# liquid soap fiasco



## mommyhen42 (Feb 8, 2015)

Can someone help me figure out what happened here? roblem:

According to soapcalc this liquid soap should have had a bubbly ratio of 56 but the actual soap was a total unsudsy flop...

22 oz h20
12.20 oz koh lye
14 oz coconut oil
27 oz castor oil
14 oz palmolein
5 oz soybean oil

Lye was combined with oils at about 95 degrees
cooking was uneventful

diluted to a nice gel consistancy
neutralized with 1/2 cup 33% borax solution
final ph 6.5

came out a beautiful golden color
I did not sequester 


any idea what went wrong?

The original idea was to add this to my liquid shampoo to enhance the bubbles.

Would sequestering this improve bubbles or is it a problem with the recipe?


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## Dorymae (Feb 8, 2015)

I'm fairly sure you added that much castor because you've heard how great it is for lather. What I don't think you realize is that castor by itself does not lather well. Castor supports lather, making it last longer and be more stable., but does not create it. Coconut oil makes lather, but compared to your castor amount it won't do very much. 

Lower your castor and increase your coconut - actually flip the amounts and you'll get a ton more lather but I would decrease the castor a bit further, say to 10oz.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 8, 2015)

I agree with switching your castor and coconut around.  Coconut will give you the lather and castor will help stabilize the lather.


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## IrishLass (Feb 8, 2015)

I third the above^^^^.

IrishLass ")


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## DeeAnna (Feb 8, 2015)

Just want to confirm -- did you use palm olein and not palm oil? If so, I have to tell you the two are slightly different critters. Palm olein has less stearic acid and more oleic acid, so it will probably create a soap with less lather than palm oil.


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## mommyhen42 (Feb 9, 2015)

*soap fiasco*

yes, I did use palmolein but I used it in soap calc which recognizes it and did not list it as palm oil.
I have used palmolein before and it seems to work well as an added soft oil.
I will make another batch using a much lower ratio of castor oil.
soapcalc can be confusing that way I guess as it shows it as increasing bubbles with or without coconut oil.

Has anyone had any experience with using cottonseed oil in liquid soaps?


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## DeeAnna (Feb 9, 2015)

You were wondering why your recipe has no bubbles, which is why I questioned your use of palm olein vs palm oil. Most liquid oils, including castor, do not make much lather, as the others have mentioned because they are not contributing much myristic, lauric, stearic, and palmitic acids. These acids are what build lather. The first 2 make fluffy bubbles that don't last too long, the last 2 make long lasting creamy lather.

Cottonseed will function similar to soybean. It can go rancid fairly quickly.


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## Dorymae (Feb 9, 2015)

mommyhen42 said:


> yes, I did use palmolein but I used it in soap calc which recognizes it and did not list it as palm oil.
> I have used palmolein before and it seems to work well as an added soft oil.
> I will make another batch using a much lower ratio of castor oil.
> soapcalc can be confusing that way I guess as it shows it as increasing bubbles with or without coconut oil.
> ...



The numbers lie often. They are really just a break down of the types of fatty acids in the combined oils,  they can not be relied upon to make good soap. You need to rely on your own knowledge for that. Take some time to learn about what oils do by themselves and when combined with others and your recipes will be much more successful. Many recipes are horrible according to the numbers but are great soap to actually use. Take a minute and look at the ever popular Castile numbers.


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## biarine (Feb 9, 2015)

I tried liquid soap the other day I love the big bubbles but it doesn't last very long it dissipate quickly. My recipe consist of 30% co, 40% tallow and 30% peanut oil.


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## Dorymae (Feb 9, 2015)

biarine said:


> I tried liquid soap the other day I love the big bubbles but it doesn't last very long it dissipate quickly. My recipe consist of 30% co, 40% tallow and 30% peanut oil.



Now in this case, definitely reduce your peanut oil to 25% and add in 5% castor.  That will help the bubbles to be stable and last longer.


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## biarine (Feb 9, 2015)

Dorymae said:


> Now in this case, definitely reduce your peanut oil to 25% and add in 5% castor.  That will help the bubbles to be stable and last longer.




Thank you Dorymae I am bit disappointed with my first liquid soap, I made it for my kitchen use  it's washing up liquid.


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## dosco (Feb 12, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Just want to confirm -- did you use palm olein and not palm oil? If so, I have to tell you the two are slightly different critters. Palm olein has less stearic acid and more oleic acid, so it will probably create a soap with less lather than palm oil.



This is interesting. In some cases would it be a smart move to add something like 5% stearic acid in a liquid soap recipe to get stable lather?

-Dave


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2015)

Stable lather as in lots of bubbles in a sink full of dishwashing water? Probably won't work, no matter how much stearic you add. Lye soaps do not make a stable lather at low concentrations, so lye soap for bubbly dishwashing water or as a bubble bath additive are not too successful. Syndets are better choices for making lather/bubbles in these kinds of situations.

Do you want a clear liquid soap? A high % of stearic may make it cloudy or opaque.

Do you want a lathery soap for washing hands and body? Honestly, stearic isn't needed. We don't need the lather to last 20 minutes like a shave soap. Just use more coconut as everyone else is advising. Be careful with the borax neutralization. Don't include too much superfat. 

Besides, stearic acid is a pain to work with. Unless you're making shave soap or cream soap, one can formulate a lathery, mild bar soap or liquid soap just fine without it.


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## dosco (Feb 14, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Besides, stearic acid is a pain to work with. Unless you're making shave soap or cream soap, one can formulate a lathery, mild bar soap or liquid soap just fine without it.



Now worries - just curious.

Thanks for clarifying.

-Dave


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## cmzaha (Feb 14, 2015)

My go to shower gel formula is very gentle and with a 4 cleansing number in soapcalc. It also lathers very nicely. This is not 100% my recipe it is one I tweaked a bit from Sally Trew's book The Complete Idiot's Guide to Making Natural Soaps. It is the soap she made for her mom when she was ill with cancer
Palm 30%
Olive Oil 28%
Castor 20%
Coconut oil  6%
Coconut oil 6%
Kokom or coco butter 6%


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## cmzaha (Feb 14, 2015)

By the way to save your batch you could run a batch of 100% coconut oil paste dilute it down and mix it with your non lathering batch. I always have coconut paste around because I love it for cleaning


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## Susie (Feb 14, 2015)

I put a dab of 100% CO paste on the brush I use to scrub the dishes with before they go into the dishwasher.  Does a dandy job of de-greasing pots and pans.


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## mommyhen42 (Feb 16, 2015)

*second try*

I just did this one and when I diluted it, it came out nice but 3 days later it is separating and there is thin liquid soap below the opaque soap.

How do you keep it from doing this?

here is the recipe
3oz castor oil
3oz coconut oil
9oz cottonseed oil
12oz olive oil
3oz walmart shortening

11oz h2o
5.8oz KOH lye

neutralized and thickened with 1Cup 33% borax


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## DeeAnna (Feb 16, 2015)

Did you run the recipe through a soap recipe calculator before you made this batch? I'm guessing you didn't, so here's an important lesson -- ALWAYS check every recipe before using it to see if it makes sense. 

Do not trust any book author, blogger, or best friend to give you a recipe that is properly formulated. Even the most thoughtful, careful, conscientious soaper can make mistakes. And many of the less careful soapers just are clueless or are passing on recipes they haven't bothered to try. 

According to my soap recipe calculator, the blend of fats you listed will need these amounts of KOH at 3% superfat (the max you should use for liquid soap) -- 

90% purity KOH: 6.4 oz
94% purity KOH: 6.1 oz
100% purity KOH: 5.7 oz

You used 5.8 oz KOH which would give you 3% superfat at a 99% KOH purity. Typical KOH ranges from 90% to 96% pure. If your KOH is typical, you did not need to neutralize this soap at all. If anything, you should have used rather more KOH to keep your superfat below 3% rather than add a bunch of borax to neutralize. The stuff floating on top of your soap is most likely fats and fatty acids, not more soap!

"How do you keep it from doing this?"

Simple -- check and doublecheck any recipe and try to see for yourself if it's safe ... if it doesn't have too much superfat ... if it's actually the right kind of soap you want to make. Next ask the folks here to critique the recipe to make sure you're on the right track. THEN make the soap.

And another critique of this recipe -- it needs a bunch more water. Set the lye solution concentration to 25% (a 3:1 water:lye ratio) in SoapCalc or use Summerbeemeadow calc which is already set to 25% for liquid soap. You'll be much happier.


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## Susie (Feb 16, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> My go to shower gel formula is very gentle and with a 4 cleansing number in soapcalc. It also lathers very nicely. This is not 100% my recipe it is one I tweaked a bit from Sally Trew's book The Complete Idiot's Guide to Making Natural Soaps. It is the soap she made for her mom when she was ill with cancer
> Palm 30%
> Olive Oil 28%
> Castor 20%
> ...



This sounds great!  I just have a few questions:

I see 96% oils, what is the other 4%?  

I also see coconut oil on there twice, is this 76 degree and fractionated?

How do you get the "gel" consistency?

What superfat do you use?


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## cmzaha (Feb 17, 2015)

Susie said:


> This sounds great! I just have a few questions:
> 
> I see 96% oils, what is the other 4%?
> 
> ...


OOPS  I should have proof read what I typed. Good reason why we tell everyone to use a soap calc. 
Here is the corrected: 
Palm 30%
Olive Oil 28%
Castor Oil 20%
Coconut Oil 6%
Sunflower Oil 5%
Kokum or Coco Butter 6%
Avocado Oil 5%
I do a superfat of 0 with no problems. It is 76 degree coconut oil I use. It does not make a hard paste but the ls is amber but clear


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## Susie (Feb 17, 2015)

Thanks!  I am looking for a good gel, so this is definitely my next soap!


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## mommyhen42 (Feb 23, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Did you run the recipe through a soap recipe calculator before you made this batch? I'm guessing you didn't, so here's an important lesson -- ALWAYS check every recipe before using it to see if it makes sense.
> 
> Do not trust any book author, blogger, or best friend to give you a recipe that is properly formulated. Even the most thoughtful, careful, conscientious soaper can make mistakes. And many of the less careful soapers just are clueless or are passing on recipes they haven't bothered to try.
> 
> ...



I did run it thru soapcalc but left it at 5% superfat without realizing it.
I added a small amount of more lye to this cooked it for another hour, then added 1 cup of lemon juice to neutralize and 1 bottle of beer.
To my suprise it gelled up nicely and looks and feels wonderful.

I tried the same thing with another batch that separated, but did not get good results... but ah well at least that one worked.


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## Susie (Feb 23, 2015)

mommyhen42 said:


> I did run it thru soapcalc but left it at 5% superfat without realizing it.
> I added a small amount of more lye to this cooked it for another hour, then added 1 cup of lemon juice to neutralize and 1 bottle of beer.
> To my suprise it gelled up nicely and looks and feels wonderful.
> 
> I tried the same thing with another batch that separated, but did not get good results... but ah well at least that one worked.



If you had too high a superfat to begin with, you should not have had to neutralize unless you added too much KOH.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 23, 2015)

"...I added a small amount of more lye to this cooked it for another hour, then added 1 cup of lemon juice to neutralize and 1 bottle of beer.
To my suprise it gelled up nicely and looks and feels wonderful. I tried the same thing with another batch that separated, but did not get good results..."

Citric acid (lemon juice) is a relatively strong acid for soapmaking, and it is extremely easy to over-acidify a lye soap with citric acid. I'm not surprised to hear this method is giving you some variable results.


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