# i made my soap with ricing property. any way to save it ?



## origo (Apr 29, 2015)

Hello,







After looking at the beginners thread I see that I made my soap with ricing.They are not solid, and they have a bad mixed pudding look.
I calculated wrong the oils  anyway, is there a way to SAVE them, or should I just throw them in the toilet ?  ....somehow of re-heating, adding lard... adding gelatine ... I have no idea.

 Thanks again and sorry for the noob question


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 29, 2015)

So what did you WANT to do and what did you ACTUALLY do? Including recipe and process (approximate temperatures and so on)

That will help people to be able to trouble shoot, if they know what the trouble is that they are shooting.


----------



## shunt2011 (Apr 29, 2015)

Also, if it's not too late I would throw it in a crockpot or in a pot on the stove on low and stick blend it and it may come together.  May not be pretty but might be okay.   I've had a few FO's do that.


----------



## Susie (Apr 29, 2015)

But if you don't know how much of which oils you have, as well as the precise amount of lye, I would toss it and call it a learning experience.  

If you do know EXACTLY what you have in there, please post it up, and what you want, and we may be able to help from there.


----------



## origo (Apr 29, 2015)

I have no idea. I added some lye, but it didn't heat with the water.... so I added some more , still didn't heat. so I said...**** it, and I made it without heated lye.

Recipe:

lye - unknown
peanut oil (one small plastic cans)
olive oil (3 small platic cans)
some essential oils (guess around 20 drops)

I bought some pork fat, that I read it makes the soap hard. You think if I mix it with the "failed experiment" it will work ?

sorry, I'm really beginner and I watched some youtube videos

made another batch, and I putted some gelatin for food to make it more strong. but still it's not strong enough. 
maybe I'm doing something wrong...


----------



## santimar (Apr 29, 2015)

Did you use a soap calculator????


----------



## lpstephy85 (Apr 29, 2015)

The best advise that can be given is to take a step back and read through the this forum and absorb all of the information before making another batch. You cannot just throw ingredients together without using a soap calculator and expect it to come out perfect (heck, even when you do use a soap calc it still won't come out perfect...nature of the soap beast!). If you come to the forum and ask for help but then cannot tell us the exact amounts of what went in to the soap, then honestly you should not be making soap right now. Sorry to be blunt about it, but that is the truth.


----------



## ngian (Apr 29, 2015)

Wow! The admins must put an emergency ribbon on this thread title and a big sign saying KEEP OUT -  EXCESSIVE LYE INSIDE!


----------



## kchaystack (Apr 29, 2015)

I do not know what youtube videos you watched...  but they really did not show you correctly.  

Try searching for Soaping 101 and Soap Queen TV.  Look for their beginner's tutorials.  And do not make any more soap until you understand how to mix your lye, and weigh out your materials.


----------



## KristaY (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm wondering about the lye. Is it only NaOH or a drain cleaner that has other ingredients? Or any type of lye at all? When I add my first division of lye (either NaOH or KOH) it starts to heat immediately. I usually pour a bit of lye, stir, pour again, stir....until it's all in the water. By the time I get it all added, it's way up there in temp. Since the OP's water never heated, I wonder what's really being added.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 29, 2015)

Food gelatin? Whoopsie daisy. 

As was said, put the pots and pans down, make a cup of whatever you like to drink and get a better grip on the basics first - invest a little time now to save a LOT of wasted time later. 

Soaping 101 basic soap making would be an ideal start. Seriously, which videos did you watch that gave you these ideas?


----------



## Sonya-m (Apr 29, 2015)

Omg!! I'm all for helping out beginners especially as I've only been soaping for 5 months. But seriously?? How did you know how much lye to add and do you know how much you actually added? Where did you get your lye from - are you sure it's sodium hydroxide?

What about oils? How much in grams - no point telling us in cans as they could be tiny or huge cans?? 

Usually I'd say it could be saved but I think this concoction really needs to be disposed off. 

Research on here, decide on a basic recipe - even if you find a recipe on here be sure to run it through a soap calculator to check the numbers for yourself too 

Videos alone are not enough to start your soaping adventures, you need to read, read, read and then read some more


----------



## Susie (Apr 29, 2015)

You need to dispose of that mess ASAP.  You do not know what is in there as far as how much lye to how much oil.  I would pour that mixture back into the jars the ingredients came out of and dispose of it in the trash.  Be sure to secure the lids down well.

Go watch this:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWnqXTqZTvU[/ame]

Then read this:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49627

Then we can have a place to start discussing proper soapmaking with you.


----------



## Seawolfe (Apr 29, 2015)

Until you are using a good digital scale and a soaping calculator, there is a possibility that you are making hazmat instead of soap. 

Please check out the links in Susies post and here is another good one for beginners: http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/cold-process-soap/free-beginners-guide-to-soapmaking-cold-process/


----------



## shunt2011 (Apr 29, 2015)

You really need to put everything aside and do some research. You are playing Russian roulette with soap and a chemical. It's no wonder you didn't get soap. You have very little knowledge of what you are doing. Read, research, read and watch reputable you tube videos then read more until you have a bit of basic knowledge.


----------



## Dahila (Apr 29, 2015)

I wonder if he is just making fools of us?  I had never seen something like that....


----------



## galaxyMLP (Apr 29, 2015)

Dahila said:


> I wonder if he is just making fools of us? I had never seen something like that....


 

I just looked up "soap ricing" on google. The image that the OP posted is the second image. That image is from the soap queens blog on soap behaving badly. http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/tips-and-tricks/soap-behaving-badly/

Maybe this person is just messing with us? 

I've never seen the recommendation to add lard or gelatin to salvage soap though soooo...?


----------



## shunt2011 (Apr 29, 2015)

We can only hope this is a hoax of some kind.  Otherwise it's very concerning for sure.   Time will tell if the poster returns.


----------



## lpstephy85 (Apr 29, 2015)

I knew that picture looked familiar but didn't want to say something and people think I was nuts!


----------



## Seawolfe (Apr 29, 2015)

Good point - I hope it is a hoax. Easier to deal with


----------



## IrishLass (Apr 29, 2015)

It may or may not be a hoax- it can go either way- but I don't think it's to big of a stretch to think that it could be for real, especially given the plethora of bad soaping info and videos that run amok on the net. It's truly dangerous out there for a newbie! 

Whichever the case may be, I agree with the others- the soap needs to be tossed! 


IrishLass


----------



## Dahila (Apr 29, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> We can only hope this is a hoax of some kind.  Otherwise it's very concerning for sure.   Time will tell if the poster returns.



You should check if  the same IP belongs to more than one account.  I know the style somehow..........


----------



## Sonya-m (Apr 30, 2015)

I think the reason they've used that pic is cos they mention they read the post showing what ricing etc looks like so has simply taken it from there - I don't think they were saying that pic was their soap - I doubt very much theirs resembles even that!


----------



## galaxyMLP (Apr 30, 2015)

Oops! I didn't realize that that was the image for ricing that is posted in the sticky on the beginning soapers forum. Now I feel bad.

At this point, if OP is truly unsure of what exactly went into the soap, I would toss it as well.


----------



## origo (Apr 30, 2015)

Ooooo hold your horses.
Thank you for writing 3 pages of "throw that crap" .

Yes, I'm a real person. Yes I google'd "bad homemade soap" and found that picture that matches mine. What's wrong in that ?!?!

So what I did yesterday:

I put all that "bad soap" to heat, until it boiled a little and started smelling like hell. Some liquids rise to the surface of the mixtures. I drained them using the spaghetti drain plate (bad idea, because I forgot it's aluminum...)

Then I poorer some pork fat (aprox 1kg), because I remember I read somewhere that it makes the soap hard. and put some 30 drops of ylang-ylang and 20 drops of lavander essential oils in it to make it smell good. But hell, it was still smelling like crap... anyway

I started mixing it with the blender.

For everybody who contest that I'm the real thing I'm hereby attaching a picture.







So the mixture was like making a cake now, hard but with boulders inside.
Anyway, I let it 1 day, and this morning I stuffed it in the freezer. -30 degrees should make it hard for cutting

I remind you all of you that Thomas Edison tested lots of "ingredients" until it found the one suitable for his purpose. This is what I'm planning to do!

Will keep you posted with what's next.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 30, 2015)

Well, Edison did not go right back to the stone-age to start again - he did GOOD research and came to USEFUL conclusions and made actual ADVANCEMENTS.

While I think everyone should try things, there should be some sense to what they are doing at the very least - even if everyone knows it will not work.  For example, your methods seem to be woefully slapdash.  You cannot make soap like you would season a dish.  "I'll chuck in some of this and a bit of that and see what happens".  It just doesn't work that way at all.

For example, freezing to cut it will only work if it will also firm up on its own.  You can freeze water, cut it and then you'll have puddles again one it melts.  If your soap is not going to firm up well, freezing it to cut it won't solve that at all.

I'll remind YOU that this is a place where you can get advice and help in making soap.  But only if you want it and are willing to accept it.  If you just want to carry on as you want regardless of advice, you will find that people will stop trying to help and spend their time more effectively.


----------



## Susie (Apr 30, 2015)

Origo-I am the last person to tell folks to throw batches away.  But you need to throw that away and start from scratch with a recipe you have run through a lye calculator and weighed out carefully.  

Soapmaking is a science first.  You must have X amount of lye to saponify Y amount of oil.  If you have too much lye, you have a product that is not safe to use.  That rule does not change.  

I am glad to see you using gloves and glasses, but please use safety goggles of some sort.  That stick blender can fling drops right up under those glasses.  I ended up with a lye burn on my eyelid that scared me enough to get safety goggles.  You can get some for $1 at Dollar Tree.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 30, 2015)

I will also add that your mask protects from dust but not fumes and gasses - so it's really not helping in any way but rather will give a false sense of security which could lead to more issues.


----------



## shunt2011 (Apr 30, 2015)

Origo, we are all very willing to help as long as you are willing to listen.  

As stated, soapmaking is scientific and requires measuring accurately as well as using a lye calculator.  Even if you can get what you've made to look like soap, chances are it's going to be dangerous for someone to use.  
THROW IT AWAY.  Check out the links that many have posted and do some reading.  Then if you have questions, please feel free to ask.  But as TEG stated if you refuse to listen to the advice being given many will just stop.


----------



## dixiedragon (Apr 30, 2015)

Origo,  you can't just throw stuff in a pot and hope it works out. Unless you know EXACTLY (within a few grams) how much lye, water and oil you've got in that batch, you have NO IDEA if that stuff is safe.  Unless you can back-track your process to calculate how much of each ingredient you used, you need to start over.


----------



## Dahila (Apr 30, 2015)

BTW guys when you mix soap are you doing it under the hood with ventilation on full?  I do not use masks, only when I am working with SCI or Sles, powder form.....
Orgio you are being arrogant , and this forum and people do not deserve it .   
I could be your mom,  My oldest child is 35 already, so think please.


----------



## OliveOil2 (Apr 30, 2015)

Orgio I think you are enjoying the reaction you are receiving, and there is a good reason that your 'Bad Soap' smelled like Hell. There are plenty of good recipes,and many here would be glad to make suggestions on a real recipe that has been run through a lye calculator. if you choose to improvise the way you are doing, there is nothing anyone here can do to help you. Bottom line you need to use a digital scale, and a lye calculator, and if you choose not to do so you are being extremely careless.


----------



## Seawolfe (Apr 30, 2015)

Its not an experiment if you have no record of what you are doing or the exact amounts you are using. Your method is just playing with hazmat.


----------



## not_ally (Apr 30, 2015)

Origo, sorry if we thought you were a troll - I admit, I did too, because I have never seen a post involving not measuring and then just kind of adding as you go along.  

You got some spectacularly bad advice before you made it, if it involved making cp/hp of any kind w/out using a lye calculator, that is crazy and (IMO, verging on criminally negligent, a disaster waiting to happen.)  I would discard it ENTIRELY (both the advice and the soap) and start over.  I am a fellow newbie, and not a natural/prodigy like some (cough, Sonya , so I hope you take this input in the spirit of newb good fellowship in which it is offered.  Maybe you already know/have this stuff, if so, just disregard.

What you need right now:  a reasonably good digital scale is indispensable (you can get an Ozeri on Amazon for less than $20, but it is a non-negotiable (plus you can use it for measuring food.)  As Susie and others have said, some safety goggles - I bought some fancy onion ones and then found out that I liked my $1.00 store ones better  

A whisk, and if possible, a stick blender.  I am really picky about these, so mine are Cuisinarts with detachable metal shanks b/c I like the fact that the shanks are stainless steel and easy to clean, but they are a bit expensive if you are just trying this out and not sure if you want to continue.  Maybe others will chip in w/suggestions about good cheap ones, also I know I have seen threads about this.  I know some folks have picked them up at Goodwill, other second hand places/yard sales, etc. You can live w/o the SB, especially if you are using a quick tracing oil mix, but mine is slow so it would take quite a while to trace if I didn't alternate stirring/whisking/SB'ing.  

I *wanted* to start with a slow-tracing mix b/c I was really afraid of what I'd read about the dreading accelaration/seizing/ricing factors.  It was actually kind of good to do the first several batches using mostly a whisk so I could figure out what it meant for the oils to emulsify/go into slow and then faster trace.  Once I did, I liked having the flexibility of the SB, to move things along, though.

A good simple recipe - many suggest starting with some kind of split of what soapmakers call "the trinity" - historically olive, coconut and palm.  Not sure if you are opposed to using animal fats, but many on this board - including me - love lard, it creates a beautiful, white, creamy lathered and moisturizing bar.  Susie often recommends this recipe for beginners, and I loved it, although I am starting to up the lard!:

Lard 55%
Coconut Oil 20%
Olive Oil 20%
Castor Oil 5%

You really did get some bad advice starting out, I hope you will stick around and take advantage of some of the good stuff on this thread.  This is such a great hobby for someone like me, it pays for itself in droves in terms of fun, experimentation, and personal satisfaction.


----------



## dixiedragon (Apr 30, 2015)

Origo, you still haven't answered questions about the lye. Can you post a pic? I just don't think it's possible to combine lye (meaning sodium hydroxide) and water and not get heat. I am very concerned you used some type of non-lye drain cleaner. Red Devil used to be lye, and now it's not, but I can see a soaper reading an older article or blog post and picking up a can of Red Devil without reading the ingredients.


----------



## Sonya-m (Apr 30, 2015)

Until the OP decides to use some sense and throw this mess out, research and develop an accurately measured recipe I don't think there's anymore we can do to help. 

I'm shocked at the whole throwing this in, adding a bit of the other etc - no respect at all for the care and attention to detail that's needed each and every time you make soap


----------



## Sonya-m (Apr 30, 2015)

not_ally said:


> I am a fellow newbie, and not a natural/prodigy like some (cough, Sonya



 I'm just a perfectionist and plan everything as much as I can (obviously if a new FO decides not to play nice no amount of planning helps)


----------



## not_ally (Apr 30, 2015)

I am curious to see if the OP answers.  I am still willing to give  him the benefit of the doubt, if he is real he is a non-native speaker (I did not catch that the first time round and would have been more clear with my answers if I had) and maybe found some bad soap making sites, or misread them, which could happen to anyone. 

If that is the case, Origo, I hope you will stay and learn, there is a *lot* to be learned here.  Also, if that is true, ask for explanations, always, if an answer does not make sense to you.  That is the very best way to find things out, and makes you seem smart rather than the opposite.

If not, I think the hoax theory will be confirmed.  And will wish I had not spent so much time typing out that long boring post to those of you guys who already know about it.  Also, it would make me feel like a sucker for believing it, I never lie (would if I could, but my trembling lips and facial tics give me away    And hate it when people make me feel that way.


----------



## origo (May 1, 2015)

Ok so if you add too much lye then the soap will burn your hands when you use it. 
But if you add too much oils then shouldn't the lye combine with SOME of the oils then you drain the excessive oils and voila you have good soap ?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 1, 2015)

Not always. 

Please, stop - look at the thread about using a lye calculator and give it a try. It's not that hard but keeps things easier to manage, no more having to add more of this because it needs it. 

I seriously don't know where you got this foundation from, but it is not good at all. 

Eta - how would drain the oils?


----------



## not_ally (May 1, 2015)

Origo, you *have* to go back and click on some of the basic links that people have posted here.  I don't think you understand how dangerous and upsetting some of the things you are saying are.  Please read this who thread carefully, click on links that people have suggested, and come back after that.  Really, you are just wrong (I very rarely say that, you have pushed me on this) and then let us know what you think.

I think once you do - if you are not trying to torture us - you will have a better sense of why people are having trouble understanding your questions.

I'm not going to comment on this thread anymore, as I do not like having my chain yanked, if that is what is happening.


----------



## Susie (May 1, 2015)

Origo, once you have mixed the lye with the "too much" oils, you will not have chunks of soap in a container of excess oils.  It just does not work that way.  You are going to have a big mess.  And the more you add to it, the bigger it is going to get.

I am more than happy to help you figure out how to make soap the first time, as are many others.  However, this is not the way to accomplish it.  Get rid of that mess(do NOT pour it down your plumbing), and the put away the oils and lye until you get a couple of days of basic soapmaking lessons under your belt.  Then we can help you go from there.  I think you have the interest and the desire to learn that is necessary, you just need some basics of how to proceed correctly.


----------



## JayJay (May 1, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> Oops! I didn't realize that that was the image for ricing that is posted in the sticky on the beginning soapers forum. Now I feel bad.
> 
> At this point, if OP is truly unsure of what exactly went into the soap, I would toss it as well.



I don't think that you should feed badly. I am still wondering how someone would know enough about soaping to: 
1.  know what ricing is, 
2.  have been on soap queen's website to copy a picture, 
3.  after all of this, not know that one should measure ingredients and run through a lye calculator? 

This is weird to say the least. Maybe the OP has read the warnings before but has disregarded them.  Either way, I think that it is normal to wonder what is going on here.


----------



## Sonya-m (May 1, 2015)

As others have said, please throw out what you've done as there's no safe way of bringing it together now as you haven't kept accurate details of what you've added

What you have there is potentially very dangerous. 

My basic recipe is:

75% lard
20% coconut oil
5% castor oil

You could try plugging this into soapcalc once you know how much oil you intend to use then pop back here with the result it gives and we can let you know if you're good to go


----------



## origo (May 1, 2015)

Thank you for your kind words (throw that away) and deep instructions (click the tutorials).

 My heart didn't let me throw that stuff, I'll keep it as my first soap-ish mixture, put it in a nice place, and look at it from time to time to remind myself the long road that I've walked. 

now I have another problem, I putted lye all over the kitchen, and it stained everything


----------



## kumudini (May 1, 2015)

OMG, I have been following this thread and really amazed to see our forum members doing what they always do, ever so lovingly. Try to give good advice and guide the OP in the right direction. I say the word 'try' as it seems so much good advice is falling on deaf ears. From the start I had a bad feeling about this, and is being confirmed over and over again. Can't put my finger on exactly what it is but looks like the OP just woke up one day and decided he is going to make great soap just like that, like a master chef of sorts who could whip up magic out of anything. I wonder why he even came on the forum if he does not need advice and would not directly respond to anything people are saying. May be it is time to let this thread go in to oblivion as nothing positive is ever going to come out of this. I will be happy to be proved wrong.


----------



## Sonya-m (May 1, 2015)

origo said:


> Thank you for your kind words (throw that away) and deep instructions (click the tutorials).
> 
> My heart didn't let me throw that stuff, I'll keep it as my first soap-ish mixture, put it in a nice place, and look at it from time to time to remind myself the long road that I've walked.
> 
> now I have another problem, I putted lye all over the kitchen, and it stained everything




We weren't telling you to throw it to be nasty - it just really isn't safe, we were trying to help so you didn't get injured

As for the instructions - plenty of people tried to give you instructions or provided links to great instructions - what was the point of writing it all out if the link provided all you needed??

By all means keep it but it will never be soap. 

If you have lye all over i would suggest using vinegar to clean it up (though it's still questionable that you actually used lye as it didn't heat)


----------



## HappyHomeSoapCo (May 1, 2015)

origo said:


> now I have another problem, I putted lye all over the kitchen, and it stained everything


 
This gave me a big belly laugh. You've lost your mind. Or you're really just full of **** and you're making everyone else loose their minds. Hahaaaaa. This is one big joke. I hope you're having fun.


----------



## Dahila (May 1, 2015)

origo said:


> Thank you for your kind words (throw that away) and deep instructions (click the tutorials).
> 
> My heart didn't let me throw that stuff, I'll keep it as my first soap-ish mixture, put it in a nice place, and look at it from time to time to remind myself the long road that I've walked.
> 
> now I have another problem, I putted lye all over the kitchen, and it stained everything


 Incredible:?:


----------



## HappyHomeSoapCo (May 1, 2015)

And if you actually did follow correct instructions. That. Are. Everywhere. On. The. Internet. 

You'd actually be pretty proud of yourself for making real soap.

Oh ya..... And "a long road that I've walked"..... hahaaa. Only one half a$$ attempt is no long road. Try going a year, lol


----------



## dixiedragon (May 1, 2015)

origo said:


> Thank you for your kind words (throw that away) and deep instructions (click the tutorials).
> 
> My heart didn't let me throw that stuff, I'll keep it as my first soap-ish mixture, put it in a nice place, and look at it from time to time to remind myself the long road that I've walked.
> 
> now I have another problem, I putted lye all over the kitchen, and it stained everything



I really REALLY think you don't have lye. Lye doesn't stain. Lye might BLEACH (leave white spots). I think you need to call the manufacturer of whatever it is you think is lye and ask them a) how to dispose of your "soap" and b) clean up this stuff that's all over your kitchen.


----------



## lizard1232 (May 1, 2015)

I'm sorry, but this is the best thread on the entire forum. I have no advice to give other than use Comet on those stains, guy. How about the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to being helpful, huh? I can't seem to find any helpful information you've given when asked very specific questions. I applaud you for your utter and complete unwillingness to cooperate and then blame everyone else because you have no clue what you're doing. When you burn your face off, will that be the fault of the individuals on the forum that have been trying to help you even though your perception is so skewed you can't (or won't) admit it? Regardless, thank you for the entertainment value.


----------



## janzo (May 2, 2015)

This guy is just yanking your chains.  One minute is English is really good and the next he can hardly form a sentence but meanwhile his punctuation is perfect. It seems to me he is trying to sound foreign.  Cynical.....maybe


----------



## Susie (May 2, 2015)

I have seen this forum go through some controversial issues, but I don't think I have ever seen it degenerate to the point where it is acceptable to call people names.  I am truly disappointed.


----------



## not_ally (May 2, 2015)

Susie, I think people are reacting to the fact that, at least to me, it seems more and more clear that the OP is a troll and just enjoying riling us up.  Just re-read his posts, and it *does* seem as if (a) he had enough basic knowledge to not just throw stuff in willy-nilly and not understand why it is upsetting and (b) his language/diction does seem to sort of go in and out, sometimes he uses colloquialisms which are standard, and then something that is not pops in, as if he is doing it on purpose.

Anyway, I do get why people are so irritated.  This is a great board with people that work hard to help others, so when someone comes on for the express purpose of generating tsuris - why do people do that, it makes no sense to me? - it makes you feel stupid and frustrated for falling for the game.  I do agree with you about the name-calling, though, I save that for when I am driving in LA and no one else can hear me.  ("Really, Porsche guy, you have to cut me off at the ramp after having a mile to merge, you &*^*^!")


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 2, 2015)

I quite agree with Susie.  No matter what the OP does or doesn't do, we should remember the terms of the forums and not lower ourselves beneath where we know we should be


----------



## Seawolfe (May 2, 2015)

Maybe, but I still think it's fair to call out someone who is behaving in a trollish manner. Even if his soaping experience is exactly as claimed, down to swaths of lye stains all over his kitchen, he has refused to follow any requests for more information, and berated people for providing informative links and reiterating the basic rules of soap making.


----------



## Obsidian (May 2, 2015)

I can't believe you guys are still trying to help. You've offered advice, posted links, even given lists of supplies. Now its up to the OP if he wants to listen or not. You should just let this tread die, its not serving any purpose but to inflame you all.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 2, 2015)

Okay, in the interests of sanity, I have closed this thread.  The questions have been answered, there are enough links and advice in here to set the OP on the way to making what is actually soap.

To the OP (and a general psa) - bear in mind that access to this forum is not a right, it is a privilege.  One that can and WILL be removed in instances where people do not play by the rules.  This is not a free-for-all, it is not a democracy - the terms of use, the rules for each section and the expectations that we all have on one another are not optional.  If you want to use this site, you have to do so within the confines of these conditions.  This forum is what is it _because_ we make sure that a certain conditional membership is applied.  The vast majority of the people who actually bring something worthwhile to this site are the ones who abide by the conditions.  The people who do not abide by it are very often people who add nothing positive to the forum anyway.  It is one of the reasons that I agreed to be a moderator, because there is something in the community here that works really well - not in spite of the terms of use, but because of them.


----------

