# Preservatives



## nanzclaire (Oct 23, 2015)

Hi all,

I am trying to make everything with all natural or natural deprived ingredients. I am currently looking for a workable and efficient preservative that is natural! I honestly googled many times and all I found most is LGP or GP . 

Any better ideas?

Cheers!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 23, 2015)

There are currently no all natural (not that "all natural" has an industry definition) preservatives out there.  There are some that are better than others (non-paraben, eco-cert and so on) but nothing totally natural.

1% of my lotion being a non-natural substance is not actually that bad - when you consider that the alternative is shelf-life being calculated in weeks not months and it having to be kept chilled and so on. Otherwise you'll end up smearing all-natural mould all over yourself :sick::sick:


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## nanzclaire (Oct 23, 2015)

Cheers The EG! Can you give me some suggestions on which Eco-very preservatives would you recommend ? 

X


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 23, 2015)

I use Cosgard Geograd, which is not suitable for soaps but it is great for lotions and so on.

Edit, just realised that LS is indeed your need - sorry!


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## ngian (Oct 23, 2015)

Liquid soaps (KOH) don't need preservatives but anti oxidants as they have high PH range (9-10,5) where lotions and conditioners need preservatives.

Read more here:  http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.gr/2009/04/preservatives.html


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## IrishLass (Oct 23, 2015)

You don't need to read very far before running into the ongoing back-and-forth debate about whether or not preservatives are needed in liquid soap, with very intelligent, science-credentialed people standing on different sides of the fence. 

Although I use a preservative system in my lotion (Phenonip in conjunction with Tetrasodium EDTA), I don't use any in my liquid soap. I've read plenty on both sides of the debate, and since I don't sell, I have chosen to err on the side of using none.

I should mention, though, that I do use Tetrasodium EDTA in my liquid soap (to combat hard water issues). Although it's not a preservative, by the way, and it won't actively kill bacteria/molds/fungi, I thought I'd mention it because it does happen to help in somewhat of a more clandestine way by starving those things of their food so that's it's more difficult for them to multiply. 

Here's a discussion that helped me greatly in making my decision to forego using a preservative in my liquid soap (start at post #997 by SilverDoctor): http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/i...7-glycerin-method-liquid-soap/page-40?hl=edta

Again- I want to mention that I don't sell. If I did, though, I would use one because it's a good thing to have all your bases covered just in case, and I would use Liquid Germall Plus since it works in all levels of pH. Several preservatives don't, by the way, so you have to be mindful of that. 

Also, some preservatives are rendered ineffective by certain ingredients such as polysorbates, etc.., so if you use those in your formula to help emulsify superfats or FOs in your liquid soap (as I do), you need to be mindful of that, too.


IrishLass


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## SplendorSoaps (Oct 23, 2015)

Just throwing in another tidbit of info... You also need to be careful with the temperature of the products that you're adding the preservatives to. I use Optiphen Plus in my lotion, and it will be rendered ineffective if used over 176 degrees Fahrenheit. Of course, Optiphen is used in products with a much lower pH than liquid soap, but it's something to keep in mind when choosing a preservative.


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## Susie (Oct 23, 2015)

I am with IrishLass, I don't use preservatives because I don't sell.  I currently have a small bottle of my first liquid soap.  It is 2 years old, and has no sign of any pathogen growth.  I checked it under a microscope not too long ago, maybe a few months.  I will check again in a few.


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## nanzclaire (Oct 27, 2015)

Hi guys! Thanks for the responses! 

I will still find a better preservative system as I do want to develop this into my business and even so, need it for cream and lotion etc too! 

But I do hope it will have a system that as natural as possible! 

Xx


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## lsg (Oct 27, 2015)

I suggest you read Lindy's post on LS/Cream Soap and preservatives.  I now use preservatives in my cream soap and liquid soap.  You may not be able to see mold or bacteria in your liquid soap, but if tested you might be surprised.  I have had mold on cream soap that did not contain preservatives.  JMO:smile:


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## paillo (Oct 27, 2015)

I use Eco-Cert NeoDefend from LotionCrafter in my lotions and creams, but never in conjunction with Vitamin C or citric acid in my serums due to concerns about the formation of benzene. I don't sell any of these, just for myself, family and a couple of good friends.


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## cmzaha (Oct 27, 2015)

lsg said:


> I suggest you read Lindy's post on LS/Cream Soap and preservatives.  I now use preservatives in my cream soap and liquid soap.  You may not be able to see mold or bacteria in your liquid soap, but if tested you might be surprised.  I have had mold on cream soap that did not contain preservatives.  JMO:smile:


I have also had visible mold on un-preserved cream soap and once with ls so I can imagine what else was there.  That was enough for me to start preserving with Germall Plus


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## nanzclaire (Oct 27, 2015)

Paillo, I searched the NeoDefend and it said only for ph3-6!as you mentioned you avoid using citric acid , how would it work as shouldn't normal liquid soap in range of pH 9-10ish? Thanks in advance for any reply!

And knowing more about Germall plus, how harmful is it and actually can it work well alone or need to build up a system ?

Again thanks guys!


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## paillo (Oct 27, 2015)

I wish I knew anything about liquid soap, but have never tried making it. Maybe some of our most experienced will chime in again.


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## IrishLass (Oct 27, 2015)

nanzclaire said:


> Paillo, I searched the NeoDefend and it said only for ph3-6!as you mentioned you avoid using citric acid , how would it work as shouldn't normal liquid soap in range of pH 9-10ish? Thanks in advance for any reply!


 
You'll definitely want to be mindful of which preservative you choose to use for lye-based liquid soap, since the pH is on the alkaline side- normally around 9 to 10.5. 

Liquid Germall Plus would work much better for you in your liquid soap because it works in a much wider range of pH, including the higher pH of liquid soaps. If the NeoDefend only works in a pH range of 3 and 6, it will be useless in your liquid soap. 


IrishLass


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## nanzclaire (Oct 28, 2015)

But liquid Germall plus isn't nature?! And can it be used alone or need to match a system ? 

I want to have a preservatives that good for face wash, body lotions, creams and liquid soap! 

Thanks guys again!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 28, 2015)

No preservative will be 'nature' - nature is mould and germs and viruses!

I don't know what you mean by "system" - do you have some examples of a product that has to be used with other ones?


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## shunt2011 (Oct 28, 2015)

nanzclaire said:


> But liquid Germall plus isn't nature?! And can it be used alone or need to match a system ?
> 
> I want to have a preservatives that good for face wash, body lotions, creams and liquid soap!
> 
> Thanks guys again!


 
You will need different preservatives for different products. What works in one type of product will not work in another. 

As TEG stated there is no Nature (natural) preservatives. Besides, I would prefer to have a small % of a good preservative than a large % of ickies in my product.


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## swtamour (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm new to liquid soap making and I looked at the liquid Germall Plus, the pH range is 3-8 while liquid soap is 9-10.  Would this preservative still work?  I used pH strips on my first batch of liquid soap and it seems to be a 9.  I like that Germall plus is paraben free but is there another preservative with a wider pH range?  Thanks.


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## Susie (Nov 22, 2015)

You need to toss the pH strips in the trash and get you a good pH meter.  Be sure to properly dilute the LS before testing.


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## Dahila (Nov 23, 2015)

nanzclaire said:


> But liquid Germall plus isn't nature?! And can it be used alone or need to match a system ?
> 
> I want to have a preservatives that good for face wash, body lotions, creams and liquid soap!
> 
> Thanks guys again!


you killing me, (


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## DeeAnna (Nov 23, 2015)

The official instructions for Germall Plus do indeed say it is only effective up to pH 8. Off-label advice from cosmetic chemists experienced with Germall Plus say the preservative is effective to pH 11. That is the basis for using Germall Plus in diluted liquid soap.


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## pickled78 (Nov 18, 2016)

*Natural*



nanzclaire said:


> But liquid Germall plus isn't nature?! And can it be used alone or need to match a system ?
> 
> I want to have a preservatives that good for face wash, body lotions, creams and liquid soap!
> 
> Thanks guys again!



Hi, im into natural too, I make medicated herbal creams and ointments, also liquid soap. Most people use Benzoin essential oil or tincture as a preservative in most natural products and I use a few drops of it in liquid soap. I use the '_Julia Lawless Aqua Oleum Benzoin _' as it is diluted in a 40% castor oil (_Benzoin is a tree sap hard resin undiluted_). Be careful tho a lot of other companies use chemicals and propyl alcohol to dilute which you don't want!! 

I started making my own due to having a lot of benzoin resin for incense, I broke the resin down and added it to a jar and topped it up with virgin olive oil, I shake the contents every time i see it in the kitchen cupboard, its been a year now so will start using it soon in all my products.

I think that's as natural as your going to get and hope it helps.


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## pickled78 (Nov 18, 2016)

Hi,
concerning Germall plus a lot of you use as preservative, I would like to quote some alarming info from another site, and also share the links to the page and another relevant site.
Quote from : (link 1)
http://www.skincaretalk.com/showthread.php/13212-AVOID!Germall-Plus-Germall-II-and-Germal-115

"AVOID!Germall Plus, Germall II and Germal 115
Watch out for these: Germall Plus, Germall II and Germal 115 (preservatives), when making your lotion. 
I constantly find claims that they are safe in homemade lotions all over the place. They are the main cause of *eczema and contact dermatitis in skin care products* (according to the American Academy of Dermatology). According to this very informative web site again  >>>cosmeticsdatabase.com<<<,   this product has the ingredient *DIAZOLIDINYL UREA*, sometimes just called *Urea* (as well as others not quite as bad), which has been linked to cancer and a LIST OF EFFECTS AND HAZARDS TOO LONG for me to list here in the areas of- *cancer, neurotoxicity, organ system toxicity, reproductive toxicity, skin irritant, penetration enhancer, and cosmetic restrictions in other countries.* 
*This ingredient contains government warnings that it is hazardous*, yet time and time again I find web sites selling this product as- safe for homemade and natural creations, so even the people buying them who don't do their homework think they are doing the world a service with their homemade lotions and soaps and they are not".

There is more to the post, and 'Ko6kin' can back up her findings and finishes with this statement:
"This information is a report based on years of research. I encourage your own investigation into this matter. It's important for us all to stay up to date".

(Link 2): www.cosmeticsdatabase.com


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## dixiedragon (Nov 18, 2016)

Every substance on Earth causes bad reactions in some people - including sunlight and water. So yes, there are probably people who react badly to preservatives. Those folks probably need to avoid products with water (like lotion), or use a refrigerated lotion in small batches.

Unless you are refrigerating or using your lotion up in a week or so, preservatives are not optional. Lotion is a BREEDING GROUND for mold and bacteria.

https://tikibarsoap.com/single-oil-lotion-swap-and-the-importance-of-preservatives-in-lotion/

You may not want to use Germall. Check out Swiftcraftymonkey to learn more about other options, including Optiphen or Phenonip. Or you can make oil-only products that are much much less bacteria friendly.


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## cmzaha (Nov 18, 2016)

pickled78 said:


> Hi, im into natural too, I make medicated herbal creams and ointments, also liquid soap. Most people use Benzoin essential oil or tincture as a preservative in most natural products and I use a few drops of it in liquid soap. I use the '_Julia Lawless Aqua Oleum Benzoin _' as it is diluted in a 40% castor oil (_Benzoin is a tree sap hard resin undiluted_). Be careful tho a lot of other companies use chemicals and propyl alcohol to dilute which you don't want!!
> 
> I started making my own due to having a lot of benzoin resin for incense, I broke the resin down and added it to a jar and topped it up with virgin olive oil, I shake the contents every time i see it in the kitchen cupboard, its been a year now so will start using it soon in all my products.
> 
> I think that's as natural as your going to get and hope it helps.


I hope you are not planning on selling or advertising balms as medicated. It is against the FDA in the US, and will nullify your insurance in some cases, I not sure about Europe, but they are more stringent than us. Benzoin is not going to keep an emulsified lotion bug free. Hopefully you are making anhydrous products. (no water).


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## DeeAnna (Nov 18, 2016)

I agree with Dixie and Carolyn.

Furthermore, cosmeticsdatabase.com is "EWG's Skin Deep" website. EWG is famous for taking a legitimate fact and blowing it way out of proportion to promote their alarmist agenda and drum up donations. When information is quoted from peer-reviewed scientific studies or from reputable sources such as the National Institute of Health, then I take these concerns a lot more seriously.

It is unarguably true that diazolidinyl urea functions as a preservative by releasing trace amounts of formaldehyde. But wait ... if this is so bad, then one shouldn't eat apples or pears either! The dose of formaldehyde a person ingests by eating one apple is roughly equivalent to the formaldehyde released from shampooing with a product correctly preserved with LGP or other formaldehyde-releasing preservative. And arguably the person receives a larger dose of formaldehyde from the apple since it is swallowed, while the shampoo gets largely rinsed down the drain.


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## pickled78 (Nov 18, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> I hope you are not planning on selling or advertising balms as medicated. It is against the FDA in the US, and will nullify your insurance in some cases, I not sure about Europe, but they are more stringent than us. Benzoin is not going to keep an emulsified lotion bug free. Hopefully you are making anhydrous products. (no water).


LOL god no i don't sell and know the s**t id be in if was & labeled medicine, I do make vodka based tinctures which are remedies for friends when requested, they supply the ingredients & ill do the rest   , and by medicated i mean the basics for burns, skin conditions and cuts, bruises aches and pains.
I don't use water, just beeswax, lanolin and glycerine, the benzoin gives a longer shelf life, all i know is it works for me and obviously others who recommend it.


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## pickled78 (Nov 18, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> I agree with Dixie and Carolyn.
> 
> Furthermore, cosmeticsdatabase.com is "EWG's Skin Deep" website. EWG is famous for taking a legitimate fact and blowing it way out of proportion to promote their alarmist agenda and drum up donations. When information is quoted from peer-reviewed scientific studies or from reputable sources such as the National Institute of Health, then I take these concerns a lot more seriously.
> 
> It is unarguably true that diazolidinyl urea functions as a preservative by releasing trace amounts of formaldehyde. But wait ... if this is so bad, then one shouldn't eat apples or pears either! The dose of formaldehyde a person ingests by eating one apple is roughly equivalent to the formaldehyde released from shampooing with a product correctly preserved with LGP or other formaldehyde-releasing preservative. And arguably the person receives a larger dose of formaldehyde from the apple since it is swallowed, while the shampoo gets largely rinsed down the drain.



Jesus christ formaldehyde!! please dont even go there. The system is corrupt and we are being poisoned by everything, its stated on the labels, read and research every ingredient, I don't take advice from profit making companies, there are plenty of neutral info sites who know what they are on about and not trying to profit ( info gained from those who profit from the product you seek advice on is absurd-just as absurd as the FDA who allow in absolutely every food product aspartame!! next your tell me im crazy and its safe!

No chemical is good no matter how small the quantity due to the fact that from food to cosmetics and toilet cleaner etc 'its only a little' but all these little's adds up thru the day / week / month....
We are organic beings..We need organic products (organic means NO CHEMICALS just like years ago - a veg garden thats laced from the beginning with chemicals will then produce veg that has traces of those chemicals in every cell) If we were synthetic beings I would understand but we are not.

I did not intend to put anyones nose out of joint which is why i inputted that post without my views but as a vital piece of information so EVERY ONE is privvy to the info to make an informed choice and can then -like it states - 'please research it for yourselves'. Please tho do not tell me chemicals are ok, they are not.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 18, 2016)

My nose is not out of joint -- I'm actually rather amused that you would think so. There are two points of importance here -- 

First, EWG is not a reputable nor reliable source for unbiased information. 

Second, as with most of life you have to put the facts about this preservative in realistic perspective. 

If peer-reviewed scientific studies and other reputable sources are too suspect and biased for you, then suit yourself as to where you want to get your information. But when you *BOLD* and *HIGHLIGHT* a collection of statements and cite EWG ... you should expect a skeptical reception.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 18, 2016)

Can also specify what is a chemical and what isn't? I consider all things to be a chemical in some way. If these sorts of sources are classing only "bad chemicals" as actually being chemicals then of course they are saying that all chemicals are "bad". 

The fact that you have researched and don't make that distinction makes me think about your sources with a little bit less favour, I have to say. I'm assuming the sources are dodgy rather than your interpretation of their findings


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## Arimara (Nov 18, 2016)

pickled78 said:


> Jesus christ formaldehyde!! please dont even go there. The system is corrupt and we are being poisoned by everything, its stated on the labels, read and research every ingredient, I don't take advice from profit making companies, there are plenty of neutral info sites who know what they are on about and not trying to profit ( info gained from those who profit from the product you seek advice on is absurd-just as absurd as the FDA who allow in absolutely every food product aspartame!! next your tell me im crazy and its safe!
> 
> No chemical is good no matter how small the quantity due to the fact that from food to cosmetics and toilet cleaner etc 'its only a little' but all these little's adds up thru the day / week / month....
> We are organic beings..We need organic products (organic means NO CHEMICALS just like years ago - a veg garden thats laced from the beginning with chemicals will then produce veg that has traces of those chemicals in every cell) If we were synthetic beings I would understand but we are not.
> ...



I'm going to just say this straight and risk a warning- That's just a load of crock. EVERYTHING is made up of chemicals, right down to organic foods and the essential oils everyone loves to rave about while conveniently forgetting that they can be just as dangerous, if not more so, than synthetic fragrance oils.

I used to follow those websites but then, sometime after I turned 25, I started having a look at those sites and thought about their wording and how propaganda works. Even more research lead me to see that the very "chemicals" I was shunning were actually more beneficial to me and mine than some of the natural things, that quite frankly, irritated my skin more.


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## lenarenee (Nov 18, 2016)

Arimara said:


> I'm going to just say this straight and risk a warning- That's just a load of crock. EVERYTHING is made up of chemicals, right down to organic foods and the essential oils everyone loves to rave about while conveniently forgetting that they can be just as dangerous, if not more so, than synthetic fragrance oils.
> 
> I used to follow those websites but then, sometime after I turned 25, I started having a look at those sites and thought about their wording and how propaganda works. Even more research lead me to see that the very "chemicals" I was shunning were actually more beneficial to me and mine than some of the natural things, that quite frankly, irritated my skin more.



Not only that, but the skin does NOT absorb everything!  I used to be a semi-believer of the mommy blogs and such - until I took college level biology and physiology. The body has a marvelous way of protecting itself, even with the things that do make it into the bloodstream.   

One simple way to reduce your exposure to unwanted chemicals is simply use less, buy less, and only buy foodstuffs stored in glass.

It takes tons of dedicated research to sort through the science. I'm lazy, and would prefer to have some website do the work for me. However, you'll never know if they were thorough enough until you do your own - and dig deeper than you ever thought you had to.

I've made hydrous and anhydrous skin care without preservatives, and with inadequate preservatives. I've seen how ugly it gets. I've also experienced a stubborn "hmmm, let's test this for MRSA" skin infection requiring several different types of antibiotics to kill it. 

Preservatives are my friends. 

I now mostly buy my lotions from reputable companies who have the money to challenge test their products. Even when I do make my own, I keep it in a pump bottle, and any extra is stored in the 'fridge and tossed after 30 days.


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