# Does this drive you nuts?



## Neve (Dec 18, 2013)

One of my biggest peeves is laziness - ie. people wanting to take shortcuts from all MY hard work. Like if I spend hours, days, months on something and they want me to lead them straight to the results without doing any work themselves. I just hate it!

Do you guys feel like that? I spend months researching, learning, experimenting with my own recipes and some complete stranger asks me to share them with him just because he's a 'newbie'. Like that gives him any right to a freaking handout. Guess what, I've been doing this all of three months, I'm pretty sure that makes me a 'newbie' myself and I'm not asking anyone to give me their recipes.

Sorry, I think people should get off their ass and do things for themselves...people are just too lazy and want everything handed to them these days.

That's my rant... wondering if this is a hot button for anyone else like it is for me!


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## lizflowers42 (Dec 18, 2013)

I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time, if people weren't willing to help others I never would have started making soap in the first place.


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## Neve (Dec 18, 2013)

It's not just soap... it's everything. I have no problem with helping, I help people all the time, I just prefer that those people also try to help themselves, and, well, TRY. Not just sit on the couch and demand answers.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 18, 2013)

I tend to be on the receiving end of advice rather than the giving end at the moment, but I can understand the frustration.  Personally I would be more than happy with a basic recipe in the sort of direction that I was looking at rather than the all-singing-all-dancing finely tuned recipe that someone worked long and hard for.  I could then take the basic idea and work on it myself, learning as I go.

I ask the sorts of questions that I think I would like to be asked in the years to come when I have experience.  So I wouldn't ask "What is the recipe of your best selling face soap?" but rather "What sort of things should I look to put in a face soap, and why?" so that I get a more general heading and scope for learning in.

Personally I feel I'd be more likely to get answers that way, plus I'm not just getting 1 recipe but the tools to develop something that is truly my own.


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## Neve (Dec 18, 2013)

Exactly... something about teaching a man to fish?

I just feel that people want to circumvent the learning process for many things in life. When I was marking student assignments they would write two word answers and expect full marks. Um, no, open your textbook.


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## Neve (Dec 18, 2013)

Don't get the wrong idea about me, I have always, and will always, help anyone who makes an effort to learn something. I'm just not going to give them the answer if they didn't make any attempt themselves. 

I am new at this but already friends are quoting recipes on Pinterest that I know are unsafe... like they want to make a lotion with water and have no idea that they need to use a preservative, but they want to give it to their family for Christmas. Yes I jump in and put them straight on that one! But it bothers me that they don't trouble to just do a little bit of research before blindly copying a recipe they found somewhere.


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## Feather (Dec 18, 2013)

If you join a forum to share information, you can bet that you'll ask questions and that in all fairness you'll also share information.

However, if someone goes way over the boundary of asking for your very tweeked recipe, you don't have to answer them. Or you can tailor your answer in this way.

Q: Can I have your recipe for xxx?
A: No but I did find that adding soft oils helped it to trace slower.
or
A: Sure you can have my recipe, I charge $400 for it now and since it is so successful, the price is $900/use of it. Do you have paypal?


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## Obsidian (Dec 18, 2013)

I'm still a newbie myself but I do have a couple recipes I won't share. If I come across a post asking for a good basic recipe I will happily post something or help them formulate a recipe for their needs but if some one outright asks for a recipe, I'll say no.

It doesn't really upset me though and as a beginner, I asked people for their recipes not knowing how long it could take to formulate a perfect recipe. I figured there was standard recipes everyone used and I was looking for one.


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## ourwolfden (Dec 18, 2013)

Obsidian said:


> I'm still a newbie myself but I do have a couple recipes I won't share. If I come across a post asking for a good basic recipe I will happily post something or help them formulate a recipe for their needs but if some one outright asks for a recipe, I'll say no.
> 
> It doesn't really upset me though and as a beginner, I asked people for their recipes not knowing how long it could take to formulate a perfect recipe. I figured there was standard recipes everyone used and I was looking for one.


 
I didn’t realize that either when I first started.  I should have but it never occurred to me that so much experimentation when on to find the perfect recipe.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 18, 2013)

To paraphrase a wise man ... my feeling angry or frustrated about someone else's apparent ignorance or laziness is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die. 

I get frustrated too, don't get me wrong. But when I do, I try to remember this perspective, let go, and move on. It helps. :idea:


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## songwind (Dec 18, 2013)

Neve said:


> I just feel that people want to circumvent the learning process for many things in life.



To be fair, asking an informed source is a time-honored and well respected way to gain knowledge. So I'm not sure this counts as circumventing the learning process.

When I'm in the position of an expert (which I really only am on computers) I find it's usually best to take a middle way. You don't want the newbie flailing around, hurting themselves and breaking stuff. At the same time, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot and use up all your time spoon feeding them everything you've figured out. So there is usually some sort of basics I'm happy to share with anyone, and more advanced or valuable things I keep to myself.

So if I were a journeyman or masterful soaper, I would probably happily help anyone figure out their basic bastile soap recipe and troubleshoot their first efforts. But I'd keep my list of the public's very favorite scents, and which scent/color combinations make the soap turn out badly to myself. (Examples made up out of thin air, may not really be a thing.) For one thing, we have to experiment in order to hone our skills!


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## pamielynn (Dec 18, 2013)

My son and hubby like to make paracord bracelets - just for fun and pocket change. This weekend they came to a show with me and no less than three people came up and asked them how they make theirs - after telling us that they make the bracelets too! Well, why are you asking then? One guy came up and asked: 1. Where do you buy your paracord? 2. Where do you buy the findings? 3. How do you start the braid? 4. How do you tie it off? 4. How do you get into shows? Geesh - figure out some things for yourself, please.


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## Neve (Dec 18, 2013)

To be clearer I'm not talking about people asking for help on a forum - I'm talking about people who are too slack to even visit a forum!

Asking for help is fine. Asking a complete stranger on Facebook to just give you something I find quite rude. Now if it was phrased as an actual question asking for help with something specific that they are having trouble with that's different. It means they actually put some thought into it. 

I guess it's just me


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## Neve (Dec 18, 2013)

Yes. This. Exactly!!!! It happens to many vendors at our markets here. Including me. 

I sell wildlife prints and they come up and say 'tell me where to find these animals' or for an aurora photo 'what camera settings to I use and how to I take this photo'. FCOL just google it!



pamielynn said:


> My son and hubby like to make paracord bracelets - just for fun and pocket change. This weekend they came to a show with me and no less than three people came up and asked them how they make theirs - after telling us that they make the bracelets too! Well, why are you asking then? One guy came up and asked: 1. Where do you buy your paracord? 2. Where do you buy the findings? 3. How do you start the braid? 4. How do you tie it off? 4. How do you get into shows? Geesh - figure out some things for yourself, please.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 18, 2013)

In many cases it seems to be people essentially saying "tell me everything that you have spent time learning so I can make this stuff myself and avoid paying you for your expertise"


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## pamielynn (Dec 18, 2013)

Neve said:


> Yes. This. Exactly!!!! It happens to many vendors at our markets here. Including me.
> 
> I sell wildlife prints and they come up and say 'tell me where to find these animals' or for an aurora photo 'what camera settings to I use and how to I take this photo'. FCOL just google it!



you so need say things like "Africa" "The frozen Tundra" "Papua New Guinea". I'd love to see their faces


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## dixiedragon (Dec 18, 2013)

Neve, perhaps you are taking this a bit personally? Of course you don't have to give out your special fine-tuned recipe, but I don't necessarily think that a person asking is "sitting on the couch demanding answers". If they give you a hard time when you decline, then of course that's rude. but I don't think it's necessarily rude or lazy to say, "Hey, I love your soap (or lotion or brownies or potroast) can I have the recipe?"

Ingredients are expensive, and I think many people want a "starting point" and not just randomly input some stuff into the soapcalc. So I think it's perfectly okay to point them to a good starting point while not sharing your special recipes.

Also, I think some times people ask for recipes just as a way to make polite conversation.


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## Neve (Dec 18, 2013)

And you are assuming that they ask this politely...




dixiedragon said:


> Neve, perhaps you are taking this a bit personally? Of course you don't have to give out your special fine-tuned recipe, but I don't necessarily think that a person asking is "sitting on the couch demanding answers". If they give you a hard time when you decline, then of course that's rude. but I don't think it's necessarily rude or lazy to say, "Hey, I love your soap (or lotion or brownies or potroast) can I have the recipe?"
> 
> Ingredients are expensive, and I think many people want a "starting point" and not just randomly input some stuff into the soapcalc. So I think it's perfectly okay to point them to a good starting point while not sharing your special recipes.
> 
> Also, I think some times people ask for recipes just as a way to make polite conversation.


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## eyeroll (Dec 18, 2013)

Neve said:


> I guess it's just me




I don't think so; I think most who have responded agree with you.


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## Stinkydancer (Dec 18, 2013)

Neve said:


> One of my biggest peeves is laziness - ie. people wanting to take shortcuts from all MY hard work. Like if I spend hours, days, months on something and they want me to lead them straight to the results without doing any work themselves. I just hate it!
> 
> Do you guys feel like that? I spend months researching, learning, experimenting with my own recipes and some complete stranger asks me to share them with him just because he's a 'newbie'. Like that gives him any right to a freaking handout. Guess what, I've been doing this all of three months, I'm pretty sure that makes me a 'newbie' myself and I'm not asking anyone to give me their recipes.
> 
> ...



Yes!!! Amen Sister! FYI- I rent out my grandma if anyone wants to learn to make soap the old fashioned way.


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## judymoody (Dec 18, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> To paraphrase a wise man ... my feeling angry or frustrated about someone else's apparent ignorance or laziness is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.



Thanks, I need to remember this!

I don't mind naive questions asked in ignorance.  I do mind it when people dig in after receiving some gentle advice about etiquette.

We all have to start somewhere and if we get somewhere, I think it's nice to pay it forward if the person who's asking for help is genuinely willing to learn.


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## AKjulz (Dec 18, 2013)

Well said judymoody.  
I'm always WAY too happy to help when talking to other soap vendors at local shows.  Over the course if my business I have learned that there is a fine line in helping and giving suggestions, to just handing out all your hard earned efforts. I am continually reminding myself that from a business perspective it's important not to share ALL.  I'm a helper type personality and have to make a concerted effort to say no, or if that's just too much confrontation be vague about specific suppliers, recipes or propitiatory info when people get too pushy or rude.  
Part of my problem is I'm so darn trusting and it's fun to share our craft and help people who are just learning  I have to remember that there are many people out there that really do just want a short cut and will take advantage. And of course we wouldn't want to enable them in their laziness


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## pamielynn (Dec 19, 2013)

It's always fun to talk to other soapers, but I think the comparison of asking for a recipe for a product you are selling is a smidge different than asking for a cookie recipe. And if the the person is in the cookie selling business, it's just as rude to ask for the recipe. I met a soaper lately who is selling way too soon after making her first batch, but we talked and I told her what I could, in terms of my own experience. But in no way would I give out my recipe - my ingredients are listed. If anyone wants to copy, they can go from there. And it's not like it's classified or anything - there's only so many ways to make soap; but I still feel that it's rude to just come up and ask for a recipe - not just what's in the soap.


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## Ancel (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm a teacher and so answering questions is pretty much par for the course. And I do tend to give away all of my secrets (I dislike secrets), and then sometimes kick myself for it. I think most of us came to this forum ignorant, but enthusiastic, and asked either direct questions or gleaned from others' queries. We all have to start somewhere, and people learn differently - there are so many people who aren't comfortable learning on computers, but want to talk to a real person with live information. 
It sounds like your peeve was from a comment made on Facebook? From a stranger? I don't know the context, so I may be completely off. I'm responding because I'm definitely guilty of asking those I perceive to be knowledgable stupid questions, usually out of enthusiasm and an immediate desire to know.


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## neeners (Dec 19, 2013)

Neve, i totally agree.  

once, i did a food event with a friend, and this one woman who attended wanted us to give her menu ideas for a restaurant that SHE RUNS.  we were too busy to chat with her at the event.  a few days after, she msged me saying "oh, if you have any ideas, feel free to send them my way!".  i mean....you OWN a restaurant and you want FREE advice on what to put on your own menu?  c'mon lady.  do some research!  can't stand the laziness!  

for me, i find it annoying when someone doesn't do any research.  there's a really big difference between someone going "so what's the recipe and how do you do this?" vs. "so I've done some reading and this is what I've found.  does this sound reasonable for a newbie?".  i'd much rather help person #2 than person #1.  my responses to person #1 is usually to go do some research and ask me if they have questions.


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## dixiedragon (Dec 19, 2013)

I totally see where if you are selling, being asked for your recipe probably does feel rude. But I do think a lot of times, a person who isn't selling just isn't thinking it all the way through. They don't think, "Hey, this person has put a lot of time and effort into this and they're trying to make some extra money doing it." Rather, they're thinking, "This stuff is GREAT! This person seems nice, I'll just ask them how they made it." Everybody who has asked me, I've said, "I love Soap Making Forum. Lots of good information there. I also like The Sage, Brambleberry and Miller Soap." And they all say thanks. 

Anybody who keeps pressing after that is rude. 

But the restaurant lady? Pretty weird. I'd think that one of the main points of owning your own restaurant would be designing your own menu. (If I ever own a restuarent, the breakfast menu will be Chinese food b/c I LOVE Chinese food for breakfast.)


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## neeners (Dec 19, 2013)

dixiedragon said:


> But the restaurant lady? Pretty weird. I'd think that one of the main points of owning your own restaurant would be designing your own menu. (If I ever own a restuarent, the breakfast menu will be Chinese food b/c I LOVE Chinese food for breakfast.)


 
it's being lazy, not wanting to do your research and put effort into your product.  i put effort into things i GIVE AWAY.  i don't even know what lengths i'd go to if i were to sell!  let me just tell you I've never heard good reviews from her restaurant....


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## Neve (Dec 19, 2013)

Yes it was. I posted that the soaps etc. were ready for pickup for the ladies who chipped in a little cash each for the supplies, and a complete stranger randomly commented "can you give me your recipe I'm a newbie".

Firstly, which one, there are like ten of them! What do you want to make? And who the heck are you anyway! You didn't show any interest up until now. And I wanted to go ballistic on him because like I said it's one of my hot buttons. I guess because I am self-taught in pretty much everything and while I accept that many people need to be shown stuff, I don't accept people just wanting to go from A-Z and skipping everything in between. The information is there on the internet for everyone... it's not hard to find. Heck I learned a ton just by reading this forum before I made anything and before I joined.

Another lady PM'd me to ask if I had a body butter recipe I could give her. Well, because she asked nicely, I pointed her to the fabulous one sold in a store in town for way less than it would cost her to buy all those oils and butters. She thanked me. I didn't have a recipe I could share anyway.



Ancel said:


> It sounds like your peeve was from a comment made on Facebook? From a stranger?


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## Neve (Dec 19, 2013)

Yup. That's exactly how I feel. I always help person #2, in any way I can. #1 is the exact thing I am talking about. Doesn't want to do any work at all. They just want to reap the rewards of other people's hard work with no compensation.


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## MarisaJensen (Dec 22, 2013)

I'm actually a bit upset at this. As a newbie but someone who without any help so far who has successfully made 21 batches of soap and 4 failed batches. Reading a book a non stop research online then stumbling into this forum I now feel un-welcomed to ask questions. 


If I was a no visit soap maker I would and WILL be sharing my knowledge with anyone who wants help. 

Thank you for making me lurker within my first couple of weeks of signing up. roblem:


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## Neve (Dec 22, 2013)

Please re-read the post, properly this time. If you have been lurking on this forum, reading and trying to learn, then you are NOT one of the people I am referring to.

I am a newbie as well you know! But get this, two of my friends recently asked me to show them how to make stuff, then the next week they were turning around and selling it! No effort to learn about anything properly, asked me what to do, what to put in, how to do it - then sell! And they know a lot less than I do and I'm not selling (yet). Would you like it if you were selling at a market stall and every week people came up to you trying to gain all your knowledge so they can set up shop next store? I don't think you would. Wait until it happens to you and then see how you feel about it, knowing that it is a deliberate attempt by such people to do as little as possible because hey, you already did it for them!

You say you've made 21 batches and have been doing non-stop research - so how could you possibly be upset? You are person #2, the type people WANT to help! I am also person #2. So are probably many people. I am talking about the truly lazy people that want to copy someone rather than put in any effort.




MarisaJensen said:


> I'm actually a bit upset at this. As a newbie but someone who without any help so far who has successfully made 21 batches of soap and 4 failed batches. Reading a book a non stop research online then stumbling into this forum I now feel un-welcomed to ask questions.
> 
> 
> If I was a no visit soap maker I would and WILL be sharing my knowledge with anyone who wants help.
> ...


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## rebekahhall (Dec 23, 2013)

I had a woman come up to my booth at a market and asked a ton of questions about how I make my candles. 1 month later she showed up at the same market selling candles and set  right next to me! Lol I totally get what you are saying.


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## rebekahhall (Dec 23, 2013)

It took me a year of experimenting and perfecting to develop my candles before I was comfortable selling them to strangers.


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## Feather (Dec 23, 2013)

Neve said:


> But get this, two of my friends recently asked me to show them how to make stuff, then the next week they were turning around and selling it! No effort to learn about anything properly, asked me what to do, what to put in, how to do it - then sell! And they know a lot less than I do and I'm not selling (yet).



These people were NOT your friends. They are your competitors in business. 
I had a friend like that once, after she slept with my husband at the time, it pretty much decided things for me, that I wasn't her friend and she wasn't mine. I was once much younger than I am now. :shh:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 23, 2013)

I must admit, if someone I know asked me to show them, I'd explain that it's okay, I WANT to make stuff so I'll make it for them if they tell me what they want!


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## Lin (Dec 23, 2013)

Not too long ago I made some products in front of my boyfriend, lip balm, body butter, lotion bars. The good thing that came of it was it got him interested in it and soaping and after watching the soaping 101 dollar store video he took me to dollar tree and said to pick out everything I'd need to soap. However he also immediately started talking about selling stuff like the products I'd made, which made me pretty uncomfortable! But since then he's been researching and asking me to send him links from where I learned stuff.


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## Feather (Dec 23, 2013)

Most companies don't make it because it usually takes more than one specialty.
1. A head business person
2. A good marketing person
3. A do-er

Most people can't do all three. So I guess if you meet one of those people and you can be one of those people, you can have a better chance at a successful business.
I'm better at 1 and 3, I'm lousy at 2.


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## Scentapy (Dec 24, 2013)

I  consider anyone on this forum - reading and sharing as "doing their research" and so I think it is perfectly fine to share and receive info on this forum. 

However, I recently had a girl come up to my booth at a craft fair and say "Oh, I have always wanted to make this stuff and start my own business" and then she proceeded to turn my products around and read the ingredient labels.  I thought that was SO RUDE.  In addition to that, she started to ask me questions about how I make the products.  I responded with "It has taken me years of research and development to get my recipes where I am happy and proud of my product".  PERIOD - I said nothing more because I am NOT going to hand all my info over to a local individual that is going to pop up and compete with me with MY OWN recipes and experience!  Sorry - its not personal, its business!

I am more than HAPPY to exchange on this forum though because I feel that everyone on here is contributing - even if its just reading - they are still doing the research.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 29, 2013)

There's a part of me (a small but very evil part) that would want to respond with something like "You can use jam instead of lye.  You'll never read about it as it's a huge secret within the soaping world, but whenever we talk about lye, we actually mean jam.  Have fun"


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## Feather (Dec 29, 2013)

Scentapy, I agree with you on all you wrote. 
That saying "this is not personal it is business" always rubs me the wrong way. (not you) I've even said it before. It's a common phrase. It still seems so wrong to me.

It is personal when someone steals your ideas/recipes/husband so they can benefit in business or income and it takes your rights away with them competing with you, and possibly your income, so then, you have no business, no money, and it is very personal. Follow me?

In the movie Erin Brockovich, she responded to this saying "this is not personal it is business".



> Erin Brockovich: NOT PERSONAL! That is my WORK, my SWEAT, and MY TIME AWAY FROM MY KIDS! IF THAT IS NOT PERSONAL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS!



I'll probably scream Erin Brockovich's words the next time someone says that to me. (not to you Scentapy)

T. E. G. "jam" :lolno::lolno:
2 cups of apricot jam
4 cups of lies (ha)
4 cups of oils of nightshade
Mix well and you get soap.


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## savonierre (Dec 29, 2013)

I find people that try to take the easy way never last very long in the business, it is a hard very costly business to be in.


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## Miz Jenny (Dec 29, 2013)

It happens to me all the time. Mostly at my farmers markets. I smile and tell them my recipes are proprietary information and suggest they take to the internet and books and spend a couple years doing research and sample batches. At this point, they usually assume the deer in the headlights stare. My suggestion is to not get caught up in the anger because it will drive you nuts. Not an easy task because I constantly tell myself the same.


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## Neve (Dec 29, 2013)

Haha deer in headlights! What, you mean you won't just hand it all over?


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## Ruthie (Dec 30, 2013)

I've had a couple of people ask to "help" make soap, and I do not mind their company.  I just mix up my oils ahead of time so I'm not giving away my "trade secrets" and make a simple oil/water/lye soap.  If they find it gets them interested, fine.  They can start their own research.  If they are not interested (either in soapmaking or in researching for themselves) that is fine, too.  And we are still friends.  As far as strangers that come up and want me to spill my guts, I tell them about SMF.  That is doing them a huge favor, whether they recognize it or not.


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## Miz Jenny (Dec 30, 2013)

Neve said:


> Haha deer in headlights! What, you mean you won't just hand it all over?



Nope. Last summer one very strange girl kept coming in and asking me how to make soap. I kept giving her the same answer and smiling as I said it. One day she got ugly and said "I want to know how "you" make soap." To which I replied "You will have to learn the same way I did and put in the same amount of time in research and testing. My recipes and methods are proprietary information and I'm not going to share them with you." At that point, I turned away from her to help another customer. She wasn't a customer (she'd never bought anything) and I didn't care if she ever came back. Believe me when I tell you, I have to be pushed to my last nerve to give that kind of response.


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## dixiedragon (Dec 30, 2013)

Miz Jenny - how odd! I almost wonder if she wanted to "catch" you doing something "wrong" somehow. Very weird! And if she'd never bought anything from you, then it's not even a case of her wanting to duplicate your recipe b/c she loved it.

I'm not a seller (except at the very very occasional tiny craft show), so I have had far fewer opportunities to be hassled by nuts. I have had people ask me how I make soap - and I give a general answer, such as I mix oils and then I mix lye with water and mix them together. They usually ask, "What oils do you use?" so I tell them, "Mostly stuff you can buy at the grocery store. I use lard, olive oil and coconut oil." And that always satisfies them. Sometimes they'll ask something like, "Why coconut oil?" and I'll tell them it gives big, fluffy bubbles. I've never had anybody press me for my specific recipe. I tell them that I use this site for info, and also millersoap.com.

Next time I go to a craft show I think I will ask the people there (not just soapers) if they regularly have people demand their special recipe/technique. I'm just curious how wide-spread this is.


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## Miz Jenny (Dec 30, 2013)

dixiedragon said:


> Miz Jenny - how odd! I almost wonder if she wanted to "catch" you doing something "wrong" somehow. Very weird! And if she'd never bought anything from you, then it's not even a case of her wanting to duplicate your recipe b/c she loved it.



She was very odd. Always got in my personal space and I had to keep backing up. She stared and her eyes never blinked. It was like she was stalking me. I'm sure y'all who do markets get women who proudly proclaim "I use Arbonne products because they're all natural. It says so on their website." It goes with the territory and makes for some interesting memories.


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## cmzaha (Dec 30, 2013)

MarisaJensen said:


> I'm actually a bit upset at this. As a newbie but someone who without any help so far who has successfully made 21 batches of soap and 4 failed batches. Reading a book a non stop research online then stumbling into this forum I now feel un-welcomed to ask questions.
> 
> 
> If I was a no visit soap maker I would and WILL be sharing my knowledge with anyone who wants help.
> ...


 
Congratulations on your 21 batches. Don't become a lurker, we have all asked questions. I even visit a forum that we tend to even pass along our recipes to each other. Most are seasoned, long time soapmakers and no one gets mad when asked a question. I even pm'ed a gal and asked how she made an item and she sent me her recipe.  She has been selling for years and did not get mad when I asked, although I did not ask directly for her recipe just asked for recommendations. I tweaked it to suit me but she gave me some good ideas and a starting point.

I had a fella that does buy soap from me ask me how I make it. I told him the basics and actually told him where he could find recipes. A few months later he came to my booth all excited and told me I would be so excited that he finally made some soap. Actually I was very excited for him. LOL, he still bought a couple of bars of soap, and he shared with me his tooth cleaning recipe. Which I promised to never sell and he did not mind it I do want to sell it. You see, he has a son with stage 4 cancer (late 20's) whom is a musician and lost his hearing after a transplant procedure where they had to induce a coma. I met him at City of Hope's farmer market. He just wants to use all natural and is interested in how products are made. He is also going to bring me fresh aloe and a bar of soap! You just never know why someone is asking. Also if people are asking at market how you make soap many times they are just curious and when you mention sodium hydroxide they scare off quickly and say "Oh, I would be afraid to use that."

So don't just lurk and be afraid of asking questions. There is always something to learn by asking questions. After 6+ yrs of soapmaking I ask questions.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 31, 2013)

"... Always got in my personal space and I had to keep backing up. She stared and her eyes never blinked...."

That sounds like a student I once had who had a type of high-functioning autism. He had awkward mannerisms, had difficulty reading social cues, and often was incredibly focused on a goal or idea to the point of obsession. You could describe him as a "nerd" or "geek" to an extreme degree, which is saying something because I am a card-carrying geek myself. I eventually learned I had to be, from my point of view, very blunt and borderline rude to communicate with him at times. 

If Miz Jenny's "stalker" was like my student or had another type of mental disorder, then I can understand why the encounters were disturbing.


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## Tienne (Dec 31, 2013)

My grandmother-in-law made the world's best bread. It was the best bread I have ever tasted. She refused to share her recipe with anyone and she took the recipe with her to the grave. I remember thinking how stupid that was and how selfish. All her knowledge and experience was lost and gone forever because of pride. She would rather everyone never have her bread ever again, than share the recipe so the people left behind could bake it and recall fond memories of her while they enjoyed "Grandma's bread". I think all her years of perfecting the bread were, as I see it, totally in vain because that gorgeous bread might just as well never have existed. 

I will share any soap recipe I have made, with anyone who asks. I will share any knowledge or experience I have with anyone who asks, too. I would feel proud that anyone would want to make a soap I had formulated or asked me for advice about anything. I don't believe there are any shortcuts in life, so if a "lazy" newbie asked for a recipe, without the proper knowledge of what to actually *do* with those ingredients (and how and when), the recipe itself would be useless to them. Can you imagine someone with no background knowledge or willingness to learn the process, being able to throw together a recipe containing perhaps sugar, honey, beer or GM or any other specialty thing and have a _good_ soap come out of it? I don't think so! LOL Just having the recipe isn't nearly enough to make a good soap. 

I was raised to share and to know, that I lose nothing thereby. (Something akin to a "you always get back more than you give" kind of mentality.) Even if people are ungrateful or lazy or mooching, that does not reflect back on me. As long as my "karma" is okay, it's all good.  I will always share because that's the kind of person I want to be. Generous and helpful. I leave it up to the receiver to decide what kind of person THEY want to be.  

That being said, I DO understand and acknowledge the need for people who  sell soap to have proprietary secrets and to keep those secrets. If  soapmaking is one's livelihood, then that's a whole 'nother ballgame. I  would just politely answer any competitor with an ingredients list, but  without the specifics. (Percentages, procedures, temps, techniques, etc)  _Those_ are the most important parts of making a good soap, IMO. The ingredients list is the least of one's worries!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 31, 2013)

I find the comparison slightly fallacious - If you want to recreate Gammy's bread, you would need all the information, not just what goes in - a recipe is more than just a list of what goes in.  It might have 10gms Cardamom seeds, but without knowing that she splits them then roasts them and finally grinds them up, you wouldn't make her bread.  

Likewise, the examples here are more than just people how know soaping and are looking for a little chat about ingredients.  They want everything spoon fed to them, process and amounts and so on - like you would need to really recreate the bread of your grand-mamma.  But whereas your family have a perfectly good reason to want the bread information, these people should buy the soap!

Now, if people want to make soap in general, I'd point them in the right direction gladly.  If they wanted to know how to make one of MY soaps, they'd have to go and learn for themselves what it is that makes my soap so good and then do it themselves - I wouldn't help someone to produce something that I want to sell to them.


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## Miz Jenny (Dec 31, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> "... Always got in my personal space and I had to keep backing up. She stared and her eyes never blinked...."
> 
> That sounds like a student I once had who had a type of high-functioning autism. He had awkward mannerisms, had difficulty reading social cues, and often was incredibly focused on a goal or idea to the point of obsession. You could describe him as a "nerd" or "geek" to an extreme degree, which is saying something because I am a card-carrying geek myself. I eventually learned I had to be, from my point of view, very blunt and borderline rude to communicate with him at times.
> 
> If Miz Jenny's "stalker" was like my student or had another type of mental disorder, then I can understand why the encounters were disturbing.



This describes her exactly! The last time she was in I had to pointedly turn my back on her. I could feel her staring a hole through my back but she finally left. I was a bit unnerved and it has haunted me because I have a very sound relationship with my customers. Hopefully, she won't be back.


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