# Unusual „glycerin” problem/INCI



## Twiggy (Jan 17, 2014)

Recently I have unusual glycerin problem with my soaps. In past few weeks I’ve send out some samples of my soaps to bloggers around my country. They all been very happy about it and I got excellent opinions, BUT… But I can see in commentaries under the articles about my little bars, that some peoples are not happy about glycerin in INCI list. I could not believe it! Glycerin is why the soap is so good and moisturizing for skin, and that why is soooo much better than commercial soap, which is stripped off from that wonderful ingredient… And Good God, I didn’t add it to the batch, it just how thing work in soap world. I know where from they have their concerns – people were told, that glycerin is something very bad in creams – I agree! But they went further and spared that thought on all cosmetics, shame they didn’t mentioned where from glycerin is taken from - from soap! Do you put glycerin on your INCI? I guess that we have to…


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## pamielynn (Jan 17, 2014)

Do you add glycerin to your soap recipe?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 17, 2014)

Twiggy said:


> .......... And Good God, I didn’t add it to the batch, it just how thing work in soap world.......



No, just listing the naturally occurring stuff


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## judymoody (Jan 17, 2014)

Maybe things are different in the EU, but I only list the ingredients that go into my recipe, not byproducts of the saponification process.


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## jade-15 (Jan 17, 2014)

I was amused to see in an etsy (or made-it, - Australian version) store someone advertising their home made cold processed soap... "No glycerin in our soaps!" they said...


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## MirandaH (Jan 17, 2014)

jade-15 said:


> I was amused to see in an etsy (or made-it, - Australian version) store someone advertising their home made cold processed soap... "No glycerin in our soaps!" they said...



Huh???  That's interesting.  How exactly do they pull that off??  And if possible, which I don't believe it is, why would you want to??  Weirdos.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 17, 2014)

I think that is the issue - are you listing oils and lye, or the oils in their saponified forms?  If the former (what you used), then you don't need to list Gly.  If the former (what is actually in the soap, which is different than what you used) then it could be different.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 17, 2014)

I agree, I would only list ingredients used to make your product not the by product as previously mentioned as you aren't actually adding glycerin to your product.


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## Twiggy (Jan 17, 2014)

Thank you all for answers! I will investigate that issue! As for now nothing makes sense to be hones – if I need to list 2 drops of colorant, and I do not need to list gly. which can reach up to 20% of the soap vol, than I don’t feel I’m honest on my labels. Ok, I will search for info, and promise to get back with the answer soon I will get it!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 17, 2014)

It's not dishonest - if you're listing lye, then don't list Gly.  (oooh, t-shirt idea!)

If you list lye, you're also being dishonest - there is no more lye, as it has saponified with the oils to become a mix of the oil and lye in a soapy compound that is certainly no longer lye.  Which is why commercial soaps often have the saponified names for oils rather than the original/INCI names for the oils.

You list scents and colours as you put those in.  You don't list "Soap" as an ingredient but it is in there with the gly.


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## Twiggy (Jan 17, 2014)

No, no, I list it that way, i.e. Sodium Olivate, Sodium Cocoa Butterate and so on, so don’t list lye any more.

if you're listing lye, then don't list Gly - great idea for t-shirt


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## shunt2011 (Jan 17, 2014)

When listing lye you are not being dishonest, I list everything that I use to make my product.  In order to make soap you need to use lye regardless if there's any in the final product. I don't add glycerin therefore I don't list it even though it's a byproduct of making it.  That's my personal feelings anyway.  I list ingredients in order of most to least used.


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## Twiggy (Jan 17, 2014)

That’s absolutely true, but if I’m using the listing method that I put all product of chemical reaction, than I don’t list lye – right?


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## MirandaH (Jan 17, 2014)

Twiggy said:


> That’s absolutely true, but if I’m using the listing method that I put all product of chemical reaction, than I don’t list lye – right?



I don't know the rules for you, but in my mind, I would think that putting lye would not be necessary if you are posting the way you said above because the way the oils are now listed would imply that lye has already been a factor.  But in this case, I would list the gly, like you were saying before.  

In my mind, it's one or the other.  Listing what is left would require gly to be listed but not lye. Listing what you put in would require listing lye, but not gly.


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## Saponista (Jan 17, 2014)

Take a look at oakwood soaperie's website, she lists all her ingredients in her cold process soap. She doesn't list glycerin and she is a uk seller part of lots of guilds etc. so she is definitely adhering to uk regulations.


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

Here in Canada we have to list what is in the completed product so lye is not listed.  It is still in the debating stage about glycerin though since it makes up 25% of the soap.  I don't list it because I don't want people to think I am adding glycerin.  On the other hand why can't we do the same as Lush and put an asterisk beside it and then note at the end of the list that is naturally occurring in the finished product?


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## pamielynn (Jan 17, 2014)

Generally you list what goes into the pot. There is no way for you to determine the amount of glycerin in the finished soap.


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

Actually there is - for every gram of lye you use you get back .7 grams of glycerin.  This is according to a Safety Assessor in the EU.

 Each country has its own regulations - in the USA pretty much anything goes, but in Canada we have very definite regulations on labeling soap and as I stated you are required to put what the ingredients are in the completed item and in the case of soap there is no lye left so it is not listed.  Instead we list everything using INCI which covers the saponification process.  Sodium Olivate literally means Olive Oil Soap.


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## Twiggy (Jan 17, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Here in Canada we have to list what is in the completed product so lye is not listed.  It is still in the debating stage about glycerin though since it makes up 25% of the soap.  I don't list it because I don't want people to think I am adding glycerin.  On the other hand why can't we do the same as Lush and put an asterisk beside it and then note at the end of the list that is naturally occurring in the finished product?





Lindy said:


> Actually there is - for every gram of lye you use you get back .7 grams of glycerin.  This is according to a Safety Assessor in the EU.
> Each country has its own regulations - in the USA pretty much anything goes, but in Canada we have very definite regulations on labeling soap and as I stated you are required to put what the ingredients are in the completed item and in the case of soap there is no lye left so it is not listed.  Instead we list everything using INCI which covers the saponification process.  Sodium Olivate literally means Olive Oil Soap.



Lindy thank you so much for answer! Exactly, up to 25%!!!! It is ¼ of our product, so why not put it on INCI list??? On each 10 lb of the soap is nearly 2,5 lb of gly.
Canada and EU have very similar regulations about cosmetic labeling I guess. I label soap as you just said (Sodium Olivate and so on), and I think is great idea to let people know the glycerin is a byproduct and present in soap. That’s what I’m going to do! I will start campaign on me side to educate people a bit


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

You're welcome Twiggy.  Canada and the EU are very similar - the biggest difference is that we don't have to have an SA but we do have a 'portal' to register our formulas just not in as much detail....


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## Twiggy (Jan 17, 2014)

If we are talking about SA Lindy, I struggle with thoughts if I should contact Scott and see if it would be possible to get his SA… I really wonder if it could work for me….


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## jade-15 (Jan 17, 2014)

If you sell online, you could use an explanation like this seller does - stating that the glycerin in soap is naturally formed during soap making and good for your skin. 

http://www.madeit.com.au/Main/Item?itemId=901112


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

Twiggy Scott is worth contacting - he will tell you straight up if he can't help you.

 Jade great idea!


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## pamielynn (Jan 17, 2014)

Thanks for clarifying - but do you have to test each soap batch to ensure that it is completely free of lye and you have that exact amount of glycerin?


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## Twiggy (Jan 17, 2014)

Jade, Lindy - thank you Ladies for answer!  I will be definitely contacting Scott in that case! Will let you all know how it goes!


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## coffeetime (Jan 17, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Actually there is - for every gram of lye you use you get back .7 grams of glycerin.  This is according to a Safety Assessor in the EU.
> 
> Each country has its own regulations - in the USA pretty much anything goes, but in Canada we have very definite regulations on labeling soap and as I stated you are required to put what the ingredients are in the completed item and in the case of soap there is no lye left so it is not listed.  Instead we list everything using INCI which covers the saponification process.  Sodium Olivate literally means Olive Oil Soap.




Lindy, I have been all over those labelling regulations and did not find that stated anywhere. Where did you find the regulation that end-of-process ingredients are the way to list?


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

Coffeetime - of course the site is down and I can't access all the documents right now.  I know that I read it in the labeling section but I will have to search to find it again.  They want the ingredients that are present in the final product.


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> Thanks for clarifying - but do you have to test each soap batch to ensure that it is completely free of lye and you have that exact amount of glycerin?



 No you don't.  If the soap doesn't zap it is safe.  The pH strips don't work worth something or other on soap so you won't get an accurate reading from them.  The best test is the tongue test.


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

Coffeetime - If you have a copy of Labelling Etiquette in section 2.1 it reads:



> INGREDIENT - Subsection 2(1) of the Cosmetic Regulations (Food and Drugs Act) - An ingredient means any substance that is one of more components of a cosmetic and includes colouring agents, botanicals, fragrance and flavour, but *does not include substances that are used in the preparation of the product but that are not present in the final product as a result of the chemical process. *


 
 This would apply to saponification.


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## coffeetime (Jan 17, 2014)

Thanks Lindy. I even remember reading that section but somehow it didn't register. Could have been because it was 2:30 in the morning. Boy those CNF's are a PITA. They tell you to list INCI but then don't recognize the INCI, only the common name. And the PDF form only let me type one letter at a time- any faster and it wouldn't  register. A major exercise in frustration.


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

LOL - I know but I sure like having my CNF # right away....  AND we have it better than the EU they have to submit copies of the SA, label and I forget but I think a bunch more stuff....


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## coffeetime (Jan 17, 2014)

True. Could be worse.


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

Let's hope it does become worse because they are in discussions (Canada - EU) on free trade....


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## coffeetime (Jan 17, 2014)

Lindy said:


> LOL - I know but I sure like having my CNF # right away....  AND we have it better than the EU they have to submit copies of the SA, label and I forget but I think a bunch more stuff....




Lindy, do you put your reg. # on your packaging? Or is that necessary at all?


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## soap_rat (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm just learning about cosmetics, why is glycerin a bad ingredient in creams?  I thought I'd seen it listed as an option when making formulas on sites such as swiftmonkey's.  (I could be wrong).  Please educate me!


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## Lindy (Jan 17, 2014)

Not required coffeetime


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## coffeetime (Jan 17, 2014)

soap_rat said:


> I'm just learning about cosmetics, why is glycerin a bad ingredient in creams?  I thought I'd seen it listed as an option when making formulas on sites such as swiftmonkey's.  (I could be wrong).  Please educate me!




Soap_rat, I think it might be because it could come from animal fat and in most products you wouldn't know the source. The EWG lists it as an issue put forward by PETA. There are a lot of vegans out there, to whom that possibility would be horrifying.


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## Lindy (Jan 18, 2014)

The other thing I've read is that glycerin can cause blackheads....  but the vegan comment by Coffeetime is quite correct as well.


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## Twiggy (Jan 18, 2014)

Glycerin from plant and animals fat would be not so bad at all, as the same one we can find in plant and lard, tallow … soap. But gly. can be also derive from biodiesel production – so unless you absolutely sure the source you can use with clear conscience. From trusted supplier should be no problem thou


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## Lindy (Jan 18, 2014)

Ahhh I hadn't thought of that Twiggy...


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## Twiggy (Jan 18, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Ahhh I hadn't thought of that Twiggy...



Oh, Lindy, I just had article about it in my hands – that’s why I remembered!


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## Saponista (Jan 18, 2014)

Personally I would have no problem using glycerine that came from biofuel production. It comes from natural sources as biofuel is made from things like sugar cane and other natural plants which is fermented to make the fuel. So in effect that glycerine is natural too.


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## Twiggy (Jan 18, 2014)

Saponista said:


> Personally I would have no problem using glycerine that came from biofuel production. It comes from natural sources as biofuel is made from things like sugar cane and other natural plants which is fermented to make the fuel. So in effect that glycerine is natural too.



I know nothing about the process, so that’s why I would not go for it. But if you have the knowledge, and know that such glycerin is clean enough to use for skin - than I don’t see why not.


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## Saponista (Jan 18, 2014)

I only have the knowledge because I work with biofuels twiggy, I wasn't trying to be rude or anything.


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## Twiggy (Jan 18, 2014)

Saponista said:


> I only have the knowledge because I work with biofuels twiggy, I wasn't trying to be rude or anything.



NO!!!! I was not thinking that!!!! :smile: Sure not, me too! That what I thought - you must work with it in some way to know such things  It must be extremely interesting! And that's why I also said, that I don’t have a clue about it so I wouldn’t use to my face. So you think even from biofuel, gly is ok? That is very interesting!


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