# Rosin soap



## Pears

Hello, I'm new here, happy new year. I'd like to make some rosin soap but I've read that it's better to make the sodium rosinate first and then add it to the soap. I have a couple of old recipes for making sodium rosinate but they are very vague and probably not reliable. How would you quantify how much sodium hydroxide is in a quart or gallon of "strong lye" after all? If anyone has a more contemporary recipe or guideline, I'd really appreciate it. I'll paste the old recipes that I have below. Thanks.



> Soap Without Grease.--To four gallons of strong lye add ten pounds of distilled rosin, or eight pounds of pine gum, not distilled and free from trash is better; boil steadily until there is no rosin to be seen, and if the quantity of lye is not sufficient add more, and continue to add until the rosin is out, and boil until it makes a brown jelly soap.  I have used this soap for a year, and it is equal to the best soap made with grease.





> To eight quarts of strong lye, add three pints of pine gum or three pounds of rosin; boil for five or six hours, stirring well to keep the fluid from burning at the bottom.  A little wheat flour added will make it hard, if desired.





> Rosin added in the soap must not be more than 33%. One secret to adding   rosin is to make the tallow soap first before adding the rosin soap in   it. This will result in a better quality of soap.


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## Lindy

Rosin is Pine Tar which is available at any farm supply store.  I make Pine Tar soaps and I recommend that you keep your %age down to no more than 5%.  I add it to my hard oils & butters to melt down, then add my soft oils and away I go.  Because of our modern methods we don't have to give it any special treatment.

I haven't heard of anyone making a 100% rosin soap, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.


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## Pears

Hi Lindy, thankyou for the reply. I believe that rosin and pine tar both contain the saponifiable resin acids. I know that rosin is a byproduct of distilling turpentine from pine resin and pine tar is made by heating the pine wood itself. I think you're right about keeping the percentage in the soap quite low. Pure sodium rosinate is a viscous liquid, so too much would soften the end soap. I've just found an interesting article, which states that no more than 15% rosin should be added.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53151356/38/TALLOW-ROSIN-SOAPS

I'd like to make a transparent soap with a small amount of rosin but I'm new to transparent soap making so I might first try to make pure sodium rosinate and just add it to some melt and pour soap. The article mentions "12  gallons  of  lye of  30B. are needed for every 100 lbs. of rosin". Can anyone tell me how much sodium hydroxide to add to water to make 30B (30 bome?). Maybe someone has a more contemporary guideline. Thanks.


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## Lindy

That is fascinating!  Thank you for the link - I have downloaded it to read over time.

I would love to find a source for the lighter "rosin"....

I wish I could help more.....


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## Pears

I'm glad you found it interesting. The reason that I thought that 30B meant 30 bome is because I found some old rosin soap recipes that mentioned using 38 bome. I'll link them below. I now believe that bome is simply an old term for the weight for weight percentage of the solution, as most lye solutions used in soap making are somewhere around 30%. 

If "12  gallons  of  lye of  30B. are needed for every 100 lbs. of  rosin", I calculate that if it's imperial gallons (4.5L), for 1 liter of  30% lye solution, 833 grams of rosin are needed. If it's US gallons  then for 1 liter of 30% lye, exactly 1kg of rosin is needed. I'm guessing that it would be better to go with the higher amount of rosin as a precaution, as you would when superfatting a regular soap. 

http://www.lformula.com/index.php?part=him001&page=017
http://www.lformula.com/index.php?part=him001&page=011


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## Lindy

What country does that site originate from do you know?  I saw in the top right that it has been translated to English....


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## Pears

It's a russian site.

http://www.lformula.ru/index.php?part=him001&page=011

I  now know that the proper translation is Baumé. According to the book I  linked to before "There are 23- lbs. of caustic soda wanted for making  10 gallons of lye of 30 degrees Baume."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53151356/Make-Soap-and-Candles#page=40

So  for the 12 gallons of 30B lye called for in the rosin soap recipe, 27.6  lbs of sodium hydroxide would be needed. That equates to 276 grams of  sodium hydroxide per liter of lye, which is exactly enough for 1kg of  rosin. Or 833g of rosin, if it was imperial gallons and not US gallons.


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## Lindy

Yeah I figured the measurements would be imperial due to the nature of the recipe and stuff.  Have you located a source for the rosin yet?


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## Pears

There are lots of sources on ebay but it helps to type in colophony instead of rosin, to avoid all of the violin rosin being offered on there. You can also buy it in powder form, to save having to crush it up yourself. Pears soap use to be a dark amber color, suggesting that the rosin used was quite dark to begin with. Being a fan of the old Pears soap, I'd prefer to make a fairly dark amber soap. Here's an interesting piece...



> Rosin varies in color, according to the age of the tree from  which the turpentine is drawn and the degree of heat applied in distillation,  from an opaque, almost pitch-black substance through grades of brown and yellow  to an almost perfectly transparent colorless glassy mass. The commercial grades  are numerous, ranging by letters from A, the darkest, to N, extra pale, superior  to which are W, window glass, and WW, water white varieties, the latter having  about three times the value of the common qualities.


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## Lindy

Wow!  I use the almost pitch-black stuff.  Going looking...

By the way - thank you!  Some great information came to light in this thread.  Well done!


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## Pears

Thanks, I try to be thorough in my research. Rosin can be black but it's usually dark to light amber in color. I think that yours might be pitch black because it's pine tar.

You might like to read the preface of that book. It reveals that the author and his contemporaries were from the US. It's therefore fairly safe to assume that the measurements were in US gallons, as it had been the standard measurement in the US since the early 19th century. The book was written in the late 19th century.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53151356/Make-Soap-and-Candles#page=7


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## Lindy

Thanks - mine is a greeny brown black and the soap I make with it is dark brown...


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## Pears

I've tried grandpa's wonder pine tar soap before, which sounds similar to yours. Have you tried rosin soap before? I've edited my last post, to include some more info on the measurements.


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## Lindy

I've not - I don't even know anyone who makes it.  Sounds fascinating though.


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## Birdie Wife

This has got me really interested now. I'm planning a range of soaps using ingredients I've gathered myself in the Scottish Highlands, and pine tar from Scots pine sounds like a quite involved process. However, if I can use the resin in its natural form then that's much easier. I love Pears soaps 

Anyone know if a pine resin soap differs greatly from a pine tar soap, apart from the colour?


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## Pears

Hi Birdie, I used to love Pears soap too but they reformulated it in 2009 and it's now a shadow of it's former self. Which is why I'm interested in making my own rosin soap. I'm also trying to develop a Pears type aroma to add to the soap. I think that I've narrowed it down to about five essential oils that are required but I'm still working on the ratios. 

The main difference between rosin soap and pine tar soap, aside from the colour, is the smell. Pine tar has a smokey aroma and rosin has a warm, amber, piney smell. If you're using crude pine resin instead of rosin, then it should smell somewhere between rosin and real turpentine. Real turpentine is slightly piney and fruity, unlike mineral turpentine. Rosin does add to the overall smell of Pears soap. I've tried rosin soap scented with coal tar before and although it smelt of coal tar up close, I could catch a faint smell similar to Pears soap from across the room.

As it happens, there's a company in Scotland called Spirited Soaps that sell a whiskey and pine resin soap. They call it "Earth". It's quite expensive but you might like to get a single bar for testing against your own creations. I would give you a link but I'm not sure that it's allowed.


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## Lindy

Birdie you need to check with your safety assessor because it is my understanding this ingredient is not allowed in the EU....


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## Pears

I know that coal tar isn't allowed in the EU, accept in licensed pharmaceutical shampoos but I think that pine tar and rosin are allowed.


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## Lindy

Actually Pine Tar is not allowed either....


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## Pears

I think that it may just be that only pharmaceutical grade pine tar is allowed. Christina May Pine Tar Soap and Shampoo are made in England.



> Our pine tar soap contains 2% Pharmaceutical grade pine tar (PINE TAR  BP)  in a pure triple milled vegetable soap base enriched with Vit E.  The bar is hard and very long lasting with a good white lather.
> 
> Pine Tar is an effective germicide and fungicide and is a traditional remedy for all sorts of skin problems.
> 
> Many people rely on pine tar soap to relieve the symptoms of various skin complaints including acne, psoriasis, eczema and acne.
> 
> Pine  tar soap is the nearest equivalent to coal tar soap which is now  illegal in the EU. Any soap that is sold as coal tar soap does not  actually contain any coal tar as coal tar is now banned in any over the  shelf product.


I think that the rules are much looser regarding the use of rosin. I know of three UK companies that manufacture rosin soap and another one that is currently testing a rosin soap for retail. They happened to send me a sample.


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## Birdie Wife

That's good to know - I will definitely check before I use either rosin or pine tar in any soaps. It's one for further down the road once I have more experience I think


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## Lindy

I just checked in with my EU friends and they say it is not allowed, but that doesn't stop people from using it.... :shh:


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## Kersten

Now, this thread exemplifies why I love this forum! Even when I think (only for a very, very brief second, mind you ;-) that I've heard, read, seen, smelled, and maybe even tasted (zap, zap ;-) it all, I click on a thread and *BAMB*, there it is…some new and fascinating tid-bit of info I would have never encountered otherwise. Thanks Lindy and Pears for a great discussion 


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## Pears

Lindy said:


> I just checked in with my EU friends and they say it is not allowed, but that doesn't stop people from using it.... :shh:



Is that with regard to pine tar or rosin/rosinate? Can you ask them when these regulations came in because the INCI directory for cosmetic ingredients shows that neither pine tar or sodium rosinate were restricted within the EU, up until atleast 2009. The data sheets tend to be updated or replaced when new restrictions come in and that doesn't seem to have happened. Thanks.

http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/services/inci/ingredient.aspx?id=10158&q=pine%20tar
http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/services/inci/ingredient.aspx?id=10157&q=pine tar
http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/services/inci/ingredient.aspx?id=6641&q=pine tar

http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/services/inci/ingredient.aspx?id=12952&q=sodium rosinate


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## Pears

Kersten said:


> Now, this thread exemplifies why I love this forum! Even when I think (only for a very, very brief second, mind you ;-) that I've heard, read, seen, smelled, and maybe even tasted (zap, zap ;-) it all, I click on a thread and *BAMB*, there it is…some new and fascinating tid-bit of info I would have never encountered otherwise. Thanks Lindy and Pears for a great discussion 



It's my pleasure, Kersten. We might pretend that we're all grown up but really we're still kids at heart and want to experiment and discover new things. Fortunately, there's no end of new things that we can discover.


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## Pears

I'll take it that your friends in europe aren't sure, Lindy. Anyhow, I'm going to try making some but I'm not sure whether or not I should add more water, if I'm doing a small test batch. I only want to use 100g of rosin to begin with. According to the recipe, that would require 100ml of lye (containing 27.6g of sodium hydroxide) but I think that the water would evaporate off quicker in such a small batch and require topping up.


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## Lindy

Actually they are and I checked with a safety assessor too.  It is considered carcinogenic and has not been proved to be safe so for that reason safety assessors are not approving it even though it is not yet a banned ingredient.  With the new legislature coming into play this year there will be even more crack downs.

But it is what it is and it doesn't affect me since I'm not there....


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## Pears

Is this new legislation with regards to both pine tar and rosin/rosinate? I've heard of pine tar being a possible carcinogen but not rosin/rosinate.


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## Lindy

The new legislation is all encompassing with regards to the cosmetic industry there.  At this point it is not known what in all is going to be in this, but all SA's are having to be re-written for the new regs.


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## Pears

That's interesting to know, Lindy. Fortunately it won't affect you or me. I'm not sure about pine tar but I'm confident that rosin soap is safe, so I'll have a bash at making some. Pears soap was created in 1789 and it's the oldest brand in the world that still continues to this day. If rosin soap was good enough to clean and bathe a nation for the last two centuries, then I think that it's good enough for us too.


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## judymoody

If you are interested in making soap like the original Pears soap, I suggest that you look at Susan Miller Cavitch's books.  One of them (Soapmaker's Companion?) explains how to do it and it involves a more complicated method than regular CP soap to obtain that translucent quality.  I believe it requires the use of alcohol.  It's been awhile since I read the book but it provides much more modern and detailed instructions than what you currently have.

I think that the rosin you are describing is very different from the pine tar I know.  I have made pine tar soap (20% pine tar) for a friend with psoriasis and it looks nothing like Pears soap.  It looks, frankly, like a lump of tar and the consistency is slightly sticky.  It traces lightning fast.

If you get the kind of rosin that is used for violin strings and ballet shoes, I believe that you can render it usable in soap by putting some in fractionated coconut oil and gently heating it.  

I look forward to hearing how this experiment unfolds.  My husband is also a big fan of the original Pears soap.


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## Pears

Hi Judy, thanks for the heads up. I was indeed talking about using the rosin that's sometimes used for string instruments, rather than pine tar. Would it be possible for you to write the recipe here, or does that break the forum rules? I know that there is a similar rosin soap recipe to the one that you described, in Catherine Failor's book on Transparent Soapmaking. One soaper had this to say...



> The recipe I use is in Catherine Failor's book on Transparent Soapmaking. It's an excellent book, and the recipe makes an amazing soap...deep  amber orange, hard, very clear, beautiful lather, nice warm fresh woody  fragrance - don't bother scenting this soap.  The soap is similar to  Pear's transparent soap but nicer. :content:   In Failor's recipe the  rosin (I get it in big-ish chunks from Cranberry Lane) is melted with  the other oils (palm, coconut, stearic acid and castor).  There is a SAP  value for rosin in the book as well.   The stearic acid tends to cause  the oils and lye to seize, but it's doesn't matter for transparent soap  as the solvents and cooking process dissolves the soap.


I had thought of melting the rosin in just a small amount of oil, as you said, saponifying it and then adding it to melt and pour soap. It would be simpler than making a transparant soap from scratch. The oil might be opaque but it would hopefully be in small enough amounts to allow the melt and pour soap to remain translucent. Pears soap was never completely transparant anyhow. I'd have to figure out the minimum amount of oil that is necessary to dissolve the rosin and how much extra lye to use. It's good talking with you.

Pears


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## judymoody

Unfortunately, I don't own this book and it is perpetually checked out at my local library.  You might try Amazon to see if you can find a used copy.  I believe that the method is similar to what Failor describes.  I've never actually tried this method myself.


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## Pears

I'll have a look to see if my local library has either of them. I've  managed to find the approximate SAP value for rosin on a few sites. The  range seems to be around 170-180 for the lightest grades and 160-170  for the darker grades. When you take into account the conversion from  potassium hydroxide to sodium hydroxide, the SAP value would then be 121-129 for the lighter grades and 114-121 for the darker grades.

http://hpsirmaur.nic.in/Rosin1.htm

The  recipe that I linked to earlier equated to 276g of sodium hydroxide per  kg of rosin. However, if we were to go by the SAP values for rosin, we  should only need 114-129g of sodium hydroxide per kg of rosin, depending on the grade. It may be  that the earlier recipe was using potassium hydroxide, in which case  the amounts called for would have been much closer to the SAP values for  rosin.

If I were to dissolve 100g of dark grade rosin in say 50g of  coconut oil, based on the SAP values for each, I should need about 21g  of sodium hydroxide. As it's a good idea to superfat a recipe by atleast  5%, 20g of sodium hydroxide should be about right. Hopefully it can then be added to some melt and pour soap. Thanks for everyone's feedback so far.


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## Lindy

Pears why are you wanting to place it into melt & pour after making it as CP already?


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## Pears

Hi Lindy, I'm interested in creating a transparant soap like Pears but I'd prefer to test it with some melt and pour soap, before attempting to make a transparant soap from scratch. I'm unfamiliar with making transparant soap, so I figured that I'd skip that until I know what I'm doing with the rosin. I haven't yet made up my mind as to what I'm going to do though. I'd like to read the recipe in one of those books first, if I can.


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## Lindy

Transparent really isn't that hard to do.  It's hot process that has had sugar and alcohol added to it.  You are going to need to soap at lower superfat but I would recommend that you play with that, perfect it so you can create your masterpiece?


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## Pears

Thanks, I'll certainly look into it further before I decide what to do. I would like to eventually make my own from scratch but I'm also interested in making a melt and pour version. I've been active on a Pears soap blog recently and some posters were interested in the idea of making their own, so I said that I'd look into it and share my findings. While I'd be interested in making my own from scratch, I think that it would be alot simpler for them if I gave them a melt and pour version to begin with.


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## Pears

Pears said:


> Pears soap was created in 1789 and it's the oldest brand in the world that still continues to this day.



I should correct that. Andrew Pears did set up his business in 1789 but created his Pears soap in 1807.


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## Pears

This is a quick update for those who are interested. I melted 1.5 grams of rosin in 0.75 grams of coconut oil today and it dissolved quite easily. The consistency once cooled was soft and workable and the addition of a little hot water made it about as runny as honey. So half as much coconut oil as rosin should be enough to help the lye mix in with the rosin and do it's job. The interesting thing is that the rosin and oil mixture remained transparent once cooled, even though the pure coconut oil was white at the same temperature. I'm guessing that the rosin stopped the coconut oil from recrystalizing. Hopefully a similar effect will be seen upon saponification. I have to pick up some sodium hydroxide before I can test that out. I'll keep you all updated.

Pears


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## Logansama

Pears said:


> . I have to pick up some sodium hydroxide before I can test that out. I'll keep you all updated.
> 
> Pears




Hi, are there any updates on this process? I came across a bag of powdered pine resin and I'm not quite sure what to do with it. I do CP or CPOP soaping. Its a light gold powder and smells really lovely.


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## Pears

Hi Belinda, I can't answer your question with regards to CP or CPOP, but you can read how to make HP rosin soap below: 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...JAH&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=snippet&q=ROSIN&f=false

The pages in the free preview may change; if pages 70 and 71 aren't available to read at the time, then try again later.

I would imagine that you could omit the alcohol and sugar if you didn't want to make transparent soap, but I would keep the water and glycerin content the same. In such an instance, you could also superfat a little if you liked.


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