# EWax vs Beeswax for lotion



## Kay (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm confused. I've been reading up on making lotions, and I've made a few myself, with beeswax. I'm basically happy with it, but I notice when I sweat, the sweat feels more oily than watery. I'm sure this is because of the beeswax, right? Since it's basically laying on top of my skin.  Also, I understand that in order to use beeswax as an emulsifier, you have to add borax. Ok, so I'm reading up on E-Wax, thinking it's an alternative. But everywhere I see E-Wax I see stearic acid added with it. So what makes this combo any better than the beeswax and borax combo? Does E-Wax emulsify by itself, or do you HAVE to add stearic acid? Is E-wax (with or without the acid) going to absorb better into my skin? Or is it going to basically lay on top of my skin like the beeswax?

Edited: After more reading, I understand what stearic acid is now. It's to thicken more than anything else, from my understanding. It thickens like a butter would, only you don't have to use as much to achieve the same thickness. But I still have the question of whether EWax would absorb more readily than beeswax. Anyone?


----------



## la-rene (Jun 7, 2013)

Hey!  So, I make lotion with e-wax and stearic acid.  I have never made lotion with beeswax until today, but it was a lotion bar, so not sure how it would be in a liquid/cream.  But, I love my lotion with e-wax.  I find it only gets a little waxy on skin if I add too much stearic.  Otherwise, it's just a really nice lotion, absorbs quickly.  What makes my lotions greasy could be the oils I use.  I find some better than others.  I'm currently doing a 75- 76% water, 15-16% oil 5% e-wax 4-5% stearic, I work those numbers around to 100%, then preservative and fragrance on top of that.

LA


----------



## Kay (Jun 7, 2013)

I realize what oils/butters you use will affect the greasiness of the lotion. What I'm looking for is the comparison of beeswax vs emulsifying wax. My lotion doesn't feel greasy at all when I put it on. It's just.....well, in the middle of the night, when I get hot flashes  my sweat feels more oily than it used to, before I started making my own lotion. Does anyone know what's in emulsifying wax that causes it to emulsify all by itself?

I do appreciate your input la-rene! You're the only one who's posted. I was beginning to think I'm asking a dumb question here.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jun 7, 2013)

An emulsifier creates some thickness, but sometimes not enough. Once the correct amount of emulsifier has been added to properly emulsify the oil and water, it is better to add some type of thickener to get the desired viscosity, rather than add more emulsifier. The functions of a thickener like stearic acid are to add additional thickness to the product and to help stabilize the emulsion over the normal range of temperatures the lotion will see. 

You are right that butters (mango, shea, etc) if present also act as thickeners, but be aware of their limitations. They might work fine in winter, but some butters soften and melt at normal summer temperatures, which can cause your lotion to become too thin. A thickener like stearic is stable at normal ambient temperatures.

If you think your butters and/or your emulsifier may thicken your recipe well enough without a separate thickener, leave it out and see how your lotion works. Nothing horrible will happen if you do. If the emulsion is not as long-term stable as you would like or the lotion is too fluid for your preference, then add a touch of thickener back in.

Another thickener you may want to look into is cetyl alcohol.  Cetyl has a lighter skin feel a little more like whipped cream. Stearic creates a heavier skin feel, a bit like sour cream.

Your choice of emulsifier will also affect skin feel. E-wax (emulsifying wax) is an all-in-one emulsifier that works well for home crafters. It tends to give a "glidy", greasier feeling to a lotion. Conditioning emulsifier (BTMS is one company's product for this type of emulsifier) is another all-in-one emulsifier that gives a drier, more powdery feeling to a lotion. 

(A side note: Conditioning emulsifier is also nice for a hair conditioner because it can "stick" to the hair shaft due to it's electrical charge. A product made with e-wax will not condition hair because e-wax has no electrical charge -- it can't stick to the hair and will just rinse right off. You can even make a super simple, basic hair conditioner just with conditioning emulsifier, water, and preservative.)

With all that said about thickeners and emulsifiers, I am also wondering about your choice of fats and the percentage of water in your lotion. These factors also play a big role in skin feel. To make a drier, lighter lotion, omit or reduce the butters. Of the butters you might use, substitute drier butters (mango, babassu, illipe) in place of greasier butters (shea). Minimize or eliminate heavy oils (olive, avocado, almond, rice bran, sesame, castor, etc) that absorb slowly and have a waxy or greasy skin feel. Switch to lighter, drier oils (jojoba, fractionated coconut, meadowfoam seed, camellia, hemp, apricot, etc.) that absorb quickly and have a silky skin feel.

Play with increasing the water content for a lighter lotion that might feel nicer in warm weather. A lotion with 70% water is fairly heavy which is great for winter. Increase the water to 80% in the same recipe and the skin feel changes dramatically. A lighter lotion will mean you will apply less oil to your skin and that may reduce the sticky, oily feeling you don't like. If you are using an ineffective emulsifier, the more watery the lotion, the more likely your emulsion will separate and fail.

I'm going to add a gentle plug for preservatives, in case anyone reading this has not been using a reliable preservative in oil-and-water lotions. Fungi and bacteria are very natural organisms, and they thrive in "all natural" oil-and-water emulsions made without preservatives. A fungal or bacterial infection of the skin or eyes from a contaminated lotion can be serious and life changing. Making a lotion without a preservative is similar to not wearing eye protection when making soap. It might be fine most of the time, but one tiny lye splash in the eye can have life changing, permanent consequences. It's so not worth the risk!


----------



## Kay (Jun 7, 2013)

Thank you DeeAnna! You are a life saver once again! I'm studying various emulsifiers right now, trying to figure out which one I think I might like best. Do you or anyone else have any experience with Polysorbate 80? Since I already have some beeswax, and we have a bee keeper wanting to 'set up shop' in one of our fields (free beeswax!) I was wondering about using polysorbate 80 with beeswax? Or what about polysorbate 80 all by itself? What about lecithin? I'm going to check out this conditioning emulsifier you are talking about. That sounds interesting to me also. Would someone happen to have a good link for that?

I'm just FULL of questions, ain't I??


----------



## DeeAnna (Jun 7, 2013)

*Earth to DeeAnna--Her name is KAY, not Liz! I'm sorry, Kay!*

Not a dumb question, Kay. Just a complicated one.

I have never used beeswax and borax so I can't compare it to e-wax. I agree with you that beeswax alone is a thickener only; it is not an emulsifier, so any lotion made with beeswax (or just stearic acid or cetyl alcohol) will not be reliably stable. I have used beeswax in lotion bars and lip balm, and it's my opinion that beeswax can be comfortable on the skin with the right kind of oils and the right proportions of ingredients.

To finally answer your question, I have also noticed the same "oily/greasy/overly-warm sensation on my skin when I sweat" thing that you are feeling. I don't have a sure-fire answer, but I do have a couple of ideas. 

I don't get that sensation as much now that I've been use a lotion with 80% water. A thicker version of the same recipe -- same proportion of oils, but with 70% water -- is not as comfortable to me. I think that is because the oils and other ingredients in the high-water lotion get spread out more thinly on the skin, so there is less oil, emulsifier, thickener, etc. to sweat through.

I am also experimenting with using conditioning emulsifier as part or all of the emulsifier in a recipe. I want to see if that product minimizes this issue versus the e-wax. So far I don't have a sure-fire answer, but I have to say I'm leaning toward conditioning emulsifier as being a bit more comfortable.

PS -- I don't have a clue about Polysorbate 80. Good luck on that one!

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2009/10/emulsifying-systems-e-wax-polawax-and.html
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/09/esters-polysorbates.html


----------



## Kay (Jun 7, 2013)

"I think that is because the oils and other ingredients in the high-water lotion get spread out more thinly on the skin, so there is less oil, emulsifier, thickener, etc. to sweat through." Now that you mention it, that could be it! Maybe it isn't the beeswax perse, it's just that the overall consistency is so dense with oils. The lotion I've been using is about a 50/50 split. Thanks DeeAnna!


----------



## DeeAnna (Jun 7, 2013)

Hmm, yes, a 50% lotion is what I would call a cream (50% up to 70% water) than a lotion (70% or more water). That would be pretty heavy for my skin. Try a lighter version and see what you think. Be aware that if you use just beeswax to thicken it, the lotion will be less stable the more water you add, so using a true emulsifier is going to be more critical. I am very curious to see what you think, Kay -- be sure to share the results, please? This is something I'm learning about too....


----------



## la-rene (Jun 7, 2013)

Kay, I wasn't implying that your lotion was greasy, I swear!  

Just some of mine that I've experimented with, so when I mentioned it along with the e-wax, I meant that I've figured it out that it was the oils not the e-wax giving a heavier/greasy/not soaking in feeling to it and too much stearic giving it the waxy feel.  

Maybe the more oily feel in the night is because it is natural and doesn't have *reading from my commercial Suave lotion here* Mineral Oil, Cetyl Alcohol and petroleum among other things....  (seriously, I only have that here at work because people steal my lotion.  Though not so much since I work with all guys and I replaced with baby powder smelling lotion. hehehe)  

But, it sounds like DeeAnna has a lot more experience than I do and I need to peruse her post very closely. lol!  

I will say that my last batch with the 4% stearic 5% e-wax is my favorite so far.  I am moisturized all night, with no greasy residue like previous batches. I even use it on my face.

I do know that the e-wax I use is from Brambleberry and I like it very much, but honestly, I don't have any comparison.  Though, I have used polysorbate 20 to emulsify essential/fragrance and distilled water.  It works good for a 1:1 ratio.  I have added more than 1:1 of oil and everything just separates out.


----------



## Mommysoaper (Jun 8, 2013)

Definitely check out swiftcraftymonkey's blog like DeeAnna posted.  She has a wealth of valuable information on formulating lotions and other body products.  From reading her blog, I think you need to use another emulsifier (such as glycol distearate) in combination with polysorbate 80 for it to be effective.  I do like polysorbate 80 in other things though-- bath bombs and liquid soaps.


----------



## Kay (Jun 8, 2013)

Yes, I'm leaning towards the Polysorbate 80 myself.


----------



## mythian (Jun 9, 2013)

Hi Kay

Friends, customers and I have found that creams and lotions (containing emulsifiers, we discovered) also leave our skin feeling sweaty and 'claustrophobic', so to that end, I've done away with creams and lotions and now only make natural, anhydrous products. We've since found that they do the job admirably, there's no skin sweating whatsoever, and best of all, skin feels like it can breathe


----------



## Anne121x (Aug 19, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> An emulsifier creates some thickness, but sometimes not enough. Once the correct amount of emulsifier has been added to properly emulsify the oil and water, it is better to add some type of thickener to get the desired viscosity, rather than add more emulsifier. The functions of a thickener like stearic acid are to add additional thickness to the product and to help stabilize the emulsion over the normal range of temperatures the lotion will see.
> 
> You are right that butters (mango, shea, etc) if present also act as thickeners, but be aware of their limitations. They might work fine in winter, but some butters soften and melt at normal summer temperatures, which can cause your lotion to become too thin. A thickener like stearic is stable at normal ambient temperatures.
> 
> ...


Hi DeeAnna,
Thanks for all your knowledge. I have a question regarding the % of E-wax. If I increase the water % do I increase the e-wax or is it decreased because there is less oil to emulsify?  I usually use 65% Aqua, 30% oil, 5% e-wax (mostly Btms25) but my creams come out quite soapy. Do I  have too much e-wax..too little? Thanks x


----------



## shunt2011 (Aug 19, 2018)

Anne121x said:


> Hi DeeAnna,
> Thanks for all your knowledge. I have a question regarding the % of E-wax. If I increase the water % do I increase the e-wax or is it decreased because there is less oil to emulsify?  I usually use 65% Aqua, 30% oil, 5% e-wax (mostly Btms25) but my creams come out quite soapy. Do I  have too much e-wax..too little? Thanks x



This post is 5 years old. You would be better served to start a new thread and add a link to this one for reference.


----------



## DeeAnna (Aug 19, 2018)

I agree with Shari (shunt). This is an old thread and would be better to start a new one. because people who have good information to contribute to _your _question may not read and respond to an old thread that is asking a somewhat different question.

But to answer your question -- The water-soluble ingredients do not count when determining the amount of emulsifier. The emulsifier weight is usually calculated as percentage of the weight of the fat-soluble ingredients only. 

By the way, BTMS is an entirely different emulsifier than e-wax -- they are not the same thing. BTMS can create a soaping effect. E-wax is less likely to do this.


----------



## Anne121x (Aug 19, 2018)

Tha


DeeAnna said:


> I agree with Shari (shunt). This is an old thread and would be better to start a new one. because people who have good information to contribute to _your _question may not read and respond to an old thread that is asking a somewhat different question.
> 
> But to answer your question -- The water-soluble ingredients do not count when determining the amount of emulsifier. The emulsifier weight is usually calculated as percentage of the weight of the fat-soluble ingredients only.
> 
> By the way, BTMS is an entirely different emulsifier than e-wax -- they are not the same thing. BTMS can create a soaping effect. E-wax is less likely to do this.



Thanks a million girls. Will do and will try using E-wax instead of BTMS. XX


----------



## Crystal JT Kennedy (Aug 19, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2009/10/emulsifying-systems-e-wax-polawax-and.html
> http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/09/esters-polysorbates.html


*All I get there is this: 
This blog is open to invited readers only*
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/
It doesn't look like you have been invited to read this blog. If you think this is a mistake, you might want to contact the blog author and request an invitation.


----------



## KimT2au (Aug 19, 2018)

Hi, Marie from Humblebee &Me has a bit on beeswax/e-wax/water content here  http://www.humblebeeandme.com/faqs/dont-like-sounds-emulsifying-wax-can-use-beeswax-plant-based-wax-instead/  
http://www.humblebeeandme.com/faqs/emulsifying-waxes-e-waxes/

I am not sure if this info is of any help or not, I hope it is.


----------

