# Dear Shea Butter: What did I do to deserve this?



## soapythekid (Mar 31, 2020)

Hi all, I'm wondering if I can get some advice. I've been soaping for about 2 years and it's been a long time since I had a batch run wild on me without knowing what I did wrong. About 1 year ago, I made a batch of shea butter soap that worked wonderfully. My friends have been begging for more. So I made it again today, the only difference being that I doubled the size of the batch. I ran it through soap calculator, melted my oils, made my lye solution and all was going well until that fateful moment I mixed. The oils and solution didn't seem to mix at all and when they finally did, it turned immediately into nasty white chunks. It didn't trace as much as it just sort of congealed. I'm not sure what went wrong. 

The ONLY thing that I did differently was I adding 2 teaspoons of sugar to my lye solution. But I can't see how that would affect anything. 

Anybody seen this before? Can anyone tell me what happened?


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## KiwiMoose (Mar 31, 2020)

Did you use the same fragrance as last time?
I've poured soap that looked like that, but it came out alright.


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## soapythekid (Mar 31, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> Did you use the same fragrance as last time?
> I've poured soap that looked like that, but it came out alright.



Hi KiwiMoose! No, I didn't even get to the fragrance or additives. When I saw this, I decided not to waste any additives on it. When you did yours, did you know what the chunks were? Is it just un-saponified oils?


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## atiz (Mar 31, 2020)

It may come out all right. What temperature were you soaping at? Maybe the shea butter started to re-solidify?


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## soapythekid (Mar 31, 2020)

atiz said:


> It may come out all right. What temperature were you soaping at? Maybe the shea butter started to re-solidify?



Hello atiz! My lye solution was about 122 degrees and my oils were around 130 degrees. Everything was liquid until the mix. Then... boom! It was chunks.


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## KiwiMoose (Mar 31, 2020)

atiz said:


> It may come out all right. What temperature were you soaping at? Maybe the shea butter started to re-solidify?


That was my thought too Atiz - but it looks like 'the kid' was soaping hot enough.  
As I say - the exact same thing happened to me very recently and it came through the cure just fine - but with a ton of glycerin rivers. Shea butter is known to move quickly, so I guess it might just be something different between the temp or environment this time which caused your bad luck?
Here's a pic of mine once gelled and cut:


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## soapythekid (Mar 31, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> That was my thought too Atiz - but it looks like 'the kid' was soaping hot enough.
> As I say - the exact same thing happened to me very recently and it came through the cure just fine - but with a ton of glycerin rivers. Shea butter is known to move quickly, so I guess it might just be something different between the temp or environment this time which caused your bad luck?
> Here's a pic of mine once gelled and cut: View attachment 44872



Wow... looks cool! Well, I'll report back after a day or so when I cut it up and let you know. Thank you for your feedback


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## DeeAnna (Mar 31, 2020)

_"...The ONLY thing that I did differently was I adding 2 teaspoons of sugar to my lye solution..."_

Hmmm. Not sure about this one, but a possibility comes to mind --

Did you add the sugar to the water _before _adding NaOH? Or did you add it to the lye solution? In other words, did you add the sugar _after _adding the NaOH?


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## atiz (Mar 31, 2020)

How much Shea butter were you using? 
I tend to use it between 5-10%, and have never had this happen.... Could it be perhaps that the oils were not mixed well enough, and then they saponified at different speed? Not sure that can happen at all, just thinking out loud.
But maybe @DeeAnna is right about the sugar.

@KiwiMoose, that soap looks great, I think the glycerin rivers just make it more interesting.


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## dibbles (Mar 31, 2020)

My first thought was the same as @DeeAnna - I did that exactly once and learned my lesson.


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## soapythekid (Mar 31, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...The ONLY thing that I did differently was I adding 2 teaspoons of sugar to my lye solution..."_
> 
> Hmmm. Not sure about this one, but a possibility comes to mind --
> 
> Did you add the sugar to the water _before _adding NaOH? Or did you add it to the lye solution? In other words, did you add the sugar _after _adding the NaOH?



Hi DeeAnna! I added the sugar before the NaOH. I mixed it thoroughly for quite a while before adding the NaOH. However, one thing that was slightly different was that the lye solution was ever so slightly slightly slightly orangish... which I'm guessing would be a bit of caramelization...? But again that wouldn't cause such a reaction would it? Or did I somehow "burn up" some of my lye and end up making a waaaay superfatted batch?



atiz said:


> How much Shea butter were you using?
> I tend to use it between 5-10%, and have never had this happen.... Could it be perhaps that the oils were not mixed well enough, and then they saponified at different speed? Not sure that can happen at all, just thinking out loud.
> But maybe @DeeAnna is right about the sugar.
> 
> @KiwiMoose, that soap looks great, I think the glycerin rivers just make it more interesting.



This was a primarily shea butter recipe. I used 40% shea butter. But I've done this recipe before and didn't have this result... The oils were plenty mixed, up to 150-160 and then I slowly stirred as I let them cool down to 130ish to mix. 

I agree with you about glycerin rivers. I want glycerin rivers!


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## cmzaha (Mar 31, 2020)

You were soaping pretty hot. Even my recipe with 58% Shea butter I do not soap that hot. I find too hot speeds things up to much. I never go over 110ºF even with my high shea soap and room temp lye. I just stir until all heats up. Sugar has never caused me problems although I now use Sorbitol.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 31, 2020)

Okay, sugar before lye is good. That's the way to do it.

The only other thing I can think of is your fats might have had a higher % of free fatty acids than when you made this recipe previously. Fatty acids react with the lye almost immediately, but the fats react much more slowly. The soap can get little lumps something like yours. It's all soap, just not quite what you expected. The higher temps you're using would accelerate the reaction of the free fatty acids with the lye.


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## Mobjack Bay (Mar 31, 2020)

Did you use the same kind of shea butter both times?  Refined shea behaves well for me, but the same recipe will speed up considerably if I use unrefined shea.  I decided the acceleration might be due to the relatively high concentration of unsaponifiables in unrefined shea because I also experience acceleration when I use orange wax, which is high in unsaponifiables.  I’ve only seen lumpiness like yours one time and, in that case, I linked it to a fragrance oil.


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## BattleGnome (Mar 31, 2020)

Did you add coconut oil? 

My favorite recipe uses equal amounts Shea and coconut. The combination gives me a non-neutonian-like batter. It looks almost identical to your pictures as it settles out but a few good stirs with a spatula and I can get it fluid again... or at least fluid enough for colorants (I add fragrance to my oils). Separately, neither Shea or coconut give me an issue, together they don’t play the way I’d like.


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## penelopejane (Mar 31, 2020)

I agree with cmzaha and think it has something to do with soaping temperatures.
I soap at 110*F and a lot of people consider that hot.  Your temps were much hotter than that and don't leave much room for error.

I SB my oils and make sure they are all clear and at temp before I add the lye mixture which is also at temp.  If your shea butter cooled a bit more than you thought before you added really hot lye those spots could easily have formed.  A bit of a difference in temps would also explain that it took a while for trace then bam the hot lye found the oils and saponification started.  (Non scientific explanation from a non scientist!! )

Sugar does speed trace and make soap saponify hotter.


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## soapythekid (Apr 1, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> You were soaping pretty hot. Even my recipe with 58% Shea butter I do not soap that hot. I find too hot speeds things up to much. I never go over 110ºF even with my high shea soap and room temp lye. I just stir until all heats up. Sugar has never caused me problems although I now use Sorbitol.



Thank you for this. But now I'm really confused... I've read in lots of places that 120-130F is the ideal range for soaping... (source: Brambleberry, etc.) Is that incorrect? I soaped once around 90F as I was using goat's milk and that batch went all wrong, didn't go through gel phase etc and people told me I soaped too cold. Your thoughts?



DeeAnna said:


> Okay, sugar before lye is good. That's the way to do it.
> 
> The only other thing I can think of is your fats might have had a higher % of free fatty acids than when you made this recipe previously. Fatty acids react with the lye almost immediately, but the fats react much more slowly. The soap can get little lumps something like yours. It's all soap, just not quite what you expected. The higher temps you're using would accelerate the reaction of the free fatty acids with the lye.



This actually sounds like the closest answer so far... I've read that 120-130F is ideal for soaping. Am I wrong? What temps do you soap at?



Mobjack Bay said:


> Did you use the same kind of shea butter both times?  Refined shea behaves well for me, but the same recipe will speed up considerably if I use unrefined shea.  I decided the acceleration might be due to the relatively high concentration of unsaponifiables in unrefined shea because I also experience acceleration when I use orange wax, which is high in unsaponifiables.  I’ve only seen lumpiness like yours one time and, in that case, I linked it to a fragrance oil.



I did use the exact same shea butter and it's refined... but now you've put a new wrinkle in my brain: unsaponifiables in oils? Is that a thing? (I have SO much still to learn!) 



BattleGnome said:


> Did you add coconut oil?
> 
> My favorite recipe uses equal amounts Shea and coconut. The combination gives me a non-neutonian-like batter. It looks almost identical to your pictures as it settles out but a few good stirs with a spatula and I can get it fluid again... or at least fluid enough for colorants (I add fragrance to my oils). Separately, neither Shea or coconut give me an issue, together they don’t play the way I’d like.



No coconut in my recipe. It's shea butter, olive oil, rapeseed and a little cocoa butter and castor oil. (You made me look up the term "non-newtonian" - thank you!) 



penelopejane said:


> I agree with cmzaha and think it has something to do with soaping temperatures.
> I soap at 110*F and a lot of people consider that hot.  Your temps were much hotter than that and don't leave much room for error.
> 
> I SB my oils and make sure they are all clear and at temp before I add the lye mixture which is also at temp.  If your shea butter cooled a bit more than you thought before you added really hot lye those spots could easily have formed.  A bit of a difference in temps would also explain that it took a while for trace then bam the hot lye found the oils and saponification started.  (Non scientific explanation from a non scientist!! )
> ...



Same reply as I put for cmzaha: Thank you but now I'm really confused... I've read in lots of places that 120-130F is the ideal range for soaping... (source: Brambleberry, etc.) Is that incorrect? I soaped once around 90F as I was using goat's milk and that batch went all wrong, didn't go through gel phase etc and people told me I soaped too cold. Your thoughts? What temps do you soap at?

My shea butter and oils were actually hotter than my lye... 130ish oils and 120ish lye solution... but I do like your non-scientific explanation. It seemed like the lye hit the oils and made a thick layer in the bottom of the pot instantly. As I stirred I was kicking up this muck and trying to blend it with the top layer of oils. 

If I add sugar to my lye solution then, I should soap at lower temps to compensate..?


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## Obsidian (Apr 1, 2020)

soapythekid said:


> This actually sounds like the closest answer so far... I've read that 120-130F is ideal for soaping. Am I wrong? What temps do you soap at?



That is excessive. I soap around 100 unless I want my normally slow moving recipe to trace quicker or if I'm using something like beeswax that has a high melting point.

I don't feel 90 is too cool unless you are using fats with a higher melting point. Soaping cool can slow gel or cause false trace if its too cool.

Honestly, I don't take temps anymore. I melt my oils until just clear and let the lye cool down until the container is comfortable to the touch.


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## soapythekid (Apr 1, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> That is excessive. I soap around 100 unless I want my normally slow moving recipe to trace quicker or if I'm using something like beeswax that has a high melting point.
> 
> I don't feel 90 is too cool unless you are using fats with a higher melting point. Soaping cool can slow gel or cause false trace if its too cool.
> 
> Honestly, I don't take temps anymore. I melt my oils until just clear and let the lye cool down until the container is comfortable to the touch.




Soaping around 100, eh? Okay, I'll try that next time. I've been soaping a little while but I still have lots to learn so I take copious notes and take temps on everything constantly.  Thank you for the info!


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## cmzaha (Apr 1, 2020)

I did forget to mention I only use raw shea butter I purchase in bulk. I find the temps I gave you the sweet spot when working with a high percentage of shea. As I mentioned my recipe is actually higher than yours and not refined, so my shea is going to possibly have more variables. 

Please keep in mind Brambleberry is a supplier first a soapmaker second that wants to sell supplies. I take very little that she says seriously.


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## dibbles (Apr 1, 2020)

I normally soap between 90-100. 110 also seems to be a good temp that a lot of people aim for. I did - and will again - soap warmer when I used beeswax.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 1, 2020)

Most of the time, the temp of my soap batter is initially in the range of 95 to 105 F. I don't use shea so YMMV from mine since you're using so much shea.

I use a lot of lard in my recipes. I will melt my lard and other solid fats until they are warm enough to be completely melted and transparent. I'll add room temperature liquid fats after the solid fats are fully melted. And my lye solutions and other water-based liquids are also at room temp. These cooler liquids help to cool the overall mixture a bit.

In the 95-105 range, I don't get false trace and I have only a few stearic spots in the finished soap. I wouldn't soap any cooler to minimize both of these issues.

I think @Mobjack Bay has experimented with the temps needed to fully melt fats to avoid stearic spots and other issues that come from not fully melting the solid fats. Maybe MB will chime in here and provide some sage advice?

edit: I'm another one who doesn't think Brambleberry always has it right. Their designs and ideas can be fun, but they've presented some bad chemistry info in the past. It makes me skeptical of anything they say that's on a science vein.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 1, 2020)

I soap around 40 - 45 celsius. I use soy wax in my recipes and it does have a higher melting point so after many batches I decided it was best kept at that temperature.  However, I only recently discovered that was the temperature I was using - my first year of soaping was done entirely by touch ( ie if the oils and lye solution were slightly warm but not hot when touching the container).  My step-son has a temperature gauge so I recently started using that purely out of interest to see exactly what 'warm to the touch' actually measured in degrees.


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## soapythekid (Apr 1, 2020)

Thank you all, this is enormously helpful! I will start experimenting with soaping at lower temperatures.


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## szaza (Apr 1, 2020)

soapythekid said:


> I did use the exact same shea butter and it's refined...


Did you use exactly the same batch of shea butter as you used one year ago or did you order new? I ask because old fats may start to break down creating free fatty acids which like @DeeAnna said will saponify quicker. I'm thinking that might be the difference that made it saponify so much quicker this time, with everything else being the same. (How were your temperatures last time?)


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## IrishLass (Apr 1, 2020)

My normal soaping temps are between 110 - 120F, and I've even soaped at 160F once (not intentionally). The only time I get those kind of lumps is when I soap below 110F with a goodly amount of hydrogentated palm kernel oil flakes along with either kokum butter or mango butter in the same formula......or with certain ornery FOs.  I could be wrong, but I'm leaning heavily towards the free fatty acids theory.


IrishLass


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## Mobjack Bay (Apr 1, 2020)

I have been able to mostly avoid stearic spots in my soap by melting my hard fats until they are crystal clear and by adjusting my working temperature to match the hard fat I’m using (see below).  I’ve gone so far as to check the clarity of my melted fats with a magnifying lens.  The sweet spot is usually around 135 and 145 F for lard, tallow, palm and Shea. Below that I can sometimes see little crystals or flakes floating in the oil through a magnifying lens even if the fats look clear to my eye.  Soy wax (GW 415) is the exception.  It melts crystal clear at right around 125 F.

I also adjust my soaping temperature by hard fat type.  The starting batter temperatures I aim for are as follows: lard - 85 to 95 F; palm, Shea, or tallow/lard blend - 105 to 115 F; and soy wax - 120 to 125 F.  I can get away with a lower starting temperature if I’m adding sugar or another additive that causes heating, if the batch size is big (> 2 lbs oil), or if I take the batter to a good solid trace (past light, but not medium).  For smaller batches and slab molds, I need to stay on the warmer side of a range. For emulsion stage pours, I also need to stay on the warmer side of the range. I can start at a lower temperature if my recipe has a high percentage of soft oils.  This is all for lye concentrations in the range of 33% to 40%. I MB my lye, so I SB the liquid into the oils first (it’s temp adjusted to be close to oil temp) and then pour my RT lye in slowly.


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## penelopejane (Apr 1, 2020)

soapythekid said:


> Thank you for this. But now I'm really confused... I've read in lots of places that 120-130F is the ideal range for soaping... (source: Brambleberry, etc.) Is that incorrect? I soaped once around 90F as I was using goat's milk and that batch went all wrong, didn't go through gel phase etc and people told me I soaped too cold. Your thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn’t go by brambleberry advice. 
I make a lot of soap with Shea butter and I soap at 110* F. I don’t like stearic spots or swirls.


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## TheGecko (Apr 2, 2020)

soapythekid said:


> Hi all, I'm wondering if I can get some advice. I've been soaping for about 2 years and it's been a long time since I had a batch run wild on me without knowing what I did wrong. About 1 year ago, I made a batch of shea butter soap that worked wonderfully. My friends have been begging for more. So I made it again today, the only difference being that I doubled the size of the batch. I ran it through soap calculator, melted my oils, made my lye solution and all was going well until that fateful moment I mixed. The oils and solution didn't seem to mix at all and when they finally did, it turned immediately into nasty white chunks. It didn't trace as much as it just sort of congealed. I'm not sure what went wrong.
> 
> The ONLY thing that I did differently was I adding 2 teaspoons of sugar to my lye solution. But I can't see how that would affect anything.
> 
> Anybody seen this before? Can anyone tell me what happened?



Different brand or supplier of your butter?  I have gotten Shea Butter from a few different sources based on how much I am ordering from that supplier...it’s not the same from supplier to supplier.


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## soapythekid (Apr 2, 2020)

@szaza There might be something to that. It's the same batch of shea. I bought it in bulk over a year ago.
@IrishLass Thank you, yes fatty acids and high temps seem to be the culprit...
@Mobjack Bay This is beautiful info! I'm writing all your words down, thank you!
@penelopejane The consensus seems to be Brambleberry = BAD  They helped me a lot in my starter days learning soap but I guess it's time to let them go 
@TheGecko Same supplier, same batch actually. It might have more to do with fatty acid breakdown as mentioned by szaza...


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