# Finding raw ingredients - bit of a rant



## neeners (Aug 11, 2014)

So, I've moved back to Ontario. I want to start soaping again soon (haven't soaped in about 2 months now....feeling the itch, BAD!). I want to test some recipes that will eventually be my base recipes for sale. 

I've taken time to decide I want to have mostly organic ingredients (just oils basically). Issue is, I haven't been able find organic soaping OO for a reasonable price. I can find organic EVOO, but there's just no need for that! Too pricey and fancy for soap!

And, seems like people get their stuff from costco, but I dont live near one nor do I have a membership. 

Because of this, I feel I need to compromise my vision (which I don't really want to do).

So, for those of you who use organic oils, where do you find just plain old organic OO for soap? I'm out of ideas, so looking for inspiration. TIA!!!


----------



## grumpy_owl (Aug 11, 2014)

I feel you, neeners. I go as organic as I can but sometimes you hit a brick wall. I like very light, pale OO for my soaps so I buy big bottles of inexpensive stuff, not local and not organic, because it fit my soap vision. Olives don't grow everywhere and sometimes we have to compromise.
P.S.  I also use FOs instead of EOs sometimes because DANG, they smell great! Chin up and happy soaping.


----------



## neeners (Aug 11, 2014)

thanks grumpy owl.  so far, I will not give up.  when there's a will, there's a way.  I just needed to get my frustration out there to people who would understand.....  I will go forth....and keep looking!


----------



## KristaY (Aug 12, 2014)

Hi neeners! I'm sorry you're having so much trouble finding what you want. I don't know how helpful I can be because I don't know what stores are available to you in Ontario but do you have Whole Foods or Trader Joe's? They may have it. Whole Foods is usually pretty pricey but Trader Joe's has good prices. The only other thing I can think of is a health food store online. Hopefully someone from your area will be along with more specific suggestions. Good luck on your hunt!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 12, 2014)

Out of interest (and I know I will ruffle some feathers here) - is organic important when making soap?  I can understand with eating things, of course, but other than label appeal does it make a difference?  

If not, then maybe review your vision?

If it IS just label appeal, then maybe customer education is important?


----------



## neeners (Aug 12, 2014)

To me, yes it's important. It's not just about the label appeal, but it's about HOW food is farmed. There are enough pesticides and toxic chemicals that are causing enough damage to our world and everything in it. And even with my soaps, I don't want to be supporting a type of agriculture that condones those harmful practices.


----------



## eucalypta (Aug 12, 2014)

grumpy_owl said:


> I feel you, neeners. I go as organic as I can but sometimes you hit a brick wall. *I like very light, pale OO for my soaps so I buy big bottles of inexpensive stuff*, not local and not organic, because it fit my soap vision. Olives don't grow everywhere and sometimes we have to compromise.
> P.S.  I also use FOs instead of EOs sometimes because DANG, they smell great! Chin up and happy soaping.



Lucky you 
Here the price of pomace, traditional and EVOO is the same.
One exception is a very good quality of EVOO of course, which is pricy - and even can sky rocket, just like a selected wine.


----------



## HorseCreek (Aug 12, 2014)

Sadly the "organic" and "natural" labels have become so muddied as to what does and does not constitute those practices. I don't think people realize that when they buy "organic" or "natural" that those terms are loose and can mean lots of things, and the "toxins" they are trying to stay away from may very well actually be present in them.


----------



## HorseCreek (Aug 12, 2014)

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to start an argument. I am a farmer, my husband is a farmer, my dad is a farmer, my father in law is a farmer... what people put on the internet, and reality are very different things sometimes.


----------



## neeners (Aug 12, 2014)

yes, I realize that.  BUT I can't GO to the farm where the oil is made from (nor can I afford to do that) and ask the farmer how much they spray, or be able to purchase direct from the press or farm.  with food however, I am able to chat with the farmer at the farmers market, so I'm very happy buying non-organic, but I do ask if there is spray, if so how much, do they practice organic practices.  

 I just don't want to support poor farming practices.  unfortunately, the only way to get around that is to rely on the organic label, as flawed as it is.  and I agree, what goes on the internet can be anything, but, it's just a personal decision that I want to stick to.


----------



## Dahila (Aug 12, 2014)

Organic is important when you eat, and what you put in lotion on your face, but not in soap.  Organic products are labelled organic when they have at least one of the ingredient organic.  soap sorry but it seems naive to look for organic oils to make a soap.   Saffire blue does cary a lot of organic oils of course the price is high.  I had not seen organic castor oil.  I stopped using organic CO for my lotions I switched to babbasu oil and love it.  It is not organic of course.  New direction aromatics carry some organic raw materials..


----------



## neeners (Aug 12, 2014)

thanks for your input Dahlia, but like I posted earlier, it's a choice for me to have mostly organic ingredients in my soaps (basically oils and liquids, additives and EOs will not be organic as I don't want to charge $10 for a bar of soap), especially now that there is better access than where I was living before. it's not just about wash off product or not, that's not the issue in discussion, it's about me supporting the right kind of farming practices (which I do in life anyway). 

it's just tough that the only real options are to either buy a membership for Costco/sam's club or order online. it's not too many options even though there are some.

as of now, I can get my bars to cost just over $1 per bar, which isn't that bad...  but that's just oils at the moment.


----------



## PuddinAndPeanuts (Aug 12, 2014)

Hmm, everything organic I'm finding is extra virgin. EVERYTHING!


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 12, 2014)

Dahila said:


> Organic is important when you eat, and what you put in lotion on your face, but not in soap..



If it matters to the user or the maker, it's is important.


----------



## wetshavingproducts (Aug 12, 2014)

So, you yourself said it in your last post. Costco membership. It has so many other benefits and is pretty darned cheap. Plus you'd save a lot of money just on the OO itself.

Just wondering though, what farming practices do you want to promote with olives? They're very old trees. Do they even use pesticides or other chemicals on them?


----------



## coffeetime (Aug 12, 2014)

neeners, I use organic EVOO for my Castile and it's still only about 80cents per bar. Makes a nice just slightly off white bar. IMO, the costco membership is worth it if you can locate one. I buy a half dozen bottles at a time.


----------



## neeners (Aug 12, 2014)

I'd love to get a costco membership, but I don't live anywhere with a costco, nor do I have a car (city living has its perks). does wal mart have org OO? I haven't shopped there in years so I don't really know...


----------



## Ellacho (Aug 12, 2014)

neeners said:


> I'd love to get a costco membership, but I don't live anywhere with a costco, nor do I have a car (city living has its perks). does wal mart have org OO? I haven't shopped there in years so I don't really know...



I am sorry Neeners that you are having trouble finding organic olive oil. I too try to use organic oils as much as I can in my soap ... so I feel you...

Walmart online sells organic olive oils in bulk but they are all extra virgin!

http://www.walmart.com/search/searc...ganic+olive+oil&Find=Find&search_constraint=0


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 13, 2014)

wetshavingproducts said:


> Just wondering though, what farming practices do you want to promote with olives? They're very old trees. Do they even use pesticides or other chemicals on them?



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7886254
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030881460800784X


----------



## neeners (Aug 13, 2014)

Thanks CanaDawn!  I will keep on looking!

 another thought was whole foods 365 brand.  I haven't really checked there yet.....


----------



## dixiedragon (Aug 13, 2014)

Have you considered Costco Business Delivery?
http://www2.costco.com/Browse/BDLanding.aspx?lang=en-US

I remember seeing somewhere on their site where some Costcos (not all, I think?) will have things in even larger bulk amounts.

Srsly, Costco is awesome.


----------



## leeleetrue (Aug 13, 2014)

http://www.soaperschoice.com

7 lbs of Organic EVOO, Food Grade 1st Cold Pressing USDA Certified QAI Certified NOP Certified, $21.49, or 35 lbs for $99.05. (plus s&h of course)

I don't see any reason not to use extra virgin olive oil, but that's me. It's more readily available.


----------



## coffeetime (Aug 14, 2014)

Does Soapers Choice deliver to Canada? The OP is in Ontario.


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 15, 2014)

coffeetime said:


> Does Soapers Choice deliver to Canada? The OP is in Ontario.



"[FONT=arial,geneva,helvetica]*Can people outside the United States order from the Soaper's Choice Web Store?* 

Currently, the Soaper's Choice Web Store is not accepting online orders from outside the United States. Soaper's Choice works international customers. International phone orders can be placed by calling (847) 257-8930 or by FAX at (847)257-8870 ."

So....yes, but no online ordering.  I'm guessing that should say works WITH international customers.
[/FONT]


----------



## Aline (Aug 15, 2014)

Dahila said:


> Organic products are labelled organic when they have at least one of the ingredient organic.


That is some serious misinformation! Products have to contain at least 95% organic ingredients to be labelled organic.


----------



## Dahila (Aug 16, 2014)

Aline I do not mean disrespect but please , do your homework. If you put 5 ingredients in ie lotion and one is organic (95%organic) the product can be called organic. Organic is overused word right now and sells everything.  
Organic does not mean that something was grown without chemicals.  Nothing can grow in today world without spraying.  Organic means that they use less chemicals and control it better. I am a gardener and I have not a lot of harvest due the fungus on veggies this year.  Whatever I have it is organic , was not touched by any chemical )


----------



## coffeetime (Aug 16, 2014)

Dahila, it may be different where you live, but here in Canada, organic means organic. That means no chemical pesticides and no non-organic inputs. I wasn't even allowed to use newspaper as a mulch, as the inks might have something undesirable in them. And organic standards require large buffer zones and water testing if your land is adjacent to non-organic growers. 

If it's 70% organic in a product, it clearly states it on the label.


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 16, 2014)

Sorry Dahlia, You are quite incorrect about this.  A producer can identify individual organic ingredients if they don't meet the standard to call the entire product organic, but 95% of the ingredients must be organic to be able to label the entire product as organic.  It's quite easy to look up the standards online.  http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...2&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title07/7cfr205_main_02.tpl (USA)

And as you are from Canada, too: http://www.inspection.gc.ca/food/la...s/eng/1389725994094/1389726052482?chap=3#s2c3

I personally know a few organic growers and they definitely don't spray chemicals, and definitely grow ample crops (as do families I know who are nearly self-sufficient with their gardens and livestock) so I'm not sure how you decided that nothing can be grown without spraying chemicals


----------



## coffeetime (Aug 16, 2014)

Thanks Canadawn, I didn't realize Dahila was from Ontario. I'm in Alberta and was seeking organic certification for a market garden, plus I know a lot of organic producers, so I'm always surprised by the 'organic is a scam' mindset.


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 16, 2014)

coffeetime said:


> Thanks Canadawn, I didn't realize Dahila was from Ontario. I'm in Alberta and was seeking organic certification for a market garden, plus I know a lot of organic producers, so I'm always surprised by the 'organic is a scam' mindset.



I'm in Alberta too, and am grateful for the organic producers we have locally and for the time and effort they put into meeting the standards.


----------



## neeners (Aug 16, 2014)

kind of off topic, but I saw a vendor at a market selling soap.  they have organic in their name.  I look at the ingredients, and nothing is labelled as certified organic (which, I've seen other soapers do for their organic ingredients).  I asked them if they use organic ingredients.  they paused for a SPLIT second, and said yes.  so I asked again just to make sure.  they said yes.  they also make their soaps right in the city (Toronto).  so....why would you go to the trouble of sourcing your organic ingredients, but not list them as organic?  

 I would have asked where they got their oils, but I think they buy in huge quantities as they had 2 full tables FILLED with soap.  I'm still weary.......

 search continues today....


----------



## Dahila (Aug 18, 2014)

CanaDawn said:
			
		

> I personally know a few organic growers and they definitely don't spray  chemicals, and definitely grow ample crops (as do families I know who  are nearly self-sufficient with their gardens and livestock) so I'm not  sure how you decided that nothing can be grown without spraying  chemicals


I was not talking about farmers , I know few myself.  I was taking about products; like lotion, or creams.  
I buy in costco Avocado Oil which is "NO Gmo verified" is it organic?  Nor really it is not.  Not all no Gmo products are organic. 
BTW I make my own breads using organic flours from the Flour Mill.  I Did not mean disrespect,  If anyone feels I was not polite; please accept my apology


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 18, 2014)

Dahila said:


> I was not talking about farmers , I know few myself.  I was taking about products; like lotion, or creams.



I was responding to this comment you made "  Nothing can grow in today world without spraying." which is why I assumed you were talking about farmers/growers/producers.  I've never grown a lotion, so I didn't immediately think that's what you were referring to.


----------



## Dahila (Aug 19, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> I was responding to this comment you made " Nothing can grow in today world without spraying." which is why I assumed you were talking about farmers/growers/producers. I've never grown a lotion, so I didn't immediately think that's what you were referring to.


 
Actually nothing will grow without spraying!!! That's right organic farmers spray the crops, the only difference is they keep using all style chemicals that do not kill bees, or others. They use different herbacides, they keep enough time between spraying and harvesting. Imagine organic farmer not having harvest due to pests on apple or other products. I am reading a lot about organic farming. It is different what most people imagine. :-D
I will not continue this discussion, I mean no disrespect


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 19, 2014)

Things definitely grow.  See above where I discuss things growing without spray.  I don't imagine, I experience.  I'm guessing you live where I don't, because what you are saying is NOT the case here.


----------



## Dahila (Aug 25, 2014)

I live in Ontario; Canada I have a huge veggies patch ; no spraying, so my tomato gave me maybe 8 tomatoes only.. CanaDawn I respect you but you are wrong this time.  This time you are not right


----------



## Jencat (Aug 25, 2014)

Our blackberries went crazy this year and we didn't spray them with anything.  We had tons of tomatoes last year and hadn't spayed those either.  We do have an organic spray for our fruit trees and will probably get a better harvest from those if we'd remember to actually use it.  Personally, I also prefer to buy organic when possible to support organic farming methods.  Certified organic food can't have been sprayed or grown with non-organic pesticides.


----------



## Dahila (Aug 25, 2014)

Contrary to what most people believe, "organic" does not automatically mean "pesticide-free" or "chemical-free". In fact, under the laws of most states, organic farmers are allowed to use a wide variety of chemical sprays and powders on their crops. 

So what does organic mean? It means that these pesticides, if used, must be derived from natural sources, not synthetically manufactured. Also, these pesticides must be applied using equipment that has not been used to apply any synthetic materials for the past three years, and the land being planted cannot have been treated with synthetic materials for that period either. Most organic farmers (and even some conventional farmers, too) employ mechanical and cultural tools to help control pests. These include insect traps, careful crop selection (there are a growing number of disease-resistant varieties), and biological controls (such as predator insects and beneficial microorganisms).

Yes I agree with above, I spray with neem oil my garden, which kind of working... We are not talking about synthetic materials we were talking in general.


----------



## CanaDawn (Aug 25, 2014)

I still would like to know how RU gets used by "organic" farmers where you live, although since you stated two posts ago you were done with the discussion, I guess I won't  .  State what you like about my garden and that of others who don't spray (none of which you have any knowledge of, of course), but "don't spray" really does mean no spray - and plenty of produce and things growing - I am currently overrun with tomatoes!

Organic gardeners are specifically regulated so spraying non-approved chemicals would mean instant declassification and a long period of time before they could relabel as organic.  But this has been stated more than a few times already in this thread, and I backed up my comment with a link to the actual regulations, so pretty much I'm all done too.

Consider that a lack of pollinators, which is getting worse and worse (thanks in no small part to all the #$%@# chemical sprays that are being used so indiscriminately (and I would say darn near criminally, since they endanger a great deal of life, if nothing changes soon)), may contribute to a shortage of fruits like tomatoes, and that some gardening practices may lead to fungus problems that can be prevented.  (And since all the chemicals you sprayed did nothing, clearly they aren't the answer anyhow,  I guess).  By all means, garden as you see fit...and I hope you will be able to find someone knowledgeable who can help with your tomato problems.


----------



## Dahila (Sep 1, 2014)

Canadawn I know that we both are very passionate about bees, what happen to us when they all die.  They already are in small numbers... I know I said I am done, but i could not resist) sorry 
Have a wonderful day Canadawn


----------

