# Why does liquid soap shampoo leave hair greasy?



## kcbitsupply (Mar 1, 2016)

I make a shampoo with 40% almond oil, 30% coconut oil, and 30% olive oil.  I make the soap with glycerin instead of water.  Then, I add 1% glycerin to the finished product.  I love this shampoo but my daughters complain that it makes their hair greasy.  I don't understand.  Does anyone have any insight?


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## cmzaha (Mar 1, 2016)

Because it is not shampoo, it is soap. A true shampoo is surfacant based not soap. Aside from the ph of soap which damages hair, soap will leave a scum on hair that collects are the gunk from the air, even with a vinegar rinse you do not remove all the soap scum. Plus this is an oil based product and even with 0 superfat there is going to be un-saponified oils. You really are not doing a service to your daughters by making them liquid soap shampoo, it will over time damage the hair and it cannot be corrected after true damage is done. Sorry, beside eczema this is my second biggest rant subject. I remember people coming into my Beauty Shop with gunked up hair from using soap and expected me to fix the damage and get it clean. I could get it clean with a strong detergent based shampoo but could not correct the damage other than cutting the hair. Hair is very resilient until we damage it then it simply cannot be fixed, other than cutting off the damaged hair.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 1, 2016)

^^^

Exactly this.  It's not shampoo you are making.  You are making liquid soap.


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## kcbitsupply (Mar 1, 2016)

Hmmm.  I have heard this before but my hair has never felt better since using this soap on my hair.  Store shampoo was a nightmare for me.  At this point, I guess I'm confused.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 1, 2016)

There are many who have tried and failed using soap as shampoo.  You will also find those who claim soap as a shampoo works fine for them.  I would say that if your daughters are already having trouble then that's likely a sign.   Your recipe also contains too much CO which would make it way too cleansing.


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## kcbitsupply (Mar 1, 2016)

Well, that must be why it works for some but not all.  I guess everybody's hair is different but the previous poster scared me about ruining my hair!  I guess if my hair feels and looks good, I shouldn't worry?  That really got me upset.


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## penelopejane (Mar 1, 2016)

It takes time to show the damage the soap is doing to your hair.  Eventually you will understand what others know to be true.


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## Seawolfe (Mar 1, 2016)

I mix it up. Some days I use my salt bars (you heard that, my hair likes salt bars), some days I use regular shampoo, some days I just rinse with conditioner.
I think its important to go with what the hair likes - its not hard to tell. But I do believe what Carolyn says. Back when people used soap soap for hair, they washed it very rarely.
My beautician BFF doesn't even shampoo her hair much any more, she usually rubs in conditioner and rinses. Some days she adds a tiny bit of shampoo.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 1, 2016)

My mom owned a hair salon for 25 years and said not to do it.  I tried but it was terrible.  Color faded, it was gummy.   I'll stick with commercial shampoo for my hair.


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## kumudini (Mar 1, 2016)

While I believe the folks who say soap damages their hair, my hair is still loving it after almost a year. When I went to India, I forgot to take my shampoo bar and ended up using actual shampoo with conditioner, the L'oreal ones for dry and frizzy hair( my natural hair type without maintenance) and still my hair ended up very dry and straw like, very difficult to manage. Only when I came back home and got back to my shampoo bar and ACV rinse regimen did my hair start looking healthy again. It's been one month and my hair is back to normal. Guess my hair is just different. Oh, my shampoo bar recipe is also quite different from anything I saw here.


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## kcbitsupply (Mar 1, 2016)

Gee, I'm depressed, lol, as I don't know what to use on my hair!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 1, 2016)

Use what works for you. That might be a lye-based product. It might not. No need for getting upset or anything by all this - it's not worth overreacting over

If it's working for you but not for your girls, you could carry on with it and they stop. If it stops working for you, you can stop using it. Simples.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 1, 2016)

I agree with TEG. And as I stated before some people have no issues but others do. My husband has used it on his hair for almost 6 years. Then again he doesn't have a lot of hair.  

Nothing to get depressed about though.


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## Yooper (Mar 1, 2016)

My husband always uses soap on his hair.  He often uses my salt bars (80% CO, 10% Castor oil, 10% sweet almond oil, coconut milk for the liquid, 20% superfat) on his hair.  He uses my liquid soap also, and mixes it up.

My hair hates all soap on my hair- except for those same salt bars!  If I even use my "shampoo bars", it makes my hair sticky.  I blamed it on the superfat- but I can easily use my salt bars on my hair with good results.  

I think we are all different- some dry, some oily, some frizzy, etc- so do what works for you.  Most people use shampoo, and are accustomed to that, but since we quit using shampoo years ago,we don't seem to have any issues using certain homemade soap.


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## SugarLump (Apr 22, 2016)

*My two cents*



kcbitsupply said:


> I make a shampoo with 40% almond oil, 30% coconut oil, and 30% olive oil.  I make the soap with glycerin instead of water.  Then, I add 1% glycerin to the finished product.  I love this shampoo but my daughters complain that it makes their hair greasy.  I don't understand.  Does anyone have any insight?



I highly recommend you purchase the book, Liquid Soap Making by Catherine Failor. In her book she explicitly explains that the reason why most homemade liquid shampoo or shampoo bars leave hair greasy is because there is not a high enough proportion of Coconut oil in comparison to soft oils like Olive oil etc. I am sure you are aware that Coconut oil is known for its cleansing abilities in soap making. So in order to enjoy your homeade liquid shampoo without the greasiness, I would suggest increasing the percentage of coconut oil in your shampoo recipe.


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## Susie (Apr 22, 2016)

While Catherine Failor was the first person to enable home soapers to make good liquid soap, her methods are outdated.  We have good lye calculators now.  There is just no need to use a negative superfat and then neutralize.


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## ngian (Apr 22, 2016)

I also think that the greasy hair feeling is due to the high ph of alkaline soaps (NaOH or KOH) that (mostly medium to long) hair don't like at all.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 22, 2016)

Susie said:


> While Catherine Failor was the first person to enable home soapers to make good liquid soap, her methods are outdated.  We have good lye calculators now.  There is just no need to use a negative superfat and then neutralize.



She did her own lye calculations, as do I, and the results are exactly the same as what publicly available software gives you.

The are popular differences in technique. Some are sensible simplifications and others are slightly insane and would be unethical to recommend in a book.


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## Arimara (Apr 23, 2016)

kcbitsupply said:


> Gee, I'm depressed, lol, as I don't know what to use on my hair!



What do you mean? :-?


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## SugarLump (Apr 25, 2016)

Susie said:


> While Catherine Failor was the first person to enable home soapers to make good liquid soap, her methods are outdated.  We have good lye calculators now.  There is just no need to use a negative superfat and then neutralize.



That isn't the point I was trying to make. The OP was asking why her shampoo left her hair greasy. I was merely trying to help her understand that her issue may have come from the percentage of soft or hard oils in her formulation.  And while I can tell you are a very experienced soap maker, the OP may not be. I think that whether you consider Ms. Failor's methods outdated or not, the instruction she gives in her books can be a boon to the less knowledgeable, inexperienced soap maker.


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## Susie (Apr 25, 2016)

My issue is that if I had only had Catherine Failor as a source of instruction as a new liquid soap maker, I would have thrown my hands up and given up.  However, I benefited from other sources of information.  I can, now, appreciate some of her info.  But she does not make her info readily available in a methodical format for the new soaper.   And her methods are, I repeat, unnecessary and outdated.  We have ways to ensure complete saponification that do not involve making lye heavy soap and then neutralizing.  

I am not saying that she did not contribute GREATLY to the home soapmaker for making liquid soap.  She did.  It is just that we have much easier, and less intimidating to new soapers, methods of making liquid soap.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 25, 2016)

Susie said:


> We have ways to ensure complete saponification that do not involve making lye heavy soap and then neutralizing.



You don't have any way to do that. The only difference is that you don't care whether you get complete saponification, but if you did you would have to use a lye excess. How else would you do it?


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## Susie (Apr 25, 2016)

I make soap using a reliable modern calculator.  The only time I do not get complete saponification of the _oils_ is when I voluntarily and purposefully choose to use a superfat.  

Using a lye excess leaves you with unsaponified _lye_ (whether NaOH or KOH).  Why would you choose to have lye heavy soap that you then need to neutralize?  That is making extra work for yourself.  And having those extra steps (especially with lye heavy soap!) is enough to frighten new soapers off.  You should talk to a few after they have seen a video of that whole process!  

One of my goals here is to de-mystify soapmaking, especially liquid soapmaking, to help newbies feel less intimidated on trying it.  I am sorry if your goals differ from mine, TOMH.


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## ngian (Apr 25, 2016)

Well Susie I think that TOMH is saying that we can never have complete saponification as you have stated in his quote because we never know the real sap values of the oils we use in every batch,except if we make a lye heavy soap. 

I guess you meant to say in the first place that we can have better control of a small superfat with modern calculators. 

Friendly Nikos


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 25, 2016)

Susie said:


> I make soap using a reliable modern calculator.  The only time I do not get complete saponification of the _oils_ is when I voluntarily and purposefully choose to use a superfat.



I'm not talking about a goal, a preference or an opinion. I'm trying to point out where you uncharacteristically have your facts wrong.

There is NO difference between your lye calculations and Failor's. There is no such thing as a "modern, reliable calculator."

1000 g oil

20% coconut is 200 x .183 = 36.6 g NaOH
80% palm is 800 x .142 = 113.6 g NaOH

Total 150.2 g NaOH

That's how I figure it, how Failor figures it, and how YOU figure it. There's nothing more modern or accurate. So when you say that the book is outdated because we have reliable lye calculators now, those words make no sense.

Failor calculates a lye excess because she wants to ensure complete saponification, while you don't calculate a lye excess because you don't care about complete saponification -- or if you do care then you're going about it the wrong way because your lye calculator doesn't do that.

The SAP value of coconut oil is normally between .178 and .188. The SAP value of palm oil is normally between .135 and .146. What are your oils? You don't know, I don't know and the lye calculator doesn't know. That number I just calculated for no lye discount could be -- and likely is -- off base depending on the real SAP values of my oils and how pure and fresh my caustic is. Calculating a so-called "0% superfat" can still result in a significant superfat or lye excess. That's why lye discount is a better term.

That is the exact and only reason Failor calculates a lye excess to ensure complete saponification. That's why your claim to know if you have complete saponification is mistaken. Your lye calculator is only estimating. And that's why we calculate a lye discount when making soap. Not to get 5% residual oil in the soap, but to get more than 0%.

So yeah, current techniques are simpler and work and maybe are best, but it's just a different approach. And lest we feel too superior, what has taken root now is dissolving KOH in glycerin (not saying that you do it), which is ridiculous.

It's just crazy to heat glycerin to 200-250 degrees, add KOH flakes that threaten to make it boil over, and turn it into a solution that's both scalding hot and highly caustic. You can take that same amount of glycerin and combine it with 50% concentration lye instead of straight KOH and it works exactly the same way.

Adding a solvent to the saponification process is a good idea though. Failor has an analogous solvent method that uses alcohol, but glycerin or propylene glycol are less trouble. So that's an improvement.


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## Susie (Apr 25, 2016)

OK, fair enough.  We are all just estimating.  However, I will stand by the techniques/methods being simpler now.  It is just not necessary to take all those extra steps with all those extra ingredients.  And I am going to stick to what I said about Catherine Failor's book not being laid out well.  It really is a nightmare for newbies.  If ever there was a book that could do with a re-edit and update, that is it.  She really does have some good info, just very difficult to root it out when you are new.

BTW, I mix my KOH with half the total liquid amount in water, then mix the glycerin in with the oils.  Again, avoiding an extra step where it makes little or no difference to the outcome.  Glad you agree with that one.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 25, 2016)

Susie said:


> BTW, I mix my KOH with half the total liquid amount in water, then mix the glycerin in with the oils.  Again, avoiding an extra step where it makes little or no difference to the outcome.  Glad you agree with that one.



Yep, I knew you weren't using the dangerous approach. The alternative I sometimes hear is to replace "1 part KOH, 3 parts glycerin" with "1 part KOH, 1 part water, 2 parts glycerin." I'm down with dissolving the KOH in water, but I think it may be counterproductive to lower the amount of glycerin when you do so. I've been trying some things and what is looking good right now is "1 part KOH, 1 part water, 3 parts glycerin". Melt oils, add glycerin to oils, add lye and stir. Particularly convenient to SB for 60 seconds or so. Then you can walk away and get the same easy results without the scalding caustic.


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## SugarLump (May 1, 2016)

Susie said:


> However, I will stand by the techniques/methods being simpler now.  It is just not necessary to take all those extra steps with all those extra ingredients.  And I am going to stick to what I said about Catherine Failor's book not being laid out well.  It really is a nightmare for newbies.  If ever there was a book that could do with a re-edit and update, that is it.  She really does have some good info, just very difficult to root it out when you are new.



I am sorry, but I disagree. I am a "newbie" and I find her books fascinating. They have given me so much information and have helped me understand the process a lot better. I think it just depends on your point of view and personality. I am a nerd. I love science and learning. I don't just want to get to the end result (soap), I want to understand WHY and HOW I got there.  For me if I understand the process and the mechanics of it all, it helps me to master the technique, and I have confidence in my work and the end result. 

But to each there own. But I agree with TOMH, about dissolving KOH in glycerine.  Scary.


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## lsg (May 2, 2016)

Unless you have very soft water, liquid soap will not work well in your hair.  The soap does not rinse out of hair thoroughly and leaves hair feeling gummy.


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## Vandam (May 7, 2018)

My two cents on this would be the other products your daughters are using on their hair. If the products contain silicone or non-water soluble silicones, you need a soap with sls or other cleansers to wash it out. If you don't the natural soap can't clean. Look up curly girl method on naturally curly (sorry I don't have the link)it may answer your question.


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## shunt2011 (May 7, 2018)

Vandam said:


> My two cents on this would be the other products your daughters are using on their hair. If the products contain silicone or non-water soluble silicones, you need a soap with sls or other cleansers to wash it out. If you don't the natural soap can't clean. Look up curly girl method on naturally curly (sorry I don't have the link)it may answer your question.



This post is 2 years old.


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## VonnieDeak (May 11, 2018)

One thing when I am using www.soapee.com lye calculator I don't superfat any or use 1%.  I have noticed when I superfat at high amounts that my hair is greasy.  Here is a good recipe that I use for liquid shampoo that isn't greasy:  www.suchsoaps.com


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## shunt2011 (May 12, 2018)

VonnieDeak said:


> One thing when I am using www.soapee.com lye calculator I don't superfat any or use 1%.  I have noticed when I superfat at high amounts that my hair is greasy.  Here is a good recipe that I use for liquid shampoo that isn't greasy:  www.suchsoaps.com



Again, this post is 2 years old. Start a new one please and thanks!


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