# Why oh WHY???



## SoapyGoats (Sep 2, 2015)

SO:

-My soap keeps overheating:
 1) - I've tried a bazillion different oil recipes
 2) - I've tried putting my soap in the fridge and leaving it out
 3) - I've tried soaping REALLY cool
 4) - I've tried different Essential Oils & Fragrance Oils
 5) - I've tried soaping room temp
 6) - I've tried really cool oils and warmer lye
 7) - I've tried really cool lye and warm oils

But it doesn't really separate, just doesn't have a really smooth look. So it's mostly cosmetic. ( btw, I LOVE my recipes  they're amazing  )
It also doesn't have that "look" on all batches. I can do, say Mango Lemonade, one week, and it turns out beautifully. So I use that recipe and temperatures the next week for another batch. It separates slightly. It also sometimes and whatever batch it feels like ( doesn't matter which one) sticks to my knife at the bottom of a bar and breaks off. Another cosmetic issue, bars with broken bottoms.

WHY????

The only thing I haven't changed is using goats milk. Now, I use my own Goats' Milk, and it's very, very creamy. Like very creamy. ( makes amazing fudge...) And it separates in the freezer. 
I also use silicon molds.

Does the weather have anything to do with it? I've tried everything I know of to try fix this, and it's NOT WORKING  So it's getting discouraging, cause I really like a smooth looking bar of soap.)

My recipes in general consist of Coconut, Olive (herbal infused, if that makes a difference) Pastured Lard, and Castor, Apricot Kernel, Sweet Almond and some have specialty butters. Not a lot, generally around 5% more or less.

Any ideas of what's going on?http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## snappyllama (Sep 2, 2015)

Have you tried soaping at room temp without known heating scents (like clove) and putting it into the fridge overnight?  Are you getting cracks - is that what you see as not being smooth?

ETA: maybe a picture of the "not smooth' surface would help.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 2, 2015)

If you could post some pictures of the problem maybe we can help out.   Perhaps your recipe with your process too.  There has to be a reason  you are having so many problems.


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 2, 2015)

snappyllama said:


> Have you tried soaping at room temp without known heating scents (like clove) and putting it into the fridge overnight?  Are you getting cracks - is that what you see as not being smooth?
> 
> ETA: maybe a picture of the "not smooth' surface would help.



No, I haven't tried that. I left the soap in the fridge for a couple hours, till it was firm and cold, but overnight it heated up again ( I'm guessing...couldn't look at it at that point )

Nope, no cracks. Here are some pictures of varying "looks": ( note: these soaps are all different recipes, to show that the oils don't really matter, it seems like)

This is a soap made with the FO "Dragons Blood". 




This is a soap made with the FO "Lime & Sugarcane" with a sugar topping ( smells AMAZING, love this FO!) Showing the not smooth look and broken bottom.



Soap made with Essential Oils of Rosemary & Peppermint:



And this is a a salt soap with EO's of Tea Tree & Lime, so totally different recipe: ( the holes are salt) Cut at 6 or so hours and pictured at 3-4 weeks old.




http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

Oh, I do cold process Goats Milks Soaps.

There should be a reason...I just haven't found it...so need some new perspectives on the situation!


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## DeeAnna (Sep 2, 2015)

Your soap honestly doesn't look like it overheated to me - I'd expect separation, "alien brains", cracks, etc. for a soap that got overly warm. Yours looks fine. No cracks. No separation. No alien brains. Warming up is normal for saponification, and your soap looks pretty normal to me. What I do see are speckles in the soap, which aren't due to overheating. The speckles may be due to your soaping method or your general approach to recipe making, so posting your recipe (weights, please, no percentages!)  and your general method may be more helpful.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 2, 2015)

I agree with Deeanna. As for you salt soap it's likely you just waited too long to cut it. I cut my salt bars at 2-3 hours or so.


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## Seawolfe (Sep 2, 2015)

Im not seeing why you think its overheating? Do you just not want it to gel?


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 2, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Your soap honestly doesn't look like it overheated to me - I'd expect separation, "alien brains", cracks, etc. for a soap that got overly warm. Yours looks fine. No cracks. No separation. No alien brains. Warming up is normal for saponification, and your soap looks pretty normal to me. What I do see are speckles in the soap, which aren't due to overheating. The speckles may be due to your soaping method or your general approach to recipe making, so posting your recipe (weights, please, no percentages!)  and your general method may be more helpful.



Okay, thanks for clearing that up 
I expect it to warm up, and just couldn't really figure out what it the speckling look to be called.



Seawolfe said:


> Im not seeing why you think its overheating? Do you just not want it to gel?



That separated look, but it wasn't really separated/overheated. Kind of, I guess


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## Obsidian (Sep 2, 2015)

The cracked bottoms are most likely from waiting too long to cut or from using a knife with a thick blade. Switching to a wire cutter would probably help with that. How log are you waiting before you cut?

Not sure what the little specks are in the top two bars, maybe air bubbles or steric spots?


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 2, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> What I do see are speckles in the soap, which aren't due to overheating. The speckles may be due to your soaping method or your general approach to recipe making, so posting your recipe (weights, please, no percentages!)  and your general method may be more helpful.



So what are the speckles caused by?


Soaping method:
Generally is, melt my oils, cool them down to below 30*C. Mix my EO's, FO's, clays, etc. Mix my lye/milk ( milk is mostly frozen, a little bit is liquid) Try keep that below/around 30*C. Mix oil/lye/milk to light trace. Add clays/salts. Mix and add scents. At a medium trace pour into mold. Let set. Cut 12-24 hours later.

General approach to recipe making:
Well, that's a little harder to explain....generally start with the 30% Coconut, 30% OO, 20-25% Lard. And play with the remaining 15-20% with castor oil, apricot kernel oil, etc. I am still working on finding my "dream" recipe that I can use for everything, kind of  hard cause I tend to over complicate it! So I use a couple different recipes yet.


Recipes: ( I use SoapMaker 3 for my recipes) And of course I have more recipes then these...don't all soapers ...but these are my mostly used/recent-er recipes (if that makes sense, lol)

This is the Rosemary/Peppermint recipe:
8.4oz Herbal Infused OO
7.2oz Coconut
6oz Lard
1.2oz each of Castor & Apricot Kernel Oils
3.1oz Lye
7.7oz Goat Milk

So far I'm liking that one. Have to try it out yet 
On some of my past recipes I leave out the Apricot Kernel Oil and just up the first 3 oils to make up the difference.

Recipe used for Lime & Sugarcane:
6oz Coconut
8oz Infused OO
6oz Lard
2oz Shea Butter
2.8oz Lye
6.9oz Goat Milk

Recipe used for Dragons Blood:
6.6oz Infused OO
5.3oz Lard
5.3oz Coconut
1.1oz Castor Oil
1.1oz Avocado
.9oz Cocoa Butter
.9oz Shea Butter
2.8oz Lye
6.8oz Goat Milk

And this is the salt soap recipe: ( I upped the salt 4oz from my last batch of salt soap, because I wanted more grittiness, so we'll see how this one is. Love the lather on the last batch!)

11.2oz Coconut
4oz OO
.8oz Castor 
2oz Lye
5.9oz Goat Milk
12oz salt


Hope this helps you all figure it out


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 2, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> The cracked bottoms are most likely from waiting too long to cut or from using a knife with a thick blade. Switching to a wire cutter would probably help with that. How log are you waiting before you cut?
> 
> Not sure what the little specks are in the top two bars, maybe air bubbles or steric spots?



Okay, I was wondering. Cause I do just use a standard kitchen knife. Were would I get a wire cutter in Canada?
Generally it's around 12 hours at which I cut it.


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## Obsidian (Sep 2, 2015)

I would cut a bit sooner, if you use a lot of hard oils like lard and/or butter it can make a more brittle soap. I can cut my high lard soap around 8 hours.
Not sure where you can get a proper soap cutter but a wire cheese cutter works well and can be found in most grocery stores or baking supply store.


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## dillsandwitch (Sep 3, 2015)

I get the same sorta look on some of my soaps. I find its tiny weeny little air bubbles in there from either being careless with my SB or not banging the mould on the counter enough or hard enough. its purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the soap in any way. At least in mine. Im sure yours would be the same


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## RogueRose (Sep 3, 2015)

I think you should post some good soap pics as well.  I don't think these look that bad.  Ideally you could do a side by side (either cut bars in half and take pics, or use image editor and copy them) to make it easier to see.  

I wonder if this isn't just a case of "maker perfection" where it is fine to others/user, but it bothers the person who made it.  It seems a common issue with people who make things 

Also, the bottom breaking - let me guess, you are cutting with a knife or blade of some type. A wire cutter can relieve this issue or try pulling the knife towards you once you hit the cutting board until it is out of the soap.  Another thing is to put the soap on top of something dense (like soap or wax) that can be cut into - cut through the soap into the soap/wax block below and that breaking bottom issue can be avoided.


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## navigator9 (Sep 3, 2015)

dillsandwitch said:


> I get the same sorta look on some of my soaps. I find its tiny weeny little air bubbles in there from either being careless with my SB or not banging the mould on the counter enough or hard enough. its purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the soap in any way. At least in mine. Im sure yours would be the same



For what its worth, banging the mold on the counter will help to remove large air pockets, like if you glopped mashed potato-thick batter into your mold, but it will not remove the tiny little air bubbles caused by air trapped in the bell of your SB, or air sucked down the shaft of the SB.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 3, 2015)

Indeed - but you may want to keep your PPE on, as some people have been known to bang too vigorously and the batter can glop out and it will still be caustic


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## snappyllama (Sep 3, 2015)

Most of the pictures look like air bubbles to me too. I get them from air bubbles in my oils if I don't pour my liquid oils down the side of something while measuring them. They look like champagne bubbles. Sometimes leaving them in a pot for a bit lets the teeny bubbles to work their way to the surface and pop. No amount of banging the mold will make them go away once they are in the batter (I've tried).


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## newbie (Sep 3, 2015)

I agree with the others in thinking there are loads of small bubbles in the soap causing the appearance you are trying to improve. Pay really close attention the next time you make soap, even to the sound of the SB. I can hear when air is getting incorporated because the sound is rougher and clearer. When the bell is completely submerged and all air out from under the bell, the sound of the blending if muffled and smoother sounding. You can also see if air is getting in there from the look of the soap right at the surface while you're blending it. It should be extremely smooth and glassy in its reflection of light. If it looks at all pebbly or frothy or rough, there are air bubbles in there. 

Otherwise your soap looks great!


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## not_ally (Sep 3, 2015)

Very good advice, Newb.


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 3, 2015)

RogueRose said:


> I think you should post some good soap pics as well.  I don't think these look that bad.  Ideally you could do a side by side (either cut bars in half and take pics, or use image editor and copy them) to make it easier to see.



Will do!



RogueRose said:


> I wonder if this isn't just a case of "maker perfection" where it is fine to others/user, but it bothers the person who made it.  It seems a common issue with people who make things



Hehe, got me there!  I'm a perfectionist...I'll get pictures of some of my soaps that I want ALL my soaps to look like.



RogueRose said:


> Also, the bottom breaking - let me guess, you are cutting with a knife or blade of some type. A wire cutter can relieve this issue or try pulling the knife towards you once you hit the cutting board until it is out of the soap.  Another thing is to put the soap on top of something dense (like soap or wax) that can be cut into - cut through the soap into the soap/wax block below and that breaking bottom issue can be avoided.



Yup, I'm using a knife, and a rather thick one. Am going to try find a wire cutter soon!

http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



newbie said:


> I agree with the others in thinking there are loads of small bubbles in the soap causing the appearance you are trying to improve. Pay really close attention the next time you make soap, even to the sound of the SB. I can hear when air is getting incorporated because the sound is rougher and clearer. When the bell is completely submerged and all air out from under the bell, the sound of the blending if muffled and smoother sounding. You can also see if air is getting in there from the look of the soap right at the surface while you're blending it. It should be extremely smooth and glassy in its reflection of light. If it looks at all pebbly or frothy or rough, there are air bubbles in there.
> 
> Otherwise your soap looks great!



Okay 
I tap the SB bell to get the air out, but when I add my clays/salts or whatever, they bring air in...how do I get around that? I can definitely hear the air in the bell when I add them. Thanks for the look-for tips!

Thank you!


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## newbie (Sep 3, 2015)

How do you add your clays and salts? If you already have your bell cleared of air, maybe you can leave it sit in the batter and use a spatula or spoon to stir the additives into the top of the batter first, and then resume SB'ing. Maybe?


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 3, 2015)

newbie said:


> How do you add your clays and salts? If you already have your bell cleared of air, maybe you can leave it sit in the batter and use a spatula or spoon to stir the additives into the top of the batter first, and then resume SB'ing. Maybe?



I put them on top of my batter, and then SB them in. And I get a lot of air noise that way.


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 10, 2015)

Here's some pictures of soap I want ALL my soaps to look like: ( these are really old, and don't have salts. And only the brown soap has white clay, they are both FO, goats milk, CP soaps.






And here's a comparison picture:


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## nsmar4211 (Sep 10, 2015)

I have the same spots, and in my case it's air bubbles. Some days the SB just seems to want to suck everything in , some days it behaves and I haven't figured it out. Maybe you can try a deeper narrow pot to mix in if yours pulls the batter so far down it grabs air?


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## galaxyMLP (Sep 10, 2015)

SoapyGoats said:


> I put them on top of my batter, and then SB them in. And I get a lot of air noise that way.



Try mixing in the clays be hand first with a spatula/spoon so that they arent all sitting on top. Then, put the stick blender in a "burp" it to get the air out by tapping it on the bottom of the container at a slant. That will help reduce the tiny bubbles a lot! And thats what they look like to me, tiny bubbles.


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 10, 2015)

nsmar4211 said:


> I have the same spots, and in my case it's air bubbles. Some days the SB just seems to want to suck everything in , some days it behaves and I haven't figured it out. Maybe you can try a deeper narrow pot to mix in if yours pulls the batter so far down it grabs air?



Didn't think of trying a narrower pot! Will put that into use next time 



galaxyMLP said:


> Try mixing in the clays be hand first with a  spatula/spoon so that they arent all sitting on top. Then, put the stick  blender in a "burp" it to get the air out by tapping it on the bottom  of the container at a slant. That will help reduce the tiny bubbles a  lot! And thats what they look like to me, tiny bubbles. :smile:



Will do  Thanks so much for the help!


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## kumudini (Sep 10, 2015)

Or better yet, mix the clays with some of the oil and add the mix in, then stir it in with a spatula and then SB away. Never bring the SB up above the batter surface until you are done mixing.


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## JuneP (Sep 10, 2015)

*Have this one*

I have this and it works very well. Got mine on Amazon.com.

June



Obsidian said:


> I would cut a bit sooner, if you use a lot of hard oils like lard and/or butter it can make a more brittle soap. I can cut my high lard soap around 8 hours.
> Not sure where you can get a proper soap cutter but a wire cheese cutter works well and can be found in most grocery stores or baking supply store.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 12, 2015)

snappyllama said:


> Most of the pictures look like air bubbles to me too. I get them from air bubbles in my oils if I don't pour my liquid oils down the side of something while measuring them. They look like champagne bubbles. Sometimes leaving them in a pot for a bit lets the teeny bubbles to work their way to the surface and pop. No amount of banging the mold will make them go away once they are in the batter (I've tried).



Ah ha! That might explain some of the teeny tiny bubbles in my soaps. Personally, I don't mind the bubbles, they look sorta rustic. But it's good to know where they're coming from so I know how to prevent them in future


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 25, 2015)

Okay, soap-maker-problem-fixer-people  Still having that "look" in my soap! What now?

I:
-Made sure all air was out of bell
-Mixed salt/clay in with a spatula
-Cut at 7-8 hours.

And I fixed the broken bottoms  They look better now. BUT I still have that grainy look  
So, my conclusions are:
-Either my molds keep it too warm ( they are silicon)
-My milk fats separate
-I don't know what the problem is 

I made 4 soaps today, and here are pictures. All the soaps are made with the exact same recipe.
These are made with the fragrance oil "Coffee Cake & Spice". And it turned pink. The nice looking part is what I want in all my soaps!





And this is made with the Fragrance Maple Cream.



This is French Pear.



And this is Oak Barrel Cider Type

http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 25, 2015)

SoapyGoats said:


> These are made with the fragrance oil "Coffee Cake & Spice". And it turned pink. The nice looking part is what I want in all my soaps!



That FO discolors to pink? Who makes it?


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## Dana89 (Sep 25, 2015)

I certainly can,t tell you how to fix it but I get this look a lot when using Kaolin clay. The last 2 times I put it in dry during mixing/emulsification with the blender running and I did not gel. They looked great.


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## Susie (Sep 25, 2015)

If you could post your entire recipe in weights(include lye, water, and all additives), it would help us narrow down the possibilities.


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 26, 2015)

gigisiguenza said:


> That FO discolors to pink? Who makes it?



I got it from New Directions Aromatics. I'm hoping it will turn darker as it gets older.




Susie said:


> If you could post your entire recipe in  weights(include lye, water, and all additives), it would help us narrow  down the possibilities.



Recipe:

8.4 oz Olive Oil
7.2oz Coconut
6oz Lard
1.2oz Castor
1.2 oz Apricot Kernel

3.2oz Lye
7.7oz Goat Milk

1 TBSP Clay
1 TBSP Dendritic Salt ( this is the help hold the scent longer)
.7oz FO


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## Susie (Sep 26, 2015)

I was not familiar with dendritic salt, so I looked it up.  

"Morton Salt is the only manufacturer of dendritic salt. Star Flake® Dendritic Salt is a high purity, food grade salt formed in porous, *star-shaped modified cubes*. Its unique and diverse physical properties result in low bulk density, a rapid dissolving rate, exceptional flow characteristics, strong blendability, unmatched liquid adsorption and a quick, salty sensation."

This is from the Morton Salt company website.  

Do you have a link that explains why you think the salt will fix the scent? (maybe I just missed that info when researching the subject)  

Most FOs/EOs intended for use in CP soap will not require a fixative.  Unless you use citrus EOs.  

But, I would look to the salt for the explanation of what is happening.  The rest of your recipe looks fine.  I would do a batch with no salt or clay, then one with no clay, then one with no salt just to confirm if it is either of those, and how your scent sticks or not with and without those.


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## Sphynxbabies (Sep 26, 2015)

Hi There,

Third gen soap maker here.... specs look like lye which would explain the excessive heat. What do you test your soaps with?


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 26, 2015)

Susie said:


> I was not familiar with dendritic salt, so I looked it up.
> 
> "Morton Salt is the only manufacturer of dendritic salt. Star Flake® Dendritic Salt is a high purity, food grade salt formed in porous, *star-shaped modified cubes*. Its unique and diverse physical properties result in low bulk density, a rapid dissolving rate, exceptional flow characteristics, strong blendability, unmatched liquid adsorption and a quick, salty sensation."
> 
> ...



This is what Saffire Blue says about it:
"Dendritic salt is a very fine grain, star shaped salt which has been   crystallized to provide increased surface area.  Because of its low bulk   density and high surface area, dendritic salt is used to prevent   clumping or when rapid dissolution or even mixing with other ingredients   is needed.  *Dendritic Salt has a special star-shaped molecular   structure that “grabs on” to your fragrance or essential oil molecules   and keeps them from being oxidized by the magnesium in the salts.* *Adding   approximately 5 % - 10 % of dentritic salt makes for a longer shelf   life for your salt formulations and makes the fragrance stay true   longer. * When using to make bath salts mix your fragrance or essential   oil with your dendritic salts and then blend the dendritic salts into   your other salts ensuring that you mix them well."

http://www.saffireblue.ca/shop/salts-lye/dendritic-salt

Maybe I understood it wrong  Since it keeps mentioning salt formulations. That's what comes of not reading something completely! 

Will try some batches with no salt/clay, one with salt, one with clay and see what happens 




Sphynxbabies said:


> Hi There,
> 
> Third gen soap maker here.... specs look like lye which would explain  the excessive heat. What do you test your soaps with?



Do you mean that it looks like there is too much lye? ( SoapMaker 3 did that recipe up) I don't use anything to test yet...any one you would recommend that works really well?


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## navigator9 (Sep 26, 2015)

Have you tried switching stick blenders? Sometimes it isn't air that's trapped under the bell, but air that gets sucked down the shaft of the blender. My $10 back up blender doesn't do this, but my more expensive Cuisinart does.


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## cmzaha (Sep 26, 2015)

Sphynxbabies said:


> Hi There,
> 
> Third gen soap maker here.... specs look like lye which would explain the excessive heat. What do you test your soaps with?


I would agree the specks are teensy tiny air bubbles. I get this with one of my sb's and really do not stress it. Never stopped anyone from buying the soap or even asking what the tiny specks. 
No, your lye is not to high and you would have know if you had that much undissolved lye in your lye solution.


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## Seawolfe (Sep 26, 2015)

Fwiw I mix my clays into a slurry with the water allotment before adding. And that first pic of the red soap is just partial gel. For any soap that doesn't use salt or need a thick trace, try pouring at a thin or thinner trace - that won't hold air bubbles as easy. 

For cutting salt bars, you need to cut as soon as is physically possible, which can be within 4-8 hours.


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## kumudini (Sep 26, 2015)

My cuisinart doesn't suck any air in. I do sometimes manage to not clear the bell, as a result mix in plenty of air bubbles, but none of them show up in my final bar for some reason, may be few stearic spots here and there or bigger air bubbles when I manage to end up with thick pudding batter but none of the tiny ones. What those specks look like to me is the specks I got from the Dead Sea salt (6-7% of oils) in my salt bar. That salt is quite abrasive too, no matter their size. Dunno what to with the 5 pounds I have .  I'm thinking that it might be the salt in your recipe as well. Why it's concentrated in one area in one of your soaps, I can't think of a reason.


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 26, 2015)

navigator9 said:


> Have you tried switching stick blenders? Sometimes it isn't air that's trapped under the bell, but air that gets sucked down the shaft of the blender. My $10 back up blender doesn't do this, but my more expensive Cuisinart does.



No, I haven't. Wow, didn't know sb's could do that too.



Seawolfe said:


> Fwiw I mix my clays into a slurry with the water  allotment before adding. And that first pic of the red soap is just  partial gel. For any soap that doesn't use salt or need a thick trace,  try pouring at a thin or thinner trace - that won't hold air bubbles as  easy.
> 
> For cutting salt bars, you need to cut as soon as is physically possible, which can be within 4-8 hours.



Will try mixing clay into earlier  I suspected that....I like the look of the un-gelled part. I'll try pouring at a lighter trace as well.



Vkumudini said:


> I'm thinking that it might be the salt in your recipe as well. Why  it's concentrated in one area in one of your soaps, I can't think of a  reason.



Okay. Definitely am going to try some without the salt!


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## Seawolfe (Sep 26, 2015)

To my tiny mind, it's easier to encourage gel than to prevent it, largely because I have no room in my freezer, and I don't like cutting un gelled soap. But other people (I'm looking at you Carolyn!) are wizards at not gelling. Find out what works for you.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 26, 2015)

I've only had 3 batches gel on me, I didn't want gel on two but I forgot to refrigerate so it happened. And all I do is sit the mold on a metal cookie sheet with parchment paper under the mold, then slide the whole thing in the fridge. I leave it there for anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour then take it our and let it sit and do its thing. I don't really like the look or texture of the gelled soaps, but I haven't been specifically designing for it, so who knows, I might like it down the road.


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 28, 2015)

Tried your guys tips today:

Made one batch with just salt
Made one batch with just clay
Made one batch with neither

Used the same sb for all. So we'll see how they turn out!


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## SoapyGoats (Sep 29, 2015)

It's fixed!!! IT'S FIXED!!!! 
Yes, it was the salt  Here are my latest soaps  The lighter soap is FO frosted berries - white clay no salt.
The pink-ish soap is FO Pumpkin Patch no clay or salt.http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## penelopejane (Oct 3, 2015)

Wow that was worth the effort.  What very beautiful soap!  Did you get the orange colour infusing the oil with pumpkin? 

I guess save the salt for a special salt soap where the texture is a given!


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## SoapyGoats (Oct 9, 2015)

penelopejane said:


> Wow that was worth the effort.  What very beautiful soap!  Did you get the orange colour infusing the oil with pumpkin?
> 
> I guess save the salt for a special salt soap where the texture is a given!



Thanks! Nope, the FO did that  And yes, that salt isn't going into most of my soaps now.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 17, 2015)

Hi, sorry, have been away.  No I'm not suggesting too much lye, just undissolved lye and that may not be visible to you when adding it to your batch, they are very minute particles that for whatever reason just don't dissolve.  Testing your soap will tell you if it is lye.  I own soap stores, 3 of them and have taught soap making classes for 25 yrs. I do not bring in any product from outside, all soap is made on premises.  I also jury a National Artisans Festival the Soap/Toiletries Catagory where I test each entry's soap to see if it is caustic.  About 40% consistently test positive to undissolved lye. I see a lot of complaining about the Government stepping in with regulations for soap makers but without some sort of protocol, these caustic soaps would all make it to market and could potentially harm the public.  Test your soaps ladies....zap testing is not acceptable.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 17, 2015)

You say to test, but you don't provide your method of testing nor do you define your standards for what is acceptable. Testing after the fact is not going to help when you're making soap, so I assume you follow a particular protocol to ensure safety, but you don't explain any details about that either. Would you please explain further or provide a source that offers more specific information?


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## JayJay (Oct 17, 2015)

Sphynxbabies said:


> Hi, sorry, have been away.  No I'm not suggesting too much lye, just undissolved lye and that may not be visible to you when adding it to your batch, they are very minute particles that for whatever reason just don't dissolve.  Testing your soap will tell you if it is lye.  I own soap stores, 3 of them and have taught soap making classes for 25 yrs. I do not bring in any product from outside, all soap is made on premises.  I also jury a National Artisans Festival the Soap/Toiletries Catagory where I test each entry's soap to see if it is caustic.  About 40% consistently test positive to undissolved lye. I see a lot of complaining about the Government stepping in with regulations for soap makers but without some sort of protocol, these caustic soaps would all make it to market and could potentially harm the public.  Test your soaps ladies....zap testing is not acceptable.



I also would like to know how to test for undissolved lye... And how to know when it's REALLY dissolved when making the solution other than looking at the solution for visible particles.  

In this particular case it was revealed that the spots were not undisolved lye. But for conversation's sake, I would like to know about your experience with this. Is his what undissolved lye looks like? Wouldn't this be a tremendous amount of unsdisolved lye? I would imagine a lye spot here and there, but nothing like this.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 17, 2015)

Well, it's not my standards you have to be concerned about it is the Governments and if you are questioning ph levels then I would have to ask for which part of the body as they are all different.    And testing after the fact is the _only_ way to insure the results as hand crafted soap is just that, hand crafted, and human error is a factor.  Low batts or just sub standard scales, Lye that has been affected by moisture,  incorrect sap values,  miscalculations, undissolved lye (there is no absolute way to know visually if all the lye is properly dissolved) etc.    No tests that we have access to are 100% conclusive but  "Phenolphthalein" liquid( not the strips) will give you a reliable indicator if lye is present.  Strips are of no use as you have to use them on a soap "dilution" so results are from a weakened and diluted base.   You need to have a science based test. Licking your soap is not and I would love to know why it is accepted as an accurate assessment.  If there is enough caustic chemical residing in your soap so that it zaps your tongue, what is the  PH level ?  And what is the  PH level that can go undetected by zap testing and who is to say one persons tongue is not more tolerant than someone else's?  Soaps I have tested that have been determined caustic with Phenolphthalein ...tested _neutral_ to zap.  We have a responsibility to make sure our soaps are not harmful which means using the means available to us at whatever the cost or inconvenience incurred.  Otherwise we have no business offering our soaps to anyone. 
*
*

*
*


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## commoncenz (Oct 17, 2015)

This ought to be good ...


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 17, 2015)

There's just no way Jay Jay to know for sure.  Some batches will just turn out that way no matter how your lye/water looks.  The specs can be soooo tiny you would never suspect it to be lye.  Best to test always.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 17, 2015)

I turn your question around - at a given pH, or a given Pheno reading, is there always excess lye present?  As in, what does the pH tell us?  If you say that the pH tells us if a soap is safe or not, then which pH is safe and which isn't?  Is there a set point where a soap goes from being safe to unsafe?

These soaps that were caustic with pheno but not zap - how were they to use?  How were they tested with Pheno?


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 17, 2015)

Hi, 
If you use Phenol to test you have a range of colour indicators that will tell you if lye is present.  If the test bar once tested has no colour present at all then the soap will comply for human use. The colour range is from clear (safe) to fuschia (caustic) .  The only acceptable result is 100% clear.  There are many sites available that can explain the interaction between Phenol and sodium hydroxide if you google it.  In a perfectly 'safe' bar there will be only a completely 'clear' reading, not clear with a pink rim, pale pink, etc.  If a batch tests slightly positive during the initial batch test, then I leave it for another week and keep testing till it is completely clear.  If the batch does not ever show 100% 'clear' it is thrown out no matter how faint the 'pink' indicator shows. Phenol is your best and highest indicator to determine whether you soap has unsafe levels of Lye.  Ph levels are a different level of testing and again there are lots of websites that will go thru the ph levels for the different parts of the body including shampoo's etc.  You can scale your product line by way of recipe for the different levels for different areas of the body.  Ph level of 7 is considered neutral equal acid/alkaline and about 5.5 is on average for our skin.  It varies from body part to body part.  Simplified, Ph levels go from 1 - 14  anything under 7 is acid anything over is alkaline which is why 7 is considered neutral.  I hate when these get really long so I'll tell you this.  I had a soapmaker come into my store who brought in a sample of her soap that was five years old that she wanted me to look at.  I cut a bar and it literally shattered.  She said her daughters wouldn't use it anymore.  I tested her 5 yr old bars and they turned pink.  I told her not to use them.  Her husband said "well , I'm going to keep using them I like the way they make my skin tingle".    So, they were burning his skin, and that is the liability of selling soap that has not been tested or that tests positive in any shade of pink.  Again, just because it doesn't zap you, does not mean that everyone who buys your soap has the same tolerances.  Many people have skin conditions or are overtly sensitive.  Let's not forget Lye is a chemical.   I think it would be very risky to stand before a judge and offer the "zap test" as your method of quality control.


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## skayc1 (Oct 17, 2015)

the newer soaps look great!


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## notapantsday (Oct 17, 2015)

Not disagreeing with anything that's been said here, just some points to avoid confusion:

1. Phenolphtalein doesn't test specifically for NaOH. It's a pH indicator so it will show a reaction with everything that increases the pH value.

2. The point where phenolphtalein turns from pink to clear is at a pH of about 8.2, which is still not neutral. It may be a good rule of thumb to say that at this point, soap is safe to use. But it has nothing to do with the soap being neutral or no more NaOH being present (which is both incorrect).

3. Soap itself is basic, even if (in theory) it has absolutely no NaOH left in it. Just a very simple explanation: Whenever a base and an acid come together, they create a salt. If they both have about the same strength, they create a pH-neutral salt. For example, hydrochloric acid (HCl) is a very strong acid and sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is a very strong base. If you put them together in the right amounts, they make regular table salt which is pH-neutral. In our case we have fatty acids, which are very weak acids and on the other hand sodium hydroxide, which is a very strong base. This imbalance results in a salt that is not neutral but basic, even if (again, theoretically) there is no more NaOH left.


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## JayJay (Oct 17, 2015)

Sphynxbabies said:


> There's just no way Jay Jay to know for sure.  Some batches will just turn out that way no matter how your lye/water looks.  The specs can be soooo tiny you would never suspect it to be lye.  Best to test always.



When you test with pheno, do you squirt it directly onto the soap?  Or do you make a solution with the soap first?  I've seen videos where people squirt it directly onto the soap but I have also read that a solution should be made with the soap first so that the soap is present only in a specific concentration. 

I zap test. Which, I must admit, scares me sometimes. I think, "what if this soap is going to burn a hole in my tongue! " But it never does. I got zapped only once or twice and it wasn't so bad. Still I am curious about your method.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 17, 2015)

To take a test with Phenol I cut into the batch and sacrifice 3 bars from different areas.  Then one drop of Phenol onto the open cut of the bars with the soap dry with no dilution. Any pink and it is a no go for another week.  It is a very simple, quite reliable test and you can feel quite safe that your soap is not going to burn anyone once all tests clear. To test actual Ph levels then use the test strips (plastic seem to be the most accurate) and reference the colour charts to find the corresponding Ph level that matches the test strip colour.  For this test you must wet the soap to have something to dip the test strip into, so dilution is a must even though it can weaken the results.



notapantsday said:


> Not disagreeing with anything that's been said here, just some points to avoid confusion:
> 
> Agreed, so what do you suggest for testing?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 18, 2015)

Once we eliminate the tests that make no sense, we will be left with ones that tell us something. 

Ph- as discussed, only tells us the pH, not if there is excess lye. Not all soaps have the same pH, so it is not helpful without testing a known safe batch of a recipe to have a benchmark for future use. For that, we need an initial safety test. 

Pheno - also a pH indicator, not a lye-detector. A well made soap with no excess lye could be in the pink ranges or even the higher pink ranges and still be safe - there are perfectly safe soaps with 12.5pH readings, so pheno would give us a false positive there. It again falls in to the trap of needing an initial benchmark to be even close to useful. 

There is a chemist method of testing, but as I couldn't even begin to explain it, there is no way I could see myself doing it regularly. It would actually give us the answer, but is not practical. 

That leaves zap testing. Variations in mouth pH aside, the easiest and surest method of testing for excess lye. 

While you might not agree with zap testing, the first two points are not actually opinion - strips and pheno are pH indicators which do not, on their own, tell us if a soap is safe or not.


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## commoncenz (Oct 18, 2015)

Interesting older article from Millersoaps.com wherein she tested a commercial soap and two of her handcrafted soaps using a pH meter and various types of pH strips. I'll leave it to you all to debate the conclusions etc. However, there were some interesting takeaways (to me):

1. Anyone expecting all soap to be "safe" at a ph reading of 7 is being overly critical/cautious as generally accepted research has suggested that a pH of 9.5 - 10 is normal for soap.

2. Apparently surfactants can throw off the indicators of some pH strips by as much as 2-3 units.

3. There is variation in pH readings depending on which type/manufacturer of pH strip you use. 

It's early in the AM here and I haven't slept well, so I will reread the article after I get some sleep. Might even do a little more reading on the subject. But it seems to me that if a pH meter is the most accurate tool for measuring pH, those who are advocating that no soap is safe unless it has been pH tested as such should spare no reasonable expense in making sure that they have a pH meter.

Edit: I really was suffering from restless sleep. I forgot to add the link this morning.

http://www.millersoap.com/phtome.html


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

I don't think our skin cares whether there is excess lye or whether the soap just happens to be very basic by itself. What's important is the pH value. As long as it is diluted enough, NaOH is not a problem.

Besides, what really happens when we dissolve soap in water? Soap is a salt of the fatty acids (FA) and sodium (Na), so when they dissociate we get Na⁺-ions and FA⁻-ions. Some of the FA⁻-ions bond with free H⁺ from the water (autoprotolysis) and turn back into undissociated fatty acids. What remains when more and more H⁺ are removed from the water? OH⁻ of course.

So in the end, we have Na⁺ in the water just like we have OH⁻. Which is the same result we get when we dissolve NaOH in the water. It really shouldn't make a difference whether there is NaOH left in the soap or whether it just happens to be basic because it is soap.

I don't think we need a test specifically for residual NaOH, we just need to test the pH.



Sphynxbabies said:


> Agreed, so what do you suggest for testing?



I think there's nothing wrong with phenolphthalein, you seem to have good experience with it.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 18, 2015)

Again, I have to ask what is a good pH and what is a bad pH? What is safe and what is unsafe? Is it always the same for different recipes? 

If not, then what does pH actually help with?


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

I can't really speak from experience since I'm rather new to soaping but I'd say pH is just one of many factors. There are pH levels that are definitely unsafe (14 or higher) and there are levels that are definitely safe (7-8). But there's a grey area, where other factors like skin type, superfat, oil composition or exposure time should be important too. That's how I would explain that are soaps that appear to be safe at pH 12, while others are very aggressive at pH 10.

If your soap is at pH 8, you know it's safe. That would be a good reason for pH testing to me.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 18, 2015)

But the biggest problem with that is that a soap can have a pH of 9 and still be totally safe, based on the recipe. So it will never read 8, it is impossible for it to do so.

Safety of soap is not based on the pH and your skin type or anything like that. Soap suitability, comfort and so on would be, but safety not.


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## Susie (Oct 18, 2015)

I don't need to know the pH of my soap to know if it is safe.  I need to know whether there is free lye or not.  I zap test now, and I will zap test until I stop making soap.  If you folks feel like you need to meet certain pH "guidelines", well, just have at.  I am not going to get rid of perfectly good soap just because it does not reach a certain pH.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 18, 2015)

We have a responsibility to rule out risk.  Phenol helps to rule out that factor. I've never said 'don't zap test'  I've simply said it's time to quit pretending that because you are only selling in small farmers markets or a few local stores that Liability does not apply to you.  I've said  "test your soap" zapping alone is not acceptable.  I've mentioned that I have tested soaps from the Festival Entries that have turned bright fuchsia and the they also tested highly positive to the tongue.   I have also mentioned that I have tested soaps from the Entries that turned bright fuchsia but did not test positive to the tongue.  Soaps that test anything but clear are disqualified.  It is a National Festival with entries from coast to coast and to become a Juror for the Soaps and Toiletries Category you are required to test with Phenol.  So if a Festival with 40,000 visitors, and a bank of Lawyers require Phenol as a critical part of the criteria for testing, attention should be paid.  Is it possible on the soaps that don't zap, that the high PH reaction is to another completely benign ingredient combination, I suppose it could be.  Am I willing to stake everything I own on bars that 'don't' zap, blindly believing they are neutral, based on licking a bar?  I am not.   I have worked with Karl Lagerfeld, Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream, done soap for Oprah, and more.  Heightened awareness of liability grows exponentially when you move into these markets, but _your_ risk of liability is no less than mine.  In Farmers markets here, there is an 'assumed risk" that the consumer bears when buying product acknowledging that the products you are buying are hand made. I would double check where you are that this is correct for your area.  But the minute you place your products in retail stores, that ship has sailed.  And to *Commoncenz:*  I think I remember that article. Old but still relevant.  And that is my point exactly, if you are not willing to do everything that you can to rule out risk in your soaps, you have no business selling soap.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

Now that I know you're using phenolpthalein on solid bar soap, I'll be quite frank. There are no, zero, nada standardized tests used by soap chemists that evaluate the excess alkalinity of soap like this. The supposed testing of pH using phenolpthalein indicator on solid bar soap is the handcrafted soapers equivalent of reading tea leaves in the bottom of a cup to accurately predict someone's future. If this is the gold standard used by festival jurors, I am not impressed.

Soap chemists use an acid titration of a dilute soap solution to determine free alkalinity (excess lye). THIS is the gold standard that should be used by any organization or event representing itself as an impartial and accurate judge of soap quality.

Any pH measurement, whether with phenolpthalein, test strips, or a meter -- is only valid and accurate in dilute solutions, not in concentrated solutions (dampened soap) or solid materials (dry soap). You would flunk a Chemistry 101 lab on pH measurement by telling the lab instructor that, "...dilution is a must even though it can _weaken the results_...."

Measuring the intensity of color visually is a highly subjective test. It is strongly dependent on the lighting intensity, background texture and color, thickness and transparency of the fluid being evaluated, the person's eyesight, etc. When chemists DO use a visual determination of color for a particular test, they use a standardized equipment and procedures and compare the unknown against calibrated visual standards.

But what is most important, even if you insist on using this kind of test -- the fact remains that using a set pH to determine whether a soap is safe or not is wholly inaccurate. It totally overlooks the fact that soap pH depends on the fatty acid content of the soap. Pure oleic soaps and stearic soaps have the highest pH of 11.2 to 11.4. The other soaps -- myristic, lauric, palmitic, linoleic, and linolenic -- have pH values in the low to mid 10s. Source: Dunn, Kevin. Scientific Soapmaking. 2010. If all of the lye has been perfectly reacted leaving no excess alkalinity in any of these soaps, phenolpthalein in a dilute solution of these soaps WILL ALWAYS show pink. 

Why phenolpthalein sometimes is colorless, light pink, or dark pink on solid bar soap, whether dry or damp, strongly depends on the crystalline and colloidal structure of each particular soap every bit as much as it does on the presence or not of any free alkali in that soap.

Important safety note:
Do not call phenolpthalein by the nickname "phenol". Phenol is a seriously deadly poison and is not remotely the same as phenolpthalein. This is far worse than using the nickname "glycerin" as a shorthand for glycerin soap or melt and pour soap. If you must abbreviate, at least shorten it to pheno or phenol-p or, better yet, use the chemist's nickname of phph.

Other reference material: 
Fischer, Martin. Soaps and Proteins: Their colloid chemistry in theory and practice. 1921.
Spitz, Luis. Soap Manufacturing Technology. 2009.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 18, 2015)

Happy Zapping!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 18, 2015)

I'm just going to leave this here, because frankly I have much better things to do than repeat myself time and time again. 

Pheno can be pink in ranges that are perfectly safe for soap. Clear with pheno does not mean the soap is unsafe, it just means it's got a pH more than 8. That is not a bad thing, soaps can have that and be fine. A soap can have a pH of 11 and be fine. 12 - still safe and good to use. 

The pH alone does not tell you if a soap is safe. Pheno alone doesn't tell you is your soap is safe. 

You reject soaps based on a flawed basis. That is utterly shameful.


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## Susie (Oct 18, 2015)

1.  I live in the USA.  I do not have to follow Canadian guidelines.
2.  I do not sell my soap.  I zap test my soap to determine if it is safe for my skin and my family's skin.
3.  I would like to see your sources for scientific standards of safety.  NOT your government's regulations, actual scientific documentation.  Governments are well known for completely unnecessary regulations in many cases.  If you can prove your information and methods using information from actual scientists, then show us.


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

I repeat myself, but I'm pretty sure that the assumption that "free lye" is in some way inherently dangerous, independent from the pH level, is wrong. 

As I said: when you dissolve pure soap in water, you end up with Na⁺ and OH⁻ in the solution, even if there was absolutely no NaOH left in the (dry) soap. The amount of OH⁻ in the solution directly corresponds with the pH value and it doesn't make any difference whether it comes from NaOH or from soap/self-ionization of water.



DeeAnna said:


> or, better yet, use the chemist's nickname of phph.



Am I the only one who had to laugh trying to imagine how they pronounce it?

"So, what kind of indicator would you recommend?"

"ffffffff"


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

"... I repeat myself, but I'm pretty sure that the assumption that "free lye" is in some way inherently dangerous, independent from the pH level, is wrong...."

I don't know why you are thinking this. "Free lye" in a soap IS dangerous. I have no interest in injuring anyone's skin, including my own, and "free lye" will do exactly that. From what you've said earlier in this thread, I get the impression you may be confusing the idea of excess alkali (free lye) with the idea of the intrinsic alkalinity of a salt of a weak acid. That is the same confusion that leads people to use pH strips or phenolpthalein drops to "test" for pH and make the "common sense" assumption that any high pH result = excess alkalinity (free lye).


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## Susie (Oct 18, 2015)

notapantsday said:


> *I repeat myself, but I'm pretty sure that the assumption that "free lye" is in some way inherently dangerous, independent from the pH level, is wrong.
> *
> As I said: when you dissolve pure soap in water, you end up with Na⁺ and OH⁻ in the solution, even if there was absolutely no NaOH left in the (dry) soap. The amount of OH⁻ in the solution directly corresponds with the pH value and it doesn't make any difference whether it comes from NaOH or from soap/self-ionization of water.
> 
> ...



I think we are having a difference of opinion on the definition of "free lye", rather than the concept.  When I refer to "free lye", we are referring to actual lye crystals or lye water remaining in the soap after saponification.  This happens when someone; mis-weighs oils, lack of getting to actual trace during stickblending and the fats separate back out, overheating of soap that leaves lye water in pockets in the soap.  This type of "free lye" is, indeed, dangerous to bare skin.

If I am wrong in thinking this, please tell me.  I am not trying to disagree with you, just trying to clarify.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 18, 2015)

It just seems strange to me that given so many of you over the years have said 'I wish I could make a living selling my soap' that when given an opportunity to talk with someone who has successfully accomplished exactly that, and supports what you are doing, that you are more intent on disproving a method of testing than considering it.  Short attention spans aside, Phenol is a proven Ph indicator and is a beneficial aid in the assessment of whether a soap is lye heavy.  It is not me you have to be concerned about but the impending regulatory bodies that are already in motion.  You will be required I'm sure as we are here in Canada to register each variation on a soap recipe. If there is an incremental value or a diminishing value of an ingredient, the new variation must be registered as a new 'recipe'.  the weights, ingredients and all of your information are registered and you must submit to inspection of your bars.  No one will be exempt.  Is it a pain...totally but if you want to play in anything other than flea markets and farmers markets then you have to step up.  If you believe that zap test alone is sufficient, I wish you well.  If Phenol testing even removes one caustic bar from the marketplace it is worth it.  I never intimated that it was conclusive, I said so in previous posts in this thread.  All I have said is we need to insure public safety and our own liability.  There is no possible way to test conclusively without a laboratory controlled assessment which is simply not available to us, but we have to do what we can.


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## Susie (Oct 18, 2015)

OK, so you can't prove your information.

We need to at least clear up one thing:

*phenol* 
Also found in: Dictionary/thesaurus, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
phenol [fe´nol]
1. an extremely poisonous compound, used in dilute solution as an antimicrobial, anesthetic, and antipruritic. Ingestion or absorption through the skin causes symptoms including colic, local irritation, corrosion, seizures, cardiac arrhythmias, shock, and respiratory arrest. Phenol should be properly labeled and stored to avoid accidental poisoning. Called also carbolic acid.
2. any of various related organic compounds containing one or more hydroxyl groups attached to an aromatic carbon ring.
phenol coefficient a measure of the bactericidal activity of a chemical compound in relation to phenol. The activity of the compound is expressed as the ratio of dilution in which it kills in 10 minutes but not in 5 minutes under the specified conditions. It can be determined in the absence of organic matter, or in the presence of a standard amount of added organic matter.
Miller-Keane Encyclopedia and Dictionary of Medicine, Nursing, and Allied Health, Seventh Edition. © 2003 by Saunders, an imprint of Elsevier, Inc. All rights reserved.
phe·nol (fē'nol),
Hydroxybenzene; an antiseptic, anesthetic, and disinfectant; locally escharotic in concentrated form and neurolytic in 3-4% solutions; internally, a powerful escharotic poison.
Synonym(s): carbolic acid, phenyl alcohol
Farlex Partner Medical Dictionary © Farlex 2012
phenol /phe·nol/ (fe´nol)
1. an extremely poisonous compound, C6H5OH, which is caustic and disinfectant; used as a pharmaceutic preservative and in dilution as an antimicrobial and topical anesthetic and antipruritic. Poisoning, due to ingestion or transdermal absorption, causes symptoms including colic, local irritation, corrosion, seizures, cardiac arrhythmias, shock, and respiratory arrest.

VS

*Phenolphthalein*
Chemical Compound
Phenolphthalein
Phenolphthalein is a chemical compound with the formula C20H14O4 and is often written as "HIn" or "phph" in shorthand notation. Phenolphthalein is often used as an indicator in acid–base titrations. For this application, it turns colorless in acidic solutions and pink in basic solutions.

en.wikipedia.org 

Also, using your reasoning, if we lock up everyone who could possibly ever commit a crime, then it is worth it...rather than proving that THIS person committed THAT crime.  You are using flawed methods to judge the safety of a soap.  And people depend on selling those products to make a living!


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

Susie said:


> I think we are having a difference of opinion on the definition of "free lye", rather than the concept.  When I refer to "free lye", we are referring to actual lye crystals or lye water remaining in the soap after saponification.  This happens when someone; mis-weighs oils, lack of getting to actual trace during stickblending and the fats separate back out, overheating of soap that leaves lye water in pockets in the soap.  This type of "free lye" is, indeed, dangerous to bare skin.



Oh, ok. I think this really is a misunderstanding, then. I always assumed that the lye is evenly spread within the soap. But of course, if there are crystals or pockets of concentrated lye in the soap, it can be very dangerous no matter what the "average" pH of the soap is. I didn't think of that.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 18, 2015)

And also with the fact that 100g of one soap can need more or less lye than another to saponify based simply on the oils (which is why we can't just swap one oil for another at will without knowing if the lye amount changes) so a 1% solution of one soap can indeed have more 'lye' than another - it doesn't mean that one is less safe just because it has more lye.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

"...There is no possible way to test conclusively without a laboratory controlled assessment which is simply not available to us..."

I agree that most average soapers don't have the ability nor interest to do an acid-titration test for free alkalinity. That is no excuse, however, to use alternative tests that have no valid scientific basis for determining whether a soap really has excess lye or not.

It is absolutely NOT acceptable for festival judges to be determining the quality of contestants' soaps with phenolpthalein as it is used by handcrafted soapers. A nationwide competition should be using a valid, accurate method to determine of free alkalinity (lye heaviness). 

Kevin Dunn explains how to do a non-chemist's version of the free alkalinity test in his Scientific Soapmaking book -- see chapter 15. This method can be done in anyone's kitchen with chemicals commonly available to soapers and with some determined, careful practice.

For official versions of this test as used by the soap making industry, refer to the "Official Methods and Practices of the AOCS" (American Oil Chemist's Society) or "ASTM D 460-91, Standard Test Methods for Sampling and Chemical Analysis of Soaps and Soap Products."


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## commoncenz (Oct 18, 2015)

Sphynxbabies said:


> Omg...lol  I wish you all well. I'm removing myself from this site, there is nothing of interest here for me.



Taking your ball and leaving? That's usually the approach of the intolerant. I for one would welcome you staying and actually providing some scientific backing (studies, etc.) to prove your point. 

However, showing up here or anywhere and self-proclaiming yourself to be an "expert" on a subject without validating your credentials and then ridiculing members of a group for having beliefs in opposition to your own ... well that's usually not the way to get people to listen to what you're saying. Especially when all you're doing is repeating the same things over and over without providing supporting documentation.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

"...But of course, if there are crystals or pockets of concentrated lye in the soap, it can be very dangerous no matter what the "average" pH of the soap is. I didn't think of that. ..."

Oh, gosh, let's just slow down on the wealth of unsubstantiated theorizing, please! 

It's time I jumped on this nonsense about this idea of lye pockets and crystals of lye in soap and the related opinion that "about 40% [of soaps] consistently test positive to undissolved lye". I am concerned that some of our newbie soapers will believe this silliness ... and here we go again with another stupid soaping myth that refuses to die.

NaOH does NOT remain as tiny crystals or pockets in properly made soap. It is such an incredibly reactive chemical that the last thing it will do is stay in small solid crystals or as small pockets of concentrated liquid if given any tiny opportunity to do something else. It would much rather react with water, react with fat, react with the CO2 in the air, and react with any additives to form new chemicals.

While it is true that some soap can have layers or pockets or droplets of caustic liquid in or on it -- but that will be true only IF the saponification process is not entirely done, or IF the soap is inadequately mixed, or IF the soap overheats, or IF the recipe contains too much water-phase liquid. These issues have nothing to do with properly made, fully saponified soap.


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> While it is true that some soap can have layers or pockets or droplets of caustic liquid in or on it -- but that will be true only IF the saponification process is not entirely done, or IF the soap is inadequately mixed, or IF the soap overheats, or IF the recipe contains too much water-phase liquid. These issues have nothing to do with properly made, fully saponified soap.



I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. At least I'm not.

My point was that it doesn't matter whether the soap has a high pH because of excess lye or because the soap itself is basic. We know that different fatty acids can cause different pH levels in the finished soap. So if you make a batch of soap that would usually have a rather low pH, but you use it before it has fully saponified and there are still small amounts of lye left, it's not necessarily more dangerous than a different soap that naturally has the same pH after full saponification. For the human body, it doesn't really make a difference where the high pH comes from (although there may be other relevant factors).

Susie pointed out that in a badly made batch, the lye might be concentrated in some spots, which would make it dangerous. I agreed and you basically repeated the same thing.

I don't see any disagreement here.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

"...My point was that it doesn't matter whether the soap has a high pH because of excess lye or because the soap itself is basic. ... if you use it before it has fully saponified and there are still small amounts of lye left, it's not necessarily more dangerous than a different soap that naturally has the same pH after full saponification. ... For the human body, it doesn't really make a difference where the high pH comes from..." 

No, that is incorrect. There IS a difference. The products of a completed chemical reaction are different than a mix of reactants and products present during a chemical reaction. A soap that is almost but not quite fully saponified is much harsher and decidedly more irritating to the skin than the same soap after it is fully saponified. I know this to be true from direct personal experience as well as from my chemistry background. 

But don't trust me -- try it yourself. 

Carefully.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 18, 2015)

Holy cow.  Can you produce the data that confirms licking a bar of soap will tell you 100% safe for human use? You seem to want to make it a black & white issue.  It's not.  There are all sorts of variables.   All I have said is we need to use whatever methods are available to us to keep soap safe for consumers and that zap testing alone is not acceptable. If you have read the thread you know that I combine the two and yes I am hard line on PH levels because without lab tests you can not possible insure the soap is safe.  So here is my question,  what is the harm of testing with Phenol? That you could be throwing out perfectly good soap? That is possibly true.  And what I am saying is if there is ANY factor of risk that the soap may not be safe due to ANY influence of the hand crafted process it is not worth the risk to sell to the public.   I never said I was an "expert" I think all I said was I was successful.  FDA  has soap makers in their cross hairs.  All I'm saying is safeguard yourselves the best you can. Don't be standing there with the tongue test as your defense.

And *SUSIE* if you had read the posts you would have seen Phenolphthalein was what we were talking about*. *


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

*** geek warning -- serious chemistry to follow ***

To Notapantsday --

Look, after thinking about this some more ... I wonder if what's confusing you is that an important point has been overlooked. 

Saponification is not just about turning a bunch of fatty acids into fatty acid salts. There's more to it. 

Saponification consists of two basic steps. The first is the difficult step of hydrolyzing (breaking up) a triglyceride fat into its main components -- 3 fatty acid molecules and 1 glycerin molecule. This is the part that takes so long when making soap, because this breakdown of the fats is a slow process. The final reaction of the fatty acids into their sodium salts (aka soap) is the simple, fast, and last step in the process. 

It's only after saponification is complete -- when enough fatty acids have been created to react with all of the lye -- that you can actually consider soap finished. Only then can you consider soap to truly be the salt of a weak acid and look at the ability of this salt to maintain a dynamic balance between its ionized and molecular forms and act as a buffer to the pH.

Until the saponification reaction is complete, however, the hydroxide contributed by the lye is in excess. The fats have to be hydrolyzed FIRST before the fatty acids can "neutralize" the excess hydroxide. Until that happens, the "soap" is really not safe to use.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 18, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> *** geek warning -- serious chemistry to follow ***
> 
> I totally agree DeeAnna, properly made soap is safe.  But who determines if it was properly made?  We all take pride in our soap making skills and that our soaps are properly made and completely saponified unless there are telltale visual clues that alert us.  But can you rule out soaps that appear to be completely saponified but in actuality may not?  And how is it best to determine that?


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

Sphinx -- I was the one to say it first and Susie was the second. So yell at me first, not her. 

Susie and I are both reading your posts and we both get the context, but we are also concerned that new soapers reading SMF won't understand your meaning. We all have a responsibility to educate and inform, not to confuse or mislead.

Either use a more acceptable nickname for phenolpthalein or spell it out in full. "Phenol" is a highly dangerous chemical that is not remotely the same as phenolpthalein. The use of "phenol" as a shorthand for phenolpthalein is absolutely not acceptable. 

***

And I am STILL waiting for you to provide valid justification about why your testing method is an acceptable way to determine excess alkalinity. I have trotted out chapter and verse about why it is not. Now cough up the hard data to support your claim or concede you don't have it.


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## Sphynxbabies (Oct 18, 2015)

If there are Moderators viewing please remove me from this site.


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## commoncenz (Oct 18, 2015)

Sphynxbabies said:


> If there are Moderators viewing please remove me from this site.



Your post prior to this was uncalled for, unprofessional and disrespectful. I agree with you. You should be banned. 

However, in the event that you are not, since you don't like what's being said and don't want to see it, just log out and never come back. You have that option.


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## Susie (Oct 18, 2015)

Sphynxbabies said:


> Screw you



Well...I am going with you have no valid scientific proof...again.


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## shunt2011 (Oct 18, 2015)

Screw you[/QUOTE]



Well, I am going with the assumption that you have no valid scientific proof...again.[/QUOTE]


This is unacceptable. All they are asking for is proof. You can't provide it and since you can't you feel is appropriate to attack someone.

Nobody attacked you.  

You are in violation of forum rules. Do no threaten to leave. Just go!


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> A soap that is almost but not quite fully saponified is much harsher and decidedly more irritating to the skin than the same soap after it is fully saponified.



No argument there. But I'm sure you agree that the same soap has a higher pH before complete saponification - and all I'm saying is that it's the higher pH that is harmful or dangerous to the skin.

This is more or less the part I'm disagreeing with:



DeeAnna said:


> But what is most important, even if you insist on using this kind of  test -- the fact remains that using a set pH to determine whether a soap  is safe or not is wholly inaccurate. It totally overlooks the fact that  soap pH depends on the fatty acid content of the soap. Pure oleic soaps  and stearic soaps have the highest pH of 11.2 to 11.4. The other soaps  -- myristic, lauric, palmitic, linoleic, and linolenic -- have pH values  in the low to mid 10s. Source: Dunn, Kevin. Scientific Soapmaking.  2010. If all of the lye has been perfectly reacted leaving no excess  alkalinity in any of these soaps, phenolpthalein in a dilute solution of  these soaps WILL ALWAYS show pink.



My point is, if you have a pure stearic soap that is fully cured at pH 11.3, it's not any more or less dangerous than an incompletely cured soap with the *same pH* (due to a different FA composition). Because if you take that pure stearic soap and dissolve it in water, you get the same Na⁺ and OH⁻ ions that you get when you dissolve NaOH in water. The Na⁺ is coming from the fatty-acid-salt and the OH⁻ is left from the self-ionization of water after the FA⁻ has reacted with the H⁺ to an undissociated fatty acid. The concentration of OH⁻ has to be the same in both examples, because otherwise the pH would be different.

The exception being a badly made batch, where parts of the soap are maybe at 10.5 and other parts at 14. Even if it averages at 11.3, it's dangerous.


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## Susie (Oct 18, 2015)

Is regular household vinegar dangerous with at pH of 2.3?

Is household ammonia dangerous with a pH of 12?

I have had both of these substances on my bare skin with no ill effects.  I have also used liquid soap with a pH of 12.7 with no ill effects. 

I have to differ with your opinion of whether a soap that has a pH of 11.3 is dangerous.  It may not be the most pleasant soap you have used, but, if properly made and free of "free lye", it should not be harmful.  Because pH is not a safe/not safe determination of a soap.


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

If you dissolve 80 mg of NaOH in one liter of water, you also end up with pH 11.3. Nothing but free lye.

In your opinion, what would it do to your skin if you used the same amounts that you use with soap?

I agree that free lye is harmful when it's concentrated in some spots (like crystals or pockets of lye water). However, in a properly made soap with evenly distributed lye, it should only be as dangerous as the pH it causes.

I'm not saying that pH is the only measure for soap safety. I mean, if you have razorblades in your soap it won't be safe even at pH7. There are lots of factors that contribute to the harshness of your soap.

But if you're concerned about residual lye, pH should be a good measure for safety as long as the lye is evenly distributed within your bar of soap.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

"...pH should be a good measure for safety as long as the lye is evenly distributed within your bar of soap..."

No, pH is _not_ a good measure of safety under the circumstances in which handcrafted soapers make soap. Or even under the circumstances in which large commercial soap makers make soap. If pH  was the panacea of safety people want it to be, then commercial soap makers would use pH as a test, and they don't! 

I will concede that if a soap maker could absolutely know the raw ingredients going into the soap were highly consistent, then pH _theoretically_ could be used once a soap maker established the correct pH for a fully saponified soap. That is not a realistic scenario. We don't and never will have absolute control over our raw ingredients -- the composition of fats varies depending on plant varieties, animal breeds, growing season variables, etc. and the purity of lye changes over time.

I've trotted out the table below some time ago, but it looks like it's time to trot it out again. The pH values of the commercial soaps range from 9.8 to 12.4 -- and I want to stress these are real lye-based soaps, not syndets (synthetic detergents). Each and every one of them would show a pink blush if tested with phenolpthalein, although the 12.4 soaps might blush pink and then go clear. Handcrafted soaps are no different, because they're made from the same lye and the same types of fats.

But enough. I've spent a lot of time trying to explain today -- especially Post 88 and this one. If my efforts are not meaningful to you, I am clearly not competent to fulfill this teachable moment.


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## dibbles (Oct 18, 2015)

DeeAnna, thanks for looking out for us who still consider ourselves newbies. I, for one, appreciate your efforts and I know I am not alone. 

Ditto for all the others who so selflessly and generously share your knowledge which you have learned through experimenting and experience. I wish I could name you all, but there are so many and I would hate to forget someone who regularly contributes and patiently answers questions, all simply for the love of soaping. You know who you are, and you are valued. All of you.


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## Misschief (Oct 18, 2015)

Amen!


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

DeeAnna, I know that it's tough to explain things to a newbie and I really appreciate your effort. English is my second language, so sometimes I have a little trouble explaining myself. Just believe me that I'm not in this for the sake of discussion, but because I genuinely don't understand your point. If you want to leave it at that, it's fine. I'll keep my opinion and you keep yours and since I'm only using my soap for myself, you can relax - I will only burn off my own skin. 

But in case you want to continue at some point...

The essence of what I'm trying to say is: "Free lye" is only dangerous if there is so much of it that it raises the soap's pH to a dangerous level. 

I'm not trying to say that a "safe" pH guarantees a safe soap. I'm not saying that the pH is a direct measure of the harshness of a soap (as your table clearly shows - thanks for that great example).

All I'm saying is if your soap is at pH 11 and it makes your skin fall off, it's not the lye. At pH 11, there is no way to have a dangerous amount of free lye left in your soap because that would result in a higher pH.


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## IrishLass (Oct 18, 2015)

I just wanted to point out (in case no one noticed) that in the dermatological study results DeeAnna posted above, the soap with the highest pH - Johnson's Baby Oat soap with a pH of 12.4- rated the lowest on the irritability index scale.

That just goes to show how tenuous it is to rely on pH as an indicator of soap safety. Dr. Kevin Dunn said pretty much the same thing in his book, 'Scientific Soapmaking' on page 371. 

By the way- Dr. Dunn also devotes a few pages of his book in Chapter 4 to the Tongue Test (zap test). He considers it a valid test and gives instructions on how to do it properly. 


IrishLass


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## Misschief (Oct 18, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> I just wanted to point out (in case no one noticed) that in the dermatological study results DeeAnna posted above, the soap with the highest pH - Johnson's Baby Oat soap with a pH of 12.4- rated the lowest on the irritability index scale.
> 
> That just goes to show how tenuous it is to rely on pH as an indicator of soap safety. Dr. Kevin Dunn said pretty much the same thing in his book, 'Scientific Soapmaking' on page 371.
> 
> ...



I did notice that and it made me do a double take!


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## Susie (Oct 18, 2015)

notapantsday-How much actual soap making experience do you have?  I am not trying to be ugly here, but this discussion is beginning to remind me of the "purely theoretical" conversations of students.  I need to know that you have actual experience making soap so that I know how to proceed from here.


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## JayJay (Oct 18, 2015)

dibbles said:


> DeeAnna, thanks for looking out for us who still consider ourselves newbies. I, for one, appreciate your efforts and I know I am not alone.
> 
> Ditto for all the others who so selflessly and generously share your knowledge which you have learned through experimenting and experience. I wish I could name you all, but there are so many and I would hate to forget someone who regularly contributes and patiently answers questions, all simply for the love of soaping. You know who you are, and you are valued. All of you.



I second this as well! 

And DeeAnna, I am not sure if this helps you to feel better but please know that although this particular person may not appear to get what you are saying, the rest of us are reading and digesting the information.  Tonight, I realized that I was able to follow most of what was said! That is HUGE for me.  I have gained so much from you and also learned from several other people on this forum (most have appeared on this thread).  I feel so lucky to be here.  

So, you may feel frustrated because the other party didn't seem to come around, but if it had not been for this conversation, those of us who are following wouldn't have had the benefit of reading all of your responses and information.  

Thanks you all for being willing to explain until you are blue in the face!


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

Didn't see the latest response before posting, editing my post right now.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

I reconsidered my last post ... and I deleted it. It was respectful and factual, but I think it will simply keep the pot boiling and I would prefer to let this thread simmer down. Thanks to all who have made positive comments and shared encouraging words. I appreciate it!!!


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## doriettefarm (Oct 18, 2015)

DeeAnna - you have infinitely more patience than I do . . . I was tempted to say something not-so-nice back on page 6 of the thread!  Thanks as always for the chemistry lesson and reality check


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## notapantsday (Oct 18, 2015)

I want to thank you as well. Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I have learned a lot from your posts and I will continue to do so.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2015)

To everyone, including NAPD -- thanks again for your kindness! I'm sure there will be more chances for healthy debate, and I look forward to them ... after a breather. For now, I think I'm going to head over to the "What soapy thing have you done today?" thread and see what kinds of soapy fun happened this weekend!


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## Dharlee (Oct 19, 2015)

I know this thread got crazy hijacked and probably needs to go to thread heaven (or somewhere) but I just want to say to DeeAnna that I have learned volumes from you. I have from very many here, but most especially from you. And I am very appreciative of it. I think many times people don't remember to be nice and say thank you. I just wanted to.


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## Dana89 (Oct 19, 2015)

> Screw You



Tsk Tsk- Oprah would not approve of that.

But hey what do we know, we are just a bunch of morons who will never be capable of doing anything more than Farmers markets because we don't want to use a test that has no validity on whether or not our soap is lye heavy.:roll:


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## hlee (Oct 19, 2015)

I also want to thank you DeeAnna for explaining the chemistry side of soap making and for having the patience to explain it over and over in different ways until even I can understand it. It is appreciated so very much!
Thanks to everyone else also for all the information shared here. 
It is  such a great group of soap makers we have here and feels like a good time to thank you for all the help you have given me and let you know how much it is appreciated . Soap on!


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## TwystedPryncess (Oct 19, 2015)

Dern I missed the whole thing!  Now why do people like that got to act like they are Queen Elizabeth just because they've made some soap? Ugh. My hillbilly is coming out. Thank you Deanna for all of your posts and info, and your grace. Now I have masses to catch up on, so much for the new vampire book.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 19, 2015)

Vampire book? <perked ears> Do tell, Pryncess!


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## hmlove1218 (Oct 19, 2015)

Not positive, but I'm guessing the new Twilight book that just came out. If so, Pryncess, you'll have to let me know if it's any good!


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## LittleCrazyWolf (Oct 19, 2015)

I haven't been on very much lately but just finished catching up on this thread. Whoa. Since it looks like the actual soapy talk is finished I will just weigh in on the new vampire book...

I saw it at the store yesterday and was really tempted to buy it but money is tight right now (pocket money is non-existent). I am all about seeing a story from different viewpoints...I play my RPG video games multiple times just to experience all the different possible storylines, endings, and slight changes in the dialogue. This book is like a siren's call to me!

All that to say that if someone does read the book, please take pity and let me know if it is worth buying. If so, I'm pretty sure my hubby will buy it for my birthday. He's so awesome about catering to my compulsions and geekiness.


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## BrewerGeorge (Oct 19, 2015)

It was REALLY panned on goodreads.


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2015)

Which book?


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## SoapyGoats (Oct 28, 2015)

Wow, what a heavy read! Thanks DeeAnna for all your insight  

And yeah, which book? 
LittleCrazyWolf...try a kindle...you can get all kinds of free (it's great!) books for kindles on Amazon! Although the kindle itself isn't cheap...


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## Margo (Nov 17, 2015)

*Why*

I don't understand what's to love about your recipes if the soap doesn't come out right.

You must use a calculator to calculate the lye usage in your soap recipe
If you weigh the ingredients precisely then there is no problem. 

The temperature of the oils and lye solution must be the same (about 110 degrees).  Usage of a stick blender and bringing the soap to trace is very important.  Pouring it too soon will result in a separation of ingredients.  

I have made goat milk soap over and over again and each time it comes out the same.  BTW my soap is hot-processed which leaves very little room for error.

Happy soaper
Margo


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## shunt2011 (Nov 17, 2015)

Margo said:


> I don't understand what's to love about your recipes if the soap doesn't come out right.
> 
> You must use a calculator to calculate the lye usage in your soap recipe
> If you weigh the ingredients precisely then there is no problem.
> ...


 
I need disagree with you on the oils/lye needing to be the same temperature.  That's just not true.

Many use room temp oils and add hot lye and then many (me) soap at room temp. 

I haven't measured temperature since I first started.  

Precise measuring is most important. As well as using a calculator for your lye.


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## Susie (Nov 17, 2015)

^What Shari said!

I use the heat transfer method (solid lard and CO, pour hot lye water in, SB til melted, add liquid oils), and never worry about temperature.  Works well every time.  I am not saying everyone has to use my method, whatever method WORKS for them, works fine.  However, if that method does not yield results that the person desires, then someone might be more wise to try a different method.  The only hard and fast rules are these:  use a good lye calculator, and a good, reliable digital scale.


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## nikkisessence (Nov 17, 2015)

*Spots in Soap*

Personal Experience

I have seen spots due to:
1. Titanium dioxide speckling - not mixing in well enough
2.  Probable Stearic acid spots - not melting stearic acid or hard oils (I've used palm and tallow) completely into oil phase.
3. Lye spots - looks crystalline and soap bars are crumbly at cut. This can be caused by #2 above for me as well. 

I tested spots by removing and placing onto two areas on paper towel. One area leave alone, the other area drop with indicator. The area around will brown if lye is present in excess. I've tested soaps with all three methods available to me - zap, pH paper, and phenolphthalein indicator.


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## lsg (Nov 17, 2015)

I too disagree that oils and lye mixture both need to be 110*F.  I have been soaping for years and usually don't check the temps of my oil unless I am doing an elaborate swirl.  I wait until my lye water is clear and mix my melted solid fats with liquid oils, then add the lye water to the oils and stick blend to trace.  When making milk soaps, I freeze the milk and break it up in pieces, then add the lye a little at a time, stirring well with each addition.  I then strain the lye/milk to remove any leftover solid particles before adding to the oils.  Another method is to substitute cream or evaporated milk for part of the water.  Dissolve lye in water and add cream/evaporated milk to oils or at thin trace.


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## nikkisessence (Nov 17, 2015)

With making milk soaps by adding lye to cold/frozen milk I have come to always filter this solution through a fine mesh sieve before adding lye phase to oil phase. Anymore, I make a 50/50w solution lye/distilled water and make up remaining liquid by weight with cold milk/beer/juice (whatever) and adding after emulsion has occurred. This seems to standardize my process a bit.

More thoughts:
Excess lye is calculated before recipe development by determining lye concentration needed according to each individual oil's saponification value then determining an excess of oil by discounting the lye. I've almost always used 5% and soapcalc values for saponification.

I agree with post aboveby lsg! Sorry for duplication in ideas!!


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## IrishLass (Nov 17, 2015)

Regarding soaping at 110F: Speaking only for myself, this is something I happen do as a matter of course whenever I'm making my formulas that contain lots of butters and/or high-stearic fats. Through trial and error with my particular manner or style of soaping (which is dependent on a handful of different variables, such as when I like to pour in my additives which may be of different/varying temps), I found 110F to be my 'sweet-spot' temp that keeps pseudo-trace and the resulting stearic spots away from such batches. 

But my other formulas that contain miniscule amounts of butters and/or high stearic fats do perfectly fine being soaped at much lower temps.

I guess the moral of my story is that there's no single 'set-in-stone' soaping temp that one-and-all 'must' use to make good soap. It will vary from soaper to soaper, depending on their own unique formulas and individual manner of soaping.


IrishLass


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## dibbles (Nov 17, 2015)

What point would it be considered a high amount of stearic acid? Looking at soap calc, stearic acid for lard is 13, cocoa butter is 33, coconut is 3, and palm is 5. Am I looking at the wrong thing in trying to figure this out? Maybe I should be looking at more than just stearic acid numbers? 

I haven't done much with butters yet, but that is something I want to start playing around with more. I have been soaping cooler to keep my batter fluid while I am learning swirl and pour techniques. But then I wonder about the melt point of the solid fats (lard and palm in particular).


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## IrishLass (Nov 17, 2015)

Yep, it's more than just looking at the stearic % when it comes to soaping with harder fats/butters. Their particular melting points must also be taken into consideration.... as well as the temps of any additives you'll be adding to the mix that might drag the overall temp of the batter down too much below those melting points before the heat from the lye reaction can kick into full gear and keep things nicely fluid. It can all be quite the balancing act for sure. lol 

For me, 110F has proven itself to be my catch-all temp for my harder formulas that's able to take all my particular variables into consideration in order to keep things in a nice fluid state until the lye is able to kick in and take over. 

For what it's worth, my tallow/lard formula, which also contains mango butter and hydrogenated PKO, has a total of 25% stearic/palmitic content. If the temp of my batter falls much lower than 110F with this formula, it starts exhibiting pseudo-trace. 


IrishLass


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## dibbles (Nov 17, 2015)

Thanks IL. Always something to learn with soaping. This is what I'm going to be trying to get a handle on next. Fortunately I haven't had any false trace issues (at least I don't think I have). *knocking wood*


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## TeresaT (Nov 17, 2015)

Wow!  What an education.  I'd like to echo the thanks others have posted with regard to your geeky science stuff.  I had to laugh when Commoncenz posted "This should be good," because I thought, "let the battle commence!"  I do have one question regarding "phenol" though...isn't that the stuff that killed Michael Jackson?


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## JayJay (Nov 17, 2015)

TeresaT said:


> Wow!  What an education.  I'd like to echo the thanks others have posted with regard to your geeky science stuff.  I had to laugh when Commoncenz posted "This should be good," because I thought, "let the battle commence!"  I do have one question regarding "phenol" though...isn't that the stuff that killed Michael Jackson?



You are thinking of propofol.


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## Susie (Nov 17, 2015)

Propofol (Diprivan) is a short acting anesthetic agent used frequently and safely in hospitals every day.  It is not the same as phenol.


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## notapantsday (Nov 18, 2015)

Propofol is a really great anesthetic. I had it for myself once and I totally understand why Michael Jackson took it. But it also has great properties and if you use it in a hospital setting, it is very safe.

Phenol has been used to kill thousands of people in Auschwitz, so I'd say it's actually worse.

Phenolphthalein is not the same as phenol either, but it's also toxic.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 18, 2015)

All 3 of them are utterly useless at detecting if a soap is lye-heavy or not, so they have that in common............................


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## nikkisessence (Nov 18, 2015)

*Stearic acid*

There are many saturated fatty acids. The main one I use separately to add to soap for hardening is stearic acid. There's also palmitic, myristic, and caprylic (I believe off the top of my head). In harder oils and butters I have seen spots in my soap due to, I think, areas of saturated fatty acids that haven't incorporated. I don't find that I need the mixture to be any consistent temperature. But I have found that it works best for me to incorporate these butters into my oil phase and melt well before adding lye phase or to add lye phase to unmelted butters/hard oils-fats and mix to smooth then add remaining oils. This is my experience.


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## Margo (Nov 18, 2015)

*Temperature is Important*

Well, I am a chemist and rely on the scientific, proven methods for all skin care and soapmaking formulations


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 18, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Yep, it's more than just looking at the stearic % when it comes to soaping with harder fats/butters. Their particular melting points must also be taken into consideration.... as well as the temps of any additives you'll be adding to the mix that might drag the overall temp of the batter down too much below those melting points before the heat from the lye reaction can kick into full gear and keep things nicely fluid. It can all be quite the balancing act for sure. lol
> 
> For me, 110F has proven itself to be my catch-all temp for my harder formulas that's able to take all my particular variables into consideration in order to keep things in a nice fluid state until the lye is able to kick in and take over.
> 
> ...



I think you answered a question I didn't ask yet LOL. 

When making attempt number two yesterday, I used the same recipe and the same heat transfer method like I did with batch number one, but my hard oils were not melting as easily as they had on the first batch. By the time time they were melted, the batter was looking like it was beginning to trace, which I assumed was due to all the stirring I had to do to get the blasted hard oils melted. 

This gave me a bit of a panic, lemme tell ya, but I added my liquid oils and stirred them in, hoping it wouldn't set up so quick that I'd have no time to pour it. I never needed to SB it, it was already at light to medium trace just stirring. I split it into batchlets and added powdered colorants, but it was suddenly thinner than before I added the powders, which confused me, but I attributed it to the FO and kept going. Only to have them all thicken up very quickly when I was trying to pour! Ugh! I did the best I could and skewer swirled and went about cleaning up. 

It seemed to take forever to get even remotely warm, which is not normal for me so far, so I covered it with a towel and left it. When I cut it at 36 hours after pour (which is a good 12 hours longer than my usual cut time) it was solid but still very soft and sticky. I've set the bars on the higher shelf to put them closer to the air vent and hopefully harden them up a little quicker.

I had assumed the FO reversed trace, but now I'm wondering if it was too chilly in the room (temps have been dropping here recently) and the hard oils were solidifying again, despite the hot lye solution, giving me pseudo trace.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 18, 2015)

Margo said:


> Well, I am a chemist and rely on the scientific, proven methods for all skin care and soapmaking formulations




As all but one of my batches has been made sans thermometer, I will take that as a proven method. 

But the scientific interests me - can you link to studies where they found that the temperature of 110 (if I remember correctly, that was your temp) was the perfect temp for various recipes? Would be an interesting read


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## annalee2003 (Nov 18, 2015)

Absolutely love how much I learn from this forum. You guys are so knowledgeable. 
I swear I learn something new each week.


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## JayJay (Nov 18, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> All 3 of them are utterly useless at detecting if a soap is lye-heavy or not, so they have that in common............................



So I have been wasting my time dripping propofol onto my soap bars? No wonder it never turned pink!


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## notapantsday (Nov 18, 2015)

Does make for a very relaxing shower though.


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## songwind (Nov 18, 2015)

notapantsday said:


> Does make for a very relaxing shower though.



Why does mommy/daddy always take such a long nap after making soap?


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## JayJay (Nov 19, 2015)

notapantsday said:


> Does make for a very relaxing shower though.



Is THIS this real reason why my friends like my soap so much?  Darn it.  I thought I was the suds.


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## Susie (Nov 19, 2015)

gigisiguenza said:


> .
> I had assumed the FO reversed trace, but now I'm wondering if it was too chilly in the room (temps have been dropping here recently) and the hard oils were solidifying again, despite the hot lye solution, giving me pseudo trace.



Yep, you had false trace due to the hard oils firming back up.  When the house is cooler, even I melt my hard oils.


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 19, 2015)

Susie said:


> Yep, you had false trace due to the hard oils firming back up.  When the house is cooler, even I melt my hard oils.



Ugh that's what I thought. Do I need to worry about any issues with the bars? Is there anything I should be looking for?


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## Susie (Nov 20, 2015)

If they have not separated into oils and lye water by now, they shouldn't.  Just be sure to zap test.


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## IrishLass (Nov 20, 2015)

To add to what Susie said- you may end up with 'stearic spots', but they are just merely an aesthetic issue.


IrishLass


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 20, 2015)

Ok I'll take some close up pics later so you can see and let me know if there's any issues. They have not separated, so that's good. I see no spots, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for, so who knows LOL. TY ladies


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## DianaMoon (Feb 25, 2018)

So, how do we know that our soap is safe to use after waiting that 4-6 week cure period?

Shave off a piece and wash one's hands?

All I care about is safety. I don't care what the soap looks or smells like.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 25, 2018)

DianaMoon said:


> So, how do we know that our soap is safe to use after waiting that 4-6 week cure period?
> 
> Shave off a piece and wash one's hands?
> 
> All I care about is safety. I don't care what the soap looks or smells like.



As long as there’s no zap it’s safe to use. Try it once a week or so so that you can see the changes. After 4 weeks you should be good to go.  They get better with age


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## IrishLass (Feb 25, 2018)

Ditto what Shari said^^^.  The zap/tongue test is the measure of safety. It's the quickest, easiest way to tell if there is any unreacted lye in your soap- it just takes a few seconds to test. And you don't have to test every bar in the batch- just one bar out of the batch is sufficient.

To expound a little more on what Shari said, don't confuse 'safe-to-use' with 'optimum-time-to-use'. For example, my soaps normally test out zap-free the same day I unmold and are safe to use right away, but they haven't matured enough yet to be able to perform at their level best in terms of lather, mildness and longevity. They don't reach that level of maturity until at least 4 weeks have passed, sometimes a few weeks longer (four-weeks is when I've found my formulas to have reached their acceptable, 'earliest best' for my likes, but they get even better as more time goes by).

To find your own 'optimim-time-to-use', set aside a zap-free bar to use for testing purposes and wash your hands with it once a week, remembering to jot down notes on the differences you see each time.


IrishLass


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