# Preservatives?



## pnewelljr (Mar 11, 2014)

I am working to put together my first liquid bodywash. My main goal is to make it in small fresh batches and not include any preservatives or antioxidants. I have read a couple places that liquid soap probably doesnt need preservatives because of the ph level.

This is confusing to me, because I read that anything with water needs preservatives. But lets say it doesnt, how far does that extend? I assume I can add more oils and essential oils without worry and still no preservatives, but what about other ingredients?

For example, the following sample recipe, would the ph rule still apply after all these things are mixed? Could I still get away without a preservative?

saponified oils of organic coconut
organic safflower oil
organic olive oil
organic aloe vera leaf powder (or juice?)
organic essential oils
organic vegetable glycerin
organic guar gum

Would this be ok?


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## lsg (Mar 11, 2014)

I think the aloe juice would need a preservative.  I use Germall Plus Liquid in many of my products.


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## pnewelljr (Mar 11, 2014)

That's whats so confusing to me? If the liquid soap already has water in it, why does the water in the aloe juice cause a problem?

If I used powder instead of juice, wouldn't it effectively just mix with the water in the liquid soap and create the same problem?


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## lsg (Mar 11, 2014)

I am one of those who think that liquid soap needs a preservative and you are adding a plant substance to the soap making it doubly susceptible to mold and bacteria.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 11, 2014)

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=42659


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## PinkCupcake (Mar 11, 2014)

Mold & bacteria need water to grow. Personally, I would use a preservative in any product that contains water. I know that people don't like the word "preservative", but they don't like mold, either.


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## new12soap (Mar 11, 2014)

Yes, it is because you are adding botanicals which make yummy microbe food. Many people think "natural = good", but mold, fungus, and bacteria are all natural and those are bad (in our products anyway).

Please use a preservative. I second Liquid Germall Plus, it is not pH sensitive and isn't inactivated by other ingredients, but there are a lot of choices out there.


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## pnewelljr (Mar 11, 2014)

Ok, I did some research. Although I'm not happy about it, the only preservatives I"ve found that I'm remotely comfortable with are the following three:

*Water Soluble*
Leucidal Liquid SF
Leucidal Liquid PT

*Oil Soluble*
PhytoCide Elderberry OS

My question now is, if I decide to use these, which one would I use? My product would have both oil and water?


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## new12soap (Mar 11, 2014)

Leucidal SF is used at pH between 3-8 and is most effective below 6.

Same with Leucidal PT

And same w PhytoCide when using in products that contain water.

So it doesn't look like any of those would be appropriate.


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## pnewelljr (Mar 11, 2014)

new12soap said:


> Leucidal SF is used at pH between 3-8 and is most effective below 6.
> 
> Same with Leucidal PT
> 
> ...



Are there no natural safe preservatives that would work then?


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## pnewelljr (Mar 11, 2014)

And how can a products like these have no preservatives?

http://www.hanaorganicskincare.com/products/gentle-cleanser

http://www.hanaorganicskincare.com/collections/face/products/gentle-toner

Are they just lying?


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## lsg (Mar 12, 2014)

My guess is that the rose hydrosol and Castile soap already contained preservatives.  The company might not have added any extra preservatives, but I think those two ingredients probably contained preservatives.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 12, 2014)

Even if OTHERS are not using preservatives in their products or are lying about their use of preservatives, the fact remains that what THEY do or don't  do should not make a difference. What is the right level of risk for YOU based on the objective facts and informed recommendations? 

If you're making this product for yourself, then don't use a preservative if you are resistant to the idea. If you are making this for the public or even for family and friends, however, it's wise to be much more conservative, because you cannot control how these people will use your product. I think Lindy's thread -- the one I gave a link to earlier -- is instructive and well worth heeding.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 12, 2014)

That thread was a good read, I remember it first time round.

I am also of the mind that a little bit of an "unnatural" preservative is better than asking some one if they want to smear dangerous bacteria all over their face.  I have my bottle ready for when I make some lotion.


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## pnewelljr (Mar 12, 2014)

I'll be using it for myself, at least initially. If I were to not use any preservatives, what PH should I be shooting for to limit the risk of bacterial growth?


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## pnewelljr (Mar 12, 2014)

Also, any opinions on Willow Bark Extract?

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/willow-bark-extract.html


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 12, 2014)

Even the text on the site seems to suggest that it works for removing nasties in use, but not the best as a preservative.


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## seven (Mar 12, 2014)

lsg said:


> I think the aloe juice would need a preservative.  I use Germall Plus Liquid in many of my products.



i 2nd this. am using this one as well, and so far i've no complaints.


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## new12soap (Mar 13, 2014)

pnewelljr said:


> Are there no natural safe preservatives that would work then?


 
Well, it depends on your definition of natural and safe. There are a few ecocert preservatives (like the ones you mentioned), but they are designed for use in cosmetics such as lotions. As for how effective they are, I really can't say as I haven't used them. I know there have been a lot of problems with some of the more "natural" preservatives because they simply do not hold up with any reliability.

I really think that "preservatives" is such a broad category, and they have all gotten a really bad rap lately. Much of it is IMO unfair and undeserved, there are fear-mongers and half-truths being manipulated all over the internet.

I'm not saying you shouldn't seek out a preservative that meets your preferences and your needs, but I would ask what IS it that you are looking for? What exactly do YOU consider natural or safe? What is your objection to traditional preservatives such as Liquid Germall Plus? You may want to do some more research into the safety (or legitimate concerns) of such products, it may help allay some of whatever concerns you have.

As for another eco-cert preservative, I'm sorry I don't have any better suggestions for you. I don't use them as I find that LGP meets my needs very well. Look for one that works in the higher pH environment of soap. You cannot balance your soap to any pH that will preclude contamination and still be safe for you to use.

HTH


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 14, 2014)

To put it in to a context, I was reading an article about storing food and so on for emergencies (don't ask!) and it said to put some plain bleach in to stored drinking water.  A very small amount, mind you.  Now of course drinking bleach is not something that people would think of doing, but a little bit so diluted is not an issue and actually keeps the water safe to drink.  

A small amount of a reputable preservative will do very little harm to the majority of people.  People don't think this, though, as it's not natural and so on and so on.


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## Lindy (Mar 16, 2014)

Having just gone through a disaster with cream soap I am now going to recommend preservatives in liquid soap.  As has already been stated the aloe will cause a problem all by itself without a good preservative.  If you're looking for natural preservatives you are better looking at are ECOcert preservatives like Geoguard.


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## lsg (Mar 16, 2014)

I just want to add this, after reading today's swiftcraftymonkey blog.  Just because something is called natural doesn't mean it is good for your skin and just because something is referred to as a chemical, doesn't necessarily make it bad.  

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/


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## ilovesoap2 (Mar 16, 2014)

^^^^
I really should live on her blog. So interesting! So much to learn.


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## lady-of-4 (Mar 19, 2014)

LS generally doesn't need a preservative, because of it's alkaline enviroment not being conducive to microbial growth.  BUT if you still choose to use one, please make sure that it will actually work in an alkaline environment.  Most preservatives that i find soapers use for LS are not effective in a pH over 9.  The following is a link to a list of 27 different preservatives and there actual ph range of effectiveness.

http://makingskincare.com/preservatives/


And if your testing your pH and it falls below 9, something is off, especially if you're using strips.  Soap is generally mid range alkaline, and is skin safe between 9 and 10.  Below 9, and your soap will fall out of solution, ie, cloud and begin to break down/separate.  Above 10, and it's not skin safe.  Cellular breakdown can occur above 10, and you won't even notice it.  I know of one person who gets her soap at 8.5 with no issues, and she uses a meter to test.  So I can't question too much there.  But she's the only one I know of in other groups I'm in.  But ph testing accuracy is a whole nother ball park, and not what you're asking for.

Now as for the preservatives in that list, some touch on the edge of working in soap, pH wise.  They can go up to 9.  My thought is, though that being that close to soap's minimum pH range, it could be debatable that they'd be effective, if you were to get your soap at 9..or even a smidge below.  Nothing says that effectiveness is equal across the board.  A preservative with a range of 5-9 might be less effective at it's low and high end ie, 5 and 9..but is best in between.  Again, that's me with a theory though.  Some food for thought if you will.
http://makingskincare.com/preservatives/


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## Lindy (Mar 19, 2014)

Actually I need to respectfully disagree.  I used to believe that with regards to both LS & Cream Soap until my cream soap got black mold.  Now I know better.


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## lady-of-4 (Mar 19, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Actually I need to respectfully disagree.  I used to believe that with regards to both LS & Cream Soap until my cream soap got black mold.  Now I know better.




I remember your incident, Lindy and that really sucks it happened.  But, considering you'd never had an issue prior to that, I think that was 1 isolated incident, that could happen, even to those who use a preservative.  I think we all can agree that even a great preservative can fail.  It happens.   Does it mean it's a bad preservative overall, because of 1 incident?  Not really.  Now if it were a repeat issue, then I'd be looking into a new preservative, or in your case, begin preserving.  But 1 isolated incident isn't something to disswade me easily.  I did have a case where, more often than not, my home made conditioner would begin to go bad.  Once or twice I could get it passed a month with no rancidity.  Otherwise, mold, color change..whole 9 yards.  So I sucked it up and got a preservative.  As for my LS?  Nope. Won't bother  I'll let it take care of itself and not waste money.

In any case, as I stated, most commonly used preservatives are most certainly going to fail in LS because of the high pH.  Examples, taken from the link I posted are, but not limited to, Liquid Germall, all versions of Optiphen and Germaben, and Phenonip.  These are only effective in a pH under 8.  The ones that go up to 9 seem to need a partner.... well, I think I made my point.  Read the list.  27 different preservatives... and none of them will work in LS.  So it boils down to the home crafter to take this info and make informed decisions.


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## Lindy (Mar 20, 2014)

Hmm good point.


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## Mellifera (Apr 3, 2014)

I've checked several brands of liquid soap--Dr. B. among them, and true liquid soap (not detergent) on the market never seems to use a preservative. I have a few bottles around that are 2 yrs old of my own LS and no problems with them, either. So I think liquid soap is ok, with good manufacturing practice. Can't speak to cream soap, since I've never made it.


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## InNae (Apr 3, 2014)

The definition of natural is a sticky subject. The FDA has not issued any information on what "Natural" is. (Sorry I work in the food industry and this comes up all the time) With that being said there are some things that are being/have been developed. Here is a link to an article in Chemical and Engineering News (Magazine for the American Chemical Society) which talks about some "Natural" preservatives and there are some links to some other "Natural" things that can be used in food so I would think that they would be safe for use in soap. I couldn't find anything about the pH range for the antimicrobial so that would be a concern, and I'm not sure where it could be purchased. I'm pretty sure there aren't to many of us that want to purchase 50 pounds of this stuff to try it out. 

http://cen.acs.org/articles/92/i6/Extending-Shelf-Life-Natural-Preservatives.html

InNae


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## dixiedragon (Apr 3, 2014)

When people say "natural preservative" I immediately think of salt. Salted dried fish, jerky (which is basically salted dried meat), etc. I am curious if salt might work as a presevative in a body wash or liquid soap. Any info on this?


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## Lindy (Apr 4, 2014)

Soap by its very nature is a salt hence Sodium.  Of course liquid soap is Potassium but it really should be self-preserving.  I've checked the rest of my cream soap that does not have preservatives and there is no mold.  I also checked the one I had a problem with after having cleaned the mold off it (I kept it to see what it would do) and there is no reoccurrence.  So quite frankly I am really, really torn on this.


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## FGOriold (Apr 4, 2014)

With liquid and cream soap, it is not just a question of to preserve or not to preserve, it is also which preservative to use.  Most all of the ones people used or recommend to use (optiphen in all variations, liquid germall, etc.) are effective on formulations with a ph <= 8 which these soap products are not and cannot be.  There is only one preservative (unless you go with a system of preservatives and supportive agents to boost the preservative's power) that is available in the US for high Ph products - Suttocide A.  So if you are gong to use a preservative, please research them and don't waste your money on one that will not be effective in your liquid or cream soap.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 4, 2014)

Salt alters the thickness and lather of liquid soap products. Might not be the best choice as a preservative.


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## halogen171 (Apr 5, 2014)

Your so right ... When I first started making liquid soap I looked everywhere for a preservative that would work in a high pH my liquid soaps are exactly 8.8 and everything is ineffective at a pH that high I feel it's good hygiene, proper sanitation, and prevention of exposure can prevent bacteria and mold growth but sometimes even with preservatives products go bad with time.....


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