# Why the hostility from cold and hot process soapers? A brief encounter



## Equestrian

I was talking with a person about the soaps I make. Yes it is melt and pour, but I make sure to use detergent free high quality bases. Honestly my skin, and my friends skin love the stuff more then cold and hot processed I have bought in the past, but that is neither here nor there.  The person was very loudly telling everyone at the holiday party that MP is crap and not real soap. I have looked up guidelines for soap and SFIC and Brambleberry premium bases fall under the term soap. 

So why the hate about it fromthe other person? I have also seen lots of posts on the internet from CO and HP saying that MP is no better for you then store bought.


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## Obsidian

I've got to admit, I'm kind of a CP snob too. Until recently, my only experience with M & P was a cheap brand and it was terrible. Yesterday I bought a nice detergent free bar (base from WSP) and while its pretty nice, it leaves me feeling much like store bought soap. I do have to wonder what the chemicals, even in detergant free are doing to my skin.

I also have a hard time with M & P being labeled handmade. It like making a boxed cake and calling it made from scratch. No doubt that M & P take a certain skill set. I could never make the pretty designs I see and am so envious of not to mention the time involved. 
I don't necessarily feel one is better then the other.

As far as people who are vocal about it at shows, they are either jealous, ignorant or just plain nasty and trying to drive business away from you. I would never by from any vender who was bad mouthing another vendor like that. Its not only bad business but shows a lack of character.
The craft show I went too had 4 soaps stands and the M & P gals had the nicest display and were the most knowledgeable about their product. Since they are local, I plan to buy more soap from them.


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## Cherry Pit Soap Works

*I as well am  "cp snob".*

Can't help it. Ive used it all and I always come back to CP soap. I don't think melt and pour is "crap". But I don't think it's near the quality of handmade, from scratch soap. But I say to each their own, and if you love it, then who cares what that person says. It's all about enjoying the making!


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## Soap Culture

*Cold shoulder*

I am new to the whole craft fair circuit and I met the same disdain at the first show I did.  I was totally taken aback. However, at the second show I met several CP soap makers and they were wonderful. I hope your next encounter goes better.


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## kikajess

A few years ago, I went through a Melt & Pour phase. I really enjoyed it. The ease of M&P made soap making incredibly fun and fearless. But actually using the M&P soaps I made was never as wonderful as I wanted it to be compared to CP or HP soaps I used. I got my bases from BB, so I know they were good, but not good enough for me. My biggest complaint is the M&P soaps I made melted too quickly in the shower. They felt soft and slimy; not something I ever looked forward to. 

On the other hand, I have made CP soaps that are very drying to me, or smell horrible, or have terrible textures. I am new at CP making, but every batch is a learning experience for me, and I am love, love, loving being in complete control of every ingredient I use. I have every confidence in myself that I will make a conditioning, long-lasting bar of soap that I look forward to using in every shower.

My preference is a personal one. However, I would not bad-mouth M & P soaps because I know first hand the passion and creativity that can go into M&P soaps. I'm sorry you had to go through such a negative experience. The type of person who badmouths other people's efforts are people who don't have anything to offer themselves. Keep at it. Haters gonna hate!


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## jcatblum

I think some M&P soaps look amazing. For me the issue is customers not being educated in varieties of soap. They think there is soap made with lye & soap made with lard & soap made with goats milk. Also there is a bunch of bad M&P. A specialty vendor that grows lavender & uses the extract in M&P. Supporting the locals, I pay $5 for a bar, unwrap it & my eyes burn from the overuse of the EO then 2 wks later the dry bar of soap is sweating. 
In all fairness same thing can happen with any type of soap vendor.


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## hellogorgeous

I love the creativity that goes into mp soap. Some are so pretty and there's tons you can do with it that you can't with cp. BUT my skin hates it. I've tried numerous bases over the years and haven't really liked any of them. I totally agree with the comment about box cake mix vs from scratch. There's an obvious difference and ill always be a from scratch girl. I can formulate my cp soap how I wish and my skin is so thankful.  still, they should not have been so mouthy and vocal about it. Some ppl have no filters.


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## lsg

I have recently started making my own M&P base, experimenting with cucumber and avocado oils and shea butter. It is fun and fairly easy. Once I discovered how creative one could be with M&P soaps, I was hooked. I still make CP soap, but have branched out using M&P also. Don't let the negative attitude of others bother you, just be proud of your product.:wink:


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## ourwolfden

I would probably never buy melt and pour unless it was a fabulous piece I wanted for decoration or for inspiration.  That being said I love the melt and pour I make.  I mostly use BB bulk goat’s milk or BB Shea Butter and I love the way it makes my skin, hair, and face feel.  So far I have only been able to try 2 bars of CP I have made and while I’m in love with one the other I like more as a hand soap, not a full body soap.  I would be leery of selling m&p just because so many people (like my Grandma I have gifted bars to) will unwrap them and just let them sit on the counter to me that is just asking for the soap to get covered in glycerin dew drops and then not understand what happened.  

Just my 2 cents.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'd like to say at the outset that I love what people do with M&P, it blows my mind in many cases with how creative it all is.

That said, unless you're making your own base (and from here on, M&P refers to people who do not make their own bases) you are not actually making soap - you're melting and pouring soap.  The soap is already made, you're adding  FOs, EOs, colours and making something amazing - but you're not making soap.  

Enhancing soap, yes.  Making soap, no.  

You can argue that without the enhancements it's not actually soap - but then people who make plain soap will beg to differ, I'm sure.

I think that is why a lot of CP/HPers can get annoyed - "Homemade Soap" on a stand for M&P, with things that look stunning and impossible with CP/HP bringing in all the customers who prefer to get something that looks a lot better, costs the same but is still "homemade soap" could bring the CP/HP sellers to the point of standing there exasperated yelling out "But it's NOT HOMEMADE SOAP!" until the men in white coats come and take them away.

If I buy a plain sponge cake and pour chocolate over it, have I got a homemade cake?

To conclude, I understand the issues and would most likely feel frustrated seeing an M&P "homemade soap" stand taking customers that are buying something that isn't what they expect it to be.  But if it's properly marked and people are buying it because of the wonderful work that is done with it and not because it's "homemade", I love to admire the mind-blowing ideas that M&Pers turn in to scented reality.


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## TVivian

If I were a vendor at a craft show or farmers market, I would be annoyed if another booth was selling M&P for the same price as I was selling CP or HP soap. Especially since most consumers really don't know the difference. I guess I would feel compelled to "educate" the masses hahaha.. .. Which might seem like bad mouthing.. (Insert nervous chuckle)


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## dixiedragon

I agree with the posters who say it's not handmade soap. It's hand-poured soap, it's hand-decorated soap, but it's not handmade. It was made in a factory.


Another issue for me is that some MPers (not all, not even many, but some) really don't understand soap at all, so they are selling soap and telling people that their soap doesn't have lye, and that those other soaps do, and lye is bad.

I feel like comparing MP to CP and OP should be like comparing apples to oranges. But the average customer can't tell the difference, so they are comparing the appearence of MP to the appearance of CP, but they aren't able to compare effectiveness, etc.


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## gurdeep

I make mp soap and would like to see cp's do the same design work all it comes down to is marketing everything has it's place and who is to say no is not soap or handmade it does not make it's self


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Gurdeep, please see my post - the soap is not handmade.  It might not make itself, but unless you're combining a lye with oils then it isn't being made by you, either.  The soap is bought, melted and turned in to stuff.  Awesome stuff, really amazing stuff that is great and totally has a place.  

CP and HP can't do the same sorts of things as M&P, that is very clear.  But CP/HP is homemade soap.

As I said, I think that's where the problem comes in when the reasoning is - people who produce M&P products make them, at home.  It's soap.  So therefore it's homemade soap.  But the soap was not made by the person selling the product.

I don't know what word would be best for marketing, instead of "homemade".  "Hand Crafted Designs" might be a more accurate term, or something else that makes it clear that the base was not home made.  But then it's harder to market, makes it confusing for the customers, which would hamper sales.

As I said, I understand the frustration on both sides, but I'm not looking for a Sharks/Jets Montagues/Capulets sort of thing here.


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## gurdeep

You are right to a degree I use the handcrafted because I made it and crafted the design same as someone making cookies from a ready mix but let's not fight over wording but have fun


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## cmzaha

We do both and I sell mp as well as cp and sometimes even better. A good quality mp base makes a huge difference. Our supplier happens to make a fantastic mild sls free mp base that we even allow my 5 yr old grandbaby to use, we are very picky what she uses, and our supplier actually customized the base to our specs. She goes through a minimum of a pallet of mp a year and that is a lot of mp! My daughter is epileptic and will not risk working with lye, besides she does beautiful mp work and I do the cp. She is epileptic and will not risk working with lye. Most customers refer to mp as glycerin and I feel no need to correct. My customers are aware we do not make the base, but it is made for us. When selling at markets to make money believe me it is best to cover all areas, since selling cp only will not cut it at weekly farmer markets and I have customers that only want mp. Believe it or not some people cannot use cp soap they need mild surfacant soaps, I being one of those people unless it is a salt bar.
We also do not call our mp homemade soap, I explain it is a very mild base made for us


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## cmzaha

lsg said:


> I have recently started making my own M&P base, experimenting with cucumber and avocado oils and shea butter. It is fun and fairly easy. Once I discovered how creative one could be with M&P soaps, I was hooked. I still make CP soap, but have branched out using M&P also. Don't let the negative attitude of others bother you, just be proud of your product.:wink:


 
This is on my "bucket list" of things to do this year. My daughter makes a product that uses mp base and only has to melt once, so we are going to work on making our own.


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## judymoody

This is a very interesting discussion.

I know a CP soap maker who can't use her own product because her skin doesn't tolerate the relatively higher pH.  So she has fomulated her own detergent-based bars based on mild surfactants and they work great for her.

Just as not all M&P bases are created equal, the same can be said of CP.  I neither make nor buy M&P.  But I have bought or gotten CP bars in swaps that really dry out and/or irritate my skin or are so heavily scented that they made me feel ill.  It took a year or two for me to formulate a soap that is both cleansing enough for my husband, not too drying for me, and is mild enough for my eczema-prone teenage daughter.

I think there are two aspects to this debate.  The first is the perception that lye-based CP soap is more "natural" and M&P is full of nasty chemicals.  Again, bases vary tremendously and not all chemicals are evil or harmful.  For example, I use synthetic surfactacts to make shampoo bars because CP soap does not play nicely with my hair.  That doesn't mean that I reach first for the sodium laurel sulfate.

The second is the distinction that Efficacious Gentleman and others have made that the crafting process IS different.  M&P is not "making" soap from raw materials.  Yet the crafting process can be as intricate or time consuming, if not more, as making CP soap from lye, water, and oils.  It depends what aspect of the process you emphasize.  While I strive to make pretty CP soap it is not nearly as elaborate as the multi-layered and embedded M&P creations I see at craft fairs.  As long as the creative process and ingredients are represented honestly, I don't see a problem with calling it hand "crafted."

In the end, bashing somebody else's product is tacky and mean-spirited.  There is room for both processes as well as mutual respect for each.  It is possible to elevate your own process without putting down others.  

Just my 2 cents.


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## gurdeep

Well done Judy moodu


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## Scentapy

I am not weighing in... just sharing a story to point out the ignorance of people:

I had a guy go into one of the stores where my soap is sold and he was examining them all and asking questions.  The store owner explained that I make my soap with either EO's or FO's and some are CP and some are HP.  

Ignorant comment # 1was "Hot process is NOT handmade soap.  I used to be a very successful soapmaker and I can tell you that hot process means all she did was bought a base and melted it."  

Ignorant comment #2:  "You can't make soap with Coconut Milk, it will curdle".  :roll::roll::roll:

NO JOKE people, this is what the "successful soapmaker" told the store owner about my soap.  Then I had to explain that he had no idea what he was talking about.


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## EvilTOJ

I've seen the same kind of hate in other hobbies too. I brew beer, and some people who make beer from all grain can get pretty snobby about people who buy malt syrup and make beer that way. To me, it doesn't matter your process as long as you (and your customers) like it. 

I'm also a pretty huge CP snob


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## NurseEmily

I'm a very new soaper but I also feel I couldn't SELL an M&P soap where I did not make the base myself.  I know people do it and power to them.   Freedom is a beautiful thing.  

The supplier I use almost endorses selling soaps made with their base but, to me, it's just 'not the same' as weighing, measuring, cooking, etc all the ingredients myself.  And the base I bought (to make a special requested fragrance flavor for my mom) is absolutely made with lye. 

I loved the box cake analogy.


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## Yooper

EvilTOJ said:


> I've seen the same kind of hate in other hobbies too. I brew beer, and some people who make beer from all grain can get pretty snobby about people who buy malt syrup and make beer that way. To me, it doesn't matter your process as long as you (and your customers) like it.
> 
> I'm also a pretty huge CP snob



I don't hate in the other hobby!  I'm pretty nice about extract brewing.  :smile:

But I do not buy into M&P being "homemade" or "handmade".  It's not.  It's decorated, melted, etc at home, perhaps, but it isn't homemade soap.  It's purchased base, with other stuff added to it.  It may be incredibly decorative, and beautifully done- but it isn't homemade soap. 

It's not hostility, as I don't care what people buy/sell/make, and I don't sell soap.  I do have an issue with misleading and/or misrepresenting it, though.


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## pamielynn

I'll jump in with my opinion. I've worked very hard to make the soap that I do and when I stand next to an MPer who has simply poured a base into a log mold and calls it "natural" and "organic" and "not made with lye", I about blow my top. At my FM, an MPer came in and was asking me all about my soap. One, she was simply AMAZED that I knew how to infuse botanicals (she also did this and put it in her base) and two gave me this snotty look when she told me how she doesn't HAVE to cure HER soaps. Well, no kidding. Then she freaked when I asked her how she got her organic certification. Yeah - she doesn't have one, of course; but still sells her soaps as organic.

While this is not every MPer, I have seen more than a few do the exact same thing; I've even come across some that leave out those tell-tale ingredients so that their soap appears handmade. When MPers make those stunningly gorgeous soaps - that takes a skill that I do not possess and those soaps impress me to no end; some are more than amazing. But cop to the fact that you did not make that soap from scratch. That's all we ask.


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## squyars

Here is my two cents.... I absolutely love the look of melt and pour, but two problems I have.... the ones I have used dried my skin out, and the ones I really like to look at, well, I just don't want to use them, they are too beautiful.

I also think that MP may been seen as more of a teen girl craft.  It was definitely something I did as a teen; along with candle making kits, paint by number and Shrinky Dinks.


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## seven

Just because one did some botanical infusions and add them to their mp doesnt mean its natural, let alone organic. I would be pissed at that too. 
Like some had said, its mainly the misleading words that bothers me. And that goes.both ways, as i've seen cp soapers being adamant with 'i only create au naturel soaps', they mislabeled their ingredients (eg: no such thing as X eo, but they listed it anyway). And sadly, unsuspecting buyers dove in head first, and believed everything that was written.
That said, i do both cp/hp and mp, and i make my own base coz this way i know exactly what was put to the base and such. And although it fits into the category of handmade/homemade, i never list them that way. I simply call them glycerin soaps, coz over here thats what ppl are more familiar to. I also said that the base i'm using is made on my own and contains no sls/sles.


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## Lin

Ditto what most have said, I'm probably considered a CP snob but my issue is misleading/incorrect words. MP soaps can be GORGEOUS, and definitely techniques and abilities required that I don't have. But I think when you represent your product as something it isn't (homemade, lye free) then you've just ruined all your credibility for the truth and skill that IS in your product. Know your product, tell the truth, and get the kudos your deserve.


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## llineb

I love my CP soap but need to make M&P to unleash the artistic side in me...lol! Seriously, I love the color and scent of M&P soap!  It appeals to a different crowd of buyers.  It truly is "melt and mold."  I love bright colors, embeds and lots of scent...you can't always accomplish this with CP.  Hang in there...you will get your M&P groupies!  Use a quality base and follow the guidelines for your scents and you will have a quality product!


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## gurdeep

Lin when you make a cookes do you get all the stuff and make from scratch or use a pre made dough and then say I made them. Same as m&p it is and I use the word hand crafted not home made. If lush use words like fresh and they also make m&p which they market as handmade please end this topic now as it will just go back AMD forth


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## MoonBath

dixiedragon said:


> Another issue for me is that some MPers (not all, not even many, but some) really don't understand soap at all, so they are selling soap and telling people that their soap doesn't have lye, and that those other soaps do, and lye is bad.



:shock: :-x :evil:


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## FGOriold

I love to do both - there are things I can do with melt and pour (create scenes with embedded soap elements, layer unique artwork using water soluble paper - the soap in my avi is melt and pour) to make really unique and artistic designs that one just cannot do with cold process.  There is room for both depending on what one wants for their end product.  Now, misrepresenting your product as "natural", "organic", "vegan" etc. is a whole different issue and is usually due to lack of knowledge about what one is creating/selling.


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## Lin

gurdeep said:


> Lin when you make a cookes do you get all the stuff and make from scratch or use a pre made dough and then say I made them. Same as m&p it is and I use the word hand crafted not home made. If lush use words like fresh and they also make m&p which they market as handmade please end this topic now as it will just go back AMD forth


When I make cookies I make them from scratch, but I have no idea what that has to do with advocating for people to represent their products truthfully to get the praise they deserve for what they did. 

I have a great pumpkin chocolate chip cookie recipe if anyone is interested. Super easy too.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I think it's referencing the fact that some people would make cookies from a mix and then call them home made and liking that to people calling M&P home made.

It's an anology that works, to an extent.  But the cookie mix still has a transistion from cookie mix to being cookies, including additional ingredients (at the very least water) and then cooking.  

M&P requires nothing else - it is finished soap.  So it's more similar to buying a plain sponge cake (not a mix, an actual cooked cake) and then decorating it.  But you started with a cake.

In all honesty, I would not class either the cookies or cake as homemade, though.


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## FGOriold

Melt and Pour may not "Require" anything else - but there are many, many things you can do with melt and pour that require not only additional ingredients but lots of skill and technique.  Some of my melt and pour soaps take much longer to make than the cold process ones do.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

FGOriold said:


> Melt and Pour may not "Require" anything else - but there are many, many things you can do with melt and pour that require not only additional ingredients but lots of skill and technique. Some of my melt and pour soaps take much longer to make than the cold process ones do.


 
No arguement there, as I stated in my original post in this thread.  I made it clear there that I think the things done with M&P are mind blowingly good.  I stand by that.

But it certainly should not be marketed as handmade soap, on which I think we both agree.


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## Lin

EG, I get the analogy of making boxed cookies and calling it homemade vs making from scratch, but if you read my post that he replied to it doesn't make any sense. I said people should represent their product truthfully, so why ask me if I represent myself truthfully and reiterate an analogy thats been given many times in the thread already and that I never disagreed with. (and I agree your analogy is closer to what actually happens in m&p soap. Someone can purchase a baked angel food cake, cover it in fondant, hand ice a fancy design on the side, hand shape fondant figures, and sell the cake. Its a work of art and the individual deserves praise for the work they did, but if they were to lie about having baked the angel food cake itself it makes the person untrustworthy and takes away from what they actually DID accomplish and should be proud of.)


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## FGOriold

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> No arguement there, as I stated in my original post in this thread.  I made it clear there that I think the things done with M&P are mind blowingly good.  I stand by that.
> 
> But it certainly should not be marketed as handmade soap, on which I think we both agree.



----------------

I don't know about that - the actual soap component portion may not be handmade but in my opinion, for many of these creations the final product is.


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## seven

FGOriold said:


> ----------------
> 
> I don't know about that - the actual soap component portion may not be handmade but in my opinion, for many of these creations the final product is.



this thread is getting more interesting.

i do agree with FGOriold, and i get why some MPers wanna label their creations as handmade.

catch 22

my take, i dont think i mind the handmade label, but i do wanna see the rest of the words a seller is using to describe her/his products.


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## shunt2011

I personally don't care what others call their soap.  If they call it handmade, natural etc....everything is so overused already.  I present my products as handcrafted artisan soap, bath and body.  No all natural, no made with love not pretense.  I make and sell a great product.  There is room for everyone.  However, I do dislke when those who make MP and present it like it's CP without informing the customers what it is.  That's just my personal take.  MP has many avenues that it can go down unlike CP. Go with and do what makes you happy and if your customer are happy all the better.  Just be honest about what you do.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

As I said in the original post, it *IS *a hand made product, and it *IS *soap. But (and this is a but so big it's like Santa and J-Lo had a love child) it *cannot *be called homemade/handmade soap - the soap part was bought. 

The big issue would be making it clear and concise, which is why I understand the reasons why a lot of M&Pers use the term "homemade soap" - it's just easier. "home enchanced soap" would just sound very odd and would take some explaining.

Artisan soaps might be the best option. "Produced by hand using a quality soap base" for example. But doesn't have the marketing ring that people want to pull in the punters.

-------------

edit, it really doesn't matter to me at the moment, as I don't sell my soap.  But I'm a pedant, as you might well be able to tell.


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## Derpina Bubbles

Reading this it's clear the 2 sides will never agree. I personally do both M & P and CP and I constantly find myself b*$%#ing behind my own back. It's terrible.


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## girlishcharm2004

"Why the hate?"  Just because someone's opinion of melt and pour is the opposite to yours doesn't mean they're hating.  I have to agree, like others here have said, I don't really like it either.  Sorry.


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## honeysuds

It sucks that people can be so mean spirited. I'm about to put myself out there as the black sheep but that's ok :crazy: 

I have been making CP soaps for almost 10 years now, its my first love. Tried hot process once (totally accidental) and maybe because I didn't plan for it to happen that way I wrote it off. One day I'll try again. I've made some soaps that were definitely not for my skin type but everyone seemed to love them regardless (better than store bought for sure!). 

This year after seeing hundreds of beautiful M&P soaps, I jumped in and bought some detergent free bases from WSP. Much to my surprise, I loved them! I could use less FO, I could use expensive EO that are too cost prohibitive to use in CP and reap the benefits of them as well as additives like clays or small amounts of nourishing skin oils. Its ready to use as soon as it hardens, and it leaves my skin soft. I haven't even gotten into all the decorative aspects yet but as far as I'm concerned that's icing on the cake!

No its not handmade, definitely handcrafted, but still they both have their plus and minuses, they both still take time, creativity, and dedication, and I proudly have both in my soap dish.


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## Hazel

Equestrian said:


> The person was very loudly telling everyone at the holiday party that MP is crap and not real soap.



Some people will do anything for attention. I'm sorry this happened to you. Did this person give specifics about why she/he considered MP crap or just mainly spouting nonsense? If this person could give specifics, you could answer them and explain why not all MP is crap. But if it was just nonsense, then it probably was based on emotions and as such, you would not not be able to reason with the person and it's better just to walk away.

I wish I could have been there...heh heh heh. I love a good debate. But if I couldn't have reasoned with the person, I would have happily sat on the person for you. This is a serious deterrent because I've put on weight. :twisted:

I must say this has been a very interesting thread to read. I mainly do CP/HP now but I started with MP and still do it occasionally. I actually have one of the MP soap I made in the main bathroom. It's very nice for my hands and even though it's not as conditioning as I prefer, I do have family members who think it's just fine for body soap. Well, except for the glittery girly stuff in it.  I use the clear base from Cierra Candles and it's really good quality. I noticed it's the same base that BB sells, too. Even thought I prefer my soap from scratch for my skin, there are still things I can't do with CP/HP that I can do with MP. Another positive - it's easy to make a quick gift with MP. 

I'm also impressed by the artistry and intricacy of some MP soap I've seen. I'd love to do it but I just don't have the patience.


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## cm4bleenmb

I have not done M&P, I have only done a few batches of CP. I, too, tend to be a from-scratch kind of girl but I feel that everyone should go for what they like and be respectful of others feelings and opinions.
And I want to comment on the post by The Efficacious Gentleman, where he refers to "the mind-blowing ideas that M&Pers turn in to scented reality". It's a lovely turn of praise:clap:.


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## Equestrian

TVivian said:


> If I were a vendor at a craft show or farmers market, I would be annoyed if another booth was selling M&P for the same price as I was selling CP or HP soap. Especially since most consumers really don't know the difference. I guess I would feel compelled to "educate" the masses hahaha.. .. Which might seem like bad mouthing.. (Insert nervous chuckle)



I have to ask why would you be annoyed? Why does what someone is selling their product for price wise have anything yo do with what you sell yours for? 

Wow! I haven't had a chance to check back due to my buissnesses, and the Holidays. And didn't realize how many pages this would turn into. I gave a bar of my soap to the person who was very loud about it, and asked them to please use it before judging. They said their skin felt amazing after using it, and even their sensitive skinned daughter who couldn't use their CP soap as it is to drying on her skin loved it,  and apologized for their behavior.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

While I can't answer that questions, as they are directed at someone other than me.  But I can say that there were two articles on this site, which have since been removed, that were putting forth M&P as making soap with out lye.  Which is a lie!  They were also saying that the CP soaps are more drying and so on and so on.

Now, CP soaps _can _be drying, of course.  But so can M&P soaps!  Both can also be awesome, just in different ways.  

As I have said many times, my issue is with mis-representation, such as saying M&P has no lye, is home made and is not as drying/has properties that "lye soap" doesn't have.


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## dixiedragon

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> While I can't answer that questions, as they are directed at someone other than me. But I can say that there were two articles on this site, which have since been removed, that were putting forth M&P as making soap with out lye. Which is a lie! They were also saying that the CP soaps are more drying and so on and so on.


 
Was that the article called "Alternatives to Lye"? I didnt' have a chance to read it, but i see it's gone now. Now I really want to read it.


----------



## Tienne

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But I can say that there were  two articles on this site, which have since been removed, that were  putting forth M&P as making soap with out lye.  Which is a lie!   They were also saying that the CP soaps are more drying and so on and so  on.





dixiedragon said:


> Was that the article called "Alternatives to  Lye"? I didnt' have a chance to read it, but i see it's gone now. Now I  really want to read it.




Hmm. And was the other missing article the one called "Where to Find Soap Ingredients" ?

I  can't find either of those two articles. In the comment section of the  "Ingredients" article , I questioned a claim that was made (and I can't  remember this verbatim) but it was basically along the lines that an  organic and (paraphrasing) better soap could be made without the use of  lye. It was my understanding that the "Lye Alternative" article was  supposed to address that doubt. I didn't get a chance to read the "Lye  Alternative" article though, but I would really have liked to read what  it had to say. Unless they wrote that rubbing oneself down with a  soapnut was the answer, then there simply is no way to do what they  claimed in the first article.


----------



## Hazel

Is that article gone? Oh goodie...now if we can only get rid of a few others. :roll:


----------



## TVivian

Equestrian said:


> I have to ask why would you be annoyed? Why does what someone is selling their product for price wise have anything yo do with what you sell yours for?
> 
> Melt and pour soap is cheap. You can buy a pound of it for under two dollars online. I could NEVER make cold process soap for that little what I pay for my oils. I DON'T sell and I DO use melt and pour in combination with my CP soap. So I am not coming from a place where I'm biased toward one or the other. Simply put. Pre made soap base is cheap.


----------



## Hazel

TVivian said:


> Simply put. Pre made soap base is cheap.



Not the kind I buy.  It's not that expensive, either. But it still costs a little more per pound than what I make from scratch and that's before I add shipping. It's also more time consuming for the type of soap I make from it. I do agree _*some *_MP bases are cheap and not the best in quality.


----------



## ourwolfden

I think you are paying for the time a person puts into m&p.  I know some is just a log or just simple pour in molds, but some take a really long time to complete.


----------



## Lin

ourwolfden said:


> I think you are paying for the time a person puts into m&p.  I know some is just a log or just simple pour in molds, but some take a really long time to complete.


Thats what I was thinking too. Of course if its just a solid color poured into a simple mold it didn't take much time, but if its a complicated pattern where the person had to pour in multiple layers and add embeds and color each layer separately... A lot more time involved. Many people forget that the price of something isn't just materials, most of the cost of a product is overhead.

I make and sell cat collars. If I picked up a yard of cotton fabric from the $2/yard pile at walmart, the fabric in a single collar only cost me pennies. The hardware when purchased in bulk is pretty cheap too. But there is the wear and tear on my sewing machine and iron, gas to get to the store to buy the fabric and shipping cost on my hardware, time putting items online for sale, packaging costs, time manufacturing the item...


----------



## Equestrian

TVivian said:


> Equestrian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have to ask why would you be annoyed? Why does what someone is selling their product for price wise have anything yo do with what you sell yours for?
> 
> Melt and pour soap is cheap. You can buy a pound of it for under two dollars online. I could NEVER make cold process soap for that little what I pay for my oils. I DON'T sell and I DO use melt and pour in combination with my CP soap. So I am not coming from a place where I'm biased toward one or the other. Simply put. Pre made soap base is cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but good quality ones cost much more then that. Also add in shipping and a good high quality MP base is certinally not cheap. Then add in time, clays, oils, essential oils, etc. Do you see what I mean? Yes some can be crappy cheap bases bought from craft stores, but certinally not all
Click to expand...


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## pamielynn

I don't think there are any scratch-soapers who would poo-poo the creativity, time and cost of decorative MP. I certainly don't. It's still all about how the soap is marketed. And some MPers not knowing the difference between the MP you get at Michael's and a soap made entirely from scratch.


----------



## Feather

The argument isn't really worth the electrons that are printed on the background image. 

Recipe for Chocolate Rum Balls:

Recipe 1:
Buy a chocolate cake
with chocolate icing
8 oz of rum
dipping chocolate chips

Crumble the cake, icing and rum together, drinking some rum for yourself, roll into balls, melt dipping chocolate chips, dip the balls in the chips. Cool.

Recipe 2 from scratch:
First create the world
Rest on sunday
Create humans
humans begin by growing wheat, sugar, chocolate, grow products to make oils, capture chickens for eggs, fermenting grains for rum, processing chocolate, figure out how to make a fire, create ovens and stoves, create baking utensils and pans, create a recipe, sell off your goods to people that want to make Recipe 1 because you are too tired to make it yourself.

The difference between CP and MP, is really not so different. Neither the CP'ers or the MP'ers are capable of Recipe 2, they are just different products produced in different ways. The soaps have different capabilities and the soaps are different. I have enjoyed the CP soaps and I have enjoyed the MP soaps, I happen to like the CP soaps on my skin best.

The only issue I see is honesty about how the soap was processed and what ingredients are in it, and the most important thing is what the soap does to my skin, clean it and moisturize it. 
Honesty in business is the integrity that sellers have in business. Some have none, some have some, and some have lots of it. That is what will sell or not sell long term.


----------



## Stinkydancer

pamielynn said:


> I don't think there are any scratch-soapers who would poo-poo the creativity, time and cost of decorative MP. I certainly don't. It's still all about how the soap is marketed. And some MPers not knowing the difference between the MP you get at Michael's and a soap made entirely from scratch.



This exactly! But there are CP soapers who are IMHO not good at their craft and not confident in their product so they have to put down MP, HP and anything else that is not CP. I make HP and MP soap but I started with CP and to me, CP soap is not strong enough in scent for me or my customers- though the ones I make and buy from other soap artists are wonderful, just not my cup of tea for the most part, of course there are exceptions.

People knock MP and even the whipped foaming bath butter because of the ingredients but they don't consider that high ph soaps are not for everyone's skin and some MP bases like Stephenson's with SLES are amazing and NDA's foaming bath butter as well- those are both low ph soaps and my son (as much as it pains me) cannot use my HP or CP soap or the SFIC base I sell, he has eczema and when he is in a flare, it just aggravates it more even Castile soap. My itchy back is the some way- the rest of my body is fine. Oh and before you think it- I don't make lye heavy soaps- more than 20 years experience handles that. CP/HP is a high ph soap  by nature but of course most reliable soapers know this.

In other words, just because a person doesn't do that type of soap doesn't mean it's bad. Everyone has different skin and has different comfort zones when creating their products. We create our products because we love them and believe in them, otherwise what is the point of doing it? So keep doing what you are doing- there are enough soap recipes to go around and great soap artists in every soap genre. There are also those with really pretty CP soaps that are drying. It's all relative.
Just stay positive and believe in what you are doing and selling.
There is nothing worse (at least online sales) than going to a listing and seeing a soap maker bash MP, HP, CP or any soap that isn't what they are selling. It seems like desperation to me. 
Ignore those who want to treat you like that lady who said MP isn't real soap...


----------



## Stinkydancer

TVivian said:


> Equestrian said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have to ask why would you be annoyed? Why does what someone is selling their product for price wise have anything yo do with what you sell yours for?
> 
> Melt and pour soap is cheap. You can buy a pound of it for under two dollars online. I could NEVER make cold process soap for that little what I pay for my oils. I DON'T sell and I DO use melt and pour in combination with my CP soap. So I am not coming from a place where I'm biased toward one or the other. Simply put. Pre made soap base is cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where can you do that? SFIC is mostly close to double that.
Click to expand...


----------



## froggybean37

I once had someone say "I make my own coffee every morning - it doesn't mean I get up at 2 am to harvest and roast the beans", which I thought was actually a neat metaphor!

We're all crafters, we're all artists. When I knit a sweater I can still say I made it even if I don't shear my own sheep - I don't really get the hostility between CP/HP/MP artists.  We're all on the same team, I think - lets just be supportive and helpful to each other, regardless of what the route we take to get to a great bar of soap, as long as we're doing it in the best way we know how


----------



## TVivian

Where can you do that? SFIC is mostly close to double that.[/QUOTE]


They're not SFIC, but Brambleberry, New Directions Aromatics, and soapers choice all have bulk bases for under $2 a pound. Amazon has very low prices on M&P as well. 
 (Very late on answering this.. I didn't see it)


----------



## cmzaha

lsg said:


> I have recently started making my own M&P base, experimenting with cucumber and avocado oils and shea butter. It is fun and fairly easy. Once I discovered how creative one could be with M&P soaps, I was hooked. I still make CP soap, but have branched out using M&P also. Don't let the negative attitude of others bother you, just be proud of your product.:wink:


 
This is on the top of my list for this year. I am going to start making my daughter her M&P base. At least I am going to try... I applaud anyone that can work with m&P I cannot work with it worth a da...n but my daughter does beautiful and makes some very very nice bars. We buy over a pallet a year of base from a local supplier that makes a very high end non detergent. MP soap is not bad for all skin. I actually use both cp and mp when I shower. Some areas of my body do not accept cp soap at all. A soap snob I am not. My goal is to sell soap and I have several customers that use only mp. Cp is not the answer for everyone. My daughter cannot use any handmade soap including mp, she has to use Cetaphil


----------



## cmzaha

Stinkydancer said:


> This exactly! But there are CP soapers who are IMHO not good at their craft and not confident in their product so they have to put down MP, HP and anything else that is not CP. I make HP and MP soap but I started with CP and to me, CP soap is not strong enough in scent for me or my customers- though the ones I make and buy from other soap artists are wonderful, just not my cup of tea for the most part, of course there are exceptions.
> 
> People knock MP and even the whipped foaming bath butter because of the ingredients but they don't consider that high ph soaps are not for everyone's skin and some MP bases like Stephenson's with SLES are amazing and NDA's foaming bath butter as well- those are both low ph soaps and my son (as much as it pains me) cannot use my HP or CP soap or the SFIC base I sell, he has eczema and when he is in a flare, it just aggravates it more even Castile soap. My itchy back is the some way- the rest of my body is fine. Oh and before you think it- I don't make lye heavy soaps- more than 20 years experience handles that. CP/HP is a high ph soap by nature but of course most reliable soapers know this.
> 
> In other words, just because a person doesn't do that type of soap doesn't mean it's bad. Everyone has different skin and has different comfort zones when creating their products. We create our products because we love them and believe in them, otherwise what is the point of doing it? So keep doing what you are doing- there are enough soap recipes to go around and great soap artists in every soap genre. There are also those with really pretty CP soaps that are drying. It's all relative.
> Just stay positive and believe in what you are doing and selling.
> There is nothing worse (at least online sales) than going to a listing and seeing a soap maker bash MP, HP, CP or any soap that isn't what they are selling. It seems like desperation to me.
> Ignore those who want to treat you like that lady who said MP isn't real soap...


 
We also love NDA's foaming bath butter. I have severe eczema and my friend is my dead sea salt scrub I make with my cream soap base. Really helps keep my eczema and severe itching under control.  I do add in some lavender eo. Use it after using my soap for showering.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

froggybean37 said:


> I once had someone say "I make my own coffee every morning - it doesn't mean I get up at 2 am to harvest and roast the beans", which I thought was actually a neat metaphor!
> 
> We're all crafters, we're all artists. When I knit a sweater I can still say I made it even if I don't shear my own sheep - I don't really get the hostility between CP/HP/MP artists.  We're all on the same team, I think - lets just be supportive and helpful to each other, regardless of what the route we take to get to a great bar of soap, as long as we're doing it in the best way we know how



I agree that we are mostly crafters and artists and I am not one that looks down on M&P in general (more on that later!), but I do think the analogies here are not fitting.

When someone makes coffee in the morning, we are referring to the drink of coffee - not the bag of beans.  In fact, someone who works for Kenco might well say that they make coffee for a living, but in a different way from someone in Starbucks makes coffee - coffee the commodity or coffee the drink is the key.

When you knit a sweater, you use processed wool to make it.  Raw wool still on the sheep is not required - you need the raw wool to make processed wool, but you're making a sweater FROM wool, not making wool.

To use your analogies, if I take a cup of steaming hot Joe, put in a spoon of sugar and some cream, have I just made a cup of coffee?  If I take a knitted sweater and sew on some sequins, have I just made a sweater?

In M&P, people start with soap - the soap base.  If you do not make this base yourself, you do not make soap.  In the same way that if you don't knit the sweater, you don't actually knit the sweater.

Here's the reason why I said I'd come back to my comment on M&P in general being a good thing - 

Many M&Pers take the soap base and do amazing things with it.  My other posts in this thread will also show how impressed I am with what people do with M&P.  It's mind-blowing.  But my sister (my own sister, the shame of it all!) takes a soap base, melts it down, adds some scent and colour and molds it up.  That's it.  Then she says that she's made soap, when she has done nothing of the sort!  If she was to sell it as homemade soap, I would be really annoyed with her - she doesn't make soap as she starts off with a pre-made soap base.  I would say that when she does this, she is neither a crafter nor an artist.

Taking a soap base and doing wonderful things with it is artistic, but it is still not making soap.


----------



## panzerakc

I had an entertaining conversation with a young lady who made MP soap at a craft show in the fall of 2012.

(First, though, I want to say that for the entire time of the show in question, a Saturday/Sunday show, not once did I hear her say to a customer, "My soap is made without lye".)

At some point, I wandered over to her booth, and asked her if hers was CP soap.

Her eyes got big and she shook her head.  "Oh, no, I don't do the hard stuff like you do."

Anita


----------



## Miz Jenny

TVivian said:


> If I were a vendor at a craft show or farmers market, I would be annoyed if another booth was selling M&P for the same price as I was selling CP or HP soap. Especially since most consumers really don't know the difference. I guess I would feel compelled to "educate" the masses hahaha.. .. Which might seem like bad mouthing.. (Insert nervous chuckle)



I was at 2 Christmas craft shows with a kid who makes m&p & rebatch soap at $7.50 for a 2oz bar and his parents were telling  people he made it from scratch. I sell my 6oz bars for $6.00. Customers asked me the difference between his and my soaps. One woman said "you got some real stiff competition there." I had to bite my tongue.


----------



## AnnaMarie

For me, as an artist and a purist, I view melt and pour as the equivalent of doing a paint by number instead of an actual freehand painting.  It's just my personality- it's not personal.  Some of us artists freely admit to being "snobs", and my kids poke fun at me for it often.  Enjoy your craft as long as you're passionate about it and don't worry about the snobs
Cheers!
Anna Marie


----------



## Miz Jenny

AnnaMarie said:


> For me, as an artist and a purist, I view melt and pour as the equivalent of doing a paint by number instead of an actual freehand painting.  It's just my personality- it's not personal.  Some of us artists freely admit to being "snobs", and my kids poke fun at me for it often.  Enjoy your craft as long as you're passionate about it and don't worry about the snobs
> Cheers!
> Anna Marie



((~))


----------



## Lindy

I have so much respect for what MPers can do with their bases; it simply blows me away. But it is not home-made, it is however hand-crafted and for me there lies the difference. Here in Canada even Health Canada knows that CP/HP soaps that are made properly don't contain lye once made and don't require it on the labels, however they do see MP soap as also being a cosmetic and it has to be treated the same as CP/HP for registration. MP is a craft, one that can require a lot of time, patience and talent. I have started playing with MP and plan on using it for some of the Lava Soaps I've seen others do.

I think early on in my career I was more of a snob about MP but that was before I saw some of the designs MPers can make. And that time, knowledge and talent deserve to cost the same as my CP/HP soaps.


----------



## AnnaMarie

Miz Jenny,  I'm not completely texting literate . What is the world does ((~)) mean?

Cheers!
Anna Marie


----------



## Miz Jenny

AnnaMarie said:


> Miz Jenny,  I'm not completely texting literate . What is the world does ((~)) mean?
> 
> Cheers!
> Anna Marie



I REALLY liked what you said.


----------



## AnnaMarie

Thank you!  I know a few text symbols, but not many.  My kids think I am very uncool for using symbols and emoticons in texting- lol!  Don't care!


----------



## softpinklove

Hi, I'm new here. I've only been a soaper for a little over 2 months now and use only M&P. Not because I think it's better because believe me I'd love to actually craft some CP myself! No, it's for safety of my 6 year old son who is autistic. He loves to help me make my soaps and I love seeing him have a big smile on his face! I sell them at my local pharmacy and donate a percentage of sales to Autismspeaks.org. So yes I agree that I'm not making soap from scratch but I still use the term handcrafted on my labels because I am "crafting" little pieces of art since I use embellishments, embeds, swirls, layers, etc. I'm an artist in my spare time and love that I can take that skill and put it into my soap creations.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

softpinklove said:


> Hi, I'm new here. I've only been a soaper for a little over 2 months now and use only M&P. Not because I think it's better because believe me I'd love to actually craft some CP myself! No, it's for safety of my 6 year old son who is autistic. He loves to help me make my soaps and I love seeing him have a big smile on his face! I sell them at my local pharmacy and donate a percentage of sales to Autismspeaks.org. So yes I agree that I'm not making soap from scratch but I still use the term handcrafted on my labels because I am "crafting" little pieces of art since I use embellishments, embeds, swirls, layers, etc. I'm an artist in my spare time and love that I can take that skill and put it into my soap creations.


 
Welcome!

I think that the term handcrafted is ideal for M&P - it is most certainly a craft, by hand, but avoids the whole 'made' debate!

Looking forward to pictures


----------



## softpinklove

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Welcome!
> 
> I think that the term handcrafted is ideal for M&P - it is most certainly a craft, by hand, but avoids the whole 'made' debate!
> 
> Looking forward to pictures


 
 Thank you. I have to say though that I was offended by an earlier post that said M&P was like "paint by numbers". I am an artist, I have painted in oils and watercolors for many, many years and I like to think that my finished soaps are tiny pieces of art in an of themselves whether I made the soap myself or not. I mean I understood the meaning behind the statement, but found it belittling to what I do.


----------



## Lindy

My best advice is to understand that not everyone understands what it takes to create some of those creations.  As a CP/HP soap maker I do appreciate the challenge because I can't do it, not that I've tried very hard but I have seen some amazing MP creations.


----------



## AnnaMarie

softpinklove said:


> Thank you. I have to say though that I was offended by an earlier post that said M&P was like "paint by numbers". I am an artist, I have painted in oils and watercolors for many, many years and I like to think that my finished soaps are tiny pieces of art in an of themselves whether I made the soap myself or not. I mean I understood the meaning behind the statement, but found it belittling to what I do.



Soft pink love, I'm truly sorry I offended you with my analogy of "paint by numbers". It was never intended to be demeaning- it was an honest answer to an honest question that was looking for some perspectives on why there was "perceived" hostility towards melt and pour soapers.  For a question like that to be honestly answered means hearing some things that someone might not like (I have been on the receiving end myself many times). My comment was ONLY an analogy of my view point. I used the analogy because, well, I come from a family with a long history of sketch, painting, graphic artists who would not favor doing a paint by number (paint by number people should not be offended by this). It was purely meant to illustrate why I thought the way I did. It was NOT intended to be a direct insult.  It was only my perception. I also went on in that same post to encourage people who do melt and pour to do so and "ignore the soap snobs". As long as somebody loves what they do they should do it and not apologize for it.  People will always see things differently. I hope this makes sense.  Again, I am truly sorry.
Cheers!
Anna Marie
- I do want to clarify that I think there are a lot of very beautiful melt and pour soaps out there that were lovingly handcrafted. That was never an issue with me.


----------



## Belinda02

I'm a quilter.  We've had the same type of debate in the quilt world. Is it handmade when the top is made by one person but machine quilted by another? Is it handmade when the top is machine pieced but hand quilted? Is it handmade when the top is hand pieced and hand quited? Is it hand made when all fabric and pattern is in a kit? And the debate continues since now it is possible to buy kits when even individual piece are precut, has pattern, background fabric but still needs to be quilted unique to each quilt.

It can be annoying when a quilter hand appliqué's and hand quilts versus a machine appliqué, machine quilted kit..


----------



## AnnaMarie

Belinda02 said:


> I'm a quilter.  We've had the same type of debate in the quilt world. Is it handmade when the top is made by one person but machine quilted by another? Is it handmade when the top is machine pieced but hand quilted? Is it handmade when the top is hand pieced and hand quited? Is it hand made when all fabric and pattern is in a kit? And the debate continues since now it is possible to buy kits when even individual piece are precut, has pattern, background fabric but still needs to be quilted unique to each quilt.
> 
> It can be annoying when a quilter hand appliqué's and hand quilts versus a machine appliqué, machine quilted kit..



Lol! I have been a sewer for 30 yrs now (I chose not to go the professional route), but I have not heard of this debate.  Then again I only make one quilt a year and the rest is home decor and clothing.  I hand cut and design most of my own quilt patterns, and I machine stitch my appliqués.  I am proud of most of what I make, but I would never put myself on the level with a hand quilter (if I'm understanding you correctly you mean sew by hand). I would completely get and respect a hand sewer not viewing my quilt as being as handmade as theirs 
Cheers!
Anna Marie


----------



## Belinda02

AnnaMaria, I agree.   I've done a couple with machine appliqué and have a machine for quilting.  I've done kits.  But kits are just not the same as someone doing their own project.


----------



## paillo

I'm stunned by the artistry and beauty of some M&P soapers and don't think it's inferior by any means. Post pictures of some of yours? We'd love to see some of your creativity.

I make M&P only for one boutique shop, absolutely love making it, and feel as good about it as my CP. I try to minimize chemicals in my products (I do use micas, fragrance oils, glitter, emulsifers, preserviatives, derivatives of natural products, others ingredients that are not natural), but I feel really good about the mostly chemical-free SFIC-base ingredients. 

That is so cool that you're wrapping your soapmaking around your son and his needs. That says wonderful mom to me. I would just shrug off the criticism. Some of it is not informed, and some is just people's different preferences. Believe in what you do


----------



## softpinklove

Thank you Annamarie for clarifying. 

Thank you paillo. My son definitely comes first and he really breaks out of his shell when he sees me making my soaps.  He even helps me pick out colors for my loads and gets so excited when he sees the swirls. It's magical to just see his reaction.

Loafs not loads lol... I'm using my phone to reply. I hate auto spell!


----------



## AnnaMarie

softpinklove said:


> Thank you Annamarie for clarifying.



:smile:


----------



## shoresoap

Amen! I'm a M&P soaper. When people ask about the process of making soap, I'm honest and tell them that it's melt-pour. I also tell them that I don't have 6-10 weeks for soap to cure. I make soap (create soap) as a marketing / fundraising tool for my nonprofit. I make a killer beach soap that people love! I'm getting better and better at being more artistic with adding various colors in a molded soap. I love adding mica, mixing FO for a unique scent, and just being creative. 

Yes, I'll probably try CP eventually because I love the swirls that are exclusive to CP. in the meantime, I've got a business to run and lives to save so will continue to create with the help of MP bases (low sweat in the summer!).


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

But still, unless you make your own base you don't actually MAKE soap at all:

Unscented soap is still soap, so adding fragrance to a base is not making soap. Because the base itself is already soap. 

Uncoloured soap is still soap, so adding colours to a base is not making soap. Because the base itself is already soap. 

Soap with no additives is still soap, so adding additives to a base is not making soap. Because the base itself is already soap. 

You buy soap, improve it (hopefully) and then sell it. 

I only get hostile when people who work with m&p bases continue to use the term "I make soap" when they very clearly do not make soap.


----------



## dixiedragon

shoresoap said:


> Amen! I'm a M&P soaper. When people ask about the process of making soap, I'm honest and tell them that it's melt-pour. I also tell them that I don't have 6-10 weeks for soap to cure. I make soap (create soap) as a marketing / fundraising tool for my nonprofit. I make a killer beach soap that people love! I'm getting better and better at being more artistic with adding various colors in a molded soap. I love adding mica, mixing FO for a unique scent, and just being creative.
> 
> Yes, I'll probably try CP eventually because I love the swirls that are exclusive to CP. in the meantime, I've got a business to run and lives to save so will continue to create with the help of MP bases (low sweat in the summer!). View attachment 21631


 
Can you tell me more about selling soap for a non-profit? That's something I'd really like to do!


----------



## makemineirish

*My two cents as a consumer...*

To be clear, I do not sell.  Soaping is a hobby, not my livelihood.   Therefore my perspective is that of a consumer.  Some people antique.  I  enjoy art festivals, craft fairs, and farmer's markets.  I did so long  before dipping my toes into the craft and continue to do so now.  I feel like most of the misunderstanding in this thread arises from perspective bias and posters addressing questions other than those asked.  

1) The OP's original question was: 





Equestrian said:


> *Why the hostility from cold and hot process soapers?*


  I can attest as a consumer that I have often been misinformed by crafters of all disciplines about their products.  That being said, I typically receive more misguided propaganda from M&P purveyors than those that employ hot or cold process.  The most likely explanation is that there is a lower knowledge threshold.  Please do not misinterpret my meaning.  There are obviously a number of skilled and knowledgeable artisans that manipulate their medium in fascinating ways.  Nonetheless, it takes significantly less research to complete your first batch of M&P or to start selling.  Because of that, I have been subject to many claims regarding "lye-free", "pH-neutral", or "organic" soap.  While you may not be guilty of any of these transgressions, the prevalence of this misinformation tarnishes the reputation of M&P crafters.

2)  Much of the debate has centered around the terminology that M&P is  sold under.  It appears that no one is disregarding the technique and time involved in complex M&P designs, just that it is accurately represented.  It's the same reason that contestants on Top Chef are penalized for using a boxed mix, frozen wings, or pre-packaged pasta.  Regardless of the quality of the final product, it is disingenuous to utilize pre-prepared components in a cooking competition as there IS a distinction to be drawn.  No one disputes the work involved; it is just a matter of adult responsibility and fair business practice to accurately represent what you did when questioned by those unfamiliar with the process.  A quality product is always impressive.  In this regard, I feel that The Efficacious Gentleman has  been exceedingly articulate.

3) Another point of contention is relative "quality" between the processes.  The reality is that there is spectrum in either.  I would prefer a quality M&P base over a high coconut oil CP/HP recipe (unless it is a salt bar).  That being said, many people that enter into soap making do so out of a desire to control the ingredients utilized.  With the number of exposes on corporate labeling (Honest Company, anyone), it is understandable that even the most conscientious M&P crafter is dependent on the credibility of their supplier (assuming you are not making your own like lsg).  A CP/HP soaper has the advantage of working with the raw materials.

4) TVivian and Miz Jenny brought up the issue of price disparity.  On this, I respectfully disagree.  The market is a pretty formidable mistress and I tend to think that items are worth what people will pay for them.  In Miz Jenny's example, the seller was capitalizing on the adorableness of a little kid.  While a bit exploitative, its not that different from showcasing clothes on a gorgeous model or soliciting a celebrity endorsement.  When customers ask what the difference is, tell them.  It does not denigrate the other seller to relay factual information.  As a consumer, I LOVE to know what separates you from the crowd.  Do you grow your herbs, infuse your oils, or have a point of view that I might appreciate (choices on palm, phthalates, EO's, eco packaging).  I often readjust my verdict of "fair" when I have more information.  I was once condescending and dismissive regarding some $12/lb sea salt in the bulk aisle at Whole Foods.  A stockist overheard me and explained that they had some much more reasonable options.  The expensive stuff was hand-harvested by indigenous people in frickin' baskets
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It's on my counter now and clearly labeled so I don't use it indiscriminately.




5) A final issue appears to be the relative "worthiness" of the processes.  I find this argument to be largely pointless as it depends on your priorities.  If I want a soap for my personal use in the bath, I usually reach for a CP salt soap.  My preferred facial soaps are ridiculously expensive syndets that are manufactured by a cosmetics company.  If I am grabbing hand soaps for the guest bathroom, some artfully rendered M&P could be multi-purpose: cleansing, decorative, and fragrant.

To summarize, I understand your frustration with the scenario provided in the original post.  It was unforgivably rude for someone to publicly denigrate a product that you had lovingly conceived and purposefully created.  I do not feel that much of the angst  towards M&P is warranted, but it is not completely without cause.  Hopefully, some thoughtful analysis will allow you to circumvent the mistakes that other soapers have made.  Honestly representing your own products and skillfully plying your craft will garner the respect of fellow crafters.  There will always be naysayers in any discipline.  (CP/HP soapers have to consistently defend their products against those who feel soap is destructive to the skin's acid mantle.)  The more informed you are, the less prevalent those detractors will be.

FYI - Please do not judge my ridiculous organizational system for dry goods.  The labeling is a sickness.  No sane person uses such pretentious adjectives as "Autumn Blend" on their lentils.  Sadly, it is less embarrassing than my alphabetized spice rack or soaping supply system.  I promise that I am really a good person that fosters stray animals and volunteers to help refugees.  You should in no way see this as symptomatic of serial killer tendencies.
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## The Efficacious Gentleman

A very well written post.



makemineirish said:


> ...............Please do not judge my ridiculous organizational system for dry goods..................



I actually got a little bit turned on by it


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## makemineirish

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I actually got a little bit turned on by it




"'Will you walk into my parlour?' said the Spider to the Fly'" :twisted:

(My trap successfully baited, I can finally earn my "serial" stripes.  Apparently, two doesn't count.:???




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## penelopejane

makemineirish said:


> - Please do not judge my ridiculous organizational system for dry goods. The labeling is a sickness. No sane person uses such pretentious adjectives as "Autumn Blend" on their lentils. Sadly, it is less embarrassing than my alphabetized spice rack or soaping supply system.



Great post makemineirish. 

Is there something wrong with alphabeticalised herbs and spices or books? I ask because I do both but didn't realise I was sick. (Feels forehead in consternation.)


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## earlene

I like your Autumn Lentil Blend.  Alphabetizing is entirely acceptable, IMO.  Why do you think Libraries alphabetize?  So we can find an author!  To make it easier to find what we are looking for, is why we alphabetize.  As long as we know how we file things, then we can find them.  Not everyone files in the same way, but that doesn't mean the other person's filing system is faulty; it only means we think a bit differently.  Nothing wrong with that, as long as they don't get upset with us when we can't find something they sent us to find without telling us a little bit about their filing methods.

Another benefit of M&P is that is something one can do with one's grandchildren without worrying so much about exposing them to lye.  Granted, I have had my granddaughter help make lye soap, but not in the beginning, and she is still too young to handle the lye or even CP soap batter, IMO.  Our first soap together was M&P because it was safer and the result is available for use sooner, which really is more appropriate for a young child.  That is not to say they should not learn that good things come to those who wait (cured soap, for example), but we all like a little instant gratification once in a while, right?  Her second soap with me was really a rebatch because it was all that was available for a joint project with her cousin when we were at a remote lake vacation, so we used some bars of Dove, grated them & added stuff to it, molded & they were ready for use immediately.  Her 3rd soap with me was HP.  Not sure when we will do CP together, but there is time and she does seem to have an interest.

I think M&P does benefit from a bit more cure than is customary, though.  I have used M&P immediately and it just melts too darn fast.  I have some bars I made last year with my granddaughter than seem so much better now than when they were new.


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## makemineirish

penelopejane said:


> Great post makemineirish.
> 
> Is there something wrong with alphabeticalised herbs and spices or books? I ask because I do both but didn't realise I was sick. (Feels forehead in consternation.)



The organization might not be that concerning, but it is probably a little unbalanced to stare down the significant other with death in my eyes when he inevitably mucks it up. I don't intend to.  I wrangle whatever acerbic remark wants to escape, but cannot seem to stifle the hardened GTH look of silent judgement.  Luckily, he finds it amusing (and lets the dog test his food for poison that night...just in case).
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earlene said:


> I like your Autumn Lentil Blend.



In my defense, the reason for labeling it that way is primarily because that it how it is identified in the bulk aisle.  If the significant other makes a grocery run, there is now an 85% chance that he will bring the right item home.  Those are good enough odds for me.

To a lesser degree, it is also because I am OCD enough about the labeling to want all the containers to have equivalent lines of text


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