# What do you use to scent your soaps?  FO or EO?



## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

Hi everyone!  Being so new to this, I am lost re this issue.  I assumed that all scented soaps were made with EOs, but I have discovered FOs and am wondering what the majority of the soapers use?  

I was wanting to scent with lavender and found the EO to be very expensive!  What do the most of you use in soaps for the lavender scent?  FO or EO?

Thanks for your help in advance!


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## dixiedragon (Dec 8, 2015)

I use both. Prices on many EOs have really gone up. IIRC, patchouli used to be pretty reasonable, but now it's risen to the point where (IMO), it's too dear to use in soap. Other EOs, like mint (and yes, lavender) are a lot more reasonable. For example, lavender FO at BB is $13.42 for 4 oz, and lavender EO at Camden Gray is $11.25 for 4 ounces. Lavender FOs is tend to be more floral and have less of the medicinal/menthol scent you get from the EO. I happen to like the menthol notes, but not everyone does. Lavender EO is very well behaved in soap. Lavender FO does tend to stick a little better, but lavender EO sticks very well.

If you want to soap with EOs, make a wish list and check out somebody who specializes in EOs. Liberty Natural and Camden Grey are good ones. 

BTW, if you start with jasmine, rose and sandalwood EO, you'll cry. But mints (peppermint and spearmint), lavender, lemongrass, eucalyptus, rosemary (off the top of my head) are pretty reasonable.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 8, 2015)

Almost always FO in soap except for the less expensive EOs like mint that do well in soap. The cost is just too high to use most EOs, and I also like the huge range of FO scents I can use and enjoy. 

I use EOs almost all the time for everything else -- lotions, balms, salves, etc. -- because these leave-on products often have an underlying therapeutic purpose as well as a nice scent.


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## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

Thanks so much!! This is very helpful! I was wondering how soap makers could make any kind of profit using EO, or how much they would have to charge to be able to use EOs!

Is the lavender FO from BB the same as the one fm CG?

Correction....CG does not carry the FO, so no comparison.

I just went to CG and did not see the lavender fragrance oil. I called and got a VM so assuming that they are closed now.

I went back again on the site and the lavender FO was not listed on their FO page, so maybe they quit carrying it. BB seems to be the only one that I have found so far.

My mistake! I misread the above post and thought that CG had the FO. It was the EO that they carry for less than BB.

Now, what is the difference between lavender EO and 40/42? Soooooo much to learn!! 

Who else carries lavender FO besides BB?


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## snappyllama (Dec 8, 2015)

narnia said:


> Now, what is the difference between lavender EO and 40/42?  Soooooo much to learn!!



There are numerous varieties of lavender.

From BB about their 40/42:

Made from a mixture of lavender essential oils to create a dependable scent year after year, this Lavender does not experience the same crop variations due to blending different Lavender constituents in a lab after harvesting and distilling. Similar to a red table wine, Lavender 40/42 blends different kinds of Lavender for an economical and consistent blend. 

It's kind of a middle of the road lavender - not too herbal, not too sweet.


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## snappyllama (Dec 8, 2015)

New Directions carries a bunch of different lavender EOs if you want to check out some of the varieties available...

https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/essential-oils/


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## Dahila (Dec 8, 2015)

Still Lavender EO is too expensive for soaps.  I do not believe the EO's do survive the lye)


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## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

snappyllama said:


> New Directions carries a bunch of different lavender EOs if you want to check out some of the varieties available...
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/essential-oils/





Thanks!  Looks like a great site!  Good pricing!  I will have to wait until I have a $100 min order.  I just bought a lot from BA.


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## SplendorSoaps (Dec 8, 2015)

I also use both, either separately or combined. I make liberal use of some of the less expensive EOs (lavender, lemongrass, peppermint, litsea cubeba, various citrus EOs), but I also really love some of the FOs that are out there. I tend to stick to just a few EOs so that I can buy 16 oz. at a time for a significant cost savings. Also, combining the inexpensive EOs makes for a reasonably priced, lovely scented bar. My top seller right now is a Lavender Lemongrass that I literally can't keep in stock. Lavender blends well with just about everything!

I've tried lavender FOs, but I've been pretty disappointed with what I've used so far. Of course, there are a gazillion lavender FOs out there, so I'm sure that there are some good ones out there that someone on this board could point you toward.


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## Seawolfe (Dec 8, 2015)

I use almost all EOs, mostly the inexpensive ones, which are quite a few. Mints, litsea, citrus, lavender, rosemary, cedar, fir, patchouli, & star anise make up the core of my collection. 

About 70% of the FO's ive tried smell really perfumy and icky to me, so I have a couple I like, and the rest is EO's


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## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

SplendorSoaps said:


> I also use both, either separately or combined. I make liberal use of some of the less expensive EOs (lavender, lemongrass, peppermint, litsea cubeba, various citrus EOs), but I also really love some of the FOs that are out there. I tend to stick to just a few EOs so that I can buy 16 oz. at a time for a significant cost savings. Also, combining the inexpensive EOs makes for a reasonably priced, lovely scented bar. My top seller right now is a Lavender Lemongrass that I literally can't keep in stock. Lavender blends well with just about everything!
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried lavender FOs, but I've been pretty disappointed with what I've used so far. Of course, there are a gazillion lavender FOs out there, so I'm sure that there are some good ones out there that someone on this board could point you toward.





Thank you!  I have lemongrass, so I could certainly try the combo!  How much of each do you mix and how much do you add total to the soap?  BTW...what are you calling this scent mix?


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## SplendorSoaps (Dec 8, 2015)

narnia said:


> Thank you!  I have lemongrass, so I could certainly try the combo!  How much of each do you mix and how much do you add total to the soap?  BTW...what are you calling this scent mix?



I like to use 2 parts lavender to 1 part lemongrass. Lemongrass is a lovely scent, but a little bit goes a long way! I just call it Lavender Lemongrass, and customers can't get enough of it!


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## houseofwool (Dec 8, 2015)

I use EO exclusively as I have respiratory issues with most FOs. 

Even with the cost of pricier EOs like patchouli, I can sell my soaps for $1/oz. On the patch blends the margin is thinner, but it evens out when I see unscented or something with a inexpensive blend.

I have a 50:50 blend of spearmint and lavender that sells like crazy right now.


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## Dahila (Dec 8, 2015)

narnia said:


> I do agree...but what would you use for a customer who wants chemical free products and requests lavender scented soap?  FOs are all chemically based, aren't they?


Eo are chemicals,  too.  I get your point but do you make a soap for particular customer, do it,  just charge her


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## Misschief (Dec 8, 2015)

Dahila said:


> Still Lavender EO is too expensive for soaps.  I do not believe the EO's do survive the lye)



It certainly does. One of my more popular soaps so far has been my lavender and goat's milk soap. Even after 3 months in my spare bedroom, in the open, the lavender is still nice and strongly scented.


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## Dahila (Dec 8, 2015)

Misschief said:


> It certainly does. One of my more popular soaps so far has been my lavender and goat's milk soap. Even after 3 months in my spare bedroom, in the open, the lavender is still nice and strongly scented.


The scent maybe but would other benefit of EO survive?
 I doubt it


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## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

Misschief said:


> It certainly does. One of my more popular soaps so far has been my lavender and goat's milk soap. Even after 3 months in my spare bedroom, in the open, the lavender is still nice and strongly scented.





Are they CP?


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## kchaystack (Dec 8, 2015)

If you don't know how to calculate your cost, and then figure out how much to sell for, I am not sure you should be selling.  

You really need to do some more research out there.  I don't sell, but I have read enough on this forum and other websites to know how to calculate cost, and rough guidelines for wholesale and retail pricing.


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## Steve85569 (Dec 9, 2015)

Calculate the cost of oils in a batch.
Add in the cost of the lye  in a batch.
Now add in the FO or EO cost in the batch.
Divide by the number of bars you just made.
Now pay yourself for your time and add 15% for overhead ( replacing equipment, time replacing oils, lye, FO and EO etc.

This will give you a rough idea of what you need to charge per bar of soap in order to keep doing this.
Stick around narnia. I know the learning curve is steep here but that's because there's so many teachers and knowledge here.

I know I probably left out something but I am a hobby soaper so I'm not attempting to recoup my costs. I just have a little background in cost analysis. In the end each one of us needs to ask ourselves if what we are doing is worth it. For me the answer is a definite yes! I am learning slowly but surely to not make the same mistakes over and over. Some of my soaps are actually getting pretty good to look at!

Steve


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 9, 2015)

narnia said:


> One always starts in ignorance.  Once learns as one goes along.  I am in the learning stage and that is why I am on this forum to learn.
> 
> 
> 
> If you know how to calculate, it would be nice for you to share.




Actually, the standard line on this forum is that you learn to make soaps well and then you THINK about selling.

Also, please keep all business related posts in the business section. Calculating cost of product is not a topic for this section, rather the general business section. If you don't qualify for posting there, please do not ask the question as it is against forum policy

Edit. Please also refrain from posting multiple threads with the same sort of information - there is another thread about lavender from you as well as multiple threads with the shampoo bar recipe question. If you think that something would be better off elsewhere, you can ask for it to be moved and so on


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## Misschief (Dec 9, 2015)

narnia said:


> Are they CP?



Yup, they are.


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## dixiedragon (Dec 9, 2015)

I may have misunderstood, but I don't get the impression the OP is planning on selling. I think he/she is pricing how much it's going to cost to make this homemade gift (good idea). Perhaps also observing the prices of soaps he/she sees for sale and wondering how the maker can sell them for that? If I see a soap that claims to be made with sandalwood EO and sells for $6 a bar, I know enough about EO prices to know that THAT is not the only thing in there making it smell like sandalwood.

Re: lavender types. Lavender 40/42 is the "standard" for soap making (if there is such a thing). That's what I use to soap. I recently bought some of Camden Grey's much more expensive maillote lavender (sp?) to make a solid perfume, which uses EO by the drop and not by the spoonful.

RE: what FOs are made of. They are made of lots of things. They may include some natural elements of the EO. For example, vanilla FOs contain vanillan, which comes from vanilla.
"Some fragrances will effect the color of soap. If you are using a fragrance oil that contains vanilla (vanillin), then unfortunately, your soap will turn brown. Vanillin is the organic compound that gives vanilla its flavor. Vanillin discoloration is a 100% natural process that can be slowed by adding chemicals to stabilize the fragrance. This effect is most noticeable in cold process soap, but will occur in all soaps and lotions."
https://brambleberry.zendesk.com/hc...899-Vanilla-Content-and-Discoloration-in-Soap

It also contains other things (I have no idea what) to make it behave in soap, to change the smell to what they think buyers want, etc etc.

http://www.soapqueen.com/bramble-berry-news/what-is-a-fragrance-oil-made-of-2/

This is also an interesting read.


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## narnia (Dec 9, 2015)

dixiedragon said:


> I may have misunderstood, but I don't get the impression the OP is planning on selling. I think he/she is pricing how much it's going to cost to make this homemade gift (good idea). Perhaps also observing the prices of soaps he/she sees for sale and wondering how the maker can sell them for that? If I see a soap that claims to be made with sandalwood EO and sells for $6 a bar, I know enough about EO prices to know that THAT is not the only thing in there making it smell like sandalwood.
> 
> .


 
Thank you! Yes, my intention behind my asking the questions were as you perceived.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Actually, the standard line on this forum is that you learn to make soaps well and then you THINK about selling.
> 
> Also, please keep all business related posts in the business section. Calculating cost of product is not a topic for this section, rather the general business section. If you don't qualify for posting there, please do not ask the question as it is against forum policy
> 
> Edit. Please also refrain from posting multiple threads with the same sort of information - there is another thread about lavender from you as well as multiple threads with the shampoo bar recipe question. If you think that something would be better off elsewhere, you can ask for it to be moved and so on


 
My apologies! I did not feel that I was being repetitious, as they were specifically different questions in my mind.


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## lenarenee (Dec 9, 2015)

Dahila said:


> The scent maybe but would other benefit of EO survive?
> I doubt it


 
I read an article with Robert Tisserand a couple years ago about what happens to saponified essential oils, and yes the lye does destroy many of the therapeutic qualities. But lavender eo was one that retained a fair portion of it - my cloudy memory seems to recall it was about 40% of the therapeutic benefits were retained, but I'm not sure. I'll see if I can dig that up...

Found it! http://roberttisserand.com/2011/06/essential-oils-in-soap-interview-with-kevin-dunn/

Here's the part I was thinking of: "There is an answer, but it is not simple. Essential oils are complex mixtures of dozens of chemical compounds. A given essential oil may contain some compounds that react with alkali, and others that do not. Lavender oil, for example, contains about 42% linalool (which does not react) and 22% linalyl acetate (which does). In fact, when linalyl acetate reacts with alkali, one of the products is linalool. Thus the scent of a CP soap made with lavender oil will smell less of linalyl acetate and more of linalool than the original EO."


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## fuzz-juzz (Dec 9, 2015)

Only FOs... I never had any luck with EOs. Doesn't matter which company I order from, how I use it (CP or HP), they just fade to nothing. The other day I rebatched some old soaps into HP soap, scented it with bergamot and geranium EOs and it was gone, after a day or two, no scent left whatsoever. 
I envy those who can get EOs to work for them.  
There are these soaps that are selling at the local shops, they are all scented with EOs and you can smell them as soon as you walk into shop. No clay in them or whatever it said to keep the scent in, just oils, some oxides for colour and EOs. They must be using some good quality ones or they are just using lots and lots, there is no other way.


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## IrishLass (Dec 9, 2015)

fuzz-juzz said:


> There are these soaps that are selling at the local shops, they are all scented with EOs and you can smell them as soon as you walk into shop. No clay in them or whatever it said to keep the scent in, just oils, some oxides for colour and EOs. They must be using some good quality ones or they are just using lots and lots, there is no other way.


 
.....or they might actually not be exclusively using EOs in spite of advertising that they do (it's shameful, but it happens). 

I use FOs in my soap instead of EOs. This is just my own opinion and how I view EOs, but I look at them as being precious medicines and I just don't feel right about putting them in my wash-off products. Instead, like DeeAnna and others, I like to keep a few EOs on hand to use in stay-on products.


IrishLass


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## MySoapyHeart (Dec 9, 2015)

I use both fragrance and EO`s, but most of my EO`s I use in my lipbalms (peppermint, spearmint, rosemary) and also in bathbombs, and footsoaks, as they really hold well in those. The EO`s I use in my CP is Lemongrass, Lavender, Tea Tree, Cedar, Rosemary, Patchouli, Spearmint, Peppermint, Eucalyptus (those last three in very low doses because they can be irritating to the skin) 
I find these oils holding up very well without anchoring them in any way, but they are not cheap so don`t use them all the time.


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## Arimara (Dec 9, 2015)

I've only used FOs in soaps. I rather stick to that. EOs I like for putting in my coconut oil, shea whips, and lotions.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (Dec 9, 2015)

fuzz-juzz said:


> Only FOs... I never had any luck with EOs. Doesn't matter which company I order from, how I use it (CP or HP), they just fade to nothing. The other day I rebatched some old soaps into HP soap, scented it with bergamot and geranium EOs and it was gone, after a day or two, no scent left whatsoever.
> I envy those who can get EOs to work for them.
> There are these soaps that are selling at the local shops, they are all scented with EOs and you can smell them as soon as you walk into shop. No clay in them or whatever it said to keep the scent in, just oils, some oxides for colour and EOs. They must be using some good quality ones or they are just using lots and lots, there is no other way.



I use only eo's in my soap, some bars have clay & some dont. They are very fragrant regardless! It does fade though, if left out in the open air for 6+ months or more.


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