# Sodium gluconate



## nframe (Mar 23, 2018)

Is it possible to add this to soap (instead of EDTA)?  This is what I read about it:
The outstanding property of sodium gluconate is its excellent chelating power, especially in alkaline and concentrated alkaline solutions. It forms stable chelates with calcium, iron, copper, aluminium and other heavy metals, and in this respect, it surpasses all other chelating agents, such as EDTA, NTA and related compounds.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 23, 2018)

Looks like it might work. Give it a try and let us know!


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## nframe (Mar 23, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> Looks like it might work. Give it a try and let us know!


What percentage should I try? 0.5% of oil weight?


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## DeeAnna (Mar 23, 2018)

I was seeing amounts from 0.1% to 1%. So 0.5% sounds like a reasonable number. But other than a 5 minute skim session, I have utterly no knowledge of this chemical, so take my comment for what it's worth.


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## nframe (Mar 23, 2018)

Thanks DeeAnna.  I have ordered the stuff.  I'll try it at 0.5% and report in due course.


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## SaltedFig (Mar 23, 2018)

I like it's biodegradeability and low/non toxicity.

A quick look suggests that it might have a softening effect on the soap (it is used as a plasticiser for concrete).

Also interested in how you go


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## penelopejane (Apr 2, 2018)

If sodium gluconate is a chelating agent would it also be a substitute for Citric Acid?
EDTA also hardens a soap so would sodium gluconate be a substitute for salt?


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## nframe (Apr 2, 2018)

Well, I made the soap and it worked fine.  The addition of the sodium gluconate did not cause anything to happen, it behaved just as it does with EDTA.  What was different though is that I put the soap in the oven to do CPOP (as I usually do) but then I forgot the soap in the oven.  In the evening, my husband (who was making dinner that night) switched the oven on to 180C and, after about 30 minutes, when he opened the door he saw the soap.  I am amazed that it survived!  (I attach a photo).  The soap is really hard now but whether it is due to the baking or not, I don't know.  So, all in all, it is not really a reliable experiment.  I'll have to make another batch.  Oh well...


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## penelopejane (Apr 2, 2018)

Nice looking soap.  The only time that happened to me (accidentally turning on the oven) my soap smelt like moldy socks.  It never recovered.  Glad you saved yours.


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## cmzaha (Apr 2, 2018)

nframe said:


> Well, I made the soap and it worked fine.  The addition of the sodium gluconate did not cause anything to happen, it behaved just as it does with EDTA.  What was different though is that I put the soap in the oven to do CPOP (as I usually do) but then I forgot the soap in the oven.  In the evening, my husband (who was making dinner that night) switched the oven on to 180C and, after about 30 minutes, when he opened the door he saw the soap.  I am amazed that it survived!  (I attach a photo).  The soap is really hard now but whether it is due to the baking or not, I don't know.  So, all in all, it is not really a reliable experiment.  I'll have to make another batch.  Oh well...View attachment 29635


They turned out gorgeous and I see a Dolphin in the top right soap


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## penelopejane (Apr 2, 2018)

nframe said:


> Well, I made the soap and it worked fine.  The addition of the sodium gluconate did not cause anything to happen, it behaved just as it does with EDTA.



Do you have to neutralise sodium gluconate with extra NaOH?


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## nframe (Apr 2, 2018)

No, I used at 0.5% of the oil weight.


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## penelopejane (Apr 18, 2018)

I have made my testers of 0.5% and 1% sodium gluconate and CA.

I know CA stops soap scum because when I first started I used to get glug in my floor drain and since using CA I don't. 

I know SG is supposed to stop soap scum but how am I going to tell that it works best at 0.5% or 1% when it will take weeks of use to see if I get glug in my floor drain?

Is there a better test?


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## nframe (Apr 19, 2018)

Well, I made another batch and did not cook it this time!  The sodium gluconate seems to work as well as EDTA.  I can't say which one is better.  I suppose I'll buy whichever one is the cheapest in future.


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## SaltedFig (Apr 19, 2018)

Bubble tests ...

You can test your soaps by taking a same sized piece of each soap recipe, and shaking in individual bottles of hard water.

Compare the bubbles to each other, and to a "control" soap piece (no additives) shaken in soft water.


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## nframe (Apr 19, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Bubble tests ...
> 
> You can test your soaps by taking a same sized piece of each soap recipe, and shaking in individual bottles of hard water.
> 
> Compare the bubbles to each other, and to a "control" soap piece (no additives) shaken in soft water.


What a good idea!  Thank you.


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## penelopejane (Apr 19, 2018)

nframe said:


> Well, I made another batch and did not cook it this time!  The sodium gluconate seems to work as well as EDTA.  I can't say which one is better.  I suppose I'll buy whichever one is the cheapest in future.



So the soap is hard like EDTA soap?
What are the other characteristics?
I am trying to work out what I’m looking for. 
My soap is probably too young to test but will try salted figs suggestions today.


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## nframe (Apr 20, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> So the soap is hard like EDTA soap?
> What are the other characteristics?
> I am trying to work out what I’m looking for.
> My soap is probably too young to test but will try salted figs suggestions today.


Yes, the soap looks and feels exactly the same as with EDTA.  I cannot find any special characteristics.


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## selma (Apr 21, 2018)

Hi everyone!
I've been planning for ages to try sodium gluconate in soap, and still haven't done it. So now I just have to! I have hard water, and I always use citric acid in my soaps as a chelating agent. In my research I've found this PDF file on sodium gluconate which might be interesting to read. Good information! Such a shame that it's so expensive here in Bosnia and Herzegovina!


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## penelopejane (Apr 21, 2018)

Not all suppliers make SG by naturally fermenting glucose.
Jungbunzlauer is the only one I’ve found so far!
There are sure to be others.


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## reinbeau (May 3, 2018)

So would you add it to the lye water as I do sodium lactate?


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## nframe (May 3, 2018)

reinbeau said:


> So would you add it to the lye water as I do sodium lactate?


I add it to a bit of the water amount, along with other additives like sugar, coconut milk powder, etc.


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## Cclaudia (May 3, 2018)

reinbeau said:


> So would you add it to the lye water as I do sodium lactate?


I dissolve  sodium gluconate in the water before adding the lye.


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## nframe (May 3, 2018)

Cclaudia said:


> I dissolve  sodium gluconate in the water before adding the lye.


I have never done that.  It sounds easier than what I do.


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## Cclaudia (May 3, 2018)

nframe said:


> I have never done that.  It sounds easier than what I do.


Yes it is, I alway use both sodium citrate and sodium gluconate as chelators in my handmade soap (they help prevent DOS and soap scum, I have very hard water) and dissolving them in the water before adding the lye is the easy way to do it


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## elurah (May 3, 2018)

I am so excited about all this sodium gluconate hype! Once I can figure out a setup at home, I want to test of the effectiveness of SG compared to EDTA for preventing DOS. 

For those using SG, can I ask which supplier you choose? So far I have ordered samples from Making Cosmetics. I saw someone mention Jungbunzlauer but I can't figure out how to order from them. 

Thanks for the info!


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## nframe (May 3, 2018)

elurah said:


> I am so excited about all this sodium gluconate hype! Once I can figure out a setup at home, I want to test of the effectiveness of SG compared to EDTA for preventing DOS.
> 
> For those using SG, can I ask which supplier you choose? So far I have ordered samples from Making Cosmetics. I saw someone mention Jungbunzlauer but I can't figure out how to order from them.
> 
> Thanks for the info!


I live in the UK so it is a UK supplier.  I can look them up if you are interested.


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## Cclaudia (May 3, 2018)

elurah said:


> I am so excited about all this sodium gluconate hype! Once I can figure out a setup at home, I want to test of the effectiveness of SG compared to EDTA for preventing DOS.
> 
> For those using SG, can I ask which supplier you choose? So far I have ordered samples from Making Cosmetics. I saw someone mention Jungbunzlauer but I can't figure out how to order from them.
> 
> Thanks for the info!


 I'm in Arizona and here is where I buy sodium gluconate : https://www.saveoncitric.com/nsearc...hsubmit=Search&vwcatalog=yhst-128631805714435


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## elurah (May 4, 2018)

Thanks nframe and cclaudia for the info! Love Save on Citric's tag line "supplies for do-it-yourself chemists" LOL that sounds ill-advised.


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## Cclaudia (May 4, 2018)

elurah said:


> Thanks nframe and cclaudia for the info! Love Save on Citric's tag line "supplies for do-it-yourself chemists" LOL that sounds ill-advised.


 but we are, making soap make us chemists...a little bit


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## penelopejane (Jul 2, 2018)

deleted


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## Sacto (Jul 3, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> I am thinking it must be the combination of SG and vinegar or SG, vinegar and Coconut oil.  Or it might just be poor mixing on my behalf twice in a row?



Do you add the SG to  the vinegar/NaOH solution? Or do you add the SG to the vinegar and then add the NaOH? The vinegar may have its own reaction with the SG which may change the chemistry a bit. ... Just a guess.


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## penelopejane (Jul 3, 2018)

Sacto said:


> Do you add the SG to  the vinegar/NaOH solution? Or do you add the SG to the vinegar and then add the NaOH? The vinegar may have its own reaction with the SG which may change the chemistry a bit. ... Just a guess.



I deleted my post because I just made another mini batch and it worked (SG+Vinegar+CO) and not grainy.

I usually add NaOH to water.  SG to separate water then add to oils.  And add vinegar to oils separately as well.
A bit of a micro manager, I am afraid, but I am conscious of weird reactions.

I did have the NaOH a bit hotter than I usually do in one of the ones that failed although the combined heat was about 42*C.
The last test I did (just 1/2 hour ago) I waited for the NaOH to come down in temp a bit more but warmed the oils so the combined heat was 42*.  Maybe the SG or vinegar didn't like the heat?

Soap gremlins?????


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## penelopejane (Jul 4, 2018)

Have made a few more SG soaps.  After much research I realise my last few batches riced.

The recipe is well tried with CO and Shea butter. 
The additives are sodium gluconate (0.5%), vinegar (20%), AC and tested FO.  Lye concentration 30%. 
Both times the soap turned grainy in the pot (riced). The first time I also used coconut milk. But the second one without coconut milk is the same.  I soaped at 120* (44*C) when they were all mixed together.  

These combinations work fine:
SG without coconut or vinegar.
SG and Coconut oil.
Vinegar and coconut without SG.

I am thinking it must be the combination of SG and vinegar or SG, vinegar and Coconut oil. 
I made a small test batch with SG+vinegar+CO poured into the oil separately and it worked fine. 
Then made a bigger batch and it riced again - but it was a 5 step pour so takes time and although it accelerated a bit after I SB'd it barely to emulsion it wasn't till the end of the pour that it started to rice.  AC tends to accelerate a bit for me.  The temp was 44*C when it was finally in the mold but the top is grainy.

Do you think:
a) the batter cooled too quickly
b) vinegar should be added to NaOH not the oils?
c) the SG is reacting weirdly with the vinegar - should it be added to the NaOH too?
d) the SG is reacting to the vinegar - both shouldn't be used together?
e) I should give up soaping entirely.  

All help gratefully received.


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## Sacto (Jul 6, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> Have made a few more SG soaps.  After much research I realise my last few batches riced.
> 
> The recipe is well tried with CO and Shea butter.
> The additives are sodium gluconate (0.5%), vinegar (20%), AC and tested FO.  Lye concentration 30%.
> ...



"B"

You have two specific chemical reactions happening at once in your batter. The Lye and oil & lye and vinegar. I do not believe the Sodium Gluconate,  or the activated charcoal are directly involved in the reaction. But they can influence the reactions. I would suggest completing each reaction separately; react the lye water with the vinegar, then react it with the oils.  Remember too that larger batches do behave differently than smaller ones. It depends on how efficiently the oils and lye water are mixed; it is easier to thoroughly mix a smaller batch than a larger one.


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## penelopejane (Jul 6, 2018)

I made another batch and dissolved the lye in water and when it had cooled to about 40*C I added the vinegar. I dissolved the SG in water and added it to all the oils and FO. I did a 1 kg batch this time - smaller than before but bigger than the test batch that worked. 

At 130*F it it started to go grainy (mild ricing???) before I had mixed it at all. I SB’d it and it took ages (about 5 mins of intermittent SB - much longer than this recipe usually takes) to come to even a light trace.  It stayed in suspension, lost it’s grainyness and it looked fine as when I poured it into the mold at 110*F.
I used the coconut milk again. 

So thanks, the idea of putting the vinegar with the lye is a good one. I’m thinking of adding the SG to the water before the lye next time.

But what is causing this usually good recipe to tend to rice?
Is ricing caused by too much heat or too little heat?


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## BrewerGeorge (Jul 6, 2018)

It's possible that the gluconate is a better nucleation site for soap crystals?  How does the size of the gluconate compare with the citrate?


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## penelopejane (Jul 6, 2018)

BrewerGeorge said:


> It's possible that the gluconate is a better nucleation site for soap crystals?  How does the size of the gluconate compare with the citrate?



The crystals are the same size. 
What does this mean in layman’s terms?


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## ghoshsmita (Aug 15, 2020)

nframe said:


> Well, I made another batch and did not cook it this time!  The sodium gluconate seems to work as well as EDTA.  I can't say which one is better.  I suppose I'll buy whichever one is the cheapest in future.


Hi! Been searching all over for some info on Sodium Glauconate. Could you please help me. I have ended up buying 5khs of Sodium Glauconate as it wasn't available in smaller quantities. I have we have really really hard water and too much soap scum. I know how much to add, but do you add it at trace is what I would like to know. Also if it is good for reducing soap scum. I have not got full answers any any of the soap forums I have asked this. Please help! TIA


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## nframe (Aug 16, 2020)

ghoshsmita said:


> Hi! Been searching all over for some info on Sodium Glauconate. Could you please help me. I have ended up buying 5khs of Sodium Glauconate as it wasn't available in smaller quantities. I have we have really really hard water and too much soap scum. I know how much to add, but do you add it at trace is what I would like to know. Also if it is good for reducing soap scum. I have not got full answers any any of the soap forums I have asked this. Please help! TIA


I don't add it at trace.  I put some of the water aside and add it to that, as well as sugar.  I then mix that water with the oils, before adding the lye solution.  Incidentally, I now use citric acid to reduce the scum as it is much cheaper.  I do the same with citric acid - add it to a bit of the water with sugar.  The thing with citric acid is that you need to add more NaOH.


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## ghoshsmita (Aug 16, 2020)

nframe said:


> I don't add it at trace.  I put some of the water aside and add it to that, as well as sugar.  I then mix that water with the oils, before adding the lye solution.  Incidentally, I now use citric acid to reduce the scum as it is much cheaper.  I do the same with citric acid - add it to a bit of the water with sugar.  The thing with citric acid is that you need to add more NaOH.


Thank you SO much! I will try that today. I ended up with a LOT of Sodium Glauconate(approx 11lb),  so as long as it's good for reducing scum, I am pleased. I read up on it, but never managed to find out HOW to add it ...and was sweating when I wasn't getting any answers


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## cmzaha (Aug 16, 2020)

It actually has been answered many times in the forum since I have posted here numerous times because I use SG & EDTA in all batches. My daughter lives in an area with extremely hard well water and I found by trial and reading labels on products available in her area that 0.5% Tetrasodium EDTA and 0.5% Sodium Gluconate together, of the total soap batch, worked well at cutting soap scum. I also soap with Sorbitol in place of sugar so dissolve all three in the liquid help back from the lye solution. I actually soap with 50/50 masterbatch so have to add in extra liquid to my lye solution, which what I dissolve all additives in. I do not use SL so never dissolve additives in my lye solution.


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## Jersey Girl (Aug 16, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> It actually has been answered many times in the forum since I have posted here numerous times because I use SG & EDTA in all batches. My daughter lives in an area with extremely hard well water and I found by trial and reading labels on products available in her area that 0.5% Tetrasodium EDTA and 0.5% Sodium Gluconate together, of the total soap batch, worked well at cutting soap scum. I also soap with Sorbitol in place of sugar so dissolve all three in the liquid help back from the lye solution. I actually soap with 50/50 masterbatch so have to add in extra liquid to my lye solution, which what I dissolve all additives in. I do not use SL so never dissolve additives in my lye solution.


@cmzaha, after you dissolve the edta and sg in the water do you add it to your masterbatched lye solution?  I’ve been adding the edta solution ( I make a 50/50) to my oils. Could the sg be added that way too?  Is one way better than the other?


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## cmzaha (Aug 16, 2020)

I dissolve my EDTA, Sorbitol and SC in my liquid then pour the liquid in my oils. As mentioned I do not dissolve anything in my lye solution.


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## ghoshsmita (Aug 16, 2020)

nframe said:


> I don't add it at trace.  I put some of the water aside and add it to that, as well as sugar.  I then mix that water with the oils, before adding the lye solution.  Incidentally, I now use citric acid to reduce the scum as it is much cheaper.  I do the same with citric acid - add it to a bit of the water with sugar.  The thing with citric acid is that you need to add more NaOH.





cmzaha said:


> It actually has been answered many times in the forum since I have posted here numerous times because I use SG & EDTA in all batches. My daughter lives in an area with extremely hard well water and I found by trial and reading labels on products available in her area that 0.5% Tetrasodium EDTA and 0.5% Sodium Gluconate together, of the total soap batch, worked well at cutting soap scum. I also soap with Sorbitol in place of sugar so dissolve all three in the liquid help back from the lye solution. I actually soap with 50/50 masterbatch so have to add in extra liquid to my lye solution, which what I dissolve all additives in. I do not use SL so never dissolve additives in my lye solution.


I did see the detailed answers posted earlier AFTER Nframe replied to my question. For some reason, I kept searching for answers earlier & just couldn't find it. I did read through the post earlier .
Thank you so much for the answer.


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## linne1gi (Aug 16, 2020)

ghoshsmita said:


> Hi! Been searching all over for some info on Sodium Glauconate. Could you please help me. I have ended up buying 5khs of Sodium Glauconate as it wasn't available in smaller quantities. I have we have really really hard water and too much soap scum. I know how much to add, but do you add it at trace is what I would like to know. Also if it is good for reducing soap scum. I have not got full answers any any of the soap forums I have asked this. Please help! TIA


I use citric acid to help with soap scum.  I use it at 2% and I add additional lye to compensate for the NaOH that the citric neutralizes.  It works very well, it's very cheap as well.


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## cmzaha (Aug 16, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> I use citric acid to help with soap scum.  I use it at 2% and I add additional lye to compensate for the NaOH that the citric neutralizes.  It works very well, it's very cheap as well.


I used CA for a few years but found EDTA worked better plus it boosted the preservative in my lotions. Then when my daughter moved I found the EDTA SG combination which really helps. Plus I did not like the crystals the CA would form on the outside of my soaps overtime at the usage it took to help, and I do not have to figure out the extra lye which I already have to factor in for my vinegar.


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## linne1gi (Aug 16, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I used CA for a few years but found EDTA worked better plus it boosted the preservative in my lotions. Then when my daughter moved I found the EDTA SG combination which really helps. Plus I did not like the crystals the CA would form on the outside of my soaps overtime at the usage it took to help, and I do not have to figure out the extra lye which I already have to factor in for my vinegar.


I tried EDTA (I still have some) but I am worried about the environmental effects.


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## ghoshsmita (Aug 16, 2020)

ghoshsmita said:


> I did see the detailed answers posted earlier AFTER Nframe replied to my question. For some reason, I kept searching for answers earlier & just couldn't find it. I did read through the post earlier .
> Thank you so much for the answer.


Possibly, I didn't read all 3 pages. Sorry!


linne1gi said:


> I use citric acid to help with soap scum.  I use it at 2% and I add additional lye to compensate for the NaOH that the citric neutralizes.  It works very well, it's very cheap as well.


Thank you for your help!
I will try using both. I already have bought a huge amount of SG as it wasn't available in smaller quantities & I was sick of soap scum... So if just SG doesn't work,  I will use a little of both. I hope I won't have to buy CA though I have been soaping for a long time now, but didn't sell my soaps till now...it was just for family and friends, but now I am planning on selling & didn't want customers to have blocked drains... hopefully it will all work out fine.


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## cmzaha (Aug 16, 2020)

ghoshsmita said:


> Possibly, I didn't read all 3 pages. Sorry!
> 
> Thank you for your help!
> I will try using both. I already have bought a huge amount of SG as it wasn't available in smaller quantities & I was sick of soap scum... So if just SG doesn't work,  I will use a little of both. I hope I won't have to buy CA though I have been soaping for a long time now, but didn't sell my soaps till now...it was just for family and friends, but now I am planning on selling & didn't want customers to have blocked drains... hopefully it will all work out fine.


I would try a small test with inexpensive oils batch with SG up to 1% and see how it goes since you have a lot of SG.


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## ghoshsmita (Aug 17, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I would try a small test with inexpensive oils batch with SG up to 1% and see how it goes since you have a lot of SG.


Thank you. I will try that. Will get back with the results... Tho I guess I will only know after 4+ weeks. Maybe if I did a comparative test batch.. both with the same oils, I would know if it made any positive difference. I don't want to waste it just because I have it.


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## cmzaha (Aug 17, 2020)

ghoshsmita said:


> Thank you. I will try that. Will get back with the results... Tho I guess I will only know after 4+ weeks. Maybe if I did a comparative test batch.. both with the same oils, I would know if it made any positive difference. I don't want to waste it just because I have it.


I buy my SG on Ebay 5 lbs $17. You just have to find the percentage that works for you and works in your soap.


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## Megan (Aug 17, 2020)

@nframe  I see you use CA now. Did you notice there was a difference between using SG on it's own versus CA? If cost weren't an issue, which would be your choice?


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## cmzaha (Aug 17, 2020)

Megan said:


> @nframe  I see you use CA now. Did you notice there was a difference between using SG on it's own versus CA? If cost weren't an issue, which would be your choice?


not nframe, but I find SC much better than CA  for me. I had to up the CA so much before it really helped, crystals would form not long after curing my soaps that I did not like. EDTA at .5% of my total batch weight made a considerable difference but adding in 0.5% SG with the EDTA helped my daughter even more who has extremely hard water.


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## Megan (Aug 17, 2020)

@cmzaha thank you. I'm getting crystals on some of mine (very few but still) at only 2% CA...so I really think I might try the SG. I have moderately hard water, so even the 2% CA isn't as helpful as I'd like.


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## cmzaha (Aug 17, 2020)

Megan said:


> @cmzaha thank you. I'm getting crystals on some of mine (very few but still) at only 2% CA...so I really think I might try the SG. I have moderately hard water, so even the 2% CA isn't as helpful as I'd like.


I was selling and my customers really did not like the crystals even though they washed off, and the crystals became thicker as the soaps aged. Also, 2% just did not make a noticeable difference for me. With my daughters extremely hard water the combo of EDTA and SG works for her.


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## Megan (Aug 17, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I was selling and my customers really did not like the crystals even though they washed off, and the crystals became thicker as the soaps aged. Also, 2% just did not make a noticeable difference for me. With my daughters extremely hard water the combo of EDTA and SG works for her.


Alright, you sold me! It's lucky I like experimenting!


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## Quilter99755 (Aug 17, 2020)

I used to use CA but didn't feel it was working with our hard water...totally hard. So I bought both Sodium Gluconate and Sodium Citrate...my notes say I use them at 3% which I got off here at some point, but don't remember where. Both are working way, way better than the CA. I don't seem to see a difference between the soaps...and my daughter says the same. If fact, I would have to look at my notes to find out which soap had which additive.


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## Megan (Aug 17, 2020)

Quilter99755 said:


> I used to use CA but didn't feel it was working with our hard water...totally hard. So I bought both Sodium Gluconate and Sodium Citrate...my notes say I use them at 3% which I got off here at some point, but don't remember where. Both are working way, way better than the CA. I don't seem to see a difference between the soaps...and my daughter says the same. If fact, I would have to look at my notes to find out which soap had which additive.


at 3% of citrate, you aren't getting crystalization? (essentially this is what we're making when we neutralize CA)


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## Quilter99755 (Aug 17, 2020)

Not that I have noticed. I am doing HP if that matters.


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