# Does anybody here promote CP soap as shampoo?



## Auxotroph (Oct 28, 2019)

If so, what makes you think that skin soap is suitable for the hair, and also, if soap was in fact suitable for hair, then why do they make shampoo?

Just trying to understand the logic of why people think that saponified oil is good for the hair.


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## artemis (Oct 28, 2019)

There are so many threads and posts on this. Have you tried searching the forum for "shampoo bars"?


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## shunt2011 (Oct 28, 2019)

Here's a couple

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/coconut-oil-free-shampoo.76812/#post-793530
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bars.75754/


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## Auxotroph (Oct 28, 2019)

all that stuff is just cold press soap. What makes you think that cold press soap is good for the hair?
I have read all the threads and still can't see the logic in why you would call body soap shampoo.
Is it very wise to retain hundreds of threads claiming cp soap to be shampoo?
I have seen people selling this stuff at markets.


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## IrishLass (Oct 28, 2019)

Lye-based soaps as shampoo used to be promoted and/or extolled by many here, and although some still do extol it, more and more over the years I've seen that many of the folks that used to extol it no longer do so (and strongly recommend against it) because they began to experience damage to their hair after long-term use.....some damage even so severe that certain folks had to drastically cut most of their hair off and go back to using regular shampoo. 

A lot of the testimonies follow the same pattern.....when they first started using it, their hair seemed to thrive with it for a time......until it no longer thrived and things started turning ugly.  

I tried using lye-based soap as shampoo once for a short amount of time- maybe a week, or so- along with an acidic rinse. Although I liked how it seemed to make my hair look thicker (I have fine hair) I decided to stop because I absolutely hated how it made my hair feel and look otherwise.....like a mass of coarse, dry straw.  


IrishLass


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## dixiedragon (Oct 28, 2019)

Why do you ask? To me, your tone reads that you are looking for an argument. 

I think the general consensus here is that soap (meaning actual saponified oils), is not good for hair, _especially _for long hair. If you have very short hair, I don't think it matters much. 

As far as hair care goes, some people really battle with scalp help vs hair health. I think some people with eczema, for example, find that CP soap is better for the scalp but not good for the hair. I find that I need to rotate between a dandruff shampoo and a non-dandruff shampoo. My hair is pretty long - past my shoulder blades - and I've gotten to the point where I wash it every 3-4 days and condition the heck out of it.


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## shunt2011 (Oct 28, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> all that stuff is just cold press soap. What makes you think that cold press soap is good for the hair?
> 
> I have read all the threads and still can't see the logic in why you would call body soap shampoo.
> 
> ...


It’s Cold Processed Soap.  And there are many who tout how wonderful their CP soap is for their and others hair.  However, there are many of us who tried and had it ruin our hair to the point it was cut short.  
So, it comes down to yes, some can use it but many cannot. It’s a personal decision of someone chooses to try it. 
I do not suggest or recommend anyone uses CP soap on their hair and Advise my customers of this as well. I’ve had many ask and explain why not.


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## Auxotroph (Oct 28, 2019)

It just goes to show how much mis information there is on the internet about soap making.
Using the internet to base ideas around cp soap making is not advisable.
This shook me up a bit, as when I went around the markets looking at soap this weekend and found most of them were selling cp soap as shampoo.
I asked one lady what differentiates her soap from her shampoo bars. She told me her shampoo bars had Castor oil in them. I then asked her if her soap sells in salons, she said no.


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## Obsidian (Oct 28, 2019)

I think many people who use or sell lye shampoo bars are under the impression that its more natural therefore, better then commercial shampoos.

I was one who used shampoo bars, for quite a long time actually before they destroyed my hair.
They were great for my scalp. My skin issues cleared up and I was happy to keep using them even though my hair didn't look or feel that great. It all breaking off was the last straw.

As far as I know, only one person here uses lye shampoo with good results. She is one of the few and far between who can without damage.


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## jentlesoaps (Oct 28, 2019)

I have only made one natural soap in 30 years that I use as a clarifier (not regular use) when the build up from commercial shampoos gets too much I do indeed enjoy using it . It's not a bar soap nor is it made with NaOH. In addition I use either a high quality leave in conditioner and/or use a vinegar spritz immediately after cleansing. Of course I also enjoy using LUSH's BIG shampoo (lots of sodium in that one!). My hair can handle the alkalinity (very long hair).  My hair is virgin and untreated (also probably another reason why I can use a high ph cleanser on my hair).  If you  use a hair drier or other heat tool or chemical treated hair, high pH cleansers will likely ruin your hair in combination with a CP shampoo. Any harsh environmental factor increases the likelihood of damage. If you want to market a shampoo for selling I'd recommend learning how to formulate a proper synthetic detergent bar (syndet) or liquid shampoo.

Yes, there are a lot of soap makers out there toting that castor oil makes a good shampoo bar. It doesn't mean it works for everyone. This formulation advice has been around for at least 30 years that I know of. They really are not the best cleansers. Some will even leave your hair feeling greasy (too high of a superfat). Again, look to syndets for a better product.


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## Bladesmith (Oct 28, 2019)

I'm a guy who has a very short haircut. I didn't initially intend to use my bar soap for my hair but I started when I ran out of shampoo. When I tried shampoo again, it made my head really itchy. I've been using bar soap now for over 6 months on my head. 

I will continue until I notice some ill effects. So far, I much prefer it to shampoo but, like I said, I know it's not the best thing for hair.

Also, I don't sell soap and definitely don't sell soap as a hair product. When friends and family ask me about using my soap for their head, I tell them it's not a great idea and they can try it at their own risk.


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 29, 2019)

My friend in Tauranga told me how she was using a lye based soap as shampoo, and I advised her against it, after what i had read on here.  She went back to her naturopath ( who makes the soap) who claimed it was perfectly safe and natural, and "pH balanced" and although I tried, I could not convince her to take my word over her naturopath's.  I only hope that she doesn't get a year or two down the track and have her hair fall out.

You can still make a synthetic detergent shampoo bar - like they sell at Lush for example - and whilst you can't really claim it is 'natural', at least you can get rid of the plastic bottles.


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## Dawni (Oct 29, 2019)

I have an uncle who, for the last 20+ years or so, has never bought liquid shampoo nor any syndet shampoo bar... He uses whatever soap he uses on his body, and is never picky. Sometimes it's lye based CP soap, sometimes it's a syndet soap, sometimes it's one of those hybrid ones.

His hair is always cut close to his head, is thick n curly but is always soft. He's never had a dandruff problem and his scalp never gets that weird stink even after sweating all day (he works on his n my mom's farm).

All that being said..... What works for him does not work for me, does not work for his wife n daughters but does work for his son. Which means...... What works for them may not work for a lot of other people out there. So, to each his own, I say.


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## SoaperForLife (Oct 29, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> I tried using lye-based soap as shampoo once for a short amount of time- maybe a week, or so- along with an acidic rinse. Although I liked how it seemed to make my hair look thicker (I have fine hair) I decided to stop because I absolutely hated how it made my hair feel and look otherwise.....like a mass of coarse, dry straw


I made and sold cp shampoo bars for a while (a very long time ago).  I also used them.  My experience was that there was a long period of adjustment where you had to use a vinegar rinse or your hair would feel like yuck.  Then I found that I didn't need to wash my hair every day anymore and I really liked that!  I stopped using them when my hair started getting thinner - I don't know if it was because of the shampoo bar or if it was because I was in my late 50's at that point.  I tend to think it had more to do with my age since my hair is still thinner.  Earlier this year I decided to try one of the Lush shampoo bars (which in actuality are probably just as bad as CP shampoo bars due to their high pH).  Now I make and sell syndet shampoo bars and I will probably never go back to liquid shampoo.


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## dixiedragon (Oct 29, 2019)

I love the LUSH syndet shampoo bars. I was looking for some on Etsy in some different scents, but most of the shampoo bars on Etsy are soap, and since most Etsy sellers aren't marketing to soapers specitically, nobody appears to label their bars syndet in the description. I have to open each entry and read the ingredients. I gave up and just buy LUSH.


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## lucycat (Oct 29, 2019)

I order from Get Lathered.  (Etsy & her own shop).   I like her syndet shampoo bars but absolutely love her conditioner bars.   I purchased first to decide if I wanted to learn to make.   I really liked her shampoo bar when I started using it a few years ago.  I am not as fond today since my hair is much coarser now with more grey.   Her conditioner bars lasts so long that I finally decided I was just better off buying hers.


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## Cereal (Oct 29, 2019)

I’ve been selling liquid and bar soap at local markets for a few months now. Every single day at least two people ask if I sell shampoo bars, and then most times we get into a friendly discussion about soap versus shampoo/synthetic surfectants (this usually involves me explaining basic soap chemistry stuff to people but not always). Many people just don’t know the difference between soap ans other cleansers...”but the shampoo bar I get from Lush is really nice” is a common refrain).

People really want them mostly down to marketing, I think. and some people who “make soap” don’t worry too much about details or chemistry. (I’ve spoken to many people who happily tell me they make soap too, which ends up usually meaning they melt soap, or add fragrance to a commercial liquid soap base.)

I always explain how soap is not really the thing for hair (or dishwashing liquid) which is why I make neither. And that they would probably need an acid rinse, and might damage their hair. They mostly still want to buy it.

I’m *really* close to just giving in and making some*, since it will sell really well, even with my explanation that they probably shouldn’t use it in the first place.

*(which would involve high superfat, citric acid, and lots of castor oil...as far as I can tell, pretty much all one can do to still not even really make shampoo.)


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## Obsidian (Oct 29, 2019)

@dixiedragon, ScenterSquare on etsy sells syndet bars and pretty good conditioner bars.
Sometimes she even has a diy syndet kit so you can make your own bars.


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 29, 2019)

Cereal said:


> I’ve been selling liquid and bar soap at local markets for a few months now. Every single day at least two people ask if I sell shampoo bars, and then most times we get into a friendly discussion about soap versus shampoo/synthetic surfectants (this usually involves me explaining basic soap chemistry stuff to people but not always). Many people just don’t know the difference between soap ans other cleansers...”but the shampoo bar I get from Lush is really nice” is a common refrain).
> 
> People really want them mostly down to marketing, I think. and some people who “make soap” don’t worry too much about details or chemistry. (I’ve spoken to many people who happily tell me they make soap too, which ends up usually meaning they melt soap, or add fragrance to a commercial liquid soap base.)
> 
> ...


I hear you!  This happens all the time - I try to explain the difference to people, because they all ask if I make a shampoo bar.  You have to make your explanation simple and concise otherwise you can see their eyes glazing over as you speak.  I usually start with the fact that Lush shampoos bars are syndet - not lye based, and that the benefit to using them is that you don't waste plastic bottles.  I then state that it's best not to use a lye based product on your hair because of the high pH. Some get it - some don't. I must admit, when i started soaping and asking these same questions myself, it took a while for it to sink in!


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## Kiti Williams (Oct 29, 2019)

I am on the other side of this topic.  I have been using a shampoo (lye based) bar for over 2 years now.  My hair was uber think until I got to 50 years old, then my hair thinned out a bit.  My hair is down past my waist and is not suffering from the shampoo bar.  No straw ends, no damaged hair.  All the people who have tested my soaps have had zero bad effects, these people have been my trial group for 1.5 years.


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## dixiedragon (Oct 29, 2019)

Kiti Williams said:


> I am on the other side of this topic.  I have been using a shampoo (lye based) bar for over 2 years now.  My hair was uber think until I got to 50 years old, then my hair thinned out a bit.  My hair is down past my waist and is not suffering from the shampoo bar.  No straw ends, no damaged hair.  All the people who have tested my soaps have had zero bad effects, these people have been my trial group for 1.5 years.



I wish somebody would scientifically study this. Is it your recipe? The local water? A combination? Magical hair fairy? I feel like a year is long enough that bad effects would have showed up by now!


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## Obsidian (Oct 29, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> I wish somebody would scientifically study this. Is it your recipe? The local water? A combination? Magical hair fairy? I feel like a year is long enough that bad effects would have showed up by now!



Idk, took 2 years for damage to show up on me. I do have hard water and was never able to completely get rid of the residue.
I really wanted soap to work for me. Its the only thing that really helped my scabby, sore scalp.

There are people who simply can use lye soap. I was a member of a long hair forum for a few years. Some of the members have used lye soap for 20+ years and have beautiful knee length hair.

A lot use chargrin valley soap but I found it so coconut heavy that I can't even use it on my body. It did seem to have less build up.


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## bookreader451 (Oct 29, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I have an uncle who, for the last 20+ years or so, has never bought liquid shampoo nor any syndet shampoo bar... He uses whatever soap he uses on his body, and is never picky. Sometimes it's lye based CP soap, sometimes it's a syndet soap, sometimes it's one of those hybrid ones.
> 
> His hair is always cut close to his head, is thick n curly but is always soft. He's never had a dandruff problem and his scalp never gets that weird stink even after sweating all day (he works on his n my mom's farm).
> 
> All that being said..... What works for him does not work for me, does not work for his wife n daughters but does work for his son. Which means...... What works for them may not work for a lot of other people out there. So, to each his own, I say.


My husband never uses shampoo for his hair.  What hair he has left he washes with the same soap he is using for his body.  His hair is not brittle or dry.  I however, only use soap on my hair when I go camping and forget to throw in the shampoo.


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## Michele50 (Oct 29, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> If so, what makes you think that skin soap is suitable for the hair, and also, if soap was in fact suitable for hair, then why do they make shampoo?
> 
> Just trying to understand the logic of why people think that saponified oil is good for the hair.




This is only '*my*' opinion but syndet and combars--commercial cleansers or '_soap_' *loosely *used--are relatively new in terms of washing the body of oily, sweaty dirt and grim. Traditional soap (*REAL *soap) has been used for thousands of years--as far back as 2800 B.C. in ancient Babylon. Even though commercial 'soap' (*loosely *speaking) has taken off (bar form 1st and then in liquid form) and has taken over sales of traditional (real) soap, that doesn't make it better suited for skin. IMHO, it does not. Detergents were created as a response to a shortage of fats to make soap (Germany) during WWI.   http://www.detergentsandsoaps.com/detergents-history.html  "By the year 1953, the sale of detergents in US had surpassed those of soap. During that time, the detergents have all but replaced soap-based products that were used for laundering, dishwashing and household cleaning. Alone or in combination with soaps, the use of detergents started in many of the bars and liquids used for personal cleaning."

Before the invention of detergents, soap was used for laundry, body, etc. This relatively new thing (detergent) is sold as body cleansers AND shampoo but they do such a great job at cleaning oils that they rob me of my natural oils and dry me out. They lather better in various conditions (pH and heavy water) where soap struggles/cannot but I'd rather use soap, thank you.

Not meaning this to be snotty....but....., "If traditional soap were suitable for skin, why did they create detergent bars for cleaning the skin?"

We (this side of 1953) aren't as familiar with traditional soap and the blessing it is to skin unless we make it or have purchased *quality *real soap. We have nothing to compare it with since we've grown up using syndet / combars. My husband couldn't quit commenting on the difference between my handmade soap and the storebought stuff--he threw all of his storebought soaps away once he used my first soap twice.

My friends, some of them, started making HP soap after receiving soap as gifts from me, not ever wanting to return to drying storebought stuff themselves.

I almost hesitate to state but I have used my shampoo bars for 3 years and those I've gifted them to like them better than shampoo from stores. I make my own hair conditioner with a pH of 5 so I use that after washing as shampoo bars are higher than hair's natural pH (lower even than our skin's pH). Hair's pH *must *be brought back down to its natural pH or very close to 5 or it leaves hair vulnerable to damage. Hair's cuticles become raised when hair comes into contact with higher pH and they cannot close on their own, thus the conditioner with a pH of 5. My cosmetologist daughter in law, after gifting my son beer shampoo bars for his 24" beard, and after being the only one who touches my hair for over 4 years told me that if she didn't color her hair frequently for her job (uses temporary color) she wouldn't be afraid of my shampoo bars. She's seen my hair over the course of using both shampoo (storebought) and mine (handmade) and couldn't believe my colors aren't being washed out, especially the reds I had her put in a couple of years ago. I had highlights, lowlights, red and chocolate brown. I don't often color my hair but I went for 4 colors when she did it last. If I'm out of my conditioner, I use an ACV/water rinse until I make more. I do love my conditioner. My son (married to the cosmetologist) told me that in using only the beer shampoo bar and my hair conditioner he noticed improvements in the condition of his beard; it _was _dry and lifeless due to the extreme length.

I know many caution against shampoo bars due to the pH. Oh, one more thing, I have a cousin who has very oily hair and has seen the same hairdresser (she called her) for decades. Her stylest asked her what she was doing differently because her hair looked much better, was growing faster and seemed in better shape. My cousin told her about my gifting her shampoo and she was able to go a few days in between washes when (since we were kids) have had to wash it daily. That's detergents for you--rob our skin (hair) of natural oils so the skin (hair) is in overdrive trying to keep up with production so it gets greasy----->overproduces to keep up with the detergent wiping out the natural oils.

I guess the cat's out of the bag .......... I make and use shampoo bars 



Kiti Williams said:


> I am on the other side of this topic.  I have been using a shampoo (lye based) bar for over 2 years now.  My hair was uber think until I got to 50 years old, then my hair thinned out a bit.  My hair is down past my waist and is not suffering from the shampoo bar.  No straw ends, no damaged hair.  All the people who have tested my soaps have had zero bad effects, these people have been my trial group for 1.5 years.


I'm glad I'm not the only one and I've not really wanted to state that I make and use them because I understand why others caution against the use of them. Over the years and many soap gifts, my daughter in law is a good person to go to for hair care. I picked her brain just a few months ago and asked her some very pointed questions. Her answers were spot on with what I had concluded with all the research I've done before making them and continue to read and research. While I make and use them, that doesn't mean others (friends and family) will have good success with them. I had been holding my tongue regarding the making and useage of them......now cat's out of the bag.


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## Obsidian (Oct 29, 2019)

@Michele50 @Kiti Williams 

So, I'm going to ask if anyone who has been using soap bars is willing to share their recipe?
I'd really like to compare with what recipes I've used. It would be great if I could find something to use when my scalp acts up.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 29, 2019)

Obsidian said:


> So, I'm going to ask if anyone who has been using soap bars is willing to share their recipe? I'd really like to compare with what recipes I've used. It would be great if I could find something to use when my scalp acts up.


Whether it's a lye-based bar or liquid shampoo, vs. syndet bar or shampoo, what matters is what works for you. If you have a bar soap that your skin likes, try it on your hair. The key to success, to my mind at least, is knowing how to use a lye-based shampoo.

Be aware that there's an adjustment period due to build up of previous hair products. It's important to rinse thoroughly with increasingly cool water until it's as cold as you can stand it to get all the soap residue out. An ACV rinse helps with that as well as restoring the acid mantel of the scalp.

Here are some helpful links to learn more:

*Everything About Shampoo Bars*

*Why Use A Natural Shampoo Bar?*

*Shampoo Bar Residue*

*Herbal Rinses for Shampoo Bars*

_*J R Liggett's FAQ's*_

_*OILS FOR HAIR & SCALP*_

_*7 OILS THAT PENETRATE THE HAIR & SHAFT*_

*ETHNIC HAIR*

Personally, I've been making (15 years) and using (14 years) and selling lye-based bars and liquid shampoo to wholesale customers (10 years) for a long time without any negative feedback at all. I truly feel sorry for those members whose experience has been otherwise. I wish I knew the answer, but I don't. 

When I first joined SMF two  years ago, discussing this subject was forbidden. I'm forever grateful that it is no longer so. Like Matt (the OP) indicated in his posts, there's  widespread interest amongst the soapmaking community in making, using, and selling soap as shampoo. It's helpful to let both sides of the issue to speak up without fear of being criticized for their point of view, based on their knowledge and experience.


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## Arimara (Oct 29, 2019)

@dixiedragon  It matters. I tried one of my bars on my hair in a pinch as I did not have shampoo. Mid-week later, I needed to use some Shea Moisture deep conditioning mask on my hair to combat that dryness. My hair a teeny baby afro then.


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## Auxotroph (Oct 30, 2019)

Michele50 said:


> This is only '*my*' opinion but syndet and combars--commercial cleansers or '_soap_' *loosely *used--are relatively new in terms of washing the body of oily, sweaty dirt and grim. Traditional soap (*REAL *soap) has been used for thousands of years--as far back as 2800 B.C. in ancient Babylon. Even though commercial 'soap' (*loosely *speaking) has taken off (bar form 1st and then in liquid form) and has taken over sales of traditional (real) soap, that doesn't make it better suited for skin. IMHO, it does not. Detergents were created as a response to a shortage of fats to make soap (Germany) during WWI.   http://www.detergentsandsoaps.com/detergents-history.html  "By the year 1953, the sale of detergents in US had surpassed those of soap. During that time, the detergents have all but replaced soap-based products that were used for laundering, dishwashing and household cleaning. Alone or in combination with soaps, the use of detergents started in many of the bars and liquids used for personal cleaning."
> 
> Before the invention of detergents, soap was used for laundry, body, etc. This relatively new thing (detergent) is sold as body cleansers AND shampoo but they do such a great job at cleaning oils that they rob me of my natural oils and dry me out. They lather better in various conditions (pH and heavy water) where soap struggles/cannot but I'd rather use soap, thank you.
> 
> ...


Do you know of any hair salons using these kinds of shampoo bars?


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 30, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> Do you know of any hair salons using these kinds of shampoo bars?


I don't think they would because they are actually more expensive than regular shampoo.


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## SoaperForLife (Oct 30, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> I gave up and just buy LUSH.


You'd be better off finding something on Etsy.... IMHO other makers add far better ingredients to their bars - Lush doesn't even work to balance the pH of theirs.


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## Gaisy59 (Oct 30, 2019)

SoaperForLife said:


> You'd be better off finding something on Etsy.... IMHO other makers add far better ingredients to their bars - Lush doesn't even work to balance the pH of theirs.



I agree. I wanted to like Lush because everybody I know was so thrilled with their products. Then I joined Swift Craft Monkey and I am now in the process of formulating my own syndet shampoo bar which will be ph balanced for hair. From what I have been reading hair has a ph of about 5-7. And I understand that some people can use soap for their hair but what I am seeing is all the extras that they end up having to do in order to rinse off the product and then close the cuticle.  Too much work for me lol.


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## Kiti Williams (Oct 30, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> I wish somebody would scientifically study this. Is it your recipe? The local water? A combination? Magical hair fairy? I feel like a year is long enough that bad effects would have showed up by now!




  I have a whole house water softener unit, so my water is very pure.  I have used limpness paper on it and it shows no visible chemical impurities.  The soap is my own recipe, OO, CO, and AO, with tea tree and vit. E added in after trace.  I think maybe having good water is the key for a shampoo bar.  I would have to go back in my posts to a small FB group to get the actual date I started using my soap.  My daughter has my very thick (younger self) hair as well.  She has her hair layered so she can pull it into a pony tail without breaking the hair bands.

I'm glad I'm not the only one and I've not really wanted to state that I make and use them because I understand why others caution against the use of them. Over the years and many soap gifts, my daughter in law is a good person to go to for hair care. I picked her brain just a few months ago and asked her some very pointed questions. Her answers were spot on with what I had concluded with all the research I've done before making them and continue to read and research. While I make and use them, that doesn't mean others (friends and family) will have good success with them. I had been holding my tongue regarding the making and useage of them......now cat's out of the bag.
[/QUOTE]

  I was blasted by a few members here when I first joined.  I first test my soaps on my family, they have agreed to let me know how a recipe  works out.  Then I have a test group who will tell me how the soap works out for them.  Only then will I sell/offer my soaps to the public.  I started out just making my shampoo bars for my own use.  The commercial stuff left me all greasy and dandruffy.  1 use of the shampoo bar got rid of the dandruff, and the greasy feel after washing was gone.  Yes, I did have to wash my hair every day for about 2 weeks before my scalp got the message that it didn't need to over supply oils.  I can go as long as 4 days between washing in winter.  

  I make a beard soap that is currently being tested by 16 men at my seasonal work.  3 are so impressed they wanted a full bar.  I think shampoo bars, and the soaps we make here, are a finer quality than my grandmother's lard and lye soap.

My shampoo bar recipe is as follows: 15 oz Avocado oil, 15 oz Coconut oil, 18 oz Olive oil.  My lye is 6.7 oz dissolved in 14 oz tap water with sea salt added in prior.  (I set my water to age after I have added the Sea salt.  1 T to a gallon of water)  I mix the oils, add in the lye solution when both are around 135 degrees.  I blend to thin trace add in 20 drops of Vit. E oil and 10 drops of Tea Tree oil.  mix well, and you can put in the scent of your choice.  I add just enough to smell it, but not so much as to knock you over.  Pour into molds and let it all get to know itself.  I pop them out at approx. 24 hours and set them to age for 4 weeks.

  The bar gives a big luscious, tons of creamy lather, so I usually do 4 swipes on my head and then lather up.  It yields approx 48 ozs of shampoo, 12 bares worth.


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## Auxotroph (Oct 30, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I don't think they would because they are actually more expensive than regular shampoo.



Are you sure. My salon makes its own shampoo butter and they sell it at 50$ for a small tin.



Kiti Williams said:


> My shampoo bar recipe is as follows: 15 oz Avocado oil, 15 oz Coconut oil, 18 oz Olive oil.  My lye is 6.7 oz dissolved in 14 oz tap water with sea salt added in prior.  (I set my water to age after I have added the Sea salt.  1 T to a gallon of water)  I mix the oils, add in the lye solution when both are around 135 degrees.  I blend to thin trace add in 20 drops of Vit. E oil and 10 drops of Tea Tree oil.  mix well, and you can put in the scent of your choice.  I add just enough to smell it, but not so much as to knock you over.  Pour into molds and let it all get to know itself.  I pop them out at approx. 24 hours and set them to age for 4 weeks.
> 
> The bar gives a big luscious, tons of creamy lather, so I usually do 4 swipes on my head and then lather up.  It yields approx 48 ozs of shampoo, 12 bares worth.



That sounds like plain old CP soap to me. 

Do you clean your body with your 'shampoo' before you wash your hair?


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 30, 2019)

@Auxotroph 
Yes that's what I'm saying - I doubt they would waste $50 shampoo for a standard wash and blow-dry.  They usually use their cheapest bulk-buy shampoo for that (my sister is a hairdresser).  Have a sneak peek at their shampoo butter would you and see what the ingredients are?  I am interested.

Regarding @Kiti Williams CP soap recipe, yes - she is in the camp of 'I use it and it works well' - which answers the question in your opening post.  Hers is essentially a soap bar that she uses as shampoo.

Other Shampoo Bars as are sold in Lush are actually a solid shampoo ( not CP soap) made of synthetic detergents.


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## MGM (Oct 30, 2019)

Just goes to show that we're all different and resilient in different ways....a few years ago, I decided to do "no poo" (just baking soda and ACV), but the day I started, I forgot to bring those into the shower, so I just did "no nothing"---for 6 months. Just water and rubbing. My hair was different (heavier, shinier) but wasn't bad and didn't smell bad. Went back to commercial shampoo just to try it, and it was fine. Experiment done. My hair is much longer now, strangely wavy/curly with age (was stick-straight until about a year ago...only symptom of menopause so far), and I've been losing hair since the birth of my youngest 10 years ago. Everyone else thinks my hair is thick, but they don't see the bottom of the shower! Yikes! Anyway, point is....with longer hair to damage and less of it everyday, I'm not going to risk it with soap.  Some weeks, I don't even use shampoo, just do conditioner only.


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## Auxotroph (Oct 30, 2019)

@Auxotroph
Yes that's what I'm saying - I doubt they would waste $50 shampoo for a standard wash and blow-dry.  They usually use their cheapest bulk-buy shampoo for that (my sister is a hairdresser).  Have a sneak peek at their shampoo butter would you and see what the ingredients are?  I am interested.

Regarding @Kiti Williams CP soap recipe, yes - she is in the camp of 'I use it and it works well' - which answers the question in your opening post.  Hers is essentially a soap bar that she uses as shampoo.

Other Shampoo Bars as are sold in Lush are actually a solid shampoo ( not CP soap) made of synthetic detergents.[/QUOTE]

They would shoot me if I told you the recipe. But it is not sydnet nor a bar. We are just now trying to formulate it so that it is stable in the freezer, that way it can be 100% plastic free in the salon. They don't use cheap bulk shampoo.

It is pretty cutting edge the shampoo butter.

It is still a problem, there is a reason that zero hair salons use cp soap for hair. If is is actually good for your hair, they would be using it and there are formulations that are non synthetic that you can use for hair that works for everybody that won't possibly damage your hair.

Imagine how it would make you feel if you sold or gave somebody a cp soap shampoo bar and it destroyed their hair. I guess maybe people can live with that? I know I for sure couldn't.


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 30, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> @Auxotroph
> 
> 
> Imagine how it would make you feel if you sold or gave somebody a cp soap shampoo bar and it destroyed their hair. I guess maybe people can live with that? I know I for sure couldn't.


I know - that's why i don't promote the use of CP as a shampoo.  But as you say, some people do, and it scares the bejeezuz out of me that the average consumer wanders blindly in to a potential minefield.  However, if people are making it and using it themselves and prefer it - well that's their own call.


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## Auxotroph (Oct 30, 2019)

Also, why spend all that time making cp soap for a shampoo, when you can make a high end shampoo for the same supply cost that is ready to use instantly, is worth 5 times more, and will make your hair better than any cp soap ever will?


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 30, 2019)

Kiti Williams said:


> My shampoo bar recipe is as follows: ...






 Kiti, how very generous of you to share!

_*@MGM*_ You might be interested in trying this unique product from Elements Bath & Body. It is very gentle and also cleansing using very little. A bit too conditioning for my hair... took forever to rinse clean.  I bought some due to the beneficial extracts it contains... thinking I might try to dupe it without all the chemicals.

_*Gentle 2-in-1 Cleansing Conditioner*_

@Auxotroph Re Post #40 TIP: To reply to someone's post, look in the lower right corner. Click on the "Reply" button to capture the quote. Type your response below the quote. 

HTH (Hope This Helps)


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## Michele50 (Oct 31, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> Do you know of any hair salons using these kinds of shampoo bars?


I don't @Auxotroph but then I'm REALLY picky as to who messes with my hair (LOL). In the past 28 years I've only had 2 people trim, perm or color my hair. About 4 -5 years ago I switched to my daughter in law who is a cosmetologist and a dang GREAT one. About 2 years ago I had her put 4 colors in my waist-length hair and I was amazed how all were so evenly spaced. Took her forever but we did it at her home so we weren't time-limited. Oh, I did also have her cut several inches off the length as well and layer it. That was HUGE for me, I'm always hesitant to get any more than an inch or so removed. Since I don't use a multi-person salon and the only other person I used during 28-30 years was a local hairdresser who owned her own small shop I don't know if there are any around where I live......sorry.



Auxotroph said:


> That sounds like plain old CP soap to me.
> 
> Do you clean your body with your 'shampoo' before you wash your hair?



This was too long for one post….I hope there isn’t a rule against breaking it into parts. If so, I am so sorry and won’t do it again.
(Pt 1)
I do not use my shampoo bars that I make via HP for my body, though I could.....it's soap. I realize the biggest problem with 'real' soap (lye + oils and, of course, a liquid to create the lye solution) is that the pH is way too high for hair. Hair, from my exhaustive research, is actually even lower on the pH scale than skin and scalp. It's something like 4.7, if I remember correctly. This is where synthetic detergents work and 'real' soap cannot: soap cannot lather in a low pH because the chemical reaction would break if its pH was to be lowered more than something like 8.5 (or maybe it is a pH of 8). I know because I made my own liquid soap base, diluted it to create my liquid soap and then purposely broke my soap--broke the saponification--and I was left an oily yucky looking thing at floating on the surface of lye water. I dissolved citric acid in water and kept adding it in small amounts and checked the pH and then put the lid on the bottle and gave it a shake to see the bubbles. After bubbles were gone I repeated the process. The bubbles lessen as the pH is lowered until no bubbles and the chemical process is reversed and renders the soap a lye-skin burning mess. I knew that lowering real soap did this but I'm a kid a heart and had to see it for myself just to do it.........it was actually fun to see. Misplaced my notes I made on it but it's still fresh in my mind as far as lower the pH and rob the soap of lather. So, yes, syndet are lower in pH and thus we have liquid shampoo and even syndet shampoo bars that are what most might say are 'real' shampoo and not CP or HP soap. I, for one,--choose not to believe it--have better hair now than I did b/4 and my hair wasn't bad b/4 three years ago when I decided to make solid shampoo for myself. 


I cannot use syndet soap on my hands and quite at the age of 15 and went to shampoo for hand washing while at home. All my life, until I made my own soap, I have had issues with my hands. The problem was that my fingers would become so severely dry and crack. Once the cracks became bad enough they'd bleed. One gentle bump or tap of a finger against anything (seems like even air) and the split would widen and lengthen and bleed all over again. I was miserable and it was awfully painful. Using shampoo was only a little better than using bar soap/liquid soap. Again, I am loosely using the word soap when referring to commercial soap only because many mistakingly call it soap; it is not and doesn't fit the FDA's definition of soap. I could avoid bar soap if I were home but not when in school or other places that had bars or the liquid soap. 


I'm 58.5 years old now and have been making soap for about 3.5 years. It was only after doing away with all syndet hand soap (like at restaurants, visiting family and friends, camping, etc) that I no longer suffer with cracked and bleeding fingers. It seemed like all of a sudden my hand/finger issues left and never returned. Well, that's not true.....there were 2 times I forgot my soap while visiting our son and his family. Within 3 days my skin began to feel like sandpaper, 2 more days and small fissures in the skin appeared and by the time we were to leave for home (8 or 9 days there) my fingers had already shown to be cracking...almost to their bleeding stage but thankfully hadn't reached that point yet. You better believe I have never forgotten my soap ever again. In fact I have bars tucked away in each of the bathrooms and in my daughter in law's kitchen. They all use liquid soap since it's easier for the kids to dispense and use--easier for them as well. I cannot use the stuff and I now understand why--detergent isn't meant for skin.....or at least not my skin. 


Hair is a whole other creature than skin and I fully understand why that is--pH and the cuticle lifting when it's pH is too high. Cuticles are what protects the fibers that make our hair strong. The layers of cuticles keep the bonds below the cuticles strong and unbroken. Perms and hair colors permanently break these bonds and that is, after all, what allows hair to be curled and the curl to stay. The permanent breaking of these bonds enables the color to be deposited inside and below the cuticle layers so that the color doesn't wash out after a few washings. What is shocking to my cosmetologist daughter in law is that my reds were still in my hair after 2 years. From what I understand, the size of a red dye molecule is larger than other color molecules. Because of this, it doesn't penetrate as deeply into the cortex like the other colors can, rendering it more vulnerable to fading.  When I had my hair cut and layered in July, my daughter in law looked over my hair and then stated, you really don't have many splits ends at all in 7 months.


The last time it was trimmed was 7 months prior; I never have gotten my hair trimmed as often as suggested, twice to 3 times a year.


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## Michele50 (Oct 31, 2019)

(Pt 2)

Then she stated how surprised she was that my reds were still there because she knows I use nothing but my lye-based shampoo bars. She knows that because her husband, my oldest son, has a 24" beard (or longer) and uses my shampoo bars and she's seen the improvements to what once was lifeless hair. I also gift him my hair conditioner and warned him, like I really didn't need to given his wife's profession, anyway, I explained the must for lowering the pH via conditioner (or ACV/water rinse) if he chose to use my shampoo bars. 


The way I look at it, the pH of hair coloring (pH of 10-11), perms (pH from 8-9.5 BUT all three bonds are broken within the cortex to create a new curly shape and then a somewhat reverse is done to establish new disulfide bonds), & chemical straighteners (also MUST break all three bonds ) are all much more alkaline than my shampoo bars that are made with 100% ACV for water or 50% reduced beer and 50% ACV so generally are around 8.75ish.  Those chemicals are on hair for much longer than what it takes for me to wash and rinse my hair. I always lower the cuticle layer of my hair with my conditioner that has a 5 to 5.5 pH. I do other things to prevent normal day-to-day damage:


Water (showering, raining on us, humidity in the air) itself breaks the Hydrogen bonds in hair (though it be temporary) because water chemically is 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom, thereby it can plug itself into the hair's Hydrogen bonds. This is whey you can wrap a curler around wet hair and once dry it stays curled (for a time that is). The same goes for heat, it too is able to break (temporarily) the Disulphide bonds in the hair and is what allows curling irons and straight irons to change (temporarily) hair's shape. This is why I never blow dry my hair, never use heat on it and never ever brush/comb it while it is wet. It's good that I need no fancy hairdos that weaken my hair. I wash it, wrap a soft towel around it briefly to allow it to soak up most the moisture and then let it air dry. I also pour cold water slowly over my head and hair once I've rinsed the conditioner out. It's probably an extra step that isn't necessary but I do all I can to keep my hair healthy.....and that means no detergents that rob not only my skin of its needed natural oils but it does I'm guessing it can do the same with the natural oils that keep hair conditioned. I can't see it not removing natural oils from the hair. Though it might be an unnecessary step to use cold water (which I HATE) at the end, I do it anyway. There's a reason for hair to be rinsed in cold water after coloring or perms. The hot water lifted cuticles (though temporary since it is a Hydrogen bond disruption/breakage). Cold water doesn't lift them and my tub of water is nice warm to almost hottish so that's why I finish with cold water poured upon my heard.....once my hair is returned to a 5-5.5 pH and very warm water is used via soaking my head in my bathwater, I sit and pour cold water over it just to end my routine.

I think more is involved that causes damage when using shampoo bars than just the solid shampoo, but that's my opinion I realize. I think we do much more to hair that damages it and then when shampoo bars are used and we don't understand the bonds within hair and how to protect the cuticles which are our hair's way of protecting the fibers and bonds that bring strength and stretch to our hair and we then can cause further damage to our hair.

About 6-10 months ago I conducted another experiment: I brushed my hair as I usually do after washing it, once it was completely dry. I started with a clean brush--no hair in it--and counted the hairs (yes, one by one) by removing them and keeping track of the number. A bit over 105ish; I did this 3 times/took 2 weeks. I then did the same again but brushed my hair after it dried some but was still damp, 3 times as befor. I always started with a clean brush (NO hair in it). Guess what?! Just as I had expected, with each I counted over 250 hairs.  It suffices to say, a wet scalp is like here in the county when the ground is so saturated with rain that we sometimes get for 7-10 days that huge trees just fall over on their sides because the weight of them cannot be held by the over-saturated soil.

Hair is a very complicated thing and going back centuries ago, all manner of things from shaving the head, not washing hair but using cones of perfume (worn 'on' the head), citric acid and then oils, the use of plants (like soapnuts) or in Ancient China--the use of Cedrela plant, or using dry ingredients like cornstarch and arrowroot mixed with EOs, to putting ash from burnt plants and so on and so forth, even ash being mixed with oils, Macassar oil was developed for hair which caused the need for anitmacassar to be invented (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimacassar). All through time something for hair was being used.......and yes, even lye soap....read below….well, the next post.

(Pt 3, final part)

"During the Middle Ages,….In some parts of Europe, though, it was advised that women mix burnt barley bread, salt, and bear fat together and put that on their hair…Some other women liked to make a tea with goat milk or water, and elm bark, willow root, and reed root and use that to wash their hair….Other hair-washing methods included vinegar, rosemary water, nettles, mint, thyme and several other herbs. During the Renaissance period, women in Italy washed their hair with lye soap, and then used bacon fat and licorice to condition their hair. During the 1700s and 1800s.....Most people washed their hair with lye soaps or water, and still went about their days greasing their hair up and pulling it back." https://historythings.com/people-use-shampoo/ Say it ain't so!! Lye soap!???!

Same site mentioned above and continuing: "During the Victorian Era......Washing hair with lye was still common, but a challenger appeared on the scene in the form of the humble egg. Now, about once a month (as was the recommended amount), women would crack eggs over their heads, work the gooey egg up into a lather in their hair, and then rinse it out.

Castille Soap was also a popular option, as was P&G’s “Ivory Soap”, which was first invented in 1859 by William Procter and James Gamble. “Macassar oil”, an oil made from coconut oil, palm oil, and oil from flowers called “ylang-ylang”, was used as a popular conditioner.

You see, lye soap isn't something new as far as a washing product for hair. And in case anyone is interested in all the reading material I found and read before making and using shampoo here ya go: bars: http://teachersinstitute.yale.edu/nationalcurriculum/units/2011/5/11.05.04.x.html
http://hairmomentum.com/hair-chemistry-101-quick-glance-hydrogen-bonding/
http://www.thehairgalleryuk.com/project/hair-bonds-what-why-and-how/
https://www.exploratorium.edu/exploring/hair/hair_4.html
https://themestizamuse.com/blog/comprehending-hair-bonds

This isn't actually all that I've read but its a good start at what I wanted to learn and in order to not ruin my hair or the hair of family members who ask for my shampoo bars. I had a really good neighbor ask for some and I also give my conditioner to those who receive my solid shampoo. She came back loving the results and asking for some for her sister. Both a bar and conditioner was given to her for her sister. I always give a brief (if anyone can believe I can be brief.....I have a bridge to sell) anyway, I give a warning about the pH of hair and the importance of returning it to it's low pH.



Auxotroph said:


> Also, why spend all that time making cp soap for a shampoo, when you can make a high end shampoo for the same supply cost that is ready to use instantly, is worth 5 times more, and will make your hair better than any cp soap ever will?


May I ask, what high-end shampoo are you speaking about that is ready to use instantly after making? Thanks.


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## Auxotroph (Oct 31, 2019)

Michele50 said:


> May I ask, what high-end shampoo are you speaking about that is ready to use instantly after making? Thanks.



100% natural shampoo butter.


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## dixiedragon (Oct 31, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> Also, why spend all that time making cp soap for a shampoo, when you can make a high end shampoo for the same supply cost that is ready to use instantly, is worth 5 times more, and will make your hair better than any cp soap ever will?


What shampoo recipe do you have that's the same supply cost? I haven't done the precise math, but the materials needed for a shampoo bar are substantially more expensive than the ingredients for CP soap. lye, lard, coconut and olive oil are fairly cheap. I think people like the idea of washing their hair with something more natural - and soapers like the idea of selling to that market. I like to charitably assume these soapers who sell soap as shampoo have shorter hair and don't realize what they are doing. also realize that most people aren't doing testing  over, say, a year. They use their shampoo bar for a month or two, it seems good, then they start selling.



Auxotroph said:


> 100% natural shampoo butter.


I am dubious. I know you don't want to give out the recipe - okay. But if it is lye + oils - it's soap.


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## Auxotroph (Oct 31, 2019)

This is the wrong forum for this topic. I is not solid, nor is it soap. Zero lye.

If you want to be initiative and at the top of the game, start making it.

As of right now there are zero recipes online for shampoo butter, that is why the market for it right now is endless.

But CP soap works best for your hair so why stop. I use it sometimes, if I don't have shampoo butter, but my shart hair hates it.


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 31, 2019)

I found this when i did a search for 'shampoo butter' - you are right there is nothing online for shampoo butter. ;-)
https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/shampoo-bars

So if we want to be ahead of our game, how can we start making it since you are the only one who has the recipe?  Do tell!


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## Auxotroph (Oct 31, 2019)

Just had a quick look online and there is a lot of commercially made shampoo butter but basically zero hand made natural stuff. 

I am sorry that I can't give you the formulation. 

If you can formulate a freezer stable shampoo butter, you will be likely to make a lot of money 

Big opportunitie for people here.


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## Obsidian (Oct 31, 2019)

I've never hear of shampoo butter? I assume its a detergent based creamy product?

I don't want your formula, just a basic description of it.


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 31, 2019)

Woot!  Look what I found! https://www.rusticart.in/what-is-rustic-art-shampoo-butter/


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## Obsidian (Oct 31, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Woot!  Look what I found! https://www.rusticart.in/what-is-rustic-art-shampoo-butter/



I just saw that. Doesn't look like it has any cleansers, maybe its just a glorified cleansing conditioner.

I'll stick to my commercial shampoo and syndet bars


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## Kiti Williams (Oct 31, 2019)

That sounds like plain old CP soap to me.

Do you clean your body with your 'shampoo' before you wash your hair?[/QUOTE]

  No, I have a body soap for my bod!


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## Auxotroph (Oct 31, 2019)

Obsidian said:


> I just saw that. Doesn't look like it has any cleansers, maybe its just a glorified cleansing conditioner.
> 
> I'll stick to my commercial shampoo and syndet bars



That is a good description of it. It is complicated. 

Conditioner. Don't get me started. Proper hair conditioner is probably likely one of the hardest of all body care products. It is miles out of my league at this stage. The hand made conditioner out there is not real conditioner.



Kiti Williams said:


> That sounds like plain old CP soap to me.
> 
> Do you clean your body with your 'shampoo' before you wash your hair?



  No, I have a body soap for my bod![/QUOTE]

What's the difference?


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## Michele50 (Oct 31, 2019)

@dixiedragon ,  you are correct about some wanting to *wash their hair with something more natural*; but it's not so much, for me anyway, that it is because I'm on the natural (must be n-a-t-u-r-al ingredients) bandwagon. My reason is that my lifetime severe hand issues disappeared without even trying to fix it by using 'real' soap and only 'real' soap on my hands day and night when I washed. Being 58.5 years old that's a long time to suffer from this problem. I then wanted to remove *detergent cleaners* for my butt-length hair as well. It returns when staying with family who use the liquid syndet handwash stuff. I know I had a terribly long segment above (too long to read) but I was shocked by the results regarding my hands and fingers. 

Some assume that commercial shampoos are all formatted for at least the scalp's pH (5.5) and possibly lower (3.67) for hair's pH. This is NOT SO. I found an interesting study: "In this work, we review the current literature about the mode of action of a low-pH shampoo regarding the hair shaft's health and analyze the pH of 123 shampoos of international brands....All shampoo pH values ranged from 3.5 to *9.0*." To me, if some commercial shampoo is at a 9 then using my 8.75 pH shampoo is better for two reasons: no detergents in mine and mine has a lower pH than that particular commercial brand. I knew the pH of the hair shaft was lower than the scalp couldn't remember the exact number; in my earlier long post, I put '4.6' but it's even lower than that.

I know shampoo bars are scary, even dangerous, in the eyes of most and their *concern *for others is what drives the constant warnings not to use or make and gift/sell them. My earlier posted list of sites (and *not *a complete list) that were read and digested is proof that 'some' people don't just flippantly make a product and use it with their eyes closed to the standard belief that is out there. I guess maybe many do but I've been called 'not normal' by my husband; "weird" was the word actually used and then he stated that it was said as a compliment. I've been called anal also by a federal auditor that audited our business records every other year. I'm aware that I approach most things differently but that just makes me a thorough person. I realize some shudder at the thought of giving solid shampoo to a relative only to have it damage their hair. There are many ways to damage hair (heated hair tools, chemicals, brushing when wet, poor nutrition, vitamin/nutrient deficiencies, etc) and many are part of an everyday routine. 



dixiedragon said:


> ".... and soapers like the idea of selling to that market......"


I *do not* sell any of my soap, so I probably don't fall under this, but........I do 'give them away.' Given to 1 sister who was already using them and from whom I found out that such a product existed, 1 daughter in law with just past shoulder-length hair, and 1 son with a beard that's 24" long. 



dixiedragon said:


> "....I like to charitably assume these soapers who sell soap as shampoo have shorter hair......"



I have had long hair pretty well most of my life and when I say long, since it is a relative term, it goes down past my waist to my buttocks. I've actually sat on it and pulled my head; I usually have it pulled up for that reason.



dixiedragon said:


> "....also realize that most people aren't doing testing  over, say, a year."



I've used my solid shampoo for more than a month or so. I've used mine for each hair washing (2 x a week) and it's been for 2 years (maybe longer). I have not experienced any deterioration, in fact it is less dry during the winter months. I've always had good hair so I cannot say that anything was 'fixed' like my fingers and hands were with using 'natural' soap. My intent was not to "fix" anything but to remove detergent-based cleansers.




dixiedragon said:


> "....don't realize what they are doing.... it seems good, then they start selling."



Before making my 1st solid shampoo I researched for several months--yes 'months.' I'm retired so my reading could involve 8-10 hours of reading--love to read and now I have the time to do it. I posted some of those sites in my 'way too long' posts in this thread. I love my hair and don't trust many to even touch it with shears so I'm not wanting to do something that could possibly harm it (lol, it's like my baby).

I also have someone quite knowledgable in the field of hair in my family (cosmetologist) to consult regarding solid shampoo and what it does to the pH of the hair. This, I truly believe is where soaping people have a problem regarding solid shampoo. It is soap (of course) and thus cannot be made suitable for hair's pH (about 4.7). Most handmade soap is between 9-10, my shampoo bars (best I can tell with a digital pH reader) are about 8.75. "Real" soap cannot be brought down to hair or scalp's pH because it's chemically impossible; detergent, however, can be used in a pH of 3.67. It is the detergent that lathers and cleans and that is exactly what I'm wanting to steer clear of--syndets. Soap cannot only _NOT _lather in a pH of 3.67, soap doesn't exist in that kind of pH as mentioned in-depth earlier in this thread.



KiwiMoose said:


> Woot!  Look what I found! https://www.rusticart.in/what-is-rustic-art-shampoo-butter/


I also found that site earlier today and have been spending time looking up all the ingredients listed, in between chores and cooking. I 'assumed' it was only butters and oils with some glycerin with no surfactants/detergents which had been one of many approaches used thousands of years ago:  after using a citric juice to cleans hair, oils, and EOs were used to condition the hair. Later I can finish Googling the rest of the ingredients, I found it does have surfactants so it's not what I initially thought it to be.


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## Auxotroph (Oct 31, 2019)

Handmade soap isn't all that natural. It is made using quite a heavy chemical reaction. Well it depends on what you call natural. Even SLS is naturally derived. 

Please elaborate on natural.

Handmade soap isn't all that natural. It is made using quite a heavy chemical reaction. Well it depends on what you call natural. Even SLS is naturally derived.

Please elaborate on natural.

By the way, my shampoo butter doesn't have surfactants in it.


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## Primrose (Oct 31, 2019)

Auxotroph I have to admit I have been following this thread and really dont know what your intention is here ... you ask if anyone uses and promotes CP soap as shampoo ... some people do, some people dont. You are giving strong suggestions that syndet shampoo is the only type that should ever be used, and furthermore to that, that  your fancy shampoo butter is superior to all, that its the only thing we should be making and selling as shampoo. Yet you wont actually tell us what is in it ... no one needs an actual recipe but if you harp on about how great it is and that everyone should be making it ... logic says that you should at least give some information about what kind of product it is and what type of ingredients go into it. 

Unless you are just wanting to sell your product??


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## Auxotroph (Oct 31, 2019)

The purpose of the thread is to find out why people sell and give away CP soap as shampoo, when it isn't shampoo at all and is in fact dangerous to hair. 

In my shampoo you will find keratin, cocoa, mango, Shea and a host of other good for the hair products.


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 31, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> The purpose of the thread is to find out why people sell and give away CP soap as shampoo, when it isn't shampoo at all and is in fact dangerous to hair.
> 
> In my shampoo you will find keratin, cocoa, mango, Shea and a host of other good for the hair products.


Oh - so your local salon sells this to customers on your behalf?  That's good of them.
Do you have any lathering agents in your shampoo butter?  It sounds like it would be too oily/greasy otherwise.


----------



## Michele50 (Oct 31, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> Handmade soap isn't all that natural. It is made using quite a heavy chemical reaction. Well it depends on what you call natural. Even SLS is naturally derived.
> 
> Please elaborate on natural.


There is no real definition of the word 'natural' and that causes much confusion, even arguments. As a general rule, I don't use that word because of that--it means different things to different people. It has no formal definition for this reason. While the FDA has a definition for 'soap' (https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetic-products/frequently-asked-questions-soap) *it doesn't have a formal one for what 'nature' is*, even asked for public input (https://www.fda.gov/food/food-labeling-nutrition/use-term-natural-food-labeling) and I think that's why many food companies use 'organic' because it has a "defined" meaning. Organic (https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-standards) can be regulated but natural is not. 

As stated earlier, detergents literally cause the skin on my fingers (within 2 weeks) to dry so severely that it breaks open and bleeds due to the way detergents in hand soap wipe out my natural oils. This lasted for >54 years until I made and used my own soap, there's no use in repeating an already long post (pt 1, pt 2 & pt 3). I was responding to a post where the person used that word. Understanding the person's use, or at least I think I do, I responded. I actually don't believe I used the word 'natural' in my lengthy response as I usually avoid its use for reasons already stated. I told my sister (who uses my HP shampoo bars) that if it wasn't so painful and miserable, I'd go out and buy detergent-based stuff and use it and then take close-up photos of my deeply broken and bleeding fingers to demonstrate 'visually' what detergent does to me. 

Respectfully, chemical reactions don't nullify something from being 'natural.' Our bodies are walking natural chemical reactions. We undergo thousands of synthesizing/chemical changes each and every day; I read 37.5 trillion but I have no idea if that's valid, I just know that it's a bunch. Just because something is a heavy chemical reaction doesn't mean it isn't a natural reaction. Granted, the lye we buy today is man-made (https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/academic-and-educational-journals/potassium-hydroxide andhttps://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hydroxide). Old-time soap was made, and is still made by some, by soaking hardwood ash in rainwater and combing it (when ready) to fats to create soap. I actually accomplished this (stated earlier in my pt 1, 2, 3. We burn hardwood to heat our home so 2 winters ago I gave it a try. I did make a very crud pioneer soap that lathered and it only had hardwood ash soaked in water and lard that was cooked in an old stainless steel pot on my gas stove--can't get more natural than that in my book. I'd rather use *that *for my skin than the detergent-based stuff. There are so many variables where the skin is concerned; what works for some might not work for all. If we cooked on open fires outdoors as centuries ago and spilled some fat from cooking an animal into the ashes and then used a little water to put the fire out we very well might end up with soap. In fact, that's 'kind of' how legend says soap was discovered thousands of years ago.



Auxotroph said:


> The purpose of the thread is to find out why people sell and give away CP soap as shampoo, when it isn't shampoo at all and is in fact dangerous to hair.
> 
> In my shampoo you will find keratin, cocoa, mango, Shea and a host of other good for the hair products.


You sound like you might be a cosmetologist or dermatologist, are you?? The reason for asking is that both are well-knowledgeable regarding hair and hair-health.


----------



## Auxotroph (Oct 31, 2019)

Not everything 


KiwiMoose said:


> Oh - so your local salon sells this to customers on your behalf?  That's good of them.
> Do you have any lathering agents in your shampoo butter?  It sounds like it would be too oily/greasy otherwise.



It's their shampoo, I have just been trying to help them formulate a freezer stable version so that they can go completely plastic free. 

Shampoo bars synthetic or CP soap must just absolutely be crawling with bacteria. 

That is another reason to not make super hard soap. Because if it lasts too long, the bacteria on it just explode.


----------



## Michele50 (Oct 31, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> Handmade soap isn't all that natural. It is made using quite a heavy chemical reaction. Well it depends on what you call natural. Even SLS is naturally derived.
> 
> Please elaborate on natural.
> 
> By the way, my shampoo butter doesn't have surfactants in it.



I *did not* say _your _shampoo butter had any surfactants in it. If you go back to the original posts--#s 48, 49, & 54) you'll see it was in response to @KiwiMoose 's link to a product 'shampoo butter' that I had also found in my own search of the topic. It is '_*their*_' product that has surfactants (2) in it. I figured, with the alluding but no general info about your shampoo butter that it was like the ancients used on hair and thus nothing new. New and innovative to us on this side of time but not new when taking into account the centuries of various things used to cleans hair and make it not stinky. Also, these methods (oils/butters) of cleansing hair were in my very lengthy post; I gather you didn't read it (lol, nor did anyone else, hahahaa, too much reading for many). 




Obsidian said:


> just saw that. Doesn't look like it has any cleansers, maybe its just a glorified cleansing conditioner.
> 
> I'll stick to my commercial shampoo and syndet bars



@Obsidian , it has two: 






AND





Here are the ingredients listed on that site: 





To each his/her own; I'll be sticking to my HP shampoo bars and my own conditioner.



Auxotroph said:


> Not everything
> 
> 
> It's their shampoo, I have just been trying to help them formulate a freezer stable version so that they can go completely plastic free.
> ...


Do you realize how long lye soap has been being made and used?? This was somewhat detailed in my lengthy post (pts 1, 2, 3) but I realize some might argue, "Just because something has existed and been used for thousands of years doesn't make it safe or good." You know some people have debater's blood, my eldest son did and still does; he won 1st place at state for his highschool debate team. That not only had never been accomplished by any seniors but had certainly never been done by a 10th-grade student. Looks like you have this blood in you @Auxotroph 

If some have done their homework (exhaustive research with sites listed) in regards to solid shampoo and have a real live cosmetologist at the ready to confirm that pH isn't the major point in hair damage--why?? because the pH can easily be returned and lowering of the cuticles accomplished which is what sets up hair to serious damage if not corrected-- then the soap must be a horrible product due to bacteria. You are tooooo funny!!


----------



## Primrose (Nov 1, 2019)

Bar soap isn't crawling with bacteria 
...


----------



## Michele50 (Nov 1, 2019)

Primrose said:


> Bar soap isn't crawling with bacteria
> ...


It does have bacteria but from the mouths of EXPERTS, it's our own bacteria and nothing to fret about. 

https://www.self.com/story/bar-soap-sanitary-or-germy
"The bulk of germs on your bar soap are probably from your own skin, Tatyana Petukhova, M.D., a dermatologist at Weill Cornell Medicine and NewYork-Presbyterian, tells SELF....It’s estimated that about half the cells in the human body are bacteria, and a lot of those live upon your skin, helping to make up what’s known as your skin microbiome. Other microorganisms like fungi are also part of this environment. Your skin’s microbiome is essential to your immune system as it helps protect you from invading pathogens. So, it’s not a big deal to deposit microorganisms from your skin onto your soap, then back onto your skin....." I will believe MDs, clinical professor of microbiology, multiple Ph. Ds, dermatologists and the CDC over an individual peddling product.

You know @Primrose there are people in this world with an agenda, unlike those who really have a concern for fellow soapers for using shampoo bars or not using the proper equipment when making soap (goggles, gloves, etc). I think there is an agenda here---->to promote a product as the only safe and terrific thing for hair and maybe skin. When researching ANYTHING I always look for agendas because they will usually taint the position taken. I read both sides of things to get a good overall understanding of it whatever 'it' might be. There is an agenda here, to promote and hopefully sell to us a product that is supposed to be cutting edge; I'm certain it has a hefty price tag. Any product that is vague/will not list ingredients and is pushed/promoted with little detail, that's when my spidey senses kick in. I'd use my crude pioneer soap over anything unknown; at least I know the only thing in my crude liquidy soap was hardwood ash in distilled water and lard. 

My personal opinion, using a discussion in this forum full of kindhearted and helpful folk with the agenda to sneakily sell something or push its sales for the salon is just wrong. This is a sharing of info site where many come to ask the help of others more experienced, not a marketplace.



Primrose said:


> Bar soap isn't crawling with bacteria
> ...


My husband laughs at me *often*; apparently I'm quite hilarious. The reason being is that I go to search *one *thing and I branch out to *a half a dozen other topics*. In my own defense, they really are related! When I was looking into the best beard brush and to purchase for my son's 24" beard I ended up reading so much material (20 sites) on how wood is processed and all about how wood is stronger when it's cut at certain angles. He is knowledgeable, kind of a jack of all trades, so I started some things and asked him if I understood these things correctly. The good news was that I properly processed the info for which I was unfamiliar. He asked what in the world was I reading about wood, he was very confused. Construction of wooden beard combs, particularly the longer ones, is very important. If I bought that one for my son I wanted to purchase a well-constructed long comb. 

@Auxotroph 's comment about bateria ridden soap (syndet and/cp), lol, I had already researched this years ago. The above site mentioned is full of info from specialists and only one of many sites I visited. That's why I asked if he/she was a dermatologist or cosmetologist, those kinds of professionals I would be more inclined to listen to over a layman. I'm not a specialist by any means but I don't consider myself a layman either, well, maybe an informed layman. I've done nothing but reading these past 4-5 years since retiring; I finally have the time.



Obsidian said:


> I've never hear of shampoo butter? I assume its a detergent based creamy product?
> 
> I don't want your formula, just a basic description of it.



Apparently what we are finding online that is also called shampoo butter isn't what @Auxotroph is alluding to.  You know @Obsidian , I thought there was an agenda to sell a 'new' 'cutting-edge' product here--100% natural shampoo butter--but that could be absolutely wrong. Maybe someone is offering "*Big opportunities for people here*" to us for investing in it, lol. I can't quite figure it out; I don't think this is really an information-seeking thing that's going on.



Auxotroph said:


> Just had a quick look online and there is a lot of commercially made shampoo butter but basically zero hand made natural stuff.
> 
> I am sorry that I can't give you the formulation.
> 
> ...


----------



## Auxotroph (Nov 1, 2019)

Michele50 said:


> It does have bacteria but from the mouths of EXPERTS, it's our own bacteria and nothing to fret about.
> 
> https://www.self.com/story/bar-soap-sanitary-or-germy
> "The bulk of germs on your bar soap are probably from your own skin, Tatyana Petukhova, M.D., a dermatologist at Weill Cornell Medicine and NewYork-Presbyterian, tells SELF....It’s estimated that about half the cells in the human body are bacteria, and a lot of those live upon your skin, helping to make up what’s known as your skin microbiome. Other microorganisms like fungi are also part of this environment. Your skin’s microbiome is essential to your immune system as it helps protect you from invading pathogens. So, it’s not a big deal to deposit microorganisms from your skin onto your soap, then back onto your skin....." I will believe MDs, clinical professor of microbiology, multiple Ph. Ds, dermatologists and the CDC over an individual peddling product.
> ...



I am not trying to sell anything, I am just pointing out a huge gap in the otherwise saturated market of handmade beuty products. 

I am also a microbiologist and have tested in the laboratory bacteria formation on used soap and let me tell you, it is not the pretty picture that you are painting. That is why they always advise immunocompromised people to always use liquid soap and shower gels. 

You are right though, there is lots of bacteria in the human body, but there is also lots of bacteria living in the shower. If you saw what I have seen living on soap, I doubt that you would ever use it again.


----------



## beckster51 (Nov 1, 2019)

Let's just get off the bacteria wagon, shall we?  I am a nurse, and there is bacteria on _everything_ unless it has been sterilized.  There have been outbreaks of infections in hospitals from liquid soap dispensers including antibacterial soaps, so there is no product, unless sterilized, that does not have bacteria all over it.  It is just a matter of whether or not it is friendly bacteria or not.


----------



## mommycarlson (Nov 1, 2019)

I'm one of the few who uses my own CP soap for shampoo. It's a different recipe than my regular soap, not that it matters, it's still CP soap. I have a very short pixie haircut and my hair is gray. I've been using my own shampoo bars for 5 years now with no issues. BUT I believe it's because my hair is super short. I would not recommend to anyone with longer hair. Hubs also uses my shampoo bars.

ETA: in the winter months I do not wash my hair daily, but every other day. In the summer months I wash it daily as I am a cyclist and it gets really sweaty. Gross, I know lol but thought it was important to note


----------



## dixiedragon (Nov 1, 2019)

I think Auxotroph is trolling us. Even if he/she doesn't want to share the exact process or recipe, they will have to include a list of ingredients on the packaging so no reason not to share the ingredients here.


----------



## GML (Nov 1, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> I think Auxotroph is trolling us. Even if he/she doesn't want to share the exact process or recipe, they will have to include a list of ingredients on the packaging so no reason not to share the ingredients here.



It's super secret okay!!!!!


----------



## Kiti Williams (Nov 1, 2019)

No, I have a body soap for my bod![/QUOTE]

What's the difference?[/QUOTE]


  I put in Cocoa Butter and a bit of Shea butter in my body bars.  Avocado Oil is for the hair shaft, hydrating it and feeding the scalp.


----------



## MGM (Nov 1, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> I think Auxotroph is trolling us. Even if he/she doesn't want to share the exact process or recipe, they will have to include a list of ingredients on the packaging so no reason not to share the ingredients here.


@dixiedragon You're not listening! They need it to be freezer-stable so they can go plastics-free. There will be no packaging! Unless you count the freezer as packaging....what does the EPA say about how you list your ingredients on a freezer? @KiwiMoose probably knows. 
At least you could use a really big font....


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Nov 1, 2019)

MGM said:


> At least you could use a really big font....


----------



## Auxotroph (Nov 1, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> I think Auxotroph is trolling us. Even if he/she doesn't want to share the exact process or recipe, they will have to include a list of ingredients on the packaging so no reason not to share the ingredients here.



There are no regulations like that in New Zealand. We don't need insurance or anything to sell soap or personal care products. The only rules we have is that you can't make claims that it is a cure to something. Like we can't say that this soap cures itchy skin kind of thing. 

I am not trolling, I just think that it is really sad that people promote soap as shampoo when it really isn't.


----------



## LilyJo (Nov 1, 2019)

Weird, I've just read the EPA standards on cosmetics and that wasn't my take on labelling at all. Be interested to hear from some of our other Aus and NZ members on what they do for labelling.

Btw, dont forget if your shampoo butter is so revolutionary you will end up selling it outside of NZ and would gave to comply with local testing and labelling laws anyway!


----------



## Auxotroph (Nov 1, 2019)

LilyJo said:


> Weird, I've just read the EPA standards on cosmetics and that wasn't my take on labelling at all. Be interested to hear from some of our other Aus and NZ members on what they do for labelling.
> 
> Btw, dont forget if your shampoo butter is so revolutionary you will end up selling it outside of NZ and would gave to comply with local testing and labelling laws anyway!



All the ingredients are FDA approved. 

1000 units have been sold outside of New Zealand. 

1000 units at 49$ per unit.


----------



## Obsidian (Nov 1, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> I am not trolling, I just think that it is really sad that people promote soap as shampoo when it really isn't.



You do realize that people buying the shampoo bars are aware its not real shampoo?
Thats why many use it, to get away from synthetic detergents.

If people want to use soap on their hair, more power to them. I'll warn people of the possible risks but won't try and change their minds.

If your products is selling so well, why are you so bent out of shape about shampoo bars?


----------



## Michele50 (Nov 1, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> I am not trying to sell anything, I am just pointing out a huge gap in the otherwise saturated market of handmade beuty products.
> 
> I am also a microbiologist and have tested in the laboratory bacteria formation on used soap and let me tell you, it is not the pretty picture that you are painting. That is why they always advise immunocompromised people to always use liquid soap and shower gels.
> 
> You are right though, there is lots of bacteria in the human body, but there is also lots of bacteria living in the shower. If you saw what I have seen living on soap, I doubt that you would ever use it again.


@Auxotroph I’m glad to know you’re a microbiologist; I had inquired about your field of study earlier but received no response—thanks for the info.

You’re preaching to the choir regarding bacteria on bar cleansers/soap. 20 yrs ago I switched all syndet bars in our large childcare learning center (shortly after it’s purchased) to liquid cleanser dispensers *for that very reason*. At home, only DH used bars in shower (I used my liquid shampoo) & he preferred to continue; however, all sinks were switched from bars to liquid dispensers (automatic kind) to prevent germ transference from hands to dispenser & to another person’s hand. I’m really NOT germophobic, let’s just say I’m very aware/want to stay healthy/don’t trust that others properly wash after toileting/& don’t want their nasty germs on my hands. Furthermore, the 1st thing I do when I arrive home after shopping is to thoroughly wash because I’ve picked up many germs from others (ick). Germophobic? No. Wise? Yes.

I’ve since come full circle—back to bars. Why? Especially being aware of the mass number of germs on bars??

·        If I fixated on the germs that exist in the mouth, I’d never kiss my DH; shoot, I’d not even hold hands because of the # of germs on “*him*”

·        If I fixated on the germs living on fruits/veggies that others have touched at the store with their improperly or ‘*not’* washed hands, I’d never buy & eat them

·        Cell phones are full of them too, do I quit using mine?? It gets recontaminated quickly after sanitizing

·        Oh my gosh, don’t get me started on household bathrooms!! Years ago, I trained my DH to close the lid b/4 he flushes to prevent germs from raising upward & be deposited on toothbrushes & other surfaces. With the *VAST* # of germs in our bathroom (despite frequent cleaning/sanitizing/etc) do I evacuate & call Hazmat? Of course not, I take preventative measures instead.

I don’t live in a stainless-steel bubble with a can of the best sanitizing spray. Living in the real world, germ-filled as it is, how do I prevent illness? Educate myself, carefully process the varied info I’ve taken in, & be vigilant in prevention where *all* is concerned.

Everything has two sides—don’t because of x, y, & z and then go ahead, it’s okay. I’m not taking anything away from your field of study, but there’s an opposing point of view from MDs, “_other”_ microbiologists, the CDC, multiple Ph. Ds, dermatologists, & clinical professors of microbiology in just that one site I linked in my post. Some study germs, improve sterilization procedures and/or develop new drugs to combat infectious diseases (like you & _those_ microbiologists in the material sited), some treat illnesses from germs (dermatologists & MDs), some work to prevent the spread of illnesses/diseases (the CDC), & some have a boatload of knowledge (Ph. Ds in Biology & Public Health). I read—*eat & breathe it, so to speak*—then weigh all that I’ve read & couple that with _prevention_ (as found in previous post’s link). That one site (& there were many more I read) explains that we can stay healthy even if we choose to keep using bars of syndet/soap; we don’t have to sacrifice what we like & switch to liquid cleansers. The site also covered those you mentioned—the immunocompromised: “Also, if you’re immunocompromised for any reason and can’t fight back against a disease-causing invader, Dr. Petukhova says you’re at a higher risk of infection even from your own skin flora.” Can these people slip out of their skin to prevent infecting themselves and becoming ill? Most assuredly not; they have to then become vigilant on what they ‘can’ do to help themselves. Oh, no pretty picture do I paint, just stating (or siting) facts from a whole slue of experts from a myriad of fields of study.

It’s good that the use of this forum wasn’t to sell or gain investors for the product you mentioned in name only; however, if you joined this soaping forum in hopes to convert soap makers to liquid cleansers/liquid soap, I don’t see that happening. I’ll end with another quote, “Even when it comes to other bacteria your bar soap may pick up, the U.S. National Library of Medicine notes that less than 1 percent of bacteria make people sick.”


----------



## Auxotroph (Nov 1, 2019)

Michele50 said:


> @Auxotroph I’m glad to know you’re a microbiologist; I had inquired about your field of study earlier but received no response—thanks for the info.
> 
> You’re preaching to the choir regarding bacteria on bar cleansers/soap. 20 yrs ago I switched all syndet bars in our large childcare learning center (shortly after it’s purchased) to liquid cleanser dispensers *for that very reason*. At home, only DH used bars in shower (I used my liquid shampoo) & he preferred to continue; however, all sinks were switched from bars to liquid dispensers (automatic kind) to prevent germ transference from hands to dispenser & to another person’s hand. I’m really NOT germophobic, let’s just say I’m very aware/want to stay healthy/don’t trust that others properly wash after toileting/& don’t want their nasty germs on my hands. Furthermore, the 1st thing I do when I arrive home after shopping is to thoroughly wash because I’ve picked up many germs from others (ick). Germophobic? No. Wise? Yes.
> 
> ...



Thank God for bacteriophages, the most prominent organism on earth. There are more bacteriophages than all other organisms combined. They are not alive or dead, and they kill bacteria. 

I am not trying to make people convert to liquid soap, I am trying to stop the CP soap as shampoo scam. People charge an extra 2-3$ just by calling their soap shampoo.


----------



## Dawni (Nov 1, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> Thank God for bacteriophages, the most prominent organism on earth. There are more bacteriophages than all other organisms combined. They are not alive or dead, and they kill bacteria.
> 
> I am not trying to make people convert to liquid soap, I am trying to stop the CP soap as shampoo scam. People charge an extra 2-3$ just by calling their soap shampoo.


Going back to your thread title.. If I do make and promote my soap as shampoo bars, who are you to stop me and say it's a scam?

If customers are buying, and buying repeatedly, it must mean it works for them. If they buy once and never came back then that's fine, too. It's also my call how much I want to charge, and their call how much they're willing to spend on a bar.

It's quite literally my business, not any of yours.


----------



## Auxotroph (Nov 2, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Going back to your thread title.. If I do make and promote my soap as shampoo bars, who are you to stop me and say it's a scam?
> 
> If customers are buying, and buying repeatedly, it must mean it works for them. If they buy once and never came back then that's fine, too. It's also my call how much I want to charge, and their call how much they're willing to spend on a bar.
> 
> It's quite literally my business, not any of yours.



Do you tell them that it is just soap and that like every soap you can use it in your hair? 

Or do you miss lead them and tell them that it is specially made and differentiates from normal soap?


----------



## Michele50 (Nov 2, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> Do you tell them that it is just soap and that like every soap you can use it in your hair?
> 
> Or do you miss lead them and tell them that it is specially made and differentiates from normal soap?



I'm guessing that you really don't understand that shampoo as we know it today came *after *soap was used as shampoo? Soap was shampoo, according to the history of shampoo. I've covered this b/4 but in case you missed it--probably more that you don't listen to history but instead only the magical Soap god who has shared with only a chosen few as to what constitutes shampoo--here it is again, stated differently.

From the material below (history of shampoo) anyone (well, maybe not anyone) can conclude that soap was used as and was known as shampoo well b/4 what you say 'is shampoo' was invented. I'm not even sure what you are considering 'shampoo'; I know what you are condemning as not shampoo. I know you are verbally beating up those who make and sell 'soap' as shampoo--which *history proves* it is. You call it misleading, nope, history proves it is not.

“*Originally*, *soap and shampoo were very similar products*; both containing the same naturally derived surfactants, a type of detergent. *Modern shampoo* _as it is known today_ was first introduced in the 1930s with Drene, the first shampoo using synthetic surfactants instead of soap.” This material is taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shampoo Many things preseeded the 'invent' of what we know as shampoo.

To my knowledge, there is no Shampoo god who says what shampoo is and what products aren’t shampoo. Just taking a walk down shampoo lane, visiting the centuries of things used as ‘shampoo’ will tell you that even ashes mixed with water was used to ‘shampoo’ hair. “During the early stages of shampoo in Europe, *English hair stylists boiled shaved soap in water..’* Say it isn’t so @Auxotroph!!! Soap was shaved and added to boiling water and THAT was SHAMPOO!! Wow, I guess shampoo bars ARE really SHAMPOO!!! I guess CP soap really IS shampoo!! As I stated in my parts 1, 2, 3 soap was used to clean hair long before modern shampoo was invented (1927).

Which came 1st the chicken or the egg?? The answer is soap, lol; soap 1st and then shampoo as we know it today. History of shampoo below from wiki.

INDIAN SUBCONTINENT:

·        In the Indian subcontinent….herbs and their extracts…used as shampoos since ancient times. A very effective early shampoo was made by boiling Sapindus (AKA, soapnuts) with dried Indian gooseberry (amla) and a selection of other herbs, using the strained extract. The fruit pulp contains saponins which are a natural surfactant and the extract of soapnut creates a lather. Guru Nanak, the founder and the first Guru of Sikhism, made references to soapberry tree and soap in the 16th century.    

·        Cleansing with hair and body massage….was an indulgence of early colonial traders in India. When they returned to Europe, they introduced the newly learned habits, including the hair treatment they called shampoo.

EUOPE:

·        Sake Dean Mahomed…surgeon and entrepreneur…credited with introducing the practice of champooi or "shampooing" to Britain. In 1814, Mahomed….opened the first commercial "shampooing" vapour masseur bath in England, in Brighton.  

·        During the early stages of shampoo in Europe, *English hair stylists boiled shaved soap in water* and added herbs to give the hair shine and fragrance. Commercially made shampoo was available from the turn of the 20th century. A 1914 advertisement for Canthrox Shampoo in American Magazine….magazine advertisements in 1914 by Rexall featured Harmony Hair Beautifier and Shampoo.   

·        In 1927, liquid shampoo was invented by German inventor Hans Schwarzkopf in Berlin, whose name created a shampoo brand sold in Europe.

·        Originally, soap and shampoo were very similar products; both containing the same naturally derived surfactants, a type of detergent. Modern shampoo as it is known today was first introduced in the 1930s with Drene, the first shampoo using synthetic surfactants instead of soap.

INDONESIA

·        Early shampoos used in Indonesia were made from the husk and straw (merang) of rice. The husks and straws were burned into ash, *and the ashes* (which have alkaline properties*) are mixed with water to form lather*. The ashes and lather were scrubbed into the hair and rinsed out, leaving the hair clean, but very dry. Afterwards, coconut oil was applied to the hair in order to moisturize it.

Pre-Columbian North America

·        Certain Native American tribes *used* *extracts* from North American *plants as hair shampoo*

Pre-Columbian South America

·        Before quinoa can be eaten the saponin must be washed out from the grain prior to cooking. Pre-Columbian Andean civilizations *used this soapy by-product as a shampoo*.


----------



## Auxotroph (Nov 2, 2019)

Soap makers should just stop being misleading and call their 'shampoo' hair soap, which it really is. It is giving soap makers a bad name. 

That's enough 

Thread/


----------



## Michele50 (Nov 2, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> Soap makers should just stop being misleading and call their 'shampoo' hair soap, which it really is. It is giving soap makers a bad name.
> 
> That's enough
> 
> Thread/


I can appreciate your vision of what constitutes shampoo; however, history, proves that it was soap that was used to wash hair centuries ago.  During the early stages of shampoo in Europe, English hair stylists boiled shaved soap in water, this WAS the shampoo of the day.

Just because it has morphed into a liquid concoction with very different ingredients than soap and liquid instead of a bar and cleverly marketed as shampoo doesn't make 'soap' shampoo of centuries ago no longer shampoo. If you were hundreds of years old and you lived back when soap was shampoo and the first liquid shampoo was boiled shaved soap in water and you saw a bar of regular old soap, you'd call that bar of soap _shampoo _and if you saw boiled shaved soap in water in a pot you'd know it was shampoo.

I really don't see your confusion (??). A rose called by any other name is still a rose--soap was shampoo hundreds of years ago / boiled shaved soap in water was the first (probably) liquid shampoo of the time. In fact, I be the liquid mixture of boiled shaved soap for shampoo is what gave some person the idea to invent liquid shampoo and then it morphed into what we know liquid shampoo to be today. I wouldn't be surprised to one day read that an old beauty shop in Europe was dug out and vessels labeled shampoo were found and opened only to find bars of soap and those making the discovery became confused---as are you.

Whether it's called hair soap or shampoo, according to history they are the same because soap was used to shampoo hair/clean hair. I'm puzzled as to how you get to define shampoo. History has already defined it....ashes mixed with water to form a lather; soapnuts, dried amla, and herbs which was a very effective early shampoo; and the boiled shaved soap in water.

If you believe what you call shampoo is the *only *shampoo then don't market shampoo bars, sell that shampoo butter. But don't tell others here who do that they are misleading others.....history backs them up. Nor are they engaging in false advertising; if they were than those in Europe who boiled shaved soap were also engaging in false advertising. Shampoo bars often have more ingredients; I know mine do and I won't spend that money on ingredients for just my body soap. They are more expensive to make and 'if' I sold shampoo bars (not hair soap, but shampoo bars) then I'd charge more since it costs me more to make them.

I don't see anyone else other than you thinking that selling shampoo bars are giving soap makers a bad name. I believe that you are trying to tarnish soap makers by inventing your own rules for shampoo. I'll stick with history, thank you.


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## Auxotroph (Nov 2, 2019)

You are misreading your readings. They added water to shaved soap and then added herbs that detoxify the hair. Thus diluting the soap and then adding the other agents, thus rendering it highly diluted soap and not straight soap. They knew it was bad even way back then. 

Herbs don't survive saponificaton.


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## LilyJo (Nov 2, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> All the ingredients are FDA approved.
> 
> 1000 units have been sold outside of New Zealand.
> 
> 1000 units at 49$ per unit.



Ok, where are you selling, which countries?

With all due respect to US soapers, the FDA isn't the only approval body and unless you are getting around the laws, at some point you will have to provide a full list of ingredients to consumers.

I dont understand the point of this thread.  You don't like CP sold or used as shampoo but people do and whether any of us like it, that's up to them. Not me or you.

You may have an amazing new product but you are being so cagey you are getting people's backs up - no one can comment or critique or even just give their pov cos you aren't saying anything other than everyone else is wrong. What were you hoping to get from starting this thread? Marketing information, sales or was it a genuine attempt to understand other soapers? Just trying to cut through the nonsense and understand where you are coming from tbh.


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## Michele50 (Nov 2, 2019)

Auxotroph said:


> You are misreading your readings. They added water to shaved soap and then added herbs that detoxify the hair. Thus diluting the soap and then adding the other agents, thus rendering it highly diluted soap and not straight soap. They knew it was bad even way back then.
> 
> Herbs don't survive saponificaton.


If you were really interested in educating then you'd be discussing what it is that makes shampoo bars bad for hair--its the pH vs the pH of what you consider real shampoo. You say, "They knew it was bad even way back then." Many ways of trying to cleanse hair were drying and I suspect that's why there were new ideas and other various things tried throughout the history of shampoo. It was not until the invent of detergents (during WWI) that a real solution for cleansing hair was concocted--solution in that there was now something that could lather and clean in a low pH environment, something soap/shampoo bars will never be able to do because saponification breaks in that low of a pH setting.

I never wash my hair with straight soap/shampoo bars. How comical that you should think that anyone can wash hair with straight shampoo bars. The lather that one works up in adding water to the bar and rubbing it in their hands to produce the lather is DILUTED shampoo from the solid bar. Handmade  soap/shampoo bars have a higher pH than commercial soaps and commercial shampoo only because these products contain detergents that are able to lather in a low pH environment. When a pH higher than hair and scalp is used to cleans the hair, it naturally will raise the hair's pH and raise the protective cuticle layers. This, however, can be easily  remedied. It takes only moments for me to wash with my diluted shampoo lather and then I rinse, use my low pH conditioner, rinse with warm water and then follow up with pouring cold water slowly over my head. All is good and approved by my cosmetologist. Having hair permed, chemically straightened, and colored exposes hair to a much higher pH than shampoo bar lather and those chemicals stay on much longer shampoo lather so I expect to see you in the newspapers all over the world bashing hair salons for offering these damaging treatments and trying to get them to stop.

My sister, who mentioned to me she was using shampoo bars, didn't use anything to lower her pH and cuticles afterwards. She said she loved the body her hair now had after it dried. I told her it wasn't body at all and it was setting her hair up for cuticle breakage which leads to hair fiber drying out and later hair-splitting and breaking, also knots and tangles due to the static electricity. After explaining that her layers of cubicles were raised and preventing each hair strand from laying flat against the hairs next to them and the vulnerability her hair was in, she went back to using conditioner.

I once thought maybe you were honest in seeing if anyone used CP (or HP) Shampoo with good results; now I think:
"mischief-maker. noun. someone who enjoys causing trouble or disagreement." I think I'll go back to making shampoo bars & housework and not try to educate those who want to be divisive. You know you aren't going to convince anyone here that they are involved in false advertising or being misleading or to call their product 'hair' soap?? You continue to do as you please (not making and/or selling shampoo bars) and be dissatisfied with soap making--that it now has a bad name according to you--and those who make and sell solid shampoo will continue to do it with history on their side as for what they are _*calling *_it--shampoo.


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## Mistrael (Nov 2, 2019)

Michele50 said:


> Pre-Columbian North America
> 
> ·        Certain Native American tribes *used* *extracts* from North American *plants as hair shampoo*
> 
> ...



Just a fun little fyi... No past tense is needed on this, and one need not reference history when it comes to Native Americans and washing hair with botanicals. We're still here, and we still do.  Not all the time, unfortunately, and not all of us... Too many of my relatives have been so thoroughly colonized that they've lost the knowledge of their Ancestors.  But also, homemade plant-based washes take a lot of time and effort to make, while most of us are busting our butts just trying to make ends meet. So in the US, bottled shampoo is typically for regular use and traditional washes are for treats, special occasions, and sometimes for traditional spiritual rites.

Now, I can't personally speak to what happens in South America, but considering how many areas don't have regular, reliable shipments of supplies, and how much plant life abounds in less developed areas, I think it's safe to say there are many indigenous people who still use traditional ways for many, many things. 

And frankly, I struggle to find commercial shampoo & conditioner that can do all my hair needs. If I had access to yucca plants, I would absolutely try traditional yucca root washes and see if it worked better. My hair is just very different from European hair, and I'm only half Native.


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## Michele50 (Nov 2, 2019)

Mistrael said:


> Just a fun little fyi... No past tense is needed on this, and one need not reference history when it comes to Native Americans and washing hair with botanicals. We're still here, and we still do.  Not all the time, unfortunately, and not all of us... Too many of my relatives have been so thoroughly colonized that they've lost the knowledge of their Ancestors.  But also, homemade plant-based washes take a lot of time and effort to make, while most of us are busting our butts just trying to make ends meet. So in the US, bottled shampoo is typically for regular use and traditional washes are for treats, special occasions, and sometimes for traditional spiritual rites.
> 
> Now, I can't personally speak to what happens in South America, but considering how many areas don't have regular, reliable shipments of supplies, and how much plant life abounds in less developed areas, I think it's safe to say there are many indigenous people who still use traditional ways for many, many things.
> 
> And frankly, I struggle to find commercial shampoo & conditioner that can do all my hair needs. If I had access to yucca plants, I would absolutely try traditional yucca root washes and see if it worked better. My hair is just very different from European hair, and I'm only half Native.



LOL, I was keeping the wiki info intact and just copied/pasted all of it and then edited out 'a lot' of words to just keep words that were 'to the points' I was making. My husband is Native American (Cherokee). Out here in the country, there are many communities with those who have married within the Cherokee tribe or another tribe so driving through them you see very strong ethnicity. Some of whom we know do keep many cultural traditions. Tradition is often lost and thereby goes roots that tie; kind of sad. My DH remembers his grandma and great-grandma making soap--back then it was harsh though, and understandably so. No inside water so bathing took place outdoors in an oval-shaped metal or aluminum tub of sorts after drawing water from the well. My poor hubby was the youngest so he was last to bathe in a line of 10 people. Winter bathing he said was *cold*! Lol, maybe all the bodies in the water before him, the body being 98ish F, warmed the water for him. Good to know that some/many where you live have held onto traditional washes/shampoo; I can only imagine the time it takes to prepare and make. Lost arts of cultures is a sad thing. Here where we live, the lost arts of making pottery, jewelry, weaving baskets, making arrowheads and the like are taught to children by those older folk who never stopped making them. Though I'm not Cherokee, it pleases me to see an effort to keep these things alive.


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## Deb Walker (Nov 3, 2019)

People used soap for washing hair before shampoos but they also used rinses like tea as conditioners.  Tea is acidic.
I have long hair and also know many others that wash it with natural soap with better results than using synthetic shampoos.  We have all experienced improved skin, without the dermatitis type itching.   My daughter can sit on her hair and only uses soap for washing it - and has done for many years.
I gave up shampoos 8 years ago and my hair is doing well and I have no dandruff problems that I had using shampoos.
Consensus amongst my friends has it that a milk soap is the best.  I now do milk powder in colloidal copper citrate for the water content.  I make my own colloidal copper citrate.  It has many benefits and is easily made. 
It may be better to discount the water and use a concentrated colloidal copper citrate at trace.
Additives I use are :
A blend of essential oils for the antifungal properties (including Rosemary EO)
Calendula oil for the super fat.  I make my own with olive oil and calendula's I grow.  It has many benefits.

The tangly, straw effect and then going greasy quickly, is what happens when the acid was too dilute.  From my observations this is individual.  I use half strength vinegar and then rinse that mostly off.  Sometimes I use citric acid dissolved in water.
You all know the pH of skin and soap.  Vinegar is about 2pH and diluted 50% about 4-5pH. 

So many people have chronic health problems and many are desperate to find solutions.  They persist till they get things to work and get away from using synthetic products with"who knows what" in them (not everything has to be labeled). 

Because of my experience and what I have seen, I recommend trying soap bars for washing hair but each to their own.


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## Michele50 (Nov 4, 2019)

Deb Walker said:


> People used soap for washing hair before shampoos but they also used rinses like tea as conditioners.  Tea is acidic......"


Absolutely. I too tried to make that point (shredded soap in boiling water bla, bla, bla) to no avail. The response was, "they knew it was bad even way back then." Way back then they had not much else to use; detergents had not yet been invented. There were many things (as the history of shampoo demonstrates) used throughout time to cleans hair (including ash mixed with water then rubbed into hair), but all were found damaging; therefore, things were used to counter the pH issue--the use of citrus juice after cleansing and oiling the hair. This question was not asked in search of the true worth of CP or HP soap as shampoo, but instead to put an end to soap makers (in this forum) marketing 'soap' as shampoo. It was demanded that these products be called 'hair soap.' Funny that those of old didn't call it 'hair soap,' it was called shampoo. 



Deb Walker said:


> "....I have long hair and also know many others that wash it with natural soap with better results than using synthetic shampoos. ... My daughter can sit on her hair and only uses soap for washing it - and has done for many years. I gave up shampoos 8 years ago and my hair is doing well and I have no dandruff problems that I had using shampoos....."


I also have sat upon my hair and jerked my head when I moved because I didn't know I was sitting on it. I keep it up when driving to prevent this. While I've used my shampoo bars for only 2-3 years (can't remember which) I too saw improvement. I did months of research on hair, like the chemical make-up and the bonds within hair, its unique pH (3.67), etc. before deciding to make and use 'soap' on my hair.  



Deb Walker said:


> "...The tangly, straw effect...."



Static creates hair to tangle; that's why certain materials for combs are best for men with beards but the same really goes for women's hair. Shampoo bars will indeed create static because the pH is too high (unless lowered by way of ACV/water rinse, other low pH rinses, or a low pH conditioner). It is my belief that many don't realize, my sister for instance, that after using a shampoo bar the something needs to be done to lower the pH. My sister mistakenly thought her hair had more volume and body after switching from 'modern-day shampoo' to a shampoo bar. She told me she liked it so much that she quit using conditioner completely. Once I explained to her that her cuticle layers were raised and not permitting the hair strands to lay one upon the other, and raised will promote moisture-loss over time and then damage to the inner fibers, and a gentle suggestion that she *return *to using conditioner, she did. Had she not mentioned that to me and had she continued keeping her hair's normal ph of 3.67 raised to a higher 8.5-9 pH she would eventually have had dry, brittle hair and from there, worse damage: splitting and breakage. It's important for anyone using soap/shampoo bars to lower the pH of their hair after washing because hair is not like skin (5.5 pH). Skin will rebound and balance itself back out, hair cannot; cuticles will not lower themselves.



Deb Walker said:


> "....They persist till they get things to work and get away from using synthetic products with"who knows what" in them..."


My whole purpose in making and using shampoo bars was to get away from synthetic detergents. Using "real" soap had quite literally cured my fingers from drying out so severely that the skin would break open and bleed. From there the skin around the open cracks would dry and further splitting would occur--painful and unsightly. This happens usually right before we enter autumn and lasts until after spring; it can occur during spring/summer but just isn't an every-day thing. I've been like this all throughout life, until age 54 of when I began to make soap. Being that I must be predisposed to severe drying by detergents, I wanted something free of detergents for my hair. I understand the dangers of not lowering my hair's pH and that this will eventually cause real damage. 

I couldn't believe a person joined a soap forum with the intent to make others quite marketing soap as shampoo. Or, as he/she told others, call it 'hair soap.' And to insinuate that they are engaging in false advertising--history called it shampoo so how is that false advertising?


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## Lisa Wolff (Nov 18, 2020)

I have had the same experience as you Kiti. We have been making soap for 6 years and worked on reformulating our cold process soap recipe to work on my long hair as a shampoo bar two years ago. I do use a vinegar/chamomile & sage tea rinse every 5-7 washes or so (about once a month) and find that my hair has a lovely texture, has more natural body and nice shine, and only gets greasy after 3 or 4 days of not washing. When I used chemical shampoos I used to have to wash my hair daily to prevent it from getting greasy.
Part of my shift to cold-processed shampoo bars was part of a larger shift to manage my autoimmune condition. I was able to put my Graves’ disease into remission within 3 months of diagnosis by making a lot of lifestyle changes to eliminate chemicals and other toxins from my life - including stopping colouring my hair and eliminating chemicals from my shampoo, soaps and skincare. For me, the elimination of chemicals is as important as the texture and cleanliness of my hair when it comes to choosing my hair care routine. One of the side effects of graves disease is hair loss and I had experimented with using a coconut milk shampoo as that was recommended for encouraging regrowth. Then we reformulated our super-fatted soap to use coconut oil and cocoa butter as the base oils. I have been very pleased with the results, and my hair is nice and thick.
I believe that chemical and waste reduction are what are driving demand for shampoo bars and personally feel that cold process soaps can have a useful and meaningful place in this solution to this evolving and quite positive demand.


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## Kiti Williams (Nov 18, 2020)

Lisa Wolff said:


> I have had the same experience as you Kiti. We have been making soap for 6 years and worked on reformulating our cold process soap recipe to work on my long hair as a shampoo bar two years ago. I do use a vinegar/chamomile & sage tea rinse every 5-7 washes or so (about once a month) and find that my hair has a lovely texture, has more natural body and nice shine, and only gets greasy after 3 or 4 days of not washing. When I used chemical shampoos I used to have to wash my hair daily to prevent it from getting greasy.
> Part of my shift to cold-processed shampoo bars was part of a larger shift to manage my autoimmune condition. I was able to put my Graves’ disease into remission within 3 months of diagnosis by making a lot of lifestyle changes to eliminate chemicals and other toxins from my life - including stopping colouring my hair and eliminating chemicals from my shampoo, soaps and skincare. For me, the elimination of chemicals is as important as the texture and cleanliness of my hair when it comes to choosing my hair care routine. One of the side effects of graves disease is hair loss and I had experimented with using a coconut milk shampoo as that was recommended for encouraging regrowth. Then we reformulated our super-fatted soap to use coconut oil and cocoa butter as the base oils. I have been very pleased with the results, and my hair is nice and thick.
> I believe that chemical and waste reduction are what are driving demand for shampoo bars and personally feel that cold process soaps can have a useful and meaningful place in this solution to this evolving and quite positive demand.



In our home we had to get rid of anything with chemicals in it to help manage my Autistic Granddaughter.  No dyes or additives in food, soap not detergent in the washer, vinegar as a fabric softener and soap scum preventer.  The before/after in her was very noticeable.  It helps that doctors are seeing what does/does not work for these individuals.  

I have found that the dandruff and nasty excess oil is not a problem with my soap/conditioner bars.  I condition the ends and then pile my hair up onto my head to get the roots a diluted conditioner.  I can put the soap where it is most needed so I am not using as much in a go as the liquid stuff.  I think more of the commercial stuff got on the floor of my shower than my head.  My hair is at sit on length, and I used to get it cut close to my scalp for wig donations.  They loved getting mine because of how healthy it is.

Ethnic hair is a wild thing.  Asian hair is straight and course, European hair is finer, and has curl, African hair is tight curls with little oil from the scalp to ends.  Native hair is very close to Asian hair, a bit finer in the hair shaft.  Different hair, different needs.  There is a place for both synthetic and natural soaps.


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## mishmish (Feb 3, 2021)

I think that what we forget is that before the 1930's, all people had to wash their hair with was soap made with lye, unless you lived in a culture that used saponin-rich plant materials like soapnuts, soapwort or yucca. My grandmother taught me that after washing your hair you used  final a rinse of water and vinegar or lemon juice...she didnt know about PH, but that was what she had been taught to do and she passed it on, because in her day they used soap. They must have had ways to make it work, because women didn't just discover beautiful hair post-WWII.


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## HoliHealerz (Feb 18, 2022)

Kiti Williams said:


> I have a whole house water softener unit, so my water is very pure.  I have used limpness paper on it and it shows no visible chemical impurities.  The soap is my own recipe, OO, CO, and AO, with tea tree and vit. E added in after trace.  I think maybe having good water is the key for a shampoo bar.  I would have to go back in my posts to a small FB group to get the actual date I started using my soap.  My daughter has my very thick (younger self) hair as well.  She has her hair layered so she can pull it into a pony tail without breaking the hair bands.
> 
> I'm glad I'm not the only one and I've not really wanted to state that I make and use them because I understand why others caution against the use of them. Over the years and many soap gifts, my daughter in law is a good person to go to for hair care. I picked her brain just a few months ago and asked her some very pointed questions. Her answers were spot on with what I had concluded with all the research I've done before making them and continue to read and research. While I make and use them, that doesn't mean others (friends and family) will have good success with them. I had been holding my tongue regarding the making and useage of them......now cat's out of the bag.



  I was blasted by a few members here when I first joined.  I first test my soaps on my family, they have agreed to let me know how a recipe  works out.  Then I have a test group who will tell me how the soap works out for them.  Only then will I sell/offer my soaps to the public.  I started out just making my shampoo bars for my own use.  The commercial stuff left me all greasy and dandruffy.  1 use of the shampoo bar got rid of the dandruff, and the greasy feel after washing was gone.  Yes, I did have to wash my hair every day for about 2 weeks before my scalp got the message that it didn't need to over supply oils.  I can go as long as 4 days between washing in winter. 

  I make a beard soap that is currently being tested by 16 men at my seasonal work.  3 are so impressed they wanted a full bar.  I think shampoo bars, and the soaps we make here, are a finer quality than my grandmother's lard and lye soap.

My shampoo bar recipe is as follows: 15 oz Avocado oil, 15 oz Coconut oil, 18 oz Olive oil.  My lye is 6.7 oz dissolved in 14 oz tap water with sea salt added in prior.  (I set my water to age after I have added the Sea salt.  1 T to a gallon of water)  I mix the oils, add in the lye solution when both are around 135 degrees.  I blend to thin trace add in 20 drops of Vit. E oil and 10 drops of Tea Tree oil.  mix well, and you can put in the scent of your choice.  I add just enough to smell it, but not so much as to knock you over.  Pour into molds and let it all get to know itself.  I pop them out at approx. 24 hours and set them to age for 4 weeks.

  The bar gives a big luscious, tons of creamy lather, so I usually do 4 swipes on my head and then lather up.  It yields approx 48 ozs of shampoo, 12 bares worth.
[/QUOTE]
So kind of you to provide such precious information.  Where I am, ad-vocado () oil is not available so easily so can you suggest another?? Tallow maybe).  I ALWAYS use tap water. .Thank you for your story.


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## Kiti Williams (Feb 18, 2022)

You can use Safflower oil in place of the Avocado Oil.


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## HoliHealerz (Feb 19, 2022)

Kiti Williams said:


> You can use Safflower oil in place of the Avocado Oil.


Ooooh thank you for your response.  That is TOTALLY doable


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## Kiti Williams (Feb 19, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> Ooooh thank you for your response.  That is TOTALLY doable ☺



This is why we craft-ers got on the WWW in the first place.  To be a help when needed.


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## HoliHealerz (Feb 19, 2022)

Kiti Williams said:


> This is why we craft-ers got on the WWW in the first place.  To be a help when needed.


May you be rewarded by greater knowledge.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 23, 2022)

Please read Post #26


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## Megan (Feb 23, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that!  That happened to me too when I first joined in 2017. The forum was not the friendly place it is today. I was pilloried unmercifully up oneside and down the other. I almost quit but a compassionate member reached out to me privately and encouraged me to stay, saying, "It will get better in a few months".
> 
> I stayed but watched from behind the scenes as I witnessed one experienced soapmaker after another receive the same treatment. After trying, politely, to defend themselves, they quietly departed, never to be seen again. Sad. As a result, only Newbies stayed on, which now comprises the largest % of the active participants.
> 
> I thought we had gotten past that. I guess not.


Zany, you might want to read a few of Holi's posts before apologizing to them...it's really hard to discern who started what or why the conversation even went where it did...but from my POV gentle education was met with a very combative attitude. Afterwards, there was a little back and forth where the tone was somewhat negative back...but they're not the victim they're making themselves out to be, especially after bringing up a hot-button issue like HP and cure.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 23, 2022)

Megan said:


> Zany, you might want to read a few of Holi's posts before apologizing to them


  Thank you, Megan.
Haha. I just started to read this excellent thread (discussing both sides of the issue in a non-confrontational manner so far) from the beginning. Old person here. I forgot that I had already stated what you quoted just now way back in Post #26. No sense in repeating myself. I've edited my post #97 to reflect that.


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## Phantomka (Feb 25, 2022)

If I can say, maybe it helps someone, the soap bars works great for me. It really helps me with dandruff. But you have to understand that I shave my head completely for 10years now. So it actually helps me with my scalp. .


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## lsg (Feb 26, 2022)

I can only go on my own results with cp shampoo bars and my hair.  It has not been good.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Feb 26, 2022)

Phantomka said:


> If I can say, maybe it helps someone, the soap bars works great for me. It really helps me with dandruff. But you have to understand that I shave my head completely for 10years now. So it actually helps me with my scalp. .


IMHO.. pretty much sums it all up


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 6, 2022)

Megan said:


> Zany, you might want to read a few of Holi's posts before apologizing to them...it's really hard to discern who started what or why the conversation even went where it did...but from my POV gentle education was met with a very combative attitude. Afterwards, there was a little back and forth where the tone was somewhat negative back...but they're not the victim they're making themselves out to be, especially after bringing up a hot-button issue like HP and cure.





Zany_in_CO said:


> Please read Post #26


Hi, zany. 
Thank you but do not worry, it takes much more than anyone here was capable of to make ME a victim. For this reason I never considered myself as such.  As I said before, identification of behavior does not equal emotional affectation.  Statement of scientific facts requires scientific evidence to prove incorrect rather than group support of weak biases. 
(This was the statement that ultimately got me banned) so if Im banned again.  You will know why.  I do also realize that you had been following all the posts from the beginning so you know the whole story.  Nough said.


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## Hope Ann (Mar 7, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> Statement of scientific facts requires scientific evidence to prove incorrect rather than group support of weak biases.  (This was the statement that ultimately got me banned) so if Im banned again.  You will know why.



What scientific evidence did you present for your HP claims?  Unnamed "experts" whose credentials can't be examined isn't evidence.  Since you've started back up on the subject again, it would appear that you're determined to be argumentative about it and just in general.

Hope


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