# Dual Alkali Soaps (NaOH & KOH)



## ngian (Nov 2, 2016)

Hello everyone.

After reading some posts over the forum:

Castile 95%NaOH 5%KOH calculations help 

Cold Processed - Combination of NaOh and KOH 

I had also made a small experimental batch.

The two recipes where:

*Olive pomace:* (*95%*)
*Coconut: *(*5%*)
with EDTA 0.5% and paprika infused in Olive Oil

But their main difference was that the one was made with *100% NaOH* (along with a few drops of yellow pigment) and the other one was made with *95% NaOH* and *5% KOH* (with no extra color).







I used them a few days ago after 4 months of curing (didn't have the time to test them earlier) and I can see what DeeAnna has already experienced by a dual alkali CP soap.

Although I had used 5% CO in order for me to use the one alkali (NaOH) soap (because I hate Castille), their difference is visible.

The NaOH soap doesn't form bubbles in my hands right away but it leaves this weird jelly - soap - film thing that when I introduce a little more water and friction (after I park the soap on the soap dish) then the bubbles arise. With the dual alkali soap, some bubbles start to form in my hands before I park the soap on the soap dish, and it behaves as if a little more Coconut Oil was present in the recipe.

So KOH is making the soap easier to dilute, as the same happens with the shortest fatty acids (myristic, lauric), and that is an enabler for me to make another soap that will have *80% OO* and *20% Palm/Lard* made with *90% NaOH* & *10% KOH*. I guess the result will be promising...


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 2, 2016)

A great comparison of the two - thanks for that. I think next time I'm making a high OO soap I'll use 5% koh


----------



## Susie (Nov 2, 2016)

I was curious if this dual lye thing had any effect on regular recipes.  Turns out it makes much larger bubbles and "frothier" lather in a high lard soap.  I really am amazed.  I have two batches out to testers right now to verify if it is just my imagination or not.


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 2, 2016)

I think the difference of adding KOH is most obvious with a high oleic soap (high in olive, high oleic sunflower, HO safflower, avocado, etc), as Nikos explains.

But I agree with Susie -- I also see a change in the lather from a high stearic-palmitic soap too (high in lard, tallow, palm, butters). The added KOH => fluffier bubbles and quicker to lather. The soap behaves as if it has more coconut oil than it actually does. That said, I also wonder if the placebo effect is influencing me, so I'm curious to hear what your testers say, Susie.

I doubt the KOH will do much to a soap high in lauric-myristic acid (coconut, palm kernel, babassu), because that type of soap is already pretty soluble in water.


----------



## Susie (Nov 2, 2016)

I used my usual recipe of 65% Lard, 15% CO, 15% OO, 5% Castor Oil, and 5% superfat so that we would have a test with the ONLY difference being the 5% KOH.  We'll see.  

I warned my testers that I would be having them stop using a bar in the middle to try a new one, so I should hear today or tomorrow.

ETA:  I had the hubby do the test with me timing.  The dual lye soap made bubbles 6 seconds faster and they were much larger bubbles.


----------



## ngian (Nov 2, 2016)

Well it is known that KOH makes more soluble salts of fatty acids meaning that the soap needs less water and friction in order to start its solubility. And by introducing KOH in a CP NaOH soap we actually adjust the soap bar's solubility (maybe just like sugars and castor oil do).

Kevin Dunn has somehow categorized the three bases in the order of solubility from difficult to easier:

1) Sodium salts of fatty acids are water soluble created by the strongest base NaOH
2) Potassium salts of fatty acids are even more water soluble and are created by the also strong base KOH
3) Ammonium salts of fatty acids are extremely water soluble and are created by the weak base NH3 - Ammonia (gas)

(I think that this is what he has described in general at Chapter 8 & 10 of his book, correct me if I'm wrong).


----------



## Scooter (Dec 22, 2016)

I have never made Castile soap but am thinking of doing a batch with 5% KOH. I'm very interested in following this thread and also hearing about people's experiences using 5% KOH with a typical 3- or 4-oil soap recipe. From other sources I have read, using 5% KOH with 100% OO can shorten the cure time from a year down to 8 or 9 months. Is that true? Thanks for all the information!

Scooter


----------



## penelopejane (Mar 3, 2018)

Susie said:


> I used my usual recipe of 65% Lard, 15% CO, 15% OO, 5% Castor Oil, and 5% superfat so that we would have a test with the ONLY difference being the 5% KOH.  We'll see.
> 
> I warned my testers that I would be having them stop using a bar in the middle to try a new one, so I should hear today or tomorrow.
> 
> ETA:  I had the hubby do the test with me timing.  The dual lye soap made bubbles 6 seconds faster and they were much larger bubbles.



Hi Susie, 
Did your testers get back to you with their opinions on the KOH soap?

Do you use KOH in all of your soaps now?


----------



## Susie (Mar 4, 2018)

I use KOH @ 5% in all my soaps, yes.  But I am a bubbleholic.  Everyone agrees with me about the bubbles.


----------



## lilyandlove (Mar 5, 2018)

This is amazing. I've recently gotten into making liquid soap, so I have tons of KOH on hand (dual lye liquid soap maker here!). I'm super excited to try dual lye bar soaps!!!!


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 5, 2018)

I make all my soaps, other than salt bars, with dual lye and really like them. Since I go low with the CO I can use all the help I can get with bubbles.


----------



## DeeAnna (Mar 5, 2018)

I'm another convert. It's really easy to do if you have the KOH and I like the results a lot. I weight my 50% NaOH masterbatch in one pitcher, measure out the extra water (or beer, milk, etc.) in another, and put the dry KOH into that second pitcher. It dissolves fast in that much liquid.


----------



## isha (Mar 5, 2018)

So lucky to have found this article.. I was planning to make another batch of castile soap. But this time with rice bran oil.
Wil try using this method..

Anyone has any experience with 100 rice bran oil? What shld i expect n need to know before i make this.


----------



## DeeAnna (Mar 5, 2018)

It's high in linoleic acid, so it may be more prone to rancidity. For that reason, I personally wouldn't make a mock castile with all RBO. But YMMV -- there's absolutely nothing wrong with trying it.


----------



## penelopejane (Mar 5, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> I'm another convert. It's really easy to do if you have the KOH and I like the results a lot. I weight my 50% NaOH masterbatch in one pitcher, measure out the extra water (or beer, milk, etc.) in another, and put the dry KOH into that second pitcher. It dissolves fast in that much liquid.



I masterbatch my KOH separately. I do this because the amounts of KOH in each recipe are so small that doing a 50% masterbatch means I can weigh out twice the amount a bit more accurately. I now have a scale that’s a bit more accurate but keep doing it because it’s easier for me anyway.


----------



## DeeAnna (Mar 5, 2018)

Yeah, I can see that, PenelopeJane. Good thought!

Also if the KOH is at all dusty or static-y, using masterbatched KOH solution nearly eliminates the problem of dealing with the dust and static.


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 5, 2018)

I also masterbatch my KOH


----------



## SaltedFig (Mar 5, 2018)

I keep my working KOH in masterbatch form.


----------



## earlene (Mar 6, 2018)

isha said:


> So lucky to have found this article.. I was planning to make another batch of castile soap. But this time with rice bran oil.
> Wil try using this method..
> 
> Anyone has any experience with 100 rice bran oil? What shld i expect n need to know before i make this.



Yes, in July of 2017 I made two batches of 100%RBO soap.  One with NaOH and water as my lye solution, using a 40% lye concentration and zero SF.  It gelled via CPOP, but I had to CPOP at a slightly higher temp the second time as with the oven below 100F and the high lye concentration, it only partially gelled.  So I put it back in the oven at a higher temp to get it to complete the gel.

The second batch was with vinegar & NaOH (and water) as my lye solution, using 31.3% lye concentration and zero SF.  This one gelled completely the first time with CPOP, but I started out with the oven at a higher temp (154F then turned off when I put the soap inside the oven) due to my previous soap, just to be sure.

Both soaps also have EDTA & ROE (ROE in the oil when opened) to ward off DOS and help with soap scum (the EDTA does dual duty).   Both are fragrance-free.  One is uncolored and one is colored with yellow, so I can differentiate between the two.

Both soaps are now 7 months old and IMO not yet at their possible prime.  I did not bring any with me on this trip, so can't give you an up-to-date report on how they are performing, but so far (as of about 3 weeks ago) they have not shown any sign whatsoever of becoming DOSy.  I currently don't recall how they compare to Castile, but IMO it's too soon to tell if I like or dislike this as a single oil soap.  I don't have any notes on performance at hand (I am not at home.)

I have not yet tried 100% RBO as a dual lye soap.  I wish I had done so when I did these two batches, buy I was going for a comparison between added SA (thus the vinegar) and plain.

What you can expect is that with a higher lye concentration, it traces fairly quickly.  My [40% Lye] went from emulsion at 2-2 1/2 minutes to light trace at about 3 minutes and then medium trace at about 5 minutes after just sitting when I stopped stirring at 3 minutes.  I did not make a notation about how long it took the same soap with a lower lye concentration to come to trace, but if it had been remarkable, I would have made a note of it.  

Both soaps are quite hard, but not being near them I can't give a more objective report on hardness than that.  'Quite hard' is really a subjective term when not backed up by something tangible/measurable.


----------



## Steve85569 (Mar 6, 2018)

I made both last April. One batch with Pomace OO and one with RBO. Both had a high lye concentration and a low SF just to keep things on an even plain.
No DOS on either. The OO did "green up" a little so I can tell them apart by just looking at them. Since they were both single lye soaps they are both snotty and seem to clean the same.

Since I am not a big fan of the castile snot I prolly won't repeat that experiment.


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 6, 2018)

earlene said:


> Yes, in July of 2017 I made two batches of 100%RBO soap.  One with NaOH and water as my lye solution, using a 40% lye concentration and zero SF.  It gelled via CPOP, but I had to CPOP at a slightly higher temp the second time as with the oven below 100F and the high lye concentration, it only partially gelled.  So I put it back in the oven at a higher temp to get it to complete the gel.
> 
> The second batch was with vinegar & NaOH (and water) as my lye solution, using 31.3% lye concentration and zero SF.  This one gelled completely the first time with CPOP, but I started out with the oven at a higher temp (154F then turned off when I put the soap inside the oven) due to my previous soap, just to be sure.


 Quick question are you using the vinegar to create your superfat or using extra NaOH to react the vinegar creating sodium acetate? I prefer to control my superfat by reacting the vinegar and I do really like the hardness the sodium acetate creates in the soap. Since my main recipes are already hard soaps I always go with the dual lye system now. I use EDTA and BHT to ward off dos


----------



## Steve85569 (Mar 6, 2018)

Not earlene but...
I use reacted vinegar as one half of my water in my recipes to control the SF and extra heat generated in making the sodium acetate.


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 6, 2018)

Steve85569 said:


> Not earlene but...
> I use reacted vinegar as one half of my water in my recipes to control the SF and extra heat generated in making the sodium acetate.


It will certainly work but it just seems like more math to me, maybe I am looking at it wrong


----------



## earlene (Mar 6, 2018)

cmzaha said:


> Quick question are you using the vinegar to create your superfat or using extra NaOH to react the vinegar creating sodium acetate? I prefer to control my superfat by reacting the vinegar and I do really like the hardness the sodium acetate creates in the soap. Since my main recipes are already hard soaps I always go with the dual lye system now. I use EDTA and BHT to ward off dos


I am using it to create Sodium Acetate for hardening soap.  I add enough NaOH to offset the vinegar, so my SF should not be effected by the added vinegar, when my calculations are correct (which I try my best to make sure they are.)  I use TOMH's method as he posts about here.

BTW, that soap I mentioned is zero SF, because I always do my test single oil soaps at zero SF.  And that's what these are. Testing single oil, plus testing the same with SA via vinegar.


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 6, 2018)

earlene said:


> I am using it to create Sodium Acetate for hardening soap.  I add enough NaOH to offset the vinegar, so my SF should not be effected by the added vinegar, when my calculations are correct (which I try my best to make sure they are.)  I use TOMH's method as he posts about here.
> 
> BTW, that soap I mentioned is zero SF, because I always do my test single oil soaps at zero SF.  And that's what these are. Testing single oil, plus testing the same with SA via vinegar.


I do the same thing and I happen to like 0 superfat for my own soap


----------



## isha (Mar 7, 2018)

So how do i determine what extra to add when using dual lye witj ctric acid.
Lets say oil weight 300 gms.
N naoh 39 gms
Koh 3.3 gms

Now if i decide to add citrix acid at 1%.
How do i calculate its weight and should i increase KoH or NaoH?
As both have different metrics for calculating the extra weight..

As for my understanding
Naoh is 6.42 gms for 10 gms citric acid
Koh is 8.24 gms for 10 gms for citric acid

Correct me if im wrong TIA


----------



## BattleGnome (Mar 7, 2018)

https://classicbells.com/soap/dualLye.html

DeeAnna has suggestions. 

I tend to have more NaOH around, so I calculate in that direction. My mix order goes water, citric, NaOH, KOH.


----------



## isha (Mar 7, 2018)

Thanks a lot. I shouldve read it first


----------



## isha (Mar 7, 2018)

So i made a 100 %olive castile dual lye with citric acis
N 100 %rice bran  castile dual lye with citric acid
Just a test batch will post the results


----------



## penelopejane (Mar 7, 2018)

isha said:


> So i made a 100 %olive castile dual lye with citric acis
> N 100 %rice bran  castile dual lye with citric acid
> Just a test batch will post the results



100% ricebran is a single oil ricebran soap.
It is not Castile.
Castile is the name for a soap made from 100% olive oil.


----------



## Saffron (Mar 7, 2018)

Steve85569 said:


> I made both last April. One batch with Pomace OO and one with RBO. Both had a high lye concentration and a low SF just to keep things on an even plain.
> No DOS on either. The OO did "green up" a little so I can tell them apart by just looking at them. Since they were both single lye soaps they are both snotty and seem to clean the same.
> 
> Since I am not a big fan of the castile snot I prolly won't repeat that experiment.


Hi, were they dual lye or just NaOH soaps?


----------



## isha (Mar 7, 2018)

Saffron said:


> Hi, were they dual lye or just NaOH soaps?


its mentioned they were single lye soaps


----------



## Saffron (Mar 7, 2018)

isha said:


> its mentioned they were single lye soaps


So it does! Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## isha (Mar 12, 2018)

Im planning to make 100% coconut oil soap with 30% sf... 

Is there a need to use dual lye? Or wud a naoh lye be just fine. As it is coconut oil soap. 
Im wondering if single lye or dual lye wud make any differnce in the finished bar..
Would love to know ur experience if anyone has tried


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 12, 2018)

No there is no reason to use dual lye 100% CO is a very soluble soap on it's own. The purpose of the dual lye is to add a bit solubility to high stearic and palmatic and to help cut the gelatinous aspect of high oleic soaps such as OO soaps.


----------



## isha (Mar 13, 2018)

Thanks


----------



## Soapprentice (Mar 13, 2018)

isha said:


> Im planning to make 100% coconut oil soap with 30% sf...
> 
> Is there a need to use dual lye? Or wud a naoh lye be just fine. As it is coconut oil soap.
> Im wondering if single lye or dual lye wud make any differnce in the finished bar..
> Would love to know ur experience if anyone has tried


I do think 30 sf is too much and will melt pretty soon.


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 13, 2018)

The superfat does not really have much to do with the solubility of the soap. CO soap is very soluble which is the reason it lathers in salt water and is called Boater's or Sailor's soap. I would not superfat at 30%


----------



## Nanditasr (Mar 30, 2018)

cmzaha said:


> No there is no reason to use dual lye 100% CO is a very soluble soap on it's own. The purpose of the dual lye is to add a bit solubility to high stearic and palmatic and to help cut the gelatinous aspect of high oleic soaps such as OO soaps.


I can understand cutting the gelatinous aspect of high oleic soaps, but why would one want to make a high stearic/palmitic soap _more_ soluble -- isn't a harder, less soluble soap more long-lasting and therefore more desirable?


----------



## BrewerGeorge (Mar 30, 2018)

Nanditasr said:


> I can understand cutting the gelatinous aspect of high oleic soaps, but why would one want to make a high stearic/palmitic soap _more_ soluble -- isn't a harder, less soluble soap more long-lasting and therefore more desirable?


If you try a 100% lard soap, it basically doesn't lather.  It doesn't slime like 100% olive, either, it just sort of rubs off on you like a thin, slippery lotion.  If you have a poof or washcloth you can work that into a bit of a lather with tiny bubbles (Anybody else old enough to remember Don Ho?) but it's all-but impossible to make a noticeable lather with hands only - and that is with softened water.   It still cleans and leaves the skin nice afterward, but I personally find the lack of bubbles to be very frustrating.

Increasing the solubility with a bit of KOH might make 100% lard soap a lot more pleasant to use.  I'd given up on 100% lard, but I think I'm going to try that now.


----------



## Nanditasr (Mar 30, 2018)

BrewerGeorge said:


> ... It still cleans and leaves the skin nice afterward, but I personally find the lack of bubbles to be very frustrating.
> Increasing the solubility with a bit of KOH might make 100% lard soap a lot more pleasant to use.  I'd given up on 100% lard, but I think I'm going to try that now.


Thanks; that's interesting to know. I don't have tallow or lard here, but I use palmolein.
Yes, I rather like the waxy feel of a palm bar. I also find that it lathers much better after about three months of curing. But yes, a little more lather (without having to use CO) would be nice. In my case, I'm going to try ammonia instead of KOH.


----------



## DeeAnna (Mar 30, 2018)

_"...why would one want to make a high stearic/palmitic soap more soluble -- isn't a harder, less soluble soap more long-lasting and therefore more desirable?..."_

Sure less solubility and physical hardness and long life are desirable ... up to a point.

The added 5% KOH doesn't make the soap obviously softer IMO, but I concede that's my subjective opinion -- I'm not measuring hardness with a penetrometer.

The benefit of a small amount of KOH for a high palmitic-stearic soap (aka a high percentage of lard or palm) is the lather starts quicker and develops into a nice handful of suds with less scrubbing on the bar. The KOH essentially takes the place of using more coconut oil to get abundant faster lather. The lather of a 5% KOH soap cured for a month or so is comparable to a recipe with maybe 20-25% coconut oil versus my preferred 10%-15%. A 5% KOH soap with lower CO has the benefit of not drying my skin out.

Another way of looking at it is the 5% KOH in a high lard recipe reduces the cure time needed to get the lather quality -- a month or so for 5% KOH versus a year or more for the same recipe with no KOH.


----------



## Nanditasr (Mar 30, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> ... the lather starts quicker and develops into a nice handful of suds with less scrubbing on the bar...The lather of a 5% KOH soap cured for a month or so is comparable to a recipe with maybe 20-25% coconut oil versus my preferred 10%-15%...the 5% KOH in a high lard recipe reduces the cure time needed to get the lather quality -- a month or so for 5% KOH versus a year or more for the same recipe with no KOH.



Thanks; I'm now sold on the idea! And I'll try ammonia instead of KOH -- go where no (wo)man has gone before.

So, I guess, using your "geeky soaper method 2", if the recipe needed 100 grams of NaOH, I will now have to use 95 grams of NaOH and (0.875 x 5 grams) of ammonia? (The 0.875 being 35/40 for the molar weights.)
And I assume we're talking about pure, industrial strength ammonia here, not the store-bought one? (Because the latter would bring it down to 0.875 x 5 grams x 5%, which would be really low.)


----------



## DeeAnna (Mar 30, 2018)

I have only given advice about using 5% ammonia solution -- the typical cleaning ammonia one can buy at the grocery or hardware store. If you want to use a more concentrated ammonia solution, that is up to you. While it may work well and make fine soap, I am uncomfortable giving advice from afar about using more concentrated ammonia solution, so I am respectfully bowing out of this discussion. This is the second time this year that I've been asked for advice about using unusual additives that carry health risks, and I realize I have to set some boundaries to feel comfortable giving advice at all. My apologies.


----------



## Nanditasr (Mar 31, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> I have only given advice about using 5% ammonia solution -- the typical cleaning ammonia one can buy at the grocery or hardware store. If you want to use a more concentrated ammonia solution, that is up to you. While it may work well and make fine soap, I am uncomfortable giving advice from afar about using more concentrated ammonia solution, so I am respectfully bowing out of this discussion. This is the second time this year that I've been asked for advice about using unusual additives that carry health risks, and I realize I have to set some boundaries to feel comfortable giving advice at all. My apologies.



Thanks. All this while, I thought that the molar mass of "pure" ammonia was 35, but I separately googled "molar mass of ammonia" and "molar mass of ammonia water", and I found that the _latter_ is 35. So I'll go with the 5% solution.


----------



## DeeAnna (Mar 31, 2018)

Yes, that's right. You're not dealing with ammonia (NH3), which is a corrosive, toxic gas at room temperature and pressure. Instead, you're dealing with ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH) solution which is a liquid, not a gas.


----------



## Nanditasr (May 20, 2018)

I made a non-CO soap, and I added some ammonia instead of KOH. It's turned out fantastic -- not sure I ever want to use coconut oil again!


----------



## ngian (May 20, 2018)

That is interesting. At what percentage did you use ammonium hydroxide? 





Nanditasr said:


> I made a non-CO soap, and I added some ammonia instead of KOH. It's turned out fantastic -- not sure I ever want to use coconut oil again!


----------



## Nanditasr (May 21, 2018)

ngian said:


> That is interesting. At what percentage did you use ammonium hydroxide?


If the recipe needs 100 grams of NaOH, I now use 95 grams of NaOH and (0.875 x 5 grams) of ammonium hydroxide solution. The solution referred to here is the 5% strength one that is available for household use, I understand.

Edit: To change the term "ammonia" to "ammonium hydroxide" in response to DeeAnna's subsequent post. Also note that my calculations may have been off (if you refer to DeeAnna's post). Anyway, what I used worked for me!


----------



## DeeAnna (May 21, 2018)

Nanditasr said:


> If the recipe needs 100 grams of NaOH, I now use 95 grams of NaOH and (0.875 x 5 grams) of ammonia. The ammonia referred to here is the 5% strength one that is available for household use, I understand.



The number 0.875 is the stoichiometric ratio of _pure _ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH) to _pure _NaOH. You aren't using 100% NH4OH -- you're using 5% NH4OH. The actual conversion ratio for pure NaOH and 5% NH4OH solution is this --

35.04 / 39.997 X 5 / 100 = 0.044
In other words, 1 gram of 5% NH4OH solution is equivalent to 0.044 grams of NaOH. 

To state it another way --
39.997 / 35.04 X 100 / 5 = 22.829
In other words, 1 gram of NaOH is equivalent to 22.829 grams of 5% NH4OH solution.

To go back to your example -- If you reduce the required NaOH weight by 5 grams, you'd need to add this amount of 5% NH4OH solution to make up the difference -- 

grams 5% NH4OH solution = grams NaOH X 22.829 
= 5 X 22.829 = 114.15 g

Please do not just use the word _ammonia _in this context to avoid confusing other people. It's ammonium hydroxide or ammonia solution. Even you were confused earlier -- why perpetuate this misunderstanding?


----------



## Nanditasr (May 21, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> The number 0.875 is the stoichiometric ratio of _pure _ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH) to _pure _NaOH. You aren't using 100% NH4OH -- you're using 5% NH4OH. The actual conversion ratio for pure NaOH and 5% NH4OH solution is this...



Based on posts 43 to 46, I went with the calculation I interpreted and stated in my last post (#49). Anyway, despite the botched-up calculations, it's turned out pretty well. Thanks for clarifying.



DeeAnna said:


> Please do not just use the word _ammonia _in this context to avoid confusing other people. It's ammonium hydroxide or ammonia solution. Even you were confused earlier -- why perpetuate this misunderstanding?


Not so much that I was confused -- I was _confusing others_ by using the term _ammonia_ when I meant NH4OH. Edited.


----------



## cmzaha (May 21, 2018)

Think I shall just stick to dual NaOH and KOH, I really do not think my customers will like seeing Ammonium Hydroxide or Ammonia Solution on their label. That would just take more explaining


----------



## DeeAnna (May 21, 2018)

Okay, here's the straight poop about using 5% household ammonia solution in soap for those who want to try it ... https://classicbells.com/soap/ammoniumHydroxide.html   This article is a rough draft, so if you have questions or corrections, please let me know.

@Nanditasr -- I have gotten the impression that you have enough chemistry and math skills to solve this problem, since you were able to find or calculate molar weights and calculate stoichiometric ratios. For that reason I did not provide a full solution because I thought it would be really rude to solve a problem you were clearly working on yourself. Even so, I would have been glad to check your work if you had asked.


----------



## Nanditasr (May 21, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> @Nanditasr -- I have gotten the impression that you have enough chemistry and math skills to solve this problem, since you were able to find or calculate molar weights and calculate stoichiometric ratios. For that reason I did not provide a full solution because I thought it would be really rude to solve a problem you were clearly working on yourself. Even so, I would have been glad to check your work if you had asked.



*I'll explain how I arrived at this. *

In post 43, I said, "So, I guess, using your "geeky soaper method 2", if the recipe needed 100 grams of NaOH, I will now have to use 95 grams of NaOH and (0.875 x 5 grams) of ammonia? (The 0.875 being 35/40 for the molar weights.)
And I assume we're talking about pure, industrial strength ammonia here, not the store-bought one? (Because the latter would bring it down to 0.875 x 5 grams x 5%, which would be really low.)"

_[This calculation works out to what you have stated in post 50, just that I have used 0.875 instead of 35.04/39.997.]_

Your reply in post 44 was "I have only given advice about using 5% ammonia solution..." _[At this point, I concluded that the calculation applied to the 5% solution itself -- my erroneous interpretation.] _

Therefore, my response in post 45 was "...So I'll go with the 5% solution."

Your reply in post 46 was "Yes, that's right."
*
Hence my conclusion* *and calculation* -- and I have not blamed you you for not checking my work. In any case, I'm happy with the result I got, so I may actually stick with what I worked out, since it requires less NH4OH.


----------



## Nanditasr (Jun 2, 2018)

cmzaha said:


> Think I shall just stick to dual NaOH and KOH, I really do not think my customers will like seeing Ammonium Hydroxide or Ammonia Solution on their label. That would just take more explaining


Can someone please enlighten me: Is NH4OH any worse on the skin than NaOH or KOH? It seems to have a slightly lower pH. Is it harmful in some other way that we should be worried about substituting 5% of the NaOH with the appropriate* quantity of NH4OH?

(After seeing this post, I am wondering what concerns people may have, and whether I should avoid using it and go look for KOH instead.)

*Actually, I use only about 1/2-2/3 of the NH4OH called for in the substitution formula.


----------

