# Selling Soap Before Cure w/ "Don't Use Until" Date?



## AlchemyandAshes

This isn't the first time I've seen this, but today a "fellow soaper" told me at a craft show I participated in that she went home LAST NIGHT  to make more soap to sell TODAY.  :Kitten Love: 
I asked if she did Cold Process, and she said yes.
She said she puts a date on the label and tells them "Do not use until this date".  :shock: 
HOW MANY CUSTOMERS ARE GOING TO BUY SOAP TODAY, READ THAT DATE, NOT KNOW WHY THEY SHOULD WAIT, THINK ITS NO BIG DEAL AND USE THAT SOAP TONIGHT?
Here's my issues with this:
1. A lot of people don't read labels. That's their responsibility, yes, but if your selling a product before its ready to use...that's your bad.
2. Most people have no idea that soap is cured. They don't know why it's cured. So telling them its not cured yet and wait to use it is probably not going to make sense to them. You are handing them an unfinished product. Do you think they go home and write it on their calendars in 4 weeks: "I can finally use the soap I purchased last month!"?
3. Even with a steep water discount, I doubt her soaps were firm enough in 12 hours (at most) to handle without making marks and finger prints all over them, much less dents and gouges.
4. Even HP should be cured. Yeah yeah, you CAN use it right away...technically, if you gel your CP soap you COULD use it the next day or day after (we all test our own soap, right?) but the pH is going to be higher, it's going to melt right down the drain because its still soft, and your lather isn't going to be at its best. The thought of a customer using my fresh soap and either (best case scenario) finding it at subpar quality than my fully cured soap or (worst case scenario) having skin issues because of the high alkalinity of fresh CP makes me cringe   :shifty: 

AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THIS?


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## danahuff

You are not the only one who has a problem with it. Funnily enough, the first person I bought handmade soap from used to do this all the time, and until I made soap, I didn't understand what she was doing. She would tell customers to wait two weeks before using and even had a space on her labels where she'd write the date when it was cut, and it was always only a few days before she sold it. So she was probably counting on the customer to give the soap a two-week cure (never mind that it should have been a four-week cure anyway). I was ignorant at the time. I just thought it was something to do with handmade soap. 

I have trouble getting family and friends to understand this concept. It's probably partially my fault because it a soap turns out nice, I usually take picture of it and put it on Facebook or show the pictures to work friends, and they always want that one, right away. When I tell them it won't be ready for four weeks, well, that's not what they want to hear. I can't in good conscience sell soap that isn't ready to be used. If I were giving soap as a gift for Christmas and knew it would remain unopened, by which time the soap would be fully cured, it would be different.

You are absolutely right about others not knowing why they should wait and what a cure accomplishes. I would just keep doing the right thing.


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## green soap

This is one of my pet peeves too.  Every soap I have purchased from soap makers in my area has been under cured.

I never sell under cured soap myself, my wait times are at least 4 weeks for CP and at least 8 weeks for salt soaps.  Folks don't know about the cure times and if you use a soap before it is ready it will not reflect well on the quality of your soap.  So if I run out of a scent I tell people that I made another batch and it is curing, and it will be ready in X number of weeks.  Some of my customers are catching on to this and when I have a favorite scent available they purchase multiple bars. I think it also helps my customers appreciate the soap even more.


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## IrishLass

Alchemy&Ashes said:
			
		

> AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THIS?



No, not by far. It's one of my biggest pet peeves.........other than new soapers who have only been making soap for a month or two at the most and think it's perfectly fine to start selling their first batches right away, while advertising medical claims on them besides.

IrishLass


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## thefarmerdaughter

You should ask this "fellow soaper" Would she purchase wine that wasn't done fermenting? or how about cheese that wasn't done ageing?


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## chicklet

I think that practice is just bad all the way around.  We've all heard tales of the lye soap great great granny used to make and a lot of the times the tales weren't good - maybe it was just that the grannies in my family didn't know what they were doing, but older relatives talk about the harshness or downright skin burning properties of the soap.  I know that today we use more precise scales, a stable lye product, better oils, etc., but it makes me wonder if the people who sell soap before its time are contributing to the "harsh lye soap" fears.  Plus, how could that be good for their business?? Don't they want repeat customers?


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## AlchemyandAshes

I also went to her website and saw her listings for "All Natural" soaps used Fragrance Oils.  :evil:


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## petrolejka

Alchemy&Ashes said:
			
		

> I also went to her website and saw her listings for "All Natural" soaps used Fragrance Oils.  :evil:



Before I started to look into soap making and such I had no idea FO were not natural. It irritates me when people and companies try to sell more product by misleading or straight up lying about things like this. One of the reasons I love that I can make my own soap. Even though it's still pretty crappy but eventually good soap for my family. 
I especially dislike Avon for calling their body products "Naturals" but when you look at the ingredients list there's not all that much natural going on. 

Sorry for the /rant

As far as selling fresh soap - I'd never be a returning customer. I would not be able to wait 4 weeks before using it and then would be disappointed in the quality of the product and think all handmade soaps are like that. That seller hurts her own business and gives handmade soap bad rep


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## AngelMomma

What???!!!  Thats asking for a case in civil court.  

I saw start up booth at a local flea market.  No product yet, just signs.  "NO CHEMICALS, ALL NATURAL"  Sooooo.....I guess they aren't using Lye in their soap or preservatives in their lotions!   HA!  If I had a clean sheet of paper and a roll of tape I could have corrected their mistake  :twisted:  :twisted:   Hahaha, just kidding, I couldn't do that.  Hope I don't see the person there though.  I don't know how I would handle that.


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## pleiades

As a newbie, I was wondering how soap makers who sell their products manage this. I started making soap 3 months ago as Christmas presents and by Christmas day all my soaps will be at least 6 weeks old. I have in the last week made a couple of batches and wondered about including these in the 'soap hampers'. I decided it would be awkward, I'd have to explain why the soap couldn't be used and ensure people understood.  However, Explaining to family is one thing but selling bars without the information on why the soap shouldn't be used is an entirely different one and one that I had been wondering if it was legal.

On another note, this forum is brilliant. I have done research online and bought a book (which suggests 3-5% superfatting) and here I am learning daily about superfatting, troubleshooting and lots of other ideas. It's all in one place, all so available and seems like such a friendly forum.


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## AlchemyandAshes

petrolejka said:
			
		

> As far as selling fresh soap - I'd never be a returning customer. I would not be able to wait 4 weeks before using it and then would be disappointed in the quality of the product and think all handmade soaps are like that. That seller hurts her own business and gives handmade soap bad rep


My husband said the exact same thing.


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## Lindy

I have seen some of the best and biggest sellers (handcrafters) do pre-buys of their products.  We all know that once the soap quits zapping it is safe and if they are labeling the products with a do not use before date they are legally safe.  Mind you if it is still zapping when packaged then I believe there is a problem.

Just my take on it - sorry.....


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## AlchemyandAshes

Lindy said:
			
		

> I have seen some of the best and biggest sellers (handcrafters) do pre-buys of their products.  We all know that once the soap quits zapping it is safe and if they are labeling the products with a do not use before date they are legally safe.  Mind you if it is still zapping when packaged then I believe there is a problem.



What do you mean by "legally safe"?

I do not know the differences between US and Canadian law where the sale of handcrafted body products are concerned, but here in the US, there is no governing body that checks the alkalinity of your soap before sale, and I doubt just putting a "do not use until date" on your label doesn't protect you from civil suits in the US - the country where you can sue anyone for anything! So "legally safe" is kind of vague. Maybe someone can shed some light on the legal aspects of such. I wasn't questioning the legality of the sale of uncured soap, just the quality and safety. As much as I don't want the government involved with we small business/hobbyist/crafters...sometimes I think some sort of regulation would help our industry be more respected. When they finally make me Queen, I just may have to invoke those powers... :twisted: 

The FDA has regulations on what is deemed "soap" as opposed to "cosmetic" and does not allow medical claims, but even they don't state what the pH of your soap must be at sale time (that I am aware of). There is the Consumer Product Safety Commission, which I presume is to interfere when a product has been deemed unsafe, but I'm betting a complaint has to be filed first, and most of what I've read about it deals more with making sure that what you label as ingredients are actually your ingredients, and that if your label says 6 oz, it better be 6 oz...or that you're not using hazardous or illegal substances in your products.

The only situation that I personally can see where a pre-sale before cure would be acceptable (in my opinion) is if a repeat customer asks to purchase a special batch and understands the reason for curing. Even then, I wouldn't "trust" that they are going to wait. What if they give it out as gifts and forget to tell that person about the "use date"? And I know the pH of my soap is higher at cut than it is after cure, and I rarely get a zap even right out of the mold. Will it kill them to use fresh soap? No. Will it cause a sensitivity or reaction? Maybe. Is fresh soap at its best? Nope. Do you want customers to "grade your soap" based on day 2 out of the mold? I don't. Sure, it's still just soap...but it will be GREAT soap in 6 weeks!


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## Hausfrau007

I'm sure Lindy misspoke when she said "legally". It's not illegal to sell soaps of any vintage in any country on this planet.


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## 2lilboots

I have made soap recently that I want to give as gifts.  I just told my friends that they wouldn't receive them til almost February.  They are cool with that.  I want to give the soap at least a 6 week cure time.


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## Lindy

Here in Canada we are governed by Health Canada and each recipe must be registered with them as well as your company.  So when I say legally safe I mean that the soap is not lye heavy.  Although Canada doesn't tend to jump into the suing route as much as the US does, if your soap is lye heavy and burns someone you would have a law suit on your hands.  Since we know that saponification is complete within 48 hours for gelled soaps and a week for ungelled then selling them after that time, or after they stop zapping is safe.  Is the soap as nice as it will be in 3 - 4 weeks?  No.  The older the soap gets the nicer is becomes.  We know that Castille is best after a year but are we going to bash people for selling it before then?  No, we're not.  I don't feel there is anything wrong selling your soap with a Best After Date, or a Do Not Use Until Date.  I think there was a time I wouldn't have shaking my fists at people who do that, but not anymore.  Take a look at some of your favourite, or most inspiration soapers and you may find they do "Pre-Buys" which is simply selling the soap with a 2 or 3 week Best After Date.....

So again - legally safe, means that they are no longer zapping....  I know a lady here in town that does HP and sells it the same day.


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## AlchemyandAshes

Lindy said:
			
		

> Here in Canada we are governed by Health Canada and each recipe must be registered with them as well as your company.  So when I say legally safe I mean that the soap is not lye heavy.  Although Canada doesn't tend to jump into the suing route as much as the US does, if your soap is lye heavy and burns someone you would have a law suit on your hands.
> 
> So again - legally safe, means that they are no longer zapping....



Now I understand what you meant...here in the US (as you probably well know) we don't have to register recipes. Zapping or Lye Heavy would be no good no matter what the law or anyone else says  :cry:


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## Lindy

Absolutely Shawnee!  We're closer to to how the UK is regulated than the US, but it's okay as long as you know the rules...


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## AlchemyandAshes

Lindy - Do they charge a separate fee (or any fee?) for each recipe you submit for consideration? And do they just keep it on record in case there is ever a problem, or do they "critique it" safety-wise and tell you yay or nay? I'm intrigued  :think:


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## Maythorn

That would be a turnoff to me.  If I buy something fun and to pamper myself with, I want to use it as soon as I get home.  There's too many other people making stuff good to go and I'd choose theirs unless there was something just outstanding about the unready.  But I can't imagine what.  You can buy fabulous handmade soaps that have been cured from a lot of soapmakers.


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## Lindy

Shawnee each recipe must be submitted but they accept different fragrances and/or essential oils in the same filing.  We don't have to pay for filing and we don't hear from them unless there is a problem.  I've only had them get back to me once because I hadn't named my colourant properly.  They don't critique the products at all.  That would be more like what happens in Europe where you have to have a safety assessment for each recipe but you can get flexible assessments which allow a bunch of different ingredients then for additives you are charged per extra.  Those safety assessments are so expensive!  And in July there are a bunch of changes as to what soapmakers and cosmetic makers have to do :shock:   Over there you can list your essential oils as parfum but you must list the allergens in each EO and FO.

Maythorn I must admit that at this time of the year I am guilty of pre-buys but that is because my customer base demand it as they are buying them for Christmas gifts and they are not going to be used before the Do Not Use Before date.....  I have lots of product that is well and truly cured, but when I run out of something and have it curing they want to be able to buy it.


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## Seifenblasen

I agree selling soap with "do not use until" date is bad for business and can be very annoying.  However, as long as it does not contain unreacted lye, nobody is harmed.



			
				thefarmerdaughter said:
			
		

> You should ask this "fellow soaper" Would she purchase wine that wasn't done fermenting? or how about cheese that wasn't done ageing?



Apples and oranges.  People routinely buy wine "for laying down".  I had some that have been in the cellar for over 10 years.  Are they safe to drink when I first got them?  Absolutely.  But many (not all) continue to improve with aging.


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## thefarmerdaughter

True Seifenblasen, most wines get better with age, as most soaps. Are new wines drinkable? yes Are they as good as the could be if left to age? probably not. My point was this, you wouldn't buy a 'wine' that was still _working _bubbling and frothing away. That's an unfinished product. I feel like fresh soap is, in a way, an unfinished product. I don't feel like it's harmful. And after reading Lindy's posts about the subject, I can see why bushiness would need to sell their soaps in that manner.


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## Lindy

Seifenblausen saponification is complete within 48 hours for CP that is allowed to gel and 7 days for un-gelled soap.  So why would you think that soapers that sell prior to complete cure 'might' be selling soap that would still contain lye?  Interesting comment that...


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## Seifenblasen

> but today a "fellow soaper" told me at a craft show I participated in that she went home LAST NIGHT to make more soap to sell TODAY.



Last time I checked, between "last night" and "today", that's less than 48 hours.  Actually, less than 24 hours.


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## Seifenblasen

thefarmerdaughter said:
			
		

> True Seifenblasen, most wines get better with age, as most soaps. Are new wines drinkable? yes Are they as good as the could be if left to age? probably not. My point was this, you wouldn't buy a 'wine' that was still _working _bubbling and frothing away. That's an unfinished product. I feel like fresh soap is, in a way, an unfinished product. I don't feel like it's harmful. And after reading Lindy's posts about the subject, I can see why bushiness would need to sell their soaps in that manner.



Got it!  I agree 100% that a wine that is still bubbling and frothing is not ready to be sold.   :mrgreen:   Apologies that I did not quite understand you the first time.


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## Maythorn

I guess if the buyer understands it and they don't mind.   I find that my uncured soaps aren't as resiliant to my handling them.  But once past the cure time I'm seeing that I can take them out to examine how they're doing and if I bump one against my anxious hands or each other, they don't suffer.  To band I noticed having to handle the bar a lot to get the cardstock or probably better, just good paper around them.


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## cerelife

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents since no one has mentioned presentation/packaging of uncured soap, but I certainly don't mean to downplay the biggest reason IMHO not to sell uncured soap which has already been mentioned several times....it's nowhere near as great as it would be with a full cure. And BTW, maybe I'm a weirdo, but I choose a bar from the middle of each batch when I cut it as "my" bar to do a zap test on just to make sure I haven't jacked things up!
While I don't sell my soap, I DO want it to look nice when I give it away so I created my own packaging (scrapbook paper with a reverse cigar band on top). Even though it's free, I want people to go "OOHH" when they see my soap and adore it even more when they use it!! I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want the people to whom I give my soap to be as passionate about the soap as I am, and feel like they've INDEED been given a little slice of luxury!
That said, I found out the hard way that my pretty packaging of 4 week-old bars looked sloppy and fell off my 8 week-old bars! I can even tell a bit of difference between  6 and 8 week-old bars...I now wait a full 8 weeks to package my soap, but I do realize this is a perk of not selling. 
I find it offensive that anyone actually accepting money for their soap wouldn't have enough pride in their product to make sure they were selling the best possible product to their customers! And by this comment, I DON'T mean established soapers doing pre-sells to their regular clients...these folks have obviously built up a clientele based on a great product that people already want!
On the opposite side, I also take offense at soapmakers selling soap so old it retains none of the "scent" described...just has that "old soap" smell...does anyone know what I mean? This is the smell that initially put me off handmade soap years ago...an odd unpleasant smell. I just received a couple soaps this week that I bought online from a soapmaker that I was really excited about. What a disappointment! Both soaps smelled exactly the same..."old soap"...but I'll give them another try because I love the concept of the company and the soap was actually pretty good despite the smell


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## AlchemyandAshes

Seifenblasen said:
			
		

> but today a "fellow soaper" told me at a craft show I participated in that she went home LAST NIGHT to make more soap to sell TODAY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last time I checked, between "last night" and "today", that's less than 48 hours.  Actually, less than 24 hours.
Click to expand...


This is the exact comment from this soaper that prompted this post...and when I asked if she did CP and the answer was "yes", I was like "What?!?" :Kitten Love: I can't even unmold some of my soaps in that short of a time period, and I certainly wouldn't have been selling it.

We all have different ethical opinions on this topic. This soaper may well be a nice person with an established customer base and good intentions. But her idea of a quality soap and mine differ. I'm not blasting her name or company on here and I would never disparage another soaper in front of a customer, but I did have customers come from her booth to mine, ask the differences, and purchase from me. I've had quite a few people ask how long my bars would last, as they had bought handmade soap before and it was too soft and didn't last. Besides formulation, I believe the short cure times contribute to this problem. This type of reputation of handmade soap, as well as the fear (myths) that people still have about lye soap, effect all of us that make soap, especially those of us that sell.

This topic wasn't meant to be a lynching of "Do Not Use Until" soapers...I see this practice more and more, and less than 24 hour soap was the most extreme example of it that I've seen. I was curious how accepted this practice is to most soapers. It was one of those "Is it just me?" kind of things...  :? 

As for me, I will be sticking with my 6 week cure.


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## Hausfrau007

Hey, do I have to add a few more weeks of cure for an ungelled milk soap? Like, 8 to 10 weeks? What do you think?


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## AlchemyandAshes

I do think ungelled soaps of any kind need a longer cure. I had one batch (no milk) that I gelled half, and ungelled half...and after 4 weeks, the ungelled batch was still able to be rolled into balls  :x The gelled version of the same batch was cut after 24 hours and was as hard as "normal" after 4 weeks. I think 8 weeks for an ungelled milk batch sounds about right.


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## Hausfrau007

Thank goodness. I was afraid you'd say six months again, like with my castile soap.


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## AlchemyandAshes

Hausfrau007 said:
			
		

> Thank goodness. I was afraid you'd say six months again, like with my castile soap.


If you only knew how impatient I am in "real life", you would see the irony in this   
I'm not the "Soap Police - Proper Curing Division" (maybe I will advocate for this once I'm crowned Queen)...but in my opinion, 4 weeks is a general cure time for most soap. 6 weeks is better. Castille is really the only soap that NEEDS a really long cure to be a quality soap. All soap can benefit from a longer cure...the only thing that usually suffers over a longer cure period is scent and color, as both can fade...but usually after a year and with proper storage, even longer.


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## Hausfrau007

You know what batch seems to be coming along really well? The one I made two weeks ago with GM and probably 40% lard. Seems nice and hard already. I just tried a piece (yum!!), and it foamed up really nice although the PH was still a little high. But so far this one might be one for the books.


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## Maythorn

I have even gone to 42% lard and no gell done.  I think it can be higher than palm according to Soapcalc and the good results I got out of those recipes with lard at that %.  I just hope the bars never smell like lard.  So far that's not come up.


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## Hazel

Hausfrau007 said:
			
		

> You know what batch seems to be coming along really well? The one I made two weeks ago with GM and probably 40% lard. Seems nice and hard already. I just tried a piece (yum!!), and it foamed up really nice although the PH was still a little high. But so far this one might be one for the books.



I've always liked to cure ungelled soaps at least 6 weeks. Confession time! I just had to try a teeny bit of the ungelled Black Friday soap (13 days old). I was wondering how much the salt I added might have suppressed the lather. I couldn't believe the difference. It was much harder than usual for an ungelled soap and the lather was super bubbly. It wasn't even drying considering it hasn't even been 2 weeks since I made it. I'm very pleased.


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## Hausfrau007

Yeah, I take scraps, moosh them into wads and try them every so often while the batch cures. For me, it's the only anecdotal way to learn.


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## Hausfrau007

Shoot, the post above got away from me ... I meant to say, for me it's the only anecdotal way to learn how my soaps behave during cure.


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## AlchemyandAshes

I think we ALL test our OWN soaps right out of the mold...I know I do. I only questioned the practice of SELLING it right out of the mold  :wink: 
I like to test it right out of the mold, then 2 weeks, 4 weeks, and 6 weeks. Some soaps I can see a big difference, some only a slight difference.
This is what sits next to my kitchen sink for "lab testing"  :wink: :
[attachment=0:1vqust0l]image.jpg[/attachment:1vqust0l]


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## chicklet

I have 3 different "lab specimens" by my kitchen sink and 8 by my bathroom sink!


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## Lindy

I agree that right out of the mould is craziness.  Even HP right out of the mould is a bit soon.


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## 2lilboots

I have 3 test specimens at my kitchen sink, 2 in the downstairs bathroom and 4 in the upstairs bathroom.  My bf just shakes his head at this.


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## Seifenblasen

Alchemy&Ashes, I worked in many labs and have not seen one as classy as yours!       You seem to have a knack for display.

I guess I am pretty tame, with only 5 bars (1 actually in the shower, the other 4 sitting on a shelf) in the bathroom and that's it.


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## Hausfrau007

Good lord, I only have two test batches!!


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