# High cleansing numbers



## Katie-Mae (Mar 18, 2014)

HI,

I have been playing around on Soapcal. trying to come up with a recipe with no coconut oil or one using under 10% coconut oil.
  everything I have calculated seems to have very high cleansing numbers 
I am wondering wouldn't that be drying as well? I have never paid a lot of attention to the cleansing numbers in my recipes most usually stay around 12 to 15 but I am coming up with numbers like 27 and 28 with the lower coconut percentage.
  Maybe because I am trying to add extras to bump up the lather?


  Me and my sister are super sensitive to coconut oil and although I have made soap for a few years and started selling it about a year ago I have never tried to make a specific soap for my dry itchy sensitive skin until now
My originally started making soaps because I have migraines that are brought on by fragrances so I am not able to use perfumes and hair products or air fresheners so I began research on making my own cleaners and soaps and became addicted lol

Anyway any suggestions on a coconut oil free soap that actually lathers would be greatly appreciated! : )


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## AustinStraight (Mar 18, 2014)

Try substituting palm kernel oil!  I'm gonna order some soon to see how I like it because it's cheaper than coconut oil and very similar.  I think it has slightly lower hardness and cleansing values.  Castor oil is very good for a thick, stable lather.  Soaping101 has a bastille soap recipe with coconut oil, olive oil, and castor oil.  If you're trying to avoid coconut oil, you could replace all or most of the coconut oil with palm kernel oil.

UPDATE:

I re-calculated the soaping101 bastille recipe and replaced the coconut with palm kernel oil.  Here is the new recipe with palm kernel oil:

2 oz castor oil
8 oz palm kernel oil
22 oz olive oil
4.41 oz lye
10.56 oz distilled water
Superfatted at 5%

The recipe with palm kernel oil is only very slightly different: it has 30 hardness instead of 31, 16 cleansing instead of 17, and 67 conditioning instead of 65.


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## Lin (Mar 18, 2014)

Just wanted to say fragrances are also a migraine trigger for me. I can't stand the detergent isle at the store. Do you soap with fragrances? I'm wanting to get a respirator so I could use fragrance oils, and EOs that aren't scents I specifically like for sales. 

I was at whole foods today and had forgotten my lip balm so I went down the soap/lotion/etc isle and picked up a hand balm tester to put some on (I have an obsessive habit to pick and bite skin off my lips, so they were painfully raw) and all the scents were killer. I could not get out fast enough.


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## Obsidian (Mar 18, 2014)

Palm kernel oil is a great substitute for coconut oil, I use it in all my recipes except for salt bars. Palm kernel makes a high cleansing, drying soap much like coconut. Unfortunately, a soap with lots of bubbles will have a high cleansing number. You can use castor at max 10% to increase lather, 1 tsp sugar PPO will also help lather.
Soap with low lather will still clean you so don't stress too much over the numbers, they are more of a guideline anyways.


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 18, 2014)

Lin said:


> Just wanted to say fragrances are also a migraine trigger for me. I can't stand the detergent isle at the store. Do you soap with fragrances? I'm wanting to get a respirator so I could use fragrance oils, and EOs that aren't scents I specifically like for sales.
> 
> I was at whole foods today and had forgotten my lip balm so I went down the soap/lotion/etc isle and picked up a hand balm tester to put some on (I have an obsessive habit to pick and bite skin off my lips, so they were painfully raw) and all the scents were killer. I could not get out fast enough.


Yes I started using fragrances when I found the brambleberry website and HAD to try the recipes I use a mask when I use fragrances and I have learned real quick what fragrances are going to be bad before I even open them! Sometime I will get a fragrance that is killer even with a mask I just try to walk away to get a breath and work fast! sounds crazy I know Lol
  I keep all my oils in plastic containers with lids and in a pantry in a spare room and I cure my soaps in the very back room of my house and keep the doors shut! 
  I no longer do our shopping because I cannot stand the detergent isle or the isle with the cleaners. I started making my own laundry detergant because my sheets would give me a migraine at night and I would find myself changing shirts through the day because I could smell the detergent!


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## AustinStraight (Mar 18, 2014)

Speaking of high cleansing numbers, I hear pure coconut oil soap with a 1% superfat makes great laundry soap ;-)


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 18, 2014)

AustinStraight said:


> Try substituting palm kernel oil!  I'm gonna order some soon to see how I like it because it's cheaper than coconut oil and very similar.  I think it has slightly lower hardness and cleansing values.  Castor oil is very good for a thick, stable lather.  Soaping101 has a bastille soap recipe with coconut oil, olive oil, and castor oil.  If you're trying to avoid coconut oil, you could replace all or most of the coconut oil with palm kernel oil.
> 
> UPDATE:
> 
> ...


I have palm kernel flakes that's what I was using earlier in the soapcal. along with regular palm oil. I will have to run your recipe through soapcal with my palm kernel flakes : )
  I have been using babassu oil in place of half the coconut in my recent recipes but I am still so dry and itchy I almost cant stand it. I will wash with my soap for 1 or 2 night then I have to use a store bough soap to get a little moisture and I have been trying to eliminate store bought chemical packed soaps and cleaners from my home.


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 18, 2014)

So if Palm kernel is drying like coconut oil is there really a point in subbing it for the coconut oil? I was thinking maybe a mix of palm oil and palm kernel oil or palm kernel flakes  but that's when I started getting those high cleaning number which would strip all the oils from your body so either way my soap is drying.:-(


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 18, 2014)

AustinStraight said:


> Speaking of high cleansing numbers, I hear pure coconut oil soap with a 1% superfat makes great laundry soap ;-)


I have heard the same right now Im making the liquid soap by grating my old melt and pour soaps I made ages ago that got shoved in a closet LOL
  Cooking it in water and adding washing soda and borax have been wanting to make some with my left over lye soaps if I can.
  Have you made any? : )


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## AustinStraight (Mar 18, 2014)

If you're really worried about it being too drying, you could increase the superfat to 7%.  Don't change palm kernel to palm kernel flakes if you run it through soapcalc again, palm kernel oil and palm kernel flakes are the same thing besides the shape.  The "palm kernel flakes" in soapcalc are hydrogenated palm kernel flakes - different from regular palm kernel flakes, which are really just little flakes of palm kernel oil.  Non-flaked palm kernel oil comes in a big hard block that's near-impossible to cut so it's recommended to get the flakes.  Unless, of course, your palm kernel flakes are hydrogenated - in which case, ignore my rambling :smile:

As long as you have a superfat, the soap won't exactly strip *all* the oil from your body.  There's always a little bit left.  You said you were sensitive to coconut oil & I thought you meant you had a coconut allergy, which is why I recommended subbing it for palm kernel oil.  Either way, using palm kernel oil will help cut the cost 

My mom makes her own laundry soap using that same recipe, soap flakes + washing soda + borax!  She got some soap nuts today to test out.  She's been using Kirk's soap though, not homemade coconut soap.


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## cmzaha (Mar 18, 2014)

Katie-Mae said:


> HI,
> 
> I have been playing around on Soapcal. trying to come up with a recipe with no coconut oil or one using under 10% coconut oil.
> everything I have calculated seems to have very high cleansing numbers
> ...


 
I am a tad confused. If you are onl using 10% coconut oil you would not have high cleansing numbers unless you are using PKO or Babassu, which are both very similiar to CO as far as cleansing.  I have a recipe I make that has 9 for cleansing, 14 bubbly, 27 creamy. I add in sugar to boost bubbles. It is a soap I only superfat at 1% or to me it feels oily and does not rinse clean, in my opinion. But it is a really nice gentle soap not at all drying. You will certainly have a trade-off when it comes to gentle versus high bubbly lather. I am doing some more test batches to see if the high superfat (lol, to me 5% is high), affects lather. I know my test olive oil soap with a -30 superfat lathers great after a month of curing and is not zappy


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 19, 2014)

I haven't made any soap yet with the 10% coconut that's kinda why I was asking questions I was using soapcalc trying to come up with something but yes I put in babassu oil and palm kernel as well as Palm oil trying to come up with something.
  I always super fat between 5 and 6  I am with you those are high to me but the more reading I do about the drying 
I am experiencing it seems everyone suggested super fatting at high levels 7% and above!

I have been using babassu for 1/2 of my coconut in my recent recipes but my coconut oils are still between 15 and 20%
  I can tell a bit of a difference between my soap with 15% coconut versus the 20% but I have never used PKO that's why I thought I might calculate a recipe with PKO, babassu and 10% coconut.

Another thing I have been thinking is maybe Crisco?


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## Obsidian (Mar 19, 2014)

There is no reason to use PKO, babassu and coconut, they are very similar to each other and do about the same thing. Simplify it and only use one, see if that works. Even if you do use all three, you want to stay at 20% max, even combined. If you use 15% coconut and 15% babassu, its no wonder your soap is drying. Personally, I would try 15% PKO and leave out the co and babassu, see if maybe that would be better for you. 

I'm one who always uses a higher superfat, at least 8%. If my soap has a cleansing number above 15, I will SF at 10%. I even tried 25% Sf once but it was too much, left me feeling not so clean.


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## engblom (Mar 19, 2014)

Check out this answer I wrote earlier about cleansing values: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=409979&postcount=10

The cleansing value at soapcalc.net is not telling much at all. Also soapcalc.net does not show all fatty acids. For example coconut oil is having 13% higly cleansing fatty acids not even mentioned at soapcalc.net. With their own flawed way of calculating the cleansing value, coconut would have 80 and not 67.


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 19, 2014)

OK well I started doing the 1/2 coconut and 1/2 babassu because through all my reading and research I had found a site where one woman said if her recipe called for say 10oz coconut oil she used 5oz coconut and 5oz babassu and her reason for doing so was because the coconut was making her skin really dry and itchy so I figured I would give it a try.
  I have been making a lot of beer soap and milk soaps lately most of them are still curing but I did test one last week that didn't dry me out as bad and lathered pretty good and it was 1/2 coconut oil and 1/2 babassu oil and I also used coco butter which I have gotten to like way more than shea butter for some reason.
 I used no fragrance or colors except rose clay and use coconut milk and it was a bar that hardened really fast I only made a tiny batch to sell at the craft fair coming up now Im wishing I had made more : )


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## osso (Mar 19, 2014)

Agree with upping the SF if you find the coconut drying. I usually do 7-9%.


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## Obsidian (Mar 19, 2014)

If you have a coconut sensitivity, you should just replace it altogether. I'm not sensitive to coconut oil and use salt bars almost exclusivly but I could really tell a difference in my regular soap when I replaced the CO with palm kernel. Its seems less drying even though the cleansing numbers are similar.

I may have misunderstood your post when you said you replaced half you coconut with babassu. I understood it to be you were using 15-20% coconut oil and 15-20% babassu, that is a lot of cleansing power.

If you have really dry skin, try and drop the cleansing number down to 10-13 and SF a bit higher then you normally do.


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## engblom (Mar 19, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> If you have a coconut sensitivity, you should just replace it altogether. I'm not sensitive to coconut oil and use salt bars almost exclusivly but I could really tell a difference in my regular soap when I replaced the CO with palm kernel. Its seems less drying even though the cleansing numbers are similar.
> 
> I may have misunderstood your post when you said you replaced half you coconut with babassu. I understood it to be you were using 15-20% coconut oil and 15-20% babassu, that is a lot of cleansing power.
> 
> If you have really dry skin, try and drop the cleansing number down to 10-13 and SF a bit higher then you normally do.



The difference between CO and PKO is that CO is having more Capric and Caprylic fatty acids which are even stronger than what Lauric and Myristic are at cleansing. Here I have the values from soapcalc and then Caprylic + Capric added to the value of soapcalc:

Coconut Oil: 67%+13% = 80% highly cleansing fatty acids
Palm Kernel Oil 65%+6% = 71% higlhy cleansing fatty acids

When you substitute CO for PKO, you get less bubbles too as those highly cleansing fatty acids provides bubbles also.

PKO is not the same as CO. Instead of substituting, you could just sligthly decrease the amount of CO and it would behave very similar to PKO.


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 19, 2014)

OK well now with all the suggestions I have a million ideas going on in my head.
 I will be dreaming about soap recipes and keeping myself up at night LOL

I think I will try upping my super fat first and see how that goes since I still have a new bucket of coconut oil haha.

Thank you to everyone for all the suggestions and new ideas.


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## Jeanea (Mar 20, 2014)

Katie-Mae said:


> So if Palm kernel is drying like coconut oil is there really a point in subbing it for the coconut oil? I was thinking maybe a mix of palm oil and palm kernel oil or palm kernel flakes  but that's when I started getting those high cleaning number which would strip all the oils from your body so either way my soap is drying.:-(



I was working on a recipe the other day and found that palm kernel flakes had a cleaning values of 90, pko and co was much less.


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## Obsidian (Mar 20, 2014)

Jeanea said:


> I was working on a recipe the other day and found that palm kernel flakes had a cleaning values of 90, pko and co was much less.



You should check the numbers again. On soapcalc.net, palm kernel flakes are 66, palm kernel oil 65 and coconut oil 67.



> Originally Posted by *Katie-Mae*
> 
> 
> _So if Palm kernel is drying like  coconut oil is there really a point in subbing it for the coconut oil? I  was thinking maybe a mix of palm oil and palm kernel oil or palm kernel  flakes  but that's when I started getting those high cleaning number  which would strip all the oils from your body so either way my soap is  drying.
> ...


Because you said you are sensitive to coconut, that means you need to replace it. If a soap is simply too cleansing, thats not the same as having a sensitivity.

I'm really curious to see the recipe you came up with that has such high cleansing numbers. I use 20% palm kernel and my cleansing number is 13.


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## judymoody (Mar 20, 2014)

OK, having read this thread, I have some questions?

Are you and your sister sensitive to coconut oil specifically do soaps with high cleansing numbers dry you out, regardless?

Let's assume you are senstive to coconut oil.  If so, eliminate it entirely and try PKO in its place.  Make your recipe as usual, let it cure, and then compare to the coconut oil one.  If you react similarly, then it's not coconut oil per se but the high cleansing.

IMO, babassu is nice but not nice enough to justify the upcharge in CP soap (I do use it in leave on products).  I use PKO as a coconut substitute.

My current recipe has coconut oil OR palm kernel oil at 30% with a 9% superfat and it has 19 for cleansing,  bubbly/creamy numbers between 25-30 and conditioning at 54.  It works well for my dry skin in my dry climate.  Yet it is cleansing enough for my husband and passes the "clean stinky armpits test".

5% SF makes me a bit itchy, even with CO as low as 15%.  You might also try your normal recipe but double the superfat to 10% and see what happens.


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## goteeguy (Mar 20, 2014)

It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.  Lots of bubbles, but low cleansing don't really go hand-in-hand.  It's a bit more of a balancing act.

I typically soap with 20% Coconut Oil which produces a cleansing number of 13 (or 14 depending on the recipe).  At 8% super-fat, I find this still produced good bubbles, while not being too cleansing.

If you're willing to reduce the bubbles, you can even try substituting tallow or lard (if you don't mind using animal fats).  These will still add to the firmness of the bar, but produce a more creamy lather.  If you're not happy with the bubbles, try using a cloth or pouffe to lather up in the shower - they really do help.

I don't recall if you posted your full recipe in this thread, but it may help people offer further suggestions if you did.  Hope this helps!

Cheers!


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## Jeanea (Mar 21, 2014)

Jeanea said:


> I was working on a recipe the other day and found that palm kernel flakes had a cleaning values of 90, pko and co was much less.



Sorry about this, that was my hard value...I was going for a hard bar with low cleaning....it was not easy


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 24, 2014)

I Assume its a sensitivity Since I have made a ton of soaps ranging anywhere from 25% coconut to 15% and still have the VERY itchy skin after showering.
  I say it is dry itchy skin but Im not really as dry as the itchiness make me feel.
If that makes sense? I mean I claw myself in areas till I draw blood and my sister does the same. When I lay down at night it is more of a burning itchy feel its miserable! : (

I have not yet made the soap I originally posted about as I had said I was playing around with Soapcal trying to come up with one with 10% coconut and got the high cleaning numbers.


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## Sinful7 (Mar 24, 2014)

Just a thought you may be having a small allergic reaction to coconut or even a different oil. If it makes you scratch until you bleed I would say that is not a normal reaction. Maybe try one without any coconut. also How long are you curing your bars before use?


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 24, 2014)

goteeguy said:


> It sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.  Lots of bubbles, but low cleansing don't really go hand-in-hand.  It's a bit more of a balancing act.
> 
> I typically soap with 20% Coconut Oil which produces a cleansing number of 13 (or 14 depending on the recipe).  At 8% super-fat, I find this still produced good bubbles, while not being too cleansing.
> 
> ...


I do not have to have HUGE bubbles I would like a creamy lather atleast I mean I do want to see a few bubbles here and there is possible. Lol
  I have a soap that don't lather at all unless I put it in a soap pouch it is new I have only used it 4 times now but it seems to be the only one so far that don't make me miserable. 
  They are soap bars that I was actually disappointed with because there was no lather (go figure)

As for lard and tallow I don't prefer to use them and have a few vegan and vegetarian family members so I stay away from that as much as possible.
 I usually make 1 goat milk soap for the one craft fair I do 4 times a year and there and a few goat milk lotions but that's about it.

I have been wondering about Crisco any ideas or suggestions on that?


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## Sinful7 (Mar 24, 2014)

Also what FO or EO's are being used and in what amounts?


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## Sinful7 (Mar 24, 2014)

Lmao sorry reading this on my phone. Perhaps if I read the ENTIRE thread I'd find those answers.


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 24, 2014)

Sinful7 said:


> Just a thought you may be having a small allergic reaction to coconut or even a different oil. If it makes you scratch until you bleed I would say that is not a normal reaction. Maybe try one without any coconut. also How long are you curing your bars before use?


I cure them anywhere from 6 weeks to 12 weeks but I always have left overs from the craft fair that get thrown in a box until I decide to give them away or use them so I have some that are a year old that still do the same.
  I had been thinking allergy because my WHOLE family have allergies to every fruit and nut know to man! but I use coconut oil for cooking although it is small amounts maybe 1/2 to 1 tbs at a time so I'm not sure if that would be it.
 I can say I cannot eat raw coconut due to allergies so that's what got me to thinking maybe an allergy.
  I run a full time business(not soap related) and give my employees and customers soap and none of them have said anything about them being drying or making them itch.
  My house keeper thinks all the soaps I give her are Awesome LOL


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 24, 2014)

Sinful7 said:


> Lmao sorry reading this on my phone. Perhaps if I read the ENTIRE thread I'd find those answers.


LOL its fine I have used different FO and EO But I made an unscented one not long ago that I thought was awesome but 30 minutes to an hour after my shower I still Itched it didn't seem AS bad and it was the one I was using the most it had 18% Coconut oil BUT I used coconut milk also.
  But I have been using babassu along with my coconut oil because I stumbled on a page where someone had said she used half coconut and half babassu so I thought I would try that.

And as far as the FO & EO I use them in my lotions and bath salts and scubs & they don't bother me so it is definitely an ingredient in the soap.


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## Katie-Mae (Mar 24, 2014)

judymoody said:


> OK, having read this thread, I have some questions?
> 
> Are you and your sister sensitive to coconut oil specifically do soaps with high cleansing numbers dry you out, regardless?
> 
> ...


LOL well I'm glad the soap passed the arm pit test.
  My husband refuses to use any soap that don't make a really big bubbly lather and they ALL have to contain coffee grounds. Let me sneak a left over soap of any kind and I have to listen to him cry about it Until I give in and make him his COFFEE soap.  MEN!!

So would you say even if I replaced the coconut oil completely with Palm Kernal not to even use the Babassu?
 I guess I have let that one person saying she had good results using Babassu stick in my head and am determine I need it. :-|


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## grayceworks (Mar 25, 2014)

If you are allergic to eating coconut, you may very well be reacting to the coconut oil in the soap. Some allergic people can use it if it's completely saponified, but some people can't -- and since your soap has a 7% SF, not all of your oil is saponified, so you have raw coconut oil. 

If it was simply dry skin, you might notice tightness and some itchiness, but the itchiness you're describing is either severe eczema or an allergic reaction.

ETA-- If you are allergic to coconut oil, keep an eye out for sensitivities to other 'nut' oils, (even though coconuts are not really nuts, they are the seeds of the coconut palm) even palm KERNEL oil, which is sortof related. It's going to be trial and error though. You might do a couple small batches, one replacing all coconut with all pko, and another doing the same with babassu, and see how your skin reacts.


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