# Labeling woes



## elmtree (Jun 24, 2014)

So out of 12 markets I've done ( I know, not a lot yet), I haven't seen one vendor label their products in the way everyone here is always saying it should be done. I realize that soap technically doesn't even have to be labeled with ingredients, but when it IS labeled, shouldn't it be done correctly? lotions/cosmetics I know have strict guidelines but I have yet to see those properly labeled as well. For example 
Lotion label
Olive, shea butter, beeswax, sunflower, essential oils and or fragrance, preservative (or says brand name of the preservative)...
Soap is similarly labeled, usually just stating may contain oils of.... And essential oil blend or fragrance 

I've had customers say I have a long ingredient list compared to others but I use inci nomenclature as well as common name as is required by FDA. So...each of my ingredients has two names making the label seem long. I also use phenoxyethanol, sorbic acid... You get the idea. How do I respond to these customers? How can I tactfully state that Im just following the law?


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## Susie (Jun 24, 2014)

You just say, "I prefer follow the law."

Following the law does not require explanation or justification.  You are not saying anything bad about the other vendors.  If you absolutely must prove it to someone, print out the law where it is stated.  Keep it in your purse or somewhere inconspicuous, but available for if/when the other vendors come challenge you.


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## gurdeep (Jun 24, 2014)

You don't need to label as long as you have a list of ingredients on your stall that was what I learned from trading standards so I would do that than have long labels


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## shunt2011 (Jun 24, 2014)

I label all my products with INCI and basic names.   It's required to labeled on all products other than soap.  I also label my soaps though too.


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## maya (Jun 24, 2014)

elmtree said:


> I've had customers say I have a long ingredient list compared to others but I use inci nomenclature as well as common name as is required by FDA. So...each of my ingredients has two names making the label seem long. I also use phenoxyethanol, sorbic acid... You get the idea. How do I respond to these customers? How can I tactfully state that Im just following the law?




This is not a woe, this is an opportunity for you to explain to people why you label with your full ingredient listing according to the law. 

I label all my soap and cosmetic products with the INCI and common  names, with tinctures and other herbal items I label with the botanical  name, common name, lot #, mfg date, ratios, etc. etc. etc.

I might say "I use the best ingredients available and I am proud of them so I list them fully on my package, that way I am both following the law and showing people exactly what they are purchasing." or something like that.


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## elmtree (Jun 24, 2014)

gurdeep said:


> You don't need to label as long as you have a list of ingredients on your stall that was what I learned from trading standards so I would do that than have long labels




This is not true for cosmetics. Labels must be on products and be able to be read and include inci and common names for each ingredient. This is regulated by the FDA. Federal regulations are not something to mess with. I'm not sure why craft fair organizers would say this was ok.  Seeing what the government does to farms that sell raw milk, they obviously have nothing better to do than to find and harass the little guy.


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## elmtree (Jun 24, 2014)

maya said:


> This is not a woe, this is an opportunity for you to explain to people why you label with your full ingredient listing according to the law.
> 
> I label all my soap and cosmetic products with the INCI and common  names, with tinctures and other herbal items I label with the botanical  name, common name, lot #, mfg date, ratios, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I might say "I use the best ingredients available and I am proud of them so I list them fully on my package, that way I am both following the law and showing people exactly what they are purchasing." or something like that.




Yes, very good explanation! Thank you! Good idea.


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## elmtree (Jun 24, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> I label all my products with INCI and basic names.   It's required to labeled on all products other than soap.  I also label my soaps though too.




I label everything as well. There are so many allergies and so many ingredients people don't want in their soaps etc that why even risk it. Plus,
I do like putting my ingredients on because I do have a nice looking list of oils! Thanks everyone!


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## cmzaha (Jun 24, 2014)

I label everything with INCI and basic, plus a very I have a warning label such as peppermint soap


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## elmtree (Jun 24, 2014)

cmzaha said:


> I label everything with INCI and basic, plus a very I have a warning label such as peppermint soap




This is a good idea as well and I have been thinking of doing this myself. I verbally counsel customers on pregnancy, nursing, and epilepsy and essential oil usage as much as possible.  Thanks cmzaha!


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## pamielynn (Jun 24, 2014)

I label my soap with common names, but everything else with INCI. It does, however, irk me when I see labels or websites without any type of ingredient lists. "What are you hiding?"


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## lenarenee (Jun 24, 2014)

maya said:


> This is not a woe, this is an opportunity for you to explain to people why you label with your full ingredient listing according to the law.
> 
> I label all my soap and cosmetic products with the INCI and common names, with tinctures and other herbal items I label with the botanical name, common name, lot #, mfg date, ratios, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I might say "I use the best ingredients available and I am proud of them so I list them fully on my package, that way I am both following the law and showing people exactly what they are purchasing." or something like that.


 
I think you said that very well!


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## Dorymae (Jun 25, 2014)

I am going to give you the FDA's cosmetic labeling requirements because you DO NOT have to label in both ways.

*Identification of Ingredients by Name*


*The name established by the commissioner as specified in § 701.30.*
*The name adopted for the ingredient as listed in:
*
*     (a) CTFA Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionary
     (b) United States Pharmacopeia
     (c) National Formulary
     (d) Food Chemical Codex
     (e) USAN and the USP Dictionary of Drug Names
*
*The name generally recognized by consumers*
*The chemical or technical name or description*
 *21 CFR 701.3(c) *
 Section  701.3(c) requires that an ingredient be identified by the name  established by the Commissioner for the purpose of cosmetic ingredient  labeling or, in the absence of a name established by the Commissioner,  the name adopted for that ingredient in the editions and supplements of  the compendia listed below.
 The Commissioner may establish a name  as petitioned or propose such a name on his own initiative. See section  701.3(e). The names specified by the Commissioner are listed in section  701.30.
 The currently recognized edition of the CTFA (Cosmetic,  Toiletry and Fragrance Association, Inc.) *Cosmetic Ingredient Dictionary  is the second edition published in 1977*. This edition is recognized  only in part, i.e., not all names listed in the second edition have been  adopted.
 The third edition of the CTFA Cosmetic Ingredient  Dictionary published in 1982 and the Supplement published in 1985 have  not yet been recognized. However, FDA has informed the CTFA that the  agency will not take regulatory action against products labeled in  accordance with these editions while their review is in progress.
 The  compendia are listed in the descending order by which they must be  utilized for identification of an ingredient name.* If none lists a name  for an ingredient, the name generally recognized by consumers, or the  chemical or technical name or description, must be used.*

I understand you like using both but it is not necessary.  If you are wondering where the dictionary that lists the name of the ingredients can be found it is here:  https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr/003/cfta.cosmetic.1977.pdf

Note that most ingredients are in their common names as well.  So cocoa butter is there, so is Apricot kernel oil, and most others.

Now I'm assuming you are in the US, because if not I have no idea what is required.  However using common names in cosmetics is not a bad thing, it is not the law that you need to use the chemical names.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 25, 2014)

I know that in the UK, INCI is expected - nothing else in required, but you must have the INCI names.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 25, 2014)

"...I use inci nomenclature as well as common name as is required by FDA..."

If y'all are in the USA, that is NOT what the FDA says. Please read this May 2013 article from Marie Gale who specializes in this issue: http://blog.mariegale.com/botanical-names-ingredient-declarations/

Summary: "...Based on some fairly recently posted information on the FDA website, it is now clear that common names are required, and when used as a secondary listing, Latin names are accepted. *Although the “INCI name” (which usually means the Latin name) is commonly thought to be required, it isn’t – it’s optional*...."

As Dorymae points out, this is not true in other countries.


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## elmtree (Jun 25, 2014)

Very interesting indeed! It seems that many people are confused by the previously wishy washy FDA regulations. This does clear things up for me. How does this work for emulsifiers and ingredients with several ingredients in them? Like BTMS for example? I've seen numerous labels that state 'essential and or fragrance oils'. Isn't it really important that each essential oil be included? I mean pregnant, epileptic, elderly, the infirm, and children may use these products not realizing that one or more essential oils may not be safe for them.


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## Dorymae (Jun 25, 2014)

elmtree said:


> Very interesting indeed! It seems that many people are confused by the previously wishy washy FDA regulations. This does clear things up for me. How does this work for emulsifiers and ingredients with several ingredients in them? Like BTMS for example? I've seen numerous labels that state 'essential and or fragrance oils'. Isn't it really important that each essential oil be included? I mean pregnant, epileptic, elderly, the infirm, and children may use these products not realizing that one or more essential oils may not be safe for them.




BTMS or Behentrimonium Methosulfate is not listed in the cosmetics dictionary.  Therefore you may choose to either use the most common name BTMS or the chemical name .  If you are using BTMS 50 and choose to use the chemical name you would need to use  Behentrimonium methosulfate (and) cetyl alcohol (and) butylene glycol  or you could just say BTMS-50.

As for essential oils and fragrance oils it is fine legally to list them as such.  However remember no matter how you label them YOU are responsible for the safety of your product.  So if you are using a essential oil you know should not be used by pregnant women it would be prudent not only to list the name of the essential oil but also a warning on the label that the product is not intended to be used by pregnant women.

Added a disclaimer that I am not an attorney - I just read a lot.


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## hmlove1218 (Jun 25, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> "...I use inci nomenclature as well as common name as is required by FDA..."
> 
> If y'all are in the USA, that is NOT what the FDA says. Please read this May 2013 article from Marie Gale who specializes in this issue: http://blog.mariegale.com/botanical-names-ingredient-declarations/
> 
> ...



 I've seen this issue go round and round so many times that my head spins at the thought.. What is the proper way to label cosmetics? Common name (INCI name) or INCI (common name) or just common name?


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## Dorymae (Jun 25, 2014)

Common name is correct and what the FDA wants and expects.  However they will accept the common name first and then the INCI name in ( )'s if you wish to include it.

Again not an attorney, I just read the FDA website.


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## hmlove1218 (Jun 25, 2014)

That's what I thought too after I read a Soap Queen post and the FDA website but then I was told that it should be in INCI format so I changed all of my labels because I just assumed I had misinterpreted.


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## Dorymae (Jun 25, 2014)

No you were right.  I think a lot of the confusion happens because the EU has so much stricter standards that people assume we do too.  When your in a big forum such as this and there are many people from all over the world it is easy to get confused.


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## Lindy (Jun 27, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> No you were right. I think a lot of the confusion happens because the EU has so much stricter standards that people assume we do too. When your in a big forum such as this and there are many people from all over the world it is easy to get confused.


 
 I agree - even though this forum is predominately American there are other nationalities here that must follow different regulations.  I think when we are discussing regs we should specify for which country we are talking about.  Even though we share a border the Canadian labeling laws are sooooo different from the US's FDA regs.  We could be on different continents for how different it is...


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## rogue (Jul 4, 2014)

Ok, so here's a crazy question I'm stuck on after ready the FDA regs like 4 times:

Do I or do I not list ethyl alcohol on my handmade transparent bars? I'm using everclear 190 proof not denatured so label issue 1. Label issue 2 there is absolutely none in there by the time anybody sees this soap. Nada, zip. It's all evaporated. So does it fall into the processing/ defoaming it's gone poof rule? 

Labeling is giving me more headaches than my stupid taxes at this point  grumpy face


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## KristaY (Jul 4, 2014)

maya said:


> I might say "I use the best ingredients available and I am proud of them so I list them fully on my package, that way I am both following the law and showing people exactly what they are purchasing." or something like that.



 Well said, Maya! To the point without directly putting down the competitors that choose not to individually label their soaps. Very diplomatic and makes a positive statement about the care you give when creating your soaps.


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## Dorymae (Jul 4, 2014)

rogue said:


> Ok, so here's a crazy question I'm stuck on after ready the FDA regs like 4 times:
> 
> Do I or do I not list ethyl alcohol on my handmade transparent bars? I'm using everclear 190 proof not denatured so label issue 1. Label issue 2 there is absolutely none in there by the time anybody sees this soap. Nada, zip. It's all evaporated. So does it fall into the processing/ defoaming it's gone poof rule?
> 
> Labeling is giving me more headaches than my stupid taxes at this point  grumpy face



You have a choice to label either what went into your soap (then you would include it) or what IS NOW in your soap (then you would not need to)  If you want to list what is now in your soap you can list the oils as saponified oil of --------.


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## rogue (Jul 4, 2014)

That makes me feel a bit better.


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## Genny (Jul 4, 2014)

rogue said:


> Ok, so here's a crazy question I'm stuck on after ready the FDA regs like 4 times:
> 
> Do I or do I not list ethyl alcohol on my handmade transparent bars? I'm using everclear 190 proof not denatured so label issue 1. Label issue 2 there is absolutely none in there by the time anybody sees this soap. Nada, zip. It's all evaporated. So does it fall into the processing/ defoaming it's gone poof rule?
> 
> Labeling is giving me more headaches than my stupid taxes at this point  grumpy face



If you're labeling your soaps already by what's going in the pot, then you'd list the alcohol as well.  Also, I remember reading somewhere about this, but it was with the alcohol in MP and the fact that there could be trace amounts of alcohol in it and that's why suppliers have it on the ingredient labels.


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## Genny (Jul 4, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> If you want to list what is now in your soap you can list the oils as saponified oil of --------.




The FDA does not recognize the words "saponified oil of".  I asked them directly about this and they said that would be incorrect.


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## SparksnFlash (Jul 4, 2014)

maya said:


> This is not a woe, this is an opportunity for you to explain to people why you label with your full ingredient listing according to the law.
> 
> I label all my soap and cosmetic products with the INCI and common names, with tinctures and other herbal items I label with the botanical name, common name, lot #, mfg date, ratios, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I might say "I use the best ingredients available and I am proud of them so I list them fully on my package, that way I am both following the law and showing people exactly what they are purchasing." or something like that.



 Nothing to add - Maya said it all!!


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## Dorymae (Jul 4, 2014)

Genny said:


> The FDA does not recognize the words "saponified oil of".  I asked them directly about this and they said that would be incorrect.




I was told this was accepted.  I have however been wrong before and certainly will be again.  I'll double check that information.

I have sent an email to the FDA to clarify.  I will post the letter and the response in full when I receive an answer.


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## Celestial Balance (Jul 23, 2014)

saponified oils of is not correct. If you list what comes out of the pot it must be sodium cocoate, sodium olivate, etc..the actual chemical it turns into once it is soap. Now the hard part is this.... soap making creates glycerin..how much? You have to know how much to know where it falls in the list of ingredients and it DOES need to be included. Also there is the issue of superfatting, now you have sodium olivate AND you have olive oil..but in what amounts? Tossing it in at trace does not promise anything, so unless you pay for testing you can never have your soap properly labeled by what comes out of the pot. This would mean your labels are misbranded and that is whole different federal agency that can bite you. The best way to label is what goes into the pot. 

As for everclear. I would never ever tell anyone that is what goes into my soap and I would never put it on a label. I would go with ethanol. If you list everclear then you are opening yourself up to the ATF and you do NOT want to do that. 

Common name is acceptable for all ingredients EXCEPT herbs. Herbs must have both common name and INCI name. I just choose to do common and (INCI) in parenthesis and call it a day. 

You do not have to divulge your EO blend as scent is protected but it is always a good idea to list it anyways. As someone else posted, better to be safe than sorry.


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## HoneyLady (Jul 23, 2014)

Ergh!  What a headache!  It's almost as much fun as figuring taxes! :thumbdown:

 It does not matter what the *FDA* says about "saponified oils of".  The *FDA rules apply to* *drugs and cosmetics*.  They specifically state their rules do *not* apply to *SOAPS*.

 Technically, the Consumer Products Safety Commission is in charge of Soaps.  Except, they have no enforcement authority and are not a government agency.  :roll:

 Unless you are making claims that your soap heals dry skin, soothes eczema, clears acne, is deodorant, or _does anything besides_ clean your body, a soap is not regulated.  

 A _syndet _is regulated, and this is where much confusion arises.  Don't compare yourself to the stuff on the grocery selves.  *Any bar making claims is a drug, and is regulated.*

 Heaven forbid it should be simple, or helpful to small businesses. :silent:

 I don't know if it would be better to have labyrinthine rules a la the EU, or a confusing mess a la the US.  Seems like we're darned if we do, and darned if we don't. 

 Good Luck!
 ~HoneyLady~


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## CanaDawn (Jul 23, 2014)

Celestial Balance said:


> Common name is acceptable for all ingredients EXCEPT herbs. Herbs must have both common name and INCI name. I just choose to do common and (INCI) in parenthesis and call it a day.



I'm glad I kept reading, because as a biologist, I couldn't fathom how common name was going to be better than the Latin (common names vary wildly, while the Latin is consistent)


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## green soap (Jul 23, 2014)

In the USA, the Consumer Products Safety Commission regulates soap, NOT THE FDA.

Per their rules (the Consumer Products Safety Commission) soap must be labeled as follows:

It must say it is soap.

It must state the soap's weight.

It must state who you are (the soap manufacturer) and how to find you.

No ingredient list is needed.  

Some of us (in the US) list ingredients to satisfy our customers.  My customers read labels very carefully and they would be unhappy if I stopped listing the ingredients in my soaps.  So I label my ingredients in the way that is the most helpful to them (plain English works well), and so they also realize I put some nice fancy ingredients in there (justifying the cost of the product).  I also state that it is soap, how heavy and who I am of course (abiding by the rules we do have).

Also, it is incredible how many allergies there are.   I realize I can just list 'essential oils' but this would not be helpful to someone trying to avoid let's say...rosemary.  So I list all of them in the order used, and I know someone could copy my blends, which have taken a while to develop, but I rather have this situation than have someone with a specific EO allergy have a bad reaction to my soap.  If they have a bad reaction to rosemary EO and I did not list it in the ingredients, then I feel it would be my fault (ethically, if not legally).  

So I list every single ingredient, but I do it for my customers, not to follow the 'law' - which is non existent in the US.  Also, I chose to list the ingredients that are in the final product, not what I start with, as I feel this is the most useful information to the consumer.  

If your soap is a cosmetic then what I said above does not apply and you must abide by the FDA regulations.   This is not so hard though, it just means listing the ingredients in the order used.   

There was a question on super-fat and glycerin.  Your glycerine is from 9% to 12% of the initial oil's weight, so in most cases your retained glycerine is above your super-fat in the list order.  If you do salt soaps, normally super-fatted 20%, then your extra fat is above the glycerine.


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## Dorymae (Jul 23, 2014)

If you are claiming moisturizing it is not a drug it is a cosmetic.  If however you claim it helps to heal or treat any condition such as acne, or dermatitis then it is a drug,  So you could need to know 3 regulations if you have different types of soap.

Regulations for soap - no claims
Regulations for cosmetic - claims like beautifies, moisturizes
Regulations for drugs - claims like helps acne, or damaged skin


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## Celestial Balance (Jul 24, 2014)

green soap said:


> In the USA, the Consumer Products Safety Commission regulates soap, NOT THE FDA.
> 
> 
> So I list every single ingredient, but I do it for my customers, not to follow the 'law' - which is non existent in the US.  Also, I chose to list the ingredients that are in the final product, not what I start with, as I feel this is the most useful information to the consumer.



You are correct if it is ONLY soap and ONLY cleans and you never say anything else like it is great for dry skin or moisturizing then you do not have to label. The problem with your statement is that the moment you do list ingredients you must do so correctly and in the same way that cosmetics list ingredients. Unless you are testing you cannot possibly know for sure the highest to lowest ingredients. 




> There was a question on super-fat and glycerin.  Your glycerine is from 9% to 12% of the initial oil's weight, so in most cases your retained glycerine is above your super-fat in the list order.  If you do salt soaps, normally super-fatted 20%, then your extra fat is above the glycerine.



If you are using one oil only I guess that might be easy to do but when you use more than one oil what is left over in the superfat would have to be listed too. Some oils produce more glycerin then others and some are more easily converted by the lye then others. Some have unsaponifiables and some do not. You would have to list every oils as sodium ____, and just plain _____ oil. That increases your label size! You would have to do a zero superfat, hot process it to full cook, zap test it and THEN add your super fat oil to even begin to come close to truly knowing what is in your finished product or pay for lab testing. I find most people list out of the pot because they think people are afraid of lye or they do not know how or are too timid to educate their clients. I enjoy any opportunity I have to educate someone. I have not lost a sale yet do to listing lye.


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## HoneyLady (Jul 24, 2014)

As I understand it (there's your warning) if you ARE making claims for your soap -- moisturizing, or acne clearing, and therefore a cosmetic or drug -- your product must also be TESTED AND REGISTERED or you are committing fraud.

 As has been noted, the regs are confusing, and not easily understood, so all the caveats apply.  That was MY take away from much research and discussion.

 I will also offer that my experience in tracking down regulations and their applications in several areas has led me to 2 conclusions: 1.) Most regulators and enforcement authorities often have muddy understandings of the regs they enforce themselves.  2.) A lot depends upon the agent you are speaking to just then, and what sort of day s/he has had.

 As an example, got into a case of head scratching with the IRS a few years ago.  One office sent a letter requesting X information and clarification, which I duly sent.  A second office in a different state then sent me a letter asking WHY I had done that.  I replied, and sent a copy of the first letter.  It went back and forth for a while, getting conflicting data from the two offices ("you owe us money", "don't pay anything, we're sending a refund") for over a year.  Finally, I was able to convince one agent to call the other, instead of both going through ME, to resolve the issue.  Turns out BOTH were wrong, and their superiors agreed on an answer.  :clap:

 People do the best they can, with what they understand, with the least amount of fuss.  But that can leave us with our heads spinning. :roll:

 I list ingredients as a courtesy, but most people ASK, even as they read, I've discovered.

 Also, I *believe* we are not required to list glycerin unless we have added it to the soap as an ingredient, as it is a natural by-product of the saponification process. 

 When I'm elected Queen of the Universe, you may be sure I'm going to simplify things! :angel:

 ~HoneyLady~


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## rogue (Jul 26, 2014)

Celestial Balance said:


> As for everclear. I would never ever tell anyone that is what goes into my soap and I would never put it on a label. I would go with ethanol. If you list everclear then you are opening yourself up to the ATF and you do NOT want to do that.
> 
> Common name is acceptable for all ingredients EXCEPT herbs. Herbs must have both common name and INCI name. I just choose to do common and (INCI) in parenthesis and call it a day.
> .




Here's where I get into my mess. Inci states to use alcohol denatured. Which is not what I'm using. I'd list alcohol, I just acquire it as Everclear 191 because have you ever tried to just buy a gallon of denatured alcohol? It's easier to get God over for dinner on Sunday nite for dinner. They want you to buy it by the 55gallon drum &/or pay like $100 a gallon plus crazy shipping. 
The glycerine/clear soap came out so beautiful & I know MP is way easier and similar but it's just so cool


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## Dorymae (Jul 27, 2014)

HoneyLady said:


> As I understand it (there's your warning) if you ARE making claims for your soap -- moisturizing, or acne clearing, and therefore a cosmetic or drug -- your product must also be TESTED AND REGISTERED or you are committing fraud.
> 
> HoneyLady~



For cosmetics you do not need to register or be tested

For a drug, you must register. Your drug must be tested IF it is a new drug (ie there is no monograph for it existing) you also must meet strict GMP (good manufacturing practice) and open yourself for inspections.


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