# Can Sodiium Citrate be used in making liquid soap?



## ronrho56 (Mar 24, 2015)

Just curious if sodium citrate can be used as a chelating agent when making liquid soap?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 24, 2015)

I think it can.  Well, I hope it can as I used some in my batch.  That said, my batch didn't go overly well at the start.........

..Aha!  Here, on page two, IrishLass helps us out  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52650&page=2


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## Dorymae (Mar 24, 2015)

I imagine so but remember you will up the superfat which if too high can lead to oil floating on your soap.  As I understand it you never want over 3% SF in liquid soap, and I believe (if I remember correctly) that 3% is pushing it.


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## kchaystack (Mar 24, 2015)

Yes, and DeeAnna tells you how to use citric acid to make it in your soap here:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=491693&postcount=44


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## DeeAnna (Mar 24, 2015)

Yes, sodium citrate can be added to liquid soap -- you can add it directly to the water when you make up your lye solution. The typical dosage for hard-water treatment would be about 1.3% sodium citrate based on the oil weight, but the dose could go as high as about 4% sodium citrate. This range of dosages for sodium citrate is equivalent to adding citric acid from 1% to 3% based on oil weight.

Alternatively, you could do what the others are suggesting and just add citric acid to your soap recipe and let it react with the KOH -- you'll want to add extra KOH to compensate for this chemical reaction. By reacting with KOH, you'd be making potassium citrate instead of sodium citrate, but I'm not certain that makes much difference in the overall performance of this additive.

***

If dosage rate for citric acid is 1% by weight of oils, the equivalent dosage for sodium citrate is 1.3%
If dosage rate for citric acid is 1% by weight of oils, the equivalent dosage for potassium citrate is 1.6%

***

Typical dosage: 10 g citric acid for every 1,000 g oils (1% ppo). Range: 0.1% to 3%. edit: The low end of this range will protect against rancidity (aka DOS); the mid to upper end is to help with hard water scum as well as rancidity.

Citric acid and Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) make Sodium citrate in soap
10 g citric acid neutralizes 6.24 g NaOH, so add an extra 6.24 g of NaOH for every 10 grams of citric added to the recipe.

Citric acid and Potassium hydroxide (KOH) make Potassium citrate in soap
10 g citric acid neutralizes 8.42 g KOH, so add an extra 8.42 g of KOH for every 10 grams of citric added to the recipe.

Stir the citric acid into the water you will use to make your lye solution. Add the lye to the water and proceed with your recipe as usual.


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## ronrho56 (Mar 24, 2015)

Thank you so much. I knew about adding the citric acid and compensating with the extra lye, and also about adding the vinegar with extra lye, but did not remember seeing if the sodium citrate could be used when making liquid soap.
I appreciate all of the information, and the willingness to help!!


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## Saponista (Mar 25, 2015)

DeeAnna you're a star. I was wondering how to work this out the other day and you have done it for me. Thank you.


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## dingi (Feb 21, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Yes, sodium citrate can be added to liquid soap -- you can add it directly to the water when you make up your lye solution. The typical dosage for hard-water treatment would be about 1.3% sodium citrate based on the oil weight, but the dose could go as high as about 4% sodium citrate. This range of dosages for sodium citrate is equivalent to adding citric acid from 1% to 3% based on oil weight.
> 
> Alternatively, you could do what the others are suggesting and just add citric acid to your soap recipe and let it react with the KOH -- you'll want to add extra KOH to compensate for this chemical reaction. By reacting with KOH, you'd be making potassium citrate instead of sodium citrate, but I'm not certain that makes much difference in the overall performance of this additive.
> 
> ...



Our water is also very hard. Hence I would also add citric acid the way you explained and add extra lye to compensate. 
 Please tell me, if citric acid is added, the resultant  liquid soap would be clear or milky ? Because the first time I make LS (glycerin method) I expect it to be a clear soap. Some people suggest using borax when diluting the paste that would enhance lather well in hard water also.


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## green soap (Feb 22, 2016)

Using the lye excess (not glycerine) method, also knows as the Failor method; I get milky liquid soap neutralizing with Citric acid, and clear soap when using Borax.  YMMV as the glycerin method is a lot more forgiving from what I understand.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2016)

Crossposted from http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=580367, post 32 --

I have only used tetrasodium EDTA when making my bar and liquid soaps. I only have a small bit of personal experience with using citrate.

General threads on citric acid use in soap:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53035
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53330

I have added some homemade citrate solution (made per Galaxy's method, below) to diluted LS, and I can't say that was a success. The citrate turned the diluted soap milky white and "broke" the soap. Commercial citrate may give different results, because citrate can have several chemical forms, and it's likely that homemade citrate is slightly different than commercial.

My thought is homemade citrate may work better if added to the soap batter when making LS paste or bar soap. Here's more discussion on this: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showt...t=56643&page=2

Galaxy's thread on making citrate at home from baking soda and citric acid: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=55723


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## galaxyMLP (Feb 22, 2016)

I used my sodium citrate in diluted liquid soap once.

It acts as a thickener so use it at 1-2% of your soap paste and not  1-2% of your total bulk diluted soap. It works wayyy better than using salt as a thickener because you don't get that lather reduction. 

For example. Let's say you made 100 g of soap paste and you diluted it with 400 g of water. Now you have 500 g of liquid soap. You would add sodium citrate at 1-2% of 100 g and not 1-2% of 500 g. That means you should use between 1 and 2 grams of sodium citrate to thicken and reduce soap scum. If you want it thicker, just be sure to use more sodium citrate. I would not go over 1-2 % of your bulk solution or you may start to see that curdling look in you LS. 

I have only tried my home made sodium citrate that I brought to a pH of 9 in solution (with water) by adding baking soda. 

Some tips: 

Don't add it as a salt, add it as a solution. In the case above, I would probably dilute the soap paste with 350 g of water and reserve 50 g of water to mix with your sodium citrate. Add it slowly and stir after each addition. 

Always dilute liquid soap with distilled water.


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## dingi (Feb 22, 2016)

Thanks green soap, DeeAnna and GalaxyMLP for sharing your experiences and detailed and very nice answers.


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## dingi (Feb 24, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Yes, sodium citrate can be added to liquid soap -- you can add it directly to the water when you make up your lye solution. The typical dosage for hard-water treatment would be about 1.3% sodium citrate based on the oil weight, but the dose could go as high as about 4% sodium citrate. This range of dosages for sodium citrate is equivalent to adding citric acid from 1% to 3% based on oil weight.
> 
> Alternatively, you could do what the others are suggesting and just add citric acid to your soap recipe and let it react with the KOH -- you'll want to add extra KOH to compensate for this chemical reaction. By reacting with KOH, you'd be making potassium citrate instead of sodium citrate, but I'm not certain that makes much difference in the overall performance of this additive.
> 
> ...



I would like to know the method to use citric acid  in  LS Glycerin method. Because our water is very hard, can  I add citric acid  10 grams dissolved in 20 grams water and then add the glycerin to it after subtracting 20 grams of actual glycerin weight? 
Many people talk only about sodium citrate for hard water issue. Will the potassium citrate formed by this chemical reaction when KOH is added, as such help overcome hard water issue to some extent?


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## DeeAnna (Feb 24, 2016)

I have not used citric acid in liquid soap to make citrate, so I do not have an opinion on the method you want to use. 

If I did want to use citric acid to make citrate, this is how I would do it -- I would weigh enough water to equal to the KOH weight. I would first dissolve the citric acid in that water, then I would add the KOH and stir until the KOH is dissolved. I would add glycerin equal to 2 times the KOH weight to the lye mixture. All of this is at room temperature -- no heating required. I would use that mixture to make the soap. 

It is the citrate ion that is the chelator. You can use either KOH or NaOH to make citrate, so it makes no difference which lye you use.


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## dingi (Feb 24, 2016)

Thanks DeeAnna for explaining  your method of using citric acid with water and Glycerin and  it is nice to learn that KOH or NaOH - citrate,  makes no difference


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## Seawolfe (Feb 24, 2016)

dingi said:


> I would like to know the method to use citric acid  in  LS Glycerin method. Because our water is very hard, can  I add citric acid  10 grams dissolved in 20 grams water and then add the glycerin to it after subtracting 20 grams of actual glycerin weight?
> Many people talk only about sodium citrate for hard water issue. Will the potassium citrate formed by this chemical reaction when KOH is added, as such help overcome hard water issue to some extent?



Yes that worked for me - I asked a similar question here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58591

That LS turned out nice and clear, just make sure you calculate how much extra lye you will need to compensate


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## dingi (Feb 24, 2016)

Seawolfe said:


> Yes that worked for me - I asked a similar question here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58591
> 
> That LS turned out nice and clear, just make sure you calculate how much extra lye you will need to compensate



Thanks SeaWolfe. In the thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58591 - you have also mentioned using 1.75 TBS sugar. That means adding both citric acid and sugar help for good lather in hard water?
 Can sugar be used in making  Liquid soap? 
Because some people somewhere on the internet say that sugar can only be used in making bar soap (may be they are wrong), just wanted to confirm from you again if sugar can be used in LS. 
As DeeAnna has pointed out that typical dosage: 10 g citric acid for every 1,000 g oils. For every 10 g of citric acid one must add extra KOH of 8.42 g.  
How much sugar can be added to 1000 g oils recipe? 
Similarly if we add sugar, do we need to add another extra KOH lye and if so, how many grams? please tell me


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## Susie (Feb 25, 2016)

Yes, sugar can be added to liquid or bar soap recipes.  Hold out about 20-25 g of water and make it hot water to mix your sugar in (I use 5-10 g sugar/500 g oil), then add the sugar mixture to the oils.  Sugar is not an acid, so it does not affect how much NaOH or KOH you use.  It makes your lather more bubbly.  It does not fix hard water, however.


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## dingi (Feb 25, 2016)

Susie said:


> Yes, sugar can be added to liquid or bar soap recipes.  Hold out about 20-25 g of water and make it hot water to mix your sugar in (I use 5-10 g sugar/500 g oil), then add the sugar mixture to the oils.  Sugar is not an acid, so it does not affect how much NaOH or KOH you use.  It makes your lather more bubbly.  It does not fix hard water, however.


Thanks susie. Adding the sugar mixture to oils means, you mean to say not to add sugar in the water/ glycerin for lye mixture and instead directly add the sugar solution  of 20 -25 g  to the oils? I was thinking that sugar must be mixed in the water/glycerin meant for lye solution before lye is added and then add that whole mixture to oils. Please clear up my ambiguity. 
For hard water issue, citric acid is suggested. Hence, can one use both sugar and citric acid mixed in the lye solution together to take care of  bubbles as well as hard water issue?


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## Susie (Feb 25, 2016)

There is no reason not to use citric acid or sodium citrate and sugar in the same batch.  

Yes, you add the sugar and water to the oils.  If you add it to the lye/water, it gets really hot and can caramelize the sugar, leading to brown soap.  All of the oils and lye/water and sugar/water are going to get mixed together, anyway, you just minimize your chances of caramelizing the sugar by adding it to the oils.


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## dingi (Feb 25, 2016)

Susie said:


> There is no reason not to use citric acid or sodium citrate and sugar in the same batch.
> 
> Yes, you add the sugar and water to the oils.  If you add it to the lye/water, it gets really hot and can caramelize the sugar, leading to brown soap.  All of the oils and lye/water and sugar/water are going to get mixed together, anyway, you just minimize your chances of caramelizing the sugar by adding it to the oils.



Thanks Susie. That's fine explanation and you have certainly cleared up the ambiguity, Thanks once again


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## cmzaha (Feb 28, 2016)

I do like Susie, and also add my dissolved citric acid to my oils. I make up a gallon or so of 50/50 citric acid solution. For LS I just add in the extra KOH needed to make it sodium citrate. Multiply your dry required weight of citric acid by 0.824 for the amount of extra KOH. FYI, if you use the full glycerin method do not try to dissolve your CA in glycerin, it simply, will not properly dissolve. Use water


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## dingi (Feb 29, 2016)

*extra liquiid to compensate for sodium citrate?*

Can someone please tell me if all the calculations are correct?
 Few days beforeI got the KOH.  Later I confirmed its purity from the  supplier. They say it is 87 % or 88 % purtiy. So, as per the recipe  posted by Irishlass that has 65% OO, 25% CO and 10% Castor oil, I  entered that in SoapCalc for 500 grams oils with Lye concentration as 25  % without ticking 90% checkbox and I got the KOH weight as 99.79 grams  at 3% superfat. So I did the math as mentioned in this forum and hence  99.79 / 88 x 100 = 113.39 grams (for 88% purity) is the needed KOH  finally.
Water or Glycerin needed must be 113.79 x 3 = 340 grams.
Now  I have to take into the issue of hard water and hence I have  decided to add citric acid 5 grams to the 1 part water before adding lye  and then to add 2 part glycerin. 
To compensate for this reaction, I have to add 4.21 grams of additional  KOH ( because DeeAnna has mentioned that 10 grams of citric acid  will  neutralize 8.42 grams of  KOH). Here I got stuck up regarding the total  liquid needed. Do we need to add additional water or glycerin ?
 as 4.21 x 3 = 12.63 grams because the total KOH now has become 117.6 grams (113.39 + 4.21 grams) ?
 In other words, do we need 117.6 x 3 =  352.8 grams of liquid instead of earlier 340grams ? :smile:


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## topofmurrayhill (Feb 29, 2016)

dingi said:


> as 4.21 x 3 = 12.63 grams because the total KOH now has become 117.6 grams (113.39 + 4.21 grams) ?
> In other words, do we need 117.6 x 3 =  352.8 grams of liquid instead of earlier 340grams ? :smile:



If you want to keep your lye at the intended concentration, then yes. Will it make a difference? Probably not.


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## dingi (Feb 29, 2016)

Thanks so much topofmurrayhill for your explanation. 
 I am awaiting to know opinions  and experiences from DeeAnna, Susie and IrishLass' experience on the same and also regarding the calculation at 88 % purity... As I am new,  I am studying extensively in this forum on the LS topics and threads and wanna be clear before start making LS practically.


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## Susie (Feb 29, 2016)

I don't have hard water, and I am horrible in math.  You need to wait for someone who can talk to you about both.  But you do need to stick to the 1:3 KOH/water (or glycerin) ratio for easier to work paste, as TOMH said.


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## dingi (Feb 29, 2016)

Thanks Susie.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 29, 2016)

Dingi -- I agree with your numbers -- they look correct to me.

"...113.39 grams (for 88% purity) is the needed KOH...
"...citric acid 5 grams...
"...4.21 grams of additional KOH..."

You also asked: "...Here I got stuck up regarding the total liquid needed. Do we need to add additional water or glycerin ?..."

My preference -- Yes, I add liquid equal to 3 X (total KOH weight). But if you do not add the extra water-glycerin, your soap will also be fine. The total weight of the water phase (the weight of water + glycerin) is flexible. Some soapers use less water phase; others use more. 

In my experience, the water phase can range from (2 X total KOH) to (3 X total KOH) or even a little bit more. Anything in that range will work. Less water phase (2 X) will make the soap paste extra firm and harder to stir, so I usually go with (3 X) to get a softer soap paste.

If you use an even larger water phase of (4 X total KOH) or more, you may find the soap will keep separating and not come to trace. That much water phase is too much. 

My only caution regardless of what you do -- 

The water in which you dissolve the KOH should always be equal to or greater than the total KOH weight, regardless of what your total water phase weight is. If you do not do this, you might run into trouble with getting all of the KOH to dissolve easily.


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## dingi (Feb 29, 2016)

Thanks DeeAnna for precise answer!!!  Glad that my calculations are correct. That's nice to learn, exactly what I needed about KOH and water/glycerin ratio when extra lye is added to compensate when citrate is formed.


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