# How to prevent your soap to go bad and have orange spots



## origo (May 18, 2015)

I searched the forum for some info on this but couldn't find much.


So what I want to achieve:

- Have soaps that don't have orange spots after some time and stay at least 1 year before they go bad. (cold process)

On a search on google I found:


Use Rosemary EO in it, since it's a natural preservative
Use Vitamin E
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??? what else there is to do ???? :think:

for example, putting fruits and green stuff into soap will make it likely to go rancid fast. Making avocado soaps and cucumber soaps is fun.

What are you using as a natural preservative ?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 18, 2015)

There is a difference between the oils going bad and then additives going bad.  Certain types of oils are more prone to oxidising, for which Vit E and ROE (not be confused with Rosemary EO) can provide some help.  The best option, though, is to avoid using too much of these oils.  Storage of soap can also help - keeping it dry between uses and not in a steam-filled bathroom, for example.

Additives are then something else.  If you're using things like cucumber and avocado flesh but not pureeing it fully, then the lumps can go off.  I would think you would need a pH appropriate preservative - alas, there is no real effective "natural" preservative.


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## new12soap (May 18, 2015)

Rosemary Oleoresin Extract (ROE) is NOT a preservative. It is an antioxidant. Yes, it can help prolong the shelf life of oils, but in tests it really hasn't done much to prevent DOS (Dreaded Orange Spots - rancidity in soap). Vitamin E is also an antioxidant, not a preservative, and can help a little but not much.

When using any food additives, such as cucumber or avocado, it must be thoroughly pureed and completely suspended within the soap. The natural high alkalinity of the soap is enough to preserve it. Larger pieces or chunks that cannot completely mix with the soap will get moldy pretty fast.


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## shunt2011 (May 18, 2015)

I think as long as you keep DOS prone oils at 10-15%  percentage and cure and store them properly you should not have to worry about DOS.  I've only had it once and it was in a shampoo bar left in the shower. I still have a couple of those bars and they are fine.   Otherwise I've not had it happen.


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## topofmurrayhill (May 18, 2015)

origo said:


> - Have soaps that don't have orange spots after some time and stay at least 1 year before they go bad. (cold process)



You don't need a preservative. For maximum protection, you need a chelating agent to capture metal ions in the water and an antioxidant added to your oils.

Don't bother adding vitamin E. It doesn't work.

Rosemary oleoresin extract (ROE) in the oil is effective, and I believe is the only natural antioxidant so far that has been demonstrated to work. It works even better in combination with EDTA as a chelating agent in the water, but that is synthetic. Please note that ROE is NOT rosemary essential oil. It's a different product.

BHT is synthetic but very effective. You can use it with EDTA, but BHT plus sodium citrate as a chelating agent is one of the most effective combinations that we currently know of.

Additional considerations:

Use stainless steel or preferably plastic or plastic-coated racks to cure your soap. Contact with certain metals will catalyze DOS.

Use distilled water to make your soap.

Wrap your soap after curing. Keep it out of light, heat and humidity.

Don't use inappropriate liquid oils to make soap. Oleic oils like olive are best. Linoleic oils like soybean and sunflower, not so much. People will tell you to keep them below 15%. There is no magic number. Using them will increase the chances of DOS. Using more appropriate soaping oils will decrease the likelihood of DOS. Avoid them in particular if you aren't using a chelating agent and antioxidant.

More info:

http://cavemanchemistry.com/DreadedOrangeSpot-Dunn.pdf

http://www.artfire.com/ext/shop/blog_post/Soapsmith/136/soapsmith_s_dos_experiment


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## cmzaha (May 18, 2015)

Kevin per the article above found ROE + sodium Citrate did not work well at all, in fact he stated that ROE was better used on it's own than using the Roe+ Sodium Citrate. That is a bummer because I do use Roe + Sodium Citrate. Looks like I might have to change my method with one more additive


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## nebetmiw (May 18, 2015)

It is easy to prevent DOS. Do not use the following oils, soy, corn, canola, peanut,sunflower or safflower that is not HO.  Or any soap that has a 6month shelf life. Do not wast money on preservatives for you want to make a clean soap not filled with all that stuff.

In all my years of making soap I have had one batch with DOS and that had soy in it. It was my first batch.


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## topofmurrayhill (May 18, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> Kevin per the article above found ROE + sodium Citrate did not work well at all, in fact he stated that ROE was better used on it's own than using the Roe+ Sodium Citrate. That is a bummer because I do use Roe + Sodium Citrate. Looks like I might have to change my method with one more additive


 
Disappointing, right? If sodium citrate worked with ROE, it would be manageable with the chemophobic crowd. You could even just list citric acid and add a little extra caustic to react with it.

This research is great but at some point it should be repeated to confirm the results and ensure nothing was a fluke.



nebetmiw said:


> It is easy to prevent DOS. Do not use the following oils, soy, corn, canola, peanut,sunflower or safflower that is not HO. Or any soap that has a 6month shelf life. Do not wast money on preservatives for you want to make a clean soap not filled with all that stuff.
> 
> In all my years of making soap I have had one batch with DOS and that had soy in it. It was my first batch.


 
Your soap is no more "clean" than anyone else's, and we are not talking about "filling" soap with "stuff."

I understand you are expressing an attitude, but I prefer to stick to the facts. These additives are of no consequence to users of the soap except as a matter of faith, which is really better saved for the spiritual side of life.

It's good to talk about how to make a stable product. Oil selection is important, but we covered that already and it isn't the only variable. Whether it's spots or some other pattern, your soap will change color. It's only a matter of time.


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## cmzaha (May 18, 2015)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Disappointing, right? If sodium citrate worked with ROE, it would be manageable with the chemophobic crowd. You could even just list citric acid and add a little extra caustic to react with it.
> 
> This research is great but at some point it should be repeated to confirm the results and ensure nothing was a fluke.


Yes it would and we have a lot of chemophobics here. Especially when I sell at City of Hope Markets


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## JBot (May 19, 2015)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Your soap is no more "clean" than anyone else's, and we are not talking about "filling" soap with "stuff."
> 
> I understand you are expressing an attitude, but I prefer to stick to the facts. These additives are of no consequence to users of the soap except as a matter of faith, which is really better saved for the spiritual side of life.



Amen to that!  :wink:  Praise the Lord and pass the BHT.


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## nebetmiw (May 21, 2015)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Your soap is no more "clean" than anyone else's, and we are not talking about "filling" soap with "stuff."
> 
> I understand you are expressing an attitude, but I prefer to stick to the facts. These additives are of no consequence to users of the soap except as a matter of faith, which is really better saved for the spiritual side of life.
> 
> It's good to talk about how to make a stable product. Oil selection is important, but we covered that already and it isn't the only variable. Whether it's spots or some other pattern, your soap will change color. It's only a matter of time.



Are you really jumping on me for giving oil avoidance advice.

Well, since OP asked about preventing DOS that is where it all starts. OP is new this is the Beginners section. Starting simple and with out alot of extras "in other words a clean soap" is easier than getting into BHT and other things which can react strange sometime for new people.  KISS method is best for starting no two ways bout it.

Do not presume you know how it will react for another soaper.  I have been soaping for many many years. I have seen more things that can go wrong that have no reason too.   

I do not express attitude but fact. Again keeping it simple for someone NEW to soaping is better than giving details they have yet to fully comprehend.  Since I listed common oils found in local stores OP knows now not to waste money on buying them. This was Not done in a clear way. Again do not presume that someone has all the knowledge that you do when it comes to making soap when they are new to it.


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## girlishcharm2004 (May 21, 2015)

I have one that has stumped me.  (Maybe I need to start a new thread? But it's on-topic)

I have three soaps all the same oil ratios made from the same masterbatch.  
50% tallow
25% olive oil (refined, not extra virgin) *Edited 
20% coconut oil
5% castor oil

5% superfat
33% lye concentration

Soap #1: lavender essential oil, purple brazilian clay
Soap #2: lime essential oil, chrome oxide
Soap #3: 50/50 lavender & lime essential oils, chrome oxide and purple brazilian clay

All made the same day. After cure, all stored in cardboard boxes (I think something was mentioned about off-gassing cardboard).

Soaps 1 & 2 are still going strong 8 months later.  Soap 3 had dreaded orange spots after 3 months.  I can't figure it out.


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## traderbren (May 21, 2015)

Can you double check your percentages? It's adding up to 110%.


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## girlishcharm2004 (May 21, 2015)

traderbren said:


> Can you double check your percentages? It's adding up to 110%.



Whoops, sorry!  Long morning.

25% olive oil


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## topofmurrayhill (May 21, 2015)

nebetmiw said:


> Are you really jumping on me for giving oil avoidance advice.



No, in fact the oil avoidance advice was already given earlier in the discussion if you read through the thread. I was jumping on you for dismissing the antioxidant discussion, which was something the OP specifically asked about and we were responding to. It's not for beginners or for experts, but for anyone interested in it.


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