# "Hard" Babassu oil for deodorant?



## cerelife (Oct 30, 2018)

I replied to a post a while back about Soaper's Choice Babassu oil being liquid, stating that mine had always been hard as a rock.
I stand corrected. My latest order of babassu from them arrived as liquid and has roughly the same consistency/melting point as coconut oil. After contacting customer service, I was told that this was the norm for babassu and the new oil was the only one they offered.
This 'new' babassu was a disaster in my deodorant recipe based on their older hard version of this oil!
Can anyone point me in the right direction for "hard" babassu oil? I've searched the posts and looked over the New Directions website. They offer a few different options for babassu oil, but with no melting points for any of them!! AND the prices seem a little crazy...more than double the Soaper's Choice prices??
Any help or advice would be most welcome!


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## DeeAnna (Oct 30, 2018)

I bought my hard babassu here: https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Babassu-Oil.html

What I have is a brittle solid at normal room temperature -- it kind of fractures apart when I dig into it with a spoon. It's been a few years however, so I can't make any promises that a new purchase will be the hard version.

It seems like most suppliers (and most of us, until the "Defunk da pits" thread) are not aware that babassu can have various melt points. edit: Here's a link to the "Defunk" thread: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/de-funk-de-pits.60682/unread


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## amd (Oct 30, 2018)

I purchased from WSP and it is hard in the container. I think their price might be a bit higher though, even with shipping included.


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## cerelife (Oct 31, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> What I have is a brittle solid at normal room temperature -- it kind of fractures apart when I dig into it with a spoon.


YES!! This is a perfect description of what Soaper's Choice used to carry!
Thank you both for the suggestions. I'll order small amounts from both suppliers to see if it's what I'm looking for!


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## Lion Of Judah (Oct 31, 2018)

..... My Babassu (refined) from NDA is rock hard .


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## madison (Oct 31, 2018)

I wonder if I am getting it right, so you are all talking about babassu  hard oil not babassu butter?


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## cerelife (Nov 1, 2018)

Lion Of Judah said:


> ..... My Babassu (refined) from NDA is rock hard .


This one?
https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/carrier-oils/babassu-refined-carrier-oil.html
And have you ordered it from them recently? Sorry for all the questions, but I just don't want to make the same costly mistake again that I did with Soaper's Choice - assuming it's the same oil that they offered in the past!
Also, I would welcome any suggestions for things y'all love from NDA to make the jump from the $51 gallon of Babassu to the $100 minimum order! I guess I could just order 2 gallons of Babassu, but I'd like to know if they have any products that I should check out.


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## cerelife (Nov 1, 2018)

madison said:


> I wonder if I am getting it right, so you are all talking about babassu  hard oil not babassu butter?


Good question. I had never heard of babassu 'butter' until I looked at the NDA website.
https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/butters/babassu-refined-butter.html
I can't find anything in their documentation that clarifies the difference between this and the oil (as in additives, etc.), but this certainly looks like my old 'hard' babassu oil. What do you think DeeAnna??


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## HowieRoll (Nov 1, 2018)

I seem to recall from the mega De Funk da Pits thread that it was NDA's babassu butter, as madison mentioned, that was noted as being rock hard.  The MSDS for that product indicates it melts between 30-36C (86-97F), which would definitely be higher than the babassu oil I've purchased from other vendors.  I don't have any direct experience with this butter, however.  

Based on the De Funk thread, which is full of awesomely useful info, the most recent iteration of magnesium deodorant I made used (and I'm mentioning this recipe as an example if you wanted to play around with the babassu oil you currently have):

44% Babassu Oil (not the hard butter)
35% Magnesium Hydroxide
10% E-wax (from Mtn. Rose Herbs)
10% Cetyl Alcohol
1%  Fragrance 

It turned out to be just a scooch firmer than I'd like it to be, so will dial back the e-wax and cetyl alcohol by 0.5-1% each next time.   But it is a very effective deodorant for me.

Other things I love from NDA:  

Rosewood Natural Blend EO (like love, love, love this oil)
Patchouli (Dark) EO
Most of the other EOs I've ordered from them
Unrefined Cocoa Butter
Guava Powder Fruit Extract (just tried it in a syndet shampoo and love the soft hair effect)
Citric Acid (pretty good price)

Happy shopping!


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## amd (Nov 1, 2018)

Cerelife: some things I order from NDA are essential oils, dark patchouli, lemongrass, spearmint, and eucalyptus are the ones I use the most, although I do also have the Japanese Peppermint, Spanish Rosemary and Texas Cedarwood. I also use their silk peptides, ground pumice and french clays (I have pink and green from them). I want to get their dead sea mud but I know I won't use 2.2lbs on my own! I haven't tried any of their FO's, but I will probably add a few to my next order just out of curiosity.


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## madison (Nov 2, 2018)

cerelife said:


> Good question. I had never heard of babassu 'butter' until I looked at the NDA website.
> https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/butters/babassu-refined-butter.html
> I can't find anything in their documentation that clarifies the difference between this and the oil (as in additives, etc.), but this certainly looks like my old 'hard' babassu oil. What do you think DeeAnna??



 I bought my babassu butter twice from plant guru, they sell 8 oz for $14.


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## cerelife (Nov 2, 2018)

Thank you both so much for the recommendations!!
And HowieRoll, I'll try that recipe in the meantime as I have 7 lbs of the softer oil! Thank you for sharing!!


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## SoaperForLife (Nov 3, 2018)

HowieRoll said:


> Based on the De Funk thread, which is full of awesomely useful info, the most recent iteration of magnesium deodorant I made used (and I'm mentioning this recipe as an example if you wanted to play around with the babassu oil you currently have):
> 
> 44% Babassu Oil (not the hard butter)
> 35% Magnesium Hydroxide



So, (and I'm posting this because I am curious to know) Making Cosmetics recommends a maximum of 30% Magnesium Hydroxide and this recipe uses 35%.  Does it matter at all?


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## Lion Of Judah (Nov 3, 2018)

cerelife said:


> This one?
> https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/products/carrier-oils/babassu-refined-carrier-oil.html
> And have you ordered it from them recently? Sorry for all the questions, but I just don't want to make the same costly mistake again that I did with Soaper's Choice - assuming it's the same oil that they offered in the past!
> Also, I would welcome any suggestions for things y'all love from NDA to make the jump from the $51 gallon of Babassu to the $100 minimum order! I guess I could just order 2 gallons of Babassu, but I'd like to know if they have any products that I should check out.



Greetings cerelife , I apologize for responding so late to your post . The last time I've ordered Babassu from them was last year sometime . I've been ordering from them for years now and their Babassu Oil I get comes in a 33.3oz bottle that needs a warm bath to get it fluid . It has never melted on me. The "butter " I've never used so i can not speak on it . If you seriously want to try their product I would recommend putting fort any deep concerns you may have about their product to them . I'm not endorsing them nor am I a representative in any way , but I'm a satisfied customer .


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## HowieRoll (Nov 3, 2018)

SoaperForLife said:


> So, (and I'm posting this because I am curious to know) Making Cosmetics recommends a maximum of 30% Magnesium Hydroxide and this recipe uses 35%.  Does it matter at all?



I do not know where Making Cosmetics came up with their 30% max usage rate information, but will say I've not found any studies indicating as such (not saying they aren't out there, just that in my due diligence prior to using mag hydroxide I did not see any).  The recipe I make with 35% mag hydroxide is actually down from my original experimentation, where I used 40%.  In either case, I have not had any ill effects, and by ill effects I mean skin irritation.  I also found the 35% mag hydroxide recipe to be as effective as the 40% recipe, so my plan was to cut the mag hydroxide further in the next batch because I like to tinker.


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## earlene (Nov 11, 2018)

Well, now I know to save my hard babassu oil only for deodorant!  A couple of times I've thought of using it in something else, but so far I am so happy with it for deodorant that's all I've used it for.  And now reading this about Soaper's Choice new low-melting point babassu, I'm in no rush to use it all up.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 11, 2018)

I'm currently trying a babassu-mag hydroxide deo with only 15% mag hydroxide. I don't think it controls odor quite as well as my previous batch at 26% mag hydroxide. My nose seems to be picking up a bit more armpit odor than usual since I started using this batch. It's nothing that I think others would pick up, but I am. I'm tentatively thinking 20% to 25% is going to be the sweet spot for me.


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## cerelife (Nov 15, 2018)

HowieRoll, thank you so much for that recipe!! I made it a couple of days ago and so far I'm loving it! The addition of E-wax and cetyl alcohol added more stability (hardness) to the softer babassu without sacrificing the 'glide' if that makes sense. And this recipe is actually easier to work with than my old hard babassu recipe since the additives make it thinner (?) and the mag-hydroxide doesn't seem to have the tendency to clump up as much as in my old recipe! But it firms up like a champ to a very nice tube of deodorant. Not so soft that you feel like you're just smearing it into your armpits, but not so hard that it tugs on the guys' armpit hair (this is big deal with my husband!), so THANK YOU!!
Everyone has been so kind and helpful on this thread and I truly appreciate all of the advice and recommendations 
I don't know if this is useful information for anyone, but since I've learned so much from the "De-funk the Pits'" thread, I thought I'd add a couple of my thoughts about making this kind of deodorant:
I found that a milk frother was helpful in blending the mag-hydroxide into the oils to get rid of small clumps and making the mixture nice and creamy.
After trying several EOs and FOs from different companies in deodorant, there was one that stood out in that both the husband and I had coworkers comment that we smelled really nice (in 110 degree temps on the flight-line  for him/stressful ER situations for me) and asked what kind of deodorant we were using. And NO COMMENTS during normal conditions - this FO isn't overpowering by any means, but it's a pleasant unisex scent that works really well in deodorant under extreme conditions.
http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/lime-basil-mandarin-fragrance-oil.aspx


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## HowieRoll (Nov 15, 2018)

Yay, I'm glad it is working out for you!  I can't take any credit, because the recipe I use was formulated based on the tips and tricks gleaned from the De Funk De Pits thread.  It's been trial and error to try to get the right proportions of ewax/cetyl/babassu, as initially I didn't use enough ewax/cetyl and found it was a little too meltable and I was smearing a bit more on my pits than I needed.  But then I went a little too far the other way, because now I need to dial the ewax/cetyl back a bit to make it just a bit softer.  I am  kicking myself because I never thought to test the tube sitting in my car on a hot day this past summer, and am curious how it would hold up in the heat (and especially when traveling).

I'm also playing around with the percentage of magnesium hydroxide, so DeeAnna, appreciate what you've shared on that end.  

It seems every single one of my DIY projects are a work in progress!


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## DeeAnna (Nov 15, 2018)

_"...It seems every single one of my DIY projects are a work in progress!..."_

I agree with that, @HowieRoll! I went overboard with the emulsifier (I'm using BTMS) and cetyl and made the deo much too hard. My pits were real unhappy about being scrubbed with a "rock" of too-hard deo.


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## cerelife (Nov 16, 2018)

Just a note about the hardness of HowieRoll's recipe:
It IS a bit hard right now since our temps have been averaging in the 40's for the past week here in the deep South during a cold snap. AND we live in an old antebellum home with 15-foot ceilings (super hard to keep warm)!!
But I wouldn't want to change the hardness because this is SOOOO not our norm! Even with the cold temps, we've found that if we hold the tube of deodorant against our armpits for about 5 seconds before gliding it on, it works like a dream  Nice even application with no tugging or smearing!
I'll let y'all know how it behaves when we get back to our normal Southern temps


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## HowieRoll (Nov 16, 2018)

Yes, the recipe became a bit too hard for me, too, as summer changed to fall.  The thing is, one of my previous iterations was 56.5% Babassu, 35% Mag Hydroxide, 4% Ewax, 4% Cetyl Alcohol, and .5% fragrance.  It was way too soft during summer, and I found myself using a 90g deodorant container every 2 months.  Then I made the recipe referenced in post #9 in early August, and thought it was fantastic...  until early August weather turned into insta-winter here in Wisconsin in late October.  Even so, the 90g batch lasted me a solid 3 months because it wasn't as soft as earlier versions, meaning I wasn't using quite as much during application and was still just as effective.

Yesterday I made a batch that is 51% Babassu, 30% Mag Hydroxide, 9% Ewax, 9.5% Cetyl Alcohol, and 0.5% Fragrance.  I'll have to see how this one is during colder temps (i.e. hopefully it won't rip the hide off  my pits - @DeeAnna, I'm all too familiar with the unhappy pit sensation with too-hard deodorant!), but am beginning to think there may need to be a winter version and summer version.

By the way, @cerelife, thanks for the tip about using a frother to mix in the magnesium hydroxide.  I always thought it would be too thick to use my mini-mixer for the job, but tried it out yesterday and it worked a dream!


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## DeeAnna (Nov 16, 2018)

The "rip my pits off" version was a total of 50% BTMS + cetyl alcohol with 30% babassu and the rest mag hyd. Not good. I think you're pretty safe at 18-19% E-wax + cetyl!

The version I'm using now is about 38% BTMS + cetyl alcohol with 46% babassu and the rest being mag hyd. It works much better for me, even with the house being cooler nowadays. Like Cerelife, I warm the deo against my armpit for a moment or two -- not long -- and then apply. Works very well. 

My only concern with this latest batch is whether it's controlling odor well enough at 15% mag hydroxide. I'm still not sure. It seems to be working better now, and I have been wondering if the odd odor I noticed earlier was related to the new FO I used in this batch, more than my pits being actually smelly. Or maybe a temporary body change that's corrected itself. Whatever the reason, the odor issue seems to be gone. I'll keep using this deo for some months to make sure that it's controlling odor well enough or not.


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## SoaperForLife (Nov 18, 2018)

Since following the Defunk thread, it has always been my understanding that it's the babassu that fights the bacteria present under your arm.  According to Making Cosmetics, magnesium hydroxide has the following benefits: 

*Has effective oil-absorbent properties binding the oil on skin and from inside the pore lining*
*Widely used as filler and texturizer*
*Can be used to neutralize acids (pH < 7.0) but reacts only slowly. Cannot increase the pH further in products with a pH > 7.0.*
*Use: Typical use level is 0.2-1.5% when used as pH adjuster. When used as absorbent, filler or texturizer, it can be used at up to 30%. For external use only.*
If you go by what Making Cosmetics says, only a very small percentage could actually be attributed to fighting body odor.  The rest aids in product "feel" and sops up sweat.  Perhaps the large percentage used actually plugs the sweat glands and that is how it works...


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## DeeAnna (Nov 18, 2018)

I'm puzzled. The info you provided doesn't  seem to support your conclusions.

I will also say I'm skeptical about your idea that mag hydroxide might plug the sweat glands. I get cysts and infections from antiperspirants because of their ability to do this. I'm quite certain I'd know by now if mag hydroxide had this ability.


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## SoaperForLife (Nov 21, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> I'm puzzled. The info you provided doesn't seem to support your conclusions.
> 
> I will also say I'm skeptical about your idea that mag hydroxide might plug the sweat glands. I get cysts and infections from antiperspirants because of their ability to do this. I'm quite certain I'd know by now if mag hydroxide had this ability.



 So then, how or what do you think Magnesium hydroxide brings to the table? And I'm only asking this because I did some googling and didn't find any attributes other than as a ph adjuster at less than 2%... you probably know more about it than I do and I'm curious... I'm always curious when I see something being used in a recipe that I know nothing about.


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## lolaM (Jan 4, 2019)

Iv'e been following all these "de-funk da pits" and related threads for sometime now. I long ago gave up on my quest for a natural homemade deodorant but considering giving it another go with all the amazing info you have all contributed. My question is (And please excuse my ignorance here folks!) But what exactly is Magnesium hydroxide? And where can i buy it in Canada? I know that Epsom salts are Magnesium sulfate but i can't find the "hydroxide" available to buy anywhere other than amazon in large quantity. 
Im about to place an order at Candora and they stock "Magnesium Chloride flakes" would this be a comparable product?


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## soapmaker (Jan 4, 2019)

amd said:


> Cerelife: some things I order from NDA are essential oils, dark patchouli, lemongrass, spearmint, and eucalyptus are the ones I use the most, although I do also have the Japanese Peppermint, Spanish Rosemary and Texas Cedarwood. I also use their silk peptides, ground pumice and french clays (I have pink and green from them). I want to get their dead sea mud but I know I won't use 2.2lbs on my own! I haven't tried any of their FO's, but I will probably add a few to my next order just out of curiosity.


Kind of off topic but I wanted to comment that NDA's Supreme Peppermint is definitely worth the cost over Japanese Peppermint. And if you like fruity smells and plan to try some F.O. try Manchurian Dragon. Very popular.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 4, 2019)

lolaM said:


> ...what exactly is Magnesium hydroxide? And where can i buy it in Canada? ... they stock "Magnesium Chloride flakes" would this be a comparable product?



IMO, it needs to be magnesium hydroxide, Mg(OH)2. 

Magnesium chloride is Mg(Cl)2. Magnesium sulfate is MgSO4. These salts aren't the same as magnesium hydroxide, and I'm very doubtful they will have the same effect. It's like thinking sodium chloride (table salt) will do the same thing that sodium hydroxide does. Not remotely true! 

Seems like someone did try one of the magnesium salts in the "Defunk" thread, but I don't remember for sure -- all I seem to recall is whatever the person tried didn't work well.

Not sure about where to get it in Canada. Do you have a "GNC" store somewhere near you, perhaps? Or other type of a store that caters to people who want to buy health supplements. Maybe there are some Canadians who will have better advice for a source.


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## lolaM (Jan 9, 2019)

Thanks DeeAnna. I shall wait to see if any other Canadians have any ideas of where to buy it then. And i guess keep my eyes peeled at various health food stores


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## MGM (Jan 10, 2019)

My NDA babassu is almost identical to coconut oil in texture (I don't know its melting point. It's 19C in the house right now). Now, I did order from the Canadian store, about 6 months ago, so perhaps they have a different stock? In terms of what to order from NDA...it's my main supplier and I like all of their stuff (although perhaps I just don't know any better!). I love all of the FO I've received: even if I don't agree with the official description or the reviewers' comments, I still like the fragrance. Among EOs, the only one I actively dislike is Cedarwood (Atlas). I found Coffee EO smelled fantastic OOB but didn't impart much fragrance to products; I think this may be an issue with Coffee EOs in general, though. Anyway, if you have any questions about NDA products/fragrances, I'd be happy to offer my opinion. As you can see, I have a few to choose from


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## Gaisy59 (Jan 10, 2019)

Hi I’m from Winnipeg and i buy my babassu from New Directions online. Keep in mind that they have two kinds, oil and butter. The oil is softer. I buy both as i use them in my deo as well as soap making. As far as the magnesium i order that from Amazon


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## SoaperForLife (Jan 12, 2019)

Sort of an interesting thread on the Chemists Corner forum about using magnesium in a deodorant...https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/3712/working-with-magnesium


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