# Question re creating colorants using organics



## gigisiguenza (Jul 16, 2015)

Ok, since it appears it's going to be yet another week or so before I can make my first batch of soap (I forgot some supplies and ingredients, so have to do some ordering), I'm going to use the delay to begin making colorants. This means I've got yet more questions LOL. (You are all gonna get sick of my questions soon, so I'll apologize ahead of time for my geeky tendency to investigate everything hehehe)

My oodles of research has given tons of info, and out of all that I think there are two methods I want to try - pureed/liquefied organic material, and infused oils.

Purees/liquefied - If I wanted to use fruits/veggies juices or purees to color my soap, do I need to add a preservative to them to prevent them from going funky over time in the soap, or would the saponification process itself take care of that? And, if a preservative is the answer, what are the natural substance options? or would I need to use a synthetic preservative?

Infusing - I've got avocado oil available (not a huge amount, but some), and I figured it would be good for infusion. If I'm wrong in this thinking, or if there is a more economical oil option, please let me know. My question is, what is the best ratio of organics to oil to use? I've got a bunch of options available, such as saffron, achiote powder, turmeric powder, etc, and I'll definitely be ordering some organics when I order my missing ingredients, so I'll soon have others, but I want to get some started now.  - Also, do I have to use heat to infuse, or can I set the jars in a sunny window and let natural heat and time do it?

Thanks in advance for your patience with my tons of questions and your help


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## Susie (Jul 16, 2015)

You need to make a batch or four using nothing but the basic oils and scents.  When you complicate the recipe with purees and infused oils, you up your chances for disaster.  Save the more complicated stuff for down the road a bit.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 16, 2015)

^^^^ seconded. Just make an uncoloured batch to start off with, that way you know what your recipe itself is doing before adding too many variables in to the mix. Colours are great, but a soap is soap without them


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## Obsidian (Jul 16, 2015)

No preservative needed when using juice/puree, the high PH of soap keeps it from molding.

I generally use olive oil for infusing. Use plain olive oil or pomace, not virgin. I never really pay attention to how much of the infused oil I use, guess it depends on how dark it is to start with. I'd start with 5%-10%, see if you like that color. 
Making soap and getting it the way you want is a lot of trial and error. Make small batches to start with, 1 lbs is plenty. That way if something messes up, you didn't waste too much of your supplies.

You can infuse your oils in a sunny window, thats how I like to do it. I don't see a issue with using colorants in your first soap but I would stay away from juice/puree and any other additives like sugar, honey and milks. All those can cause your soap to overheat.

Make sure the herbs you order will keep their color in soap, many will turn brown.


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 16, 2015)

Susie and TEG - I've no intention of messing up my first batch with anything that might make it fail, so no worries there! I'm eager to make pretty things, but not at the risk of discouraging myself unnecessarily by over complicating something I don't even have basic skills in yet. I'm approaching this the way I did my bread baking all those years ago - got my basic bread under my belt well enough that I felt comfy, then I started with  fancy stuff.  I'm simply wanting to get these colorants started so the colors are rich and deep by the time I've made enough batches to feel comfy stepping up a notch.

Obsidian - awesome - that's what I'll do with the oils. I was hoping the whole preservative issue would be moot, and am happy to hear that's the case. I'm afraid of sugars after seeing some of the epic fail soap pics , so I think it will be a while before I go near them  Thanks for the help!


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## Seawolfe (Jul 16, 2015)

I find that using infused oils for colors takes more planning than batches that use oxides or micas.

For instance on this batch, when I mixed up the lye and oils I held back 8 ounces of olive oil (on a 2.5 lb batch). Then I split the batter in half by weight, and then one half in half again. To the half batch I added 4 ounces of plain OO (for the uncolored part that would end up white), to one quarter I added 2 ounces of OO infused with spirulina and nettle for the green, and to the other quarter I added 1 ounce of OO infused with alkanet and 1 ounce plain OO for the purple.  That way no section was heavier or lighter in lye than the others.







There are lots of natural color choices - but many turn brown in the lye reaction (green tea, hibiscus), some are persnickity (indigo), and its all a learning curve, but a fun one  I keep a batch of jars of OO infusing on a shelf so they are always ready, to those I add a drop or two of ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin, an antioxidant) because they may be sitting about for a while.


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## not_ally (Jul 16, 2015)

I mostly use commercial colorants - micas, oxides, pigments, liquids, etc - b/c they are easier to just grab, but do have a few infused oils (annato, paprika, safflower) that I use on occasion.  I actually think that they are less likely to speed trace than the store-bought ones, but I have a harder time adding them in the right amounts to avoid upsetting the oil mix (unless I am doing the whole batch in the same color so use the infused oils for the whole thing).  

The soaps of people who are good with them - I have several of Seawolfe's - are absolutely beautiful.  Sea, you should post some more pics so Gigi gets a sense of how pretty they are.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 16, 2015)

Purees and juices are tricky - they can burn and smell yucky. Also, most of them are going to turn brown in your soap. 

While I do think you should save your infusions and purees for when you are more experienced, there are some easy natural colorants you can try.

From the grocery store:
Beta carotene capsules. 1 capsule in 20 oz of soap gives a lemony yellow color. More will start to move towards orange. I love beta carotene - it's well behaved and it lasts. But be aware - the soap won't dissolve the capsule! Snip and squeeze!

Cocoa - Try it at 1 tsp per pound of oils (PPO). This one tends to clump, so be prepared to do extra mixing.

Parsley is great too. It will fade with time, but it stays green for several months.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 16, 2015)

not_ally said:


> Sea, you should post some more pics so Gigi gets a sense of how pretty they are.



Oh you flatterer you turn my head! You can play with my knives next time that youre over 

This one was easy - activated charcoal you can just blend in well straight from powder, the red was Morrocan red clay and madder root infused in OO





This one the orange is red palm oil, so again with the <keep XX oil out of the original batter, split in half and then add X oil to part and X to the other>, the black was charcoal again.





This one the blue is indigo and I wanted a bright blue but it went denim (because indigo behaves like a dramaqueen middle schooler), and spirulina in the middle bit:


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## not_ally (Jul 16, 2015)

Sea's soaps are also lovely to use, you guys.  Unlike my eo soaps the fragrance sticks like glue (don't know how you do that, Sea), the lather is great, and they are hard as rocks.  I have that yellow one and don't want to use it and have it melt away.  Now that you have extended the knife invitation I might do it and get another one when I am there


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 16, 2015)

It seems like some of this stuff is murder on oils.

High heat for hours will cause some damage for sure. Water, as from fresh herbs. Leaving it sitting in the sun (even diffuse daylight lowers the shelf life of oil compared to darkness, let alone full sunlight). Putting chlorophyll into it (It's a photosensitizer, so light and chlorophyll are a bad combination).

I'm interested in this subject because I've been working on how best to design a natural soap line. With my previous stuff, I was always concerned about making a stable product. It's hard to change the mindset. Finding natural coloring materials and techniques that don't morph or incur oxidation seems to narrow the options a fair amount.

Speaking of morphing, I love how madder root comes out, but it morphs pretty fast. Annatto morphs. I'm looking forward to trying beta carotene.

I have half a mind to cherry-pick a few of the most reliable natural colorants and use some oxides in addition.


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## not_ally (Jul 16, 2015)

Sea, how old are those soaps?  The colors in the ones you gave me don't seem to have morphed at all yet, just wondering what the time frame on those is.

TOMH, I think the idea of mixing  natural colorants and oxides/micas is a good one w/r/t "anchoring".  Just wonder if the buyers that want natural everything (and don't really understand the idea of nature identicals) will be on board.  What have you been thinking about that w/r/t your natural line?


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## Seawolfe (Jul 16, 2015)

I like using oxides as well, and they mix well with natural colorants IMHO.

Not_Ally - none of my soaps have really faded. The green in the challenge soap is spirulina and nettle - I have heard that spirulna can fade to brown, but Im hopping the nettle will keep it on the green side, but we shall see.

I use dried botanicals just so I dont have to worry about moisture, and I always add ROE to my infusing jars, but what ends up happening is that all the solids settle out on the bottom so that theres very little organic bits IN the soap. The only "wet" organic infusion I've done was carrots, and that was quickly done in the microwave and filtered out.


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## galaxyMLP (Jul 16, 2015)

TOMH, I don't think beta carotene (even the concentrated stuff) will give you a reliable, lasting color. It oxidizes very quickly in light. I did my undergrad research with it and you had to keep everything foil wrapped to prevent oxidation. I would think 1) the lye would destroy it or 2) it would not last long unless it is kept in the dark and dry.


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## not_ally (Jul 16, 2015)

K, tried PM'ing you but your mailbox is full ....

Sea, that is why I was wondering how old those soaps were.  I seemed to remember that they were pretty well cured, and I know I have seen pics of soaps w/natural colorants that faded much more than yours did.  Curious if you did something different to keep them that way.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 16, 2015)

Yeah they are 4 months old or more, kept in my fancy shoe box. But my palette is pretty limited - the ones you saw are just red palm oil, charcoal, alkanet, annatto, red clay and madder root, hemp oil and french green clay, and indigo. Those all hold really well. If this new spirulina & nettle green sticks Ill use it more too.


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## TeresaT (Jul 16, 2015)

I used parsley once and it made a pretty green.  I made up my lye solution then put in a tbsp and left it overnight.  The next day I strained the lye through a sieve and put the parsley in some cheese cloth and squeezed out the rest of the lye solution.  I didn't worry about lost lye because I figured it would be negligible and just up the SF a bit.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 17, 2015)

not_ally said:


> TOMH, I think the idea of mixing  natural colorants and oxides/micas is a good one w/r/t "anchoring".  Just wonder if the buyers that want natural everything (and don't really understand the idea of nature identicals) will be on board.  What have you been thinking about that w/r/t your natural line?



I was thinking of being able to say all-veggie and all-natural.  Oxides don't seem so bad for the ingredient list, but you lose the all-natural if you're honest about it. So yeah, that could be a significant decision.

The EO soap line I initially looked at as a model (stuff a friend likes) was uncolored, so evidently they avoided a lot of hassle. I thought it would be cool to do some natural colorants.

While I didn't think it would be a cakewalk, it is a bit of a hassle. Besides issues of stability, the fact that many of them can't or shouldn't ideally be added to soap batter makes it more complicated to color part of a batch.

I think I'll content myself with selecting a limited number of natural colorants to create some variations in how the soap looks. I'm not really trying for a super colorful line, so I'll probably skip the oxides. But I still could lose the all-natural if I decide to use EDTA in addition to ROE.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 17, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> TOMH, I don't think beta carotene (even the concentrated stuff) will give you a reliable, lasting color. It oxidizes very quickly in light. I did my undergrad research with it and you had to keep everything foil wrapped to prevent oxidation. I would think 1) the lye would destroy it or 2) it would not last long unless it is kept in the dark and dry.



That sounds perfectly plausible, but dixiedragon caught my attention by saying it behaves well and lasts using the supplement capsules. Also Seawolfe's soaps features a rich yellow from red palm, and that would be from beta carotene. How to reconcile these realities?


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 17, 2015)

Seawolfe said:


> I find that using infused oils for colors takes more planning than batches that use oxides or micas.
> 
> For instance on this batch, when I mixed up the lye and oils I held back 8 ounces of olive oil (on a 2.5 lb batch). Then I split the batter in half by weight, and then one half in half again. To the half batch I added 4 ounces of plain OO (for the uncolored part that would end up white), to one quarter I added 2 ounces of OO infused with spirulina and nettle for the green, and to the other quarter I added 1 ounce of OO infused with alkanet and 1 ounce plain OO for the purple.  That way no section was heavier or lighter in lye than the others.
> 
> ...



Seawolfe - what pretty soap! I'll keep that rosemary oleoresin in mind for the future


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 17, 2015)

dixiedragon said:


> Purees and juices are tricky - they can burn and smell yucky. Also, most of them are going to turn brown in your soap.
> 
> While I do think you should save your infusions and purees for when you are more experienced, there are some easy natural colorants you can try.
> 
> ...



Dixiedragon - I will look for the beta carotene capsules, thank you! It will be a while before I work with these colorants, but it's nice to know the options


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## karenbeth (Jul 17, 2015)

I love using different coloured clays in soap. Some of the pinks are great


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 17, 2015)

So much good info here! You guys rock


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## dixiedragon (Jul 20, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> TOMH, I don't think beta carotene (even the concentrated stuff) will give you a reliable, lasting color. It oxidizes very quickly in light. I did my undergrad research with it and you had to keep everything foil wrapped to prevent oxidation. I would think 1) the lye would destroy it or 2) it would not last long unless it is kept in the dark and dry.


 
I have been using it for years. So from my experience, it does. I will include some pics when I get home.


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## galaxyMLP (Jul 20, 2015)

Dixie, experience trumps theory. If it works, it works! Glad it does too. Very pretty color that stuff is.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 20, 2015)

The orange I made with carrot-infused oils and strained carrot puree never faded either. I saw a lovely orange bar and the creator said they used carrot juice and a pinch of paprika.


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## snappyllama (Jul 20, 2015)

Pumpkin puree makes a nice light orange too.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 20, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> Dixie, experience trumps theory. If it works, it works! Glad it does too. Very pretty color that stuff is.



Mysterious, huh? I'll get some and maybe we'll see if these seeming contradictions can reconcile.


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## doriettefarm (Jul 20, 2015)

I'll add to the mystery.  I've never had annatto morph on me but indigo continues to give me fits.  Made an orange-patch soap months ago that used annatto infused OO and that batch is still flaming cheeto orange!


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## not_ally (Jul 20, 2015)

At least it was orange, doriette, so the color worked!


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## doriettefarm (Jul 20, 2015)

It worked so well I thought the lather might be orange and feared my shower would look like a pumpkin massacre


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## green soap (Jul 20, 2015)

The only faders I observed were madder root and paprika at low concentrations, the amount you would use for a peach color.  Paprika used at higher concentration gives me a brick color that does not fade, but it causes the soap to accelerates.

Annatto, alkanet, and indigo have given me great results and not any noticeable fading, even after several months.

I have had really nice results with rose clay too.  For brown I use cocoa powder, and some charcoal for black or gray.  

All minus the clays and the indigo were used as infusions in olive, almond, and/or avocado oils.  

Another experience with fading, or morphing rather, happens when I use goat milk as the liquid.  Indigo looks green rather than blue, and alkanet takes more of a grey hue rather than purple.


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 21, 2015)

You guys are awesome, so much info in one place. Thanks for sharing it, I'm taking notes like crazy LOL


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## Susie (Jul 21, 2015)

I use paprika and annato infused into olive oil for yellow to orange coloring, depending on amount used.  Annato gives more of a "true" orange, where paprika gives more of a "rusty" sort of shading.  

Beta carotene works wonderfully and is long lasting.  I will probably use that for my orange as it is just easier to use.  I am thinking of squeezing a capsule into a bottle of OO, so I can use only as much or as little as I like on that one also.  

I like using cold coffee in place of water to give a lovely "latte" shade.  That combined with a cocoa line is pretty nice, and my hubby thinks it looks like a "guy" soap.


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 24, 2015)

Susie said:


> I use paprika and annato infused into olive oil for yellow to orange coloring, depending on amount used.  Annato gives more of a "true" orange, where paprika gives more of a "rusty" sort of shading.
> 
> Beta carotene works wonderfully and is long lasting.  I will probably use that for my orange as it is just easier to use.  I am thinking of squeezing a capsule into a bottle of OO, so I can use only as much or as little as I like on that one also.
> 
> I like using cold coffee in place of water to give a lovely "latte" shade.  That combined with a cocoa line is pretty nice, and my hubby thinks it looks like a "guy" soap.



Love these suggestions!


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 24, 2015)

I have my doubts about indigo as a soap colorant. There is a chemistry to using it for things like denim, but it's impossible to do that chemistry with soap. As purchased, it is insoluble in both water and oil. If you do want to try it, dispersing it in the lye is the way to go. But in my experience you will have indigo dots unless maybe you filter your lye. Adding processing steps like that to the caustic is not the safest or most convenient thing.


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## nsmar4211 (Jul 25, 2015)

Does using coffee as a liquid affect any scenting?


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## not_ally (Jul 25, 2015)

I've only tried it a few times, but found that while the color stuck, the fragrance did not (assume the lye killed it?)  That lye is a terrible murdering thing.


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## green soap (Jul 26, 2015)

I have had pretty good results using indigo for blues and greens.  All blue and greens in these pictures are from indigo.  Chemical reaction somewhat similar to what happens when dying jeans - lye reduces it - indigo molecules appear blue upon contact with oxygen - dying fabric still on my bucket list.

All colors here are from annatto, alkanet, indigo, calendula, rose clay, charcoal, coffee, and a little sea kelp at time.


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## green soap (Jul 26, 2015)

These two have more of the indigo, in different concentrations -


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## not_ally (Jul 26, 2015)

Green soap, you are a master.  Those are beautifully colored.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 26, 2015)

I adore these blue shades!! Are you adding the indigo to the water before the lye?


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 27, 2015)

These suggestions are terrific. They inspired me to wait a couple days to make my second batch and spend the time making some natural colorants instead.

So last night I made a couple using what I had on hand-

I had some Mexican saffron from the Fiesta market here, which is actually safflower not saffron. I ground it up super fine, sifted it, and ground it again, which yielded me a modest amount of safflower powder. I also heat steeped some of the safflower in oil instead of grinding and the oil.is a beautiful deep red orange.

I tried infusing seaweed, but all I had was noir (sushi wrapping), and that was a waste of time LOL. So I switched to parsley and it gave me a significantly deeper green oil, which I am pretty sure will barely tint, so I'll be grinding some parsley tonight after work as another opt.

I ground coffee micro fine also, as well as taking cold coffee and simmering it down to a rich concentrate that should yield a rich deep brown. 

Besides the parsley, I'm also going to use the last of my turmeric root to make another concentrate, and I'm gonna try carrots too.

I think I have some mustard powder and I wanna try that too. Some of these I want to try straight (mixed in a couple tbs of oil then added to batter), some I'm still working out how I would mix them in LOL.

Keep inspiring me folks


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## green soap (Jul 28, 2015)

Seawolfe yes, I dissolve a small amount of indigo in the lye water (or other liquids).  I even do it in goat's milk but then I get a green rather than blue jean blue.

Since some of the crystals are larger and harder to dissolve, sometimes I powder them further using a tiny mortar and pestle.  This avoids clumps, or indigo 'dots'.  The important thing with the indigo I have is to dissolve it BEFORE adding the lye.  

Gigisiguenza, it all sounds good, just be careful with mustard since it can be irritating to some.  For a similar color, Annatto will give you a bright yellow, depending on how much you use it can be a lovely yellow.  Same with calendula infusions.  Good luck to you and have fun!


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 28, 2015)

GS thanks for the note on mustard, and when I can afford to order some supplies online I will be trying the annatto and several others


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## not_ally (Jul 28, 2015)

If you live in an/near an area w/a Hispanic population you can often find small packets of annato seeds (all you'll need) on the spice rack/shelf for about a buck.  It does produce a beautiful color but (can't remember if a/o noted this earlier), it is *really* staining if you get it on your clothes while infusing/using it.  Turmeric - have never used the root, only the powder - is even worse.


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 28, 2015)

not_ally said:


> If you live in an/near an area w/a Hispanic population you can often find small packets of annato seeds (all you'll need) on the spice rack/shelf for about a buck.  It does produce a beautiful color but (can't remember if a/o noted this earlier), it is *really* staining if you get it on your clothes while infusing/using it.  Turmeric - have never used the root, only the powder - is even worse.



Ally - thanks I will look for them


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## not_ally (Jul 28, 2015)

Also, if you check out those spice racks you're going to get excited about hibiscus petals!  Unfortunately they don't work ....


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## nsmar4211 (Jul 28, 2015)

Nope, hibiscus tea doesn't work either unless you are after brown bleck . Tastes good though LOL


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## gigisiguenza (Jul 29, 2015)

Well okay then, I will resist the call of the hibiscus flowers Lmao


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