# Fragrance oils



## jayo2009 (Jul 6, 2017)

I made a 2lb batch of soap yesterday and the fragrance seems to be more mild than what I want (sandalwood). I used 1 oz of oil. Should I increase it, or keep where its at and if so, by how much. I don't want to add too much and cause someone skin irritation problems


----------



## ibct1969 (Jul 6, 2017)

Depending on where you purchased it from, the usage rates should be available to you, and Soapcalc calculates the rate for you as well, based on your soap's weight.  Maybe Soapee does too?


----------



## jayo2009 (Jul 6, 2017)

ibct1969 said:


> Depending on where you purchased it from, the usage rates should be available to you, and Soapcalc calculates the rate for you as well, based on your soap's weight.  Maybe Soapee does too?



Well I use soapcalc and it uses .5 oz per pound so 2 lbs I used one oz but it still seems too mild to me but that's just my opinion. Where I purchased it was bulk apothecary. Unless you are saying BA might have a different suggested usage rate


----------



## ibct1969 (Jul 6, 2017)

I haven't purchased from them before so I can't answer that.  I personally like Sandalwood to be strong so I use 1 oz ppo (mine was from Brambleberry).


----------



## jayo2009 (Jul 6, 2017)

ibct1969 said:


> I haven't purchased from them before so I can't answer that.  I personally like Sandalwood to be strong so I use 1 oz ppo (mine was from Brambleberry).



OK, that helps a little more. I know each FO-EO is different but how do I know when one may be too much or not enough or is it going to be mainly trial and error


----------



## Soapmaker145 (Jul 6, 2017)

ibct1969 said:


> I haven't purchased from them before so I can't answer that.  I personally like Sandalwood to be strong so I use 1 oz ppo (mine was from Brambleberry).



Was it BB's Sensuous Sandalwood?


----------



## shunt2011 (Jul 7, 2017)

I check the usage rate on all my EO/FO's.  I don't generally purchase FO's that have a usage at under 6%.  I use 6% ppo in most my soaps.  The only exception is if they are really strong then I'll adjust accordingly.


----------



## ibct1969 (Jul 7, 2017)

Soapmaker145 said:


> Was it BB's Sensuous Sandalwood?



Yes, it was.  it's still sticking in the soap I made a year ago.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Jul 7, 2017)

jayo2009 said:


> Well I use soapcalc and it uses .5 oz per pound so 2 lbs I used one oz but it still seems too mild to me but that's just my opinion.


Well, your opinion is the only one that counts! How much fragrance you add is totally up to you. A rate of 0.5 oz. PPO (Per Pound Oils) is SoapCalc's default setting for making hard bars. You can change it to suit your preference. For most FOs, I find that 0.85 oz works best for me -- not too weak; not too strong. Some soapers use 1 oz. PPO but you decide what works for you and your nose. This is learned over time and making several batches.

Also keep in mind that scent strength changes over time, from when the batch is first poured, to when it's fully cured, to when it takes its place in the shower. Sometimes it has no scent at all, but once you lather up, it reappears.


----------



## dixiedragon (Jul 7, 2017)

Another issue is that some fragrances are better at a lower concentration. This seems to be especially true with those hard to find ones we often talk about here - including sandalwood. Use lightly, and you get a hint of scent that evokes sandalwood (or coconut, I've noticed). But use it more generously and the flaws in the scent become apparent. To my nose, many coconuts that are pleasant when used lightly have a harsh plastic note when used more heavily. And many sandalwoods have a powdery note in a higher concentration.


----------



## newbie (Jul 8, 2017)

I can't find any usage rates on BB's website, which I think should be corrected by them. However, according to their fragrance calculator, which may be tied to usage rate (I sure hope so), their rec for strong scent is 1.6 ounces of FO for 32 ounces of soap (oil weight or batter weight??? Come on, BB!!!).


----------



## penelopejane (Jul 8, 2017)

newbie said:


> I can't find any usage rates on BB's website, which I think should be corrected by them. However, according to their fragrance calculator, which made be tied to usage rate (I sure hope so), their rec for strong scent is 1.6 ounces of FO for 32 ounces of soap (oil weight or batter weight??? Come on, BB!!!).



Pretty sure it's oil weight.

https://brambleberry.zendesk.com/hc...d-Essential-Oil-Usage-Rates-?mobile_site=true


----------



## dibbles (Jul 8, 2017)

newbie said:


> I can't find any usage rates on BB's website, which I think should be corrected by them. However, according to their fragrance calculator, which made be tied to usage rate (I sure hope so), their rec for strong scent is 1.6 ounces of FO for 32 ounces of soap (oil weight or batter weight??? Come on, BB!!!).



Since the usage given is for XX ounces of SOAP, I've always taken that to mean batter weight. I agree it is unclear, and I think their FOs usage rate is to be found by using their FO calculator.


----------



## penelopejane (Jul 8, 2017)

dibbles said:


> Since the usage given is for XX ounces of SOAP, I've always taken that to mean batter weight. I agree it is unclear, and I think their FOs usage rate is to be found by using their FO calculator.



The link I posted above says CP soap 0.45oz per pound. 
That's pretty low ppo let alone per pound of batter don't you think? 

Ppo is pretty standard isn't it?


----------



## newbie (Jul 8, 2017)

PPO is standard but the question is if they are using that standard. Their calculator says XX oz of cp soap, which I take to mean batter but someone could easily take it to mean PPO. The obvious problem with using batter is your water amount may vary, but it's not at all clear to me that they are using oil weight. Their usage rates should be posted under the FO and not require you to use their calculator, in my opinion. 

0.45 ounces per pound of oils or batter is on the low end of what people generally use for FO's (not EOs), but that entirely depends on the IFRA, which we can't see.


----------



## dibbles (Jul 8, 2017)

.45 would be light for my taste for sure. But I tend to like strongly scented soaps.

I don't know what to think of the link posted by PJ. But I went to the Soap Queen website and chose a recipe at random. It called for 54 ounces of oils, and total batter weight was 78.3 ounces. She used 4 ounces of FO. Using the batter weight in the BB calculator (I believe they calculate by batter weight), I came up with a usage rate for the same FO of 3.5 ounces for 'medium' and 4.7 ounces for 'strong'. It seems that this recipe used about 5% of batter weight.

Using just the weight of the oils, the usage rate was 2.43 for medium and 3.24 for strong.

The FO was Cotton Candy in this recipe. And I totally agree - the IFRA rates should be listed under each FO/EO. They can leave the calculator as is for those that want the guidance in figuring out how much is suggested for the amount of scent.


----------



## gdawgs (Jul 8, 2017)

I sent BB an email(or maybe it was an IM) asking if the calculator was referring the weight of the oils, or the total batch weight.  They told me it was for the total batch weight.


----------



## Britannic (Jul 8, 2017)

ibct1969 said:


> Depending on where you purchased it from, the usage rates should be available to you, and Soapcalc calculates the rate for you as well, based on your soap's weight.  Maybe Soapee does too?



Soapee.com lets you set the percentage of EO/FO and calculates the weight for the recipe.


----------



## penelopejane (Jul 8, 2017)

gdawgs said:


> I sent BB an email(or maybe it was an IM) asking if the calculator was referring the weight of the oils, or the total batch weight.  They told me it was for the total batch weight.



Thank you for confirming that and to dibbles for all her work. 
How odd to use batch weight!  At least we know now.


----------



## bountifulsoaps (Aug 22, 2017)

Does that mean their fragrances are lighter scented than say MMS.  I generally used essential oils mainly because I do not understand fragrances.  I've used a few from MMS and they can be strong but the one I really like Bergamot is light too light even at 1 ounce per pound of oil.  I've found their sandalwood with vanilla too and I mean too sweet. I would like to find a good frankincense fragrance.  Anyone know of one and what usage?


----------



## DeeAnna (Aug 23, 2017)

Honestly, it's not odd to use batch weight to calculate the amount of scent. If you make any other B&B product -- lotions and such -- you'd use batch weight as the basis without a qualm. It's only soap that has a tradition of calculating additives and water based on the fat weight, not batch weight. 

I calculate my fragrance for soap based on 90% of the weight of fat + water + NaOH. The 90% factor allows for weight loss during cure.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Aug 23, 2017)

I found this interesting... I typically use *0.85 oz*. *PPO* fragrance on SoapCalc:






MMS fragrance calc,  based on *35 oz weight of oils* only, for Energy FO shows this:





BB fragrance calc,  based on *55 oz batch weight*, for Energy FO shows this:


This turns out to be a real head scratcher! LOL But it does suggest that BBs FOs are lighter than MMS. Yes?


----------



## Arimara (Aug 25, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I found this interesting... I typically use *0.85 oz*. *PPO* fragrance on SoapCalc:
> 
> View attachment 25702
> 
> ...



The two calculated batches are not the same weights, it would not show if one FO is stronger than the other. Here's what I plugged in using a 55oz CP bar for the same FO you chose.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Aug 25, 2017)

Arimara said:


> The two calculated batches are not the same weights, it would not show if one FO is stronger than the other. Here's what I plugged in using a 55oz CP bar for the same FO you chose.


Hi Arimara,
Actually, the two calculated batches are the same batch. The difference occurs between the two calculators. MMS is based on weight of oils only (35 oz); BB's is based on weight of the batch (55 oz). The reason I'm scratching my head is because all three fragrance recommendations are different -- and they should be the same, or close at least. What am I missing?


----------



## dibbles (Aug 26, 2017)

The Energy FO from BB and the Energy FO from MMS aren't the same. They are basing usage rates on their specific FO.


----------



## SunRiseArts (Aug 26, 2017)

I will add that one always have to check the max % of usage per the manufacture.  One time on MP I went 1 oz per pound, and it was really irritating on the eyes.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Aug 26, 2017)

dibbles said:


> The Energy FO from BB and the Energy FO from MMS aren't the same. They are basing usage rates on their specific FO.


Correct. But my point is, it seems to me that if you need more BB FO than MMS FO in the same size batch, MMS FO is the stronger of the two and a better overall value because you need to add less of it. Yes? Or is my head on askew again? LOL


----------



## cmzaha (Aug 26, 2017)

SunRiseArts said:


> I will add that one always have to check the max % of usage per the manufacture.  One time on MP I went 1 oz per pound, and it was really irritating on the eyes.


 Max usage is not always listed since IFRA testing is voluntary. I use 1-1.3% oz ppo depending on my fragrance oil. I just always used soapcalc and that is how they figure it. I do stay away from some of the FO's that state very low fragrance usage, they just do not stick well enough for my customers


----------



## dibbles (Aug 26, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Correct. But my point is, it seems to me that if you need more BB FO than MMS FO in the same size batch, MMS FO is the stronger of the two and a better overall value because you need to add less of it. Yes? Or is my head on askew again? LOL



Well, it depends. BB Energy FO is not the same fragrance as MMS FO. So if you are partial to one or the other, it would seem that would be the one you would use. Then test for yourself to see what usage rate you need for what you want. You are comparing apples to oranges. Disclaimer: I haven't used either of these, so they may be very close in scent. My point is, one company can have a fragrance oil they named 'enchanted evening'. Another company can also have a fragrance oil named 'enchanted evening', but the two are completely different.


----------

