# So frustrating, I've noticed a horrible trend.



## tangled_panda (Oct 31, 2013)

Sorry this is kind of a vent thread, about an issue that I find really annoying.

It seems like every show we go to there is someone selling M&P soaps as CP/HP for 2 dollars a bar.  Firstly how can anyone make a profit off of a 4oz bar selling them for 2 dollars (even if it is M&P)!  Secondly I hate it when people try to market their M&P as CP/HP soaps.  The general consumer doesn't know the difference, and they don't put the ingredients on the packaging - if there is any!

It's not even like it is nice M&P, I know you can do beautiful things with M&P (not trying to dis M&P soapers), but the soaps that I'm seeing are sweaty or falling apart, and I just don't see how it sells.

I just find it so frustrating.  We make a quality product, and we do get repeat customers who know that, but when it is a new show and we don't have a following 2 dollars is hard to beat.  Our bars are set at 4.75 or 3/12.00, which I believe is in the average price range for quality soap.

Sorry for venting, but I just find this so annoying, and it just started happening a lot in my area this past year or two.


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## lizflowers42 (Oct 31, 2013)

They will get what they pay for!


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## pamielynn (Oct 31, 2013)

I agree - it is frustrating. Sort of feels like they're "cheating" somehow. I just met one here locally who spent a good chunk of change to be in a festival in town and she will be at the next show I go to. Her MP is not decorative at all - just made into bars, no colorants, all FOs and labeled "organic, natural, handmade". Her booth design is nice and clean, and her soap is much less expensive than mine. Can't do much about it except educate the customers who stop at MY booth - but it does get under my skin sometimes, too.


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## ourwolfden (Oct 31, 2013)

What if you made some sort of booklet that talked about your booth and the ingredients you like to use?  So if it was a full size piece of paper folded in thirds you would have front and back where you could but your contact info, how to buy from you, what your soap/your company is all about.  You talked about her using only FO so you could do a little segment on what is an EO.  Then spatter pictures of your soap and you making your soap... stick blenders are cool (anyone who reads that in the right voice gets extra credit).  I would do anything to come out and bash her or her products but do everything to make sure people know you have a superior product.  Plus, if the cover has lots of pretty pictures people are going to pick it up.


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## pamielynn (Oct 31, 2013)

ourwolfden said:


> What if you made some sort of booklet that talked about your booth and the ingredients you like to use?  So if it was a full size piece of paper folded in thirds you would have front and back where you could but your contact info, how to buy from you, what your soap/your company is all about.  You talked about her using only FO so you could do a little segment on what is an EO.  Then spatter pictures of your soap and you making your soap... stick blenders are cool (anyone who reads that in the right voice gets extra credit).  I would do anything to come out and bash her or her products but do everything to make sure people know you have a superior product.  Plus, if the cover has lots of pretty pictures people are going to pick it up.



I have one of those - not bashing the other types of soaps or methods, just informative. Plus lots of sampling!


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## Renew Soaps (Oct 31, 2013)

A little patience and faith in people.  A low quality product is exactly that and it won't take long for the customers to realize that.
  The booklet idea is a good one.  Kudos for that.  I think I will try something similar.  
 Anything you do to educate and raise awareness will pay you back in the long run.  


Responsibly crafted


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## girlishcharm2004 (Oct 31, 2013)

tangled_panda said:


> Our bars are set at 4.75 or 3/12.00, which I believe is in the average price range for quality soap.



How do _you _get your prices so low!?  

I see other people make soap and sell it for around that price (and even cheaper, like what you saw with the "Melt and Pour" soapers).  First, I know some of my ingredients are a little more expensive.  Second, I also know I live in an expensive area (Bay Area -- $1,500/mo for a studio).  But, I also wonder if people are not including or are underpricing expenses, labor, and market value (i.e. selling at wholesale price). 

Dr. Bronner's sells an organic 5oz bar of soap for $4.50 retail price.  How do you compete with factory production?  On Etsy, I'm one of the more expensive sellers.  At local farmer's markets, I'm right on par.  I would like to have more avenues of selling than just once or twice a week during good weather. Oh, the frustration... I do see what you mean about other sellers, though.


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## Renew Soaps (Oct 31, 2013)

If you establish yourself as a producer of quality products people will support local talent over bulk corporate conglomerates.  They will pay the higher price because they know it supports the local economy.
At least that has been my experience. A little faith and perseverance will pay dividends.
  I don't have an etsy shop our any online stores.  (As of yet) but I have a loyal group of customers that grows by word of mouth because of the quality of the products that I make.  In my town zum bar is available at about every outlet you can think of.  It is good soap and can be bought for a decent price but it comes from another state.  The people that buy my soap are conscious about supporting the local crafters.  
  Just do what you do and don't quit you will secure a bigger and bigger share of the market in your area.

Responsibly crafted


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## Bann51 (Oct 31, 2013)

I had that experience this summer. Went to a large event held in New York. The thing that struck me the most is that people were selling M&P for very high prices. Some of the packaging was not very good and the soaps did not look attractive and forget it, there were no ingredients listed.  One lady that was selling body butter ran up to me and smeared the body butter on my arm. I was outraged. She didn't even ask me if I would like to try it! It felt like someone had smeared petroleum jelly on me. There will always people underselling you. Have faith you've made a good product and people will notice and keep coming back.


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## Renew Soaps (Oct 31, 2013)

Bann51 said:


> I had that experience this summer. Went to a large event held in New York. The thing that struck me the most is that people were selling M&P for very high prices. Some of the packaging was not very good and the soaps did not look attractive and forget it, there were no ingredients listed.  One lady that was selling body butter ran up to me and smeared the body butter on my arm. I was outraged. She didn't even ask me if I would like to try it! It felt like someone had smeared petroleum jelly on me. There will always people underselling you. Have faith you've made a good product and people will notice and keep coming back.



Well said

Responsibly crafted


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## tangled_panda (Nov 1, 2013)

girlishcharm2004 said:


> How do _you _get your prices so low!?



We live in a kind of rural area in Kentucky.  Our prices can't get much higher. Our basic recipe doesn't use expensive oils, just Olive, Coconut, Castor and Palm.  That really helps with keeping the price down. We also use FO.  We would love to use all organic and EO, but it would not sell here for the price we would need to just get our money back.


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## soap_rat (Nov 1, 2013)

Aargh, I have been imaging exactly this scenario as I plan to do my first craft fair.  I'm glad I don't have to submit recipes and samples and whatnot like the Canadian and European soapers, but maybe it would be worth it if it would shut down the liars and fakers.

I know some soapers do CP and M&P, maybe offering our OWN cheap alternative (and of course done better!) at least keeps people buying at our booth?  (I also have nightmares about running out of stock with no time to make and cure soap, so I wonder if M&P fills that gap as well but that's not the topic here)

Yes, how to word things to educate the consumer about what the other guy is doing differently, without pointing fingers.  I'll come back if I find the answer.


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## tangled_panda (Nov 1, 2013)

soap_rat said:


> I know some soapers do CP and M&P, maybe offering our OWN cheap alternative (and of course done better!) at least keeps people buying at our booth?  (I also have nightmares about running out of stock with no time to make and cure soap, so I wonder if M&P fills that gap as well but that's not the topic here)



We use to do M&P but our customers didn't like that it wasn't 'natural', so it ended up not selling and we discontinued it.  We labeled everything and marketed it as Glycerin Soap.

We might have to bring it back for a season to see if it changed.  It will at least work to show the difference in the texture and look of the two.


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## dagmar88 (Nov 1, 2013)

girlishcharm2004 said:


> How do _you _get your prices so low!?
> 
> I see other people make soap and sell it for around that price (and even cheaper



Buying in bulk. A lot of soapers here are able to keep their costs around $1 per bar.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=17735

Retail prices are the costs per bar x 4. That said, I'd always try to price competitively. 
Handmade soap is seen as a luxury and is very much about perception. People are looking for a good deal, but they also feel that the higher the price, the higher the quality must be.
Though I understand those soapmakers TS is talking about are very annoying, I just don't think they're fishing in the same pond.
You don't go to ***mart if you're looking for quality.


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## pamielynn (Nov 1, 2013)

dagmar88 said:


> Buying in bulk. A lot of soapers here are able to keep their costs around $1 per bar.
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=17735
> 
> ...



What bugs me is that the MPers around here price their soaps at what I price my soap at: $6 a bar. Now, I'm not arguing that MP doesn't have it's place - it does - but when you just pour into a log,throw a sh*t-ton of FO in it and call it "organic, natural and handcrafted" is when I go off. I think for $6 a bar, it should have some effort behind it.

ETA: that I've not come across one yet that submits sales tax, either. I know, because I organize a lot of shows here AND I've been known to ask when I go to other shows


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## girlishcharm2004 (Nov 1, 2013)

tangled_panda said:


> We live in a kind of rural area in Kentucky.  Our prices can't get much higher. Our basic recipe doesn't use expensive oils, just Olive, Coconut, Castor and Palm.  That really helps with keeping the price down. We also use FO.  We would love to use all organic and EO, but it would not sell here for the price we would need to just get our money back.



Ah, okay.  That makes sense.  I make all organic soaps (even organic essential oils).  I did the "cost/bar x 4" method of pricing and it came out to the same price that I had figured -- $8-$9/bar.  I guess I need to focus on local selling right now.  Thank-you for all your help!


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## paillo (Nov 3, 2013)

pamielynn said:


> What bugs me is that the MPers around here price their soaps at what I price my soap at: $6 a bar. Now, I'm not arguing that MP doesn't have it's place - it does - but when you just pour into a log,throw a sh*t-ton of FO in it and call it "organic, natural and handcrafted" is when I go off. I think for $6 a bar, it should have some effort behind it.
> 
> ETA: that I've not come across one yet that submits sales tax, either. I know, because I organize a lot of shows here AND I've been known to ask when I go to other shows



Honestly, if it's dishonest, I would report it to the show organizer. Most I've dealt with are very approachable and appreciate honest feedback and information. There is no excuse for blatant dishonesty in a seller. They should not be allowed back.


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## cmzaha (Nov 5, 2013)

Bann51 said:


> I had that experience this summer. Went to a large event held in New York. The thing that struck me the most is that people were selling M&P for very high prices. Some of the packaging was not very good and the soaps did not look attractive and forget it, there were no ingredients listed. One lady that was selling body butter ran up to me and smeared the body butter on my arm. I was outraged. She didn't even ask me if I would like to try it! It felt like someone had smeared petroleum jelly on me. There will always people underselling you. Have faith you've made a good product and people will notice and keep coming back.


 
Really ticks me off when I see someone grabbing an arm and start smearing on their product. I was accross from a vendor selling her cure all olive oil. When someone passed by she would grab them and rub her oil on them. Some are totally clueless to the effect this can have on a person that is deathly allergic.


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## GuarinoSoaps (Dec 12, 2013)

I personally would rather have a M&P seller use the term handcrafted vs. handmade. I was originally going to start my soap journey with melt and pour but my husband brought it up that it wasn't real soap making. I got a little defensive because I thought he was ****ting on my parade, but it helped me not to be scared of lye anymore for some reason. 

Next hurdle - I have a cousin who makes hot process soap. Even though I have been wanting to soap for the last 5 years, I know there's going to be talk between my auntie and my mom about me "stealing her thunder" eugh. I hate drama.


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## shunt2011 (Dec 12, 2013)

I call my CP Handcrafted Artisan Soap.


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## GuarinoSoaps (Dec 12, 2013)

and that is a personal preference you have the right to choose! I personally love the term artisan...sounds so artsy.


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## pamielynn (Dec 12, 2013)

I don't care what a soapmaker chooses to use as a descriptor: handcrafted, handmade, etc. I do mind when someone tries to pass off a premade base as handmade soap. "Natural" "Organic" "Not made with that nasty, caustic, chew through the stairs LYE"


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