# Most common antioxidant used



## danielle22033 (Jun 9, 2013)

I was just wondering what is the most common/standard antioxidants that everyone uses in CP or HP and when do you add it to the process? Also, do you have to calculate it in with making your recipes because of the lye?  

Thanks


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## Ruthie (Jun 10, 2013)

I'm not sure why you are wanting an antioxidant in your soap.  Is this for the benefit of the soap, or for the skin of the user?


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## danielle22033 (Jun 10, 2013)

I want an antioxidant in my soap to preserve it longer.


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## lsg (Jun 10, 2013)

I use a few drops of Vit E in every batch.  I have not had a problem with DOS since I started using Vit E.


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## Donna (Jun 10, 2013)

Rosemary Oleoresin works for me.  You can read about it on The Soap Making Resource.


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## Dr.J (Jun 24, 2013)

Here is an interesting study that discusses AOs in handcrafted soaps.


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## Bicycle808 (Jun 24, 2013)

I use coffee or tea instead of plain ol' h2o in most of my recipes.


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## three_little_fishes (Jun 24, 2013)

lsg said:


> I use a few drops of Vit E in every batch.  I have not had a problem with DOS since I started using Vit E.




LSG, I've been meaning to try this. I have a ton of vit E capsules. Could I just prick one of those suckers open and put a few drops in?


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## danielle22033 (Jun 24, 2013)

Bicycle808 said:


> I use coffee or tea instead of plain ol' h2o in most of my recipes.



Does using the coffee or tea add antioxidants?


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## Bicycle808 (Jun 24, 2013)

danielle22033 said:


> Does using the coffee or tea add antioxidants?



I believe that it does, and there's a bunch of literature out there that suggests that there are antioxidants in coffee/tea, but I have no proof/evidence that it lends antioxidants to soap.  Still, it's cheap, it works for me, and ppl seem to like the cafe/soap concept.

I never get discernible DOS on my coffee/tea soaps, for whatever that's worth.


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## dagmar88 (Jun 25, 2013)

I'd add it to short shelf life oils the first time you open them instead of the soap.


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## roseb (Jun 25, 2013)

Donna said:


> Rosemary Oleoresin works for me.  You can read about it on The Soap Making Resource.



Donna, I read this before coffee and it sounded like you were introducing an employee of yours.  LOL!


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## roseb (Jun 25, 2013)

Dr.J said:


> Here is an interesting study that discusses AOs in handcrafted soaps.



Thanks, Dr. J!  Great article.  Still can't bring myself to use artificial ingredients though.


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## Dr.J (Jun 25, 2013)

roseb said:


> ..Still can't bring myself to use artificial ingredients though.


 
I hear you, roseb.  At least ROE performed pretty well in the article (as Donna also discussed above), and that is a natural option.

BHT is a controversial synthetic AO.  Many warn about its potential ill effects on our health, but its allowed by the FDA in many of the foods we eat (like cereals).  Nothing like conflicting info to help us make educated decisions, right? :-?


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## lilmstrade (Jun 25, 2013)

Hello!
Im a new member on this forum.
Nice to meet everyone!

I have question, I was wondering if anyone has tried spraying ROE onto the soaps after its been made to preserve/prevent from getting rancid or getting dos?
Say if you forget to add it before or during the soap making process.
Just wondering if that has worked for anyone who has tried that.

Thank you in advance for your replies!


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## Donna (Jun 26, 2013)

RoseB,

Funny girl! I must say, a little of Rosemary O. goes a long way.


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## julieanne (Jun 26, 2013)

Another ingredient that may be useful as a rancidity preventative would be natural mixed tocopherols- extracted from soybeans so for those with bean allegeries even the 1% recommended usage rate could be too much. There are enhanced forms of mixed d-aplha tocopherols under licensed names such as Covi-Ox (Lotion Crafters) that were "improved" to be better at preventing rancidity. You may be able to buy vitamin e straight off the food store shelf and empty those capsules out for what you need but make sure to purchase only "natural MIXED tocopherols" or d-at, not d-ATA, not tocopherol acetate, not acetate Vitamin E which will not work.

ROE works well as a rancidity preventative, too, but the mixed tocopherols natural Vit E may work LONGER. Covering the soap in ROE may work but I'd think only for the surface it covers & it may add a rosemary scent which may or may not be desired. Jojoba may be a better covering agent since it's wax, not an unsaturated fat- & won't oxidize and no smells. I sometimes worry the oil the rosemary is dissolved into will oxidize. If using jojoba, no worries on that regard.

Julie


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## Skatergirl46 (Jun 26, 2013)

Haha RoseB!   I have done the same kind of thing in a pre-coffee state.


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## julieanne (Jun 27, 2013)

To answer a question earlier- If you use an anti-oxidant preservative in your soaps it may help prevent soap from getting rancid. If you run through your soaping oils, butters/fats quickly, they are fresh when used in formulations and the product gets sold or used within a 6 month period, you may be fine without a rancidity preservative. 

To preserve fats that aren't used quickly, using 0.5% of natural mixed tocopherols will preserve the quality of your oils, keep it smelling "new," not old and oily or fishy-like.

Here is a description of what it is and how to use Covi-Ox Mixed Tocopherols from Lotion Crafters. 

*Covi-Ox T-50 Mixed Tocopherols​INCI: Tocopherol​DESCRIPTION​Covi-Ox T-50​*​[FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]is a transparent, brownish-red, viscous oil with a characteristic odor. It is a 50% active blend of natural mixed tocopherols isolated from vegetables oils and concentrated to contain naturally occurring 
d-alpha, d-beta, d-gamma and d-delta tocopherols in a soybean oil base. Covi-Ox guards against oxidation and extends your product’s shelf life naturally. ​
[/FONT][/FONT]*BENEFITS​*•​[FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]Retards rancidity in formulations 

• Active substance in skin care and hair after-treatment preparations 

• Used as early as possible, extends the shelf life of natural oils 

• Heat tolerant, allowing for early addition in the formulating process 

• May be labeled as "natural vitamin E" in products ​
[/FONT][/FONT]*APPLICATIONS​*[FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]Raw Ingredients: Vegetable and cosmetic oils, essential oils 
Skin Care: Lotions and creams 
Cosmetics: Lip Balms and sticks​[/FONT][/FONT]*TYPICAL USAGE RATES​Raw Ingredients​*​[FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]Normal use levels: 0.04 to 0.5% added as soon as possible ​
[/FONT][/FONT]*Formulations​*​[FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]Normal use levels: 0.5 – 1.5% ​
[/FONT][/FONT]*FORMULATING WITH COVI-OX T-50​Covi-Ox T-50​*​[FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]is heat stable and can be added to the oil phase of formulations prior to heating them. Can be added to vegetable and cosmetic oils at room temperature with mixing. ​
[/FONT][/FONT]*USABLE LIFE AND STORAGE​*[FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]Unstable to acid, light, alkali, and oxidizing agents. When stored at ambient temperatures in unopened container, shelf-life is 36 months. Protect from light and air in tightly closed containers. Store at temperatures 60°- 85°F. Do not refrigerate. 
[/FONT][/FONT]


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## julieanne (Jun 27, 2013)

I just read Dr. J's attached article authored by Kevin Dunn, "The Dreaded Orage Spot." Very good information, thanks for the post. In Kevin's series of experiments he uses "Vit E" and proved it did nothing to prevent oxidation. He may have used artificial Vit E: d-alpha tocopherol acetate, or dl-apha tocopherol acetate, instead of natural mixed tocopherol Vit E, both are termed "Vit E" as a generality. The year the article was written, 2005, it was thought if artificial Vit E did this, then so would natural. That is simply not the case.

My day job, as very minor aspect, studies the oxidation of unsaturated fats and how to keep oils fresh. We work hard to prevent, as do our unsaturated fat suppliers, rancidity as indicated by peroxides & anisidine, which together reach high total oxidation values. We experiment and test with primarily natural ingredients. We have proven mixed tocopherols work as have our suppliers through independent studies of their own. In fact, we no longer have to request mixed tocopherols or ROE be added to oils before delivery. The RM supplier adds the ingredient at a level of about 0.5%.

Regarding my understanding of soap and rancidity, it would be very probable that Vit E added to oils to extend shelf life to highly unsaturated fats would be beneficial for a few reasons: extends shelf life, reduces the incidence of DOS in soaps when using those protected oils. The only batch I've made that developed DOS was a high olive oil batch with no natural preservative pre-added. A logical argument could be that soaps made with high levels of unsaturated fats hold great potential to develop DOS. Kevin mentions that coconut oil soaps rarely produce DOS while olive oil soaps ususally do, likely due to the fact that coconut oil holds much less oxidation potential than olive based on molecular structure.

How do you know what oils are highly unsaturated? Check the manufacturer shelf life recommendations for opened products, not unopened. In general, those with less than 6 month expirys after opening need a pinch of nat mixed tocopherols or ROE. Another way is to do an internet search to see how the fat or oil is described. Here is a very short list of known highly unsaturated fats: olive, flax seed, borage oil, fish oil, krill oil.  

I hope this helps. I'm trying to keep the posts short & in layman's terms.

Julie


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## kazmi (Jun 27, 2013)

Using ROE or mixed tocopherols will protect the oils while in storage but does it do anything for preserving those oils once you've made soap with them? 

USABLE LIFE AND *STORAGE*​[FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman][FONT=AJDBKM+TimesNewRoman,Times New Roman]Unstable to acid, light, *alkali*, and oxidizing agents[/FONT][/FONT]

I've been considering that I should try to avoid oxidation and extend the shelf life of my soap but still on the fence of the best method for doing this. So I'm really interested in this thread.


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## dagmar88 (Jun 28, 2013)

The shelf life is next to endless with a good recipe and fresh oils.
It's the more delicate oils that _could_ use an anti oxidant to stay fresh until saponification.
I just refrigerate those.


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## julieanne (Jun 28, 2013)

Hi Kazmi,

Honestly, I'm not sure if adding ROE or nat mixed tocopherols to the fat part of CP soaps will prevent DOS. Alkalinity could erode is potential as an antioxidant, makes chemical sense to me in fact. 

Putting all the pieces together, this would seem a logical way to ensure little to no DOS:

Prevent rancidity in short shelf-life oils (those that are highly unsaturated & vendor says use within 6 months of opening) by adding nat mixed tocopherols to the oil after its first use at a level of 0.5% to 1% by volume. This will ensure when used in soaps the fats/oils have no peroxides/anisidine (rancidity) in them at the time of use.

When formulating with highly unsaturated oils, blend with at least 10% coconut or another long shelf life fat/oil or butter as a preventative measure. Synergisticly, the stable fats may protect those less stable. In Kevin's article, this seems to be a true conclusion.

When added to highly unsat fats/oils,  nat mixed tocopherols are "sacrificed" as the thing oxidized in place of the thing oxidized highly unsat fats/ oils. As such, they have a limited lifetime in which they are able to prevent rancidity, and alone in an opened bottle, they, too, have an expiry usage date before they are oxidized & offer no protection at all. Hence, it's still a good idea to use up highly unsaturated fats/oils quickly- don't buy in bulk quantities if you think they'll sit around for over 2 years with E/ROE added, less than a year without E or ROE added. Once the Vit E ( when using this term I specifically mean ONLY the nat mixed tocopherols version of E) is used up, the fats/oils begin to oxidize. I'm not sure when this event happens in time. Refrigeration could help, flushing with nitrogen and capping quickly is a proven method but few us have a nitrogren tank handy for this type of preventative. 

Keeping headspace in the bottle at a minimum also works in conjunction with a tightly sealed cap. Some transfer oils that quickly oxidize to smaller bottles so the each successive bottle has little or no headspace.

Julie


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## daisy8 (Jun 28, 2013)

Very interesting thread.  Has anyone had OS when using a fair amount of Grapeseed Oil?


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## dagmar88 (Jun 28, 2013)

daisy8 said:


> Very interesting thread.  Has anyone had OS when using a fair amount of Grapeseed Oil?




Grapeseed oil is very prone to DOS. I avoid it altogether in soap.


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## daisy8 (Jun 28, 2013)

That's a bit of useful information, dagmar88, thank you.  Does DOS happen no matter how much g/s oil is used?


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## Bicycle808 (Jun 29, 2013)

Here's a thread high-jackin' question:  How much does super-fattin' contribute to DOS?


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## juliet (Jun 30, 2013)

Bicycle808 said:


> Here's a thread high-jackin' question:  How much does super-fattin' contribute to DOS?



According to Kevin Dunn, none at all, more or less super-fat has no impact on DOS.


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## Bicycle808 (Jun 30, 2013)

juliet said:


> According to Kevin Dunn, none at all, more or less super-fat has no impact on DOS.



If that's the case, it calls into question some of the theories that come up when folks are discussing label strategies...


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## PAT_D_O (Jul 1, 2013)

*Anyone tried EDTA?*

¿Has anyone tried EDTA in their soap?

Recently, in a lotion making class I took we were told to use demineralized water or, if we were using distilled water instead, that we should use EDTA to reduce the mineral content in the water and extend the life of the lotion. This is because EDTA acts a chelating agent.

Then, I see Prof. Dunns link and he says that EDTA can also be used to prevent rancidity in soapmaking oils and I think it would be good to improve the performance on your soap when using hard water as well, since minerals in hard water interfere with the cleaning action and prevents suds. I also read (somewhere) that EDTA loves alkaline environments, which sounds like soap to me. 

I have never used EDTA in my soaps but (label appeal apart) I think this addition could be very good: prevent rancidity and good for hard water areas…. What do you think?
 Pat


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## angelwings2ltd (Jul 1, 2013)

*Vitamin E as an Antioxident*



three_little_fishes said:


> LSG, I've been meaning to try this. I have a ton of vit E capsules. Could I just prick one of those suckers open and put a few drops in?



Thats what I do. . .  I use a small pair of scissors to cut the end, and usually use 4 or 5 capsules in each batch.

I also add the vit. E either with the rest of the oils, or mix it in well just at trace, so its all incorporated into the mix.

I had someone give me a few jars that were past the *Use-by* date. . . They were new & unopened jars, so I figured it wouldnt hurt, using in the soap!

Angel


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## kazmi (Jul 1, 2013)

PAT_D_O said:


> ¿Has anyone tried EDTA in their soap?
> 
> Recently, in a lotion making class I took we were told to use demineralized water or, if we were using distilled water instead, that we should use EDTA to reduce the mineral content in the water and extend the life of the lotion. This is because EDTA acts a chelating agent.
> 
> ...


 
This may be a good idea.  I use it in some of my lotions (high ph or with aloe or some extracts) so it may not be a bad idea in soap.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 2, 2013)

"...use demineralized water or,if we were using distilled water instead, that we should use EDTA to reduce the mineral content in the water..."

Uh, well, it's interesting that your instructor would tell you this, because distilled water IS demineralized water. Just look at what is left behind when you boil a pan of water dry -- the crusty residues are the minerals that were left behind when the water boiled away. This is a crude example of water distillation.

In fact, water that is purified by distillation is arguably better than water run through a demineralizing process because distillation removes organic impurities and microbial organisms from the water that the demineralization process may not.


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## julieanne (Jul 3, 2013)

Camden-Grey also sells nat mixed tocopherols. Here is their blurb regarding the use of T-50 in soaps. I like Pat_D_O's suggestion to use EDTA. A chemistry prof once explained, EDTA is the match maker in chemistry- introduces one molecule to the other, they then have a chemical reaction and form less reactive substances (typically). If memory serves, EDTA is safe, and has a long history of use with no adverse effects. It gets pooh-poohed sometimes though since industry is always trying to keep interests going with "new and improved" products. With the "new & improved" body formulation ingredients you don't get that great usage history that EDTA has already established. 

T-50 product description, from Camden-Grey's website:

Sold by weight. T-50 all natural vitamin E. With daily concerns over the safety of synthetic ingredients, why risk the success of your products by using synthetic antioxidants? There are two classes of natural Vitamin E: tocopherols and tocotrienols. We offer you all natural low d-alpha mixed tocopherols or T-50. 


Tocopherols: A term used to describe the collection of all the tocopherols in Vitamin E that occur naturally in food. There are 4 types of tocopherols: d-alpha, d-beta, d-gamma and d-delta. Low d-alpha mixed tocopherols are often used to slow the onset of rancidity in fats and oils. Natural oxidants are isolated from vegetable oils and concentrated to contain a mixture of d-alpha (commonly known as Vitamin E), d-beta, d-gamma and d-delta tocopherols. 

T-50 is all natural, low d-alpha mixed tocopherols, has 500 mg total tocopherols, and is a brownish-red, clear, viscous oil (color may differ slightly from batch to batch). When you compare prices between the gel caps commonly sold in drugstores and these Tocopherols, pound per pound Tocopherols are a lot less expensive to use, not to mention that you will be using all natural Vitamin E and not synthetic. 

At proper usage levels T-50 does not contribute odor, taste or color to the end product. Tocopherols are natures perfect antioxidant. The optimal level of tocopherols in finished products will range from 0.01% to 0.1% of the fat or oil content. Because antioxidants can only prevent oxidation, not reverse it, it is important to add the antioxidant as early in the process as possible. 

Tocopherols also slow the onset of rancidity in fats & oils in your soaps & lotions. If you superfat your soaps, then Vitamin E is a must so that your soaps will not develop rancidity in a few months. Tocopherols also help to protect the most vulnerable citrus essential oils. 
Recommended usage: 4 drops per one pound of oils in a recipe. T-50 is insoluble in water. Constituents of our T-50 mixture: 50/50 natural mixed tocopherols & partially hydrogenated vegetable oil, mainly soybean oil. May be labeled as natural vitamin E in finished products. Do not refrigerate, store in cool place. Shelf life: 36 months when stored in an unopened container. This product is food grade and is GRAS. INCI:


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