# Castile 95%NaOH 5%KOH calculations help



## earlene

DeeAnna said:


> To make a soapmaker's classic castile that lathers  nicely, lasts a long time, and only requires a 4-6 week cure --> use  100% olive oil, whatever lye solution concentration you prefer, the  usual 5% superfat (lye discount), and a blend of 95% NaOH and 5% KOH  (potassium hydroxide).





DeeAnna said:


> The KOH makes the soap more soluble in water. Thsi  means the usual stringy oleic soap gel doesn't form as easily with a  KOH-NaOH castile as it does with a castile made with NaOH only. I won't  debate the "cure faster" issue -- all I will say is if you want to make a  true castile (100% olive oil) and would like it to last a long enough  time, make lots of nice lather, and be mild to the skin after a more  typical 4-6 week cure, then try using the mixed lyes.



I really want to try this, but I  am having a very hard time trying to adapt my [50% lye] masterbatch to say, a 40% lye concentration, particularly with the added KOH.

Using  the advanced search I have been unable to find any answers to this  question.  It doesn't mean they are not here, but I just cannot find  them.

I think I can do the calculations for a 40% concentration easily enough with just NaOH, but with a 5% KOH and 95% NaOH, how would I do this?  I am at somewhat of a loss.  Do I use the NaOH water and ignore the KOH water recommendations?  Or is there a formula for figuring out how much water for the KOH separate from the amount needed for the NaOH, thus having to add the two together?

Well this is how far I have gotten so far:

95% NaOH for this 32 ounces of OO = 110.9 grams
5%  KOH = 9.1 grams (per Soapee)  Or is it 8.1 grams (I get 8.1 if I use the 0.713 number as the divisor in this post)

That's about as far as I get, because I don't know where to go with the water.

Soapee says to use 179.9 grams of water total.  Okay, so if I do that, then here's what I will do with my 50% masterbatch:

221.8 grams of 50% Lye solution
69 grams of additional distilled water
9.1 grams of KOH  (per Soapee)    BUT other calculations lead me to 8.1 grams  (1.403 as a multiplier or 0.713 as a divisor)

Both MMS & SummerBeeMeadow also come up with 8.1 grams KOH, so I am thinking 8.1 grams is correct and not the 9.1 I get in Soapee  (or maybe that's because the KOH is set at 90% purity in Soapee?)

Which of these numbers correct for the KOH?

Is the additional water amount correct, and how does one determine that for a mixed lye soap? 


~ ~ ~ ~
Also at one point I think I found a post where someone (don't remember who, but I think it was one of the more sciene-minded members) posted a little chart about how to figure out how much water to add to a 50% lye pre-mix (masterbatch) solution to come up with respective concentrations.  I believe it listed them like for 40% add, for 35% add, like that.  Anyway I can't find it now and I thought I bookmarked it.  So perhaps it was my imagination.


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## TheDragonGirl

Usually I do mine as a ratio of lye to water so like 1:1 1:1.5 1:2 1:3, if I'm not mistaken you want something like 1:1.5 for the concentration you're considering, so it would be the full weight of both of the lyes together X 1.5, and that's your water.

Edit: pardon, so basically you would calculate how much is already in there via 1:1 on the first lye, then subtract that from the new number, and add whats left to your solution


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I would also look at making two 50% solutions, based on the amount of each lye needed, then just use extra water to get it to a 40% solution water amount based purely on the NaOH. With just 5% KOH, the difference in actual grams of water won't be massive


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## ngian

Well DeeAnna has motivated me too these days with the Dual Lye Castile, and I'm planning to make one with some old olive oil (that I want to get rid of) and actually add a little of coconut.

Here is my recipe:

Olive: 95% - *475gr*
Coconut: 5% - *25gr*
Water (38% Lye Concentration): *114,8gr*
NaOH 95%: *64.8gr* (purity 98%)
KOH 5%: *5,5gr* - (purity 85%)
Lye Discount: 2%

This is what an excel file that I have gave me, which has the ability to set purities for both NaOH and KOH in a dual alkali recipe.

The logic with the water amount is to take the amount of NaOH and find the water based on your lye concentration, then do the same with KOH to find its amount of water needed based again on your lye concentration, and finally add those two water amounts.

So in my above recipe: 
NaOH 64,8gr x 1,632 = *105,75gr
*KOH 5,5gr x 1.632 = *8,97gr
Total water: ~144,72gr
*(1:1,632 is the ratio of water based in the 38% lye concentration)

As far as it concerns your case you will need 
221.8 grams of 50% NaOH Lye solution and add to that 55,45gr of water in order to have a total of 110,9gr NaOH and 166.35gr of water (1:1.5 ratio)
and then add KOH 9,1gr with 13.65gr water.

Hope I helped you a little, and I also hope to find some time this week.


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## DeeAnna

Hi, Earlene -- I'll contribute my answer to your questions. 

You say MMS and SBM call for 8.1 g KOH and Soapee calls for 9.1 g KOH. This is most likely due to different assumptions for KOH purity and differences in the saponification values in each calculator. 

SBM is set to about 95% purity and Soapee is at 90% purity. I'll have to check MMS again and confirm what purity their calc is set to nowadays.

I think most people most of the time are getting more reliable results when using 90% purity, so I'd recommend the KOH weight based on 90% purity (Soapee's answer).

***

Total water for the batch is based on the total weight of both lyes. Your math is correct in your first post for the amount of extra water you need to use in addition to the water in your 50% NaOH masterbatch to end up with a 40% lye concentration.

***

If you want to calculate the total water required based on the lye weights, just to double check, here is how to do it --

Total lye weight = NaOH weight + KOH weight
Total water weight = (Total lye weight) * 100 / (Lye concentration percent) - (Total lye weight)

Using your numbers from Soapee --

Lye concentration percent = 40
Total lye weight = 110.9 + 9.1 = 120 g
Total water weight = 120 * 100 / 40 - 120 = 180 g 

You said "...Soapee says to use 179.9 grams of water total...." So my answer is a fraction of a gram off of Soapee's number, but it's close enough.


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## earlene

Thank you all for taking the time to answer.  That helps a lot.  I see everyone comes up with the same answer, so that is reassuring!

I like having the equations to work with as back-up.  Thank you for providing the equation, DeeAnna.  I have saved your response for future reference because I can see that the equation will come in handy.  I have also saved the recipe & will be making it today. 

Thank you again, everyone!


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## earlene

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I would also look at making two  50% solutions, based on the amount of each lye needed, then just use  extra water to get it to a 40% solution water amount based purely on the  NaOH. With just 5% KOH, the difference in actual grams of water won't  be massive



*Gentleman*, I had thought of that.  I am not sure I am  ready to start keeping a KOH masterbatch solution, though. Just having  both dry lye solutions in the same bucket for storage has me feeling  more cautious (a good thing, of course).  If I put a KOH pre-mix  solution into the mix I fear I may one day use the wrong solution to  make soap.  

Well, I could do the same as I did for the dry  solution.  I bought some kiddy bandaids & put them on the tops of  the KOH to differentiate them from the NaOH.  I know, kiddy bandaids!?!   Well, a small package cost a lot less than Brightly colored Duck Tape,  which was what I was going to do. I don't have any small children  around, so it seemed to be just as efficient a method for  differentiating the two different lyes from each other.  Anyway, if I  decide to make a KOH masterbatch, I could use the same kiddy bandaid ID  method on the top of the bottles.  I'm pretty sure that would work for  me.

Still,  I am not sure how often I would be using the KOH.   Has anyone used the dual lye method with soaps other than castile?  I see *ngian* is looking to do a bastile with dual lye.



ngian said:


> Well DeeAnna has motivated me too these days with the Dual Lye Castile, and I'm planning to make one with some old olive oil (that I want to get rid of) and actually add a little of coconut.
> 
> Here is my recipe:
> 
> Olive: 95% - *475gr*
> Coconut: 5% - *25gr*
> Water (38% Lye Concentration): *114,8gr*
> NaOH 95%: *64.8gr* (purity 98%)
> KOH 5%: *5,5gr* - (purity 85%)
> Lye Discount: 2%



This sounds very interesting.  I do hope you post your results.  I wonder if how noticeable a difference there is from the traditional single lye soap vs the dual lye soap with this recipe.  Are you going to do a control batch, too for comparison?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I meant just simply taking your required weight of KOH and mixing it with enough water to dissolve it, same with the NaOH, then add more water - not making a massive amount of 50% to keep for other times


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## ngian

earlene said:


> This sounds very interesting.  I do hope you post your results.  I wonder if how noticeable a difference there is from the traditional single lye soap vs the dual lye soap with this recipe.  Are you going to do a control batch, too for comparison?



You are right, I must do a control recipe with NaOH only so as to estimate the benefits of dual alkali soap...


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## Arimara

ngian said:


> Well DeeAnna has motivated me too these days with the Dual Lye Castile, and I'm planning to make one with some old olive oil (that I want to get rid of) and actually add a little of coconut.
> 
> Here is my recipe:
> 
> Olive: 95% - *475gr*
> Coconut: 5% - *25gr*
> Water (38% Lye Concentration): *114,8gr*
> NaOH 95%: *64.8gr* (purity 98%)
> KOH 5%: *5,5gr* - (purity 85%)
> Lye Discount: 2%
> 
> This is what an excel file that I have gave me, which has the ability to set purities for both NaOH and KOH in a dual alkali recipe.
> 
> The logic with the water amount is to take the amount of NaOH and find the water based on your lye concentration, then do the same with KOH to find its amount of water needed based again on your lye concentration, and finally add those two water amounts.
> 
> So in my above recipe:
> NaOH 64,8gr x 1,632 = *105,75gr
> *KOH 5,5gr x 1.632 = *8,97gr
> Total water: ~144,72gr
> *(1:1,632 is the ratio of water based in the 38% lye concentration)
> 
> As far as it concerns your case you will need
> 221.8 grams of 50% NaOH Lye solution and add to that 55,45gr of water in order to have a total of 110,9gr NaOH and 166.35gr of water (1:1.5 ratio)
> and then add KOH 9,1gr with 13.65gr water.
> 
> Hope I helped you a little, and I also hope to find some time this week.



I'm going to warn you to be careful and be prepared for a possible soap-on-a-stick. I made a batch of 100% avocado oil soap using this method and it REALLY (can't stress that enough) did not need to be stickblended. It went to thick trace in a few seconds and that was for both -SF and 0 SF. I haven't tried with a 5% superfat and I did note that it took only slightly longer with to trace with the 0% (really a few seconds longer).

So, be careful and be prepared.


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## ngian

I am aware of this Arimara, and the whisk is my friend.

Thank you for your advice.


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## DeeAnna

The KOH adds solubility to a soap. This will be helpful for high oleic soaps (in other words, 100% olive castile and high OO bastile soaps) to quickly break down the goopy (snotty) oleic gel that forms with these soaps. It might also be helpful with a high stearic-palmitic (lard, tallow, palm) soap to help this type of soap dissolve and lather more easily. So I could see a bit of added KOH being useful as an alternative for some or all of the coconut oil or PKO in a recipe. I'm not sure how useful KOH will be in a highly soluble recipe, however, such as a soap high in PKO or coconut oil.

I have continued to test the mock castile soap I made with HO safflower and 5% KOH. I regularly compare this soap (8 weeks old by now) to a 2 year old castile made with 100% NaOH. The 5% KOH mock castile lathers much easier and more abundantly than the 100% NaOH castile. It has remained hard and long lasting with the usual precaution of keeping it in a well drained soap dish -- same as I do for all my soaps. The mock castile still has some of the nature of a 100% NaOH castile -- the lather is fairly dense and creamy and the wetted soap bar has the unusual slickness I associate with a high-oleic soap, but there is little or no tendency to make "snot" or slime. 

I need to make a video....


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## MySoapyHeart

DeeAnna said:


> I need to make a video....



Yes. This.

YEEEEES!!!


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## Arimara

ngian said:


> I am aware of this Arimara, and the whisk is my friend.
> 
> Thank you for your advice.



Sorry for bugging ya.


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## earlene

*Castile Dual Lye - 95%NaOh 5%KOH [40%Lye] - Results*

I made two batches of this yesterday. Dual Lye Castile - 95%NaOh 5%KOH [40%Lye Concentration]  

One batch was 50% Pomace OO and 50% Kirkland's Pure OO.  Within a few hours it was rock hard!  I was amazed even though I read that it would be, I still found it remarkable.  I did NOT use my SB because of the pomace, only a spoon.  Trace at about 7 minutes, but I should have stopped stirring at emulsion to separate & mix colors, because by the time I was ready to pour into the mold it was already at thick trace and my ribbon pour did not turn out ribbony. 

I used 3 micas from Steph's Micas & More: Sunflower Yellow, Clementine & Orange Coral, plus the plain soap batter as one of the colors; scented with Mad Oils Grow a Pear Tree FO and Candlepro's Pearberry (50/50).

 Even though the 'ribbon pour' was a failure as such, I still think they are quite nice looking, and they smell very nice, too.

Mixing temps about 110F.  CPOP'd with oven wall temp at 137F when I put them in (oven was pre-heated to lowest setting & turned off.)








The other batch was 100% Kirkland Olive Oil and although I thought I did everything else the same, except bringing only to emulsion before mixing colors and waiting for light trace before pouring batter into long-spouted container, it did not turn out at all hard as I was expecting.

Maybe the mixing temps were different, as I did not write them down & don't remember.  I doubled the recipe for this one, but double checked all my measurements at every turn.  I did run into a problem with pouring the batter, in that being a double recipe, it was too much for my container.  So the first mold (a one-pound mold) did not get an even shake at the ribbon pour.  The bottom portion was more like dump it in fast before it spills all over the place.  Ribbon pour on top was a bit more like intended, but not what I expected.  I am not sure how many times I am going to have to try it before I am happy, but that's another story.

The other mold is a long wooden mold and I have not yet unmolded it because the soap in the one-pound mold is still so soft.  

I CPOP'd these overnight, going into the oven at approximately the same temp as the other one had, covered both molds with cardboard & a light towel.

For color I used 5 micas + TD for a 6 color ribbon pour, and scented with BeScented's Strawberry Patch FO.  Micas from Steph's Micas & More: Cosmic Purple, Silver Graphite, Vivid Violet Neon, Marvelous Magenta Neon, Radical Red Neon; plus one portion was colored with TD, for a total of 6 colors.

So far I only have pictures of the one-pound mold cut.  You can see how soft they are as evidenced by the edges:


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## earlene

I just realized this probably should be in the Recipes Feedback section  instead of Recipes and Tutorials section. If an admin feels that is the  more appropriate location, please move this thread.  Thank you.


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## ngian

If everything was the same between the two batches except from the pomace OO that was used, then this might be to blame as pomace has the ability to hasten saponification because of the bigger amount of free FAs it has, and thus the soap peaks to a higher temperature, saponifying more quickly the oils and maybe forcing more water to evaporate because of the heat at the same time. I think also light or thick trace affects a little the unmolding time.

Those issues must be the reasons for the harder version of soap.

Yesterday I made the two lye solutions too (dual lye and NaOH only at 38% lye concentration) and by tomorrow I will make the soaps (will post in a new thread).


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## earlene

ngian said:


> If everything was the same between the two batches except from the pomace OO that was used, then this might be to blame as pomace has the ability to hasten saponification because of the bigger amount of free FAs it has, and thus the soap peaks to a higher temperature, saponifying more quickly the oils and maybe forcing more water to evaporate because of the heat at the same time. I think also light or thick trace affects a little the unmolding time.
> 
> Those issues must be the reasons for the harder version of soap.
> 
> Yesterday I made the two lye solutions too (dual lye and NaOH only at 38% lye concentration) and by tomorrow I will make the soaps (will post in a new thread).



I suspected as much, but not at such a large degree of difference between the two batches.  I do believe I will use at least one-quarter to one-half pomace in castile from now on because it made such a great difference.  Although I still would want just as long a cure time, I really like being able to free up my mold, and to put soap out to cure without fear of defacing the bars with fingerprints, etc.  I really like not having squishy bars of soap to handle!

I am looking forward to seeing your dual lye soap, *ngian*.


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## penelopejane

earlene said:


> Thank you.




I like the way the second soap turned out with the multi colours confined to the top of the soap. It might have been too much if the entire soap was like that rather than a highlight. Well done with your experiment.


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## earlene

penelopejane said:


> I like the way the second soap turned out with the multi colours confined to the top of the soap. It might have been too much if the entire soap was like that rather than a highlight. Well done with your experiment.




Thank you, *penelopejane*. 

That happened because I
1. poured the batter into the spouted container too thin, and 
2. overfilled the spouted container and before it could start spilling over, I had to dump a lot of the batter into this mold immediately.  

It's sort of funny because there was a split second of time from when my brain recognized it was going to spill over before my motor control kicked in.  So I knew it was going to happen, but couldn't stop myself fast enough.  My  brain to motor control reaction time seems to be slowing down, so I'll need to remember to be more cautious. 

Anyway the colors in the bottom of the mold got a bit muddled, then I as I began to pour slowly and carefully into the bigger container, the batter started to thicken.  I actually filled most of the other mold before I finished the rest of this one, so the top layer had a better chance of staying where it was put without mixing in with the rest.

I'd like to get that wood grain look that newbie got in her green soaps, but I think neon colorants are not the best option for that.  I'll try again with more subdued colors as I do have a few more micas to test.


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## Dahila

Ladies and gents so you separate the water mix lye and koh then put them together in one bowl to add to oils or separately?  Very interesting tread
Can any soap be done this way or just high oleic soaps?


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## Susie

I don't mix my KOH and NaOH separately.  I have used KOH 60%, NaOH 40% for liquid soap mix, so this may be different for solid soap, but I mix my NaOH with the water first, then add the KOH to the hot NaOH/water mixture.  Saves a step and a dish.


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## earlene

*Dahlia*, I do my NaOH as a master-batch of 50/50 lye to water & took my NaOH from there as per procedure of measuring masterbatched lye.  Then I mixed a 50/50 KOH to water with some of the additional water called for in the recipe.  Then I mixed the two lyes together.  They heated up.  Then I added the remaining water (as per calculations based on the recipe and master-batching protocol.)

I have used the 95%/5% Dual Lye method for several soaps since this first one, and I do like the process. But I am considering making a master-batch of KOH, but have not done so as yet because I don't want to accidentally end up using the wrong solution when I make soap at some time in the future.  So then I though maybe I should figure out how to make a master-batch of the Dual Lye solution itself and just make enough for a few batches at a time.  So far it is only a thought and I haven't put a lot of time into figuring out how to do the math on the latter.  

As to your other question about doing this with soaps other than high oleic ones, I am too new at this method to answer that.  In another thread I believe I read that DeeAnna is experimenting with doing the dual lye method with her high-lard soaps.


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## Arimara

I used it only for 100% avocado oil soap. That oil traced so much faster than olive oil I was shocked. It also lead to slimy soaps with nice lather.


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## Susie

I made batches of the 95% NaOH, 5% KOH soap yesterday and today with the following oils:

Lard 65%
Olive Oil 15%
Coconut Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

The one I made yesterday, I used no sugar.  The batch I made today had my standard 0.5 oz/32 oz oil sugar addition.  I have plenty of non-dual lye soaps to compare it to, so I will have a good comparison.  The batch yesterday took a long time to trace with Cinnamon Candies from WSP, and the batch today with Pear Glace from WSP traced within seconds.  It smells great, but is currently sitting in an ice water bath so it does not volcano.


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## earlene

Reporting on my impressions of using this soap at 6 months cure with a comparison to 15-month cured Castile.  For the younger Castile, I used the pink one, which is 100% OO of the Kirkland brand, which comes from Costco.  The older Castile was made with Sam's Club OO because that's what I had on hand (I don't actually live very close to a Costco, but I do live close to Sam's Club.)

I don't have a 6 month young bar of single lye Castile to compare it to, but I do believe my results belie the statement that a 4-6 week cure for dual lye Castile is sufficient to eliminate slime or that has cured enough to be mild.

Other than the lye composition, the amount of water and the addition of micas to the newer soap, the recipes are exactly the same.  Olive Oil and water, same 5% SF, both done CP (although at this point I don't think that would matter.)  

*Single Lye Castile* (15 months of age): 
Copious large to medium bubbles; absolutely no slime; fairly creamy lather than starts a little slower  and takes a bit longer to become creamy, but feels very good on my skin.  After washing and rinsing, there seems to be a residual conditioning or nourishing feel to my skin that lasts nicely.
_Notes about the bar & recipe_: I made this with full water per SoapCalc's default.  It is softer, not yet 'rock hard' like the pink bar below.  

*Dual Lye Castile* (95% NaOH + 5% KOH) (6 months of age):
Slightly smaller, but abundant bubbles; copious thick and creamy lather; slime forms when I hold my palm flat on the bar and lift it away, breaking at about 1 to 1.5 inches from the surface as I lift my hand; HOWEVER, this slime goes away when I used the same bar twice and I had a hard time re-creating the slime after the initial one minute of soaping up my hands. After using this 6-month young Dual Lye Castile, my skin feel dryer than I like.  Not as mild and not as 'conditioned' or 'nourished' or whatever that feeling is when a soap doesn't leave my hands feeling like they would benefit from some lotion.
_Notes about the bar & recipe_: I made this with a [40% Lye Concentration] so less water.  It is very hard, although it did bow a bit while drying, which the other one did not, but I suspect that has to do with not turning the bar as frequently to prevent bowing.


 The *temperature of the water* seems to make no difference whatsoever on these findings.  At first I used warm water.  Later I re-tested with cold water accidentally, but it was actually interesting to see that it made no difference.  Then I repeated it with warm water again almost immediately.  That's when I discovered the slime is harder to 'find' in the dual lye Castile when washing the soap, rinsing the soap and re-washing again right away.

Also of interest, is that when my hands felt dryer than I like after using the dual lye Castile, about 10 minutes later I simply washed again with the 15-month old Castile and my hands feel better again.  Odd that.  

In any case, I do believe that even if some say you can use a Dual Lye Castile earlier (at 4-6 weeks), I would NOT recommend it.  Even at 6 months, it's not anywhere near as mild as it should be in my opinion.


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## topofmurrayhill

Thanks!


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## earlene

On another note, I've just started reading the thread, 'Deanna, I have a question....' wherein several members here made a lye heavy Castile recipe shared by AnnaMarie, which produced a very mild and slime-free Castile.  Besides the excess lye, the excess water seemed to be extremely important as well.   I am only on page 24 of the thread so far, so have not yet reached the long-term reports of the experiment, other than AnnaMarie's which were long-term from the start of the thread.  But it leads me to wonder if my dual lye Castile would have benefited more from a higher water content.  I used a [40% Lye Concentration] so obviously not a lot of water.

I may try this recipe again with a lot more water and see how it turns out at similar intervals to this one for comparison.


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## bumbleklutz

Intentional or not Earlene, those are some beautiful soaps.


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## topofmurrayhill

earlene said:


> On another note, I've just started reading the thread, 'Deanna, I have a question....' wherein several members here made a lye heavy Castile recipe shared by AnnaMarie, which produced a very mild and slime-free Castile.  Besides the excess lye, the excess water seemed to be extremely important as well.   I am only on page 24 of the thread so far, so have not yet reached the long-term reports of the experiment, other than AnnaMarie's which were long-term from the start of the thread.  But it leads me to wonder if my dual lye Castile would have benefited more from a higher water content.  I used a [40% Lye Concentration] so obviously not a lot of water.
> 
> I may try this recipe again with a lot more water and see how it turns out at similar intervals to this one for comparison.



That recipe is pretty tricky. The lye grains out the soap just like salt would. The result is that it won't trace, or you force it by blending and it's still too weepy in the mold. The purpose of the lye excess, even though it will cure out, is unclear. I don't think we have heard of any CP soap being made like that anywhere, at least intentionally.

I don't know if I'll ever have time to try, partly because I don't totally trust that the instructions we have are correct or worthwhile, but I think I know how it could work, in principle. Basically, you don't want the concentration of the caustic in the liquid to be high enough to salt out the soap. You would probably have to add all or most of the water up front, except for the part you use to create a concentrated lye. Then you would add that slowly, allowing time for alkali to be used up before adding more. 

What makes me think the instructions are wrong or misleading is that the process would take forever at room temp. That would be better for HP. The amount of excess lye in the recipe could maybe even inevitably cause the soap to separate by the time you get it all in.

The fact to understand in all this is that sodium hydroxide is even more effective at throwing soap out of solution than sodium chloride. From knowing what the fully-boiled soap makers do (or did), I finally realized why that recipe likes to fail. The lye is just too damned strong. Unless you adjust the procedure somehow, it can't work properly.


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## DeeAnna

No, it doesn't grain out. Graining is driven by concentration of salt or alkali in the water phase. The alkali concentration in the lye heavy Castile recipe is only about 15% at its highest. That lye concentration is not nearly enough to make soap insoluble in the water layer, especially since the lye concentration is dropping in the water phase in response to the ongoing saponification reaction.

The real issue is that the emulsion created by stick blending that much water with a relatively small amount of fat is highly unstable.


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## topofmurrayhill

DeeAnna said:


> No, it doesn't grain out. Graining is driven by concentration of salt or alkali in the water phase. The alkali concentration in the lye heavy Castile recipe is only about 15% at its highest. That lye concentration is not nearly enough to make soap insoluble in the water layer, especially since the lye concentration is dropping in the water phase in response to the ongoing saponification reaction.
> 
> The real issue is that the emulsion created by stick blending that much water with a relatively small amount of fat is highly unstable.



Either hypothesis could be right, or they could both be somehow, in the absence of experiments to prove them.

One of the effects I watched with my own eyes was the soap graining out as it formed, much as in the early stage of HP but not as dramatic because no heat. I stirred for a real long time without blending to see what would happen. Hours. I saw flakes of soap forming gradually and floating around at the top, but the solution underneath stayed crystal clear -- so I'm pretty convinced of what I was looking at. And the process just locked up.

The boiled soap makers always started with a weak lye -- 15% at most, because more would inhibit saponication. I guess it's more liable to be a problem at the beginning. If the soap in this recipe dissolved in the water as the process proceeded, I think it would work with time, as suggested by the pictures and description.

What kind of emulsion is that anyway? Very weird. It must be water in oil, because you can put a glob of the stick blended stuff in water and it just keeps its shape and sits at the bottom of the bowl.


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## penelopejane

earlene said:


> Reporting on my impressions of using this soap at 6 months cure with a comparison to 15-month cured Castile.
> 
> In any case, I do believe that even if some say you can use a Dual Lye Castile earlier (at 4-6 weeks), I would NOT recommend it.  Even at 6 months, it's not anywhere near as mild as it should be in my opinion.



Hi Earlene thank you for posting your results.
Have you compared this KOH additive to salt or vinegar?


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## earlene

penelopejane said:


> Hi Earlene thank you for posting your results.
> Have you compared this KOH additive to salt or vinegar?




So far, no, not in Castile soap.  That is a  plan, however.

I am joining the 'annual New Year Castile Soap Project' and will make them then.  Probably tomorrow or the next day.  

I have been using vinegar in soap for a couple of months, though not in a pure olive oil soap.  I've only made 3 batches total of Castile soap so far.  None had added salt.  I have to develop my plan of how many & what size batches for this project, as well as what additives to include in each batch, so the exact recipes.

Thanks for asking.


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## penelopejane

earlene said:


> So far, no, not in Castile soap.  That is a  plan, however.
> 
> I am joining the 'annual New Year Castile Soap Project' and will make them then.  Probably tomorrow or the next day.
> 
> I have been using vinegar in soap for a couple of months, though not in a pure olive oil soap.  I've only made 3 batches total of Castile soap so far.  None had added salt.  I have to develop my plan of how many & what size batches for this project, as well as what additives to include in each batch, so the exact recipes.
> 
> Thanks for asking.



The other important thing when testing Castile is how long the bar lasts with use. If it goes mushy half way through then I consider it a fail. 

After all this then there is the other variable - the water you use in the shower. I don't know if it makes a huge difference or not. I don't get a lot of "snott" on my long cure single lye Castile. I don't know if it's my perception, my OO, my cure time or my water. I have to get others to test my soaps to cut out some of these variables - perception and water. 

I have just started doing the same tests as you with all my recipes. It is very interesting reading your reviews. Thank you.


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## earlene

penelopejane said:


> The other important thing when testing Castile is how long the bar lasts with use. If it goes mushy half way through then I consider it a fail.
> 
> After all this then there is the other variable - the water you use in the shower. I don't know if it makes a huge difference or not. I don't get a lot of "snott" on my long cure single lye Castile. I don't know if it's my perception, my OO, my cure time or my water. I have to get others to test my soaps to cut out some of these variables - perception and water.
> 
> I have just started doing the same tests as you with all my recipes. It is very interesting reading your reviews. Thank you.



Good points.  I guess I have so many soaps that I simply cannot judge how long any one of them lasts in the shower!  I alternate between this bar, then that bar, then another one because I want to try so many of them out, that none of them gets used exclusively from start to finish.  My husband, however, uses one bar of soap and finishes it before he moves on to another.  Maybe I should enlist him in that task - determining how long a Castile will last in the shower vs his usual coffee soap that he loves so much.  And does it get mushy with use.  But then, mine are probably too young for that as yet.  Maybe in the future...

And water certainly does make a difference. We have a water softener and when it runs its weekly cycle the water is noticeably very soft that day in particular, softer than any other day of the week.  It took me a long time to get used to softened water; at first I didn't think the soap was rinsing off my body at all and that was commercial soap, not hand-crafted soap.


It's funny how we think about how long a bar of soap lasts in the shower.  I don't think I ever considered that in my life before.  We just used the same bar of soap, and replaced it when it got too small.  We always used the same bar of soap and never anything different unless the store didn't have our 'usual' in stock.  My goodness things have changed since I started making soap.


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## DeeAnna

To add an interesting twist to the ongoing debate about high oleic soaps, please see Auntie Clara's blog post  http://auntieclaras.com/2016/08/soap-holiday-2016-edition/ about the various soaps she and her family used while on vacation in Italy this past season. The second soap she discusses in the blog is a bar of her 2 1/2 year old castile.

Here's a quote from this article that I found especially interesting: 

"...I’m now beginning to see that the rather prohibitive size and shape of traditional olive oil soaps like Marseille and Aleppo blocks, is not just an inconvenient coincidence. Those soaps come in blocks specifically because you aren’t meant to twirl them in your hands, dip them in bath water or a shower stream and rub them over your body. You’re meant to stand the soap away from water, rub the block with a damp cloth or sponge and then use the cloth or sponge to work up a lather and rub your skin. 

"Used that way a bar of olive oil soap will last a very long time – and you’ll probably get just as clean. Easily arranged at home perhaps, but not so convenient when travelling...."


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## CTAnton

Such an interesting point you bring up DeeAnna...which to me makes a lot of sense. Some of my soap fans say they can't believe how long my current soaps last; one friend had a bar at a sink for over a year. Another friend has a CP shamrock from March still going strong at his work sink.I'm imagining a block of soap in an arid environment like Aleppo kept from running water or allowed to dry out between usages anywhere with simply a damp cloth over it lasting one helluva long time...


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## earlene

Thank you, *DeeAnna*.  I will check out her blogpost.

Coincidentally, some of my Castile soap I made this past week is in blocks like that.  I thought I'd try it to see if I like the shape.  The jury is still out, of course because I won't be using them for a year.


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## earlene

I used one of the pink ones in the tub yesterday.  No sliminess noticed.  It was hard as a rock going in, sank to the bottom when I dropped it in the tub of course, but I retrieved it and placed in back in the soap dish.  At one year, this dual lye Castile is quite nice.  Lathers beautifully.







A surprise came when I turned on the whirlpool jets toward the end of the bath and got a thick layer of soapy bubbles forming on the top of the water.  Granted, I had put in a tiny bath bomb at the end as well, but it had completely disipated before I turned on the jets, but I can't rule out the effect of that in the water.  And I had also washed my hair at the very start and rinsed the shampoo out in the bath water.  So the combo of all three probably played a part in the thick lathery bubbles that formed.  But it was still a surprise.  I've never got that many thick lathery bubbles in a whirl pool bath at the end of the bath using only a bath bomb; not even using only bubble bath.  And I don't tend to sit around in a bath for a really long time either, so I haven't done this kind of thing very often.

In any case, I am happy with my dual lye Castile at one year.  I do have to be careful when using this soap to set it to dry more than with some other soaps, however. I noticed this morning the underside is still wet and somewhat gooey where it didn't get enough air circulation to dry out.  When I had it at the kitchen sink, I always stood it upright to dry out and didn't run into a problem with a gooey wet underside like after the tub bath, when I did not stand it fully upright.

So the take-away at this point is proper drying out between uses.  But that's necessary with all soaps, anyway.


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## penelopejane

earlene said:


> I used one of the pink ones in the tub yesterday.  No sliminess noticed.  It was hard as a rock going in, sank to the bottom when I dropped it in the tub of course, but I retrieved it and placed in back in the soap dish.  At one year, this dual lye Castile is quite nice.  Lathers beautifully.
> 
> In any case, I am happy with my dual lye Castile at one year.  I do have to be careful when using this soap to set it to dry more than with some other soaps, however. I noticed this morning the underside is still wet and somewhat gooey where it didn't get enough air circulation to dry out.  W
> 
> So the take-away at this point is proper drying out between uses.  But that's necessary with all soaps, anyway.



Hi earlene, 

Thanks for the update. 
Have you made a Castile vinegar soap to compare with the dual lye one yet?


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## earlene

*Penelopejane*, yes, I made a vinegar Castile with NaOH as my only lye.  My calculations were for a 1.7% sodium acetate (vinegar conversion) and I used full liquid for this particular soap.  It was 50% regular OO and 50% pomace OO with a little added sugar to help with bubbles.  I made it on Jan. 2, 2017.

I haven't tested it yet; just letting it cure.  In fact I haven't even looked at it much other than in passing when looking at my curing soaps to move them as needed.


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## penelopejane

earlene said:


> *Penelopejane*, yes, I made a vinegar Castile with NaOH as my only lye.  My calculations were for a 1.7% sodium acetate (vinegar conversion) and I used full liquid for this particular soap.  It was 50% regular OO and 50% pomace OO with a little added sugar to help with bubbles.  I made it on Jan. 2, 2017.
> 
> I haven't tested it yet; just letting it cure.  In fact I haven't even looked at it much other than in passing when looking at my curing soaps to move them as needed.



Hi Earlene, 
Thank you so much and sorry I keep asking you the same question but I am not confident in my own evaluation of my soap. 

I've just tested (by watching like a hawk when anyone washes their hands at the sink and making them try each soap and giving a review)

a) Pure Castile 14 months old b) Castile dual lye 6 months old and c) Castile vinegar 2 months old and I like the vinegar one best. (All EVOO) I won't be making dual lye again until I've waited for the current lot to cure for longer but I don't like the gel that is formed.  I don't get the slime even on pure castile so maybe some find the gel preferable to the slime but I don't and neither do my poor soap-testing family.


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