# human bed sores vs guinea pig sores



## lenarenee (Aug 14, 2017)

I'm hoping for anyone with experience dealing with human bed/pressure sores tells me how to identify them, and how to deal with them.

Why?  Because for months we been dealing with red and sometimes swollen feet on our female guinea pig. Many vets and hundreds of dollars later she no better.  We were given 2 different diagnoses; one was bumblefoot infection - we treated that with antibiotics and other meds and saw no improvement.

One vet said they were pressure sores, to increase her activity, add more padding to her cage and expect a long recovery.

There's been recovery. Now we're being told that she just has to live with it and the pain + pain meds with long term affects that can cause kidney disease.

Really? That's the best they can do? Not one Dr. took the time to think this out and I' won't accept that. There must be some creative, even atypical treatment out there that can help Abigail. So I'm wondering how humans deal with them.....please tell me your experiences.


----------



## toxikon (Aug 14, 2017)

This might be an obvious one... but does she have a wire mesh wheel in her cage? I know those are a common cause of bumblefoot. I've had many pet rats, hamsters and degus and fortunately have never experienced it myself but I've heard about it. Poor little gal!


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 14, 2017)

She's never been kept on a wire floor, she has fleece bedding. And guinea pigs can't have exercise wheels.


----------



## toxikon (Aug 14, 2017)

Ah sorry, didn't know that. I've never had guinea pigs. This link seems to have some options you could try: http://www.guinealynx.info/pododermatitis.html

Good luck!


----------



## Kittish (Aug 14, 2017)

Fleece bedding... have you checked her feet with a magnifying glass to be sure there aren't any fibers wrapped around her feet?


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 14, 2017)

Thanks toxikon, yes I've been all over that site....it's a great one!  Tried almost everything there except corn pads and liquid band aids.

Kittish, no I haven't looked for threads. Fleece doesn't ravel like so many other fabrics. 
I would think that if it was a circulation problem the whole foot would be red, and it's not.


----------



## navigator9 (Aug 14, 2017)

I worked for many years on the spinal cord injury unit of a hospital. Most of our patients were paraplegics and quadriplegics. Because of their limited mobility, bed sores/pressure sores are a constant threat. Bed sores/pressure sores usually occur over the bony prominences, like hip bones, elbows, heels, coccyx, shoulders. They start off as a red area on the skin, and if not dealt with immediately, progress quickly to an open area, and can go down to the bone, become infected, cause systemic infections. They are much more serious than most people imagine, and for spinal cord injury patients who cannot feel the pressure, it's an even greater problem. The best way to deal with them is prevention, and the best way to prevent them is to avoid any constant pressure by moving. In bed, that means turning every two hours. If in a wheelchair, it means changing the angle of the seat to vary the pressure. 

So for a guinea pig, the only way I can imagine it would get pressure sores on its feet would be to stand constantly on a hard surface like a wire mesh floor, or other hard surface. I would think an animal would get uncomfortable and change its position, or move to a softer surface, so I'm finding it hard to imagine that your guinea pig has pressure sores. And the swollen feet would also lead me to think it's something else. If I were you, I think I might call around to all the vets in my area to see if there might be someone who specializes in dealing with them. Sometimes a vet who has small children who may have guinea pigs might take more time to diagnose them. My vet mentioned cats being the second class citizens of the veterinary world, so I can imagine how far down on the list guinea pigs must be. I hope you find a solution. We love our pets no matter what they may be.


----------



## earlene (Aug 14, 2017)

Bed sores (pressure ulcers) are caused by necrotic tissue that occurs when the person stays in the same position for extended periods of time.  Shearing and friction contribute to the development of pressure sores.  Certain conditions also contribute or exacerbate the development of pressure ulcers.  For example, diabetes, peripheral neuropathy, venous insufficiency, peripheral vascular disease, impaired sense of touch (not being able to feel the pressure or sore as it develops and therefore not taking preventive actions).

Is it possible there are shearing and/or friction actions going on at the same time your pet has pressure applied on his feet?  

Some pressure sores are deep and not at first visible on the surface; these are often called Deep Tissue Injuries, but has the same causal factors.

Google pressure sore stages and you can read a lot about them; how they develop (in humans); prevention and treatment; contributing factors.

But I am wondering if there is something else going on as well, like other medical conditions that would contribute.

I am a retired RN, and dealt with pressure ulcer treatment, but that was for bed-bound and wheel-chair bound clients; rarely ambulatory folk except in conjunction with the other contributing factors I mentioned in the first paragraph.


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 14, 2017)

Well you've given me something to think about.

Abigail is a shy pig and unless it's floor time, usually sits in one area except to wander out for hay or water. She always sits in the same position as opposed to out other pig, who sleeps on his side or other positions. (Don't worry, Abby can't have babies)

We've added layers of padding under the layers of fleece, reduced her weight, keep her cage as clean as possible, cover parts of the cage to give her more hiding areas to move to.

I just don't know what else to do, and the Dr.'s are done dealing with her. I'm just going to have to become a pain in their backside because I won't accept her living in chronic pain without someone trying a whole lot harder to figure this out.

I'll add a picture so you can see what it looks like.


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 14, 2017)

Here...this is the bottom 2/3 of her foot. The redness is always worse on her heel/corner of her foot.


----------



## Kittish (Aug 15, 2017)

Might be an allergic reaction to something? Do you machine wash her bedding ever? What cleaners do you use for the cage? Other potential allergens she might be being exposed to? I know allergy testing for dogs isn't too horribly complicated or expensive, is anything similar available for guineas?

One other thing that occurs as a possibility- is it self inflicted? Is she licking or biting at her feet enough to cause the irritation and swelling? We had a dog that would do that. Lick and lick and lick at one paw until it was bloody unless we stopped her.


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 15, 2017)

This affects both of her back feet, and to lick them she could only reach the tops.  

We changed the detergent we washed her fabric in to non allergen All about 6 weeks ago, double rinses. No change.


----------



## Relle (Aug 15, 2017)

We've had guineas on and off for years, none now. I do remember that sort of thing on some of them on the back foot. I think I got some cream from the vet at the time.
I've just had a look and read on the guinea pig forums and some have mentioned adding Vitamin C to the diet or giving them more foods in Vit C.

Also here is a link that might be of help.
https://www.theguineapigforum.co.uk/threads/sore-feet.18597/

Urine scald can be a problem if she is sitting in the one spot all the time, maybe you can put something where she is sitting a lot, so she can't go there and have to move around more. My other suggestion, if it might be urine scald (you might have to smell her feet) would be to put lanolin on her feet to protect them. Would she tolerate  the really bad foot being bandaged until it started to recover ?

Other than that here is an active Guinea pig facebook page (Australian) that you might be able to ask your questions on and get an effective answer. https://www.facebook.com/guineapigsaus/

Here's a forum with medical help - http://www.guinealynx.info/forums/
http://www.guinealynx.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72946&p=2238225&hilit=sore+feet#p2238225 - 5th post down, recommends calendula ointment or olive oil rubbed in. I've found calendula great for human skin recovery from sores.


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 15, 2017)

Thanks Relle! I'm leaving on a short trip so I'll look into that this weekend.


----------



## NsMar42111 (Aug 16, 2017)

Background: I used to raise show rabbits and guinea pigs  I've treated a boar with red feet similar to what I can tell from the picture, and multiple rabbits for feet issues.

I had to google the fleece bedding thing- I can't imagine working well in a guinea pigs' cage. If she hardly moves around because her feet hurt, the urine scald would be bad enough on regular bedding much less a piece of fabric. No matter how much you wash some of the urea will be there! Plus the whole chewing fabric thing...

If this was my sow, what I would do:

Get rid of the fleece bedding. Go get that fluffy paper bedding that comes in the weird colors (get the plain type). This stuff  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007R6G8JW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

It's really soft but should encourage her to shift her weight around because it's not flat. If you can't find that, see if you can find the really soft aspen curls (not chips). Either way put several inches (like 5 or 6) of it in the cage, nice and deep. You may have to put some sort of barrier on the sides of the cage to keep the bedding in. Remove the urine areas daily or even more often as you can so she's not in contact with them.


Now, go to the pharmacy and get three things: Corn pressure relief pads (band aid Brand corn cushions NOT the corn removers!), small amount of Epsom salts, and Preparation H (or the generic hemorrhoid ointment). I'd recommend the ointment type over the cream as it's a better moisture barrier. Bear with me here.... this may seem weird but it worked on my guy. 

Make up a tiny amount of epsom salt solution and get it on her foot...JUST her foot don't let her lick it. You could try wrapping a epsom salt soaked paper towel around her foot followed by a plastic bag (to keep you dry) and then just hold her in your lap for 15-20 minutes while it soaks. Or you could soak a towel in it and have her stand on it for 15-20 minutes but you'll have to watch her so she doesn't lick it. 

When done, rinse off the foot/feet/whatever is wet well. Pat (don't rub) the whole foot with a soft cloth until dry. Take the Preparation H and rub it on the foot-it won't take much. She'll probably squeal while you are rubbing it because the foot is tender, just keep apologizing but get a layer on it. You don't want so much there that the bedding sticks to it though. What I did is slather it on and keep holding him (on a towel) while I was watching TV and then I wiped the excess off before re caging him to make sure it soaked in. Break out the carrot and petting!

Do this for a week, twice a day if possible-at least get the Preparation H on twice a day. Then, as long as there are no open wounds, wash the foot well with soap and rinse. Apply a corn pressure relief pad to the entire bottom of the foot. You'll have to cut it to size. If she acts all weird and walks funny without putting that foot down (like a cat that stepped on a sticker), stick one on the other foot too so she's balanced. It will fall off on its own in a few days and by then the foot should be much better. 

The epsom salts relieves swelling and helps toughen the skin, the Preparation H also helps toughen the skin.  If you think there may be any kind of fungal infection (if her nails are yellow or crusty or theres any kind of weeping/hair loss around the toes), get some Tinactin ointment and do that before the preparation H. 

Look up "sore hocks" in rabbits and you'll see some other ideas too-its a similar idea. They used to make something called Pad Kote I had to use on my mini rex rabbits' feet but I haven't seen it around lately in the feed stores. It stains everything blue (including you) but it also toughens up the skin. I used to use it on me LOL. Never had to use it on the guinea pigs because the Preparation H trick worked. 

Imagine being  a shy 14 year old and buying Preparation H and Tinactin at the store... "I swear its for the animals!".

I hope you get her figured out soon. Her shyness and lack of movement may be because her foot hurts and she's not liking all the fuss over it. Oh, for her "floor" time you may want to make that "bed" time and cover a bed with something and let her run on it-bed is soft . I built a cardboard pen for mine when I'd let them on the bed so they wouldn't run off the sides LOL. :bunny:


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 21, 2017)

Oh I'm so sorry I just now saw this!!

And a big thank you....this is exactly the kind of experience and creative ideas I was hoping for.

I'm going to take her into a vet, again, to at least have a record of her condition before starting your ideas.

I don't think this is urine scald. 

We've tried the CareFresh and saw no difference in two weeks. Not only that, but CareFresh is HARD and ROUGH. I wouldn't even keep my hamster on it. It's also dusty for little guinea pig lungs. CareFresh is expensive.

So we tried Kaytee clean and cozy, 2 weeks, which is soft and comfortable, and Abby liked it. But it had to be changed out several times a day because it got wet. It's expensive - probably 150 dollars minimum per month. It's extremely messy to use permanently.

A note:  I am not the owner of these guinea pigs. I am however, in charge of their care since the owner doesn't care for them. I can't afford

A note about fleece. Fleece on top of an absorbent fabric like Zorb, wicks away the urine. It's not as efficient as a diaper, but works well if you pay attention.

Abby is not inactive due to her feet. She prefers to be hidden on as many sides as possible or buried in hay. She's been like that since the first day we had her.

When she's on the floor she loves to explore and is constantly busy wandering around. We leave lots of cardboard box tunnels on the floor for her to run to, collect her courage, and venture back out to explore. 

That being said - I wonder if I can make a box of Kaytee Clean and Cozy as a bed for her as part of the "therapy" - keep the mess and cost down. Easier to spot clean. 

Questions:

Where did you get the idea for Prep H and Epsom salts?  Vet approved?

What does the Epsom salt do?

They now many magnesium lotions  like: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N3U25K0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
  ..............would that be an alternative to soaking in Epsom salt?

I'm concerned about the impact of the adhesive from the corn (not remover...got that) affecting her feet.

The guinealynx website mentions someone using Silvedene cream on pig feet...ever hear of that?

Thanks,
Lenarenee

Just skimmed your post again:  Yes, we did the bed thing too for a while, but went back to the carpeted floor because there's just so much more interesting stuff for her to do. To keep her moving on the bed we have to sprinkle dried veggies around. The Vet wanted her to lose weight, which she has done.  Abby is "hippy", like a woman with a pear shaped figure - but she was like that even at 5 months.


----------



## Cindy2428 (Aug 21, 2017)

I've been reading this post with interest, but had little info to help with... Just some thoughts - First Silvedene cream is expensive and frequently used for burn patients. It is used on open wounds for healing, infection protection. A great med if your vet will approve it.

Have you ever heard of PIG absorbent mats? I found out about them at a nail polish/eye shadow formulating workshop. They are soft and easily wick liquids. I don't know what they are made of in case piggy gets hungry/bored. I lay these down when I'm working on my nails. 

Uh oh... may not work - I found them at ULine - they are made from Polypropylene


----------



## NsMar42111 (Aug 21, 2017)

If it's not urine scaled, it might just be sore feet then. Possibly due to her excessive weight (what does she actually weigh?), or it could be her genetics. When breeding animals sometimes something like tender feet gets overlooked in a line, or sometimes the breeder isn't really breeding to improve but just to breed. The Rex and Satin rabbits are notorious for it-I had several animals I had to take out of breeding rotation because the offspring had feet issues. The pear shaped body might be part of genetics too.

Okay, back to piggy-The box idea of the soft bedding just in the corner she usually sits sounds like a great one! Saves a ton of money. A drawer organizer might be the trick, shallow and plastic so easy to clean. 

My piggies were always chewers so there would be no way I could've used fleece LOL. If she's just got tender feet, sitting in one spot on any kind of flat surface won't help (like how your clothes stick to you when you sit too long). 

Is the hay the really soft stuff (alfalfa) or the straw stuff? The straw-y stuff is tough on piggy feet but wayyyyy cheaper than alfalfa LOL. 

Sounds like you just have a secluded critter then, some are hiders-glad to hear she's otherwise active, that means the feet aren't really bothering her.

The preparation H / epsom salts originally came from the breeder I got my show pigs from. She was one of the best breeders in my state and her animals were very healthy so she wasn't a fly by night backyard breeder. Back then, there weren't very many (none within a 2 hour drive of me) small animal vets so breeders shared info with each other. If you get a good vet now, they'll tell you how most of the prescriptions they give for animals are the human stuff in doses by weight LOL. Back to the topic, I then checked with the University of Florida's vet department and they said both were fine to use topically (on the skin), just don't let them eat it. Epsom salts would have a laxative effect, as would the carrier oil in preparation H.  

Epsom salts are used on humans and animals of all types to relieve swelling and soreness-racehorses get wraps after workouts. Oh, I just thought of something-I've had chickens/turkeys get bumblefoot (which looks different than what I see in the pic you posted). A week long course of antibiotics and we had them stand in a pan of epsom salts and water (made according to package directions) once or twice a day-it took a while to resolve, 3 weeks if I remember right. 

I've never dealt with the magnesium lotions -they are a different thing from epsom salts though. 

The silvedene cream is an antibiotic from what I see. Wouldn't hurt to try it , but you said you already tried antibiotics?

 The adhesive is made to fall off in a couple of days and is skin safe. There's always a chance of an allergy but that's in anyone.



Ok, out of curiousity, what does she do if you touch her feet? Is it a pain squeal or is it a "i'm ticklish" squeal or does she do nothing?


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 21, 2017)

Just skimmed your last post; will read again later. And another thousand thank you's!!

I have avoided touching her feet, even when picking her up I cup her rear with my hand to support, instead of cupping under her back feet.

I can try it - but I'm not sure if I'd know how to interpret her pain reaction. Certainly when we clip a nail too short she squeaks and pulls back, but would she do that with her feet?

I also know that when we approach the cage with veggies or fresh hay, she comes right out of hiding...and does a little excited dancing.  Never as much as Bellpepper does - but he is one of the more confident piggies the rescue has ever seen - he's like a little dog.

But, in the beginning when she was on antibiotics and pain med, she took the antibiotics well, and resisted the pain med.

The vet said to continue the pain med indefinitely. Because it can damage kidneys, I only give it once in a 24 to 48+ hours period.  It depends on how bright the pink/redness of her feet are. I assume that the more raw looking they are, the more sore they are.

The color does fluctuate in intensity - sometimes in as short a period as 12 hours, but usually it's a day or two. 

I think the medicine has an anti inflammatory effect too. I was away for 5 days, and since I'm the major caretaker, I came back and found her feet looking as bad as ever. Dosed the pain med 1x 24 hrs, and in 2 days was looking much better.

She has started losing hair on her feet AGAIN. that happened several weeks ago, plus her eyelid fur and she was given mite med.  I was never completely certain the mite med worked completely. It was dog med, not ivermectin. 

Over all, Abby's happiness comfort I think is pretty good. I judge by her willingness to exert her personality: wheeking for food, stealing food from BellPepper, stealing food back again...!


----------



## NsMar42111 (Aug 21, 2017)

Okay, if she's losing fur on her feet, try the Tinactin routine. A fungal infection can cause the fur to fall out and can be reallllllllly persistant. Since they use their feet to scratch their eyes, it would make sense that fur would go too...sometimes the only symptom is hair loss.

 I swear every vet goes for the mite angle as soon as hair falls out! My dog that I recently lost battled hair loss for several years. Vet after vet would scrape her poor paws determined to find mites. Finally, a vet I took her to after a poisoning (do NOT use Sergeant brand flea stuff) proposed that she had a combo bacterial/fungal infection and said try treating for that. Six weeks of antibiotics, weekly baths in antifungal meds, and daily dousings of diluted listerine and she had hair again! After that, any time the hair got thin, I did the listerine trick and no problems. It was never mites!Grrr... but it just shows sometimes they get one idea in their heads and don't consider other possibilities.

For the pain noise part, you can't miss it-it's a much higher pitch neek noise. The ticklish noise is lower pitched and usually they start chattering afterwards LOL. 

Can you get better pictures of her feet? Maybe from further away so it's more in focus? Mine always had pink feet even with no issues so I'm curious what hers look like...


----------



## lenarenee (Aug 21, 2017)

Tinactine = tolnaftate?  Not clotrimitazole (Lotrimin)?

I assume cream is better than spray?

Apply it where? Bottoms of feet only?  

Apply how often?

I'll work on getting pictures.


----------



## NsMar42111 (Aug 21, 2017)

It's in the foot care section usually.... this stuff http://www.tinactin.com/
tolnaftate version yes... you can use the generic versions but make sure it's the same ingredient. It's the antifungal you want. 

Cream, the spray would get everywhere and is powdery not to mention the hissing would probably scare the scrap out of her LOL. Put it on twice a day if possible, once if that's all you can do. To apply, just put a little on  your finger and wipe the affected areas of the feet (don't need to slather it on). Obviously if her feet are dirty clean em first. Rub it in if she lets you . 

Fungal infections can be tough, so I'd give it two weeks. At least the tinactin is cheap!

Out of curiosity, what pain med did they give?


----------



## Susie (Aug 22, 2017)

NsMar42111 said:


> It's in the foot care section usually.... this stuff http://www.tinactin.com/
> tolnaftate version yes... you can use the generic versions but make sure it's the same ingredient. It's the antifungal you want.
> 
> Cream, the spray would get everywhere and is powdery not to mention the hissing would probably scare the scrap out of her LOL. Put it on twice a day if possible, once if that's all you can do. To apply, just put a little on  your finger and wipe the affected areas of the feet (don't need to slather it on). Obviously if her feet are dirty clean em first. Rub it in if she lets you .
> ...



Tolfanate is available in a liquid spray as well as the powder spray, and Walmart has a Great Value version of the spray liquid that is really, really cheap.  

Just a question, since I don't have guinea pigs.  Would some sort of diaper rash cream be better as an occlusive against urine scalding on the feet?


----------



## lenarenee (Oct 24, 2017)

NsMar42111 said:


> It's in the foot care section usually.... this stuff http://www.tinactin.com/
> tolnaftate version yes... you can use the generic versions but make sure it's the same ingredient. It's the antifungal you want.
> 
> Cream, the spray would get everywhere and is powdery not to mention the hissing would probably scare the scrap out of her LOL. Put it on twice a day if possible, once if that's all you can do. To apply, just put a little on  your finger and wipe the affected areas of the feet (don't need to slather it on). Obviously if her feet are dirty clean em first. Rub it in if she lets you .
> ...



UPDATE: Treated her feet for with Tinactin for 3 weeks. No change.  Found another exotic vet so brought Abby in to see him. Good news is her feet are actually fine; for unknown reasons many guinea pigs and rabbits have these red feet their whole lives. She's not in pain. 

However, he found something in her abdomen and did an ultrasound. He's on the fence about doing exploratory surgery because it's so risky for pigs. She has no signs of ill health - everything else is it great shape. She was spade as a youngster so it can't be ovarian cysts.  Not sure what to do next.


----------



## Relle (Oct 25, 2017)

How old is piggy ? I think that would determine what you do next. Sometimes it's not the surgery that's a problem, it's the anaesthetic they don't get through.


----------



## lenarenee (Oct 25, 2017)

She's 3 years old.


----------



## Relle (Oct 25, 2017)

That means she's just past middle age. I'd just keep an eye on her, if she's happy, healthy and eating that's all you can expect. If the vet thinks exploratory surgery is not such a good idea, then let it go.


----------



## lenarenee (Oct 28, 2017)

He actually would like to do it. She's very healthy otherwise. For now I guess I'll monitor weight, and see if there's any loss.


----------

