# Soap Making with NaHCO3



## maria6

Hello!

This is my first post in the forum, so hello to everyone, very pleased to meet you all! I am new in Soap making, but very eager to learn everything about it.
So, I will start my saponification process using extra virgin olive oil, coconut oil and *NaHCO3* instead of NaOH.
Will the soap be of good quality using NaHCO3?
I know that during the saponification process with NaOH the Na+ ion bonds with the oil producing soap, while the OH- ion produces glycerin.
But what happens chemically if I use NaHCO3? Will there be no glycerin? And what happens to HCO3- ion in the mixture of the reaction?

Thank you very much for your help!

Maria.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

NaHCO3 is sodium bicarbonate, otherwise know as baking soda . the reason that NaOH , sodium hydroxide/lye , is used is because of its catalyst reaction to the oils/fats that gives birth to soap/a salt. baking soda does not give you "soap"


----------



## maria6

Thank you for the reply, Lion!

I know a friend of mine, who was using baking soda to make soap. His soap was quite of good quality. So, you say, that it is impossible to form soap using baking soda?


----------



## shunt2011

Yes, it's impossible to make soap using baking soda.  You must use Sodium Hydroxide or you will not get soap.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

He might have been using it as part of the process, but not as the lye.  Can you get a full process list and recipe from him for us?


----------



## LBussy

If I might side-track a little bit:  What about the carbonates impacts the process? Always wondered that.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

maria6 said:


> Thank you for the reply, Lion!
> 
> I know a friend of mine, who was using baking soda to make soap.
> His soap was quite of good quality.
> So, you say, that it is impossible to form soap using baking soda?



if i were you i would double check with him because its not possible . he could be using it as an additive within the soap.
the high heat generated due to the combination of water/liquid and lye is the very thing needed to convert the fats to a salt on a molecular level.


----------



## DeeAnna

Um, guys, yes, it is possible to use sodium bicarb to make soap. It's just not nearly as efficient. I haven't done it personally nor do I have any interest in doing so, but the chemistry is valid.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

See, now I REALLY want to see his process and amounts.  Sounds really interesting - like Lee, I wonder what the chemical and "using" difference is.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

DeeAnna said:


> Um, guys, yes, it is possible to use sodium bicarb to make soap. It's just not nearly as efficient. I haven't done it personally nor do I have any interest in doing so, but the chemistry is valid.



DeeAnna i wish that you could see the big smile on my face reading your response .why you ask? , because i am about to learn something  . love your responses . if there is anyway to further enlighten me/us about it please do not hesitate to present the science.

so Maria6 i owe you an apology for i was totally unaware of the possibility ....... i will talk with other seasoned soap makers about it and put forth any information i find .


----------



## KatieShephard

DeeAnna said:


> Um, guys, yes, it is possible to use sodium bicarb to make soap. It's just not nearly as efficient. I haven't done it personally nor do I have any interest in doing so, but the chemistry is valid.



Well this sounds totally awesome!  Yes...bring on the science!  (Not like I'll understand any of it, but it will be cool anyway  )


----------



## Seawolfe

This is the thread that I remember discussing such a thing  - basically the premise said that you needed to mix calcium carbonate (lime) with washing soda (sodium carbonate) and then probably an exothermic reaction with lots of fumes and you should get lye (NAOH) in water, and chalk. Then you make the soap with the lye.  So why not use lye in the first place?


----------



## LBussy

That seems like a roundabout way ... 

But I do have soaps which have potassium carbonate listed in addition to the lye. I wonder what that does.


----------



## Ellacho

DeeAnna said:


> Um, guys, yes, it is possible to use sodium bicarb to make soap. It's just not nearly as efficient. I haven't done it personally nor do I have any interest in doing so, but the chemistry is valid.



Wow! Really?  Ms. DeeAnna, I am ready to take notes for our next chemistry tutorial. Thank you !


----------



## Lion Of Judah

i have been searching around , found one link that stated that its possible but that its just a mild alkali and was something that might have been done in early soap making. still searching for the process using it.


----------



## DeeAnna

I'm at work ... and I'm da boss ... so I gots to get back to it. I'll hunt up more info tonight. It's not much, just so's you know, but I'll see what I can find.....


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

You soap with me, you soap with my whole family.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

Been doing some search as well , and what i found so is that its a mild alkali


----------



## shunt2011

_Well, now I'm truly interested in the chemistry of this.  I too apologize for saying it can't be done.  I've always been told no lye no soap.  I am now curious on their process for kicks as I have no intention of trying this.  _


----------



## DeeAnna

Okay, so here's more...

The word "saponification" is often used to describe the chemical reaction that makes soap, but soap making is just one form of saponification. Saponification by a strict definition is any chemical reaction that splits a triglyceride (fat) into its component parts -- three fatty acid molecules and a glycerin molecule. Many chemicals are able to saponify, not just the strong bases (aka NaOH and KOH) that we modern soapers use to make soap. 

Even water can be used to break up the triglyceride molecules and begin the process of saponifying fats. This breakdown of fats by water happens all the time -- this is one of the methods by which fats become rancid. The water breaks the fatty acids away from the glycerin, then the fatty acids continue to break down into stinky aldehydes and ketones. These are the chemicals that cause that nose wrinkling "rancid odor" most of us have smelled at one time or another. 

The problems with breaking down fats with water are that (1) the initial reaction of water with the fat doesn't acually make soap (you have to add an alkali such as NaOH to finish the job) and (2) it is really, really slow unless you add heat and or pressure. Think about the short-lived fats like hemp -- its shelf life is about 6 months or so, but that is a loooong time to wait if you were hoping to get soap as the end product! So for our purposes, breaking down fats with water is not very useful except to teach a lesson about keeping your fats dry and cool to reduce the development of rancidity.

So ... moving on to more useful methods of making soap. 

The oldest form of intentional soap making used a "ley" (a very old word for "lye") made from the ashes of certain marine or seacoast plants. These ashes contain high levels of potassium carbonate with some sodium carbonate. Natron was also used as a cheaper but less satisfactory alternative to the ashes. This is a mined product that is a mixture of soda ash (sodium carbonate, Na2CO3), sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), and other chemicals. Natron is one of the materials used by the Egyptians for mummification. edit-- The ashes of inland plants can also be used to make ley/lye, but the amount of sodium carbonate is lower, so the lye from these plants makes a softer soap compared to lye from marine/seacoast plants. The ashes from hardwood are preferred for soapmaking purposes, for what it's worth. --end edit

In the simplest form, the ashes were mixed with water and allowed to slowly steep, much like tea. Some of the potassium carbonate and sodium carbonate from the ashes dissolved in the water. Some of these carbonates reacted with the water to transform into potassium hydroxide (KOH) and some sodium hydroxide (NaOH). This mixed hydroxide and carbonate ley was then mixed with fat, then heated and stirred until it formed a crude paste soap. Some of the carbonates in this soap batter would have reacted with the free fatty acids roaming around in the fats, but some of the carbonates would have remained intact as contaminants in the soap.

In a refinement of this process, the ashes were not used directly to make soap. They were first mixed with water and slaked lime (calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2). The chemical reaction of the ashes with the lime formed a pure, stronger ley of liquid potassium hydroxide and some sodium hydroxide, mixed with particles of calcium carbonate (CaCO3). The calcium carbonate particles were removed from the lye solution and the resulting clear ley was used to make a soft paste soap. People found out that adding plain salt to this soft soap would harden it somewhat. The increase in firmness was caused by the sodium in the salt replacing some of the potassium in the soft soap. Not all of the potassium could be replaced, so the resulting soap was firmer, but probably not as hard as the NaOH soap we make nowadays.

Fast forward to my great-grandmother's time. People were still making soap with ashes or lime and ashes, but folks started to use an alternative to ashes -- pure, commercial soda ash (sodium carbonate, Na2CO3). This product is also called washing soda, since it was used by housewives for laundry and general cleaning. One can add slaked lime to soda ash, boil the mixture for a few hours, and let the calcium carbonate particles settle. The resulting clear solution was lye -- sodium hydroxide in water. This could be used to directly make a hard soap. Sometimes this type of recipe is billed as making a "soap without lye", but that's really not very accurate -- it's just that the lye was formed indirectly by boiling the soda ash with lime.

This process was cumbersome and time consuming. When pure lye (NaOH) became commercially available in my grandmother's day, most housewives quickly turned to store-bought lye as a timesaving, simpler, better alternative. (The large soapmakers had had access to pure NaOH for some decades before this time, and these companies had gradually converted over from the soda ash & lime process to using commercial NaOH long before our foremothers were able to do the same.)

So now that brings me to using baking soda (NaHCO3) instead of lye. Yes, it is a mild alkali and, yes, it will create soap, although not as fast nor as efficiently as the much stronger NaOH. The saponification reaction will not be as efficient, and I'm betting the soap batter will have to be heated to force the reaction to go. Carbon dioxide (CO2) gas will be created, so the batter will foam quite a bit (think of your grade-school "volcano" made with vinegar and baking soda). This is similar to what a "wet chemical" fire extinguisher does when it is used on a grease fire in a kitchen -- the extinguisher contains potassium carbonate which reacts with the heat and fat to form a foamy soap. The foam smothers the fire. 

Fat + NaOH => Soap + Glycerin

Fat + NaHCO3 => Soap + Glycerin + CO2

The availability of pure NaOH and KOH ... and more recently the invention of the stick blender ... have been real leaps forward in turning soap making into a fun hobby for many and a realistic small business venture for some. Baking soda is an interesting experiment for some to try, just like leaching ashes to make lye. But I doubt either alternative is a realistic threat to the use of NaOH and KOH.

And with that, I'm heading to bed....


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Wow! Thank you, DeeAnna. That was really interesting to read


----------



## Susie

Thank you!  You rock!


----------



## Ellacho

Thank you DeeAnna! You are awesome!!!!


----------



## coffeetime

Clap! Clap! Thank you DeAnna! How do you find all this info? Is there a history of soapmaking book out there somewhere?


----------



## goji_fries

That is what I needed DeAnna, thank you, wow, wow


----------



## maria6

That was some really interesting information, DeeAnna!
Thanks a lot for sharing!
So, I guess this is the way my friend uses.
I am not sure if he will share his "cooking" methods with me, as he runs his own company, selling the soaps he creates, but I will ask him and see..
I believe I should use NaOH instead in my saponification process taking into account all you guys said.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

{doing my "i am not worthy" mantra } Kudos to you DeeAnna ! you are the Anchor that keeps this forum boat steady , bless you . i love the info , and after reading all the info and thinking of Maria6 friend using NaHCO3 to make soap it caused me to visualize why and how one would want to use this long slow process . in doing so i have a couple questions that jump into mind. is he trying to [re] create that long process that Aleppo and Savon use in their factory to make soap on a small "home" scale ? [i am sure you can do it using other methods ] and 2nd question, what would be the final quality of the soap made using this process? is it a milder soap seeing that its a milder alkali ? 
just thinking out loud .
Kudos to you again and thank you for your diligence DeeAnna
it would be nice to see what more info Maria6 can get out of her friend for its deeply interesting .


----------



## DeeAnna

I woke up and remembered I should have added that the sodium bicarb method will work best to make soap from fatty acids rather than fats. We don't normally use fatty acids directly in handcrafted soap making, although stearic acid is often included in shaving soap recipes (as The Gent well knows!) 

The most difficult step of making soap is splitting the fatty acids away from the glycerin. A strong alkali like KOH or NaOH is going to do that job better than a weak alkali. The second step of actually creating the soap -- in other words, adding a sodium or potassium to each fatty acid -- is the easier part. A weak alkali can do that task just fine. Heck, even salt will work. 

That's not to say that sodium bicarb won't work to make soap from fats, just saying it will be more difficult, compared with making soap from fatty acids.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...is he trying to [re] create that long process that Aleppo and Savon use in their factory to make soap on a small "home" scale ?..."

Nope. The traditional methods of aleppo would use the lime and ash method of making ley/lye. It would be more "traditional" to directly use NaOH or KOH or a blend of both.

As far as the soap being milder, the short answer is another "nope". 

Longer answer: When the sodium bicarb saponification reaction is finished, what is left in the basic soap? Sodium attached to fatty acids, glycerin, and water. That's the same as a soap made with NaOH. The carbonate has turned into carbon dioxide gas and left town, so to speak. So if soap made with sodium bicarb looks pretty much like soap made with NaOH, it will have roughly the same properties of pH, etc.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

DeeAnna said:


> "...is he trying to [re] create that long process that Aleppo and Savon use in their factory to make soap on a small "home" scale ?..."
> 
> Nope. The traditional methods of aleppo would use the lime and ash method of making ley/lye. It would be more "traditional" to directly use NaOH or KOH or a blend of both.
> 
> As far as the soap being milder, the short answer is another "nope".
> 
> Longer answer: When the sodium bicarb saponification reaction is finished, what is left in the basic soap? Sodium attached to fatty acids, glycerin, and water. That's the same as a soap made with NaOH. The carbonate has turned into carbon dioxide gas and left town, so to speak. So if soap made with sodium bicarb looks pretty much like soap made with NaOH, it will have roughly the same properties of pH, etc.



thank you so much for your swift reply DeeAnna , you have made this a great day of learning for me [ i try to learn something every day no matter what it is ] which i enjoy immensely . all of this has been interesting .


----------



## DeeAnna

"...Is there a history of soapmaking book out there somewhere?..."

I suppose there may well be, but I haven't come across it. Most of my info about historical soapmaking methods comes from reading books and articles of the day and piecing bits 'n pieces of information into a whole. It can be confusing and I don't always get it right ... my understanding is evolving too ... but it's interesting to learn and fun to share with y'all.


----------



## goji_fries

DeeAnna said:


> "...Is there a history of soapmaking book out there somewhere?..."
> 
> I suppose there may well be, but I haven't come across it. Most of my info about historical soapmaking methods comes from reading books and articles of the day and piecing bits 'n pieces of information into a whole. It can be confusing and I don't always get it right ... my understanding is evolving too ... but it's interesting to learn and fun to share with y'all.




Oh man DeeAnna, I have a pdf of about 400 pages of ancient recipes up until about 1940. If I find it, I'll try to find a link so you guys can have a copy. If I forget remind me.


----------



## DeeAnna

Would love to see that one, Goji! Thanks for thinking of it....


----------



## goji_fries

DeeAnna said:


> Would love to see that one, Goji! Thanks for thinking of it....



I have another one somewhere shwoing you how to make acids/oils from cheeses and how to crack citric acid into grape scents. It was a score. In fact I am going to look for it right now.:mrgreen:


----------



## Dahila

DeeAnna Thank you for the explantation, you made my time at work (while waiting for the bills) so much pleasurable.  Thank you


----------



## goji_fries

Still looking for 3 of them pdfs. Posted a few about EO chemistry and such.


----------



## maria6

So, I assume that the pH level of the NaHCO3 created soap should be lower than soaps made using NaOH.
My friend's soaps are quite of a good quality and nice cleansing and moisturizeing properties.
Of course, I believe that the ingredients he uses play an important factor in this, as Greek extra virgin olive oil is one of the best quality oils that can be found.
Anyway, I will give it a try and see what happens with my batch using NaHCO3 and extra virgin olive oil with some percentage of coconut oil.
I have read that coconut oil can be a very good skin moisturizer if used in proper percentages.
What percentage would you think I should use olive and coconut oil to get a nice cleansing and moisturizing soap?
Eager to hear your opinions, as I see that this forum is full of really experienced and willing to offer their help members.
So lucky to be here with you!


----------



## Lion Of Judah

its not so much the ingredients as the process that has us peaked , because we all use the same oils and butters to varying degrees .... i still think you should try understand the process a little more before trying it with your oils , or do a small batch , say maybe less than a pound . have you used a lye calculator before ? try out a basic recipe with maybe three oils or two oils and a butter. the amount of Nahco3 you will need ppo is what needs to be worked out.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

DeeAnna said:


> ".
> 
> Longer answer: When the sodium bicarb saponification reaction is finished, what is left in the basic soap? Sodium attached to fatty acids, glycerin, and water. That's the same as a soap made with NaOH. The carbonate has turned into carbon dioxide gas and left town, so to speak. So if soap made with sodium bicarb looks pretty much like soap made with NaOH, it will have roughly the same properties of pH, etc.



as stated in DeeAnna answer here it may be a milder alkali but the end results characteristically should be the same ,down to the ph and all after the soap is made.


----------



## LBussy

maria6 said:


> So, I assume that the pH level of the NaHCO3 created soap should be lower than soaps made using NaOH.


As Lion says ... probably not.  It all goes through the same process, the carbonate simply takes longer. 



> My friend's soaps are quite of a good quality and nice cleansing and moisturizeing properties.
> Of course, I believe that the ingredients he uses play an important factor in this, as Greek extra virgin olive oil is one of the best quality oils that can be found.


Don't take this the wrong way but to what are you comparing his soaps?  If you are comparing to commercial soaps then it's apples and volkswagons.  If you are comparing to other artisanal soaps then it's apples and carrots.  If you are comparing the same exact soap made by two different people then it may be a comparison.

Also, EVOO is a marketing thing for OO based soaps.  Pomace leaves a nicer skin feel (I think it may produce more glycerin?) when all is said and done.  At the very least it makes no difference (except for the color of the soap) so unlike in cooking, there's no need for expensive oil.



> What percentage would you think I should use olive and coconut oil to get a nice cleansing and moisturizing soap?


You will probably want to keep CO to no more than 25%. If the balance is made of OO then you are looking at a pretty long cure time.  For your first soap my I suggest something a little easier and quicker?  I've attached a recipe I did recently based on Irish Lass' help.  It was very nice after a 6 week cure. 

View attachment Irish Lass Bar Soap.pdf


----------



## maria6

Thank you very much, LBussy, for the pdf file!
It will be helpful for me.
Of course, I will not create a huge amount of soap at first.
I was thinking about 500-700g for a start.

Aren't hand made soaps supposed to be of better quality than commercial, as you can use no chemicals or colorants and your soap will be 100% natural?
I am confused about this.
I have used hand made all-natural soaps and they are much better than soaps I buy from the stores.

EDIT: Can you recommend a good lye calculator?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

maria6 said:


> ...............Aren't hand made soaps supposed to be of better quality than commercial, as you can use no chemicals or colorants and your soap will be 100% natural?
> I am confused about this.
> I have used hand made all-natural soaps and they are much better than soaps I buy from the stores.


 
Technically hand-made soaps do use chemicals (as everything is a chemical!) and there is no real meaning to the term 100% natural.  While all of the ingredients can be found in nature, they are often made in a factory (such as the lye) and I have seen people selling "All Natural" soap containing fragrence oils which are certainly NOT found in nature.  

But I know what you mean - hand made soap usually has none of the unnatural or more questionable chemicals thrown in there.


----------



## maria6

Of course, I understand that even H2O is a chemical substance.
You got the idea of what I meant. 
Hand made natural soaps are supposed to be made of ingredients found in nature, not chemically created, which may cause undesired effects on the skin.
Usually natural soaps are suitable for most types of skin.


----------



## LBussy

maria6 said:


> Hand made natural soaps are supposed to be made of ingredients found in nature, not chemically created, which may cause undesired effects on the skin.
> Usually natural soaps are suitable for most types of skin.


Hand made soaps are able to express creativity not always possible in commercial soaps.  However a person down the street who hands you a bar of soap is technically held to the same guidelines as a commercial soap maker ... but who's checking?  A home soap maker can put anything they like in their soap and who is responsible for proving they are not harmful let alone good for you?

Another consideration is consistency.  I brew beer for instance and like with beer it's common for people to knock commercial products and assume homemade is always better.  Generally it takes a very advanced brewer to realize that making Budweiser is hard; making Budweiser the same way every time in several different factories is a monumental achievement.  The same is true of the good commercial soaps.

Lastly, natural does not mean not having undesirable effects on the skin.  We use lye; improperly used you can peel the skin off and remove your hair.  We use essential oils many of which are known allergens.  Some of the EO's can foster a bad sunburn if used and then you are exposed to the sun for an extended period.  The best example I can think of representing natural and found in nature yet way less desirable than a commercial bar of soap is poison ivy.  

What you CAN say however is you get to choose what goes in your soap, independant of consumer panels and accountants.  Choose well and you will be rewarded.  Choose poorly and you may still find yourself sensitive to what you put in there.


----------



## DeeAnna

I agree with The Gent and Lee. Well said. Hear, hear, gentlemen!


----------



## El_Granado_Loco

Late personal thanks from me as well, DeeAnna!!! I was very curious about this as I 've seen a lot of articles lately stating you can have soap this way (and didn't believe it either). I suppose it 's appealing as most people are not willing to be exposed to NaOH...


----------



## DeeAnna

It is perfectly accurate to say "you can't make soap without lye". 

What is considered to be a lye can vary, however -- from the strong alkali chemicals like KOH and NaOH to weaker alkalis such as soda ash, pot ash, and sodium bicarbonate. For the regular soaper, the strong alkalis are going to be the most practical because these chemicals can do the job on their own with the aid of a stick blender and perhaps a bit of heat. 

When using the weaker alkalis directly to make soap, a "boiled" soaping process is needed to drive the saponification reaction to completion. It's not at all the same as making a CP or HP soap. There's a reason why our grandmothers switched to NaOH and KOH from the older methods of using soda ash and lime or using wood ashes -- they wanted a clean, straightforward, reliable method of making soap.


----------



## girlishcharm2004

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I have seen people selling "All Natural" soap containing fragrence oils which are certainly NOT found in nature.



Oh my goodness, I hate seeing that!



LBussy said:


> ...a person down the street who hands you a bar of soap is technically held to the same guidelines as a commercial soap maker ... but who's checking?  A home soap maker can put anything they like in their soap and who is responsible for proving they are not harmful let alone good for you?



You'll have to prove me wrong, but I don't believe this is _completely _accurate.  A person who hands you a bar of soap is not selling and is not held to _any_ guidelines as a commercial soap maker.  

That aside, I'm assuming the difference between the commercial soap maker and small-cottage soap maker, is a matter of chemical additives and "natural ingredients" respectively.  In that case, they still wouldn't be held to the same guidelines because once a detergent is thrown into a soap, it's now a cosmetic. 
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceRegulation/LawsRegulations/ucm074201.htm#Soap

Anyhow, it sounds like the original poster has personally experienced detrimental effects of synthetic "soap", and prefers real soap (granted, that it be made well).  No need to nitpick the choice of words, "all natural".


----------



## LBussy

girlishcharm2004 said:


> You'll have to prove me wrong, but I don't believe this is _completely _accurate.  A person who hands you a bar of soap is not selling and is not held to _any_ guidelines as a commercial soap maker.


You might give a read to the theory of "Common Law."  If you give something to someone that causes them harm and you are found to not have exercised reasonable precautions (those found by case law to be reasonable) then you may be held liable.  Just because you are not subject to casual inspection by the FDA or the CPSC does not mean that you are not held (or could not be held) to the same standards once you give it to someone else.

In cases such as this where we are talking about natural vs not, you are talking about a civil case where one would have to prove an actual loss.  Since you are giving your soap away the receiver's loss would be negligible.  If however you said it was all natural, then the person has a skin reaction to some unknown "fragrance", then they will have had a "loss" and you could be liable for it.


----------



## girlishcharm2004

LBussy said:


> You might give a read to the theory of "Common Law."  If you give something to someone that causes them harm and you are found to not have exercised reasonable precautions (those found by case law to be reasonable) then you may be held liable.  Just because you are not subject to casual inspection by the FDA or the CPSC does not mean that you are not held (or could not be held) to the same standards once you give it to someone else.
> 
> In cases such as this where we are talking about natural vs not, you are talking about a civil case where one would have to prove an actual loss.  Since you are giving your soap away the receiver's loss would be negligible.  If however you said it was all natural, then the person has a skin reaction to some unknown "fragrance", then they will have had a "loss" and you could be liable for it.



That's interesting about the law.  I will have to look into that.  

Aside from legal technicalities, do you have a better word for "all natural"?  The reason I ask is because I find it difficult to describe something as "being free of synthetic irritants".  For example, I gave some soap to a friend and she told me it was the _only _soap she had tried that relieved her skin issues (detergents and/or fragrance both in laundry and commercial soap were causing her to develop rashes).  Personally, while a "well-made, natural" soap can benefit me and a poorly made soap can harm me, I have _never _experienced _any_ degree of benefit from detergent soaps or "natural" soaps with propylene glycol added (that eliminates all melt and pour soaps). I will only experience varying degrees of rashes and irritation.  Your argument that "natural" things can harm is accurate, but, in my experience, synthetic irritants have _never_ benefited.  I would welcome any terminology because it's a fine line and very difficult to describe.

Also, I have digestive issues due to adulterated foods.  People ask me if I'm gluten-free, lactose-intolerant, etc. but it's hard to explain that as long as it's "real food" (and in the right proportions) then I'm fine.  Nitrites/nitrates cause headaches, pasteurized milk causes upset intestines (as opposed to raw milk which I can drink perfectly fine with benefited nutrition), and GMO foods cause flare-ups with my... reproductive condition.  How do I explain that I just need regular, real food?  People will ask me to make a list for them so they know what to avoid, and the thing is, I can't think up every single "chemical" (for lack of a better word) that will be used as an additive in food -- just use "real" food.

So... that's the dilemma.


----------



## Chefmom

girlishcharm2004 said:


> That's interesting about the law.  I will have to look into that.
> 
> Aside from legal technicalities, do you have a better word for "all natural"?  The reason I ask is because I find it difficult to describe something as "being free of synthetic irritants".  For example, I gave some soap to a friend and she told me it was the _only _soap she had tried that relieved her skin issues (detergents and/or fragrance both in laundry and commercial soap were causing her to develop rashes).  Personally, while a "well-made, natural" soap can benefit me and a poorly made soap can harm me, I have _never _experienced _any_ degree of benefit from detergent soaps or "natural" soaps with propylene glycol added (that eliminates all melt and pour soaps). I will only experience varying degrees of rashes and irritation.  Your argument that "natural" things can harm is accurate, but, in my experience, synthetic irritants have _never_ benefited.  I would welcome any terminology because it's a fine line and very difficult to describe.
> 
> Also, I have digestive issues due to adulterated foods.  People ask me if I'm gluten-free, lactose-intolerant, etc. but it's hard to explain that as long as it's "real food" (and in the right proportions) then I'm fine.  Nitrites/nitrates cause headaches, pasteurized milk causes upset intestines (as opposed to raw milk which I can drink perfectly fine with benefited nutrition), and GMO foods cause flare-ups with my... reproductive condition.  How do I explain that I just need regular, real food?  People will ask me to make a list for them so they know what to avoid, and the thing is, I can't think up every single "chemical" (for lack of a better word) that will be used as an additive in food -- just use "real" food.
> 
> So... that's the dilemma.




I know what you mean!!

I am not allergic to things, not in the usual allergic sense.  I am very sensitive though and can have different reactions to different things.

I use the term "Chemically Sensitive" to describe it, not allergic, but sensitive to a wide range of synthetic items, I think its a better way to describe myself without trying to pinpoint the MANY issues.


----------



## LBussy

I think the best, easiest, most "gotcha" free way to do it is to list the ingredients and just call it soap.  Actually with bath and body soap you don;t even have to list the ingredients (shaving soap you do).  As soon as you claim it has some therapeutic benefit, even if that is avoiding issues form other sources, I think you have entered into the category of cosmetics and drugs and that's a place you should stay away from if you can avoid it.

Have I ever benefitted from synthetic detergents?  Yes.  Chemicals make the world go around and I have a hard time connecting synthetic with bad.  Each have different properties however and I am fully okay with believing some properties are good for some and not for others.  I want to be careful to say I do not dispute what you are saying about your personal sensitivities, I just wonder that these didn't seem to be so prevalent 20 years ago when people were more oblivious to what chemicals were in their foods?  It seems difficult to connect "cooking" and thoroughly emulsifying milk with an upset stomach - can you have a latte?  I dunno.

I am thoroughly happy for you that you found a way to be more comfortable and healthy.  I just wonder what we've done to ourselves to raise a generation of lactose intolerant, peanut butter fearing people?


----------



## goji_fries

LBussy said:


> I think the best, easiest, most "gotcha" free way to do it is to list the ingredients and just call it soap.  Actually with bath and body soap you don;t even have to list the ingredients (shaving soap you do).  As soon as you claim it has some therapeutic benefit, even if that is avoiding issues form other sources, I think you have entered into the category of cosmetics and drugs and that's a place you should stay away from if you can avoid it.
> 
> Have I ever benefitted from synthetic detergents?  Yes.  Chemicals make the world go around and I have a hard time connecting synthetic with bad.  Each have different properties however and I am fully okay with believing some properties are good for some and not for others.  I want to be careful to say I do not dispute what you are saying about your personal sensitivities, I just wonder that these didn't seem to be so prevalent 20 years ago when people were more oblivious to what chemicals were in their foods?  It seems difficult to connect "cooking" and thoroughly emulsifying milk with an upset stomach - can you have a latte?  I dunno.
> 
> I am thoroughly happy for you that you found a way to be more comfortable and healthy.  I just wonder what we've done to ourselves to raise a generation of lactose intolerant, peanut butter fearing people?



Perfect summation


----------



## girlishcharm2004

LBussy said:


> I think the best, easiest, most "gotcha" free way to do it is to list the ingredients and just call it soap.



Sorry, I need to clarify.  It seemed like you had a long post explaining that natural can be bad and synthetic can be good after the original poster said she was looking to make "all natural" soap.  What could she have said differently to get the point across? The Gent seemed to understand what she meant, even though he pointed out that everything is a chemical as well. Could she have said she wants to make "real soap" as it is much better than soaps she buys from the store?  I mean, I'll be honest here, getting a lecture every time one mentions that they are trying avoid "chemicals" is... well, frustrating.  Anyhow, this is a long detour from the original topic.  I'll leave it at that.

As for the milk, I think it's the homogenization that causes my upset stomach.  A friend of mine said she couldn't drink any pasteurized milk that contained fat -- only skim milk.  I tried it and it worked, but it was nasty as heck.  I went through a phase in life where I was constantly breaking bones -- stepped off the porch and broke my foot, bumped into someone and broke my nose, etc.  I was just crumbling.  I went to the doctor for an unrelated issue and got all my blood work done -- ALL of my vitamins and minerals were deficient (while I was drinking pasteurized/homogenized whole milk to the detriment of my stomach).  Also, coincidentally, I had gone to a raw milk presentation that same day as the blood work and began drinking that until my next blood work was taken 8 weeks later.  Lo and behold, all my results were normal.  A life time of pasteurized milk left me deficient, but two months of raw milk caught my health back up.  It's not scientific research by any means, but I haven't broken a bone since and my stomach doesn't hurt.   Annnd, that was way off topic too, but I just wanted to share that.


----------



## LBussy

Off topic is what we DO here.


----------



## mobe_45

Any strong alkali will react to make soap. In Palestine one soap factory still uses baking soda to make their soap the old way. It's a 3 ingredient soap. baking soda, oil, water. Only 500 kilos a day.


----------



## David James

Sounds like Nablus. Or maybe all of the Palestinian soaps are made that way. The swear it is only olive oil, baking soda, water, and a bunch of added heat.

Look here and jump to about the 40 seconds point to get to the recipe:


----------

