# Palm oil confusion



## Cal43 (Dec 28, 2018)

I'm so new at all of this. Please tell me, what's the beef with palm oil. I thought it was vegan, but others say no. I'm seeing post about avoiding it. Please help me to understand. Thanks in advance.


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## Obsidian (Dec 28, 2018)

To keep up with the demand for palm oil the world over, rain forests are destroyed to make room for palm plantations. Many animals are killed or die from this, including orangutans. So while the oil its self is plant based, the animal deaths that come from its production is unacceptable to some.


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## cmzaha (Dec 28, 2018)

...and it gives people jobs that could starve without the Palm industry so I use it guilt free.


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## lsg (Dec 28, 2018)

I try to use  sustainable palm.  Not meaning to sound cross, but I think it would be better if you researched palm and sustainable palm on the Internet.  This is a topic that can lead to arguments, so I think it is better for you to research independently.


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## shunt2011 (Dec 28, 2018)

I too use sustainable palm.


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## Cal43 (Dec 28, 2018)

lsg said:


> I try to use  sustainable palm.  Not meaning to sound cross, but I think it would be better if you researched palm and sustainable palm on the Internet.  This is a topic that can lead to arguments, so I think it is better for you to research independently.



Well taken, you don't sound cross at all. It's good to be pointed in the right direction. I didn't even know that there are options in palm. Thank you.


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## shunt2011 (Dec 28, 2018)

Lard and Tallow are alternatives to palm. I like lard.  Otherwise it will take some creative work to find something similar using butters (shea, cocoa etc.).  And will be more expensive to produce.


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## cmzaha (Dec 28, 2018)

lsg said:


> I try to use  sustainable palm.  Not meaning to sound cross, but I think it would be better if you researched palm and sustainable palm on the Internet.  This is a topic that can lead to arguments, so I think it is better for you to research independently.


Yep, it can lead to very heated arguments


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## Dennis (Dec 28, 2018)

OK Dennis, just shut up!  I mean it!


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## cmzaha (Dec 28, 2018)

Dennis said:


> OK Dennis, just shut up!  I mean it!


 yup


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## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

Cal43 said:


> I'm so new at all of this. Please tell me, what's the beef with palm oil. I thought it was vegan, but others say no. I'm seeing post about avoiding it. Please help me to understand. Thanks in advance.



This is the result of palm oil demand.  Soy wax is the inexpensive vegan alternative to palm.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 28, 2018)

And now ... with this mention of soy wax ... comes the "h**l no, I won't GMO" contingent who won't use soy of any sort.

<...ducking behind Dennis and Carolyn for cover...>


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## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> And now ... with this mention of soy wax ... comes the "h**l no, I won't GMO" contingent who won't use soy of any sort.
> 
> <...ducking behind Dennis and Carolyn for cover...>



Rumor has it that non-GMO Soy wax is available.


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## IrishLass (Dec 28, 2018)

Besides the GMO factor, I know of several folks who steer clear of using soy because of soy allergies. Also, it seems that soy is not without it's own deforestation issues in the Amazon rainforest as they are opening up more and more land to soy production in Brazil.

The older I get, the more I see that there are pros and cons to _everything_ we use for making soap. Everything has an impact for good or bad in one way or another. There's no single 'correct' or 'incorrect' choice for one and all when it comes to using or not using palm in our handmade soaps....or soy, or anything else for that matter. Each ingredient comes with its own peculiar 'baggage' that some can live with and others can live without and vice versa. In then end, it all comes down to which pros outweigh the cons in each individual's minds/consciences.

Bottom line at least for where the forum is concerned is that no one on the forum should ever be scolded for choosing to either use or not use one or the other....... Not that I see anyone being scolded for using or not using palm or soy or animal fats, etc.... in this thread.........at least so far. But we're keeping an eye out. 

 lol


IrishLass


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## shunt2011 (Dec 28, 2018)

There is no soy that is certified organic or non GMO.  About 98% of all soy is GMO.  I did some research when I saw someone advertising organic soy candles.  It’s a personal decision each person needs to make.


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## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

IrishLass said:


> Besides the GMO factor, I know of several folks who steer clear of using soy because of soy allergies. Also, it seems that soy is not without it's own deforestation issues in the Amazon rainforest as they are opening up more and more land to soy production in Brazil.
> 
> The older I get, the more I see that there are pros and cons to _everything_ we use for making soap. Everything has an impact for good or bad in one way or another. There's no single 'correct' or 'incorrect' choice for one and all when it comes to using or not using palm in our handmade soaps....or soy, or anything else for that matter. Each ingredient comes with its own peculiar 'baggage' that some can live with and others can live without and vice versa. In then end, it all comes down to which pros outweigh the cons in each individual's minds/consciences.
> 
> ...



I agree!  My college major was Environmental Studies where I learned “There is no free lunch.”  For example, solar and wind power have serious environmental impacts that I won’t go in to.  However some choices are more environmentally destructive than others.  

I for one have been very careful not to use the “should” word, let alone scold.   Interestingly,  when the topic of vegan or palm free soap comes up, some that dont soap animal or palm free become defensive as if they are being judged when no one to my knowlede has pointed the finger of shame.


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## Terri E (Dec 28, 2018)

Would putting that much wax (soy or other) in your soap be a problem for plumbing or build-up on fixtures? How does it make the soap feel on your skin? I have never added any wax, bees or other to my soap.


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## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

Terri E said:


> Would putting that much wax (soy or other) in your soap be a problem for plumbing or build-up on fixtures? How does it make the soap feel on your skin? I have never added any wax, bees or other to my soap.



Hi Terri,

Saw your cute pup.  My family’s first dog was a samoyed.

I’m not a chemist but I dont think soy wax is a true wax.  Its hydrogenated oil.  No issues with my plumbing.  I use it in high percentages.  Feels fine on the skin.


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## Obsidian (Dec 28, 2018)

I'm really interested in trying some soy wax. I've always stayed away from soy because I associate it with crisco/cheap filler. I generally use plam but I don't care for how it feels in soap and sometimes I do want a all veggie soap.

@Dean do you have a supplier recommendation? I just want a little to try.


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## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

Obsidian said:


> I'm really interested in trying some soy wax. I've always stayed away from soy because I associate it with crisco/cheap filler. I generally use plam but I don't care for how it feels in soap and sometimes I do want a all veggie soap.
> 
> @Dean do you have a supplier recommendation? I just want a little to try.



My last supplier was Natures Garden.  It comes in different grades.  I search for “415”.  @KiwiMoose recently tried it and thought it made a lovely creamy lather.  It has a lot of strearic so adjust quantity to ur desired hardness level.  Let me know how u like it!


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## Obsidian (Dec 28, 2018)

Dean said:


> My last supplier was Natures Garden.  It comes in different grades.  I search for “415”.  @KiwiMoose recently tried it and thought it made a lovely creamy lather.  It has a lot of strearic so adjust quantity to ur desired hardness level.  Let me know how u like it!



Do you know if C - 3 will work? My daughter have 5 lbs of the stuff.


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## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

I don’t think so.  I just read on an online forum that the poster contacted the manufacturer who said it contains additives...which makes sense because its for container candles.  U want 100% hydrogenated soybean oil.  Its super cheap.


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## KiwiMoose (Dec 28, 2018)

Obsidian said:


> Do you know if C - 3 will work? My daughter have 5 lbs of the stuff.


@Obsidian - I think only some of them are suitable for soap (without additives). Some others are used specifically for candles and they have other additives that might not be skin friendly. I use it at 20%, but I’m far from an experienced soaper. I still use 6 other oils for the qualities they bring to the soap. You with your experience will find a way to use it that works well for you I’m sure. I think it gives a good hardness to the soap but provides a nice creamy ‘moisturising’ feel to the soap ( that’s with me using all the other oils I usually use too - coconut at a lower percentage than previously, olive, apricot kernel, castor and Shea.)


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## cmzaha (Dec 28, 2018)

I have used c-3 in soap


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## Obsidian (Dec 28, 2018)

I'll look into the ingredients. I thought I saw on one site that it was additive free. DD said I can have the whole bag if I want.

Edit: the listing says all soy blend so idk, its a blend of different soy? BB did say its skin safe so I might as well give it a try.


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## SaltedFig (Dec 28, 2018)

Obsidian said:


> I'll look into the ingredients. I thought I saw on one site that it was additive free. DD said I can have the whole bag if I want.



From the manufacturer's website: "Additional product sheets are available upon request."
https://www.cargill.com/bioindustrial/naturewax-vegetable-waxes
Cargill, Incorporated
PO Box 9300
Minneapolis, MN
55440-9300
United States
800-227-4455 (English)


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## Terri E (Dec 28, 2018)

Dean said:


> Hi Terri,
> 
> Saw your cute pup.  My family’s first dog was a samoyed.
> 
> I’m not a chemist but I dont think soy wax is a true wax.  Its hydrogenated oil.  No issues with my plumbing.  I use it in high percentages.  Feels fine on the skin.



Love the Samoyeds and thanks for the info, I had never heard of using it in soap


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## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

Obsidian said:


> I'll look into the ingredients. I thought I saw on one site that it was additive free. DD said I can have the whole bag if I want.
> 
> Edit: the listing says all soy blend so idk, its a blend of different soy? BB did say its skin safe so I might as well give it a try.



I def contact the company first to confirm. I’d hate for u to be turned off SW cuz u had a bad experience with an inferior product.  

BTW:  Here is the posting I saw:

_If you are saying, well C-3 is 100% soy wax.. Here is part of an email I got from Mary at Cargill over a year ago when I asked her if C-3 was mixed with any other oils.

"Our wax is made from soybean oil which is under the classification of vegetable oils. The product contains a certain amount of additives to help improve functionality but does not contain botanical oils. "_​


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## Dean (Dec 28, 2018)

Terri E said:


> Love the Samoyeds and thanks for the info, I had never heard of using it in soap



Its a bit obscure but gaining popularity.  Hope you join the Soy Wax Club!


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## penelopejane (Dec 29, 2018)

Dean said:


> My last supplier was Natures Garden.  It comes in different grades.  I search for “415”.  @KiwiMoose recently tried it and thought it made a lovely creamy lather.  It has a lot of strearic so adjust quantity to ur desired hardness level.  Let me know how u like it!


Could you just use stearic acid in soap instead?


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## gloopygloop (Dec 29, 2018)

Just putting aside for a moment the environmental palm issues one of the things which I don't like about palm is its tendency to separate out leaving the solid part kind of crusty and the oily part separate which then required heating up and a good old mix together if you dont want to risk not having a homogenous palm oil, its can become tedious if you have a bulk amount in storage and the weather is cold. This is a reason for me to also not be palm friendly despite it making lovely soap.


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## kayak1987 (Dec 29, 2018)

IMHO all that hate for Palm Oil is just a business for someone. i.e. the ones that makes money with clicks and bad information, or something driven by bigger economical interests.
These plantation are made in developing countries, where they are deforesting and make intensive use of soil to make money, if it's not for palm it will be for something else, maybe Coca, Solar Plants, drillings, mines, other kind of intensive cultivations.
In these countries poor population just want a job to live, the choice is between having a lunch and a dinner or not. Like it happens in the actually "developed" countries. In northern Europe there are still Coal Mines open, and till a decade ago they works in crazy conditions, dying and this is not something environmental sustainable.
But this is needed to "grow" as we did. 
(this is just an example, others are petrol drillings, wars for pertol, and many others less known)
So as I said absolutely IMHO the palm oil fight is just something that now "make news" at the expenses of many other bigger problems beside that.
As I said this is only my two cents opinion, and I really hope that there will be more environmental care.


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## Lin19687 (Dec 29, 2018)

...


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## lsg (Dec 29, 2018)

We know that there are environmental issues in the use of palm or animal fats.  Let's steer away from those murky waters and stick with what those fats and oils do for our soap recipes and a good alternative for those who do not wish to use palm or animal fats.


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## Dean (Dec 29, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> Could you just use stearic acid in soap instead?



Stearic acid is made from animal fat or palm oil.


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## Jill B Blasius (Dec 29, 2018)

Palm? Soy? Just use lard....


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## shunt2011 (Dec 29, 2018)

Jill B Blasius said:


> Palm? Soy? Just use lard....



They are looking for alternative oils to not use animal fats or Palm.  Vegan alternatives.   I like lard though.  To each their own.  Personal preferences and choices.


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## Dean (Dec 29, 2018)

lsg said:


> We know that there are environmental issues in the use of palm or animal fats.  Let's steer away from those murky waters and stick with what those fats and oils do for our soap recipes and a good alternative for those who do not wish to use palm or animal fats.



I agree.  However, I don’t think the OP was aware of the env issues which is why he created the thread.  I think @Obsidian adequately addressed his question in the second post so it could have ended there.  The third post turned it into a debate.

I specifically attempted to steer the conversation away from the debate by creating a thread to discuss vegan palm free soap.  Unfortunately it was trolled by those that don’t soap without fat or palm.  Hence, another debate insued.

Although this is currently a hot topic and may be played out for now (hopefully), I doubt it can be squashed indefinitely, especially with newbies joining all the time.

I wonder if a better way to address the matter is by creating a FAQ for topics that come up frequently.  Palm could be a topic that the FAQ addresses.  When newbies sign-up they can be auto-directed to the FAQ or when a poster brings up the repetitive topic, Admins could  redirect the poster to the FAQ and perhaps close the thread if necessary.   Just a thought.


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## penelopejane (Dec 29, 2018)

Dean said:


> Stearic acid is made from animal fat or palm oil.



Stearic acid can also be made from coconut oil and canola oil.
Rapeseed (canola) oil stearic acid:
https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/palm-free-stearic-acid

Lush are currently working on palm and animal free stearic acid.
Here is the link. Sorry, it goes through the entire palm debate so only read the last few (3) paragraphs or avoid it if you aren’t interested in the debate.
https://uk.lush.com/ingredients/stearic-acid

Shea butter has a higher stearic acid content than cocoa butter.


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## GreeneAcre (Dec 30, 2018)

Source for sustainable Palm oil? I'm interested. Thanks


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## lsg (Dec 30, 2018)

Just google "sustainable palm oil for sale" and you should find several suppliers.


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## GreeneAcre (Dec 30, 2018)

lsg said:


> Just google "sustainable palm oil for sale" and you should find several suppliers.


In searching I found where I already purchase to be a supplier of sustainable palm oil. Good on them. ☺


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## lsg (Dec 30, 2018)

That is good new!


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## Meena (Feb 3, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> I too use sustainable palm.



Ditto, organic sustainable is all i will use.



GreeneAcre said:


> Source for sustainable Palm oil? I'm interested. Thanks



I got mine from Mile High Soap, but they've been out for 2 weeks (expecting more any time), and I haven't found any on the internet but I only looked 2 weeks ago.  Many organic, sustainable products are made in far smaller quantities than 'conventional' products, but hopefully that will be changing soon!


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## Jill B Blasius (Feb 3, 2019)

I've never used palm. I make bars just as hard using firm butters or more CO. 

Just my personal preference. My customers have to suffer, I guess!


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## cmzaha (Feb 3, 2019)

Jill B Blasius said:


> I've never used palm. I make bars just as hard using firm butters or more CO.
> 
> Just my personal preference. My customers have to suffer, I guess!


More CO may make a hard bar but makes a very soluble bar that does not last as long, plus more stripping. Hard butters do make nice hard bars but up the cost considerably to make the batch


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## Lin19687 (Feb 5, 2019)

I don't use the CO because many have issues with it, itchy, dry.  I am one of them too.  Too high a PKO can do that as well.
Butters like CB can make a bar crack and crumble at higher amounts


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## gloopygloop (Feb 5, 2019)

CO @ no more than 10% I find works fine otherwise I too itch and shed dandruffy skin, even so needs to be backed up with lovely butters and goodies.


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