# Liquid soapmaking is 1000 times harder than I thought, seriously!



## Rune (Jun 28, 2018)

Hi folks! 

I am now making my first ever liquid soap. The paste is now in the bowl covered with a towel. And I'm not lying when I tell you I spent 2,5 hours just to get it to trace! And I'm not lying when I tell you I had so bad separation it would never come together again. Eventually it did. That was what I spent the hours on, making the soap come together again. My poor stickblender, yes, it is a miracle that it survived. I guess they make good stickblenders in Congo, where mine is made. It did heat up so badly it started to smell burnt plastic.

My plan was to make cold processed liquid soap. But it would never trace, and I got impatient, and threw the bowl into the microwave to give it some heat. After that, it started to separate. I have had separation before in hot process, so I knew it was just to stickblend it together again. But not this separation, no! I stickblended as much as I could, threw the bowl in the microwave again, handstirred with a whisk (because I had to give my stickblender some cooling. But really didn't cool). I was almost giving up. At the edge of nervous breakdown, I threw the bowl in the microwave again, and really nuked it like crazy. Not that I did not do that before, but it was more gentle. I tried to stickblend again, and I was so angry I didn't care about burning my stickblender. So I blended like crazy, and suddenly, wow! It looked like trace. Well, looked like, that is not the word. It became a thick pudding that actually hold together. I was no so sure, so I stickblended even more, just to be on the safe side. I do not dare to look under the towel, because I will get crazy if it has separated again.

I think the fault may have been that I used "full water" and 2 percent more (40% of oils). I thought full water would help it to gel at a lower temperature, and hopefully not make the paste too thick and unmanageable. I think I should have done the opposite, used as strong lye solution as possible, perhaps?

My recipe was:

31% (220 g) Flott Matfett (around 65% shea, 25% coconut and the rest rapeseed). I soaped it as palmolein.
31%  ( 220 g) Olive
31%  (220 g) Sunflower (high oleic)
7% (50 g) Castor

136 grams of KOH (calculated with 100% purity since I don't know the actual purity)
283 grams of tap water (but I measured 285)

(I know I probably will have some superfat (and unclear soap, which is okey) since I soaped with 100% purity of KOH. I did not dare to use 90%, since I don't know for sure. I have to mail the company to find out.)

I had no additives. But I added some mica at the end, just because I was tired of waiting for the stickblender to cool off a bit, and needed to do something. Boring color (50/50 Desert sunset and Sparkling gold), so I guess I have to adjust it a bit later. But I will see how it becomes when dilluted.

I will add sodium citrate when dilluting, and will dillute with a heavy sugar syrup (since I don't have preservatives). I don't know if I can make it work dilluting with a very strong syrup, but we will see. I don't know yet how to make an 80% sugar solution either. It will be a shower gel (since I have given up using bar soaps in the shower), and I want it to be thick and concentrated. So I hope a sugar syrup can make it both thick and very bubbly + preserve it. Have anyone used sugar syrup in liquid soap? Is it a bad idea, do you think?
I will also add fragrance oils. And it doesn't really matter what I'm going to add or not. That was not the problem.

I think I'm scared off from making liquid soap ever again. I'm so tired after struggling with this soap for ages. If this is what liquid soapmaking is, well, then. Or did I do something wrong? And what did I eventually do wrong?

I now fully understand why people are using the glycerin method, just sayin.

Yes, I forgot to tell you my temperatures. The fact is that I have noe clue. I did not measure. I melted the hard fat in the oils in the microwave, and it was just a tiny blob unmelted hard fat when I added the lye. I added the lye as soon as it was dissolved. The soap became quite hot, but not so that you could not hold your hands against the bowl. That came later when I desided to heat it in the microwave to speed it up.

Tap water, yes, I must explain that before anyone comments that I must use distilled water. First of all, distilled water is not easily available here. The only thing is so called battery water bought in auto stores. I guess I have to buy battery water next time I plan to make soap.
Second, our tap water is very clean. But of course, it is tap water, and it is coming straight out of a mountain, so it will have some mineral content. It is not hard water, but I don't know if it's soft either. No residue on the sink, neither white or brown. No fluoride or anything.
Third, I am going to add sodium citrate to neutralize the tap water. And I don't add clay or anything full of minerals, other than mica.

Oh boy, this became a long post. To sum up: Is it normal that liquid soaps take 2,5 hours to trace? And is it normal to have so heavy separation that it will hardly ever come together again? If this is the norm, I will have to get an armoured stickblender, and no less.

Now I had the courage to have a look under the towel. I'm amazed, it looks perfectly allright  No separation, and it is slightly translucent. Like if it is gelling. Wow, I'm shocked! I expected another separation. Because this have been a liquid soap nightmare, so I did not have very high hopes for the trace to stay traced. But luckily I was wrong  And I'm so glad I did not add detergent dish soap, as I in desperation thought of doing.

Here is some pictures taken with my ancient Iphone 3. So do not expect HD resolution 












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__ Rune
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__ Rune
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## Rune (Jun 28, 2018)

Maybe slightly harder to add pictures to this forum than to make liquid soap....


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## Saponificarian (Jun 28, 2018)

Ah Rune, I think you should have picked the 90% KOH purity if you wanted to be safe not the 100%. Since you know the composition of the Flott Maftett why not input it in th le calculator. You are likely to be more accurate that way. 

Since you used 31% which is 220g per your recipe

Shea will be 65% of 220g = 143g
Coconut @ 25% will be = 55g
Rapeseed @ 10% will be 22g

I am not a liquid soap expert but I think you need glycerine for the ‘pharmacist method’ you are trying to use but good for you, you just invented a new way of making liquid soap: Serious microwave nuking and burning your stick blender


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## lsg (Jun 28, 2018)

Have you tried the glycerine method?  I think it is much easier and much faster.


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## Rune (Jun 28, 2018)

Yes, I probably should have used 90%. But I was afraid to make lye heavy soap. But I guess all KOH is around 90% pure, or does it vary?

When I calculated the saponification value for Flott Matfett, I experimented with SoapCalc until I got something that had the same fatty acid profile as the company had given me on mail. But to get it to match up, I had to add stearic acid, palmitic acid and other fatty acids. It did never match with only shea, coconut and rapeseed. I also used the wrong one, I should have used canola, and not rapeseed, since canola and unrefined canola/rapeseed are two different plants. The rapeseed we have here is the same plant as canola. And I suspect the coconut and rapeseed are hydrolyzed as well.

Anyway, when I had the saponification number, I tried to find a matching oil on SoapCalc, just to make it easy. Palmolein did match perfectly. So I just use that to make it easy. But I did once put in the tree oils plus all the extra fatty acids in SoapCalc, so that I could see the bubbly value, hardness etc.

Glycerine, yes, of course! Thank you. That is exactly what I will need to dillute it with. I will order some glycerine. 

I think I maybe soaped way too cold to begin with. Next time will be in a crockpot, and not anymore cold process liquid soap attempt. I did not use my crockpot now, because I didn't make a very big batch. I was afraid it would be too little for the crockpot, and splatter all over when stickblending. But next time, I will add KOH to hot water, and prehea the oils to 240 degrees fahrenheit or more. Plus have some alcohol on hand to add when it separates. And maybe buy the worst ever fragrance oil, one that seizes immediately.

I hope my stickblender is not too harmed, actually. It is a very powerful one (and very noisy), but power did not help today. I could not use it on maximum speed, because then it would splatter all over, unfortunately. I think it is 800 watt, so it is quite powerful. I hope to be able to use it again. I did find out that it does not automatically shuts off when overheated. I actually thought it should catch fire, so I ran outdoors with it. I took it out of the socket, and had it sitting to cool down. But it did not cool at all, just got even warmer, and warmer. So warm that it almost burned my hands when touching it. So I thought it was safer with to have a fire outdoors than indoors. And then the soap separated even worse (as if that was possible), so I had to carry in again the baking hot stickblender. Liquid soap is adrenaline rush


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## Rune (Jun 28, 2018)

lsg said:


> Have you tried the glycerine method?  I think it is much easier and much faster.



No, because I have no glycerine, but I will order some. I have watched tons of Youtube videos on liquid soapmaking, but almost everybody uses the crockpot. Some use the glycerin method, others don't. I knew it would take much longer without glycerin. But that it would take soooo long and separate sooo bad, no I had no clue. I thought I just had to stickblend it for around 10 minutes extra without the glycerine. But I will not make any liquid soap again until I have glycerin on hand, that's for sure.


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## Rune (Jun 28, 2018)

Well, but it became soap in the end  I was seriously thinking of throwing away the soap, and more than once. But at the last try, magic happened. I had actually decided to throw it if still separated on me after the last desperate try. Luckily it did not end up in the garbage. But it was very close.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 28, 2018)

When making liquid soap paste with just water, it is helpful to heat the soap batter to about 180 F (82 C) to start with. That works pretty well for me. The batches I've made without glycerin come to trace in 15-30 minutes if heated to 180 F to start. Batches with part glycerin, part water come to trace in 10-20 minutes just relying on the glycerin to accelerate the reaction. The benefit of using glycerin to make LS is small, IMO, especially since glycerin cuts the lather somewhat and adds to the expense of making the soap. The main benefit of using glycerin comes if you cannot heat the soap batter.

LS batter does _not _have to be mixed continuously. Just stick blend or whisk the batter for 10-20 seconds at a time and do this every 5-10 minutes until the soap batter thickens up. Yes, it's going to separate when you're not mixing, but don't worry about that. Just bring it back to a well-mixed state every 5-10 minutes and let it do its thing in between times. You really, really don't have to hover and it's really not necessary to feel desperate. 

_"...Have anyone used sugar syrup in liquid soap? Is it a bad idea, do you think?..."_

Yes, it's a bad idea. Just use distilled or reverse osmosis water to dilute.


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## msunnerstood (Jun 28, 2018)

lsg said:


> Have you tried the glycerine method?  I think it is much easier and much faster.


I second ths, I aways go at least half glycerin


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 29, 2018)

Rune said:


> I spent 2,5 hours just to get it to trace!


LS high in liquid oils (75% in this case) takes “forever” to trace. The first time I made 100% olive oil it took me 10 hours! So I can honestly say, I feel your pain! 


Rune said:


> I had so bad separation it would never come together again.


CP LS is not like CP hard bars. It’s important to keep the batch warm while bringing it to trace. Maintain temp at 160°F (71°C) + until trace occurs.


Rune said:


> My poor stickblender, ...It did heat up so badly it started to smell burnt plastic.


As DeeAnna said, it’s best to SB on and off while bring to trace to keep from burning out the motor. The batch will continue to do it’s thing between times. Also, if using glycerin in place of water, the batch is so hot that it can literally melt your plastic stick blender. Better switch to one with a stainless steel shaft.


Rune said:


> I got impatient, and threw the bowl into the microwave to give it some heat. (1) ...threw the bowl in the microwave again, (2) ...I threw the bowl in the microwave again, (3) ...So I blended like crazy, and suddenly, wow! It looked like trace.


Excellent! Good thinking! I’m currently experimenting with processing in the microwave. It takes 3-4 Nukes, with 5-minute to 1-hour rest periods in between to get to where it doesn’t separate any more. I leave it in the MW overnight and it tests neutral in the morning... ready for dilution.


Rune said:


> It became a thick pudding that actually hold together.


This is due to the high amount of shea butter (20% according to my calculation). That’s what makes the batch opaque and pudding-like instead of clear.


Rune said:


> I think the fault may have been that I used "full water" and 2 percent more (40% of oils). ... I think I should have done the opposite, used as strong lye solution as possible, perhaps?


Use the “Water to Lye” button (on SoapCalc) to figure the amount of water needed. Your KOH amount is correct for this batch. Type in 3:1 (water to KOH) for normal batches; 2:1 for faster trace. NOTE If you use 2:1 be sure to keep an eye on it. If it starts to bloat up, quickly set it in the sink and stir it down. (I set it into a bowl to catch any spill over.) Lye needs oxygen from the water to do its thing. If there’s not enough water, the lye grabs oxygen from the air and that causes the batch to start rising out of the pot.


Rune said:


> I added some mica at the end.


Not good. Liquid colorants work best -- you can even use food coloring -- add after dilution.


Rune said:


> I will add sodium citrate when dilluting,


Add AFTER dilution, at the end or after 2 week sequester, or not at all. It’s not necessary.


Rune said:


> ...and will dillute with a heavy sugar syrup Have anyone used sugar syrup in liquid soap? Is it a bad idea, do you think?


Yes, as DeeAnna said, it’s a bad idea because it’s an invitation to bacteria/fungus to come and play in your LS. If you want to thicken it, try a simple salt brine. If you want to try adding sugar to a future batch, I've never done it, but I would add it to the lye solution ... and hope for the best! 


Rune said:


> ... I forgot to tell you my temperatures. The fact is that I have noe clue.


To get to trace in the least amount of time, combine when oils are 160°F (71°C) and lye solution is 140°F (60°C). Stir by hand, then SB (on and off) to trace 10 - 15 minutes, over low to medium-low heat. Maintain temp at 160°F (71°C) until trace occurs. (Nuke in the MW if you need to.)


Rune said:


> Tap water, yes, ... our tap water is very clean.


I use tap water to make soap also. We are fortunate to have water supplied from the mountains as well.


Rune said:


> Now I had the courage to have a look under the towel. I'm amazed, it looks perfectly allright  No separation, and it is slightly translucent. Like if it is gelling. Wow, I'm shocked!


You did good.  I would keep the batch covered for a week or two to fully saponify before diluting.

NOTE: The first rule of soaping is “PATIENCE”. The second rule is “DON’T PANIC”. You didn’t panic and you used your soaper’s knowledge and experience to muddle on through to a successful conclusion. You should be very proud of yourself.


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## Rune (Jun 29, 2018)

Wow! Thank you all, and a special thank to DeeAnna and Zany_in_CO!  Now I know exactly what to do next time. And I know exactly what I did wrong this time. I really appreciate your answers.

But now I encountered another problem. I was thinking that liquid soap definately would need a preservative. So I am looking here and there for a place to buy some, and research what to buy. Not very easy, since those who sell preservatives very often does not include the most important information - the PH range. But well, I think phenoxyethanol and ethylhexylglycerin could be a great alternative (Plantaserve E and other names). I had decided to buy that one, and was looking for a shop with an affordable shipping cost, so I typed something in Google, and there Brambleberry's TV-shop hostess, the Soap Queen popped up. I had a look at the article Talk It Out Tuesday: Preservatives. She writes a lot of blabla, and then:

"Preservatives aren’t generally necessary in liquid soaps, but can be added if desired." 
"Liquid soap does not need a preservative either but it doesn’t hurt to add a little just to be extra careful.".

Hmm, I'm confused. If she is right, why does not liquid soap need a preservative while everything else with water will need one? She does recommend preservatives for salt and sugar scrubs, because they can come in contact with water in the shower. Liquid soap has a lot of water added, so why can it be preservative-free?

I personally think she is wrong, that water containing products need a preservative if they are not preserved otherwise, for example with acids, very high amount of salt or sugar or something else that reduces the water activity to such a low level that microbes and mold can not grow. But since liquid soaps most often are made and dilluted with distilled water, maybe that will make the product sterile enough? I did not use distilled water, so I guess I will need preservatives anyway.

What do you people do? Do you add preservatives or not to liquid soaps?

I see that many stores their soap paste, and dillute as they need. Well, that would eliminate the need for a preservative if the soap will be used up in a short time. I have thought of dilluting all at once and store the finished and bottled soaps in the freezer, and grab a bottle when needed. I don't know if that will work. I guess the easiest is to just add a preservative, so that is what I will do. But I wonder why Soap Queen does not try to push preservatives on liquid soapmakers? She usually sees the need for everything else, UV inhibitors and what not that Brambleberry sells.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 29, 2018)

Liquid soap does not necessarily need a separate preservative because the alkaline pH of the soap itself is the preservative. Almost every other product that contains fat and water (lotions, for example) will have a slightly alkaline to slightly acidic pH -- nowhere near as high a pH as liquid soap. There's the difference.

There's another issue to keep in mind, however. If you want to make liquid soap with anything other than fats, water, glycerin, and alkali -- if you decide you must pack the soap with goodies like milk, aloe, sugar, or other carbohydrate-containing ingredients -- then you cannot expect high pH alone to properly preserve the product.

The only preservatives that I know of that are functional in the high pH of liquid soap are Suttocide and Glydant Plus. Liquid Germall Plus has an off-label reputation for also working at higher pH. This is a reputable source to consult: http://makingskincare.com/preservatives/

Yes, I add preservative to _diluted _liquid soap. Personal preference only -- it doesn't greatly bother me that others choose to not use preservative if I know they are also sensible about the ingredients in their soap. Like so much of life, it's all about context.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 29, 2018)

Rune said:


> ... why does not liquid soap need a preservative while everything else with water will need one? ... Liquid soap has a lot of water added, so why can it be preservative-free?


Good question! The answer: It's all about the pH of the product:

Products that have a pH of 7 or below are *acidic* and require a preservative.
Products that have a pH above 7.5 are *alkaline* and do not require a preservative because bacteria can not survive an alkaline environment. Handmade soap, both hard bars and liquid soap fall in the range of pH  8.5 to pH 11 so a  preservative is not required.
NOTE: While there are many options for preserving lotions, creams, and other water & oil products, there is no preservative specifically designed for liquid soap simply because it isn't necessary. There are, however, essential oils and other additives like rosin that have preservative qualities which can be added.
You can also use antioxidants like ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) that serve to extend the shelf life of oils used in liquid soap.


Rune said:


> What do you people do? Do you add preservatives or not to liquid soaps?


I do not add preservative to liquid soap, for three reasons -- (1) It isn't necessary. (2) Preservatives are expensive. (3) **Some preservatives may do more harm than good over time.* (Note to wardbond -- I need to note a source for that info... as soon as I can get to it. )


Rune said:


> I see that many stores their soap paste, and dillute as they need. Well, that would eliminate the need for a preservative if the soap will be used up in a short time. I have thought of dilluting all at once and store the finished and bottled soaps in the freezer


Actually, my guess is that it takes far less storage space for the paste vs the diluted LS. I dilute my paste all at once and bottle it up in 8 oz. containers for storage and easy access as needed or gallon jugs for laundry soap. I've done this for over 13 years. No problem. 

*ETA:* * Liquid Soapers Yahoo Group has a gadzillion posts on using preservatives in LS -- both Pro and Con. If interested, join the group and search "preservatives". I spent an hour last night looking for the source for the info in *BOLD* above. I found this -- so I'm getting close. 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/liquidsoapers/conversations/messages/14150


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## Rune (Jun 29, 2018)

Thank you both, again!  PH, yes, well, I should have wrote that I had read that only a PH of 10 or over would preserve a product. And liquid soap has under 10. So that's why I didn't understand why it could be without preservatives and contain lots of water. But I forgot to mention it, and I can't find where I read it. I have a log on the computer as big as a the Bible itself.

But now I know that the PH of liquid soap is harsh enough for anything to grow out of proportions.

Context, yes, that is something I have thought of many times when I see on Youtube people making sugar scrubs, salt scrubs, emulsifed scrubs or other similar products. The stress that the product _must_ have a preservative because water will enter the container (usually a big jar ment for the shower).  And I think - why are nobody thinking of changing the container itself? 

I'm sure there are lots of containers out there that does not allow people to dig in with dripping wet fingers.


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## Rune (Jun 29, 2018)

I learn a lot, thanks to you guys on this forum. I thought the reason behind that bar soaps can be without preservatives, were the low content of water, and that it had nothing to do with PH. And actually it is the PH that is the main preservative for bar soaps.


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## Rune (Jun 29, 2018)

Thank you for the link to Making Skincare, DeeAnna


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## Rune (Jun 29, 2018)

Well, and that is actually the place where I read before about PH 10 and above. So now that is solved


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## DeeAnna (Jun 29, 2018)

_"...Products that have a pH above 7.5 are *alkaline* and do not require a preservative..."_

This is incorrect. Alkaline products can and most certainly do support the growth of bacteria, fungi, and other microorganisms. Here's a pertinent quote from the Making Skincare article I cited above:

"...The finished pH of the product will have a major impact on the efficacy of the preservative. Bacteria thrive in the pH range of 5.5 to 8.5, the typical pH range for bacterial growth is pH 4 to 9. Yeasts and filamentous fungi prefer the pH range 4-6 but growth generally occurs within a range of pH 3 to 10. Microorganisms present in manufacturing environments are often acclimated to thrive beyond these limits of pH. In fact, environmentally isolated microbes have been known to persist within a pH range of 2.5 to 10.5. Use a good antifungal preservative at a low pH or a good antibacterial preservative at a high pH may provide a better broad spectrum preservation. If the pH is high enough, for example, over pH 10, a preservative may not be needed...."


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 30, 2018)

Rune said:


> ...actually it is the PH that is the main preservative for bar soaps.


pH is also the reason liquid soap requires no preservative. If your LS has pH 11 you are safe for sure, and your LS is NOT harsh, depending on oils/fats used and proper saponification method, of course. As long as it is fully saponified and there are no "loose" oils floating around due to superfatting it, you're safe.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 30, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...Products that have a pH above 7.5 are *alkaline* and do not require a preservative..."_
> 
> This is incorrect. Alkaline products can and most certainly do support the growth of bacteria, fungi, and other microorganisms. ... If the pH is high enough, for example, over pH 10, a preservative may not be needed...."


Thank you Dee Anna. I stand corrected.  

The only problem that remains is whether or not that info applies to water-in-oil or oil-in-water products only, and not specifically to liquid soap. ??? Not to be argumentative, not at all, but when I have time I hope to do a little more digging to see what I can come up that's specific to LS. 

Until then, I hope we can agree that whether or not to use a preservative in LS is a matter of personal preference. I don't yet have the science to back it up, only anecdotal evidence and the fact that the top commercial liquid soaps, so-called "all natural", and others, contain no preservative. There's also my personal fear that some preservatives are "formaldehyde releasers"  over time which can result in a "toxic" product long after it's manufactured


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## Rune (Jun 30, 2018)

I don't think it will be as high as 11 when dilluted. I made a clarity test, which of course did not come out clear because of the mica I added (and maybe also because of unsaponifiables and superfatting). I did test the PH with PH-strips. I had dilluted way more than 50/50 soap paste and water (which I understand is the proper way of PH-testing), and the PH were 8,5 approximately. I did a zap test as well, and no zapping. The soap had loosened up quite a lot, and was way more translucent. I think it is done. But I will give it two days more before I dillute.

I will test the PH after dillution. I have no clue how things work in liquid soap, but the rotting/sequestering time, wouldn't that make the PH drop further down, like it drops when curing bar soaps? 

I will test the soap paste right now (without dilluting 50/50 because it is not easy to dillute, and I don't have an accurate enough scale).

Result: I did not manage to PH test the soap paste. It was too thick, didn't soak into the paper. I took some paste in my hand and washed with as little water as possible. But I had to make it thinner. I tested and it was around 8,5 again. But my PH paper is not of the fancy kind with 4 dots that should match up. It is just yellow paper strips. I know that it is not the most accurate. But if the test is somewhat accurate, it looks far from PH 10 and 11. 

I have decided to use preservatives. It feels too risky not using anything. Especially since my "production facilities" aka the ordinary kitchen in an ordinary house, is not a sterile place, and will never be. And I know for sure that tap water definately contains bacterias, perhaps mould and yeast too, plus minerals important for building cell membranes of bacterias. So for this batch, I definately will need a preservative. Later I can go for distilled water, but I will preserve anyway. Maybe not use the max amount, but enough to kill off unwanted stuff that can grow into invisible dangers.

The scary thing is that products with dangerous amounts of dangerous bacterias don't show any sign of anything until the very last stages. No smell and no visible changes. So it's impossible to tell if a product is totally fine or very hazardous, without access to a microscope or other equipment. I will definately preserve, yes.

But I will not preserve sugar scrubs (which I have promised my sister to make for her), I will choose a container that eliminates the need for preservatives. Since I have soap paste, it will be a foaming sugar scrub 

The commercial ones can have hidden preservatives. For example a preservative that also is a fragrance. Or adjusted the PH upwards, or something.

Isn't soap alkali salts of fatty acids? Salt, maybe that is the secret?



Zany_in_CO said:


> but when I have time I hope to do a little more digging to see what I can come up that's specific to LS.



Let me know if you find something interesting


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## DeeAnna (Jun 30, 2018)

_"...I hope we can agree that whether or not to use a preservative in LS is a matter of personal preference...."_

Did you read my Post #12? Last paragraph? I thought that made my point of view pretty clear, Zany. I know there's a lot of controversy about this issue.

If people aren't loading their LS with bug food, I think preservative is an optional thing even if the pH isn't quite as high as the Making Skincare article recommends. If someone feels the need to add goat milk, aloe, tea, or other stuff and doesn't want to use a preservative, I'd not touch their LS with a 10 foot pole, much less wash with it. I'm far less concerned about a trace amount of formaldehyde (check out the formaldehyde content in apples sometime!) than I am about washing with soap that contains a high % of microbes.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 1, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> Post #12 ...Yes, I add preservative to _diluted _liquid soap. Personal preference only -- it doesn't greatly bother me that others choose to not use preservative if I know they are also sensible about the ingredients in their soap.



Good. We agree then. Let's leave it there for now.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 1, 2018)

Again, it was your sweeping blanket statement which is the issue. "Liquid soap is alkaline and therefore it doesn't need a preservative" or something along those lines. But that is not strictly true, as DeeAnna says you can add all sorts of stuff to your liquid soap which means it can still develop nasties even in the high pH environment. 

When things are nuanced, making statements which suggest it is black and white is irresponsible at best and not something a soaper with so much experience should engage in.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 1, 2018)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Good. We agree then. Let's leave it there for now.



I'm perfectly willing to "leave it there" permanently. It sounds like you think I want to argue about this, and I don't. I don't recall that I've _ever _tried to make people feel they must always add preservative to diluted liquid soap. I do question people, however, when they want to load their LS up with bug food and then blindly expect the high pH alone to preserve it.


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## Rune (Jul 1, 2018)

I ordered Plantaserve E (mix of phenoxyethanol and ethylhexylglycerin). Those you, DeeAnna recommended, are not widely available here. I could only find Suttocide, but I don't want to risk my soaps turning pink because of interaction with citrus essential oils, so I left that one behind. The fragrance oils I have a bunch of, more or less all of them contains citrus top notes, to my frustration. Essential oils or synthetic or both, I have no idea.

The solubility of preservatives are not the easiest to find. It should be, but it isn't. Some say water, some say oil and others say glycol. So I bought Polysorbate 20, just to be sure I can use the preservative both in oil and water. I think that is how Polysorbate 20 works. We will see. I will anyway use it to mix some water in the body butter I will make for my two sisters, to lighten it up a notch.

I guess it should be quite easy to find out if dilluted liquid soap with a PH under 10 and without bugfood will need a preservative or not. I understand that in the EU, those who sell liquid soaps have to have a PET test done (preservative efficacy test). Such tests are done with the preserved product and an unpreserved sample. If it is possible to get hold on some test reports, it should be possible to find out how unpreserved liquid soaps performs. If the added bacterias, mold and yeast spread like crazy, then we know for sure that a preservative is needed. If not, well, then it is unnecessary.

I found an unpreserved liquid castile soap base in the UK, but also found out that the PH was 10,9. I have not researched any further, I just stumbled upon it.


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## Rune (Jul 13, 2018)

So, now my liquid soap is done and all bottled up. My preservative came yesterday, so that's why it took so long.

Everything went smooth and the soap looks beautiful and smells fantastic! NOOO!!! I am soooo angry right now. I were more angry yesterday. The soap is totally ruined, more or less.

So, what happened? Everything went smooth until I added the fragrance mixed with polysorbate 20. The soap looked stunning, golden (from the gold mica). It did have a strange off-smell, like toasted seeds/nuts. I have to find out where that smell comes from. The soap paste itself had it, and it didn't get worse by dillution, but not better either. I dilluted in the crockpot for several hours.

I think the off-smell can either come from one of the oils (I will test them one by one on my hands and see if I can smell anything), or from the making of the soap paste. Maybe I burned some of the soap while microwaving it? 

I have a bunch of fragrance oils from Eroma in Australia. Produced by Luxaroma. I tested some of them to find out what I would use in my soap. I took cotton pads and put in small plastic things with a lid, so that I could get a feel of what they would smell like. 

I thought I would have something with oud/agarwood. Because the soap was golden, and that would fit perfectly. I had bought all the scents that Eroma had with oud in them. Those I tested smelled nothing like oud at all. So I was disappointed. I had a coffee soap from Yves Rocher that I liked a lot. So I decided to use my coffee fragrance oil. It did smell nice from the cotton pad. I mixed the fragrance 50/50 with polysorbate 20, and dumped it in the soap. It became totally cloudy and went back to a very dull color (that the soap paste had), not the golden glory from the dilluted soap. And the scent, oh lord! It smelled horrible! I got panic, and thought, I have to save it somewhat. I figured out that I would need something sweet. I found a fragrance oil called Italian spiced chocolated. I dumped some of that in, without smelling it first. It got ten times worse than it was. 

I was so angry, and did regret that I did not use the fragrance oil called Petra, which is an amazing scent. I did regret putting polysorbate 20 in the fragrance oil. I knew the soap was ruined, but had no idea what to do. It was late night, so I just went to bed.
I was thinking of cooking the fragrance out and add something else. But I thought it maybe would not disappear completely. So I bottled it up. The nutty off-smell is still there. Maybe the coffee fragrance would have been nice if the soap itself was without any off-smell, I don't know. The scent is also too strong. I used a fragrance calculator and fragranced it between light scent and moderate scent. Tested, and it had no scent at all. Maybe I had sniffed so many fragrance oils that I could not smell a fainter scent? Or maybe it had to spread in the soap for some time? I dumped in some more coffee, and I could now smell it, but did not like it. Dumped in the chocolate, and it became all together too much.

I will have another try at making liquid soap. And hopefully learn from my mistakes this time. The polysorbate 20 will now be stucked as far away as possible. And I will dillute a little bit of fragrance oil in a little bit of dilluted soap, to test how it fill be in the final product, before I dump it in the whole batch.

I tested the castor oil, the sunflower oil and the olive oil that I used. Non of them really did have that nutty scent. But it might come from the olive oil, since it is refined mixed with extra virgin. It does have a scent on its own, so that might have morphed during heating or in contact with lye or something. I must test the Flott Matfett with shea as well. I will not use that for my next soap. It will be a very simple one with only high-oleic sunflower or olive oil, coconut oil and castor oil. Nothing more.

There is one positive thing, though. I did manage to get the consistency of the soap just perfect. It was dilluted with 1.5 times as much water as soap paste. And I took off some undilluted soap and dilluted it on its own, before I poured it into the crockpot again. I turned off the crockpot, and by next morning, everything was perfectly dilluted and fairly thick.

I'm actually most angry at my scents. I did not test them when I bought them. I have oud perfume oils, several of them, so I sort of know what it is supposed to smell like. My oud fragrance oils does not smell like oud. Non of those I tested had an arabic perfume vibe to them, even if they had names like "Oud, amber and musk", a classic combination in arabic perfumery. So I am disappointed. What do the oud fragrances smell like? I don't know. The oriental vibe is missing. It is more fresh and "western". It does not have the depth I'm used to from my perfume oils. I tried to really sniff them, to see if I could pick up some oud, at least, but no. I have some more of them to try, so I hope at least one will have an oud scent.


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## IrishLass (Jul 13, 2018)

I find that my handmade, unscented liquid soap, whether in paste form or diluted form, has a scent of its own.....and it's pretty much the same kind of scent no matter which formula I may have used. It's hard to describe it, but it's not unpleasant.....just very distinctive. 

When testing fragrances in your liquid soap, instead of adding the scent to the whole batch, just remove a small 1 ounce portion of the diluted soap and add an appropriately scaled amount of scent to it to see how it fares before deciding whether or not to add it to the whole batch.


IrishLass


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## Rune (Jul 13, 2018)

Thank you 

Yes, I will definately do that next time, and not ruin my whole batch. The good thing is that I have learned - the hard way.

I sniffed my cotton pads just now, to see if they had changed since yesterday. Or if I would like them better. Out of 6 samples, I really, really like 1 of them. I did not mark them, just put the bottle in the back of every sample. But I removed the bottles yesterday, so I'm not sure, but I think it is Black musk and pear. In another, I can smell some oud-ish notes (which I think was not there yesterday). And it is quite pleasant. The third is also a fresh type of thing, and I don't know which scent it is. I will find out when I need to find out, because I have only opened the seals of the bottles I tested, the rest are sealed. So I like 3 out of 6 tested.

One of those I didn't like have a sharp scent. I'm quite sure it is Antique sandalwood. It does not smell like sandalwood at all, more like cedarwood-ish. But I think that scent might work in cold or hot processed soap, since the long cure time might evaporate some or all of the sharpness, and change it into a pleasant woody scent. I bought it because it was on sale, and I know I looove sandalwood. Little did I know that it had a scent like cheap toilet air freshener. But I can't judge it just based on consentrated scents on cotton pads. I think I will make a batch of simple cold processed soap with the cheapest oils, split it up in several plastic cups and add different scents to each, then mold it, mark it and let it cure, for then to find out what scents I like or dislike.

Now I have to find out how to make a car freshener. I want to make one with a scent I absolutely love, which is called Petra (from Petra in the desert of Jordan). It smells expensive and very pleasant. And I just now found out it is a dupe of some perfume. And the scent is actually called Petra type. Well, well, I don't like too much that fragrance companies copies perfumes. It might be legal, but I don't think it is very fair. Instead they should hire someone to create unique scents for them, instead of copying others. But I guess they are pushed agains copying because of customers demanding dupes of this and that perfumes and everything from Lush especially.


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## Susie (Jul 15, 2018)

You can buy the air freshener paper products many places.  Here is one:  http://www.candlesandsupplies.net/Air-Fresheners/Air-Freshener-Paper?CAPCID={CREATIVE}&msclkid=a3b21a9415bd17dc03ae41df64c6f120&CA_6C15C=1073996918


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## Diana Smith (Jul 15, 2018)

Concerning LS I was wondering as a new to LS soapmaking. I have a natural dead lake about 40 miles from my house plus a mile hike up a hill. The water within it is naturally acidic that nothing other than leeches, bullfrogs, bugs, and a few plants can survive in there. Fish and most plants just plain die. Soap's most neutral pH is a 7.0, skin is around 4.5 - 5.0. What if I bottled say a few gallons of water from this lake, stuffed them in my backpack and hiked it down the hill and used the water to make a more acidic LS? Would this work or would it cause problems with saponification? Could I use it after saponification to drop the pH to say 6.5 making it a more body friendly soap?


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## NsMar42111 (Jul 15, 2018)

As Irishlass said, liquid soap has its own odor. I've asked around because I thought it was just me and nope, it does. I can't quite get over it myself. Testing in CP soap isn't going to tell you how it'll smell in liquid soap , two different animals. 

What I did for scent testing in liquid soap is pick up a bunch of empty "travel kits" from the $1 store- 3 bottles and lids for $1. I added an ounce of liquid soap (diluted with Poly 20 added to the whole batch [instead of bottle by bottle]). Then I figured out the FO amount. I started with  .5 oz  per pound of diluted soap, divided by 16 (because 16 oz in a pound, and I was doing 1 oz). That equals 0.03125of an oz of FO per bottle. Convert that to milliliters, 0.924171875 Milliliters. Considering my pipette is tricky to read, I converted to drops....14.2499927 Drops. No, it's not 100% accurate but for testing purposes it works. So I added 14 drops of FO to each bottle, and shook the heck out of them. Then I let them set for a week. A few immediatly showed issues like thickening or thinning the batch. I had some that morphed into something awful, some that didn't cover the "base" smell at all, and some that were ok. The weak ones I added 7 more drops (to get .75 oz pps) and then upped it to 7 more on that (so 28 total).


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## shunt2011 (Jul 16, 2018)

Diana Smith said:


> Concerning LS I was wondering as a new to LS soapmaking. I have a natural dead lake about 40 miles from my house plus a mile hike up a hill. The water within it is naturally acidic that nothing other than leeches, bullfrogs, bugs, and a few plants can survive in there. Fish and most plants just plain die. Soap's most neutral pH is a 7.0, skin is around 4.5 - 5.0. What if I bottled say a few gallons of water from this lake, stuffed them in my backpack and hiked it down the hill and used the water to make a more acidic LS? Would this work or would it cause problems with saponification? Could I use it after saponification to drop the pH to say 6.5 making it a more body friendly soap?



Nope, soap is naturally 8-10.5 PH.  Dropping it lower will cause separation and won't be soap.


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## IrishLass (Jul 16, 2018)

Ditto what Shari said^^^. Lye-based soap (whether liquid or solid) will always measure on the alkaline side of the pH scale, because by definition, soap is an "alkaline salt of a fatty acid". If its pH got as low as 7 (neutral), it would separate and lose its ability to clean (i.e., cease to be soap).


IrishLass


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