# Pine tar ls



## seven (Aug 25, 2014)

Anyone did it? Got a request from a customer. Goggled around and all i can find is the shampoo, which is syndet.


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## reinbeau (Aug 25, 2014)

Not sure what you're asking.


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## Susie (Aug 25, 2014)

They are asking if anyone has made pine tar liquid soap.


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## Meganmischke (Aug 25, 2014)

I would imagine it can be cooked into the paste before dilution. I don't know how much you can get in there before having problems with diluting.  I have never done it but it seems that anything over 5% would not dissolve I  water as pt is not water soluble.  It might work. Let us know if you try.


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## seven (Aug 25, 2014)

yes, Susie is right, i was asking whether anyone has done pine tar liquid soap. making a small batch as we speak. i think the color is going to be rather unattractive, but i don't care. most who bought pine tar soaps are ones with skin problems, so they usually don't care about fancy schmancy soaps.


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## Meganmischke (Aug 25, 2014)

How much pt did you add?


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## seven (Aug 25, 2014)

5%. it's currently cooking. i will post pics once it's done and diluted.


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## Meganmischke (Aug 28, 2014)

I am curious how this worked out for you.


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## seven (Aug 29, 2014)

it worked out alright at the end. the paste did not go rock hard. it was soft all the way. but i've zap tested it and PH tested it. the color is, well, dark brown, lol. i will post pics soon. it has finished diluting, but i haven't put it in bottles.


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## cmzaha (Aug 29, 2014)

seven said:


> it worked out alright at the end. the paste did not go rock hard. it was soft all the way. but i've zap tested it and PH tested it. the color is, well, dark brown, lol. i will post pics soon. it has finished diluting, but i haven't put it in bottles.


 When I was doing some single oil LS I had some that never  became a solid paste. SAO and RBO are two that I can think of at the moment


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## seven (Aug 29, 2014)

^^^
Carolyn, at first i thought i was doing something wrong. coz the tutorial i was following showed something really different. thank god for Susie. i thought the rock hard paste is a must, lol


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## Lindy (Aug 29, 2014)

I usually don't take it to rock hard but then as soon as it is zap free I start diluting it, makes for an easier dilution.


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## seven (Aug 29, 2014)

^^^
some recipes just won't go hard, i have no idea why, lol. i can just feel it, the soft ones will suddenly went deflated. and at first i was in a panic mode. my early batches, i have 1-2 that i threw away coz i thought i did something wrong. stupid!


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## seven (Sep 3, 2014)

as promised, here they are already bottled. as you can see, the color is rather unattractive. i've thickened them up with a bit of salt.


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## Pears (Sep 11, 2014)

It looks good to me, Seven. Anyone who wants a tar soap will likely expect for it to be dark in color. Did you add any fragrance? Essential oils of Rosemary, Thyme, Lavender, Clove and Cassia (or Cinnamon leaf) blend particularly well with tars.


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## seven (Sep 11, 2014)

thank you Pears. no, i did not add any scent. i'm trying to make it as natural as possible, considering the majority of customer who bought this product is people with skin problems.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 11, 2014)

Looks very good.  Do you think it would be possible with 15-20% PT?  I like using it on my hair, but was thinking of a liquid soap as a shampoo type product.


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## seven (Sep 11, 2014)

^^^
i'm trying to answer logically here... and i think it's possible. with bar soap, i won't go that high because pt makes the bar soft. i've tried 15% and it was a mess (sticky for a long long time). but since this is liquid, i don't see why not.

can i ask you why you would like to go that high?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 14, 2014)

seven said:


> ...........can i ask you why you would like to go that high?



I think at less than 10% it really isn't going to be doing too much good when all is said and done.  I think even 15% is not going to be too strong, but as you said, in a bar soap 15% is getting towards the edge of workable limits.


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## Meganmischke (Sep 15, 2014)

I love how dark it looks.  How much water did you dilute with? I looks so good I might try some too. I would think 20% would be fine since you are diluting. Honestly I more is good when it comes to pt. I would use 20% + in soap if it didn't stay so soft.


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## seven (Sep 17, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I think at less than 10% it really isn't going to be doing too much good when all is said and done.  I think even 15% is not going to be too strong, but as you said, in a bar soap 15% is getting towards the edge of workable limits.



i've heard this before, i've also heard some are putting as high as 20 something % in their soap (for the reason you stated above). to be honest, i am really curious about this, what is the foundation for such number, any clinical studies or else? i've googled around, but found none so far.
my bar soap is at 10%, and so far i have quite good feedback from the people who purchased it. i can't imagine putting more than 15%, i've tried it before and it didn't work out.
i was a bit skeptical when i did my 1st LS (did not know what to expect), so i did not put much (5%), but next time i am going to bump it up to my usual 10% or perhaps slightly more.



Meganmischke said:


> I love how dark it looks.  How much water did you dilute with? I looks so good I might try some too. I would think 20% would be fine since you are diluting. Honestly I more is good when it comes to pt. I would use 20% + in soap if it didn't stay so soft.



dilution is at slightly more than 1:1. i didn't remember the exact number, i started at 1:1 and added a tiny bit more. i ended up thickening it with a bit of salt.
you were right, i think putting more pt in LS is okay compared to bar soap. not too sure about going as high as 20. i mean, if it works at 10, why put more?


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## DeeAnna (Sep 17, 2014)

Something I wrote awhile ago that relates, I think, to this discussion:

***

Little research has been done on the efficacy of pine tar, but the studies I have uncovered showed PT had little or no effect on helping skin problems. (And the US FDA came to the same conclusions.) That said, there are decades of anecdotal stories that say PT does have some benefit for some skin issues.

"Grandpa's" pine tar soap gets glowing reviews on Amazon, but I am pretty sure it has a low % of PT. The makers of this particular product don't disclose the exact amount but my opinion is that it's under 5%. The color of the soap is telling, at least in my opinion. "Grandpa's" is a honey color, not a dark brown or near black color like most handcrafted PT soaps with 10% or more PT.

So is the placebo effect alive and well? Or is there something to it? I really don't know.

What I can say is that if a PT soap is truly going to be helpful for a skin condition, then ~how~ one uses the soap might be just as effective as the % of PT in the soap. If you lather up and rinse off, as most people use soap in the bath, there will be very little time for the PT to have any effect, good or bad. If you lather up and let the suds stay on the skin for some time, then a soap with even a low % of PT might have some beneficial effect.

***

Even in the mid-late 1800s and early 1900s, authors of soap making texts were divided on how much PT to use in soap ... and were unsure whether the PT actually offered some health benefit. So this question has been debated for many, many years without a lot of concrete evidence to back up the varied opinions. 

My husband likes it just for the smell, so I make 10% PT bar soap purely for his enjoyment. If I offer it to friends and family, it's on the same basis. I can't honestly make any other claims for this soap -- compelling evidence isn't there.


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## JustBeachy (Dec 3, 2014)

I make a 20% PT soap that hardens up quite nicely. While I can't speak to the authenticity in regards to the studies about effectiveness, I can say my test subjects (nieces, nephews, in laws and a grand daughter) always let me know when they're running low. Niece and nephews swear it's the only thing they've used that cleared up their faces. One sister in law, a pediatrician btw, says it works like a charm. And the granddaughter has eczema like skin patches, that get dry and itchy, from being on extended antibiotics. Since we started bathing her twice a week with the soap, she rarely complains about any itching and the dry patches have seemed to have disappeared. 

Is it anecdotal or placebo effect?  Scientifically I would have to agree that it could be. Test group is pretty small. But it seems to be working, so I'm destined to continue making batches of the soap, or become the hated uncle.


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## Susie (Dec 3, 2014)

Is granddaughter being bathed with store bought soap when not being bathed with pine tar soap?  If so, it is probably the lack of detergents in the pine tar soap rather than the pine tar in the soap.  Switching to hand made soap pretty much "cured" my eczema.  I understand it is not that the soap is the cure, it is the lack of the detergents and such in the store bought stuff.


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## JustBeachy (Dec 3, 2014)

Susie said:


> Is granddaughter being bathed with store bought soap when not being bathed with pine tar soap?  If so, it is probably the lack of detergents in the pine tar soap rather than the pine tar in the soap.  Switching to hand made soap pretty much "cured" my eczema.  I understand it is not that the soap is the cure, it is the lack of the detergents and such in the store bought stuff.



No she isnt'. Good thought though.  In between pine tar baths, she uses my 100% Olive Oil, Castille soap.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 3, 2014)

Yeah, this is the problem with anecdotal data. In most personal-experience stories, the question of "is the improvement specifically due to the PT?" still remains unanswered. Was it instead due to the switch to soap from non-soap surfactants? Was it due to eliminating or changing trace ingredients such as fragrance, preservatives, antioxidants, etc.? Or something else? 

I'm truly not saying this as criticism directed toward JustBeachy's pine tar soap -- this is just my thoughts about anecdotal stories in general. I can say that switching from non-soap cleansers to lye soap has made my skin less dry and itchy especially in winter. Something has changed to make my skin happier. Although I have my suspicions -- SLS (Sodium lauryl sulfate) detergent is a prime suspect -- I can't say that for absolutely sure. 

In my case, just switching to a non-SLS cleanser might have been another solution to my problem, rather than switch to handmade lye soap. But I like my handcrafted soap better, if for no other reason than I like to make it.


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## Susie (Dec 3, 2014)

Me too.  Never in my life have I ever had such a happier coincidence.  Not itching makes me incredibly happy, then making soap makes me happier yet.


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## cmzaha (Dec 3, 2014)

Pine tar soaps and shampoos have long been used and I have seen pine tar shampoo help psorisis on the scalp. While I was allergic to it and could not use it for years I did use it on customers that were prescribed pine tar based shampoos and witnessed it helping them. It is great stuff for people not allergic. I have found out recently I no longer seem to be bothered by it but only handle it in small amounts in case the allergy to it re-surfaces. I make pine tar for my daughter and it is all that is helping her now. We have gone through the gamut of eo's, soap's etc over the years. She is one that can usually not use lye soaps, but the ine tar she is doing well with. For awhile she could only use her sls free m&p but cannot use them anymore either


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## Susie (Dec 3, 2014)

I believe you.  The only problem is that there are no good studies done on pine tar soaps that distinguish the effects of pine tar vs say an olive oil soap to clearly indicate where the benefit is coming from.  That is what DeeAnna is saying also.  With well run double-blind studies showing the efficacy of pine tar, the FDA might actually be forced to allow soapers to say that pine tar soap "cures" all the things that it has been long known to work on.  I would not hold my breath, though, as usually it takes big business throwing lots of money at an institution to get such studies done.  And there is little or no profit margin in hand made soap with pine tar in it.

*Note:  this is NOT an anti-FDA or anti-big drug companies rant.  This is a simple statement of fact.  I will not defend my position on the FDA or big business if anyone attempts to hijack this thread.


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## JustBeachy (Dec 3, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> Yeah, this is the problem with anecdotal data. In most personal-experience stories, the question of "is the improvement specifically due to the PT?" still remains unanswered. Was it instead due to the switch to soap from non-soap surfactants? Was it due to eliminating or changing trace ingredients such as fragrance, preservatives, antioxidants, etc.? Or something else?
> 
> I'm truly not saying this as criticism directed toward JustBeachy's pine tar soap -- this is just my thoughts about anecdotal stories in general. I can say that switching from non-soap cleansers to lye soap has made my skin less dry and itchy especially in winter. Something has changed to make my skin happier. Although I have my suspicions -- SLS (Sodium lauryl sulfate) detergent is a prime suspect -- I can't say that for absolutely sure.
> 
> In my case, just switching to a non-SLS cleanser might have been another solution to my problem, rather than switch to handmade lye soap. But I like my handcrafted soap better, if for no other reason than I like to make it.



I don't take it as criticism at all, DeeAnna. It's again, one of those things I can't prove either way, so I'm always open to other idea's/opinions.

One of the things that you left out, that I was at first thinking of with the niece/nephew acne solution was the amount of washing. That is, were they washing their face regularly with other products?  Is it just because they liked the idea that this soap would work, if they used it twice a day, so they're staying on a schedule?  Since the majority of breakouts are due to bacteria on the skin, a morning and evening wash will do wonders. 

It doesn't explain the granddaughter however. She was using my Castille for the last year or so. (It's part of what got me back into making soap)  So the change in the last month or so can't be attributed to pulling her off of store bought soap. 

I'm thinking there isn't any way to prove it works. What may be working great for my test monkeys, aka relatives, may not work for the next person. That's the reason it would be hard to prove without a doubt. That said, if it ain't broke don't try to fix it. I'll keep providing them with the PT. :razz:


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## DeeAnna (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm all for not fixing things that ain't broke -- especially when supplying soap to the family is satisfying and fun for the soaper. That's a win-win solution if ya ask me.


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## girlishcharm2004 (Dec 11, 2014)

The Psoriasis Foundation seems to believe that pine tar helps.  I wonder where they got their information/research from.  

https://www.psoriasis.org/sublearn03_mild_otc


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## reinbeau (Dec 11, 2014)

girlishcharm2004 said:


> The Psoriasis Foundation seems to believe that pine tar helps.  I wonder where they got their information/research from.
> 
> https://www.psoriasis.org/sublearn03_mild_otc


That says specifically 'coal tar'. 



> Tar derived from both coal and wood (e.g., juniper, pine) are both used  for medicinal purposes. However, coal tar is the type used most commonly  to treat psoriasis.


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## girlishcharm2004 (Dec 11, 2014)

reinbeau said:


> That says specifically 'coal tar'.



You are right.  The title does say specifically "Coal Tar".  I had assumed they meant both because they said they were both used medicinally, even though coal tar is more common. My mistake.


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