# Home rendered tallow/lard?



## joatman66 (Sep 14, 2014)

A friend gave me a bunch of fat trimmed from briskets (possibly some pork mixed in).

I rendered it down, but it has a slight aroma.  

I'm new to making soap, so I'm hoping a seasoned veteran can help me out.

Will the smell go away when used in soap?

I know the bulk of the trimmings were beef, but I'm not sure if there was any pork fat mixed in.  

Should I be concerned with different sopanification values for tallow vs. lard?  

Or, should I pitch it?

Thanks!
Aaron


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## lsg (Sep 14, 2014)

Tallow and lard may have a slight odor, especially if rendered on high heat.  The old timers used to cut up a peeled potato and heat it with the tallow or lard.  They claimed this helped with the odor.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/country-homemaking/soapmaking/324063-lard-question.html


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## Obsidian (Sep 14, 2014)

Tallow and lard has a similar SAP so I'd just use the beef tallow on soapcalc. If you use 100% of the tallow for soap, it might have a slight meaty smell. I'd really suggest using scent just in case.


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## neeners (Sep 14, 2014)

I read if you add a bit of vinegar and baking soda to the fat when it's cold in the pot, it doesn't smell that bad.  I rendered lard today (for the first time), and I did just that.  didn't really smell except when the cracklings were cooking or I opened the lid.  smelled kinda like pork bone soup....


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## Booko (Sep 14, 2014)

While we're on the subject of meat fat and soapmaking, am I nuts to bother making soap from chicken fat?  I have a ton of it and I'd like to use it for something.  Even if it's only laundry soap.

I don't get much beef fat, and what I do get I tend to save for pie crusts.

I wish I could find pork fat, but my Latino neighbors turn it into Manteca, so unless I want paprika scented soap...uh...no.


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## neeners (Sep 14, 2014)

Booko said:


> While we're on the subject of meat fat and soapmaking, am I nuts to bother making soap from chicken fat? I have a ton of it and I'd like to use it for something. Even if it's only laundry soap.
> 
> I don't get much beef fat, and what I do get I tend to save for pie crusts.
> 
> I wish I could find pork fat, but my Latino neighbors turn it into Manteca, so unless I want paprika scented soap...uh...no.



doesn't hurt to try with chicken fat, esp if you can get it for free.  I know it's an oil on soapcalc, so someone's been soaping with it at some point.....  when you do soap with it, let us know how it works!

 as for paprika scented soap, the scent likely won't stick.  again, give it a try and see how it turns out!


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## Susie (Sep 14, 2014)

Soapcalc has an entry for chicken fat.  I don't see why you could not use it.


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## Booko (Sep 14, 2014)

neeners said:


> doesn't hurt to try with chicken fat, esp if you can get it for free.  I know it's an oil on soapcalc, so someone's been soaping with it at some point.....  when you do soap with it, let us know how it works!



Thanks!  I've seen it out on soapcalc and thought that might be my next experiment.  I mean...free?  What the heck.



> as for paprika scented soap, the scent likely won't stick.  again, give it a try and see how it turns out!



I'm still nervous about what else might be in that Manteca.  I have some pretty obscure allergies, as do friends of mine.  I'd be willing to buy just real lard if I could find it, but once anything is mixed in, eh, it's probably not worth the risk.

I'm not having problems with nightshades but my sister is, and anything I make I'd prefer to pass her a bar or two and know it's safe.


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## reinbeau (Sep 14, 2014)

Booko said:


> I'm still nervous about what else might be in that Manteca.  I have some pretty obscure allergies, as do friends of mine.  I'd be willing to buy just real lard if I could find it, but once anything is mixed in, eh, it's probably not worth the risk.
> 
> I'm not having problems with nightshades but my sister is, and anything I make I'd prefer to pass her a bar or two and know it's safe.


I'm puzzled.  What do you think is in the lard (which is real lard, by the way).  The partially hydrogenated stuff they sell in supermarkets is more likely to cause reactions than home rendered lard from real fat.  

As mentioned above, render on very low heat and you shouldn't have a scent.  I only render suet (tallow) and leaf lard (lard), I don't use the other fats - I think those are the fats that tend to get more 'fragrant'.


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## Booko (Sep 14, 2014)

reinbeau said:


> I'm puzzled.  What do you think is in the lard (which is real lard, by the way).  The partially hydrogenated stuff they sell in supermarkets is more likely to cause reactions than home rendered lard from real fat.



Do you mean the lard or the manteca?

The "lard" in stores, as you say, is not real lard, but trans fat.  That makes it not useful for me or my daughter.  

I'd be fine if I could find plain rendered lard, but I can't.  

Manteca can be flavored or unflavored, so I read on the Internets.  But all I've found is obviously flavored (paprika is typical, but it could be other things).  So I don't dare to use it.



> As mentioned above, render on very low heat and you shouldn't have a scent.  I only render suet (tallow) and leaf lard (lard), I don't use the other fats - I think those are the fats that tend to get more 'fragrant'.



It's not about the scent.  It's about being in contact with a substance that's a known allergen for me or those I'd be making the soap for.  Cross-contamination is a problem.  

If I don't know exactly what's in a soap, I don't use it, and yeah, that means there's one commercial soap I buy.  There are a few crafters I know here who know details of what's in their soap, down to whether the sodium lactate came from corn or beets, so I've bought from them when they had something very plain to offer, but that doesn't happen often.

If I could find the plain pork fat, I'd be happy to render it.  

Unfortunately the butchers near me are either Latino and sell flavored manteca, or they're halal or kosher, in which case lol yeah no pork fat there.  And grocers, well it's amazing they even know which cuts of meat are which anymore.

I may have to look out of town in a more rural area for a butcher.  I just hate to make the drive if I don't have to.


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## neeners (Sep 14, 2014)

have you ever asked to buy pork belly?  b/c the fat I got was from the belly.  made a really white lard.  I have no idea what Manteca is so I can't help you there.

 can you buy beef fat in your halal butcher? 

 and in supermarkets, there's shortening and there's lard.  I've had multiple people tell me shortening is lard as they don't get the difference.  I can buy lard in the supermarket, but there's additives in it, so I decided to make my own (and I can get the fat for cheap).


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## reinbeau (Sep 15, 2014)

I thought manteca was just Spanish for lard.  Lard is lard and yes, I agree, the stuff they sell in supermarkets is not truly lard (I think I said that).


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## Susie (Sep 15, 2014)

From:  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lard

lard noun
: a soft white substance that is made from the fat of pigs and used in cooking
Full Definition of LARD

:  a soft white solid or semisolid fat obtained by rendering fatty pork

Hydrogenation does not change whether it is rendered fat of pigs/pork.  It is simply adding hydrogen.  Which is present in every drop of water you drink.  You don't absorb trans fats from soap.


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## neeners (Sep 15, 2014)

reinbeau said:


> I agree, the stuff they sell in supermarkets is not truly lard (I think I said that).



I was trying to say that there's shortening (hydrogenated vegetable oils) and lard (rendered pig fat).  many people think they're the same thing as I've had had supermarket clerks point at shortening and tell me its lard, and friends ask me why they're different.  so, maybe go back to your supermarket, look for lard, and read the ingredients?  because the lard I found there listed lard as the ingredient (plus preservatives and additives).


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## Susie (Sep 15, 2014)

The Armour lard in my store is labelled Manteca.  It is what I use for every batch of bar soap.  It contains the following:  lard and hydrogenated lard, BHA, Propyl Gallate, and Citric Acid.

We are going to need a chemistry intervention here, so any of you science types can help?  Here is what I can find on the internet about BHA:

What are BHA and BHT?
Butylated hydroxyanisole (BHA) and the related compound butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT) are phenolic compounds that are often added to foods to preserve fats.

BHA Characteristics:

BHA is a mixture of the isomers 3-tert-butyl-4-hydroxyanisole and 2-tert-butyl-4-hydroxyanisole. Also known as BOA, tert-butyl-4-hydroxyanisole, (1,1-dimethylethyl)-4-methoxyphenol, tert-butyl-4-methoxyphenol, antioxyne B, and under various trade names
Molecular formula C11H16O2
White or yellowish waxy solid
Faint characteristic aromatic odor

I am having a hard time finding anything on the internet that is anything not obviously biased about propyl gallate.


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## Susie (Sep 15, 2014)

neeners said:


> I was trying to say that there's shortening (hydrogenated vegetable oils) and lard (rendered pig fat).  many people think they're the same thing as I've had had supermarket clerks point at shortening and tell me its lard, and friends ask me why they're different.  so, maybe go back to your supermarket, look for lard, and read the ingredients?  because the lard I found there listed lard as the ingredient (plus preservatives and additives).



Sorry about that.  I understand that people call shortening lard all the time.  In my grandmother's day, there was a major advertising push to substitute out shortening for lard in baking and cooking.  They said it was healthier.  We know better now.  But, I was sent to the grocery store many times for "lard" when she meant shortening.


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## reinbeau (Sep 15, 2014)

All of which is why I source my lard and render it myself.  I don't support industries I don't care for.


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## Dahila (Sep 15, 2014)

reinbeau said:


> All of which is why I source my lard and render it myself.  I don't support industries I don't care for.


If i lived in the country and had farm or bees I would not support the industry either.  But I am the poor soul who lives in city,  I buy beef fat at market and do it myself, as was said before it must be done slow and it takes long. 
First i ground it in the machine then render tallow.  It has a very light smell of animal fat.  Smells different than lard, both smell good.  I buy my lard in grocery store it is much cheaper and I get wonderful soap of that. 
My hubby render lard with all the goodies and he eats it with bread.  I do too.  Years ago a lot of people had it always in house, when there was shortage of butter.  Most east Europeans use it)


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## sassanellat (Sep 15, 2014)

Susie - proply galleate is a fat antioxidant, so it prevents the lard from going rancid. A 2009 study found that propyl gallate acts as an estrogen antagonist, meaning it interferes with estrogen function. The level is very low even when eaten, and probably has no effect at all in soap (it would be mostly absorbed by dead epithelials and eaten by natural skin microflora). I'm always concerned with BHA and BHT in my food (all three are there only to increase corporate profit and aren't healthy to consume), but again, I doubt you'd absorb a detectable (even at part per billion) amount from soap. 
Neeners - You can buy additive-free lard and tallow from places like SopaersChoice inexpensively and they have reasonable shipping (or, of course, render you own). I think you can order 7 pound and 50 pound pre-rendered, no-additive cubes for about a buck a pound in the larger size.


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## Susie (Sep 15, 2014)

Thank you!  I hate providing links to places that are obviously biased.  

I use the big box store bought stuff for soap.  It is cheaper than the plain Manteca I buy at the local Latino store(they increased the price) for cooking.
I don't really worry about the chemicals in the Armour stuff when using it for soap, but the Manteca from the Latino store just tastes much better in cooking.
I had to ask the Latino store for plain Manteca.  Seems they hide the good stuff.


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## sassanellat (Sep 15, 2014)

Susie - Until I read this thread, I didn't know that Manteca was slightly flavored, so that was interesting (I just thought that it was a different word for lard). If I find a Latin grocery in my travels, I'll have to ask, too. (Thanks!) My better half is a 'no additive' stickler for the business, so I'd never (be allowed to) use it for sale, but I'm probably going to use it in test batches. We've been seriously mulling over the whole palm-issues versus animal products as a hardener thing, but I think we're going to mostly go with local and green and do the animal fat most of the time, and then use other options for all vegetable options.


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## Booko (Sep 15, 2014)

Susie said:


> Hydrogenation does not change whether it is rendered fat of pigs/pork.  It is simply adding hydrogen.  Which is present in every drop of water you drink.  You don't absorb trans fats from soap.



Hydrogenation is not creating a mixture of one chemical and some hydrogen gas, which is what you just described.

It's a chemical reaction.  You end up with a different chemical.

Trans isomerism around a double bond does not occur in nature.  Only cis isomerism does.  The hydrogenation process used in food production only produces trans isomers.  Thus the moniker "trans fat."

Some peoples' bodies react to trans hydrocarbons as foreign substances, which is to say, their immune system responds as if it were dangerous, and voila...rashes or worse.

My daughter and I happen to be two people who react adversely.  The guys in the family, lucky them, do not.

Not that it means a darned thing for soapmaking obviously, but I'm a chemist.  

Oh and yes, you certainly do absorb trans fats from the soap.  Also scents, dyes, or anything else.

Were our skins completely impervious to liquids, it sure would make finding a soap we can safely use much easier, but skin is not like a plastic bag, and whatever you put on your skin, you take in internally somewhat.

One of our friends has a deadly peanut allergy.  If he as much as touches chicken from Chick-fil-a (cooked in peanut oil), he will stop breathing.  Needless to say we don't get near a Chick-fil-a for hours before we go visit him.

Allergies are very serious stuff for those of us who live with them.  

For any of the fine soapmakers on here who sell product, if someone asks you, please don't try to tell them the soap is harmless though it has something in there they are allergic to, because that is flat out wrong.


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## Booko (Sep 15, 2014)

sassanellat said:


> Susie - Until I read this thread, I didn't know that Manteca was slightly flavored, so that was interesting (I just thought that it was a different word for lard).



Manteca can be flavored or unflavored.  Unfortunately all I'm finding around is here flavored, and my Spanish is awful lol.  There are probably regional differences, and for all I know the large quantity of people we have from Central America is why the manteca always has stuff in it.  Maybe that's their tradition?



> We've been seriously mulling over the whole palm-issues versus animal products as a hardener thing, but I think we're going to mostly go with local and green and do the animal fat most of the time, and then use other options for all vegetable options.



It gets difficult to do the right thing, environmentally speaking!  I understand why many people may not want to use animal fat, either for moral or environmental reasons.

The thing is there's a lot of deforestation going on now in tropical areas because palm oil is all the rage and global demand is too high.

It seems like no matter what I try to do I end up with a big *facepalm* sometimes.


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## Booko (Sep 15, 2014)

neeners said:


> have you ever asked to buy pork belly?  b/c the fat I got was from the belly.  made a really white lard.  I have no idea what Manteca is so I can't help you there.



The pork belly here is sliced into nice bacon for the most part, and the Asians buy it like crazy.  And I'm experimenting with curing some right now.  



> can you buy beef fat in your halal butcher?



Since it's halal the price is probably out of this world.  But it can't hurt to ask!

I know it's crazy I can't just find plain old pork belly here in the South.  But I live in Atlanta, so that's nothing like anywhere else in the state.  Much of the city is transplants like me.

I'm thinking I should try to find a butcher up in N. Georgia I can visit  on the way to apple country, where I'll be going in another month or  so.  That'll save me some gas.


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## Booko (Sep 15, 2014)

Susie said:


> The Armour lard in my store is labelled Manteca.  It is what I use for every batch of bar soap.  It contains the following:  lard and hydrogenated lard, BHA, Propyl Gallate, and Citric Acid.
> 
> We are going to need a chemistry intervention here, so any of you science types can help?  Here is what I can find on the internet about BHA:
> 
> ...



What did you want to know?

BHA and BHT are suspected carcinogens or are just carcinogens, depending on which nation you ask.  Those I tend to avoid.

And yes, most scientific research of any value is behind paywalls and not available on the Internet.  And how does a layman know a good study from a bad one.  Even experts in a field mess that up sometimes. :sad:  Been there, done that.

Also, one or a few studies don't necessarily prove anything. And just because the US government calls something safe, well that doesn't mean anything.  Our process to evaluate chemical dangers is especially flawed.  I'd rather see what the Canadians think, as they seem to be pretty even-handed.

Propyl gallate isn't a known or suspected carcinogen, which is something.  It's a suspected endocrine disruptor, which for me means I wouldn't ingest it, but in soap?  I'm not allergic I probably wouldn't avoid it myself.

The dose makes the poison.  

Honestly if you use nail polish you're poisoning yourself more than you could using a bit of propyl gallate in something you put in soap.

Even if you don't use beauty products with endocrine disruptors, if you use cleaning products like a typical American, the propyl gallate exposure in a soap is negligible compared to that.  It's not inhaled - it will only be absorbed through the pores, and most of it washes off.

Bottom line, unless someone has an allergic response or an autoimmune disorder, I wouldn't be concerned about it in a soap.  But people have different levels of what they choose to tolerate, and if people are more of a stickler than I am, I figure that's their business.


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## sassanellat (Sep 15, 2014)

I don't want to put a kabosh on your whole comment (because you are partly, or mostly correct), but as someone that actually is a long time scientist (biologist - microbial and human) that publishes in this particular area, you pretty dramatically overstate what can be and is absorbed though the skin. In fact, most fatty substances do not even make it through the (dead) epidermis, and most of what does is quickly munched up by the skin microflora. Smaller organic and inorganic molecules of a polar variety (proteins included) have a better shot, especially if the applied mixture is designed to increase penetration (like many moisturizing lotions). So, the blanket statement that all those other things get absorbed in detectable amounts is simply not correct, especially in 'rinse off' products (and there is tons of published data on the subject, in particularly in cosmetic science). The outer skin is an absolutely astonishing barrier to pretty much anything, but the mucous membranes are a different story. Anaphylaxis only occurs when enough of the superantigen gets into circulations and activates massive basophilar histamine release, and only in the very rarest of cases does this happen without the superantigen being ingested or being applied to the mucous membranes. *shrugs* And yes, hydrogenation does form a mixture of _cis_ and _trans_ products (where _cis_ is pretty favored). This often means they are not very digestible (and that's why they tend to accumulate in your arteries as arteriosclerosis). OTOH, skin microflora don't really care about that, as they process the FAs differently and we've evolved them to handle all the weird cosmetics we add to our skin. Our immune systems, however, can develop an inappropriate response to the unnatural fats, and as someone with a lot of allergies, I have every sympathy for yours. I tend to avoid hydrogenated products as well - though mostly to avoid developing any additional allergies. But, as I have to explain to all the chemists I work with when designing new products (drugs, not cosmetics), there is a huge difference between chemistry of something and what happens with the biology.


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## sassanellat (Sep 15, 2014)

Susie & Booko - I know what you mean. I'd lean to palm, but with the orangutan habitat and rainforest destruction, regular palm is out, and the RSPO palm... well, I'm a bit dubious there. It's still grown on soil not really mean for that kind of crop and not always under fair worker practices. OTOH, most of the fat is headed to the landfill, where most is converted to methane by anaerobic bacteria - and the methane escapes into the air and is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Making soap with the animal fat 1) does not encourage the meat industry or increase it, 2) doesn't promote meat or animal fat consumption, 3) it's a closer FA distribution to human and has fewer 'difficult' FAs to metabolize, 4) it's probably less potentially allergenic, 5) it minimizes landfill waste, and 5) it lowers greenhouse gas production since the saponified FAs in water are readily converted to CO2 or fixed organic matter by bacteria in the waste stream. I was very surprised myself, and I have my graduate degree in the area.


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## sassanellat (Sep 15, 2014)

Booko - Much of the scientific knowledge in existence is, in fact, free. Most of the modern science (government funded) is required to be public and has been for some time. And while instant access to some journals over the internet does sometimes cost, the journals sit in libraries (the rarer ones in university libraries). You can get any of them by ILL at any public library, or just ask for a copy of the article, which will cost you the copying fee. I mention it just so people that don't realize this can get access if they really need to.


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## neeners (Sep 15, 2014)

Booko said:


> I know it's crazy I can't just find plain old pork belly here in the South. But I live in Atlanta, so that's nothing like anywhere else in the state. Much of the city is transplants like me.
> 
> I'm thinking I should try to find a butcher up in N. Georgia I can visit on the way to apple country, where I'll be going in another month or so. That'll save me some gas.



 have you gone to your local farmers market or old time butcher shop and ask for fat scraps?  I got mine from a pork producer at the farmers market.  he had piles of belly fat lying around.


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## Booko (Sep 17, 2014)

sassanellat said:


> I don't want to put a kabosh on your whole comment (because you are partly, or mostly correct), but as someone that actually is a long time scientist (biologist - microbial and human) that publishes in this particular area, you pretty dramatically overstate what can be and is absorbed though the skin.



You're right, I did.  It's a forum and yes, I tend to keep things short because people's eyes glaze over.  Since you also publish I'm sure you know how this is talking to the general public.  I don't generally talk about my work in any detail.  (Aside from which I'm retired from that so there isn't much to talk about now.)



> Our immune systems, however, can develop an inappropriate response to the unnatural fats, and as someone with a lot of allergies, I have every sympathy for yours. I tend to avoid hydrogenated products as well - though mostly to avoid developing any additional allergies. But, as I have to explain to all the chemists I work with when designing new products (drugs, not cosmetics), there is a huge difference between chemistry of something and what happens with the biology.



True, and as I'm a chemist not a biologist, obviously I'll defer to you.  Industrial pollutants I've done some work with, but not on the biology side of things in any formal way. 

Your information was excellent reading, btw.  Thanks for taking the time.

I'm sorry to hear you're in the same sort of boat we are here.  Yes, the snowball effect of allergies is enough to make a person quite paranoid.  Which we are, and so I figured what the heck I may as well try making my own soap.  Less is more.

I managed to save some tallow off my beef stock I made yesterday.  So at least I can put off trying to find some actual lard (or something to render) for the near future.

It may smell slightly like thyme, but at this point I don't think I even care.  I'm ok with thymol at least.


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## sassanellat (Sep 17, 2014)

Booko - I'm hoping to do my first CP in about six weeks myself. I have a new class to teach this semester (nutrition), and it always sucks the first time because of all the extra work. In the mean time, I've been doing a bit of MP and testing the EOs I have for scent and to see if I'm allergic (winces). No sense in planning product lines if I can't be involved in the production. And like you, I've been inspired by the ability to have more control over my chemical exposures to make my own soaps and products. 

I think we're going to test tallow and lard (and probably a 50/50 mix) soaps, too. It's always a safer bet to go with base materials that you know you aren't allergic to up front. That's one of the great thing about the EOs - many of them come from foods that you've already (unwittingly) pre-screened.


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