# Attempt #1 Pine tar



## Ant (Jul 24, 2020)

First attempt at making pine tar soap. Absolutely a 

I did the method of splitting the oils, mixing the pine tar into one half of split oils, then added my eo/fo to. Second half of oils I mixed the lye solution into, brought to emulsion, then mixed in by hand 2 tbsps of achivated charcoal. Was at a light trace.

I got impatient and mixed oils and lye solution at 120f temp. Wish I had waited til room temperature. Grrrr.

Added the pine tar oil mix to the light trace batter, stirred by hand.

It was this beautiful, shiny very fluid black mixture for probably 20 seconds then BAM! Within 5 more seconds of stirring it turned to thicccccck batter. Got half of it into the mold, I was using my hands to smoosh it down. It was already taking the shape of the bottom of the bowl by the time I got to the bottom half of mixture.

It looks so bad. Had shiny chunks of soap, then this really gritty looking batter. Just looked under the lid and its pooling little bubbles of something on top.

How can I save it and make it presentable if whatever is pooling reabsorbs?





 What should i have done instead? Other than soaping at room temp.


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## Obsidian (Jul 24, 2020)

I think temp played a big part. You should have soaped as cool as possible to help slow down the seize.
How much PT did you use and what scent? 

I'd wrap your soap and try to get a good gel going on, it can help get everything stuck together if your batter was chuncky going in the mold.
I've even stirred gelling soap in the mold just to make sure any chunky bits were mixed in well. I generally use a chop stick and the soap comes out looking like HP.


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## Ant (Jul 24, 2020)

I'm kicking myself in the rear for soaping at that temp. So annoyed with myself for wanting to rush it. I knew it was a bad idea but severely underestimated how FAST it moved once the pine tar mixture was added. 

I used 10% pine tar for the recipe, which was 3.5 oz.

Used 1 oz of orange 10x eo, 1 oz mahagonny fo which is a well behaved fo, and a little bit of litsea cubeba eo. Didn't measure but probably .5 oz of that, trying to get rid of it.

Didn't know gelling soap gets liquidity, will put the heating pad to it now.


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## Obsidian (Jul 24, 2020)

Ant said:


> I'm kicking myself in the rear for soaping at that temp. So annoyed with myself for wanting to rush it. I knew it was a bad idea but severely underestimated how FAST it moved once the pine tar mixture was added.
> 
> I used 10% pine tar for the recipe, which was 3.5 oz.
> 
> ...



That is a very reasonable amount of pt and the scent blend shouldn't have caused any issues, so yep, temps was the likely culprit.

If it gets hot enough during gel, it will be like cake batter. You can gently try to insert a chop stick straight down, if there is resistance then its too solid to mix.
You don't have to mix it but it can help, it can also make a mess lol.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 24, 2020)

Even if you'd make the next batch on the cooler side, you might have only gotten the same 20 seconds of grace as you got with this batch. But I agree with the others that you should do everything you can to keep the rodeo as calm and slow as possible by soaping cooler. 

Also when you see the batter go from glossy to not quite as glossy, it's time to stop stirring IMMEDIATELY and pour. At that point, there's no more time for even one more go-round -- get 'er in the mold.

Lastly, don't judge a loaf of soap before it's cut. It actually doesn't look all that bad for pine tar. 

Welcome to the Pine Tar Soaper's Club. You've passed your initiation!


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## Ant (Jul 24, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> If it gets hot enough during gel, it will be like cake batter. You can gently try to insert a chop stick straight down, if there is resistance then its too solid to mix.
> You don't have to mix it but it can help, it can also make a mess lol.



Thank you for the advice to attempt some beautification. I have it wrapped in a heating pad along with some towels and aluminum foil. Will see if it gets gooey enough for that some chopstick maneuvers.


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## Ant (Jul 24, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> Even if you'd make the next batch on the cooler side, you might have only gotten the same 20 seconds of grace as you got with this batch.



Ahhhhhh! That is not good news lol will need to destress after making pine tar soaps. High stakes and nail biting. Will definitely soap as cool as I can get it for the next batch and pray.



DeeAnna said:


> Also when you see the batter go from glossy to not quite as glossy, it's time to stop stirring IMMEDIATELY and pour. At that point, there's no more time for even one more go-round -- get 'er in the mold.



Thank you so much for this insight! I was concerned that I wouldn't get the oil/tar mixture incorporated properly so kept stirring past that mark. Wasn't sure when I needed to stop. 



DeeAnna said:


> Lastly, don't judge a loaf of soap before it's cut. It actually doesn't look all that bad for pine tar.



I don't mind an ugly duckling scenario... Concerning for me to see the liquid on top, thought perhaps it could have been the pine tar but it doesn't feel sticky.



DeeAnna said:


> Welcome to the Pine Tar Soaper's Club. You've passed your initiation!



Thanks  In with the cool kids now lol Honestly I'm not a huge fan of how pine tar smells but OH wanted me to try it and make it for him.


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## Obsidian (Jul 24, 2020)

Make sure to peak often, shouldn't take long to gel and you don't want it overheating and volcanoing.

I hate the smell of pine tar, smells like burning rubber to me but I do need to make a batch. I'm gonna double up on stink and add neem to mine

When I make pt, I mix the tar with just enough oil to thin it out, not half the batch. That way there isn't as much oil to get mixed in, not sure if it really makes a difference. I've had very well behaved pt batches, I've also had to pack it in the mold by hand.


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## Ant (Jul 24, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> Make sure to peak often, shouldn't take long to gel and you don't want it overheating and volcanoing



How long roughly do you usually force gel for with a heating pad? I just took a peak, the top was still hard, but its squishy under it like a shell. I poked a chopstick down in it and the bottom was soft (closest to the heating pad) will wait to see if the top softens more.



Obsidian said:


> I hate the smell of pine tar, smells like burning rubber to me but I do need to make a batch. I'm gonna double up on stink and add neem to mine



This brand has a deep, liquid smoke smell to me. Definitely a hint of rubber but smells like funky smoke. I like how someone smells after they have been barbecuing, flannel shirt, cold night, bearded man vibes. But this is like days worth of smoke lol



Obsidian said:


> When I make pt, I mix the tar with just enough oil to thin it out, not half the batch. That way there isn't as much oil to get mixed in




I think I will try that with a third batch. Soap at room temp first and stir way less and see if that turns out okay first. Then add that variable in to see how things are affected. 

Seriously though, thank you for giving your input. I appreciate you sharing your experiences with me.


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## Obsidian (Jul 24, 2020)

@Ant  I never use a heat pad, just wrap in thick towels. The top will usually stay crusty like that, I just break it up and poke it down in the hot center.
Really, since its in a good gel, you should just leave it alone. Mixing it up won't improve the looks and not necessary unless you have pools of liquid on top.

What brand of tar do you have? I'm going to order brickmore and see if its less rubbery then the other stuff I had.


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## Ant (Jul 24, 2020)

I ended up leaving it alone, top stayed crusty the whole time. Suppose I could plane the top to get a more finished look. Still has the droplets on it as of now.

The brand I bought was one of the ones deeanna suggested on her website.






						Pine tar soap | Soapy Stuff
					

Classic Bells restores antique sleigh bells and manufactures bell home decor. Wholesale. Retail.




					classicbells.com
				




It has a really really strong scent, not sure if you would like it any better.



			https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07PV1NJT7?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title


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## DeeAnna (Jul 24, 2020)

Oooh! I'm glad to see have the Auson "small batch" pine tar back in stock. It wasn't on the market for quite some time.


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## Obsidian (Jul 24, 2020)

That pine tar is way too expensive for me. I just got the cheap stuff, lol.

If the drops don't absorb back in, you can dab them off with a paper towel.

You could always paint some dry gold mica across the tops, that would fancy it up some without having to cut any off.


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## Ant (Jul 24, 2020)

Pretty penny for sure. I don't sell soap so not too worried about the price. Hope this doesn't expire fast because it would probably take me years to use it all up. 

Haven't tried mica painting yet so that would be fun to try. Good idea


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## Obsidian (Jul 25, 2020)

Ant said:


> Pretty penny for sure. I don't sell soap so not too worried about the price. Hope this doesn't expire fast because it would probably take me years to use it all up.
> 
> Haven't tried mica painting yet so that would be fun to try. Good idea



I don't think it ever expires. When I first mentioned making pt soap to my grandmother, I wondered where I might buy it. She proceeds to produce a can she's had for 20+ years. Took me another 4 years or so to use it up.


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## Ant (Jul 25, 2020)

Thats a cute story, such a grandma thing. Lol I didn't put a dent in the can. I wonder, did she make pine tar soap too? Maybe she made it once and the smell put her off. I'm hoping the smell mellows out. I'm in a fifth wheel so its close quarters.


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## Obsidian (Jul 25, 2020)

No, she never used it in soap though she did make soap. The memories of mixing giant bowls of soap for hours in a snowbank by hand is what got me interested in soaping in the first place.

She had horses years back, sheep too. The smell  will mellow a lot though it will always retain that smoky scent. 
You think that is bad, you should try neem sometime. Smells like rotten onions, luckily it cures out.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 25, 2020)

I use the expensive Auson stuff because most of it goes to clean my husband. He loves the stuff, so I make this soap for him as a special treat. (And if I have to smell it in the shower, I want to smell a campfire, not burning rubber!)

I sell a few bars here and there, and I do charge more per bar for the pine tar soap than I do for the others. 

If you don't use other fragrance in PT soap (I don't), the expensive pine tar costs about the same as using an FO that costs $0.06 per gram (about $30 per 16 oz), and the PT is taking the place of other fats that would otherwise add to the batch cost. I agree that's spendy, but not waaaay out of the realm of reason.


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## Ant (Jul 25, 2020)

Thats such a sweet experience. The time that I spent with my grandma are my most cherished memories.

I haven't tried anything neem, I think it has skin benefits too? Onions heating up with that lye doesn't sound appealing.

The smell already has died down. Yesterday it was so overpowering I had to vacate for a few hours. I can't smell the orange at all but the BB mahagonny is coming through the most. I've only used the popular eos like orange, lemongrass, lavender, litsea cubeba.

Any recommendations for a good eo/fo with a nice strong pinetree smell?

They didn't come out as bad as I pictured they would, deeanna was right about judging too soon. Your suggested gelling saved them. I did end up cutting the tops off. The shape was this big U from shoving it in there lol the sides are ugly but won't plane those or else they turn into tiny bars. Some of the liquid reabsorbed but blotted off the rest. They aren't as dark as pictured, but a very deep brown.


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## Ant (Jul 25, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> I use the expensive Auson stuff because most of it goes to clean my husband. He loves the stuff, so I make this soap for him as a special treat. (And if I have to smell it in the shower, I want to smell a campfire, not burning rubber!)



I don't notice any rubber smell coming from the Auson brand you recommended. Out of can, super strong but right now its mellowed out considerably than yesterday. I'm getting the smoke and the fo. If the smoke dies down more, I think he will like it.

He tried one from Dr. Squatch and that had this great piney tree smell he loved, I thought it was nice too but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't use much pine tar In it, like for label appeal. Manly man use pine tar as I roar from mountain marketing lol Used one from Grandpas company and that one he didn't care for, strong smoked meat smell.


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## atiz (Jul 25, 2020)

These look great! Like black granite or something....
I'm thinking of trying to make a pine tar soap. Never done it, and will see if I get to it, but sounds so interesting!


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## Ant (Jul 25, 2020)

atiz said:


> These look great! Like black granite or something....
> I'm thinking of trying to make a pine tar soap. Never done it, and will see if I get to it, but sounds so interesting!



They aren't as black as they look in pic, more like a deep, deep blackish chocolate brown stout. I used 2 tbsps of Mad Micas Activated coconut charcoal powder as the colorant. I think next time I make this, I'll use a mica or black oxide for color to get more of a black instead of brown.



DeeAnna said:


> Also when you see the batter go from glossy to not quite as glossy, it's time to stop stirring IMMEDIATELY and pour. At that point, there's no more time for even one more go-round -- get 'er in the mold.



This is invaluable information if you decide to do it. I personally had a lot of fun making it.


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## Obsidian (Jul 25, 2020)

I would also be ok paying more if I had someone special to make tar soap for but no one else will touch them. Brown soap seems to turn most people off.  Might have to try the auson sometime, it does sound nicer.

@Ant  I don't know if any of the neem properties survive the lye but its worth a try. I actually really like the scent once its cured, kinda like black tea.

My favorite pine FO is balsam pine from natures garden. It smells the most realistic, not like a fake Christmas tree.

Your bars look great, glad they turned out well. I'd stay away from Dr. Squatch, I've read some pretty bad reviews that question the authenticity of their oils.


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## linne1gi (Jul 25, 2020)

Ant said:


> First attempt at making pine tar soap. Absolutely a
> 
> I did the method of splitting the oils, mixing the pine tar into one half of split oils, then added my eo/fo to. Second half of oils I mixed the lye solution into, brought to emulsion, then mixed in by hand 2 tbsps of achivated charcoal. Was at a light trace.
> 
> ...


I'm so glad you posted this!  I have just ordered Pine Tar to make my first Pine Tar soap.  I had heard to not stick blend at all - just whisk.  Did you stick blend?


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## Ant (Jul 25, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> I'm so glad you posted this! I have just ordered Pine Tar to make my first Pine Tar soap. I had heard to not stick blend at all - just whisk. Did you stick blend?



I followed the method that deeanna described on her website here under the "how to make pine tar soap" second.  I split the oils in half, mixed the tar with one half of oils and added the fo into it. Mixed the lye solution into the other half and only stick blended that half to a very light trace. 

She describes it fully in her post. Don't do what I did and soap too hot and then over stirred it by hand lol


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## Becky1024 (Jul 25, 2020)

I've never made PT soap before so just asking - could you plop the batch in a crockpot and HP it to thin it down enough to put into a mold?


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## Elise Noel (Jul 25, 2020)

They look awesome @Ant !  I really like pine tar soap.  Yes it is smelly, but an attractive smelly (for me anyways).  My formulation has aloe and colloidal oatmeal in it, but I find that it “melts” faster than all my other soap formulas.  Not sure if it’s the formula or the pine tar. Anyone else finds that is disappears faster than regular soap?


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## linne1gi (Jul 25, 2020)

Becky1024 said:


> I've never made PT soap before so just asking - could you plop the batch in a crockpot and HP it to thin it down enough to put into a mold?


There are people who HP pine tar soap.


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## Ant (Jul 25, 2020)

Becky1024 said:


> I've never made PT soap before so just asking - could you plop the batch in a crockpot and HP it to thin it down enough to put into a mold?



Thats beyond my skill level, I've never hotprocessed before. Hopefully someone else more experienced can chime in for you.



Elise Noel said:


> Anyone else finds that is disappears faster than regular soap?



Don't know from experience, but from what I've read pine tar makes a softer soap overall and more soluble.


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## goat soap rulz! (Jul 25, 2020)

I dont know about yall, bet we use pine tar to repel flies around the farm, and that stuff smells horrible! Yall are using it in soap? Does it still smell like burning rubber?


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## atiz (Jul 25, 2020)

goat soap rulz! said:


> I dont know about yall, bet we use pine tar to repel flies around the farm, and that stuff smells horrible! Yall are using it in soap? Does it still smell like burning rubber?


I haven't made one (yet!), but from what I've read I gather that how bad it smells really depends on the kind of pine tar. Some are described as more "burnt rubbery" than others. 
I'm getting more and more curious about this, will really need to get some pine tar...


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## Ant (Jul 25, 2020)

What atiz said. Depends on what brand you use. I imagine how much you use along with what fo/eo that's used that compliments the pine tar smell will affect the end result. 

The Auson brand I used has a smoke smell rather than the rubber. Today, the smell isn't as strong thank god. Seriously thought it wouldn't be usable but if it keeps mellowing I will be happy lol Will be curious how it develops over the next few weeks.


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## lynneandress (Jul 25, 2020)

Ant said:


> I don't notice any rubber smell coming from the Auson brand you recommended. Out of can, super strong but right now its mellowed out considerably than yesterday. I'm getting the smoke and the fo. If the smoke dies down more, I think he will like it.
> 
> He tried one from Dr. Squatch and that had this great piney tree smell he loved, I thought it was nice too but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't use much pine tar In it, like for label appeal. Manly man use pine tar as I roar from mountain marketing lol Used one from Grandpas company and that one he didn't care for, strong smoked meat smell.




Out of stock already =(


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## Obsidian (Jul 25, 2020)

Even the more burnt rubber smelling pine tar mellows with cure


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## RacerSpuffy (Jul 26, 2020)

I’ve had success with warming up the pine tar to around 100-105 (for ease of sucking into a large syringe). I prep all the oils and lye water first and then mix them and stick blend. Just when I think it’s emulsified I stop stick blending and get out a hand whisk. Then I take the pine tar syringe and squirt it into the emulsification and stir with the whisk. Once it’s a uniform color (10s or so) I pour. May need multiple syringes depending on how much you are making. I got the largest one I could find at the same place I got my pine tar, Tractor Supply Company.


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## Ant (Jul 26, 2020)

RacerSpuffy said:


> Then I take the pine tar syringe and squirt it into the emulsification and stir with the whisk.



Do you ever have issues with getting the pine tar thoroughly mixed before it sets up? I was worried about spots of free floating pine tar when I made that.


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## Malleebird (Jul 26, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> Also when you see the batter go from glossy to not quite as glossy, it's time to stop stirring IMMEDIATELY and pour. At that point, there's no more time for even one more go-round -- get 'er in the mold.


DeeAnna, I wondered if you would have any idea why my pine tar did what it did last week ?  I posted in "What soapy things...." #16,352.  As I said in the post I followed your instructions to the letter, only tweaking the oils a bit according to what I had. The pine tar I used was 100% Pure Stockholm Tar.
It unmolded and cut beautifully in the end... too beautifully actually   It looks nothing remotely like the other pictures I've seen !
I was just a little disappointed in the colour and thought that I would up the pine tar to 15% next time.
Thinking back...and reading the link you put in to David Fischer, the only thing I didn't do was to stir the pine tar first.  Could this have been the problem ?


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## DeeAnna (Jul 26, 2020)

I'm not quite sure what your specific concern is. Would be nice if you'd just summarized the other post here. But the picture makes me wonder -- are you puzzled that the color is lighter than other people's pine tar soap?

You mention "pure Stockholm tar" but I have no idea what that product is, especially since you're located in Australia and might be sourcing this product from companies not selling in the US. A direct link to the exact product would be nice.

Assuming your concern is about the color -- No, it won't make a difference whether you stir the pine tar into the oils or stir it into the batter as the last ingredient added. The problem that can happen by stirring the PT into the batter at the end is the PT might not get mixed into the batter well enough. This won't greatly affect the overall color, however.

Most of the time pine tar soap is pretty dark, but some is honey colored like yours. The color variation may be due to the specific product used and perhaps even to differences from batch to batch. The color may also vary from company to company based on how each manufacturer does the pyrolysis (the heating process that creates the tar). Also, some "pine tar" is not pure pine tar, or it is a tar made from woods other than pine (birch tar is an example). 

If you don't like the color, I'd try another brand. It's not a defect -- it's just a normal variation in a product made from natural raw materials. I actually like this color, but that's just me.


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## Malleebird (Jul 26, 2020)

Thanks @DeeAnna... I'm thrilled if you think my soap is Okay   I was just so worried that I'd done something major wrong when......after I added the lye I had to stir for 45 minutes before I noticed any change at all, and even then it just change from dark chocolate to milk chocolate and was still glossy.
Here is the link to the fact sheet about the pine tar I used.


			http://equinade.com/pdfs/FS_stockholmtar.pdf


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## Malleebird (Jul 26, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> No, it won't make a difference whether you stir the pine tar into the oils or stir it into the batter as the last ingredient added. The problem that can happen by stirring the PT into the batter at the end is the PT might not get mixed into the batter well enough. This won't greatly affect the overall color, however.


Just re read your response @DeeAnna.... sorry I had meant that I didn't stir the container of pine tar before I used it.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 26, 2020)

I honestly think the soap is fine, @Malleebird


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## RacerSpuffy (Jul 28, 2020)

Ant said:


> Do you ever have issues with getting the pine tar thoroughly mixed before it sets up? I was worried about spots of free floating pine tar when I made that.


I did have concerns at first, but it turned out to not be an issue. I was able to mix it well.


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## Nanette (Jul 30, 2020)

Ant said:


> Thats such a sweet experience. The time that I spent with my grandma are my most cherished memories.
> 
> I haven't tried anything neem, I think it has skin benefits too? Onions heating up with that lye doesn't sound appealing.
> 
> ...


They are lovely, for a pine tar bar.!!!


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