# Melt and pour just as good as cold process?



## Sharee

Ive read on some sites that when making melt and pours you dont have as much control to what you put in the soaps...nd that is why cold process is more popular.  From what i understand there is no difference and you can add any natural oils colours etc but its just safer and faster. Plus you can get organic melt and pours too.
Can someone please explain.


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## cmzaha

Melt & Pour bases are usually premade base. Other than small amounts they are not made for adding in additives such as liquids. It is also hard to swirl m&p without purchasing the base made for swirling if you like swirls. 

Today most bases are actually made from cp soap with additives to make it clear and pourable. Back several years ago most m&p was synthetic and the ultra-clear m&p's are still usually synthetic. There are many m&p bases available, including Goat Milk, Shea Butter, Honey, etc. A few folks make their own base but it is not cost-effective nor works as well as the manufactured bases. The big boys just know how to make it well. What is fun is you buy the base color it, fragrance it and pour. Although there is a learning curve like everything else. My daughter created beautiful m&p and I am horrible working with it. 

There is nothing wrong with m&p and we always preferred the synthetic m&p bases for children's soap because it was a bit gentler than cp.


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## steffamarie

There is a big difference between melt & pour and cold process. You do have more control with CP, but MP can be good for beginners. With MP, the saponification is already done and all you need to do is melt it and add fragrance and color. With CP, you're doing the saponification yourself. It's more work and involves using lye solution so you have to ensure you're being careful and using the proper precautions. It's not that dangerous or difficult, but it does require a little extra know-how. Some people (me included) prefer to start with MP and progress to CP later on.

You also have to be careful what you add to MP. Adding a bunch of extras like milk, oils, and other powders can cause it to spoil or not perform well. I find that the lather on MP is already pretty scant (at least the brands that I've used) and my CP soaps lather a lot better. Adding extra stuff to MP usually doesn't help the lather like it might in CP. They're very different processes and one does not work just like the other. 

MP is much faster than CP most times - it sets up in hours rather than day(s) and can be unmolded and cut much quicker. It's ultimately up to you to decide which product will help you achieve your soapmaking goals.


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## MGM

What they said! ^^^ Ultimately, they're kind of apples and oranges, really. It's like saying that cold cereal is better than porridge: depends what you're in the mood for that day.
Some additives work much better in M&P: pretty much all fragrances and EOs hold better in M&P, as do colours. Mica shimmers in translucent M&P, whereas it's a flat colour in (almost all) CP and colours are generally less vibrant. Botanicals often do well in M&P. It's easy to get straight lines and flat layers in M&P. You can get great detail with M&P, especially with embeds. 
I started off with M&P then got hooked with CP, but I have to say, if you want to make one bar to test a fragrance or colour* or just to make something special, nothing beats M&P. 10 min to make; use later that day ;-)

(*test in general I mean. Results from M&P often do not replicate in CP. You're best to rely on product reviews for accurate info on colour switches/fades and scent lasting.)


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## Sharee

Thank you guys for replying so quickly. Its much appreciated by a newbie. I figured id buy a mp goat one and add oats and shea butter and some essential oils to make it smell nice. Maybe an orange. If theres organic mps out now i still dont understand the popularity of cp if you can pretty much make mps just as natural now and its safer and faster anyway.


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## MGM

Sharee said:


> If theres organic mps out now i still dont understand the popularity of cp if you can pretty much make mps just as natural now and its safer and faster anyway.


Well, the product isn't the same, at all.
And, there are many more options with CP, because there are more variables.
Now, if you were smart, @Sharee , you'd turn tail and run and stick with M&P. If you need any convincing, just do a search on the forum for "addiction", "I want to make soap all the time", "I dream/think only about soaping", "all my money goes to soap supplies" and, most recently, who's the biggest FOHO!!!!  
I'm in Ontario too. Who do you order supplies from usually?


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## Dahila

Sharee welcome to the forum I am also from Ontario,  and MCM we have tons of Canadian suppliers


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## Obsidian

The two products are quite different as far as performance and skin feel.

CP is oils, water and lye. M&P also has solvents and some kind of sugar, that is what makes it meltable.

I find m&p to generally be very harsh and terribly drying. I've only found two bases I can use, one is homemade by a member here while the other is a surfactant based on that comes in bulk.

If you want to experiment with m&p, make sure to buy a good base from a soap supplier. The bases from hobby stores are absolute garabge.


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## Dahila

I am with Obsidian,  I bought few soaps (M&P) on shows but all of them went to garbage, not for my sensitive skin


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## MGM

Dahila said:


> Sharee welcome to the forum I am also from Ontario,  and MCM we have tons of Canadian suppliers


Who though? Saffire Blue had the fire, Windy Point, Candora, Soap and More, and Voyageur are pricey. Am I secretly missing a gold mine? Not that I need more temptation...


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## Sharee

Ive seen these MPs... wouldnt these be okay for the skin? Especially if i add emolients to it?
it looks organic...
https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.ca/products/melt-pour-soap-bases/melt-and-pour-soap-base-nco.html


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## dibbles

I've never used that particular soap base, so I don't have any thing to add as far as that goes. As far as adding emollients to the base, this is from their blog about adding to_ their_ soap base https://www.newdirectionsaromatics....t-and-pour-soap-bases.html#add-melt-pour-soap

As you can see, you can add 1 tablespoon of liquid or melted oils per pound of soap base. You can add 1 teaspoon of a melted butter per pound of soap. Is that enough for what you want to achieve?


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## Sharee

dibbles said:


> I've never used that particular soap base, so I don't have any thing to add as far as that goes. As far as adding emollients to the base, this is from their blog about adding to_ their_ soap base https://www.newdirectionsaromatics....t-and-pour-soap-bases.html#add-melt-pour-soap
> 
> As you can see, you can add 1 tablespoon of liquid or melted oils per pound of soap base. You can add 1 teaspoon of a melted butter per pound of soap. Is that enough for what you want to achieve?



I wish I could hug you...This is very informative.  Do you think I could add additional stuff such as oats to this? 
Again...I see why its better to use a MP as its less drying. It says plainly"Cold process soaps usually contain less Glycerin than Melt and Pour soaps, thus they are more likely to be drying on the skin."


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## dibbles

Just scroll down on that list and read what is listed under exfoliant. I don’t know that M&P is less drying. That’s something you would have to determine for yourself. Everyone has different preferences for their own skin. I did M&P for several years before I got bored with it and tried CP. I never looked back.


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## math ace

I was strictly a melt and pour craft person until this year.  I ALWAYS enjoyed my Melt and Pour creating.  Melt and Pour soap is fun and easy.  It doesn't require a lot of extra material. I've showed 10 year olds how to make m & p soap.  I use SFIC Shea Butter or Aloe bases.  I, also,  really liked Stephenson's triple butter base.  My friends either LOVED or HATED the Stephenson triple butter because it feels like you can't totally rinse the oils off.  
The most common complaint about melt and pour bases is that they don't last long in the shower.

After year's of drooling of some of the swirls that CP soap is famous for, I decided to branch into that domain this year.  Suddenly, I had to deal with issues like how well a fragrance lasts (sticks) in the soap.  Let's not forget that there is the aspect that the fragrance can make the soap batter misbehave - rice, sieze, or accelerate.  In addition to fragrance issues, there is the storage aspect during the 4 to 6 week cure.  With CP soap, you have to be very careful during the soap making process so that you don't get injured from the lye.  The benefit to CP soap is that it produces a harder bar of soap that lasts longer in the shower.  

With m & p, you can easily create A bar of soap in the morning and enjoy it 24 hours later.  With CP soap, it is really hard to make batches smaller than a pound and it is 4 to 6 weeks before you can reap benefits of your work.


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## Marilyn Norgart

Sharee said:


> Cold process soaps usually contain less Glycerin than Melt and Pour soaps, thus they are more likely to be drying on the skin."


 I haven't used MP yet but it looks like people are saying MP is harsher


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## math ace

This is a couple of melt and pour soaps that I made yesterday.  You can create BEAUTIFUL things with melt and pour.  Dean Wilson has a lot of m & p videos to help you learn how to create some amazing soaps.


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## Marilyn Norgart

math ace said:


> This is a couple of melt and pour soaps that I made yesterday.  You can create BEAUTIFUL things with melt and pour.  Dean Wilson has a lot of m & p videos to help you learn how to create some amazing soaps. View attachment 41146



WOW


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## cmzaha

It is interesting that so many find m&p harsh. The bases we used made very nice feeling bars and I still use them often. PH is usually lower in m&p at least the bases my daughter used. I do know she tended to mix bases for some of her bars. I still use her marshmallow soaps that are just luxurious feeling and were made with m&p base.


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## shunt2011

Sharee said:


> Thank you guys for replying so quickly. Its much appreciated by a newbie. I figured id buy a mp goat one and add oats and shea butter and some essential oils to make it smell nice. Maybe an orange. If theres organic mps out now i still dont understand the popularity of cp if you can pretty much make mps just as natural now and its safer and faster anyway.



Just because you can get organic doesn't mean it's better than CP.  MP still has additives I don't want in my soap.  It's still not as natural and as for safe, it's only safer to make.  I personally don't care for MP soaps.  I don't like how they make my skin feel it feels too dry.  I much prefer my CP soaps that I'm able to formulate to my liking.   I do use MP for imbeds and do make a few here an there for my grandkids.  I also get much more enjoyment making CP than MP as it's therapeutic for me to formulate my soaps and then to design them.

It's absolutely a personal preference.  Nothing wrong with MP.


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## artemis

One question from the original post that I didn't see addressed (maybe I read to quickly) is: why do people say you have more control with CP. In case it's still needed-- the control you have with CP is what goes into making the soap itself. With MP, someone else has decided which oils (olive, coconut, etc) to use and much and this affects how the soap feels, how hard it is, how it lathers. With CP, you decide if you want to leave out the coconut oil, or if you want to use rice bran oil instead of olive, etc...


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## Sharee

Thank your for your replies! 
So i read that mp dont last long as  long in the shower. ., do the soap start to melt?
I read that mp tend to “ sweat”. Does that mean melt? 
I dont want to give a mp bar made that starts melting on someones counter or bath..



artemis said:


> One question from the original post that I didn't see addressed (maybe I read to quickly) is: why do people say you have more control with CP. In case it's still needed-- the control you have with CP is what goes into making the soap itself. With MP, someone else has decided which oils (olive, coconut, etc) to use and much and this affects how the soap feels, how hard it is, how it lathers. With CP, you decide if you want to leave out the coconut oil, or if you want to use rice bran oil instead of olive, etc...


I thought with mp you can add your own emollients anyway.


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## MGM

cmzaha said:


> It is interesting that so many find m&p harsh. The bases we used made very nice feeling bars and I still use them often. PH is usually lower in m&p at least the bases my daughter used. I do know she tended to mix bases for some of her bars. I still use her marshmallow soaps that are just luxurious feeling and were made with m&p base.


I wonder if people are buying low-quality M&P from hobby stores? That might have something to do with it.


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## Obsidian

Sharee said:


> I thought with mp you can add your own emollients anyway.



Only a small amount, like a tsp per pound of base.
Do you know what else is in the m&p you are buying? Can you control the oils or surfactants used? That's what is meant that you can't control what is in it.

Its true that it doesn't last as long as cp and cp doesn't last as long as store bought. 

It by nature is a bit softer then other soap and it simple washes away faster. If used with a proper soap dish and allowed to dry between uses it won't melt.
Sweating is where is attracts moisture from the air and it beads up on the soap like sweat on skin. Its particularly bad in high humidity.

I suggest you buy just a small amount of base, a pound or two and get familiar with it and how it behaves.


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## jcandleattic

Sharee said:


> Thank your for your replies!
> So i read that mp dont last long as  long in the shower. ., do the soap start to melt?
> I read that mp tend to “ sweat”. Does that mean melt?
> I dont want to give a mp bar made that starts melting on someones counter or bath..


As with all soap, if not stored in between uses properly, it will dissolve more quickly if not put in a draining soap dish. All soap M&P, CP. HP, etc, will dissolve more quickly if let to be set in water in between uses. It will all depend on how the user stores the soaps as to how long it will last. 
Sweating means that the moisture/glycerin will sweat out of the soap, not that it will dissolve quicker. M&P is definitely more prone to sweating than other methods of soapmaking, but all can sweat. 

IMO M&P soapmaking is not better or worse than any other method of soapmaking. It will just come down to what you decide you want to make, and what you want the outcome of your soap to be. 
That being said, I personally have not found an M&P soap that my skin agrees with. It is much too drying and harsh for my skin and I need to slather with an after oil skin routine and lotion if I use it.


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## Sharee

I saw an  organic base on Bramble Berry the ingredients are  listed below..
 If I was to make a bar of soap for somebody would I have to list all of these ingredients? That would be a biiiig label.
 And are you actually required to list ingredients? I buy from someone currently from the flea market and she sells online and there is no labels on her stuff.

Ingredients (Common Name): Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Palm Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Propylene Glycol (of vegetable origin), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Oat protein (conditioner)
Ingredients (INCI Name): Organic Cocos Nucifera Oil, Organic Elaeis Guineensis Oil, Glycerin, Aqua/Water/Eau, Sodium Hydroxide, Sorbitol, Propylene Glycol, Sorbitan Oleate, Avena Sativa Protein Extract


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## artemis

Sharee said:


> I thought with mp you can add your own emollients anyway.



Yes, but... If my skin doesn't like oils used to make the soap base, then the tiny amount of shea butter you can add isn't really going to help that. Neither will honey or oatmeal.


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## jcandleattic

Sharee said:


> I saw an  organic base on Bramble Berry the ingredients are  listed below..
> If I was to make a bar of soap for somebody would I have to list all of these ingredients? That would be a biiiig label.
> And are you actually required to list ingredients? I buy from someone currently from the flea market and she sells online and there is no labels on her stuff.
> 
> Ingredients (Common Name): Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Palm Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Propylene Glycol (of vegetable origin), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Oat protein (conditioner)
> Ingredients (INCI Name): Organic Cocos Nucifera Oil, Organic Elaeis Guineensis Oil, Glycerin, Aqua/Water/Eau, Sodium Hydroxide, Sorbitol, Propylene Glycol, Sorbitan Oleate, Avena Sativa Protein Extract


With M&P it's a grey area. Some M&P is considered cosmetic, which would mean that yes, you would have to list out all ingredients, including any ingredients you would add to the base.
IF the M&P base you purchase is not considered a cosmetic, and you are making no claims about it other than "it will get you clean" then, no, you wouldn't need to list the ingredients.
But you would have to make sure the base is not considered a cosmetic. I *_think_* organic type bases such as the one Bramble Berry carries is not considered a cosmetic, but I'm not sure.



> I buy from someone currently from the flea market and she sells online and there is no labels on her stuff.


That doesn't mean she is doing it right.


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## Sharee

jcandleattic said:


> With M&P it's a grey area. Some M&P is considered cosmetic, which would mean that yes, you would have to list out all ingredients, including any ingredients you would add to the base.
> IF the M&P base you purchase is not considered a cosmetic, and you are making no claims about it other than "it will get you clean" then, no, you wouldn't need to list the ingredients.
> But you would have to make sure the base is not considered a cosmetic. I *_think_* organic type bases such as the one Bramble Berry carries is not considered a cosmetic, but I'm not sure.
> 
> 
> That doesn't mean she is doing it right.


So if i understand correctly cosmetic grade list...otherwise...no.  Do you know of any MPs that are non-cosmetic grade ? 
Also would a cp be considered cosmetic ?


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## jcandleattic

Sharee said:


> So if i understand correctly cosmetic grade list...otherwise...no. Do you know of any MPs that are non-cosmetic grade ?


I don't know. You'd probably have to check with the supplier. 



Sharee said:


> Also would a cp be considered cosmetic ?


This would depend on the claims you make. If you just claim it as soap, it's non-cosmetic. 
If you claim it will make you look better, will make your skin feel better, claim anything other than it gets you clean, it then becomes either a cosmetic or a drug. 

Of course, I just now see that you are in Canada, and I am specifically talking about the FDA regulations in the United States. 
Canadian regulations and labeling laws might be different and I'm not sure what those laws are.


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## Sharee

Your right.. i did


jcandleattic said:


> I don't know. You'd probably have to check with the supplier.
> 
> 
> This would depend on the claims you make. If you just claim it as soap, it's non-cosmetic.
> If you claim it will make you look better, will make your skin feel better, claim anything other than it gets you clean, it then becomes either a cosmetic or a drug.
> 
> Of course, I just now see that you are in Canada, and I am specifically talking about the FDA regulations in the United States.
> Canadian regulations and labeling laws might be different and I'm not sure what those laws are.



your right! I didnt think of that. Thank you guys so much! This website is amazing! 
I want to try the daniel guys wave design. So pretty!


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## Dahila

MGM said:


> Who though? Saffire Blue had the fire, Windy Point, Candora, Soap and More, and Voyageur are pricey. Am I secretly missing a gold mine? Not that I need more temptation...


Saffire blue is out , not way there is many more, with free shipping.  Send me a pm so I put links for you


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## Abeltran

Here's my silly analogy of CP vs. MP... CP is like the blank canvas of soapmaking. You start with nothing but your raw ingredients and beginning from scratch, you make soap (ie: Paint your picture on that blank canvas). MP is like those beautiful coloring books you see, where the picture has already been drawn for you, but now it's up to you to color it in, use your creativity to tranform it into something beautifully unique. Which method is right for you just depends on what type of artist you'd like to be (blank canvas vs. starting with a foundation), and many times, the type of artist you choose to be, later evolves into exploring other methods! I started out making CP & RTCP, which evolved into piping & making soap frosting for hightop soaps, which evolved into CPOP (well, actually, CPOP was just something I always did with most of my "low top" batches), which evolved into HP, which evolved into SBHP/SJHP, which evolved into making my own MP bases (MP bases are made via HP, just with an added step), which evolved into MP... My point is, I truly love ALL methods of soapmaking (and employ all of them regularly), and even though each one is uniquely different from the others, the end result is the same: A great bar of handmade soap that you're proud of! That's what soapmaking is about, and there's no "better" or "superior" method... It's whatever gives you the end result that YOU want... A finished product that brings you joy & a feeling of accomplishment! That being said, I've never felt a MP soap that felt like CP, HP, etc. MP is uniquely MP, and there's nothing wrong with that! Even "LCP" ("Like Cold Process") MP bases, are still unmistakably MP, but I've met a lot of INCREDIBLE MP soap artists in my day who's soaps were positively FANTASTIC! And I can truly say that about ALL methods of soapmaking too... I've been lucky enough to have met some really amazing artisans who excell in their craft & preferred soapmaking method(s)! So my best advice would be to read up on all soapmaking methods (each have their own very unique processes), and find that one that speaks to the kind of soap artist that you want to be! Start there, but know that you're not limited to staying there if something else appeals to you later. Soak up as much knowledge as you possibly can, become a sponge, and surround yourself with fellow crafters who will take you under their wing (there's SO MANY of those wonderful folks out there!). Many begin with MP because it really IS great for beginners! All MP bases are NOT created equal though, and some work better, or are better suited, for different things. For example, the MP base I make & use for making smaller embeds that will adorn the tops of bigger CP bars, isn't the base I'd want to use for a full MP loaf, where I may need it to stay more fluid & workable for a longer period of time). So if you decide MP is the best starting point for you, experiment with different bases until you find the one(s) that works best for your specific needs, and produce the results you want. And then get ready for the addiction, because HOLY MOLY, does it becomes ADDICTING! Best of luck to you on your soapmaking journey! You'll do great at whatever you set your mind to!


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## Sharee

Abeltran said:


> Here's my silly analogy of CP vs. MP... CP is like the blank canvas of soapmaking. You start with nothing but your raw ingredients and beginning from scratch, you make soap (ie: Paint your picture on that blank canvas). MP is like those beautiful coloring books you see, where the picture has already been drawn for you, but now it's up to you to color it in, use your creativity to tranform it into something beautifully unique. Which method is right for you just depends on what type of artist you'd like to be (blank canvas vs. starting with a foundation), and many times, the type of artist you choose to be, later evolves into exploring other methods! I started out making CP & RTCP, which evolved into piping & making soap frosting for hightop soaps, which evolved into CPOP (well, actually, CPOP was just something I always did with most of my "low top" batches), which evolved into HP, which evolved into SBHP/SJHP, which evolved into making my own MP bases (MP bases are made via HP, just with an added step), which evolved into MP... My point is, I truly love ALL methods of soapmaking (and employ all of them regularly), and even though each one is uniquely different from the others, the end result is the same: A great bar of handmade soap that you're proud of! That's what soapmaking is about, and there's no "better" or "superior" method... It's whatever gives you the end result that YOU want... A finished product that brings you joy & a feeling of accomplishment! That being said, I've never felt a MP soap that felt like CP, HP, etc. MP is uniquely MP, and there's nothing wrong with that! Even "LCP" ("Like Cold Process") MP bases, are still unmistakably MP, but I've met a lot of INCREDIBLE MP soap artists in my day who's soaps were positively FANTASTIC! And I can truly say that about ALL methods of soapmaking too... I've been lucky enough to have met some really amazing artisans who excell in their craft & preferred soapmaking method(s)! So my best advice would be to read up on all soapmaking methods (each have their own very unique processes), and find that one that speaks to the kind of soap artist that you want to be! Start there, but know that you're not limited to staying there if something else appeals to you later. Soak up as much knowledge as you possibly can, become a sponge, and surround yourself with fellow crafters who will take you under their wing (there's SO MANY of those wonderful folks out there!). Many begin with MP because it really IS great for beginners! All MP bases are NOT created equal though, and some work better, or are better suited, for different things. For example, the MP base I make & use for making smaller embeds that will adorn the tops of bigger CP bars, isn't the base I'd want to use for a full MP loaf, where I may need it to stay more fluid & workable for a longer period of time). So if you decide MP is the best starting point for you, experiment with different bases until you find the one(s) that works best for your specific needs, and produce the results you want. And then get ready for the addiction, because HOLY MOLY, does it becomes ADDICTING! Best of luck to you on your soapmaking journey! You'll do great at whatever you set your mind to!


 
Thank you guys for taking me under your wing!  I was in a bad accident a few years ago..lost my nursing career.  This is something now that I actually feel some passion back.   I’ve been listening to you guys for three days studying on YouTube and wandering around Michael’s . I’ve always had a good imagination and I for art. I already have the name and I am going to get it trademarked. Knowing I can make something beautiful with my hands and to be able to give that to somebody AND maybe make a business out of it..is what ive really needed these last few years. Thanks everyone for your kindness and generosity.


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## cedarstar

Sharee said:


> I saw an  organic base on Bramble Berry the ingredients are  listed below..
> If I was to make a bar of soap for somebody would I have to list all of these ingredients? That would be a biiiig label.
> And are you actually required to list ingredients? I buy from someone currently from the flea market and she sells online and there is no labels on her stuff.
> 
> Ingredients (Common Name): Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Palm Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Propylene Glycol (of vegetable origin), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Oat protein (conditioner)
> Ingredients (INCI Name): Organic Cocos Nucifera Oil, Organic Elaeis Guineensis Oil, Glycerin, Aqua/Water/Eau, Sodium Hydroxide, Sorbitol, Propylene Glycol, Sorbitan Oleate, Avena Sativa Protein Extract



In Canada soap is a cosmetic so yes, you have to label all ingredients you use, including all the ingredients in your colourant. It can't be just mica or red, etc. You could choose to list either the common name or the INCI. If you choose to label using the common name then your label ingredients must also be listed in french. The front of your label; product name, directions, etc must also be bilingual. Here is a good place to start. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-can...dustry-professionals/labelling-cosmetics.html I too started with melt and pour and went to cp. Now I am hooked. I find my cp bars to be much nicer on the skin than melt and pour.  Also, if someone at a flea market was selling without a label and/or sells online then she is going against Canadian laws and it will be a matter of time before it catches up to her. All cosmetic products sold in Canada along with being labelled correctly must be registered with Health Canada. A cosmetic notification for must be submitted for every product. It's a lot of work but worth it. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-can...-safety/cosmetics/notification-cosmetics.html 
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-can...tly-asked-questions-cosmetic-regulations.html


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## Dahila

Cedarstar you covered it all.   However most people I know soapmakers they do not bother.  We also have A Canadian guild and membership and insurance is very affordable.  The discounts with every supplier in Canada is also something not to overlook


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## Relle

Sharee said:


> Thank you guys for taking me under your wing!  I was in a bad accident a few years ago..lost my nursing career.  This is something now that I actually feel some passion back.   I’ve been listening to you guys for three days studying on YouTube and wandering around Michael’s . I’ve always had a good imagination and I for art. I already have the name and I am going to get it trademarked. Knowing I can make something beautiful with my hands and to be able to give that to somebody AND maybe make a business out of it..is what ive really needed these last few years. Thanks everyone for your kindness and generosity.



Sharee if you intend selling you might like to read this link 
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/are-you-ready-to-sell-your-soap.16002/


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## artemis

Sharee said:


> So if i understand correctly, cosmetic grade list...otherwise...no.



In my opinion, whether it's required or not, listing ingredients is the responsible thing to do. As a potential customer, I want to know what is in that soap so I know I won't have a reaction to anything. Some people want to see a list to know if will work with their lifestyle (vegan, palm-free, etc).


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## cedarstar

artemis said:


> In my opinion, whether it's required or not, listing ingredients is the responsible thing to do. As a potential customer, I want to know what is in that soap so I know I won't have a reaction to anything. Some people want to see a list to know if will work with their lifestyle (vegan, palm-free, etc).



I agree completely. I would not purchase a product without knowing ingredients. In Canada essential oils only have to be listed as "parfum", the same as fragrance oils and after learning about essential oil safety I find that this can be dangerous to the consumer. If I use essential oils I label each one and then label fo as parfum.


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## cerelife

Per the title of your thread "Melt and pour just as good as cold process":
As other have said it's really a matter of personal preference and your own definition of 'good' soap.
I noticed in the replies that someone mentioned art as an analogy of the difference between the two styles and someone a few years ago used baking as an analogy on a similar thread, and my thoughts are along a similar line.
M&P is 'paint by numbers' while CP is starting with a blank canvas.
M&P is boxed cake mix while CP is making a cake from scratch.
There's nothing wrong with doing it either way, and you can most certainly dress up that 'cake from a box' and make it totally gorgeous!
You mentioned that you just don't understand the popularity of CP when you can purchase 'natural' MP bases.
I can only speak for myself, but anything that I offer as my own 'creation' will be just that: something that I personally created from scratch. 
I love taking those "Wine and Art" classes where they walk you through blending your oil paints and applying them to your pre-sketched canvas AND they encourage you to take artistic license to 'make it your own', but it's still a pre-sketched canvas.
My mother gave me a fantastic recipe for boxed cake mix mixed with a ton of other stuff that tastes exactly like a 'from-scratch' cake from the bakery - but the fact remains that I didn't create the recipe for the cake mix itself.
Does that make these things bad? Of course not. But they aren't _mine_.
A huge part of the satisfaction that I get from making soap and having my own business is the knowledge that I created these soap recipes!!


----------



## Sharee

I see such beautiful recipes out there. Cakes and doughnuts for example. All with 
Mp. I just know anything made by us soap makers will be better than the oil of olay bar mass produced in the stores. Im in canada so rules are much different up here it seems. I never see ingredients on products at markets etc. Im not even near selling. I just want to make and give some away to our customers ( we already run a business) before i do anything further. I just want something to do.. thats my own.. not my hs.


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## thethingswellmake

In most countries (like here in Spain), I think soap is considered cosmetic and needs to have the ingredients labeled. USA is a huge exception when it comes to laws for cosmetic formulation in general. (No obligation to do microbial testing, etc.)
I'd also like to point out that a huge difference between M&P and CP soaps is that for the soaps to be smooth when melted, they need to have ingredients added that are avoided by many natural-minded people (like propylene glycol).
Also, many M&P "Soaps" aren't really even soap, but are instead syndet bars. 
I have no problem with them (on the other hand, I don't really ever use them either) - but a lot of people don't realize it and think they are using/buying "natural soap."


----------



## bookreader451

The best thing about melt and pour is you can make gifts quickly if that is your aim.  

I had a pig roast a couple of weeks ago and everyone got a pink peppermint pig soap.  I made 50 of them in a couple of hours and everyone thought they were cute favors.  

I have added shea butter, honey, oatmeal, evening primrose oil, vitamin E, retinol serum and other additives to melt and pour.  I have used clays and activated charcoal.  There is a lot you can do with melt and pour and all the soap I give away people like and appreciate.    

I don't know about Canada but since I just give my stuff away I don't label anything.  If you are gifting these to customers you may not have to label but I would make sure about that.  

Just start with a good melt and pour base and let your imagination go.


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## Sharee

I’m definitely starting off with a Mp. To much risk with the cp at this point plus it looks so finicky. I want to make designs and it seems you can do all that. I want to make this dolphin soap. I tried uploading a photo to get an idea of how it was done but the site wouldnt upload it.


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## bookreader451

Sharee said:


> I’m definitely starting off with a Mp. To much risk with the cp at this point plus it looks so finicky. I want to make designs and it seems you can do all that. I want to make this dolphin soap. I tried uploading a photo to get an idea of how it was done but the site wouldnt upload it.


Amazon has a cute dolphin molds.   You can use those as embeds in a ocean looking soap.  

here are some ideas to help https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/seascape-melt-pour-soap-tutorial/

https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/shark-attack-melt-pour/


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## Sharee

I saw this on  Brambleberry. 
Is it possible to do a mp if you move quickly before each layer hardens? 

https://www.brambleberry.com/in-the...S000181.html?cgid=3-cp_project_studio#start=4


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## bookreader451

Sharee said:


> I saw this on  Brambleberry.
> Is it possible to do a mp if you move quickly before each layer hardens?
> 
> https://www.brambleberry.com/in-the...S000181.html?cgid=3-cp_project_studio#start=4


You can do that but you need the column molds and it won't be as textured,  MP makes smooth straight layers.  You need to let each layer harden enough to hold the embed  and be pretty solid before you can pour the next layer.  I usually wait until it is at least 90 degrees or less.  You need to make sure the embed is sprayed well with 91% rubbing alcohol before it is inserted and you need to spray each layer with rubbing alcohol before pouring the next.


----------



## Sharee

bookreader451 said:


> You can do that but you need the column molds and it won't be as textured,  MP makes smooth straight layers.  You need to let each layer harden enough to hold the embed  and be pretty solid before you can pour the next layer.  I usually wait until it is at least 90 degrees or less.  You need to make sure the embed is sprayed well with 91% rubbing alcohol before it is inserted and you need to spray each layer with rubbing alcohol before pouring the next.


Thank you! Another challenge im up for!


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## earlene

Ethically, IMO, if you own a business (even if it is not a soap making business) and you are giving away a product to your customers that you yourself make, you should definitely label in properly.  Especially in Canada or any country where soap has strict regulatory requirements.  I believe it is the best practice.  And since you are planning to sell someday, why not start getting the labeling and packaging process in order now?


----------



## Sharee

earlene said:


> Ethically, IMO, if you own a business (even if it is not a soap making business) and you are giving away a product to your customers that you yourself make, you should definitely label in properly.  Especially in Canada or any country where soap has strict regulatory requirements.  I believe it is the best practice.  And since you are planning to sell someday, why not start getting the labeling and packaging process in order now?


I totally agree and that is why I am so grateful that you guys gave me that link to that label site and that paper site they are going to be very useful!   Since my nursing career was taken away I’ve been very depressed just knowing that I have something for me makes me very happy this is the best thing I found in a very long time  to be able to Make people smile again.


----------



## Shirlene L

I usually do CP soap.  But had a request for M&P one day.  Being focused on health... I started researching & was VERY discouraged with the discovery of all the chemicals that most M&P had in them.  But  T H E N  I discovered that BB & WSSP (& a couple other resources) ALSO offer a* Clear PG Free Soap Base! * And it has far less of the other M&P chemicals in it too!  So IDK if it was THAT particular chemical (PG) - or all the other ones that bar also omits - but the customers I have that seem to be allergic (or react) to the regular M&P soaps could use it without a problem!  So I thought that was a COOL discovery (& worth sharing)!  
ps - I LOVE THIS GROUP!


----------



## Sharee

Shirlene L said:


> I usually do CP soap.  But had a request for M&P one day.  Being focused on health... I started researching & was VERY discouraged with the discovery of all the chemicals that most M&P had in them.  But  T H E N  I discovered that BB & WSSP (& a couple other resources) ALSO offer a* Clear PG Free Soap Base! * And it has far less of the other M&P chemicals in it too! So IDK if it was THAT particular chemical (PG) - or all the other ones that bar also omits - but the customers I have that seem to be allergic (or react) to the regular M&P soaps could use it without a problem!  So I thought that was a COOL discovery (& worth sharing)!
> ps - I LOVE THIS GROUP!


What is wssp? Im a  newbie..


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## Shirlene L

What is wssp? Im a  newbie..
- - - - - - - - - - - 
Wholesale Supplies Plus 

https://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/


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## Sharee

Shirlene L said:


> I usually do CP soap.  But had a request for M&P one day.  Being focused on health... I started researching & was VERY discouraged with the discovery of all the chemicals that most M&P had in them.  But  T H E N  I discovered that BB & WSSP (& a couple other resources) ALSO offer a* Clear PG Free Soap Base! * And it has far less of the other M&P chemicals in it too! So IDK if it was THAT particular chemical (PG) - or all the other ones that bar also omits - but the customers I have that seem to be allergic (or react) to the regular M&P soaps could use it without a problem!  So I thought that was a COOL discovery (& worth sharing)!
> ps - I LOVE THIS GROUP!


Found this as well 

https://www.amazon.com/Clear-Glycerin-Melt-Pour-Organic/dp/B00BSYDOJQ


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## cmzaha

Abeltran said:


> Here's my silly analogy of CP vs. MP... CP is like the blank canvas of soapmaking. You start with nothing but your raw ingredients and beginning from scratch, you make soap (ie: Paint your picture on that blank canvas). MP is like those beautiful coloring books you see, where the picture has already been drawn for you, but now it's up to you to color it in, use your creativity to tranform it into something beautifully unique. Which method is right for you just depends on what type of artist you'd like to be (blank canvas vs. starting with a foundation), and many times, the type of artist you choose to be, later evolves into exploring other methods! I started out making CP & RTCP, which evolved into piping & making soap frosting for hightop soaps, which evolved into CPOP (well, actually, CPOP was just something I always did with most of my "low top" batches), which evolved into HP, which evolved into SBHP/SJHP, which evolved into making my own MP bases (MP bases are made via HP, just with an added step), which evolved into MP... My point is, I truly love ALL methods of soapmaking (and employ all of them regularly), and even though each one is uniquely different from the others, the end result is the same: A great bar of handmade soap that you're proud of! That's what soapmaking is about, and there's no "better" or "superior" method... It's whatever gives you the end result that YOU want... A finished product that brings you joy & a feeling of accomplishment! That being said, I've never felt a MP soap that felt like CP, HP, etc. MP is uniquely MP, and there's nothing wrong with that! Even "LCP" ("Like Cold Process") MP bases, are still unmistakably MP, but I've met a lot of INCREDIBLE MP soap artists in my day who's soaps were positively FANTASTIC! And I can truly say that about ALL methods of soapmaking too... I've been lucky enough to have met some really amazing artisans who excell in their craft & preferred soapmaking method(s)! So my best advice would be to read up on all soapmaking methods (each have their own very unique processes), and find that one that speaks to the kind of soap artist that you want to be! Start there, but know that you're not limited to staying there if something else appeals to you later. Soak up as much knowledge as you possibly can, become a sponge, and surround yourself with fellow crafters who will take you under their wing (there's SO MANY of those wonderful folks out there!). Many begin with MP because it really IS great for beginners! All MP bases are NOT created equal though, and some work better, or are better suited, for different things. For example, the MP base I make & use for making smaller embeds that will adorn the tops of bigger CP bars, isn't the base I'd want to use for a full MP loaf, where I may need it to stay more fluid & workable for a longer period of time). So if you decide MP is the best starting point for you, experiment with different bases until you find the one(s) that works best for your specific needs, and produce the results you want. And then get ready for the addiction, because HOLY MOLY, does it becomes ADDICTING! Best of luck to you on your soapmaking journey! You'll do great at whatever you set your mind to!


You covered it all very well. My daughter is epileptic with rheumatoid arthritis and it simply was not safe for her to make lye-based soap. She used several different bases and even mixed some to get the feel and look she wanted. She created some very gorgeous soaps that took much more time than my cp soap. She used very good bases and some worked better for my eczema and for her than my soaps and I use very little CO or PKO. Not everyone can use lye based soaps. Soap is a wash off that is not going to be on the skin long enough to absorb. Remember our skin is a great barrier. I love mp soaps as much as my soaps. When my daughter was selling she went through over a ton of soap base, and that was just the soap base from Essentials by Catalina. She also purchased from a few others. In So Cal where I live we have a company that makes gorgeous mp and gel candles. They even have several patents relating to the products they make. So the mp soap business can be lucrative. I just do not have the patience to fuss with it. As for using different bases, she worked for almost a year trying to perfect her marshmallow soaps. and finally found out only one base worked. FYI B&B tried to copy her marshmallow and their recipe is nowhere near my daughters. So there can be reasons to use more than one base.

I have never understood the issue with propylene glycol. It acts as a humectant. It is put in antifreeze because it will not kill animals if they drink it as the old antifreeze did. It makes a safer antifreeze. It is also used in foods to help retain moisture and flavor.


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## lsg

Yes Shirlene L, Wholesale Supplies Plus


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## Kirine

Sharee said:


> I’m definitely starting off with a Mp. To much risk with the cp at this point plus it looks so finicky. I want to make designs and it seems you can do all that. I want to make this dolphin soap. I tried uploading a photo to get an idea of how it was done but the site wouldnt upload it.


The only thing you *may* have issues with in MP is swirls, which have to be done at low temp, with reheating.  Watch the flashpoints if you are using fragrance or essential oils for scent.


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## Sharee

Kirine said:


> The only thing you *may* have issues with in MP is swirls, which have to be done at low temp, with reheating.  Watch the flashpoints if you are using fragrance or essential oils for scent.


I’m watching videos on how to do itp swirls. Id like a wave for the dolphin mold.. this video shows closest for that. It seems put three different soaps in three different buckets.. put in your colours.. then transfer it to one bucket then to the mold. basically i think youd have to move quickly before the mold starts to harden. But it could be done i think..


----------



## MGM

This is a really good example of a big difference between m&p and CP: this video is of CP and would be next to impossible in m&p. Stick with M&p' strengths, such as solid, straight lines. Have you made many M&P loaves yet, to get a feel for them?


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## Sharee

I like a challenge so I think I will try this with an MP ..
 nope not yet.  I’m trying to pin down the best thermometer the best tools the best cake moulds ..


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## MGM

Honestly, I might do quite the opposite.. Get some M&P, gently heat it in the micro on low power, colour it, scent it, pour it into a simple mould, any shape, really. You can always cut it after. Research is great, but you need at least a first foray until you create challenges that no one has achieved....


----------



## bookreader451

Sharee said:


> I’m watching videos on how to do itp swirls. Id like a wave for the dolphin mold.. this video shows closest for that. It seems put three different soaps in three different buckets.. put in your colours.. then transfer it to one bucket then to the mold. basically i think youd have to move quickly before the mold starts to harden. But it could be done i think..



Melt and pour will not swirl like that no matter what you do.  You need to understand the nature of MP and the strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## Carly B

Sharee, I made my first cold processed soap today after doing M&P and rebatch for years.  MGM is right--you need to try how it works, first.  M&P is much more fluid--the colors don't swirl, they blend.  Think about it like pouring two colors of jello--they aren't going to stay separate until they have hardened up--you try to swirl cherry jello and lemon jello and you'll get an orange colored  cherry lemonade flavor.

If you want to see some really cool things to do with M&P, look on youtube for Koala Soap videos.  I learned some M&P stuff to do with color that I had never even thought about before. It was very inspiring.


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## earlene

Sharee said:


> I’m watching videos on how to do itp swirls. Id like a wave for the dolphin mold.. this video shows closest for that. It seems put three different soaps in three different buckets.. put in your colours.. then transfer it to one bucket then to the mold. basically i think youd have to move quickly before the mold starts to harden. But it could be done i think..




*Sharee*, I have seen actual MP soaps with similar to CP techniques swirls, but how they are achieved was ususally quite different than the CP swirling technique.  So you might have to go about it slightly differently to get the same look.  With MP, when the soap is too hot, and you pour the the colors together, they tend to flow together and get muddy.  So when you try the technique in the video of the Zig Zag Cosmic Swirl I think you'll find it works best if you pour double handed with fairly thick MP base.  See the first soap in this link for a double-handed pour technique: 

Here is a Soap Queen video about swirling MP soap. This one is poured in layers, using a spoon to get the swirl as the layers are built:


This one is built in layers as well with different colors poured as a drop swirl. The temperature and how 'set up' each layer is between pours is crucial to maintain color integrity with MP soap.  

Here's one with waves in MP, but as a loaf mold, so probably not exactly what you are looking for.  Still pretty nice end result:


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## melinda48

Dahila said:


> I am with Obsidian,  I bought few soaps (M&P) on shows but all of them went to garbage, not for my sensitive skin


We find that our cp soaps sell well but  folks don’t “warm to” m&p at all.


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## SoapySuds

I won’t touch MP with a ten foot pole.

When the bases have stuff like sls, sles, sucrose (sugar) as a major ingredient, among alcohols and salt... that stuff makes my skin dry out and itchy and my hair fall out.

CP naturally has glycerin in it and is made from nice oils, not petroleum.

Come to the dark side, CP is amazing!


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## Sultana

SoapySuds said:


> I won’t touch MP with a ten foot pole.
> 
> When the bases have stuff like sls, sles, sucrose (sugar) as a major ingredient, among alcohols and salt... that stuff makes my skin dry out and itchy and my hair fall out.
> 
> CP naturally has glycerin in it and is made from nice oils, not petroleum.
> 
> Come to the dark side, CP is amazing!




Not all MP bases have those ingredients in them. The base that SFIC puts out for instance is a great MP base without all the chemicals that some manufacturers have


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## SoapySuds

Sultana said:


> Not all MP bases have those ingredients in them. The base that SFIC puts out for instance is a great MP base without all the chemicals that some manufacturers have



Will it cost me an arm and a leg? I really need them both.


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## Sultana

SoapySuds said:


> Will it cost me an arm and a leg? I really need them both.


They do have a minimum if you buy from them directly. Works out to be about $500.00. Brambleberry I believe sells their base. I am sure there are others but don't have names. Maybe a goggle search can provide more names or members of the group can.


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## SoapySuds

Sultana said:


> They do have a minimum if you buy from them directly. Works out to be about $500.00. Brambleberry I believe sells their base. I am sure there are others but don't have names. Maybe a goggle search can provide more names or members of the group can.



Like I said, I need both of my arms and legs. I've got way less money into my soap than that... I mean, way more soap supplies to make more soap than $500 of MP base will provide me with. Brambleberry wants my first born child. I have told them no, repeatedly.


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## shunt2011

Sultana said:


> Not all MP bases have those ingredients in them. The base that SFIC puts out for instance is a great MP base without all the chemicals that some manufacturers have



Most of them have propylene glycol in them.  Which I've had people turn their noses up at.  Even SFIC.


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## Sultana

shunt2011 said:


> Most of them have propylene glycol in them.  Which I've had people turn their noses up at.  Even SFIC.


SFIC has a base that is propylene glycol free as well. You just have to buy more to meet the minimum.



SoapySuds said:


> Like I said, I need both of my arms and legs. I've got way less money into my soap than that... I mean, way more soap supplies to make more soap than $500 of MP base will provide me with. Brambleberry wants my first born child. I have told them no, repeatedly.



Sorry, like everything else in life I guess you get what you pay for. Soaping is a lot of fun whether it be for hobby or you are running a soaping business and there is never enough money to buy all the great soaping and B &B ingredients, molds etc that you want. If there was I would need additional warehouse space lol


----------



## JoeyJ

math ace said:


> This is a couple of melt and pour soaps that I made yesterday.  You can create BEAUTIFUL things with melt and pour.  Dean Wilson has a lot of m & p videos to help you learn how to create some amazing soaps. View attachment 41146


Dean has just started uploading a heap of new videos - very clever guy.
Those soaps are stunning! perfectly coloured!
Sorry to say, Melt and Pour and Cold Process are nothing like each other, but each has its own unique advantages and uses, and whoever crafts and creates with either are worthy to be called "artists".
My shock experience with drying qualities of SFIC clear melt and pour...I remelted a heap of Melt and Pour scraps down to a delicious chocolatey syrup to pour in to icecream cone molds, it was drippy and messy like melt and pour is...always going setting up before youre finished pouring, and I was constantly washing the spills off my hands. The next day my hands were so dry like I have never seen them ever before! and three days later my fingertips still have scales.


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## SoapySuds

Sultana said:


> Sorry, like everything else in life I guess you get what you pay for. Soaping is a lot of fun whether it be for hobby or you are running a soaping business and there is never enough money to buy all the great soaping and B &B ingredients, molds etc that you want. If there was I would need additional warehouse space lol



I can purchase high quality oils from other suppliers and get them at a much lower price. Jewards is reasonable compared to brambleberry, and they're on the high end. They also carry MP soap base.

There are suppliers with great silicone molds at a lesser price than BB.

If two suppliers are purchasing their products from the same source, but one is astronomically higher than the other and has a purple and white banner... sometimes you just pay for pretty packaging. The substance is the same.

Snake oil is always better from the person who knows all about it, I guess. 

I still won't purchase MP soap.


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## SunRiseArts

math ace said:


> This is a couple of melt and pour soaps that I made yesterday.  You can create BEAUTIFUL things with melt and pour.  Dean Wilson has a lot of m & p videos to help you learn how to create some amazing soaps. View attachment 41146



Gorgeous  I personally do not find them harsh, and way better than any commercial soap.  I love how one can be very creative with MP, so I am a fan.

They l also IMO retain scent better, and are great for gift giving.


----------



## cmzaha

SoapySuds said:


> I won’t touch MP with a ten foot pole.
> 
> When the bases have stuff like sls, sles, sucrose (sugar) as a major ingredient, among alcohols and salt... that stuff makes my skin dry out and itchy and my hair fall out.
> 
> CP naturally has glycerin in it and is made from nice oils, not petroleum.
> 
> Come to the dark side, CP is amazing!


To be fair, there are some very nice M&P bases available and not all people can use lye-based soaps. We are all entitled to our opinions but there is no harm in using m&p and some very creative soaps are made with it. A poorly made bar of soap can cause skin irritation and a bar of lye-based soap can come closer to causing hair to fall out than an actual syndet m&p bar will. Actually most m&p bases are no longer actual syndet anymore only the ultra-clear bases. I do happen to know people that have to use syndet bars. Essentials by Catalina happen to make a very nice clear and ultra-clear base that is made by them. Not all bases are made the same and propylene glycol is used as a humectant and used in antifreeze because it does not kill animals if they happen to drink it if some have leaked on the ground. Some things get a bad rap that does not necessarily deserve it. No, I have no intention of starting an argument here, this is just my opinion.


----------



## Adobehead

I used M&P successfully for the first 3 years, then I changed to cold process only.  The M&P was very commerically successful and it was fun to do.  And it smelled great with the Essential Oils I used.  I put in some jojoba oil as a "superfat" idea and it never bothered my sensitive skin.  

Still, nothing like stirring up my own formula, I don't use packaged food or pudding mix, etc.  Same thing, I like to do it the hard way!  But I admit, I would like to make a little bit of it the way I used to, it was so pretty.


----------



## math ace

SunRiseArts said:


> Gorgeous  I personally do not find them harsh, and way better than any commercial soap.  I love how one can be very creative with MP, so I am a fan.
> 
> Also IMO they retain scent better, and are great for gift giving.



YES INDEED!  I was able to use EVERY SINGLE SCENT in Melt and Pour.  For instance, I LOVE florals which are notoriously naughty in CP.   Additionally,   I like fruity smells like STRAWBERRY... Oh wait, very few strawberry based fragrances survive the CP process. 

As far as scent lasting, I am using a bar of M & P soap that I made a year ago, scented with Spearment EO and it is totally delicious.  Meanwhile, I've spent the last 6 months testing fragrances from various suppliers trying to locate fragrances that will last the at least 4 months in CP soap.  I'm averaging 20% of the fragrances that I try being winners in CP at the 4 month mark.  Whereas, all the fragrances,  100% of the fragrances, work in M&P.  Not to mention,  I have to use TWICE the fragrance oil in CP soap. 

At the end of the day,  there are some major POSITIVES to working with M & P soap.  This is ESPECIALLY true if your goal is
1.)    Have a fun and practical craft outlet
2.)   Start the hobby without investing a ton of money in supplies. 
3.)   Be able to produce something that can be used within a few days.
4.)   Make super small amounts - like 1 to 4 bars of soap at one time.


----------



## SoapySuds

cmzaha said:


> To be fair, there are some very nice M&P bases available and not all people can use lye-based soaps. We are all entitled to our opinions but there is no harm in using m&p and some very creative soaps are made with it. A poorly made bar of soap can cause skin irritation and a bar of lye-based soap can come closer to causing hair to fall out than an actual syndet m&p bar will. Actually most m&p bases are no longer actual syndet anymore only the ultra-clear bases. I do happen to know people that have to use syndet bars. Essentials by Catalina happen to make a very nice clear and ultra-clear base that is made by them. Not all bases are made the same and propylene glycol is used as a humectant and used in antifreeze because it does not kill animals if they happen to drink it if some have leaked on the ground. Some things get a bad rap that does not necessarily deserve it. No, I have no intention of starting an argument here, this is just my opinion.



No argument here, just discussion.

If you understand the chemistry behind soap and how NaOH and KOH react with H2O in an environment, a properly cured bar of soap will be fine for just about any persons skin, even one that was made with excessive lye. Plus, all soap, including syndets are made with lye. Basic chemistry.

A CP bar that still has active lye in it should never be sold for anything other than utility purposes. But if it’s been sitting around and stored properly, over time there will be no lye left in the bar. No lye, no dissolving of skin or hair, no hair loss.

Using lye in soap making is no worse than using drain cleaner. Liquid plumber is a lye solution, that has other chemicals not suitable for soap making, but if you are comfortable sloshing that stuff around, you should be comfortable in using lye. And so much less is used for a small batch of soap than what gets tossed down the drain.

I recall very recently picking up a package of a MP base and read the ingredients on it. Sugar was the first ingredient. Actually it was Sucrose, which is just another name for sugar. But it was still sugar nonetheless.

Propylene glycol, I won’t eat stuff with that in it and I won’t put it on my body. I’ve watched dogs have seizures because I gave a dog cookie coated with a glaze that was mostly propylene glycol to a dog. You cannot convince me otherwise because I’ve seen what it can do firsthand in a closely  watched, isolated environment. Not everyone or every dog reacts to it, but it’s the few affected that makes me realize it’s not that great of a product.

I stopped using over the counter products because my hair was falling out and I now make my own shampoo from KOH and a variety of oils, and scents that are paraben and phthalate free. My hair has grown back. It’s thicker than it was before and it healthier than it’s been forever.

I’ve looked at making my own melt and pour, but it seems impossible to do without Propylene glycol. I simply won’t use it.

I’ve only been able to find one MP without propylene in it, it has mixed reviews. If I feel necessary to have to have it, I might order it, but currently I love my regular CP soap made by me.


----------



## cmzaha

SoapySuds said:


> No argument here, just discussion.
> 
> If you understand the chemistry behind soap and how NaOH and KOH react with H2O in an environment, a properly cured bar of soap will be fine for just about any persons skin, even one that was made with excessive lye. Plus, all soap, including syndets are made with lye. Basic chemistry.


Sorry, but some of your above information is incorrect and I Do understand the chemistry of making soap. Even though I may not be a chemist I do not appreciate you indicating I do not know. I have one daughter and I also have one customer that cannot use lye-based soap. Not all syndet based are made with lye. Many clear and Ultra Clear bases do not use soap as a base. Please get Your facts straight.

Also, people like my daughter with epilepsy could not work with lye so she could only use m&p base and she did gorgeous work making and selling over a ton (literally) of product a year when she was going strong.


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## SoapySuds

cmzaha said:


> Sorry, but some of your above information is incorrect and I Do understand the chemistry of making soap. Even though I may not be a chemist I do not appreciate you indicating I do not know. I have one daughter and I also have one customer that cannot use lye-based soap. Not all syndet based are made with lye. Many clear and Ultra Clear bases do not use soap as a base. Please get Your facts straight.
> 
> Also, people like my daughter with epilepsy could not work with lye so she could only use m&p base and she did gorgeous work making and selling over a ton (literally) of product a year when she was going strong.



Yay for your daughter! 

Yes, not all syndets use lyes, some use other harsher chemicals to create them.

SLS is show to have toxicity at .5 grams. Which is why you aren’t supposed to swallow toothpaste and why you are supposed to not get shampoo in your eyes. This is all readily available in public databases, including results from testing.

I have a relative who doesn’t use any cleaning products, soaps, detergents, deodorants, shampoos, unless she’s positive it does not have chemicals in it. Much of the stuff she ends up using has more chemicals than anything normal out there. She probably wouldn’t drink water from her faucet if she knew it had chlorine and flouride in it from public water treatment plants. We don’t try to educate her, she ends up isolating herself more if we do. Even if I tried to convince her my unscented soap has no fragrance, she wouldn’t trust me because the soap smells like soap, I somehow put fragrance in it. Like your customer, she’s always right.


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## cmzaha

SoapySuds said:


> Plus, all soap, including syndets are made with lye. Basic chemistry.
> 
> Yes, not all syndets use lyes, some use other harsher chemicals to create them.


Well which is it? It cannot be both. Just curious... 
Sorry everyone I am a little cranky tonight and do not like someone insinuating I do not know the basic chemistry of making soap. Guess I need to just go to bed.


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## TheGecko

Adding in my three cents here.....

Soap...is soap.  Whether is Melt & Pour, Cold Process, Cold Process Oven Process, Hot Process, Rebatch, Kettle Process*, Continuous Process* and any other process that combines Fat and Lye.

* - Commercially produced soap

EVERY process has its Pros and Cons so no one process is 'better' than the other, it's simply a matter of personal preference.

Back in the days when I had small children and was a SAHM, I would have definitely done M&P...no worries about Sodium Hydroxide and the kids would have been able to take a bath that night with soap they created earlier in the day.  I have no interest in HP or Rebatch because of the added expense of having to purchase and store crockpots and I already 'cook' enough as it is.  I like CP because it's like making instant pudding...mix the ingredients, put it in the frig and forget it until it's time to eat it.  

Now some of the stuff you read about M&P...it's mainly marketing.  When you look at the definition of 'organic', pretty much all oils and butters can be label as such because they come from 'living matter'.  Adding additional glycerin doesn't make a soap 'more moisturizing', in fact, adding too much can have the opposite effect.  It's like having oily skin and using products to 'dry' your skin can actually cause your body to produce more oil.  And slathering your dry skin with moisturizer can cause your body to cut back of the amount of oil it produces causing your skin to be even dryer.  And using animal fats doesn't leave a 'soap film' on your skin any more than vegetable fats...if you have a soap film, it's because you didn't rinse all the soap off.

Vegan and gluten-free are big marketing gimmicks right now.  Unless you add animal products (fats and milk) or honey to your soap, it's "vegan".  And it don't add any 'wheat (wheatberries, durum, emmer, semolina, spelt, farina, farro, graham, KAMUT® khorasan wheat and einkorn), rye, barley and triticale – a cross between wheat and rye', your soap is "gluten-free".

And for those you think that M&P is just cheap soap (from a rant I found on YouTube)...have you seen the prices for M&P bases?  And yes, M&P does contain ingredients that aren't used in other soap processes, but that is the nature of the beast and not necessarily a 'bad' thing.


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## Microchick

SoapySuds said:


> Yay for your daughter!
> 
> Yes, not all syndets use lyes, some use other harsher chemicals to create them.
> 
> SLS is show to have toxicity at .5 grams. Which is why you aren’t supposed to swallow toothpaste and why you are supposed to not get shampoo in your eyes. This is all readily available in public databases, including results from testing.
> 
> I have a relative who doesn’t use any cleaning products, soaps, detergents, deodorants, shampoos, unless she’s positive it does not have chemicals in it. Much of the stuff she ends up using has more chemicals than anything normal out there. She probably wouldn’t drink water from her faucet if she knew it had chlorine and flouride in it from public water treatment plants. We don’t try to educate her, she ends up isolating herself more if we do. Even if I tried to convince her my unscented soap has no fragrance, she wouldn’t trust me because the soap smells like soap, I somehow put fragrance in it. Like your customer, she’s always right.


It is misinformation like the above about SLS that call into question ANYTHING said on forums.  Retired chemist in the medical field here.  Your sentence about “toxicity at .5 grams” is taken way out of context.  Studies report that the oral lethal dose for humans is 0.5 g/kg.  That is, a 150 lb person would have to consume approx. 1lb of SLS!  So, no, a dose of 0.5 g is not toxic.  As for wash-off products, I can’t find any evidence that SLS presents toxicity issues.  
I don’t mean to be argumentative or unkind; I may not be a seasoned soaper but I do know my chemistry.  I had to put my 2 cents in to please beg people to do their research.


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## SoapySuds

https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium-dodecyl-sulfate


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## TheGecko

SoapySuds said:


> https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium-dodecyl-sulfate



As @Microchick said:

*14.1.13. Human Toxicity Values*

... probable oral lethal dose (human) 0.5-5 g/kg, between 1 oz & 1 pint (*or 1 lb*) for 70 kg person (150 lb).


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## tspin

I love both M&P and cp. with M&P it depends on which type of M&P you are using and what company you buy from. I would not recommend hobby lobby or Amazon unless it comes from a soap co. Buy from a reputable soap company. You can add many different oils and or butters to help it to soften the skin.
i use Stephenson.



TheGecko said:


> As @Microchick said:
> 
> *14.1.13. Human Toxicity Values*
> 
> ... probable oral lethal dose (human) 0.5-5 g/kg, between 1 oz & 1 pint (*or 1 lb*) for 70 kg person (150 lb).



I'm not a chemist but, the sls is not toxic just harsh on the skin


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## Benjamin11

Does this look any good? Its from a company called "Stephenson": & i was wondering what happens if more oil is added. I wanted to make pure hemp seed oil soap. Its £7.45 a kg. Oh & whats wrong with Propylene Glycol? I use it in homemade vape juice which I inhale lol

1Kg Block of Melt and Pour Soap Base.

Ideal for adding your own favourite scent, making as gifts for other people etc.

Easy to make - full instructions provided

Our Melt and Pour Natural SLS Free Soap Base is free from foam boosters such as SLS

Our Melt & Pour Glycerin Soap base is ALL VEGETABLE OIL and contains no alcohol or harmful products to dry your skin! Glycerin, a natural emollient, draws moisture out of the air to benefit skin health. It cleanses without stripping or upsetting the delicate natural pH balance necessary for soft, healthy skin. And, since we don't use animal oils, our soap rinses clean and leaves no soapy film behind. All our soap bases are produced from the highest quality double distilled and deodorized clear coconut oil, forming luxurious lather and sparkling clarity.

Usage: A 1Kg brick can make between 10 - 20 soaps, depending on the size of the soap you're trying to make.

Features: Highly moisturising formula, No artificial colours added, No animal testing, 100% Vegetable base, Biodegradable, Opaque in colour, Contains no surfactants or Propylene Glycol, Sodium Lauryl Sulphate, Odourless base for a superior fragrance lift, Neutral pH of approximately 8.0 - 9.0, Compatible with wide range of fragrances

Caution: When making soaps it is good to remember that the Melt & Pour Bases contain water as part of the formula. So if they are left exposed to the atmosphere, the water will evaporate and the bar of soap will shrink. We would recommend fully wrapping the ENTIRE soap bar as soon as it is poured and cooled--this should minimize/eliminate any shrinkage.


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## bookreader451

If you want a hemp base try Brambleberry it is very good.  

When adding things to MP you have to be careful.  Don't add more than 1tbs pp of base.  I have used Stephenson's and it melts at a higher temp than other bases so you really need to watch your temperatures. I found it a little more temperamental than SFIC bases.


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## Benjamin11

Looks good @ 5% hemp oil. It says to add your own fragrance. Does that mean it doesn't smell of hemp oil? Is there any way to get a higher % into it? Maybe a shower gel, like a liquid soap? I really like the smell of it. It would be for every day use. Please forgive my lack of knowlege.


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## bookreader451

Benjamin11 said:


> Looks good @ 5% hemp oil. It says to add your own fragrance. Does that mean it doesn't smell of hemp oil? Is there any way to get a higher % into it? Maybe a shower gel, like a liquid soap? I really like the smell of it. It would be for every day use. Please forgive my lack of knowlege.


I wouldn't mess around with it.   It is good. I used it for my husband and he loved it. Google hemp fragrance oil and see if it is out there and add that for the scent.


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## tspin

Carly B said:


> Sharee, I made my first cold processed soap today after doing M&P and rebatch for years.  MGM is right--you need to try how it works, first.  M&P is much more fluid--the colors don't swirl, they blend.  Think about it like pouring two colors of jello--they aren't going to stay separate until they have hardened up--you try to swirl cherry jello and lemon jello and you'll get an orange colored  cherry lemonade flavor.
> 
> If you want to see some really cool things to do with M&P, look on youtube for Koala Soap videos.  I learned some M&P stuff to do with color that I had never even thought about before. It was very inspiring.


I'm sorry but I have to disagree. It is very much of a challenge to swirl M&P but I have learned with lots of practice and TONS of research. I have been working on the butterfly swirl and hanger with M&P. Here's a few I've made



tspin said:


> I'm sorry but I have to disagree. It is very much of a challenge to swirl M&P but I have learned with lots of practice and TONS of research. I have been working on the butterfly swirl and hanger with M&P. Here's a few I've made


It is not easy but can be done



Sharee said:


> I like a challenge so I think I will try this with an MP ..
> nope not yet.  I’m trying to pin down the best thermometer the best tools the best cake moulds ..


I use a infrared thermometer.



bookreader451 said:


> Melt and pour will not swirl like that no matter what you do.  You need to understand the nature of MP and the strengths and weaknesses.


It is possible to do but, you have to have the right base, temps, and colorants.



View attachment 42407
View attachment 42407
View attachment 42407


bookreader451 said:


> Melt and pour will not swirl like that no matter what you do.  You need to understand the nature of MP and the strengths and weaknesses.


Yes it is possible here is a smaller version similar


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## MGM

It is quite remarkable what you've done with swirling in M&P! The OP had never made a single bar of soap in her life and was researching what swirls she wanted to attempt, so a few of us were telling her swirling in M&P was next to impossible and she should keep it simple and play to M&P's strengths, not weakness. The good news is, you can swirl in your sleep with CP...



SoapySuds said:


> Propylene glycol, I won’t eat stuff with that in it and I won’t put it on my body. I’ve watched dogs have seizures because I gave a dog cookie coated with a glaze that was mostly propylene glycol to a dog. You cannot convince me otherwise because I’ve seen what it can do firsthand in a closely  watched, isolated environment. Not everyone or every dog reacts to it, but it’s the few affected that makes me realize it’s not that great of a product.



Well, we know that chocolate kills dogs but we not only soap with it, we actually eat it!
I wonder what would happen if a dog ate lye.....


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## tspin

MGM said:


> Well, we know that chocolate kills dogs but we not only soap with it, we actually eat it!
> I wonder what would happen if a dog ate lye.....


Yea there are a lot of things that our stomachs can handle but does not effect us right away yet, I DONOT trust the fda. They allow stuff to be on the market that shouldnt be....and its in food. If people or companies know how to get around the labeling the right way they could put almost anything on the shelf. Makes me wonder if a lot of the stuff we eat causes cancer. For instance what about the pesticide in cereals that we have been eating for years.  Ok done ranting



MGM said:


> It is quite remarkable what you've done with swirling in M&P! The OP had never made a single bar of soap in her life and was researching what swirls she wanted to attempt, so a few of us were telling her swirling in M&P was next to impossible and she should keep it simple and play to M&P's strengths, not weakness. The good news is, you can swirl in your sleep with CP...


Thank you! You are right tho, should keep it simple and small batches.



MGM said:


> It is quite remarkable what you've done with swirling in M&P! The OP had never made a single bar of soap in her life and was researching what swirls she wanted to attempt, so a few of us were telling her swirling in M&P was next to impossible and she should keep it simple and play to M&P's strengths, not weakness. The good news is, you can swirl in your sleep with CP...


I can't wait to play with cp!!!


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