# Lye Fumes



## AustinStraight (Mar 17, 2014)

What exactly _are _the fumes?  I've noticed "fumes" coming off of the lye solution, but I'm honestly starting to think it's just water vapor.  I was on a soap-making video where the soap-maker urged others to keep a safe distance from the lye pitcher because it would give off fumes.  Someone commented and said that sodium hydroxide + water creates heat, and the fumes are really just water vapor, perhaps with a small amount of sodium hydroxide.  

This forum makes me even more confident that the fumes are just water vapor.  One chemist on that thread said, "If it's NaOH in water you shouldn't get any fumes at all, unless you are  dumping mass quantities of NaOH into a small amount of water, and then  perhaps you might get aqueous NaOH in water droplets vaporizing."  What do you guys think?


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## osso (Mar 17, 2014)

The fumes are potent and can be caustic. Ventilation is a must.


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## Obsidian (Mar 17, 2014)

I think its more then just water vapor. I've accidentally breathed in the fumes before and its painful. It burns the sinuses and causes coughing.
The link to the other forum doesn't really answer the question at all, more guesses then anything.


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## AustinStraight (Mar 17, 2014)

That's the thing... I wish I had the equipment to see what exactly it is.


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## AnnaMarie (Mar 17, 2014)

I caught a whiff of these fumes one time, and I'll never forget it. It was only brief, but it made me cough enough to respect its toxicity. Water vapor my foot. I have a water vaporizer for colds and those fumes don't make me cough.
Cheers!
Anna Marie

Oops! I mean water humidifier.


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## jenfrat (Mar 17, 2014)

Definitely more than water vapor.  The fumes burn the mucous membranes and are an irritant.


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## lpstephy85 (Mar 17, 2014)

Yeah, I remember when I caught my first inhale of lye fumes. I coughed for a good five minutes. Now when I mix, I cover my mouth and nose with a cloth until my water is clear. I don't care what is in the vapors, all I know is that it is something that should not be in you.


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## jade-15 (Mar 17, 2014)

AustinStraight said:


> One chemist on that thread said, "If it's NaOH in water you shouldn't get any fumes at all, unless you are  dumping mass quantities of NaOH into a small amount of water, and then  perhaps you might get aqueous NaOH in water droplets vaporizing."  What do you guys think?



Thats the answer.
We ARE dumping mass quantities.

At one stage I saw NaOH available in a molar solution - and 6 mol solution (which is stronger than is allowed in high school chemistry) requires 240g/L.
Quick look at soapcalc and we are making lye solution around 11M (using 38% water).  Incredibly strong, what I would call mass quantities.

Also, initially I found my lye water/milk was not heating up as I slowly added my lye to solution... then I watched some videos and my 'slowly' is very different to the videos.  To me, "slowly" meant like in chemistry, add a spoonful, stir until almost dissolved, and repeat... the videos did it more like "slowly" in cooking.  Started doing this and I got fumes as well as heat.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 17, 2014)

Water VAPOR by definition is not visible -- you'd have to be able to see individual molecules in order to see actual water vapor. The visible MIST rising from your lye solution is a cloud of tiny droplets of the sodium hydroxide solution, not just water vapor.


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## Neve (Mar 18, 2014)

Even the slightest whiff of that stuff has me coughing. It really irritates my throat so I usually wear the mask as well as have the exhaust on full blast and have then jug as far away as I can while I'm doing the oils.


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## Silverwolf (Mar 18, 2014)

The reason the vapor is so nasty is because it's a aqueous solution of naoh, basically your inhaling lye water which of course is a irritant.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 18, 2014)

As others have said, it's semi-gaseous lye solution!  Imagine how that would feel on the inside of your throat.  Now imagine when you have a deep cold and you put your head over some steam with some nice healthy things in there.  Now image those two things together...................................but without the healthy things in the steam!


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## karenbeth (Mar 18, 2014)

It's very dangerous and could cause serious lung problems if you don't take precautions


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Mar 18, 2014)

Those fumes are nasty and make me cough horribly. Now I freeze ALL of my liquids into ice cubes and don't get any fumes at all when I mix them with lye.


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## AustinStraight (Mar 18, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses   It still doesn't make much sense to me though... minerals are separated from water by distilling the water (evaporating the water & capturing the water vapor), you wouldn't think there would be lye in the water vapor.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 18, 2014)

"...minerals are separated from water by distilling the water (evaporating the water & capturing the water vapor), you wouldn't think there would be lye in the water vapor...."

Wrong. 

First off, you are assuming "hard water" compounds in water behave the same as sodium hydroxide in water. It is incorrect to think these two solutions will behave identically. For one thing, magnesium and calcium compounds in hard water are extremely dilute. The NaOH solution we make for soap is highly concentrated, as Jade pointed out.

Second, your chemist acquaintances are apparently not well read on the physical properties of NaOH solutions. The vapor pressure of NaOH in solution is low -- 1.5 mmHg @ 68°F for a 50% solution* -- but it is NOT zero. This means there will indeed be sodium hydroxide vapor in the air above any solution of sodium hydroxide. Vapor pressure goes up as the solution concentration increases and as temperature increases, so a hot concentrated NaOH solution such we make for soaping will have a higher NaOH vapor pressure, compared to a cool dilute NaOH solution. *See http://www.dow.com/causticsoda/offer/physical.htm

Third, evaporation is not the only method of transporting material from the liquid phase into the gaseous phase. In the case of making a lye solution for soap making, Jade is right -- we're dumping large amounts of NaOH in water and getting a large, fast evolution of heat. This is generating MIST as well as VAPOR. A mist is a mass of liquid droplets, not individual molecules. The mist from a hot lye solution is even more of a health hazard than the vapor.


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## jenfrat (Mar 18, 2014)

DeeAnna-as a former chemistry teacher can I say that I love to read your responses.


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## AnnaMarie (Mar 18, 2014)

jenfrat said:


> DeeAnna-as a former chemistry teacher can I say that I love to read your responses.



You've just outed yourself! Now we know who else to bother for scientific input
Cheers!
Anna Marie


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## AustinStraight (Mar 18, 2014)

Wow!  Thanks, DeeAnna!


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## grayceworks (Mar 18, 2014)

And for a demonstration of the caustic nature of the fumes which does not involve inhaling -- which I can assure you from experience is a 'Very Bad Idea' to quote Jurassic Park -- just take a look at the aluminum vent filters in your stove hood after a few months of making your lye-water on the stove with the vent fan running lol


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## grayceworks (Mar 18, 2014)

On a side-note... anyone have suggestions on good healthy-making  things to inhale with steam?


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## FlybyStardancer (Mar 19, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> And for a demonstration of the caustic nature of the fumes which does not involve inhaling -- which I can assure you from experience is a 'Very Bad Idea' to quote Jurassic Park -- just take a look at the aluminum vent filters in your stove hood after a few months of making your lye-water on the stove with the vent fan running lol



Ugh oh... I should probably stop mixing my lye-water there, then... (Even though it needs to be replaced anyways.) It's just that it works SO WELL as a fume hood to keep me safe!


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## DeeAnna (Mar 19, 2014)

Some tips gleaned from my days in the chem lab --

Add the lye to the water very, very slowly.
Keep the lye container covered with a LOOSE fitting lid. Anything made of lye-safe materials will do -- food wrap, a plate, etc.
Use a tall narrow container rather than a shallow wide one.
Choose a lye container that is a generous size so there is a lot of "head space" above the lye solution. Here's what I use: http://accupitcher.com/Accu-Pour-products.html


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## uteg (Mar 19, 2014)

what do you mean ''loose fitting lid'' ?


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## DeeAnna (Mar 19, 2014)

Uh, well, a "loose fitting lid" means any covering that cannot hold pressure within the container. Food wrap or a plate will work. A screw-top lid that is just barely screwed on. Something like that.

Make sense?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 19, 2014)

Something that just rests on top, rather than actually securely closes the container.


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## AustinStraight (Mar 19, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> On a side-note... anyone have suggestions on good healthy-making  things to inhale with steam?



Not sure if this is what you mean, but... When I get a stuffy nose, I like to put one drop each of peppermint, eucalyptus, and rosemary (or 2-3 drops of an essential oil blend for breathing) on a bowl of steaming hot water & inhale the steam (with a towel over your head to make it like a mini-sauna).  Then I blow my nose and feel all better :-D You could use any skin-safe essential oil that way if you just wanted to enjoy the benefits of the essential oil in a different way.


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## jules92207 (Mar 19, 2014)

This is sort of along the same lines - I made a goats milk soap last night and since the goats milk is frozen I don't really get fumes but I noticed after I poured my goat milk/lye into the oils then put the bowl that had the milk/lye mixture in my soapy water/vinegar mixture it smelled super awful for about 30 seconds - is this normal? 

The smell did not stay long and the curing soap smells good with my eucalyptus spearmint fo so I don't think the soap was ruined or anything - it just caused me some concern.


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## grayceworks (Mar 19, 2014)

AustinStraight said:


> Not sure if this is what you mean, but... When I get a stuffy nose, I like to put one drop each of peppermint, eucalyptus, and rosemary (or 2-3 drops of an essential oil blend for breathing) on a bowl of steaming hot water & inhale the steam (with a towel over your head to make it like a mini-sauna).  Then I blow my nose and feel all better :-D You could use any skin-safe essential oil that way if you just wanted to enjoy the benefits of the essential oil in a different way.



Peppermint, and rosemary I have. Don't have any eucalyptus... hmmm. Trying to get rid of the beginnings of a cold and be able to breathe better. I have menthol crystals that I got to use in foot lotion. Wonder if they're ok dissolved in water and turned into steam...


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## DeeAnna (Mar 19, 2014)

Yes, Jules, sometimes Milk or beer or whatever can be a little stinky when mixed with lye. I think your soap will be perfectly fine!


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## jules92207 (Mar 19, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> Yes, Jules, sometimes Milk or beer or whatever can be a little stinky when mixed with lye. I think your soap will be perfectly fine!



Thank you, DeeAnna!


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## AZJen (Jul 19, 2019)

grayceworks said:


> And for a demonstration of the caustic nature of the fumes which does not involve inhaling -- which I can assure you from experience is a 'Very Bad Idea' to quote Jurassic Park -- just take a look at the aluminum vent filters in your stove hood after a few months of making your lye-water on the stove with the vent fan running lol



After a day of research, I wanted to make soap. And then I found this thread. I used lye-based drain cleaner a few times years ago and thought it was absolutely awful. I'd hate to make a business or hobby of anything that smells so bad. 

Also, I think not as a renter (I do not want to replace expensive components of someone else's home) with a bird, a cat, and my own health to protect--unless there's a way to prevent the toxicity and corrosion. 'MagicalMysterySoap' said ice cubes help. Have you tried them? 

The only location in my apartment that makes sense to me is a bathroom with the vent on and door closed, but there are probably metal fan blades in the wall that could rust, and there are metal fixtures throughout the bathroom. Additionally, the bathroom may take a while to completely air out. A WWII style vapor filter may protect my lungs, but the bathroom may be unusable for a day?



MagicalMysterySoap said:


> Those fumes are nasty and make me cough horribly. Now I freeze ALL of my liquids into ice cubes and don't get any fumes at all when I mix them with lye.



After a day of research, I wanted to make soap. And then I found this thread. The ice cube idea is encouraging, but I don't have space for ice cube trays. Maybe just refrigerated water would help enough. Or water put in the freezer for a while. I don't know how long it would take a quart or so of water to freeze, but 4-12 hours in the freezer seems maybe a good range to test.


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## Relle (Jul 19, 2019)

Jennifer Everett said:


> After a day of research, I wanted to make soap. And then I found this thread. I used lye-based drain cleaner a few times years ago and thought it was absolutely awful. I'd hate to make a business or hobby of anything that smells so bad.
> 
> Also, I think not as a renter (I do not want to replace expensive components of someone else's home) with a bird, a cat, and my own health to protect--unless there's a way to prevent the toxicity and corrosion. 'MagicalMysterySoap' said ice cubes help. Have you tried them?
> 
> ...



Jennifer, this thread is over 5yrs old and graceworks who you are asking questions to, hasn't been here for 2 yrs, so probably won't see this. The best idea is to start a new thread asking what you need to ask linking to this old thread. Most people in the old posts are no longer here, the date of the posts are in the left hand side of the posts. It's best to stick with current threads, not old ones.


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## newlee (Jul 19, 2019)

I mix my lye water outside at arm's length. Since I make small batches (10ozs of oil), I don't need to stir. I just swish the mixture around and it dissolves pretty quickly. And I leave it outside, except for today-too hot.


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## Kiti Williams (Jul 20, 2019)

I use crushed ice for my lye solution.  It helps keep the excess heat down and makes for a faster batch to trace.  I got this tip from a YouTuber, Soap 101.  She has quite a few videos up for beginning Soapers.


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## cmzaha (Jul 20, 2019)

Waiting to see if you start a new thread, then I will leave my answer


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## IrishLass (Jul 20, 2019)

Jennifer Everett said:


> After a day of research, I wanted to make soap. And then I found this thread. I used lye-based drain cleaner a few times years ago and thought it was absolutely awful. I'd hate to make a business or hobby of anything that smells so bad.
> 
> Also, I think not as a renter (I do not want to replace expensive components of someone else's home) with a bird, a cat, and my own health to protect--unless there's a way to prevent the toxicity and corrosion. 'MagicalMysterySoap' said ice cubes help. Have you tried them?
> 
> ...





cmzaha said:


> Waiting to see if you start a new thread, then I will leave my answer




Being brand new to the forum, Jennifer may not know exactly how to start a new thread yet....

Jennifer, when you click into any of our subforums, such as the Lye Based Soap Forum that we are in here at the moment,  up at the top right of the page you'll see a little brown box that says, "Post New Thread", which I've circled below:







Just click on that, type the title that you'd like to name your thread in the title box, then post your whatever you'd like to say in the main text box area, then hit the Post button as normal.

For what it's worth, lye fumes are only volatile and smelly when the solution is first mixed with the water and things are really hot. When cooled down there are no fumes or smell. You'll be able to use the room you mix your lye in the same day once aired out. It doesn't take long if you've got some ventilation going on.

Also for what it's worth, I've been making soap for 13+ years and so far all my metal fixtures are fine wherever I've mixed my lye, such as in my bathroom with the vent fan on, on top of my stove with the vent hood fan on, and in my garage right next to my parked truck and washing machine/dryer.... and all are well- there's been no corrosion.......even though I don't use ice cubes. I just mix my lye in room temp water.  

If you'd like to mix your lye with ice cubes, but have no room ice cube trays, just buy a bag of ice at the grocery store. It's pretty inexpensive.


IrishLass


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## AZJen (Jul 20, 2019)

I don't see where to start a new thread.... Oh, I see now that someone posted instructions. Will read that reply now!



IrishLass said:


> Being brand new to the forum, Jennifer may not know exactly how to start a new thread yet....
> 
> Jennifer, when you click into any of our subforums, such as the Lye Based Soap Forum that we are in here at the moment,  up at the top right of the page you'll see a little brown box that says, "Post New Thread", which I've circled below:
> 
> ...



My page is not showing a 'Post New Thread' button above the page numbers. Perhaps it's because I have a basic membership. But people are replying to this thread. So, maybe it's not necessary to create a new post?

Thank you greatly for the additional information, IrishLass! (Btw, I didn't realize I could use a handle when I entered my full name, but I don't see how to change that now.)

I'm happy to hear that you've not experienced any noticeable corrosion, and it seems that if I refrigerate my soap alongside food (no money for a spare fridge, even a mini one), I may not poison myself with lye vapors. My nose is pretty sensitive, though, so if I notice anything off once the soap is made, it will just have to cool outside of the fridge--perhaps placed on top of something cold.

I've read that distilled water is ideal. I'm not sure of the water used to make bagged ice.

And since I haven't made ice cubes in many years, I just Googled the time it takes: 3-4 hours. If I want to stick with distilled water and make cubes, I could use up all of my frozen bread or put it in the refrigerator for 4ish hours while freezing enough cubes for a large master batch of lye dilution. Or I could just use a jar of water and bring it close to freezing.

I'm thinking that I'd like to use a thick glass container (large bowl, large beer mug, 1/2 gallon canning jar, etc.) using ice cubes either outside or in a bathroom with vent on since I don't open windows this time of year with it being 108-114 degrees outside. I might be able to swirl the ice and lye outside and forego a spoon, but I am still concerned about heat. If not using ice, I've read that the lye solution can reach 200 degrees. Perhaps ice would result in a barely warm solution. I'd hate for so much heat to be generated that the canning jar would break or be too hot to hold and swirl.

I've read that saponification during the first 1-3 days also produces heat, but I don't know how much to expect with room temp oils and a lye solution produced with ice cubes.

For long-term room temperature (80+ degrees this time of year) storage of the solution, I'm not sure if a plastic Ball canning jar lid would create a tight enough seal. The other other option would be a metal canning jar lid.


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## cmzaha (Jul 20, 2019)

Okay, my answer, if you can set a fan in the kitchen facing away from your work area, mix your lye solution in the kitchen sink. It is the safest and all you need to do is cover your nose and mouth for a few seconds, which about how long the fumes last. I mix 1-2 gallons at a time and am not bothered with fumes, in fact, I do not cover my nose, but do not get it down near the bucket. 

Absolutely Do Not mix lye solution in a glass container, it will /can etch the glass causing the glass to eventually break. Also the more you move lye solution containers the more chance of an accident. If you are beginning I would not use Ice, it is hard to tell if the lye is fully dissolved. You can put your container in the sink into an ice bath to hasten cooling.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 20, 2019)

Jennifer Everett said:


> My page is not showing a 'Post New Thread' button above the page numbers. Perhaps it's because I have a basic membership. But people are replying to this thread. So, maybe it's not necessary to create a new post?...



You're not seeing the "Post new thread" button because you're not in the right place -- you're looking at _an existing thread_. You have to go to the forum index before you can create a _new thread_ in the forum.

Go here to the lye-based forum index -- https://www.soapmakingforum.com/forums/lye-based-soap-forum.11/  -- and then you will be able to follow Irish Lass's instructions.







***

Yes, you really should start a new thread. It's a point of etiquette on SMF to not revive older threads. Other forums are different, so it's not a universal rule, but it's strongly preferred here.


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## AZJen (Jul 20, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> Okay, my answer, if you can set a fan in the kitchen facing away from your work area, mix your lye solution in the kitchen sink. It is the safest and all you need to do is cover your nose and mouth for a few seconds, which about how long the fumes last. I mix 1-2 gallons at a time and am not bothered with fumes, in fact, I do not cover my nose, but do not get it down near the bucket.
> 
> Absolutely Do Not mix lye solution in a glass container, it will /can etch the glass causing the glass to eventually break. Also the more you move lye solution containers the more chance of an accident. If you are beginning I would not use Ice, it is hard to tell if the lye is fully dissolved. You can put your container in the sink into an ice bath to hasten cooling.



If I don't start with ice, how hot would the initial solution be? I fear that the jar would crack if placed into an ice bath. I've heard that some soapers' solutions are reaching 200 degrees (near boiling). Maybe that's because they're starting with melted/heated oils. And I'm guessing that if yours is not volatilizing for more than a few seconds, you're using room temperature oils and water. If the solution is hot, the danger would remain for much longer?

I have read that etching of glass only occurs if the solution heats up quite a bit (to the 200 or so degrees that many soapers are working with). If I'm starting with ice cubes or ice cold water, the risk of that may be close to zero? Having not done this even once, I don't know how hot the solution will become if starting with cold water. 

I have a cat and parakeet that might be affected by even small amount of vapors which is the main reason I'm thinking to use ice cold water or ice itself. And if not outside, to close the bathroom door and turn on the vent for potentially several hours (costly electricity so hopefully it won't take that long).



DeeAnna said:


> You're not seeing the "Post new thread" button because you're not in the right place -- you're looking at _an existing thread_. You have to go to the forum index before you can create a _new thread_ in the forum.
> 
> Go here to the lye-based forum index -- https://www.soapmakingforum.com/forums/lye-based-soap-forum.11/  -- and then you will be able to follow Irish Lass's instructions.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the additional instructions! I also needed to be logged in for the button to appear.



Kiti Williams said:


> I use crushed ice for my lye solution.  It helps keep the excess heat down and makes for a faster batch to trace.  I got this tip from a YouTuber, Soap 101.  She has quite a few videos up for beginning Soapers.



Thank you!



newlee said:


> I mix my lye water outside at arm's length. Since I make small batches (10ozs of oil), I don't need to stir. I just swish the mixture around and it dissolves pretty quickly. And I leave it outside, except for today-too hot.



Thank you! 

I need to start a new thread instead of replying more here, though.


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## Relle (Jul 20, 2019)

Locked


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