# Soy Wax Users



## KiwiMoose (Jan 17, 2019)

Hi there,

I would like to reach out to all CP soapers who use Soy Wax in their recipes.  I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about genetic modification, or hydrogenation or veganism or anti-palm.  I just want to discuss the benefits/issues/drawbacks related to using soy wax in soap.

Is there anybody out there who uses it?  Let's talk!


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 17, 2019)

*waits patiently*


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## dibbles (Jan 17, 2019)

I've used it when I was testing vegan/palm free recipes. I think I used it at the most at 10%, along with cocoa butter. It made a nice, hard bar. I don't have a lot of experience with it, but even at 5% it works well. I am always leery of too much butter killing the lather.


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## Dean (Jan 17, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about genetic modification, or hydrogenation or veganism or anti-palm.



Well that's no fun!  I was ready for the mud-slinging to commence.  

I'm interested to know how many others out there soap with SW.  I think we may be rare breed.

I currently use SW @ 40% and get great lather with 10% lauric+myristic.


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## lenarenee (Jan 17, 2019)

Nope never used it simply because - well - it's soy and conjurs up so many negative thoughts.

However, I've been find using soaps with a small amount of soy oil in the past.  And because Dean and someone else have been excited about it I would consider it if there was a really "clean" source.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 17, 2019)

I’ve been using it at 20% in my latest recipes. Also Babassu and/or coconut and Shea. Then the soft oils on top of that.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 17, 2019)

Somebody here (can't remember) uses it at 40%. I don't love GMO, but I'm all for using a crop that can be grown widely, that improves the soil (thus reducing need for fertilizer) and feeds people and animals. I don't care for regular soybean oil in soap - I think it doesn't bring much to the table, vs something like rice bran or sunflower that is also inexpensive but brings more to the table.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 17, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> Somebody here (can't remember) uses it at 40%. I don't love GMO, but I'm all for using a crop that can be grown widely, that improves the soil (thus reducing need for fertilizer) and feeds people and animals. I don't care for regular soybean oil in soap - I think it doesn't bring much to the table, vs something like rice bran or sunflower that is also inexpensive but brings more to the table.


Yes I’m a big lover of rice bran at present.


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## Hendejm (Jan 17, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Yes I’m a big lover of rice bran at present.


Because I’m basically lazy - what’s the benefit of rice bran oil?  I want to play around with a new recipe and it may be a fun one to try!


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## msunnerstood (Jan 17, 2019)

Ive used it in HP and found it improved the texture.


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## Dawni (Jan 17, 2019)

Hendejm said:


> Because I’m basically lazy - what’s the benefit of rice bran oil?  I want to play around with a new recipe and it may be a fun one to try!


It's also a high oleic oil that costs less than olive oil, which I read, is what it's similar to when you soap with it. 

No info in soy wax, sorry. I was thinking to try it but have not had the time to research. Even here it's less costly than cocoa or shea butter. I also do not use palm and don't have access to tallow or lard. Beeswax costs between those, but I've only tried it once, and the properties are way different then soy so can't really help lol


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## Dean (Jan 17, 2019)

Dawni said:


> It's also a high oleic oil that costs less than olive oil, which I read, is what it's similar to when you soap with it.
> 
> No info in soy wax, sorry. I was thinking to try it but have not had the time to research. Even here it's less costly than cocoa or shea butter. I also do not use palm and don't have access to tallow or lard. Beeswax costs between those, but I've only tried it once, and the properties are way different then soy so can't really help lol



I’d send u some if u weren’t so far and away.  It’s fab!


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## smengot0 (Jan 18, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I’ve been using it at 20% in my latest recipes. Also Babassu and/or coconut and Shea. Then the soft oils on top of that.



And how was good was the finished bar? Hope it was impressive enough. Thanks


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 18, 2019)

Hendejm said:


> Because I’m basically lazy - what’s the benefit of rice bran oil?  I want to play around with a new recipe and it may be a fun one to try!


It's higher in palmitic, plus it adds a bit more creaminess to the lather. And it is sooooo cheap!



smengot0 said:


> And how was good was the finished bar? Hope it was impressive enough. Thanks


The bars are lovely to use. You can even leave them soaking in their own water and they retain firmness without turning to sludge. Here's some pics:

















msunnerstood said:


> Ive used it in HP and found it improved the texture.


You mean soy wax?


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## smengot0 (Jan 18, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> The bars are lovely to use. You can even leave them soaking in their own water and they retain firmness without turning to sludge. Here's some pics:
> View attachment 35191
> View attachment 35192
> View attachment 35193
> View attachment 35194



Thanks for the feedback. For the firmness (even when wet), I will surely get some soy wax to try soon.

Love the soap pictures. Thanks


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 18, 2019)

smengot0 said:


> Thanks for the feedback. For the firmness (even when wet), I will surely get some soy wax to try soon.
> 
> Love the soap pictures. Thanks


That purple one (daphne scented) I gave to a friend to try (after I had sampled it myself and was very happy with the texture and found it to be quite creamy and soft feeling) and she LOVED it.  She said she doesn't usually like bar soap because she has dry skin and it usually makes it worse.  However she said this left her hands feeling quite moisturised and soft.

Recipe (remember I have been dubbed Princess Poly-Oil by @Dean):
Apricot Kernel Oil: 15%
Babassu Oil: 10%
Castor Oil: 10%
Coconut Oil: 15%
Olive Oil: 20%
Shea Butter: 10%
Soy Wax (415): 20%

Lye Conc: 30%
Super Fat: 5%


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## bink0602 (Jan 18, 2019)

Hi there
 I use soy wax  in a few of my small batches. I have several customers who requested it and they love it. I use it at 15% to 20% and it makes the lather feel creamier but doesn't reduce it at all. It also add hardness. I make both HP and CP. Tj


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## SaltedFig (Jan 18, 2019)

Rice bran oil also gives a lustre to soap that I haven't seen created by any other oil.
(I don't have a local source for organic, otherwise I would be using it in my recipes - it's a nice oil for soaping).


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## KimT2au (Jan 18, 2019)

I haven't used soy wax yet but do have a tub of it here to try.  Is rice bran oil prone to DOS at all?


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## shunt2011 (Jan 18, 2019)

KimT2au said:


> I haven't used soy wax yet but do have a tub of it here to try.  Is rice bran oil prone to DOS at all?



I’ve never gotten DOS with Rice Bran.  Not saying it couldn’t happen.  It can happen with almost anything.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 18, 2019)

KimT2au said:


> I haven't used soy wax yet but do have a tub of it here to try.  Is rice bran oil prone to DOS at all?


Ask me in 6 months or more 
I usually use around 15%, but I'm still tweaking my 'ultimate' recipe, so it can vary. But at 15% that keeps the linoleic and linolenic combined at 10% so hopefully won't get to see any DOS.



lenarenee said:


> Nope never used it simply because - well - it's soy and conjurs up so many negative thoughts.
> 
> However, I've been find using soaps with a small amount of soy oil in the past.  And because Dean and someone else have been excited about it I would consider it if there was a really "clean" source.


I know I said I didn't want to enter into any debates, BUT....

I started to ponder the many comments and outright negativity towards SW by many on this site.  It's interesting how we don't have that so much in New Zealand, but we do get it against Palm oil.  I think it has all comes down to propaganda, for both types of oil.  

Our propaganda in NZ is greatly focused against palm for deforestation issues, and also seemingly 'sustainable' sources still being exploitative of the land and workers thereof (search Guatemalan Palm Oil farmers exploitation).

Whereas I think in the USA there seems to be a lot of propaganda against soy - mainly from the dairy and or meat industry who want to stop the migration of consumers from animal products to soy products (search anti soy campaigns USA). Notwithstanding - I think we are all agreed that Monsanto's GMO and dirty tactics against the small farmers - accusing them of 'theft' because the farmers' organic soy was being cross pollinated with Monsanto's 'super soy' - is unacceptable.

Because we don't grow soy, or palm, in New Zealand - I guess the media feeds us with the stories most relevant to us, and palm being the closer geographically (main crops are in Asia) gets the main rap.

So all that said, I think there are reasons to use, or not to use, either of these oils depending on which facts or elaborations of facts ( or even outright lies in some cases) you choose to accept or ignore.

All I know is - in New Zealand, people WILL ask if the soap is palm free, because that is what they know to ask.  No-one would bat an eyelid about soy.  I'm guessing it's the same for soy in USA - people WILL ask if it is soy- free (or at least baulk at the idea of having soy in their soap) but not mind so much about palm.

Then of course - there is the difference between what people will eat, and what they will put on their body. I will eat soy, and so therefore when wanting to make a vegan soap, soy is my preference.  I won't eat palm, so....won't use it in my soap either.  And, you may have palm in a lot of your products in the USA, but we don't here to the extreme that you do, and certainly not if food is prepared from scratch, which is still fairly common in the NZ household, although less so in the last decade or so. It is rare that anyone would use a product such as your 'Crisco'.  people simply don't use that kind of thing in cooking any more. We do have a similar product, but it's made with coconut oil, and it is certainly not a common household item (very hard to find in the supermarkets).

I'm not vegan, nor vegetarian. I love me bacon!   But I don't want to make animal fat soaps.  I have nothing against animal fat soaps.  I'm sure they are lovely, and I don't doubt that they produce a good bar of soap. I just don't want to use it in my soap that I make.

Anyhoo - what a conundrum!  I want to make vegan soap, and only vegan soap.  If I want a hard bar and don't want to spend a fortune, I either make salt soaps only for the rest of my life, or I use either palm, or soy. I've chosen soy. many of you have chosen palm.  

So let's go forth and make soap happily with our chosen 'politically incorrect', non-sustainable, questionably sustainable, genetically modified, Monsanto tainted, dairy/meat industry hate-campaigned OIL OF CHOICE.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Jan 18, 2019)

I have no clue on where to get soy wax, i would try it if i could. Well, i havent search for it either. That is one of the “basic oils” i havent tried yet.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 18, 2019)

Alfa_Lazcares said:


> I have no clue on where to get soy wax, i would try it if i could. Well, i havent search for it either. That is one of the “basic oils” i havent tried yet.


Can you order from the USA Alfa?


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Can you order from the USA Alfa?



Probably, but i dont think that would be very cost effective. Shipping is the reason i dont order micas and FO’s from the US, its just waaaaay too expensive and to really make it worth it i would have to order a lot of product. Which would probably would come with customs. Nope.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 19, 2019)

Alfa_Lazcares said:


> Probably, but i dont think that would be very cost effective. Shipping is the reason i dont order micas and FO’s from the US, its just waaaaay too expensive and to really make it worth it i would have to order a lot of product. Which would probably would come with customs. Nope.


That's a shame.  Next time I come to Mexico I'll bring you some 
I've never been to DF though - I flew in to Guadalajara last time.


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## Dean (Jan 19, 2019)

I think it depends on the othe


KimT2au said:


> I haven't used soy wax yet but do have a tub of it here to try.  Is rice bran oil prone to DOS at all?



I think it depends on how much ur total lins are in ur recipie


KiwiMoose said:


> I know I said I didn't want to enter into any debates, BUT....
> 
> I started to ponder the many comments and outright negativity towards SW by many on this site.  It's interesting how we don't have that so much in New Zealand, but we do get it against Palm oil.  I think it has all comes down to propaganda, for both types of oil.
> 
> ...



I find ur thoughts on soy and propaganda from the USA meat and dairy industry interesting.   I’ve noticed recently the dairy industry targeting  plant based alternatives with neg mrktg campains.  However I never connected neg mrktg to this new consumer belief that soy is BAD.  But it does explain the “no soy” labels on products. 

I’ve seen this twice before in my lifetime.  First it was fat that was BAD around the 80s.  Those studies were financed by the sugar industry who was getting bad press for causing heart disease.  And how did process foods maintain flavor during the fat free trend?  By Increasing SUGAR and salt!  And guess what..people got fatter!

 Now u see this trend with gluten (wheat).  Guy Fieri (tool) did a “healthy” cooking show last week where a chef made deep fried donuts covered in sugar that were “healthy” cuz they were gluten free.   Gluten isnt unhealthy unless u have celiac disease.  

Thx Ms Moose for reminding us how mrktg affects our choices, health and the planet.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> That's a shame.  Next time I come to Mexico I'll bring you some
> I've never been to DF though - I flew in to Guadalajara last time.



Out of curiosity I googled where could i get it and found a place that sells only waxes, so i found bees wax, sooooper special bees wax,  soy wax, rice wax, palm wax? Carnauba wax? Candelilla wax? I have no clue what that is, but i forsee a trip to the Zocalo in my future, they dont list prices but eh, we’ll see.


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## Dean (Jan 19, 2019)

Some “waxes” are actually hydrogenated oil like soy.  Candelillia is the vegan alt to bees wax grown in mex.  Carnauba is a palm product.


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## SaltedFig (Jan 19, 2019)

Hydrogenated oil "waxes" tend to work like tallow (beef fat) in soap - the hydrogenation process is used to convert the double bonds into single bonds by adding a hydrogen atom into the fatty acid - converting the "soft" oils into harder fats in the process.

True waxes (such as beeswax, Carnauba, Candelilla etc.) are naturally hard and tend to have a lot more unsaponifiables.

Rice bran wax is a true wax, but rice bran oil (and the wax) is generally extracted using chemical extraction (it is possible to buy it as an organic product, without the chemical extraction, but it is fiendishly expensive).

Soy wax is hydrogenated, palm wax is (or was originally) Carnauba wax, but there are also hydrogenated palm waxes, so expect that palm wax will be the hydrogenated version unless it specifically states that it is Carnauba/the natural wax (not the hydrogenated oil, which is much cheaper to produce).

You should be able to get Candelilla more easily/cheaper than I can - it is native to your country (lucky duck!).


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 19, 2019)

I love the lather on this soap! It's very thick and creamy.  It's the same recipe as the one I gave back there ^, with the addition of some desiccated coconut in the soap which i think is adding to the lather.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Jan 19, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> Hydrogenated oil "waxes" tend to work like tallow (beef fat) in soap - the hydrogenation process is used to convert the double bonds into single bonds by adding a hydrogen atom into the fatty acid - converting the "soft" oils into harder fats in the process.
> 
> True waxes (such as beeswax, Carnauba, Candelilla etc.) are naturally hard and tend to have a lot more unsaponifiables.
> 
> ...



So what you are saying is.... GET THEM AND TRY THEM?! XD 

They have both the “palm wax” and the “carnauba wax”. I should have known i could get them. This is a very VERY catholic country and candles are THE thing. This is a candle supplier store that is called “jesus something something”. 


Are this waxes listed on soapcac? I am already thinking of making soap with them and i dont even have them yet!


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## Chris_S (Jan 19, 2019)

Dean said:


> Now u see this trend with gluten (wheat).  Guy Fieri (tool) did a “healthy” cooking show last week where a chef made deep fried donuts covered in sugar that were “healthy” cuz they were gluten free.   Gluten isnt unhealthy unless u have celiac disease.
> 
> Thx Ms Moose for reminding us how mrktg affects our choices, health and the planet.



Spot on Dean it makes me laugh that everyone who has jumped on the gluten free bandwagon because they seem to think its healthier. I understand that some people can be gluten intolerant too as well as people who have celiac dieses but Kitten Love did people do before all this gluten free stuff that companies make now.

@KiwiMoose very interesting post there and as someone else outside of the usa can see where you are coming from as an outsider regarding anti soy propaganda we have been getting more and more palm free ect foods but really i dont understand why we have so much convience meals i made a stir fry with quorn last week that took all of 10 minutes including prep and cook and a quorn curry that took about half an hour again from prep to cook i was eating it after half an hour and it was onwle the best curries iv ever made from scratch



Alfa_Lazcares said:


> So what you are saying is.... GET THEM AND TRY THEM?! XD
> 
> They have both the “palm wax” and the “carnauba wax”. I should have known i could get them. This is a very VERY catholic country and candles are THE thing. This is a candle supplier store that is called “jesus something something”.
> 
> ...



Almost certain iv see candulla wax or whatever its called on the forum soap calc not sure about palm wax never seen that but then again iv never looked for it. Iv heard of it but iv got about 35kg of soy wax so dont need any other types of wax


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 19, 2019)

Alfa_Lazcares said:


> So what you are saying is.... GET THEM AND TRY THEM?! XD
> 
> 
> Are this waxes listed on soapcac? I am already thinking of making soap with them and i dont even have them yet!


Yes, but be careful with the soy wax at least that you find one with no additives (in USA it’s GW415). Most of the candle waxes have additional ingredients that allow stability for candles.


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## SaltedFig (Jan 19, 2019)

@Alfa_Lazcares Oh yes! Try real waxes in soap!

Some of them are in soapcalc - you'd have to look (beeswax is).

Because not much is needed, and true waxes don't tend to have a great deal of saponifiables, it wouldn't matter terribly if you didn't add any extra lye for them


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## lenarenee (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Yes, but be careful with the soy wax at least that you find one with no additives (in USA it’s GW415). Most of the candle waxes have additional ingredients that allow stability for candles.



And I would even do some fact checking on that because the wax industry is still chaotic. Chandlers talk about how every single order of wax they get is different from the previous and they have to retest and often rewick.


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## KimT2au (Jan 19, 2019)

Chris_S said:


> Spot on Dean it makes me laugh that everyone who has jumped on the gluten free bandwagon because they seem to think its healthier. I understand that some people can be gluten intolerant too as well as people who have celiac dieses but Kitten Love did people do before all this gluten free stuff that companies make now.



I don't want to hijack this thread but thought I might just offer a slight insight into our situation, although be warned there are graphic poop descriptions to follow.  My feeling is that gluten intolerance is the latest fad illness.  Celiacs disease is a real condition and has been recognised for a number of years.  For those that are truly gluten intolerant it is an awful complaint. As for what used to happen to people with intolerances and/or allergies in an earlier time I would say that as babies they did not thrive and may well have had a shorter life span (depending on how far back in history you wish to go.)  As adults they would have been constantly ill and would have been considered sickly.  Our own situation is a little different in that our 18 year old daughter has multiple food allergies which were diagnosed at 9 months of age by a paediatric allergist.  She is allergic to wheat (note, that is wheat and not gluten), potato, barley, dairy, eggs and dogs.  The Dr suggested we get rid of our dog but we pointed out we had the dog before we had the baby so that stopped that conversation there.  We have found she can eat Spelt and Kamut flour due to their shorter protein chains.  Anyway, I digress.  From day 1 it was clear DD had a problem as she cried after eating (she was breast fed for 15 months) and developed eczema all over her body.  She had to have clean sheets on her cot every day due to the amount of blood on the sheets from where her wounds had broken open and bled while she slept.  Her poo (sorry to get graphic here) was something to behold as it was so dense that it was in balls and if they accidentally rolled off of a nappy they actually bounced!  Our daughter was being 100% breast fed and our doctor just kept getting us to try cream after cream after cream and we spent an absolute fortune.  One day we ended up seeing a different doctor who sent us to a paediatric allergist who changed our lives.  He diagnosed DD's allergies and told me to remove those foods from my diet as she was receiving the proteins via the breast milk.  I immediately changed my diet and it was like a miracle had happened.  Within 24 hours all of the eczema on her body, except for one small patch on an ankle, had disappeared and at 9 months of age she finally smiled for the first time in her life, yep, there had been no smiles to that point which I am guessing is because she was in constant pain.  18 years ago trying to get any sort of food stuffs that fitted with her allergies was impossible but luckily I have always like to cook. I learned very early to read ingredient labels on absolutely everything.

Although DD is now 18 years old, she still has not outgrown her allergies and  has them for life.  If she eats things she should not she will break out in eczema within a matter of hours.

So, in answer to your question of what happened to people with intolerances and/or allergies (because they aren't the same thing) in an earlier time, I think we can look at my daughter's experience and  say they simply did not thrive and, in a more extreme case and an earlier time period, would have died.

Enough of being a negative Nelly and back to the discussion of soap and all things soap related.


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## MGM (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I'm not vegan, nor vegetarian. I love me bacon!   But I don't want to make animal fat soaps.  I have nothing against animal fat soaps.  I'm sure they are lovely, and I don't doubt that they produce a good bar of soap. I just don't want to use it in my soap that I make.


Fascinating, Kiwi! I can understand a vegetarian's opposition to making/using lard or tallow in soaps, although Marie Rayma's anti-palm/pro-lard argument is VERY compelling (she's a vegetarian). If you eat meat, and acknowledge that lard/tallow makes a great bar of soap, why are you opposed to using a locally-sourced waste product and choose instead to use an imported product? Not challenging you; just wondering. The comments on Marie's site are pretty vociferous (if mis-informed), but this angle (meat eating soapmaker who goes to soy wax instead of lard) isn't represented.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 19, 2019)

I don't use animal fat because I think it would be icky to use 

Ok, ok - maybe I will try a batch with lard and see how it goes.  Tell me - which of the animals fats is the slowest to trace?  I want to use that one.

I don't think any of my friends/family will want to use them though.  It's very unusual to find animal fat soaps now in NZ. My 'chief soap tester' is vegetarian and she won't touch it with a barge pole!  Especially lard - she is very fond of piggies.


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## Chris_S (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I don't use animal fat because I think it would be icky to use
> 
> Ok, ok - maybe I will try a batch with lard and see how it goes.  Tell me - which of the animals fats is the slowest to trace?  I want to use that one.
> 
> I don't think any of my friends/family will want to use them though.  It's very unusual to find animal fat soaps now in NZ. My 'chief soap tester' is vegetarian and she won't touch it with a barge pole!  Especially lard - she is very fond of piggies.



I have a friend who is vegitarian and has been for longer than iv even been alive and i mentioned lard soap and he just said well i cant see why i couldnt try it i mean i wear leather shoes its no different to that

@KimT2au my sister had simular problems with my niece and allergies while breast feeding but they were lucky that they were very effective and quick at figuring out what was causing it and has had several allergy tests since to see if she has grown out of it. I agree with you about the people were just put down as being ill. But i also wonder how much the general poor diets of people and the methods used to grow crops ect is to blame for such illnesses and intolerances to certain foods. Look at bse that was brought on if im not mistaken by the diet of the cows that had been infected and ultimatly that diet is even if indirectly introduced into our diet. I dont know if your aware but there was a massive scandle few years ago in the uk where nearly all supermarkets were exposed to having sold food mostly ready meals with horse meat supplied from i have a feeling it was romania how much they were aware of im not sure but someone was fully aware and felt no guilt doing this which brings me back to questioning our general diets and what degree of cause this has. Im glad that ultimately you managed to sort out things with your daughter even if it did take some time and effort to get some action.

I do have one big question for you its why didnt mention that i wrote kitten love in the middle of the sentence? i had to read it a few times to try figure out how on earth that got there and why you didnt question its presence in that sentence?


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## KimT2au (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I don't use animal fat because I think it would be icky to use
> 
> Ok, ok - maybe I will try a batch with lard and see how it goes.  Tell me - which of the animals fats is the slowest to trace?  I want to use that one.
> 
> I don't think any of my friends/family will want to use them though.  It's very unusual to find animal fat soaps now in NZ. My 'chief soap tester' is vegetarian and she won't touch it with a barge pole!  Especially lard - she is very fond of piggies.



Ummmm, I think lard is the slowest to trace.  Sorry.


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## MGM (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I don't use animal fat because I think it would be icky to use
> 
> Ok, ok - maybe I will try a batch with lard and see how it goes.  Tell me - which of the animals fats is the slowest to trace?  I want to use that one.
> 
> I don't think any of my friends/family will want to use them though.  It's very unusual to find animal fat soaps now in NZ. My 'chief soap tester' is vegetarian and she won't touch it with a barge pole!  Especially lard - she is very fond of piggies.



Icky to use? I mean, I find taking apart a raw turkey carcass icky, but I can't imagine that scooping out white lard instead of scooping out white coconut oil would faze me one bit. I haven't soaped with animal fats yet, as I've got to get through this darn pail of palm oil that I bought before I knew better, but given that we buy a 1/2 cow every year and live across the street from a butcher's, it would be hard to get more local and sustainably sourced than that for me.

I'm surprised that soap in NZ isn't made with animal fats....aren't pretty much *all* commercial soaps made with tallow? I've never been there, but I figured you'd have Dove and Ivory, perhaps even Irish Spring? ;-)


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## KimT2au (Jan 19, 2019)

Chris_S said:


> I have a friend who is vegitarian and has been for longer than iv even been alive and i mentioned lard soap and he just said well i cant see why i couldnt try it i mean i wear leather shoes its no different to that
> 
> @KimT2au my sister had simular problems with my niece and allergies while breast feeding but they were lucky that they were very effective and quick at figuring out what was causing it and has had several allergy tests since to see if she has grown out of it. I agree with you about the people were just put down as being ill. But i also wonder how much the general poor diets of people and the methods used to grow crops ect is to blame for such illnesses and intolerances to certain foods. Look at bse that was brought on if im not mistaken by the diet of the cows that had been infected and ultimatly that diet is even if indirectly introduced into our diet. I dont know if your aware but there was a massive scandle few years ago in the uk where nearly all supermarkets were exposed to having sold food mostly ready meals with horse meat supplied from i have a feeling it was romania how much they were aware of im not sure but someone was fully aware and felt no guilt doing this which brings me back to questioning our general diets and what degree of cause this has. Im glad that ultimately you managed to sort out things with your daughter even if it did take some time and effort to get some action.
> 
> I do have one big question for you its why didn't mention that i wrote kitten love in the middle of the sentence? i had to read it a few times to try figure out how on earth that got there and why you didn't question its presence in that sentence?



LOL, I did see the Kitten Love but figured that was an auto correct issue so ignored it    I was living in the UK at the time of the BSE incident and can only shake my head at the stupidity of thinking it is OK to feed cows food made from dried fish.  Of course it isn't as cows are not meant to eat fish, they eat grasses and grains and such like; no wonder there was a problem. It was a tragedy that it had such dire consequently.  I was back in Australia by the time the hose meat scandal occurred but we did see the media coverage.  It did make me wonder though as in some countries horse is a delicacy and if we eat cows and sheep, and possibly kangaroo, crocodile, goat, emu and buffalo, then why not horses.  My only complaint would be that the products would have been mislabelled.


----------



## Chris_S (Jan 19, 2019)

KimT2au said:


> LOL, I did see the Kitten Love but figured that was an auto correct issue so ignored it    I was living in the UK at the time of the BSE incident and can only shake my head at the stupidity of thinking it is OK to feed cows food made from dried fish.  Of course it isn't as cows are not meant to eat fish, they eat grasses and grains and such like; no wonder there was a problem. It was a tragedy that it had such dire consequently.  I was back in Australia by the time the hose meat scandal occurred but we did see the media coverage.  It did make me wonder though as in some countries horse is a delicacy and if we eat cows and sheep, and possibly kangaroo, crocodile, goat, emu and buffalo, then why not horses.  My only complaint would be that the products would have been mislabelled.



Mislabelled and of course because it is not an approved meat also not vet checked or regulated in any kind of way. How do we know that horse wasnt coughing and spluttering till its dying breathe.

I was young when the bse happened byt i remember the effects of it very clearly thats the first and only time in peace time thaat the isle of man tt wasnt held.

I try to avoid ready meals the best i can and try to cook from scratch or at least with frozen veg if i waant a quick thrown together meal

No idea where the kitty love came from coincidently i am getting big kitty hugs.

Where abouts in england did you live?


----------



## Alfa_Lazcares (Jan 19, 2019)

MGM said:


> Icky to use? I mean, I find taking apart a raw turkey carcass icky, but I can't imagine that scooping out white lard instead of scooping out white coconut oil would faze me one bit. I haven't soaped with animal fats yet, as I've got to get through this darn pail of palm oil that I bought before I knew better, but given that we buy a 1/2 cow every year and live across the street from a butcher's,




Lard has a very particular  smell I find suuuuuper icky, also, once the soap is made there is some lard smell that lingers and I just don't like it. Having said that, use a few other oils and some strong FO and you are good to go.


I like lard in my soaps, they bring some creamyness you can't find with other oils but be careful not to overheat them so there is no piggy smell.


And yes, lard is hard to trace...


----------



## Dean (Jan 19, 2019)

KimT2au said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread but thought I might just offer a slight insight into our situation, although be warned there are graphic poop descriptions to follow.  My feeling is that gluten intolerance is the latest fad illness.  Celiacs disease is a real condition and has been recognised for a number of years.  For those that are truly gluten intolerant it is an awful complaint. As for what used to happen to people with intolerances and/or allergies in an earlier time I would say that as babies they did not thrive and may well have had a shorter life span (depending on how far back in history you wish to go.)  As adults they would have been constantly ill and would have been considered sickly.  Our own situation is a little different in that our 18 year old daughter has multiple food allergies which were diagnosed at 9 months of age by a paediatric allergist.  She is allergic to wheat (note, that is wheat and not gluten), potato, barley, dairy, eggs and dogs.  The Dr suggested we get rid of our dog but we pointed out we had the dog before we had the baby so that stopped that conversation there.  We have found she can eat Spelt and Kamut flour due to their shorter protein chains.  Anyway, I digress.  From day 1 it was clear DD had a problem as she cried after eating (she was breast fed for 15 months) and developed eczema all over her body.  She had to have clean sheets on her cot every day due to the amount of blood on the sheets from where her wounds had broken open and bled while she slept.  Her poo (sorry to get graphic here) was something to behold as it was so dense that it was in balls and if they accidentally rolled off of a nappy they actually bounced!  Our daughter was being 100% breast fed and our doctor just kept getting us to try cream after cream after cream and we spent an absolute fortune.  One day we ended up seeing a different doctor who sent us to a paediatric allergist who changed our lives.  He diagnosed DD's allergies and told me to remove those foods from my diet as she was receiving the proteins via the breast milk.  I immediately changed my diet and it was like a miracle had happened.  Within 24 hours all of the eczema on her body, except for one small patch on an ankle, had disappeared and at 9 months of age she finally smiled for the first time in her life, yep, there had been no smiles to that point which I am guessing is because she was in constant pain.  18 years ago trying to get any sort of food stuffs that fitted with her allergies was impossible but luckily I have always like to cook. I learned very early to read ingredient labels on absolutely everything.
> 
> Although DD is now 18 years old, she still has not outgrown her allergies and  has them for life.  If she eats things she should not she will break out in eczema within a matter of hours.
> 
> ...



Thx for sharing.  Spounds like it was tough go pre-diagnosis.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 19, 2019)

Chris_S said:


> I have a friend who is vegitarian and has been for longer than iv even been alive and i mentioned lard soap and he just said well i cant see why i couldnt try it i mean i wear leather shoes its no different to that
> 
> @KimT2au my sister had simular problems with my niece and allergies while breast feeding but they were lucky that they were very effective and quick at figuring out what was causing it and has had several allergy tests since to see if she has grown out of it. I agree with you about the people were just put down as being ill. But i also wonder how much the general poor diets of people and the methods used to grow crops ect is to blame for such illnesses and intolerances to certain foods. Look at bse that was brought on if im not mistaken by the diet of the cows that had been infected and ultimatly that diet is even if indirectly introduced into our diet. I dont know if your aware but there was a massive scandle few years ago in the uk where nearly all supermarkets were exposed to having sold food mostly ready meals with horse meat supplied from i have a feeling it was romania how much they were aware of im not sure but someone was fully aware and felt no guilt doing this which brings me back to questioning our general diets and what degree of cause this has. Im glad that ultimately you managed to sort out things with your daughter even if it did take some time and effort to get some action.
> 
> I do have one big question for you its why didnt mention that i wrote kitten love in the middle of the sentence? i had to read it a few times to try figure out how on earth that got there and why you didnt question its presence in that sentence?


Kitten love is SMF code for W..T..F.  If your write that, it will be changed to Kitten love.


----------



## Dean (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Ok, ok - maybe I will try a batch with lard and see how it goes.  Tell me - which of the animals fats is the slowest to trace?  I want to use that one.



I’m shocked and appalled!!!

Not really.  But if u start soaping with palm...that’s deal breaker.  

Im actually amused the SW thread has become the animal fat thread.  Oh well!


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 19, 2019)

@KimT2au my son was very similar.  At 4 months I knew something was wrong (solely breast-fed) and i asked our GP - is it something I'M eating?  She said no, don't be silly, and gave me some hydrocortisone cream for my little baby's skin. Not bloody likely!  So I ended up going to a naturopath who told me to stop eating eggs, milk, nuts etc and my son's skin (and smelly poo) cleared up overnight!  He also was struggling to put on weight but it was his weepy wet eczema that was the biggest tell-tale sign that something wasn't right.



Dean said:


> I’m shocked and appalled!!!
> 
> Not really.  But if u start soaping with palm...that’s deal breaker.
> 
> Im actually amused the SW thread has become the animal fat thread.  Oh well!


I'm bringing it back to soy now @Dean, because from what i have read, and what @Alfa_Lazcares has said about piggy smell, I ain't going there.



MGM said:


> Icky to use? I mean, I find taking apart a raw turkey carcass icky, but I can't imagine that scooping out white lard instead of scooping out white coconut oil would faze me one bit. I haven't soaped with animal fats yet, as I've got to get through this darn pail of palm oil that I bought before I knew better, but given that we buy a 1/2 cow every year and live across the street from a butcher's, it would be hard to get more local and sustainably sourced than that for me.
> 
> I'm surprised that soap in NZ isn't made with animal fats....aren't pretty much *all* commercial soaps made with tallow? I've never been there, but I figured you'd have Dove and Ivory, perhaps even Irish Spring? ;-)


Its more the smell that would be the issue for me.

As for commercial soap, Dove is the only American soap we can get here - most of our commercial soaps are made with palm oil.  

Interestingly I priced up lard from the supermarket and it's not that cheap - dearer than olive oil.


----------



## penelopejane (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Its more the smell that would be the issue for me.
> 
> As for commercial soap, Dove is the only American soap we can get here - most of our commercial soaps are made with palm oil.
> 
> Interestingly I priced up lard from the supermarket and it's not that cheap - dearer than olive oil.



A lot of commercial soap has sodium tallowate = tallow (beef fat). Including NZ protex soap, Palmolive Cashmere Bouquet etc.


----------



## Dean (Jan 19, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Its more the smell that would be the issue for me.
> 
> As for commercial soap, Dove is the only American soap we can get here - most of our commercial soaps are made with palm oil.
> 
> Interestingly I priced up lard from the supermarket and it's not that cheap - dearer than olive oil.



Slightly OT...Im traveling so I’ve been using a well known commercial bar at my hosts’ to wash my hands.  I havnt used commercial since I started soaping.  It was woefully inferior to my SW bars which lathered better and were less drying.


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## Saponificarian (Jan 20, 2019)

Chicken fat is slow to trace and so is goose/Duck fat and no ‘ickyness’. Makes great soaps too. Now, back to soy wax


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 20, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> A lot of commercial soap has sodium tallowate = tallow (beef fat). Including NZ protex soap, Palmolive Cashmere Bouquet etc.


I must pick them up and have a look at them next time I'm in the soap aisle PJ - to be honest I haven't bought any from the supermarket for years.  I either buy at markets ( all plant oils) or from Lush.


----------



## penelopejane (Jan 20, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I must pick them up and have a look at them next time I'm in the soap aisle PJ - to be honest I haven't bought any from the supermarket for years.  I either buy at markets ( all plant oils) or from Lush.


Most of the big name brands have a “naturals” product now too but they are generally palm oil and TD is just about always there as well.


----------



## Richard Perrine (Jan 20, 2019)

I have been using soy wax (hydrogenated soy) and it is great, BUT GMO! For my friends and family who don't care about GMO, I use it, otherwise, no. I will never use animal products in my food as most of my friends and family are vegetarians and vegans for both health and ethical reasons (objection to use AND consumption of animals). I know vegetarians who don't mind using tallow-ed soap as they simply rationalized that they are not consuming it, so..... but, the ones who have ethical misgivings, animal products is a no-no.


----------



## Complexions (Jan 20, 2019)

I use the 100% soy wax in my soaps, both HP and CP.  I happen to very much like it!  My usual rate is 25%


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 20, 2019)

Excellent. Now I see we have a few bods here that use SW, we can start some discussion 

My first question is - those who use it for CP, what temperature do you soap at?


----------



## KimT2au (Jan 20, 2019)

Chris_S said:


> Mislabelled and of course because it is not an approved meat also not vet checked or regulated in any kind of way. How do we know that horse wasnt coughing and spluttering till its dying breathe.
> 
> Where abouts in england did you live?



Perhaps I should clarify, I meant that I can see no difference as long as the animals have all been slaughtered in a registered slaughter house and undergone whatever checks / treatments meat normally goes through, not just killed in someone's back yard and thrown in with the rest of the meat.

Until the age of 8 I lived in Hainault, Essex and then my parents moved to Australia.  I lived in Australia until I was 21 and then went on a 7 month holiday back to the UK and returned to Australia 11 years later    While I lived in England as an adult I was in Romford, Essex.  I have been back in Australia since 1996 and can't imagine ever moving back to the UK.



KiwiMoose said:


> @KimT2au my son was very similar.  At 4 months I knew something was wrong (solely breast-fed) and i asked our GP - is it something I'M eating?  She said no, don't be silly, and gave me some hydrocortisone cream for my little baby's skin. Not bloody likely!  So I ended up going to a naturopath who told me to stop eating eggs, milk, nuts etc and my son's skin (and smelly poo) cleared up overnight!  He also was struggling to put on weight but it was his weepy wet eczema that was the biggest tell-tale sign that something wasn't right.



You would not believe how often I have heard stories like yours.  It breaks my heart when you hear stories of how babies have struggled with allergies and eczema.  Does your son still have allergies, @KiwiMoose , or has he outgrown them?



KiwiMoose said:


> I'm bringing it back to soy now @Dean, because from what i have read, and what @Alfa_Lazcares has said about piggy smell, I ain't going there.



I find I don't much like the smell while the lard is in liquid form but it does depend on the % of lard the recipe has.  For example, I did a recipe months ago that was 50% and I felt downright ill while I was working with the batter, but yesterday I was using a recipe that was only about 20% lard and did not even notice the smell at all.  Once the batter has cooled I don't notice any smell at all.  The funny thing is that I render my own tallow and lard and have no trouble working with the hot fat; I think it could be the smell of it mixed with the lye perhaps.  Either way, once the soap is set up I have not noticed any piggy smell.




Complexions said:


> I use the 100% soy wax in my soaps, both HP and CP.  I happen to very much like it!  My usual rate is 25%



What was that soap like, @Complexions ?



KiwiMoose said:


> Excellent. Now I see we have a few bods here that use SW, we can start some discussion
> 
> My first question is - those who use it for CP, what temperature do you soap at?



Sorry about temporarily hijacking your thread, @KiwiMoose , I have told myself off, smacked my own bottom and thoroughly enjoyed it


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 20, 2019)

@KimT2au I used to go to weight watchers in Romford. I lived in Ilford.
My son is still allergic to eggs and nuts. He can now tolerate dairy but does not have a taste for it so he drinks SOY milk.


----------



## Richard Perrine (Jan 20, 2019)

I soap at whatever temp the soy melts. I almost entirely do not give track of temperatures as they have been irrelevant in my experience. Of course, I don’t unnecessarily overheat my oils. One thing I have found is waiting for oils to cool too much causes the mixture to trace too quickly when adding certain EOs. My mixtures are always greater than 120 degrees.


----------



## Dean (Jan 21, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Excellent. Now I see we have a few bods here that use SW, we can start some discussion
> 
> My first question is - those who use it for CP, what temperature do you soap at?



A lil above room temp I guess.  I melt the hard oils add liquid oils and voila!

As u kno I don’t do fancies like like u.  I blieve u said u have fast trace issues somewhere which is y u r asking?  Trace is norm for me with high SW but I don’t partake in FO.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 21, 2019)

Thanks @Richard Perrine and @Dean .  I don't take my temps either so I don't really know what temperature it is.  I can hazard a guess about 35 degrees - 40 degrees at most. (95 - 105f).  I am a little torn between the 'soap cool' advice to keep the soap batter workable to do designs, and the need to keep the soy wax warm in order to stop if from setting up.  What are your thoughts on this?


----------



## Richard Perrine (Jan 21, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Thanks @Richard Perrine and @Dean .  I don't take my temps either so I don't really know what temperature it is.  I can hazard a guess about 35 degrees - 40 degrees at most. (95 - 105f).  I am a little torn between the 'soap cool' advice to keep the soap batter workable to do designs, and the need to keep the soy wax warm in order to stop if from setting up.  What are your thoughts on this?



I don’t do many colorful swirling, etc., so I keep the temps up to prevent premature setting as I add my EOs. I pour at temps above 120 all the time and have had no problems.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 21, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> A lot of commercial soap has sodium tallowate = tallow (beef fat). Including NZ protex soap, Palmolive Cashmere Bouquet etc.


So tonight I looked in the supermarket (Countdown, which is also in Australia) at all the soaps and NONE of them had sodium tallowate in them,  but all of them had Palm in them.  Including Dove.  What was noticeable was the very small range available.  There were twice as many liquid soaps as there were bar soaps. We pretty much had truckloads of Palmolive, truckloads of Lux, a bit of protex,Dove and Pears and a couple of 'eco friendly' ones and that was it!


----------



## SaltedFig (Jan 21, 2019)

Palmolive, LUX, Dove, Protex are all owned by one company. Pears is majority owned by the same company. Not much variety in the ingredients, because there's NO variety in the suppliers.

Except for one, the Imperial Leather is from the makers of Fudge colours 

(Same supermarket logo, different company name - clever logo design I reckon, to be able to cover both).


----------



## KimT2au (Jan 21, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> @KimT2au I used to go to weight watchers in Romford. I lived in Ilford.
> My son is still allergic to eggs and nuts. He can now tolerate dairy but does not have a taste for it so he drinks SOY milk.


Would you believe that I lot weight with WW in Romford and then went on to be a WW leader after that.  I had 3 groups but my biggest one was in Upminster.


----------



## Dean (Jan 21, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> So tonight I looked in the supermarket (Countdown, which is also in Australia) at all the soaps and NONE of them had sodium tallowate in them,  but all of them had Palm in them.  Including Dove.  What was noticeable was the very small range available.  There were twice as many liquid soaps as there were bar soaps. We pretty much had truckloads of Palmolive, truckloads of Lux, a bit of protex,Dove and Pears and a couple of 'eco friendly' ones and that was it!
> View attachment 35305



My ridiculous dream is to create a vegan palm-free soap with mass appeal that could be sold in health food stores which have gone from hippy to corporate here.  I’ve looked at the brands at health food stores but they had animal ingredients, palm or weird ingredients or scents.  The major “natural” brand here Dr. Bronner which is high in CO (drying) and palm.  I used it b4 making my own.  The challenge would be launching, marketing, scaling up for store sales and then handing it over to manufacturer for mass production.  Bronner is near where I live.  I asked for a tour but they said they didn’t want no lookyloos snooping around their soap.

I couldn’t do craft fairs tho...sitting around all day watching STRANGERS touch my beloved babies with their filthy paws.  I’d be shooing and be slapping hands all day.  Anyway, I went to a craft fair in the last yr.  There were SO many soap vendors that I quit counting.


----------



## lsg (Jan 21, 2019)

I think I will give soy wax a try.  Will let you know how I like the results.


----------



## Chris_S (Jan 21, 2019)

Dean said:


> My ridiculous dream is to create a vegan palm-free soap with mass appeal that could be sold in health food stores which have gone from hippy to corporate here.  I’ve looked at the brands at health food stores but they had animal ingredients, palm or weird ingredients or scents.  The major “natural” brand here Dr. Bronner which is high in CO (drying) and palm.  I used it b4 making my own.  The challenge would be launching, marketing, scaling up for store sales and then handing it over to manufacturer for mass production.  Bronner is near where I live.  I asked for a tour but they said they didn’t want no lookyloos snooping around their soap.
> 
> I couldn’t do craft fairs tho...sitting around all day watching STRANGERS touch my beloved babies with their filthy paws.  I’d be shooing and be slapping hands all day.  Anyway, I went to a craft fair in the last yr.  There were SO many soap vendors that I quit counting.



Not really tottally relivant because it doesnt involve soy wax being used but i have found a recipe that i tried last night unfortuatly 3/4 of that ended up on my soaping room floor so take 2 is coming tonight. Its lard/tallow free and also has no palm products in there iv had to adapt the recipe slightly to suit what oils i have but the cb % isnt even that high so if you would like some feedback ill tag you when its made and then when its cured so you might be able to maybe trying that?  ps wont be offended if your not interested though


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 21, 2019)

KimT2au said:


> Would you believe that I lot weight with WW in Romford and then went on to be a WW leader after that.  I had 3 groups but my biggest one was in Upminster.


 small world!  Now we make soap we don't need to eat, lol.



lsg said:


> I think I will give soy wax a try.  Will let you know how I like the results.


Feel free to tweak my recipe back there ^ and let me know how your soap works out.  I'm always interested in new recipes to try.  I'm still honing mine to get it exactly how I want it.


----------



## lenarenee (Jan 21, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I know I said I didn't want to enter into any debates, BUT....
> 
> I started to ponder the many comments and outright negativity towards SW by many on this site.  It's interesting how we don't have that so much in New Zealand, but we do get it against Palm oil.  I think it has all comes down to propaganda, for both types of oil.
> 
> ...




I hope you didn't feel the need to "debate" because of my comment.  I'm open to trying soy wax in my soap if it's solvent free and preferably organic.  However, I won't eat soy due to its hormonal effects, plus the fact that much of it is incredibly gmo.  I played in soy bean fields as a kid - picked a few pods and chewed the beans.  Today's soy beans look NOTHING  like they used - I don't even recognize them as soy beans.

As for your impression that soy is now a big no-no in the US - I don't see it. It's still very much pushed as a health food, vegetarian and vegan protein source, its oil good to cook with, soy wax candles are still king.   Soy is touted as sustainable - and that it's good to support your local American farmer.

The little negative I see comes from the much smaller populations like the super health conscious that are starting to think soy's phytoestrogens are not the good kind.

Yeah, a vegan palm free soap is expensive to make if you use the typical high olive oil and butter recipe.  I've run the numbers - OUCH (and I'm in the US).  I've also used some of those recipes, and while I'm always fascinated by and appreciate  any recipe - I don't like  how those bars perform after repeated us and won't make them myself.


----------



## Dean (Jan 21, 2019)

lsg said:


> I think I will give soy wax a try.  Will let you know how I like the results.



Once u go wax u wont go back.


----------



## Meena (Feb 2, 2019)

Dean said:


> I’ve noticed recently the dairy industry targeting  plant based alternatives with neg mrktg campains.  However I never connected neg mrktg to this new consumer belief that soy is BAD.  But it does explain the “no soy” labels on products.


Hi Dean -  No, that does not explain the 'no soy' on labels.  Soy is actually really bad for you unless it's fermented.  Soy is an endocrine disruptor and worse, and 90+% is GMO which introduces even more health risks and damage. In soap, i guess it would be okay since not ingesting it, but I go wayyyyyy out of my way to ensure that not one red cent of mine goes toward anything made or owned by Monsanto, Bayer, and all those other ex-military, now-supposed-food-producing monsters!
More than you ever wanted to know about (ingesting) soy here ==> https://www.google.com/search?q=dr+...rome..69i57.4613j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
selected examples:
*Antinutrients* are elements and compounds in soy foods such as lectins, saponins, soyatoxin, phytates (which prevent the absorption of certain minerals), oxalates, protease inhibitors, estrogens (which can block the hormone estrogen and disrupt endocrine function) and goitrogens (interfering with your thyroid function) as well as a blood clot-inhibiting substance called hemagglutinin. Other detriments are numerous.
. . .
Numerous Asian populations, typically Japanese, who are arguably healthier than those eating a Western diet, have traditionally eaten fermented soy, such as miso, natto and tempeh, which helps to deactivate some of the antinutrients soy contains
. . .
In a seemingly contradictive result of eating bean curd, (the article) adds results of research (12) done on ancient Buddhist monks who were both vegan and celibate who happily reported that “eating a lot of soy dampened their libido and reproductive capacity.”(13) In addition:

_“Food manufacturers create modern tofu (using a similar process). However, the traditional coagulants were typically safer. For example, clean, fresh seawater makes an excellent coagulant to transform soy milk into tofu. *Compare this to the refined salts or GMO-derived citric acid used today.*”(14)_

END RANT


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 2, 2019)

So only three people on here to talk about the use of soy-wax with then?


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## MarnieSoapien (Feb 2, 2019)

Sorry, I'm late to the party. I haven't used soy wax yet. I was going to order some, but found non-GMO, cosmetic grade, rapeseed wax from an EU distributor as an alternative to soy wax. I have a recipe that I want to try out. I kinda feel like I'm in uncharted territory here, since I've looked on the forum and haven't seen anyone using rapeseed wax for soaping. I don't want to use palm oil or tallow (here in the EU, if you sell your products they need to have a chemical analysis done and I don't know how that would work with a tallow. I think I would have to have each batch of soap tested every time I used a new batch of tallow. And the chemical analysis costs around $500 for each test.) I'll let you know if 5 weeks how it turns out.


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 2, 2019)

MarnieSoapien said:


> Sorry, I'm late to the party. I haven't used soy wax yet. I was going to order some, but found non-GMO, cosmetic grade, rapeseed wax from an EU distributor as an alternative to soy wax. I have a recipe that I want to try out. I kinda feel like I'm in uncharted territory here, since I've looked on the forum and haven't seen anyone using rapeseed wax for soaping. I don't want to use palm oil or tallow (here in the EU, if you sell your products they need to have a chemical analysis done and I don't know how that would work with a tallow. I think I would have to have each batch of soap tested every time I used a new batch of tallow. And the chemical analysis costs around $500 for each test.) I'll let you know if 5 weeks how it turns out.


That sounds interesting.  Let us know how it goes


----------



## msunnerstood (Feb 2, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> You mean soy wax?


Yes soy wax


----------



## Meena (Feb 2, 2019)

Dean said:


> My ridiculous dream is to create a vegan palm-free soap with mass appeal that could be sold in health food stores which have gone from hippy to corporate here.  I’ve looked at the brands at health food stores but they had animal ingredients, palm or weird ingredients or scents.  The major “natural” brand here Dr. Bronner which is high in CO (drying) and palm.  I used it b4 making my own.  The challenge would be launching, marketing, scaling up for store sales and then handing it over to manufacturer for mass production.



Tsk, Dean - there are no ridiculous dreams.  I think you have a wonderful dream and purpose, and I wish you great success in developing your vegan soaps.  <3


----------



## Hendejm (Feb 2, 2019)

I think the issue with soy in the United States is it’s possible correlation to cancers and the production of estrogen in pre and post menapausal women. Doctors will tell women of a certain age to avoids soy based foods. This isn’t in reference to topical products but rather ingested products. If you care to read it there is a study by Harvard University that puts it in laymen’s terms...
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/soy/
Of course there is the whole Monsanto/roundup/gmo debate as well but that is a different subject that speaks to morality/greater good/etc


----------



## KiwiMoose (Feb 2, 2019)

Again - it depends on what you read and how much credence you give to your source.  There are 'fors and againsts' for any argument.  The whole oestrogen thing has apparently been taken out of context, as it's not the same type of oestrogen as produced by humans.  And anyway - we are not eating the stuff when in soap.
But once again, instead of trying to engage in discussion about the USE of the product in soap, this thread has now turned into a debate about whether to not we SHOULD use soy.
Just what I requested in the OP that it didn't want!


----------



## Hendejm (Feb 2, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Again - it depends on what you read and how much credence you give to your source.  There are 'fors and againsts' for any argument.  The whole oestrogen thing has apparently been taken out of context, as it's not the same type of oestrogen as produced by humans.  And anyway - we are not eating the stuff when in soap.
> But once again, instead of trying to engage in discussion about the USE of the product in soap, this thread has now turned into a debate about whether to not we SHOULD use soy.
> Just what I requested in the OP that it didn't want!


Sorry!  I was just giving context to why it is an issue in the United States.... I’m for the use of soy!  Use whatever works I say.


----------



## Chris_S (Feb 2, 2019)

Hendejm said:


> Sorry!  I was just giving context to why it is an issue in the United States.... I’m for the use of soy!  Use whatever works I say.



Thats in now shes no longer kiwi moose shes just good old angry moose. And you know meese have horns right? 

Kiwi moose im not suggesting you are old. And yes i know meese isnt the right word i just found it amusing


----------



## aihrat (Feb 2, 2019)

I've successfully used soy wax (supplier labeled as "soft soy wax") at 10% for a swirly recipe with 25% shea butter and it behaved surprisingly well even under a steep water discount, though the rest was slow-moving oils. Batter remained a fluid, pourable consistency for more than an hour. Really like the hardness and longevity it adds to soaps with a high proportion of sweet almond oil which bubbles well but dissolves quickly.

Soy wax swirl recipe:

Almond Oil, sweet 25%
Shea Butter 25%
Olive Oil 25%
Coconut Oil, 76 deg 10%
Soybean, fully hydrogenated (soy wax) 10%
Castor Oil 5%

it has good stats on soapcalc


----------



## KiwiMoose (Feb 2, 2019)

I’m not really angry moose


----------



## Meena (Feb 2, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I’m not really angry moose



Apologies for the slight hijack of your thread, Grere.  I can't resist any opportunity to inform people and point them to resources on a huge range of health topics (medicine is my main hobby, has been for 41 years). 
I'm one of "_the much smaller populations like the super health conscious_" that @lenarenee mentioned. 

I do understand that it's not always welcomed nor appreciated, but it's my personal _moral imperative_...  so... a bit of a quandary, there.  Again, I apologize.


----------



## Richard Perrine (Feb 2, 2019)

Meena said:


> Apologies for the slight hijack of your thread, Grere.  I can't resist any opportunity to inform people and point them to resources on a huge range of health topics (medicine is my main hobby, has been for 41 years).
> I'm one of "_the much smaller populations like the super health conscious_" that @lenarenee mentioned.
> 
> I do understand that it's not always welcomed nor appreciated, but it's my personal _moral imperative_...  so... a bit of a quandary, there.  Again, I apologize.



Meena. More and more people are beginning to question what the food industry frequently and routinely do not want the general populace to be aware of. No way you’re going to get anyone to certify non-gmo soy wax with a straight face. A hormone, regardless of where it originates is a biochemical compound that likely does have some effect. How much or little is not known. That is the problem. I have a molecular bio background, pathogenic and cancer research experience and worked for the USDA. I understand the science and I can tell you that the industry is not fully aware of the consequences of genetically modified foods and their effects on humans.

All to say, soy wax rocks in soap! Don’t ingest, please.[emoji12]


----------



## Dean (Feb 2, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I’m not really angry moose



Really?


----------



## Meena (Feb 3, 2019)

Richard Perrine said:


> Meena. More and more people are beginning to question what the food industry frequently and routinely do not want the general populace to be aware of. No way you’re going to get anyone to certify non-gmo soy wax with a straight face. A hormone, regardless of where it originates is a biochemical compound that likely does have some effect. How much or little is not known. That is the problem. I have a molecular bio background, pathogenic and cancer research experience and worked for the USDA. I understand the science and I can tell you that the industry is not fully aware of the consequences of genetically modified foods and their effects on humans.
> 
> [emoji12]



Absolutely right -- no, they do not understand the consequences.  Monsanto was not supposed to conduct open-field trials, but did so anyway.  There is NO WAY to recall this genetic material, now that it has been released into the environment.  It almost ruined Mexico, which is the country housing the largest genetic pool of corn varieties which exist.  They have been desperately struggling to mitigate the damages to this heritage.

Just wait till we see what happens when Roundup has Killed all the Soil Microbes!!!  Have you seen the numbers on total gallons or tons  (I'll have to look up that # when I'm not on my phone)  of Glyphosate that are being  sprayed on this country annually?  It's in the hundreds of millions, and that's enough money to pay for a lot of goons and advertising.

I see people in progressive Denver spraying that war chemical turned agricultural poison around their homes and businesses!  This stuff is just Business as Usual to people!!  (Sorry for all the !!!)

Thank you so much for your words. They mean a lot coming from a scientist.



Dean said:


> Really?
> View attachment 35780



      where in the heck did you find that video!?!??!?!!   too funny


----------



## Susie (Feb 28, 2019)

I am totally staying out of all debate about use of palm and/or soy in foods.

Are we talking about the soy wax used to make candles, though?  I am being forced to consider making a vegetarian/vegan soap by a customer.  I warned her that it might be months before I get a recipe I like developed.  Does anyone have suggestions that use only 4-5 oils?


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## Dean (Feb 28, 2019)

Here u go @Susie 

Candle wax can have additives.  U want 100% hydrogenated soy bean oil (“415”).


----------



## KiwiMoose (Feb 28, 2019)

deleted.
Nah, just kidding...
Try something like this @Susie:
Soy Wax (415) 20%
CO 20%
Olive oil 25%
Rice Bran Oil 15%
Add a bit of Shea and Castor to make up the rest.


----------



## Dawni (Feb 28, 2019)

Dean said:


> Here u go @Susie
> 
> Candle wax can have additives.  U want 100% hydrogenated soy bean oil (“415”).


I just checked with one supplier and the lady said their soy wax is 444. I'm off to check now what that means and if anyone else has a different soy wax.


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## Dean (Feb 28, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I just checked with one supplier and the lady said their soy wax is 444. I'm off to check now what that means and if anyone elsr has a different soy wax.



"Our *444 soy wax* is different from the *415 soy wax* because it does have a *soy* based additive added to it, but yet it is still a natural *wax*. ... Our *444 wax* can be blended with microcrystalline, beeswax, and paraffin *waxes*, has the same melting point as the *415*, and a pour temperature of 135 degrees Fahrenheit"


----------



## Dawni (Feb 28, 2019)

Lol yes, just got back from Google and read the same thing. I wonder what is that "soy based additive" and what would it possibly do to soap, and will both even have the same SAP value?

Anyway, I have a couple of other places to try. Let's see..


----------



## Richard Perrine (Feb 28, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I just checked with one supplier and the lady said their soy wax is 444. I'm off to check now what that means and if anyone else has a different soy wax.



I use Natural Soy 125 (415) wax. I have been told is is ONLY soy with no preservatives. It has worked really well for me.


----------



## psfred (Mar 2, 2019)

I have used soy wax (the 415, 87% stearic acid) in a couple soaps to boost up the stearic acid content, and in shaving soap.  It works nicely for those purposes.

The 415 version is fully hydrogenated, so it only contains stearic and palmitic acid and glyerol.  It's like any other "oil", although it has a fairly high melting point so you have to soap pretty warm.  Very handy for balancing a recipe toward the saturated side  of the fatty acid profile.

It saponifies rather slowly for me, but I was using it in a soy oil/canola oil blend, and those are fairly slow as well.

Nothing magic about it, it's just a source of stearic acid as far as I'm concerned, and works like any other high stearic acid oil in soap. 

There are other versions that are not fully hydrogenated, if you use those you will need to find out what the fatty acid profile is.  SoapCalc lists at least one other hydrogenated soy oil, don't remember off hand what it's like.

Be sure you do not have "soy wax" with added petroleum waxes used to make candles!  There are blends out there that make lovely candles, and terrible soap with solid paraffin wax distributed through the soap....

For that vegetarian soap, try 20% soy wax 415, 40% OO or HO safflower oil, and 40% whatever other plant oils you like.  It will be soft until it's fully cured, but is very nice soap.  You will need to add an anti-oxidant though.

Or 100% HO safflower oil makes a very nice, bright white soap too.  Similar to Castile.


----------



## Dawni (Mar 5, 2019)

Does this piece of paper indicate anything of importance? 

One supplier I asked keeps saying they have 100% pure soy wax, but can't tell me if it's the 415 kind, but sent me this lol


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## KiwiMoose (Mar 5, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Does this piece of paper indicate anything of importance?
> 
> One supplier I asked keeps saying they have 100% pure soy wax, but can't tell me if it's the 415 kind, but sent me this lol
> View attachment 37199


That tells me a whole bunch of zilch!  I don't think it's 415 because 415 has a lower melting point than that.


----------



## Dawni (Mar 5, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> That tells me a whole bunch of zilch!  I don't think it's 415 because 415 has a lower melting point than that.


Good to know. I Googled and found info but couldn't get the Fahrenheits and Celsius to convert themselves at 2 in the morning lol

Alrighty then.. On to the next supplier. Thanks love.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 5, 2019)

Don't know if this link might help - there's a couple of PDFs there with more info that you could use to compare products:https://www.candlescience.com/wax/golden-brands-415-soy-wax


----------



## Dawni (Mar 5, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Don't know if this link might help - there's a couple of PDFs there with more info that you could use to compare products:https://www.candlescience.com/wax/golden-brands-415-soy-wax


Yes, I downloaded those and several others but without anything from these suppliers to compare numbers with, there's not much to go on from. I still have a couple to check, hopefully someone turns up something.


----------



## earlene (Mar 6, 2019)

I use Google to determine conversions for Celsius to Fahrenheit when I need to know.  Just type 'Celsius to Fahrenheit' into the search bar and it comes right up.

Yes the 415 soy wax melting point is 120-125° F, and that one is 136 - 140° F, which makes me wonder if it's a blend of another wax.  Looking at CandleScience's site, none of the soy waxes fall into that range for melting point.  Maybe for the pouring temp (for candle pouring), but not for melting point.

Here is  a link that tells you about which ones have additives and their melting points:

https://www.candlescience.com/learning/wax-guide

Are you able to order from Amazon?  Here is what I buy from Amazon:  

https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Brand...?srs=4739059011&ie=UTF8&qid=1551918655&sr=8-1


----------



## Dawni (Mar 7, 2019)

Lol yes but my brain wasn't functioning earlier at past 3am but I did do the conversion and the numbers indeed do not match.

Unfortunately, very few suppliers deliver to here if you buy from Amazon and most of the time shipping fees aren't worth it. Thank you though @earlene


----------



## Dawni (Mar 12, 2019)

Does anyone here actually know what the "soy based additive" is in the 444 wax? Seems like no one (so far) carries the 415 and I've asked 5 suppliers. Waiting to hear from 3 more but I'm not holding my breath. 

Most have no idea what they have pfft, but the lady I order my EOs from right away said hers is 444. It has the same melting point as the 415 apparently but as she doesn't soap, has never tried her soy wax in anything other than candles. None of her customers have asked her what I did so she assumes either it just doesn't work or there's not enough info to work with. I'm betting the second coz I found a couple of sites (US based companies) that list soap under uses but don't give info on how. 

Frustrating sometimes when you can't find something lol first it was lard, now this. Sustainable palm oil is still elusive but I'm not looking too hard.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 12, 2019)

Just buy a little bit and try it Dawni - keep us posted. Unless your fear is that it's something chemically/bad?


----------



## Dawni (Mar 12, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Just buy a little bit and try it Dawni - keep us posted. Unless your fear is that it's something chemically/bad?


No, not that. I'd just hate to waste all the materials if it's something that won't make soap? Haha although I guess since it's also soy based it should be ok? 

But yes, I guess the only thing left to do is try. I'll just plug it in the calc and hope for the best? Lol

Apparently the additive is only 2% so hopefully I don't have to adjust superfat or increase lye or whatever..


----------



## Dean (Mar 12, 2019)

Dawni said:


> No, not that. I'd just hate to waste all the materials if it's something that won't make soap? Haha although I guess since it's also soy based it should be ok?
> 
> But yes, I guess the only thing left to do is try. I'll just plug it in the calc and hope for the best? Lol
> 
> Apparently the additive is only 2% so hopefully I don't have to adjust superfat or increase lye or whatever..



Do you have access to refined cocoa butter?  Is it cheap in ur country?


----------



## Dawni (Mar 12, 2019)

Dean said:


> Do you have access to refined cocoa butter?  Is it cheap in ur country?


Yes I do, but currently use unrefined. Used more of it before I found lard and yes, it is slightly pricier than soy wax per kg. I also use Shea and it's even pricier.

I like that the butters add to hardness and also conditioning so I'm not looking at any other wax without any other benefits, other than soy, because the others cost as much as the butters.


----------



## Richard Perrine (Mar 12, 2019)

Dawni. Can you order from Amazon? I use 415 and it's great, but soy is typically not a sustainable crop nor npn-gmo. Does that matter? I thought there was discussion on this. Anyhoo, can you order from Amazon?


----------



## Dawni (Mar 12, 2019)

Richard Perrine said:


> Dawni. Can you order from Amazon? I use 415 and it's great, but soy is typically not a sustainable crop nor npn-gmo. Does that matter? I thought there was discussion on this. Anyhoo, can you order from Amazon?


This


Dawni said:


> Unfortunately, very few suppliers deliver to here if you buy from Amazon and most of the time shipping fees aren't worth it.


But I have no problems with GMOs. There's no way around them in my opinion. Same as palm and greenhouse gas from animals. Best thing is not to stop using them but to push for better, more sustainable ways to produce them. But that's another discussion hehehe


----------



## SaltedFig (Mar 12, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Does this piece of paper indicate anything of importance?
> 
> One supplier I asked keeps saying they have 100% pure soy wax, but can't tell me if it's the 415 kind, but sent me this lol
> View attachment 37199


A bit late to the party, but I recognised the PW422 in the code (from years ago, weird) ... anyway, I think it is a parrafin wax blend, like this one: https://www.kerax.com/product/kerawax-422-5660/ (which is coded KW422, with the KW being the brand, instead of parrafin wax).


----------



## Dawni (Mar 12, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> A bit late to the party, but I recognised the PW422 in the code (from years ago, weird) ... anyway, I think it is a parrafin wax blend, like this one: https://www.kerax.com/product/kerawax-422-5660/ (which is coded KW422, with the KW being the brand, instead of parrafin wax).


Eh? So much for 100% soy lols these suppliers have no idea what they're selling! Ugh..

I think, just for testing, I'll stick to the one where the lady is sure she has the 444 one. If anything, at least the additive is still soy based. Thanks SaltedFig


----------



## Dean (Mar 12, 2019)

This one has the same melting point as 415.  This one is being sold for skin care.  Maybe contact the suppliers to ensure they are pure.


----------



## Dawni (Mar 12, 2019)

Dean said:


> This one has the same melting point as 415.  This one is being sold for skin care.  Maybe contact the suppliers to ensure they are pure.


First one costs almost as much as my 1kg cocoa and shea combined so I didn't ask. Also, ships from China, and while I've tried toys and clothes from those vendors I'm not sure I wanna risk raw materials.

I'm still waiting for a response from the second one. They're one of those I've asked already, but it's been several days....


----------



## KiwiSoap (Mar 14, 2019)

I am happy to report that this weekend I graduate not just past mono-oil soap making, but right up to Soy Boy Wax User level! I have my soy wax GW415, I have the recipe of the wonderful Princess Poly-Oil herself (thanks @KiwiMoose!), and I have enthusiasm. It will be white, it will be unscented, but by golly it will be beautiful the best I've made so far. 

Chalk up another soy wax user up for the team! Thanks for sharing your ideas, recipes and support here, I'll report back when I can.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 14, 2019)

YAY!  I can't wait to see your results fellow kiwi!


----------



## Dean (Mar 14, 2019)

KiwiSoap said:


> I am happy to report that this weekend I graduate not just past mono-oil soap making, but right up to Soy Boy Wax User level! I have my soy wax GW415, I have the recipe of the wonderful Princess Poly-Oil herself (thanks @KiwiMoose!), and I have enthusiasm. It will be white, it will be unscented, but by golly it will be beautiful the best I've made so far.
> 
> Chalk up another soy wax user up for the team! Thanks for sharing your ideas, recipes and support here, I'll report back when I can.



Welcome to the Soy Wax Club!  Glad to see the Kiwi kontingent is growing.


----------



## earlene (Mar 14, 2019)

Dawni, if I didn't have access to the 415 soy wax, I would definitely try the 444 soy wax you found in a small test batch to evaluate it in comparison to the soaps I had already made.  Since you don't have any 415 to compare it to, it makes it kind of a moot point. 

But you know, since you are asking these vendors about the 415 soy wax, perhaps eventually they will start carrying it as they are now seeing a market for it.  If it were me, I'd keep hounding them for answers in hopes that they would see the niche that could be filled if they would only start carrying it.  It doesn't always work, but sometimes a vendor will start to provide products the consumers actually want.


----------



## Dawni (Mar 14, 2019)

earlene said:


> Dawni, if I didn't have access to the 415 soy wax, I would definitely try the 444 soy wax you found in a small test batch to evaluate it in comparison to the soaps I had already made.  Since you don't have any 415 to compare it to, it makes it kind of a moot point.
> 
> But you know, since you are asking these vendors about the 415 soy wax, perhaps eventually they will start carrying it as they are now seeing a market for it.  If it were me, I'd keep hounding them for answers in hopes that they would see the niche that could be filled if they would only start carrying it.  It doesn't always work, but sometimes a vendor will start to provide products the consumers actually want.


I have a feeling they don't carry it exactly because there wasn't a niche for it. I'm betting they looked for, and found, a "better" wax for candles and got the 444 and no one was educated enough to tell them that they should have more options. Dunno about the candle makers we have here, if any of them is very particular about their waxes. Maybe I should ask them where they get theirs from and maybe someone does use 415.

I also decided to see if I could find any handmade soap that listed soy wax as an ingredient and so far found none, but I have not made a very thorough search. Maybe I'll start a trend lol and then eventually the suppliers can catch on. 

I am now asking who is coming in from somewhere else, if they can maybe carry for me a small amount of the 415 so I can make a comparison, like you said. I will still try the 444 just to see if it makes soap lol before someone can get the 415 for me.


----------



## Steve85569 (Mar 14, 2019)

I have a batch made with 444 in the mold just for testing ( made on pi day). I'll compare it to the batch made with 415 on the 5th.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 14, 2019)

What's pi day?


----------



## dibbles (Mar 15, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> What's pi day?


March 14th - 3.14


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 15, 2019)

dibbles said:


> March 14th - 3.14


That's coz you crazy cats put your month and day round the wrong way.  It should be 14/3


----------



## Dawni (Mar 15, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> That's coz you crazy cats put your month and day round the wrong way.  It should be 14/3


Lol I just remembered how confusing it was. As a child in Saudi Arabia we wrote 14.3 then moving back home it was 3.14 then when I worked in the UAE it was again 14.3. Now I'm back home again...


----------



## SoapySuds (Mar 15, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> The bars are lovely to use. You can even leave them soaking in their own water and they retain firmness without turning to sludge. Here's some pics:
> View attachment 35191
> View attachment 35192
> View attachment 35193
> View attachment 35194



Your soaps are lovely to look upon.

*sigh*

I just want to grab one and smell it.


----------



## Steve85569 (Mar 15, 2019)

Bars with 444 cut this morning ( at 18 hours) and we have suds! The soap was too young to do anything with but my gloves lathered when I washed them off.

The experiment now goes into the curing process....


----------



## Dawni (Mar 15, 2019)

Steve85569 said:


> Bars with 444 cut this morning ( at 18 hours) and we have suds! The soap was too young to do anything with but my gloves lathered when I washed them off.
> 
> The experiment now goes into the curing process....


I think I'm gonna go order the 444 from that one single reputable supplier.. Looking forward to your next update


----------



## Steve85569 (Mar 15, 2019)

Dawni,
If you really want some 415 just pm me your mailing addy and I'll check on the cost of sending you a couple of pounds ( kilo) or so.


----------



## Dawni (Mar 15, 2019)

Steve85569 said:


> Dawni,
> If you really want some 415 just pm me your mailing addy and I'll check on the cost of sending you a couple of pounds ( kilo) or so.


Thank you for the sweet offer but I'm quite on the other side of the globe and I'm pretty sure it's way more than any amount I'm comfortable with someone spending for me.

I seem to have forgotten my English there lol but seriously, I've seen shipping prices on etsy and I think since you got suds with the 444 I can try it.

Thank you though, really


----------



## Atihcnoc (Mar 21, 2019)

Meena said:


> It almost ruined Mexico, which is the country housing the largest genetic pool of corn varieties which exist.


 Please, don't mention something you are not completelly sure, to México get ruined it needs a lot more than a genetic pool of corn to say something, as México is one of the most richest and blessed countries with a lot of natural resources. I know talking about GM food, some people think have the last word and with all the respect it's not true. In todays world everything has been modificated one way or another and I'm sure most of the time it is for a good reason. I'm in favor of the GM food and not being a scientist or specialist in the field ( I have a Degree in Graphic Design and another one in Business Administration) I prefer not to comment on that subject but in what I have been interested for the past 10 years, which is to make soap.

*Love to make soap*, one of my favorite ingredient is lard, once I make a 100% lard soap because I heard is the best for the skin and the white clothes, so I want to see by myself if it was true, I don't know about the clothes as I never used the soap for that, but for the skin it is wonderful, and never have the bad smell some are talking about, since I try that soap I love lard and after that, most of my soaps have it as part of the recipe, it goes from 10% to 50% .

*For the unpleasant aroma of lard:*
I learned from the begining of my soap adventure,  how to render and how to clean the lard, that way I will never have the smell of any kind of animal product. It is very easy to clean, just need water and salt and the fat you need to be cleaned, just boil everything as many times as you need it and you will see how any fat at the end is without any odor and completelly white. Once I experimented cleaning chicken fat and it goes from being light yellow to beautiful white without any kind of scent. 

In 2003 I learned how to make my own extra virgin coconut oil for health reasons, since then I make my own. But when I need to rest I buy what I need in Costco.

*Soy Wax:* about a year ago I try for first time the use of soy wax in my soaps, my first soap with the wax was beautiful and very smooth, the second batch acelerates incredible fast, why? have no idea, I repeat the recipe at different temperatures and all was the same, to hard very soon and difficult to pour in the molds, so I forget about soy wax for about 6 months. But I am a stubborn person  who loves the challenges, and develop a new recipe that include soy wax again as part of the oils, at the begining I was using 15% , now I end using just 5%, don't need more than that to have a soap with a dense  lather that I love!
After read that some of you use and incredible amount of soy wax in your soaps with success, I will try again to increase the percentage in my recipes, hope with the success you are having.

Thank's to all of you, thank you for sharing your knowledge.


----------



## Dean (Mar 21, 2019)

Atihcnoc said:


> Soy Wax: about a year ago I try for first time the use of soy wax in my soaps, my first soap with the wax was beautiful and very smooth, the second batch acelerates incredible fast, why? have no idea, I repeat the recipe at different temperatures and all was the same, to hard very soon and difficult to pour in the molds, so I forget about soy wax for about 6 months. But I am a stubborn person who loves the challenges, and develop a new recipe that include soy wax again as part of the oils, at the begining I was using 15% , now I end using just 5%, don't need more than that to have a soap with a dense lather that I love!
> After read that some of you use and incredible amount of soy wax in your soaps with success, I will try again to increase the percentage in my recipes, hope with the success you are having.



Try mixing to emulsion not trace for better pour.


----------



## Atihcnoc (Mar 21, 2019)

Hi Dean,
it does not even allow me to get a trace, it gets super hard almost immediately I start using the stick blender and in a less hard state but hard gelatinous if I use only the spatula.
For me it is a big surprise as it is the same recipe, nothing change and the first one was beautiful!!

I will try again with a higher percentage of soy wax to see what happens.

Thank you for your answer.



KiwiMoose said:


> So let's go forth and make soap happily with our chosen 'politically incorrect', non-sustainable, questionably sustainable, genetically modified, Monsanto tainted, dairy/meat industry hate-campaigned OIL OF CHOICE.



Love your comment and I agree KiwiMoose. We all love to make soap, so let's do it our own way, with all the help we can have to finally find the formula that we like the most!

Blessings


----------



## Dean (Mar 21, 2019)

Atihcnoc said:


> Hi Dean,
> it does not even allow me to get a trace, it gets super hard almost immediately I start using the stick blender and in a less hard state but hard gelatinous if I use only the spatula.
> For me it is a big surprise as it is the same recipe, nothing change and the first one was beautiful!!
> 
> ...



SW has never performed that way for me and I have used it since almost day one.  Something else must be going on.  You may want to post the recipe that seized for feedback.  Include your additives, such as FO, and process and we'll see if we can ferret out the issue.


----------



## Meena (Mar 21, 2019)

Atihcnoc said:


> Please, don't mention something you are not completelly sure, to México get ruined it needs a lot more than a genetic pool of corn to say something, as México is one of the most richest and blessed countries with a lot of natural resources. I



I'm not in the habit of talking out my rear end,  and I know quite a lot about GMO.  What I said about Mexico may have used a slight hyperbole ("almost ruined"), but it was based on a documentary I watched a few years ago.   Good luck to you.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 21, 2019)

Dean said:


> SW has never performed that way for me and I have used it since almost day one.  Something else must be going on.  You may want to post the recipe that seized for feedback.  Include your additives, such as FO, and process and we'll see if we can ferret out the issue.


AWWWW - adorable!


----------



## Atihcnoc (Mar 21, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Recipe (remember I have been dubbed Princess Poly-Oil by @Dean):
> Apricot Kernel Oil: 15%
> Babassu Oil: 10%
> Castor Oil: 10%
> ...



KiwiMoose, I want to give it a try to your recipe, I'm going to change Babassu for PKO as I don't have any Babassu at the moment, already check in the soap calc and the diferences are minimum, as soon as it's ready I will post it for you to see it....just one question, did you add aditives like sugar, silk, SL etc. or without additives just F.O.? I'm going to try "Unscented" to see exactly how the soap behave. Thank you!



Dean said:


> SW has never performed that way for me and I have used it since almost day one. Something else must be going on. You may want to post the recipe that seized for feedback. Include your additives, such as FO, and process and we'll see if we can ferret out the issue.



Dean, I was thinking the same, I'm on my way to a school meeting, but as soon as I have time I will post the recipe. Thank you!!


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 21, 2019)

Atihcnoc said:


> KiwiMoose, I want to give it a try to your recipe, I'm going to change Babassu for PKO as I don't have any Babassu at the moment, already check in the soap calc and the diferences are minimum, as soon as it's ready I will post it for you to see it....just one question, did you add aditives like sugar, silk, SL etc. or without additives just F.O.? I'm going to try "Unscented" to see exactly how the soap behave. Thank you!


I usually use colour and a fragrance - EO or FO, usually both! But maybe try a pain one to see how it goes.  Or citrus EOs are usually good for being slow moving - orangle, lemon, grapefruit - maybe give that a go?


----------



## Atihcnoc (Mar 22, 2019)

Dean said:


> You may want to post the recipe that seized for feedback. Include your additives, such as FO, and process and we'll see if we can ferret out the issue.



This is the recipe I'm talking about, I made a small amount as was a test for the use of soy wax, I made 1 kilo batch.

When I'm testing a recipe I have a rule, small batch and no additives or fragrances nor essential oils as I want to see how the recipe really behave. 

I have a mold of 450g that it's the one I use for the test of my recipes, because this one have soy wax I decided to make 1 kilo batch instead of 450g.

_*Method:*_ CPOLP (just the light on, not the oven).
*S.F.*10% *Cc* 30%
Beer as liquid

31% Palm
28% Lard
21% Palm Kernel oil flakes
10% Avocado oil
5% Castor oil
5% Soy Wax

F.O. or E.O.: *No*
Sugar: *No*
Other additives: *No*

Days before put the beer in a pot
and on low heat put the beer to reduce by half to ensure it has no alcohol, I weighed the amount I needed and I froze it. Add the Sodium hidroxide to the frozen beer and move it with a spoon to be sure it was very well dissolved.

In another container I put the hard oils and soy wax to be melted then add the liquid oils, check the temp and it was 130F and the lye at 120F, I mix both and start to use the stick blender, almost immediatelly the mix became very thick, hard...almost imposible to mix, I continue with the stick blender up and down and move to a spoon but it was imposible to move so I decided to put it in the mold with the help of the spoon, I put it in the oven with just the light on, after six hours was hard as a rock and imposible to cut, so I decided to unmold and grate the soap for a rebatch.

Well that was my experience with soy wax, I try the same recipe with different temperatures with the same result, so I decided to quit on the soy wax until I found KiwiMoose recipe and saw her soaps, so I want to try again with her recipe to see how it goes.

I know the recipe is 85% hard oils and 15% liquid oils, but I repeat the test without soy and behave perfectly, I changed soy wax for RBO. 

Please let me know if somebody repeat this recipe and how it goes.

Enjoy making soap!!! 

By the way.....super cute!!!



Dean said:


> .


----------



## Dean (Mar 22, 2019)

Atihcnoc said:


> This is the recipe I'm talking about, I made a small amount as was a test for the use of soy wax, I made 1 kilo batch.
> 
> When I'm testing a recipe I have a rule, small batch and no additives or fragrances nor essential oils as I want to see how the recipe really behave.
> 
> ...



Reviewing above, I can tell u this...ur complication has nothing to do with SW.   As far as the beer goes,  I drink it not soap it.  Hopefully someone else will chime in... @KiwiMoose?



Atihcnoc said:


> By the way.....super cute!!!


 Thx.  I had a ferret.  He got frequent baths.


----------



## Andrew (Mar 23, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I would like to reach out to all CP soapers who use Soy Wax in their recipes.  I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about genetic modification, or hydrogenation or veganism or anti-palm.  I just want to discuss the benefits/issues/drawbacks related to using soy wax in soap.
> 
> Is there anybody out there who uses it?  Let's talk!



Pure soy wax is 87% stearic acid and 11% palmitic acid.  It is a stearic acid substitute for hardening and shaving products.  You should be cautious when buying hydrogenated soy for candle making as the process is only partially done to fit specific melting points and characteristics.   In a lot of blends additives are added to raise the melting temperature, but keep more linoleic fatty acids.  This would make it much more like soaping crisco.  Partially hydrogenated soy also has a lot of trans fats which don't really show up in any literature when it comes to soap making.  You really would want to go with fully hydrogenated if you are going to bring a product to production, but it is quite difficult to find and you would have to buy it straight from a lab that manufacturers it.  

In any of the products you would use, the soy wax is washed tested free of any DNA or allergins so you are getting a pure product of fatty acids.  COAs should confirm that.  

There is the whole GMO debate, but if you are looking for palm free stearic acid (palm has its own problems) then this would be a great way to go.  There are other options like hydrogenated castor oil as well.


----------



## MGM (Mar 23, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> That's coz you crazy cats put your month and day round the wrong way.  It should be 14/3


But then there would never BE a pi day. What they forgot to mention is that you eat PIE on pi day !!


----------



## Richard Dakesian (Mar 24, 2019)

In summary does soy wax add any benefits to the soap over tallow, lard or palm?

Or is it mostly used because of environmental issues people have?


----------



## Chris_S (Mar 24, 2019)

Richard Dakesian said:


> In summary does soy wax add any benefits to the soap over tallow, lard or palm?
> 
> Or is it mostly used because of environmental issues people have?



Tallow, lard and palm are not considered vegan friendly. I know palm isnt an animal product but alot of vegans dont use or eat products with it in because of the environment effects the palm oil industry has on the rainforest and native animals habitats are getting destroyed. As far as im aware thats the biggest issue and reason people avoid palm oil. Therefore soy is the cheapest more suitable alternative people have found. Of course some people who arnt vegan and just object to the palm oil indutries general poor and malpractices need an alternative too. Iv used cocoa butter to harden my last palm free soaps which has worked a treat but in england it costs nearly 15 quid per kg of cocoa butter.

Personally i have used palm and will continue to use it in soaps for people who dont have an issue with palm oil myself included. But as i am considering gearing up to get to selling phase i need to do lots of testing and in the uk veganism and anti palm is only increasing so if using soy sets me out from the bigger crowd of soap makers selling thier soaps then thats good enough reason for me to use it or at least try


----------



## Richard Dakesian (Mar 24, 2019)

Chris_S said:


> Tallow, lard and palm are not considered vegan friendly. I know palm isnt an animal product but alot of vegans dont use or eat products with it in because of the environment effects the palm oil industry has on the rainforest and native animals habitats are getting destroyed. As far as im aware thats the biggest issue and reason people avoid palm oil. Therefore soy is the cheapest more suitable alternative people have found. Of course some people who arnt vegan and just object to the palm oil indutries general poor and malpractices need an alternative too. Iv used cocoa butter to harden my last palm free soaps which has worked a treat but in england it costs nearly 15 quid per kg of cocoa butter.
> 
> Personally i have used palm and will continue to use it in soaps for people who dont have an issue with palm oil myself included. But as i am considering gearing up to get to selling phase i need to do lots of testing and in the uk veganism and anti palm is only increasing so if using soy sets me out from the bigger crowd of soap makers selling thier soaps then thats good enough reason for me to use it or at least try


I see......thanks.


----------



## deb8907 (Mar 24, 2019)

I also find that rice bran oil gives a nice sheen to the finished soap.


----------



## earlene (Mar 24, 2019)

Richard, for me soy wax is an alternative to animal fats, primarily.  It is easily obtained here in the US, is not prohibitively  expensive and can be used in fairly high percentages making it a better choice than some of the vegetable butters such as shea or cocoa butter.

Another benefit that I see is that my soap with soy wax does not seem to form ash, which is nice because the surface colors remain true rather than to be muted by ash that I have to remove (if so inclined).  And I like the sort of shiny finish it produces.


----------



## Chris_S (Mar 24, 2019)

earlene said:


> Richard, for me soy wax is an alternative to animal fats, primarily.  It is easily obtained here in the US, is not prohibitively  expensive and can be used in fairly high percentages making it a better choice than some of the vegetable butters such as shea or cocoa butter.
> 
> Another benefit that I see is that my soap with soy wax does not seem to form ash, which is nice because the surface colors remain true rather than to be muted by ash that I have to remove (if so inclined).  And I like the sort of shiny finish it produces.



Interesting comment about the lack of soda ash forming. Do you treat it the same as any other none soy wax soap you have made, like to a light trace then promoting gel? And still no soda ash? Im yet to try soy wax getting a sample bag hopefully tomorrow to try if it avoids soda ash for me too im already won over by it


----------



## Richard Dakesian (Mar 24, 2019)

earlene said:


> Richard, for me soy wax is an alternative to animal fats, primarily.  It is easily obtained here in the US, is not prohibitively  expensive and can be used in fairly high percentages making it a better choice than some of the vegetable butters such as shea or cocoa butter.
> 
> Another benefit that I see is that my soap with soy wax does not seem to form ash, which is nice because the surface colors remain true rather than to be muted by ash that I have to remove (if so inclined).  And I like the sort of shiny finish it produces.


Thank you...…...I always use about 5% shea……...would the soy wax be better for the skin?


----------



## earlene (Mar 24, 2019)

As far as better for the skin, I can't say, really.  But if you feel that the shea imparts some benefit to the skin in soap (I don't, but if you do, that is fine), you can still use shea in the formula.   I am not as fond of shea as the industry seems to suggest.

Re: soda ash -  Yes, other than any temperature concerns, I do treat most of my soap the same in terms of gelling.  Not all soap I make is taken only to light trace, however.  It depends on design plans (swirls, etc.)   For the most part I gel my soaps, but occasionally not.  I don't think I have ever tried a non-gelled soy soap, however.


----------



## Richard Dakesian (Mar 24, 2019)

earlene said:


> As far as better for the skin, I can't say, really.  But if you feel that the shea imparts some benefit to the skin in soap (I don't, but if you do, that is fine), you can still use shea in the formula.   I am not as fond of shea as the industry seems to suggest.
> 
> Re: soda ash -  Yes, other than any temperature concerns, I do treat most of my soap the same in terms of gelling.  Not all soap I make is taken only to light trace, however.  It depends on design plans (swirls, etc.)   For the most part I gel my soaps, but occasionally not.  I don't think I have ever tried a non-gelled soy soap, however.


Thanks, maybe I will just ditch the shea.  

I have used shea for so long at 5% that I have forgotten if it helps or not.  LOL!!


----------



## Atihcnoc (Mar 24, 2019)

earlene said:


> Another benefit that I see is that my soap with soy wax does not seem to form ash, which is nice because the surface colors remain true rather than to be muted by ash that I have to remove (if so inclined). And I like the sort of shiny finish it produces.



Do you mind to share the percentage of soy wax is working for you? 

Normally I spray with alcohol the tops of my soaps as soon as I pour it in the mold to avoid the ash, as well sometimes I just covered the top with "Saran wrap" (polyethylene food wrap) and also works for me.


----------



## earlene (Mar 24, 2019)

I like at least 30% soy wax, although others use more and love a higher percentage.

For me the alcohol spray, even with the 91% alcohol, does not give me consistent results for preventing soda ash.  Rather than plastic wrap (which I have used in the past, but don't really like due to condensation issues), I use a piece of cardboard as a cover, although it doesn't touch the top of the soap like plastic wrap can.  For some reason some people have a lot more luck preventing ash than others.  I am sure there are lots of reasons, and the actual soap recipe probably has something to do with that as well as all the other adjuncts one can throw into the mix.


----------



## Atihcnoc (Mar 24, 2019)

earlene said:


> I like at least 30% soy wax, although others use more and love a higher percentage.



Thank you Earlene.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 24, 2019)

Atihcnoc said:


> This is the recipe I'm talking about, I made a small amount as was a test for the use of soy wax, I made 1 kilo batch.
> 
> When I'm testing a recipe I have a rule, small batch and no additives or fragrances nor essential oils as I want to see how the recipe really behave.
> 
> ...


Sorry i didn't realise this was here about the beer.  I don't think it would be the soy wax,  I made a successful beer soap using 20% soy wax with no acceleration at all.  I think the issue was with the quantity of hard oils you have?  My recipe is 20/20/20 Olive, Coconut and Soy Wax then usually 15 RBO, 10 Shea, 10 Avocado and 5 castor.  I mix those quantities and oils up a bit sometimes but it's only 50% hard oils.


----------



## earlene (Mar 24, 2019)

That recipe you have there *Atihcnoc*, has so much stearic in it already, plus all the sugar in the beer.  Only 5% soy wax shouldn't make so much difference over-all.  But if you use the exact same recipe with the only change being the soy wax, what else changed?  Did you reduce one of the other stearic containing oils (palm or pko?)  If not, then perhaps the added stearic was too much.  Or is this a completely new-to-you recipe?  

Personally I would not try a new-to-me oil with a beer soap because the beer adds its own complications that can interfere with trying to evaluate how the new oil will perform.  Also that's a huge batch for a test batch, which you do not normally do, but I don't understand why you more than doubled your usual test batch size.

What were you trying to learn from the soy wax as an ingredient in the soap?  If you want to learn if it is a good animal product replacement or a good palm replacement, then you'd have to use it as such and eliminate the lard or the palm to see how well it replaces either.  But to just add 5% and keep the others wouldn't tell you much in terms of soy as a replacement.  But if that's not what you were trying to learn from soy wax, then what?  I am truly curious what your goal was in this experiment.


----------



## RDak (Mar 25, 2019)

Does soy wax reduce, increase or keep lather the same if it replaces lard, tallow or palm?  (And everything else stays the same in a recipe.)

Thanks for any info.


----------



## Dean (Mar 25, 2019)

RDak said:


> Does soy wax reduce, increase or keep lather the same if it replaces lard, tallow or palm?  (And everything else stays the same in a recipe.)
> 
> Thanks for any info.



http://www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 25, 2019)

RDak said:


> Does soy wax reduce, increase or keep lather the same if it replaces lard, tallow or palm?  (And everything else stays the same in a recipe.)
> 
> Thanks for any info.


I can't speak for replacement of any of those three because I've never used them.  I use about 20% soy wax as my 'hardener' for want of a better word, to replace the need for any of those three. I also use 10 - 15% shea butter in every batch and my soaps seem to have a lovely lather.  I use 20 % CO as well and the rest soft oils.


----------



## RDak (Mar 26, 2019)

Thanks guys!


----------



## Andrew (Mar 26, 2019)

RDak said:


> Does soy wax reduce, increase or keep lather the same if it replaces lard, tallow or palm?  (And everything else stays the same in a recipe.)
> 
> Thanks for any info.



Soy wax is not a substitute for lard, tallow, or palm.  It is 98% stearic/palmitic acid.  You can look instead at cocoa, mango, kokum, illipe, and shea butters.  Cocoa/kokum will be the closest.  Mango will be pretty similar and shea will have less stearic acid.


----------



## Dean (Mar 26, 2019)

Andrew said:


> Soy wax is not a substitute for lard, tallow, or palm.  It is 98% stearic/palmitic acid.  You can look instead at cocoa, mango, kokum, illipe, and shea butters.  Cocoa/kokum will be the closest.  Mango will be pretty similar and shea will have less stearic acid.



Andrew has a point.  I wouldn't swap out any oil, without seeing how it effects the fatty acid profile and properties.  If you have a recipe that you like and you want to swap out lard, tallow or palm for SW, you will likely need to adjust all the percentages oils to get to same fatty acid profile or properties that your original recipe has.


----------



## RDak (Mar 27, 2019)

Dean said:


> Andrew has a point.  I wouldn't swap out any oil, without seeing how it effects the fatty acid profile and properties.  If you have a recipe that you like and you want to swap out lard, tallow or palm for SW, you will likely need to adjust all the percentages oils to get to same fatty acid profile or properties that your original recipe has.


It seems to me it is a replacement for those oils in the area of hardening the bars.

Kiwi appears to use about one half of the normal percentage of soy wax to achieve the same hardness as my 40 percent tallow recipes.

That would allow her to use soft oils more and gain the same hardness.

My main question really is...…...how does the soy wax "feel" and "affect" the skin when used in those rather substantial amounts members are using it at and not using as much lard, tallow or palm?

For example, let's say I make a batch of 20 percent BOTH soy wax and coconut with the remaining 60 percent HO Canola oil (which is found easily at pretty cheap prices in many areas).

Would that make a good soap?  It would save people money in most cases if it does.

The Soapee calculator says it is acceptable in all areas except it is one point low in the bubbly area.


----------



## Dean (Mar 27, 2019)

RDak said:


> For example, let's say I make a batch of 20 percent BOTH soy wax and coconut with the remaining 60 percent HO Canola oil (which is found easily at pretty cheap prices in many areas).
> 
> Would that make a good soap? It would save people money in most cases if it does.



I find no adverse effect on skin feel.  To me it’s neutral.  

I think it would make very nice soap.  It will be more mild than ur tallow recpie becuz it will be less cleansing. Other than that the properties are pretty much the same. Y not make a of cpl of test bars?


----------



## RDak (Mar 27, 2019)

Dean said:


> I think it would make very nice soap.  Maybe add 5% castor for lather stability.  I’ve made a similar recipie.  Y not make a of cpl of test bars?


Thanks.

I am done making soap for the season but I think I will try, 20 percent both of soy wax and coconut, 55 percent HO Canola and 5 percent Castor.

I always use 5 percent castor so I should have put that in my original question....sorry.

Just for the heck of it I think I will try a few batches of that recipe next fall/winter when I make all my batches.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 27, 2019)

Sounds good @RDak - my preference is for RBO if you're after a cheapie, but it can't be used over about 15% without bringing the lino's up too high.  I've recently started adding avocado oil at 10 - 15% in all my recipes and I've fallen in love with it.  A much creamier lather than previously when I used Apricot kernel Oil.  For only $1 difference per litre, I'm switching to Avocado.

To answer the 'feel' of soy wax on your skin - I can't compare with animal fats or palm because I've never used them, but all I can say it feels and performs a bit like a hard butter would in soap? Say a cocoa butter?  I've noticed some similarity there with my CB soaps I have made.


----------



## earlene (Mar 27, 2019)

Right, for those of us who don't use soaps with animal fats, it's hard to give a definitive answer.  I don't even use palm very often either, although I have used it some to see what it was like, plus I was given some PKO as well and used that.  But to compare how soy wax in soap feels on my skin compared to the other ingredients, I just have insufficient personal knowledge.

Perhaps someone who normally uses soaps with animal fats &/or palm will come along with some personal comparisons.


----------



## Dean (Mar 27, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Sounds good @RDak - my preference is for RBO if you're after a cheapie, but it can't be used over about 15% without bringing the lino's up too high.  I've recently started adding avocado oil at 10 - 15% in all my recipes and I've fallen in love with it.  A much creamier lather than previously when I used Apricot kernel Oil.  For only $1 difference per litre, I'm switching to Avocado.
> 
> To answer the 'feel' of soy wax on your skin - I can't compare with animal fats or palm because I've never used them, but all I can say it feels and performs a bit like a hard butter would in soap? Say a cocoa butter?  I've noticed some similarity there with my CB soaps I have made.



Good advice.  Henceforth, I dub thee Soy Wax Queen.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 27, 2019)

Dean said:


> Good advice.  Henceforth, I dub thee Soy Wax Queen.


Lol, I was a Princess and now I’m a Queen? Bismillah, no!


----------



## Dawni (Mar 28, 2019)

So I ordered the 444! I'm still waiting around for some suppliers to come back to me. Still hoping for the 415....

@RDak if you don't mind waiting a bit til I can use my soy wax.. I have used lard so at least for that one I can give a comparison. I can't find tallow and only have access to palm olein, not palm, sorry. 

I'll use a usual recipe that has no other hardeners and only switch the lard for soy wax at 30% (that's the amount of lard used in that recipe) and I'll report back here. That seems to be a good number, yes? 

I'll even CP it so it'll be a better comparison for you guys lol good thing I have a lard CP soap.....


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 28, 2019)

Love the new profile pic @Dawni!


----------



## RDak (Mar 28, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Sounds good @RDak - my preference is for RBO if you're after a cheapie, but it can't be used over about 15% without bringing the lino's up too high.  I've recently started adding avocado oil at 10 - 15% in all my recipes and I've fallen in love with it.  A much creamier lather than previously when I used Apricot kernel Oil.  For only $1 difference per litre, I'm switching to Avocado.
> 
> *To answer the 'feel' of soy wax on your skin - I can't compare with animal fats or palm because I've never used them, but all I can say it feels and performs a bit like a hard butter would in soap? Say a cocoa butter?  I've noticed some similarity there with my CB soaps I have made*.


Thanks!

I can get HO Canola at Gordon Food Service stores for pretty cheap in large quantities.

I have used RBO over the years and it is good also but I didn't notice too much of a difference between the two.

I wish Soapers Choice sold soy wax.



Dawni said:


> So I ordered the 444! I'm still waiting around for some suppliers to come back to me. Still hoping for the 415....
> 
> @RDak *if you don't mind waiting a bit til I can use my soy wax.. I have used lard so at least for that one I can give a comparison*. I can't find tallow and only have access to palm olein, not palm, sorry.
> 
> ...


Will do because the season is over for me with soaping......I do it starting late fall through most of the winter only.

Ask Kiwi about the percentage to use...….I have NO IDEA.


----------



## Andrew (Mar 28, 2019)

RDak said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I can get HO Canola at Gordon Food Service stores for pretty cheap in large quantities.
> 
> ...



no one really sells soy wax.  you can get candle wax, but it does not work the same at all since they are all partially hydrogenated.  Here is where I source mine from.  50 lbs boxes.  If you really want some, feel free to shoot me an email.

Chemol Company Inc.
2300 Randolph Ave
Greensboro, NC 27406
800-849-3050  office


----------



## earlene (Mar 28, 2019)

Dawni said:


> So I ordered the 444! I'm still waiting around for some suppliers to come back to me. Still hoping for the 415....
> 
> @RDak if you don't mind waiting a bit til I can use my soy wax.. I have used lard so at least for that one I can give a comparison. I can't find tallow and only have access to palm olein, not palm, sorry.
> 
> ...




Yes, 30% Soy Wax is fine.  That's what I generally use, although you can use more.  But for comparison purposes, I believe it's best to maintain the same percentage as the oil your are substituting.  That way you can make a true comparison to how the bar differs from the bar made with 30% Lard.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 28, 2019)

Andrew said:


> no one really sells soy wax.  you can get candle wax, but it does not work the same at all since they are all partially hydrogenated.  Here is where I source mine from.  50 lbs boxes.  If you really want some, feel free to shoot me an email.
> 
> Chemol Company Inc.
> 
> ...


Not sure what you mean Andrew?  Soy wax _is_ hydrogenated soybean oil.  Plenty of places sell it, it's just getting the pure soy wax with no additives ( for candles) that is difficult.  However, I live in li'l ol' New Zealand and we can even get it here. Golden Brands 415.


----------



## earlene (Mar 28, 2019)

I think what he (Andrew) means is that it's not a 'true wax'.  Or not a naturally occurring wax, rather created by humans via processing.  Regardless, that's what they call it, so that's what we call it.  And that's how it's listed in the lye calculators, so it makes it easy to find when we make soap.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Mar 28, 2019)

earlene said:


> I think what he (Andrew) means is that it's not a 'true wax'.  Or not a naturally occurring wax, rather created by humans via processing.  Regardless, that's what they call it, so that's what we call it.  And that's how it's listed in the lye calculators, so it makes it easy to find when we make soap.


Oh I see! Sorry Andrew


----------



## Andrew (Mar 29, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Not sure what you mean Andrew?  Soy wax _is_ hydrogenated soybean oil.  Plenty of places sell it, it's just getting the pure soy wax with no additives ( for candles) that is difficult.  However, I live in li'l ol' New Zealand and we can even get it here. Golden Brands 415.



If you look at the fatty acid break down of 415 and 444 and, well any, golden brands candle wax then you will see that there is a very high amount of linoleic/lineoleic acids.  You can also see this in the spec sheet by looking at the melting points ranging from ~100˚-130˚.  Golden Brands 415 wax states 44% satruated fat, 39.4% trans fat, and 16.6 monosaturated fat with a melting point of 121-125.  Pure hydrogenated soy was has a melting point of ~145˚ reflecting the stearic/palmitic acids and is 98% saturated fat.  Plainly put, if you are using golden brands candle wax in soap, you are not getting fully hydrogenated soy wax, but instead a partially hydrogenated product made specifically for various types of candle making and you don't know how it fits into the lye calculator.  https://dpoy1j4zladj1.cloudfront.net/415.pdf

Fully hydrogenated soy is extremely hard to source as it competes with palm stearic acid for price and use.


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## Dean (Mar 29, 2019)

Andrew said:


> If you look at the fatty acid break down of 415 and 444 and, well any, golden brands candle wax then you will see that there is a very high amount of linoleic/lineoleic acids.  You can also see this in the spec sheet by looking at the melting points ranging from ~100˚-130˚.  Golden Brands 415 wax states 44% satruated fat, 39.4% trans fat, and 16.6 monosaturated fat with a melting point of 121-125.  Pure hydrogenated soy was has a melting point of ~145˚ reflecting the stearic/palmitic acids and is 98% saturated fat.  Plainly put, if you are using golden brands candle wax in soap, you are not getting fully hydrogenated soy wax, but instead a partially hydrogenated product made specifically for various types of candle making and you don't know how it fits into the lye calculator.  https://dpoy1j4zladj1.cloudfront.net/415.pdf
> 
> Fully hydrogenated soy is extremely hard to source as it competes with palm stearic acid for price and use.



Wow!  That’s bombshell for us SW users.  I’m godsmacked.

Ur right!  I just checked my vendor’s site.  It states 415 is partially hydrogenated SO.

I use SW at 40%.  In the calc thats a hardness factor and saturation of 50%.  My bars r hard but not so hard they dont bend when thin.  I always wondered y this was when the hardness factor so high.  Now I kno why. The actual hardness factor and saturation is somewhat lower.

Isn’t trans fat a saturated fat?  If thats true the calcs are off by 16.6% when using SW.  Now the question is how to adj the calc for 415?  Put in both SW and SO? Ive got two bags of the stuff.

SW only requires 1.6% more sodium hydrox than SO.    Superfat takes care of the diff which y r soaps r ok on that front.  The diff is really in the properties and acids..esp lins.  We don’t even kno if SW manufactures use HO SO or reg SO.


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## Nanette (Mar 29, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> It's higher in palmitic, plus it adds a bit more creaminess to the lather. And it is sooooo cheap!
> 
> 
> The bars are lovely to use. You can even leave them soaking in their own water and they retain firmness without turning to sludge. Here's some pics:
> ...


These soaps are just Beautiful, KiwiMoose--what a treat for the eyes!


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## earlene (Mar 29, 2019)

This is interesting, *Andrew*. 

So I wonder what calculation one could make to evaluate the actual results or if there is a an adjustment one could make  in the a lye calculator to come up with an accurate account.   Not that it alters the satisfaction those of us who are happy with soy wax in soap, but just out of interest.  Any ideas?

Also, I have the same question as Dean, in this data sheet from the Golden site, which indicates high lins?  Or is it the process of hydrogenation that produces high lins? 

As I understand it both linoleic and lenolenic acids are polyunsaturated fats that contribute to the rich silky conditioning feel of soap.  Although too high in soap, can lead to DOS, so a more accurate number would be nice, of course.

Incidentally, I see the Seydel Company lists a fully hydrogenated soy wax (Carowax HSO) but don't see it anywhere to purchase.  So I suspect they have made it at some point.  I wonder for what purpose, specifically.  And even if it does compete with Palm, for the vegans out there, that is a good thing, except that for the most part, it's still made from mostly Genetically Modified soy beans, since there aren't many non-GM soy farmers around, in the US anyway.  So maybe mute point if GMO is a concern.

An aside about soy beans.   I have been eating soy beans since I was quite young and I am quite old now.  The soy beans I buy today look very different from the soy beans I bought in my 20's.  They are much, much smaller than they were when I bought them before GM soy beans became the norm.  I just mention that because as a consumer of the bean, I have noticed the change over the years and it makes me wonder if the nutritional content of the soy bean has also changed with GMO.  I know, that has nothing to do with making soap, but it's something I've noticed.


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## Dean (Mar 29, 2019)

earlene said:


> This is interesting, *Andrew*.
> 
> So I wonder what calculation one could make to evaluate the actual results or if there is a an adjustment one could make  in the a lye calculator to come up with an accurate account.   Not that it alters the satisfaction those of us who are happy with soy wax in soap, but just out of interest.  Any ideas?
> 
> ...



I think andrew is getting the hi lins becuz SW is actually 16.6% SO which is high in lins.

I think I figured it out.  SW% * .166 = SO%.   SW% - SO% = adj SW%.  Put SO% and adj SW% in calc to see recipies tru props and acids.

There is an about 5% diff in the hardness prop, which is what I expected.  I knew it was off.

Before



After


My 40% SW recipie is actually 33 SW and 7 SO.  Adjusting these numbers to get my desired calc props will be the tricky part.  How do I increase (or decrease) the adj SW and SO so the ratio stays the same?  Hopefully someone will help with that equation.

@Andrew deserves some sort of award for figuring this out.


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## earlene (Mar 29, 2019)

*Dean*, so your recipe does actually contain regular soy oil as well as the soy wax?  Or are you saying you manipulated the calculator to list the soy oil in order the get more accurate numbers for the fatty acid profile?  Not sure which is the case in the second photo.  If you did that, did it change the lye calculation at all?

Now, just to clarify, where is the information that shows Soy Wax (415) is 16.6 % soy oil, again?  I'm not sure where you got that number.  I mean, I do see the 16.6%, but that's for mono-saturated fats.  I don't see how that computes to the content of the soy wax being 16.6% Soy Oil.  And both linoleic and linolenic acids are polyunsaturated fatty acids, but the link to the soy wax data sheet says polys are 0%.  Still not getting where the 16.6% applies to re-calculation of the soap formula. Sometimes it takes me a while, so please bear with me if it is obvious to you, but not to me.  I obviously need more help understanding.

*Another question for Andrew*:
Or *Dean* if you know the answer.
Can you link a data sheet for pure hydrogenated soy wax?  I couldn't find one, but am probably using the wrong search perimeters (sometimes it takes me a while to get there) to bring one up as yet.  One that lists the melting point you mentioned (145 F)  I'd like to take a look for comparative purposes.   Thank you in advance.


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## Dean (Mar 29, 2019)

earlene said:


> *Dean*, so your recipe does actually contain regular soy oil as well as the soy wax?  Or are you saying you manipulated the calculator to list the soy oil in order the get more accurate numbers for the fatty acid profile?  Not sure which is the case in the second photo.  If you did that, did it change the lye calculation at all?
> 
> Now, just to clarify, where is the information that shows Soy Wax (415) is 16.6 % soy oil, again?  I'm not sure where you got that number.  I mean, I do see the 16.6%, but that's for mono-saturated fats.  I don't see how that computes to the content of the soy wax being 16.6% Soy Oil.  And both linoleic and linolenic acids are polyunsaturated fatty acids, but the link to the soy wax data sheet says polys are 0%.  Still not getting where the 16.6% applies to re-calculation of the soap formula. Sometimes it takes me a while, so please bear with me if it is obvious to you, but not to me.  I obviously need more help understanding.
> 
> ...



I don’t use SO.  Andrew is saying that 415 is 16.6 monoUNsaturated.  Im assuming trans is 100 saturated.  So the SW is partially hydrogenated but not the kind in the calc.  To rig the calc Im combining SW and SO.

The NAOH is the same.


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## KiwiMoose (Mar 29, 2019)




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## Dean (Mar 29, 2019)

Based on this info, I should be soaping at 50 SW not 40.  Im going to make a test batch this wknd!


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## Atihcnoc (Mar 30, 2019)

earlene said:


> What were you trying to learn from the soy wax as an ingredient in the soap? If you want to learn if it is a good animal product replacement or a good palm replacement, then you'd have to use it as such and eliminate the lard or the palm to see how well it replaces either. But to just add 5% and keep the others wouldn't tell you much in terms of soy as a replacement. But if that's not what you were trying to learn from soy wax, then what? I am truly curious what your goal was in this experiment.



Hi Earlene, I been busy with my nephew school, just saw your message, sorry about the delay in answering.

I tried to make a super creamy soap, the beer helps with that but also the soap is softer and dissolves faster, so I thought of adding the soy wax it will help with the hardness as well the palm oil. Maybe what I can do is to substitute the palm for soy wax? The strange thing is that I make the same recipe without soy wax and behave perfect (the elves of soap) or I was lucky.... maybe change half part of Palm and half of Olive oil or all of the palm oil?

It was not my normally test batch as for some reason (have no idea why)  I thought it will be better to make a test that size.

What do you suggest? I prefer a creamy soap to a soap with bubbles.

The recipe was an experiment and I will continue experimenting with soy wax.

Thank you.


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## Dean (Mar 30, 2019)

Replacing palm with 415 based on hardness is .60 415 SW to 1 Palm...if my math is right.


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## Andrew (Mar 31, 2019)

earlene said:


> *Dean*, so your recipe does actually contain regular soy oil as well as the soy wax?  Or are you saying you manipulated the calculator to list the soy oil in order the get more accurate numbers for the fatty acid profile?  Not sure which is the case in the second photo.  If you did that, did it change the lye calculation at all?
> 
> Now, just to clarify, where is the information that shows Soy Wax (415) is 16.6 % soy oil, again?  I'm not sure where you got that number.  I mean, I do see the 16.6%, but that's for mono-saturated fats.  I don't see how that computes to the content of the soy wax being 16.6% Soy Oil.  And both linoleic and linolenic acids are polyunsaturated fatty acids, but the link to the soy wax data sheet says polys are 0%.  Still not getting where the 16.6% applies to re-calculation of the soap formula. Sometimes it takes me a while, so please bear with me if it is obvious to you, but not to me.  I obviously need more help understanding.
> 
> ...




Here is my spec sheet for fully hydrogenated soy wax I get from my USA supplier.  50 lbs boxes minimum.  You can see there is not much information in there, but saponification calculators pretty much have a SAP value of 192, very close to soybean oil.  So while the fatty acid makeup changes through various stages of the hydrogenation process, it seems that the various trans fatty acids really do not affect the SAP value.  Trans fats, btw, are by definition unsaturated since the double bond is what makes their kinks.  So there are no necessary adjustments to the lye discount.  The biggest difference is that soy wax has three times more glycerin than fats and that will account for a large difference in feel of the bar.  

Nut butters, especially cocoa/kokum/illipe are going to be the best substitutes for tallow/lard.


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## RDak (Mar 31, 2019)

Andrew, thanks for the links and specs.

What is the price for 50lbs of the Carowax HSO?


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## Dean (Mar 31, 2019)

Andrew said:


> Trans fats, btw, are by definition unsaturated since the double bond is what makes their kinks.



Looks like soap calcs treat trans as saturated tho.


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## earlene (Mar 31, 2019)

Andrew said:


> Here is my spec sheet for fully hydrogenated soy wax I get from my USA supplier.  50 lbs boxes minimum.  You can see there is not much information in there, but saponification calculators pretty much have a SAP value of 192, very close to soybean oil.  So while the fatty acid makeup changes through various stages of the hydrogenation process, it seems that the various trans fatty acids really do not affect the SAP value.  Trans fats, btw, are by definition unsaturated since the double bond is what makes their kinks.  So there are no necessary adjustments to the lye discount.  The biggest difference is that soy wax has three times more glycerin than fats and that will account for a large difference in feel of the bar.
> 
> Nut butters, especially cocoa/kokum/illipe are going to be the best substitutes for tallow/lard.




So, *Andrew*, could you be so kind as to provide a link to your supplier of Carowax HSO?  I have been unable to find a supplier that has any for sale (as mentioned before in a previous post.)

I'd like to purchase some to use and see if I notice a huge difference in the end result of the soap I make.

Incidentally, do you use it to make soap or for another purpose?

Thank you


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## Andrew (Mar 31, 2019)

earlene said:


> So, *Andrew*, could you be so kind as to provide a link to your supplier of Carowax HSO?  I have been unable to find a supplier that has any for sale (as mentioned before in a previous post.)
> I'd like to purchase some to use and see if I notice a huge difference in the end result of the soap I make.
> Incidentally, do you use it to make soap or for another purpose?
> Thank you


the sales number is in the form.  Otherwise, you can contact listed below.
*Shannon Taylor*
Sales,Customer Service &
Logistics Manager
Chemol Company Inc.
2300 Randolph Ave
Greensboro, NC 27406
800-849-3050  office
[email protected]


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## earlene (Mar 31, 2019)

Thank you, *Andrew*.

I sent an email to their customer service requesting pricing and a data sheet and how to order, hopefully online.  I know there are others like me who like to do their orders online rather than over the phone.  One reason I prefer online orders to phone orders is that I am hearing impaired and have a lot of difficulty hearing over the phone.  Even with my closed caption phone, the translation of some people comes out so garbled, I still don't always understand what they are saying.  (You should see what closed captioning does with translating even my own eldest son's sentences.  It's hilarious.)

Andrew, do you make soy wax soap?  What is your experience with the Carowax HSO in soap?


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## Andrew (Apr 1, 2019)

Chemol is a wholesale CHEMICAL company, not a soap making supply company.  You will absolutely need to go through a person or email.  You cannot buy online.

One thing I completely forgot about is castor wax.  It has a very high melting temperature (85˚C) and I believe is 12-hydroxystearic acid.


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## Dawni (Apr 1, 2019)

Andrew said:


> One thing I completely forgot about is castor wax.  It has a very high melting temperature (85˚C) and I believe is 12-hydroxystearic acid.


I came across this while looking for soy wax but there's a range of sap values, and I'm not sure which one to use. Have you tried it @Andrew? I have a thread on not so common waxes for soap, for people who need more info in the future.. Maybe you're even familiar with some others. Could we maybe discuss castor wax there and keep this thread solely for soy wax?


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## Andrew (Apr 1, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I came across this while looking for soy wax but there's a range of sap values, and I'm not sure which one to use. Have you tried it @Andrew? I have a thread on not so common waxes for soap, for people who need more info in the future.. Maybe you're even familiar with some others. Could we maybe discuss castor wax there and keep this thread solely for soy wax?



sap value right in the specs AKA 180

https://bulknaturaloils.com/castor-wax-flakes.html#product_tabs_additional_tabbed


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## earlene (Apr 1, 2019)

Chemol (not shannon, but someone else) responded to my email and said they sell per pallet, which is 2000 pounds of product according to the email.  The cost per pallet (prior to shipping from N.C.) is $3,760.00 US.  

They will sell less for evaluation purposes, so I suppose I could purchase one 50 pound bag on spec.  Then never place another order, because they probably wouldn't do that twice with the same buyer.  I expect the per pound price would go up plus the shipping cost would be another factor.  So, at this point, I am not sure what the cost would be, but I am guessing around $150 - $200.00 US.  But that depends on the shipping method used; it could be even more.  

I am awaiting a response to my inquiry regarding purchasing only one bag.  We shall see.  If the price is as high as I suspect, it's probably more cost effective to stick to the 415 soy wax as I can order smaller amounts, costs a lot less and no added shipping via Amazon.

Incidentally, they did not answer my question about other vendors who sell smaller amounts of their product.


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## Amy78130 (Apr 2, 2019)

I’m so glad there’s such a wide variety of people with different view points and people with the ability to think outside of the soap box. My mind is blown.. I didn’t even think that such variances existed in soy wax! Small details an make a huge difference in outcome, both in candle making and soap making. Thank you Andrew and Dean...


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## earlene (Apr 2, 2019)

earlene said:


> Chemol (not shannon, but someone else) responded to my email and said they sell per pallet, which is 2000 pounds of product according to the email.  The cost per pallet (prior to shipping from N.C.) is $3,760.00 US.
> 
> They will sell less for evaluation purposes, so I suppose I could purchase one 50 pound bag on spec.  Then never place another order, because they probably wouldn't do that twice with the same buyer.  I expect the per pound price would go up plus the shipping cost would be another factor.  So, at this point, I am not sure what the cost would be, but I am guessing around $150 - $200.00 US.  But that depends on the shipping method used; it could be even more.
> 
> ...



Well that's out of the question.  They want $300.00 plus shipping for a 50 pound bag.  Way more expensive the the 415 Soy wax.  I am not even willing to try it at that price.


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## Andrew (Apr 2, 2019)

i was quoted way below that so i don't know what is going on in terms of pricing.  These companies are not for hobbyists or part time soap makers since they deal with laboratories and high volume companies.  So i don't know what is going on.


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## Dean (Apr 2, 2019)

earlene said:


> Well that's out of the question.  They want $300.00 plus shipping for a 50 pound bag.  Way more expensive the the 415 Soy wax.  I am not even willing to try it at that price.



I think 415 is fine.  I kind of like that it boosts lins a little bit.  Plus, its so darn cheap.  Its the cheapest oil in my recipe.  The more SW the better!

Now if we can only get the calc owners to add 415 to their calcs so we won't have do the math to figure out the true soap properties and acids...


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## Nanette (Apr 2, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> That purple one (daphne scented) I gave to a friend to try (after I had sampled it myself and was very happy with the texture and found it to be quite creamy and soft feeling) and she LOVED it.  She said she doesn't usually like bar soap because she has dry skin and it usually makes it worse.  However she said this left her hands feeling quite moisturised and soft.
> 
> Recipe (remember I have been dubbed Princess Poly-Oil by @Dean):
> Apricot Kernel Oil: 15%
> ...


I keep coming back to the purple tie dye  bars...they are really lovely!


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## earlene (Apr 2, 2019)

Dean said:


> I think 415 is fine.  I kind of like that it boosts lins a little bit.  Plus, its so darn cheap.  Its the cheapest oil in my recipe.  The more SW the better!
> 
> Now if we can only get the calc owners to add 415 to their calcs so we won't have do the math to figure out the true soap properties and acids...



Yes, that would be nice.  But I did sort of want to try it to see if there's a noticeable difference.  However, with the cost being so prohibitive, I will likely never know.


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## Andrew (Apr 2, 2019)

Dean said:


> I think 415 is fine.  I kind of like that it boosts lins a little bit.  Plus, its so darn cheap.  Its the cheapest oil in my recipe.  The more SW the better!
> 
> Now if we can only get the calc owners to add 415 to their calcs so we won't have do the math to figure out the true soap properties and acids...



soapee's calculator has soy wax at 27% hydrogenated.  that is pretty close to 415's 30% if i remember correctly


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## Dean (Apr 2, 2019)

Andrew said:


> soapee's calculator has soy wax at 27% hydrogenated.  that is pretty close to 415's 30% if i remember correctly



27 hydro is a shortening.   415 is no shortening.  I would not want to eat a 415 SW cookie or make a candle made out of shortening.  I don’t even think 27 is avail anymore.  Prob got discontinued when the food industry transitioned to palm.


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## Andrew (Apr 3, 2019)

Dean said:


> 27 hydro is a shortening.   415 is no shortening.  I would not want to eat a 415 SW cookie or make a candle made out of shortening.  I don’t even think 27 is avail anymore.  Prob got discontinued when the food industry transitioned to palm.



I don't know what calculator you are using, but I recommend you switch to soapee.  Attached is a screenshot showing fatty acid makeup of both criscos, partially hydrogenated soy, and soy wax.  As you can see they are all quite different.  415 fits under 27% hydrogenated soy.

Am I the only person who has called Golden Brands and spoke to one of their USA reps about their products?


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## Dean (Apr 3, 2019)

Andrew said:


> I don't know what calculator you are using, but I recommend you switch to soapee.  Attached is a screenshot showing fatty acid makeup of both criscos, partially hydrogenated soy, and soy wax.  As you can see they are all quite different.  415 fits under 27% hydrogenated soy.
> 
> Am I the only person who has called Golden Brands and spoke to one of their USA reps about their products?



I use soapee.

I respectfully disagree with u.... 27 and 415 are not the same.  27 is a shortening for commercial baking.  It is harder than crisco and comes in a block that can be cut...not scooped.  I highly doubt 415 can be cut after its been melted, poured into a block mold and cooled.


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## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

That is interesting.  In 2008, you could apparently still buy 27% hydrogenated soybean oil shortening at Sam's Club.  https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/difference-between-crisco-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/

That is not the case anymore.  So much research and the banning of trans-fats in so many places has eliminated this product from the marketplace as far as I can find.  But then I have never looked for it before.

That 2008 link was before my time as a soapmaker and I never particularly noticed it as a food product, so have no tangible recollection of it.  But I do know Sam's Club, and if they sold it as a shortening, it did not in any way resemble the consistency of GW 415.  BUT, even if it didn't resemble the consistency, that is not to say the fatty acid profile is not the same.  (could be, right?)

I wonder if it would make a difference in the soap if that line were used instead of the other other soy wax line?  It doesn't make a discernible difference in the amount of lye, but quality numbers change quite a bit.  I think it's worth and experiment if any 27% hydrogenated soy shortening could be found to use in comparison.

Dean, it (27% hyrdrogenated soy shortening) still available anywhere where you live?  If it is, please share more information like, brand, etc.  If I could find some, I'd be willing to do some experimental soap making comparisons.  If we can't find any there is no way I can think of to do a comparison test, though.

So, Andrew?  Are you a chemical engineer or similar?


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## Dean (Apr 3, 2019)

earlene said:


> That is interesting.  In 2008, you could apparently still buy 27% hydrogenated soybean oil shortening at Sam's Club.  https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/difference-between-crisco-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/
> 
> That is not the case anymore.  So much research and the banning of trans-fats in so many places has eliminated this product from the marketplace as far as I can find.  But then I have never looked for it before.
> 
> ...



This is the post in that thread that I'm referencing.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...co-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/#post-48567

I couldn't find 27.  I highly doubt its available anymore.  The industry has moved from trans fats to palm for health reasons.  Of course palm is bad for health AND the environment.

Since neither 27 nor 100 hydro SW is readily available, I suggested on the SoapMakingFriend forum that 415 be included in the calc.  No response.  I guess that calc will use outdated oils too.

I think what is confusing people here is the hydrogenation percentage which is irrelevant to soap.  Its the saturation that matters IMO.  Andrew is assuming that since trans fat is not a true saturated fat, then it should be treated as unsaturated fat in soap.  However,  the calcs are treating trans fats as saturated fats, which they should .  Trans fats are solid like saturated fat.  That's the point of hydrogenation.  My math says 415 is 84% saturated which why its behaving so much like 100% hydro SW not 27 hydro SO aka shortening which has a much lower saturation.

That Baker's Choice stuff is like a vegan butter replacement.  It can be sliced and rolled into layers of dough to make products like croissants.  You can't make a croissant out of candle wax anymore than you can make a croissant out of pure cocoa butter.  Its too hard.

BTW:  The reason I'm not letting this go, is I don't want new SW users to be turned off to the product because they received misinformation here.  I'm also hoping someone will validate (or invalidate) my calculations but our mathy/sciencey soapers probably aren't SW users.  If I'm wrong I'll admit it...but I don't think I am.


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## Steve85569 (Apr 3, 2019)

From the limited amount of research that I have been able to do regarding soy wax and MSDS for actual ingredients it appears that ALL soy wax contains some level of partially or non hydrogenated oil. OMG ! NOT

Soy bean oil will still be made into soap and the SAP values are close enough that unless I am making a 5 ton batch the soap will be safe to use. The change in properties of the finished soap will either be what I am looking for or I'll try a different blend. There are currently 3 blends curing one even used 444 ( which by the way uses the same MSDS as 415).

Seems to me to be much ado about very little if not nothing.
So far I like the hardness SW adds but I am looking for a blend that produces a mild enough soap that my old hide will agree.

Soap on!!


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## Andrew (Apr 3, 2019)

Dean said:


> I use soapee.
> 
> I respectfully disagree with u.... 27 and 415 are not the same.  27 is a shortening for commercial baking.  It is harder than crisco and comes in a block that can be cut...not scooped.  I highly doubt 415 can be cut after its been melted, poured into a block mold and cooled.



I use quite a bit of soy wax for my business and have fatty acid break downs of most of the soy waxes commonly used for soap making.  Here is the main issue with using candle wax in soap: you do not know the exact fatty acid make up and have to approximate it in a calculator.  Whatever you use in the calculator, the saponification value is approximately 192.

Going off of my phone calls with Golden Brands reps,  I can definitely can say that 415 is very close to the fatty acid make up of 27% hydrogenated oil with a slightly higher hydrogenation % to about 30 (previously stated above).   Is it exact? no.  Is it the closest option in a lye calculator? yes.  The only important factor is that the two have a similar fatty acid make up so your calculator will be as accurate as possible for the different fatty acid percentages.  The intended use is irrelevant.  In fact, soy wax is manufactured for candles, food, and industry (mainly lubricants) so you will of course have food shortening in the calculator.  

In addition, many candle waxes have been interesterified so the melting point and how hard the material is does NOT reflect the fatty acids.  So you can buy multiple waxes with different melting points that make different candles, that make the chemically same soap.


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## lenarenee (Apr 3, 2019)

earlene said:


> That is interesting.  In 2008, you could apparently still buy 27% hydrogenated soybean oil shortening at Sam's Club.  https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/difference-between-crisco-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/
> 
> That is not the case anymore.  So much research and the banning of trans-fats in so many places has eliminated this product from the marketplace as far as I can find.  But then I have never looked for it before.
> 
> Dean, it (27% hyrdrogenated soy shortening) still available anywhere where you live?  If it is, please share more information like, brand, etc.  If I could find some, I'd be willing to do some experimental soap making comparisons.  If we can't find any there is no way I can think of to do a comparison test, though.




I believe it's (as of 2017) illegal to product hydrogenated soy (fats) for human consumption in the US. It's why the candle industry had such a problem recently with very inconsistent wax batches, entire lines of wax disappearing and being replaced by strange new versions. Last time I heard, at least one manufacturer was producing hydrogenated non-food grade soy.


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## Dean (Apr 3, 2019)

Andrew said:


> I use quite a bit of soy wax for my business and have fatty acid break downs of most of the soy waxes commonly used for soap making.  Here is the main issue with using candle wax in soap: you do not know the exact fatty acid make up and have to approximate it in a calculator.  Whatever you use in the calculator, the saponification value is approximately 192.
> 
> Going off of my phone calls with Golden Brands reps,  I can definitely can say that 415 is very close to the fatty acid make up of 27% hydrogenated oil with a slightly higher hydrogenation % to about 30 (previously stated above).   Is it exact? no.  Is it the closest option in a lye calculator? yes.  The only important factor is that the two have a similar fatty acid make up so your calculator will be as accurate as possible for the different fatty acid percentages.  The intended use is irrelevant.  In fact, soy wax is manufactured for candles, food, and industry (mainly lubricants) so you will of course have food shortening in the calculator.
> 
> In addition, many candle waxes have been interesterified so the melting point and how hard the material is does NOT reflect the fatty acids.  So you can buy multiple waxes with different melting points that make different candles, that make the chemically same soap.



Crisco and 27 have almost identical hardness properties 24-25.  27 is soft like shortening therefore is not a hard soy wax, which 415 is.

Please post Golden Brand's document that identifies 415's fatty acid profile.



earlene said:


> That is interesting.  In 2008, you could apparently still buy 27% hydrogenated soybean oil shortening at Sam's Club.  https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/difference-between-crisco-and-27-hydrog-soybean-oil.5858/
> 
> That is not the case anymore.  So much research and the banning of trans-fats in so many places has eliminated this product from the marketplace as far as I can find.  But then I have never looked for it before.
> 
> ...



I found this...

https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Soybean-Oil-(hydrogenated).html

I've requested details.


----------



## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

Thank


Dean said:


> I found this...
> 
> https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Soybean-Oil-(hydrogenated).html
> 
> I've requested details.




Thank you, Dean.  Too bad the MMS lye calculator doesn't include fatty acid information!  They only list one soybean wax and the link on the calculator doesn't actually take you to that product, although it is on the page it does take you to.  So is it soy wax or not?  Awaiting to hear their reply with details on this product!  Is it fully hydrogenated or not, etc.

Anyway I heard back from Dave at Chemol and he said they don't sell for distribution, but to look into products by Cargill or AAK.  I haven't looked yet.  Not sure who AAK even is.  Just letters to me.

Edit:  I sent a request for more info from Cargill and am currently purusing AAK's website.  This page is interesting: https://aak.com/search/?q=hydrogenated+soy+wax

So I sent a message to AAK as well.  It looks like they are a Co-Development company for Golden Wax.


----------



## Dean (Apr 3, 2019)

earlene said:


> Thank
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, Dean.  Too bad the MMS lye calculator doesn't include fatty acid information!  They only list one soybean wax and the link on the calculator doesn't actually take you to that product, although it is on the page it does take you to.  So is it soy wax or not?  Awaiting to hear their reply with details on this product!  Is it fully hydrogenated or not, etc.



I noticed that too.  I only asked the company for the saturation and hydrogenation percentages.


----------



## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

Incidentally, for *Dawni*:  I read that AAK (and also Cargill) are expanding manufacturing to the Phillipines, so maybe you might be able to find a souce for GW 415 sooner rather than later.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 3, 2019)

Dean said:


> Crisco and 27 have almost identical hardness properties 24-25.  27 is soft like shortening therefore is not a hard soy wax, which 415 is.
> 
> Please post Golden Brand's document that identifies 415's fatty acid profile.





Dean said:


> I noticed that too.  I only asked the company for the saturation and hydrogenation percentages.



It is clear to me at this point that you just want to argue.  I, however, have done my homework and have used all of these waxes in test batches.  The most important factor for using soy wax (or any oil) is the SAP value which does not change in the hydrogenation process.  Although I am assuming your comments really are about linoleic%, I am unsure.

Please read my previous comments about approximation and interestification as that was my entire point about the differences in hardness properties in waxes.   This is apparently something you skipped over. 

% hydrogenation and fatty acid make up are proprietary information and AAK will not be willing tell you.  They may break it down by saturated/monosaturated/etc makeup, but they will not give you more information than I already have.  

I would also advise against using shortening for the food industry since it commonly has citric acid which messes with lye discount %.  Although Jedwards International knows how much may be in their butters, you will have difficulty getting that information from a food supplier.


----------



## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

Dean said:


> I noticed that too.  I only asked the company for the saturation and hydrogenation percentages.



I asked for more.  I promise to share here, what they share with me.

*Andrew*, thank you for sharing what you have shared.  I appreciate that. I notice you seem to have a successful soapmaking business.  You certainly do and have put a lot of time and effort into the research.  Not all of us here are as chemically inclined as you and some of the others may be.  Not all of us can or are inclined to call all our vendors.  And not all of us are inclined toward a soap making business.  But I believe all of us are inclined toward making the best soap possible given our circumstances.

Although I don't make a lot of soap with shortening made for the food industry, I have done and so do many soap makers.  Some like it as an ingredient, some are indifferent, and some don't like it.  But it's really quite common as an ingredient.  Some shortenings do contain citric acid, some contain BHT, but since both can be used in soap anyway, for the smaller batches often made by home-made soapmakers, I don't think the amount is such that it creates any huge concern.  After all, the ranges given for lye purity and saponification values and the SF factored in via the lye calculators create a certain buffer as well, depending on how much we manipulate those values ourselves.  But for the commercial and artisan soapmakers who may prefer more accuracy, it may because it is presents an unknown variable.

Still, I am interested in what you have learned about the fatty acid profiles of GW 415.  I did request that information from AAK myself just now and do hope they share that information with me.  If they do, I will post it here, of course, because why should every soapmaker have to contact their suppliers one at a time to get the same information?  I think it would be nice if they just provided it to be readily accessible online, but they don't all do that.  I don't accept the argument that it's proprietary.  If they suggest it be used in soap or sell it for the purpose of being used in making soap, the pertinent information should be provided.  So people asking here certainly seems reasonable and sharing in the interest of sharing information to be helpful is part of what we do here at SMF.


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## Dean (Apr 3, 2019)

Andrew said:


> It is clear to me at this point that you just want to argue.  I, however, have done my homework and have used all of these waxes in test batches.  The most important factor for using soy wax (or any oil) is the SAP value which does not change in the hydrogenation process.  Although I am assuming your comments really are about linoleic%, I am unsure.
> 
> Please read my previous comments about approximation and interestification as that was my entire point about the differences in hardness properties in waxes.   This is apparently something you skipped over.
> 
> ...



You are correct that 415 SW is partially hydrogenated and you are correct about the similar SAP.   However 415 and 27 do not have similar saturation, fatty acid profiles or soap properties.

If someone normally soaps with palm and the recipe has a hardness of 50 and they want to substitute 415 for palm and they use 27 hydro in the calc as you suggest, they can never get the calc to reflect a hardness of 50 because a  100% 27 hydro soap has a hardness of only 24.  This may not be problem for a soaper who uses calcs just for lye, but its a problem for those that use the calcs as guides for recipe formulation.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 3, 2019)

If you all would care to go back to my original post when starting this thread - you will see that I didn't want to get into arguments.  I know that online forums (I've been on a few different ones - not soap making ones) are prone to arguments as some individuals like to flaunt their knowledge and be king of the castle.
Hey - I'm just here to share soap-making questions with other soap makers. Whilst I am interested in the chemistry perspective to a degree ( enough for me to pursue the knowledge I need to make soap) I have no desire to go into intricate details and prove someone right or wrong.  
I use 100% hydrogenated soy wax.  I use an online soap calculator ( a couple of them in fact).  I make soap, and it works!  I make quite nice soap actually.
Whilst all this 'know-it-all' behaviour has been going on, we have possibly scared off a number of people who might have been interested in using soy wax and finding out how to soap with it.  Now - they've been blown away by all this facts and figures stuff and have probably wandered off to the palm oil camp because people are not arguing over there.
We were all getting along reasonably swimmingly until a new member that I've never heard of before (granted, probably not as new as me, but definitely less active and well-known) comes in and starts spouting chemistry knowledge.  I would thank you to take your 'need to be right' and 'I know more than you' attitude elsewhere.
A think a lesson for everyone is that it's not necessarily what you say, but how you say it, that can cause disharmony. 
Let's get back to soaping.


----------



## Steve85569 (Apr 3, 2019)

I'll just use soy wax for candles so I don't have to worry about not being highbrow enough.


----------



## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

*KiwiMoose*, I am sorry we got off track.

So where do you purchase your soy wax?  What brand is it?  Part of what we were discussing was it being so hard to find here in the US.  The 100% hydrogenated soy wax.  I really am interested in doing some comparison tests on it to what I currently use, which is Golden Wax 415, which is all that has ever been recommended to me since I started soapmaking.  And using the fully hydrogenated setting in my lye calculator (Soapee, usually) is what was recommended as well.  And it has been working very well for me, too.

I suppose sourcing our soy wax is one of the issues around soy wax, but it shouldn't be a huge debate, rather information sharing, right?


----------



## Dean (Apr 3, 2019)

Back to our regular programming...

I mentioned I made my mom some unscented soap.  It came out low in the mold.  I wasn’t sure if it was cuz of the lack of EO or mismeasurement.  Anyway I showered with it while there.  It had a diff feel than normal...not sure how to describe it...like it had a drag.  Is this what is called waxy?  It didnt have more SW than normal.  U think it was mismeasurement...her water...a combo...something else?


----------



## Dawni (Apr 3, 2019)

Steve85569 said:


> There are currently 3 blends curing one even used 444 ( which by the way uses the same MSDS as 415).
> 
> Seems to me to be much ado about very little if not nothing.


My soy wax is taking time to arrive so I'm patiently waiting for it, or your soap to cure lol whichever comes first. 


earlene said:


> Incidentally, for *Dawni*:  I read that AAK (and also Cargill) are expanding manufacturing to the Phillipines, so maybe you might be able to find a souce for GW 415 sooner rather than later.


Ah coolness. And, more businesses, double cool  


Dean said:


> Back to our regular programming...
> 
> I mentioned I made my mom some unscented soap.  It came out low in the mold.  I wasn’t sure if it was cuz of the lack of EO or mismeasurement.  Anyway I showered with it while there.  It had a diff feel than normal...not sure how to describe it...like it had a drag.  Is this what is called waxy?  It didnt have more SW than normal.  U think it was mismeasurement...her water...a combo...something else?


What do you mean by "it came out low in the mold?"

Also, the drag could be coz of the water. I'm not sure about soy, but my one beeswax soap that my sister loves feels different here compared to her place according to her. Neither of us has hard water but I'm betting one place has it softer than the other.

Could also be a combo with something else that I can't figure right now lol I'm still trying to digest the last few pages here lol


----------



## Steve85569 (Apr 3, 2019)

Dawni,
I tried an end cut of the 444 tonight. Lots of suds!!
I'll need to look at the recipe in the morning. If you would like it I'll post it.
I made the same recipe with 415 and I''l test an end cut on it tomorrow too.


----------



## Dawni (Apr 3, 2019)

Steve85569 said:


> Dawni,
> I tried an end cut of the 444 tonight. Lots of suds!!
> I'll need to look at the recipe in the morning. If you would like it I'll post it.
> I made the same recipe with 415 and I''l test an end cut on it tomorrow too.


Yes, please.. It would give me a starting point. I'm glad to know it, at the very least, works


----------



## Steve85569 (Apr 3, 2019)

I did notice today that Soapcalc now lists soy wax 27.5 as well as soy wax. I did however forget to look at the SAP value.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 4, 2019)

Dean said:


> Back to our regular programming...
> 
> I mentioned I made my mom some unscented soap.  It came out low in the mold.  I wasn’t sure if it was cuz of the lack of EO or mismeasurement.  Anyway I showered with it while there.  It had a diff feel than normal...not sure how to describe it...like it had a drag.  Is this what is called waxy?  It didnt have more SW than normal.  U think it was mismeasurement...her water...a combo...something else?


@KiwiSoap has mentioned this to me too.  I wonder if it's to do with the water?  We don't have hard water here ( in Hamilton)


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## KiwiSoap (Apr 4, 2019)

Yes, I've made two batches of @KiwiMoose's Soy Wax soap and I've started using a mini-bar of one which is two weeks old now, just for hand washing. It makes a really nice lather, lots of small bubbles, and feels nice but after rinsing it off I thought there was some residue or something that made it feel grippy, or as Dean says, draggy. I've only tested faux seawater Castille otherwise which is young as well and did not leave that feeling.

I made the SW soap with 4% superfat, I thought I'd read a suggestion that a lower SF was better. I think the water here is soft, though it is currently chlorinated. Will see how the soap develops


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## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2019)

Dean said:


> Back to our regular programming...
> 
> I mentioned I made my mom some unscented soap.  It came out low in the mold.  I wasn’t sure if it was cuz of the lack of EO or mismeasurement.  Anyway I showered with it while there.  It had a diff feel than normal...not sure how to describe it...like it had a drag.  Is this what is called waxy?  It didnt have more SW than normal.  U think it was mismeasurement...her water...a combo...something else?


How much lower in the mold? 100 ml of EO isn’t going to make a big difference in the height of the soap.


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## earlene (Apr 4, 2019)

Dean said:


> Back to our regular programming...
> 
> I mentioned I made my mom some unscented soap.  It came out low in the mold.  I wasn’t sure if it was cuz of the lack of EO or mismeasurement.  Anyway I showered with it while there.  It had a diff feel than normal...not sure how to describe it...like it had a drag.  Is this what is called waxy?  It didnt have more SW than normal.  U think it was mismeasurement...her water...a combo...something else?



If the recipe is the same that you use for your own SW soap, then wouldn't the only difference be the water with which you showered?  Or, as you said possibly a measurement error when you made the soap.

I know what a drag feels like to me.  Too much lanolin in soap gives a drag as well, so I am guessing that you were feeling the same thing.  I haven't noticed it with my SW soap though, so I guess I've been okay on the percentage I am using, which is 30%.  I will try a higher percentage at one point, but haven't yet.

Do you know if the water in your mom's house is softer or harder than the water at your house?  Do either of you use a water softener?  Our water changes if our water softener runs out of salt.  We notice a real change in how soap rinses off if that happens.


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## Lin19687 (Apr 4, 2019)

Dean with out listing the recipe and how old the soap is, again we can't tell you exactly what went wrong.  And water can play a big roll so we would need to know that too.
@amd don't you have hard water?  how much does that play a roll ?


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## Andrew (Apr 4, 2019)

Steve85569 said:


> I did notice today that Soapcalc now lists soy wax 27.5 as well as soy wax. I did however forget to look at the SAP value.


SAP value does not change with hydrogenation so it should stay around 192 no matter which blend you are using.



lenarenee said:


> I believe it's (as of 2017) illegal to product hydrogenated soy (fats) for human consumption in the US. It's why the candle industry had such a problem recently with very inconsistent wax batches, entire lines of wax disappearing and being replaced by strange new versions. Last time I heard, at least one manufacturer was producing hydrogenated non-food grade soy.



some food producers are now not allowed to use trans fats.  Fully hydrogenated soy has no trans fats in it.  Alot of the industry is for industrial uses as well so there is still a solid market for the products.


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## Dean (Apr 4, 2019)

Dawni said:


> What do you mean by "it came out low in the mold?"



Less batter than normal.



penelopejane said:


> How much lower in the mold? 100 ml of EO isn’t going to make a big difference in the height of the soap.



It was just a two bar batch in cavities.  One bar was bout 1/4 inch low.



earlene said:


> If the recipe is the same that you use for your own SW soap, then wouldn't the only difference be the water with which you showered?



The recipie was the same cept no carrot juice for color or EO.  I did use zeawater but Ive used it b4 and didn’t notice drag.



earlene said:


> Do you know if the water in your mom's house is softer or harder than the water at your house? Do either of you use a water softener?



We live in apts.  I don’t think I have a softener. Her apt is brand new and might.  Do apts ever have softeners?

Next time I visit her, Ill bring my own bar and then Ill kno if its the water.  If its the water causing the drag I wonder if its the SW interacting with it.  I do use alot of SW...40.  Going up to 50 this weekend!


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## Andrew (Apr 4, 2019)

Dean said:


> You are correct that 415 SW is partially hydrogenated and you are correct about the similar SAP.   However 415 and 27 do not have similar saturation, fatty acid profiles or soap properties.
> 
> If someone normally soaps with palm and the recipe has a hardness of 50 and they want to substitute 415 for palm and they use 27 hydro in the calc as you suggest, they can never get the calc to reflect a hardness of 50 because a  100% 27 hydro soap has a hardness of only 24.  This may not be problem for a soaper who uses calcs just for lye, but its a problem for those that use the calcs as guides for recipe formulation.



if you look at olive oil in a soap calculator it measures as extremely soft but castile soap is rock hard.  The same concept applies to candle wax.  This is a very considerable error in the calculators that will throw off your assumptions if you are not aware of it.


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## amd (Apr 4, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> @amd don't you have hard water? how much does that play a roll ?


Yep, we have hard water (I think it's around 9) Rinse off is hard, I notice more of a difference between vegan soaps and non-vegan soaps. The vegan soaps are usually cleaner rinsing, I'm assuming it's because of a lower stearic or lower cleansing number. I'm using a castile in the shower at the moment and it rinses so much better than anything I've used before. Not having used a soy wax or knowing the profile, I don't know if the residue waxy feeling is just a normal result of using it with hard water or the nature of using a wax soap. I'm inclined to think the feel is always there just more noticeable with the hard water. But I'm no expert on hard water or soy wax soaps.  Just my two cents.


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## Andrew (Apr 4, 2019)

the only soap I have had drag with was a soap with added glycerin.  Since wax has more glycerin than a fat, the soy wax may be the culprit.  If it is hard water, you can always add 1% sodium citrate to increase lather and deal with hard water.


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## RDak (Apr 4, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> @KiwiSoap has mentioned this to me too.  I wonder if it's to do with the water?  We don't have hard water here ( in Hamilton)


Kiwi:  If you don't mind, please repeat what calculator you use for the soy wax you use.  (IIRC, you use 415 soy wax?)

I went back to see if you do use 20 percent soy wax in your recipes as I remembered it to make sure.

Do you use the Soapbee calculator and the "fully hydrogenated soybean oil" category when calculating the recipe?

Thanks for repeating this for me.


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## Lin19687 (Apr 4, 2019)

@amd  So did the 9 # of soap you got from me , hee hee, did it clean off well in the hard water?
I wonder since it is a Vegan soap.


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## amd (Apr 4, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> @amd So did the 9 # of soap you got from me , hee hee, did it clean off well in the hard water?
> I wonder since it is a Vegan soap.


Yep, rinses really nice! My hubby really likes it. He's a fan of vegan bars because of the clean rinse, probably explains why he likes salt bars so much too. Hmmm... I noticed that he is getting low on his personal salt bar stash. Should I scent that with TPM or his usual Ed Hardy dupe?


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## Lin19687 (Apr 4, 2019)

@amd well I have another 6 # of salt bars sitting here


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## penelopejane (Apr 4, 2019)

Dean said:


> Less batter than normal.
> 
> 
> 
> It was just a two bar batch in cavities.  One bar was bout 1/4 inch low.


To me it sounds like a mismeausre somewhere.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 4, 2019)

RDak said:


> Kiwi:  If you don't mind, please repeat what calculator you use for the soy wax you use.  (IIRC, you use 415 soy wax?)
> 
> I went back to see if you do use 20 percent soy wax in your recipes as I remembered it to make sure.
> 
> ...


Hi RDak - there are two Kiwis now, so you need to be specific 
I used Soap Calc up until recently and I have switched to the SMF's own calculator. I use the 'fully hydrogenated' option. Yes, I usually use 20% of soy wax 415.


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## Dean (Apr 4, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> there are two Kiwis now



Moose got herself cloned so she can soap twice as much.


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## kelly2019 (Apr 4, 2019)

how would you add soy wax in on the soap recipe calculator?   would the beeswax option work for soy wax?  I don't want to use 20%...but thought it might be nice to try since I have some on hand...I try to make a more moist bar for my daughter (eczema)



KiwiMoose said:


> Hi RDak - there are two Kiwis now, so you need to be specific
> I used Soap Calc up until recently and I have switched to the SMF's own calculator. I use the 'fully hydrogenated' option. Yes, I usually use 20% of soy wax 415.


 I just saw this after my question! oops.  Going to search for that calculator now!


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## KiwiSoap (Apr 4, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Hi RDak - there are two Kiwis now, so you need to be specific


Yeah, sorry about that, poor planning on my part  Everyone knows you're the better one! 



RDak said:


> Kiwi:  If you don't mind, please repeat what calculator you use for the soy wax you use.  (IIRC, you use 415 soy wax?)
> 
> I went back to see if you do use 20 percent soy wax in your recipes as I remembered it to make sure.
> 
> Do you use the Soapbee calculator and the "fully hydrogenated soybean oil" category when calculating the recipe?



I'm using Soapee (and double check with SoapCalc.net to be sure no typos). In my experience so far, they all come up with the same result so use whichever you prefer.
I think you'll find that both _Soy wax, fully hydrogenated_ or _Soybean, 27.5% hydrogenated_ have very similar SAP values so will give about the same NaOH weight, it is the recipe properties that differ.

I've just made soap with a different recipe, this time using 10% soy wax 415, will keep you all posted!


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## Andrew (Apr 4, 2019)

KiwiSoap said:


> Yeah, sorry about that, poor planning on my part  Everyone knows you're the better one!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


they all have the same sap value (193) as the hydrogenation process does not affect the saponification value.  the different options change the fatty acid profile.


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## RDak (Apr 5, 2019)

Thank you BOTH Kiwi's!!!


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## Dean (Apr 5, 2019)

50% SW batter in da mold!  I christian thee, Super Soy Wax Soap.  Go hard or go home!


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 5, 2019)




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## pmartin (Apr 6, 2019)

Andrew said:


> I use quite a bit of soy wax for my business and have fatty acid break downs of most of the soy waxes commonly used for soap making.  Here is the main issue with using candle wax in soap: you do not know the exact fatty acid make up and have to approximate it in a calculator.  Whatever you use in the calculator, the saponification value is approximately 192.
> 
> Going off of my phone calls with Golden Brands reps,  I can definitely can say that 415 is very close to the fatty acid make up of 27% hydrogenated oil with a slightly higher hydrogenation % to about 30 (previously stated above).   Is it exact? no.  Is it the closest option in a lye calculator? yes.  The only important factor is that the two have a similar fatty acid make up so your calculator will be as accurate as possible for the different fatty acid percentages.  The intended use is irrelevant.  In fact, soy wax is manufactured for candles, food, and industry (mainly lubricants) so you will of course have food shortening in the calculator.
> 
> In addition, many candle waxes have been interesterified so the melting point and how hard the material is does NOT reflect the fatty acids.  So you can buy multiple waxes with different melting points that make different candles, that make the chemically same soap.



Thank you very much Andrew for your contributions to this thread! I found your posts very informative. I’ve used  GW 415 a couple of times thinking it was fully hydrogenated and was curious why the results were unexpected.


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## KiwiSoap (Apr 6, 2019)

I'll echo the thanks to Andrew as well, you've helped shed light on this product we're continuing to learn about! And thanks to all contributing to the discussion, this sharing of knowledge helps us all.


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## Steve85569 (Apr 6, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Yes, please.. It would give me a starting point. I'm glad to know it, at the very least, works



I'm slow but I do get back on ( squirrel!) topic.
Both 415 and 444 soaps lather and clean the same as far as I can tell. I did use different scents so the one with lemongrass EO may be just a little softer.

Recipe is 
30% lard
20% soy wax
15% olive oil
15% shea butter
15% coconut oil 5% castor oil
lye discount was 5% for these (SF)
I use a whopping 2% sodium citrate for my hard water as well (no play on words intended).
You are welcome to use or modify that recipe as you wish. It's just what I did for the experiment.

I am a little tempted to make a batch that's 100% soy and put wicks in it...


----------



## Dean (Apr 6, 2019)

Steve85569 said:


> I'm slow but I do get back on ( squirrel!) topic.
> Both 415 and 444 soaps lather and clean the same as far as I can tell. I did use different scents so the one with lemongrass EO may be just a little softer.
> 
> Recipe is
> ...



Ur recipie has the same hardness as my 50% SW bar!


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## lenarenee (Apr 6, 2019)

Has anyone found any organic non GMO soy wax yet?


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## Andrew (Apr 6, 2019)

lenarenee said:


> Has anyone found any organic non GMO soy wax yet?


as far as i know that is not in production.  It is also somewhat unnecessary as soy wax is washed and tested free of all DNA and other chemicals.  Glyophosphate also breaks down in water.


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## Dawni (Apr 8, 2019)

Steve85569 said:


> I'm slow but I do get back on ( squirrel!) topic.
> Both 415 and 444 soaps lather and clean the same as far as I can tell. I did use different scents so the one with lemongrass EO may be just a little softer.
> 
> Recipe is
> ...


Lol

Thank you for the recipe! I will try it first as a lard replacement as I promised someone a comparison.

My soy wax 444 was delivered today!


----------



## earlene (Apr 8, 2019)

Dean said:


> I found this...
> 
> https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Soybean-Oil-(hydrogenated).html
> 
> I've requested details.


Has MMS got back to you yet, Dean?

I don't like the MMS calculator because it doesn't give me any information about the soap properties and when I was new, those  ranges for water and SL were just too confusing.  Plus it doesn't allow for as many different oils as are available on some other lye calculators.  But that is beside the point.

I also don't purchase from them because they don't provide a link to any data sheets for many of their products.  I think that's a poor way to run a supplier business.  But if they have good customer service and provide requested information, I may re-think that.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 8, 2019)

earlene said:


> Has MMS got back to you yet, Dean?
> 
> I don't like the MMS calculator because it doesn't give me any information about the soap properties and when I was new, those  ranges for water and SL were just too confusing.  Plus it doesn't allow for as many different oils as are available on some other lye calculators.  But that is beside the point.
> 
> I also don't purchase from them because they don't provide a link to any data sheets for many of their products.  I think that's a poor way to run a supplier business.  But if they have good customer service and provide requested information, I may re-think that.



that is partially hydrogenated oil.  They had fully hydrogenated soy, but discontinued it last year because the manufacturer stopped making it and they could not source it.  I actually bought their last box and had a very nice conversation with a manager from their warehouse.


----------



## earlene (Apr 8, 2019)

Did they provide you with an SDS sheet on that product, Andrew?


----------



## Andrew (Apr 8, 2019)

COA and SDS.  COA basically had melting temp calculator and SDS is a normal SDS.  With the modifications to candle wax, I am unsure of exactly what their product is and I have not used it.  

The trick with soy wax is to find out what the IV and temp values are and whether or not it was interesterified.  Then you can look up the % hydrogenation and from that the fatty acid make up.  It is a bit of work


----------



## earlene (Apr 8, 2019)

Andrew since you don't sell any soap with soy wax listed as an ingredient (on your website), why do you say you use it so much in your business?  Just wondering.


----------



## Dawni (Apr 8, 2019)

I'm too lazy to hunt for it (too early in the morning lol) but is anyone nice enough to repeat it, if it's been posted before?

Has anyone used soy wax alone as their hardener, without palm, animal fats n nut butters, and to some extent, low coconut/babasu/pko, with only soft oils for the majority of the recipe?

I know one of KiwiMoose's recipes include at least Shea, and Steve's above combined it with lard... Just curious if it turned out as good as the recipes that had any of the above mentioned fats even at a smaller percentage.

As promised, I'm to compare how it is as a lard replacement, and that particular recipe of mine has only soft oils and 17% coconut only (once lard is removed)... I'm still gonna do it but was wondering what I should be looking forward to.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 9, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I'm too lazy to hunt for it (too early in the morning lol) but is anyone nice enough to repeat it, if it's been posted before?
> 
> Has anyone used soy wax alone as their hardener, without palm, animal fats n nut butters, and to some extent, low coconut/babasu/pko, with only soft oils for the majority of the recipe?
> 
> ...


I think maybe @Dean does?


----------



## earlene (Apr 9, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Has anyone used soy wax alone as their hardener, without palm, animal fats n nut butters, and to some extent, low coconut/babasu/pko, with only soft oils for the majority of the recipe?



The closest I've come to not using any other hardening oil in a soy wax soap is to use CO in the recipe.  One of these days I may try it without a lower or no CO, because I don't always use CO, but so far I have not made one with only Soy and the rest soft oils.

Saranac, from whom I took my lessons about using soy wax, uses some CO in her recipes, so I have not tried it without.  But I am open to experimentation.  And when I do run out of CO, and that has happened in the past, I have made soap without it.

If you want any links to discussions in which Saranac talks about her use of soywax in soap here are some good examples:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/practice-makes-perfect-disasters.63560/page-3
Start at post # 58 and read through on page 4 as well.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/for-the-love-of-soy-calling-all-soy-wax-soapers.68900/

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/palm-free.68838/#post-682881

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/replacing-palm-oil-for-recipe.67472/#post-676310

ETA:  The question to which I was responding.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 9, 2019)

earlene said:


> The closest I've come to not using any other hardening oil in a soy wax soap is to use CO in the recipe.  One of these days I may try it without a lower or no CO, because I don't always use CO, but so far I have not made one with only Soy and the rest soft oils.
> 
> Saranac, from whom I took my lessons about using soy wax, uses some CO in her recipes, so I have not tried it without.  But I am open to experimentation.  And when I do run out of CO, and that has happened in the past, I have made soap without it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that very interesting read @earlene - I could have done with that 6 months ago!  But I'm past all my experimentation now and happy with my recipe.  One thing I will mention is that in the first thread you have linked, it says that SW takes forever to come to trace, but I have not had that experience.  As far as I can tell - it takes as long as the oils/butters I used before turning to SW (not palm or animal fats). And I can say, it doesn't take long at all - maybe 3 minutes?
Another thing I will mention is that I've never taken my temps.  I'm working on pure guesstimates of temperatures - I reckon the oils and lye are in the vicinity of 35-38 degrees celsius ( approx 95-100f) when I mix them.
The thought of getting stearic spots scares me a bit.  At what point might they become evident?  I've got soap that is 4 months old with no stearic spots, does that mean I'm in the clear?  The stearic acid content in the FA profile of my standard recipe is 23.


----------



## dibbles (Apr 9, 2019)

@KiwiMoose stearic spots are visible right away.


----------



## Atihcnoc (Apr 9, 2019)

KiwiMoose.....finally yesterday I made your recipe, the used method was at room temperature. It was a big surprise for me as I expected to trace almost immediately and instead it was fluid and manageable. I stick blend just to emulsify, then with spatula and sometimes with stick blender but not continuously. I put it in the oven with light bulb on for 1 hour and did not gel. Unmold and cut after 18 hours, it was very soft to the cut, after 24 hours I cut one of the soaps and still soft. Tomorrow I will cut again one of the soaps after 48 hours to see how hard finally is.

I like it a lot, it's a very nice white color and it leave the hands silky but dry. I have to wait at least a week to try it again.

Thank you very much for sharing the recipe, at least I made a recipe with more quantity of soy wax with success.

This is the soap it is unscented as I want to try the recipe without additives, just make a small amount as it was a test, this time I used a   331 gms. mold.


----------



## earlene (Apr 9, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Thanks for that very interesting read @earlene - I could have done with that 6 months ago!  But I'm past all my experimentation now and happy with my recipe.  One thing I will mention is that in the first thread you have linked, it says that SW takes forever to come to trace, but I have not had that experience.  As far as I can tell - it takes as long as the oils/butters I used before turning to SW (not palm or animal fats). And I can say, it doesn't take long at all - maybe 3 minutes?
> Another thing I will mention is that I've never taken my temps.  I'm working on pure guesstimates of temperatures - I reckon the oils and lye are in the vicinity of 35-38 degrees celsius ( approx 95-100f) when I mix them.
> The thought of getting stearic spots scares me a bit.  At what point might they become evident?  I've got soap that is 4 months old with no stearic spots, does that mean I'm in the clear?  The stearic acid content in the FA profile of my standard recipe is 23.




Sorry, I left out the quote from Dawni, the question to which I was responding.

Now regarding your comments.

No, I don't find it takes forever to come to trace.  One of those links, one of the soapers said in her recipe with 20% soy wax, it took 5-10 minutes to come to trace, and another soaper said at lower percentages it didn't come to trace quickly.  But saranac said with a SB it traces fairly quickly for her.  I find the same as saranac.  But it depends on the rest of the recipe and how vigorously one uses or does't use the SB.  But that is true for all recipes, right?

Stearic spots question was already answered by dibbles.  I don't recall if I've had them come up later, although I have had shea turn grainy later.  But never had the soy wax turn weird later.


----------



## lenarenee (Apr 9, 2019)

Andrew said:


> as far as i know that is not in production.  It is also somewhat unnecessary as soy wax is washed and tested free of all DNA and other chemicals.  Glyophosphate also breaks down in water.



Good to know about the Glyphosphate. But how is DNA washed away?  I'm also curious how as to your sources of info. And thank you very much!


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 10, 2019)

Atihcnoc said:


> *KiwiMoose*.....finally yesterday I made your recipe, the used method was at room temperature. It was a big surprise for me as I expected to trace almost immediately and instead it was fluid and manageable. I stick blend just to emulsify, then with spatula and sometimes with stick blender but not continuously. I put it in the oven with light bulb on for 1 hour and did not gel. Unmold and cut after 18 hours, it was very soft to the cut, after 24 hours I cut one of the soaps and still soft. Tomorrow I will cut again one of the soaps after 48 hours to see how hard finally is.
> 
> I like it a lot, it's a very nice white color and it leave the hands silky but dry. I have to wait at least a week to try it again.
> 
> ...


Wow!  It is so white!  Mine is never that white upon unmolding - although I did notice the soap in the spare bathroom had gone whiter with age (now almost 5 months old).
Very pleased that the recipe worked well for you.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 10, 2019)

earlene said:


> Andrew since you don't sell any soap with soy wax listed as an ingredient (on your website), why do you say you use it so much in your business?  Just wondering.


It is there.


lenarenee said:


> Good to know about the Glyphosphate. But how is DNA washed away?  I'm also curious how as to your sources of info. And thank you very much!


here
https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/the-best-wet-shaving-soap-recipe/

and here
http://www.aussiecandlesupplies.com.au/media/msds/GMO_Letter.pdf


----------



## penelopejane (Apr 10, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Thanks for that very interesting read @earlene - I could have done with that 6 months ago!  But I'm past all my experimentation now and happy with my recipe.  One thing I will mention is that in the first thread you have linked, it says that SW takes forever to come to trace, but I have not had that experience.  As far as I can tell - it takes as long as the oils/butters I used before turning to SW (not palm or animal fats). And I can say, it doesn't take long at all - maybe 3 minutes?
> Another thing I will mention is that I've never taken my temps.  I'm working on pure guesstimates of temperatures - I reckon the oils and lye are in the vicinity of 35-38 degrees celsius ( approx 95-100f) when I mix them.
> The thought of getting stearic spots scares me a bit.  At what point might they become evident?  I've got soap that is 4 months old with no stearic spots, does that mean I'm in the clear?  The stearic acid content in the FA profile of my standard recipe is 23.


I think your green soap has stearic spots or stearic swirls.


----------



## earlene (Apr 11, 2019)

Andrew said:


> It is there.



It wasn't there the last two times and looked and still not there today, so I don't think so.  

Unless you don't list it in your ingredients list, none of the soaps on your site (I looked at every one of them) include soy wax in the ingredient list on your website.  

Examples of most of your ingredient lists (straight from your website):

- Ingredients: Saponified cocoa butter, kokum butter mango butter, shea butter, castor oil, jojoba oil, palm free stearic acid, sodium lactate, essential oils, tussah silk

- Ingredients: Saponified Olive Oil, Water 

 - Ingredients: Saponified Oils of Olive, Coconut, Shea, Castor, Water, Essential Oils, Sodium Lactate 

 - Ingredients: Saponified cocoa butter, kokum butter mango butter, shea butter, castor oil, jojoba oil, palm free stearic acid, essential oils, sodium lactate, tussah silk

- Ingredients: Saponified cocoa butter, kokum butter mango butter, shea butter, castor oil, jojoba oil, palm free stearic acid, fragrance oils, sodium lactate, tussah silk

Body Balm:  Ingredients: Mango Butter, Shea Butter, Argan Oil, Jojoba oil, Beeswax, Vitamin E, Essential Oils

- Ingredients: Water, glycerin, Saponified Oils of Olive, Coconut, Castor, Sunflower, Essential Oils, Vitamin E, Citric Acid

I don't see soy wax in any of them, so if you are using it, are you not listing it?


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 11, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> I think your green soap has stearic spots or stearic swirls.


The green one I made in the tube - yes I think it has.  I always thought they were little clumps of rice flour, since I put some of that in it.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 11, 2019)

earlene said:


> It wasn't there the last two times and looked and still not there today, so I don't think so.
> 
> Unless you don't list it in your ingredients list, none of the soaps on your site (I looked at every one of them) include soy wax in the ingredient list on your website.
> 
> ...



I will not discuss my recipes in a thread about soaping various types of soy wax.  My recipes are both proprietary and properly labeled.  Any further questions can be asked in a private setting.


----------



## Dawni (Apr 11, 2019)

Andrew said:


> soapee's calculator has soy wax at 27% hydrogenated.  that is pretty close to 415's 30% if i remember correctly


@Andrew would you know if it will be similar for the 444 as well?

I know you've said SAP value was same for all soy wax, but I was wondering in terms of properties...


----------



## earlene (Apr 12, 2019)

No further questions, Andrew.  Thank you for your answers.

Now, I intend to abide by KiwiMoose's request in post # 219, and get back to discussing soap made with soy wax as an ingredient and how it works for me based on my own experience.


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## Lin19687 (Apr 12, 2019)

For those that want to use Soy and Soy Wax.
There are Many people that will not use anything with Soy.

There are also many people that see the word WAX and don't want that in soap either.

just an fyi.


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## Andrew (Apr 12, 2019)

Dawni said:


> @Andrew would you know if it will be similar for the 444 as well?
> 
> I know you've said SAP value was same for all soy wax, but I was wondering in terms of properties...


Going off the melting and iodine values, it looks like 444 and 415 are the same except 444 has monoglycerides as an emulsifier.


----------



## earlene (Apr 12, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> For those that want to use Soy and Soy Wax.
> There are Many people that will not use anything with Soy.
> 
> There are also many people that see the word WAX and don't want that in soap either.
> ...




Yes, that is true, Lin.  One of the conundrums of making soap, right?  Finding ingredients that make a good soap that everyone we know will want to use; there will always be some who won't want one thing or another.  But of course it is a good reminder that soy isn't well thought of by some folks, just as palm isn't and just as animal fats are not.  Still, some folks don't care at all, so long as it's soap.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 12, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> For those that want to use Soy and Soy Wax.
> There are Many people that will not use anything with Soy.
> 
> There are also many people that see the word WAX and don't want that in soap either.
> ...


I know in New Zealand that soy or soy wax is not an issue for most people.  In fact most vegetarians/vegans I know look to soy as their main source of alternative protein. I suspect it is similar in Aussie and perhaps the UK - though not entirely sure.  Soy milk is regularly sold as a dairy alternative in both coffee shops and supermarkets.  There has been in increase in alternative milks over the past decade, including almond, coconut, oat etc, but soy remains the main alternative.
I do recall when I was in the USA some 10 years ago, it was very hard to find soy milk ( my son who was only a year old at the time is allergic to dairy and nuts) and there was an over-abundance of nut milks which were unsuitable ( he's even MORE allergic to nuts that dairy) - perhaps reflecting the anti-soy movement in the USA.
However, this thread is for people to discuss the use of SW in soap, not whether or not people like it or not.


----------



## Rune (Apr 13, 2019)

Hi!

I'm not using soy wax, but am about to hit the "buy" button at New Directions UK. But, I have no idea if that soy wax behaves well. As I understand, there are many different types of soy wax out there. 

I wonder, have any used this wax in soap?

https://newdirectionsuk.com/products/soya-wax-cosmetic-waxes?variant=7691169005626

I know I make things difficult by wanting to buy a soy wax from a company that have next to nothing information about it. The only reason is because I want to buy some other oils and butters from New Directions UK or Europe (I think the UK site is the European site). But of course, I can find another supplier of soy way. 

But what type of soy wax should I buy? What kind do you in this thread use?


----------



## Dawni (Apr 13, 2019)

Rune said:


> Hi!
> 
> I'm not using soy wax, but am about to hit the "buy" button at New Directions UK. But, I have no idea if that soy wax behaves well. As I understand, there are many different types of soy wax out there.
> 
> ...


It's worth reading back Rune... There's info to help you figure out what wax you're looking at if it isn't labeled clearly online. 

Most have uses 415 which is labeled as 100% pure soy wax. A couple of us have tried the 444, which is labeled as 98% soy wax and 2% soy based additive. It seems to work, if you can't find pure, like me.

I soaped with it yesterday, will be posting results soon as I take proper pics.


----------



## Rune (Apr 13, 2019)

Thank you @Dawni 

Now I understand way better. I just got confused when I saw all sorts of soy wax, container blends, pillar blend, C3, C5 and what not.

The soy wax from New Directions says "100% pure and natural" on the packet. That must mean no additives.
Also, in one of the documents, it says "INCI name: Hydrogenated vegetable oil". That must mean 100% hydrogenated.

So, it seems that the soy wax they have is just right. They don't have any other, just one type. It is not expensive, so I will go ahead and buy it. And I have to pay shipping from them anyway.

Thank you again


----------



## lsg (Apr 13, 2019)

Andrew said:


> It is clear to me at this point that you just want to argue.  I, however, have done my homework and have used all of these waxes in test batches.  The most important factor for using soy wax (or any oil) is the SAP value which does not change in the hydrogenation process.  Although I am assuming your comments really are about linoleic%, I am unsure.
> 
> Please read my previous comments about approximation and interestification as that was my entire point about the differences in hardness properties in waxes.   This is apparently something you skipped over.
> 
> ...


I have used Crisco and GV shortening many times in soapmaking with no problems.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 13, 2019)

lsg said:


> I have used Crisco and GV shortening many times in soapmaking with not problems.


The interesting thing about crisco is the removal of trans fats.  While it makes a solid soap soap ingredient (I have used it personally as well), it has been reformulated to not include any hydrogenated soy and is does not really have a similar fatty acid makeup.  It does not include any trans fats, which is definitely good, but has palm as a substantial % of the ingredients.  Just something for people to keep in mind if you are trying to avoid palm.


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## Rune (Apr 13, 2019)

I have just now ordered 2 kilos of soy wax and 1 kilo of rapeseed wax (have to test that too, but what is its sap. value?) and some castor, just because. When everything arrives, it will be soy wax soap! Jippi! And if it thickens like crazy before I can get it in the mold, I will immediately book a flight to New Zealand, sneak outside a certain house and see if I can catch KiwiMoose in cheating to get such fluid batters


----------



## Andrew (Apr 13, 2019)

rapeseed is canola oil.  SAP is 175


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 13, 2019)

Rune said:


> I have just now ordered 2 kilos of soy wax and 1 kilo of rapeseed wax (have to test that too, but what is its sap. value?) and some castor, just because. When everything arrives, it will be soy wax soap! Jippi! And if it thickens like crazy before I can get it in the mold, I will immediately book a flight to New Zealand, sneak outside a certain house and see if I can catch KiwiMoose in cheating to get such fluid batters


Ha ha Rune.  My nephew lives in Norway - he has won awards for brewing very good ginger beer!


----------



## penelopejane (Apr 13, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> I think your green soap has stearic spots or stearic swirls.





KiwiMoose said:


> The green one I made in the tube - yes I think it has.  I always thought they were little clumps of rice flour, since I put some of that in it.



I was referring to this soap:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shes-a-little-bit-crumbly.74598/#post-763116


----------



## Rune (Apr 13, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Ha ha Rune.  My nephew lives in Norway - he has won awards for brewing very good ginger beer!



Guess what, I found him! I am quite good at research, I must say, but had to really work hard to be able to find him with just a little piece of information. He is very cute, if it is him in the middle, just like his aunt! 

https://www.vest24.no/trioen-flytter-til-fedje-for-a-leve-av-ol-og-whisky/s/5-82-12418

He is in the west and I'm in the north. Right outside the town of Narvik (10 minutes drive) in the northernmost part of Nordland county. Probably just as close to the north pole as you are to the south pole. 

I have seen on TV that parts of New Zealand looks just like Norway. I will find out where.... South-Island. But I see now it does look way more tropical than here. But otherwise very similar. So maybe you are not so close to the south pole as I though.

Thank you for the comment on the other thread about NatureWax C3. I was really glad to hear from a soy wax expert that it looked fine  Otherwise I would have to learn how to make candles to be able to use it up. When the wax arrives, I actually have supplies enough to start making soap again, with a new recipe. It can't behave worse than the old recipe anyway, so it will be a step forward.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 13, 2019)

Gosh - he _is _cute. But its not him!  Here he is:https://www.lierposten.no/lokal-mat...4jTsTOlcFjdfXu2GGzqUH9YHsxMin0IoiAJ7BDJZtSnDQ


----------



## Dawni (Apr 13, 2019)

I've posted the lard vs. soy wax experiment, @RDak and others. Head on over here if you're interested


----------



## Rune (Apr 14, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Gosh - he _is _cute. But its not him!  Here he is:https://www.lierposten.no/lokal-mat...4jTsTOlcFjdfXu2GGzqUH9YHsxMin0IoiAJ7BDJZtSnDQ



He is cute too. I was 200% sure I had found the right one, since we have almost nobody from New Zealand here, and when the one I found was making beer, then I couldn't possibly be anybody else. No wonder we have few Newzealenders here, since it is the furthest away you possibly can get. I guess he have to win the lottery to travel home for christmas. I will have to look out for his beer and taste some, if I can find it. But perhaps it is only sold locally. That is often the case when it comes to smaller breweries.

If you come to visit him, you should know that this country is not so ugly as where he live. Or well, the towns are ugly many (most) places, but the landscape is most often breathtaking. But definately not in the south-east where he is situated, where it is just depressing and dull. You have to travel north or west.


----------



## penelopejane (Apr 14, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> The green one I made in the tube - yes I think it has.  I always thought they were little clumps of rice flour, since I put some of that in it.





Rune said:


> Thank you @Dawni
> 
> Now I understand way better. I just got confused when I saw all sorts of soy wax, container blends, pillar blend, C3, C5 and what not.
> 
> ...


It is 100% soy wax but it’s not 100% hydrogenated.
They will definitely state in the info if it is 100% hydrogenated.


----------



## penelopejane (Apr 14, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I know in New Zealand that soy or soy wax is not an issue for most people.  In fact most vegetarians/vegans I know look to soy as their main source of alternative protein. I suspect it is similar in Aussie and perhaps the UK - though not entirely sure.  Soy milk is regularly sold as a dairy alternative in both coffee shops and supermarkets.  There has been in increase in alternative milks over the past decade, including almond, coconut, oat etc, but soy remains the main alternative.
> I do recall when I was in the USA some 10 years ago, it was very hard to find soy milk ( my son who was only a year old at the time is allergic to dairy and nuts) and there was an over-abundance of nut milks which were unsuitable ( he's even MORE allergic to nuts that dairy) - perhaps reflecting the anti-soy movement in the USA.
> However, this thread is for people to discuss the use of SW in soap, not whether or not people like it or not.


There is a movement against soy in Australia because of the effects of eating soy and because it is often GM.

Do some research before you use seaweed and soy in a soap as the subsequent iodine content could be problematic for some people.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 14, 2019)

100% hydrogenated soy has a melting temperature of about 145˚.  Anything lower than that, including all candle wax, will be partially hydrogenated.  

the letter from Golden Brands I posted above goes into quite a bit of detail about their testing, DNA content, and refining results.  Basically, what they are selling is refined fat with everything they are testing for at below detectable value.  I would also assume this includes iodine.


----------



## penelopejane (Apr 14, 2019)

Andrew said:


> 100% hydrogenated soy has a melting temperature of about 145˚.  Anything lower than that, including all candle wax, will be partially hydrogenated.
> 
> the letter from Golden Brands I posted above goes into quite a bit of detail about their testing, DNA content, and refining results.  Basically, what they are selling is refined fat with everything they are testing for at below detectable value.  I would also assume this includes iodine.


The spec sheet for the soy wax Rune bought has iodine listed at 50-56 CG/G.

http://www.madarcorporation.co.uk/spec-sheets/cosmetic-waxes/Soya Wax - Spec.pdf


----------



## Andrew (Apr 14, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> The spec sheet for the soy wax Rune bought has iodine listed at 50-56 CG/G.
> 
> http://www.madarcorporation.co.uk/spec-sheets/cosmetic-waxes/Soya Wax - Spec.pdf



the iodine value, or iodine index in chemistry is  the mass of iodine in grams that is consumed or absorbed by 100g of a chemical substance.  How it is relevant for soap makers is it helps determine the amount of unsaturation in fatty acids.  It has nothing to do with how much iodine is in the product.  it is even in all soap calculators as a reference number.


----------



## Rune (Apr 14, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> The spec sheet for the soy wax Rune bought has iodine listed at 50-56 CG/G.
> 
> http://www.madarcorporation.co.uk/spec-sheets/cosmetic-waxes/Soya Wax - Spec.pdf



I did not buy that wax, but I know I said I would. I just found another supplier and bought from them. I bought this wax:
https://mothernaturesgoodies.co.uk/soy-wax-flakes-for-cosmetics-massage-bars-and-massage-candles/

It seems to be NatureWax C3. I don't find any info stating if any wax is 100% hydrogenated or not. Or well, they say that often in the INCI name, but not the degree of hydrogenation. Such info is always given in my country, at least for food oils. But I guess it is other ways to tell, melting point and such. I was looking for a 100% fully hydrogenated soy wax, but could not find it. I just assumed it would be best with full hydrogenation, but I see now that the recommended Golden Wax 415 is 100% partially hydrogenated soy without additives.

Mostly everything I found in the UK, but I was not going thru all shops, said their wax was a blend. But blend of what? That was impossible to find out. I tried to find something that was not a blend, but gave up. I could not find it. New Directions did not tell what their soy wax really was other than hydrogenated soybean oil, so it might not have been a blend, or it is blended like most other waxes.

And I encountered another problem, the INCI names change just randomly after what supplier you visit. The same wax can have two-three different INCI names, which makes it really difficult to find out what it really is or not. I suspect they just make up an appropriate name as they like. For example can they write one place hydrogenated soybean oil, and the next place hydrogenated vegetable glycerides, or something like that. Very confusing.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Apr 14, 2019)

Rune said:


> I did not buy that wax, but I know I said I would. I just found another supplier and bought from them. I bought this wax:
> https://mothernaturesgoodies.co.uk/soy-wax-flakes-for-cosmetics-massage-bars-and-massage-candles/
> 
> It seems to be NatureWax C3. I don't find any info stating if any wax is 100% hydrogenated or not. Or well, they say that often in the INCI name, but not the degree of hydrogenation. Such info is always given in my country, at least for food oils. But I guess it is other ways to tell, melting point and such. I was looking for a 100% fully hydrogenated soy wax, but could not find it. I just assumed it would be best with full hydrogenation, but I see now that the recommended Golden Wax 415 is 100% partially hydrogenated soy without additives.
> ...



Would this one work Rune?: https://www.aromantic.co.uk/home/products/butters-waxes/soya-wax.aspx


----------



## earlene (Apr 15, 2019)

earlene said:


> Richard, for me soy wax is an alternative to animal fats, primarily.  It is easily obtained here in the US, is not prohibitively  expensive and can be used in fairly high percentages making it a better choice than some of the vegetable butters such as shea or cocoa butter.
> 
> Another benefit that I see is that my soap with soy wax does not seem to form ash, which is nice because the surface colors remain true rather than to be muted by ash that I have to remove (if so inclined).  And I like the sort of shiny finish it produces.




Well, although I have not gotten ash on my soy wax soaps, it is not tried and true, since *Dawni'*s experience with her soy wax soap vs lard soap experiment does get ash.  Just thought I'd mention that as a follow up on that part of the discussion.  There are other factors at play, other than the soy wax itself.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 15, 2019)

I get ash on mine if i don't gel them.  And I get even more ash when I use salt water.  I have stopped using alcohol spray on the tops because I found that it discoloured them  bit to look like ash, and I've been having better looking soaps since.


----------



## penelopejane (Apr 15, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I get ash on mine if i don't gel them.  And I get even more ash when I use salt water.  I have stopped using alcohol spray on the tops because I found that it discoloured them  bit to look like ash, and I've been having better looking soaps since.


A few of us have found that when using alcohol spray it’s best (stops discolouration) to spray really, really lightly when the soap is set up a little bit. Not liquidy and past the point of being able to do the tops. I insulate my soaps and come back to spray them maybe  1/2 an hour later.  I don’t respray.  With this method it still stops ash:



Rune said:


> I did not buy that wax, but I know I said I would. I just found another supplier and bought from them. I bought this wax:
> https://mothernaturesgoodies.co.uk/soy-wax-flakes-for-cosmetics-massage-bars-and-massage-candles/
> 
> It seems to be NatureWax C3. I don't find any info stating if any wax is 100% hydrogenated or not. Or well, they say that often in the INCI name, but not the degree of hydrogenation. Such info is always given in my country, at least for food oils. But I guess it is other ways to tell, melting point and such. I was looking for a 100% fully hydrogenated soy wax, but could not find it. I just assumed it would be best with full hydrogenation, but I see now that the recommended Golden Wax 415 is 100% partially hydrogenated soy without additives.
> ...


Not sure but I think a blend might be hydrogenated oils AND refined oils. Sometimes it might refer to additives.

They are really tricky with their wording but if it’s 100% hydrogenated they state that clearly. If not they waffle all around it.

I’m think the wax you got will be fine. It sounds similar to the one kiwimoose has had good results with. Test and see if you like it in soap. If you do and you are ever able to find 100% fully hydrogenated soy you know it will just produce a soap that is a little harder.


----------



## Rune (Apr 15, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> Would this one work Rune?: https://www.aromantic.co.uk/home/products/butters-waxes/soya-wax.aspx



Thank you  But, it is very, very expensive. With shipping, 1 kilo would cost me 25,07 GBP.

I paid 26 GBP for 1 litre of castor oil, 1 kilo of rapeseed wax and 2 kilo of soy wax from Mother Nature Goodies, included shipping. A bargain 

But NatureWax C3 is from USA and it is made from GMO soy (but they say it is tested not to contain any GMO or how it was. I did not understand it).

I sort of expected GMO when I saw it was from the USA. But that is perhaps better than soy from Brazil, where they have cut down rainforest to grow it, or from China where you don't know what you get or how they have grown it, if it is soy. They still use illegal pestisides in China and 80% or so of their land is polluted (I can't remember exactly), plus they have a history of adulterating to the extremes. I read that 50% of the population in cities in China had lead poisoning in various degrees, because they add lead to tea to make it heavier. Quite extreme! God knows what they can do to their soy. So, things can be worse than some GMO soy wax, probably cultivated under satisfactory conditions. And GMO is controversial, not only bad things.


----------



## Andrew (Apr 16, 2019)

i have previous comments and a letter from golden wax going into GMO and DNA.

I drink a lot of tea... will have to look into that...


----------



## earlene (Apr 16, 2019)

Rune said:


> I read that 50% of the population in cities in China had lead poisoning in various degrees, because they add lead to tea to make it heavier. Quite extreme! .



Re: the tea, the older tea leaves tend to accumulate lead (from the soil), whereas younger leaves have far less lead.  https://www.care2.com/greenliving/lead-contamination-of-tea-which-types-to-avoid.html


Just thought I'd point that out as one reason the tea may have more lead.


Back to topic:

I have been using my soap with 30% soy wax and find that not only does it produce a hard bar of soap, it also works fairly well for shaving my legs when I did not bring my shaving soap with me on our recent 5-day roadtrip.  No nicks or cuts, which is the main reason I usually avoid using plain bath soap for shaving.  So that was a plus for the soy wax soap as well.


----------



## gloopygloop (Apr 16, 2019)

Please dont anyone stop the discussion, its very interesting and not scary at all. Am sure no one is arguing with anyone and everyone can agree to disagree, its great to have back up facts and figures so keep em coming folks.


----------



## Rune (Apr 17, 2019)

@earlene But that reason behind lead in tea is not dramatic enough for the news, so I guess that is why they did not mention it.

I'm glad to hear you successfully used soy wax in 30% of the receipe, and that it works for shaving. Not that I will use it for shaving, but I really like the shaving cream like lather. That is my goal, and I think I came quite close in my last soap. But, it is not cured properly yet, and I can't make it again, since the fat blend I used have changed, or I might have used the new one, I have no idea. 

What I especially like is when the lather is so stiff that it hardens on the soap when left to dry. My last soap did just that, but I also did add 3% stearic/palmitic 50/50 blend (a candle wax). Not much, but. I think and hope soy wax will make the the same kind of lather because of the high stearic content. And since it works for you as a shaving soap, that is really promising 

I just hope the soy wax arrives soon. Now I'm trying to find out how to refine red palm oil at home. I seems not too difficult, so far.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Oct 13, 2019)

Can I reawaken this thread? I would like to ask soy wax users advice on how best to add heat inducing additives such as beer, aloe vera, honey etc?


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Oct 13, 2019)

If anyone’s interested, I posted my attempt to approximate the FA profile of Golden Wax 415 in another thread, which is here:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/i-need-help-with-soy-wax-even-after-a-lot-of-reading.76778/


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 13, 2019)

I’ve used beer, cider, champagne, coconut milk, oat milk, aloe and ginger beer with soy wax successfully. What would you like to know?


----------



## pmartin (Oct 13, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> If anyone’s interested, I posted my attempt to approximate the FA profile of Golden Wax 415 in another thread, which is here:
> 
> https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/i-need-help-with-soy-wax-even-after-a-lot-of-reading.76778/



I read through your thread and it’s obvious you’ve done quite a bit of research but I’m still unsure if I’m understanding your findings.

Can you give a quick, clear breakdown of the FA profile of GW415 including stearic content? Thank you!


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Oct 13, 2019)

pmartin said:


> I read through your thread and it’s obvious you’ve done quite a bit of research but I’m still unsure if I’m understanding your findings.
> 
> Can you give a quick, clear breakdown of the FA profile of GW415 including stearic content? Thank you!


There is no verified FA profile.  The best estimate is in my last worksheet, but it’s probably a bit high on the stearic and low on palmitic based on the data in the research papers I linked.  My FA profile matches the iodine value, sat:unsat and major classes of FA supplied by the manufacturer.

ETA: I uploaded another worksheet (today’s date) that has an FA profile that’s even closer to what I think the reality must be, i.e. 56% oleic acid (including the trans fat elaidic acid) vs. 44% palmitic + stearic.  It seems highly likely, for reasons explained in the thread I linked above, that the SAP for Golden Wax 415 is in the same range as the SAP for lard, palm and tallow, and that means higher than what is given for hydrogenated soybean oil in the soap calculators I checked.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Oct 14, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I’ve used beer, cider, champagne, coconut milk, oat milk, aloe and ginger beer with soy wax successfully. What would you like to know?



I would also like to try some of the above water replacements (champagne…Wow!!). What's making me hesitate is that I am concerned about how to gel my soaps if I use a high sugar water replacement.  I get along quite well with soy wax as long as I CPOP.  Maybe its because I live in a cooler climate but if I don’t CPOP, the soap doesn’t gel evenly and there is mottling where it looks as though the wax has cooled down quicker than the rest of the mixture.  I did get advice from DeeAnna not to gel soap using beer in another thread but I would like to hear from any soy wax users who may have experiences to share.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 14, 2019)

Hmmmm - I can't remember if I CPOPped my beer soap - I think I may have.  My first one I didn't because it was summer, but I think I did for the second one.  I've just done a coconut milk soap today which I CPOPped no problem - but probably not as much sugar in that as there is in beer.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Oct 14, 2019)

Thank you


----------



## lovesoaping (Jan 12, 2021)

KimT2au said:


> I haven't used soy wax yet but do have a tub of it here to try.  Is rice bran oil prone to DOS at all?


Hi there KimT2au!  I keep my Rice Bran Oil use to a 30% limit because, when I was a newbie, I read that if Linoleic acid is above 15% we get DOS.


----------



## senaraj (Jan 18, 2021)

Soy Wax Flakes
					

Buy Soy Wax Flakes Online at Wholesale Price from Leading Manufacturer, Supplier of India at Lowest Price. Shop Natural Soy Wax Flakes Online in Bulk Quantity. Check Soy Wax Price in Kg, Specifications, Certifications, Fast shipping & Various Payment options at VedaOils.




					www.vedaoils.com
				




Is this a good Soywax to be used for soap making?


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 18, 2021)

senaraj said:


> Soy Wax Flakes
> 
> 
> Buy Soy Wax Flakes Online at Wholesale Price from Leading Manufacturer, Supplier of India at Lowest Price. Shop Natural Soy Wax Flakes Online in Bulk Quantity. Check Soy Wax Price in Kg, Specifications, Certifications, Fast shipping & Various Payment options at VedaOils.
> ...


It appears to be ok - but  not a brand I'm familiar with.  Try it and see!


----------



## Olive Oil (Feb 20, 2021)

Hi, I wonder if anyone can confirm which oil to select on soap calc for soy wax?  I've just bought some organic, low melt point (48C/122F) soy wax.  Ingredients:
*INCI: Soybean Oil (and) Hydrogenated Soybean Glycerides (and) Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil (and) Stearic Acid (and) Hydrogenated Soybean Oil*

I'm thinking it would be the fully hydrogenated option but I'm not certain.  It didn't have a number to identify it (like eurosoy 800 for example) but it does list the SAP value as 190.  

Any ideas?  Thanks for any help.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Feb 20, 2021)

Olive Oil said:


> Hi, I wonder if anyone can confirm which oil to select on soap calc for soy wax?  I've just bought some organic, low melt point (48C/122F) soy wax.  Ingredients:
> *INCI: Soybean Oil (and) Hydrogenated Soybean Glycerides (and) Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil (and) Stearic Acid (and) Hydrogenated Soybean Oil*
> 
> I'm thinking it would be the fully hydrogenated option but I'm not certain.  It didn't have a number to identify it (like eurosoy 800 for example) but it does list the SAP value as 190.
> ...


I'd be cautious and make a small batch.  There are lots of ingredients in there.  Try the partially hydrogenated option.


----------



## senaraj (Feb 20, 2021)

which oil to select on soap calc for soy wax?


----------



## Richard Perrine (Feb 20, 2021)

I use the "Soybean, fully hydrogenated (soy wax)" on soapcalc.net. It has worked for me.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Feb 21, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I'd be cautious and make a small batch.  There are lots of ingredients in there.  Try the partially hydrogenated option.


Olive - is the soy wax you have solid in flakes?  If so then try using the fully hydrogenated option.  It's just that my soy wax doesn't list all those ingredients so it kinda had me stumped.


----------



## Olive Oil (Feb 22, 2021)

Thanks KiwiMoose and Richard Perrine.   I found a data sheet for the product and it states that it's 100% hydrogenated but I've written to the supplier to double check as it seems weird that it's 100% based on the ingredients.  

KiwiMoose do 'normal' soy waxes usually contain only hydrogenated soybean oil?  I normally use cocoa or shea butters so soy wax is something new for me and I know almost nothing about it.  I have looked at a number of suppliers here in Spain and they all seem to offer soy wax with similar ingredients (if they bother to list them).  I have tried to find eurosoy 800 because I've heard it has no additives, is non-gmo and is produced in Europe but I can only find it in the UK!


----------



## Olive Oil (Feb 22, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Olive - is the soy wax you have solid in flakes?  If so then try using the fully hydrogenated option.  It's just that my soy wax doesn't list all those ingredients so it kinda had me stumped.


Yes, it's in flakes but they feel quite soft..  I don't really like all those ingredients.  What are the ingredients of the soy wax you use?  Thanks so much for your feedback.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Feb 22, 2021)

Olive Oil said:


> Yes, it's in flakes but they feel quite soft..  I don't really like all those ingredients.  What are the ingredients of the soy wax you use?  Thanks so much for your feedback.


100% hydrogenated soy wax


----------



## GemstonePony (Feb 22, 2021)

This might be purely my imagination, but I used a fragrance in one soap and then used it in soap that had soy wax, and I feel like the one with soy wax held the top notes of the fragrance a little better. I wasn't expecting the fragrance to be different, and it could easily have been just a difference in the natural smell of the soap that happened to align with the fragrance slightly. It wasn't a huge difference, and so I wouldn't count on it preserving some delicate fragrance or anything crazy. Fragrance was added to oils/wax before adding lye for both batches.


----------



## Something witty (Feb 24, 2021)

I wonder how you would calculate it in a recipe since beeswax is harder, denser, and has a higher melting temperature than soy wax. 
I suppose looking into candle making tips then seeing what transferable data can be used.


----------



## GemstonePony (Feb 24, 2021)

Something witty said:


> I wonder how you would calculate it in a recipe since beeswax is harder, denser, and has a higher melting temperature than soy wax.
> I suppose looking into candle making tips then seeing what transferable data can be used.


I'm not sure what you mean: a lot of lye calculator have sap values for soy wax (which isn't wax) and beeswax (which is wax). They won't accurately measure how much hardness beeswax contributes, since it's mostly unsaponifiable (can't become soap). They usually accurately portray the hardness that soy wax contributes, since it is saponifiable (becomes soap). This is why soy wax can fortify lather, and beeswax kills it. Also in mis-named materials, Jojoba oil is a liquid wax that kills lather because it's mostly unsaponifiable, and it keeps soap from becoming as hard because it's liquid.


----------



## Something witty (Feb 24, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> I'm not sure what you mean: a lot of lye calculator have sap values for soy wax (which isn't wax) and beeswax (which is wax). They won't accurately measure how much hardness beeswax contributes, since it's mostly unsaponifiable (can't become soap). They usually accurately portray the hardness that soy wax contributes, since it is saponifiable (becomes soap). This is why soy wax can fortify lather, and beeswax kills it. Also in mis-named materials, Jojoba oil is a liquid wax that kills lather because it's mostly unsaponifiable, and it keeps soap from becoming as hard because it's liquid.



Oh ok I'm confused. I'm new so when I hear soy wax I'm thinking of what people are making candles out of. So what are we actually talking about?


----------



## GemstonePony (Feb 24, 2021)

Something witty said:


> Oh ok I'm confused. I'm new so when I hear soy wax I'm thinking of what people are making candles out of. So what are we actually talking about?


The same thing people make candles out of.


----------



## Something witty (Feb 24, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> The same thing people make candles out of.


Then how is it not a wax? Isn't it in the name? I'm confused by what you mean. Can you please elaborate?


----------



## GemstonePony (Feb 24, 2021)

Something witty said:


> Then how is it not a wax? Isn't it in the name? I'm confused by what you mean. Can you please elaborate?


It's fully hydrogenated soybean oil. Attached is screenshot of a Google search of soy wax composition, and a pic of my 4-day-old soap with soy wax, which would absolutely not be lathering nearly this well if it was 15% actual wax. Feel free to Google why it was hydrogenated soy wax was mis-named, (my guess is marketing/sales), but it makes both candles and soap.


----------



## Something witty (Feb 24, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> It's fully hydrogenated soybean oil. Attached is screenshot of a Google search of soy wax composition, and a pic of my 4-day-old soap with soy wax, which would absolutely not be lathering nearly this well if it was 15% actual wax. Feel free to Google why it was hydrogenated soy wax was mis-named, (my guess is marketing/sales), but it makes both candles and soap.


Oh so it was a "mis-name" of sorts. Thank you. Nice to know the other name for it so I can find it on every calculator now (I like to cross reference the same recipe on different calculators to make sure everything is a "good idea" before I accidentally blow up my kitchen lol)


----------



## senaraj (Apr 5, 2021)

I am from India, and the climate in my city is now very hot at 
35 Celsius. I did get some soywax for making soaps. I need to know if I have to refrigerate it or can keep it in the room temperature?


----------



## Richard Perrine (Apr 5, 2021)

I keep my soy wax in room temperature, but the room temperature for me is never above 75 as I do my soaping in the basement. I believe the melting point is above 115F or 46C, right? So, it should be okay for now.


----------



## GemstonePony (Apr 5, 2021)

Soy wax is frequently used in candles, and I have never heard of them having to be refrigerated. I believe it should be fine at room temperature.


----------



## earlene (Apr 6, 2021)

senaraj said:


> I am from India, and the climate in my city is now very hot at
> 35 Celsius. I did get some soywax for making soaps. I need to know if I have to refrigerate it or can keep it in the room temperature?



I do NOT refrigerate my soy wax, but I also don't keep it in location where temperatures reach above 110°F (like my uninsulated garage in the summertime), so it never melts until I choose to melt it for making soap.  I think it depends on how hot it gets where you normally store your soy wax.  If your house is comfortable to you for daily living, I suspect it is okay as long as the melting point of your particular soy wax is fairly below that temperature.

My soy wax has a melting point of 49° C, so I don't keep it in my garage, which can easily reach that temperature in the height of summer and autumn. Of course I don't keep any oils in the garage except in the winter as the temperatures can fluctuate far too much in an uninsulated environment and that's just not good for the oils.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 6, 2021)

We reach 32 degrees celsius at the height of summer and it's still hard as nails in that temp.


----------



## senaraj (Apr 8, 2021)

Hello,
I need help to decide if this recipe will work out for doing swirl designs. Thank you in advance. I am willing to use a blend of Tea tree, lavender and Rosemary essential oil. Also Planning to use oxide colors and planning to soap at room temperature i.e... at 33 celcius


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 8, 2021)

senaraj said:


> Hello,
> I need help to decide if this recipe will work out for doing swirl designs. Thank you in advance. I am willing to use a blend of Tea tree, lavender and Rosemary essential oil. Also Planning to use oxide colors and planning to soap at room temperature i.e... at 33 celcius


If you're asking this because you think the soy wax will affect swirls - it won't.  I use soy wax at 20% and also Shea butter at 10% and do swirls aplenty.  However, I would recommend you soap a bit warmer than 33 degrees because you can get stearic spots or false trace.  I usually soap around 38 minimum - usually more like 42.


----------



## senaraj (Apr 8, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> If you're asking this because you think the soy wax will affect swirls - it won't.  I use soy wax at 20% and also Shea butter at 10% and do swirls aplenty.  However, I would recommend you soap a bit warmer than 33 degrees because you can get stearic spots or false trace.  I usually soap around 38 minimum - usually more like 42.



I need to also know if this recipe trace faster when I work at a higher temperature?


----------



## GemstonePony (Apr 8, 2021)

senaraj said:


> I need to also know if this recipe trace faster when I work at a higher temperature?


Faster compared to what? All tracing speeds are relative to your prior experience and expectations. I'd estimate 75% of controlling trace is knowing how to mix and when to stop. Keep the temp between 37-46° C, and the rest is up to your judgment.
Warming up batter in the microwave briefly is a technique some of us use to make thickened batter at the end of a pour more fluid, so higher temps don't always mean thicker batter.
Conversely, if you start too cool, your solid fats/oils can start to re-solidify into pudding, so cooler doesn't necessarily mean more fluid either.


----------



## Quanta (Apr 8, 2021)

I want to clear something up that seems to confuse people regarding soy wax.

If your soy wax flakes are very hard and dry and feel like bits of brittle plastic AND have a HIGH melting point, it is fully hydrogenated and is NOT the kind used for making candles*, but can be used in skin care products.

If your soy wax flakes are a little bit soft and feel somewhat oily, AND have a LOW melting point, it is partially hydrogenated and is the kind that is frequently blended with additives and used for candles. If you want it without the candle additives so you can use it in skin care products, make sure you are buying GW415 or equivalent.

They have similar, but different SAP values. Fully hydrogenated soybean oil has a slightly higher SAP (0.137 for NaOH) vs. partially hydrogenated or just plain soybean oil (0.136). However, they each have very different fatty acid profiles and will make very different soaps. Go to the SoapMaking Friend lye calculator and look at the numbers and the recipe properties for each one (including just plain unhydrogenated soybean oil).

*Here is what happens when you use the fully hydrogenated stuff to make scented candles (scroll down a few posts to see the timelapse videos): help. why is this happening?


----------



## earlene (Apr 9, 2021)

Quanta said:


> I want to clear something up that seems to confuse people regarding soy wax.
> 
> If your soy wax flakes are very hard and dry and feel like bits of brittle plastic AND have a HIGH melting point, it is fully hydrogenated and is NOT the kind used for making candles*, but can be used in skin care products.
> 
> ...



I didn't know individuals (as opposed to large corporations) could still purchase fully hydrogenated Soy anymore in the US.  I tried some time ago and had no luck finding anyone who would sell small quantities.

I do use GW415, but have customized it in *Soapmaking Recipe Builder* per the data gathered by @Mobjack Bay (see *this thread*).

I believe some folks who cannot obtain GW415, such as some the UK & down under are using 464 with good results.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 9, 2021)

earlene said:


> I believe some folks who cannot obtain GW415, such as some the UK & down under are using 464 with good results.


I use 415 but last year ( unbeknown to me until I was at the end of my 5kg box) I used 464 and didn't notice any difference at all. Somebody at my suppliers had shipped me the wrong stuff!


----------



## Quanta (Apr 9, 2021)

earlene said:


> I didn't know individuals (as opposed to large corporations) could still purchase fully hydrogenated Soy anymore in the US.  I tried some time ago and had no luck finding anyone who would sell small quantities.


I got mine from MMS. They do not make it clear on their website that it is what they're selling. I had no idea what it was until I got it. I thought I was buying something like GW415 or similar, but when I received it, it didn't look right. I looked up the info sheet for fully hydrogenated soybean oil from an industrial supplier, and the melting temperature matches the stuff I have (close to 160°, whereas the melting temperature of partially hydrogenated soybean oil, i.e. GW415 is more like 120 - 125° or so) It also feels like it has no oil in it when I rub a piece between my fingers, which makes sense.









						Soy Wax
					

We have a special offer on this soy wax that is perfect for making lotion bars, salves, cuticle treatments, and even the occasional lip balm.  Our Soy Wax has a melting point of 150-160°F, and we've found it can be a little tricky for lip balms, but we love using it in our Bottoms Up Salve...




					www.thesage.com
				




On that page it says that you can make candles with it, but since they don't make candles at MMS they only use it in cosmetics. Since my attempts at using it for candles was disastrous and hilarious, I really don't think they know what they have.


----------



## meena.shah (Apr 11, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I can't speak for replacement of any of those three because I've never used them.  I use about 20% soy wax as my 'hardener' for want of a better word, to replace the need for any of those three. I also use 10 - 15% shea butter in every batch and my soaps seem to have a lovely lather.  I use 20 % CO as well and the rest soft oils.


Can you please help? I want to know do you melt soy wax with your hard oils or separat?


----------



## earlene (Apr 11, 2021)

meena.shah said:


> Can you please help? I want to know do you melt soy wax with your hard oils or separat?


I melt my soy wax & other hard oils with some of the liquid oils.  The added heat of the soft oils surrounding the hard oils helps them to melt. I generally do this in the microwave overn, but it can be done in a crock pot or on stove top or hot plate or however you normally heat things.


----------



## meena.shah (Apr 11, 2021)

earlene said:


> I melt my soy wax & other hard oils with some of the liquid oils.  The added heat of the soft oils surrounding the hard oils helps them to melt. I generally do this in the microwave overn, but it can be done in a crock pot or on stove top or hot plate or however you normally heat things.


Thank you


----------



## Johnez (Apr 11, 2021)

I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes? I want to try to make a shave soap with soy being it has the highest stearic content and found an amazing recipe online.

This seems the perfect ingredient for shave soap checking a lot of the required boxes AND helps avoid palm and animal products.


----------



## Quanta (Apr 11, 2021)

Johnez said:


> I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes? I want to try to make a shave soap with soy being it has the highest stearic content and found an amazing recipe online.
> 
> This seams the perfect ingredient for shave soap checking a lot of the required boxes AND helps avoid palm and animal products.


As far as I know, there's only cause for concern if you're eating it.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Apr 12, 2021)

Johnez said:


> I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes? I want to try to make a shave soap with soy being it has the highest stearic content and found an amazing recipe online.
> 
> This seems the perfect ingredient for shave soap checking a lot of the required boxes AND helps avoid palm and animal products.


That whole soy containing oestrogen thing is a storm in a teacup.  The plant-based oestrogen contained in soy is not the same as the female hormone and will not affect males if eaten. The Top 5 Soy Myths


----------



## earlene (Apr 12, 2021)

Johnez said:


> I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes? I want to try to make a shave soap with soy being it has the highest stearic content and found an amazing recipe online.


Think about this:
How long does the lather remain on the skin?  Is it long enough to absorb anything that remains in the soap AFTER saponification?

Also, highly processes soy products have fewer phytoestrogens than raw soy beans and the lesser processed forms of soy.  Heat also breaks them down.  So what is left of these phytoestrogens in soy after heat and sodium hydroxide have done their thing?  

Besides that "Phytoestrogens are not found in the fatty portion of the soybean plant. This is why soybean oil does not contain phytoestrogens. " (https://www.thelamfoundation.org/Portals/0/Files/5 - Soy and LAM.pdf?ver=2016-02-01-132355-793)


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## Johnez (Apr 12, 2021)

earlene said:


> Think about this:
> How long does the lather remain on the skin?  Is it long enough to absorb anything that remains in the soap AFTER saponification?
> 
> Also, highly processes soy products have fewer phytoestrogens than raw soy beans and the lesser processed forms of soy.  Heat also breaks them down.  So what is left of these phytoestrogens in soy after heat and sodium hydroxide have done their thing?
> ...



Very interesting, thank you so much for sharing. I had a feeling it wasn't such a big deal even if the estrogen concern was valid being it's a wash off product. The fact that phytoestrogen isn't found in the fat deals it for me and I'll definitely give soy a try in the future.



KiwiMoose said:


> That whole soy containing oestrogen thing is a storm in a teacup.  The plant-based oestrogen contained in soy is not the same as the female hormone and will not affect males if eaten. The Top 5 Soy Myths


Thank you both, this was the exact nudge I needed.


----------



## Quanta (Apr 12, 2021)

In general, your skin does a fantastic job of keeping things out of your body. I have seen websites that claim that within 30 seconds or whatever, everything you put on your skin is in your bloodstream. This is demonstrably false. If it were true, the manufacturers of nicotine patches and estrogen patches wouldn't have to add ingredients that force those substances deep enough into the skin to be absorbed into the bloodstream.

I also remember seeing recently a comparison of the estrogenic strength of parabens, soy products, and the human body's own natural estrogen. Parabens are very nearly nothing at all, soy is a smidge more, and natural human estrogen was waaaaay up there. I looked online and can't find it now but basically you would have to eat abnormally large amounts of soy for it to have any effect on you.


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## ResolvableOwl (Apr 12, 2021)

Johnez said:


> I don't want to derail this thread at all (I see it happened early on) but is there any sort of reassurance with regards to soy and it's estrogenic properties for dudes?


Many things have been brought up already. Let me add that even if phytoestrogens made it into the oil, I don't believe that they would survive the harsh conditions of hydrogenation (high temperatures, hydrogen pressure, catalysts). Not even a simple molecule like oleic acid does, and that's the whole point of hydrogenation.

But if you (or your customers) still aren't convinced (or you want to avoid the silly “unmanly” rep of soy for the sake of “green labeling”), you still can opt for a hydrogenated wax made from canola or sunflower oil. Guaranteed 100% safe from containing any soy phytoestrogens.


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## Johnez (Apr 12, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Many things have been brought up already. Let me add that even if phytoestrogens made it into the oil, I don't believe that they would survive the harsh conditions of hydrogenation (high temperatures, hydrogen pressure, catalysts). Not even a simple molecule like oleic acid does, and that's the whole point of hydrogenation.
> 
> But if you (or your customers) still aren't convinced (or you want to avoid the silly “unmanly” rep of soy for the sake of “green labeling”), you still can opt for a hydrogenated wax made from canola or sunflower oil. Guaranteed 100% safe from containing any soy phytoestrogens.



Thanks, I may have missed it-there's a lot of info floating around. Also I'm a noob, won't be selling any time soon (probably never) so I may have seen it but not registered that since I wasn't super interested in soy till I found out it was a high source of stearic acid. Regardless-this is definitely going in the notes. I don't want to derail the thread further but am happy to see this info out there. Thanks, and apology for derail but special thanks to @KiwiMoose for starting this discussion.


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## Quanta (Apr 12, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Many things have been brought up already. Let me add that even if phytoestrogens made it into the oil, I don't believe that they would survive the harsh conditions of hydrogenation (high temperatures, hydrogen pressure, catalysts). Not even a simple molecule like oleic acid does, and that's the whole point of hydrogenation.
> 
> But if you (or your customers) still aren't convinced (or you want to avoid the silly “unmanly” rep of soy for the sake of “green labeling”), you still can opt for a hydrogenated wax made from canola or sunflower oil. Guaranteed 100% safe from containing any soy phytoestrogens.


I've looked all over and I think canola wax is a European thing, since I can't find a place to buy it in the USA. I can find sunflower wax at a few places, and it is crazy expensive.


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## ResolvableOwl (Apr 13, 2021)

Quanta said:


> I've looked all over and I think canola wax is a European thing, since I can't find a place to buy it in the USA. I can find sunflower wax at a few places, and it is crazy expensive.


Hmmm. That might well be the case (no strong soy lobby, GMO alertness). A bummer when choice exists, but is not offered to customers ☹. In return, this means that much of the soy wax knowledge of this thread is useless to us Europeans, who can't get their hands on the many soy wax varieties.

“Sunflower wax” is a difficult thing to search for, since most retailers refer to _helianthus annuus seed cera_, which is a proper wax made from sunflower seed hulls and oil unsaponifiables. This is in fact quite expensive, as well as useless as a soapmaking base oil.
I'm nearly certain to have seen offerings not so long ago, but right now I really can't find any supplier for _hydrogenated sunflower oil_ at all . Margarine producers and candle makers use it all the time, but as usual aren't verbose about sources and specifications.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Hmmm. That might well be the case (no strong soy lobby, GMO alertness). A bummer when choice exists, but is not offered to customers ☹. In return, this means that much of the soy wax knowledge of this thread is useless to us Europeans, who can't get their hands on the many soy wax varieties.
> 
> “Sunflower wax” is a difficult thing to search for, since most retailers refer to _helianthus annuus seed cera_, which is a proper wax made from sunflower seed hulls and oil unsaponifiables. This is in fact quite expensive, as well as useless as a soapmaking base oil.
> I'm nearly certain to have seen offerings not so long ago, but right now I really can't find any supplier for _hydrogenated sunflower oil_ at all . Margarine producers and candle makers use it all the time, but as usual aren't verbose about sources and specifications.


Eurosoy is apparently very good


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## ResolvableOwl (Apr 13, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Eurosoy is apparently very good


I was talking about _Europe_, not the _UK_ 


ETA: Joke/politics aside, I haven't tried hard enough yet to find a go-to supplier for hydrogenated vegetable oil (who sells it anywhere near my go-to quantities). That might change, but for the time being I'm just qualified enough to follow this group to lament over bad lab-scale accessibility, be it from whatever plant oil the waxes are derived.


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## Tara_H (Apr 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> I was talking about _Europe_, not the _UK_


I have no horse in this race, but when I looked up Eurosoy it says it's from Germany?


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## ResolvableOwl (Apr 13, 2021)

You're right (EUROSOY GmbH, Hamburg). But for whatever reason I only ever find it sold in £ by UK retailers.

But as already said, I actually have no horse in this race either. _Blessed are those who having nothing to say and still keep their mouths shut._


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## Quanta (Apr 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> “Sunflower wax” is a difficult thing to search for, since most retailers refer to _helianthus annuus seed cera_, which is a proper wax made from sunflower seed hulls and oil unsaponifiables. This is in fact quite expensive, as well as useless as a soapmaking base oil.
> I'm nearly certain to have seen offerings not so long ago, but right now I really can't find any supplier for _hydrogenated sunflower oil_ at all . Margarine producers and candle makers use it all the time, but as usual aren't verbose about sources and specifications.


You're probably right. I didn't look too closely at the sunflower wax I did find, once I saw the price. I think it's unfortunate that hydrogenated oils have acquired the nickname of "wax", since it only causes confusion.


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## ResolvableOwl (Apr 13, 2021)

Quanta said:


> I think it's unfortunate that hydrogenated oils have acquired the nickname of "wax", since it only causes confusion.


Just to make things even more complicated, there is sumac wax (japan wax), that is mostly saturated triglyceride (natural tripalmitin), _not_ hydrogenated, very useful in soapmaking as a hard oil, _and_ traditionally used in Japan for … candles! And, of course, its INCI reads _Rhus Verniciflua Peel *Cera*._


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 14, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> I was talking about _Europe_, not the _UK_
> 
> 
> ETA: Joke/politics aside, I haven't tried hard enough yet to find a go-to supplier for hydrogenated vegetable oil (who sells it anywhere near my go-to quantities). That might change, but for the time being I'm just qualified enough to follow this group to lament over bad lab-scale accessibility, be it from whatever plant oil the waxes are derived.


Yeh - the Brits have now been 'Brexited'.


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## earlene (Apr 14, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> You're right (EUROSOY GmbH, Hamburg). But for whatever reason I only ever find it sold in £ by UK retailers.
> 
> But as already said, I actually have no horse in this race either. _Blessed are those who having nothing to say and still keep their mouths shut._


Funny how finding a product that logically should be available near you, isn't.  I thought that about soy beans when I first moved here.  Soy beans are the second major crop here in this part of the country, grown by most farmers for hundreds of miles around.  Does any store around her sell dried soybeans for human consumption?  No, not a single grocery store carries dried soy beans, except a couple of Health Foods stores in the major cities, not the tiny one that just opened up here in our little town.  In my state of birth, where soybeans are not a common crop, I could buy dried soybeans in practically any grocery store up until I moved away about 16 years ago.  Here, it's grown for either seed, feed, oil, fuel, or export. No one wants to eat it.  Go figure.  Corn is the other crop, but at least I can buy corn in the grocery store, although not corn grown here.



ResolvableOwl said:


> Just to make things even more complicated, there is sumac wax (japan wax), that is mostly saturated triglyceride (natural tripalmitin), _not_ hydrogenated, very useful in soapmaking as a hard oil, _and_ traditionally used in Japan for … candles! And, of course, its INCI reads _Rhus Verniciflua Peel *Cera*._


 We can buy Japan wax in the US, too, but it's pretty expensive.  5kg  (11 US pounds) is $62.50 US, plus shipping (which always varies by vendor and distance.)  I've never tried it.  You have, right?  Do you find it is a worthy addition to soap & how does it compare price-wise in your region of the world?


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## ResolvableOwl (Apr 14, 2021)

earlene said:


> Does any store around her sell dried soybeans for human consumption? No, not a single grocery store carries dried soy beans, except a couple of Health Foods stores in the major cities, not the tiny one that just opened up here in our little town.


That's crazy. But I know exactly what you mean. Soy is growing in hiking distance from me, yet in organic grocery stores they usually sell ones imported from China… At least a few stores mind to source from German producers (and surprise: they aren't even more expensive than those that traveled half around the globe!).



earlene said:


> We can buy Japan wax in the US, too, but it's pretty expensive. 5kg (11 US pounds) is $62.50 US, plus shipping (which always varies by vendor and distance.) I've never tried it. You have, right? Do you find it is a worthy addition to soap & how does it compare price-wise in your region of the world?


Yes, it is expensive here too. I even paid 10€ for 250 g (economies of scale hitting hard, I guess). Economically, I can't really compare it to soy/canola wax or palm stearin. Definitely only profitable if one throws “green labeling” into the pot (plant-based, palm-free, no food competition, no hydrogenation/chemical modification).

For soapmaking, I like with it that I can ramp up palmitic/hardness values of any recipe to arbitrary values, without affecting other properties. It's about the only possibility (besides pure palmitic acid) to do so without upping stearic too. I have stearic acid under suspicion to have some profound antipathy to the water hardness around here (or maybe I'm just super picky about these things), and palmitic soaps appear to be less affected. Japan wax seems to accelerate trace a little bit (more so than my one-candle-at-a-time canola wax), but not as dramatic as, say, palm oil (at the equivalent hardness-increasing dosage).

However, I've got the Japan wax just recently, the first soaps I made with it are barely cured to a state where I can judge by direct comparison. The more curious I am about the results of my palmitic-vs-stearic experiment!

Is it a “worthy addition to soap”? A wholehearted _Yes!_ from scientist me, who appreciates its flexibility and “purity” in designing experimental recipes. But as a regular addition to John Doe's everyday soap? Not so sure… If I had a free wish, I'd choose fractionated/hydrogenated rice bran or cottonseed oil.


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## earlene (Apr 15, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Is it a “worthy addition to soap”? A wholehearted _Yes!_ from scientist me, who appreciates its flexibility and “purity” in designing experimental recipes. But as a regular addition to John Doe's everyday soap? Not so sure… If I had a free wish, I'd choose fractionated/hydrogenated rice bran or cottonseed oil.


Okay, you got me.  Where do you source fractionated/hydrogenated rice bran?  I had never even heard of it, although I see via Google there's a lot info about its existence.  Won't eve ask about cottonseed, as that's not something we see in the US.


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## ResolvableOwl (Apr 15, 2021)

Sorry to disappoint you.  I've never heard of someone hydrogenating rice bran oil either. I too wish I would… It actually was more a wishful thinking, like _If I had an influence on future innovations of industry/If I had a free wish what they could produce for me/If I had a hydrogenation apparatus by myself_.


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## Katie68121 (Apr 17, 2021)

Reading through this thread today, I’m about to use soy wax for the first time in my CP soap, any advice before I give it a go? Should I soap at higher temp? I was thinking of soaping around 100F using 15% SW I will also be CPOPing


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## earlene (Apr 18, 2021)

Katie68121 said:


> Reading through this thread today, I’m about to use soy wax for the first time in my CP soap, any advice before I give it a go? Should I soap at higher temp? I was thinking of soaping around 100F using 15% SW I will also be CPOPing



Not knowing the rest of your recipe, I can't say for sure, but I believe it may be a bit too cool.

What do you normally soap at?  And which soy wax did you purchase?  Is the melting point of your soy wax is the same as the melting point of the oil you are replacing, you wouldn't necessarily have to change your soaping temperatures at all.  However, if you are only adding a new oil and all the other oils are liquid at room temp, then, yes of course you need to soap warmer.

As long as your melted oils all remain clear & not cloudy, that's your indicator of how low you can go, but you should soap at a slighter warmer temp because the batter may cool if you try anything like multiple colors and so forth.

But to give you a temperature range with GW415 soy wax in the mix, See these posts:
130° F : Soy Wax Soap *Saranac* was the SMF member who got me into using soy wax
125° F : Contemplating soy wax
100.4° F (38° C) as lowest temp:  Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk
113° F (45° C) usual temp: Temperature for CP
100.4° F (38° C) as lowest temp:  Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk
100° F not warm enough in some cases:  Soy wax soap and frozen goat milk

The temperatures would need to be higher for a soy wax with a higher melting point.


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## Richard Perrine (Apr 18, 2021)

Katie68121 said:


> Reading through this thread today, I’m about to use soy wax for the first time in my CP soap, any advice before I give it a go? Should I soap at higher temp? I was thinking of soaping around 100F using 15% SW I will also be CPOPing


When I first started soaping a few years ago there was a heavy emphasis on temp of oils. I was told that it should be no higher than this or that. I understand that that is a strong consideration when it comes to fragrances/oils, but I have largely ignored any need to resign myself to any particular temp restriction. In the case of way wax, I simply wait for the wax to melt and move on from there. I have found it to trace a little quicker, but larger based on the essential oils I use. Some quicker, some not so. So, I melt, take the temperature and if there is a recommended temp for the essential oil, I wait for that temp. If not, I don't care about the temperature and pour when all mixed and there is tracing. I wonder if I've made any sense.


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## Katie68121 (Apr 18, 2021)

earlene said:


> Not knowing the rest of your recipe, I can't say for sure, but I believe it may be a bit too cool.
> 
> What do you normally soap at?  And which soy wax did you purchase?  Is the melting point of your soy wax is the same as the melting point of the oil you are replacing, you wouldn't necessarily have to change your soaping temperatures at all.  However, if you are only adding a new oil and all the other oils are liquid at room temp, then, yes of course you need to soap warmer.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I bought this Natural soy wax from Amazon.


			https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001OXOZDA?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details
		

I usually soap lower than 100F because I was getting cracking issues in my batches I soaped around 110F.
This soy wax states melt point of 121-125
My recipe is as follows using a 33% LC
OO 45%
CO 20%
SW 20% changed from 15%
castor 5%
cocoa butter 10%
Im just going to give it a go, see what happens.


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## earlene (Apr 18, 2021)

Katie68121 said:


> Reading through this thread today, I’m about to use soy wax for the first time in my CP soap, any advice before I give it a go? Should I soap at higher temp? I was thinking of soaping around 100F using 15% SW I will also be CPOPing





Katie68121 said:


> Thank you! I bought this Natural soy wax from Amazon.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001OXOZDA?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details
> ...


Yes, I have purchased that very same product from Amazon.  It will be just fine in soap.  I tend to soap a little warmer than 110 when I am working with soy, closer to 120, but it also depends on the other ingredients in the formula.  But try it and see how it goes for you.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> “Sunflower wax” is a difficult thing to search for, since most retailers refer to _helianthus annuus seed cera_, which is a proper wax made from sunflower seed hulls and oil unsaponifiables. This is in fact quite expensive, as well as useless as a soapmaking base oil.
> I'm nearly certain to have seen offerings not so long ago, but right now I really can't find any supplier for _hydrogenated sunflower oil_ at all . Margarine producers and candle makers use it all the time, but as usual aren't verbose about sources and specifications.


By chance, I found that *Cargill NatureWax C-3S* is hydrogenated sunflower oil (as it seems, their variation of C-3 soy wax, directed to the soy-skeptical European market): Naturewax vegetable oil based candle waxes - Europe | Cargill . Still strange, many places that sell it, call it “Sunflower-olive wax”. This appears to me like label appeal tactics/greenwashing: dump a few % of inedible/lowest-grade olive pomace extract into the _Helianthus_ oil, to profit from the good rep of _Olea_.

Not sure if this “C3S” from the French seller ADC is the same as the Cargill, but they at least have a MSDS that lists it as “100% Sunflower oil, hydrogenated”. Poth-Hille sells something interchangeably called C-3S or C3S (PHC 3458) in the UK, and their gloss-print “data sheet” mentions olive as well, while their overview listing doesn't.


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 13, 2021)

earlene said:


> Not knowing the rest of your recipe, I can't say for sure, but I believe it may be a bit too cool.
> 
> What do you normally soap at?  And which soy wax did you purchase?  Is the melting point of your soy wax is the same as the melting point of the oil you are replacing, you wouldn't necessarily have to change your soaping temperatures at all.  However, if you are only adding a new oil and all the other oils are liquid at room temp, then, yes of course you need to soap warmer.
> 
> ...


I have recently soaped successfully with an oil temp of 36 degrees (which is just under your 100 degrees) and I use GW415 or similar replacement if it is currently available ( with COVID it’s been a nightmare to get stuff). I use it at 20% of my recipe.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 13, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I have recently soaped successfully with an oil temp of 36 degrees (which is just under your 100 degrees) and I use GW415 or similar replacement if it is currently available ( with COVID it’s been a nightmare to get stuff). I use it at 20% of my recipe.


Wow, I need to know your secret.  I have major problems with acceleration if I drop the temp below 120F for my recipe (20% GW 415), which also has 10% shea.  Maybe it’s the lye concentration?  I‘m typically using > 35% LC to cut back on ash.

@ResolvableOwl I had never heard of sunflower wax.  I found it in the US for about 10x the price of GW415 and 5x price of cocoa butter. (eta: I just noticed your earlier post about the prices of sunflower wax, and have now registered that you’re looking for hydrogenated soy)

This one, from US Amazon (SZ brand) doesn’t sound hydrogenated:”Sunflower Wax is a hard, fine crystalline (almost powder like), plant wax made through the winterization of sunflower oil (cooling oil very slowly and extracting high melting parts of it during the process).

Then there’s this one, from TheHerbarie.com.  C-42 to C-60 ?!
“Sunflower Wax Pastilles consist of long chain saturated C-42 to C-60 esters derived from fatty alcohols and fatty acids.”


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 13, 2021)

Yeah, like mentioned before, there is an unfortunate *naming overlap*. For one, there is the *“cera”/wax* (in the true chemical sense, C42-C60 monoesters) from sunflower kernels (winterisation byproduct, no chemical treatment), that is used in % amounts for specialty things like lipsticks.
On the other hand, *hydrogenated *sunflower oil is chemically syntesised from the triglyceride oil in the same way as soy wax from soybean oil, and is mostly the same C16-C18 triglycerides like every other oil/fat. The latter is the one that is interesting for soapmaking, but difficult to spot, since, as you found out, the former has a greater mindshare.
It's (currently) only a theoretical issue for me, since I'm happy with canola “wax” (hydrogenated canola oil), which is easy enough for me to get, to not worry about hydrogenated sunflower oil.

May I ask what is your rationale for combining soy wax (mostly C18) with shea butter (also mostly C18)? I'm asking because I find a recipe that is somewhat balanced between C16 (palmitic) and C18 (stearic) more pleasing, softer (in a positive sense), more “vivid” and less “stone” like, and easier to lather up.
Depending on field of application, I usually accomplish this with the pairings canola wax (mostly C18 too) + japan wax (mostly C16), or cocoa butter + canola wax, or palm stearin + canola wax. Or add the palmitic acid via rice bran oil.


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Yeah, like mentioned before, there is an unfortunate *naming overlap*. For one, there is the *“cera”/wax* (in the true chemical sense, C42-C60 monoesters) from sunflower kernels (winterisation byproduct, no chemical treatment), that is used in % amounts for specialty things like lipsticks.
> On the other hand, *hydrogenated *sunflower oil is chemically syntesised from the triglyceride oil in the same way as soy wax from soybean oil, and is mostly the same C16-C18 triglycerides like every other oil/fat. The latter is the one that is interesting for soapmaking, but difficult to spot, since, as you found out, the former has a greater mindshare.
> It's (currently) only a theoretical issue for me, since I'm happy with canola “wax” (hydrogenated canola oil), which is easy enough for me to get, to not worry about hydrogenated sunflower oil.
> 
> ...


I also use 10% Shea in mine. I don’t have much palmitic in my recipe other than that in the RBO, Avocado and OO. 
@Mobjack Bay my lye conc is 30%


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Yeah, like mentioned before, there is an unfortunate *naming overlap*. For one, there is the *“cera”/wax* (in the true chemical sense, C42-C60 monoesters) from sunflower kernels (winterisation byproduct, no chemical treatment), that is used in % amounts for specialty things like lipsticks.
> On the other hand, *hydrogenated *sunflower oil is chemically syntesised from the triglyceride oil in the same way as soy wax from soybean oil, and is mostly the same C16-C18 triglycerides like every other oil/fat. The latter is the one that is interesting for soapmaking, but difficult to spot, since, as you found out, the former has a greater mindshare.
> It's (currently) only a theoretical issue for me, since I'm happy with canola “wax” (hydrogenated canola oil), which is easy enough for me to get, to not worry about hydrogenated sunflower oil.
> 
> ...


Due to RBO being one of the liquid oils in my soy wax recipe (at 30%), the palmitic and stearic are balanced at 13:13. I added shea to up the longevity because that’s what I had on hand when I formulated the recipe.  At that point I was not resolving the difference between stearic and palmitic. I like my soy wax recipe quite a bit, but have always felt that it lacks just a little something in terms of how the lather layers (not enough intermediate size bubbles - the “cushiony” foam).  Based on other soaps I’ve made, I thought that layer was from the oleic, but there’s plenty of oleic in my soy wax recipe.  After reading @Orla’s thread and testing another maker’s soap made with cocoa butter (but not soy wax), I bought cocoa butter to try in lieu of the shea.  I’m hoping a tip towards more palmitic FA will give my soy wax recipe that missing oomph I’m looking for. 

@KiwiMoose Thanks. I will try lower temp and lower lye conc together.  Will let you know how it goes!


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## Rune (Jun 28, 2021)

Does anybody know the fatty acid profile of Naturewax C3? Or how much stearic acid it has? I have found out that it is partially hydrogenated. But how much is that? 10, 30 or 80 percent or what?

Naturewax C3 is produced by Cargill, but I can't find any useful information anywhere. Candle waxes are very difficult to research in comparison to oils and butters. You will usually only find candle related information that is useless for soapmakers. I have not asked Cargill for more information. But maybe some of you might know something more than I do about Naturewax C3 or other waxes that are available in Europe?


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## earlene (Jun 28, 2021)

I have contacted Cargill in the past and their answers tend to be rather generic without much detail useful to the discerning soap maker.  But if you do get a more definitive answer, please share!

I have found these, but not much in terms of what you are asking:


			http://gatewayfoodproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/GFP_Waxes_C3.pdf
		



			https://www.cargill.com/doc/1432078142161/naturewax-c-3-data-sheet.pdf
		


And neither mentions anything about being partially hydrogenated.  And particularly no mention of a Saponification number.

Another member, @SeaSuds has mentioned using Naturewax C3 in soap in a couple of threads here. She hasn't posted since April, but perhaps if you contact her she might have something to share.


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## Quanta (Jun 28, 2021)

earlene said:


> I have contacted Cargill in the past and their answers tend to be rather generic without much detail useful to the discerning soap maker.  But if you do get a more definitive answer, please share!
> 
> I have found these, but not much in terms of what you are asking:
> 
> ...


I have worked with C3 for candles, and I have worked with fully hydrogenated soybean oil. I can guarantee you that C3 is partially hydrogenated. It is probably similar to GW 464 which is supposedly somewhere around 35% hydrogenated, IIRC.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 28, 2021)

The official data sheet:


			https://www.cargill.com/doc/1432078142161/naturewax-c-3-data-sheet.pdf
		

isn't really enlightening (@earlene posted it quicker than me!). Guessing from reports about GW415 and the given melting/dropping point/pouring temperature, I'd say it is indeed partially hydrogenated. That means that besides some oleic, and stearic/palmitic acid, it also contains a lot of elaidic acid (trans-oleic), that the usual soap calculators can't deal with anyway.
So just how much stearic acid C-3 has, is of limited use. Even if you knew the saponification value.

[ETA: earlene's other data sheet mentions an iodine value of 55–65, which is about half of the value of pure soybean oil, i. e. it is half hydrogenated. This is consistent with about 1:2 of saturated:mono-unsaturated FAs, the latter of which, again, isn't clear if oleic or elaidic acid, with similar IV but vastly different properties in soap.]

Cargill also makes Naturewax C-3S out of sunflower oil (for the GMO soy skeptical Europeans), for similar applications, and with similar issues (unknown SAP, unknown sat/unsat ratio).


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## Charmed Heart (Jun 28, 2021)

Rune said:


> Does anybody know the fatty acid profile of Naturewax C3? Or how much stearic acid it has? I have found out that it is partially hydrogenated. But how much is that? 10, 30 or 80 percent or what?
> 
> Naturewax C3 is produced by Cargill, but I can't find any useful information anywhere. Candle waxes are very difficult to research in comparison to oils and butters. You will usually only find candle related information that is useless for soapmakers. I have not asked Cargill for more information. But maybe some of you might know something more than I do about Naturewax C3 or other waxes that are available in Europe?


Hello, I apologize for not doing a complete search for your information requested - I have a meeting in 30 minutes, so I didn't look to see if a hydrogenation profile is in here,  you want, re: hydrogenation info is listed, but here are the SDS and Product Handling Guide for C-3 wax. If this info would be anywhere, I would think it would be in one of these documents.


Rune said:


> Does anybody know the fatty acid profile of Naturewax C3? Or how much stearic acid it has? I have found out that it is partially hydrogenated. But how much is that? 10, 30 or 80 percent or what?
> 
> Naturewax C3 is produced by Cargill, but I can't find any useful information anywhere. Candle waxes are very difficult to research in comparison to oils and butters. You will usually only find candle related information that is useless for soapmakers. I have not asked Cargill for more information. But maybe some of you might know something more than I do about Naturewax C3 or other waxes that are available in Europe?


Are these of any help?


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## Rune (Jun 28, 2021)

Thank you so much @earlene, @Quanta @ResolvableOwl and @Charmed Heart for your answers 

I read one place, but I don't remember where, that it was partially hydrogenated. And that makes sense, I don't think it is fully hydrogenated. But the safety data sheet says: Soybean oil, hydrogentated >95%, which is almost fully hydrogenated, or fully hydrogenated + additives. That is a much higher hydrogenation level than I could imagine! Which is strange, that must mean it contains close to 87% stearic acid! Can that really be? I can hardly believe, but yes, who knows.

@ResolvableOwl do you know which properties elaidic acid (trans-oleic) has in soap? Is it good or bad or just acceptable? I have made soap with Naturewax C3 and that soaps were allright, so elaidic acid can't be too bad.

If I knew how much stearic acid that wax or other waxes have, it would be easier to create recipes. I do love stearic acid in soaps (makes a shaving soap like lather), so I want to use something with a higher level of it, something that is not too expensive. So soy wax seemed as a good idea. But I'm not too happy with it. I have tried rapeseed wax as well, not too happy with that either. But it might be the fault of the rest of the recipe and not the waxes. None of those waxes are bad in any way, just not as wonderful as I would like, or hoped (if not the recipe is too blame, which very well might be). I have now bought both palm oil and shea butter, so I hope those in companion with soy wax, coconut, castor and olive can make a better soap, something similar as the soaps I made before (when I used a vegetable shortening type of product that made soaps with an absolutely wonderful feel, but they suddenly changed the recipe dramatically)


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 28, 2021)

Rune said:


> But the safety data sheet says: Soybean oil, hydrogentated >95%


No.  This specification just means that more than 95% of the wax is made up by hydrogen-treated soybean oil, and (sadly!) tells you nothing about the degree how far its unsaturation has been removed.
Also, hydrogenation is a misleading term, since besides actual addition of hydrogen (to convert linole(n)ic acid to less unsaturated FAs in the first place), the major reaction is the cis→trans conversion that doesn't use hydrogen, but still makes fats (and the soap made out of them) higher-melting and harder.
The Gateway data sheet (thx to @earlene) mentions the iodine value, from which one can conclude the degree of hydrogenation to roughly 50%.

I have no way to positively tell anything about elaidic acid specifically. Only I'm frequently using canola wax (partially hydrogenated by similar heuristics) in my recipes. So far it's in line with my expectations of behaving mostly like stearic acid, both in soapmaking (melting temp, stearic spots, turbidity of liquid soap) and unmoulding hardness/usage longevity in bar soaps. This make sense from the molecule shape (straight instead of the bent carbon chains of cis-FAs). I haven't found downsides yet, nor I know from others. Trans fats have a bad rep for increasing risk of heart attack when part of the diet, but I don't worry about this since soap is rinse-off, and when I make soap to soothe my heart, then only in the metaphorical sense .

When I'm using canola wax, I enter it into soap calculators as “100% hydrogenated soybean oil” (which is essentially pure stearic acid), since I've titrated the SAP and found it very similar to that, and I'm not adding overly much of it anyway (<20%).
It might well be that it is weaker “hardening” than proper stearic acid (like FFA-type crystalline palm stearin), but it's “hard enough for my needs”, and I like working with it (not terribly prone to false trace). In any case, I'd give it a higher “hardness rating” than shea/cocoa/mango/cupuaçu butter or palm stearin (fractionated palm oil). Though it means tedious work and patience, there is hardly any way around a few cycles of trial-and-error to familiarise with such an ingredient.

How much do you distinguish between stearic and palmitic acid? Palm oil is a mediocre source for stearic acid, but brings tons of palmitic acid, which behaves similar, but not identical to stearic acid. And either hard oil will bring at least 40% of cis-oleic acid – i. e. you have to steal some of the liquid oil dosage of your recipe too, which you could do with “waxes” (partially hydrogenated oils) just as well.


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## Rune (Jun 28, 2021)

Thank you for a fabulous answer @ResolvableOwl 

I should have thought that >95% hydrogenated also could mean partially hydrogenated or whatever level. Here in Norway hydrogenated can't be written on labels. It has to say if it is fully or partially hydrogenated. So I should have thought that hydrogenated is just an unspecified term.

I have used canola wax (or actually it was called rapeseed wax, but it is basically the same) and I found it to be very, very easy to work with. Too easy actually. I have never had such a fluid batter, and I poured too early, meaning I made a mess since the soap ran outside the liner of my clumsy lined mold. But I did use as low as a 30% lye solution, I would normally use 40%. I added extra water because I was a little worried if 35% wax (30% rapeseed and 5% soy) could make it accellerate too fast. But it didn't accellerate at all, so it was not necessary to add extra water.

I can't remember why, but I added the rapeseed wax as kokum butter in the lye calculator. I probably had a reason. But it has the same SAP as hydrogenated soybean oil anyway, and since you have titrated yours, mine is hopefully roughly the same.

Since Naturewax C3 is roughly 50% that means roughly 40-45% stearic acid. Which is good, actually. But not too good either. I wish it was a little higher.

I found my soaps made with wax (either soy or rapeseed) and coconut as the only hard oils to have a sort of soft oil feel to them. So I have bought both palm and shea to try to balance that out and at the same time reduce the amount of olive oil in the recipe. Shea should probably help, since that shortening product I used in my old soaps had shea listed first on the label. I have high hopes for shea, I must admit. But also for palm. I have actually bought a soap or a few (!) called Sterilan in the grocery store, and it is a 100% palm soap (palm kernel and palm oil). That soap it is amazing! I love it, but I don't like to buy soaps, so I bought palm oil instead 

One reason for why I want to find something very high in stearic acid (or palmitic acid or both) is because I don't want to use too little olive oil. A very strange thing to say, but olive is cheap and available, while other things are not (meaning I have to buy from abroad and pay high shipping costs + double VAT or pay a fortune for a little amount if I can find at all in this country). I hoped soy wax could be the magic trick and solve everything, but it is not. It does help to add some extra hardness and such, yes, and is great when using dual lye. But I wonder if a pillar blend could be better than the softer container blend?


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## earlene (Jun 29, 2021)

@Rune,  at least you can make some small experimental batches, and perhaps come up with a formula that fits your financial goals as well as the hardness factors you are looking for.  It's worth a try.

I hope that @SeaSuds comes along and shares her experience, since I think she is the only one here most recently who used this product and found it to be good in soap.  Maybe you can send her a PM and get a quicker response that way. (Maybe not, but it's worth a try.)


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## Rune (Jun 29, 2021)

Thanks @earlene 

Naturewax C3 works well in soap. It doesn't make any problems or anything. And the soaps I have made with it have been allright. When I think about it, I think it is the rest of my formulation that have not been the best, with too much soft oil I guess. So I will try again. I really should make small experimental batches to come up with a recipe that can be my go-to recipe, but since I'm almost out of soap since I haven't been soaping for ages, I think I will just make two soaps in a row and then do those experiments later. I also have some old oils that must be turned in to soap before they go rancid.


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## DMack (Aug 26, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> It's higher in palmitic, plus it adds a bit more creaminess to the lather. And it is sooooo cheap!
> 
> 
> The bars are lovely to use. You can even leave them soaking in their own water and they retain firmness without turning to sludge. Here's some pics:
> ...


Gorgeous soap. This is 20% soy wax? I got the link here to do some reading up on soy/rice bran oil as an alternative to palm


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## Mobjack Bay (Aug 26, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> I have no way to positively tell anything about elaidic acid specifically. Only I'm frequently using canola wax (partially hydrogenated by similar heuristics) in my recipes. So far it's in line with my expectations of behaving mostly like stearic acid, both in soapmaking (melting temp, stearic spots, turbidity of liquid soap) and unmoulding hardness/usage longevity in bar soaps. This make sense from the molecule shape (straight instead of the bent carbon chains of cis-FAs). well.


Oh, this is very interesting, specifically how the shape of the molecule makes it behave more like a stearic fatty acid (correct?). It makes total sense now that I have a heightened awareness of the importance of the molecule shape/configuration. I think this may help to explain why my soy wax (GW 415) soaps always seem a little harder than I expect based on the fatty acid profile I estimated and posted in another thread.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 26, 2021)

DMack said:


> Gorgeous soap. This is 20% soy wax? I got the link here to do some reading up on soy/rice bran oil as an alternative to palm


Och Aye  20% soy wax, and 20% RBO


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## LynetteO (Aug 26, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Can you order from the USA Alfa?


I live in US, where would you recommend I purchase soy wax from? That is the one ingredient I CAN’T from my local soap/lotion supplier.


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## Vicki C (Aug 26, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> I live in US, where would you recommend I purchase soy wax from? That is the one ingredient I CAN’T from my local soap/lotion supplier.


They have it at the big craft stores (hobby lobby, michaels) in the candle section.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 26, 2021)

Golden Wax 415 Soy Wax


LynetteO said:


> I live in US, where would you recommend I purchase soy wax from? That is the one ingredient I CAN’T from my local soap/lotion supplier.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 26, 2021)

Golden Wax 415 Soy Wax


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 26, 2021)

A little late to the party, but may be of some interest:

*SOY WAX USE IN SOAP*


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## LynetteO (Aug 26, 2021)

Vicki C said:


> They have it at the big craft stores (hobby lobby, michaels) in the candle section.


Jeez Louise that means I have some in my basement with my candle supplies! For some reason was thinking it (soy wax) was different than soy wax flakes for candle making.


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## DMack (Aug 27, 2021)

Sorry but I have a daft question. I’m looking at soy wax and it’s candle making which is coming back, is this the same stuff for soap making?


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## GemstonePony (Aug 27, 2021)

DMack said:


> Sorry but I have a daft question. I’m looking at soy wax and it’s candle making which is coming back, is this the same stuff for soap making?


Yep!


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## Mobjack Bay (Aug 27, 2021)

Some of the candle soy waxes have additives that may affect the melting point. @KiwiMoose and @Dawni have experience and have used them successfully if I am remembering correctly.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 27, 2021)

^True - make sure you get 100% soy wax.  I usually use GW415 and I hear that there is a suitable equivalent in the UK. I once used an entire 5kg box of GW464 without even knowing it (I thought it was 415, but they had sent me the wrong stuff!). 464 is described as hydrogenated soy with some 'soy based' additives.  Both @Dawni and i never figured out exactly what those additives were.


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## soapman5 (Aug 28, 2021)

For those in Europe, which soy wax should we buy? I do not want any additives. I found these:
- Eurosoy800  
- NatureWax C-3 
- EcoSoy C3 
- PURE SOY S100

What are the differences between these soy waxes, and how to they affect the soap?


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 28, 2021)

I've actually used the S100 here in New Zealand and found that it had a higher melt point than GW415 and that did make a difference - much harder to work with for CP soap.  Whichever soy wax you go with, get the lowest melt point that you can. I hear people mention the Eurosoy800 as being quite a good done.
ETA: Just looked up Nature wax C3 and this wouldn't suit with those high temps required.


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## soapman5 (Aug 28, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I've actually used the S100 here in New Zealand and found that it had a higher melt point than GW415 and that did make a difference - much harder to work with for CP soap.  Whichever soy wax you go with, get the lowest melt point that you can. I hear people mention the Eurosoy800 as being quite a good done.
> ETA: Just looked up Nature wax C3 and this wouldn't suit with those high temps required.


Thanks! What is the melting point of eurosoy 800?


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## Quanta (Aug 28, 2021)

soapman5 said:


> Thanks! What is the melting point of eurosoy 800?


47-54°C


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## Mobjack Bay (Aug 28, 2021)

Quanta said:


> 47-54°C


That sounds familiar.  GW 415 melts in a flash for me when it reaches 51-52°C.


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## soapman5 (Aug 29, 2021)

Quanta said:


> 47-54°C


Thanks, that is great


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## LynetteO (Aug 30, 2021)

I found & bought 5lbs of Golden Foods 415, 100% soy wax!!!    
Thank you @KiwiMoose for starting this thread; Thanks @Zany_in_CO for sharing “bunny’s” complied info into a link; ThankU2 @ResolvableOwl & @Mobjack Bay 4 Great information input. I’m excited to try soy wax in some !!!  
Was thinking of trying this formulation, but if someone wants to chime in, don’t hesitate.  16oz oils: 
OO 45%, soy wax 25%, CO 20%, Castor 10%. 3% SF, 2:1 water/lye ratio. Went lower superfat due to addition of coconut milk powder & sugar in lye solution.


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 30, 2021)

The recipe sounds good!  🕯

You might give it a try first to “understand” the molten soy wax, i. e. just barely melt up the soy wax + CO. Then add the (cold) liquid oils, and (with a thermometer at hand) stir and get a feeling how low your temperature can drop until you see the melt become turbid and thicken up. False trace can be really annoying (keep in mind, soy wax is made for candemaking, and candle makers want waxes that have a sharp melting point and are solid below – contrary to the needs of soapmakers). It's better you know from the beginning how cold is too cold for your soy wax.


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## LynetteO (Aug 30, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> The recipe sounds good!  🕯
> 
> You might give it a try first to “understand” the molten soy wax, i. e. just barely melt up the soy wax + CO. Then add the (cold) liquid oils, and (with a thermometer at hand) stir and get a feeling how low your temperature can drop until you see the melt become turbid and thicken up. False trace can be really annoying (keep in mind, soy wax is made for candemaking, and candle makers want waxes that have a sharp melting point and are solid below – contrary to the needs of soapmakers). It's better you know from the beginning how cold is too cold for your soy wax.


Thank you I’ll do that. I do have a tendency to soap at lower temps. Plus ya know, SCIENCE !

If I ran into false trace with soy, would I be able to just stick with hand stirring through false trace until fluid again, as I’ve done previously when I false trace reared it’s ugly head? Or is this a recipe that could be heated up with a gentle burst in microwave? I have NEVER done that before, but read some “experienced” soapers have done so on occasion.
Run thru soap calc LOOKS okay but palmitic/stearic NOT balanced!


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## meena.shah (Aug 31, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> Thank you I’ll do that. I do have a tendency to soap at lower temps. Plus ya know, SCIENCE !
> 
> If I ran into false trace with soy, would I be able to just stick with hand stirring through false trace until fluid again, as I’ve done previously when I false trace reared it’s ugly head? Or is this a recipe that could be heated up with a gentle burst in microwave? I have NEVER done that before, but read some “experienced” soapers have done so on occasion.
> Run thru soap calc LOOKS okay but palmitic/stearic NOT balanced!


Hi I would like to know that after mixing lye and oil if we get false trace we can burst in microwave


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 31, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> Thank you I’ll do that. I do have a tendency to soap at lower temps. Plus ya know, SCIENCE !
> 
> If I ran into false trace with soy, would I be able to just stick with hand stirring through false trace until fluid again, as I’ve done previously when I false trace reared it’s ugly head? Or is this a recipe that could be heated up with a gentle burst in microwave? I have NEVER done that before, but read some “experienced” soapers have done so on occasion.
> Run thru soap calc LOOKS okay but palmitic/stearic NOT balanced!


I've never had false trace with it, but I rarely soap below 38 degrees celsius - more often around 42 degrees ( just over 100 I think). My soap is very low in palmitic - only what i get from the OO, RBO and Avocado oils.


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 31, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> Run thru soap calc LOOKS okay but palmitic/stearic NOT balanced!


That's not a drama. It's just something to keep this in mind when you evaluate your soap after cure. You might like it personally! “Unbalanced” high-S/low-P soap can be lovely, don't see this as a “law”. Anecdotally, such soaps profit from longer cure times (2 months +), and they might need some more persuasion to get them lather up nicely.
The upside is, when you test your first bar after 3 or 4 weeks, and you already like it, they will only become better with time, and you have fantastic, long-lasting bars of soap, that won't mush up quickly in the soap dish.

Microwave – hmmm. IME, soy wax (or rather the canola wax I'm using) is remarkably slow-tracing, so with a generally slow-moving recipe, stirring might not be sufficient to step up the saponification reaction to produce enough heat, so that the solidification is stopped/reversed. You might give stirring a try, but when you see that it doesn't cut it, reserve the possibility of microwaving (be by a microwave oven, microwave-safe dishes).


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## LynetteO (Aug 31, 2021)

meena.shah said:


> Hi I would like to know that after mixing lye and oil if we get false trace we can burst in microwave


I am not the person to ask. I’ve never had to use microwave to reheat a thickening soap batter,  but did read on SMF that some experienced soap makers do so on occasion. Maybe start a new thread asking others when/if & for how long?


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## Rsapienza (Sep 1, 2021)

Question for you soy wax users. I just found a bag of Aztec LP 416. I think I was thinking of diving into wax tarts at some point and it was just all too much for me. So, here this bag sits. Can this be used in soaping? I'vte looked on their website and it says "This soy wax contains no additives and is both natural and kosher. This wax blends well with beeswax, paraffin, slack wax, and microcrystalline waxes". Their 415 says, "This is a pure soy wax that contain no additives and is natural and kosher. This wax blends well with beeswax, paraffin, slack wax, and microcrystalline waxes". The only difference being the word "pure" in the 415. HELP!!! The website does not provide any additional information.


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 1, 2021)

It's comparatively high-melting (130-135°F from what I found), i. e. very effective for hard soap, but it might be stubborn in CP recipes (false trace). Still sounds like worth a try!


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 1, 2021)

I agree - just don't soap too cool - I wouldn't let it get under 100 degrees in your language.  Let us know and report back!  It's cheaper than 415 so I'd be interested to know.


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## Zany_in_CO (Sep 1, 2021)

Rsapienza said:


> Can this be used in soaping?


I agree with @ResolvableOwl & @KiwiMoose -- looks fine to me. Personally, I would limit its use to 10% in CP and aim for INS of 145 - 160 on *SoapCalc*, but that's just me. 

Other practical uses for soy wax:
*Vegan Lip Balm*
*Gardener's Hand Balm* presented by P. Allen Smith (an actual gardener! )


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## soapman5 (Sep 2, 2021)

So I got my PureSoy S100, from an European online seller (one of Premium  Soy Wax For Candles | All Seasons Wax Company distributors). It came in a plastic bag, with no label. It smelled like stearin candles. Well, I hope it is the PureSoy s100.

I melted the CO first and then 10 % SW (it melted fast). After it all melted I added the other oils. I mixed the oils all the time but I also stickblended them (anxiety much..) I waited until 37 °C (98.6 °F) before adding the lye (that was about 40 °C/104 °F) and it still was clear (not opaque). I made a very light trace before I poured. I also added 1 % table salt, 2 % citric acid.

N.B. In the recipe I used a lot of canola oil because I was afraid that it would trace too fast. Lye conc was 34 %.

I made a small batch in a silicon loaf that I covered with a plastic film. I unmolded and cut the loaf after about 16 hours. It was still a bit soft, which usually do not happen when I add salt.

Picture nr 1: the end of the load.




Picture nr 2: the cut surface. There are air bubbles and some stearic spots? I didn't cut with a wire cutter, just an ordinary soap cutter.



I thought that PureSoy s100 was ok to work with, but I probably should stay over 40 °C/104 °F.

(btw I did a smaller batch in 6 silicon molds. I soaped around 40 °C and didn't stickblend the oils before and didn't introduce any air that way -  no spots.)


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## Rsapienza (Sep 2, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I agree - just don't soap too cool - I wouldn't let it get under 100 degrees in your language.  Let us know and report back!  It's cheaper than 415 so I'd be interested to know.


I will definitely keep you guys posted. Plan to make a test batch this week.


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 9, 2021)

I just found another use case for soap from soy wax & friends. Back then, when I titrated the SAP of my canola wax, I had to make a slightly lye-heavy soap from it. I grated up the remainders and added them into the batter of a HP soap. High hopes back then, that it would dissolve and end up in the matrix together with the other soaping oils.
Turns out this was not the case, lol. Today I eventually started using one of these bars, and noticed they're a bit “scratchy” – in fact, the ground hard soap makes up for a mild, residue-free exfoliant, when added as fine, crumbly “confetti”.

Time will show how the superior “grip” that it lends to the bar works out, and if it slows down how quickly the bar would dissolve by the sink/shower/bathtub.


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## LynetteO (Oct 17, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> I found & bought 5lbs of Golden Foods 415, 100% soy wax!!!
> I’m excited to try soy wax in some !!!


Finally made some soap with my GW415 yesterday. Went with 40%OO, 25%CO, 20% soy wax, 10% castor & 5% Shea butter. Scented with 50/50 split peppermint E/O & lavender E/O. It smells sooooooooooo good! Swirl sux but didn’t pre-plan. Had one idea & then last minute changed my mind. Can’t wait to try the flower, as it’s my tester bar for 1st time recipe.


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 17, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> Finally made some soap with my GW415 yesterday. Went with 40%OO, 25%CO, 20% soy wax, 10% castor & 5% Shea butter. Scented with 50/50 split peppermint E/O & lavender E/O. It smells sooooooooooo good! Swirl sux but didn’t pre-plan. Had one idea & then last minute changed my mind. Can’t wait to try the flower, as it’s my tester bar for 1st time recipe.
> 
> 
> View attachment 61777


Love that colour - it's so pretty!  I was just wondering how evyone is getting on with their soy wax experiments. How about yours @Rsapienza?


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## LynetteO (Oct 17, 2021)

@KiwiMoose The color is *Spring* from _Nurture Soap_ given 2me as a freebie with my latest order. The color matches the smell fantastically. Like a peppermint cream mint.  This was a 5 oil batch. I’d love to formulate a 4oil bar using GW415 with INS (145-160) using SAP of .144 for NaOH & using lower CO than the 25% in this 1st test batch. I think I may have to wait until after Christmas however. I still have soap dishes to make.


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## Rsapienza (Nov 12, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Love that colour - it's so pretty!  I was just wondering how evyone is getting on with their soy wax experiments. How about yours @Rsapienza?



I finally made it! I made a small batch, 24 oz oils. I used a MB 50/50 lye solution that had sugar and silk already added to it. I used CM for the remaining liquid. I used a 36%lye concentration.
23% RBO
20% Soy Wax
16% CO
15% Mango Butter
11% SAO
10% SB
5% Castor

I had some oils and butters I need to get rid of…LOL, hence the variety
It did thicken up quite a bit. I had to really bang my mold, but other than that, things went pretty smooth. I scented with Dewberry from WSP and added right before pour. I took a small shaving and washed my hands with it. It didn’t seem to produce too many bubbles, but we’ll see what happens after cure.


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## KiwiMoose (Nov 12, 2021)

In my family ( I have three sisters) SB is used on messenger to mean 'Stupid Bi***' in a friendly, sisterly way of course   What does it mean in your recipe?


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## ResolvableOwl (Nov 12, 2021)

I wondered too. After some thorough research, I've concluded she indeed means finely ground stick blenders. (a boring second place goes to shea butter, via the infamous abbreviation list).


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## Rsapienza (Nov 12, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> In my family ( I have three sisters) SB is used on messenger to mean 'Stupid Bi***' in a friendly, sisterly way of course   What does it mean in your recipe?


Shea Butter


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## KiwiMoose (Nov 12, 2021)

Rsapienza said:


> Shea Butter


Oh I see!  Now i really do feel like a SB


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## ResolvableOwl (Dec 12, 2021)

An unknowing parcel delivery guy has handed over this early christmas present to me:



Per the article description, it is canola oil, partially hydrogenated to an iodine value of 45–55.
Yes! Finally some numbers to work with .
My first impulse was to ask the manufacturer if they wouldn't have a GC analysis/FA profile to share with me. On the other hand, as long as we have only a rough conception how really the elaidic acid works (wrt soap hardness), a precise profile isn't too helpful anyway – we wouldn't gain much beyond guesstimates.

So, let's guesstimate on our own!

We can get this interesting graphic from this publication:





Composition change of canola oil during hydrogenation. Unfortunately C18:1 isn't further broken down to oleic/elaidic. But we see the IV go down from about 120 to 50 (stars in the right panel) – exactly where OBW073 is located! At that 360 minute mark, on the left, we see that we can expect next to zero remaining PUFAs as well as about *40% stearic acid*.
Now, in contact with hydrogenation catalysts, there is an equilibrium between oleic and elaidic acid. How this looks exactly is tricky to estimate (and depends on everything: reaction conditions, catalysts and time in particular). The best I could find on the quick was this paper. They however stop too early at IV ≈ 70. But the trend they see is that elaidic levels rise about twice as fast as the stearic (which is of limited use in the IV regions we're looking at). I loosely remember that, in equilibrium, cis-trans isomerisation favours the trans variant by somewhere 2:1…5:1.

Once again, exact values aren't even particularly helpful as long as we don't know how to treat elaidic acid in terms of its properties. It is evident that it is “harder” than oleic acid, but on the other hand it's also less hardening than stearic acid.

This is, for now, my approach to this situation: I theoretically divide the C18:1 part 2:1 into 40% elaidic and 20% oleic acid. I also assume that elaidic acid is about half the way between oleic and stearic acid, i. e. 2 g elaidic acid contribute to hardness/longevity/creamy numbers like 1 g stearic acid. For this canola wax, I end up with a working hypothesis of effective 60% stearic acid content.
How convenient that there is an oil in soap calculators that matches these properties quite well! *Kokum butter* is listed with 56% stearic (close enough to my guesstimate), 4% palmitic (exactly as canola), and the remainder nearly pure oleic acid. IV and INS are, of course, off the chart. The SAP is 0.135, a tiny bit too high for the 0.133 of canola oil, but reasonably close to offset with some 0.5% superfat discount (at typical usage rates). The melting range of kokum butter (37–40°C) is quite a bit lower than the specification of the OBW073 (47–54°C); we'll see how this pans out, especially in oil blends. Anyway, a reminder for the annoyances of false trace can never be wrong .


Needless to say that I will keep you well supplied with updates how the OBW073 is performing!


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## KiwiMoose (Dec 12, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> An unknowing parcel delivery guy has handed over this early christmas present to me:
> View attachment 63165
> 
> 
> ...


Eeeeek!  I fell asleep halfway through, but I do want to understand.  So in layperson's terms - can I use it instead of soy wax and will it provide similar or different properties?  Shall I do a sample recipe using Kokum butter as the 'replacement in the calculator?
ETA - I just did that and it affects my hardness and longevity numbers ( although we know that soy wax is not accurately represented in the calculators so it may actually be similar) - it reduces it by about 7% and also the creamy lather by about the same.  However, the conditioning increases by about 10%.  Your thoughts?


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## ResolvableOwl (Dec 12, 2021)

Essentially the same reasoning should apply to soy wax. I have no access to actual soy wax (honestly, I don't care either) to compare partially hydrogenated soy vs. canola, but for now I assume they can be treated mostly the same. AFAICS the GW415 is close enough to OBW073 (final IV, melting range) – that also makes sense from its on-label use as candle fuel!

Be assured that swapping the name of soy wax from “fully hydrogenated soy wax” to “kokum butter” will _not_ change your soap! It does just change the numbers that the calculator spits out, hence possibly the way in which you are interpreting these numbers in relation to the observations of your physical soaps (for sure you yourself know your soaps better than the makers of the calculators ). Unless you're unhappy with your soaps, there is no need to actually modify your recipes.

My kokum trick is based on … well, laziness. In my observations, the fully hydrogenated option isn't a good choice for “soft” vegetable-oil-waxes, since they provide significantly less hardening than, say, fully hydrogenated oils or FFA-type palm stearin (technical palmitic acid). Until recently, I usually eyeballed it and divided the portions of my (retail-candle harvested) canola wax by a mix of 100% and 27.5% hydrogenated soy. Now that I got through all the numbers, I'm now somewhat confident that kokum butter is an easier yet about as accurate replacement. Time to challenge my recent optimism with reality .


tl;dr:
IV≈50: soft oil waxes (soy, canola … based) ≈ use “kokum butter”
IV≈0: hard oil waxes ≈ use “Soybean, fully hydrogenated (soy wax)”
unless there is evidence to do better.


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## ResolvableOwl (Dec 27, 2021)

Some details to the soy wax part of my scented candle thread:

With a hugely scientific sample size of 1 (plus, unknown wax type, and unknown FOs/additives), my experience was that (this) soy is harder/stiffer/less “sticky” when cold/solid with a more even and very appealing gloss (that whoever made candle managed to completely ruin with an obviously inappropriate cooling protocol).

The soy melts slower, and once molten/in a soap batter, it was slightly more prone to solidification/false trace than the canola waxes I've worked with so far.

I'm also under the impression that, once in the soap (settling/unmoulding/early curing), it is slower to “bite” wrt hardness/solidification of the young soap. I unmoulded the soap columns after CPOP + 4 days of waiting (distracted by the holidays ). Even then, they were just barely hard enough to not entirely lose their shape.

All the ugly ends and top pieces got squeezed into that hexagonal bar (I should probably post a tutorial how to do this, once I'm confident enough how to shoot it without contaminating my camera, lol).


Bottom line: This soy wax might behave ideal for candles (I haven't tested it in a candle, but canola wax isn't always the most cooperative here). When it comes to soap, canola wax appears to be similar, or slightly more easily to work with in pretty much all respects.
Sounds like I'll stay with canola wax for the time being.


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## Mobjack Bay (Dec 30, 2021)

I noticed tonight that Candle Science is carrying Ecosoya wax. They’re getting it from a company called Kerax in the U.K.  Does anyone know this company‘s wax?  The pillar blend is described as 100% soy wax and it melts at 131F, so a little bit higher than 415, which melts at 121-125F. If there are no additives, as described, and the melting point is higher, is the %stearic likely to be higher than it is in 415?  If so, I might give it a try.


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## LynetteO (Jan 22, 2022)

LynetteO said:


> Finally made some soap with my GW415 yesterday. Went with 40%OO, 25%CO, 20% soy wax, 10% castor & 5% Shea butter. Scented with 50/50 split peppermint E/O & lavender E/O. It smells sooooooooooo good! Swirl sux but didn’t pre-plan. Had one idea & then last minute changed my mind. Can’t wait to try the flower, as it’s my tester bar for 1st time recipe.
> 
> 
> View attachment 61777


I am now using one of these bars in the shower & love it A LOT! Going to make another batch on Monday! Soaped around 95-100 F & will probably do the same. Will peek at my notes to see how fast trace happened with recipe.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 23, 2022)

LynetteO said:


> I am now using one of these bars in the shower & love it A LOT! Going to make another batch on Monday! Soaped around 95-100 F & will probably do the same. Will peek at my notes to see how fast trace happened with recipe.


Woot! What makes you love it? How does it differ (when using) to your previous soaps?


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## LynetteO (Jan 23, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> Woot! What makes you love it? How does it differ (when using) to your previous soaps?


It’s so CREAMY & a hard bar but yet still has a soft feel while in use. No slime, no squish.


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## LynetteO (Jan 24, 2022)

@KiwiMoose I'd forgotten that I made two soaps with the soy wax. One with lard & one with OO. I know you personally don’t use animal fats. That being said. The lard bar has thicker, tighter lather, heavier as well. However the OO lather seems more stable & fluffier. The OO soap is older. Top lather blob is Manteca @ 35% with GW415 @ 30% & bottom is OO @40% with GW415 @ 20%.  Probably shouldn’t compare them because OO bar also higher in CO by 7% @ 25% vs 18% CO in lard/soy


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## LynetteO (Jan 24, 2022)

LynetteO said:


> @KiwiMoose I'd forgotten that I made two soaps with the soy wax. One with lard & one with OO.


For anyone that might care…
Came back to the lather blobs 15 min later & both dissipating but OO still had fluff just more see thru. The creaminess of the lard lather at the end when scooped off the edge was incredibly *lotion* like. The OO lather was slick yes but not what I’d consider to be lotion like.


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## Olive Oil (Jan 25, 2022)

soapman5 said:


> So I got my PureSoy S100, from an European online seller (one of Premium Soy Wax For Candles | All Seasons Wax Company distributors). It came in a plastic bag, with no label. It smelled like stearin candles. Well, I hope it is the PureSoy s100.


Hi soapman5, would you mind sharing which online seller you bought your PureSoyS100 in Europe from?  I have only found this available from US/UK or Australian sellers. The soy wax I currently use has additives and I would love to find a soy wax that is pure.  Thanks very much.


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## LynetteO (Jan 27, 2022)

LynetteO said:


> Finally made some soap with my GW415 yesterday. Went with 40%OO, 25%CO, 20% soy wax, 10% castor & 5% Shea butter.


Bar in use.


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## Iluminameluna (Feb 18, 2022)

I've used an oil from a warehouse type store overseas that was a blend of olive 80% and soy 20%. It was fairly cheap for what it was, made a nice firm soap bar that made very nice creamy lather in a region with soft water.
At the time I was using actual ocean water, filtered for debris and such, to dissolve the lye and because most folks didn't have our type of enclosed bathrooms, I also tried adding some hydrogenated soy at 15% of the oils in one batch of this type of soap.
Unfortunately I didn't get much feedback from my friend who had volunteered to use it. But in my household, the only complaint was that I hadn't added any scent, but it had a lovely creamy lather and didn't feel drying.
I left it to cure for 3 months, but only because it was a large olive oil % and it was the wet season.


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## winusuren (Oct 6, 2022)

senaraj said:


> Hello,
> I need help to decide if this recipe will work out for doing swirl designs. Thank you in advance. I am willing to use a blend of Tea tree, lavender and Rosemary essential oil. Also Planning to use oxide colors and planning to soap at room temperature i.e... at 33 celcius
> 
> View attachment 55900


Hi..Did you try this recipe? I'm from India and have a thought to try soy wax from vedaoils in cp soaps.


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