# Oils separating during hot process



## anniet8777 (May 18, 2018)

I’m super frustrated, this is my 3rd batch of hot process soap in which the oils have separated during the cook. Fortunately I was able to re-emulsify with the stick blender but this is becoming too time consuming trying to fix it. I’m wondering if my crock is getting too hot. I have it on low but the batter appears to be boiling. My recipe is 30% lard, 15% gv shortening, 20% CO, 10% SB, 12%HO SF oil, 5%RBO, 8% castor, 7% SF with Aloe as liquid. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I prefer hot process over cold process but would consider a different method for greater success.


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## dixiedragon (May 18, 2018)

I think it might be too hot. What temp are you using?

My process is to cook my soap on low for about 30-45 minutes. I do stick blend occasionally. Then I turn it to high, which bumps it over the edge into Vaseline stage. I do think it is pretty typical for HP to separate.


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## Obsidian (May 18, 2018)

I agree, its too hot. Lard seems especially prone to separate at higher temps. I would shut the crock pot off as soon as you see the soap starting to cook, there should be enough heat to finish the process.


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## dixiedragon (May 18, 2018)

You say aloe as liquid. Read the ingredients - if it's that aloe gel in the pharmacy section, it might contain alcohol. Aloe juice intended for drinking is fine.


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## cmzaha (May 18, 2018)

I would agree with Obsidian. When I hot process I get my batter to a thick trace and do not stir it again until I am ready to stir in my fragrance, cooking it on low. I am guessing yours is cooking to hot


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## anniet8777 (May 18, 2018)

Yeah, I’m thinking my crock is ready to be thrown away. I haven’t had any issues until recently. I have revised my recipe a bit but no major changes. I was thinking of trying my hand at CPOP and/or buying a new crock. 
And I use the aloe juice. No alcohol.


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## dixiedragon (May 18, 2018)

Why throw out your crockpot? Is it doing this on the low setting?


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## anniet8777 (May 18, 2018)

dixiedragon said:


> Why throw out your crockpot? Is it doing this on the low setting?


Yes, I’ve only used it on the low setting.


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## dixiedragon (May 18, 2018)

You might try turning it on for say 5-10 minutes, then turning it back off again.


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## homesteaders (May 18, 2018)

Check your temperature before deciding that the crock pot is the problem. I have a small one that I use for test batches, and a large one for main batches. That big one gets much hotter, but I have just learned to adjust it. I keep it on warm once my oils are melted. 
Also, when I hot process, my recipes always go through a separation stage (applesauce stage). I just let it cook, stirring occasionally (not too often. Too much stirring causes too much water loss). I rarely use the stick blender once it comes to trace. When it's ready, it comes back together, and before I know it, it is at that nice vasoline stage. If my temperature is too low, that separation stage lasts longer. I have found that to be the case, too, when I use a double boiler rather than a crock pot for hp soap. Experiment, but know the temperatures. When I first started making hp soaps (over 20 years ago), I didn't know that some oils really heat up fast and/or accelerate the stages. I didn't have a thermometer back then, or the internet to research. Just an old book written in the early 1900's. 
You might try using a really simple recipe to start if you are new to hp soaps.  On the other hand, if you have been doing hp for awhile and this is a new problem, could be your crock pot, or could be a change in one or more of your ingredients.


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## anniet8777 (May 18, 2018)

homesteaders said:


> Check your temperature before deciding that the crock pot is the problem. I have a small one that I use for test batches, and a large one for main batches. That big one gets much hotter, but I have just learned to adjust it. I keep it on warm once my oils are melted.
> Also, when I hot process, my recipes always go through a separation stage (applesauce stage). I just let it cook, stirring occasionally (not too often. Too much stirring causes too much water loss). I rarely use the stick blender once it comes to trace. When it's ready, it comes back together, and before I know it, it is at that nice vasoline stage. If my temperature is too low, that separation stage lasts longer. I have found that to be the case, too, when I use a double boiler rather than a crock pot for hp soap. Experiment, but know the temperatures. When I first started making hp soaps (over 20 years ago), I didn't know that some oils really heat up fast and/or accelerate the stages. I didn't have a thermometer back then, or the internet to research. Just an old book written in the early 1900's.
> You might try using a really simple recipe to start if you are new to hp soaps.  On the other hand, if you have been doing hp for awhile and this is a new problem, could be your crock pot, or could be a change in one or more of your ingredients.


Thankyou for your helpful information!! I’ve had many successful batches in this same crock but have experimented with slightly changed ingredients. I used to use only lard for my 45 to 55%  but have recently added a bit of the gv shortening lessening my percentage of lard. I think I’ll try turning the crock down to warm and allow it to cook slower.


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## psfred (May 18, 2018)

My HP always separates, just stir it back together.  What you are seeing is the quickly saponifying oils becoming soap and dissolving in the water while the slow oils don't or vise versa.  Looks like wet applesauce with some liquid around the edges?  

If so it's perfectly normal and it will continue to saponify with time and thicken back up.  

My typical batch, done quite hot, usually traces fast, becomes quite thick, turns to applesauce, then thickens again and usually goes to the vaseline stage (although that isn't obvious if it's too dry).  Looks terrible when it "separates" but is fine.


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## Lin19687 (May 18, 2018)

I think maybe we need clarification of "separates" .
I did high Lard with HP years ago and when I got a batch that would separate it would look almost like fatter ricing.  Nothing like wet applesauce with some liquid around, that would be part of the HP cooking process. But I did a Thick trace so maybe I missed that stage ?
My idea of separating is in pic #5 of this thread https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/a-picture-of-ricing-volcanos-separating-overheating.52097/  Sometimes it almost between pic #1 & #5


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## homesteaders (May 18, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> My idea of separating is in pic #5 of this thread https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/a-picture-of-ricing-volcanos-separating-overheating.52097/  Sometimes it almost between pic #1 & #5


Yes, I often see it looking like pictures 2 - 5 at different times. That's normal in HP. If it stays the same for too long, I give it a quick stir and check the temperature because sometimes what's under the surface is quite different. I like that it happens IN the POT , rather than worrying about it happening in the mold!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 19, 2018)

You can also try not using the slow cooker to melt your oils. Melt them on the stove and then add them and the lye after each other in to the slow cooker. Or try the heat transfer method. 

I found that when I used my slow cooker to melt the oils as well as cook the HP, it did just get too hot even on low.


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## psfred (May 19, 2018)

Yup, looks just like coarse ricing.  It's only too hot if it volcanos on you and you don't catch it in time to stir it down.

In fact, if you use high temps (200F oils) fresh hot lye, and "heating" oils or sugar, you can have the soap ready to pour into the mold in 30 min (aka fluid hot process).  Needless to say, you cannot leave the soap if you do this!

Otherwise, since you are going to stir in superfat and scent, it doesn't matter if it separates during the cook, it will smooth out later and you can mix it well.

Don't go short on water though -- dry pasty HP soap is a real pain as it won't adhere together and you can get bars that fall apart into chunks.  Full water, maybe even a little extra boiling water at the end of the cook is necessary.  If you don't see the 'vaseline" stage, you need more more water.


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## Obsidian (May 19, 2018)

I have a hard time believing that a separation stage is normal. True I don't do a lot of HP but most of my batches never separate, its only if they get too hot.
Of all the HP videos I watch, I never see them separate either.


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## anniet8777 (May 19, 2018)

Obsidian said:


> I have a hard time believing that a separation stage is normal. True I don't do a lot of HP but most of my batches never separate, its only if they get too hot.
> Of all the HP videos I watch, I never see them separate either.


This was my thought too. I’ve done many batches with no separation until recently. And my separation wasn’t mild. Nor have I ever noticed my batter boiling until recently so it makes sense to me that my batter just got too hot.


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## homesteaders (May 19, 2018)

When I do hot process really hot (fluid hot process, starting with oils at 200 degrees F), I often hardly notice the stages because it moves SO FAST! Different recipes behave differently. When I cook at lower temperatures, I notice every stage very clearly. I've always heard that "separation stage) called the "applesauce stage". For me, it is just a part of the process. After trace, I put plastic wrap over the crock pot, usually set to low, then let it go while watching to make sure it doesn't volcano out of the pot. Gradually, oil begins to appear on the surface. When I stir, it looks like juicy homemade applesauce. That nearly always happens. I just put the plastic wrap on tight. It all cooks through the stages. When it seems to be turning to vaseline, I give it a stir to help with any oil left floating around. It isn't anything I worry about. Just part of the hot process. If it were me, and my tried and true recipe suddenly started doing something odd, I would think something changed with one of the ingredients, but try to adjust to correct it. If your temperature at the time it separates is super hot, then next time soap a little cooler. If the temperature is low, say under 140, cook a little hotter next time. If your soap is still turning out fine, then I wouldn't worry about it.


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## anniet8777 (May 19, 2018)

homesteaders said:


> When I do hot process really hot (fluid hot process, starting with oils at 200 degrees F), I often hardly notice the stages because it moves SO FAST! Different recipes behave differently. When I cook at lower temperatures, I notice every stage very clearly. I've always heard that "separation stage) called the "applesauce stage". For me, it is just a part of the process. After trace, I put plastic wrap over the crock pot, usually set to low, then let it go while watching to make sure it doesn't volcano out of the pot. Gradually, oil begins to appear on the surface. When I stir, it looks like juicy homemade applesauce. That nearly always happens. I just put the plastic wrap on tight. It all cooks through the stages. When it seems to be turning to vaseline, I give it a stir to help with any oil left floating around. It isn't anything I worry about. Just part of the hot process. If it were me, and my tried and true recipe suddenly started doing something odd, I would think something changed with one of the ingredients, but try to adjust to correct it. If your temperature at the time it separates is super hot, then next time soap a little cooler. If the temperature is low, say under 140, cook a little hotter next time. If your soap is still turning out fine, then I wouldn't worry about it.


Thanks! Sounds like a good plan!


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## SunRiseArts (May 19, 2018)

homesteaders said:


> Yes, I often see it looking like pictures 2 - 5 at different times. That's normal in HP. If it stays the same for too long, I give it a quick stir and check the temperature because sometimes what's under the surface is quite different. I like that it happens IN the POT , rather than worrying about it happening in the mold!




I agree with this.  I used to make HP exclusively.  I know some people say not to touch it, but I stir  (with spatula only, not stick blender) mine every 7 to 10 minutes until is done, and that works for me.


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## Lin19687 (May 20, 2018)

For those that see this kind of separation can you answer a few things?  Because I am just very curious.

Do you see this is Every recipe you use .
What is the oil that is the highest amount ? 
What trace do you bring your batter to before you cook it ?

I am thinking it is a recipe and process that does this.

That time that I had it, Lard was high amount and it was HPOP and I don't think I had the batter very thick.
Never saw this in the Crock pot and I have to wonder if these are the reasons


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## psfred (May 20, 2018)

For me, of rather limited experience, it's a universal.  Solution traces, gets rather thick, then suddenly goes slack and "ricey" for a bit, then smooths out and eventually goes to the "vaseline" stage if I have enough water.

Still zappy at the "applesauce" stage, zap is gone by the vaseline stage, so I assume it's incomplete saponification.  

Less pronounced with shaving soaps high in stearic acid so I would assume different recipes will show the effect differently.  Not a problem as far as I'm concerned.


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## SunRiseArts (May 20, 2018)

When I do HP.  Yes I see it on every recipe.  Usually all my recipes are 1/3 lard or palm, 1/3 olive, 1/3 coconut and an ounce of shea butter or avocado, or rice bran.

I usually soap around 120 for HP, and then let it go through the process.

But as I have mention before.  I do use my spatula to remix every 10 minutes or earler.


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## dixiedragon (May 20, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> For those that see this kind of separation can you answer a few things?  Because I am just very curious.
> 
> Do you see this is Every recipe you use .
> What is the oil that is the highest amount ?
> ...



I don't see it every time I hot process, but I'd say maybe half the time? I use lard at 45%. I get my lye to room temp and my oils melty (but not all the way, there are usually still some white lard blobs). I add the lye water to the oils, blast with the stick blender just until everything is blended (no trace), then pour into the slow cooker.


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## DawninWA (May 20, 2018)

I usually do hot process and mine always goes through the applesauce stage.  I just stir it and after a minute or so, it goes onto the next stage where it finishes.  It's done this with every recipe I've used.


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## homesteaders (May 22, 2018)

Same here. Every recipe. I use different oils and different recipes. Sometimes all olive oil, or all tallow, or different combinations of different oils. Recipe doesn't matter. It always goes through those stages, whether I use a crock pot or a double boiler. I usually go to a light or medium trace before I put the lid on.


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