# SOAPCALC - What doe these numbers tell you about your soap?



## pschoe (Jul 19, 2015)

Good Morning 
I'm trying wrap my little head about all the numbers is soap calc.
I would like to have some guidelines or something when I look at 
these number - what will be a good number and what will be a number taking me back to the drawing board.
Lauric	0
Myristic	0
Palmitic	0
Stearic	0
Ricinoleic	0
Oleic	        0
Linoleic	0
Linolenic	0
I know each one of these show the following qualities in the soap:
Hardness	Cleansing	Bubbly Lather	Creamy Lather	Conditioning

My MAIN Question ...How do you know the numbers are as good as is could be?
Thanks for your input and guidance
Take care
Patricia


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 19, 2015)

Here is an old post from DeeAnna on the subject - 

"When evaluating a soap recipe, you can look at the individual amounts of each fatty acid (myristic, lauric, stearic, palmitic, oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc) to determine the effect of each fatty acid on the soap ... or you can use the SoapCalc "numbers" to do much the same thing, only simpler. Problem is ... and I've said this elsewhere on SMF ... is that the names of the SoapCalc numbers are misleading. It is also important to remember that the fatty acid profile and the SoapCalc numbers do not account for the effect of superfat nor the effect of additives (sugar, milk, honey, sodium lactate, etc.)

So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric 0
Myristic 0
Palmitic 25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic 28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic 2-7% (average is about 4%)
Linolenic 0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness 61 
Cleansing 0
Condition 38
Bubbly 0
Creamy 61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

Hardness: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids. 

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. It does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%. 
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%. 

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

Cleansing: The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids. 

It is a measure of how water soluble the soap is -- meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water. The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

Conditioning: The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids. 

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to soften and soothe the skin. The "anti tight-and-dry" property, so to speak.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

Bubbly: The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids. 

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long. 

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right? 

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

Creamy: The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water. 

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 19, 2015)

This is also a good thread to check out - http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34889


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## pschoe (Jul 19, 2015)

Thanks 

I played around after reading the above information, using a spreadsheet to compare changes. I think I found some number I like, BUT *** I was wondering What  will a experienced soap maker think when he/she look at these quality numbers:

Soap Bar Quality	Range	Your Recipe
Hardness	29 - 54	       *** 35
Cleansing	12 - 22	         *** 7
Conditioning	44 - 69	*** 63
Bubbly	14 - 46	        *** 12
Creamy	16 - 48	        *** 33
Iodine	41 - 70	        *** 68
INS	136 - 165	               *** 123

Lauric	5
Myristic	2
Palmitic	11
Stearic	17
Ricinoleic	5
Oleic	49
Linoleic	9
Linolenic	0


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 19, 2015)

What are the oils used?  One interesting aspect is certain oils have a similar mix of fatty acids, but are rather different in use.  A high palm soap and a high lard soap would be similar on paper, in use they would be rather different.


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## Susie (Jul 19, 2015)

Yep, much better to tell us at least the percentages of each oil.  I have sort of tossed out using the "numbers" from SoapCalc, and go more by oils and additives to judge what it is going to be like.


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## snappyllama (Jul 19, 2015)

Ditto to everything above. The actual oils used and process make a big difference. Soap Calc is a basic guide, but one that needs to be taken with an understanding that fatty acid math doesn't tell the whole story.  I'm guessing that your example has a lot of olive oil.  On paper, it would make a very mild, low lathering, conditioning soap that is soft.  In reality, that baby is probably going to be hard as a rock after a few days, but it will need some extra cure time to shine.


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## Dorymae (Jul 19, 2015)

Looking at the numbers I would guess your recipe is a type of Bastille. High in olive oil with a bit of coconut oil and probably a bit of another oil as well. I think you are using a vegan recipe. Of course this is only a guess going off the numbers.


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## pschoe (Jul 19, 2015)

Thank you all for your in put on this - I truly appreciate it.  

This is the recipe I'm working on - I'm thinking adding using 4 oz of Essential Oil, (One ounce per pound) and use the Cold Processes method.
I will also attach my "Homework" in this exercise I've learned that just a small change in oil could make a big difference in
my numbers.

Soap 1 - is the qualities of each oil on it's own
Soap 2 - is the quality of the recipe put together.

I think the hardness of the bar will come from the babassu and Olive Oil - but I'm not sure it will be hard enough...

Oil/Fat	 ** %
Babassu Oil	         ** 10
Olive Oil	         ** 29
Almond Oil, sweet  ** 5
Neem Seed Oil     ** 21
Castor Oil	           ** 5
Shea Butter	          ** 30

PS:  This soap will be made for a very special friend of us so I want to make it as good as I can.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 19, 2015)

What was the reasoning for these oils?  What is it that you are trying to achieve?


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## KristaMarie (Jul 19, 2015)

I think your numbers look ok, but I would drop the almond oil. At five percent, you likely won't see a difference than if you had just added that amount in olive.
Maybe you're aware of this, but 20% of neem is likely to retain it's smell; in my experience, it does. That could be a non issue for you, I just find it a little gross.
Most here are going to suggest cutting the shea by a decent amount and adding lard, so it's important to know, like The Efficacious Gentleman said, why you chose the oils you did.


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## pschoe (Jul 19, 2015)

My friends suffer from severe eczema, it's really bad, so we were talking about creating a recipe that will take care of the problem without drying his skin out some more, but at the same time, leave a protection layer on his skin - and the only way I know to add good moisture is with lots of Shea Butter, but I'm always afraid of having a soft soap.


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## KristaMarie (Jul 19, 2015)

Keep in mind that saponified shea butter doesn't necessarily have the same qualities as straight shea butter. You're not likely to get a protective layer to remain, as soap is intended to rinse away. 
Even with a lot of soft oils, in most cases you'll end up with a hard enough bar after a long cure. I use a lot of butters and my soaps can still be dented after a week or more, because of the amount of water I use.
Keep your cleansing number low. Where it is now may be fine, but don't be afraid to go lower; soap will clean even at 0.
A friend of mine with bad eczema found relief with a body butter I made her, containing shea and calendula infused olive oil. Leave on products will likely be more effective, but most eczema sufferers seem to find some relief just from switching to homemade soap from synthetic detergents.
I don't use lard, but from what I've learned here, it's very conditioning, so you may want to consider that as well.


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## pschoe (Jul 19, 2015)

Thanks - I eliminate the almond oil.
I was wondering if I could melt the shea butter and keep half a side add with the essential oils  just before I mold the soap?  Maybe this will make it more moisturizing?
This is the new numbers 
Neem Seed Oil	20
Shea Butter	25
Castor Oil	10
Coconut Oil, 76 deg   5
Argan Oil	10
Olive Oil	30


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## not_ally (Jul 19, 2015)

I'm going to second concerns about the neem.  I don't know if you've already bought it, or smelled it before, but it is pretty nasty.  I have used it as a pest control substance in the garden, and it was sufficiently gross that I have never considered putting it in soap.


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## snappyllama (Jul 19, 2015)

Unfortunately, you cannot selectively superfat an oil with CP.  The lye monster will consume what it wants and a few minutes one way or the other won't make a difference in the final result.  If you do want to pick a particular oil to superfat your batch, you'll have to HP it and add it after the cook is complete.


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## KristaMarie (Jul 19, 2015)

I wouldn't bother with argan either. Lol. It's so expensive! Totally up to you, it won't hurt by any means.
Like snappy said, there's no way to ensure that the shea won't be completely consumed by lye. If you have your heart set on using the shea as your superfat, then you have to hot process.
What superfat/lye discount percentage are you planning on?
Soap isn't meant to be moisturizing, rather, you're looking to avoid stripping your skin's natural oils, which is why you want to keep the cleaning number low. That being said, your recipe should be good on that front!


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## DeeAnna (Jul 19, 2015)

If you are concerned about moisturizing, soap is not going to be an effective moisturizer. You need to put those fancy oils in a lotion or butter or cream or something like that to use after washing, so they'll stay on the skin and do some good.


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## Nevada (Jul 19, 2015)

and those oh so expensive essential oils



DeeAnna said:


> If you are concerned about moisturizing, soap is not going to be an effective moisturizer. You need to put those fancy oils in a lotion or butter or cream or something like that to use after washing, so they'll stay on the skin and do some good.


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## pschoe (Jul 19, 2015)

Thanks for all the info.
I will remove the argan I thought I was adding a tad bit of extra goodness.  The superfat is set at 7%
I Don't know what other fats to use and if it would be successful - I was playing with lard and crisco, but so far I've only used shea butter in my recipes. 

I have no idea about the smell of neem - but when you care about your friends and they would do anything to get relief, you brace yourself and do your best.  I am getting a bit worried because everyone is saying it smell really-really bad.  But I do want to put enough neem to make it strong enough so we will reap the benefits we are looking for


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## KristaMarie (Jul 19, 2015)

Those fats are just fine. Adding fancy oils is fun, but totally not necessary! You can just make it 40% olive and it'll be just as non-drying.
I actually really like neem, despite it's stinkiness, just wanted you to be prepared


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## Susie (Jul 19, 2015)

Sorry, did not read before posting.  

OK, we need to talk about eczema.  Again.  Please use the search to look up eczema, or use Google to look up "Soapmaking forum/eczema."

First off, eczema does not have any magical cure.  However, if you take away the cause, then you get less(or no) more eczema.  So, the idea is to remove potential causes FIRST.

Start with soap, yes.  Quite often people find that their eczema is minimized in the extreme JUST by switching to a true soap, and away from the synthetic detergents in most commercial soap.  Mine is completely gone now.  The soap is not the cure, though.  It is simply taking away the trigger.  

Secondly, though, you need to look at laundry detergent and/or dryer sheets.  You need to(and everyone else) switch to either "free and clear" products, or make your own soap and skip the fabric softeners. 

Then, if that does not work, you have to go to a doctor and figure out what is causing the eczema.   

Now, for what kind of soap you are looking to make, I would avoid all fragrances until everyone is eczema free.  I would also avoid high coconut oil soaps-stay with 15% or less.  I LOVE my lard soaps for how conditioning they are.  This is my (current) favorite recipe:

Lard 80%
Coconut Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5-8%(5% for summer, 8% for winter)

If your nose is sensitive, though, you could go more to this:

Lard 55%
Olive 25%
Coconut Oil 20%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5-8%


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## not_ally (Jul 19, 2015)

I think eczema, Susie, right P?  P, have you done a search for that on the forum?  I know I have come across references to it many times.  It might make more sense to see if someone has made one that worked well than to try it as one of your first soaps w/untested ingredients.  Eg, here's one I did by typing "eczema" into sitecomber w/smf as the search site, there are quite a few results:

http://sitecomber.com/search.php?domains=www.sitecomber.com&client=pub-1307489338039489&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23FFFFFF%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A150567%3BALC%3A000000%3BLC%3A000000%3BT%3A0000FF%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BLH%3A0%3BLW%3A0%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fsitecomber.com%2Flogo-490x90.jpg%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sitecomber.com%3BFORID%3A11&hl=en&channel=5823071447&q=eczema&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soapmakingforum.com&sa=Search&safe=active

ETA:  cross-posted w/susie ...


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## DeeAnna (Jul 20, 2015)

This topic has morphed from what do the soapcalc numbers mean ... to making a special soap for a special friend ... to making soap for someone with eczema. Whew!

As far as eczema goes, listen to Susie and Not_ally. We (and you) are not qualified to diagnose eczema, and now is not the time to play doctor with all the unusual ingredients. You could do more harm than good.


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## pschoe (Jul 20, 2015)

Maybe for the reader the topic morphed a bit - but for me I have learned a lot, I have ran each suggested recipe or change through the lye calculator - Then looked at the numbers again - see what changed and then trying to figure out which numbers show a better soap.
The attachments will show what we've been doing so far.  I truly appreciate all the input I received 
The first photo is the numbers we started with.
The second photo is 80% lard
The third photo is 55% lard
The Last photo is the recipe with out the argan oil suggestion.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 20, 2015)

In your last recipe, you have too much Castor.   You have a lot of liquid oils going on and that high Castor may make it even softer and stickier.   I don't go above 7%.   You just need to make the recipes and let them cure then see how you like them and compare them.


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## not_ally (Jul 20, 2015)

P, I think it is great that you care so much about your friend and that you want to help him.  What if you do this:  do a search, pick out a post with a recipe that looks like it would be effective.  Make it.  Also make the one that you come up with yourself.  Give him both and say "here's a couple of options, I wanted to make sure you had choices since this is so important."  That way he really will have a chance to see if his eczema responds to handmade soap.

I understand why brand-new soapers want to try out new things, I really do, it is fun and seems like such a wide open world.  But he is someone who could potentially really benefit from the right soap, you don't want to dissuade him from finding it/using it if yours is not the one *because* it is the result of inexperience.  Plus it will make you feel bad if that happens.  If he even tells you, he might not want to hurt your feelings.  I hope I haven't, like I said, I think it is a lovely thought in the first place.


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## Obsidian (Jul 20, 2015)

I know you keep getting a lot of recipe suggestion but here is one more for you to look at. I would leave out the shea for now, it can irritate some people and it really doesn't do much for soap besides make creamy lather. 

You'd need to re run this through soapcal to adjust batch size and superfat. Neem smells like rotten garlic and/or peanuts. The smell settles some with a long cure.


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## pschoe (Jul 20, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> I know you keep getting a lot of recipe suggestion but here is one more for you to look at. I would leave out the shea for now, it can irritate some people and it really doesn't do much for soap besides make creamy lather.
> 
> You'd need to re run this through soapcal to adjust batch size and superfat. Neem smells like rotten garlic and/or peanuts. The smell settles some with a long cure.



Thank you so much - I appreciate your input and the recipe.  I really feel sorry for him, because he have it on his knees, elbows and hands, he is a very sweet guy, and it make him self-conscious. And he often need to meet with new clients for work.  So I hope with a good soap, lots of care and love, and some faith, we could bring some relief for him. 

If all goes well - I will make your recipe in the morning - do you use HP Or CP, I was thinking to do HP and add the neem after the cooking process - What's your thought?


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## LittleCrazyWolf (Jul 20, 2015)

I really like not_ally's suggestion of giving him two different soaps to try. It will be easier for him to compare and say "this one helped more than this other one" and that will help you revise your recipe if necessary.

I haven't used neem or shea so can't advise you there except that I know some people are really sensitive to shea. I would try the neem in one of the batches and see how you like it.

I make a soap for sensitive skin and don't use any of the "cleansing" or "bubbly" oils. The lather is still really nice (I add goats milk), instead of big bubbles I get more of a creamy foam. My son and I both use this and it cleans well and we don't need to lotion up after (he has eczema and I have dry/sensitive skin). 

I'm also a huge fan of lard in soaps, to me it adds hardness as well as being gentle. It's actually my favorite oil to soap with. I can't say enough good things about it.


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## not_ally (Jul 20, 2015)

Lard is the bomb.  Other things are good with it, but if I had to pick one in the whole wide soaping world, lard would be it.


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## Susie (Jul 20, 2015)

The friend needs to use all of one bar *before* starting the other.  He needs to give each soap a whole month to work before judging.


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## pschoe (Jul 21, 2015)

Thank you all for your input and advice.  I will make more than one soap for him.  I know this will be a journey but one that is worth going on - Hope you all will have a Blessed day and happy soaping - I will post photo's of the recipes I make for him


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## pschoe (Jul 21, 2015)

I've made the Neem soap today - My daughter said it smell like peanut butter 
I wasn't sure if I was suppose to add the neem from the beginning or at the end so Added it kinda half-way through
I was afraid the heat could cook out all the goodness of the neem.


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## KristaMarie (Jul 21, 2015)

Awesome! I can't remember if this has been covered in this thread yet, but make sure you give it at least a 4 week cure. Hot process is safe to use same day, but still benefits from a good cure!


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## not_ally (Jul 21, 2015)

Oh, good, peanut butter is a lovely result compared to uncooked neem!  I am really curious to see how it comes out after cure, and if your friend loves it, let us know.


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## pschoe (Jul 21, 2015)

Thanks - I will post an update when it is cured abit more 
It was difficult to do the ZAP test - the Neem is really nasty on your tongue - I did it once then cook another 30 minutes just to be sure


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