# Un-ethical



## cmzaha

It is a sad when a large supplier (no name mentioned) post recipes for making your products and copies names. My daughter talked to *** and she commented how great our site was and pointed out some of our products how nice they look. Low and behold a week later we see a tutorial on the blog about making one of our products. :cry: Now we just noticed she copied the name of one of our products and has a tutorial for it. Bad Bad business. Have to say she did not duplicate the first product very well. 
We have talked to the ethics board with the Guild and will be filing a complaint. 

We all struggle to get somewhere in this highly competitave business and the last thing we need is to have a supplier copy so they can sell product. 

One of the products took my daughter 2 years to perfect. Can guarantee this supplier lost a 5 yr customer


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## Lindy

I'm glad you talked to the guild.  That is absolutely disgusting.


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## dixiedragon

Wow. I would be so mad.


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## Susie

Yeah, that stinks!  How dare they?  I am so glad you are standing up for yourself and filing a complaint!  I do wish, however, that there would be some safe method of letting us all know which companies are less than ethical without treading on dangerous legal grounds.


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## cmzaha

Susie said:


> Yeah, that stinks! How dare they? I am so glad you are standing up for yourself and filing a complaint! I do wish, however, that there would be some safe method of letting us all know which companies are less than ethical without treading on dangerous legal grounds.


 
I do to


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## roseb

Gosh, I'm so sorry to hear that!  Sucks when you work so hard and someone just comes along & steals your idea/product!


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## softpinklove

Oh wow, well I'm glad you reported them, that's just so horrible!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Boo and hiss!  Glad there is a method to report them - a great thing about being in a guild-type organisation.  Hope it gets resolved.


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## shunt2011

I'm so sorry this happened to you.  Good for you for reporting them, I hope you get some resolution as this is totally disgusting.  I've been seeing more and more people/places trying to duplicate other's hard work and it's sucks.   It's just not ethical.


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## Amber123

*Stealing ideas :-(*

I've been wondering if companies do this that offer the lye calculators....are they keeping your recipes?  It's crossed my mind..any thoughts?


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## Genny

I've noticed a couple suppliers doing this very thing to their customers lately.  It's awful and incredibly unethical.   Suppliers are always asking for us B & B'ers to post pics of our products using their ingredients on their pages, but not if they're going to copy you.


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## PuddinAndPeanuts

May I ask why you can't tell us who it was?  Are we only allowed to talk about suppliers when it's positive?  That seems counterproductive in an environment like this, or am I missing a key point?  I get that mean-spirited bashing is a no-no, of course.  But there's a big difference between a statement like: 'Acme Soap Supply has been unreliable lately, with shipments arriving weeks past due, and items missing from orders' and soething like: 'Jane Doe who owns Acme Soap Supply is a charlatan and a witch'.


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## Ktaggard

I'm sorry that happened to you. That really stinks!!! The only good thing about it is - your products must be awesome if people want to copy them!  
I do agree with PuddinandPeanuts. You might want to tell us who the supplier is. It might be a way of getting some justice.  I would probably shy away from being a customer if I knew a supplier was doing that. Just a thought - but no pressure.


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## Susie

We have discovered this absolutely wonderful method to get companies to do what they should:  the internet.  Just go out there and tell folks honestly what happened, along with what the company's response to your request was.  Got a couple of refunds recently when company employees did not do the right thing.


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## wetshavingproducts

Amber123 said:


> I've been wondering if companies do this that offer the lye calculators....are they keeping your recipes?  It's crossed my mind..any thoughts?



Too many people putting in recipes that don't actually work to be able to mine any nuggets out of there. There's no algorithm for a good soap recipe, otherwise we would be using it.


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## wetshavingproducts

Susie said:


> Yeah, that stinks!  How dare they?  I am so glad you are standing up for yourself and filing a complaint!  I do wish, however, that there would be some safe method of letting us all know which companies are less than ethical without treading on dangerous legal grounds.



It's called telling the truth. And by truth, I don't mean your version of the truth. I mean the cold hard, undisputed timeline of events.


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## Susie

Yep,  I checked with an attorney friend.  There is nothing illegal or sue-able about telling the truth.  Even on the internet.  The only hesitation would be if you are going to sue them for copying your recipe.  If you are, you need to not say the name so as to not hurt your image to the judge/jury.


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## wetshavingproducts

Unless there's a non disclosure agreement, there is no recourse for copying a recipe. It's a trade secret and if you gave it away, too bad.

If someone made something similar to yours, too bad. Perfectly legal.

If someone copied a name your using as a trademark... perhaps visiting a lawyer might be worthwhile.


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## houseofwool

wetshavingproducts said:


> Unless there's a non disclosure agreement, there is no recourse for copying a recipe. It's a trade secret and if you gave it away, too bad.
> 
> If someone made something similar to yours, too bad. Perfectly legal.
> 
> If someone copied a name your using as a trademark... perhaps visiting a lawyer might be worthwhile.



The OP does not say that they disclosed the formula, just that they told the supplier that they used their ingredients in a specific product.  The timing seems very suspicious.


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## dixiedragon

One thing I'm not clear on - did your daughter tell them how she made the product? Or did they look at the product, then deduce how she made it?


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## cmzaha

wetshavingproducts said:


> Unless there's a non disclosure agreement, there is no recourse for copying a recipe. It's a trade secret and if you gave it away, too bad.
> 
> If someone made something similar to yours, too bad. Perfectly legal.
> 
> If someone copied a name your using as a trademark... perhaps visiting a lawyer might be worthwhile.



Never said it was illegal just unethical. Yes, we are aware of the points you made. These large suppliers also know the average small soapmaker Cannot afford $350 per hr for an attorney.  
Also we gave nothing away just a pic of the product, then noticed they tried to make the product themselves and posted a recipe (not ours), and picked a similar name. Our Guild did find it to be unethical and apparently contacted them. This company is also very Big in the Guild. Fortunately for us their version of the product does not work well, but customers are going to waste good money on expensive products trying their recipe. "Click link to put all supplies in your shopping cart"...:thumbdown:


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## wetshavingproducts

houseofwool said:


> The OP does not say that they disclosed the formula, just that they told the supplier that they used their ingredients in a specific product.  The timing seems very suspicious.



At some point in this thread, legal recourse showed up. I was simply pointing out the potential lack of legal cause.

@ Carolyn,
Yes, unethical. My post is not targeted at you unless you were planning on a lawsuit.


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## cmzaha

wetshavingproducts said:


> At some point in this thread, legal recourse showed up. I was simply pointing out the potential lack of legal cause.
> 
> @ Carolyn,
> Yes, unethical. My post is not targeted at you unless you were planning on a lawsuit.


Absolutely I was not planning a lawsuit. That would be a loser from the get go. I only go after what I know I can win


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## Consuela

I believe I've deduced which company this was, and if I'm correct, then that's just one more reason why I do not order from them (as I believe someone in their office, has a rather.....tainted view of herself which was a major turn off for me, and one of the major reasons why I never spent a dime with them). And if I'm wrong - then that's okay too because I've been wrong before. Maybe this lady is a sweetheart and I just assume their company to be the culprit.

.... And I'm sorry for you for two reasons:

1.) A company that large, that popular, and that _prestigious_ has ZERO business in becoming inspired by, copying, or duplicating (along with a similar name) your product, and passing it off as theirs without proper credit. It's unprofessional, and it's unkosher. 

Plainly, it's flippling tacky.

In University we called it plagiarism; when someone passed an idea off as their own.

Now, asking you or your daughter to write a "guest blog post" or a tutorial (with tweaks that leave your trade secrets, YOURS, minor modifications to make it generic) - completely different. THAT is what should have happened. 

If someone took note of your product and thought "Wow, that's a neat product." They should have asked if you would be interested in doing a tutorial. Rather than posting their own - and making it look like it was their idea. 

Like I said, tacky. Super tacky. I am outraged for you..because this seems very blatant.


2. Generally in soap making there are overlaps in intellectual property - because lets face it, when you're a soaper - you are always soaping...even when you're not soaping: you are soaping. Your brain is going a million miles a minute building soap even when you're in that early stage of starting your day. (I try not to think about anything until after my coffee, but sometimes I wake up with ideas and start soaping while my coffee is still hot.)

And sometimes some of us all have the same general ideas for products, or for smells or what have you. The possibilities are limitless for soap making - rabit holes and all that.

Can anyone here take credit for being the first person to make or think of a Cinnamon Swirl Soap...? Or a Lavender Soap with lavender buds on top? Probably not. We probably all started with the same book (or style of book) that gave us a few ideas to kick us off on our creative runs.

But, what is entirely possible is that two people on opposite sides of the world can have the same idea, or the same image for their soap, or the same names. 

(I thought I was pretty freaking unique with my "Plain Jane" soap until I found two other soapers using the same name for their plain bars - and none of them are on this forum as far as I know, and none of them were online. These were other soapers from different provinces and we were all at the same Christmas Craft Fair - yeah that was super fun and we all laughed about it. Then I googled and sure enough, there were online Plain Janer's too.

BUT.

I really don't feel like that's what's happened here to you. I feel like this was genuine fishy-copy-catting, and I'm very sorry that happened to you. I would absolutely discontinue purchasing from that supplier. Absolutely.


And glad you reported it, because you're a small business - and those big companies...man, they can make or break us when it comes right down to the wire of things....


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## KatsKreations

That stinks! Hard when a company tries to steal your ideas. They say copy is the best form of flattery. At least they got the formulation wrong and the soap does not work well. I will have to research so I do not buy from them. Numbers talk.


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## WAsoaps

cmzaha said:


> "Click link to put all supplies in your shopping cart"...:thumbdown:



^^I think this gives away who you're talking about. Pretty sure anyway. lol

I have some of their FOs. I have only ordered from them once or twice over 2 years ago. 

I can't stand shady copy cats. Especially when it's someone doing THAT well (multimillionaire). Like it would hurt them to give you a nod? smh


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## Jstar

> "Click link to put all supplies in your shopping cart"...



Ummm yeaaa I think we all know who it is....and that's pretty unethical...


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## girlishcharm2004

cmzaha said:


> "Click link to put all supplies in your shopping cart"...:thumbdown:



Uhhh, I know of a couple soap suppliers that have that quote/link on their website.  I'm not sure that means it's a dead give-away.  I would hate for an innocent company to hurt for a rumor.  (The "event" is not the rumor, it's the fact that people are speculation *who* exactly did this).



cmzaha said:


> Never said it was illegal just unethical...



I had to look up the definition of "unethical" which means "not morally correct".  I then looked up the definition of "moral" which means "concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior".  I *do* understand that while something may be legal, it may not be ethical.  However, in this case, I don't see how that fits.  Only in specific countries "plagiarism" is seen as bad.  In others, it's widely accepted and encouraged.  (Can anyone say "Bollywood"? Has anyone seen "Bride and Prejudice"?) While they may have modeled their product after an idea inspired by you, by no means does it sound like they "copied" you.

I would like to point out that you have the comfort of knowing that you have the better product.  You win -- don't let it give you grey hairs. 

I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for this...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I think that the Bollywood reference is somewhat fallicious.  There are two rather distinct markets for Hollywood films and Bollywood films rather than a competitive single market.  In this soaping instance, the market is actually the same.  It might even be different if I (over here in the EU) did something similar to someone over there (In the Americas) as the markets are rather different and it is not really feasible to ship a bar of soap over the pond.  But in this instance, it is very much the same market.


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## girlishcharm2004

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I think that the Bollywood reference is somewhat fallicious.  There are two rather distinct markets for Hollywood films and Bollywood films rather than a competitive single market.  In this soaping instance, the market is actually the same.



Actually, if you want to apply that literally to my comment about plagiarism and copying, then I would have to disagree with you -- respectfully, of course. You say Bollywood and Hollywood are both film related, but they are two distinct markets. However, it sounds like the original poster and said company are in two distinct markets as well.  The original poster is selling soap to those that use it.  It sounds like said company is selling ingredients to those that soap.

It is entirely possible that I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. 

However, that does not detract from my point that there is no standard of measurement to determine "how much" or "what type" of copying is wrong other than the law which said company did not break.  Therefore, not only is their action completely legal, but also there's no other standard which to compare their action since the ideas of plagiarism and copying are arbitrary based on one's region and association.  There is no consistency to define the ethics of copying.

Honestly, it's no big deal... the semantics, that is.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

The point about markets is a good one.

I am not so sure about something being okay just because it is not actually illegal and there is some ambiguity over a word.  While it is not illegal, it can still be classed as wrong - even if not everyone would agree with that classification.  Unethical is even easier to apply to the example here


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## girlishcharm2004

Oh, I completely agree. Lying to your neighbor may be perfectly legal, but it's unethical. Likewise, it's illegal in some countries to have more than one child, but it's perfectly ethical to have more kids if one chooses.  With such a vast array of opinions and laws, there must be a common ground.  But, now we're getting into the realm of "what makes something right?" and "what makes something wrong?"

I was merely pointing out that not only was it perfectly legal, there was nothing unethical, per se, about said companies actions.  Now, honestly, I might be a little upset if someone expanded on an idea I had and did it better than me leaving me in the dust -- I would be upset with myself for not being able to keep up in the competition.  However, the fact that the original poster not only has the better product anyway, but also is addressing a different market leaves me even more baffled at the outrage especially when no principles were even broken.  

Anyhow, enough of that. I don't need to beat a dead horse, so to speak, at 3 in the morning.  Must get sleep, lest I become irrational if I haven't already.  Good night.


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## claudep

Did you contact the company?  Being a lawyer, this is always my first advice for friend and family.  Ask to talk to their director, president or communications team.  If they say its your recipe or copied it from you, you can always ask if they can remove the post.  If they persist, you can always threaten to make a lawsuit if they don't.  Unless they are a big corporation, they also don't have money to waste on useless litigation that could hurt their reputation.

Good luck


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## reinbeau

Posting someone else's work without credit is unethical.  Full stop.


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## Susie

There is right, and there is wrong.  This is wrong.  I don't care what words you use.  

I would, indeed, contact that company, and go up the chain of command until you get to someone who has the ability to make decisions and see them carried out.  You need to, from the first contact with that company start keeping a record of who you talked to with dates and times.  Double check spelling of every name with each person.  It tells them you are writing down the information.  People get nervous when you start doing that.  This is not the first time they have dealt with such situations.

I would probably follow up any phone conversations with a registered letter detailing the conversation.(that you keep a copy of)  But, generally once companies see registered letters, they understand that you are getting evidence.  This has a definite effect on their desire to make something right.


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## JustBeachy

At times it seems like the concept of right and wrong gets shoved into a vision that's just a thousand shades of grey. It's really not that complicated. If you throw out all the legal arguments, all the idea's of happenstance, what's left is the blatantly obvious picture of whats right and what's wrong. . Personally, I try to conduct all my business in a manner I want others to treat me. Naive? Maybe. But I have no problem looking at my self in the mirror, and I sleep like a rock. It's obvious, that's not a attitude that's shared by lots of company's these days. 

I'd follow the advice along the lines of contacting the company. Specifically starting with the person your daughter talked to. Stay civil, but firm. See what they have to say.


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## cmzaha

girlishcharm2004 said:


> Oh, I completely agree. Lying to your neighbor may be perfectly legal, but it's unethical. Likewise, it's illegal in some countries to have more than one child, but it's perfectly ethical to have more kids if one chooses. With such a vast array of opinions and laws, there must be a common ground. But, now we're getting into the realm of "what makes something right?" and "what makes something wrong?"
> 
> I was merely pointing out that not only was it perfectly legal, there was nothing unethical, per se, about said companies actions. Now, honestly, I might be a little upset if someone expanded on an idea I had and did it better than me leaving me in the dust -- I would be upset with myself for not being able to keep up in the competition. However, the fact that the original poster not only has the better product anyway, but also is addressing a different market leaves me even more baffled at the outrage especially when no principles were even broken.
> 
> Anyhow, enough of that. I don't need to beat a dead horse, so to speak, at 3 in the morning. Must get sleep, lest I become irrational if I haven't already.  Good night.


Fortunetly the Guild did agree it was un-ethical and apparently they were to receive a letter from the Guild, which they happen to be big in the Guild. It was also quite a coincidence an order came through our site from a person in the same city for the same products. Could be coincidence but maybe not. You would probably be quite angry if you worked hard to come up with a different soap product just to find a supplier using your product to up their sales. It is never good for a vendor /supplier to compete with their customer. 
My daughter did call them and talk to them and typical for them they just tried to sugar coat it. Yes they would have the money to fight a suit but it is not worth it to us. What small soaper can afford $300+ per hour to fight a suit. I only pick legal fights when I have a good chance of winning.  :grin: just ask a former partner we had in another business...


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## girlishcharm2004

It sounds like you're happy with the outcome.


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## seven

Carolyn, i am glad it all sorted out for you. a few friends of mine local soapers here have chosen not to disclose their ingredients on their website anymore, for this very reason. copying is rampant over here, sometimes i even think it's a culture  i've thought about this, but on the other hand, i also have my customers. it seems that it ain't fair to them not to be able to read as much info as possible about a product.


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## JLeigh

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right (or ethical!). Now if we can just get lawyers to think that way, too! 

Sorry this happened to you, Carolyn. Thanks for sharing your story.


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## REDD

Can you not do some sort of copywriting ? Covering soap, color, scent, name, design, packaging, photo-time, date & location ON, etc ? And the poor music man's way ? Mail yourself 5+ separate envelopes with the above in them -- that stay sealed until a judge/lawyer opens them ? 

I am clueless on this and am just asking...seems something on these lines should be legal enough & cheap enough for the future at least.


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## Cactuslily

Carolyn, I'm really sorry this happened to you and your daughter. My daughter is an artist, and you wouldn't believe the infringement of creative license people with no ethics, no morals and no talent take. The development of the Internet has skyrocketed this issue, and the law isn't as caught up to technology as it needs be. That being said, I find a company that is overly positive regarding negative comments, and ratings patronizing and disingenuous.When things like this happen, I think Karma Karma Karma. You Better Believe I'd think twice on purchasing from them...do you know what I'm saying?  Be Bonded as consumers to take our money elsewhere...right?!


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## cmzaha

REDD said:


> Can you not do some sort of copywriting ? Covering soap, color, scent, name, design, packaging, photo-time, date & location ON, etc ? And the poor music man's way ? Mail yourself 5+ separate envelopes with the above in them -- that stay sealed until a judge/lawyer opens them ?
> 
> I am clueless on this and am just asking...seems something on these lines should be legal enough & cheap enough for the future at least.


We have done this with a couple of items. But lets face it Attorneys are very expensive so copywriting is really only going to scare the little guy. I simply quit purchasing from the company and have the satisfaction that they did not get the recipe to work like ours does. Theirs melts ours does not


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## HappyHomeSoapCo

I can't help but share a similar story.  Lol. I just shared several beer soap pics using brambleberry's hash tag, soap share, received several likes from them, then a day or two later. What'ya know?  A beer soap tutorial video on Instagram.  I thought, how coincidental. Hahaa. Definitely made me question if I would be joining in on any contests again.


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## Rune

I can't imagine it can be legal to copy other people's works of art! Soap is in the category of applied arts, at least there is where it clearly belongs. If it is legal, you definately need some better copyright protection. 

I see you have automatic copyright protection for certain things, like books. Instead of the Guild writing a letter to a copycat and calling what she did unethical and probably forget about it one week later, they should work hard with the government, congress, state or who is in charge to demand they give soapmakers automatic copyright protection of their works.

What, 2015! I did not see it before just now. This thread popped up in the side menu, so I thought it was a new one. Sorry.


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## Relle

Yep, this thread is 4 yrs old and nobody has posted here for that long. It will only popup in the side menu if it has been posted on. Just have a look before you post on the last post in that thread and the date is shown.


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## cmzaha

Rune said:


> I can't imagine it can be legal to copy other people's works of art! Soap is in the category of applied arts, at least there is where it clearly belongs. If it is legal, you definately need some better copyright protection.
> 
> I see you have automatic copyright protection for certain things, like books. Instead of the Guild writing a letter to a copycat and calling what she did unethical and probably forget about it one week later, they should work hard with the government, congress, state or who is in charge to demand they give soapmakers automatic copyright protection of their works.
> 
> What, 2015! I did not see it before just now. This thread popped up in the side menu, so I thought it was a new one. Sorry.


I am still here, but my daughter has since closed her end of the business.


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## Rune

I thought it popped up in the side menu. But when I thought a little bit more about it, I actually had found it when reading some of the other undergroups than what I normally only look at, beginners and lye-based soapmaking forum. I did not add comment when I found out, because I didn't want to revive this thread even more. I should have checked the date, but when I discovered it was too late to delete my post. But now I have learned and hopefully will always check the date.

I'm glad you, Cmzaha, is still around here  And I hope your daughter have not quit making soap after going out of business.


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## Lin19687

maybe LOCK this thread?


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## shunt2011

Lin19687 said:


> maybe LOCK this thread?



Nope . Just don’t post any more.  We aren’t locking thread any longer.


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## Relle

Lin19687 said:


> maybe LOCK this thread?



Just look at the date of the post you are posting under, it's not that hard. As Shari said, no more locking.


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