# Clear LS KOH discount, how low can you go?



## max_ime (May 26, 2014)

I red on my supplier's website (bluesaffire) that in order to get a clear liquid soap you must discount the KOH no more than 3-4% and keep cocoa butter below 2% and jojoba below 2% as well.

Since I started making soap I came across so much misinformation so I would like to know if someone had success in making a clear LS exceeding the guidelines above.  I made a clear liquid soap last week which I describe here (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=12653&page=4) and I find it too drying to hands and my KOH discount is 3.3%.  I doubt it'll get much better with a month of wait.  btw Is it better to cure the paste or to cure the liquid soap?

My understanding is that the higher the SAP is for an oil, the clearer the soap can be/ you probably can discount more KOH as these oils have less unsaponifiables and that's what's clouding the soap.  Is this right? Just as an easy example, could one make a Coconut oil LS and discount KOH 20-25% and still get a clear soap?


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## Susie (May 26, 2014)

I keep my superfat number for liquid soap at 0-3%(KOH discount).  I don't really care if my soap is clear or not, but I don't want a cloudy top on every bottle.  I tend to use lower superfat on laundry detergent because I don't want extra oils in my clothing. 

Hand soap, I keep at 2-3% superfat to keep some conditioning to it.  I often add glycerin to my handsoap to help with the conditioning.

Yes, you need to keep cocoa butter and jojoba amounts very low if you want to avoid clouding.  I know this from personal experience.  

Also, lard and tallow will give a pearly appearance to liquid soaps.  

It would really help if you gave me your recipe, so I can help figure it out.


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## max_ime (May 26, 2014)

I think separation only happens when oils are added after the cooking, although I think people add EO after without problems.  

my recipe is in the link from my previous post, look for the Bronner images my recipe is in this post.  However I decided to take out the sunflower oil for next batch, I will probably replace it by refined avocado oil or extra virgin olive oil.  I would like it if it would work great with avocado because it has almost no scent, I am not too crazy of the olive oil soap smells.  I am willing to take the Coconut % down too, but not by too much,  I am trying to make a better soap than dr Bronner.  Bronner is pearly once diluted, have you ever tried to discount more than 3% and still got a clear soap?  Another idea I got would be to make a dishwasher soap from an oil that doesn't lather, wonder if this would work.

Thank you


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## Susie (May 26, 2014)

I have started to reply to you and changed what I was going to say several times now.  And, I am sincerely trying to be helpful and remain polite.  

The thread you linked is 5 pages long.  You linked page 4.  On there, there is a LENGTHY post including Dr. Bronner's recipes and, I presume, yours.  If you want folks to help you, it would be best if you helped them help you by providing the information requested rather than providing a link to something you previously posted.

I have given you my experience with liquid soapmaking.  I make my own recipes these days rather than trying to duplicate others.  I can't tell you how to make Dr. Bronner's soap.  I have never tried. 

The soaps I have made that had a cloudy top were NOT soaps I added oils to after the cook.  They were soaps with higher than 3% superfat.  

I will give one _final_ suggestion- read what people write before asking them something they already answered.


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## max_ime (May 26, 2014)

I feel you are upset and I sincerely am not the one who is looking to start annoying people here.  You answered me because you wanted to, you did not have to and I thank you.  

I'm sorry this was too long for you to go see the link and find my recipe in the post which is clearly mine, it has my name written on the left and it has the Bronner images in it like I said, real easy to find I thought.  Besides I said I was going to make a better soap, not a duplicate.  It's good to know how it's done.

the soap you made with a higher SF than 3% with cocoa butter or jojoba turned up cloudy, however I wonder if it would have been only coconut if it would have turned cloudy above 3% as I explained in my first post.  So in my opinion I did not ask you something you already answered, sorry there has been a misunderstanding.


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## grayceworks (May 27, 2014)

From my experience, LS with higher that 3-4% tends to either get cloudy, especially at cooler temps, or the excess oil floats to the top over time, not necessarily right away, but over some months it will, whether it was cooked in or added later. Cooked in takes longer for the oil to float up, but it does eventually. 

I recently made a batch of 100% PKO with an accidental 11% SF because I forgot to check the 90% box in soapcalc --- It was almost clear at first, then during cooler times of day seemed cloudy, then would get clear, then cloudy, till now, two weeks later, I have clear soap with a layer of the excess PKO, that would probably not have settled out as noticeably at a lower SF.


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## max_ime (May 27, 2014)

thank you for sharing

I think I realized what's going on with clear liquid soaps like Bronner's using a lot of coconut oil, I need to try it to confirm but I think they must be using a mix of fractionated coconut oil along with some coconut 76 oil.  Probably more fractionated than 76 especially in the case of liquid soap.  The fractionated CO is said to lather very little and to be mild in soaps.  someone shared that interesting link (http://www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm) in another thread concerning 100% avocado soaps.


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## max_ime (May 30, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> I recently made a batch of 100% PKO with an accidental 11% SF because I forgot to check the 90% box in soapcalc --- It was almost clear at first, then during cooler times of day seemed cloudy, then would get clear, then cloudy, till now, two weeks later, I have clear soap with a layer of the excess PKO, that would probably not have settled out as noticeably at a lower SF.



My theory about Bronner using fractionated CO to make their liquid soap mild is now... well let's say I just got a reply from dr bronner here is what they say : Both our coconut oils and hemp oils are unrefined, certified organic, certified fair trade, non-gmo project verified, and are sourced from sustainable sources. 

A food can be called “_raw_” if it is unheated or cooked to a temperature less than 104–115°F (40– 46 °C). Since our virgin coconut oil is dried and expeller pressed at temperatures higher than that we do not call it “raw”. In the soapmaking process, our organic oils are saponified between 180-185 degrees farenheit.

==

I wonder if your experience with PKO would apply to CO. I am a little surprised by Bronner s answer. Maybe Virgin coconut oil is less drying than refined coconut 76 once saponified? As strange as this is, I couldn't find any feedback from someone who had tried both separetly. Maybe it's the curing time that makes it much milder but I've red some people saying that curing only improved the soap by like 1%, people disagree on this...


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