# Cracks in gel phase



## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

Need advice! My cold process soap continues to crack during gel phase in mold no matter what temp I soap at. It cracks less when soaping around 80 degrees, but still cracks. I ran the recipe through several calculators, which all gave the same lye measurements. I have tried insulating more, not insulating. No change. The next batch is cooling now getting ready to mix. This batch is going directly to the fridge. Maybe that will work, but beyond that, I am at a loss. Does anyone have any suggestions? I am using 4.8 oz. Almond, 2.4 oz. Castor, 4.8 oz. Cocoa butter, 9.6 oz. Coconut oil, 4.8 oz. Shea butter, 13.44 oz. Sunflower, 4.8 oz. Olive, 2.4 oz. Palm, 0.96 oz. Palm flakes, 18.24 oz. Distilled water, and 6.63 oz. Lye. Thank you for your time.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 1, 2017)

Nine fats. That's a lot. And it's higher in linoleic acid than I'd be comfortable with. 

But nothing in your recipe jumps out at me as being an obvious culprit.

Please provide a photo of the soap and of the mold you use. 
Are you a beginner soaper or an experienced hand? 
What method do you use to make the soap?
How many times have you made this recipe? Does it ALWAYS crack?
Have you tried other recipes? If so, do they crack?


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## RalphTheMastiff (Mar 1, 2017)

Way over my head, but look forward to reading the responses and seeing pictures.  Besides the cracking how does the soap work?


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## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

I am new at this. I have read everything I can find, and pretty sure I have watched every you tube video on soap making multiple times over the last three years. Finally jumped in to try it. Molds are pictured, and are from essential soap, I think. Are nine oils bad? I'm going for something that will be super moisturizing for my skin, will be good for my SO's eczema, but will still cut the grease off his dirty hands! The goal is to eventually get good enough to eliminate the palm oils, replace with beeswax, and have a bar of soap that still works for our needs.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 1, 2017)

If you reduce your water some that may help. Also, beeswax is not a replacement for palm. Beeswax should only be used at 2-3%. Tallow or lard are replacements for palm.  Unless you are just using the for hardness. Also, soap isn't moisturizing it can just be less stripping depending on SF and the amount  of cleansing oils like CO or PKO is used.  It will just take some playing with your formulation.  Welcome to the forum.


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## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

Hi Ralph. Well, the castille soap I made looks like it turned out great, but it is on the racks for a while to cure. The recipe I tried with beeswax... Disaster. I soaped it way too cool, and pretty sure it false traced then started to seize. Threw it in in a mold anyway. Has white spits, so probably not going to be useable. Three other attempts made cracked soap. I was able to spritz with alcohol to get rid of the cracks, but my pretty swirls aren't pretty anymore! This is trial and error, but I need a little less error!


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## penelopejane (Mar 1, 2017)

Just_jess said:


> I am new at this. Molds are pictured, and are from essential soap, I think. Are nine oils bad? I'm going for something that will be super moisturizing for my skin, will be good for my SO's eczema. QUOTE]
> 
> What are your additives? Honey? Milk?


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## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

I am only using the palms for increased hardness, and I read it helps stabilize lather.


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## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

These are my first batches. No additives. Trying to get the process/ recipe down, then add other oils for some slight increase in superfats after trace. Maybe argan oil, mango butter, etc?


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## toxikon (Mar 1, 2017)

Question - are you soaping at 80 degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius?

And as for adding your superfat after trace, it doesn't do anything special for cold process soap. You can't choose what oils become the superfat, because the soap saponifies over the course of several days. The lye just takes what it wants.

With hot process, you have a better chance of choosing your superfat because the soap mostly finishes saponifying as you cook.


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## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

Fahrenheit. Thank you for the info on the superfats. I haven't read anything that specified between cold and hot process.


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## BattleGnome (Mar 1, 2017)

Just_jess said:


> Has white spits, so probably not going to be useable. Three other attempts made cracked soap. I was able to spritz with alcohol to get rid of the cracks, but my pretty swirls aren't pretty anymore! This is trial and error, but I need a little less error!



White spots may not necessarily mean unusable. If you post a pic of what you mean we may be able to help id them. 

I'm also confused by what you mean by cracked soap. Your pics didn't look cracked to me (but I did just wake up and am still a bit blurry eyed). What trace are you pouring at? I feel like you are describing one thing but labeling it another (just a vocabulary mix up) or maybe it's my brain struggling with words right now. Can you show a before/after of the alcohol spritz?


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## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

Sorry, i didnt take a pic of the cracks before I spritzed, but in the second pic in the first set, there is a small one that was too dry, but it doesn't show up well. I just poured another batch though, but I put it straight in the fridge and watching it close. The white spots are in this pic of the soap with beeswax that was an attempt at salvaging a disaster! Here is the pic. Another batch has similar appearing spots, but when shaved, this are air bubbles. When I shaved this one to see what it was, they are solid particle-like spots. I am pouring between a custard to thin pudding trace.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 1, 2017)

I'm not seeing the crack either. I thought you were talking about the Grand Canyon or something. :mrgreen:

Your pictures suggest you are stacking your molds or sitting them closely side by side. If you're doing that while they saponify, you might want to start spreading them apart a bit.

In regards to your recipe calling for 9 fats -- yes, that's a lot. Many newer soapers are lured for awhile into the "everything and the kitchen sink" philosophy of recipe design. Usually this wears off as one gets more experience and learns what works and what doesn't. There are many lovely soap recipes that use only 3 to 6 fats. 

If you want to use an exotic or expensive fat, it is often more beneficial to use it in a lotion or other leave-on product.


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## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

They were large gash-like cracks. Between rubbing them with alcohol and smashing the center part up a little I was able to fix them. The height difference in the pic of the bar is an indicator of the size of the crack. It was all similar height, but ended up with one side higher than the other.  I sat one soap on top of an empty basket to take the pic. The one I put directly into the fridge did not go through gel and crack, at least so far, so maybe it is just a temperature thing! Would reducing the butters help? Can I soap at a lower temp than 80?


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## penelopejane (Mar 1, 2017)

Just_jess said:


> They were large gash-like cracks. Between rubbing them with alcohol and smashing the center part up a little I was able to fix them. The height difference in the pic of the bar is an indicator of the size of the crack. It was all similar height, but ended up with one side higher than the other.  I sat one soap on top of an empty basket to take the pic. The one I put directly into the fridge did not go through gel and crack, at least so far, so maybe it is just a temperature thing! Would reducing the butters help? Can I soap at a lower temp than 80?



A popular good recipe to start is 30/30/30/10 Olive/Coconut/Palm/Castor

Most people, though like to keep coconut well below 20% and castor
max 5%.  So if you upped tweeked your olive and palm and then maybe added one butter you would have a good start towards a basic recipe. 

Then you could compare it to one made with sunflower instead of the olive.  
Then you could compare one made with each of the butters. 

You might find that the shea, coconut, palm and cocoa butters need a bit of heat to melt. If they don't get melted properly they tend to leave little dots in the soap.  They need to be clear when you heat them. When they are clear SB with your other oils then add the lye.  Then carefully SB or just mix by hand to get trace.  Don't add oils after trace.



Just_jess said:


> These are my first batches. No additives. Trying to get the process/ recipe down, then add other oils for some slight increase in superfats after trace. Maybe argan oil, mango butter, etc?



You must have used some additives to get the colour?


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## Just_jess (Mar 1, 2017)

Oh yes. The soap color from hobby lobby in two batches. Sorry. I was thinking additives with sugar like milk or honey that I read can cause heating and scorching. Thank you all for the tips!


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## cmzaha (Mar 1, 2017)

Just_jess said:


> These are my first batches. No additives. Trying to get the process/ recipe down, then add other oils for some slight increase in superfats after trace. Maybe argan oil, mango butter, etc?


 In my opinion using expensive oils like argan is a complete waste of money in soap, save it for leave on products. 

As mentioned above try lowering your water. Palm Kernel is used with/ or in place of CO to add lather, Palm Oil is for adding hardness and longevitity is you do not want to use Tallow or Lard.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 2, 2017)

These are also not small batches. Maybe try 1lb batches while playing - this will save money and also mean you don't have too many bars of one soap to use up even though you know what adjustments you need to make. 

I think that your one size fits all approach just won't work. But that is okay - you can make a milder soap to try to help the eczema, but a different bar to help clean grubby paws


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## Susie (Mar 2, 2017)

Soap colorant from Hobby Lobby is intended for MP soap, not CP soap.  

Your soap is overheating.  I don't know what the cause is, but it is.  Use less water, less insulation, put it in the fridge, just get it cooler.  Then we can figure out what it is once you stop having the problem by adding one factor back at the time.


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## Just_jess (Mar 2, 2017)

Thank you all for the help.  Very much appreciated.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 2, 2017)

Just a tip as we continue to troubleshoot with you -- we really need the WHOLE story, not just what you have decided is important. Many people come here asking for help and are perfectly certain the problem is "XYZ" but when we tease out the entire story, it turns out to be "ABC". 

I mean -- think about it -- if what you think is the problem was really the problem, you would already have the answer and you wouldn't be asking for help! So don't rule out anything -- additives, method, whatever -- as being not worth sharing if you want the best advice. 

Examples -- Some additives contain alcohol that will cause problems. Fragrances can contain chemicals that cause acceleration. Some fats are older and are starting to have a higher acidity, and that will cause fast saponification. And so on. 

Some of the advice -- soap cooler, use less water -- might have some benefit, but I'm still not sure what your essential problem is with this recipe. 

You're already soaping pretty cool and I doubt going any colder is going to get you much benefit. In fact, you're risking "false trace" by soaping cool with a larger % of solid fats in that recipe. I usually soap with my ingredients about 100-120 F and seldom get any kind of cracking. Not saying never, but seldom. 

Your coconut oil % is reasonably low, so I agree with the others that you might try using a little less water. What less water does is reduce the chance the soap will gel and that sometimes can be helpful. That may get your recipe back under control. To accomplish this, if you are using "water as % of oils" to calculate the water for the recipe, I recommend switching to "lye concentration" or "water:lye ratio". There are good reasons for my advice, but rather than get into that right now, take me on faith for now that this is a good thing to do. We can talk theory later. Your current lye concentration is about 27%. Set the lye concentration to, oh, maybe 30% and try that. And then try 33% and see what you think.

Is there a reason why you are using such a high % of butters in the recipe and so little of the other more common palmitic-stearic fats? More commonly used fats in this group would be palm (not palm kernel), tallow, and lard. These fats are usually steady performers, but what I hear from other soapers, the butters can be less predictable, especially in larger amounts.

That brings me to my earlier questions -- How many times have you made this recipe? Does it ALWAYS crack? Have you tried other recipes? If so, do they crack? If you've made a more "typical" recipe (lower in butters) with success and this high-butter recipe doesn't work so well, then perhaps this is a clue.


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## Just_jess (Mar 2, 2017)

Thank you. I have made six batches so far. All of them cracked except the one that went straight into the fridge. Two had color added. The butters are close to a year old, the oils are new. I chose the oils and butters based on the properties I read that they contribute to a bar of soap, then formulated based on suggested percentage ranges of each ingredient. (They are also the ones I had on hand to start trying to learn!) I made castille soap that turned out nice, but other than that no other recipes. I am taking everybody's suggestions though to reduce butters and water and see what happens.


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## Just_jess (Mar 3, 2017)

Changing the recipe to less butters, less sunflower oil, more olive oil, getting rid of the almond oil, and reducing the water a little did the trick! It did go through gel, but not even one little crack! Thank you all for all of your advice! Very greatly appreciated.


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