# FDA Warning Letter to doTerra



## shunt2011 (Sep 24, 2014)

This is a good reminder why we should follow the rules.

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2014/ucm415809.htm

 They also got Young Living

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2014/ucm416023.htm


----------



## hmlove1218 (Sep 24, 2014)

Really nice to see the FDA enforcing the rules. I was invited to a Young Living class just last night and was kind of taken aback by all the claims and application advice (ie. NEAT).


----------



## shunt2011 (Sep 24, 2014)

I've been approached at a couple shows trying to get me to purchase their stuff for my soaps.  I told them I could get better FO's  for a much better price.  They tried to give me their speech about therapeutic etc and I just told them to move on.


----------



## hmlove1218 (Sep 24, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> I've been approached at a couple shows trying to get me to purchase their stuff for my soaps.  I told them I could get better FO's  for a much better price.  They tried to give me their speech about therapeutic etc and I just told them to move on.



I had that experience last night. The girls mom wanted to try and tell me that the EOs that I buy are of a lesser quality than the YL oils. Out of respect for the girl and her home, I did not argue with her mom that there is no such thing as "theraputic grade" and the other marketing crap that YL preaches.


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

Personally I think this is typical FDA stupid behavior. Its quite simple that they dont want ppl to use EO's for medical purposes as it takes away money from the big pharmaceutical companies. They dont want ppl to be healthy, sick ppl make them more money.

And where you are right that there are no 'grades' in eo's, most companies do not sell pure eo's. most are diluted or even just a mixture of chemicals to make them smell like eo's. Iv spent a very long time and lots of money trying to find genuine eo's. In the UK I'v only found 4 sellers, and 2 of them are do terra and forever living. (no im not a rep lol)


----------



## Seawolfe (Sep 24, 2014)

holistichonnies said:


> Personally I think this is typical FDA stupid behavior. Its quite simple that they dont want ppl to use EO's for medical purposes as it takes away money from the big pharmaceutical companies. They dont want ppl to be healthy, sick ppl make them more money.


I'm sorry, but I find this anti-science rhetoric crazy making. Pretending that the EO makers under fire are altruistic, just trying to save the world, and aren't out to make money just like the big bad pharmaceutical companies a bit naive.

 The idea that EO's work better than mainstream medicine, and that big pharma is keeping them down simply isn't true. If the EO's actually worked as well as conventional medicines in clinical trials, well, then they would simply become accepted as medicine, just as aspirin, yew tree, and lithium have become in the past. It's one thing to make claims, but it's really not that difficult to show scientific proof. 

I'm sorry, my mother was a wholistic health educator, and then as a cancer patient she went down that rabbit hole, and I learned how predatory the natural healing community can be.


----------



## snappyllama (Sep 24, 2014)

Good on the FDA for enforcing the rules.  Honestly, how long did the companies think they could get away with making dangerous, unsubstantiated claims?

Ebola? Cancer? Dementia? Heart Disease? Parkinson's?

If you claim that your product is medicine, be prepared to have it treated as such.


----------



## squeakycleanuk (Sep 24, 2014)

I would have to disagree with you there holistichonnies. I'm also from the UK and I'm aware of plenty reputable producers of pure EOs. Admittedly the suppliers I buy from aren't available to the general public (only to herbal practitioners or equivalent) but these are real, good quality oils produced by reputable herbal manufacturers. I am not familiar with young living and doterra oils personally but over the years I have read some pretty dubious stuff about the way they use the oils i.e. advising doses much higher than any qualified aromatherapist would. I think its about time there practices were looked at more closely.


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I base my findings on personal experience.

Since I stopped using over counter drugs I hardly ever get unwell. If I do, I use my eo's and they work fine.

My 2 youngest children have NEVER been given any drugs and I can honestly say they have never been ill, not even a cold.

But its each to their own. I know i would never trust the FDA.


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

squeakycleanuk said:


> I think its about time there practices were looked at more closely.



I highly agree - if the eo trade was monitored more closely and had 'standards' to meet then it would hopefully weedly out all those fake companies.

Iv lost some much money from companies selling fake or diluted oils


----------



## Susie (Sep 24, 2014)

holistichonnies said:


> Personally I think this is typical FDA stupid behavior. Its quite simple that they dont want ppl to use EO's for medical purposes as it takes away money from the big pharmaceutical companies. They dont want ppl to be healthy, sick ppl make them more money.
> 
> And where you are right that there are no 'grades' in eo's, most companies do not sell pure eo's. most are diluted or even just a mixture of chemicals to make them smell like eo's. Iv spent a very long time and lots of money trying to find genuine eo's. In the UK I'v only found 4 sellers, and 2 of them are do terra and forever living. (no im not a rep lol)



The bottom line is that if they do business in the USA, then they are agreeing to follow the law and regulations of the USA.  They are not.  They have been caught.  It is no different than someone breaking the law in any other manner.

And as far as the whole anti-FDA, anti-big pharmaceutical rant goes, you and I are enjoying much longer lives than our ancestors did that only used EOs and other "natural" remedies.  Thanks MOSTLY to big pharmaceutical companies.  Many of whom are located in the USA, and therefore regulated by the FDA.  So, I will take my FDA and our big pharmaceutical companies' word about what a medication actually does because I KNOW the hoops that each drug has to go through to be approved.  And I KNOW that they are not allowed to make claims that they can't prove.


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

I understand the laws but in reality the FDA are not all they are cracked up to be. Trust me Iv done so much of my own research on this over the years and my own finding have be quite shocking.

Think about all the things the FDA has approved and then had to stop producing/selling due to finding them unsafe during use.

The most recent being the HPV vaccination they started giving to teenage girls.

I think these eo companies have been very stupid in how they market their products as they do not adhere to USA law .... thats their stupidity.

Also we may be living longer but we are living much more sickly lives. I believe we are living longer due to better living conditions not drugs.


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 24, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> I've been approached at a couple shows trying to get me to purchase their stuff for my soaps.  I told them I could get better FO's  for a much better price.  They tried to give me their speech about therapeutic etc and I just told them to move on.



DT/YL: Their prices are absurd and ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. 10ml/$30??? WTH??? The buzzwords: 'wellness', pure, healing properties, etc. Some of the claims are very sad. Lots of people can't afford certain health practices so they spend what little they have on something that is supposed to help for less. Fad claims kinda hurt my heart when I see it. I know others put their hope in things that may help. I had a pretty bad stomach illness for years and used to look into this stuff. Did you know that some EOs are used for cooking?? (Like a drop or two in a soup etc)

Before I use EOs or plant material in a soap -topical/rinse off use- I try to at least study the compositions chemically and even medical journal research before giving one away/even maybe sell. 

There are things that work out there sans hype. Someone mentioned a yew tree in this post; years ago taxol being the hopeful primary compound for cancer treatment. I haven't read about this in years so I don't know the status or any research updates. But one thing that is an example of natural success is Hibiscus Sabdariffa. Most latino or middle eastern markets will have the rock hard dried core of these flowers sold in bulk. The results in the following studies are worded carefully - very useful but not used to treat, has a great effect but not used for treatment, can lower blood pressure but notused for bp treatment, and other benefits concerning blood vessels etc. 

Examples from two studies: 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22678012 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0030310/


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

goji_fries said:


> DT/YL:
> 
> Did you know that some EOs are used for cooking?? (Like a drop or two in a soup etc)



I use EO's in cooking  Lemon is my fav, I have a drop in my Tea most morning. I used lavender recently after I had a tooth removed and it didnt heal as the dentist left part of my tooth in my gum :x ... the lavender taste is horrid tho lol


----------



## bodhi (Sep 24, 2014)

Seawolfe said:


> The idea that EO's work better than mainstream medicine, and that big pharma is keeping them down simply isn't true. If the EO's actually worked as well as conventional medicines in clinical trials, well, then they would simply become accepted as medicine, just as aspirin, yew tree, and lithium have become in the past. It's one thing to make claims, but it's really not that difficult to show scientific proof.



I dislike doTerra about as much as i dislike the fda,  but this isnt really true.  If a substance can not be patented, it will never become a drug and will continue to be supressed -and to show scientific proof acceptable to the fda is very difficult.


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 24, 2014)

P.S. Over the years, perscriotion drugs/painkillers began to destroy my liver. My liver is extremely bad right now. I cannot take medication and have to go the herbal route (dandelion root, leaf, milk thistle, flush, etc.). But luckily, I read, that the liver is the only one organ that can regenerate itself.  It will take time tho.


----------



## shunt2011 (Sep 24, 2014)

You are entitled to your opinion.  I too have faced in two close cases who chose to go the holistic way and in turn spend a boatload of money and passed away much quicker than with just minimal healthcare.  I find it liable to those who prey on others weaknesses.  I think one of the reasons the FDA jumped on them is because they were making claims that their stuff would cure or prevent ebola.  I believe in holistic practices to a point.  Primarily spiritual.   I also feel that if a person chooses to take risks that if fine but don't push it onto others.  YL and doTerra were predatory in their sales pitches.  I believe we are living longer due to healthcare being available and taking better care of ourselves. I don't see EO's curing cancer or diabetes or other terminal illnesses.  Yes, the pharmaceutical companies are raping people on the cost of the medications and healthcare cost.  I've spent the last 36 year in the medical field.  I too am happy to see the FDA get on these companies and their  representatives.


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 24, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> You are entitled to your opinion.  I too have faced in two close cases who chose to go the holistic way and in turn spend a boatload of money and passed away much quicker than with just minimal healthcare.  I find it liable to those who prey on others weaknesses.  I think one of the reasons the FDA jumped on them is because they were making claims that their stuff would cure or prevent ebola.  I believe in holistic practices to a point.  Primarily spiritual.   I also feel that if a person chooses to take risks that if fine but don't push it onto others.  YL and doTerra were predatory in their sales pitches.  I believe we are living longer due to healthcare being available and taking better care of ourselves. I don't see EO's curing cancer or diabetes or other terminal illnesses.  Yes, the pharmaceutical companies are raping people on the cost of the medications and healthcare cost.  I've spent the last 36 year in the medical field.  I too am happy to see the FDA get on these companies and their  representatives.



The ebola claim was crazy.... Ebola cannot live in cinnamon and oregano oil. <paraphrase>


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> I also feel that if a person chooses to take risks that if fine but don't push it onto others.  YL and doTerra were predatory in their sales pitches.



is this not what pharmaceutical companies do tho? Pushing their drugs onto ppl, they are also predatory. Scaring people into thinking they NEED to take this drug or that drug. People are too quick to reach of a bottle of pills these days. They get a headache and instantly start popping pills to get rid of it, when in reality most normal everyday headaches can be cured by a glass of water.


----------



## bodhi (Sep 24, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> I too have faced in two close cases who chose to go the holistic way and in turn spend a boatload of money and passed away much quicker than with just minimal healthcare.


  I have an extensive medical background as well and I have found that when a body passes along can not be determined with any concrete reproducibility much in advance -regardless of their choice in methods of care.  People can get hit by busses, people can drop dead from tylenol and prescription medications, seemingly healthy people can suddenly expire for seemingly unknown reasons...



shunt2011 said:


> I find it liable to those who prey on others weaknesses.  I think one of the reasons the FDA jumped on them is because they were making claims that their stuff would cure or prevent ebola.


   I think so too, I only hope that this is not going to be the springboard needed to regulate all eo's.



shunt2011 said:


> YL and doTerra were predatory in their sales pitches. .


  Absolutely and exactly why they needed this letter, imo.


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 24, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> You are entitled to your opinion.  I too have faced in two close cases who chose to go the holistic way and in turn spend a boatload of money and passed away much quicker than with just minimal healthcare.  I find it liable to those who prey on others weaknesses.  I think one of the reasons the FDA jumped on them is because they were making claims that their stuff would cure or prevent ebola.  I believe in holistic practices to a point.  Primarily spiritual.   I also feel that if a person chooses to take risks that if fine but don't push it onto others.  YL and doTerra were predatory in their sales pitches.  I believe we are living longer due to healthcare being available and taking better care of ourselves. I don't see EO's curing cancer or diabetes or other terminal illnesses.  Yes, the pharmaceutical companies are raping people on the cost of the medications and healthcare cost.  I've spent the last 36 year in the medical field.  I too am happy to see the FDA get on these companies and their  representatives.



I dont know if you were responding to me or not. I blended two different sub-subjects. I agree with you. there are soem things that work and many are folk remedies. Thx for your posts, love em!


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

bodhi said:


> .
> 
> I think so too, I only hope that this is not going to be the springboard needed to regulate all eo's.



eo's really do need to be regulated!! :!:


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 24, 2014)

holistichonnies said:


> eo's really do need to be regulated!! :!:



With regualtion comes overregulation and fee upon fee. The best start is education and a chart showing safe usage. Max safe usages, ranges, what is photoxicity, etc. etc. If people knew the actual properties of EOs, the pseudo science bubble would not exist.  

'YARREADY KNOW. NARRMEAN.


----------



## bodhi (Sep 24, 2014)

goji_fries said:


> With rtegualtion comes fees and overregulation. the best start is education. Max safe usages, what is photoxicity, etc. etc.
> 
> 'YARREADY KNOW. NARRMEAN.



exactly.  and with regulation comes the fda breathing down the necks of everyone who uses eo's.  NO THANK YOU.   Im very concerned actually that there will be enough support of this (this being eo regulation) -despite how much they needed this stomping- that we may be headed for just that. 

and goji, yes, very careful wording is key!

pm me about the milk thistle...


----------



## pamielynn (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm glad they are getting slapped. "Wellness Advocates" are Tupperware ladies with a new bag of treats. I don't know why anyone would take medical advice from a direct sales person. "Save your co-pay - diagnose yourself!".


----------



## Dahila (Sep 24, 2014)

Ladies common sense is needed when using EO they must be diluted and I do not agree with thousand people who say some can be put on children undiluted. You can go ahead and use them for children over 12 but diluted. Mothers who use them on children without enough knowledge, base on what they  they find on internet.  They should not treat their children. No one is sure if the EO are good and undiluted, or pure.  How you suppose to check it up?
 I use them only as a help with the salves then I base on real herbs I pick up or grow myself. Sure you can go ahead and add some to soup especially if there is some grease. Why the heck add Lemon Eo to soup if you can add just real lemon? I still can not believe in some of the claims. 
Every second person on internet behave like trained herbalist.
Very often the socalled diy meds are wrong.  I would not be here if it was not big pharma either.


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 24, 2014)

bodhi said:


> exactly.  and with regulation comes the fda breathing down the necks of everyone who uses eo's.  NO THANK YOU.   Im very concerned actually that there will be enough support of this (this being eo regulation) -despite how much they needed this stomping- that we may be headed for just that.
> 
> and goji, yes, very careful wording is key!
> 
> pm me about the milk thistle...



Tried to pm, box full :think:


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 24, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> I'm glad they are getting slapped. "Wellness Advocates" are Tupperware ladies with a new bag of treats. I don't know why anyone would take medical advice from a direct sales person. "Save your co-pay - diagnose yourself!".



More times than not it equates to having Bill clinton operate on your colon -word of mouth treatments are no bueno.


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 24, 2014)

Dahila said:


> Ladies common sense is needed when using EO they must be diluted and I do not agree with thousand people who say some can be put on children undiluted. You can go ahead and use them for children over 12 but diluted. Mothers who use them on children without enough knowledge, base on what they  they find on internet.  They should not treat their children. No one is sure if the EO are good and undiluted, or pure.  How you suppose to check it up?
> I use them only as a help with the salves then I base on real herbs I pick up or grow myself. Sure you can go ahead and add some to soup especially if there is some grease. Why the heck add Lemon Eo to soup if you can add just real lemon? I still can not believe in some of the claims.
> Every second person on internet behave like trained herbalist.
> Very often the socalled diy meds are wrong.  I would not be here if it was not big pharma either.



^ True stuff. 

Dilutions! Educate ourselves! Research not opinions/advice.


----------



## cmzaha (Sep 24, 2014)

My mom would not still be here at 88 if it was not for the big pharmaceutical company that came up with a medication over 10 yrs ago, very very expensive then, that still keeps her alive today. Believe me eo's would have not kept her here today. I am tickled to see FDA came down on them. There was a Doterra rep at one of my markets. She, of course, had the cureall for everything. Sadly though the fda cannot regulate the small farmer market sellers that make claims. I see this in every market I attend.


----------



## bodhi (Sep 24, 2014)

goji_fries said:


> Educate ourselves! Research not opinions/advice.


  <<<<----- Yes, this!


----------



## Earthen_Step (Sep 24, 2014)

The FDA is a bunch of thugs using threat of law to limit freedom of speech.  To me the point is not whether or not these EO's do what the salesmen claim they do.  The point is freedom of choice.  I want to be free to look into these claims made and use the product if I feel so inclined.  Limiting the freedom to say "this EO cures ringworm!" keeps people from that choice.  The banned substances and processes to make a drug only favor big business, nothing is there to help small businesses.  It passes and everyone thinks it's fine for "consumer safety" but it's at the cost of freedom.

NO new regulations need to be created, we are over regulated!  If an aroma therapy organization wants to create a certification that would be fantastic! A voluntary stamp of approval showing your EO is up to the standard of that organization would be great.  The FDA programs should be a voluntary certification as well, not one of force.

I would love for doterra and young living to fight back.  If enough people voiced disapproval we can gain back freedoms lost.  And no,  I don't work for or use products from either of these companies.  I just want a less forceful and powerful central government and people to be liberated.  We have all been forced into the role of helpless victims and need our big all-knowing government to protect us.


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

Great post!

Here in the uk we have an independent organisation all the aromatherapy trade council. Companies pay a yearly subscription to be members of them. They make sure companies are marking their products correctly etc and also do test on eo's to monitor purity etc.


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

But I have purchased eo's from a couple of their members and they were not pure :/


----------



## snappyllama (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm going to have to disagree.  I think consumers have a right to demand accountability for the claims made by companies... any company big or small.  Self-regulation is a laughable failure. Take a look at industrial wreckage caused by a lack of regulation during the 1800's or currently in developing nations.

Regulations against lying is not a limitation of freedom.  The shysters looking to make a buck off of sick people's hopes and fears are the real evil.

I do understand that regulations do place a burden of proof on the claimants.  Personally, I think this is a good thing - a necessary thing... especially for serious claims of treatments for deadly diseases.

Say a shampoo bar cures dandruff, fine.  I probably won't believe it anyway, but it won't kill me if I use it instead of going to see an actual medical doctor.  Tell me lies about how vaccines cause illness and EOs cure cancer.  If I believe it and kill an immune-comprised kid with polio or myself with breast cancer with that bad market advice, the blood isn't on my hands for not researching enough.  The blood is on their hands and money for damages should come from their pocket.  So they are run out of business and can never hurt anyone again.  The trouble is, reactionary responses still end up with a dead baby and a dead me.

Regulation exists for a very good reason. We have to rely on some entity like the FDA to enforce those regulations.  It is part of living together in a community.

/end rant


----------



## shunt2011 (Sep 24, 2014)

snappyllama said:


> I'm going to have to disagree. I think consumers have a right to demand accountability for the claims made by companies... any company big or small. Self-regulation is a laughable failure. Take a look at industrial wreckage caused by a lack of regulation during the 1800's or currently in developing nations.
> 
> Regulations against lying is not a limitation of freedom. The shysters looking to make a buck off of sick people's hopes and fears are the real evil.
> 
> ...


 
 This is exactly how I feel.  I don't think EO's need to be regulated but I do think those making false claims and promises need to be held accountable.  I


----------



## bodhi (Sep 24, 2014)

Earthen-step, i agree with everything you are saying except that i think salespeople should be stomped on if they make such outrageous claims as their eo's cure ebola or the such, maybe not by the fda but stomped on by someone.  There is a huge difference between an herb and -therefore the oil- that has been used successfully for eons for a specific thing even without 'scientific proof', and a newly recognized disease and a bs claim.  this is just an example of course and if doterra or yl has any evidence that their eo's -even if they do posses antiviral properties- can treat ebola than ill eat my hat and buy their oils.  i think they are outrageous and giving so many others a bad rap in the eyes of customers and distrusted opinions because of it that they needed a good stomping.   Mostly because by them doing this, they are giving more fodder for attack of themselves and then potentially and probably everyone downstream from them.


----------



## Earthen_Step (Sep 24, 2014)

I'm really tired and my brain is shutting off.  Just a couple points before I go to sleep.  I think false claims can ruin a company in time.  Especially these days with such easily found information at our fingertips.  Do a search for "doterra medical claims" and see how much trust people have in it.  This also applies to the 1800's comments and self regulation.  The horrible practices were used as a tool to drive fear into us to introduce new regulations.  If we had trusted in natural law I think we would have a much better society today.  Instead we pushed further and further into political law and into this over-regulated mess we have today. 

Of course this is all opinion and the best society to me might not be what many of you would enjoy.


----------



## bodhi (Sep 24, 2014)

Earthen_Step said:


> I'm really tired and my brain is shutting off.  Just a couple points before I go to sleep.  I think false claims can ruin a company in time.  Especially these days with such easily found information at our fingertips.  Do a search for "doterra medical claims" and see how much trust people have in it.  This also applies to the 1800's comments and self regulation.  The horrible practices were used as a tool to drive fear into us to introduce new regulations.  If we had trusted in natural law I think we would have a much better society today.  Instead we pushed further and further into political law and into this over-regulated mess we have today.
> 
> Of course this is all opinion and the best society to me might not be what many of you would enjoy.



I think that might be fact as opposed to opinion...


----------



## doriettefarm (Sep 24, 2014)

Dr Bronner's also received a similar smack-down from the FDA
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2014/ucm408739.htm


----------



## bodhi (Sep 24, 2014)

doriettefarm said:


> Dr Bronner's also received a similar smack-down from the FDA
> http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2014/ucm408739.htm



The fda needs a good smack down.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

If your product can do something then just prove it. If you can't prove that it works, there is a good reason for that! Do some blind tests with control groups and if it works, it works. 

I think that assuming people will be able to tell bogus claims and research from valid ones is a cop out and very short sighted. A case of "hey, if you can't work it out, too bad" is not helpful to those who can't work it out. 

Saying that bogus claims will be worked out of the market in time is also a terrible solution. When I and burying my children because I used Ebola curing soap instead of actual medicine I am sure that the thought that one day these companies will stop making these claims will be of great comfort to me!

You might not like the FDA or agree with regulation. But it is everywhere and it actually helps. Your children learn in schools regulated to make sure that the teaching is not a load of rubbish.you can drive a car regulated to a standard of safety unless it is a gm car. You fill it with fuel made to a standard that works well and gives you a certain level of performance. 

The people who do important work on your home should also be regulated. If I come and say I can do your electric works and your house burns down, can I just say "well you should have looked in to my claims"?


----------



## bodhi (Sep 25, 2014)

I agree with most of what youre saying to efficacious gentleman.  Unfortunately i think there is a middle ground between tried and true 'remedies' be they oils, salts, herbs, minerals, etc which have time tested effectiveness and fda regulated 'drugs' and 'diseases' and even more unfortunately i fear 'never the twain shall meet'.  Which is SO unfortunate because given a sane and rational evaluation with no biases or ulterior motives behind either, they could be beautiful and incredibly effective compliments to each other.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

Very good point - I have no idea how the FDA approves or dissaproves things.


----------



## bodhi (Sep 25, 2014)

You dont want to either.  Its ugly.


----------



## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

I managed to do a little bit of research on this last night. 

Apparently the FDA didn't get their 'info' from the main sites of do terra and yl.

The info was collated from individual reps own sites. The companies in question tell their reps NOT to make any medical claims :/ it's one of their policies apparently. 

Do terra have sent out info to reps in response to this letter and are investigating certain videos reps have put up on you tube which suggest medical use for the oils.


Iv failed so many times I'm becoming an expert


----------



## Earthen_Step (Sep 25, 2014)

I don't blame anyone for not reading this post, it's long.  I hope it's decent and drives some large picture points home.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> If your product can do something then just prove it. If you can't prove that it works, there is a good reason for that! Do some blind tests with control groups and if it works, it works.



Just a few points I'd like to bring up: 
-I don't have the time/money/resources to prove something works at the level the FDA requires.  Most small businesses do not.  
-Many things work for some people and not for others -- biology is extremely complex. 
-Even placebos work, they are sugar pills and prescribed by doctors for many ailments. See articles below on how effective placebos can be.

Wikipedia/Placebo
Wired.com
NCBI.gov



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I think that assuming people will be able to tell bogus claims and research from valid ones is a cop out and very short sighted. A case of "hey, if you can't work it out, too bad" is not helpful to those who can't work it out.



More people die from medical practices then home remedies. If more people relied on home remedies for the smaller things there would be much less death or permanent harm. Check this article out for some fun numbers on how great our certified medical structure is...

Mercola.com




The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Saying that bogus claims will be worked out of the market in time is also a terrible solution. When I and burying my children because I used Ebola curing soap instead of actual medicine I am sure that the thought that one day these companies will stop making these claims will be of great comfort to me!



The death rate is at 70% with ebola.  Honestly I'd rather die at home using my soap than in a hospital full of other dying people.  And If I could legally buy my own morphine I'd die in less pain.

A harsher point I'd like to bring up.  If people are dumb enough to use an EO to cure something that is easily fixed by modern medicine maybe their genes being buried is not worth the regulations preventing those few occurrences.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> You might not like the FDA or agree with regulation. But it is everywhere and it actually helps. Your children learn in schools regulated to make sure that the teaching is not a load of rubbish.you can drive a car regulated to a standard of safety unless it is a gm car. You fill it with fuel made to a standard that works well and gives you a certain level of performance.



I do not like the FDA or agree with it's regulation and it is everywhere.  I do not think the costs are worth its mandatory services.

The american education system is terrible and I think it is directly rooted in the federal government.  If we had each state free to do it's thing there would be a very diverse education system.  Over time the best solutions would be adapted by other states.  And I do not think there is one best way to educate, there are many methods that raise intelligence.

Increase spending in education does not = higher test scores
USA test scores stagnant: huffington post -- washington post

Consumers can decide what safety features they want without government mandating it. People like safety and fuel economy, we are not as dumb as the government pretends we are.  Companies love these mandates so they can increase costs and often it can favor a single company for some time.  Increase costs in consumer vehicles also brings in more tax dollars.  

What Might Cars Cost If We Had a Free Market?



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The people who do important work on your home should also be regulated. If I come and say I can do your electric works and your house burns down, can I just say "well you should have looked in to my claims"?



If you do a terrible job and burn my house down you could go to jail for criminal negligent homicide if people died -- and pay whatever you can for damages with or without death. Your business would not survive.  I do most of my own work around the house, plumbing, electrical, carpentry.  I should not require a certificate to do so.  When I have hired a job out, I have researched the company it's very easy these days.  Sometimes it's asking someone, who would you recommend for this?  Other times it's looking for reviews online or using the BBB (nonprofit org - not government).

There are nice apprenticeship programs for trades in the USA.  It's done by a mix of schooling and/or On-the-job training.  Federal government has little to do with it and it works well enough.  Some states adopt the national code because it's easy -- others adopt none of it.  If you care about state code and licence requirements for electrical contractors see here.  I do not see a correlation at all between deaths in home fires and low electrical certification standards.  Although I cannot find stats on those fires made only by electrical errors. You can see here, the 2 states with highest risk of death by fire are in sates with higher regulations. Kansas is a state with none and I cannot find anything showing higher electrical fires because of it.

*Grand Finale*

I don't care that your country regulates to an extreme level.  I care that the United States does.  If you disliked the level of regulation I would love for you to be able to move here freely.  That was the point of us breaking from the kings rule.

This country was based on individual freedom and limiting central government.  That has gone away and I want it back.  I would love to have one free developed nation in this world.  To me the idea of the United Sates is a great one, but it requires individual and state freedoms for this experiment to take place.  If one state regulates things I disagree with, I can move.  If the federal government mandates it, there is no where to go.  How can we test ideas with such an overpowered central government? 

Like I have said before.  If the central powers want to create certified FDA approved lists and stamps of approval they should be voluntary.  Let people buy FDA/FTC/USDA whatever, but let people chose to disregard it.  If it's a great service people will use it, they don't need to use force.


**:shock: That took a while to put together, didn't expect to write so much!**

I just saw this taco bell commercial.  An old man is talking to his grandchild in front of taco bell.  "This silver dollar has been in our family for generations. I had it with me the night I won the heart of your grandmother. Wait that was Chrissy Redford, don't tell Nana.  It even saved my life from a nail gun in the great construction riots. And now I want you to hav... Never mind".  It is a nice representation of what past generations have done to the USA. That silver dollar is worth about $20.  I need to re-install AdBlock.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzJo7QMMfTQ"]youtube commercial link[/ame]


----------



## bodhi (Sep 25, 2014)

holistic, Interesting.  I wonder if that is a 'what we put on paper and what we say are two different things type situation.  I suppose it doesnt really matter though.  It will be interesting to see what the outcome of all the reorganizing im sure they are doing now.


----------



## bodhi (Sep 25, 2014)

Earthen step, 3 small things...  i didnt watch the video, you can grow poppies, and will you marry me?  :wink:


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

Earthen_Step said:


> ...........
> -I don't have the time/money/resources to prove something works at the level the FDA requires. Most small businesses do not.
> -Many things work for some people and not for others -- biology is extremely complex.
> -Even placebos work, they are sugar pills and prescribed by doctors for many ailments. See articles below on how effective placebos can be.
> ...


 
That well may be - so can the placebo effect also be a reason why some people seem to benefit from EOs and so on..................?

Biology is complex and things won't work for all folks, but the same is true of a pill, but they still seem to pass a test on being effective.

Does it really cost that much to do a trial and submit the info to the FDA?
http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DevelopmentApprovalProcess/default.htm



Earthen_Step said:


> ...........
> More people die from medical practices then home remedies. If more people relied on home remedies for the smaller things there would be much less death or permanent harm. Check this article out for some fun numbers on how great our certified medical structure is...
> 
> Mercola.com


 I see a lot in that website about the misuse and over perscription of drugs.  To mis-quote a rap song, it tells us that drugs don't kill people, people do.

As for more people dying from medical practices then home remedies, can you please post percentages of users of each that die from what they were trying to treat?  Figures alone do not tell the whole story.  100k people from medicine and only 100 from home remedies looks compelling, unless 100billion use medicine 101 use home remedies........



Earthen_Step said:


> ...........
> The death rate is at 70% with ebola. Honestly I'd rather die at home using my soap than in a hospital full of other dying people. And If I could legally buy my own morphine I'd die in less pain.
> 
> A harsher point I'd like to bring up. If people are dumb enough to use an EO to cure something that is easily fixed by modern medicine maybe their genes being buried is not worth the regulations preventing those few occurrences.


 
Harsh indeed.  but you say modern medicine is killing more people than home remedies one minute, but say that people should use medicine and not home remedies the next.................which one is best - as you can't seem to decide.




Earthen_Step said:


> ...........
> I do not like the FDA or agree with it's regulation and it is everywhere. I do not think the costs are worth its mandatory services.


 
I think THIS is the crux of the matter.   You dislike regulation.



Earthen_Step said:


> ...........
> The american education system is terrible and I think it is directly rooted in the federal government. If we had each state free to do it's thing there would be a very diverse education system. Over time the best solutions would be adapted by other states. And I do not think there is one best way to educate, there are many methods that raise intelligence.
> 
> Increase spending in education does not = higher test scores
> USA test scores stagnant: huffington post -- washington post


Federal vs local regulation is still.............regulation!  You school system may well be terrible, but if all regulation was done away with, each state would have different standards.  While you might not think that is a bad thing, I am sure many interstate employers would be horrified at having to close whole branches because the locals all lack the skills needed as the state decided not to teach that.



Earthen_Step said:


> ...........
> Consumers can decide what safety features they want without government mandating it. People like safety and fuel economy, we are not as dumb as the government pretends we are. Companies love these mandates so they can increase costs and often it can favor a single company for some time. Increase costs in consumer vehicles also brings in more tax dollars.
> 
> What Might Cars Cost If We Had a Free Market?


 
Is there another website about the number of deaths in auto accidents if cars lacked some of these features?  No airbags or ABS - has the author ever driven a car with no ABS or traction control?  It can be fun, but you need to know what you are doing.  If I was in America and someone hit me because a company could sell an engine on wheels with nothing to control how well it was built, I would be pretty darn ticked. 



Earthen_Step said:


> ...........
> If you do a terrible job and burn my house down you could go to jail for criminal negligent homicide if people died -- and pay whatever you can for damages with or without death. Your business would not survive. I do most of my own work around the house, plumbing, electrical, carpentry. I should not require a certificate to do so. When I have hired a job out, I have researched the company it's very easy these days. Sometimes it's asking someone, who would you recommend for this? Other times it's looking for reviews online or using the BBB (nonprofit org - not government).
> 
> There are nice apprenticeship programs for trades in the USA. It's done by a mix of schooling and/or On-the-job training. Federal government has little to do with it and it works well enough. Some states adopt the national code because it's easy -- others adopt none of it. If you care about state code and licence requirements for electrical contractors see here. I do not see a correlation at all between deaths in home fires and low electrical certification standards. Although I cannot find stats on those fires made only by electrical errors. You can see here, the 2 states with highest risk of death by fire are in sates with higher regulations. Kansas is a state with none and I cannot find anything showing higher electrical fires because of it.


 
FEMA would say otherwise 
"
*Properly maintain your electrical system and components by*[FONT=Joanna MT Std,Joanna MT Std][FONT=Joanna MT Std,Joanna MT Std]:
[/FONT][/FONT]–[FONT=Joanna MT Std,Joanna MT Std][FONT=Joanna MT Std,Joanna MT Std]–Ensuring all residential work is performed by a qualified, licensed electrician and complies with codes and standards.
[/FONT][/FONT]"
taken from

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v14i13.pdf

I am very glad that when I move in to a house over here there needs to be a certificate showing that the electrics were installed by or checked by a qualified person.  I don't care if you are awesome with electics, I will not risk my families safety on the fact that someone says that they did a good job of it.



Earthen_Step said:


> ...........
> *Grand Finale*
> 
> I don't care that your country regulates to an extreme level. I care that the United States does. If you disliked the level of regulation I would love for you to be able to move here freely. That was the point of us breaking from the kings rule.
> ...


 
I get it, you love America as a republic of states but not so much central government.  Great.  'Murica!  #1.  But just because your goverment may indeed be inept and borderline corrupt does not make the notion of regulation in general a bad thing.


----------



## Susie (Sep 25, 2014)

My daddy always taught me not to discuss politics in mixed company.  It just never ends well.  And since this has wandered far from CP soap, and reached inferno status, maybe we can all move on?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

Certainly, my apologies.


----------



## Earthen_Step (Sep 25, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> That well may be - so can the placebo effect also be a reason why some people seem to benefit from EOs and so on..................?
> 
> Biology is complex and things won't work for all folks, but the same is true of a pill, but they still seem to pass a test on being effective.
> 
> ...



Yes, I think placebo has a lot to do with EO's and prescriptions. 

Good luck getting approved without a lot of money.  Research trial studies and required proof can be costly.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I see a lot in that website about the misuse and over perscription of drugs.  To mis-quote a rap song, it tells us that drugs don't kill people, people do.
> 
> As for more people dying from medical practices then home remedies, can you please post percentages of users of each that die from what they were trying to treat?  Figures alone do not tell the whole story.  100k people from medicine and only 100 from home remedies looks compelling, unless 100billion use medicine 101 use home remedies........



Bad hospital medical care contributed to deaths of 180k 2010 -- could be as many as 440k.
American medical system is the leading cause of death

"To date no significant statistics have been published by the National Poisons Unit. Surveys of worldwide literature relating to human toxicity over many years have only uncoverd a handful of deaths resulting from the INGESTION off essential oils. There are a number of cases of minor stomach upsets from exess consumption and a few cases where severe illness has resulted including liver function disorders, but in some cases where recovery has occured, liver and other organ functions have returned to normal" (Source)

It's easy to find a lot of death due to things FDA calls safe.  It's very hard to find the deaths due to current home remedy trends.




The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Harsh indeed.  but you say modern medicine is killing more people than home remedies one minute, but say that people should use medicine and not home remedies the next.................which one is best - as you can't seem to decide.




What is best is between you and what path you want to take.  Some people won't accept blood transfers because of religion and have died because of this.  That's between them and god.  Some people want to have tumors cut out to try and prevent the spread of cancer.  That is between them and their doctors/loved ones.  I don't think government is needed to tell us not to use something to treat a problem. 




The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I think THIS is the crux of the matter.   You dislike regulation.


 
It very much is my crux.  Your's is that you don't mind force used on people to follow what some organization thinks is best.  I want a free society.  I don't find it a fault in either of us, I'm sure a lot has contributed to our thought patterns.




The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Federal vs local regulation is still.............regulation!  You school system may well be terrible, but if all regulation was done away with, each state would have different standards.  While you might not think that is a bad thing, I am sure many interstate employers would be horrified at having to close whole branches because the locals all lack the skills needed as the state decided not to teach that.


 
Yes it still is regulation and I would migrate to the locality I like best.  You see many states have a completely voluntary schooling system.  You are not required to take your kids to school.  The funny thing is, home-school kids perform much better than those educated in the state run systems.  It's not very horrifying at all.

"The home-educated typically score 15 to 30 percentile points above public-school students on standardized academic achievement tests"
More info



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Is there another website about the number of deaths in auto accidents if cars lacked some of these features?  No airbags or ABS - has the author ever driven a car with no ABS or traction control?  It can be fun, but you need to know what you are doing.  If I was in America and someone hit me because a company could sell an engine on wheels with nothing to control how well it was built, I would be pretty darn ticked.


 
This is hypothetical but I think ABS would be very standard at this point with or without law.  Like I said, people like safety.   



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> FEMA would say otherwise
> "
> *Properly maintain your electrical system and components by*[FONT=Joanna MT Std,Joanna MT Std][FONT=Joanna MT Std,Joanna MT Std]:
> [/FONT][/FONT]–[FONT=Joanna MT Std,Joanna MT Std][FONT=Joanna MT Std,Joanna MT Std]–Ensuring all residential work is performed by a qualified, licensed electrician and complies with codes and standards.
> ...


 
You can always pay for a 3rd party inspection if you don't trust the word and reviews of people.  I don't see how regulation is needed.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I get it, you love America as a republic of states but not so much central government.  Great.  'Murica!  #1.  But just because your goverment may indeed be inept and borderline corrupt does not make the notion of regulation in general a bad thing.



I don't love Murica,  I love liberty.  I would move in one second if I found a great option out there that I could afford.  America is a dying dream.  I have small hopes and dreams of a better future and that's the reason I even took the time to post this.  People can change the world without violence.  

I'm glad you have taken the time to respond.  It's great to have a healthy debate on such involved subjects.  I'm going to bow out though, I have things to do.  If you respond I may again later on but not for a couple days.  Thanks for the fun debate Efficacious Gentleman, have a wonderful weekend.


----------



## Earthen_Step (Sep 25, 2014)

bodhi said:


> Earthen step, 3 small things...  i didnt watch the video, you can grow poppies, and will you marry me?  :wink:



I don't blame you for not watching the video.  If I am caught growing poppies can't I end up in prison?  I am already happily married.



Susie said:


> My daddy always taught me not to discuss politics in mixed company.  It just never ends well.  And since this has wandered far from CP soap, and reached inferno status, maybe we can all move on?



I did not see your post till now, I was working on the response.  I am moved on, sorry if this has offended people.


----------



## sassanellat (Sep 25, 2014)

Most headaches aren't due to dehydration, or have anything that is remediated by a glass of water.  A large majority of 'aromatherapy' does nothing at all. And herbalism? I'll leave it at the folllowing" I know at least a dozen herbalists, met randomly, across several states. All but one has developed severe gastrointestional or urinary tract issues, and all but one have fibromyalga. All those extra, unnecessary, toxic chemicals in the plants are not wise. That said, I'm glad the FDA is stepping in on these wild medical claims. It's always good when we find out that a folk remedy has actual efficacy and why, but many are simply folklore.


----------



## TVivian (Sep 25, 2014)

I have to chime in since I attended a Do Terra party just last month! The party hostess began the party by telling us how she makes over 6 figures and now makes more money than her husband.  When I saw the price list for the oils I understood why she was making 6 figures. 

When she asked us to throw out some ailments we've been feeling, one new mom wanted to know what she could do for a teething baby. The rep told her to rub CLOVE OIL onto the baby's gums!!!! Can you imagine? I couldn't keep my mouth shut on that one and had to tell her that she should never put clove oil near a baby! Someone needs to put a stop to them giving out information that could really hurt someone! I'm still appalled.


----------



## hmlove1218 (Sep 25, 2014)

TVivian said:


> I have to chime in since I attended a Do Terra party just last month! The party hostess began the party by telling us how she makes over 6 figures and now makes more money than her husband.  When I saw the price list for the oils I understood why she was making 6 figures.
> 
> When she asked us to throw out some ailments we've been feeling, one new mom wanted to know what she could do for a teething baby. The rep told her to rub CLOVE OIL onto the baby's gums!!!! Can you imagine? I couldn't keep my mouth shut on that one and had to tell her that she should never put clove oil near a baby! Someone needs to put a stop to them giving out information that could really hurt someone! I'm still appalled.



If I could like that 1000 times, I would.  The girl who's house I went to told me that she has started rubbing the Thieves blend on the bottom of her 3 year old's feet to keep her from getting sick..  First two ingredients?  Cinnamon and clove...


----------



## marilynmac (Sep 25, 2014)

The FDA regulates everyone making medical claims.  Suppose they let an individual make claims based on anecdotal evidence, or even their own personal evidence, because what the heck the public can test it for themselves.  That would leave P&G (for example) free to market ebola-eliminating dish soap and cancer-curing shampoo.


----------



## sassanellat (Sep 25, 2014)

I've personally seen some of these quotes on the doTerra sites or on the resellers sites for their products, so it's good they they were pulled. If there is actual scientific proof of the claims, then they can make them. If not, you simply cannot shill snake oil (at least concerning medical claims) in this day and age.


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 25, 2014)

TVivian said:


> I have to chime in since I attended a Do Terra party just last month! The party hostess began the party by telling us how she makes over 6 figures and now makes more money than her husband.  When I saw the price list for the oils I understood why she was making 6 figures.
> 
> When she asked us to throw out some ailments we've been feeling, one new mom wanted to know what she could do for a teething baby. The rep told her to rub CLOVE OIL onto the baby's gums!!!! Can you imagine? I couldn't keep my mouth shut on that one and had to tell her that she should never put clove oil near a baby! Someone needs to put a stop to them giving out information that could really hurt someone! I'm still appalled.



I still think the gasoline & snake milk teething blend is better. Just an opinion. :shh:


----------



## Cindy2428 (Sep 25, 2014)

I think it all comes down to the human condition. In general we are a lazy species. We have a tendency to look for the quickest, easiest way for everything, i.e., tv remote control. (Sorry I'm of the age where I was the remote control growing up   )Many go to the Dr. and if they don't get a prescription, they feel cheated. Companies like doTerra feed upon those feelings all the way to the bank.  They spend lots of money with a snake oil marketing strategy which obviously their distributors buy hook, line and sinker. Politics aside, and I have ALOT of opinions on those..... ultimately we each have an individual choice and responsibility to educate ourselves. That's why we are here on the forum. The only thing that surprises me is that I haven't seen a law firm looking for patients for a class action against doTerra - Maybe all the lawyers work for them?!


----------



## shunt2011 (Sep 25, 2014)

doTerra and Young Living have responded to the FDA warning. However, the companies are placing the false statements on the folks selling the product and not accepting the responsibility for being the ones who had to give them the information in the first place. I find it hard to believe they were all spouting the same claims on their own.  They are throwing the consultants under the bus.  

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=31702513&pid=1


----------



## bodhi (Sep 25, 2014)

Earthen_Step said:


> If I am caught growing poppies can't I end up in prison?


  I wouldnt advertise it but ive known people who have been growing poppies for decades and no one has paid it any notice.


----------



## pamielynn (Sep 26, 2014)

For pete's sake. They contacted the distributors mentioned in the letter? Big deal. They need to clamp down on ALL their distributors; I'm going with most of them don't even know this happened. And who cares if 18,000 people attended their conference? There's 18,000 people who need to change their marketing techniques - it is no way "just a select few" who are marketing essential oils as medicine.

And the websites the FDA posted are all doterra.com/somethingsomething. Not personal sites. This needs to be all over the corporate doterra sites.

And here's the saving grace for all the reps out there:

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/fda-targets-essentials-oils-see-eos-as-threat-to-new-ebola-drugs/

I'd like to meet the DT/YL sales person who is honestly and truly willing to dab some oregano oil on themselves and head into West Africa without a suit.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 26, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> ..................I'd like to meet the DT/YL sales person who is honestly and truly willing to dab some oregano oil on themselves and head into West Africa without a suit.



I'd only like to meet them _before_ they go


----------



## pamielynn (Sep 26, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'd only like to meet them _before_ they go



Good point


----------



## goji_fries (Sep 26, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> And here's the saving grace for all the reps out there:
> 
> http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/fda-targets-essentials-oils-see-eos-as-threat-to-new-ebola-drugs/
> 
> I'd like to meet the DT/YL sales person who is honestly and truly willing to dab some oregano oil on themselves and head into West Africa without a suit.



At $44/15ml(1/2oz) for patchouli, it's problee cheaper to go with  pharmaceuticals.


----------



## Dahila (Sep 26, 2014)

I have to admit that I enjoyed that conversation so much  It is good we can have it here on this forum.  This is probably why people never leave this place.  Good thing


----------



## marilynmac (Sep 26, 2014)

That link ( ealthimpactnews.com /2014/fda-targets-essentials-oils-see-eos-as-threat-to-new-ebola-drugs/ )  seems to be some sort of rationalization for those companys to be exempt from FDA rules.  

The stat they are missing is: How many deaths due to misinformation about EOs. 

Also, what's wrong with getting the stuff approved by the FDA?  It's expensive, but these companies are huge and have plenty of bucks.


----------



## pamielynn (Sep 26, 2014)

marilynmac said:


> That link ( ealthimpactnews.com /2014/fda-targets-essentials-oils-see-eos-as-threat-to-new-ebola-drugs/ )  seems to be some sort of rationalization for those companys to be exempt from FDA rules.
> 
> The stat they are missing is: How many deaths due to misinformation about EOs.



That's what my DH said, too. "How many have died from putting off treatment". And I'm not against EOs. I use them every day. I soap with them because I feel they are "cleaner" than FOs (I do use a ton of FO, though, for my customers). I sell my EOs. Not a huge fan of the FDA, either. And I've got some copy that's probably REALLY close to the line in terms of labeling.

I am, however, against anyone diagnosing or practicing medicine without a license. And to me, that's the whole point here.

One simple example is Keratosis Pilaris. My husband has it, my friends have it, I sort of know what it looks like. BUT I am not a diagnostician. When customers ask me if my soap will cure that, I say no - and I can't tell you if that's what you really have. It could be necrotizing fasciitis for all I know -so I'm not selling you anything with the promise that it will go away. So, I just wish these EO fanatics would have the same respect for other people. Phew...

****END OF RANT*****


----------



## pecorasfigs (Sep 26, 2014)

They also got Dr. Bonner


----------



## TeresaT (May 27, 2015)

goji_fries said:


> The ebola claim was crazy.... Ebola cannot live in cinnamon and oregano oil. <paraphrase>


But it thrives everywhere else!



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> you can drive a car regulated to a standard of safety unless it is a gm car.


 
Hilarious. Unfortunately, also true.


----------



## CookbookChef (Jun 20, 2015)

I have to say I sometimes find it insulting the way doTerra sellers have made me feel over the last year. I have been approached by 4 different sellers of doTerra because I make soap. When I tell them in a polite manner that I buy from a trusted source, one that I have researched and have personal experience with, and right away, like the person is programmed, they tell me that in no way can I trust where I buy my essential oils. That its a "fact" that the oil I buy elsewhere is tainted and watered down. That if I buy from doTerra its always going to be the best I can get hands down.

How insulting!!! Sorry, but all of the doTerra sellers in my area have said the same thing in the SAME Forceful and demeaning manner. Its like what, I do not have a brain in my head and I can not possibly do the right homework and can not possibly be able to choose all on my own and if I do not buy from That seller, then something is just wrong with me. That I care more about money then I do Perfect Health!!! 
Boy oh boy do I get tired of doTerra sellers. They are programmed to make me feel down right horrible for making a choice that is any other than what they are selling. If you dont choose doTerra then you have just chosen to hurt your clients and your family by the essential oils that I buy from filthy 3rd world places. Thats about how they make me feel. That my choice is the wrong choice if I buy elsewhere. So ya, I am not happy they got into trouble, but I have to say that it gives me something else now to talk about when I get brow beaten by a doTerra seller for not buying from them. no,not happy for anybody that gets into trouble. I just want to be able to make my own mind up, like the Adult that I am. I choose to buy who I buy from ...why? because I choose it. Plain and simple. I get tired of having to explain WHY I did not choose doTerra and why I choose another company. ITS MY RIGHT...SIMPLE


----------



## kdaniels8811 (Jun 21, 2015)

I told the multiple DoTerra and YL reps that if I used thier oils, I would have to charge $25 per bar of soap and I would be happy to make them some soaps  if they supplied me with the EO!  Once they found out how much it took for a loaf, they changed their mind about wanting some.  One way to shut them up...


----------



## Spice (Jun 21, 2015)

holistichonnies said:


> Personally I think this is typical FDA stupid behavior. Its quite simple that they dont want ppl to use EO's for medical purposes as it takes away money from the big pharmaceutical companies. They dont want ppl to be healthy, sick ppl make them more money.
> 
> And where you are right that there are no 'grades' in eo's, most companies do not sell pure eo's. most are diluted or even just a mixture of chemicals to make them smell like eo's. Iv spent a very long time and lots of money trying to find genuine eo's. In the UK I'v only found 4 sellers, and 2 of them are do terra and forever living. (no im not a rep lol)


Its not stupid behavior, its very smart. Keep people in a panic mode and they make trillions per day. There is no bank in the USA big enough to hold the RX's money, so they use banks all over the world. I use peppermint when my muscles hurt...and it works. I use Lavender at night for a better sleep....and that works too. So either we as soapers are lying to our customers about a healthy bar of soap, or we arent making a healthy bar of soap, just sent our customers to Wal-Mart. FDA/RX stands to make tons of money from vitamin C if it goes into research on claims that it helps allergies, an anti-histamine. People are living longer not because of the junk of side affects we take because we are taking better care of ourselves. Back 200 years people didnt die of cancer, it was due to some farm accidents, being mauled by wild animals, injuries that never healed properly, snake bites or just over worked. Today its a job just getting off the couch. Just saying.


----------



## Susie (Jun 21, 2015)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidjstokes/1800.htm

Life expectancy in the early 1800's was 40 years.  This was pre-FDA, pre-real medicine, pre-all of the things you are complaining about.  It was NOT pre-essential oils.  Just saying.

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...health_and_medical_advances_that_lead_to.html

http://mappinghistory.uoregon.edu/english/US/US39-01.html


----------



## kumudini (Jun 21, 2015)

Spice said:


> Its not stupid behavior, its very smart. Keep people in a panic mode and they make trillions per day. There is no bank in the USA big enough to hold the RX's money, so they use banks all over the world. I use peppermint when my muscles hurt...and it works. I use Lavender at night for a better sleep....and that works too. So either we as soapers are lying to our customers about a healthy bar of soap, or we arent making a healthy bar of soap, just sent our customers to Wal-Mart.


I didn't know if you were saying that soaps with those EOs will be just as effective as the EOs themselves. I use those two oils for similar issues and they work very well for me as well. I would be cautious in claiming the same thing about the soaps though, as I couldn't possibly know how much of the beneficial effects actually survived the lye and soap is a wash off product.

Btw, I thought of using them because of the anecdotal references I read, not because I researched for and assured by any medical evidence, I also use turmeric in steam therapy when I have a cold coming, it stops them in their tracks 9 times out of 10, so I beleive that information even if it is only anecdotal, needs to be available and not stomped out. Why because, when used properly it will keep you from dousing on OTC meds with their possible side effects which are several.
Also, I keep seeing this advice, not to make claims, it makes you essentially a liar kind of thing, but I wonder how many would actually take up soaping if nobody ever said anything about handmade soaps except that it cleans and how many would have missed out on this beautiful, sometimes life changing experience. So yeah, if something works one shouldn't be afraid to say so, not everything needs to be proved scientifically through a huge double blind randomized clinical trial. They didn't exist a century ago but the field of medicine has been evolving for millennia. Beleive it or not doctors existed for just as long and they cured many ailments. And beleive me when I say Ayurveda is not a sham. 
I guess the essence of my post here is that not everything needs to be so strictly regulated that the valuable information gathered over thousands of years of human existence is lost behind EBM ( evidence based medicine) and that us home crafters are afraid to say our wonderful soaps moisturize or to use our 20% zinc oxide creams as sunscreens.


----------



## MorpheusPA (Jun 21, 2015)

It's mostly that, once proved by double-blind testing, it becomes evidence-based medicine.  Which is covered by the FDA, as are unsubstantiated claims.

The FDA is not happy in the slightest when somebody makes a medical claim (founded or unfounded) in a product NOT labeled as a medication.  Nor if somebody makes an unfounded claim with a medication. You can sort of see why if you look up 19th century medicine shows and snake oil salesmen.  Some regulation was clearly required, and very clearly still is.  For obvious reasons.


----------



## MorpheusPA (Jun 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidjstokes/1800.htm
> 
> Life expectancy in the early 1800's was 40 years.  This was pre-FDA, pre-real medicine, pre-all of the things you are complaining about.  It was NOT pre-essential oils.  Just saying.
> 
> ...



True, but devil's advocate here.  A lot of that was absolutely abysmal infant mortality rates.  If you made it to age 21, you had an excellent chance of living a pretty long life.  Sidenote:  The USA still has abysmal infant mortality rates compared to the first or second world, so our life expectancy is still rather depressed.

Mostly, vaccination (and the resulting herd immunity) helped protect infants.  Simple disinfection helped save a lot of lives and similarly reduced infant (and mother!) mortality.

Dying at age 0.05 throws the average down more than somebody who manages to live to 80 lifts it.

Un-devil's advocating, essential oils certainly existed.  They didn't help.  What did help was the wide synthesis of carbolic acid (for disinfection) and the discovery that people who got cowpox didn't get the Great Pox.


----------



## Spice (Jun 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidjstokes/1800.htm
> 
> Life expectancy in the early 1800's was 40 years.  This was pre-FDA, pre-real medicine, pre-all of the things you are complaining about.  It was NOT pre-essential oils.  Just saying.
> 
> ...


Peppermint eo has been around for like 5000 years.


----------



## Spice (Jun 21, 2015)

Vkumudini said:


> I didn't know if you were saying that soaps with those EOs will be just as effective as the EOs themselves. I use those two oils for similar issues and they work very well for me as well. I would be cautious in claiming the same thing about the soaps though, as I couldn't possibly know how much of the beneficial effects actually survived the lye and soap is a wash off product.
> 
> Btw, I thought of using them because of the anecdotal references I read, not because I researched for and assured by any medical evidence, I also use turmeric in steam therapy when I have a cold coming, it stops them in their tracks 9 times out of 10, so I beleive that information even if it is only anecdotal, needs to be available and not stomped out. Why because, when used properly it will keep you from dousing on OTC meds with their possible side effects which are several.
> Also, I keep seeing this advice, not to make claims, it makes you essentially a liar kind of thing, but I wonder how many would actually take up soaping if nobody ever said anything about handmade soaps except that it cleans and how many would have missed out on this beautiful, sometimes life changing experience. So yeah, if something works one shouldn't be afraid to say so, not everything needs to be proved scientifically through a huge double blind randomized clinical trial. They didn't exist a century ago but the field of medicine has been evolving for millennia. Beleive it or not doctors existed for just as long and they cured many ailments. And beleive me when I say Ayurveda is not a sham.
> I guess the essence of my post here is that not everything needs to be so strictly regulated that the valuable information gathered over thousands of years of human existence is lost behind EBM ( evidence based medicine) and that us home crafters are afraid to say our wonderful soaps moisturize or to use our 20% zinc oxide creams as sunscreens.


Yes EO's are just as effective.


----------



## em79 (Jun 21, 2015)

kdaniels8811 said:


> I told the multiple DoTerra and YL reps that if I used thier oils, I would have to charge $25 per bar of soap and I would be happy to make them some soaps  if they supplied me with the EO!  Once they found out how much it took for a loaf, they changed their mind about wanting some.  One way to shut them up...



Brilliant answer !!!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 22, 2015)

Spice said:


> Yes EO's are just as effective.




Can you let me know where the studies are on this? Is that hp or cp? Would be interesting to check out


----------



## Susie (Jun 22, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> True, but devil's advocate here.  A lot of that was absolutely abysmal infant mortality rates.  If you made it to age 21, you had an excellent chance of living a pretty long life.
> 
> Mostly, vaccination (and the resulting herd immunity) helped protect infants.  Simple disinfection helped save a lot of lives and similarly reduced infant (and mother!) mortality.
> 
> ...



*Yes, but, saying things like this is patently untrue...*



Spice said:


> Back 200 years people didnt die of cancer, it was due to some farm accidents, being mauled by wild animals, injuries that never healed properly, snake bites or just over worked. Today its a job just getting off the couch. Just saying.



Women also died in childbirth at an astounding rate.  Yes, the carbolic acid was a great lifesaver, I know.  But you have to admit that the invention of modern antibiotics had a thing or two to do with it.   People did indeed die of cancer 200 years ago.  Also heart attacks, strokes, diabetes, kidney failure due to many different causes, high blood pressure, tuberculosis, and any number of other "treatable" diseases we face today.  

My bottom line is this:  if you want to treat your illnesses with essential oils and other "natural, holistic, or other non-western medicine" methods, go right ahead.  Only move out to a deserted place first, we don't need you landing in a modern hospital where they are going to give in to your demands and take up valuable space and resources that other people desperately need.


----------



## MorpheusPA (Jun 22, 2015)

Susie said:


> *Yes, but, saying things like this is patently untrue...*



Completely agreed!



> Women also died in childbirth at an astounding rate.  Yes, the carbolic acid was a great lifesaver, I know.  But you have to admit that the invention of modern antibiotics had a thing or two to do with it.   People did indeed die of cancer 200 years ago.  Also heart attacks, strokes, diabetes, kidney failure due to many different causes, high blood pressure, tuberculosis, and any number of other "treatable" diseases we face today.



Lousy medical technology and poor post-death diagnosis pretty much resulted in most death certificates (if one was even issued in most places) reading "He done up and died."

So yep, people died of stuff that's either curable or treatable today.  They just usually didn't diagnose it.

It's interesting to note that we've discovered dinosaur fossils with cancer, and the modern claim that sharks don't get cancer is completely incorrect.  They do.

Off the cuff, I'd be hard-pressed to pick just one innovation that's been the most definitive in saving lives, as they were all such an improvement over what went before that the change is incomparable.  But your statement that antibiotics were impressive is without doubt.  They sure kicked the butt of the earlier sulfa drugs!



> My bottom line is this:  if you want to treat your illnesses with essential oils and other "natural, holistic, or other non-western medicine" methods, go right ahead.  Only move out to a deserted place first, we don't need you landing in a modern hospital where they are going to give in to your demands and take up valuable space and resources that other people desperately need.



Eh, I suppose it depends.  For colds, I tend to evaporate a bit of eucalyptus oil into the air.  Since you can only treat the symptoms (and colds aren't generally life-threatening), and since eucalyptus opens my sinuses a little bit for a while, I'll take it.  I still take Ibuprofin to combat the aches and fever, of course, but willow bark tea would probably do tolerably well.

For more serious or chronic conditions that cause damage, it's western medicine all the way.


----------



## kumudini (Jun 22, 2015)

The art and science of healing has been around for ages. Well meaning people have tried to decrease human suffering, otherwise the western world wouldn't have known Hippocrates or us Indians about Charaka and Sushrutha and many such great figures around the world in all cultures.
Their instruments were mostly their well respected teachers and their own inquisitive minds and keen observation. They didn't have hundreds of universities with thousands of medical and paramedical students, they didn't have computers and Internet. The knowledge couldn't be easily disseminated. But they in their earnest tried their best to heal and in that process passed on their wisdom to future generations.  The modern medicine and big pharmacies haven't just popped up on the surface of earth one day and said we are going to take over health care for all the people. The beginning was indeed those well meaning doctors and their discoveries. Initially the meds were also plant derived. Progresses elsewhere, in the field of physics and chemistry and many other scientifical fields made it possible for the medical field to evolve at an unprecedented pace. It is still a work in progress. We are never done learning new things.
What is interesting though is how the modern medicine has alienated all its predecessors. I wonder if it is not partially driven by greed at some level. Whether it is or not, I feel that healing should be about doing most good while causing the least harm. If one wants to treat a patient as a whole being, relying solely on man made chemicals comes short. There are so many wonderful forms of healing, and the best doctor integrates all those things for the best possible outcome for their patients. It should never be modern medicine against all others and unfortunately it is. 
I shouldn't have to choose my left eye or the right.
I know, most of you will say prove something and you can sell it. Unfortunately it means that prove your eucalyptus oil is effective by doing some expensive studies and you get to patent it, bottle and label it and charge an arm and leg for it. MorpheusPA wouldn't be able to buy those few drops without going to a doctor, cough up the copay, get a script and shell out money for the tiny bottle. And may be he will reach for that NyQuil cold instead, what a win win! 
Iam not supporting any EO company that is making those crazy claims. I'm all about keeping an open mind and educating one self and not following anything blindly. I realize this is not a topic for this forum. We are mostly soapers who want to use these wonderful chemicals called essential oils in soaps by the pound. I hope these will continue to be available for those purposes.
And Susie, it would help to think that may be those who are trying to put good things in and on their bodies actually pay big money for health insurance and they have every right to go into hospitals as much as those who do a bunch of harm to themselves by making all kinds of uneducated choices in health, food and lifestyle.


----------



## Susie (Jun 22, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> Eh, I suppose it depends.  For colds, I tend to evaporate a bit of eucalyptus oil into the air.  Since you can only treat the symptoms (and colds aren't generally life-threatening), and since eucalyptus opens my sinuses a little bit for a while, I'll take it.  I still take Ibuprofin to combat the aches and fever, of course, but willow bark tea would probably do tolerably well.
> 
> For more serious or chronic conditions that cause damage, it's western medicine all the way.



I don't even treat colds unless I think I am about to get a sinus infection.  Just give it saline nose spray and time.  As my dad used to say, "You treat a cold, and it lasts 7-10 days.  You don't treat a cold and it lasts a week to a week and a half."



Vkumudini said:


> And Susie, it would help to think that may be those who are trying to put good things in and on their bodies actually pay big money for health insurance and they have every right to go into hospitals as much as those who do a bunch of harm to themselves by making all kinds of uneducated choices in health, food and lifestyle.



I am not arguing a bit with anything you had to say.  Yes, there are people who choose to use all forms of medicine, often with good results.  I am not judging anyone based on whether they have insurance or not.  I am only disagreeing with the folks who act like all health ills occurred after the advent of modern medicine, and mostly because of what the FDA has or has not done.

It is frustrating, however, to be the nurse(or doctor, but I am a nurse, so I am speaking only from personal experience here), and a patient comes into the hospital who *only* wants "traditional, natural, holistic treatment".  They refuse simple lab tests, x-rays, and modern medications of all sorts.  You have no idea how frustrating that can be.


----------



## kumudini (Jun 22, 2015)

Susie said:


> It is frustrating, however, to be the nurse(or doctor, but I am a nurse, so I am speaking only from personal experience here), and a patient comes into the hospital who *only* wants "traditional, natural, holistic treatment".  They refuse simple lab tests, x-rays, and modern medications of all sorts.  You have no idea how frustrating that can be.



That would frustrate me to no end Susie, I agree. you or any other medical provider shouldn't have to put up with that. It's as simple as ' if you don't want the services we provide, go look for one who provides services you prefer'. But I guess you really can't say that in an emergency setting.


----------



## MorpheusPA (Jun 22, 2015)

Susie said:


> I don't even treat colds unless I think I am about to get a sinus infection.  Just give it saline nose spray and time.  As my dad used to say, "You treat a cold, and it lasts 7-10 days.  You don't treat a cold and it lasts a week to a week and a half."



Very true. I have a suspicion that the eucalyptus doesn't do jack except make me feel proactive.

During most colds, I'll take it.  Just keeping the oil in the vaporizer distributor kills a minute or two every couple hours, which is totally worth it when I have a cold!


----------



## not_ally (Jun 22, 2015)

I agree with what many/most seem to be saying, which is that you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water either way.  Like V, I am Indian, and am very appreciative of the 1000's of years of ayurvedic learning/expertise that the best practitioners draw upon there.  My dad is a big ayurveda fan, as well as having a PhD in molecular biology and having spent his life working doing medical research for BigCo pharma.  

But I am also super glad to have good health insurance and the availability of "modern" medicine/techniques, and carefully regulated/tested drugs.  I think making it a binary choice is unnecessary and polarizing.


----------



## Aline (Jun 22, 2015)

Susie said:


> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/davidjstokes/1800.htm
> 
> Life expectancy in the early 1800's was 40 years.  This was pre-FDA, pre-real medicine, pre-all of the things you are complaining about.  It was NOT pre-essential oils.  Just saying.
> 
> ...



From my understanding the increase in life-expectancy is more to do with sanitation, cleaner drinking water and understanding of how disease spreads than the use of drugs. Also, those numbers in the 1800's being so low are partly due to the infant mortality rate which was very high due to squalid living conditions and unheated houses.  I'm not dismissing the incredible advances in surgery and life-saving drugs but many other conditions can be treated by natural remedies, without the harmful side-effects.

Edit: just read page 9 and realize I am pretty much repeating....


----------



## MorpheusPA (Jun 22, 2015)

Vkumudini said:


> I know, most of you will say prove something and you can sell it. Unfortunately it means that prove your eucalyptus oil is effective by doing some expensive studies and you get to patent it, bottle and label it and charge an arm and leg for it. MorpheusPA wouldn't be able to buy those few drops without going to a doctor, cough up the copay, get a script and shell out money for the tiny bottle. And may be he will reach for that NyQuil cold instead, what a win win!



Actually, common stuff that's unmodified can't be patented.  A company could patent a special process whereby the eucalyptus leaf is treated in a special way to preferentially release whatever clears the sinuses, but couldn't patent cold, hot, or hexane-extracted eucalyptus oil.  Such things already exist.

To some extent, this is the reason that many things like this wouldn't be tested.  Testing's expensive and the return, in this case, is very small.  That's why we have government-funded agencies and grants for things.



> Iam not supporting any EO company that is making those crazy claims. I'm all about keeping an open mind and educating one self and not following anything blindly.



Save that any claim not substantiated by double-blind experiment is, by definition, unfounded.  So I could (and do) make eucalyptus soap.  But I couldn't sell it with the claim that it'll clear your sinuses.

Probably, anyway, there may actually be studies on that.  But it would then class as a medication at worst or a cosmetic at best instead of simple soap.


----------

