That's good to know!
> So the *Ban on Necroposting* has been lifted? I'm asking because myself and a few other members make the effort to gently encourage new members to start a new thread when we notice it. So should we now back off doing that?


I think the problem is the newer "similar threads" that appear at the bottom of the page. I know about necroposting, but stuff appears down there in the similar threads, it seems like that it came from a new post, question, or similar. So I think that it is not the persons fault for responding to it. It just looks like its an active topic.

No need to reprimand someone for thinking that they did something that was "banned". Its just there. I have done it myself thinking it was a recent topic...

Whenever I have done something outside of the forums rules, I got a private message from a moderator.


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## Zany_in_CO

With apologies to @Catscankim this post has been deleted. I'm sorry it came across as offensive. My sincere intention was to agree with the statement. As you said, I missed the point.


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## Zany_in_CO

LynetteO said:


> Did you post the recipes you mentioned wanting to share in another place?


Not yet. Actually, I forgot all about it!


LynetteO said:


> You may not be writing a book but I have a special place for all things Zany!


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