# Vegan Palm Free Soap



## Dean (Dec 20, 2018)

Post your favorite vegan and palm-free recipe.  Mine is here.


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 20, 2018)

There are quite a few on the forum that have been shared.  There's also a couple recent topics on it.


----------



## cmzaha (Dec 20, 2018)

I do not make such. Palm for me in vegan soap. Lard and tallow in my non-vegan


----------



## dixiedragon (Dec 20, 2018)

50% shea
5% castor
20% coconut
25% sunflower
2% superfat
Let this age at least 8 weeks.

Dean, is there a reason you chose sweet almond at 40%? I want to try a high SW recipe but I think I'd divide the 40% between olive, rice bran and sunflower.


----------



## Dean (Dec 20, 2018)

I use almond because it rated higher than the other oleic oils on an online lather test.   I'm sure any high oleic will do tho.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Dec 20, 2018)

I think I shall dub myself the queen of “How many different oils can I get into a batch of soap”. Only because I spend hours on soap Calc investigating the different properties of oils and these are the ones I’ve decided I like 
I don’t use nut oils because my son has a nut allergy.
Soy wax: 20%
OO: 20%
Coconut oil: 15%
Apricot Kernel oil: 15%
Babassu oil: 10%
Castor oil: 10%
Shea butter: 10%
Super fat 5%


----------



## emi (Dec 20, 2018)

Haha me too! I spend hours on calc formulating recipes. It's actually pretty tricky without palm and animal fats which actually forced me to learn a lot of the properties of oils and their acids. This one of  favorite so far. Love the lather of it. SF 5%.



In the past on this forum I got a snooty unhelpful reply to me simply asking for a sub for animal fat/palm. Puh-leeeeese.


----------



## Dean (Dec 20, 2018)

KiwiMoose said:


> I think I shall dub myself the queen of “How many different oils can I get into a batch of soap”. Only because I spend hours on soap Calc investigating the different properties of oils and these are the ones I’ve decided I like
> I don’t use nut oils because my son has a nut allergy.
> Soy wax: 20%
> OO: 20%
> ...



Princess Poly-oil


----------



## Deadgroovy (Dec 20, 2018)

Does anyone here that sells soap see any advantage in going palm free? Do you get people asking for palm free soap?
All my soaps contain palm oil and am thinking of trying shea butter as a replacement. I need to decide whether or not to go palm free before I submit for cosmetic testing


----------



## emi (Dec 20, 2018)

I don't sell soap but I if I were to buy it I'd avoid palm oil and I don't make soap with it either. This is one of the many articles online about it.
https://www.ecowatch.com/why-is-palm-oil-so-bad-1881907014.html
It became such an issue there are certification organizations now for "sustainably sourced" palm oil, here's another article and video about that.
https://greenpalm.org/about-palm-oil/sustainable-palm-oil
So if I had to use palm oil or palm kernel oil, I'd use the certified kind, but I'd just rather not deal with it all (in food too, but MUCH harder to avoid) and promote all the other oils and butters we can use. That's just my 2 cents.

*That's actually the only reason I even started making soap to begin with. I started to realize that so much soap out there has palm oil and animal fats and was hard to avoid, and the boutique-y one's that advertised soap without palm/animal oils tended to be so expensive. I started with boring non-colored, just lavender bars purely for personal use. But now I'm having all kinds of fun with it and giving them away as gifts!

*And for subs, palm has palmitic and oleic acids. Oleic is easy to get in other common oils. But palmitic was harder to find other than animal fats. Palm and animal fats seem to have similar acid content. The oil I found that's relatively common with some palmitic and oleic was cocoa butter. Still not as high as palm though. I wouldn't use it necessarily as a direct substitute for palm in a recipe, but I use it to up the palmitic acid in a recipe. I've learned that too much cocoa butter can make a brittle bar. There's some bizarre ones I've never used like Japan wax and Mafura butter that have higher palmitic acid levels. I'm a newbie so maybe someone else can chime in on my logic of acid content for palm sub?


----------



## Dean (Dec 20, 2018)

Deadgroovy said:


> Does anyone here that sells soap see any advantage in going palm free? Do you get people asking for palm free soap?
> All my soaps contain palm oil and am thinking of trying shea butter as a replacement. I need to decide whether or not to go palm free before I submit for cosmetic testing



I don't sell but a seller recently posted that she was asked only once by a customer about palm content.  Maybe she'll chime in.



emi said:


> *That's actually the only reason I even started making soap to begin with. I started to realize that so much soap out there has palm oil and animal fats and was hard to avoid, and the boutique-y one's that advertised soap without palm/animal oils tended to be so expensive. I started with boring non-colored, just lavender bars purely for personal use. But now I'm having all kinds of fun with it and giving them away as gifts!
> 
> *And for subs, palm has palmitic and oleic acids. Oleic is easy to get in other common oils. But palmitic was harder to find other than animal fats. Palm and animal fats seem to have similar acid content. The oil I found that's relatively common with some palmitic and oleic was cocoa butter. Still not as high as palm though. I wouldn't use it necessarily as a direct substitute for palm in a recipe, but I use it to up the palmitic acid in a recipe. I've learned that too much cocoa butter can make a brittle bar. There's some bizarre ones I've never used like Japan wax and Mafura butter that have higher palmitic acid levels. I'm a newbie so maybe someone else can chime in on my logic of acid content for palm sub?



I started soaping too because I couldn't find vegan palm-free soap at the store.


----------



## penelopejane (Dec 20, 2018)

emi said:


> Haha me too! I spend hours on calc formulating recipes. It's actually pretty tricky without palm and animal fats which actually forced me to learn a lot of the properties of oils and their acids. This one of  favorite so far. Love the lather of it. SF 5%.
> View attachment 34388
> 
> In the past on this forum I got a snooty unhelpful reply to me simply asking for a sub for animal fat/palm. Puh-leeeeese.



Try this recipe for a body soap. Search in the forum for shampoo bar comments before you think of using on your hair but it’s great on your skin:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/

I don’t use oils at <5% (except castor oil) as I can’t tell the difference. Try 10% minimum. Castor I use at 5%. Too much castor makes a sticky bar.

Olive oil doesn’t rate well on the soap calcs oil qualities so formulating recipes relying on soap calc oil qualities can be wildly misleading. It makes a hard bar.

I mostly make vegan, palm free soap. I have one honey soap that breaks that rule.


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 21, 2018)

The recipe above makes a lovely soap.   I do sell and have never had anyone question the use of palm and only two have questioned lard.  I’ve been selling for 7 years.


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 21, 2018)

Dean, can you post the recipe here?

I have an ad-blocker setup that send soapee into a continuous (unresolved) loading loop .

I tend to use cocoa butter for the the stearic/palmitic ... it's not perfect, but I rather like the scent


----------



## Dean (Dec 21, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Dean, can you post the recipe here?
> 
> I have an ad-blocker setup that send soapee into a continuous (unresolved) loading loop .
> 
> I tend to use cocoa butter for the the stearic/palmitic ... it's not perfect, but I rather like the scent



Hi Fig.

I get the loop at work.  Now I kno y.

Its a soy wax recipie.  Do u still want it reposted?


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 21, 2018)

Nah ... I used an alternate browser (no blockers) to go peak 

(Maybe other folk might )


----------



## Jenn (Dec 28, 2018)

Deadgroovy said:


> Does anyone here that sells soap see any advantage in going palm free? Do you get people asking for palm free soap?
> All my soaps contain palm oil and am thinking of trying shea butter as a replacement. I need to decide whether or not to go palm free before I submit for cosmetic testing


I asked soapers at a couple shows and thdy said that they have a lot of rewuest for palm free even though there palm is ethically sourced


----------



## cmzaha (Dec 28, 2018)

emi said:


> Haha me too! I spend hours on calc formulating recipes. It's actually pretty tricky without palm and animal fats which actually forced me to learn a lot of the properties of oils and their acids. This one of  favorite so far. Love the lather of it. SF 5%.
> View attachment 34388
> 
> In the past on this forum I got a snooty unhelpful reply to me simply asking for a sub for animal fat/palm. Puh-leeeeese.


I doubt it was snooty, but merely the opinion of the person that answered. We all have different opinions and not always are our answers appreciated. I use palm, lard, tallow, camel fat, chicken fat, basically any fat I can get my hands on and will never apologize for my decisions.

I do sell and I can count on one hand how many times I am asked about palm. If a person does not want animal fat soap I have vegan soap to offer, made with palm. I simply cannot come up with a soap with the qualities I want without using palm or hard butters, such as kokum, illipe, coco butter etc and they are just to expensive to use when selling soap.

While your recipe will be a very nice soap it does not have the longevity that my customers expect. You can also achieve the same feel in a soap without so many different oils, which makes a big difference if selling


----------



## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

Sustainable palm is really not that sustainable.  https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/sustainable-palm-oil-no-not-really/

Interestingly palm oil production doesn't just create green house gasses that causes climate change that is having catostrophic effects on all life forms including humans, destroy habitats, endanger animal species but it also “leads to increased landlessness for poorer villagers and greater inequality between rich and poor; it brings low-paid, insecure jobs with inadequate health and safety provision.”

Check out this video.


----------



## cmzaha (Dec 28, 2018)

Hopefully I made them smaller. I really do not have a photo editor on the computer at moms


----------



## Misschief (Dec 28, 2018)

deleted


----------



## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

cmzaha said:


> I simply cannot come up with a soap with the qualities I want without using palm or hard butters, such as kokum, illipe, coco butter etc and they are just to expensive to use when selling soap.



Hi Carolyn,

I hope ur enlarged emojis weren’t directed at me as I was responding to Jenn’s post.

Also, I created this thread specifically for those of us that want to share info about vegan palm free soap.  If that’s not ur thing, I understand but I don't think its necessary that that the thread be used promote animal and palm products.  Perhaps you can create an animal/palm thread for that?  If you do, Ill certainly respect the space.

You once generously sent me a bar of your soap to try.  I would like to return the favor.  Im making a batch of soy wax soap today that will be ready to share after curing.  Soy wax is an inexpensive alternative to palm that creates a hard and long-lasting bar.  Alternatively, I can send you some soy wax to test.  Please msg me ur adrs if u are interested.

Happy new year!


----------



## penelopejane (Dec 28, 2018)

Dean said:


> Sustainable palm is really not that sustainable.  https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/sustainable-palm-oil-no-not-really/
> 
> Interestingly palm oil production doesn't just create green house gasses that causes climate change that is having catostrophic effects on all life forms including humans, destroy habitats, endanger animal species but it also “leads to increased landlessness for poorer villagers and greater inequality between rich and poor; it brings low-paid, insecure jobs with inadequate health and safety provision.”
> 
> Check out this video.



As the market changes so will the product change.
I don’t think it will be led by soapers but by soap users.

The best you can do now is perfect your palm free, vegan recipes and wait for the ground swell.
Many Australians now actively look for palm free, vegan soap.
That demand may eventually spread to the US.

Just make sure your soy wax is non-GMO and advertised as such or you will run headlong into another wall of resistance.


----------



## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> As the market changes so will the product change.
> I don’t think it will be led by soapers but by soap users.
> 
> The best you can do now is perfect your palm free, vegan recipes and wait for the ground swell.
> ...



I do think Americans will eventually become aware of the palm issue.  Were still coming up to speed on single use plastics. 
@SaltedFig previously brought GMO soy to our attention.  Great to kno non-GMO SW may be avail.  Thx Pen!


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 28, 2018)

@Dean - If you look for certified organic, then by default you are buying GMO free (100% organic or raw products - manufactured products are a slightly different thing *see below) 

(When it's certified organic, it is registered with a certification body and has a certification number, which will be clearly displayed on the label of the product. )

Below
https://gmo-awareness.com/2011/05/05/is-organic-always-gmo-free/


----------



## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> @Dean - If you look for certified organic, then by default you are buying GMO free (for raw products - manufactured products are a slightly different thing *see below)
> 
> (When it's certified organic, it is registered with a certification body and has a certification number, which will be clearly displayed on the label of the product. )
> 
> ...



I just discovered that two minutes ago!


----------



## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

Here it is.


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 28, 2018)

I've added the detail that it is for 100% certified organic (that's when it is GMO free).

I see that you also have certification for GMO free - I'm not familiar with that individual certification, but that looks like that might be useful for you


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 28, 2018)

Dean said:


> Here it is.  That puts the soy wax/GMO issue to rest.



Sorry, but that reseller has used the word organic, however there is no certification number (look for that, it's a way of telling the difference between advertising and certified organic produce).

The manufacturer's website (I think I've given you the link before) is more open about their product (so it's not the manufacturer that is advertising in this way).

That product is NOT organic (actually, now that I have had coffee, you will need to use the GMO certification to get GMO-free soy wax, because the hydrogenation process precludes it from being certified organic ... you could use organic certification for original oils and fats only).


----------



## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Sorry, but that reseller has used the word organic, however there is no certification number (look for that, it's a way of telling the difference between advertising and certified organic produce).
> 
> The manufacturer's website (I think I've given you the link before) is more open about their product (so it's not the manufacturer that is advertising in this way).
> 
> That product is NOT organic (actually, now that I have had coffee, you will need to use the GMO certification to get GMO-free soy wax, because the hydrogenation process precludes it from being certified organic ... you could use organic certification for original oils and fats only).



Tricksters!  

I wonder what people are using to make all the organic soy candles on the market.

If somone is aware of certified non-gmo soy wax suppliers, please post site on this thread.


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 28, 2018)

This brand started out with GMO free, and they are an America soy wax producer. Although they've dropped GMO-free out of their mainstream products (their GMO statement says that about 94% of soy grown in America is GM), they might have small run GM-free American soy wax, so maybe you could give them a call?

http://ecosoyabrands.com


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 28, 2018)

There is no organically certified soy wax. I recently saw someone claiming they made organic soy candles and did some research.  As I hate people making chai,so that aren’t true.  98% of soy is GMO from the research I did. So like everything else, it’s a personal choice.


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 28, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> There is no organically certified soy wax. I recently saw someone claiming they made organic soy candles and did some research.  As I hate people making chai,so that aren’t true.  98% of soy is GMO from the research I did. So like everything else, it’s a personal choice.



Yup - it's not possible to have an organically certified soy wax.

_"As I hate people making chai,so that aren’t true."_
One coffee is obviously not enough (I don't get it) ... what does this mean?

Your research is pretty close to the numbers that the wax manufacturer (linked above) said, but you've led to an interesting idea ...

@Dean - given that you don't have an aversion to chemical manipulation of oils to make the harder fats, but you want to avoid GM, why not have a look at other oils that are manufactured into fats and waxes (that you might find suitable for your soapmaking)?
(There's a whole hydrogenation industry out there - it's not all soy and GM )


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 28, 2018)

Sorry, should have been claims.  Ha ha


----------



## KiwiMoose (Dec 28, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> Sorry, should have been claims.  Ha ha


I was onto it! I HAVE had my coffee.!


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 28, 2018)

Oh ... that makes sense! (thanks) 

 @ KM


----------



## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Yup - it's not possible to have an organically certified soy wax.
> 
> _"As I hate people making chai,so that aren’t true."_
> One coffee is obviously not enough (I don't get it) ... what does this mean?
> ...



Hey Fig,

I don’t necessarily want to avoid GMO.  I never really thought about it until you enlightened us about the issue and connected it to Monsanto. I’d just like to help find an animal palm free product for those that are concerned bout GMO.


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 28, 2018)

All "issue" type things aside ... if you are using hydrogenated fats, then it would be interesting to find out what else is available
(there might be something even better than soy, is what my coffee-deficient self was trying to convey )


----------



## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> All "issue" type things aside ... if you are using hydrogenated fats, then it would be interesting to find out what else is available
> (there might be something even better than soy, is what my coffee-deficient self was trying to convey )



Hmm...


----------



## penelopejane (Dec 29, 2018)

In australia we have non-GMO soy wax available at most wholesale candle suppliers.  
Interesting. 

I think, Dean, but I am not sure this applies to everyone, that people who are concerned about not using palm oil would be the type of people who also don't want to use GMO products.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Dec 29, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> In australia we have non-GMO soy wax available at most wholesale candle suppliers.
> Interesting.
> 
> I think, Dean, but I am not sure this applies to everyone, that people who are concerned about not using palm oil would be the type of people who also don't want to use GMO products.


Ooh - can you send me some links PJ?  They will probably ship to NZ from there. 

I don't mind GM soy wax for soap, but I wouldn't want to eat GM foods.  Having said that - my son was born with a dairy allergy and has (since weaning) only ever had soy milk.  He won't drink rice milk, oat milk or coconut milk because he doesn't like the taste - and he cannot drink any nut milks because he is allergic to nuts too.  SO there you go - I won't have it but I will let my 11 year old have it.  A hypocrite in every corner 

Edit to add:  Just checked the two brands of soy milk that we tend to buy and both are certified NON-GMO


----------



## penelopejane (Dec 29, 2018)

https://www.aussiecandlesupplies.com.au/candle-making/wax/soy-wax.html
Their golden soybean non-gmo wax is coming from china. 

I'd also try new directions Australia (you'll have to email them because they don't specify non GMO on their site.

As Saltedfig suggested also contact ecosoya
http://ecosoyabrands.com/index.html
because there is a lot of info out there that says they have non-GMO soy wax.


----------



## cmzaha (Dec 29, 2018)

Dean said:


> Hi Carolyn,
> 
> I hope ur enlarged emojis weren’t directed at me as I was responding to Jenn’s post.
> 
> ...


No they were not, and I did not mean for them to be so large, I was just to lazy to work at resizing them. Sorry Just figured it time to shut my mouth. I have made soap with soy wax and have nothing against it, I just still like palm better. I still have a box of soy wax I may use up in soap. Thankyou for the offer. Will pm you


----------



## Lin19687 (Dec 29, 2018)

Dean said:


> Hey Fig,
> I’d just like to help find an animal palm free product for those that are concerned bout GMO.



edited out ... I misunderstood because of lack of punctuation on their part

Also you said "I don’t necessarily want to avoid GMO" but you want to find a product for the people concerned about GMO .   Am I missing something here ?

Use Tallow, Lard Or any other Meat fat if you are looking for a palm free soap.
For Vegan/Vegetarian  use Olive Oil and other plant based oils.
Kinda simple really


----------



## emi (Dec 29, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> @Dean - If you look for certified organic, then by default you are buying GMO free (100% organic or raw products - manufactured products are a slightly different thing *see below)
> 
> (When it's certified organic, it is registered with a certification body and has a certification number, which will be clearly displayed on the label of the product. )
> 
> ...



I love soy wax! I remember when I discovered it and was so happy to find it. It doesn't have much (or any?) conditioning properties so I use other oils and butters to up those qualities. And yes the GMO issue is another layer to deal with. Someone told me back when I first discovered soywax (on this forum i believe) that Akosoy was non-GMO so that's the bag I have now, but I'm still not sure if that's a company or type of soy or what. And after knowing that 98% of soy is GM I'm doubtful that was true. And these numbers that show up like 415, 444. Some seem to have certain additives geared for candle making purposes. I think 415 is the additive-free one but still not totally sure about it all. im all for trying other oils/butters/waxes that can help sub palm but cocoa butter and soywax seem to be the only ones I've found so far and I still dont think they can just be subbed 1:1 just based on acid content, but I don't know. I should try to do a side to side test (but that would involve buying palm which would kinda defeat the whole purpose! ) Plus cocoa is not cheap. I don't sell and just make for personal use and friends so it's not a big deal for me to buy a couple pounds of cocoa but I know that's not the case for sellers buying huge tubs.


----------



## emi (Dec 29, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> Palm is NOT FROM AN ANIMAL and it IS VEGAN.... just because you think that animals are killed and/or lost their home does NOT change the fact that Palm IS VEGAN.
> 
> Also you said "I don’t necessarily want to avoid GMO" but you want to find a product for the people concerned about GMO .   Am I missing something here ?
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone is claiming palm soap to not be vegan. That's why you'll see reference to "vegan palm-free". 

And maybe the part you were missing is that some people are sellers who are wanting to make soaps to provide for their customers specific needs and wants even if they personally don't care for those qualities themselves. Just like how many soap sellers make animal fat soaps but also have a vegan bar for customers who want them.


----------



## Anna Boyd (Dec 29, 2018)

I'm in America and most people do not have much of an idea about palm oil.  I don't use it at all.  I do use lard in the vast majority of my bars, which is actually really well received here for several reasons.  My vegan bars are almost always my 100% olive oil soaps.  I make a few with olive, sunflower, castor and cocoa butter.  Those can and cannot be vegan depending on the milk I use.  Goats milk is huge, but I also use heavy cream, and I use coconut milk for anything specifically vegan.  I also live close to some farming communities.  There will be differing opinions the closer you get to big cities. The majority of people here are not vegan, some vegetarian, but even those who are not do not believe in wasting the life of an animal by simply killing without full use.  Everything is used up, which is one reason why lard bars are more popular.


----------



## Lin19687 (Dec 29, 2018)

emi said:


> I don't think anyone is claiming palm soap to not be vegan. That's why you'll see reference to "vegan palm-free".
> 
> And maybe the part you were missing is that some people are sellers who are wanting to make soaps to provide for their customers specific needs and wants even if they personally don't care for those qualities themselves. Just like how many soap sellers make animal fat soaps but also have a vegan bar for customers who want them.



My bad, there was lacking punctuation when he said Animal Palm free, instead of Animal Free & Palm free.  Like when he wrote "vegan and palm-free recipe" is it Vegan free ? LOL 

I guess I was just not thinking today, still not with the way it is worded.
I do understand, I do sell, been soaping for a long time.   I just choose to soap what I want to soap and don't make anything that is special just for one as it will still be an issue for them............ like soaping on the same table that animal fats were on etc..  yup heard a couple of those.


----------



## Misschief (Dec 29, 2018)

I've only been selling for less than a year and I live in an area that has a lot of vegetarian's/vegans. The market I sell at is in an agricultural/orchard area but caters to the arts community. During the entire season, I had only one person specifically ask if I had any vegan friendly soap and only one (other) person who came back after purchasing a bar and then noticing that it contained lard. Her question wasn't so much about the lard content but more about whether or not the animal fat in the soap would affect her relationship with her tarot cards. 

Once I explained to her why I use lard and that the lard has been changed in the soapmaking process, she walked away satisfied, only commenting that she hoped her tarot cards would understand.  OOOOOOoookay!


----------



## dibbles (Dec 29, 2018)

Misschief said:


> Once I explained to her why I use lard and that the lard has been changed in the soapmaking process, she walked away satisfied, only commenting that she hoped her tarot cards would understand.  OOOOOOoookay!


----------



## Lin19687 (Dec 29, 2018)




----------



## Dean (Dec 29, 2018)

emi said:


> I love soy wax! I remember when I discovered it and was so happy to find it. It doesn't have much (or any?) conditioning properties so I use other oils and butters to up those qualities. And yes the GMO issue is another layer to deal with. Someone told me back when I first discovered soywax (on this forum i believe) that Akosoy was non-GMO so that's the bag I have now, but I'm still not sure if that's a company or type of soy or what. And after knowing that 98% of soy is GM I'm doubtful that was true. And these numbers that show up like 415, 444. Some seem to have certain additives geared for candle making purposes. I think 415 is the additive-free one but still not totally sure about it all. im all for trying other oils/butters/waxes that can help sub palm but cocoa butter and soywax seem to be the only ones I've found so far and I still dont think they can just be subbed 1:1 just based on acid content, but I don't know. I should try to do a side to side test (but that would involve buying palm which would kinda defeat the whole purpose! ) Plus cocoa is not cheap. I don't sell and just make for personal use and friends so it's not a big deal for me to buy a couple pounds of cocoa but I know that's not the case for sellers buying huge tubs.



I use 415 as instructed by Earlene, Queen Mum of SW.


----------



## Dean (Dec 29, 2018)

“Her question wasn't so much about the lard content but more about whether or not the animal fat in the soap would affect her relationship with her tarot cards. ”

Ha!

@Misschief, Thx for sharing.


----------



## emi (Dec 29, 2018)

I know this will get some rolling eyes, and a bit off topic but do you think soywax will sub well for beeswax in lip balm? I've been using this bag of beeswax I've had for years only for lip balms for holiday gifts. But after some reading yet another thing Im trying to add on the list.


----------



## Dean (Dec 29, 2018)

emi said:


> I know this will get some rolling eyes, and a bit off topic but do you think soywax will sub well for beeswax in lip balm? I've been using this bag of beeswax I've had for years only for lip balms for holiday gifts. But after some reading yet another thing Im trying to add on the list.




Good question.  I want to venture into balm too.  Just discovered my fav store bought is palm.  Im hoping to use SW since I have it on hand. Hopefully someone will chime in and let us know.


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 29, 2018)

I personally wouldn't, on the basis that anything in lip balm needs to be somewhat edible. As far as I'm concerned, a soy wax built for candles (even if it has no other additives) is not going to be made to a standard necessary for ingestion. Not sure whether there is a food grade soy wax.

There is a synthetic cocoa butter replacement that is used in the food industry, but I think that one is hydrogenated palm. I know there's a bit of work being done with sunflower too (I can get sunflower lecithin, instead of soy or egg based lecithin, as an example). What that tells me is there's food grade hard synthetic fats, not just the soft margarines, available for use in food products.

So there's a bit of choice (that could be used in lip products) if you are looking to use synthetics


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 29, 2018)

For lip balm you can get candelilla or sunflower wax as a sub for beeswax.


----------



## emi (Dec 29, 2018)

@Dean - I only made lip balm because I realized I had all the ingredients for it from soaping anyway and it's super easy to make! Literally melt and pour... then clean, which is bit of a pain. I got myself a pound bag of organic beeswax back when I started soaping maybe 2-3 years ago for a soap recipe but have since used soywax for such purposes. 

@SaltedFig - Oh right! I didn't even think of the edible, food-grade issue. What do you think about using synthetics? Do you think it counters the effort? Environmentally speaking?


----------



## lsg (Dec 30, 2018)

Referring back to the original post, here is a recipe I like.
8% Castor Oil
25% Cocnut Oil
15% Cocoa Butter
52% Rice Bran Oil


----------



## KiwiMoose (Dec 30, 2018)

Just checked that Aussie site thanks @penelopejane and they sell the same soy wax that I use, and get get from a NZ supplier - GW415 from Golden Brands USA.

On their site it states: "Our soy waxes contain no GMO material! NO paraffin, NO unnatural additives and are Kosher certified."

So that's good news.

However I'm not sure how accurate that claim is - since I can't find the same claim made on any other GW415 sellers' sites.


----------



## penelopejane (Dec 30, 2018)

KiwiMoose said:


> Just checked that Aussie site thanks @penelopejane and they sell the same soy wax that I use, and get get from a NZ supplier - GW415 from Golden Brands USA.
> 
> On their site it states: "Our soy waxes contain no GMO material! NO paraffin, NO unnatural additives and are Kosher certified."
> 
> ...


You can get their MSDS info. I think some have certificates that prove origin. Might be worthwhile checking.

It probably comes from China as they don’t have GMO (although could be Europe).


----------



## Lin19687 (Dec 30, 2018)

lsg said:


> Referring back to the original post, here is a recipe I like.
> 8% Castor Oil
> 25% Cocnut Oil
> 15% Cocoa Butter
> 52% Rice Bran Oil



I'm curious if you have gotten any DOS with this high a RBO ?
I just was playing with my recipes and did a 34% RBO, it also it the only Liquid oil in it.  And I wondered about DOS with that high.


----------



## lsg (Dec 30, 2018)

No, I get my rice bran oil from Riceland and have never had a problem with DOS.  It is food grade oil so I use it to cook with too.  If you are worried about DOS, you can add some rosemary oleoresin to your soap.


----------



## emi (Dec 31, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> @Dean - If you look for certified organic, then by default you are buying GMO free (100% organic or raw products - manufactured products are a slightly different thing *see below)
> 
> (When it's certified organic, it is registered with a certification body and has a certification number, which will be clearly displayed on the label of the product. )
> 
> ...


So I'm confused about GMO. If I'm correct, the general thought against GMO is that if you mess with the genes of one plant, that'll mess up the whole ecosystem and environment. The really controversial one is glyphosate (round-up) weed killer which, if I'm understanding things correctly, kills anything green and is sprayed all over farms then they genetically modify the crops they are trying to grow so that it is resistant to the round-up. I think this is all connected to Monstanto? So I see the issue there. But then I'm also learning that just making hybrid vegetables or even "grafting" is technically considered GMO since GMO just means genetically modified organisms and there's many ways to modify genes. There seems to be some evidence that GMO is very useful too. Anyway it's pretty confusing and I'm wondering if some of the non-GMO controversy is maybe a little blanketed and isn't so black and white that all GMOs are bad? This is one of the videos I've seen that makes me question that all GMOs are bad.



There's tons of videos and info out there but it's hard to know what to trust and what is really scientifically based. Some people (certainly not implying anyone in particular) can be quick to jump onto band wagons about certain issues, like the anti-MSG movement which seems there is no real science behind that claim. It's rough because I often agree with some of the issues at hand, but the stereotypical militant extremists that love to make self-righteous claims to shame everyone and deem themselves superior makes anyone making "alternative" choices look bad. I do understand that GMO and MSG are totally different. Just an example of trend-claims. I'm just trying to understand really what the GMO issue is all about. I'm learning that it's more layered than it seems.


----------



## SaltedFig (Dec 31, 2018)

emi said:


> So I'm confused about GMO. If I'm correct, the general thought against GMO is that if you mess with the genes of one plant, that'll mess up the whole ecosystem and environment. The really controversial one is glyphosate (round-up) weed killer which, if I'm understanding things correctly, kills anything green and is sprayed all over farms then they genetically modify the crops they are trying to grow so that it is resistant to the round-up. I think this is all connected to Monstanto? So I see the issue there. But then I'm also learning that just making hybrid vegetables or even "grafting" is technically considered GMO since GMO just means genetically modified organisms and there's many ways to modify genes. There seems to be some evidence that GMO is very useful too. Anyway it's pretty confusing and I'm wondering if some of the non-GMO controversy is maybe a little blanketed and isn't so black and white that all GMOs are bad? This is one of the videos I've seen that makes me question that all GMOs are bad.
> 
> There's tons of videos and info out there but it's hard to know what to trust and what is really scientifically based. Some people (certainly not implying anyone in particular) can be quick to jump onto band wagons about certain issues, like the anti-MSG movement which seems there is no real science behind that claim. It's rough because I often agree with some of the issues at hand, but the stereotypical militant extremists that love to make self-righteous claims to shame everyone and deem themselves superior makes anyone making "alternative" choices look bad. I do understand that GMO and MSG are totally different. Just an example of trend-claims. I'm just trying to understand really what the GMO issue is all about. I'm learning that it's more layered than it seems.



Genetic selection
Genetic selection (even manipulated by selecting "the best" seeds for a particular trait) is not excluded from organic growing - this is a technique that has been used by farmers for many thousands of years and just on a personal level I use it in my home garden to grow heirloom vegetables (open pollinated, old varieties) to select plants that grow best in my area ... they are still the same vegetable, but my 5th generation of that vegetable is going to be slightly different (and more valuable to my neighbours) than the same vegetable grown in the same way a thousand kilometres from me (this old technique is called localization, and is a form of genetic selection, rather than direct modification).

Grafting
I also use grafting, to join the two plants from the same plant family (usually from the same species, but not always). An example of how this is used is to control the rate of growth of a fruit tree - the dwarf fruit trees that you can buy are grown on a very sturdy rootstock (the part that grows in the ground), and the grafted top is from a tree that might otherwise grow too tall to easily harvest, but has the very best fruit. This technique is used for a variety of reasons, including to provide disease resistance or to allow a plant to grow in conditions more difficult than the standard tree could tolerate. It can also be used for vegetables.
The important point with this is that the genetics of the fruiting top remain the unchanged by growing it on a different rootstock (which is how multi-graft trees work - you can have many different varieties of fruit on the one tree - they keep their genetic differences, so the fruit of each variety remains distinct from one another). Grafting is also allow for organic crop growing.

Hybrid
Hybid vegetables are fairly common, and it is the original way that our (now) heirloom varieties of fruits and vegetables came about. A hybrid is where two known varieties are grown next to each other and cross-pollinate. The seeds of this cross pollination is a hybrid, and when grown on will be like children - they will each have varying traits they've inherited from their parent plants. For crop growing, some of these crosses are valuable (they may be juicier, or stronger, or bigger, or tastier ... etc.), but the seeds of these first crosses tends to be variable (it takes a few generations of growing to stabilize traits), so there is a hybrid numbering system used to denote that the plant is a hybrid, which tells you that if you save the seed and grow it on, it may or may not (most likely not) come out like the original plant. On a commercial level, the cross-pollination process is industrialized (but effectively the same concept) - this is still plant breeding and is acceptable for organic growing.

Genetic modification
Genetic modification is where gene's within the organism are directly manipulated (rather than using breeding techniques)
In the example you gave, roundup ready crops were genetically modified to gave glycosphate resistance using genetic traits of a bacteria.
The concern is that these modifications are transferable and inheritable (for plants, wind and insects are two common vectors).

Glyphosate
Glyphosate itself has proved to be more toxic to mammals than originally thought (the pesticide has been in use for about 40 years).
Aside from any cancer concerns for users of the product, the product doesn't discriminate by insect species, so all insects (including bees) are destroyed.
In addition to this, there is an increased risk of pesticide residue on crops that have been genetically manipulated to resist the pesticide. A withholding period (which is the amount of time prior to harvest that a crop is not to be sprayed) is used for food crops, but there have still been instances where glyphosate residue has been found in products made from these crops.

CRISPR/cas9 & cas13
This is an even newer form of genetic modification, that allows for very rapid (and much cheaper) development of genetic modifications.

Genetic modification is not restricted to plants. The ethics around gene technologies are still being debated, and vary between countries.
https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2018/12/...-losing-track-of-gene-edited-crispr-patients/

Where the problem currently lies with GM, is that we simply don't know enough about the permanent outcomes of the changes we are making (yet).

CRISPR, for gene splicing, has been around for less than a decade.

This might be something you'd like to read: https://www.vox.com/2018/7/23/17594864/crispr-cas9-gene-editing


----------



## Crazy Beaver (Jan 1, 2019)

Deadgroovy said:


> Does anyone here that sells soap see any advantage in going palm free? Do you get people asking for palm free soap?
> All my soaps contain palm oil and am thinking of trying shea butter as a replacement. I need to decide whether or not to go palm free before I submit for cosmetic testing



I do sell soap and have for over 6 years. I do get asked for palm oil free options as people are not well informed about palm and that it can come from a certified sustainable source, which all of my supplies do, and would even if I was just making it for myself. It seems to come in waves those that ask for palm free, of which I make some anyways, like a lard soap for eg. I do have a vegan palm free as well, but I just prefer vegan soap with palm in it. I dont have time to wait for long cures and there is someone else making it already and she doesn't seem to sell much. I use lots of different oils in soaps on a regular basis and have tried thousands of combinations without palm. I just prefer to use it, lesss hassle for me. I don't use soy at all, that would go over here worse then the palm. Lol


----------



## emi (Jan 3, 2019)

I recently joined a vegan forum and learned this about palm oil:

"The World Wildlife Fund argues that supporting sustainable palm oil does wildlife more good than boycotting palm oil entirely. Why? Because conscious eaters pressure companies to conform to ethical practices. Without people like us, the unconscious, uneducated or simply unfortunate majority will happily eat cheap unsustainable palm oil because they either don't know or don't care. It's the same mentality of people like me who promote vegan products because when there's a market for vegan it spreads and permeates culture. That's just how capitalism works, no matter what the ideal would be, sustainable palm oil and vegan fast food are preferable to same old same old."

Any thoughts?



SaltedFig said:


> Genetic selection
> Genetic selection (even manipulated by selecting "the best" seeds for a particular trait) is not excluded from organic growing - this is a technique that has been used by farmers for many thousands of years and just on a personal level I use it in my home garden to grow heirloom vegetables (open pollinated, old varieties) to select plants that grow best in my area ... they are still the same vegetable, but my 5th generation of that vegetable is going to be slightly different (and more valuable to my neighbours) than the same vegetable grown in the same way a thousand kilometres from me (this old technique is called localization, and is a form of genetic selection, rather than direct modification).
> 
> Grafting
> ...



Wow this was so informative. Thank you. I understand that organic certification allows for grafting, genetic selection, hybrids. Can I assume though that this means when things are labeled "GMO free" it is referring specifically to the direct gentic modification and not concerning itself with hybrids, grafting, genetic selection. Therefore GMO free is a lable we should seek and trust?


----------



## Anna Boyd (Jan 11, 2019)

emi said:


> I recently joined a vegan forum and learned this about palm oil:
> 
> "The World Wildlife Fund argues that supporting sustainable palm oil does wildlife more good than boycotting palm oil entirely. Why? Because conscious eaters pressure companies to conform to ethical practices. Without people like us, the unconscious, uneducated or simply unfortunate majority will happily eat cheap unsustainable palm oil because they either don't know or don't care. It's the same mentality of people like me who promote vegan products because when there's a market for vegan it spreads and permeates culture. That's just how capitalism works, no matter what the ideal would be, sustainable palm oil and vegan fast food are preferable to same old same old."
> 
> Any thoughts?



I would agree with where they are coming from, and even the thought process behind it, but from my own research it might not work that well unless a LARGE percentage of people actually start paying attention.
This is a good article: abc.net.au/news/science/2018-06-16/orangutan-video-comes-as-sustainable-palm-oil-questioned/9811642

Palm oil has the potential to be fully sustainable, but there seems to be a lot of resistance to the area in industry, and people just are not educated enough to actually care, let alone put effort into affecting a change.


----------



## TeresaGG (Jan 11, 2019)

emi said:


> Therefore GMO free is a lable we should seek and trust?


More like seek and verify rather than seek and Trust. 
I don't know if this holds true for GMO  but I know it's true for certified organic, In the USA, If the product is a combination of local ingredients and imported ingredients from an area that does not have certification then if the local product is certified it can be labeled as certified even if the imported portion is actually not organic. This is often the case with honey.


----------



## Meena (Feb 4, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> That demand may eventually spread to the US.
> Just make sure your soy wax is non-GMO and advertised as such or you will run headlong into another wall of resistance.



I am the bulwark of that wall...  





Dean said:


> Tricksters!
> 
> I wonder what people are using to make all the organic soy candles on the market.
> 
> If somone is aware of certified non-gmo soy wax suppliers, please post site on this thread.



If such an actually non-GMO soy wax could be found, I would be happy to try it.



emi said:


> Anyway it's pretty confusing and I'm wondering if some of the non-GMO controversy is maybe a little blanketed and isn't so black and white that all GMOs are bad? This is one of the videos I've seen that makes me question that all GMOs are bad.
> 
> 
> 
> There's tons of videos and info out there but it's hard to know what to trust and what is really scientifically based. Some people (certainly not implying anyone in particular) can be quick to jump onto band wagons about certain issues, like the anti-MSG movement which seems there is no real science behind that claim. It's rough because I often agree with some of the issues at hand, but the stereotypical militant extremists that love to make self-righteous claims to shame everyone and deem themselves superior makes anyone making "alternative" choices look bad. I do understand that GMO and MSG are totally different. Just an example of trend-claims. I'm just trying to understand really what the GMO issue is all about. I'm learning that it's more layered than it seems.




Mr. Tyson is not a reliable source.  Grafting and hybridization are not the same as Genetic Modification.  Grafting and hybridization have been going on through much of human history, and pose no threats or problems.

GM plants have genes from other plants, animals, insects, VIRUSES, and other such wondrous items spliced into the genes of the target plant.  Much of genetic modification has revolved around either, 1) causing a plant to manufacture its own pesticides.  When this is done, the pesticide is inside the entire plant and can't be washed off, etc.
2) creating a 'food' plant that can withstand the application of the powerful herbicide, glyphosate, which then kills everything but that 'food' plant.
GMO food has been scientifically proven to have an altered and inferior nutrition profile.  This means that you can google and find side-by-side comparisons of the nutritional components of 'natural' plants versus the GM version.

The further problem is that glyphosate kills soil bacteria and microorganisms which are NECESSARY for the plant to uptake and/or manufacture the nutrients that YOU DEPEND ON being there when you eat, otherwise your belly is getting full but your cells (to collapse your body system into one word) are not getting what they need to sustain your LIFE.  At a certain, probably unknown critical mass, the soils on this planet that have been subjected to glyphosate/roundup will NOT be able to produce nutritious food or maybe no food at all!  GOODBYE HUMANS!!



emi said:


> So I'm confused about GMO. If I'm correct, the general thought against GMO is that if you mess with the genes of one plant, that'll mess up the whole ecosystem and environment. The really controversial one is glyphosate (round-up) weed killer which, if I'm understanding things correctly, kills anything green and is sprayed all over farms then they genetically modify the crops they are trying to grow so that it is resistant to the round-up. I think this is all connected to Monstanto? So I see the issue there. But then I'm also learning that just making hybrid vegetables or even "grafting" is technically considered GMO since GMO just means genetically modified organisms and there's many ways to modify genes. There seems to be some evidence that GMO is very useful too. Anyway it's pretty confusing and I'm wondering if some of the non-GMO controversy is maybe a little blanketed and isn't so black and white that all GMOs are bad? This is one of the videos I've seen that makes me question that all GMOs are bad.
> 
> 
> 
> There's tons of videos and info out there but it's hard to know what to trust and what is really scientifically based. Some people (certainly not implying anyone in particular) can be quick to jump onto band wagons about certain issues, like the anti-MSG movement which seems there is no real science behind that claim. It's rough because I often agree with some of the issues at hand, but the stereotypical militant extremists that love to make self-righteous claims to shame everyone and deem themselves superior makes anyone making "alternative" choices look bad. I do understand that GMO and MSG are totally different. Just an example of trend-claims. I'm just trying to understand really what the GMO issue is all about. I'm learning that it's more layered than it seems.





MSG is an "excitotoxin" -  https://www.google.com/search?q=MSG...rome..69i57.5662j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


----------



## SaltedFig (Feb 4, 2019)

emi said:


> Wow this was so informative. Thank you. I understand that organic certification allows for grafting, genetic selection, hybrids. Can I assume though that this means when things are labeled "GMO free" it is referring specifically to the direct gentic modification and not concerning itself with hybrids, grafting, genetic selection. Therefore GMO free is a lable we should seek and trust?



Sorry I missed your earlier post. You're welcome 

Yes, that is correct - GMO is specific to direct genetic modification (not hybrids, grafting, genetic selection, etc.).
(refer my post #65 for details)


----------



## Atihcnoc (Mar 30, 2019)

Dean said:


> Post your favorite vegan and palm-free recipe. Mine is here.



Hi Dean, I try to see your favorite recipe without success, your link opens in a Soapee page with this message:

*"Private Recipe*
This recipe has been marked as private and can only be viewed by the owner."

Can you please write your post here in the forum or can you please send it to me?

Thank you.


----------

