# HP vs. CP liquid soap, dilution questions



## BlackDog

I've been reading every liquid soap process thread over and over in preparation for trying my first batch of LS.  It is so overwhelming!  I'm going to try the OO/CO/Castor recipe IrishLass kindly shared in the "big thread" but my question is regarding what happens after you combine the lye and oils.

I've seen some people stick blend/whisk and leave it to form paste, and others cook in the crockpot - I'm assuming this is the fundamental difference between CP/HP?  

If that's correct, what's the benefit of HP? It seems like more work, plus you have to have a soap-dedicated crock pot. (As the proud owner of three food-dedicated crockpots, I don't want another sitting around if I don't need it)

Then once you have the paste, what's the best way (in your opinion) to dilute and why?  I've seen a few methods, just looking for explanations on why you do what you do. Convince me your way is the best!


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## jewels621

I just recently made my first batch of GLS from IL's instructions and they couldn't be more thorough! I did not cook anything after mixing lye and oils and it turned out perfect. I did use a stick blender, and I gotta say....reached the flying bubble stage with both batches I've made, and both times it made me giggle! Went to zap-free paste in less than 2 hours without touching it or cooking it.

I dilute exactly like IL's instructions, as well. I put my paste, distilled water, and SL in a wide-mouth half-gallon sized canning jar and then let it sit in a simmering hot water bath on top of the stove until it's soft enough to stick blend. Then I let it sit to settle, cool, and dissolve and top foam before I add FO and PS80, and then bottle it.

I read forever, too, before I actually took the liquid soap plunge, and it was so much easier than I ever thought it would be, thanks to Irish Lass and her fabulous instructions. 

Just do it!


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## Saranac

If you're using the glycerin method, there's really no need to HP; everything will come together and saponify on its own.  I use a touch or rosin in my LS, which needs more heat to melt, and it reacts with the KOH quickly.  I tend to soap warmer than most (150-160F), but I don't use a crock-pot.  It all goes into a stainless steel pot and if I need to add heat, I can warm it all up.

I dilute, as needed, in a 1/2 gallon canning jar with a plastic reusable lid.  The paste, water, and polysorbate go right in, I put a lid on it, and let it sit for a couple of days.  If I think about it, I might give it a couple of shakes.  And if I'm feeling impatient, I might put the whole thing into a pot of warm water.  All in all, it takes about 2-3 days to dilute.

When it's time to fragrance, I just add my EO/FO to the diluted soap, stir, and wait some more.  It'll go cloudy, but between 1 and 24 hours (depending on the fragrance), everything is crystal clear again.


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## IrishLass

I personally see no benefit to HPing my liquid soap to the paste stage. To me, it's a needless waste of my time and energy/electricity. Other folks can certainly do it if it floats their boat, but my philosophy is, "Why go to the trouble if it will saponify just fine without the added heat and extra attention needed?". I'm not saying my way is the best way for all, but it is most certainly the best way for me, a lass who tends to gravitate towards finding less time-consuming, less fussy ways of doing things.

I just whisk or stick-blend off-heat to the emulsification stage/Lawrence Welk stage, cover my pot and walk away. I have plenty of other things I can find to occupy my time than needlessly hovering over a hot pot for a few hours when I don't have to. 

Re: dilution: I'm partial to Carrie's method (3bees~1flower from the Dish), which is the canning jar method. Everything is contained in a sealed environment so that evaporation is kept to the barest minimum, and I am better able to see what is going on as often as I like from the top to the bottom clarity-wise/viscosity-wise without ever un-screwing the lid and causing needless evaporation- by just lifting the jar out of the pot of boiling water and tilting it/swirling it. 

In comparison, if I were diluting in a crockpot, the only way I would be able to judge how things were progressing throughout the dilution would be to lift the lid and give things a stir, which would cause evaporation over a large surface area every time I decided I wanted to check on things.... which increases the potential of negatively effecting the overall consistency of my finished soap.


IrishLass


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## BlackDog

Saranac said:


> If you're using the glycerin method, there's really no need to HP; everything will come together and saponify on its own.  I use a touch or rosin in my LS, which needs more heat to melt, and it reacts with the KOH quickly.  I tend to soap warmer than most (150-160F), but I don't use a crock-pot.  It all goes into a stainless steel pot and if I need to add heat, I can warm it all up.
> 
> I dilute, as needed, in a 1/2 gallon canning jar with a plastic reusable lid.  The paste, water, and polysorbate go right in, I put a lid on it, and let it sit for a couple of days.  If I think about it, I might give it a couple of shakes.  And if I'm feeling impatient, I might put the whole thing into a pot of warm water.  All in all, it takes about 2-3 days to dilute.
> 
> When it's time to fragrance, I just add my EO/FO to the diluted soap, stir, and wait some more.  It'll go cloudy, but between 1 and 24 hours (depending on the fragrance), everything is crystal clear again.



Wow that dilution method sounds even *easier* (read: lazier) than the warming one! I thought I remember reading that it should be warm when you put your fragrance in, but maybe that is just some peoples process and I took it as a rule. All the threads run together in my mind! 

Side note: what's the polysorbate for? Isn't that an emulsifier?



IrishLass said:


> I personally see no benefit to HPing my liquid soap to the paste stage. To me, it's a needless waste of my time and energy/electricity. Other folks can certainly do it if it floats their boat, but my philosophy is, "Why go to the trouble if it will saponify just fine without the added heat and extra attention needed?". I'm not saying my way is the best way for all, but it is most certainly the best way for me, a lass who tends to gravitate towards finding less time-consuming, less fussy ways of doing things.
> 
> I just whisk or stick-blend off-heat to the emulsification stage/Lawrence Welk stage, cover my pot and walk away. I have plenty of other things I can find to occupy my time than needlessly hovering over a hot pot for a few hours when I don't have to.
> 
> Re: dilution: I'm partial to Carrie's method (3bees~1flower from the Dish), which is the canning jar method. Everything is contained in a sealed environment so that evaporation is kept to the barest minimum, and I am better able to see what is going on as often as I like from the top to the bottom clarity-wise/viscosity-wise without ever un-screwing the lid and causing needless evaporation- by just lifting the jar out of the pot of boiling water and tilting it/swirling it.



That's kind of what I thought re: all the cooking, but thank you for confirming it for me! I'll take the lazy way, thanksverymuch. And thank you for all your thoughtful and well-written LS posts; I'm not sure I would be trying this without them!


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## Saranac

Polysorbate is a solubilizer.  It helps the FO mix into the soap and increases your chances of making a clear LS.  Some people use it, others don't.  Depending on the fragrance, you may not need it.  Heat will speed things along (and thin the soap slightly, making incorporation easier), but more often then not, I scent my soap at room temp.


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## fuzz-juzz

I used to cook my LS paste, not for long though, 30 mins max. Bu after trying CP method, I can't see the point.
You get lighter LS and with much less of that cooked "cooked LS" scent.
I just plop some paste into jar with distilled water and it dilutes within a day.
I honestly don't understand cooking the paste for 3-4h, but each to their own.


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## IrishLass

That's that- you've made up my mind- the next batch of the olive/coconut/castor that I make, I'm doing the completely-lazy, no-cook-all-the-way-through-dilution method. 


IrishLass


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## Sapo

To the CPLS makers: do any of you use water, or are you all glycerin users?


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## fuzz-juzz

I used glycerin but I was thinking of using water as well.
It should work... I can't see why it shouldn't. 
It might take a bit longer to saponify though.


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## magali

IrishLass said:


> That's that- you've made up my mind- the next batch of the olive/coconut/castor that I make, I'm doing the completely-lazy, no-cook-all-the-way-through-dilution method.
> 
> 
> IrishLass




Hi Irish Lass! I saw your post on making CP GLS and so ready to try it! Thanks so much for sharing  But when I put the numbers on soap calc, what is the % water of oils? Should I use the default 38%? I'm planning to dissolve the lye in the water first for 1:1, and then make up the rest using glycerine. But how do I know the number of the liquid?


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## DeeAnna

Sapo said:


> To the CPLS makers: do any of you use water, or are you all glycerin users?



I have made KOH soap several ways -- 1 part water to 2 parts glycerin, 2 of water to 1 of glycerin, and all water. The only version I have not tried is all glycerin.

In the last month or so, I made two batches using the same basic recipe and general method, except one was made with 2:1 water:glycerin and the other with all water. I did this because there are liquid soap making people on Facebook firmly believe KOH soap cannot be made without hours of cooking, testing, and hovering. Or if one does a batch without cooking, it's a fluke. Or it's due to the magic of using one specific recipe. Or I'm just plain lying.

It had been awhile since I had made KOH soap, and I'd started to belief in their disbelief. I shouldn't have. Both batches both saponified nicely with no surprises.

The main difference between a part-glycerin batch vs an all-water batch is that I like to start warmer with an all-water batch. This helps the saponification move along faster, comparable to soap made with part glycerin. I do not cook the paste even with an all-water batch. The only heating involved is getting the ingredients to the starting temp I want. I don't think others do this nor do I believe this up-front heating is strictly necessary -- I just get impatient.

I shoot for a soap batter temperature of 170-180 F (75-80 C) to start with. Once the soap starts to saponify strongly -- about the time the soap comes to trace -- it will heat up all on its own. If you start soaping cooler than that, the all-water version may take longer to come to trace, but it will still fully saponify without cooking. 

There's no magic to this -- it's the same game as making NaOH soap with a CP process. If you make bar (NaOH) soap starting with cold ingredients, it's going to take longer to become zap free (fully saponified) than if the ingredients are warmer.


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## IrishLass

magali said:


> Hi Irish Lass! I saw your post on making CP GLS and so ready to try it! Thanks so much for sharing  But when I put the numbers on soap calc, what is the % water of oils? Should I use the default 38%? I'm planning to dissolve the lye in the water first for 1:1, and then make up the rest using glycerine. But how do I know the number of the liquid?


 
Hi Magali!

One of the best pieces of advice I can give you in terms of water amount is to avoid calculating your formulas using the 'Water as % of Oils' on SoapCalc. Many of us have found it to be an inferior method of calculating water, as it is prone to causing inconsistencies from formula to formula, sometimes very problematic inconsistencies requiring rebatching.

The better way to calculate water on SoapCalc is to use the 'Lye Concentration' box instead. The difference between the two is that 'Water as % of Oils' calculates water based on the oils, and "Lye Concentration" calculates water based on the lye amount. Here is an excellent post by our DeeAnna explaining the difference between the 2 and why "water as % of Oil" oftentimes proves to be problematic, while figuring the water based on the lye amount gives more consistent/successful results: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53642&page=2

Having said all that, when I make my liquid soap I use a 25% lye concentration, so completely ignore the 'water as % of oils' and instead go ahead and type the number 25 into the Lye Concentration box (which is a ratio of 3 parts water to 1 part KOH). 

At this point I should mention that although I normally use SoapCalc for all my bar soaps, I always turn to SummerbeeMeadows Advanced Lye Calculator when making my liquid soap. They are very experienced in making liquid or cream soaps and have certain automatic/default settings built into their calculator that account for things such as KOH purity (94%) and the best water amount for making liquid soap paste, which just so happens to be a 25% lye concentration (3 parts water to 1 part lye).

If you are using the 65% OO formula that I posted and want your liquid soap to come out as close as possible to how mine comes out- but while using SoapCalc- you are going to have to make some extra adjustments when typing in the formula in order for SoapCalc's resulting ingredient amounts to match the resulting ingredient amounts that Summerbee gives me. They are very different from each other because SoapCalc only allows for either 100% KOH purity or 90% KOH purity, which means that the 3% superfat that I use with SummerbeeMeadows default of 94% purity will end up being a 7% superfat on SoapCalc using their 90% purity setting (or -3.2% superfat if using their 100% purity). It's crazy!  That's why I keep pointing folks to Summerbee if they are trying to duplicate how my liquid soap comes out.


IrishLass


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## magali

I always think in lye concentration when I make cp bar soap. How come my brain thinks differently just because it's liquid now?  Perhaps because in my mind I wanted to be able to control the thickness of the ls. It makes sense now. Thanks for the tips, Irish Lass! I'll check the calculator


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## IrishLass

> =magali
> Perhaps because in my mind I wanted to be able to control the thickness of the ls


 
You can control the thickness or thinness of the finished liquid soap later on at the dilution stage by adjusting your paste's  dilution rate. 


IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

I do what Irish Lass does -- control the dilution to control the thickness. That works well for soap high in oleic acid (olive oil and other high oleic oils.) 

Sometimes controlling thickness by dilution doesn't work very well. One example is a LS that high in coconut oil (high in lauric and myristic acids). It tends to be too thick or too thin with no "just right" thickness in the middle. 

The solution in that case is to add a thickener -- HEC and HPMC are names of two I've heard of. Faith (Alaiyna B bath and body) has a good blog that covers how to use these thickeners.

Another reason why you might want to use a separate thickener is to reduce the soap content to a lower percentage to keep heavy-handed people from wasting soap. In that case, the soap itself may be too thin regardless of the recipe, so an added thickener is the best way to build back a nice consistency.


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## magali

DeeAnna said:


> I do what Irish Lass does -- control the dilution to control the thickness. That works well for soap high in oleic acid (olive oil and other high oleic oils.)
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes controlling thickness by dilution doesn't work very well. One example is a LS that high in coconut oil (high in lauric and myristic acids). It tends to be too thick or too thin with no "just right" thickness in the middle.
> 
> 
> 
> The solution in that case is to add a thickener -- HEC and HPMC are names of two I've heard of. Faith (Alaiyna B bath and body) has a good blog that covers how to use these thickeners.
> 
> 
> 
> Another reason why you might want to use a separate thickener is to reduce the soap content to a lower percentage to keep heavy-handed people from wasting soap. In that case, the soap itself may be too thin regardless of the recipe, so an added thickener is the best way to build back a nice consistency.




I've never heard them before, I'll check the blog. Can I use xantham gum? 

Also on the first step, when the koh is diluted with water at 1:1 before adding the glycerine, you don't need any heat, right? Because the koh is dissolved completely with water.


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## DeeAnna

Xanthan gum works as a thickener, but I understand that it's harder to get good consistent results. 

When you dilute KOH in an equal or larger weight of water, you do not need to heat it. It will dissolve fine at room temperature. 

You can then add the glycerin to the lye solution, or you can add it to the fats or soap batter. You don't need any heat for this step either.


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## Zany_in_CO

Sapo said:


> To the CPLS makers: do any of you use water, or are you all glycerin users?


I use water.  Old school here. LOL


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## DeeAnna

Another thought -- I said earlier ".... I do what Irish Lass does -- control the dilution to control the thickness. That works well for soap high in oleic acid (olive oil and other high oleic oils.) ...."

And I should have said, "....soap MODERATELY high in oleic acid....." It turns out that if you make a KOH soap with 100% olive oil, there is so much oleic acid that it takes a LOT of water to dilute the paste to a pourable consistency. By the time it is pourable rather than jelly like, there's so much water and so little soap, the product isn't very nice to wash with. 

So you want enough oleic acid, but not too much.

If you look at the fatty acid profile of the Irish Lass-Carrie liquid soap recipe (the one with olive, coconut, and castor), you'll see the oleic acid content is about 50%. If you look at the FA profile of pure olive oil, it's closer to 70% oleic acid. 

We know the IL recipe works well to dilute to a honey-thick liquid at a reasonable dilution. Recipes for LS I've collected from other soapers range from about 40% to 60% oleic acid. So my theory is recipes with an oleic acid content of 45% to 55% are more likely to be a honey-thick liquid with not too much water and a reasonable % of soap.


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## magali

I made it using irisslass instruction, now it's a paste. Can't wait to dilute it. Kinda nervous because I made cpls before using water and it was really opaque like milk. The culprit could be either the SL or distilled water. I hope I can get this batch clear after dilution. I'll try to use poly80 too to mix the eo/fo.


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## DeeAnna

Before you add scent, be sure to test it in a small sample of LS to see how the soap reacts. Some fragrances will thin soap, some will thicken it. Some fragrances will mix in just fine on their own, and some will not. A quick test can save you some grief.

I have not had to use PS80 to get my FOs and EOs to stay mixed with my diluted liquid soap ... so far. If I find a scent someday that won't stay properly mixed, Irish Lass has given me the know-how to fix it, and I sincerely appreciate her generosity in sharing this information.


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## Sapo

Thanks Deanna and Zany for the comment on cold process/only initial heating LS with using just water.
One more question - after how much time do you experience full saponification when using only water and no heat?

And ditto on the "do test batches of various essential oils". Some tests may take weeks, mind you. I made 6 different soaps recently, 6 different essential oils - large batches (hasty hasty...). 4 turned out good, but the blood orange EO and ylang ylang EO instantly turned my diluted soap into a brick. Nothing un-salvagable, mind you, just needed to carefully add more dilution water, which was an added hassle.

What WAS a deal breaker is the fact that blood orange EO (or more likely an individual component?) later separated out and now floats on top as a white streak. This happened after a week or two of sitting in the closet.


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## Susie

That happens.  I have a batch of LS right now with white floating on the top.  It was scented with an EO I have used before from a previous bottle.  I don't know what the manufacturer changed, but it was something.  This is exactly why you should do a test batch with every scent.  It need not be much, but that one small step can save a whole batch from being white.


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## biarine

IrishLass said:


> I personally see no benefit to HPing my liquid soap to the paste stage. To me, it's a needless waste of my time and energy/electricity. Other folks can certainly do it if it floats their boat, but my philosophy is, "Why go to the trouble if it will saponify just fine without the added heat and extra attention needed?". I'm not saying my way is the best way for all, but it is most certainly the best way for me, a lass who tends to gravitate towards finding less time-consuming, less fussy ways of doing things.
> 
> I just whisk or stick-blend off-heat to the emulsification stage/Lawrence Welk stage, cover my pot and walk away. I have plenty of other things I can find to occupy my time than needlessly hovering over a hot pot for a few hours when I don't have to.
> 
> Re: dilution: I'm partial to Carrie's method (3bees~1flower from the Dish), which is the canning jar method. Everything is contained in a sealed environment so that evaporation is kept to the barest minimum, and I am better able to see what is going on as often as I like from the top to the bottom clarity-wise/viscosity-wise without ever un-screwing the lid and causing needless evaporation- by just lifting the jar out of the pot of boiling water and tilting it/swirling it.
> 
> In comparison, if I were diluting in a crockpot, the only way I would be able to judge how things were progressing throughout the dilution would be to lift the lid and give things a stir, which would cause evaporation over a large surface area every time I decided I wanted to check on things.... which increases the potential of negatively effecting the overall consistency of my finished soap.
> 
> 
> IrishLass




I don't want to be pain IrishLass but I need to ask if I can use 100 % water because I can't use glycerin method because we don't have a cooking vent or fan  to extract the fume. I like your method less fuzz and more easy.


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## BattleGnome

biarine said:


> I don't want to be pain IrishLass but I need to ask if I can use 100 % water because I can't use glycerin method because we don't have a cooking vent or fan  to extract the fume. I like your method less fuzz and more easy.



You can use water (or alternate liquids). I think the glycerin is faster but not sciencey enough to know for sure. The only time I've made paste was with 100% water, I plan to make more soon with glycerin to see the difference


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## Susie

You can use plain water.  It will take a longer time to get to emulsion, but you can do it.  

However, if you mix the KOH with water then add the glycerin to the oils, you do not get the fumes you would if you mixed the KOH with the glycerin.  You get no more fumes than you would making CP bar soap.


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## biarine

Susie said:


> You can use plain water.  It will take a longer time to get to emulsion, but you can do it.
> 
> However, if you mix the KOH with water then add the glycerin to the oils, you do not get the fumes you would if you mixed the KOH with the glycerin.  You get no more fumes than you would making CP bar soap.




Oh thank you Susie, I will try. Because sometimes I am tired cooking for 3 to 4 hours.


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## Susie

No cooking needed.  It is like making CP bar soap, only you get it to emulsion, then wait for it to do its own cooking.


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## biarine

Susie said:


> No cooking needed.  It is like making CP bar soap, only you get it to emulsion, then wait for it to do its own cooking.




How long it will take before it's done? Sorry as a newbie I don't really know, I am still learningx


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## DeeAnna

biarine said:


> ...I need to ask if I can use 100 % water because I can't use glycerin method because we don't have a cooking vent or fan  to extract the fume. I like your method less fuzz and more easy.



I'm not Irish Lass, obviously. That said, you might re-read post 13 above if you'd like my answer about whether one can make this soap with only water.

If you use the part-glycerin method where you dissolve the KOH in water, you do not need any more ventilation than you would normally use for any other type of soap.


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## biarine

DeeAnna said:


> I'm not Irish Lass, obviously. That said, you might re-read post 13 above if you'd like my answer about whether one can make this soap with only water.
> 
> 
> 
> If you use the part-glycerin method where you dissolve the KOH in water, you do not need any more ventilation than you would normally use for any other type of soap.




Thank you DeeAnna.


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## DeeAnna

Sapo said:


> One more question - after how much time do you experience full saponification when using only water and no heat?



The time can vary. 

When I made the two batches I describe in my first post in this thread, it took under an hour from the time I mixed the lye and fats for both batches to be zap free. 

If you make an all-water LS recipe and start it at a lower temperature -- say 100 to 120 deg F (40-50 C), I'd wait overnight to a day and then test. It's about the same as making NaOH soap if you start with cold lye and room temperature fats -- a batch made like this can take a day to a few days to be zap free.


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## IrishLass

biarine said:


> I don't want to be pain IrishLass but I need to ask if I can use 100 % water because I can't use glycerin method because we don't have a cooking vent or fan to extract the fume. I like your method less fuzz and more easy.


 
You are not a pain. 

I'm not sure if you saw one of the edits (in red) that I added to my post in the Soapmaking 101 thread explaining how I make my glycerin liquid soap, but I mix my KOH differently nowadays. Instead of cooking the KOH and glycerin together until the KOH dissolves, I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of room temp. distilled water by weight- which takes only about a minute, if that- then I add my regular recipe amount of glycerin (at room temp) to the solution before adding to my melted oils/fats. It's so much easier and even less fussy.  


IrishLass


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## Susie

biarine said:


> How long it will take before it's done? Sorry as a newbie I don't really know, I am still learningx



^What DeeAnna said!  I use 1/3 water to 2/3 glycerin for my water amount.  Or 1:1, depending on my mood.  They do not take long.  Usually by the time I clean my kitchen up (20-30 minutes barring interruptions), I have gel and proceed to dilution.


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## biarine

Susie said:


> ^What DeeAnna said!  I use 1/3 water to 2/3 glycerin for my water amount.  Or 1:1, depending on my mood.  They do not take long.  Usually by the time I clean my kitchen up (20-30 minutes barring interruptions), I have gel and proceed to dilution.




How thank you Susie. I will try.



IrishLass said:


> You are not a pain.
> 
> I'm not sure if you saw one of the edits (in red) that I added to my post in the Soapmaking 101 thread explaining how I make my glycerin liquid soap, but I mix my KOH differently nowadays. Instead of cooking the KOH and glycerin together until the KOH dissolves, I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of room temp. distilled water by weight- which takes only about a minute, if that- then I add my regular recipe amount of glycerin (at room temp) to the solution before adding to my melted oils/fats. It's so much easier and even less fussy.
> 
> 
> IrishLass




Thank you IrishLass, I can't wait to try your method.


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## magali

I'm diluting my paste at the moment using irishlass canning method but reduced the water to 50:50. It's still a bit runny for my liking. If I want to add thickener (xantham gum) and honey, when they should be added? But I'm not sure if real honey is a good idea though, maybe I'll use honey extract.


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## Susie

No honey.  You never add anything after the paste is made that is food for bacteria.


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## DeeAnna

If by "honey extract" you mean a fragrance oil or something like that, sure, go for it. 

If "honey extract" is something like dehydrated honey, it's still honey and Susie's advice still applies. Adding sugars to diluted liquid soap is a bad idea.

I don't have any suggestions for using xanthan gum. I recall some people say it can be tricky to work with, but I don't remember why.


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## biarine

fuzz-juzz said:


> I used glycerin but I was thinking of using water as well.
> It should work... I can't see why it shouldn't.
> It might take a bit longer to saponify though.




I used water method just now and leave it for 4 hours doing my garden and When back and check it no zap and fully jelled. I love this method , first I don't waste my electricity and second  I can do something else without checking every 30 minutes.

I wanted to ask if Morrocan RHASSOUL CLAY can make a liquid soap cloudy? I am very adventurous today I make a liquid soap for my husband aunt, she can't have coconut or palm oil because  she's allergic to it. Zap free but it's cloudy

Here's my recipe
380 grams avocado 
300 olive oil
100 castor oil
100 sweet almond
150 wheatgerm oil
1 teaspoon Morrocan RHASSOUL CLAY
1 teaspoon sugar
627 grams water
209 grams potassium 


 this is the test.


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## DeeAnna

Clay is composed of small particles that do not dissolve. So, yes, it will cloud the soap. So will the unsaponifiable chemicals in avocado oil. 

You didn't mention whether you are using distilled or tap/drinking water to make and dilute the soap. For best results, use distilled.


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## biarine

DeeAnna said:


> Clay is composed of small particles that do not dissolve. So, yes, it will cloud the soap. So will the unsaponifiable chemicals in avocado oil.
> 
> You didn't mention whether you are using distilled or tap/drinking water to make and dilute the soap. For best results, use distilled.




Thank you DeeAnna, I used distilled water  and just tried the no cooking method and I love it, no so much work.


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## BlackDog

Well I made my first batch of paste yesterday and everything went smoothly. Over 24 hours later and it's still zappy, so I guess I'm playing the waiting game. But the good news is, I decided to wash my pot (the paste I moved to a jar) and it lathered up like a boss. I hope I'm zap free by tomorrow; I'm excited to get this puppy diluted so I can give it a spin!

Yay! Zap-free! I just added water and now I have to wait again  I really thought this would be easier than waiting weeks for my CP to cure but I swear this has already been the longest 48 hours of my life!


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## Arimara

BlackDog said:


> Yay! Zap-free! I just added water and now I have to wait again  I really thought this would be easier than waiting weeks for my CP to cure but I swear this has already been the longest 48 hours of my life!



You'll be fine.


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## CassieLouisa

IrishLass said:


> Re: dilution: I'm partial to Carrie's method (3bees~1flower from the Dish), which is the canning jar method. Everything is contained in a sealed environment so that evaporation is kept to the barest minimum, and I am better able to see what is going on as often as I like from the top to the bottom clarity-wise/viscosity-wise without ever un-screwing the lid and causing needless evaporation- by just lifting the jar out of the pot of boiling water and tilting it/swirling it.
> 
> In comparison, if I were diluting in a crockpot, the only way I would be able to judge how things were progressing throughout the dilution would be to lift the lid and give things a stir, which would cause evaporation over a large surface area every time I decided I wanted to check on things.... which increases the potential of negatively effecting the overall consistency of my finished soap.
> 
> 
> IrishLass [/QUOTE
> 
> Well now I understand why you recommend the canning jar method - I will find out if just using the crock pot works for such a small amount for my own use. If it doesn't work out - not much paste was wasted!


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## BattleGnome

I use a measuring cup and cover it with cling wrap. Just stir the water into the paste, cover with plastic, and let it sit, add more water as needed. I do weigh everything but it's simple a no fuss to me


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## CassieLouisa

BattleGnome said:


> I use a measuring cup and cover it with cling wrap. Just stir the water into the paste, cover with plastic, and let it sit, add more water as needed. I do weigh everything but it's simple a no fuss to me



I checked my diluted soap this morning - looks beautiful but still too thick. I did what you suggested and transferred it from the crock pot. It was barely enough to cover the bottom anyway. I put it in a glass measuring cup and added a few more drops of water and covered it with saran wrap.

I'm just wondering if there is any method that says to dilute the paste ON heat? I seem to recall reading that some soap makers dilute on heat while others do the process off heat. As a baker, it seems more logical to add heat while diluting. Is this a definite mistake with liquid soap?



IrishLass said:


> You are not a pain.
> 
> I'm not sure if you saw one of the edits (in red) that I added to my post in the Soapmaking 101 thread explaining how I make my glycerin liquid soap, but I mix my KOH differently nowadays. Instead of cooking the KOH and glycerin together until the KOH dissolves, I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of room temp. distilled water by weight- which takes only about a minute, if that- then I add my regular recipe amount of glycerin (at room temp) to the solution before adding to my melted oils/fats. It's so much easier and even less fussy.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



So you take the recipe calculated amount of water/glycerin weight needed, use part of it to dilute the KOH in water, then use the remaining weight in glycerin added to the KOH and distilled water amount? 

What's the advantage? Keeping the fumes to a minimum? Or not having to mix with heat at all? Just curious here, I made my soap paste from your original post and dissolved the KOH and glycerin on heat and the paste came out perfect -- thank you for your tutorials, guidance, and especially patience with me.


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## Susie

CassieLouisa said:


> I checked my diluted soap this morning - looks beautiful but still too thick. I did what you suggested and transferred it from the crock pot. It was barely enough to cover the bottom anyway. I put it in a glass measuring cup and added a few more drops of water and covered it with saran wrap.
> 
> I'm just wondering if there is any method that says to dilute the paste ON heat? I seem to recall reading that some soap makers dilute on heat while others do the process off heat. As a baker, it seems more logical to add heat while diluting. Is this a definite mistake with liquid soap?



I dilute in my crock pot, on high.  The downside is that you lose moisture every time you lift the lid, so you have to add more.  This is done VERY carefully and slowly.  The upside is that it is faster.



CassieLouisa said:


> So you take the recipe calculated amount of water/glycerin weight needed, use part of it to dilute the KOH in water, then use the remaining weight in glycerin added to the KOH and distilled water amount?
> 
> What's the advantage? Keeping the fumes to a minimum? Or not having to mix with heat at all? Just curious here, I made my soap paste from your original post and dissolved the KOH and glycerin on heat and the paste came out perfect -- thank you for your tutorials, guidance, and especially patience with me.



The advantages are:

1. It is safer by far.  You do not have boiling glycerin/KOH putting off fumes and presenting quite a danger in the potential for spilling.

2.  It achieves the same result.

3.  It is lots easier.


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## BattleGnome

CassieLouisa said:


> I'm just wondering if there is any method that says to dilute the paste ON heat? I seem to recall reading that some soap makers dilute on heat while others do the process off heat. As a baker, it seems more logical to add heat while diluting. Is this a definite mistake with liquid soap?



There are methods for just about everything. I'm not very familiar with the, since I am new to liquid soap making. Susie just mentioned the crockpot method you were asking about. I just find the measuring cup works for me because I don't have to babysit it or go out to get larger canning jars. I do have a bunch of 8oz jars to store paste in, they just aren't practical to dilute in.


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## CassieLouisa

Susie, thank you so much for clearing this up. I've just become comfortable with the original method I hate to change just yet although I'll keep thinking on it for the next batch.

BattleGnome,

I have enough paste from this batch to try both so I'll see which one I like best. Thank you so much.


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## Susie

CassieLouisa said:


> BattleGnome,
> 
> I have enough paste from this batch to try both so I'll see which one I like best. Thank you so much.



It really depends on your level of urgency.  I am normally in a hurry, and only dilute when I am OUT OF SOAP.  Therefore, I need to expedite that process.  

I pinch off small pieces of paste and drop them into the hot water.  Then stir every 10-15 minutes or so.  If I have more than 2 small lumps or a skin on top, I add a very small amount of water, about half the size of whatever I am trying to dilute.


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## biarine

I did a batch of liquid soap today for my husband auntie and I did IL and Susie's method without glycerin instead I used full water. I did this twice and their ok but this one and the dual lye didn't do the same as my first and second attempts. I stick blender until emulsified and cover it and I did my other house works but after 4 hours I check it and it separates the hard soap on the top and water below. I don't know what to do with it, so I stick blender again and I cook it for 4 hours. My recipe below 

500 g coconut oil
500 g olive oil

752 g distilled water
250.8 koh


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## DeeAnna

You are on the right track, Biarine. If the paste separates, then blend it back together and let it do its thing. My water-only batches tend to be a little more stubborn about separating than the glycerin-water batches, but they all turn out fine in the end.

You honestly don't need to cook it at all, and certainly not for 4 hours, but that's your choice. Just be careful to not cook the water out of the paste, or it will be difficult to dilute.


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## biarine

DeeAnna said:


> You are on the right track, Biarine. If the paste separates, then blend it back together and let it do its thing. My water-only batches tend to be a little more stubborn about separating than the glycerin-water batches, but they all turn out fine in the end.
> 
> You honestly don't need to cook it at all, and certainly not for 4 hours, but that's your choice. Just be careful to not cook the water out of the paste, or it will be difficult to dilute.




Thank you DeeAnn I thought I did wrong that's why it separates. 

I noticed that with my paste that I cook for 3-4 hours tend to be hard to dilutes.


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## rjuconnfan

I have been making dual lye liquid soap cold processed. It comes out like honey, golden and thick but can be poured easily. It has a 0% sf. I use soapee calc. Use 10% Naoh, 90% KOH. I use a 3:1 amount of water to lye. I stick blend every time it separates through applesauce; then just cover and leave it to cook itself. I just check to be sure it is ok every 30 min. It makes a paste, which is thick. Then I put the paste away to set for a while..maybe a week. Then, when you want to dilute, take a portion........I did 12 oz. Pinch it into small pieces into a bowl. Add only 6 oz distilled water, and 3% of the paste in the bowl. Cover and let it sit. After about 3 hrs, look at it and see if it is very thick or dry or if it has some golden soap in the bottom. Leave it alone unless it is very thick. Add only an ounce of distilled water. Do the same, let it alone. After 24 hours it should be almost all diluted and not need any thickener. If it is too thick, dribble a tiny amount of water in..maybe 1/2 ounce. But the key is very little water and let it gradually dilute itself. Try not to stir. It makes a white foam and bubbles. That all disolves on it's own anyway but it may make dilution slower. This all just my experience and I have made two large batches...40 oz oils each time. This process works. I have had success with using just simple recipes......canola or soybean oil and coconut oil. I don't have a good recipe yet that is moisturizing ..it seems to be too stripping. But when I get one I will share. At least I have the process to make it dilute to thick soap. Just wanted to share.


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## shunt2011

This post is over a year old.  Soap is not moisturizing just less cleansing.   The  reason it’s stripping is you are using a 0%SF.  3% is very doable and less stripping. Also, if you’re cooking it it’s not CP.  you can make liquid soap much easier and it doesn’t need to be sequestered. You can dilute soap as soon as it’s zap free.  

There’s a great thread that’s quite long with excellent information for LS made easy.  [emoji3]


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## Anette

jewels621 said:


> I just recently made my first batch of GLS from IL's instructions and they couldn't be more thorough! I did not cook anything after mixing lye and oils and it turned out perfect. I did use a stick blender, and I gotta say....reached the flying bubble stage with both batches I've made, and both times it made me giggle! Went to zap-free paste in less than 2 hours without touching it or cooking it.
> 
> I dilute exactly like IL's instructions, as well. I put my paste, distilled water, and SL in a wide-mouth half-gallon sized canning jar and then let it sit in a simmering hot water bath on top of the stove until it's soft enough to stick blend. Then I let it sit to settle, cool, and dissolve and top foam before I add FO and PS80, and then bottle it.
> 
> I read forever, too, before I actually took the liquid soap plunge, and it was so much easier than I ever thought it would be, thanks to Irish Lass and her fabulous instructions.
> 
> Just do it!


Is there a place where recipes or this recipe from Irish Lass may be found?


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## DeeAnna

To answer your question --

Irish Lass: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=428988 see posts 8 and 9
and: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974

Susie: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Another good resource: https://milesawayfarm.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/liquid-soapmaking-where-to-start/

It's time to let this thread die and start posting in current threads or create your own new threads, please. Necroposting is frowned on in this forum.


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