# Needing help on Water Discount



## Jakeedin (Sep 15, 2013)

Having worked on the beginner's water ratio for now a number of months. I am now ready to learn water discounting to cut down curing time. Although, I am confident with the basics of soap-making but I am petrified in reducing my water. I think I have read too much on the net and now I am all confused.

So, I have decided to ask for your guidance now.

Using the soapcalc.net, I have devised an example recipe so you experienced soapers can teach me.

CO 70degrees 20%, OOP 50%, Castor Oil 10%, Rice Bran 20%. Based on 800g oil my lye required would be 107g & water 304g.

Now take it fom here. How do I discount my water? and what should I be expecting.  

BTW, Thank you for all your help in advance.


----------



## DeeAnna (Sep 15, 2013)

Simple. In step 3 in SoapCalc, select "lye concentration" and set the lye concentration to either 33% or 40% -- these are probably the most commonly used percentages.

I usually use a 33% lye concentration, but I have used the more concentrated 40% for a recipe with mostly liquid oils. Although you can go as high as 50% NaOH concentration, I don't recommend it because it can be difficult to get the NaOH properly dissolved.

FWIW, I never use the "water as % of oils" that is the default in Soapcalc. I always use solution concentration. 

The Water:Lye Ratio is fine to use too IMO -- it's just an alternative way of stating the concentration of the lye solution. 33% is a 2:1 ratio. 40% is a 1.5:1 ratio. 50% is a 1:1 ratio.

More concentrated lye solution => faster trace (not good when doing fancy swirls, no big deal for many recipes, and really nice for recipes with mostly liquid oils), soap is firmer when unmolding, less total volume of soap batter in the mold, somewhat lower moisture content in cured soap. (Another edit: But the cure time is essentially the same. This is not a shortcut for the cure time.)

edit: Gosh, please don't be fearful of this. I have never used "full water" (about 28% lye concentration), and I have never had a volcano, cracked soap, separated layers, or any of the other tragedies that are attributed to using "discounted water". On top of that, my husband still loves me even though I make soap, I still have all my various body parts, and my friends and family still beg for samples.


----------



## kellistarr (Sep 15, 2013)

Assuming that you've ran all of this through a lye calculator, you would begin reducing by going back to soapmaker 101 and make sure that you're properly suited up, goggles, gloves, long sleeves etc...  because you are working with very concentrated lye solution by adding less water.  Use your calculator to gradually reduce your water.  If you're using full water Ex:  38% you might try 35%.  This is the way I reduced, gradually without using fragrance oil (as I see you have not included) to see what reduction does to the soap mixture (does it trace rapidly, does it volcano etc...)  As far as reducing cure time, for me, this is not what discount water is all about.  Soap still needs cure time.  Cure time is not just about if the soap is ready to use.  Cure times adds many more benefits to the soap; so don't think that you're going to automatically receive these benefits by discounting water.
Water discount allows for my soap to be hard (early on) less soap shrinkage, it allows for a clean cut when slicing soap, much better unmolding, great if I need to ship my soap before its cured etc.....  But it does not take the place of what cure time brings to the soap.  

I'm sure others will chime in.  If you do a search, you will find much information that will help.


----------



## Jakeedin (Sep 15, 2013)

DeeAnna & Kellistarr thanks for the quick response. Both of you said the same thing. By reducing water it does not quicken the cure time. That is something that I have learnt. Where as some other soap pages advises it differently. I am gonna trust you two as I have read both of your advices to others on this forum in the past. I'm gonna give a go and see what happens. One other thing. When can you not discount water. Fancy swirling is one but, should you discount water with whipped soap, piped soap etc?


----------



## sistrum (Sep 15, 2013)

I've never used more than a 33% lye solution and can swirl and do everything else just fine. Including whipped soaps and HP ect. Someday I might use "full water" just to see.


----------



## DeeAnna (Sep 15, 2013)

"...When can you not discount water...."

I personally agree with Sistrum -- I never use "full water". For example, I made a batch of pine tar soap and another of beer soap this afternoon. I used a 33% lye solution for both CP batches and all went well. I haven't done a lot of HP soap, but the few I've done, I used a 33% solution as well.

Some people who want the maximum amount of time to make fancy soap designs say they use "full water" as well as a recipe high in liquid oils to get more time to work. I don't do that kind of thing, so I don't have an opinion about that.


----------



## jenneelk (Sep 15, 2013)

Now that I've tried water discount of 33% I'll not go back unless I'm making the 'fancy' stuff like peacock/lots of layers/column/etc. 

I've also been heating up my soap (not to the HP point) which I did to try a new idea and now I really like it. It sets up really fast but you just have to watch it and cool it down after pouring.


----------



## judymoody (Sep 15, 2013)

I use a 33% lye solution as well which is roughly 1:2 for lye:water   Nothing dangerous or crazy has happened.  Observe normal safety precautions - no need to break out the hazmat suit.  I have time to layer and swirl.  If I am working with faster oils or fragrances I will whisk or stir instead of stick blending.

The main advantage is that your bars are less likely to warp as they cure and the soap is easier to unmold cleanly.  However, soap gels at lower temperatures using full water so if you like a full gel you may have to nudge it along with extra insulation or some time in a preheated low oven.


----------



## jenneelk (Sep 15, 2013)

Ooh that's good to know! I didn't know about the difference with the geling and I do gel a lot... my recent batches I didn't want to and thought for sure they would since I cooked to 150 and one started to overflow in the mold.. but no gel even though I got it to fridge rather late.
 So on the same kind of thought.. are higher discounts more prone to overheat? Like if I normally do a 170 oven turned off to gel should I leave it on for a bit since the water is discounted or do I risk overheat more since less water?


----------



## MzMolly65 (Mar 5, 2014)

bumping an old thread in hopes of an answer to the post ^^


----------



## twinkiesmommy2009 (May 28, 2014)

Bump.  Also hoping for an answer.


----------



## DeeAnna (May 29, 2014)

"...are higher discounts more prone to overheat? Like if I normally do a 170 oven turned off to gel should I leave it on for a bit since the water is discounted or do I risk overheat more since less water? ..."

You mean an answer to this ^^^ question from Jennee? (I thought the OP's question had been answered pretty well.)

I almost always do CPOP with my soaps -- 170 deg F for 1 hour. I make pretty much all of my soap with a 33% lye solution. With one exception, they do not show any signs of overheating.  

The only time I had some small cracks was recently when I used Beck's beer for the first time as the water phase. Not sure why that happened, but there ya go.


----------



## cmzaha (May 29, 2014)

I usually soap with a 33-35% solution. LOL, a few days ago I accidently soaped with a 50% solution. Yup went into super thick trace quickly but go it into the mold. I forgot to add in my extra liquid.


----------

