# New soaper and some ?'s



## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

HI All,

I am new here and just made my first CP soap 2 weeks ago. I got impatient and am using it already but I did pH test strip it and it is testing at about 8 after 1 week cure time. So I went for it. It is softer then if I waited but I love it. I am experimenting with it on my face and am not sure...I am not breaking out yet but my roommate did and it does leave my face feeling a bit too "oily" from what I am used to. So I want to try to make a face soap with oils that are non-comedogenic. So the oils I am looking at using are Argan, Safflower (high linoleic), castor, Shea butter and Kokum butter and Meadowfoam seed oil (all are said to be non or low comedogenic). I am not sure what amounts thought I should try. It does not need to be a super hard bar but with all the liquid oils will it be too mushy or should I just up the hard butter amounts? And so then the other question I have is the superfat level....should I leave it at 0% to avoid that oil residue feel that I do not like or will the soap be too drying? Would love any input. Happy to be here and LOVED making my first batch of soap. Now I have to refrain from just making a ton of soap that I just have to give away to coworkers!

This is what I came up with as a start...and plan to use Litsea, Pettigrain and maybe Lemongrass EO

OILS & FATS AMOUNT % Argan Oil 6.60 oz 20.0 % Castor Oil 3.30 oz 10.0 % Kokum Butter 3.30 oz 10.0 % Mango Butter 3.30 oz 10.0 % Meadowfoam Oil 6.60 oz 20.0 % Safflower Oil 4.95 oz 15.0 % Shea Butter (Refined) 4.95 oz 15.0 % Total 33.00 oz 100 %

_Thanks for any thoughts!_


Oh, and I also have some Zeolite clay I was thinking of adding as well to give me a dryer feel after washing my face....good idea or no??

And to replace water with aloe liquid....sorry, I keep forgetting everything I want to do with this soap to make it good for my oily acne prone face!

OMG, and I forgot to ask....will this mix of oils have any bubbles? I do like a bubbly bar but fear this one will have none and should I use an additive to give me some bubbles?


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## dixiedragon (Jun 16, 2016)

Welcome to soap making! IMO, those oils - argan, kokum, meadowfoam, etc - are far FAR too expensive to use in soap making! We have a saying here "the lye takes what it wants". You may want to consider making a lotion. You recipe will make a very expensive bar of soap that will be mushy and have no bubbles. 

Looking at your oils, I assume you want to make an all-veg bar?

The properties that an oil will lend to soap are, IMO, totally different than the properties the oils have on their own. For example, coconut oil by itself is a very nice moisturizing oil. But when you soap it - it makes a hard, very cleansing soap. Most of us use coconut oil at 20% or less in soap, b/c it can be very harsh and drying. 

Also, I would really REALLY not recommend washing your face or anything but your hands with 2-week-old soap. It is probably irritating your roommate's skin, which is causing her skin to produce more oil, which is causing the acne. Put it away for AT LEAST 4 more weeks! Or limit it to hands only.

As my sig says, I am a lardinator. Is lard out for you? How about palm?


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

Thanks for the reply. Yep, no animal products and no palm oil....I am not even sure I trust when RSPO is on palm products yet. I work for a Zoo so have issues with palm products....although I know some other oils are also problematic with harvesting. But lets keep this to soap. I hear ya on the expensive oil issue but I guess my question is how to get a bar of soap that is not going to clog my pores and coconut is high on that list (as are alot of the other oils I picked out for my first batch. The first batch I made is listed. I created this recipe myself and really like it just not for my face. So even if the soap tests 8 on ph, I shouldn't be using it? I thought that was THE test for usability not taking into account other qualities as reasons for waiting 6-8 weeks?? So when the saponification takes over, does it render the qualities of the oils on their own no longer valid....ie. pore blocking? I plan to make a 100% coconut soap (15% superfat) for my friends son who is a mechanic. But the face soap thing has me "not getting" it yet.

Thanks


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## DeeAnna (Jun 16, 2016)

You are confusing the qualities of the OIL with the qualities of the SOAP made from that oil. Comedogenic ratings for oils don't apply to soap for example. 

I agree with Dixie that argan and other expensive oils are better used in lotions and other leave-on products to get the most good out of these ingredients. Castor over about 5% in soap can (doesn't always, but can) make the skin feel sticky. 

You're a beginning soap maker. Why not focus on making a basic, well-made bath soap using classic ingredients and see how that works on your face first? And then you can add special ingredients to see how they work (or don't). When you add unusual oils and other ingredients right off the bat without really knowing what good soap really is all about, you are setting yourself up to be confused and disappointed.


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## kchaystack (Jun 16, 2016)

For the most part, yes.  You are creating a completely new substance, that has properties all its own.

If you are not going to use lard or tallow or palm, you are going to have to accept the limitations that puts on you - mainly you will need much longer curing times before your soap is ready.  I would suggest you stick with an olive, coconut, castor and use cocoa or shea butter.  Maybe once you have gotten the hang of it add in some (3 -5 % max) beeswax to help hardness.  Remember the higher your % of butter the more it will impact your lather (at least as a general rule) 

Our on lovely Saponista shared this blog link on her FB feed today.  It has some good objective info on the palm debate.  I am not trying it sway you one way or another, just providing info.

http://www.lisaliseblog.com/2013/09/palm-oil-and-politics.html


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

Lol, because I am a fanatic about researching stuff and coming up with my own ideas and because soap has a shelf life. I don't want to make so much soap and spend all the money just to give it away. So to make and make and make so I can test and test seems like alot of money. So I have been researching qualities of oils, fatty acid profiles etc to find oils that should be face friendly but it seems that those qualities don't matter much in SOAP (so I will hold off on the oils that would do better in a leave on product)....as far as knowing soap....I am 50 years old, oily acne skin...I have been testing soap for 40 years and am just so happy I can ditch all those chemical laden products and make my own now. Just can not believe I waited so long to start this. So while I am absolutely a beginning soaper for sure, I am an avid soap user and know what qualities I would like in my soap....I hope I am not sounding rude, I don't mean to at all. I am just super excited about this and am a perfectionist, with a science background....if I wanted a generic soap I would just keep buying the handmade soap from a local place I had been getting it (but when I found out she used palm oil, I vowed to make my own). I want something more special than a generic classic soap I guess.


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## Steve85569 (Jun 16, 2016)

^^^ What DeeAnna said.

How about a Bastille type soap? Lots of olive oil  (70% +/-) with some coconut for hardness  (15% +/- )and lather with 3-5% castor  filling in the rest with one of the exotics (expensive oils) and a lye discount ( SF ) of 3 to 7%.
Just a thought from this hillbilly.

Welcome to the forum.
If you had no problem with lard I would have suggested a totally different starting recipe.


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## Susie (Jun 16, 2016)

Hey and welcome!

Throw the pH strips away.  They are a complete waste.  Soap is an alkaline product.  Period.  And pH is no indication of cure.  Soap needs 4-6 weeks MINIMUM to cure.  There is no rushing it.

I am going to second the "start with a good basic bath bar" sentiment.  Once you get that accomplished, you can then branch into facial soaps.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

Hmmm, ok, no pH strips....but then why can it not be used if the saponification, from what I have read is mostly done pretty quickly (other reasons?). I thought olive oil itself creates a super hard bar?? So my first batch of soap is not worthy of a good bar badge? lol....it turned out beautifully, lathers decently, feels silky smooth, smells awesome (I know, wait longer) but I felt so proud of myself and I feel ya all are knocking me down because I used some less common ingredients 
:cry: super sad face tears dropping....just kidding. I guess I don't feel the need to be generic and basic just because I am new to soaping....I am meticulous about how I do most things, and this is no different....I got the googles, the gloves, the stainless steel mixing containers, the digital temp gun, the digital scale, the stick blender, the silicone molds, the freezer paper, all the oils and EO..... I am not a normal person when it comes to this kind of thing....as I said, science background.


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## shunt2011 (Jun 16, 2016)

Unfortunately, everyone's skin reacts differently to  recipes.  And it takes a lot of testing.  I too started making soap because of skin issues for both my husband and myself.  It took me about a year to create recipes that worked for us the best.  Fancy oils are not the way to go.  What works best for my husband is lard/co/AO/Shea & Castor.   What works for me is Salt Bars alternating with another bar that's mostly soft oils for my face.  My standard bar works great for my body.   So you will find a lot of different opinions for individual uses and issues.   

That's why starting with basic is the best.  If you want to make your own you have to be prepared to invest the time (research & Creating recipes) and money.  Though the best bars for us were able to be made from the grocery store.


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## Susie (Jun 16, 2016)

Pure Olive Oil soap (AKA Castile) takes 6-12 months to cure.  Months.  After that, it is a hard bar that does not melt away into a slimy bunch of ick in the shower in 3 uses.  I said nothing about your ingredients, as I do not use those, nor do I have skin issues that you seem to have.  

I did, however, suggest you try making a basic bath bar as the ingredients are cheaper and more readily available for the learning process.  

pH strips are still a waste of money.  The pH of most bar soaps is between 9-12.  And since soap is an alkaline SALT, it throws the ability to measure the pH off even more.  You would need to dilute the soap properly in order to measure it with proper lab equipment.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

My theory with using non clogging oils with a superfat level....is what ever oil is left over needs to be a non clogging oil and since there is no way to know what oil the lye is going to leave free...that is where my thinking was going with this whole face soap thing for oily skin. So it was not so much for whatever properties of the oil IN the soap part of the bar it was for what was left over. Does anyone ever not superfat? What about a face bar with no superfat, that way no oil is left to give me that "greasy" feeling that I get.


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## kchaystack (Jun 16, 2016)

Olive oil does create a hard bar - after about a 1 year cure.  

As for pH strips - they only tell you what the pH is - this does not tell you if you have lye that has not reacted with oil (or the air).  Your soap will have a pH from about 9 to as high as 12 (usually, you know how ranges work if you have a science background).  The best way to tell is the zap test. 

No one is saying your first bar is bad or not good.  Most home made soaps will be better than what you buy in the store.  We are saying:

1. It will be even better with a proper cure.  
2. You can make something just as good without all the fancy oils. 

You said you did not want to make a bunch of soap to test different oils because of cost - well - we are telling you that you can save a bunch of money on your oils.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

I don't mind a bar that is not rock hard. I don't think I would make soap that needed to cure for a year. I just do not have the space. I do not have any intention of selling soap, this is just for me....so like I said, to make and test repeatedly when I can make some bold moves from the start makes the most sense to me. I spent 4 months researching, reading, buying books, reading forums, so I feel I have the basics down and my first soap turned out great with no reasons to complain or change it if I find it works over time. I made 3 pounds of soap and it will take me a long time to use it all so I have to resist the urge to keep making and making soap which is why I want to try something unconventional with the face soap so I don't keep making soap that is going to go bad or be given away (THAT is expensive)....for those of you that sell soap, it makes sense. But for people like me who just want it personally, I would rather invest the money and try to get it closer to right than wrong the first few times. Oils are already bought at this point so I will just play with the ones I have and see what I get.


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## kchaystack (Jun 16, 2016)

All right then, I won't bother you with any of my suggestions, even when you ask.  Thanks and have fun.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

Lol, yep, pH goes to 14. So can someone comment on the remaining oil in a superfatted soap? Does it not make sense that is be a non clogging oil as it will still be an oil yes? If I were to make a 100% coconut oil soap with a 20% superfat....20% coconut oil is left loose in the soap, that 20% is known to be a skin clogging oil. That is where my thinking is going with this....if that left over oil is a non clogging oil such as high linoleic safflower oil....that has to be better for oily skin in my thinking.
Oh boy gotta love forums! I guess a beginner is supposed to follow beginner rules and not think outside the box for fear of offending the expert soapers....my apologies kchaystack. That is the feeling I have gotten here....." since you are new, please do not do anything but basic things until you get it" What am I missing here, is there a certain number of batches that takes you from beginner to what status that then gives you the go ahead to be bold. I am sorry, I did not think this would happen here but I guess all forums are like this....signing off and out, did not expect this kind of response.


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## shunt2011 (Jun 16, 2016)

skinnybonedog said:


> My theory with using non clogging oils with a superfat level....is what ever oil is left over needs to be a non clogging oil and since there is no way to know what oil the lye is going to leave free...that is where my thinking was going with this whole face soap thing for oily skin. So it was not so much for whatever properties of the oil IN the soap part of the bar it was for what was left over. Does anyone ever not superfat? What about a face bar with no superfat, that way no oil is left to give me that "greasy" feeling that I get.


 
You can use a 0 superfat but remember when you stip too much oil off your skin it will cause it to produce more.  You want gentle cleansing not skin stripping.   I have super oily skin, I have also suffered with acne since I was a kid. (56 now).  I use a 80% CO salt bar with 20% SF.  My skin is the clearest and in the best condition it's been in my life.  So, it took a lot of trial and testing to find what worked for my skin.  My kids swear by it as well.  I only use it 3-4 times a week though.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

I guess I can respond to the kind people and not the unkind....so shunt2011, the 20% superfat....that is just free oils that can clog oily skin. Are you using oils known to not block pores? I am seeing no one answer this question and it is leaving me to think that I may be onto something in thinking that any superfat oil needs to be non-comedogenic, which means the whole batch needs to be made with non-comedogenic oils since there is no way to know which oils will be left in the soap.

Plan to look at some salt bar options as those seem interesting


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## shunt2011 (Jun 16, 2016)

skinnybonedog said:


> I guess I can respond to the kind people and not the unkind....so shunt2011, the 20% superfat....that is just free oils that can clog oily skin. Are you using oils known to not block pores? I am seeing no one answer this question and it is leaving me to think that I may be onto something in thinking that any superfat oil needs to be non-comedogenic, which means the whole batch needs to be made with non-comedogenic oils since there is no way to know which oils will be left in the soap.


 
They have answered your question. When it goes through the soap process the oils change. Just because something is pore clogging in their non-soap form doesn't mean it will be the same in soap. Even with a superfat. Therefore, I can use high Coconut or other oils with no adverse effect on my skin. It's not just the comedogenic factor it's also if you over cleanse your skin you will cause more oil production therefore more clogged pores and more breakouts. 

You may find out that you can use any handmade soap with no issues. One of my daughters finds the Salt Soap a bit drying but uses my regular bar on her face and swears by it. Her skin is relatively clear as well. (also subject to breakout/acne). 

I highly recommend you let your soap cure appropriately and then see if you like it. 

Try keepin your CO relatively low if it's too drying...10%. Just because it isn't super bubbly doesn't mean it won't clean and not strip your skin.

I wouldn't use a 0 SF soap on my face personally. 

There is a recipe on this forum for Genny's Shampoo bar and that makes an awesome soap (not shampoo). It's gentle and a wonderful body and facial bar as well.

My salt bar recipe (I've shared it here many times):
80% CO
15% Avocado or Olive
5% Castor Oil
20% SF
30-40% Salt added at trace (I use sea salt).


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

Thanks, will look up the shampoo bar/soap


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## dixiedragon (Jun 16, 2016)

Regarding the superfat being pour clogging - an option for that is to do hot process. You can use the same recipes as cold process.

For example, maybe something like:
5% superfat

20% coconut
20% olive
20% rice bran
30% shea
5% castor
5% avocado

Add everything BUT the avocado. Mix with your lye water. Cook in a crockpot or in a stainless steel pot on the stove. Google "hot process soap" for pics and videos. When the soap goes through what we call "Vaseline stage", it is mostly saponified. THEN add your avocado oil. Stir well, then pour/glop into the mold. That way, the avocado oil will be (mostly) untouched by lye.

I know you want to make a "special" soap - but there's a reason we're urging you to at least try some of our "generic" recipes first. We know that these recipes WORK and they make good soap!

Here's a recipe somebody on the forum recommended (sorry, I didn't write down the forum member)! It's on my list to try:

2% superfat
Castor 5%
Coconut 20%
Shea 50%
Sunflower (high oleic) 25%

This recipe has a low superfat b/c shea butter has a lot of unsaponifiables - things that don't become soap - so the low superfat makes it bubbly.

ETA: Do you make pot roast? Have you noticed that while there are a lot of subtle tweaks and variations, the recipes have certain fundamental similarities? Listening to your recipe ideas is kind of like somebody saying, "I want to make pot roast. But SPECIAL pot roast, not generic pot roast. So I'm going to add spinach, caviar, and foie gras, because these things contain nutrients that I want in my pot roast." There is an excellent reason that pot roast doesn't contain spinach, caviar and foie gras. Because that would be extremely expensive yet gross pot roast.


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## earlene (Jun 16, 2016)

skinnybonedog said:


> I would just keep buying the handmade soap from a local place I had been getting it (but when I found out she used palm oil, I vowed to make my own). I want something more special than a generic classic soap I guess.



Is this what you were using on your face before?  Is it possible you could use the list of ingredients from the soap your face liked to work on a formula for yourself?  It is just a thought. 

If you used the same soap (from the local artisan) for body & face, then that would make it even easier.  You would just have to find a replacement for the palm.  Not that hard, as you've had many good suggestions here already.  But the ingredient list, if following labeling requirements would have the listing in descending order in decreasing amounts.  It won't give you the exact formula, but it gives you a jumping off point.  From there, your experimentation would not have to be so very expensive.

I agree that the soap does not have to be rock hard.  Personally I don't like extremely hard bars of soap myself, particularly if I drop them on my toes.  :think:  But it is nice when they don't melt away really quickly, which does happen if I use a little sliver to test out a new soap's lathering ability.  Your soap is going to have a good long cure time if you made 3 pounds and it will take you 'forever' to use it all up.  You will see the difference in the longer cure versus the uncured state that you are using now, with each subsequent bar of soap you use.  You may find it useful to take a few notes on your impressions of the soap at 2 weeks (now), 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks, etc.  How it feels (milder with more time, usually), how it lathers, how long it lasts once you first get it wet (usually lasts longer as it ages.)

Good luck with your next soap, and I hope it turns out as well as you hope.


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## dixiedragon (Jun 16, 2016)

If you get a good food scale that will measure in grams, you can safely make a 1 lb batch. And keep in mind, Christmas is only 6 months away. So you can gift your bars that didn't quite work out.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

Actually, I think I am going to make Genny's shampoo bar and try it for everything. I am going on a trip end of August so perfect amount of time to cure it. But am going to sub the half the soybean oil for meadowfoam (I don't have soybean)....and up one of the other oils. Might do this tonight.....


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## BlackDog (Jun 16, 2016)

skinnybonedog, if you are looking for an animal- and palm- free bar that doesn't take a billion years to cure, I'll echo the poster who suggested a bastille.  I've used bars from the following recipe at 6 weeks with good results, and they're gentle enough for the face:

68% olive
20% coconut
7% shea butter
5% castor

I also add 2 tsp of sugar per pound of oils to help with the lather.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 16, 2016)

Blackdog, thanks, that sounds like a nice bar also.


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## penelopejane (Jun 16, 2016)

The reason everyone says you need to experiment is that everyone's skin is unfortunately different so someone's "perfect soap" may not work for everyone. 

I can't use coconut oil and choose not to use palm oil or lard do Ginnys soap (modified a bit) is the best one for my skin. My DH uses 100% Castile fragrance free. Everyone is different.  CP soap makes a prettier soap than HP.


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## SuzanneDee (Jun 16, 2016)

skinnybonedog said:


> all those chemical laden products....... with a science background....



Just wanted to point out that as you have a science background you, of course, realize "chemical laden" is incorrect. Eveything is chemical except perhaps, a void.


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## Arimara (Jun 16, 2016)

skinnybonedog said:


> I don't mind a bar that is not rock hard. I don't think I would make soap that needed to cure for a year. I just do not have the space. I do not have any intention of selling soap, this is just for me....so like I said, to make and test repeatedly when I can make some bold moves from the start makes the most sense to me. I spent 4 months researching, reading, buying books, reading forums, so I feel I have the basics down and my first soap turned out great with no reasons to complain or change it if I find it works over time. I made 3 pounds of soap and it will take me a long time to use it all so I have to resist the urge to keep making and making soap which is why I want to try something unconventional with the face soap so I don't keep making soap that is going to go bad or be given away (THAT is expensive)....for those of you that sell soap, it makes sense. But for people like me who just want it personally, I would rather invest the money and try to get it closer to right than wrong the first few times. Oils are already bought at this point so I will just play with the ones I have and see what I get.



1. Starting off with a pound of soap would really make things easier for you, especially for testing batches.

2. You have to have patience not matter what. I've used 2 castiles and they were both nice and worth the wait.  going back to the one pound batch, a year isn't a bad length of time to wait for a pound of soap to cure.

3. There's no set amount of soaps that will get you into the intermediate stages of soaping. You just have to soap until you get the basics. your eagerness, as I read it, will work against you because you lack patience to properly cure your soap. Your soap now can be considered trash now but if you waited 3 months, it would not be. Your recipe doesn't look too bad but it's foolish to waste an expensive oil (meadowfoam) in a soap instead of at least a shea butter whip. Really good oils truly shine in creams, whips, and lotions.

4. This is just me but reading about a craft doesn't make you proficient in it. It's not until you actually make the goal product that you will see how things work. After that, you keep practicing and researching to add to your working knowledge so that you eventually become knowledgeable about what you are doing. Ex- I can knit via loom or with needles. I have read how to do all sorts of stitches for each but until I get the basics down and practice the new stitches, I won't really have a feel for how to do them.

5. Please, don't ever judge any homemade soaps as generic in the negative. They may not seem special to you but all soaps at some point was someone else's pride and joy. Even the commercialized soap bars started out as someone's special recipe. Some of the best soaps I've used come from those "generic" recipes you're reluctant to give a chance and the people who made them did only a little tweaking here and there. Soaping is about also about releasing those creative juices but you need a solid foundation to grow up on.



SuzanneDee said:


> Just wanted to point out that as you have a science background you, of course, realize "chemical laden" is incorrect. Eveything is chemical except perhaps, a void.



I'm going to keep an eye on you. =p


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## Dahila (Jun 16, 2016)

You have many oils and breakouts, why do not try to make a face wash,  with gentle surfacants ? Read about it on http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/
To wash your face you actually do not need soap, oat's water will be good..  It helps to keep skin clear and helps with healing. Oily skin, really needs to be treated especially gentle   Try making lotion, there are some oil, which help with acne; like Hazelnut oil, add silk and you can get wonderful lotion for your skin. I use soap for my body.  My syndet shampoo bar (no soap) on hair and face ,  Once a week I use my very gentle Activated charcoal soap based on lard and tallow.   You want vegan, everyone think vegan soap is good and, using lard is a waste product you utilize, no one kill an animal to have lard.  When we kill an animal, it is our responsiblity, not to waste, and use everything.. 
I am old woman and I get breakouts too,  I have a combination skin, with kind of oily T-zone. Think about checking some blogs, and get more info, it does not seem you like the answers, here.  Even so many people here are making soaps for years........
Oh I made this soap (I like her blog) and it looks and feel wonderful after two weeks of curing, but I will cure it another 6-8 
http://www.lovinsoap.com/2015/12/how-to-make-baby-soap-buttermilk-bastille-baby-bar/


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## Bamagirl (Jun 17, 2016)

I think you are getting some really good advice here. I too researched and read through these forums from Sept-Dec (I got all my soaping equipment as a Christmas gift) and "felt" like I knew what to do and expect. I didn't make my first batch of soap until Jan and I done as I was advised and made a 1 lb batch of soap based on what I considered proven recipes here. Let me tell you, that generic soap was the best thing that had ever touched my skin. I still make that soap with only a slight tweak to the percentages because it is that good and does more for my skin than anything I have ever used. I have never gone wrong with the advice I have gotten here. Yes, I know you are ready to experiment and come up with fancy soaps, but you really need to know how soap behaves first. Yes, reading and researching helps, but hands on experience and making simple recipes that don't have problems lets you know what soap is supposed to do and then when you get ready to make fancy soap, you will be able to recognize the potential problems much easier.

I have probably make 10-20 batches of soap so far and yet, I still know that I am a "newbie" and it sure helps that I can come on here and get advice from all these people who are so willing to help. They will troubleshoot with you and tell you "hey, I tried that and it didn't work" and for me, I love it because it saves me money on batches not wasted.


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## dixiedragon (Jun 17, 2016)

skinnybonedog said:


> Wow, SuzanneDee, thank you so much for pointing that out, do not know how I would have gotten through my day had you not taken the time to point that out to me....what is with some of you people here? Maybe make some soap instead of saying things that really have no value and no kindness. I was not knocking anyone's "generic" soap, this was not a personal attack on anyone's soap recipe but some people here have reminded my why I stay off forums as it really seems to bring out the evil in people. For those of you who have been sane and responded with ration and kindness, I thank you....for the others, all I can say is maybe learn to be kind and remember the saying, "if you don't have anything nice to say..."


 
And I'm out. Since you know everything, why are you even here?


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## galaxyMLP (Jun 17, 2016)

I do have to agree that you may not want to use some of those more expensive oils to make soap. And it has nothing to do with them being expensive. 

Here is the explanation for why you shouldn't rely on pH strips. All soap is alkaline. When we zap test our soap, we aren't looking for a specific pH, we're looking for excess caustic. The actual pH of the soap can range between 8-11 dependent on the recipe. That means that while at a pH of 11, one soap will be ok where another will not. pH will not tell us our soap is safe (even if it was 100% accurate).

On top of that, due to the micelles that soap forms in water, pH readings are not likely to be accurate. Micelles form aggregates of molecules and sometimes "shield" stuff from being seen. That means you can read a pH that is artificially low. 

Standard pH testing for soap is done at a 1% solution to limit the micelle interaction and formation and done with a probe, not test strips or an indicator. 

There is a reason so many people use certain oils in soap. It comes down to the fatty acid profile and has nothing to do with comedogenic ratings. Once you make soaps, you are left with alkali salts of fatty acids. These fatty acids will behave differently depending on length, and structure. 

Lauric and Myristic acids found in coconut oil form a highly cleansing soap. So much so that it is important to highly SF a bar made with high coconut oil (or another oil high in those FA). You are diminishing some of the cleansing action by leaving oils in the soap. That means it's not likely depositing those oils on your skin, but removing less from your own skin than a 0% SF would. Even if small amounts of coconut oil are left behind, it would be unlikely to be comedogenic. 

If you are highly concerned about comedogenic ratings, you could SF as above using hot process. You will be limited in creativity. 

About the oils you chose: 

Argan, has quite a bit of linoleic acid along with oleic acid. For recipe purposes, you can replace it with an 75/25 split of olive oil and something high in linoleic/linolenic  oil like safflower, or canola. *Please see safflower oil for more info

Kokum, Mango, Shea, all are high in stearic acid (kokum having the highest) and very similar in soap. It may be wise to do a split of cocoa butter and shea here as cocoa has some palmatic acids too and will bring more balance to a recipe. The three butters you chose are very similar. I would also keep the butter content at 15-20% or below to make sure lather isn't inhibited too much. 

Meadow foam oil: high in very long chain fatty acids, not found commonly in other oils. Long chain fatty acids don't tend to make the best soap. The ones in meadowfoam have been compared to oleic acid and will likely make even more goop and slime than a Castile would. However, you can try it if you wish to. If you want to omit it, olive oil is a great replacement. As is high oleic sunflower/safflower

Safflower (regular): high in linoleic acid. Should be used at less than 15% of a recipe to diminish the chances of DOS. Some people love this fatty acid in soap, others do not. 

Castor: only source of ricinoleic acid. Used in many recipes. Reccomended to be used at less than 10% to cut down on stickiness. Thought to increase soap solubility. Will not make a bubbly soap on its own. 

This would be my recipe to you:

Olive: 57%

Safflower: 15%

Cocoa butter: 10%

Shea butter: 5%

Meadowfoam: 5% (can be replaced with olive)

Castor oil: 8%

This should make a conditioning, decently balanced bar with some lather. I would add sugar to the soap as well. You may find you don't want to use safflower or meadow foam. Both can be replaced with olive. If you don't want to use olive, use high oleic safflower or sunflower. You may want to try avocado oil to replace some of the olive as it has some myristic acid in it to help with a tiny bit more bubbles. 

Your roommate may not even be feeling excess fat/SF, but soap scum and thinking it is left over oil. When I made the switch from commercial surfactants to bar soap it took me a while to get used to that feeling. And I had to start adding sodium citrate to help chelate hard water minerals and reduce that soap scum to really start enjoying soap.

Your science background may help you understand more about the science of soap, but it doesn't make you more knowledgeable about soap. Soap takes a long time to master and understand the many facets of. I have a chemistry background and it's taken me years to learn many things about soaping. Much of that is because there is just so much to learn about it. It's about applying the knowledge and experimenting like any science. I don't consider myself a master even after 4.5 years. I don't think I ever will. 

I hope you are not discouraged from continuing to discuss your experiments here. We always look forward to new people coming and giving ideas. I wanted to shed some light as to where people were coming from.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 17, 2016)

Amazing....where did I say I know everything...did not even imply it. What I came here asking for was the EXPERIENCE of those here to help me make a more unique soap that might have qualities above and beyond a basic bar by using oils that have unique qualities. And what I got from some of you is nitpicking about things that have nothing to do with soap and taking things personally that have nothing to do with those of you who think I am knocking a basic bar as if you invented it. As to the word laden "_Definition_ of _laden_. : loaded heavily with something" so I do not consider a handmade soap laden with chemicals since the lye is no longer lye once the process is complete. Why do some of you feel the need to pick on people...why do people on forums correct people if they spell something wrong, why is there so little kindness in the world in general and I hate to see it show up when I am trying to learn about soap. But my experience in many forums is when people can not see your face and there is no personal responsibility for what you say, people say some really hurtful and nasty things because they can get away with it and while I try to ignore it, these days where every **** day someone is being shot by some idiot, I just have much less tolerance for mean behavior just because someone can hide in their house and type nasty things to a stranger (someone want to comment on my run-on sentence?). My reason for stating I have a science background was simply to say I understand the basics and get the ideas....not that I am a chemical engineer but yet a few of you sling that at me for no reason, like I was saying I am better than you...this is NOT personal about any of you, as I do not know you. So where I am coming from is above and when I was told, "well, since you are new stick to the basics" I hear ya, but that was frustrating because that was why I came here, to get ideas from those who ARE experienced to help with doing something that maybe a newbie should not be doing but is fully capable of doing with some ideas and thoughts from the experts. I know nothing "Jon Snow" when it comes to soap as compared to you all here....that is WHY I came here.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 17, 2016)

GalaxyMLP....thanks, that was helpful info!


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 17, 2016)

And this sounds great....I just may do what you suggested and sub some olive for avocado!

"This would be my recipe to you:

Olive: 57%

Safflower: 15%

Cocoa butter: 10%

Shea butter: 5%

Meadowfoam: 5% (can be replaced with olive)

Castor oil: 8%"





galaxyMLP said:


> I do have to agree that you may not want to use some of those more expensive oils to make soap. And it has nothing to do with them being expensive.
> 
> Here is the explanation for why you shouldn't rely on pH strips. All soap is alkaline. When we zap test our soap, we aren't looking for a specific pH, we're looking for excess caustic. The actual pH of the soap can range between 8-11 dependent on the recipe. That means that while at a pH of 11, one soap will be ok where another will not. pH will not tell us our soap is safe (even if it was 100% accurate).
> 
> ...


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## galaxyMLP (Jun 17, 2016)

We all get very protective of each other here. A forum is somewhat like a family and if we perceive someone is being "attacked" (whether true or not) it is going to make us go on the defensive. Sometimes that comes off as mean. It is hard to read tone through text. 

I know it can get difficult to understand each other especially before we are aware of how we type. You came here asking for help and all of the help you originally received seemed to be thrown back at the sender. When we pointed that out, you got defensive and said more things that seemed to be hurtful or like you knew exactly what you were doing. Even if that wasn't your intention. 

I was insulted by your "science" comment because I took it to mean you were some kind of chemist or very scientific person and didn't need advice from small minded people like us. Yes, that's exactly how I took it. It hurt because many of us have degrees or backgrounds in science and it still takes years to master. I can't imagine how it would've felt for someone without that background to read that. So many of our members have grown and learned so much here. (Edit: I now realize that is not what you were saying)

I ultimately chose to ignore my hurt and try to address you as best I could. I don't normally provide responses like I just did but I could tell you wanted explanations as to why we were not recommending your choice of oils. You did receive very good advice in all the previous posts. 

Soap takes time and little tweaks can make a big difference. All everyone was trying to say in the beginning was that you may want to take it slow and learn what each oil or fatty acid brings to the party before wasting money on expensive oils. Especially since you even mentioned you didn't want to waste the money. All they were trying to do was look out for your best interests. 

We have a very nice sticky in the introductory forum that explains this forums etiquette. It's impossible to know where someone is coming from without them explaining themselves. We all say things that may not be the best but we also don't know which side of crazy you come from because we're all a little (ok let's face it, a lot) crazy. 

I hope you aren't offended by this post but I really wanted to explain myself and how I perceived the situation. I could be wrong.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 17, 2016)

GalaxyMLP,

Thank you and no, I in no way meant to offend by the science comment....it was only to tell you all that I did not just watch a youtube video and decide to make soap...that I had thought this all out very well and understood the concepts due to my background. And I did not mean to offend anyone who does not have a science background. It was ONLY to tell a fact about me, not a knock down of any of you. We all tend to take things so personally when nothing I say here at this point could be personal since I know no one here, but I apologize if that is how it was taken. I researched and read, got books and read some more. I hate to do things poorly. I did not mean to imply I knew more than anyone here because I do not. The reason I was defending was because I didn't feel I needed to keep to basic recipes just because I am new yet that was what I was being told....since you are new please stick to the basics until you "get it"...so that pushed my buttons, but I kept trying and then started getting the nasty posts. I came here FOR the expertise you all have to get thoughts and ideas of doing something other than "basic"....I was not knocking basic, just wanted to do more than basic....and again, that is not personal to anyone here. So I am sorry to anyone that was offended, was never my intention.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 17, 2016)

That might well be part of the problem - you want to stand on our shoulders to leap far in to the path ahead.  But as others have said, soaping is not just a case of "do x and y happens and then you end up with z" - it is a lot more fluid than that and no amount of reading or research in any way makes up for making some soap. 

Then of course comes the cost issue - you don't want to wast a lot of money, no one does.  So jumping in with expensive oils when you don't actually know what you are doing.  You think you know, but you really don't know as much as you think you know, because a lot of soaping comes from experience.  But the best is personal experience, because your particular set up, humidity, pan size and a trillion other variables all combine to make a direct comparison with the next person very hard and when you also factor in the natural variance even between two bottles of the same brand of the same oil, you get in to a place where YOU really need to know what is what, rather than just being told what it is.

That is why basic was suggested - because it's cheap, easy and gets you used to how it goes.  Now, I really don't care what you think of this advice, it is simply my advice.  You can take it or leave it.

For the record, even after all of the lye is gone, the soap left over is still a chemical.  That was the point SuzanneDee was making - everything is a chemical.  The oils, the lye, the soap - even the expensive oils, are all chemicals.  We get to choose WHICH chemicals go in to our soap, but it would be The Emperor's New Soap if you tried to make some with no chemicals at all.


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## skinnybonedog (Jun 17, 2016)

Well, seems to be many problems....but I will just do my thing and since everyone keeps saying I have to learn by doing, then I will and don't see a reason then to ask for thoughts from the "experts" directly then if the variables are so variable....thanks. I will keep reading and make my soaps as I want whether they be basic or not. The point was missed regarding "chemical laden" it is all relative....if I look at my bottle of "natural" face wash and compare it with my handmade soap.....huge difference and that was ALL I meant....I was not being literal. If we want to get into semantics and literal....again, all this has gone way off base from what I came here for so. Happy soaping to all and to remain happy and kind....I will now bow out as well.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> That might well be part of the problem - you want to stand on our shoulders to leap far in to the path ahead.  But as others have said, soaping is not just a case of "do x and y happens and then you end up with z" - it is a lot more fluid than that and no amount of reading or research in any way makes up for making some soap.
> 
> Then of course comes the cost issue - you don't want to wast a lot of money, no one does.  So jumping in with expensive oils when you don't actually know what you are doing.  You think you know, but you really don't know as much as you think you know, because a lot of soaping comes from experience.  But the best is personal experience, because your particular set up, humidity, pan size and a trillion other variables all combine to make a direct comparison with the next person very hard and when you also factor in the natural variance even between two bottles of the same brand of the same oil, you get in to a place where YOU really need to know what is what, rather than just being told what it is.
> 
> ...


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## shunt2011 (Jun 17, 2016)

skinnybonedog said:


> Well, seems to be many problems....but I will just do my thing and since everyone keeps saying I have to learn by doing, then I will and don't see a reason then to ask for thoughts from the "experts" directly then if the variables are so variable....thanks. I will keep reading and make my soaps as I want whether they be basic or not. The point was missed regarding "chemical laden" it is all relative....if I look at my bottle of "natural" face wash and compare it with my handmade soap.....huge difference and that was ALL I meant....I was not being literal. If we want to get into semantics and literal....again, all this has gone way off base from what I came here for so. Happy soaping to all and to remain happy and kind....I will now bow out as well.


 
Okay, to step in, you have now made 2 I'm leaving posts.  This is a forum violation.   Which aparently you have not read though directed to in the beginning.   So, if you want to leave, please just leave.  Otherwise, read the rules and go foward.

You have proven to be just about as disrespectful as you have accused others of being.   

Make your soap and let us know how it goes.   You are bent on doing it your way so by all means do it.  That's your option and part of the fun of making soap.   

I wish you happy soaping.


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## Steve85569 (Jun 17, 2016)

skinnybonedog,
I have to admit I have been chuckling about the "science background" in your comments. I was a materials engineer for years but when I got here I quickly realized how little I knew about making soap.
If you are here to learn about making soap you have definitely come to the right place. There are a lot of absolutely awesome teachers here ( including experience).

I do not feel that anyone here is trying to tell you that you are doing soap "wrong" but rather trying to help you improve in the craft of handmade soap.


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## artemis (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm not sure how to delete one of my comments, sorry for the non-sequiter....


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## lenarenee (Jun 18, 2016)

The op doesn't strike me as trying to be disrespectful. I think he/she is looking for a guarantee; some comments he makes remind me of myself before I made my first batch. Being on a budget meant I didn't want to waste material. At the time I joined the forum, the consensus was newbies asking for tried and true recipes were rude and lazy. I was neither, but knew if I had a couple of failures right off the bat I'd give up on this expensive hobby. Not to sound like a broken record, but Hazel gave me a basic soap recipe for my first batch and I will be eternally grateful to her for that successful soap. However, it is not a recipe I continue to use.

To the op:  Some of your questions can only be answered by you, you have to experience the process and the end result of your chosen recipes yourself.  No 2 soapers agree 100% on all aspects of soaping, and one soapers favorite recipe is anothers  nightmare.

Mostly, soaping has no shortcuts, and for the shortcuts out there - few are worth it.

I hope you do try soaping despite the time and experimentation it takes because soaping is a very fulfilling hobby for just those reasons.


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## Arimara (Jun 18, 2016)

lenarenee said:


> The op doesn't strike me as trying to be disrespectful. I think he/she is looking for a guarantee; some comments he makes remind me of myself before I made my first batch. Being on a budget meant I didn't want to waste material. At the time I joined the forum, the consensus was newbies asking for tried and true recipes were rude and lazy. I was neither, but knew if I had a couple of failures right off the bat I'd give up on this expensive hobby. Not to sound like a broken record, but Hazel gave me a basic soap recipe for my first batch and I will be eternally grateful to her for that successful soap. However, it is not a recipe I continue to use.
> 
> To the op:  Some of your questions can only be answered by you, you have to experience the process and the end result of your chosen recipes yourself.  No 2 soapers agree 100% on all aspects of soaping, and one soapers favorite recipe is anothers  nightmare.
> 
> ...



I understand where you're coming from and taking into the fact that you can't read vocal tones, I would still say the OP was being hardheaded to put it nicely. I've observed a few non-forum savvy people here and they were nowhere near as rude and were generally well intentioned, even when they made forum "taboos". Some didn't argue and assume that we didn't miss the point and for as many people who answered this thread, someone should, would or could have understood their point.

I find it a little hard to believe that someone could be totally unaware of how their written word choices could be perceived and would play the victim. That person was giving gold of advice and their responses showed them to be impatient, possible self absorbed and mostly unreceptive to advice given by people who have been soaping for longer than I have (I've been at this for 9 months). If you're going to reject the words of veteran soapers who only said that you should soap with cheaper oils and make smaller batches to conserve money, you get what you get at that point. If the OP develops severe skin issues because of their sheer stupidity in using a week old soap on their face, especially after saying they did all this research, it's a lesson well learned and deserved. Heartless as it may seem, I won't shed a tear nor bat my eyes about it. I just hope other newbies see this as how NOT to learn to soap. I'm all for newbies asking questions but they really have to want the answers to those questions to.

Though I'm younger, I have acne prone combo skin. The best things I've done for my skin is use cool water, some witch hazel spritzed on a baby wipe, and finally a cream or one of my body whips since I leave those unscented. Soap can actually cause some breakouts if it's too cleansing so sometimes, it's better not to use soap on your face for a time. But when I do use a soap, It's at the end of the day when I can slough of the collected yuck-yuck of the outside world.

I apologize for the rant.


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## Susie (Jun 18, 2016)

There is very little more frustrating than to be asked for your opinion/recipes, then have the person argue with what you tell them.  They should not ask if they do not want the answers.


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## lenarenee (Jun 18, 2016)

Arimara said:


> I understand where you're coming from and taking into the fact that you can't read vocal tones, I would still say the OP was being hardheaded to put it nicely. I've observed a few non-forum savvy people here and they were nowhere near as rude and were generally well intentioned, even when they made forum "taboos". Some didn't argue and assume that we didn't miss the point and for as many people who answered this thread, someone should, would or could have understood their point.
> 
> I find it a little hard to believe that someone could be totally unaware of how their written word choices could be perceived and would play the victim. That person was giving gold of advice and their responses showed them to be impatient, possible self absorbed and mostly unreceptive to advice given by people who have been soaping for longer than I have (I've been at this for 9 months). If you're going to reject the words of veteran soapers who only said that you should soap with cheaper oils and make smaller batches to conserve money, you get what you get at that point. If the OP develops severe skin issues because of their sheer stupidity in using a week old soap on their face, especially after saying they did all this research, it's a lesson well learned and deserved. Heartless as it may seem, I won't shed a tear nor bat my eyes about it. I just hope other newbies see this as how NOT to learn to soap. I'm all for newbies asking questions but they really have to want the answers to those questions to.
> 
> ...


 
No need to apologize for the rant Arimara. You and the majority of the people here enjoy teaching others about soaping, so of course its frustrating when newbies seem to reject it.

Just to explain my thinking a little further - and I'm not interested in trying to change anyone's opinion. I actually rather enjoyed the fact that the op was questioning the advice given and still wanting to do it his/her way. However, the op also showed signs of a modicum of willingness to learn and still intends to make soap. So guess what's going to happen? There'll be a feast of humble pie, then the real learning can begin. And if this person sticks with it - they'll be a great soaper. 

So many of us learn the hard way; myself included.


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## Arimara (Jun 18, 2016)

lenarenee said:


> No need to apologize for the rant Arimara. You and the majority of the people here enjoy teaching others about soaping, so of course its frustrating when newbies seem to reject it.
> 
> Just to explain my thinking a little further - and I'm not interested in trying to change anyone's opinion. I actually rather enjoyed the fact that the op was questioning the advice given and still wanting to do it his/her way. However, the op also showed signs of a modicum of willingness to learn and still intends to make soap. So guess what's going to happen? There'll be a feast of humble pie, then the real learning can begin. And if this person sticks with it - they'll be a great soaper.
> 
> So many of us learn the hard way; myself included.



I agree that 's good to question advice some times. It's never good to always take advice blindly. But it is as you say about them as well. My concern is that their roommate was given a soap that did her some harm. She may never know what the true root of that reaction was. That on some level saddens me.


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