# Question: Selling in the UK and beyond



## AndyRoo (Jul 18, 2021)

Hi all,

I was hoping someone could help me regarding where in the UK I can sell my soaps once the CPSRs have been confirmed. I do not have a Responsible Person in the EU, so I know legally I cannot sell there, but where does the CPSR cover me for in terms of sales?
I have assumed:

Mainland UK

The Hebrides, Shetlands and Orkneys
Northern Ireland...?
The Isle of Man...?
The Channel Islands...?
Is that correct? I wasn't sure if this was completely accurate, as some people have told me NI, IoM and the CIs aren't covered under the legislation... but others have said it would be fine, and I am completely confused!

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Andy


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## LilyJo (Jul 18, 2021)

I think its a bit of a grey area (definitely as far as my understanding goes) - I think that NI whilst being a part of the UK you also need to register on the EU portal which you cannot do if you have a UK address. I am assuming its possibly the same for other territories.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 18, 2021)

LilyJo said:


> I think its a bit of a grey area (definitely as far as my understanding goes) - I think that NI whilst being a part of the UK you also need to register on the EU portal which you cannot do if you have a UK address. I am assuming its possibly the same for other territories.



I actually found some legislation for NI - they're essentially remaining aligned with the EU, so you're not able to sell there unless there is a responsible person present.

I don't know about the channel islands or the Isle of Man though.


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## LilyJo (Jul 18, 2021)

I have a feeling the IoM is another weird one - you might be better off asking in one of the facebook groups, there are a couple of really good ones


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## AndyRoo (Jul 18, 2021)

LilyJo said:


> I have a feeling the IoM is another weird one - you might be better off asking in one of the facebook groups, there are a couple of really good ones



I've asked on a couple of groups, hopefully someone can provide some insight. I absolutely curse Brexit.


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## TheGecko (Jul 18, 2021)

I recommend contacting Lisa with "I Dream in Soap" as she is in the UK and is always happy to answer questions.


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## AndyRoo (Jul 18, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> I recommend contacting Lisa with "I Dream in Soap" as she is in the UK and is always happy to answer questions.



I've sent her a message on YouTube. Brexit has a lot to answer for!! It's frustrating that the definition of 'UK' is not actually defined in the legislation... and I can't find any legislation that specifically pertains to the crown dependencies as distinct areas under cosmetic regulations.


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## TheGecko (Jul 19, 2021)

From a US perspective whose husband watched all the back and forth of, ya’ll’s government isn’t much different than ours, just more polite.  LOL


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## AndyRoo (Jul 19, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> From a US perspective whose husband watched all the back and forth of, ya’ll’s government isn’t much different than ours, just more polite.  LOL



It has been an absolute ****-show for the last five years or so. I've actually questioned leaving the country. :/


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## earlene (Jul 19, 2021)

AndyRoo said:


> It has been an absolute ****-show for the last five years or so. I've actually questioned leaving the country. :/


And I have been wanting to live in England or Scotland for a year.  Granted, not as a permanent residence, because I have no desire to be so far away from my family that I would never see them, but some of them have even questioned staying here, so who knows?


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## TheGecko (Jul 19, 2021)

AndyRoo said:


> It has been an absolute ****-show for the last five years or so. I've actually questioned leaving the country. :/



You could always cross the pond.  As a soap maker, you'd love it.  So long as you are making "true soap", following packaging guidelines and don't make any cosmetic or medical claims, you are limited only by your imagination and ingredients thereof.


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## LilyJo (Jul 19, 2021)

To be fair, the cosmetic regulations arent that bad - once you understand what is needed its not difficult to follow the rules. It just requires a bit more thought and creativity and a bit less sponteneity but its not hard to be compliant.

Nothing wromg with the UK at all, I love my country - just dont believe everything you see/read in the media!


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## AliOop (Jul 19, 2021)

LilyJo said:


> .... I love my country - just dont believe everything you see/read in the media!


Ditto for the USofA. We have problems, but the way we are portrayed in the media is beyond ridiculous (as are many of our media personalities themselves) and not even close to reality.


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## TheGecko (Jul 19, 2021)

LilyJo said:


> To be fair, the cosmetic regulations arent that bad - once you understand what is needed its not difficult to follow the rules. It just requires a bit more thought and creativity and a bit less sponteneity but its not hard to be compliant.



I don't much much attention to the media in my own country, much less anyone else's    

Most of what I know about soaping in the UK comes from researching what it would take to sell my products in another country and from talking to UK soap makers.  It would be cost prohibitive for me to sell my current range of soaps in the UK.  1) I have two base recipes...one for GMS, one for Regular.  Even if I used the same exact colorants and scents, I would still have to have separate assessments.  2) Both my soaps contain Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay as a matter of course...that leaves with only three additional ingredients; basically two colorants and a scent.  

I have around 50 colorants and 100 FOs/EOs sitting on my shelves right now. No I don't make two hundred different soap all the time, but in the US, I could make a 1000 different soaps. And I suppose I could do the same in the UK, but it's going to cost me...a LOT. Even with the same base recipe, it's £180 for six 'variations'. So for scent alone: 200 / 6 * 180 = £6000. And sure...I can mix two colorants together and get a third, but that's it

Understand, I'm not trying to get down on the UK...I fully support cosmetic safety and believe that we could use a little more regulation in the US beyond labeling laws, but I do not agree with the current limitations of six variations of the same base recipe with each variation only be allowed five ingredients.  Why not just say:  "Hey, I make GMS.  Here is my recipe along with a list of additive and scents I intend to use.  Or here is my Regular Soap and here is the list of colorants, additives and scents that I intend to use."  I could see paying $200 USD to get each base recipe and list of ingredients accessed for safety.  And if I want to use a new receipe or new additives, colorants or scents not on my original list, I'll pay another $200.


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## LilyJo (Jul 20, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> I don't much much attention to the media in my own country, much less anyone else's
> 
> Most of what I know about soaping in the UK comes from researching what it would take to sell my products in another country and from talking to UK soap makers.  It would be cost prohibitive for me to sell my current range of soaps in the UK.  1) I have two base recipes...one for GMS, one for Regular.  Even if I used the same exact colorants and scents, I would still have to have separate assessments.  2) Both my soaps contain Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay as a matter of course...that leaves with only three additional ingredients; basically two colorants and a scent.
> 
> ...



Not sure where your info is from but its not correct. You can have far more than six variations of each base and more than five additional ingredients - its just the cheapest assessment package from one supplier puts that limitation on it.  I have a soap assessment with ten additional ingredients and more than six variations from another supplier and, TBH, you can have what you want, you just need to work with an assessor to decide whether a package or a bespoke assessment works best

The old pre-2013 assessment regulations were very much like you mention but things changed in 2013 and the new tighter regs were bought in.  IMO they will never go back to the old system as it would be considered a watering down of consumer protection, plus if the UK wants to sell to Europe it still need to comply with their regs so whilst we may have our own cosmetic portal now, we have to meet the same assessment requirements.


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## TheGecko (Jul 20, 2021)

Now I am even more confused because how are the limitations of one base with six variations with each variation being limited to five ingredients less 'tight' that you having one base with more than six variations with each variation have ten additional ingredients?  Logically it should be the other way around.

And whether the limitations I spoke of are the result of the assessor or legislation/regulation, it still doesn't change the fact that it would be cost prohibitive for me to offer the range in the UK/EU that I do in the US.  And I know that it's cost prohibitive for you guys too...I've checked out websites, I watch YouTube.  I've seen "Love Spell" made with red and white swirls or solid pink or pink and white swirls, or white to red gradients.  Or maybe your assessment included blue so you can combine it with red and make purple.  

Again, I have no issue with cosmetic safety regulations and wouldn't mind seeing more in the US, but I think the costs and limitations on ingredients per base recipe are ridiculous for soap makers in the UK/EU.


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## LilyJo (Jul 20, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Now I am even more confused because how are the limitations of one base with six variations with each variation being limited to five ingredients less 'tight' that you having one base with more than six variations with each variation have ten additional ingredients?  Logically it should be the other way around.
> 
> And whether the limitations I spoke of are the result of the assessor or legislation/regulation, it still doesn't change the fact that it would be cost prohibitive for me to offer the range in the UK/EU that I do in the US.  And I know that it's cost prohibitive for you guys too...I've checked out websites, I watch YouTube.  I've seen "Love Spell" made with red and white swirls or solid pink or pink and white swirls, or white to red gradients.  Or maybe your assessment included blue so you can combine it with red and make purple.
> 
> Again, I have no issue with cosmetic safety regulations and wouldn't mind seeing more in the US, but I think the costs and limitations on ingredients per base recipe are ridiculous for soap makers in the UK/EU.



We've had this discussion before and I know you have your own view on OUR assessments and regulations and you can pull it apart as much as you want.  However, the UK regulations for anyone who cares to understand it, who puts recipes forward for assessment, who formulates, who sells and who runs a business is more than manageable. The only barriers on the number of variations, ingredients, base recipe etc are set by assessors - as an example one assessor has told me the maximum fragrance that can be used in perfume is 10% and another has said 50%.  Its down to the assessor, their professional opinion, their liability insurance and the quality of the assessor you choose.

The five ingredients and six or eight variations of one base is set by one assessor. That is not the law.

I just dont agree with you and I am pretty sure you dont agree with me so I suggest we drop it.


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## paradisi (Jul 20, 2021)

That's curious..it would seem: 

The right package entitles one to more variations per item, and different scent loads, and thus what's considered safe depends on how much you're paying & to whom.

That must really be confusing.

And would seem unfair to the business unable to pay for more or unaware of who the assessor with the special sauce is.  And so larger businesses have a built in advantage even in regulations.

The US system has its warts, but at least IFRA, FDA and CIR-safety levels don't change by ability to pay or who you know; they're the same for everyone. 

It's fascinating to see how different nations do such things.


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## AndyRoo (Aug 3, 2021)

Anyhow... going back on topic:

If anyone discovers whether or not the crown dependencies fall under the same regulations as the mainland UK, please do let me know. I asked someone from trading standards and he admitted he didn't know either.

As I can't seem to find any specific legislation governing the Isle of Man or Channel Islands, I assume they're covered by UK regulations as I can't find anything that suggests they aligned with the EU as Northern Ireland did.


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## TheGecko (Aug 3, 2021)

Did you reach out to the two people I mentioned?


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## AndyRoo (Aug 5, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Did you reach out to the two people I mentioned?



I did, but the response was that not being experts on legislation, they wouldn't want to advise. I've approached CTPA to see if they can advise anything.

I can't find any information that suggests they fall under UK legislation; equally, I can't find anything that suggests they have aligned with the EU. Nor can I find anything that suggests they have their own rules! 

Legislation can be very frustrating when certain things are not defined properly and clearly.


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