# Help with cleansing number



## Carty812 (Apr 6, 2014)

I am new, new, new soaper! I have only made a few batches and that soap calc  is still somewhat of a mystery to me. But every time I sit down and  try and work up recipe I get all hung up on the cleansing number of bar. This is important to me for two reasons; 1st I am nurse and I have to be able to get all the germs off. 2nd I have oily skin. My number is always on the low end how do I get it to be more cleansing. Keep in mind I have gone to college and I have tried playing around with numbers and percentages of oil. :crazy:
This is the last recipe I made:
1		Beeswax	3.333	0.094	1.500	42.524
2		Castor Oil	5.556	0.156	2.500	70.874
3		Coconut Oil, 76 deg	17.778	0.500	8.000	226.796
4		Lard, Pig Tallow Manteca	44.444	1.250	20.000	566.990
5		Olive Oil	17.778	0.500	8.000	226.796
6		Sesame Oil	11.111	0.313	5.000	141.748
*	*	Totals	100	2.813	45.000	1275.728


Any help will be greatly appreciated and thank you in advance if you respond!


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## Obsidian (Apr 6, 2014)

Try this, the cleansing number is 15 which is about average. Too much higher and you will have a drying soap. Coconut is the oil that creates a cleansing soap and OO is highly conditioning.

Lard       20 oz
Olive Oil  11 oz
Coconut  10 oz
castor    2.5 oz
beeswax 1.5 oz

H2O 15 oz
Lye 6.23 oz
5% SF


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## lpstephy85 (Apr 6, 2014)

Upping the coconut will increase the cleansing number in soaps. I would say taking it up to 25% and lowering the lard to 37% to accommodate it. Re-run through Soapcalc and it will give you a cleansing of 17. Up the superfat to 7 to balance the drying of a higher cleansing. Not sure if I am correct on this but I think regardless of how high the cleansing number is it will still clean you.


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## lpstephy85 (Apr 6, 2014)

Here is my Soapcalc screenshot:


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## newbie (Apr 6, 2014)

YEs, you are correct. Soap will clean even if the "cleansing number" is zero. DeeAnna had an incredibly good post about the soap calc numbers. Let me see if I can find it; I think I saved it.


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## newbie (Apr 6, 2014)

Okay, this is DeeAnna's post. I did not write this. I saved the info but not the link to the thread as SMF has been known to lose all its old posts before.

DeeAnna says:
"When evaluating a soap recipe, you can look at the individual amounts of each fatty acid (myristic, lauric, stearic, palmitic, oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc) to determine the effect of each fatty acid on the soap ... or you can use the SoapCalc "numbers" to do much the same thing, only simpler. Problem is ... and I've said this elsewhere on SMF ... is that the names of the SoapCalc numbers are misleading. It is also important to remember that the fatty acid profile and the SoapCalc numbers do not account for the effect of superfat nor the effect of additives (sugar, milk, honey, sodium lactate, etc.)

So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric 0
Myristic 0
Palmitic 25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic 28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic 2-7% (average is about 4%)
Linolenic 0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness 61 
Cleansing 0
Condition 38
Bubbly 0
Creamy 61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

*Hardness*: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids. 

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. It does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%. 
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%. 

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

*Cleansing*: The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids. 

It is a measure of how water soluble the soap is -- meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water. The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

*Conditioning*: The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids. 

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to soften and soothe the skin. The "anti tight-and-dry" property, so to speak.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

*Bubbly*: The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids. 

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long. 

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right? 

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

*Creamy*: The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

*Long life*: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water. 

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.


Okay, whew, I quit for now!"

DeeAnna rocks chemistry.


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## lpstephy85 (Apr 6, 2014)

That is one of my fave posts on this forum, Newbie!! I thought about it the whole time I was doing my post just didn't feel like posting it, lol.


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## newbie (Apr 6, 2014)

I wish I could bold it in places because it would help break it up to be more approachable to the eye. She had it bolded but it didn't carry through when I copied it. oh Wait, maybe I can. I'm technologically impaired but I think I had a  breakthrough.

It is a great explanation. I wish they would sticky it.


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## Carty812 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks for the help. I think once I get that darn soap calc down I might be able to do better. I also have a problem with using percentages in recipes, it's like my brain isn't quite wired that way or something. I am having a lot of fun "trying" to make soap though. Obsidian if you don't mind I may try again tomorrow with your recipe. Thank you again guy for your help. This is the friendliest and most helpful place for newbies thanks to you guy.


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## Susie (Apr 6, 2014)

Hey Carty812!  

And welcome!  So nice to have another nurse added to our numbers!

I had the same worries about the soap getting the germs off.  I did a couple of cultures of my hands after an antibacterial soap wash, and after washing with my first homemade soap with a relatively low cleansing number.  There was no greater growth from my hands after my soap than from the antibacterial.  I was very happy to see that!

I know the government has tried to tell us that it is just as safe to use regular soap, but it is the same government that requires hospitals to use antibacterial
soaps for handwashing.(the government is not at all contradictory)  So, I thought it was better to be safe than sorry.


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## hud (Dec 9, 2014)

Carty812 said:


> Thanks for the help. I think once I get that darn soap calc down I might be able to do better. I also have a problem with using percentages in recipes, it's like my brain isn't quite wired that way or something. I am having a lot of fun "trying" to make soap though. Obsidian if you don't mind I may try again tomorrow with your recipe. Thank you again guy for your help. This is the friendliest and most helpful place for newbies thanks to you guy.



This is how you do it, first convert the percentage into decimal numbers (for example 25 %=0.25) then multiply the decimal by the amount  of soap you want to make , say  32 oz  it becomes .25x32=8 oz .
The last step is to make it in grams as grams are more accurate and preferrable.
If you have hard time with converting into decimal numbers this may help. 25% means 25 divided by 100 =0.25.


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## Susie (Dec 9, 2014)

That post is 8 months old.


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## girlishcharm2004 (Dec 9, 2014)

You don't need to turn it into ounces before going to grams.  If you have 25% coconut oil and you're using a total of 1000g oils.  Multiple 0.25 by 1000g will give you 250g.  Just keep your units the same throughout -- it doesn't matter if you have 1000 grams, ounces, or pounds.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 10, 2014)

Actually SoapCalc makes it even easier than that!

Put in the actual recipe first of all, then click "calculate" - soap calc will give you the %.  Write it out or print it out for reference

Start soap calc again

Put the % in to soapcalc and set your batch size to the total amount of oils that you want to use, click "calculate" and soap calc will tell you how much of each oil to use to get those % for the total batch size.


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## hud (Dec 10, 2014)

girlishcharm2004 said:


> You don't need to turn it into ounces before going to grams.  If you have 25% coconut oil and you're using a total of 1000g oils.  Multiple 0.25 by 1000g will give you 250g.  Just keep your units the same throughout -- it doesn't matter if you have 1000 grams, ounces, or pounds.


That's right if she chose to use grams instead of ounces. For me I use both, when it comes to EO it's some times much easier and more accrate to measure by grams than ounces. If I have .988 oz of EO I'll use 28 grams instead.


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## hud (Dec 10, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Actually SoapCalc makes it even easier than that!
> 
> Put in the actual recipe first of all, then click "calculate" - soap calc will give you the %.  Write it out or print it out for reference
> 
> ...


Why you have to start again, it does all the job one time altogether.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 10, 2014)

It was for demo purposes - so that people unused to the process can see how easy it is to take % recipes and enter it in for a batch size of their choice


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## hud (Dec 10, 2014)

Susie said:


> That post is 8 months old.


 
It might help some one you never know.:razz:



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It was for demo purposes - so that people unused to the process can see how easy it is to take % recipes and enter it in for a batch size of their choice


 
Good point


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## Ruthie (Dec 11, 2014)

Susie said:


> Hey Carty812!
> 
> I know the government has tried to tell us that it is just as safe to use regular soap, but it is the same government that requires hospitals to use antibacterial
> soaps for handwashing.(the government is not at all contradictory)  So, I thought it was better to be safe than sorry.



Well, Susie, I PROMISE not to start here about *the government.*  :smile:  But what difference does it make if the bacteria are dead, as long as you get them off your hands?  As a matter of fact, if a person has a septic tank, it is not advisable to use an antibacterial soap, because they are needed for the breaking down process within that system.

As for having oily skin, just be sure not to go too high with the cleansing, as your body will react and produce MORE oil.  Ask me how I know....


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## Susie (Dec 11, 2014)

That is my point exactly.  The germs are gone from my hands(I did a swab and checked it for myself.)  I just don't care other than that.


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## vuladams (Jan 1, 2015)

Following


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## Cindy2428 (Jan 1, 2015)

Carty - welcome aboard! You will find excellent resources here. As someone who has gone through probably a ream of paper exploring and printing recipes, just remember that the numbers are only guidelines - They do not take into account your superfat for example. Also plug in Castile soap - 100% olive oil - the numbers are horrible, but it makes a gentle, conditioning soap. In addition your additives and liquid substitutions will make a difference not reflected in soapcalc. Sugar, salt, sodium lactate, fats from milks, etc all make a difference in your finished product. It's a wonderful addiction, enjoy


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