# Honey in lip balm without emulsifier & preservative



## apples (Jan 9, 2019)

I wanted to make lip balm with honey in it but after much research, it seems not advisable (if not impossible) without emulsifier and preservative. Some said they've successfully incorporated honey in lip balm by stirring and stirring until the balm cooled and hardened up. The recipe is pretty basic 1:1:1 of beeswax, butter, soft oil + 2% honey. 

3 questions:
1) is it really possible to mix in the honey like this without separation issue even after months? 
2) and not using preservative?
3) how to "pour" hardened lip balm into tubes/pot? [emoji848]


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## shunt2011 (Jan 9, 2019)

I don't use nor recommend using honey.  Honey is water soluble and will seep out.  Then you also have to worry about the sugar content and will feed the bugs/mold etc... it would need a preservative.    I've seen folks say they use it but I sure won't.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 9, 2019)

*These are good guidelines:
A simple formula to help guide you in lip balms formulations:*
20% Beeswax
25% Butters/Oils that are solid at room temperature. These butters are on the soft side. (mango, shea)
15% Butters that are hard at room temperature. These butters are on the brittle side. (cocoa butter, kokum butter)
40% Oils that are liquid at room temperature
These percentages should equal 100%.

A standard .15 oz tube will hold 6 grams of lip balm. 

So, right off the bat your 1:1:1 recipe would be MUCH too hard. If you want to try the method you describe, I'd use a recipe with the proportions I mentioned, then put the balm in little pots with a spatula, vs pouring into a tube. But using yellow (not deodorized) beeswax will give you a lovely honey scent/taste. Use deodorized cocoa butter, or something relatively scent free like kokum, so the honey scent won't have any competitors.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 9, 2019)

If you make lip balm with honey and stir enough to keep the honey droplets very small while the balm is cooling, the honey might be stable enough in the balm to stay incorporated for awhile, but you're counting on conditions being just right for this to happen. Variations in temperature that come from normal use can easily cause a non-emulsified mixture to separate and weep.

I've seen a whipped body butter in my local organic grocery store that didn't have any emulsifier to keep the water-based ingredients incorporated in the fats. The product when I saw it in the store had watery liquid seeping out of the fats. That was an ugly mess -- the product really needed a chemical emulsifier.

Emulsifier or not, that doesn't address the problem of microbial growth that will happen when carbohydrates (the honey) is combined with fats and microbial contamination from one's skin and lips. A preservative is essential.

I agree with Shari and Dixie. And I especially agree with Dixie about the amazing scent you can get from minimally processed beeswax. Find a local beekeeper who can provide "cappings wax" or "honey comb wax" from her bees. Buy beeswax based on appearance and smell -- it should be pale to medium yellow and have a pleasant scent to get the nicest appearance and fragrance in your products. Bleached and refined wax you get from suppliers isn't the same.


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## apples (Jan 9, 2019)

Thanks shunt and deeanna, guess honey is a no for me now [emoji17] probably better if I just eat em all [emoji16]

And thanks to Dixie for the suggestions. I'll give it a try, this will be my first time making lip balm. Appreciate the advice. 

Dad got me the comb (I'm not sure which part though) and I render the beeswax myself. It is pale yellow and smells really nice! Can't wait to use some of it.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 9, 2019)

If the wax was a mush of bits and pieces, your dad probably got cappings wax. If the wax was in larger intact pieces, it was honey comb. Either way -- lucky you!


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## IrishLass (Jan 9, 2019)

I have an experimental honey lip balm on my list of things to try making that I formulated loosely based on the *honey lip creme recipe* over at The Sage (MMS), and also some discussions over at the Dish forum about honey in lip balm. There's no preservative in the MMS formula, but based on the discussions over at the Dish forum, I've formulated mine to have one, and I've also formulated it to have 2 emulsifiers in it: lanolin and the conditioning emulsifier that MMS sells which can be used in lip balms. I've yet to make it, but I should mention that it is something I'll only be making for my own personal use because of the potential for it to go south. For what it's worth, this is my formula:

23% high-melt shea butter
20% natural beeswax
19.15% sweet almond oil
10% castor oil
10% natural cocoa butter
5.25% Butter EZ
5% Lanolin
3% flavor
2% honey
2% conditioning emulsifier
.5% vitamin E T-50
.1% phenonop

*Edited to add* my plan of action to heat the emulsifying wax separately and add the honey and lanolin to it and set aside while I heat my hard fats and beeswax. Once the hard fats/beeswax are melted, I'll add the liquid oils to them and then add in the honey/lanolin/conditioning emulsifier and then pour once combined. 


IrishLass


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## apples (Jan 9, 2019)

Thanks for sharing! I've been gathering recipes the whole day so I could read them all over during the weekend and maybe make some small batches or order some supplies if needed (emulsifier and preservative maybe, depending on whether I still want honey by then haha!)


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## MGM (Jan 12, 2019)

I'm confused....a few threads up, there's a recipe for Egyptian Magic cream (ingredients: olive oil, beeswax, honey, bee pollen, bee propolis, and royal jelly) with no emulsifier and no preservative. Here we have a recipe for honey lip balm with more oil-based ingredients and 2% honey (vs 10% honey plus other bee products), but both an emulsifier and preservative are recommended. Why?


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## DeeAnna (Jan 12, 2019)

@MGM -- It depends on who is participating in a thread as to what might be said or not said. If you feel one or the other of these threads contains poor or incomplete information, then by all means jump in and give your opinion.


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## SaltedFig (Jan 12, 2019)

MGM said:


> I'm confused....a few threads up, there's a recipe for Egyptian Magic cream (ingredients: olive oil, beeswax, honey, bee pollen, bee propolis, and royal jelly) with no emulsifier and no preservative. Here we have a recipe for honey lip balm with more oil-based ingredients and 2% honey (vs 10% honey plus other bee products), but both an emulsifier and preservative are recommended. Why?



Sugaring is a preservative method that, like salting, causes bacteria to lose water.

In lip balm, at 2%, honey would attract moisture and taste and smell nice, but have little or no preservative ability (the sugar content is low, so the honey may become a food source for the microbes instead).

While I'm not familiar with the Egyptian Magic cream, perhaps it uses the honey/sugars in a high enough concentration to work as a sugaring preservative.
Note: Sugaring, like salting, is not foolproof, but it's the basis of older preservative techniques (glace fruit is a classic example).

You might like to read this brief summary: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-salt-and-sugar-pre/


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## DeeAnna (Jan 12, 2019)

@SaltedFig -- No, the Egyptian Magic balm not self preserving. See for yourself if you like -- https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/egyptian-magic-all-purpose-skin-cream-bee-keepers.72747/


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## SaltedFig (Jan 12, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> @SaltedFig -- No, the Egyptian Magic balm not self preserving. See for yourself if you like -- https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/egyptian-magic-all-purpose-skin-cream-bee-keepers.72747/



That's the thread where the Egyptian Magic balm is discussed.
There's nothing in that thread commenting one way or another on whether the sugar is in sufficient quantity to have some preservative effect.
As I stated in my reply, I am not familiar with the product to know one way or another how much sugar it contains or how much of a preservative action the sugars it does contain would have.

(The reply I made for @MGM was to provide the concept of sugar preservation, so the idea could be explored as a potential answer to the question asked).


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## DeeAnna (Jan 12, 2019)

"...While I'm not familiar with the Egyptian Magic cream, perhaps it uses the honey/sugars in a high enough concentration to work as a sugaring preservative...."

I was responding to this statement. The balm isn't self preserving. That's all I wanted to say.

"...The reply I made for @MGM was to provide the concept of sugar preservation..."

I thought you were commenting specifically on the subject, not commenting in general. My apologies for misunderstanding.


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## SaltedFig (Jan 12, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> "...While I'm not familiar with the Egyptian Magic cream, perhaps it uses the honey/sugars in a high enough concentration to work as a sugaring preservative...."
> 
> I was responding to this statement. The balm isn't self preserving. That's all I wanted to say.
> 
> ...



I was commenting specifically on the subject, and introduced the concept of sugars as a preservative (with a link to provide a little more information).

@MGM, the product also contains propolis, which has it's own antimicrobial action.

As I mentioned earlier, I do not know this particular product, but it is interesting to look at the alternatives.
(Here's one where propolis is being looked at as a preservative for orange juice!: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29051632)


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 12, 2019)

I made this recipe (4 dozen lippies at a time) for a wholesale customer for over a year with no negative feedback. It sold very well. The trick is to stir it up to keep the honey incorporated while it cools to room temp. Fridge overnight. Reheat and pour the next day.

Do take good care with the Pyrex or Borosilicate glass container. Do not set hot glass on a cold surface. I have a wooden cutting board next to my microwave that I use just for that purpose.



> HONEY BEE LIP BALM
> Ingredients: Almond oil, avocado oil, beeswax, cocoa butter, coconut oil, lanolin, honey.
> 
> MMS Recipe (tweaked)
> ...


NOTES: MMS Honey Flavor Oil is spot on! Lanolin is sticky stuff. I use 2 popsicle sticks; 1 to dip out with one hand; the other in the other hand to weigh and scrape into the batch. I use local honey for its beneficial qualities.

FWIW: I learned watching "Jeopardy" that honey has the longest shelf life (3 years ?) of any product on our kitchen shelves. I've had it crystalize, but never saw even a miniscule drop of water. Just my experience.

ETA: Honey as a natural preservative: *https://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/honey-food-yeast-natural-preservative/*


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## Amy78130 (Feb 23, 2019)

You could also use CAP-2 from TKB. It’s a lip safe preservative that is oil soluable! A little btms would probably feel nice as an emulsifyer. I’m attempting to formulate a recipe, I’ll let you know how it turns out!!


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## redhead1226 (Feb 23, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> I have an experimental honey lip balm on my list of things to try making that I formulated loosely based on the *honey lip creme recipe* over at The Sage (MMS), and also some discussions over at the Dish forum about honey in lip balm. There's no preservative in the MMS formula, but based on the discussions over at the Dish forum, I've formulated mine to have one, and I've also formulated it to have 2 emulsifiers in it: lanolin and the conditioning emulsifier that MMS sells which can be used in lip balms. I've yet to make it, but I should mention that it is something I'll only be making for my own personal use because of the potential for it to go south. For what it's worth, this is my formula:
> 
> 23% high-melt shea butter
> 20% natural beeswax
> ...


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## Amy78130 (Feb 23, 2019)

I think someone mentioned natra butter from the herbarie having the same inci as butter ez


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## redhead1226 (Feb 24, 2019)

Amy78130 said:


> I think someone mentioned natra butter from the herbarie having the same inci as butter ez



It was discontinued as well.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 24, 2019)

I tried Lotion Crafter's Butter EZ... I was disappointed... not worth the money, to my mind, at least.


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## IrishLass (Feb 24, 2019)

Redhead- I'm using up the Butter-EZ I still have left on hand in my B&B 'pantry'.

When I run out (or maybe even before I run out), I'm going to try an experiment that 3bees~1flower over at the dish conducted by mixing  9% stearic acid and 3% fractionated coconut oil (to hopefully effect the same crystal-eliminating results of ButterEZ). I haven't seen an update from her as to how things are working out over the long haul, but the last time she checked in, it was still keeping the grains away after 2 months.



Zany_in_CO said:


> I tried Lotion Crafter's Butter EZ... I was disappointed... not worth the money, to my mind, at least.



How much did you use in product, Zany? I found it varies from  formula to formula. You can use it anywhere from a small % all the way up to 25%. In my lip balms, I found that using it at the rate of 15% as per the amount of butters in my formula is what kept the grains away forever ('forever' being over 2 years, and still counting). 


IrishLass


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 25, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> How much did you use in product, Zany?


I'm drawing a blank, Irish. My memory is SO bad these days.  I'm sure I used the recommended amount and I didn't experiment further after the first batch. It was a long time ago and used in a product I made for one of my wholesale customers. She didn't like it either.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 25, 2019)

I started adding a small amount of cera Bellina to my lip balms and I’m liking it so far.  Still testing to see if it totally stops the graininess or at least keeps it at bay longer than without.


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