# CP OR HP for Aleppo Soap?



## TheStat (Jun 10, 2016)

Which process is better for aleppo soap?


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## Cindy2428 (Jun 10, 2016)

If you want to keep the tradition of Aleppo soap, it is HP


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## TheStat (Jun 10, 2016)

After watching the soapmakers make the soap, how do they keep a liquid consistency of the soap after boiling?


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## shunt2011 (Jun 10, 2016)

I did mine CP as I don't care for HP.  Mine is 14 months old now. It's okay but not a favorite.


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## kc1ble (Jun 10, 2016)

TheStat said:


> After watching the soapmakers make the soap, how do they keep a liquid consistency of the soap after boiling?


 I'm certainly not an expert,  but I believe they use potash instead of sodium hydroxide and in fact boil the soap for days before pouring.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 10, 2016)

The historical way to make aleppo is a boiled process -- quite different than what we call HP or CP. The lye they would have used would have been a mixed potassium and sodium alkali solution. It would have been made from the ashes of seacoast plants. And yes the soap might have been boiled for some days before it was ready to pour. I don't know how real aleppo soap makers make their soap in modern times. From the video or two I've seen, it's still probably a modern version of the boiled process, since that is how most modern large-scale soap makers generally make their soap. They very likely use modern high-purity alkali -- whether sodium, potassium, or a mix of both, I don't know.


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## TheStat (Jun 10, 2016)

Is there a difference in quality of using cp versus hp?


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 11, 2016)

TheStat said:


> Which process is better for aleppo soap?



There isn't an inherent difference in quality between the CP and HP approaches. CP will look prettiest, but is the furthest removed from authenticity.

There is a lot of speculation about how Aleppo soap is traditionally made. Maybe the biggest question is whether it's a boiled, salted-out soap or actually some type of hot process where the whole contents of the pot is poured as soap. My experience in researching it is that information is scanty and contradictory. I read what I could and I studied photos of what appeared to be traditional production.

I think there is a good possibility that this is more of a hot process soap. I see it being made in old Arab-style structures with vaulted ceilings, which probably just have one floor and no basement. The pots appear to be sunk into the ground, with no provision to drain from the bottom.  As you've noticed, the pour is very liquid and appears to be steaming. Some but not all examples show a good amount of shrinkage.

Ultimately I had to make some decisions without really knowing how it's done. I did it hot process, with a small lye excess calculated. For fluidity I used a very high water amount and some sodium lactate. The final thing to make it more pourable was to wait until the OO was about done before adding the laurel berry oil. Immediately after incorporating the laurel oil, I poured everything into a mold to finish saponifying.


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## TeresaT (Jun 11, 2016)

Let's kidnap a Syrian and hold him/her hostage until s/he gives us the secret.  We can play "Henry 8th"  24/7 to make them talk:  

I'm Henry the eighth, I am
Henry the eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before

And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (No Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

*Second verse?  Same as the first!*

I'm Henry the eighth, I am
Henry the eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before

And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (No Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

I'm Henry the eighth, I am
Henry the eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before

And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (No Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

H-E-N-R-Y
Henry (Henry)
Henry (Henry)
Henry the eighth I am, I am
Henry the eighth I am
Yeah!


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 11, 2016)

You're kooky.


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## TeresaT (Jun 12, 2016)

And now you can't get that song out of your head!  (You're welcome.)


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## TheStat (Jun 12, 2016)

In this threadhttp://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38938&page=4 atragarden describes how to make it but I'm not sure if that's actually it.


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## Arimara (Jun 12, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> And now you can't get that song out of your head!  (You're welcome.)



Serves you right. :twisted::wave:


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## TheStat (Jun 19, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> There isn't an inherent difference in quality between the CP and HP approaches. CP will look prettiest, but is the furthest removed from authenticity.
> 
> There is a lot of speculation about how Aleppo soap is traditionally made. Maybe the biggest question is whether it's a boiled, salted-out soap or actually some type of hot process where the whole contents of the pot is poured as soap. My experience in researching it is that information is scanty and contradictory. I read what I could and I studied photos of what appeared to be traditional production.
> 
> ...



How did it end up?


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 19, 2016)

TheStat said:


> How did it end up?



Haven't tried it yet. It's cured for 6 months so far. This is it:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=60218


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## TheStat (Jun 19, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Haven't tried it yet. It's cured for 6 months so far. This is it:
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=60218



Nice, hopefully my batch turns out right using the recipe above.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 20, 2016)

TheStat said:


> Nice, hopefully my batch turns out right using the recipe above.



Which recipe, mine? Just don't assume I know how to make it. We could be better off singing Henry the Eighth. You can do it the same way or try whatever variation you want and report back. For one thing I don't know what makes the traditional product green. You would think it could be laurel and maybe pomace oil, but those don't actually stay green for very long in contact with lye. I saponified everything completely, but I wonder if there's supposed to be a laurel oil superfat.


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## TheStat (Jun 20, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Which recipe, mine? Just don't assume I know how to make it. We could be better off singing Henry the Eighth. You can do it the same way or try whatever variation you want and report back. For one thing I don't know what makes the traditional product green. You would think it could be laurel and maybe pomace oil, but those don't actually stay green for very long in contact with lye. I saponified everything completely, but I wonder if there's supposed to be a laurel oil superfat.



I was referring to the recipe in this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showt...t=38938&page=4
Hopefully it works out. Yeah in the video of the soapmakers making the soap, the olive oil they use looks really green, which I dont know where they obtain it from.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 25, 2016)

One of the fundamental questions about Aleppo soap is the process by which it's made. We have enough information to eliminate the cold process, which leaves two possibilities. One is that it's made with the hot process, in which the ingredients would be cooked and the entire contents of the pot poured as soap. The other is that it's a boiled process, in which soap curd is separated from the liquid solution using salt.

There are some sources that suggest castile from Aleppo is a hot process soap. While I haven't found anything that seems to definitively answer the question, I have tended to believe that it's HP. One reason is that the traditional factories we see in photos and videos look like they are set up for a simple process. I also think the video of soap being poured onto the floor as a fluid paste doesn't resemble soap curd from a boiled process.

One thing I overlooked when trying to research Aleppo soap is searching for information on the production of Nablusi soap. This is a castile of the Levant, made in what is currently the Occupied West Bank. They use the same process as Aleppo but without the laurel berry oil.

I think this clue is more definitive than anything I've seen to indicate that Aleppo and Nablusi are HP soaps:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XQIxCs7QkU[/ame]


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## TheStat (Jun 26, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> One of the fundamental questions about Aleppo soap is the process by which it's made. We have enough information to eliminate the cold process, which leaves two possibilities. One is that it's made with the hot process, in which the ingredients would be cooked and the entire contents of the pot poured as soap. The other is that it's a boiled process, in which soap curd is separated from the liquid solution using salt.
> 
> There are some sources that suggest castile from Aleppo is a hot process soap. While I haven't found anything that seems to definitively answer the question, I have tended to believe that it's HP. One reason is that the traditional factories we see in photos and videos look like they are set up for a simple process. I also think the video of soap being poured onto the floor as a fluid paste doesn't resemble soap curd from a boiled process.
> 
> ...



How do they maintain a liquid consistency? It appears they add a lot of fresh and salt water which keeps the soap a liquid, but wouldn't the water and soap separate or no?


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 26, 2016)

TheStat said:


> How do they maintain a liquid consistency? It appears they add a lot of fresh and salt water which keeps the soap a liquid, but wouldn't the water and soap separate or no?



Batters that would fail to come together in CP can sometimes come out fine using heat and stirring and time. The older soapers who used alkali derivatives from plant ashes reportedly cooked the soap for days. With pure hydroxide it evidently takes less than a day to pour the soap. I guess that sounds plausible.

My speculations about fluidity include (1) high water amount, (2) perhaps incomplete saponification when the soap is poured, (3) maybe high lye discount rather than alkali excess, (4) possibly because of some potassium alkali in addition to sodium. I always welcome additional ideas.

Interesting question about salt. I used sodium lactate to enhance fluidity, but I don't know if table or sea salt has anything like that effect. I've not really used it.


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## MySoapyHeart (Jun 26, 2016)

Interesting video TOMH.  

Btw, 4.59 in the video - epic packing skillz, probably done it a _few _times by the looks of it... : D


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 26, 2016)

MySoapyHeart said:


> Interesting video TOMH.
> 
> Btw, 4.59 in the video - epic packing skillz, probably done it a _few _times by the looks of it... : D



Right??


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## MySoapyHeart (Jun 26, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Right??




Totally!

On a different note, I secretly wish they at least used a vacuum cleaner to prepare the floor instead of just a broom to move the dust around...

But I may be a bit nitpicky, perhaps dust is an important secret ingredient of their soap... : P


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 26, 2016)

MySoapyHeart said:


> Totally!
> 
> On a different note, I secretly wish they at least used a vacuum cleaner to prepare the floor instead of just a broom to move the dust around...
> 
> But I may be a bit nitpicky, perhaps dust is an important secret ingredient of their soap... : P



Haha, I noticed that. I think the videography focused on it even if the narration didn't.


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## SimpleSoaper (Jun 26, 2016)

Thanks for posting the video - I have never heard of this soap.  I liked the fact that they showed the olive oil before they put it in the cooker.  It looks like what you can buy in a bottle in the US, and the soap it produces is light colored like a castile made with US olive oil.  I've often wondered what makes other olive oil soaps so green...

I found someone in Israel selling this soap on ebay and bought 4 bars.  I'm really curious to try it.  Should be here in 2-3 weeks.


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## TheStat (Jun 27, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Batters that would fail to come together in CP can sometimes come out fine using heat and stirring and time. The older soapers who used alkali derivatives from plant ashes reportedly cooked the soap for days. With pure hydroxide it evidently takes less than a day to pour the soap. I guess that sounds plausible.
> 
> My speculations about fluidity include (1) high water amount, (2) perhaps incomplete saponification when the soap is poured, (3) maybe high lye discount rather than alkali excess, (4) possibly because of some potassium alkali in addition to sodium. I always welcome additional ideas.
> 
> Interesting question about salt. I used sodium lactate to enhance fluidity, but I don't know if table or sea salt has anything like that effect. I've not really used it.



I think most aleppo soapmakers use only caustic soda these days but I'm not sure. Salt is added to the aleppo soap maybe to harden it, but it may increase fluidity. As for the olive oil the soapmakers use, I think it might be crude pomace olive oil which would explain the very green color.


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## TheStat (Jun 27, 2016)

SimpleSoaper said:


> Thanks for posting the video - I have never heard of this soap.  I liked the fact that they showed the olive oil before they put it in the cooker.  It looks like what you can buy in a bottle in the US, and the soap it produces is light colored like a castile made with US olive oil.  I've often wondered what makes other olive oil soaps so green...
> 
> I found someone in Israel selling this soap on ebay and bought 4 bars.  I'm really curious to try it.  Should be here in 2-3 weeks.



I think maybe the soapmakers use crude pomace olive oil, or they might just add coloring to the soap.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 27, 2016)

TheStat said:


> I think most aleppo soapmakers use only caustic soda these days but I'm not sure. Salt is added to the aleppo soap maybe to harden it, but it may increase fluidity. As for the olive oil the soapmakers use, I think it might be crude pomace olive oil which would explain the very green color.



I believe they do use raw pomace oil. I'd like a reliable place to buy it. The soapmaking suppliers seem basically confused between raw and refined pomace oil, two very different things, so I don't know what I'll get.


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## SimpleSoaper (Jun 27, 2016)

In the past I've searched the internet for pictures and sources of raw olive oil, and also raw pomace olive oil, trying to find the thick dark green oil that looks like what is in the popular video of Aleppo soap making.  I've never been able to come up with much of anything though.  One thing I wonder, is if they are using a crude pomace oil, then what kind of solvents end up in the final soap product?  Both the Greek Papoutsanis and Kiss My Face olive oil soaps are dark green, but smell like kerosene.  There is nothing on the labels that should smell like that, so I have to wonder.  By contrast, Marseille soap has a very clean, natural scent.  I've never actually had any Aleppo soap.

I don't know if this collection of images has circulated on this forum, but here are some pictures of Aleppo soap making from a German website:
http://www.historische-aleppo-seife.de/alepposeife_story_produktion.html
There are some interesting tidbits in there if you use an online translator (or speak German).  The first pressing olive oil looks very dark and crude, but it's the second pressing that is said to be used for the soap.  One picture has a caption that says "soap is cooked and stirred, still without Laurel oil", so maybe this supports the idea that laurel oil is added after saponification.  And check out that picture of the guy breaking open that cask of lye!  Think of all the precautions we take when working with just a few grams...


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 27, 2016)

SimpleSoaper said:


> In the past I've searched the internet for pictures and sources of raw olive oil, and also raw pomace olive oil, trying to find the thick dark green oil that looks like what is in the popular video of Aleppo soap making.  I've never been able to come up with much of anything though.  One thing I wonder, is if they are using a crude pomace oil, then what kind of solvents end up in the final soap product?  Both the Greek Papoutsanis and Kiss My Face olive oil soaps are dark green, but smell like kerosene.



It was mentioned in some video (maybe the one above?) that pomace oil is used. It's very easy to believe that they use whatever oil is least expensive, so probably inedible. That could be raw pomace oil or it could be virgin pressed oil that is unfit for consumption because of its FFA level. These oils require further refining to be sold as edible oil, but would be fine for soap and should saponify more easily.

I don't know if I can believe that raw pomace has high levels of solvent in it. I think the solvent is removed as a step of the extraction process rather that by refining. If there were contamination, the amount would probably be small and not detectable by smell because pure alkanes like hexane are odorless. Alkanes used for cooking and heating require odor to be added so that leaks can be noticed.


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## TheStat (Jun 27, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I believe they do use raw pomace oil. I'd like a reliable place to buy it. The soapmaking suppliers seem basically confused between raw and refined pomace oil, two very different things, so I don't know what I'll get.



Yeah I can't find a single place that has it. I've even asked my local olive growers and they said that after the first pressing they just give the pomace to farms.


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## TheStat (Jun 27, 2016)

SimpleSoaper said:


> In the past I've searched the internet for pictures and sources of raw olive oil, and also raw pomace olive oil, trying to find the thick dark green oil that looks like what is in the popular video of Aleppo soap making.  I've never been able to come up with much of anything though.  One thing I wonder, is if they are using a crude pomace oil, then what kind of solvents end up in the final soap product?  Both the Greek Papoutsanis and Kiss My Face olive oil soaps are dark green, but smell like kerosene.  There is nothing on the labels that should smell like that, so I have to wonder.  By contrast, Marseille soap has a very clean, natural scent.  I've never actually had any Aleppo soap.
> 
> I don't know if this collection of images has circulated on this forum, but here are some pictures of Aleppo soap making from a German website:
> http://www.historische-aleppo-seife.de/alepposeife_story_produktion.html
> There are some interesting tidbits in there if you use an online translator (or speak German).  The first pressing olive oil looks very dark and crude, but it's the second pressing that is said to be used for the soap.  One picture has a caption that says "soap is cooked and stirred, still without Laurel oil", so maybe this supports the idea that laurel oil is added after saponification.  And check out that picture of the guy breaking open that cask of lye!  Think of all the precautions we take when working with just a few grams...



Yeah I've searched for crude pomace olive oil and I haven't found a picture anywhere, maybe because it's used exclusively in industry. Yeah they don't really seem to care that much about the dangers of lye lol.


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## SimpleSoaper (Jun 28, 2016)

TheStat said:


> Yeah I can't find a single place that has it. I've even asked my local olive growers and they said that after the first pressing they just give the pomace to farms.


If you can get fresh olives locally, you can try making your own olive oil.  I don't speak/understand much Spanish, but this how-to is fairly self explanatory.  Not any olive trees where I live though...
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBQezlMmIRs[/ame]


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## TheStat (Jun 28, 2016)

SimpleSoaper said:


> If you can get fresh olives locally, you can try making your own olive oil.  I don't speak/understand much Spanish, but this how-to is fairly self explanatory.  Not any olive trees where I live though...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBQezlMmIRs



Doesn't crude pomace olive oil require solvents?


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## SimpleSoaper (Jun 28, 2016)

> Doesn't crude pomace olive oil require solvents?


I believe that solvents are used to extract the oil only after the first or second pressing.  Not speaking Spanish, I'm not sure why that guy boiled the olives.  Maybe to make the oil easier to squeeze out by hand?  If you search youtube, you can find other videos of people cold pressing fresh olives, but most are grinding the olives and then using some sort of mechanical press.  This guy's method uses things that most of us already have in our kitchen, which is why it appealed to me.


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## TheStat (Jun 28, 2016)

SimpleSoaper said:


> I believe that solvents are used to extract the oil only after the first or second pressing.  Not speaking Spanish, I'm not sure why that guy boiled the olives.  Maybe to make the oil easier to squeeze out by hand?  If you search youtube, you can find other videos of people cold pressing fresh olives, but most are grinding the olives and then using some sort of mechanical press.  This guy's method uses things that most of us already have in our kitchen, which is why it appealed to me.



Yeah one day I'll test out that process to see how the olive oil comes out. Some guy in Turkey said he might have some crude pomace olive oil during the olive harvest season in october/november.


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## Isabisa (Sep 17, 2016)

*HP Aleppo soap fluidity*



topofmurrayhill said:


> Batters that would fail to come together in CP can sometimes come out fine using heat and stirring and time. The older soapers who used alkali derivatives from plant ashes reportedly cooked the soap for days. With pure hydroxide it evidently takes less than a day to pour the soap. I guess that sounds plausible.
> 
> My speculations about fluidity include (1) high water amount, (2) perhaps incomplete saponification when the soap is poured, (3) maybe high lye discount rather than alkali excess, (4) possibly because of some potassium alkali in addition to sodium. I always welcome additional ideas.
> 
> Interesting question about salt. I used sodium lactate to enhance fluidity, but I don't know if table or sea salt has anything like that effect. I've not really used it.



Can you be a bit more specific on the water amount/lye discount? I have been making CP Aleppo soaps for a year now but am interested in trying a different process. I have read on this thread that someone was adding the laurel berry oil at the end. Would you consider this important? I use a 80/20 % of my oils (olive oil and laurel berry) in the soaps and find that this works well but am not sure if it makes a difference adding the laurel oil at the end or not.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 17, 2016)

If you are doing CP it doesn't matter when you add it as the lye is still active and will take what it wants. I do 70/30 and now they are 1 1/2 years old and I like it.  If you do HP you can add your oil as the SF after the cook but I wouldn't add 20%. Make sure you do the calculations correctly for your lye too.  I probably wouldn't exceed 8-9%. I don't do HP so others that so will pipe in.


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## topofmurrayhill (Sep 17, 2016)

Isabisa said:


> Can you be a bit more specific on the water amount/lye discount? I have been making CP Aleppo soaps for a year now but am interested in trying a different process. I have read on this thread that someone was adding the laurel berry oil at the end. Would you consider this important? I use a 80/20 % of my oils (olive oil and laurel berry) in the soaps and find that this works well but am not sure if it makes a difference adding the laurel oil at the end or not.



I don't have the numbers handy, but I tried quite a low lye concentration -- in the teens I think -- and it cooked up fine. If you want to take a shot at maximum authenticity, you would do it hot process and add the laurel oil at the end. There is total agreement between sources that the laurel oil is added at the end.

Less clear is whether the laurel oil is intended to be a superfat to some extent or not. Last time I went with not. I used more than enough caustic to fully saponify all the oil, but I mixed in the laurel oil before pouring and let it finish in the mold. Next time I might try a lye discount.


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## TheStat (Sep 17, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I don't have the numbers handy, but I tried quite a low lye concentration -- in the teens I think -- and it cooked up fine. If you want to take a shot at maximum authenticity, you would do it hot process and add the laurel oil at the end. There is total agreement between sources that the laurel oil is added at the end.
> 
> Less clear is whether the laurel oil is intended to be a superfat to some extent or not. Last time I went with not. I used more than enough caustic to fully saponify all the oil, but I mixed in the laurel oil before pouring and let it finish in the mold. Next time I might try a lye discount.



This one guy that makes Aleppo soap in Turkey said they usually add Laurel at around the same time as the olive oil, but it takes practice to know exactly when.


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## Bubli (Sep 25, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Let's kidnap a Syrian and hold him/her hostage until s/he gives us the secret.  We can play "Henry 8th"  24/7 to make them talk:
> 
> I'm Henry the eighth, I am
> Henry the eighth, I am, I am
> ...




Lol!I agree!


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## Margo (Oct 17, 2016)

That's a mystery to me, too. I've made it using the same technique, but once it started cooking it began to thicken. I made this soap using the HP method. My HP soap required only an additional week to totally cure, however the Aleppo soap took about three months to completely cure. This is far less time than the usual cure time of 9 months to one year. It is a darker color green in the center, but I had to slice the already cut soap bars to see it.
My first batch of Aleppo Soap 30% Laurel Berry Fruit Oil ended up like soft meal so I made Aleppo shampoo from it. Awesome!

Definitely, a yes to that question. My HP soap is ready to use within a week or less and is milder


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## biarine (Oct 17, 2016)

Margo said:


> That's a mystery to me, too. I've made it using the same technique, but once it started cooking it began to thicken. I made this soap using the HP method. My HP soap required only an additional week to totally cure, however the Aleppo soap took about three months to completely cure. This is far less time than the usual cure time of 9 months to one year. It is a darker color green in the center, but I had to slice the already cut soap bars to see it.
> My first batch of Aleppo Soap 30% Laurel Berry Fruit Oil ended up like soft meal so I made Aleppo shampoo from it. Awesome!
> 
> Definitely, a yes to that question. My HP soap is ready to use within a week or less and is milder




I like the looks of your shampoo. How long you cook your soap? Because true Aleppo soap they cook it for days .


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2016)

biarine said:


> ...true Aleppo soap they cook it for days .



That's true. But it's not made with a hot process method. So you're wanting to compare apples and oranges.


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## Margo (Oct 18, 2016)

I cook it in a crockpot for less than one hour.


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## biarine (Oct 18, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> That's true. But it's not made with a hot process method. So you're wanting to compare apples and oranges.




True you can't compare the apple and oranges but you can't call orange an apple either.


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## topofmurrayhill (Oct 18, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> That's true. But it's not made with a hot process method. So you're wanting to compare apples and oranges.



It does appear to be a hot process soap.


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