# Glycerine Rivers?



## LittleBunny (Apr 16, 2018)

I made this beautiful loaf of fruit loops confetti soap, didn't over insulate like I did with the previous one and just placed it in a box and left it for 24 hours. It didn't get anywhere near as hot as the first soap I made.... This is only the 2nd time I've ever made CP soap. 

I prepped my area perfectly, had all my ingredients ready and everything went much more smoothly this time around - my batters were the perfect consistency and poured beautifully.

But, when it came time to cutting... I found this ugly mess about 2 inches into my bars. WHY!!!  

My confetti was MP and not CP; is that the problem? If that's it, lesson learned...

Advice?

Feeling discouraged this is an expensive "trial and error" experience... kind of feel like giving up.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 16, 2018)

Your soap has "rivers" or mottling. It's totally an aesthetic, visual issue -- your soap is otherwise fine. I like rivers, so I think your soap is neat!

Rivers have nothing to do with the M&P confetti. Three things have contributed to their formation -- You used a high amount of water in your recipe so the soap got warm enough to turn into that liquidy state we call "gel." Then the soap cooled down slowly from that liquidy state, allowing the soap molecules to form large visible crystals as the soap solidified. And you used pigmented colorants (titanium dioxide, I'm betting) which makes rivers especially obvious.

Your soap is a good example to learn about rivers -- it has rivers in the center gelled portion of the soap, but not in the outer not-gelled area. You should put your pictures in the thread: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/a-picture-of-ricing-volcanos-separating-overheating.52097/


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## soapmaker (Apr 16, 2018)

No Little Bunny please don't give up. I learned about this when it happened to me when I used titanium dioxide. It doesn't have to heat up too much for that to happen. For me the remedy is a 35% lye solution and when I use TD I set the soap in a cool room so it doesn't heat up.


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## IrishLass (Apr 16, 2018)

Ditto what Soapmaker said- don't give up! And I agree with DeeAnna, too- I think you soap looks cool. 

If you use less than a 'full water' amount, you will find it to be a big help where mottling is concerned. I mostly use a 33% lye concentration (a ratio of 1 part lye to 2 parts water) and gel my soaps, and it's rare that I ever get mottling. In comparison, a 'full water' amount equates to a ratio of 1 part lye to anywhere from 2.5 to 3 parts water. The 35% lye concentration that Soapmaker uses is a ratio of 1 part lye to 1.857 parts water.

Having said that, I should mention that using less water should be approached with a little extra care because other variables come into play that you'll want to be mindful of, such as trace coming quicker, the soap needing extra applied heat to achieve full gel, less time to work with swirls, less time to work with fast-tracing FOs, etc....  The positives are that mottling will be a rarity, ash will be a rarity, there'll be less warping during cure, and the soap can be unmolded and cut quicker, etc...   


IrishLass


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## dibbles (Apr 16, 2018)

Soap is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you are going to get.

I have learned to appreciate glycerin rivers when they happen. I understand that it can be disappointing when you cut your soap and find something unexpected. But don't give up. Sometimes a soap turns out like your vision. More often there is a surprise waiting for you. 

I love your soap. I am looking at it with eyes that aren't seeing something that wasn't planned. My eyes just see pretty colors and an interesting pattern.


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## artemis (Apr 16, 2018)

I think the mottling/rivers makes it look just like a slice of birthday cake!


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## penelopejane (Apr 17, 2018)

I do think you should try a smaller batch size. 
You can still use the same mold.  Just make some sort of divider and support it with a piece of timber so it is totally supported.  You can put this 1/2 was or 1/3 way down your mold.


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## LittleBunny (Apr 17, 2018)

IrishLass said:


> I mostly use a 33% lye concentration (a ratio of 1 part lye to 2 parts water) and gel my soaps, and it's rare that I ever get mottling. In comparison, a 'full water' amount equates to a ratio of 1 part lye to anywhere from 2.5 to 3 parts water. The 35% lye concentration that Soapmaker uses is a ratio of 1 part lye to 1.857 parts water.
> 
> IrishLass


Thanks IrishLass, this is really helpful. 

For my first two experiments, I was using the Brambleberry lots of lather quick-mix and their suggested water/lye at 3% super fatting (I think, or 4%... I should have written it down).

For my next batch, I plan on creating my own oil blends using coconut oil, castor oil, palm and olive oil as those are easiest to obtain where I am. 

You are suggesting is I do more of a water discount correct? (Sorry, I'm still learning all the terminology). Im trying to use the Soap Calc to formulate a recipe for my next batch. I assume the water discount is the "Water as a % of Oils" that you're talking about, correct?

I would like to do some swirling in my next batch - is it impossible to swirl with the water discount?


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## LittleBunny (Apr 17, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> I do think you should try a smaller batch size.
> You can still use the same mold.  Just make some sort of divider and support it with a piece of timber so it is totally supported.  You can put this 1/2 was or 1/3 way down your mold.



That's a good idea!

Question -- if I use TD, should I mix it with water or oil? Should I include the amount of oil that I mix my colorants with, (ex 1tbs) in my recipe too? Or can they be ignored because its such a small amount?


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## earlene (Apr 17, 2018)

I have also used a regular log mold with smaller batches, but without the added border.  Then cut the soap as if I was cutting a slab mold.  Once the slab/loaf is set up and can be removed from the mold, the soap would be long but short, so it resembles a skinny slab. 

Like this from LovinSoap:


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## DeeAnna (Apr 17, 2018)

LittleBunny said:


> ...I was using the Brambleberry lots of lather quick-mix and their suggested water/lye at 3% super fatting...



The BB calc is simplified for beginners. Most people move on to a fuller featured calc, such as http://soapee.com and http://soapcalc.net If you haven't checked out soapee, try it before you settle on one calc.

_"...You are suggesting is I do more of a water discount correct? (Sorry, I'm still learning all the terminology). Im trying to use the Soap Calc to formulate a recipe for my next batch...."_

In effect, yes, it's a "water discount" but I don't think that terminology is especially helpful. Just use "lye concentration" or water:lye ratio and don't worry about "full water" or "water discount." You'll get more consistency in your soap making if you make the switch. More: https://classicbells.com/soap/waterInSoap.html

_"...I assume the water discount is the "Water as a % of Oils" that you're talking about, correct?..."_

Water discount is when you use less water than what's called the "full water" weight. Unfortunately, what "full water" really is is not defined consistently from a chemistry point of view.

The usual definition of "full water" is whatever water weight you get when you use "38% water as % of oils" but basing the water weight on the weight of fats isn't a very helpful way to calculate water for a soap recipe. The water weight should be calculated from the alkali (NaOH) weight for the chemistry to work properly.

In IL's and my posts, we usually talk about lye concentration or water:lye ratio, not "water as % of oils". Check soapee or soapcalc and you'll see three options for calculating water -- "water as % of oils", lye concentration, and water:lye ratio. The last 2 mean the same thing; they just look different. Water as % of oils is not the same as the other two.

_"...I would like to do some swirling in my next batch - is it impossible to swirl with the water discount?..."_

I normally use 31% to 33% lye concentration for most of my soap recipes, and I usually have lots of time to swirl. There are other factors besides the amount of water in a recipe that affect the time available for swirling -- fats in the recipe, how much stick blending you do, fragrances that accelerate, soap batter temperature, etc.


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## soapmaker (Apr 17, 2018)

I actually use a 34.5% lye solution. I mistakenly said 35%. This is an amount that does everything I want it to do with my recipe so I don't experiment with anything else. I don't insulate or even cover. Rarely is there any ash and I can cut in 12 hours but rarely do because I wait till the next morning. With a higher water usage I used to cover, insulate, wait at least 24 hours to cut and mostly had ash. Here is the link from modern soapmaking  that helped me so much.  https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/lye-solution-in-soapmaking/    But that was after I learned what the problem was from this wonderful forum.


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## cmzaha (Apr 17, 2018)

You basically have to test and determine what works for you. I have 1 recipe I use a 31% lye concentration because it is a very fast mover and 33% for most of my other recipes. I forgot to say I really like the looks of your confetti soap. Well done. I really had not thought of m&p shreds but I am going to as soon as I get home and can make soap


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## IrishLass (Apr 17, 2018)

LittleBunny said:


> You are suggesting is I do more of a water discount correct? (Sorry, I'm still learning all the terminology).



Ditto what DeeAnna said in her post, i.e., in effect yes, but there's a little bit more to the story than what is revealed by the terminology taken at face value (which is why I avoid using the term 'water discount'), because water can be calculated either of two different ways: 1) as a % of the oils in your formula, or 2) by the weight of the lye in your formula- aka, a 'lye concentration', which is a ratio of lye to water (as opposed to lye to oils). Which brings me to your next question........



LittleBunny said:


> Im trying to use the Soap Calc to formulate a recipe for my next batch. I assume the water discount is the "Water as a % of Oils" that you're talking about, correct?



Prepare yourself- this will get a bit confusing, but the answer is maybe yes and maybe no........it all depends on who you ask.  If you are asking me directly, my answer would be no- I'm not talking about 'Water as % of oils", but rather 'lye concentration' (two very different things as DeeAnna ponted out). Definitely check out the link DeeAnna provided. It will clear up all the confusion between the two and will explain why I treat the 'water as % of oils' box on SoapCalc as if it doesn't exist (it really shouldn't anyway if you ask me, but I digress  ).



LittleBunny said:


> I would like to do some swirling in my next batch - is it impossible to swirl with the water discount?



Most definitely yes!  I swirl all the time with my 33% lye concentration. Based on whatever formula and FO I'm using, I can have anywhere from 10 minutes up to a whole hour to swirl.




LittleBunny said:


> Question -- if I use TD, should I mix it with water or oil? Should I include the amount of oil that I mix my colorants with, (ex 1tbs) in my recipe too? Or can they be ignored because its such a small amount?



I like to mix mine with vegetable glycerin instead of water or oil (it mixes well with both oil dispersible or water dispersible TD). I add just enough to reach a nice fluid consistency. I've heard that mixing with water can be problematic if one likes to gel their soaps (more chance of mottling occurring during gel/cool down). For what it's worth, when I used to use oil or water to mix my TD, I never accounted for the extra because I found it to be too little to have an effect on my finished soap.


IrishLass


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## Zing (Apr 18, 2018)

Little Bunny, I am NOT an expert, just a beginner too.  I recently got glycerin rivers too and got great advice in my thread titled "What caused ridges, oil on top?" (note I didn't even know the right term to call my problem!).  Following that advice, my next batch with TD, I waited to mix at less than 100 degrees, and I also upped the lye concentration, and got no glycerin rivers.  Your soap in the photos is beautiful.  So one comment about my 'problem soap' was "I love how you got such great texture!"  I'm learning that for my perfectionist self, that soaping is about waiting to see what _actually_ comes out of the mold.  Best wishes,


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## Kari (Apr 18, 2018)

I ran into a lot of glycerin rivers using TD too. Even in my very first soap!

One thing I learned/discovered over a lot of reading and watching youtubers: find a way to keep it from getting warm. Don't insulate, chuck it in the fridge! I've even heard some soapers will put it in the freezer. The loaves that I've made since I started doing this haven't had glycerin rivers. You really only need to insulate if you want the colors to be brighter. You can't really make white brighter, though.. so you might as well pop it in the fridge and let it set up that way. (you probably want to avoid excess heat in these bars in the future anyways, since you don't want to melt the melt and pour embeds!)

I love doing fancy swirls and stuff, so I don't do a water discount.

Obviously you want to soap as cool as you can, too. Room temp or even lower. Some soapers mix the oils and whip up the lye water the night before, let everything cool down, and then make the soap the next day. 

Just the other day I actually made a brightly colored soap, insulated that in my oven with a heating pad.. and then the following day I pipped the top and chucked it in the fridge for a day. It turned out great without glycerin rivers.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 18, 2018)

I want to offer an alternative perspective based on my own experience and what other soapers have shared here over the years --

You can start with cool/cold ingredients and you can refrigerate or freeze soap if you want, but honestly, this concept doesn't always work and isn't always possible. Recipes with high % of solid fats like lard, palm, butters need to start warm enough so the fats are mostly or fully melted which means they have to be warmer than room temp. Larger molds may not fit in a freezer or fridge.

And even if a soaper tries to soap cool/cold, there will be batches that will not behave despite one's best effort to keep the soap cool/cold. Newer soapers can get sooooo frustrated because they try to follow all these ideas, and they still get rivers or partial gel. Or their soap stays too soft or too zappy for too long.

By using a lye concentration of 33%, rivers are nearly eliminated without any additional effort. And you can still do fancy swirls at that lye concentration. In my experience, using good technique and the right recipe are far more effective than soaping cool/cold if you want to have a long time in which to do fancy work.

I can get over 1/2 hour of working time using a 33% lye concentration even if my soap batter is 100 F (40 C). I never put my soap in the fridge or freezer. I seldom get rivers.


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## LittleBunny (Apr 18, 2018)

Zing said:


> Little Bunny, I am NOT an expert, just a beginner too.  I recently got glycerin rivers too and got great advice in my thread titled "What caused ridges, oil on top?" (note I didn't even know the right term to call my problem!).  Following that advice, my next batch with TD, I waited to mix at less than 100 degrees, and I also upped the lye concentration, and got no glycerin rivers.  Your soap in the photos is beautiful.  So one comment about my 'problem soap' was "I love how you got such great texture!"  I'm learning that for my perfectionist self, that soaping is about waiting to see what _actually_ comes out of the mold.  Best wishes,



Oh Zing, you are preaching to the choir on this one! I am such a perfectionist - I was mortified when my 2nd batch had glycerine rivers AGAIN. I think soap making is going to teach me how to just accept things they way they are and move on!


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