# Bittercreek North Vanilla Stabilizer



## Cellador (Jul 30, 2018)

Hi all! I just wanted to post my results using BCN'S VS on a couple different WSP FOs. These soaps were made about a week ago. I'm actually pretty impressed by the results.
TOP, L to R: Sensual Amber (1.9%), Bourbon Vanilla (4%)
BOTTOM, L to R: Vanilla Oak (9%), White Pumpkin Puree (4.3%).

I'm actually very curious about the White Pumkin Puree. Are there other factors besides the vanilla content that causes the dark discoloration? I would have thought the Vanilla Oak would be the darkest...


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## shunt2011 (Jul 30, 2018)

I’ve found theirs to work the best long term. I made a champagne vanilla that generally turns pretty brown in February  and made it in shades of blue and white and it’s still going strong.


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## msunnerstood (Jul 30, 2018)

I made lemon meringue with BCN VS and its doing very well without a hint of discoloration.


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## earlene (Jul 31, 2018)

Impressive!


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## jcandleattic (Jul 31, 2018)

Cellador said:


> Are there other factors besides the vanilla content that causes the dark discoloration


Definitely. Most of the time the stabilizer will work with those other components as well (in my experience) but not always.

I agree with shunt about BCN's VS longevity. I make pink sugar a lot, and use it a lot as a mixer, and we all know how dark that one gets, but with BCN's stabilizer, I can stave off any darkening for at least 9 months to a year, sometimes as long as 18 months before the edges will start to turn.
I have a bar that is about 9 years old? Maybe, I'd have to look, but only the edges turned dark, otherwise it's still the same color I made it back then. (yes, that's a pink sugar bar I'm talking about)

(Just looked it up, it was almost 7 years ago - it's this soap in this post - https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/peachy-pinkish-pink-sugar-soap.24475/
and, if I remember, I will take a pic of the actual soap I still have)


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## Cellador (Jul 31, 2018)

Glad to know it will last awhile. I am really pleased with the results so far!


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## Cellador (Aug 6, 2018)

Hope it's ok, but I now have a question about BCN VS for those that have used it. Do you reduce any part of your recipe to account for the VS amount? 
I used it last night for my first actual batch of soap. It volcanoed even though I put it in the freezer about 10 minutes after getting it in the mold. What poured out of the soap was a white, gel-like substance.  Soap is not zapping, but I had to throw it out because it was covered in slime. Do you think this was the VS?


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## amd (Aug 6, 2018)

I have used it since April/May (maybe even since March?) and make no adjustments to my recipe. I used it in my 1% stearic acid recipe, which by itself heats up to completely gel without additional insulation and had no overheating issues (cracking or volcano). I'm inclined to think your issue is either the FO that you used caused it to heat up, or something else in the recipe caused it to heat up.

Side note: I have only had one soap so far that the stabilizer did not work for, BCN's Dragon Blood FO, that is already starting to turn brown.


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## Cellador (Aug 6, 2018)

Thanks for your feedback! It was a "heater" recipe, so I am not really surprised about the volcano itself....just wondering what separated and why only the gel/slime came out of the batch.


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## jcandleattic (Aug 6, 2018)

Cellador said:


> Hope it's ok, but I now have a question about BCN VS for those that have used it. Do you reduce any part of your recipe to account for the VS amount?
> I used it last night for my first actual batch of soap. It volcanoed even though I put it in the freezer about 10 minutes after getting it in the mold. What poured out of the soap was a white, gel-like substance.  Soap is not zapping, but I had to throw it out because it was covered in slime. Do you think this was the VS?


I've never adjusted my recipe, and don't find that the VS heats up my soap more than if it's not in there. I doubt this was the VS, but can't rule it out. You have never made soap before? Or never made soap with VS? If you have no baseline, it's hard to tell if it would have been the VS, or just your recipe in general.


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## IrishLass (Aug 6, 2018)

Like the others, I never adjust my recipe with the stabilizer either. For what it's worth, I add the stabilizer to my warmed/melted oils (instead of adding it to the actual FO),  just like jcandleattic taught me. I've never had any weird  problems with it in all the years I've used it.


IrishLass


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## Cellador (Aug 6, 2018)

jcandleattic said:


> I've never adjusted my recipe, and don't find that the VS heats up my soap more than if it's not in there. I doubt this was the VS, but can't rule it out. You have never made soap before? Or never made soap with VS? If you have no baseline, it's hard to tell if it would have been the VS, or just your recipe in general.


This is the first time I've made a batch of soap using the VS (I've been soaping for about 1.5 yrs). The only time I had used it previously was with the testers in the first post....
Speaking of those testers, a couple of them that included the VS (3 of 4) started seeping. I put a little pressure on them, and an oily substance oozed out...not lye heavy and is not happening with the non-VS testers.
With the testers, I mixed the VS with the FO, but with the batch last night I mixed the VS with the oils before adding the lye solution.
Curious as to why this is happening to me....


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## jcandleattic (Aug 7, 2018)

Cellador said:


> This is the first time I've made a batch of soap using the VS (I've been soaping for about 1.5 yrs). The only time I had used it previously was with the testers in the first post....
> Speaking of those testers, a couple of them that included the VS (3 of 4) started seeping. I put a little pressure on them, and an oily substance oozed out...not lye heavy and is not happening with the non-VS testers.
> With the testers, I mixed the VS with the FO, but with the batch last night I mixed the VS with the oils before adding the lye solution.
> Curious as to why this is happening to me....


I have no idea. I've been using BCN's VS going on at least 10 years now (probably longer) and have never experienced what you are describing.  I mix mine with my oils, and never have that happen unless my soaps overheat, which is never a cause of the VS.


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## Cellador (Aug 7, 2018)

Thanks all- I'll keep experimenting. I wonder if I am using too much (1:1, VS to FO) or if it's affected by humidity (I live in the deep South).


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## shunt2011 (Aug 7, 2018)

I've not experienced that affect with using it either.  I don't use 1:1 though.  I probably do 1:2.


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## amd (Aug 7, 2018)

I have a thought that some FO's (or FO company formulations) don't play well with VS. I made soap with CC Nag Champa, which I have used before with no problems, and used CC stabilizer for CP in that batch. It oozes brown liquid even 6 months after cure. I haven't tried the Nag Champa with BCN VS yet to see if it was the crafters choice stabilizer that wasn't any good (my soaps still turned brown, possibly faster than when I don't use a stabilizer). Your comment about oozing sounds like what is happening with my Nag Champa bars, so I wonder if it is something in the FO itself that does not play well with the stabilizer, regardless of which stabilizer you use. I'm going to add a quick 4 bar test batch of Nag Champa with BCN stabilizer to my to do list tonight. I should know by weekend if I'm having the same result. If I do, then I guess it would be safe to say that VS doesn't work with all FO's - although it might work with the same/similar fragrance from another company.

I'm still trying to decide what to do with my oozing Nag Champa bars. 



shunt2011 said:


> I've not experienced that affect with using it either.  I don't use 1:1 though.  I probably do 1:2.



@shunt2011 can you clarify the ratio? FO to stabilizer or stabilizer to FO? (Sorry, don't mean to be specific but it would help troubleshooting a lot.) I believe that BCN recommends equal amounts of each.


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## shunt2011 (Aug 7, 2018)

amd said:


> I have a thought that some FO's (or FO company formulations) don't play well with VS. I made soap with CC Nag Champa, which I have used before with no problems, and used CC stabilizer for CP in that batch. It oozes brown liquid even 6 months after cure. I haven't tried the Nag Champa with BCN VS yet to see if it was the crafters choice stabilizer that wasn't any good (my soaps still turned brown, possibly faster than when I don't use a stabilizer). Your comment about oozing sounds like what is happening with my Nag Champa bars, so I wonder if it is something in the FO itself that does not play well with the stabilizer, regardless of which stabilizer you use. I'm going to add a quick 4 bar test batch of Nag Champa with BCN stabilizer to my to do list tonight. I should know by weekend if I'm having the same result. If I do, then I guess it would be safe to say that VS doesn't work with all FO's - although it might work with the same/similar fragrance from another company.
> 
> I'm still trying to decide what to do with my oozing Nag Champa bars.
> 
> ...


I guess I should have been clearer......sorry.   I use half the amount of stabilizer to FO.  If I use 3 oz of FO, I use 1.5 oz of stabilizer.   I'm still pretty much testing it as just started using it earlier this year by jcandleattic recommendation on another forum. So far so good.


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## jcandleattic (Aug 7, 2018)

amd said:


> I have a thought that some FO's (or FO company formulations) don't play well with VS. I made soap with CC Nag Champa, which I have used before with no problems, and used CC stabilizer for CP in that batch. It oozes brown liquid even 6 months after cure. I haven't tried the Nag Champa with BCN VS yet to see if it was the crafters choice stabilizer that wasn't any good (my soaps still turned brown, possibly faster than when I don't use a stabilizer). Your comment about oozing sounds like what is happening with my Nag Champa bars, so I wonder if it is something in the FO itself that does not play well with the stabilizer, regardless of which stabilizer you use. I'm going to add a quick 4 bar test batch of Nag Champa with BCN stabilizer to my to do list tonight. I should know by weekend if I'm having the same result. If I do, then I guess it would be safe to say that VS doesn't work with all FO's - although it might work with the same/similar fragrance from another company.
> 
> I'm still trying to decide what to do with my oozing Nag Champa bars.
> 
> @shunt2011 can you clarify the ratio? FO to stabilizer or stabilizer to FO? (Sorry, don't mean to be specific but it would help troubleshooting a lot.) I believe that BCN recommends equal amounts of each.



I'm not sure what is going on. I use VS in every single batch I make regardless of vanilla content at a ratio of 1:1 or even more VS to FO ratio if the vanilla content is unusually high. Never have I ever had oozing or unstable bars. However, that is not to say that VS does well with all FO's as obviously I have not tried them all (even though it does feel that way after doing this for 15+ years! LOL) But with the many hundreds I have used with VS, this oozing has never happened to me. If it helps though, I do live in a very dry climate, where the average % of humidity on any given day doesn't usually exceed 18%. That might be part of it. ?? I just don't now. 

I will say though that I have tried almost every other VS on the market and none compare (IMO) to BCN's. Almost every single other VS would not stop/delay/prevent - whatever, AT ALL the discoloration of a vanilla soap. They all turned by the end of, or very shortly after, the full cure. That has not been my experience with BCN's. 

I really wish I could be of better help with all of y'all that are having problems with your VS soaps.


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## Cellador (Aug 7, 2018)

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one to experience the oozing. I am also wondering if there is another FO ingredient that doesn't play well with the VS. I have only tried the VS with WSP FOs.
I might also do another test batch to see how the amount of VS used might affect the color and ooze factor. Lol


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## jcandleattic (Aug 7, 2018)

Cellador said:


> I am also wondering if there is another FO ingredient that doesn't play well with the VS. I have only tried the VS with WSP FOs.


This very well may be, as I have only used 1 WSP FO ever, and didn't like the scent, and really don't buy from them at all. (told you I haven't tried all the available FO's out there!! HA) 
Even with their so-called "free" shipping, I can get better deals elsewhere, overall.


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## amd (Aug 7, 2018)

@Cellador I think we might be onto something with WSP (crafters choice) FO's not playing well with stabilizers. I almost used stabilizer in my cherry almond soap (7% vanillan) but decided to continue to embrace the brown. Now I'm glad I didn't as the FO is also crafters choice. I have BCN's Nag Champa FO... I think... I know it was on my wishlist and I have around 20 FO samples from them on hand... if so I might do a side by test batch of each FO with the stabilizer. I think I will stick with BCN's recommended 1:1 ratio for both tests.


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## Cellador (Aug 19, 2018)

So, I did another batch of test soaps, and I wanted to report back since a couple of us have had mixed results with the VS.
 I did 4 test bars with different levels of VS and a variety of FO suppliers.

-Celtic Moonspice (Rustic Escentuals, 8.7% vanillin)- used a 1:1 ratio of VS to FO. Results: VS did not work. Soap is discoloring after 1 week of cure. No softness or oily weeping.

-Cedar & Saffron (Brambleberry, 3% vanillin)- used a fourth of VS to FO amount . Results: Soap is lighter than soap without the VS, but not as light as other soap results . No softness or oily weeping.

-Rich Dark Chocolate (Brambleberry, 15.9% vanillin)- used a 1:1 ratio of VS to FO. Results: Did not discolor, a little soft but no obvious weeping or oily oozing.

-Vanilla Fig (WSP, 8.6% vanillin)- used half of amount of VS to FO. Results: Did reduce some of the discoloration, but color is still patchy and orange after 1 week of cure time . No softness or oily weeping.

-Vanilla Bourbon(WSP, 4% vanillin)- used one fourth the amount of VS to FO amount. This FO was used 1:1 in original test batch and was one of the most oily, oozing samples. Results: Did slightly reduce discoloration, but not as much as before. The soap is a little soft but does not weep or ooze as much as original sample.

So, my conclusion right now is that, if I really plan on using a particular color scheme with a discoloring FO, I need to test the specific FO and VS in advance. Results can vary based on FO supplier and amount of VS used.  It does seem that reducing the VS helps to prevent the weeping, oily issue I was experiencing, but the soap is still not as bright as using the 1:1 ratio.


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## jcandleattic (Aug 19, 2018)

Cellador said:


> Celtic Moonspice (Rustic Escentuals, 8.7% vanillin)- used a 1:1 ratio of VS to FO. Results: VS did not work. Soap is discoloring after 1 week of cure. No softness or oily weeping.


Hmm, that's so weird. I wonder if you got a bad batch of VS?  I have used VS with Celtic Moonspice many times, and it doesn't start to discolor until right around the 9 month mark, and even then it's very slight and only around the edges.


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## Cellador (Aug 20, 2018)

jcandleattic said:


> Hmm, that's so weird. I wonder if you got a bad batch of VS?  I have used VS with Celtic Moonspice many times, and it doesn't start to discolor until right around the 9 month mark, and even then it's very slight and only around the edges.


Hmm, I'm not sure...it worked remarkably well for the chocolate scent from Brambleberry. 
I did notice that the Moonspice FO/VS mix kinda solidified before I got it into the soap batter. Maybe it wasn't mixed well enough? It was a sample batch, so I was using cups and spoons to mix.


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## jcandleattic (Aug 20, 2018)

Do you mix the VS with your FO? Just curious. I know that's what the instructions say to do, but everytime I ever did that the fo/vs mix would turn into a gel like substance, so after about 3 times of that, I decided to add it directly to the oils. Have never had a problem doing that. 
I'm not saying that's the problem, because I don't know, I've never experienced BCN's VS not working the way you have, so not sure. Might be something to think about though, maybe?


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## shunt2011 (Aug 20, 2018)

I do the same by adding the VS to my oils and stick blend then add my FO then my lye mixture.  The handful I've used it in are still going strong.  Pink Sugar (Peak), Vanilla Champagne (Nature's Garden), OMH (Southern Scentsations), Vanilla Bean Noel (WSP), Dragon's Blood (NG).   I don't use a lot of discoloring FO's.


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## Maria Morando (Aug 25, 2018)

I have tried vanilla stabilizer in my cold process recipes. I just don't like the way it processes with the soap. There is something about it that changes the hardness and quality of the soap. I have had terriible luck with it in goat milk soap. I noticed that it doesn't saponify properly. Now I often use a regular vanilla fragrance that I like and I add Non-discoloring vanilla fragrance to it. The non discoloring vanilla by itself doesn't smell all that great, but in cold process soap, it seems to smell better after processing. I usually add about 1/4 non discoloring to my favorite vanilla fragrance oil and it helps with the texture and processing of goat milk soap and water based soap. It also has an effect on the soap not discoloring so much. It smells good too when you mix the two.


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## earlene (Sep 14, 2020)

I finally realized that the shipping option of Spee-Dee Delivery is an affordable option for the Bitter Creek North Vanilla Stablilizer!  I kept postponing ordering it because for some reason, I did not see that option and the cost of UPS was just so high, I thought it was not worth the expense of shipping.

So today I finally submitted an order and when it arrives, I plan to do a trial with DB to see if it really is as remarkable as everyone says. I trust folks here, so I have high expectations for it.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 15, 2020)

earlene said:


> I finally realized that the shipping option of Spee-Dee Delivery is an affordable option for the Bitter Creek North Vanilla Stablilizer!  I kept postponing ordering it because for some reason, I did not see that option and the cost of UPS was just so high, I thought it was not worth the expense of shipping.
> 
> So today I finally submitted an order and when it arrives, I plan to do a trial with DB to see if it really is as remarkable as everyone says. I trust folks here, so I have high expectations for it.


I think you'll be pleased with it.  My Vanilla Champagne I made in 2018 is just now starting to turn tannish.


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## earlene (Sep 22, 2020)

My order was delivered around 4 pm yesterday, but I did not see it on my doorstep until 15 hours later (this morning) because BCN does not send a confirmation of shipment, nor a tracking number.  How annoying.  I sent a request for that information on Sept 18, but they never responded.   _ETA (they say I responded to a DoNotReply email message, so maybe that's why.)_

Well, at least it's here.  So if anyone does order, look for it every day, and if you don't want it sitting out overnight on your doorstep, check your porch before you go to bed each night.  

So from date of order to deliver was 7 days, not bad (except for the lack of communication.)

_Update:_ I received emails from BCN with apologies for not supplying the tracking number, although, they say that Spee-Dee sends the tracking number, which it didn't. So far I have not received a response from Spee-Dee, whom I also messaged with a complaint.  But at least BCN did follow-up on the complaint promptly.


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