# Best quality ingredients, RBD, organic... questions.



## MrDurden (Oct 3, 2014)

I've been making soap for a number of years now, but I'm wanting increase the quality of my ingredients so I can say with confidence I make the best soap I possibly can. 

My recipe includes olive, hemp, palm, coconut, and castor oils. 

I will be apply for a non-GMO verified label soon and that's not of concern with the oil I use. But organic? I don't ever intend to get a USDA certified organic label myself. I don't want to give the USDA money for me doing the right thing. Oregon Tilth I would like to peruse though.

I'm considering switching my palm and coconut to organic. I have not seen organic olive pomice though. I was planning on changing to that soon in stead of the extra virgin I use now. 

I'm a small enough operation that I only buy by the gallon or 5 gallon sizes. But getting close to needing 55 gallon drums. And with the math I've done, the oil price is about half as much when you buy that much. So that might be the best time to switch to organic ingredients. 

Palm is an issue as well due to deforestation. But the oil I use is RSPO-certified. But I would like to look into them a little closer. I've heard issues with them (ya know how everyone points fingers)...

Also, what exactly is RBD? I know what it stands for, and I know they don't use actual bleach. What are they doing to it though? And would raw be a better option 

/I realize I'm kind of rambling here... Just wanting some input on this topic.


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## Meganmischke (Oct 4, 2014)

I don't know if it is possible to have organic pomace oil since it is solvent extracted.  Rbd stands for refined bleached deodorized I believe.  Good luck


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## MrDurden (Oct 4, 2014)

Meganmischke said:


> I don't know if it is possible to have organic pomace oil since it is solvent extracted.  Rbd stands for refined bleached deodorized I believe.  Good luck



It would depend on what solvent is used. But that is a good point. I don't think I want to use this stuff anyway if I'm looking for top quality. I still can't find olive oil cheaper than Costco. I might upgrade to their organic oil. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_pomace_oil

Yes, that's what RBD stands for. But I'm curious as to what they are physically doing to it.


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## MrDurden (Oct 5, 2014)

No input on this? 

Is this not something other soap makers think about? Making a top quality product with the best ingredients possible?


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## Meganmischke (Oct 5, 2014)

Most of my soap is made with lard, oo, and co. I do use refined co because the price of virgin is too much for me to justify for wash off products.  Your priorities with quality are whatever you make them. I know what I make use the best quality within reason.


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## Missmoneypenny (Oct 5, 2014)

Megan do you sell your soaps? I don't but ugh to one day. I find beef tallow can make a great bar,but worry an animal fat might put off potential customers.


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## shunt2011 (Oct 5, 2014)

The use of animal fats will only depend on your market.  You could also have non animal fat soaps to reach a larger group of customers.  I have found that not a lot of folks even read the labels for ingredients.  I did make soap with lard, it makes an amazing soap but for some reason switched.  I make a facial soap for myself with lard.


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## MrDurden (Oct 5, 2014)

I make vegan-friendly products (with the exception of the honey/oats soap I use to make) for that reason of having a larger audience of customers. 

I live in a part of the world where non-animal and quality ingredients is very important.


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## sassanellat (Oct 5, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> No input on this?
> 
> Is this not something other soap makers think about? Making a top quality product with the best ingredients possible?



LOL! I didn't reply initially because many people usually don't like what I have to say on the GMO subject (despite being an expert in an area of that field and having made non-plant GMOs) or even organic. 

The vast majority of GMOs are FANTASTIC; a few are horrible. The general health nut wank is utterly misleading, and often based on things like the EU banning the import of GMOS (which was political, due to African sourcing, and contrary to their own initial scientific studies. Last year, they comissioned a new study, which also concurred that there was no problem with the food stuff GMOs in question, which they also ignored for political reasons). Now, the handful of BAD GMOs are *really* bad. These involve pesticide and herbicide resistances, and exist to increase profits at the obvious expense of human and environmental health and should be categorically stopped. Most people don't understand this and want to lump them all together with the bad ones and throw out a better faster, safer plant modification technique with the proverbial bathwater. With soap, the issue really is how much herbicide and pesticide remains in the oil. Most people avoid cottonseed oil because when the US banned the pesticide that works best on cotton, they moved production to countries where they could still use that chemical. Some avoid any GMO soy because even though many of the modificaitons have nothing to do with p/h, you cannot know if treated soy is mixed in somewhere in the process. The organic certification is the only way to avoid this. OTOH, there is olive oil, which almost never needs any help from farmers, grows on trees that are a hundred or more years old, in orchards that have never, ever seen a whisper of pesticide or chemicals, yet still aren't considered organic. So, it's complicated. 

The best thing to do, IMHO, is use olive oil, never pomace grade. Skip the palm (even the certified stuff creates problems) and go with the alternatives (add salt and sodium lactate with the veg options, or use lard or tallow, which are actually green choices if you can get a good source). Skip the cottonseed oil, and investigate your sources for everything else to see if buying organic matters. Skip the fragrance oils. Go with the oxides and aquamarines, but skip any other synthetic colors. (But this is just me - I have no problem at all with people that make other choices! As I said, it's hard, and there are always tradeoffs.)

I'll note that this is hard - I regularly fail and violate these ideals, but even so, most of my products do comply. For me, the FOs are the big stumbling block. I have them around for candles, but sometimes, I just have to make my nieces some Pink Sugar soap, gumdrop sugar scrubbies for Christmas gifts, or make some Irish Tweed shaving soap for me.


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## Meganmischke (Oct 5, 2014)

Missmoneypenny said:


> Megan do you sell your soaps? I don't but ugh to one day. I find beef tallow can make a great bar,but worry an animal fat might put off potential customers.



No I don't currently sell. I have people begging to buy though. I think #1 you should love your recipe if that includes tallow, awesome.  You need to have a product you are passionate about.  It would be impossible to make everybody happy with one recipe anyway.


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## sassanellat (Oct 5, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> I make vegan-friendly products (with the exception of the honey/oats soap I use to make) for that reason of having a larger audience of customers.
> 
> I live in a part of the world where non-animal and quality ingredients is very important.



Making good soap is the always the best way to larger audience. And while I have no inclination at all to ever be concerned about 'vegan-friendly' products (though I make a few; they just came out best that way in development), I'm sure that the vegans would also have big problems with the massive deforestation, orangutan habitat destruction, and the soil depleting  and fair-wage issues (even for double certified) in the case of palm products. Everything seems to be a devil-if-you-do-devil-if-you-don't tradeoff these days.


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## pamielynn (Oct 5, 2014)

"Best quality" meaning what, exactly? You can have organic everything and still make a sub-par soap bar. 

I don't understand sourcing all (except lye and water) organic ingredients - many of which will have to be shipped to you, when you can never qualify for a fully organic bar of soap. And even if you don't pay for an Organic label, you still can't advertise as having an organic bar. Oregon Tilth, maybe; I don't know all the qualifications for that.


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## MrDurden (Oct 5, 2014)

I will absolutely not consciously use GM ingredients at any point ever or support companies like Monsanto. We can skip the argument about health ramifications and just cut it down to the fact I make top quality handcrafted products. And I will use as close to natural and/or organic that I can. As I said, I want to be able to say in full confidence that I make the best possible product with the best ingredients I can. 

I've never considered using FO's. I often tell my customers that "fragrance is the F-word in my vocabulary". I have a limited available scents due to the cost of EO's. I don't use colorants either. I try to keep it as simple as possible, ya know? Salt and sodium lactate? What for? 

No palm, huh? It doesn't have it's place with it's own unique characteristics in soap? What issues do you mean? I read long time ago I read to use equal amounts of hard vs. liquid oils. I'm not sure what that was based on though. And I don't think I've heard that since. 

Why do you bring up cottonseed oil? I think I've heard of that stuff growing in this area, not sure what the oil situation is though.


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## LunaSkye (Oct 6, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> I will absolutely not consciously use GM ingredients at any point ever or support companies like Monsanto. We can skip the argument about health ramifications and just cut it down to the fact I make top quality handcrafted products. And I will use as close to natural and/or organic that I can. As I said, I want to be able to say in full confidence that I make the best possible product with the best ingredients I can.
> 
> I've never considered using FO's. I often tell my customers that "fragrance is the F-word in my vocabulary". I have a limited available scents due to the cost of EO's. I don't use colorants either. I try to keep it as simple as possible, ya know? Salt and sodium lactate? What for?
> 
> ...



1. Salt and sodium lactate both up the hardness of a soap. In addition, salt is a natural cleanser with antimicrobial properties and helps with detoxing. Keep it in mind in case you ever want to try a simple soap bar. 

2. With the stigma related to palm (unethical harvesting, destruction of the orangutans' habitat, etc), many people will avoid using it in any kind of way. It is nice for making a hard soap, but some soapers would rather used other oils/fats/butters/powders to make a hard soap.

3. 50/50 hard/soft oil rule is something that I personally never heard of. It may have to do with the fact that soap harden faster with harder oils than with softer oils.

4. I'm not sure if there is also an issue with cottonseed oil, but I read on another site that it is produced in a similar manner as canola and OO pomace.

P.S.: I'm also not big on GMOs, although I do respect sassanellet's input. It's just my own preference.


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## MrDurden (Oct 6, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> "Best quality" meaning what, exactly? You can have organic everything and still make a sub-par soap bar.
> 
> I don't understand sourcing all (except lye and water) organic ingredients - many of which will have to be shipped to you, when you can never qualify for a fully organic bar of soap. And even if you don't pay for an Organic label, you still can't advertise as having an organic bar. Oregon Tilth, maybe; I don't know all the qualifications for that.



As I've said, I want to make the best soap I can. The soap I make now is amazing (as I'm sure we all make. It's pretty easy to do these days with the internet). Just wanting to increase the quality of the ingredients. 

I can use "organic" in my ingredients. Organic coconut oil, organic hemp oil, etc. I would never want to put a USDA certified organic label on my packaging.


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## MrDurden (Oct 6, 2014)

LunaSkye said:


> 1. Salt and sodium lactate both up the hardness of a soap. In addition, salt is a natural cleanser with antimicrobial properties and helps with detoxing. Keep it in mind in case you ever want to try a simple soap bar.
> 
> 2. With the stigma related to palm (unethical harvesting, destruction of the orangutans' habitat, etc), many people will avoid using it in any kind of way. It is nice for making a hard soap, but some soapers would rather used other oils/fats/butters/powders to make a hard soap.
> 
> ...



Do you know where I could look to find more info on those ingredients you suggested? I'd imagine any soap supply place has those...

And part of me likes to use palm oil so I can educate people on the topic. People just up the bandwagon and freak out over a single product because they saw some headline and ran with it not doing any further research. But it might be a good thing to remove it to avoid that all together. I had a read my ingredients once and said "do you really use beaver anus in your soap?". I was like "uhhhhhh, whaaaaat????" He read castor oil and thought Castoreum. Yikes.

https://www.drbronner.com/ingredients/fair-trade-around-the-world/palm-oil/


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## LunaSkye (Oct 6, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> Do you know where I could look to find more info on those ingredients you suggested? I'd imagine any soap supply place has those...
> 
> And part of me likes to use palm oil so I can educate people on the topic. People just up the bandwagon and freak out over a single product because they saw some headline and ran with it not doing any further research. But it might be a good thing to remove it to avoid that all together. I had a read my ingredients once and said "*do you really use beaver anus in your soap?*". I was like "uhhhhhh, whaaaaat????" *He read castor oil and thought Castoreum*. Yikes.
> 
> https://www.drbronner.com/ingredients/fair-trade-around-the-world/palm-oil/



Soaper's Choice is a good start for the oils and butters (their shipping beats most other places imo). WPS and Brambleberry are pretty popular with other soap ingredients as well. The abbreviations thread also has a list of suppliers' names that you can check out. Lastly,  Essential Depot is a great place to get lye. Just scroll down the page until you see that name of the lye you want to use. You should see a list of lye selections that you can order upon clicking the link.

P.S.: I would suggest keeping the palm soaps on hand in case you have some die-hard fans while making a no-palm soap for people who are against the use of palm. At the end of the day, a number of reputable suppliers have the resources to look for palm oil that is sustainable. It would be bad business for them to try and get over on their customers (and shady deals tend to come out one way or another).

P.P.S.: the highlighted sentences was hilarious!


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## MrDurden (Oct 6, 2014)

LunaSkye said:


> Soaper's Choice is a good start for the oils and butters (their shipping beats most other places imo). WPS and Brambleberry are pretty popular with other soap ingredients as well. The abbreviations thread also has a list of suppliers' names that you can check out. Lastly,  Essential Depot is a great place to get lye. Just scroll down the page until you see that name of the lye you want to use. You should see a list of lye selections that you can order upon clicking the link.
> 
> P.S.: I would suggest keeping the palm soaps on hand in case you have some die-hard fans while making a no-palm soap for people who are against the use of palm. At the end of the day, a number of reputable suppliers have the resources to look for palm oil that is sustainable. It would be bad business for them to try and get over on their customers (and shady deals tend to come out one way or another).
> 
> P.P.S.: the highlighted sentences was hilarious!



I live in an area with 3 soap supply places. I don't think I could get ingredients any cheaper. I still haven't found olive oil cheaper than Costco though. Maybe when I get in a bigger quantity. 

I was more curious about how much of those ingredients to use....


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## LunaSkye (Oct 6, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> I live in an area with 3 soap supply places. I don't think I could get ingredients any cheaper. I still haven't found olive oil cheaper than Costco though. Maybe when I get in a bigger quantity.
> 
> I was more curious about how much of those ingredients to use....



I never used sodium lactate, but I made one salt bar. I like it a lot and would make one again given the chance. A basic salt bar recipe would have you use 100% CO with up to 100% of the oil's weight in salt added at trace. Most soapers would also use a 20% SF for a salt bar. Another take on a salt bars is a salt brine soap or soleseife bar. This thread can be more helpful on how to make a soleseife bar.

As for the palm replacements, lard and tallow can be used in its place. I used lard in a few soaps and will say it may take some time to harden up (my own experience with my Chloe soap). However, the lather from my lard soap is very different from what I made with PO (nice, soft, luxurious). You could also use butters like cocoa, mango, or shea. Using 15% shea and 10% cocoa butter made for a nice soap. It is possible to go higher on the butters, but they really do affect how much lather you get. Adding castor oil or sugar can help with that.


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## MrDurden (Oct 6, 2014)

LunaSkye said:


> I never used sodium lactate, but I made one salt bar. I like it a lot and would make one again given the chance. A basic salt bar recipe would have you use 100% CO with up to 100% of the oil's weight in salt added at trace. Most soapers would also use a 20% SF for a salt bar. Another take on a salt bars is a salt brine soap or soleseife bar. This thread can be more helpful on how to make a soleseife bar.
> 
> As for the palm replacements, lard and tallow can be used in its place. I used lard in a few soaps and will say it may take some time to harden up (my own experience with my Chloe soap). However, the lather from my lard soap is very different from what I made with PO (nice, soft, luxurious). You could also use butters like cocoa, mango, or shea. Using 15% shea and 10% cocoa butter made for a nice soap. It is possible to go higher on the butters, but they really do affect how much lather you get. Adding castor oil or sugar can help with that.



Thanks for the links. 

I will continue to use only vegetable-based oils though. I use castor as well. You don't think I'd have an issue just eliminating palm and not replacing it with another oil? Maybe increase coconut a bit more compared to the other oils I increase? 

I think I'll start using organic RBD coconut oil. That I can get for $105 for 5 gallons.


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## Missmoneypenny (Oct 7, 2014)

Thanks everyone who replied to my queries re animal fats in soap (previous page). My olive, coconut, shea and beef tallow bar is super. I use it at home  and love it. I gave another bar to a Muslim friend which simply omitted the tallow and she was very pleased with it. But i realise that just by having it i am excluding lots of potential customers. I live in multicultural London, so that's vegetarians, muslims, hindus and jews out at a swipe! The recipe would probably work very well with palm oil, but I refuse to use that, for my own convictions. The search continues.


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## loopyloop (Oct 7, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> I make vegan-friendly products (with the exception of the honey/oats soap I use to make) for that reason of having a larger audience of customers.
> 
> 
> 
> I live in a part of the world where non-animal and quality ingredients is very important.




....and where would that be? Sounds kindda elitist to me, sir.


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## LunaSkye (Oct 7, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> Thanks for the links.
> 
> I will continue to use only vegetable-based oils though. I use castor as well. You don't think I'd have an issue just eliminating palm and not replacing it with another oil? Maybe increase coconut a bit more compared to the other oils I increase?
> 
> I think I'll start using organic RBD coconut oil. That I can get for $105 for 5 gallons.



The thing about increasing CO is that it may make a the soap too cleansing for some people to use. I remember using a soap made with 25% CO and I really felt the clean, more than I wanted really. You can try including beeswax at 5% max PPO to help make a harder soap. It's an afterthought and it's not a vegan option, but it's a people-friendly option that some customers should know about if they use Burt's Bees products. Then there is Babassu oil, which I'm not too sure about in terms of pricing. It is similar to CO, but is said to be less drying. I think it makes for a nice soap from what I bought.

P.S.: this link may help with other options.


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## MrDurden (Oct 7, 2014)

loopyloop said:


> ....and where would that be? Sounds kindda elitist to me, sir.



:yawn:


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## MrDurden (Oct 7, 2014)

LunaSkye said:


> The thing about increasing CO is that it may make a the soap too cleansing for some people to use. I remember using a soap made with 25% CO and I really felt the clean, more than I wanted really. You can try including beeswax at 5% max PPO to help make a harder soap. It's an afterthought and it's not a vegan option, but it's a people-friendly option that some customers should know about if they use Burt's Bees products. Then there is Babassu oil, which I'm not too sure about in terms of pricing. It is similar to CO, but is said to be less drying. I think it makes for a nice soap from what I bought.
> 
> P.S.: this link may help with other options.



Vegans are silly, but I still want to be able to sell to them, ya know? 

Burt's Bees = owned by Clorox. I suggest other brands to people and offer Merry Hempsters organic hemp lip balms myself. 

It wasn't cottonseed oil I was meaning before. It was Meadowfoam seed. Apparently large amount of that is grown in my region.


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## LunaSkye (Oct 7, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> Vegans are silly, but I still want to be able to sell to them, ya know?
> 
> Burt's Bees = owned by Clorox. I suggest other brands to people and offer Merry Hempsters organic hemp lip balms myself.
> 
> It wasn't cottonseed oil I was meaning before. It was Meadowfoam seed. Apparently large amount of that is grown in my region.



Meadowfoam oil is an oil I haven't ever used. I heard that it is good on the skin, but I know nothing else about it.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 8, 2014)

I find it hard to picture the best quality soap ever when a lot of things being discussed are new to you. If you haven't explored every angle, or even many of them, then it will be a time of many experiments until you can actually claim that. Maybe not ever with this science/art called soaping. 

I also wonder what the measurable differences between a soap made with organic oils vs non organic are. What sort of information can you point me to on that topic?


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## LunaSkye (Oct 9, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I also wonder what the measurable differences between a soap made with organic oils vs non organic are. What sort of information can you point me to on that topic?



I actually like this question.  For me, it's all about my preference. For all I know, a lot of crops that are grown could be GMOs. According to US regulations, organic crops are not allowed to be made with any type of GMO whatsoever. That said, I usually try my best to buy organic when I'm not certain that the item in question is GMO-free. Unfortunately, its not always possible to completely avoid certain things, but I'm happy just to be able to avoid most of it.


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## loopyloop (Oct 9, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> :yawn:




Yep, thought so. Thanks for confirming... Classy.


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## Susie (Oct 9, 2014)

Missmoneypenny said:


> Thanks everyone who replied to my queries re animal fats in soap (previous page). My olive, coconut, shea and beef tallow bar is super. I use it at home  and love it. I gave another bar to a Muslim friend which simply omitted the tallow and she was very pleased with it. But i realise that just by having it i am excluding lots of potential customers. I live in multicultural London, so that's vegetarians, muslims, hindus and jews out at a swipe! The recipe would probably work very well with palm oil, but I refuse to use that, for my own convictions. The search continues.



I am not sure why tallow would exclude muslims and jewish people.  Lard, I could sort of understand, but I have spoken to a rabbi(reformed), and he said it is EATING pork products that would be a problem, not using soap made with pork products.  I just do not have a contact among the muslim clergy to ask them, so I can't help there.


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## Susie (Oct 9, 2014)

LunaSkye said:


> I actually like this question.  For me, it's all about my preference. For all I know, a lot of crops that are grown could be GMOs. According to US regulations, organic crops are not allowed to be made with any type of GMO whatsoever. That said, I usually try my best to buy organic when I'm not certain that the item in question is GMO-free. Unfortunately, its not always possible to completely avoid certain things, but I'm happy just to be able to avoid most of it.



Preference explains everything.  You like to make your soap with those ingredients, I like to make my soap my way.  

And I can sort of understand not wanting to use GMO foods to eat.  Some of those have lost almost all nutritional value in the struggle to get produce to market, and allow for a longer shelf life.  I don't really get why GMO would affect quality of soap, but if that is what matters to you, then go for it.


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## sagehill (Oct 9, 2014)

As a retired organic farmer, I avoid GMOs and anything related to Monsanto simply because I ~know~ how much and how often poisons are sprayed on the fields to grow GMOs because I see all of my farming neighbors spraying.  Most people do not have a clue as to amounts of toxins sprayed on their food that does not wash off... these are very sound reasons to buy organic as much as possible.

Farmers spray before they plant to prevent emerging weeds, they spray mid-season to keep the next round of weeds down, and they spray again shortly before harvest to knock down the weeds for their combines.  And that's just weedkillers... pesticides are sprayed several times a season, too.  

Most conventional farmers of a certain age get diseases at a rate far beyond the average population... bone and bowel cancers, liver and bladder tumors, rampant brain tumors, Parkinsons, and that's just off the top of my head.   Even the Amish use Roundup, not realizing how bad it is... they believe the advertising that it is relatively harmless.

Maybe the toxins don't come through in the soaping oils, that's not the issue. The issue is, by buying GMO oils, we continue to support the poisonings of fields and food across the world. It's not just in the USA... the Amazon forests and grassland pampas of Argentina are being torn up at a frightening rate, just to grow soy and other GMO crops. 

I'll climb down from my anti-GMO soaping box now. http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## pamielynn (Oct 9, 2014)

sagehill said:


> Maybe the toxins don't come through in the soaping oils, that's not the issue. The issue is, by buying GMO oils, we continue to support the poisonings of fields and food across the world. It's not just in the USA... the Amazon forests and grassland pampas of Argentina are being torn up at a frightening rate, just to grow soy and other GMO crops.



This. A GMO plant won't affect your soap, but buying them supports GMO, even if in a tiny way. I don't worry so much that eating GMO corn, in and of itself, will give us an extra arm in the future (that could actually work out well for me  ) BUT the amount of pesticide that can be applied to GMO crops is frightening. Plus... Monsanto blows and we should never allow one company to control our food supply. Ever. 

This is completely off topic and I apologize, but I'm so anti-Monsanto myself, that I couldn't control my fingers from typing out this reply.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 9, 2014)

Fortunately, here in the EU it is not a case of choosing between GMO or oganic - there is very few GM products available due to the very strict testing requirements. So I can buy non-GMO without having to shell out for "organic" oils.


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## pamielynn (Oct 9, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Fortunately, here in the EU it is not a case of choosing between GMO or oganic - there is very few GM products available due to the very strict testing requirements. So I can buy non-GMO without having to shell out for "organic" oils.



When choosing oils for soaping purposes in the US, you don't really need to have organic since most of our GM crops aren't that great for soap, like corn and wheat - but many people like to use soy and canola and for those, you need to buy organic, or you'll probably get GMO crops in your products. I guess I'm just not a Roundup Ready kinda girl, but organic doesn't really seem to add anything much to the QUALITY of a soap - it's just personal preference or label appeal.


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## LunaSkye (Oct 9, 2014)

Susie said:


> I am not sure why tallow would exclude muslims and jewish people.  Lard, I could sort of understand, but I have spoken to a rabbi(reformed), and he said it is EATING pork products that would be a problem, not using soap made with pork products.  I just do not have a contact among the muslim clergy to ask them, so I can't help there.



To my knowledge, items that are kosher and halal are similar, but not exactly the same. I do not have contacts on either side to go deeper, but I rather take the safe-over-sorry road (for anyone): I'll give them the option of what type of soap to try.

I also respect your point of view for GMO oils. My belief stems from the fact that the skin can absorb a lot of things. The leftover oils from the SF would also be absorbed, depending on the oil. I want the best for myself and the people I share my soaps with. So the research begins... whenever I can stop posting on the site.


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## sassanellat (Oct 9, 2014)

Susie said:


> I am not sure why tallow would exclude muslims and jewish people.  Lard, I could sort of understand, but I have spoken to a rabbi(reformed), and he said it is EATING pork products that would be a problem, not using soap made with pork products.  I just do not have a contact among the muslim clergy to ask them, so I can't help there.



LOL! I was just going to say the exact same thing. I understand people who are vegetarian due to animal death sensitivity, but as far as I know, the religious restrictions only apply to *eating*.


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## sassanellat (Oct 9, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> Burt's Bees = owned by Clorox.



While the making of bleach is environmentally messy, and we really need to use less of it in home laundry and cleaning products because there are vastly safer alternatives for home use, a great percentage of humans are alive because of Chlorox bleach. A trip to the doctor's would be vastly scarier, and hospitals? A nightmare. It's cheap, it is a very potent germicidal agent, and it works exceedingly well went used properly. There is no shame in that. And falling under the same corporate umbrella doesn't mean anything.  

Burt's Bees products used to be a bit better, but now they mass market, they did compromise here and there. Mostly, I'm extremely jealous they they have access to quite a few natural preservatives/antibiotics/antivirals that are native to human skin that we can't get for home use.


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## Susie (Oct 9, 2014)

sassanellat said:


> While the making of bleach is environmentally messy, and we really need to use less of it in home laundry and cleaning products because there are vastly safer alternatives for home use, a great percentage of humans are alive because of Chlorox bleach. A trip to the doctor's would be vastly scarier, and hospitals? A nightmare. It's cheap, it is a very potent germicidal agent, and it works exceedingly well went used properly. There is no shame in that. And falling under the same corporate umbrella doesn't mean anything.
> 
> Burt's Bees products used to be a bit better, but now they mass market, they did compromise here and there. Mostly, I'm extremely jealous they they have access to quite a few natural preservatives/antibiotics/antivirals that are native to human skin that we can't get for home use.



Back in the old days hospitals used bleach to clean and disinfect.  Now they use other chemicals for the most part.  We would be better off using bleach again as the new disinfectants are causing lots of problems.  But people's clothes were getting bleached and other complaints saw to the removal of bleach


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## sassanellat (Oct 9, 2014)

Susie said:


> And I can sort of understand not wanting to use GMO foods to eat.  Some of those have lost almost all nutritional value in the struggle to get produce to market, and allow for a longer shelf life.  I don't really get why GMO would affect quality of soap, but if that is what matters to you, then go for it.



Actually, the first part is usually not true or they would never have been approved for food use (yes, there is a committee). Now, if you want to say that about taste, you'd be much more accurate (like tomatoes). But they're fixing that, too. That happens because vitamins are easy,  but the small and flavor compounds are very complicated, and in many cases, it's new territory research-wise. 

The only real potential of GMOs on soap is that (in a very small number of cases), the engineered part allows increased pesticide/herbicide use on the fields, the traces of which carry over into the food. They are unequivocally a bad idea. Most GMOs are brilliant really - we couldn't feed the world or maintain global health without them.


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## sassanellat (Oct 9, 2014)

sagehill said:


> As a retired organic farmer, I avoid GMOs and anything related to Monsanto simply because I ~know~ how much and how often poisons are sprayed on the fields to grow GMOs because I see all of my farming neighbors spraying.  Most people do not have a clue as to amounts of toxins sprayed on their food that does not wash off... these are very sound reasons to buy organic as much as possible. {...}
> 
> Maybe the toxins don't come through in the soaping oils, that's not the issue. The issue is, by buying GMO oils, we continue to support the poisonings of fields and food across the world. It's not just in the USA... the Amazon forests and grassland pampas of Argentina are being torn up at a frightening rate, just to grow soy and other GMO crops.



I'll just point out that the GMOs that you are describing are only a TINY handful of all GMOs, most of which are totally brilliant (and a vast majority  have nothing to do with Monsanto), so it's really misleading to paint ALL GMOs as bad because a few actually are. I agree completely that the ones you describe have to be removed from use, though. 

Most of the time, yes, the chemicals can be found in the oils in trace amounts, and there is absolutely no required testing for this (which is a no-brainer, but Monsanto, for one, prevents that legislation from happening). The deforestation really has nothing to do with GMOs, but human overpopulation.


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## sassanellat (Oct 9, 2014)

Susie said:


> Back in the old days hospitals used bleach to clean and disinfect.  Now they use other chemicals for the most part.  We would be better off using bleach again as the new disinfectants are causing lots of problems.  But people's clothes were getting bleached and other complaints saw to the removal of bleach



I actually teach pathogenic micro/microbial control to medical professionals (and nutrition some semesters). Bleach is still in the rotation because it's cheap and very, very effective on the scariest bacteria. But, they cut back on the use during the last couple decades because it needs to be washed off, and it produces noxious fumes. It's coming back strong, though, because most of the alternatives are actually even worse for the environment. The oxyclean type (for heavy cleaning) and the citrus oils (for lighter cleaning) are excellent alternatives at home and in the hospitals, and they don't leave anything toxic to humans behind on surfaces.


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## pamielynn (Oct 10, 2014)

sassanellat said:


> Burt's Bees products used to be a bit better, but now they mass market, they did compromise here and there. Mostly, I'm extremely jealous they they have access to quite a few natural preservatives/antibiotics/antivirals that are native to human skin that we can't get for home use.



Just this week, I saw that BB has licensed their name to BABY CLOTHES. Yep. Crushingly disappointed in the direction they have taken with their products and name. And poor Burt doesn't even spend the money they gave him to get gone.


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## Susie (Oct 10, 2014)

sassanellat said:


> I actually teach pathogenic micro/microbial control to medical professionals (and nutrition some semesters). Bleach is still in the rotation because it's cheap and very, very effective on the scariest bacteria. But, they cut back on the use during the last couple decades because it needs to be washed off, and it produces noxious fumes. It's coming back strong, though, because most of the alternatives are actually even worse for the environment. The oxyclean type (for heavy cleaning) and the citrus oils (for lighter cleaning) are excellent alternatives at home and in the hospitals, and they don't leave anything toxic to humans behind on surfaces.



I hope so, it seems like more pathogens are becoming resistant to the newer stuff every day.  And I am having a more difficult time going to the hospital for labwork and such due to allergies to that stuff.  It is why I had to leave hospital nursing.  I am allergic to Oxyclean, but I use my own soaps to clean, with bleach to follow and sanitize when needed(like toilets and kitchen counters after handling raw meats).  I can tolerate bleach fumes with no problem with a vent fan running.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 10, 2014)

sassanellat said:


> ........Burt's Bees products used to be a bit better, but now they mass market, they did compromise here and there. Mostly, I'm extremely jealous they they have access to quite a few natural preservatives/antibiotics/antivirals that are native to human skin that we can't get for home use.


 
Can you expand on the natural preservatives/antibiotics/antivirals bit?  Would be an interesting read


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## sagehill (Oct 10, 2014)

sassanellat said:


> ... yes, the chemicals can be found in the oils in trace amounts, and there is absolutely no required testing for this ... _The deforestation really has nothing to do with GMOs, but human overpopulation._


As a farmer, I have been intensively reading/learning/researching GMOs, their related toxins, and Monsanto et al for many years. I'm very familiar with all ramifications pro and con. 

What led me to organics 15 years ago was waste of feed, oddly enough: I noticed that NONE of my livestock, from chickens to cows, would willingly eat GMOs unless the feed was ground and pelletized. Before that, I didn't know or care about GMOs either way... but as a small farmer, I did care about wasted feed, so for one year I tested my observation and noticed, _given the choice, all animals avoid GMO feed. _Hmmmmm... so I began researching GMOs.

Deforestation is not due to overpopulation... that's a Monsanto line. Deforestation is due to GMOs, both directly and indirectly:


> Biotech promoters always claim the expansion of soybean cultivation as     a measure of the successful adoption of the transgenic technology by  farmers.     But these data conceal     the fact that soybean expansion leads to extreme land and income  concentration.     In Brazil, soybean     cultivation displaces 11 agricultural workers for every one who  finds employment in the sector. _In the 1970s, 2.5 million people were displaced by soybean  production in Parana, and 0.3 million in Rio Grande do Sul. *Many of  these now landless people moved     to the Amazon where they cleared pristine forests.*_
> 
> ... Large-scale soybean     monocultures have rendered Amazonian soils unusable.... In Bolivia, soybean  production is expanding     towards the east, and in many areas soils are already compacted and  suffering     severe soil degradation. One hundred thousand hectares of land with  soils exhausted due to soybean were abandoned for cattle-grazing, which  in turn     further degrades the land. _As     land is abandoned, farmers move to other areas where they     again plant soybeans and repeat     the vicious cycle of soil degradation.
> 
> _Read more: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/SDILA.php


Again, *the important issue of GMOs is poisoning of land and people*.


> Visiting these farm villages, the AP found chemicals in places where they were never intended to be.
> 
> Claudia Sariski, whose home has no running water, says she doesn't let  her twin toddlers drink from the discarded poison containers she keeps  in her dusty backyard. But her chickens do, and she uses it to wash the  family's clothes.
> 
> ...





> In 2002, two years after the first big harvests of RR soy in the country, residents and doctors in soy producing areas began reporting serious health effects from glyphosate spraying, including high rates of birth defects as well as infertility, stillbirths, miscarriages, and cancers [2]. Environmental effects include killed food crops and livestock and streams strewn with dead fish [2, 3].
> 
> Read more: http://www.i-sis.org.uk/argentinasRoundupHumanTragedy.php





> ... some inert ingredients have been found to potentially affect  human health. Many amplify the effects of active ingredients by helping  them penetrate clothing, protective equipment and cell membranes, or by  increasing their toxicity.
> 
> ... POEA was recognized as a common inert ingredient in herbicides in the  1980s, when researchers linked it to a group of poisonings in Japan.  Doctors there examined patients who drank Roundup, either intentionally  or accidentally, and determined that their sicknesses and deaths were  due to POEA, not glyphosate.
> 
> ...


I can go all day providing solid scientific support that GMOs are wrong on very many levels, against your unsupported protestations that GMOs are good.

Again, I apologize for sidetracking the thread, but simply could not avoid responding to claims that GMO aren't dangerous.  Everyone must decide for themselves, but at least decide on the basis of solid evidence, either way.

Jenny


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## sassanellat (Oct 10, 2014)

Susie said:


> I hope so, it seems like more pathogens are becoming resistant to the newer stuff every day.  And I am having a more difficult time going to the hospital for labwork and such due to allergies to that stuff.  It is why I had to leave hospital nursing.  I am allergic to Oxyclean, but I use my own soaps to clean, with bleach to follow and sanitize when needed(like toilets and kitchen counters after handling raw meats).  I can tolerate bleach fumes with no problem with a vent fan running.



Check out the citrus cleaners (there are several brands in stores now). They are 99.8% effective, rather than 99.9%, but they are non-toxic to humans (we have rare citrus detox genes) and they don't need to be washed off. They are pretty much solublized citrus EOs, so they smell nice, too.


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## sassanellat (Oct 10, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Can you expand on the natural preservatives/antibiotics/antivirals bit?  Would be an interesting read



I could only find some of my Burt's Bees notes (I only have a few minutes before I have to run), but the now add lactoperoxidase and glucose+glucose peroxidase as preservatives in their Peppermint foot cream and their Almond Milk Hand Creme. Both are enzymes humans produce and excrete on their skins as part of our innate immune system (thus perfectly human safe), and they are effective against a lot of bacteria and viruses because they slowly produce oxygen radicals tha indiscriminately harm microbes. I think they also use one or two others like lysozyme. We use these things in lab, but not certified for human use, and I can't find any information about their use and effectiveness in water based products (nor a source). The foo cream doesn't actually have any other preservative and it's water inclusive, so it must work!


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## sassanellat (Oct 10, 2014)

sagehill said:


> What led me to organics 15 years ago was waste of feed, oddly enough: I noticed that NONE of my livestock, from chickens to cows, would willingly eat GMOs unless the feed was ground and pelletized.  {...}
> 
> Deforestation is not due to overpopulation... that's a Monsanto line. {..}
> 
> Again, I apologize for sidetracking the thread, but simply could not avoid responding to claims that GMO aren't dangerous.  Everyone must decide for themselves, but at least decide on the basis of solid evidence, either way.



1) Because they don't taste the same as they are used to (or the added hormones were more prevalent, or the binder was different, or the antibiotics were different - who knows?). That doesn't mean anything, and to be honest: they shouldn't be eating most 'feed' in the first place, which is an unnatural way to feed livestock. They've been trained to eat the usual feed, and don't like change. Dogs and cats display the same behavior despite the fact that the food is basically equivalent. Without significant testing, you really can't say more than 'you noticed' (and I'm a big fan of people that notice things, because it's shockingly uncommon).  

2) It's not Monsanto's line - it's the reality of the situation. If you can't sell the food, no one will grow it. It's not the GMO, it's the fact that people buy the food (and Monsanto (ugh) provides the seed to maximize profit, which does not have to be chosen). Both reports commissioned by the EU (which politically bans GMO importation) also say just what I said. Close to nine billion people have to be fed, and they population is exploding at a rate most people can't conceive. If you'd like to place blame, I'd squarely place that on Monsanto's predatory business practices, not a world-wide category of excellent products that don't deserve the blame.  

(I don't quote individual sources because the internet is filled with all kinds of nonsense. I can find a citation from a PhD that says the moon is made of green cheese (seriously, look - you can! LOL!). It's a complex issue, so looking at many references from reputable sources is the way I always go, and with Google, you can always be sure you get good links and you're not sidetracked into propaganda. And I'm saying that you are doing that; I'm just stating my policy on citations and why.)

3) A vast percentage of GMOs are perfectly safe (a statement that has all kinds of scientific backing, and the citations are available online in the scientific literature and from the approval committees). Nature makes trillions of GMOs every day (even wildly cross-species), and humans have been deliberately making the old-school, slower, more random, less safe versions of GMOs for about a hundred thousand years. The place we have to be careful (and the place relevant here in soapworld) isn't the GMO, but the trace chemicals applied in the fields that are more prevalent in some of them.


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## sagehill (Oct 10, 2014)

We can debate this in the Off-Topics section if you'd like, but I don't care to disrupt this thread any further.


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## MrDurden (Oct 15, 2014)

loopyloop said:


> Yep, thought so. Thanks for confirming... Classy.



I said people care about ingredients. A great deal of people care in my part of the world of what's in their products. What they use matters to them. There's nothing elite or wrong with that. Yeah, I yawned at your pointless question. Are you here to help provide input on my question or troll?


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## MrDurden (Oct 15, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> When choosing oils for soaping purposes in the US, you don't really need to have organic since most of our GM crops aren't that great for soap, like corn and wheat - but many people like to use soy and canola and for those, you need to buy organic, or you'll probably get GMO crops in your products. I guess I'm just not a Roundup Ready kinda girl, but organic doesn't really seem to add anything much to the QUALITY of a soap - it's just personal preference or label appeal.



Yeah, that's why the Non-GMO Verified label will be easier and cheaper than it would be with other products. 

I'm a firm believer in voting with your dollars. 

I still haven't done the math to see what it will cost to switch over to organic ingredients. I for sure want to use organic coconut oil due to the chemicals used in the RBD processing.


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## MrDurden (Oct 15, 2014)

LunaSkye said:


> To my knowledge, items that are kosher and halal are similar, but not exactly the same. I do not have contacts on either side to go deeper, but I rather take the safe-over-sorry road (for anyone): I'll give them the option of what type of soap to try.
> 
> I also respect your point of view for GMO oils. My belief stems from the fact that the skin can absorb a lot of things. The leftover oils from the SF would also be absorbed, depending on the oil. I want the best for myself and the people I share my soaps with. So the research begins... whenever I can stop posting on the site.



I looked into Kosher Certification. What a joke. $2,000 a year is what I was quoted. For a Rabbi to come to my soap kitchen and look around. I was told it only matters a couple days a year anyway.


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## sagehill (Oct 15, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> I for sure want to use organic coconut oil due to the chemicals used in the RBD processing.


Virgin coconut oil is naturally white anyway; further refining is done to remove the natural coconut scent, as with cocoa butter.

RBD is mostly for palm oils and GMO seed oils.  Watch this video that shows how canola oil requires solvents, industrial steaming, dewaxing, bleaching, and  deodorizing before it's ready to use... and this is for EDIBLE oils! [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=omjWmLG0EAs#t=0[/ame]

With all this processing, no wonder most seed oils go rancid so quickly. This is just one reason why I refuse to consume chemically processed industrial food... or use it for soaping.

As a farmer, what horrifies me was that they feed that sludgy, rancid leftover crap to feedlot livestock... so simple to feed, just pour it into feed bunks with massive trucks.  

Well, hey... they have to get rid of that nasty stuff somehow, don't they.  But what most people don't understand is... we're eating that stuff anyway, just indirectly.


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## sagehill (Oct 15, 2014)

Check out how olive oil is made... I like how the processor sips the oil as soon as it's pressed: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aieNV3V4b_s[/ame]


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## MrDurden (Oct 15, 2014)

I'd rather use virgin coconut oil, but it's more expensive than organic RBD.

I've spent a fair amount of time trying to research this stuff on my own since it's hard to get the info from suppliers. 

Olive oil is tricky since it's such a fancy oil for many. It'd be cool if they made a blend that was specific for soap making. 

I'll never use canola oil (AKA rapeseed). I believe most all (if not all) is genetically modified. Lush (that goofy body care product store in malls) uses that stuff. I can't believe the ingredients of their soap compared to the price. 

Thanks for the links!


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## Fairy (Oct 17, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> I'd rather use virgin coconut oil, but it's more expensive than organic RBD.
> 
> I've spent a fair amount of time trying to research this stuff on my own since it's hard to get the info from suppliers.
> 
> ...



Do you live near a Costco's or Sam's club by any chance? I usually buy olive oil and coconut oil in bulk a Costco for a decent price. I think I picked up a big bottle of avocado oil from there once too. I believe their coconut oil is USDA certified, and I think they sell USDA EVOO as well. Might be worth looking at.

Whole Foods also sells quite a wide variety of organic/non-GMO cooking oils as well. Their cosmetic oils are nice, but tend to be more expensive. They sell butters in small amounts as well, but I've no idea about the quality.


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## CanaDawn (Oct 17, 2014)

MrDurden said:


> Vegans are silly, but I still want to be able to sell to them, ya know?



You may want to consider a different public expression of that sentiment, in my opinion.  I'm not a vegan, but it's a very disconcerting feeling reading some of your posts.


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## CanaDawn (Oct 17, 2014)

sagehill said:


> With all this processing, no wonder most seed oils go rancid so quickly.



um....doesn't that have more to do with the specific fatty acids in the particular oil, and things like exposure to air rather than the processing?  Oil kept properly stores about as long as the seeds, I find.


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## sagehill (Oct 17, 2014)

Think about all the air that the seed oils are exposed to while being squeezed and tossed and rotated, etc during processing.


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## CanaDawn (Oct 17, 2014)

sagehill said:


> Think about all the air that the seed oils are exposed to while being squeezed and tossed and rotated, etc during processing.



How is it different to other oil extractions, and why would some seeds still have different rancidity than others?


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## MrDurden (Oct 18, 2014)

Fairy said:


> Do you live near a Costco's or Sam's club by any chance? I usually buy olive oil and coconut oil in bulk a Costco for a decent price. I think I picked up a big bottle of avocado oil from there once too. I believe their coconut oil is USDA certified, and I think they sell USDA EVOO as well. Might be worth looking at.
> 
> Whole Foods also sells quite a wide variety of organic/non-GMO cooking oils as well. Their cosmetic oils are nice, but tend to be more expensive. They sell butters in small amounts as well, but I've no idea about the quality.



I get olive oil from Costco. Best price I've found.


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## valerieinthegallery (Apr 18, 2015)

I know this thread is a bit old (I found it through a search), but I had to giggle at some of the Burt's Bees comments. That poor guy was ousted from his own company (for personal, not business reasons) and whoever said he doesn't even use the money he was given - that's pretty much accurate. For a while, he was living in a chicken coop! I think he has upgraded since then, but he still doesn't have running water in his "house". 

My son ran into him on Maine Maple Sunday a little bit ago, and had a great little conversation with him about this and that. As they finished talking, he shook my son's hand and says "By the way, I'm Burt. Nice to meet you." 

LOL. He thought my son didn't know who he was - my son had just watched a documentary about him a few nights prior. 

Burt's a funny guy.


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