# Castille Soap - ???



## goteeguy (Nov 30, 2013)

OK, so I always thought that Castile Soap's were strictly Olive Oil, Water, and Lye.  But I keep reading all over the internet that as long as a soap uses only non-animal fats that it also qualifies as Castile.  This doesn't sit well with me.

I'm pretty certain there were no Coconut Oil, Shea Butter, Cocoa Butter, Olive Oil, Hemp Seed Oil, Goat's Milk, Oatmeal, and Honey soaps historically found in the Castile region of Spain.  I've never been there -- but just a hunch.

I've also read that people often differentiate between "true" Castille soaps by capitalizing the "C", while other soaps with mixed fats are referred to as castile with a lower case "c".  This seems to be a very fine distinction, one which I am certain is lost on non-soaper's, and seems to strip all significance from the original meaning.  Am I being too much of a purist or is the world just screwing with me?


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## Nevada (Nov 30, 2013)

<deleted>


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## goteeguy (Nov 30, 2013)

Um... yeah... ... not so helpful...
(like I never thought to Google this 4,000 times already)

Even following your link to Google brought up one link that stated that Castile soap was originally made with Olive Oil and Laurel Oil, while another link stated it was made with Olive Oil and animal fats.

Hence my confusion and original post...

Maybe someone else can chime in on this instead.


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## Obsidian (Nov 30, 2013)

Unfortunately, there is no definitive answer to your question. As you've seen, castile means different things to different people. As a purist, to me castile means 100% olive oil, water and lye. Even the addition of milk will make me label the soap bastile. Adding Laurel to the castile makes it Aleppo soap.

For the general consumer, its not near as important and many people don't know the difference nor do they care. When I explain to people what castile is, they usually look at me like I've got rocks in my head and am being too "picky" about ingredients.

I'm the same way with African black soap. I see so many dark soaps mislabeled as African soap, it just drives me crazy. I refuse to buy any products from people who mislabel castile or black soap as I feel its dishonest and done out of greed.


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## smeetree (Nov 30, 2013)

Does this mean Dr. Bronners is no good?


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## Obsidian (Nov 30, 2013)

I wouldn't say its no good, I just feel its false advertising. If you like it, then by all means, use it. I bought some Dr.B's expecting it to be a gentle OO soap and it dries me out something terrible. Taught me to always read labels, even on popular well likes brands.


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## smeetree (Nov 30, 2013)

I've been using it for shampoos, combining it with coconut milk and almond oil. My hair hasn't been dry at all. I'd say the opposite. I don't need conditioner anymore. Maybe it just depends on the person and their hair type.
(I hoarded some in bulk, so maybe I'm in denial)


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## boyago (Dec 1, 2013)

goteeguy said:


> Um... yeah... ... not so helpful...
> (like I never thought to Google this 4,000 times already)
> 
> Even following your link to Google brought up one link that stated that Castile soap was originally made with Olive Oil and Laurel Oil, while another link stated it was made with Olive Oil and animal fats.
> ...



Well soap wasn't being made in Europe till after it was imported from what we now call the middle east where the soaps were being made from a mix of bay laurel oil and olive oils.  So when it was reinvented Europe side they dropped the Laurel and were making it from mostly just olive oil.  This became common and soap became popular and people started giving credit to the Castile region for soap in general.  Olives and olive oil had a big market and were available so they used that.  Not sure why they dropped the Laurel oil since the Greeks and Romans revered the laurel tree for so long but now when olive and laurel oils are mixed to make soap the call it Aleppo soap since there are apparently allot of laurel trees still in the region. But the mix was the first soap brought and what everybody was trying emulate.  That's just a recap of some of the stuff I've read but I'm sure a more scholarly type of soapaphile could break it down better for you.  It's mostly something people like to go back and forth about.  I'm betting if you were a soap maker in the Castile region circa 1550 and you figured out you could put some goats milk in your soap you think you were king tits and get huffy if somebody said your soap wasn't "Castile" enough. So take it how you like it.  Seems like one of those "that's not "whatever" enough" to carry a title kind of argument.  Bastille soap on the other hand needs to be made with 65% OO and 35% Palm oil.  No Exceptions. Ever.

ps I only use "Castile" with my soaps if it's 100% OO without any shenanigans. Also "Aleppo" sounds way sexier and looks cooler but unless you have a friend in Turkey or want to import it by the metric ton it's hard to get the laurel oil.


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## goteeguy (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies... it's disappointing how the term "Castile" gets thrown around without much thought these days, and redefined to fit individual marketing goals.  To me, it will always be 100% Olive Oil, Water, and Lye.

@ boyago:  I've never seen strick guidelines re: Bastille soap, especially with it being made with only 65% OO and 35% Palm oil.  I know others on this forum have a much more relaxed approach to this term as well.  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=12058

I guess the best practice is to drop the fancy labels, and just look at the ingredients to be sure you know what you're buying.  I suppose I was just hopeful that, as a soaping community, we would have standardized our terminology by now.


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## boyago (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm sorry my sarcasm didn't come through, I should work on that or use italics or something.  I remember Bastille by thinking of "Bastardized Castile" it's any OO heavy soap.


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## smeetree (Dec 1, 2013)

Do you guys have pure castile soap brands you recommend? Good quality at a good price. I've been using Bronners but now I want to try something that is pure OO.


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## AngelMomma (Dec 1, 2013)

I have never seen a pure olive oil castile for sale anywhere around here.  I have always wanted to try a 100% olive oil bar that has been cured for 12+months.  I do not view a bar as Castile unless it is Olive Oil, Water and Lye.  I would never tell anyone that one of my bars was a castile unless it was made with those 3 ingredients only.  Period.


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## boyago (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm gonna start a personal tradition of making a big batch of 100% pure Castile on New Years not to be touched till the next.  My 6 month Castile is super nice.


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## houseofwool (Dec 1, 2013)

boyago said:


> I'm gonna start a personal tradition of making a big batch of 100% pure Castile on New Years not to be touched till the next.  My 6 month Castile is super nice.



i have a bastardized Castile that I am absolutely loving even though it's only about four months old.  I replaced the water with beer and added honey to it, but otherwise it's 100% olive oil.


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## judymoody (Dec 1, 2013)

100% OO Castille probably isn't sold commercially because it takes forever to cure and it wouldn't be commercially viable for it to sit around for months in a warehouse until point of sale.

I have some that is nearly 2 years old and it is still slimy as all get out.  I'm not a fan.  Give me a nice Bastille (I like 80% OO/20% CO) any day.


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## Obsidian (Dec 1, 2013)

I bought a bar of castile that is over a year old and I don't really care for it either. It is mild and makes my skin feel soft but I can't stand the slimy lather and stale oil smell.
I made a high OO liquid soap and it doesn't have very good lather. As far as liquid goes, you are better off with a bastile. If you like bronners, then use it. The only issue I have with it is there is too much coconut oil in it and it dries my skin.


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## LanaBanana (Dec 1, 2013)

There is an all olive oil bar soap from "Kiss My Face". I can't remember if it is marketed as castille but it is at my local health food store and in the small natural bath products section of my grocery store. Don't know how it compares to handmade.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## goteeguy (Dec 1, 2013)

@ boyago:  LOL!  I must have missed the sarcasm in your previous post, thanks for clearing that up.  :-D  As it turns out, I do make a lot of Bastille soaps.  Bastard + Castile = Bastile... Priceless!

I'm not one for needing a lot of bubbles, and am really just wanting to make a good moisturizing bar for the winter.  My skin is awfully dry already...  I think I'll do a true Castile bar and see how it turns out.  I I've waited for 2yrs before drinking my homemade wine, so waiting 1yr before using the soap shouldn't be too hard.  (I hope...)


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## Skatergirl46 (Dec 1, 2013)

goteeguy said:


> I'm not one for needing a lot of bubbles, and am really just wanting to make a good moisturizing bar for the winter.  My skin is awfully dry already...  I think I'll do a true Castile bar and see how it turns out.  I I've waited for 2yrs before drinking my homemade wine, so waiting 1yr before using the soap shouldn't be too hard.  (I hope...)



I made a Bastille recently for that ^ same reason and though it's a bit young still, I am loving the little end piece I have in my shower. It's really helping with the winter dryness.


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## Yooper (Dec 1, 2013)

I have a 14 month old castile that is awesome.  It's definitely gentle, and the bar is hard.  It really is a great soap, and I like it a lot.  

Otherwise, I make mostly bastile for the bubbles and the feel of it.

I'm a firm believer that castille soap is 100% olive oil for the oils.  That's it.  Bastille is what I call anything else.


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## Obsidian (Dec 1, 2013)

Curious, how much OO do you all need to consider a soap a bastile? OO is always my main oil, my base recipe is 61% OO and I don't consider it a bastile.


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## AngelMomma (Dec 1, 2013)

So for those of you that have made a 100% Olive Oil soap...........which kind of olive oil did you use.  I see that some of you like it and some hate it.  I wonder if the type of oil may have anything to do with that.  Probably not.  Its probably just personal preference.  But I am curious none the less.  I use just plain Olive Oil.  Not Pomace, Virgin or Extra Virgin.


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## Obsidian (Dec 1, 2013)

I've used extra light and virgin, only difference is price and color. If I ever make more castile, I will use pomace.


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## boyago (Dec 1, 2013)

Most of my soaps have been high OO content and I either buy what ever is on sale, typically EVOO but I also use use the Organic EVOO from  Essentials Wholesale and Labs if I'm getting stuff there anyway.  I'll have to take some samples with me for my next shower to test the difference head to head.


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## Lin (Dec 1, 2013)

I believe castile is only 100% olive oil, and I've actually gone on so many rants about that fact.... The Dr Bronners especially irritates me because thats so popular and so now everyone thinks THATS what castile is. 

After reading a post here, I'm going to be making a castile soap for next years christmas presents lol. My boyfriend and I were going to make a castile and leave it for 6 months, but when I read someone did that last year I thought it was a really good idea. With castile though I'd never thought too much into the liquid, and that only water would be castile. So I've been thinking about making a 100% olive oil soap with pumpkin for full water for next christmas. I'm still batting around ideas though.


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## boyago (Dec 1, 2013)

Lin said:


> I believe castile is only 100% olive oil, and I've actually gone on so many rants about that fact.... The Dr Bronners especially irritates me because thats so popular and so now everyone thinks THATS what castile is.




How about Kirk's "Coco Castile" Ingredients: Coconut soap...


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## Obsidian (Dec 1, 2013)

At least Kirks has a little blurb on the label that historically castile was made with olive oil but nowdays, any all vegetable oil soap is called castile.


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## goteeguy (Dec 1, 2013)

Really?  "Coco Castile"?  That's just crazy...  :crazy:  I now blame Kirks for the downfall of society!


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## boyago (Dec 1, 2013)

"At least Kirks has a little blurb on the label that historically castile was made with olive oil"

Didn't notice that.  There I go with my unfounded condemnations...

"Really?  "Coco Castile"?  That's just crazy...  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I now blame Kirks for the downfall of society! "

Dogs and cats LIVING TOGETHER!


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## Obsidian (Dec 1, 2013)

Its possible the blurb is on their website, I went there trying to find out what scent their "castile" is. Kirks is one of the only soaps I still buy and it mostly so I can smell it or make it into laundry paste since I'm too lazy to make 100% CO soap myself.


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## Kleine Teufel (Dec 2, 2013)

The hospital uses a baby soap that is castille, 100% coconut oil.


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## dixiedragon (Dec 2, 2013)

I agree with you, but it's not a term that has been defined by the FDA, so people can call any kind of soap "castile" that they want to. When I make my soap I will label it "Castille - 100% Olive Oil".


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## Tienne (Dec 2, 2013)

Obsidian said:


> Curious, how much OO do you all need to consider a soap a bastile? OO is always my main oil, my base recipe is 61% OO and I don't consider it a bastile.



To me a Castile is 100% OO, water and lye and a Bastile is 72% or above OO, and "whatever" for the rest.

Why 72% should be the cutting off point, I have absolutely no idea, but I just assumed that there was a "rule" or tradition that made it so. Some even advertise their soaps as being with 72% and you can even get soap stamps that say 72%, so I just assumed that that precise percentage gave the soap some super duper magical qualities that can't be explained by reason or soapcalc, but just "are". Who knows? Not me. 

Anything below 72% OO would then just be.... soap?  LOL


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## Dennis (Dec 2, 2013)

Thank goodness for the purists in a world where marketing and polls seem to dominate.


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## AngelMomma (Dec 2, 2013)

TRUE Purists are an OCD persons dream!    If I didn't make my own soap I would want to be sure to get to know any soapmaker I bought from.......because obviously everyone defines things differently.

This became very clear to me the other day when I went to check out a local source. I thought I would be able to buy a 5 gal bucket of coconut oil there.  But when they brought it out, the label had a bunch of additives in the ingredients.....even an "Anti-foaming" agent.  To me coconut is the last oil that would need preserving unless they were using a very low grade.  And "anti-foaming".......well I add coconut oil because I WANT bubbling!  LOL!!!  They told me that they have been selling quite a few buckets to soapers.  I just shook my head and said "I can't".  I ordered from Soapers Choice.  Maybe that makes me a "snotty" soaper......if so, so be it.  I have to be confident in what goes into my soap.  We make our soap so we don't have to have any possibility of unnecessary additives. My girl with skin issues certainly doesn't need any help with unknown things adding to her issues.

Sorry for the rant!!! :silent:


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## dixiedragon (Dec 2, 2013)

boyago said:


> I'm gonna start a personal tradition of making a big batch of 100% pure Castile on New Years not to be touched till the next. My 6 month Castile is super nice.


 
I love this idea! I am going to make a big batch now and give it out next Christmas, maybe with "100% Olive Oil - aged 1 year" on the label.

I don't love the olive oil smell so I will probably scent it with lavender, though.


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## dixiedragon (Dec 2, 2013)

AngelMomma said:


> TRUE Purists are an OCD persons dream!  If I didn't make my own soap I would want to be sure to get to know any soapmaker I bought from.......because obviously everyone defines things differently.
> 
> This became very clear to me the other day when I went to check out a local source. I thought I would be able to buy a 5 gal bucket of coconut oil there. But when they brought it out, the label had a bunch of additives in the ingredients.....even an "Anti-foaming" agent. To me coconut is the last oil that would need preserving unless they were using a very low grade. And "anti-foaming".......well I add coconut oil because I WANT bubbling! LOL!!!
> Sorry for the rant!!! :silent:


 
Coconut oil is often used for frying, popping popcorn, etc, so an anti foaming agent would make sense. but not for a soaper!

I know a lot of soapers add ROE to their soap as a preservative, but I too like my soap sort of "minimal". I don't add salt or sugar or sodium lactate, etc.


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## Numbers (Dec 2, 2013)

I make 100% olive oil Castile for my little sister. She has all kinds of skin allergies and that is the only kind she uses. Sometimes I add oatmeal and honey...she seems to like it. A few months ago I showed her how to make it herself. She did everything but measure out the lye. The poor girl's hands were shaking so bad I had to do it for her. When she was making her soap she mentioned that she liked the smell if lemon so I let her add a little FO to the batch. Still have a few more months to go to see how her skin will like scented soap. She wears perfumes and body sprays so I think she'll be okay. It's mainly coconut oil she has a reaction too... Anyway back to the subject... I use regular olive oil for my soap making. I don't really like how EVOO soaps.


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## neeners (Dec 3, 2013)

Tienne said:


> To me a Castile is 100% OO, water and lye and a Bastile is 72% or above OO, and "whatever" for the rest.
> 
> Why 72% should be the cutting off point, I have absolutely no idea, but I just assumed that there was a "rule" or tradition that made it so. Some even advertise their soaps as being with 72% and you can even get soap stamps that say 72%, so I just assumed that that precise percentage gave the soap some super duper magical qualities that can't be explained by reason or soapcalc, but just "are". Who knows? Not me.
> 
> Anything below 72% OO would then just be.... soap? LOL


 

I was reading on another thread here that the 72% could mean the percentage of oils in the total soap recipe (i.e. amt of oil compared to oil+water+lye), which equals to about 72% in soapcalc.....


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## Tienne (Dec 3, 2013)

Okay! While it does sound really plausible, I can't really get that to fit. I fiddled around on soapcalc for a while and the closest I could  get to a soap+lye+water ratio that fit was 100% OO at 5% SF and a 2:1  water:lye ratio, BUT the numbers were just a teensy bit off and I just  couldn't fiddle my way to getting the numbers to fit _*exactly*_.  If folks are going to have soap stamps made that say 72% and not 72.1  or 71.9 then being the stickler that I am I would expect the numbers to  fit exactly. 

So I went searching and here's what I came up  with. A Castile is, as we probably mostly all agree on, made using only  OO, water and lye. (It's spelled with only one "l" officially, because it's named after a Spanish town.)

A Bastile, is supposedly "unofficially" 90% OO and just one  other oil, that oil being either Castor or Coconut. (That would make  sense. It's very close to being a Castile, without actually being one,  so the name bastard Castile fits with that.)  In more recent times, it has though come to describe any soap with _mostly_ OO and a blend of other oils for the rest.

A 72% OO soap is called a Savon de Marseille or Marseille soap!  According to French law (oooh la la!) any soap labeled as a Marseille  soap *must *contain a *minimum* of 72% OO, Copra Oil (?) or Palm oil and have no  fragrance or colour added. (I don't know what Copra Oil is, I've never  heard of it and again, why is exactly 72% the cutting off point?? Back to square one!) Anyway, the soaps are usually cut into cubes. Here's some more;

"The first recipe for Marseille soap can be found in the 1751  Encyclopédie by Diderot and d'Alembert. By French law, any soap called  "Marseille" must be made with a minimum of 72% vegetable oil and have no  fragrance or colour added to it. Soap is made by mixing oil, water and  soda and boiling them in huge caldrons for 6 or 7 days. At that time,  the soap acquires a violet scent. When olive oil is used, the paste  shows a green coloration; when other vegetable oils are used, the paste  is yellow-beige. The mixture is then placed in low basins and left to  dry for about two weeks when it is ready to be cut and stamped, either  by hand or by machine."

So going by that, if a soap doesn't comply with those rules, I suppose a  72% (or above) OO soap could rightly be considered to be a bastard Marseille... or  a Barseille Soap! (Haha! How many think that name would catch on? LOL! )  

That's all I got!  

Edit: A 100% OO soap at 5% SF and a H20:lye ratio of 2:1 makes OO 71,85528% of the recipe. Fiddling with the SF and H20:lye ratio just gives multiples after the decimal on those values instead. (If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit.)


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## Obsidian (Dec 3, 2013)

Copra is another name for coconut oil.


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## Tienne (Dec 3, 2013)

That makes sense! I learn something every day. Thanks Obsidian.


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## MoonBath (Dec 3, 2013)

boyago said:


> Also "Aleppo" sounds way sexier and looks cooler but unless you have a friend in Turkey or want to import it by the metric ton it's hard to get the laurel oil.



FIRST WITCH
A sailor's wife had chestnuts in her lap,
And munch'd, and munch'd, and munch'd:--
'Give me,' quoth I:
'Aroint thee, witch!' the rump-fed ronyon cries.
Her husband's to Aleppo gone, master o' th' Tiger;. 
But in a sieve I'll thither sail,. 
And like a rat without a tail,. 
I'll do, I'll do, and I'll do.

_Macbeth, Act I sc. iii_


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## goteeguy (Dec 3, 2013)

Are you talking dirty???  LOL!


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## boyago (Dec 4, 2013)

MoonBath said:


> FIRST WITCH
> A sailor's wife had chestnuts in her lap,
> And munch'd, and munch'd, and munch'd:--
> 'Give me,' quoth I:
> ...



 Othello
...

And say besides, that in Aleppo once,
  Where a malignant and a turban'd Turk
  Beat a Venetian and traduced the state,
  I took by the throat the circumcised dog,
  And smote him, thus.


Othello V, ii


Awl snap, we gettin all poet on this soap yo!


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## goteeguy (Dec 4, 2013)

boyago said:


> Awl snap, we gettin all poet on this soap yo!


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## Jencat (Dec 4, 2013)

Tienne said:


> So going by that, if a soap doesn't comply with those rules, I suppose a  72% (or above) OO soap could rightly be considered to be a bastard Marseille... or  a Barseille Soap! (Haha! How many think that name would catch on? LOL! )



LOL!  I like it.


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## neeners (Dec 31, 2013)

Tienne said:


> Okay! While it does sound really plausible, I can't really get that to fit. I fiddled around on soapcalc for a while and the closest I could get to a soap+lye+water ratio that fit was 100% OO at 5% SF and a 2:1 water:lye ratio, BUT the numbers were just a teensy bit off and I just couldn't fiddle my way to getting the numbers to fit _*exactly*_. If folks are going to have soap stamps made that say 72% and not 72.1 or 71.9 then being the stickler that I am I would expect the numbers to fit exactly.


 
I agree, the numbers aren't exact, but...think of it from the perspective of hundreds of years ago when Castile was first made and perfected.  they probably didn't have digital scales and soapcalcs like we do now.  they probably had a 72% benchmark as the amt of oil.


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## Tienne (Dec 31, 2013)

No, they didn't have the scales like we have, but that's irrelevant. Don't forget that  the 72% isn't a Castile benchmark at all, but a _Marseille_ benchmark.   That being the case, it's pretty easy to make a (or any) Marseille  recipe with 72% olive and whatever for the rest. (The 72% just has to be the amount of OO of total oils and not of the total recipe, as the "get-the-numbers-to-fit" _Castile_ suggestion was all about.)


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## hlee (Dec 31, 2013)

So I am still confused after reading this thread.
 Any additives would change a 100% OO soap to a bastille?


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## Lin (Dec 31, 2013)

hlee said:


> So I am still confused after reading this thread.
> Any additives would change a 100% OO soap to a bastille?



I believe that depends on the individual you ask. But any other oils would change it to a bastile. 

For example I made castile soap recently and didn't use water for my liquid, I used pumpkin for one and greek yogurt for the other. So I consider them to be a pumpkin castile and a greek yogurt castile. However theres a thread up about castile for the new year, making it now to use next year... And most individuals are discussing adding other oils such as 5% castor oil in with the OO. If its 5% castor oil, its not castile any longer. Castile is only 100% olive oil. 

And as you can see in this thread, there are individuals who believe castile is only 100% olive oil, water, and lye. So they would say the soap I made was not castile. I disagree on this point. And there are individuals who say if its high in olive oil percentage, or only vegetable oils its castile... My personal opinion is it MUST be 100% olive oil and if you have additives to list them as "x" castile to verify it is not a "pure" castile.


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