# Basic among Basics



## kdm (Sep 8, 2021)

Not wanting to sacrifice too much time, or material, I've dived straight in.

The only things I know about cold process soapmaking:
- add the lye to the water as it is massively exothermic
- you need oil and lye in very precise proportions

I looked at some commonly used oils and settled on a sunflower oil and olive oil mix. I used the-sage lye calculator, resulting in the following ingredients:
60ml water
25g lye
50g sunflower oil
150g olive oil

Slowly add NaOH to water, slowly add lye mixture to oil, give it a good whizz until "tracing" occurs.

I just want to see if I can get something resembling saponification before I get fancy.

Should this work?

Thanks,


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## Marsi (Sep 8, 2021)

yes

it is easy to make a proportionally bigger mistake when making a batch this small
but with scales that are able to weigh to 2 decimal places
and careful attention to detail
it is possible to create a tiny batch

for ease of making, a 500g oil batch is less prone to weighing errors and scraping discrepancies

what is the weight of NaOH that you are using?


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## kdm (Sep 8, 2021)

Marsi said:


> what is the weight of NaOH that you are using?


25g dissolved in 60g water.

TWO dp? Oh oh. There's a problem. My scale is to the nearest FIVE g!!

Might explain why it's still gel (with a thin layer of oil on top) after 12 hours...



Marsi said:


> but with scales that are able to weigh to 2 decimal places


I was thinking about this. Two decimal places of grams? I.e. tens of milligrams? It needs to be THAT accurate?
Or is two decimal places of kg sufficient?


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## TheGecko (Sep 8, 2021)

kdm said:


> 60ml water



This is a problem...this is weight by volume, not weight by weight (grams or ounces).  Now while water is the same amount whether you use volume or actual weight, other ingredients aren't.  Think feathers and gold...while a pound is a pound...a pound of feathers can fill a dump truck, while a pound of gold fits in your hand.

I weigh all my ingredients, except for colorants as it is easier to use a measuring spoon as opposed to a scale.


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## Megan (Sep 8, 2021)

kdm said:


> I was thinking about this. Two decimal places of grams? I.e. tens of milligrams? It needs to be THAT accurate?
> Or is two decimal places of kg sufficient?


For a batch that small you would want it to be pretty accurate. I would say to the gram at least. It seems though that your batch didn't trace however if it is in layers.

One thing you did not mention is paying attention to temperatures (for cold process soapmaking). You shouldn't soap too hot or too cold. For a beginner, they usually recommend around 38 Celsius. Which is just slightly warm to the touch. Lukewarm. Not hot.
You could also do room temperature. Especially with your oils.


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## lenarenee (Sep 8, 2021)

kdm said:


> I was thinking about this. Two decimal places of grams? I.e. tens of milligrams? It needs to be THAT accurate?
> Or is two decimal places of kg sufficient?



 A good scale that weighs single grams, without going into decimal points, is what many of us here in SMF use for soap making.  (just claifying; single gram as in 50 grams of lye, rather than 50.4 grams of lye). 

If you think you are going to continually make small batches; then a it could be wise to get a scale that measures into decimals, and also to know how pure your lye is.


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## kagey (Sep 8, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> This is a problem...this is weight by volume


I believe in the metric system: 1 ml = 1 gram. 
so I don't think this will be a problem.

you've soaped at a lye to water ration that's more than 2:1
you've also used only "soft" oils
this will probably mean that it will take your soap longer than usual to solidify into a hard bar of soap.

I haven't found any major problem with rounding off number - or even going a bit over with my oils (I just consider it more "superfatting")

it sounds like you've got the important steps down:
add NaHO to water (not the other way around)
and stir & stck blend until emulsification

welcome to the soaping journey!


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## Carly B (Sep 8, 2021)

kagey said:


> I believe in the metric system: 1 ml = 1 gram.
> so I don't think this will be a problem.



1ml = 1gm for water, which has a density of 1.  So it's fine for water.  But for most
ingredients, 1 ml does not equal 1 gm. 

For example, 10ml of olive oil is 9gm (according to the Googles).  So you can see there is a difference,
even in the smallest sample.  So please don't assume ml = gm for anything but water.


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## AliOop (Sep 8, 2021)

@kdm I agree with @kagey that there was way too much water for this cold processed (CP) soap. As a little background, most soap/lye calculators were built back in the day that the hot process (HP) soaping was the norm. HP requires a lot more water than CP, because water evaporates during the time that the HP soap is "cooked."

For that reason, most of us recommend that you *don't use the default lye setting*, which is always *Water as Percent of Oils,* and always set to 38%. Since that is the setting for HP soap, you end up with way too much water for CP soap. This is amplified when you make a recipe like yours with only "soft" oils, resulting in a very liquid batter that will take a long time to firm up.

Instead of the default lye setting, I strongly recommend that you select *Lye Concentration. *Set it to 33% as a good starting point for a beginner. The other lye setting, *Water to Lye Ratio*, is just another way to express Lye Concentration, so if you are more comfortable with a ratio like 2:1 instead of a percentage like 33%, then feel free to use that lye setting. But usually *Lye Concentration *is the easiest for beginners since it is one number to think about, rather than two.


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## kdm (Sep 8, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> This is a problem...this is weight by volume, not weight by weight (grams or ounces).


OKay, then, 60g of water. All my other measurements are in g and were weighed, but as you say 60g of water will barely touch the bottom of a dumptruck. Even if it's on the moon. ;-)



Megan said:


> One thing you did not mention is paying attention to temperatures (for cold process soapmaking).


The Hydroxide solution was still warm from dissolving in the water, but the oil was room temp (although last night in the Midlands, room temp was about 28C!



AliOop said:


> Instead of the default lye setting, I strongly recommend that you select *Lye Concentration. *Set it to 33% as a good starting point for a beginner.


Ooof that TRIPLED the amount of Hydroxide for water! OKay.

Lessons are:

Set Lye conc. to 33%
Get better scales
Employ some "harder" oils
Don't be tight, just make a larger batch
Thanks, all.


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## AliOop (Sep 8, 2021)

You have learned much today, Grasshopper!  

NOTE: If you are willing to make batches of at least 500g, then a scale that measures to 1g is sufficient. You only need the more accurate scales if you want to continue making the uber-small batches like your first one. 

Also, if that batch is still not firming up, consider setting it on a heating pad turned to high, and covering it with a box, or a piece of cardboard covered with a blanket. Applying that additional heat for a few hours will encourage "gel" - after which it is normally firm enough to unmold in about 24 hours. Might be longer tho with all the additional water + all soft oils.


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## Babyshoes (Sep 8, 2021)

Using all liquid oils is a little tricky for your first recipe - I've found that they can take longer than you expect when stick blending to get to trace. Hopefully it'll all come together by tomorrow and start looking like soap, but it might take a few days after that to firm up. 
If it doesn't turn into soap eventually, don't get too down, we all have failures at times, and as long as you learn from it, it's not wasted! 

For next time, if you're willing to use animal products, lard is a very well behaved oil for soap making (slow trace, hard bar), and it's one of the cheaper oils here in the UK that doesn't have a high risk of rancid soap, unlike regular sunflower oil. It's only 39p for a 250g block in most supermarkets, and can be frozen if you want to buy a fair bit in advance. I like it at 40%, but you could go much higher,  even up to 100%. Maybe add about 15-20% coconut oil (cheapest I've found recently was £2.50ish for 500g in Sainsbury's, iirc) and up to 50% olive oil (which you already have), and you can make a reasonably balanced, basic soap without spending awfully much money. 

I'm sure the scale you have is adequate for now, just make slightly larger batches as already discussed. A gram or two here or there is really not much in a batch weighing 500g or more. Mine is certainly not the most accurate thing in the world (often changes by one or two grams a few seconds after you think it's settled) and I've made several successful batches since I started earlier this year.


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## Marsi (Sep 8, 2021)

kdm said:


> I was thinking about this. Two decimal places of grams? I.e. tens of milligrams? It needs to be THAT accurate?
> Or is two decimal places of kg sufficient?



Small batches need accurate scales

As your batch size increases, your scales can be larger and less sensitive

for the small batch size you have
you can easily introduce a superfat variance of 2-3% if you use scales that round to the gram


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## kdm (Sep 9, 2021)

OKay. Sucked up everything you guys said. Still trying to draw only on what I have lying around in the shed. New "tight-arse beginner's recipe."
100g olive oil
100g sunflower oil
100g (milk) butter
5g beeswax
123g NaOH
80ml water

A new set of scales which go to the nearest 1g.

This one, I could barely pour. I think it had started to gel before I could get it out of the jug. I did just about manage to mix in some mica power out of curiosity.
I even made a new silicone mould. (I am a liar. I made this mould ages ago for moulding polyester penturning blanks.)

Now I have to wait a MONTH before I find out if I made soap? OKay. Speak to you in October.


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## Tara_H (Sep 9, 2021)

I haven't tried it myself, but I've read lots of things that say that dairy butter tends to smell bad in soap...
If you can get something like frytex over there it should be pretty cheap and a better source of hard fats.


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## kdm (Sep 9, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> I haven't tried it myself, but I've read lots of things that say that dairy butter tends to smell bad in soap...


Gotta be honest, this smells like soap. Already. You know what they say? "If it tastes like soap and smells like soap, it probably is soap."
...but it stings the tongue, so I won't be tasting large chunks of it any time soon.


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## Marsi (Sep 9, 2021)

did your NaOH dissolve?
(the water quantity is too low for the weight of NaOH used; your soap may have undissolved NaOH)

an easy rule of thumb is to have your water range between one (50% solution) to two (33.3% solution) times the NaOH weight
(for a beginner recipe, more water can be helpful and a lye concentration range of 30% to 33% is often recommended)

*edited to add
I ran your recipe through a calculator
you have too much NaOH for the amount of oils you have
(the error is in the NaOH weight, not the water - could this be a typing error?)


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 9, 2021)

kdm said:


> Now I have to wait a MONTH before I find out if I made soap? OKay. Speak to you in October.


The impatient might throw an eye on liquid soap instead of bar soap. If you have a sophisticated recipe, you can make soap from the oils to the dispenser bottle in three hours or less, and nobody will judge you for using soft oils or dairy butter.
It's just that a precise scale is even more important for LS than it is for bar soap. 

ETA: Not wanting to distract from your actual inquiry, but sometimes a bit of a broader perspective can be helpful. A nutritionally healthy grocery store shelf just isn't a good place to find all ingredients for awesome bar soaps.


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## kdm (Sep 9, 2021)

Marsi said:


> did your NaOH dissolve?
> (the water quantity is too low and your soap may have undissolved NaOH)


You know, I wondered about this. The dissolving is exothermic and the heat probably allows more Hydroixide to dissolve. By the time I farted around stirring in mica, little streamers of white were starting to form on the lye, so my guess is it was coming out of saturation.



Marsi said:


> an easy rule of thumb is to have your water range between one (50% solution) to two (33.3% solution) times the NaOH weight
> (for a beginner recipe, more water can be helpful and a lye concentration range of 30% to 33% is often recommended)


Yeah, did that, and put the absolute minimum quantity of water, as not using a hot recipe, but like I say I think that gave a saturated solution. The calculator suggested this would yield a hard soap and gave me the option of (up to) a further 40ml of water. I didn't add the extra water as I was afraid of cooling the solution further and maybe making more of the solute come out. Also, my first effort still isn't firm and I was desperately trying to make a hard soap.



Marsi said:


> I ran your recipe through a calculator
> you have too much NaOH


Me too. I used the-sage.com. Which one did you use? Either way, I thin I'll do the same recipe again, but with 100ml water.


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## kdm (Sep 9, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> The impatient might throw an eye on liquid soap instead of bar soap. If you have a sophisticated recipe, you can make soap from the oils to the dispenser bottle in three hours or less, and nobody will judge you for using soft oils or dairy butter.
> It's just that a precise scale is even more important for LS than it is for bar soap.


My sole interest is in bar soap. for family gifts, it just seems more "considered". Soap enthusiast may not judge, but they ain't met my family.



ResolvableOwl said:


> ETA: Not wanting to distract from your actual inquiry, but sometimes a bit of a broader perspective can be helpful. A nutritionally healthy grocery store shelf just isn't a good place to find all ingredients for awesome bar soaps.


"nutritionally healthy grocery store "???!?! I'm using crap I have lying around in my shed! But I think I see what you're saying.


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 9, 2021)

kdm said:


> My sole interest is in bar soap.


Then I recommend you to select appropriate oils. You have now seen that soapmaking works in principle, you have got many of the basic tools, concepts and ingredients. And family deserves decent gifts. (sorry in case I'm judging your family too benevolently )

Either stay with pure olive oil and go the long way of castile enlightenment (there, one month is BY FAR not sufficient – but you essentially have no free parameters in the recipe either).

Or seek for balanced recipes, i. e. with hard oils like palm, lard, or soy wax. Fiddling with softish soaps gives you precious experience, but this experience is of limited use once you switch to a recipe to happily give out of hand.


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## Marsi (Sep 9, 2021)

kdm said:


> You know, I wondered about this. The dissolving is exothermic and the heat probably allows more Hydroixide to dissolve. By the time I farted around stirring in mica, little streamers of white were starting to form on the lye, so my guess is it was coming out of saturation.



you are looking at caustic steam
put a loose lid on it, use an exhaust fan or other ventilation
dont breathe the fumes



kdm said:


> Yeah, did that, and put the absolute minimum quantity of water, as not using a hot recipe, but like I say I think that gave a saturated solution. The calculator suggested this would yield a hard soap and gave me the option of (up to) a further 40ml of water. I didn't add the extra water as I was afraid of cooling the solution further and maybe making more of the solute come out.



there is no need to work so hard to make a soap with a saturated lye solution when a 33% lye solution is easier and safer to use 
it is easy to calculate - 123g of NaOH needs 246g of water to make a 2:1 (or 33.3%) lye solution

it does not matter if your lye solution gets down to room temperature
(with the proviso that you dont overheat your oils - oils only need to be warm enough to melt hard oils, soft oils can be at room temperature)



kdm said:


> Also, my first effort still isn't firm and I was desperately trying to make a hard soap.



water is not what makes your final soap hard or soft, it is your choice of oils



kdm said:


> Me too. I used the-sage.com. Which one did you use? Either way, I thin I'll do the same recipe again, but with 100ml water.


i suggest that 123g of water is the minium amount for this recipe, and about 160g of water might be sweet for this recipe.

this recipe will be soft because the oils are soft oils (liquid at room temperature is an easy way to distinguish soft oils from hard oils, hard oils are solid at room temperature)

while it would be easier to add hard oils to firm up the recipe, you can use a small amount of salt (eg. 5g dissolve in your water before you add the NaOH) to increase hardness and the same in sugar to bring back some bubbles (salt and beeswax reduce bubbles)

this soap calculator is a good one

*edited
welcome to the addiction


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## earlene (Sep 9, 2021)

Two points:

1.  You used WAY too much NaOH for that recipe.  What Soap Calculator are you using???  What settings???
2.  NaOH dissolves in an equal amount of water weight, not less.  Unless your NaOH sat around and absorbed 53 grams of water before you ever weighed it out, it could not dissolve in that amount of water (80 grams of water will dissolve 80 grams of NaOH, but not 123 grams.)

The other option that would allow the NaOH to dissolve is IF you used milk (not butter, but actual milk) PLUS the water, which is then 180 grams of liquid.  That would dissolve 123 grams of NaOH.  But you said butter, so I cannot believe that your NaOH fully dissolved.  Did you use a clear container and ensure that it had all dissolved before adding it to the oils?  It was more likely a slurry resembling water with too much salt or too much sugar or even gruel or porridge.

However, according to Soapmaking Recipe Builder & Lye Calculator and SoapCalc.com depending on if you chose "Milk Fat, any bovine" or "Ghee, any bovine" for that amount of fat (305 grams of oil total), you only needed 41.35 grams of NaOH if you chose a 5% superfat.


So since you soap 'stings' your tongue (meaning it zaps & is lye heavy), then it seems quite likely that it didn't all dissolve AND you ended up with undissolved NaOH in your soap.


PLEASE, before you make another batch of soap, put the recipe here before us to double check your figures.  None of us would have given the go-ahead on that recipe because it is NOT SAFE soap.


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## TheGecko (Sep 10, 2021)

kagey said:


> I believe in the metric system: 1 ml = 1 gram.
> so I don't think this will be a problem.



It depends on the density of the ingredient doesn’t matter if it’s Metric or Imperial. Again 8 oz of water by volume is the same as 8 oz of water by weight, but 8 oz of EVOO by volume is 7.9 oz by weight. 

I’ll be honest…I never gave much thought to the differences of volume vs weight, though perhaps I should have considering I use brown sugar in baking and the rule of thumb is that you have to pack it down.  It wasn’t until I started watching the Great British Baking Show and realized how much more accurate measuring by weight is, especially when it comes to solid or dry ingredients.  And then I got into soap making and the first time I tried to put a new ingredient into SoapMaker 3, it asked me what the density of the ingredient was and I was like…WTH?!?


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## kdm (Sep 10, 2021)

Babyshoes said:


> If it doesn't turn into soap eventually, don't get too down, we all have failures at times, and as long as you learn from it, it's not wasted!


I'm happy that it was sort of soap coloured and sort of soapy!


Babyshoes said:


> ... lard is a very well behaved oil for soap making...
> ... Maybe add about 15-20% coconut oil ...


On my way to Tesco just now! (Other supermarkets do exist and may stock soapmaking products.  )


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## kdm (Sep 10, 2021)

earlene said:


> Two points:
> 1.  You used WAY too much NaOH for that recipe.  What Soap Calculator are you using???  What settings???


the-sage.com calculator. I entered the mass of the ingredients:

100g dairy butter
100g olive oil
100g sunflower oil
5g beeswax
...and it came back with 123g NaOH and 76-115ml water. Per earlier advice, I had also set Lye concentration 33%. My first experiment was too runny, so I went with 80ml water.

*I notice that if I go back to default settings for concentration, it does suggest 40.7g.*

I have a feeling the w/w setting for concentration is inverted in this calculator, @AliOop, because if I propose 66%, the NaOH drops to 62g.



earlene said:


> 2.  NaOH dissolves in an equal amount of water weight, not less.  Unless your NaOH sat around and absorbed 53 grams of water before you ever weighed it out, it could not dissolve in that amount of water (80 grams of water will dissolve 80 grams of NaOH, but not 123 grams.)


How can I tell if my NaOH is damp? It's a fresh bottle.


earlene said:


> The other option that would allow the NaOH to dissolve is IF you used milk (not butter, but actual milk) PLUS the water, which is then 180 grams of liquid.  That would dissolve 123 grams of NaOH.  But you said butter, so I cannot believe that your NaOH fully dissolved.  Did you use a clear container and ensure that it had all dissolved before adding it to the oils?  It was more likely a slurry resembling water with too much salt or too much sugar or even gruel or porridge.


Stainless bowl. The only liquid I added the dry hydroxide to was water. It wasn't sludgy; just maybe slightly grey, but definitely dissolved. I suspect it dissolved so well due to the heat generated. I suspect it was saturate and that it started to com out of solution as it cooled.


earlene said:


> So since you soap 'stings' your tongue (meaning it zaps & is lye heavy), then it seems quite likely that it didn't all dissolve AND you ended up with undissolved NaOH in your soap.


Based on the zappiness, I wouldn't have used it.


earlene said:


> PLEASE, before you make another batch of soap, put the recipe here before us to double check your figures.  None of us would have given the go-ahead on that recipe because it is NOT SAFE soap.


Appreciated.


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 10, 2021)

kdm said:


> OKay. Sucked up everything you guys said. Still trying to draw only on what I have lying around in the shed. New "tight-arse beginner's recipe."
> 100g olive oil
> 100g sunflower oil
> 100g (milk) butter
> ...


Oh dear - I use only a little more lye than that to saponify 1kg of oils!  The reason is burns you tongue is because it is lye heavy.  Your water should always be at the bare minimum the same weight as the lye.  SO you may have to biff this lot out beccaseu your lye would not have been able to dissolve properly.


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## Babyshoes (Sep 10, 2021)

kdm said:


> I'm happy that it was sort of soap coloured and sort of soapy!
> 
> On my way to Tesco just now! (Other supermarkets do exist and may stock soapmaking products.  )



I threw together a simple recipe using the 3 oils I suggested; you're welcome to use this until you have a better feel for developing your own recipes.
It should be reasonably hard, not too drying, and will have a small but sufficient amount of bubbles. It also shouldn't be too prone to DOS. (dreaded orange spots - aka rancid soap.)


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 10, 2021)

Tesco:
Lard
Rice Bran Oil
Coconut Oil - this is pretty expensive.  it doesn't have to be virgin or organic, so if you can get cheaper, go for it
and of course Olive oil you have
How about Avocado Oil?  That's quite nice too ( but expensive)  you only need to use 5% in your recipe.

Sing out when you get home and we'll throw together a recipe for ya!


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## kdm (Sep 10, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Oh dear - I use only a little more lye than that to saponify 1kg of oils!  The reason is burns you tongue is because it is lye heavy.  Your water should always be at the bare minimum the same weight as the lye.  SO you may have to biff this lot out beccaseu your lye would not have been able to dissolve properly.


Duly "biffed". There were visible crystals on the surface today. Not putting that anywhere near any living thing.


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## kdm (Sep 10, 2021)

Marsi said:


> you are looking at caustic steam


Well ventilated shed and a respirator!


Marsi said:


> there is no need to work so hard to make a soap with a saturated lye solution when a 33% lye solution is easier and safer to use
> it is easy to calculate - 123g of NaOH needs 246g of water to make a 2:1 (or 33.3%) lye solution


I wasn't working hard on saturating it: it's what the calculator recommended when I requests a 33% solution. I firmly believe the-sage calculator works in % liquid, not % hydroxide! Which is how I ended up with stupid 1:2 instead of 2:1 !


Marsi said:


> water is not what makes your final soap hard or soft, it is your choice of oils


Noted.


Marsi said:


> welcome to the addiction


Where's the "roll-eyes" smiley!?!?


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## earlene (Sep 10, 2021)

kdm said:


> the-sage.com calculator. I entered the mass of the ingredients:
> 
> 100g dairy butter
> 100g olive oil
> ...




I see that Lye Calculator - TheSage.com gives 40.7 grams of NaOH for 6% SuperFat with a range of water of 76 to 114 fluid ounces.





I don't like this calculator for a couple of reasons.

First, it requires 2 steps to get your calculations.  I prefer the ones that update on-the-fly without the additional click to get the results.

Second, I like a little more precision in my calculator than this one has.  (The results for lye concentration is not precisely portrayed in this calculator, whereas it can be in many others.)  Plus I don't the mixing of weights of measure.  When I choose 'grams' I want all ingredients to be listed in grams.  In any case, I find this calculator to be too cumbersome for my liking, so I am not well versed in using it as I found others I liked better.

For the precision I prefer in a calculator, I recommend either

soapee.com 

or 









						Soapmaking Recipe Software & Lye Calculator
					

Soapmaking Recipe Software & Lye Calculator




					www.soapmakingfriend.com
				




SoapCalc is the choice of many soapmakers & I used it for awhile myself, but it's another that requires that second step, whereas the two I recommend make the adjustments on-the-fly whenever I make a change to the recipe, so the result is updated immediately on the same page.

As for how you can determine if your lye is damp, look for clumps.  A fresh bottle of NaOH should be dry without any clumping whatsoever.  Always keep the lid on tight between uses, and replace the lid immediately after you weigh your dry lye on your scale.  Don't leave the weighed dry lye out to the air for an extended period of time, not just for safety reasons, but also so it won't absorb additional ambient water from the air, as it is prone to do given the chance.

Incidentally, everyone's lye solution heats up; it is the nature of lye.  In fact, be careful if you ever use a liquid other than water to make your solution, as any sugar-containing liquid will increase the exothermic reaction so much that the solution can boil over and volcano out of the mixing vessel quite explosively.


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## AliOop (Sep 10, 2021)

Late to the party here, but I apologize @kdm if I gave the impression that you should use 33% concentration and also reduce water from there. That isn't at all what I meant to say, since the purpose of using the concentration % is that you don't do any more fiddling with the amount of liquid. 

That being said, it did occur to me that somehow your water and lye amounts were reversed. Sounds like you have it all sorted now.


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## kdm (Sep 10, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Late to the party here, but I apologize @kdm if I gave the impression that you should use 33% concentration and also reduce water from there. That isn't at all what I meant to say, since the purpose of using the concentration % is that you don't do any more fiddling with the amount of liquid.


Not in the slightest bit necessary! If I had my thinking head on I should have realised that there was no way I should dissolve twice the mass of Hydroxide in water! This calculator is definitely upside-down. It gives 100-n% ratios.
Also, it was the calculator (subsequently shown to not be anyone's favourite!) which gave a range for the water quantity. Not you.


AliOop said:


> That being said, it did occur to me that somehow your water and lye amounts were reversed. Sounds like you have it all sorted now.


I think so. I'll use a different calculator! You're still on the Christmas Card List! ;-)


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 10, 2021)

kdm said:


> I think so. I'll use a different calculator! You're still on the Christmas Card List! ;-)


Can I get a Christmas card too? ☺


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## Marsi (Sep 10, 2021)

kdm said:


> Where's the "roll-eyes" smiley!?!?







 Christmas card


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## kdm (Sep 10, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Can I get a Christmas card too? ☺


Well, it's normally for folk who erroneously think they ejected themselves from the list. I mean you're on the Teflon coated list of "Good Guys" which is pretty enviable. I don't want to start a kind of snowball effect nor sound like a psychopath, but you're ALL on some kind of list.


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## kdm (Sep 10, 2021)

Marsi said:


> Christmas card


Oh, dear God, what have I done?


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## AliOop (Sep 11, 2021)

kdm said:


> Oh, dear God, what have I done?


No worries, just post a thread here on SMF and tag us all. Done.


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## Arimara (Sep 11, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> The impatient might throw an eye on liquid soap instead of bar soap. If you have a sophisticated recipe, you can make soap from the oils to the dispenser bottle in three hours or less, and nobody will judge you for using soft oils or *dairy butter*.
> It's just that a precise scale is even more important for LS than it is for bar soap.
> 
> ETA: Not wanting to distract from your actual inquiry, but sometimes a bit of a broader perspective can be helpful. A nutritionally healthy grocery store shelf just isn't a good place to find all ingredients for awesome bar soaps.


Dairy butter soap makes an incredibly stinky soap with no way of remedy for it. It truly becomes a wasted resource better left to some toasted or fresh baked bread at the least. Would I judge someone for using it? Yes, I would if I had to allow that person in my home or if, after the numerous complaints/warnings on here were ignored, they complain about their dairy butter soap.


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 12, 2021)

Arimara said:


> Dairy butter soap makes an incredibly stinky soap with no way of remedy for it. It truly becomes a wasted resource better left to some toasted or fresh baked bread at the least. Would I judge someone for using it? Yes, I would if I had to allow that person in my home or if, after the numerous complaints/warnings on here were ignored, they complain about their dairy butter soap.


True @Arimara - I wouldn't make or use use dairy butter in soap if you paid me!
@kdm have you considered making @Zany's no slime castile?  That would be an easy one. I'd still go for 10% CO in it though, but that's just me.


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## kdm (Sep 12, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> True @Arimara - I wouldn't make or use use dairy butter in soap if you paid me!


I binned it off as it had too much Hydroxide. I'm not feeling much love for it. Message received! 


KiwiMoose said:


> @kdm have you considered making @Zany's no slime castile?  That would be an easy one. I'd still go for 10% CO in it though, but that's just me.


Yaeh. having been to both extremes I put CO in the third batch and it resembles soap. There are so many things to try. This was an experiment to see if I could use stuff I had around me. Now that I've augmented that with "other stuff" I'm probably equipped to try existing recipes!


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 12, 2021)

Arimara said:


> with no way of remedy for it


That's a very bold statement – shouldn't you rather state that _you personally just don't know_ about a remedy? I _am_ with you all that dairy butter just makes no sense in soap from just about any perspective you look at it. But I am _not_ d'accord that there is absolutely no way to make a soap from dairy butter that is unoffensive. Reason: I have tried it myself, successfully. There is physically existing evidence that it works.
I wish people would be easier to accept that the equation of dairy butter with stinky soap, while correct in particular cases, overall is over-simplistic, biased, and incomplete/uninformed/ignorant. I don't understand what people are hoping to achieve by defending prejudices in the face of contradicting evidence.


Sorry to OP for off-topic.


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## kdm (Sep 12, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> I wish people would be easier to accept that the equation of dairy butter with stinky soap, while correct in particular cases, overall is over-simplistic, biased, and incomplete/uninformed/ignorant. I don't understand what people are hoping to achieve by defending prejudices in the face of contradicting evidence.
> 
> Sorry to OP for off-topic.


Hell, no. If you're going to get the big wooden spoon out, my threads are the best place for it!


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## Arimara (Sep 12, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> That's a very bold statement – shouldn't you rather state that _you personally just don't know_ about a remedy? I _am_ with you all that dairy butter just makes no sense in soap from just about any perspective you look at it. But I am _not_ d'accord that there is absolutely no way to make a soap from dairy butter that is unoffensive. Reason: I have tried it myself, successfully. There is physically existing evidence that it works.
> I wish people would be easier to accept that the equation of dairy butter with stinky soap, while correct in particular cases, overall is over-simplistic, biased, and incomplete/uninformed/ignorant. I don't understand what people are hoping to achieve by defending prejudices in the face of contradicting evidence.
> 
> 
> Sorry to OP for off-topic.


I'm sorry but I really don't care how I'm coming off right now. Butter soap stinks, especially to people like me who have the nose to pick that scent up and unless you're going to take up the task of testing every single brand of butter in existance, your soap may just be a minority to you.


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 13, 2021)

Arimara said:


> your soap may just be a minority to you.


That might be well the case. But there is also only a minority of people who have climbed Mt. Everest – still I don't yell around that Mt. Everest is absolutely unclimbable just because I tried and failed, and only a minority succeded.


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## cmzaha (Sep 13, 2021)

kdm said:


> Gotta be honest, this smells like soap. Already. You know what they say? "If it tastes like soap and smells like soap, it probably is soap."
> ...but it stings the tongue, so I won't be tasting large chunks of it any time soon.


You may not think it smells like soap when you use it. Sorry, milk fat butter tends to smell really bad in soap especially after you rinse it off your hands.


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 13, 2021)

Butter belongs on toast


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## cmzaha (Sep 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> That's a very bold statement – shouldn't you rather state that _you personally just don't know_ about a remedy? I _am_ with you all that dairy butter just makes no sense in soap from just about any perspective you look at it. But I am _not_ d'accord that there is absolutely no way to make a soap from dairy butter that is unoffensive. Reason: I have tried it myself, successfully. There is physically existing evidence that it works.
> I wish people would be easier to accept that the equation of dairy butter with stinky soap, while correct in particular cases, overall is over-simplistic, biased, and incomplete/uninformed/ignorant. I don't understand what people are hoping to achieve by defending prejudices in the face of contradicting evidence.
> 
> 
> Sorry to OP for off-topic.


I tried many ways and batches of making soap with several brands of dairy butter and believe me when I say everyone left a horrible lingering odor when rinsed off my hands. This was also true for the other gals which were also experimenting with various kinds of dairy butters. While the soap did not initially smell bad it smelled after using it. So while you may have had success there were several of us in another forum several years that tried for months and all agreed that it is simply not worth the waste of ingredients. You might think we did not make it correctly but we were all experienced soapmakers, not newbies.


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 13, 2021)

I don't think we're coming further here. You insist on your observations, I will insist on mine. Once again: I do _not_ deny the validity of your bad experiences with dairy butter. But I _do_ question the dogmatism that you deduce from it.

I don't understand the reason why you are repeating yourself. You should be


cmzaha said:


> experienced soapmakers, not newbies


enough to know that my soap will not magically start stinking, just because someone on the other side of the planet insists that it better should.


@kdm That's exactly why I apologised for “off-topic”. We have had this topic often enough that I know we won't come to a satisfactory settlement any time soon. The only ray of hope came from @KiwiMoose.


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## AliOop (Sep 13, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Butter belongs on toast


Or baked potatoes 

Also, I think it depends on who is doing the smelling. Some folks just aren’t as bothered by certain smells or tastes - the same ones that others find intolerable. Cilantro, anyone? 

That’s being said, I do believe the majority of folks do find the smell of butter in soap to be repulsive. I don’t deny the experience of those who don’t, but since I and many others do, I don’t recommend it, either.


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## kdm (Sep 13, 2021)

Arimara said:


> especially to people like me who have the nose to pick that scent up and unless you're going to take up the task of testing every single brand of butter in existance, your soap may just be a minority to you.


You know, that's a good point. I know I smell things differently to other people. The butter recipe just never turned into soap, but i didn't detect anything rancid about it. However, there's something about, for example grapefruit, which just smells like Body odour to me.

Actually, now I think about it. Butter is pretty ikky once left to air for a few days. Is that the "off" smell you folks are describing?


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## AliOop (Sep 13, 2021)

To me, it smells like vomit as soon as the soap gets wet. I don't smell anything bad while the soap is dry, unless I stick my nose right up to it and really inhale to get a faint whiff of it. But somehow, the smell remains on my hands after washing. Yuck, I'm gagging now as I describe it. 

Everyone describes is a bit differently, so YMMV.


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 13, 2021)

Just to add some perspective, I have noticed that pungent smell during my acidified boiling as well, very vividly (could smell it in the whole kitchen for two days). I second everyone of you that it is really disgusting. If I'd try to describe it, I'd mention rancid butter but it's much worse, more like dairy products really gone bad, Limburger cheese, goat cheese, sweat (like in shoes or sports clothing overdue to washing), and also vomit, yes.

I'm also mentioning this because I'm tired of the ridiculous accusation that I were insensitive/ignorant to the bad smell that dairy soap can develop. I can't quantify my smelling capability in hard numbers, but I have no reason to assume it is so sub-average that I would miss a smell that my soap would leave on my skin.

I do see one single possibility to resolve this situation. I wish I could contribute to it more than just recommend everyone to relax, and realise that it is inappropriate rhetorical trickery to deny inconvenient evidence by questioning the validity of who stands in for it.

Why is it so difficult to just say _“Hey, great that you found a crazy stupid way to make dairy butter soap no longer that stinky. You have extended the horizon of the possible, and since you admit yourself that it's highly impractical, and even advise against it by yourself, our conclusions don't even contradict.”_? I want nothing more.


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## kdm (Sep 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Why is it so difficult to just say _“Hey, great that you found a crazy stupid way to make dairy butter soap no longer that stinky._


A the moment, I'm soo pleased with myself that I made something resembling SOAP! the inter-specialist-olefactory-rivalry is a bonus!


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## kdm (Sep 14, 2021)

How long should I wait before I wet it and wipe it on skin? (Ooo-errr, sounds really rude. Not the intent.)


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 14, 2021)

You _should_ wait at the very least three weeks. However, it is _safe_ to do so after a few days (how long exactly depends on oil blend, additives, temperatures etc.). The zap test will tell you when this faster part of saponification is done. It won't tell you how the soap will perform once it's fully cured, too early tests can be disappointing and misleading.


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## kdm (Sep 15, 2021)

Oh, man. This reminds me of being a teenager. I NEED MY INSTANT FIX!   It's like taking a photograph and having to wait until you've used teh whole film, then waiting another week for it o get developed. Can you imagine that?


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 15, 2021)

No, I can _not_ imagine that . I develop my films on my own. Lead time from camera to negatives is about mere two hours (including brewing the developer, but tbf drying time comes on top of this. Nobody likes water stains on negative strips).

But the “use up the whole film” pain is real. I've once found an old b/w film cartridge with the note “X shots left” on it written by my dad, and I squeezed it into a development session – just to find out that it was 15 years old vacation photos .


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 15, 2021)

kdm said:


> Oh, man. This reminds me of being a teenager. I NEED MY INSTANT FIX!   It's like taking a photograph and having to wait until you've used teh whole film, then waiting another week for it o get developed. Can you imagine that?


Whoever heard of such a thing! lol.

You can use it if you like (as long as it is not zappy)- but it will be a bit harsh until it cures a bit longer.  It will still lather, but will lather better after more curing too.


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## Susie (Sep 15, 2021)

But if you use it early, you will learn why soap needs to cure 4-6 weeks minimum. 

Never feel too bad about making bad soap. We've all been there and done that. I think that is what drives us to come to a forum like this and ask questions and learn better. 

My favorite soap calculator is Soapee.com. I never liked any of the others much, and I learned that one before SMF came out, so I stick with it. Also, all of my recipes are saved over there.


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## kdm (Sep 15, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> I've once found an old b/w film cartridge with the note “X shots left” on it written by my dad,


Stone me, who winds the film back into the cartridge to use the rest later? (Yes, apart from brewing my own developer, I have "darkroom experience"!


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## kdm (Sep 15, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> You can use it if you like (as long as it is not zappy)- but it will be a bit harsh until it cures a bit longer.  It will still lather, but will lather better after more curing too.


IT LATHERS! I MADE SOAP!
And it doesn't sting my man-bits, so that's a double-whammy!
It makes my skin ... "squeaky clean". Is that a good thing?


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 15, 2021)

kdm said:


> IT LATHERS! I MADE SOAP!
> And it doesn't sting my man-bits, so that's a double-whammy!
> It makes my skin ... "squeaky clean". Is that a good thing?


Squeaky clean can be more acceptable to men folk more so than others.  Some of us equate 'squeaky clean' to being a bit too stripping.  An example of (the opposite effect of) this is that my son and hubby both complain that my soap 'doesn't rinse off properly' and 'leaves their skin feeling greasy' which is man speak for 'it leaves a bit of oil on my skin that makes them feel soft rather than stripped'. lol

Try again after a month and see if it's changed.


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 16, 2021)

kdm said:


> Stone me, who winds the film back into the cartridge to use the rest later? (Yes, apart from brewing my own developer, I have "darkroom experience"!


I guess it had to do with that it for whatever reason was a b/w film. I can only guess, but back then, he might have wanted to switch to a colour film, but did want to find a more sensible use for the rest of the b/w, than just waste them? I asked him, he couldn't remember, lol.


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## kdm (Sep 16, 2021)

kdm said:


> IT LATHERS! I MADE SOAP!


With a bit of a twiddle with badger hair brush, it makes for a BRILLIANT shave! Oh, I love this. Shave foam which doesn't make me smell like a fairy.


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