# 2nd Batch of Liquid Soap



## Kcryss (Mar 16, 2021)

I'm making my 2nd ever batch of liquid soap. It's been several months since the first batch and I followed the process outlined by @Zany_in_CO with no trouble.

This batch has been a bit strange, it volcano'd right before getting to the "too thick to sb" stage. The volcano actually climb up the side of the crockpot and would not stir or sb down ... I was a little nervous when it wouldn't calm down. Then it stopped and formed a crust on top ... was very strange.

Any idea what would cause a volcano that will not stir down and then form a crust? I know I soap at high temps, but I've never had this particular reaction. If it's the ingredients then going forward I will soap this recipe a bit cooler if needed. If I make it again that is ...

Thoughts?


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## lsg (Mar 16, 2021)

How high was your heat setting?  Is it a real crust on tops of the paste or is it just bubbles?


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## Kcryss (Mar 16, 2021)

lsg said:


> How high was your heat setting?  Is it a real crust on tops of the paste or is it just bubbles?



I mixed the lye into the oil when both were 180. The crackpot was on low. It actually formed a crust, it was the strangest thing I've seen since making soap. When I pushed through the crust, the batter below was like marshmallow fluff. The crust was almost translucent.


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## Susie (Mar 16, 2021)

The crust was dried soap paste. It will dry incredibly quickly with lard. I had the same issue (this is before I started cold process liquid soap). I love lard in my liquid soap. It just isn't very pretty. I keep threatening to get opaque soap bottles for it, but I can't find any that I like that is a foamer.


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## Kcryss (Mar 16, 2021)

Susie said:


> The crust was dried soap paste. It will dry incredibly quickly with lard. I had the same issue (this is before I started cold process liquid soap). I love lard in my liquid soap. It just isn't very pretty. I keep threatening to get opaque soap bottles for it, but I can't find any that I like that is a foamer.



Good to know! Thanks! I cooked it for about 45 minutes or so on low and then turned off the crockpot. I just checked it and it's done already. 
I actually like creamy looking liquid soap so that's ok with me. I bought some Glycol Distearate for some shampoo I made. I plan on adding some to see if it comes out pearly.


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## Susie (Mar 17, 2021)

The problem with using lard and such in liquid soap is that the particles that make it opaque fall when you dilute it and let it sit for any period of time. If you want it to stay looking creamy, only dilute enough for one bottle at the time.


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## Kcryss (Mar 17, 2021)

Susie said:


> The problem with using lard and such in liquid soap is that the particles that make it opaque fall when you dilute it and let it sit for any period of time. If you want it to stay looking creamy, only dilute enough for one bottle at the time.



Oh, ok. Thanks for the tip!


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## DeeAnna (Mar 17, 2021)

Huh. I thought I was the only one who liked lard in my liquid soap, since few people mention it here. Good to know I'm not alone.

A few particles settle out in my lard-based liquid soap, but what I notice more is the diluted soap always has a thin, floating white layer. Not fatty acids -- I made sure of that.

I put liquid soap (no matter what it looks like) in translucent bottles (like milk carton material). Just what I happen to have on hand. But this does have the benefit of hiding the homely cloudiness of this type of soap.


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## Kcryss (Mar 17, 2021)

@DeeAnna Since the film seems to float, is there any way to emulsify/solubilize (or whatever term applies here ) to prevent the separation? I plan on dropping the ph to 9 if it's too high with a bit of citric acid, then using HEC to thicken if needed.

Finished paste


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## DeeAnna (Mar 17, 2021)

There are not enough of the "floaties" to justify adding other stuff IMO. It's a thin film -- in many cases the film doesn't even cover the entire surface of the soap. You need to see for yourself, however, and decide, because it's honestly not that important to me to eliminate it. If having a perfectly uniform looking liquid soap was a goal, I'd not use lard, to be honest.

If I wanted to eliminate the floaties I get on my lard-based LS, I'd lay a paper towel (or thin cloth) on the surface of the soap and then carefully lift it off. Most of the floaties should come off the soap with the paper towel. You'll probably have to do this several times over the lifetime of a diluted LS because, as Susie explained, the particles that cloud the body of the soap will continue to rise to the surface or fall to the bottom as time passes.

In my experience, lard based liquid soap seems to be quite thick on its own. I have never felt the need to thicken it with a separate thickener, although I realize that's my personal preference and might not suit your taste.

More importantly, I caution you about getting too attached to the idea of dropping the pH to some artificial target. IMO it's best to make a liquid soap that's slightly superfatted and accept whatever the natural pH happens to be at that point. Lard is high in palmitic and stearic acids, and I estimate the natural pH of soap with a lot of palmitic and stearic acids in it is going to have a pH somewhere around the high side of 10.

If you try to drop the pH almost 2 pH units to 9, the soap is going to largely decompose into fatty acids -- in other words, you won't have a functional soap anymore. But it won't harm anything to try this and see what happens.

I don't find a liquid soap high in lard to be nearly as drying to the skin as the usual olive oil, castor, and coconut blends often used to make LS. Unless a person has extremely sensitive or damaged skin, the irritancy of a soap is less about the pH of the soap and more about the cleansing power of the fatty acids in the soap.


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## Kcryss (Mar 17, 2021)

Thanks @DeeAnna! Sounds like maybe I should just leave it be and see how it turns out over the next several weeks.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 17, 2021)

Kcryss said:


> Any idea what would cause a volcano that will not stir down and then form a crust? I know I soap at high temps, but I've never had this particular reaction.






Hmmm "Liquid and *NaOH*" ???
Also, for liquid soap, 3 waters to 1 KOH works best. 2:1 can be used for this recipe but you need to watch it -- it sometimes causes the batch to bloat up and over the pot.






Kcryss said:


> I mixed the lye into the oil when both were 180.


160°F is the recommended temp for processing liquid soap.
Not enough water in the lye solution plus high temp is likely what caused the reaction.
In my experience, using glycerin as all or part of your water to make the lye solution allows you to soap hotter. This works well for LS made with a high % of olive oil (or similar oils); not needed for formulas with lard, coconut & shea butter. Likely to trace in about 12 minutes vs 45 minutes using OO.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 17, 2021)

Susie said:


> The problem with using lard and such in liquid soap is that the particles that make it opaque fall when you dilute it and let it sit for any period of time. If you want it to stay looking creamy, only dilute enough for one bottle at the time.


FWIW, I make 50/50 Lard & PKO, a gallon at a time. It starts out pearly/opaque and clears in about 6 months.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 17, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> it's honestly not that important to me to eliminate it.
> 
> If I wanted to eliminate the floaties I get on my lard-based LS, I'd lay a paper towel (or thin cloth) on the surface of the soap and then carefully lift it off.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of the above -- however, I've never experience film or floaties in my lard & PKO recipe. Also, when the soap eventually clears in 6 months or so there are no particles that rise to the surface or settle on the bottom. Why not? Dunno.


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## Kcryss (Mar 18, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Hmmm "Liquid and *NaOH*" ???



Yeah, that's just the way the form displays on soapmakingfriend. I love this calculator for storing recipes/batches etc. so I just ignore little things like that. 



Zany_in_CO said:


> Also, for liquid soap, 3 waters to 1 KOH works best. 2:1 can be used for this recipe but you need to watch it -- it sometimes causes the batch to bloat up and over the pot.


I used 3 to 1, not sure I would want to decrease the water, was thinking maybe increase.



Zany_in_CO said:


> 160°F is the recommended temp for processing liquid soap.
> Not enough water in the lye solution plus high temp is likely what caused the reaction.


Yeah, that's pretty much what I decided too. If I had done more than 1lb of oils, it would not have been a fun cleanup. lol



Zany_in_CO said:


> FWIW, I make 50/50 Lard & PKO, a gallon at a time. It starts out pearly/opaque and clears in about 6 months.


I actually want a creamy white soap ...


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## DeeAnna (Mar 18, 2021)

I don't think I'd use more water than a 3:1 water:lye ratio (25% lye concentration). 

Someone else recently used (speaking from memory) something like a 20% lye concentration (4:1 water:lye ratio). They had problems getting the batter to stay emulsified (aka trace). I know from experience that a 15% lye conc (5.7:1 water:lye ratio) will make it very difficult to get soap batter to reach a stable emulsion. So I'm not of the opinion that starting with a lot of water is a useful method.

I experimented recently with bringing a KOH soap batter at a 3:1 water:lye ratio to a stable, thick emulsion and then slowly adding warm water as the soap paste cooked. I was exploring the idea of making a softer soap paste that was easier to dilute to the desired final water content. 

IMO, the extra water in the paste made it necessary to cook the paste while it was saponifying -- I'm not entirely sure a water-added paste can be made with a cold process method. Also I found if water is added too fast to the paste, the emulsion will break, especially in the early stages. It's possible the use of sodium carbonate or potassium carbonate (an additive some liquid soap makers use) might help to stabilize a water-added paste while it saponifies, but I didn't try that. It was my first experimental batch, so I'm sure there's more to learn about this.

For a creamy or pearly soap, then I'd look at superfatting the soap with melted stearic acid after the soap is fully saponified -- look at how Irish Lass makes her "creamy coco-shea" liquid soap. Some suppliers sell "pearling" additives that might give you the look you're after, but I don't know what's in them or how they're used or even if they're suitable for liquid soap.


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## Kcryss (Mar 18, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> I don't think I'd use more water than a 3:1 water:lye ratio (25% lye concentration).
> 
> Someone else recently used (speaking from memory) something like a 20% lye concentration (4:1 water:lye ratio). They had problems getting the batter to stay emulsified (aka trace). I know from experience that a 15% lye conc (5.7:1 water:lye ratio) will make it very difficult to get soap batter to reach a stable emulsion. So I'm not of the opinion that starting with a lot of water is a useful method.
> 
> I experimented recently with bringing a KOH soap batter at a 3:1 water:lye ratio to a stable, thick emulsion and then slowly adding warm water as the soap paste cooked. I was exploring the idea of making a softer soap paste that was easier to dilute to the desired final water content.


Hmm ... interesting experiment. I'll probably start with lowering the temp a bit to prevent a boil over and see how that goes.  

I know there are people out there making no paste liquid soap, but haven't paid much attention to any of the recipes or videos. I would be interested in hearing how your experiment goes if you continue.



DeeAnna said:


> For a creamy or pearly soap, then I'd look at superfatting the soap with melted stearic acid after the soap is fully saponified -- look at how Irish Lass makes her "creamy coco-shea" liquid soap. Some suppliers sell "pearling" additives that might give you the look you're after, but I don't know what's in them or how they're used or even if they're suitable for liquid soap.



Yes, I've been re-reading the IL recipe and will be adding more stearic along with some Glycol Distearate to attempt the creamy look.

I did dilute a small amount yesterday as is to see how it looked. It's been about 24 hrs now and it's a little yellowish and cloudy. However, I think maybe I over did it with the distilled water. I did a 1:2 ratio (50g paste, 100g distilled water). I'm going to try adding the stearic first and see how it looks before attempting the glycol distearate. That one might be a bit tricky as it is not water soluble.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 18, 2021)

Kcryss said:


> I followed the process outlined by @Zany_in_CO with no trouble.





@Kcryss   I giggled when I saw your formula and process. Honestly? I didn't recognize it as my own!

See PDF for my 50/50 Lard & PKO attached.


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## Kcryss (Mar 18, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I giggled when I saw your formula and process. Honestly? I didn't recognize it as my own!


Lol, sorry about that. You sent me to a website. I tried finding it again and don't recall which one it was, but there was a tutorial on making liquid soap. You told me to follow it and I did ... wish I could find it again. lol

Edit: found it - Alaiyna B. Bath and Body: Basic Beginner Liquid Soap and Information


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 18, 2021)

Kcryss said:


> Lol, sorry about that. You sent me to a website. I tried finding it again and don't recall which one it was, but there was a tutorial on making liquid soap. You told me to follow it and I did ... wish I could find it again. lol
> Edit: found it - Alaiyna B. Bath and Body: Basic Beginner Liquid Soap and Information


Oh. Sorry. I thought I sent you my Lard & PKO. Forgive me. I'm not well. 


Kcryss said:


> I used 3 to 1, not sure I would want to decrease the water, was thinking maybe increase.



2 X 116 grams KOH = *232* grams water
3 X 116 grams KOH = *348* grams water

I don't know how you ended up with *247* grams water? Did you superfat?
In any  case, you don't want to decrease the water -- especially when HPing.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 18, 2021)

Kcryss said:


> I did dilute a small amount yesterday as is to see how it looked. It's been about 24 hrs now and it's a little yellowish and cloudy. However, I think maybe I over did it with the distilled water. I did a 1:2 ratio (50g paste, 100g distilled water). I'm going to try adding the stearic first and see how it looks before attempting the glycol distearate. That one might be a bit tricky as it is not water soluble.


This is what my 50/50 Lard & PKO looks like. Dilution Rate: 40% soap to 60% water.





  Made a few months ago. This came from the bottom of a 1 gallon jug. The soap at the top is clear. If you really want a creamy white soap with great lather that rinses clean, and doesn't dry your hands, you may want to try 50/50 Lard & Coconut. When we last talked about it, that's what I remember you saying you were going to try.


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## Kcryss (Mar 18, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Oh. Sorry. I thought I sent you my Lard & PKO. Forgive me. I'm not well.



lol, you did. I don't use PKO so swapped it out for CO (mostly) and just couldn't "not" add a couple of other things. I do the same thing with food recipes ... I can't stick to the original no matter how hard I try. I always have to tweak ... I apologize for tweaking. 



Zany_in_CO said:


> 2 X 116 grams KOH = *232* grams water
> 3 X 116 grams KOH = *348* grams water
> 
> I don't know how you ended up with *247* grams water? Did you superfat?
> In any case, you don't want to decrease the water -- especially when HPing.



Yeah, the way that printed out is a little deceptive. I should have added in that I used 3:1 water/lye ratio. The reason it shows 247 is because it excludes the 100g of glycerin. I added the glycerin to the oils with a water discount in the calculator.
Superfat was only 2.5%. I couldn't decide between 2 and 3 so finally just split the difference.


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## Kcryss (Mar 18, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> This is what my 50/50 Lard & PKO looks like. Dilution Rate: 40% soap to 60% water.


I love the milky look of that soap!


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## Kcryss (Mar 18, 2021)

Added HEC and Stearic Acid.


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