# Anyone else have this issue when using Stephenson melt and pour base?



## Pinky89 (May 19, 2021)

So I decided to switch to Stephenson’s melt and pour base because I think their base lathers way better than the Crafter’s choice base that I was using. Well every time I use Stephenson’s base, when it’s time to cut the bars, I notice they are not as hard as the Crafters choice bars would be. At first I thought I was cutting too soon but this time I let the loaf sit until the next day before I cut it. I also made sure not to add too much fragrance. I really love the lather these bars produce but I just don’t get why the bars aren’t coming out hard. Any suggestions???


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## Carly B (May 19, 2021)

I would guess, and it's just a guess, that whatever is allowing the soap to lather the way you like could also be a factor in the hardness.  When I do M&P these days, Stephenson's is not my first choice for M&P, I prefer SFIC because of the ingredients.


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## Pinky89 (May 19, 2021)

Carly B said:


> I would guess, and it's just a guess, that whatever is allowing the soap to lather the way you like could also be a factor in the hardness.  When I do M&P these days, Stephenson's is not my first choice for M&P, I prefer SFIC because of the ingredients.



Hmm I usually use the sls/sled free Stephenson soap. I’m not sure if that’s the reason? I’m thinking to just stick with crafters choice now.


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## Obsidian (May 19, 2021)

The mp base I use is a bit soft too. I really do wish it was a little harder but its a nice base and easy to work with.
I haven't tried stephensons yet, suppose I should.


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## KimW (May 19, 2021)

I've always accepted that the M&P base I make will always yield a soft bar.  I wonder what could be added to make such a bar harder?


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## ResolvableOwl (May 19, 2021)

KimW said:


> I've always accepted that the M&P base I make will always yield a soft bar.  I wonder what could be added to make such a bar harder?


A ton of stearic and lauric acid (or the respective oils, i. e. soy wax and coconut). In my experience, anything unsaturated, and be it only the intermediate oleic acid content of lard, cocoa, shea or palm oil, lowers the hardness to a consistency between chewing gum and butter, and the soap to dissolve quickly.
What a bummer that hardened M&P soaps are either not bubbly at all, or stripping (you can't have much superfat), or both. But I can't really put a lot of soft oils in there to tune the “conditioning number” into agreeable regions. Time to embrace the limits of homemade DIY soap, I guess


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## Pinky89 (May 19, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> A ton of stearic and lauric acid (or the respective oils, i. e. soy wax and coconut). In my experience, anything unsaturated, and be it only the intermediate oleic acid content of lard, cocoa, shea or palm oil, lowers the hardness to a consistency between chewing gum and butter, and the soap to dissolve quickly.
> What a bummer that hardened M&P soaps are either not bubbly at all, or stripping (you can't have much superfat), or both. But I can't really put a lot of soft oils in there to tune the “conditioning number” into agreeable regions. Time to embrace the limits of homemade DIY soap, I guess



When I buy soap from soap makers who use Stephenson’s soap base, the bars are hard. I’m wondering if they add something to it.


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## ResolvableOwl (May 19, 2021)

They know very well how much of each ingredient they can/must add to achieve this hardness. They have put a lot of lab work into fine-tuning between saturated fats, polyols, water, and possibly syndets, to free up a few % space for soft oils. In the end you pay for their work to perfect their proprietary formulation; except when you are willing/able to put similar efforts into optimising your own recipe, or live with soft, smeary, and not very long-living soaps.


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## glendam (May 19, 2021)

I have noticed that too, it felt rubbery to me.  I only buy it for embeds so I switched to the Crafter's choice one.


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## Pinky89 (May 19, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> They know very well how much of each ingredient they can/must add to achieve this hardness. They have put a lot of lab work into fine-tuning between saturated fats, polyols, water, and possibly syndets, to free up a few % space for soft oils. In the end you pay for their work to perfect their proprietary formulation; except when you are willing/able to put similar efforts into optimising your own recipe, or live with soft, smeary, and not very long-living soaps.



Hmm tbh I doubt a lot of them that I purchase from do all of that lol

I’m going to try adding some stearic acid to the base


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## ResolvableOwl (May 20, 2021)

That's an idea, but pure stearic acid for one has a quite high melting point (69°C), and won't dissolve as is (but probably settle/stay murky like excess superfat in liquid soap). Better neutralise it (add the equivalent amount of NaOH). Sodium stearate works wonders in making M&P soap more solid, that's why commercial manufacturers add it in large amounts – including Stephensons (that's why I'm a bit puzzled that its firmness still isn't convincing).


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## academygirl (May 25, 2021)

So, I've been using Stephenson's almost exclusively (although my first choice is SFIC) and so far, I have never had this issue (thank God). Sorry to hear you're having trouble but hoping you can find a solution ASAP.


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## Pinky89 (May 26, 2021)

academygirl said:


> So, I've been using Stephenson's almost exclusively (although my first choice is SFIC) and so far, I have never had this issue (thank God). Sorry to hear you're having trouble but hoping you can find a solution ASAP.


Hmm that’s really interesting. I’m disappointed this base isn’t working out for me


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## academygirl (May 26, 2021)

Pinky89 said:


> Hmm that’s really interesting. I’m disappointed this base isn’t working out for me


The only issue I have actually had with Stephenson's is that the first time I purchased the HCV crystal clear, it came crystal clear colored. The second time I purchased this same exact soap from the same vendor, it wasn't crystal clear- it was a medium urine-colored block. The representative tried her best to convince me that it was all in my head.

I purchased SFICs' crystal clear from Brambleberry.com and it came in a very dark urine-colored block that seemed to have been poured piping hot into a plastic bag. *Luckily*, I live a few miles from SFIC and they gave me a few samples to take home when I discovered their warehouse, by accident. I can verify that one of the samples SFIC gave me was the crystal clear and it was indeed CRYSTAL clear-colored and of high quality. I don't know what Brambleberry did but what they gave me was NOT the same as what SFIC themselves gave me.

Long story short, it may not be anything you're doing. Could also just be something's fishy about the soap base.


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## Pinky89 (May 28, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> That's an idea, but pure stearic acid for one has a quite high melting point (69°C), and won't dissolve as is (but probably settle/stay murky like excess superfat in liquid soap). Better neutralise it (add the equivalent amount of NaOH). Sodium stearate works wonders in making M&P soap more solid, that's why commercial manufacturers add it in large amounts – including Stephensons (that's why I'm a bit puzzled that its firmness still isn't convincing).



What about palm kernel flakes? I heard it hardens cp soaps but what about mp soaps?


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## ResolvableOwl (May 29, 2021)

Yes, but you'll have to use lye to saponify them first (make a CP or HP soap from it), and most probably add extra solvent (glycerol, sorbitol etc.) to keep it meltable.

However, I expect that you need a whole lot of it to notice any difference at all. M&P bases are traditionally high in lauric oils anyway (the “sodium laurate” in the data sheet might already be palm-kernel derived). Additions below massive double-digit percentages won't probably change much, except disturb the recipe fine-tuning of the manufacturer.


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