# swedish guy tries to make soap.



## Tobbelobbe (Feb 23, 2016)

Hey everyone!

Im surprised and so happy that there is an actual forum for soap making! 

I just tried to make my first batch today. 

I prob did tons of things wrong, but i need some help to figure out exactly what i did wrong. So i can learn for next time!

Here is the recipe.

400g Coconut Oil
350g Almond 80% Jojoba 20% mixture
150g Shea Butter

326g Distilled Water
126g Lye

I added in green tea powder to make it green. 
ITS BLACK! idont even know how that happened. It was kinda green at first. 


Its in the oven now, been there for 60min and it looks like its been leaking the almond jojoba mixture. Can this happen? I followed a guide that said i should let the lye mix melt the hard oils and then add in the liquid oils. I personally felt like it took along time to melt them. (I used the room temp method)








If anyone has time to post their opinions on what i did wrong i would really appreciate it!


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## scott312 (Feb 23, 2016)

Hang in there. I just made my first batch a week ago. I have not gathered my report to post..  That's a interesting problem. I'm sure we will know the reason soon.


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## LBussy (Feb 23, 2016)

I am going to go out on a limb and say the tannins turned things (a very dark) brown.  It is also possible that you got a false trace and now you are getting the separation.  

Otherwise, aside from this being a very cleansing (potentially drying) soap, I don't see anything else wrong.  I'd let it go and see what happens.


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## fuzz-juzz (Feb 23, 2016)

Green tea powder probably turned brown/black because of lye. 
There are only few botanical additives that will keep true colour in soap. 
It does look like it's separating. See how you go after they cool down.
But if the batter is still separating, you might need to re batch. If you are sure to know how to do it.
You have to save all the oils and liquids oozing from the soaps.


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## Seawolfe (Feb 23, 2016)

Why is it in the oven? Pls tell me you arent cooking it? If yes, turn it off now. Deep breath! 
If its seperating you might want to dump it all into the crockpot and cook on low for a bit till it comes back together, then blop it back into the molds.
Did you stickblend the soap batter? Can you tell us more about your entire process?

And yes, the lye monster eats most organics - but usually to brown. How much green tea?


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## newbie (Feb 23, 2016)

Yep, separating. How did you mix your oils and lye? How hot were they? We need a lot more detail about how you made your soap so we can help you pinpoint the problem.

If it just keeps spewing oil, you can put it all (including all the seepage) into a crock pot or a stainless steel bowl that will fit over a bigger pan. YOu can heat it in the crock pot until it doesn't zap anymore, or put the bowl over simmering water in a larger pan and cook it that way. it will all come together and then you can mold it again. It will probably stay black, but black soap is pretty classy. 

I would also add that I think jojoba oil in CP is not the best use of an expensive oil like that. I think it's better left for leave on products like lotions or butters. You can get a great soap without using something so pricey, but that is just one person opinion.


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## cmzaha (Feb 23, 2016)

I really hope you have a tray under the molds to catch what is dripping or do not have a self cleaning oven. Lye is very hard on self cleaning ovens. If you can get something to catch what is dripping either get it into a crock pot as mentioned above. You can also add it all to a stainless steel pan stick blend it back together and cook in the oven at 87-104º Celsius checking on it periodically and stick blend if it is still badly separated. I am absolutely not a fan of putting cp soap in the oven.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 24, 2016)

But certainly not anything aluminium - stainless is your safest option


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## Tobbelobbe (Feb 24, 2016)

Wow so many replies! 
What i did.
I put the hard oils in the bowl. Had rhe liquids in a glass. Mixed the lye and water and stirred. I poured the lye mixture on the hard oils to melt them. Stirred for 5 mins untill they mixed. I felt it took a long time. Read a guide that said i should melt rhe hards before adding the liquids. But now i feel like they were added to late.
 I dont have a stick mixer. Im gonna buy one today. Seems like everyone is using them lol!! At first i stirred with a wooden spoon. After 1 hour and it still beeing fully liquid i gave in and sacrificed my electric blender? (The one you hold in your hand with a handle dont remeber the english name xD) and used that for more than one hour!! Lets just say i was starting to feel pretty failed at that point! At this point i was searching for pictures and video of "Kitten Love how does tracing look". I added in the green tea. Yeah prob too much like a 80% of a dl. But i read that green tea would accelerate the trace. And the cedarwood oil.

It was green. Turned black. Night was coming and i hadnt eaten yet. So i thought this might be a light trace and poured it into the molds. In the oven at 77c for 60min.

Im gonna check on them now.

How do i know if they seperated or not? Can they seperate just a bit like in the picture and the rest is fine?

I do not have a crack pot. That name sounds like something you do drugs with xD i have steelpans tho and a huge one that i can fill with water to cook a smaller steelcookingpan in.

How do i tell if its failed? Wait 24hours and slice one of them? 

Gonna buy a termometer and stavemixer today xD


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## Soapmaker145 (Feb 24, 2016)

I find that cedarwood EO slows down and even reverses trace.  It compounded the problem you were having.  The temperature was also fairly low which slows down the initial reaction.  

Depending on how much oil seepage you had, the bars may be OK to use.  However, you have a lot of coconut in your recipe.  The soap will end up too drying.  If you are not opposed to using tallow or lard or if you have some palm oil (not palm kernel), rebatch the bars and add to them about 400g of tallow/lard or palm and about 200g of olive or canola with the extra lye and water needed to saponify the additional oils.  The bars will still be brown but you'll have nice bars after the full cure.  

For a first time, you didn't do too badly and you learned a lot.  You could have easily left the mix alone and had dinner and then came back to finish the job.  Once you have an emulsion, you don't need to stir constantly.

I rarely use a stickblender but I soap at higher temperatures.  I soap in a stainless steel pan directly on the stove using low heat. You don't need a crock pot (not a crack pot), but it is convenient for rebatching.  I use the oven for rebatching.  

Make sure you have protective gear particularly for your eyes before using the stickblender.


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## Tobbelobbe (Feb 24, 2016)

Okay, i have looked at them now, and used a plastic knife to feel them. There seems to be on the ones to the right atleast. A very very thing layer of oil ontop. But the soaps seems solid.


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## BattleGnome (Feb 24, 2016)

Electric hand mixer is the word you are looking for.

Someone will probablycome in with a better explination of trace (I'm still a pretty new soaper) but here's my explination:
I usually compare it to instant pudding or a boxed cake mix. When you first mix the milk with the mix that's emulsification, let it sit a minute and that's trace (when you first can trace something in the top of the batter and have it stay for a second.) a medium trace might be similar to a cake batter, especially a boxed one (I've noticed differences between consistancy of boxed mixes vs from scratch). An instant pudding mix that has been allowed to full set up would be thick trace. 


I have not oven processed a soap yet but the best thing I can add to that is to always turn the oven off before putting the soap in. You might have had a reaction with overheating. Someone more experienced will have to give you advice for that.

Edit: Soapmaker was faster than me on the reply, but my trace explination might stillhelp


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## Tobbelobbe (Feb 24, 2016)

Soapmaker145 said:


> I find that cedarwood EO slows down and even reverses trace.  It compounded the problem you were having.  The temperature was also fairly low which slows down the initial reaction.
> 
> Depending on how much oil seepage you had, the bars may be OK to use.  However, you have a lot of coconut in your recipe.  The soap will end up too drying.  If you are not opposed to using tallow or lard or if you have some palm oil (not palm kernel), rebatch the bars and add to them about 400g of tallow/lard or palm and about 200g of olive or canola with the extra lye and water needed to saponify the additional oils.  The bars will still be brown but you'll have nice bars after the full cure.
> 
> ...




Tons of good tips in this thread. Thanks to everyone for taking time to answer! 

I did not know that the coconutoil would make it dry! I use coconut oil for other stuff like body butter and i thought it would be the opposite! Lesson learned! 
Is there anything else than lard / Palm oil? I can get a hold of canola oil without a problem but im trying to make it vegan also. Palm oil is hard to get a hold of in sweden. We are very political correct to the extreme. The only Palm Oil you can find here is severly overpriced super ecological organic. It costs like jojoba -.-; 

I wont use cedarwood again then.

Main question for now tho.

How do i check if they are fine or not? 

If they are not fine, can i just put the soaps on a steel pan on the oven and melt it down, and then add the other oils and the new lye mix? Is it that simple? If the trace never happens. Can heating it up more help? 

It is confusing when people dont need a mixer sometimes and its done in 5-10min and i stood for 2 hours and it still didnt trace well enough (I think)


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 24, 2016)

If you're not vegan, I would look at lard. It makes a great soap. 

I would use a stainless steel saucepan rather than something too shallow. You want to have some height in case it starts to try to grow too much (sometimes soap can try to get out of the pot!)


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## BattleGnome (Feb 24, 2016)

Use the zapp test to see if you need to alter the soap. I'm having trouble with my tablet, but there is a thread in the lye-based forum about it.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 24, 2016)

With the Zap test, I follow this routine - 

Wet a finger and rub it on the soap.  Wait for a tingle on my finger.
When no tingle, touch the finger to my tongue.  
If I feel no zap (like putting a 9-volt battery on your tongue) I then touch a soap itself to my tongue.


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## Tobbelobbe (Feb 24, 2016)

Man soapmaking is crazy. I looked like a scene from breaking bad yesterday when i tried to avoid getting lye on anything. Now im meant to LICK it? Have i overestimated how bad lye can be? 

So there is no point in like cutting one of them? To see if they are solid all the way through?

To above, i am not vegan. But im trying to make it more accessible for friends who are vegan! Is there any way i can add almond oil or avocado oil instead of palm oil? 

Picking up canola oil on my way from work today.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 24, 2016)

Each oil brings something to a soap and most cannot be exchanged without compromising something. Lard/tallow/palm brings a hardness to the bar and a creaminess to the lather. 

I would make soap for you, not for your friends. Especially at the start - there is no way the first few batches should be considered for gifting unless they are okay after a lot of testing.


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## BattleGnome (Feb 24, 2016)

I cant give you too much advice on which oil to use but I will say I regret sharing my first batch with my sister. 
It's a small piece of how you've grown as a soaper to hoard. I just used a bar from my first batch (only 7-8 months old) and there's a huge difference between what it was and where it is now. I dont really mind giving away soap from other batches but I kind of wish I could use a piece every 6months or so for the next ten years to see how the soap changes and how I've changed as a soaper.


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## Tobbelobbe (Feb 24, 2016)

Sorry for not beeing clear about this.
Im not giving away something that is not top notch. What i meant is. I dont mind at all taking 10 tries to make a good product if that what it takes. But my goal is to have it Vegan!

Is there a good database on what each oil / ingrediens does to a soap? 

BTW about the zap. If it stings on the tounge. Is the soap BAD? and should be redone. The goal is for it to not sting right? Maybe an obvious question but i want to make sure not to do any more simple mistakes!


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## dixiedragon (Feb 24, 2016)

when I put my soap in the oven, I put a dishtowel on the tray b/c it's aluminum and put the soap mold on that. To my eye, it looks like it got too  hot and separated. I think a crockpot will save it. If you don't have a crockpot, put it back in your soaping pot, put the heat on LOW, and stir!

here are some good pics:
http://gracefruit.blogspot.com/2006/01/crock-pot-hot-process-soap-tutorial.html

You don't want to pour the soap in the mold while it is separated. When it is thick and translucent, like vasaline, it's ready.


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## Tobbelobbe (Feb 24, 2016)

I didnt think it could overheat from 77c only. 
The main problem i felt was that i had it at a point where all ingrediens were mixed fine, it was a pure mixture so to speak. But it was never near vasaline. Not even after 2 hours. It was still runny.


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## traderbren (Feb 24, 2016)

Tobbelobbe said:


> Man soapmaking is crazy. I looked like a scene from breaking bad yesterday when i tried to avoid getting lye on anything. Now im meant to LICK it? Have i overestimated how bad lye can be?


No, you have not overestimated how bad it can be. Lye should be respected but not necessarily feared. Try the process TEG described with the wet finger, then tongue.



> So there is no point in like cutting one of them? To see if they are solid all the way through?


when you push gently on one corner, how much give is there? Has the liquid on top absorbed yet? You can cut into one if you like, but if it feels firm and liquid has absorbed, and it does not zap, you most likely are okay.



> To above, i am not vegan. But im trying to make it more accessible for friends who are vegan! Is there any way i can add almond oil or avocado oil instead of palm oil?
> 
> Picking up canola oil on my way from work today.


Lard is easy to soap with, although you will want to be sure it is melted (and don't let it get too hot or it might smell piggy). It sets up to a nice hard bar with a 4-6 week cure. Once you get into more more liquid oils, your cure time will be longer and you will have much longer to wait between testing batches to find what you like. Make soap for you first, and then once you are comfortable with the process tweak it more for your friends.



Tobbelobbe said:


> Sorry for not beeing clear about this.
> Im not giving away something that is not top notch. What i meant is. I dont mind at all taking 10 tries to make a good product if that what it takes. But my goal is to have it Vegan!
> 
> Is there a good database on what each oil / ingrediens does to a soap?



http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/mas_assets/theme/ngc/pdf/soapoils.pdf



> BTW about the zap. If it stings on the tounge. Is the soap BAD? and should be redone. The goal is for it to not sting right? Maybe an obvious question but i want to make sure not to do any more simple mistakes!


If it zaps, you will know it. It's not a taste, its a definite zap, like a battery. The goal is no zap.


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## JPicasso (Feb 24, 2016)

*I hope it's not too soon*

Sweden is so metal, even their soap is black!  \m/

Seriously, new to this hobby myself.  Learning a lot from your soap adventure.  



As for an all vegetable batch, my first was Canolive II  at millersoap.com.  It's working for me, although with no scents,  if it stays wet, it starts to smell like you're rubbing vegetable oil on yourself.  It doesn't stay, just when you're actually using it, so keep that in mind.  If I make it again, I'll put a scent in it, and let it cure for at least 8 weeks or more.


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## dixiedragon (Feb 24, 2016)

Google "soap making properties of oils" to find out what oils do what. Here's one I like:
http://summerbeemeadow.com/

While not technically vegan, is beeswax an option for you? I love 5% beeswax it makes a VERY hard soap!

Regarding coconut oil - saponified (meaning turned into soap) coconut oil is totally different than coconut oil by itself. Soap is like that - there are some general rules that USUALLY hold true, but there are exceptions for every one. For example, most oils that make a hard bar of soap - like tallow and palm - speed trace. Except lard. (((((lard))))). Most oils that make a soft bar of soap slow trace. Except castor. 

I've never soaped with these, but a bar that was 100% soy wax got some good reviews. 
http://www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm


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## cmzaha (Feb 24, 2016)

Cedarwood like any EO or FO is going to be dependent on the type and supplier. I love cedarwood and have several different ones, some slow trace others do not, but none that I have accelerate trace.

Tobbleobbe, You mentioned steel pans are these stainless steel?


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## Soapmaker145 (Feb 24, 2016)

Tobbelobbe said:


> Tons of good tips in this thread. Thanks to everyone for taking time to answer!
> 
> I did not know that the coconutoil would make it dry! I use coconut oil for other stuff like body butter and i thought it would be the opposite! Lesson learned!
> Is there anything else than lard / Palm oil? I can get a hold of canola oil without a problem but im trying to make it vegan also. Palm oil is hard to get a hold of in sweden. We are very political correct to the extreme. The only Palm Oil you can find here is severly overpriced super ecological organic. It costs like jojoba -.-;
> ...



You got a ton of great advice.  I'll add my 2 cents.  First, don't give up on Cedarwood EO.  Just learn to work with it, just like you have to learn how to use any other ingredient.  

If you want to keep it vegan, use butters.  You can add another 10% shea or mango or cocoa butter.  It'll help make the bars harder faster. You'll need to experiment with butters to figure out how much you can add before the soaps start feeling waxy to you.  

There is nothing wrong with using all olive or a mix of olive and canola for the extra.  You may need a longer cure if you use all liquid oils. Run the recipe through soapcalc and try to keep the linoleic acid at 10% or less.  

As far as coconut, keep the percentage between 15% (for a milder soap) and 25% (for a more cleansing soap) for the first few batches.  This is true for all oils that have high percentages of lauric and myristic fatty acids.  They give you the bubbles and the cleansing.  Once you know what they contribute to soap, you can play around with ratios.  Jojoba is a wax and doesn't saponify for the most part.  Don't use it until you have a basic recipe you like (like coconut, shea, olive/canola/almond).  Then you can add Jojoba to it to see if it makes a difference in the quality of the soap.  The mix of oils determines how long it takes a soap batter to trace.  There is nothing wrong with using a stickblender but I prefer a wisk.  Your recipe combined with the low temperature is slow tracing. 

I'm assuming you bought the Jojoba premixed with other oils.  Try to avoid buying premixed oils because if the percentage they give you is wrong, you end up using the wrong amount of lye.

If you decide to rebatch, you need to cut the soaps up into as small pieces as possible and put them in the oven to start them melting.  Some people use double boiler, or a stove top (electric stove on very low setting with frequent stirring), or a bag in boiling water.  There is no right or wrong way.  I tried various ways and I find the oven easier. I just stir it once in a while.  Once it is more fluid, add the additional oils and lye and mix it to thick trace this time.  You can even premix the additional lye and oils before adding them to the melted soap.  The final soap will look like a rebatch.  

When you unmold the soap, post a picture.

Expect to spend some serious time reading the many great threads about everything soap on this forum and have fun .


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## Seawolfe (Feb 24, 2016)

One more thing to remember  - if you are using ANY metal other than stainless steel in making or curing your soaps, you risk some nasty reactions. Especially with aluminium.
Thats why you need to be sure you dont drip soap batter in your oven.

 And yes, you need a stickblender.


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## penelopejane (Feb 24, 2016)

I don't use palm or lard or tallow. 

Olive oil makes a great soap all on its own - Castile soap - but it takes 6 months to cure hard (so it doesn't melt away too quickly in the shower) and is even better after a year it is a very hard bar but very gentle on the skin. 

You can add any percent of OO to a soap and it is lovely. Is it available where you are

Regarding this batch - if the oil is seeping out it will not be incorporated in the soap so the recipe will be changed. It might be usable if it goes hard but it will never be good. 

If lye gets on your skin or in your eyes it burns. Chemical burns can be severe. I don't know why people here want to torture themselves with zap testing but it is a method to see if the soap has saponified - that is the lye has completed its chemical change and is no longer dangerous or present in the soap.

70*C is way too high. I heat the oven to 40 * C, wrap my soap in a blanket and turn the oven off before putting it in the oven and leave it overnight. This makes it gel all the way through. 

Emulsification is when the mix is thin but coats a spoon - doesn't slide off. 
Trace is like thin custard where you can dribble part of the mix on top of the batter and it holds its shape even for a second. Thick trace is like thicker but still runny custard.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 24, 2016)

"...I don't know why people here want to torture themselves with zap testing..."

<...chuckle...> If done sensibly, it's no worse than tweezing one's eyebrows. Or getting a static shock in dry winter air. Not nearly as horrendous as it seems to those who have never tried it. :mrgreen:


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## Tobbelobbe (Feb 24, 2016)

I already love this forum! So much activity ;D

Gonna try and answer all questions!

I have actually premixed the oils. I got really good oils from a british company that i already had premixed for my beard oils. Will not use that one again. It was listed on a things you could use for soap list so i just figured it was nice to use it for that too.

Yes my steel pans with high borders, cooking pots? are stainless. Had them for years! But i think im gonna use the double boiler method. 

Its been 24hours and i removed them now. They were actually solid. But i was able to break them in half without breaking a sweat ofc. But i can see that something did not go right. 
Things like long cure time, i dont mind that to save this batch at all!.

If im gonna remake this, do i just melt it and wait for trace to happen? Or do i need to do the lye mixture again, and if so. How do i calculate how much? 

Here is the pictures! It looks like chaos ;D I would say like 1% was leaked in the molds. Some was pure black soggy and the rest was golden pure oil kinda.


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## Soapmaker145 (Feb 24, 2016)

From the pictures, I think your coconut and shea did not melt completely when you first added the lye.  You only have partial saponification because a lot of your solid oils weren't available to react.  If you are sure you did not lose too much of the original mix, go ahead and melt the bars.  You should be able to get the mix fairly fluid.  Don't be afraid to heat it.  You can easily go up to 150F.  You may find that the mix will trace properly by itself once all the oils are melted and stirred properly.  Be careful because you have a lot of unreacted lye.  No zap test.


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## newbie (Feb 24, 2016)

Oh dear. Not to worry, with perseverance, you will make fabulous soap. 

The stick blender will help. You don't NEED one to make soap; you could soap hotter and use a whisk but a stick blender is a very convenient tool, so that for some recipes you aren't standing there for 2 hours stirring. I did the same thing with my first soap but I didn't heat it so it held together. 

Doing a zap test is not like pouring lye beads onto your tongue so it is by no means torture. It will give you a little zingy sensation which is different from it tasting bad. Once you have a real positive zap test, you will know the difference from ash or FO or just soap taste. It's not nearly as bad as the uninitiated think it to be. 

I have gotten quite a kick out of this thread. I like your sense of humor, TBL.


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## Tobbelobbe (Feb 25, 2016)

Im gonna try and melt it tommorow! Gotta work night today ; ( 
I followed a guide that said i did not need to melt the hard oils first, just pour in the lye and let it melt them. I feel like that was a retarded choice. I got so stressed standing there why the hell isnt this melting, is it hot? Well im wasnt gonna stick down a finger even tho i had super sexy pink gloves which happened to match the soap molds. And my girlfriend calls from me every 20 min between her HOTS games. "Hows it going?"
ITS GOING FINE DONT COME HERE. It felt like it was taking to long. Next time im gonna melt them a bit before that ;O; 

But hey, Look at the color! Its KINDA green! So i guess not everything failed ;D


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## traderbren (Feb 25, 2016)

You have a great attitude. You will be fine. Please let us know how the rebatching turns out!


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## penelopejane (Feb 25, 2016)

There are lots of soap making videos but I like soaping101.com this is her rebatching video:  some videos say the wrong thing. Soaping 101 videos seem pretty good:
[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_7nl3Y0gacc[/ame]


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