# Another Newbie Q about Liquid Dish Soap



## fillycate (Jul 16, 2020)

Ok, another one. I am also interested in making liquid dish soap.

First, I see mostly talk about making dish soap bars, as though that is preferred. Is that because they don't need some sort of container to sell in? What about if this is just for personal use, is there some reason to prefer a bar over liquid? Is it because KOH costs more?

Also, even in the most "natural" of liquid dish soaps out there for sale, it sure seems like the ingredients are kinda..  not as natural. Chemicals that aren't part of the home soap making process. I understand that %100 coconut oil soap does a great job of cleansing and even lathering all on its own, and just to make sure the superfat is %0. 

So, why are there not more liquid dishsoaps being sold based on coconut oil and lye? Is it because the ingredients are more expensive, or do the less "natural" chemicals just do a better job of cleaning?


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## DeeAnna (Jul 16, 2020)

The main motivations for making a solid soap or solid synthetic detergent for dishwashing is to minimize the packaging and maybe to add some convenience.

The problem with using real soap, whether solid or liquid, for dishwashing or in a clothes washer is that it's tough for real soap to function in a basin or washing machine full of water that contains hard water minerals. The soap instantly reacts with the minerals and becomes less effective, so it does a poor job of removing greasy dirt.

You will find even a 100% coconut soap won't lather or function well in these conditions.

The solution for using soap in the laundry is to add a water softener such as borax or washing soda to the washing machine. These additives do two things -- they inactivate the hard water minerals and also they keep the water pH high enough for the soap to remain functional and do its job of dissolving greasy and grime.

The solution for dishwashing is to use real soap only for spot washing, not for squirting into a basin full of water. What I mean by spot washing is whenyou put the soap on your sponge or dishcloth, and wash the pot or plate directly with the soapy sponge. Or add washing soda or borax to the sink full of water just like you'd use it in the washing machine.

This is also the reason why real soap doesn't make a good bubble bath product unless you also add something like washing soda or borax to soften the water in the tub. That's the point of Calgon's bathwater additive -- the one touted in the old "Calgon take me away!" commercials. It used to contain a water-softening mixture of zeolites and now it's basically perfumed washing soda.

I talk about this more in this article -- Soapy Stuff: Laundry soap mix Go down to the "Extra Credit" section at the bottom.

And here's a thread on this topic here on SMF -- Laundry soap and hard water questions


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## fillycate (Jul 16, 2020)

Thank you! Great information.

I saw one person suggest putting baking soda directly into the diluted liquid soap mix. Would this be an effective approach?


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## DeeAnna (Jul 16, 2020)

Have you read the article I linked to in my previous post? I talk about baking soda there. If that article doesn't help answer your question, ask again.


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## fillycate (Jul 16, 2020)

Oh, I think I may have found the answer in your article... That soda in particular degrades over time when in a wet setting.

(and that baking soda is weak sauce)

Ok, that was a *fantastic* article and I now have a link to it saved in my notes so I can refer back to it. I am now thinking I need a food processor. 

But... Again, dunno if this is a silly question, but wouldn't it be easier to make a liquid coconut-based lye soap, and add washing soda directly? No need for the food processor or setting out on trays.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 16, 2020)

fillycate said:


> ...wouldn't it be easier to make a liquid coconut-based lye soap, and add washing soda directly? No need for the food processor or setting out on trays.



There's no one right answer about what's easier or better or nicer or ... Whatever you like best is what's best for you.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 16, 2020)

fillycate said:


> But... Again, dunno if this is a silly question, but wouldn't it be easier to make a liquid coconut-based lye soap, and add washing soda directly?


A lot of us start out that way, me included. There are DIY laundry soap recipes, as you describe, all over the internet that are just that. And they do a fairly decent job.

The problem is, at least in my experience, that over time, clothes come out of the dryer dingy and stiff -- due to all the soap residue that hasn't been thoroughly rinsed out. This is true of the liquid laundry soap as well. Gotta add white vinegar to the rinse cycle and double up on cold-water rinse cycles until you're sure all the soap residue is out.

Once I figured that out, I now LUV, LUV, LUV folding my clothes straight out if the dryer. They smell fresh, are clean, bright, and soft to the touch.

As for dish soap, I use whatever I have in the foamer that day. One pump on a sponge, wash the plate or whatever and stick it in the dishwasher without bothering to rinse. Once the dishwasher is full I run it on the rinse cycle and use the heated dry feature. White vinegar comes into play once again in the dispenser for Jet Dry or something similar.

Silly question? Not at all. Keep 'em coming.
(Psst! I'm learning from Top Banana DeeAnna's responses as well!  TY @DeeAnna.


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## fillycate (Jul 16, 2020)

Huh!!

Okay, so quick question, I was reading DeeAnna's article about making this work for laundry, and she mentioned that vinegar at %5 can really lose its power in a rinse where it has so much water to dilute it. Is there a more powerful acid that could be used in place of vinegar to fully process all that the soap might leave behind?

On the dishwashing, so if I understand correctly, you put the dishes in without rinsing the home-made soap off that you happen to be using, run the dishwasher on a rinse cycle, and have vinegar in the rinse aid dispenser? (That is thinking outside the box!)


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 17, 2020)

fillycate said:


> On the dishwashing, so if I understand correctly, you put the dishes in without rinsing the home-made soap off that you happen to be using, run the dishwasher on a rinse cycle, and have vinegar in the rinse aid dispenser? (That is thinking outside the box!)


Yes.
NOTE: I'm not hung up on making LS with the consistency of the commercial stuff. I accept it for what it is. Getting the correct ratio for soap-to-water is key. Using the correct amount of soap is key.  For my Plain Jane Coconut Laundry LS I use the measurements in the cap of a re-purposed laundry detergent bottle.  So that tells me I done goooood. haha

I also add the recommended amount of OxiClean. I pre-treat stains with OxiClean. I sometimes use a water softener like Calgon or Borax but not always. I add 1/4 cup white vinegar to the rinse cycle and rinse in cold water.

FOAMERS: The dilution rate is 1 soap to 3 waters. So, once again, the soap is further diluted to make a thick creamy foam that not only cleans well but rinses off easily, which is key. Dishes come out of the dishwasher squeaky clean.


fillycate said:


> Is there a more powerful acid that could be used in place of vinegar to fully process all that the soap might leave behind?


First and foremost, to my mind at least, is not using more soap than you need to get clothes clean. That being said, a 20% solution of Citric Acid might do it. I've never tried it. That comes to mind because I was chatting with a soaping buddy the other day and she said she uses citric acid instead of detergent dishwasher powder in her dispenser. She may use something else as well.


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## fillycate (Jul 17, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> First and foremost, to my mind at least, is not using more soap than you need to get clothes clean. That being said, a 20% solution of Citric Acid might do it. I've never tried it. That comes to mind because I was chatting with a soaping buddy the other day and she said she uses citric acid instead of detergent dishwasher powder in her dispenser. She may use something else as well.


 
Thank you! That gives me ideas to experiment with.


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## Jor224 (Jul 18, 2020)

Hi, I was researching about this as I have experienced in making dishwashing liquid using synthetic ingredient like SLES, and recently discovered the soap making using plant oil and lye. From commercial perspective, synthetic ingredients are easy and fast to make. With right formula, I can dump all ingredients in huge mixer and produce hundreds - thousands liters of soap that lather well, has thick consistency, and translucent, everything in 30-40 minutes, without any need to use heat power. 

Meanwhile plant based oil and lye takes a long time, the shorter version is to include heat, which is another cost.



fillycate said:


> Ok, another one. I am also interested in making liquid dish soap.
> 
> First, I see mostly talk about making dish soap bars, as though that is preferred. Is that because they don't need some sort of container to sell in? What about if this is just for personal use, is there some reason to prefer a bar over liquid? Is it because KOH costs more?
> 
> ...


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 18, 2020)

Jor224 said:


> Hi, I was researching about this as I have experienced in making dishwashing liquid using synthetic ingredient like SLES, and recently discovered the soap making using plant oil and lye. From commercial perspective, synthetic ingredients are easy and fast to make. With right formula, I can dump all ingredients in huge mixer and produce hundreds - thousands liters of soap that lather well, has thick consistency, and translucent, everything in 30-40 minutes, without any need to use heat power.
> 
> Meanwhile plant based oil and lye takes a long time, the shorter version is to include heat, which is another cost.


Hiya Jordan and Welcome to SMF!
What you said is true, especially if you plan on making and selling dish soap.  However, speaking just for me, to buy all the ingredients to make a bottle of Syndet (Synthetic/Detergent) dish soap, it isn't cost effective, is it? For me, it would be less expensive to buy a bottle ready made, wouldn't it? 

Plus, I have a problem with synthetic ingredients. They irritate my skin. That's why I learned to make lye-based hard bars and liquid soap.


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## Jor224 (Jul 19, 2020)

This is why I want to explore soap making using plant oil, some of my friends who are sensitive to syndet asked me to make soap that are gentle on the skin.



Zany_in_CO said:


> Hiya Jordan and Welcome to SMF!
> What you said is true, especially if you plan on making and selling dish soap.  However, speaking just for me, to buy all the ingredients to make a bottle of Syndet (Synthetic/Detergent) dish soap, it isn't cost effective, is it? For me, it would be less expensive to buy a bottle ready made, wouldn't it?
> 
> Plus, I have a problem with synthetic ingredients. They irritate my skin. That's why I learned to make lye-based hard bars and liquid soap.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 20, 2020)

Jor224 said:


> This is why I want to explore soap making using plant oil, some of my friends who are sensitive to syndet asked me to make soap that are gentle on the skin.


*@Jor224*    Since Indonesia is one the world's largest distributors of sustainable palm oil, employing 8-9 million people according to this *article in The Jakarta Post*,  I expect it would be readily available to you. One of my favorite  recipes for sensitive skin is made with palm oil, olive oil and palm kernel oil. I've just posted the recipe for you here:
_*Zany's Palm Olive Soap*_

*ETA:* My apologies to *@fillycate* for the hijack._* *_


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## Jor224 (Jul 20, 2020)

Thank you for the recipe. Can I just replace it with KOH for liquid soap?

and yes, we have lots of palm oil here, they're very cheap. Olive on the other hand, are expensive.



Zany_in_CO said:


> *@Jor224*    Since Indonesia is one the world's largest distributors of sustainable palm oil, employing 8-9 million people according to this *article in The Jakarta Post*,  I expect it would be readily available to you. One of my favorite  recipes for sensitive skin is made with palm oil, olive oil and palm kernel oil. I've just posted the recipe for you here:
> _*Zany's Palm Olive Soap*_
> 
> *ETA:* My apologies to *@fillycate* for the hijack._* *_


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 20, 2020)

Jor224 said:


> Thank you for the recipe. Can I just replace it with KOH for liquid soap?


You're welcome.
No, sadly, bar soap recipes don't convert easily to liquid soap.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 21, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> *@Jor224*    Since Indonesia is one the world's largest distributors of sustainable palm oil, employing 8-9 million people according to this *article in The Jakarta Post*,  I expect it would be readily available to you. One of my favorite  recipes for sensitive skin is made with palm oil, olive oil and palm kernel oil. I've just posted the recipe for you here:
> _*Zany's Palm Olive Soap*_
> 
> *ETA:* My apologies to *@fillycate* for the hijack._* *_


Please start a new thread this has nothing to do with the OP Thread.


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