# Castile Bars & curing



## hariskar (Jul 19, 2015)

I started reading about making soaps because I wanted to make a 100% olive oil soap. But the fact that I can not use it before several months or 1 year makes me change my plans..
What options do I have to use my soap after I made it without waiting? Is there any solution to use a 100% olive oil soap immediately?
Thank you.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 19, 2015)

The answer is "yes" and "no".

You can use it as soon as it has finished saponifying (in CP that is between 24 to 48 hours, generally).  But if you use it then it will be really slimy and unpleasant.  Even after 1 year of curing, you need to let the bars dry out between uses (a good practice with all hand-made soap).

Why do you want to make Castile (100% olive oil) soaps?  Why not other recipes, too?  A recipe with 50% lard/palm/tallow (only 1 of them), 30% olive and 20% Coconut oil would be a fine soap after 4 weeks cure.


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## hariskar (Jul 19, 2015)

Thank you for reply and sorry for posting in wrong topic. 
I would like to make 100% olive oil soap because I like the smell of olives. Of course I don't like that it makes almost no foam.
So, 4 weeks cure is the minimum? I can't wait so much!


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## Susie (Jul 19, 2015)

Olive oil soap does not smell like olives.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 19, 2015)

It doesn't really smell like olives, to be honest, and 3 months is the minumum for a Castile, 4 weeks for a 'normal' soap.  If you really can't wait that long, I think that CP/HP soap isn't for you.  Have you considered melt and pour.


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## hariskar (Jul 19, 2015)

OK I did not describe the smell correctly, but I know how it smells. So I think I will start with a "normal" soap.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 19, 2015)

You can hot process it and it will be safe to use when you cut it, but you just have to realize it will improve immensely with a good cure.

You can use liquid soap almost immediately if you have KOH and want liquid soap, but it also is better with a week of sequestering.

Honestly, I think you would be hard pressed to smellthe difference between unscented olive oil and something like coconut oil soap or just about any other unscented soap.


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## hariskar (Jul 19, 2015)

Thank you for replies. I will first make the recipe The Efficacious Gentleman said and then Castile,

And about the Castile smell, I think it smells like an old abandoned oil press factory I had visited here in Greece.


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## Dorymae (Jul 19, 2015)

How about, make some Castile then make something to use in the interim.  The Castile will cure over time, you can set it in the linen closet and forget about it while you use another soap. Then around Xmas you can try out your Castile. You could even make some liquid Castile to have as well.


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## snappyllama (Jul 19, 2015)

Agree with everything folks mentioned.  When I was just getting started, a month seemed like such a long time.  Now that I've got a bunch of bars curing, waiting the 5 weeks I normally cure isn't a big deal.  Even my birthday castille, patiently hanging out until next May, is no problem.  

I do notice a slightly more olive-ish scent to my naked castille bar than the faint tea-ish smell my naked bar with hemp has. My naked bar with pumpkin puree and pumpkin oil actually smells nothing at all like pumpkin - but it does smell the best (it is one of mommy's favorite kids though - so I'm probably just partial to it). Mainly they just smell like soap...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 19, 2015)

^^^^^^  What Dorymae said - make the Castile now, leave it to one side and then make other soaps.  There are enough types of soaps that you can make a batch every week and have something coming to cure most of the time.


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## hariskar (Jul 21, 2015)

Yesterday I made my 2 first efforts, both 100% olive oil! One had 38% water and the 2nd 33% water. Both 5% super fat. I made the 2nd batch because I thought the 1st was too liquid but then I realized that with 100% olive oil it should be that way. I believe the final results of both will be identical, or will they not?

The soap I made was totally different form the 100% olive oil soap I buy from the super market till now. The color and the smell have nothing common. I wonder why they differ so much, since the stated ingredients are the same with mine.

The smell I was trying to describe was of that soap I had bought, mine smells only like olive oil.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 21, 2015)

Those will be interesting to compare - did you notice a difference in trace time? One should also be able to be unmoulded before the other, but the differences diminish over time - it's a good chance for you to observe it first hand


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## hariskar (Jul 21, 2015)

I can't compare trace time because the 38% was my 1st effort and I did not recognize the trace and continue mixing. At the 33% everything seemed very easy and quick.
I ordered more oils to make the receipt you advised me.


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## ngian (Jul 21, 2015)

Καλωσήρθες Χάρη - Welcome to this great soap community!

Pictures are usually a must while we describe our creations so as to brighten our talking. What type of olive oil did you use? Extra Virgin Olive Oil or residual of Olive Oil -dregs (Μούργα)? 

Friendly Nikos


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## hariskar (Jul 21, 2015)

Hi Nikos, thank you!
I used Extra Virgin Olive Oil, the same we use in our kitchen. OK, I will upload a picture, although I put it in a round plastic 1lt yogurt pot which I don't think is a good solution and I don't know if it will be easy to take the soap out of there.


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## hariskar (Jul 21, 2015)

Here is it, I wonder how will I take it out of there. And when.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 21, 2015)

Oh my.....you may have a bit of trouble getting it out of there for sure. You may want to make yourself a mold out of a cardboard box or something and line it with plastic coated baking paper or parchment paper or even a plastic garbage bag. This will certainly make it interesting unmolding. It may take several days to a week or so before you should try to unmold it.


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## galaxyMLP (Jul 21, 2015)

If you do have trouble, place it in the freezer for a few hours and that will help a lot!


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## kchaystack (Jul 21, 2015)

Or if you don't mind not using the container again you can cut the plastic off.


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## hariskar (Jul 22, 2015)

When extra virgin oil is used which is the suggested super fat? I ask that because I read that extra virgin oil contains more unsaponifiables. So I wonder if the suggested superfat 5% should be lower.
Thank you!


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## ngian (Jul 22, 2015)

With which oil does EVOO have more unsaponifiables?


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## hariskar (Jul 22, 2015)

I don't know, I read it here in comment #2


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 22, 2015)

I would still keep it at 5%


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## hariskar (Jul 22, 2015)

I wasn't very pleased with yesterdays results, so today I bought a stick blender and got a great trace within a few minutes. Again 100% EV olive oil (I use extra virgin because this is the only oil I have now), 5% SF and 35% H2O.
I improved the container, but have to improve it more.

Thank you for all replies!


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## DeeAnna (Jul 22, 2015)

"...I read that extra virgin oil contains more unsaponifiables. So I wonder if the suggested superfat 5% should be lower...."

The unsaponifiable content in any fat will cause the measured saponification value to be lower than the theoretially "ideal" sap value. You don't need to compensate for the unsaponifiables by adjusting the superfat %, because that's already been done simply by measuring the sap value of real samples. Set the superfat (aka lye discount) at the % you want, and soap as usual.

An extreme example is jojoba with a measured NaOH sap value of 0.068 due to its very high unsaponifiable content. That sap value is tiny compared to the much higher sap value of common soaping fats.

All online soap calcs use the measured sap values and all published sap values are measured values as well. You will only encounter a theoretically ideal sap value if you choose to calculate it using the chemical formulae for your fat.

As far as whether virgin olive oil has more unsaponifiables than pomice olive ... the NaOH sap value in Soapcalc is 0.135 for virgin olive and 0.134 for pomace. This suggests there is a slightly higher unsaponifiable content in the pomace. But I'm no expert on this; I'm just looking at the Soapcalc data and drawing a conclusion.

Edit: And I'm also seeing this trend on other websites: Double the allowable unsaponifiable content for pomace vs other grades of olive oil per US standards (http://www.oliveoilsource.com/page/product-grade-definitions and http://cesonoma.ucanr.edu/files/27262.pdf). Higher sap value listed for non-pomace grades of olive oil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil).


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## hariskar (Jul 23, 2015)

After I did my 3rd batch I realized that I put the 1st and 2nd batch in the containers before they reached trace (but then I thought they had).
Do you think they will be usable?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 23, 2015)

It depends 

Before trace happens comes a stage known as 'emulsion' - the lye solution and oils are mixed to the point where they won't (usually) separate back out to being oils and lye solution, but will stay mixed together. This allows saponification to get underway. 

It's easier to recognize trace at one of its various stages, so most people mix until trace. Some mix until emulsion, especially if they plan on doing a whole lot of swirling. 

So, you might be lucky - if it is not turning back in to separate oils and separate lye in your mould then it will be fine


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## ngian (Jul 23, 2015)

hariskar said:


> After I did my 3rd batch I realized that I put the 1st and 2nd batch in the containers before they reached trace (but then I thought they had).
> Do you think they will be usable?



Trace can be categorized from light to thick. If after a few hours/days you have in the molds only water and olive oil the you might not have reached trace at all in the first place.

Read more on this article *"All about trace"*.

As I can see from the second picture, trace is visible on the top of the soap surface in the mold. If your first and second soap are hard inside the molds then I think you are in the right way.


I'm also writing down a nice description of when trace is starting, from a book I've read:



> You’ll soon see changes in the mixture. Originally oily and transparent, it will become creamy and opaque. The surface, which was shiny at first, will become duller, and the oily ring at the edge of the mixture’s surface -right where it meets the wall of the pot- will shrink and all but disappear. Next you’ll notice the mixture thickening and getting smoother. It will come to resemble thick eggnog or very thin pudding. At this point, you can stop blending, because the saponification that produces soap can continue without further mixing. You might call this the “point of no return.”
> 
> _Smart Soapmaking - Anne L. Watson_


_If the admins think that the above should be deleted for copyright issues, then go on and delete the quote._


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## hariskar (Jul 23, 2015)

Thank you!
The photo in post #17 shows my 1st effort for which I have doubts and post #25 shows a picture with very good trace.
There is no oil-lye separation, so I will wait.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 23, 2015)

hariskar said:


> Thank you!
> The photo in post #17 shows my 1st effort for which I have doubts and post #25 shows a picture with very good trace.
> There is no oil-lye separation, so I will wait.



Yes, be careful about getting good trace. With 35% water, you are close to the point where a 100% olive oil batch will want to separate. Even if you pour it at trace, there is a chance of some difference between the soap at the top and the bottom or the mold. You are safer using something like 25% water, or set the lye concentration to 33%.


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## ngian (Jul 23, 2015)

Along with the info that topofmurrayhill gave you, here is a good article that explains when, how much and why you should compute lye concentration in a recipe instead of water as a percentage of oils.

*The importance of lye concentration*

Another thing to be careful also is that pomace olive oil (μούργα) traces much faster than virgin olive oil, as topofmurrayhill has explained this phenomenon and it is for the free fatty acids that are in pomace that saponify much faster.


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## hariskar (Jul 23, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> A recipe with 50% lard/palm/tallow (only 1 of them), 30% olive and 20% Coconut oil would be a fine soap after 4 weeks cure.



Is 30% lye concentration good for this recipe?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 23, 2015)

It would be a pretty safe recipe with various concentrations


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## ngian (Jul 23, 2015)

hariskar said:


> Is 30% lye concentration good for this recipe?



This is a very general question. It all depends on what else will you be using/doing (coloring with swirls, using additives like milk and honey, combining oils and lye on high or low temperature, using Ethereal / Fragrance Oil that accelerate).

It is the same with asking: is it safe to drive with 140km/h? (with what type of vehicle, in which road, how many people are with you...)


You can type the specific recipe in soapcalc and see the *Sat : Unsat* Ratio that gives you. Using Palm50%, Olive30% and Coconut20% the ratio is 47 : 53.

Then going to the table that you can find in the link I gave you, Roberto Akira suggests to use around 32% lye concentration. But then there are other things that influence the suggested lye concentration such as if someone is a begginer, if you want to do swirls and so on. 
For beginners it is suggested to use 30% so I guess it is a good ratio to start with if there will not be any other things that will effect the lye concentration needed.

Nikos


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## DeeAnna (Jul 25, 2015)

I don't think there is any one "perfect" lye solution concentration for all recipes all of the time. You have to know your recipe and choose a reasonable lye concentration. Some lye solution concentrations will work better for some recipes than others. I'm finding differences in how my soap batter behaves with just a 1% or 2% change in lye solution concentration, so you don't need to make a big change in the concentration to get distinct differences in behavior from a given recipe. 

If we're talking about a 100% olive oil recipe that will saponify slowly, I would use anywhere from 33% to 40% lye solution concentration (this is NOT water as % of oils). I would use whatever lye solution concentration I felt most comfortable using within that range -- some people are uncomfortable with 40%, but okay with 33%. Less water = faster trace time. Experienced soapers even use up to 50% lye concentration, but I don't recommend that for a beginner.

For a recipe with a balanced blend of fats, I might use anywhere from 30% to 33% lye concentration. Higher concentration means less time to trace, all other things being equal. That's fine if I'm making an uncolored or solid color bar and want to "get 'er done". Lower concentration means more time to trace, and that works better if I want more time to do whatever fancy decorative work I am able to do.

Lower concentration also means a greater tendency for the soap to go into gel (and possibly overheat) on its own without additional heat. There is also more tendency for the soap to show streaking or mottling. If any given recipe traces too fast, I might try reducing the lye concentration by 1% or 2% and see if I get more time before the soap comes to trace. If the soap shows streaking and mottling and I don't like that or if it tends to gel and overheat easily, I might increase the concentration by 1% or 2% and see how that works.

For a 100% coconut oil soap that saponifies quickly, a 28% to 30% lye concentration would be fine. 

That said, I seldom use "full water" (about 28% lye concentration) because the soap batter may not stay emulsified with that much water, especially for recipes with liquid oils (vs. lard, tallow, palm, PKO, and/or coconut). If the emulsion "breaks", the batter will separate in the mold into fat and lye layers. That is not a good thing. Also a high-water soap can tend to be too soft when I want to unmold at 12-24 hours, again this is more likely if the recipe contains liquid oils.

Related threads: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=54095 and http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53642


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## hariskar (Jul 26, 2015)

Thank you!
I started using this guide for choosing the correct lye concentrations.
I unmolded all my soaps without problems. I put the 2 containers of post #17 in the fridge today for some hours and then taking out the soap was very easy. So till now everything is OK!

In the next batches I will add some essential oil.
Also I will make shaving soap and toothpaste in the next days.


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## hariskar (Sep 24, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The answer is "yes" and "no".
> 
> You can use it as soon as it has finished saponifying (in CP that is between 24 to 48 hours, generally).  But if you use it then it will be really slimy and unpleasant.  Even after 1 year of curing, you need to let the bars dry out between uses (a good practice with all hand-made soap).
> 
> Why do you want to make Castile (100% olive oil) soaps?  Why not other recipes, too?  A recipe with 50% lard/palm/tallow (only 1 of them), 30% olive and 20% Coconut oil would be a fine soap after 4 weeks cure.




If I put 10ml Jasmine essential oil in 600gr oils doesn't it affect the super fat (which was 5%)?


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## FlybyStardancer (Sep 24, 2015)

No, adding an essential oil (which should always be measured by weight!) will not affect the superfat. Superfat refers to the unsaponified oils that are made up of fatty acids. Essential oils do not have any fatty acids.


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## hariskar (Sep 25, 2015)

But since it is an oil doesn't it affect how greasy you feel your hands after washing? If everything else is the same, wouldn't the soap with essential oil result in more greasy hands than the same soap without essential oil?

Thank you!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2015)

About 5% of the total batch will be eo. 5% (around) of each bar will be eo. 5% of the amount of soap used per use will be eo. That's not much if you think that a 100g bar should last at least 50 hand washes (should be a whole lot more, but let's err on the side of overestimation), that is 2g of soap per use, that is 0.1g eo per use at an absolute outside.


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## hariskar (Sep 25, 2015)

Thank you for reply! So, I understand that there is no noticeable difference.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 25, 2015)

No, it doesn't, because an essential oil is not at all like a soaping fat. An EO is not soluble in water, IS soluble in fats, and has "oil" in its name, but that does not mean an EO is fatty/greasy. 

Pure EOs should evaporate quickly, leaving no trace behind. (Tip: If you put a drop of EO on paper and it EO does leave a greasy trace after 24 hours, the EO probably has been diluted with a carrier oil.) Some EOs are even solvents for fats (citrus comes to mind), meaning they dissolve grease on the skin so the grease can be more easily washed away.


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## winusuren (Jan 29, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> I don't think there is any one "perfect" lye solution concentration for all recipes all of the time. You have to know your recipe and choose a reasonable lye concentration. Some lye solution concentrations will work better for some recipes than others. I'm finding differences in how my soap batter behaves with just a 1% or 2% change in lye solution concentration, so you don't need to make a big change in the concentration to get distinct differences in behavior from a given recipe.
> 
> If we're talking about a 100% olive oil recipe that will saponify slowly, I would use anywhere from 33% to 40% lye solution concentration (this is NOT water as % of oils). I would use whatever lye solution concentration I felt most comfortable using within that range -- some people are uncomfortable with 40%, but okay with 33%. Less water = faster trace time. Experienced soapers even use up to 50% lye concentration, but I don't recommend that for a beginner.
> 
> ...


Hello ma'am,
I'm from India and last week I made 100% coconut oil soap(cold pressed one which we use for cooking), frozen coconut milk substituted for water to make the lye solution with 20 percent super fat. It took nearly 20 minutes to reach trace with a stick blender. My hands started to hurt by the time I poured the batter into the mould. I used 35% lye concentration. Have I committed any mistake??


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## DeeAnna (Jan 29, 2021)

@winusuren -- I don't think you did anything wrong. I get the impression the temperature of your soap batter was fairly cool, and that might be why it took so long to come to trace. Hard to say. Sometimes soap behaves unpredictably.

You don't have to stick blend continuously. That's a good way to ruin a stick blender and wreck your patience. I am also not sure it gets the batter to trace any faster. Some tips that might be useful for making your next batch -- Trace, Stick Blender | Soapy Stuff


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## winusuren (Jan 29, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> @winusuren -- I don't think you did anything wrong. I get the impression the temperature of your soap batter was fairly cool, and that might be why it took so long to come to trace. Hard to say. Sometimes soap behaves unpredictably.
> 
> You don't have to stick blend continuously. That's a good way to ruin a stick blender and wreck your patience. I am also not sure it gets the batter to trace any faster. Some tips that might be useful for making your next batch -- Trace, Stick Blender | Soapy Stuff



Thank you so much for your reply and suggestion ma'am. I read the article and found it very useful and I'll follow as you say. Thank you so much. I'm a new soap maker and I've never used a thermometer so far. I always work at room temperature.  After preparing the lye solution, I let it cool for almost 2 to 3 hours. Then I'll heat up the hard oils( coconut, palm, shea and cocoa butter) directly in the stove at low flame. Then after the butter melts, I mix the soft oils and let it sit for some time. I usually take a drop of oil with my spatula and just touch it. If I feel they are very warm, I mix the lye solution. This is the procedure that I've kept following for all my soaps. I've made 7 batches totally till now. Is this process ok ma'am?? Can I proceed this way??


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## DeeAnna (Jan 30, 2021)

No need for "ma'am" here -- just call me DeeAnna.  

I think your method sounds fine -- I don't have any suggestions for improvement. 

Sometimes soap doesn't behave the way we expect it to.


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## winusuren (Jan 30, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> No need for "ma'am" here -- just call me DeeAnna.
> 
> I think your method sounds fine -- I don't have any suggestions for improvement.
> 
> Sometimes soap doesn't behave the way we expect it to.


Ok DeeAnna. Thank you.


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## senaraj (Jan 30, 2021)

Just curious, should we always heat Coconut oil as this is in the liquid form in India. Only in some places in India, when the climate is very cold, the coconut oil is solid.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 30, 2021)

If it's melted ... it's melted. No need to heat it further to make soap unless you specifically want the fats  to be warmer than room temperature. Some soap makers do.


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## winusuren (Jan 30, 2021)

senaraj said:


> Just curious, should we always heat Coconut oil as this is in the liquid form in India. Only in some places in India, when the climate is very cold, the coconut oil is solid.


Actually it's not required. I use unrefined coconut oil and at the bottom of the bottle some sediments which we usually find out in all our unrefined oils are present. While measuring the oil, it might come up. So I just heat it along with the other hard oils.


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