# "Unpopular" Ingredients.



## DWinMadison (Feb 19, 2013)

For those of you who sell commercially, do you find that there are ingredients that frequently make customers recoil or think twice? For instance, I would think for people who don't understand true "soap," beef tallow as an ingredient could turn up some noses.  If I mention "Crisco," "lard" or "shortening" I swear my daughter looks at the bars like they will make her fat if she rubs one on her skin.  And my mom-in-law gets "the vapors" at the mention of coconut oil, because of course, 1 drop of it in a soap recipe will instantly turn her into the Crypt Keeper.  How do you get people over that?


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## Marilyna (Feb 19, 2013)

Stop telling people what's in it.  Most don't really care.  At least that's my experience.  I have sold for a total of about 5 years (but been out of it for past 6 years).  I found a few looked at the label, but almost never questioned what was on it.  The others never even looked at the ingredients.  I have always used tallow, and have never had anyone question it at all.

Every now and then, I would be asked if my soaps were all natural.  I would just say they mostly are, except for some of the colors and fragrances.  Then they would go ahead and buy it!

Also, the whole thing about oils & fats doesn't sound appealing anyway.  Ours soaps are not oil & fats - they're a whole new substance - soap - after the chemical reaction takes place.


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## CaliChan (Feb 19, 2013)

That's a very good point. Even when mom asks me what's in it I don't tell her. I just say "oils and fats", lye, what EO I used, what colorant I used, and any juice or milk I may have used Most people will just look at the ingredients for allergy reasons. My husband was weird about lard till I explained to him that a lot of commercial soaps contain lard.


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## Crocoturtle (Feb 19, 2013)

I think it's crazy coo-coo to turn your nose up at animal fat soap if you EAT animals. People be such hypocrites.


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## rodeogal (Feb 19, 2013)

I am a stalker, er I mean investigator, and I have looked at the ingredients of some people that sell A LOT of soap.  I found that a ton of them use soybean oil - as the main ingredient (It could be Crisco, who knows).  Others that use lard or tallow (like me) use it in smaller portions and simply list it as 'natural fats'.  I liked the sound of that, so I adopted it.  With it falling so far down the label, it won't get questioned anyway.  Just my thoughts.


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## lizflowers42 (Feb 19, 2013)

I would challenge them to look at the ingredients in their favorite "soap" at home.  You aren't going to please everyone, regardless of what you do.  I have people that say how excited they are about things I have made, come to find out they just use them as "decoration" or until they have a "special occasion" to bring it out.  What occasion is special enough to wash your hands? lol


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## DWinMadison (Feb 19, 2013)

I know I'm "preaching to the choir," and I'm a sustaining member of P.E.T.A. ("Peaple Eating Tasty Animals").  I was just wondering how to deal with the nay-sayers.  Fat has gotten a really bad reputation in American culture.  And, many retail-oriented consumers are programmed to believe anything pre-packaged is "good" and everything else is somehow inferior.  Not picking on my daughter, but she's been trained to believe a dress made by some child paid $1/day in a  Malaysian sweat shop with the right label is, by default, superior to a hand-made dress from an experienced seamstress who lives down the street.  My family thinks my soap is a neat hobby, they they still prefer Dove or Dial when they want to get "really clean."  I can't imagine every using commercial soap again if I have the choice.


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## rodeogal (Feb 19, 2013)

I have seen a lot of soap on Etsy where the makers proudly proclaim VEGAN and I believe the masses come running. LOL.. However, since I make goat milk soap, it is moot that I use tallow.  Just by the very nature of my soap it is not VEGAN.  I love eating tasty animals!


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## Marieke (Feb 19, 2013)

The only reason I don't use animal fats is because I'm a vegetarian and a parttime vegan. It is indeed hypocrite to eat the meat and to dreject the fat in soap. 

I know lots of people freak out when I tell them I use sodium hydroxide which is also use to unclogg drains. But when I explain that it's not in the soap after it's ready, most people are okay with it. And asking about the ingredients in their store bought soap and cosmetics ususally shuts them up if neccesary. They buy that without even thinking about the chemicals in there. They never call the soap factory and ask them about it eh?


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## DWinMadison (Feb 19, 2013)

rodeogal said:


> I am a stalker, er I mean investigator, and I have looked at the ingredients of some people that sell A LOT of soap.  I found that a ton of them use soybean oil - as the main ingredient (It could be Crisco, who knows).  Others that use lard or tallow (like me) use it in smaller portions and simply list it as 'natural fats'.  I liked the sound of that, so I adopted it.  With it falling so far down the label, it won't get questioned anyway.  Just my thoughts.



"Natural fats"... Now I like the sounds of that!  I could even see "natural fatty acids from plant and/or animal sources)...now if I can just work in the word "sustainable."   :evil:


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## lizflowers42 (Feb 19, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> Not picking on my daughter, but she's been trained to believe a dress made by some child paid $1/day in a  Malaysian sweat shop with the right label is, by default, superior to a hand-made dress from an experienced seamstress who lives down the street.



It is a cultural/age thing.  She will change her mind in due time DW, and then beg you for your hand crafted goods!  I was going to add to my last statement along with checking the label to look where it was made.


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## DWinMadison (Feb 19, 2013)

lizflowers42 said:


> I would challenge them to look at the ingredients in their favorite "soap" at home.  You aren't going to please everyone, regardless of what you do.  I have people that say how excited they are about things I have made, come to find out they just use them as "decoration" or until they have a "special occasion" to bring it out.  What occasion is special enough to wash your hands? lol



Yeah this one drives me crazy too.  My mom is 80 and won't use the soap I give her because it's "too pretty."  I'm like, "Hey mom....clock's tickin' baby.  Get to scrubbin'.  Lot's more where that came from."  I think one us should start a line of soap called "Use Me!"


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## lizflowers42 (Feb 19, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> Yeah this one drives me crazy too.  My mom is 80 and won't use the soap I give her because it's "too pretty."  I'm like, "Hey mom....clock's tickin' baby.  Get to scrubbin'.  Lot's more where that come from."  I think one us should start a line of soap called "Use Me!"



bahahahahahahhahahahaha that would be great. Then you can partner with this artist! http://shirtoid.com/4521/lil-soap/


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## DWinMadison (Feb 19, 2013)

lizflowers42 said:


> bahahahahahahhahahahaha that would be great. Then you can partner with this artist! http://shirtoid.com/4521/lil-soap/



Already writing the jingle..."I like wet butts, and I cannot lye..."  Get it..."lye"...see what I did there?


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## lizflowers42 (Feb 19, 2013)

80's music man...telling you, that's the stuff!


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## melstan775 (Feb 19, 2013)

The base ingredient In dove is sodium tallowate. People don't know what it is, they think it's one of those unpronounceable words that is bad for thier health. Don't bein it their attention ad instead sell benefits. "all natural" is a good one.


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## Crocoturtle (Feb 19, 2013)

Is there a thread with a list of all the names of the alkali salts or a site that lists them? i.e sodium tallowate, sodium palmate


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## terminatortoo (Feb 19, 2013)

rodeogal said:


> I am a stalker, er I mean investigator, and I have looked at the ingredients of some people that sell A LOT of soap.  I found that a ton of them use soybean oil - as the main ingredient (It could be Crisco, who knows).  Others that use lard or tallow (like me) use it in smaller portions and simply list it as 'natural fats'.  I liked the sound of that, so I adopted it.  With it falling so far down the label, it won't get questioned anyway.  Just my thoughts.


*Natural fats, I like that!*


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## TeriDk (Feb 19, 2013)

I tell people that I use food grade oils and of course, cocoa butter is an ingredient of chocolate.  Haven't seen any food with Shea, mango or other butters that I use.:mrgreen:


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## CaliChan (Feb 19, 2013)

Crocoturtle said:


> Is there a thread with a list of all the names of the alkali salts or a site that lists them? i.e sodium tallowate, sodium palmate



 im gonna start one now cause i dont think that there is one.
I think it would be nice to have a thread of commercial ingredients so we can be better armed for when people ask us questions about our soaps and comparing them to the store poop.


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## SueSoap (Feb 19, 2013)

I don't think it's worthwhile to try to help customers "get over" ingredients they don't like.  I try to make good soap, and good soap can be made with a variety of ingredients in a variety of ways.  If they don't want lard, then I offer them a soap that doesn't have lard.  Same with palm, which seems to be unpopular now.


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## danahuff (Feb 19, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> Yeah this one drives me crazy too.  My mom is 80 and won't use the soap I give her because it's "too pretty."  I'm like, "Hey mom....clock's tickin' baby.  Get to scrubbin'.  Lot's more where that came from."  I think one us should start a line of soap called "Use Me!"



Oh, I get that, too! People buy it and tell me it's too pretty, so they put it in their underwear drawer. 

I had someone convo me on Etsy the other day about my honey oatmeal goat milk soap, and she was clearly hoping I used raw honey and farm fresh goat milk. I live in a fairly urban area. I don't know where I would get that kind of goat milk. I should think Meyenberg from Trader Joe's would work as well as farm fresh.

My point is that you can't make everyone happy. Best thing is to be as diverse as you van be so there is something for everyone.


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## melstan775 (Feb 19, 2013)

danahuff said:


> she was clearly hoping I used raw honey and farm fresh goat milk.



This is a prime example of miseducation about food. Farm fresh milk needs to be pasturized to have a shelf life, so if you didn't have a processed milk, your soap would be rancid inside a week. 

And honey* is* raw. There's issues with honey purity and safety because the sources aren't clear and there's some unsafe honey going around the US, but that doesn't negate that honey is raw. It just is. Pollen is filtered out of it, so technically food honey is a sap... but yeah, I can't think of anything in particular that makes honey not raw, unless it's cooked, but I've never heard of that.


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Feb 19, 2013)

In the pasteurizing & filtering process the honey gets heated. So many think it's benefits are removed. I, myself, cannot have the 'raw' or 'fresh' honey with the pollen & honeycomb in the jar. Cause stated in another tread I am allergic.


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## Crocoturtle (Feb 19, 2013)

I know that it takes at least 120 degrees to pasturized something but really, once you put it in the soap, no honey or milk is going to be raw anymore.


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## Kansas Farm Girl (Feb 19, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> Yeah this one drives me crazy too.  My mom is 80 and won't use the soap I give her because it's "too pretty."  I'm like, "Hey mom....clock's tickin' baby.  Get to scrubbin'.  Lot's more where that came from."  I think one us should start a line of soap called "Use Me!"



Make sure the ones you give her are the "ugly" ones. I usually have an ugly one on the end of my loaf, depending on what mold I use. My daughter refuses to give soap to anyone who says they didn't use it because of all the reasons given here.


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## melstan775 (Feb 19, 2013)

Moonshea Botanicals said:


> In the pasteurizing & filtering process the honey gets heated. So many think it's benefits are removed. I, myself, cannot have the 'raw' or 'fresh' honey with the pollen & honeycomb in the jar. Cause stated in another tread I am allergic.



I guess it does get a little bit heated doesn't it?Do you know for sure if they cook it or is it just warmed in the filtration process?


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## Crocoturtle (Feb 19, 2013)

melstan775 said:


> I guess it does get a little bit heated doesn't it?Do you know for sure if they cook it or is it just warmed in the filtration process?


 unless it states raw, most honey is heated to 160 for pasturization. It can still contain botulism spores after pasturization but it is pasturized.


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## melstan775 (Feb 19, 2013)

Crocoturtle said:


> unless it states raw, most honey is heated to 160 for pasturization. It can still contain botulism spores after pasturization but it is pasturized.



Good to know, I didn't know honey got pasturized. Thanks !


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Feb 19, 2013)

melstan775 said:


> Good to know, I didn't know honey got pasturized. Thanks !



In the US it does. If I ever go to Europe I am gonna have to make sure I have my epi pen. I love honey.


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## Maythorn (Feb 19, 2013)

Marilyna said:


> Stop telling people what's in it.  Most don't really care.  At least that's my experience.  I have sold for a total of about 5 years (but been out of it for past 6 years).  I found a few looked at the label, but almost never questioned what was on it.  The others never even looked at the ingredients.  I have always used tallow, and have never had anyone question it at all.
> 
> Every now and then, I would be asked if my soaps were all natural.  I would just say they mostly are, except for some of the colors and fragrances.  Then they would go ahead and buy it!
> 
> Also, the whole thing about oils & fats doesn't sound appealing anyway.  Ours soaps are not oil & fats - they're a whole new substance - soap - after the chemical reaction takes place.


 
Well put.  And never be apologetic for using lard or tallow.  If you deep down don't feel good about them, go all-vegetable and be done with it.  I can't ever remember studying the ingredients on a bar of soap til I began making it.  I would buy ones with oatmeal or aloe because they sounded good.  The rest was a mystery to me and liking the soap depended on scent, how nice it lathered and treated my skin.


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## AngelMomma (Feb 19, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> And my mom-in-law gets "the vapors" at the mention of coconut oil


 

I don't understand why someone would not like coconut oil?


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## CaliChan (Feb 19, 2013)

AngelMomma said:


> I don't understand why someone would not like coconut oil?



People used to think it was connected to heart disease


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## WallFlower (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't think most people hate lard because it comes from animals. Most people don't like the idea of lard being in their soap because all they have ever heard about it for their whole lives is that it's bad for you and cheap. Whereas shea butter is a real attention getter, people like shea butter because all they have heard about it are really good things. Whether or not they are (i've heard shea can cause allergic reactions in quite a few people) it's just about what they have heard most of their lives through media and their friends.

I'm no vegetarian/vegan, I tried several times but it's near impossible for me. I make my soaps without animal products. Trying to EAT vegan = difficult/near impossible. Making vegan SOAP = easy + I am including more people in my market if I were to sell it. I don't sell it, but when/if I do I'd be making a larger customer base for myself. Plus if I give it as a gift at least I know they will use it. I also try to stay away from stuff I know are common allergy ingredients, but that proves to be difficult (e.g. the shea butter).

Thats just my logic. Call me a hypocrite, but I think it's better for sales/gifts.


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## DWinMadison (Feb 20, 2013)

All good points Wallflower. Many will buy soap because it does NOT have animal products, but nobody will say " I want a soap with extra dead animals in it."  Are there inherent drawbacks to NOT using animal byproducts in soap?  Doesn't it raise the cost?


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## nebetmiw (Feb 20, 2013)

Funny thing is all these people will use store bought soap without knowing that they have AO's or CO ect.


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## Crocoturtle (Feb 20, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> All good points Wallflower. Many will buy soap because it does NOT have animal products, but nobody will say " I want a soap with extra dead animals in it."  Are there inherent drawbacks to NOT using animal byproducts in soap?  Doesn't it raise the cost?


 I don't know, call it a Bacon soap and people will come running!


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## Marilyna (Feb 20, 2013)

WallFlower said:


> Thats just my logic. Call me a hypocrite, but I think it's better for sales/gifts.


 
Hey Wallflower, 

You're no hypocrite!  I totally understand the wisdom of making all vegetable soap.  You're right, all people can use it, so why not? 

If I lived in an area or had a lot of friends who were vegans, I would go that route, too.  I haven't run into many (I can't think of anyone, but some may have read my label and moved on without saying anything), so I go with the formula I like.  And yes, because it's cheaper.


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## AlchemyandAshes (Feb 20, 2013)

I think calling someone a "hypocrite" because they eat meat but choose to make all vegetable soap is a bit harsh, and frankly, quite offensive. 

There are lots of usable and edible parts to "food animals" that most animal-fat-soapers wouldn't eat, like pig ears, pigs feet, cow tongue, cow stomach and brain...should I say that they're wasteful because they aren't using all the useful parts of that animal in their personal life? Do they know exactly where their lard or tallow is coming from, and that the meat they eat is directly related to the fats they soap? Just as there are nasty little secrets in the vegetable oil industry (specifically Palm, but also the tainting of Olive Oil), there are plenty of dirty little secrets in the animal fats world.

I was raised in a family of avid hunters, and my grandfather and two uncles are (retired now) butchers. I have helped butcher hogs and deer, and eaten a variety of meats...whether I liked it or not (Dad!). My dad uses as much of the animal as he can, or finds someone else that can. He makes jerky, sausage, ground meats...uses bone and antler to make Native American knives, beads, necklaces, etc...the hides go to a local taxidermist. My family are meat-eaters. I, however, could take it or leave it, depending on the day and the meal. If it were up to me,  I would create a new eating style word: Carbegetarian (carbs & veggies, please). I call my sons "meatatarians" because they would be happy to just eat meat for meals.
But I only soap vegetable oils.
I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrite, but...
I never bash animal oil soapers, or those of you that use fragrance oils or oxides. My only issue is those that use lab created scents and colors calling their soap "all natural". If you are using lab created scent and color, its not "all natural" in my opinion...but that's a different thread...
My soap business has been successful, even here in the south with a bunch of meat eaters. I don't promote my veggie soaps as "better than" animal fats. I don't tell people that if they use synthetically scented or colored products that their arms will fall off. No one has ever asked me if my Palm oil is sustainable, but they have asked if they contain animal products because they're looking for all vegetable based. The only animal product that I get requests for is Goats Milk soap, which I don't make (I use Coconut Milk).

I'm okay with not pleasing _everyone_.
If I made animal based soaps, _someone_ would be offended by that. If I make all veggie soaps, _someone_ may call me a hypocrite because I eat meat. If I use essential oils, _someone_ has heard they're dangerous. If I use fragrance oils, _someone_ will complain that they cause cancer. I could go on and on, but I'm sure you get my point...you can't please everyone.

And as for "just don't tell them what's in there"...if we're talking hypocritical...isn't that what soapers complain about commercial companies doing?
If the ingredients you use to soap are safe and effective, why not blatantly state them?


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## Marilyna (Feb 20, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> And as for "just don't tell them what's in there"...if we're talking hypocritical...isn't that what soapers complain about commercial companies doing?
> If the ingredients you use to soap are safe and effective, why not blatantly state them?


 
Alchemy,

I wasn't saying that anyone should hide what's in their soap.  I fully label mine.  I was just saying to quit going around talking about it if people are put off by it.  Don't bring it up unless asked.  And in fact, I was kind of making a joke.  I guess it sounded harsher than I intended.


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## DWinMadison (Feb 20, 2013)

nebetmiw said:


> Funny thing is all these people will use store bought soap without knowing that they have AO's or CO ect.



So true!  We all put undue faith in both govt. regulators like USDA and FDA as well as large corporations to "take care" of us. Never mind that the guy who made your pizza doesn't wash his hands. It's Pizza Hut so it must be ok!


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## DWinMadison (Feb 20, 2013)

Please, please!  We all get along so well here.  I didn't mean to start a family squabble. I don't think anyone meant anything offensive. My wife's a vegetarian. I eat Atkins. There's room for all.


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## Nevada (Feb 20, 2013)

is this soap label following the rules? 
Adovia Natural Dead Sea Mud Soap - Great for Eczema, Psoriasis or Acne!


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## lizflowers42 (Feb 20, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> There's room for all.



:clap:


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## AlchemyandAshes (Feb 20, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> Never mind that the guy who made your pizza doesn't wash his hands. It's Pizza Hut so it must be ok!


_What?!?! :shock:
Teenage boys making my pizza don't wash their grubby, filthy, puberty-laden hands? 
I just can't believe that!_
If only that were enough to keep me from eating out... :lolno:
(My husband worked for Pizza Hut while he was in college when I met him...luckily he's a bit OCD and has a hygiene obsession, so I'm sure he -obsessively- washed his hands before making a pizza...and lucky for him, he married a clean-freak-soapmaker...)

P.S. The word hypocrite is offensive...there's no other way to mean it, or to take it, but to be offensive. That's where the thread went awry...


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## Marilyna (Feb 20, 2013)

She was calling herself a hypocrite.  I don't think she meant to offend anyone.


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## AngelMomma (Feb 20, 2013)

I find it increasingly disturbing how most people just take it for granted that anything packaged is "GREAT".  The more I read about products across the board, from food, gardening, cleaning products and of course now soap........it makes me much more aware.  Yet at the same time I don't want to live in constant fear, there is a balance for me.  Over the last few years we have changed  alot of things in our household.  I am sure there will be more changes to come.

Funny enough before I started soaping I would have never questioned the soap I happened to see at good old WM last night.  The label says "African Black Soap".  Yet it is creamy white.  All I could do was shake my head and laugh.  Once again that lets me know that no matter how much EASIER it is for me to just TRUST the pre-packaged products, I have to be aware they are probably lying or hiding something.  ALL BECAUSE OF THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR!


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## Thistle Creek Honey (Feb 20, 2013)

There really isn’t any FDA labeling requirements when it comes to processing honey (Raw VS. Processed).  Honey from the US or from China can range anywhere from comb pulled from the hive, crushed and all parts (honey, wax, bee parts, etec…) poured into a bottle all the way to honey that is heated over 150 degrees, combined with sugar syrup and micro-filtered.  Many commercial honey packages like to heat their honey above 90 and filter out most/all of the pollen since pollen is a major contributor to honey crystallization.  A lot of farmers market honey (and ours) is only lightly filtered to remove bees/wax and only heated to the same temp that exist in the hive, so no damage done to the honey.


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## DWinMadison (Feb 20, 2013)

How about peanut oil?  Once it sopanifies does it still produce reactions for those with peanut allergies.  I would never use it as a main oil...just maybe a filler at no more than 15% of the total recipe.  My go-to oils are palm, coconut & olive, followed  usually by GV Shortening and always castor.  Then I usually choose from canola, grapeseed, safflower....whatever soft oil Kroger might have on sale.


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## Badger (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't think I would risk using peanut oil personally, I have a friend that is deathly allergic to them and I know it is a really common allergy.  I am not sure how the chemical process would change the possible allergic reactions, but seems risky to me.


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## new12soap (Feb 20, 2013)

I just learned today that any refined oil has been stripped of the proteins that cause allergic reactions.  According to the research, refined oil can usually be safely consumed even by allergic individuals. I am not personally allergic to peanuts, and I am NOT advocating running right out and drinking any, I am just saying that based on that information I *think* it would be unlikely to be a problem in soap.  ALWAYS label it accurately and let others decide for themselves, too.


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## MaitriBB (Feb 20, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> I think calling someone a "hypocrite" because they eat meat but choose to make all vegetable soap is a bit harsh, and frankly, quite offensive.


 
I believe what they have been saying is that people who eat meat but won't use soap that has animal fats in it are hypocritical, not people who *make* soap without animal fats.  

This has been a great discussion!


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## Maythorn (Feb 20, 2013)

I wonder where people got being turned off from aos, maybe from vegetable soapers who say stuff on the subject to get more sales?  It's just a thought.  And I forgot,  If something's cheap it can't possibly be good.  Women really seem to fall prey to this.  Just go into a dept store and see how much creams cost that are supposed to make you look like your senior picture again.  They don't really push soaps of any kind I notice, although there might be a $25 bar here and there to go with a skin care line.  Just cleansers mostly and those will have unpronouceable ingredients you might as well not bother reading.  Dove is still really super popular with women who never bought handmade or maybe the did and they still want Dove for the scent and 1/4 cleansing cream.


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## DWinMadison (Feb 20, 2013)

Yeah..... What exactly is "1/4 cleansing cream" anyway?  Isn't that French for "really soft bar that will dissolve twice as fast so you can buy more?"


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## DeeAnna (Feb 20, 2013)

WallFlower said:


> I don't think most people hate lard because it comes from animals. Most people don't like the idea of lard being in their soap because all they have ever heard about it for their whole lives is that it's bad for you and cheap....



Yep, I think you're right about that. I would also add that lard might have a poor reputation from the memories of the harsh lard and lye soap many of our grandmothers (or g-grandmothers) made. 

My grandma, who had been a home ec teacher as a young unmarried woman, made soap from lard she rendered from hogs my grandfather raised. (She used store bought lye, by the way.) She used her homemade soap only for the laundry --  and bought Palmolive for the bath. Isn't that sad that she could have easily made a lye-and-lard soap that would have been wonderful for personal use too?

--DeeAnna


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## paillo (Feb 20, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> I was raised in a family of avid hunters, and my grandfather and two uncles are (retired now) butchers. I have helped butcher hogs and deer, and eaten a variety of meats...whether I liked it or not (Dad!). My dad uses as much of the animal as he can, or finds someone else that can. He makes jerky, sausage, ground meats...uses bone and antler to make Native American knives, beads, necklaces, etc...the hides go to a local taxidermist. My family are meat-eaters. I, however, could take it or leave it, depending on the day and the meal. If it were up to me,  I would create a new eating style word: Carbegetarian (carbs & veggies, please). I call my sons "meatatarians" because they would be happy to just eat meat for meals.



Shawnee, what an admirable family of ethical hunters you come from! Love to hear that kind of respect for the animals that are killed.


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## Crocoturtle (Feb 20, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> I think calling someone a "hypocrite" because they eat meat but choose to make all vegetable soap is a bit harsh, and frankly, quite offensive.


 

I'm not talking about making soap. I'm saying someone who would stand up from a meal of bacon and then say "eww, I'm not washing myself with lard soap." It's soap, it's not lard anymore.


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## Maythorn (Feb 20, 2013)

Crocoturtle said:


> I'm not talking about making soap. I'm saying someone who would stand up from a meal of bacon and then say "eww, I'm not washing myself with lard soap." It's soap, it's not lard anymore.


 
Yeah that would be. And a delicious breakfast at that.  I don't know I never thought badly of lard.  I think my parents might have cooked with it sometimes.  Biscuits maybe.  When I bought some I just remember thinking how clean and white it looked.  Tallow has a better reputation and that makes no sense to me unless people just like cows better than pigs.  They associate pigs with llving in filthy styes.  Then why love bacon and pork chops? 

I went to a fair one time and there was an outspoken soaper there with a booth and she would say loudly, "Yep, all vegetable, no animal fats in these bars.  No, ma'am (or sir), I won't use them."  That puts lard and tallow in a very bad light with people shopping at a fair.  What if there had been another soaper's booth with animal fat soaps.


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Feb 20, 2013)

Maythorn said:


> Yeah that would be. And a delicious breakfast at that.  I don't know I never thought badly of lard.  I think my parents might have cooked with it sometimes.  Biscuits maybe.  When I bought some I just remember thinking how clean and white it looked.  Tallow has a better reputation and that makes no sense to me unless people just like cows better than pigs.  They associate pigs with llving in filthy styes.  Then why love bacon and pork chops?
> 
> I went to a fair one time and there was an outspoken soaper there with a booth and she would say loudly, "Yep, all vegetable, no animal fats in these bars.  No, ma'am (or sir), I won't use them."  That puts lard and tallow in a very bad light with people shopping at a fair.  What if there had been another soaper's booth with animal fat soaps.



I plan on making both types. One for medieval fairs, and the rest for mundanes ( modern folk at regular fairs). I want to have the realistic experience of doing so. I am a medievalist. That means trying to recreate the techniques of the Middle Ages. If I don't use the ingredients they had. Then how can I say my product is as close as possible to the product produced back then.


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## Crocoturtle (Feb 20, 2013)

Maythorn said:


> Yeah that would be. And a delicious breakfast at that.  I don't know I never thought badly of lard.  I think my parents might have cooked with it sometimes.  Biscuits maybe.  When I bought some I just remember thinking how clean and white it looked.  Tallow has a better reputation and that makes no sense to me unless people just like cows better than pigs.  They associate pigs with llving in filthy styes.  Then why love bacon and pork chops?
> 
> I went to a fair one time and there was an outspoken soaper there with a booth and she would say loudly, "Yep, all vegetable, no animal fats in these bars.  No, ma'am (or sir), I won't use them."  That puts lard and tallow in a very bad light with people shopping at a fair.  What if there had been another soaper's booth with animal fat soaps.


 
Yeah, that's really not fair. I made lard yesterday from the fat of my pasture raised organic pig. Not some filthy animal and it would have been a total waste to throw all that tissue away without using it. I wish I had a dog or something to feed the cracklins to. The only parts of our pig we didn't really use were the lungs, the snout and the tail. And yes, my friend ate the heart tonight.

And yeah to reiterate. Most of the time, I really only have access to vegetable oils so I don't think it's hypocritical to like only buy one brand, I just think it's hypocritical to waste.


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## Maythorn (Feb 20, 2013)

Medeival sounds really fun.  It reminds me of the handmaiden image and soap in chunks maybe a little rough or unevenly cut?  It also brings to mind lard, tallow and olive oil especially.

Crocoturtle I bet all you make is very pure and good.  I lived on a farm for a short time and I was terrible because I got attached to every animal and named them and could never kill one so that makes me a complete hypocrite.  I eat storebought meat and fish and somehow I feel "removed" from the harsh reality.  I was much better off at a dairy and I think that's why I love milk soaps.  Milk or cream anything!


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## Second Impression (Feb 21, 2013)

new12soap said:


> I just learned today that any refined oil has been stripped of the proteins that cause allergic reactions. According to the research, refined oil can usually be safely consumed even by allergic individuals. I am not personally allergic to peanuts, and I am NOT advocating running right out and drinking any, I am just saying that based on that information I *think* it would be unlikely to be a problem in soap. ALWAYS label it accurately and let others decide for themselves, too.


 
I searched but couldn't find anything, do you have a source? Really interested in what you found. Just from what you said here, it just doesn't sound right at all. I'm going to assume the research only looked specifically at peanut protein allergies and the oil was refined in a lab setting, I highly doubt food grade refined peanut oil is processed thoroughly enough to denature or remove all trace of protein. Even then, allergies and immunology are tricky and so, so complicated.

As to whether an allergic individual could still react to a soap made from an oil they are allergic to, yes and no. It depends on a lot of factors like whether they are dermatologically allergic, how sensitive they are if they are just allergic to the oil or any byproduct of that oil. 

ITA with you though when you say to fully label and leave it up to the consumer to decide.

Oh, and while researching your post, I came across articles saying that it's common for olive oil to be cut with peanut oil. GAH! It does leave me really curious about your post though because if it's really that prevelent, and my guess about food grade peanut oils not being refined to the point of being innocuous, then I would expect more people with peanut allergies to be allergic to various "olive oils". roblem:


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## Kansas Farm Girl (Feb 21, 2013)

I found some things about peanut oil here http://www.peanut-institute.org/eating-well/allergy/peanut-oil-no-allergens.asp 
The fact is that highly refined peanut oil is different from peanuts,  peanut butter, and peanut flour when it comes to allergy. This is  because most peanut oil undergoes a refining process, in which it is  purified, refined, bleached, and deodorized. When peanut oil is  correctly processed and becomes highly refined, the proteins in the oil,  which are the components in the oil that can cause allergic reaction,  are removed. This makes the peanut oil allergen-free! The vast majority  of peanut oil that is used in foodservice and by consumers in the U.S.  is processed and is considered highly refined. 

This is put out by peanut promoters, so do we take it with a grain of salt?

The WebMD site says this http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...redientId=483&activeIngredientName=PEANUT OIL 

Peanut oil is safe for most people when taken by mouth, applied to the skin, or used rectally in medicinal amounts.  
*Special Precautions & Warnings:*

*Pregnancy and breast-feeding*:  Peanut oil is safe in amounts found in food, but there’s not enough  information to know if it’s safe in the larger amounts that are used as  medicine. Stick to normal food amounts if you are pregnant or  breast-feeding.

*Allergy to peanuts, soybeans, and related plants*: Peanut oil can cause serious allergic reactions in people who are allergic to peanuts, soybeans, and other members of the Fabaceae plant family.

Since I SF, even if saponification does change the oil enough not to cause a reaction, I don't think I will replace any of my AOs with it, or any other oil I currently use. 

I don't think most people realize store bought soap has AOs or lye in it. Many people are concerned with "lye soap" because historically maybe it was harsh, depending on who made it and if they had ever heard of SF. If they do see the list of ingredients for those soaps they do not recognize what "sodium tallowate" really is - the result of the chemical reaction between tallow and lye.

Can't please them all, so I only try to please those I love.


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## new12soap (Feb 21, 2013)

Second Impression said:


> I searched but couldn't find anything, do you have a source? Really interested in what you found. Just from what you said here, it just doesn't sound right at all. I'm going to assume the research only looked specifically at peanut protein allergies and the oil was refined in a lab setting, I highly doubt food grade refined peanut oil is processed thoroughly enough to denature or remove all trace of protein. Even then, allergies and immunology are tricky and so, so complicated.
> 
> As to whether an allergic individual could still react to a soap made from an oil they are allergic to, yes and no. It depends on a lot of factors like whether they are dermatologically allergic, how sensitive they are if they are just allergic to the oil or any byproduct of that oil.
> 
> ...


 
My initial source was a phone conversation with a major oil supplier. I had never heard that before (as I said, I do not have that particular issue so I am not up to speed on allergens), so I went to trusty old Google.  It would seem that there have been a number of studies indicating that the refining process does remove the component that causes an allergic reaction, but more studies are needed to determine an acceptable threshold. If you read here http://www.fda.gov/food/labelingnut...complianceregulatoryinformation/ucm106108.htm go to E. Allergenic Foods of Concern, 2. Food Ingredients, third paragraph. There is reference to food grade refined peanut and soy oils, as opposed to unrefined oils from known allergens.  Interesting stuff.

At any rate, I think that if you are using refined oils, then totally changing their chemical composition into soap, then using that soap topically and rinsing it off... MY TOTALLY UNLEARNED OPINION is that it seems _unlikely _to cause a reaction. If I had any personal concerns about myself or my family I would think that is a good starting point for a conversation with an immunologist, but as far as sales or gifts of products again I will provide ingredients and let each one judge for themselves.


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## AngelMomma (Feb 21, 2013)

I read the same thing on a menu food info pamphlet from Chick-fil-a.  I had asked for one to see the ingredients as to avoid any wheat.  It said that they fry all their food in peanut oil and that it won't cause any allergic reactions.  My daughter has a school friend that has a bad peanut allergy and she eats fried foods there all the time.


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## Badger (Feb 21, 2013)

Moonshea Botanicals said:


> I plan on making both types. One for medieval fairs, and the rest for mundanes ( modern folk at regular fairs). I want to have the realistic experience of doing so. I am a medievalist. That means trying to recreate the techniques of the Middle Ages. If I don't use the ingredients they had. Then how can I say my product is as close as possible to the product produced back then.



I am in a medieval recreation group (SCA) myself and would be interested to know if you have any period recipes that you have found.  I actually went to a soap making class several years ago at a medieval event, and have wanted to try it since before then, but was not until now that I started it.

I would love to hear more about how you incorporate your medieval techniques into soap making.


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Feb 21, 2013)

I am in the SCA also. I have not tried to convert any of the recipes I have just yet, but I would like to try to do so in the future. Right now I'd like to get the modern process down first.


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## Badger (Feb 21, 2013)

Nice to meet someone else in the SCA.  If I find any recipes that look promising, I will pass them on to you.


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Feb 21, 2013)

Too cool! I will do the same. We aren't too horribly far away from each other too. Lol I'm in the Long Island southern, NY area.


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## DWinMadison (Feb 21, 2013)

Maythorn said:


> Medeival sounds really fun.  It reminds me of the handmaiden image and soap in chunks maybe a little rough or unevenly cut?  It also brings to mind lard, tallow and olive oil especially.
> 
> Crocoturtle I bet all you make is very pure and good.  I lived on a farm for a short time and I was terrible because I got attached to every animal and named them and could never kill one so that makes me a complete hypocrite.  I eat store bought meat and fish and somehow I feel "removed" from the harsh reality.  I was much better off at a dairy and I think that's why I love milk soaps.  Milk or cream anything!



If I may wax philosophical for a minute, there is an interesting social and spiritual principle at play here.  The social principle is that as we remove ourselves further and further from the sources of our food, we have less and less appreciation for how precious it is.   My grandparents didn't make pets of their livestock any more than the tomatoes they grew, but they knew how hard it was to produce both, and they treated them both with respect.  Let's face it you don't find many vegetarian farmers, although my grandparents ate meat sparingly and appreciated the fact that they had it or anything else during hard times.

Spiritually...well that's a long discussion probably not appropriate for this board, but suffice it to say, when you had to kill your best lamb to make atonement for your crappy sins, it made you think twice about how precious life is and that sin/disobedience has a cost associated with it. [/end_sermon] Irrespective of your faith journey, I think it is honorable, if you have to kill an animal, to waste as little of it as possible.

One of the things I like about making soap is that it puts me back in touch with nature in an increasingly synthetic world.  Now I think I'll make myself a cup of tea and ponder life for a minute or two before I answer all these emails.


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## Ruthie (Feb 21, 2013)

DWinMadison said:


> Spiritually...well that's a long discussion probably not appropriate for this board, but suffice it to say, when you had to kill your best lamb to make atonement for your crappy sins, it made you think twice about how precious life is and that sin/disobedience has a cost associated with it. [/end_sermon] Irrespective of your faith journey, I think it is honorable, if you have to kill an animal, to waste as little of it as possible.
> 
> One of the thinks I like about making soap is that it puts me back in touch with nature in an increasingly synthetic world. Now I think I'll make myself a cup of tea and ponder life for a minute or two before I answer all these emails.


 
Shawnee alluded to this, but living in Oklahoma, society here has undertones of the Native American culture, and particularly when one hunts to  fill one's freezer (such as deer, etc.) honor is given to that living thing.  It is NOT praying to the animal, but honoring it for what it had to give up for you.  This carries over into a few people here actually preferring AOs in soaps, since I am using some parts of the animal that might otherwise be wasted.


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## CaliChan (Feb 21, 2013)

Kansas Farm Girl said:


> I don't think most people realize store bought soap has AOs or lye in it. Many people are concerned with "lye soap" because historically maybe it was harsh, depending on who made it and if they had ever heard of SF. If they do see the list of ingredients for those soaps they do not recognize what "sodium tallowate" really is - the result of the chemical reaction between tallow and lye.



Yep, My mom got all freaked out. she asked me one day asking if i was using lye in my soaps because her boyfriend refused to use my soaps till he knew. then i had to explain to them both that all soap has lye in it commercial or not, its impossible to make soap without it. and that as long as there is a left over superfat there is no reason to worry.


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## sagehill (Feb 21, 2013)

melstan775 said:


> Farm fresh milk needs to be pasturized to have a shelf life, so if you didn't have a processed milk, your soap would be rancid inside a week.


Whooops, can't let this go by without a clarifying comment. 

I raise goats and learned to make soap fifteen years ago using fresh goat milk instead of water. Most of the soaps I sold up to ten years ago used 100% fresh milk and none of them ever became rancid. I quit soaping when I moved to another farm in Michigan ten years ago, and restarted again last November when I finally ran out of soap. 

The other day I rediscovered two bars of my favorite soap in the basement, goat milk carrot soap made ten years ago that don't even have DOS. I tried a bar... it's hard as a rock and lathers beautifully. The scent's pretty much gone, though, as one would expect with only essential oils.
















Of course, I may be biased, since for 15 years the only dairy I consume and sell has been fresh milk, both from my Jersey cow and dairy goats. I go without rather than drink horrible store stuff.


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## chicklet (Feb 21, 2013)

I use fresh raw cow's milk in many of my soaps.  I make yogurt for my honey-yogurt soap and cultured buttermilk for several buttermilks soaps.  In one I just use the raw milk.  Pasteurization does extend the shelf life of commercial milk.  When I make yogurt, I pasteurize the milk but not at the high temps commercial dairies use.  Raw milk that is unhomogenized doesn't really go bad - it just changes forms due to the lactic acid.  Even when it smells bad it's still fine for cooking, making yogurt or buttermilk, etc.  When commercial milk goes bad, it's BAD because of the homogenization which breaks down the fat molecules to the point that they can't turn into anything else but rotten milk and it has to be thrown out.


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## Amybell (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm pretty new to this all, so take it for what it's worth, but here's my two cents...

While we know the process behind making soap, the average consumer does not.  They see "lard" in soap, and all they can think of is slathering lard n their skin.  Or they remember the take-your-hide-off soap that their grandmother used to make.  Just like they see "sodium hydroxide" or "lye" and think that they are putting dangerous chemicals on their skin.  WE know that properly made soap is not caustic.  WE know that the chemical reaction uses it up, turns it into soap, and is necessary to create the finished product.  They don't.  Just like they don't really know that the "lard" will get saponified and little--if-any, depending on saponification and superfat--will be left on the skin.  It's the idea of perception.  And perception can be a very powerful thing--especially in business.  How do you combat it?  One way is to know your product.  Being educated as a maker and a seller goes a long way when people ask questions.  Another way is by word choice.  If people are cautious about lye in your market, stating "saponified oils of x,x, and x" might help solve that problem, along with having a thorough understanding of the process so you can talk about it as necessary.  I honestly (and this my personal opinion) don't support just using "natural fats" in the ingredient panel.  It's such a broad term, and it makes it difficult for people who live certain lifestyles--whether it be by social choice, like veganism, or religious choice, like kosher or halal--to make mindful choices about what they buy and use.  If someone doesn't want to use soap because it has lard or tallow in it, then that is their choice, and they should be allowed to exercise that choice.  Ambiguous labeling interferes with that choice, in my opinion.

It's easy as a maker to say, "this is the way I want to do it, and I don't care what anyone else thinks."  But once you hang your hat out for business, you don't have the luxury of not caring what the consumer thinks.  Not if you really want to sell your product and be successful.  Unless you don't really need/want the income, in which case, you can do whatever you want.    None of that, however, means you have to compromise what you value about your product in order to be in business, but it DOES mean that you need to take into consideration what your market (local or otherwise) wants or expects in a product.  Sometimes it means making some changes to your product or price; sometimes it can mean finding creative ways to market your product effectively, identifying your market, and conveying the message that you want/need to reach your market.  If you want people to buy your product, you absolutely have to take your market into consideration and act/market accordingly.

I'm new to soapmaking, but I'm not new to business.  Up until the last year, I've spent most of my adult life running a photography business.  That doesn't make me an expert in anything, but it does give me a little extra insight into market realities.  I'm sure I'm not the only one.  And again, all of this is all just my very humble opinion anyway.


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## MaitriBB (Feb 22, 2013)

^ AmyBell is wise


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## sagehill (Feb 22, 2013)

chicklet said:


> Raw milk that is unhomogenized doesn't really go bad - it just changes forms due to the lactic acid.  Even when it smells bad it's still fine for cooking, making yogurt or buttermilk, etc.  When commercial milk goes bad, it's BAD because of the homogenization which breaks down the fat molecules to the point that they can't turn into anything else but rotten milk and it has to be thrown out.


I meant to say all that, but I forgot. lol


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## nebetmiw (Feb 22, 2013)

Taking the time to talk with customers is worth your time.  For those that get eww when they see certain ingridents once you explain that all commercial soap has them they tend to get over it.  AO oils and lye are the most people get that ewww about.  But if you show them what is in commerical soap yours will look alot better.  After all who wants to wash their skin with harsh detregents.  Ewwww


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## Relle (Mar 6, 2013)

Crocoturtle said:


> unless it states raw, most honey is heated to 160 for pasturization. It can still contain botulism spores after pasturization but it is pasturized.


 
I was speaking to an apiarist on Sunday regarding the above and it all depends what country you are in for pasteurization. Here the honey is not pasteurized and he said the goodness in the honey is destroyed over 40 degrees. The honey labelled here does not state raw honey, it just says 100% honey on the jar. As this is a worldwide forum I think you have to be aware that this information may not be relevant to the country you are in.


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## nebetmiw (Mar 6, 2013)

Another thing a few years back we had a man on here that only soaped with soured goats milk.  He said it felt alot better than regular raw goats milk.  So yes you can use raw soured milk for soap.  After all it all gets soapified by the lye.

Some people have strange ideas when it comes to soap making.  I.e. thing have to be pastrized or food ingredints survive the soaping process to pass on minerals and vitamins to your skin.  Most do not even survive the cooking process which is lower temp than making soap with lye and it gelling.


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## ZandarKoad (Mar 6, 2013)

I like to draw analogies when discussing chemical compounds.  For example, would any of you drink a mixture of two of the most flammable, explosive substances known to man? Of course not, right?  Wrong. It's called water.  Incidentally, the chemical process that changes hydrogen and oxygen into water (an explosion) is exothermic like the saponification process.  After the heat dissipates, so long as all reactants were used up, what's left is totally stable and harmless. 

So many people still believe that apple seeds contain cyanide too, and that soap contains dangerous lye, etc.


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