# Shampoo & Conditioner?



## vance71975

Anyone know a good source for making your own shampoo and conditioner?

I mean from scratch by the way, just like we make soap only to end with a liquid shampoo and liquid conditioner. I have tried googling it and i am just not finding much.


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## lsg

Try swiftcraftymonkey's "Point of Interest" blog.  She has lots of information on making shampoos and coditioners.  She has a pdf book that you can buy with all that information and her recipes.  Here is a link to a really simple recipe for basic conditioner.  I have made it and it works well.

http://www.thesoapdish.com/hair-conditioner-formula.htm


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## vance71975

lsg said:
			
		

> Try swiftcraftymonkey's "Point of Interest" blog.  She has lots of information on making shampoos and coditioners.  She has a pdf book that you can buy with all that information and her recipes.  Here is a link to a really simple recipe for basic conditioner.  I have made it and it works well.
> 
> http://www.thesoapdish.com/hair-conditioner-formula.htm



Ok does anyone know a non-chemical way to do it, the info in that link and the ingredients used look about the same as the back of a suave bottle, i was looking for a process that is all natural like homemade soap, without all the unwanted chemical additives. But thank you for the link that was more info than i could find.


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## Genny

vance71975 said:
			
		

> Ok does anyone know a non-chemical way to do it, the info in that link and the ingredients used look about the same as the back of a suave bottle, i was looking for a process that is all natural like homemade soap, without all the unwanted chemical additives. But thank you for the link that was more info than i could find.



There is not a non-chemical way to do it.  Since water is a chemical and a big part in shampoo and conditioner.


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## vance71975

Genny said:
			
		

> vance71975 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok does anyone know a non-chemical way to do it, the info in that link and the ingredients used look about the same as the back of a suave bottle, i was looking for a process that is all natural like homemade soap, without all the unwanted chemical additives. But thank you for the link that was more info than i could find.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is not a non-chemical way to do it.  Since water is a chemical and a big part in shampoo and conditioner.
Click to expand...


Ok Ok Since we seem to want to be all super technical and smart assed about it instead of helpful, how bout this, No chemicals that do not Occur freely in nature or that are not completely used up in the process of making the shampoo. Like Lye is completely used up in the making of soap.

Seemed like the only thing Natural in that recipe was the Oil, everything else was chemical and im betting from the name ARTIFICIALLY MADE. 

Really what is there something wrong wanting to avoid as many chemicals in their products as possible? Hell i thought that was one of the main reasons most people made their own soap in the first place, hell if you want to load it down with chemicals why even bother why not just go to dollar tree and buy it cheaper than you can make it...

BTW you would be the only person i have ever met that considers water a chemical.... and yes i am well aware that everything is made up of elements and can technically be considered a chemical. By what seems to be your definition a dog or cat is a chemical because it is made up of elements as well. See i can be a smart ass too.


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## lsg

Vance, you aked for help and we tried to help you.  Sorry you took it the wrong way.  Soap does not appear naturally, it is the result of a chemical reaction.
If you take a look at the surfactants listed in the link I gave you, you will find that some of them are very eco friendly.  Think about it this way, olive oil comes from a process done by man, so does corn oil,  coconut oil, essential oils etc.


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## Genny

I wasn't being a smart ass, I'm just stating a fact.  

It would be very hard for us to help find you a recipe that you consider chemical free and natural since everyone's opinions differ on those terms.

Shampoos require surfactants to actually work, which in some people's opinion would be an unwanted chemical.  They also require preservatives, which there are no known proven "natural, chemical free" preservatives on the market.  


P.S.  I personally find nothing wrong with people trying to live greener and more "natural", but at the same time  you have to remember that many of the people that you're asking advice from and are getting advice from are people that make and sell these unnatural, chemically laden products to support their families.


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## Suisan2

Personally I find shampoo to be an incredibly unnatural product in and of itself. I haven't used it for years - -instead I "wash" my hair with conditioner.

All that lather makes my skin itch -- it's not the fault of the SLS's, as I use commercial soaps that have them without any trouble. But once a bottled shampoo gets on my scalp it's a horror show. 

Now that I've transitioned completely off shampoo, I don't have that much interest in finding a "natural" alternative. Until very, very recently most women wore their hair Up. I can only get my hair to stay up in a braid or bun if I don't have silicone on it. And I don't need bounce or body or shine once my hair's affixed to my head. 

(I just finished having a very long conversation about shampoo and conditioner-only cleansing with a good friend, so this topic's all fresh in my mind.) 

I think the qualities that we expect a commercial shampoo to deliver to our hair are much more modern than we think they are. Same with hair color. So in order to get modern results, I think to some extent we have to rely on modern chemical knowledge. I don't care if my waist length hair is shiny all the way to the tips because no one ever sees the tips anyway. But if I had a shorter cut, I'd go back to commercial shampoos and figure out a way to deal with the scalp problems. 

Not everything that's modern or "chemical" is bad.


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## judymoody

Vance, to answer your question, I assume you're interested in making shampoo along the lines of making CP soap.  There are many people who make CP shampoo bars - Chagrin Valley soaps is one such maker if you want to check out their site and see how they do it.  Generally shampoo bar recipes are high in stearic acid and feature high % of castor.

The problem with CP soap as shampoo is that the pH is too high and it roughens the hair cuticle and damages it.  This can be remedied, in part, by using an acidic rinse made from vinegar or lemon juice.  A minority of people can use CP shampoo successfully in their hair but most don't have good results.  Personally, it makes my hair look and feel like matted dirty straw.

I was initially skeptical upon finding Swift's site but if you give it a chance, you will find that she offers many "greener" alternatives.  So if you want to stay away from sulfates and use milder surfactants, she tells you how to do it.  If you don't like silicones, leave them out.  She also has good methodologies about how to make shampoo, conditioner, lotions, etc with respect to avoiding contamination, proper use of preservatives and the like.

My compromise it to make solid shampoo and conditioner bars using surfactants and emulsifiers.  They are more eco-friendly because you are using dry ingredients and don't have to transport water.  You also don't need plastic packaging.  I have been using my own hair products for a year and a half and my hair has never looked better.


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## vance71975

Genny said:
			
		

> I wasn't being a smart ass, I'm just stating a fact.
> 
> It would be very hard for us to help find you a recipe that you consider chemical free and natural since everyone's opinions differ on those terms.
> 
> Shampoos require surfactants to actually work, which in some people's opinion would be an unwanted chemical.  They also require preservatives, which there are no known proven "natural, chemical free" preservatives on the market.
> 
> 
> P.S.  I personally find nothing wrong with people trying to live greener and more "natural", but at the same time  you have to remember that many of the people that you're asking advice from and are getting advice from are people that make and sell these unnatural, chemically laden products to support their families.



Ok when i think chemical, i think something made in a lab by guys in white coats and is completely artificial.

If it occurs in nature and extracted by man that is fine with me, if it is made in a lab with artificial chemicals i want to avoid it.


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## fiddletree

First, water IS a chemical.  Period.  There is no way to argue around that one, because it is what it is.  Chemicals aren't necessarily man-made.  If you truly want to make something that is free of man-made chemicals, then you can't use soap either.  Lye is produced in a lab.  Many of the oils we soap with are extracted or afterwards treated with man made chemicals. 

So you see, soap isn't all that natural.  It's really not any less natural to use some of the greener, biodegradable surfactants.  Most of them are derived from plants, and are milder on the hair than soap.  Conditioner can't be made using 'natural' ingredients, by definition it is only a conditioner if it contains a cationic, which to my knowledge are all man made.  

This is all coming from someone who got into making my own soap and body products because I wanted to use more natural products.  After everything I learned (and am still learning) in the process, my aim is to use ingredients that are _as minimally processed as possible_, except when there is no other option, or if the more 'natural' ingredient isn't good for the body or illegal to use (in the EU many ingredients used in the US are restricted).  I personally have no problem at all using a sugar or coconut derived surfactant in my shampoo.  They are good for my hair, don't have creepy ingredients, and aren't_ too_ far from the natural source.

If you have a problem using surfactants, don't use them, but then you should also perhaps look at the other ingredients you use and hold them to the same standard.  I really do recommend reading swiftcraftymonkey's 'Point of Interest' blog.... I have learned so much from her blog and her ebooks.  I cut out a lot of the less-natural ingredients that aren't strictly necessary for a formulation (like silicones, for example), but have learned how to formulate, and which ingredients are necessary, and why.


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## vance71975

fiddletree said:
			
		

> First, water IS a chemical.



Many Scientists would contend and accurately so that water is an elemental compound not a chemical. As i said above if you carry it that far you can say cats, dogs,humans,apes,etc are all chemicals because they all have elements in them.

Definition of Chemical:	
Noun:A compound or substance that has been purified or prepared, *especially artificially.*

Can you technically say water is a chemical, yes *technically*. But if you get *technical* about it every single thing on the planet living or otherwise is a chemical Because every form of life and every non-living thing is made of of elements and compounds.

Do you consider flowers a chemical?
How bout trees?
What about Animals?

All of them are  *technically* chemicals because they are a *compound* of elements.

Hence why the very definition of chemical includes the phrase *especially artificially.*[/u][/i]


Btw Lye both NaOH and KOH can be made at home using naturally occurring substances. Wood ashes for one salt water for the other.

As i said i am not looking to avoid ALL chemicals, some are simply required like lye, but lie is also *USED UP* in the soap making process and not left in the finished product.

Pressing a nut or boiling the fat of an animal is hardly a "chemical process" as both can be done effectively without adding anything at all that is artificial. They are EXTRACTED by man not created by man.

That is my definition, If it is extracted by man with no added artificial chemical then i am fine with it, if they have to add hexane to extract the oils, then it isn't a Natural product because Hexane is man made and not naturally occurring in nature.


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## fiddletree

Ok, think what you want.  I'm a physicist with an extensive background in chemistry, and so that is my perspective, as a scientist.  

Many fats/oils can be obtained by pressing, but some are extracted using solvents (like pomace olive oil), or bleached and deodorized (too many to list).  There are ways to make surfactants at home.  And emulsifiers, and many other 'chemical' products we use. It just isn't practical, although some people do it.  Just like making lye at home isn't generally considered practical.  But, if you are pressing your own nuts, and making your own lye, I applaud your efforts to make soap as natural as possible.


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## vance71975

fiddletree said:
			
		

> Ok, think what you want.  I'm a physicist with an extensive background in chemistry, and so that is my perspective, as a scientist.
> 
> Many fats/oils can be obtained by pressing, but some are extracted using solvents (like pomace olive oil), or bleached and deodorized (too many to list).  There are ways to make surfactants at home.  And emulsifiers, and many other 'chemical' products we use. It just isn't practical, although some people do it.  Just like making lye at home isn't generally considered practical.  But, if you are pressing your own nuts, and making your own lye, I applaud your efforts to make soap as natural as possible.



A Nut Oil press is on the list of things to buy we have like 4 walnut trees lol. As is a hydrolysis set up to make my own lye, I am a BBQ'er so i always have Ashes around lol so that cover KOH.

I never said i thought a natural shampoo would be easy, but i will prefer if possible to keep everything in it Naturally plant extracted if at all possible.

What about Making a Liquid soap following a Shampoo Bar recipe? Just instead of Sodium Hydroxide Use Potassium Hydroxide and Follow the Hot Process for Liquid Soap, Maybe use a higher super fating % to make it extra moisturizing?

Or add Nature Herbal Extracts, Silk, etc? 

Something along those lines, and to Balance the pH from being so basic add some Ascorbic Acid(vitamin C which i can get cheap and in a form extracted naturally from fruit) or Citric Acid, both naturally extracted from a fruit source both would lower the pH and Both would act as a preservative.


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## fiddletree

As a general rule, true soap (whether made with KOH OR NOH) isn't great for hair.  The pH is too high and it can damage the hair.  That said, my hair isn't horrible with a CP 'shampoo' bar that I make, although I prefer to use my liquid surf based shampoo.  Some people have hair/scalp that does well with true soap, but not all, or even most.  If you follow with an ACV rinse it helps a lot.

If you add an acid to liquid soap, well I'm not sure how low you could actually get the pH without it doing something wonky to the integrity of the soap itself. I haven't tried to lower my pH below 9, so I can't tell you if it would work. You could use a CP recipe for LS, but you want different properties in a LS than in something solid, because hardness is no longer an issue, or even a factor at all.  The book "Natural Liquid Soaps" has recipes for liquid soap shampoos in it, and is worth a read.  Oh, and silk is awesome in shampoos!  Unless you have fine, flyaway hair, then it is better to use something with a higher molecular weight like wheat or oat protein.

You should note, though, that if you do lower the pH below 9, and if you add any plant extracts of any kind, you should add a preservative.  Citric acid and vit C don't act as full preservatives, and you could still get icky stuff growing inside.  Personally, I usually use Geogard Ultra as my preservative.  It is EcoCert certified, and doesn't have 'scary' chemicals in it.  It's as close to a natural preservative (that works) as you can buy, really.  There is also Naticide, which is extracted from essential oils, but it is quite pricy and I've heard it fails challenge tests for some.


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## vance71975

fiddletree said:
			
		

> As a general rule, true soap (whether made with KOH OR NOH) isn't great for hair.  The pH is too high and it can damage the hair.  That said, my hair isn't horrible with a CP 'shampoo' bar that I make, although I prefer to use my liquid surf based shampoo.  Some people have hair/scalp that does well with true soap, but not all, or even most.  If you follow with an ACV rinse it helps a lot.
> 
> If you add an acid to liquid soap, well I'm not sure how low you could actually get the pH without it doing something wonky to the integrity of the soap itself. I haven't tried to lower my pH below 9, so I can't tell you if it would work. You could use a CP recipe for LS, but you want different properties in a LS than in something solid, because hardness is no longer an issue, or even a factor at all.  The book "Natural Liquid Soaps" has recipes for liquid soap shampoos in it, and is worth a read.  Oh, and silk is awesome in shampoos!  Unless you have fine, flyaway hair, then it is better to use something with a higher molecular weight like wheat or oat protein.
> 
> You should note, though, that if you do lower the pH below 9, and if you add any plant extracts of any kind, you should add a preservative.  Citric acid and vit C don't act as full preservatives, and you could still get icky stuff growing inside.  Personally, I usually use Geogard Ultra as my preservative.  It is EcoCert certified, and doesn't have 'scary' chemicals in it.  It's as close to a natural preservative (that works) as you can buy, really.  There is also Naticide, which is extracted from essential oils, but it is quite pricy and I've heard it fails challenge tests for some.



what about this for a preservative? Its Also Acidic so it will help and lower the pH.  I would Aim to drop the pH to around neutral. Maybe slightly acidic like 6.5 or so.

http://www.soap-making-resource.com/ros ... resin.html


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## fiddletree

No, ROE is an antioxidant, which is very different from a preservative, although many people get them confused.  An antioxidant retards oxidation of oils, which makes them go rancid.  A preservative keeps away bacteria, fungi, and mold that can grow in your product.  Vitamin E and grapefruit seed extract are also antioxidants, not preservatives.  If your pH is under 9, unless you keep the soap in the fridge and use it within a week, I would definitely use a preservative.  Seriously nasty, and potentially dangerous, stuff can grow there.

I know preservatives sound bad, but not all of them are.  They keep us safe from nasty infections, and let our products last longer so that we can enjoy them more.  Some of them, like the ones I listed in my last post, are pretty darn close to being natural, by your definition, if not completely (naticide).


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## vance71975

fiddletree said:
			
		

> No, ROE is an antioxidant, which is very different from a preservative, although many people get them confused.  An antioxidant retards oxidation of oils, which makes them go rancid.  A preservative keeps away bacteria, fungi, and mold that can grow in your product.  Vitamin E and grapefruit seed extract are also antioxidants, not preservatives.  If your pH is under 9, unless you keep the soap in the fridge and use it within a week, I would definitely use a preservative.  Seriously nasty, and potentially dangerous, stuff can grow there.
> 
> I know preservatives sound bad, but not all of them are.  They keep us safe from nasty infections, and let our products last longer so that we can enjoy them more.  Some of them, like the ones I listed in my last post, are pretty darn close to being natural, by your definition, if not completely (naticide).



Ill do some looking


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## pink-north

fiddletree said:
			
		

> No, ROE is an antioxidant, which is very different from a preservative, although many people get them confused.  An antioxidant retards oxidation of oils, which makes them go rancid.  A preservative keeps away bacteria, fungi, and mold that can grow in your product.  Vitamin E and grapefruit seed extract are also antioxidants, not preservatives.  If your pH is under 9, unless you keep the soap in the fridge and use it within a week, I would definitely use a preservative.  Seriously nasty, and potentially dangerous, stuff can grow there.
> 
> I know preservatives sound bad, but not all of them are.  They keep us safe from nasty infections, and let our products last longer so that we can enjoy them more.  Some of them, like the ones I listed in my last post, are pretty darn close to being natural, by your definition, if not completely (naticide).



Thank you for your statement.


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## vance71975

fiddletree said:
			
		

> No, ROE is an antioxidant, which is very different from a preservative, although many people get them confused.  An antioxidant retards oxidation of oils, which makes them go rancid.  A preservative keeps away bacteria, fungi, and mold that can grow in your product.  Vitamin E and grapefruit seed extract are also antioxidants, not preservatives.  If your pH is under 9, unless you keep the soap in the fridge and use it within a week, I would definitely use a preservative.  Seriously nasty, and potentially dangerous, stuff can grow there.
> 
> I know preservatives sound bad, but not all of them are.  They keep us safe from nasty infections, and let our products last longer so that we can enjoy them more.  Some of them, like the ones I listed in my last post, are pretty darn close to being natural, by your definition, if not completely (naticide).



I may just Opt for Adding a few Oils and herbs known to have Anti-bacterial, anti-microbial,and anti-fungal properties. Which would work and still remain natural.


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## fiddletree

vance71975 said:
			
		

> fiddletree said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, ROE is an antioxidant, which is very different from a preservative, although many people get them confused.  An antioxidant retards oxidation of oils, which makes them go rancid.  A preservative keeps away bacteria, fungi, and mold that can grow in your product.  Vitamin E and grapefruit seed extract are also antioxidants, not preservatives.  If your pH is under 9, unless you keep the soap in the fridge and use it within a week, I would definitely use a preservative.  Seriously nasty, and potentially dangerous, stuff can grow there.
> 
> I know preservatives sound bad, but not all of them are.  They keep us safe from nasty infections, and let our products last longer so that we can enjoy them more.  Some of them, like the ones I listed in my last post, are pretty darn close to being natural, by your definition, if not completely (naticide).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I may just Opt for Adding a few Oils and herbs known to have Anti-bacterial, anti-microbial,and anti-fungal properties. Which would work and still remain natural.
Click to expand...


Actually, that won't work, not at all.  Not a bit.  But it's your own health you are risking, so do what you want.


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## Kwpgrooming

I thought when making soap in general, the end ph is suppose to be neutral.


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## new12soap

Kwpgrooming said:
			
		

> I thought when making soap in general, the end ph is suppose to be neutral.



No, I am sorry but that is not correct. Finished bar soap has a ph somewhere between 9 and 10.5

Perhaps you misunderstood some of the terminology for liquid soap when they talk about neutralizing the lye? It can certainly be very confusing.


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## sudbubblez

There isn't a "natural" way to make shampoo like what you can buy in the store because bottled shampoo is a detergent.  Detergents are synthetic.  Shampoo was originally created because soap didn't lather in hard water but detergents do.

You can use all natural ingredients to make something like shampoo, perhaps a liquid soap and use natural ingriedients with innate preservative and antioxidant properties, but it might be something that should be kept in the refrigerator or made frequently in small portions.  Its the water required to make the stuff liquid that is going to promote the rapid spoilage.


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## jnl

Geogard has the same stuff in it that is in acne creams (salicylic acid), and is very irritating to people with sensitive skin.  For me at least.  Its such a shame there is no preservative that is natural and not irritating but still broad spectrum.



fiddletree said:


> (truncated...)  Personally, I usually use Geogard Ultra as my preservative.  It is EcoCert certified, and doesn't have 'scary' chemicals in it.  It's as close to a natural preservative (that works) as you can buy, really.  There is also Naticide, which is extracted from essential oils, but it is quite pricy and I've heard it fails challenge tests for some.


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