# Natural Colorants vs Micas/Oxides



## gigisiguenza

In my browsing, both here and the web etc, I've seen a lot of people who swear by the natural colorants (herbs, spices, plant based etc) because they are "natural". And I've seen just as many who swear by the micas and oxides. Even though I plan on making predominantly naturally colored soaps because I really like the idea of it being as close to natural as I can get, I will still definitely be playing with the other colorant options too because they look like fun and I'd like to see what they can do.

What I'm currently curious about is why each of you, personally,  prefer one over the other. (besides the obvious expanded color choices in the m/o category) and what successful experiments you've tried with the naturals that has improved their end color saturation and/or color blending of the naturals, or even mixing the two/three types of colorants to create a new color, or the different types of colorants in the same soap.

Yeah I know that's a lot of curiosity. But you guys are such a wealth of experience and experimentation that it's hard to resist picking your brains to see what wonders you've all discovered. Not to mention that soaping, the designing of it, and you folks have really fired up my imagination more in the past few months than it has been in a while. 

Welcome to my ADD brain - where the wheels never stop turning and there are never enough answers for all the questions LOL.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'm not a big colourer of soaps, but as I understand it - 

If you think about it, a lot of oxides are naturally occurring, as are micas - the difference is that the products used for soaping are factory-made versions which are cleaner.  A naturally occurring version is likely to be tainted with some pretty nasty (but also totally natural) things such as heavy metals or harmful substances.  So a factory makes the oxide manually to make sure it is only the oxide, not mixed with the bits that we really don't want.

As for the "natural" colours, they can also have things that we don't want.  Not to mention that I am fairly certain that my paprika was processed in a factory, which then makes the difference between using paprika and a mica somewhat smaller.  Just because it is plant based, does not mean that it is not heavily processed to get it to where it is used in the soaps.


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## gigisiguenza

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm not a big colourer of soaps, but as I understand it -
> 
> If you think about it, a lot of oxides are naturally occurring, as are micas - the difference is that the products used for soaping are factory-made versions which are cleaner.  A naturally occurring version is likely to be tainted with some pretty nasty (but also totally natural) things such as heavy metals or harmful substances.  So a factory makes the oxide manually to make sure it is only the oxide, not mixed with the bits that we really don't want.



I hadn't considered that, to be honest. I assumed that the micas and oxides were a combination of natural and synthetic. Are you saying that they take the oxides and micas in their natural state and process them to strip out the harmful elements of them? Or are they completely man made. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, if I am sorry. You have my brain constructing another web search to learn how they're made LOL.



> As for the "natural" colours, they can also have things that we don't want.  Not to mention that I am fairly certain that my paprika was processed in a factory, which then makes the difference between using paprika and a mica somewhat smaller.  Just because it is plant based, does not mean that it is not heavily processed to get it to where it is used in the soaps.



That's true, they are factory processed. I suppose that in my head, and I'm sure many other people's as well, the fact that they originate as a plant or organic material makes them seem more "natural" because they are more closely tied to their original form. Not sure anyone would want to do the work it would take to produce their own paprika LOL. I'm sure someone out there has, but it isn't this woman for sure. Ya have me thinking about this too. Hmmm.


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## TeresaT

I think what TEG was saying with regard to the micas and oxides is there are two versions.  The "natural" versions that are mined or found in the earth and the "man-made" versions that are created in a laboratory under strictly controlled conditions.  Both are the same chemical compound; however, the one found in nature is mixed with other "stuff" that you don't want in your soap.  Things like heavy metals, mercury, lead, pesticides -- whatever.  It can't be helped.  The world is a dirty place full of combinations of junk.  So, in order to get the stuff out that you don't want in your soap and leave just the oxide or mica behind, it has to be processed.  Unfortunately, processing is not 100% guaranteed to get rid of the "extras" that Mother Nature put in there.  Natural products will never be as pure as their man-made equivalents.  The lab is a controlled environment and none of those impurities found in nature will ever be introduced to the lab (or at least they shouldn't be).

And then you have synthetic things, which are completely made in a lab with no natural counterpart.  You'd probably want to stay away from anything "synthetic" and just go with an "equivalent" or "man made" product.   So, just because something is "man made" does not mean it is synthetic.  Just because something is "natural" doesn't mean it is the best option available.  

When I decided to make soap, I was only going to use organic, high-quality food grade oils and essential oils.  Then I decided "natural" colorants would be ok (botanicals and spices).  After doing more research on oxides and micas and fragrance oils, I decided they aren't necessarily bad, and if I'm going to use them, I'm going to use the lab ones to get the highest quality/purity.  You just need to research for yourself and decide what is more important. I decided it was more important for me to have as pure a product as possible and that meant not going with a natural one.  Others may completely disagree with my assessment of the whole thing, and that's cool.  We can't all be vanilla.  Someone's gotta be rocky road.


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## TheDragonGirl

I too have decided I enjoy using nature-identical oxides, to be honest they're much safer, while still being a natural compound, but I also use alkanet, madder, turmeric, paprika, charcoal, and turkish ground coffee, I haven't experimented with any micas yet, an I've stayed away from the synths as a personal choice and nothing against synthetic colours, I just like the way the others look better, just like I'm finding I like the smell of EOs and EO blends more than I do most FOs, while I have nothing at all against FOs and do enjoy some of them a lot 

I actually premixed and infused the alkanet and madder, but so far have only used the rest as powders.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Bear in mind that not all micas are synthetic- only those which contain synthetic colours. Some are as natural as an oxide would be - but not all, so it's good to check with the supplier


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## gigisiguenza

TeresaT - Thank you for the explanation, and I'm finding myself going in a similar direction as you. I truly want to make soap that is as "natural" as possible, and in the beginning I thought that meant purely organic material. I'm learning, via research and you lovely folk, and am beginning to see that same thing you mentioned regarding safety and purity, vs natural. I've been reading on the web since TEGs post and I see both your points. Perhaps what I should be shooting for here isn't so much an "as natural as possible" soap as a "pure as possible soap".

I'm still gonna stick to my guns and see what kind of magic I can do with the organics because I love the way they look and their very comfy feel via using the organics  But.... where months ago if you, if you had asked me if I would ever use micas and oxides, I woulda stuck my nose in the air, copped my best hippie elitist pose, and said "hell to the no! none of that synthetic crap for me!" I'm now realizing how ridiculously impossible and unnecessary that is. 

I'm glad I asked this question/started this thread. I love learning about things and expanding my perceptions, and I'm happy to learn the difference between natural micas and oxides, vs man made. Especially if it means I can now play with all those lovely colors and still feel I am creating something very natural


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## gigisiguenza

Dragon Girl - I love the colors I get from the organics... they're so soft and pretty 

TEG - duly noted, I didn't think of that. Thank you


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## Obsidian

As much as I like the idea of using natural colorants, I end up not really liking most of the colors once the soap has cured. I'm not crazy about the bits of herbs that can get into the soap either, even little bits scratch my skin and feel awful. Activated charcoal is scratchy too me, not sure if thats normal or if I am overly sensitive. I want smooth soap unless I'm purposely in need of something scrubby.

I'm not a fan of clays as colorants, they are too muted in most cases and I really, really dislike how most clays dry my skin.

I started using oxides and some I still really like but some I'm not so crazy about. 
The green oxide I have is a terrible mossy green, not a pretty grass green like I want. The brown oxide gives a great color but even a tiny amount makes brown lather.
The blue and lavender ultramarines I have make great colors. You have to use quite a lot of the lavender to get a nice color but the blue, you only need a tiny bit unless you are going for a dark/bright blue.

I figure since I use FO's, I'm already adding chemicals to the soap so why would adding in un-natural colors hurt anything? I'm very fond of micas. Not only can you get a myriad of colors but they are super easy to work with, even added dry to the batter you don't get clumps.


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## gigisiguenza

Obsidian - I've been researching for methods to eliminate or at least reduce the exfoliation factor of some of the natural colorants, but otherwise I really like the softness and the speckled. I am interested in trying the oxides and micas to see if I like them


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## TeresaT

Gigi, when I started, I was a major snob.  I only used EVOO, organic CO and free-range lard and tallow from local sources.  Now, just four short months later, I'm using a 50# block of lard from Soapers Choice and OO from Costco.  Research (and the wonderful people on this forum) is a beautiful thing.  Dispelling (or verifying) preconceived notions through careful research is what makes this hobby/craft interesting and fun for me.  One thing I will not use is palm oil.  I know there is "sustainable" palm; however, MY research has not come up with a significant reason to believe that is true. (My issue is with deforestation as a whole, not just displacing orangutans.)  Maybe some day I'll change my mind about palm just as I have about colorants, FOs and non-organic ingredients.  But it comes down to the research we put into our raw materials and our personal beliefs about the impacts they make to the individual and to the environment.


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## gigisiguenza

TeresaT - I feel the same. I've changed so many of my preconceived notions since I began this research project six months ago, and even more of them since I joined this forum just one short month ago. I'm falling in love with this hobby like I haven't been in love with a hobby since I discovered art and quilting. There's so much science and technical skill involved in the making of good pure safe soap, and so much artistry in the designing of recipes, styles, and packaging, that it has grabbed me by my creative guts and sucked me in. 

I'm so glad I joined here. The knowledge and skills of the veteran soapers is a wealth of information; and the genuine encouragement, feedback, and support from people is amazing. How could anyone come here and not shed their naive snobbery in the face of that?

I first one am quite happy to have been enlightened and look forward to learning more.


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## tbeck3579

I like using things that grow on my farm and I just finished using some mulberries for colorant.  Mulberries look like black berries.  I kind of knew before I used it the color was not going to be what I expected.  It turned the soap a dark sienna.  Typically sienna comes from a clay with iron oxide.  The sienna will go nicely with my natural colors, and make a nice colored fall soap.  I don't know if any of you have seen the pick below but its pretty interesting.  The mulberries turned it a similar color to the blueberries in this pic.


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## gigisiguenza

I've seen that pic tbeck and I love those colors. I wonder how they get them so saturated. I just read a pdf from another soaper who puts her powders in her lye water and let's it sit a few days. She claims she gets much more saturated color from her natural colorants this way. I'm curious to see if it works, but don't know yet how I would store the lye water for days.


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## tbeck3579

gigisiguenza said:


> I've seen that pic tbeck and I love those colors. I wonder how they get them so saturated. I just read a pdf from another soaper who puts her powders in her lye water and let's it sit a few days. She claims she gets much more saturated color from her natural colorants this way. I'm curious to see if it works, but don't know yet how I would store the lye water for days.



That is a good question.  I wonder how long you can store lye water at room temp before it goes bad; loses the properties of lye?  If it is indefinite, doesn't lose the ability to make soap, I would put it in a mason jar.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

tbeck3579 said:


> That is a good question.  I wonder how long you can store lye water at room temp before it goes bad; loses the properties of lye?  If it is indefinite, doesn't lose the ability to make soap, I would put it in a mason jar.




We buy little bottles of 12% lye solution from the apothecary (for making Laugenbrot) and over time the glass is eaten away by the solution, even at so weak a solution. You end up with particles of glass like a cloud in the bottom of the bottle, which then makes it somewhat worthless for use on bread!

I would suggest never using anything glass for your lye solution, especially not long term storage.


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## tbeck3579

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> We buy little bottles of 12% lye solution from the apothecary (for making Laugenbrot) and over time the glass is eaten away by the solution, even at so weak a solution. You end up with particles of glass like a cloud in the bottom of the bottle, which then makes it somewhat worthless for use on bread!
> 
> I would suggest never using anything glass for your lye solution, especially not long term storage.



Maybe a plastic cottage cheese/butter/sour cream container?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

A lot of people use old laundry detergent bottles - I have a couple of them set aside for that purpose.

I have to say, remembering the way the 12% solution is ruined reminds me of the disappointment when you take it out of the larder to make some tasty Laugenbrot and realise that it is unusable


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## gigisiguenza

I didn't know that about the glass containers TEG. Old tide bottles hmmmm. Might work


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## IrishLass

I master-batch my lye solution for long-term storage (@ 50% concentration) in re-purposed laundry detergent bottles made from HDPE #2 (recycle code), and it works just fine. 

One needs to be careful what kind of plastic you choose as a storage bottle, though, because not all plastic is good for storing lye solution, such as PETE #1, for example. The first time I ever master-batched my lye solution, I used a re-purposed laundry softener container (Downey) made from PETE #1 plastic, and within 1 week my 50% solution had 'eaten' a hole through the bottom corner of the bottle and leaked onto the floor of my storage area (thankfully concrete). Also thankfully, I caught it in time before all the solution escaped to ruin the things stored next to it. That's the day that I learned that there are good plastics and bad plastics for lye solution.

From my notes:

Good plastics for storing lye solution: HDPE#2, Nalgene, PS#5, PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene)

Also, stainless steel is good.

Bad plastics for storing lye solution: PETE#1, PS#6, ABS, Polycarbonate, Nylon (polyamide), Acrylics (okay for very short term, but not for repeated use or long-term storage) 

For what it's worth, my master-batched 50% lye solution lasts a _very long time_ in HDPE without any diminished strength. By 'very long time', I'm talking _at least_ a year, according to my experiments. It more than likely would last even longer than that, but a year is as long as I went with the experiment. Others who make a 50% master-batch solution report the same long-lasting results.

I should mention that I don't add colorants to my master-batch....but I do add silk and it stores just fine with that.



			
				The Efficacious Gentleman said:
			
		

> We buy little bottles of 12% lye solution from the apothecary (for making Laugenbrot)


 
You should try making your own (or else transfer the one you buy to a safe plastic container). I make and keep an HDPE#2 bottle on hand of 4% lye solution for my Laugenbretzel, which come out fantastic, but now you've got me wondering how they would turn out with a 12% solution. Hmmm.... I feel an experiment coming on!


IrishLass


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## gigisiguenza

I know there are number codes on the bottom of the various plastic things I see, and I've been careful to only use #2 or #5, but how do you know what kind of plastic it is? I have no clue where to look to tell if something is hdpe or nalgene etc.


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## kchaystack

The number tells you what kind of plastic it is (the chart is near the bottom of the page):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_recycling


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## tbeck3579

IrishLass said:


> I master-batch my lye solution for long-term storage (@ 50% concentration) in re-purposed laundry detergent bottles made from HDPE #2 (recycle code), and it works just fine.
> 
> IrishLass



Why at a 50%?  I was thinking it would be easier/faster, but if I still need to mix the other half it doesn't seem like a big time saver.  I know I'm probably missing the obvious, but I would rather ask then remain ignorant :-?  The only thing that popped into my head was to save time on the cooling, but if you are mixing the other half???  
http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## kchaystack

tbeck3579 said:


> Why at a 50%?  I was thinking it would be easier/faster, but if I still need to mix the other half it doesn't seem like a big time saver.  I know I'm probably missing the obvious, but I would rather ask then remain ignorant :-?  The only thing that popped into my head was to save time on the cooling, but if you are mixing the other half???
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



A 50% solution is the strongest you can make. Any more lye and it will start coming out of solution.  

At 50% it is fairly simple (once you are used to it) to alter to the concentration you want.  You might want to soap a castile at 40% so it traces faster.  Or you might want to use a different liquid to make up the other part of the solution (aloe, coffee, beer, milk).  If you want to do a full water replacement you can concentrate your other liquid or use more powdered milks.  

all you can do if you mix up a 33% solution is add milk power....  So no adding beer or aloe because that will change the solution concentration.


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## tbeck3579

kchaystack said:


> A 50% solution is the strongest you can make. Any more lye and it will start coming out of solution.
> 
> At 50% it is fairly simple (once you are used to it) to alter to the concentration you want.  You might want to soap a castile at 40% so it traces faster.  Or you might want to use a different liquid to make up the other part of the solution (aloe, coffee, beer, milk).  If you want to do a full water replacement you can concentrate your other liquid or use more powdered milks.
> 
> all you can do if you mix up a 33% solution is add milk power....  So no adding beer or aloe because that will change the solution concentration.



Oh, I see -- my brain went to 1/2 the strength a recipe requires. I'm glad I asked and thanks so much for explaining it to me.  My brain doesn't quickly embrace "soap talk" yet.  I just got used to everyone talking about the percentage of oils   I'd rather look stupid for a moment by asking a stupid question then to spend the rest of my life not knowing.  Thanks for the help and the gentle nudge in the right direction without making me look silly (I tend to do that well without any help :?).  You are sharp as a tack!


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## IrishLass

tbeck3579 said:


> Why at a 50%? I was thinking it would be easier/faster, but if I still need to mix the other half it doesn't seem like a big time saver. I know I'm probably missing the obvious, but I would rather ask then remain ignorant :-? The only thing that popped into my head was to save time on the cooling, but if you are mixing the other half???


 
Ditto everything Kchaystack said.

To explain further, the reason why I (and many others) master-batch a 50% lye solution this way is because it really does simplify things. If it didn't, I definitely wouldn't do it, I can assure you (I'm always looking for an (upstanding) easy way out of things if possible, lol).

The main way in which it simplifies things for me is that it cuts out the 1 step that is the most annoying and that takes me the most time to do when making a batch of soap. When I mix my lye solution, I go the extra mile with safety precautions, not only in the protective gear I wear, but also in making sure my mixing area will be free and clear of other living beings for a certain amount of time. My hubby especially doesn't appreciate being anywhere near my mixing vicinity when I mix lye - even for hours afterwards (he hates the smell of it, and he has a nose like a bloodhound or a pregnant woman that can smell the lingering effects of it long after everyone else has ceased to detect it).

If I had to go through that kind of rigmarole _every time_ I felt the call of the stick-blender, it would drive me to frustration and I would cease to love making soap so much anymore. Mixing up one large master-batch at a time to last me through several batches of soap has been a life saver for me.

Why a 50% solution specifically, instead of a 33% or a 40%, for example? Because the math is easy (see- I'm looking for that easy way out again! lol) 

To explain, when I make soap, I don't always use the same lye concentration every time. Although I mostly like to use a 33% solution, sometimes I use higher concentration than that and sometimes I use lower depending on my formula and/or FO. If I were to make up a large 33% master-batch solution and then one day decide I wanted to make a soap with a 31.5% lye solution, I would drive myself insane trying to figure out how much of my master-batch solution to weigh out and how much extra water to add to it in order to convert it over to 31.5%. I'm just not that masochistic and self-loathing. lol

A 50% lye solution is made up of equal parts of lye and water by weight: 50% lye and 50% water, which makes the math of converting the master-batch solution to a different % solution childsplay. All that it takes to convert the 50% solution to whatever concentration I desire is to perform a simple 2-part math equation that any 1st-grader can do (or even kindergartener) and that works the same every time across the board no matter what different solution % I wish to convert to. It's my favorite kind of math equation, and it only takes a mere 5 seconds to do!.

So, whenever I feel the call of the stickblender, I take 5 seconds to do the math equation for my batch, take my jug of lye solution and weigh out the proper amount, and then I weigh out the proper amount of extra water, and proceed with soaping. I don't have to clear the house, I don't have to take extra precautions against the fumes (because there aren't any fumes), I don't have to wait for the solution to cool down, etc...). It's just a win/win method for me in every way.


HTH!
IrishLass


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## kchaystack

tbeck3579 said:


> Oh, I see -- my brain went to 1/2 the strength a recipe requires. I'm glad I asked and thanks so much for explaining it to me.  My brain doesn't quickly embrace "soap talk" yet.  I just got used to everyone talking about the percentage of oils   I'd rather look stupid for a moment by asking a stupid question then to spend the rest of my life not knowing.  Thanks for the help and the gentle nudge in the right direction without making me look silly (I tend to do that well without any help :?).  You are sharp as a tack!



You do not look stupid at all, and I am sorry if my post came across as inferring that.

I am not that sharp, I have just been reading the posts here longer than you and we have gone over this before.  My memory for important things is terrible.  But stuff about hobbies I enjoy or totally useless information about pop culture - well lets just say I am a dangerous opponent in Trivial Pursuit.


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## tbeck3579

IrishLass said:


> Ditto everything Kchaystack said.
> 
> To explain further, the reason why I (and many others) master-batch a 50% lye solution this way is because it really does simplify things. If it didn't, I definitely wouldn't do it, I can assure you (I'm always looking for an (upstanding) easy way out of things if possible, lol).
> 
> The main way in which it simplifies things for me is that it cuts out the 1 step that is the most annoying and that takes me the most time to do when making a batch of soap. When I mix my lye solution, I go the extra mile with safety precautions, not only in the protective gear I wear, but also in making sure my mixing area will be free and clear of other living beings for a certain amount of time. My hubby especially doesn't appreciate being anywhere near my mixing vicinity when I mix lye - even for hours afterwards (he hates the smell of it, and he has a nose like a bloodhound or a pregnant woman that can smell the lingering effects of it long after everyone else has ceased to detect it).
> 
> If I had to go through that kind of rigmarole _every time_ I felt the call of the stick-blender, it would drive me to frustration and I would cease to love making soap so much anymore. Mixing up one large master-batch at a time to last me through several batches of soap has been a life saver for me.
> 
> Why a 50% solution specifically, instead of a 33% or a 40%, for example? Because the math is easy (see- I'm looking for that easy way out again! lol)
> 
> To explain, when I make soap, I don't always use the same lye concentration every time. Although I mostly like to use a 33% solution, sometimes I use higher concentration than that and sometimes I use lower depending on my formula and/or FO. If I were to make up a large 33% master-batch solution and then one day decide I wanted to make a soap with a 31.5% lye solution, I would drive myself insane trying to figure out how much of my master-batch solution to weigh out and how much extra water to add to it in order to convert it over to 31.5%. I'm just not that masochistic and self-loathing. lol
> 
> A 50% lye solution is made up of equal parts of lye and water by weight: 50% lye and 50% water, which makes the math of converting the master-batch solution to a different % solution childsplay. All that it takes to convert the 50% solution to whatever concentration I desire is to perform a simple 2-part math equation that any 1st-grader can do (or even kindergartener) and that works the same every time across the board no matter what different solution % I wish to convert to. It's my favorite kind of math equation, and it only takes a mere 5 seconds to do!.
> 
> So, whenever I feel the call of the stickblender, I take 5 seconds to do the math equation for my batch, take my jug of lye solution and weigh out the proper amount, and then I weigh out the proper amount of extra water, and proceed with soaping. I don't have to clear the house, I don't have to take extra precautions against the fumes (because there aren't any fumes), I don't have to wait for the solution to cool down, etc...). It's just a win/win method for me in every way.
> 
> 
> HTH!
> IrishLass



Thank you so much!  It makes so much sense and does make life easier.  I know what you mean about clearing the area of living things.  I'll close the door to keep the dogs and DH out, but it never fails; if I'm in the kitchen he wants to know what's cookin'.  In come the dogs and the DH, and it ceases to be a relaxing fun thing because I'm so worried about someone getting hurt.  

Thanks so much for sharing that.  I hadn't thought about making the lye up until adding colorants and making ahead came up.  In fact, thanks everyone!  Much appreciated for information on lye, containers, and colorant.  
http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## gigisiguenza

> A 50% lye solution is made up of equal parts of lye and water by weight: 50% lye and 50% water, which makes the math of converting the master-batch solution to a different % solution childsplay. All that it takes to convert the 50% solution to whatever concentration I desire is to perform a simple 2-part math equation that any 1st-grader can do (or even kindergartener) and that works the same every time across the board no matter what different solution % I wish to convert to. It's my favorite kind of math equation, and it only takes a mere 5 seconds to do!.
> 
> So, whenever I feel the call of the stickblender, I take 5 seconds to do the math equation for my batch, take my jug of lye solution and weigh out the proper amount, and then I weigh out the proper amount of extra water, and proceed with soaping. I don't have to clear the house, I don't have to take extra precautions against the fumes (because there aren't any fumes), I don't have to wait for the solution to cool down, etc...). It's just a win/win method for me in every way.
> 
> 
> HTH!
> IrishLass



IL - I don't understand how this works. My soapcalc results will give me very specific amounts of water and lye to use based on my oils used. So I don't understand how this 50% solution works. I also don't understand how you take the 50% solution and make it a 26.953% solution. ( I used my last recipe as an example). 

I'm so sorry if I'm being dense, but I just don't understand anni really want to because I would love to do the hazmat safety routine just once for several batches (I'm like you in this aspect of the soaping game lol).

TIA for the help


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## tbeck3579

kchaystack said:


> You do not look stupid at all, and I am sorry if my post came across as inferring that.
> 
> I am not that sharp, I have just been reading the posts here longer than you and we have gone over this before.  My memory for important things is terrible.  But stuff about hobbies I enjoy or totally useless information about pop culture - well lets just say I am a dangerous opponent in Trivial Pursuit.



No it didn't at all!  I am sincere and grateful.  I have a very bad habit of saying it straight-up if I'm offended.  I don't often do the "sarcastic" without a very blunt explanation.  I am misinterpreted often so I try very hard never to make the back-handed remarks (unless you are family, then you know me, hehehe).


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## TeresaT

gigisiguenza said:


> IL - I don't understand how this works. My soapcalc results will give me very specific amounts of water and lye to use based on my oils used. So I don't understand how this 50% solution works. I also don't understand how you take the 50% solution and make it a 26.953% solution. ( I used my last recipe as an example).
> 
> I'm so sorry if I'm being dense, but I just don't understand anni really want to because I would love to do the hazmat safety routine just once for several batches (I'm like you in this aspect of the soaping game lol).
> 
> TIA for the help



For kicks and giggles, will you post a screen shot of your recipe that has a 26.953% solution?  You "should" be able to take 2(lye weight) of your 50% solution and add to (water weight - lye weight) to get your correct dilution.  at least that's my understanding of the way it works.  I can't imagine doing the dilution without the SoapCalc figures to tell me what to put in there.


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## DeeAnna

TeresaT -- If you use "water as % of oils" when creating soap recipes, you will get weird lye concentrations because the lye concentration varies with the saponification value. The sap value is used to do the translation from water as % of oils to solution concentration. It would be entirely reasonable to set up a "full water" recipe and end up with a 26.953% lye solution concentration. Gigi was probably looking at a recipe pretty high in liquid (oleic and linoleic) fats, would be my guess.

gigisiguenza -- if you want to use a master batch of lye, then you will have fewer problems with your math if you start using lye solution concentration, not water as % of oils.


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## IrishLass

gigisiguenza said:


> IL - I don't understand how this works. My soapcalc results will give me very specific amounts of water and lye to use based on my oils used. So I don't understand how this 50% solution works. I also don't understand how you take the 50% solution and make it a 26.953% solution. ( I used my last recipe as an example).
> 
> I'm so sorry if I'm being dense, but I just don't understand anni really want to because I would love to do the hazmat safety routine just once for several batches (I'm like you in this aspect of the soaping game lol).


 
Don't worry, Gigi. I know this all sound confusing right now, but you'll get it soon enough.  DeeAnna hit the nail right on the head. If you want to use a 50% master-batch of lye and have the math conversion work for you, don't use the 'Water as % of Oils' icon on SoapCalc. Instead, use the 'Lye Concentration' icon (located just below it) which calculates your water amount based on the lye amount (instead of the oil amount). I don't know why SoapCalc still has the 2 different ways of calculating water on their site when one of them is clearly superior to the other (at least in my reckoning anyway). Having both causes nothing but confusion.

It wasn't so long ago that I was just as confused about all of this as you, but I learned that calculating water based on the lye amount instead of the oils amount is actually the better, more sensible way to calculate one's water amount, since water's 'first and foremost' function in soapmaking is as a carrier for the lye (because it's the lye that determines how much water is needed). It's the only way I'll calculate my water amount. When one calculates the water as a % of the oils, things can get a little goofy. See page 3 of this PDF to see why/how they get goofy: http://rivercitysoaps.com/dwcp/dwcp.pdf

Anyway, if you want to work from a 50% lye solution master-batch, you'll have to get used to seeing water in terms of lye concentration instead of oil amount. Otherwise the math won't work (or maybe it will, but it will be much too hard for the likes of me to figure out, that's for sure! lol ).

One of the easiest ways to familiarize yourself with lye concentrations is to have a look at your SoapCalc print-out sheet. Even if you used the 'water as % of oils' icon, it will show you on the print-out page what the lye concentration is for your batch.

Let me know if this helps!


IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

And here's a related thread on SMF that discusses lye concentration vs. water as % of oils: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53642


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## tbeck3579

First, I want to thank everyone for taking the time to patiently teach me how to do this. Wonderful people!  When I forget there are still kind people in the world I need to come to SMF 

If you aren't too bored with this thread :yawn: (I know you folks do this all the time so I hate to keep asking) can I ask a few more questions? Soapcalc defaults to water as percent of oils: 38.  I really haven't had a problem with my soap recipes, even with all the teas, milks, additives at trace, etc, but I can see the many advantages of controlling the lye concentration (thank you for showing me!)  Everything from controlling the trace and cure to master batching is simplified.  I really want to learn how to do this correctly, but I don't want to waste ingredients by blindly messing with my recipes either.  

1.  Am I correct to say that most people typically use a 30% lye concentration for an "average" or "typical" soap recipe?  I understand it varies between soap makers and ingredients, but typically or safely a default of 30% works most of the time?  

2.  Is there a "cheat sheet" or something I can refer to that would give me a generalized, overall view of how much to change a particular recipe based on what I want; slowing trace, or the quantity of a particular oil, using milk to get from 50% to 30%, the fragrance, etc.  For example, if I'm having a senior moment (sigh, happens more often than I care to admit) and I forget if coconut oil or olive oil requires less lye, or which fragrance traces fast, my handy-dandy cheat-sheet can refresh my memory?

3.  If I'm unsure about a particular recipe what would typically be a "safe" percentage to use so I don't trace so fast my stick blender requires dynamite to remove from the bowl, hahaha.  I can always blend away for hours to reach trace, but if that soap sets, YIKES.


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## gigisiguenza

TeresaT said:


> For kicks and giggles, will you post a screen shot of your recipe that has a 26.953% solution?  You "should" be able to take 2(lye weight) of your 50% solution and add to (water weight - lye weight) to get your correct dilution.  at least that's my understanding of the way it works.  I can't imagine doing the dilution without the SoapCalc figures to tell me what to put in there.



Teresa sure I'll post it


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## tbeck3579

I found a cheat-sheet on this page:  http://www.japudo.com.br/en/2013/05/14/the-importance-of-lye-concentration/

This chart appears to be very helpful and just what I need.  Do you feel it is fairly accurate?


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## gigisiguenza

IrishLass - that pdf is a friggin godsend! I read it and a lightbulb went off as soon as I saw the formula and the example. I used my own recipe for my last batch as the numbers for the formula and hot diggity if it didn't make sense  

So, if I correctly understood this lye solution method, then these are the pertinent facts I need to know ... 

Fact 1 - the lye amount needed for the specific amount of combined oils used in specific recipe is static. It's based on the SAP values of the combined oils, therefore does not change, because it will always take the same amount of lye to saponify that specific amount of that combo of oils.

Fact 2 - Since the water's real purpose in the process is to act as a carrier for introducing the lye to the oils, the only truly necessary amount of water in a recipe is an amount equal to the amount of lye. Any water above that amount is used to slow down the speed at which the raw soap batter thickens. Reasons to slow down that speed include needing to accommodate the types of oils used and allow time to pour into molds (like lots of hard oils in a recipe) and other ingredients which may also accelerate trace, such as FOs EOs milks sugars etc. The more water used, the longer it takes to thicken up (useful for intricate pattern designs) and the longer it takes to evaporate (longer time to reach a hard bar state). 

Fact 3 - DWCP will speed the time it takes for a batch to reach hard bar stage, but does not guarantee it will quickly be able to pass zap testing, and it doesn't negate the time needed for the bars to reach maturity, ensuring they are mild and usable. No shortcuts, you still need to cure for 4-6 weeks, depending on the type of recipe.

Fact 4 - Even though water can actually take more than it's own volume in lye, a 1:1 ratio is the strongest solution you should ever use. 

Fact 5 - SMF rocks bada$$ socks cuz I never would have been able to figure this out with you guys 

So... master batching your lye solution is really just creating a specific concentration solution ( example 50 %) that is able to be added as is, or it can be diluted further with more water. 

The only question left still unanswered for me is - 
If I have 50% solution master batch, and I want to use a 33% solution for a specific recipe, how do I adjust it?

Example: my last recipe's lye/water amounts were determined by soapcalc, set at default settings, and they turned out to be
32 oz of oils needed
12.16 oz of water
4.49 oz of lye
Resulting in a 26.953% concentration lye solution

Now if I had a master batch of 50% concentration solution and I wanted to use the 27% solution recommended by soap calc, how do I adjust the water? 
Do I this?
12.16 - 4.49 = 7.67?

  12.16 (amt of water needed for creating a 27% solution)
 -  4.49 (1:1 lye solution amt) 
_______
 = 7.67 ( amt of additional water I need to add to my 50% master batch solution to make it a 27% solution.


If I got something wrong lemme know please 

ETA my head almost exploded figuring all that out LOL. I work from 330pm to 330am on Monday and Tuesday, and it usually takes me a couple of hours to wind down to go to sleep, so I check blogs and forums. But my poor brain is kinda fried by end of my day so it took some major brain squeezing to wrap my head around this LOL.


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## TheDragonGirl

The 33% is actually easy to do, others not so much

you take half the weight of total lye solution added, and add that much water, so that you have a one part lye to two parts water


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## gigisiguenza

Ok so I put my last recipe through soapcalc again, this time using the Lye Concentration option instead of the default option. 
I set the lye concentration at 50% and it told me I needed equal amounts of lye and water (obviously it said I need 4.49 oz lye and 4.49 oz of water)
So... if I were to use the 50% concentration solution, would I use 8.98 oz of the solution? 

And, assuming that 8.98 oz of the MB 50% concentration solution is correct, would I add an additional 4.49 oz of water to that 8.98 oz if I wanted to convert the solution to a 33%? Or add an additional 8.98 oz to convert the MB to a 25% ?


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## TheDragonGirl

yes thats right!


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## gigisiguenza

TheDragonGirl said:


> yes thats right!



Holy Hannah I think I got it! That was some serious figuring out LOL. But I got the concept I think


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## IrishLass

tbeck3579 said:


> 1. Am I correct to say that most people typically use a 30% lye concentration for an "average" or "typical" soap recipe? I understand it varies between soap makers and ingredients, but typically or safely a default of 30% works most of the time?


 
30% is a good 'safe' percent that I like to use when I'm not sure of how a FO will behave when I'm soaping it. For the majority of my batches, though, I actually like to use a 33% concentration. It's what I refer to as my 'Goldilocks' concentration- things don't move too fast or too slow for me when I'm using FOs that play nice enough for me. If I have a FO that I know is ornery and won't behave even at a 30% concentration, I will use a 28% solution. That's the most water I'll use in CP. If that doesn't 'tame' my ornery FO, I'll HP it. And then there are those times when I make a 100% OO Castile. Those take forever to trace, so I'll go to a 40% concentration on those (if the FO is a well-behaved one). 




tbeck3579 said:


> 2. Is there a "cheat sheet" or something I can refer to that would give me a generalized, overall view of how much to change a particular recipe based on what I want; slowing trace, or the quantity of a particular oil, using milk to get from 50% to 30%, the fragrance, etc. For example, if I'm having a senior moment (sigh, happens more often than I care to admit) and I forget if coconut oil or olive oil requires less lye, or which fragrance traces fast, my handy-dandy cheat-sheet can refresh my memory?


 
The best cheat-sheet to have is the one you make yourself from the notes you jot down after making each batch. I'd give you mine, but it's so individual, being based on my particular likes/dislikes, that I don't think it would do you much good. lol Every soaper should have a notebook (I have several now), and should get into the habit of writing everything down. I confess I'm pretty fastidious/meticulous when it comes to taking notes and have about 6 of them filled now- all hand-written. lol 



tbeck3579 said:


> 3. If I'm unsure about a particular recipe what would typically be a "safe" percentage to use so I don't trace so fast my stick blender requires dynamite to remove from the bowl, hahaha. I can always blend away for hours to reach trace, but if that soap sets, YIKES.


 
For me, a 30% concentration is my go-to 'I'm too unsure' concentration. lol


IrishLass


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## IrishLass

gigisiguenza said:


> The only question left still unanswered for me is -
> If I have 50% solution master batch, and I want to use a 33% solution for a specific recipe, how do I adjust it?
> 
> Example: my last recipe's lye/water amounts were determined by soapcalc, set at default settings, and they turned out to be
> 32 oz of oils needed
> 12.16 oz of water
> 4.49 oz of lye
> Resulting in a 26.953% concentration lye solution
> 
> Now if I had a master batch of 50% concentration solution and I wanted to use the 27% solution recommended by soap calc, how do I adjust the water?
> Do I this?
> 12.16 - 4.49 = 7.67?
> 
> 12.16 (amt of water needed for creating a 27% solution)
> - 4.49 (1:1 lye solution amt)
> _______
> = 7.67 ( amt of additional water I need to add to my 50% master batch solution to make it a 27% solution.
> 
> 
> If I got something wrong lemme know please
> 
> ETA my head almost exploded figuring all that out LOL. I work from 330pm to 330am on Monday and Tuesday, and it usually takes me a couple of hours to wind down to go to sleep, so I check blogs and forums. But my poor brain is kinda fried by end of my day so it took some major brain squeezing to wrap my head around this LOL.


 
This is what I do- I break it down to a formula. First I type my recipe into SoapCalc and also type in the desired lye concentration I would like to soap at. Then I press 'calculate' and 'view/print'

On the 'view/print page it gives me how much water and lye to use in my batch for whatever desired lye concentration I typed in. Now is when I apply my formula:

Step 1: Lye x 2= how much 50% solution to weigh out. I take the lye amount SoapCalc gave me and I multiply it by 2. The resulting sum is how much of my 50% solution to weigh out. 

Step 2: Water - lye = how much extra water to add. I take the water amount SoapCalc gave me and I subtract from it the lye amount that SoapCalc gave me. The resulting sum is how much extra water I need for the particular lye concentration I typed in on page 1 of SoapCalc.

The formula works the same way for any concentration you desire to use. Just type everything, including your desired lye concentration, into SoapCalc first. 


IrishLass


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## gigisiguenza

IrishLass said:


> This is what I do- I break it down to a formula. First I type my recipe into SoapCalc and also type in the desired lye concentration I would like to soap at. Then I press 'calculate' and 'view/print'
> 
> On the 'view/print page it gives me how much water and lye to use in my batch for whatever desired lye concentration I typed in. Now is when I apply my formula:
> 
> Step 1: Lye x 2= how much 50% solution to weigh out. I take the lye amount SoapCalc gave me and I multiply it by 2. The resulting sum is how much of my 50% solution to weigh out.
> 
> Step 2: Water - lye = how much extra water to add. I take the water amount SoapCalc gave me and I subtract from it the lye amount that SoapCalc gave me. The resulting sum is how much extra water I need for the particular lye concentration I typed in on page 1 of SoapCalc.
> 
> The formula works the same way for any concentration you desire to use. Just type everything, including your desired lye concentration, into SoapCalc first.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Eureka! I did indeed figure it out .... Ty so much for all the explanations


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## IrishLass

Yay! I 'm always so happy when it clicks for someone.  You're going to _love_ master-batching your lye and working based on lye concentrations.


IrishLass


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## zolveria

What is Natural.

Mica is found naturally around us.
Oxides are also found naturally around us and created in a Lab.
Botanicals are found in Nature also.


They key thing. NATURAL Botanical and or produce is only as pure as the Land that it sprung forth.

Mica can contain Lead.  which at time cause lipstick to not pass the lead test.

Because we live in such a color forward world. We are constantly looking for 
ways to color things.

People sometime do not understand all about the Pigment world and oxides etc which in turn can make a product unsalable.
for this reason.  I had to think of purity. and my soap business. and going white.


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## TeresaT

gigisiguenza said:


> Eureka! I did indeed figure it out .... Ty so much for all the explanations



YAY!!  It's really simple and a huge time saver.  (If you actually remember to double the weight of your recipe's lye amount when you actually pour your 50% solution.  Whatever you weigh out if that bottle, only half is actually lye. That is burned into my brain forever, now. )   With the recipe you posted, you would pour 8.98 oz solution and add 7.67 oz water.  You have a total of 16.65 oz lye & water combined.


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## tbeck3579

IrishLass said:


> 30% is a good 'safe' percent that I like to use when I'm not sure of how a FO will behave when I'm soaping it. For the majority of my batches, though, I actually like to use a 33% concentration. It's what I refer to as my 'Goldilocks' concentration- things don't move too fast or too slow for me when I'm using FOs that play nice enough for me. If I have a FO that I know is ornery and won't behave even at a 30% concentration, I will use a 28% solution. That's the most water I'll use in CP. If that doesn't 'tame' my ornery FO, I'll HP it. And then there are those times when I make a 100% OO Castile. Those take forever to trace, so I'll go to a 40% concentration on those (if the FO is a well-behaved one).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The best cheat-sheet to have is the one you make yourself from the notes you jot down after making each batch. I'd give you mine, but it's so individual, being based on my particular likes/dislikes, that I don't think it would do you much good. lol Every soaper should have a notebook (I have several now), and should get into the habit of writing everything down. I confess I'm pretty fastidious/meticulous when it comes to taking notes and have about 6 of them filled now- all hand-written. lol
> 
> 
> 
> For me, a 30% concentration is my go-to 'I'm too unsure' concentration. lol
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Thank you for taking the time to answer, and as always, great answers!  Your help is much appreciated.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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