# when do you add superfat?



## trent (Sep 4, 2013)

I've been using castor oil as a superfat and I add it after I mix the oil and lye. The last batch a made traced real fast and it was a race to get it into a mold. I barely got the pigment in and I completely forgot the castor oil. Is it okay to add the superfat with the rest of my oil? I'd like to use cocoa butter, can I melt it with the rest of my solids? Logic tells me that no matter when I add it, it won't saponify because there isn't enough lye, but sometimes my logic is faulty. Any input would be appreciated.


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## jenneelk (Sep 4, 2013)

I think most all do it as part of their recipe. Are you adding in a superfat % when calculating your recipe?  Or are you calculating it on your own and leaving it at 0?
Some will add a bit more at trace but IMO I don't see the difference for the reason you stated about saponifying.


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## sistrum (Sep 4, 2013)

Yes you can add it with the rest of your oils.  The only time you can choose what oil stays as super fat is to add it to HP after its fully cooked.  But that will mean your soap can go rancid as soon as that oil goes bad since its not soap just oil.

I would recommend taking some time and search around the past topics there is a ton of info back there.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 4, 2013)

I add all my oils and butters in together. When doing CP soap you can't pick which oils will be your superfat.  The lye makes that decision for you and will take whatever it wants and what's left is your superfat.   Even if you were to add them in after trace the lye is still active.


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## Robert (Sep 4, 2013)

trent said:


> I've been using castor oil as a superfat and I add it after I mix the oil and lye. The last batch a made traced real fast and it was a race to get it into a mold. I barely got the pigment in and I completely forgot the castor oil. Is it okay to add the superfat with the rest of my oil? I'd like to use cocoa butter, can I melt it with the rest of my solids? Logic tells me that no matter when I add it, it won't saponify because there isn't enough lye, but sometimes my logic is faulty.


Do you want it to hydrolyze, do want it to not hydrolyze, or do you care at all?

I'm not actually sure whether lye reacts catalytically or only stoichiometrically.  They refer to "alkaline hydrolysis" meaning alkali-catalyzed hydrolysis, but each equivalent of f.a. reacted with should neutralize an equivalent of lye.  Yet I've also been told by one soaping expert that while the saponif'n is going on, the alkali do react catalytically, splitting more moles of fatty acid than they would on an equivalent basis.  If there's a transition from catalytic to stoichiometric rxn, I'm not sure when it occurs, i.e. what visible physical state the stuff in the pot would be in at that point.


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## trent (Sep 4, 2013)

I haven't started figuring %'s yet, I'm following recipes. I just started looking at SoapCalc and am ready to start making my own recipes (I think), I just haven't seen anything specific on when to add superfats, and I like to be specific. Please forgive my neophyte questions, but I'm still learning.


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## trent (Sep 4, 2013)

sistrum said:


> I would recommend taking some time and search around the past topics there is a ton of info back there.



I did a forum search, "when to add superfat" and got nothing.  I'll try harder next time before I post a question.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 4, 2013)

Trent, just figure all your oils into the calculator.  Then decide what percentage of superfat you would like your recipe to have and enter that as well in the superfat field on the calculator.   I generally superfat betweet 5-8 percent except with 100% Coconut oil soap then I superfat at 20%.


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## sososo (Sep 4, 2013)

*shunt2011* has given you the best answer, I think: "_When doing CP soap you can't pick which oils will be your superfat.  The  lye makes that decision for you and will take whatever it wants and  what's left is your superfat.   Even if you were to add them in after  trace the lye is still active._"
If you choose 0% superfat this means that all lye and all oils will be consumed in the saponification reaction. If you choose, let's say, 5% superfat this means that all the lye will be consumed and 5% *of total oil amount* will remain unconsumed. Now, here comes my question: is 5% remaining unconsumed *of each and every oil *in the recipe? Or, maybe, some oils will be "attacked" faster than others?


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## jenneelk (Sep 4, 2013)

Good questions sososo.. I think people who add extra oil at trace believe something to this effect?  I think the oils that tend to trace faster are also the one that are 'attacked' faster but that is just something that makes logical sense to me and I have no scientific backup to say it might be true.


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## Candybee (Sep 4, 2013)

I don't HP I just do CP. So I work my superfat % into my recipe before I start making my soap. If you are using soapcalc it defaults to 5% superfat which is a good number to start with since you are a beginner. Superfatting at higher or lower %'s is something you'll want to try out once you have a few batches and want to experiment.


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## judymoody (Sep 4, 2013)

I measure out all of my oils up front for the reasons you suggest - you needn't worry about forgetting it or not incorporating it fully should a fragrance misbehave.

Lye is still very active at trace and is unlikely to discriminate between what you've included from the outset and what you add at trace.

If you want the qualities of a particular oil to be present in the finished soap, then you might want to try the hot process method and add the SF oil after cook when saponification is complete.


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## sistrum (Sep 4, 2013)

trent said:


> I did a forum search, "when to add superfat" and got nothing.  I'll try harder next time before I post a question.



I Agee this form has the worst search program I've ever seen!  I didn't mean search for this question in particular just when you have some time take a look back.  You'll get a lot more answers from a lot of experienced soapers that have moved on.

It's a shame the search program is the way it is.  It's such a waste of good info.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 4, 2013)

"...Or, maybe, some oils will be "attacked" faster than others?..."

You have the right idea, Sososo. The lye will react with all the fats in a CP soap, but it will react more completely with some than with others.


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## sososo (Sep 4, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> The lye will react with all the fats in a CP soap, but it will react more completely with some than with others.


Do you know which are "some" and which are "others"? It would be very useful for us to know...


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## DeeAnna (Sep 4, 2013)

No, I don't, I regret to say. I'd appreciate knowing that too.

My opinion is the results would vary a lot, depending on the recipe ingredients and on the other variables in the soap making process (gel/no gel, stick blend/hand stir, additives such as color, botanicals, etc.)

You would basically have to make a soap and analyze the residual fatty acids that are present after saponification and make some reasonable guesses about the fats from which the fatty acids came. It is impossible even for industrial soap makers to analyze for a specific fat, since every fat is made up of a variable blend of fatty acids. The only reasonable test of residual fat (aka superfat) in a finished soap would be an indirect one -- measuring the fatty acids. 

Some fatty acids would be easy to link to the fat they come from. Ricinolenic acid (from castor oil) is a prime example. If it is present in the "superfat" in a higher ratio than it is in the original fat blend used to make a soap, that would tell you that the lye reacted with less of this fatty acid than with others. You could then conclude that castor oil is present in a high proportion in the soap's superfat. 

But analyzing for other fatty acids might give results that are not especially helpful. For example, if you found more palmitic acid in the finished soap than in the original blend of fats used to make the soap, you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell what fat it came from. The palmitic acid might come from several oils in the recipe that normally have even a little bit of palmitic acid. Did the palmitic acid come from the coconut oil, the palm oil, or even the olive? Hard to say.

Kevin Dunn (Scientific Soapmaking) did some controlled experiments to evaluate whether adding "superfat" oils at trace had any effect on the actual fats remaining in the finished soap. To accomplish his experimental goals, he had to use odd blends of fats that a soap maker wouldn't normally use. These unusual blends were chosen to limit the types of fatty acids present in the finished soap, so he could do the analytical work reasonably easily and cheaply. His conclusion -- adding superfat at trace has little or no effect.

A long rambly answer to your short question, Sososo. I hope it helps.


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## savonierre (Sep 4, 2013)

I add them to the other oils, it is too easy to forget them.


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## Robert (Sep 5, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> You would basically have to make a soap and analyze the residual fatty acids that are present after saponification and make some reasonable guesses about the fats from which the fatty acids came. It is impossible even for industrial soap makers to analyze for a specific fat, since every fat is made up of a variable blend of fatty acids. The only reasonable test of residual fat (aka superfat) in a finished soap would be an indirect one -- measuring the fatty acids.
> 
> Some fatty acids would be easy to link to the fat they come from. Ricinolenic acid (from castor oil) is a prime example. If it is present in the "superfat" in a higher ratio than it is in the original fat blend used to make a soap, that would tell you that the lye reacted with less of this fatty acid than with others. You could then conclude that castor oil is present in a high proportion in the soap's superfat.
> 
> But analyzing for other fatty acids might give results that are not especially helpful. For example, if you found more palmitic acid in the finished soap than in the original blend of fats used to make the soap, you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell what fat it came from. The palmitic acid might come from several oils in the recipe that normally have even a little bit of palmitic acid. Did the palmitic acid come from the coconut oil, the palm oil, or even the olive? Hard to say.


But why would you care?  If it's the fatty acids that give the soap its properties, what does it matter which f.a. came from which oil you started with?  If someone has data saying that if you start with such-and-such proportions of fatty glycerides (i.e. as potential fatty acids in the starting material) and saponify under these conditions, this f.a. gets released in this percentage, that f.a. in that percentage, etc.--aren't those the data you want?

But again, that matters only if you care whether the superfat winds up the way it started (as glycerides) or as fatty acid + glycerin.  I don't honestly know which is nicer to skin or hair.  (Then there are some who say it's actually the unsaponifiables that have the most beneficial properties, whether you superfat or not.)


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## Obsidian (Sep 5, 2013)

I saw a page some where that showed which oils saponified the fastest, I'll have to try and find it again.


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## pamielynn (Sep 5, 2013)

I really think it would be easier if soapmakers thought of "superfat" more as a "lye discount". I believe the amount of lye you need to properly saponify your fats should be calculated on 100% of the fats you're using, THEN figure out how much of lye discount you'd like to take. Less monkeying around and no forgetting about adding in that last 4 oz (or so) of oil. Truly, you don't get to choose which oil "superfats" in a CP batch.


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## JaimeM (Sep 5, 2013)

Trent, are you adding extra castor oil to a recipe, or holding back the castor oil from the recipe to add at the end? Your recipe should have the lye discount/superfat already figured in. Your extra castor may be extra-superfatting your soap.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 5, 2013)

Reaction rate isn't necessarily going to tell you what fats are going to be left over in a finished soap made with a blend of oils. It seems logical that an oil that reacts faster with lye should be all "used up" by the lye when making soap, but the situation is less like a race on a race track (the fastest one wins) and more like a free-for-all fight in a bar.


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## Bann51 (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm new at this also, but I have learned a couple of things. One is I like castor oil and I add it in my oils. I have read that too much castor oil can accelerate trace. You might want to check your recipe to see how much castor you are using. If you are using soap cal as mentioned before and put in 5 % then you've got your superfat. If you're a beginner like I am, it's better to use a lye calculator and set it at 5% superfat so you don't have to do any math!  From what I've read you shouldn't go over 5% of castor because of it's ability to accelerate.  Do some people use more, I'm sure they do, but remember being a newby has it's advantages. Using recipes found in reputable books and sites is the best way to go, then start forumating your own recipes.


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## Robert (Sep 5, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> the situation is less like a race on a race track (the fastest one wins) and more like a free-for-all fight in a bar.


If I ever teach a chemistry course again, I'm going to have to remember this metaphor for the difference between kinetic & equilibrium considerations.  I'm thinking about the molecules slugging it out, breaking bonds, bleeding electrons....  Look out, this one's swinging a chair (6-member ring conformation)!


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## jennikate (Sep 5, 2013)

I like the lye discount way of looking at it. I HP but just so I dont forget anything I still factor in 5 % discount and all oil goes in together. Good luck .


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