# Liquid Soap Preservatives again!



## Carl (Nov 24, 2019)

Yes, I know.  Beating this topic to death.  How much could you possibly talk about liquid soap and preservatives?

In this post, I'm referring to the liquid foamer bottles which have an even greater water content than the base liquid soap.

I think most of the brains on this website have suggested to use a preservative in these products.  We've already established that so I'm trying to not make that the topic again .

What is driving my questions is what most other people are doing.  Look on a website such as Etsy and search for Foaming Hand Soap.  NOBODY has a preservative in her/his ingredient list (OK, I didn't look at everyone, but you get the point).  Even checkout some websites of other soapers.

It just doesn't make sense.  Every article you read, most of the posts on this site, all suggest the use of a preservative.  

Which takes me to the next question.  Where does the liability fall if a product gets infested with mold and the maker did not use a preservative?  So you sell something to someone w/o preservative, it sits in the closet for 2 years, it gets mold, they get sick.  Is it the soap makers liability?  Or the consumer for using something that spoiled?

Maybe it's the consumer's problem and maybe this is why no one who sells is using preservative?

If I buy a quart of milk and I drink it next year and get sick, I don't hold the farmer liable.  I know there's an expiration date on milk, but still.  

I'm just trying to figure out why there is so much documentation out there about using preservatives (saying you should), but almost no one who sells uses them.

Just looking for some thoughts on this.

Thanks!


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## shunt2011 (Nov 24, 2019)

It’s the makers responsibility. It’s all part of GMP. It someone chooses to take the risk they need to be willing to accept the possible consequences.  Especially as small, generally home based businesses.  I know some will argue the point but I prefer to do what I feel is right for the safety of my customers.  Use by dates, batch numbers would be helpful to protect yourself  as well.


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## Carl (Nov 24, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> It’s the makers responsibility. It’s all part of GMP. It someone chooses to take the risk they need to be willing to accept the possible consequences.  Especially as small, generally home based businesses.  I know some will argue the point but I prefer to do what I feel is right for the safety of my customers.  Use by dates, batch numbers would be helpful to protect yourself  as well.



Yeah, I'm just astonished by how many sellers take this risk.  It's almost all of them!  Did they not do the same research I did?  Unfortunately, the seller with the preservative is at a severe disadvantage.  Two tables at the local craft fair next to each other both selling LS.   One person says yes my LS has a preservative and they even have some nice sounding ingredients on the label like ButylCarbonate.  Other seller sells his/her soap with no preservatives.  You know who's going to do most of the selling that day?


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## shunt2011 (Nov 24, 2019)

You explain why you add preservative. Then it doesn’t matter to most customers.


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 24, 2019)

Carl said:


> NOBODY has a preservative in her/his ingredient list


With all due respect to my colleagues here that disagree, on that note, I rest my case. According to Catherine Failor who wrote "the bible" on liquid soap in 1999, _"fully saponified liquid soap does not require a preservative." _

I've been making liquid soap since 2004. I never use preservative. A few of the LS-ers on the Liquid Soap Making Yahoo group went on to establish manufacturing plants -- one in particular who has such a factory in Indonesia,  simply says, "no preservative."  Some top "all natural" brands like Dr Bronner's and Vermont Soap have been around for ages (think "hippie days) and don't contain preservatives.

If a preservative WERE necessary you'd think the people who manufacture and sell preservatives would formulate one specifically for LS but, as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet. 

So, Carl, my advice to you is to think for yourself and make up your own mind.


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## Dumfrey (Dec 6, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> With all due respect to my colleagues here that disagree, on that note, I rest my case. According to Catherine Failor who wrote "the bible" on liquid soap in 1999, _"fully saponified liquid soap does not require a preservative." _
> 
> I've been making liquid soap since 2004. I never use preservative. A few of the LS-ers on the Liquid Soap Making Yahoo group went on to establish manufacturing plants -- one in particular who has such a factory in Indonesia,  simply says, "no preservative."  Some top "all natural" brands like Dr Bronner's and Vermont Soap have been around for ages (think "hippie days) and don't contain preservatives.
> 
> ...




To me, the question lies in at what point in dilution does a preservative become necessary?

Liquid soap is a solution of (at a very basic level) water and alkaline salts.
Soap is PH 8-10ish, distilled water is 7.  Depending on the level of dilution, the PH can be 7.5 (nearly all DW) to 10 (all soap).  7.5, is barely above neutral, and in that environment, bacteria and mold  can flourish.  Not that they will, but COULD.

This management of risk is also a product of scale.  If I sell 10 bottles of LS, my risk is X, if I sell 1000, my risk is increased proportionately. (Not a risk management assessor but risk does not always scale linearly).

So, for some business (and specific products) a preservative was deemed unnecessary.  To use the Dr.Bronners example. They do not use a preservative.  But do sell full soap, undiluted.  Likely a risk management decision as much as a label/product decision.


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## lsg (Dec 6, 2019)

I prefer to play it safe.  When selling to the public, you are liable if your product can be proven to have caused harm.  Ask yourself these questions.  Is it worth it to chance causing someone discomfort or harm?  Is it worth chancing legal action?


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## Arimara (Dec 6, 2019)

While I agree that fully saponified soap needs no preservative, that does not apply to DILUTED fully saponified soap. Even distilled water isn't 100% safe from microbial growth once opened.


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## Carl (Dec 6, 2019)

Dumfrey said:


> To me, the question lies in at what point in dilution does a preservative become necessary?
> 
> Liquid soap is a solution of (at a very basic level) water and alkaline salts.
> Soap is PH 8-10ish, distilled water is 7.  Depending on the level of dilution, the PH can be 7.5 (nearly all DW) to 10 (all soap).  7.5, is barely above neutral, and in that environment, bacteria and mold  can flourish.  Not that they will, but COULD.
> ...



Interesting idea here.  I like to think of the base liquid soap that most people on this site make as equivalent to Dr. Bronner's.  This is already diluted paste.   Pure liquid soap.  So I like to think of Dr Bronners about equal to after you've diluted your paste.

But when you make a foamer bottle, you are diluting it a lot more.  Some people add water to Dr. Bronners' to make foamers.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 6, 2019)

lsg said:


> I prefer to play it safe.  When selling to the public, you are liable if your product can be proven to have caused harm.  Ask yourself these questions.  Is it worth it to chance causing someone discomfort or harm?  Is it worth chancing legal action?


With all due respect, and fuzzy science aside, if someone would PLEASE just for once site a case where legal action was taken because some soaper didn't preserve their liquid soap, then you (and all the others) would have a basis for your argument... 

Consider the fact that Cather Failor's book on LS was published in 1999. The Liquid Soapmaking Yahoo Group started in 2000. I joined in 2004. For the first 10 years or so on that group, the subject of using a preservative never came up. So it's a fairly recent phenomenon IME. One member in particular set out to prove that it did require a preservative and she was going to run tests and report back. Never happened. 

Plus, for those like me who are less knowledgeable about the science of a how some preservatives can turn a soap into formaldehyde (and such) 6 months down the road, IMHO, you really need to know how whatever preservative you choose reacts with soap over the long haul. 

LSM member Steve Mushensky of Summer Bee Meadows did a thorough explanation of why not to use a preservative for that reason but I didn't make a copy of it. Didn't think I'd need it. Wish I had done so.


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## lsg (Dec 6, 2019)

Don't bet your life on not being sued.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/has-anyone-ever-had-issues-selling-soap-been-sued.24254/


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 6, 2019)

Carl said:


> In this post, I'm referring to the liquid foamer bottles which have an even greater water content than the base liquid soap.


Just for you, Carl, I took a moment to test the pH of a foamer I currently have at my kitchen sink. The test paper is between pH 10 and 10.5. I hope that answers your question... 










Good information on that thread, Linda, but where's the actual case? Saying somebody heard that a soaper was sued without details wouldn't stand up in a court of law. What am I missing?


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## lsg (Dec 6, 2019)

I think your missing the point.  Even if a lawsuit can't be pointed out, why take the chance.


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## lenarenee (Dec 6, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> With all due respect to my colleagues here that disagree, on that note, I rest my case. According to Catherine Failor who wrote "the bible" on liquid soap in 1999, _"fully saponified liquid soap does not require a preservative." _
> 
> I've been making liquid soap since 2004. I never use preservative. A few of the LS-ers on the Liquid Soap Making Yahoo group went on to establish manufacturing plants -- one in particular who has such a factory in Indonesia,  simply says, "no preservative."  Some top "all natural" brands like Dr Bronner's and Vermont Soap have been around for ages (think "hippie days) and don't contain preservatives.
> 
> ...



Well, it's quite possible that they do. The preservative can be 'piggybacked' with another ingredients, and if so - they don't have to list it on the ingredient labels.   Lotions companies can do the same thing.   When my little one was a baby and I neglected to read the product label before purchasing, I phone the companies to inquire why there was no preservative in the soap/lotion that was targeted at babies.  Lo and behold - they actually did contain preservatives.


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## Carl (Dec 7, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Just for you, Carl, I took a moment to test the pH of a foamer I currently have at my kitchen sink. The test paper is between pH 10 and 10.5. I hope that answers your question...
> View attachment 42864
> 
> View attachment 42865
> ...



Wow, thanks Zany.
Great info.


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