# What type of soybean oil to use?



## narnia (Jan 6, 2016)

Soaper's choice has two types of SBO.  Liquid and shortening.  I had no idea that it came in a shortening form.

What do you all use mostly?  And what would be the resulting difference?


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## shunt2011 (Jan 6, 2016)

I do t use soybean. It's another oil prone to DOS and also a GMO. You might be okay if you use it in small amounts and add some ROE to the oils if you decide to purchase that.


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## narnia (Jan 6, 2016)

Hmmm...maybe I won't use it at all then.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jan 6, 2016)

If you use soybean oil you should just get it from the supermarket where they have the cooking oils. Probably a bottle of Crisco, but check labels to make sure of what oil you're getting.

However, there are good reasons it's not a traditional soaping oil. You can't even use much, and personally I don't think you need to use any.


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## narnia (Jan 6, 2016)

The only reason I was considering using it, was that Genny had used it in her shampoo / body bar.


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## Obsidian (Jan 6, 2016)

You can replace the soybean oil in genny's shampoo with just about any other liquid oil. I use either more avocado or 5% coconut, 5% neem.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 6, 2016)

I too used Avocado when I made it. It's a great gentle body bar. I can't use it as a shampoo bar. My hair doesn't like them one bit.


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## narnia (Jan 10, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> I too used Avocado when I made it. It's a great gentle body bar. I can't use it as a shampoo bar. My hair doesn't like them one bit.



What does it do to your hair??


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## cmzaha (Jan 10, 2016)

narnia said:


> What does it do to your hair??


Word of advice, hair does not like soap. The ph is to high and will eventually damage your hair. Also to much superfat will eventually gum up your hair. In my years of doing hair for a living I would get a lot of messes to clean off the hair. The olive oil fad was one of the worst to clean out of hair and mayonnaise was a close second. There is a reason surfactants and emulsifiers are used in shampoos and conditioners. Do some research and learn to make a nice surf based solid shampoo bar. Susan at Swiftycraftymonkey.blogspot.com has a lot of good info about shampoo bars and recipes


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## shunt2011 (Jan 11, 2016)

narnia said:


> What does it do to your hair??


 
It dries it out and makes it feel like straw.  I also have color treated hair and it fades the color too quickly.   Even with ACV rinse.   Hair doesn't like high PH.  My mother, like Carolyn was a hairdresser for many many years.


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## hmlove1218 (Jan 11, 2016)

I would like to add that each person is dofferent, though, so if you want to try a shampoo bar, go for it. I honestly feel like my hair has never been healthier since I started using a shampoo bar. That may change one day, but it's been almost 2 years now I believe. And my hair absolutely abhors AVC rinses.


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## narnia (Jan 12, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> It dries it out and makes it feel like straw.  I also have color treated hair and it fades the color too quickly.   Even with ACV rinse.   Hair doesn't like high PH.  My mother, like Carolyn was a hairdresser for many many years.



Is your hair color treated to darken or lighten?  If lightened, I can't see it fading....



hmlove1218 said:


> I would like to add that each person is dofferent, though, so if you want to try a shampoo bar, go for it. I honestly feel like my hair has never been healthier since I started using a shampoo bar. That may change one day, but it's been almost 2 years now I believe. And my hair absolutely abhors AVC rinses.



I agree with you.  My hair has never been healthier since I started using my goat milk shampoo/body bars for the past few months.  

I can't stand the smell of vinegar, so I just use my regular all-natural conditioner afterwards, and I have gotten many compliments on my hair lately.  My hair used to look dry, dull, and frizzy before, so that I had to iron my hair to make it look smooth.  Not anymore!  My hair lies smoothly, has body, shine, and bounce!  So, I guess I am not understanding how it could damage hair.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 12, 2016)

narnia said:


> Is your hair color treated to darken or lighten? If lightened, I can't see it fading....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
It faded both.  I was dark brown, auburn and very light brown with blond/red highlights.   Didn't matter which.


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## traderbren (Jan 12, 2016)

I used a shampoo bar faithfully for about a year and a half. My hair was full of body, my scalp was healthy (I have psoriasis and some shampoos irritate it), and I had waves in my normally limp, straight hair. I use a conditioner bar as well.

Then it all went to heck in a handbasket, and my hair felt like straw, it started breaking, and my scalp always felt gross. I had to cut off quite a bit of my hair, and switch to a commercial shampoo (without SLS since that seems to be a trigger). I would love to use a shampoo bar again, but I can't risk it. 

One day I plan to make a syndet bar, but it will take me a bit to get all the ingredients.

Shampoo bars work for some people, but not everyone, and not forever.


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## narnia (Jan 12, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> Swiftycraftymonkey.blogspot.com has a lot of good info about shampoo bars and recipes



Dtratz!!  That site no longer exists!!  : (  I wouild LOVE to have read her info!!


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## traderbren (Jan 12, 2016)

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/p/hair-care.html?m=1


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## penelopejane (Jan 13, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> It faded both.  I was dark brown, auburn and very light brown with blond/red highlights.   Didn't matter which.




Yes I agree. Dark or light coloured hair fades. My hair is now blond with darker highlights and it starts to fade out to pale whitish blond after about 2 weeks and just gets lighter.  I use the purple shampoo and it still fades. The purple shampoo only stops it from going brassy.


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## Muskette (Jan 13, 2016)

narnia said:


> Dtratz!!  That site no longer exists!!  : (  I wouild LOVE to have read her info!!



Narnia, when I read this I almost had a heart attack, lol...  That site is my bath & body bible!!


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## narnia (Jan 14, 2016)

Muskette said:


> Narnia, when I read this I almost had a heart attack, lol...  That site is my bath & body bible!!



Sooooo sorry!!  I had just clicked on the link that was given!  



penelopejane said:


> Yes I agree. Dark or light coloured hair fades. My hair is now blond with darker highlights and it starts to fade out to pale whitish blond after about 2 weeks and just gets lighter.  I use the purple shampoo and it still fades. The purple shampoo only stops it from going brassy.



What purple shampoo are you talking about?  Don't all shampoos make hair color fade, unless it's a shampoo specially formulated for color-treated hair?  

I use henna on my hair and I can't see that it is fading...my shampoo bar  makes my hair so glossy that I can't keep my hands out of my hair.  I wonder if the goat milk in it makes a diff?

And I wonder why it worked great for some for a year or two but then their hair went wonkers?  Is it attributable to the soap, or could it have been a change in health??

What about our ancestors that used lye soap for everything?  From bathing, shampooing, to laundry?  I grew up in Asia and was raised using bar soap to wash everything.  My hair never broke off or was dull....My hair was down to my knees....so I am just not getting it.

In terms of hair not liking alkaline...our bodies are not alkaline either, so it would be better for our skin not to use soap either, unless it could be a ph balanced soap, right?  Our hair is part of our body, so I would think that it would have and like the same ph.  How can we make ph balance soap?



traderbren said:


> http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/p/hair-care.html?m=1



Thanks so much for the correct link!  : )  You made my day and Muskette's!


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## shunt2011 (Jan 14, 2016)

Purple shampoo keeps the hair from getting brassy (blond & grey hair).   There are several companies that make it.  It's really purple.

The alkaline level raises the cuticle on our hair.  The high PH can damage the cuticle.   I've been coloring my hair since I was 15.  So, many many years of abuse.  It didnt' like shampoo bars.   

Some people swear by them.  If they work that's great bu tnot everyone can.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jan 14, 2016)

narnia said:


> In terms of hair not liking alkaline...our bodies are not alkaline either, so it would be better for our skin not to use soap either, unless it could be a ph balanced soap, right?  Our hair is part of our body, so I would think that it would have and like the same ph.  How can we make ph balance soap?



You can't make pH balanced soap, at least not if it's all soap. One of the major purposes of synthetic detergents is to make a less alkaline product, whether it be a cleansing bar or a shampoo.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 14, 2016)

While hair is a part of our body, toe nails and eyes are also parts of our body and yet both are very different and I can rub soap vigorously on one but not the other! Things react differently, including the scalp and the skin. 

That said, my hair doesn't mind a soap and a CA rinse, but it is short hair


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## narnia (Jan 14, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> The alkaline level raises the cuticle on our hair.  The high PH can damage the cuticle.   I've been coloring my hair since I was 15.  So, many many years of abuse.  It didnt' like shampoo bars.



That is very interesting!  Maybe I need to do some experiments on some cut hair samples.  We have a mini-microscope, so I an wash one strand with shampoo and other with my soap and see what happens to the cuticle....not that I don't believe you....it would just be interesting to see.  and I would like to see it, because my hair feels like the cuticles have been smoothened, rather than ruffled, since using the GM soap.  As I had wondered earlier, if the GM made the diff...  I should add to my experiment, washing the hair with a non-GM lye-based soap and one with GM and then an acid ph shampoo.  That should be very interesting!!



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> While hair is a part of our body, toe nails and eyes are also parts of our body and yet both are very different and I can rub soap vigorously on one but not the other! Things react differently, including the scalp and the skin.
> 
> That said, my hair doesn't mind a soap and a CA rinse, but it is short hair



What is a CA rinse?  

A male friend who had been using my GM soap...I noticed how shiny his hair was.  AND, my DH, his hair has become super shiny since using the GM soap, too.  Maybe the nutrients in the GM overcome the harshness of the alkaline soap???  Or do the  nutrients in GM even survive saponification?  Is using GM all just hype and label appeal....?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 14, 2016)

CA - Citric acid. Instead of vinegar I use a 5% CA solution. No smell [emoji4]


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## narnia (Jan 14, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> CA - Citric acid. Instead of vinegar I use a 5% CA solution. No smell [emoji4]



Ahhh!  That sounds great!!  I have some on hand!  I have avoided using ACV because the smell of vinegar makes me feel ill.

Could CA be added to the soap after trace in CP or after the cook in HP to lower the ph??  That could be the answer, if it were possible!!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 14, 2016)

Lye soap will always be alkaline. If you try to lower the pH, you will just make a state where the salts break down - your soap starts to break back in to fatty acids


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## Obsidian (Jan 14, 2016)

narnia said:


> In terms of hair not liking alkaline...our bodies are not alkaline either, so it would be better for our skin not to use soap either, unless it could be a ph balanced soap, right? Our hair is part of our body, so I would think that it would have and like the same ph. How can we make ph balance soap?



Our skin is alive and constantly turning over, it can correct any PH imbalance from using soap, usually within just a few minutes.

Hair is dead and the high PH causes damage that can't be corrected/healed. Using a acidic rinse will help a little but that damage is still there.

I used CP shampoo for almost two years. I loved it (genny's recipe) Tried to get my family to all switch and told anyone who asked, they they should ditch traditional shampoo and switch to CP bars.

Sometime early 2015 my hair started acting weird, the ends seemed crunchy and it tangled so bad I could hardly brush it. It kept getting worse until I had 1" long chunks breaking off every time I touched it. I switched to sulfate free shampoo and cond but it was too late, my hair had finally reached its breaking point (literally) and I had to cut it all off, down to 1".

Since then, I've used my CP a couple times on my hair but its just not worth it. I liked the idea of using my own CP shampoo but I had to give in and admit that its just not good for hair. I do still use a sulfate free shampoo, I don't want harsh cleansers on my scalp due to a skin condition.

If I had short hair, I would have kept using my bars but I want my long hair back. Moral of the story, hair can take a long time before showing extreme damage. If you hair starts getting dry or excessively tangling, stop with the shampoo bars and moisturise the heck out of it.


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## narnia (Jan 14, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Lye soap will always be alkaline. If you try to lower the pH, you will just make a state where the salts break down - your soap starts to break back in to fatty acids



I see...

What do you think of this article?

http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/idascorner/soap/are-your-soaps-and-shampoo-bars-ph-balanced


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## Dahila (Jan 14, 2016)

none of them , but GMO free soybean oil is awesome in body butter or hand cream,  I am not sure i would put it into face cream.  Avocado oil is good for everything ; soaps, body products, fresh salads, my most loved oil.  I use it a lot


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## DeeAnna (Jan 14, 2016)

Hair can't repair itself. Skin can. That's one difference. 

I can't speak for others, but my hair didn't Suddenly Go Wonkers. Instead, it was a gradual accumulation of slight damage that added up over months. 

Whether a person has straight, coarse hair or fine curly hair will also make a difference.


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## narnia (Jan 14, 2016)

I have straight, Asian hair.  I used harsh lye soap on my hair for 13 years with knee-length hair, so maybe it works with hair that has tight cuticles.

I also use a conditioner after every shampoo with the soap now, so that may make a difference, too.

But, no one has commented re whether the addition of GM makes a diff in a shampoo bar.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 15, 2016)

narnia said:


> I see...
> 
> What do you think of this article?
> 
> http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/idascorner/soap/are-your-soaps-and-shampoo-bars-ph-balanced




I skimmed it, but it seems interesting. I have never suggested that we should make soaps at a lower pH - I was responding to your question about using a CA solution after the cook to lower the pH. 

As the article states, it's not the pH in general that causes the issues. I say 'in general' because we are talking specifically about hair. Again, while the natural pH of a soap can be said to cause little damage to the skin (based on that article) that same pH is what causes it to sting when you get it in your eyes. So there are some effects of a higher pH, depending on what specifically you are talking about. 

Here the subject is hair, and the higher pH is not good for the hair of many people posting.


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## Susie (Jan 15, 2016)

narnia said:


> I see...
> 
> What do you think of this article?
> 
> http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/idascorner/soap/are-your-soaps-and-shampoo-bars-ph-balanced



The author is using pH strips to measure the alkalinity of the bars.  You can't use strips to measure the pH in bars.  You need to dilute that soap to 1:100 and then use a meter to accurately test that.  So, you can toss out that whole section of that article.  

Furthermore, the subject on this thread is HAIR.  Not SKIN.  The subject of that article is SKIN, not HAIR.  Hair and skin are very different in how you have to cleanse them due to how long each piece of dead tissue hangs around.  

I wash my hair once a week with syndet shampoo (very dry, curly hair).  I wash my skin daily (true soap).  Both benefit from what I am using to cleanse them.  I have tried using syndet for skin with very bad results, and I have tried using soap for hair with very bad results.  Your results will vary from mine.  Not everyone has the same reactions to those products.  No one is judging you or your choices for your skin and hair.


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## narnia (Jan 15, 2016)

What IS syndet shampoo??


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## topofmurrayhill (Jan 15, 2016)

narnia said:


> What IS syndet shampoo??



Synthetic detergent.


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## narnia (Jan 16, 2016)

I am still having trouble comprehending how a substance that is supposedly bad for the hair can show improvement in hair condition initially, for as long as 2 years.  

I would think that if something is bad for the hair, it would never show any kind of improvement, but start showing a gradual damage from the very start.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 16, 2016)

Everyone's hair is different. What may be healthy hair can change over time.  As stated. Everyone is different. I could not use it at all. Gave it a month and no go.  Diet, meds, health, age etc.   also damage can happen slowly for some.


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## Chefmom (Jan 16, 2016)

Going back to the original question about soybean oil and shortening...

Shortening, or vegetable shortening is the term used for the solid fat that was marketed to replace animal lard and tallow long ago in cooking and baking.  Basically liquid oils (usually soybean and cottonseed or rapeseed) are put through a hydrogenation process to make them solid at room temperature.  Crisco is the biggest name brand, but many generic and store brands are out there.  

I have personally used both liquid soybean oil and soybean based shortenings without any stand out issues, and even with 2 year old soaps I haven't blamed any DOS or rancidity on using soybean oils.  I really like the classic Sandy Maine recipe that has been around for years that uses 44% vegetable shortening, and I also make other formulas of my own using 20-40% shortening.  

However, with the new trans fats regulations all vegetable shortenings are going by way of Crisco and reformulating with the addition of Palm oil to keep the solid at room temperature standards.  So...this year I will be testing soybean oil and waxes to keep my soaps up to their standards.  I'll probably test the new palm based shortenings as well..I don't even know how they act in my baking recipes to be sure they have the same results!

Although a lot of soapers warn against DOS, I haven't seen it in soy based soaps.  There is a great test out there of single oil soaps that were made and tested as well as stored for a year and tested again.  It's a great read!

We all have our preferences, and you can only really know in your own testing in the end.  I love a good experiment!! 

http://alchemyandashes.blogspot.com/2014/03/single-oil-soap-experiment-phase-3-one.htmlhttp://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## topofmurrayhill (Jan 16, 2016)

Chefmom said:


> Although a lot of soapers warn against DOS, I haven't seen it in soy based soaps.  There is a great test out there of single oil soaps that were made and tested as well as stored for a year and tested again.  It's a great read!
> 
> We all have our preferences, and you can only really know in your own testing in the end.  I love a good experiment!!
> 
> http://alchemyandashes.blogspot.com/2014/03/single-oil-soap-experiment-phase-3-one.htmlhttp://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



Those single oil tests are very interesting, but there is potentially a big problem with them. High-linoleic oils often have an antioxidant added to them. That would dramatically affect the results. For instance, the sunflower oil clearly did not but the soybean oil may have had an additive. Those oils are just not THAT different. Actually one advantage to using a supermarket shortening in your recipe is that you end up adding antioxidants to every batch of soap.


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## narnia (Jan 16, 2016)

Chefmom said:


> Going back to the original question about soybean oil and shortening...
> 
> Although a lot of soapers warn against DOS, I haven't seen it in soy based soaps.  There is a great test out there of single oil soaps that were made and tested as well as stored for a year and tested again.  It's a great read!
> 
> http://alchemyandashes.blogspot.com/2014/03/single-oil-soap-experiment-phase-3-one.htmlhttp://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



Thank you soooooo much for the link!!!!  What a HUGE and valuable education!!!!


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