# Respect, Diversity, & Potential Shifts in Forum Behavior



## CaraBou (Jan 11, 2015)

The tone of the "This is me...connecting our names" thread may have negatively changed from its original warm and inviting nature, and since I was partly responsible for that change, I would like to address it.  I am not looking to start a debate or split people apart, and instead truly want to promote respect for diversity.

The thread I reference is at 
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46257 
and my post is #105 (at http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=482854#post482854)

The purpose of the original thread was about getting to know each other. Issue was taken with my pointing out how I am different from almost everyone else, which I did in an attempt to acknowledge and support someone else who bravely revealed her own difference from societal norm, which I presumed to be in attempt to share an integral part of herself with us, to find commonalities with others on this great forum, and possibly to promote safety for those who might be fearful of exposing a core part of themselves.  

I can't actually tell whether the issue was directed solely at me, or also to the post I was responding to. So for this discussion, I will focus only on my own topic, which was a lack of theism (i.e., disbelief in any god; being an atheist).  The response to my post was, leave anything with "ism" or "ist" out of the forum in order to remain polite and not evoke intolerance.  

I am confident that I was not disrespectful or intolerant in my post, and I also specifically chose words that would not imply anyone else should abandon their beliefs.  Further, I did not counter any of the forum's rules, which near as I can tell are disclosed at http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=13 and
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=2770

Therefore, I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that I was prodded to refrain from any discussion that might lead to religious debate. We all know that religion/spirituality is something that people tend to feel very strongly about, and is highly personal and individualistic; therefore, it is easy to evoke debate, antagonism, or righteousness, any of which can lead to the appearance of intolerance, impoliteness, or disrespect.  It is unlikely that anyone comes on a soap forum to be preached to, singled out, or argued with, so it could harm our community in the long run.  

I can support the nudge to refrain from religious reference, and request that others do it too. So far I have noticed no pushback on anyone sharing aspects of their religious/core beliefs (other than the impetus for this thread), so I think there has been a tolerance so far.  But we have learned through other posts that our forum community is very diverse, and that we value that diversity (for example see http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=50649).  

Please state your thoughts about this potential shift, in the respectful manner that we expect and are accustomed to.  It seems like this shift would be slight, as our "typical" conversations do not include any reference to theism.  Potential downsides could be that we become less personal and perhaps not overtly supporting diversity. 

Thanks in advance for your participation.

-Cara


----------



## Obsidian (Jan 11, 2015)

Personally, I don't think a hobbyist forum is the correct place to discuss sexuality or religion. Both hot topics that can push peoples buttons way too easy. I also don't feel either subjects are necessary to "get to know" someone in a casual manner over the net. Of course it would be different if a personal relationship is growing but some things are better left for PM's.


----------



## PinkCupcake (Jan 11, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> Personally, I don't think a hobbyist forum is the correct place to discuss sexuality or religion.



It's normal for people to mention their sexuality. They just usually don't realize that they are doing it, because their heterosexuality is pretty much assumed. Yes, I announced my sexuality. But so did many others, who showed pictures with a husband or wife.

I did think very carefully before making my post, but I am more comfortable when people know who I am, even if they don't like who I am.


----------



## Aline (Jan 11, 2015)

That is a good point about assumptions but I guess I am not focused on race, religious belief, sexual orientation etc in this forum or any. It's all about the soap......and the lotion and bath salts  and how you run your business.


----------



## CaraBou (Jan 11, 2015)

PinkCupcake said:


> It's normal for people to mention their sexuality. They just usually don't realize that they are doing it, because their heterosexuality is pretty much assumed. Yes, I announced my sexuality. But so did many others, who showed pictures with a husband or wife.


 
Agreed, 100%, and the same is true for religion through very frequent reference to god, Jesus and praying.



PinkCupcake said:


> I did think very carefully before making my post, but I am more comfortable when people know who I am, even if they don't like who I am.


 
Agreed again, especially when it is totally acceptable for other people to freely announce their values when they fit within the norm. Note here no one is harming any other person; that I wouldn't agree with.



Aline said:


> That is a good point about assumptions but I guess I am not focused on race, religious belief, sexual orientation etc in a forum like this. It's all about the soap......and the lotion and bath salts  and how you run your business.


 
Just a reminder that all of these threads have been in the General Chat forum, which is wide open and does not have to be related to soap. However, I have seen reference to religion in threads outside of the General Chat.


----------



## navigator9 (Jan 11, 2015)

Carabou and Cupcake, I for one, certainly took no offense in your statements about religion and sexuality. I would take offense only if someone tried to express an opinion that their life choices were the the "correct" ones, and that everyone else who doesn't think likewise is somehow missing the point....and wrong. Being that the discussion occurred in the General Chat forum, a place to "Discuss the weather, reality television or anything else that's on your  mind. This is the place for all your off topic conversations.",I don't find it inappropriate in the least. If anyone felt offended by the topic, all they had to do was make the decision not to read the posts there. I have no problem with people's diversity. What I have a problem with is people who are mean and judgemental. I've been a member in other forums where that kind of behavior was allowed. Now,_* that*_ I take offense with. I haven't encountered that here, and it's a breath of fresh air. So as far as I'm concerned, discuss away, as long as it's with respect for other people's differences. I love the incredible diversity in this forum, and I embrace it. I think half of the world's problems come from an "us" and "them" mentality. We're so much more alike than we are different!


----------



## Obsidian (Jan 11, 2015)

PinkCupcake said:


> It's normal for people to mention their sexuality. They just usually don't realize that they are doing it, because their heterosexuality is pretty much assumed. Yes, I announced my sexuality. But so did many others, who showed pictures with a husband or wife.
> 
> I did think very carefully before making my post, but I am more comfortable when people know who I am, even if they don't like who I am.



I didn't read your original post pinkcupcake so this isn't directed  to you. I don't know how your orientation came to be mentioned, this is just generalization on how I've seen the subject brought up on other forums.

Its one thing to post a picture with your spouse, regardless of orientation, its something different to announce it like its important. 
I really don't care about a persons sexual orientation or religious beliefs, if I did I would ask. 
I also believe that any subject that creates strong feels and can cause a lot of hurtful comments just doesn't belong here.

This is a bit of a sore subject for me, not due to anything thats been said here or because of anyone beliefs. I go to another site where tolarance is shoved in your face but when I asked for the same acceptance, I was made fun of.

I'm just glad people here can discus touchy subjects and remain adult about it even when disagreeing.


----------



## TVivian (Jan 11, 2015)

I agree with Navigator. As long as I'm not being told my ways are wrong and someone else's are right or someone isn't being vulgar (and even then I'd just ignore anyway)  I say chat away. Online forums are not a place for thin skinned people. Read what you like, ignore what you don't. The end.


----------



## reinbeau (Jan 11, 2015)

I don't care who you sleep with, who you worship (or don't), or who you voted for.  I am here for soap.


----------



## marilynmac (Jan 11, 2015)

I agree with Ann ("I don't care who you sleep with, who you worship (or don't), or who you voted for.  I am here for soap.")  <Sorry my quote button is gone>.

And to take it one step further, I don't want to hear about it, either.   Not here.   There are plenty of other places to expound, complain, get pretentious, rant, push, USE ALL CAPS, etc.   Once you put that stuff out, people will judge you.


----------



## lenarenee (Jan 11, 2015)

navigator9 said:


> Carabou and Cupcake, I for one, certainly took no offense in your statements about religion and sexuality. I would take offense only if someone tried to express an opinion that their life choices were the the "correct" ones, and that everyone else who doesn't think likewise is somehow missing the point....and wrong. Being that the discussion occurred in the General Chat forum, a place to "Discuss the weather, reality television or anything else that's on your mind. This is the place for all your off topic conversations.",I don't find it inappropriate in the least. If anyone felt offended by the topic, all they had to do was make the decision not to read the posts there. I have no problem with people's diversity. What I have a problem with is people who are mean and judgemental. I've been a member in other forums where that kind of behavior was allowed. Now,_* that*_ I take offense with. I haven't encountered that here, and it's a breath of fresh air. So as far as I'm concerned, discuss away, as long as it's with respect for other people's differences. I love the incredible diversity in this forum, and I embrace it. I think half of the world's problems come from an "us" and "them" mentality. We're so much more alike than we are different!


 
I agree with this.  

Also, I think we need to remember that even as anonymous as the internet can be, our personality will (and probably should) leak out unintentionally. This is, after all, a social interaction.  Yes, all interactions should have limits, but we are human, and there will be problems.  Does that mean we establish strict limits on topics that are acceptable? Or do we establish a method to address perceived violations?  

I like Carabou's method....starting a discussion where the members are free to speak and set a standard for the forum together. We'll see.

I thoroughly enjoy learning about each person on the forum....I like the personal touch. Casually hearing a person's religious, political or sexual preferences on this forum doesn't bother me, whether I agree with it or not. Having mine challenged, or having their beliefs shoved down my throat in an effort to change mine, is a different matter.

(Glad I'm not a moderator though)


----------



## Susie (Jan 11, 2015)

I did not read anything in that thread that I consider inappropriate within the context of the thread.  It is about "meeting" one another.  I do, however, have very firm opinions about tolerance and respect.

I think that we should tolerate and respect that other people have lifestyles and beliefs that we do not share.  This, to me, means that you are free to post your opinions/lifestyle information without reprisal in the proper forum(s).  It also means you are free to NOT post them there.  If someone does not approve of someone else's opinions/lifestyles, they are NOT free to say ugly things(they can think anything they like, as long as they don't post it).  If someone crosses a line, the mods are there to handle it.(Thank goodness for them, and thank goodness it is not me.)


----------



## jules92207 (Jan 11, 2015)

I am with Susie. I didn't find anything offensive in anyone's post on that thread actually. It doesn't bother me if someone shares a religious or non religious belief or a different choice than mine, as long as I am given the same respect.

As Carabou wrote before, I believe in treating others how you want to be treated.


----------



## new12soap (Jan 11, 2015)

I just went back and glanced through that thread, and I saw nothing inappropriate or offensive.

I think references to who you are, your spouse, your family, etc. are perfectly acceptable to whatever level makes the poster comfortable.

I think it is not only possible but should be a requirement to be able to discuss things politely. And if you can't, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

I also think that while people are free to share whatever they wish about themselves, no one is permitted to tell anyone else how they should think or feel or believe or behave. That applies to every day in every situation with everyone, in real life as well as on the internet.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 12, 2015)

My thoughts on the matter -

If I can post a picture of my wife and I with the caption 'here is my wife and I' in a thread where we want to learn a bit more about each other, then so can anyone else in a legally recognized union (to use the word wife). If I could post there saying 'this is me at my church' then someone can post an image 'this is me dancing around a fire like a pixie princess'. 

Mentions about gender, sexuality and faith come up in normal use more often than we think. Mention that your wife loves your freshly shaven face but your son thinks a few days growth is better? You've mentioned gender and sexuality right there. 

It's okay - it happens.

However, if people started to randomly post about their sexuality or faith all over the forum then that is a different matter altogether - it is a soaping forum and even the general chat needs to stay within the thread aims. I see nothing wrong with what has happened so far there, though.


----------



## Dorymae (Jan 12, 2015)

Everyone of us is different in one way or another. I don't think any of us should have to hide who we are or how we are different. If a person is comfortable with who they are they should not feel the need to hide it because someone else might be offended - it is who the are. If someone is offended by who someone else is, in my personal opinion, it is their problem.  No one should ever have to hide a part of themselves.


----------



## Earthen_Step (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm with Susie and Navigator...  I took no offense and enjoyed the thread getting to know people here a little more.  I think religion, sexuality, politics and what not are such a deep part of us it can be hard to hold back.  I also would rather people feel comfortable enough to share that than feel like they have to hide it.  As long as things stay civil enough and without hatred.  I'd love to see our real selves shine through.


----------



## dixiedragon (Jan 12, 2015)

PinkCupcake said:


> It's normal for people to mention their sexuality. They just usually don't realize that they are doing it, because their heterosexuality is pretty much assumed. Yes, I announced my sexuality. But so did many others, who showed pictures with a husband or wife.
> 
> I did think very carefully before making my post, but I am more comfortable when people know who I am, even if they don't like who I am.


 
FTR, I saw nothing I found upsetting in the original thread. Did somebody recieve angry PMs? I didn't read the whole thread, but I didn't see any comments that seemed upset in the original thread.

I think there is a difference between DISCUSSING something and just MENTIONING it. For example, "I want to make soaps for gifts for XYZ religious holiday" is different than, "Here is what I believe and why." Or, "My best friend and her girlfriend just got engaged, and I want to make special soaps for their wedding," and "Here is what I believe about human sexuality and why." I think discussions on any non-soap topic should be on the General Discussion forum. Which they seem to be, so I don't see a problem.


----------



## lsg (Jan 12, 2015)

My opinion is that sexual orientation & religion are a matter of private and personal choice.  Racial heritage is something to be proud of ( I am a Missouri Redneck).  However, I do not think that this forum is the place to discuss these topics.  We are a friendly soap/bath & body, topic forum.  Let's keep it this way.  I am sure that there are plenty of forums for discussion of these other topics.


----------



## Cactuslily (Jan 12, 2015)

As someone new to forums, this being my first, I read through entire thread. I found it wonderful to see all the faces that were shared behind the soaps  I found nothing offensive. I had a poster in my house when my kids were little entitled "everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten"
Basically, be kind and gentle with you words. Respect one another. Treat each other as you wish to be treated. I personally don't care who you love, who you marry, or who you pray to. I care that on this forum, you're kind, respectful, help me with my soaping problems.


----------



## Susie (Jan 12, 2015)

lsg said:


> My opinion is that sexual orientation & religion are a matter of private and personal choice.  Racial heritage is something to be proud of ( I am a Missouri Redneck).  However, I do not think that this forum is the place to discuss these topics.  We are a friendly soap/bath & body, topic forum.  Let's keep it this way.  I am sure that there are plenty of forums for discussion of these other topics.



I am not challenging you in any way, lsg, I respect what you admins and mods do as well as the way you do it.  Problems are handled in a timely and professional manner that keeps this forum a warm and friendly place to discuss soap and such.  However, is there any way I can get a firmer idea of what is OK, and what is not?  

I think we(the folks who have stated such here) all agree that within a context of a "getting to know you" thread in the general forum, that just a simple statement of "this is who I am" is in an acceptable place and is OK.  But, if I am wrong, I need to know that so I can avoid issues in the future.  I value having a safe and friendly forum enough that I will happily modify what I think is OK to post or not OK to post.  But I need a firmer definition of that to not cross that line.


----------



## JustBeachy (Jan 12, 2015)

As long as no one is berating anyone's choice of life, religion, etc, I just can't find any reason why people can't express who they are. Personally, I haven't seen any kind of a problem on this forum with "taboo" items being discussed. Religion, Politics, Sexual Orientation. 

I believe in God.  It's not really a concern of mine what you believe in. 
I used to be so Republican, I made Reagan look like a liberal. Now I'd say I'm closer to being an anarchist, cause I don't like any of them. 
I like women! That's what works for me. What ever works for you is cool, just don't ask me to change to meet your desires.

Point is, we should all be able to express ourselves in an open manner, without fear of reprisal or people taking a "unwarranted" offense. If you're offended because someone is gay or doesn't believe in the same God you do, then it's probably time to take a closer look at your own thought process. On the other side of the coin, when people tell me my beliefs are wrong or silly, I don't get offended. I just laugh at them. 

We're becoming so **** politically correct, we're losing track of common sense.


----------



## lsg (Jan 12, 2015)

I went back and read over the posts and I have to say I probably jumped to the wrong conclusion.  So as long as everyone can remain civil and understanding, I guess the thread is good to go.:grin:  This is open discussion after all.  I was wrong, but I assure you it wasn't the first time and probably won't be the last time.:crazy:  Sorry about that.


----------



## Dorymae (Jan 12, 2015)

JustBeachy said:


> We're becoming so **** politically correct, we're losing track of common sense.



Truer words were never spoken!  Unfortunately common sense is not so common anymore.


----------



## LBussy (Jan 12, 2015)

As the troublemaker who may have started all this I just want to say I agree with everything people said here and I WANT TO KEEP IT THAT WAY.  "Here is my wife and I" is somewhat different in the delivery and impact vs. "I'm straight and here's my wife."   No I don't think there were any nasty PM's.  The nature of this forum may be such that such would not happen about _this_, but imagine if I said "I am an NRA member and here is a picture of some soap I made for after shooting" ... if someone was vehemently anti-gun.  Ya know?

I don't want people to hide; I also don't think overt announcements about political, spiritual, sexual, racial, or ... um .. that's all the ones I can think of ... are appropriate _here_.  I mean, like everyone said, there was nothing mean about that thread.  But LOOK at all the feelings it's brought up.  It would take exactly one insensitive person to derail that thread into something not intended.  I'd just really like to not ever see that sort of thing here, so I said something and then followed up in a PM to try to make doubly sure I was not misunderstood.

Group hug y'all!


----------



## shunt2011 (Jan 12, 2015)

I see no problem with folks just showing and being proud of their families and who they are.  I personally don't care what religion you are or are not or what your sexual preference is or isn't.  We are all adults here and as long as we are all respectful of each other and don't start hating or getting out of line all is good.   This is the general forum and as long as all guidelines are followed and it stays a discussion it will remain.  If it should get out of line in any way it will be closed.  So, please just be respectful and kind.  If you don't like something being posted then don't read it and move on.  There are a zillion topics  on this forum so there is something for everyone.


----------



## Jstar (Jan 12, 2015)

After reading again and again, I had a very long post written..however I'll just shorten it down a bit..I myself was not offended..I thought it was odd how the subject came up, but I wasn't offended..I just kept reading about all the wonderful ppl on this forum.

I have friends in all walks of life, all orientations and beliefs..all colors and cultures..I got no issues with them. I have my beliefs, and my personal standards and Im comfortable enough with them till others do not bother me..Im nobody's judge.

My time here on this forum has been short but I have become so close to you all here till I couldn't make it a day without checking in to see what all my new friends are doing..IMO, thats a good thing, and I'd be mighty sad if anything changed here..I have seen more respect on this forum than hundreds of others I have been on..and Im not goin nowhere...just so's ya know..

I lubs you all!!

There's my 3 soapbubbles on the subject..so read 'em n weep


----------



## lionprincess00 (Jan 12, 2015)

Jstar said:


> I have friends in all walks of life, all orientations and beliefs..all colors and cultures..



I have no friends. 
I like soap. 
I'm not interested in anyone's sexuality, except my own when the time arises
:wink:

I am secretly interested in cmzaha's Willy warmer thread, though I'd never post the fact.

Wait a minute...
:silent:

Edit to say I was trying to lighten the mood. I think it's obvious this is one of the tamest and kindest forums ever. I've been in some mean ones too, and if you've ever been in a birth forum you'd totally understand... whew! 
Any who, I wanted to chime in and be light hearted.

Edit again, is it me or has society as a whole become too sensitive we feel the need to say sorry for everything? I felt bad for being silly dad gummit lol!!! 

Ok, carry on.


----------



## Susie (Jan 12, 2015)

I love this group of folks!  {BIG HUGS}!!!!!  People who were given a perfect opportunity to act badly, and everyone, EVERYONE chose to act like reasonable, respectful adults!!!!  And I am so very happy to be a part of it!!!!!!


----------



## IrishLass (Jan 12, 2015)

LBussy said:


> As the troublemaker who may have started all this


 
Aha! I _knew_ it! Leave it to one of the troublemaking wet-shaving dudes!  :mrgreen: 

Seriously, though, I just want to say how proud I am of y'all and the maturity and respect that has been shown here, one towards another, in being able to agree to disagree and/or to live and let live. We have a great forum family here, and we really want to keep it that way. 

I also want to reiterate what my fellow moderators ISG and Shari posted above- that as long as everyone remains civil and understanding and respectful of the forum guidelines written here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=13 ,then the topic will remain.

If not, then... well..... as my mom used to say, "Don't make me pull this car over and come back there...." 


IrishLass


----------



## dixiedragon (Jan 13, 2015)

LBussy said:


> but imagine if I said "I am an NRA member and here is a picture of some soap I made for after shooting" ... if someone was vehemently anti-gun. Ya know?
> 
> Group hug y'all!


 
I've actually seen people talking about making soap from fat from a deer they've harvested.

I think people on this forum are really good about not saying anything if they don't like something on a thread. The only things people post about vehemently here are safety and accuracy of information regarding soap, lotion, etc. I haven't seen any heated discussion about (for example) using animal fats or using organic products, but I have seen people get vehement about using preservatives in lotion.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 13, 2015)

dixiedragon said:


> I've actually seen people talking about making soap from fat from a deer they've harvested........


 
I do think it is different if it is at least a little bit on topic.

"Here's some soaps I made for my church..........." is different to "I am a Christian and here are some soaps............".  The first one has a context aspect (who we make the soap for can often be an important part of the message) whereas the second example, the inclusion of religion really brings nothing to the mix.

"here is some fat rendered from a deer that I (or someone else) hunted.........." is different to "I like to hunt.  Here is some soap.........."




dixiedragon said:


> .............. but I have seen people get vehement about using preservatives in lotion.


 
That's because we know our priorities!  :-D


----------



## reinbeau (Jan 13, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I do think it is different if it is at least a little bit on topic.
> 
> "Here's some soaps I made for my church..........." is different to "I am a Christian and here are some soaps............".  The first one has a context aspect (who we make the soap for can often be an important part of the message) whereas the second example, the inclusion of religion really brings nothing to the mix.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but I gotta discuss the elephant we're all ignoring.  This is exactly why we're having this conversation.  "I can't be the only lesbian here" added nothing to any discussions.  I'm sure there are many.  And gay men.  Don't care who they sleep with.  Please show me your soap.


----------



## LBussy (Jan 13, 2015)

reinbeau said:


> lease show me your soap.


Well I dropped my soap ...

Oh come ON, that was funny!  :clap::angel:


----------



## ariella42 (Jan 13, 2015)

But wasn't the discussion about getting to know each other? Putting a face to a name, etc? It wasn't a thread for people to show their soap or specifically talk about soap. A lot of people showed their spouse or significant other and mentioned who they were. Why should she be any different?


----------



## snappyllama (Jan 13, 2015)

I agree. 

If I had seen everyone with red hair on the introduction forum, I would have said "I cannot believe I'm the only brunette here". There is nothing odd or inciting or off-topic about that at all... Wondering if you're the only lesbian after seeing pictures of only mixed-gender-couples is the same thing in my book. 

There really isn't a point to reading an introduction post if you will be offended when someone tells you about herself. Let's keep this forum a respectful and welcoming place where we can all share our love of soap and equally feel comfortable talking about our families when it comes up.


----------



## Saponista (Jan 13, 2015)

I agree with snappy. Let's keep the forum a warm an welcoming place.


----------



## lenarenee (Jan 13, 2015)

That's not an elephant for me, its a non-issue - even for a soap forum. Forums are made of people, and people  come in many packages.

I remember reading that; remember thinking how brave that person was for posting it, and my respect level go sky high.  I don't remember who it was. Don't care enough to go back and look.


----------



## CaraBou (Jan 15, 2015)

So glad I posted this.  And it has nothing to do with being right or wrong.  I knew we could handle what would come up, and we would be better for it all the way around.

Thank you Lee for joining in. I never saw you as a troublemaker, though I do think we love our bad boys here :razz:

That last statement just goes to show how easy it is to stereotype. I meant it, but only as a joke.  Smiling is good.


----------



## Ruthie (Jan 16, 2015)

I've written probably 4 replies to this thread and ditched every one of them.  Part of the reason is that I can't bring myself to read all these posts, so I really do not know what has been said.

So that is my disclaimer.  But the fact is, I am here to share and learn about soap making and the like.  Sometimes I do share a bit of info that reveals about my life and beliefs.  But that is just in passing.  It matters not to me what your lifestyle is about.  If you are nice to me and my soap making friends, I'll be nice to you.  If you are not, I just may call you out (unless someone has beaten me to it.)  But we can go on from there and learn together.  

This forum is the most polite I have found on any subject.  That speaks volumes about the people here, and I admire you for it, whatever your lifestyle or beliefs.


----------



## LBussy (Jan 16, 2015)

Ruthie said:


> I've written probably 4 replies to this thread and ditched every one of them.  Part of the reason is that I can't bring myself to read all these posts, so I really do not know what has been said.


Ruthie, if it helps: everyone has been very polite ... it's just a discussion about how we can keep it that way.  We differ in opinions on that matter but suffice it to say everyone's been on their best behavior.  I do agree this is one of the most courteous places I have been on the Internet.


----------



## Susie (Jan 16, 2015)

Ruthie, the TLDR(too long, didn't read) version basically comes down to this:

There is a time and place for sharing personal info.  And as long as people avoid driving their opinions down others' throats or being ugly, we have no new restrictions.


----------



## Ruthie (Jan 16, 2015)

...oh, and I meant to add a quote from Ellen Degeneres:  "Do we have to know who's gay and who's straight?  Can't we love everybody and judge them by the car they drive?"


----------



## fuzz-juzz (Jan 16, 2015)

I didn't see issue in said posts.
I saw Pinkcupcake's post as an invitation to meet her family and also what CaraBou said was I guess, missunderstood a bit.
Of course it doesn't matter who's believing in what and what one does in private life. But we are humans, and love to talk a lot and those kind of topics will pop up in discussions. I belong to few forums, parenting mainly, but religion, politics and different sexual orientation pop up in discussions often. And let me tell you, it's not always nice. Some people often make me lose faith in humanity and they are parents, shaping little human's minds!
As long as we are kind, understanding and civilised towards others, like we are in this friendly forum, I don't see the problem.


----------



## CaraBou (Jan 17, 2015)

I propose we keep as much as possible of the potentially controversial stuff in the General Chat forum, and even then, only when it is at least somewhat on topic (like "getting to know you").  That would keep it out of the soap talk (which we're already pretty good about).  

One place for improvement is in the signature file. Since that goes everywhere that you go, it leaves an indelible mark where it doesn't belong.  Soap is so perfect -- why drag in controversy?


----------



## Susie (Jan 17, 2015)

Censorship is censorship.  No matter who it is censoring.

I have kept my mouth shut over posts with expletives peppering their titles and content.  Even though it offends me, and I think it has no place in a civilized forum.  I support their right to free speech.  I support everyone's right to free speech even if I do not share their opinions.  As long as no one is being ugly to someone else, they have the right to post what they want, and that includes signatures.

Tolerance and respect either works both ways, or it does not work at all.


----------



## LBussy (Jan 17, 2015)

I don't believe in censorship (although I do believe in active moderation if we have a butt-head).  I have been on forums where people just could not keep themselves from going over the top.  I believe (me, not a statement of fact) that this is more common when it's just men.  We react to a challenge among men in different ways.  I think you ladies are a calming influence .. on me anyway.  :razz:


----------



## CaraBou (Jan 18, 2015)

LBussy said:


> I don't believe in censorship (although I do believe in active moderation if we have a butt-head).



That's an interesting statement given how this whole thread started:



LBussy said:


> I think pretty much any "ism" or "ist" is best left at the door in any conversation we wish to remain consistently polite.





LBussy said:


> > Glad I have a strong sense of self, instead of believing my body parts were swapped or otherwise deformed at birth.
> >
> > Additionally, I wasn't talking about censorship; I was promoting people to keep respect for diversity in mind before tracking dogma through non-General Chat forums via their signature files. We all have different values; asserting yours in the Beginner's Soap Making Forum, CP Soap Forum, etc., can be preachy, intimidating, or inciteful. This may be inadvertent, but consciousness can prevail.  I am only responsible for myself, and I will do my best.


----------



## LBussy (Jan 18, 2015)

See, we're all agreeing here but you seem to want to argue more - with me at least.

I think people may contribute to a more effective online environment if they leave aside potentially polarizing overt statements.  Yes it is true that when I say "this is my wife" I am claiming heterosexuality (but only if you know I am a man to begin with.)  What gets touchy is when people come out and make a proclamation.  What if you were a woman of color and someone else comes out and says "I can't believe I'm the only black woman here!"  Do we have issue with a skin color not our own?  Of course not!  What may cause friction however is if there IS another woman of color.  What does that mean to her?  Does it mean she should have proclaimed herself first?  Did she lose some credibility by not making sure everyone knows?  I should never say "this is my Jewish friend" but saying "I am Jewish" is somehow protected because we are afraid of alienating a group identified to be different by suggesting they not say it?  What does it matter either way to the conversation if it's just introducing yourself?

I am not suggesting "there ought to be a rule", I am suggesting that sometimes people say things they really mean to be innocuous but the impact is sometimes not.  I don't think I have to change who I am for anybody, but I want to know if HOW I say things might be taken incorrectly.  I'm not suggesting we enlist the help of the PC police either ... just that sometimes people want to know if words they have chosen come across in a manner they did not intend.  If they tell me to mind my own business I will, but I treat others the way I like to be treated and that's something I do like to hear about.

I'll give you an example of something I did:  On the shaving forum we were talking about this forum.  I was talking about how nice and helpful everyone here was.  I said something to the effect of it reminded me of a bunch of nice little old ladies.  Someone rightfully called me out, asking if I thought everyone here was old.  That's NOT what I mean, just that a warm, inviting, creative atmosphere sort of fosters images of my own grandmother in her domain (kitchen).  She was a very crafty person.  To me, in that post, I meant it as a compliment but it was a poor choice of words without a VERY long explanation.  Should I be allowed to have a mental picture of my Grandmother's crafts while I am here?  Should I feel as invited as I did in my Grandmother's kitchen?  I absolutely should!  Should I be allowed to share that feeling?  Yes!  If I want to avoid someone getting bent outta shape should I maybe use a different way to say it?  Absolutely!

PinkCupcake and I exchanged a couple PM's at the time, we're not mad at each other.  She understand me the best I can explain it and I understand her.  I'm pretty sure all the talk here is not serving any real purpose other than to decide whether or not I had the right to suggest we _voluntarily_ leave overt statements about polarizing differences at the door.  If you don't agree with me, that's fine too.  I can however guarantee you will not change my mind about the way I feel.  I may not change the way PinkCupcake feels about it either if that was an intentional choice of words.  However, if as I believe, she meant it completely different she deserves to know how it could have been received.

Now as soon as I figure out how to unsubscribe from this thread I will - if I keep receiving emails telling me someone disagrees I'm bound to be taunted into opening my mouth again.  I'm only human.  If you really want to disagree with me directly you are welcome to send me a PM.  I accept that this may be seen as the electronic form of the last word so I encourage someone to post a reply so that does not stand.  I'm just not going to read it or discuss it anymore.


----------



## Susie (Jan 18, 2015)

CaraBou said:


> Additionally, I wasn't talking about censorship; I was promoting people to keep respect for diversity in mind before tracking dogma through non-General Chat forums via their signature files. We all have different values; asserting yours in the Beginner's Soap Making Forum, CP Soap Forum, etc., can be preachy, intimidating, or inciteful. This may be inadvertent, but consciousness can prevail.  I am only responsible for myself, and I will do my best.



I am sorry to have to tell you this, but, if someone gets to dictate what I put in my signature, it is censorship.  And furthermore, respect for diversity means you have to respect my rights also.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 18, 2015)

Let's try to keep it respectful all round - some of the last few comments seem to be going against that idea. 

And I do mean for all sides - what is 'dogma' to one person is 'faith' to another. That must also be respected if we have to respect different views. 

And where do we stop with sigs? No religious quotes? What about philosophy? Quotes from people who are against religion would then be disrespectful to people who follow religions, so do we ban all quotations from sigs?

I once worked in an office where they tried to be very prescriptive about what could and could not be eaten at the desk. But then each answer brings up 10 questions and it ends up being a nightmare. I don't want to have to do that sort of thing here!


----------



## Saponista (Jan 18, 2015)

*Respect, Diversity, &amp; Potential Shifts in Forum Behavior*

I disagree with the huge issue you have made out of something so small LBussy.


----------



## IrishLass (Jan 18, 2015)

The good Gent makes several good points. 

In the sprit of keeping things respectful and from the danger of going off the rails (again), I want to say that I really like Lee's suggestion: _"If you really want to disagree with me directly you are welcome to send me a PM."_

I couldn't agree more. As human beings, it's a given that that we will not always agree with each other on any number of fronts, but in order to keep things respectful and from taking a turn for the worse on the forum, I suggest that if you have a direct disagreement with someone, please, 'take it outside', as the saying goes. There's no need to involve everyone else in the disagreement in order to engage with the one person with which you have the real disagreement. 

As far as siggies go, no censorship need be applied as long as they adhere to the stated Forum Rules laid down here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=13


IrishLass


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 18, 2015)

Saponista said:


> I disagree with the huge issue you have made out of something so small LBussy.



Now here is an interesting point - If we have to respect your right to say this, we have to also respect Lee's right to say what he said in the first place.

The UK has a curious issue at the moment - Everyone has the right to faith and also to sexuality.  But then of course these sometimes go against each other (in which case, the right to sexuality has the advantage) and it is similar to what we have here.

But Lee has already admitted that the way he said it was not the best.  He has cleared things with the person involved.  Lee didn't start this thread, so if anything, Carabou and the other people posting here are making the huge issue out of it, not Lee.

Now, again I want to remind people to keep things civil.  Any statement of an opposing view should be put over well, ideally with something to back it up - otherwise it is just a stamp of the foot and a crossing of the arms which brings nothing forward.


----------



## Ruthie (Jan 19, 2015)

So do I understand this correctly that everyone was kind and Kum By Ya until I started reading?  But now things sound kinda touchy.

In an earlier time here I had a Reagan quote for my signature.  I still use it in my email.  It spells out in few words what I think is going wrong in our nation.  It did not belittle anyone but stated a viewpoint.  There was nothing wrong with it.  If I say "You are a goat because you wear your hair blue," then that crosses the line.  (And you blue-hairs out there, don't get touchy.  I really want blue in my white hair but my job won't let me.)

Respect/diversity does not mean I value your opinion over my own.  It means I value your right to be you.  If you do not value my right to be me, then YOU are the one not being respectful.  

If I make a comment and my words are misunderstood, then I have an obligation to explain myself more fully.  I may apologize, but if I was not being offensive in the first place, that apology is a common courtesy, not a necessity.  Afterwards it is your responsibility to accept my explanation, but not necessarily to agree with it.  

But if you are angry just because I am who I am?  Then that is YOUR problem, not mine!  I guess I'm pretty thick skinned, but often when I am insulted (and I am at least once a month on FB by a friend's offspring) I tell the offending person, "Your comment says more about you than it does me." (Let me tell you, that gets to a person wanting to get an argument!)


----------



## CaraBou (Jan 19, 2015)

I love soap. Simple, real, soap.  Thank you.


----------



## lsg (Jan 19, 2015)

I love your soap bands.


----------



## Lindy (Jan 19, 2015)

Beautiful soap ~ I love the flower


----------



## JustBeachy (Jan 19, 2015)

I've been busy lately, and haven't been spending much time around the computer, so I've been a bit absent. Thought I'd chime in again on this post though. 

To be open minded, means exactly that. Open minded. Lee has a right to his opinion, so does Carabou. and for that matter, everyone else that's responded.  In my opinion, problems arise when people start trying to explain their opinions.I would assume it's very rare for someone to read a response and say, "Wow, I've just changed my entire thought process on the subject".   So why argue about it. Though I'll add, even the "arguments on this thread have been well behaved and handled in an adult manner.

 I respect people that truly believe in what they believe, not just belief to conform to what others believe. People who don't try to convince others to change their beliefs, because it differs from what they believe. Again, if we don't lose track of common sense and common courtesy, a lot of life's problems and differences stand out for what they are. Little blips that truly mean next to nothing. 

And thanks for not censoring  the sig's. There's some of the best sig's ever on this site.


----------



## lionprincess00 (Jan 19, 2015)

I stand by what I said.



Willy warmers.


Who knew
:shock::think::shock:;-)

I wish I was witty enough to come up with a sig beachy, but alas I am not.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 20, 2015)

Lionprincess, I think yours sig should be 'willy warmers'


----------



## Hazel (Jan 20, 2015)

lionprincess00 said:


> I wish I was witty enough to come up with a sig beachy, but alas I am not.



You don't need to be witty. I'm not and I change my sig line quite a bit. Just spend a little time with Google and you'll find quotes about every subject under the sun. You could also use a sentence from a favorite book, song or bumper sticker.

Then again, you could PM me 'cuz I've got lots of funny quotes saved in a Word doc. :grin:


----------



## Susie (Jan 20, 2015)

When I want a quote, I type into Google or Bing, "Quotes about <whatever I like>."  Life, love, whatever.


----------



## IrishLass (Jan 20, 2015)

Hazel said:


> Then again, you could PM me 'cuz I've got lots of funny quotes saved in a Word doc. :grin:


 
I'd definitely take her up on it, because Hazel has some awesomely witty quotes and sayings up her sleeve. 


IrishLass


----------



## Pepsi Girl (Jan 20, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> I'd definitely take her up on it, because Hazel has some awesomely witty quotes and sayings up her sleeve.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Totally true!


----------



## Ruthie (Jan 21, 2015)

Or search out and choose an online quote treasury such as www.quotegarden.com.  I guarantee mine are not original, either.


----------



## IrishLass (Jan 21, 2015)

Mine is not original either. I found it when I Googled 'Humerous Quotes', although I'll be changing mine to a Hazel original shortly (as soon as I finish sending this post) since she gave me permission to use it. It's a beauty!


IrishLass


----------



## Hazel (Jan 21, 2015)

Aw shucks...thanks for the kind words.   




I've said it before and I'll say it again - Google is my friend.

My apologies to everyone for getting off topic.


----------

