# Clever or Cheat?



## Zany_in_CO (Nov 27, 2020)

Today I received an order with the product shipped in a USPS
*Priority Mail® Small Flat Rate Box* ~ 5-3/8" x 8-5/8" x 1-5/8" ~ $8.30
It was wrapped in bubble wrap, and then placed inside a USPS
*Priority Mail® Flat Rate Envelope* ~ 12-1/2" x 9-1/2" ~ $7.75
For a savings of *55¢!*





I can't make up my mind whether this was a clever way to save on shipping or cheating the USPS? 
Hmmm


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## msunnerstood (Nov 27, 2020)

The rule for priority flat rate boxes is, if it fits, it ships. I know many companies that do this (including me) but more to protect the items than to save on shipping costs.


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## lenarenee (Nov 27, 2020)

Hmm....and the flat rate box is free, provided by the usps to slip into the envelope and save 55 cents.  So...I’d have to say ‘both’.


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## BattleGnome (Nov 28, 2020)

I offer a contrasting opinion. What was in the box? Was it breakable? How was the inside of the box packed?

I can see a seller who has had too many products break in transit want to do everything they can to have items reach the buyer’s home in one piece. Something fragile wrapped in bubble wrap in a box in more bubble wrap in an envelope will have several layers to get to the fragile item. Bubble wrap ain’t pennies, the seller might have chosen to to put those extra 55 cents into protection instead of extra postage to replace a broken item.


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## GemstonePony (Nov 28, 2020)

I'm not sure I understand the quandary: the box fit into the envelope, correct?


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## earlene (Nov 28, 2020)

I think her point is that the person who did the mailing 'stole' from the USPS by using the box and putting the box inside the envelope, rather than to just pay the cost of one or the other.  Ethics, my dear, ethics.


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 28, 2020)

earlene said:


> I think her point is that the person who did the mailing 'stole' from the USPS by using the box and putting the box inside the envelope, rather than to just pay the cost of one or the other.  Ethics, my dear, ethics.


Exactly! At a time when the USPS is operating at a loss, I have seen people help themselves to those FREE Flat Rate Priority Mail boxes for packing books and other items when moving. ...And the USPS wonders why they are losing money.  


BattleGnome said:


> What was in the box? Was it breakable? How was the inside of the box packed?


It contained a *48 oz. Mina's USP Vegetable Glycerin* in a plastic container that perfectly fit into a *Priority Mail® Small Flat Rate Box* ~ 5-3/8" x 8-5/8" x 1-5/8" ~ $8.30


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 28, 2020)

GemstonePony said:


> I'm not sure I understand the quandary: the box fit into the envelope, correct?


Correct. But the shipper did not pay shipping for the box, only the envelope. So, the USPS incurs the cost of a box that may never be used for it's intended purpose, i.e, shipping.


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## lucycat (Nov 28, 2020)

Personally, It lessens my opinion of the seller when I purchase something where this has been done.  Priority boxes are great but following USPS rules for using them seems only right.  I expect a plain box inside the priority mail envelope if a box is needed.  The information when you order boxes is below.  It doesn't expressly prohibit the practice but it is clear that the intention is for the box to have been used with postage.

I understand that Priority Mail Express™, Priority Mail®, Global Express Guaranteed®, Priority Mail Express International™ and Priority Mail International® packaging is the property of the United States Postal Service and is provided solely for sending Priority Mail Express™, Priority Mail®, Global Express Guaranteed®, Priority Mail Express International™ and Priority Mail International®. Misuse may be a violation of federal law.


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## KimW (Nov 28, 2020)

Not to be a PollyAnna, but I've done this exact thing by the instruction of our Postal Clerk.  I came in with a box and she told me I could ship for less money with an envelope.  I of course agreed to send with the envelope and she put the already taped up priority mail box into the envelope, printed another label and sealed that thing shut before I could say, "shut my mouth".  Just a thought that maybe something like that happened...?


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 29, 2020)

KimW said:


> Just a thought that maybe something like that happened...?


The purchase came from a vendor. Therefore, I assume it's not a one-time thing but rather a standard practice.


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## KimW (Nov 29, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> The purchase came from a vendor. Therefore, I assume it's not a one-time thing but rather a standard practice.


Oh, that is really too bad.  I call "cheat" then.  Bad, bad.


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## AliOop (Nov 29, 2020)

But if that is how the post office is instructing people to send it, then I don't see that as wrong to follow their directions.


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## KimW (Nov 29, 2020)

AliOop said:


> But if that is how the post office is instructing people to send it, then I don't see that as wrong to follow their directions.


In my case, I don't think the postal clerk was actually instructing me to send a priority mail box inside a flat rate/priority envelope as standard procedure.  I think it was perhaps a one-off situation.


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## dibbles (Nov 29, 2020)

KimW said:


> In my case, I don't think the postal clerk was actually instructing me to send a priority mail box inside a flat rate/priority envelope as standard procedure.  I think it was perhaps a one-off situation.


I agree with you. The postal worker was probably just trying to help you out in that one instance. I think if someone is using a flat rate/priority envelope, they should provide their own box to put inside it.


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## GemstonePony (Nov 30, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Correct. But the shipper did not pay shipping for the box, only the envelope. So, the USPS incurs the cost of a box that may never be used for it's intended purpose, i.e, shipping.


I take it the box has not been shipped before, then? In which case, I'd say it's cheating, since the box hasn't filled it's intended purpose. But if it's a box they had received something in and then repurposed, I'd say it's clever, since the USPS would have already regained the cost of making the box.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 30, 2020)

This royally p****s me off when people do this. We ship hundreds of packages via USPS priority every year, and I am a stickler about using these resources ethically. I reuse clean packing materials like bubble wrap, air packs, and paper fill as much as possible -- I'm all for recycling! -- but I refuse to misuse the new shipping materials provided by USPS, UPS, and FedEx.

I've gotten stuff shipped via UPS inside unused USPS priority boxes that had been taken apart and turned inside out. That was back in the day when USPS hadn't started to mark the insides of their boxes to prevent this kind of abuse. It's amazing the lengths people will go to in order to avoid spending a dime.

I've warned people who do this (usually eBay sellers in my experience) that as a consumer I don't appreciate this kind of shady stuff. A few times a seller has smirked and more-or-less said "what the usps doesn't know won't hurt them." I've retorted that _I_ know what they're doing, and it hurts _me _and others by driving up USPS costs, and I promise them I won't be shy about leaving critical reviews.


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## TheGecko (Nov 30, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I can't make up my mind whether this was a clever way to save on shipping or cheating the USPS?



It's clever.  



GemstonePony said:


> I take it the box has not been shipped before, then? In which case, I'd say it's cheating, since the box hasn't filled it's intended purpose. But if it's a box they had received something in and then repurposed, I'd say it's clever, since the USPS would have already regained the cost of making the box.



I guess I've "cheating" the government for years then because I have quite often NOT used the box for it's intended purpose.  I work for a CPA firm and I cut up the medium boxes to use as inserts in the envelopes when sending documents to clients.  

UPSP gives the boxes and envelopes away for free so how is it 'cheating'.  The simple fact is...you don't HAVE to use a designated "priority" box/envelope to send something via Priority Mail.  If you want to talk 'cheating'...it's the USPS changing the size of its Small box from a square to a rectangle.


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## KimW (Nov 30, 2020)

GemstonePony said:


> I take it the box has not been shipped before, then? In which case, I'd say it's cheating, since the box hasn't filled it's intended purpose. But if it's a box they had received something in and then repurposed, I'd say it's clever, since the USPS would have already regained the cost of making the box.


Ahhh - I hadn't thought about this possible scenario!


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## jcandleattic (Nov 30, 2020)

I don't do this persay - but I do use a box roughly the same size as the priority small flat rate box, and put that inside the flat rate envelope. It gives the items more protection from the USPS just throwing the boxes around, so there is less damage and less chance of having to replace/refund items. 

Even though I know people find this unethical or wrong or whatever, I personally do not see any harm in this practice.


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## dibbles (Nov 30, 2020)

jcandleattic said:


> I don't do this persay - but I do use a box roughly the same size as the priority small flat rate box, and put that inside the flat rate envelope. It gives the items more protection from the USPS just throwing the boxes around, so there is less damage and less chance of having to replace/refund items.
> 
> Even though I know people find this unethical or wrong or whatever, I personally do not see any harm in this practice.


I see nothing wrong with using a USPS flat rate envelope to ship a box that _isn't _a new, unused USPS flat rate box. In that scenario, "if it fits, it ships" is correct usage of the envelope.


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## Mobjack Bay (Nov 30, 2020)

Somewhat of a sidebar, but I was able to pack 8 bars of soap into a USPS padded flat rate envelope after wrapping them in a recycled Amazon bubble bag (So, double layer of bubble wrap), and with cardboard from recycled boxes slipped in on both of the flat sides for extra protection.  It’s not pretty, but then I’m giving the soap away...


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## earlene (Dec 1, 2020)

Just so you know: Printed on every Priority Mail Box and Envelope:

_"This packaging is the property of the United States Postal Service and is provided solely for use in sending Priority Mail shipments. Misuse may be a violation of federal law. This packaging is not for resale."_

Flat-Rate Boxes & Envelopes ARE Priority Mail; they are called Priority Mail Flat Rate Boxes or Envelopes 

Check for yourself.  I just did; I looked at every one of them I have in my house from packages recieved and boxes awaiting to be filled to mail out.

So even if a postal employee tells a customer to misuse postal property in this way, the fines for violation would still fall on the customer who sent the mail.  It may never be found out, but if the package were broken open in transit and the violation observed, and it were found out, who would be to blame?  The person who paid the postage and mailed to package.

Clever?  When is violating federal law clever?  Cheating?  This is worse than cheating.  At the very least, it is theft of service, and that in and of itself is illegal and has been prosecuted in many instances.  At worst it is a federal crime.

Remember the USPS is a federal agency and violating USPS regulations can and does lead to federal prosecution in many cases.  If you don't care about ethics, at least consider what it would mean to you and yours, should you ever be convicted of a federal crime in the US.  It haunts you for the rest of your life, and in some states, you even lose your right to vote.


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## KimW (Dec 1, 2020)

earlene said:


> So even if a postal employee tells a customer to misuse postal property in this way, the fines for violation would still fall on the customer who sent the mail.  It may never be found out, but if the package were broken open in transit and the violation observed, and it were found out, who would be to blame?  The person who paid the postage and mailed to package.


Good food for thought, @earlene.  I completely agree, and I should have thought of this when our postal clerk shoved my package into an envelope.  Reminds me of what we always told the kiddos:  Just because you can, doesn't mean you should (as in, don't do the wrong thing out of privilege, because no one's looking, or because someone in authority told you to).  And, of course, my own Mom's consistent reminder, "Ignorance is no excuse for the law".  Thanks for the head-check, lady.


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## dixiedragon (Dec 1, 2020)

I'm going to go with cheat, b/c I think the cost of the box is included in the flat rate box shipping cost, vs the cost of the envelope. That being said, it's possible she's recycling a box that's be used once, in that case that's just smart.


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## CatahoulaBubble (Dec 6, 2020)

Did the box look new? I've reused boxes I've gotten from shipped items like this because it reuses packaging that I'd other wise toss in the recycle bin. I will use my heat gun to peel off labels and it looks like a new box. I suppose it could be a cheat but it could also be an upcycle.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 6, 2020)

CatahoulaBubble said:


> Did the box look new?


Yes. Tsk tsk.


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## SPowers (Dec 6, 2020)

hmmm... if I were to try that here in Canada, I would have to pay for both the box and the enevelope!  No freebies here!


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## Lin19687 (Dec 13, 2020)

I have several packs of Priority boxes that I use for holding my soaps- They were Damaged when they delivered them so I don't feel bad about using them for other purposes.  Then again they are the Regional A boxes so not like they are huge and I use them for moving.
I also got a couple packs on CL 2 years ago from someone that couldn't use them, the USPS would not take them back. Even though there was nothing wrong with them 
I reuse what I can, USPS, UPS, Fedex for home stuff but not for shipping to other people especially now.

I just looked behind me and there are 9 bigger boxes behind me that I saved from supply orders sent to me.  2 are filled with paper from the shipping

Personally I thought the Flat envelopes had to have things less then 1 inch thick and I don't want my soap ruined due to it being tossed around, so I mail in boxes only


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## AliOop (Mar 30, 2021)

@Zany_in_CO here is a YT video where she explains that the package you received (priority box inside priority envelope) is a legal and allowed use of priority mail products.

Go to the 8:05 minute mark in the video where she says that she has confirmed this numerous times with the postmaster. She also explains some other uses of the priority mail products that are not legal.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 30, 2021)

*@AliOop* COOL!


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## AliOop (Mar 30, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> *@AliOop* COOL!
> View attachment 55650


Isn’t it funny how we (or is it just I?) find something like this when we are totally looking for an answer to something else?


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 30, 2021)

So true!!!


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## cmzaha (Mar 30, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> This royally p****s me off when people do this. We ship hundreds of packages via USPS priority every year, and I am a stickler about using these resources ethically. I reuse clean packing materials like bubble wrap, air packs, and paper fill as much as possible -- I'm all for recycling! -- but I refuse to misuse the new shipping materials provided by USPS, UPS, and FedEx.


I agree that it makes me mad. When we were shipping a lot of products we *Purchased *boxes that fit inside the padded envelopes. I do use a smaller previously *used* post office box, once in a while, to put inside a larger to separate items as long as it shows it a used box. 

It is not unethical to put a box inside the padded envelope if you buy the box. If it fits it works.


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## AliOop (Mar 30, 2021)

@DeeAnna and @cmzaha 

In the video I posted above, she explains that the USPS specifically allows you to put a new USPS priority box inside a new USPS priority envelope, and legally pay the lower priority envelope price. She says she has verified with the postmaster numerous times that this is acceptable use of their packaging, per their rules.

She also adds a disclaimer that it is not ok to use the free USPS mailing materials inside a FedEx or UPS mailer, since that is going outside the USPS system.


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## MGM (Apr 17, 2021)

Let me get this straight....USPS *gives away packing material* and it is *operating at a loss*. 
I think I see the problem here.....


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## gladysjones (Apr 17, 2021)

The real question remains, can you use it for a mold?


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 18, 2021)

MGM said:


> Let me get this straight....USPS *gives away packing material* and it is *operating at a loss*.
> I think I see the problem here.....


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## earlene (Apr 18, 2021)

MGM said:


> Let me get this straight....USPS *gives away packing material* and it is *operating at a loss*.
> I think I see the problem here.....



They don't GIVE it away to be used for any other purpose than for USPS mailing.  It is a violation of Federal Law to use it for any other purpose.

You are not a US citizen, and probably don't realize the background on our Constitutional & Congressional history of our Postal Service.

The USPS was not created as a money making enterprise.  It was created to provide a valuable service, interstate communication, to US citizens.  The creation of Post Offices and Postal Roads was what Congress was charged with creating when it was added to the Constitution in Article 1 Section 8.   It is the US Congress' responsibility to oversee the USPS.  The USPS is mandated to adhere to regulations as set out by the US Congress, but it is here for the purpose of providing a valuable service to its citizens, which it does endeavor to do fairly within the restraints of federal regulation and oversight.

The _real reason_ the USPS is losing money is because of a law enacted in 2006 by lawmakers that requires that Department to fund future retirement benefits (75 years  into the future!) in such a way that no other federal program requires, nor do any private sector companies adhere to either.

In my opinion, it was totally asinine to create such a ridiculous rule for the US post office, but the purpose was clearly to force the USPS to either raise prices exponentially &/or force it to lose money so they (Congress) could make a case for disbanding this service to our citizens in hopes of privatizing it, which in turn would end up removing it from being a citizen-owned enterprise to a for-profit enterprise that could/would decrease services & increase costs, which invariably is what happens when public services are privatized.  (My interpretation of the facts as evidenced by legislative attempts & actions over past decades.)

That is what is really going on with the USPS.  Some lawmakers want it to fail so they found a way to make that happen with total disregard to what is right or fair or for their actual constituents.

I am not saying this for any political reason, but merely to educate those who don't understand what is going on and why your statement is based on insufficient knowledge of the facts.



gladysjones said:


> The real question remains, can you use it for a mold?


No, not legally. At least not the Priority mail boxes.  And not the boxes used for sorting mail or for use by Non-Profit mail.  This question has been addressed in the past.  Read the statement written on the boxes themselves.

See also: https://faq.usps.com/s/article/How-do-I-Use-or-Reuse-Boxes-Properly


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## Professor Bernardo (Apr 19, 2021)

earlene said:


> The _real reason_ the USPS is losing money is because of a law enacted in 2006 by lawmakers that requires that Department to fund future retirement benefits (75 years  into the future!) in such a way that no other federal program requires, nor do any private sector companies adhere to either.



I agree with the above statement to some degree, however the USPS has been losing money for decades.  One of the major reasons is the junk mail rate the USPS charges.  Look at how much junk mail each household receives on a weekly basis.  The postal carriers do not like handling it as it slows them down, etc., but the reason it's there is because of the ridiculously low rate that is charged to the customer.  Other than helping to start a charcoal fire starter, the only other use for this voluminous amount of printed colored paper is to scrunch it into balls and use it for padding INSIDE the USPS Priority Mailing boxes.  Compare the weight of the junk mail, especially the big tabloid-style ads to the first class mail.  It was an eye-opener for me.

I know there are some who are the "Couponing" type of person... yet those are usually few and far between.


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## earlene (Apr 19, 2021)

Professor Bernardo said:


> I agree with the above statement to some degree, however the USPS has been losing money for decades.  One of the major reasons is the junk mail rate the USPS charges.  Look at how much junk mail each household receives on a weekly basis.  The postal carriers do not like handling it as it slows them down, etc., but the reason it's there is because of the ridiculously low rate that is charged to the customer.  Other than helping to start a charcoal fire starter, the only other use for this voluminous amount of printed colored paper is to scrunch it into balls and use it for padding INSIDE the USPS Priority Mailing boxes.  Compare the weight of the junk mail, especially the big tabloid-style ads to the first class mail.  It was an eye-opener for me.
> 
> I know there are some who are the "Couponing" type of person... yet those are usually few and far between.


Then you should be happy to know that marketing mail volume has decreased over 11.5 billion pieces since the pandemic started.  (Possibly closer to 13 billion, but it is hard to extrapolate from the FY reporting as it correlates to the dates the pandemic was declared.)  

Just as a point of interest, we don't receive hardly any junk mail at all, after I made a concerted effort to have our address removed from junk mail lists.  It was a little bothersome to do, but quite effective.


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## Stephd31 (Apr 19, 2021)

Professor Bernardo said:


> I agree with the above statement to some degree, however the USPS has been losing money for decades.  One of the major reasons is the junk mail rate the USPS charges.  Look at how much junk mail each household receives on a weekly basis.  The postal carriers do not like handling it as it slows them down, etc., but the reason it's there is because of the ridiculously low rate that is charged to the customer.  Other than helping to start a charcoal fire starter, the only other use for this voluminous amount of printed colored paper is to scrunch it into balls and use it for padding INSIDE the USPS Priority Mailing boxes.  Compare the weight of the junk mail, especially the big tabloid-style ads to the first class mail.  It was an eye-opener for me.
> 
> I know there are some who are the "Couponing" type of person... yet those are usually few and far between.



I just used dmachoice.org to unsubscribe my deceased mother and my hoarding father from junk mail. More people should know about this service.


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## MGM (Apr 19, 2021)

Oh I know that the USPS is, for the most part, self-funding, which is quite a feat. Imagine a country even larger than the US, with 10% of the population, which still guarantees service for everyone in every corner of it (some accessible only by float or ski planes), ideally at the same price point. You would require such a population to supply their own packing materials, even if you didn't think they would cheat.
Other interesting differences between US and Canada....Canadian postal workers walk their route. We don't have those little trucks that drive around neighbourhoods. You take the bus to the beginning of your route, walk 25km or so over 8 hours, then take the bus home....not for the faint of heart!
And, we don't have Saturday delivery. When I lived in France, some businesses got mail delivery twice a day! Now, this was a couple of decades ago, but how posh is that?? They were probably drinking red wine and smoking cigarettes while they opened it....


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 19, 2021)

earlene said:


> That is what is really going on with the USPS.  Some lawmakers want it to fail so they found a way to make that happen with total disregard to what is right or fair or for their actual constituents.


Thanks for that explanation, *@earlene*. Sadly, it just makes me crazier about the system than before. 

Here's what arrived by USPS last Saturday. A 98¢ lamp part I ordered from a company in Chicago.






It was wrapped in a
USPS PRIORITY MAIL, PADDED FLAT RATE ENVELOPE - *$8.55*
Then placed in a second one  - *$8.55*
Then mailed in a plain padded envelope:
5 OZ. FIRST CLASS PARCEL RATE, ZONE 5 NO SURCHARGE, "ComBasPrice"
Which I assume was *$4.00* because that's what I was charged.

I guess what I'm saying is, although it may be illegal, *@MGM* was spot on. The behavior is rampant -- both businesses and John Q. Public are using USPS for whatever suits them -- packaging materials, soap molds, and most notably, moving boxes for books and like items -- because they are well-made and FREE!

ETA: I told myself long ago that I wasn't allowed to complain unless I had a solution for the problem. For the life of me, I am unable to some up with a solution to this one, given the divergent attitude of the Fed. vs USPS!!!


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## earlene (Apr 20, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Thanks for that explanation, *@earlene*. Sadly, it just makes me crazier about the system than before.
> 
> Here's what arrived by USPS last Saturday. A 98¢ lamp part I ordered from a company in Chicago.
> 
> ...


I know that few people really want to get involved to the extent of reporting waste of federal resources, but here is a lint about something citizens can do that might be help with a solution:  https://www.uspsoig.gov/hotline


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 20, 2021)

earlene said:


> I know that few people really want to get involved to the extent of reporting waste of federal resources, but here is a lint about something citizens can do that might be help with a solution:  https://www.uspsoig.gov/hotline


Cool.  I bookmarked it. Thanks!


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