# Maximum Superfat



## Dean (Jun 5, 2018)

Hi All.

I'd like to increase the SF in my recipe beyond 5%.  I read somewhere that you shouldn't go beyond a certain percentage or it will retard lather, soften the bar and cause rancidity.  I can't remember where I read that and couldn't find it by searching SMF although I'm sure this has been discussed a 1000 times here.   Please let me know if you know the max SF threshold.

Thanks in advance.


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## dixiedragon (Jun 5, 2018)

Typically I wouldn't go above 10%, unless it's a salt bar and then go up to 20%. I assume at some point you'd have too much oil and the soap wouldn't solidify, but I don't know what that is. Make small batches and go up in increments of 5%.


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## soapmaker (Jun 5, 2018)

Ditto.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 5, 2018)

A change of 2-3% will reduce lather a noticeable amount. So if you're at 5% and go to 8%, you should expect less lather. 

Here's an example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/amathiasoapworks/6878518116/in/set-72157629324839760/ Compare photo set 1 at 8% SF with photo set 1A at 5% SF.

As far as the max SF, that limit is whatever works for you. I'd say Dixie's suggestions are typical for most soapers, but I know people who set the SF over 10% for even a normal type bath bar.

Remember that NaOH is never 100% pure so the difference between 100% (which is what online soap calcs assume) and the actual purity of your NaOH adds another few percent of "hidden" superfat.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 5, 2018)

As above. The question is why. If your soap is too harsh, change the recipe. A balanced recipe at 5% should be fine for pretty much everyone


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## shunt2011 (Jun 5, 2018)

I use to SF at 7-8% but decided to drop it to 5% and it made a huge difference in lather.  Didn't really notice much change elsewhere though.  Plus noticed less scum in the tub.  That was before I started using EDTA (when I remember).   The only time I use a higher SF with my salt bars.


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## IrishLass (Jun 5, 2018)

I find it really depends on the recipe as to how much superfat it can take while still producing enough bubblage to satisfy me (and not turn into a DOS-fest). My 2 main formulas are quite stable on the DOS-front and do quite well on the bubblage scale with a superfat of anywhere up to 8%, which means I can adjust the superfat according to the skin-needs of whomever I've gifting my soap to without having to change up the formula itself.

With my 100% coconut oil soap, I superfat at 20% without there being any lack of sudsy lather whatsoever, and since coconut oil is very stable, there's no DOS whatsoever either.

I can't say it would be the same for the recipe I use for my facial soap, though. That one would turn into a mush-fest for sure if I amped up the superfat.

As I always like to say, 'Formula, formula, formula!' 


IrishLass


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## amd (Jun 5, 2018)

I superfat at 3%. Just this weekend I had coffee with another soapmaker, she says she does 10% SF, and does a water discount of 10% (which I didn't fully understand because when it comes to water amounts my brain only understands water:lye ratio, and I didn't ask her about it more because we segued into a different aspect of soaping). I only mention this because I have used her soaps and they are lovely. I wouldn't have guessed a 10% SF if she hadn't told me. I wouldn't think her water discount would play a part in the high SF and quality of her soap, but not fully understanding what she does, I thought I would throw it all out there. I do feel like I could be misunderstanding what she meant about the water discount, so please don't beat me up too badly over it


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## DeeAnna (Jun 5, 2018)

I wouldn't worry too much about figuring out the fine points of "water discount." You're better off just sticking with your water:lye ratio. That determines the amount of water based on the weight of alkali (NaOH and/or KOH). You will get more consistent results from recipe to recipe.

As far as high superfat making the soap soft -- I suppose it could, especially with high linoleic oils (corn, canola, soy, hemp, etc.) but I've seen a lot of high superfat soap that seems reasonably firm. I think the result depends on the recipe.


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## Dean (Jun 5, 2018)

Thanks all for the responses.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 6, 2018)

Dean said:


> Thanks all for the responses.


I'm still interested to know what your reasoning is here


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## Dean (Jun 6, 2018)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm still interested to know what your reasoning is here



To make it little less drying.  Its a balanced bar though that followed all the rules...< 15% lauric+myristic....full 6 weeks of curing.


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## dixiedragon (Jun 6, 2018)

Can you post your recipe? Off the top of my head, I'd suggest trying a recipe with less (or no) coconut oil. And of course LARD.  Also, you may just prefer a longer cure.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 6, 2018)

Or chelation, or a number of different things. Upping the superfat to 10% for a balanced bar would not be the ideal solution in many cases. Not least of which the number it'd do to your plumbing


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## Dean (Jun 6, 2018)

dixiedragon said:


> Can you post your recipe? Off the top of my head, I'd suggest trying a recipe with less (or no) coconut oil. And of course LARD.  Also, you may just prefer a longer cure.



Hi Dix.  I don't use lard or palm for ethical reasons.   

This recipe would be a little difficult to create for you because  its two batches combined.  Half of it grated to salvage a batch too high (30%)  CO and then mixed with a new batch w/o CO.  Sorry.  I can say that it is 15% CO with no other lauric or myristic oils.

Its not terribly drying like before but its not "moisturizing" either.  I know soap cleans not moisturizes.

I have single batch soap drying.  I'll post that recipe once I test it.  Thx


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## dixiedragon (Jun 7, 2018)

If not lard or palm and I'm assuming no tallow, maybe this recipe:

Castor 5
Coconut 20
Shea butter 50
Sunflower 25
2% superfat.

This needs a longer cure - 8 weeks at least. But it is very nice! You could try dropping the coconut a bit on this one as wel.


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## Dean (Sep 14, 2018)

Just showered with my 15% CO/10% SF bar.  The bar was hard so SF did not affect hardness.  I should be a walking oil slick. It did not leave ANY oil residue after shower.  I didn’t slip on greasy tiles and break a hip.  I was literally squeaky clean and able to snap my fingers in the shower...which I can’t  do when they are greasy.  Face is tight and drying out.  Will prob need to moisterize b4 going to sleep. I’m inclined to think that a certain knowledgeable SMFer is correct about superfat and its fictious claims.  However, my shower test makes me want to test the SF limits.  If 10% does nothing, what will 20% SF do with low to no lauric/myristic.  Maybe it needs to be super high like Dove with “1/4 Moisterizering Cream”  to make difference.  I know..I know...Dove is synthetic and the cream claim is false.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Sep 15, 2018)

One of the most common high superfat soaps are 100% coconut with a 20% superfat. I have done it. I like it. Some people hate it. Coconut soap is hard even at 20% sf and someone here uses a 25% so really is not surprising that a 10% sf was okay.


My only issue with 100% coconut is that it melts super fast so it doesnt last long. I prefer my salt bara and I also use 20% sf on them.


If you really REALLY want to test the limits of Sf i would go to 30. And check back to tell how it went.


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## SaltedFig (Sep 15, 2018)

Dean said:


> Just showered with my 15% CO/10% SF bar.  The bar was hard so SF did not affect hardness.  I should be a walking oil slick. It did not leave ANY oil residue after shower.  I didn’t slip on greasy tiles and break a hip.  I was literally squeaky clean and able to snap my fingers in the shower...which I can’t  do when they are greasy.  Face is tight and drying out.  Will prob need to moisterize b4 going to sleep. I’m inclined to think that a certain knowledgeable SMFer is correct about superfat and its fictious claims.  However, my shower test makes ne want to test the SF limits.  If 10% does nothing, what will 20% SF do with low to no lauric/myristic.  Maybe it needs to be super high like Dove with “1/4 Moisterizering Cream”  to make difference.  I know..I know Dove is synthetic...



Or it could be that coconut soap is so good at stripping, it's stripped your skin oils AND it's own soapy superfat ... leaving you squeaky dry. 

The same in a low cleansing soap might have a different result.


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## Dean (Sep 15, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Or it could be that coconut soap is so good at stripping, it's stripped your skin oils AND it's own soapy superfat ... leaving you squeaky.



Thats what  a SMFer  says in her article...that SF just gets washed away which would explain why 100CO/20SF is very drying.  

Im wondering if SF some how can counteract CO, it has to be at a ratio such as 1:1 or higher.  Maybe I’ll try 10CO/10SF. Not sure if that low of CO will provide any lathering boost tho...


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## Obsidian (Sep 15, 2018)

I'm wondering if you are just sensitive to one of your ingredients? My skin hates olive oil, if I use more than 20% I get tight, dry skin. I've actually completely stopped using OO, instead I use HO safflower.

Maybe try a couple test batches, one with no coconut and one a different oleic oil. When I first started soaping, I tried increasing SF to counter the tight skin but it never helped. I even made a 25% SF once, it was slightly oily and lathered weakly. It did leave a oily film on the skin but due to the OO, I ended up with dry/tight oily skin. It was terrible.

I kept playing around with my recipe until I found one that my skin likes. Too bad you can't use lard, it may very well be the ingredient you need.

Its also possible you just can't use lye soap on your face. I can't without it getting dry. I still use it but I know I'll have to use a moisturiser afterwards. 
I've actually returned to store bought cleansers for my face. Cold cream to remove make up, Eucerin cleanser for regular washing.
When I do use soap, I do so with only my hands. Any kind of washcloth just makes it more stripping.


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## earlene (Sep 15, 2018)

Remember this is wash-off, so the excess oil isn't staying on the skin even while you are washing.  Your skin is not absorbing this excess oil, because while washing you are using friction (if you are washing normally.)  It's only there for a few seconds, then down the drain it goes.  I really think you would be better off eliminating CO from your recipe if such a low percentage of CO is so drying to your skin.

Or look at the other other oils in the recipe and consider that something else in the recipe is causing that dryness.  A couple of folks here at SMF find that their skin does not respond well to OO, as Obsidian mentions above, so it's not unheard of that other oils in soap can cause dryness.  It really does depend on ones own skin.

Increasing SF tends to cause plumbing problems for folks who live in houses with very old plumbing or thinner plumbing pipes as reported by a few soapers here at SMF.  I prefer to use a low SF in most of my soaps so I am not introducing more stuff to clog the drains.  Additionally, the higher SF also creates more soap scum and increases the need to clean the sinks, too.  IMO high SF is really more of a waste of oil than beneficial.

ETA:  Like Obsidian, I do not use soap on my face either.  Some folks facial skin don't respond well to soap.


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## Dean (Sep 15, 2018)

Obsidian said:


> When I first started soaping, I tried increasing SF to counter the tight skin but it never helped. I even made a 25% SF once, it was slightly oily and lathered weakly. It did leave a oily film on the skin but due to the OO, I ended up with dry/tight oily skin. It was terrible.



25% SF = 1/4 moisterizing cream.  U made Dove!  JK.  Thx for sharing.  U confirmed my hypothesis that u have to go very high on the SF to get a result, albeit not the one u wanted.  Im curious what % CO or lauric+myristic was ur 25% SF soap.

For sometime now Ive been cleansing my face with only hydrosol.  Will go back to it. Waiting for shipments to make a gentle facial cleanser/moisturizer.


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## Obsidian (Sep 15, 2018)

Dean said:


> 25% SF = 1/4 moisterizing cream.  U made Dove!  JK.  Thx for sharing.  U confirmed my hypothesis that u have to go very high on the SF to get a result, albeit not the one u wanted.  Im curious what % CO or lauric+myristic was ur 25% SF soap.
> 
> For sometime now Ive been cleansing my face with only hydrosol.  Will go back to it. Waiting for shipments to make a gentle facial cleanser/moisturizer.



Lol, the only moisturizing ingredient in dove is water. Its been a long time since I made the 25% SF and I no longer have the notes but most likely the coconut was 20%-25%
Nowadays, I use coconut at 15%-20%, depending on who the soap is for. I might even go a bit lower if its mostly for me.


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