# Newbie questions re: recipe



## Siobhan (Sep 11, 2016)

I found the Essential Depot Non-Animal Recipe through Essential Soaps website. 
I ran their recipe through the Soapee calculator, and the lye/water calculations are different between the original recipe and the soapee calculator.

I hope I can share this website, but the original is:

2oz Stearic Acid
8oz Pomace Olive Oil
13oz Coconut Oil
13oz Palm Oil
13.7oz Water
5.6oz Lye

Super fats

1oz Virgin Olive Oil
1oz Shea Butter
1/2oz Coconut Oil
1/2tsp Vitamin E
1tbsp Glycerin

The Soapee's calculation is attached. But a rundown:

6.24oz Lye
14.63oz Water

I am assuming the reason there is a difference in the lye and water amounts is because I couldn't plug in the tablespoon of glycerin and half teaspoon of vitamin E. Am I right? 

View attachment Soapee - Lye Calculator.pdf


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## doriettefarm (Sep 11, 2016)

I think the lye difference is because you picked fractionated coconut oil instead of 76 degree CO on line #2.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 11, 2016)

It depends on the SF of the recipe. Also, as for the recipe, I personally wouldn't recommend it.  I would do 45% Palm, 30% Olive, 20% Coconut and 5% Castor. Keep your first try simple. You don't need stearic , glycerine or Cit. E.  Stearic will make your soap move fast.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 11, 2016)

No. Vitamin E and glycerin do not saponify, so they do not consume any NaOH. You won't find them included in a soap recipe calculator for that reason. 

Soap contains very roughly 10% glycerin due to the saponification of your fats, so adding yet another tablespoon of glycerin to this recipe is not needed. The only time I add extra glycerin is when I make shave soap that has a very high % of stearic acid. Regular bath soap doesn't need it.

The difference is that your recipe from Soapee calls for 13 oz fractionated coconut oil and 0.5 oz regular coconut oil. The original recipe calls for 13 oz of regular coconut oil. FCO has a higher saponification value than regular CO, so your variation requires more NaOH to saponify the fats. And I think you included the separate superfat ingredients in the calculations (and correctly so!) and I get the feeling the original recipe did not. 

Is there a reason why you want to use FCO in this recipe? FCO will also make a harsher soap than regular CO due to its shorter chain fatty acids which are more stripping to the skin. I don't think it's really a good choice for using in soap -- better to use FCO in lotions, scrubs, and other B&B products instead. 

I will also add that I think a beginner recipe should not include an ingredient like stearic acid. It can be rather tricky to use and you're going to be challenged enough just making a classic soap without adding any tricky stuff to the party.

If you plan to use a cold process method, then there is no point in using a separate superfat at trace, because saponification has only just begun at that point. Add all of the fats right up front and make your soap. Less chance for error and it's going to come out the same in the end.

Looking at the extra superfat ingredients -- If you're using pomace olive oil as a main fat, I'm not sure virgin OO will bring anything more to the party. The shea is only around 1% of the total fats. That's probably not enough to make much of a difference to the quality of the soap. 

I suggest you KISS your first recipe (keep it simple, Soaper!) and not use so many different kinds of fats and not use stearic acid. That can surely come later, for sure, but not right now.


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## doriettefarm (Sep 11, 2016)

DeeAnna - I think the 13oz FCO in the Soapee calc was an oops instead of intentional.  Either way everything you & shunt said about stearic acid not being beginner-friendly is true.  I would ditch the stearic, glycerin & vitE completely and throw in some castor to make up the difference.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 11, 2016)

Might well be -- I hope Siobhan will set us straight!  

I think Shari's recipe would be a good one to use. If castor oil isn't available, I'd omit it and add that 5% to the olive oil. With or without the castor, that recipe will make a lovely bath bar.


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## Siobhan (Sep 11, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> It depends on the SF of the recipe. Also, as for the recipe, I personally wouldn't recommend it.  I would do 45% Palm, 30% Olive, 20% Coconut and 5% Castor. Keep your first try simple. You don't need stearic , glycerine or Cit. E.  Stearic will make your soap move fast.



Thank you for this simple recipe. It seems much less intimidating than the other. I was under the impression (from looking at Essential Soap) that I had to add oils in two stages. 

I'm going to look other soap-making tutorials to get a better idea of different styles.



doriettefarm said:


> DeeAnna - I think the 13oz FCO in the Soapee calc was an oops instead of intentional.  Either way everything you & shunt said about stearic acid not being beginner-friendly is true.  I would ditch the stearic, glycerin & vitE completely and throw in some castor to make up the difference.



I was under the impression that the fractionated coconut oil was the liquid kind (which I already have), so I was going with that. However, I see that I have to take back the Vitamin E and glycerin, so I'll pick up coconut oil from the soap-making store.



DeeAnna said:


> No. Vitamin E and glycerin do not saponify, so they do not consume any NaOH. You won't find them included in a soap recipe calculator for that reason.
> 
> Soap contains very roughly 10% glycerin due to the saponification of your fats, so adding yet another tablespoon of glycerin to this recipe is not needed. The only time I add extra glycerin is when I make shave soap that has a very high % of stearic acid. Regular bath soap doesn't need it.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the very thorough breakdown. I like the idea of KISS, so I'll be taking back the items I purchased and picking up the supplies for shunt's recipe. I'm glad I found this website. I'm already being saved from some seriously bad mistakes!


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## Arimara (Sep 11, 2016)

Siobhan said:


> Thank you for the very thorough breakdown. I like the idea of KISS, so I'll be taking back the items I purchased and picking up the supplies for shunt's recipe. I'm glad I found this website. I'm already being saved from some seriously bad mistakes!



Just don't make it too simple a recipe by using one or two oils. 3 or 4 oils in your soap will better help you learn the process with minimal wait time, as opposed to a 100% coconut oil soap or olive oil soap (the cure time for these soaps is roughly a 6 months to a year if you want a really nice soap). Shari's recipe is simple enough for you to learn to soap and at a later date, tweak to your own preferences or even swap out some or all of a particular oil.


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## Siobhan (Sep 11, 2016)

Okay, now I'm curious about fragrances. I purchased peppermint and lavender, as I thought these fragrances blended well. I was originally interested in lavender and chamomile but--holy camoly-I didn't know chamomile essential oil would be so expensive!

I was thinking, is there another way to incorporate chamomile into the soap? Adding chamomile tea leaves? Using chamomile tea as part of the water equation? Or, is that too far advanced for me right now?


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## newbie (Sep 11, 2016)

Chamomile leaves or petals will not add any fragrance, nor will chamomile tea. I would first make a simple soap, maybe even without any fragrance so you get a good feel for how the process works and then try with fragrances, teas and other embellishments. 

Most people will steep chamomile in an oil, often OO, and then strain and use the oil for a batch but again, it doesn't add fragrance. Some people feel it adds a nice component to the end soap and others feel that lye would rob those benefits and there is no significant difference between steeped and unsteeped oil. That is part of the fun- deciding for yourself if you like one or the other better.


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## doriettefarm (Sep 11, 2016)

Ahhh fragrances, now you're going down the rabbit hole!  I started with mainly EOs and think the lavender/peppermint combo sounds nice.  But stick with the basics for your first batches . . . don't try to get too fancy or I promise it will bite you in the behind.  

After you get a feel for the process, then you can start to dabble with alternative liquids like aloe juice, milks & teas.  That's probably what I would do with dried chamomile, either brew a tea and use that as the liquid or make an oil infusion as newbie suggested.  It definitely won't scent the soap but will be a learning experience.


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## LilyJo (Sep 12, 2016)

Just to let you know -we use chamomile in some of our soaps and our suppliers have told us that the crop has been affected by the weather and as such it is very expensive this year.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 12, 2016)

The idea that fats need to be added in two stages is a common one in many books and internet blogs, but the idea is not based on any kind of actual testing. The thinking is this: if one adds a portion of fats at "trace", the point at which the soap is beginning to thicken, then those fats won't be turned into soap -- they will become the "superfat" in the finished soap. 

Like other "common sense" ideas floating around in soaping, testing shows this idea doesn't work very well. 

What trace means is that saponification has formed just enough soap so the batter doesn't need to be blended anymore to stay emulsified -- the newly formed soap is enough to keep the mixture emulsified. Only perhaps 10% of the soap has formed at that time, so the remaining 90% of the fats have yet to be saponified. When you add the "superfat" at trace, these fats just become part of the "saponification party." The lye will react with them just as easily as it will react with the larger portion of the fats added first. 

There's no harm done in adding fats at trace if you like, but there's no real benefit to be had either. Speaking from experience, it's really easy to forget to add ingredients at the busy moment when the soap reaches trace. That's the time when most soapers are focused on doing any design work and pouring the soap into a mold.

***

If you use peppermint and lavender in your soap, figure out beforehand how much of each you want to use. Peppermint will completely overpower the lavender in a 50:50 mixture of the two, so most people use less peppermint than lavender.

***

In your climate, regular coconut oil might well be a liquid -- it normally is a soft paste or fully liquid at warm room temperatures. FCO is usually labeled as such, but regular CO is usually just labeled "coconut oil". If you're not sure, you can put the oil into the refrigerator for several hours. Regular CO will become solid, but FCO will still be liquid.


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## kchaystack (Sep 12, 2016)

You will also want to be careful with peppermint,  as it can cause a tingle on sensitive body parts and skin.   It's usage rate in soap is much lower than lavender.


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## penelopejane (Sep 12, 2016)

^^^
And, some people are allergic to/intolerant of peppermint in soap or food.


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## Siobhan (Sep 12, 2016)

Luckily for me, I use peppermint in the coconut I put in my hair. I actually like the tingling.


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## Susie (Sep 12, 2016)

Siobhan said:


> Luckily for me, I use peppermint in the coconut I put in my hair. I actually like the tingling.



If you like the tingling, try menthol crystals.  Very cooling sensation.  I wouldn't use either peppermint or menthol "down there" as it is quite uncomfortable.


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## tricia819 (Sep 13, 2016)

I JUST made a Peppermint/Lavender soap 2 weeks ago. I love the fragrance combo. I DID go easy on the Peppermint for the reasons stated above. That said, I do enjoy the combo and would encourage you to try it.


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## Siobhan (Sep 15, 2016)

For my second batch, I'd like to use gardenia and vanilla as the scent. I know that Gardenia Essential Oil is difficult to come by. However, I found this seller on eBay who is selling Gardenia Essential Oil (it's a blend of three oils allegedly). Before I order it, I just want to see if this listing raises red flags to veteran soapers. (I hope I can post the link, if not, I will delete it)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/151239738706?var=450280020907

Okay to buy? Or avoid it?


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## doriettefarm (Sep 15, 2016)

Siobhan said:


> For my second batch, I'd like to use gardenia and vanilla as the scent. I know that Gardenia Essential Oil is difficult to come by. However, I found this seller on eBay who is selling Gardenia Essential Oil (it's a blend of three oils allegedly). Before I order it, I just want to see if this listing raises red flags to veteran soapers. (I hope I can post the link, if not, I will delete it)
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/151239738706?var=450280020907
> 
> Okay to buy? Or avoid it?



It's not a bet I'd be willing to take given my experience with Gardenia FOs.  EO will be more expensive and not any more likely to behave in CP.  Every single Gardenia FO I've tried in CP either seized or riced like crazy so for the money I'd probably pass.


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## Siobhan (Sep 15, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> It's not a bet I'd be willing to take given my experience with Gardenia FOs.  EO will be more expensive and not any more likely to behave in CP.  Every single Gardenia FO I've tried in CP either seized or riced like crazy so for the money I'd probably pass.



I plan on doing HP. Do you think it'll go better with HP?


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## DeeAnna (Sep 15, 2016)

The seller is using a lot of "weasel words" about this fragrance. On one hand they say "...largely synthetically produced..." and on the other hand they say "...do not confuse this oil with a "Fragrance oil" which is a synthetic oil..." And I think the capper is this little gem: "...This oil has constituents added or deleted by manufacturer..."

Does this really sound like an essential oil to you? Doesn't to me.


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## Susie (Sep 15, 2016)

Buy your oils from reputable soaping suppliers.  It will pay you in the end.


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## Siobhan (Sep 15, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> The seller is using a lot of "weasel words" about this fragrance. On one hand they say "...largely synthetically produced..." and on the other hand they say "...do not confuse this oil with a "Fragrance oil" which is a synthetic oil..." And I think the capper is this little gem: "...This oil has constituents added or deleted by manufacturer..."
> 
> Does this really sound like an essential oil to you? Doesn't to me.



It certainly sent red flags to me, particularly since no other vendor was selling it. I figured I would ask to make sure I'm not missing some unknown extraction process. 

So here's the dilemma I face. Background, my goal is to make soap inspired by characters in my new book. One character is associated with lavender and peppermint. The other character is associated with gardenia and vanilla.

However, now I realize that even a gardenia perfume would be difficult to procure. So, I have to find another floral scent to associate with this character. I was thinking Jasmine--but wowzers! That's expensive too.


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## earlene (Sep 15, 2016)

Siobhan said:


> The other character is associated with gardenia and vanilla.
> 
> However, now I realize that even a gardenia perfume would be difficult to procure. So, I have to find another floral scent to associate with this character. I was thinking Jasmine--but wowzers! That's expensive too.



Do I understand you to say you may change the floral scent in your book?  If so, choose one that is easier to come by.  Lily of the Valley FO by Nature's Garden is not overly expensive and a lovely scent.  I don't know how it would pair with vanilla, but I have used and enjoyed it on its own.  That is if you are open to using FOs.

If  it is only EOs you want to use and you want to evaluate an EO in person, might I suggest you go into a brick and mortar store and do some sniff testing to get an idea of which EOs might be of interest.  One place where this works very well is The Vitamin Shoppe, where you can do sniff tests and they keep fresh coffee beans to sniff between sniffing scents to 'clear the nasal palette'.  There may be other stores near where you live that provide a similar sniff-testing opportunity.  It just the only one near where I live where I have found I can do that.  I think some Whole Foods Stores also let you sniff, but I don't recall ever seeing the coffee beans to clear the nasal palette.  But you could carry a small container of coffee beans with you.

I suggest this because if you find something you like, you would actually get an idea of cost.  It may actually cost more at one of these stores than you if you order from Nature's Garden or Bramble Berry, etc.  But you would be able to see the trend of higher and lower costs of what they have in stock and get a better idea if something goes well with vanilla, since vanilla seems to be part of what you want as well.  Although I can't imagine a floral scent that would not go well with vanilla.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 16, 2016)

What vanilla are you looking to use? Many aren't what they are advertised to be


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## DeeAnna (Sep 16, 2016)

If you don't want a dark soap, a vanilla fragrance is not a good choice -- it discolors to varying shades of brown. Also you'll have to use vanilla absolute if you want to stick to a "natural" fragrance. There's no vanilla essential oil, and vanilla extract doesn't work well in soap.

I get the feeling you are wanting to use only essential oils or other "natural" scents in these soaps. As you are finding, essential oils for some exotic fragrances are horribly expensive, come from endangered species (sandalwood), don't really smell like the fragrance from the actual living flower, or simply don't exist. Many soapers who start out this way eventually convert to using fragrance oils to get the range of scents they want at a reasonable price.


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## Siobhan (Sep 16, 2016)

earlene said:


> Do I understand you to say you may change the floral scent in your book?  If so, choose one that is easier to come by.  Lily of the Valley FO by Nature's Garden is not overly expensive and a lovely scent.  I don't know how it would pair with vanilla, but I have used and enjoyed it on its own.  That is if you are open to using FOs.
> 
> If  it is only EOs you want to use and you want to evaluate an EO in person, might I suggest you go into a brick and mortar store and do some sniff testing to get an idea of which EOs might be of interest.  One place where this works very well is The Vitamin Shoppe, where you can do sniff tests and they keep fresh coffee beans to sniff between sniffing scents to 'clear the nasal palette'.  There may be other stores near where you live that provide a similar sniff-testing opportunity.  It just the only one near where I live where I have found I can do that.  I think some Whole Foods Stores also let you sniff, but I don't recall ever seeing the coffee beans to clear the nasal palette.  But you could carry a small container of coffee beans with you.
> 
> I suggest this because if you find something you like, you would actually get an idea of cost.  It may actually cost more at one of these stores than you if you order from Nature's Garden or Bramble Berry, etc.  But you would be able to see the trend of higher and lower costs of what they have in stock and get a better idea if something goes well with vanilla, since vanilla seems to be part of what you want as well.  Although I can't imagine a floral scent that would not go well with vanilla.



Yes. I am going to change the scent of my character. Back story: I am doing a reader/author event in October. My goal is to make soaps inspired by the two main characters. One is a shy, calming type (peppermint/lavender) and the other is a spunky, sultry flirt (gardenia/vanilla). These will be free soaps, primarily to serve as scents to complement the reading experience. Furthermore, since the scent seems to be hard to find, I'm going to make a guess that it's also hard to find in a perfume (at least in 1915).



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> What vanilla are you looking to use? Many aren't what they are advertised to be



I haven't purchased the vanilla, yet. I will be going to a few natural food stores that sell essential oils and spices. I'll find what is available.



DeeAnna said:


> If you don't want a dark soap, a vanilla fragrance is not a good choice -- it discolors to varying shades of brown. Also you'll have to use vanilla absolute if you want to stick to a "natural" fragrance. There's no vanilla essential oil, and vanilla extract doesn't work well in soap.
> 
> I get the feeling you are wanting to use only essential oils or other "natural" scents in these soaps. As you are finding, essential oils for some exotic fragrances are horribly expensive, come from endangered species (sandalwood), don't really smell like the fragrance from the actual living flower, or simply don't exist. Many soapers who start out this way eventually convert to using fragrance oils to get the range of scents they want at a reasonable price.



Yes. For these batches, I am hoping to stick with natural scents. In the future, I plan on playing with fragrances, but since these first batches are part of a marketing plan, I'd like to keep it natural.


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## mx5inpenn (Sep 16, 2016)

Siobhan said:


> Yes. For these batches, I am hoping to stick with natural scents. In the future, I plan on playing with fragrances, but since these first batches are part of a marketing plan, I'd like to keep it natural.



I started out not wanting to use anything "unnatural" as well, but really wanted vanilla scented soap. Since I couldn't get that without using fragrance oils, when I decided to try them, a vanilla was the first one I used.  If you change your mind, I highly recommend Nature's Garden Vanilla Bean.


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## SunWolf (Sep 17, 2016)

Siobhan said:


> <snip> Back story: I am doing a reader/author event in October. <snip>.



You are just about out of time for an October event, you need 4 to 6 weeks for your soap to cure before being ready.


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## Siobhan (Sep 17, 2016)

mx6inpenn said:


> I started out not wanting to use anything "unnatural" as well, but really wanted vanilla scented soap. Since I couldn't get that without using fragrance oils, when I decided to try them, a vanilla was the first one I used.  If you change your mind, I highly recommend Nature's Garden Vanilla Bean.



I drove up to Zenith Supplies in Seattle. They sell soap, perfume, and lotion making supplies. They have a generous supply of fragrance and essential oils. And, they had a jar of coffee grounds!

I smelled the jasmine absolute, rose absolute, and other essential oils. I then smelled rose, lilac, gardenia, and jasmine fragrance oils. To my surprise, I really liked the gardenia scent! So I purchased it. I figured that when I become more proficient with soap-making, then I'll consider sinking funds into these rare essential oils. Since I will be giving these soap bars away during the reader event, I think I better stick with what I can get my hands on now.

I also purchased cinnamon (cassia) and clove essential oils which I hope to blend with vanilla. I haven't purchased the vanilla yet. I didn't like the vanilla at the store, but there is a natural market in my town and I'll get the vanilla there.



SunWolf said:


> You are just about out of time for an October event, you need 4 to 6 weeks for your soap to cure before being ready.



I am making hot process soap. I know there are different camps on needing to cure HP soap, but my goal is to make my batches next Saturday. That will still give me about three weeks to cure the soap.


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## Susie (Sep 17, 2016)

HP needs just as much time, if not more, to cure as CP.  You may want to look into some melt and pour bases.  You can scent and color, and these will be good to go in 3 weeks.


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## Siobhan (Sep 18, 2016)

These may be my last questions until after I make my first batch.

1. Coloring or no coloring?

2. I bought more coconut oil but it doesn't say if 76 or 96 degrees. I am assuming I will need to find out (although it is probably 60ish my home and it looks really soft). How can I?


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## artemis (Sep 18, 2016)

Siobhan said:


> These may be my last questions until after I make my first batch.
> 
> 1. Coloring or no coloring?



My vote for a first batch would be no color, no fragrance, and a small batch. Just get used to the process. Then, you can add a new facet with the next batch.


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## Arimara (Sep 18, 2016)

Siobhan said:


> These may be my last questions until after I make my first batch.
> 
> 1. Coloring or no coloring? You don't really need it at this stage. If you want a soap uniformed in color, you generally need between .5 to 2 tsps of a colrant, depending on the colorant. But that can go into a whole other topic in and of itself. Swirls and the like is more advanced and you're already considering using a fragrance, which may or may not complicate things. I suggest you make your HP batch unscented first so that you learn the process. After you get a feel, at the fragrance.
> 
> 2. I bought more coconut oil but it doesn't say if 76 or 96 degrees. I am assuming I will need to find out (although it is probably 60ish my home and it looks really soft). How can I? You would have to heat the oil up and constantly check it's temperature. Generally though, it makes little difference unless you but liquid (fractionated) coconut oil soap. Generally, most brands sell 76 coconut oil.



Azul/ blue.


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## cmzaha (Sep 18, 2016)

earlene said:


> Do I understand you to say you may change the floral scent in your book?  If so, choose one that is easier to come by.  Lily of the Valley FO by Nature's Garden is not overly expensive and a lovely scent.  I don't know how it would pair with vanilla, but I have used and enjoyed it on its own.  That is if you are open to using FOs.
> 
> If  it is only EOs you want to use and you want to evaluate an EO in person, might I suggest you go into a brick and mortar store and do some sniff testing to get an idea of which EOs might be of interest.  One place where this works very well is The Vitamin Shoppe, where you can do sniff tests and they keep fresh coffee beans to sniff between sniffing scents to 'clear the nasal palette'.  There may be other stores near where you live that provide a similar sniff-testing opportunity.  It just the only one near where I live where I have found I can do that.  I think some Whole Foods Stores also let you sniff, but I don't recall ever seeing the coffee beans to clear the nasal palette.  But you could carry a small container of coffee beans with you.
> 
> I suggest this because if you find something you like, you would actually get an idea of cost.  It may actually cost more at one of these stores than you if you order from Nature's Garden or Bramble Berry, etc.  But you would be able to see the trend of higher and lower costs of what they have in stock and get a better idea if something goes well with vanilla, since vanilla seems to be part of what you want as well.  Although I can't imagine a floral scent that would not go well with vanilla.


Lily of the Valley by NG is miserable to work with in my experience. It overheats severely and accelerates, as most florals. I actually had it overheat after being in the freezer overnight, and de-molded the next day. Good thing I had it in a crate to hold the mess. It also did not hold scent worth a darn at 6%. The next time I made it I put it in the freezer for 24 hrs and 3 days in the fridge before un-molding. It is a very naughty fo...

Keep in mind some EO's are high allergens for some whereas they can use synthetic fragrances and not all fragrances are all synthetic. My DB which I have made is almost all oils


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## DeeAnna (Sep 18, 2016)

If the coconut oil doesn't say what type it is, it is probably coconut oil 76 deg -- that kind of CO is usually not labeled anything special. This is especially true if you bought it at a grocery store or restaurant supply. If you really want to know for sure and it doesn't say on the label, it would be best to ask the supplier.

Regardless, CO 76 and CO 92 have the same saponification value so it doesn't matter which one you use as far as the calculations for the NaOH needed.


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## dixiedragon (Sep 18, 2016)

Consider making a solid perfume. Check out Camden Grey for ingredients. You could make very very small amounts, such as a slim lip balm tube which holds .07 ounces. 

Simple recipe:
1/8 ounce Beeswax or Floral Wax
1/2 ounce Jojoba
7 drops Essential Oil

This recipe would make about 9 slim lip balm tubes. This has a lot of advantages:
You can use natural fragrances MUCH more cheaply. There won't be a lye monster to gobble them up. Floral waxes are really lovely and MUCH cheaper than EOs.

You won't need to worry about the lye monster morphing your gardenia FO. I can't find a US seller that offers gardenia absolute, so it may not exist.


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## Margo (Oct 18, 2016)

I can't believe all the non-scientific opinions people give on the internet.  Just go to www.thesage.com and use their calculator


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## shunt2011 (Oct 18, 2016)

Margo said:


> I can't believe all the non-scientific opinions people give on the internet.  Just go to www.thesage.com and use their calculator




What are you talking about?  Nobody was asking for anything that needs a calculator.  You've provided absolutely nothing to this conversation that is helpful. I don't get it.


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## Kamahido (Oct 18, 2016)

I am equally confused...


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## Dahila (Oct 18, 2016)

Ladies world is full of miserable people.  People who behave like that , do have problem in their life.  The easiest way to run from them is to distract oneself and attack others.  I am old and had seen it so many times............


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2016)

Dahila said:


> Ladies world is full of miserable.  People who behave like that , do have problem in their life.  The easiest way to run from them is to distract oneself and attack others.  I am old and had seen it so many times............



I think this is a bit out of line.  After all, we all make mistakes, and she could have misunderstood what was being discussed.  And no, I don't know who she is, either, despite her longevity on the forum.


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## cmzaha (Oct 19, 2016)

Susie said:


> I think this is a bit out of line until the person has a chance to reply for herself.  After all, we all make mistakes, and she could have misunderstood what was being discussed.  And no, I don't know who she is, either, despite her longevity on the forum.


She has stated zap testing is dangerous and non-scientific http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30690&page=10


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2016)

After seeing more of her recent posts, she seems to be just throwing her opinions out there with no scientific backing or proof of her claims (which are absolutely impossible in some cases!).


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## dixiedragon (Oct 19, 2016)

They are not interested in sharing info and she's not interested in learning because they think we're all stupid. I think they just enjoys being rude.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 19, 2016)

I think SMF is a good place to enjoy respectful conversation and to learn. Sometimes we all get frustrated and vent a little, and that's to be understood. I've done it, and most everyone else has done it at times. But I have less patience with people who often show a sarcastic or holier-than-thou attitude. I sometimes feel these posters may be lonely or troubled, and I try to be mindful of that. But trying to empathize with others is not the same as tolerating poor behavior or allowing others to put me and other people down. These folks end up on my "ignore" list real fast.


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## lsg (Oct 19, 2016)

I don't think this forum is the place for personal comments about another member, either.  I think that members of this forum are above that sort of thing.  Count to ten or even 100 before replying.   I am editing the negative commentary and locking this thread.


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