# Making shampoo & conditioners



## Monab (Jan 24, 2021)

Hey, everyone!!
I was wondering if anyone make shampoo and conditioner? This is something that I'm hitting a wall with like everytime. I've made liquid soap but how do I go about making shampoo?? Conditioner?? What do I add to make it gentle on your scalp?  My hair is very brittle right because of the conditioner I use. So, I need to make something that add to my hair or get a good idea? 


Anyone, with information please help☹.


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## Arimara (Jan 24, 2021)

Shampoos and conditioners are not like soap, which is alkaline. They are closer to being pH balanced, especially for hair. The best ones for hair in general are made with surfactants, emulsifiers, emoliants, and humectants. Since there is more science involved, your best guide would be found at Susan's blog here which houses a lot of information that can better help you.


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## cmzaha (Jan 24, 2021)

Monab said:


> Hey, everyone!!
> I was wondering if anyone make shampoo and conditioner? This is something that I'm hitting a wall with like everytime. I've made liquid soap but how do I go about making shampoo?? Conditioner?? What do I add to make it gentle on your scalp?  My hair is very brittle right because of the conditioner I use. So, I need to make something that add to my hair or get a good idea?
> 
> 
> Anyone, with information please help☹.


Do you realize hair conditioner is basically a lotion? You will need to read about preserving and making lotions in order to make hair conditioners. There are some very good commercial conditioners available.

My question is why is your hair brittle? Is it a health problem, medications, are you using soap to wash it, or hair product damage, sun damage, wind damage etc.? When I would have customers with damaged I would try to get to the bottom of the issue, many times it was medications and there was nothing we could do but regular hair cut. You have to remember hair is dead and damaged hair cannot be fixed only cut off and regrown. Hair conditioners will coat and smooth the hair shaft but will NOT fix damage no matter what ads tell you.

What the vitamins help nourish is the scalp root hair, follicles not the dead ends. So conditioners do have a purpose they just do not fix dead hair.


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## ilonaliss (Jan 24, 2021)

Check out Humblebee and Me- Marie's recipes for liquid and solid shampoos and conditioners are a great starting point. Bear in mind that it might take a lot of experimentation with different formulations to find one that your hair likes. Basic formulations available online may not work for problematic hair and ones with lots of "goodies" (hydrolysed proteins, silicones, plant extracts, vitamins, exotic oils etc) can be expensive to make. I'm not trying to discourage you, just letting you know. Why do you think your current conditioner is making your hair brittle?


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## Monab (Jan 24, 2021)

cmzaha said:


> Do you realize hair conditioner is basically a lotion? You will need to read about preserving and making lotions in order to make hair conditioners. There are some very good commercial conditioners available.
> 
> My question is why is your hair brittle? Is it a health problem, medications, are you using soap to wash it, or hair product damage, sun damage, wind damage etc.? When I would have customers with damaged I would try to get to the bottom of the issue, many times it was medications and there was nothing we could do but regular hair cut. You have to remember hair is dead and damaged hair cannot be fixed only cut off and regrown. Hair conditioners will coat and smooth the hair shaft but will NOT fix damage no matter what ads tell you.
> 
> What the vitamins help nourish is the scalp root hair, follicles not the dead ends. So conditioners do have a purpose they just do not fix dead hair.


Yes, I am aware but I already cut hair off  about a few months ago because I used a shampoo and conditioner that literally made my hair brittle, dry and was falling out. I try to stay away from a lot product because they damage my hair within the first use. Making shampoo and conditioner is not just for my but it for my whole family. I know its alot of work but I dont mind. There is a lot of information on solid but not so much on liquid.


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## lsg (Jan 24, 2021)

I make shampoo using surfactants and have made conditioners.  The Herbarie has some good recipes.


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## cmzaha (Jan 24, 2021)

Monab said:


> Yes, I am aware but I already cut hair off  about a few months ago because I used a shampoo and conditioner that literally made my hair brittle, dry and was falling out. I try to stay away from a lot product because they damage my hair within the first use. Making shampoo and conditioner is not just for my but it for my whole family. I know its alot of work but I dont mind. There is a lot of information on solid but not so much on liquid.


I will stick to what I originally said, it sounds more medical than a shampoo or conditioner problem.  Even extreme stress can affect hair almost overnight. When I was going through a couple of years of extreme family stress my hair became a mess, you would have thought I was on chemo treatments, it has taken over a year to improve, although it is not even close to what it was. Very seldom falling out hair is caused by external products other than chemical damage such as hair bleaching, perm solutions, curling irons, etc. Have you consulted a Dermatologist, if not I would highly recommend it.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 24, 2021)

Monab said:


> I was wondering if anyone make shampoo and conditioner? ... My hair is very brittle right because of the conditioner I use.


The subject of lye-based shampoo vs. Syn-Dets (Synthetic/Detergent) shampoo has been discussed many times. Search "Shampoo" for more information.

I have been using lye-based shampoo, bars & liquid, since 2004. I rarely use conditioner because I don't need it but here is a recipe I've made and used in the past:
*ZANY'S HAIR CONDITIONER WITH LEMON*

Since your hair is brittle now, I would highly recommend cleansing your hair and scalp with *Polysorbate 80*. It's very mild and you will be amazed at how soft and shiny your hair is once all the product has been removed. When applying, pay special attention to the scalp.

When it comes to making Liquid Soap as Shampoo, there is no "One-Size-Fits-All". You can use the LS you've already made. The key is to rinse thoroughly with cool water until it is as cold as you can stand it to close the hair shaft, then use an *Apple Cider Vinegar Rinse* to restore the acid balance of the scalp.

There is good information on *this site* to learn about the different oils that are beneficial for different types of hair.  With that information you can then formulate a recipe, hard bar or LS, that works well for your hair.

HTH and Good Luck!


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## MKLonestar (Feb 28, 2021)

Monab said:


> Hey, everyone!!
> I was wondering if anyone make shampoo and conditioner? This is something that I'm hitting a wall with like everytime. I've made liquid soap but how do I go about making shampoo?? Conditioner?? What do I add to make it gentle on your scalp?  My hair is very brittle right because of the conditioner I use. So, I need to make something that add to my hair or get a good idea?
> 
> 
> Anyone, with information please help☹.


It is very possible that your hair has become very brittle from OVER shampooing and conditioning it. I know this sounds weird, but if I shampoo/condition my hair more than twice a month it gets extremely brittle and breaks or falls out. My hair actually does better being shampooed/conditioned once monthly, especially in winter. Yes, in summer I do need to shampoo more often, but I do not condition every time. I also use serum in the summer on my hair that is made with Quinoa and Caffeine that also really helps when I have to wash it on a more frequent basis.


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## Monab (Mar 1, 2021)

MKLonestar said:


> It is very possible that your hair has become very brittle from OVER shampooing and conditioning it. I know this sounds weird, but if I shampoo/condition my hair more than twice a month it gets extremely brittle and breaks or falls out. My hair actually does better being shampooed/conditioned once monthly, especially in winter. Yes, in summer I do need to shampoo more often, but I do not condition every time. I also use serum in the summer on my hair that is made with Quinoa and Caffeine that also really helps when I have to wash it on a more frequent basis.


Yes, I usually don't use shampoo but I tried something new and within a week my hair was dry.  I just went back to what I was using. Hopefully, it get back to normal but I'm still figuring out how to make hair product.


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## lonalea (Mar 25, 2021)

does adding citric acid to rebatched cp soap make the ph ok for shampoo?


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## Kamahido (Mar 25, 2021)

lonalea said:


> does adding citric acid to rebatched cp soap make the ph ok for shampoo?


It does not, as soap will always be an alkaline.


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## GemstonePony (Mar 26, 2021)

Just to clarify, are you looking to make soap and use it as shampoo? Or are you looking to jump into synthetic detergents? It's kinda two different universes. My two cents it that if your hair is already damaged, the alkalinity of soap might not be your friend, but some people's hair seems ok with it, so maybe you'll be fine


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## Professor Bernardo (Mar 26, 2021)

lonalea said:


> does adding citric acid to rebatched cp soap make the ph ok for shampoo?


It will adjust a little bit.  The average pH of liquid soaps is around 9.5 pH or so.
Too much citric acid will cause the fats to separate out and make a mess of your liquid soap.

Some hair care people recommend using a conditioner after shampooing with a liquid "castile-type" soap.

I use a Castile Orange oil scented liquid soap, which I made, and have no issues.  I have oily hair and I know that this soap really cleans my hair exceptionally well.


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## lonalea (Mar 27, 2021)

I have been making a shampoo bar...I rebatch and add the citric acid...I haven't noticed any problems but don't want any down the road


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## Juggsy (Apr 25, 2021)

I make shampoo and conditioner but not with soap nor castile/Bastille soap but with surfactants. Personally, I don't find it hard - kinda like Soapmaking- it's a formula and you need to follow it closely.  Because hair produces are water based they need a preservative. I do this because hair is different from skin. The pH levels for acceptable shampoos are very different from soap (I explain further if you keep reading). I don't use anything lye based for shampoo etc and find the formulas easy to follow.

I actually started with chemical formulation books - ancient, outdated, not natural - but they were widely available for cosmetic industry and if you've made hot process soap, I think you'd have no issue. For me, reading and understanding chemical formulas was the lead into soap. I started with chemical formulation and moved into soap making (I assume the opposite of most).

But shampoo is just about understanding what's needed.

You basically need:

*Primary Surfactant*:  main foaming/cleansing agent (30 years ago the most popular would have been SLS - NOT as popular now but still widely used)

*Secondary Surfactant:* foam building/reduces the drying affect of primary

*Viscosity Builders:* thickening agents etc. interesting when you think about why. The why, is simply perception (a bit like liquid soap) - our brains equate thickness to how concentrated something is and if you've ever made liquid soap you know this isn't necessarily true.

*Stabiliser/Foam Boosters:* it's crucial to stabilise the foam boosters added because we aren't making bubble bath so you want some foam bubbles but not lots. Foam boosters aren't necessary but it's a bit like liquid soap again, we like the foaming action because we can see it.

*Preservative: *110% necessary and no matter what any one says, vitamin E isn't a preservative it's an antioxidant - it slows oil oxidisation. Anything water based needs a preservative. Same as rosemary extract etc. While some essential oils do have some preservative levels (wrong word, but brain fart) we don't use them in concentrations that would kill microbes etc.

*Conditioning agents:* yes, shampoo has conditioning agents helps with moisture content, static etc.

*Opacifiers/pearlisers: *again, it's a brain thing. Consumers equate pearl-esque (my brain hates me again) shampoos to be more luxurious and creamy/rich.

*Humectants: *Essential for scalp especially but they keep moisture in etc.

*pH adjuster: *I aim for 3.5 - 4.5. It's interesting as hair natural pH is about 3.7 but scalp pH is 5.5 - scientists consider high pH shampoo as shampoo with pH greater than 5.5 - soap can't get that low and is why it's not great for hair. It's why if you do wash in castile/Bastille soap you need to rinse with ACV. Although it still won't rinse out completely. I've not come across any hair stylist, hair technician or hairdresser that recommends washing with soap.

*Fragrance:* Essential oils are best especially when used for their properties- rosemary will help,  restore, peppermint will invigorate the scalp (helps with hair loss) etc.

*Specialty additives:* proteins and added nutrients like hydrolised wheat protein,     antifungal actives, etc are added for scalp treatment and/or adding nutrients. Depending on hair condition and type. As an example, I make three different shampoos for my family alone - we all have different hair structure,  texture and scalp conditions.

*Suspending agents:* These help water-insoluble additives disperse in shampoo without affecting the stability, foaming, cleansing actions etc.

*Chelating Agents: *added for hard water, important for people who swim regularly (me) as they have ability to remove chlorine and mineral deposits (eg. limescale) from the scalp and hair. They also prevent colour and fragrance degradation.

Once you understand the different functions of the ingredients and the process it isn't too hard to formulate your own shampoo. 

Someone above said that conditioners are just like lotions. This is true. If you've ever made lotion, you will have an idea how to formulate conditioner. 

As for formulas I think Elise's blog _WholeElise_ has a good basic clarifying shampoo.

I came across Elise's blog when I was trying to find the approximate percentages of Aesop's Handwash as one of my clients loves it so much but would prefer to buy local. I put an Australian twist on the Aesop's with lemon myrtle and bush mint.  I also make one with banksia flower and native bee honey - seriously the best smell and sustainable for me as I have several native bee hives and a friend who is a cellular extractor (seriously don't ask me to explain that - it's too complicated).

Also, Tracey from _Oh, The Things We'll Make_, makes a great basic baby shampoo or her sydnet shampoo bars (made from surfactants) I believe are good for beginners.
My ten year old daughter follows Oh, The Things We'll Make as she has some wonderful crafts and she begged me to use the dishwasher to cook  after seeing Tracey's post on dishwasher cooking.  If my daughter can make lotions from that blog, I'm positive others can too.

Both Elise and Tracey have some good basic information and while I'll always advocate books first, I do think these are valuable resources if you haven't made shampoo, conditioner and/or lotions before.

Making shampoos is different from soapmaking but I find it extremely rewarding. My hair was regularly shedding/falling out (scary amount) and although it was/is stress based, the improvement to my scalp condition due to formulating my own shampoo was amazing. I do believe in holistic care but don't believe that vitamins and minerals alone will improve scalp and hair condition.

_Edit: corrected spelling _


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## Quanta (Apr 26, 2021)

lonalea said:


> I have been making a shampoo bar...I rebatch and add the citric acid...I haven't noticed any problems but don't want any down the road


If you add enough citric acid to soap to actually bring the pH down enough to make it safe to use on hair (shampoo pH should be between 4 and 6) then the soap will fall apart and separate and you won't have soap anymore. If your rebatched bar is still in one piece and lathering properly, that means the pH is still too high for hair and it will make your hair dry and brittle due to damage to the cuticle. This can be partially fixed if you rinse with an acid (like vinegar) because that closes the cuticle, but this means that every time you wash your hair with soap and rinse with vinegar, you're opening and closing the cuticle. This is the same damage that occurs when hair is chemically treated (dye or perm) except it happens every time you wash. This is why people who regularly use soap to wash their hair don't wash it as often.

I make syndet bars to wash my hair and it is much, much gentler than soap. I also make a conditioner bar and my hair has never been softer. There is no need to open the cuticle when you wash, it doesn't get your hair cleaner than leaving it closed and it only leads to damage.


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## Quanta (Apr 26, 2021)

Professor Bernardo said:


> I use a Castile Orange oil scented liquid soap, which I made, and have no issues.  I have oily hair and I know that this soap really cleans my hair exceptionally well.


Some people have oily hair because their shampoo removes too much natural oil from their scalp, triggering the scalp to produce more oil to replace it. It becomes a vicious cycle of stripping the oil out and the skin overcompensating by producing a lot of oil, which is then stripped again by harsh shampoo.

Has your scalp always been oily? Have you tried using a more gentle shampoo for a few months to let your scalp adjust to not having to produce as much oil?


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 26, 2021)

lonalea said:


> I have been making a shampoo bar...I rebatch and add the citric acid...I haven't noticed any problems but don't want any down the road


You may want to read this post for more info about making lye-based shampoo bars:

*https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/making-shampoo-conditioners.82617/#post-870660*



Quanta said:


> rinse with an acid (like vinegar) because that closes the cuticle, but this means that every time you wash your hair with soap and rinse with vinegar, you're opening and closing the cuticle.


Your advice is well taken.  Just a minor correction from one who has been using lye-based soap to shampoo ever since I first started making soap in 2003. The key is to *rinse thoroughly with cool water* until it is as cold as you can stand it to _close the cuticle_, then use an *Apple Cider Vinegar Rinse* to restore the acid balance of the scalp.


Quanta said:


> that means the pH is still too high for hair and it will make your hair dry and brittle due to damage to the cuticle.


There are quite a few members on SMF that have experienced that problem. Personally, I believe it is due to not taking the time it takes to rinse all the soap residue from the hair. This happens with DIY laundry soap too. If you don't rinse all the soap scum out, your clothes and linens become stiff, dingy looking and smelly over time.


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## Quanta (Apr 26, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Your advice is well taken.  Just a minor correction from one who has been using lye-based soap to shampoo ever since I first started making soap in 2003. The key is to *rinse thoroughly with cool water* until it is as cold as you can stand it to _close the cuticle_, then use an *Apple Cider Vinegar Rinse* to restore the acid balance of the scalp.


Not so. The skin will rebalance its own pH within 15 minutes of being washed with soap. If what you're saying is true, we would need to rinse our hands with vinegar every time we use soap to wash our hands.

It is a very well established fact that the pH of a solution applied to hair has more to do with the cuticle opening and closing, than the temperature. This is the mechanism by which hair dyes work. An alkaline solution is applied to hair to force the cuticle to open so that pigment can be deposited under it, and then an acid is applied to force it back down, trapping the pigment. That's why permanent hair dyes are always in two parts. (Not temporary dyes, those just deposit the color on the surface of the hair strand.)

I'm sorry, but I think you're misunderstanding the role of acid in your hair care routine. You _are_ using it, so your cuticle is being forced back down, but it's not the temperature that's doing it. It's the acid.



> There are quite a few members on SMF that have experienced that problem. Personally, I believe it is due to not taking the time it takes to rinse all the soap residue from the hair. This happens with DIY laundry soap too. If you don't rinse all the soap scum out, your clothes and linens become stiff, dingy looking and smelly over time.


Most people's hair is just not able to tolerate repeated alkaline washes. You can even buy special shampoos and conditioners meant for chemically damaged hair (for people who have repeatedly permed or dyed their hair - same kind of damage) so this is a well known phenomenon. There are a lucky few whose hair is remarkably tough and can handle soap, but that's very few people. You seem to be one of them, but your hair is the exception, not the rule.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 26, 2021)

*@Quanta:* You have a PM.
My apologies to the OP for the hijack.


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## Professor Bernardo (Apr 26, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Some people have oily hair because their shampoo removes too much natural oil from their scalp, triggering the scalp to produce more oil to replace it. It becomes a vicious cycle of stripping the oil out and the skin overcompensating by producing a lot of oil, which is then stripped again by harsh shampoo.
> 
> Has your scalp always been oily? Have you tried using a more gentle shampoo for a few months to let your scalp adjust to not having to produce as much oil?


I have always had oily hair.  It's a genetic thing.  Less problems using liquid soaps, back in my 20's I used Dr. Bronner's Peppermint Castile Soap exclusively for my entire body & hair cleansing.  Got away from it because my former wife bought the cheap detergent stuff at Wally World.  
My dandruff has lessened considerably too.


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## cmzaha (Apr 26, 2021)

Quanta is very correct with her information. It does not matter if using cold water or vinegar to close the raised cuticle of the hair shaft. Every time the cuticle is raised due to the high ph of soap damage is happening. Zany you are fortunate and I am guessing your hair is trimmed regularly as most men's hair is, so soap does not do as much damage, but take long past the shoulder hair and see what can happen. When hair is short and trimmed on a regular basis the damage is trimmed off. The other type of damage is split ends which continue up the hair shaft once the split starts, it cannot be fixed only band-aided with conditioners. As I have mentioned many times here in the forum hair is dead and dead cannot be fixed or resurrected. Back in my day, this was basically Cosmetology 101 or Freshman room Cosmetology.


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## Quanta (Apr 27, 2021)

First of all, Zany, I want to say that it is not my intention to pick a fight with you. I'm sorry that you seem to have taken my post as an attack. I have always found interaction with other people to be frustratingly difficult (online or not). No matter what I say or how I say it, people get offended and I lack the social skills to know how to approach things with more tact (and believe me, I have tried). I also never seem to "get" when a topic is emotional for other people, and thus I don't act/speak in an appropriately sensitive manner. To me, there are only facts and I am relaying those facts; emotions and feelings just don't come into it. I guess I am a Vulcan or something. Please try to understand how difficult this is for me.

I guess I should have opened with an explanation that I do not mean to offend, only enlighten. For all the good that would have done. *sigh*
I am only trying to clear up some misinformation, mainly the idea that soap-as-shampoo will work for anyone. It has been demonstrated that due to the differences in various hair types, this is just not the case. There are those few that it does work for, but those few like to extrapolate their own experience onto other hair types and that is just not how it works. Forgive me for trying to make things clear for the newbies.



Zany_in_CO said:


> If my terminology is incorrect, I stand corrected.   It has been a long time since I first saw a graphic of how the cold rinse closes the hair shaft and the vinegar rinse restores the acid balance (pH) of the scalp. And I do agree... from what I've learned over the years is that the scalp has the ability to return to normal pH within 20 minutes of shampooing, if I recall correctly.


Do you then recognize that it is the pH of the wash/rinse, and not so much the temperature, that is raising and lowering the cuticle? It is better to use products that are acidic to wash _and_ rinse/condition hair because it doesn't raise the cuticle in the first place. Soap can never be acidic, and I know you know that. That fact alone makes it unsuitable for _most _hair types.
If water gets under the cuticle, it causes the cortex to swell which raises the cuticle further. A cuticle in good shape with its protective coating intact should do its job and keep water out. Using soap (with or without an acid rinse) tends to remove the protective coating and damage the cuticle, allowing more water to penetrate deeper into the hair strand. The cuticle should be kept closed at all times if at all possible. This means using an acidic hair washing product to keep the cuticle down during washing, which necessarily means syndets since the pH can be adjusted down to suitable levels.



> In a way, you are "preaching to the choir". You will be happy to know the majority of members on SMF agree with you. Syndet (synthetic/detergent) Shampoo vs. lye-based Shampoo Bars has been discussed many times. Since I'm allergic to commercial products, I'm happy to share my experience with lye-based shampoo with others who find themselves in the same boat... when I'm allowed to do so.


I'm sorry if I made you feel like I wasn't allowing you to say that soap works for you. I do recognize that there are people for whom it works, but for most it does not. You came across as saying that it will work for anyone. I apologize if I misunderstood you. And I already know that most here share my opinions on shampoo; I was addressing you directly.



> FWIW, I made my first soap in 2003 at age 60. I have used every bar since then to wash my hair & body with no negative results. But it did require a "period of adjustment" at first. During that time, I was on a few top-notch groups and forums where Shampoo Bars were often discussed -- without rancor, I might add. SMF is the first forum where members (albeit unintentionally) strike fear into the hearts of newbies who ask for help. It's a shame, to my mind at least, when they choose syndets when a better alternative is readily available.


I am trying to discuss this without rancor. Again, I'm sorry you're reading me that way.
To be clear, soap as an alternative to syndets is only better in cases where an allergy or a sensitivity to syndets precludes their use. Chemically speaking, acidic syndets will always be much gentler on hair than alkaline soap. This is established, demonstrable, scientific fact. There is also the side issue of the myth that "natural=better than synthetic", and the related myth that soap is somehow more natural than synthetic detergents (despite both being manufactured by artificial chemical processes using plant derivatives as raw materials), but I will not derail further. I will only say that once that myth is dispelled for newbies, most see the sense in using syndets and they stop fearing them.



> When I first joined in 2017 it was a *banned topic* and members were extremely abusive when I brought the subject up -- VERY emotional, and still are to some extent. I'm happy to say they have mellowed out and now keep a civil tone while those of us in the other camp help each other out. But the horror stories continue to sway people away from lye-based shampoo.


I did not know it was a banned topic at one point. That was before I joined.
I do recognize that there are legitimate cases where someone is, due to circumstances outside of their control, forced to use soap to wash their hair because it's either that or nothing. Those people deserve the guidance they need to formulate (and mitigate, i.e. use with acid rinse) a soap suitable for their needs. There are also people who, like I said before, have remarkably tough hair that can withstand soap. You yourself seem to be in both of those categories. I am not denigrating you for that. However, when a newbie stumbles into a discussion like that, it should be made clear that using soap on their own hair will (most likely) cause irreparable damage. There have been cases where people have had to shave their hair off, it was so bad. The horror stories aren't just made up to scare people (why would anyone do that without legitimate reason?), they are told because they really happened and we want the newbies to have enough information to make an informed decision.



> However, because of the ban, other members were reluctant to share their experience in fear of creating a brouhaha. I kept my mouth shut for a whole year until bit-by-bit I could make my case without stirring up a hornet's nest. As a result, I realized I'm not the only one here to make and use lye-based shampoo as one and then another member felt comfortable enough to speak up to share their experience.
> 
> It's been quite a ride.


I'm glad the emotional response is not what it used to be. Things like this should never (in my view) be emotional issues. It is a matter of chemical reactions as they relate to unadjustable characteristics of the structure of human hair and that is that.

Zany, can we agree on the following things?
1. pH, more than temperature, affects how open or closed the cuticle is
2. Not everyone can or should use soap on their hair, because leaving the cuticle down at all times is ideal
3. Synthetic surfactants are milder than soap (on hair) in cases that allow their use without sensitivity or allergy
4. Soap, properly made, is really nice on the rest of the body

Again, let's not fight over what is probably mostly misunderstanding each other. Agreed?


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