# Soapers Not Using Chelators.



## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 11, 2021)

I've stumbled onto HSCG (Handcrafted Soap & Cosmetics Guild) website searching for soap info' which led me to viewing other Soaper's Websites, I enjoy seeing what other soap crafters use in their soap & their artistic uniqueness each soaper has, it's all so interesting. Yes i'm a self proclaimed soap nerd .  

What struck me a bit odd the websites I looked at total of 4 "none" of them used any form of a chelator in their soaps, either they didn't list it as a ingredient or just don't use it, I can't imagine all of them not using any at all? so strange, almost like it's the norm not to use a chelator of any kind, However I saw some nicely designed websites & soap's.  The average cost of a bar of soap is $9.00 ea.  As much work that is involved creating soap & cost of materials, sounds pretty reasonable to me.! 

I'm so afraid of the dreaded orange spots ( DOS ) I use a chelator religiously 'sodium gluconate' the thought of my soap getting DOS on a soap i've given away makes me want to cringe, Truly! lol .

I think I close on that note' Night nite soaping family.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 11, 2021)

Well, if they have that much confidence into the quality of their supplies, and as long as they are keeping the more rancidity-prone oils at a reasonable minimum, they might get away with this. I also am not sure how widespread knowledge about how to identify DOS and (more importantly) who is responsible for it, is with end customers.

Speaking of my pre-DIY soap me, I have definitely had contact with DOS-like decay in industrial soap, multiple times. But I thought that it was my fault/the warm and moist bathroom/expired/beyond best-by date etc.

I don't expect that the majority of consumers are aware that it's their right, their duty to insist on rancidity-free soap!


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## Primrose (Oct 11, 2021)

I don't even know what chelators are to be honest, so clearly I'm not one that uses them


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## dibbles (Oct 11, 2021)

I think a great many soap makers don't even know about or use chelators. I rarely see it even mentioned outside of this forum. As for the end user, they know even less. I give everyone an inexpensive soap lift the first time I give them soap. And later have seen the soap sitting in a dish without the lift and in one case - on some kind of decorative metal. That soap was all over discolored and I can't believe nobody noticed the smell.


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## artemis (Oct 11, 2021)

I only knew that chelators were used to help prevent soap scum. I never heard of it being used to stave off DOS. I also never heard of chelators outside of this forum. As a small-time, mostly hobby soaper, I haven't used one and I very rarely experience DOS.


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## dibbles (Oct 11, 2021)

artemis said:


> I only knew that chelators were used to help prevent soap scum.


This is why I use a chelator.


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## Megan (Oct 11, 2021)

I had a lady ask me at an event if my soap leaves scum in the sink. I had several soaps on the table so I mentioned that most soaps will leave some residue with use, but that most of my soaps have citric acid or sodium gluconate in them to lessen that. I didn't want to completely tell her they won't leave any scum at all...because I never know if someone actually cleans their sinks regularly or whatever. 

As for your question, I would say it's actually more uncommon to use chelators...most locals I know don't use them. None of the big soapers that I follow use them either.


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## Ladka (Oct 11, 2021)

I have only a very vague idea about chelators, not much beyond "having read about it". I usually don't have a problem with DOS, I might have encountered it once or twice. I think I'll stay with my philosophy "less (additives) is better".


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## DeeAnna (Oct 11, 2021)

artemis said:


> I only knew that chelators were used to help prevent soap scum. I never heard of it being used to stave off DOS...



I get the feeling this is a pretty common misunderstanding -- that chelators _only _help to reduce soap scum. I think people don't quite realize that less soap scum = more lather, so that's a related side benefit.

While less soap scum and more lather are certainly useful benefits, another important reason to use a chelator is to ensure the soap has a reasonably long shelf life in the package and on the soap dish. A chelator works by binding up the trace metals that accelerate rancidity (DOS).

Metals naturally occur in soap due to the production equipment used to harvest and process fats, the trace metals in water, lye, and additives, any metallic contamination on our hands and in the air, etc. If you only use soap at home, use the soap promptly, and have good control of your storage and handling methods, your soap might be fine without a chelator. But oxidation of soap and fat is a natural, normal environmental process. Given the right conditions, anyone's soap can become rancid.

If you give or sell your soap, a chelator (and antioxidant) can be really valuable additions. I have found from experience that people don't always know how to store handmade soap properly, so the soap that remains fine in my home has turned rancid at another person's home. I also know the soap I sell in a local gift shop is exposed to sunlight, bright shop lighting, customer's hands, etc. for weeks, and that can also increase the chance of rancidity in soap. For my soap, I think it's wise to use a chelator (and antioxidant) as insurance against rancidity and the chelator also helps my soap lather well, so users are happy (and often come back for more.)

Like so many soapy issues, whether you use a chelator or not depends on the situation.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 11, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Well, if they have that much confidence into the quality of their supplies, and as long as they are keeping the more rancidity-prone oils at a reasonable minimum, they might get away with this. I also am not sure how widespread knowledge about how to identify DOS and (more importantly) who is responsible for it, is with end customers.
> 
> Speaking of my pre-DIY soap me, I have definitely had contact with DOS-like decay in industrial soap, multiple times. But I thought that it was my fault/the warm and moist bathroom/expired/beyond best-by date etc.
> 
> I don't expect that the majority of consumers are aware that it's their right, their duty to insist on rancidity-free soap!


I too  thought of this Soapers Are Keeping Oils That Are Prone To Rancidity to a minimum.


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## TheGecko (Oct 11, 2021)

The only thing I add to my soaps outside of oils and butters is Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay and not once in the last 2 1/2 years has anyone reported any issues other than I need to make more.  I think if I were to tell someone that I added EDTA or Citric Acid to prevent my soap from going rancid, they wouldn't want to buy my soap.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 11, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> I get the feeling this is a pretty common misunderstanding -- that chelators _only _help to reduce soap scum (and less soap scum = more lather). While less soap scum and more lather are certainly useful benefits, another important reason to use a chelator is to ensure the soap has a reasonably long shelf life in the package and on the soap dish. A chelator works by binding up the trace metals that trigger these problems.
> 
> Metals naturally occur in soap due to the production equipment used to harvest and process fats, the trace metals in water, lye, and additives, any metallic contamination on our hands and in the air, etc. If you only use soap at home, use the soap promptly, and have good control of your storage and handling methods, your soap might be fine without a chelator. But oxidation of soap and fat is a natural, normal environmental process. Given the right conditions, anyone's soap can become rancid.
> 
> ...


Let me ask you if you don't mind what "antioxidant" do you use?  i'd like to implement an antioxidant too.  We cant be careful enough, especially for the reasons you mentioned above. 

Little Story:
I gave soap away to a friend' she loved how it looked in her bathroom & never used, months later 1/2 year or longer I told her "Oh No You Gotta Use It" It's not designed to set out on your Bathroom Counter... I instantly started to worry about the creepy crawly's that could be lurking in the soap.   

Thank you for explaining the reason for "chelators" & "antioxidant"  its valuable information & you've explained it in simple terms, that we all understand   .


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 11, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> The only thing I add to my soaps outside of oils and butters is Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay and not once in the last 2 1/2 years has anyone reported any issues other than I need to make more.  I think if I were to tell someone that I added EDTA or Citric Acid to prevent my soap from going rancid, they wouldn't want to buy my soap.


You have a great balanced soap, when soap oils are near perfect "no DOS".    Definitely agree "i'm gonna venture to say, only a guess" most consumers / customers that purchase our handmade artisan soap's are buying it to avoid the Chems & unhealthy ingredients.


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## Cat&Oak (Oct 11, 2021)

I honestly never learned about chelated soap before I read this forum. I went over to my sister in laws the other day. She loves to use my soap as bathroom decoration. She pulls out some 8 year old boxes of my soap. Out of curiosity I pulled them out too look at them. They had lost all their scent but there wasn't any dos on either of them.


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## glendam (Oct 11, 2021)

I use a chelator (lately all of the time, but until a few months ago, only half of the time) but I do not think I have listed it as an ingredient in my website (Sometimes I am more specific on the actual product labeling),  I try to keep the wording of the ingredients as casual and generic, rather than an all inclusive list, I start off with "Ingredients include",  It is good point though, I should probably update it.


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## Johnez (Oct 11, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> The only thing I add to my soaps outside of oils and butters is Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay and not once in the last 2 1/2 years has anyone reported any issues other than I need to make more._  I think if I were to tell someone that I added EDTA or Citric Acid to prevent my soap from going rancid, they wouldn't want to buy my soap._


I suspect this is the reason right here. Home/hobby soapers want the absolute best and understand the reasons behind DOS and the tradeoffs made with using certain ingredients. However, consumers these days are hyper aware of chemicals and anything foreign sounding. "Chemicals" signal that your product is not pure or *needs* the chemicals. Interesting times.


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## TheGecko (Oct 11, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> You have a great balanced soap, when soap oils are near perfect "no DOS".    Definitely agree "i'm gonna venture to say, only a guess" most consumers / customers that purchase our handmade artisan soap's are buying it to avoid the Chems & unhealthy ingredients.



Thank you.  Winning over my husband was tough...lifetime Dial user...but now he is one of my testers and gives me really good feedback.  And I should perhaps mention, only because I was thinking about it while I was just in the shower, that I have a metal shower caddy.  It's chrome I think, bought it quite a few years ago and I haven't had any issues with my soap and there are at least three bars on it.

Exactly.  One of the questions I always get it is "What is Sodium Lactate?  I thought your soap was homemade."  I then explain that it is a liquid salt that helps to harden the soap to make it easier to unmold.  



glendam said:


> I try to keep the wording of the ingredients as casual and generic, rather than an all inclusive list, I start off with "Ingredients include", It is good point though, I should probably update it.



Mine is:  _Ingredients:  Olive Oil, Distilled Water, Coconut Oil, Palm Oil (RSPO), Cocoa Butter, Shea Butter, Sodium Hydroxide, Castor Oil, Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay.  May contain fragrance and colorants._

I went with the above because 1) I don't always add scent or color to my soaps, but I do add everything else.  2) It's a lot cheaper and less time consuming to print a pack of 750 labels than it is to have to constantly have to constantly edit them and then print out a couple of sheets.

Now I will have to make new labels for my Cranberry Salsa because I put Cranberry Seeds on it.


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## cmzaha (Oct 11, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> The only thing I add to my soaps outside of oils and butters is Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay and not once in the last 2 1/2 years has anyone reported any issues other than I need to make more.  I think if I were to tell someone that I added EDTA or Citric Acid to prevent my soap from going rancid, they wouldn't want to buy my soap.


I never had a person question the additives and not buy a bar of soap because of my additives in all my years of selling. Maybe I was just lucky.


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## lenarenee (Oct 11, 2021)

We have some stupidly hard water here. Plumbers are expensive. We're also always in some level of drought.  I consider it irresponsible  of myself to NOT use a chelator. My hope is that it improves rinse-ability and saves water, plus prevents scrum building up in the pipes.


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## TheGecko (Oct 11, 2021)

cmzaha said:


> I never had a person question the additives and not buy a bar of soap because of my additives in all my years of selling. Maybe I was just lucky.



I've gotten:  Do you use fresh goat milk?  (I bought it fresh from the store)  Does your soap contain lye?  (Not anymore)   When I mentioned to a friend that I use TD in my soap, I got a lecture on using metals and chemicals in my soap.  (I just shook my head and walked away)


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## Johnez (Oct 11, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> I've gotten:  Do you use fresh goat milk?  (I bought it fresh from the store)  Does your soap contain lye?  (Not anymore)   When I mentioned to a friend that I use TD in my soap, I got a lecture on using metals and chemicals in my soap.  (I just shook my head and walked away)


I love the TD one. I wonder if they pulled all their teeth out and replaced their bones with "all natural" wood. Calcium *is* a metal after all. Maybe it's "heavy" metal they have issue with, just don't wear your Judas Priest or Metallica shirts around em if that's the case.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 11, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> When I mentioned to a friend that I use TD in my soap, I got a lecture on using metals and chemicals in my soap. (I just shook my head and walked away)


SODIUM!!!11


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## lenarenee (Oct 11, 2021)

@TheGecko.   Curious; did you mean to use the angry face? Are you angry at our water conditions?


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## TheGecko (Oct 11, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> @TheGecko.   Curious; did you mean to use the angry face? Are you angry at our water conditions?



All fixed.  Was in a hurry.


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## lenarenee (Oct 11, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> All fixed.  Was in a hurry.


 
Not a problem...just couldn't think of why that would make someone angry so I figured it was a mistake. But now I realize that someone could take that to mean that ALL people would be irresponsible. Going to reword it a little.


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## SoapLover1 (Oct 12, 2021)

Just wanted to chime in to The Gecko. There are Rules & Regulations on Labeling. You must list ALL ingredients in that Specific Soap. You can Not list things as, “ May Contain”! It may be easier but it’s incorrect.


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## Megan (Oct 12, 2021)

Johnez said:


> I suspect this is the reason right here. Home/hobby soapers want the absolute best and understand the reasons behind DOS and the tradeoffs made with using certain ingredients. However, consumers these days are hyper aware of chemicals and anything foreign sounding. "Chemicals" signal that your product is not pure or *needs* the chemicals. Interesting times.


This is a factor for sure. I had someone mention they were "trying to get away from chemicals" in their products and I was like but I use sodium gluconate (which means nothing to them but I'm like it's made from corn syrup and it's super biodegradeable!). I use fragrance oils as well though so I wasn't going to argue with this person over the absurdity of the "chemical free" movement. She wasn't my target market.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 12, 2021)

@Peachy Clean Soap -- I use ROE, rosemary oleoresin extract, as my antioxidant.

@SoapLover1 -- My personal opinion is exactly same as yours, but our opinion is only that -- opinion.

In the USA, plain soap as defined by the FDA does NOT require an ingredients list at all. If you do provide an ingredients list, it is lawful to provide a list that is incomplete or says "may contain" or "saponified fats of".

You can discuss the wisdom of providing a complete and correct ingredients list, but don't insist the law requires all ingredients to be listed for plain soap, because the law does not require this.

An excellent resource for understanding the US rules for labeling is Marie Gale. Or go direct to the FDA and CPSC and read the regulations there.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 12, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> @Peachy Clean Soap -- I use ROE, rosemary oleoresin extract, as my antioxidant.
> 
> @SoapLover1 -- My personal opinion is exactly same as yours, but our opinion is only that -- opinion.
> 
> ...


 Now that you mentioned "rosemary oleoresin" RO you've jogged my memory' thats right!  
goodness i've forgotten about RO, in fact I ordered RO & never received it, I was sent another 8 gallons of PO instead of RO making my now #3 - 8 gallon's containers of PO, I wanted to assure it stayed fresh by adding RO. 
I did freeze two of the containers though, I'm gonna order some this morning.  I haven't ever used it before & remembered thinking prior to ordering, it was kinda costly for such a small amount.  
Thanks ahh million appreciate your help.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 12, 2021)

Cat&Oak said:


> I honestly never learned about chelated soap before I read this forum. I went over to my sister in laws the other day. She loves to use my soap as bathroom decoration. She pulls out some 8 year old boxes of my soap. Out of curiosity I pulled them out too look at them. They had lost all their scent but there wasn't any dos on either of them.


Thats just wonderful' you created a perfect balanced Bar Soap


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## TheGecko (Oct 12, 2021)

SoapLover1 said:


> Just wanted to chime in to The Gecko. There are Rules & Regulations on Labeling. You must list ALL ingredients in that Specific Soap. You can Not list things as, “ May Contain”! It may be easier but it’s incorrect.



As noted by @DeeAnna...no I don't.  I may not know everything there is to know about soap making (hello fatty acids), but I have done extensive research on the legalities and requirements of making and selling soap in the US; not only on a federal level, but also as it applies to my state, county and city.  My soap labels meet all requirements right down to the size of the font.  

Now my labels for my Lotion Bars and Bath Salts are more extensive, but then again, they fall under Cosmetic rules as opposed to True Soap rules.


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## Bubble Agent (Oct 12, 2021)

SoapLover1 said:


> Just wanted to chime in to The Gecko. There are Rules & Regulations on Labeling. You must list ALL ingredients in that Specific Soap. You can Not list things as, “ May Contain”! It may be easier but it’s incorrect.



Are you perhaps thinking of the cosmetic label regulations in the EU/UK/EEA? We who live here have to abide exactly by what you are saying.  But after reading about the rules and regs of America you are way more free when it comes to making soap, and the labeling.

_(But we also have to get safety assessments also, but that is not the topic here)_


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## Cat&Oak (Oct 12, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Thats just wonderful' you created a perfect balanced Bar Soap


Thanks Peachy this particular recipe was too cleansing in my opinion so I reworked it so who knows how long my current recipe would last.


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## paradisi (Oct 12, 2021)

Just as an fyi, colorants, even mineral ones, can be allergens. I know a person who's allergic to titanium dioxide, for example.


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## cmzaha (Oct 12, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> We have some stupidly hard water here. Plumbers are expensive. We're also always in some level of drought.  I consider it irresponsible  of myself to NOT use a chelator. My hope is that it improves rinse-ability and saves water, plus prevents scrum building up in the pipes.


I lived in a house with old plumbing in an area with hard water, so adding in chelators and cutting superfat to 2% cut my plumbing at least 50%. When I eventually added SG to my EDTA my plumbing bills went down even more. When I used just Citric acid it help but not as much as EDTA at 0.5% but the addition of Sodium Gluconate at 0.5% really made a difference. When I move to Winnemucca NV I will most likely up my SG since the well water is really hard if I do not go with a water softner. 



TheGecko said:


> I've gotten:  Do you use fresh goat milk?  (I bought it fresh from the store)  Does your soap contain lye?  (Not anymore)   When I mentioned to a friend that I use TD in my soap, I got a lecture on using metals and chemicals in my soap.  (I just shook my head and walked away)


The only question I really had was my use of Palm Oil from a doctor. After I listened to his rant I gave him my opinion of buying and using palm oil, the fact that it is the only income some villagers have to feed their families, he walked away but came back later and purchased several bars of soap. He became a regular customer for a few years until I stopped that particular market.


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## maryloucb (Oct 12, 2021)

I don't use chelators and I think it's perfectly valid that people don't want to add things such as TD or any artificial colorants or fragrances. We are all different and want different things out of our soaps.


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## Trinbago27 (Oct 12, 2021)

Question…does using distilled water address this issue?


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## AliOop (Oct 12, 2021)

Trinbago27 said:


> Question…does using distilled water address this issue?


It helps, but doesn't fully address the issue. You still have to deal with the water that is being used to wash with the soap. If that water is hard, you will need chelators to assist with lathering, avoid soap scum, and limit DOS.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 12, 2021)

Trinbago27 said:


> Question…does using distilled water address this issue?



Using distilled or reverse osmosis water to make your soap is helpful, but it's not a surefire way to extend the shelf life. Metal contamination can come from many sources, not just water. 

edit: If you're talking about using distilled water to make your soap thinking that will help with soap scum, nope, that won't work. See AliOop's comment.


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 12, 2021)

I've never added chelators or ROE to my soap.  I am tempted to add ROE but have not found any reason to do so thus far.
I do sell, and have regular customers now, plus I use all the soap myself and some of it is over a year old and seem to have no problem with DOS.  I have had three batches go dossy in my three years of soaping and they seemed to go dossy early in their lives, rather than later. To this day I don't know why it has happened because they haven't been treated any differently to my other soaps.


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## Rsapienza (Oct 12, 2021)

I have only ever heard of chelators on this forum. I didn't use one for a few years and the only time I experienced DOS was when a bar or 2 touched some metal. I have about 3 shoe boxes under my bed full of thinner soap slices that are anywhere from 1-3 years old, (I used to save a slice of every batch I made) and no DOS. After reading all of the different posts on here regarding chelators, I do use one now. I do not have any issue with my soaps, but I do not have hard water either. I know many of my family members up north do, and I'm sure some customers do as well. I certainly wouldn't want to turn someone off of handmade soaps due to soap scum.
I have never had anyone even look at my labels...LOL


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## AAShillito (Oct 12, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> I've stumbled onto HSCG (Handcrafted Soap & Cosmetics Guild) website searching for soap info' which led me to viewing other Soaper's Websites, I enjoy seeing what other soap crafters use in their soap & their artistic uniqueness each soaper has, it's all so interesting. Yes i'm a self proclaimed soap nerd .
> 
> What struck me a bit odd the websites I looked at total of 4 "none" of them used any form of a chelator in their soaps, either they didn't list it as a ingredient or just don't use it, I can't imagine all of them not using any at all? so strange, almost like it's the norm not to use a chelator of any kind, However I saw some nicely designed websites & soap's.  The average cost of a bar of soap is $9.00 ea.  As much work that is involved creating soap & cost of materials, sounds pretty reasonable to me.!
> 
> ...


I feel the same way. The fear of DOS ( after all my hard work and cost of materials) has led to putting sodium gluconate  in every batch.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 12, 2021)

Bubble Agent said:


> Are you perhaps thinking of the cosmetic label regulations in the EU/UK/EEA? We who live here have to abide exactly by what you are saying.  But after reading about the rules and regs of America you are way more free when it comes to making soap, and the labeling.
> 
> _(But we also have to get safety assessments also, but that is not the topic here)_


Not to worry if your on topic or off topic, your free to express your thoughts. its great when so many chime in. .  Thank you


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 12, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> As noted by @DeeAnna...no I don't.  I may not know everything there is to know about soap making (hello fatty acids), but I have done extensive research on the legalities and requirements of making and selling soap in the US; not only on a federal level, but also as it applies to my state, county and city.  My soap labels meet all requirements right down to the size of the font.
> 
> Now my labels for my Lotion Bars and Bath Salts are more extensive, but then again, they fall under Cosmetic rules as opposed to True Soap rules.


Oh great point in regards to " Cosmetic Rules"


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 12, 2021)

I have very hard water and no soap scum problems at all, which I attribute to using a chelator (eta: and I use a low superfat of 2-3%).  When it comes to keeping DOS at bay, I feel a bit less in control. I’ve had minor cases of DOS that I could link back to using cheap grocery store olive oil or a soap touching silver. I’ve also had two cases of extensive DOS development in soap despite the addition of ROE and a chelator. In both cases the soap was exposed to bright light for weeks or more. I am now fanatical about keeping my curing soap in the dark. I also started buying oils from the major suppliers that cater to soap makers and adjusted my recipes to reduce the risks of DOS.

As a group, soap makers with high volume sales probably buy most of their oils from major suppliers, which should reduce the risk of getting a bad batch of oil. I also see a fair number of ingredient lists that are high in CO and palm, which are not especially prone to developing DOS.  I also wonder if any of these soap makers are stashing soap away for a year or more .


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 12, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I have very hard water and no soap scum problems at all, which I attribute to using a chelator.  When it comes to keeping DOS at bay, I feel a bit less in control. I’ve had minor cases of DOS that I could link back to using cheap grocery store olive oil or a soap touching silver. I’ve also had two cases of extensive DOS development in soap despite the addition of ROE and a chelator. In both cases the soap was exposed to bright light for weeks or more. I am now fanatical about keeping my curing soap in the dark. I also started buying oils from the major suppliers that cater to soap makers and adjusted my recipes to reduce the risks of DOS.
> 
> As a group, soap makers with high volume sales probably buy most of their oils from major suppliers, which should reduce the risk of getting a bad batch of oil. I also see a fair number of ingredient lists that are high in CO and palm, which are not especially prone to developing DOS.  I also wonder if any of these soap makers are stashing soap away for a year or more .


Yes... a lot to take consider on the pros & cons.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 12, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I've never added chelators or ROE to my soap.  I am tempted to add ROE but have not found any reason to do so thus far.
> I do sell, and have regular customers now, plus I use all the soap myself and some of it is over a year old and seem to have no problem with DOS.  I have had three batches go dossy in my three years of soaping and they seemed to go dossy early in their lives, rather than later. To this day I don't know why it has happened because they haven't been treated any differently to my other soaps.


You've got a great recipe' nothing like return customers to prove it.


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## Professor Bernardo (Oct 13, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> @Peachy Clean Soap -- I use ROE, rosemary oleoresin extract, as my antioxidant.
> 
> @SoapLover1 -- My personal opinion is exactly same as yours, but our opinion is only that -- opinion.
> 
> ...



A link to Marie Gale's page for :  Ingredient Declarations for Soap (US Only)

An excerpt from that page link above:


> *Soap: What Laws & Regs Apply?*
> The first thing to determine for the soap is whether it is a cosmetic or not. Soap is a cosmetic by default because it is applied to the human body to improve appearance or cleanse. However, the Food Drug and Cosmetic Act definition of a cosmetic exempts soap. Confusing? A bit.
> 
> Luckily, the FDA regulations clarify when a soap is exempt. To be exempt, it must:
> ...


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## Celestial1124 (Oct 13, 2021)

I'm still fairly new to soapmaking (and am pretty picky about weird sounding chemicals in my products) but after a few batches of my own soap, as well as using other locally handcrafted soap, the soap buildup on wash cloths especially, is enough to make me search out a chelator to use in my next batch, or a soap maker that uses one. Our water is hard enough that the soap is just hard to get out (even with tweaking my laundry habits to help) and also builds up quickly on the shower floor. No issues when I go back to the kirks I used before soap making (so drying though!).


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## SoapDaddy70 (Oct 13, 2021)

I didn't use any chelators for the first 40 batches of soap I made. I went on vacation down to the Outer Banks and brought a bunch of soap for everyone to use. To my horror, most if not all of the soap behaved so differently in this beach house then it did in my Long Island shower. It was gooey and gross after it sat in the sink and/or shower. If I ever plan on selling my soap I would be doing a disservice to future customers if I did not account for different water situations throughout the country. I use .5% Food Grade Sodium Gluconate and .5% Food Grade Tetrasodium EDTA in my last few batches. I do understand the issue with throwing such "chemically" sounding ingredients on your label but if I bought soap and it turned to a gooey mess I would be pretty upset that the soapmaker was not knowledgeable enough to account for all different types of water situations.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 13, 2021)

Celestial1124 said:


> picky about weird sounding chemicals in my products


You can replace some of your lye water with *lemon juice* as a source of chelator. Doesn't sound like a weird chemical IMHO.

ETA: some math is needed, though. And don't panic when the lemon juice turns bright orange-red after adding the NaOH, it'll turn pale again during saponification.


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## Orebma (Oct 13, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> You can replace some of your lye water with *lemon juice* as a source of chelator. Doesn't sound like a weird chemical IMHO.
> 
> ETA: some math is needed, though. And don't panic when the lemon juice turns bright orange-red after adding the NaOH, it'll turn pale again during saponification.


Oooh that is great news. I zested a couple of kilos of lemons and couldn't think what to do with the fruit so froze some of the juice I squeezed. Handy!


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 13, 2021)

Celestial1124 said:


> I'm still fairly new to soapmaking (and am pretty picky about weird sounding chemicals in my products) but after a few batches of my own soap, as well as using other locally handcrafted soap, the soap buildup on wash cloths especially, is enough to make me search out a chelator to use in my next batch, or a soap maker that uses one. Our water is hard enough that the soap is just hard to get out (even with tweaking my laundry habits to help) and also builds up quickly on the shower floor. No issues when I go back to the kirks I used before soap making (so drying though!).


But have you considered reducing your superfat to reduce build-up?


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## Cat&Oak (Oct 13, 2021)

Okay you guys have me convinced. Just ordered some sodium citrate. Thanks to this great community I learn something new every day.


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## earlene (Oct 14, 2021)

I beg to differ that chelators are rarely used by soapmakers who are not members of this forum.  (Or maybe I am misreading some of the posts in this thread.)  And that the general public has no clue about chelators.  That is to suggest that the general public are poorly uneducated or clueless people.  There are plenty of people in the general population aware of chelators and how they are used in everyday life.  You may not think you know them, but some of you are & were among them even before joining this Forum.  If the information is new to you, good.  But it wasn't new to all of us.

Chelators have been used by the soapmaking industry for a long time and in fact, several contain chelators.  Dial contains Citric Acid.  Ivory contains EDTA.  Dove contains EDTA.  Safeguard contains EDTA.  Lava contains tetrasodium etidronate. Kirkland soap contains tetrasodium etidronate.  The list goes on.

The use of ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) or other antioxidants in combination with (or without) various chelators to preserve oils/prevent rancidity and reduce soap scum has been going on for a very long time.  Not only have they been used a long time in soap, but also in food products.

Sure some folks believe these ingredients are unsafe, and don't want them, and that's fine.  They don't have to if that is their choice.

But they are used based on scientific findings of how they work.  And I for one, hate soap scum build-up in my sinks, bathtubs, showers and water pipes.  I can easily tell the difference when I use soap that do not contain them by the very visible soap scum that shows up immediately in use.  And that build-up is visible when pulling hair out of a drain, too.  Just total yucky stuff.  Sorry, that may be too graphic, but it really is ugly what builds up inside the drainage pipes underneath sinks, so I prefer soap with additives to prevent/delay that build-up.


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## LynetteO (Oct 14, 2021)

Cat&Oak said:


> Okay you guys have me convinced. Just ordered some sodium citrate. Thanks to this great community I learn something new every day.


You won’t be disappointed. I just tried my 1st test sliver of 1st loaf with sodium Citrate added &  I could tell/see the difference in bubbles!


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## Cat&Oak (Oct 14, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> You won’t be disappointed. I just tried my 1st test sliver of 1st loaf with sodium Citrate added &  I could tell/see the difference in bubbles!


Ooooo I'm excited! Getting ready to do my winter line so I will keep you posted


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 14, 2021)

Professor Bernardo said:


> A link to Marie Gale's page for :  Ingredient Declarations for Soap (US Only)
> 
> An excerpt from that page link above:


Thx for you link


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 14, 2021)

earlene said:


> I beg to differ that chelators are rarely used by soapmakers who are not members of this forum.  (Or maybe I am misreading some of the posts in this thread.)  And that the general public has no clue about chelators.  That is to suggest that the general public are poorly uneducated or clueless people.  There are plenty of people in the general population aware of chelators and how they are used in everyday life.  You may not think you know them, but some of you are & were among them even before joining this Forum.  If the information is new to you, good.  But it wasn't new to all of us.
> 
> Chelators have been used by the soapmaking industry for a long time and in fact, several contain chelators.  Dial contains Citric Acid.  Ivory contains EDTA.  Dove contains EDTA.  Safeguard contains EDTA.  Lava contains tetrasodium etidronate. Kirkland soap contains tetrasodium etidronate.  The list goes on.
> 
> ...


You didn't miss read my opening thought & post, Found it interesting 4 different soapers did not have them listed in their ingredients.  Now who knows if they don't use them or don't list them?.  Interesting to say the least which brought up some great content here on the subject.  
Thx for your input as-well, Very informative.


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## SideDoorSoaps (Oct 14, 2021)

I was using citric acid in my soaps for chelating properties and then learned from a potential customer that some citric acid is made from corn and that they were allergic to corn :O I've looked at lots of other local soapmakers and I have not noticed any of them using any kind of chelator or antioxidant in their ingredients. Maybe they aren't listing them. Idk...  In the last 12 years that we've been soaping, only a handful of batches have DOS and most recently just about all the soap I made with hemp oil DOS'd. I have one bar from the first CP batch in our bathroom and it definitely has DOS but it doesn't smell. Just very orange. I have buckets of soap scraps/ends from all the batches of soap I've made (and it's extensive) that I rummage through every few months to check out. My youngest son also likes to carve the soap up to occupy himself when I'm soaping.

I definitely loved the difference of the sudsing and less soap scum in the shower. We recently installed a water softener system and there hasn't been any soap scum with the non-citric acid soaps. I still use citric acid in my shave soap because the lather is just awesome. The aloe I was using in some batches also has citric acid and sodium gluctonate in it.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 15, 2021)

SideDoorSoaps said:


> I was using citric acid in my soaps for chelating properties and then learned from a potential customer that some citric acid is made from corn and that they were allergic to corn :O I've looked at lots of other local soapmakers and I have not noticed any of them using any kind of chelator or antioxidant in their ingredients. Maybe they aren't listing them. Idk...  In the last 12 years that we've been soaping, only a handful of batches have DOS and most recently just about all the soap I made with hemp oil DOS'd. I have one bar from the first CP batch in our bathroom and it definitely has DOS but it doesn't smell. Just very orange. I have buckets of soap scraps/ends from all the batches of soap I've made (and it's extensive) that I rummage through every few months to check out. My youngest son also likes to carve the soap up to occupy himself when I'm soaping.
> 
> I definitely loved the difference of the sudsing and less soap scum in the shower. We recently installed a water softener system and there hasn't been any soap scum with the non-citric acid soaps. I still use citric acid in my shave soap because the lather is just awesome. The aloe I was using in some batches also has citric acid and sodium gluctonate in it.


Thats interesting the hemp oil soaps had more DOS.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 15, 2021)

SideDoorSoaps said:


> I was using citric acid in my soaps for chelating properties and then learned from a potential customer that some citric acid is made from corn and that they were allergic to corn :O


According to the definitive source, Wikipedia, a mold (Aspergillus niger) transforms corn sugars to calcium citrate, which is then converted to citric acid using sulfuric acid.  Corn plants and molds are not creating the elemental carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that are the components of a citric acid molecule. By extension, I think it’s like saying they wouldn’t be able to eat meat from an animal that was fed corn, or breathe air near a corn field.


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## bookworm (Oct 15, 2021)

i have been observing all the contributions with lots of interest. Clearly need to start researching this.
When I moved many years ago to Australia, I was surprised that most of my new friends used liquid soap and not bars. They cited the reason as bar soap causing soap scum and a pain to clean glass shower doors. I read then, that commercial soaps contain talc which resulted in the scum.

But after experiencing soap scum with some of my own bars, I began to wonder. I’m so glad to read up on your experiences and will look into this.

The surprising thing was the dismissive manner of my soaping class instructor, who did not acknowledge the existence of soap scum and that it was caused by soap. She said that the streaks on the shower doors was most likely caused by body oils.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 15, 2021)

bookworm said:


> i have been observing all the contributions with lots of interest. Clearly need to start researching this.
> When I moved many years ago to Australia, I was surprised that most of my new friends used liquid soap and not bars. They cited the reason as bar soap causing soap scum and a pain to clean glass shower doors. I read then, that commercial soaps contain talc which resulted in the scum.
> 
> But after experiencing soap scum with some of my own bars, I began to wonder. I’m so glad to read up on your experiences and will look into this.
> ...


Oh goodness.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 15, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> According to the definitive source, Wikipedia, a mold (Aspergillus niger) transforms corn sugars to calcium citrate, which is then converted to citric acid using sulfuric acid.  Corn plants and molds are not creating the elemental carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that are the components of a citric acid molecule. By extension, I think it’s like saying they wouldn’t be able to eat meat from an animal that was fed corn, or breathe air near a corn field.


Good point's & informative.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 15, 2021)

bookworm said:


> ....most of my new friends used liquid soap and not bars. They cited the reason as bar soap causing soap scum and a pain to clean glass shower doors. I read then, that commercial soaps contain talc which resulted in the scum....



Commercial body washes are blends of synthetic detergents (syndets), not a true lye-based soap. Syndets don't form soap scum when mixed with hard water minerals. That's why the shower door stays cleaner.

If there is talc or other powders in a lye-based soap, the powder can stick to the soap scum and build up, which would make the soap scum deposits more obvious. But it's not the talc that creates the scum in the first place -- it's the soap that does that.



bookworm said:


> ...The surprising thing was the dismissive manner of my soaping class instructor, who did not acknowledge the existence of soap scum and that it was caused by soap. She said that the streaks on the shower doors was most likely caused by body oils.



That's unfortunate. The production of soap scum is just normal chemical behavior of soap. I'd think a good instructor would want to educate their students about this fact, not sweep something that's common knowledge under the rug.


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## SideDoorSoaps (Oct 15, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> According to the definitive source, Wikipedia, a mold (Aspergillus niger) transforms corn sugars to calcium citrate, which is then converted to citric acid using sulfuric acid.  Corn plants and molds are not creating the elemental carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that are the components of a citric acid molecule. By extension, I think it’s like saying they wouldn’t be able to eat meat from an animal that was fed corn, or breathe air near a corn field.



I'm not sure it's as sensitive as that however i did come across this article a couple years ago about corn allergies. It was very interesting and I like how it references soap making


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## paradisi (Oct 15, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> According to the definitive source, Wikipedia, a mold (Aspergillus niger) transforms corn sugars to calcium citrate, which is then converted to citric acid using sulfuric acid.  Corn plants and molds are not creating the elemental carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that are the components of a citric acid molecule. By extension, I think it’s like saying they wouldn’t be able to eat meat from an animal that was fed corn, or breathe air near a corn field.


I don't know about allergenic effects, but when I first ate feedlot beef (corn fed) after being raised on wild game and our own grass fed beef, it tasted sweet and corn-bready. So some aspect does make it through.  (Think about the lengths gourmets go to, feeding animals stuff like juniper berries...).

As to citric acid being affected, it too has different odors depending on source. Does that mean it's enough to trigger allergies?  I have no idea.


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## Bubble Agent (Oct 15, 2021)

bookworm said:


> ...my soaping class instructor, who did not acknowledge the existence of soap scum and that it was caused by soap. She said that the streaks on the shower doors was most likely caused by body oils.



Well, there are those who still believe _"the earth is flat", _so I am starting to get to a point of not getting terribly surprized when someone can still be so adamant about denying certain things. Even though science itself have gone above and beyond documenting a cause-and-effect relationship between events or variables, wether is it a chelator or whatever the topic is.

(When a soap _with _a chelator leaves way less (if any, depending of hard/soft water) soap scum - does that mean that the body oils suddenly cease to exist when a human uses the soap?
Like the body says; _uh-oh, I smell sum chelator here, I`ll better not leave soap scum or someone may know I am here..._ )


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## ghoshsmita (Oct 15, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> I didn't use any chelators for the first 40 batches of soap I made. I went on vacation down to the Outer Banks and brought a bunch of soap for everyone to use. To my horror, most if not all of the soap behaved so differently in this beach house then it did in my Long Island shower. It was gooey and gross after it sat in the sink and/or shower. If I ever plan on selling my soap I would be doing a disservice to future customers if I did not account for different water situations throughout the country. I use .5% Food Grade Sodium Gluconate and .5% Food Grade Tetrasodium EDTA in my last few batches. I do understand the issue with throwing such "chemically" sounding ingredients on your label but if I bought soap and it turned to a gooey mess I would be pretty upset that the soapmaker was not knowledgeable enough to account for all different types of water situations.


I use Sodium Glauconate too & it really has made a difference.  Sodium Glauconate is natural too so I don't stress over additives.  My bathtub is waaay cleaner since I started using it. Some how the soap also leaves the skin softer and silkier after I started using it.


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## SideDoorSoaps (Oct 16, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Thats interesting the hemp oil soaps had more DOS.


It is very interesting. I’m not sure why other than the local source that produces it may have unknown contaminants or not as long shelf life - it was witching a few months of purchase that I used it. And it was not cheap!


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 16, 2021)

SideDoorSoaps said:


> It is very interesting. I’m not sure why other than the local source that produces it may have unknown contaminants or not as long shelf life - it was witching a few months of purchase that I used it. And it was not cheap!


I'd venture to guess it has a short shelf life, yes its costly.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 16, 2021)

Hemp, grapeseed, corn, conventional soybean, conventional safflower, and other fats high in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) will oxidize and go rancid more quickly than fats lower in these fatty acids.

The same is also true for soap made with a high percentage of these polyunsaturated fats. Soap made with mostly monounsaturated and saturated fatty acids typically has a longer shelf life, all other things being equal.  If you want to use a high percentage of polyunsaturated fats in your soap, it might be wise to also use a chelator and antioxidant. You might also consider storing this type of soap in the refrigerator.

There are several single oil soap trials on the internet that are worth checking out. Alchemy and Ashes, The Curious Soapmaker, and Zen Soaps are three I know of.

Many people (including me) use a rule of thumb to keep the combined linoleic acid and linolenic acid content below about 15% in our soap as a way to minimize how easily the soap goes rancid. I don't know of any research that supports this 15% rule of thumb, but it seems to be effective.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 16, 2021)

cmzaha said:


> I never had a person question the additives and not buy a bar of soap because of my additives in all my years of selling. Maybe I was just lucky.


Thats valuable info. cause many may not add all ingredients do to fear of the soap looking not "All Natural" another rabbit-hole


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 16, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> Hemp, grapeseed, corn, conventional soybean, conventional safflower, and other fats high in polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) will oxidize and go rancid more quickly than fats lower in these fatty acids.
> 
> The same is also true for soap made with a high percentage of these polyunsaturated fats. Soap made with mostly monounsaturated and saturated fatty acids typically has a longer shelf life, all other things being equal.  If you want to use a high percentage of polyunsaturated fats in your soap, it might be wise to also use a chelator and antioxidant. You might also consider storing this type of soap in the refrigerator.
> 
> ...


"This Is Great Info" gonna SS & print so I'll have it.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 16, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Thank you.  Winning over my husband was tough...lifetime Dial user...but now he is one of my testers and gives me really good feedback.  And I should perhaps mention, only because I was thinking about it while I was just in the shower, that I have a metal shower caddy.  It's chrome I think, bought it quite a few years ago and I haven't had any issues with my soap and there are at least three bars on it.
> 
> Exactly.  One of the questions I always get it is "What is Sodium Lactate?  I thought your soap was homemade."  I then explain that it is a liquid salt that helps to harden the soap to make it easier to unmold.
> 
> ...


I like your label' its shortened but precise.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 16, 2021)

I'm gonna add this new found soap info here' kinda apply's to our topic:
Rancid Lard Accelerates Soap Batter:
I joined our forum October soap challenge' & my soap would accelerate right after adding the lye to fats & oils & quite fast' I thought my saturated & unsaturated fats were off so I readjusted my soap formula adding more unsaturated fats, this didnt help, I thought must be the water I readjusted water ratio from 37% to 34% then again to 33%, this didn't help, I thought must be the castor oil reduced that from 5.50% to 1%, yet again didn't help! ok by this time I'm getting really frustrated then I thought maybe it's the sodium lactate so didn't add that & still didn't help. after 4 batches of soap I couldn't think of what else to do.  I suddenly had a light bulb moment! breakthrough if you will!!! of what could be causing soap to accelerate.  I had just put remaining Lard into a smaller container saving space & jotted down the expiration date on the new lard container so i'd know when its out of code' I remember thinking oh the expiration is up next month on the 20th I better use it up!!.  Well the lard was already rancid though it looked perfect the scent was off in that it had a "slight chemical smell" not bad but I could detect it,  so putting two & two together I realized the " lard must be rancid" & this is causing my soap batter to accelerate. the soap batter had a gel like gladness in texture & soap color changed from the off whiteish to a yellow golden color, it also morphed the micas colors for instance the black mica turned green grayish, also the scent was off it changed the EO/ FO which was detected when I cut the soap.  So The Just Of My Experience Is' ( Rancid Lard ) will accelerate your soap.

Ive tossed out 3 batches' the 4th will be thrown out today' Its so pretty I wanted to keep it just a extra day, though their's no DOS on soap' it's coming cause rancid lard makes rancid soap & thats  just nasty contaminated germ fest that will spread to your other soap's like cancer. 

Final Thought ( Rancid Lard Will Accelerate Your Soap Batter)


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 16, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Ive tossed out 3 batches' the 4th will be thrown out today'


Zany's faint.gif moment 

But what else to do? Rancid oils make rancid soap.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 16, 2021)

paradisi said:


> I don't know about allergenic effects, but when I first ate feedlot beef (corn fed) after being raised on wild game and our own grass fed beef, it tasted sweet and corn-bready. So some aspect does make it through.  (Think about the lengths gourmets go to, feeding animals stuff like juniper berries...).
> 
> As to citric acid being affected, it too has different odors depending on source. Does that mean it's enough to trigger allergies?  I have no idea.


I have to admit to not being an A student in cell physiology and biochemistry, so I went a bit down the rabbit hole and learned that processing practices, in particular, add a high level of uncertainty when it comes to avoiding corn proteins. According to this *source*, corn allergies are rare, but I also learned that corn-derived proteins may be found in caramel, malt, sorbitol, xanthan gum, other foods and personal care products, like shampoo and toothpaste. I’m glad I don’t have a corn allergy.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 16, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Zany's faint.gif moment
> 
> But what else to do? Rancid oils make rancid soap.


Yes... Oh my goodness.  I searched everywhere if Rancid Lard could accelerate soap recipe? couldn't find any information confirming my speculation. 
After I purchased new lard & made a new batch of soap w/ last recipe,  I confirmed my speculation, sadly it was a costly lesson I wont soon forget.  But the soap recipe was fluid ' almost to much' w/ ample time to swirl tell my heart was content. . I hope I can see a Butterfly in the swirl.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 16, 2021)

Clever girl  … challenge voters can't smell the rancidity, and you can ditch it just after you've made the photos.

Annoying that it cost you four batches of soap, otherwise great without doubt, just to find that out.


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## TheGecko (Oct 16, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> I like your label' its shortened but precise.



Thank you.  It conforms with all labeling standards...from descending order of predominance, to font type and size AND it fits on an address label.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 17, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> ...[can] Rancid Lard could accelerate soap recipe?...



It's less about rancidity and more about the amount of free fatty acids (FFAs) in the fat.

A triglyceride fat molecule is made from 4 building blocks -- 3 fatty acid "legs" attached to 1 glycerin "backbone". When a fat molecule reacts with oxygen -- in other words, when the fat oxidizes -- one or more of the fatty acids breaks away from the glycerin. 

These "loose" fatty acids (aka "free fatty acids" or FFAs) will react almost instantly with lye solution to form soap, because the hardest step of breaking the fatty acids off the glycerin is already done by oxidation. The lye only has the easy job of bonding with the FFAs to form soap molecules.

Oxidized fat is not rancid, but it will have an increasingly higher FFA content than non-oxidized fat. The more FFAs in your fat, the faster the batter will reach trace, all other things being equal. You cannot smell or see when the FFA content is high -- a fat with high FFAs will appear the same as a fat with low FFAs to the everyday observer.

When these free fatty acids break down further into smelly ketones and aldehydes, that's when the fat becomes rancid. It's the smell of these chemicals that defines when the fat is rancid. 

Believe it or not, rancid fat does not always have a high FFA content. It's entirely possible that one rancid fat will not accelerate trace, but a second rancid fat will. In other words, the smell of rancidity is not surefire proof that the FFA content is high.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 17, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> Oxidized fat is not rancid, but it will have an increasingly higher FFA content than non-oxidized fat.


_*Hydrolysed_ fat (hydrolytic rancidity).

Oxygen attacks FA _chains_ next to C=C double bonds (_oxidative_ rancidity: production of hydroperoxides and cross-linking molecules in a complicated chain reaction; subsequent reactions can generate hydroxy-, keto and aldehyde groups; some of the resultant compounds are smelly).
FFAs are the result of _water_ cleaving ester bonds (hydrolytic rancidity). Action of oxygen does eventually liberate acids too, but these aren't free _fatty_ acids, but fragments of the original FA chains.

In practice, one wants to avoid both hydrolytic rancidity (keep oils dry, don't use frying oils, etc.; limited shelf life of dairy butter), and oxidative rancidity (avoid air contact, add antioxidants to interrupt the peroxide chain reaction).


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 17, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> It's less about rancidity and more about the amount of free fatty acids (FFAs) in the fat.
> 
> A triglyceride fat molecule is made from 4 building blocks -- 3 fatty acid "legs" attached to 1 glycerin "backbone". When a fat molecule reacts with oxygen -- in other words, when the fat oxidizes -- one or more of the fatty acids breaks away from the glycerin.
> 
> ...


Wow thats so interesting & informative, so appreciate it.   This would explain why it reached trace so darn fast regardless all I knew to do. Now im thinking if I would of decreased the lard% I probably could of fixed the situation? at least the fast trace' not the rancidity? Now Another thought cause we have Hot Summers & my lard wasn't refrigerated that could of caused the lard to go rancid?.  
This soaping is so scientific' Much Thx


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 17, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> _*Hydrolysed_ fat (hydrolytic rancidity).
> 
> Oxygen attacks FA _chains_ next to C=C double bonds (_oxidative_ rancidity: production of hydroperoxides and cross-linking molecules in a complicated chain reaction; subsequent reactions can generate hydroxy-, keto and aldehyde groups; some of the resultant compounds are smelly).
> FFAs are the result of _water_ cleaving ester bonds (hydrolytic rancidity). Action of oxygen does eventually liberate acids too, but these aren't free _fatty_ acids, but fragments of the original FA chains.
> ...


You're scientific information given freely is so appreciated.   Thank you


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 19, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> You're scientific information given freely is so appreciated.   Thank you


Oh - I thought it was a foreign language


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 19, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Oh - I thought it was a foreign language


Chuffed? Faffing around? Darn tootin' foreign languages!


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## Cheeky Goat (Oct 19, 2021)

This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point. 

For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or? 

Do you do extra math to check the end result and not end up with too high of a SF, and that’s why you reduce down to a 2-3%? 

My base level is at 5% SF, and I don’t experience issues with DOS asides when I do something I *know* will cause it (ie Soap dough embeds contacting non stainless metals) but the hard water situation is no joke. 

While do I sell out, I have always diligently kept slices and samples from each batch over the years to check quality and for my own knowledge, esp when I make adjustments to recipes… and because I just really like certain bars and I (literally) keep them on a shelf. 

But our upstairs shower is a glass box, and I’m frustrated with soap scum.


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## Megan (Oct 19, 2021)

Cheeky Goat said:


> This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.
> 
> For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?
> 
> ...



I use SG. The most important thing to remember is to dissolve the SG in water BEFORE adding the lye because it will not go into solution after. 
SG does not affect super fat so no need to worry there. 

It's been so long since I used citric, I can't remember off the top of my head on that one but I think I did that first as well. DeAnna's classic bells website has a great page on CA and the calculations you need to figure out extra lye needed if you decide to go that route.  Citric acid, Citrus juice | Soapy Stuff


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## ScentimentallyYours (Oct 19, 2021)

Thank you @DeeAnna and @ResolvableOwl for the information on FFAs accelerating saponification.   I had read about oil quality & FFAs causing “instant” saponification recently, but couldn’t recall where. I am bookmarking your posts!


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## mcdougal7 (Oct 19, 2021)

Cheeky Goat said:


> This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.
> 
> For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?
> 
> ...





Cheeky Goat said:


> This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.
> 
> For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?
> 
> ...


I make my soap with a full water replacement of vinegar.  White distilled vinegar is what I usually use so as not to affect the colors, but ACV can be used if color isn't a concern.  For me it works quite well for reducing soap scum, and seems to make a harder bar.  I do adjust the amount of lye by multiplying the total grams of vinegar by .0357 (actually I use .0333 for a little leeway), which is just a few grams of lye.  It comes to approximately 1 gram of lye for every 28 grams of vinegar.  Vinegar does have a hotter reaction with lye, so it should be added slowly and carefully.


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## mcdougal7 (Oct 19, 2021)

Cheeky Goat said:


> This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.
> 
> For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?
> 
> ...


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## linne1gi (Oct 19, 2021)

Cheeky Goat said:


> This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.
> 
> For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?
> 
> ...


I'm impressed by the "upstairs shower", since I know you live in Florida and there are so few houses with an "upstairs"!  I use citric acid (been doing this about 5 years) to every soap I make along with EDTA.  I am almost finished with the EDTA and then I will go to Sodium Gluconate which I understand is better for the environment.  There is a huge difference when using both citric acid and EDTA.


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## dibbles (Oct 19, 2021)

@Cheeky Goat I use sodium citrate - no need to adjust the lye. I use it at 1.5% of oil weight. I warm some of the batch water - in your case probably goat milk - about twice the weight of the sodium citrate and stick blend it into my oils before adding the lye. Here is a link to DeeAnna's article Citrate | Soapy Stuff


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 19, 2021)

Sodium gluconate, trisodium citrate, tetrasodium EDTA don't need to be compensated wrt lye. Easiest to use for the math shy.

In case of free citric acid: Each %TOW increases superfat by VERY ROUGHLY 4% of oils. Say, you're aiming at 6% SF and 1%TOW CA, tell the soap calculator to use 2% superfat.
(The 4% guesstimate depends on the used oils)


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## linne1gi (Oct 19, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Sodium gluconate, trisodium citrate, tetrasodium EDTA don't need to be compensated wrt lye. Easiest to use for the math shy.
> 
> In case of free citric acid: Each %TOW increases superfat by VERY ROUGHLY 4% of oils. Say, you're aiming at 6% SF and 1%TOW CA, tell the soap calculator to use 2% superfat.
> (The 4% guesstimate depends on the used oils)


The math is actually pretty easy for citric acid. I use 2%.  That’s of the oils, which I measure in grams.  So for 1000 grams of oils times 2% = 20 grams, then just multiply by 0.624 to get the amount of NaOH - 1000X.02=20X.624=12.48. So 20 grams of citric and 12 grams of NaOH.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 19, 2021)

I switched to sodium citrate because I was getting crystals on the top of my soap when I was using citric acid at as low as 1% of total oil weight.  i have no issues with crystals now, using sodium citrate at 1.5% of total oil weight.  At that percentage, it’s less than I could use for curtailing soap scum, but it working fine, even with my hard water.


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## linne1gi (Oct 19, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I switched to sodium citrate because I was getting crystals on the top of my soap when I was using citric acid at as low as 1% of total oil weight.  i have no issues with crystals now, using sodium citrate at 1.5% of total oil weight.  At that percentage, it’s less than I could use for curtailing soap scum, but it working fine, even with my hard water.


Hm, I wonder why you got crystals?  I have never seen a crystal (on top of my soap) and I use a much higher percentage. Always 2% and sometimes up to 2.5%.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 19, 2021)

Cheeky Goat said:


> This is such a great thread. I’ve been wanting to try chelators in my soap for hard water reasons, but have hesitated as it’s a change to my process, which is pretty set at this point.
> 
> For those who add sodium gluconate and citric acid, do you add it to the lye solution ? Or?
> 
> ...


I use sodium gluconate 5% of total batch weight. I dissolve SG in a little distilled water then add it to my oils right before my lye is added.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 19, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Clever girl  … challenge voters can't smell the rancidity, and you can ditch it just after you've made the photos.
> 
> Annoying that it cost you four batches of soap, otherwise great without doubt, just to find that out.


Good suggestion unfortunately the #4 batches of rancid lard soap was so thick & gelatinous it wouldn't even swirl, though I tried.
Remember I posted hubbys point of view on 1st soap he said "it looks like a butterfly on his windshield" lol.  On the next batch #2 I asked him again if he could see a butterfly he said "butterfly in a hurricane"  needless to say' I no longer needed his opinion moving forward on the last two batches which had no improvement, bahaha .   All four batches went in the trash.
Update: I finally succeeded & did a "Glamor Shoot   picture is all ready to post.


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## CatahoulaBubble (Oct 20, 2021)

I've never used chelators in my soap and I have a box of bars that is over 15 years old that has never developed DOS.


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## impish (Oct 20, 2021)

Yesterday I made my first batch of soap with citric acid. DOS has never been a problem, but soap scum in the tub and probably in the pipes of my home and the homes of my recipients is certainly a concern. I chose citric acid because it was readily available, on the shelf at my local hardware store. In addition, the wonderful SoapmakingFriend recipe calculator did the math regarding additional lye. All I need now is to wait 6 weeks, so hard...


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 20, 2021)

impish said:


> In addition, the wonderful SoapmakingFriend recipe calculator did the math regarding additional lye.


Yes – with a caveat: it does the math wrong, or at least in a misleading/not well explained way.




__





						Citirc acid calculator
					

Hello, I was using soapmakingfriend lye/soap calc to calculate the total amount of NaOH when including citric acid, but when I compared it to soapcalc + calculating the added amount of NaOH manually, i get different numbers. The batch is 250 grams of oils and the amount of CA is 1.5 %, SF is at...




					www.soapmakingforum.com


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 20, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> Hm, I wonder why you got crystals?  I have never seen a crystal (on top of my soap) and I use a much higher percentage. Always 2% and sometimes up to 2.5%.



I have no idea why it was happening, especially since I was masterbatching the CA. I was getting a very thin, fine layer on some, but not all batches. I rarely get ash, so it was easy for me to see, but I doubt my users noticed It at all. I haven’t had any problems since I switched to sodium citrate earlier this year.

DeeAnna mentions the issue of citric acid crystal formation on her website, *here**, *but it’s usually associated with using higher amounts.  I use higher than average lye concentrations (mostly in the range of 35-37%, and up to 40%) so maybe that was a contributing factor.

@CatahoulaBubble Do you think your recipe helps with that excellent performance of your soap?


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## impish (Oct 20, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Yes – with a caveat: it does the math wrong, or at least in a misleading/not well explained way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for pointing this out and including the thread. I'll give it a close reading AND do the math. Also, a big "thank you" to the scientific folks generously sharing knowledge on this forum, I learn so much from you. The science I do with preschoolers is fun, but rarely so technical.


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## linne1gi (Oct 20, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I have no idea why it was happening, especially since I was masterbatching the CA. I was getting a very thin, fine layer on some, but not all batches. I rarely get ash, so it was easy for me to see, but I doubt my users noticed It at all. I haven’t had any problems since I switched to sodium citrate earlier this year.
> 
> DeeAnna mentions the issue of citric acid crystal formation on her website, *here**, *but it’s usually associated with using higher amounts.  I use higher than average lye concentrations (mostly in the range of 35-37%, and up to 40%) so maybe that was a contributing factor.
> 
> @CatahoulaBubble Do you think your recipe helps with that excellent performance of your soap?


I generally use between 35-40% and have never seen crystals. And fortunately with my stronger lye concentration, I never get ash.  You were making a citric acid solution?  I use it dry.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 20, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I was masterbatching the CA


Did you add the citrate to the lye masterbatch, or did you have a separate concentrated citric acid solution to add to the watery part of the batch at soapmaking time?


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 20, 2021)

I almost always use the split method.  MB lye is added after I stickblend the other liquids into the oils.  CA MB would have been part of the other liquids and at high LC it would have amounted to a good portion of the other liquid.  I believe my CA MB was 50%, but I would need to check notes to be sure.  The CA MB was 33% CA.


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