# May-day; the wrong Lye



## Zeepmaker (Feb 21, 2016)

Hi all
I’m a complete newbie in soap making. Had prepared myself for a batch of Castile soap in the cold proces. After mixing oils and lye i discovered my supplier had sent potassium hydroxide instead of Sodium hydroxide. It was my daughter who pointer this out when my mixture did not go in trace, only run custard.
I used 200gr coconut oil 76degree, 800 gr olive oil, and according soapcalc: 380 gr water and used (i thought)140gram of sodium hydroxide which turned out to be Potassium hydroxide.
I mixed oils and lye at 43C/110F.
After discovering having the wrong lye i did leave my mix in the double boiler for about an hour and the temperature went up to about 60C/140F. The mixture did separate so I took the stick blender and manages to get it into a sticky paste. 
After wards I did put it in the airing cupboard for about 24 hours now at a temp of more or less 30C/86F
This soap was meant for for personal use as well insecticidal soap to kill aphid and other little bugs in my fruit trees.
My questions are?
Is this soft sticky usable in a rebatch.
The stuff smell like grandmothers soft soap called groene/green zeep/soap
is there any thing i can do with it.
suggestions for a book to help me out.
As a newbie I thought to start with CP soap and now i landed in a liquid soap making process.
I see if can attach two pics. with the result
Thanks for your attention and help


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2016)

Your soap needs more KOH by weight to make a proper soap. Right now it has too much fat in it to be usable. 

Do you know the purity of the KOH that you are using? That is important to know first.


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## BWsoaps (Feb 21, 2016)

Never heard of Potassium hydroxide but wiki says this...

Potassium hydroxide is an inorganic compound with the formula KOH, and is commonly called caustic potash.

Along with sodium hydroxide (NaOH), this colorless solid is a prototypical strong base. It has many industrial and niche applications; most applications exploit its reactivity toward acids and its corrosive nature. An estimated 700,000 to 800,000 tonnes were produced in 2005. Approximately 100 times more NaOH than KOH is produced annually.[9] KOH is noteworthy as the precursor to most soft and liquid soaps as well as numerous potassium-containing chemicals.

As for the soap you made the best place for that is in the bin.

Get a refund and order the proper stuff and start again!


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## cmzaha (Feb 21, 2016)

Potassium Hydroxide is used for liquid soap. You, could figure out how much additional KOH required to make it into a usable soap batter. I wonder DeeAnna if she could dilute this down for using as an outside spray. Just thinking...


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## Misschief (Feb 21, 2016)

You would need 214.7 grams in total of the potassium hydroxide to saponify those oils at 5% SF. That would be to make a liquid soap paste, not a hard bar of soap.

I have been trying to make groene zeep for a while now. Does it really smell like the real groene zeep?? I understand that groene zeep used to be made from hemp oil.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2016)

There is so much extra fat in the current "soap" that I don't think it would work well for any typical purpose, although I can't say for sure about the insecticidal soap use. The conversion from NaOH to KOH is this:

KOH weight = NaOH weight X 1.403

So Zeepmaker's soap has only about 70% of the lye needed to saponify the fats. That's a rough number, but no matter -- that is a LOT of superfat.

Edit: This can make a lovely liquid soap, by the way. It can easily be fixed by saponifying the extra fat with more KOH and water. It will be good to know the KOH purity to calculate a more accurate answer.


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## topofmurrayhill (Feb 21, 2016)

You can't know the KOH purity without testing it, but the product we buy from reputable suppliers has about 10% residual moisture so we calculate based on 90% purity.


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## kittensmom (Feb 21, 2016)

Think of your first batch as homemade bread with bad yeast.   Don't get discouraged and just think of the mother/daughter story you just created.   The one about a funny mistake and not giving up!!!


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## Zeepmaker (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks for the quick replies.
see a pict of the KOH tub. I guess it is 85% pure???? 
Quote " KOH weight = NaOH weight X 1.403" would i need  KOH weight = NaOH weight X 1.403 :85*100
Yes it definitely smells like soft groene zeep as sold in Holland. But i serious doubt if they realy use hemp oil as it was not very wide spread grown in Holland or the EU. (but maybe i'm wrong) over the last decades.


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## topofmurrayhill (Feb 21, 2016)

Zeepmaker said:


> Thanks for the quick replies.
> see a pict of the KOH tub. I guess it is 85% pure????
> Quote " KOH weight = NaOH weight X 1.403" would i need  KOH weight = NaOH weight X 1.403 :85*100
> Yes it definitely smells like soft groene zeep as sold in Holland. But i serious doubt if they realy use hemp oil as it was not very wide spread grown in Holland or the EU. (but maybe i'm wrong) over the last decades.



Yes it's 85-90% pure, most of the impurity being water. You can't really get better than 90% purity, give or take a few points. You must keep it tightly closed because it absorbs moisture very quickly.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2016)

"... KOH weight = NaOH weight X 1.403 :85*100..."

Yes, that's basically it, but just to be thorough, I ran this through my personal soap recipe calc to double check the numbers. To summarize the actual recipe you made:

coconut oil ... 200 g
olive ... 800 g
water ... 380 g
KOH ... 140 g at 85% purity

I set up a new recipe with the same weights of coconut oil and olive. I chose 3% superfat and 25% lye concentration -- these are typical settings for a liquid soap. This new recipe:

coconut oil ... 200 g
olive ... 800 g
water ... 696 g
KOH ... 232 g at 85% purity

Since you already used 380 g water, you need to add 696-380 = 316 g water

Since you already used 140 g KOH, then you should add 232-140 = 92 g KOH

Mix the additional KOH and water together until the KOH is dissolved. Gently stir the lye solution into your soap paste until everything is well mixed. It will probably heat up. If I was making this soap, I would cover the soap well once it is well mixed, put it in a safe place out of reach of pets and children, and let it saponify overnight or longer. Carefully check for zap ( http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30690 ). If it is zap free, the soap paste is done.

You can either store the soap as this thick paste or dilute part or all of it with distilled water. To dilute, follow the instructions in either of these tutorials:

No-neutralization Liquid Soap Tutorials:
Irish Lass: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=428988 see posts 8 and 9
and: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974
Susie: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Others may have suggestions or corrections that may be helpful.


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## penelopejane (Feb 21, 2016)

Can I just add for your future soaping adventures that Castile Soap is 100% Olive oil of the oil used.  No added coconut oil. 

What you were trying to make is sometimes called Bastile Soap.


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## SparksnFlash (Feb 21, 2016)

DeeAnna, I don't know how you have time to do your own soap making.  You are a gem.  I notice every time someone has a soapy mishap, you find a way to save the day.  :angel:  It makes my heart happy that there are people like you that are so wonderfully giving.


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## Susie (Feb 21, 2016)

DeeAnna is wonderful!

This should make lovely liquid soap once it is properly saponified.  You did well for not panicking and throwing it away!


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## Steve85569 (Feb 21, 2016)

Gini said:


> DeeAnna, I don't know how you have time to do your own soap making.  You are a gem.  I notice every time someone has a soapy mishap, you find a way to save the day.  :angel:  It makes my heart happy that there are people like you that are so wonderfully giving.



Never underestimate a soap maker with an engineering degree and a slide rule.:mrgreen:
She does save the day AND is a very good teacher. Learn at your own pace.


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## Arimara (Feb 21, 2016)

Steve85569 said:


> Never underestimate a soap maker with an engineering degree and a slide rule.:mrgreen:
> She does save the day AND is a very good teacher. Learn at your own pace.



Agreed. :mrgreen:


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2016)

Thanks, all! I appreciate the support. I don't always take the right tack with some people and that gets me in trouble sometimes, but I'm glad I can help most people most of the time. It's an outlet for the frustrated teacher in me. 

Susie -- would you agree with the basic method I suggested of blending in the lye solution and letting it saponify at room temp? I was thinking the soap that has already been made at this point would emulsify the lye solution and the unsaponified fat. I was hoping you would give your opinion. 

Zeepmaker -- I hope you are willing to try this -- I hope we haven't scared you off!

And BWsoaps -- I challenge you to give liquid soap a try too. :mrgreen:

Steve -- I took the very last slide rule methods class they ever taught at Iowa State University. I still have that honkin' big Versalog somewhere, but I doubt I could use it anymore. I remember all the guy engineering students wearing their slide rules in long leather cases swinging from their belts. A kind of badge of engineering nerd-dom.


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## Steve85569 (Feb 22, 2016)

DeeAnna,
I had a prof that could beat us in statics and dynamics with his SlideRule :shock:. We had scientific calculators. It was never in question who was teaching whom.:Kitten Love:


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## Susie (Feb 22, 2016)

I absolutely would mix the KOH/water with the paste.  I might do it with some heat so as to speed things up a bit, but that is my impatience talking.  I was wondering what superfat you figured that at, but was too sleepy to figure it out just then.

ETA- And apparently too sleepy to read it properly, as you state it in there.  

Yes, that is how much KOH and water to use.  That method is what I would if I could get that paste to take it without heat.  If I did not add it with heat, I might wait a few days to zap test just in case. 

I will repeat myself, though.  This will make some lovely hand washing soap or paste.  I would not use it for laundry, dishes, or aphids as it does have some superfat that you don't want on clothes, dishes, or plants.

If I were making liquid soap for laundry, dishes, or plants, I would probably make 100% CO soap with 0% superfat.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2016)

Thanks, Susie! I can see your point about adding some heat to get the saponification going again a little quicker.

Steve --


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## Zeepmaker (Feb 22, 2016)

Hi DeeAnna and others
Thanks for your support
Just another question


DeeAnna said:


> "... KOH weight = NaOH weight X 1.403 :85*100..."
> 
> Yes, that's basically it, but just to be thorough, I ran this through my personal soap recipe calc to double check the numbers. To summarize the actual recipe you made:
> 
> ...



I did use NaOH 140gr while you write KOH 140 gr. Will this make difference??



DeeAnna said:


> "I set up a new recipe with the same weights of coconut oil and olive. I chose 3% superfat and 25% lye concentration -- these are typical settings for a liquid soap. This new recipe:
> 
> coconut oil ... 200 g
> olive ... 800 g
> ...



I defenatly will give at go tonight to see if i can rescue my soap. And jump in the pool of liquid soap making.

What i could find online is that casle soap is not realy well defined and loads of people add what ever veg oil with the olive oil.
What i found with soapcalc that adding a bit of coconut oil would give a reasonable bar of soap.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2016)

For ease of use here, Castile means 100% OO.  Bastille is a high OO soap.  While other places may well use Castile for a soap made with only plant-based oils, here that can just be called "soap" and includes soap with no olive oil!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2016)

In your original post -- "... and used (i thought)140gram of sodium hydroxide which turned out to be Potassium hydroxide..."
In your last post -- "...I did use NaOH 140gr while you write KOH 140 gr. Will this make difference??..."

According to my understanding of your original post, you used 140 grams of KOH. You _THOUGHT_ it was NaOH, but it was actually KOH. Am I correct in this perception or did I misunderstand?

If I am correct that the 140 grams was KOH, then I just rewrote the recipe to show what you actually did, not what you thought you did. If I am misinformed in that the 140 grams was truly NaOH, then we need to re-think this problem.

***

You and Amimara are both right ... but each of you is right (or at least more correct) in different contexts.

Castile as used in a commercial sense is any soap made with only vegetable oils. It may not have even a drop of olive oil in it. This has been the commonly accepted definition in the consumer world since the early 1800s. There is at least one fairly famous USA court case that supports this definition. (James S. Kirk & Co. v. Federal Trade Commission, 1932)

That said, the purist's pre-1800s definition of castile is that it is a 100% olive oil soap. Many modern-day soapers use "castile" in this more specific sense, and that is usually the meaning intended when castile is discussed here.

This situation with castile is a little like Americans saying "Bandaid" to mean any adhesive bandage (sticking plaster?) or "Kleenex" to mean any facial tissue.


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## Zeepmaker (Feb 22, 2016)

Thanks again.


DeeAnna said:


> In your original post -- "... and used (i thought)140gram of sodium hydroxide which turned out to be Potassium hydroxide..."
> In your last post -- "...I did use NaOH 140gr while you write KOH 140 gr. Will this make difference??..."



 your absolute right with the 140gr KOH. Thanks for being that sharp.

Thanks for the Castile soap explanation.

I will tweak a little with the KOH to make a 0% superfat as Susie pointed out

cheers Nic


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## shunt2011 (Feb 22, 2016)

Zeepmaker said:


> Thanks again.
> 
> 
> your absolute right with the 140gr KOH. Thanks for being that sharp.
> ...


 
Please read her post again. You don't want a 0% SF.  You want a 3% SF.  Then you will have a nice hand soap.  0 would be a bit too cleansing.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2016)

Susie was talking about a 100% coconut oil for a household cleaning soap. If you made that kind of recipe for that purpose, you would want a zero superfat. 

Your olive-CO soap will be best for bathing and hand washing. For this type of liquid soap, Shari (shunt) is right -- use a positive superfat. 

A maximum of 3% superfat works well for most people. If your superfat is higher, the excess fats may separate from the diluted soap.


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## cmzaha (Feb 22, 2016)

Susie said:


> I absolutely would mix the KOH/water with the paste.  I might do it with some heat so as to speed things up a bit, but that is my impatience talking.  I was wondering what superfat you figured that at, but was too sleepy to figure it out just then.
> 
> ETA- And apparently too sleepy to read it properly, as you state it in there.
> 
> ...


Neem Oil is used on plants for pest control so I would not think the amount of unsaponified oil would hurt a plant. It could be tested on a small area. Not saying what we used it for but they were plants you did not want to kill. I also toss my buckets of water, from washing my soaping utensils, which would still include some over over the bank and even the white flies we used to fight are gone


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## Zeepmaker (Feb 22, 2016)

*update on wrong lye*

Just finished mixing the new lye in the existing mix.
Went really fine. Took about ten minutes though a bit hard work. It mixed nicely into a creamy custard with a nice golden\greenish color. No need for extra heat. mixture was about 30C while mixing. mix is now standing in the airing cupboard temp 34C I will leave it there for at least the night  and coming day zo the oils can saponate  thoroughly.  
Have problems uploading pics. from my phone to show the result.
keep you posted.


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## Zeepmaker (Feb 24, 2016)

*Failed the zap test, Question about insecticidal soap*



DeeAnna said:


> "I set up a new recipe with the same weights of coconut oil and olive. I chose 3% superfat and 25% lye concentration -- these are typical settings for a liquid soap. This new recipe:
> 
> coconut oil ... 200 g
> olive ... 800 g
> ...



Followed this recipe.
Paste has been standing now for about 48 hours and has failed the zap test now twice. It defenatly tastes after 9 volt battery, maybe even a higher voltage!
A possible problem could be I'm using a scale from 0-100 grams and by using bigger quantities i have to weigh a 100gr every time and add this to bowl for mixing. (see first picture)

As i was trigger happy and forgotten about the zap test i already diluted a small batch 1 paste : 0.75 water see result (2nd picture)

I guess I beter don't use this Liquid!

any suggestions how to proceed.
Leave it for a while?
Heating again for a while?

I think I'm  learning it the hard way:crazy:. My next batch LS will be with glycerin and KOH

*About Insecticidal soap*
By the way Susie if you are reading this post do you have any suggestions on which oils of fats to use for a insecticidal soap. A lot of internet sites (which probably repeat each other) suggest Castile= olive oil becaus of it softnes. Can you think of think of cheaper oils which would do the same trick.

Wikipedia is writing:
_*Insecticidal soap should be based on long-chain fatty acids (10–18 carbon atoms),[1] because shorter-chain fatty acids tend to be damaging for the plant (phytotoxicity).
*_*
Table 1. Omega-3 and Omega-6 Fatty Acids* *Long-chain
            PUFAs* *Name* *Abbr.* *Structure* *Food Source#* *
Omega-3* 
alpha-linolenic acid ALA  18:3n-3 
Walnuts, flaxseed oil,soybean, and canola oil 
*Omega-6* 
linoleic acid LA 18:2n-6 
Corn, safflower, soybean,cottonseed, and sunflower oils 

I found this table some where on the net which lists a lot of long chain fatty acid oils/fat. 

Any one able to give an idea which solo oil/fat or mixed oils/fats would make a nice LS.

Thanks again for all your support I have got until now.


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## topofmurrayhill (Feb 24, 2016)

Zeepmaker said:


> Followed this recipe.
> Paste has been standing now for about 48 hours and has failed the zap test now twice. It defenatly tastes after 9 volt battery, maybe even a higher voltage!
> A possible problem could be I'm using a scale from 0-100 grams and by using bigger quantities i have to weigh a 100gr every time and add this to bowl for mixing. (see first picture)
> 
> ...



You could try getting it a little hot. My concern about this plan was that your KOH was probably stronger than 85%. Normally you would assume the higher potency to be safe. If the KOH was more like the typical 10% moisture, then there is really no superfat in the formula.

On the other hand, it can't be that far off and you might still be able to get it to neutralize on its own. If not, you can add something to neutralize it. No need to give up.


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## Zeepmaker (Feb 25, 2016)

Thanks I'll put the paste in the  airing cupboard 37-40 Celsius for while and will check once in a while.


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## Susie (Feb 25, 2016)

I used my 100% coconut oil soap.  Leave it on a couple of hours, then rinse off with plain water (lots of plain water).  The side benefit of using soap to kill the aphids is that it makes the soil under the plant extra permeable to water.  So that the roots get a really good drink rather than the water pooling and running off.


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## Zeepmaker (Feb 25, 2016)

Thanks Susie for sharing your experience. 
I've put several oils through the Soapcalc calculator and conclude for myself all oils with long chain fatty acids are very conditioning and little cleansing. Coconut is a tough cleanser and nice bubly.
Wat I'm gonna do is make different batches of oils from: Sunflower, Canola, Olive (got already a little stack waiting to pass the zapp test), Tallow (i've got some waiting fot being transformed to soap) and Coconut.
I will mix some of the LS from different oils together according the weather condition of the day.
As I live in what they call: South We(s)t England I'm having more problems with to much wet in the summer than to dry (like Texas)


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## Soapmaker145 (Feb 25, 2016)

Zeepmaker said:


> *About Insecticidal soap*
> By the way Susie if you are reading this post do you have any suggestions on which oils of fats to use for a insecticidal soap. A lot of internet sites (which probably repeat each other) suggest Castile= olive oil becaus of it softnes. Can you think of think of cheaper oils which would do the same trick.



Not Susie but FWIW, I've been using the LS I made with tallow/soybean oil for my insecticidal soap.  I add a bit of neem oil to it.  It is about as cheap as it gets.  I spray all my indoor plants including the bay laurel, Kaffir lime, and loquat trees, various herbs and galangal among others.  We use many of them for food.  So far, none of them was adversely affected.  

If you are dealing with aphids on outdoor plants, buy some ladybugs.  They'll clean them out in no time.

Before I made LS, I used store bought insecticidal soap, then I made my own using store bought castile soap.  The LS I make is practically free in comparison.


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## Zeepmaker (Feb 26, 2016)

Hi Soapmaker 145
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Yes making my own LS insecticidal soap is a lot cheaper £2,00 versus £10.00
What I forgot to tell that the early aphid attacks come early in the season. The trees have very little developing leaves and very tender in this stage. The early aphid attack cause very quick a lot of damage in reducing photosynthesis activity with long lasting negative effect for the tree for the whole growing season and years beyond as I work with rootstocks, grafting,etc.That is why I need a soft soap. 
Later in the season I would dare to spray a strong cleansing soap as the leaves have hardened enough to with stand strong soap.
I like the lady bugs, soap does not harm ladybugs BUT temperatures are low in British spring season The low 50F to  59 F  and if we are lucky a day of 68F once in five years.
Lady bugs need higher temperatures to multiply because the young lady bug larvae are the very hungry consumers of the aphids.
I will add for sure a little essential oil, every little helps.


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## Soapmaker145 (Feb 26, 2016)

Zeepmaker said:


> Hi Soapmaker 145
> Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
> Yes making my own LS insecticidal soap is a lot cheaper £2,00 versus £10.00
> What I forgot to tell that the early aphid attacks come early in the season. The trees have very little developing leaves and very tender in this stage. The early aphid attack cause very quick a lot of damage in reducing photosynthesis activity with long lasting negative effect for the tree for the whole growing season and years beyond as I work with rootstocks, grafting,etc.That is why I need a soft soap.
> ...



Here are few things that I found helpful from my limited experience:
-Delay fertilizing the plants in the spring until you have some leaves on the plant.  It will limit the tasty food that aphids like.  Even a 2 week delay will help.  If you have a horticultural expert near you, they can help you with the timing.  
-Spray the trees with water with a little pressure.  The spray of water alone will get them off the leaves and they die.  They are soft bodied and get hurt easily.  It will help you control the infestation.  Once the leaves are a little bigger, you can add the soap and the neem, increasing concentrations as you go.
-Get the ladybugs out as soon as you can.  Adult ladybugs are voracious eaters.  Each eats 1000's of aphids a day.  They will clean up what is left and minimize next year's infestation.  The larvae are just icing on the cake.  A few years of ladybugs and you'll hardly see any more aphids.  
-Tallow, soybean, or any other cheap oil work great. They have the longer chain fatty acids.  The potassium salts are the ones you want.  Your mistake was a lucky one.

I used to pay $30 every time I sprayed my garden.  I would have to spray several times in the spring.  $30 worth of my liquid soap will last me a lifetime.

Keep in mind I have a postage stamp sized garden in a big city that I keep chemical free.  It is packed with a lot of edible fruits and vegetables.  The aphids used to hit the currant bushes in early spring really badly and spread everywhere causing a lot of damage.  Two years of ladybugs and we barely notice them now.  I still get some aphids but only on the upper leaves of the currant bushes.  I spray or wipe them with the soap/neem solution once or twice.  The resident ladybugs take care of the rest.  HTH.


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## Zeepmaker (Nov 24, 2017)

Dear all.
Took a while to come back. 

It took my soap about THREE month!!! to pass the zap test. This batch will soon be finished and I'm preparing my self now to make a new batch of LS 80% olive oil-20% coconut oil


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## DeeAnna (Nov 25, 2017)

Good grief -- that took a long time! You are a very patient person! I am glad it finally turned out well. It looks like your KOH has a higher purity than what we assumed.

Sometimes a person has to learn by doing. It seems this was one of those times.


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