# Calendula petals - use or not?



## sheilaohga (Aug 28, 2015)

*Calendula whole stem etc - use or not?*

Hi, as a beginner in soap making I have a lot to learn.
I just received my new pack of dried whole calendulas.
I know I will use the petals to spread on top or grind them and use on my soaps but do I grind the whole flower with the stems etc too?
I mean, the whole flower thingy are dark colored and also looks very harsh to be used on the soap. 
But then it looks a lot of waste to be thrown away.
So is it ok to use the whole lot, fine ground?


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## navigator9 (Aug 28, 2015)

I have used petals only. I ordered once, a batch that looks like yours and required a lot of sorting through, cleaning and getting rid of the schmutz. After that, I ordered petals only, much easier. Calendula is one of the few botanicals that don't turn brown in soap.


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## not_ally (Aug 28, 2015)

I don't know if you could use it ground, it looks as if might still be scratchy.  Maybe remove the petals to use in soap (I am w/Nav, it does look like a lot of work, though) and infuse the rest?  From this site, it might make a nice infused oil that you could use in other ways, not sure if the good properties would survive the lye.

http://mountainroseblog.com/healing-calendula/


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## shunt2011 (Aug 28, 2015)

I too only use the petals.  But that's all I've ever ordered as well.  The whole flowers looked like way too much work for me.


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## rparrny (Aug 28, 2015)

Calendula is so healing to the skin...the petals are an okay addition but why not make your soap more healing instead?
If your making CP soap, cover the flowers in olive oil, set out in the sun in a covered jar (some herbalists will disagree and say keep it in the dark) shake it every few days then in 3-4 weeks strain and use as part of the OO in your CP soap
OR
Cover in glycerin and do as above and use the strained glycerite in you MP glycerin soap.
Now you have a truly healing bar!


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## not_ally (Aug 28, 2015)

But do the healing properties survive the lye, R, in your opinion?  It was my impression (without knowing much about the actual chemical interactions) that lye destroyed the otherwise desirable/operational compounds in most botanicals.  Maybe it would be better in MP (since the base is already saponified) although you pretty much max out on 1 TB per lb of base for liquid additions there, would that be enough to make a difference, do you think?  I really don't know much about this stuff, so it is pretty interesting.  Also, I would like to add certain things if they are even somewhat likely to work.


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## rparrny (Aug 28, 2015)

not_ally said:


> But do the healing properties survive the lye, R, in your opinion? It was my impression (without knowing much about the actual chemical interactions) that lye destroyed the otherwise desirable/operational compounds in most botanicals. Maybe it would be better in MP (since the base is already saponified) although you pretty much max out on 1 TB per lb of base for liquid additions there, would that be enough to make a difference, do you think? I really don't know much about this stuff, so it is pretty interesting. Also, I would like to add certain things if they are even somewhat likely to work.


In a glycerite I would say yes, in a lye soap I would add an ounce or two like an EO after trace. Before trace you're probably right it would get eaten alive.


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## not_ally (Aug 28, 2015)

Thanks, I think I will try one of the things I was thinking about in MP, that seems like the best bet ...


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## kumudini (Aug 28, 2015)

hmmm, I was thinking about the lye monster this morning. We know that it reacts with fats and some sugars and most likely with a range of chemicals in the additives we put in soaps. But what really are the beneficial compounds in those additives and which of them react with lye and which are unaltered at the end of saponification? does the heat produced and sustained for min few hours destroy everything beneficial? I wonder if there are any studies looking into these aspects of saponification.

coming to the original question, I would not grind everything up and put it in soap. I use only petals, ground up in my soap. I love the light golden color the calendula infused oils impart in my soap. I quickly work to get the majority of the flower bases and twigs out and infuse only petals. I think this waste is worth it. Next time I will only order petals.


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## not_ally (Aug 28, 2015)

Vkumudini said:


> But what really are the beneficial compounds in those additives and which of them react with lye and which are unaltered at the end of saponification? .



That is the thing about additives w/CP, even at trace.  Since most of the saponification will take place after trace - not sure how much, surely 90+ % - I would think most everything would get consumed, even adding at trace.  That is why I like the idea of trying w/MP, where there will be no more ravages (I think) from the lye monster.


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## dixiedragon (Aug 28, 2015)

I made the same mistake! I pulled off the petal and I saved the other bits for infusing (I strained them out).


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## Dahila (Aug 28, 2015)

I make oil insfusion with it and use for lotions, and soap)


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## green soap (Aug 28, 2015)

I use only the petals, and I grow calendula.  The flower center has the seeds, so you could grow your own calendula with what you do not infuse.  They are very easy to grow.


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## IrishLass (Aug 28, 2015)

I've used calendula petals (just the petals) in my soap only once. It was to make a soap that SoapQueen demonstrated on her site a few yeas ago. The soap looked absolutely fabulous, but I absolutely hated the texture and feel of the petals in the finished soap. But then again, I'm persnickety that way....kinda like the Princess and the Pea syndrome going on. lol I just hate having leafy botanicals or other chunky things floating around in my soap that interfere with my ultra-smooth & bubbly soapy experience. Plus I hate the thought of such things making their way down into my drainpipes.

I really like the infusing-in-oil idea much better. Color me very skeptical that the medicinal benefits will survive the lye monster- and even if they do, it's not going to be on one's skin long enough to be of be of much benefit I should think (putting it in lotion would be a better plan)- but it might make for a nice color. 



IrishLass


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## kumudini (Aug 28, 2015)

IL, I also dont find whole botanicals in soap very pleasing. I either infuse or grind and sift for the finest powder. The infused oil gives a nice hue to the soap though. 
And I use the infused oil straight on my skin when it needs some extra love. One thing I noted is it lessens minor irritations rather quickly, very soothing. I also used it in my lotion bar batch recently.


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## shunt2011 (Aug 28, 2015)

rparrny said:


> In a glycerite I would say yes, in a lye soap I would add an ounce or two like an EO after trace. Before trace you're probably right it would get eaten alive.


 
Even if you add it after trace it would likely still be eaten more than likely.  Trace has nothing to do with the saponification.  The saponification process is what will eat anything beneficial.  Saponification takes up to 72 hours depending on gel or not gelling your soap.

Sorry about the edit showing on your post.  I hit the wrong button...didn't edit anything though.  :smile:


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## IrishLass (Aug 28, 2015)

Ditto what Shari said. The lye is still very much alive and active at trace. I've read from those who have measured such things say that only about 10% of saponification has actually taken place at that time. That leaves a whopping 90% gobbling action still going on.


IrishLass


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## not_ally (Aug 28, 2015)

This thread points to one of the reasons I still like to make mp.  I started w/it, and did just MP for a couple of years b/c I was afraid of the lye.  I'm glad that I switched, b/c I like CP soap better (much better for 52 yr old skin) but the fact that you are adding stuff post-saponification w/mp just makes certain things easier and better.  

But I'm also glad I started w/MP, I don't think I would have tried it if I had started off w/CP, and it is really nice to know so much about it if I want that option for a given soap.   Plus, clear MP can make such beautiful soap.  

I sometimes wish more CP'ers did MP,  there don't seem to be *that* many of us who really like both and like to gab about the differences at great length (although this is certainly the place to do it, since there are some cross-over folks.)

Sorry, OP, didn't mean to de-rail and I know this is of limited interest to most.


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## LoveOscar (Aug 30, 2015)

I have a book by Soap Queen that has a calendula recipe in it, and she has calendula infused in sweet almond oil, and then presses the petals on top after the soap is poured into the mold.


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## rparrny (Sep 1, 2015)

not_ally said:


> But do the healing properties survive the lye, R, in your opinion?  It was my impression (without knowing much about the actual chemical interactions) that lye destroyed the otherwise desirable/operational compounds in most botanicals.  Maybe it would be better in MP (since the base is already saponified) although you pretty much max out on 1 TB per lb of base for liquid additions there, would that be enough to make a difference, do you think?  I really don't know much about this stuff, so it is pretty interesting.  Also, I would like to add certain things if they are even somewhat likely to work.


In a MP absolutely, in a CP...I initially was skeptical but my rosehip EO survived the lye nicely so I plan on trying it soon.  I grow my own calendula and have some outside curing as we speak...
I never paid attention to the max amounts in a glycerin MP, I remember adding 30cc calendula and 5cc rosehip glycerite to a batch that make about 8 bars and although the rosehip was a bit strong (wildcrafted rugosa rose from a little island only accessible by boat...wonderful medicine from that batch...) the texture was fine.
As to why it survives?  I look around and see jewel weed always growing around poison ivy...the culprit and the cure are usually compatible in some ways.  What is lye?  Hardwood ash...created from fire...calendula a perfect remedy for burns...nature has a way of defying the odds when it comes to natural medicines even though it doesn't make much sense.


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## cmzaha (Sep 1, 2015)

I am with IrishLass when it comes to botanicals in my soap. I do use oatmeal but that is about all. I will use infused calendula in a few soaps, label appeal, but most go into my carrot calendula solid lotion. I really do not feel much if anything will survive the lye monster. If a customer asks me what it will do for the soap, which they do at times, I am honest and tell them, "clean your body, anything else I do not guarantee." I find most like the honesty and will still buy the soap if they like the scent or if someone told them it is magic


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## not_ally (Sep 1, 2015)

rparrny said:


> As to why it survives? ...nature has a way of defying the odds when it comes to natural medicines even though it doesn't make much sense.



I agree w/you on natural medicines making sense/doing good in a way that is not immediately explainable or well-tested, but rather by historical/anecdotal evidence collected over many years.  But I still have doubts about how well the beneficial compounds can survive the lye.  

I don't know much about Chinese medicine (although I thought it was helpful the one time I went to a good practitioner), but do a bit about ayurveda.  There, we use very small amounts of things that have been seen to work well together, in specific ways/combinations over hundreds (thousands?  not sure) of years.  

But they are so small, and the interactions are so specific.  I would expect that the caustic nature of lye would wreak havoc there and that creating a soap w/real ayurvedic properties would be very difficult.  

This is not to say that *your* experiments w/botanicals will not work, I think most people do not even try b/c of the impediments, and many of ones that advertise them as working miracles are the wacko types that may not know that much about them, or how to observe the effects, in the first place.   I hope you keep trying and report back if you find something good.


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## gemsupthepoley (Sep 1, 2015)

I've got some growing in the garden and it seems the only thing for sure is the petals turn the oils yellow!  So that's what I'll do and maybe add some on top for a bonnie pattern!

(Been off line with internet down since the beginning of August...Nice to be back)


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## not_ally (Sep 1, 2015)

Aye, a bonnie pattern (yes, I am making fun of you and EG in an affectionate way, you can feel free to do the same w/my California/Valley Girl speech patterns   Also, I love it when you crazy Scots/Scotch/Scottish folk (what the heck is right?) do that.

Glad that you are back!


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## soapswirl (Sep 1, 2015)

Not_ally - you can call us Scots or Scottish, not Scotch - that's the whisky!

I like calendula petals in a soap for the scrubby texture, but I'm not convinced that they add any further benefit in a soap.


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## Sauboon (Sep 1, 2015)

As far as I know you should only use the petals. You can buy a huge bag of petals only from www.brambleberry.com


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## rparrny (Sep 1, 2015)

not_ally; said:
			
		

> This is not to say that *your* experiments w/botanicals will not work, I think most people do not even try b/c of the impediments, and many of ones that advertise them as working miracles are the wacko types that may not know that much about them, or how to observe the effects, in the first place.   I hope you keep trying and report back if you find something good.


I have used calendula and rosehip in combination to make some really powerful medicine, but it was in salves and compresses.  If I had a bad burn, I wouldn't grab a bar of soap with those ingredients to fix the problem.  That being said, with my recent experience with the rosehip, I would think that a bar with a careful combination of the right fats could be a product that would help to nourish the skin.  Past that I wouldn't have any great hopes but I don't think that is anything to sneeze at either...



cmzaha said:


> I am with IrishLass when it comes to botanicals in my soap. I do use oatmeal but that is about all. I will use infused calendula in a few soaps, label appeal, but most go into my carrot calendula solid lotion. I really do not feel much if anything will survive the lye monster. If a customer asks me what it will do for the soap, which they do at times, I am honest and tell them, "clean your body, anything else I do not guarantee." I find most like the honesty and will still buy the soap if they like the scent or if someone told them it is magic


Well I guess it all depends what you expect it to do...after all a bar of soap is _meant_ to clean the body and that's about it.  My question is; can the addition of botanicals create a bar that does a better job of it.  We use certain fats and oils for conditioning the skin...why?...because it can counteract the caustic and drying action of the lye and other fats and oils.  Why not look for a botanical to do the same thing?  If rosehip can survive the lye...and mine did, albeit it was much weaker for the wear...why can't calendula help to nourish?
Just sayin...


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## spenny92 (Sep 1, 2015)

gemsupthepoley said:


> I've got some growing in the garden and it seems the only thing for sure is the petals turn the oils yellow!  So that's what I'll do and maybe add some on top for a bonnie pattern!
> 
> (Been off line with internet down since the beginning of August...Nice to be back)



Ah, it's nice to hear some Scottish slang again. I'm Scottish but live with my English boyfriend in New Zealand, and I'm terrified that everyone is slowly correcting my little slang quirks out of me! They've even got me pronouncing my Ts in butter - crazy.

RE: Calendula petals... I'm yet to try them, but I bought some soap with the petals on top and they looked super pretty and at least they actually stay the colour they're supposed to!


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## sudsy_kiwi (Sep 2, 2015)

spenny92 said:


> Ah, it's nice to hear some Scottish slang again. I'm Scottish but live with my English boyfriend in New Zealand, and I'm terrified that everyone is slowly correcting my little slang quirks out of me! They've even got me pronouncing my Ts in butter - crazy.
> 
> RE: Calendula petals... I'm yet to try them, but I bought some soap with the petals on top and they looked super pretty and at least they actually stay the colour they're supposed to!



If you feel the need for a wee bit of (kind-sorta) Scottish, you should pop on down to the Edinburgh of the South :smile:  Not that we actually speak with Scottish accents in Dunedin, but we _do_ have a statue of Robbie Burns and we drink a lot ;-)


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## itchyandscratchy (Sep 2, 2015)

*Healing properties and soap*

Hi, I've been battling dermatitis on my hands since I was a teenager, I'm now in my 50's.  I was nursing for many years, now I am a beauty therapist consequently I was always washing my hands followed by steroid creams and moisturizers.  The dermatitis stopped for awhile when I did massage (all those lovely e.o and cold pressed oils), but then kicked in again with the constant hand washing.  I started making soap several years ago and have never looked back.  My hands get a bit dry sometimes when I wash the dishes with commercial washing liquid but I have been dermatitis free for years.  I think that the goodness in cp soaps including the additives are not affected by the lye, bearing in mind soap is to clean not to moisturize.


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## spenny92 (Sep 2, 2015)

sudsy_kiwi said:


> If you feel the need for a wee bit of (kind-sorta) Scottish, you should pop on down to the Edinburgh of the South :smile:  Not that we actually speak with Scottish accents in Dunedin, but we _do_ have a statue of Robbie Burns and we drink a lot ;-)



It's on my to-go list, don't worry! I feel like every second person I meet here is part-Scottish - it's quite nice, actually! Makes me feel like I'm not quite on the other side of the world to home. :mrgreen: 

Hey, did you ever take a look at that Facebook group?


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## rparrny (Sep 2, 2015)

not_ally said:


> This thread points to one of the reasons I still like to make mp.  I started w/it, and did just MP for a couple of years b/c I was afraid of the lye.  I'm glad that I switched, b/c I like CP soap better (much better for 52 yr old skin) but the fact that you are adding stuff post-saponification w/mp just makes certain things easier and better.
> 
> But I'm also glad I started w/MP, I don't think I would have tried it if I had started off w/CP, and it is really nice to know so much about it if I want that option for a given soap.   Plus, clear MP can make such beautiful soap.
> 
> ...


I also started with MP... back in those days before stick blenders, I refused to spend all that time stirring soap to achieve trace.  I still think it has a place in my soap making, especially glycerin soaps.  For adding botanicals you can't beat glycerin and the clarity of it makes such a beautiful bar.  
MPs are a wonderful way to introduce children to the art of soapmaking.  My grandson at 2 is way too young for even an MP...but I have some neighbors...a clan of 4 sisters, ages 6-14 who often come over for "projects", we have made bath salts, canned jams, made challah and pizza from scratch.  They love my soaps and want to learn to make them but with the possible exception of the older teen twins, I'm not comfortable using lye around them.  A MP is a great way to wet the soaping appetite.  We have already made plans to do bath bombs for holiday gifts for teachers and family this fall...I think I will add some MP soaps to the project list now...
Here's a picture of Molly taken a few years ago after our challah project.  She is my favorite...her sisters will pick brownies as a choice for a baking project...Molly picks ...an almond and pear tart...she definitely thinks outside the box...


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## not_ally (Sep 2, 2015)

Another cutie!  I bet she'll be joining us on the board in a year or two


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## Dorymae (Sep 2, 2015)

It is not only the lye that destroys beneficial botanicals, it is the heat. When you dry herbs for therapeutic use you should not go over 95 degrees. Even when you are drying for nutritional value you should not exceed 115 degrees. 

So honestly adding any herb or infusion to soap for therapeutic value I don't believe can work. I only believe it works for label appeal.


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