# Will I get in trouble for this?



## samirish (Jan 22, 2014)

I am gearing up for the farmers market which starts in spring. I had planned on adding bubble bar slices that look like a jelly roll slice.  Ive been making them and storing them so I have enough when the market starts.

Then I read that L*SH has a patent on them.  Can I still sell mine?  For those of you that make and sell these, have you ever had a problem?  

http://www.lushusa.com/The-Inventio...bble-bars,en_US,pg.html?fid=behind-the-scenes


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## Obsidian (Jan 22, 2014)

You might want to look into what is patented, is it the formula, the name, the design? Once you know that, you will know how you can label yours.


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## hippiechic (Jan 22, 2014)

Here is the link to their patent. 

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120040919

http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20120034174

The first is for a scrub in the same formula and the second includes as a bath foam.

If you have changed even one ingredient, or volume of a liquid in the recipe, that makes your product / recipe unique and you can market it as such; providing you haven't copied their trademarked processes. Please read them. You should be able to sell yours if you make them look like your own, use your own verbiage, and do not use her recipe as indicated in the formula as the patent indicates. 

Best wishes!


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## samirish (Jan 22, 2014)

Thank you hippie chick. Since I dont know their formula, Im sure something in mine is different than theirs, thus making my unique.  That makes me feel better.


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## cmzaha (Jan 22, 2014)

https://www.google.com/patents/CA23...ntor:Ambrosen&ei=pfzfUpqDN8iAogSkwIHIDA&cl=en


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## lsg (Jan 23, 2014)

Since several bath and body suppliers have posted videos on how to make bubble bars, I seriously doubt that you will be violating a patent, if you do not use the same name as the Lush product. Remember, many suppliers of fragrance oils supply dups of name brand FOs.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 23, 2014)

samirish said:


> Thank you hippie chick. Since I dont know their formula, Im sure something in mine is different than theirs, thus making my unique. That makes me feel better.


 
This is a little bit dangerous - if you knew the recipe THEN you could be sure that something in yours is different. 

As it is, you think/believe/hope that it is.


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## Lindy (Jan 23, 2014)

There are a lot of people that sell Bubble Bars and they even use the name.  If you want to sell yours then choose a different name.  The ingredients are listed in the Patent with ranges so change one ingredient and name it something else....


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## AnnaMarie (Jan 23, 2014)

Jelly rolls bubble bars are not unique to Lush, so I imagine the patent is for the recipe.  If your recipe is the same then just tweak a bit 
Cheers!
Anna Marie


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## judymoody (Jan 23, 2014)

There have been similar discussions about Bath Bombs.

I would change the name - call them bubbling bars or something like that and you should be fine.


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## savonierre (Jan 23, 2014)

Change up the name and you are good to go.
Bubbles Up
Bar of Bubbles
Solid Bubble Bath


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## la-rene (Jan 23, 2014)

Unfortunately, I don't think that changing the name or even changing the amounts of the same ingredients will help.  They have patented solid bubble bath bars... just making them (in your recipe) for sale is a violation.

*Line 20.* A process for the production of a surfactant product as defined in      claim 1 (the recipe) comprising the steps of: i) preparing a mixture comprising a      surfactant, sodium carbonate and cream of tartar; ii) allowing the      mixture of step i) to solidify.  

They have also patented the percentages of each ingredient in such a wide amount, that any tweaking would still be infringement.  Lush has also covered anything you might want to put in yours to make it special too.  They have covered their bases pretty well.  

However, since everyone is making them, I'd say they'd only send a cease and desist if you go nation wide or global (ie sell them at Target). But, don't quote me on that.  

If I were making them, I would definitely not call them bubble bars or even solid bubble bath and definitely would make them a different shape and find something other than cream of tartar.

Notice, there is not another large retailer selling solid bubble bath bars, anywhere. 

Just my 2cents. 
​


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## la-rene (Jan 23, 2014)

FYI: Lush also just applied to patent foaming bath fizzies too in June of 2011.... it was published in Oct 2013.  I'm not sure how to go about it, but if people have been making foaming bath fizzies longer than 2011, they should object to that patent.


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## samirish (Jan 24, 2014)

I fear there may come a day when only the big guys will be allowed to do anything and the small guys will be left with nothing.


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## hippiechic (Jan 27, 2014)

Samirish, you're right about the little guy... if the little guy doesn't keep trying then there will always be someone bigger to tell him no because they want to do it; and progress will never be made, New products never created, New ideas never shared. As far as the patent, you can only do what you think is best without seeking legal advice. We can all tell you our 2 cents and experience / advice but it is up to you. If you have the funds, or know a patent attorney, you may consider consulting them. I worked with patents and patent attorneys in the past and know it can be laborious to define the lines of breach when it's unintentional; however, it's not taken lightly. If you decide to read the entire patent and know what you are dealing with, and know your product is unique, change the name, and enjoy yourself at the sale. My fear is that you posted it on the internet. I really hope all your hard work is rewarded with a great turnout.


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## lsg (Jan 27, 2014)

A lot of people are still selling bubble bars so Lush must not have a complete patent on the making and selling of bubble bars:

https://www.etsy.com/search?q=bubble bar&view_type=gallery&ship_to=US

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...le+bar&ie=UTF8&qid=1390844034&rnid=2941120011


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 27, 2014)

I think the posts that point out the thought process for Lush and their legal people are the ones closest to the mark - 

Damage to the brand (including but not limited to monetary) vs cost of stopping it (including but not limited to monetary!) = whether or not they bother.


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## TVivian (Jan 27, 2014)

Soap Queen has a "solid bubble bath" tutorial. I think they'd go after her for stealing their idea first since hers looks exactly like theirs haha.. http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-b...w-to-make-solid-bubble-bath-on-soap-queen-tv/


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## DeeAnna (Jan 27, 2014)

There have been some kerfluffles lately about trademarking common names. The most recent one in the soaping community was someone trademarking the name "Soap Log" and threatening sellers on eBay and Etsy with legal action if they used "soap log" as a generic term to describe "a large block of soap before it is cut into bars". That person withdrew her trademark claim.

There's a similar brushfire going on right now in the herb crafting community. A business trademarked the name "Fire Cider" and is aggressively pursuing other herbalists who use the term. (I understand fire cider is an old name used for any one of many spicy concoctions made with vinegar and herbs.)

Not sure what Lush might do to protect its patent. Maybe nothing as long as the small fry selling similar products don't make a lot of waves. That's the usual thing, but obviously it isn't always the case.

Ugh.  :?


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## la-rene (Jan 27, 2014)

Sounds to me like the US Patents & Trademarks Offices are not doing their homework to see if the names are already in common use. That is a huge problem, in my opinion.


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## la-rene (Jan 27, 2014)

judymoody said:


> There have been similar discussions about Bath Bombs.
> 
> I would change the name - call them bubbling bars or something like that and you should be fine.



Not to argue, but changing the name would only protect you from a Trademark, not the patent.  If you look at the percentages that they use in their trademarked recipe, they cover their bases. The way I see it, is there is only so much tweaking you can do in a recipe for bathbombs.  It has to be about a 2:1 Ratio, correct?

I'm not saying that people shouldn't make them, in fact, I'm working on some fizzie foaming bath "bombs" too, but I don't think we should be surprised if we do get a C&D letter for making them at some point.  Especially, if our products are successful.  Though L's patent is for a fizzing foaming bath bomb that has an inner core that fizzes and an outer layer that foams.  That is their "difference" I guess.  

I for one, don't like L's products.  I think most of them kinda stink. lol!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 28, 2014)

I actually hate L as a company after the UK arm gave money to an organisation that was using illegal activities to promote it's agenda.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 28, 2014)

"...Sounds to me like the US Patents & Trademarks Offices are not doing their homework to see if the names are already in common use...."

That might have been true 100 years ago, but not so much anymore probably due to the sheer volume of applications. My understanding is that the applicant has to justify the appropriateness of the application and the USPTO staff may do some research on the matter, but it is mostly the burden of the public to respond to a pending trademark application. There is a period of time where people can comment or object. If no one responds in that time, the USPTO takes that to mean there is no public objection to the application. Problem is ... how does the public know so there is the opportunity to object? I think most trademarks are probably pretty reasonable, but obviously not always, as seen by the "soap log" and the "fire cider" kerfluffles.


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## lsg (Jan 28, 2014)

la-rene said:


> Not to argue, but changing the name would only protect you from a Trademark, not the patent. If you look at the percentages that they use in their trademarked recipe, they cover their bases. The way I see it, is there is only so much tweaking you can do in a recipe for bathbombs. It has to be about a 2:1 Ratio, correct?
> 
> I'm not saying that people shouldn't make them, in fact, I'm working on some fizzie foaming bath "bombs" too, but I don't think we should be surprised if we do get a C&D letter for making them at some point. Especially, if our products are successful. Though L's patent is for a fizzing foaming bath bomb that has an inner core that fizzes and an outer layer that foams. That is their "difference" I guess.
> 
> I for one, don't like L's products. I think most of them kinda stink. lol!


 There is the fact that people were making and selling bath bombs before Lush was even in existence as a business.  I have been reading up on patent laws and this was one of the things that decides whether you are in violation or not.


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## Lindy (Jan 28, 2014)

This is something the Guild should be getting involved with out of the USA.  Members should lobby them to get them to go up against this application.


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## lsg (Jan 28, 2014)

Lindy, I just sent an inquiry.  Will let you know if I hear back.

This is the message I sent:
"
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is the Handcrafted Soapmakers Guild protesting any of Lush's attempts for gaining patents to products such as bath fizzies?"[/FONT]




Here is the reply I received:

"I have a message sent out to our Trademark Attorney to investigate the issue. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Leigh O'Donnell
HSCG Executive Director"


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## Lindy (Jan 28, 2014)

Awesome!


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## hippiechic (Jan 29, 2014)

...looks like y'all gonna get some stuff cleared up this year...WTG

That's really awesome to clear it up now. Keep hand-crafted what it is and not allow folks creating start-ups to commercialize long known terms because they can't be somewhat creative and make-up their own name for it. Let me know if you need/want any help.


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## Sweetlily321 (Jan 29, 2014)

<3 this


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## gurdeep (Jan 29, 2014)

That would be like stopping people selling bath bombs and hand made soap m&p or cp


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## lsg (Jan 29, 2014)

More info this morning. I got another e-mail which stated that since bath fizzies is a generic or common term there is no patent on them in the United States. Lush did try to register a patent for bath bombs in 2000, but failed. Apparently whatever patent Lush has with the wording "Bath Fizzies" pertains to toys, games and playthings, not the cosmetic or soap industry in the U.S. The HSCG monitors the list of trademarks that are published for opposition every Tuesday.

I hope I correctly interpreted the e-mail. The blurb after the e-mail forbade copying, forwarding etc.


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## la-rene (Feb 3, 2014)

lsg said:


> More info this morning. I got another e-mail which stated that since bath fizzies is a generic or common term there is no patent on them in the United States. Lush did try to register a patent for bath bombs in 2000, but failed. Apparently whatever patent Lush has with the wording "Bath Fizzies" pertains to toys, games and playthings, not the cosmetic or soap industry in the U.S. The HSCG monitors the list of trademarks that are published for opposition every Tuesday.
> 
> I hope I correctly interpreted the e-mail. The blurb after the e-mail forbade copying, forwarding etc.




Patent or Trademark?  Not trying to be a pita... truly interested in the outcome of this. I too sent an email to HCSG about the new L patent that has been out for review since Oct 2013 on a two layer foaming & fizzing bath bombs, but have heard nothing back yet.  

This whole thing interested me when I found that L has a Patent application for Solid Lotion bars containing 16% to 76% cocoa butter from back in 2003.... not sure if that has been granted though, but, those amounts are what worries me about patents like this.  I mean 16% to 76%?  Can they have a wider spread?  

Are others doing this as well?  There must be.... I can only imagine coming up with, what I think is a new way to do... lets say whipped shampoo and  then "success!!" I get Target interested, only to have Joe Foam have a patent that says anyone using 10-90% surfectant, 20-70% random oil in a whipped shampoo recipe is violating his patent.  Seems wrong.  It's too wide.

 Though, it sounds like L has a patent for bath fizzies in the UK... I found an article where they were honored by the Queen and it says it is so. I haven't researched it to see if this is true or not.


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## lsg (Feb 3, 2014)

Trade Mark info for Bath Fizzies-- G&S: Word Mark--Bath Fizzies in realtion to toys, games & playthings, namely collectible character figures.

There is no U. S. patent for bath fizzies.


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## gurdeep (Feb 4, 2014)

If people like lush and the like het there way then the small manufacture might as well pack up their bags and call it a day government should level the playing field and help the small independent


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## kasandrashy (Jan 13, 2020)

I have spoken with other soapers with national customer base who do not make bubble bars because it’s not possible to do without violating the patent in some way. I am not saying that it’s impossible but I am saying others have looked into and decided it wasn’t worth the risk.


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## Primrose (Jan 13, 2020)

kasandrashy said:


> I have spoken with other soapers with national customer base who do not make bubble bars because it’s not possible to do without violating the patent in some way. I am not saying that it’s impossible but I am saying others have looked into and decided it wasn’t worth the risk.



Just pointing out, in case you didn't realise this is a thread from 2014 so the OP probably isn't even around anymore


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## TheGecko (Jan 13, 2020)

> I have spoken with other soapers with national customer base who do not make bubble bars because it’s not possible to do without violating the patent in some way. I am not saying that it’s impossible but I am saying others have looked into and decided it wasn’t worth the risk.



The patent is BS, the trademark is not.  You can make all the 'bubble bars' you want, you just can't call them Bubble Bars.


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