# Purchased a fragrance for soap - it came unlabeled. Legal?



## MySoapyHeart (Feb 9, 2016)

So I purchased a fragrance that is supposedly doubling as fragrance to be used in soap, but also candles. The company has a 100% positive feedback, are in the UK and have a wide variety of fragrances. 

But upon receiving my purchase today, it had no label on the bottle, or no info about the fragrance whatsoever in the package. I got the invoice and a thank you note for ordering from them.

When I checked them out before bying from them, the images of their bottles were showing square bottles, with labels of scent, ammount and their website.
When I got my bottle it was round, had no label, name or ammount on it.

Is this legal? I must say it didn`t leave a good impression with me. Not sure what to do exactly. I have written to them so waiting for a reply.


----------



## Saponista (Feb 9, 2016)

Which company was it? I'm surprised there was no label at all, very odd. Quite often they have all the technical data sheets and msds available on the website so there isnt much need to put it on the label. Sensory perfection don't even put batch codes on their bottles, they are just simply labelled with the fragrance as you use the number on your invoice as the batch code, but no label at all, very weird.


----------



## MySoapyHeart (Feb 9, 2016)

I would be fine with just a simple label, but when I ordered I was expecting something similar that I had seen on the picture. I got this instead, so I was just a bit surprized.
Purchased via ebay. Not worried really since they have 100% positive feedback, so they seem customer friendly.

_From Craftovator fragrance oil._


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

Fragrance oils don't have to disclose their ingredients and can be incredibly toxic. They are to me.  [emoji53] Please do a little research and consider using only essential oils or real plants to create your fragrance.  http://www.wayoutwax.com/store/pc/viewcontent.asp?idpage=9


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 10, 2016)

twinkiesmommy2009 said:


> Fragrance oils don't have to disclose their ingredients and can be incredibly toxic. They are to me.  [emoji53] Please do a little research and consider using only essential oils or real plants to create your fragrance.  http://www.wayoutwax.com/store/pc/viewcontent.asp?idpage=9


You may not be able to use Fragrance Oil, but some people can only use synthetic. Synthetic is not bad and I really feel you should refrain from stating fragrance are incredibly toxic. It simply is not true. Some of us are very allergic to "Natural" Essential Oils. Many Essential Oils are toxic and dangerous when used incorrectly


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

You are correct about essential oils and people definitely react to those as well. There is no regulation of 'fragrances' at all and they do not have to disclose any of their ingredients. Many of which contain toxic chemicals that are carcinogens or can effect reproductive function. Even the CDC has a completely fragrance free policy that started in 2009. I personally will have asthma attacks from fragrances in other people's products. Check out the Environmental Working Group and what they have to say about fragrances too. Many organizations are saying that synthetic fragrance is like the new second hand smoke. 

Please do a little research. Synthetic fragrance is one of the top five allergens in the world.  The problem is the hidden ingredients. At least with essential oils you know exactly what is in it and can evaluate how it effects you. The same can not be said of 'fragrance' where the ingredients are completely unknown.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 10, 2016)

I beg to differ with essential oils. There are a lot of companies who lack the integrity to keep them pure and will cut these oils for profit. There's also a general lack of reliable information that requires some footwork since "everyone and their monkey's uncle" likes to tout their knowledge of essential oils but a fraction of them actually really know what they are talking about.

That said, I will take things with a grain of salt and use fragrance oils from companies I trust.


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 10, 2016)

^^^ Yep me too. I choose to use both. Since we do not live in sterile bubbles, we are subjected to toxins every day we live, it is life. The tiny tiny I will incur when using a bar of fragranced soap is not going to scare me and I really get tired of scare mongers....Just saying


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

I agree with you on the essential oils and I've done extensive research on them.  I can tell you if the few I have, none of them come from the popular MLMs and I know their exact source.  I think all companies for all products need to be transparent and disclose their ingredients but there is no regulation and they simply don't have to.  Most fragrance companies also aren't making the oils themselves but are getting them private label from 3rd parties so they will say their safe because their provider says they are. Allergies to these chemicals develop, you don't start with them.  I used to use them all, sprayed Febreeze, etc. I developed adult onset asthma two years ago, migraines, and a host of auto-immune issues that my doctor says it from over exposure to chemicals.  Fragrance is in everything, even shoes these days.  It only takes seconds to absorb into your skin.  If you watch what you eat, or look at organic options but don't pay attention to what is going on your skin (our largest organ) it could mean health issues later.  I'm just trying to help spread awareness.  I wouldn't wish this on anyone but it's becoming a much more prevalent issue. 

Please do real research from legitimate sources.  EWG, CDC, OSHA, American Lung Association, National Center for Biotechnology Information (a government website), Health Impact News... There are a ton.  Fragrance is a multi-billion dollar industry. The fragrance you use doesn't just effect you but everybody around you.  Many people have gone nose blind and can't even smell strong scents.  There are chemicals in the fragrances designed to do this.  Fragrance is a habit and one that is slowly polluting our air.  There isn't even fresh air outside anymore.  I have to wear nose filters to take my kids to the bus in the mornings most days because fabric softener getting vented outside triggers massive asthma attacks.  

I wouldn't wish this on anyone.  I'm just asking that everyone using fragrance oils do real and thorough research from independent and legitimate sources.  What you find may shock you.  And save you later.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 10, 2016)

MySoapyHeart said:


> I would be fine with just a simple label, but when I ordered I was expecting something similar that I had seen on the picture. I got this instead, so I was just a bit surprized.
> Purchased via ebay. Not worried really since they have 100% positive feedback, so they seem customer friendly.
> 
> _From Craftovator fragrance oil._



It's really better to avoid buying certain things from Ebay if you can help it. You would be better off paying more in shipping for a fragrance you want than to risk getting cheated or worse, a product that does harm to you or whoever uses your soap. You can put a price of a fragrance oil but you can not put a price tag on having and maintaining your health and safety.


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

It's not scare or fear mongering when it's real and effects your life.  It's also not a tiny amount you're exposing yourself to.  How many products do you use everyday?  How many do you breathe in that other people use.  It's enough to give some people overexposure to the point of complete intolerance.  Once upon a time they called the people getting sick from cigarette smoke fear mongerers. Now even the smokers know it's bad for them.  I used to smoke by the way.  Quit at 27 when I had kidney cancer.

I'm done stating my case but I hope that some that read this will at least do their own research and consider becoming part of the solution to our indoor air quality instead of continuing as part of the problem and dismissing the concerns.  A friend tried to tell me once but I didn't get it and now it effects me daily.  I just want to help spread awareness and save others from it if possible.  We share the air.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 10, 2016)

TM2009, I get what you're saying and your sentiments but it's really better to leave people to use what's best for them. EO's are actually a great deal worse for my child's skin than a fragrance oil and I can only tolerate a handful of them or my skin would be burning. In my body soaps, I can get away with fragrances as those soaps are not gentle enough for my face but my face soaps have zilch, maybe coffee or coconut milk will be added. But i's my discretion what I put on my skin or my child's for that matter.


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

Arimara, I totally get that.  I'm not promoting essential oils in any way and many of them are way over used and without proper education at that.  If not heavily diluted they can be equally dangerous and some people have severe allergies to them as well.  They are also a chemical and should be treated with care.  The only advantage is that with most (from reliable sources) is that you know what is in it and that it's concentrated.  You don't have a clue what is in fragrance or in what quantity those chemicals are used.  While what you are using for you and your child is your choice, what I hope everybody understands is that we share the air and that it doesn't only effect them.  I've had asthma attacks caused by other people's lotion, shampoo, laundry detergent, hand sanitizer, a child's shoes, the list is endless and I'm not the only one.  It's becoming a very real and serious problem.  My 6 year old son was recently diagnosed with cough variant asthma - like what the heck is that anyway.  It gets triggered by body sprays girls in elementary school are wearing.  9 out of 10 cancers come from environmental causes. 9 out of 10.  I had a '60 year old man's cancer' at 27 years old. How many people do you know that have had cancer?  Did their environment 'seem' dangerous?  No.  Because we don't realize the hidden toxins we are exposed to daily.  It's not a little here and there.  It's literally in everything.  We think we don't react to something because we don't have an outward reaction but we don't actually know what is happening inside if us.  I would challenge everybody to go a week, no, just 3 days fragrance free.  You'd find it impossible and start realizing how much is everywhere.  If you succeeded you'd be amazed at how much you can suddenly actually smell and how much stronger fragrances are than you ever realized.


----------



## green soap (Feb 10, 2016)

Of course people should use what they want or what they feel is best for them.

Just another data point, but I became sensitized to FOs using them in soap when I was in business.  I also found out my skin does not like clove essential oil.  I use clove EO on a muscle/joint pain balm, but cannot use it too often.

The difference is, EOs are listed in products made/sold by responsible soap makers (so I could avoid clove EOs in products if I choose to).  FO ingredients are not even known to the vendors that distribute them.  Perfume (FO) manufacturers get away with selling you a 'black box' in the name of 'trade secrets'.  So what is in them?  I cannot tolerate them anymore, even phantom FO scents make me gag.  It is very possible that some are better/worse than others, some might be safe, but it is not possible to tell, is it?  

This is why FOs are now permanently OFF my shopping cart and OFF all of my skin care products.  I still make everything we use on our skin, hair and even dish washing - (except tooth paste - I gave up on that one).


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

Thank you green soap.  Exactly.


----------



## Steve85569 (Feb 10, 2016)

TW2009,
Please just give it a rest and take a time out.

The OP was asking if the unlabeled FO was even legal.
*Think about the original question.
*The bottle is unlabeled. The person that put it together left now tracks as to what it is or where it came from.
Very good question as far as I am concerned. How would you even label soap made for sale in the EU without knowing what is or isn't in the FO ( or EO combinations)?

There are serious limits on how much EO can be used for contact and leave on products.
There is a sticky on that on this forum. I use it and I'm pretty sure that most  if not all) here use it or something very similar.

I think I'll go make a 1 Lb. batch of soap and put 3 oz. of clove EO in it because I like the smell.  NOT!!!!!!


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

The answer to the original question is yes, it's legal.  And they can put anything they want in it without disclosing a single ingredient because it is a 'trade secret' and there is zero regulation in the industry.  I don't use EO's or FO's in my soaps anymore.  I use real ingredients like vanilla, raspberry leaves, and peppermint leaves. I dehydrate herbs and fruits and make a tea with them to use as my water.  Comes out very nice and chemical free.


----------



## fionasfrightsoap (Feb 10, 2016)

This just happened to me as well, I usually buy from WSP but saw a deal on another small company's site for a weird scent I was looking for to make some soaps with my kids. The package came with just the name of the scent and nothing else. Discovering that is legal I am going to be far more selective in any future FO purchases for sure!


----------



## soapswirl (Feb 10, 2016)

In response to the original question, as it was sold in the EU I don't think it is legal. Yes, as its a fragrance oil the ingredients can just be listed as 'parfum', but it does require a name label, weight and batch number. The company selling it should also provide you with a msds, allergen declaration and ifra compliance statement on request. The EU regulations are strict and explicit about this. If the company won't provide you with those I would be wary of using it.


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

It was shipped to Norway.  The laws where the recipient resides are generally the ones that have to be followed and Norway doesn't have any regulation on this.


----------



## penelopejane (Feb 10, 2016)

MySoapyHeart said:


> So I purchased a fragrance oil.
> When I got my bottle it was round, had no label, name or ammount on it.
> Is this legal? I must say it didn`t leave a good impression with me. Not sure what to do exactly. I have written to them so waiting for a reply.



My FOs are on sold by an Australian supplier. They have Bramble Berry written in the label, the scent name and that is it. No weight or anything.  It's a glass jar so you can't check the weight.


----------



## green soap (Feb 10, 2016)

soapswirl said:


> In response to the original question, as it was sold in the EU I don't think it is legal. Yes, as its a fragrance oil the ingredients can just be listed as 'parfum', but it does require a name label, weight and batch number. The company selling it should also provide you with a msds, allergen declaration and ifra compliance statement on request. The EU regulations are strict and explicit about this. If the company won't provide you with those I would be wary of using it.



Norway is not part of the EU even though it obviously is in Europe geographically.


----------



## soapswirl (Feb 10, 2016)

I'm aware that Norway are not in the EU, however it was sold by a company in the UK which is in the EU. I would imagine that most of their market is in the UK where they do need to be compliant with EU regulations. And if they were compliant why would they abandon labelling procedure for exporting to Norway?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 10, 2016)

Would the shop in the uk change a standard label specifically for shopping to Norway? Not sure that they get enough call to ship to non-eu countries. 

Also do bear in mind that where some countries are not a member of the eu, they do sign up to a lot of the trade agreements so that they can trade more easily with the neighbors -

http://www.intertek.com/eu-cosmetic-regulation-and-attaining-compliance/

Third page.


----------



## soapswirl (Feb 10, 2016)

Thanks TEG, I was about to look up how Norway handled cosmetic legislation with their membership of the EEA!


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 10, 2016)

Believe it or not, it's more common than you think.  They get the stuff in huge batches and then go through bottling it.  It saves them time and materials if they know a product is being shipped where they don't have to follow the rules.  Not to mention that with no regulation in Norway the odds of the regulation being enforced on that purchase is highly unlikely.


----------



## MySoapyHeart (Feb 10, 2016)

Thank you, *all*, for your feedback and answers, I have a very limited time on the computer today so am not able to answer all of you. But appreciate all your different input!



Arimara said:


> It's really better to avoid buying certain things from Ebay if you can help it. You would be better off paying more in shipping for a fragrance you want than to risk getting cheated or worse, a product that does harm to you or whoever uses your soap. You can put a price of a fragrance oil but you can not put a price tag on having and maintaining your health and safety.



I absolutely agree with you there, and it was my very _first _time purchasing a fragrance from ebay, but I only did it because they have a designated website, but the shipping going through ebay was cheaper. It is safe to say I am not repeating this again...
One thing is the silicone molds that I am not using for food but for soap, but this was a test trial, and it showed me I will continue to get things from more informative vendors.

For what it is worth they wrote me back today, and apologized, they were shocked they told me. I don`t know if that was a standard phrase..They said this wasn`t something they do at all, and ALL their bottles were going out labeled with information on fragrance name and weight/amount. But as I said, it was a one time thing for me. I smells great, but I won`t use it in my soap, I think I will do something else with it entirely.



penelopejane said:


> My FOs are on sold by an Australian supplier. They have Bramble Berry written in the label, the scent name and that is it. No weight or anything.  It's a glass jar so you can't check the weight.



Thanks for the information. Lol, at least you got a label with _some _info, I just got a simple plastic jar with no label or info whatsoever.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Would the shop in the uk change a standard label specifically for shopping to Norway? Not sure that they get enough call to ship to non-eu countries.
> 
> Also do bear in mind that where some countries are not a member of the eu, they do sign up to a lot of the trade agreements so that they can trade more easily with the neighbors -
> 
> ...



Thank you for the link TEG, I saved it and will read it later, I like info like that. 
I mentioned a bit higher in the post that they wrote me back today, and apologized,  and said this was completely out of their norm. 

Well, I don`t know if that is true or not as I haven`t shopped with them before.  But if this isn`t something they do usually, it may be a simple slip up. But I didn`t get a really detailed answer as such, but they said it wouldn`t happen again. 
Their website has no data on the fragrances either so won`t buy from them again, especially since their fragrances seems to be direected especially towards _candlemaking_, but they say their fragrances can be used in soaps too. 
I am no chemist, but I haven`t found anything during all my research of fragrances etc. that there are fragrances that will work _equally well in both soaps and candles_, as those two seems to have completely different take on skin safety of the ingredients.
But as I said, I am no chemist so I may be wrong.


----------



## dillsandwitch (Feb 12, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> My FOs are on sold by an Australian supplier. They have Bramble Berry written in the label, the scent name and that is it. No weight or anything.  It's a glass jar so you can't check the weight.


Sorry to hijack the thread. 

Penelopejane have you tried the FOs from Aussie candle supplies and Natural candle supplies.  I usually get my FO from here and their labels have name, amount in the bottle and also the max % for usage in products.  Also they are decently priced and shipping's not so bad either


----------



## penelopejane (Feb 12, 2016)

Mine were from Aussie soaps! No usage rates or weights! I bought them a month or so ago.


----------



## CatQuirion (Feb 12, 2016)

There are more than a few EO's that should not be used by pregnant women, that can cause photosensitization, lung reactions, and contact dermatitis, and have cautions for people with various physical conditions in various uses. They are not necessarily harmless even though they are "natural."  Tisserand's "Essential Oil Safety" is a good reference.


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (Feb 12, 2016)

CatQuirion said:


> There are more than a few EO's that should not be used by pregnant women, that can cause photosensitization, lung reactions, and contact dermatitis, and have cautions for people with various physical conditions in various uses. They are not necessarily harmless even though they are "natural."  Tisserand's "Essential Oil Safety" is a good reference.




Tisserand is an excellent resource on EO safety.  Grapefruit also can interfere with many prescription heart medications.  My Mom has to be very careful with that.  The thing about EO's (with the exception of uneducated on the subject people diffusing them in public airspaces) is that you know the ingredients and can generally avoid them if you must.  More like a peanut allergy.  The problem with FO's is that you have no clue what the ingredients are and there can be over 300 in one 'fragrance'.  That is a chemical cocktail and potentially harmful to many.  Especially when the contents are 'trade secrets' it becomes impossible for those effected to even learn specifically which ingredients are proving harmful.  Instead they're under constant assault.  It would be like someone with an airborne peanut allergy but almost everybody, everywhere they go, is using a peanut body lotion.  

In the news:

Case of perfume causing repeated episodes of anaphylactic shock in a middle schooler:  http://www.kens5.com/story/news/201...middle-schooler-perfume-and-cologne/79795448/

Case of cinnamon EO nearly killing a bunch of kids in a daycare just by being diffused:  http://fox13now.com/2016/01/07/carb...are-caused-by-something-else-no-one-expected/

http://www.examiner.com/article/perfume-allergies-can-be-the-sweet-smell-of-death

We share airspace with others and unlike eating a peanut butter cookie, what people use and wear with FO's and EO's do effect others in a major way and 99% won't even be in a condition to tell you.  They will quietly slink away trying to escape the assault. I know, because I do it daily trying to avoid the sometimes impossible to avoid asthma attack or migraine.

Bottom line: Fragrance is not just effecting the wearer!  But everybody that comes across their airspace.  

If you don't know ALL of the ingredients so you can evaluate it properly, you should consider not using it.



CatQuirion said:


> There are more than a few EO's that should not be used by pregnant women, that can cause photosensitization, lung reactions, and contact dermatitis, and have cautions for people with various physical conditions in various uses. They are not necessarily harmless even though they are "natural."  Tisserand's "Essential Oil Safety" is a good reference.




Tisserand is an excellent resource on EO safety.  Grapefruit also can interfere with many prescription heart medications.  My Mom has to be very careful with that.  The thing about EO's (with the exception of uneducated on the subject people diffusing them in public airspaces) is that you know the ingredients and can generally avoid them if you must.  More like a peanut allergy.  The problem with FO's is that you have no clue what the ingredients are and there can be over 300 in one 'fragrance'.  That is a chemical cocktail and potentially harmful to many.  Especially when the contents are 'trade secrets' it becomes impossible for those effected to even learn specifically which ingredients are proving harmful.  Instead they're under constant assault.  It would be like someone with an airborne peanut allergy but almost everybody, everywhere they go, is using a peanut body lotion.  

In the news:

Case of perfume causing repeated episodes of anaphylactic shock in a middle schooler:  http://www.kens5.com/story/news/201...middle-schooler-perfume-and-cologne/79795448/

Case of cinnamon EO nearly killing a bunch of kids in a daycare just by being diffused:  http://fox13now.com/2016/01/07/carb...are-caused-by-something-else-no-one-expected/

http://www.examiner.com/article/perfume-allergies-can-be-the-sweet-smell-of-death

We share airspace with others and unlike eating a peanut butter cookie, what people use and wear with FO's and EO's do effect others in a major way and 99% won't even be in a condition to tell you.  They will quietly slink away trying to escape the assault. I know, because I do it daily trying to avoid the sometimes impossible to avoid asthma attack or migraine.

Bottom line: Fragrance is not just effecting the wearer!  But everybody that comes across their airspace.  

If you don't know ALL of the ingredients so you can evaluate it properly, you should consider not using it.


----------



## Serene (Feb 12, 2016)

I thought this thread was about an unlabeled fragrance?  Am I missing something?


----------



## Arimara (Feb 12, 2016)

Serene said:


> I thought this thread was about an unlabeled fragrance?  Am I missing something?



We have a habit of getting derailed in our threads sometimes. Nothing to worry about.


----------



## green soap (Feb 12, 2016)

[/QUOTE]
I am no chemist, but I haven`t found anything during all my research of fragrances etc. that there are fragrances that will work _equally well in both soaps and candles_, as those two seems to have completely different take on skin safety of the ingredients.
But as I said, I am no chemist so I may be wrong.[/QUOTE]

Chemistry is not going to help much when the ingredients are kept a secret!  

I make both soaps and candles.  From experience I can tell you that many fragrances do work equally well in soap and candles.  Some of the candle fragrances are not skin safe and therefore not suitable for soap, but out of a dozen or so fragrances sold specifically for soap, all of them performed very well in candles.  As a mater of fact they performed better, since acceleration is a moot point for candles.  

(this part is more for American readers). The distributors I used were: Candlescience (they say if their fragrances are good for both or only for candles); Bramble Berry and Camden Grey.  The last two sell their fragrances specifically for soap and they had no information on their use in candles.  The FOs I had went all over the place in scent types (woodsy, floral, herbal, resiny, fruity, oceany, boozy.....) And all of them did great in soy candles.


----------



## IrishLass (Feb 12, 2016)

Twinkiesmommy2009- this thread is getting way off topic from the OP's intent. I respectively ask you please stick to MySoapyHeart's topic of packaging. If you would like to continue to discuss EO safety vs FO safety, we invite you to start your own thread.


IrishLass


----------

