# Fumes, Temperatures, Glass/Stainless (No Plastic)



## AZJen (Jul 21, 2019)

After a day of research, I wanted to make soap. And then I found an old thread on fumes. I used lye-based drain cleaner a few times years ago and thought it was absolutely awful. I'd hate to make a business or hobby of anything that smells so bad.

Also, I think not as a renter (I do not want to replace expensive components of someone else's home) with a bird, a cat, and my own health to protect--unless there's a way to prevent the toxicity and corrosion. Someone said ice cubes help prevent fumes. Another said they also help prevent (or slow way down?) etching of glass.

The only location in my apartment that makes sense to me is a bathroom  (for door closed) with the vent on, but someone said that their kitchen vent corroded from the ‘fumes’ so now I’m concerned that there are probably metal fan blades in the wall that could rust or corrode, and there are metal fixtures throughout the bathroom. (Others have said they’ve never seen corrosion on metal near to their mixing station. I suppose it depends on the type of metal, quality of the fixtures, and perhaps how quickly the vapors disperse/dilute.) Additionally, the bathroom may take a while to completely air out. A WWII style vapor filter may protect my lungs, but the bathroom may be unusable for a day? (Some have said just a few minutes of fumes--most noticeable if head placed over the mixing container which they try to never do. If only a few minutes of fumes, I wonder at what starting temperature their ingredients are. Hot mixtures steam for as long as they’re hot, I’ve read.) Also worth noting is that some people can handle really noxious chemical smells in their homes, garages, etc. that I cannot. I don’t paint my nails or wear fake nails, but just as an example, walking into a nail salon for just a few seconds would be enough of a shock to my system  to make  me leave.

If I don't start with ice for the lye solution, how hot would the initial solution be? I've heard that some soapers' solutions are reaching 200 degrees (near boiling). Maybe that's because they're starting with melted/heated oils.

And if I start with ice, how hot should I expect? I have a cat and parakeet that might be affected by even small amount of vapors which is the main reason I'm thinking to use ice cold water or ice itself. If not making the lye solution in a bathroom, perhaps outside would work.

I've read that distilled water is ideal. I'm not sure of the water used to make bagged ice.

I have read that etching of glass only occurs if the solution heats up quite a bit (to the 200 or so degrees that many soapers are working with). If I'm starting with ice cubes or ice cold water in a half gallon canning jar, the risk of that may be close to zero? Having not done this even once, I don't know how hot the solution will become if starting with cold water. Others have said that quality stainless is probably the way to go… for the lye solution, immersion blender, bowls, etc.

I aim to refrigerate my soaps, but fear that I’ll poison my food with vapors and have no money for an extra mini fridge.

I've read that saponification during the first 1-3 days also produces heat, but I don't know how much to expect with room temp oils and a lye solution produced with ice cubes or with room temperature water. Can anyone give a temperature range?
For long-term room temperature (80+ degrees this time of year) storage of the solution, I'm not sure if a plastic Ball canning jar lid would create a tight enough seal. The other other option would be a metal canning jar lid.

Those are my questions for now, but I’ll be away for the day and cannot reply until late.


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## cmzaha (Jul 21, 2019)

You are stressing way too much and as Relle mentioned in a former post maybe you should just go with melt and pour. 

1. As I mentioned to you in a message, you DO NOT use any type of glass to be on the safe side. It does not matter what the temp of the lye is. Etching can occur over time. Kinda wonder why I went to the trouble of messaging you when you apparently would rather believe what you read elsewhere. This forum has very knowledgable soapmakers and our resident chemist. Sorry, that may sound mean but I do not mean for it to. 

2. You will not poison food by putting soap in a fridge or freezer although uncovered food could pick up the scent. 

3. DO NOT use any type of metal and DO NOT store lye in glass jars. 
Number 2 and number 5 recycling codes on the bottom of plastic containers are suitable for long term or short term storage. Ball plastic canning containers will work since they are #5's but in my opinion, the lids are not tight enough for safe storage. I prefer jugs with safety caps especially if children are around. 
I did not necessarily answer the questions in the order posted above.


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## lsg (Jul 21, 2019)

If you have a window in your kitchen and a fan, you can soap in there.  If nothing else, mix your lye solution outside until the lye is dissolved and then take it into the soaping area.  I always use plastic for mixing the lye solution.  Glass can shatter.   I use room temp. distilled water for my soap.  The only time I freeze a liquid is if it contains sugars, such as milk, cream, beer, aloe juice etc.   You can check the temp. of the lye solution and oils with a thermometer.  120-130*F is a good temp for both lye solution and oils.   Many experts recommend that the temp. of the lye solution and oils be within a 10* range of each other.  I put my milk soap in the freezer without worry.  If you want the soap to gel, then insulate the mold with towels.  If you don't want gel, put it in the freezer.  I usually leave the soap in the freezer for 24-48 hours, depending on how much in a hurry I am to unmold.   I have still gotten partial gel when putting the soap in a refrigerator.  It can take as long as 48 hours for a soap to go completely through the gel phase.  I wouldn't recommend storing the soap in an airtight container.  Soap needs to cure, on a rack or where air can circulate, for 4 weeks or more.  A cardboard shoe box with a lid makes a decent storage container after the soap has cured.  Hope this helps.  Soaping101 and The Soap Queen are both great sources of info for a novice soaper.


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## AZJen (Jul 21, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> You are stressing way too much and as Relle mentioned in a former post maybe you should just go with melt and pour.
> 
> 1. As I mentioned to you in a message, you DO NOT use any type of glass to be on the safe side. It does not matter what the temp of the lye is. Etching can occur over time. Kinda wonder why I went to the trouble of messaging you when you apparently would rather believe what you read elsewhere. This forum has very knowledgable soapmakers and our resident chemist. Sorry, that may sound mean but I do not mean for it to.
> 
> ...



Thank you again for your input.

Please let's have a conversation without using strong language like "Kinda wonder why I went to the trouble of messaging you when you apparently..." to push each other into submission. It is an imperfect world with perfect solutions rarely possible. We all have our own concerns and priorities. You prefer plastic, for example, but I would really rather not--for *health* reasons (health reasons override the durability of the container in my book) after finding the university study mentioned to you privately.

You said privately that quality stainless should be fine.

I *was* leaning toward glass. You, however, privately said that etching of the glass can occur even if I use ice for the lye (more slowly if using ice than hot liquid). After receiving your feedback, I am *now* leaning toward stainless steel. But the main question that *remains* is at what speed etching of glass would occur if I use ice. I am wondering if the etching of glass might SO VERY slow (e.g., many years before breakage might occur) with the ice method that I could safely replace my Ball canning jar once every 6 months (using aged ones for beverages instead of soaping).

I would rather not soap at all than go with Melt and Pour.



lsg said:


> If you have a window in your kitchen and a fan, you can soap in there.  If nothing else, mix your lye solution outside until the lye is dissolved and then take it into the soaping area.  I always use plastic for mixing the lye solution.  Glass can shatter.   I use room temp. distilled water for my soap.  The only time I freeze a liquid is if it contains sugars, such as milk, cream, beer, aloe juice etc.   You can check the temp. of the lye solution and oils with a thermometer.  120-130*F is a good temp for both lye solution and oils.   Many experts recommend that the temp. of the lye solution and oils be within a 10* range of each other.  I put my milk soap in the freezer without worry.  If you want the soap to gel, then insulate the mold with towels.  If you don't want gel, put it in the freezer.  I usually leave the soap in the freezer for 24-48 hours, depending on how much in a hurry I am to unmold.   I have still gotten partial gel when putting the soap in a refrigerator.  It can take as long as 48 hours for a soap to go completely through the gel phase.  I wouldn't recommend storing the soap in an airtight container.  Soap needs to cure, on a rack or where air can circulate, for 4 weeks or more.  A cardboard shoe box with a lid makes a decent storage container after the soap has cured.  Hope this helps.  Soaping101 and The Soap Queen are both great sources of info for a novice soaper.



Thank you also for your input.

Yes, I was thinking to mix the lye outside until dissolved and cool enough to not off-gas/vaporize, then take it into the soaping area.

After reading a university study about plastics, I don't want to use them for soaping unless I must (e.g., ice cube trays). That is the reason I was considering glass. 'Cmzaha', however, says etching of the glass can occur even if I use ice for the lye (more slowly if using ice than hot liquid). So, unless the etching of glass is SO VERY slow with the ice method that I could safely replace my Ball canning jar once every 6 months, that leaves only quality stainless steel which has been said privately and publicly by others to be an acceptable material for lye solutions.

Per your feedback, it sounds like if I use ice, I'll need to let the solution return to room temp before mixing with room temp oils. Perhaps a large master batch of lye solution kept at room temperature for several soap batches.

I was thinking no gel and had read to refrigerate it. But if the freezer works better for preventing partial gel, thank you for the tip on that that, and to give it time to finish.

I was thinking only to keep the lye solution/dilution in an airtight container, not the soap. But per Cmzaha's feedback, I should not store the solution long-term in either glass or metal. So, I guess no long-term storage of it will be possible for me as I don't want to store it in plastic. (I know Cmzaha said that #2 and #5 plastics are suitable, but a recent university study on plasticizers/softeners/hardeners as they relate to health--not the durability of the container--suggests not.) I, therefore, will have to make it each time I soap instead of making a large master batch.

I found The Soap Queen but have not yet visited Soaping101.



Jennifer Everett said:


> Thank you again for your input.
> 
> You said privately that quality stainless should be fine.
> 
> After reading a university study about plastics, I don't want to use them for soaping unless I must (e.g., ice cube trays). That is the reason I was considering glass. You, however, said etching of the glass can occur even if I use ice for the lye (more slowly if using ice than hot liquid). So, unless the etching of glass is SO VERY slow with the ice method that I could safely replace my Ball canning jar once every 6 months, that leaves only quality stainless steel which has been said privately by you and publicly by others to be an acceptable material for lye solutions.





cmzaha said:


> You are stressing way too much and as Relle mentioned in a former post maybe you should just go with melt and pour.
> 
> 1. As I mentioned to you in a message, you DO NOT use any type of glass to be on the safe side. It does not matter what the temp of the lye is. Etching can occur over time. Kinda wonder why I went to the trouble of messaging you when you apparently would rather believe what you read elsewhere. This forum has very knowledgable soapmakers and our resident chemist. Sorry, that may sound mean but I do not mean for it to.
> 
> ...





Jennifer Everett said:


> Thank you again for your input.
> 
> I would like to kindly request that we have a conversation without using strong language like "Kinda wonder why I went to the trouble of messaging you when you apparently..." to push each other into submission. It is an imperfect world with perfect solutions rarely possible. We all have our own concerns and priorities. You prefer plastic, for example, but I would really rather not--for health reasons after finding the university study mentioned to you privately. I also have a tendency to not just accept one person's opinion (yours or anyone else's) and run with it. I've had experts give me answers on other subjects that I knew from personal experience to be wrong. (E.g., fungus gnat larvae DO eat healthy roots no matter what anyone says.) That's why I'm asking questions *here* instead of just going on the information I've read elsewhere.
> 
> ...


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## Dahila (Jul 21, 2019)

you are renting, if anything happens you will be responsible.   I do not know how it is in States but in Canada you can only register your business in your private home, not semi or townhouse,  Some insurances would not insure if they know that you make soap,  I am in  Canada, it maybe easier in US ,  anyway try just to do melt and pour.


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## AZJen (Jul 21, 2019)

Dahila said:


> you are renting, if anything happens you will be responsible.   I do not know how it is in States but in Canada you can only register your business in your private home, not semi or townhouse,  Some insurances would not insure if they know that you make soap,  I am in  Canada, it maybe easier in US ,  anyway try just to do melt and pour.



That is a good question before spending any money on this! 

I'd rather not do melt and pour.


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## dibbles (Jul 21, 2019)

Something else to consider re mixing your lye solution in glass. Aside from the etching - which does happen and to my knowledge there is no way to accurately predict when a problem with that will occur - is the issue of accidentally dropping the lye solution. Plastic or stainless doesn't break but glass almost certainly will. Cleaning up a lye spill involving broken glass would make a bad situation so much worse. 

I use a stainless steel frothing pitcher to use my lye. It has a handle and when I have to move it I hold the handle with one hand and place my other hand under the pitcher. I don't masterbatch since I am a hobby soaper and make fairly small batches.

I really believe that mixing the lye solution is the biggest hurdle for new soap makers. I think everyone is intimidated and nervous about it at first. I know I was. After you have done it a couple of times, you will become more comfortable with it.


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## steffamarie (Jul 21, 2019)

Quality stainless should be fine for soapmaking. Other metals can be dangerous. Glass will etch over time but there is no way to measure how bad the etching has become and you put yourself at great risk if you continue to use it. You would never know when it would be too dangerous to use. Plastic is the option most soapmakers, including myself, choose. What did this study say about it that you read? 

Also I would not use any materials used for soapmaking for food/drink - especially glass. 

As far as the fumes go, I simply mix my solution in a well-ventilated area and lean away to breathe or hold my breath during the initial mixing. Using ice will create less fuming. I leave my (plastic) container aside while it cools and never notice any fumes unless I'm standing right over it. I also masterbatch my solution in a large pitcher and cover it lightly while it cools. The cooling process can take hours, but the steam condenses on the lid and drips back into the pitcher. Then I decant the whole cooled thing into a thick-walled #5 plastic airtight jug with a pour spout for use as needed. That way I don't have to deal with mixing and cooling every time I want to make soap.

I have a cat and she stays pretty far away from whatever I'm doing. If she gets a whiff of something she doesn't like, she runs away. If your cat is more curious than Kiki, it's probably best to mix your solution outside. 

Mine heats up over the boiling point if I start with room temperature water, but if I use all ice I can keep it under 90ish. 

I also rent and have not noticed any damage or weird things happening after a year of soapmaking.


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## AZJen (Jul 21, 2019)

I now must leave for a long day of work far from home so cannot reply until late tonight.


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## Dahila (Jul 21, 2019)

years ago I had scored fantastic 3 quart bowl in Home Scense,   Stainless made in Us, so not the chine poor quality one.  it has a handle so very easy to carry from my garage to downstairs,  I am being extra careful.   I got also 1.5q stainless cup but it was made in Chine and as I suspected it rusted almost immediately.  When using lye do not safe on good quality stainless cup.  It is worth it  and good luck with a new adventure


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## IrishLass (Jul 21, 2019)

Hi Jennifer- I believe Carolyn (cmzaha) was specifying to not store your lye solution in metal (you had mentioned using a metal canning lid).  Certain metals do not play nice with lye, such as aluminum, for example.

Re: plastics: Certain plastics should never be used with lye, but there are two that _are_ safe: HDPE #2,  and PP#5. I mix my lye in a tall Rubbermaid pitcher made of PP #5, and I store my lye solution long term in a (thoroughly washed/rinsed) reclaimed liquid laundry detergent bottle with a tight-fitting screw-top cover all made of HDPE #5. I master-batch my lye and it lasts forever in my reclaimed detergent bottle without harm to the plastic or the lye (for 2 years and counting).  

Re: glass: please, please, please do not use glass, neither for mixing lye solution and especially not for storing lye solution. SMF administration has taken the position that you are playing Russian Roulette when you use glass, because more than enough folks have reported their tempered glass shatter when soaping with it. You might be able to get away with it for 6 months, maybe even longer than that, but then again, maybe only a week or just a mere day (as some have reported happening to them with brand-new tempered glass pitchers)......you just never know when it's going to succumb to whatever stresses have been put upon it, because you don't even know what stresses were put upon it sitting on the shelf at the store before you even bought it, i.e. being banged around, etc....(seemingly benign bumping/banging can also have a negative effect on the integrity of glass).  

For what it's worth, I also do home-canning of food and there have been a few times when I've had a brand-new Ball canning jar break during their first canning session (the bottoms broke right off while in my pot).  And I recently had 2 borosilicate lab beakers break on me within the past 2 months. They accidentally slipped out of my slippery/soapy hand while washing in the sink (I use them to make after-shave and lotion in them). They dropped from only a mere 1" to 2" height from my hand to the bottom of the sink- a very minute drop they should have survived (and have before) with flying colors, but this time they didn't.

Quality stainless steel is fine to soap in. My soaping vessels that I mix my soap batter in are quality stainless steel and they are all still in great shape after 13+ years of soaping in them.  I don't know that I'd store my lye solution in them long-term, though, like I do in my #2 plastic, which has proven to be non-reactive for the lengths that I've stored my concentrated lye solution in it. I'm not sure how much leaching or corrosion might or might not take place with stainless steel being in constant contact with concentrated lye solution for over a year or more. That's something I haven't personally tested. Maybe others can chime in on that.

Re: using ice. I don't ever use ice. I mix my lye into room temp distilled water and although the solution gets quite hot while mixing, it has never, ever reached the boiling point for me yet..........except for that one time I had put honey in the distilled water before I added the lye to it. Yikes! However, adding diluted honey to _already prepared_ and cooled lye solution does not get anywhere near to the boiling point....only to about 160-ish F for me.    


IrishLass


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## cmzaha (Jul 21, 2019)

IL is so much more diplomatic than me  She knows what she is talking about


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## AZJen (Jul 22, 2019)

Thank you all for your responses today! I got home supremely late and have to be up early--with lots of work tomorrow but should have time to reply then.


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## AZJen (Jul 22, 2019)

Dahila said:


> years ago I had scored fantastic 3 quart bowl in Home Scense,   Stainless made in Us, so not the chine poor quality one.  it has a handle so very easy to carry from my garage to downstairs,  I am being extra careful.   I got also 1.5q stainless cup but it was made in Chine and as I suspected it rusted almost immediately.  When using lye do not safe on good quality stainless cup.  It is worth it  and good luck with a new adventure



Your big bowl with handle sounds like a great buy!



dibbles said:


> Something else to consider re mixing your lye solution in glass. Aside from the etching - which does happen and to my knowledge there is no way to accurately predict when a problem with that will occur - is the issue of accidentally dropping the lye solution. Plastic or stainless doesn't break but glass almost certainly will. Cleaning up a lye spill involving broken glass would make a bad situation so much worse.
> 
> I use a stainless steel frothing pitcher to use my lye. It has a handle and when I have to move it I hold the handle with one hand and place my other hand under the pitcher. I don't masterbatch since I am a hobby soaper and make fairly small batches.
> 
> I really believe that mixing the lye solution is the biggest hurdle for new soap makers. I think everyone is intimidated and nervous about it at first. I know I was. After you have done it a couple of times, you will become more comfortable with it.



YES YES YES, cleaning broken glass with liquid lye everywhere sounds like a pure nightmare. Something to be avoided at all costs. Thank you for giving more information on the *extreme* unpredictability of the etching.



steffamarie said:


> Quality stainless should be fine for soapmaking. Other metals can be dangerous. Glass will etch over time but there is no way to measure how bad the etching has become and you put yourself at great risk if you continue to use it. You would never know when it would be too dangerous to use. Plastic is the option most soapmakers, including myself, choose. What did this study say about it that you read?
> 
> Also I would not use any materials used for soapmaking for food/drink - especially glass.
> 
> ...



Thank you greatly for the details of your reply such as temperatures! Under 90ish doesn't sound bad! Yes, I think I'd like to start with ice to minimize the vaporization of lye. (I've read that it happens while hot, not just during the first few minutes, but perhaps that was misinformation.)

I have read elsewhere, too, that other metals can be dangerous--not ever to be used. It is great to know that I would never know when it would be too dangerous to use. The combination of this information and the possibly of cleaning up liquid lye AND broken glass is enough to convince me to not use glass. Last night, I emailed those who performed the study to see if they have more information that could help soapers, but I did see in the report that UV exposure made PP leach estrogenic hardeners, softeners, and antioxidants (those that cause cancer) MUCH more quickly and severely. The study didn't provide enough detail to answer all questions, but here's a summary of what they found: "This leaching of monomers and additives from a plastic item into its contents is often accelerated if the product is exposed to common-use stresses such as ultraviolet (UV) radiation in sunlight, microwave radiation, and/or moist heat via boiling or dishwashing. The exact chemical composition of almost any commercially available plastic part is proprietary and not known. A single part may consist of 5–30 chemicals, and a plastic item containing many parts (e.g., a baby bottle) may consist of ≥ 100 chemicals, almost all of which can leach from the product, especially when stressed. Unless the selection of chemicals is carefully controlled, some of those chemicals will almost certainly have EA, and even when using all materials that initially test EA free, the stresses of manufacturing can change chemical structures or create chemical reactions to convert an EA-free chemical into one with EA." Salt water and ethanol were some of the other stressors tested on various types of plastics. 

My cat LOVES to be near me in the kitchen or anywhere else, but if she caught of whiff of lye, she'd probably bolt and wait for me to come to her. The apartment is big enough that a small amount of fumes released for only a few minutes under a vent (with infrequent batches) may disperse to safe levels for a parakeet and cat. Parakeets are more chemically sensitive than cats. I've heard that teflon pans (not something I would ever use) heated too much has killed parakeets.



IrishLass said:


> Hi Jennifer- I believe Carolyn (cmzaha) was specifying to not store your lye solution in metal (you had mentioned using a metal canning lid).  Certain metals do not play nice with lye, such as aluminum, for example.
> 
> Re: plastics: Certain plastics should never be used with lye, but there are two that _are_ safe: HDPE #2,  and PP#5. I mix my lye in a tall Rubbermaid pitcher made of PP #5, and I store my lye solution long term in a (thoroughly washed/rinsed) reclaimed liquid laundry detergent bottle with a tight-fitting screw-top cover all made of HDPE #5. I master-batch my lye and it lasts forever in my reclaimed detergent bottle without harm to the plastic or the lye (for 2 years and counting).
> 
> ...



Hi, IL. Thank you for the clarification that Carolyn (cmzaha) was probably specifying to not store lye solution in metal (e.g., the metal canning lid). I see!

It is good to know that the named plastics can withstand the alkalinity and heat of soaping, but with regard to health, last night I e-mailed the scientists who studied the release of estrogenic chemicals from plastics (including HDPE and PP but without numbers specified)--those which cause cancer--to see if they can shed light on the relative safety of mixing and storing in HDPE #2 and PP #5. If I decide to store a lye solution long-term, a reclaimed laundry detergent bottle is a great idea! And if the safety of long-term storage of lye solution in stainless is unknown, I'll have to make small batches: one by one.  

Hearing of the breakage during your very first use of *several* Ball canning jars was enough to convince me to not use glass. As others have stated and you have experienced, I really would not be able to assume safety for even a short period of time. 

I'd like to avoid the gel phase by keeping everything cool and refrigerating or *freezing*, as one person suggested, immediately upon pouring... So, I guess I'll skip the honey, too. Unless I decide to insulate with towels for a honey batch. But again, for me, until I get more details form the scientists on the estrogenic (estrogen/cancer) effects of plastics, I hesitate to allow much heat to contact plastic liners/molds or perhaps even silicone molds. Short periods of heat would be safer than hours, and lower heat better than high. Seeing from the study that things which stress plastics usually release those EA chemicals into the product has led me to feel more cautious than many people feel comfortable with. (I'm often mocked by my landlord for trying to reduce my risk that much.. He says "100%" even though he doesn't realize that right now I eat plenty of NONorganic food which increases my risk. It's largely a matter of controlling what I'm able to, within my budget.)



cmzaha said:


> IL is so much more diplomatic than me  She knows what she is talking about



Haha!  My stress is gone.

I'm not sure how to express this next sentiment, but perhaps I would say that I think I've observed how more details are oftentimes needed to resolve questions/feelings of, "Why did you do that?"


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## KristaY (Jul 22, 2019)

Hi Jennifer! I see you're in Phoenix  Have you been to Arizona Soap Supply yet? They have classes on soap making so I think you should check it out. I'm not sure how the classes are as I've never been but it's a resource close to you and might answer a lot of your beginner's questions. Here's the link to Soap Making Class 101:

https://www.arizonasoapsupply.com/product/soap-making-class-101/


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## steffamarie (Jul 22, 2019)

Jennifer Everett said:


> Seeing from the study that things which stress plastics usually release those EA chemicals into the product has led me to feel more cautious than many people feel comfortable with.



So here's my next line of thought. Supposing that plastics including silicone do release these chemicals, I'd like to posit the question: even if they were released in amounts that are capable of causing physiologic effect on humans (such as causing cancer), how susceptible is the skin being washed by the soap to absorbing these chemicals? Can they be ABSORBED in quantities capable of causing an effect? Are they quickly metabolized by the liver/kidneys? Do they increase the risk of adverse effects enough to make a difference to you personally as to whether you'd use them or not? 

I realize many of these may be rhetorical/unanswerable questions - I just want to continue down the path that you've begun to think along. Is it something that poses a large enough risk to your health that you don't feel comfortable even attempting it? Or can you accept the risk when weighed against the benefits? 

There are lots of things that we come into contact with on a daily basis that COULD harm us. But you only live once, you know? So it's up to you to balance risk vs benefit in this case, but also in many other situations daily. For me, soap making is fun, satisfying, a good creative outlet, and produces something that I can share with my friends and family. I would be using commercial body wash otherwise - and that's sure to be full of things that are not totally natural (and also would be manufactured in a manner that probably doesn't comply with the process you're proposing). 

I think this is a good dialogue. It's always good for us to be aware of our surroundings.


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## cmzaha (Jul 22, 2019)

steffamarie said:


> So here's my next line of thought. Supposing that plastics including silicone do release these chemicals, I'd like to posit the question: even if they were released in amounts that are capable of causing physiologic effect on humans (such as causing cancer), how susceptible is the skin being washed by the soap to absorbing these chemicals? Can they be ABSORBED in quantities capable of causing an effect? Are they quickly metabolized by the liver/kidneys? Do they increase the risk of adverse effects enough to make a difference to you personally as to whether you'd use them or not?
> 
> I realize many of these may be rhetorical/unanswerable questions - I just want to continue down the path that you've begun to think along. Is it something that poses a large enough risk to your health that you don't feel comfortable even attempting it? Or can you accept the risk when weighed against the benefits?
> 
> ...


Well said.


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## AZJen (Jul 22, 2019)

steffamarie said:


> So here's my next line of thought. Supposing that plastics including silicone do release these chemicals, I'd like to posit the question: even if they were released in amounts that are capable of causing physiologic effect on humans (such as causing cancer), how susceptible is the skin being washed by the soap to absorbing these chemicals? Can they be ABSORBED in quantities capable of causing an effect? Are they quickly metabolized by the liver/kidneys? Do they increase the risk of adverse effects enough to make a difference to you personally as to whether you'd use them or not?
> 
> I realize many of these may be rhetorical/unanswerable questions - I just want to continue down the path that you've begun to think along. Is it something that poses a large enough risk to your health that you don't feel comfortable even attempting it? Or can you accept the risk when weighed against the benefits?
> 
> ...




It's the risk to whoever is using the soap, myself or customers, that concerns me largely because the researchers were very concerned about the laboratory effects of what was extracted from most of the products on the market. (They know of safe alternative chemicals at very little cost increase to manufacturers and are proposing a change to the manufacturing of plastics.) But I was wondering the same thing last night--how much risk is there to have these things in soap that's immediately washed off of the skin. If there are no unsaponified oils remaining in the soap, there may be little risk from the soap itself. Synthethic/Plastic fibers in clothing (making up most of the clothing on the market) probably present a far higher risk, including that the fibers etc. end up at the waste water processing plant and possibly in our tap water.

There are many things in our environment that I'm certain DO harm us. For example, third hand smoke (the residue that lands everywhere and even enters schools and then circulates throughout them via the cooling system) that reacts with other chemicals in the environment to produce even more cancer-causing chemicals. My landlord smokes in the yard next to my organic vegetable garden, and his landscapers spray Roundup right outside my yard. There's only so much we can do, but I don't like to contribute to the collective problem any more than I have to. (That said, I do contribute to the problem in various ways. For example, I wear some synthetic fibers and use them to clean instead of investing in a 100% organic cotton or linen wardrobe.)

If it is true that if we can't find a better alternative, we'll have to go with an unknown from elsewhere. And if we can't, then it's best to not worry about what's not possible to change. *But  if there is an easy enough alternative, I see no reason to not use it. Additionally, no planetary progress will happen if everyone takes the easier road. Striving to improve upon the old/existing is how things improve.*



KristaY said:


> Hi Jennifer! I see you're in Phoenix  Have you been to Arizona Soap Supply yet? They have classes on soap making so I think you should check it out. I'm not sure how the classes are as I've never been but it's a resource close to you and might answer a lot of your beginner's questions. Here's the link to Soap Making Class 101:
> 
> https://www.arizonasoapsupply.com/product/soap-making-class-101/



Thank you, Krista!


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## earlene (Jul 23, 2019)

Jennifer Everett said:


> *But  if there is an easy enough alternative, I see no reason to not use it. Additionally, no planetary progress will happen if everyone takes the easier road. Striving to improve upon the old/existing is how things improve.*



I think that is the main point to consider in this question:  Is it an easy enough alternative?  Using high quality stainless steel instead of plastic or silicone for soap making: mixing bowls, utensils, measuring cups/pouring vessels, lye solution mixing and long term storage for master-batched lye solution, etc. etc. should certainly be possible, but at very high cost.  Doable, for some, not for others.  And to pass the cost on to customers, one would run into other challenges as well.

My point is that what may be easy for you (if you have the where-with-all) is not necessarily easy for every soap maker.


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## steffamarie (Jul 23, 2019)

I am totally on board with reducing one's impact on the environment. I think if you have the resources and capital available to make your soapmaking comply with the suggestions made by the researchers who conducted this study, then go for it! I'd also encourage correlating the results of this study with other similar research to have the best possible understanding of what's happening when these plastics are "stressed". One study isn't really a large enough body of evidence.

I wonder if this is a case of fighting the wrong fight. We should be concerned about what we're allowing into the environment, but there are things we all can do that will make a much larger difference. Choosing public transport or bicycling, carpooling, reducing use of fossil fuels. Recycling anything - properly - and reducing landfill waste. These things can be easily done on a wide scale and will have the greatest impact on the environment as a whole. If the manufacturing process of plastics CAN be changed, then that may help, but that's out of our control.

For me, it won't change my practice. As a hobbyist, I'm not concerned enough that any hormones leached from plastic will be enough to make any sort of impact on my body. The money I would need to spend on supplies would be prohibitive to me enjoying my creative outlet, so for me it just doesn't make sense. And at any rate, I think it's a better focus for me to try to modify my diet and exercise to keep my body healthy. Your mileage may vary, of course.


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## AZJen (Jul 23, 2019)

earlene said:


> I think that is the main point to consider in this question:  Is it an easy enough alternative?  Using high quality stainless steel instead of plastic or silicone for soap making: mixing bowls, utensils, measuring cups/pouring vessels, lye solution mixing and long term storage for master-batched lye solution, etc. etc. should certainly be possible, but at very high cost.  Doable, for some, not for others.  And to pass the cost on to customers, one would run into other challenges as well.
> 
> My point is that what may be easy for you (if you have the where-with-all) is not necessarily easy for every soap maker.



Those things are not in my budget unless perhaps used. So, I will wait until I can invest in that type of equipment before starting.



steffamarie said:


> I am totally on board with reducing one's impact on the environment. I think if you have the resources and capital available to make your soapmaking comply with the suggestions made by the researchers who conducted this study, then go for it! I'd also encourage correlating the results of this study with other similar research to have the best possible understanding of what's happening when these plastics are "stressed". One study isn't really a large enough body of evidence.
> 
> I wonder if this is a case of fighting the wrong fight. We should be concerned about what we're allowing into the environment, but there are things we all can do that will make a much larger difference. Choosing public transport or bicycling, carpooling, reducing use of fossil fuels. Recycling anything - properly - and reducing landfill waste. These things can be easily done on a wide scale and will have the greatest impact on the environment as a whole. If the manufacturing process of plastics CAN be changed, then that may help, but that's out of our control.
> 
> For me, it won't change my practice. As a hobbyist, I'm not concerned enough that any hormones leached from plastic will be enough to make any sort of impact on my body. The money I would need to spend on supplies would be prohibitive to me enjoying my creative outlet, so for me it just doesn't make sense. And at any rate, I think it's a better focus for me to try to modify my diet and exercise to keep my body healthy. Your mileage may vary, of course.



The effects are well known enough (through several studies, not just one) for many manufacturers to have switched to BPA-free plastic. What they don't tell the consumer, however, is that they often replace BPA with another estrogenic plasticizer as bad or worse.

That said, I mentioned the study not to change the ways of anyone in this forum--only because you asked about it and because I felt it good to explain why I personally don't want to use plastics unless necessary and, where I must, with lower-temperature oils that won't cook in plastic.

My own view is that this is not the wrong fight. It's just one of many, a drop in the bucket. We live in a very imperfect world that I fear will get worse at a faster pace than it will improve. But that my landlord's landscapers spray Roundup outside of my organic veggie garden and thirdhand smoke makes its way onto my garden doesn't suggest to me that I should stop my organic gardening efforts and go "hog wild" with chemicals (e.g., pesticides) and cancer-causing substances. My efforts will reduce the overall burden on my body.

But, again, there is only so much that each one of us *can* do. I understand that we are each more capable of some changes than others. Carpooling for you may be easier than using stainless in parts of the soaping process whereas stainless would be an easier change for me to make. I mentioned the study not to twist anyone's arm, only to explain my own questions and concerns for the process I am trying to design for myself.


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## earlene (Jul 23, 2019)

I think it is a step on the right direction, *AZJen*, and I am glad you are following your conscious on this.  I have tried to convince my loved ones not to heat food in plastic containers in the microwave oven; apparently some heed and some do not.  I find the evidence when I look at the plastic containers with burnt & peeling inside surfaces in the cupboards.  If that's in my kitchen, it gets tossed.  If my husband doesn't care, at his age, he can make that decision for himself, of course.  But I will not re-use that container.  Less for what I know it will leach into the food that may later be stored in it, but for I don't know may leach into the food.  But really, even more because I know that the damaged surfaces of the interior of the plastic too easily escapes proper cleaning and can facilitate pockets for contamination inside the container.  So for me that is a big deal for food containers.  A smooth surface is important to me when storing food inside the fridge or elsewhere.

Of course I don't cross-contaminate food storage and soap making containers made of plastic.  I really do believe that to be unwise, no matter how well they are cleaned.  But some folks report that the stainless steel containers they use for soap do dual duty with food usage.  I do have several SS containers I use for soap making, but only one of them have I ever used for food after making soap in it.  It's a good size to hold a bag of  micro-waved popcorn, so I've used it for that once or twice.  But other than that, I just keep my soaping supplies and food making supplies separate because it is easier for me.  If I lived in a smaller house or an apartment, however, I think I would not worry about using SS for both soap and food and could reduce the number of over-all containers in my home.


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## steffamarie (Jul 23, 2019)

I apologize if I seemed like I was accusing you of attempting to change the practices of the forum at large - I simply wanted to convey my thought process. 

On a slightly different note, I brought up the subject to my boyfriend who works in the plastics industry. He confirmed that plastics labeled BPA-free are pretty much a scam, containing other plasticizers and compounds that are just as bad or worse. He did say, though, that the process for making silicone is extremely different and doesn't require any plasticizers like the compounds that are in question. It's possible that that might help you decide whether or not to include those products in your soapmaking arsenal.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 23, 2019)

AZJen said:


> Those things are not in my budget unless perhaps used. So, I will wait until I can invest in that type of equipment before starting.



The thrift store is a great place to look for stainless steel at a bargain price.  I sometimes see Revere Ware or Farberware cooking pots, which if you don’t mind the handles, would be perfect for making small batches of soap.  I’ve managed to find stainless steel bowls of various sizes that I purchased for a couple of dollars each.  I don’t know where you are on silicone, but I also see silicone spatulas all the time, and my favorite SS spoon for mixing lye is also from the thrift store.

I know a scientist who is very active in pollutant research.  In his younger days, his research contributed to the eventual US ban on flame retardants in sleepwear for children.  He thinks “micro” plastic contaminants are one of the greatest environmental threats of our time.  I cringe a little when I see people heating their lunch in a plastic container because that potential exposure can be avoided easily with the sacrifice of only a little convenience.  My goal is always to minimize exposure to any compounds that may have long term health risks, but it’s not always easy or practical.  Plastics are increasingly everywhere, but with the right equipment we should be able to minimize them in our soaps.  Considering relative risks, I personally am not ready to rule out the use of high quality plastic containers in soap making because I feel they make the activity safer in other ways.  However, I appreciate your perspectives on the matter and consider them good food for thought.


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## AZJen (Jul 25, 2019)

steffamarie said:


> I apologize if I seemed like I was accusing you of attempting to change the practices of the forum at large - I simply wanted to convey my thought process.
> 
> On a slightly different note, I brought up the subject to my boyfriend who works in the plastics industry. He confirmed that plastics labeled BPA-free are pretty much a scam, containing other plasticizers and compounds that are just as bad or worse. He did say, though, that the process for making silicone is extremely different and doesn't require any plasticizers like the compounds that are in question. It's possible that that might help you decide whether or not to include those products in your soapmaking arsenal.



I appreciate that you shared your thought process, Steffamarie, and thank you for clarifying that you were not accusing me of attempting to change the practices of the forum at large.

I also very much appreciate the suggestion that silicone might be a safer choice for molds and such. I had assumed worse but hadn't researched it, yet. (I now have a conventional-turned-naturopath doctor of a customer. He may also be able to shed some light on the matter.) After your suggestion, a brief Google search turned up rough confirmation (third party reports) that silicones don't contain plasticizers and similar compounds. I also found this helpful page which suggests that lower temperatures even with high fat products may be fine even for food use (e.g., baby bottles). I still don't know how hot soap gets while saponifying (it seems that most are letting this process happen outside of a refrigerator and with insulation from a towel), but I'm guessing much below 200 degrees. So, silicone may be the safer choice for molds as I think that even freezer paper has a plastic lining. But if saponification happens at a reasonably low temperature, even freezer paper may be acceptable from my perspective.
https://masonbottle.com/blogs/news/49464836-is-silicone-really-safe-will-it-ever-leach-chemicals

Oh, boy. Just found this. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4884743/
"In conclusion, it should be noted that the safety of application decreases with the decrease in silicone particle size. This is due to the possibility to overcome biological membranes and skin barriers by low molecular siloxanes, which demonstrate a lipophilic character according to the rule of Lipinski. The bioavailability and also permeation of compounds through the skin layers is possible, when they meet the following conditions (Lipinski, 2000; Lipinski et al., 2001; Mojsiewicz-Pieńkowska, 2014):


(1)
there are less than 5 hydrogen-bond donors (Expressed as the sum of hydroxide groups OHs and amine groups NHs);


(2)
molecular Weight is less than 500;


(3)
the Log P is less than 5;


(4)
there are less than 10 hydrogen-bond acceptors (expressed as the sum of nitrogens and oxygens).

Therefore, consideration of siloxanes toxicity should be always referred to a particular compound, which may be low molecular, medium molecular (oligomer) or a high molecular weight (polymer), but not to the entire chemical group. Actually, particle size and chemical structure determine their physicochemical properties (e.g., solubility, lipophilicity, log P, volatility), ability to penetrate and permeate through skin layers, ability to overcome cellular barriers and toxicity. Moreover, low molecular weight silicones can change the structure of lipid bilayer, by the fluidization or even extraction of the lipids (Glamowska et al., 2015; Mojsiewicz-Pieńkowska et al., 2015; Yang and Guy, 2015). This effect can weaken the natural barrier of cell membranes (Glamowska et al., 2015;Mojsiewicz-Pieńkowska et al., 2015). Low molecular weight silicones can accumulate in the organism, and affect the organs in the long-term perspective (Wang et al., 2013). The least safe are cyclic siloxanes and low molecular weight linear siloxanes (Flassbeck et al., 2001; Gaubitz et al., 2002; Papp et al., 2004; Tran et al., 2015; Xu et al., 2015). Additionally, their volatility poses a threat of entering to the organism through the respiratory system (Genualdi et al., 2011; Kierkegaard and McLachlan, 2013; Tran et al., 2015; Xu et al., 2015)."


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 25, 2019)

AZJen said:


> Oh, boy. Just found this.
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4884743/
> "In conclusion, it should be noted that the safety of application decreases with the decrease in silicone particle size. This is due to the possibility to overcome biological membranes and skin barriers by low molecular siloxanes, which demonstrate a lipophilic character according to the rule of Lipinski. The bioavailability and also permeation of compounds through the skin layers is possible, when they meet the following conditions (Lipinski, 2000; Lipinski et al., 2001; Mojsiewicz-Pieńkowska, 2014):
> ...


That article relates to exposure via application of very small particles on the skin or via ingestion. What you probably want to know is whether or not (or at what rate, e.g. very, very slowly) silicone molds or spatulas will release very small, molecular wt particles into soap batter.


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## AZJen (Jul 25, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> That article relates to exposure via application of very small particles on the skin or via ingestion. What you probably want to know is whether or not (or at what rate, e.g. very, very slowly) silicone molds or spatulas will release very small, molecular wt particles into soap batter.



It also mentioned inhalation (they volatilize, it appears). Thank you! I had assumed that products such as molds might contain none of the lower weight particles. I wonder who could answer such questions about what spatulas and molds (ice, soap, baking) are made of and, if they contain lower weight particles, at what rate they release into soap batter or water. Knowing the temperature range I might expect during saponification would help.


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## MGM (Jul 25, 2019)

I think there's also something to be said for the potential toxins that are in wash-off products vs potential toxins in food. My kids can't eat BHA, BHT, or TBHQ. Nor do I buy deodorant or lotions with those ingredients in them, due to absorption through the skin. However, many on this board swear by them as antioxidants. I probably wouldn't buy a wash-off product with those, just because there are other choices, but many soapers have found that those are necessary ingredients to achieve their ends.
I do put warm oils in plastic bowls and my moulds are silicone or milk cartons. I never heat any plastic in the microwave for any reason. We've all got our lines in the sand ;-)


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## jcandleattic (Jul 25, 2019)

Personally I think we all should be cautious about environmental elements around us, however, not to the point of being absolutely terrified of everything that could be potentially bad for us. If that were the case we would all just stay in bed with the covers over our heads and cower at life.
JMO - 
We have to decide what we are and are not comfortable with.


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## earlene (Jul 25, 2019)

AZJen said:


> It also mentioned inhalation (they volatilize, it appears). Thank you! I had assumed that products such as molds might contain none of the lower weight particles. I wonder who could answer such questions about what spatulas and molds (ice, soap, baking) are made of and, if they contain lower weight particles, at what rate they release into soap batter or water. Knowing the temperature range I might expect during saponification would help.




I would suspect you could contact a major producer of such items and request some feedback from one of their plastics engineers who may be able to address some of your concerns.  It may be a long shot that the company will pass your inquiry on, but worth a try.  One of my brothers has his degree as a plastics engineer and worked in the field for a number of years, but has been retired from it now for over a decade.  I don't think he has kept up with all the changes in the field since he left, because he has pursued other avenues of interest that require a lot of his time and energy.  Perhaps if you can find someone like that in your circle of acquaintances you might be able to get some answers, or even a referral to a forum where they talk with each other on topics such as this.

For the most part, however, I believe most silicone spatulas we use in soap maker were specifically designed for use as food preparation utensils and did not have soapmaking in mind when they were being developed and tested.  If you contact one of the major producers of such items, they are likely to state a disclaimer about using their products for activities other than their intended design purpose.


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## AZJen (Jul 28, 2019)

Based on the following statement, I'm guessing that silicone molds used for baking and soaping are made of the high molecular weight silicone polymers. "Polymers of moderate molecular weight are fluids, while high molecular weight, slightly cross-linked polymers are elastomeric. " https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/materials-science/material-science-products.html?TablePage=20204339

I'm presently leaning toward silicone molds, but I'll try to pick a few brains outside of this forum. Thank you greatly for your feedback!


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## Tasha (Jul 29, 2019)

Re: plastics: Certain plastics should never be used with lye, but there are two that _are_ safe: HDPE #2,  and PP#5. I mix my lye in a tall Rubbermaid pitcher made of PP #5, and I store my lye solution long term in a (thoroughly washed/rinsed) reclaimed liquid laundry detergent bottle with a tight-fitting screw-top cover all made of HDPE #5. I master-batch my lye and it lasts forever in my reclaimed detergent bottle without harm to the plastic or the lye (for 2 years and counting). 

IrishLass [/QUOTE]

Hi IrishLass, Thanks for your input. How do you master-batch your lye solution when each oil has a different lye amount that it will need or is your recipe constant? How does this work?


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## earlene (Jul 29, 2019)

Not IL, but the way one masterbatches lye is to mix the dry lye with the water at a specific amount (quite often 50% concentration - which equals 1:1 lye to water).  This is the masterbatch.

When one measures out he required amount of lye solution and add the extra water based on the specific recipe.  There is a calculation for figuring out how much more water is needed, but if you use the Soap Making Friend lye/soap calculator it will do the calculation for you.

If you use a different lye calculator, you will have to figure it out manually.  For a 33% lye concentration (or 1:2 lye to water) the calculation is:  (2 x the lye weight as ID'd by your lye calculator = the weight you need of your 50% masterbatch solution) + (1/2 the lye weight = the extra water weight).  That totals a 33% lye concentration.  There are many threads here at SMF that address masterbatching lye solution, so if you do a search you can find more detail about the calculations required.

But it's really nice to use a calculator that does the math for you, which is on reason why so many soapmakers are really liking the Soap Builder (Soap Making Friend) lye calculator here.


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## AZJen (Jul 29, 2019)

Yesterday, I found another study on siloxanes migrating into food.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d63b/8dae052a78719743c5007cd610572255e3a8.pdf

Long baking times, high fat foods, untempered molds (not sure how to find tempered molds since most product listings don't give that info.), and fat being absorbed by the silicone then leached back out (especially problematic if rancid and able to prematurely spoil a new batch) were the biggest problems named. Based on this study, I'd consider tempered molds used at lower temperatures (hopefully the batter doesn't heat up a lot during saponification; nobody has answered this question, yet, so I'll have to find out after investing in the equipment) and for a short duration (not long enough for the oils trapped in the mold to become rancid). Safely used silicone molds, parchment paper (which is lined with silicone), or freezer paper (lined with more silicone, I believe) for temporary use seem to be the only viable options.

What in the world did they do before the days of silicone is one lingering question! Since soap is said to not release from non-silicone molds with ease, I'm guessing the imperfections at the edges and bottom had to be cut off. More time and more waste were a part of life?


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## earlene (Jul 29, 2019)

AZJen said:


> Yesterday, I found another study on siloxanes migrating into food.
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d63b/8dae052a78719743c5007cd610572255e3a8.pdf
> 
> Long baking times, high fat foods, untempered molds (not sure how to find tempered molds since most product listings don't give that info.), and fat being absorbed by the silicone then leached back out (especially problematic if rancid and able to prematurely spoil a new batch) were the biggest problems named. Based on this study, I'd consider tempered molds used at lower temperatures (hopefully the batter doesn't heat up a lot during saponification; nobody has answered this question, yet, so I'll have to find out after investing in the equipment) and for a short duration (not long enough for the oils trapped in the mold to become rancid). Safely used silicone molds, parchment paper (which is lined with silicone), or freezer paper (lined with more silicone, I believe) for temporary use seem to be the only viable options.
> ...




AZJen, watch a video on the making of Allepo soap and you will see an old-world method of pouring and cutting soap that does not use any mold lining methods or molds as we know them.  They pour the soap on the floor and wait until it is ready to cut and remove for stamping and stacking.  It does not look like they have any waste to be concerned about.

Here is one:


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## AZJen (Jul 30, 2019)

Amazing, earlene! I'd found that video a few days ago but didn't watch it from start to finish until just now. The floor is covered in large sheets of wax paper before they pour. Maybe that paper has a thicker coating of wax than paper found here, and maybe the paper is thicker. I've read from some to turn the waxy side of the paper away from the soap, but then it seems the paper would bond to the soap. I guess I ought to watch a few more videos on that subject and read a few more threads.


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## earlene (Jul 30, 2019)

I doubt waxed paper was used centuries ago, though, considering that they say it is a centuries old method.  Perhaps linen or some other fabric may have been used, though.

Here is another link to lining molds with oil cloth, another alternative some soap makers use:



I don't know how you feel about oil cloth specifically, but it's another jumping off point for your own personal brainstorming when trying to think of alternatives to the materials you prefer to avoid.  My niece uses homemade diaper liners she makes using lanolin to waterproof fabric, just the same idea of how dusters were made waterproof for cowboys.  And pretty much the same way those beeswax wrappers are made for wrapping sandwiches.


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## Tasha (Aug 1, 2019)

earlene said:


> Not IL, but the way one masterbatches lye is to mix the dry lye with the water at a specific amount (quite often 50% concentration - which equals 1:1 lye to water).  This is the masterbatch.
> 
> When one measures out he required amount of lye solution and add the extra water based on the specific recipe.  There is a calculation for figuring out how much more water is needed, but if you use the Soap Making Friend lye/soap calculator it will do the calculation for you.
> 
> ...



Ohhh thanks, thats awesome. I never knew that. Thanks for the great explanation and the website to aid in this. I like the website too its pretty sleek. I'll have to start master batching. Thanks again!


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## AZJen (Aug 13, 2019)

Wikepedia is saying this about oil cloth:

*"Oilcloth*, also known as *enameled cloth* or *American cloth*, is close-woven cotton duck or linen cloth with a coating of boiled linseed oil to make it waterproof. Historically, pre-Mackintosh, oilcloth was one of very few flexible, waterproof materials that were widely available. Leather was expensive—very expensive in large pieces—and required regular maintenance if often wetted. Oilcloth was used as an outer waterproof layer for luggage, both wooden trunks[1] and flexible satchels, for carriages and for weatherproof clothing.[2]"

"By the late 1950s, oilcloth became a synonym for vinyl (polyvinyl chloride) bonded to either a flanneled cloth or a printed vinyl with a synthetic non-woven backing." [I note that vinyl at least sometimes contains phthalates.]​
Hardened linseed is basically very rancid flax seed oil, I think (but perhaps past the stage of being able to make other oils rancid???); so I'm not sure how that would affect soap. I guess it might depend on whether antioxidants are used and how prone to rancidity the soap's oils are.

Normally I avoid hydrogenated oils, but if the hydrogenated olive oil "silicone" is truly unsaponifiable, that may be the most promising 'liner' option, yet. I'm also thinking to try a micro batch (one bar), once I buy some lye, in very small stainless containers that I already have. If those work well enough once cured for enough time at room temp or after put in the freezer, it may be safe to assume that the same may be true for a larger container.


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## AZJen (Aug 13, 2019)

earlene said:


> I doubt waxed paper was used centuries ago, though, considering that they say it is a centuries old method.  Perhaps linen or some other fabric may have been used, though.
> 
> Here is another link to lining molds with oil cloth, another alternative some soap makers use:
> 
> ...





I will take a look at the oil cloths, earlene! And making my own cloth liners with lanolin seems a great possibility especially after reading that lanolin is almost completely unsaponifiable as well as used in some soaps. Whatever is saponifiable might be removed by the first batch. 

Additionally, I've been playing with three additional ideas. One is that soap may unmold from bare stainless steel if put in the freezer for a short while (15 minutes to 3 hours). I've heard that soapers do such with other molds. More cure time in the mold at room temperature may also cause enough shrinkage to release it from the stainless container. And the third idea is a really just a discovery. While looking at parchment paper lined with silicone (disposable seemed better than reusing silicone molds that absorb oils which can then become rancid), I found a product lined with a vegetable form of "silicone": https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075B7LBJ7/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=AWKM4HK9OSLXS&psc=1. Google then turned up some science about the product. It's (partly or completely?) hydrogenated olive oil that is not saponifiable (at least not with usual amounts of lye, I believe). Sounds promising! The word AND in the following description from a website seems to imply that some of the hydrogenated product is saponifiable. "*Vegetable-derived Silicon replacement with vegetable-derived squalene* – _Hydrogenated Ethylhexyl Olivate and Hydrogenated Olive Oil Unsaponifiables"_


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## AZJen (Aug 13, 2019)

Wikepedia is saying this about saponification values:

*"Percentage of unsaponifiables[edit]*
The percentage of unsaponifiable material varies with the substance:


low percentage (<1%) : refined oils, refined shea butter, olive oil
high percentage (6–17%): unrefined shea butter
very high percentage (≥50%): beeswax
unsaponifiable (~100%) mineral oil, paraffin wax"
I am now wondering if it might work to use a cloth to thinly coat stainless molds or cloth for lining wooden or plastic molds with a mix of something mostly unsaponifiable: perhaps that hydrogenated olive oil product and lanolin or mineral oil and beeswax.


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## IrishLass (Aug 13, 2019)

AZJen said:


> I am now wondering if it might work to use a cloth to thinly coat stainless molds or cloth for lining wooden or plastic molds with a mix of something mostly unsaponifiable: perhaps that hydrogenated olive oil product and lanolin or mineral oil and beeswax.



I use mineral oil to 'grease' my individual, decorative soaping molds made of plastic. It works great. 


IrishLass


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## AZJen (Aug 14, 2019)

Jojoba oil is about 48% unsaponifiable and, therefore, could also work for coating stainless or similar molds of choice.


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## Lin19687 (Aug 14, 2019)

AZJen said:


> Jojoba oil is about 48% unsaponifiable and, therefore, could also work for coating stainless or similar molds of choice.


NO, No it can't


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## jcandleattic (Aug 14, 2019)

What @Lin19687 said. You'd end up with soap that didn't come cleanly away from any intricate type of molds with patterns, if you tried to unmold too soon.


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## AZJen (Aug 14, 2019)

I was thinking to wait enough time (until the soap is shrinking away from the sides) and to use simple forms like pans.

Others have put soap in the freezer for short periods of time to help it release from their molds. Has anyone tried this with bare stainless or with some kind of unsaponifiable coating like mineral oil?


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## IrishLass (Aug 14, 2019)

I agree with Lin and jcandleattic on the jojoba oil. Some of that oil will react with lye, leaving you less 'greasing' oil for a smooth easy release. That's why mineral oil is my 'greasing oil' of choice. Also- don't put too much reliance on soap shrinkage for easy unmolding. It may shrink some here and there, but in my experience, it's not always as uniform as you'd like, meaning there are some parts of the soap that want to stick more tightly to the mold than other parts.   

I've never used stainless molds for soap, but if I did, I would not choose to use oil for my releasing agent. With plastic molds, oil is fine, because you have the advantage of being able to slightly bend/twist the plastic molds to help create an air pocket to enable the soap to release easily and cleanly, but stainless does not lend itself to being bent/twisted in like manner. If I were to use stainless molds, my liner of choice would be freezer paper. I would cut it so it overhangs the sides, giving me 'handles' to lift the soap out easily.


IrishLass


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## AZJen (Aug 14, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> I agree with Lin and jcandleattic on the jojoba oil. Some of that oil will react with lye, leaving you less 'greasing' oil for a smooth easy release. That's why mineral oil is my 'greasing oil' of choice. Also- don't put too much reliance on soap shrinkage for easy unmolding. It may shrink some here and there, but in my experience, it's not always as uniform as you'd like, meaning there are some parts of the soap that want to stick more tightly to the mold than other parts.
> 
> I've never used stainless molds for soap, but if I did, I would not choose to use oil for my releasing agent. With plastic molds, oil is fine, because you have the advantage of being able to slightly bend/twist the plastic molds to help create an air pocket to enable the soap to release easily and cleanly, but stainless does not lend itself to being bent/twisted in like manner. If I were to use stainless molds, my liner of choice would be freezer paper. I would cut it so it overhangs the sides, giving me 'handles' to lift the soap out easily.
> 
> ...



I see! Thank you for the explanation. I have seen tutorials on using freezer paper as a way to lift the soap out of the mold. I was just trying to avoid the plasticizers in the plastic lining of freezer paper. I plan to someday try some of the other options (lanolin, freezing, longer cure time, etc.) on a very small scale (single bar molds) before deciding that traditional freezer paper is what I must use, but again thank you for your vote and reasoning!


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## earlene (Aug 15, 2019)

Lanolin works great as a mold release.  I've used it many times.  I have even used Vaseline, when I ran out of lanolin.  Some folks use mineral oil.  But I prefer lanolin.


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## AZJen (Aug 15, 2019)

earlene said:


> Lanolin works great as a mold release.  I've used it many times.  I have even used Vaseline, when I ran out of lanolin.  Some folks use mineral oil.  But I prefer lanolin.



Thank you for sharing your experiences, earlene! I have some lanolin already so am excited to someday be able to give it a whirl. And I have Vaseline (used in my garden once) in case I ever need a backup plan.


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## jcandleattic (Aug 15, 2019)

I would not put lanolin/ etc., directly on a wooden mold with no other type of liner. However, in individual molds or SS molds it could work. 

Also keep in mind that soap made in individual molds will act differently than batches made in larger loaf or slab molds so the time to release/unmold will be different as well.


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## AZJen (Aug 15, 2019)

jcandleattic said:


> I would not put lanolin/ etc., directly on a wooden mold with no other type of liner. However, in individual molds or SS molds it could work.
> 
> Also keep in mind that soap made in individual molds will act differently than batches made in larger loaf or slab molds so the time to release/unmold will be different as well.



Also great input, jcandleattic! 

I was not planning on lining wooden molds with lanolin (unless perhaps very cheap small ones as a test), but I am thinking to blend lanolin with something else for coating linen or some other natural cloth as a liner. We shall see if that works, and I plan to always start VERY small until sure it will. I have no money to waste.

I was primarily thinking to line stainless pans (or more decorative molds if I can find them) with lanolin. So, I'm happy to hear that you think it might work with those.


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