# Neutralize or not?



## Carl (Dec 1, 2018)

I'm starting to dive into liquid soap now.

There's lots of great tutorials and videos out on the web.  I noticed some of them neutralize the soap at the end with a borax solution, but others do not.

What determines if you need to do this or not?


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 1, 2018)

There’s an awesome thread that Irishlass posted on LS. No neutralizing needed. Simple and awesome.


----------



## Carl (Dec 1, 2018)

Yes, that was one of the ones I've read.


----------



## Susie (Dec 2, 2018)

If you have a positive superfat - at least neutral (0) superfat, there is no need to neutralize.  Neutralization was "in-fashion" back in the old days of Catherine Failor (some people still do this, but they mostly all started back then).  We now have great soap calculators that allow us to accurately have a superfat without any excess oils.  No need to neutralize, just use a good soap calculator with a 0-3% superfat.


----------



## foggyfir (Dec 2, 2018)

Susie said:


> We now have great soap calculators that allow us to accurately have a superfat without any excess oils.


Do we though? I know that most calculators are accurate but I often see oils with variations of 5% in SAP values between manufacturers. Whenever you're dealing with natural products, there will be some variance from batch to batch. I imagine using multiple oils will help to average it out if one's a little over and the other's a little under.

I just get a little nervous and that is probably why I tend to stick to bar soap. Any words of wisdom to allay my fears?


----------



## DeeAnna (Dec 2, 2018)

Yes, we do have good online soap calculators available in recent years, but it hasn't been all that long ago that Soapcalc and the other oldest of the online calcs simply didn't exist. The internet wasn't available to most people in the US until the early-to-mid 1990s. The earliest archive on the Wayback Machine of Soapcalc is from 2009, although Soapcalc might be older than that.

Before then, one did the calculations by hand and the results were just as prone to the same types of errors and variability as the results from online calcs.

Certainly the online calcs are good enough for the average to experienced soap maker to get consistent results when making liquid soap as well as bar soap. Bar soap, being a solid material, hides a lot of sins, and liquid soap is less tolerant of inaccuracies.

Those inaccuracies are there whether one makes liquid or bar soap, however. It's just that problems are easier to see in liquid soap and easier to blissfully ignore in bar soap.

You can't go by what you see in the forums on SMF as being representative of the entire liquid soap makers out there. We generally hear from the few are in trouble, not the majority who are successful. I think there are a lot of people making liquid soap and having few or no problems.

Here's something you can do -- Open your preferred soap recipe calc and set up a liquid soap recipe using Susie's parameters, then make the soap and evaluate the results.

Is the paste zappy even after a few days and even if you're sure you made the soap correctly? In other words, is the recipe lye heavy in a way that can be traced back to the recipe calculations?

Do you see any white fatty layer on the diluted soap that indicates the soap is too fat heavy even if you've made the soap correctly? In other words is the excess superfat something you think you can trace back to the recipe calculations?

If you don't see either of those issues, then the calc does a good enough job to pass muster.​
Even if you do have excess fat or excess alkali, those problems can often be corrected in liquid soap, although it's certainly easier to get it right the first time than to fix problems.


----------



## Susie (Dec 4, 2018)

I know how good the soap I make is.  I know I make it using these lye calculators.  I also (from much experimentation with heavy duty record keeping) know exactly how far I can maximize my superfat over that 3% amount when using which oils from which suppliers when their expiration date has X amount of time left on it, all without making lye heavy soap that then requires neutralization.  But I have done my homework. 

For your purposes, you need to stay within the 0-3% superfat range of Soapcalc.net, or Soapee.com.  I have only used those two for liquid soapmaking, so I will not speak to other soap calculators.


----------



## Loralei (Dec 6, 2018)

@DeeAnna I am quoting part of your last post "Do you see any white fatty layer on the diluted soap that indicates the soap is too fat heavy even if you've made the soap correctly? In other words is the excess superfat something you think you can trace back to the recipe calculations?"

I've made liquid soap, at 0% SF - it looks amazing from the start, and after a while, I see a glob of white "goop" at the bottom of the bottle. Is that excess fat, or could it be a reaction with the EOs that I'm using? (TIA)


----------



## DeeAnna (Dec 6, 2018)

Stuff that's settled to the bottom is not likely to be fatty acids. If your soap gets slightly cloudy _after_ adding fragrance, the sediment is probably from the fragrance reacting with the soap. If your soap is slightly cloudy _before _adding EOs, the sediment probably comes from whatever is making the soap cloudy. Could be unsaponifiable materials from the fats or additives you might have used in the soap. Or soap scum if you use tap water to make and dilute the soap. Or something else. Hard to say.


----------



## Loralei (Dec 9, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> Stuff that's settled to the bottom is not likely to be fatty acids. If your soap gets slightly cloudy _after_ adding fragrance, the sediment is probably from the fragrance reacting with the soap. If your soap is slightly cloudy _before _adding EOs, the sediment probably comes from whatever is making the soap cloudy. Could be unsaponifiable materials from the fats or additives you might have used in the soap. Or soap scum if you use tap water to make and dilute the soap. Or something else. Hard to say.



I only use distilled water,  and my soap is crystal clear before adding EOs.. then, after a few weeks, a white blob forms on the bottom of my container.. and not always, so I'm guessing EO related. Thanks for your insights!


----------



## AliOop (Dec 23, 2018)

Susie said:


> Neutralization was "in-fashion" back in the old days of Catherine Failor ...



So glad you mentioned this author! Her "Liquid Soaps" book completely turned me off to liquid soap-making. For one, I could not understand her obsession with having "clear" soap.  She never made it clear (pun intended, lol) whether the soap's clarity affected the quality, or was just her personal preference. After reading this forum (esp. IrishLass' great liquid soap tutorial thread), that confirmed my suspicion that clarity is an issue of personal taste... to a point. Obviously, if stuff is collecting at the bottom or the top of the soap, something is amiss.

In any event, I am feeling encouraged to give this a try sometime soon. After I try salt bars, CPOP, whipped soap, and whatever else is on that ever-growing "must try" list.


----------



## Susie (Dec 25, 2018)

AliOop said:


> So glad you mentioned this author! Her "Liquid Soaps" book completely turned me off to liquid soap-making. For one, I could not understand her obsession with having "clear" soap.  She never made it clear (pun intended, lol) whether the soap's clarity affected the quality, or was just her personal preference. After reading this forum (esp. IrishLass' great liquid soap tutorial thread), that confirmed my suspicion that clarity is an issue of personal taste... to a point. Obviously, if stuff is collecting at the bottom or the top of the soap, something is amiss.
> 
> In any event, I am feeling encouraged to give this a try sometime soon. After I try salt bars, CPOP, whipped soap, and whatever else is on that ever-growing "must try" list.



Nothing is amiss if stuff is at the bottom, it simply means you used an oil with unsaponifiables.  Just pour off the clear soap and toss that bottom layer.


----------

