# What on earth happened to my second batch of soap.



## MapRef41N93W (Apr 16, 2016)

Hey friends,

I ventured into my first soapmaking these past two days. Yesterday I made a batch of cleaning soap (80% coconut/20% soybean) that turned out absolutely perfect. 

Here's a picture:






Today however something catastrophic has happened to my soap. This time I was making my first batch of body soap (65% pomace olive/25% coconut/10% castor). I made it the exact same way, heated my oils till all melted and slightly warm, cooked my KoH with the glycerin till dissolved and heated, poured it in and stick blended, but the soap took a totally different turn then my other soap. Rather than tracing into a nice foamy gel, it turned into what I can only describe as pudding. 

Here's what it looks like:





It pretty much never looked like traced soap no matter how much I stick blended/whisked. After almost two hours it is still not hard, where as my first soap was completely hard gel after 40 minutes. 

I tested the batch with anthocyanin liquid and it came with a weird result as well:






It appears to just be the color of the soap? I assume that means its neutral? My batch yesterday started dark blue and ended up being light blue after it sat for 40 minutes. 

Anyone have any idea what happened here and if this is fixable? This was run through summer bea meadow soap calc before being made. Nothing was added all to the mix other than the oils (3% superfat) and KoH/glycerin mixture which were weighted in their heating vessels to be as accurate as possible. 

Thanks


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## Kamahido (Apr 17, 2016)

There appears to be an error with the pictures. I wish I could see them.


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## MapRef41N93W (Apr 17, 2016)

That's weird. I can see them on my end. Originally I had the wrong links but I fixed them afterwards. 

Here are direct links:
Picture 1: http://s22.postimg.org/y3iwk5es0/IMG_20160416_230038_1.jpg
Picture 2: http://s22.postimg.org/dxfel9j4g/IMG_20160416_230016_2.jpg
Picture 3: http://s22.postimg.org/59xltifww/IMG_20160416_230528_1.jpg


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## cmzaha (Apr 17, 2016)

Kamahido said:


> There appears to be an error with the pictures. I wish I could see them.


Right click on it and open image in another tab


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 17, 2016)

Doesn't help users on the mobile apps, though [emoji30]

To the op - did it zap? Regardless of strips or drops or spirit medium predictions, whether or not a soap zaps is always going to be asked in these sorts of situations


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## MapRef41N93W (Apr 17, 2016)

I dont zap test. Risking permanent damage to my tongue doesn't seem like a very smart idea to me. Even if it's an incredibly low chance. I mean it's an incredibly low chance that I would actually splash KoH into my eyes as well, but that doesn't mean I am not going to wear goggles when handling it. Anthocyanins are always accuracte as long as you boiled/blended/etc. them in distilled water.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 17, 2016)

You could also look at the bulk of soapers for some indication of what is reasonable or not - pretty much everyone uses goggles and gloves and most people zap test. Zap testing, when done with at least a modicum of common sense, it's very safe. 

But anyway, I hope you get to the bottom of this issue


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## Susie (Apr 17, 2016)

Pudding is trace.  Not every liquid soap recipe looks like every other one, or even goes through all the stages.  Even the same exact recipe can give different results if made from separate bottles of the exact same brands of every ingredient.  Why is one of the great mysteries of soaping. 

If you absolutely must not do the one and only safe/not safe test out there, buy a good pH meter that can be calibrated.  But it still can't tell you if your soap is done or safe, as it can't tell you what pH your soap *should* be.  Also, there are lots of us that zap test every batch of soap we make.  And have not incurred permanent injury to our tongues yet.  Or any "injury" other than a very brief zap.  I have no clue how the idea of risking injury to yourself by zap testing got started, or why folks would think that millions of people around the world for thousands of years would be injuring themselves by testing the soap they made.  

I would love to see your proof of this in the use of testing soap, please,* "Anthocyanins are always accuracte as long as you boiled/blended/etc. them in distilled water."*

Your brownish paste is closer to what liquid soap should look like.  You overheated your glycerin, but that does not affect whether it is good soap or not.  Amber is the normal color of liquid soap.  I have no idea how you got blue.

Please go read this thread, as it is loaded with good info on making liquid soap: 

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114


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## MapRef41N93W (Apr 17, 2016)

Susie said:


> Pudding is trace.  Not every liquid soap recipe looks like every other one, or even goes through all the stages.  Even the same exact recipe can give different results if made from separate bottles of the exact same brands of every ingredient.  Why is one of the great mysteries of soaping.
> 
> If you absolutely must not do the one and only safe/not safe test out there, buy a good pH meter that can be calibrated.  But it still can't tell you if your soap is done or safe, as it can't tell you what pH your soap *should* be.  Also, there are lots of us that zap test every batch of soap we make.  And have not incurred permanent injury to our tongues yet.  Or any "injury" other than a very brief zap.  I have no clue how the idea of risking injury to yourself by zap testing got started, or why folks would think that millions of people around the world for thousands of years would be injuring themselves by testing the soap they made.
> 
> ...



So I need proof that science works the way that it does? I think you should probably read up on what anthocyanins are yourself before calling someone out like that. And I never said that my soap turned out blue. I said it turned blue after testing with anthocyanins which indicates a PH of 8-9 as you can clearly see here http://www.coolscience.org/CoolScience/Teachers/Activities/CabbageJuice.htm

My inital soap turned out amber as can be seen in the first picture.

If there's undissolved lye in your soap you would basically be instantly giving yourself a third degree chemical burn on your tongue which would be permanent. It's a tiny chance but as I said earlier so is splashing KoH onto your face unless you are literally mixing the KoH like an idiot so it splashes. It's absolutely pointless when soap can easily be tested with a simple solution of boiled red cabbage/cauliflower/apples etc. which will tell you exactly what PH your soap is.

And that's the end of that discussion. This thread is only for discussing what happened to this batch of soap. Anymore talk on whether or not I should lick my soap I will consider trolling and just ignore.


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## Susie (Apr 17, 2016)

MapRef41N93W said:


> Hey friends,
> 
> I ventured into my first soapmaking these past two days. Yesterday I made a batch of cleaning soap (80% coconut/20% soybean) that turned out absolutely perfect.
> 
> ...



I conveniently indicated the portion of your post that led me to believe that your soap turned blue for you.



MapRef41N93W said:


> So I need proof that science works the way that it does? I think you should probably read up on what anthocyanins are yourself before calling someone out like that.
> 
> And I never said that my soap turned out blue. I said it turned blue after testing with anthocyanins which indicates a PH of 8-9 as you can clearly see here http://www.coolscience.org/CoolScience/Teachers/Activities/CabbageJuice.htm



I said this, "I would love to see your proof of this in the use of testing *soap*, please, "Anthocyanins are always accuracte as long as you boiled/blended/etc. them in distilled water."  I will stand by that statement.  The barest minimum of research on this forum or the internet would have shown you 3-4 methods of testing for the safety of soap.  Anthocyanins are not considered a valid testing method for soap.  




MapRef41N93W said:


> If there's undissolved lye in your soap you would basically be instantly giving yourself a third degree chemical burn on your tongue which would be permanent. It's a tiny chance but as I said earlier so is splashing KoH onto your face unless you are literally mixing the KoH like an idiot so it splashes. It's absolutely pointless when soap can easily be tested with a simple solution of boiled red cabbage/cauliflower/apples etc. which will tell you exactly what PH your soap is.
> 
> And that's the end of that discussion. This thread is only for discussing what happened to this batch of soap. Anymore talk on whether or not I should lick my soap I will consider trolling and just ignore.



You can ignore all of my advice.  You can even block me so you won't see anything I post.  I don't really care.  But I will not sit back and let your bad "science" lead someone else to think that what you are saying is correct.  

I truly do not understand people who come ask for help and answers and then do not want to listen.  ESPECIALLY when they could have done a tiny bit of research to avoid asking the questions in the first place.


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## MapRef41N93W (Apr 17, 2016)

Susie said:


> I conveniently indicated the portion of your post that led me to believe that your soap turned blue for you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you would have read the post more carefully rather than making an assumption that everyone else is an idiot you would clearly see where it says 

"I tested the batch with anthocyanin liquid and it came with a weird result as well:" And then has a picture of the soap with a drop of anthocyanin in it. Then where I talk about how the soap I made yesterday tested started dark blue and tested light blue after 40 minutes of sitting. 

Anthocyanins are a far more accurate testing method than sticking soap onto your tongue. I mean unless you have a PH meter literally on your tongue. I can actually tell what PH my soap is within a small range rather than just knowing that it's under a dangerous PH level. Their is very little difference in using anthocyanins than using PhenlP for testing soap PH. Anthocynanins are actually used by professional in various different industries to gauge PH. 

As far as the rest of your post. It's pure rubbish. I will be putting you on block list because you have little to add and are mostly here to bash other users because you have an attitude problem.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 17, 2016)

MapRef41N93W said:


> If you would have read the post more carefully rather than making an assumption that everyone else is an idiot you would clearly see where it says
> 
> "I tested the batch with anthocyanin liquid and it came with a weird result as well:" And then has a picture of the soap with a drop of anthocyanin in it. Then where I talk about how the soap I made yesterday tested started dark blue and tested light blue after 40 minutes of sitting.
> 
> ...



You may well be the biggest nitwit I've ever seen come on here, and you don't know what you are talking about.

Your anthocyanins are useless. Soap is alkaline. Depending on the specific fatty acids and the pKa of their soaps, the pH can vary from less than 10 to more than 11. You have no way of calculating the pH you are looking for, not are your anthocyanins precise enough to tell you whether you've reached it.

Ultimately, the entire pH approach is the dumbest possible way to try and test your soap. All you want to know is if there is excess alkali. If you would like to figure that out scientifically, you only need a modest amount of equipment, and to make some reference solutions, and perform some analytical procedures. I can recommend the best book on the subject. In fact I was an editor for it.

Or you can touch the soap to your fool tongue which is the one other way to get the answer.

Better yet, if your judgement is so terrible that you would block Susie, who gave you perfect advice and is one of the top people here to help you, please block me too. Even better, buzz off because pretty soon nobody is going to want to deal with you.


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## Susie (Apr 17, 2016)

OP-I am going to give you another piece of good advice that you are not going to read, and therefore not going to follow, but perhaps a newbie will be saved some mistakes:  Read the thread I linked.  Then read all the other information in the stickies section of the liquid and cream soap forum.  Then read all the other threads in that forum that have the word "Help" in the title, or the first couple of sentences.  That way you get to know what more than one person's opinions are.


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## amd (Apr 17, 2016)

Susie said:


> OP-I am going to give you another piece of good advice that you are not going to read, and therefore not going to follow, but perhaps a newbie will be saved some mistakes:  Read the thread I linked.  Then read all the other information in the stickies section of the liquid and cream soap forum.  Then read all the other threads in that forum that have the word "Help" in the title, or the first couple of sentences.  That way you get to know what more than one person's opinions are.



And also read the rules on forum etiquette! Op hostility is unwarranted. Susie merely asked OP to provide more information from a source. If OP has information from a reliable source it is a great chance to educate all of us - one of the main reasons this forum is so amazing. 

I have made hot process soap and shave soap and the only time I have ever been left with a burn was the first time when I foolishly licked hot soap. Zap test is just a zap test.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 17, 2016)

In many things, in life in general and also on here, we should either be correct or willing to admit that we are wrong. If we are are wrong and not willing to admit that we are wrong, we come over as foolish and can also react in a way where people then no longer care to spend their time helping us. 

I've had to eat so much crow in my time here that I've got endless recipes to share!


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## Barbsbreakingbath (Apr 17, 2016)

*Just a thought*

I'm a total newb- I've made 2 whole batches of soap so please bear with me- it's kind of a thought I'm throwing out there- maybe it's my beginner status, but I'm squeamish about the tongue test too. Some beginning books on soapmaking recommend against it also. I understand nobody's asking you to French kiss it, . But I've been reading Ms Gales book on GMP's because I would like to sell lotions one day.
Wouldn't it make sense to write down somewhere that you tested the ph of your soap on X date, and here's the number? If you ever plan to sell your soap or even give it away, and God forbid somebody has a reaction, it seems like it would be better to be able to document the ph than to say "I tested it with my tongue and it didn't zap me" or I boiled up a bunch of cabbage water and it didn't change color"? I understand ph testing strips aren't always reliable, but you could do the zap test as a back up. Even if it's just for yourself, it might be good as a reference?
That being said, I don't thank it's a great idea to ask for help, then get in an argument with the people who are nice enough to take your time to try to help you. I know that I'll mess up one day(probably soon), and hopefully the forum will be there for me.


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## Susie (Apr 17, 2016)

Barbsbreakingbath said:


> I understand ph testing strips aren't always reliable, but you could do the zap test as a back up. Even if it's just for yourself, it might be good as a reference?
> 
> I know that I'll mess up one day(probably soon), and hopefully the forum will be there for me.



Hi, we're always here for those willing to learn.  

It's not that pH strips aren't always reliable, it is that they are so rarely reliable.  You have to buy the expensive ones, not the paper ones to start with, then you have to dilute the soap properly, then you have to understand that you are going to get different readings on the sides of the bar/paste blob than in the center.  See what I mean?  And then it is still not going to tell you if the soap is safe.  There is no magical number that indicates whether there is unused lye in the soap.  Which is what you need to know.

Since this is the liquid soap forum, I will go ahead and explain that folks who sell their liquid soap DO need to know the pH.  Because some preservatives must only be used at certain pH levels.  Those folks use pH meters, or proper strips and technique.  But they are only getting those numbers to test for preservative use.  Not to see if the soap is safe, or "done" in this case.


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## Navaria (Apr 17, 2016)

Tone and inflection are non existent in text. One simply cannot read the spirit in which something was said. We are a no nonsense group. There are so many posts, so many questions, and such little time in the day that some need/want to get straight to the point. This can unintentionally come across as brisk. I myself had the same situation a while back. Instead of getting defensive, I simply sent to poster a pm and asked about it. It was not meant in the manner I took it and all was well. Sometimes we have to give the benefit of the doubt. 
Now on to the post. I'm glad you got it figured out. Scales can be the devil to soaping.


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## cmzaha (Apr 17, 2016)

#1 soap is not neutral it will fall apart and separate with liquid. You were more interested in teaching us how to test our soap and not use tongue test so we would all assume you have a good scale with no weighing issues. We cannot see every step that was done. When things go south with the consistency of soap usually the first thought is scale errors. But as mentioned before, side by side batches can for different ls soap paste differences. A change in heat can affect it, different bottles of oil, etc. Many factors come into play when making soap. Heck I have had side by side batches, everything exact and they will trace differently. 

There a folks in here that have been making soap for  20+ years using zap for testing with no issues. I am a relative baby in the industry with approx 7 years under my belt, thousands of batches and also LS. I will mention one BAD soap I, even sent to a customer, was one I tested with "good" ph strips  was not my recipe but from a well known soaper and teacher of soaping. It was probably the only soap I had not tested on myself and was appalled. Immediately I contacted the customer and told her to throw it in the trash and I replaced her soap with 3x's soaps I knew were good. Fortunately she was a repeat customer and just figured something had gone wrong. The soap was 3 months old and when I zap tested it, it zapped. I will certainly not trust cabbage. Bar soap can still zap up to 72 hrs, soap paste is cooked until not zap or if I use a cool method I just let the paste sit for a few days. Cloudiness in LS free fats, which will usually seperate out and settle, so the superfat was to high. I still -10 superfat with my ls and never had it zap. I have zap tested 1000's of soap and yep been zapped at times and my tongue is still intact...


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