# Does anyone find high % tallow soaps drying?



## Primrose (Jul 21, 2017)

So as you guys know I'm a newbie and about 3 months in, have tried a few different recipes thus far. 

I tried a bar last night which was 50% tallow, 25% olive oil, 20% coconut oil and 5% castor oil, cured 5 weeks, goats milk instead of water, no water discount, no additives, fragrances or colour. 

I was pretty impressed with this soap, it came to trace easily, not too fast and not too slow. Its nice and white without any TD. Its very hard and was easy to unmould, and seems to hold up in water really well without melting, after only a reasonably short cure. I was impressed - until I used it. It was excellent in terms of bubbles, BUT it felt very stripping on my skin and I finally understood what people mean when they feel squeaky clean and draggy. I can definitely imagine this drying out my skin if I used it repeatedly. 

Funnily enough the same recipe but with lard instead of tallow feels much softer on my skin, so obviously my naïve assumption that tallow and lard are similar was totally wrong!

Has anyone experienced the same thing? And where would you start to tinker with this recipe, reduce the tallow a bit and increase the olive oil? Reduce the coconut oil a bit? I'm fine with 20% coconut oil in the other recipes I've tried (one with 50% lard and the rest the same as above, and another with 75% olive oil, 20% coconut oil and 5% castor oil). Or would you look at adding specialty butters, or even increasing superfat? 

I'll do some tinkering in the lye calculator and some experimental batches, but I was just curious to hear your thoughts.

It was also interesting to note that this so far felt the closest to me compared with commercial soap. It didn't feel like homemade soap at all


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## Britannic (Jul 21, 2017)

You mention a short cure, how long was that? I find my soaps are initially harsher and more drying if they're under 4 weeks cure and usually get milder after that. How much superfat did you factor for the recipe?


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## Obsidian (Jul 21, 2017)

Tallow is more cleansing then lard so when I used it, I decreased the coconut amount by 5-10%  

A longer cure will help too. I have a high tallow soap that was too stripping but after a year, it's a very nice soap.

I personally prefer lard and only use tallow now in shaving soap.


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## BattleGnome (Jul 21, 2017)

Was this the first use of the bar or have you been using it a few days? What was the super fat? (I'm conveniently missing it if you mentioned it)

I find it sometimes takes a day or two for a soap to "bloom" in use, so far I think my longest has been 3 showers. Sometimes there is just magic to the point a soap becomes it's perfect self while in use. I would suggest to continue to use the soap for learning purposes and let the rest cure more to continue the learning. My first soap was kinda bad but on a whim I used it over a year later and it was wonderful. 

I've never used tallow and can't actually give you any opinions on it, just figured I'd give you some reminders on the ever changing nature of soap.


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## Arimara (Jul 21, 2017)

I have been saying that tallow was deceptively cleansing. I still like it but it is definitely one of those fats where you need to really think about how much cleansing oil you want to use in a recipe.


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## Primrose (Jul 21, 2017)

Woops nope I didn't mention the superfat, but it is 5%

When I mentioned a short cure, I guess that was relative to my Bastille type which is still producing slime after a 12 week cure. This tallow batch has had a 5 week cure. 

I'm reluctant to use it daily for now but I will put it aside for another four weeks and see how it feels with a bit longer cure


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## Soapmaker145 (Jul 21, 2017)

I use tallow in the 30 to 40% range.  Before changing the oils, I would start is by changing the superfat.  I would increase it by 1 to 3% and compare.  Oils are a natural product that can vary from lot to lot.  The 5% superfat is never really 5% because the lye and the oils have a built in error.  A little testing is in order.

I like tallow soaps with Shea and Mango butters after a loooong cure.  I also like them with canola, hazelnut and avocado  oils.  You have to see what you like.  I always let my soaps cure for a long time.  When it comes to soaps, one size doesn't fit most.


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## lenarenee (Jul 21, 2017)

I also would lower the co amount by about 5%. Tallow has lauric and myrisitc acids, which are the same "cleansing" acids that coconut has.

I personally never go beyond 5% sf, unless doing salt bars.  I've used high cleansing bars with high superfat and don't like them because my skin is stripped of its natural oils, then coated with the soap's superfat.....and to me that just feels weird. 

Did you get a chance to use a soap with 20% co, and how did you like that?
I ask because if you know that you skin is happy with that, then maybe it just doesn't  like tallow.

Just a point of interest; my dry skin/winter soap is made with high tallow, avocado, shea butter and just a touch of co


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## Primrose (Jul 21, 2017)

Yep I've used two different batches with 20% co, one that was mostly lard based and one that was mostly olive oil based. Both of these go well on my skin, and so does a 100% CO 20% SF soap, so perhaps you are right that my skin doesn't like the tallow. I will try a few alternatives though before dismissing it completely


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 21, 2017)

Many people like a mix of lard and tallow.  Could be worth a try


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## Saponificarian (Jul 21, 2017)

Based on my experience tallow is deceptively cleansing like Arimara said. 

I have been running a little experiment on cleansing oils and I am finding out I need less than I thought I needed. Shea cuts lather and you should increase your Co/PKO to get substantive lather. Guess what I have a 10% Coconut, 30% Tallow and 60% Shea that lathers well. With bubbles and all. At only 10% Coconut. The other lathering fat? Tallow. I did a Tallow, Sunflower and Illipe Butter that lathers beautifully without Coconut/PKO. So with your recipe, I would maybe reduce Coconut oil to 10% or remove it and substitute with a lather booster like Sunflower. It might improve with a long cure but I haven't use a year old bar yet so no experience with that.


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## Susie (Jul 21, 2017)

I like the following recipe using tallow and lard the most:

Castor Oil 5%
Olive Oil 15%
CO 10%
Lard 40%
Tallow 30%

Superfat 5-8%

Tallow is more cleansing than lard, but gives lovely bubbles.  I also typically increase my superfat to 8% for me, 5% for my hubby who likes less superfat.


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## Arimara (Jul 21, 2017)

Soapmaker145 said:


> I use tallow in the 30 to 40% range.  Before changing the oils, I would start is by changing the superfat.  I would increase it by 1 to 3% and compare.  Oils are a natural product that can vary from lot to lot.  The 5% superfat is never really 5% because the lye and the oils have a built in error.  A little testing is in order.
> 
> I like tallow soaps with Shea and Mango butters after a loooong cure.  I also like them with canola, hazelnut and avocado  oils.  You have to see what you like.  I always let my soaps cure for a long time.  When it comes to soaps, one size doesn't fit most.



With any soap that uses lard or tallow, I personally suggest a long cure. Sure, that 3 month old lard bar might feel amazing now but I can guarantee you that it will be at least 10x better in another 6+months. I used my only remaining lard bar and I was amazed at how good my skin felt and in the winter no less.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Many people like a mix of lard and tallow.  Could be worth a try





Susie said:


> I like the following recipe using tallow and lard the most:
> 
> Castor Oil 5%
> Olive Oil 15%
> ...



I'd note that when it comes to using a blend of tallow and lard, Use a little more lard than tallow if you want some bubbles. I'd have to look through notes but I believe that things can get a little weird when you play with the lard:tallow ratios in a recipe.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 21, 2017)

Tallow adds hardness -- and even brittleness as the % goes up. It also increases the bubbly lather and the cleansing. I have used tallow at 30% and higher, but I prefer recipes with 10% to 20% tallow with the main solid fat being lard. I reduce the coconut oil a bit to keep the "cleansing" number (myristic + lauric acids) to the range I prefer, and include a high oleic oil (olive, HO sunflower, avocado, etc) in a modest % for good solubility and nice lather.

I don't consider tallow to be a necessity for a mild, long lasting, hard bar, but I occasionally get beef fat from friends. When I do, I render it and use it to make soap.


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## Dahila (Jul 21, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Many people like a mix of lard and tallow.  Could be worth a try



I do ie 25 lard, 15 tallow,35/25,   I find it very satisfying with hardness and they are very mild


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## Primrose (Oct 23, 2017)

Hey guys, I wanted to update this post and say that after 13 weeks it is no longer stripping, and really quite an enjoyable bar of soap! 

And to the person who said I bet that lard bar feels even better with more time ... yes indeed, I got some more out from that same batch the other day, so it is about 6 months old now, and it blew my socks off. Similarly a bastille bar that was rubbish at 8 weeks, ok at 12 weeks finally feels like a nice bar of soap at 6 months. 

I'm definitely enjoying learning about how important aging is. 

Life has been in the way of soap making for the last few months but I'm back at it again and have a few variations on the tallow recipe planned, along the lines of what you've mentioned, increasing the superfat in one, decreasing the coconut oil in another, and trying a combination of lard and tallow. I'll let you know how it goes!


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## cmzaha (Oct 23, 2017)

My favorite recipe uses tallow/lard 45/25% with Coconut oil/PKO 8/7%


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