# Soap Percentage Inquiry



## Momosoaps (Oct 4, 2016)

Hello Everyone!

Momo here  Thank you for taking the time to look at my new post. I'm in desperate need 

Kinda new to soap making, this is my 5th batch and I would love to hear your valued opinion on this recipe

Its cold process, 

- 250g Coconut Oil 50%
- 150g Olive Oil 30%
- 50g Castor Oil 10%
- 50g Sunflower Oil 10%
- Lye 75.5g
- Water 150g

Attached is an image of the soap after 24 hours. It feels like I'm touching playdough. I only barely managed to pry it out of the mould and cutting it in the middle was not easy and it felt sticky. Some bits of the soap were sticking to the knife. 

Given the percentages, is this normal behavior at 24 hours? 

What are your thoughts on this?

Warm Regards, Momo


----------



## BattleGnome (Oct 4, 2016)

What kind of mold did you use? And a second question, what's your weather like?

I use a silicone mold and my soaps are easily in for 3-5 days. There's no air flow with silicone which can slow the soaponification. There are methods/additives to help counteract it but it's a thing to keep in mind. If it is super humid by you it may take longer for a soap to harden due to moisture in the air while an arid linage will give the opposite effect. 

Personally I'd give it a day out of the mo,d and see if it solidifies a bit more before cutting. Sometimes that extra air is magic. I'm guessing mold/weather is more your issue rather than a recipe issue (you certainly have enough coconut to harden a bar). Someone else will probably be able to tell you if your recipe has issues.


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 4, 2016)

BattleGnome said:


> What kind of mold did you use? And a second question, what's your weather like?
> 
> I use a silicone mold and my soaps are easily in for 3-5 days. There's no air flow with silicone which can slow the soaponification. There are methods/additives to help counteract it but it's a thing to keep in mind. If it is super humid by you it may take longer for a soap to harden due to moisture in the air while an arid linage will give the opposite effect.
> 
> Personally I'd give it a day out of the mo,d and see if it solidifies a bit more before cutting. Sometimes that extra air is magic. I'm guessing mold/weather is more your issue rather than a recipe issue (you certainly have enough coconut to harden a bar). Someone else will probably be able to tell you if your recipe has issues.



Hi Battlegnome!

I live in Sydney Australia, currently spring. Temp in my room is a constant balmy 24 degrees centigrade. I used a Plastic mould (which is why you can see seperate beveled indents within the 2 loaves in the image)

The previous batch which was 100% coconut oil hardened quite well quite quickly. So perhaps I am used to those curing super speeds. 

Coconut is well known to be a non soft soap, aswell as Castor (I'v seen posts were they have used 100% castor oil on its own. Super hard bar, no lather)

Could it be the Olive Oil that has softened it? I used extra virgin olive oil I found in mums kitchen. I will certainly check up on it at 24 hour intervals and report my findings here. 

Peace out.


----------



## shunt2011 (Oct 4, 2016)

It's soft likely due to the high percentage of liquid oils/castor.  Too much castor can make soap soft and sticky. I would just give it some time to harden up.  

Also, 50% CO with only a 5% sf is going to be a very cleansing bar of soap.  It's way too much for most folks.  I don't generally exceed 25% Coconut and many don't go above 15.   

I would highly recommend adjusting your recipe.  Using Lard/Palm along with CO, Sunflower, Olive & Castor.  I use 5-8% Castor and don't go much higher too often.  Castor helps stabilize your bubbles.   

If using a silicone mold, as stated it can stay softer longer, especially if you don't gel your soap.   You could try adding 1-2 tsp salt ppo and that will help make your soap harder sooner for unmolding.


----------



## Susie (Oct 4, 2016)

If that soap did not gel, I am not surprised that it is still soft.  If you need to cut it or something right away, I would put it into the freezer for a couple of hours to harden it.  Then once it is hard, cut it and put it into something with good airflow for a long cure.

That would not be my preferred recipe, just too much coconut oil.  It would dry me right out.


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 4, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> It's soft likely due to the high percentage of liquid oils/castor.  Too much castor can make soap soft and sticky. I would just give it some time to harden up.
> 
> Also, 50% CO with only a 5% sf is going to be a very cleansing bar of soap.  It's way too much for most folks.  I don't generally exceed 25% Coconut and many don't go above 15.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for that, I really do appreciate that advice. If you had to only use the aforementioned 4 oils. Castor, Sunflower, Olive and Coconut, at what percentages would you use them with?

Regards, Momo


----------



## shunt2011 (Oct 4, 2016)

Unfortunately, with just those oils, the soap is going to require a really long cure.  4-6 months or so.   If you can get lard/palm it would make a much better balanced soap.

65% Olive
10% Sunflower
20% CO
5% Castor

I would calculate it with a 5% SF

You can also do 100% CO with a 20% SF, not my favorite either but will make a usable soap.


----------



## TeresaT (Oct 4, 2016)

Momosoaps said:


> Thank you so much for that, I really do appreciate that advice. If you had to only use the aforementioned 4 oils. Castor, Sunflower, Olive and Coconut, at what percentages would you use them with?
> 
> Regards, Momo



If it were me, I would do 55% Olive, 25% Sunflower, 15% Coconut and 5% Castor.  I would also add 2% to 3% of the weight of the oils in salt to increase the hardness to make unmolding easier (you can dissolve that in your water before you add the NaOH).  I would also add 1% - 2% weight of oils in sugar to increase the bubbles (if you like bubbles; this recipe would make for a creamier lather than a bubblier lather).  You can dissolve the sugar in the water before you add the NaOH.

 The issue with that much olive oil (soft oils in general, I guess) is the cure time.  It takes much longer for soft oils to cure than it does for hard oils.  You can use this bar of soap in the normal 4-6 week cure time that everyone recommends; however, it will not be a great bar of soap.  I wouldn't think to use it for at least six months.  I would consider it a "Bastille" and let it sit for a year before calling it cured.  (I don't know the longevity of Sunflower oil and how prone to DOS [dreaded orange spots or rancidity] it is.  I don't think that is one that I have used yet.  I'd have to check my list of soaps.)

One other thing, using EVOO in soap, in my opinion, is a waste of a good olive oil.  It does not bring any benefit to the soap that you can't get from second or subsequent pressings of the olives or pomace olive oil.  (Although, in modern commercial production, I doubt they do multiple pressings any more.)


----------



## Dahila (Oct 4, 2016)

My Bastille after 3 months is awesome. I make a huge batches and pack only few when needed so the final cure is more like 6 months.  Like Shunt said you need to play around with the recipe 
Adding a bit of lard or tallow will make huge different. Add 1 tsp of Sodium Lactate to cooled lye water, and unmolding will be much easier. Go down with Coconut oil.  My skin would crack with that number. 20% CO for me is the most I use


----------



## dixiedragon (Oct 4, 2016)

Your soap looks great! I think it will harden up in a few days. Did you gel? Also, how did you stir? What method and how long?

I would do something like:
20% coconut
6% castor
37% olive
37% sunflower


----------



## chela1261 (Oct 4, 2016)

I only use 20% coconut oil as it can strip the oils from your skin and I always use some kind of butter like Shea or cocoa. Castor I use between 3-5%. I also use sodium lactate to help harden the bars. Hope this helps! And your soap looks awesome!


----------



## penelopejane (Oct 4, 2016)

Hi, 
Since you are from Sydney Australia you will know that our EVOO price is the same as the OO and we can't buy pomice (chemically extracted OO from remaining olive mash and leaves after the other processes have extracted as much oil as they can). So buy EVOO at Aldi, Coles and woolies at $20 everyday or less on special or OO (not cold pressed but uses heat so some properties of the oil may be lost). 

You can but Ricebran oil from Coles right now at $9 for 4 Litres. This is better in soap than sunflower oil (Possible DOS). You can go to New Directions in Marrackville and buy Avocado or almond oil in 5 litre jugs reasonably. As well as lots of other nice stuff. Don't buy their FOs (too $$$) 

I am one of those people that believe that the heat of a shower opens pores and allows chemicals and things into your skin and into your body so I watch what I put into my soap. Having said that 1 tsp of salt ppo will harden your soap. 

Olive oil makes a lovely soap. 100% Pure Olive oil (Castile) makes a rock hard bar that lathers well - after 3 months it is useable, after 6 months it is better, after a year it is great after 2 years it is fabulous.  You will find that our climate and I think our water or maybe it's our OO is different to 
the US and Castile here seems to work well.  Or maybe it's just me and my friends who love it. 

Unfortunately with soap making you have to try a few recipes and see what you really like. People on this forum can give you their best ever recipe and you can make it and go: what were they thinking??

I think you will find CO very drying. The maximum I use in a normal soap (ie: not a salt bar) is 10%. And I don't use it at all in my main recipe.  Castor oil is also problematic for me and I use it at 5%. 

Having said all that I think your soap just needed more time to cure before you got it out of the mold and cut it. The plastic molds are even worse than silicone for letting a soap breath and cure. 

Next time you make a batch cover the soap with cardboard, wrap it in an old small piece of blanket or a towel, preheat your oven to 40*C, turn the oven off, put your soap in and leave it undisturbed (don't open the oven) until the morning and you should be able to cut the soap. Still test it and if it sticks to the knife wait a bit longer. Note: most ovens don't go as low as 40*C. Preheat the oven, turn it off and wait till it gets to the temp of a very hot day using your hand (unless you have a candy thermometer) and then put your soap in. 

Sorry if this is too much info for you now. Ask any questions you need to when they arise.


----------



## IrishLass (Oct 4, 2016)

Welcome Momosoaps! :wave:

If you ask me, your recipe looks like it will make a good and hard soap with all that coconut oil in there. The reason why it is so soft is because it most likely did not go through the gel stage. Just give it a few days and it will harden up quite nicely.  Typically, soaps that don't go through gel can be as soft as cream cheese at first, even soaps with a lot of hard butters/fats in them. There's nothing wrong with it, though- it's just the nature of things when it comes to not gelling. 


IrishLass


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 5, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Hi,
> Since you are from Sydney Australia you will know that our EVOO price is the same as the OO and we can't buy pomice (chemically extracted OO from remaining olive mash and leaves after the other processes have extracted as much oil as they can). So buy EVOO at Aldi, Coles and woolies at $20 everyday or less on special or OO (not cold pressed but uses heat so some properties of the oil may be lost).
> 
> You can but Ricebran oil from Coles right now at $9 for 4 Litres. This is better in soap than sunflower oil (Possible DOS). You can go to New Directions in Marrackville and buy Avocado or almond oil in 5 litre jugs reasonably. As well as lots of other nice stuff. Don't buy their FOs (too $$$)
> ...





Thank you for your reply penelopejane. 

I have cured the Soap for 24 hours now and can feel a reasonable difference. The soaps are harder and are beginning to feel less "play-doughy"

Im not too sure as to what all these Acronyms stand for. 
What is 
PPO?
EVOO?
OO?
FO?

I figured that CO is Coconut

So far, my understanding is that the reason why its quite soft is because I have used too much Olive Oil which is a soft soap.

My innovation for this batch was *2M2M* (two major two minor) - I use two major percentages of hard oils vs 2 low percentages of soft oils. Turns out the olive oil was a softy. Making my soap a pretty soft soap at 24 hours despite containing half Coconut oil. 

Should I replace the olive oil with Shea Butter, a hard oil?
Palm oil is to be avoided due to the environmental impact it has.
Animal fat it to be avoided too.

What is a hard oil that can be used at high percentages without drying the skin (such as coconut oil)

Once again I really do appreciate the help you guys have been putting forward, it really means alot to me

Regards, momo


----------



## penelopejane (Oct 5, 2016)

Momosoaps said:


> Thank you for your reply penelopejane.
> 
> So far, my understanding is that the reason why its quite soft is because I have used too much Olive Oil.
> 
> ...



So sorry!!
PPO - per pound of oil (not the whole batter weight)
EVOO - Extra Virgin Olive Oil
OO - Olive oil
FO - Fragrance Oil

there are lots more too, on this thread:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=51841

Olive Oil produces a very hard bar after a longer cure. Soap calc says it is soft because straight after cure it is not hard.  But it is hard over time. Just ignore Soapcalc.
I use it at 50% minimum.  
If you gel your soap you will find it is harder quicker.  
To gel your soap follow the instruction above about putting it in the oven.  That is called CPOP.  But it is not cooking the soap.  it is just coddling it a little to keep the warmth that it produces all by itself contained for a long period of time.  This also brings out the colours. 

Your soap wasn't soft because of the OO.  It was soft because you hadn't been patient enough. : )
Looks like you used Lye concentration of 33% which is fine for a hard bar quickly. You just have to wait a bit sometimes and watch it until you get a feel for when your soap is going to be ready to demold.  (They use american spelling for mold in soaping!)

50% CO is too high for a regular bar.  
Try replacing some of it with more OO or Avocado oil or Almond oil or shea or cocoa butter.  

PJ


----------



## Susie (Oct 5, 2016)

I would not use over 20% butters, as it might hurt your lather.


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 6, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> So sorry!!
> PPO - per pound of oil (not the whole batter weight)
> EVOO - Extra Virgin Olive Oil
> OO - Olive oil
> ...



Thank you so much Penelope

I appear to be stuck :/ 

I keep getting advice "I wouldnt use more than 5% or 10% or 20% of this or that"

With so many restrictions to keep so many oils below the 10% mark, I'm left feeling that I need to use more and more and more oils just to meet the 100%

I dont want to use more than 4 oils ideally. 

I'm seeking to make a bar with abundant fluffy lather, that hardens quickly (if that means switching to hot process then I am happy to do that) that is conditioning and leaves the skin feeling supple. I dont particularly want to use more than 4 oils

I have found this recipe in a book 

shea butter 30%
palm oil 30% (sustainable only)
olive oil 20%
coconut oil 10%
castor 10%

Optionally I would like the technique if possible to allow for swirling of other colours

What is your opinion on the above recipe?

Any help is muchly appreciated. 

Regards, momo


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 6, 2016)

You could change that to being:

coconut 15%
Caster 5%
Shea Butter 20%
Palm 60%

And you are at 4.   If 4 was very much the magic number, I would keep the castor and not the olive as in the recipe above.  However, if you could go to 5 oils then I would make it 

coconut 15%
Caster 5%
Shea Butter 20%
olive 20%
Palm 40%

Soaping (well, GOOD soaping!) is all about balance.  We want some of this in there, but this means that we need to consider x and y.  If we put in some of oil x, it then affects something else.............. it can get tricky if there is a particular combination that someone is heart-set on using, but other than that a balanced recipe isn't too tricky once you get a feel for some of the major oils and what you need to be mindful of.


----------



## penelopejane (Oct 6, 2016)

Momosoaps said:


> Thank you so much Penelope
> 
> I appear to be stuck :/
> 
> ...



30% shea is expensive and will cut the bubbles.  It might make a lovely bar though. 

This recipe:
30% Palm oil
30% Olive Oil
30% Coconut Oil
10% Castor

Makes a really hard bar that fills your criteria (bubbly long lasting etc). 
The problem is that soap is very dependent on what YOUR skin likes. 
My skin might like one recipe while someone else's skin will like something else.  That is why someone will say no more than 10% CO and others will say only use lard.  Some people love Goats milk, others hate it. 

You really have to try a recipe and tweek it to see what you like, as frustrating as that is. 

To tweek the above 30/30/30/10 recipe I would personally increase the OO, drop the Coconut oil (which I am allergic too and dries my skin) to 10% max and drop the Castor to 5% and replace the palm oil (which I am allergic to and I am fundamentally opposed to) with Avocado, Almond, Macadamia, Shea butter or mango butter. 

But these suggestions might not suit you.  I have friends who only want the 30/30/30/10 recipe because it cleans well and they have not problem with palm or coconut. 

All of the above suggestions will fulfil the requirement to add colour.  HP is limited in that regard and the hardness gained in the first day with HP is soon matched by any CP bar. Both have to cure for 6 weeks but will be nicer given a longer cure.  CP is an easy process and CP soaps look and feel beautiful as well, although there are people out there who like the look of HP bars.  Just about everything in soap making is subjective. :mrgreen:


----------



## Susie (Oct 6, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> You could change that to being:
> 
> coconut 15%
> Caster 5%
> ...



^^This!

The reasons are:

Shea Butter will cut your lather if you use more than 20%.  20% will still harden your bar, and give you a lovely soap.  However, if you use more palm, you won't need this for hardness.  I would try a batch with shea butter, and one without, then see what YOU prefer.

Increasing the palm will give you a harder bar.  Palm/lard/tallow provide fatty acids that help the structure of the soap, as well as the _skin cleansing without stripping_ benefits.  To me, this is the most important part of a soap.  If I get this right, everything else sort of falls into place much easier.  

I can add coconut oil/palm kernel oil in the 10-15% (my personal preference, yours may be completely different) range for extra bubbles without drying my skin.  

Then I can add olive oil/rice bran oil/sweet almond oil in for...I really don't know how to explain what those oils do for soap, so bear with me, please.  They make the lather almost seem more luxurious.  Soap without something in this oil slot is not really harsher, but it is just soap.  Nothing to get excited about.  With at least 10-15% (again, my personal preference, yours may be completely different), you get a richer lather.  It is definitely noticeable when you leave it out.  I do NOT like high olive oil soaps.  They just are not my favorite soaps.  

Then there is castor oil.  Castor oil makes your bubbles hang around longer.  This makes the difference of how long that lather lingers on your skin.  I prefer 5% added to every bar soap.  I have tried more, but I see no change until I get to 10%, which I don't like.

Then there is the superfat amount (not added in after trace like in HP, just changed on the lye calculator).  My personal preference is 5-8%.  Again, you may prefer higher or lower depending on the recipe you make.    

Then I would add a sugar.  I, personally, use white table sugar or honey.  But people use milks, cooked down beer, cooked down wine, and other things that contain sugars.  Sugars help boost the bubbles in soap.  I prefer to use between 1 teaspoon and 1 tablespoon PPO.

To sort of boil this down, here is what I would do without specifying exacts:

Palm/tallow/lard:  40% or higher
Olive oil:  10-15%
Coconut oil:  20% or lower
Castor Oil:  5% always
Superfat:  5-8%
Sugar:  1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon PPO, OR milks, beer, wine, etc

Then you can add any butter or "luxury" oil that you like.  If it is a butter, then decrease the palm a little to accommodate, if it is a liquid oil, decrease the olive oil a little.

To tweak this to your personal preference, I would change 5% at the time.  Up or down, and try each batch against one another after the 6 week cure.  You will then figure out your best recipe.  Be sure to label your batches and keep your recipes with the name of the soap and the date (add your color blend and scent blend information).  Then write on the recipe what you thought of it.  This information becomes invaluable when you've made many batches of soap.  You can then look back through them and see what you've done, and know what you thought about it at that time.

ETA:  Sorry about the wall of text, but I can't shorten it and still convey all the info.


----------



## DeeAnna (Oct 6, 2016)

I'm late to the party, but I think Irish Lass' advice is spot on about why this soap is unusually soft. Soaps that do not get fairly warm during saponification will often stay softer for a few days. 

That threw me the first few times it happened to me -- I used a recipe I was familiar with and was expecting a firm soap with a nice waxy feel, but instead the soap was soft with a somewhat crumbly texture, much like feta cheese. I finally traced it to the soap remaining cooler than usual during saponification. 

Two solutions to this issue (it's hard to call it a "problem" really!) -- The first is simple patience. Give the soap time to firm up -- a few days or so -- and then try to unmold and cut it. 

The second solution is to preheat the oven to somewhere around 150 deg F (65 C), put the soap in its mold into the preheated oven. Even if you've already cut it into bars, just put the bars back in the mold and pretend the soap is all in one loaf. Let the soap warm for, oh, maybe an hour. Take it out and see if it has firmed up. If it is still too soft, put back in the oven for another 1/2 hour or so. If still overly soft, I'd turn the oven off and just leave the soap in the oven to slowly cool down. 

Whether you want to tweak your recipe is a second issue, in my opinion. For my skin, there's too much coconut oil, but for other people's skin the 50% CO might be fine.



IrishLass said:


> Welcome Momosoaps! :wave:
> 
> If you ask me, your recipe looks like it will make a good and hard soap with all that coconut oil in there. The reason why it is so soft is because it most likely did not go through the gel stage. Just give it a few days and it will harden up quite nicely.  Typically, soaps that don't go through gel can be as soft as cream cheese at first, even soaps with a lot of hard butters/fats in them. There's nothing wrong with it, though- it's just the nature of things when it comes to not gelling.
> 
> IrishLass


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 8, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> 30% shea is expensive and will cut the bubbles.  It might make a lovely bar though.
> 
> This recipe:
> 30% Palm oil
> ...



Hi Everyone!

I am pleased to announce that the soaps have hardened within a reasonable amount. I cut them 5 days ago. I trialed one of the soaps and have left my hands feeling unbelievably soft and conditioned!

Patience was key!

I'v provided some photos too


----------



## penelopejane (Oct 8, 2016)

Momosoaps said:


> Hi Everyone!
> 
> I am pleased to announce that the soaps have hardened within a reasonable amount. I cut them 5 days ago. I trialed one of the soaps and have left my hands feeling unbelievably soft and conditioned!
> 
> Patience was key!



Congratulations.  Looks very nice.


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 8, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Congratulations.  Looks very nice.



Thank you dear <3

Glad I have a wise localized source of information, do you have any advise on buying soap cutters in Australia?

Regards, Momo


----------



## penelopejane (Oct 8, 2016)

Momosoaps said:


> Thank you dear <3
> 
> Glad I have a wise localized source of information, do you have any advise on buying soap cutters in Australia?
> 
> Regards, Momo



No I haven't been able to find one here. 
I got a Bud's workshop one on etsy. 
https://www.etsy.com/au/shop/budhaffner

Timber, beautifully made. 
It takes a while to learn to use a wire cutter and the finish isn't as good as a paint scraper and mitre box. But they are quick, regular cuts and I wouldn't be without one and I don't even sell!


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 14, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> If it were me, I would do 55% Olive, 25% Sunflower, 15% Coconut and 5% Castor.  I would also add 2% to 3% of the weight of the oils in salt to increase the hardness to make unmolding easier (you can dissolve that in your water before you add the NaOH).  I would also add 1% - 2% weight of oils in sugar to increase the bubbles (if you like bubbles; this recipe would make for a creamier lather than a bubblier lather).  You can dissolve the sugar in the water before you add the NaOH.
> 
> The issue with that much olive oil (soft oils in general, I guess) is the cure time.  It takes much longer for soft oils to cure than it does for hard oils.  You can use this bar of soap in the normal 4-6 week cure time that everyone recommends; however, it will not be a great bar of soap.  I wouldn't think to use it for at least six months.  I would consider it a "Bastille" and let it sit for a year before calling it cured.  (I don't know the longevity of Sunflower oil and how prone to DOS [dreaded orange spots or rancidity] it is.  I don't think that is one that I have used yet.  I'd have to check my list of soaps.)
> 
> One other thing, using EVOO in soap, in my opinion, is a waste of a good olive oil.  It does not bring any benefit to the soap that you can't get from second or subsequent pressings of the olives or pomace olive oil.  (Although, in modern commercial production, I doubt they do multiple pressings any more.)



Thank you for your reply Teresa

I have restructured the plan for the next batch which will commence this weekend and consists of the following

45% Olive
25% Coconut
10% Castor
10% Sunflower
10% Teatree Fragrance 

Superfatted at 6% or 7%

Cold Process Oven Process is the method for this next batch

I will proceed as per normal cold process then stick the mould in the oven at 50 Degree Celcius (122 F) and see how it progresses over the next half hour to speed up the Saponification process - let me know what you think of my plan, I'm eager to hear what you have to say


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 14, 2016)

The tea tree eo or fo shouldn't be counted as an oil in that 100% - or have I miscalculated?

Your 'normal' oils should be 100%, and your scents separate.


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 14, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The tea tree eo or fo shouldn't be counted as an oil in that 100% - or have I miscalculated?
> 
> Your 'normal' oils should be 100%, and your scents separate.



Thanks! In that case it would be

50 olive
30 Coconut
10 Sun
10 Castor

Cold Process Oven Process

What is your opinion on this recipe?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 14, 2016)

Personally I think that the castor is too high in general, especially for a soft oil soap. I prefer recipes generally with some hard oils in there, ideally lard, but if you want a soft-oil recipe then certainly lower the castor or it could be so soft and gooey. It will need a good 3 month cure anyway. The co is fine in this case as you are using a high SF. 

I don't know what the tea tree limit would be - is 10% going to be safe for skin?


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 14, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Personally I think that the castor is too high in general, especially for a soft oil soap. I prefer recipes generally with some hard oils in there, ideally lard, but if you want a soft-oil recipe then certainly lower the castor or it could be so soft and gooey. It will need a good 3 month cure anyway. The co is fine in this case as you are using a high SF.
> 
> I don't know what the tea tree limit would be - is 10% going to be safe for skin?



Hmm, the soap I pictured at the start of this post had 10% castor, was done completely cold process and the soap was hard after 1 week cure and is of acceptable hardness now. 

Happy to replace the Olive oil with Palm Oil. Tho thats currently being shipped to my address presently. 

Regards, Momo


----------



## Susie (Oct 14, 2016)

That's too much coconut oil for me, I prefer no more than 15%.  

I suggest you wait until your batch cures before making another.  I know it is difficult to wait, but then you will know if you like that recipe or not.  After that, come let us know.


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 14, 2016)

Susie said:


> That's too much coconut oil for me, I prefer no more than 15%.
> 
> I suggest you wait until your batch cures before making another.  I know it is difficult to wait, but then you will know if you like that recipe or not.  After that, come let us know.



Thank you for your reply Susie, when you suggest for myself to wait until it has cured, do you imply that the properties I am feeling now when I test the soap are not an accurate representation of the properties the soaps will exhibit 3 weeks later when they complete their 4 week cure cycle?

Regards, momo


----------



## shunt2011 (Oct 14, 2016)

Momosoaps said:


> Thank you for your reply Susie, when you suggest for myself to wait until it has cured, do you imply that the properties I am feeling now when I test the soap are not an accurate representation of the properties the soaps will exhibit 3 weeks later when they complete their 4 week cure cycle?
> 
> Regards, momo


 
Not Susie, but yes, the soap will change for the better at 4 weeks. There is so much more to curing then the evaporation of water. It changes it's structure. More bubbly, creamy, longer lasting, milder.

I suggest trying it each week and seeing the change for yourself.


----------



## TeresaT (Oct 14, 2016)

Momosoaps said:


> Thank you for your reply Susie, when you suggest for myself to wait until it has cured, *do you imply that the properties I am feeling now when I test the soap are not an accurate representation of the properties the soaps will exhibit 3 weeks later when they complete their 4 week cure cycle?*
> 
> Regards, momo





shunt2011 said:


> Not Susie, but *yes, the soap will change for the better at 4 weeks. There is so much more to curing then the evaporation of water. It changes it's structure. More bubbly, creamy, longer lasting, milder.*
> 
> I suggest trying it each week and seeing the change for yourself.




Yes.  I double what shunt says.  I'm "sold" on a long cure, myself.  I prefer my soaps to cure a minimum of three months.  They are perfectly good soaps at six weeks and my friends like them.  I gift them at that cure time.  However, I now have some older soaps to gift alongside of the newer soaps for comparative purposes.  So far everyone has agreed that the older soaps were better.  However, they didn't know why soap A was nicer than soap B.  They thought it was a different oil combination.  It's just the curing/aging process that soap goes through.


----------



## dibbles (Oct 14, 2016)

I agree with everyone else that after a 4-6 week cure your soap will have changed and you will have a better idea of how you like your recipe. But, I also understand that you are fairly new to soap making and the desire to just _make soap!_ Coconut oil doesn't bother me, and I will use it up to 25%. I usually stay around 20%. Since you seem to have no problems with high coconut oil, now have palm oil  and want to make a soap that hardens faster for unmolding purposes, this is what I would do:

25% coconut
30% palm
30% olive oil
10% sunflower oil
5% castor

Dissolve salt and sugar in your lye water as others have suggested. Make small batches until you can test your soaps after a full cure. Also, keep in mind that higher amounts of coconut may not bother your skin, but if you are giving it away, it may be a problem for others in higher percentages. You could also try 15% coconut, and add 5% each to the palm and olive oil to compare.


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 14, 2016)

dibbles said:


> I agree with everyone else that after a 4-6 week cure your soap will have changed and you will have a better idea of how you like your recipe. But, I also understand that you are fairly new to soap making and the desire to just _make soap!_ Coconut oil doesn't bother me, and I will use it up to 25%. I usually stay around 20%. Since you seem to have no problems with high coconut oil, now have palm oil  and want to make a soap that hardens faster for unmolding purposes, this is what I would do:
> 
> 25% coconut
> 30% palm
> ...



I'm more aligned with your recipe. I think I will try that one for sure. Just need to wait on the next shipment of Palm to come in. 

While I do understand that a >4wk cure is recommended for cold process, It is inconvenient for me to wait that long. Which is why I have shifted my interest to CPOP. If I CPOP this batch, what cure times am I looking at?

Regards, Momo


----------



## dibbles (Oct 14, 2016)

CPOP requires the same cure time. As does hot process. There really is no way around it.


----------



## Momosoaps (Oct 14, 2016)

dibbles said:


> CPOP requires the same cure time. As does hot process. There really is no way around it.



Everywhere I have read seems to appose that

An example is

*Soaps made using the cold process method take about three to four weeks to cure. This of course depends on where you live. If you live in a region where the humidity is very low such as Colorado it could take your soaps one to two weeks to cure. If the soaps were made using the hot process method one week of cure time is sufficient.*

http://handmadesoapcoach.com/the-difference-between-hot-process-and-cold-process-soaps/

Thoughts?


----------



## dibbles (Oct 14, 2016)

Momosoaps said:


> Everywhere I have read seems to appose that
> 
> An example is
> 
> ...



First, do not confuse CPOP with hot process. I don't do hot process soap, but I do know that can be done in the oven. CPOP is cold process soap which is put into a low-temp oven to encourage gel.

As to the issue of cure time, there are all kinds of things that are said on blogs, youtube, etc. There is good advice and bad advice. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I guess. What I know is - I trust the information that is given on this forum, and when I have a question about something, this is where I look. There are many members with years of experience and an incredible base of knowledge. DeeAnna is one of those members who is willing to share what she knows from her chemistry background. Read this thread, particularly DeeAnna's posts #1, #11 and #15.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=35831&highlight=cure+time

Another thing I know is that I have seen, more times than I can count, people post that they have found their soaps to be so much better when given a proper cure time. I have never seen a post that said their soap was as good 2 days after it was made as it was after a 4 week cure. My own experience today: I used a soap that was 1 year old. It was not bad soap when first made, and a very nice to use soap at 4 weeks. At one year, it is wonderful. I don't have many soaps that are this old. They are usually used or given away before a year. But I keep a bar from each batch for a year.

Your soap will be safe to use after it has saponified and you have checked to make sure it doesn't zap. (This thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30690) But, it won't be as good as it will be when it is given the time it needs. A fully cured bar of soap will be milder, lather better, and last longer. 

I wonder about two things. When searching the internet for information, have you thought of also searching this forum when you have a question about something? If your soap doesn't zap, go ahead and use it. But assuming you will have made a few batches in the next four weeks, you will always have properly cured soap once that first batch is used up. So why do you think you won't ever be able to wait 4 weeks?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 15, 2016)

You will be looking at a cure time that works for you. 

Sounds a little but unhelpful? Maybe. But naysaying people here based on some of the terrible misinformation from mommy bloggers and so on is not a great way to endear yourself to members. 

A lot of people get confused about cure and saponification. Think of it this way:

There is a point when a soap is unsafe, then safe, finally ready for use. 

The first two are easy - when it zaps (still saponifying) it is not safe. When the saponification is finished, it is safe. 

Ready to use then depends on you. With 100% olive soaps, some people wait a year. Some 6 months and others much less. For each one, they need that cure time to get to the point where they consider the soap ready to use. 

For me, I don't consider hp soap ready to use before a 4 week cure. It CAN be used before, as can cp (including cpop) soap, but safe is not ready.


----------

