# My CP recipes - advice please!



## Paddyfrances (Nov 13, 2014)

Hello,
I'm new to CP soap making and am utterly addicted and utterly confused!
I've been using two recipes and would really appreciate your advice about them as I am now doubting everything I'm doing!

I use Soapcalc for the water and lye amounts, in fact I follow Soapcalc to the letter!

The first one is 5 oils:

Sunflower Oil - 20%
Coconut Oil - 30%
Olive Oil - 30%
Shea Butter - 15%
Castor Oil - 5%

The Soapcalc numbers are:

Hardness - 38
Cleansing - 20
Conditioning - 58
Bubbly - 25
Creamy - 22
Iodine - 68
INS - 143

I have used this one a lot but found that it takes ages to harden enough to take out of the mould - 2 to 3 days at least.
Once out the soap is still soft for a good week to two weeks afterwards.
So I then started using Sodium Lactate at 2% of the total oils weight.
Its helped a bit but not that much.

I then tried the second recipe as I had read that sunflower oil is slow to saponify and produces a soft bar.

Coconut Oil - 35%
Castor Oil - 5%
Shea Butter - 25%
Olive Oil - 35%

The Soapcalc numbers are:

Hardness - 45
Cleansing - 23
Conditioning - 51
Bubbly - 28
Creamy - 26
Iodine - 52
INS - 161

Both recipes seem to work as soap but I'm really struggling to know what's best.
I want to be able to sell my soap (as there's only so much soap a family of 4 can use!) but need a safety assessment of my basic recipe as the first step in the process.
But I can't even decide on a basic recipe!
I really would appreciate any advice you can give me.

Many thanks,
Paddyfrances


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 13, 2014)

I take it that you are EU based then?  

You need time.  Lots of time.  Two recipes to choose from when you have to shell out for a safety assessment is no where near enough.  Selling should be at the back of the mind until you have got something that you totally love and are 100% happy to stick with, or getting it approved and on the web portal is just a waste of time and money.

But your question is interesting - what is the best soap?  There is no answer to that, or if there is then thare are a few million answers to that!  What are you looking for in a soap?  What do you want it to do, to achieve?  What do you want it to not do?

Why have you chosen these recipes?  Why these oils in that amount?  You mentioned wanting a physically harder bar at unmoulding time, but what else do they do that you like about them?  What other oils have you tried and ruled out?

Soaping is essentially answering the question "What if I did this...............................?" by trying it out.  There are a lot of posts on this forum (I would read at least the first 10 pages of the beginner and CP forums as a starter for 10) which can help us avoid totally unsuitable ideas but then someone will suggest something that we have to give a go.  Sometimes it is better than our previous soap, sometimes not - depends on the person and a few other variables, too!

While you are getting there, give your soap away.  The costs of setting up are worth offsetting by getting it done right.


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## shunt2011 (Nov 13, 2014)

Hello and welcome!   The first thing I would do is drop your coconut oil down to 20-22%.  Too much CO can make your soap drying to the skin.   I would also add some palm or lard to your recipe to replace part of your sunflowerand shea and keep your shea to around 10%.  When you have liquid oils at 50% or more it can take longer until you can unmold the soap.

You can also try adding some salt to your water before the lye.  Dissolve it well.  I add 1 tsp per lb of oils.   That will help with making it a bit harder when unmolding.

I keep my cleansing #'s between 10-17.


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## Susie (Nov 13, 2014)

Hey and welcome!  You certainly came to the right place for help!

Each person's "best" recipe is as individual to them as their fingerprints.  But, there are a few rules of thumb that we can share that may help you get started. 

My thoughts on your recipes:

1.  Too much coconut.  Try to bring that down in the 20% range.  I find more than that leads to a tight/dry feeling on my skin.
2.  You need add either palm, tallow, or lard to your recipe in about a 30-60% range to get the hardness you want, and give you a long lasting bar.  
3.  I would ditch the sunflower oil also, but that is just me.  You may find that you like it in conjunction with the olive oil.

Back when I was first learning about making soap, one of the authors said you needed to have brittle at room temperature oils(coconut, PKO), solid at room temperature oils(palm, tallow, lard), and liquid at room temperature oils(olive, sweet almond, sunflower, etc) to make good soap.  I have stuck with that with excellent results.

Hope that helps!


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## Paddyfrances (Nov 13, 2014)

*Thank you!*

Thank you so much for the three responses, your advice is very much appreciated.

I have tried many recipes using Rice Bran, Avocado, Sweet Almond and Grapeseed along with pomace, sunflower, castor and coconut.
The one including Avocado Oil is still soft after 10 weeks and the sweet almond batch went into the bin!

I decided to use Shea Butter as my daughter has psoriasis and she uses L'Occitane Shea products which do help her skin.
However, you've helped me realise that including coconut at high amounts is not helping as it going to dry her skin even more.

The trouble is that I won't use palm because of the environmental issues and I can't use animal products such as tallow or lard.
I know I'm not really helping myself with this one but I can't get round it.
So I'm stuck with trying to come up with alternatives and as you can see am making a bit of a mess of it!

I do appreciate your help,
Regards,
Paddy


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 13, 2014)

Would be interested to see what the avo one was that it was so soft.  A lot of people have success with it here.  

Have a look through the older posts at recipes and pointers, there is so much to learn about recipe formulation back there.  A gold mine


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## Susie (Nov 13, 2014)

OK, no tallow/palm/lard.  I think some people use sodium lactate to help harden bars or a bit of salt.  If you use the salt, be sure to completely dissolve the salt in some hot water(subtract that amount from the total amount the recipe calls for) before mixing in with the lye.  There are folks who use these things routinely, so I am confident you will be seeing their replies soon.


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## JustBeachy (Nov 13, 2014)

Look into using beeswax. I've heard people say they have trouble with it, but I use it in every soap I make with the exception of my salt bars. I just melt it with my some of my base oils, right to the point of melting, then take the oils off to cool. Stir the oils as they're cooling and soap at between 100 and 110. 

For a recipe suggestion, using your ingredients plus beeswax.

Here's a suggestion. 

Castor 5%
Coconut 20%
Olive 44%
Avocado,RBO,or any of your choices. 15%
Shea Butter 15%
Beeswax 1%

Play with your superfat to get it non drying, yet still hard. I'd keep it between 6-8%  Add 1 tsp per pound of oils of Sodium Lactate, or even just some reg non iodized salt.  The SL really just helps it harden up for the unmolding, from my experience. 

The rules of having to use palm, lard etc are in my opinion, not exactly written in stone.I recently went back to an old base recipe of mine. No palm, no lard, no tallow. Yet I produce a bar that is hard in 4 weeks, lasts great in the shower.

I love the saying, "those who say it can't be done, are usually interrupted by others doing it."


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 13, 2014)

JustBeachy said:


> ............The rules of having to use palm, lard etc are in my opinion, not exactly written in stone.I recently went back to an old base recipe of mine. No palm, no lard, no tallow. Yet I produce a bar that is hard in 4 weeks, lasts great in the shower.
> 
> I love the saying, "those who say it can't be done, are usually interrupted by others doing it."


 
Although by using shea, you are using something that has an almost identical soapy profile as lard and palm, but just costs a lot more! :shh:


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## Meganmischke (Nov 13, 2014)

I have heard of some using a large percentage of shea or cocoa butter to make up for a lack of other hard oils. I don't have a specific formula but some experimenting will be in order on any case. 

Soap queen has some palm free recipes that don't have animal fats. 

The advice to wait on the safety assessment is very smart. If you are not happy with what you currently have why bother? 

I don't think that there is anything wrong with having too much soap. As long as you are living within your means and sticking to a budget there is no reason soapmaking can't be just a hobby.


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## JustBeachy (Nov 13, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Although by using shea, you are using something that has an almost identical soapy profile as lard and palm, but just costs a lot more! :shh:



That is true. And goes to my point of  the idea that the trio of Lard, Tallow, Palm, needing to be used, is written in dry erase marker, not in stone. haha


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 13, 2014)

JustBeachy said:


> That is true. And goes to my point of the idea that the trio of Lard, Tallow, Palm, needing to be used, is written in dry erase marker, not in stone. haha


 
Very true.  Although the enviromental issues of palm can also apply to butters...............


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## Paddyfrances (Nov 13, 2014)

I am over the moon with the help and advice you are all giving me.
I am so pleased I posted my cry for help!

I realise now that I was getting so hung up on the two recipes I had decided on and was going for it no matter what!

Since reading through your responses I have had a really good think and asked myself loads of questions as to what oils I'm using and why and what percentages etc.
Why am I so obsessed with Shea Butter when it is so expensive???

I've now gone back to the drawing board (and Soapcalc) and have come up with a few variations as per your suggestions and I'm going to try a few test batches tonight.

The safety assessment can wait till after Christmas as I'd just be throwing good money away at the moment!
Many many thanks,
Paddy


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 13, 2014)

I'd say wait even longer - seriously, you need to see what a soap is like in a year before you consider selling it.  Don't forget that a few moments ago you would have gotten a certificate for one of those other two recipes.  Imagine what a soap 6 months of playing will result in!


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## JustBeachy (Nov 13, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'd say wait even longer - seriously, you need to see what a soap is like in a year before you consider selling it.  Don't forget that a few moments ago you would have gotten a certificate for one of those other two recipes.  Imagine what a soap 6 months of playing will result in!



I have to agree with the Gent here. You really have no idea what your soap truly is, until it's been around for a while. Longer than 6 months.   You may find it's better than what you thought. Or, it could be something else.....

Patience is definitely a virtue in the world of soap making.


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## girlishcharm2004 (Nov 13, 2014)

Have you heard of salt water soap?  It's salt added to the lye water.  It's 25% the weight of the water -- so 10 oz of water would be 2.5 oz of salt.  It's less salt than a salt bar, but more than just adding a teaspoon or so to the lye water.  Unlike a salt bar where the salt is crystaline, the salt is completely dissolved in the lye water.  Just a thought about hardening your recipe.


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## Paddyfrances (Nov 14, 2014)

Thank you for the salt water soap suggestion, I am going to give it a go.
I didn't get the chance to do some test batches last night but I've got all day today so I'll have a bash at that one too.
I've been making soap now for 6 months and loving it to bits but it does have its down side - I'm running out of space to put it all!


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## girlishcharm2004 (Nov 14, 2014)

Paddyfrances said:


> Thank you for the salt water soap suggestion, I am going to give it a go.
> I didn't get the chance to do some test batches last night but I've got all day today so I'll have a bash at that one too.
> I've been making soap now for 6 months and loving it to bits but it does have its down side - I'm running out of space to put it all!



Ahaha, I know what you mean! I have soap hidden everywhere!  It's in my sock drawer, under the cabinets, in the cupboards, in the garage, on the fireplace mantle, on my desk... just to name a few.

Let us know if you're experiments prove worthwhile.


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## Susie (Nov 15, 2014)

Shea butter is an awesome butter to use for body butters, lotions, lip balms, etc.  Leave on products.  You don't need much of it to make a real impact on those recipes.  So while I personally don't think it adds anything to soap, I LOVE it in my lip balm and body butter!


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## coffeetime (Nov 15, 2014)

I make a soap without Palm or animal fats and it's hard enough to cut 18 hours later. I use 10%cocoa butter in the recipe to give it hardness and water discount a bit. Also, I've found that larger %s of shea butter reduce the lather, so I keep it at 5-6%. This is what time and experimentation will teach you. Keep plugging away!


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## JustBeachy (Nov 15, 2014)

coffeetime said:


> I make a soap without Palm or animal fats and it's hard enough to cut 18 hours later. I use 10%cocoa butter in the recipe to give it hardness and water discount a bit. Also, I've found that larger %s of shea butter reduce the lather, so I keep it at 5-6%. This is what time and experimentation will teach you. Keep plugging away!



I have to join you on the butter wagon. I have 8% butter in my main recipe. It adjusts a little up and down, whether i'm using shea, mango or cocoa. No lard, no tallow, no palm. I'm cutting anywhere from 16 to 18 hours with no problems. 

I've tested some runs with and without butters. Three oil recipes, just to see the effects. No offense to those who say they can't tell the difference, but to me it's a very noticeable difference. And with the amount in the recipe, it's just not that expensive for the difference it makes. Just my opinion.


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## Susie (Nov 15, 2014)

That's part of the beauty of this forum.  We all give our opinions and then people get to try multiple ways, or just one way that sounds good to them.


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## JustBeachy (Nov 15, 2014)

Susie said:


> That's part of the beauty of this forum. We all give our opinions and then people get to try multiple ways, or just one way that sounds good to them.


 
I agree wholeheartedly. This forum is really good about differing opinions without the typical "I'm right/you're wrong" attitudes. Makes for a great learning and information forum.

So in keeping with my spirit of experimentation and not doing something, just because it's the way I like it, I ran a experiment. I did this experiment back on the 16th of Nov, so the soaps are at the 4 week mark now. 

Gent made a point that by using shea butter i was effectively using something with the same "soapy" values as Palm. I can't argue with the numbers on the calc. But I have always had a perceived difference when I used Shea. So I took an old recipe of mine with 20% palm and 8% Shea butter and made it as my control bar. 

We'll call it Bar 1

Next I took the same recipe, removed the shea butter and moved the palm to 28%

We'll call it Bar 2

Last I took the same recipe and removed the palm, upped the Shea butter to 28%

That would be Bar 3.

Results : I did a shower test with all three bars over the last couple of days. Bar 1 produced a creamy and somewhat bubbly lather. Skin felt smooth after the fact. The bar is hard, but still a little bit of curing would help.

Bar 2 was about the same hardness, more bubbly than Bar 1, but felt a little more drying after the shower. 

Bar 3 was hard as a rock. Hardly any bubbles, but a really rich creamy lather. An hour since I took a shower with it and my skin still feels soft and silky. 

If I had to pick a bar it would probably be number one, because number 3 was closer to a Castille soap. But I would say without a doubt, I could tell the difference. According to the numbers, maybe there shouldn't be a difference, but apparently the soap never read that article. 

I'm not saying throw out all the numbers, just that some items bring things to the soap that can't be substituted by similar items. I'll stick to my proven recipe, exclude the palm and keep the butters. I've been using mango butter in place of shea in the last 5 or 6 batches. While the oldest one with mango is only three weeks old, I can feel a difference in how the bar "feels" when rubbing it. Sorry, I'll stay a believer in the butters.


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## IrishLass (Dec 17, 2014)

Great experiment! 



JustBeachy said:


> I'm not saying throw out all the numbers, just that some items bring things to the soap that can't be substituted by similar items.



True that. One of the nice things that shea brings to the table is that it has about 8% unsaponifiables, which contain anti-inflammatory constituents (according to the info I got from Swiftcraftymonkey's blog).


IrishLass


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