# 100% lard batch misbehaved? :( Need advice...



## nsmar4211 (Aug 29, 2015)

I got brave and decided I'd do a 100% lard batch for my allergy friends...andddd that didn't work. Curious if anyone can tell me what might be the issue(s)?

Recipe: 45 oz of lard
14.85 of water
6.04 of lye (ended up being 6)
33% water as percent of oil weight
Lard melted in micro until 95% clear (rest melted by the time I poured it into mixing bowl)
Lye left until clear, used at warm temp (could hold hand on side of plastic pitcher). 

First off, the trace was weird. Usually I get trace fairly quick, but those other batches have had 15% coconut in them and seem to trace faster. This time I blended for a few minutes and, well, I thought it was traced. I didn't want to overtrace, since 1lb I wanted to add a tester fragrance to. Poured into the 33oz silicone loaf mold, and then poured the 1lb mold, and then poured leftovers into single silicone molds. So far so good. Big mold, no scent added. 1lb mold, I added Blackberry from Brambleberry, as well as purple M&P dye (yesyes I know) and some activated charcoal for a swirl play attempt. One small single I added a sample of another scent from another company and then three were plain.

Here's when I got concerned: the 1lb mold, the M&P turned barf yellow. I've used this color on several test batches in 65% lard recipies with no morphing issues! I do see the purple color in the middle but I didnt' encourage gel. Room was at 84.  The bigger loaf,  started gelling in the middle anyway so I wrapped it up and left it overnight. This morning when I unwrapped it I noticed random crystaly things on top...uhoh..... then I unmolded and lye bloom on the sides! They zapped so they aren't ash-it's lye, powdery and round patches. 

As you can see, the big loaf almost completely gelled. I didn't take a pic of the top because I don't want to handle it with the lye on the sides until I'm ready to toss it in the microwave/crockpot.  Whyyyyy do I have lye sides?  The small bleh colored loaf does not have lye sides, although it's softer than the big loaf which is a concern (is the excess lye in the big loaf what belongs in the little one?). The small molded soaps are fine, even the one with the sample new frag has no lye issues visible and passes the tongue test and is as hard as I would expect.

Soooo.... did I have an overheating issue? Or was this not mixed enough (thick enough trace)? Is 100% lard just not for me?  And most importantly, should I mix alllll the soap back in for a rebatch or just assume that the small loaf has the right amount of lye in it? (because that is an UGLY color I dont want to have a huge batch of and not too many ways to recolor). Help!

(the moisture visible is only maybe a drop, I didn't zap test it because the bloom was enough for my tongue)

Updated in thread 9/27/15


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## Obsidian (Aug 29, 2015)

Lard traces really slow, it possible you poured a bit too soon. I would cut the loaf and zap test again in a week or so. Zap testing right after unmolding is too soon.


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## Seawolfe (Aug 29, 2015)

Is it possible that you just unmolded it too quickly? I have a feeling the sides will sort themselves out. Definate zap you say? The zap feeling and not a taste?

Once thing I worry about with high lard recipes is whats called a "false trace" where the fats start to cool and solidify before the lye can start the saponification. If you do have a false trace there is a possibility of separation. Your loaf doesn't look like it separated.

Many colors made for M&P morph in CP soap, so now you know how that goes. But I would leave them all a couple days and see if I wasn't in a big hurry to rebatch (which I never am). They might come around.


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## nsmar4211 (Aug 29, 2015)

*ears perk up* There might be hope? At least for the icky colored loaf...

Definite zap on the bloom. Well, I say that...but I didn't get the "bit into a metal eraser" shudder I got before. Not really wanting to repoke with my tongue though. Maybe I'll relick later? A week sounds good .

 Unmolding too soon would cause lye bloom areas ? Or is it just concentrated at those areas, or maybe its future ash?

That might mean the small batch is not lye light then? It did get blended more due to the FO and the colorant, so too light of trace would make sense on the big loaf...and the small single bars were the bottom of the bowl so maybe more mixing (stick blender sucking to bottom wheee).

Going to put on gloves and cut the loaf incase its ok.... Edit: Cut the loaf. Good thing, it's getting hard! Double bullseye from the incomplete gel in part of the loaf..


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## not_ally (Aug 29, 2015)

I'm not sure if this is what Sea meant, but I thought it was more that it was more of a question that if you wait to unmold until your log is harder, some of that stuff will have dried up by itself.  So you didn't create/worsen the problem by unmolding to soon.  But she is a sciency-type, she may have something more useful in mind.

Also, I don't really worry too much about a soap being lye light, if it saponifies properly it has enough lye.  The only thing that might trouble me is if the lye ratio in the different pours/molds was off far enough somehow that part of the batch was superfatted to a higher degree than I wanted.  But it doesn't seem like that would be the case here.


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## Obsidian (Aug 29, 2015)

I've not actually ever heard of lye bloom. Too me, it looks like it might have got a bit too hot and had some of the lye solution leach out, then settle on the sides. 

Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with either batch.


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## cmzaha (Aug 29, 2015)

If poured at light emulsion, which is what it sounds like, it can stay very zappy for 72 hrs. Very light emulsions can turn to ash quickly since more un-saponified lye solution is loose to hit the air, forming soda ash. 100% lard can be very slow tracing


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## nsmar4211 (Aug 29, 2015)

*hugs forum* 

Okay, now I don't feel so bad. Settling out and pouring too soon makes a lot more sense than some horror scenario I had in my head. I will put these guys aside for a week and see if the big loaf still zaps. I'm not sure why I was under the impression that lard traces faster than other things, maybe because a) I need to take better notes or b)because it's solid at room temperature? Soooo now I know, stop trying to pour at a light trace . Next batch I'll pour at medium pudding stage and see if I have the same issues. Might even try it tonight since my molds are clean now...but no color or scent until I iron this out.

You guys rock! I will continue the experiments....


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## Susie (Aug 29, 2015)

I would also consider soaping a tad warmer if using 100% lard just to speed that trace some.  I don't do fancy swirls, so I just pour my super hot lye water over the hard oils and proceed to stick blending.  Lard is notoriously slow at tracing.  If you aren't swirling, you may want to give it a try.


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## nsmar4211 (Aug 30, 2015)

Got chickened off retrying it last night, but I did get brave enough to poke the sides...less zap now on the big loaf. Small loaf is doing well except the GAH color. I may end up cutting the tops off, the middle isn't as bad. Realized the yellow matches BrambleBerry's labels LOL. 

Will update when I try the next batch, and will try not letting the lye cool down so much!!!


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## not_ally (Aug 30, 2015)

nsmar4211 said:


> *hugs forum*
> 
> I'm not sure why I was under the impression that lard traces faster than other things



You probably read it somewhere, I have as well occasionally.  Based on the peoples' actual experiences (mine and tons of others here and elsewhere), I do not think that is the case at all, though.


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## cmzaha (Aug 30, 2015)

Lard can give you a "false" trace a if soaping to cool. I actually never called it false trace but I do understand why it is called that. It will thicken up quickly and make you think it is traced but in reality it is not. Just keep stirring until the lye begins reacting and it will thin out and change color.


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## Susie (Aug 30, 2015)

Yep, this is when experience shows.  We have all been there and done that, that is how we learned.


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## nsmar4211 (Sep 27, 2015)

Quicky update:

Holy DOS!!! Was checking /rearranging batches and noticed an orange soap.... wait...I've only made one batch of orange and this wasn't it.... ewwwwwwwwww. 

All of the unscented/uncolored loaf had 1/16th ish  of an inch of orange/yellow DOS on top and one side. And yes, def. DOS due to the smell-didn't even want to handle it long enough to do detailed pics. The two small single mold bars are oddly enough not dos'd and were an inch away from the dos'd stuff, so I kept those and tossed the rest as I don't want to chance it spreading. That batch did not want to be I guess! 

The colored/scented calmed down to an orangy purple, but I'm not going to give that one out and will just keep it for myself just in case it dos's later.

Well, I now have proof positive of what DOS smells like. Blech.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 27, 2015)

Yum! I'd suggest keeping it for future reference but I think that you need no reminders!

I wonder why so much dos formed


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## cmzaha (Sep 27, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Yum! I'd suggest keeping it for future reference but I think that you need no reminders!
> 
> I wonder why so much dos formed


Keep a note of which brand of lard you used that went dos. When I was doing some lard tallow experminents I had Farmer John lard turned completely orange. I am thinking maybe it is the BHT (food preservative)  levels in used. I have some BHT so I am going to rerun and test some lard brands again with and without additional BHT


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## IrishLass (Sep 27, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> Keep a note of which brand of lard you used that went dos. When I was doing some lard tallow experminents I had Farmer John lard turned completely orange. I am thinking maybe it is the BHT (food preservative) levels in used. I have some BHT so I am going to rerun and test some lard brands again with and without additional BHT


 
I take it that you suspect Farmer John's has less BHT? Let us know your results!


IrishLass


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## lenarenee (Sep 27, 2015)

Since I use a lot of lard I've very interested in this thread. The highest I've used is 80%, but usually use about 65% percent.

I have many 65% lard Farmer Johns soaps that were made early January, and out of 50 bars, 2 have dos. (I really got to get these out to people soon as I'm now concerned they may dos'ing soon. I made these for the Lost Boys of Sudan, but the woman who distributes them has had so much personal stuff this year.)

I got a hold of the Smart n Final lard about March and have been using it ever since, with no issues. Both have BHT, so who knows?


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## aprice522 (Sep 27, 2015)

I just made my first 100% lard today also. I did oven process since I wanted gel and was using a silicone alone. 

Now I am scared of the dos. I'm using the 50#box from the Columbus food/soapers  choice. Anyone use that lard???


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## nsmar4211 (Sep 27, 2015)

Now I'm thinking, which brand did I use? Most of what I've been using is the green and white tub from walmart (not where I can look at name) but now that I think about it, that batch may have been a blue and white tub I got from the spanish food store. Will have to look tomorrow to see if I have any of the blue and white left to check names.

Not sure it was the brands fault though, that batch gave me issues from the start. If I didn't mix long enough it is possible maybe that some of the lard goodies floated to the top which explains the dos on the tops consistantly. The middle did not dos yet...the side could be explained by me pulling away a side of the mold to see if it was unmoldable yet...  The two bars done in a different mold (not the loaf) are not showing signs of dos, they were the bottom of the barrel so to speak and closer to the stick blender.

None of my 65% lard bars from the same time are showing DOS and they were all stored in the same conditions. I'm leaning to batch failure!


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## DeeAnna (Sep 27, 2015)

I have not seen unusual DOS problems with the two commercial lard brands available from Walmart stores here in the midwestern US -- speaking from memory, that's Armor and Snowcap. I haven't used Farmer John brand, and I'm very curious about the results from Carolyn's tests. Columbus Foods lard should be decent stuff. I haven't used the lard or tallow, but I've used their liquid fats and am pleased with the quality.


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## doriettefarm (Sep 28, 2015)

Now I'm really curious about differences between brands of lard.  I've always used the Armour/Manteca brand from Wally World and I'm pretty sure it contains BHT & EDTA as additives.  I thought these additives would help prevent DOS and I've only had one lard batch go funky on me (it also included grapeseed oil which is definitely DOS prone). 

I do have some rendered lard I bought from the farmer's market.  I've kept it in the freezer but might thaw some out for soaping experiments.  I would have to make the exact same recipe with both types of lard as a true test.


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## regansoap (Sep 28, 2015)

I think the green and beige look quite nice - don't be so hard on yourself


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## Obsidian (Sep 28, 2015)

The green and white is armour and the blue and white is snowcap. I use armour and I don't get DOS, I have used snowcap in the past but it smells too piggy for my liking.


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## nsmar4211 (Sep 28, 2015)

Not a closeup, but you can see the extent of the dos. The smelllll..... The lineup is how it was in the loaf, interesting that the middle (which usually heats more) isn't developing it as fast. And its just the top part of the bars which is why Im blaming batch failure...


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## DeeAnna (Sep 29, 2015)

~What~ did you put on the top of that soap? I have never seen DOS so clearly defined like this, and I do agree it looks like DOS, at least from a distance. But Dos from lard should be an overall discoloration throughout the bar, not just on the top. There's something odd going on here .... I strongly suspect it's not the lard.


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## Susie (Sep 29, 2015)

Whatever you lined that mold with is the issue.   DOS would be all the way through, not just on the bottom and sides.  That is not a lard issue.


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## reinbeau (Sep 29, 2015)

Interesting and yes, following, so I can see the answer re: what's on the tops.  I use my own home rendered lard and have never, ever seen anything like that.


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## nsmar4211 (Sep 29, 2015)

There's nothing extra on the top-seriously...it was a 100% lard batch! Silicone unlined uncoated mold that's been used a dozen times before and since and nothing else did this. I was suspecting lye bloom (the start of the thread) and was told that's not really a thing...but I wonder it the top layer was somehow less lye-y? If it was poured too soon, maybe the oils settled on top and didn't have enough lye mixed in? 

I didn't cover the mold, so no contaminent from a covering. Kept the bars out drying where I dry everything else for a week and then they went into the cardboard box that you see there. Two other bars (same batch) in the same box did not dos, those were dregs poured into smaller molds (those two I kept). One bar not pictured was across two of the orange bars (stacked across) and where it touched the orange it was also orange. 

The box is an Ensure box from my kitchen, clean and dry and those bars only go half the height and didn't touch the cardboard anywhere. No odor to the box, and again the two smaller bars are ok so far (and one of those actually was up against the cardboard side). Dozens of bars in those boxes, no dos. They are stacked cross ways so the air is circulating (half the top is open). Stored at room temp like all the other ones...

The scented bars in the smaller silicone loaf mold are not showing this orange (and they were dried for a week in the same area), although they did get mixed better (to mix the scent in) so the "under blended" theory would see true...

The smell was rancid and BLEH...I can't describe it other than to say it was wrong LOL. 

After doing some digging, that was indeed the blue and white tubs in that batch. Dug around more and it was Goya brand. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005F5K71C/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
Got it at a spanish grocery store near me when walmart was out of the other one. It did smell more piggy than the Armour brand. I'm not sure what the turnover is like for that lard in the grocery store, and I don't remember checking the dates (which I do now). The tubs are long gone . 

Once I get the gift bars done, I will revist this 100% lard idea...with the Armour brand only and blending the snot out of it in case of false trace!!


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## Obsidian (Sep 29, 2015)

When I make 100% lard, I soap hot to speed trace. Any scent/colors/additives are mixed into the melted lard before adding the lye.


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## nsmar4211 (Oct 17, 2015)

Just an update.......I think I may have found another part of the issue. In researching lye solution information in this thread http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53642&page=2

DeeAnna mentions the lye solution in lard vs coconut.I went and reran the numbers and I was only at a 28% solution of lye. Now that I'm understanding %of oils vs lye concentration better, I see that this was a ton of water...couple that with not mixing well enough due to false trace and maybe old lard and we get DOS?.

Hope is not lost....now I have a number to tweak in the receipe....


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## DeeAnna (Oct 17, 2015)

I really don't think using a 28% lye concentration would trigger DOS. And your soap doesn't show any sign (at least in the photo above) of any separation, so I don't think inadequate mixing or false trace or emulsion failure were problems either. 

I would also expect an overall color change if the lard was rancid -- not just DOS on the top and sides. (Or maybe you're seeing that now?) 

I'm still puzzled.


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