# Saturated:Unsaturated Ratio?



## LisaNY (Sep 4, 2010)

Hi Everyone,

I don't know if there is an ideal saturated to unsaturated fat ratio, but I wanted to ask anyway.  I have a soap recipe that I just ran through soapcalc and it shows a 46:54 sat/unsat ratio.  How does that sound?

Does anyone work with a "standard" ratio?

Thank you!


----------



## IrishLass (Sep 4, 2010)

Although it's not written in stone or anything, a good, basic rule of thumb to use as a guideline is the 60/40 ratio of hard vs soft fats, but a lot can depend on the synergy of the different oils/fats in your formula, and/or what you are hoping to achive in your soap.

Also- it is good to keep in mind that olive oil can be figured as a hard fat because it produces a rock-hard bar of soap over time. For that reason, I always calculate it as a hard fat in my formulas.

IrishLass


----------



## LisaNY (Sep 4, 2010)

Wow!  So, my sat:unsat ratio is way off...

Actually, most of the recipes I've done so far are in that range.  Are my batches not usable?


----------



## donniej (Sep 4, 2010)

I've made plenty of soaps which were 100% unsaturated (soy).  It cleans just fine and is a very mild soap.  The down side is it's soft and the lather is thin.  Soaps high in unsaturated oils are also more prone to oxidation (DOS).


----------



## LisaNY (Sep 4, 2010)

Thank you!  I am going to pay closer attention to my ratios from now on.

Okay - I just went to the Miller's soap site and took one of the recipes through soapcalc:

Castor oil 2 oz
Cocoa Butter 4 oz
Coconut oil 4 oz
Olive Oil 12 oz
Palm oil 10 oz 
lye 4.3oz
water 12 oz

soapcalc shows a sat:unsat ratio of 39:61

Is this recipe a bad one?  I am getting confused.


----------



## IrishLass (Sep 5, 2010)

Nope- it's not a bad recipe.   It'll actually make a good, hard bar of soap with lots of creamy lather. 

I think you are stressing too much over having proper ratios. Remember, that 60/40 ratio that I mentioned is only a general guideline.    It's not written in stone as an absolute, and also remember that a lot can depend on the synergy of your oils in combination with each other, too. In other words, the numbers on paper can sometimes lie when compared to your actual finished soap. 

The 60/40 ratio was recommended to me when I first started soaping and it was good because it kept me from 'bad idea' extremes in my formulating, yet I soon began to notice the 'on paper' numbers didn't always match up with reality in my finished soap. From then on, I began to use the ratio as more of a tweakable plumb-line/jumping-off place than an absolute 'written-in-stone' certainty. 

What I would recommend for you to do is to do what I did when I first started out: make a couple of different batches using different formulas and let them cure (use a few of the Miller Soap recipes). Compare your finished soap to the 'on paper' figures, and then tweak from there. For example, if your soap feels too soft, increase your hard fats and decrease your soft oils, etc... It's much easier to do things this way than to rely solely on the numbers, because now you have real soap to work off of and compare instead of working in the abstract with just 'on paper' figures. 


HTH!
IrishLass


----------



## LisaNY (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks so much, IrishLass!  Sorry I did not respond sooner.


----------



## Vintageliving (Sep 21, 2010)

And then there are those of us who make single fat soaps, such as all olive, all lard, or simple olive/castor soaps.  They all work well.


----------



## Chris-2010 (Sep 27, 2010)

Liquid vegetable fats likely won't result in enough hardness (whatever that means).

Start at about 20 percent saturated oil by weight (of your mix) and work your way up from there.  You'll know when.  

(But solid oil is only 1/3 of getting a hard soap bar.)


----------



## LisaNY (Sep 27, 2010)

Thank you!


----------



## Tinystar (Feb 23, 2019)

I didnt know soap calc shows the ratio of your soap... where...i been soaping 2 years but still trying to learn im a very slow learner sorry.


----------



## psfred (Feb 24, 2019)

Lots of debate on this, and I think it depends entirely on what you want and the oils you are using.  50:50 is supposed to be the "perfect" soap, but what's "perfect" for me isn't necessarily "perfect" for you, etc.

Keep records and see what you like.  I have made a very nice batch soap with 80% "vegetable oil" (I assumed it to be equal parts soy and canola oil) and 20% soy wax.  The soy wax was to "harden" it. It was fairly soft for a long time, and went rancid because I used tap water and didn't use BHT or citrate, but it's nice soap now.  Eventually because quite hard like Castile, and other than the rancidity from iron in the water and used oil (left over from frying donuts), it worked nicely.

Don't make 20 pounds of anything until you know you like it, but make lots of soap!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 25, 2019)

Most of these posts are from 2010, so the op most likely has a fairly decent recipe sorted by now. Of course, we never stop tweaking, though [emoji106]


----------



## Abeltran (Apr 19, 2020)

IrishLass said:


> Also- it is good to keep in mind that olive oil can be figured as a hard fat because it produces a rock-hard bar of soap over time. For that reason, I always calculate it as a hard fat in my formulas.



Remember though, just because an oil preforms a certain way in soap doesn't mean it's something it isn't. While the advice given here is EXCELLENT, I humbly disagree with this particular statement. To count olive oil as a "hard" oil, and amongst that desired 60% (ish!) hard oil ratio will result in soaps that will initially be very soft (olive oil makes a rock hard bar of soap over time, yes, but soaps made with high amounts of OO will take CONSIDERABLY longer to cure), and will produce a finished bar with higher conditioning properties, but lower lather. The fact is that even though the long term outcome of OO in soap is a hard bar, OO is an UNSATURATED fat, and not a hard oil (ie: saturated). When formulating your saturated (hard oils/butters) fats and unsaturated fats (soft/liquid oils) to create a soap recipe, the general guideline (not rule!) Is to formulate recipes which contain approx 60% hard oils/butters and 40% soft oils. My fav recipe actually consists of 55% hard oils & 45% soft, so again, this 60%/40% ratio is just a guideline & nothing more. However, if I were to take my above mentioned favorite recipe & count the olive oil as one of my hard/saturated fats, my recipe would be 83% "hard oils" and "17%" soft... This just isn't correct, and my recipe will always be a ratio of 55% hard/saturated fats and 45% soft/unsaturated fats, regardless of what qualities these fats impart to my finished soaps. Another thing to keep in mind is that the hard/soft percentages or ratios in my soap recipe are NOT the same thing as that little Sat/Unsat ratio soap calc shows you in the upper right-hand corner... understanding your fatty acid profiles, and what they bring to your recipe will help you to balance this! For example... That favorite recipe I was telling you about; while it might contain 55% hard oils & 45% soft, the saturated/unsaturated ratio of this recipe is 43:57/Sat:Unsat. As a general guideline for your recipe's fatty acid profile, a sat:unsat ratio of 40:60/sat:unsat is recommended. As you can see, my favorite recipe doesn't land precisely on that 40:60/sat:unsat "bullseye", but is within close proximity of it, and is a wonderfully balanced recipe! The 3 most valuable things I learned when formulating my own recipes (and having them actually turn out awesome!) were: #1 When you fully understand your fatty acid profiles (oleic, linoleic, linolenic, stearic, myristic, etc etc etc), and what roles they play when formulating recipes, there's NOTHING you won't be able tweak to formulate the best recipes ever ("best" being subjective, of course)! #2 Soap Calc is NOT the bible... Take it's final "judgment" with a grain of salt. And #3 There are VERY VERY VERY few rules when it comes to soap making (with rules pertaining mostly to lye safety), so any suggestions or guidelines you see out there (INCLUDING my own!) are ONLY that! Experiment, think outside the box, go against the "standard" and see what YOU like best! I know this thread is old, but I say these things more so for any soap maker who may stumble upon it in a search, as I know that sometimes it's hard to find answers to every single question that comes to mind, and when you DO, everyone seems to have a different opinion (myself included!). That can be SUPER confusing & frustrating to the newbie soap maker, so I do hope this helps in some small way!


----------



## cmzaha (Apr 19, 2020)

_Abeltran_ the person you are responding to has not been seen since 2014. I will note my go to recipes are 50:50 and 42:58 both soaps have a decent longevity.


----------



## Sar (Jun 27, 2020)

Abeltran said:


> Remember though, just because an oil preforms a certain way in soap doesn't mean it's something it isn't. While the advice given here is EXCELLENT, I humbly disagree with this particular statement. To count olive oil as a "hard" oil, and amongst that desired 60% (ish!) hard oil ratio will result in soaps that will initially be very soft (olive oil makes a rock hard bar of soap over time, yes, but soaps made with high amounts of OO will take CONSIDERABLY longer to cure), and will produce a finished bar with higher conditioning properties, but lower lather. The fact is that even though the long term outcome of OO in soap is a hard bar, OO is an UNSATURATED fat, and not a hard oil (ie: saturated). When formulating your saturated (hard oils/butters) fats and unsaturated fats (soft/liquid oils) to create a soap recipe, the general guideline (not rule!) Is to formulate recipes which contain approx 60% hard oils/butters and 40% soft oils. My fav recipe actually consists of 55% hard oils & 45% soft, so again, this 60%/40% ratio is just a guideline & nothing more. However, if I were to take my above mentioned favorite recipe & count the olive oil as one of my hard/saturated fats, my recipe would be 83% "hard oils" and "17%" soft... This just isn't correct, and my recipe will always be a ratio of 55% hard/saturated fats and 45% soft/unsaturated fats, regardless of what qualities these fats impart to my finished soaps. Another thing to keep in mind is that the hard/soft percentages or ratios in my soap recipe are NOT the same thing as that little Sat/Unsat ratio soap calc shows you in the upper right-hand corner... understanding your fatty acid profiles, and what they bring to your recipe will help you to balance this! For example... That favorite recipe I was telling you about; while it might contain 55% hard oils & 45% soft, the saturated/unsaturated ratio of this recipe is 43:57/Sat:Unsat. As a general guideline for your recipe's fatty acid profile, a sat:unsat ratio of 40:60/sat:unsat is recommended. As you can see, my favorite recipe doesn't land precisely on that 40:60/sat:unsat "bullseye", but is within close proximity of it, and is a wonderfully balanced recipe! The 3 most valuable things I learned when formulating my own recipes (and having them actually turn out awesome!) were: #1 When you fully understand your fatty acid profiles (oleic, linoleic, linolenic, stearic, myristic, etc etc etc), and what roles they play when formulating recipes, there's NOTHING you won't be able tweak to formulate the best recipes ever ("best" being subjective, of course)! #2 Soap Calc is NOT the bible... Take it's final "judgment" with a grain of salt. And #3 There are VERY VERY VERY few rules when it comes to soap making (with rules pertaining mostly to lye safety), so any suggestions or guidelines you see out there (INCLUDING my own!) are ONLY that! Experiment, think outside the box, go against the "standard" and see what YOU like best! I know this thread is old, but I say these things more so for any soap maker who may stumble upon it in a search, as I know that sometimes it's hard to find answers to every single question that comes to mind, and when you DO, everyone seems to have a different opinion (myself included!). That can be SUPER confusing & frustrating to the newbie soap maker, so I do hope this helps in some small way!




I was trying to figure the appropriate sat:unsat ratio. Thanks for this general guideline!


----------



## Cosmo71 (Aug 7, 2020)

thank you for this thread. I am interested in knowing a good basic ratio.


----------



## Loran (Sep 24, 2020)

This thread has answered my biggest question to date! How much hard oil to soft oil ratios. I am now fully prepared to indulge myself in the art of soap making


----------



## DeeAnna (Sep 25, 2020)

IMO, the 60:40 rule of thumb is so simplified it's not useful. To make matters worse from my science geek perspective, there doesn't seem to be any science reasoning to support this rule.

The saturated fatty acids commonly found in soap -- palmitic, lauric, stearic and myristic -- vary a _lot _in the qualities they contribute to soap. If you use this rule of thumb to design a recipe high enough in saturated fatty acids (FAs) to reach that magical 60% level, you're likely going to end up with a soap high in coconut oil. The result will be a soap that is stripping to the skin and not very long lasting.

The saturated FA content -- the number "60" in the 60:40 rule -- would be more helpful if broken into two numbers. One number should be the combined palmitic and stearic content and the second the combined lauric and myristic content. Then you get information that is actually useful.

The stearic and palmitic fatty acids contribute to the water INsolubility of the soap (longer life) as well as dense, stable lather. This is the "longevity" number in some calcs. Or you can subtract the "cleansing" number from the "hardness" number if your calc doesn't provide "longevity". Fats high in these FAs are palm, lard, tallow, and the butters.

The lauric and myristic acids contribute to the water solubility of the soap (shorter life) and bubbly "flash" lather. This is the "cleansing" number in most calcs. Fats high in these FAs are palm kernel and coconut.

The same goes for the 40% part of the rule. It should be separated into two numbers -- the monounsaturated (oleic acid) content and the combined polyunsaturated (linoleic and linolenic) FA content.

***

The "perfect soap has an INS of 160" rule is another rule of thumb that drives people to make recipes ridiculously high in coconut.


----------



## LilianNoir (Sep 25, 2020)

@DeeAnna That's a great breakdown of the fatty acids. I'm still struggling myself to find a good resource on what individual fatty acids contribute to a soap and how they interact with each other. I have plenty of soap making books that mention fatty acids, with a few sentences on qualities, but nothing that feels comprehensive. Where did you learn about how the fatty acids contribute, and what might you recommend reading?


----------



## DeeAnna (Sep 25, 2020)

_"...Where did you learn about how the fatty acids contribute..."_

I'm sure there are good written resources that cover this topic well, but I mostly figured it out on my own by deconstructing the Soapcalc "numbers", picking up tidbits here and there from other soap makers, reading scholarly books and research articles about the properties of soap, and putting it all together.

I wrote an article about the Soapcalc numbers -- Soapy Stuff: Soapy Stuff. I talk in that article about how I use the fatty acid profile (either the FA percentages directly or indirectly by using the Soapcalc numbers) to design recipes.

I think you can probably find other online articles by soap makers that give similar information, but I have yet to find any written soap making book that covers this information. Most of them are still stuck on the idea that the _fats _we use to make soap are really the most important thing, when it's really the_ fatty acids_ in those fats that have the most effect on how a particular soap performs. That's a pretty common trend with many soap makers, so I can see why the books written by soap makers also have this bias.


----------



## GemstonePony (Sep 25, 2020)

I'm going to recommend a book, with caveats:
The Soap Maker's Companion by Susan Miller Cavitch goes over fatty acids, what they are, how they work, and what they do, as well as the fatty acid breakdowns for a lot of common oils and butters. 
Caveats!
1. Her recipes are often use expensive ingredients that contribute very little to the bar for the average consumer, she doesn't explain the logic behind her complicate recipes, and her superfat is too high, so I would ignore the recipe portion almost completely. 
2. Her understanding of preservation is outdated, the only reason the oil she uses helps us because it normally has a short shelf life and has preservative added to it. Deanna's work is a much better resource for that.
3. She doesn't care for animal fats, so doesn't do much with them.

However, she has lots of graphs which I screenshot for frequent reference, and once you're familiar with what the fatty acids do, a brief Google search of the fatty acid profile for any material you're using will give you a rough idea of what qualities it will lend to the soap.


----------



## AliOop (Sep 25, 2020)

The Ultimate Guide to CP Soap (e-book by Ashlee Greene) has pretty comprehensive information about fatty acids. She also explains how to use fatty acid profiles to create your own recipes with your desired soap qualities. Her other Ultimate Guide e-books (HP and LS) have this same information. I found all of them extremely helpful in my soapmaking journey, mostly because it is nice to have lots of information gathered in one place. You can purchase any one of them on ultimatehpsoap.com.


----------



## Loran (Sep 25, 2020)

Hi DeeAnna, I was just reading your link in soapy stuff. That is a LOT of technical information! That’s something I’ll have to read over and over to lock that info in. I’m confused as the last poster, about finding info that states what oils have which Major properties to use to come with the formula desired. My first experiments I used a recipe that had mostly CO, with some OO( I then converted ounces to cups since I didn’t have a scale and was only familiar with cups and tablespoons, don’t worry, I learned my lesson and ordered a scale). Honestly this information is making it scary to be a soap maker!


----------



## DeeAnna (Sep 25, 2020)

A lot of soap makers have the philosophy of "I just want to make soap, so just point me at a decent recipe; I don't want to understand the whys and hows." I can appreciate that.

And I can also appreciate why the more science-minded soap makers become confused and frustrated as they start learning the math and science behind making soap. I imagine for every person who perseveres with the math and science, there are quite a few who give up.

My Grandma Goldie made soap by blindly following a recipe with no knowledge of the underlying science and math. That's all that was available back in her day, even if she'd wanted to know more. There's nothing wrong with that soap making approach even today. A lot of us, including me, cook and bake without having a clue about controlling the proportions of liquid to flour to leaveners, etc. and we can still bake a decadent chocolate cake and cook scrumptious fried chicken.

What bothers me more than the "seat of the pants" soap makers are the people want to make up science-y sounding procedures, ideas, and rules that aren't factual and don't work.


----------



## GemstonePony (Sep 25, 2020)

Loran said:


> Hi DeeAnna, I was just reading your link in soapy stuff. That is a LOT of technical information! That’s something I’ll have to read over and over to lock that info in. I’m confused as the last poster, about finding info that states what oils have which Major properties to use to come with the formula desired. My first experiments I used a recipe that had mostly CO, with some OO( I then converted ounces to cups since I didn’t have a scale and was only familiar with cups and tablespoons, don’t worry, I learned my lesson and ordered a scale). Honestly this information is making it scary to be a soap maker!


I absolutely understand feeling overwhelmed. The awesome thing about being in this community is that you don't have to know all the things right away, though I'd recommend learning as much as possible. There's no bad soap (as long as the lye is saponified), just soap that doesn't do what you want. If you tell us what you're working with and what you don't like about the results you're getting, odds are we can probably help you achieve something closer to what you want. In fact, I believe that's what the recipe feedback section of the forum is there for. And if you stick around, the science-y stuff will probably sink in over time.


----------



## cedarstar (Sep 26, 2020)

I've read some people prefer the 60/40mg but personally most of my recipes are closer to 40/60. I pay closer attention to keeping my lauric/myristic lower, stearic/palmatic, oleic higher and linoleic/linolenic under 14 and my cleansing at 12. We all have a personal preference. I like a low cleansing bar that is long lasting.


----------



## The Park Bench (Sep 27, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> A lot of soap makers have the philosophy of "I just want to make soap, so just point me at a decent recipe; I don't want to understand the whys and hows." I can appreciate that.
> 
> And I can also appreciate why the more science-minded soap makers become confused and frustrated as they start learning the math and science behind making soap. I imagine for every person who perseveres with the math and science, there are quite a few who give up.
> 
> ...


The science portion of soap making is what intrigues me and keeps me soaping! But my degree is in exercise and nutrition so I have a passion for research. I have always said that anybody can make soap but not everybody puts science into their soap making.


----------



## DeeAnna (Sep 27, 2020)

_"...anybody can make soap but not everybody puts science into their soap making ...."_

True that. 

I'm not sure I make soap that's any better than anyone else makes, however. I truly don't believe that knowing something about soap science means my soap is always a blue ribbon winner. But when soap doesn't work out the way I want it to, I'd like to think I have the resources to help me fix most problems and make improvements.


----------

