# Borax Hand Soap for Blacksmith or other dirty work



## earlene (Oct 4, 2016)

Because I have mentioned this in various threads, I thought I'd start a thread about this soap since I wanted to report back on how it's working.

Last year I made Borax soap for my son to use after gardening.  This year I made some for my brother who requested some 'Lava type soap' because that's what he uses after blacksmithing.  

But he told me it takes all week long to get his hands clean using pumice soap (Lava.)  So I searched some blacksmithing sites and found that many guys use Borax instead of pumice because it gets their hands cleaner after blacksmithing.

So for my brother, I made 3 bars using lard as one of the oils (I had never used lard in soap before this, but brother is not vegetarian):

1. Pumice bar 
2. Borax bar  (pictured here)
3. combination of Pumice and Borax

I kept a couple of bars from each batch to keep an eye on them and also to have Hubby test when he works on our cars.  He does most of the work on our cars, except body work, so he can get pretty dirty after a day of changing oil, rotating tires, and whatnot.

Before I left for SoapCon, I removed all the hand soap from the master bathroom & replaced it with one bar of Borax soap that I made on June 25th.  Today Hubby came to me after washing his hands after a major oil spill clean up (he managed to get motor oil all over and had quite a clean up so he got dirtier than usual this time). He asked me what was in the soap at the bathroom sink because it got his hands and under his fingernails clean with only one washing.  I told him it was the Borax soap that I had made for my brother and I was hoping he would use it and report back to me how it worked.  He raved about it; said Lava soap does not clean under the nails at all and that with one single washing he has never been able to get motor oil out from under his fingernails with Lava or that Orange hand cleaner he keeps under the bathroom sink.

So I have my report on the Borax Soap.

My brother first tested the Combination soap right after I gave it to him.  His hands were pretty dirty before he started and he had a blood blister that, although I recognized it as such, he did not think it was a blood blister.  He thought it was just dirty.  Well it was so dirty that he couldn't see the blood blister underneath the dirt.  He came back from the bathroom after washing his hands and said, 'the Combination is a Winner'.  And he said, 'You were right it is a blood blister.  I couldn't even see it before.'  I am not sure how many days it had been since he had worked with his blacksmithing when he washed his hands with my soap, but he had already done a few handwashings and still had those black stains on his hands.  But when he told me his hands got cleaner with only one washing with the combo soap than with a whole week of handwashing with Lava.

So I am in agreement with the blacksmiths who said the secret is Borax.  I told him about finding this out at a black smithing forum, so that was certainly of interest to him.  It was not the forum he participated in, though, I guess, or at least he had not read that thread.

He has not reported on the pumice only soap, but we have all been on various roadtrips and he may not have yet used that soap.

So now I need to learn to determine how much lye the Borax neutralizes so I can formulate the soap to be a predictable SF.  DeeAnna & I discussed this topic in another thread, but I think we both felt like we were hijacking the thread, so it would be more appropriate here.  DeeAnna suggested that with an unpredictable SF with the Borax, I might get DOS.  So I went and looked at the bars and what do you know?  There was a little bit of DOS, hence I moved the soap to the bathroom sink to get Hubby to use it and report on it's usefulness before I'd have to toss it out.  It still smells fine, just a little bit of discoloration at this point.

Also I did not yet have EDTA when I made this soap and it did not occur to me to add ROE to the lard, therefore I made no efforts to prevent DOS in that soap.  

The other bar with Borax and Pumice, was all rebatched soap scraps left over from trimming other soaps.  So they had ROE in them already and the soap was already saponified, so there was no lye to neutralize.  Those bars of soap should not get DOS, at least not from the Borax interacting with fresh lye, since there was no fresh lye.  I still have a couple of bars of this soap to watch as I am not sure my brother would know or see DOS like I would.  (After all he couldn't see his blood blister under the dirt, but I could.)


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## TeresaT (Oct 4, 2016)

Thank you for this!!  My next door neighbor is a mechanic.  His hands are never clean.  It would be amazing if I could make some borax soap for him for Christmas.  How much borax did you use in your soap?  What SF did you soap at to begin with, I usually do a 5%.  I can lower that to 2% with the borax in it until you and DeeAnna figure out the "borax eats" lye rate.  I guess that would make it sodium borate?  

ETA:  Yep, now that I figured out "Borax" is the name brand for sodium borate, I feel really smart. :lolno:   ESPECIALLY since I've got a crap ton of that stuff in the laundry room.  I literally have more than 15 lbs of "sodium borate" in my cabinet.  I wish I could blame it on being tired...


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## Misschief (Oct 4, 2016)

Earlene, I've made a borax soap before using the recipe in this link:

http://www.soaprecipes101.com/homemade-soap-recipes/borax-handmade-soap-recipe/

And before anyone starts telling me that I shouldn't use a recipe like this one because it's by volume only and not by percentages, or whatever, I did change it to percentages and ran it through SoapCalc. I love this soap and I should make another batch soon.


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## earlene (Oct 4, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Thank you for this!!  My next door neighbor is a mechanic.  His hands are never clean.  It would be amazing if I could make some borax soap for him for Christmas.  How much borax did you use in your soap?  What SF did you soap at to begin with, I usually do a 5%.  I can lower that to 2% with the borax in it until you and DeeAnna figure out the "borax eats" lye rate.  I guess that would make it sodium borate?
> 
> ETA:  Yep, now that I figured out "Borax" is the name brand for sodium borate, I feel really smart. :lolno:   ESPECIALLY since I've got a crap ton of that stuff in the laundry room.  I literally have more than 15 lbs of "sodium borate" in my cabinet.  I wish I could blame it on being tired...



*My most recent recipe for Borax soap was:*

33% Lye Concentration
7% SuperFat (because of the high CO content, I don't usually go that high)

40% Crisco, new w/palm
30% Coconut Oil, 76 deg
30% Lard, Pig Tallow Manteca

2.2 ounces Borax dissolved in boiling water (reserved from the lye water)
Colorants I used for the last batch: alkanet root, madder root, TD
I tried doing a ribbon pour, but poured too thin and it turned out looking like a Clyde Slide.  
I was actually happy that it turned out pretty considering that it was really just designed to be a hand cleaning soap.


*My first recipe (no animal fats) was:*

SoapCalc default: 5% SuperFat and 
27.601% Lye Concentration or Water as 38% of oil Weight

15.5 ounces Westcott Vegetable Shortening (I used the Crisco setting, but did not actually have any Crisco, so the final SF was probably off)
7.5 ounces Coconut Oil, 76 deg

1.2 ounces Borax dissolved in
2  ounces boiling water (reserved from lye water)

3.33 ounces NaOH
6.74 ounces distilled water (total called for was 8.74, but 2 were used to dissolve the Borax)

This was the first time I tried using vegetable shortening in soap.  This soap was rather brittle.  I probably should have cut it sooner than I did, but back then I did not cut my soaps as early as I do now.  I often waited at least 2 or 3 days before unmolding and cutting the soap.

The second soap is not brittle at all.  

*Misschief*, I found that recipe too as well as one in a book I borrowed from my local library.  As a vegetarian I wanted to make the soap without animal fats, so I adapted based on the oils I had on hand at the time.  I did conclude that vegetable oil with CO was not the best recipe, but it was a starting point.

I have no problem cooking meat for my husband to eat, so I decided that I may as well give making soap with lard a try.  I doubt I'll go the tallow route, though.  I don't really want to boil down animal fats in my kitchen.  I don't like the smell of animal fats.  I don't even like the smell of lard either, but I did discover that by adding FO's to the lard soap batter the lard odor doesn't offend my nose for as long as it does without any added fragrance.


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## Kamahido (Oct 4, 2016)

I too am interested in how much sodium hydroxide is eaten by the borax.


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## BrewerGeorge (Oct 5, 2016)

Kamahido said:


> I too am interested in how much sodium hydroxide is eaten by the borax.



Is anybody equipped to do a titration?


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## Scooter (Oct 5, 2016)

Misschief said:


> Earlene, I've made a borax soap before using the recipe in this link:
> 
> http://www.soaprecipes101.com/homemade-soap-recipes/borax-handmade-soap-recipe/
> 
> And before anyone starts telling me that I shouldn't use a recipe like this one because it's by volume only and not by percentages, or whatever, I did change it to percentages and ran it through SoapCalc. I love this soap and I should make another batch soon.



I noticed that the URL you link to describes this recipe as making an "extra mild soap, perfect for delicate skin." It is 2/3 CO and 1/3 tallow. Did you think it was mild? I am still trying to figure out what a soap may "feel like" (in a rough general way) by just reading the recipes. Does this kind of recipe not strip out the oils too much?

Thanks for posting it!

Scooter


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## artemis (Oct 5, 2016)

Today, I slightly tweaked a recipe and added the dissolved borax at trace.  The soap is already out of thr mold and cut. I did add a little salt to the lye water, so I know that contributed to it hardening sooner, but what about the borax?  Will that do it, too?


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## earlene (Oct 5, 2016)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Is anybody equipped to do a titration?


I don't have any phenolphthalein, which is what Dr. Kevin Dunn used when he demonstrated the method for determining if lye had gone bad, or how pure it is at the point in time of testing.

I thought I would do some searching online and see if I could find some answers, but so far all I have found just muddies the waters.

This thread from 2009 contradicts the 'Borax neutralizes lye' statement.  So I remain confused.


ETA: 

Well, I did a little more searching using additional criteria and here is one of DeeAnna's most recent posts about Borax and it makes me a little less confused.  Still can't find anything yet about how much Borax neutralizes how much NaOH (yet).

ETA again:

And now I found this on Buffer Solutions.  I think it might be what I need.








The molecular weight of Borax is: 381.37 g/mol
The molecular weight of NaOH is: 39.997 g/mol

So with the formula above, 0.025 M of Borax would be 9.93 grams
and 0.1 M of NaOH would weigh 4 grams.  Duh, that's already there in the parentheses!  Hand to head. :think:

Now I just have to figure out how to apply this to a formula for making Borax soap.  (The hard part.)
Or maybe not, since this addresses pH and that's not really what I want to adjust.  I just want to make sure I don't end up with too high a superfat when I make Borax soap for my brother and I want to prevent DOS that could result with too much superfat.

Any ideas anyone on how to figure out how much Borax 'neutralizes' or 'buffers' or whatever it is actually doing to the NaOH when making bar soap?   DeeAnna?  TOMH? Gentalman?  Anyone with the scientific know-how on this?  I'm at a loss at this point. 

I have no way of testing the resulting SF, and don't really want to go to extremes in terms of laboratory testing and whatnot.  I just want to make sure the soap is good for hand cleaning (for my brother the blacksmith) and that it won't get DOS while it sits on the shelf before he uses the next bar.  I suppose I could just make a low SF (2% perhaps) bar of soap, use ROE and EDTA, of which I have both, and hope for the best.  I think that would be my next step anyway if I cannot find a better next step.


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## Misschief (Oct 5, 2016)

Scooter said:


> I noticed that the URL you link to describes this recipe as making an "extra mild soap, perfect for delicate skin." It is 2/3 CO and 1/3 tallow. Did you think it was mild? I am still trying to figure out what a soap may "feel like" (in a rough general way) by just reading the recipes. Does this kind of recipe not strip out the oils too much?
> 
> Thanks for posting it!
> 
> Scooter



It's actually one of my favourite soaps. Borax is also a water softener. I don't find it drying at all.


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## Kamahido (Oct 6, 2016)

Paging DeeAnna to the front desk please.


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## susiefreckleface (Oct 9, 2016)

fascinating stuff.  I've been wanting to use borax in soap for quite a while.

Your soaps look beautiful, cute little car.

Suz


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## Saipan (Oct 9, 2016)

Wow, I've been thinking about this, just this morning and I'm online and here it is.

I am a blade smith, and have been wanting to make borax soap, so, I think I'll give it a try.

Probably in 3 weeks when I'm back from Austria.


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## penelopejane (Oct 9, 2016)

This doesn't help with the borax problem, sorry, but I have used 30/30/30/10 palm oil (your crisco I think?)/conconut oil/olive oil/castor oil. 5% SF. 
It makes a hard bar that a farmer friend of mine and a tradesman love because it gets their hands clean. No EDTA or ROE necessary. 

It might be somewhere to start.


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## mx5inpenn (Nov 3, 2016)

Ugh. I waited too long to cut my first attempt at Borax soap. After about 19 hours, I had a crumbly mess. I guess this will be my first rebatch since I wanted this soap for my brothers.  I don't think it would be effective in confetti.


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## nsmar4211 (Nov 5, 2016)

mx6- If you don't want to rebatch, Could you use it as hand milled? (grate up, add a touch of water, press into shapes)?


***
earlene-thank you for posting your experiences!

I'm following this with interest with the borax because I'm working on a soap to remove oil smells off of hands myself. I can vouch that pumice is awesome, but if you use the soap a lot it takes off skin! Great for blacksmith's though. I use it at 1 tsp ppo in my current odor soap , the fine ground version. I tried 1 tbl ppo and used that for a foot scrub LOL.


Do blacksmiths end up with oil on their hands or is it all just dirt?


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## earlene (Nov 5, 2016)

Well, I'd have to ask my brother, but I'd say it's more than simple dirt. His hands get black and it sort of embeds itself into the skin.


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## Steve85569 (Nov 5, 2016)

I keep a salt bar in the places where I clean up after getting greasy of working with metals. 
Just a thought. I suppose you could add some borax to a salt bar just to see...


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## ngian (Nov 6, 2016)

mx6inpenn said:


> Ugh. I waited too long to cut my first attempt at Borax soap. After about 19 hours, I had a crumbly mess. I guess this will be my first rebatch since I wanted this soap for my brothers.  I don't think it would be effective in confetti.


You could put the soap loaf in the oven at~60-70°C for 30-50min so as for the soap to become softer and be able to cut it without getting crumbled.


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## mx5inpenn (Nov 7, 2016)

Well, I rebatched today.  It was still a bit crumbly in spots and is ugly as sin, but I was able to get decent cuts while it was still warm.


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## earlene (Apr 2, 2017)

Update on the soap my brother chose as his favorite for cleaning his hands after long sessions of BlackSmithing.

He chose the combo soap:  I used the trimming/scraps of pumice soap and the trimmings/scraps of Borax soap to rebatch together into a combo BlackSmith soap.  So that's my next project as he has almost run out of them.  I actually have some left here at home, so I'll send him those while the newer ones cure.


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## earlene (Apr 2, 2017)

earlene said:


> So for my brother, I made 3 bars using lard as one of the oils (I had never used lard in soap before this, but brother is not vegetarian):
> 
> 1. Pumice bar
> 2. Borax bar  (pictured here)
> 3. combination of Pumice and Borax



That link above for Borax Soap is WRONG.  I cannot edit anymore to show the correct link, so will have to fix it here.

Borax bar photo:






Pumice bar photo:





Oops, no photo of the Combination of Pumice and Borax bars.  It seems I gave the last one to Hubby and it's still sink-side in the bathroom.  So I just washed my hands with it.  Boy does it bubble up nicely!  It looks a lot like the Pumice Soap in the above photo, but I did shoot a pic just now for posterity and here it is:


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## Soapmaker145 (Apr 2, 2017)

earlene said:


> Last year I made Borax soap for my son to use after gardening.  This year I made some for my brother who requested some 'Lava type soap' because that's what he uses after blacksmithing.



I'm not sure how you're making the borax soaps.  I'm not a chemist but from the information I could find online, sodium metaborate is the primary product formed when mixing borax with NaOH.  I edited this post to remove the information about carcinogenicity.  See the info in my other post upstream.  

My recommendation is to add borax to HP soap or during rebatching when most of the lye has been used up to minimize the formation of sodium metaborate.  You could probably come up with an HP recipe that allows you to add pumice and borax at the end of the cook.  

If I were to try it, I would also add some PG and sugar syrup to make the batter more fluid and make the soaps harder and last longer.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 2, 2017)

Can you cite your sources, Soapmaker? Because I'm not finding anything like what you're seeing about sodium metaborate. 

It's an irritant to the skin and mucous membranes, can be absorbed into the body through the mucous membranes and open cuts, and it can cause gastrointestinal upset if ingested. Animal data show there might be reproductive problems if absorbed into the body in high doses, but human studies have not confirmed this. But in the references I'm reading, it is not listed as a carcinogen and the hazard of toxicity would be relatively low.

Sources: 
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+5045
https://micaphoto.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/msds_sodium_metaborate_4_mol-1.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02783147?LI=true


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## makemineirish (Apr 2, 2017)

I cannot contribute much to recipe collaboration as I have not attempted Borax soap.  However, I live a very dirty life and have some habit tips that are helpful (assuming your brother has any interest in listening to me when mine doesn't).

1. Fill nail overhangs.  A mechanic friend introduced me to this nifty trick.  Before employing your hands in filthy endeavors, dig your nails into a bar of soap.  The soap fills the cavities and blocks anything else from doing so while you work.  Minimal scrubbing is required when you clean your hands later.  Even better, if you are in a hurry and overlook some soap, the "discoloration" under your nails is white (thus not perceived as "dirty")

2. Moisturize consistently.  One of the reasons that mechanical work and blacksmithing are so soiling is because the hands doing it tend to become dry and cracked.  The grease and soot are reasonably staining on the surface, but even more stubborn once they have managed to burrow into every crevice and fissure.  O'Keeffe's Working Hands is a favored option with mechanics I know (even while I am not a fan of the ingredient's list) if you don't want to craft a "mechanic's lotion" as well.   This can be applied at night before bed and washed in the morning before work if there is any concern about the oils and butters touching the surfaces of the metal being worked.

3)  Create an barrier (not sure if this is an option).  When cooking, I rub a bit of olive oil into my hands before dicing hot peppers to keep the capsaicin from settling into my pores.  It can then be more thoroughly removed by washing my hands so that I do not end up in pain if I thoughtlessly touch a mucus membrane later.  I do not have an arsenal of knowledge on what skin safe oils/lubricants  are utilized and/or innocuous to the process of blacksmithing.  I also  assume that flammability might be a consideration at certain points in  the process.  It just seemed like there might be a medium that correlated to my use of the olive oil.  ETA: I found a reference on Reddit to using pine tar to help prevent blisters and create a dirt barrier during blacksmithing.

I hope that this helps and will be eagerly watching the thread for the contributions, evolution, and reviews of Borax soap.Save
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## DeeAnna (Apr 2, 2017)

I haven't weighed into this discussion until now, because I don't have good answers about how borax and soap play together. The problem is not as simple as what happens when you add something simple like citric acid or vinegar (acetic acid). 

In a liquid solution, borax is a buffer. What a buffer does is try to control the pH of a solution to a given range. Borax "likes" the pH to be somewhere between 8 and 10. Soap itself is a buffer too, but its "preferred" pH range is a bit higher -- it likes the pH to be around 10 to 11, give or take a bit.

People use borax to thicken liquid soaps and to lower the pH of the soap. If too much borax solution is added, the soap will "break" into fatty acids that float on the surface of the diluted soap. Borax essentially does this by pushing the pH lower than what the soap can accept. The response of soap to a pH that is too low is to chemically separate to some degree, depending on the particular chemical situation. If I can observe this response to borax in liquid soap, then I know it happens to bar soap as well -- just because the effect is not visible to the eye in a bar of soap doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Fatty acids are usually white in color, so this might explain why bar soap with borax is so very white. (Just a guess on my part -- I don't know this to be true.)

I suspect, because the preferred pH's of soap and borax are fairly close, that there comes a point where no more soap breaks down, so the ending composition of a borax soap is a mixture of soap, fatty acids, and borax. Any borax remaining in the soap in solid form will act as an exfoliant, something like pumice, but it's going to dissolve (unlike pumice) as water is added while you wash your hands. Borax also acts as a weak water softener, so the soap will work better at cleaning the skin. Borax, like soap, also acts as an emulsifier so it aids in dissolving greasy dirt. 

So you ask -- how much borax reacts with the soap or with the sodium hydroxide? I'm really not quite sure.


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## earlene (Apr 2, 2017)

*Soapmaker145*, What is PG?  I did add sugar to increase the bubbles in the combo soap and it certainly does that, but then that soap was also a rebatch of scraps from the Borax Soap and the Pumice Soap.

Regarding Sodium Metaborate, I found this and this.  After reading those it seems to indicate that it is not something I need to be particularly worried about, although maybe you apparently found something different that I did not find.  In addition to that, my Dad used to use it in his darkroom for decades when developing his photographs.  Of course he didn't wash his hands in it and used tongs rather than dip his hands directly into it.  But I simply cannot find anything about metaborate absorbing into tunbroken skin (for handwashing or otherwise).  There does seem to be some concern about Borax crossing the placental barrier, but that is not an issue in this case.  (My brother, my husband, nor I will ever get pregnant.)

As for how I make the soap, I have only done this as a CP method.  The small amount of Borax is dissolved in boiling water, then set aside to cool.  The soap is made as usual CP soap is made, then the cooled Borax solution can be added at emulsion or trace, depending if intricate swirls are desired.  I tried it at emulsion for the soap I made in June because I wanted to do a Ribbon Pour.  It didn't work so well in the ribbon pour, but it was my very first attempt and I had to practice a lot to get that technique down.  After mixing in the Borax solution and separating the batter, I then added colorants before attempting the Ribbon Pour.  

When I made it 2 years ago, I added the cooled Borax solution at medium to heavy trace just before pouring into the mold.  That was with uncolored soap I made to use as a gardener's soap.

In the soap for my brother I used about 62 grams of Borax in a total batch size of about 1400 grams where the amount of NaOH was 128.5 grams (the second recipe).  The first recipe total batch size was about 1000 grams with the NaOH at 92. grams and the Borax at 34 grams.  I decided to use a higher percentage of Borax for the second soap because I had read that many Blacksmiths prefer to use straight Borax powder for hand cleaning and chose to use a bit more than the first soap I made the year before (which was not for my brother, but to be used as a gardening soap.)  So that is why it was more the second time I made Borax soap.

On another note, I know some people are adamant that Borax is bad and that we should stop using it, but as many BlackSmiths all over the country (and elsewhere?), my brother uses it all the time, as it is a commonly used Flux in forge welding.



DeeAnna said:


> I haven't weighed into this discussion until now, because I don't have good answers about how borax and soap play together. The problem is not as simple as what happens when you add something simple like citric acid or vinegar (acetic acid).
> <snip>
> So you ask -- how much borax reacts with the soap or with the sodium hydroxide? I'm really not quite sure.



The only thing I've found so far that tells me anything about amounts of NaOH to add to Borax relates to making your own DIY Kodalk (metaborate) for darkroom developing purposes.  But the formula is for a 10% solution and that means nothing to me in terms of neutralizing NaOH.  But here is the formula if it somehow can be used for a rough correlation.  It comes via a thread on APUG (Anolog Photography Users Group):

"The formula I have that I trust, to make a 10% metaborate solution, is:

14.5 grams sodium hydroxide
69 grams borax
Water to make a liter."​


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## Soapmaker145 (Apr 2, 2017)

I did a search for borax and lye and this is one of the first things that came up: http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/sodium-metaborate-from-borax-sodium-hydroxide.44226/.  It's a chemical used in the photo industry that many amateur photographers seem to make on their own instead of buying.  I wonder how many of them dispose of it properly. 

I looked up the MSDS sheet for sodium metaborate on Sigma and the MSDS sheet I got had it classified as a carcinogen.  I just redid the search and I'm getting a different MSDS sheet that doesn't classify it as a carcinogen.  I must have gotten the wrong MSDS sheet even though that rarely happens.  The new sheet has all "No data available" under toxicology except for the carcinogenicity field.  This alone makes me more uneasy about this chemical than before.  

I'll edit my other post to correct the information.


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## earlene (Apr 2, 2017)

Soapmaker145 said:


> I did a search for borax and lye and this is one of the first things that came up: http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/sodium-metaborate-from-borax-sodium-hydroxide.44226/.  It's a chemical used in the photo industry that many amateur photographers seem to make on their own instead of buying.  I wonder how many of them dispose of it properly.
> 
> I looked up the MSDS sheet for sodium metaborate on Sigma and the MSDS sheet I got had it classified as a carcinogen.  I just redid the search and I'm getting a different MSDS sheet that doesn't classify it as a carcinogen.  I must have gotten the wrong MSDS sheet even though that rarely happens.  The new sheet has all "No data available" under toxicology except for the carcinogenicity field.  This alone makes me more uneasy about this chemical than before.
> 
> I'll edit my other post to correct the information.



Professional Photographers who still use old fashioned film (rather than digital photographty) use 10% metaborate also.  My Dad used it for decades, but then digital photography had not yet been invented.  In some cases purchasing Kodalk (metaborate) solution is more difficult now that so few traditional darkrooms exist anymore.  The law of supply and demand in effect.

I don't remember exactly how my dad disposed of the darkroom chemicals, but I do remember him pouring them back into dark brown gallon glass jugs.  I believe he took them to work with him and disposed of them legally in whatever method was required by law and the newspaper where he worked had the where-with-all to do as was the industry standard at the time.

Now-a-days, I do certainly hope the rest of them take just as much care as we do with motor oil and dispose of it properly given today's laws and industry standards.


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## Soapmaker145 (Apr 2, 2017)

earlene said:


> *Soapmaker145*, What is PG?  I did add sugar to increase the bubbles in the combo soap and it certainly does that, but then that soap was also a rebatch of scraps from the Borax Soap and the Pumice Soap.
> 
> Regarding Sodium Metaborate, I found this and this.  After reading those it seems to indicate that it is not something I need to be particularly worried about, although maybe you apparently found something different that I did not find.  In addition to that, my Dad used to use it in his darkroom for decades when developing his photographs.  Of course he didn't wash his hands in it and used tongs rather than dip his hands directly into it.  But I simply cannot find anything about metaborate absorbing into tunbroken skin (for handwashing or otherwise).  There does seem to be some concern about Borax crossing the placental barrier, but that is not an issue in this case.  (My brother, my husband, nor I will ever get pregnant.)
> 
> ...



I have mixed feeling about borax.  Before insecticides, it was used in many countries to kill ants and roaches.  I know it's been used for ever in soap and other products.  I used to use it with beeswax to make face cream.  At one point I switched to synthetic emulsifiers because of safety concerns.  I never had a bad reaction to it and I still use it for washing clothes (double rinse).  I just chose to minimize exposure giving everything else we're exposed to.

PG is propylene glycol which is use for making transparent soap.  I'm not suggesting making transparent soap but adding enough to make the batter more fluid so you can add pumice and borax to it.  I've use PG and sugar syrup to make rebatched soaps look better.

I think if the borax is added after the saponification reaction is complete, there won't be a significant amount of lye left to react with borax.  You end up with borax in your end product and you won't have to worry about secondary reactions.  I don't know if it will change the effectiveness of the final product.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 2, 2017)

I have to point out that if you add borax after the saponification is over, that doesn't mean the borax would be chemically inert. The old timers used to make a soft mixed sodium and potassium soap from lye made from ashes. The way to firm up this soap somewhat was to add salt (sodium chloride, table salt) after the soap had been made. The sodium from the salt is able to replace some of the potassium on the soap molecules. Borax, also being a salt, would have the ability to alter soap molecules even if added to an HP soap after the cook. It might not do the same things that it might when added while the lye is active, but it would have some effect.


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## Soapmaker145 (Apr 4, 2017)

Borax will still be reactive when added to rebatched or HP soap but it won't have much lye to react with since most of it has been neutralized.  There won't be much of a reaction to generate metaborate since it is dependent on having both chemicals in enough concentration to drive the reaction.  This is a case of minimize a potentially undesirable reaction as much as possible.  I haven't had time to dig up some of the literature on sodium metaborate.  I want to know why they don't want it dumped down the drain or in regular garbage.  

I was thinking about making a "borax soap" which is why I ended up in this thread.  I'll post again if I find anything out.


----------



## SheLion (Apr 4, 2017)

Soapmaker145 said:


> Borax will still be reactive when added to rebatched or HP soap but it won't have much lye to react with since most of it has been neutralized.  There won't be much of a reaction to generate metaborate since it is dependent on having both chemicals in enough concentration to drive the reaction.  This is a case of minimize a potentially undesirable reaction as much as possible.  I haven't had time to dig up some of the literature on sodium metaborate. * I want to know why they don't want it dumped down the drain or in regular garbage.  *
> 
> I was thinking about making a "borax soap" which is why I ended up in this thread.  I'll post again if I find anything out.



My guess would be because it's considered a herbicide.

Source: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/145326#section=Formulations-Preparations


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## DeeAnna (Apr 4, 2017)

Well, SOME borax is fine in the soil, in fact it's a micronutrient for plants and many other critters, but more borax than micronutrient amounts becomes toxic. Rather than try to educate people to understand the nuances of safe sensible disposal, which many people won't follow properly, the safest advice is to avoid disposing the chemical in any means that eventually will end up in the open environment (sewer system, storm sewer, household garbage, etc).

The same thing goes for table salt (NaCl, sodium chloride). You can use a little on soil, but you can't use a lot. Too much salt, just like too much boron, is toxic to soil microbes and plants. Salt also radically changes the soil chemistry, sometimes permanently.


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## cmzaha (Jul 21, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> Well, SOME borax is fine in the soil, in fact it's a micronutrient for plants and many other critters, but more borax than micronutrient amounts becomes toxic. Rather than try to educate people to understand the nuances of safe sensible disposal, which many people won't follow properly, the safest advice is to avoid disposing the chemical in any means that eventually will end up in the open environment (sewer system, storm sewer, household garbage, etc).
> 
> The same thing goes for table salt (NaCl, sodium chloride). You can use a little on soil, but you can't use a lot. Too much salt, just like too much boron, is toxic to soil microbes and plants. Salt also radically changes the soil chemistry, sometimes permanently.


Just take a trip through Boron California and it looks like one huge barren salt flat but is actually where they mine borax. No plants grow but a little sagebrush on the edge of the road


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## earlene (Jul 21, 2017)

Yes, we went there last October ourselves.  It was really fun for me even though not much of the operation is still there to look at.  Still I'd say we spent at least an hour or two walking around and looking at what was left of Harmony Borax Works, some plagues and signs telling about how it was harvested, refined, transported and such.  Here are some photos from that day:


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## DeeAnna (Jul 21, 2017)

The 20-mule teams used to transport the borax were amazing. I understand the teamster (driver) used a "jerk line" which was one single line (rein) attached to the lead mule waaaaaay out front -- this mule might be 75 feet or more from the wagon. All the other mules were harnessed together in such a way that where the lead mule went, the others had to follow. 

What's amazing is that these mules were smart enough to do tight turns correctly. The front mules start the turn but the middle and back mules have to know enough to walk straight ahead, even though their leaders are turning. The front mules might be entirely out of sight from the back mules (and the teamster) as the leaders began the turn around a hill.


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## earlene (Apr 13, 2018)

Update to include photos, using links from my media folder here at SMF.  Hopefully those links won't stop working like the others have.

Original soaps used for the testing process are listed first.  Brother had 3 types from which to choose and all are pictured in this collage:  






The two more recent Blacksmith soaps I made for him are pictured below.  I have also given some to my nephew, the welder and to my husband's co-worker who also dabbles in blacksmithing.  The Dragon's Blood is such a hit, that my husband's co-worker wants more because he doesn't want the wonderful fragrance to disappear from his bathroom.  Maybe I should start making some soap just to use as an air freshener!  

This is the one with DB:





This one was made using re-batch soap mixed with new batter:


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## Traumabrew (Apr 15, 2018)

Hi

Earlene would you mind sharing your formula for the combo blacksmithing soap?


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## earlene (Apr 15, 2018)

Sure, no problem.  I think it's the only one I've actually input on my computer since I lost everything on my old hard drive and had to start re-entering stuff!  Oh, no.  I'm wrong, I have entered 3 other ones, not this one.  And I only had 3 others saved to the cloud.  But all is not lost.  I have them all in my notebook as well, so I'll find it and post it sometime later tonight or tomorrow.


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## earlene (Apr 16, 2018)

Traumabrew said:


> Hi
> 
> Earlene would you mind sharing your formula for the combo blacksmithing soap?




Okay, *Traumabrew*, here is my recipe from the April 2017 layered Blacksmith soap pictured above.  It is attached in PDF.  If you are unable to view, please let me know.  You can install a free PDF reader if you don't have one, but if that's not doable, I can do another method.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 16, 2018)

Thank you for sharing, Earlene!


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## Traumabrew (Apr 17, 2018)

Thank You!


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## cgpeanut (Apr 26, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> Thank you for sharing, Earlene!


Can trisodium ethylenediamine discuccinate be sub'd for tetrasodium EDTA in Earlene's formula or can the EDTA be left out altogether.  Is the EDTA there for the DOS surppression?


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## earlene (Apr 26, 2018)

*cgpeanut*, I have no experience with trisodium ethylenediamine discuccinate, so I cannot comment other than to answer the last two questions.

I use *ROE + EDTA for DOS prevention purposes AND the EDTA is also a chelator that reduces soap scum as the soap is used.  I see a noticeable difference in reduced soap scum in my soaps since using it, and that coupled with the DOS retardation properties when used in combination with ROE is the reason it is included in my formula.

If you simply leave out the EDTA, I believe the ROE will not be very effective for DOS retardation, as per Dr. Dunn's work on the subject.  http://cavemanchemistry.com/DreadedOrangeSpot-Dunn.pdf

Which  chelator you use is a personal choice, of course, but you would have to figure out the correct percentages for each batch.  I have no idea if you would use the same amount or a different amount of that particular ingredient.

Edit:  *You don't see ROE in the actual soapee.com notes because I always add the ROE to my oils when I open them, so don't list them out for each recipe when I enter the formula into the lye calculator.


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## cnm (May 30, 2018)

I know this is little older thread, but, earlene, there is only 2.2 grams of borax in your 1000 gram recipe?
I thought on the front page you had 2 ounces but there is not a total weight.


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## earlene (Jun 16, 2018)

cnm said:


> I know this is little older thread, but, earlene, there is only 2.2 grams of borax in your 1000 gram recipe?
> I thought on the front page you had 2 ounces but there is not a total weight.



*cnm*, I just now saw your question.   I was traveling and am now trying to catch up on what I missed while away.

I have made soap with Borax several times, and the measurements varied from soap to soap.  Looking back in this particular thread, I will reference my posts that include formulas (Posts #4, # 27, #40 and #41.)

Post #4 includes two formulas.

First was the soap I made on 6/25/2016, wherein I used 2.2 ounces of Borax dissolved in water and the total batch size was not listed, but in my soapmaking notebook for 2016, I wrote the actual weights.  I used 32 ounces of oils in that batch.  

The second formula was for my first Borax soap made on 9/27/2015 in which I used 1.2 ounces of Borax.  This amount was based on a recipe I found in a soapmaking book borrowed from my local library which called for 1/3 cup of Borax. 1/3 cup of Borax weighed 2.1 ounces on my scale.  BTW, I did NOT follow that recipe, but altered it because I had no desire to use animal fats.  I think I also had seen the same recipe posted at this link as well and it also calls for 1/3 cup Borax.  So I probably had both in mind when I concocted that formula.

In post # 27, I talked about the weight of the Borax in grams instead of ounces as well as the total batch sizes for the previously mentioned soaps.

In post # 40  the 2 Borax/Pumice soaps I made on 4/9/2017 are pictured.  The top photo of green & gold soap was all new soap.  The bottom photo included new and old soap (some embeds & confetti).

Post # 41 includes the formula I used for the April 9, 2017 green &  gold soap shown in the top photo shown in post # 40.  My soapmaking notebook also lists 2.2 grams of Borax, so I do believe the data I typed into soapee is correct for that particular batch.  I am not sure why I did that, other than to say, I probably meant to use 2.2 ounces, but was already measuring everything in grams, so that's what I did, then made sure to record it for accuracy.

I'll have to ask my brother if it works as well as the previous batches did.  He will be here in a few days.  He is on his way to an international Blacksmithing conference and will be staying here for a couple of night before they head back out on the road.

In fact my husband still has a bar of the first Blacksmith soap with the higher Borax content, sitting in the soap dish.  I can get out one with the lower content and have him do some side-by-side testing next time he works on the cars or some other messy work and see if he notices a difference.  I am really glad you asked that question!


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## earlene (Jun 24, 2018)

Regarding the question of how much Borax I actually used and did I make a transcription or record-keeping error OR did I make a measuring error  with the last blacksmith soap I made...

Now that my brother & SIL have left and we aren't busy with our trekking around Illinois (they left around noon yesterday), I am back to report on the follow up discussion.

It took me 3 days to remember to ask if the recent batch of blacksmith soap was cleaning his hands as well as the previous batches, and he said, 'Well I didn't want to say anything, but since you asked...)  No, it's not cleaning as well.  SO I apparently DID make a transcription error and followed the recipe with the lowered and INSUFFICIENT amount Borax recorded in my notebook.  SO, I have made sure to correct the recipe saved in my computer and in my notebook to reflect the correct amounts.  AND I have to be very careful to avoid transcription errors!


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## lsg (Jun 24, 2018)

Thanks for generously sharing your recipe, earlene.


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## Lye-h20-oil (Oct 15, 2018)

Thank you all for posting your thoughts and research on borax in soap. I have read all of the posts in this thread but I am still confused on when it should be mixed into the soap batch or if this soap should only be made with re-batching soap? If anyone can explain in small words


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## shunt2011 (Oct 15, 2018)

Lye-h20-oil said:


> Thank you all for posting your thoughts and research on borax in soap. I have read all of the posts in this thread but I am still confused on when it should be mixed into the soap batch or if this soap should only be made with re-batching soap? If anyone can explain in small words



The borax is dissolved in water and then added to the lye solution.


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## Lye-h20-oil (Oct 15, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> The borax is dissolved in water and then added to the lye solution.


Thank you!


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## earlene (Nov 12, 2018)

I was away traveling and am now catching up on what I missed while gone.  *Lye-h2O-oil*, I dissolve my borax in hot water, then after it cools a bit, mix it into my oils. Sometimes I add it later, like after the lye solution is added to the oils.  It all depends on if I forget to add it sooner.  It seems to work fine either way.


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## earlene (Nov 24, 2021)

Update:  I thought I had posted the correction in this thread, but apparently only in another thread (How much Borax in CP Soap?) 

Therefore, I am quoting the correction again here:



earlene said:


> BTW, please note there is an error in that formula.  I transcribed my recipe incorrectly from my handwritten notebook to the Soapee calculator.
> 
> *The correct amount of Borax in that recipe is 2.2 OUNCES* not grams.
> 
> ...



*BELOW **is the corrected formula:*

*Blacksmith Soap* which I made for my brother, the blacksmith (April 9, 2017)

*Dual Lye: 95% NaOH + 5% KOH (90% purity)
2% SF
Lye Concentration: 45%*
Total Batch Weight 1567 grams
6% Fragrance (Dragon's Blood)

*1000 grams of oils:*
5%   Castor
20% Coconut
30% Crisco, vegetable shortening (palm)
30% Lard
15% Olive Oil

**Lye Solution:*
181 grams  Water (distilled) - _first deduct amount of water to dissolve Borax_
136.8 grams NaOH
11 grams KOH (90% purity)

*Additives:*
62 grams Borax - dissolve in boiling hot water deducted from liquid amount
33 grams Pumice, super fine (the finest grain obtainable is best) - add to soap batter at trace
5 Tablespoons Honey - add to Borax solution to soften honey prior to adding to the oils
EDTA (or chelator of choice)
ROE (added to oils)

**IF using MasterBatch NaOH solution*, there will be 44 grams water available, to be divided for dissolving Borax AND for dissolving KOH.

Add the Borax & Honey solution to the oils.  Add the ROE, Chelator(s) & FO to the oils.  Mix lye solution into oils to emulsion, then trace.  Add pumice & mix well to ensure it remains in suspension.  Color as desired.  There should be sufficient time to do colored layers if desired.

Other oils can be used, however, that's what I used for the soap in question in this thread.


I do not claim that this is the be all and end all of Blacksmith Soaps, but my brother swears by it, so I have stuck with the Borax & Pumice combination to remove the stains from his hands and fingers.



FYI, I have checked, double checked & triple checked to make sure there are no typos or transcription errors prior to posting this Corrected Blacksmith Soap Formula.


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## AliOop (Nov 25, 2021)

@earlene, I apologize if you answered this and I missed it elsewhere in the thread.

I do use masterbatch NaOH solution, so I want to be sure that 44g of water is enough to dissolve both 11g KOH and 66g Borax. Thanks for clarifying for me!


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## earlene (Nov 26, 2021)

Yes, but I do use boiling water to dissolve the Borax.  It would not be enough if the water were cold.


AliOop said:


> @earlene, I apologize if you answered this and I missed it elsewhere in the thread.
> 
> I do use masterbatch NaOH solution, so I want to be sure that 44g of water is enough to dissolve both 11g KOH and 66g Borax. Thanks for clarifying for me!


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## melinda48 (Dec 20, 2021)

earlene said:


> Update:  I thought I had posted the correction in this thread, but apparently only in another thread (How much Borax in CP Soap?)
> 
> Therefore, I am quoting the correction again here:
> 
> ...


going to give this a try for sure. thank you!


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## math ace (Dec 31, 2021)

@earlene

I have a few questions about your Blacksmith Soap

1.  What is the benefit of using two different types of lye?
     I don't use KOH for anything.  I really don't want to order some just for this
     recipe unless there is a real good reason.

2.  How different is the break down of oils from your normal body soap recipe?
     My basic body soap recipe is vegan.  I do run with 5% castor and 20% coconut oil,
     but the rest of my oils are different.  I am wondering if I would have a decent
     blacksmith soap if I kept my regular body soap recipe and just added the
     additives -  Pumice, Borax, and sugar (keeping it vegan friendly .

3.  THANKS earlene for sharing your recipe!


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## Zing (Jan 1, 2022)

math ace said:


> @earlene
> 
> I have a few questions about your Blacksmith Soap
> 
> ...


@earlene mentioned that you can use other oils.  I found Earlene's recipe super helpful but used my own basic oils recipe (all plant based) and only NaOH.  Let us know how it goes!


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## AliOop (Jan 1, 2022)

math ace said:


> @earlene
> What is the benefit of using two different types of lye?
> I don't use KOH for anything.  I really don't want to order some just for this  recipe unless there is a real good reason.


Dual lye makes the soap more soluble, which means it lathers a bit more easily. This can be important when you have a recipe like this with mostly low-lathering oils, plus a lot of scrubby stuff (or salts). 

If you don't want to use KOH, you can compensate by making the soap more soluble (i.e., easy lathering) in other ways. For instance, increase the amount of honey, add some sorbitol, or use AVJ or some other form of sugar (which is a solvent that makes soap more soluble). You could also increase your CO or PKO.


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## math ace (Jan 2, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Dual lye makes the soap more soluble, which means it lathers a bit more easily. This can be important when you have a recipe like this with mostly low-lathering oils, plus a lot of scrubby stuff (or salts).
> 
> If you don't want to use KOH, you can compensate by making the soap more soluble (i.e., easy lathering) in other ways. For instance, increase the amount of honey, add some sorbitol, or use AVJ or some other form of sugar (which is a solvent that makes soap more soluble). You could also increase your CO or PKO.



Does the Borax itself bring in bubbles and / or  lathering?


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## earlene (Jan 3, 2022)

math ace said:


> @earlene
> 
> I have a few questions about your Blacksmith Soap
> 
> ...


Sorry for the delay in getting back to you to answer your questions.

You don't need to use dual lye if you don't want to. It is to help with bubbles, something covered in various threads throughout the forum.  There are certainly other ways to boost bubbles. And your 20% CO should manage that. Sugar helps, of course. I believe pumice somewhat inhibits bubbles, so I figure anything to enhance them is probably worth a try.

How it differs from my 'usual' soap recipe, is that this was for my blacksmith brother, who has no problem with animal fats. As a vegetarian myself, I avoid bathing or handwashing using soaps with animal fats,so it I were to make this for my personal use, I would not use lard.

But I am not the blacksmith in the family, so I made it to suit my brother.



math ace said:


> Does the Borax itself bring in bubbles and / or  lathering?


I am not really sure.  The reason I use the Borax is because on the blacksmith forums, it was the one common denominator in posts by blacksmiths who were trying to find the most effective method of getting the stains off efficiently.  Stains from blacksmithing on the fingers and hands are very persistent.  

When my brother tested soap with and without the Borax, with and without the pumice, it was the soap with both ingredients that he found most effective.  We did not even discuss lather comparisons.  His only concern was the persistent stains being removed quickly (meaning in one day rather than taking several days which was the norm with his use of Lava soap.)


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## Zing (Apr 23, 2022)

earlene said:


> Update:  I thought I had posted the correction in this thread, but apparently only in another thread (How much Borax in CP Soap?)
> 
> Therefore, I am quoting the correction again here:
> 
> ...


Calling @AliOop or @earlene of @Misschief to the front desk, please.  I'm assuming that water is a _total _of 181 grams.  Of that 181 grams, how much water do you need to dissolve the borax?  Thanks!


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 23, 2022)

> 62 grams Borax - dissolve in boiling hot water deducted from liquid amount


Borax dissolves fairly easily in boiling water so I would use 50/50 water to Borax. The one thing to remember about Borax solutions is that you don't want it to cool down much before using it. The Borax can participate out and leave a hard crusty mass on the bottom of the container. Don't ask how I know this.


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## AliOop (Apr 23, 2022)

Zing said:


> Calling @AliOop or @earlene of @Misschief to the front desk, please.  I'm assuming that water is a _total _of 181 grams.  Of that 181 grams, how much water do you need to dissolve the borax?  Thanks!


Reporting to the front desk, sir! Yes, that is a total of 181grams. I'll look back in the thread where I asked Earlene how much water she used to dissolve the borax. It wasn't much, but like Zany said, it is best to have it boiling hot if possible. 

EDIT: well, apparently I was asking her about this because I wanted to use master-batched NaOH lye solution, which was only going to leave me 44g of additional water. Since I would need 11g of that to dissolve the KOH, that only left me 33g of water for dissolving 62g of borax. Earlene assured me that was fine as long as the water was boiling. And she was right - it was more than enough water and it dissolved very easily in boiling water.

But if you @Zing are not going to use master-batched lye solution, it can still work for you. Just remember, you will need 147.8g (lets say 148g) of water to dissolve the combined NaOH and KOH. That means the max you can use dissolving the borax is 181g minus 148g = 33g.  If that makes you nervous, simply up the water a bit to give yourself a margin for error. You don't have to go with the 45% lye solution that Earlene used, although that does help with making the batter thick enough to hold the pumice in suspension. You could do the same thing with a lower lye concentration by stickblending to a heavier trace.

It's a lot of work, but the soap is totally worth it. I have a bar sitting at my laundry sink and it's great for post-gardening cleanup.


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## earlene (May 2, 2022)

Thanks for filling in for me & addressing those questions, @AliOop  & @Zany_in_CO .  I was in Italy & Prague, then didn't get back to SMF for a bit after my return.  It takes some time to catch up on stuff back at home.

And thankyou for the feedback.

It's been awhile since I made this soap and I think I am going to have to make some more soon.  Brother's house was badly damaged in the California fires, and we have not discussed how the soap fared the damage or anything about soap, because so many other things have been going on since.  Mainly all of my siblings and our life events, which includes health issues for my 3 remaining brothers.  Blacksmith brother is now undergoing cancer treatments, so not sure when he will be blacksmithing again, but I suspect he will.  Another had another heart attack, and the baby has had major seizure problems requiring medication adjustments and all the ramifications of how that disrupts one's lifestyle.

Putting it all out there like that, makes me realize how imminently I need to do a roadtrip to the West Coast to see each of them!  My last trip to California was a rescue mission to bring my eldest from there to here & only included one brother in the trip because he was in our travel path as they were in Colorado at the time we were traveling through.

I am now considering do I want to postpone my own surgery in order to make the trip to see all the bros or do I go ahead with my surgery and have to delay a West Coast trip to a couple of months or so out.  My surgery is not urgent, but it will impair my ability to drive for a period of at least a month, maybe longer. My husband thinks I should post pone my surgery & see my brothers.  I will be giving this more thought.


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## Zany_in_CO (May 2, 2022)

earlene said:


> I was in Italy & Prague,


I just KNEW it!!!   You were missed! I just knew you were probably out gallivanting as usual. So happy you're back! I hope you had a good trip?

I'm so sorry to hear about your brothers. That's a lot to process right now but I hope you will find time to escape here while deciding what to do next. Soapmaking and Soap Talk always helps me to reduce stress and it's cheaper than therapy!


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## trancey_soap (May 2, 2022)

earlene said:


> *My most recent recipe for Borax soap was:*
> 
> 33% Lye Concentration
> 7% SuperFat (because of the high CO content, I don't usually go that high)
> ...



How many ounces of oils did you uses for 2.2oz of Borax in the most recent recipe?
40% Crisco, 30% Coconut Oil, 30% Lard


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 22, 2022)

Have you made this with activated charcoal @earlene?


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## earlene (Jun 23, 2022)

trancey_soap said:


> How many ounces of oils did you uses for 2.2oz of Borax in the most recent recipe?
> 40% Crisco, 30% Coconut Oil, 30% Lard


It was 32 ounces of oil.  I had to look back in my notebook, as I did not save that recipe on my computer!  It was probably in SoapCalc, which does not save as reliably as subsequent calculators and I am so glad I write everything down rather than rely on technology to save it for me!

Thank you for asking.


KiwiMoose said:


> Have you made this with activated charcoal @earlene?


No, I have not.  Have you?  If so, I'd really be interested in your evalution of the resulting soap!


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## TashaBird (Jun 23, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Borax dissolves fairly easily in boiling water so I would use 50/50 water to Borax. The one thing to remember about Borax solutions is that you don't want it to cool down much before using it. The Borax can participate out and leave a hard crusty mass on the bottom of the container. Don't ask how I know this.


I’m glad you mentioned that! I use borax to grow crystals on art projects. That would NOT be good in soap! Also, following, I love this idea of borax in soap!


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## Emulsion (Jun 23, 2022)

You’re very patient. Well done.


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 23, 2022)

earlene said:


> No, I have not.  Have you?  If so, I'd really be interested in your evalution of the resulting soap!


I am thinking about trying it, but wondered if 'just one more thing' might make it too brittle.


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## earlene (Jun 24, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> I am thinking about trying it, but wondered if 'just one more thing' might make it too brittle.




Let's see, what else can I add to this soap recipe?

I don't know about AC making it brittle, but that of course depends on the rest of your recipe, I suppose.  What I think might make it brittle though is vinegar, which again also depends on the rest of the recipe.  IME, using 100% vinegar as water replacement in a high palm oil soap, made for a very brittle bar.  It did not have pumice & borax, though so who knows, I may consider that in the future.  After, he will need more soap at some point.  I'd test it in a small batch first, of course.

ETA:  Actually, thinking back, I actually found that too much vinegar (100% water replacement) created brittle soap with any recipe I used it in, so not just palm.


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## AliOop (Jun 24, 2022)

Very interesting findings, @earlene. I would never have guessed that was an issue with vinegar, but I almost never use palm, either (it is drying for my skin).  My experiences with 100% vinegar never produced brittle soap, but I use a high percentage of lard in all of my 100% vinegar soaps — which I know you don’t use. So I’m guessing that phenomenon is recipe-dependent.  I’ve stopped using vinegar much now that I MB my lye solution.

@KiwiMoose if you do try the charcoal, please share your thoughts about it. My version of this soap generally isn’t brittle, although the last batch had slightly crumbly edges. But since I made this before without problems, I think the crumbly edges resulted from overfilling the cavities so that the soap “lipped” over the edge of each cavity, and thus was too thin in those areas. Once I trimmed those off, rest of the soap is neither brittle nor crumbly. My version does need a good long cure, at least 6 weeks, to lather easily, probably bc I skipped the dual lye.


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## Zing (Jun 24, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> I am thinking about trying it, but wondered if 'just one more thing' might make it too brittle.


First, I love @earlene's recipe and borax is a game changer!!  It's a miracle cleaner!  Dirt disappears in seconds and after gardening my hands are black.  No more rubbing my skin raw and red.
I did end up with brittle soap, though, so this thread may be helpful, Borax soap.  I can't wait to make more -- but will use no additional salts and will increase the water.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 27, 2022)

@earlene - I am about to make my first batch of Blacksmith Soap. Thank you so much for generously sharing your recipe and methods.  

Have you posted any photos of your trip?  I’m up for traveling vicariously!


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 27, 2022)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Have you posted any photos of your trip?  I’m up for traveling vicariously!


Me too!


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 27, 2022)

So I'm thinking I will probably make this with the following changes:
No dual lye, but with AVJ as the water content.
My usual vegan recipe ( maybe increase the CO to 25% for extra cleansing?) Keep superfat to 2%
35% lye concentration ( I've never done over 40% except for when using the split method with coconut milk)
Poured into cavity molds to avoid cutting issues with the added salts and pumice.
I like the idea of using activated charcoal because of two things - the colour: 'black' smiths soap, and the toxin removal aspect.
Any thoughts/comments/warnings appreciated.  @Zing - this means you too


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## Zing (Jun 27, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> So I'm thinking I will probably make this with the following changes:
> No dual lye, but with AVJ as the water content.
> My usual vegan recipe ( maybe increase the CO to 25% for extra cleansing?) Keep superfat to 2%
> 35% lye concentration ( I've never done over 40% except for when using the split method with coconut milk)
> ...


I use coconut oil at 25%.  Does aloe vera gel increase bubbles?  I use sugar to do that.  I only do the one lye, not dual lye, and use a 2% superfat.  And aren't you smart to use single cavity molds!  Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 28, 2022)

I made my version today using raw sugar instead of honey.  When the prohibited words were said and all was dissolved, the lye concentration was 36%. That included enough water to dissolve the EDTA that I used instead of my usual sodium citrate in an attempt to keep the lye concentration as high as possible. @KiwiMoose I borrowed your idea and added AC to the batch. To keep things exciting I almost forgot the pumice (duh) and ended up dumping the batter back in the bowl to add it. There were some bubbles by the time it was finally settled in the mold, but it looked good.


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## earlene (Jun 28, 2022)

Mobjack Bay said:


> @earlene - I am about to make my first batch of Blacksmith Soap. Thank you so much for generously sharing your recipe and methods.
> 
> Have you posted any photos of your trip?  I’m up for traveling vicariously!


Cool.  Looking forward to your report & photos.  
Not so much.  I really should get around to that!  I have hundreds of them.


Zany_in_CO said:


> Me too!


I do have to get around to doing so.


KiwiMoose said:


> So I'm thinking I will probably make this with the following changes:
> No dual lye, but with AVJ as the water content.
> My usual vegan recipe ( maybe increase the CO to 25% for extra cleansing?) Keep superfat to 2%
> 35% lye concentration ( I've never done over 40% except for when using the split method with coconut milk)
> ...


I am looking forward to you sharing your results.  Cavity molds is something I have not tried with this soap as yet; I await hearing about & seeing your soap.


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## Zing (Jun 28, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> So I'm thinking I will probably make this with the following changes:
> No dual lye, but with AVJ as the water content.
> My usual vegan recipe ( maybe increase the CO to 25% for extra cleansing?) Keep superfat to 2%
> 35% lye concentration ( I've never done over 40% except for when using the split method with coconut milk)
> ...


Well??!!  Any update?


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## AliOop (Jun 28, 2022)

earlene said:


> Cavity molds is something I have not tried with this soap as yet; I await hearing about & seeing your soap.


I make my version of your Blacksmith Soap in cavity molds because I try not to use my wire cutter for any soaps with additives (pumice in this case) that might damage the wires. 

I also like that I can leave them in the molds as long as needed without worrying about cut time. The last batch was made right before leaving on a trip, for instance.


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## earlene (Jun 28, 2022)

Great idea.  When I first started making blacksmith soap, I didn't even have a wire cutter, if I recall correctly.  Maybe I did, but if so it would have been my single slice Bud Cutter, which I don't bring it along when traveling, and some of those I made while traveling, so I used a bench scraper or kitchen knife, whichever was handy at the time.

But next time I make it, I'll definitely try some individual molds!  My brother has been dealing with cancer treatment, so he hasn't been doing much blacksmithing lately, so I have not made any in awhile.  He's done with treatment now, but still feeling worn out and very low energy.  Blacksmithing is too much for him at the moment.


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## AliOop (Jun 28, 2022)

Mobjack Bay said:


> When the prohibited words were said....


Would that be "kitten love"? 



earlene said:


> My brother has been dealing with cancer treatment, so he hasn't been doing much blacksmithing lately, so I have not made any in awhile.  He's done with treatment now, but still feeling worn out and very low energy.  Blacksmithing is too much for him at the moment.


I'm so sorry to hear that. I pray he regains his strength very soon!


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 28, 2022)

Zing said:


> Well??!!  Any update?


Hold yer horses!  I happen to have a very bad 'flu. I have been off work for the past 3 days and the weekend prior.  Apparently it's worse than Covid (which I still have not had yet)?

@earlene - much love to the bruv xx

@Mobjack Bay and @AliOop - kitten love are you two on about??


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## AliOop (Jun 28, 2022)

@KiwiMoose I am totally NOT laughing at your flu... my SIL has the same and has been sick for for over a week now. It's no joke.

But kitten love, girl, get better soon so you can get @Zing off yer back!


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## Zing (Jun 28, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> Hold yer horses!  I happen to have a very bad 'flu. I have been off work for the past 3 days and the weekend prior.  Apparently it's worse than Covid (which I still have not had yet)?


I've been chuckling over kitten love all day.
So gotta tell ya, my initial impulse was to be a smart aleck (something connecting the power of borax, handwashing, and preventing the spread of a so-called "flu")!  But seriously, I hope you can recover soon and that your puppers is a good nurse while you recuperate.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 28, 2022)

Sorry to hear about your brother @earlene . I hope he regains his strength soon.

@KiwiMoose it’s good to know that the flu didn’t affect your sense of humor.  Feel better!

I wouldn’t let myself double copy @KiwiMoose on my blacksmith soap so I had to use a loaf mold. I cut the loaf with my Bud cutter and didn’t have any problems. I’m thinking about carving designs into the lovely lacquer-like ash on the tops.


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 28, 2022)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Sorry to hear about your brother @earlene . I hope he regains his strength soon.
> 
> @KiwiMoose it’s good to know that the flu didn’t affect your sense of humor.  Feel better!
> 
> ...


WOW!  They look great!  Love that ash on top - never thought I'd say that, but it looks like part of the design.


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## Zing (Jun 29, 2022)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I wouldn’t let myself double copy @KiwiMoose on my blacksmith soap so I had to use a loaf mold. I cut the loaf with my Bud cutter and didn’t have any problems. I’m thinking about carving designs into the lovely lacquer-like ash on the tops.
> 
> View attachment 67414


Wowza!  You get first prize for best design using ash!!


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