# Had an interesting experience at Lush today...



## AshleyR (Jun 4, 2009)

I haven't really gone in Lush much before. The closest store is 4 hours away so I don't get to shop there very often! I do love how a lot of their stuff sounds, but never really bothered to purchase much due to the super high prices.

Anyway, I wandered in there today to sniff a few of the popular scents that people have been asking me to dupe. I learned a lot of things I didn't expect...

One of the sales reps was mumbling to her co-worker that she couldn't stand talking to people who had no idea what they were talking about (I guess the customer before me had frustrated her). When I told her I made soap, she immediately struck up a convo with me, because I "knew what I was talking about". Apparently a lot more than SHE knew what SHE was talking about. LOL. The girl didn't know what lye was! I noticed most (if not all?) of the soaps have SLS in them, and lanolin too! I asked her if she found that any customers objected to those ingredients in their "all natural soap" and she said no. Which brought me to asking her whether or not anyone questions the lye in the soap, and she looked at me with the most confused look and changed the subject. I thought it was funny! I really don't think she had any idea what lye was!

Anyway, Lush stuff is NOT all natural. One of the workers told me that they only use essential oils in their products. I said "Really? Wow, you get some really awesome scents using just EO's.... I thought some of them had to be fragranced!" and the lye-clueless girl piped in and said "Oh, we do use some fragrances, but we use the word "perfume" on our ingredient lists for everything scented with EO's and/or FO's, so there's no questions."

Hah! I was really amused with the conversation we had. Found out a lot of interesting things, and I caught the sales rep giving out misinformation a couple of times.

Oh - one of the sales reps also told me that even though there is SLS in almost everything "it is actually naturally derived, so it's not that bad." SLS is naturally derived? I'm no chemist, so maybe I'm missing something, but when I search up SLS it doesn't sound natural to me!

Anyway, just thought this was an interesting visit/conversation and had to share!


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2009)

I had an almost identical conversation at LUSH, however I was told that of you look on the UK Lush site, there are videos (or maybe on youtube) that show how Lush products are made.  One thing I've never notice is LUSH in any way implying they are all natural.

I do think they use a combo of cp and mp products.  At one point someone said they were all mp, but i doubt it because I can almost duplicate the texture of most of their soaps by adding 1 tbs sls to my cp soaps


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2009)

Lol that's funny Ashley , what would the difference be between "bad and not so bad".hmmm Poor clueless thang. Not her fault if they don't train people.

Kitn


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## ChrissyB (Jun 4, 2009)

SLS is a natural derivative of coconut oil.


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## AshleyR (Jun 4, 2009)

phillysoaps said:
			
		

> One thing I've never notice is LUSH in any way implying they are all natural.



I guess I just assumed they were. I have heard a lot of people (that don't work there) say and give off the impression that their products are all natural, so that's why I assumed I think! But - even the sales rep started off telling me "we only use essential oils" and then the other said they do use SOME fragrances, but call everything "perfume". 

I dunno! I just didn't like it!


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## AshleyR (Jun 4, 2009)

ChrissyB said:
			
		

> SLS is a natural derivative of coconut oil.



Thanks Chrissy! I've never used it and only did a couple of quick searches on it that told me it was a "detergent" and "surfactant".


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## wonderland (Jun 4, 2009)

i contacted lush via email a while back asking if their soap was cp and was told they use m&p noodles as their soap base.


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## ChrissyB (Jun 4, 2009)

Ash I wasn't trying to say that you had the wrong opinion of them, I knew that their soap was MP, and apparently people have had problems with their soaps going mouldy?
And just because sls can be made from coconut oil doesn't mean it's any less of a bad ingredient, I still don't like it.


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## xraygrl (Jun 4, 2009)

Having worked at a Lush store and actually having used their stuff, I would have to say their soap is MP. I worked there for about 6 months...and this was after I had already been making soaps etc for several years. 

The way they "teach" their employess about the products is a JOKE. Basically they teach them to spout off about a couple of "key ingredients" (which BTW are ususally way down on the list of ingred) in each product blah, blah. That's it. No REAL product knowledge training, they just want them to know what they want them to tell people and that's it. And they want their employees to be VERY AGGRESSIVE sales people, which has always been a turn off for me as a sales person and a customer. 

Their big thing is "fresh handmade" . I really question their labeling etc as they don't list any kind of preservative on any of their lotions or creams. Don't get me wrong, I think they have some decent stuff, I just dont think they are completely on the level with their labeling practices.


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## topcat (Jun 4, 2009)

Just my two cents worth.....the Lush store near me has BIG signs in their store and on the windows saying "all natural" and "as natural as skincare gets".  Love some of the scents they have come up with.  I go in there just to sniff!  Imho their soap is about the same quality as supermarket brands with a few added lovely extras.  It was Lush soap which inspired me to start making MP.  Now I am onto CP and the sky is the limit   

Tanya


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## artisan soaps (Jun 4, 2009)

..


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## kittywings (Jun 4, 2009)

I always thought lush was supposed to be all natural.  I had never seen it until visiting Victoria B.C. on a cruise ship I was working on.  One of the other singers bought some stuff from there and I remember him saying that we had to use it soon or else it would go bad because they didn't use preservatives.  Recently, when I started making my own stuff I researched their ingredients and was VERY surprised![/i]


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## SimplyE (Jun 4, 2009)

Never been there.  Never heard of Lush until here.  Apparently, I don't get out much.  (I live in BFE).

My only comment is:

Kittywings, THAT is an amazing AVATAR!  I LOVE your cat!!!!


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2009)

*safe?*

Lush's Web site lists some of their ingredients as "safe synthetics" to explain what isn't considered perfectly natural.

This is from their Web site..:

[_b]
The two preservatives we do use (*methylparaben and propylparaben*) are the safest, mildest ones we can find, and have been used in cosmetics and skin care for 60 years. Using more, or stronger, synthetics would mean compromising the benefits to your skin. We'd be more profitable if we preserved a product to last three years and warehoused the goods, but we think you deserve better.

If you look at a non-LUSH product and it doesn’t have a label showing when it was made, it could be anything up to 3 years old. We only sell our preserved products for up to 4 months after they’re made, and their total shelf life is 14 months. .[/b]_


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## Jeremy (Jun 4, 2009)

It`s either man made or nature made, either way it`s man processed.


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## LJA (Jun 5, 2009)

SimplyE said:
			
		

> Never been there.  Never heard of Lush until here.  Apparently, I don't get out much.  (I live in BFE).
> 
> My only comment is:
> 
> Kittywings, THAT is an amazing AVATAR!  I LOVE your cat!!!!



How much do I love that you used the "term" BFE?!  lol.


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## DelightSociety (Jun 5, 2009)

ChrissyB said:
			
		

> SLS is a natural derivative of coconut oil.



I thought SLSa was a natural product and SLS was the synthetic version?

Does that mean SLS is safe and I'm not wasting my money buying the SLSa?


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## topcat (Jun 5, 2009)

DelightSociety said:
			
		

> ChrissyB said:
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Quoted from wikipedia:-  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dodecyl_sulfate

"Sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) is synthesized by reacting lauryl alcohol with sulphuric acid to produce hydrogen lauryl sulfate which is then neutralized through the addition of sodium carbonate[6]. Lauryl alcohol is in turn usually derived from either coconut or palm kernel oil by esterification of their fatty acids followed by reduction of the acid group to an alcohol.

SLS can be converted by ethoxylation to sodium laureth sulfate (sodium lauryl ether sulfate; SLES), which is less harsh on the skin due to its polarity.[7]"

So it is a synthesized derivative....combined with sulphuric acid to create SLS and then can be converted to SLES.

Tanya


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## DelightSociety (Jun 5, 2009)

topcat said:
			
		

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Whoa! Slow down egg head. What did you write? Talk to me like I'm a Lush customer


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## kittywings (Jun 5, 2009)

SimplyE said:
			
		

> Never been there.  Never heard of Lush until here.  Apparently, I don't get out much.  (I live in BFE).
> 
> My only comment is:
> 
> Kittywings, THAT is an amazing AVATAR!  I LOVE your cat!!!!



LOL!  I wish I could claim credit for the picture, but I found it somewhere and loved the fat cat (I do have 3 of my own, but they're not as funny as that one)... but I WOULD like to make sure that people know that is NOT my bathroom... EEW!  Sorry, if anyone's bathroom here looks like that... I don't want to offend).  I CAN claim these pics though: (sorry to hijack the thread)


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## LJA (Jun 5, 2009)

DelightSociety said:
			
		

> topcat said:
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I'm literally crying from laughing right now...


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## carebear (Jun 5, 2009)

OK - for the lushies.

Nneither SLS nor SLSa are "natural" as far as I am willing to use that word.  Neither grows in the ground nor can be plucked from a plant.

SLS (and then SLSa) can be "derived from nature" because they are made from coconut oil.  Course they've been clearly impacted by humans to convert them, so that term is bull cookies too.

BTW: petroleum is natural (it's the remains of decayed dinos, right?) so IMO using that term tells no one anything...


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## IrishLass (Jun 5, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> OK - for the lushies.
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> Nneither SLS nor SLSa are "natural" as far as I am willing to use that word.  Neither grows in the ground nor can be plucked from a plant.
> 
> ...



Well said, Carebear!  I agree wholeheartedly  

To me, the whole idea of labeling an ingredient as 'natural' just because it was 'derived from nature' is very misleading. When one follows that kind of logic through to the end, then _everything_ and _anything_ can be termed as 'natural' because _all _ of our ingredients are 'derived from nature' (where esle but nature do base ingredients come from anyway?). 

Using 'Natural' on my label is a road that I just choose not to go down because everything we use in soap has been processed to some extent before we even get our hands on it. And then we process it _even further _by using either the Cold Process or Hot Process methods of soapmaking.   

I think the most honest I could probably ever be with the use of the word 'Natural' on my label would be to first figure out how many degrees of processing away from its natural state my product had go through before its final result, and then label it something like this: "30% Away From Being Totally Natural!'  :wink:  

That's way too much work for me to even begin to try to figure out, and it sounds silly to my ears anyway so I'm not even going to bother. Plus, it would take up too much room on my labels.   

IrishLass


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## SimplyE (Jun 5, 2009)

LJA said:
			
		

> How much do I love that you used the "term" BFE?!  lol.



 It is true!


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## xraygrl (Jun 5, 2009)

I agree with Carebear. 

Kittywings, love your furbabies!


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## tincanac (Jun 5, 2009)

artisan soaps said:
			
		

> One day Lush will come to NZ and I will get to see/smell all these things I keep reading about - doubt I'd buy anything though, I don't even buy from The Body Shop any more!
> 
> Ditto but in South Africa - have only been to Lush once while I was living in Japan, smelled divine but I was too broke to buy anything - the closest Body Shop to me is 2 hours away - so I started making my own soap, body butter etc - have to admit though, I do love their (Body Shop) Tobacco Flower and White Musk FO (or Home Oil - whatever they call it), that is worth the trip.
> 
> Since you can find out about how to make just about anything here - anyone know how to dupe those scents?


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## Tabitha (Jun 5, 2009)

> BTW: petroleum is natural (it's the remains of decayed dinos, right?) so IMO using that term tells no one anything...



LOL, you sound like me. Someone will say "but XXXX is a natural ingredient" to which I reply "so is cat poop but I don't want it in my lotion  :roll: ."


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## kittywings (Jun 5, 2009)

Tabitha said:
			
		

> > BTW: petroleum is natural (it's the remains of decayed dinos, right?) so IMO using that term tells no one anything...
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> LOL, you sound like me. Someone will say "but XXXX is a natural ingredient" to which I reply "so is cat poop but I don't want it in my lotion  :roll: ."



LOL!  That reminded me of something my husband said when he was questioning some homeopathic remedies I found online, "So?  I could just go online and type up a thing saying that you can get rid of toenail fungus by rubbing a mixture of cat [poo]* and lemon juice on your toes!"  To which I said, "well, people rate if it works for them or not... but I'm sure at least one person would try it!"

*he used another word for "poo"


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## DelightSociety (Jun 5, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> OK - for the lushies.
> 
> Nneither SLS nor SLSa are "natural" as far as I am willing to use that word.  Neither grows in the ground nor can be plucked from a plant.



Very well put.

Well, I'm a big fat fibber. My market poster says 'Natural Handmade Soaps'.

Oh I guess thats true because I only use SLSa in my bubble bars   

I still prefere SLSa. There is such a backlash against SLS I don't think any homemade B & B maker will be able to use it.


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## madpiano (Jun 7, 2009)

for some reason people do think that Lush is all natural, but it's not. 

It is a kind of M&P HP soap. (in the uk - in the US it is just normal M&P). The noodles are made like a HP soap off site and then Lush melts them to make soap. This is what I gathered from their UK Youtube channel. 

But they do increasingly use SLS, especially since they use the palm free base. And their fragrance oils are a mix of FOs and EOs, though with a large amount of EOs. 

I have no idea how they manage to make their soaps smell so strong, but the smell fades quite quickly. I am assuming part of the reson their soaps are so expensive is because of the vast amount of fragrance they use. 

They also use quite a lot of botanicals, so soap going moldy is not really a surprise, especially as it is not CP soap, but essentially M&P. 

Lush was my inspiration when I started making soap. As I also thought they were all natural, I started with CP soap. Now I know better and although I am proud of my soaps, I am still trying to reproduce some of theirs. They are just cool, no matter what they are.


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## eucalypta (Jun 7, 2009)

I've got a Lush store, right "on the corner of the street" 

I've allways loved the Body Shop since they managed to get foot on Dutch soil.
Not only because of their environmental concern, but surely because they had the most awesome fragrances in their MP soap! My children - then little - loved those animal shapes and fruity scents a lot.
Could not walk by their shop without taking a sniff. 
They cut down on that and since I didn't frequent them as much as before.

Then Lush arrived - and they had everything we've been missing and even more! I loved their fair-hair shampoo and "Honey I washed the kids" was one of my favorite scents.
Of course I payed attention to the ingredients (my mother being a farmacist)  - had my doubts here en there about it being all natural.
Since they don't use Palm oil anymore their soaps become more and more MP based and surely less in quality.

They are really expensive! 
I don't sell (yet), but I think what they do could be inspiring. 
BUT: anything they can do, we can do better


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## carebear (Jun 7, 2009)

eucalypta said:
			
		

> Since they don't use Palm oil anymore their soaps become more and more MP based and surely less in quality.


yea, that's one of the "trade-off" conundrums...


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## DelightSociety (Jun 7, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

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I agree, Palm oil makes great soap but who wants to be part of the Orangutan problem. And you have to make your customers happy even if they don't know what makes a good soap (no Palm oil but buckets of sls!!!). At my first CP soap market I had a few people asking for Palm free and being annoyed with me because some of my soaps had Palm oil.

Aparently I was personally murdering the Orangutans by using Palm oil. But not one single person has asked about sls or questioned the use of TD.

I swing all over the place...from agreeing we shouldn't use Palm oil to wondering what the fuss is about (considering I eat fried food and chocolate which contain Palm oil...am I just a big hypocrite anyway).

 :?  :?  :?  :? 

*Off to have a lie down...not thinking clearly*


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## topcat (Jun 7, 2009)

Hey DelightSociety.....I share your dilemma, or should I say, I used to.  I decided, before I even made CP, to avoid palm & palm kernal oils.  I have now sourced an Australian grown sustainable palm oil from Aussie Soap Supplies and use that because my soap is so much firmer to unmould with palm in.  I can use any hard butters too I know, but that pushes the cost of my soap up, up, up.....

Almost any processed & packaged supermarket food contains palm oil from Malaysia.  To avoid it you would have to source your own raw ingredients and make every single thing you eat from scratch.  I do that as much as I can and it is very time consuming.  Handmade soap, even with Malaysian Palm oil, is such a teeny, tiny drop in the ocean compared to food uses.

I also do my bit for the Orangutans - I sponsor a baby orphaned orangutan each year with the AOP adoption project.  Helps me to feel that I am contributing in some small way.  I also plan, like Lomondsoap, to donate a % of my soap sales to the orangutans once I have made back my start up costs.

So off topic I know, sorry....Lush make a *lot* of soap so the fact that they are not using palm now and promoting the plight of the Orangutans is a huge step in the right direction for a high profile retailer.

Tanya


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## gcfanca (Jun 25, 2009)

Thanks for all the information..who else sells that is there anyone in America? ^^


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## oldragbagger (Jun 26, 2009)

What does BFE mean?  I am so acronym challanged.


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## Avalon (Jun 26, 2009)

I can't spend more than 5 minutes in a Lush store before needing to leave because I've become totally overwhelmed by the scents.  YUCK! They have excellent marketing, but that's about it.


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## carebear (Jun 26, 2009)

oh ladies ladies - yea the stores are overwhelming, but one on one (I do mail order) I absolutely ADORE many Lush products.

OMG Karma.  Just OMG.  The scent of soap is a true delight (a bit drying but smells oooooooooohhh!!) and the solid shampoo is TDF
Alkmaar - ummm i you like jasmine hang onto your hats
Sex Bomb bath bombs - everyone should buy them by the dozens
Silky Underwear dusting powder makes me smell yummy from tip to tail

If your only experience with Lush is walking into the store I feel truly sorry for you.


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## gekko62 (Jun 26, 2009)

The palm oil I get is grown in columbia...not all of it is from malaysia.


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## sygrid (Jun 26, 2009)

*Cloak and dagger*

I have no idea how they manage to make their soaps smell so strong, but the smell fades quite quickly. 

I love their scents and I always go in if I am near a store.  Their marketing is brilliant and presentation top drawer.  But their product not so much.  Cant' touch cp.  But...I am very well behaved and if I go in I always buy at least 3 bars to offset my guilt for spying.  If they have a scent that I really like I am going to break it down and copy it or at least get as close as I can.  They dont' bring out new fragrances all that often but I still buy 3 bars if I'm in, always the same ones:  Demon in the Dark, Figs, one that I think has Porridge stamped on it....yummy.  I stick them in my towel shelves and the scent actually stays a long time.  Does anyone here use a fragrance anchor?

Sygrid


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## Avalon (Jun 26, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> If your only experience with Lush is walking into the store I feel truly sorry for you.



I assume this was directed to me.  I'm not sure why you're being snarky. I've not only walked into their stores, I've used their products.  I don't like them.  To each her own.  :wink:


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## madpiano (Jun 26, 2009)

Avalon said:
			
		

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To be honest, I have to agree. Unless you tested Lush Products, you don't really know how much better your own soap is and how much you are NOT missing by never buying any of their products again   

I do love the names for their soaps and some of their FOs are divine


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## carebear (Jun 26, 2009)

Avalon said:
			
		

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I'm sorry I wasn't trying to be snarky.  I just meant what I said.  There was no "snark" intended.  And it wasn't directed at you in particular but at everyone & anyone who's only experience with Lush is in their stores.  I'm glad you got a chance t try their products.  Bummer that you didn't like them.  I do.  To each her own. :wink:

I do agree that my CP soaps are better than theirs in terms of skin caring - I like the scents of theirs.  Not all my products are better than Lush's but some are (like the soap).


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## lifeworksbylaura (Jun 26, 2009)

expired


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## jarvan (Jun 26, 2009)

I had never heard of Lush before here. I don't believe there are any stores in Wisconsin, though could be wrong. I have no problem sampling other soapmakers wares, as I believe that is how I will learn to craft something better for myself. However, oddly enough, I was at Summerfest last night and in the "Arts" tent, there was a local soaper selling for the first year ever. I loved how his product looked and smelled, but when I said I might like to stop back later and pick up a bar (didn't want to purchase it before the Bon Jovi concert and drag it in there with me only to leave it behind), my husband piped up to me a little off to the side and said he didn't want me to buy _his_ stuff because I make my own. Huh? He was rather cute about the whole thing.

Oh, and for the first time, he used my whipped fragrance-free soap in the shower and didn't complain.  :wink:


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## Avalon (Jun 26, 2009)

jarvan said:
			
		

> I had never heard of Lush before here. I don't believe there are any stores in Wisconsin, though could be wrong.



They have one listed in Wauwatosa.  Not sure how far that is from you.


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## carebear (Jun 26, 2009)

jarvan said:
			
		

> Oh, and for the first time, he used my whipped fragrance-free soap in the shower and didn't complain.  :wink:


well there ya go then - the silver lining!!!


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## jarvan (Jun 26, 2009)

I didn't know there was a Lush in Wauwatosa. I will have to look for them, but not sure I want anything from them after hearing how things really are!


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## vivcarm (Jun 26, 2009)

Oh no you should try, I love figs and leaves, and skinny dip. They have a really nice lavender soap too called ooh la la. Like care bare said once you get the product out of the shop you can smell each porduct. I used to work in Lush, but all the ballistic dust reacted with my face, and created red itchy patches, but if you are in there for a browse it's fine!


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## xyxoxy (Jun 27, 2009)

vivcarm said:
			
		

> ... once you get the product out of the shop you can smell each porduct. I used to work in Lush, but all the ballistic dust reacted with my face, and created red itchy patches, but if you are in there for a browse it's fine!



Reminds me of my reaction to Yankee Candles... I can't get within 10 feet of their entrance or I start to get a migrane.


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## carebear (Jun 27, 2009)

xyxoxy said:
			
		

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that's funny, I can't either.  yet I can make candles in my own home.  go figure.

and the woman in the next office works with candles and burns them all day.


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## jarvan (Jun 27, 2009)

> that's funny, I can't either. yet I can make candles in my own home. go figure.
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> and the woman in the next office works with candles and burns them all day.
> _________________



I burn candles and make scented soap, though I don't like walking past Yankee or B&B works. I think the difference is not having multiple scents all crammed up my nose at one time.


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## cdwinsby (Jun 28, 2009)

Tabitha said:
			
		

> [
> LOL, you sound like me. Someone will say "but XXXX is a natural ingredient" to which I reply "so is cat poop but I don't want it in my lotion  :roll: ."



Lol.....way too funny! I'll have to remember that one!

As for Lush stores.....I've tried to look around at their products but almost run from the store screaming each time.  I find the combined scents so overwhelming (actually stinky) that my eyes and nose start to itch and my lungs start to tighten. Most unpleasant.

I think it's all of the open bath bombs etc. It's just too much. I'm afraid I'm not too impressed with the look....at least the last time I was there the soap looked like big lumps of moldy cheese.  Mind you I'm a little stressed when I'm looking  .

Maybe one day I'll attempt to purchase a single bar.


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## eucalypta (Jun 28, 2009)

vivcarm said:
			
		

> Oh no you should try, I love figs and leaves, and skinny dip. .... !



My favorites too 
Found the skinny dip dupe FO - great! So now I've got some home made skinny dip salt bars!
I love the Red Rooster too (Retro collection) - of course that is not a difficult one to duplicate 
As I wrote before, I wouldn't mind working with their scent expert for a while  8)


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## vivcarm (Jun 29, 2009)

eucalypta said:
			
		

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Eucalypta, where did you find the skinny dip dupe, I do my own but it is not quite the same? I lOVE that smell!


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## CookieChan (Oct 1, 2009)

Just found this thread and I found it very interesting so I'm bumping it up!

I think I read somewhere that "fragrance" in their ingredients list is just  EO and a way to keep their blends a secret. I always though it was a bit weird since they don't smell like just EO and they do list some of the EOs they use.
They have SLS and parabens in most of their products too and a lot of their soaps aren't soaps, they're SLS based. And the massage/lotion bars... some of them contain fresh fruit but no preservative? How does that work?

I used to be a big Lush fan because I thought they were all natural. I still like a lot of Lush products though, they're not bad, just not all that natural.


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## Layne (Oct 1, 2009)

some interesting reading
business plan/history of lust?
http://www.answers.com/topic/lush-ltd


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