# Distinguishing Soap Recipes on Etsy



## LaurensSoapShop

Hello!

I have a question about what I can and cannot do to describe my soap while selling (mostly on Etsy). 

I have formulated a few different recipes: one for winter/dry skin, one that is more cleansing, one that is well balanced, and one that is for sensitive skin. I am not sure how to get this point across on etsy though. I know making cosmetic claims is a big no no for soap, so is there a way to get around that? 

My initial idea was to name each one ("Recipe 1" etc), and then in my shop information describe the uses/benefits of each recipe (Recipe 1 is a high moisturizing bar, great for dry skin and winter months), but I wasn't sure if that is allowed. I was wondering if I could possible get around this by making creative names for each recipe, instead of just numerical (although for some reason I like the numerical better), something like long cold winter soap, dirty hands scrubbing soap, etc... 

I guess I'm not sure at what point it is considered a cosmetic claim versus just the function of the soap. 

Any tips or ideas would be greatly appreciated? Thank you!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

As I understand it, if you say that a soap does anything other than cleaning, you are in the costmetic area.  I think that you can say what it is good to use it ON, but not what the results could be, if that makes sense.


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## FGOriold

It is okay to make cosmetic claims on Etsy such as moisturizing or formulated for dry skin, oily skin, etc.  You just cannot make any medical claims so using any name for a medical condition (dry or oily skin is not a medical condition) like acne, eczema and such will get your products removed.  The labeling requirements for soap vs. cosmetics vs. drugs are not an etsy issue - just what is allowed to be sold there is what they will be concerned with.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

FGOriold said:


> It is okay to make cosmetic claims on Etsy such as moisturizing or formulated for dry skin, oily skin, etc. You just cannot make any medical claims so using any name for a medical condition (dry or oily skin is not a medical condition) like acne, eczema and such will get your products removed. The labeling requirements for soap vs. cosmetics vs. drugs are not an etsy issue - just what is allowed to be sold there is what they will be concerned with.


 
Pressing the big red button here to sound the warning alarm! :thumbdown:

Etsy might not have any issue with it, but if you are making claims about it being moisturising then the FDA will certainly be interested, regardless of where you are selling it.

Just because a shop-front website is okay with it, does not make it okay


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

From another post I made on the subject
---------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/ProductandIngredientSafety/ProductInformation/ucm115449.htm

4th paragraph - 

"If a cosmetic claim is made on the label of a "true" soap or cleanser, such as moisturizing or deodorizing, the product must meet all FDA requirements for a cosmetic, and the label must list all ingredients. If a drug claim is made on a cleanser or soap, such as antibacterial, antiperspirant, or anti acne, the product is a drug, and the label must list all active ingredients, as is required for all drug products."
--------------------------------------------------------

I didn't find anything in there about products on etsy being exempt............................


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## FGOriold

You're misunderstanding what I am saying.  I am not referring to the difference between soap and cosmetic - I fully understand that a product that is called anything other than "soap" or claims anything other than cleansing is considered either a cosmetic or a drug and you must follow the labeling laws for such products.  The question asked was regarding selling such products on Etsy.  Etsy could care less about your labeling and expect that their sellers follow the legal requirements for what they are selling.  They are only concerned with their TOS and the TOS state you cannot make medical claims (which are different than cosmetic claims).  Please understand that cosmetic claims and medical claims are not the same thing.  Once you make a medical claim (treats acne, cures eczema) you are selling a drug - that is where you really need to watch out for the FDA (not that you can bypass the labeling requirements for cosmetics).

Cosmetics can be sold on Etsy - drugs (anything making a medical claim) cannot.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

The question was asked about "..............selling (mostly on Etsy). " so is not just based on the Etsy ToS.

Having read the FDA regs in that link many times, I do understand the difference.  Do you?  The FDA is something to watch out for when selling a cosmetic and not just drugs.  Soap becomes a cosmetic when you say it moisturises.

I found your post to be rather misleading - it was clear that you were just talking about Etsy, but the OP was not.  As you say, Etsy assume that you meet the regs for a cosmetic claim, but that was what the OP was looking for and so clearly is not in a position to make those claims on Etsy until they sort out the FDA requirements.


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## FGOriold

Again, there are different distinctions between a cosmetic and a drug.  There are only labeling requirements for a cosmetic, but testing requirements for drugs in order to prove the drug claims being made.  When you are selling your products you need to know what you are selling (soap, cosmetic or drug) and follow the applicable laws for labeling and marketing.  Saying something is moisturizing or formulated for a particular skin type is not making a medical claim and one must follow the laws for labeling cosmetics.  This goes for promotion too.  Even if you label does not state a cosmetic or drug claims, you cannot market it as such if the label does not correspond to the class of product.  I think you are getting caught up between labeling laws and selling products.  You package and market your products following the FDA laws.  When you go to sell, then you ALSO have to take into consideration the terms of the venue (such as Etsy's term that products making MEDICAL claims cannot be sold there).

I do not understand why you are arguing with me.  We seem to be on the same page with the fact that there are different labeling and marketing requirements for products based on whether they are soaps, cosmetics or drugs so what is the issue?  How the question was phrased had to do how to describe the soap - the labeling laws are the same no matter what.  If you describe you soap as a cosmetic, then follow the laws for cosmetics.  I expanded my answer regarding Etsy as they have the specific term regarding not selling products making medical claims and the question specifically mentioned selling on Etsy as an example (the title of the thread is " Distinguishing Soap Recipes on Etsy").  Other venues may not have the same restriction so it is good to be aware of it.


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## Lindy

Lauren in answer to your question.  If you are prepared to label your soap as a cosmetic then you can use terms like moisturizing, conditioning, if you don't want to do the proper ingredient listing then you can't make any claims other than it will clean your skin.


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## pamielynn

If you want to steer clear of cosmetic labeling, I think you could use subjective terms such as "feels" or "appears". But I could be wrong. It happens frequently


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## LaurensSoapShop

Lindy said:


> Lauren in answer to your question.  If you are prepared to label your soap as a cosmetic then you can use terms like moisturizing, conditioning, if you don't want to do the proper ingredient listing then you can't make any claims other than it will clean your skin.




Thank you! If I wanted to label it as a cosmetic I would just have to use the proper INCI for each ingredient on my label? Or is there more to it and that is just one part? I haven't really looked much into it, but if it's nothing too complicated it might be worth it.


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## lpstephy85

LaurensSoapShop said:


> Thank you! If I wanted to label it as a cosmetic I would just have to use the proper INCI for each ingredient on my label? Or is there more to it and that is just one part? I haven't really looked much into it, but if it's nothing too complicated it might be worth it.




From what I understand if you want to label it as to say it does this and that besides clean, then you will have to get testing done with the FDA. I don't think it is worth it though to go through that or press the issue of making claims. If you have a quality product then it will speak for itself. 

I have a girl I sold my lotion sticks to and she said they have been wonderful to her this winter on her dry elbows. Great, but that won't make me change my description on my products on Etsy that they will do this.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

FGOriold, I think you're also misunderstanding me - and I think we leave it there as I see your comments as potentially misleading in the information and you don't.  

OP - the link in post # 5 to the FDA website will let you know what you need to do if you want to make a cosmetic claim regarding with a soap.


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## Lindy

No you don' have to get approval from the FDA - Lauren you just have to label with the INCI names.  It really is that simple.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Lindy said:


> No you don' have to get approval from the FDA - Lauren you just have to label with the INCI names.  It really is that simple.



At the risk of putting many noses out of joint today, please please PLEASE do read this

http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/CosmeticLabelingLabelClaims/CosmeticLabelingManual/ucm126444.htm

If you are selling something that is classed as a cosmetic, there is a wee bit more than just INCI names.  There is no requirement for registration and testing, as Lindy said, although the point about testing being required when using colours was left out.  But as you can see in the link, what the FDA requires on the label is not as simple as INCI.

There is, as an example, this little gem - 
-------------------------------
Cosmetics With Unsubstantiated Safety
Warning--The safety of this product has not been determined.

21 CFR 740.10

A cosmetic is considered misbranded if its safety has not adequately been substantiated, and it does not bear the following conspicuous statement on the PDP:

Warning - The safety of this product has not been determined.

---------------------------

So, with just INCI ingredients and a cosmetic claim but no warning, a product is not correctly labeled in the eyes of the FDA.

The regulations don't seem to be too arduous, which is a very good thing.  But that does not lower their importance.


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## AnnaMarie

Efficacious Gentleman, I am certainly not trying to pick a fight here as I very much respect your opinions as a fellow soap maker, but I admit that you have me confused as well. Having read the FDA requirements carefully through a couple of times it is clear that soap can be sold as a cosmetic as long as you have proper labeling (this is what I fall under because I want to make claims of "moisturizing"). It's only when you make medical claims that you need to really start worrying, and most of us soap makers don't go there because we can't afford to. Soap makers in the U.S. have a choice whether to go strictly as "soap" or as a "cosmetic" with little consequence other than labeling and who's monitoring you. I operate as a soap maker under the FDA's guidelines, and I follow their guidelines even putting a not safety tested warning statement on my soap. As FGOriold pointed out, you both seem to be arguing the same point. I'm not clearly distinguishing your point. Again, not trying to pick a fight  
Cheers!
Anna Marie


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

We're on the same page, AnnaMarie - but as you say, you are in line with the FDA as you do have more than just INCI listings, you have the warning and so on.

With with the drugs/cosmetics issue, there were posts were suggesting that as it was okay with Etsy to make the claims, it was okay.  It left out the fact that there is proper labeling required, which I felt was misleading.  As well as the suggestion that it is not overly important to worry about the FDA when making cosmetic claims, which is also misleading.  Sure, the requirements are less with a cosmetic claim than a drug claim, but you still have to follow them


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## AnnaMarie

So if I understand you correctly, your point was the lack of emphasis on proper labeling as a cosmetic?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Exactly - it was made clear that it's not an etsy issue, but then didn't make it clear that it still has to be done.


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## AnnaMarie

Gotcha!


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## FGOriold

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> We're on the same page, AnnaMarie - but as you say, you are in line with the FDA as you do have more than just INCI listings, you have the warning and so on.
> 
> With with the drugs/cosmetics issue, there were posts were suggesting that as it was okay with Etsy to make the claims, it was okay.  It left out the fact that there is proper labeling required, which I felt was misleading.  As well as the suggestion that it is not overly important to worry about the FDA when making cosmetic claims, which is also misleading.  Sure, the requirements are less with a cosmetic claim than a drug claim, but you still have to follow them



You obviously read far too much or too little into my initial post and filled in with your own words or thoughts on the issue - not really sure why you are now making and posting assumptions of my intent.  Apparently you assumed because I said Etsy will allow cosmetic claims to be made, that I was also saying that was all that mattered and to disregard the FDA.  Not so.

Nowhere did I say that a seller should not follow the FDA guidelines or make it sound like they can be overlooked for cosmetic claims - my feelings are just the opposite.  But it is also up to the seller to be informed as to what those are.  So, when someone asks about how they can describe their product for selling and on a specific selling venue, it is really a 3 part question and answer.  

1.  How can one describe their product and how does that then classify the product.
2.  What then are the FDA labeling laws for said product
3.  Will the venue have restrictions on said product


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

FGOriold said:


> You obviously read far too much or too little into my initial post and filled in with your own words or thoughts on the issue - not really sure why you are now making and posting assumptions of my intent.  Apparently you assumed because I said Etsy will allow cosmetic claims to be made, that I was also saying that was all that mattered and to disregard the FDA.  Not so.
> 
> Nowhere did I say that a seller should not follow the FDA guidelines or make it sound like they can be overlooked for cosmetic claims - my feelings are just the opposite.  But it is also up to the seller to be informed as to what those are.  So, when someone asks about how they can describe their product for selling and on a specific selling venue, it is really a 3 part question and answer.
> 
> 1.  How can one describe their product and how does that then classify the product.
> 2.  What then are the FDA labeling laws for said product
> 3.  Will the venue have restrictions on said product



I am sorry, but I did say "suggested", and not "it said........." because it was how I took it rather than what you meant.  Obviously, unless something in written form is 100% unambiguous it will always have an element of suggestion in there.

And yes, you didn't say that the FDA regs need to be followed, but you also didn't say that they did!  When someone new is asking about labeling like that, and it is clear in their post that it is a wider issue than just the Etsy ToS (and is was very clear in the original post, regardless of the thread title, that it was a general question about labeling, not just Etsy from the whole "................I have a question about what I can and cannot do to describe my soap while selling (mostly on Etsy)......................" then it is misleading to stop with out giving information on the wider issues.  

I stand by that statement, very much so.  

To say it is up to the seller to be informed, but then to not inform them, is then making the whole idea of answering the question in to a nonsense.


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## Tienne

"I know making cosmetic claims is a big no no for soap, so is there a way to get around that?"

I don't sell, so FDA and whatnot isn't really anything I bother reading too much about but... what if you had a soap with for example calendula in it and in the description wrote something like "Calendula is known for its soothing properties blah blah blah." You wouldn't then actually be making any claim about the soap itself, but about the calendula. I have seen some soaps for sale that talk about the properties of the different ingredients and not of the soap itself, such as what vitamins the ingredient contains or the historical use of said ingredients and so on. Maybe you could get your point across about the soap that way and not be in breach of any rules? As stated, I don't know anything about the FDA etc, but that wouldn't that be a doable and legal workaround?


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## AnnaMarie

Tienne, I see a lot of soap makers using that tactic. I don't go there too much myself, but it definitely is a common practice.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I must admit, thinking of ways to word it that might get the point over with out actually falling foul of the law is jolly hard.  I've seen some, like CA (Bath House Basics) that put some of the nicer ingredients in the title which gives that impression (shea butter sounds like it's good) or words like luxurious, which avoids the issue completely.


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## FGOriold

Tienne said:


> "I know making cosmetic claims is a big no no for soap, so is there a way to get around that?"
> 
> I don't sell, so FDA and whatnot isn't really anything I bother reading too much about but... what if you had a soap with for example calendula in it and in the description wrote something like "Calendula is known for its soothing properties blah blah blah." You wouldn't then actually be making any claim about the soap itself, but about the calendula. I have seen some soaps for sale that talk about the properties of the different ingredients and not of the soap itself, such as what vitamins the ingredient contains or the historical use of said ingredients and so on. Maybe you could get your point across about the soap that way and not be in breach of any rules? As stated, I don't know anything about the FDA etc, but that wouldn't that be a doable and legal workaround?



That tactic would fall under intended use for soap.  If your marketing is touting that an ingredient will do more than cleanse, you may have crossed over into cosmetic.

From the FDA:

"To meet the definition of soap in FDA’s regulations, a product has to meet three conditions: 

What it’s made of: To be regulated as “soap,” the product must be composed mainly of the “alkali salts of fatty acids,” that is, the material you get when you combine fats or oils with an alkali, such as lye.

What ingredients cause its cleaning action: To be regulated as “soap,” those “alkali salts of fatty acids” must be the only material that results in the product’s cleaning action. If the product contains synthetic detergents, it’s a cosmetic, not a soap. You still can use the word “soap” on the label. 

*How it's intended to be used*:  To be regulated as soap, it must be labeled and *marketed *only for use as soap. If it is intended for purposes such as moisturizing the skin, making the user smell nice, or deodorizing the user’s body, it’s a cosmetic. Or, if the product is intended to treat or prevent disease, such as by killing germs, or treating skin conditions, such as acne or eczema, it’s a drug. You still can use the word “soap” on the label."


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## Lindy

In Canada you have to register your recipes and have very stringent labeling requirements.  I am sorry I gave poor information based on assumptions regarding the US based on the lack of registration.  In Canada we are required to only put warnings on for avoidable hazards such as hair dye.  In the workshops that I teach I recommend that warnings such as "For external use only" " Not recommended for women who are pregnant" for certain essential oils as well as "Discontinue use should a rash or irritation occur".  We are not required to do that though.  We are required to use INCI and list essential oils by the botanical names rather than parfum.  We also have to label in French and English.   Once you understand the requirements it is not that difficult.


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## AnnaMarie

Thank you FGOriold. That is exactly how I understand the FDA regulations.


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## hmlove1218

So all the people who are trying to get around the cosmetic labeling requirements by doing that are actually in the wrong?  Like if there's a lavender soap that they just describe as soap but then explain how lavender is believed to help produce a deeper sleep.  Am I understanding this right or has my brain short circuited?


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## LaurensSoapShop

Lindy said:


> In Canada you have to register your recipes and have very stringent labeling requirements.  I am sorry I gave poor information based on assumptions regarding the US based on the lack of registration.  In Canada we are required to only put warnings on for avoidable hazards such as hair dye.  In the workshops that I teach I recommend that warnings such as "For external use only" " Not recommended for women who are pregnant" for certain essential oils as well as "Discontinue use should a rash or irritation occur".  We are not required to do that though.  We are required to use INCI and list essential oils by the botanical names rather than parfum.  We also have to label in French and English.   Once you understand the requirements it is not that difficult.




So if I sold soap to someone in Canada I would have to have proper labeling? Or is that only if you're selling in Canada?


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## LaurensSoapShop

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> At the risk of putting many noses out of joint today, please please PLEASE do read this
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/CosmeticLabelingLabelClaims/CosmeticLabelingManual/ucm126444.htm
> 
> 
> 
> If you are selling something that is classed as a cosmetic, there is a wee bit more than just INCI names.  There is no requirement for registration and testing, as Lindy said, although the point about testing being required when using colours was left out.  But as you can see in the link, what the FDA requires on the label is not as simple as INCI.
> 
> 
> 
> There is, as an example, this little gem -
> 
> -------------------------------
> 
> Cosmetics With Unsubstantiated Safety
> 
> Warning--The safety of this product has not been determined.
> 
> 
> 
> 21 CFR 740.10
> 
> 
> 
> A cosmetic is considered misbranded if its safety has not adequately been substantiated, and it does not bear the following conspicuous statement on the PDP:
> 
> 
> 
> Warning - The safety of this product has not been determined.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> So, with just INCI ingredients and a cosmetic claim but no warning, a product is not correctly labeled in the eyes of the FDA.
> 
> 
> 
> The regulations don't seem to be too arduous, which is a very good thing.  But that does not lower their importance.




Thank you for the info. So as long as I use natural colorants (which are FDA approved), INCI labeling and display a warning on my label I can sell my soap as a cosmetic, no need for testing etc?


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## judymoody

Yes, I think so.

Soap doesn't moisturize by the way.  Condition, yes, moisturize no.

If it were me, I'd sidestep the issue entirely by using words like "gentle" or "luxurious."


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## Lindy

LaurensSoapShop said:


> So if I sold soap to someone in Canada I would have to have proper labeling? Or is that only if you're selling in Canada?


 
If you are selling into Canada on a wholesale level you would have to register your recipes with Health Canada and follow Canadian guidelines.  If you are only selling retail into Canada you don't have to worry about it unless you are targeting the Canadian market.  But if people just happen to see your product and want it, again, you're fine with US standards.



hmlove1218 said:


> So all the people who are trying to get around the cosmetic labeling requirements by doing that are actually in the wrong? Like if there's a lavender soap that they just describe as soap but then explain how lavender is believed to help produce a deeper sleep. Am I understanding this right or has my brain short circuited?


 
That's right.  You cannot discuss what an additive does on a medicinal or therapeutic level.


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## new12soap

INCI name of ingredients is not required for cosmetics labels in the US. Common name is also acceptable.

eta: Common name is _required_, INCI _can_ be included as a _secondary_ option.


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## LaurensSoapShop

Feel like I need to be a lawyer to understand and navigate the FDA website! They couldn't make a check list or something simple?


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## hmlove1218

LaurensSoapShop said:


> Feel like I need to be a lawyer to understand and navigate the FDA website! They couldn't make a check list or something simple?



Ha I feel the same way! I like that Soap Queen's website breaks things down where I can understand it, bit at the same time I'm worried about what if they interpret it and I'm just trusting them. Then I'm at fault because I got my information from a second source and not the law itself..


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## FGOriold

This person is the expert on labeling in the USA. 

http://mariegale.com/

I have her book and have reviewed info on her website too.


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## SoapAddict415

I wonder if you could use a disclaimer on the lable like "these statements have not be approved by the FDA"?


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## soapballs

You can say that it include such and such and then say that such and such has been known to be moisturizing.  In that do not say that your soap is moisturizing.  But with saying such and such that is included in your bar has known moisturizing effects the normal consumer with put two and two together and understand that your bar of soap is moisturizing without having to make that claim and getting into the FDA requirements and such. You could do this also with EO that are known for certain medical benefits - just never make the claim your soap is the one giving the medical benefits.


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## FGOriold

soapballs said:


> You can say that it include such and such and then say that such and such has been known to be moisturizing.  In that do not say that your soap is moisturizing.  But with saying such and such that is included in your bar has known moisturizing effects the normal consumer with put two and two together and understand that your bar of soap is moisturizing without having to make that claim and getting into the FDA requirements and such. You could do this also with EO that are known for certain medical benefits - just never make the claim your soap is the one giving the medical benefits.



Again, anytime you allude to an intended purpose of a product or an ingredient in the product via marketing, statements in a product description even testimonials as anything other than cleansing, you are no longer selling just soap but either a cosmetic or drug depending on the claim being made.


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## FGOriold

These would be a good reads for those in the United States:

http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Resour...ufacturersPackagersDistributors/ucm388736.htm
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/CosmeticLabelingLabelClaims/CosmeticLabelingManual/ucm126444.htm


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## Cococamila

This is from an avon book. Is this an example of what is being discussed here?


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## Lindy

Soothing, emollient & nourishing are all cosmetic terms.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

They are also good for bedazzling your juicy man.  Which is what every girl wants to do...................

But also do check to see if these are actually listed as cosmetics anyway - as they look to be actually cosmetic products rather than soaps


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## Cococamila

I guess what I was asking or trying to point out with an example was that you cannot label your true soaps like shown here. Kind of not making any statements of qualities it has but rather pointing out ingredients and their "known" benefits. 

So for what I understand avon did not have these tested to prove any qualities so they added that little circle of ingredients and their known qualities.  Am I correct? 

I actually don't have a man I wish to bedazzle but rather a woman 
Lol


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## FGOriold

@coccamilia - no you cannot label your soaps with the text in those circles and still have them classified as "soap" per the FDA, nor can you market them that way even if that information does not appear on the label and have them classified as "soap".  Cosmetics are not required to be tested either - that is where warning labels over misbranding come into play.


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## Cococamila

FGOriold said:


> @coccamilia - no you cannot label your soaps with the text in those circles and still have them classified as "soap" per the FDA, nor can you market them that way even if that information does not appear on the label and have them classified as "soap".  Cosmetics are not required to be tested either - that is where warning labels over misbranding come into play.




Gotcha! Ty for clarifying. I don't make soap or cosmetics yet just a few samples here and there but I'm interested in learning all the ins and outs. Let me tell you I'm so new at this research that it seems like I'm reading a foreign language lol


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## lanafana

If you are selling soaps on a website. Can you have a page separate from the soap or sales page that talks about essential oils and their properties (for example), or talks about the health benefits of goat milk on your skin. Would this still be considered implying your soap has these properties. Even if it's just info on your website in a completely different location (ie. not in or near the description of your soap)??


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## Lindy

If it is a page discussing aromatherapy and how essential oils are used in that practice you should be safe but it is a still a slippery slope....


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