# Almost perfect -- but won't lather.



## grayceworks (Dec 21, 2013)

My liquid soap lathered fine while diluted. 

I thickened it using just plain table salt, and it thickened the perfect amount, but now barely lathers. I can lather it with a shower puff, but not with bare hands. 

It cleans just fine, and feels WONDERFUL on my skin, much like my plain olive oil soap does, it just doesn't bubble now that I thickened it. 

Ingredient       Ounces
Water          .......      9.462 oz    .......      3:1 ratio -- used 50/50 method of 1/2 water, 1/2 glycerin
Lye - KOH  .......      3.154 oz    .......    (0% SF)

     Oil/Fat      ...........     %      ...........    Ounces
1Sunflower Oil  .......  60.00%  .......   10.5   oz
2Avocado Oil     ....... 20.00%  .......      3.5   oz
3Castor Oil         ....... 12.75%  .......      2.23 oz
4Jojoba Oil        .......    7.25%  .......      1.27 oz

I used a 20% dilution, it diluted beautifully. Nice and crystal clear, no skin on top. 
I added 1oz lavender EO. Everything's good so far. 
Added .5% liquid germall plus. Still good. 
Added 1/8 tsp salt per pound of paste, as per my tests on how much to use to thicken it -- thickened perfectly. And quit lathering. *sigh*

Like I said, almost perfect. It still feels wonderful to wash with. And shampoo with. Just no lather. Weird.


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## lsg (Dec 21, 2013)

Too much salt will interfere with lather.  It doesn't have to lather to clean though.


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## grayceworks (Dec 21, 2013)

lsg said:


> Too much salt will interfere with lather.  It doesn't have to lather to clean though.



Hmm. Ok, so I need to find a different way to thicken it, I guess. Too bad, since the salt made it the exact consistency that I wanted.   Or maybe I'll just call it 'super-gentle suds-free soap' lol  

Ideas? I'll probably attempt another batch of the same recipe tomorrow, so if there's a better way to thicken it that's still nice on sensitive skin, that would be really helpful!  

Btw, I used this as shampoo last night, and I only needed half  of my usual leave-in conditioner and my hair is super-soft and shiny. My skin felt great too. So I dunno if I should change anything. 

What do y'all think?


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## Obsidian (Dec 21, 2013)

This stuff is supposed to work wonderfully, I plan on trying it sometime. I'd start by using 1% and increase as needed.
http://www.theherbarie.com/Crothix-Liquid.html or you can get the wax version you have to melt yourself
http://www.brambleberry.com/Crothix-Pastilles-P3215.aspx


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## lsg (Dec 21, 2013)

I use Crothix Liquid to thicken my shampoos and body washes, works great.


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## grayceworks (Dec 23, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestions! Not sure if I'll try the crothix or not, as it appears to be a little too 'chemical' for what I'm trying to make with this particular recipe -- BUT on those links you gave me, there's a few other thickeners that are more along the lines of what I'm looking for, which I'd like to try, so thank you for pointing me in that direction! 

I'm also thinking I might need to add some coconut oil to the recipe... do you think that would help? I like how non-drying the recipe is currently, but I think it could stand a bit maybe.


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## Lindy (Dec 28, 2013)

Keep in mind that salt reduces lather significantly and sometimes completely.  You would definitely need coconut oil if you are thickening with salt for that very reason....


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## cmzaha (Dec 29, 2013)

HEC works well for thickening ls. (Hydroxyethylcellulose) Lotion Crafter carries HEC and Making Cosmetics carries HE-Cellulose, Modified which is a little easier to use.


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## grayceworks (Dec 29, 2013)

Hmm. Now I don't know whether to change the recipe to add coconut oil, or use something like the HEC, modified cornstarch, or the GuarSilk stuff I saw on the herbarie. I already know I don't like xanthan gum for thickening. I think I'll start with adding coconut oil, since that doesn't require buying more stuff. lol *wanders off to play mad scientist*

???Question???
I have another liquid soap that's 100% Coconut oil that I use for cleaning. If I mix a bit of that in with this batch, will that give me an accurate representation of what I can expect from modifying my recipe? Before I spend a LOOOOOONNNGGGG time cooking another batch of liquid soap?


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## grayceworks (Dec 29, 2013)

_***edited to remove spam links_***



I am unable to view the links, however if you are in the UK, I believe there are quite a few requirements for selling soap and cosmetics that you have to meet before you get to the packaging part of things... And ideally, your packaging would go along with your brand/logo identity you've already worked out, as far as color/shape/style/etc. It's a bit more than choosing a bottle and slapping a label on it.  

 I think you would likely get better advice by posting your own thread in the correct forum, rather than attaching your question to an  unrelated thread of someone else's. Try posting in the business forum, and you'll get answers that will be most helpful!


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## cmzaha (Dec 29, 2013)

grayceworks said:


> Hmm. Now I don't know whether to change the recipe to add coconut oil, or use something like the HEC, modified cornstarch, or the GuarSilk stuff I saw on the herbarie. I already know I don't like xanthan gum for thickening. I think I'll start with adding coconut oil, since that doesn't require buying more stuff. lol *wanders off to play mad scientist*
> 
> ???Question???
> I have another liquid soap that's 100% Coconut oil that I use for cleaning. If I mix a bit of that in with this batch, will that give me an accurate representation of what I can expect from modifying my recipe? Before I spend a LOOOOOONNNGGGG time cooking another batch of liquid soap?


 
I also hate Xanthan gum (plus I am allergic to it). GuraSilk did not work as well for me as the Modified Hec or Hec


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## cmzaha (Dec 29, 2013)

grayceworks said:


> I am unable to view the links, however if you are in the UK, I believe there are quite a few requirements for selling soap and cosmetics that you have to meet before you get to the packaging part of things... And ideally, your packaging would go along with your brand/logo identity you've already worked out, as far as color/shape/style/etc. It's a bit more than choosing a bottle and slapping a label on it.
> 
> I think you would likely get better advice by posting your own thread in the correct forum, rather than attaching your question to an unrelated thread of someone else's. Try posting in the business forum, and you'll get answers that will be most helpful!


 
Agree with Grayceworks on this one, you should start a new thread. But aside from that, I will mention, if you are looking to use bell bottles in the shower for gels they are very hard to hold on to. You need to put a lot of consideration into your packaging and perfect your product first. LS is not the easiest of the soaps to make and perfect...


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## Lindy (Dec 29, 2013)

grayceworks said:


> Hmm. Now I don't know whether to change the recipe to add coconut oil, or use something like the HEC, modified cornstarch, or the GuarSilk stuff I saw on the herbarie. I already know I don't like xanthan gum for thickening. I think I'll start with adding coconut oil, since that doesn't require buying more stuff. lol *wanders off to play mad scientist*
> 
> ???Question???
> I have another liquid soap that's 100% Coconut oil that I use for cleaning. If I mix a bit of that in with this batch, will that give me an accurate representation of what I can expect from modifying my recipe? Before I spend a LOOOOOONNNGGGG time cooking another batch of liquid soap?



I think it's worth a try and then you can keep upping it until you get the lather you like which will give you an idea (rough idea) of how much coconut oil to add in.


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## Hazel (Jan 1, 2014)

grayceworks & cmzaha- 

It was very nice of you to try to help this person. However, this person was a spammer so I've removed the posts and the links.


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## grayceworks (Jan 1, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I think it's worth a try and then you can keep upping it until you get the lather you like which will give you an idea (rough idea) of how much coconut oil to add in.



Ok, so that wasn't what I wanted. To add enough coconut to the recipe to get the lather I want also makes it dry my skin, at about 25%. 

This batch is just fine for me and hubby as hand soap and bath gel. It lathers some with a bath puff -- more now than a week ago, actually. Had one friend test who doesnt mind the lack of suds, and she likes it on her skin but said it left her hair feeling kinda residue-y while wet, but silky when dry. Mine did feel similar, but was very soft and frizzy lol. 

Soooo.. salt is not the thickener for this recipe. Weird how such a tiny bit makes such a difference! Ok, and I may tweak the oils a bit also, but not til I find the right thickener first. One thing at a time, in spite of my impatient nature wanting to just change it all up at once LOL

I'm going to make another batch exactly the same minus the salt, and split it in three, trying a different thickening method for each this time, to see which gives the best results, then, if the recipe still needs changes, I'll go from there. 





Hazel said:


> grayceworks & cmzaha-
> 
> It was very nice of you to try to help this person. However, this person was a spammer so I've removed the posts and the links.



Figured it might be.  figured until it was proven one way or the other, general advice was the best course, in case it was just a new person lost on the forum. 

Thanks for cleaning it up!


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## Hazel (Jan 1, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> Figured it might be.  figured until it was proven one way or the other, general advice was the best course, in case it was just a new person lost on the forum.



Good thinking that it might have been some poor, lost soul wandering the forum. It does happen. I appreciate your willingness to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Thank you!


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## grayceworks (Jan 6, 2014)

The more I think about it, and test the original batch, the more I think I need to adjust the recipe some. I love it on my skin for a shower gel. But I want it to be a little less --- hmm. I don't know what word I'm looking for. I KNOW it's not actually moisturizing. Except this leaves my skin feeling better than before the shower, and not needing lotion --- so what is that called? I'm brain dead this morning. Long night at work lol. 

I love it on my skin, but I want it as a more general-purpose base recipe than just shower gel, I want it to be able to be hand-soap or shampoo or bath/shower gel depending on how I dilute/thicken/scent/add stuff. 

I've been looking at all the properties of the original recipe again on soap-calc. I designed it to be low-cleansing (0) and high-conditioning (80), and not too worried about bubbly/creamy (11/22) or the rest of it, for this attempt. Sooo... it was already kinda low on the bubbly scale and then the salt killed it. lol. *Question:* *If I redesign it some, to be a bit less conditioning (that's the word!) then the bubbly should go up also, right? *

*Another question: *I have a few oils in mind that might work to give me the results I want, without using coconut oil. The avocado, castor, and jojoba must stay. I'd like to keep the sunflower oil, but may switch it out -- not sure yet.
The original recipe was 60% sunflower, 20% avocado, 12.75% castor, and 7.25% jojoba. Using the 50/50 glycerin/water method.
I'm thinking, lower the sunflower and avocado, and add something cleansing. Like babassu. Or PKO. 

*BUT... If it was your recipe to tweak, what oil would you add/increase/reduce?* 

*Another question:* Has anyone ever taken their favorite CP soap bar recipe, and converted it to a liquid soap recipe by putting it in soap-calc with KOH selected? If so, did it work like you expect?


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## Lindy (Jan 6, 2014)

I would increase the castor and make it my main oil as it creates bubbly....


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## grayceworks (Jan 6, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I would increase the castor and make it my main oil as it creates bubbly....



So it's ok to have high castor oil in liquid soap? As opposed to limiting it in CP soap? Interesting!


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## Lindy (Jan 6, 2014)

It is.


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## grayceworks (Jan 6, 2014)

Ok, wanna hear something very very weird??? 

When I made the original recipe, diluted it, let it sit for a week to settle  then thickened it with the salt, I had put 16oz in a bottle for me to test and use, and sealed the other 110oz. up in a jar for later. 

Fast-forward to the issue I've been having -- summary: So my 16oz tester wasn't lathering when I first tested at right after thickening, at wk1, or at wk2. Tried adding coconut oil soap to half of that. Not a good trade-off between lather and drying. Decided to make a new batch, divide into 3, test three thickeners. All 3 work ok, not sure what I like best yet, but that's not the weird thing....

*What's weird is -- *it's wk3, going on wk4 of the original batch. Just filled a fresh bottle from the 110oz. In the jar. Washed my hands with it. TONS of nice white bubbly lather. From the original recipe thickened with salt! Huh? Where did the suds come from all of a sudden??? Have I been stressing over nothing? It is now sudsing as well at 4wks as the 2nd batch with alternate thickeners does at 1wk. I'm soooooo confuzzled.  :what:

I'm still going to lower the conditioning just a smidge, and will up the castor. But looks like I might be able to go with salt as a thickener after all? I'd love some insight on this!


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