# What type of palm oil to buy? + Coconut oil?



## narnia (Jan 2, 2016)

Happy New year everyone!  

I am confused as to what type of palm oil to buy.  I went shopping online and there are some in bottles and some in tubs, and some in cubes.

So, it looks like it comes in 3 different forms?  I would think that in a bottle would be liquid.  In tubs semi-solid, and the cubes would be the hardest?

If palm oil is supposed to contribute to hardness, how would the liquid in the bottles be capable of hardening at room temp?  I thought that oils that were hard at room temp lent themselves to hardening soap.

For coconut oil...is 76 or 92?  Which would be better for a harder bar, and why the difference?

Would appreciate some clarification in this matter.  Thanks in advance!


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## Steve85569 (Jan 2, 2016)

CO in 76 is what I buy because it's less refined or not at all refined and more available here.
I can't speak to the palm oil since my only experience with palm is tallow.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jan 2, 2016)

narnia said:


> Happy New year everyone!
> 
> I am confused as to what type of palm oil to buy.  I went shopping online and there are some in bottles and some in tubs, and some in cubes.
> 
> ...



All oils become solid soap.

Olive oil and palm oil are kind of similar, but palm has about 45% palmitic acid versus olive oil 15%, so that's where the additional hardness comes from. Palmitic acid content causes the cloudy stearin that you see in some olive oils when they get cold. It tends to sink to the bottom. Palm oil does the same thing but more so.

Palm oil can range from mostly liquid to pretty solid (like lumpy mashed potatoes, for instance) depending on the room temperature and the particular palm you buy. Contrary to common crafter belief, it's fine to just stir it and use it, even if it doesn't seem entirely uniform. You can also just scoop and weigh the solid stuff if it was mixed well before solidifying.

People have been known to melt palm oil every time before measuring it. This is a pain and will hasten the demise of the oil. You might have to melt the palm oil once if it's especially separated and difficult to stir together, or if you need to get it out of a bottle (alternatively, you can cut the bottle). Palm sold in cubes has been well mixed during solidification, so you can just scoop. That particular palm also seems less inclined to melt at warmer temperatures, to a point.

That is some general information about how palm behaves and how to use it, but bottom line you can buy it in any of those packages you asked about and assume it works the same.

CO 76 is the most commonly available coconut oil. CO 92 has been slightly hydrogenated so it isn't as eager to melt at room temp. The latter is a particularly good one to buy in cubes, but the two kinds work the same for practical purposes. CO 92 has a touch more stearic and theoretically adds more hardness, but the difference is very slight.


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## narnia (Jan 2, 2016)

Thank you!  That was very helpful!


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## Arimara (Jan 3, 2016)

Just keep this in mind- Don't get red palm oil (also called red palm butter). If the smell alone doesn't drive you batty, the  lather will. All my soaps with this oil,lather yellow and  can stain.


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## narnia (Jan 3, 2016)

Thank you!  What is a good source priced well to purchase palm oil from?


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## Arimara (Jan 4, 2016)

I know of Bulk Apothecary, if you're not opposed to the shipping. Brambleberry was nice but I hate the packaging they have for palm oil.


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## cmzaha (Jan 4, 2016)

If you are in the US Soaper's Choice is a good source for oils.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 4, 2016)

I second Soaper's Choice.  Even with shipping they are really reasonable.


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## narnia (Jan 4, 2016)

Thank you!  what about Essential Depot?  I came across them in my search.  Do they have good quality products?


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## shunt2011 (Jan 4, 2016)

I've only ever purchased lye from them so can't comment on other products.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 4, 2016)

I've never bought from them, but doing a price comparison, I think ED is on the more expensive side. I think people get sucked in by their "sales" and don't do the math.

92 degree coconut oil - I don't really see any benefit to it, unless you want to make a lotion bar with a lot of coconut oil in hot weather. I think some folks here live in hot climates and prefer it b/c it's easier to handle solid (or sort of solid) vs liquid. I set my 5 gal bucket of 76 degree CO out in the sun during the summer and pour it off into smaller containers.


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## narnia (Jan 4, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> If you are in the US Soaper's Choice is a good source for oils.





shunt2011 said:


> I second Soaper's Choice.  Even with shipping they are really reasonable.



Thank you!  I just placed my order of Palm oil from them!  After some comparisons and talking with them on the phone, they were the best deal!  

Now, I need the best source for lye.  SC did not carry any.


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## kchaystack (Jan 4, 2016)

The Lye Guy is the best deal if you are in the Eastern part of the US.  WWW.LyeGuy.com


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## shunt2011 (Jan 4, 2016)

Check out Essential Depot, The Lye Guy or if you need just a little WSP and NG carry it as well. I'm fortunate as I can get it locally in 55 lb bags which I'll do when I finish my 64 lbs I got from Essential Depot. Getting to the end.

Besides chemical comanies, check out restaurant oil suppliers.  That's where I get mine locally.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 4, 2016)

If/when you want to buy large quantities, I've found the best source is to google "chemical company my city" and call and see if they'll sell you lye. 

For small quantities, before you order online, try locally-owned hardware companies.


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## narnia (Jan 4, 2016)

Essential Depot has a sale on - 16 x 2 lb bottles for $49.95.  That sounds like a good deal, right?    

I bought my first bottle of lye for like $18 at Lowes.

What's this thing about "food grade" lye?  Is it better for soaping?  When I called ED to ask about it, he said that technical grade lye had a lot of heavy metals in it, but food grade does not.  If true, I would think that the heavy metals would get into our bodies through the skin in soap.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 4, 2016)

I've used both food grade and regular lye with no issues.   That's a pretty good price.  When I purchased my it was 16 x 2 for 33.00 so I purchased 32 of them and my parents picked it up on their way back from Florida.   Almost at the end. 

Still a pretty good price, just check around and remember to include shipping.


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## Steve85569 (Jan 4, 2016)

If you have an ACE Hardware check with them. Most of those stores carry lye as a drain cleaner. I pay $4 a pound and they keep it in stock for me. Sometimes I have to ask for it but it's there in the back room.

I get nervous when I drop below 5 Lbs ( 2k) .


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## narnia (Jan 4, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> I've used both food grade and regular lye with no issues.   That's a pretty good price.  When I purchased my it was 16 x 2 for 33.00 so I purchased 32 of them and my parents picked it up on their way back from Florida.   Almost at the end.
> 
> Still a pretty good price, just check around and remember to include shipping.



The price includes shipping.  

Whoops....does NOT include shipping.  Shipping is $25+.


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## Arimara (Jan 4, 2016)

narnia said:


> The price includes shipping.
> 
> Whoops....does NOT include shipping.  Shipping is $25+.



I have a feeling The Lye Guy is a better bet. If he had a way I could just drive up to pick up and order, it would be a trip well made (Central NY has some good wineries )


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## narnia (Jan 5, 2016)

Arimara said:


> I have a feeling The Lye Guy is a better bet. If he had a way I could just drive up to pick up and order, it would be a trip well made (Central NY has some good wineries )



Is his lye food grade?


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## topofmurrayhill (Jan 5, 2016)

narnia said:


> If true, I would think that the heavy metals would get into our bodies through the skin in soap.



That's not actually a realistic concern. It's fine to use food grade, and it certainly sounds appealing, but you don't have to. It's literally certified for use in food, and we don't eat soap. There are expert soapmakers making fine quality products -- just as safe and good as any -- using technical grade sodium hydroxide.

The manufacturers often make more grades than that, but only certain ones are available through our suppliers. Bramble Berry has a reagent-grade sodium hydroxide that I would like to find a good (economical) source for. The reason is that it comes in flakes.

I love using the flake form. Most of what we get is microbeads, which can fly around from static electricity when the air is dry or get sticky when the air is humid. Good luck when you need to measure into an interim container. It's a pain to get everything you measured into the water. With the flakes, no problem.

If we had a choice, the form of the caustic might be more important than the grade.


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## narnia (Jan 5, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> That's not actually a realistic concern. It's fine to use food grade, and it certainly sounds appealing, but you don't have to. It's literally certified for use in food, and we don't eat soap. There are expert soapmakers making fine quality products -- just as safe and good as any -- using technical grade sodium hydroxide.
> 
> The manufacturers often make more grades than that, but only certain ones are available through our suppliers. Bramble Berry has a reagent-grade sodium hydroxide that I would like to find a good (economical) source for. The reason is that it comes in flakes.
> 
> ...



That DOES sound ideal!!  I need to look into that the next time I order lye.  I did the math and ED came out cheaper on the lye so I ordered this a.m.


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## Arimara (Jan 5, 2016)

That's great to hear. I personally HATE their Naoh lye (those super small beads are of the debil!! :evil but they are a good price. You should have got some beef tallow from them too. I really like theirs- little smell (it's a little meaty and very creamy to me) and nicely priced. Beef tallow is LOVELY in soap, especially milk soap.


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## narnia (Jan 5, 2016)

Arimara said:


> That's great to hear. I personally HATE their Naoh lye (those super small beads are of the debil!! :evil but they are a good price. You should have got some beef tallow from them too. I really like theirs- little smell (it's a little meaty and very creamy to me) and nicely priced. Beef tallow is LOVELY in soap, especially milk soap.



I joined their fyi101 membership, so I am getting some free samples of EOs and other goodies.  There are promo codes to use....one per order, so it tirns out better in some cases to place separate orders, so yeah...thanks!  I may try some tallow from them.  Is it better than the one from Soaper's Choice?

I bought a tub of lard from Walmart yesterday to give it a whirl.  I think my anti-lard stance is breaking down.  Palm oil from Soaper's Choice arriving tomorrow.  A friend is coming over on Thursday and we will be having girl's day in!  Soaping!!  : )  We will try a batch with lard and a batch with Palm and compare the diff!


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## Arimara (Jan 5, 2016)

narnia said:


> I joined their fyi101 membership, so I am getting some free samples of EOs and other goodies.  There are promo codes to use....one per order, so it tirns out better in some cases to place separate orders, so yeah...thanks!  I may try some tallow from them.  Is it better than the one from Soaper's Choice?
> 
> I bought a tub of lard from Walmart yesterday to give it a whirl.  I think my anti-lard stance is breaking down.  Palm oil from Soaper's Choice arriving tomorrow.  A friend is coming over on Thursday and we will be having girl's day in!  Soaping!!  : )  We will try a batch with lard and a batch with Palm and compare the diff!



No clue about Soaper's choice. I never ordered since I don't need 50lbs of tallow. This is my hobby until I muster up enough will to finish my scarf and make a car blanket for my kid.


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## kchaystack (Jan 6, 2016)

Arimara said:


> No clue about Soaper's choice. I never ordered since I don't need 50lbs of tallow. This is my hobby until I muster up enough will to finish my scarf and make a car blanket for my kid.



Soaper's Choice has 7lb containers of tallow, you do not have to get the 50lb block.

I order from SC because it is a state away.  If I order early enough, I get it within a day, and shipping is pretty cheap. This of course all depends on where you are - if you are closer to FL than you are IL, then ED might be better for you.

ED on the other hand - I have heard too much about bad customer service, and their shipping is alot more expensive and takes longer to get to me.  Plus they have that super annoying spokesperson who spreads all kinds of bad info.  

As for the difference between lard and palm, I can not tell the difference in the final product.   My palm recipe seems to trace quicker than lard, but I have been able to swirl away using either.  

As in all things to do with soap, individual experience will vary.


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## Arimara (Jan 6, 2016)

kchaystack said:


> Soaper's Choice has 7lb containers of tallow, you do not have to get the 50lb block.
> 
> I order from SC because it is a state away.  If I order early enough, I get it within a day, and shipping is pretty cheap. This of course all depends on where you are - if you are closer to FL than you are IL, then ED might be better for you.
> 
> ...



Even 7lbs is way too much. Thanks though.


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## narnia (Jan 6, 2016)

kchaystack said:


> Soaper's Choice has 7lb containers of tallow, you do not have to get the 50lb block.
> 
> I order from SC because it is a state away.  If I order early enough, I get it within a day, and shipping is pretty cheap. This of course all depends on where you are - if you are closer to FL than you are IL, then ED might be better for you.
> 
> ...



What company is in SC?

And who is the ED spokesperson that you are referring to that gives bad info?  The blonde lady who makes / sells soap and also teaches soap making on Youtube or the "voice" on "soaping 101" videos?

It will be interesting for us to see what our observations are between lard and palm when we conduct our experiments tomorrow!


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## kchaystack (Jan 6, 2016)

SC is Soaper's Choice.  

No, Cathy McGinnis is the voice of soaping 101, and I have a lot of respect for her.  

Yes, again, everyone has a different experience with soap, so it will be nice to hear what you think.


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