# Over fragranced!



## deebop (Jan 20, 2017)

So. I'm new here, (hello!)  my name is Dee and I recently started making soap. I'm really enjoying it so far and haven't had any (real) problems thanks to the existence of lye calculators! Anyway one of my batches was a simple water based soap with coconut oil, shortening and olive oil. I used plumeria to fragrance it and after a few weeks, realized it was was still way too strong. It was p&j plumeria from Amazon. Lovely but sooo potent!  I used about 2oz in about 2.5 lb of CP soap. Don't try this!  Ha! Anyway I recently decided to grate it down for scraps and I think I'm going to take the plunge into rebatching it today before it dries out much more. I've read a lot about confetti soap and I'm not really thrilled by the idea. I'm thinking though (and can't really find much on this anywhere)... what if I do the boiling pot-baggie method, melt down the scraps and incorporate that MUSH into a NEW-FRESH PLAIN JANE CP BATCH? Stick blend it all together once the new cp batch is at light trace...  can anyone tell me why this won't work?  Best or worse case scenerio?  I'm feeling very mad scientist right now and might just go for it so if you are out there and you know something I should know.... speak now!! Haha!


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## cmzaha (Jan 20, 2017)

That is the amount I would use. If you continue to let them cure they should settle down with time


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## shunt2011 (Jan 20, 2017)

What was the IFRA usage rate recommended for that fragrance.  I generally use 1 oz ppo with no issues or do you just dislike the FO?    I don't rebatch so I'm no help on that front but there are a lot of posts on the forum on how to do it.   I just shred it and add to another soap.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 20, 2017)

Have you already grated it down? If not, I'd suggest leaving it alone. Plumeria is a strong scent and one that sticks, but the scent should soften some. Fragrance is the most expensive part of soaping, and most of it will burn off during rebatch, so I personally would not rebatch just because a scent is too strong.

What is it you don't like about confetti soap?

I recently made some with a batch I shredded that was Lime Leaf & Lily (kind of a green, soapy scent) and I scented the new soap with plumeria. I REALLY like that combination! So you may try shredding some of it and combining that in confetti soap with some new soap in a scent that you think will be good with the plumeria.


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## Millie (Jan 20, 2017)

I would let it cure a couple months, the scent will fade and it looks like you used the correct amount. Confetti soaps are fun too, and useful for trying out different scent combos like Dixiedragon says. I found one of my favorites that way!

I also like the mad scientist in you. I have never tried this because it means a larger batch of less than perfect soap - here is the advice from a mad scientist soaper in Denmark:

Hi Kathy
I would like to share a rebatching method which has never failed me yet. The good thing about this method is that it does not require either milk, double boiler or special fats.

To those who are familiar with hot processed soaps, the method is very easy. You mix 1/4 cold processed soap at a light trace with 3/4 grated soap scraps. Afterwards you keep on stirring the mixture in a pot at very low heat and when the CP soap eventually goes into the gel stage it will cause the soap gratings to do the same. What happens is that the heat form the natural saponification process (where soap turns to gel), plus the heat from the stove, helps to melt down the soap scraps much better than heat from the stove alone.

Ingredients:

1/4 Fresh liquid cold processed soap at a light trace (To make this, I use 2/3 part liquid oil and 1/3 part hard oil).
3/4 Grated soap
(Additional ingredients - water. If your soap scraps are very dry, you can add as much as 1/3 of the soap scraps weight when the soap reaches the gel stage.)

Procedure

Through it all, remember to stir, stir, stir and stir again,,,,,,
Make your CP soap as usual and stir it to light trace, add the grated soap and stir thoroughly. Pour the mixture in to a large cooking pot and place it on the stove at very low heat - remember to keep on stirring. After a while the mixture will bubble up and try to escape from the pot - stir it down. Eventually, the mixture will seperate into a fluid substance with small lumps, keep on stirring the mixture at low heat until it gathers (if my soap gratings are very dry, this is the point where i carefully ad some extra water - ad as little as possible. When the soap continuously create a thin membrane on the surface and a small lump of soap becomes hard in a glas with cold water, the soap is finished and you can add color, fragrance etc.

Good luck

Iben Park Hybel
Denmark

Source: http://www.millersoap.com/re.html


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## cmzaha (Jan 20, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> Have you already grated it down? If not, I'd suggest leaving it alone. Plumeria is a strong scent and one that sticks, but the scent should soften some. Fragrance is the most expensive part of soaping, and most of it will burn off during rebatch, so I personally would not rebatch just because a scent is too strong.
> 
> What is it you don't like about confetti soap?
> 
> I recently made some with a batch I shredded that was Lime Leaf & Lily (kind of a green, soapy scent) and I scented the new soap with plumeria. I REALLY like that combination! So you may try shredding some of it and combining that in confetti soap with some new soap in a scent that you think will be good with the plumeria.


A musky scent also goes well mixed with plumeria. It helps soften the sweetness.


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## deebop (Jan 20, 2017)

Awesome info people!!! I did forget to mention though that i did try the soap and after my shower my skin was itching and like... zapping!? I don't know how to explain it!? It's part of what made me want to rebatch it because it was clearly acting as a skin irritant... so I hate to say it but I probobly won't be buying any more of my oils from P&J... I'm nervous to see how the mango goes!! Anyway I've already grated it it down so I'm about to mix with some CP and make a nice plain (more liquid oil based) moisturizing soap to counteract the drying, hard-oil plumeria batch! Wish me luck!


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## dixiedragon (Jan 20, 2017)

OKay, I googled P&J - NO WHERE does it say this is skin safe!! If it is not skin safe, you need to toss the whole batch. ONLY buy skin safe fragrances! 

I strongly recommend Nurture Soap Supplies and Brambleberry, b/c they are soap people.


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## Susie (Jan 20, 2017)

^^^What Dixiedragon said!  Toss that batch and never use any more for soap.


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## cmzaha (Jan 20, 2017)

Their fragrances are skin safe if you go to their website. It also states skin safe on Amazon. Maybe you should post your full recipe, and are you sure you measured your lye correctly. Also how long did you let it cure before trying it? Fragrance manufactures are not required to have their fragrances tested with IFRA, it is their choice.


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## deebop (Jan 20, 2017)

Yeah I even emailed them and made sure they are ok for use in soaps/skin products and they assured me that they are (their oils in general). Of course they can say whatever they want, that doesn't make it true...!  Thank you all for checking into that for me that was super nice!  I am here to say though that I went through with the rebatching today and so far so good!  It's in the mold now and gelling nicely and I have to say I'm thrilled so far with the results!  I did the double baggie method. Added about a quarter cup of water to about a pound of soap shreds once it was warm. Mushed it all up and kept melting it. In the meantime I made a plain batch of CP with olive oil, veg oil and coconut oil.. about 1.5lb yield-worth  (didn't  wanna use anything super expensive in case this somehow backfired) and once it was at light trace and all the temps were in-line I added the warm mush to my CP, stick blended it all 'till it was incorperated... and it was surprisingly pretty!!! (The plumeria soap was originally colored in layers of plain, orange and reddish).  So basically what it boils down to is that I melded a CP batch of with a HP batch and (hopefully!?) forced them into a state of harmonious coexistence! Ha!  Mind you I haven't unmolded yet but as we mushed it into the mold I could see such pretty specks of the reddish. I also have to say that on the top of the original soap I had sprinkled some pink Himalayan salt crystals just for fun and gorgeousness.. (I know! Probobly contributed to the way it made my skin itch first time around?! Lol) so ultimately some of that was ground up in the soap shreds and distributed throughout the new batch!  Only one way to learn right!? Maybe it will be lovely now that it is so diluted. Maybe it will become laundry soap!? Lol. But I put my nose up to the new batch and I have to say it's lighter but it's still oh-so-plumeria :crazy: lol... I will report tomorrow afternoon when I unmold this concoction! Until then, thanks again for all your help and wish me luck! I feel kinda like a rebatch pioneer! Lol

Next time (with the rest of the shreds) thinking of using even less of the original soap and adding it to a batch with either mango, vanilla, or strawberry!  (I'm a sweet-aholic!)  Thoughts!?


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## mx5inpenn (Jan 20, 2017)

Have you had anyone else smell it? Since you used it in the normal range, I'm wondering if you might just be really sensitive to it. Pregnant women have notoriously over-active sniffers. I couldn't stand so many obnoxious smells that other people didn't even notice.


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## cmzaha (Jan 20, 2017)

deebop said:


> Yeah I even emailed them and made sure they are ok for use in soaps/skin products and they assured me that they are (their oils in general). Of course they can say whatever they want, that doesn't make it true...!  Thank you all for checking into that for me that was super nice!  I am here to say though that I went through with the rebatching today and so far so good!  It's in the mold now and gelling nicely and I have to say I'm thrilled so far with the results!  I did the double baggie method. Added about a quarter cup of water to about a pound of soap shreds once it was warm. Mushed it all up and kept melting it. In the meantime I made a plain batch of CP with olive oil, veg oil and coconut oil.. about 1.5lb yield-worth  (didn't  wanna use anything super expensive in case this somehow backfired) and once it was at light trace and all the temps were in-line I added the warm mush to my CP, stick blended it all 'till it was incorperated... and it was surprisingly pretty!!! (The plumeria soap was originally colored in layers of plain, orange and reddish).  So basically what it boils down to is that I melded a CP batch of with a HP batch and (hopefully!?) forced them into a state of harmonious coexistence! Ha!  Mind you I haven't unmolded yet but as we mushed it into the mold I could see such pretty specks of the reddish. I also have to say that on the top of the original soap I had sprinkled some pink Himalayan salt crystals just for fun and gorgeousness.. (I know! Probobly contributed to the way it made my skin itch first time around?! Lol) so ultimately some of that was ground up in the soap shreds and distributed throughout the new batch!  Only one way to learn right!? Maybe it will be lovely now that it is so diluted. Maybe it will become laundry soap!? Lol. But I put my nose up to the new batch and I have to say it's lighter but it's still oh-so-plumeria :crazy: lol... I will report tomorrow afternoon when I unmold this concoction! Until then, thanks again for all your help and wish me luck! I feel kinda like a rebatch pioneer! Lol


If you use salt on top or in a soap please use fine or extra fine salt. Crystals can cut the skin and grinding salt sharpens the edges even more. Salt should not make you itch, it is great at stopping itching.



mx6inpenn said:


> Have you had anyone else smell it? Since you used it in the normal range, I'm wondering if you might just be really sensitive to it. Pregnant women have notoriously over-active sniffers. I couldn't stand so many obnoxious smells that other people didn't even notice.


My first couple of years of selling I had a Plumeria that my customers loved but it gave me severe instant migrains so I had to search for a new one. The one I use now is very realistic slightly soft but sticks forever


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## CaraBou (Jan 20, 2017)

The only plumeria I've ever used (a handcrafted lotion) was so strong I could barely use it. Haven't been interested in it since. Sometimes the experience can ruin the fun.


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## deebop (Jan 21, 2017)

CaraBou said:


> The only plumeria I've ever used (a handcrafted lotion) was so strong I could barely use it. Haven't been interested in it since. Sometimes the experience can ruin the fun.


 
Oh, yes... so true!!
I have no interest in buying more! I will use up the rest extremely sparingly with combinations of vanilla, mango, orange and/or grapefruit.
I have a lot of shreds left and a half a bottle of oil so its a ways to go.  one of my favorite shampoos contains plumeria and that's why I thought I would give it a shot on my own... but I bet they use it in much smaller quantities!! oh well!! live and learn~!! I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who felt that way !!


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## cmzaha (Jan 21, 2017)

There are some very nice smelling realistic plumeria fo's available. Plumeria flowers are a fairly soft fragrance compared to something like honeysuckle


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## CaraBou (Jan 21, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> There are some very nice smelling realistic plumeria fo's available. Plumeria flowers are a fairly soft fragrance compared to something like honeysuckle



I imagine it's true that it need not be so strong. I had never even heard of it (that I remember) until I started getting into b&b, so it was a short lived fascination for me. But I'll try to keep an open mind and nose for more subtle varieties.


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## penelopejane (Jan 22, 2017)

There is no need to go through the HP making process. Just throw the grated soap in the new batter at a ratio of 1:2 gratings to new batter and stir. Then put it in the mold. No extra water is needed and it doesn't matter about the scent or whether the grated batch is soft or some other disasterous mistake because it seems to work out into perfect soap naturally.


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## cmzaha (Jan 22, 2017)

CaraBou said:


> I imagine it's true that it need not be so strong. I had never even heard of it (that I remember) until I started getting into b&b, so it was a short lived fascination for me. But I'll try to keep an open mind and nose for more subtle varieties.


I will try to remember to send you a sample of mine. Unless you walk into a very concentrated area of Plumerias it is really a soft sweet scent. Most of the time I cannot even smell my plumerias unless I pick one and smell it. Many of the plumeria fo's in my experience are very artificial with almost a plastic smell


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## TeresaT (Jan 22, 2017)

As someone that works for a law enforcement agency and deals with fraud on a daily basis, I am saying this from THAT frame of mind, not to bash someone.  I took a look at the P&J website and it does not pass muster.  If you look at the "about us" page, it gives little to no information about the people other than they sell "premium high quality" materials and they're a "family owned and operated" business.  It does not give any address, phone number, names of account holders, any actual information on WHO THEY ARE.  Under the "Contact Us" link, there is only a fill in the blank form.  Under "Customer Service" they only provide an email address.  There is no way of contacting them via telephone or mail.  They provide a link to their Amazon sales page.  There are no usage information on any of the fragrances and no links to the IFRA data.  However, there are links to the material safety data sheets for all of the fragrances.  The MSDS do list the address and phone number of the company.  I think it is alarming that you'd have to go to those lengths to find that information, though.  That information should be available under "Who We Are" and "Contact Us."  A reputable company will list the company name, address, telephone and fax numbers where they are readily available.  They will usually list presidents, CEOs, and managers as well.


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## deebop (Jan 23, 2017)

TeresaT said:


> As someone that works for a law enforcement agency and deals with fraud on a daily basis, I am saying this from THAT frame of mind, not to bash someone. I took a look at the P&J website and it does not pass muster. If you look at the "about us" page, it gives little to no information about the people other than they sell "premium high quality" materials and they're a "family owned and operated" business. It does not give any address, phone number, names of account holders, any actual information on WHO THEY ARE. Under the "Contact Us" link, there is only a fill in the blank form. Under "Customer Service" they only provide an email address. There is no way of contacting them via telephone or mail. They provide a link to their Amazon sales page. There are no usage information on any of the fragrances and no links to the IFRA data. However, there are links to the material safety data sheets for all of the fragrances. The MSDS do list the address and phone number of the company. I think it is alarming that you'd have to go to those lengths to find that information, though. That information should be available under "Who We Are" and "Contact Us." A reputable company will list the company name, address, telephone and fax numbers where they are readily available. They will usually list presidents, CEOs, and managers as well.


 

You know, I thoroughly agree with everything you have just said.  maybe I will give away the rest of the scents.  As I said I did email them and was assured its ok for skin care products... but somehow I don't really feel reassured? basically because the scent is so very strong.. It doesn't feel right.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 23, 2017)

Generally speaking...if you are buying from a vendor that nobody on SMF has heard of or used before - there's probably a reason.


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## cmzaha (Jan 23, 2017)

If you look up the website you will see they also have their msds sheets for any of the fo's I looked up. So I really doubt they are lying. As for most of us purchasing from them they only sell amounts to small for us to use. We surely do not know all the suppliers of legit fragrance oils. No one here, as far as I know, purchases from one of my supplies and the fella that gets my fo's duped. Why would a fragrance Oil be suspicious because it is strong. Plus strong is subjective. Think my DB....

While I understand the way Theresa looks at this I do know this company exists. I have seen them when I roaming around San Clemente, CA, but never went in. As they noe on their site they are a small family owned company and most likely to not have a President and Ceo, etc, which is only necessary with corporations. Their MSDS sheets list their information as to address and phone number. We have many of these small FO's companies in LA and some scattered in Orange County.


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## TeresaT (Jan 23, 2017)

deebop said:


> You know, I thoroughly agree with everything you have just said.  maybe I will give away the rest of the scents.  As I said I did email them and was assured its ok for skin care products... but somehow I don't really feel reassured? basically because the scent is so very strong.. It doesn't feel right.



I would not get rid of them.  I would contact the company and request the IFRA information for all of the fragrance oils you have purchased.  Until they provide that info, I would not use them simply because they are concentrated fragrances and some have different URs than others.  



cmzaha said:


> If you look up the website you will see they also have their msds sheets for any of the fo's I looked up. So I really doubt they are lying. As for most of us purchasing from them they only sell amounts to small for us to use. We surely do not know all the suppliers of legit fragrance oils. No one here, as far as I know, purchases from one of my supplies and the fella that gets my fo's duped. Why would a fragrance Oil be suspicious because it is strong. Plus strong is subjective. Think my DB....
> 
> While I understand the way Theresa looks at this I do know this company exists. I have seen them when I roaming around San Clemente, CA, but never went in. As they noe on their site they are a small family owned company and most likely to not have a President and Ceo, etc, which is only necessary with corporations. Their MSDS sheets list their information as to address and phone number. We have many of these small FO's companies in LA and some scattered in Orange County.



True, some smaller companies do not have Presidents and CEOs.  Hiwever, they do have owners/operators.  I found it very odd that there was no information at all about who those people were, how the company originated, what makes their product superior than other products, etc.  I would think if you are attempting to sell something to the public, you would put some kind of sales pitch out there.  This company has nothing like that on their website.  Although, if they've been in business for 30 years, perhaps they've been a "local" brick & mortar store that has decided to branch out into internet sales and gets most of their business via Amazon.  Maybe the website was an afterthought due to excellent Amazon sales.  I don't know.  I was just speculating based on my professional experience with internet fraud.  

ETA:  I did mention that the website has a list of all the MSDS of all the FOs they sell.  The MSDS have the address and phone number of the business.  I just found it peculiar that it was not readily available on the website itself.  Normally, good business practices would dictate that your business name, address and phone number would be readily available for clientele.


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## cmzaha (Jan 23, 2017)

TeresaT said:


> I would not get rid of them.  I would contact the company and request the IFRA information for all of the fragrance oils you have purchased.  Until they provide that info, I would not use them simply because they are concentrated fragrances and some have different URs than others.
> 
> True, some smaller companies do not have Presidents and CEOs.  Hiwever, they do have owners/operators.  I found it very odd that there was no information at all about who those people were, how the company originated, what makes their product superior than other products, etc.  I would think if you are attempting to sell something to the public, you would put some kind of sales pitch out there.  This company has nothing like that on their website.  Although, if they've been in business for 30 years, perhaps they've been a "local" brick & mortar store that has decided to branch out into internet sales and gets most of their business via Amazon.  Maybe the website was an afterthought due to excellent Amazon sales.  I don't know.  I was just speculating based on my professional experience with internet fraud.
> 
> ETA:  I did mention that the website has a list of all the MSDS of all the FOs they sell.  The MSDS have the address and phone number of the business.  I just found it peculiar that it was not readily available on the website itself.  Normally, good business practices would dictate that your business name, address and phone number would be readily available for clientele.


We have a lot of these small mom and pop businesses here in So Calif. I never went in there, and really not sure if it was an actual store front, but San Clemente an eclectic beachy town.


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## deebop (Jan 23, 2017)

TeresaT said:


> I would not get rid of them. I would contact the company and request the IFRA information for all of the fragrance oils you have purchased. Until they provide that info, I would not use them simply because they are concentrated fragrances and some have different URs than others.
> 
> True, some smaller companies do not have Presidents and CEOs. Hiwever, they do have owners/operators. I found it very odd that there was no information at all about who those people were, how the company originated, what makes their product superior than other products, etc. I would think if you are attempting to sell something to the public, you would put some kind of sales pitch out there. This company has nothing like that on their website. Although, if they've been in business for 30 years, perhaps they've been a "local" brick & mortar store that has decided to branch out into internet sales and gets most of their business via Amazon. Maybe the website was an afterthought due to excellent Amazon sales. I don't know. I was just speculating based on my professional experience with internet fraud.
> 
> ETA: I did mention that the website has a list of all the MSDS of all the FOs they sell. The MSDS have the address and phone number of the business. I just found it peculiar that it was not readily available on the website itself. Normally, good business practices would dictate that your business name, address and phone number would be readily available for clientele.


 
Yeah.... I don't pretend to know one way or another if they are "fraudulent" or not but if the scent is (nauseatingly) too strong for me, made my skin itch and feel funny AND I cant find information readily available on their products then I would just prefer to err on the side of caution and lean more toward companies that have more info, smell more pleasant etc.   
New Question tho!! Anyone have any experience using the Almond Cybilla fragrance form brambleberry?  I just made a batch of almond oatmeal last night and its great but I used 12 grams (somewhere between 10 and 14 which was the med-strong recommendation) and it still smells REALLY strong!?  (its only been one day)  its a bit much ... anyone think it will calm down?   gosh this soap making stuff is hard!~~  I feel so disappointed when I mess up!! the soap LOOKS BEAUTIFUL!~~~


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## TeresaT (Jan 23, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> We have a lot of these small mom and pop businesses here in So Calif. I never went in there, and really not sure if it was an actual store front, but San Clemente an eclectic beachy town.



Sounds like a fun place.




deebop said:


> Yeah.... I don't pretend to know one way or another if they are "fraudulent" or not but if the scent is (nauseatingly) too strong for me, made my skin itch and feel funny AND I cant find information readily available on their products then I would just prefer to err on the side of caution and lean more toward companies that have more info, smell more pleasant etc.
> New Question tho!! Anyone have any experience using the Almond Cybilla fragrance form brambleberry?  I just made a batch of almond oatmeal last night and its great but I used 12 grams (somewhere between 10 and 14 which was the med-strong recommendation) and it still smells REALLY strong!?  (its only been one day)  its a bit much ... anyone think it will calm down?   gosh this soap making stuff is hard!~~  I feel so disappointed when I mess up!! the soap LOOKS BEAUTIFUL!~~~




It sounds like you have an issue with fragrances.  Do you get migraines or have any common allergies?  Instead of going with the standard amounts of fragrance listed in IFRA or URs, try half the amount.  The next time you use that FO try using no more than 5 to 7 grams to see if you still find it to be strong.  However, FOs do tend to fade as the soao cures.


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## deebop (Jan 23, 2017)

TeresaT said:


> Sounds like a fun place.
> It sounds like you have an issue with fragrances.  Do you get migraines or have any common allergies?  Instead of going with the standard amounts of fragrance listed in IFRA or URs, try half the amount.  The next time you use that FO try using no more than 5 to 7 grams to see if you still find it to be strong.  However, FOs do tend to fade as the soao cures.



Nope, no issues. No migraines.  Just overwhelming almond scent! I've used lavender, peppermint, orange 10x, lemongrass, lemonaide cocktail, vanilla etc all at full strength and I have LOVED them all. 
Guess it's an experience thing, learn what seems right as you go!  Full strength vanilla might just be a lot more pleasant than full strength almond.  I do hope it tones down. I def won't be rebatching it, it's too adorable! Thanks for your input!

Here's a few pics of the plumeria soap!  Just for fun.  Original (layered) and the rebatch. (Slight confetti look). And it's turning out just fine and much milder now. Can't wait to try some of the rest of the shavings with a large plain batch and a hint of a tropical fruity smell I think that will be the perfect answer. (No idea why all the pics got turned sideways!! Is there a way for me to fix that? Uploading from my iPhone)


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## Millie (Jan 23, 2017)

I have rarely seen such a pretty rebatch! I think you invented a pretty cool technique. Now I'm glad you had trouble with that FO


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## deebop (Jan 23, 2017)

Millie said:


> I have rarely seen such a pretty rebatch! I think you invented a pretty cool technique. Now I'm glad you had trouble with that FO





Awww thanks so much, Millie!  How great to get some feedback! I'll say it again!  I love this forum!! I couldn't see why mixing a CP batch with a HP Rebatch wouldn't work!  I'm pretty glad I tried it too! Would definitely hate to see all that soap go to waste!  I have to admit the pink is pretty


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