# How much butter is too much?



## spenny92 (Jul 19, 2015)

I've been playing around with a palm-free, animal fat-free recipe and have made a few batches with minor tweaks to compare. I've been using coconut oil, cocoa butter, castor, sweet almond, olive pomace, rice bran and shea butter as the base. One of my favourite suppliers has just added mango butter and almond butter, and the prices are reasonable. I'm wondering if 4 different butters might be too much? What are the downfalls to using too much butter? I've been using cocoa butter and shea butter at 5-12% each, and I would be looking to add almond and mango at 5-6% each. I've run a few test recipes through SoapCalc and the numbers look good - creamier, slightly harder than my current recipe (I'm finding the texture upon unmoulding really fudgey, not a major issue but would like it a little firmer).


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## Obsidian (Jul 19, 2015)

I wouldn't go over 20% total on butters. How much water are you using? I find using 2:1 water:lye helps make a harder soap at unmolding. Always double check any unusual sounding butters like almond, often its just soybean oil with a added liquid oil.


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## KristaMarie (Jul 19, 2015)

I use up to 30%, but just cocoa and shea. I can't imagine adding 5% of mango and almond butters will do much besides reduce lather. 
If your soap is fudgey, just leave it another day or two before unmolding. My high butter soaps are fudgey after a day, because I usually use full water if I'm swirling. Like Obsidian said, a 2:1 water to lye ratio will cut down on your wait time a bit


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## not_ally (Jul 19, 2015)

Krista and Obsidian, how is your lather in the soaps that have 20-30% butters?  Have been thinking of trying some experimental batches, but I was concerned about that.  Do you add super-lather boosters somehow?


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## KristaMarie (Jul 19, 2015)

I don't add anything to boost lather, but I've been thinking of adding sugar. The lather takes a couple extra seconds to get going, but when it does it's nice and creamy. Just like everything else in soap making, it depends on what you like!


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## KristaY (Jul 19, 2015)

This Krista agrees with the first Krista, lol. I add sodium lactate to all my batches so that helps the bubbles a bit too. I love the dense, creamy lather with my triple butter recipe and my future DIL is happy as a clam (how does one measure the happiness of the clam?) Anyway, she has very sensitive, dry skin and loves the wedding bars I made for her.


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## spenny92 (Jul 19, 2015)

Yep, I checked out the almond butter and it's just almond oil plus "hydrogenated vegetable oils" so I'll pass on that.

I've been using mostly 10% cocoa and 10% shea, the lather is lovely and creamy once it gets going (batches aren't fully cured yet, but I had to test them!). I was reading about water discount all day yesterday, and I've just been using the default SoapCalc setting. Since using SoapMaker 3, I've had to manually input the lye strength, so I'm going to do 2:1 from now on!

I might test a batch with 5% mango butter, and go from there.


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## LittleCrazyWolf (Jul 19, 2015)

I used 25% mango butter in my very first batch and it lathered ok...probably because I also used 31% coconut oil. It definitely wasn't the right soap for my skin! 

Are you opposed to trying lard in your recipe? Lard adds hardness, conditioning, and has a nice creamy lather that I love.


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## spenny92 (Jul 19, 2015)

LittleCrazyWolf said:


> I used 25% mango butter in my very first batch and it lathered ok...probably because I also used 31% coconut oil. It definitely wasn't the right soap for my skin!
> 
> Are you opposed to trying lard in your recipe? Lard adds hardness, conditioning, and has a nice creamy lather that I love.



I've used lard and like it in recipes for myself, but I'm now working on animal fat free and palm free recipes - I live in rural NZ and we have a large hippie population, so that's what they want apparently!


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## LittleCrazyWolf (Jul 20, 2015)

spenny92 said:


> I've used lard and like it in recipes for myself, but I'm now working on animal fat free and palm free recipes - I live in rural NZ and we have a large hippie population, so that's what they want apparently!


 
You definitely gotta give 'em what they want! : )


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## not_ally (Jul 20, 2015)

Those poor hippies don't know what they're missing.  Or not, I suspect if they buy soap in stores without reading (and most people don't), there will be sodium lardate in it.  I admire people who are principled, but I think balance is good.


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## galaxyMLP (Jul 20, 2015)

Is that what you call it? Sodium lardate? I always wondered since with tallow its sodium tallowate. I just haven't ever heard of sodium lardate.

Don't get me wrong. It makes total sense. Just never read it!


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## not_ally (Jul 20, 2015)

I know, it seems o easy.  Just add sodium to the front and and "ate" to the back.  Now, that is the kind of chemistry I can get with


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## KristaMarie (Jul 21, 2015)

Hey! We hippies still have some nice soap!


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## not_ally (Jul 21, 2015)

Oops, sorry KristaM.  I had a bad experience w/vegan soap b/c I let the friend of a friend who is vegan stay in my apt for a month when I was gone.  Rent free, and she "organized" a bunch of my stuff, which made me crazy.  Also left some really drying and not-nice soaps behind, but I am sure that was b/c they were poorly made, not b/c vegan soaps are intrinsically displeasing.


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## Obsidian (Jul 21, 2015)

My 20% shea bar doesn't produce big bubbles but it has plenty of thick, creamy lather. I increased the coconut oil (or palm kernel) to help boost the lather a bit.


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## KristaMarie (Jul 21, 2015)

Hahaha it's ok NA! Only playing. I actually think that more hippies should use lard anyway (but I'm a hypocrite, because I don't lol), because it's putting to use a waste product.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 21, 2015)

It's actually a good point might be that you use too much butter when it has more of a negative affect on your soap than the benefits make up for - if it reduces the lather a touch, for some that is terrible (I'm looking at Susie here) and for others not so bad. Up to a point, a little bit of a waxy feel might be okay for some or too much for another. So for some 30% is too much, for others it is a-ok. For some 20% would be too much - you need to weigh the pros against the cons


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## spenny92 (Jul 21, 2015)

KristaMarie said:


> Hahaha it's ok NA! Only playing. I actually think that more hippies should use lard anyway (but I'm a hypocrite, because I don't lol), because it's putting to use a waste product.



That's my reasoning for using it in soaps for personal use. I'd rather use it than see it go to landfill. But I touched on the topic of using it as an ingredient, and they did not like that idea one little bit. roblem:


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## not_ally (Jul 21, 2015)

Oh man, Spenny, that sucks, b/c it really is nice in soap.  Plus it seems harder to make a vegan/veg soap generally, although I know it can be done (have never tried) from posts here.  I bet you will end up with a nice one after all your work, though.


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## tarkus (Jul 22, 2015)

Hi all,

I am not clear about 2:1 water/lye. are you saying the water is better to be 2 times the lye? if you do that you will reduce the total super fat correct ?
more lye or less water it will have same effect. 

thanks

Andre


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## not_ally (Jul 22, 2015)

Andre, the superfat will depend on the oil:lye ratio, not the water.  Changing the water really just effects how the soap behaves when you are making it, speed of hardening, etc.  Also some other things in terms of how it might end up looking (ash, glycerine rivers) but not the superfat.


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## tarkus (Jul 22, 2015)

good info. thanks.

I though about it and the logic makes no sense to me. lye needs to be dissolve in water first in order to work. less water stronger lye becomes. after the lye is dissolved in water now the lye will effect oils. based on my understanding less water will make the lye stronger.
simple way of thinking if you take a cup of water and add a tea soon of sugar then taste it now use half glass of water with same one tea spoon of sugar now taste it. half cup of water will have stronger sugar taste correct? same thing in soap


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 22, 2015)

The solution may well be weaker, but the actual amount of lye is not changing at all and it is the lye itself that reacts with the oils.  You could you a 1:1 ratio, 1:2, 1:3 - the amount of lye does not change, just the medium used to mix it in to the oils with.


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## tarkus (Jul 22, 2015)

the PH level in water will change if you use less water. when use less water simply means lye will produce more PH. I understand the amount of lye didn't change but by changing the water it effect the total PH. test the water/sugar example I mentioned. if you agree with water/sugar example then this is same as soap making


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## kchaystack (Jul 22, 2015)

tarkus said:


> the PH level in water will change if you use less water. when use less water simply means lye will produce more PH. I understand the amount of lye didn't change but by changing the water it effect the total PH. test the water/sugar example I mentioned. if you agree with water/sugar example then this is same as soap making



But no matter what the pH is, there are still only x amount of NaOH molecules to react with x amount of oil.  The strength of your solution effects how fast that reaction happens.  More water means slower reaction with lye and oil.


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## TeresaT (Jul 22, 2015)

KristaMarie said:


> Hey! We hippies still have some nice soap!



WAIT!!  I thought "hippies" didn't bathe.  What's the soap for?  :razz:


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## KristaMarie (Jul 22, 2015)

TeresaT said:


> WAIT!! I thought "hippies" didn't bathe. What's the soap for? :razz:


 

Mostly just to look at...and smell. HAHA. Admitedly, I bathe much more often since making my own soap, because it's more fun!


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## tarkus (Jul 22, 2015)

Thank you for detail explanation. Are you saying by changing the water amount super fat stays the same ? 

The way I see it before making soap test needs to be done because of so many things can effect lye behaver. going higher then 5% super fat is a question in how long it will dry up. I think figuring out correct lye amount based on experience and testing.  

Andre


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## FlybyStardancer (Jul 22, 2015)

Changing the water amount has zero effect on the superfat. The superfat is based on the number of lye molecules and the number of oil molecules. Water is just what is used to make the lye available to react with the oil.


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## kchaystack (Jul 22, 2015)

tarkus said:


> Thank you for detail explanation. Are you saying by changing the water amount super fat stays the same ?
> 
> The way I see it before making soap test needs to be done because of so many things can effect lye behaver. going higher then 5% super fat is a question in how long it will dry up. I think figuring out correct lye amount based on experience and testing.
> 
> Andre



Yes.  The water amount will not effect the amount of oils that are left over after all the lye is reacts.  

You determine your lye amount by using a soap calculator.  This is a program that takes the oils and figures out how much lye is needed to react with the oils to make soap.  You can also look up the SAP values for your oils and figure this manually, but the programs are less error prone.


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## tarkus (Jul 22, 2015)

ok thanks


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## TeresaT (Jul 22, 2015)

Andre:  I am not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination.  However, the way I explained the soap making process to a friend of mine the other day that had no clue whatsoever about it (and didn't know what lye or NaOH was) is this:  

(I'm using made-up numbers to keep it simple.)  If I have 100 grams of oils and I want to make it soap with a SF of 5%, I need to figure out how much NaOH (NOT "lye." Lye is the solution made from NaOH and H2O) it takes to turn all of that oil into soap.  So, I've figured out that 1 gram of NaOH turns 10 grams of my oils into soap.  If I want a 0% SF, I will mix 10 g of NaOH with some water to dissolve the NaOH and pour it into the oils.  How much water?  It depends on how long of a time I want to spend working with the soap or how long I want to wait for the soap to harden.  If I am using all soft oils, I use less water.  So, for this sample, I'm going to use 50% solution because I suck at math.  0%SF will mean 100 g oils, 10 g NaOH and 10 g H2O.   HOWEVER, we want to SF at 5%.  I need to knock out 5% of my total NaOH - which makes it 9.5 g of NaOH.  But I still want to use 10 g water because I like that number and suck at math.  I'll use 100 g oils, 10 g water and 9.5 NaOH.  I now have an "extra" .5 g of water and an "extra" .5 g of oils in the soap batter that will never become soap.  The oils will be the "superfat" of the soap, they'll stay behind and be extra moisturizing.  The water will evaporate as part of the curing process.

I can take my 9.5 g NaOH and add it to 20 g  of water, then mix that solution with my 100 g oil.  I will have 95 g of soap 5 g of superfat and an extra 20.5 g of water that needs to evaporate out of my soap.  The more water you add to the NaOH, the longer it takes to evaporate out of the bars.  PLUS, if you superfat and have too much water, you run the risk of having all of that extra fat rise to the surface and harden.  Then you have a scum of fat covering your soap that you have to either leave and hope it reabsorbs into the soap as it cures or you are going to have to wash it off.  Rebatching is also an option for the extra layer of fat.  It doesn't really matter how much water is used to dissolve the NaOH because the NaOH will only react with a specific amount of oils.  Anything "extra" in the mix is just extra to be evaporated out.  If you have 100 g oils, 10 g NaOH and 50 g water, every bit of the 10 g NaOH will react with every bit of the oils to make soap.  It will be very soft, wet soap that may take a month to unmold, but it will be soap with 0% superfat. 

As I said, I am not a scientist by ANY stretch of the imagination.  However, this is my understanding of the way NaOH and H2O combine to create a lye solution.  That lye solution reacts with oils to create soap.  Once all of the lye is used up, any oils and water left over will be super fats or evaporate out.  If I have any of this wrong, I am sure everyone will be jumping in to set me straight (and help you to make sure you ignore my ignorance.)

BTW:  I always super fat at 8% and do my lye solution at 33%. SoapCalc is an amazing tool.  Someone mentioned it in an earlier post.


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