# Shea Butter vs Cocoa Butter



## MotherGoddess (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm brand new to soap making with one whole batch under my belt, but I've already got plans for probably the next 5   8) .  I'm trying to keep my recipe simple, since I don't have the funds to spend on a lot of different oils and I want to get a simple recipe down before I branch out into more complicated stuff.  My first batch was actually goat milk, oatmeal, honey, and although I'm sure I added my lye too quickly and burnt my milk (turned pumpkin orange) and achieved a partial gel, and had a huge recipe, I think it will turn out to be usable.  I had no idea I was jumping in with an intermediate/advanced soap and have lots of plans to get it better in the future.  My next batch will be just 32 oz of oils and just Olive oil, Coconut oil, Palm oil, and castor oil.  However, the batch after that I want to include shea or cocoa butter in place of some of the coconut oil (yes, I've been using soapcalc to play with the recipies and make sure my numbers are right).  So my question is, which do you prefer, or what are the different qualities of shea butter vs cocoa butter.  How does it change your finished product?  I assume I'll eventually get around to making a batch of each and seeing for myself how they compare, but for now I need a jumping off point for deciding how to start.


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## trishwosere (Oct 15, 2011)

I think it's a case of each to his/her own, personally I prefer shea over cocoa. I use the same oils as you with the addition of shea and I love how it makes my soap feel, it seems to nourish the skin and not dry it out. It also has the added bonus of being a lot cheaper than cocoa butter - it is here in the U.K anyway


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## MotherGoddess (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks trish.  From the prices I'm looking at, cocoa butter seems a little more expensive then shea butter, but not prohibitively so.  Well shoot, I may just have to make a batch of each .  An additional question, how do they work together in a soap?  Do those of you who have very complex recipies with 8 or more oils (jojoba, avacodo, etc) find it makes a truly superior bar of soap then the ones with just 3 or 4 oils?


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## Soaplady22 (Oct 15, 2011)

> An additional question, how do they work together in a soap? Do those of you who have very complex recipies with 8 or more oils (jojoba, avacodo, etc) find it makes a truly superior bar of soap then the ones with just 3 or 4 oils?



They work together well - I used to do it all the time. But now I'm low on cocoa butter. As for many oils vesus the few ....... it all depends on your recipe and how the oils work together. Many of us have gone from simple to ridiculous and then returned to simple with our heads hanging in grief but all the wiser. It really just depends on your recipe. And you just have to keep experiementing, changing one thing at a time.

BTW - jojoba is much better used in a lotion. Just thought I'd say ~
Avocado is nice though!!


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## judymoody (Oct 15, 2011)

I prefer cocoa butter over shea - I like the hardness it imparts to the bar and shea tends to ash on me if I don't gel.  Also shea allergy is fairly common.

I tried about every soaping oil under the sun and now I'm back to the basics - OO, CO (or PKO), PO, and sometimes castor or CB.


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## carebear (Oct 15, 2011)

I'm with Judy.  I prefer cocoa butter over shea.  It adds to the dense lather that coconut lacks.  Shea does as well, but it's not as great, IMO.


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## Bukawww (Oct 15, 2011)

I prefer shea over cocoa so definitely a personal preference issue.

I think it softens the edges of my high coconut oil soap (coconut and shea butter only)...I made a bar of coconut/cocoa butter and found it to be very drying for some reason and I don't get that just by replacing it with shea so I dunno.

I only use simple recipes.  I have a high olive and a high coconut that seems to pretty much please the masses.  3 oils or less for me.


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## Lynnz (Oct 15, 2011)

I started out using Shea but turned to Cocoa Butter after doing comparisson tests as I feel my bars are harder for the use of it and just that tad more dense in lather.....................Yip it costs more but I cannot imagine soap without it now


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## Stinkydancer (Oct 15, 2011)

I like them both and use both. Cocoa butter can break some people out so that is something to think about. I can't use it on my face for that reason. 

I say go with whatever recipe you like. The most important thing is to work within your budget and remember sometimes the simplest soap recipes are the best.

Good luck!


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## kbuska (Oct 15, 2011)

Its just my opinion but stay on the simple side using core oils. It's fun to experiment here and there but you can also get carried away spend way to much money and end up with a really expensive bar of soap that chemically is similar to soap that is made with simple commonly used oils. 

Again this is just my opinion from my own research.


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## Stinkydancer (Oct 15, 2011)

kbuska said:
			
		

> Its just my opinion but stay on the simple side using core oils. It's fun to experiment here and there but you can also get carried away spend way to much money and end up with a really expensive bar of soap that chemically is similar to soap that is made with simple commonly used oils.
> 
> Again this is just my opinion from my own research.



Is it research or actual soap making? I have been making soap over 20 years and what was the norm then isn't what it is now. 

You better bring something to the table if you make soap and plan to sell it. Soap recipes using "Core oils" aren't enough for buyers anymore since everyone and their mother makes soap now. If you want to do well in the soap biz, you really need a good moisturizing product with oils people want on their skin. 
Shea and Cocoa add great qualities to soap and are worth the money. Soap making isn't cheap if you plan to sell. You can make cheap soap for home but for the market- not so much. 
This has been my experience...


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## kbuska (Oct 15, 2011)

What does Shea butter add once it's consumed by the lye.


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## Stinkydancer (Oct 15, 2011)

Creaminess...and in high Olive Oil content- hardness if you forgo Palm, Lard or Tallow. Cocoa Butter does the same.


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## kbuska (Oct 15, 2011)

I do want to get into a debate with you because with 20 years behind you you have much more experience but I have made soap with and without Shea butter and can tell very little difference. In soap calc I bet you can make an equally great bar of soap using other ingredients. 

My whole point is there are many ways to skin a cat, and you don't need to invest a ton of money on exotic oils or butters to make a great bar of soap. Not that Shea butter is exotic or expensive. It was merely an observation.

I do agree with you that customers hear names like Shea butter and marketing tells them, it must be more moisturizing.


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## Bubbles Galore (Oct 16, 2011)

Stinkydancer means for "label appeal" as well. Consumers are more sophisticated these days and follow the trends.

In my experience, when I tried 5% Shea Butter in soap it didn't seem to make much difference, so I tried 10% and couldn't tell the difference between 5 & 10%, so I went to 20% and then I could say it made a difference (in my recipe). However like you "kbuska" I prefer my basic, simple recipe.  :wink: 

I like both cocoa butter and shea butter but I probably prefer Shea Butter at the moment. This could change.


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## paillo (Oct 16, 2011)

i mostly use shea because it's so much less expensive than cocoa butter and i agree it adds creaminess.  i add sodium lactate for hardness and for its natural humectant properties, and always tussah silk.

my core oils are organic, sustainable palm, coconut, olive, avocado or sweet almond, castor and shea (at about 20 percent). but i went wild a while back and bought all kinds of other oils, now trying to use them up as well -- rice bran, grapeseed, high oleic sunflower, babassu. but i prefer my tried-and-true cores...

agree that buyers are pretty sophisticated and 'label appeal' is important. but do what you like best, it is largely a matter of personal preference and what makes you happiest soaping


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## Stinkydancer (Oct 16, 2011)

kbuska said:
			
		

> I do want to get into a debate with you because with 20 years behind you you have much more experience but I have made soap with and without Shea butter and can tell very little difference. In soap calc I bet you can make an equally great bar of soap using other ingredients.
> 
> My whole point is there are many ways to skin a cat, and you don't need to invest a ton of money on exotic oils or butters to make a great bar of soap. Not that Shea butter is exotic or expensive. It was merely an observation.
> 
> I do agree with you that customers hear names like Shea butter and marketing tells them, it must be more moisturizing.



Sorry if I came off rude- that wasn't my intention at all. 

I do agree that you can make a great bar of soap cheap but certain oils can kick it up a notch. My most favorite recipe for personal use doesn't use either of these butters at all. But I don't think my customers would like the slime factor of a high OO bar. 

I think it depends on percentages you use as to whether or not you can tell as well. 
Soaping is all about the synergy of the oils and everyone's recipe is different so what works for some may not work for others. 
I say go with what you like best and what works for your skin as well. 
 8)


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## Elly (Oct 16, 2011)

Interesting thread, I've never used shea butter in my soaps but I am going to give a go. It is really helpful to read about this issues here, thanks guys  :wink:


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## MotherGoddess (Oct 16, 2011)

Hey, thanks for all the replies.  This turned out to be a really interesting topic!  I'm glad to hear that a lot of you stick with very simple soap recipes, as that's what speaks to me the most right now.  Is there a place that lists all of the different oils and what attributes they provide in a finished soap product?  Like that coconut oil can be drying but produces good bubbles?  What does palm oil contribute other than hardness?  When tweaking my recipe to include shea butter or cocoa butter should I borrow percentages from coconut oil or from palm oil?  

I can't even start my next batch of soap until my BB order arrives, lol, but this is what's swirling around in my head right now.


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## LisaNY (Oct 16, 2011)

Stinkydancer said:
			
		

> kbuska said:
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I know lots of successful soapers who only use basic core oils (CO, Palm(or PKO) and Olive) - it can be done. )

Also, soap does not moisturize - it cleans.  (You can claim gentle and non-drying, but not moisturizing, IMO.)  )


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## busymakinsoap! (Oct 16, 2011)

I use shea and cocoa butter in every batch.  I have recently changed my recipe and this was to replace the palm - shea for creaminess and cocoa butter for hardness.

It's a lot more expensive - BUT I wouldn't go back now.
The main difference for me is the batter - butters in a recipe make a beautiful creamy batter and you can get beautiful textured tops, which is the look I like.

I thought the label apeal would be more appealing, but even though I skite about it, most people are not that interested......for me people are more concerned with how it looks and smells, but that depends on your niche I guess.

As for the final product, I do prefer it over my other recipes and I have to say that after using both butters for the last 3 months, my skin has never been better.


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## Soaplady22 (Oct 16, 2011)

Ditto for the saying that soap cleans -- if your skin is dry try drinking more water. Seriously. Your skin is moisturized from the inside out. As far as to how it feels .... my shea butter loaded recipe works wonders for me; I use vertually no lotion in the winter any more. As in, my 14 oz bottle of Johnson's body lotion has been sitting here going on 2 1/2 years and is only about half empty.

But then, I do tend to stay hydrated during the day.
Oh well ~

Just rambling -- I'm bored waiting for my soap to be ready to unmold!!


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## DMCC (Oct 16, 2011)

busymakinsoap! said:
			
		

> I use shea and cocoa butter in every batch.  I have recently changed my recipe and this was to replace the palm - shea for creaminess and cocoa butter for hardness.
> 
> It's a lot more expensive - BUT I wouldn't go back now.
> The main difference for me is the batter - butters in a recipe make a beautiful creamy batter and you can get beautiful textured tops, which is the look I like.
> ...



I also use both shea butter and cocoa butter in every batch.  After experimenting with MANY, MANY, MANY different oil and butter combinations I arrived at my "Ultimate Recipe"  that includes both butters.  As most soapers know, it's a very beautiful and emotional thing when you arrive at that ultimate recipe that's yours.

I find that the combination of both shea butter and cocoa butter adds such a rich, soft, heavy, creaminess to the lather.  The batter and final product is very creamy and creamy looking.  In addition, you can't beat the hardness from the cocoa butter.   

I've tried shea, cocoa and mango in just about every different scenerio possible.  Cocoa butter _AND_ shea butter is where it's at for me!


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## Stinkydancer (Oct 16, 2011)

Yes soap does clean but I prefer the soap doesn't turn my skin into the Sahara. I bought a soap recently that did that so saying it doesn't moisturize and only cleans is wrong. A high OO bar does definitely moisturize so not sure where a soap is only for cleaning and can't lend to moisturization of the skin comes from. I have used soap on my skin for several years pretty much all of my years and rarely do I have to use a lotion. 

I guess if your formulating for personal use only it doesn't matter. But it does matter if you are formulating for the masses. You don't want to go stripping people's skin off and expect them to keep buying soap. That was my whole point.

Soapers who formulate with butters know the advantages. Everyone's tastes are different.


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## Stinkydancer (Oct 16, 2011)

LisaNY said:
			
		

> Stinkydancer said:
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Hmmm...I beg to differ on that one but only with Castile.


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## kbuska (Oct 17, 2011)

Check out the Everything Soap Making book. In it is a list of oils, there fatty acid makeup and what they bring to the table. 

It's been said many times. You can't control what the lye will consume but I guess if you use a high percentage of X oil or butter, a higher percent of your superfat will be that oil. I've even tried adding Shea butter at trace with little difference. 

You could reduce your superfat and then rebatch Shea butter into it. 

Hmm has anyone done that?  Sounds interesting...


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## PrairieCraft (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm in the 'don't get what the big deal is about butters' camp.  Whether my own formula's or other soaper's bars, that I've tried for comparisons.  It does make a creamy batter and smooth feeling bar, kind of like a bar made with lard. Just my opinion but I've yet to be hugely impressed by any soap made with butters.  May be that I'm a weirdo though, because I use mostly OO.  To me it isn't slimey, rather super creamy.  For label appeal, it probably depends on your area, a lot of people don't even look at the label.  There are plenty of label checkers out there though, I am one.  

When choosing between the two, I like shea because it's easier to work with. *lazy*  Now this has made me want to go try a batch with a bunch of butter!


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## LisaNY (Oct 17, 2011)

Stinkydancer said:
			
		

> LisaNY said:
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How does your castile soap actually moisturize the skin?  I can see it leaving your skin feeling less stripped of its natural oils if you up your superfat levels and keep your Lauric acid levels below a certain %, but I do not understand how a soap (a wash-off product) can actually bring oils to your skin like a lotion does.


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## Stinkydancer (Oct 17, 2011)

Since Glycerin is left over, I'm sure that has something to do with it. So if this combines with nice oils and the soap is superfatted (I do mine anywhere from 5-8% deoending), you have a thin layer of oils deposited onto the skin. I wish you could feel my skin and this would say it all. 

If you want a scientific explanation- well I can't give you that. I just go by what my picky skin does.


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## LisaNY (Oct 17, 2011)

Stinkydancer said:
			
		

> Since Glycerin is left over, I'm sure that has something to do with it. So if this combines with nice oils and the soap is superfatted (I do mine anywhere from 5-8% deoending), you have a thin layer of oils deposited onto the skin. I wish you could feel my skin and this would say it all.
> 
> If you want a scientific explanation- well I can't give you that. I just go by what my picky skin does.



I understand what you are saying about the way your skin feels, as I superfat at 10%, and my skin feels great after a shower.  But, what I have read and studied on this subject tells me that it is due to my lower lauric acid and higher superfat %'s, and not a deposit of oils left on my skin.  Granted, higher sf %'s leave more of the oils in the soap due to less lye, I'm just not convinced that this translates to more oils left on your skin, since it's soap, and not lotion.

I am not trying to argue for the sake of arguing - I'm just genuinely curious about the science behind the claim.

Any science people out there?


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## FreeRabbit (Oct 17, 2011)

kbuska said:
			
		

> I do want to get into a debate with you because with 20 years behind you you have much more experience but I have made soap with and without Shea butter and can tell very little difference. In soap calc I bet you can make an equally great bar of soap using other ingredients.
> 
> My whole point is there are many ways to skin a cat, and you don't need to invest a ton of money on exotic oils or butters to make a great bar of soap. Not that Shea butter is exotic or expensive. It was merely an observation.
> 
> I do agree with you that customers hear names like Shea butter and marketing tells them, it must be more moisturizing.



you can't say diffrent ingridents don't affect soap in diffrent ways- that's the whole idea of using diffrent oils in the first place


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## carebear (Oct 17, 2011)

soap doesn't moisturize.  it's job is to remove oils from the skin.
how can they say that?  well first off, any soap that says it is moisturizing is making, then, a cosmetic claim and no longer can be sold as a soap and is no longer exempt from the manufacturing and label requirements of a cosmetic.

this said, people do all the time.

but if a soap doesn't strip your skin, people think it's moisturizing - go figure.  

if it works for you, though, then be happy.


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## busymakinsoap! (Oct 17, 2011)

This is a really interesting post. 

Everything I have read says soap doesn't moisturise, its a wash off product, this makes sense.

I have recently been working on sugar cube scrubs (this still relates lol)  I have trialled different recipes.  One is with melt and pour soap, oil and sugar.  It turns into a thick lotion when added with water, but even with all the added oil, the melt and pour one leaves no moisturisation on the skin - the skin feels soft, but you still need to moisturise (this is with equal amounts of oil to soap and is in comparison to a soap free emulsified butter scrub).

I'm going to try it with butters to see if it makes a difference......

But what is the difference between 'conditioning' and 'moisturising'?  Butters add lots of conditioning properties to soap (according to soapcalc)

Here is the definiton:

Condition - Conditioning refers to the soap’s emollient content.  A soap’s emollients are left on the skin. They help the skin  retain moisture.  They sooth the skin and keep it soft.  A range of 44 to 69 is satisfactory for this soap quality.


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## fiddletree (Oct 17, 2011)

I love love love my soap with a high shea butter content (around 25%).  I have the driest, most sensitive skin imaginable (and used to have the worst case of eczema a big city dermatologist had ever seen in his career), and there is a crazy difference between my skin now, using my shea soap, and before.  I actually have 'normal' skin now, which is a first for me in my life.  I don't know if it is moisturizing, or if it just doesn't strip my skin, but I do know it is better for me.  Just about everyone with sensitive and dry skin who has used my soap says the same thing, and they won't use any other soap now.  I think it's something you only notice if a) there is a significant % of butters in the soap and b) if it is someone with insanely dry skin using the soap.  

I'm a physicist with a significant chemistry background.... I'll put on  my scientist cap and see if I can come up with the science behind it and get back to y'all


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## MotherGoddess (Oct 17, 2011)

This is an awesome discussion guys, I'm learning so much!  So the very first batch I made had CO, PO, OO.  In order to add in butters, I'll have to decrease the amounts of the other oils to keep my batch the same size.  So what gets sacrificed?  If I cut out too much CO, it won't lather well, correct? If I cut out too much OO it won't be as mild?  Take a little from each?  What is PO's role in the soap other then hardness?  Should I be replacing that with the butters?  Thanks, all!


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## Elly (Oct 17, 2011)

The soaps that leave my skin feeling as if I had put lotion on are the ones that have high OO in them, I never knew why until I found that the unsaponifiables in OO have the highest squalene content of any other vegetable oil.  I used to make soaps with low %'s of OO and even though I up SF%'s still didn't make a soap I was happy with until I started to increase the OO content.  Haven't tried shea butter yet but that will be my next step, can't wait to try high OO plus shea butter yummm


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## Lindy (Oct 17, 2011)

Moisturizing is a misnomer when it comes to soap - conditioning is the right term because some of the oils of your superfat as well as the natural glycerin do remain on your skin.  Here in Canada soap is considered as a cosmetic and is governed as one.  If you make a soap with 0% SF you are going to have a soap with no, or very little conditioning ability, the higher your superfat the more free-floating oils are left in the soap itself.  It's also the reason that soaps with a higher SF (depending on the oil of course) leads to higher risk of DOS.

*kbuska *If you look at each oil/butter you will see differences in the profiles (caprylic, capric, Lauric, Myristic, Palmitic, Stearic, etc., etc.).  Each oil/butter brings something different to the table or else every single soap made by handcrafter's would be exactly the same.  The would all feel the same and they would all leave the skin in the same condition.  We know that's not true.

I am not knowledgeable enough to tell you what each of those things do to the soap, I understand the stearic and palmitic, but I do know they are different from oil to oil.  Through experimenting I know what I like in my soap.

Cheers


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## Elly (Oct 18, 2011)

> This is an awesome discussion guys, I'm learning so much! So the very first batch I made had CO, PO, OO. In order to add in butters, I'll have to decrease the amounts of the other oils to keep my batch the same size. So what gets sacrificed? If I cut out too much CO, it won't lather well, correct? If I cut out too much OO it won't be as mild? Take a little from each? What is PO's role in the soap other then hardness? Should I be replacing that with the butters? Thanks, all!



I've gone as little as 15% CO with good results but I've always added 5% Castor oil for stable bubbly lather.  I have learned to use higher CO %'s without getting a drying soap by increasing OO and SF %'s.  PO contributes not only to hardness but also to the creaminess and stability of lather but this can also be achieved by using butters tho these are less economical, many soapers believe that butters add to the conditioning qualities of the soap, other soapers don't use PO at all.  It is all a matter of what feels good for you, try different ratios and oils and make notes of the results, it is a lot of fun. Hope this helps, there are more experienced soapers here that will probably give you their invaluable advice.  :wink:


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## honor435 (Oct 18, 2011)

*shea, cocoa*

I like both, but am using shea lately, got a good deal on 10lbs.


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