# Castor oil in shaving soap



## mistral (May 23, 2017)

Wondering if anyone have an answer to this question. I didn't want to ask this question on wetshaving forums because most of the people there don't make soap but seem to have a strong opinion on this issue!

Why do so many wet-shavers eschew soaps that are made with Castor oil in high quantities? Some of the most popular wetshaving soaps right now don't even contain coconut oil or palm or palm kernel oil. Castor oils seems to create very creamy lather and it nicely suspends high levels of stearic acid!


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## IrishLass (May 23, 2017)

I don't have an answer for that other than perhaps personal preference, but for what it's worth I use 20% castor in my shave soap/croap, as well as a 10% combo of coconut oil and PKO, and it is well-loved by both my hubby and son for whom I uniquely tailored it according to their feedback. I don't sell, btw. I just make it for exclusively for them. 


IrishLass


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 23, 2017)

Aye, selling is something else.  But wet shavers tend to be picky and particular.  I won't use a soap with clay, as an example - it might not damage my older razors, but it might, and I don't "need" clay in soaps as my soaps are great with glycerin instead of clay.  If the people you are making soap for don't "need" a high castor soap, why would they use it?  They might try it out, but don't forget that a bad shave can be very painful, so if they have heard bad things about a soap with castor and they know that the soaps which work for them don't have high castor (or any castor) then it could be hard to convince someone to try it out.


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## psfred (May 24, 2017)

I believe a lot of wet shavers have had bad experiences with bath soap sold as shaving soap, and while castor oil is nice in bath soap, it's not a good addition to shaving soap.

As has been detailed in many other places here in the forum, shaving soap needs a very high stearic and/or palmitic acid content, with enough oleic acid (around 15% or so) to encourage quick lather.  The stearic acid produces the desired qualities of the shaving soap -- dense, very fine, persistent lather that will last at least 15 min.  It takes a while to do a three pass face shave.

While castor oil is reputed to stabilize lather, good shaving soap has stable lather from the stearic and palmitic acids, and more than a few percent of castor oil will interfere with the stearic acid lather, most likely by making the bubbles larger.  Larger bubbles are NOT wanted wet shaving lather, they burst on the face causing the lather to dissipate during the shave.  Stearic acid lather can also hold a very large amount of water while remaining very slick, and slickness is what makes shaving soap shaving soap, so to speak.  If it doesn't make it hard to hold onto the razor, it's not going to do it's job of allowing the edge to slide over the skin without abrading skin cells while also cutting off hair.

A couple bad experiences with "bath soap" shaving soaps (usually with clay added, another thing most wet shavers don't like) and castor oil becomes a flag for soaps to avoid.

Easy enough to test, just make a tiny batch (100 gr or so) of each recipe and see which one makes the best shaving lather.  I suspect anything over 5% castor oil would make for poor lather.

Some large proportion of potassium hydroxide in the lye is also needed -- I think at least 60/40, and some people want 70/30.  This makes the soap much easier to lather up.  Sodium stearate/sodium tallowate soaps are slick enough, but very annoying to get lather with, and since they don't lather well, tend to dry out before one gets a complete pass done.  Williams Mug Shaving Soap is a perfect example.

Hope that answers your question, if in a rather round-a-bout way.  From my personal experience with a few batches of soap and what I've gleaned from several other sources, both here and elsewhere, shaving soap needs to have a fatty acid profile of around 60 to 70% stearic and palmitic acids, 15-20% oleic acid, and 60/40 KOH/NaOH lye, superfat no more than 5% (and I'm reducing in next batch, mine are a bit soft and greasy at 5%), and something like cocoa or shea butter at 5-10% to prevent skin drying.  Deviations from that formula may not be very nice to shave with.

All this is assuming face shaving -- "other" shaving is probably less exacting, both because the hair is typically much less dense and I suspect somewhat less coarse.  Beard hair is pretty thick in comparison to most head or body hair.

Peter


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## IrishLass (May 25, 2017)

psfred said:


> I believe a lot of wet shavers have had bad experiences with bath soap sold as shaving soap, and while castor oil is nice in bath soap, it's not a good addition to shaving soap.


 
That's a pretty sweeping statement that I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on, based on my own shave formula with 20% castor and how well-received it is (not only by my wet-shaving hubby & son, but also by three experienced wet-shavers who agreed to test my shave soap and give me honest feedback- 2 from Badger & Blade and one from here at SMF). Just so we're clear, my shave soap/croap is definitely _not_ a bath soap- (it would really, really suck as a bath soap, trust me, lol ).

One good thing to keep in mind when it comes to soap-making is that a large % of a certain oil that might really suck in one shaving formula can be quite wonderful in a different shaving formula, depending on the other ingredients. You've probably heard the phrase "location, location, location" that real estate agents are fond of using. Well, as a soap-maker, I'm fond of the phrase "formula, formula, formula"! 



psfred said:


> with enough oleic acid (around 15% or so) to encourage quick lather.


 
I know of several wet-shavers that would disagree with that statement (they detest oleic in their shave soap). For what it's worth, though, mine contains 19% oleic, so I would respectfully have to disagree with _them_! :mrgreen:



psfred said:


> While castor oil is reputed to stabilize lather, good shaving soap has stable lather from the stearic and palmitic acids, and more than a few percent of castor oil will interfere with the stearic acid lather, most likely by making the bubbles larger.


 
Again- I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that based on my own formula with 20% castor (and a 50% stearic/palmitic content). It does not produce large bubbles at all in my particular formula, not even with the 10% combo of coconut and PKO in it, which is only there to help jumpstart the lather so that one is not swishing the brush around forever and a day to work up the lather. 

Speaking of lather, I _do_ agree with you that larger bubbles are NOT wanted in shave soap (whew- I was hoping to not come off as a completely disagreeable negative nelly, lol). For what it's worth, my shave croap's lather is quite foamy and dense, like the shaving cream that squirts out of a can- not at all bubbly or quick-dissipating (my foam lasts for over 20 to 30 minutes without deflating).




psfred said:


> Easy enough to test, just make a tiny batch (100 gr or so) of each recipe and see which one makes the best shaving lather. I suspect anything over 5% castor oil would make for poor lather.


 
Maybe so, and maybe not. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it all depends on the rest of the formula, formula, formula.  

Also, something that I learned from my hubby and other wet-shavers is that much depends on one's lathering technique as well. The difference between achieving awesome lather or poor lather from one shave formula to the next (or a good shave from a bad shave) can depend on as little as adding a few more drops of water to the soap/croap when lathering. For example, a few years ago we received a couple of different shave soaps from a fellow soaper for hubby to test out and give feedback. On the first shave with one of them, he absolutely hated it (terrible shaving experience), but not one to give up, he tried it again the next day using a different water amount/lathering technique and it was the like the difference between night and day (i.e., he got an excellent shave with it). He continued using the tweaked technique with it from there on out and got a great, consistent shave with it each time. 


IrishLass


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## psfred (May 25, 2017)

Sounds like a project for Memorial Day!

I'll make a shaving soap with and without castor oil and see how they do -- 10 gr each, won't take long to hot process them.

Tallow in the one without castor oil.

Thanks for the input IrishLass.

Peter


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## psfred (May 28, 2017)

Made soap today once the family cleared out (visits from my sister are always, shall we say, testy).  Had to make the castor oil recipe twice since I left out the coconut oil the first time, and by some miracle it's not lye heavy.  

Recipes were:

50% stearic acid
20% castor oil
10% tallow
10% coconut oil
5% Shea butter
5% cocoa butter
10 gr glycerine

60/40 KOH/NaOH, half the butters added after cook for superfat.

Second recipe replaced the castor with tallow for a total of 30% tallow.

I lathered up the residue on my spatula after mashing the hot soap into molds, and my preliminary observation is that castor oil soap makes larger bubbles as water is added, and the lather is not as stable, it was vanishing as I carried the spatula back to the kitchen to clean up -- my shaving stuff is in the bathroom.

Also made a shaving soap with 50% soy wax, 30% tallow, 10% CO, and the two butters.  Took a very long time in comparison, but if anything it lathers better.

All three were quite slick, the mistake batch was less slick.  Will see what happens in a week or so, I'll test them all with actual shaves using the same razor and blade after they have a bit of time to cure.

The soy wax soap is tan (I think the cocoa butter darkened during the cook) and is quite firm, almost too hard to cut.  The tallow soap is also firm, but softer, and the mistake castor oil soap is quite sticky.  Haven't unmolded the good castor oil soap yet.

I would be happy to share samples, I don't need any more shaving soap for a while (as in a decade or two).  Castor and soy wax soaps are very lightly scented with sandalwood so I can tell them apart from the tallow soap.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 29, 2017)

A busy day then!

Was that castor oil recipe the same as Irish Lass uses? I think that shaving soap in particular (but all soap in general) makes it near impossible to say "this ingredient worlds or doesn't work" because it might work or not work in a particular combination with other ingredients


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## psfred (May 29, 2017)

Probably similar, but mine.  A simple substitution of castor oil for tallow or lard.  Might someday swap the coconut oil for the castor just for fun.

The objective was to substitute ricinoleic FA for oleic as much as possible while leaving the stearate as similar as possible to see what it does.

I think I figured out what I did with the first one -- all tallow, no CO, so I've more or less done that experiment too.

Commercial soaps tend to have pretty simple recipes -- Haslinger is stearic acid, tallow, peanut oil, and 
"cocoate"  -- don't know if that's cocoa butter or coconut oil, with the last two in pretty small amounts (less than total scent).  I believe the superfat is peanut oil.

I will see how they shave in a few days.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 29, 2017)

As I said, I'm not sure that it is a fair test to just swap out x for y when the recipe which works with y might be different and those differences, however small, make a big impact. 

Xxxx cocoate is saponified coconut oil


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## psfred (May 29, 2017)

My intent was to see what a large amount of castor oil does in my shaving soap (which I really like).  Won't be able to tell until I actually shave with it, as all that really counts in shaving soap is how slick it is and how well it lubricates the blade edge.  Dense lather is optional -- I shave with Williams regularly, and almost never have thick, stable foam.  Great shaves though.

All for fun and personal edification, I'm not really interested in spending a huge amount of time (or soap) on finding out exactly how to make castor oil work in shaving soap.  I'm fairly certain so long as you don't have lather killers in your soap, any shaving soap with more than 50% stearic acid and less than 20% oleic/linoleic acid will work just fine.  There is no need to "stabilize" high stearate lather, it's about the most stable lather in the first place.   Also no need to re-invent the wheel -- shaving soap isn't a new thing, after all.

Superfat amounts and quality is probably a more fruitful area for "improving" shaving soap.


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## psfred (Jun 2, 2017)

First shave report:   This morning I shaved with my trusty Wilkinson Sword blade in a 1947 Gillette Superspeed (shave #37 on this edge).  I used my "mistake" shave soap with 20% castor oil, 50% SA, 20% tallow, 5% Shea butter and 5% cocoa butter with half the butters added as superfat after the cook.  This particular soap MAY in fact be short of oils with a very low superfat.  No zap, so it's OK, but may be drying.

Lathered up pretty well, although it took longer and made fluffier lather initially than Haslingers soaps do. Had to stop adding water earlier than normal because the lather was getting thin.

Adequate slickness, got a good shave even with a well used blade, but by the end of the second pass the lather was starting to fade and get thin on my face.  

There was enough slickness to do quick touchups without fresh lather, but nothing like Williams.  My face quickly got "sticky" after I shaved, much like Col. Conk (melt and pour) soaps without enough water.

A bit more irritation than usual, but that may be due to low superfat in the soap, I don't have a good way to tell.

Shave was comfortable and very close, no nicks or weepers (which is typical of a blade with plenty of shaves on it).  

Conclusion:  Good shave soap, but not excellent.  Needs more water in the lather to prevent "sticky" skin after shaving, but the lather won't hold any more without coming apart.  Probably better with 5% superfat as intended.  

I would shave with this every day, but Arko and Haslinger are a little better (to say nothing of my usual recipe).

I'll use the known composition one with 10% coconut oil tomorrow, should be better.

Peter


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## psfred (Jun 3, 2017)

Shave report #2:

Used the Stearic acid/tallow/castor/coconut soap this morning.  Lathers a bit easier, shaves a little better, and is less sticky after the shave, I would say mostly because it's formulated properly.  Nice conditioning from the shea and cocoa butter superfat.  

Makes a decent initial lather, but still doesn't hold as much water as I would like.  Still slippery for a while after shaving, but not like my non-castor soaps.  Shave felt fine, nice slip and comfort.  One weeper on my chin in the usual spot, but that's operator error, not the soap,

Unfortunately, I had to re-load for the second pass -- plenty of lather in the brush, but it seemed to thin out while I was shaving, and I only got a thin, bubbly coating on my face.  Similar to Williams, which is a pain to keep as well.  Left over lather was dense and creamy, so it could be that I just didn't load up enough to start with although it felt right. 

Nice after shave feel once my face is dry, typical of my other soaps with the two butters as superfat.   

Not a bad shaving soap at all, but still nothing spectacular.  I will use it some more in the future to see if the unstable lather is a characteristic or operator error.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 3, 2017)

Good feedback- but what is your process? I bowl lather, for example, so it's different from the same soap which is face lathered


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## psfred (Jun 3, 2017)

Face lather.  Tend to use pretty minimal soap and as much water as the soap will hold.

I use a badger brush, just soak it for a few seconds and shake fairly dry, load soap until there is a "usual" amount (not scientific, alas) and then face lather.  Add water by dipping the tips of the bristles into the water in the sink.

Usually two full passes these days, with a fresh razor may do just one and some quick touchups if the first one gives me a clean shave.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 3, 2017)

Would be interesting to compare to those who like castor soaps. I usually bowl lather with a synthetic brush, unless I have a lot of growth in which case it's a boar. The synthetic holds so much water compared to badger or boar and that can impact, I think


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## wetshavingproducts (Jun 3, 2017)

mistral said:


> Why do so many wet-shavers eschew soaps that are made with Castor oil in high quantities? Some of the most popular wetshaving soaps right now don't even contain coconut oil or palm or palm kernel oil. Castor oils seems to create very creamy lather and it nicely suspends high levels of stearic acid!



Wet shavers on forums are an adventurous lot and are always looking for the latest & greatest, so if they don't like a formula, it's not because it has castor oil, it's because they don't like it.

And I can assure you that the second statement is not true. Those are just the flavors of the month. The old stalwarts continue to outsell artisans like the ants we are.


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## psfred (Jun 4, 2017)

Shave report #3:

Stearic acid/tallow/CO soap today, and what a difference!  Lathers up just as fast, but with a damp brush the lather is much denser -- pulled quite a few more hairs out of my favorite but pretty sheddy badger, more than the other soaps.  Added a bit of water by dipping the tips of the brush in the sink so I wouldn't run out of lather today.

Added almost twice as much water as I could with the castor oil soaps, no signs of lather breakdown.  Very slick, much easier to feel the razor working (remember, I'm using a well worn blade, they show differences in shaving much more than new ones).  Stays slick after the pass, in fact I just dipped my fingertips in water and  rubbed them on my face for the touch-up strokes, I didn't need to add any more lather.  Much less feeling of blade friction, too.

After shave feel is great -- very little sticky sensation from this soap, and less irritation.  Still verging on greasy, may reduce the super fat next time I make shaving soap (in 2027 or so....).

This is all my opinion, of course, and I knew which soap I was using every day, but I really do think that castor oil doesn't add anything to shaving soap.  Even at 20% it won't make the soap a bad soap to shave with, but stearic acid/tallow/CO is better -- much better.  

Tomorrow I'll shave again with my high stearate soap (70% of fatty acids) and see how that works.  I suspect it's going to be somewhat like the castor oil soaps -- not bad, but not great.  Unbalanced in the other direction, not enough oleic acid to get really good lather.


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## psfred (Jun 17, 2017)

Another update.

I tried the castor oil/tallow/coconut soap again today since it now has some age on it.  First think I noticed was that it lathers up initially like hand soap -- large bubbles, wet thin lather.  Worked up OK, but I had to load more than usual to get dense foam.  

Holds more water now, and the lather is much more stable than it was initially, but it still gets "thin" when I add enough water to make it decently slick.  Adequate shave feel, nothing great.  Much better slickness after shaving, I can wet my hand and get my skin slippery, but it's not a slick as the soy wax soap at any point.

More irritation than with the soy wax recipe I shaved with yesterday (same blade), and it still leaves a distinctly unpleasant sticky feel post shave.  

Much improved over initial impressions, but it's still a pretty average soap for shaving.  Probably won't go to waste, but I won't make it again, it's not better in any way than my other formulas.


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## HowieRoll (Jun 17, 2017)

psfred, I appreciate all the updates/reviews you've given.  This past Christmas I got my husband a Merkur 23C razor, synthetic brush, sample pack of blades, and made shaving soap.  As a man who shaved for 40 years with disposables it was life-changing and he can't stop raving about how incredible his shaves have been.  I told him about the Wilkinson Sword blades you use and he immediately purchased a 5-pack to try (hasn't used them just yet).   

My shave soap recipe does not include stearic acid, and I was curious which soy wax you used?  I've been down that rabbit hole many times and continue to get confused about which ones are high stearic and suitable for bath and beauty products.

I know there are so many variables with personal preference, technique, and tools, but again, I appreciate your taking the time to post your findings!


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## psfred (Jun 17, 2017)

Glad this was useful for you.  I bought mine of eBay, it's 415 grade soy wax with a melting point of 125F, from Mets Candles and more.  Make sure it's pure, fully hydrogenated soy bean oil, it's also available with paraffins added for making candles, which would not be very nice in soap, I don't think.

I would hot process, since you have more control over the superfat that way.  I don't think soy wax would be very useful as superfat, it's a solid at anything near the end use temperature!  

Stearic acid is also fairly easy to use, but you must hot process that, it saponifies instantly when you add the lye.  

Make a tiny batch (100 gr of oils) and see how it works before making a large amount -- it takes very little soap to get a good shave, and a 100 gr batch looks like it will last me at least six months.

Razor blades are a highly individual thing, what works for one person won't for another (or they will work nicely in one razor and not another), so your husband should not be upset if he doesn't like the Wilkinsons.  I find Polsilver SI blades to be a pain, for example -- very very sharp, but I get bad shaves with them every time no matter what razor I use.  Even with three passes I can feel stubble by lunch, while with the Wilkinsons  I barely have stubble at 9 pm.  Can't be that much difference in the actual edge, the blades are only 0.005" thick.

Enjoy!


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## Britannic (Jun 18, 2017)

For my shaving soaps, I use fully hydrogenated soy wax which has approximately 87% stearic acid.

@psfred beat me to posting a reply, concur!


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## HowieRoll (Jun 18, 2017)

psfred said:


> Glad this was useful for you.  I bought mine of eBay, it's 415 grade soy wax with a melting point of 125F, from Mets Candles and more.  Make sure it's pure, fully hydrogenated soy bean oil, it's also available with paraffins added for making candles, which would not be very nice in soap, I don't think.
> 
> I would hot process, since you have more control over the superfat that way.  I don't think soy wax would be very useful as superfat, it's a solid at anything near the end use temperature!
> 
> ...



Thanks for the soy info and additional tips!  And I can promise you  my husband won't be upset if he doesn't care for the Wilkinsons.  This whole thing has opened up a new world for him and he's just been enjoying trying out new types to see which ones work - and was especially impressed by how many shaves you got with them.  




Britannic said:


> For my shaving soaps, I use fully hydrogenated soy wax which has approximately 87% stearic acid.
> 
> @psfred beat me to posting a reply, concur!



Elements Bath and Body indicates the Golden Brands 415 Soy Wax is partially hydrogenated, which is where I've always gotten confused before because I've read to look for fully hydrogenated.  At any rate, think I just need to give it a whirl to see how it performs.  

Thank you!


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## Britannic (Jun 18, 2017)

This NGI Elements blog has a good explanation of the different Soy Waxes, so you can avoid the blended versions that may contain adhesives and other non-desirable additives for soap making.


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## HowieRoll (Jun 18, 2017)

Thanks, Brittanic!


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## mistral (Jun 18, 2017)

I heard that soy wax doesn't hold fragrance very well. Is that true?


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## Britannic (Jun 19, 2017)

mistral said:


> I heard that soy wax doesn't hold fragrance very well. Is that true?



Well, there are many other factors involved in getting scents/fragrances to stick in soap, but are you planning 100% Soy Wax soap? I've had no problems so far with my EO blends for shaving soaps using up to 51% SW, but YMMV.


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## mistral (Jun 19, 2017)

Britannic said:


> Well, there are many other factors involved in getting scents/fragrances to stick in soap, but are you planning 100% Soy Wax soap? I've had no problems so far with my EO blends for shaving soaps using up to 51% SW, but YMMV.




Could you please elaborate on the many factor you mention. Maybe I can get few tips from you. Thank you in advance.


I did have problems with scents using soy wax at 50% (100% hydrogenated soy wax - additives free). I was only using essential oils. EO don't seems to have the tenacity FOs have. The scent would vanish fro the soap with 4-5 days!


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## Britannic (Jun 19, 2017)

@mistral, the list is by no means inclusive, but factors affecting scent life are:



Which essential oils/fragrances are used
HP vs. CP
Temperature of soap or emulsion when the EO/FO is added
Which other oils/additives besides SW make up the recipe
Water weight (more = longer cure and evaporation, which can pull more scent out of the soap)
Storage environment of the finished soap
Size/weight of the finished soap product
Total amounts used of the EOs/FOs


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## psfred (Jun 19, 2017)

Let us know how your soap turns out.  

Personally, unscented shaving soap is fine by me, I'm not fond of any scent early in the morning except maybe fresh coffee, I'm barely awake.  I certainly don't want any scent to linger after the shave.  Just me.

I have found that most of what I've tried fades, especially lemon and lemongrass oils.  By the end of a month, it's all gone.  Bulk Apothecary Sandalwood seems to last well, at a VERY low rate (1 gr ppo) and is quite enough for me. 

The lather is great though, I will probably make another batch soon.  I have a young friend who is using up his sample at an appalling rate by my standards, but soap is cheap and he likes it much better than canned foam.  I bought a 3 lb bag of soy wax, I could probably make him a lifetime supply -- I nearly have my own from experiments so far!


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