# Coffee Fragrance Query



## AndyRoo (Jul 8, 2020)

Hi all,

So, I have my lovely batter which gives me a lovely long working time. Until it meets coffee fragrance, it seems.

I added the fragrance just before light trace and blended for another 15 seconds, maybe. Before I knew it, the batter had seized and I was digging it out of the mixing bowl by hand, cursing the gods and the makers of that fragrance.

Is coffee fragrance oil known for doing this? If so, is there a way to help prevent this? I used strong black coffee to replace the water content, but I wasn't convinced the scent was enough to give a decent fragrance in the finished soap - hence the addition of the oil too.

Any ideas? If coffee fragrance isn't known for acceleration, is there something else it could be?

Help please!
Andy


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## dixiedragon (Jul 8, 2020)

Recipe? And a link to the FO?
Are you sure it is soap safe? Is it from a soap-specific supplier. I've stopped buying FOs from vendors focusing on candles, just bc I had too many duds. I buy from vendors who focus on soap and B&B products.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 8, 2020)

I concur with dixiedragon.  It's likely not made for soapmaking.   I've used a couple coffee fragrances for CP soap and not had an issue other than not liking the fragrance.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 8, 2020)

dixiedragon said:


> Recipe? And a link to the FO?
> Are you sure it is soap safe? Is it from a soap-specific supplier. I've stopped buying FOs from vendors focusing on candles, just bc I had too many duds. I buy from vendors who focus on soap and B&B products.



See the pic for the recipe I use. The fragrance comes from a soap making supplier: Coffee Fragrance Oil

Maybe I just need to stick to scenting it naturally with actual coffee. :/



shunt2011 said:


> I concur with dixiedragon.  It's likely not made for soapmaking.   I've used a couple coffee fragrances for CP soap and not had an issue other than not liking the fragrance.



It comes from a soap making supplier and is listed as for use in soaps. I think it's quite vanilla heavy, but I've used vanilla fragrance before without any issues. :/

Maybe I just over blended - but it really, really seized up. Like 0 to 60 in a few seconds!


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## shunt2011 (Jul 8, 2020)

Is it listed for CP/Hp and not just MP.  It may just be a mover.


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## penelopejane (Jul 8, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> See the pic for the recipe I use. The fragrance comes from a soap making supplier: Coffee Fragrance Oil
> 
> Maybe I just need to stick to scenting it naturally with actual coffee. :/


Natural coffee smell won’t stick. I suggest buying from a different supplier and check reviews. 
If you still Have some left you can add it to the oils, knowing it’s going to move and try just hand blending to see if that’s enough to get to trace. Or do only one second of SB at a time then hand blend and see how it goes.

Or you can SB to emulsion, then add the FO knowing it’s going to accelerate, hand blend thoroughly and pour.

I avoid accelerators because life is too short for panic but that is just me.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 8, 2020)

penelopejane said:


> Natural coffee smell won’t stick. I suggest buying from a different supplier and check reviews.
> If you still Have some left you can add it to the oils, knowing it’s going to move and try just hand blending to see if that’s enough to get to trace. Or do only one second of SB at a time then hand blend and see how it goes.
> 
> Or you can SB to emulsion, then add the FO knowing it’s going to accelerate, hand blend thoroughly and pour.
> ...



Maybe I'll contact the supplier and check with them. Usually they mark soaps as M&P only if they're not compatible.

Perhaps I'll just have to do what you said, try blending it into the oils and only working the batter lightly until a very light trace and see what happens. It didn't just thicken, though - it quite literally went solid and I had to dig it out of the container with my hand! :/

It's a pain in the neck because I was planning on doing a swirl and frosting to make it look like a latte. Good luck making that happen.


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## penelopejane (Jul 8, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Maybe I'll contact the supplier and check with them. Usually they mark soaps as M&P only if they're not compatible.
> 
> Perhaps I'll just have to do what you said, try blending it into the oils and only working the batter lightly until a very light trace and see what happens. It didn't just thicken, though - it quite literally went solid and I had to dig it out of the container with my hand! :/
> 
> It's a pain in the neck because I was planning on doing a swirl and frosting to make it look like a latte. Good luck making that happen.


@shunt2011 will probably tell you where she gets her coffee FO. 

I’ve never had much luck getting info out of FO suppliers about FOs. Best to read reviews and the FO review chart that we have here on the forum. Honest reviews by people you know.

You did SB last time, though. Next time, to use this FO up, hand blend and wait a bit and see how it goes. Time makes a difference to trace. Maybe try dividing the mix and having one colour without FO just to add interest. Pour this in as an in the pot swirl the minute the main mix heads towards trace.  

Then buy a safe FO that doesn’t accelerate.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 8, 2020)

I would tell you but I can’t remember where I got them.  I purchased two and didn’t care for them but it’s been quite some time and I gave them away to a candle maker.  As PJ mentioned look for reviews.


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## penelopejane (Jul 9, 2020)

shunt2011 said:


> I would tell you but I can’t remember where I got them.  I purchased two and didn’t care for them but it’s been quite some time and I gave them away to a candle maker.  As PJ mentioned look for reviews.


I went to a lot of trouble to perfect a coffee bar with more than 10 attempts and then realised I don’t like brown soap!


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## TheGecko (Jul 9, 2020)

Coffee House from Rustic Essentials and Chocolate Espresso from BrambleBerry...two of my favorites.  They will discolor.  I add a little bit of dry Brown Oxide to the Coffee House...gives it a bit of speckle.  I had Hershey’s Cocoa to the Chocolate Espresso to give it a richer Brown.  The Chocolate Espresso is a huge seller for me...I can’t keep it in stock.


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## KiwiMoose (Jul 9, 2020)

I always read the hints on soap performance on the supplier's website, and if there are none, I read the reviews.  If there are no reviews either - I tend not to buy.  I don't like taking the risk - especially when I have a thousand other FOs here I already need to use up.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> Coffee House from Rustic Essentials and Chocolate Espresso from BrambleBerry...two of my favorites.  They will discolor.  I add a little bit of dry Brown Oxide to the Coffee House...gives it a bit of speckle.  I had Hershey’s Cocoa to the Chocolate Espresso to give it a richer Brown.  The Chocolate Espresso is a huge seller for me...I can’t keep it in stock.



I live in the UK, and I don't think either of those have UK stores. Importing them would cost more than it'd be worth to make them sadly.



penelopejane said:


> @shunt2011 will probably tell you where she gets her coffee FO.
> 
> I’ve never had much luck getting info out of FO suppliers about FOs. Best to read reviews and the FO review chart that we have here on the forum. Honest reviews by people you know.



According to the supplier, it can be used up to 100% without issue. The only thing I can think is that it had some kind of weird chemical reaction with one of the batter ingredients. That or I did just over blend. I'm going to try making another batch today and hand blending like you suggest!


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## KiwiMoose (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> I'm going to try making another batch today and hand blending like you suggest!


Let us know how you get on! : )


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> Let us know how you get on! : )



If it goes wrong, you'll probably hear the sobbing from where you are. lol


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## penelopejane (Jul 9, 2020)

Here is a thread about UK suppliers That you might find useful: 




__





						Help - based in the U.K. Making CP Soaps
					

Hey Everyone,  So I really need help! I am trying to start making my own homemade soaps, I live in the U.K. and really need some advice on the best suppliers for Oil, Butters and Luxury Oil And Butters. Fragrances and Essential Oils. There seem to be so many, but the prices vary, I am not a...




					www.soapmakingforum.com


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## TheGecko (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> I live in the UK, and I don't think either of those have UK stores. Importing them would cost more than it'd be worth to make them sadly.



My apologies, I was tired last night and didn't check your location before posting.  I do know that in Australia, can't think of the name off-hand, that there is a supplier that sells rebranded BrambleBerry...you might check with UK suppliers.  My only other suggestions is simply to test whatever 'coffee' scents are available in the UK.  That's what I do as a matter of course...I buy 'trial' or 1 oz bottles and then make a small batch.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

penelopejane said:


> Here is a thread about UK suppliers That you might find useful:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's great - thank you. I actually have some of these bookmarked, but I'll check out the others too! 

I generally buy my stuff from either The Soap Kitchen or The Soapery, both of whom are very good. I'll have to try and find an alternative source for the coffee fragrance and see if that's any better.


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## linne1gi (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Hi all,
> 
> So, I have my lovely batter which gives me a lovely long working time. Until it meets coffee fragrance, it seems.
> 
> ...


Your recipe is quite heavy on solid butters - so I'm not at all surprised your batter thickened up.  Plus you have over 17.5 % of Castor Oil which does tend to accelerate trace. If I were you I would change up your recipe, especially if you want to test out new fragrances.  I looked at the site you provided on your coffee fragrance oil and they don't tell you how it behaves in CP - which is a pain, but on the plus side, I think it only has 2.6% Vanillin.  So I don't think it would darken much.


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## Megan (Jul 9, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> Your recipe is quite heavy on solid butters - so I'm not at all surprised your batter thickened up.  Plus you have over 17.5 % of Castor Oil which does tend to accelerate trace. If I were you I would change up your recipe, especially if you want to test out new fragrances.  I looked at the site you provided on your coffee fragrance oil and they don't tell you how it behaves in CP - which is a pain, but on the plus side, I think it only has 2.6% Vanillin.  So I don't think it would darken much.


I was also really suprised that she said her recipe gives her long working time. Also that she could stick blend for 15 seconds in a row _after _emulsion.

I never stick blend my fragrances, but I tend to need a lot of working time. I also try not to stick blend my color but that doesn't always work out.


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## linne1gi (Jul 9, 2020)

Megan said:


> I was also really suprised that she said her recipe gives her long working time. Also that she could stick blend for 15 seconds in a row _after _emulsion.
> 
> I never stick blend my fragrances, but I tend to need a lot of working time. I also try not to stick blend my color but that doesn't always work out.


I agree - I almost never stick blend fragrance in, or color, unless I need a thicker trace.  And lately I have been using Lard more - it traces very slow and really helps me with more working time.   I have been entering into The Soap Challenges lately and all the challenges require more working time.  Remember the tall and skinny shimmy?  Wowza, that one took me at least 4 attempts to get right - and a lot of lard and olive oil!


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> Your recipe is quite heavy on solid butters - so I'm not at all surprised your batter thickened up.  Plus you have over 17.5 % of Castor Oil which does tend to accelerate trace. If I were you I would change up your recipe, especially if you want to test out new fragrances.  I looked at the site you provided on your coffee fragrance oil and they don't tell you how it behaves in CP - which is a pain, but on the plus side, I think it only has 2.6% Vanillin.  So I don't think it would darken much.



I use the batter for all my other soaps without too much of an issue. I've started using a 2.5:1 water to lye ratio which seems to provide a decent amount of working time. I might try reducing the amount of OO or something.



Megan said:


> I was also really suprised that she said her recipe gives her long working time. Also that she could stick blend for 15 seconds in a row _after _emulsion.
> 
> I never stick blend my fragrances, but I tend to need a lot of working time. I also try not to stick blend my color but that doesn't always work out.



He*

And for the most part, he doesn't have any problems.


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## penelopejane (Jul 9, 2020)

I agree with linne, sorry I’ve been using my phone and didn’t look at the recipe before. Most use castor oil at a maximum of 5% when it is effective at supporting bubbles. Above that and it effects trace and makes a soap sticky. I don’t use any other oils or butters at less than 10% as I can’t detect a difference below that.  So change your recipe first before you waste more ingredients.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

penelopejane said:


> I agree with linne, sorry I’ve been using my phone and didn’t look at the recipe before. Most use castor oil at a maximum of 5% when it is effective at supporting bubbles. Above that and it effects trace and makes a soap sticky. I don’t use any other oils or butters at less than 10% as I can’t detect a difference below that.  So change your recipe first before you waste more ingredients.



Maybe I'll mix up the recipe tomorrow and see what I can come up with.



penelopejane said:


> I agree with linne, sorry I’ve been using my phone and didn’t look at the recipe before. Most use castor oil at a maximum of 5% when it is effective at supporting bubbles. Above that and it effects trace and makes a soap sticky. I don’t use any other oils or butters at less than 10% as I can’t detect a difference below that.  So change your recipe first before you waste more ingredients.



How about something like this?


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## penelopejane (Jul 9, 2020)

You’ve still got almond, Shea and mango at 2.5%. Honestly, you won’t be able to detect them below 10%.

I’d personally cut your number of oils and test the difference between cocoa, Shea and mango butters in different soaps. Butters can inhibit bubbles but I love them on the skin. Shea in a soap OR cocoa in a soap are quite different. Otherwise I’d drop the coconut to 10% increase everything else to 10% and reduce the OO. Except castor, keep that at 5%.

In testing Soap recipes you are trying to work out which oils/butters work for you and your skin.  Your current recipe won’t do this as the tiny amounts will all be lost/wasted.


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## Megan (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> He*
> 
> And for the most part, he doesn't have any problems.


Sorry, I wan't paying attention and I shouldn't have assumed. 
Also, I wasn't saying you did have issues, or automatically would, with the recipe. I'm not skeptical about it. I was just surprised with the oils you were using and the amounts that it wasn't a quick mover. As I've never tried it, I wouldn't know...


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

Megan said:


> Sorry, I wan't paying attention and I shouldn't have assumed.
> Also, I wasn't saying you did have issues, or automatically would, with the recipe. I'm not skeptical about it. I was just surprised with the oils you were using and the amounts that it wasn't a quick mover. As I've never tried it, I wouldn't know...



It wasn't a dig! Don't think that. I always take advice on board. I tweak my recipes quite a lot, this was the first time I'd had any disasters with this one... but I'm still perfecting it. 

I've made a few soaps with this one, and it's been ok so far. I like experimenting with new things and techniques.


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## linne1gi (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> I use the batter for all my other soaps without too much of an issue. I've started using a 2.5:1 water to lye ratio which seems to provide a decent amount of working time. I might try reducing the amount of OO or something.



In my mind adding more water to help with your working time with your soap - means you have the wrong recipe.  I consistently use a 2:1 water/lye ratio and sometimes even a 1.75:1 water/lye ratio, and there is plenty of working time.  By increasing the water you are promoting a host of additional problems: First, it increases your risk of soda ash, your soap will tend to overheat - causing heat tunnels and a host of other problems, your soap will take longer to unmold, and will tend to be sticky - and can possibly even warp because so much of the water has to evaporate out.  Anyway, not trying to bully you - just would like to to consider changing up your recipe.  Reduce the % of Castor Oil - 5% if fine - Castor oil doesn't give bubbles, it sustains them.  Increase your Olive Oil, don't decrease it.  Also Babasso Oil is quite similar to Coconut Oil - but way more expensive.  Just use Coconut Oil.  The recipe that AndyRoo posted above is better but I would still combine the Babassu Oil and Coconut Oil and actually lower the % to 20.  Higher than that and the soap can be too drying.   I would propose:  Coconut Oil 20%, Cocoa Butter 10%, Mango Butter 5%, Shea Butter 5%, Olive Oil 45%, Sweet Almond Oil, 10%, Castor Oil 5%.   And lower your water amount as well.  Much luck to you.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

penelopejane said:


> You’ve still got almond, Shea and mango at 2.5%. Honestly, you won’t be able to detect them below 10%.
> 
> I’d personally cut your number of oils and test the difference between cocoa, Shea and mango butters in different soaps. Butters can inhibit bubbles but I love them on the skin. Shea in a soap OR cocoa in a soap are quite different. Otherwise I’d drop the coconut to 10% increase everything else to 10% and reduce the OO. Except castor, keep that at 5%.
> 
> In testing Soap recipes you are trying to work out which oils/butters work for you and your skin.  Your current recipe won’t do this as the tiny amounts will all be lost/wasted.



Umm, so for the novice that I am: Are you saying ditch some of them altogether and just concentrate on a few ingredients instead? At the moment, my most "in stock" items are: Olive Oil, Babassu Oil, Coconut Oil, Castor Oil, and then I have a pretty even choice of Shea or Cocoa butter, TBH. If I can get a good recipe going and not have to keep so many pots hanging around, that works for me!


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## Megan (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Umm, so for the novice that I am: Are you saying ditch some of them altogether and just concentrate on a few ingredients instead? At the moment, my most "in stock" items are: Olive Oil, Babassu Oil, Coconut Oil, Castor Oil, and then I have a pretty even choice of Shea or Cocoa butter, TBH. If I can get a good recipe going and not have to keep so many pots hanging around, that works for me!


I would choose either babassu or coconut (but personally I believe babassu is just overpriced coconut...unless you are using it directly on the skin, then it's pretty awesome). 
I don't think using a combination of butters is a bad thing. I have a double butter bar, and want to create a triple butter one. However, if using a butter at 2.5%, you probably won't see a big difference...like others had said. That being said, doing the single butter bars and comparing, you might find that you do prefer one over the others. If I had to choose, I would probably pick cocoa over shea just for the hardness factor.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

Megan said:


> I would choose either babassu or coconut (but personally I believe babassu is just overpriced coconut...unless you are using it directly on the skin, then it's pretty awesome).
> I don't think using a combination of butters is a bad thing. I have a double butter bar, and want to create a triple butter one. However, if using a butter at 2.5%, you probably won't see a big difference...like others had said. That being said, doing the single butter bars and comparing, you might find that you do prefer one over the others. If I had to choose, I would probably pick cocoa over shea just for the hardness factor.



What I want to come up with is a single base batter that I can then customise with fragrances, and clays and the occasional additives etc. It doesn't have to be fantastically fancy or anything; I only make them for me and my friends. My partner did talk about maybe at some point in the far flung future going to some craft fairs etc... but that would really only ever be if we genuinely thought they were worthy. It won't be happening any time soon - if ever.


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## linne1gi (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Umm, so for the novice that I am: Are you saying ditch some of them altogether and just concentrate on a few ingredients instead? At the moment, my most "in stock" items are: Olive Oil, Babassu Oil, Coconut Oil, Castor Oil, and then I have a pretty even choice of Shea or Cocoa butter, TBH. If I can get a good recipe going and not have to keep so many pots hanging around, that works for me!



Yes - as Megan says, Babassu is just overpriced Coconut Oil.  I would use it up for sure, but not purchase specifically for soap making.   You can definitely get a nice soap from Olive, Coconut, Shea Butter, Cocoa Butter and Castor Oil if those are the oils you have.  Do you know how to use soapcalc.net?   That way you can input your oils/butters and come up with a great recipe all your own.  There's no better feeling than to make a soap recipe that you hand created.   Here's a tutorial on soapcalc if you don't understand it.    Leaving Facebook

A simple recipe using only those oils/butters:   Olive 50%, Shea 10%, Cocoa 10%, Coconut 25%, Castor 5%.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> Yes - as Megan says, Babassu is just overpriced Coconut Oil.  I would use it up for sure, but not purchase specifically for soap making.   You can definitely get a nice soap from Olive, Coconut, Shea Butter, Cocoa Butter and Castor Oil if those are the oils you have.  Do you know how to use soapcalc.net?   That way you can input your oils/butters and come up with a great recipe all your own.  There's no better feeling than to make a soap recipe that you hand created.   Here's a tutorial on soapcalc if you don't understand it.    https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.humblebeeandme.com/faqs/how-do-i-use-soapcalc/?fbclid=IwAR3XwFCpHKoTGZXD2ID8wfGrlwbTiljTESD1BUs3qYLya-NY7dcZgs70LZI&h=AT3jdbVPf_8rB9YWAqdOcPVOrqKHApmFJ5yDfM8Ka3wMSWXydica7gJ46FiAwN3OumiBMMGiIIzWXs_ggHS52XeHeZJBE-hKOIttItpD7bw_u66ecYeQNnr64aXRleV_4WIpFfLD3agIfq7ix1R4dHE



I've used SoapCalc in the past. The one I use now the the one of SoapMakingFriend - purely because it allows you to save your recipes, which is handy for me because my note taking is appalling and my memory is shocking! :/

I'll use up the Babassu and then focus on Coconut Oil instead if it's much of a muchness.

The reason I ended up with Babassu is because I'm vegetarian and, yes, I know you don't eat soap - but I can't bring myself to use tallow or lard in my recipes as a result. Not a judgement on anyone; I just can't bring myself to do it. Then I tried some with Palm Oil and felt guilty for that (even though it was RSPO) and then I discovered Babassu (which I know is from Palm trees, but I was told wasn't destructive for animals)... and so on and so on.

I'm quite lucky in that money isn't too much of a problem (well paid job) - so I can afford to make mistakes... I'd just rather avoid them if I can!


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## linne1gi (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> I've used SoapCalc in the past. The one I use now the the one of SoapMakingFriend - purely because it allows you to save your recipes, which is handy for me because my note taking is appalling and my memory is shocking! :/
> 
> I'll use up the Babassu and then focus on Coconut Oil instead if it's much of a muchness.
> 
> ...



That's a shame because Lard makes a wonderful soap, probably my favorite soaping oil.    Maybe if you thought about the fact that - this way none of the animal goes to waste.  And in thinking about what you put on your body - nobody would want to coat themselves with Coconut Oil, or Olive Oil.  The other thing is that all vegetable oils figure into the destruction of the forests - Lard doesn't.


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## penelopejane (Jul 9, 2020)

Shampoo Bar - Thanks Lindy!!
					

I've never been a fan of CP shampoo bars because immediately they'd leave my hair all dried out & straw-like.  So I only used Syndet bars and never looked back. But a post Lindy made here https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-is-this-for-a-basic-shampoo-bar-recipe.30757/  helped me see the...




					www.soapmakingforum.com
				




This is a fabulous recipe to start with for bar soap (don’t use it as a shampoo)
Use coconut oil instead of  soy bean oil, cut castor to 5%, Try avocado and Shea in one soap then try almond and Shea in another then try avocado and cocoa in another soap and almond and Shea and another with mango etc then another soap combining the butters and work out what each of the ingredients bring to the soap. I agree with the others about babassu but try it yourself and compare it with coconut.

Unfortunately no one soap recipe will suit everyone.  What might be one person’s perfect soap will be someone else’s nightmare. You need to try different combinations making 500g batches, cure for 8 weeks and compare them in blind testing with a few different people.

Personally, don’t use animal fats or palm in soap or in food.  In Australia there is resistance to both in handmade soap.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> That's a shame because Lard makes a wonderful soap, probably my favorite soaping oil.    Maybe if you thought about the fact that - this way none of the animal goes to waste.  And in thinking about what you put on your body - nobody would want to coat themselves with Coconut Oil, or Olive Oil.  The other thing is that all vegetable oils figure into the destruction of the forests - Lard doesn't.



I just can't do it. Again, not a judgement on anyone, but I don't drink dairy milk or wear leather etc. I'm not a vegan (I have hens, so I eat eggs), and I eat honey. I just try to avoid animal products - especially when it results in them going to the big farmyard in the sky!


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## linne1gi (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> I just can't do it. Again, not a judgement on anyone, but I don't drink dairy milk or wear leather etc. I'm not a vegan (I have hens, so I eat eggs), and I eat honey. I just try to avoid animal products - especially when it results in them going to the big farmyard in the sky!


They've already gone to the farmyard in the sky - because someone is eating Pork Chops or bacon.  I don't eat meat either - but I feel it's okay to use lard, because that way no part of the animal is tossed aside.  But that's me - you have to do what you believe in.  Let's not beat this poor dead pig any longer, LOL.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 9, 2020)

Obviously I will update the recipe once I run out of Babassu, but for now I might try this with a 2:1 water-lye ratio.


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## linne1gi (Jul 9, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Obviously I will update the recipe once I run out of Babassu, but for now I might try this with a 2:1 water-lye ratio.


Looks good!


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## AndyRoo (Jul 10, 2020)

Well, I tried it with that new mix of oils. They didn't give me quite as much working time as the other recipe (I had maybe 3-4 minutes, the other one probably gave me about 5-6, so there's not a lot in it), but it was a decent amount. I'm not sure what it is, but there's something about that fragrance oil which really accelerates the trace. I tried a swirl in the pot, but it had gone gloopy as I started to pour and the last bit was being spooned into the mould. Usually I'd bin it if it did that, but I am just going to see what it turns out like. I doubt it'll be anything I think "Oooh, pretty!" to - but it might be useable.


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## Megan (Jul 10, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Well, I tried it with that new mix of oils. They didn't give me quite as much working time as the other recipe (I had maybe 3-4 minutes, the other one probably gave me about 5-6, so there's not a lot in it), but it was a decent amount. I'm not sure what it is, but there's something about that fragrance oil which really accelerates the trace. I tried a swirl in the pot, but it had gone gloopy as I started to pour and the last bit was being spooned into the mould. Usually I'd bin it if it did that, but I am just going to see what it turns out like. I doubt it'll be anything I think "Oooh, pretty!" to - but it might be useable.


I've done some pretty nice ITP swils with "goopy" batter. The issues come when it actually sets up and gets like ragged and hard (like an actual seize). Those times it doesn't end up very nice. You hand stirred in the FO this time, right? From what you said it sounds like you got to thick trace rather than actually seizing the batter...which is pretty good for an accelerating FO. Just whack the mold on the ground well to try to get the air pockets out.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 10, 2020)

Megan said:


> I've done some pretty nice ITP swils with "goopy" batter. The issues come when it actually sets up and gets like ragged and hard (like an actual seize). Those times it doesn't end up very nice. You hand stirred in the FO this time, right? From what you said it sounds like you got to thick trace rather than actually seizing the batter...which is pretty good for an accelerating FO. Just whack the mold on the ground well to try to get the air pockets out.



I brought the batter to emulsion, split it between my jugs and mixed in the colourants and fragrances by hand. There was a tiny bit of ricing, so I gave it a SB of a second or so, which brought it together, but then in the minute or so it took me to mix them in the pot, it was seizing. I was literally dolloping it into the mould and hoping for the best.

I need to try the same blend of oils/butters with another fragrance oil just to see if it's the batter or the fragrance oil... the batter looked ok to me at emulsion, so I think it's probably just a bit of a rubbish FO and I need to look for an alternative. It smells really nice! I'm just not confident it is going to look good or be useable. C'est la vie!


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## TheGecko (Jul 10, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> Your recipe is quite heavy on solid butters - so I'm not at all surprised your batter thickened up.



My recipe is 60% hard oils/butters and I don't have an issue unless I stick blend too much or have a misbehaving FO.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 10, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> My recipe is 60% hard oils/butters and I don't have an issue unless I stick blend too much or have a misbehaving FO.



Unless I'm misunderstanding, my recipe was only 45% hard oils/butters. Although I am not using that one anymore.


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## linne1gi (Jul 10, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Well, I tried it with that new mix of oils. They didn't give me quite as much working time as the other recipe (I had maybe 3-4 minutes, the other one probably gave me about 5-6, so there's not a lot in it), but it was a decent amount. I'm not sure what it is, but there's something about that fragrance oil which really accelerates the trace. I tried a swirl in the pot, but it had gone gloopy as I started to pour and the last bit was being spooned into the mould. Usually I'd bin it if it did that, but I am just going to see what it turns out like. I doubt it'll be anything I think "Oooh, pretty!" to - but it might be useable.


Put down the stick blender!  Seriously, that’s the biggest problem new soapers have.  Stick blend for 5 seconds, hand stir, stick blend for 5 seconds, hand stir and so on.  I almost never stick blend for more than 15 seconds total. The idea is to get to emulsion which is right before trace. Hand stir in your colors and fragrance.  If you need a thicker trace, wait, don’t stick blend more.


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## linne1gi (Jul 10, 2020)

Megan said:


> I was also really suprised that she said her recipe gives her long working time. Also that she could stick blend for 15 seconds in a row _after _emulsion.
> 
> I never stick blend my fragrances, but I tend to need a lot of working time. I also try not to stick blend my color but that doesn't always work out.


I like to pre disperse my colors, that way I can hand stir them in.  Have you ever watched Teri of Tree Marie Soapworks. I use her method of blending in colors, it’s more time and trouble but you get  smooth color, no specs anywhere.


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## TheGecko (Jul 10, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Are you saying ditch some of them altogether and just concentrate on a few ingredients instead?



Considering some of the amounts being used...yes. The 'holy trinity' of soap making is 3 ingredients: Olive, Coconut and Palm Oils. 

With the exception of Castor Oil at 5%, anything else under 10% does nothing for you soap...except to increase your costs and consumer price tag.

I know some folks have objections to using Palm Oil, even if it is RSPO Certified (those poor monkeys) or using Lard/Tallow (OMG Becky...gross!). I use Palm Oil (RSPO) because to not use it means that the same thing will happen to other oils if we eliminate it and by supporting RSPO, it shows that it can be done. Also, the vast majority of commercial soaps contain Sodium Tallowate. Hello...it's still tallow. 

If you want, you are more than welcomed to give my recipe a try: Olive Oil (35%), Coconut and Palm Oils (20%), Cocoa and Shea Butters (10%) and Castor Oil (5%). I am using a 33% Lye Concentration, 5% SuperFat. I heat my Hard Oils/Butters on the stove at a medium heat until about halfway melted, then turn off the stove. While waiting I for the residual heat to finish melting the Cocoa Butter, I use frozen distilled water to mix up my lye solution...cuts out the fumes and lowers the temperature. I then weigh out my Soft Oils, add the melted Hard Oil, give it a good whisk or stick blend, then add in my lye solution. I only blend in short bursts and stirs to emulsion if I'm splitting my batter for any reason, elsewise for a single color soap, I continue to a medium trace to make moving the mold later easier. 

A few weeks ago I made a 14lb batch and then did some major splitting. I poured out 2 lbs into two containers, added FO, then split each into three containers for colored layers and hanger swirl. Then I poured out 4 lbs into two containers (3 1/2 lbs in one, half pound in the other); added FO, cocoa and mica to the larger bowl, poured, and added a cocoa layer. Then added TD to the second and blended to thick trace and plopped on and dusted with cocoa. Then the last 8 lbs went into two containers (4 lbs each) , scented and divided the batter yet again...adding TD to the larger portion and colorant to the smaller and then doing a drop and chopstick swirl. It was only by this point that my batter started to thicken up to a medium trace.

It was about 75F in the kitchen and I started my batter out at around 120F.


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## TheGecko (Jul 10, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> Unless I'm misunderstanding, my recipe was only 45% hard oils/butters. Although I am not using that one anymore.



I was replying to the other person.


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## linne1gi (Jul 10, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> Considering some of the amounts being used...yes. The 'holy trinity' of soap making is 3 ingredients: Olive, Coconut and Palm Oils.
> 
> With the exception of Castor Oil at 5%, anything else under 10% does nothing for you soap...except to increase your costs and consumer price tag.
> 
> ...



What a busy day you had!


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## TheGecko (Jul 10, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> What a busy day you had!



It was interesting.  I could have planned better.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 11, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> I was replying to the other person.



Oh!


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## AndyRoo (Jul 11, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> Put down the stick blender!  Seriously, that’s the biggest problem new soapers have.  Stick blend for 5 seconds, hand stir, stick blend for 5 seconds, hand stir and so on.  I almost never stick blend for more than 15 seconds total. The idea is to get to emulsion which is right before trace. Hand stir in your colors and fragrance.  If you need a thicker trace, wait, don’t stick blend more.



I literally only used it when the ricing happened, and that was only for a few seconds; I did everything else by hand this time. The colours didn't mix in quite so well - but otherwise it was all good.



linne1gi said:


> I like to pre disperse my colors, that way I can hand stir them in.  Have you ever watched Teri of Tree Marie Soapworks. I use her method of blending in colors, it’s more time and trouble but you get  smooth color, no specs anywhere.



With my non-liquid pigments, I tend to use an ice cream stick to mix them into a bit of oil or water first and then blend them in, but if blending by hand, I tend to find that doesn't work so well for me.


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## SoapSisters (Jul 11, 2020)

AndyRoo said:


> I brought the batter to emulsion, split it between my jugs and mixed in the colourants and fragrances by hand. There was a tiny bit of ricing, so I gave it a SB of a second or so, which brought it together, but then in the minute or so it took me to mix them in the pot, it was seizing. I was literally dolloping it into the mould and hoping for the best.
> 
> I need to try the same blend of oils/butters with another fragrance oil just to see if it's the batter or the fragrance oil... the batter looked ok to me at emulsion, so I think it's probably just a bit of a rubbish FO and I need to look for an alternative. It smells really nice! I'm just not confident it is going to look good or be useable. C'est la vie!


I've had trouble with coffee FO as well. It was from New Directions UK. I think trying the same recipe with a different FO sounds like a really good idea. Your batter shouldn't seize at all with a well-behaved FO.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 11, 2020)

Well, these are my results. The coffee one looks marginally better than I thought it would... but I'm determined to get it right at a later date. It smells great, and the coffee grounds give a nice, light exfoliation, which is what I wanted. The sea shanty soaps smell amazing, but the problem I have with the colour is that it makes the lather slightly blue; it washes off fine. Maybe that's just because it needs to finish curing. I love the smell of that soap, and generally how it looks. They're both nice bars to use in the shower in the morning to wake you up, IMHO.


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## Carolina (Sep 23, 2020)

Wow this was amazing! So much useful information.

I just started making soap for other people that is not my family and I always wanted to make a coffee soap. Long ago I made a Chocolate one which started as a disaster, but ended up being a favourite!

@TheGecko ... Loved your reply with the "holly trinity"


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