# Is doing M&P Cheating? Like a Box Cake Mix?



## CookbookChef

I was having a discussion at a local craft fair with fellow soap makers. On the left side of the room they had a stand up with M&P Soaps, Lovely indeed...But the Price they listed was exactly the same price as the Cold Process Soap stand right next to them.  The Cold Process Soap people felt infringed upon because of the Labor of Love that they used while making and creating their soap. Where the Melt and P people just well, melted and Poured their soap , added some colors and or sprinkles and such, and the prices where the same.  Each bar was $4.50 for BOTH the M&P and the Cold Process Soap. The Cold process soap ppl had to CREATE the bars, but researching what oils and butters went well together, had to risk their own homes using caustic lye and then had to let their soaps cure for 4 to 6 weeks, using space in their homes and or garages all this time. They love what they did to create such works of Art, but to be set side by side next to a stand that did all Melt and P was insulting to them. It would not of been so , but the prices were all the same for both stands. The cold process soap people did not feel it was FAIR. The M&P Stand literally melted their base, which has in it a bunch of stuff that is questionable anyway to many soap makers, and is quick, has litle to no risk, and the curing time is none! Now the feeling I got from the Cold process soap stand was this, that the RISK and TIME was all theirs, as well as the creativity, and felt insulted that such a quick soap could be made, and then sit besides them all the while having the same price. And the sales for the M&P Was almost MORE than the Cold Process stand too. People liked the bright white soap with bright colors and when they got to the cold process soap, alot of the soaps were created naturally without alot of colors and sparkles, but their soap was BETTER for the BUYER, but they had trouble convincing anyone of that cause the M&P Soaps looked so decorated and pretty. The Cold PROCESS PPL Said that TO THEM, the M&P Is like the person who makes a Wedding cake out of that .99 cents box mix from the store and uses canned frosting compared to the Artisan who makes her wedding cake from scratch along with custom made butter-cream frosting. To the customers, if both look nice, they will equally buy the cakes without much thought, especially if the prices are exactly the same. They said that its just not fair that the M&P was getting almost more sales then them that day, where they were the ones to put the actual hard core work into it. Ya, It was a fun day talking to them. I stepped over and talked to the M&P table, and had a conversation with them. They felt differently, the conversation with them was "to bad, so sad for them...ha ha ha" "if we can get the sales for doing less work and less risk, then yea for us"..their attitude was more cold and that its a dog eat dog world. They cared less that the cold process was all natural, they were getting the sales for their PRETTY soap, that looked like cheese cakes and circus candy, and they cared less that the plain Jane, but all natural soap ppl, were having trouble. IT made for an interesting day. I was their to gain RESEARCH and since I am NEW to the soaping industry, both tables were VERY OPEN with me. I got to see two sides to a coin and it left me feeling like ya, the Melt and P. way is kinda cheating, its what I walked away with that day, just like the bakery who uses box cake mixes compared to the bakery who makes the cakes by scratch. The customer cares less over all, and just wants to go home with a cake, or a bar of soap that LOOKS pretty, without any consequence to ART and ALL NATURAL and the CRAFT of an Artisan!! So, what do you think? I am open to thinking different thoughts about melt and pour if somebody can tell me why I should NOT think of it as cheating. And why sell the soap at the same price as the cold process soap, that to me was wrong too and not fair to the ones who put the WORK and RISK involved with the cold process soap makers. Hmmmmm, alot to ponder!! Yes, I would LOVE to here what ya'll think  Is M&P Cheating?


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## tanglewood

I do both cold process & glycerine (M&P) as well as using M&P embeds for my CP soap. It actually is much more work for me to do the glycerine soap. Done correctly, it is time consuming & can be quite a challenge. I would never compare M&P to baking from a box.....not the way I do it.  You'll have people that prefer one over the other...some prefer natural looking soaps, & some prefer the "circus" of color as I do. No need to sling mud at each other...there's something for everyone when it comes to soap.


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## froggybean37

This subject comes up all the time, and in the end - everyone will have their own opinion. In the end, sometimes it just plain doesn't matter what does or does not go into a bar of soap - some people don't care what is in a bar as long as it's pretty, while others don't care what it looks like as long as it's full of great ingredients. Buyer's are absolutely entitled to buy for their own reasons. We can only be responsible for our own choices, our own marketing and our own pricing. If the CP stand felt cheated that they weren't making enough to offset the risks/time/commitment involved in CP, I would say they need to rethink their pricing. For the stand selling MP - MP soap doesn't come looking like a cheesecake or a circus candy - that takes time and effort as well. Neither stand is responsible for the other's pricing, or sales, or marketing. We can only do so much to inform a customer and the rest is up to them, to choose whether they want the pretty or the natural (although personally I disagree that soap needs to be one or the other).

I've done both MP & CP, and personally love both for their own reasons. I have nothing against which craft someone chooses, and don't agree with this ongoing "us vs. them" dialogue. MP soap isn't "cheating" - it is what it is.


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## jules92207

I don't understand why there is such a stigma with M&P. I only do CP/HP but that is because I don't have a strong creative streak and I think it takes a real artist to make the work you all make. Its still soap, you make it beautiful.

I am sure others are like me too and can admire and appreciate what you do.


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## Seawolfe

I would guess that by the time a person who makes melt and pour soap has bought decent bases, add-ins, moulds, colors, fragrances and whatnot, that M&P is more expensive than CP. I'm also willing to bet that some of the intricate M&P creations that I see take more time to make, simply because you only have a limited amount of time to finish CP before it sets up, and if know I can make 4 lbs of pretty CP soap in an hour or less. 

The only valid arguments I see are about the quality of the M&P base, but some are very good quality indeed. And some M&P sellers do the whole "my soap wasn't made with lye so it's better" which is just weird.  

Other than that it sounds like two women at a bake sale, dissing each other because one used store bought jam in her cake, and the other didn't hand make her sprinkles.  People buy what they like, it's that simple. Blaming your competitor means you're missing the point.


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## Aline

Exactly. M & P can be very creative and time-consuming (plus a good base is more expensive to buy than making from scratch). Just look at this shop: www.etsy.com/shop/Kokolele
Sounds like neither camp had wise attitudes.....


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## Lindy

I believe there is room for both.  The talent that I see expressed doing M&P blows me away, things that we will never achieve with CP/HP.  Yes we create beautiful products but we are limited and the new bases are not full of surfactants of dipropylene glycol.... I think there is a certain amount of arrogance and snobbery shown by our side of the room (CP/HP).  Personally I have no idea how they do it....


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## btz

Aline said:


> Exactly. M & P can be very creative and time-consuming (plus a good base is more expensive to buy than making from scratch). Just look at this shop: www.etsy.com/shop/Kokolele
> Sounds like neither camp had wise attitudes.....



Some of the soaps looks so good. If I bought 1, I won't use it, I'll just put it on display. 

As for MP vs CP, I think both sides has pro and cons. It's up to the customer to decide which one they want to buy.


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## Dorymae

What people need to realize is that it is apples and oranges.  M&P is not easy when it is done well.  It takes a long time to create intricate designs.

No, M&P is not making soap, but it is designing soap.  It takes quite a while to get good at making nice looking M&P.  

Since you compared it to cake, think of it as a beautifully decorated cake.  The cake may have come from a mix but it does not take away from the artistic ability of the design. In contrast maybe you make an awesome carrot cake from scratch.  Your design isn't as intricate but the cake is something you made all on your own.  They are two different things, and yes I think there is a place for both.


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## Susie

*Kudos to everyone!*

When I saw the original post, I thought, "Oh, no, here we go again."

But, nope, not on this forum.

So very, very nice for this not to have developed into a drama fest!


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## Jaccart789

I have NEVER felt a melt and pour soap that compares to CP. Even before I was soap making, I could tell the difference in the quality. I honestly think there is no comparison. I never buy anything for looks as far as soap is concerned. I am a person who reads ingredients and really care not only about what I eat but what I put on my skin. 

To those who make MP soap, does the lather and quality compare? I am wondering because the two times I have tried them I hated them. I am wondering if it was the formula and not so much MP. Can they be just as nice as traditional soap?

By the way to answer your question... MP is not cheating. It has its place and they are beautiful. Its the beauty of capitalism and competition is a good thing.


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## Lindy

Here is the ingredient list for the new style of MP:


> Coconut Oil, Palm Oil, Safflower Oil, Glycerin (vegetable origin), Unrefined Cocoa Butter , Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifer), Oat protein (conditioner), Titanium Dioxide (mineral whitener used in opaque soaps)


 
 I no longer see any artificial surfactants nor dipropylene glycol.  I have had friends give me MP to see what I thought, and these ladies were exception at what they did and their soap was every bit as nice as CP.  The old bases that were full of detergents & DPG were not pleasant to use....

 I used to be as snobby about MP until I was educated about it.  They are adding butters, and other additives for superfat and creating soaps that will rival ours to the uneducated.


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## CanaDawn

Sort of like "oh, but lye soap is harsh"....saying M&P isn't soaping is kinda..."old school" or undereducated about the nuances and improvements to the art/skill/craft/science.


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## Jaccart789

Lindy said:


> Here is the ingredient list for the new style of MP:
> 
> 
> I no longer see any artificial surfactants nor dipropylene glycol.  I have had friends give me MP to see what I thought, and these ladies were exception at what they did and their soap was every bit as nice as CP.  The old bases that were full of detergents & DPG were not pleasant to use....
> 
> I used to be as snobby about MP until I was educated about it.  They are adding butters, and other additives for superfat and creating soaps that will rival ours to the uneducated.



Thanks Lindy for clearing things up. I tried the MP soap from a friend who used the base from Michaels I think. It was probably what made the difference. I honestly haven't tried a good quality, so I might change my mind if I tried a good base.


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## pamielynn

There are MP soapers who I DO feel are "cheating". When someone takes a block of MP, melts it and pours in into rectangles, lets it set up then slaps a sticker on it (albeit a nice sticker) and calls it good - yeah, there's not too much effort going on there. They just want in on the soaping craze without having to deal with any of the issues that come with learning to soap.

And, I can tell the difference between a "from scratch" bar and an MP bar, even if it's a high-quality base. But, if you've got a soaper that's making MP into works of art, then I don't consider that "cheating"- it's just a different art form, but it's still not "making soap".


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## FGOriold

There are all kinds of melt and pour bases, some are true "soap" and some are detergents.  Don't judge the quality of one base based on another.  To each his own.  If someone wants to consider using M & P cheating, so be it. The methods and outcome can be so different I don't understand the constant comparison and whether one is better than the other.  Two different animals.  If someone wants to take a base, melt it down and pour it into a mold - go for it.  There is a market for that.  Consumers figure out what it is they want in a soap.  Some want simple, some ornate, some won't touch any of it and prefer store bought commercial products.

I happen to do both and for various reasons.  What I do with melt and pour cannot be done (or done easily) with cold process.  What I do with cold process (control ingredients for instance) cannot be done with melt and pour.  Many of my melt and pour soaps are priced much higher than my cold process - why, because of the labor that is involved in creating them.  IMO, the biggest misconception about using melt and pour is the statement you hear over and over "you just melt it, scent and color and pour into a mold". For some this may be true, but for those who create truly artistic and detailed soaps using a base it could not be farther from the truth.

You cannot control what other people do or what other people say about their soap or how they price it - you can only know your own product, what went into it, price it and promote it based on what makes it so good, special, unique, etc.


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## Stacy

While there are a lot of creative sides to MP vs HP/CP argument, I think a lot of it comes down to what the market will bear and the crafter's knowledge and approach.

Perhaps you're in a market with a high concentration of people who are very educated about what goes into the products they buy.  They want vegan and organic ingredients and nothing else will suffice. Depending on the ingredients of the M&P, they're going to go to the CP stand (who I'm presuming uses all those 'high quality' ingredients).

On the other hand maybe your main market is a tourist type or people who want eye candy, they're drawn to the sparkle and the glitter. They're going to gravitate to the M&P stand every time.

Maybe your customers are somewhere in the middle where and you need to educate your them about why your product is superior be it a high quality M&P base or CP/HP

If you're looking at the question from a business perspective, it's about doing the market research and finding out who you're selling to. You wont have a lot of luck selling winter coats in the Sahara even if your product is a higher quality than the guy selling umbrellas beside you.

Just my two cents


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## Aline

Also, there are organic M & P bases being sold now.


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## Amybell

Pricing product is about making a profit.  I don't see any reason why it would be wrong for someone making melt and pour soap to price their product the same as someone selling cold process soap.  It's not just about the labor but the cost of goods sold as well.  If you do the math, you might actually find the M&P soap makers who buy quality bases spending the same or even more on COGS than the CP soap maker.  Their labor isn't necessarily less, either, when you take into consideration the design time and the time it takes to put everything together.  M&P soap makers also spend time researching products and additives and making sample runs to experiment just like the CP soapmaker. The biggest difference is just that the M&P soap makers have a product they can sell almost immediately, versus the cure time necessary for CP soap.

I have--and do--make both and enjoy both processes.  Both can be challenging and create a beautiful product.

IMO, if the people at the CP table were upset about the sales of the MP soap table, they probably should spend less time complaining about M&P soap and more time developing a marketing and sales strategy that better promotes their products and increases their sales.  I don't mean to sound harsh saying that; it's just business 101.


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## Khanjari

This topic comes up Time and again. 

IMHO, I think that the sales only depend on what the buyer wants to buy.  Before I started soaping. .. I personally used to buy soaps that are 'different' from such craft fairs because I didn't want to buy a bar of soap for $5.00 to just take a shower. .... I can buy that soap for much less from SAMS OR COSTCO. I wanted to buy 'unique' soaps as keepsakes or gift aways (which now I know as MP) and I was paying for the price of the uniqueness of the soap! As a soaper, I only do MP because I like creativity and I can show that in MP. But at the same time, I have equal respect for CP and HP Soapers as they do try new recipes and are very particular of measurement and stuff! 
But this is just an example of ME as a BUYER/SHOPPER and as a SOAPER!!!!!!


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## Sheila Pullar

Here Here!


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## dixiedragon

I'm a CP maker myself. I don't think MP is cheating, I just think it is different. I am willing to buy an MP product that is very elaborate and fancy looking - something that could not be created with CP (or at least would be very difficult). But a simple MP bar - such as something with some swirls - I would not be willing to buy, b/c I can do that with CP.

As a customer, I want crafters to be honest with me. Don't tell me that you're using all natural essential oils and you have a Red Velvet Cake soap (or candle or lotion). Let your work speak for itself - don't lie or gloss over things.

I don't have a problem with an MP crafter charging the same thing as a CP crafter. What they charge is there business. If crafter A wants to charge $10 for a 4 oz bar and crafter B wants to charge $4, that's up to them. The only thing that bugs me if a MP crafter says they are making their soap from scratch. Be honest. "I buy a quality soap base that contains Palm Oil, Olive Oil and Cocoa butter (or whatever), then I add fragrance. I hand crafted these little raspberries and put them on top."

People often ask me if I use MP, and I always say, "No. I like to work with lye because it gives me the opportunity to seriously hurt myself."


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## Dorymae

dixiedragon said:


> The only thing that bugs me if a MP crafter says they are making their soap from scratch. Be honest.




The thing is there are M&P people out there that DO make their own base. If they do I'm all for that, it takes more time and they can make less mistakes because the soap can not be remelted as many times as the store bought stuff. Usually a quick look at the ingredients list will clue you in, although some store bought stuff is getting pretty good now so it will be harder to tell in a basic recipe.


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## Lindy

Dorymae why would you have a problem with the other method of making MP creating artistic pieces that we as CPers can never hope to achieve?


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## LunaSkye

CookbookChef said:


> the M&P Is like the person who makes a Wedding cake out of that .99 cents box mix from the store and uses canned frosting compared to the Artisan who makes her wedding cake from scratch along with custom made butter-cream frosting. To the customers, if both look nice, they will equally buy the cakes without much thought, especially if the prices are exactly the same.



I would not expect a lot of repeat customers with this kind of logic. If I bought both slices and ate them on the same day, I would have no problem telling everyone and anyone that the artisan is the better deal (If I wanted a boxed cake, I can buy it at the store for less). Ultimately, comparing M&P soaps and CP soaps is like comparing Michael Jackson to Prince. You simply can't compare the two equally, though both have their good points.

I love the visuals of M&P soaps and it is perfect for the artist that wants to create something beautiful. However, I will only use what is best for my skin on my skin, which is where CP come in for me. My only critique about the situation is how any organizer would put two soap businesses side by side? One is bound to be hurt by the other. I hope the CP soapers have better days than that.

P.S.: it's my opinion that M&P is only cheating if you pass it off as something you created without putting much work to it. I've seen some bases made without most (if not all) of the questionable ingredients.


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## Dorymae

Lindy said:


> Dorymae why would you have a problem with the other method of making MP creating artistic pieces that we as CPers can never hope to achieve?



Where did I ever say I had a problem with it?  I thought I was clear in my first post in this thread exactly how I feel, and I certainly do not have a problem with any soap making or designing. I am curious though how you could think I have something against regular M&P just because I said I'd be all for people making their own. One does not necessitate the other or vise versa.   Perhaps you should reread the thread and see all that I wrote.


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## Lindy

Dorymae said:


> The thing is there are M&P people out there that DO make their own base. *If they do I'm all for that*, it takes more time and they can make less mistakes because the soap can not be remelted as many times as the store bought stuff. Usually a quick look at the ingredients list will clue you in, although some store bought stuff is getting pretty good now so it will be harder to tell in a basic recipe.


 
 Sorry I misunderstood your post.  The highlighted area is where I got the idea that you had a problem with store-bought MP


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## LBussy

So here's the crazy shaver dude's opinion:

I prefer qualities in shaving that I have not seen in M&P soaps.  One of them being the ~10pH that begins to soften the beard.  Sure there's a lot of people making M&P shaving soap too, some of them do it in commerce and some are on this forum.  I don't favor those soaps because so far they have been indistinguishable from commercial "shaving cream" with the exception of the scents and additives.  There are a bunch of guys (and gals) out there who use syndet shaving cream and are happy with it.  When I put a straight razor up to my face however I want things that I am unable to get from M&P.

I find them interesting; the things you can do with M&P are astounding, and maybe the new bases make these differences a moot point (but I've not seen it yet).  I guess both have their place.  To the OP: There will be people however who know what they want and will gravitate to the tables who sell what it is they want to buy.  Some will buy what's prettiest, some will buy what smells nicest, some will buy what they think is better for their skin.   Some people won't know what they want anyway and it doesn't matter who has what.


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## CookbookChef

wow, I learned so much reading this thread. Great Job everyone, I learned allot, and this sure has given me allot to think about. I no longer think of melt and pour as soap, but as its own Artisan Creation. I am not sold on it totally, but I see it for something that SURE does have a wonderful place within the soap world. My eyes were opened to allot, and I have a new appreciation for ALL areas of Soap making and what each kind of soap and its technique adds to the business side of soap. Thank you ALL for that.


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## marilynmac

Aline said:


> Just look at this shop: www.etsy.com/shop/Kokolele.



Beautiful!  in a totally different way than CP soap.  There's art, and then there's a different kind of art.  Both can be appreciated.   Both can be terrible.


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## grumpy_owl

> you just melt it, scent and color and pour into a mold.



Ha! To people who say that, my answer would be, "Nah. Most of what I do is wait." MP folks will know what I mean. For the record, I make both MP and CP for the different flexibilities each offers, and find the apples vs. oranges argument a dead end. Can't we all just get along and make the world a more fabulous-smelling place, full of soft skin and clean people?


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## CookbookChef

marilynmac said:


> Beautiful!  in a totally different way than CP soap.  There's art, and then there's a different kind of art.  Both can be appreciated.   Both can be terrible.



Ok, that IS ART...I went to the link and saw some very beautiful soap indeed. Question, No, I am NOT trying to copy that work. But, saying that, is their someplace on the internet that can TEACH a person HOW to do works of art like that? Wow indeed my Soapy Friends!! I am sure that person took years of hard work to make that ART, so, please direct me where I can BEGIN to learn the HOW in making such art happen. I am sure she or he had a starting place, does anybody here know where I can learn to do such art? thanks


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## Conman

Admittedly I have not made soap myself yet but I know and have seen the processes involved.

I look at this and I see 2 worlds Art and Buisness so first you need to ask are you selling art or luxury soap? 

From a buisness perspective) Remember that price is about value in the eyes consumer not the maker or his competition. The price of soap is not to be defined by the process but by the demand of the customer. If in the eyes of the consumer a M&P soap is the Sam as a CP soap then by all means their prices should be the same and other factors will decide price changes and sales. The burden is on the maker to explain why their process is better and I tried harder is not a valid answer. 

I will even go as far to say the price of CP soap should be less than M&P soap. CP soap has better margins and they can sell for $4.25 a bar a customer  would be willing to pay $5.00  where as a M&P guy may not be able to do that and guess what the CP guy makes more money. 

From an art perspective as I said before you have to be able to communicate why your process is better and I worked harder is not the right answer. The amount of work put into it is not a determiner of value if the finished product is not any better as a result. Again the value of the piece boils down to what the customer will pay for it.


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## LBussy

Conman said:


> From a buisness perspective) Remember that price is about value in the eyes consumer not the maker or his competition.   The price of soap is not to be defined by the process but by the demand of the customer.


Truth.



> I will even go as far to say the price of CP soap should be less than M&P soap. CP soap has better margins


Strawman fallacy.

Just because the ingredients may be less expensive does not mean the difference is not made up in operating costs (labor, storage, money left on he shelves "curing.")



> From an art perspective as I said before you have to be able to communicate why your process is better and I worked harder is not the right answer. The amount of work put into it is not a determiner of value if the finished product is not any better as a result. Again the value of the piece boils down to what the customer will pay for it.


Truth again ... pretty good for a person with that screen handle.


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## Conman

LBussy said:


> Truth.
> 
> 
> Strawman fallacy.
> 
> Just because the ingredients may be less expensive does not mean the difference is not made up in operating costs (labor, storage, money left on he shelves "curing.")
> 
> 
> Truth again ... pretty good for a person with that screen handle.



Lol I admit i don't know anything about the cost of each process I was just told that CP had better margins thought that included everything


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## LBussy

Conman said:


> Lol I admit i don't know anything about the cost of each process I was just told that CP had better margins thought that included everything


I think too many people fail to "pay themselves" and that's part of a business model.


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## dillsandwitch

I have tried both M&P and CP. Personally I prefer the CP over the M&P. The reason being behind this this is that I am about as creative as a rock. 

For me the M&P was just melt, add colour/fragrance and into mould because when I look at it all I see is a blob of white or clear soap. No vision at all.

Now with the CP I can add my colours and fragrance and do the swirls and I am happy with what I have made. Maybe it has something to do with the I made all this from scratch thing. That feeling of accomplishment. I just don’t feel that with M&P.

Don’t get me wrong I will happily admire and or purchase a M&P soap if it takes my fancy but as the soaper I have my preference as I'm sure each and every one out there does.


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## CookbookChef

dillsandwitch said:


> I have tried both M&P and CP. Personally I prefer the CP over the M&P. The reason being behind this this is that I am about as creative as a rock.
> 
> For me the M&P was just melt, add colour/fragrance and into mould because when I look at it all I see is a blob of white or clear soap. No vision at all.
> 
> Now with the CP I can add my colours and fragrance and do the swirls and I am happy with what I have made. Maybe it has something to do with the I made all this from scratch thing. That feeling of accomplishment. I just don’t feel that with M&P.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong I will happily admire and or purchase a M&P soap if it takes my fancy but as the soaper I have my preference as I'm sure each and every one out there does.



I feel just like this....exactly. Made from Scratch FEELS old fashioned. For me at least. It FEELS as if I have really done something to be proud of. Melt and Pour TO ME, feels like I BOUGHT the soap, and changed it some. It still is soap, just like CP is soap, but at the end of the day I get a Good Feeling of accomplishment when I make a batch of CP soap, be it good looking, or be it simple as an oatmeal bar. I made it, and thats where to me I feel some satisfaction. Just like, I grow my own nails. I get satisfaction by having long nails that I grew myself over time. I invested Time, not money. I say that cause my Friend tells everyone who asks her "Oh wow, are your nails your own? they look so beautiful?" And she will give a positive "YES" she believes that she PAID for the nails at a salon, so yes,, those are HER nails. I grow my nails, she pays for them. They are BOTH our own nails. I guess its all perspective. I have seen some Beautiful Decorated fake nails on my friend. Sometimes her nails look more fancy than my home grown nails. But at the end of the day, I FEEL a satisfaction knowing that I grew my own nails. So, same with Cold Process Soap. I made it, at the end of the day, I made it myself. 
Would I buy or use other soap....YES


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## bbrown

Do what makes you happy.  They both are excellent and both have pros and cons.  There is a market for everything.


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## Susie

MP gives options that CP does not.  

CP gives options that MP does not. 

Do what makes you happy and be proud of what you created.


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## seven

amen bbrown and Susie


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## marilynmac

MP is not "making soap";  it is "making ART with soap".    
CP / HP is "making soap", and if you want to do art, you can do art with it too.

2 different things; both great creative endeavors; both can end up with a product other people want to buy that you can call "soap".


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## LBussy

Yeah ... 'cuz the soap I make is not artistic. :grin:


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## Susie

No, the soap I make is not art.  Truly!  No swirls or fancy stuff for me.


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## jules92207

As my hubby says I just make a mess. Good thing it's soap to clean up after me.


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## snappyllama

I actually think cold process is easier than melt and pour. 

With M&P, I can never get it as perfect looking as I think it should be... there's always a bubble or a layer that isn't just right or something. It drives me batty. I feel like CP is less frantic (so long as my FO is behaving and I'm not over blending like a whirling dervish after Starbucks). The pace of it suits me.  

It's like cooking... I can make some good tasting grub (if I do say so), but I'll never have the patience to 'plate' it. Buffet style at my house!


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## SpringLily16

I make both types of soaps....you can do with one that you cannot do with the other. You can create beautiful soaps with each. I love that we have the options!


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## seven

i'm with snappy on this. i think cp/hp is easier than mp. i started with mp, but changed to cp and never looked back. i still do mp sometimes, but not in the level that some artisan soapers do. i've seen some very beautiful mp soaps. i don't think it's cheating. they are different beasts.


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## FBody355

I always think it's so sad that people think it's a "dog eat dog world". I've been to an event with another soaper & omg, I would never think of saying that! We even plan to do a couple more events that we are both at. Everyone's soap is different. 
To me, M&P is way too thin of a consitancy for me to work with, it's very aggrivating! I can easily control my CP soap. I very rarely dabble in the M&P though. Only once in a while to make embeds.


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## Logansama

I work my butt off when I do MP! LOL! I much prefer making CP. And I do charge the same because I buy quality MP base so the cost is similar. 
And I'll share this nugget: my daughter is a private chef and she works for clients like Johnny Depp and Tim Burton. She uses cake mixes and dresses them up when she's either short on time or storage space.


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## Mandarin

I do CP, HP and MP soap. There are no snobs like CP snobs. Honestly, I mean it... So, you made your soap. Big deal! You can delve further into anything. Did you produce your own lye? Did you render your own tallow? Did you milk your own goat? Did you create every single oil by hand including the fragrances that you added to your wonderful CP soap? If not, can we truly call it from "scratch"?  I think not.... Yes, CP snobs annoy the heck out of me because for some reason only known to God, they think they have cornered the market on "homemade". I have been on many message boards and it is always the same old story. And, believe me, I make CP soap, so I know the process. I just don't understand the process of acting so pompous about CP soap.   End of my rant...


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## LBussy

... because making bread is combining ingredients and influencing the process.  Bake and serve is just that.  There is definitely a difference.  

One is not better than the other, but there are people that are more tolerant than others.  Snobbery may be in your own mind, or in your own actions.


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## Mandarin

> ... because making bread is combining ingredients and influencing the process. Bake and serve is just that. There is definitely a difference.


Combining ingredients that have been already made for you? If you put a cup of Gold Medal flour into your baking bowl, is this the same as if you produced your own flour at a mill? My grandmother said there is a huge difference, yet every baker today "thinks" their bread is homemade.... Of course there is a difference between CP and MP soap. But the difference does not mean that one is worth more than the other. You put in your ready-made lye and you add your manufactured oils and you stir it in a pot. Your bake and serve comment also has proven my point completely and has confirmed the fact that there are CP snobs on message boards.


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## bbrown

Mandarin said:


> I do CP, HP and MP soap. There are no snobs like CP snobs. Honestly, I mean it... So, you made your soap. Big deal! You can delve further into anything. Did you produce your own lye? Did you render your own tallow? Did you milk your own goat? Did you create every single oil by hand including the fragrances that you added to your wonderful CP soap? If not, can we truly call it from "scratch"?  I think not.... Yes, CP snobs annoy the heck out of me because for some reason only known to God, they think they have cornered the market on "homemade". I have been on many message boards and it is always the same old story. And, believe me, I make CP soap, so I know the process. I just don't understand the process of acting so pompous about CP soap.   End of my rant...




So perfectly said.


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## mx5inpenn

Mandarin said:


> Combining ingredients that have been already made for you? If you put a cup of Gold Medal flour into your baking bowl, is this the same as if you produced your own flour at a mill? My grandmother said there is a huge difference, yet every baker today "thinks" their bread is homemade.... Of course there is a difference between CP and MP soap. But the difference does not mean that one is worth more than the other. You put in your ready-made lye and you add your manufactured oils and you stir it in a pot. Your bake and serve comment also has proven my point completely and has confirmed the fact that there are CP snobs on message boards.



I'm a baker by trade.  I don't go to a mill, but I do grind my own grains for some of my breads.  I do it because it's a whole lot cheaper than buying it already ground.  And I gotta say, I bake all of them from scratch, whether it's *my* flour or one I bought. 

Different processes just bring about different results.  Taking ingredients and combining them to make something different than what they were is making something.


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## Lindy

We seem to be getting a little heated here.  This was a tolerant conversation until a few posts ago.  Let's go back to tolerance.

Thank you


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

While keeping the tolarance in mind, I have to say that the points made by Mandarin are a little off - 

Soap is made by combining oils and lye. That is how soap is made. 

Soap is not made by straining water through ashes - that is how lye is made. 

Soap is not made by squeezing olives - that is how olive oil is made.

So if I combine oils and lye, I have made soap myself. If I don't do that, then I have not made soap myself.

I do not think that CP/HP is better than M&P at all - I have always said that what people do with M&P amazes me and impresses me. It is not, however, making soap - the oils and lye have already been combined by someone else - the soap was made by someone else. Unless you make your own base, of course.

eta I find the title of this thread intentionally provocative and would of course get people's backs up - I'm very pleased how respectful most people have been, considering.


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## LBussy

I think folks have been very supportive of people who choose to make M&P (and vice versa) and I've not seen a post that did not reflect that ... until someone called people snobs.


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## Susie

I think comparing bake and serve bread to MP soaps is doing MP soaps quite a disservice.  There is quite a bit more process to MP than bake and serve bread.  Comparing it to cake mix from a box is more appropriate.  All the same ingredients, they are just pre-measured and mixed.(How is that cheating? Still has to have liquids added, and stirred and baked....)  

MP is still handmade.  They just start at a different point of the process.  I would use MP if I were into making fancy stuff, now that I know they have versions without SLS and other detergents.  And the ONLY reason I started making soap was so that I could control every ingredient to get rid of eczema.  I did not know MP existed at that stage.

There may be CP snobs that are out there.  They are not here,(or they are staying very quiet, which is wise).  I know it is easy to get defensive, but these are not the people you are angry at, please remember that.


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## LBussy

Susie said:


> I think comparing bake and serve bread to MP soaps is doing MP soaps quite a disservice.  There is quite a bit more process to MP than bake and serve bread.  Comparing it to cake mix from a box is more appropriate.  All the same ingredients, they are just pre-measured and mixed.(How is that cheating? Still has to have liquids added, and stirred and baked....)


I was continuing with the poster's analogy ... either way I like bread ... and cakes.  Cake mix works ... and someone posted something about a chef that uses a cake mix and dresses it up.  That's a perfect analogy.  You can either heat and pour a bar (simple) or make something really wonderful. 

I think we all agree they are different, and having different tools to use is what makes craftsmanship so interesting, rewarding, and effective.  

All that being said, being called a snob because one points out that there is a difference between the two is pretty confrontational.  Dogs are not cats, does that make me a cat snob?  (There, try poke holes in that analogy!   )


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## bbrown

LBussy said:


> I was continuing with the poster's analogy ... either way I like bread ... and cakes.  Cake mix works ... and someone posted something about a chef that uses a cake mix and dresses it up.  That's a perfect analogy. * You can either heat and pour a bar (simple) or make something really wonderful.*
> 
> I think we all agree they are different, and having different tools to use is what makes craftsmanship so interesting, rewarding, and effective.
> 
> All that being said, being called a snob because one points out that there is a difference between the two is pretty confrontational.  Dogs are not cats, does that make me a cat snob?  (There, try poke holes in that analogy!   )



See, I think the above bolded text is the kind of thing can sow a bit of discord among soapers because it does carry just a *smidge* of snark - or snobbery.  I can see it.  Or do I have it wrong?  Just because you are doing MP does not mean that you are not making something "really wonderful."  See what I mean?  ;-)


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## hmlove1218

bbrown said:


> See, I think the above bolded text is the kind of thing can sow a bit of discord among soapers because it does carry just a *smidge* of snark - or snobbery.  I can see it.  Or do I have it wrong?  Just because you are doing MP does not mean that you are not making something "really wonderful."  See what I mean?  ;-)



I took that to mean a soap that wasn't complex design wise. Like a simple CP might only be one color, uncolored, or unfragranced. A simple MP would be similar. Not a complex bar, just melt down the base, add in one color and fragrance if desired and pour. I don't think there was any snark or snobbery about it. Some soaps are simple, some soaps arent. It doesn't matter whether it's MP, HP, or CP. 

I myself can only make what I would classify as simple MP. I've tried to design it not to be, but it always seems to melt together. CP, on the other had, I can make much more complex much more easily.


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## bbrown

hmlove1218 said:


> I took that to mean a soap that wasn't complex design wise. Like a simple CP might only be one color, uncolored, or unfragranced. A simple MP would be similar. Not a complex bar, just melt down the base, add in one color and fragrance if desired and pour. I don't think there was any snark or snobbery about it. Some soaps are simple, some soaps arent. It doesn't matter whether it's MP, HP, or CP.
> 
> I myself can only make what I would classify as simple MP. I've tried to design it not to be, but it always seems to melt together. CP, on the other had, I can make much more complex much more easily.



Thanks!  And you could be right - I hope so!


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## LBussy

Yes, that's exactly correct.

I often find it is easier to get along if you read a post with the assumption that the poster did not intend for it to be snarky - but rather was trying to convey a thought/opinion.

There is no doubt in my mind that some of the most beautiful pieces of art I have seen in the soap world have their base all or in part in M&P soap.  If however all you (anyone) are doing is making a rectangular bar of soap by heating and pouring it; you have no more _created_ anything than you have baked something by slicing off a piece of bread from a loaf.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I don't think anyone can argue that by simply melting and pouring a base, the soaper has done anything themselves to create something wonderful. The base itself has all the wonder already there. You might as well just slice a chunk off from the base right out of the pack and then claim excellence. That's not being snobbish - we are going from the analogy of using a cake mix to that of simply putting a delivered pizza on a plate and saying 'I made pizza'. 

But when people take that base and do really original and interesting  things with it, taking it beyond what it was and creating a product - that is a thing of wonder.


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## snappyllama

To me the wording folks tend to get hung-up on is "handmade" when the difference really is "scratch". I make CP from scratch (implying the recipe is put together by me). I hand-make the designs in it when I pour. I hand-make the designs in M&P too. Both are handmade.

Baking analogy continuation time: I hand-make a gingerbread house. If I made the gingerbread from flour and such, it's from scratch. If I bought the gingerbread and artfully modify and assemble it, it's still hand-made - just not from scratch. One way of doing it doesn't make me a better/lesser gingerbread-house-maker. I just don't beat myself up about wobbly gingerbread houses when I make it from scratch and prefer how my scratch recipes work for me.  

No need to become riled up about either process. Do what you like. Let other folks do what they like. 

Dorky Video Time:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_26FOHoaC78[/ame]


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## bbrown

snappyllama said:


> To me the wording folks tend to get hung-up on is "handmade" when the difference really is "scratch". I make CP from scratch (implying the recipe is put together by me). I hand-make the designs in it when I pour. I hand-make the designs in M&P too. Both are handmade.
> 
> Baking analogy continuation time: I hand-make a gingerbread house. If I made the gingerbread from flour and such, it's from scratch. If I bought the gingerbread and artfully modify and assemble it, it's still hand-made - just not from scratch. One way of doing it doesn't make me a better/lesser gingerbread-house-maker. I just don't beat myself up about wobbly gingerbread houses when I make it from scratch and prefer how my scratch recipes work for me.
> 
> No need to become riled up about either process. Do what you like. Let other folks do what they like.
> 
> Dorky Video Time:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_26FOHoaC78




I just want you to know that I laughed out loud at your video.  So awesome!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I agree, snappy. 

But if you take pre-made gingerbread or make your own, you still have to make it in to the house shape - you made the house itself, whether or not you made the gingerbread. A pile of gingerbread is not a gingerbread house until you shape it that way. 

If you buy a pre-made gingerbread house and decorate it, you didn't make the gingerbread house. 

The m&p bases ARE soap. You could use them as they are with nothing added. The soap itself is already there. 

I think that is maybe the wording issue - soap is not beautiful bars with wonderful scents. Soap is a salt of fatty acids - if you are buying and starting with a salt of fatty acids then you are not making soap. The soap is already made. 

Again, I'm not saying m&p is a second class citizen, but it is also not a process where you make soap, not by any means


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## LBussy

It's funny how often I've thought of this thread ... I greatly dislike not being able to effectively convey my intent.

I thought I would share another analogy:  If Leonardo da Vinci intended to make art today he would go buy paints and canvas at the store.  The end goal is the art.  Nobody would think him less an artist if his paints came in tubes marked ""M Grahm" or "Gamblin."  If his end goal was the _paint_ he would continue now as he had to do then, grinding pigments (or having his apprentices do that) and mixing in linseed oil.

I intend to make soap (paint) and that is my end goal.  I cannot take someone else's soap and call it my own no matter how many times I put it in the microwave.  If I intended to make a piece of art out of soap, starting with the soap is completely reasonable.  Therefore I think the people who make pieces of art out of soap CREATE just as artists do, whether it's M&P or they craft the base themselves.  If rather the craftsperson intends to make a specific type of soap, they must necessarily start with the raw ingredients.

A person may certainly choose to make the bases and then the artwork, from raw materials.  I don't think there's anyone here that would disagree that this would entail more or at least different work.  Likewise I don't think there's anyone that thinks if a soap artist uses a M&P base that they are cheating.

Put another way:  I think Jesus would use the Internet if he were alive today.  His WORDS were what had value.


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## grumpy_owl

I think we're getting hung up on analogies, which are by nature inaccurate. There is no true analogy for MP vs. CP. As many have posted earlier, as long as the soaper or brand name on the label is up-front about the process that went into making the bar, the customer can decide for him or herself whether it's worth buying and using. Both processes result in very different forms of soap art, in the end. There are things we can't do with CP that we can with MP, and the other way around. (Side note: I actually forgot how to MP, my first love, and tried swirling a pink-and-white loaf, ending up with lame layers. Don't do what I did, kids! Stay in school!)
The trouble with the quote is that it can be read as "you can either heat and pour (pffft, MP) OR make something really wonderful (CP rules and is always wonderful by default)." I don't think that's what LBussy meant to say, by any means. I believe she left off the "either way." Let's all go back to our corners and make some soap.


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## LBussy

I don't really have any skin in the game either way.  People are free to incorporate unicorn tears or not in their creations.  What's important is that I have it on very good authority that LBussy is a "he" not a "she."


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## grumpy_owl

Oops, sorry, my good sir. <runs off to find a supplier for unicorn tears...>


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## LBussy

Statistically, it was a good guess. :razz:


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## dixiedragon

I just can't support using unicorn tears. Factory unicorn farming is animal cruelty. 

One of my favorite parts of CP is the surprise factor. I'm never 100% sure how the oils, colors, heat, fragrance, etc are going to react. I LOVE slicing my log and seeing what happened!

Currently I have a GORGEOUS purple soap that sadly, stains wash clothes. I need to chop it up and make confettie soap with it, but it's SO PRETTY. *sigh* 

I have once or twice seen people selling MP that they clearly just melted, added color and fragrance to and dumped in a mold from Hobby Lobby. I will admit that irks me. But I would never go harrass them about it. I'll admit, I do trash talk them a bit to whoever I'm at the craft fair with. I also trash talk the people who make CP with 100% soybean oil and charge $4 a bar for it. And I also trash talk the lotion from B&BW.


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## bbrown

Alrighty then.


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## Dorymae

To me it is simple. CP or HP you are making homemade soap. M&P you are hand designing soap. They are different animals and one is no worse than the other.


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## Khanjari

I am an MP soaper..... i don't mind of what opinion one holds as long as I am giving my 100% in whatever I am doing. .....

But tell me one thing, the people who say that I make and sell my own candles..... what do they do? Same thing.... melt a block of wax, add color, fragrance and wick and put it in the mold..... you are still not making your own wax!!!!!!! 

Is it not the same as MP?.And they are not looked down upon like the MP soap crafters!!!!!!! And like I said again,  I don't care what anyone thinks as long as I am giving my 100%. If I find out that a fellow soaper at a craft fair is asking me questions about my soap, I take pride and tell them that they are MP. 

Please explain! !!!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

It is different - you made that clear in the description of what they do to make them: 

A candle is wax (or the like) with a wick. Colour and scent are optional. But you can't just melt wax, set it in a form and call it a candle - you have to add the wick. With M&P soap, you start off with soap - you can melt it and mould it up and add nothing new in to it at all and at the end you will have soap. That is the difference between the two.

If you buy an M&P base, your soap is not hand made soap (by you, at any rate). To reiterate, this is not looking down on M&P soapers, it is just a plain fact. 

Another example - if I make a sandwich, I don't need to make the bread - a sandwich is made WITH bread, but just bread on it's own is not a sandwich. Different things need to be combined to make a sandwich, but I don't have to make each of those things myself in order to make the sandwich. Now, if I take a ham sandwich and add in some mayonnaise, I have not made a sandwich - I had a sandwich to start with. I might have made it better (unless you don't like mayo) but I can't say that I made the sandwich.


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## LBussy

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water ...


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## Dorymae

Khanjari said:


> I am an MP soaper..... i don't mind of what opinion one holds as long as I am giving my 100% in whatever I am doing. .....
> 
> But tell me one thing, the people who say that I make and sell my own candles..... what do they do? Same thing.... melt a block of wax, add color, fragrance and wick and put it in the mold..... you are still not making your own wax!!!!!!!
> 
> Is it not the same as MP?.And they are not looked down upon like the MP soap crafters!!!!!!! And like I said again,  I don't care what anyone thinks as long as I am giving my 100%. If I find out that a fellow soaper at a craft fair is asking me questions about my soap, I take pride and tell them that they are MP.
> 
> Please explain! !!!




M&P base is already soap. Wax is not yet a candle. You can cut a piece of M&P base and go wash with it. You can not cut a piece of wax and light it ( without it becoming a mess and possibly lighting your house on fire at the same time)

I think the designs made  with M&P are beautiful and I dabble in it myself but it is not making soap, it is designing soap.


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## Sheila Pullar

I also make MP soap I just love the designing of it, you can be so much more creative with it x


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## pamielynn

Oh, if I could just link you to a "soaper" here in town... she makes MP soap with a suspension base, plops some "organic coconut oil" into it and goes on and on about her handmade soap being "great for your skin and great for getting rid of those nasty germs like ringworm, staph, and MRSA." That's a direct quote. 
To my mind, she hasn't even MADE soap, and nevermind the BS claims. 

Yes, I find this frustrating. I'm sorry if that's not a popular point of view.  

I've seen some amazing MP designs over the years - amazing! And I've noticed that most soap "designers" will call themselves just that - none of this "my soap is the best thing since sliced bread" - they accept the fact that they are not making soap from scratch and it will never be as good for skin as handmade - they enjoy knocking our socks off with their designs. But, I can't get over the ones who just melt a block of soap into another block of soap and call it good.


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## bbrown

I have used both and it just depends on the recipe as to what is better for skin.  For instance, I have used a MP for quite some time that actually made my skin feel better than some of the scratch made soaps.  I still use a CP soap for my face but I much prefer for MP for my body.

It depends on the person.  And if someone is selling something, and people are buying it with no complaints, we should all just go on about our business and do what makes us happy.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

bbrown said:


> ......................And if someone is selling something, and people are buying it with no complaints, we should all just go on about our business and do what makes us happy.



Unless those people are buying something that isn't what they think it is.  If the seller of M&P is wrongly calling it hand-made soap, the customer THINKS they are getting hand made soap and won't complain.  That is not something that should be left as it is and we all go about our business all happy.  Not by a long way.

Call it "created from a soap base" and see if the same customers don't complain and stay as repeat customers.  If they suddenly find out that someone has been passing off bought soap as hand made they might well start to complain and will do so loudly by taking their custom to someone who is willing to be truthful with them.

If people know it is M&P and are still happy, super.  But calling it "hand made" and selling it as such is misrepresenting the product.  That is not fair to the customers


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## pamielynn

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Unless those people are buying something that isn't what they think it is.  If the seller of M&P is wrongly calling it hand-made soap, the customer THINKS they are getting hand made soap and won't complain.  That is not something that should be left as it is and we all go about our business all happy.  Not by a long way.
> 
> Call it "created from a soap base" and see if the same customers don't complain and stay as repeat customers.  If they suddenly find out that someone has been passing off bought soap as hand made they might well start to complain and will do so loudly by taking their custom to someone who is willing to be truthful with them.
> 
> If people know it is M&P and are still happy, super.  But calling it "hand made" and selling it as such is misrepresenting the product.  That is not fair to the customers



Well put. About sums up this whole debate.


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## bbrown

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Unless those people are buying something that isn't what they think it is.  If the seller of M&P is wrongly calling it hand-made soap, the customer THINKS they are getting hand made soap and won't complain.  That is not something that should be left as it is and we all go about our business all happy.  Not by a long way.
> 
> Call it "created from a soap base" and see if the same customers don't complain and stay as repeat customers.  If they suddenly find out that someone has been passing off bought soap as hand made they might well start to complain and will do so loudly by taking their custom to someone who is willing to be truthful with them.
> *
> If people know it is M&P and are still happy, super.  But calling it "hand made" and selling it as such is misrepresenting the product.  That is not fair to the customers*



Agree.   I should have been more clear.  My remark was more or less about the MP vs. CP debate in general.  Of course I do not condone lying about what you are making.  If someone is really doing that, then that's not good, whether it's MP or CP.

ETA:  I do not have a problem with MP being called handmade.  I know a lot of people disagree.   I do have a problem with people making MP soaps and claiming that it is a cure-all, unless the person is a dr. or scientist who has some inside knowledge.


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## MotheredByNature

I am new to soap making so i chose to start with m&p. i have found a supplier that uses all natural, vegan ingredients. no detergents, no SLS or SLES. i know this is important to many people and this is why i searched and searched to find a base that is not mass produced by popular soap making supply companies. i have also purchased many different ingredients to add to them that are also natural and good for the skin. if the ingredient i add is green, then the soap is going to be green. i dont like to add any extra, unnecessary ingredients to my soap. ive found that it is actually MORE expensive for me to purchase such a high quality base and add-ins, but because i am new to this and have a very small child in the house, i dont feel comfortable yet playing with cp.
i've wondered if hardcore soapers looked down on using m&p as well. im so very happy to see that at least the wonderful people who have commented here have not been so mean as i thought they might be. i know it takes a lot of work and practice to make cp and i really envy it! i hope one day i can start cp! i have much respect for everyone in this industry. its not easy, its a lot of work no matter what kind of soap you use!


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## CookbookChef

For me, I have a new fond respect for ALL soapers of ANY kind. Saying that, I just will never get past the feeling that melt and pour is NOT homemade but Handmade.
I believe Melt and Pour is Handmade!

Just like if somebody makes a box cake at the house I still think they should call that HANDMADE as well, not homemade. To me, Grandma made HOMEMADE From Scratch Cake...literally, she even had a hand mill and would mill her own wheat. Now that to me is homemade for sure, even more so if she grew the wheat, but no, didn’t do that. Yet, to me, when someone buys the ingredients at the store and makes a homemade cake from scratch, adding flour, eggs, butter and more to CREATE a cake, that to me is Homemade. 

Grandma Created a Cake from Scratch!

Where, the person who buys a cake MIX, well, to me that is the same as somebody buying melt and pour soap and ADDING Jojoba oil....or the person making a cake from a BOX and adding Soybean Oil, or Other liquid oil. It, at the end of the day, was an addition to a mix. So, to me, when a person uses a mix, no matter how deluxe or green the mix is to begin with, they are still making a HANDMADE Item. Not Homemade.

Melt and Pour is Handmade!

So, when I see a Melt and Pour Booth, and they claim it was HOMEMADE and not HANDMADE...to me I take issue with that.  Is their lots of value in Handmade? YES...and I don’t know about you, but I love a piece of cake, be it Grandma made it from scratch and it is homemade, or be it we go to the bakery at the local store, where they use a MIX to make the cake...I love the taste of cake clear and simple. Just like I love Soap, no matter who makes it, It all has its value. At times, I even like the soap at the store that is mass produced...lol. Saying that, When it comes down to a real bottom line, Handmade to me is when a mix is used, and Homemade to me is when you make it from Scratch. And yes, if a soaper is lying about their soap, no matter what kind of soap they make, it is wrong and deceptive. Lying Soapers can be the ones that can make our industry collapse...We have enough trouble competing against the manufactures, we don’t need Cindy over at her soaping booth Lying and selling snake oil, so to speak. Yes, I have commented on all of this in the past, in a different way, but at the end of the day, I have to say I DO respect all soap makers and the path that they use to make soap. I just want it represented correctly because at the end of the day, if I am selling my soap, I have to compete with not only the manufacturing soaps, but all the brothers and sisters I have in the soaping community making different kinds of soap. And if one of them tries to up sell at their booth, by misleading ppl, that draws customers away from my booth and possibly can give soapers in general a black eye when the TRUTH comes out about any lie that was put forth.
Lying and misleading customers to gain money, is wrong and just not fair to our industry.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Without knowing what you end the phrase 'm&p is handmade.....' with, I can't agree with it. 

If you were to say 'm&p is handmade soap' or homemade soap or anything that suggests that soap has been made, I cannot agree - the soap was bought.

It's not like a cake mix. A cake mix is not cake - you have to add things to it and do things to it to make a cake. On it's own, it is not a cake. 

M&p with nothing done to it or added to it IS soap. You don't have to do anything to an m&p base to have soap, as it is already soap. 

If using a cake analogy, m&p is buying a plain sponge and adding to it - the sponge on it's own is a cake. The cake itself was bought. 

Again, I think the things that people do with m&p are outstanding and I do not disrespect them in anyway.


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## grumpy_owl

> M&p with nothing done to it or added to it IS soap. You don't have to do anything to an m&p base to have soap, as it is already soap.



Sadly, it can be surprisingly difficult to be honest with the consumer. I make fancy MP and have had people tell me it's the only soap they can use, feels gentle on their skin, etc. I explain it is made from bought soap base with glitter, embeds, color and scent and I'm not responsible for the soap qua soap ingredients, just the overall look of the end product. But they're like, "Eh, whatever. Best soap I've ever used." Le sigh. Beauty, cleansing and cosmetic products are so very tied into customer perception.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Beyond a doubt  let's be honest, scent isn't even really needed, but I sure do love it


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## grumpy_owl

Scent..isn't...needed? :0 Spoken like a true guy. <shakes head sadly>


----------



## Lindy

grumpy_owl said:


> Scent..isn't...needed? :0 Spoken like a true guy. <shakes head sadly>


 
Okay that was just funny. :lolno:


----------



## fionasfrightsoap

I was kind of bummed out to see this thread while looking on here for some inspiration and motivation, after feeling bullied and put down by some CP soapers recently in real life but after reading the replies, I am really glad I read this! 

I use M&P bases. I carefully choose where they come from and what the ingredients are. I use natural colors and know the ingredients in my oils. I research  every ingredient going in, carefully measure and calculate 
fragrance/color/additive percentages for each batch and mix my own fragrance blends. Tested the formulas for a over a year before trying to sell them. Just as you buy flour, eggs and sugar and combine it to make a cake, I feel that buying a premixed base and reconfiguring it into your own soap bar is not cheating, or inferior. 

Pricing for my soaps is a standard equation - cost of base, add ins, labor and packaging times a set markup percent.  

Wording for my soap descriptions was very carefully thought out and I spend a lot of time trying to be as honest and open about my soaps as possible. 

At some point I want to get into CP but with young kids and a small house, I don't feel it's the best choice right for me right now. I do feel that I know what is in my bars as well as someone that made their soap using CP. I think that my products stand up just as well as CP soaps in terms of how "good" they are and how well they work. I don't think that the time and effort I put in is any less than what a CP soapmaker does. As many of you far more seasoned veterans have said, it's just a different form of soaping. I'm feeling pretty darn good about my soap right now! http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## LBussy

fionasfrightsoap said:


> I was kind of bummed out to see this thread while looking on here for some inspiration and motivation, after feeling bullied and put down by some CP soapers recently in real life but after reading the replies, I am really glad I read this!


It was touch and go there for a bit but I'm glad you stuck with it!



> At some point I want to get into CP but with young kids and a small house, I don't feel it's the best choice right for me right now.


Get some easy ingredients squirreled away and some weekend you will have the kitchen to yourself and you can give it a go.  I just can't see a CP soap being any more time consuming or space demanding than what you say you do.  Plus you already have molds! 

I am *not* artistic by any means, and I darned sure can't mix EO/FO's and get what I want (anyone have a Lime/Bergamot recipe they want to share?) so for me using M&P would be ... melting and pouring.  That's like making ice by starting with ice. :razz:

What folks like you do is definite artwork and I am jealous of your skills.


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## fionasfrightsoap

The decision to not try the CP just yet has more to do with the lye part. I think I want to wait till my youngest is a little older and less "active" and curious (lol) before I start trying out recipes. I should also clarify that I buy oils that are pre-made and combine them into the custom scents (inspired by horror movies!) I am starting to look into making my own oils though. I think I could do it! Thank you so much for the reply!!!


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## not_ally

I do both, and enjoy both.  These days mostly CP unless I want to make something quickly for gifts, etc, but they are both so worthwhile and - if you use a good MP base - both  head and shoulders over syndet bars, at least for me.  A couple of things, it is kind of strange to me that so many of you CP-only types say that you are not artistic enough to do MP, some of the most beautiful soaps I have ever seen are CP bars whose beauty comes from shape and texture rather than from fancy swirls. 

Also, it is scary that anyone selling soap would say no lye was used in their bars.  Someone who is stupid enough to say that should really not be allowed to sell anything publicly.


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## snappyllama

I look at M&P as a gateway drug since that's how I started. Then I had the scents and the molds and clicked on the CP videos and had to try that. Of course, CP is just a gateway drug to lotions and potions.  After all, you've got most of the oils and fragrances... why not get a few more ingredients and make your own aftershave, eye creams, body butters, liquid soap, lip balms and...

Evil enablers, all of you!


----------



## not_ally

I actually hate the title of this thread, I know some of you think it is on point, but it seems intentionally provocative and not constructive.  Would not comment, but it has come up a number of times in the "new threads" display and I always think the same thing.

Edited to say:  I don't want the mods to change it, there is enough censorship in the world. I just felt that it was titled either carelessly or deliberately to cause friction.


----------



## Lindy

snappyllama said:


> I look at M&P as a gateway drug since that's how I started. Then I had the scents and the molds and clicked on the CP videos and had to try that. Of course, CP is just a gateway drug to lotions and potions. After all, you've got most of the oils and fragrances... why not get a few more ingredients and make your own aftershave, eye creams, body butters, liquid soap, lip balms and...
> 
> Evil enablers, all of you!


 
*I know!  My house is so full of ingredients, moulds, cutters, bottles, jars, and on and on and on that I'm wondering when I'm going to need an apartment!  For me :lolno:*



not_ally said:


> I actually hate the title of this thread, I know some of you think it is on point, but it seems intentionally provocative and not constructive. Would not comment, but it has come up a number of times in the "new threads" display and I always think the same thing.
> 
> Edited to say: I don't want the mods to change it, there is enough censorship in the world. I just felt that it was titled either carelessly or deliberately to cause friction.


 
*When I first saw this thread I was terrified it would derail and was ready for the fight.  I am so impressed that it has mostly been a very pleasant discussion on the differences between the 2 soap types.*


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

fionasfrightsoap said:


> ...................I feel that buying a premixed base and reconfiguring it into your own soap bar is not cheating, or inferior..........


  I completely agree with this!  I want to say that first of all.  Of course, it CAN be inferior, but it can also be superior, depending on what is being compared to what - a great M&P soap can be way better than a bad CP soap and a bad M&P soap can be miles worse than a great CP soap.

BUT - 


fionasfrightsoap said:


> ..............Just as you buy flour, eggs and sugar and combine it to make a cake, I feel that buying a premixed base and reconfiguring it into your own soap bar is not cheating, or inferior................



I feel that this analogy is a bad one.  M&P is buying a ready made cake and adding to it - the base itself is a finished product, to say otherwise is to say that an unscented, uncoloured CP soap is not actually a soap but as we know soap is not defined by colour or scent.  An M&P base is soap and can be taken and used as soap, where as each ingredient in CP soap is not in itself soap - as an egg alone is not a cake, but needs the other ingredients to make a cake.


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## fionasfrightsoap

I do agree with your interpretation of that analogy, what I was thinking in my mind is that you're taking a base that is pre-made, like a stick of butter maybe -  but then melting it down and adding ingredients to make your own product. Maybe that's better?  I have to say I am really enjoying this forum! Learning a lot as I go


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## damitajo

I appreciate the opinions here.  Personally I am starting out with M & P because I am hesitant about the lye water mixing.  I live in an apartment and have a small child.  However the CP soaps are what I want to end up doing I just feel that M & P is a simple way to start off.


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## zolveria

*CP vs MP*

IMOP:
CP = more control of the internal product ( IE OILS ) and have time to kill 

MP = no control over internal products and  is for someone that has a limited amount of time and does not want to wait  3 weeks.

as far as for decorating ideas. 
I have seen some really Artistic CP soap Decoration
if you have the time to paint your silicone mold with your cp soap 
and then add the layer to it etc. they sky the limit.


MP you go straight to the artistic part of it  you cut on step out .
and I have seen some Nice Artistic Soaps decoration both with MP and CP
I love Science . So I love anything that can has chemistry involved.
Hence I do not like MP soap.


----------



## hozhed

damitajo said:


> I appreciate the opinions here. Personally I am starting out with M & P because I am hesitant about the lye water mixing. I live in an apartment and have a small child. However the CP soaps are what I want to end up doing I just feel that M & P is a simple way to start off.


 

I would not worry about making cp soap in your apartment. be careful,use the right containers and use all protective equipment. you can mix your lye outside. I do consider M&P soap like a cake mix, but so what?. Look whats in something like a biscuit mix in a box. sugar,flour,salt,Baking powder, etc........Now make it from " scratch".....get a bowl and put in, :"sugar,flour,salt,Baking powder, etc........ )........I bet I spend more time making a batch of M&P soap as I do CP. it depends on what you want to do I guess......either way, its not rocket surgery.....lol


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## KatATK

Honestly, I think it depends on how creative you want to get.

Cold  process does indeed require more research, but once you've got a recipe  down, thats it, you can use that same recipe for many of different  kinds of soap, with the only reasons to change it up would because  because you either wanted to try something new, or a scent you really  like seizes/rices your current recipe and thus you want to make it work  with a different one. However, once you got a recipe down, there doesn't  have to be any more work involved other then actually make the soaps. 

Melt  and Pour requires less research but tends to be more technical. Design  wise you can do a lot more to make it look exactly how you want. It can very easily take more time to do depending on what design you're going for.

For  example, I have a Bar of soap I can only get doing MP. "I Choose You"  is a white bottom, a red top, and a big black circle in the middle but  doesn't touch the edges. Basically it resembles a Pokeball because I  like to appease the nerds with cool soaps. While I'm sure I could do a  White bottom, Red top, and a Black center in CP, I couldn't be able to  suspend a black circle in the middle, let alone make one. I could do a  swirl, but for this soap I want less of a Chaos affect and more of a  precise design.

However my "See You Space Cowboy" Cowboy BeBop  Inspired Soap looks more like Space, and thus want a more Chaos affect,  and I'll strictly do that one as CP. Depending on where I cut I could  get just stars, or bits that look like galaxies or planets, sometimes  it's to be discovered as you use the bar. I will make MP embeds for this  bar that I stick on top to resemble the fact that their ship is flying  in space, but the MP Embeds take me less time for this project than  making the universe in the soap.

It honestly depends on what type of design you're looking to do. CP is more Chaotic and MP is more Precise.

Oh and Hot Process/HP is just fragrant Mashed Potatoes :0)


----------



## shunt2011

KatATK said:


> Honestly, I think it depends on how creative you want to get.
> 
> Cold process does indeed require more research, but once you've got a recipe down, thats it, you can use that same recipe for many of different kinds of soap, with the only reasons to change it up would because because you either wanted to try something new, or a scent you really like seizes/rices your current recipe and thus you want to make it work with a different one. However, once you got a recipe down, there doesn't have to be any more work involved other then actually make the soaps.
> 
> Melt and Pour requires less research but tends to be more technical. Design wise you can do a lot more to make it look exactly how you want. It can very easily take more time to do depending on what design you're going for.
> 
> For example, I have a Bar of soap I can only get doing MP. "I Choose You" is a white bottom, a red top, and a big black circle in the middle but doesn't touch the edges. Basically it resembles a Pokeball because I like to appease the nerds with cool soaps. While I'm sure I could do a White bottom, Red top, and a Black center in CP, I couldn't be able to suspend a black circle in the middle, let alone make one. I could do a swirl, but for this soap I want less of a Chaos affect and more of a precise design.
> 
> However my "See You Space Cowboy" Cowboy BeBop Inspired Soap looks more like Space, and thus want a more Chaos affect, and I'll strictly do that one as CP. Depending on where I cut I could get just stars, or bits that look like galaxies or planets, sometimes it's to be discovered as you use the bar. I will make MP embeds for this bar that I stick on top to resemble the fact that their ship is flying in space, but the MP Embeds take me less time for this project than making the universe in the soap.
> 
> It honestly depends on what type of design you're looking to do. CP is more Chaotic and MP is more Precise.
> 
> Oh and Hot Process/HP is just fragrant Mashed Potatoes :0)


 
Hello and welcome to the forum!  

You absolutely could make your "I Choose You" in CP.  Just make your circle in a pvc pipe or pringles can and then pour your bottom layer at a thicker track and lay the round soap on top then pour your top layer.  I've seen it done.  Haven't done it myself though.   

But you can certainly do more detailed things with MP that only a master artist could do with CP.  And there are some out there.  So envious.


----------



## KatATK

shunt2011 said:


> Hello and welcome to the forum!
> 
> You absolutely could make your "I Choose You" in CP.  Just make your circle in a pvc pipe or pringles can and then pour your bottom layer at a thicker track and lay the round soap on top then pour your top layer.  I've seen it done.  Haven't done it myself though.
> 
> But you can certainly do more detailed things with MP that only a master artist could do with CP.  And there are some out there.  So envious.



I'll have to look to see if I can find PVC in the right size. I'll probably also have to hope that the layers don't come apart because I created all the layers on different days. I'll also probably have to hope that if I do find PVC in the right size, that my soap doesn't change sizes to be able to fit the black piece, which could easily differ on the day that I make it on because weather in the north is a little less predictable. There is even chaos in the issues that I would have. No amount of being a master CP artist is going to be able to prevent most of the issues I've already encountered by trying.

Also Pringle's can has an aluminum metal coating on the inside that would react with the lye in very bad ways. I wouldn't suggest that to anyone doing CP.

Basically the point of my original post is that there are some things you can't do with CP and some things you can't do with MP. Both have their pros and cons and it's ok to do one, the other, or a combination of both.

MP Also technically costs more per bar to make. For me it is about $1.14 per bar, while CP costs more like 97c per bar. As an artist I do put an equal amount of work in most of my soaps so I got price them around the same, since my bars are $5 per bar I'm making plenty off of both.

In the end I feel as if it comes down to more or less what you want to do. You want to do only CP? Then do just that. Want to do only MP? So be it, have fun with it. Want to do HP? Cool, do it. Are you new and nervous about doing CP or HP? Dive right into it anyway, the only thing that will make you better is practice and doing MP doesn't help with practicing doing CP or HP.

Just have fun, be creative, and be happy with what you do. That is what most hobbies should be about.


----------



## JayJay

shunt2011 said:


> Hello and welcome to the forum!
> 
> You absolutely could make your "I Choose You" in CP.  Just make your circle in a pvc pipe or pringles can and then pour your bottom layer at a thicker track and lay the round soap on top then pour your top layer.  I've seen it done.  Haven't done it myself though.
> 
> But you can certainly do more detailed things with MP that only a master artist could do with CP.  And there are some out there.  So envious.



Slight detour from topic (please forgive me)

How does one get the soap out of the PVC pipe?

I have used a Pringles can once, but I had to rip it off of the soap in order to to get it out.


----------



## kchaystack

I've used a Pringles can many times.  I do line it with some parchment paper, but a little batter gets on the inside and I have never had problems


----------



## SoapStephanie

JayJay said:


> Slight detour from topic (please forgive me)
> 
> How does one get the soap out of the PVC pipe?
> 
> I have used a Pringles can once, but I had to rip it off of the soap in order to to get it out.



Just line it with freezer paper and you should be able to pop it out immediately! Push it out through the other end, don't pull.


----------



## shunt2011

I agree, just line with freezer paper or you can also line them with the silicone fondant mats from Michaels.  Pringle cans work like a charm when lined.  I've done that many times with no issues.


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## pamielynn

But also, do you want just a "pretty" soap or do you want a soap that makes your skin feel amazing? I don't work with MP for many reasons, the main one being that it feels as though it leaves a film on my skin.

People make soap for all kinds of reasons - you have to decide what you want before you know what medium you'll use to make it.


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## Lindy

I make both for different applications.  I prefer CP but want to learn the artisticness of MP


----------



## bbrown

I've never known MP to leave a film unless you use something from a craft store.  Bramble berry carries an awesome MP bases, as do a lot of companies.   I do both and find that MP is better for certain types of skin.   CP is fun but MP is just a little more so.


----------



## TwystedPryncess

There's definitely room for both. I think it really just depends on how much one is willing to educate themselves on the possibilities of both and then they are only limited by their creativity.

They can be mingled with one another or used alone, and what you can do really is just about limitless on either side in one fashion or another.

I love both. My very very first foray into soaping was with a few pounds and a kit from Hobby Lobby of melt and pours. I didn't like the end result or the soap product itself, I made a huge mess, some of that M&P base is still unused on my shelves and some of the soap bars are still unused, but I had a great time learning and it was enough to get me hooked. I knew the product was probably not a very good soap base, since I had read voraciously for months before even picking the stuff up, and I was right. But Impatience hit me one day and I didn't want to wait to order anything.

When I M&P now sometimes I still make a huge mess. I now have much better bases but I love doing both in different ways. It's sort of like crocheting and knitting I guess, or loving the twin girls, each is unique and wonderful in their own way, at least to me.

Although I will say the one twin girl is messier than me when SHE melt & pours, and she still only will pick colors and stir cold process soaps (and use them of course). 

I think what I love best about M&P is how micas shine in clear bases, and what I love best about CP is how it fells when you use it.


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## Dana89

Now that I think about it, the only time I have ever seen anyone complain about some selling MP is when they lie about it or are uneducated about it. Saying their soap is Lye-Free or pure glycerin soap.
Same goes for any product though, like lotion without a preservative and so on. People that are just complaining because it is MP or say it is not real soap just need to have faith in their own product.


----------



## Pixar

Honestly I think either way is fine. Some people like to do CP and some like M&P. Whichever works for you is fine. I do M&P and i love it. So dont worry anything you like is fine.


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## CookbookChef

Ha Ha, this has made me think...Now what if a soaper creates his or her own melt and pour from scratch?? Hey, then it is handmade, and so, would they, that person, advertise as melt and pour soap? I ask this because so many people have such strong opinions one way or the other. Some, and I do me some, say that melt and pour is like a box cake because it is not handmade. So, if a soaper makes his or her own handmade melt and pour and then has a booth next to a cold process vendor, I kind of wonder if they would both be on the same playing field. But I think that the Artisan would need to somehow specify that they make the soap, just like an Artisan who makes Cold Process. Otherwise how in the world would the customer even know? Huh, interesting. I guess we all can go round and round this topic and never ever really just settle on an end. Lol, it all kind of feels very political too. Democratic or Republican? Ha Ha...it is just politics, no matter how you look at it, and we are dealing with soap, at the end of the day we make soap.


----------



## Dorymae

I make my own, although I never remelt it. I call the soaps transparent homemade soap. I will admit they do not have the incredible artistry like the M&P we were discussing. They could but I don't have the patience for that so they are simple designs and molds.


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## dixiedragon

I don't think that your average buyer is going to "get" the difference between homemade M&P and CP soap, or even really care. As a customer, I would buy a bar of soap made from home-made M&P base, because to me that is "cooler" than a bar made from factory-made M&P base.


----------



## pamielynn

Can I ask why you'd want to make your own M&P? This is to anyone who does it. Your end customer wouldn't be melting it down when they get it home, right? I'm not really sure of the point unless you are selling the base to someone who is then going to make their "own" product.

This is NOT meant to be a snarky question at all. I really am curious, because it doesn't seem like an easy project.


----------



## not_ally

Pamielynn, I don't make my own mp, so take this w/a grain of salt, but when I make MP soaps  - from SFIC and usually for giftees - I assume they are going to just use the soaps as is, not remelt.  If I were to make my own mp it would probably be so I could control the ingredient mix better/completely and keep around slabs of it for when I wanted to use it like I do with my SFIC base.  Sorry if am mis-answering your question, though.  Stay dry out there, I hear it is pouring down ...


----------



## CookbookChef

Dorymae said:


> I make my own, although I never remelt it. I call the soaps transparent homemade soap. I will admit they do not have the incredible artistry like the M&P we were discussing. They could but I don't have the patience for that so they are simple designs and molds.



oh wow cool Doryme ;-)


----------



## CookbookChef

pamielynn said:


> Can I ask why you'd want to make your own M&P? This is to anyone who does it. Your end customer wouldn't be melting it down when they get it home, right? I'm not really sure of the point unless you are selling the base to someone who is then going to make their "own" product.
> 
> This is NOT meant to be a snarky question at all. I really am curious, because it doesn't seem like an easy project.



For Real here when I say this but if I were to ever use MP soap for creating Art Soap to sell, cause I know you can do some fancy things with it, I would first choose to buy from a seller who custom makes it at home or a personal shop. I just do not like store bought MP....my preference, and yes, I would choose an Artisan to make me a base to use. I love that idea


----------



## Dorymae

pamielynn said:


> Can I ask why you'd want to make your own M&P? This is to anyone who does it. Your end customer wouldn't be melting it down when they get it home, right? I'm not really sure of the point unless you are selling the base to someone who is then going to make their "own" product.
> 
> This is NOT meant to be a snarky question at all. I really am curious, because it doesn't seem like an easy project.



The reason is the same reason you make your own CP soap or liquid soap. Only when you make it yourself can you control the ingredients that go into it.

It really is not hard to do . . .well it is no harder than making CP or liquid soap. The process is a little different, but it really is not hard. 

Think of it this way - if you don't care what is in commercial soap you would just buy that. If you don't care what is in a M&P base then you just buy that. However if you want to be able to have a transparent soap that includes aloe, silk, and rice bran oil you will be hard pressed to find it in a base.


----------



## Dana89

I have been thinking of making it myself with all the soap scraps I have. There is no telling what color it will come out, but I cant make a decent rebatch soap, and I have tried over and over. It looks easier that rebatching on you tube, just throw all your scraps, Glycerin, alcohol and stearic acid in a pot. Some use a sugar/water solution as well. I need to watch few more and get a recipe but I have a lot of scraps I need to do something with and this seems better than making laundry detergent.


----------



## Dorymae

Dana89 said:


> I have been thinking of making it myself with all the soap scraps I have. There is no telling what color it will come out, but I cant make a decent rebatch soap, and I have tried over and over. It looks easier that rebatching on you tube, just throw all your scraps, Glycerin, alcohol and stearic acid in a pot. Some use a sugar/water solution as well. I need to watch few more and get a recipe but I have a lot of scraps I need to do something with and this seems better than making laundry detergent.



Wait! What?  I've never heard of making transparent soap or M&P from soap scraps. I wonder if it is easier than making it from scratch. Can you post a video of that?  I need to look into this!


----------



## Dana89

https://youtu.be/8AV7QRn-bCo

This is one of the vids I have seen, but there is a better one. I will need to look for it.


----------



## CookbookChef

Dorymae said:


> Wait! What?  I've never heard of making transparent soap or M&P from soap scraps. I wonder if it is easier than making it from scratch. Can you post a video of that?  I need to look into this!



No...I just watched the video that Dana posted. It is NOT making CLEAR soap....no, it is making a REBATCH soap....just using a method and the method is this: Re-batching Using Clear Transparent Soap Method

So, you are not making Transparent Soap, you are just using its METHOD to make a REBATCH soap.....if you watch the short video you will see what I mean.
But thanks Dana for posting that video, it sure has given me a NEW way to do Rebatch


----------



## cmzaha

pamielynn said:


> Can I ask why you'd want to make your own M&P? This is to anyone who does it. Your end customer wouldn't be melting it down when they get it home, right? I'm not really sure of the point unless you are selling the base to someone who is then going to make their "own" product.
> 
> This is NOT meant to be a snarky question at all. I really am curious, because it doesn't seem like an easy project.


I find it a lot of fun to make and I can control my ingredients. Also we wanted a special facial bar to add to our line of soaps, so I designed an avocado m&p which is re-meltable. For most of our m&p my daughter uses some of the  Stephenson bases from Catalina, which is quite nice. Although we do like mine better but it is not as clear. Problem is it is to expensive for me to supply her with the amount she uses, since she goes through almost a pallet of m&p a year. I may be able to make the base but I totally "suck" when it comes to make fancy m&p


----------



## Dana89

Cookbook Chef-





> So, you are not making Transparent Soap, you are just using its METHOD to make a REBATCH soap.....if you watch the short video you will see what I mean.
> But thanks Dana for posting that video, it sure has given me a NEW way to do Rebatch



YW, if you try this method would you let me know how it turns out?


----------



## Chrishaglerr

I feel like it all depends on how you make your melt and pour soaps. Anyone can just melt some, add color, then pour into a mold. The soaps that I make and sell actually contain the same amount, if not more different kinds of beneficial oils and butter than CP. I hear a lot of talk of how it's useless to add oils such as Rose Hip oil or Dragons blood resin to it because it'll just "wash off of the skin". The m&p soaps I produce actually help my customers get rid of their eczema and fight off infections such as staph and ring worm.

All in all, I think M&P is worth what you make of it. Actually, M&P AND cp is worth what you make of it. I just believe a lot of M&P diapers are afraid to break the rules and explore as cp soapers do. The whole "1 tablespoon of oils per pound of M&P because adding more will cut the lather GREATLY" isn't true at all. I add wayy more than that and my lather actually improves (keeping it natural as well).

Don't mean to offend anyone as I think everyone on here is awesome and I appreciate all of you  I just feel like soap making is what you make of it. Hope this helped some people.


----------



## not_ally

Ok, I have to ask, what is an "MP diaper"?  I thought it might be a spell-check thing, but for the life of me I can't figure it out


----------



## Chrishaglerr

not_ally said:


> Ok, I have to ask, what is an "MP diaper"?  I thought it might be a spell-check thing, but for the life of me I can't figure it out




M&P "soapers" lmao darn spell check! I hope no one is selling MP diapers


----------



## not_ally

Gotcha!  That was funny, though.  Spellcheck is a one of those blessing/curse things


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

They wash the babies as they poo! Very handy indeed.


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## LBussy

Okay I'll be the guy that says it.



Chrishaglerr said:


> The soaps that I make and sell actually contain the same amount, if not more different kinds of beneficial oils and butter than CP.


This is just wrong.  Can you make a M&P that's 100% cocoa butter?  You can with CP.



Chrishaglerr said:


> The m&p soaps I produce actually help my customers get rid of their eczema and fight off infections such as staph and ring worm.


This is past wrong, it's false advertising and most of the people here I know try to stay away from these claims.  When you make them you make your soap a drug - do you follow the regulations for drugs?  Has this been independently tested as a drug would be?



Chrishaglerr said:


> The whole "1 tablespoon of oils per pound of M&P because adding more will cut the lather GREATLY" isn't true at all. I add wayy more than that and my lather actually improves (keeping it natural as well).


There's no definition for "natural", and I'm sorry to say that adding oils to M&P soaps does diminish the lather.  Whether it's enough to matter is definitely up for debate but the same is true of CP.  Oil does not have the surface tension to hold bubbles; it will dampen the lather of any soap.  Soap is meant to solubilize oils, so as long as you have enough surfactant to dissolve and suspend the oils you're fine, but you are using up those finite properties.



Chrishaglerr said:


> Don't mean to offend anyone as I think everyone on here is awesome and I appreciate all of you  I just feel like soap making is what you make of it. Hope this helped some people.


I agree with all of this - but please, don't try to sell us a box of foo.  I respect all soapers, M&P, CP, HP, CPOP, IHOP, whatever.  I hold all soapers to the same standards though.  If what you say is untrue, you should expect to be called out on it - here especially.  If you don't realize what you say is untrue or potentially dangerous (in a litigious or health way) then you will get corrected.


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## jblaney

I was waiting for this.


----------



## not_ally

Chris, don't feel set upon, but probably many people have had misgivings when reading your posts, just not replied.  It is slightly alarming to read them, b/c the conventional wisdom you are contradicting is the result of thousands of hours of experience, thousands of batches, careful experimentation by extremely good and experienced soapers, and someone who has never made MP might read your posts and think it is OK to claim that it (or any other soap) can cure skin conditions/infections.  

I don't care so much about whether they have fails from adding too much oil/losing lather, etc., but I think most even minimally experienced soapers are pretty concerned when they see health claims.  It really is problematic for the hand-made soap craft as a whole, and is likely to elicit very strong responses.  See, eg, this thread:  

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=55054

ETA:  I just looked at your website, and I liked it! Great tone for your target audience.  Also, I think you do a pretty good job about not over-claiming re health effects, although I might be careful w/the word "known" w/r/t some of those additives.


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## Chrishaglerr

LBussy said:


> Okay I'll be the guy that says it.
> This is just wrong.  Can you make a M&P that's 100% cocoa butter?  You can with CP.
> 
> This is past wrong, it's false advertising and most of the people here I know try to stay away from these claims.  When you make them you make your soap a drug - do you follow the regulations for drugs?  Has this been independently tested as a drug would be?
> 
> There's no definition for "natural", and I'm sorry to say that adding oils to M&P soaps does diminish the lather.  Whether it's enough to matter is definitely up for debate but the same is true of CP.  Oil does not have the surface tension to hold bubbles; it will dampen the lather of any soap.  Soap is meant to solubilize oils, so as long as you have enough surfactant to dissolve and suspend the oils you're fine, but you are using up those finite properties.
> 
> 
> I agree with all of this - but please, don't try to sell us a box of foo.  I respect all soapers, M&P, CP, HP, CPOP, IHOP, whatever.  I hold all soapers to the same standards though.  If what you say is untrue, you should expect to be called out on it - here especially.  If you don't realize what you say is untrue or potentially dangerous (in a litigious or health way) then you will get corrected.




I didn't mean it as it WILL work to fight eczema or anything, I'm just saying it has been known to work for my customers. Should've been more clear on that one haha. I'm not trying to sell anyone anything, I was just simply adding what I've found out over the years of my own personal experience. But everyone has their own opinions and I respect that


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## Seawolfe

My husbands eczema cleared up when he was just using my plain old castiles and bastiles and whatever lard soap is ready to go (and when I stopped using commercial laundry detergent). Id be interested to see if your customers had the same happy results just using the plain M&P with no additives, just wondering...


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## lisamaliga

Chrishaglerr said:


> I feel like it all depends on how you make your melt and pour soaps. Anyone can just melt some, add color, then pour into a mold.
> 
> All in all, I think M&P is worth what you make of it. Actually, M&P AND cp is worth what you make of it. I just believe a lot of M&P diapers [soapers] are afraid to break the rules and explore as cp soapers do. The whole "1 tablespoon of oils per pound of M&P because adding more will cut the lather GREATLY" isn't true at all. I add wayy more than that and my lather actually improves (keeping it natural as well).



Unfortunately, there have been people crafting melt and pour soap using metal pans as a double boiler rather than stainless steel. It will cause wrinkles in the soap. Another case was someone actually using a plastic container over as a double boiler and wondering why it melted. There are other examples--both online and in 'real life' -- that are equally worthy of a Darwin Soap Award, but I won't go into it here. My opinion is that not just anyone can craft M&P soap.

With a high quality base you can add some extras, like fixed oils and butters, and not have them separate from the soap base or alter the lather-ability.

Of course I'm a huge fan of m&p soap and I usually refer to it as soap crafting rather than soap making as it's not made from scratch.


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## Lynusann

You know I've never really messed with M&P soaps short of making a few embeds here and there. The thought of it honestly just sort of bored me. But I scored a huge lot of M&P base for dirt cheap from someone leaving the craft and I have to say I have a whole new respect for M&P soap crafting. I spent this weekend doing a bunch of stuff both in basic molds and trying to create cool effects in my loaf molds and wow did some of it kick my butt. It's just as much about timing as with CP but for different reasons. 

If you don't have the temp just right you'll either end up with bubbles all over the top and throughout the soap, or you start getting the hardened film across the top and have to remelt. If you remelt too many times it starts to dry out. And when pouring over anything at all you have to remember to spray the heck out of it with alcohol. Embeds will float and move on you no matter how well you think you have them anchored down. 

The one nice thing I think I like about M&P though is that with FO's and colorants - what you see is what you get! Not always so with CP. I think depending on what you do with M&P, there can be some real challenges with it


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## BWsoaps

You have to remember it does not really matter as customers won't know the difference and all they will see is soap at the end of the day. 

In the UK, if your on a market. They only let one person with the same stuff on. So there would never be to soap stands next to each other, that's just silly


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## Chrishaglerr

LBussy said:


> Okay I'll be the guy that says it.
> This is just wrong.  Can you make a M&P that's 100% cocoa butter?  You can with CP.
> 
> This is past wrong, it's false advertising and most of the people here I know try to stay away from these claims.  When you make them you make your soap a drug - do you follow the regulations for drugs?  Has this been independently tested as a drug would be?
> 
> There's no definition for "natural", and I'm sorry to say that adding oils to M&P soaps does diminish the lather.  Whether it's enough to matter is definitely up for debate but the same is true of CP.  Oil does not have the surface tension to hold bubbles; it will dampen the lather of any soap.  Soap is meant to solubilize oils, so as long as you have enough surfactant to dissolve and suspend the oils you're fine, but you are using up those finite properties.
> 
> I agree with all of this - but please, don't try to sell us a box of foo.  I respect all soapers, M&P, CP, HP, CPOP, IHOP, whatever.  I hold all soapers to the same standards though.  If what you say is untrue, you should expect to be called out on it - here especially.  If you don't realize what you say is untrue or potentially dangerous (in a litigious or health way) then you will get corrected.




Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

I wasn't trying to make a claim on here, maybe I didn't type it out as I was thinking. Whenever I sell my soaps, I list the the oils and what not used in that bar of soap "have been known to help with such and such, but isn't proven", which isn't making a legal claim. 

I agree that adding too much oil will obviously diminish lather eventually. All I was saying that I don't agree with the "1 Tablespoon" per pound method. It's all about getting creative and I think by putting a limit on new soap makers by telling them that anything over 1 Tablespoon will diminish lather isn't right. I use around 3-4 tablespoons and I don't see a decrease at all. That being said, I'm sure if I use 6-8 tablespoons I will see it diminish. 

Lastly, I want trying to sell anyone a box of "foo". Simply stating my opinions based on my own personally experience which may help some people on here.


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## kchaystack

Chrishaglerr said:


> I wasn't trying to make a claim on here, maybe I didn't type it out as I was thinking. Whenever I sell my soaps, I list the the oils and what not used in that bar of soap "have been known to help with such and such, but isn't proven", which isn't making a legal claim.



That is not how the FDA sees it, unfortunately.  

I am sure the more legal types on here will chime in - but it does infer treatment of something.  

Now, the FDA do not have the manpower to police this - which is why so many get away with claims and poor labeling.  But if you have an unfortunate run in with a litigation happy person, you will be in for a bad shock.


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## Saponista

I would worry that adding all that oil would lead to the soap going rancid much more quickly as well as reducing lather.


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## rparrny

CookbookChef said:


> I was having a discussion at a local craft fair with fellow soap makers. On the left side of the room they had a stand up with M&P Soaps, Lovely indeed...But the Price they listed was exactly the same price as the Cold Process Soap stand right next to them... Yes, I would LOVE to here what ya'll think  Is M&P Cheating?


Capitalism at it's very best!
Having made both I can tell you that both can be very time consuming.  I have seen CP soaps that I wouldn't pay 5 bucks for and M&P that were worth much more.
That being said, assuming the the CP vendor had some attractive, good quality soaps...I would think any CP soapmaker that sells would know that a M&P maker would very likely be there as well.  If I were selling...I would have a BIG display discussing the differences between the two and alerting potential buyers to ask whether the soap they are about to buy is CP or M&P.  Some people really don't care, they want a pretty soap that they can display or has some quality about it they want...if they can find that in a pretty M&P they are just fine with it.  On the other hand, some people want the qualities of hand made CP soaps...maybe they don't even know the difference...which is why EDUCATION IS EVERYTHING.
That the M&P vendors were snide and rude?  Most M&P vendors are more artists then soap makers....artists tend to be a bit more...well I'm just gonna stop there before I offend anyone...
M&P can make some stunning beautiful soaps that ya just can't do with CP...just the fact that it wasn't made from scratch doesn't diminish it's value IMHO.


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## BWsoaps

Yes. Yes it is.


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## soapdrool

Its a shame you had this experience. I make MP soaps and I have been a "neighbor" to CP/HP soap makers many times at craft/art fairs and I always make it a point to say hello to my fellow crafter. I've never had a CP/HP soap maker feel upset that I'm their neighbor. The last craft fair I attended I was a neighbor to a wonderful lady with beautiful CP soaps. By the end of the fair we both bartered with each other. It seems that you may be siding one way, everyone has their own right to their thoughts and opinions but I'm positive most people that design or make MP soaps are not "cold" and most take their art very seriously. There is enough room for both works of art.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

To recap my position for those new to the thread who haven't read it all - 

If you are selling m&p, a base which you bought, then you are not making soap. Making soap is combining lye and oils together - if you haven't done that in producing these bars, then you haven't made soap. 

The base that you buy IS soap - you don't have to do anything else to it to make soap. 

Now, I do think the things that people do with m&p is amazing, truly. I'm not saying it is a lower class or not as involved or anything like that. In many ways it seems to be much harder than making soap. 

But anytime I see someone marketing their m&p soaps as 'handmade' when they have not actually combined the oil and lye for these bars, I consider that to be misleading.


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## kapesta

*M&P is not "cheating"*

The reason that I use M&P is that I can get detergent free, no lye bases. I pride myself on using the best bases I can get, with no chemicals, parabens, SLES, SLS, and no artificial preservatives. 
I agree that the CP soaps are works of art, and take more time and effort. However, I just don't want some of the ingredients in my soaps that have to go into CP.
I research everything that I put into my M&P soaps. I have a background in Aromatherapy, so every additive is natural. I use EO's for both their therapeutic properties and fragrance. Every color comes from a plant source that is beneficial for the skin, in conjunction with the EO's. I spend many hours researching and creating my combinations. 
So, in that regard, I spend as much time as a CP soap maker. I am sure that many people don't put the time and effort into their M&P, but that is their choice. I am proud of every product that I offer my customers.


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## snappyllama

All soap, including M&P bases, originates from lye + oils. You might not see sodium hydroxide listed on the ingredients as it is not present in the finished product. It went into the pot though...


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## Dana89

kapesta said:


> The reason that I use M&P is that I can get detergent free, no lye bases. I pride myself on using the best bases I can get, with no chemicals, parabens, SLES, SLS, and no artificial preservatives.
> I agree that the CP soaps are works of art, and take more time and effort. However, I just don't want some of the ingredients in my soaps that have to go into CP.


KAPESTA- with all due respect, I have to say what you just wrote is what bothers CP soapmakers about Melt&Pour.
What is it you think CP soapmakers have to add to our soap that M&P do not? there isn,t any more ingredients in basic CP that in MP. MP actually has more, there is a chemical added to it to make it melt like it does.
Yes your base was made with LYE just like CP. Then it has added chemicals that do not go into CP, if that is your main concern you may want to take up CP. I am not saying that MP is bad, I know some are high quality indeed.
If you want to drive a soap maker crazy, start telling your customers that your soap is not made with lye. Look on the label of your M&P, does it say saponified coconut oil, olive oil, ect? That means it was made with lye, otherwise you could not legally call your product soap.
I wrote earlier in this forum that I haven't seen many complaints about MP itself, most are complaints are about mis-informed MP soapers telling their customers that their soap contains no lye, but the man/woman over there selling CP uses lye.
If you are already selling, just please read more on the product you are selling. You should know these things if your selling to people.
Again I hope i don,t sound rude. I am not trying to be and I wish you luck on your soaping endeavors.


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## skayc1

kapesta said:


> The reason that I use M&P is that I can get detergent free, no lye bases.



You do know that your M&P base is made using LYE? It would not be soap if it the Lye wasn't used to make it.


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## Marley

All soap is made with Lye, the completed product no longer contains Lye.  M&P contains chemicals that allows it to be heated and reheated repeatedly.  CP soap does not.  I do not consider M&P handmade, no more than I would consider a body butter made using a prepared base handmade, or a lip balm using a prepared base handmade. I do not consider oil and sugar in a jar to be a sugar scrub, I think we can do so much better than that. I'm a purist, and I think some M&P is really pretty and I don't consider it cheating but I don't consider it handmade either.  But when I see people selling a body butter made with a prepared base (they simply add water to a prepared base in varying degrees to make it either a lotion or a cream) I think that's cheating.


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## lsg

Perhaps we can consider it semi-handmade like the cooking show.  I don't consider it cheating as long as the soap is clearly labeled Melt and Pour or "Glycerine Bar."


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## dixiedragon

kapesta said:


> The reason that I use M&P is that I can get detergent free, no lye bases. I pride myself on using the best bases I can get, with no chemicals, parabens, SLES, SLS, and no artificial preservatives.
> I agree that the CP soaps are works of art, and take more time and effort. However, I just don't want some of the ingredients in my soaps that have to go into CP.


 
Seriously? Do you really not understand that lye was used to make your M&P base?

Here are the ingredients for Brambleberry's MP:
*Common Name:  *Coconut Oil, Palm Oil, Safflower Oil, Glycerin (kosher, of vegetable origin), Aqua/Water/Eau, *Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent)*, Sorbitol (moisturizer), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Oat protein (conditioner), Titanium Dioxide (mineral whitener used in opaque soaps)


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## IrishLass

When it comes to making M&P, I like the term 'hand-crafted' instead of 'handmade'.....because you are taking a ready-made base that somebody else made, and you are crafting it into your own design scheme.

I don't look at it as 'cheating' as much as I look at it as a whole different art-form that takes a fair bit of talent and creativity to be able to turn it into something beautiful.......many times quite stunningly beautiful I might add.

The only time I would look at it as cheating is if the person crafting the pre-made base is advertising it as something they made completely from 'scratch' themselves when all they did was use a ready-to-use-as-is base made by somebody else.

But if they actually happened to have made the base from scratch themselves (which one can indeed do at home with the right ingredients), only then would I consider it 'handmade'.


IrishLass


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## Seawolfe

Uhm, what do you think makes your M&P "soap"? By definition it is either saponified oils using LYE, &/or detergents in there. Are you really selling to people and you don't know this? I guaranteed you that there ARE chemicals in everything that you are using.


kapesta said:


> The reason that I use M&P is that I can get detergent free, no lye bases. I pride myself on using the best bases I can get, with no chemicals, parabens, SLES, SLS, and no artificial preservatives.
> I agree that the CP soaps are works of art, and take more time and effort. However, I just don't want some of the ingredients in my soaps that have to go into CP.
> I research everything that I put into my M&P soaps. I have a background in Aromatherapy, so every additive is natural. I use EO's for both their therapeutic properties and fragrance. Every color comes from a plant source that is beneficial for the skin, in conjunction with the EO's. I spend many hours researching and creating my combinations.
> So, in that regard, I spend as much time as a CP soap maker. I am sure that many people don't put the time and effort into their M&P, but that is their choice. I am proud of every product that I offer my customers.


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## chemandcreate

*Is Melt and Pour Soap Cheating*

Short answer. No it's not.
It seems that the MP soapers you were talking to were about the money, which is all well and good. But in my experience people like that alienate their consumer base through misinformation and general bad form.
I have noted a rather disturbing amount of hostility from CP soap makers, when I tell them I make MP soaps. They automatically assume a tone of superiority with me that I find infuriating. But I guess if they have only met people like described I now know why.
Here's my take: I love MP, it's easy and fun. I can play more with scent combinations and have brighter colours to work with. I don't sell it as natural or organic, or 100% handmade. I sell it as Bright, Fun, customisable scented soaps, that don't require 6-8 weeks before I can get them to the customer.
And when my CP soaps are ready to be sold I will be selling them as. 100% Natural, Vegan, Handcrafted soaps, Free from harsh chemicals that can damage your skin's PH. Custom made with carefully selected oils, natural additives and waters combined as part of a holistic lifestyle to aid in alleviating ailments etc.
My CP soaps will be geared more toward, health fanatics, families with young children etc. My MP toward teenagers, young adults, and people looking for gifts for other people.
It terms of pricing, CP soaps are cheaper to make as it's from scratch, but require more time. MP soaps are more expensive material wise but take less time. If your factoring in your time as well as expenses, it's pretty even.
I personally will be using CP soaps, as I noted a HUGE difference in my overall health once I reduced the amount of chemicals I had been putting on my skin, but I still love MP and if someone wants only to make MP then good on them and I hope that they heaps of fun doing it.


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## LBussy

chemandcreate said:


> And when my CP soaps are ready to be sold I will be selling them as. 100% Natural, Vegan, Handcrafted soaps, Free from harsh chemicals that can damage your skin's PH. Custom made with carefully selected oils, natural additives and waters combined as part of a holistic lifestyle to aid in alleviating ailments etc.


And you will be derided by more than a few CP soap makers and possibly granted a nice letter from the FDA.  That's all in a different thread I think.

I love the creativity I see in some M&P soaps.  The same people can probably do the same thing with CP.  Creativity is creativity - DaVinci was an artist and an engineer.  I don't care one way or the other, but I do cringe when I see people make health claims when marketing their soaps.


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## pamielynn

I still think that MP soaping is NOT soap MAKING. This is getting old - this back and forth - but as long as the MPer is honest with their customers, all's good. I think many of us have seen just one too many soap booths with craft soap being sold as handmade soap, with wild claims attached, as well. I've got one here telling people that her plain MP will cure ringworm. Gah! And I truly believe that is the root of all this discord.


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## chemandcreate

Hi LBussy,
Please refer back to the whole of my post. I think if you reread it as a whole again you might get what I'm trying to say a bit better instead of pulling out one section.

Having said that I am curious about what the FDA would take issue to? But I guess it doesn't matter as I'm not in the U.S.


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## Kitty_Boots

I feel like melt and pour is cheating.. but I also feel that it's possibly a fun way to do different things that you might not be able to do with CP soap. I feel like a CP soap is more natural.. as you decide every ingredient that goes in it..


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## snappyllama

chemandcreate said:


> Hi LBussy,
> Please refer back to the whole of my post. I think if you reread it as a whole again you might get what I'm trying to say a bit better instead of pulling out one section.
> 
> Having said that I am curious about what the FDA would take issue to? But I guess it doesn't matter as I'm not in the U.S.



I was curious and found this as the first google search. Australia has similar laws. You cannot make medical claims...

If you plan on selling a product, you should care enough to take 30 seconds to look up your own regulations. Just saying...

http://www.nicnas.gov.au/chemical-information/cosmetics/marketing-requirements


----------



## McGraysoldtowngifts

How does a Crafted Melt and pour soap base fit into this Discussion There are many that utilize many of the same ingredients as the CP/HP soaps. I have watched many videos of people making a detergent free soap base. Now they are also making it with out using alcohol. Here is a great video of how it is done with a link to a second video to a Clear base that the same person makes. [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLZW4OE-Pss[/ame].

  Todd


----------



## shunt2011

Because that's what most people make. Making your own MP is pretty expensive. Not many make it themselves. They are talking about pre-made bases.


----------



## McGraysoldtowngifts

Just thought it could be an option for anyone who wanted to make a more natural product and get the value of it being a Melt and Pour base. I am a little confused as to how it could be more expensive. The ingredients I priced the ingredients and found it to be comparable in cost to most of the Melt and pour bases.

   Todd


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## chemandcreate

Hey snappy, 
I'm claiming to AID in alleviating. Not saying it will. It's a fine line, but one that I don't cross and one that I plan on using to market my products. I love a good loophole.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

chemandcreate said:


> Hey snappy,
> I'm claiming to AID in alleviating. Not saying it will. It's a fine line, but one that I don't cross and one that I plan on using to market my products. I love a good loophole.



Still not okay - that is not a cosmetic claim.

This is why many cosmetics say "Can help to reduce the _*appearance *_of fine lines and wrinkles" because then it is a cosmetic claim, not a medical claim of repairing the skin.

This is from the link Snappy gave, right there on the front of it - 

[A cosmetic product may be presented as being explicitly for cosmetic purposes only].

That is pretty clear.  As Snappy said, you might want to look in to things a bit more and maybe actually consult someone on it.


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## snappyllama

Sorry, I re read my post and came across pretty unpleasant. I really shouldn't post when I'm hungry. What I should have said...

Please do not make unsubstantiated medical claims on any products. Aside from regulatory compliance issues that you should familiarize yourself with, you are risking the actual health of your customers. I feel very strongly about this as a family member refused proper medical care while attempting to self diagnose / self treat a "rash". It turned out to be something serious that would have been much more easily treatable had she gone to the doctor instead of slathering herself with vaguely medicinal sounding lotions... Very similar sounding to the copy you wrote. 

As tempting as it may be to find loopholes in regulations, please understand that they help protect vulnerable people from themselves.


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## TBandCW

:mrgreen:Snappy Llama you made me smile when you said "I shouldn't post when I'm hungry!"

Anyhows....my 2 cents for this thread.  I have done shows with a  sweetheart of a gal who does mp and says it's lye free.  I don't say anything because it doesn't hurt my biz and we do like each other.  This thread has clarified what I  questioned....how can mp soap be lye free?  I guess I can say my cured cp is lye free too based on that same reasoning.  Thank you all for clearing this up for me. 
My first soaping ever was with mp and I enjoyed the creativity of it until my beautiful creations melted at the summer farmers mkts.  Time to learn the art of cp, I sell sooooo much more cp soap than I ever did mp soap.   I haven't done mp since.


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## Marley

lsg said:


> Perhaps we can consider it semi-handmade like the cooking show.  I don't consider it cheating as long as the soap is clearly labeled Melt and Pour or "Glycerine Bar."


CP soap also contains glycerin.  It is a natural byproduct of the saponification process in making soap.


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