# Looking for advices



## Doutor2 (Dec 23, 2016)

Hello,

I'm going to explain what I do to make soap and I would like to have some advices from you to get some improvements.

This is what I do:

10% Castor; 20% Coconut; 35% Sunflower Oil (Non High Oleic); 35% Palm Kernel Oil. Soap calculator says its properties are good. 
5% superfat; about 10mL of fragrance/1kg of soap (even if it recommends 20mL); 40ºC for the temperature of the oils (they say higher speeds ups the trace); I use grape seeds for exfoliation; than I mix until light trace; when I use eucalyptus fragrance my soap remains liquid for me to pour it well in the mould; when I use lavender or marine fragrances it solidifies quicker.
Than... I was trying to use a color pattern in my soap... such as: coloured layer, white layer (in the middle), and another coloured layer. Do you know better one which is easy?

Other thing I would like to say... than I leave my soap in the mold for 1 month; in the first days I just leave a towel to cover it; in the days after I cover it with plastic not to let it contact with oxygen; of course I don't leave it to light.

Than, I cut it in 2cm slices, I wrap it in celofane and seal it in vacuum and I place it in a box made of thick paper (220g/m3) that I make by myself. 

I think it costs me about 0,50€ to make and I sell them for 1€.

I'm looking for advices and...that's it


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 23, 2016)

Stop selling. 

Invest time in learning how to make soap properly before you make another batch, which will be for personal use. 

Test recipes (once you have learnt about oils and what they bring to soaps) for at least 6 months before starting to sell. 

Get business advice on how to calculate retail costs (hint, it's not ingredients cost x 2!)

Take this in good faith, as it's not meant to hurt, but to be a frank and blunt wake up call


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## TBandCW (Dec 23, 2016)

I'm no expert, but I only leave my soap in the mold overnight.  I'd also let it cure a little more after you cut it and before you wrap it to make sure no moisture remains.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 23, 2016)

Not to mention - if you are in the EU you need to have your recipe assessed by an approved chemist.  Have you had that done?  If not, you are almost certainly breaking the law.


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## kumudini (Dec 23, 2016)

So much of what you do is not right, I wouldn't know where to start, but for starters your recipe is going to give a very drying soap. You really do need to read a lot about different oils, their properties and learn how to formulate a good recipe. Watch a bunch of beginner videos, read the beginner section of this forum. Hope you'll do your homework if you really want to sell or even make soap for yourself and family.


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## Kamahido (Dec 23, 2016)

We here on the forums see this kind of post all the time. It usually goes something like this...

January: Just made my first batch of soap from a recipe I found online! Was so much fun! I am totally hooked!

February: That soap I made last month was awesome compared to the stuff at the store! A small boutique shop in my town bought the last of it!

March: Uh... can someone tell me what rancid soap smells like?

April: Okay, what is the proper way to make soap?

Problem is, people buy this stuff and think that all handmade soap is like that. Whole industry then loses a customer (or ten). I won't even get into the liability aspect of this...

I agree with everything the Efficacious Gentleman said, "Get business advice on how to calculate retail costs". What I would add to that statement is based on what you said "I think it costs me about 0,50€". No... you need to know exactly what it costs. Do you think the billion dollar corporations say "it costs about .50 to make"? Nope! They have it down to a fraction of a cent per unit (i.e. $0.514 per unit). 

Time to back this train up. Forget selling and start with you recipe. That recipe is insanely stripping! What soap calculator said it was okay? Did you formulate it yourself or read about it online/in a book? If you plan to sell you must learn how to formulate a recipe. No one is going to post a top notch recipe (one that they spent hundreds or even thousands of dollar perfecting) on the internet for free.

And the testing phase. The European Union REQUIRES that your recipe be tested, not because they are mean or trying to oppress small business, but because there are too many people out there who think they know how to make soap because they watched one YouTube video.

"Other thing I would like to say... than I leave my soap in the mold for 1  month; in the first days I just leave a towel to cover it; in the days  after I cover it with plastic not to let it contact with oxygen; of  course I don't leave it to light".

If your soap is in the mold only one side of it can breathe. The sides touching the mold are not. The towel I can understand, but if you cover it with plastic how is the excess water supposed to escape? Then you vacuum seal/shrink wrap it... again, how is the excess water supposed to escape? This is just asking for rancidity.

Many people on this (and many other) forum(s) take a rather dim view of those individuals that put their own personal profits ahead of the safety and well-being of their customers and the rules and regulations we all must follow.


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## redhead1226 (Dec 23, 2016)

When I started I studied a a lot! And I also made a lot of soap. I loved making soap but I didnt want to just make soap. I wanted to make good soap. And I didnt want to make what other people thought was a good soap. So I started with recipes I saw online. I never sold one single bar of soap. I just kept making different ones to see what "I" thought was good. I started making designs as practice and was always anxious to cut them to see what I made! All of this was just practice. Over a year went by before I clearly could see how certain combinations worked and how some didn't. Yes I spent a lot of $$$ on practice but I knew that was very necessary. My soap was used primarily by me and my friends and family as "feedback" for me to know about what I was making. I didn't feel I was the opinion I needed. I think people were getting sick of me saying - hey try this one! lol . But I was learning the ranges of Lauric, Oleic, Myristic, Linoleic, Stearic etc. that I liked and what qualities these brought to the soap and the oils that brought them. 

I get irritated when I see someone come on here and ask whats the best recipe? I didn't want to know. I wanted to find out myself. That's how I would learn. Lots of mistakes is what taught me. Do I now know whats the best soap? Somewhat.... But the day I stop testing and searching is the day I wont want to make soap anymore. So I don't want to know. I want to stumple on it one day all by myself or not.  That's what drives my joy in soap making.  As I would hope it does for most of you.   Personally, I love tallow and lard in my soap but I like many others as well.  Merry Christmas All!!! Enjoy!


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## BattleGnome (Dec 23, 2016)

Just to overwhelm you a little more. Learn how to properly cure your soaps. 

Looking at your other posts you mention that your soap doesn't last long despite your soap calculator saying that it's hard. An actual cure will help that. The amount of water you use will effect how long your soap will last. A very simplified explanation of cure is that all the excess water will evaporate to help your soap last longer. Proper curing does so much more and you will notice a difference, even if you choose to keep this recipe.


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## Susie (Dec 23, 2016)

If you are not wanting any more advice, AKA constructive criticism, skip this.  You have been warned. 

If you really do want to create good soap, read on.



Doutor2 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm going to explain what I do to make soap and I would like to have some advices from you to get some improvements.
> 
> ...



That is not a good recipe.  You need to toss this recipe.  The issues are these:

Too much castor oil.  I find that that much castor prolongs cure too much, and it actually decreases the lather.

I, personally, find that too much coconut oil, but others don't mind it.  Your own testing will help you decide.  However, coconut oil and palm kernel oil serve the same purpose, and using both makes a very stripping soap.  Figure out which one is cheaper for you, and stick to 20% of that.

I don't use sunflower oil, but others like it, so wait for them.  I use olive oil as the liquid oil component of my soap.

What you are missing:  Either palm, tallow, or lard for at least 35% of your recipe.  These give your bar hardness, and longevity.  If you have no religious, dietary, or cultural reasons to avoid animal fats, lard and tallow are marvelous in soap.  If you have reasons to avoid animal fats, then palm will serve the same purpose.  These oils all bring very different qualities to soap, so testing is necessary.

All of this requires repeated testing with minor variations of amounts of each oil until you know what YOUR favorite soap is.  Then more testing to figure out other awesome recipes.  This takes time.  Lots of time.  Each batch requires 4-6 weeks cure time.  Then you tweak that recipe again.  Be absolutely sure to keep good notes so that you can refer to them when all those batches start blending together.



Doutor2 said:


> about 10mL of fragrance/1kg of soap (even if it recommends 20mL)



You need to follow recommendations on fragrance amounts.  We have a whole area dedicated to fragrances and how they act in soap.  

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47182



Doutor2 said:


> 40ºC for the temperature of the oils (they say higher speeds ups the trace)



Higher temperature does speed up trace.  But you need to know what YOUR recipes need to have to perform well.  You can only learn that through experience.



Doutor2 said:


> I use grape seeds for exfoliation; than I mix until light trace



I would add those seeds after trace to avoid them settling to the bottom, but you go with whatever works for you.  Just be sure you KNOW what works, and why.



Doutor2 said:


> when I use eucalyptus fragrance my soap remains liquid for me to pour it well in the mould; when I use lavender or marine fragrances it solidifies quicker.



That is absolutely normal.  You will really benefit yourself by reading through at least the first 5-10 pages of the Beginner Forum and Lye Based Soap Forum.  Read the stickies first.  Pay special attention to anything with the word "help" in the title.  This is a good intro to troubleshooting.  All the issues with fragrances are mentioned in those forums or the Fragrance Oils/Fragrance Reviews Forum.  




Doutor2 said:


> Than... I was trying to use a color pattern in my soap... such as: coloured layer, white layer (in the middle), and another coloured layer. Do you know better one which is easy?



I would strongly suggest you head over to YouTube and use the phrase "soap making" in the search bar.  There are lots of videos there.  We also have lots of challenges on this forum.  Each one has a video to show a swirl.  Just use "challenge" as a search term.



Doutor2 said:


> Other thing I would like to say... than I leave my soap in the mold for 1 month; in the first days I just leave a towel to cover it; in the days after I cover it with plastic not to let it contact with oxygen; of course I don't leave it to light.
> 
> Than, I cut it in 2cm slices, I wrap it in celofane and seal it in vacuum and I place it in a box made of thick paper (220g/m3) that I make by myself.



I have no idea, whatsoever, where you read that method, but it is so very wrong!  You leave your soap in the mold 18-24 *hours*, cut them, stand them on edge with at least 0.5 cm air space between each two bars.  DO NOT COVER OR WRAP THEM!  Turn them to another edge in about a week, at which time you need to zap test. Turn in a week, repeat every week.  Let cure *open to air* for four to six *weeks*.  Then, and only then can you package it.  If you have a box, I would not use cellophane.



Doutor2 said:


> I think it costs me about 0,50€ to make and I sell them for 1€.
> 
> I'm looking for advices and...that's it



I think you have probably gotten the idea that we think it is a bad idea to sell right now.  

To give you some idea, I have been making soap and testing recipes for over three years.  I am just now starting to test my soaps on a broader audience, (I give it to people free for their opinions) and entertaining the idea of selling.  Why, you ask?  Because you need 3-4 good solid recipes that appeal to a wide audience that you can get the same results from over and over, and that takes lots and lots of time making lots and lots of soap.  

Every factor changes the soap.  I got a batch of olive oil that made two batches of soap fail.  Same manufacturer, same brand, same store.  Tiny differences of quality.

I hope you realize that none of us were born knowing how to make soap.  We all had to learn the hard way.  And we have lots of members that started trying to sell too early, so don't feel alone.


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## Doutor2 (Dec 26, 2016)

Thanks for all the comments and advices.
About the fragrances... Yes, I'm learning with the experience the effects they have on trace and if their smell is strong enough.

Aspects I will correct: maturation...I'm going to leave it in the mold for one day; than cut it; than leave it in contact with the air, just with a towel as cover for 1 month; than I'll seal it.
About the recipe: I would like my soap to be a little more conditioning and with a more moist external appearance; I think it's hardness is good, it's bubbly is good; I don't know how to know if it cleans very well...
About selling it: I sell it in a store of my mother to customers that are familiar to us...so...I don't care if it is illegal; the cost per soap 0,50€ is what I have calculated... I don't need a deep financial analysis... just to know if the value is right.


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## ibct1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

Doutor2, I do not mean to sound rude, but wit the exception of removing it from the mold after a day, you seem to be ignoring the advice that you asked for.  Re-read what the experts have written above, about your recipe, cure time and selling.  Start with a basic recipe and master that before adding colors, additives and/or fragrance and selling.  Best of luck.


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## Dahila (Dec 26, 2016)

Dotour do not seal your soap, it has to breath, and it is going to be milder and better with time.  I pack my soaps so sides are open.  Where did you get this idea about sealing? 
go on Soapcalc and study the oils the properties,   I am selling mine but the first soap was probably done 3 or 4 years ago.  I registered the business and started to sell after testing soaps for 2 years.  You need to read carefully what people are telling you.  
I hate when customers come to my booth and they tell me that they got soap and they hate it,   I waste a lot of soaps to give away the samples, so they can see what I do. 
People like you ruin my market .................I am so mad now


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## lenarenee (Dec 26, 2016)

Here's the first and most important soap lesson every beginner needs to memorize:

*A badly made bar of soap can harm someone. *

Since you have chosen to take on the responsibility of making soap to sell - then you need to educate yourself on the chemistry of soap making. If one of your mom's customers buys your soap, then returns 2 days later with lye irritation or burns on their skin, demanding that your mother pay for the doctor's visit and prescription medication to treat their skin - then you're in big trouble. 

If you are interested it learning - this forum will be very happy to help you with that process. In fact - we love to help new people become addicted to making great soap!

If you do live in the EU, and do not follow the proper regulations you will also put you, your mom, and her business in great legal and financial danger.

A bad bar of your soap can cause disaster. And YOU will be responsible.

ETA: In case it helps you realize the amount of safety responsibility a soap maker has, I'll share a recent experience I had with a very good friend. (I'm in the US, do NOT sell, just make soap for a hobby)  My friend "B" has used dozens of my soap. She calls me several weeks ago, cursing me out because I gave her a "bad" bar of soap that caused her face and neck to turn red, peel, and swell her eyes shut.  Her sister tried to get her to sue me for medical bills. She wouldn't talk to me for weeks. 

Finally, she came to see me and brought the soap. I showed her my printed  recipe, explained superfat and why my soap had no excess lye, and washed my hands, arms and face with the same bar she used to show her it caused no reaction to me.   Since she had showered her entire body with the soap, but only her face and neck were affected, she started considering that instead of my soap, it could have been a reaction from a facial moisturizer or sunscreen she'd also used that day. 

Without my knowledge of soap chemistry, and without my soap making records, I wouldn't have been able to defend myself from her accusation.


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## carlyjones (Dec 26, 2016)

*grabs popcorn* 

Yikes


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## Relle (Dec 27, 2016)

Doutor2 said:


> About selling it: I sell it in a store of my mother to customers that are familiar to us...so...I don't care if it is illegal; the cost per soap 0,50€ is what I have calculated... I don't need a deep financial analysis... just to know if the value is right.



Don't bother asking for help, if you aren't going to take in, the advice given. It's a waste of everyone's time. You don't care if it's illegal, we don't care if you get into trouble - you have been told.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 27, 2016)

And if you don't care if it's illegal, I don't care to help you on any aspect of your soap making. I will not spoon feed you information when I know what it will be used for. 

I am more than happy to spoon feed people who are babies when in regards to soap making, but then they shouldn't be selling. If you want to sell, you should know all this information already.

Edit - by the way, what is the name and address of the shop?


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## Susie (Dec 27, 2016)

Yep, I'm done.  I tried to be helpful, but when someone asks for help, then states that they are going to ignore it, they can't be helped.  

By the way, no, your soap is not worth what you are charging for it.  And you are breaking the law, so I hope your mother is not the one that suffers for your arrogance.


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## fuzz-juzz (Dec 27, 2016)

Mind boggling really...
You don't know how to properly make and cure soap and you're already selling.
And yet you say you don't care if it's illegal. 

Price is what you are selling your soap for. One euro, two or whatever, those poor customers aren't getting the "value" they are paying for.

I don't think you're worth advice and time SMF have given you... sorry.


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## Relle (Dec 29, 2016)

Just letting members know, this person has been in on the 29th Dec, but has not posted, so obviously they have read the above posts, but have not bothered to answer.


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## Susie (Dec 29, 2016)

Thank you for letting us know.  

It is sad when someone who could make excellent soap chooses not to.  And the worst part is that he/she is risking their mother getting fined and possibly losing a business license without remorse.


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## Relle (Dec 30, 2016)

Susie said:


> Thank you for letting us know. We know when someone has been online and we still see you if you are hiding.



So here's what I've come up with for those of you that spend time and reply to these people. If you see that one of Admin/Mods puts up this -
:headbanging:


with no other comment, that means it's a waste of your time. You can choose to reply if you wish or not, but it's usually one we have found will not listen.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 30, 2016)

So I won't be getting the name of the shop? [emoji56]


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## CaraBou (Dec 30, 2016)

I'd just like to know the name of the country and the size of the city and shop.  I think there can be very different realities from what many of us experience from our places in the world. I'm not excusing it, instead just trying to understand it and deal with it more humanely and effectively.


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## Susie (Dec 30, 2016)

CaraBou said:


> I'd just like to know the name of the country and the size of the city and shop.  I think there can be very different realities from what many of us experience from our places in the world. I'm not excusing it, instead just trying to understand it and deal with it more humanely and effectively.



Before I take what you said in the worst possible way, could you please explain what you mean by the last sentence?  I understand that this could be a tiny little town where resources are limited, and enforcement of regulations is unlikely.  However, I am really trying to find an excuse for someone risking their mother's way of making a living without any success.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 30, 2016)

Quite - stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry family is one thing, but illegally selling cosmetics in the EU would be stretching the boundaries of which crimes one can commit when money is tight


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## CaraBou (Dec 30, 2016)

Nevermind. Just get the noose out in case he comes back.


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## lenarenee (Dec 30, 2016)

Carabou, I think I understand a little of where you 're coming from. 

Perhaps this person was simply ignorant. Or very young. Very isolated, therefore inexperienced with the ways of the world. Desperate to help bring in income. 

Or maybe they were arrogant. Thoughtless. Uncaring.

Don't know.

But I'm wondering if we missed a chance here. Some of us came on rather strong. (well, I know we weren't rude, but a newcomer....?)

Is there a better way of educating people here? Of writing our disapproval in a "tone" that can even get an arrogant, thoughtless, uncaring person to think? 

I don't know about you, but when someone starts talking to me with any hint of condescension, my stubborn gets up and my ears turn off.


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## Steve85569 (Dec 30, 2016)

CaraBou said:


> I'd just like to know the name of the country and the size of the city and shop.  I think there can be very different realities from what many of us experience from our places in the world. I'm not excusing it, instead just trying to understand it and deal with it more humanely and effectively.



There is the chance - however small - that this person has been ignorant of any of the right things to do and is not posting now because they are ashamed of their behavior.

The argumentative attitude may have been caused by the huge amount of misinformation that is available on the internet. It is easy to forget what a jewel this sight is.

Then again the OP has disappeared so they may in fact be the type of individual that this sight tries to correct and reform.

JMHO,
Steve

lenarenee types faster than I do. Sorry about the double post.


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## Hazel (Dec 30, 2016)

CaraBou said:


> I'd just like to know the name of the country and the size of the city and shop.  I think there can be very different realities from what many of us experience from our places in the world. I'm not excusing it, instead just trying to understand it and deal with it more humanely and effectively.



I'm not going to name the city or country but I will say the IP comes up as a tourist town (beaches, sailing and scuba diving) in Europe.

I agree we don't know this person's circumstances and I can empathize with someone who really needs to bring in more money. It's also difficult to express the importance of testing with someone online. You can have the best of intentions but the person still  may perceive it as antagonistic. The only thing I can think of is people not post when they see someone has already replied. If it's just limited to one person giving advice; then it won't come across as being ganged up on.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 31, 2016)

And there is an indicator of someone who isn't willing to learn - coming to a site full of people who know what this person needs to know but refusing all good information. If they then can't take the harshness that follows, it is their loss - they missed a chance. They cannot claim ignorance as people had cleared that up. But they can claim pride and stubbornness at the very least, as they refused the good advice and haven't replied at all. Personally, I think we dodged a bullet.


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## topofmurrayhill (Dec 31, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> And there is an indicator of someone who isn't willing to learn - coming to a site full of people who know what this person needs to know but refusing all good information. If they then can't take the harshness that follows, it is their loss - they missed a chance. They cannot claim ignorance as people had cleared that up. But they can claim pride and stubbornness at the very least, as they refused the good advice and haven't replied at all. Personally, I think we dodged a bullet.



Nice spin. But we don't know how willing he would have been to learn if he were allowed to hang out here. We don't know this person at all. These people are judged and dispatched in short order. Frankly I think it's disgraceful. How many words have been churned out here? The are 30 posts, only 2 of which are from the OP, including the original question, which I assume was asked in good faith, and one short response.

He wasn't "getting it" fast enough for peoples' liking, but he wasn't hostile. He was getting ganged up on. Doesn't take much analysis to explain why he's gone. It's one of those opportunities where everyone whips out their righteous indignation as if it's going to fix the world. If we dodged a bullet, whatever that means, the OP sure didn't.

We had a newbie here maybe 3 months back, really nice and eager to learn, very intelligent too. Would have been a good contributor. Didn't say or do a damned thing wrong, except one or two of the same people holding the bullhorn in this thread treated her badly for no reason I could discern, and by the time they were through she left forever. I'm sure nobody noticed or cared. I got a thank you PM and she said she wouldn't be back because this wasn't the right place for her to learn. I went over all the threads again, and she was justified in leaving.

I remember someone being righteously hounded here who finally in frustration tried to explain her intentions and why the criticism wasn't warranted, making fair points in the process. Overnight her defense was removed, overly belligerent posts direct towards her were edited, and what remained just made her look bad. That encouraged a few more people to get their last licks in, and she never came back.

I've seen this to some extent before, but not usually as bad as here and not with moderator participation. I for one get where CaraBou is coming from.


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## Susie (Dec 31, 2016)

CaraBou, I will accept my share of the lashing for being rude.  But, in order for me to not repeat the error, please help me understand where to draw the line.  I was trying to be helpful in the long post.  I tried to explain exactly what was wrong with the recipe and process.  Is this too much information/critique for a new poster?  Should I stop at one point?  I know that saying that every part of what someone is doing is wrong can be overwhelming and make someone defensive.  

I hesitated to post that, but they needed to know how to correct it.  If it were me doing everything incorrectly, I would want all the information at once so I could read each part and process it over a few hours.  That is how I function.  So, I was trying to treat them like I would want to be treated.  

However, I am willing to learn a new way, as I understand that other people need information presented in a different way.  I just need you to let me know how to not repeat bad behavior.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 31, 2016)

It's not spinning - he hasn't been banned or anything like that. He can reply. It's his choice if he doesn't. 

People don't have to post help for those who ask a question. No one paid to do so. Questions are asked here because it is taken that those who post an answer are helping the asker. This is actually very nice of those who do the answering. It's free! When that time taken to help is ignored* then why should people a) be okay about that and b) keep quiet about their feelings on the matter?

Every forum has a general tone, which is why there are many forums on each subject. Some people love the dish, others don't. There are other soaping forums, too, and some people frequent many and some stick to just one. If the tone of the dish doesn't work for someone, they can try another. Same as any forum. 

Should many of the regular contributors change? Will they want to, or will they leave? Will these newbies fill the gaps? 

* if there was misunderstanding, the op didn't actually indicate that in anyway. There was no asking for clarification or explanation, simply ignoring the advice. Coupled with a direct promise to continue to break the law on selling soap, not to mention that the soap itself was poor quality, beggars belief.


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## topofmurrayhill (Dec 31, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It's not spinning - he hasn't been banned or anything like that. He can reply. It's his choice if he doesn't.
> 
> People don't have to post help for those who ask a question. No one paid to do so. Questions are asked here because it is taken that those who post an answer are helping the asker. This is actually very nice of those who do the answering. It's free! When that time taken to help is ignored* then why should people a) be okay about that and b) keep quiet about their feelings on the matter?
> 
> ...



Whatever you say, dude. Keep up the good work.


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## Susie (Dec 31, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Whatever you say, dude. Keep up the good work.



If there was ever a case of the pot calling the kettle black, this is it.  You have the unique ability to make our long time members want to leave.


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## topofmurrayhill (Dec 31, 2016)

Perfect. I suspected you two would be the first to respond. I mentioned two examples of things I witnessed in the vein of bullying newcomers, and each of you was responsible for one of them.


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## artemis (Dec 31, 2016)

> He wasn't "getting it" fast enough for peoples' liking, but he wasn't hostile. He was getting ganged up on. Doesn't take much analysis to explain why he's gone. It's one of those opportunities where everyone whips out their righteous indignation as if it's going to fix the world. If we dodged a bullet, whatever that means, the OP sure didn't.



So, I lurked around this site for months and months and witnessed overly harsh criticism for relatively small things. Like, a first time person (who may have never even used a forum before) getting slammed hard for necro-posting. Or in this case, after only two posts deciding that a person is unteachable. This sort of thing is why it took me so long to become a member, and why I still don't post questions. I am afraid that one example of my newb ignorance is going to result in assumptions being made not only about my practices as a soaper, but also about my intelligence and character as a human being. Who is the kettle and who is the pot makes no difference. I think the whole argumentative nature of some of these threads scares away more than just the OP on a given thread.  

It took me a long time to write this, and a long time to hit "send." I hope it is received in the way I intended-- simply from the point of view of a relatively new person here.
Thanks.


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## Susie (Dec 31, 2016)

artemis said:


> So, I lurked around this site for months and months and witnessed overly harsh criticism for relatively small things. Like, a first time person (who may have never even used a forum before) getting slammed hard for necro-posting. Or in this case, after only two posts deciding that a person is unteachable. This sort of thing is why it took me so long to become a member, and why I still don't post questions. I am afraid that one example of my newb ignorance is going to result in assumptions being made not only about my practices as a soaper, but also about my intelligence and character as a human being. Who is the kettle and who is the pot makes no difference. I think the whole argumentative nature of some of these threads scares away more than just the OP on a given thread.
> 
> It took me a long time to write this, and a long time to hit "send." I hope it is received in the way I intended-- simply from the point of view of a relatively new person here.
> Thanks.



This is constructive criticism.  It is appreciated.  I can learn how to handle things better.  Is there something in my long post specifically that I should not do again?  I am trying to help.  I am not trying to chase people away.



topofmurrayhill said:


> Perfect. I suspected you two would be the first to respond. I mentioned two examples of things I witnessed in the vein of bullying newcomers, and each of you was responsible for one of them.



At least some of us are willing to admit fault and learn better behavior.  Are you?


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## GeezLouise (Dec 31, 2016)

No comment on the specifics of this thread, other than to agree that I probably wouldn't ever ask for help here, just sharing my experience. My manner of communication tends to hurt people's feelings, and I tend to be far less careful with those I interact with regularly and occasionally still act like I must have the last word. My best behaviors come when talking with old, old, ladies so sometimes I try to rein myself in and ask myself if I'd talk to 100-year old Jane Doe down at the church that way.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 31, 2016)

artemis said:


> So, I lurked around this site for months and months and witnessed overly harsh criticism for relatively small things. Like, a first time person (who may have never even used a forum before) getting slammed hard for necro-posting. Or in this case, after only two posts deciding that a person is unteachable. This sort of thing is why it took me so long to become a member, and why I still don't post questions. I am afraid that one example of my newb ignorance is going to result in assumptions being made not only about my practices as a soaper, but also about my intelligence and character as a human being. Who is the kettle and who is the pot makes no difference. I think the whole argumentative nature of some of these threads scares away more than just the OP on a given thread.
> 
> It took me a long time to write this, and a long time to hit "send." I hope it is received in the way I intended-- simply from the point of view of a relatively new person here.
> Thanks.



Newb ignorance is never an issue.  When people think that they are knowledgeable when they are actually wrong and refuse to learn - that is different.  As I said before, no one HAS to help anyone else out with their soaping, it is done willingly but then of course it is never enjoyable to have that thrown back in your face. 

There are many people here who have learnt a very great deal from the forum and the members of SMF.  How can that be when the members are such monsters?  The difference is the attitude (perceived, as this IS only online and assumptions will be made) of the person asking the questions.

If this was a real life forum, or a room full of people discussing something, a little time listening and observing how people respond to certain things, how to formulate questions well (a few days of watching and it is clear that when asking for help, full recipe etc is expected) and some sort of introduction is handy.  Some people make a first post which is akin to throwing open the door and yelling a command at people.  Personally, I don't like that.  Not knowing forums or whatever is not really an excuse - no one would write a letter like that or make a call that way, and yet it is supposed to be okay in a forum?


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## earlene (Dec 31, 2016)

I joined here at SMF after reading many posts that gave me the impression that this was a supportive group, with kindness and gentleness valued.  Not coddling, necessarily, but it felt to me as though the members posting (in the threads I read before I joined) did so with respect and thoughtful consideration.  Before joining SMF posts came up a lot in my Google searches for answers to soaping questions and I always found the results to be beneficial in my soapmaking adventures.  So eventually I decided it would be to my benefit to join this forum.

It wasn't until I'd been here awhile that I saw some of what some of you have identified here regarding less-than-kind-and-caring attitudes.  It happened to me once and I had some personal difficulty with it, in so far as to attempt to delete a couple of my posts and remove some of my photos (which I was actually unable to do as completely as I had hoped.)  It was hurtful and personally distressing to me that I was treated in the way that I was.  But I also have a bit of background learning to accept that sometimes others just don't treat me as kindly as I feel that I should be treated and sometimes someone just plain doesn't like me and I have learned to accept that there is sometimes nothing I can do to change that person's feelings about me, so I have to accept it for what it is and move on.  Sometimes that means breaking ties with the person in particular, but sometimes it means adjusting by interacting differently with that person so I can continue in the activity (be it a job, an organizational membership, or whatever) that I want to continue to remain in actively.  There are always variables when it comes to making a decision about how to deal with someone I find 'difficult' to get along with, and sometimes it works out and we do get along.  Sometimes we don't.

I have been an admin member of an online forum and understand how difficult the group dynamics can be in an online group such as this.  The group dynamics can be extremely difficult to handle for the admin group, as well as for the rest of the membership.  I do not envy the admin group here their job when it comes to dealing with 'issues' such as this, that come up.  It is difficult sometimes to know where to the draw the line regarding when to foster open discussion and when to shut it down.  Whenever it happens, there are always some members who feel as though they are not being heard, or not being heard correctly according to their intent, and there are members who believe the mods aren't doing their job (as perceived by the members in question), and members who leave because they hate controversy, and members who love controversy and want to stir things up.  Sadly the latter does happen.  That's when the mods have to intervene and I am sure we don't even know what goes on behind the scenes between the mods in discussions about these issues.

Anyway, I really felt that the OP did have intentions to improve the soap.  Of all 6 posts made by this OP, all were about asking for help on how to improve the quality of their soap or to expand on the same.  In spite of some responses that seemed maybe overkill, the OP still said they would make many of the suggested changes.  Perhaps the 'I don't care if it's illegal' statement was a bit over-the-top as well, and yes, it was unfortunate.  But I agree that the group dynamic of bullying did play a part in this thread.  I feel badly for the OP, and anyone else who doesn't want to participate as a result of some of these types of interactions.


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## Relle (Dec 31, 2016)

earlene said:


> I have been an admin member of an online forum and understand how difficult the group dynamics can be in an online group such as this. The group dynamics can be extremely difficult to handle for the admin group, as well as for the rest of the membership.  I do not envy the admin group here their job when it comes to dealing with 'issues' such as this, that come up.  It is difficult sometimes to know where to the draw the line regarding when to foster open discussion and when to shut it down. Sadly the latter does happen. That's when the mods have to intervene and I am sure we don't even know what goes on behind the scenes between the mods in discussions about these issues.



I'm glad Earlene, you understand from personal experience, and acknowledge the behind the scenes discussions that go on, that only those who have been there know about. Discussions are going on ALL the time,  about all sorts of issues.


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## Hazel (Jan 1, 2017)

earlene - 

That was a thoughtful and articulate response. I'm sorry you were treated badly. I was given a cyber thumping when I was a new member and I was so upset I swore I'd never come back to this forum. After I calmed down, I reviewed the thread and realized it was rough but I could understand their side. Although, they could have been more tactful and less belligerent, I checked my ego and focused on what it taught me. I'm glad I did because I have learned so much from people on this forum. 

Now, just some of my thoughts after re-reading this thread -

When there isn't any physical or verbal cues, a comment which isn't intended to be critical may be perceived as antagonistic. Of course, having numerous people respond to your question; may be viewed as hostile even if they all intend their posts to be helpful. I know there have been many times I've posted something as a joke but the person was upset since she took it as a serious remark. I'm not one of the nice ones on this forum so awhile back I promised myself I would only post what I would say to someone's face. Admittedly, I'm not always successful as you can see in old posts. Also, the other admins/mods can tell you I can be extremely grumpy and vent to them.

Anyway, what I try to do is re-read what I've written several times to see how it looks in print rather than how it sounds in my head. I know it's frustrating to see posts by people who view soapmaking as an easy and fast way to make money and don't want to be told differently or follow safety guidelines. I don't have answers to this issue; other than the usual "treat others as you would want to be treated". 

I'm not saying this to criticize anyone and this isn't directed at anyone. It's just some thoughts I had while reading.

Happy New Year everyone!


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## CaraBou (Jan 1, 2017)

I am having difficulty writing because there are so many things to respond to (plus I’ve had champagne lol). And Doutor is/was likely faced with that too, especially if English is not the first language. Oh, perfect -- that's point #1.

Point #2: Don’t assume you know someone’s motives, thoughts, knowledge, experience, etc. Remember, “to assume makes an ass out of u and me.”

#3 There are commands all throughout this thread (and the many other threads that go this same way).  If you want people to listen, don't tell them what to do. Tell them what you do and why. Remember, EVERYONE is different. EVERYONE has different needs, desires, motivations, and learning processes.  And EVERYONE is in a different place than where you are now.

#4: The overall tone here was condescending to Doutor.  I see a fair amount of ridicule, actually.  Doutor clearly came here to learn -- see post #1, including the title. Also the other thread Doutor posted. Don't punish Doutor or anyone else for what you perceive as "sins" of predecessors.  

#5:  This is about soap, people!  Contrary to what we often think, soap does not make the sun rise or Earth spin. Nor do lives depend on it. We are not the law. Instilling guilt is completely unnecessary. Evoking fear is usually overkill too, with a notable exception for safety (like not wearing goggles or gloves with live lye).  

#6: Don't sweat the small stuff. Why banish someone (or their recipe) because they use 5% more of oil than you use? This does not make or break a recipe. Simple tweaks can come with time.  

#7: Not everyone checks the forum every day (see #4), or has time to process and respond to all of the information received even when they do check (#1). Rome wasn’t built in a day.  And people are not robots; just because you bombard them with information doesn’t mean they will implement on the hour. 

I come here to keep learning and to help others learn.  I think that’s the purpose of the site. I generally don’t respond to these types of threads but I can’t keep ignoring them either. 

Thanks to all who have stayed in the discussion. I especially appreciate those who have spoke up with specific experiences. This isn't easy but I think it is good.


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## IrishLass (Jan 1, 2017)

earlene said:


> I do not envy the admin group here their job when it comes to dealing with 'issues' such as this, that come up. It is difficult sometimes to know where to the draw the line regarding when to foster open discussion and when to shut it down.


 
I thank you for that, because it definitely feels like we walk a thin tightrope sometimes, what with all the different personalities and viewpoints that fill up a forum. 

I can't speak for my other fellow modmins or anyone else on the forum for that matter, but whenever any unpleasant 'issues' pop up (as they naturally will sooner or later), I confess that it bothers me enough to the point that I tend to spend the greater part of my day thinking about it and agonizing over how best to respond with words that will impart grace or something useful/helpful instead of imparting sour grapes or throwing fuel on the fire, while at the same time not compromising on any of the rules of the forum. Sometimes they clash and rank has to be pulled and its not always pleasant or easy to have to pull the plug on a conversation, but it's the right thing to do in order to maintain order/keep chaos in check. 

When you get down to the nitty-gritty, not a single one of us is immune from ever saying the wrong thing or taking something the wrong way and responding negatively. I myself can't count how many times I've stuck my foot in my mouth or have gone to bed not able to sleep because I regretted something I've said in the heat of the moment, even during those times when I'm certain it was justified. 

Knowing this about myself, in order to help keep the more ugly of my emotions from getting the best of me and ruining my day or even worse- someone else's day (which would ruin my day even more), I 've taken to doing something along the same lines as Hazel. Namely, I've gotten into the habit of writing out a first draft and sitting on it, and then re-reading whatever threads or posts in question later on, as well as my drafted response to them (and also talking/venting off steam to my fellow modmins in the secret modmin cave), before I decide to hit the 'send' button or decide to change my response. I can't count how many times I've read the intent of a post completely wrong and am so glad I did not hit 'send'. 

I wish I could say that all of my final responses are always the best they can possibly be, but they are not, and I apologize if ever a response of mine has caused pain to anyone. That has never been my intention.

Looks like Carabou and I were posting at the same time. I just read her post and I'd like to ditto her many fine points and say that I think they are a wonderful way to start off the new year.  


IrishLass


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## Hazel (Jan 1, 2017)

CaraBou and IrishLass - 

Excellent posts. This is a subject almost everyone can use a reminder of occasionally. I say almost everyone because there are some people who are friendly and kind all the time. If possible, I'd like to see both of your posts copied and stuck into the Announcement section. Would it be possible to merge them with IrishLass's awesome "SMF Culture and Tone" sticky?  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56833


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## CaraBou (Jan 1, 2017)

Thank you Hazel and IL, you two really are gems. My words don't need to be stuck. Just hoping there is a revived awareness that what and how we speak matters. I know we all have the best intentions and something grand to offer.  Here's another new year to do it


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## Hazel (Jan 1, 2017)

But your points are so well stated. You could edit the post a bit if you wish; but I think we need attention brought to a subject which is important to the SMF community. I know I was gone for a long time so I don't know how things may have changed. The forum was once known as a newbie friendly site where people could start out. I'd like for this reputation be maintained. If you're uncomfortable with the idea of re-posting your thoughts in this subject, then I'll just copy everyone's inspirational bits and put them in a doc as my reminder.

BTW, you're also a bad influence. I opened a bottle of wine awhile ago. I'm such a lightweight. I haven't even had two glasses and already I'm feeling a wee bit pixilated.


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## Relle (Jan 2, 2017)

Hazel said:


> I'm such a lightweight. I haven't even had two glasses and already I'm feeling a wee bit pixilated.


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## Susie (Jan 2, 2017)

I can get fully pixelated on one glass of wine.  I rarely drink, so I am a real lightweight when I do.  So I only drink at home when I am not planning to go anywhere.  It has never happened yet, but if I do need to go somewhere, I plan to get Uber or Lyft to drive me.


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## Kamahido (Jan 2, 2017)

"About selling it: I sell it in a store of my mother to customers that are familiar to us...so...I don't care if it is illegal; the cost per soap 0,50€ is what I have calculated... I don't need a deep financial analysis... just to know if the value is right."

This right here. The "I don't care" mentality. This is what really gets to me. As a Sheet Metal Journeyman I see this in more Apprentices than I would care to recount. They think because they are young and I am not, that somehow they know better than I.


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## Susie (Jan 2, 2017)

Yep, the "I don't care." attitude made me angry on his mother's behalf.  It also made me realize that he wanted validation for what he was doing rather than actually asking for help.


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## Marshall (Jan 2, 2017)

Just punting this out there. I work in a company that has a global foot print, as such I get to interact with folks that have varying knowledge of the English language.  The OP stated that all the customers she sells to are "familiar to us" somewhat indicating that she may know them fairly well. Is it possible that with this familiarity that the idea she was trying to convey with the statement "I don't care" was more of "it's not a concern as my customer base is small and we'll known to me"? 

Now to be honest, I took the OPs original statement just as everyone else did. It was only after following the thread and all the surrounding conversation that I began to wonder.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 2, 2017)

Indeed. Any thoughts that the op wanted to learn were stopped here - I don't care and don't want to be helped to figure things out, I just want to be handed information. That statement showed an aversion to learning!

While I believe I can be nicer in general, and will genuinely try to be so, I really do not think that this is a case in point.


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## CaraBou (Jan 2, 2017)

I do think that is a case in point. I would never single you out, but you just stepped in it.

"I don't care" is indeed in context with selling to those "familiar to us."  The two phrases are connected with the word "so", which means "therefore".  I would read no more into it than what it actually says. 
"I sell it in a store of my mother to customers that are familiar to us...so...I don't care if it is illegal"[/I]​
Hazel, I am certainly not ashamed of my words so use them as you see fit. I am sure they can be improved. I am fully vested in this forum as a lifetime member (I requested not to display the label), so/therefore I am interested in seeing a long term, positive cultural shift.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 2, 2017)

CaraBou said:


> I do think that is a case in point. I would never single you out, but you just stepped in it.
> 
> "I don't care" is indeed in context with selling to those "familiar to us."  The two phrases are connected with the word "so", which means "therefore".  I would read no more into it than what it actually says.
> "I sell it in a store of my mother to customers that are familiar to us...so...I don't care if it is illegal"[/I]​
> ......




That he will continue selling soap illegally and doesn't care if it is illegal or not? That is how I read it and I am not sure how else it can be taken.

Edit to add - I was also referring to the further part about not wanting to work out detailed costs and what the price should be, rather just being told "if the value is right" - if that was in context of "here is my reasoning, am I correct in that?" then I would be much happier. But it wasn't. As I have often said, if someone is selling then they need to be doing the leg work because a) they are going to be making money from it so they should do the work themselves and b) they need to know WHY and HOW things like that work. Just being given an answer helps in the very short term and that is why I won't help in that way when someone is selling.


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## Hazel (Jan 2, 2017)

This is such a difficult topic because I understand both sides. Yes, this person did demonstrate a disregard for safety, quality and laws. I also think Susie may be correct about this person's desire for validation. However, there could have been a better way of expressing concern about it. As I said earlier, I'm not criticizing anyone. I understand the frustration with people who don't care about learning the basics and making quality products. I've seen this a lot and I've been frustrated by it, too. 

I know everyone cares passionately about the reputation of handmade soap and wants to protect it. I've written a lot of posts I regret because later I realized I could have expressed things more diplomatically. I just don't think so many people needed to jump onto the thread even though everyone's contributions were relevant. Craig had a given a good reply and he covered the important points. I've given harsher replies in the past than Craig's post so I thought he was commendably restrained. After his post, replies could have kindly discussed the recipe and recommended this person read the Beginner's Soap forum. Then if this person only wanted to be spoon fed info, he/she would have moved onto another forum.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. I don't have anything more to say about it.


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## TeresaT (Jan 2, 2017)

Hazel said:


> This is such a difficult topic because I understand both sides. Yes, this person did demonstrate a disregard for safety, quality and laws. I also think Susie may be correct about this person's desire for validation. However, there could have been a better way of expressing concern about it. As I said earlier, I'm not criticizing anyone. I understand the frustration with people who don't care about learning the basics and making quality products. I've seen this a lot and I've been frustrated by it, too.
> 
> I know everyone cares passionately about the reputation of handmade soap and wants to protect it. I've written a lot of posts I regret because later I realized I could have expressed things more diplomatically. I just don't think so many people needed to jump onto the thread even though everyone's contributions were relevant.* Craig had a given a good reply and he covered the important points. *I've given harsher replies in the past than Craig's post so I thought he was commendably restrained. *After his post, replies could have kindly discussed the recipe and recommended this person read the Beginner's Soap forum.* Then if this person only wanted to be spoon fed info, he/she would have moved onto another forum.
> 
> Well, hindsight is 20/20. I don't have anything more to say about it.



Perhaps this can be a new rule? I try to stay away from these conversations after inadvertently chasing away an individual.  I did apologize for my thoughtlessness; however, it seems to have been too late.  

However, I still agree with many of the posters, if you don't want an honest answer, don't ask a question.  If you want validation, go ask your family and friends; they almost never tell the truth because they don't want to hurt your feelings.  A stranger will be more likely to lay it out for you because they don't have a dog in the fight.  (At least, that's the way I roll.)  It's hard to restrain myself sometimes, because I just say what I think.  People tend to not like honesty very much.  That's not just on this forum, that's in my whole life.  

I've learned over the years that (1) no one can make you feel anything.  If someone says (or writes) something that rubs you the wrong way, it is your problem, not theirs.  You have control over how you feel and act.  (2) If someone did say or write something that rubbed you the wrong way, it's up to you to define the problem and address it with the individual.  People are not mind readers, we can't determine if our "thoughtful advice" is "fighting words" to you.  I believe to storm away and sulk or to quit participating in a forum because someone hurt your feelings is juvenile behavior.  It is one thing if you are a direct target of bullying; however, no one here is a bully and no one here is targeting any other individual.  If you can't tell yourself, "that guy's just being a bonehead and doesn't deserve my time," then maybe you have some growing to do. We all have bonehead moments.  There are a lot of different personalities here (like in the real world).  Not everyone is going to get along with everyone, agree with everyone, or like the way everyone presents themselves.   To walk away from a forum that can offer you a wealth of knowledge and information for free because one or two people hurt your feelings, in my opinion, is silly.  It goes right back to that first comment:  only you can control how you feel.  Someone's thoughtless words are more of a reflection of themselves than they are of you.  (And yes, I say lots of thoughtless things.  Frequently.)


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## mrsserena (Jan 2, 2017)

I think it would be nice if you could assume positive intent, particularly if English is a second language. I deal with a lot of people internationally, and often the tone of their writing does not match the intent. 

I too am hesitant to ask questions here, it seems that a lot of members jump on people that don't know instead of gently guiding.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 7, 2017)

*My compliments*



Doutor2 said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'm going to explain what I do to make soap and I would like to have some advices from you to get some improvements.
> 
> ...



To be perfectly honest, except for your technique, I really don't see anything wrong with your recipe.
Every body is bashing you but just because your recipe has a high cleansing value on a lye calculator doesn't mean that it is going to strip your skin and dry it out. I use turkey red castor oil, so I don't know if it is the same as castor but it actually holds in moisture and it does create more bubbles at 10%. I've just recently changed that on my recipes too with great success.
So, you have a high cleansing value but your castor will hold in the moisture and your palm is for hardness.
I have some recipes that are this high (in the cleansing dept) and they work great. There is no dryness. But however, we have made 100% pure lard soap and you would think that would be great for conditioning. However it dried out my hands like I had been the the water for 2 hours. It took 6x to wash with my other bar of soap before I could get that feeling off. So just because it has a high cleansing value means nothing. His castor makes up for it. Come to think of it, I might try it for myself.


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## IrishLass (Nov 7, 2017)

Iwannasoap- unfortunately, Douter 2 has not been on the forum since December of 2016 (not even to lurk), and will therefore not be able to benefit from your above post addressed to them today.

You do, however, bring up a good point that a high cleansing value on SoapCalc doesn't necessarily mean that a soap will be drying to a person.... 

For example, the 2 main formulas that I make the majority amount of time have cleansing values of 19 and 21 respectively, but they work quite well and are non-drying to me and my small pond of peeps (I don't sell- my peeps are my family, friends and myself).......but that's not to say that my formulas will be non-drying across the board to everyone, because everyone's individual skin-types are different. For some, lots of coconut works great, but for others- not so much. For some, lots of lard works great, but for others like you yourself found out- not so much, etc... The one making the soap always needs to make sure and test to see what kind of formulas work best for their own individual skin-needs or likes/dislikes, not to mention the needs and likes/dislikes of their chosen recipients. 

Case in point- I figure I must've spent a couple of years making and then testing several different formulas out on my family, friends and myself before I settled upon what became my two main formulas (one all-veggie formula, and the other made with lard/tallow). The reason they became my 2 main formulas was because, unlike all of my other 'hit or miss' formulas that came before- ie., some found certain of them to be great, but others found them to be either "too drying", or "not bubbly enough", or "too goopy", or "too soft", etc.....- they were the first two that were finally unanimously agreeable to all my peeps.

Moral of the story- always test to see what works best for _you and yours_.


IrishLass


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## jcandleattic (Nov 7, 2017)

I agree. My main recipe is high in CO and in blind usage tests by soapmakers, and civilians alike, they could not tell that the there was a high % of CO in there. 

In fact, one of the soapers who INSISTED that she could not use any bar of soap with CO in a % higher than 5%, said there must not be any CO in my bar at all because it was so mild, and she loved it. 

Once I told her there was over 20% in there, she basically called me a liar and stopped communicating with me. LOL 

Soapcalc numbers mean nothing to me, and I stopped paying any attention to them years ago, when formulating a new recipe. Of course, I rarely formulate anything new at this stage of my soaping career. Sometimes as experiments in very low batches, but it is rare, especially since I masterbatch at 200+lbs at a time.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 7, 2017)

Thanks for your opinion.  I appreciate it. I do test however, I put soap in the bathroom where I work and tell them all to tell me any complaints about it. I only want to hear the complaints so I can improve it. My wife and I have been at it for 2 years now and so far I'm only hearing "Put back this bar."" I like the last one", Basically I'm hearing nothing but requests because all of them are good. Its just the certain fragrances they like and let me know.
The most difficult thing for me so far was that it took me a year just to learn correctly the lye and water amount and how to calculate the lye versus the oils. I really don't need a calculator now. If I do use it its to see the acid amounts and the claims for cleaning and conditioning.
Getting back to taking a year to get it right,
The terms " Full water" and "discounted water" should be banned from all soapers forums because that really messed me up!
Full water implies there is a max amount - Little did I know there isn't a max amount but if there was is that when you start discounting. And! Discounted from What?
To me, discounted water is going negative past zero on the number line and in soaping that zero mark begins at a 50 50 lye and water solution and that is one thing I don't go past. I might add a little water and make it 476ppt (50 oz loaf would be 16 additional grams of water to make it 476ppt) but it really puzzled me from the beginning the terms full water and discounted water.
But we have gone from confusion to having 13 recipes on my spreadsheet and I can change any amount at anytime to any size loaf while at the same time calculate cost and do it quicker then a lye calculator. I've read some of the posts and a few have this problem.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 8, 2017)

Part of that is your take on the terminology. Discounted prices, for example, don't mean negative prices, do they? If so, I'll come to the sales where you live and get paid to take something away!

They certainly aren't overly helpful once you get away from water as % of oils, though (which should be sooner rather than later). But for beginners using that method and various recipes where more or less water can be helpful, it's usually a good starting point


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## Susie (Nov 8, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Thanks for your opinion.  I appreciate it. I do test however, I put soap in the bathroom where I work and tell them all to tell me any complaints about it. I only want to hear the complaints so I can improve it. My wife and I have been at it for 2 years now and so far I'm only hearing "Put back this bar."" I like the last one", Basically I'm hearing nothing but requests because all of them are good. Its just the certain fragrances they like and let me know.
> The most difficult thing for me so far was that it took me a year just to learn correctly the lye and water amount and how to calculate the lye versus the oils. I really don't need a calculator now. If I do use it its to see the acid amounts and the claims for cleaning and conditioning.
> Getting back to taking a year to get it right,
> The terms " Full water" and "discounted water" should be banned from all soapers forums because that really messed me up!
> ...



Your lack of understanding of proper soaping terminology does not make the terminology any less correct.  The onus to understand the terminology rests on the reader.  You should not have made *any* soap without understanding the terminology.  

And you saying this, "*I really don't need a calculator now. If I do use it its to see the acid amounts and the claims for cleaning and conditioning.*",  tells me that you still do not know what you are doing, or you lack the correct terminology to describe what you are actually doing.


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## Galaxy (Nov 8, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Thanks for your opinion. <snip>



Different oils require a different amount of lye to turn them into soap.  You can't just say "well olive oil takes 0.1353g lye to saponify 1g of oil, so coconut oil is probably close (it's not, 0.1910)."

Please use a lye calculator before making every batch.  It takes 30 seconds.  It's not a game - if you screw it up, your soap will hurt someone.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 9, 2017)

Susie said:


> Your lack of understanding of proper soaping terminology does not make the terminology any less correct.  The onus to understand the terminology rests on the reader.  You should not have made *any* soap without understanding the terminology.
> 
> And you saying this, "*I really don't need a calculator now. If I do use it its to see the acid amounts and the claims for cleaning and conditioning.*",  tells me that you still do not know what you are doing, or you lack the correct terminology to describe what you are actually doing.



I want to clarify myself. I made my own. I do not need to get on line and do it. What I see on a spreadsheet is much faster and more precise in more ways that you can see on a website. Now that I'm done with it, I can create more soap in the same size loaf which lasts longer. What I know now, takes some people years to realize using a soap calculator. It only took me 2 minutes of seeing on a spreadsheet. Now that I know what I know, I'm just occupying my time correcting mistakes, and proving them wrong, and most importantly learning. I have much to learn mainly in the design area and I'm not done yet!



Galaxy said:


> Different oils require a different amount of lye to turn them into soap.  You can't just say "well olive oil takes 0.1353g lye to saponify 1g of oil, so coconut oil is probably close (it's not, 0.1910)."
> 
> Please use a lye calculator before making every batch.  It takes 30 seconds.  It's not a game - if you screw it up, your soap will hurt someone.



I made my own on a spreadsheet and I can work it out on paper if I want to. I can calculate any size, any amount of oils, any percentage, and any oil much faster then a website since I know the SAP values. It also tells me that the more water you use in making soap, the less oil and lye you use to turn into soap. It is very accurate and I don't have near the problems I use to especially with soap freezing up on me.

Thanks for your concern though. I actually make very good soap. It is in the design department that could use some work. My best 2 loafs right off the bat I can think of is one that I made look like wood (cedar wood EO) and one that looked like the sky the day of the eclipse recently. It actually had the sun peeking out of the clouds with a blue background. I called it Picasso's eclipse.
I do have pics that I might post.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Part of that is your take on the terminology. Discounted prices, for example, don't mean negative prices, do they? If so, I'll come to the sales where you live and get paid to take something away!
> 
> They certainly aren't overly helpful once you get away from water as % of oils, though (which should be sooner rather than later). But for beginners using that method and various recipes where more or less water can be helpful, it's usually a good starting point



I hate to tell you this but discounted prices DOES mean negative numbers.
LOL.
Look at this way becasue this is actually what is happening when you discount
Original price: $5
Discounted: -$1.25
Your used to seeing it like this (5-1.25=3.75)
But what you are actually doing is this
(+5)(-1.25)= 3.75
The discounted number IS negative!
lol


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 10, 2017)

But as you quoted me - discounted prices do not mean negative PRICES, do they? Please don't simply answer a question by changing a word in order to suit your answer.


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## MorpheusPA (Nov 10, 2017)

In my case, I zapped together a VB.NET program to manage oils, standard recipes (I really only have six), colorants, additives, and batches.  It auto-generates labels since I always list ingredients just in case somebody's allergic to something.

OK, "zapped" is a misnomer, I'm still doing alpha debugging...

It's no Soapmaker 3, but it only cost me time instead of $90, and I'm a hobbyist, not selling.

Regardless of where you're getting your recipe, it's simply important that you do have one.

Keep in mind that most people, asked for criticism, simply won't.  My mother refuses to criticize any bar of soap unless I push.  'It's fantastic!'  'So you liked that scent and lather?'  'Well...'  I mostly never hear any feedback from anybody but my incredibly negative cousin, who hates anybody and everything in contact with her.

As far as the terminology...learn it and don't worry about your personal interpretations.  In any hobby or profession, terminology will exist that was grandfathered in, created and later applied to a not-quite-so-applicable case, or simply exists the way it is for no good reason.  It merely exists and has to be learned.

[quote="iwannasoap](+5)(-1.25)= 3.75[/quote]

The discounted number is positive; it's +3.75.  The discount, which is removed from the full price (5) number can be thought of as the addition of a negative number, or as the subtraction of a positive number.  It's really very relative, but fortunately, addition is commutative and we don't have to concern ourselves very much if we phrase it that way.


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## cerelife (Nov 10, 2017)

8 pages of posts...
Maybe I'm missing something or maybe I just have really thick skin?
The first couple of years that I belonged to this forum there was a moderator (who is no longer here for whatever reason) whom I considered my own personal 'Regina George' - "Mean Girls" reference for anyone who hasn't seen the movie. I often felt personally victimized by her; and once she had something negative to say, others seemed to feel free to jump on the bandwagon with their own negative comments (many times not even reading my original post to see what I was _actually_ asking about!) 
Was it hurtful? Well sure, of course it was. And some of it was unjust - as in someone posting: "I need you to stop selling your soap NOW until you have more than 6 months experience!" UMMMM, if she had actually read my original post she would have seen that I hadn't sold one single bar of soap to date and wasn't intending to anytime soon, but she just _had_ to get her 2 cents in since the moderator came down hard on me.
But I'm still here. This is a great forum and I'm proud to be a member. Most of the people here are incredibly helpful, and I hope that I occasionally post helpful replies of my own.
Will you get your feelings hurt in this forum? Maybe...but if you truly want to grow and learn as a soapmaker, it's totally worth it


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## SherylG (Nov 10, 2017)

Well, I thought long and hard about posting this but I have to speak up in the hopes that it will be helpful. 

I belong to a lot of forums on various subjects on the net. I am new to this forum but I have read through a lot of it. I have rarely encountered such often confrontational, bossy, pushy and actually rude posts as I have seen here. However, I'm sure it's just due to some people not having the experience of working with the public and developing their communication and people skills. I don't think the posters could possibly mean for their posts to sound the way they do. It is often hard to understand a person's tone when it's just writing on the 'net. But many people don't realize this and take a post the wrong way.

I think everyone needs to realize that each poster here is just one insignificant voice out of millions on the 'net. A person posting on a forum can't control anyone, give them orders to obey, tell them what to do...so just chill. Why let some poster on a forum on the net upset you or make you angry? Why let someone ruin your day and mood, someone who probably even lives in another country, that you will likely never in your life come in contact with, has absolutely no knowledge of who you are and no right to tell you what to do with your soap, time or life whatsoever. Why does it matter so much what anyone else does? 

Realize that some people just have to learn things the hard way and other people have to learn that there is nothing you can do about it. Posting on a forum here is not going to change what another poster chooses to do with their soap. No poster here can control another person, give them orders, tell them what to do and expect obedience at all. Posters who do that are just upsetting themselves.

I would laugh out loud at someone who said to me on a forum that they needed me to stop what I'm doing right now! lol!  That's just nonsense. What on Earth would make that person think she could tell me what to do? lol. She's just a voice among millions on the 'net, possibly even in another country with no authority in my home whatsoever. 

So...why get annoyed with her for it? I would just laugh at anyone giving me an order like they expected it to be obeyed. lol. If I ask a question here and get a positive and direct answer to my question in simple terms from a helpful person, I'm happy. I just ignore anything else. I'm here to discuss soap making. That's what this forum is for and you will notice that my posts, except for this one, are positive and helpful, at least that's what I aim for. You will also notice that I just ignore anything else.

Now for some helpful advice. I used to work at the YMCA and this is what was drilled into us there: There is a positive way to say anything. We were strongly discouraged from saying things like..."Don't, Stop" etc. Instead of saying "Don't run", say "Please walk". Instead of saying "Don't dive there!", say "Please dive in the deep end only."  Yes, even with lives at stake! It does get to be a habit of speaking after awhile. A good one. It's just a general guide. I realize that you can't do that all the time.

My motto on all my forums of various subject is this: Be positive and helpful or just don't post. If someone gets absolutely no response to a post, they will get the point. Also, as you may notice in the above paragraphs. I rarely said "You". My comments were directed to the general posters here. Directing a comment to a specific person or labeling someone with an adjective of any kind can be considered rude and should be avoided. If it's not actually helping someone, don't say it. 

I will probably get some negative responses to this but you know what? lol. I don't care and I will continue to post here and read here and enjoy discussing the making of soap. I will just ignore anything else. 

_
"I don't care what anyone else thinks...except cats. I want cats to like me.   "
_


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## SaltedFig (Nov 10, 2017)

I think there were only a couple of pages from today (it's a bit older, most of this thread).

Hey Sheryl, I got taught the same thing (on positives)! (Obviously I don't apply it as well as I should sometimes)

This example was one was given as a classic pool-side example, "remember to walk". Apparently the brain absorbs the words without the negative or positive ... so if the message is negative it goes in as a positive ... the keywords are stored somehow. The poolside example is ... If the words "Don't run" are used, running is remembered, whereas "Walk please", reinforces the memory of walking, and walking gets associated with being at the pool.


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## SoapTrey (Nov 10, 2017)

This has really been an enlightening thread to say the least_. This forum has probably lost so many potentially excellent members because they were simply driven off by aggressive, negative responses... whether well intended or not._


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 11, 2017)

The forum has also probably lost a lot of people who would bring nothing of value to the community, too.


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## SoapTrey (Nov 11, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The forum has also probably lost a lot of people who would bring nothing of value to the community, too.



Well you'll never know will you? While I agree with the premise of waiting and learning and knowing how to craft really good soap before selling, lye safety, understanding the applicable laws and such, liability insurance, etc. I personally don't think it's good for the forum to simply jump all over people who come here for the first time, sign up and ask what they deem a legitimate question from their perspective. I simply think there should be a bit more understanding from the 'pros' and instead of coming across negative and aggressive... maybe try being a bit nicer and not so blunt at first. There's plenty of time to be blunt. Being an internet forum tone is lost in translation, which someone who has never been here before will take the tone as negative.

I've personally witnessed several new members come here and be subjected to this, only to immediately leave and not come back. Is that what you want? Don't you want to build the community with people who enjoy coming here to learn?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 11, 2017)

I do. And the community is growing. Could it grow more quickly? Maybe, but then would it risk changing too much in how the community itself works? To the extent that what it was is gone? You see it happen now and then - a certain new member comes and lashes out, so some of the regular posters stop posting. Does this new member fill that void of giving that community feel and (more importantly) soaping knowledge? Very rarely, if ever. 

See, I don't want the membership list to grow just for the sake of it. I don't really take it on my shoulders if someone stops posting for whatever reason, unless I am personally in breach of the forum rules, which I have never been informed of.  Because if this community itself works a certain way, for better or worse, and someone doesn't like that way, then would they be a good addition to that community?


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## SudsanSoaps (Nov 11, 2017)

What I've noticed on here and maybe this isn't the place for it but... somebody asks a question or says something and the next 5-10 posts, it seems like, say the same thing. It was extremely irritating for me at first but I've come to ignore it. Seems to me like it could drive people away but idk. 

That is my opinion.


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## artemis (Nov 11, 2017)

SudsanSoaps said:


> What I've noticed on here and maybe this isn't the place for it but... somebody asks a question or says something and the next 5-10 posts, it seems like, say the same thing. It was extremely irritating for me at first but I've come to ignore it. Seems to me like it could drive people away but idk.
> 
> That is my opinion.


Ya, sometimes multiple people start responding at the same time. 

I have noticed that there are people who read the original post in a thread and post a heated response without checking the rest of the conversation to see if the issue has already been discussed thoroughly. Or, read only the last post or read until their hot button issue comes up...


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## SoapTrey (Nov 11, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I do. And the community is growing. Could it grow more quickly? Maybe, but then would it risk changing too much in how the community itself works? To the extent that what it was is gone? You see it happen now and then - a certain new member comes and lashes out, so some of the regular posters stop posting. Does this new member fill that void of giving that community feel and (more importantly) soaping knowledge? Very rarely, if ever.
> 
> See, I don't want the membership list to grow just for the sake of it. *I don't really take it on my shoulders if someone stops posting for whatever reason, unless I am personally in breach of the forum rules, which I have never been informed of.*  Because if this community itself works a certain way, for better or worse, and someone doesn't like that way, then would they be a good addition to that community?



I don't believe your missing my point, which is being nice to brand new users who are selling without knowing what they are doing and before we can assess what their true agenda is. I see a couple of others who seem to have this attitude as well. My bigger question would be (and it's rhetorical, because it seems to be tolerated), does the rest of the community feel the same?

Edit: This is not meant as personal attack on anyone. I'm just stating what I've observed, it's your rules.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 12, 2017)

As you're replying to thread where many people did just that, it would seem so. Even the forum guideline information threads say that, if you mention that you sell as a new soaper, don't be surprised to hear people say it's a bad idea. 

I don't agree that a pile-on (pig-pile, I think it's called in the US) is helpful all the time, but also if just one person said "I don't think you should be selling" and no one else did because it was already there, wouldn't that then suggest that only this one member thinks that the newbie shouldn't be selling?


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## Susie (Nov 12, 2017)

I am going to preface this statement with the fact that I do not sell soap.  So truly I have no monetary stake in this discussion.

However, bad soap being sold affects everyone.  We have people here who DO rely on soap sales for income.  My own (ex) in-laws would not use my hand made soap because someone sold bad, young soap.  Why did they sell it when it was bad and too young?  I don't know.  But maybe if someone had told them that they needed to take the time to learn how to make soap properly and wait for a proper cure, they might not have.  How remiss would we be then to not tell them not to sell soap until they knew what they were doing, and knew why a proper cure was important?

Then there are the people that do not want to know truth.  They want to brag about this or that.  Or they want to know the answer to THIS question only.  Not what makes that question irrelevant, or why that question truly exposes how little they know.  Nor do they want to know the rest of the info.  And they especially do not want to know why that idea is bad.  Should we kowtow to those people, or should we put true information out there for the lurkers and the people who really do want to know the true process and good practices?  Where do you think we should draw the line, exactly?  I am going to tell the truth.  I do not call anyone names, nor do I attack them personally.  I am simply trying to tell people how to make soap properly.


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## Dahila (Nov 12, 2017)

People if you are looking for advice and can not take the true, move to fb group, they post there so much nonsense you will fit there.  
Then if you want to get help stay here,  To be on forums sometimes you read what you do not like it,  
Newbies are a problem for professionals, They sell bad soap and that person is not going to give a try to another.  So I am losing potential customers,  Do you have any idea how difficult is to convince people that my soap is gentle and good? Tons of samples, which do not come free to me,  i had to sacrifice many bars of soap for sampling.  Many printed pages so I could put info on my small samples bag.
The market is very competitive and If you not up to it, take crocheting ....
The nonsense of "insulting" fragile newbies, just pissed me off,  You want to learn. give yourself a chance,  I am first time on forum that is so helpful , it is worth for me to support it,  We have tons of people sharing, their knowledge and you guys do not know internet and other forums if you think it is not newbies friendly... 
Excuse me. I see it everyday, people sell soap and have no idea what Superfat is,  I see it on markets.  Guy selling rancid (DOS) bars and he does not know that soap is garbage


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## cmzaha (Nov 12, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> I made my own on a spreadsheet and I can work it out on paper if I want to. I can calculate any size, any amount of oils, any percentage, and any oil much faster then a website since I know the SAP values. It also tells me that the more water you use in making soap, the less oil and lye you use to turn into soap. It is very accurate and I don't have near the problems I use to especially with soap freezing up on me.
> 
> Thanks for your concern though. I actually make very good soap. It is in the design department that could use some work. My best 2 loafs right off the bat I can think of is one that I made look like wood (cedar wood EO) and one that looked like the sky the day of the eclipse recently. It actually had the sun peeking out of the clouds with a blue background. I called it Picasso's eclipse.
> I do have pics that I might post.


 I find just one little problem with the comment, "since I know the SAP value, without testing each and every batch of oils you use you do not know the actual SAP value, which also changes with age of the oil, so we all work with average SAP values per oil. SAP values are not set in stone.



Dahila said:


> People if you are looking for advice and can not take the true, move to fb group, they post there so much nonsense you will fit there.
> Then if you want to get help stay here,  To be on forums sometimes you read what you do not like it,
> Newbies are a problem for professionals, They sell bad soap and that person is not going to give a try to another.  So I am losing potential customers,  Do you have any idea how difficult is to convince people that my soap is gentle and good? Tons of samples, which do not come free to me,  i had to sacrifice many bars of soap for sampling.  Many printed pages so I could put info on my small samples bag.
> The market is very competitive and If you not up to it, take crocheting ....
> ...


 I admit I am one of the first to say not to sell to soon, and admit I am one that probably did. I will take pride that I never sold "bad" soap and still have some of my original customers, but I did it out of desperation after losing our company. Would I sell the same soap today? Nope, it was good but not great. But there are people that literally sell "bad soap", and it does hurt all of us sellers. I recently watched a girl in her booth at one of my markets trying to de-mold a soap. When she finally got it out of the mold, she put it out to sell. This soap was so soft it stuck in the corners of the mold. I have seen soaps I could stick my finger through for sale at markets, what do you think that does for sales. So anyone that wants to learn proper soapmaking stick around and learn, there is a wealth of info here. If you want sugarcoating you may not want to stick around. I learned many lessons when I started on, over at The Dish forum and those gals do not sugar coat  But over there you will find a wealth of info for lotion making with no sugar icing!


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## SherylG (Nov 12, 2017)

I think you should give people as much *helpful *criticism as you are able to, if they ask for it. It should always be polite and respectful. Everyone is deserving of respect. Nothing that happens here should be personal. 

Polite, respectful, positive, friendly and helpful advice is always welcome. 
Most people are not going to listen to anything else and you will just alienate those who could be helped.

Gentle, respectful and friendly prodding works much better than a hammer.


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## cmzaha (Nov 12, 2017)

SherylG said:


> I think you should give people as much *helpful *criticism as you are able to, if they ask for it. It should always be polite and respectful. Everyone is deserving of respect. Nothing that happens here should be personal.
> 
> Polite, respectful, positive, friendly and helpful advice is always welcome.
> Most people are not going to listen to anything else and you will just alienate those who could be helped.
> ...


Great in theory, but there are some that will never take any criticism as helpful. It is frankly very hard to be polite, sweet, sugary yada yada when we see many come in state bad info and get made when corrected. You want to learn, pull up the big girl, boy panties and learn. When I first started I had a gal in another forum pick apart my website and tell me in the forum what was wrong. I simply blocked her after telling her I did not pay her to police my website, did not move on. There was just to much knowledge available for me. On top of that I was new to any forums, but I survived and learned.


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## Millie (Nov 12, 2017)

I finally read through this whole thread and necro-liked a bunch of posts from all sides of the debate. I can be a hothead here at times, and I am glad you all put up with me! 

I appreciate a few blunt, direct responses (here and in life) followed by kindness and helpfulness. If I am doing something wrong, I want to know right away so I can fix it! Otherwise I am left with the shame of having repeatedly done something wrong for ages, because no one has had the guts to be direct with me.

I hope those here who are able to keep a level head in the hot button threads will step in sooner to help soften the impact of our direct replies. There are often beautiful, pacifying responses toward the end of these threads - thank you! I will try to craft more of these responses myself.

I often see those who wish to be kind admonishing the behavior of the hotheads, but it might help the original posters more to lead by example and direct some of that helpful spirit on them personally ie, "now that this issue has been covered, welcome, and how can I help with your original question?" Otherwise the effect is that we are all just bashing each other (with rainbows and love of course). 

Yup, I totally see what I just did there. Love y'all


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## psfred (Nov 12, 2017)

Lol, I'm a scientist by training.  Believe me, I've not seen more than a post or two here that was anything like presenting my first research.

Every question I've had here was answered nicely.  I've seen lots of "beginner" questions answered very nicely and with good, if occasionally blunt, information.

I have seen a few new members post multiple versions of the same question in various forums, refuse to agree with the answers they were given or the suggestions offered, then complain about the "rude" people on the forum.  

Adults can manage critical remarks, especially when they are true.

Polite always works, but polite doesn't mean agreeing with people when they are wrong, it means telling them they are wrong without a personal attack, and I've seen VERY little of that from long term members.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 12, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> I find just one little problem with the comment, "since I know the SAP value, without testing each and every batch of oils you use you do not know the actual SAP value, which also changes with age of the oil, so we all work with average SAP values per oil. SAP values are not set in stone.


I use the SAP value from the manufacturer of the oil that I use. That is best! I buy all my oils from the same place. For instance, your olive oil that you use might be averaged out at .131. The oil I use is .135
Other wise, you are just using averaged out SAP values and it might not necessarily correct.
Getting back to OO. A soap calculator might or might not be correct.
Some lists that you find list OO at .131
Some calc's that you use might list Palm Kernel flakes at .176 (Wholesale Supplies Plus)
My manufacturer lists my Palm Kernel at .178
I am not trying to sound like a know it all but in my opinion it is best to get that value from the manufacturer or wholesaler thats in that business.


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## psfred (Nov 12, 2017)

SAP will vary with source on any oil or fat, and sometimes with season, phases of the moon, or whatever.

A batch number will be more accurate than any calculator with average values, of course, but unless you are trying to make near zero superfat and don't want to age your soap, it won't matter very much.  There is probably more variation in lye purity than in SAP value from the average values.

Keep a reasonable superfat level and you won't need to worry about very small differences in SAP values.


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## cmzaha (Nov 12, 2017)

psfred said:


> SAP will vary with source on any oil or fat, and sometimes with season, phases of the moon, or whatever.
> 
> A batch number will be more accurate than any calculator with average values, of course, but unless you are trying to make near zero superfat and don't want to age your soap, it won't matter very much.  There is probably more variation in lye purity than in SAP value from the average values.
> 
> Keep a reasonable superfat level and you won't need to worry about very small differences in SAP values.


^^^ yep and there are times you cannot get a SAP value even from the supplier and/ or manufacturer. In soap calc I superfat at 1% which usually works out at 4% in Soapee. So without the exact Sap at the time of use and lye purity you cannot truly know what your superfat is. I do not like free oil going down my drains, but I do know even at 0% superfat I am not assured all oil is saponified only that I have less than many soaps


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