# SMF April 2018 Challenge - Sous Vide (HP) Soap swirling!



## SaltedFig (Apr 3, 2018)

*Challenge – Sous Vide HP Soap*

Hi everyone and welcome to this month's soap challenge ... HP soaping in a bag, or Sous Vide HP.

I think this is new (I have only seen soaps being melted in a bag for rebatching in the past) ... so it's a bit of a collective experiment as well as a challenge.

The idea is to create a soap that is fully saponified, so some of the more lye sensitive ingredients can be added after the cook. I want to swirl too, like I do with my cold process soaps, but without changing or adding to the recipe ingredients.

So the idea for this months challenge is to make a Sous Vide HP soap in at least two colors, and swirl them in the mold. Any swirl style and any number of colors are welcome. The choice of design is entirely up to you and how you choose to use this technique.

*The Sous Vide HP soap technique:
*
Sous Vide HP Soap is a simplification of the original food technique. Making Sous Vide HP soap doesn’t require thermometers, vacuum sealers, immersion heaters or any other additional equipment. You can make Sous Vide Soap with the equipment you already have for soaping

The concept is to gently cook your soap in a water bath, using a plastic bag (that will double later as a piping bag) inside a jug or jar (I used plastic pouring jugs because the handle stays cool and it’s easy to move around).

The equipment that is required (other than the actual ingredients and usual safety equipment) are some BPA-free ziplock bags or roasting bags, some jugs or jars (for the plastic bags to sit inside) and any old pot to boil water in

The soap batter is made in the same way that cold process soap is made. If you are using an existing HP recipe, you might want to reduce the water (there’s no water loss with this technique).

Place the plastic bags into the jugs, and divide the soap batter is between them, and add colour and additives as you would for CP soap making … before the cook.

Once you have finished mixing your separated colors, press the air carefully out of the bag (it doesn’t have to be perfect, just get out as much as you comfortably can) and seal the bag shut.

The jug and it’s bag are placed into hot water (keep it just under a simmer, if you can see bubbles but they aren’t breaking the surface, that's about perfect!).

Two important things with this method:

1/ the water line must come up to the same level on the outside of the jug as the soap filled bag does on the inside (otherwise the top may be too cold to gel) and;

2/ insulate the top (I used jugs and teatowels, but canning jars in a canning bath would work perfectly, as long as the lid was not sealed closed - just catch the lid to the jar so there is no air pressure build up during the cook.)

Examples of Sous Vide HP soaps
I've had two attempts at this so far. Both have taken about ½ an hour to cook, with the first one being a few minutes longer because I kept taking it in and out of the bath to look at it and photograph it

Once the soap is fully gelled (it goes dark and gets up to about 85C, or around 185F, in the centre) it is brought out of the bath and is ready pour directly from the bag into the mold.

For my first batch I cooled the soap in the bag on my table, to see at what point it would start setting up. One thing I did think of is that the sous vide soap could be left in the water bath and cooled a little bit there (to avoid cold spots in the corners), but I haven’t tried that yet.

Anyway, these are my first attempts at Sous Vide HP soapmaking (I bet you can already tell I'm not normally a HP soaper!):





Key points:

1/ Use heat resistant, BPA free bags. I used #5 plastic ziplock bags, but tied off oven bags would also work.

2/ The water bath is kept at no more than a simmer, and the water must come all the way up the height of the soap.

3/ Don’t turn ziplock bags upside down – the soap will cause the seal to fail (upside – if you do have a failure, it’s in a jug, so it can be poured into a new bag without any trouble at all) … and yes, I have a photo of that 

4/ Pour or pipe the soap hot, and if you are swirling, you will need to be reasonably quick - the starts to form a skin as soon as it begins cooling, which is quick.

If you would like to try the additive step (adding things after the cook), it would be terrific to see how that goes!

So … Aprils challenge is to make Sous Vide HP soap in at least two colors and blend them.

The basic rule of this soap is that the soap is hot process in a sealed bag, and piped or poured from that bag into the mold while it is still hot. Other than this, all colours, styles, piping methods, molds etc. are allowed.

Please take a photo of your process and a photo of your finished soap for the entry thread.

Background:

The idea of melting soap in an oven bag for rebatching has been around for years. This is a thread from 8 years ago on this very forum, talking about the different types of bags that can (should?) be used for rebatching this way.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/rebatching-with-an-oven-bag.17269/

Over at the spruce, there’s a lovely sequence of photo’s of the same rebatching concept, from just this year (including a piping photo):
https://www.thespruce.com/how-to-rebatch-soap-517103

During the soap dough challenge, we used ziplock bags to cure cold process soap.
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/prep-for-february-challenge.68662/page-3#post-684574

(PS. Cleanup is a breeze )


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 3, 2018)

A pictorial I made from my first Sous Vide HP soaps:
(Please excuse the terrible coloring ... and the yellow )

Preparation:
Bring a large pot or pan of water to the boil. There needs to be enough water to come up the sides of the jugs (or jars) to the top of the soap level.

Step 1/ Make the soap batter.



Step 2/ Pour the batter into the pre-prepared bags in jugs (or jars)



Step 3/ Color the soap



Step 4/ Seal the bags (you don't need to take them out)



Step 5/ Back in the jugs (if you didn't take them out, this will be your step 4)



Step 6/ Simmer until dark and translucent (they need insulating at the top, I added a tea-towel later)



Step 7/ Simmer in water deep enough to come to the top of where the soap is in the jug (you can see the line where it wasn't hot enough in this first attempt)



Step 8/ The jugs make it easy to take the soap out of the water



Step 9/ Checking the temperature of the gelled soap (with a cheap thermometer)



Step 10/ Cooling (I cooled mine out flat, they could be cooled in the jug and/or in the water bath to avoid the colder parts setting up)



Next post ...


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 3, 2018)

Step 11/ Squishing the soap around (it was hand warm by this stage) was fun! I was trying to work the colder parts into the warm bits. Better to keep them the same temperature in the first place is the conclusion I came to.



Step 12/ Piping into the mold (this was really hard to photograph, sorry - it was late and I was juggling fast moving soap and photography - neither won )



Step 13/ Soap on an outrageously lime green mat


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 3, 2018)

Lucky last, challenge rules ...

Please enter one picture of your process and one picture of your entry soap to the Entry thread.

The Entry Thread will open on April 19th and close on the 25th. Voting will start on the 26th and close on April 30th.


PLEASE BE SURE TO READ THIS FIRST (and ALL Rules)-

General Rules:
1. The only members eligible to vote are those with their names on the sign up list - regardless of whether or not you have submitted an entry.

2. This month’s voting will be password locked. Passwords will be PM'ed to registered participants ONLY. So please check your PM's when the voting begins.

3. No posting your entry photos until the entry thread is made. Non entry photos are very welcome!

4. You are allowed to change your entry photo up until the entry thread closes. So if you decide after you post your entry you want another try, and you like the second better, you can change it up until the deadline.

SMF Challenge General Rules
· To enter you must have a minimum of 50 posts and been a member for a month (sorry but no exceptions on this)
· Please add your name to the sign up list if you wish to participate (however, you don’t have to enter a soap at the end if you don’t feel happy with what you have produced)
· The challenge thread should be used to upload pictures of any of your challenge attempts where you can ask for advice and discuss the technique with other members.
· Constructive criticism is welcomed, but please try to keep your comments polite.
· Competition entries must be uploaded to the separate entry thread before the closing date. The thread will open on April 19, 2018 (Please follow the challenge specific rules as to what you need to enter)
· After the closing date April 25, 2018 the winning entry will be chosen using survey monkey and the winner announced on May 2nd or 3rd, 2018. There is no prize attached to this challenge.
· If you fail to make the challenge deadline, you are still welcome to upload your soap onto the thread, but your entry will not be eligible for voting. We still love to see anything you have produced.
· Even though there is no prize, this is still a competition. If your entry is deemed not to fulfil the general rules or the rules specific to the challenge in any way, then you will be given the opportunity to amend your entry. If this is not possible then your entry will not be included in the voting.
· The challenge team reserves the right to have the final say on whether a soap is eligible for for voting.


----------



## dibbles (Apr 4, 2018)

Sign Up:

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 4, 2018)

Just to make sure I have the process: make CP, gel in a double boiler, pour?

Sign Up:

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!


----------



## SunRiseArts (Apr 4, 2018)

Never done this, I will give it a try!

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts -  ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 4, 2018)

The key to the sous-vide HP method is the use of an air-tight bag to contain the soap while it's cooked.

The only concern I have with any metal being used is that the bag will melt by heat transfer quite quickly (I didn't take a photo of it, but one of my experiments involved pegging the bags to a metal skewer so the seal could be kept out of the water - the bag failed because the skewer transferred enough heat to the plastic to melt it).

If you think this won't be a problem with your double-boiler setup then, although the heat source wouldn't be as diffuse as being fully submerged immersed in water, which is what worked for the jug system, a double-boiler might work if you want to put your bag in that. Worth a try, if you want to give it a go! 

Which reminds me ... experimenting with alternate heat systems for the Sous Vide Soap, like bamboo steamers, oil baths and other systems, is within the rules (thanks for the question Battle Gnome!) 

*Edited to correct the impression - in the water-bath version, the water should come up the sides of the jug to at least the level of the top of the soap (immersed), but it does not go inside the jug (submerged) .


----------



## Lin19687 (Apr 4, 2018)

When do you add the FO ?

Could you do this in a Crock pot with water inside?


----------



## earlene (Apr 4, 2018)

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts -  ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!

Great challenge idea, *SaltedFig*!

SaltedFig, do you have a photo of the filled jugs in the simmering water bath? I am trying to wrap my head around how to do this without the plastic cups melting. I assume you used a stock pot steamer to lift the jugs up off the floor of the pot?


----------



## amd (Apr 4, 2018)

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...


----------



## dibbles (Apr 4, 2018)

Having never done HP I don’t have experience to go on. By the time you are putting  the soap into the mold, it seems like it is already very thick, or is it somewhat fluid? We are looking at doing a spoon or chopstick type of swirl? Or a layered kind of design?


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 4, 2018)

earlene said:


> Great challenge idea, *SaltedFig*!
> 
> SaltedFig, do you have a photo of the filled jugs in the simmering water bath? I am trying to wrap my head around how to do this without the plastic cups melting. I assume you used a stock pot steamer to lift the jugs up off the floor of the pot?



Thank you Earlene 

The setup is similar to canning - in this example (using a more shallow pot that I would like - it made for easier photo's) you can see the rack to hold the pots out of the water. This photo was taken near the end, so the soap is just about fully translucent.





dibbles said:


> Having never done HP I don’t have experience to go on. By the time you are putting  the soap into the mold, it seems like it is already very thick, or is it somewhat fluid? We are looking at doing a spoon or chopstick type of swirl? Or a layered kind of design?



It's still a lot thicker than cold process (a lot like thick trace), especially if it's piped cooler (piped hot it is a lot thinner, but it's hot to handle).

So spoon rather than chopsticks for the swirl, I reckon.

The first batch was spoon swirled (it was cooler and thick) and the second batch I skewer swirled. I am keeping a bit of a diary on it in this thread: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/can-i-ask-your-opinion.69718/

I'll be giving batch 3 a go today, and I plan on using a whiter recipe to show the swirl better. I might go in between swirling tool sizes and use a paddle pop stick


----------



## scard (Apr 4, 2018)

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?


----------



## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2018)

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.


----------



## Serene (Apr 4, 2018)

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.
8. Serene-Someone save me from myself.


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 5, 2018)

What bags are everyone finding that are appropriate?

I have GV ziptop baggies and Reynolds crockpot bags at the moment, neither have a number in the recycling code. So far the best I can find is a comment that the GV bags are polyethylene which I don’t remember being acceptable for lye.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 5, 2018)

Hi BattleGnome.

The bags I used are a common BPA-free ziplock PE plastic bag.

They are not as sturdy as HDPE (#2 plastic), but are resistant to lye and moderate heat.

The only trouble I had was when I melted one that I'd clipped to a metal skewer 
(the heat from the pot rim traveled along the metal skewer and melted the top of the bag)

So, if yours is also PE, then it should work the same


----------



## earlene (Apr 5, 2018)

When I made the soap dough, I used the pretty standard sandwich size zip-lock baggies, whatever brand was cheapest at my local Walmart, and a couple other brands from other stores I have acquired along the way, so they are not all the Great Value brand that Wal-Mart carries. I put the batter directly into the baggies and let it gel in the baggie. I still have soap dough in some of those same baggies and they have not deteriorated to a visible degree, so I think they are just fine for this purpose. That was a couple of months ago when I made the soap dough.


----------



## SoapAddict415 (Apr 5, 2018)

Serene said:


> 1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
> 2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
> 3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
> 4. earlene - I've got to try this!
> ...


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 6, 2018)

First batch down, hopefully I’ll have time for more.

For my method I filled a crockpot with water, then lined it and put my baggies in the liner to double it up. It took roughly 90minutes to gel from a cold crock. It could have been a bit shorter than that paused checking to eat. Of course I also decided I didn’t like myself and piped my soap straight from the water bath instead of waiting a few minutes for it to cool. Don’t do that. It was annoying.


----------



## Lin19687 (Apr 6, 2018)

I wondered if the crock would work.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 6, 2018)

BattleGnome said:


> First batch down, hopefully I’ll have time for more.
> 
> For my method I filled a crockpot with water, then lined it and put my baggies in the liner to double it up. It took roughly 90minutes to gel from a cold crock. It could have been a bit shorter than that paused checking to eat. Of course I also decided I didn’t like myself and piped my soap straight from the water bath instead of waiting a few minutes for it to cool. Don’t do that. It was annoying.



So you are using the liner instead of the jug? Nice idea 

Can you add hot water to a cold crock pot?



Lin19687 said:


> I wondered if the crock would work.



Join in!


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 6, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Can you add hot water to a cold crock pot?



Probably, as long as it isn’t boiling. Another option would be to turn the crock on before starting to assemble ingredients. I have limited counter space and didn’t want to worry about accidents. 

One thing I didn’t mention. My batch size wasn’t quite big enough to weight down into the water on its own. There was enough excess plastic to bundle up and push down the batter with the lid on. My batch was a bit over 2#


----------



## Lin19687 (Apr 6, 2018)

I would but I do HP in the Crock, and I make messes.  Not good to add baggies to my routine, god knows what will happen  

But I am Watching this !
Do you add FO in the begining?  Does it burn off?


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 6, 2018)

I developed this method so that I could cool the soap down enough to add warmed essential oils (and other ingredients) after saponification and still be able to swirl the soap ... without having to resort to additives or special equipment to achieve it 



Lin19687 said:


> Do you add FO in the begining?  Does it burn off?



I personally don't add FO in the beginning

If the fragrance oil is stable for use in a CPOP/gelled soap recipe, then I would imagine that it would also be stable in SVHP soap (the Sous Vide soap isn't meant to get very hot), but I'll leave the experienced answer to someone who has added FO at the start.


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 6, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> Do you add FO in the begining?  Does it burn off?



I add FO upfront, it stayed strong through the cook and so far it’s still sticking. It was blueberry jam from BB, in my experience BB scents tend to be super strong


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 10, 2018)

The yellow is starting to tone down in the olive/avocado soaps (thank goodness!).

I have discovered that I like steaming as a method of delivering the warmth as well, although more care needs to be taken to ensure that it's a very gentle steaming process (my first soap got a little hotter than I want for this method - the whole point is gentle, airless, heat ).

I'll be posting up some more observations and test pours in the sous-vide experimentation thread fairly soon.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 10, 2018)

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.
8. Serene-Someone save me from myself.
9. SoapAddict415- I may not get a chance to try the challenge but I'd still like to vote.
10. DeeAnna -- I need more practice with HP, so HP-in-a-bag -- here I come!


----------



## Serene (Apr 10, 2018)

Woo Hoo YAY DeeAnna!!


----------



## redhead1226 (Apr 10, 2018)

Do you think that the Seal a meal bags can work? You can boil them in water.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 10, 2018)

If they're safe for simmering water, I'd try 'em. I'm thinking about using my vacuum sealer bags -- heavy duty, also safe to use in simmering water. I trust them more than a zip lock -- I've had too many of them leak at the corners. Grrr.


----------



## redhead1226 (Apr 10, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> If they're safe for simmering water, I'd try 'em. I'm thinking about using my vacuum sealer bags -- heavy duty, also safe to use in simmering water. I trust them more than a zip lock -- I've had too many of them leak at the corners. Grrr.



Yes thats the bag Im talking about. Ok if your thinking about them I am too lol. Yes better then a zip lock i think and I dont need the container. just put them in the water. Should we seal them? Or do they need to breathe a little?


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 10, 2018)

SaltedFig said ...press the air carefully out of the bag (it doesn’t have to be perfect, just get out as much as you comfortably can) and seal the bag shut...." so if it's reasonably safe, I'd seal the bag. It will be a little more tricky than zipping a bag closed, but it's do-able I think. 

If sealing the bag doesn't seem like a good idea, a person could also just fold the open top over several times and seal with a clip, like you'd close a potato chip bag. I use those metal binder clips from the office supply store -- they would be heat proof.


----------



## earlene (Apr 10, 2018)

I often seal soup stock in my vacuum seal bags.  Yes, it's tricky.  Stock leaks while the vacuum seal is sucking air out of the bag, so I wouldn't squeeze all the air out with active lye in the batter.  If you can hold your bag below the level of the counter where your sealer sits, that can help prevent too much spillage.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 10, 2018)

I took them out and sat them upright, sealed the ziplock seal as far along as I could, then laid the bag gently flat to finish getting the air out. I did seal some directly in the pot. I think too much air would be a problem (it expands), but a little is ok.

Any safe, airtight bag (and bag sealing method) and any gentle heat method would be ok.



redhead1226 said:


> Yes thats the bag Im talking about. Ok if your thinking about them I am too lol. Yes better then a zip lock i think and I dont need the container. just put them in the water. Should we seal them? Or do they need to breathe a little?


Redhead, I found that the seal (of the bags I use) need to be kept out of the water, otherwise they fail (small sample rate, but about 30% seam failure, or bag opening, when the seal is wet from either being in boiling water or being turned upside down).
Your bags sound like they were made for being put into boiling water, so perfect!

The bag needs to be kept airtight for the entire cook.

*edited to keep adding 


earlene said:


> I often seal soup stock in my vacuum seal bags.  Yes, it's tricky.  Stock leaks while the vacuum seal is sucking air out of the bag, so I wouldn't squeeze all the air out with active lye in the batter.  If you can hold your bag below the level of the counter where your sealer sits, that can help prevent too much spillage.



I agree, if you can get most of the air out, without laying it flat, then do that (I did it initially to take photo's).

[I haven't tried vacuum sealing soap batter, and I won't. I'd end up hurting myself and making a mess!]

*edited to add more
I also had a bag-melting event, when I clipped the bags to a metal skewer ... the skewer transferred heat.
When I steam them, I put them directly into the bamboo steamer, the steam needs to be very gentle.

The jug was to ensure no mess from bag failure (which has not been needed, except for the above noted seal immersions) and to ensure gentle heat (which could be controlled in other ways).

I have found the suis-vide temperature needs to be well below a simmer when placed directly in the water or steam environment, as high, rapid heat causes bubbles in the soap.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 10, 2018)

I don't use the vacuum when packaging really liquidy stuff like soup. I just gently press out as much of the air as I can by hand, and then heat seal the bag. A few bubbles escape my efforts, but not too bad with a little practice. I'd rather have a bubble or two than have to clean up that mess from trying to use the vacuum. 

I think I'd do the same with this soap making method too.


----------



## redhead1226 (Apr 10, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> SaltedFig said ...press the air carefully out of the bag (it doesn’t have to be perfect, just get out as much as you comfortably can) and seal the bag shut...." so if it's reasonably safe, I'd seal the bag. It will be a little more tricky than zipping a bag closed, but it's do-able I think.
> 
> If sealing the bag doesn't seem like a good idea, a person could also just fold the open top over several times and seal with a clip, like you'd close a potato chip bag. I use those metal binder clips from the office supply store -- they would be heat proof.



Oh I see she said that lol - Aging isnt kind!

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.
8. Serene-Someone save me from myself.
9. SoapAddict415- I may not get a chance to try the challenge but I'd still like to vote.
10. DeeAnna -- I need more practice with HP, so HP-in-a-bag -- here I come!
11. Redhead1226 - Ill give it a go!


----------



## earlene (Apr 10, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> I don't use the vacuum when packaging really liquidy stuff like soup. I just gently press out as much of the air as I can by hand, and then heat seal the bag. A few bubbles escape my efforts, but not too bad with a little practice. I'd rather have a bubble or two than have to clean up that mess from trying to use the vacuum.
> 
> I think I'd do the same with this soap making method too.



I forgot to mention that normally I fill the open bag with soup, then place it upright in the freezer (in a container to help it stay upright) and don't seal it until the next day.  That way it's not a liquid, but a solid.  Some liquid still gets sucked out with the vacuum seal, but not like when it is melted.

I am sorry I left that out in my previous post.  I don't know what I was thinking to leave out that bit of information!  Of course freezing soap batter for this would only prolong the process.

I wonder if my vacuum sealer can do heat only and not vacuum.  I should check as that might be a good way to go on this project.


----------



## SoapAddict415 (Apr 10, 2018)

I can't wait to see all of the pics! I'm excited already!


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 10, 2018)

I've had two vac sealers now, and they both have the option to just heat seal without vacuum, so yours might too. It might be really helpful for this challenge as well as for food items.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 10, 2018)

I've been looking for hot process design inspiration on the 'net tonight. I've found a few ideas, but I'm going to have to draw my hunt to a close. I'm so very frustrated with the large number of hot process tutorials that cheerily insist HP soap doesn't need time to cure -- that a long cure is only for cold process soap. 

I'm not overly fond of animated GIFs, but I'm making an exception for this one. It's perfectly appropriate for how I feel --


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 11, 2018)

Did my first try last night. Used a 1 gallon heavy bag meant for vacuum sealing, but I didn't put it in a pitcher -- just added it directly to the water bath. I also did not heat seal the bag. I just rolled the top over several times and closed it with a metal binder clip. I made sure the rolled over top stayed above the water level at all times. I pulled the water bath pot slightly to one side of the burner (gas flame) and kept the exposed plastic and metal clip on the cooler side of the pot. The water bath was at 180 F (80 C). The whole process took about 1 hour starting when I put the soap-batter-in-a-bag into the preheated water bath and ended with the soap in the mold.

Starting the cook. The batter was mixed to emulsion, and then poured into the bag. I included the fragrance, because I figured it won't evaporate if sealed in a bag and it's one less thing to mix in at the end. Adding the FO up front seemed to work fine, but -- note to self -- don't try mixing the batter in the bag again.  The batter at this point is liquidy, like thin gravy, and uniformly opaque.




Gel stage. 25 minutes later, the soap batter has become a non-pourable paste. The darker, more translucent spots are where the soap is in gel. I took the bag out of the water bath a time or two and gently mixed the paste through the bag with my gloved hands. You could wear leather gloves to protect your hands from the heat, but my nitrile gloves worked fine for brief moments of mixing.



I kept cooking the soap for another 20 minutes until almost all of the soap was in obvious gel. I'm not sure I needed to cook it the extra 20 mins, but I did it anyways, just to be on the safe side.



Coloring. I opened the bag and spooned out portions of soap after the cook for coloring. I closed the bag and put it back in the water bath to keep it warm. I added pigmented color to the cups of hot soap and mixed with a chopstick. I then glopped the colors back into the main bag, held the top of the bag closed with one hand, and quickly mixed the soap by massaging through the bag with the other hand. I tried to get the colors mixed enough without overmixing, but it was anybody's guess at that point how it was going to look -- all I could tell is it looked pretty messy.



Molding. I cut off one lower corner of the bag and squirted the soap into the mold, going back and forth to distribute the colors a little more evenly throughout the loaf. I ran a chopstick through the soap, with the idea that this might add a little more swirly-ness to the colors. I tidied the top as best as possible, but by that time, the surface had hardened up enough that I couldn't do a lot to it. I let it cool overnight and cut it into bars this morning.



I used almost exactly the same recipe for this soap as for the CP batches I've been making lately, so I can directly compare the sous vide HP with my usual CP soap. What is the same: The fat blend of lard, HO sunflower, coconut, and avocado. 3% superfat. 33% lye concentration. 5% KOH, 95% NaOH.  What's different: Sodium lactate at 1.5% ppo added to the batter before the cook and 1 tablespoon yogurt (in 500 grams of fat) added right before coloring the soap. The water in these additives might have reduced the lye concentration by 1-2%, a minor difference.

The sous vide soap was fine to unmold and cut this morning (exactly like my CP soap). It is definitely a little softer than my regular CP, but not nearly as soft as the HP I've made with 25% lye concentration. This batch has a smooth texture that's closer to the look of CP soap -- not the usual "rustic" HP look. I'll leave the "reveal" of the cut soap for later.


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 13, 2018)

My second batch had some gremlins, and didn’t turn out how I wanted. The goal was a DNA swirl but I did get some great texture. 

Gremlin #1: I forgot to change the water setting and didn’t realize it until I has already mixed in my citric acid. Not so much an issue as an annoyance.

Gremlin #2: I tried to pour batter into an unsupported bag and spilled. User error, quick wipe down (color #1)

Gremlin #3: grabbed a cup to support my bags, spilled again. Another wipe down (still color #1)

Gremlin #4: color 2 just poured messy and got all over the seal. Just annoying.

Gremlin #5: color #3 was CP liquid when I poured and it altered my design. Not too much of a huge issue, my bar thickness is uneven but it leaves me with a few testers.




My crockpot set up. Color 3 had shifted under the other two and was probably completely submerged, compared to the other two. I tried to pipe splotches but it flowed a bit too fast and covered the other colors. Not quite what I wanted but the bars still turned out nice.




There’s supposed to be gold, black, and grey. The black is 95% covered by the grey. I think if the soap had been a uniform texture I would have splotched better and gotten almost a perfect swirl. No picture of the cut, they’re just standard chunky bars


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 13, 2018)

Second batch done last night using a method fairly similar to the first. The idea of having to dirty up a bowl to emulsify the batter bothers the engineer in me. It sure would be an elegant solution to just weigh and mix everything in the bag.

From the first batch, I learned the hard way that stick blending in the bag is a fraught task. I think it could be done, but any small error will puncture the bag in an instant. I think a person would need to make an open "shark cage" of wire to prevent the mixer blade from touching the bag. I also learned that hand stirring or whisking in the bag is difficult and messy.

For this batch, I put the soap ingredients in the bag, closed the bag with a binder clip same as before, put the bag in the water bath to cook. Every 5-10 minutes, I took the bag out of the water bath, held it in the sink for safety, and massaged the mixture through the bag.

As you can imagine, it was slow going. After an hour of heating and massage, I could see soap grains forming and the mixture was gradually thickening, but the batter STILL wasn't emulsified. I could tell it might be another hour before the soap would give in and emulsify. And I was getting tired. <sigh> So I gave up, poured the batter into a bowl, SB'ed it to emulsion, put the batter back in the bag, and cooked it. It went quickly into gel and turned out fine.


----------



## dixiedragon (Apr 13, 2018)

How did you color the soap? Do you stick blend in side the baggie, or whisk or what?


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 13, 2018)

I colored the cooked soap, not the batter. I cooked just one bag of soap for the whole batch, and then poured portions from the bag into cups, added color, and stirred like crazy by hand. No SB because at that point I didn't want to cool the soap down any more than necessary.

Do the challenge rules say a person must portion off the batter for coloring and then do the cook? Gosh I hope not, cuz I've done it wrong if so.  I know that's how SaltedFig did it, but it wasn't working as well in my head to do that -- it made more sense to me to divide the soap for coloring after the cook. I'll give the rules another read.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 13, 2018)

Hi! You surprised me when you cooked first and colored second, but the SVHP idea was designed to be able to add additives after the cook. I personally think its easy to mix up the colors first, but that's just me doing things my way (and not a rule at all). So no problems - add colors when it suits your process .

... and I'm interested in following up on your idea of mixing in the bag ... that makes a lot of sense (I've mostly abandoned the pot for steaming, so this is a possible refinement as well).

I am concerned that there might be a bit of a difference with clipped bags, instead of air-tight. Have you tried a completely airtight setup (or do you think that your's was air tight?) I suspect there is a subtle difference ... but I'm not sure yet.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 13, 2018)

Well, you have a point there, SaltedFig, and I'll give that a think. I imagine if I use this technique more so I don't feel like I'm fumbling around with all thumbs, I'll eventually learn what works.

I am wondering if adding color to the cooked soap vs. to the batter might create a different look. At least in the two batches I've made, the color looks more like soft washes of watercolor paint. Kind of pretty, if I do say so myself.

To be fair, I haven't compared my "add color to cooked soap" method with the "add color to the batter" method. Maybe both methods give that kind of look. I guess I'll have to try it and see.

PS -- Thanks for the reassurance about the rules. I appreciate that!


----------



## dibbles (Apr 13, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> The idea of having to dirty up a bowl to emulsify the batter bothers the engineer in me. It sure would be an elegant solution to just weigh and mix everything in the bag.
> 
> From the first batch, I learned the hard way that stick blending in the bag is a fraught task. I think it could be done, but any small error will puncture the bag in an instant. I think a person would need to make an open "shark cage" of wire to prevent the mixer blade from touching the bag.



It seems like cleaning the wire cage would be more work than a bowl. I have a silicone whisk that I don't use because I don't like it. I wonder if that could somehow be used.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 13, 2018)

If I had a silicone whisk, I might try that. A whisk has got to be better and hopefully faster than the massage and shake method.  

I thought about a whisk, but my only whisk is made of plated steel and rather worn. I like to stick with stainless steel or plastic utensils for soaping.


----------



## neonstudy (Apr 13, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> 1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
> 2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
> 3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
> 4. earlene - I've got to try this!
> ...


11. neonstudy - Wow HP in a bag, count me in!


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 13, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> I am concerned that there might be a bit of a difference with clipped bags, instead of air-tight. Have you tried a completely airtight setup (or do you think that your's was air tight?) I suspect there is a subtle difference ... but I'm not sure yet.



I honestly think the closure on my bag is air tight -- or close enough to air tight to not make any difference. The bags I'm using are quite tall, and I'm being careful to fold the top over itself 4-5 times before adding the clip. I think if the bag could only be rolled 1-2 times, that would be another story entirely.

Another thing that supports my opinion -- I'm adding the fragrance at the beginning before the cook. I'm pretty sure I'd smell it as the soap was cooking if there were any leaks in the closure. I don't get any whiff of scent unless I deliberately open the bag.


----------



## earlene (Apr 13, 2018)

I like the metal binder clip idea.  I even wonder if I use a shisk-a-bob skewer to suspend the binder clips over the water bath (similar to hanging curtains) if the clips would hold.  I think that they will if they are not the tiny ones and the bags aren't too heavy.  I am going to try that unless someone else has and it failed.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 13, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> I'm adding the fragrance at the beginning before the cook. I'm pretty sure I'd smell it as the soap was cooking if there were any leaks in the closure. I don't get any whiff of scent unless I deliberately open the bag.



Thanks for that feedback 

*edited to add: I'd gone to full air exclusion for this method, and I'm still thinking in that space, but I might look at this idea a bit closer and consider whether there's a significant difference between "close enough" and "completely airtight", in the context of the end results. It is an interesting thought.



earlene said:


> I like the metal binder clip idea.  I even wonder if I use a shisk-a-bob skewer to suspend the binder clips over the water bath (similar to hanging curtains) if the clips would hold.  I think that they will if they are not the tiny ones and the bags aren't too heavy.  I am going to try that unless someone else has and it failed.



Hi Earlene, I've tried clipping to a skewer and it works, as long as the skewer is not metal!
(My metal skewer carried heat to the bag from the edges of the pot, and melted the bag).

I adore the combination idea!


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 13, 2018)

A caution, that has come out of the SVHP experimental thread ...

The bags are good, because they are flexible and allow for a little expansion as the soap cooks.

When I developed the technique, I did not envisage using anything other than a bag for the SVHP process, however the ideas are progressing and I am thinking of alternate containers. This requires that the gas expansion issue be addressed, so I think I will deal with it this way:

*Safety warning: Do not use any tightly sealed container with this method.
*
Ziplock bags and soft closure plastic containers are acceptable (they can safely come open under pressure).

(Thank you to DeeAnna, for your baking soda comment! )


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 13, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> To be fair, I haven't compared my "add color to cooked soap" method with the "add color to the batter" method. Maybe both methods give that kind of look. I guess I'll have to try it and see.



Has anyone ever actually studied what happens to color during gel? Does processing soap cause changes similar to what happens when you color/pull sugar? 

This would be the perfect chance to make a large batch and split into ungelled, colorant before gel, and colorant after gel. If I have a chance I’ll see if I can give it a try next week.


----------



## SunRiseArts (Apr 14, 2018)

I am behind in the pages, so not sure if this has been asked.  How long do the soap in the bags need to be simmer for it to gel?  Does it take 1 hour?  More?


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 14, 2018)

My first batch was 90 minutes my second I think was 80 minutes. Both were in a crockpot on low, I don’t think the water had a chance to bubble. A proper boiling water will probably be quicker.


----------



## NsMar42111 (Apr 14, 2018)

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.
8. Serene-Someone save me from myself.
9. SoapAddict415- I may not get a chance to try the challenge but I'd still like to vote.
10. DeeAnna -- I need more practice with HP, so HP-in-a-bag -- here I come!
11. Redhead1226 - Ill give it a go!
12. Neonstudy
13. nsmar42111-I have an idea for a use for this....


Ok I was poo pooing doing a challenge because I don't need more soap other than my usual right now...but after reading this, I realized something-if this works, it would be PERFECT for testing all those FO 1 oz bottles I have! I do HP, and it's a pain to divide up everything, it makes a ton of dishes,  and never divides right when I make a big batch to split and test... so, 1lb of batter per baggie, multiple baggies in a crockpot, label each baggie with the scent, add entire bottle (no measuring whoo) of FO, put into 1lb loaf molds, tada! much less cleanup... I'm gonna work on this in the next few days .


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 14, 2018)

_"...How long do the soap in the bags need to be simmer for it to gel?..."_

The real answer is "it takes as long as it takes". The recipe, your technique, etc. will all affect this. SaltedFig mentioned about 30 minutes to gel. I think mine are taking more like 45-60 minutes to reach full gel. See my pics and notes in post 43. I can see that time might shorten with more practice with this method, but that's what it's taking now.

I'm keeping the temp of the water bath about 180 F (80 C). That's plenty hot enough to drive saponification.

I would worry about using a full boiling water bath (212 F, 100 C). For one, the hotter the temp, the harder it is on the fats -- heat increases the rate of oxidation of fats and thus will increase the chance of rancidity.

For another, temps at or near boiling can cause soap to expand in volume and water to turn into steam. This will cause pressure to build up in the bag. Most people want to avoid this in a "normal" soap making method and you definitely don't want this to happen when using this sous vide method.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 14, 2018)

The Sous Vide hot process method is a low heat method.

If you are using a water bath, the water surrounding the Sous Vide bags should be below boiling point.

Visually, you want to keep the surface of your water calm.

From Post #1


SaltedFig said:


> The jug and it’s bag are placed into hot water (keep it just under a simmer, if you can see bubbles but they aren’t breaking the surface, that's about perfect!).




From Post #13

The water in this photo is being heated gently, so the temperature stays below boiling point.
The easiest way to do this visually is to look at the surface of the water - it needs to be unbroken and calm.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 14, 2018)

BattleGnome said:


> I don’t think the water had a chance to bubble.



I think this is perfect!



SunRiseArts said:


> I am behind in the pages, so not sure if this has been asked.  How long do the soap in the bags need to be simmer for it to gel?  Does it take 1 hour?  More?



Mine have consistently taken about 20 to 30 minutes for my high olive recipes in the water bath and slightly longer (about 25 to 40 minutes) in a very gentle steam environment. I am getting different times for different recipes, so your recipe will make a difference to your Sous Vide time.

The change to gel is very easy to see, and I've left bags continue past the gel point without negative effect (so if you go a little over, that is ok too).


----------



## SunRiseArts (Apr 14, 2018)

Thank you all!  Thank you DeAnna for refereeing me to your post.  You are such a great teacher!

Is there any specific reason why the bags need to be sealed?  I thought of using foam coffee cups (I always use those for my lye) instead of bags, and sit them in the water bath.  I could put plastic wrap on top.

Is this acceptable?


----------



## dibbles (Apr 14, 2018)

I have been dragging my feet giving this a try, and I'm not really sure why. We are pretty much stuck at home all weekend with the snow storm, so I decided today would be the day. I've never done HP before, so I'm not sure if I have a success or a fail. It did gel in the baggies, which were in cups as shown in the first example. I only made a 1 lb. batch, and I would say it took about 30 minutes - maybe 35 - to get full gel. Soap is in the mold cooling off.


----------



## SunRiseArts (Apr 14, 2018)

dibbles is 8o degrees is Dallas ......


----------



## SunRiseArts (Apr 14, 2018)

Ok I just finished mine.  Everything went perfect, until the end when I put the FO, and forgot how quickly the FO could eat through the cups.  Amazing the cups can withstand the oil, and the cook in the crock pot, but bot the FO.  I had to work so quickly at the end.

I took pictures of everything, except of the colors mixing, because of above.  It was very interesting.  My batter looked the same as when I do HP.  So in all honesty would be easier to make HP and then divide your batter.

I do not do much HP anymore because I think it has affected the super amazing sense of smell I had.  It has diminished.

I think  also added too much color.  Been heavy on that lately.  Hopefully is all good, because this is the last batch I am making in a while.  I need to start packing to move in a couple of weeks.


----------



## NsMar42111 (Apr 14, 2018)

SunRiseArts said:


> I took pictures of everything, except of the colors mixing, because of above.  It was very interesting.  My batter looked the same as when I do HP.  So in all honesty would be easier to make HP and then divide your batter.
> 
> .


I disagree LOL....this was way easier than messing with 6 different bowls or cleaning all that extra stuff when I want to do all different scents. My receipe was way more fluid than when I normally do HP...this might be receipe dependent too. Good luck with the packing! ugh I hate that!


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 14, 2018)

Wow, that was quick SunRiseArts! I'd only just seen your post and was in the process of replying.



SunRiseArts said:


> Is there any specific reason why the bags need to be sealed?  I thought of using foam coffee cups (I always use those for my lye) instead of bags, and sit them in the water bath.  I could put plastic wrap on top.
> 
> Is this acceptable?



The SousVide Hot Process method is to cook the soap in a vacuum at low heat, to retain liquidity without additives.

I suspect that the plastic wrap over the top would not have been sufficient to maintain a vacuum.

Effectively you made ordinary HP, not SVHP (sorry Maria)



SunRiseArts said:


> Ok I just finished mine.  Everything went perfect, until the end when I put the FO, and forgot how quickly the FO could eat through the cups.  Amazing the cups can withstand the oil, and the cook in the crock pot, but bot the FO.  I had to work so quickly at the end.
> 
> I took pictures of everything, except of the colors mixing, because of above.  It was very interesting.  My batter looked the same as when I do HP.  So in all honesty would be easier to make HP and then divide your batter.
> 
> ...



The plastics used in foam cup manufacture are often more soluable than #5 plastic. Essential oils will dissolve them quite well too.

Good luck with your move Maria! I hope it goes smoothly for you


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 14, 2018)

"...Is there any specific reason why the bags need to be sealed?..."

I can think of a couple of reasons. First and probably the most important is a sealed bag eliminates the problem of evaporation. The neat part of SaltedFig's sous vide method is you can use a "normal" cold process recipe. You don't have to adjust the water-based liquids to account for evaporation, so you can use the HP process and make a smooth looking soap, minimum amount of water, and still deal with a pourable batter.

Second reason is heat transfer. A bag is thin and allows the heat from the water bath to warm the soap really efficiently. 

I'd be careful about using the foam cups -- be sure to check what they're made of. If polystyrene, they are truly not safe for lye, fragrance oils, and essential oils. The FOs and EOs will literally melt the plastic. Lye will make the plastic brittle and very easy to break. (Oops, I see you've already found this out.....)


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 14, 2018)

I forgot to add a detail about my second batch, so I'm adding this tidbit --

I'd added sodium lactate in my first batch. I did it mostly out of curiosity -- seems like a lot of people use it and I wanted to see what the fuss was all about. I didn't use sodium lactate in the second batch. I didn't notice any difference in the pour-ability of the two batches. As far as I'm concerned, using SL is kind of a non-event.

What is different is the bars from the second batch is definitely harder than the bars from my first. The bars are still not quite as hard as my usual CP bars at the same age, but pretty close.


----------



## SunRiseArts (Apr 15, 2018)

Thank you all.  Sadly, I will not have time to make another one.  So I will go ahead and post pictures here with my experiment, when the soap is ready to cut.  I took it out of the mold, but since I made it yesterday, I want to wait an extra day before cutting.

I know about plastic and FOs,  don't know what I was thinking.  I always mix my lye in those cups with no problem.  I like that they are seamless, so no risk of spilling.

Interesting process. Maybe a try it again at another time.


----------



## Primrose (Apr 16, 2018)

1. dibbles - Never thought I'd do HP. Never say never.
2. BattleGnome - Adventure!
3. SunRiseArts - ╭(◔ ◡ ◔)/
4. earlene - I've got to try this!
5. amd - looks like I'm moving back into the kitchen...
6. scard - Maybe I can use my neem oil?
7. Penelopejane - maybe a good time to use a pesky FO.
8. Serene-Someone save me from myself.
9. SoapAddict415- I may not get a chance to try the challenge but I'd still like to vote.
10. DeeAnna -- I need more practice with HP, so HP-in-a-bag -- here I come!
11. Redhead1226 - Ill give it a go!
12. Neonstudy
13. nsmar42111-I have an idea for a use for this....
14. Primrose

I wasn't going to join this one because I've not really any desire to try HP ... but I may give it a go anyway


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 16, 2018)

Third batch done last night. It gelled faster than the first two. Since I used the same basic recipe for all three, I'm chalking the difference up to operator error. I didn't fuss with batch 3 nearly much while the soap was in the hot water bath. Don't remove from the water to take pictures, ogle, smoosh, or poke -- just let it do its thing as much as possible. And use a deep enough water bath so the soap batter can stay at or below the surface of the water.

I was careful about rolling the top of the bag well so it was sealed tightly and about not opening it until after the soap had gelled. I did not notice any obvious gas buildup in the bag. Nor did I smell any hint of fragrance that would hint at gases escaping from the bag.

I tried stick blending in the bag again. I held the bell just below the surface of the soap batter, so it was submerged, but well away from the bag. It worked. It only took about 5 seconds of SB'ing to get the batter to emulsion, and I didn't SB any further once I got it to that point -- I didn't want to tempt fate. But the soap also didn't need any more mixing either.

For 500 grams of fat, the additives I experimented with were sodium lactate and yogurt  --
Batch 1: 1.5% ppo sodium lactate up front and 1 TBL yogurt after the soap gelled
Batch 2: 1 TBL yogurt after the soap gelled
Batch 3: nothing

I can't say the sodium lactate made any great difference as far as making the soap more fluid and workable while hot. The yogurt, however. Hmm. I really think a bit of yogurt makes the hot soap more plastic and workable a little longer. I don't know if it has to be yogurt; I know some people use nonfat dry milk powder to add fluidity to rebatched soap. My guess is it's the sugars that are making the difference.

I thought the molded-up soap with yogurt was easier to tidy up and smooth. The no-yogurt batch quickly formed dry bits here and there that didn't want to combine smoothly with the rest of the soap. I saw more defects around the outside of the loaf and where different layers of the soap met. It looked like the soap was a little too stiff to adhere to itself easily and to flow and settle nicely into the mold. This is not a night-and-day difference, but I think the subtle benefits of yogurt are worth the trouble.


----------



## NsMar42111 (Apr 16, 2018)

DeeAnna-great! It worked better! 

So I'm not confused, you added your oils/butters to the bag, then added your lye water , then stickblended, then added your FO, then sealed it up and cooked it? Do I have that right? Or did you add FO before stickblending the whole thing? 

How long did yours take to gel? I do think not lifting the lid makes a difference . 

Sodium lactate for me only makes the bars harder later and I've been leaving it out because I don't see a huge difference with my current recipe....yogurt does indeed seem to make everything more fluid but I'm shy of DOS issues right now so I stopped using that too LOL. Glad to hear you had sucess with it! The sugars in the yogurt maybe held the heat a little better and that's why the soap was more uniform?


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 16, 2018)

Here's a step-by-step, NsMar --

I found a "batter bowl" with steep sides that supported the bag well and put the bag in this bowl. I put bowl and bag on my scale, and measured my room temp fat, FO, and EDTA directly into the bag. I then took the bag out of the bowl and floated the bag directly in the hot water bath to let the fat mostly melt.

While that was going on, I got my alkali ready in a separate containers (water and KOH in one and 50% NaOH masterbatch solution in another).

When the lye solutions were ready and the fat was mostly melted, I put the bag back into its bowl, poured the lye solutions into the bag, and stick blended the batter to emulsion.

The first time (Batch 1), I tried to SB when the bag was floating it the water bath. I really don't recommend that! The bag is too "squirrely" in the hot water and much more likely to get caught in the blender. When in a bowl (Batch 3), the bag conforms to the bowl so the bag is more open and safer to stick blend in.​
I think the batter for Batch 3 was in full gel in 15-20 minutes. Definitely a LOT shorter time than the 45-60 minutes as with the other batches. That was nice!

_"...The sugars in the yogurt maybe held the heat a little better and that's why the soap was more uniform?..."_

I suspect what is happening is the milk sugar (lactose) in the yogurt is reacting with the soap and any residual alkali to create a small amount of fatty acids -- in effect raising the superfat a bit, but with fatty acids, not fat. It's the fatty acids that are modifying the texture and making the hot soap easier to work with.

Part of the reasoning behind my idea is this -- Kevin Dunn did some experiments that showed using full milk as a replacement for water would increase the superfat by (speaking from memory here) around 4-6%. About 1-2% of this superfat increase is due to the milk fat according to my calculations, so the rest of the increase is coming from the milk sugar. A mere tablespoon of yogurt ppo won't change things nearly that much, but it is apparently enough to make a useful difference.

IMO, it may not be the yogurt specifically that is the key -- any source of dairy might work just as well. But this is just my guess. I don't know how a tablespoon ppo of yogurt compares to using the same amount of other dairy or extra fat or even glycerin. Maybe any of these would help?


----------



## SunRiseArts (Apr 18, 2018)

Well,  here is my failed experiment (in pictures), since I will not be able to enter.  At least the soap is usable, and is smells so good.  I used rock candy and sour watermelon FOs.


----------



## Serene (Apr 20, 2018)

I had a soaping first two days ago.   I think its decent enough for an entry on the first try.   Planets aligned that day?  Seriously this never EVER happens.  Water got into one of my bags so it was not without problems but it worked out in the end.


----------



## Primrose (Apr 22, 2018)

My first attempt was a disaster when my bags totally melted  going to have another go with oven bags this time


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 22, 2018)

That's terrible Primrose  ... what bags were they, and how hot was the water? (Sorry to ask - were they in jugs?) ... I know you must be upset (I would be!), but I would like to know where the failure is (bag, heat, etc.) to refine the process a little bit, if you're up for describing these things.

Good luck with the oven bags (just check they aren't the perforated sort for roasting )


----------



## Primrose (Apr 22, 2018)

Sure SaltedFig, they were snap lock bags from Aldi, so clearly not heat proof. They were inside plastic jugs in a pot of water at 80 degrees C with a tea towel on top. 

My.second attempt didn't go well either  the oven bags were OK, but I cooked it exactly the same as above for about 30 minutes but my soap ended up awful colours, chunky and with some sort of liquid separated out. I'll try to post a pic


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 22, 2018)

That sounds like the plastic couldn't withstand the lye, at a guess, as the temperature isn't that different to what you would get if you microwaved something in the bag (I am guessing they wouldn't make the food bag unable to be put in the microwave?). Your experience has me completely flummoxed, I haven't been able to break the process yet (but there's obviously a way!) ... I will wait for the pictures.

I've got some oven bags ... I'll give one a try tomorrow (is there any additives that you think might make a difference?)


----------



## Primrose (Apr 22, 2018)

I was just going to ask - maybe its my goat milk? It would at least explain the awful colours, but I can't understand why it went chunky and separated. The FO is a well behaving one. In fact the excess batter has made some lovely CP individual soaps. I'll pop the photos up tomorrow when I'm in the office, my mobile isn't cooperating


----------



## Primrose (Apr 22, 2018)

Ok here's the photos from my two failed attempts. I took more photos of the first attempt but it was much the same the second time around minus the bags melting.

This was the first attempt after the bags melted but this is much the same consistency I got on the second attempt also with the oven bags, a chunky mess with liquid separated






The second attempt ... this was after I'd even mixed it up a bit trying to incorporate it together - may have come together with a stick blender but I didn't have time as it was hardening very fast. You can see the excess liquid






To be fair I've never done any sort of HP before so maybe I stuffed something up. This was my setup with pot of water, jugs and tea towels


----------



## BattleGnome (Apr 22, 2018)

Do you know how hot your water got? Looks kinda like heat separation to me. Is your recipe/FO a heater?


----------



## Primrose (Apr 22, 2018)

The water stayed at 80 degrees C. The surface stayed calm and there were bubbles at the bottom of the pot but not rising.

The first recipe was 25% lard, 25% tallow, 25% olive oil, 20% coconut and 5% castor oil.
Second recipe was the same but 50% lard, no tallow

I do use goats milk in place of water.

The FO was ACS ambered sandalwood which behaves nicely - no acceleration. I had some excess batter that I didn't cook and poured into the individual round moulds (thumbnail above) and they are lovely

I cant actually smell the FO in the cooked stuff ... though the CP ones are gorgeous


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 22, 2018)

Wow. So sorry the second batch failed Primrose 

Primrose, your setup and bags look fine from the photo's, and the oils & fats in the recipe don't look like they could have triggered this.

So the only things that I think it could be is the batch overheated (as BattleGnome suggested). It could be the fragrance doesn't work in HP (this process is designed to have essential oils added after the cook, so maybe it could be added at the end as well?), or the goats milk (maybe it needs a lower temperature?).

If you were interested in finding the cause, it is possible, but it would require 3 small test bags:
1/ Water and fragrance (to check if the fragrance is a problem)
2/ Goats milk and no fragrance (to check if the milk is the cause)
3/ Water and no fragrance (to rule out every other part of your method and ingredients)
Test 1 and 3 could be made from the same batch (with only one having fragrance added)

I can try a milk test (I don't think anyone has used this method with milk before yourself?) if you like?
I don't have any goat's milk, so I could try and make it as close as I can with cow's milk by using some yogurt whey to imitate the extra whey proteins in goats milk and see if I can get mine to do the same thing.
Let me know the superfat and lye concentration, if you would like me to do this (I've got a couple of other tests to run, so it's no trouble )

*edited to put formatting back to how I typed it originally


----------



## Primrose (Apr 22, 2018)

Superfat was standard at 5% and lye concentration at about 30%

I will have a go at the test but probably wont have time until the weekend, so if you'd like to try and test it as well please go ahead  

Oh I forgot there was also TD and mica


----------



## Serene (Apr 23, 2018)

Is there an entry thread?  Did I miss it?


----------



## SunRiseArts (Apr 23, 2018)

This is the entry thread Serene!  Just add your name.


----------



## Serene (Apr 23, 2018)

I meant for the final soap, etc  I am already in...I think?? lol


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 23, 2018)

Oh my goodness! Sorry everyone, I went back and checked and I'm late with the challenge entry thread (I had the close date of April 25 in mind) 

So, please enter a description and photo each of your soap and your process in this thread:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...vide-soap-swirl-challenge-entry-thread.69969/

There is still a few days left in the challenge, so there's still time to make the soap (the process takes under 1 hour!).

All comments on the photo's and the process can go in this thread. Thank you all for taking part!

Good luck


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 23, 2018)

Here are my two honorable mention soaps for this challenge. See posts 43 and 45 for details about how I made them.

Batch 1 -- It's okay, but not especially eye catching. 





And Batch 3 -- The color combination just didn't wow me. But it's a nice try.


----------



## earlene (Apr 24, 2018)

I finally did my challenge soap.  For some reason, I thought I had more time and kept putting it off.  In fact, since we are leaving for Chicago in the morning, I thought I'd wait until I got back.  But when I saw the Entry thread, I realized there wouldn't be enough time if I didn't do it tonight (last night, now.)  So I only did one attempt.

Things were going just fine until I accidentally added the FO before separating out for coloring, as I had planned to do before adding the FO.  Instantly I had uncolored almost solid soap.  So I broke it up, put equal amounts in the baggies, tossed in the colorants that I had pre-mixed with water to make up the difference from the lye solution, let air out of the baggies and popped them in the simmering water.  My soap looked at lot like Primrose's pictured above, but not until I removed each baggie in turn & did my best to soften and smooth out the soap 'batter' & mix in the colors better.  I also added a bit of yogurt & SL trying to make it more pourable.  I did manage to get a picture or three of the process, but right at the end one of the baggies started to leak.  So I quickly got them all out and did my planned on ITP swirl to pour into individual molds.  All this while trying to get laundry done as well!

They are still pretty warm, but Kevlar gloves sure prevented hot-soap-touching pain as I tried to smooth the tops before covering with plastic wrap.  I sure hope the colors brighten back up again.  They started out really bright, but by the time they were ready to pour, they looked really rather muddy.  These are definitely going to be some ugly soaps!  If they aren't a total fail, I'll go ahead and enter them when I get back from Chicago on Wednesday night.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 24, 2018)

Oh, Earlene and Primrose -- it sounds like you both had tough times with your batches. It's frustrating when that happens!


----------



## penelopejane (Apr 24, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> Here are my two honorable mention soaps for this challenge. See posts 43 and 45 for details about how I made them.
> 
> Batch 1 -- It's okay, but not especially eye catching.



Good job on all of your soap using this method. I really like the first subdued one too. They are much nicer than regular HP I think.


----------



## amd (Apr 24, 2018)

Oh @DeeAnna ! I would have taken both of those soaps as good entries! I love the second one. LOVE.IT.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 24, 2018)

In looking at the contest entries and the pics here, I am impressed how everyone's bars are looking so smooth and dense. Not quite CP smooth and dense, but real close. The bars are decently firm right out of the mold and they aren't getting that sway-backed look that some HP soap gets as it cures. I especially like that you can use higher lye concentrations (less water) just like you'd use for CP, and get really good results. 

Thanks, SaltedFig, for encouraging us to try this -- it's been a treat!


----------



## Pilar (Apr 25, 2018)

I love the idea. I have only used this method with soap clippings.
It is also interesting to use Sous Vide to make lard https://www.chefsteps.com/forum/posts/sousvide-lard-rendering


----------



## NsMar42111 (Apr 26, 2018)

Ok, did another round of this. I'm using the 1oz FOs I've built up because this is PERFECT for making multiple 1lb batches at the same time without a billion scoops.

Edit: Forgot to say, I'm using the crockpot for my hot water. I fill it halfway with tap water, room temp, turn it on high and let it heat up (with the lid on) while I'm measuring out the oils and melting the oils. By the time I'm done mixing everything, there is condensation on the lid -I haven't checked the temperature but I'm having no (almost) issues getting to saponification.

This time I added the FO to the bag with the emulsified batter. My recipe moves quicker than I realized because by the 7th baggie it was thick pudding again. I pushed out most of the air and sealed everything. Put all the baggies into hot water in the crockpot, covered them with a towel actually in the water figuring the wet towel would keep the heat at the top too. Then I covered with a lid and cooked for 35 minutes.Oh, I ended up opening a couple bags and letting them sink down lower to help push out the excess air, I misjudged how much I removed the first place. They were not vacuum seal perfect but the bag was flat above the batter. 

I only had one bag failure, this time I used "freezer" bags not "storage" bags. FREEZER bags are the way to go! The failure may be due to splashing the FO on the side of the bag, I tried to pour right in the middle of the batter but that particular one I missed. The failure wasn't until I was pouring the bags into molds , was a melt through near the top-no soap lost.  Once everything cooked, I poured the batter into the molds. The non contest ones I sprinkled mica on top and swirled with a skewer just the tops-if I was doing this for any kind of production I'd mix the mica with glycerin. The contest one I colored a seperate baggie of batter by adding mica and squishing the bag around-I recommend coloring before you cook for even results.

None of the bags had any kind of volcanoing or air building up in the bags-a definite plus compared to normal! Usually when I make this receipe I have at least one, if not two or three, major stir downs (although with plastic wrap as a top that's been just one stir down lately and its at the end). No signs of any volcanoing in the bags! If the crockpot liner bags would work for this, it would be perfect-that'll be a next experiement.

For making 1lb test batches, this is great! I can see the FO's that cause acceleration issues (a beachy one) as soon as I pour the FO into the baggie-the batter gets clumpy fast. I did not notice any loss of FO in the sealed bags and could only smell the one I spilled, so I feel confident adding FO to the batter before the cook.  I also noticed that when I was taking part of the batter out, the batter started to stiffen (after the cook)-I put the baggie back into the hot water and it loosened right up! If you wanted to do a bunch of swirling, it would save have a ton of dirty cups to clean by putting each color into its own baggie.

Definietly wear gloves! My rubber palmed/fingered garden gloves are perfect!

I did have a slow bag, cucumber melon , that I had to cook a few minutes longer than the others. This fragrance always gives me issues (usually seperation) so I wasn't surprised. It did finally turn to vaseline.

14 scents tested in 2 batches with minimual mess....I'm happy! I'll do my contest entry after I cut tomorrow.


----------



## earlene (Apr 26, 2018)

*DeeAnna*, I am so impressed with how gorgeous your soaps look.  I am sure all the practice learning to perfect the method, coupled with your own built-in artistry played a role in the results you got.

*SaltedFig*, thank you for the challenge.  I will definitely try this again, but next time I will use my canning jars.  I really should have done so in the first place.  I thought when my test of the process using only water in the first bag was sufficient to indicate the baggies would not spring a leak, but I didn't take into account that soap batter is not equal to plain water inside a baggie.  So I got a little leak in one of the baggies, maybe two.  So next time, I'll make sure they are the stronger freezer baggies (I forgot to double check if they were or not) AND I'll put each one inside a canning jar as double insurance against bag failure.

I was wondering if this would be too problematic for a fast moving recipe.  Has anyone tried it with a really fast moving recipe?

*Serene*, are you going to post an entry in the entry thread?  I assumed that is why you asked about if it was up yet.

*Pilar*, that's an interesting link.

*SaltedFig*, since the entry threat was up a little late, will you extend it a day or so for additional entries?  Just wondering, since I know that a couple people mentioned their entries, but I don't see them up yet.  Just curious; no pressure.


----------



## NsMar42111 (Apr 26, 2018)

Okay, I"m at the computer for a few so a few pictures incoming. Process pictures are in the challenge entry thread .
I love the "mess" left...instead of 7 measuring cups to clean I had 7 baggies to toss! Looking at it, I could probably get a bar out of whats left in the baggies total...putting gloves on both hands would've helped me get more out of the baggies. I've learned not to fret over a few ounces of soap because then I mess up the big batch! But it's something to keep in mind.

Picture of the molds partially filled-you can see how liquidy the batter is, and how it holds the heat well-they are in the vaseline stage longer in the molds. I'm not sure if that's due to less water evaporating out or that I'm not pulling batter out and mixing fo's in after cook.  I ran out of 1lb molds so had to use a 2lb, hence the propping (and hence the curved bottoms LOL). Note to self, get more 1 lb molds. To keep my scents straight, I lined them up according to the list I wrote on my recipe.

Next two pictures are of the final results, the swirling is all on top so nothing to see head on LOL. I do find these are stickier than my normal method, but again, I think that's due to the water not evaporating during cook/scenting. Most of the scents were Candle Science with one Rustic Escentuals thrown in. Don't read the lids, they got mixed up when I was cleaning up .

Next picture shows a lonely scented baggie after vaseline stage. Water is white due to spilled batter...Next is me mixing the mica after cook-highly recommend doing it before cook! HOT HOT!

These were just testers, but I partially colored anyway- one so I can tell them apart and two so I can see if the colors morph and how bad the batter will discolor. Blueberry parafait is going to be another brown soap....lots of vanilla!


----------



## earlene (Apr 26, 2018)

Well, I think I forgot to add the EDTA to my soap, and am not impressed with the fragrance either.  I wasn't thrilled with how my colors turned out, so thought I'd cut into some of the soaps and see how the swirl looks on the inside.  Again, not impressed.  The color intensity of one of the colors is as it should be, but the rest are disappointing with one being down-right rejection-worthy.  For the most part, the soap is really smooth on the inside, which is good to know, but I may just re-batch these (saving one for further eval down the road), and add in the EDTA.

Not sure if I want to do a whole re-batch in the Sous Vide method, or as a soap confetti or what.  In any case, I'm planning a re-batch.


----------



## Serene (Apr 26, 2018)

Earlene, same thing with me and the FO I used.  Dragon Moon from Nurture.  I am seriously considering putting the soap outside.  Hate it.    The soap itself looks like it needs to be washed.  It has this dirty look to it.  As if it needs washing.   I guess its because I am used to my creamy look with cold process.   I did mix the color before the cook because if I had to add the color and Fragrance at the same time, I would have given up.  It was a paste by the time I beat it into submission, even though I put it in there while it was piping hot. It just dried so quick!!


----------



## scard (Apr 26, 2018)

Is it too late to post entries? I lost track of time!


----------



## artemis (Apr 26, 2018)

Serene said:


> Dragon Moon from Nurture.  I am seriously considering putting the soap outside.  Hate it.



But what does it smell like?!?


----------



## earlene (Apr 26, 2018)

Serene said:


> Earlene, same thing with me and the FO I used.  Dragon Moon from Nurture.  I am seriously considering putting the soap outside.  Hate it.    The soap itself looks like it needs to be washed.  It has this dirty look to it.  As if it needs washing.   I guess its because I am used to my creamy look with cold process.   I did mix the color before the cook because if I had to add the color and Fragrance at the same time, I would have given up.  It was a paste by the time I beat it into submission, even though I put it in there while it was piping hot. It just dried so quick!!




But they sure do look gorgeous in the entry photos, *Serene*.  

I don't know what it is about me and fragrances.  I'll try one that I think is great out of bottle, and once it's in soap, I just don't like it at all.  Not always, but it seems to happen more often than I would expect.


----------



## Serene (Apr 27, 2018)

Artemis,

Its smells like potpourri in a musty basement.   Its not terrible, I just cant take too much of it.       I bought 2 oz to test since the reviews were great.  I dont know what those 14 reviewers are smelling but I dont get it. lol


----------



## Serene (Apr 27, 2018)

Mine may be late too.   I had a friend's Mom in the hospital so took a trip and totally forgot to post before I left.   If late please delete.  Not fair to the others that were on time.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 27, 2018)

Thank you all for participating in this month's SMF soap challenge!

Entries are now closed and voting PM's will be sent to the signee's shortly


----------



## Serene (Apr 27, 2018)

Lin19687,
 
Replying here because I dont want to comment on the entry thread.

 I think the fluidity of my swirls may have to do with the fact that one of my bags, the white, had a hole in it and water got into it.  Enough water that the soap was a lot more fluid than the other two and I had to drain it and change the bag.  I did remembered, from watching a video, to keep the soap warm and covered.  Its one of those fluid hot process videos that have been circulating around the forum. I wanted to get the blue and brown  somewhat the same consistency so I added a bit of Glycerin with the fo.  I then moved all 3 bags into the hot water in the crock pot, and with rubber gloves on massaged the bags to mix the glycerin, and fo.    (Crock pot was already off but the water was hot)  

I know I said I would never again soap in a bag but curiosity is now poking at me.   Once I get a bit of time I may just have to pull the crock pot and the bags out again.  I have plenty of oven bags and freezer bags left.  I I do another experiment I will update.


----------



## Lin19687 (Apr 27, 2018)

hmmm.  Making me want to play with the crock pot again !


----------



## Serene (Apr 27, 2018)

*"Serene*, are you going to post an entry in the entry thread?  I assumed that is why you asked about if it was up yet."

Sorry, Earlene.  Did not see this till now.  I was out of town due to an emergency.    Thanks for the reminder.


----------



## dibbles (Apr 27, 2018)

Serene said:


> Artemis,
> 
> Its smells like potpourri in a musty basement.   Its not terrible, I just cant take too much of it.       I bought 2 oz to test since the reviews were great.  I dont know what those 14 reviewers are smelling but I dont get it. lol



Dragon Moon...I liked this better than you did, but this got me wondering how it is now, 5-6 months later. It has definitely lost the earthyness it had and is now a light floral. I’d say maybe jasmine/lily. I first described it as a ‘purple’ smell, and I still get that - if purple was a scent. It’s not grape or candy, not too sweet, and the floral notes aren’t heavy. It’s fine, but I won’t order it again. There are too many that are better. If you keep a bar, I’d be curious as to what you think of it later. Noses are so different, but now I’m not getting any of the musty - which my nose thought was earthy.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 27, 2018)

PM's have all been sent.

Voting will remain open until the end of April and the winner will be announced after voting is closed.

Thank you all so much for being part of this months challenge


----------



## redhead1226 (Apr 27, 2018)

I was unable to make my soap - I threw my back out ( Aging isn't kind)  But everyone did an awesome job and thought this was a very interesting challenge. My password to vote is not working ugggggg


----------



## dibbles (Apr 27, 2018)

Salted Fig, I just want to say you did a great job hosting your first challenge. Coming up with a completely new process for soap making - wow! I can't say this will make a HP convert out of me, but at least I know I have an option for a couple of FOs that are beyond naughty. Thank you for all the time and effort you put into this.


----------



## SaltedFig (Apr 30, 2018)

Thank you to everyone who took part in the Sous Vide HP swirl challenge!

I am pleased to announce that the soaps voted as the top 3 were made by ...

Serene , DeeAnna and Earlene !

Congratulations!


----------



## SunRiseArts (May 1, 2018)

whoa, all the soaps were gorgeous.  So hard to pick! Congratulations to everyone, and specially to the winners.

And thank you Salted Fig for hosting!


----------



## penelopejane (May 1, 2018)

Congratulations Serene, DeeAnna and Earlene for your great soaps in this technical challenge. 
Congratulations to everyone who entered and those who tried but just didn’t put an entry in.  Excellent work by you all.


----------



## NsMar42111 (May 10, 2018)

*bump*
A thought....since this was an experiement, lets try to remember to post pictures in a couple months to see if they cure any differently than other methods? I'm thinking specifically of warping ...


----------



## DeeAnna (May 10, 2018)

I've been showering with a bar from my first batch. It's just under 4 weeks old. It was the batch with sodium lactate and yogurt. The soap is lathering nicely -- no complaints. But I haven't compared the lather to my other 2 sous vide batches, nor to CP soap made with the same fat blend. I'll get around to that one of these days. 

The soap from Batch 1 still yields very, very slightly to firm finger pressure. By saying this, I don't mean I can actually dent the soap; it's just ... springy. The other two batches (Batch 2 w yogurt only and Batch 3 w no SL, no yogurt) have even less spring, but still a tiny bit. By contrast, a CP bar about the same age is rock hard -- utterly no spring at all. All 4 batches were made at 33% lye concentration and the same fat blend.

I am not seeing any swayback tops, warping, or other signs of obvious shrinkage in all of the sous vide batches.


----------



## BattleGnome (May 11, 2018)

I just packed some from each of my batches for mother’s day. Scents have remained true and there’s no signs of warping or other issues. I’ll try to remember to grab a bar from one of my batches the next time I need a new bar for the shower


----------



## NsMar42111 (May 11, 2018)

Just remember to check mine, no warping at all, no scent issues or unexpected discolor. I had to squeeeeeeze but I do see a bit of a squish factor like DeeAnna said, but nothing that would bother me. I think by the 2 month mark it'll be like my other bars. This may be due to me using my HP recipe which was adjusted for water lost during cook-I could probably reduce the water down a few percents. I'l try that my next round of testing..would save distilled water too!


----------

