# outside bubbles on my CPOP?



## denisedh (Dec 24, 2014)

Hi Soap Gurus,

I'm new - this is my second loaf of CP and I followed a recipe on Brambleberry to CPOP it.  It has been two days and I unmolded it from a silicone liner (from Essential Depot)  I am still not sure at all about the way things are supposed to look but I think this was too tight for Cpop and formed the bubbles around the edge.

what to do now?  I would appreciate any advice at this busy holiday time!  Attached pics \\






[/IMG][/IMG]
Denise in NC


----------



## denisedh (Dec 24, 2014)

btw, this is upside down to show the bottom bubbles

here are more pics
http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/ddlane/media/IMG_2876_zps176d9773.jpg.html


----------



## JustBeachy (Dec 24, 2014)

CPOP in a silicone liner can produce those types of effects on a soap.  It's why most people won't CPOP with them. 

Merry Christmas.


----------



## Obsidian (Dec 24, 2014)

Yep, caused by the liner. Colors are really pretty, if you hate the bubbles you can use a planer to remove them.


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 24, 2014)

Yes, silicone liners can cause those bubbles when doing CPOP.   I don't CPOP because of that.  I just insulate well and don't have any bubbles.


----------



## denisedh (Dec 24, 2014)

*Thank you so much!!*

Just Beachy, Obsidian and Shunt2011,

Thank you so much for replying so quickly!  I will not CPOP again with that liner or maybe ever - until I get more used to this soap making!

I see a shiny section in the middle top but I am still going to cut it later today.  If the first piece feels at all squishy I will wait longer.

The bubbles will probably be planed off.

Thank you again!

denise


----------



## navigator9 (Dec 25, 2014)

I always use silicone liners, I always CPOP, and I _*never*_  get bubbles. I'm always mystified when I hear people say this, because it has never happened to me. You'd think that as many batches as I've  made, it would have happened at least once! I wish we could get to the  bottom of this.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 25, 2014)

navigator9 said:


> I always use silicone liners, I always CPOP, and I _*never*_  get bubbles. I'm always mystified when I hear people say this, because it has never happened to me. You'd think that as many batches as I've  made, it would have happened at least once! I wish we could get to the  bottom of this.




I wonder if the actual thing that the liners are lining has an impact on this? Is your mould thicker or thinner than the ones used by people who do get the issue?


----------



## TVivian (Dec 25, 2014)

I use silicone liners and when they're brand new I get these bubbles with or without cpop. It seems after 2 or 3 batches it stops happening and the liners leave the soaps perfectly smooth. It's almost like they need to get broken in. Just my thoughts and it could have nothing to do with that. I have 2 new liners on order and am prepared for the bubbles at first.


----------



## Logansama (Dec 25, 2014)

I do CPOP with my silicone molds and liners, and I've found that if I turn the heat really low, then off as soon as it goes into the oven, I don't have any bubbles. Also give it some good sprays with alcohol. I love CPOP, it produces such a gorgeous bar!


----------



## JustBeachy (Dec 25, 2014)

navigator9 said:


> I always use silicone liners, I always CPOP, and I _*never*_  get bubbles. I'm always mystified when I hear people say this, because it has never happened to me. You'd think that as many batches as I've  made, it would have happened at least once! I wish we could get to the  bottom of this.



That is interesting. I wonder if what vivian is saying has anything to do with it?  I don't own any silicon liners, or I'd run some tests. If it stops after a few soaps, maybe a silicone liners needs to be "seasoned". 

These unanswered questions drive me crazy.


----------



## navigator9 (Dec 25, 2014)

I have never had a problem with bubbles, right from the very first batch. No "seasoning" necessary. I don't understand why some have this problem all the time. Actually, in various forums I've read over the years, I've only heard about this problem recently. I'd say maybe the newer silicone liners are manufactured differently from the older ones, but I've bought some recently and not had problems with those either. Old.....new.....loaves.....individual molds.....different recipes, never a problem. I'm stumped!


----------



## denisedh (Dec 25, 2014)

*very interesting~*



TVivian said:


> I use silicone liners and when they're brand new I get these bubbles with or without cpop. It seems after 2 or 3 batches it stops happening and the liners leave the soaps perfectly smooth. It's almost like they need to get broken in. Just my thoughts and it could have nothing to do with that. I have 2 new liners on order and am prepared for the bubbles at first.



Mine is obviously a brand new silicone liner - I wonder if the lye is breaking in the silicone? This is a bad case of bubbles - all over the whole brick.  

But....the first batch of soap I made (from the starter kit from ED) was perfect - not one bubble.  I just remembered that - it is cut and drying - 3 weeks.

Denise


----------



## JustBeachy (Dec 25, 2014)

I'll put some time into trying to figure it out.  I haven't given it much thought, due to never using silicone liners. Navigator, can you post which liners you have used and are using?  And denise, which liner did you use?


----------



## IrishLass (Dec 26, 2014)

Denise- I have a couple of silicone molds- one made by the same company as your mold (Essential Depot), and a different one made by Woodfield's. The Woodfield liner is a dream to work with and never gives me bubbles when I CPOP. I wish I could say the same about the ED silicone mold, but unfortunately, I get the same bubbling issue with the ED mold that you do:

On the left is a perfectly smooth soap made in my Woodfield silicone mold (well, perfectly smooth except for the little air bubble about halfway down from having poured at extremely thick trace), and the soap on the right is a batch soaped in my ED mold. The bubbles that you see in that soap are a typical example of what I get each time I soap in that mold. Thankfully, they are just surface bubbles that plane off nicely.





In comparing the two molds, it is quite obvious they are made out of two different silicones. The ED mold is stiff and can stand up on it's own without the sides bowing inward, while the Woodfield's is considerably softer (and smoother-feeling) and the sides bow inward when standing on it's own, but straighten out nicely when I pour my soap into it.

 I could be wrong, but if you ask me, I think the different type of silicone each is made from has something to do with it.


 IrishLass


----------



## navigator9 (Dec 26, 2014)

JustBeachy said:


> I'll put some time into trying to figure it out.  I haven't given it much thought, due to never using silicone liners. Navigator, can you post which liners you have used and are using?  And denise, which liner did you use?



I have several different liners from different suppliers. My two original liners come from the Upland company, which is no longer in business. I also have one of the "stiffer" kind, from WSP, that doesn't need a box around it, you know the kind I mean, BB has them too. And most recently, I bought one from Nurture Soaps when they had a great sale.

My soaps always look like Irish Lass's on the left, I've never had one that looked like the one on the right. I soap at room temp these days, but I haven't always, and I never had a bubble problem when I didn't. I warm the liner in the oven while I'm soaping. Put it back in the oven after pouring, and turn the oven off, but there are times I've forgotten to turn it off, and only noticed when I went back later to check for gel. If I notice that it's gelled all the way, I take it out of the oven, but there are times when I've had to leave for work, and just left it there, with the oven off. The main oils I use are olive, coconut and palm, I don't usually add castor, but I do use avocado, and sometimes shea. I've made goat's milk, buttermilk, yogurt, coconut milk soaps. I'm trying to think of as many variables as I can, because I figure that those who get bubbles must have something in common, that I don't do, or add, and I'm sure someone out there is smart enough to figure out what it is. I sure hope so, because silicone liners have been nothing but a joy for me.

Also, as I mentioned before, is this a recent phenomenon? I've perused many soap forums over the years, and I don't remember reading anything about this problem until recently. That lead me to think that maybe the newer liners were manufactured differently, but since I recently bought one from Nurture Soaps and had no problems, I guess we can rule that out. Did I just miss this in other forums, or has it been going on all along? It just seems odd to me that over the years, using different molds and different recipes, and always CPOPing, that I've never encountered this problem once!


----------



## MarisaJensen (Dec 26, 2014)

It must be the type of silicone ED uses then. I too have and ED mold and I cant CPOP in it.


----------



## JustBeachy (Dec 26, 2014)

Irish's experience and pics, as well as yours Navigator,  lend a lot of credibility to the type of silicone being the culprit.  Here's a paragraph from a discussion on the different types of high temperature silicone, for kitchen products. 

"The high temperature silicone designation is actually somewhat misleading because silicone products in general feature excellent heat resistance qualities. There are, however, silicone products specifically formulated to deliver elevated levels of heat  resistance. The average general purpose silicone product can  comfortably resist constant exposure to temperatures in the region of  100°F to 150°F (37–65°C). High  temperature silicone products specifically designed for use in  aggressive thermal environments pick up at approximately that  temperature level with low grade products rated at 150 to 200°F. The big  guns among these products can withstand constant exposure to 400°F  (405°C) with short peaks as high as 500–600°F (260–315°C) without suffering any ill effects."

Different articles talking about high temperatures and silicone gaskets, talk about the degradation of the silicone producing a gas, which sounded interestingly like something that would create the air bubbles. There was a lot of technical information about the chemical reaction that was taking place, that DeeAnn would probably love.   My take on it, is any chemical reaction that is taking place in the silicone liner as it heats to temps that the silicone isn't rated for, could be the culprit in the air bubbles. 

Looking up the Woodfield molds, they don't really say what type of silicone the liner is made with, but perusing the Q&A, there is a question of why they are more expensive. With the response being, that the silicone is a high grade silicone. 

I'll keep looking but I'm leaning towards the type of silicone used. Specifically due to the "average general purpose silicone", being able to resist temperatures up to 150F and CPOP being done at 170F for an extended period. Then the high temperature  silicone holding up to 200F, which would mean it's not breaking down at the CPOP temperature.  It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the silicone molds/liners were being made with the general purpose, cheaper silicone.


----------



## navigator9 (Dec 26, 2014)

I did a google search, and one reference I found said the bubbles have to do with a super hot gel phase. Don't know it that's true, but I guess anything is possible. For those of you who get the bubbles, I wonder what would happen if you preheated the molds, but just wrapped them in towels after pouring, and not put them in the oven. Maybe you have too much heat being generated? Maybe preheating and wrapping in towels would provide just enough heat for full as opposed to partial gel, but not enough to get bubbles? I'm grasping at straws here, but it's just such a shame to spend the money on silicone liners only to have your soap end up looking like Swiss cheese! 

Also, for those of you with the ED liners, have you contacted the supplier to see if they have any suggestions? I'd show them that picture Irish Lass, and see what they have to say. You shouldn't have to plane soap off of every batch made in their molds.


----------



## navigator9 (Dec 26, 2014)

JustBeachy said:


> I'll keep looking but I'm leaning towards the type of silicone used. Specifically due to the "average general purpose silicone", being able to resist temperatures up to 150F and CPOP being done at 170F for an extended period. Then the high temperature  silicone holding up to 200F, which would mean it's not breaking down at the CPOP temperature.  It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the silicone molds/liners were being made with the general purpose, cheaper silicone.



I would go along with this, except for the instances of those who had bubbles, but then didn't, after their mold was used a few times. This is really perplexing.


----------



## Obsidian (Dec 26, 2014)

I don't use silicone log molds but I do have a very thick single cavity mold I do CPOP in. I've gotten surface bubbles but usually only when its on the verge of getting too hot.


----------



## JustBeachy (Dec 26, 2014)

navigator9 said:


> I would go along with this, except for the instances of those who had bubbles, but then didn't, after their mold was used a few times. This is really perplexing.



Actually to me, that would lead more credence to the theory. As the chemical reactions of lesser silicone would reduce as the liner "seasoned".  It would seem reasonable that the new silicone could release it's chemical reactions to the heat on the first few uses, then harden,(for lack of a better term). 

Have you ever overheated a silicon spatula?  You know to the point where it looses all it's rigidness and goes all limp.  I've done it a couple of times making Roux. The when the spatula cools, it becomes harder and less flexible. 

I might have to buy a liner from ED to test this. CPOP a soap in it brand new, see if I can get the bubbles. Then just bake the liner in a 170F oven for a bit, let it cool, then repeat a couple of times.  Then try another CPOP in it.


----------



## OliveOil2 (Dec 26, 2014)

I've used silicone liners and molds for the past two years, I've never gotten the bubbles from the BrambleBerry liner or the WSP Log Liner, but I don't CPOP log molds. I had a batch with the same look from a freshware decorative loaf mold, that was goat milk, and left on the counter without anything to keep the heat in. From my research at the time the dots were caused by a sudden shift in temp. My loaf looked like the first photo, but not like the photo IrishLass posted.


----------



## denisedh (Dec 27, 2014)

JustBeachy said:


> I might have to buy a liner from ED to test this. CPOP a soap in it brand new, see if I can get the bubbles. Then just bake the liner in a 170F oven for a bit, let it cool, then repeat a couple of times.  Then try another CPOP in it.



Well - I really am appreciative of the attention this mold is getting.  As a first time soaper I am truly baffled and haven't made another loaf since - after all, it's the only real mold I have!  I do have the cardboard box it came in, which I converted into a mold and plan on lining with my freezer paper and making a loaf (not CPOP)

I think JustBeachy is right when she says it is from overheating.  I feel like the ED silicone is the "cheaper" lower heat tolerant silicone type.  I would like to try preheating it, putting the soap into it, wrapping it instead of putting it back into the oven and seeing what happens.

I do not want to waste my money and supplies on batches that need to be planed off!  

Thanks everyone again!!

denise


----------



## navigator9 (Dec 27, 2014)

denisedh said:


> I think JustBeachy is right when she says it is from overheating.  I feel like the ED silicone is the "cheaper" lower heat tolerant silicone type.  I would like to try preheating it, putting the soap into it, wrapping it instead of putting it back into the oven and seeing what happens.
> 
> I do not want to waste my money and supplies on batches that need to be planed off!
> 
> ...



I don't blame you, you shouldn't have to waste any of your soap by planing it off. If the problem really is caused by a super hot gel phase, preheating the mold and then wrapping it in towels instead of putting it in the oven, may solve the problem. If it's caused by the particular silicone itself, it shouldn't make a difference. Might be worth a shot, just to find out. 

I would also contact the supplier, with photos, and ask if they have any idea what causes the bubbles and what to do about them. Who knows, they may be aware of the problem and have a solution. Good luck to you!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 28, 2014)

Of course, it doesn't have to planed off/wasted - it's still perfectly usable soap even with the bubbles. After a few uses they will be smoothed out anyway and I think your family/friends would be very happy to get the soap regardless


----------



## IrishLass (Dec 28, 2014)

Ditto what Gent said^^^. None of my planed-off, bubbly surfaces get wasted. I just smoosh them all up like one would do with clay, and then I press them into decorative MilyWay-type molds to make pretty, guest-size bars out of them. 


 IrishLass


----------



## denisedh (Dec 28, 2014)

*I am such a Newbie!*



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Of course, it doesn't have to planed off/wasted - it's still perfectly usable soap even with the bubbles. After a few uses they will be smoothed out anyway and I think your family/friends would be very happy to get the soap regardless



I have studied and read and read and watched so many youtube (great!!) and have heard soap makers say they save every piece for drop in pieces, guest and rebatching  but totally forgot it when it came to "my soap"

Thanks for the reminders you guys!!  (IrishLass too!)

denise


----------



## navigator9 (Dec 28, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Of course, it doesn't have to planed off/wasted - it's still perfectly usable soap even with the bubbles. After a few uses they will be smoothed out anyway and I think your family/friends would be very happy to get the soap regardless





IrishLass said:


> Ditto what Gent said^^^. None of my planed-off, bubbly surfaces get wasted. I just smoosh them all up like one would do with clay, and then I press them into decorative MilyWay-type molds to make pretty, guest-size bars out of them.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Absolutely, but.....silicone liners are not cheap, and when you spend  the money, with the expectation of getting smooth surfaces on your soap,  you shouldn't have to put up with less. I would still contact the supplier for their input and suggestions. If I were a supplier, I would want to hear from my customers if they weren't happy, instead of just not buying from me anymore. If this is a common problem, and it seems to be, they may have a work-around.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 28, 2014)

navigator9 said:


> Absolutely, but.....silicone liners are not cheap, and when you spend  the money, with the expectation of getting smooth surfaces on your soap,  you shouldn't have to put up with less. I would still contact the supplier for their input and suggestions. If I were a supplier, I would want to hear from my customers if they weren't happy, instead of just not buying from me anymore. If this is a common problem, and it seems to be, they may have a work-around.




100%! Which is one of the reasons why I use paper. Sure, I forgot once and had a mad panic folding the liners for my two moulds, but rather that than some of the issues people have with the silly-cone ones


----------



## boyago (Dec 28, 2014)

Seems to me like the molds that make the bubbles may be off gassing.  This makes sense to me because the heat involved would in CPOP as well a hot gel would speed this up and it seems to happen to new molds that haven't been broken in.  Of course the type of silicone as well as the manufacturing process would also have an effect.  Curious also to know the country of origin on the molds this happens with.  Maybe a languorous journey from china and trips to and from warehouses give the products more time to off gas out.  I haven't had this happen though I don't use my silcones much but they have all been bought second hand with the exception of my individual bar molds and my cupcake molds.


----------



## CaraBou (Dec 28, 2014)

I too advise inquiring with ED since they may have some tips for you.   I have one of their natural/white ED silicone molds, and have never gotten bubbling after gelling in a warmed oven that was turned off before placing the mold in there.  My typical procedure is to turn on the oven to Warm/170 for a short time (minute or two?), turn the oven off, and pop my filled mold inside. I don't know the actual temp inside the oven but I don't usually leave the temp up so long that the oven beeps to indicate that it is fully preheated. The heating element is not red when I put the soap in.  I turn on the oven light to help keep the temp up, and have done this at various points in time, but usually within 15 minutes of putting the soap in the oven.   I do not preheat the mold like many people talk of doing with their silicone molds, which also might make a difference. 

Maybe my method is short of a true CPOP, but it does encourage gelling, which I think helps dry up/firm up the soap quicker so I can unmold from the silicone within 24 hours.  I also typically use a 2:1 water discount for the same reason. It seems like water amount could also influence bubbling; something to consider. 

The mold I am talking about is the popular natural/white one that ED advertises with the basket; it is not really a liner but a semi-rigid mold.  I don't have a basket, but instead support the mold with the cardboard box that the mold came in (I put cardboard and all into the oven; I tape the flaps shut to cover the mold).  I bought the mold in Dec 2013.  I also have one of their red molds but I don't think I've put that one in the oven yet.  It may act differently since darker colors absorb more heat and hold heat longer.

Hopefully there is enough detail there to see some potential differences, and get ideas for avoiding the bubbles.  Good luck, and please post back if you figure anything out.


----------



## JustBeachy (Dec 28, 2014)

CaraBou said:


> I too advise inquiring with ED since they may have some tips for you.   I have one of their natural/white ED silicone molds, and have never gotten bubbling after gelling in a warmed oven that was turned off before placing the mold in there.  My typical procedure is to turn on the oven to Warm/170 for a short time (minute or two?), turn the oven off, and pop my filled mold inside. I don't know the actual temp inside the oven but I don't usually leave the temp up so long that the oven beeps to indicate that it is fully preheated. The heating element is not red when I put the soap in.  I turn on the oven light to help keep the temp up, and have done this at various points in time, but usually within 15 minutes of putting the soap in the oven.   I do not preheat the mold like many people talk of doing with their silicone molds, which also might make a difference.
> 
> Maybe my method is short of a true CPOP, but it does encourage gelling, which I think helps dry up/firm up the soap quicker so I can unmold from the silicone within 24 hours.  I also typically use a 2:1 water discount for the same reason. It seems like water amount could also influence bubbling; something to consider.
> 
> ...



To me this technique would prevent bubbles from forming, because your staying within the heat limits of general use silicone. 

The non baking silicone has a temperature rating up to 150. The baking  rated silicones are 150 to 200, with the true baking silicone rated for  temps at 400 and  above.

I did a test on my oven tonight. Heated it to 170, measured with a digital baking thermometer. Then opened the oven long enough to simulated putting a mold in, and adjusting. In the few seconds it took to open the door, put in the mold and then close the door, my oven dropped to 149F.  

So if you're not getting the oven up to temperatures above 150F or so, your molds probably are not reacting.  Just a guess, since I haven't ordered some of these liners yet to test them. I'll do it after this week. 

My assumption, the people posting on here with the problems, as well as those that don't have problems, are all using basically the same general recipes. The liners, don't bubble unless they are CPOP'd. But not all liners bubble.  Some stop bubbling after a couple of uses. 

The only two real variables I see, are different suppliers/liners and different temperatures. To me the idea that it's the type of silicone used, and the temperature affect on certain types of silicone, has to be considered as the leading candidate for the bubbles. 

I'm ordering the liners from ED and one from woodfields. Then also sending out some requests for the types of silicone used in the molds from a couple of other vendors as well. I'll let you know what I find. Hopefully, I can reproduce some bubbles. Imagine that, trying to get my soap to mess up.


----------



## boyago (Dec 28, 2014)

JustBeachy said:


> Hopefully, I can reproduce some bubbles. Imagine that, trying to get my soap to mess up.



I actually like the look of IrishLass' extreme example and might do that on purpose on occasion if I knew how.


----------



## CaraBou (Dec 29, 2014)

^^^I do too.  And apparently I have everything I need to do it


----------



## Logansama (Dec 29, 2014)

boyago said:


> I actually like the look of IrishLass' extreme example and might do that on purpose on occasion if I knew how.



I did one soap in a silicone liner that looks like it has a rind. I trimmed it off a couple, then decided I liked the effect.


----------



## lionprincess00 (Dec 29, 2014)

Beachy has a great theory. I mean, maybe I'm being juvenile here, but the bubbles _are_ going _into_ the soap, and not coming out _from_ the soap lending to the theory of gasses from lower heat resistant silicone being heated up and releasing out towards soap. Either way, I've read several people with ed molds who have had this occur. Great eye opening discussion! I'd be irritated personally, but the bubble look could work for you if you rolled with it. It is reminiscent of the bubble wrap bee hive look, just not as deep.


----------



## denisedh (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm making soap today in the same mold - but not CPOP-ing.  I haven' called ED but plan to this afternoon (east coast here).  

As for my bubble experience digression - ha - I bet my oven went down to 149 or less very quickly because I opened it to cover the top with foil one time.  It was definitely not over 170 degrees to start with because I have levels below 200 that are easy to judge.

I want to CpOP again so i hope we can solve this - appreciate all the help!!

denise


----------



## TVivian (Jan 2, 2015)

So just as I predicted, my soap got the bubbles with my brand new crafters choice mold. (First time using it) I did Not Cpop... Just left it out on the counter and still got the bubbles. If you look in the background you can see my 2 older molds that are "seasoned" I no longer get bubbles with those. ::weird:: 

The nice thing is that once the bars are sliced, the bubbles are hardly noticeable.


----------



## denisedh (Jan 4, 2015)

That is weird to me - but I'm having weird problems of my own - and not bubbles.  Another thread is needed and I am searching right now for answers.  

I have not CPOP ed again but did make other batches in the mold that bubbled - they turned out totally bubble less - perfect - so I'm sure it is the CPOP heat process that made it bubble.  

My problems now - measuring/ loaf not filled to the top/ math I guess....I'm working on it!    Newbie problems!


----------



## hud (Jan 4, 2015)

denisedh said:


> That is weird to me - but I'm having weird problems of my own - and not bubbles.  Another thread is needed and I am searching right now for answers.
> 
> I have not CPOP ed again but did make other batches in the mold that bubbled - they turned out totally bubble less - perfect - so I'm sure it is the CPOP heat process that made it bubble.
> 
> My problems now - measuring/ loaf not filled to the top/ math I guess....I'm working on it!    Newbie problems!



Hello denisedh, here how you measure it, multiply 0.39 x the width x the hight x the length of your loaf  and you'll get the weight of your loaf. Hope this helps:smile:


----------



## rainycityjen (Jan 4, 2015)

JustBeachy said:


> The non baking silicone has a temperature rating up to 150. The baking  rated silicones are 150 to 200, with the true baking silicone rated for  temps at 400 and  above.



As usual, I find these posts exactly AFTER I need them. I made my first CPOP yesterday in a silicone baking mold. It was a thrift store buy, but seemed exceptionally thick and rigid. I kept the oven at 170 for 2 hours, just above the 150 temp. The result: shallow surface bubbles on three sides.


----------



## denisedh (Jan 4, 2015)

hud said:


> Hello denisedh, here how you measure it, multiply 0.39 x the width x the hight x the length of your loaf  and you'll get the weight of your loaf. Hope this helps:smile:



Thank you so much and now I'm trying to figure out why I need and what in the world is a water or lye discount - 

I have seen several formulas here and also have downloaded the soapcalc pro app on my phone.  Now, if I need to keep practicing.  I've successfully made 2 recipes that I calculated the lye wrong and the soap will be too caustic and must be thrown away.  such is the learning curve!


----------



## hud (Jan 6, 2015)

denisedh said:


> Thank you so much and now I'm trying to figure out why I need and what in the world is a water or lye discount -
> 
> I have seen several formulas here and also have downloaded the soapcalc pro app on my phone.  Now, if I need to keep practicing.  I've successfully made 2 recipes that I calculated the lye wrong and the soap will be too caustic and must be thrown away.  such is the learning curve!



Denise,  you may check this link, I hope this helps
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=50850


----------



## navigator9 (Jan 6, 2015)

rainycityjen said:


> As usual, I find these posts exactly AFTER I need them. I made my first CPOP yesterday in a silicone baking mold. It was a thrift store buy, but seemed exceptionally thick and rigid. I kept the oven at 170 for 2 hours, just above the 150 temp. The result: shallow surface bubbles on three sides.



I don't leave my oven on after I put the soap in. I preheat the mold while I'm soaping, in the oven at lowest temp. After I pour, I put it in the oven, close the door, turn the oven off, and leave it. Keeping the oven on for two hours may be getting the soap too hot.


----------



## rainycityjen (Jan 6, 2015)

navigator9 said:


> I don't leave my oven on after I put the soap in. I preheat the mold while I'm soaping, in the oven at lowest temp. After I pour, I put it in the oven, close the door, turn the oven off, and leave it. Keeping the oven on for two hours may be getting the soap too hot.



It was a CPOP attempt - I thought the oven is left on for CPOP, and turned off if you simply want to ensure gel in regular CP?


----------



## ngian (Jan 6, 2015)

rainycityjen said:


> I thought the oven is left on for CPOP, and turned off if you simply want to ensure gel in regular CP?



That must be true as Mr Kevin Dunn has also reported the case of CPOP where you bake your soap for 4 hours at 60°C (or for ~3 hours at 70-75°C with air ventilation as a friend has advised me), so as to ensure gel and also help with water evaporation. 

Nikos


----------



## DeeAnna (Jan 6, 2015)

"...I thought the oven is left on for CPOP, and turned off if you simply want to ensure gel in regular CP? ..."

If you want to be a purist, cold process (CP) is soapmaking without added heat. So, no, putting the soap into a preheated warm oven doesn't qualify as CP. Putting the soap on a warm heating pad wouldn't be purist CP either. 

And, again, if you want to be a purist, the CPOP method is cold process soapmaking with added heat from the oven. The general rule of thumb is about 170 deg F for about 1 hour.

But if I've learned one adage about soap making, it's this -- there are many ways to reach Rome.

If you can figure out how to modify the CPOP Rule of Thumb to gel your soap using less heat or less time, there are some real advantages. Some recipes, such as those high in coconut or scented with tricky fragrances, will overheat and crack, separate, or even volcano if you pop that baby into a 170 deg F oven and let it bake for an hour. 

Less fussy recipes might also benefit from a shorter or cooler heating period: There will be less loss of fragrance from the soap. The texture on the top of the soap may stay a little nicer. There may be less soda ash on the top as well. Any botanical ingredients (including superfat) may be less prone to long-term deterioration and rancidity.

"...bake your soap for 4 hours at 60°C [140 deg F] (or for ~3 hours at 70-75°C [170 deg F] with air ventilation...)"

What a researcher does to meet the goals of a scientific experiment is one thing. What a soap maker might want to do to ensure good appearance and longevity might be another! Just a thought....


----------



## Cookie (Jan 6, 2015)

denisedh said:


> I've successfully made 2 recipes that I calculated the lye wrong and the soap will be too caustic and must be thrown away.  such is the learning curve!



I'm very new here and I thought my first batch would end up in the bin because it was lye heavy. I decided to let it cure because I wanted to see how it changed during the curing time. I zap tested it from time to time out of curiosity and it always failed. Then after about three weeks it passed the test! Five weeks of curing time and I've been using the soap for about five days now.....it's lovely.  Just wondering if it might be worth letting your soaps cure to see what happens?

This is an explanation by The Efficacious Gentleman as to why it passed the zap test after so long

It is possible - 
There was a crazy (crazy good!) thread with a VERY lye heavy Castile, where the soap was left and the excess lye reacted with the air to neutralise over time. That soap had a large amount of water which helped to migrate the lye to the outside of the soap where it could react. It was extremely interesting, I must say.


----------



## navigator9 (Jan 6, 2015)

Years ago, when I was learning to make soap, the CPOP instructions I read, ( and as DeeAnna stated, there are as many ways to do anything soap related as there are soapmakers!)  advised to turn the oven off after placing the soap in it. I preheat the mold in the oven first, so that it's nice and warm when I pour, and then turn the oven off after placing the mold in it.  My soap gels to the edges every time.  I'm able to unmold cleanly the following day, and never have to place the silicone mold in the freezer to unmold, as I've heard some they they need to do. Also, I've never had a cracked top or a volcano. And maybe this might have something to do with why I never get bubbles when I CPOP? I can't imagine what the advantage  of heating the soap beyond gel would be. All I know is, I've been doing it this way for years......and it works for me. Every time.


----------



## kharmon320 (Jan 7, 2015)

I do the same as navigator9.  I turn on oven to 170 for a few minutes, put soap in and then peak occasionally.  I'm really only trying to ensure that it completely gels.  The few times that I've left it on, I get the bubbles (in different silicone molds).  I use ED molds all the time without any bubbles, but if my temp stays at 170 then I get bubbles and alligator skin on top.  I think it's just too hot.  Denise- the mold is still perfectly usable.  I do have to insulate if I just set it on a table.  To begin with, I used the cardboard box to place the mold in, fold up top, wrap in towel, blanket, etc.  It helps insulate and keep from bowing too bad.

ETA:  I don't believe that if I CPOP the soap it will be cured quicker.  That's just my humble opinion.  I only use the oven sometimes to make sure the soap gels thoroughly.  In my silicone molds, the ends sometimes don't gel completely.


----------



## JustBeachy (Jan 8, 2015)

I've been slammed with work and a new grandkid, so I haven't had time to run some experiment, but research is turning up some differences in the silicone used by different suppliers. I'll get back in the swing here in a week or so, and try some liner "curing". See if that helps.


----------



## biarine (Jan 8, 2015)

That's a lovely soap, I am trying to do the same. I am just newbie in soap making it's about six months now and I enjoy it. I made a lot of HP than CP. I used my knowledge in doing natural perfume for my essential oil blend. I had hardship in CP after the saponification my scent just vanished, no scent left or just very faint. But in HP my blend shines. Hopefully I can learn more technic here.


----------



## denisedh (Jan 9, 2015)

*studying and learning*

Just wanted all of you to know on this thread that I am still studying and learning so so much!  I'm lucky to have a husband who is a chemist and he has been "pretty" helpful when I ask him a halfway intelligent question that he can answer about ingredients that we use in soap making and their interactions, etc.  I am a painter/artist and have no background in chemistry aside the fact that I mixed glazes for my pottery in college and oil paint knowledge (I'm an oil painter) - which do me absolutely no good at all in soap making.

My studies have led me to realize the importance of understanding what the properties of oils and butters have to do with the eventual outcome of the soap - EVERYTHING!  I had no idea.  

This venture started out with me interested in making bath bombs like Lush.....  I really did turn a corner when I became totally obsessed with making CP soap!!

I'm still reading everything you are saying about this bubbling - and as long as I keep the silicone mold out of the oven I think I'm good!


----------



## denisedh (Jan 9, 2015)

*Cookie*

Cookie said:


> I'm very new here and I thought my first batch would end up in the bin because it was lye heavy. I decided to let it cure because I wanted to see how it changed during the curing time. I zap tested it from time to time out of curiosity and it always failed. Then after about three weeks it passed the test! Five weeks of curing time and I've been using the soap for about five days now.....it's lovely. Just wondering if it might be worth letting your soaps cure to see what happens?



Cookie - I am definitely looking forward to seeing what happens in the next week - which will be 4 weeks since I made the soap.  I did plane off the edges - but kept them all so I could see - but I really don't think those bubbles are going anywhere - the soap is looking good.

I haven't gotten my nerve up to zap test -- I accidentally got lye on my lips the first time I made soap and it burned for a few hours so i really don't want to even remotely feel that again!!  

denise


----------

