# Can OptiPhen Plus be used to preserve plain water?



## aab1 (Aug 13, 2014)

I bought Optiphen Plus to preserve plain water but even at 1% and mixing it seems to keep staying as a separate layer that floats over the water just as oil would.

This has me thinking Optiphen Plus can only be used in emulsions of water and oil and not in plain water, is this right? If so, what's the most natural preservative that can preserve plain water? By the way the water is not for drinking.

Thanks


----------



## hmlove1218 (Aug 13, 2014)

I can't answer your question, but if you don't mine me asking, why are you wanting to preserve plain water? If you're buying distilled from the store, it should be fine (unopened) until the expiration date. Perhaps even later. The only reason water has an expiration date is because it starts to leech chemicals from the plastic.


----------



## aab1 (Aug 13, 2014)

I have a product that's basically essential oil floating on water, they are not emulsified and intentionally remain separated in the container. I'm trying to find the best most natural or least toxic preservative for this product. Would adding liquid soap to the water act as a preservative or make it spoil even faster? Would adding liquid soap allow the Optiphen Plus to remain emulsified in the water? I will eventually want to make a similar product that has a significant amount of liquid soap in the water (possibly 50% or more), would Optiphen Plus still separate in such a blend?

Thank you


----------



## Lindy (Aug 13, 2014)

Just water and essential oil doesn't require a preservative but as you are discovering they do not blend.  You would be better off doing this as a light emulsion to get the essential oils to blend.


----------



## aab1 (Aug 13, 2014)

Is there a natural way to emulsify them in a way that the liquid won't become white like milk? In any case it's really not necessary for them to be emulsified unless it would help with preservation but I think it would have the opposite effect.

Is it normal for Optiphen Plus to not mix with water? I still just have a puddle of it floating on top of the water even when used at 1%.

Thanks


----------



## Lindy (Aug 13, 2014)

Because there is no emulsification it isn't going to blend.  Something to think about is that since the EO is not blended properly into your product and is just floating there, there is the risk of someone being burned by the essential oils as you shouldn't be applying them neat which is basically what you have.


----------



## aab1 (Aug 13, 2014)

This is not to apply to skin, it is to then be mixed with iso alcohol by the buyer to then use as a scented electric shaver cleaning solution.


----------



## Lindy (Aug 13, 2014)

See I wouldn't be selling it without having the alcohol mixed into it because of the hazards of them deciding it smells so good they will just shake it and use it on their face.  It is an avoidable and not only could it hurt them but it could also create a lawsuit.


----------



## pamielynn (Aug 13, 2014)

Wouldn't adding the alcohol to the product preserve it?


----------



## Lindy (Aug 13, 2014)

Yes it would and it would create a safe product for the user


----------



## Meganmischke (Aug 13, 2014)

I don't believe you can sell a product with alcohol in it without some kind of license.  I could be wrong but I imagine there is some kind of restrictions.


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 13, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> Wouldn't adding the alcohol to the product preserve it?



It would, but as stated, it's not a product that required preserving in the first place.  The alcohol would help with other product issues though.


----------



## Lindy (Aug 13, 2014)

You are allowed to sell after-shave made with alcohol so there really isn't any difference until you are using vodka or some such thing.  But Rubbing Alcohol or denatured alcohol is allowed, at least in Canada.  However I do know that in the US you can get perfumers alcohol which is also allowed.  This could vary from state to state so I do recommend checking to make sure.  It can be mailed using ground transport only.


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 13, 2014)

Perfumer's alcohol uses denatured ethanol, too, far as I can tell.  Non-denatured ethanol is where the permits and transport issues become deep and thorny, because it can be consumed.  However:

Transport of hazardous materials is somewhat separate an issue, since TDG rules apply regardless of ethanol content.

I also found this http://www.creatingperfume.com/16ounceperfumersalcohol.aspx  which states "Users purchasing 5 gallons or more in a calendar year are *required* to  file for a permit with the Tax & Trade Bureau of the United  States. If you do not yet have a permit, we can still send you up to 5  Gallons of SDA 40b for testing purposes in a single calendar year. "

It's the initial purchase of the ethanol that requires the most licensing, vs the product although you are required to explain the useage in the application (or at least, we are, in the lab setting in which I'm familiar with EtOH permit and ordering headaches)


----------



## Lindy (Aug 13, 2014)

Thanks CanaDawn - great info...


----------



## aab1 (Aug 19, 2014)

I can't have alcohol in it as it severely limits my shipping options.

I just had an idea, my product contains a water based mix and an oil mix that are intentionally left seperate and non emulsified. If I mixed the OptiPhen Plus in the oil part instead would that work and would it prevent the water from going bad?

Otherwise what are other preservatives I could use in the water base that aren't too toxic?

Thanks


----------



## cgawlik (Aug 19, 2014)

In general, Optiphen and Optiphen ND are both paraben and formaldehyde free and, in fact, are broad spectrum preservatives. For oil based recipes, you'll want to use Optiphen ND and for water based, Optiphen.


This is from emails back and forth  between myself and Brambleberry support staff.. 
Hope it helps


----------



## aab1 (Aug 19, 2014)

What exactly does "water based" mean, is it water only and no oil, or mostly water and some oil emulsified in it? As I said Optiphen Plus does not mix in water at all, it just floats on top like oil would.

Would potassium sorbate in the water work to prevent it going bad?

Thanks


----------



## cgawlik (Aug 19, 2014)

Water based as I understand it is.. more water than oil. 
For my lotions which have more water than oils I can use orginal optiphen and be covered.  I don't know if the same applies for your purposes.  I would suggest doing more research or emailing with support staff from your supplier


----------



## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

aab1 said:


> What exactly does "water based" mean, is it water only and no oil, or mostly water and some oil emulsified in it? As I said Optiphen Plus does not mix in water at all, it just floats on top like oil would.
> 
> Would potassium sorbate in the water work to prevent it going bad?
> 
> Thanks


 
 Water based is meant to be used in emulsified products.


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 19, 2014)

Plain water won't "go bad" as long as it has nothing added into it that could go rancid or grow.


----------



## aab1 (Aug 19, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> Plain water won't "go bad" as long as it has nothing added into it that could go rancid or grow.



That's what I thought but I also thought it might be good to add a preservative just to be sure.

Technically there is oil added to the water (a blend of essential and mineral oil) but it's not emulsified and just floats on top of the water.

Would such a product need preservatives in either the oil or water part? Would adding potassium sorbate to the water part be good just to be safe? Would the oil blend need an antioxidant to prolong shelf life? I'd like this product to have at least a 1-2 year shelf life.

Thanks


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 19, 2014)

Mineral oil doesn't go bad either, far as I know as it's not got fatty acids to be oxidized and is a petroleum product.  Essential oils don't need to be preserved.  If you use appropriate aseptic techniques and so on, I would have said it didn't need preserving, but I'm not an expert on cosmetics preservative legislations, by any means.


----------



## aab1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Thanks. Is there any possible downsides to adding potassium sorbate to the water just to be safe? I read it needs a ph of 6 or less, what could I add to reduce the ph?

Thanks


----------



## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

You really, really need to emulsify this with a little bit of oils because those essential oils floating on top are dangerous and if someone were to get hurt by it that is grounds for a lawsuit as an avoidable hazard.


----------



## aab1 (Aug 19, 2014)

This product is neither for internal nor external use, it's to make a shaver cleaning solution, is it still a problem? Also, is there a way to emulsify them that is both entirely natural and will not turn the liquid white like milk? I was going to try polysorbate 20 until I read it really isn't natural.

Thanks


----------



## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

There is none that I know of.  Your hazard risk is that if they should decide they really love the scent that they decide to spritz with it.  Even shaking it is not going to mix those essential oils in and it's like putting neat essential oils on your skin.  The same thing is going to happen when cleaning the razor, the essentials are going to end up on the razor neat and risks having it applied to the face when shaving with the "cleaned" razor.  It is so not worth the lawsuit...


----------



## aab1 (Aug 19, 2014)

This is actually for a product I've been selling for years and am trying to improve it as sales are really picking up and I now sell several thousand dollars worth every month. The product is sold in heat sealed packets much like ketchup packets at fast food places so it's not in a spray bottle to be "spritzable". Once the buyer is ready to use it, the instructions say to empty the packet into a 500ml bottle of rubbing alcohol, the alcohol then allows both the water and oil based parts of my product to "homogenize" into a "single" liquid with no oil floating on top and the essential oil is then highly diluted when the product is mixed and ready to use. The final solution is then meant to refill the cleaning solution cartridge for the shaver's automatic self-cleaning base, it is not for "manual" use where it would at any time touch someone's skin unless accidentally spilled.

I agree there is still a risk of spilling it on your hands when transferring it to the alcohol bottle, but one of the improvements I have planned is to mix the essential oil with mineral oil to better lubricate the shaver, I was planning in diluting it at about a rate of 1:1 (for example 1 ml eo to 1 ml mo), is that enough to make it safe? In any case the essential oil makes up about 30% of the product by volume so there isn't much room for dilution (the water part can be reduced to make room for other ingredients like the mineral oil I will soon be adding to my new formula).

However I just realized my product is no more dangerous than EO bottles you can buy at the grocery store, so why would it be a risk for my product but not for EO bottles which are 100% EO?

Since this product is by extremely far my #1 seller (I sell 5400% more of this than I do soap) I want to make it the best and safest I can for my customers. Would adding warnings to avoid skin contact and wash thoroughly in case of contact be enough?

I know I hadn't explained what the product is until now, now that I explained it in more detail I'd like to know what I can do to prevent lawsuits and to ensure the longest shelf life possible (ideally at least 1-2 years).

Thanks


----------



## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

Thank you for explaining it better.  Yes if you put the warning to avoid skin contact until diluted would be a great way of doing it.  Personally I always worry about it when people buy neat essential oils without the knowledge to use them safely since the sales clerks are not trained aromatherapists.


----------



## aab1 (Aug 19, 2014)

Thanks, I will be updating my labels to add those warnings.

What about the preservative issue, would potassium sorbate in the water be a good idea and what could I use to get the ph down to the required 6 this preservative requires?

Thanks


----------



## Lindy (Aug 19, 2014)

Actually you don't need it with what you have in it...


----------



## aab1 (Aug 25, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Actually you don't need it with what you have in it...



I also plan to make a new formula for another self cleaning shaver brand but it uses a water based solution instead of alcohol. Would adding a large amount of natural liquid soap (around 25-50% soap) to the water cause it to need a preservative?

Thanks


----------



## Lindy (Aug 25, 2014)

No you would be fine with that as well.


----------

