# "We" or "I" on labels?



## Kari Howie (Oct 11, 2019)

I have been making CP soap for  about 3 years and even started my own teensy little company--trademarked name, logo and all. Well now I am writing an ingredients blurb in the "conversational" described by Marie Gale in her book. I wrote everything in the "I make" "I use" etc format and sent it off to my daughter to critique. She said I should change it to "We" because it sounds more like how a professional brand would talk about itself. Unless I use the royal "We", I can't see including an imaginary helper who hasn't helped me make soap. What say y'all?


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## Amonik (Oct 11, 2019)

It depends on what image you want imo. If you want ”handmade, small business, personal” I think ”I” emphasizes that.


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## Kari Howie (Oct 11, 2019)

Amonik said:


> It depends on what image you want imo. If you want ”handmade, small business, personal” I think ”I” emphasizes that.


That's exactly what I thought, especially since I've done all the work with no help from anyone.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 11, 2019)

"We" implies there are two or more people involved or someone wants the "voice" of the company to feel more impersonal. I think you also see the "royal we" used by companies that want to appear more high end or sophisticated. Often stuff written with the royal we sounds contrived and snooty, but that's just me. 

"I" implies a single person who is deeply involved in all aspects of the company and who approaches the business as a craftsman or artisan.


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## Kari Howie (Oct 11, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> "We" implies there are two or more people involved or someone wants the "voice" of the company to feel more impersonal. I think you also see the "royal we" used by companies that want to appear more high end or sophisticated. Often stuff written with the royal we sounds contrived and snooty, but that's just me.
> 
> "I" implies a single person who is deeply involved in all aspects of the company and who approaches the business as a craftsman or artisan.


Yes! Thank you for affirming what I felt.


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## Michele50 (Oct 11, 2019)

If it were me, I'd use the "I" since it'd reflect the heart and soul I put into what I'm creating. @DeeAnna and @Amonik summed it up well.


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## Kari Howie (Oct 11, 2019)

Michele50 said:


> If it were me, I'd use the "I" since it'd reflect the heart and soul I put into what I'm creating. @DeeAnna and @Amonik summed it up well.


Thanks, Michele50


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 11, 2019)

I would use neither "I" nor "We" to describe how the soap is made. Try using "The soap" as the subject. 
I haven't read Marie Gale's excellent book but I have done a lot of editing over the years. When writing "blurbs" the less said the better. Aim at getting the message across in 2-3 well-written sentences or even phrases, if that suits your style and message. 

PS: If you think you can handle a brutal carnage of your prose, Kari,  feel free to post what you wrote here and let me (and others) have at it! heh, heh.


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## Michele50 (Oct 12, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I would use neither "I" nor "We" to describe how the soap is made. Try using "The soap" as the subject.
> I haven't read Marie Gale's excellent book but I have done a lot of editing over the years. When writing "blurbs" the less said the better. Aim at getting the message across in 2-3 well-written sentences or even phrases, if that suits your style and message.
> 
> PS: If you think you can handle a brutal carnage of your prose, Kari,  feel free to post what you wrote here and let me (and others) have at it! heh, heh.



*Very Good Point! *The "*soap*" is actually the *subject *so that makes perfect sense. The focus is on the ingredients chosen and used so the blurb can be told from the point of view of the 'soap,' as it were. I've never written one so I have no clue but this post has me learning something.

The soap contains bla, bla, bla for bla bla reason....instead of, I use bla, bla, bla when I make bla, bla, bla.

I wrote a parent manual for our large Childcare Center and one for my employees. I asked one of the parents to read them and offer feedback--good and BAD. I actually told her that I was interested in any negatives because it would be of much help. It's advantageous to have objective criticism when one is trying to do something efficiently.


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## lucycat (Oct 12, 2019)

Who is your customer?  If I did wholesale I might consider "We" and probably "the soap" as suggested.  I don't.  I sell to individuals and they know me and my business name is simply an extension of me.  So, "I" makes more sense.  I think it depends on you and how you perceive your business and the expectations of your customer base.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 12, 2019)

I would agree it's also not good to start every sentence with "I". If a person is presenting an artist statement of goals, however, it may be hard to entirely avoid "I" and use "the soap" or similar "not I" nouns as the subject.

Also beware of using the passive voice to avoid the use of "I". "_The soap is made with..._" (passive) is not better than "_I make the soap with..._" (active).


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## TheGecko (Oct 13, 2019)

Kari Howie said:


> I have been making CP soap for  about 3 years and even started my own teensy little company--trademarked name, logo and all. Well now I am writing an ingredients blurb in the "conversational" described by Marie Gale in her book. I wrote everything in the "I make" "I use" etc format and sent it off to my daughter to critique. She said I should change it to "We" because it sounds more like how a professional brand would talk about itself. Unless I use the royal "We", I can't see including an imaginary helper who hasn't helped me make soap. What say y'all?



For that particular blurb, I would avoid all pronoun and use something like..."Kari Soaps are only made with high quality ingredients; Extra Virgin Oil (pressed by actual virgins), Palm Oil (RSPO Certified), Coconut Oil (76 deg), Cocoa Butter (organic), blah blah blah.  Essential Oils and Fragrance Oils are thoroughly tested for purity and cruelty free."

The use of "I/My" or "We/Our" would be dependent on a number of factors.  As an example, I used to have a company that provided legal document preparation services for pro se litigants.  My decision to start the business was strictly business and since it was my intent to grow the business beyond a single individual, and because I wanted to present a more professional appearance I used "We/Our" or simply the name of the company.

My decision to start a soap company is more personal even though it is my intent to grow the business and make oodles and oodles of money so I can retire before I die and buy an RV and travel the country and leave the soap making to someone else.  Hey, I can dream!  Seriously though, I noticed that since I eliminated antibacterial soaps from our house three years ago, none of us have been getting sick every year like we used to.  Using my soaps exclusively the last three months the rough, dry patches on the bottom of my forearms are gone.  I've been saying for years that the reasons why we have so many health issues is because we have been poisoning our bodies with chemicals...from the foods we ingest, to the stuff we use on our bodies.  So the history of why I started my company will be personal, the rest will be business.


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## Michele50 (Oct 13, 2019)

TheGecko said:


> For that particular blurb, I would avoid all pronoun and use something like..."Kari Soaps are only made with high quality ingredients; Extra Virgin Oil (pressed by actual virgins), Palm Oil (RSPO Certified), Coconut Oil (76 deg), Cocoa Butter (organic), blah blah blah. Essential Oils and Fragrance Oils are thoroughly tested for purity and cruelty free."
> 
> The use of "I/My" or "We/Our" would be dependent on a number of factors. As an example, I used to have a company that provided legal document preparation services for pro se litigants. My decision to start the business was strictly business and since it was my intent to grow the business beyond a single individual, and because I wanted to present a more professional appearance I used "We/Our" or simply the name of the company.
> 
> My decision to start a soap company is more personal......"



Very good explanation of how to approach a blurb and what things to consider. 



TheGecko said:


> "......Seriously though, I noticed that since I eliminated antibacterial soaps from our house three years ago, none of us have been getting sick every year like we used to.  Using my soaps exclusively the last three months the rough, dry patches on the bottom of my forearms are gone.  I've been saying for years that the reasons why we have so many health issues is because we have been poisoning our bodies with chemicals...from the foods we ingest, to the stuff we use on our bodies.  So the history of why I started my company will be personal, the rest will be business."



@TheGecko, I agree with your comments about chemicals in things--products and foods. I've had serious problems with hands since childhood. At the age 15, bathing with shampoo instead of bar soap (not much better, but some) helped but, not until I started making soap 3 years ago did the drying out of hands to the point of cracking open and bleeding end. I must take the 'real' soap with me when we travel and stay at hotels or visit our adult sons because their commercial "soaps" bring back all those issues--sandpaper skin, fissures, open cuts, and then bleeding. 

With everyone's help, if I ever want to write a blurb (for anything) I'll be ahead of the game due to all the good points in this thread.


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## Obsidian (Oct 13, 2019)

So how many of you who sell actually write a blurb on your products? Have you ever gotten feed back, good or bad on this practice?

I don't see this often and when I do, it always turns me off. I didn't figure this was a common thing to do.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 13, 2019)

I use cigar band type labels for my soaps. Upper left corner says
_Zany Handmade Soap_
then this little blurb:
_One of Life's Little Luxuries_


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## TheGecko (Oct 13, 2019)

Obsidian said:


> So how many of you who sell actually write a blurb on your products? Have you ever gotten feed back, good or bad on this practice?




I have on my labels what is required by US law:  On the front is the name of my company, the name of my soap (which includes the word "soap") and the weight in ounces/grams.  On the back is the list of ingredients, my website and the city/state that it is made in.  I don't have to include my physical address (my home) since it is publically available through the Secretary of State's office.



> I don't see this often and when I do, it always turns me off. I didn't figure this was a common thing to do.



Why would a tagline turn you off?


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## Soapnoob (Oct 13, 2019)

I vote for we. What if you do get a helper 6 months from now?


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## TheGecko (Oct 13, 2019)

Michele50 said:


> Very good explanation of how to approach a blurb and what things to consider.



The simple fact is, there is a lot of negativity surrounding 'home-based' businesses and/or home crafts.  A lot of people want to imagine that their soap in being made by folks in hazmat suits surrounded by stainless steel vats...not wearing jammies in their kitchen using bowls and spatulas they bought from the Dollar Store/Tree/General.  Even if they know that their soap is being 'handcrafted', they still image quaint little soap 'studios', not converted basements or garages.

While I currently make soap on a rolling kitchen island while wearing jammies and using bowls and spatulas that I bought from the Dollar Store, my goal is to have a small storefront and a back room where I can make my soap and teach soap making.


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## Obsidian (Oct 13, 2019)

Never mind


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## Misschief (Oct 14, 2019)

Wait.... on labels? Nope.... nothing regarding me or I. However, I have a brochure that I include with my products. In it, I refer to both I and we. Labels, however, have the name of the product, the weight, the ingredients and whatever I am supposed to put on the labels but no "blurb". Labels are for the facts, not the explanations.


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## Kari Howie (Oct 14, 2019)

Soapnoob said:


> I vote for we. What if you do get a helper 6 months from now?


I can’t see that ever happening, especially since I get no support from my family.


Soapnoob said:


> I vote for we. What if you do get a helper 6 months from now?


I suppose that’s a remote possibility. My husband certainly isn’t interested. However I did meet a young gal at church who wants me to teach her how to make soap. I’m not expecting that to blossom into anything however.



Misschief said:


> Wait.... on labels? Nope.... nothing regarding me or I. However, I have a brochure that I include with my products. In it, I refer to both I and we. Labels, however, have the name of the product, the weight, the ingredients and whatever I am supposed to put on the labels but no "blurb". Labels are for the facts, not the explanations.


I was using guidance from Marie Gale with inspiration from the label on a bottle of Guinness Stout that lyrically extolled it’s virtues.



Zany_in_CO said:


> I would use neither "I" nor "We" to describe how the soap is made. Try using "The soap" as the subject.
> I haven't read Marie Gale's excellent book but I have done a lot of editing over the years. When writing "blurbs" the less said the better. Aim at getting the message across in 2-3 well-written sentences or even phrases, if that suits your style and message.
> 
> PS: If you think you can handle a brutal carnage of your prose, Kari,  feel free to post what you wrote here and let me (and others) have at it! heh, heh.


I’ll work on it some more then I’ll submit it for vivisection.


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## TheGecko (Oct 14, 2019)

Kari Howie said:


> I was using guidance from Marie Gale with inspiration from the label on a bottle of Guinness Stout that lyrically extolled it’s virtues.



I looked up her website and searched for 'conversational' since I thought you were talking about your company, not the actual label for your products.  As such, I agree 110% with @Misschief.  Save the 'conversational' for advertising/marketing, but keep your labels simple and factual; especially in light of how many folks these days have allergies and sensitivities to certain ingredients.


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## amd (Oct 14, 2019)

When I do write ups about my soaps, I use "I" or "Sherry", depending on how personal I feel like being. More than likely if I ever get a helper, I'll still be doing all the making, the helper will be doing sales, marketing, shows and whatnot.


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## Lin19687 (Oct 16, 2019)

If this is going to be on your soap label........... don't bother, most never will really read it or care.

If it is on your Website, then use 'I' if you want to talk about YOUR Biz.

focus on what you want for the Biz and if you are going to sell sell.  Get a website and work on it from there.
You will change it a dozen times


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## shunt2011 (Oct 16, 2019)

I too use I when describing my business.  We implies there are more than one of you making the products.


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## Marilyn Norgart (Oct 16, 2019)

amd said:


> the helper will be doing sales, marketing, shows and whatnot.



the dishes--don't forget the dishes 

I agree with Misschief as there is only so much room on the labels for info that should be on there. But I was taught in my college classes to not use "I" too much.  Maybe use your business name instead of "I"


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## DeeAnna (Oct 16, 2019)

_"I vote for we. What if you do get a helper 6 months from now?..."_

If Kari eventually gets a helper, she may still choose to talk about HER business with "I" or she might decide to use "we". Sometimes helpers are simply helpers with little or no input on business or creative decisions. Sometimes they become partners with a more equal say.

But at this point, it doesn't really matter -- that's something that might happen or it might not. I don't know that anyone starts a business knowing where it will end up, and it's perfectly fine to grow, change, and adapt.


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## Kari Howie (Oct 16, 2019)

Here is the first draft of my soap description using conversational wording (see pages 128-129 of Marie Gale's book.) My goal was to create a profile of the ingredients I commonly use that, based on the wording, the consumer can see may not be the entire list of all ingredients. All this so I can order a single label rather than a bazillion different labels for each type of soap.

"The handcrafted soap you are holding is made on a little horse farm named Hestland Gård in the heart of North Carolina’s coastal plain.  It contains saponified oils such as palm, coconut, olive, or rice bran and is enriched with specialty oils such as babbassu, shea, mango, or cocoa butters. A variety of micas, clays, oxides or herbs are used to create the delightful designs.  Whether au naturel or lusciously scented with pure fragrance and essential oils, Hestland Gård's boutique soaps make the mundane shower or bath feel special and spa-like.


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## Deborah Long (Oct 16, 2019)

TheGecko said:


> Extra Virgin Oil (pressed by actual virgins)


I spit out my coffee, laughing!  Good one!


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## Lefty (Oct 16, 2019)

I've struggled with this when it comes to social media posts. I'm the only one working in my business, but for some reason, I tend to lean toward using "we" when posting because I tend to think it makes the business sound more professional. Maybe I'm considering myself and "the business entity" as two separate things working together, and that's how I justify the "we." 

How do others approach social media posting...we or I?


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## Misschief (Oct 16, 2019)

Lefty said:


> I've struggled with this when it comes to social media posts. I'm the only one working in my business, but for some reason, I tend to lean toward using "we" when posting because I tend to think it makes the business sound more professional. Maybe I'm considering myself and "the business entity" as two separate things working together, and that's how I justify the "we."
> 
> How do others approach social media posting...we or I?


I keep mine impersonal; for instance, here's a recent Facebook description of my Charcoal Castile soap:
_"Another batch of Charcoal Castile soap. This has been a popular soap and it will be ready just in time for the autumn markets. Charcoal soap is said to be effective for break out prone skin and because it's castile, it's very gentle. It's fragranced with lavender essential oil, a very gentle oil, good for all skin types. And it's vegan friendly!"_


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## Millie (Oct 16, 2019)

Kari Howie said:


> Here is the first draft of my soap description using conversational wording (see pages 128-129 of Marie Gale's book.)
> 
> "The handcrafted soap you are holding is made on a little horse farm named Hestland Gård in the heart of North Carolina’s coastal plain.  It contains saponified oils such as palm, coconut, olive, or rice bran and is enriched with specialty oils such as babbassu, shea, mango, or cocoa butters. A variety of micas, clays, oxides or herbs are used to create the delightful designs.  Whether au naturel or lusciously scented with pure fragrance and essential oils, Hestland Gård's boutique soaps make the mundane shower or bath feel special and spa-like.



I think it's perfect! That would make me want to buy your soap, to experience a little piece of Hestland Gard. And then I looked up the name "Hestland Gard" online (because it is beautiful and intriguing) and found your website, which is gorgeous. Well done!


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## Kari Howie (Oct 17, 2019)

Millie said:


> I think it's perfect! That would make me want to buy your soap, to experience a little piece of Hestland Gard. And then I looked up the name "Hestland Gard" online (because it is beautiful and intriguing) and found your website, which is gorgeous. Well done!


Thank you so much, Millie!


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## TheGecko (Oct 17, 2019)

Lefty said:


> I've struggled with this when it comes to social media posts. I'm the only one working in my business, but for some reason, I tend to lean toward using "we" when posting because I tend to think it makes the business sound more professional. Maybe I'm considering myself and "the business entity" as two separate things working together, and that's how I justify the "we."
> 
> How do others approach social media posting...we or I?



Depends on what I am posting about.  Largely I use 'we' because even though I am the only one actually making the soap, I could not do it without the support and help I get from my family so they are as much as part of the business as I am.  I do on occasion share amusing tales of soap making successes and disasters...it reminds folks that we are more than a faceless company, that soap making is work and we care very much about the quality of the products we sell.

On the website...it's pretty much all about the soap and the ingredients.  I do have an "About Us" page that talks about how the company started, the reason behind the name, where we are at and where we are going.  It's ongoing.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 17, 2019)

TheGecko said:


> it reminds folks that we are more than a faceless company, that soap making is work and we care very much about the quality of the products we sell.


Well said.


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## SoapySuds (Oct 17, 2019)

Or go without pronouns and talk about the soap:

This soap is made by seasoned hands. Peppered by long hours and finished with some sea salt. Choice oils, such as olive, cacao, and emu were specifically chosen for the wonderful properties they bring. Don’t be afraid to buy an acre of this soap. It cleans you.

So instead of ‘I’ or ‘we’ or ‘they’ the pronoun becomes you and is understated because the conversation is directed towards the reader. It’s not about you, it’s about your customer.


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## Lefty (Oct 17, 2019)

Misschief said:


> I keep mine impersonal; for instance, here's a recent Facebook description of my Charcoal Castile soap:
> _"Another batch of Charcoal Castile soap. This has been a popular soap and it will be ready just in time for the autumn markets. Charcoal soap is said to be effective for break out prone skin and because it's castile, it's very gentle. It's fragranced with lavender essential oil, a very gentle oil, good for all skin types. And it's vegan friendly!"_



This is great, I didn't even think to take the pronouns out all together. Thank you!



TheGecko said:


> Depends on what I am posting about.  Largely I use 'we' because even though I am the only one actually making the soap, I could not do it without the support and help I get from my family so they are as much as part of the business as I am.  I do on occasion share amusing tales of soap making successes and disasters...it reminds folks that we are more than a faceless company, that soap making is work and we care very much about the quality of the products we sell.
> 
> On the website...it's pretty much all about the soap and the ingredients.  I do have an "About Us" page that talks about how the company started, the reason behind the name, where we are at and where we are going.  It's ongoing.



Agreed! I'm trying to find a balance of looking professional on social media, but also wanting to bring in some of the personal, and showing more of the process, etc. I think it definitely helps when people know a bit about the person making the products!


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## TheGecko (Oct 18, 2019)

Kari Howie said:


> Here is the first draft of my soap description using conversational wording (see pages 128-129 of Marie Gale's book.) My goal was to create a profile of the ingredients I commonly use that, based on the wording, the consumer can see may not be the entire list of all ingredients. All this so I can order a single label rather than a bazillion different labels for each type of soap.
> 
> "The handcrafted soap you are holding is made on a little horse farm named Hestland Gård in the heart of North Carolina’s coastal plain.  It contains saponified oils such as palm, coconut, olive, or rice bran and is enriched with specialty oils such as babassu, shea, mango, or cocoa butters. A variety of micas, clays, oxides or herbs are used to create the delightful designs.  Whether au naturel or lusciously scented with pure fragrance and essential oils, Hestland Gård's boutique soaps make the mundane shower or bath feel special and spa-like.



Babassu is only spelt with one "b".  With that said, I understand where you are coming from in that it is cheaper to purchase one lot of 5000 labels that it is to purchase 50 lots of 100 labels and gives you lots of wiggle room to change up your recipe by providing a general list of ingredients that you use.  

I haven't read her book, last updated in 2015, but I did find the below on her website and dated July 1, 2018 (https://www.mariegale.com/if-one-then-all/):  

Under *False and Misleading*:  _If you say “Ingredients: ____ ” so the consumer thinks it’s a standard ingredient list and everything is in descending order of predominance, but you re-order the list so  your 1% of shea butter is a the top of the list making it look like it’s mostly shea butter… that would be false or misleading.

On the other hand, if you tell what’s in your soap in a “conversational manner” so the consumer doesn’t think that it’s an “official ingredient declaration” you have a little more wiggle room. When you say something along the lines of, “We make our soaps with a unique blend of seven plant-based oils, including olive, macadamia nut and jojoba” … the customer can instantly see that this is not an official “ingredient declaration,” and understands that there are other ingredients in the soap._

My issue is with the last line that I have underlined.  It would be great if that were so, but too many consumers don't understand the difference between an "official ingredient declaration" and a "conversational".  And while she may have promoted the "conversational" in her book, under *Best Practice* in the article she says:

_While you are *not required* to put an ingredient declaration on your soap, best practice would suggest that it’s a good idea, for several reasons:_

_Consumers have come to expect an ingredient declaration on the products they put on their bodies, not having the ingredients may be a red flag to them._
_Savvy shoppers are familiar with ingredients (or at least think they are) and look to the ingredients declaration to help determine the quality of the product._
_People with specific allergies (especially nut allergies) may immediately pass on any bath & body product (including soap) that doesn’t have a complete ingredient declaration._
I use an "official ingredient declaration" myself.  I pretty much use the same recipe for the majority of my regular and Goat Milk Soaps I just have a Master Template for each so all I need to add is any color, scent or other additive which is highlighted so I don't forget and then it's a simple matter to print however many I need (I have a color LaserJet).  I am currently printing my front labels (another template), but eventually will have a preprinted ones where I only need to put in the name of the product and write in the weight.

I save my 'wiggle room" for my Ingredients List on my website.  Since I don't want my soap to fall under stricter 'cosmetic' rules, I make no claims on my labels other than it is 'soap'.  But on my Ingredients List, I can talk about the benefits of those ingredients.


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## Kari Howie (Oct 18, 2019)

amd said:


> When I do write ups about my soaps, I use "I" or "Sherry", depending on how personal I feel like being. More than likely if I ever get a helper, I'll still be doing all the making, the helper will be doing sales, marketing, shows and whatnot.





TheGecko said:


> Babassu is only spelt with one "b".  With that said, I understand where you are coming from in that it is cheaper to purchase one lot of 5000 labels that it is to purchase 50 lots of 100 labels and gives you lots of wiggle room to change up your recipe by providing a general list of ingredients that you use.
> 
> I haven't read her book, last updated in 2015, but I did find the below on her website and dated July 1, 2018 (https://www.mariegale.com/if-one-then-all/):
> 
> ...


Thanks, Gecko, for taking the time to provide such in depth analysis and advice.  It is so helpful. I don’t have a color copier, but I could make a simple ingredient declaration in black typeface. I had been thinking I would order labels hence the attempt at one size fits all. Printing them myself seems easier and cheaper. Thank you again! Everyone here has been great.


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## SoapySuds (Oct 19, 2019)

There are two ‘b’s in Babassu.

B(1)ab(2)assu.


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## TheGecko (Oct 22, 2019)

SoapySuds said:


> There are two ‘b’s in Babassu.
> 
> B(1)ab(2)assu.



She had spelled it as Babbassu.


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## atiz (Nov 5, 2019)

FWIW, at the farmers market in town here there are usually 3 soapers selling soap. Only one of them lists ingredients; one don't even package their bars, and the other one uses plain brown paper (no label). 
If I did buy a soap, I would like it to have the precise ingredients listed, and would be avoiding much of the "blurbs". (Maybe because I have to read so much bs when grading... I'm a bit allergic to unnecessary writing even if it's nicely done.)


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## Megan (Nov 13, 2019)

TheGecko said:


> I save my 'wiggle room" for my Ingredients List on my website.  Since I don't want my soap to fall under stricter 'cosmetic' rules, I make no claims on my labels other than it is 'soap'.  But on my Ingredients List, I can talk about the benefits of those ingredients.



You still should not talk about "benefits" of your ingredients even on your website...you can still run into trouble for making claims this way


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## TheGecko (Nov 14, 2019)

Megan said:


> You still should not talk about "benefits" of your ingredients even on your website...you can still run into trouble for making claims this way



Who said I was making claims?  One of the benefits of using an organic/unrefined Cocoa Butter is the lovely cocoa smell.  One of the benefits of using RSPO Palm Oil is supporting the sustainable production instead of destruction thereof.  I have two test batches curing...one with pumice sand and one with pumice powder.  I have no doubts that the powder will offer a gentler exploitation than the sand.

I am aware of how some folks talk about their ingredients...how this ingredient is good for that and that ingredient is good for this and no doubt it is true, BUTT...this is soap.  Not including the changes to the ingredients during the saponification process, it’s not a product that remains on your skin but maybe a few minutes between washing it on and rinsing it back off.


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## Megan (Nov 14, 2019)

TheGecko said:


> Who said I was making claims?  One of the benefits of using an organic/unrefined Cocoa Butter is the lovely cocoa smell.  One of the benefits of using RSPO Palm Oil is supporting the sustainable production instead of destruction thereof.  I have two test batches curing...one with pumice sand and one with pumice powder.  I have no doubts that the powder will offer a gentler exploitation than the sand.
> 
> I am aware of how some folks talk about their ingredients...how this ingredient is good for that and that ingredient is good for this and no doubt it is true, BUTT...this is soap.  Not including the changes to the ingredients during the saponification process, it’s not a product that remains on your skin but maybe a few minutes between washing it on and rinsing it back off.



The way you worded what you said originally ("benefits of those ingredients") would lead many to believe you are making drug and cosmetic claims...This happens all of the time in this industry...

...And FWIW, exfoliation is a cosmetic claim.


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## TheGecko (Nov 14, 2019)

Megan said:


> The way you worded what you said originally ("benefits of those ingredients") would lead many to believe you are making drug and cosmetic claims...This happens all of the time in this industry...



In reviewing my wording..._"I save my 'wiggle room" for my Ingredients List on my website. Since I don't want my soap to fall under stricter 'cosmetic' rules, I make no claims on my labels other than it is 'soap'. But on my Ingredients List, I can talk about the benefits of those ingredients."_...I can see how you came to your conclusion...sometimes my fingers get to typing before my thought is fully formed or I've just realized what time it was and needed to get going.



> ...And FWIW, exfoliation is a cosmetic claim.



That is a $64,000 question.  The FDA defines a cosmetic as "_a product (excluding pure soap) intended to be applied to the human body for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance_*.*"  It also says:  _"Soap is a category that needs special explanation. That's because the regulatory definition of "soap" is different from the way in which people commonly use the word. Products that meet the definition of "soap" are exempt from the provisions of the FD&C Act because—even though Section 201(i)(1) of the act includes "articles...for cleansing" in the definition of a cosmetic—Section 201(i)(2) excludes soap from the definition of a cosmetic. "
_
When you exfoliate all you are doing is helping the body do what it is already doing...shedding dead skin cells.  Technically you can do this with your fingernails or a washcloth, even a salted soap bar.  Unless you look like a snake in the middle of shedding its skin, exfoliating isn't going to make you look better or alter your appearance.  

Saying that Pumice Powder is more gentle than Pumice Sand isn't a claim, it's a simple fact.  Saying that using Pumice Powder will leave you will glowing skin...that's a cosmetic claim.  

Saying that Cocoa Butter contains natural antioxidants isn't a claim, it's a simple fact.  Saying or implying that it keeps your skin from aging...that's a cosmetic/drug claim and a false one at that when it comes to its use in soap because soap is a wash on/rinse off products.  Coconut Oil has antibacterial properties, but it's doesn't make your soap an 'antibacterial' soap.

Just to CMA, I am looking at submitting my Ingredients description to the FDA because it's all about the soap.  I may be a small, making my soap on a dedicated rolling kitchen island in my kitchen, business right now, but my goal is to have a thriving business with a brick & mortar location with a half dozen employees in ten years, and having to hassle with the government in any form at any stage is not in the plan.  So do it right now and you won't have to do it right later.

Okay...off to work.


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 14, 2019)

TheGecko said:


> I have no doubts that the powder will offer a gentler *exploitation* than the sand.






    Doncha just luv auto-correct?!


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## TheGecko (Nov 14, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> View attachment 42536
> Doncha just luv auto-correct?!



OMG!


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## KiwiMoose (Nov 14, 2019)

Deborah Long said:


> I spit out my coffee, laughing!  Good one!


I was wondering when someone was going to comment on that! LOL

@Kari Howie - I would probably change the order of the last two descriptors to"...spa-like and special."  Only because I think it flows off the tongue better, and ends the sentence a bit more neatly.


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