# First Soap! Many things realized[emoji54]



## MissLunaB (Sep 19, 2017)

After Irma came and went and many wiggles later I finally have made my first soap after lurking in the the hobby for over a year now, it really doesn't seem that long but it's almost October, egad! 
Even though I could probably write a book or two (that's read recited/quote) on soap making I didn't want to just jump in with out getting my stick blender a little bit wet, you know, test the soap batter so to say. 
Thanks Britannic who shared a recipe with me (Cow Bell) I was able to get my stick blender wet and I'm insta addicted :3 







But with me coming upon and making my first soap I came to many realizations that I wanted to, I guess, share. 
1. Soap making is a hobby of weight not volume- boy oh boy color me pinky pie when I got my first colorant and ordered only 4oz of mica from Mad Micas. Yikes! I even got another jar to stuff the "little jar"I was expecting to come in. 
2. If you think you need it, ingredient, tool, etc, buy it! Someone in the house has used what ever you thought you had. This happened to me not once, not twice but 4 times and I will tell you, when you have lye water ready to go and a limited time before a 4 year old and her mother shows up, then is not the time to find out you have an olive oil *BLEND* instead of plain olive oil
3. Ummm I'm going to run out of ingredients before I make my mom's soap- I want to try some other things before I make my mom's soap but between fall cleaning/moving/and a supplier not selling the tallow I bought *gasp* I think I'll get two more batched out and that's it, how do you guys do it? 
4. I still have so much to learn! Like, look closely at my soap, 






it is so pretty, but what are those (insert meme) are those glycerin rivers, or is that a partial gel, or is that a ghost swirl? It's so pretty! 

Anyway comments, encouragements, answers, pokes XD are encouraged and wanted. This is how we learn and I'm super excited to do more and learn more from this hobby.  

~Luna Out! 

*admin if this is in he wrong place, please move, sorry!*


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## Kittish (Sep 19, 2017)

Pretty soap. My first guess for the layer swirl look would be that your colorant didn't get quite completely smoothly blended into the batter. Looks like you poured in several passes, and that would account for the appearance of the layers. Just almost an accidental tiger stripe.


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## jcandleattic (Sep 19, 2017)

What was your recipe? It looks like it could be strearic spots/stripes.


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## lenarenee (Sep 19, 2017)

Is there colorant in your soap? It doesn't look so on my computer. Yes, we need the recipe, and the general temperature  of oils and lye solution. Did you use palm oil that was well mixed before measuring, or use animal fats at cold temps?


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## MissLunaB (Sep 19, 2017)

Kittish said:


> Pretty soap. My first guess for the layer swirl look would be that your colorant didn't get quite completely smoothly blended into the batter. Looks like you poured in several passes, and that would account for the appearance of the layers. Just almost an accidental tiger stripe.







jcandleattic said:


> What was your recipe? It looks like it could be strearic spots/stripes.







lenarenee said:


> Is there colorant in your soap? It doesn't look so on my computer. Yes, we need the recipe, and the general temperature  of oils and lye solution. Did you use palm oil that was well mixed before measuring, or use animal fats at cold temps?





Nope, no colorants or additives what so ever. I did soap at a low temp, oils as 93 and lye at 95. I was worried I would be soaping too low because I had to run out and get olive oil, hence lessons number 2 XD The stearic is 12, is that high? Here is the recipe Britannic's Cow Bell http://soapee.com/recipes/4374  I do need to wait until my ph strips come in my scale made me worry a bit and when I did pour my soap I did get a weird chemical smell and I'm not sure if it was the start of my migraine or if it was the soap so we will see.


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## Susie (Sep 19, 2017)

Don't bother with pH strips, they will tell you nothing.  Instead zap test at about a week.  

Your recipe looks fine to me.


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## MissLunaB (Sep 19, 2017)

Susie said:


> Don't bother with pH strips, they will tell you nothing.  Instead zap test at about a week.
> 
> Your recipe looks fine to me.





IMVHO, I know A LOT of people do this, but the zap test sounds scary and incredibly stupid. Super Sorry   there has to be a better way to test that doesn't put your body on the line.


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## Kittish (Sep 19, 2017)

It really isn't at all scary. And I speak as a relatively new soaper who has gotten zapped a couple of times (out of several dozen tests done, and one of those really doesn't count because I tested soap I knew would zap me on purpose). Done to spec in the sticky thread, the worst thing that happens to you is maybe getting a feeling like what you get by putting your tongue over the terminals of a 9v battery, just not lingering like that feeling does. It goes away in a fraction of a second, and if you rinse your tongue like the instructions say to, you don't even wind up with much lingering taste of soap in your mouth.


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## BattleGnome (Sep 19, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> there has to be a better way to test that doesn't put your body on the line.



I've had soap batter splash onto my lip while mixing then I instinctively licked it up. No ill effects other than a paranoid weekend making sure. If you do get a zap and feel that rinsing your mouth out with water isn't enough then rinse your mouth with a teaspoon on your favorite oil. 

Even if you choose not to zap test then just wait out the cure time before using your soap. Save your money from those test strips unless you need them for another project. There are just too many variables to get a good reading and the important thing is the lye. Soap wouldn't be soap if it wasn't the proper Ph, the emulsion wouldn't hold


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## dibbles (Sep 20, 2017)

Lovely first soap - congratulations!

ETA: Okay, I just realized that I made almost the exact same comment to a friend of my daughter's, who just had her first baby.


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## SunRiseArts (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> IMVHO, I know A LOT of people do this, but the zap test sounds scary and incredibly stupid. Super Sorry  there has to be a better way to test that doesn't put your body on the line.


 
Veterans do not be mad at me!  But ....I know we should zap the soap.  I only did it once.  I cannot bear myself to do it either.

I do use the PH paper.  But I also have a tiny mold that holds 2 oz, that I always fill when I make a bar.  Then I use it a week after I make the soap.  First in the hands, and if it feels ok, I shower with it.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 20, 2017)

The problem with pH is that it tells you only one thing and that alone is not enough to know if your soap is safe. 

I would say that spending money on strips which won't tell me what I need to know, certainly not consistently and accurately, is "incredibly stupid" when there is a much more reliable, perfectly safe and free method.


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## Susie (Sep 20, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The problem with pH is that it tells you only one thing and that alone is not enough to know if your soap is safe.



pH strips are still not going to tell you what you need to know, and that is whether there is free lye remaining in the soap.  And you NEED TO KNOW this before risking your skin and others' skin.


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## SunRiseArts (Sep 20, 2017)

...  :neutral:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 20, 2017)

SunRiseArts said:


> I get it, I know how you all believe, however no needs for names ... :eh:
> 
> to each its own.


That was more based on the op terms. 

For the record, I don't care if anyone zap tests or not, as long as they don't give away dangerous soap. 

My issue is, and what will always get a ride out of me, is when someone (like the op) states that it IS dangerous. It isn't dangerous at all, when done with a modicum of common sense, no more then tasting something when cooking is dangerous. 

Saying that you don't want to zap test is one thing, stating that it is dangerous and "putting your body on the line", especially when people who don't know better yet might read it, is something else. 

I don't think that you, sunrise, are stupid not to do it. I think that you are missing a trick and, if only relying on pH strips without a proper testing method (soap solution, not on the bar) you might be getting different information than you think you are. This could put your customers at risk, but I'm fairly certain that no bars leave your hands until they have cured and you have used one just to make sure that they are good to go. Other people might not do this, and solely rely on an ineffective method as a safety check. That is putting bodies on the line. 

I don't want newbies getting in to the "pH good, zap test bad" mindset before they've even looked at how to do it properly.


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## SunRiseArts (Sep 20, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> That was more based on the op terms.
> 
> For the record, I don't care if anyone zap tests or not, as long as they don't give away dangerous soap.
> 
> ...


 
I realized your comment was made referring to something the OP said, which is why I edited my post. So my apologies. Guess you might be an night owl like me, and beat me to it!

Personally I would not even let my sons use a bar of soap I made unless I have tried it myself. I sell little to none, mainly MP, and HP or CP bar have properly cured.

Normally I keep several bars in my shower. One time I was using an MP bar I made, and testing a bar after 4 weeks, and my eyes got irritated. I totally freaked out, washed with the MP, and it got worst. Then I realized that my MP soap had too much fragrance, and had nothing to do with the CP soap.... what a relieve, but I learned a really good lesson. Because now I always measure my fragrance, including for MP, and I rather go under than over. I also learned that MP requires 1/4 of fragrance in relationship to CP.  So the calculators are of no use for MP.

I am very careful when I measure, and bought a scale that has 3 decimals, but though that the FO could be just approximate.

As I probably mentioned before, I am one of those people that are germ phobic. I personally find unsanitary tongue testing the soap. I would not care if I made it and is more myself, but the thought of people's putting their tongue in my soap I will use freaks me out. What if they have a disease? eewww!!! But I am sure you all only zap test the ones for personal use, and that germs do not travel like that anyway.


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## Kittish (Sep 20, 2017)

You don't have anyone's tongue anywhere near the actual bar of soap. You wet a finger (wearing gloves!) with a drop or two of water. Rub that on the bar you're testing to get a bit of residue on your finger. Now touch YOUR FINGER to the tip of your tongue. Wash/rinse, repeat as needed. See? No licking of soap involved at all.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 20, 2017)

And if I do lick a bar, it is one for personal use.


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## MissLunaB (Sep 20, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> That was more based on the op terms.
> 
> For the record, I don't care if anyone zap tests or not, as long as they don't give away dangerous soap.
> 
> ...





Whoops! sorry oTL forgive me for the unintended jibe. I was looking at it from a medical/chemistry standpoint. 

All I could think of is that even if I touch the tip of my tongue(which I can't anyway) that somehow someway an reaction can occur may it be allergic/chemical/otherwise. I'm not worried about the pain I'm more or less worried about the repercussions that can occur if something goes wrong. You wouldn't tell a Cub Scout to taste river water to see if it's safe to drink before drinking it. 

My take away is there is always a way to test your compound before you put it on your body or others, and if there is not, someone finds one or people work together to find one.


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## SudsanSoaps (Sep 20, 2017)

Personal opinion here. But once you get much experience at all I think you'll have a pretty good idea if the soap will zap you or not before you try it.  But then I HP so it's much more apparent than CP.


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## navigator9 (Sep 20, 2017)

Congratulations on your first soap! As for the streaks, here's what has worked for me. Although the stick blender is great at mixing the batter for soap, I don't think that it mixes as thoroughly and evenly as we may think. Since I always have my spatula ready to scrape the soap batter out of the pot and into the mold, I take one extra step. Before pouring, I take the spatula and stir the pot first, making sure to scrape the sides and bottom and stir well, for just a few seconds. I think the SB does a good job in the middle, but not so much around the edges. I used to get streaks fairly often, but in all the years that I've been doing this...no streaks. Hope it works for you too!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 20, 2017)

The river water is a poor analogy. Better is hot water - you wouldn't put an elbow in to a pot of boiling water to test if it is hot or not, but that doesn't mean that testing baby's bath water with an elbow is unsafe. Putting a limb in to water CAN result in it being stripped to the bone if the water is hot enough. Putting 50% lye solution on your tongue would not be a good idea. But that's not what zap testing actually is. 

As I said, you might consider zap testing unsafe, which is up to you. But please do not state as a fact that it IS unsafe, because it isn't.


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## jcandleattic (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:
			
		

> but the zap test sounds scary and incredibly stupid.



It may sound scary, but if done properly, (The way Kittish describes) it is no more 'scary' or 'dangerous' than putting a jalapeno pepper on your tongue. The same amount of 'bodily harm' can be done. 
And to say it's incredibly stupid - well that's a matter of opinion, and as others have pointed out a multitude of times, I would rather be stupid for doing a zap test, than stupid for selling, giving, using a lye heavy soap because I relied on pH strips that would not tell me diddly squat about excess lye. Just a high or low pH, which we all know that handmade soap always ranges between 9-11 or higher on the pH scale, and that is perfectly normal. 




The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Saying that you don't want to zap test is one thing, stating that it is dangerous and "putting your body on the line", especially when people who don't know better yet might read it, is something else.
> 
> ...
> 
> I don't want newbies getting in to the "pH good, zap test bad" mindset before they've even looked at how to do it properly.



^^^ What he said...


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## Kamahido (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> IMVHO, I know A LOT of people do this, but the zap test sounds scary and incredibly stupid. Super Sorry   there has to be a better way to test that doesn't put your body on the line.



Nope. It's the only accurate method available to normal people. Only other option is to send it to a lab for analysis (cost prohibitive).
Save​


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## MissLunaB (Sep 20, 2017)

navigator9 said:


> Congratulations on your first soap! As for the streaks, here's what has worked for me. Although the stick blender is great at mixing the batter for soap, I don't think that it mixes as thoroughly and evenly as we may think. Since I always have my spatula ready to scrape the soap batter out of the pot and into the mold, I take one extra step. Before pouring, I take the spatula and stir the pot first, making sure to scrape the sides and bottom and stir well, for just a few seconds. I think the SB does a good job in the middle, but not so much around the edges. I used to get streaks fairly often, but in all the years that I've been doing this...no streaks. Hope it works for you too!



I was thinking about this last night! I did stir it with my spoon a couple of times to get the feel of what trace feels like. My stick blender acted way different in the soap batter than it did in the water tests (little sucker is powerful), I was actually worried that I would over blend and come to thick trace and not be able to pour my soap. Next batch I'll blend a little more. But I still like the stripes XD 



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The river water is a poor analogy. Better is hot water - you wouldn't put an elbow in to a pot of boiling water to test if it is hot or not, but that doesn't mean that testing baby's bath water with an elbow is unsafe. Putting a limb in to water CAN result in it being stripped to the bone if the water is hot enough. Putting 50% lye solution on your tongue would not be a good idea. But that's not what zap testing actually is.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, you might consider zap testing unsafe, which is up to you. But please do not state as a fact that it IS unsafe, because it isn't.



Hold the phone you might want to re read the first 5 words of the post that unsettled  you so much as well as a very important key word I wrote in that same post. For one, I did not make an absolute, I stated my opinion and that's all it is an opinion not a fact. As I said in my intro I am here to learn and I come with an open mind. The zap test *sounds* scary and incredibly stupid, to someone that has had lab safety and practices drilled into then for the past 12 or so years. But please don't undermine someone because of there fears/background/experience. Yes I'm new but that is why I'm here, to learn, and maybe this newbie can bring a new idea/solution to an old problem/method  



Now, since its such a waste of money can someone please explain to me why pH strips don't work to test soap? And if it doesn't work why was it recommended in the first place.
And can we get back to my soap XD


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## jcandleattic (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> Now, since its such a waste of money can someone please explain to me why pH strips don't work to test soap? And if it doesn't work why was it recommended in the first place.



Because all they do is test the pH of your soap. That will not in any way shape or form let you know if there is free lye still active in your soaps. 
As for why they are recommended - I have no idea. I personally would never recommend using them to determine if a soap is lye heavy because it will not indicate that. 
As I said in my previous post is, all it will tell you is if your soap has a high or low pH to what the strip considers "normal" (which I believe neutral is a pH of 7?), and by using colors, not actual numbers (if I remember correctly)  and handmade soap is on average, but not always the case around a pH level of 8.5 (very low for handmade soap, but have seen a pH level 9 to be lye heavy) to 11 (high ish, but have seen a lot at this level that is not lye heavy at all)


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## MissLunaB (Sep 20, 2017)

But that makes me wonder what was in lye that made someone somewhere say "hey! If it says this on the pH scale then it has no lye in it" and if that's the case then that's the first step to finding a new way to doing things. The zap test is compared to a zap like a 9v battery correct? It has to be something about the reaction that happens when saliva comes in contact with the terminals that produces that same sensation when you test soap... Sorry gears are turning and I want to know XD


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## jcandleattic (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> But that makes me wonder what was in lye that made someone somewhere say "hey! If it says this on the pH scale then it has no lye in it" and if that's the case then that's the first step to finding a new way to doing things. The zap test is compared to a zap like a 9v battery correct? It has to be something about the reaction that happens when saliva comes in contact with the terminals that produces that same sensation when you test soap... Sorry gears are turning and I want to know XD



I've heard others refer to it feeling like that, but I've never had a zap quite as strong as a 9V battery. and that was testing soap I new was not even remotely close to being saponified yet (aka, still had active lye in the soap, barely past the batter stage) 

I think the main reason nobody has tried researching a new way, is because once people get more comfortable with their craft, and have experience with what they are doing, they pretty much know which soaps they should/need to test and which ones are "normal" and that happens in a relatively short learning curve/time period. 

Also, the zap test is free - requires nothing more than a gloved wet finger and a tongue, where as even the pH strips are a cost to the business, AND anything else - creating something new - would/could be very cost and time prohibitive. 
You know the saying, time is money... Well, I'd rather spend my time on a literal 30 second free zap test, than all the other gimmicks/products that are proven not to work.


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## MissLunaB (Sep 20, 2017)

I totally understand what you are saying, and after a bit of reading I came across this article which pretty much sums it up and might ruffle a few feathers as well http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/how-to-ph-test-handmade-soap/ 
But in the long run, no one can figure out another way to test home made soaps and no one is going to invest to compact the industry standards into a home kit :/ I might go into the lab library this weekend and see what I can pull up or get out of my boss/mom's supervisor


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## jcandleattic (Sep 20, 2017)

Why would it ruffle feathers? 
Kenna is basically saying the exact same thing we are about pH strips. 

The part about the tongue test is her assumption that people are actually sticking their tongue to their soaps (which I do not know anyone personally who actually does that!) and how that affects GMP - which, btw the way you need to test the pH, you wouldn't be able to sell as GMP either, so...


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## MissLunaB (Sep 20, 2017)

I don't think she is assuming that people actually are licking the soaps (just the act of sticking your finger in your mouth in area/place/space/containment chamber that is suppose to be clean can be considered unhygienic) but either way you are up a creek without a paddle. Oh, I was just saying that she was saying that zap testing isn't a way to go either, that's where I was getting the feather ruffling from. -_-; so you could not zap and still have bad soap.


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## jcandleattic (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> I don't think she is assuming that people actually are licking the soaps (just the act of sticking your finger in your mouth in area/place/space/containment chamber that is suppose to be clean can be considered unhygienic) but either way you are up a creek without a paddle. Oh, I was just saying that she was saying that zap testing isn't a way to go either, that's where I was getting the feather ruffling from. -_-; so you could not zap and still have bad soap.



But people are not sticking their finger on their tongue and then touching it to the soap, so ?? 
And I would really hope after they did stick their soapy finger to their tongue that they are both washing their hands AND rinsing out their mouth. And then quarantining that soap, or doing the zap test somewhere other than around the rest of the batch of soap. 



> so you could not zap and still have bad soap.


 And you could also pH test your soap, have it read "normal" and still have lye heavy soap. It goes both ways. 


I guess we could go round all day long, but nobody, not even Kenna's article is going to change my mind and make me believe that something people have been doing for a multitude of years and years when done properly is unsafe/dangerous. I have never heard of anyone who has done it properly have issues other than a slight zap, or a soap taste on their tongue. Ever.

And with that, I've pretty much said everything I can about this subject.


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## SudsanSoaps (Sep 20, 2017)

Not that I'm for licking soap bars, it does seem like a bad manufacturing practice, but really whys it's such a big deal?  Say your eat some chocolate and lick your fingers then wash your hands you're gonna get saliva on the soap, even if you do rinse your hands. If a bar of soap is actually gonna harbor bacteria that easily seems like we shouldn't use it.


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## MissLunaB (Sep 20, 2017)

*throws hands up in confusion* ok this is obviously a hot button issue an I've stepped on a couple of toes here. I'm not here for to cause strife, I'm guessing my tone and vernacular is too...too..idk? A little help on the matter would be greatly appreciated.  I do not want to be the eye roll of the forum. But can everyone please chill and maybe be a bit open minded?



jcandleattic said:


> But people are not sticking their finger on their tongue and then touching it to the soap, so ??
> 
> And I would really hope after they did stick their soapy finger to their tongue that they are both washing their hands AND rinsing out their mouth. And then quarantining that soap, or doing the zap test somewhere other than around the rest of the batch of soap.


I was talking in regards in how you properly do the test not sticking your finger in your mouth and then testing the soap DX 



> And you could also pH test your soap, have it read "normal" and still have lye heavy soap. It goes both ways.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I wasn't saying one way was better than the other I was saying even if you test zap test it you still can have a bad soap along side pH strips, I wasn't trying to make you, or anyone for that matter, change your ways, I was just trying have a constructive thoughtful conversation, that's all. *smh*


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## SunWolf (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> [snip] I was saying even if you test zap test it you still can have a bad soap along side pH strips, [snip]



   But zap testing has nothing to do with PH testing...they are two totally different things.  If you don't get a Zap, then your soap is SAFE from excess lye. You are always going to have high PH...it's just the nature of hand made soap.

What are you meaning by still having "bad" soap??


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## neonstudy (Sep 20, 2017)

I personally don't zap test. When a batch of soap goes bad, you can tell by the way it looks. I usually just wait until 4 weeks cure, then test a small piece on my body.


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## MissLunaB (Sep 20, 2017)

SunWolf said:


> But zap testing has nothing to do with PH testing...they are two totally different things.  If you don't get a Zap, then your soap is SAFE from excess lye. You are always going to have high PH...it's just the nature of hand made soap.
> 
> What are you meaning by still having "bad" soap??





Sorry, by "bad soap" I mean "excessive lye". pH testing can be used instead of zap testing to test for excessive lye.


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## SunRiseArts (Sep 20, 2017)

jcandleattic I have seen so many youtube videos of people licking their soap.  Below is one of the most watch soap videos, go to minute 4.22

I have seen terrible practices of people making not only soap but bath product on the tube.  Sometimes I scream at my screen. 

Normally I do not say anything, but the other day in on of those Katie videos I said gloves please, you are pregnant! (She always takes her gloves off to put embeds and stuff), and someone replied and told me gloves are not necessary when making soap, and if you get batter, just put vinegar. You can imagine I did reply to that one.  I furthermore told her that was not only terrible advice, which is why I replied so someone else reading would not think is appropriate,  but that I sure hoped at least she wore googles ...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_c4HjVGk3I[/ame]


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## jcandleattic (Sep 20, 2017)

SunRiseArts said:


> jcandleattic I have seen so many youtube videos of people licking their soap.  Below is one of the most watch soap videos, go to minute 4.22



I only watch like 5 soapers on youtube - very experienced, respected soapers in the field, and they have never done that (on camera -doubt they would do it off camera either) All all the soapers in my local soap group (about 20 of us) don't lick our soap either. 

There are so many crappy youtube videos showing very dangerous processes, it's amazing they don't get reported and taken down...


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## jcandleattic (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> *throws hands up in confusion* ok this is obviously a hot button issue an I've stepped on a couple of toes here. I'm not here for to cause strife, I'm guessing my tone and vernacular is too...too..idk? A little help on the matter would be greatly appreciated.  I do not want to be the eye roll of the forum. But can everyone please chill and maybe be a bit open minded?
> 
> 
> I was talking in regards in how you properly do the test not sticking your finger in your mouth and then testing the soap DX
> ...



No toes stepped on here, and no hot buttons pushed for me. I thought we were having a very level-headed back and forth conversation. 
I was explaining my side and my reasoning. Sorry you felt that was me being aggressive or whatever. 
I never once thought you were saying one way was better than the other, but as has been explained, repeatedly, and even from the article you yourself posted, pH strips will in no way tell you if you have "bad soap" with excess lye (lye-heavy, unsafe soap). They will tell you if your pH levels are high or low. Which is what they are designed to do.


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## Kittish (Sep 20, 2017)

MissLunaB said:


> Sorry, by "bad soap" I mean "excessive lye". pH testing can be used instead of zap testing to test for excessive lye.



Nope, and this seems to be the hub of the back and forth. pH testing will not, cannot, tell you anything about exactly what is IN that soap. This is not an opinion. It is an objective fact, that can be tested out in a laboratory. And there isn't a reliable, easy, inexpensive test OTHER than the zap test that _will_ reliably determine the presence of excess lye. This is, again, not an opinion. It is objective fact. There are ways to determine the presence of excess lye, yes. They are not available to the average home soapmaker. The zap test is. This is why people get so ardent about promoting it. If you come up with some other way that is reliable, easy, and cheap, we WILL be interested in it. pH strips are not that answer.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 21, 2017)

Indeed, the crux is this - at what pH is a soap safe in the sense of no interacted lye? At what pH is it safe in that sense? Two perfectly safe soaps can have very different pH levels and both can be very lovely soaps, neither of them being bad in any way at all.


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## Kittish (Sep 21, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Indeed, the crux is this - at what pH is a soap safe in the sense of no interacted lye? At what pH is it safe in that sense? Two perfectly safe soaps can have very different pH levels and both can be very lovely soaps, neither of them being bad in any way at all.



The answer to your question is the full normal range of pH for soap, provided it has been tested for the presence of unreacted lye. pH does not in any way indicate the presence or absence of unreacted lye. One possible exception- if your soap tests to a pH of 14 or higher, I'd feel pretty safe in assuming the presence of lye. Also, keep in mind that pH strips are notoriously unreliable, and their reported results are entirely useless if the correct procedure isn't followed. So, if you just rub the test strip on a patch of wet soap, you will not get an accurate reading, so why bother with the test in the first place?


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## Steve85569 (Sep 21, 2017)

I do zap test.
I have been zapped - but only a couple of times.
I also only licked a 9 volt battery a couple of times.
Same reason.

If I wait a week and do the damp finger on the bar and then to my tongue I know whether or not I am going to get a zap now. finger feels like it.
Trust me. You learn by doing.
Don't lick the battery though.


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## MissLunaB (Sep 21, 2017)

jcandleattic said:


> No toes stepped on here, and no hot buttons pushed for me. I thought we were having a very level-headed back and forth conversation.
> 
> I was explaining my side and my reasoning. Sorry you felt that was me being aggressive or whatever.
> 
> I never once thought you were saying one way was better than the other, but as has been explained, repeatedly, and even from the article you yourself posted, pH strips will in no way tell you if you have "bad soap" with excess lye (lye-heavy, unsafe soap). They will tell you if your pH levels are high or low. Which is what they are designed to do.



Ok good, I didn't want to turn into a bad guy on my first day of school XD




Kittish said:


> The answer to your question is the full normal range of pH for soap, provided it has been tested for the presence of unreacted lye. pH does not in any way indicate the presence or absence of unreacted lye. One possible exception- if your soap tests to a pH of 14 or higher, I'd feel pretty safe in assuming the presence of lye. Also, keep in mind that pH strips are notoriously unreliable, and their reported results are entirely useless if the correct procedure isn't followed. So, if you just rub the test strip on a patch of wet soap, you will not get an accurate reading, so why bother with the test in the first place?




Which brings me back to my first question, why do "experts" say to use this test?  That's what is boggling my mind. I've read several books from 5 different authors and they have all said the same thing on how to test soap(if it wasn't the strips it was the dye)they have all mentioned the zap test. If it's such a bad idea why continue to repeat the same bad information over and over again? Just like the vinegar on a lye burn, that's not true, that's like putting butter on a real burn.[emoji848]


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## MissLunaB (Sep 21, 2017)

And just so you guys know I liked licking almost dead 9v batteries all the time as a kid because I like the sensation XD that was before I lost it at the tip of my tongue


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 21, 2017)

The vinegar on lye is a good example - it makes "sense" in that you need an acid to neutralise a base effectively.  But the effect would be thermal burns from the reaction!  Like HP needing no cure, the "experts" hear it or read it and repeat it.  Then someone else reads that and repeats it.  And so on. 

Not only that, but with something more static like a book or a blog post, it is harder to make sure that the reader understands the process which might leave the author open to action if the reader does it wrong - "you said to zap test so I shoved a handful of soap batter in to my mouth, now give me money because I was injured"


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## jcandleattic (Sep 21, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Like HP needing no cure, the "experts" hear it or read it and repeat it.  Then someone else reads that and repeats it.  And so on.



Oh boy! YES! This one drives me nuts. What people _seem_ to fail to realize is that even CP is "safe" to use once it has saponified, and there is no active lye (within 2-3 days usually) but there is no way I would use that 'young' of a CP soap, same as I would never use a 1 day old HP soap. Just because it's safe doesn't mean it's not harsh. 

Anyway, thank you EG for the analogies, they are perfect.


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## SparksnFlash (Sep 21, 2017)

MissLunaB - I could read your posts all day.  You obviously have a terrific sense of humor and quick wit.  Your first soap looks lovely and your post seems to read that you made under a bit of pressure - so KUDOS to you.  For starters you might try making the same recipe again without distractions and see what happens.  (After a while you'll run out of olive, just grab the "mediterranean blend" and see what happens.)  I came across one of my favorite recipes when I replaced PKO with Cocoa Butter and ricebran with avacado.  Happy surprises happen.

I personnally don't zap test much, though will from time to time if I'm unsure about a cure.  It reminds me of when I was a girl and got soap shoved in my mouth for talking back or being a smart mouth - - It's a wonder I don't blow bubbles to this day.  On this site feather's get ruffled, fur flies and toes get tapped on.  Some have inveterate beliefs and are not shy.  There are many, many seasoned and knowledgeable soponifiers willing to help and guide you.  You'll pick what works best for you.


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## MissLunaB (Oct 5, 2017)

Gini said:


> MissLunaB - I could read your posts all day.  You obviously have a terrific sense of humor and quick wit.  Your first soap looks lovely and your post seems to read that you made under a bit of pressure - so KUDOS to you.  For starters you might try making the same recipe again without distractions and see what happens.  (After a while you'll run out of olive, just grab the "mediterranean blend" and see what happens.)  I came across one of my favorite recipes when I replaced PKO with Cocoa Butter and ricebran with avacado.  Happy surprises happen.
> 
> I personnally don't zap test much, though will from time to time if I'm unsure about a cure.  It reminds me of when I was a girl and got soap shoved in my mouth for talking back or being a smart mouth - - It's a wonder I don't blow bubbles to this day.  On this site feather's get ruffled, fur flies and toes get tapped on.  Some have inveterate beliefs and are not shy.  There are many, many seasoned and knowledgeable soponifiers willing to help and guide you.  You'll pick what works best for you.





Thank you for your kind words and advice Gini! Words of encouragement like these is what keeps people from giving up and moving on (not saying that I was)Thank you! 
As for my silliness well let's just say it will pop up from time to time, this bud of sunshine likes to put smiles on people's faces  
~Luna


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## Skatergirl46 (Oct 5, 2017)

Are you guys putting your tongue on the soap directly? Yikes! Zap test by wetting a finger and gently rubbing it on the soap, then touch a small part of your tongue to your finger tip. We are talking about a tiny amount. You will know if it zaps.


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## jcandleattic (Oct 5, 2017)

Skatergirl46 said:


> Are you guys putting your tongue on the soap directly? Yikes! Zap test by wetting a finger and gently rubbing it on the soap, then touch a small part of your tongue to your finger tip. We are talking about a tiny amount. You will know if it zaps.



If done correctly, NO, you don't put your tongue directly to the soap. 
The correct way to zap test is described in a link that Kittish posted early in this thread.


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## Skatergirl46 (Oct 5, 2017)

I was asking if others were putting their tongues directly on it. It seemed like that was what they were saying in some of the posts.


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