# Please help me to explain to people why FO is used instead of EO



## JayJay

When I first started making soap I entered with the assumption that natural was always better. A couple oops batches later I quickly decided to try FO instead of wasting expensive EO. I'm not really good with blending my own scents.
None of my EO soaps really smell GOOD. 

The biggest factor of my switch was something that I learned from you ladies and gents here -- EOs are not automatically more safe than FO. EO's are like medicine. I quickly became uncomfortable using them without fully understanding how they effect people.  

Now to my question. I have been giving soap to close friends and family members and asking for feedback. They love my soap, especially the FO scented ones. My brother in particular loved my soap so much that he says he and his wife feel like royalty when using them. He asked me how I was able to create such amazing scents. I told him that I purchased them. His voice dropped to a tone of disappointment and replied "oh". 

After further discussion I told him that I would make him some naturally scented soap, which made him feel better. I have had several similar conversations where people request that I make a natural soap for them. 

One co-worker said she likes my laundry soap scent (which happens to be natural) but wanted a natural baby scented one. I explained that I could do a lavender scent for her but that "baby scent" is usually a FO. She looked confused so I tried to explain that lavender isn't automatically safer, that lots of people react to lavender. I talked for probably 5 minutes trying to explain it all.

Do any of you have a precise way of explaining FO use to people? I think that most people who I know seek handmade soap because it's "natural".  I try to explain that the soap itself is natural, and that I like handmade soap better than synthetic detergents. But  then I follow by saying that natural isn't always better when It comes to scents. 

Can someone who is more articulate than me help me out here? People are so turned off by process things. I have one friend who gets irritated with me when I suggest that FOs are okay and that EO should be used with caution. It almost feels like she thinks I am handing her a bunch of BS.


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## Obsidian

I know some EO's can be unsafe, especially when used at higher amounts but I don't see how the amount used in soap is dangerous unless a person is allergic to a particular one. People can have reactions to FO's just as easily as they can to a EO. 

I used a soap yesterday with a FO that was new to me. Made me break out in red welts all over my face, nothing else in the soap was new or unusual so it had to be the FO. 

as far as trying to explain why you use FO's, just tell them that many scents can't be produced naturally. EO's come from plants and there are no baby scent plants, just like there isn't apple pie or downy plants 
Price is another consideration, lavender EO is quite a lot more $$ then lavender FO, if someone really wants the FO, I would ask them to supply it. (assuming you are gifting the soaps and not selling) 

There are quite a few places you can find blending ideas for EO's. I don't do blends that well either and I don't use many EO's, mainly due to the prices. The EO's that I do use, are generally used by themselves and they smell great. Really no need to do fancy blends.


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## Susie

I will second Obsidian's idea of having them provide the EO they want soap made from.  Give them Bulk Apothecary's website, and give them a list of EO's NOT to buy.  They can then order their own EO that you will make their soap from.  Just be sure to follow safe usage rates for the irritating ones.  This way you are cutting your costs, and they are getting the product they want.


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## IrishLass

This is a good example of why I don't like the term, 'natural' and why I never, ever use the term when referring to my handmade soap. 

If one really thinks about it, the soap we make, even if it's unscented and uncolored, is not natural. After all, where can one find the kind of soap we make in nature? One can't. We have to use ingredients that have been processed (9 times out of 10 I'll wager, chemically so), and then we have to put it through another chemical process (albeit a simple one) to turn the ingredients into soap. Even EOs are processed. The plants, roots or seeds, although natural, all have to go through an extraction process to separate out their oils, and oftentimes, that extraction is an un-natural, chemical one.

I believe we've all been sold a bill of goods with the term, 'natural'. We've all been conditioned somehow to believe it's something that it is not. It's nothing but a 'buzzword' to me that's chalk-full of nothing but a bunch of wishful thinking, and truly has no real meaning. And the marketing people shamelessly play on that to the hilt. 

Sorry- I do tend to go off on a tangent over the term, 'natural'. 

I personally don't use EOs in my soap, except for the rare times I use orange oil or mint. I look at EOs as being medicinal, and they are very precious to me in that regard because it oftentimes takes tons of plant material just to extract a few ounces of the oil. These are just my own personal feelings, but the way I feel about it is that using them in my soap would be akin to me washing my car with something as precious as mother's milk or something. They are just too dear for me to feel good about using them in a wash-off product. If I'm going to use them at all, I want to use them in something that I feel will be of the most benefit.

I don't know if that helps at all, but that's one soap-maker's opinion.


IrishLass


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## Susie

The only reason I don't use FOs is that I have a list of allergies a mile long.  I spent the entire church service yesterday sneezing and eyes streaming because the man next to me was wearing cologne.  

I don't ever bash folks who use FOs.  I sure do wish I could risk using them!

However, if those friends and family members think they want EOs, I think they should have them.  Not at the expense of the person already giving them free soap, though.  If they want them, they can pay for them.


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## dixiedragon

Maybe something like "fragrance oils are specially formulated and tested to survive the soap making process. Essential oils are not as reliable."


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## Seawolfe

I would say that 80-90% of all FO's smell strange to me - sort of perfumy. So I stick with EO's, I like the smells I make and everything is familiar. But I can't pretend they are more natural than FO's - I wasn't there when they were extracted.

I think we have been conditioned to think that anything that smells good is "natural". Otherwise I got nothing.


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## lsg

Some essential oils such as a good sandalwood are excessively expensive because of their rarity.  So a  sandalwood fragrance oil is a good alternitive.


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## not_ally

I use mostly FO's.  For me, EO's generally just do not stick as well - w/some exceptions - and do not offer the range of scents that FO's do.  Explaining them, I am probably not as good as sellers have to be, b/c I give my soap away and it annoys me a little if people are too picky.  

Usually I just tell them that (a) almost everything you use in the world is processed in some way, and soap is a wash off-product; and (b) the amount of "non-natural" things - however they define them (they apparently think way more about them and know way less about them than me, so I just let them ask since I never know where the parade of horribles will go) in my soaps is a fractional amount of those that they buy over the counter.

I get cranky about this, can you tell?  I live in LA, drive a car, eat meat, mostly non-organic veggies, chocolate, full-fat dairy, use a computer for hours every day.  Really, using FO's in soap does not alarm me that much.

Susie:  despite my crankiness, I *completely* understand scent sensitivity.  My sister gets terrible migraines from being around anyone who is wearing perfume/cologne.  My mom likes me to make her lotions super-stinky strong, but she can't wear them around me, and I won't let her wear them in an enclosed space if I can prevent it (I have made her wash them off if I am taking her to the airport, for example.)


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## happygoluckyfarms

*Yes you can have a natural bar its easy*



IrishLass said:


> This is a good example of why I don't like the term, 'natural' and why I never, ever use the term when referring to my handmade soap.
> 
> If one really thinks about it, the soap we make, even if it's unscented and uncolored, is not natural. After all, where can one find the kind of soap we make in nature? One can't. We have to use ingredients that have been processed (9 times out of 10 I'll wager, chemically so), and then we have to put it through another chemical process (albeit a simple one) to turn the ingredients into soap. Even EOs are processed. The plants, roots or seeds, although natural, all have to go through an extraction process to separate out their oils, and oftentimes, that extraction is an un-natural, chemical one.
> 
> I believe we've all been sold a bill of goods with the term, 'natural'. We've all been conditioned somehow to believe it's something that it is not. It's nothing but a 'buzzword' to me that's chalk-full of nothing but a bunch of wishful thinking, and truly has no real meaning. And the marketing people shamelessly play on that to the hilt.
> 
> Sorry- I do tend to go off on a tangent over the term, 'natural'.
> 
> I personally don't use EOs in my soap, except for the rare times I use orange oil or mint. I look at EOs as being medicinal, and they are very precious to me in that regard because it oftentimes takes tons of plant material just to extract a few ounces of the oil. These are just my own personal feelings, but the way I feel about it is that using them in my soap would be akin to me washing my car with something as precious as mother's milk or something. They are just too dear for me to feel good about using them in a wash-off product. If I'm going to use them at all, I want to use them in something that I feel will be of the most benefit.
> 
> I don't know if that helps at all, but that's one soap-maker's opinion.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


 
I make all my own ingredients in my soap or watch the process in which made as the case with my lye . I watched the process with ashes and its pretty natural . I also use only eo's with no problems and its great for a lot of skin conditions like exema (which my family has) . So my soap contains nothing un natural in them , lye , butters , olive oil and natural colorants like beet root power or orange peel plus my essential oils . So its 100% possible to make a natural bar of soap if your method works for you that's awesome but mine works well for me


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## Yooper

Susie said:


> The only reason I don't use FOs is that I have a list of allergies a mile long.  I spent the entire church service yesterday sneezing and eyes streaming because the man next to me was wearing cologne.
> 
> I don't ever bash folks who use FOs.  I sure do wish I could risk using them!
> 
> However, if those friends and family members think they want EOs, I think they should have them.  Not at the expense of the person already giving them free soap, though.  If they want them, they can pay for them.



That's why I started making my own soap.  I have asthma, and while not allergic to things like cigarette smoke or perfume (at least, not technically in the medical sense), I am extremely sensitive to fragrances and other things.

We are in a "perfumed" world.  Most people have candles, air fresheners (even in their car!), and one time I stayed in an ultra-expensive JW Mariott, and had to run through the lobby- literally, a dead run, because they had constant air freshener fragrance spritzing in.  Even in the hospital where I work, the restrooms have air freshener spritzing every 2 minutes or something like that, and I can't use the restroom in a HOSPITAL!  Think about that- a healthcare facility totally oblivious of the fact of people with chronic lung disease being injured by something like that. 

Many people buy things at Bath & Body Works-  but I can't even go in that section of the mall due to the overwhelming fragrances wrafting out.

Because of this, I can smell "fake" smells a mile away.  I can smell a rose, and not even blink, but if someone is wearing rose perfume, my lungs seize up.  Scented deodorants, hairspray, gel, lotion, etc- all can set off a very real illness in me.  That's a bit extreme, but most people don't even smell these things, as they've gone 'nose-blind' due to the over-fragranced environment. 

I think part of the trend to go "natural" is sort of trying to buck the trend of being in our over-fragranced world.  Unfortunately, they don't know how to do that so think that EOs or other natural scents are somehow safe.  We all know that cyanide is natural, as is uranium, but many uninformed consumers are just doing the best they can.

That said, if someone wants an EO, I say give it to them.  But they have to pay for that, as some EOs are frightfully expensive.  They should also know that EOs don't "stick" as well as most FOs and they should then make the choice.


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## happygoluckyfarms

What do you mean Eo's don't stick there are atleast 10 that do stick ! Lavender , orange , wintergreen , peppermint , thyme , rosemary , basil , eucalyptus , lemon grass , cinnamon , pine , cedar and list goes on . I have 2 yr old bars that still have scent ! You just need to know what notes they are : top note (smells strong at first but disapates (like laveneder then you just add more and as it cures it will get less ) medium notes tend to be my favorite they last forever as do high notes . Fo's get lighter as time goes on too . SO its each to their own . Some people like fo's and some like eo's . In my neck of the woods no one will buy an fo's bar . SO its a lot about market too .


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## Yooper

happygoluckyfarms said:


> What do you mean Eo's don't stick there are atleast 10 that do stick ! Lavender , orange , wintergreen , peppermint , thyme , rosemary , basil , eucalyptus , lemon grass , cinnamon , pine , cedar and list goes on . I have 2 yr old bars that still have scent ! You just need to know what notes they are : top note (smells strong at first but disapates (like laveneder then you just add more and as it cures it will get less ) medium notes tend to be my favorite they last forever as do high notes . Fo's get lighter as time goes on too . SO its each to their own . Some people like fo's and some like eo's . In my neck of the woods no one will buy an fo's bar . SO its a lot about market too .



I think I was misquoted.  I didn't say that none of them stick.  I said:  They should also know that EOs don't "stick" as well as most FOs and they should then make the choice.  With CP particularly, many EOs don't tend to stick as well as FOs. 

Some of those EOs you listed are not great safe for skin in large amounts.  So that is important to tell people who want a certain fragrance from EOs.


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## Mommy

happygoluckyfarms said:


> I make all my own ingredients in my soap or watch the process in which made as the case with my lye . I watched the process with ashes and its pretty natural . I also use only eo's with no problems and its great for a lot of skin conditions like exema (which my family has) . So my soap contains nothing un natural in them , lye , butters , olive oil and natural colorants like beet root power or orange peel plus my essential oils . So its 100% possible to make a natural bar of soap if your method works for you that's awesome but mine works well for me



How could you _make_ all of your ingredients? Do you mean that you distill them from their previous form ex. squeeze the oil out of the olives? You dry and grind beets for the beetroot powder? 

I'm just intrigued because I've never heard anyone say this.


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## kchaystack

happygoluckyfarms said:


> I make all my own ingredients in my soap or watch the process in which made as the case with my lye . I watched the process with ashes and its pretty natural . I also use only eo's with no problems and its great for a lot of skin conditions like exema (which my family has) . So my soap contains nothing un natural in them , lye , butters , olive oil and natural colorants like beet root power or orange peel plus my essential oils . So its 100% possible to make a natural bar of soap if your method works for you that's awesome but mine works well for me



Lye made from wood ash is potassium hydroxide.  Now, I am not sure what process you use to make soap- but if you are using wood ash lye, boiling it all day and then salting it out to get bars - you have far more patience than I do.

But if you buy lye from a supplier, and it is NaOH, I guarantee it is not made by running water thru ash.  (I am sure KOH isn't made that way any more)

And if either lye you are buying is near 100% (or in the high 90's) you can bet there is some kind of 'unnatural' process they are using to concentrate that. 

That said, I am glad you are happy with your process, and that it works for you.  I don't buy into the EO soaps having much of an effect after they are put thru saponification myself.  So I use what I think smells good.  SOmetimes that is an FO, sometimes it is peppermint and lemongrass and tea tree EO (that is about all my budget will allow).


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## CTAnton

Just wanted to chime in here..Irish Lass's comment about EO's taking a huge amount of plant material is true...and while most of us conjure up images of a French lavender field  there are EO's like sandalwood that are harvested from the natural environment and demand can't keep up with supply so these trees are harvested surreptitiously,illegally take your pick with oftentimes no thoughts towards maintaining a viable population in the wild...it's not unlike the controversy surrounding palm oil..a natural environment is being altered to supply our needs...(embrace the lard!)
With the new formulations of phthalate free FO's I feel comfortable in using those...I do wonder  if people question what's in their perfumes/colognes/after shaves and deodarants as much....
Soap on!


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## Sapwn

I understand your frustration. 
  I see that people only understand scent. 
  If they like it, the soap is superb. If the scent is weak, they don’t appreciate the soap.
   I use both EOs and FOs but most of my soaps are unscented. My friends prefer and choose the scented ones with FO because they have a clear and intense scent. Exception made for the Aleppo soaps that have this natural executive scent.
  Since I am not selling and I am only giving to friends and relatives, I don’t specify how I made them smell so nice. If they ask, I say that I used FO specifically made for soap use and when I see them disappointed I just smile. I find it really boring to explain why I used FO instead of EO, and I don’t think it would made any difference. 
  People will always prefer an excellent scent, made with 100% natural ingredients.


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## FerrisWheel

I'm not sure you can.  At least to people who already have made up their mind.

It is mental conditioning.  In the same way that people assume that fat is the worst thing you can eat.  Well those that know are aware that fat isn't bad at all.  Things like egg yolk have been vilified in favor of liquid diets, etc...Nowadays wiser people are starting to see that fats (the right sort) are actually decent and good to have.

It takes years for information like this to trickle down to the masses, if ever.

I do wonder for example how bad things like aspartame is.  It is the most heavily tested food additive on earth and very little has come up in the way of side effects.

I'll hold my hand up and say I'd instantly think a product using preservatives was bad until I actually did some research and realized that the alternative is far worse.

Most people's final decision is done with their wallet.  You could use the argument that since soaps are washed off it makes financial sense to give people a delicious smell they enjoy during bath/shower time and then save the essential oils for the nice creams/balms your put on afterward.

Good luck.

Ferris.


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## lenarenee

I'm sorry I don't have the time to help you create an exact response for answering these people. And , I think it's going to be difficult convincing them that "natural" eo'so aren't always the better choice until they do their own research.  

Essential oils contain powerful things.....some are strong enough to kill bacteria and viruses when used at certain strengths. Casually tossing them into body products with the assumption that natural is always safer can and has injured people......and not because of allergies.

Two real life examples of people I personally know:

A doterra salesperson taught the cupping method to my coworker; put a drop or two on your palm, rub hands together, hold over your face and inhale. Without realizing it, her hand touched her eyelid, blinking spread it into her eye which sent her to the ER and  months later is still dealing with it.

A friend with a small cut on her leg Googled essential oils to use to prevent infection and found 
oregano oil mixed in a carrier would work. Uh...it literally burned a hole in her skin and tried to wash it off. (Some eos should not be washed with water, but oil instead). She was in pain for hours and ended up at an urgent care.

Wish I could invite you here to see the top of my wooden kitchen table which is pitted with dents because I forgot to NOT put eos on plastic or wooden surfaces.

You did know to not measure eos into plastic cups, right?  For that matter, you can arrange a demonstration for your doubtful friends....show them what happens when rosemary eo sits on a wood surface, or citrus eo in a plastic cup - especially Styrofoam.

I may be wrong here, but the research I've found makes me believe that fragrance oils go through more safety tests and regulations than essential oils.

You've probably read it here already, but ricin is a natural substance, but that doesn't make it safe!


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## not_ally

Lena, I hate the YL and Doterra folks, they seem to really buy into their own idiocy, but I don't understand the wide-spread hype (and buy-in), and it is dangerous.

Re the non "natural" debate, it just gets so tiring.  I was probably a bit glib in my earlier post, but I research everything I put into my soaps really exhaustively, both w/r/t anectodal sources and more scientific ones.  Every single additive (I have tried many/most of them) and to the greatest degree that I can.  

I freely admit that I am not the greatest soaper in the world, but I am really, really, good at research.  So when I make and give away a soap, I believe that it is safe, and healthy, after 100's, maybe 1000's hours of checking.  When my friends ask me questions about the "natural" aspects of soap it makes me frustrated b/c they know me, and should know that I have checked all the carcinogenity/teratogenicity/morbidity etc, aspects of these things.  It is just frustrating, if people are *that* concerned, the only real alternative might be to move into the rain forest and grow their own food.  Although who knows know long the rain forest will be around at this point ...


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## DeeAnna

"...Lye made from wood ash is potassium hydroxide...."

Actually it's going to be mostly potassium carbonate, possibly with some sodium carbonate depending on the vegetable matter that you used to make the ashes. Wood ash lye can be converted to the hydroxide by reacting the carbonate solution with lime.

Back to answering the OPs question:

I'm in the camp of those who use mostly FOs in soap, but I often use EOs in leave-on products. I use EOs in my shave soap too because I like how EOs work in that type of product. The wide variety of FOs to choose from and the (usually) lower cost of FOs make it a no brainer for me to use them in soap.

I too have gotten the slumped shoulders and the disappointed "oh" from a few "crunchy granola" friends when I use something in my products that they don't think is crunchy enough -- FOs and EDTA in soap and a real emulsifier in lotion rather than beeswax and borax come to mind. (My family knows just how good they've got it -- I get no complaints from them!)

I too have yet to find a way of dealing with it that works. I've come to the conclusion I'm not going to convince someone to abandon their opinion that my stuff isn't "natural" enough to suit them. Opinions like this are knee-jerk reactions, not thoughtfully reasoned-out decisions. So .... mostly I just smile, politely answer any questions with short factual answers, and move on down the conversational road. I just cannot wrap my mind around being put in the position of feeling that I need to meet someone else's philosophical expectations. If that's how they feel, then don't take my soap ... they can make it themselves!

That said, if someone asked me as a favor to use EOs in soap, I'd do it for a good friend or close family member. It would sure be nice if they would foot the bill for the extra cost, as others have suggested.


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## Trix

For me, i have also always preferred FO's in my soap rather than EO's for many reasons. 
When I was buying the soap many years ago, someone explained to me that the scent won't always last or develop properly if it was an EO. 
Besides soap is a wash off product, so its not like any of the eo's benefits remain.
I like eo's in my face masks, and cleansers and massage oils as i inow they work there....but out of my soap.
With soap I'm much more concerned with which carrier oils were used if im looking for benefits, or too make sure its not too drying, than with how it smells.


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## new12soap

"Fragrance oils are designed, manufactured, and tested to be skin-safe. Many of them are made with essential oils. But unfortunately, essential oils are unregulated and you never really know what the strength is. Some are sold as 'full strength' but have been diluted. Many are extracted with solvents, so that's a concern. A lot of them have medicinal properties and can cause severe reactions. Bottom line: I use fragrance oils because I believe they are safer."

Done.

I would not offer to make soap for them if they provide the EO, but I would offer them unscented versions.

HTH


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## happygoluckyfarms

Wow! You all have armed me with quite the arsenal! Thank you for the help. I will try giving the information in the way you suggested. I will resist the temptation to get into debates with people about it and I will definitely ask them to buy the EOs that they want me to use. 

I love how smart you folks are. Thanks again!



		PHP:
	






IrishLass said:


> This is a good example of why I don't like the term, 'natural' and why I never, ever use the term when referring to my handmade soap.
> 
> If one really thinks about it, the soap we make, even if it's unscented and uncolored, is not natural. After all, where can one find the kind of soap we make in nature? One can't. We have to use ingredients that have been processed (9 times out of 10 I'll wager, chemically so), and then we have to put it through another chemical process (albeit a simple one) to turn the ingredients into soap. Even EOs are processed. The plants, roots or seeds, although natural, all have to go through an extraction process to separate out their oils, and oftentimes, that extraction is an un-natural, chemical one.
> 
> I believe we've all been sold a bill of goods with the term, 'natural'. We've all been conditioned somehow to believe it's something that it is not. It's nothing but a 'buzzword' to me that's chalk-full of nothing but a bunch of wishful thinking, and truly has no real meaning. And the marketing people shamelessly play on that to the hilt.
> 
> Sorry- I do tend to go off on a tangent over the term, 'natural'.
> 
> I personally don't use EOs in my soap, except for the rare times I use orange oil or mint. I look at EOs as being medicinal, and they are very precious to me in that regard because it oftentimes takes tons of plant material just to extract a few ounces of the oil. These are just my own personal feelings, but the way I feel about it is that using them in my soap would be akin to me washing my car with something as precious as mother's milk or something. They are just too dear for me to feel good about using them in a wash-off product. If I'm going to use them at all, I want to use them in something that I feel will be of the most benefit.
> 
> I don't know if that helps at all, but that's one soap-maker's opinion.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


 
I member thought about how many plants it takes to make an EO. I have one friend who would be convinced with that argument alone. Thanks. 



CTAnton said:


> Just wanted to chime in here..Irish Lass's comment about EO's taking a huge amount of plant material is true...and while most of us conjure up images of a French lavender field  there are EO's like sandalwood that are harvested from the natural environment and demand can't keep up with supply so these trees are harvested surreptitiously,illegally take your pick with oftentimes no thoughts towards maintaining a viable population in the wild...it's not unlike the controversy surrounding palm oil..a natural environment is being altered to supply our needs...(embrace the lard!)
> With the new formulations of phthalate free FO's I feel comfortable in using those...I do wonder  if people question what's in their perfumes/colognes/after shaves and deodarants as much....
> Soap on!



It seems like people rarely think about perfumes and deodorants as much. One can drive oneself crazy thinking about all possible sources of contamination or possible carcinogens I the things we use. The same coworker who wanted the baby scented laundry soap uses fabric softener. I suggested that she looks into what's in fabric softness. Asked her to google phthalate. 



FerrisWheel said:


> I'm not sure you can.  At least to people who already have made up their mind.
> 
> It is mental conditioning.  In the same way that people assume that fat is the worst thing you can eat.  Well those that know are aware that fat isn't bad at all.  Things like egg yolk have been vilified in favor of liquid diets, etc...Nowadays wiser people are starting to see that fats (the right sort) are actually decent and good to have.
> 
> It takes years for information like this to trickle down to the masses, if ever.
> 
> I do wonder for example how bad things like aspartame is.  It is the most heavily tested food additive on earth and very little has come up in the way of side effects.
> 
> I'll hold my hand up and say I'd instantly think a product using preservatives was bad until I actually did some research and realized that the alternative is far worse.
> 
> Most people's final decision is done with their wallet.  You could use the argument that since soaps are washed off it makes financial sense to give people a delicious smell they enjoy during bath/shower time and then save the essential oils for the nice creams/balms your put on afterward.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Ferris.



I don't get me started with the fat argument. When I first discovered how I could maintain a lower body weight by ditching the low fat diet, I was so excited that I shared it with everyone I knew.  I tried telling them what works for me, how filling it is, how great I feel, and how good my food tastes. People hear me but promptly disregard what I am telling them. I have purchased books that reference studies on the topic, people read it and promptly do the opposite. All the wile struggling to keep weight off.  I have stopped saying anything.  when they give me compliments on my figure I just say "thank you".



DeeAnna said:


> "
> 
> I too have gotten the slumped shoulders and the disappointed "oh"
> 
> I too have yet to find a way of dealing with it that works. I've come to the conclusion I'm not going to convince someone to abandon their opinion that my stuff isn't "natural" enough to suit them. Opinions like this are knee-jerk reactions, not thoughtfully reasoned-out decisions. So .... mostly I just smile, politely answer any questions with short factual answers, and move on down the conversational road. I just cannot wrap my mind around being put in the position of feeling that I need to meet someone else's philosophical expectations. If *that's how they feel, then don't take my soap ... they can make it themselves*_!
> _
> That said, if someone asked me as a favor to use EOs in soap, I'd do it for a good friend or close family member. It would sure be nice if they would foot the bill for the extra cost, as others have suggested.



I need to evolve to this stance.  I guess I still want to convince people that things aren't what they seem.  But I will try to let go of this notion.

Jstar ou process your own lye? Yes

You grow, distill/express all your own EO's? Yes and what I don't I order organic through jedwards 

You grow your own olive trees, collect the olives and express the oil? I buy local fresh pressed organic olive oil .

The butters..do you also grow those trees or shrubs, collect the beans, berries etc and express the butters/oils yourself? I buy them organic from jedwards 

So just incase you don't know no chemical processes are allowed in any organic products . 
I do this because I wanted a 100 percent pure organic ingredients because yes I am one of those hippy people in California and want my life chemical free . Its not for everyone but myself and my customers like it ! You like fragrance oils that's fine I have nothing against them . I also make every meal from scratch too , its a life choice and we are happy !



Yooper said:


> I think I was misquoted. I didn't say that none of them stick. I said: They should also know that EOs don't "stick" as well as most FOs and they should then make the choice. With CP particularly, many EOs don't tend to stick as well as FOs.
> 
> Some of those EOs you listed are not great safe for skin in large amounts. So that is important to tell people who want a certain fragrance from EOs.


The eo's that aren't good in large quanties would be the high notes and so are used in very little amounts ! And I do only cp and they are fine ! Not wanting to argue but I have making them for 10 years its not easy but worth while ! Soap making is about loving what you do . I love making soap and using eo's I feel I have more freedom to create . If you love the way you do it then that's all that matters .


----------



## JayJay

new12soap said:


> "Fragrance oils are designed, manufactured, and tested to be skin-safe. Many of them are made with essential oils. But unfortunately, essential oils are unregulated and you never really know what the strength is. Some are sold as 'full strength' but have been diluted. Many are extracted with solvents, so that's a concern. A lot of them have medicinal properties and can cause severe reactions. Bottom line: I use fragrance oils because I believe they are safer."
> 
> Done.
> 
> I would not offer to make soap for them if they provide the EO, but I would offer them unscented versions.
> 
> HTH


 I should print this out and put it on an index card!



lenarenee said:


> I'm sorry I don't have the time to help you create an exact response for answering these people. And , I think it's going to be difficult convincing them that "natural" eo'so aren't always the better choice until they do their own research.
> 
> Essential oils contain powerful things.....some are strong enough to kill bacteria and viruses when used at certain strengths. Casually tossing them into body products with the assumption that natural is always safer can and has injured people......and not because of allergies.
> 
> Two real life examples of people I personally know:
> 
> A doterra salesperson taught the cupping method to my coworker; put a drop or two on your palm, rub hands together, hold over your face and inhale. Without realizing it, her hand touched her eyelid, blinking spread it into her eye which sent her to the ER and  months later is still dealing with it.
> 
> A friend with a small cut on her leg Googled essential oils to use to prevent infection and found
> oregano oil mixed in a carrier would work. Uh...it literally burned a hole in her skin and tried to wash it off. (Some eos should not be washed with water, but oil instead). She was in pain for hours and ended up at an urgent care.
> 
> Wish I could invite you here to see the top of my wooden kitchen table which is pitted with dents because I forgot to NOT put eos on plastic or wooden surfaces.
> 
> You did know to not measure eos into plastic cups, right?  For that matter, you can arrange a demonstration for your doubtful friends....show them what happens when rosemary eo sits on a wood surface, or citrus eo in a plastic cup - especially Styrofoam.
> 
> I may be wrong here, but the research I've found makes me believe that fragrance oils go through more safety tests and regulations than essential oils.
> 
> You've probably read it here already, but ricin is a natural substance, but that doesn't make it safe!



Scary stuff. I will tey to remember these as well.



dixiedragon said:


> Maybe something like "fragrance oils are specially formulated and tested to survive the soap making process. Essential oils are not as reliable."



Nice!



happygoluckyfarms said:


> I make all my own ingredients in my soap or watch the process in which made as the case with my lye . I watched the process with ashes and its pretty natural . I also use only eo's with no problems and its great for a lot of skin conditions like exema (which my family has) . So my soap contains nothing un natural in them , lye , butters , olive oil and natural colorants like beet root power or orange peel plus my essential oils . So its 100% possible to make a natural bar of soap if your method works for you that's awesome but mine works well for me



Wow- do you sell your soap? How long does it take from start to finish? How do you get to monitor the production of your ingredients? I hope you don't mind all the questions but it sounds like you have quite an elaborate set up and I am curious about how you do it.


----------



## kumudini

I think it would do a lot of good to actually think for yourself, why you want to use what you are using. Consider all the view points expressed here, may be do your own research on both EOs and FOs, find the pros and cons, cost efficiency, environmental issues, whatever is more important to you. Once you've convinced yourself it would be much easier to explain your decision to others whether they will be convinced or not is a different issue, not in your hands.

I didn't find EO use to be dangerous. With any EO or FO, you have to know before hand what's the safe usage rate, whether they are body safe and such. As long as you are cautious, there is no danger, only a possibility of allergy for some users.
 I initially only bought EOs, but then, like IL, I felt those are too precious to be used in a wash off product. So now, I'm looking to buy FOs but since there's so much choice and so much FO use apparently relies on luck, I'm taking it slow with my FO purchase, but I will get to a place where most of my soaps will be scented with FOs.


----------



## Yooper

Maybe consider offering your friends/family unscented versions?  

I know it's strange at first, because everything is scented usually, but I have found that I LOVE the smell of unscented soap.  I make beer soap as well as milk soaps and regular soaps, and they are pretty darn nice unscented!

My salt soap is stark white, and unscented.  It smells a little like soap, but otherwise it's totally and completely scent-free.  It's wonderful!


----------



## not_ally

I actually really like the cleanness/pureness of an unscented soap too.  I don't make many of them, just for my sister - b/c she is is sensitive to artificial scents/FO's, so for her it is unscented and EO's only - but it always surprises me - each time - when I realize how nice soap smells just by itself.


----------



## JayJay

Which kinds of soap do you like unscented? 

I've tried my sensitive/dry skin soap unscented and all could smell in the shower was lard. Most of my soaps have lard in them (thanks Susie)  I know that some people like the scent of lard soaps. But it's not my favorite smell. I think that they smell nice under another scent if that makes sense. It contributes something nice as an undernote. (I think I just made up a word).


----------



## not_ally

I use a basic recipe which includes lots of lard, b/w 60 and 75%, usually, w/the rest made up of castor, olive and coconut.  I add stuff to make it lather, deal w/hard water, and harden the soap on cutting (I use aloe for liquid, EDTA, sodium lactate and sugar solution, they all have their own purposes, plus add to lather.)  And then sometimes other stuff as well, usually cucumber or avocado purees, or other milks in place of the CM sometimes.  So it is a mix, but it always smells nice unscented, at least to me.  I know that I've read here that there are people who are really sensitive to animal fats and can smell them even after cure, but I cannot, at all.  The soap just smells really clean.  

I actually keep a bar or two of the unscented stuff at the kitchen sink to wash my hands when I am feeding my dogs, I have read that they are are extraordinarily sensitive to scent, so I don't want any fragrance on my hands when I deal with their food.  Although they are little piggies, it is probably over-cautious


----------



## Jstar

happygoluckyfarms said:


> I make all my own ingredients in my soap or watch the process in which made as the case with my lye . I watched the process with ashes and its pretty natural . I also use only eo's with no problems and its great for a lot of skin conditions like exema (which my family has) . So my soap contains nothing un natural in them , lye , butters , olive oil and natural colorants like beet root power or orange peel plus my essential oils . So its 100% possible to make a natural bar of soap if your method works for you that's awesome but mine works well for me



You process your own lye?

You grow, distill/express all your own EO's?

You grow your own olive trees, collect the olives and express the oil? 

The butters..do you also grow those trees or shrubs, collect the beans, berries etc and express the butters/oils yourself?

The powders, do you also grow the trees and plants, dry, and grind these powders yourself?

Im thinking no, but I could be wrong....

More than likely {unless Im wrong of course} you are purchasing already 'processed' ingredients like the rest of us..some of which are 'chemically processed' which is not 'naturally occurring' in nature.

Moving along...

I prefer to use FO's because of price and the availability of so many different scents that are found nowhere in nature. I dont use many EO's, but what I do use, goes into products that aren't wash off.

Im going to agree with the rest...if the person wants EO's, let them know they can purchase the EO's and you will be happy to make them soap with it..otherwise offer them unscented or FO's..or none at all 

ETA: I also don't tell people its 'all natural'..I prefer to say 'handmade'


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

happygoluckyfarms said:


> Jstar ou process your own lye? Yes
> 
> You grow, distill/express all your own EO's? Yes and what I don't I order organic through jewards
> 
> You grow your own olive trees, collect the olives and express the oil? I buy local fresh pressed organic olive oil .
> 
> The butters..do you also grow those trees or shrubs, collect the beans, berries etc and express the butters/oils yourself? I buy them organic from jewards
> 
> So just incase you don't know no chemical processes are allowed in any organic products .
> I do this because I wanted a 100 percent pure organic ingredients because yes I am one of those hippy people in California and want my life chemical free . Its not for everyone but myself and my customers like it !  You like fragrance oils that's fine I have nothing against them . I also make every meal from scratch too , its a life choice and we are happy !




For me, and I know I risk opening the can of worms further still, it still doesn't make your soap natural - because YOU made it. 

Now, if the water was to seep through the ashes and the olives were to weep their oil or be squeezed in the course of nature and these two just happened to come together - THAT is a natural soap, as no person had a hand in it. 

A birdhouse can hardly be called natural even if it was made from wood with wooden nails, even though wood is natural, because someone had to make it. The end result itself is not found in nature, it has to be made. 

While your soap might be made with all natural ingredients, it is not in itself natural.


----------



## TVivian

"And want my life chemical free" haha... Oh boy.


----------



## not_ally

happygoluckyfarms said:


> Jstar ou process your own lye? Yes
> 
> You grow, distill/express all your own EO's? Yes and what I don't I order organic through jedwards
> 
> You grow your own olive trees, collect the olives and express the oil? I buy local fresh pressed organic olive oil .
> 
> The butters..do you also grow those trees or shrubs, collect the beans, berries etc and express the butters/oils yourself? I buy them organic from jedwards
> 
> So just incase you don't know no chemical processes are allowed in any organic products .
> I do this because I wanted a 100 percent pure organic ingredients because yes I am one of those hippy people in California and want my life chemical free . Its not for everyone but myself and my customers like it ! You like fragrance oils that's fine I have nothing against them . I also make every meal from scratch too , its a life choice and we are happy !



At the risk of repeating what has already been said here, we ALL make our own soap because we think it is better than store bought stuff.  The "natural" thing is part of that, but it is a spectrum.  No one, including you, can make completely "natural" soap because no one in this country - and probably any other - can purchase ingredients that are completely unprocessed.  I have no idea who Jedwards is, perhaps they are an excellent purveyor, but they have some kind of process that you are not directly involved in overseeing.    

Lots of people here stick to EO's.  Lots use only FOs.  Probably most do a mix.  But it is unrealistic and untrue to claim that anyone can make a totally "natural" soap, if that has any objectively definable meaning.


----------



## happygoluckyfarms

Natural IE: no chemicals that's it you mean to tell me because I go pick a vegetable from my garden and cook it and eat it , it wasn't natural or if juice an apple its not natural . Yes it is no chemicals are used in the making of anything there for its a natural product made from nature and no chemicals were used to extract it . So where can you say its not natural . NOW KAYTLIN JENNER THATS NOT NATURAL LOL ! So I need to say to you guys I have a chemical free organic soap then seems silly !


----------



## not_ally

I'm afraid your response was somewhat unintelligible, so I don't understand it.  If you could spell it out very clearly, it would be better.

ETA:  Also, please do not make homophobic/gender/sexuality based remarks, they are against the TOS.  And odious, at least to some of us, as well.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

'll use a different example. 

You have apples and corn and chickens and cows and all the things that you need to have the ingredients for an apple pie. Super - they are all natural. You make an apple pie, then it is not natural as you made it. 

Your soaps as you make them do not occur in nature. They are not natural. 

Of course, the larger issue is that there is no real meaning to the word 'natural' anymore and so people say "to me natural means this........." So it can end up like a rich man and a pauper discussing exactly how much money can be considered "a lot of money"


----------



## Jstar

Oh my..dont even get me started on 'organics'

I grow my own veggies..they grow naturally all by themselves..all I do is stick a seed in the ground and sling some water at them...but they do their veggie thing all by themselves..I dont use pesticides so no chemicals in them 'from me'...just whatever happens to be lingering around in the dirt {um, yea..dont get me started on those chemicals falling from the sky either}

Thats natural. If I grind them up and slap em in soap however, thats 'homemade soap with homegrown pureed veggies'...THAT does NOT occur in nature...otherwise Id be out picking me some veggie soap everyday hahahaha

Seriously, its great you dont want chemicals in anything..sadly they are everywhere..and I do mean everywhere...so like the rest of us, even if you grow everything yourself, you're going to get chemicals from somewhere..we all just do the best we can to make products that are as safe as we can.

Anyway, you can't state that you have complete natural soap because thats technically not possible...soap does not grow on trees. {neither does money for that matter..Dang!}

Oh, and for what its worth, Jedwards is an 'Importer'/Wholesale/Distributor with heavy emphasis on the word 'importer'.


----------



## FerrisWheel

JayJay said:


> PHP:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get me started with the fat argument. When I first discovered how I could maintain a lower body weight by ditching the low fat diet, I was so excited that I shared it with everyone I knew.  I tried telling them what works for me, how filling it is, how great I feel, and how good my food tastes. People hear me but promptly disregard what I am telling them. I have purchased books that reference studies on the topic, people read it and promptly do the opposite. All the wile struggling to keep weight off.  I have stopped saying anything.  when they give me compliments on my figure I just say "thank you".



When taking advise.  I always take it off people who can either do something I want to do or have achieved something I want to achieve.  I hear/see people who know sod all dishing out all kinds of advise.  I knew of a guy who to be fair to him is huge and he told someone that all the exercise he was doing was bad for his heart.  I was actually stunned.


----------



## Jstar

Im not a doctor, but I do know that being overweight puts more of a strain on your heart..and for someone who is obese I would imagine it wouldn't be good to do alot of exercise at one time..


----------



## kdaniels8811

I have to jump in here on the FO/EO/no scent debate.  I make all kinds of cold process soap, unscented, EO only, FO only, or a combination of FO and EO's.  My best sellers are the soaps scented with fragrance oils.  I have had many many times a customer come up and ask for unscented or essential oil only soaps and I point them out.  Invariably, they purchase the fragrance oil soaps!  I have one customer that is certain that he is allergic to fragrance oils, yet he buys my lilac scented soap though I told him there is no lilac essential oil, it is a man made fragrance oil.  Last week he brought a friend, bragging that my soaps are so superior he is able to use them even though they are not scented with essential oils.  Hmmmm...  I just smile and sell him some more.  I do purchase good quality phalate free scents but it is funny what people think they want and what they actually want!


----------



## not_ally

Not to beat a dead horse (OK, I know I am), but after this thread I came across a post from the person here who was insisting that everything in their soaps was natural.  It was about their latest batch using MP.  Now, I am an MP fan, but that did definitely not drop off of a tree.


----------



## TVivian

not_ally said:


> Not to beat a dead horse (OK, I know I am), but after this thread I came across a post from the person here who was insisting that everything in their soaps was natural.  It was about their latest batch using MP.  Now, I am an MP fan, but that did definitely not drop off of a tree.




NA.. I just love ya.. You've got quite a memory. Remind me never to get on your bad side hahaha...


----------



## not_ally

TVivian said:


> NA.. I just love ya.. You've got quite a memory. Remind me never to get on your bad side hahaha...



I am a lawyer, we remember all kinds of things that come up in writing, it is useful in the trade.  We are like elephants 

ETA:  I think you are safe from the nooks and crannies of my evil elephant memory, though Viv, no need to worry!


----------



## JayJay

not_ally said:


> Not to beat a dead horse (OK, I know I am), but after this thread I came across a post from the person here who was insisting that everything in their soaps was natural.  It was about their latest batch using MP.  Now, I am an MP fan, but that did definitely not drop off of a tree.



Wow. That is quite the contradiction.

 Maybe folks on this forum convinced her to expand her herizons? 

You all pretty quickly convinced me to try FOs ... lard... And sugar...and salt!


----------



## gigisiguenza

JayJay said:


> Wow. That is quite the contradiction.
> 
> Maybe folks on this forum convinced her to expand her herizons?
> 
> You all pretty quickly convinced me to try FOs ... lard... And sugar...and salt!



LOL JayJay they converted me to lard in a blink, tossed my elitist "all natural" nonsense in my face and corrected me on that, and now have me seriously considering micas and oxides. These folks are downright dangerous LOL


----------



## TwystedPryncess

I cannot live without my micas and oxides.  Just sayin......


----------



## DeeAnna

"...Maybe folks on this forum convinced her to expand her herizons?..."

Well, if it's the person I'm thinking of (not Gigi, by the way), I suspect she moved on to find others in better agreement with her views. Thankfully....!


----------



## dixiedragon

Was that the poster who also insisted that she made EVERYTHING that went into her soaps or observed it being made?


----------



## DeeAnna

Yep! I was not comfortable with the safety and accuracy of some of the soaping advice given, and a comment this person made about another individual was utterly inappropriate and unnecessary. I have no patience with either issue.


----------



## not_ally

Yes, that was the one.  I had a brief moment of horror just now thinking I had remembered the wrong poster, but checked.  JJ, Her MP thread predated this thread, so I don't think our collective reasoning changed her mind, it is a flat out inconsistency.


----------



## dixiedragon

Scent wise, I generally prefer lavender EO to lavender FOs. Lavender EO is more complex, and it is also harsher, more medicinal, more herbal, more woody. Which are I know are not good sounding adjectives, but I like that about lavender EO. What really ticks me off is things labeled lavender scented that smell like lilac. I mean...I know they are both purple and they are both flowers and they both start with L...but seriously!


----------



## IrishLass

gigisguenza said:
			
		

> LOL JayJay they converted me to lard in a blink, tossed my elitist "all natural" nonsense in my face and corrected me on that, and now have me seriously considering micas and oxides. These folks are downright dangerous LOL


 
WooHoo! One down, hundreds more to go!  :razz:




not_ally said:


> Her MP thread predated this thread, so I don't think our collective reasoning changed her mind, it is a flat out inconsistency.


 
To be completely fair, though, she only made the MP because a pipe in her house burst and destroyed much of her stock that she was planning to bring to a craft fair/show. The MP was only a last-ditch effort to help fill in the gap left by her missing, destroyed stock. 



IrishLass


----------



## not_ally

But she still used it IL, despite apparently thinking that "non-natural" ingredients are horrible and bad for people.  If I felt that way I would never use MP (let along give/sell it to others), no matter what the situation was.  Also, she was proud enough of the soap to post it for people's comments ....

I am probably being overly critical here, but I still think she hoisted herself on her own petard with that.


----------



## IrishLass

not_ally said:


> But she still used it IL, despite apparently thinking that "non-natural" ingredients are horrible and bad for people. If I felt that way I would never use MP, no matter what the situation was. Also, she was proud enough of the soap to post it for people's comments ....


 
Very good point not_ally. You are quite right. I had forgotten the most obvious point that she did indeed go ahead with the MP stop-gap measure in spite of her strongly-espoused 'all-natural' stance, and also in spite of being firmly advised against it by those who responded to her inquiry. 




			
				not_ally said:
			
		

> I am probably being overly critical here, but I still think she hoisted herself on her own petard with that


 
Another good point. You are definitely right about that.........and I love your 'hoist/petard' expression so much that I hope to find an opportunity to use it in a sentence today. 

Say, did anyone ever tell you that you'd make a good lawyer.  


IrishLass


----------



## not_ally

I don't even know what a "petard" is, exactly, but I like the picture of someone hoisting themselves on their own!  I know it is not a good thing, though, I try to keep my own petard in a safe place


----------



## IrishLass

not_ally said:


> I don't even know what a "petard" is, exactly, but I like the picture of someone hoisting themselves on their own! I know it is not a good thing, though, I try to keep my own petard in a safe place


 
You know what's really funny, not_ally? I don't even know what a petard is either (although I shall Google it today), but I quickly found my opportunity to use it, and guess what? It was on myself!  I guess one should be careful what they hope for! 

IrishLass 


ETA: A petard is a small bell-shaped bomb used in breaching a wall or gate.


----------



## amd

Haha... if my vocab is any good at all... Petard is a bomb?

Hey, NA, you da petard! [snort] Okay.. so slow day in engineering does not improve my sense of humor...


----------



## kchaystack

amd said:


> Haha... if my vocab is any good at all... Petard is a bomb?
> 
> Hey, NA, you da petard! [snort] Okay.. so slow day in engineering does not improve my sense of humor...



Yes, it is a bomb.  

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hoist-by-your-own-petard.html


----------



## not_ally

That is so funny, in my imagination I thought of it as something like a lance/jousting stick that stuck you in your own butt if you used it the wrong way   I think I still always managed to use it right, though!


----------



## kumudini

I just laughed so hard B, you are quite silly in the most fun way.


----------



## not_ally

amd said:


> Hey, NA, you da petard! [snort] Okay.. so slow day in engineering does not improve my sense of humor...



Amd, I afraid that is quite true, I *am* da petard, more frequently than I would like


----------



## gigisiguenza

The phrase hoisted on their own petard is an insult referring to being hoisted by your own fart (like trying to fart in secret, but got caught cuz it lifted you up n gave away your secret).... in other words, you showed your a$$ 

ETA that's what the little bomb refers to lol


----------



## traderbren

So... Someone just called Not_Ally a little fart????


----------



## SunWolf

I thought this was insightful!!   LOL


> *Meaning of the Phrase*
> The phrase means to be injured by the device that you intended to use to injure others.
> A literal example from our own time is illustrative. In 2009, on a  Northwest Airlines flight from a Amsterdam to Detroit, Umar Farouk  Abdulmutallab, now known affectionately as the Underwear Bomber, lit his own crotch on fire trying to detonate a bomb he had hid in his skivvies.
> That, my friends, is what it means to be hoist with your own petard.


----------



## not_ally

OMG, who called me a little fart?  I will hoist them on my petard


----------



## gigisiguenza

traderbren said:


> So... Someone just called Not_Ally a little fart????



HAhahahaha I guess they did... hahahahahahaha....


----------



## gigisiguenza

not_ally said:


> OMG, who called me a little fart?  I will hoist them on my petard



Oh man Ally I'm ducking and covering now....

Take cover folks.... Ally is gonna crop dust the forum trying to get the offender! 

I'm in tears here with the mental image of you running around, crop dusting the place, yelling "I'll get you, you can can't hide!"

LMAO


----------



## not_ally

We height challenged types w/Napolean complexes are sensitive and violent, we are subject to whipping out our petards at the least possible provocation!  I am sure there is a Criminal Minds episode about us


----------



## dibbles

LOL. I love this forum.


----------



## gigisiguenza

not_ally said:


> We height challenged types w/Napolean complexes are sensitive and violent, we are subject to whipping out our petards at the least possible provocation!  I am sure there is a Criminal Minds episode about us



Lmaowtime ... you kill me Ally, I swear.... Hahahahaha


----------



## JayJay

Oh my goodness. I wish I had seen this thread earlier today. I needed a good laugh!


----------



## JayJay

DeeAnna said:


> "...Maybe folks on this forum convinced her to expand her herizons?..."
> 
> Well, if it's the person I'm thinking of (not Gigi, by the way), I suspect she moved on to find others in better agreement with her views. Thankfully....!



Maybe you're right. She never did answer my question about how she manages it all.


----------



## JayJay

not_ally said:


> Yes, that was the one.  I had a brief moment of horror just now thinking I had remembered the wrong poster, but checked.  JJ, Her MP thread predated this thread, so I don't think our collective reasoning changed her mind, it is a flat out inconsistency.



You are thorough N/A.  Well then I guess it's settled. Case closed?


----------



## not_ally

JayJay said:


> You are thorough N/A.  Well then I guess it's settled. Case closed?



I think so, barring the unlikely possibility she comes back and lambasts us all (and then I will beat her with my petard.  I am sorry, I think I am experiencing some petard intoxication, or something )  I hope your day got better!


----------



## boyago

not_ally said:


> We height challenged types w/Napolean complexes are sensitive and violent, we are subject to whipping out our petards at the least possible provocation!  I am sure there is a Criminal Minds episode about us



This is one of my all time favorite posts.


----------



## gigisiguenza

not_ally said:


> I think so, barring the unlikely possibility she comes back and lambasts us all (and then I will beat her with my petard.  I am sorry, I think I am experiencing some petard intoxication, or something )  I hope your day got better!



Hahahahahahaha I now have a mental image of you trying to beat her with a fart.... oh man I'm dying here hahaha hahaha


----------



## kumudini

In my mind I can hear all the giggles and exploding laughter and you n_a, accomplished this single handed. Wow!!


----------



## not_ally

Ok, this has gone too far!  I am willing to take on many challenges single handed, but this is not one of them


----------



## gigisiguenza

not_ally said:


> Ok, this has gone too far!  I am willing to take on many challenges single handed, but this is not one of them



Hahahahaha


----------



## holga_me

not_ally said:


> I don't even know what a "petard" is, exactly, but I like the picture of someone hoisting themselves on their own!  I know it is not a good thing, though, I try to keep my own petard in a safe place




in my native language it`s a small firecracker


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## gigisiguenza

holga_me said:


> in my native language it`s a small firecracker



Close enough LOL


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## JayJay

not_ally said:


> i think so, barring the unlikely possibility she comes back and lambasts us all (and then i will beat her with my petard.  I am sorry, i think i am experiencing some petard intoxication, or something )  i hope your day got better!



rofl


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## rparrny

JayJay said:


> Wow. That is quite the contradiction.
> 
> Maybe folks on this forum convinced her to expand her herizons?
> 
> You all pretty quickly convinced me to try FOs ... lard... And sugar...and salt!


Yes, I was an EO slut until I was swayed by the members here.  Tried my first FO in my last batch (I thought you were talking about _me_).  I still love EO but I no longer snub FOs, I can get combinations of scents that I can't get in an EO and for a fraction of the price.


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## not_ally

R, you should never think people are talking about you here (unless it is on the same thread and they *are* actually talking about you!)  Folks are pretty upfront, they won't take petty side-swipes.

I am glad you are checking out FO's.  They are not for everyone - I make some soaps w/just eo's (or unscented) for my sister, who cannot tolerate FO's, susie here is like that too, who knows how many folks in the general population, and in increasing numbers b/c of increasing scent irritants in the environment.  But FO's are so great when you *can* use them.  

I am pretty much OK using anything that I have researched and can defend, "natural" or not.  And am OK w/people disagreeing w/me, as long as they can support their position.  Ie; telling me that something that I use is crap and dangerous because it is non-natural, without being able to provide a principled, reasoned argument, is not at all convincing or agreeable to me.

Wow, I am beating that poor old dead horse into a pulp.  I was going to delete this post, but I took too much time to type it :smile:


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## houseofwool

Honestly?  I hate to use FOs. Normally all of our soaps are made with EOs because my sister is allergic to something in FOs. As in saw an allergist and was tested allergic. We have one customer for whom we make custom soaps using FOs. 

I cannot wait to get this latest set out of my house. One of them makes my chest hurt when I am too close to it for an extended period of time. I really, really don't want to deal with the long term consequences of them.


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## JayJay

houseofwool said:


> Honestly?  I hate to use FOs. Normally all of our soaps are made with EOs because my sister is allergic to something in FOs. As in saw an allergist and was tested allergic. We have one customer for whom we make custom soaps using FOs.
> 
> I cannot wait to get this latest set out of my house. One of them makes my chest hurt when I am too close to it for an extended period of time. I really, really don't want to deal with the long term consequences of them.



That sounds horrible.


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## not_ally

houseofwool said:


> Honestly?  I hate to use FOs. Normally all of our soaps are made with EOs because my sister is allergic to something in FOs. As in saw an allergist and was tested allergic. We have one customer for whom we make custom soaps using FOs.
> 
> I cannot wait to get this latest set out of my house. One of them makes my chest hurt when I am too close to it for an extended period of time. I really, really don't want to deal with the long term consequences of them.



Clearly FO's are not a good choice for *you* ....


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## rparrny

not_ally said:


> R, you should never think people are talking about you here (unless it is on the same thread and they *are* actually talking about you!)  Folks are pretty upfront, they won't take petty side-swipes.


Don't get me wrong, I wasn't insulted, we had just talked about right before I read the post and I thought...hmmm.
I had been pulling my hair out finding a guy scent that I didn't hate with my EOs and ordered some bay rum and just love it!
Other than basics like lavender and eucalyptus for my soaps, most of my EOs were used for medicines and I've been trying to broaden my horizons with scents in my soaps...it's a lot harder to do than I imagined...but then again I am often accused of being OCD...that's my medical background kicking in...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

houseofwool said:


> Honestly?  I hate to use FOs. Normally all of our soaps are made with EOs because my sister is allergic to something in FOs. As in saw an allergist and was tested allergic. We have one customer for whom we make custom soaps using FOs.
> 
> I cannot wait to get this latest set out of my house. One of them makes my chest hurt when I am too close to it for an extended period of time. I really, really don't want to deal with the long term consequences of them.




This is why I think that proper fume filtering masks (not just dust masks) are wise for people making a lot of scented soap. It might be overkill in 90% of the situations, but when I get a face full of FO or even a strong EO, I don't actually have to breathe it in. 

Not meaning to scaremonger in any way at all, just saying that it can be a solution for those who want to use FOs but have trouble with them


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## kumudini

houseofwool said:


> Honestly?  I hate to use FOs. Normally all of our soaps are made with EOs because my sister is allergic to something in FOs. As in saw an allergist and was tested allergic. We have one customer for whom we make custom soaps using FOs.
> 
> I cannot wait to get this latest set out of my house. One of them makes my chest hurt when I am too close to it for an extended period of time. I really, really don't want to deal with the long term consequences of them.



I think you need to get tested as well for allergies. Chest hurting could be a symptom of airways constricting, as in an asthma attack, or an acid reflux, another way allergy could present. Those N 95 masks that TEG mentioned will help avoid breathing those scents in but allergies are seldom respiratory alone.
Those allergens could gain access to the blood stream in several ways, skin being the easiest route. So please get tested and totally avoid things you are allergic to.


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## JayJay

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> This is why I think that proper fume filtering masks (not just dust masks) are wise for people making a lot of scented soap. It might be overkill in 90% of the situations, but when I get a face full of FO or even a strong EO, I don't actually have to breathe it in.
> 
> Not meaning to scaremonger in any way at all, just saying that it can be a solution for those who want to use FOs but have trouble with them



I have considered wearing a mask for two reasons. The first is that I don't smell lye fumes before I start coughing from them. The second reason is because EO's have given me stomach aches and headaches just about every time I have worked with them. The fact that they make me feel sick is one of the main reasons why I was able to listen when people told me that EOs are potent medicine, not just scents. Interestingly, I haven't ever gotten sick from smelling FOs.   But I do realize that everyone is different.


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## rparrny

JayJay said:


> The fact that they make me feel sick is one of the main reasons why I was able to listen when people told me that EOs are potent medicine, not just scents.



Yup, ya got that right.  In fact some EOs are toxic used straight on the skin.  Bitter Almond EO has prussic acid...AKA cyanide!


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## JayJay

Wow- that's good to know.


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