# A moisturizing GM soap that is hard?



## narnia (Dec 30, 2015)

I want to use goat milk for my soaps.  On the lye calculator, I have fiddled with the numbers but if I make the numbers go up for "conditioning," the numbers go down for "hardness."

If I add hardness ingredients, it goes up in "cleansing" so that the oils are stripped from the skin.  I don't want to use lard....am I missing something here?

Thanks in advance for your help!


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## Obsidian (Dec 30, 2015)

You really need some kind of hard oil. The common ones are lard or palm but if neither of those are acceptable, shea butter and coco butter can be used but not too much or the soap might not lather well. I've used up to 20% shea and got pretty good lather but I did increase my coconut oil to 25%


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## narnia (Dec 31, 2015)

Thanks!  So that made a hard long-lasting bar?  What was the hardness number?

Palm oil is controversial...


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## Obsidian (Dec 31, 2015)

My hardness was 43, harder than my regular recipe. I was mistake on the coconut oil though, I used 30%. If I ever tried the recipe again I would go down to 25%.
Palm can be controversial but there are companies that sell sustainable palm. Are you vegetarian? Lard really does make the best soap and it's a product that often goes to waste.


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## LoveOscar (Dec 31, 2015)

I'm waiting for a milk recipe (full water replacement) to cure that is 53% OO, 28% CO, 17% Shea, and soap calc gives a hardness of 40. My second recipe is a bastile, with 80% OO, has a hardness of 19 lol.


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## Obsidian (Dec 31, 2015)

Keep in mind that the hardness numbers only tell you how physically hard a soap is, it tells nothing about how long lasting the bars is as they are two completely different properties.


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## LoveOscar (Dec 31, 2015)

That's why I laughed at the hardness of the bastille bar. Given enough time, that bastille bar will probably be pretty hard. I have no idea what to expect though in terms of long lasting. I had a salt bar barely last a month with constant use, just to use and test the snot out of it.


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## jules92207 (Dec 31, 2015)

Obsidian has the right idea, one of my favorite veggie bars without palm or lard have at least 25% coconut and 15% mix of cocoa butter and shea butter. It is plenty "hard" but it also lasts a pretty good while.


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## BrewerGeorge (Dec 31, 2015)

Add a percent or two of stearic acid (although I believe that's palm-derived if that's a problem for you.)


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## Obsidian (Dec 31, 2015)

Here is a bit of info about soapcalc numbers. Written by DeeAnne.



> So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:
> 
> 
> Lauric 0
> ...


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## narnia (Dec 31, 2015)

Obisdian, thank you so much for that lengthy explanation!  What an education!!

So, will using cocoa butter make as long a lasting bar as lard or palm oil?


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## lsg (Dec 31, 2015)

You can also use up to 3% sodium lactate for a harder bar


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## narnia (Dec 31, 2015)

lsg said:


> You can also use up to 3% sodium lactate for a harder bar



Up to what % can you use the SL?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 31, 2015)

For a harder bar? Up to 3%, as was said


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## narnia (Dec 31, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> For a harder bar? Up to 3%, as was said



Sorry...I misunderstood that.  I read it to be a 3% stearic acid solution.

Is it possible to make a goat milk bar hard?  Seems like I had read somewhere that goat milk soaps are always soft...


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## dillsandwitch (Jan 1, 2016)

I use GM in alot of my bars. They are all just as hard and long lasting as the bars of the same recipe that dont have GM in it


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## Obsidian (Jan 1, 2016)

My goat milk bars are also hard as ones made with water. It all depends on the recipe, I use 50% lard so I have a nice hard bar.


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## cmzaha (Jan 1, 2016)

Ditto. My GM soaps last as long as my other soaps. I use palm, lard or tallow or all three. You little bit of palm oil usage is not going to make any difference in the grand scheme of things. Several companies sell sustainable. Not sure if you are from the US but we are one of the smallest users of palm oil


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## mymy (Jan 1, 2016)

i once used up to 70% of palm oil for an experiment and the soap i made with it came out gorgeous. it lasted longer in the shower.


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## ngian (Jan 1, 2016)

Goat milk is just a liquid additive and cannot affect the softness of a recipe as others said. 

The only reason I can think of that will make a softer bar is only if you add the milk without replacing the water but instead add it to the total liquids in the recipe making a full liquid recipe soap (eg. 28% lye concentration). 

The more moisture the recipe will have, the more softer the bar will be, the more curing time it will need for its evaporation.


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## narnia (Jan 1, 2016)

ngian said:


> Goat milk is just a liquid additive and cannot affect the softness of a recipe as others said.
> 
> The only reason I can think of that will make a softer bar is only if you add the milk without replacing the water but instead add it to the total liquids in the recipe making a full liquid recipe soap (eg. 28% lye concentration).
> 
> The more moisture the recipe will have, the more softer the bar will be, the more curing time it will need for its evaporation.



I don't quite understand.  Are you saying that if I totally replace the amount of water called for with GM that it makes a softer bar?

I believe what I had read before, was that GM made a "spongier" bar.  Is that the same as a "softer" bar?


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## Obsidian (Jan 1, 2016)

No, totally replacing you water with milk won't make it softer. Adding extra milk to the normal amount of water would make a soft bar. My GM soap isn't spongy either, its identical to water only soap.

Milk can make your soap overheat, if it overheats too much then the soap could get a bit spongy.

Narnia, do you have a base recipe you like? If so, just use it and replace the water with milk.


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## ngian (Jan 1, 2016)

narnia said:


> I don't quite understand.  Are you saying that if I totally replace the amount of water called for with GM that it makes a softer bar?



No I am saying exactly the opposite. 

If your recipe calls for 150gr NaOH and 300gr water and if you don't replace water with milk but instead you add another for eg. 200gr milk, and thus having total of 500gr of liquids then you are going to have a softer bar in comparison with a 300gr liquid recipe.


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## penelopejane (Jan 1, 2016)

narnia said:


> I don't quite understand.  Are you saying that if I totally replace the amount of water called for with GM that it makes a softer bar?
> 
> I believe what I had read before, was that GM made a "spongier" bar.  Is that the same as a "softer" bar?



No that's not what Ngian and 5 other experienced people have said on this thread. GM does not effect the hardness of the soap, excess water or the oils you use will effect the hardness of your soap. 

But it's not really hardness tha is important (because olive oil 100% makes a very hard bar after cure but this isn't reflected in "hardness". 

What is important is longlife. Deeanna's explanation (on this thread) is excellent: 

>I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:


SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number


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## narnia (Jan 1, 2016)

Obsidian said:


> Milk can make your soap overheat, if it overheats too much then the soap could get a bit spongy.



Then would making GM soap HP make it get spongy, since it gets heated?  Am I safer making GM soap CP?  Would that give me a better chance for a non-spongy bar?


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## shunt2011 (Jan 1, 2016)

No, she's saying that if you add additional liquid above what is given in Soap calc you will have much softer soap due to the extra. If you replace or split the recommended amount you will be fine.  I dissolve my lye in water and add the remaining amount in milk. HTH.


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## traderbren (Jan 1, 2016)

Have you made a batch without the GM to see if it's your recipe versus the GM? And are you letting them cure properly before determining if they are too soft or spongy? It's been stated several times in this thread that the GM will not affect hardness. In one of your other threads I recall someone saying that they would not HP a GM soap since you run the risk of scorching the milk, and it will smell bad. If it was me, I would first make the recipe with just water, and then I would make a batch with the GM. I mostly CP, and see no real benefit to HP unless it's a special recipe that requires it, like liquid soap or shaving soap.


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## Obsidian (Jan 1, 2016)

I've never tried to HP a milk soap and I don't plan too, with my luck I would burn the milk. When I do my milk soaps, I use just enough water to dissolve the lye then use milk for the remainder of the liquid. I mix the milk directly into the oils before adding the cooled lye water, I try to keep the temp low.
I was preventing gel but my last GM I let gel on the counter and it turned out good. No overheating, no brown burned milk and no spongy.


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## narnia (Jan 1, 2016)

Obsidian said:


> Narnia, do you have a base recipe you like? If so, just use it and replace the water with milk.



No...I don't have a good base recipe yet.  I am still searching for one, that would give a hard but moisturizing/conditioning bar.

I read on one website that 60% hard oils + 40% soft oils gave a nice hard bar?  Is this about right?

Also, will going above a certain % SF cause the soap to be soft as well?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 1, 2016)

It depends on what you mean by hard.  A bar can be used as a hammer but be used up in no time at all in the bath (100% coconut, for example).  So do you want physical hardness, longevity or a mixture of the two?


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## narnia (Jan 1, 2016)

A mixture of the two.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 1, 2016)

Then I would look at 50% lard/palm/tallow, 15% CO, 15% Olive and 5% castor.  SF at 5%.  If you aren't up for using any of those 3 oils at 50%, you can use a lot of shea or cocoa butter.  But those are expensive, reduce lather and, in the case of cocoa, can make the bar brittle.

With soaping, we can't always have our cake and eat it.  Sometimes we can, and those times are lovely.  But sometimes being able to have x means that we have to sacrifice y.  y might be some bubbles, some money or some principles.  But then what is more important - y or x?

You want moisturising, so CO needs to be low.  Then you want a physically hard bar that lasts a while, so you need a hard oil at a large amount, that doesn't cleanse.  You COULD use shea at a lower amount and add in some softer oils, but then that doesn't give you want you are after.


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## narnia (Jan 1, 2016)

Thank you!  So, I am understanding that palm/lard/tallow are not cleansing?  

I am confused between palm oil and palm kernel oil.  Palm kernel is supposed to be cleansing, yes?

There are sooooooooooooooo many factors to consider that it is mind-boggling!

I just found this list of options by a seller.  Which type should I buy??

Palm Oil - Refined Bleached Deodorized 

Palm Oil, ORGANIC, Unrefined *RED* RSPO Sustainable 

Palm Oil, Refined Organic, RSPO Sustainable

Palm Oil, Refined, Bleached, Deodorized, Homogenized, No Stir

Whatever is "RSPO?"

What about Crisco?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 1, 2016)

That's right - Coconut, Palm Kernel and Babassau (spelling) are cleansing. 

Palm, lard and tallow are not.

One thing that helps to some degree is the following - 

On soapcalc, choose an oil that you would like to use, but can't for what ever reason.  Set it as 100% of the recipe and calculate the recipe.  Go back to the oil selection and then select a new oil - you now have the two oils compared side-by-side.  It doesn't take in to account the "unseen" elements, such as the butters actually reducing lather, or too much cocoa making a brittle bar, but they can help you to find oils which are similar to one another.


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## narnia (Jan 1, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> On soapcalc, choose an oil that you would like to use, but can't for what ever reason.  Set it as 100% of the recipe and calculate the recipe.  Go back to the oil selection and then select a new oil - you now have the two oils compared side-by-side.  It doesn't take in to account the "unseen" elements, such as the butters actually reducing lather, or too much cocoa making a brittle bar, but they can help you to find oils which are similar to one another.



Thank you!  That was very helpful!  I was able to see the properties of each oil on its own!  

What a fabulous idea!!  I have printed out each of the oils that I might use and have been studying their properties!  What a HUGE eye-opener!!!

What would happen if I upped the sf in the above recommended proportions...like to 8%?


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