# Soap Wire cutting hints



## penelopejane (Apr 29, 2016)

Hi, 

I have a beautiful wire cutter from bud's woodshop.  It is very well made. 
The bars are the perfect width every time. 

My problem I am having is that I can't work out the right time to cut.  Even if I leave the soap a while so that it is almost too hard to cut through I get a sort of chalky, rough finish to the cut at the centre of the soap.  It's not just the mark made by the wire.

Has anyone experienced this before or does anyone have a good technique for using a wire cutter?


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## houseofwool (Apr 29, 2016)

Can you post a picture of the end result?

Also, are you tightening the wires enough. It takes a bit to know how tight and when you start on one end and work your way across, you will need to go back to the beginning and check that they are all "in tune".


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## shunt2011 (Apr 29, 2016)

I haven't had that happen to date.  But, I don't wait long enough  and sometimes end up with wire lines because I'm cutting too soon.  I also sometimes get little bubble looking thinks on the bars.  I'm sure a lot of it is getting it tuned just right and waiting long enough.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 29, 2016)

"...Even if I leave the soap a while so that it is almost too hard to cut through I get a sort of chalky, rough finish to the cut at the centre of the soap. It's not just the mark made by the wire...."

I have seen this a time or two in my soaps. The problem in my case is the soap didn't get warm enough during saponification. I soap with a high enough lye concentration that my soap doesn't necessarily gel, but if the soap gets warm enough as if it is thinking seriously about gelling, it doesn't have an unusual softness and powdery or chalky texture. If it doesn't get warm enough, it sometimes does have those problems. 

I've found a gentle "CPOP after saponification" can correct this problem -- Put the soap back into its mold if needed, even if the soap is already cut. Preheat the oven to about 150 deg F and turn the oven off. Put the soap in the oven and leave it there until the oven cools down. Check to see if the texture is improved. The few times I've tried this, it has helped a lot. I still consider this an experimental tip, however, so use at your own risk.

If you think your soap is getting warm enough, the only other things I can think of that might cause this problem might be a recipe higher in linoleic acid and lower in palmitic and stearic acids than usual, a very high superfat, or an unusual amount of liquids and additives, including fragrance and colorants.


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## Guspuppy (Apr 29, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> I haven't had that happen to date.  But, I don't wait long enough  and sometimes end up with wire lines because I'm cutting too soon.  I also sometimes get little bubble looking thinks on the bars.  I'm sure a lot of it is getting it tuned just right and waiting long enough.



I get that bubble looking things too, I think it's tiny soap balls made by the wire passing through. But i don't know how to stop it. I got a cheap wire cutter from Amazon and am afraid to let the soaps get much harder before trying to cut them as I felt like my wire was going to break on a less-than-24-hrs-old lard soap.


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## penelopejane (Apr 29, 2016)

I have attached a photo.  The soap on the left is cut with the wire cutter, the soap on the right is the same soap showing the side which was next to the mold (perfectly smooth).  I can plane the marks left on the side cut with the wire cutter off and it is smooth again.

I CPOP at 100*F.


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## Relle (Apr 29, 2016)

I get that same look. All I do is smooth it with my thumb straight away after each cut and it comes up OK.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 29, 2016)

Thanks for the photo -- I have a better idea of what you're talking about now. It's different than what I had thought earlier.

I'd say for the most part that this texture is pretty normal for a wire cut soap, at least from what I've been seeing since I started using a wire cutter over a year ago. You know about mottling/rivers/streaking in soap, right? IMO, this texture is also from that same mottling -- you might not see the "rivers" in the soap, but they're there. The texture doesn't show up with a blade because the blade is stiff and heavy enough to cut through any slight changes in the hardness of the soap. A wire, being much lighter, can deflect as it goes through harder and softer bits. 

Faster cooling might => more consistency, but I don't think the texture will entirely disappear. I also think it helps a little bit to make sure my hard fats are completely melted before I start soaping.

Just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth!


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## dillsandwitch (Apr 30, 2016)

I get the same look with some of my soaps. I usually soap at 33% lye concentration and also CPOP so I can usually unmould and cut in about 6-8 hours depending on how lazy I am being. I find that running a damp cloth over the cut soaps before I put them on the drying rack sort od smooths the appearance of this down a bit. But to be perfectly honest it disappears after the first use anyways so I just embrace it like I do soda ash if I get it.


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## penelopejane (Apr 30, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> I have seen this a time or two in my soaps. The problem in my case is the soap didn't get warm enough during saponification. I soap with a high enough lye concentration that my soap doesn't necessarily gel, but if the soap gets warm enough as if it is thinking seriously about gelling, it doesn't have an unusual softness and powdery or chalky texture. If it doesn't get warm enough, it sometimes does have those problems.
> 
> I've found a gentle "CPOP after saponification" can correct this problem -- Put the soap back into its mold if needed, even if the soap is already cut. Preheat the oven to about 150 deg F and turn the oven off. Put the soap in the oven and leave it there until the oven cools down. Check to see if the texture is improved. The few times I've tried this, it has helped a lot. I still consider this an experimental tip, however, so use at your own risk.
> 
> If you think your soap is getting warm enough, the only other things I can think of that might cause this problem might be a recipe higher in linoleic acid and lower in palmitic and stearic acids than usual, a very high superfat, or an unusual amount of liquids and additives, including fragrance and colorants.



Thanks DeeAnna, 

I will raise my lye concentration a bit and increase the temp I CPOP a tiny bit.  But if I raise my lye concentration it won't gel will it? But CPOPing is trying to force Gel.  So what happens to the poor confused soap?  

I did put the soap photographed back into the oven but only turned it onto 100* F and turned it off. It made no difference. So probably not warm enough?

It happens with pure OO and my other recipe which both have low SF and with FO or without so I don't really think it is the recipe. I do take a lot of trouble to melt my hard oils and mix them thoroughly before I mix in the lye.  I will try the above and then might invest in a planer : ))


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## DeeAnna (Apr 30, 2016)

"... But if I raise my lye concentration it won't gel will it? But CPOPing is trying to force Gel. So what happens to the poor confused soap? ..."

CPOP adds warmth to encourage saponification. That often means the soap goes into gel, but it doesn't have to. Your lovely soap is not confused at all -- it's just doing what comes naturally. 

"...I did put the soap photographed back into the oven but only turned it onto 100* F and turned it off. It made no difference. So probably not warm enough?..."

I now don't think my first suggestions apply to your specific situation -- the "after the fact CPOP" wasn't really necessary for your soap. When I wrote that, I was going off your word description -- it sounded to me as if your soap might not have gotten warm enough during saponification to firm up properly. 

After you shared your photo, the soap looks fine and I changed my opinion. The ripply surface on the bar looks like a normal type of texture for a soap cut with a wire, so warming the soap again didn't hurt anything -- but it didn't help much either.


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## penelopejane (Apr 30, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> ".
> If you think your soap is getting warm enough, the only other things I can think of that might cause this problem might be a recipe higher in linoleic acid and lower in palmitic and stearic acids than usual, a very high superfat, or an unusual amount of liquids and additives, including fragrance and colorants.



In your tutorial on citric acid you say add it to 2x it's weight if water and add it to the oils. Should I be adding it to the lye water? Could this effect the SF and consequently causes these marks?


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## DeeAnna (Apr 30, 2016)

Water based liquids can't affect superfat -- you aren't changing the lye nor changing the fats. Yes, you can add citric acid to the water that you're using to make the lye solution if you prefer; a number of people are uncomfortable doing that because the reaction between citric acid and lye causes extra heating of the lye solution.

If you choose (as I suggest) to dissolve the citric acid in 2 times its weight of water and then add to the fats, the water should be a portion of the total liquid called for in your recipe -- it shouldn't be extra water in addition to the water in the recipe. It didn't occur to me that one might interpret this advice as to add even more water. I will have to re-word that sentence.


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## penelopejane (Apr 30, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Water based liquids can't affect superfat -- you aren't changing the lye nor changing the fats. Yes, you can add citric acid to the water that you're using to make the lye solution if you prefer; a number of people are uncomfortable doing that because the reaction between citric acid and lye causes extra heating of the lye solution.
> 
> If you choose (as I suggest) to dissolve the citric acid in 2 times its weight of water and then add to the fats, the water should be a portion of the total liquid called for in your recipe -- it shouldn't be extra water in addition to the water in the recipe. It didn't occur to me that one might interpret this advice as to add even more water. I will have to re-word that sentence.



No I haven't added more water. Your wording does not imply that. 
It is just that someone on this forum said CA must be added to the lye water or it will not turn into citrate. He said if you add CA to the oils it will not make the required reaction.  
Do you think adding the CA to the lye water would stop the marks on my soap?


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## DeeAnna (Apr 30, 2016)

It's true the citric acid has to "meet" some active lye (whether KOH or NaOH) sooner or later. It doesn't really make a lot of difference whether the CA and lye meet sooner in the lye solution or whether the CA and the lye meet a moment later when you mix the fats and lye solution. I certainly hope nothing I've said about using citric acid is misleading any one about this point. 

I don't think changing when you add citric acid will make any difference to how your wire cutter cuts your soap. As Shari and I have mentioned, your soap in the photo looks very typical for a wire cut soap.


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## penelopejane (May 1, 2016)

That's annoying! Videos show people cutting soap perfectly smooth with wire cutters. I wonder what their secret is?


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## Guspuppy (May 1, 2016)

I suspect any closeups of the cut soap have been planed. I'm kinda bummed about the surface left by the wire too! Thinking of getting a miter box and straight blade myself.


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## DeeAnna (May 1, 2016)

I had about the same reaction at first, but I've gotten a little less perturbed as time went on. 

As I've been paying more attention to this issue, I've learned a few things that I didn't notice before. One is that my soap tends to form a slightly textured surface as it cures, even if cut with a blade or planed smooth. Again, I think it's those (often invisible) rivers/mottles/streaks at work. The high-low water soaps I made for the SMF challenge (in November or December, 2015) really showed this effect. What's paradoxical is the texture from the wire cutter tends to to become less obvious as the soap cures/dries.

I even did a little experiment a few months ago -- I left one side of a wire cut bar as-is, planed the other side to a silky smoothness, and let the bar cure as usual. The wire cut side is still more textured than the other side, but the planed side now shows some texture as well.

So .... I've mostly gotten over being annoyed and wanting to plane all my soaps. HTH!


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## penelopejane (May 6, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> As I've been paying more attention to this issue, I've learned a few things that I didn't notice before. One is that my soap tends to form a slightly textured surface as it cures, even if cut with a blade or planed smooth. Again, I think it's those (often invisible) rivers/mottles/streaks at work. The high-low water soaps I made for the SMF challenge (in November or December, 2015) really showed this effect. What's paradoxical is the texture from the wire cutter tends to to become less obvious as the soap cures/dries.
> 
> I even did a little experiment a few months ago -- I left one side of a wire cut bar as-is, planed the other side to a silky smoothness, and let the bar cure as usual. The wire cut side is still more textured than the other side, but the planed side now shows some texture as well.
> 
> So .... I've mostly gotten over being annoyed and wanting to plane all my soaps. HTH!



Hi DeeAnna, 
In my latest soap I have greatly improved the cut! You can see the result in the challenge. 
I tightened the wires so they were really really tight. 
I used 33% lye concentration (probably not a good idea as I was doing the challenge!!!)
And I heated the oven to 140*F, wrapped the soap in a blanket and did not open the oven once until the next day. 

I am really pleased with the texture.  It really doesn't need planning. Now, unfortunately, I am not quite sure which one of those effected the soap as I did them all at once! :silent::silent::silent:

Thank you for persisting with recommendations.


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## penelopejane (May 14, 2016)

I have attached two soaps.  The plain grey spotty one is the first attempt at this colour.  The second photo is the second attempt that I just cut.  Poured last night so it is 18 hours old.  It has 1tsp salt in the batter, 1tsp salt in the water, vanilla bean seeds and AC as colourant.  The Perfect Man FO also discolours. 

It is my first in the pot swirl and I also used the hanger tool. I wanted two different greys swirls and a cream top.  Next time I will make the dark grey a tiny bit darker, the creamy grey the same colour as the dark grey and put an even heavier AC very thin swirl through it.  Keeping the cream top.  Do you think that would look better? 

I was so excited to actually have a bar to cut that was a normal recipe (not confetti, 35% salt etc) to show you how I had improved my wire cutting technique that it wasn't until I looked and realised the salt in the batter is showing through as an imperfection!  So next plain batch I make I will post another one!

It is not what I was aiming for as a finished artistic product for my son but he will love it because he likes AC and salt.

I still think you will be able to see the vast improvement I have made in the finished surface of the soap just by doing two things: 33% Lye concentration (up from 30%) and tightening the strings really, really tight. It is a huge difference up close and personal.


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## ngian (May 14, 2016)

I think that if you avoid adding salt, the soap's surface will be a lot better. 

It sounds weird but after 1,5 years of personal soapmaking for the first time I made a recipe without salt and I really liked the surface and texture of the final soap. It was more soapy plastic kind of texture. 

I think salt is giving a more grainy surface and sodium lactate or vinegar might be a better choice for adding hardness (one of my forthcoming experiments).


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## penelopejane (May 14, 2016)

Post 6 bar doesn't have salt. 
I've confused the issue with by posting these pictures of a soap with salt in the batter, sorry. It is the face of the bar that has been bad not the salty bits - just ignore those. [emoji2]  Generally, when I am not going for a scrubby effect, I dissolve the salt in the water and you can't tell it's there.


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## DeeAnna (May 14, 2016)

Nice outcome, Penelopejane! Looks very good -- kudos for plugging away at this problem!!!


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## penelopejane (May 14, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Nice outcome, Penelopejane! Looks very good -- kudos for plugging away at this problem!!!



DeeAnna! Amazing difference! 
I am going to try a 30% lye concentration with really really tight wires (probably just the "right tightness" I only use my hand) and test the result.  Too impatient to do them one at a time, first off. 33% lye concentration really speeds things up for me and I tend to need time to think while soaping. 
So exciting.  
Just remember, if others try this, You have to remember to loosen the wires after use on a beautiful timber cutter!


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## Guspuppy (May 14, 2016)

I'd LOVE to be able to tighten the wire on my cheese cutter soap cutter, but alas it is cheap and I cannot afford  a nice one.  Glad you figured it out though!!


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## penelopejane (Feb 25, 2017)

I have just made a new discovery about wire cutters and the marks they leave. 

Both of these soaps are exactly the same recipe (same batch but soap one has no confetti, soap two has a little confetti) at 31% lye conc, dual lye, with pumpkin, salt, no CA, no vinegar, made on exactly the same day, cut with the same tightness of wires and look at the difference!  Soap one is perfectly smooth.  Soap two (forget the confetti in the soap I am just talking about the surface) has the rough surface I've noticed in most of my soaps that I cut with a wire cutter. 

Soap one (perfectly smooth) was put in a cardboard box, wrapped in a blanket and put on top of the oven. 
Soap two (rough) was put in a cardboard box, wrapped in a blanket and put in the oven (100*F) turned off. 
Both were cut 18 hours later.  

I am thinking that the smooth soap might have been less saponified.  So in *theory* it was cut a little earlier than the one that went in the oven.  So it was a little softer than soap two although this was barely noticeable at the time.  So I am thinking I should cut my soaps about 12>14 hrs if I CPOP them.
Does this make sense? 
Has anyone else experienced this?

BTW just ignore the cinnamon line gone wrong - someone!!! was too heavy handed with it.


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## mommycarlson (Feb 25, 2017)

penelopejane, that soap is really pretty!  how did you get those criss cross lines on the top?


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## earlene (Feb 25, 2017)

It certainly makes sense to me that softer soap would cut a bit more smoothly.  I know if I wait too long with a recipe that becomes a very hard bar, that any method of cutting will run into problems, but if I cut earlier it will be easier to cut.

They are very pretty.  They look like a fancy desert with raspberry parfait on top.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 25, 2017)

"...how did you get those criss cross lines on the top?..."

Not PenelopeJane, but when I do something like this, I want to pour the soap when it is at very light trace so the top levels itself smooth after pouring. I then wait until the top of the soap is slightly thickened -- like soft pudding. I hold a small stainless steel spatula vertical so the front tip faces down and gently insert the spatula tip down into the soap maybe 1/8 inch (3 mm). Pull it straight up out of the soap -- voila, a little ridge! 

If you make a set of parallel diagonal lines at one angle and another set of parallel diagonal lines that cross the first, then you'll end up with the embossed diamond shape in PJ's picture. You can also form a little tool out of wire to make these ridges. But if you just want straight lines, a spatula works well.

I got this idea from Auntie Clara's blog -- she uses this concept a lot and makes some really cool designs by bending wire into the various shapes she wants to emboss on the soap. http://auntieclaras.com/2014/04/tutorial-inverted-stamp-technique-lattice-tops-more/


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## penelopejane (Feb 25, 2017)

^^^
As DeeAnna said I got the technique from Auntie Clara's blog - I used a thin wire hanger tool.  This was my first attempt at it. I called in DH to admire my handy work but his level of excitement left a lot to be desired!!

Earlene, do you think soap one would have been marginally softer being on the bench rather than.CPOP? Do you agree it might be a timing thing? 

 It's going to be tough getting the timing right with vinegar soap.


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## HowieRoll (Feb 26, 2017)

Well, penelopejane, I have admired your soap a few times since you posted (seriously, I've come back to this post to look at it!) and am totally excited about your handiwork.  In fact, I had the same thought as earlene, in that they look like a fancy dessert with a raspberry filling - complete with such a decadent whipped topping, the kind you see behind the glass display cases at fancy bakeries.  

For what it's worth (which is, admittedly, not much), the one and only time so far that I've used vinegar a few of the bars crumbled a little bit when cutting with a wire cutter.  I think had I cut them sooner it may not have been an issue, but then again, it's also possible that my vinegar usage calculation was wrong (I was shooting for 2% sodium acetate and want to try again at 1%).


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## earlene (Feb 26, 2017)

penelopejane said:


> ^^^
> Earlene, do you think soap one would have been marginally softer being on the bench rather than.CPOP? Do you agree it might be a timing thing?
> 
> It's going to be tough getting the timing right with vinegar soap.



I do agree.  Since the only difference between the two soaps is the method to encourage quicker gel, it stands to reason that the timing of cutting the soaps within the parameters of the actual gel time are the factor here.  In my mind, anyway.  They both obviously reached gel. But the first one probably took longer, so it wasn't as advanced in the gel completion phase, so it would seem it was probably somewhat softer.  And it was probably also somewhat cooler for a longer period of time than the CPOP'd one was.  

I am assuming they both were at the same temperature when cut but I have never given any thought to  how temperature of the soap might affect cut, so don't know if that matters.  But I do know that when I use a blade to cut, I get a smoother result if the blade is warm instead of cold, so perhaps the actual temperature of the block of soap might impact the cut texture.  (Just thinking on the fly here.)

Oh, I guess there might be one other factor.  Did you wipe down the cutting wires between use?  I assume you did as everything I see always emphasizes doing so.


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## penelopejane (Feb 26, 2017)

HowieRoll said:


> Well, penelopejane, I have admired your soap a few times since you posted (seriously, I've come back to this post to look at it!) and am totally excited about your handiwork.  In fact, I had the same thought as earlene, in that they look like a fancy dessert with a raspberry filling - complete with such a decadent whipped topping, the kind you see behind the glass display cases at fancy bakeries.
> 
> For what it's worth (which is, admittedly, not much), the one and only time so far that I've used vinegar a few of the bars crumbled a little bit when cutting with a wire cutter.  I think had I cut them sooner it may not have been an issue, but then again, it's also possible that my vinegar usage calculation was wrong (I was shooting for 2% sodium acetate and want to try again at 1%).



Thank you very much for your kind words. I still feel I have a disaster for every two good soaps I make. I couldn't believe the cinnamon line! I didn't put much on so I think the problem was putting it on too early. I should have let the first layer harden more and I could have as I did it in two batches. However if I want to cut early I want both parts to be equally saponified so timing and s going to be important. 

Regarding the vinegar. I usually substitute 1/2 the water for vinegar because I premix my lyes with water. This is a dual lye with pumpkin so I ended up with only 40g of vinegar in the coloured part as the rest was purée. In future with purees I'll have to learn how to premix my lyes with vinegar. 

Just occurred to me - I wonder if the cinnamon reacted with the vinegar or the KOH this is the first time I've used cinnamon with either.


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## penelopejane (Feb 26, 2017)

earlene said:


> I do agree.  Since the only difference between the two soaps is the method to encourage quicker gel, it stands to reason that the timing of cutting the soaps within the parameters of the actual gel time are the factor here.  In my mind, anyway.
> 
> I am assuming they both were at the same temperature when cut but I have never given any thought to  how temperature of the soap might affect cut, so don't know if that matters.  But I do know that when I use a blade to cut, I get a smoother result if the blade is warm instead of cold, so perhaps the actual temperature of the block of soap might impact the cut texture.  (Just thinking on the fly here.)
> 
> Oh, I guess there might be one other factor.  Did you wipe down the cutting wires between use?  I assume you did as everything I see always emphasizes doing so.



The only other difference is the mold shape. Don't know if that makes a difference. I wish I had tested their temps when I cut but I think they were both room temp - not cold. It was 18hrs after they were made. 

A blade cut - warm or cold is always smooth for me, regardless of timing or temp. 
Yes I wiped the wires down between soaps.


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## mommycarlson (Feb 26, 2017)

Thank you DeeAnna and penelopejane!  I never would have thought to do that.  The challenge for me is having soap stay fluid that long, when I get to the point of the top layer, it's always so set up I could never do this technique.  I love it though, and I have a soap in mind to use it on, but it's a layered soap and I know that it likely will not happen.  but it's good to know how to do it!  Thanks for the link and the advice!


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## penelopejane (Feb 27, 2017)

mommycarlson said:


> Thank you DeeAnna and penelopejane!  I never would have thought to do that.  The challenge for me is having soap stay fluid that long, when I get to the point of the top layer, it's always so set up I could never do this technique.  I love it though, and I have a soap in mind to use it on, but it's a layered soap and I know that it likely will not happen.  but it's good to know how to do it!  Thanks for the link and the advice!



Yes, that technique is really time dependent. 

If you are making a layered soap you can do your mix in batches if you want a little more time to do things.  

You can either make 2 soaps at the same time and put 1/2 in one mold and 1/2 in the other mold then wait and make the next layer.  
Or if you want to make three layers you can divide everything into 3 as well as the lye mixture and then make three layers individually.


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## mommycarlson (Feb 27, 2017)

penelopejane said:


> Yes, that technique is really time dependent.
> 
> If you are making a layered soap you can do your mix in batches if you want a little more time to do things.
> 
> ...



I literally said "ohhhh" out loud as I read this  LOL, I never would have thought to divide everything as well as the lye.  Interesting idea!  Thank you


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## DeeAnna (Feb 27, 2017)

I use PenelopeJane's method when I make a beer soap that has several tilted, irregular pencil lines running through it to simulate rock. The FO accelerates trace so I use that to my advantage. 

I tilt my mold to one side so the soap batter will fill a wedge-shaped portion of the mold. I then make my beer soap batter, portion it into 4 parts. I add FO to just one of the parts, mix that portion, and pour it into the mold. Wait until the the batter stiffens so I can "rough up" the surface (remember I want the soap to look like rock!), and add my cocoa pencil line. Tip the mold to the other side. Put FO into the second portion of batter, mix, pour, rough up, and do pencil line. And so on. 

It works pretty cool!


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## earlene (Feb 28, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> I use PenelopeJane's method when I make a beer soap that has several tilted, irregular pencil lines running through it to simulate rock. The FO accelerates trace so I use that to my advantage.
> 
> I tilt my mold to one side so the soap batter will fill a wedge-shaped portion of the mold. I then make my beer soap batter, portion it into 4 parts. I add FO to just one of the parts, mix that portion, and pour it into the mold. Wait until the the batter stiffens so I can "rough up" the surface (remember I want the soap to look like rock!), and add my cocoa pencil line. Tip the mold to the other side. Put FO into the second portion of batter, mix, pour, rough up, and do pencil line. And so on.
> 
> It works pretty cool!



This sounds so cool, *DeeAnna*.  Do you have a photo of one of your soaps done with this techniqe?  I imagine they can be quite beautiful and  I'd love to see how they look.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 2, 2017)

Earlene -- Sometimes it looks more rock-like than others. This isn't the best example, but it gives you the idea.


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