# Brittle oils- what are the cons?



## JayJay (Apr 19, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I have a read that it is best to keep brittle oils under 30% in most recipes. I am wondering about the rational for this. I have read that high percentage brittle oil recipes pose the risk of false trace if the mixture is too cool when soaping. Other than this, why wouldn't I want to use a high percentage of brittle oils?  I understand that higher percentages of PKO can be overly cleansing. But what about shea butter and cocoa butter?

Thanks for your help.


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## Obsidian (Apr 19, 2015)

Too much shea or coco butter can reduce lather and make a draggy soap. I've found coco butter to be worse then shea. I don't consider PKO to be brittle.


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## IrishLass (Apr 19, 2015)

You can use as high of a % of brittle fats as you desire, but it all comes down to what kind of qualities you'd like to achieve in your finished soap. 

Generally, the higher the amount of brittle fats, the warmer you'll most likely need to soap in order to keep the fats in melted suspension long enough for the lye to do it's best work on them so that you don't end up with 'stearic spots'.

Also, generally, huge amounts of brittle fats may do as Obsidian said, and may also contribute to the finished soap cracking (at least according to what I've heard from a handful of people who have made 100% tallow soaps).

Having said that, I have a couple of soap formulas that contain a higher than average amount of brittle or hard fats that are quite lovely to me:

70% coconut oil/30% mango butter, superfatted @15%
65% beef tallow/23% castor/12% olive 

There's also my shaving soap, too, which contains something like 53% brittle fats.

Like I said- much depends on what you hope to achieve.


IrishLass


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## LBussy (Apr 19, 2015)

Rules of thumb are great if you are working with thumbs. 

There are different fats that are solid at room temp and each brings different properties to the mix.  Some are very high in un-saponifiable fats and will create a moisturizing (or greasy) soap depending upon the concentrations.  Some like PKO are cleansing.  I don't think a 100% hard fat soap would be bad - people love 100% lard or Tallow soaps.


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## LBussy (Apr 19, 2015)

See, nobody had replied when I started but I got side-tracked typing when the wife said dinner was ready.


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## not_ally (Apr 19, 2015)

Greedy pig.  You have forgotten about the soap first rule.  Although if I lived next door and sniffed the dinner smells, I might find a reason to come over and give you a sample with (if necessary) made up reasons   Some rules are definitely made to be broken


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## DeeAnna (Apr 19, 2015)

I am wondering what y'all mean by brittle oils. The old soap makers made a distinction between brittle fats, hard fats, and liquid fats, but I don't think that's what is being discussed here. Enlighten me?


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## JayJay (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks everyone! This all makes sense.  

*IrishLass* wrote. "Like I said- much depends on what you hope to achieve"

I was thinking about a face soap. I heard that Shea is good for the face and won't clog pores. I was thinking about all the oils that would be present in the superfat and how they would do on my acne prone (but aging) face. I thought about using a high Shea content because it's hard and also okay to have on my face.  Every recipe that I have concocted so far contains oils that clog pores. I realize that I can HP the soap and add shea butter at the end, but I was trying to figure out a CP way to keep my pores clear. 

*DeeAnna*, I was using this as a resource. http://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 20, 2015)

If you keep reading to the end, the blogger also goes some way to explaining the above


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## kumudini (Apr 20, 2015)

If all other oils clog your pores shea might as well, I'm not even sure if that's what you meant.Whatever oils I use in my soaps, acne hasn't been a problem since switching to handmade. I even use a concoction of shea, cocoa, coconut oil and sweet almond oil for moisturizing head to toe. I also turned vegan few months before the switch, that might have something to do with the lowered tendency. The 1/4 moisturizing cream bar, brand name moisturizers and cheese in my diet were most notably associated with acne in my case and stress as well. So, it may not just be what you put on your skin. Even then, clays or AC in your soap might help.


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## Susie (Apr 20, 2015)

I don't have acne prone skin, but I have to wonder if the problem is the soap.  I am thinking probably not, or if it is, whether adjusting the superfat amount would help.  I just don't think soap stays on your skin long enough to cause the issue.  Usually acne is caused more from hormones, stress, products you leave on your skin, and heredity, and less from food and cleaning issues.


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## JayJay (Apr 20, 2015)

I don't currently have acne. I am acne prone. Or perhaps I have sensitive skin. I am not currently using homemade soap on my face and my skin looks good. I was thinking about making a face bar. Knowing my history I thought it would be wise to be careful.  In my brainstorming, I googled the cosmegenic value of all the oils that I was planning to use in my bar. Shea was the only that doesn't seem to give people trouble (who have acne). 

This process led me to the original question that I posted. I was curious about the idea of using brittle oils in general, because I didn't remember reading any posts here about anyone making a nice hard cocoa butter bar.  Nor did I remember reading warnings against it.  

*EG* -- I did read the entire page, and I was looking for additional information. Also I was cross referencing. Sometimes the folks in this forum say the complete opposite of what I read elsewhere on the Internet.  And sometimes I just gain additional insight from reading a range of opinions on the topic.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 20, 2015)

Thanks for the link, JayJay and Effy. I took a look at the article, and I'm still not sure I understand the distinction the author makes between brittle fats and hard fats -- still scratching my head about that.

When talking about fats that are solid at room temperature, I make a distinction between (a) the high lauric and myristic fats such as coconut, palm kernel and babassu, and (b) the high palmitic and stearic fats such as lard, tallow, palm, and the butters. The first group is what I understood from my studies to be the brittle fats and the second the hard fats. 

I'll try to find the reference, but until then I promise I will be politely quiet and not quibble further. :silent:


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## JayJay (Apr 20, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Thanks for the link, JayJay and Effy. I took a look at the article, and I'm still not sure I understand the distinction the author makes between brittle fats and hard fats -- still scratching my head about that.
> 
> When talking about fats that are solid at room temperature, I make a distinction between (a) the high lauric and myristic fats such as coconut, palm kernel and babassu, and (b) the high palmitic and stearic fats such as lard, tallow, palm, and the butters. The first group is what I understood from my studies to be the brittle fats and the second the hard fats.
> 
> I'll try to find the reference, but until then I promise I will be politely quiet and not quibble further. :silent:



Good to know! Please don't be silent. I ask questions because I want to learn. As I posted in my previous reply, I like to cross reference the things I read online so that I don't incorporate controversial or debated information as fact.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 20, 2015)

Oh, I'm definitely not the last word on this, JayJay, so please don't take my thoughts as gospel truth. You're a good egg with your heart in the right place!  

I'll keep hunting......


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## JayJay (Apr 20, 2015)

Susie said:


> I don't have acne prone skin, but I have to wonder if the problem is the soap.  I am thinking probably not, or if it is, whether adjusting the superfat amount would help. * I just don't think soap stays on your skin long enough to cause the issue*.  Usually acne is caused more from hormones, stress, products you leave on your skin, and heredity, and less from food and cleaning issues.



Susie, i was wondering about the superfat. I was assuming that it would remain on my skin, or in my pores.  But do you think that it would rinse away?


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## JayJay (Apr 20, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Oh, I'm definitely not the last word on this, JayJay, so please don't take my thoughts as gospel truth. You're a good egg with your heart in the right place!
> 
> I'll keep hunting......



Thanks. DeeAnna.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 21, 2015)

Also bear in mind that a saponified oil is different than an oil - it's a salt, not an oil anymore. So if this particular oil has properties that you want, hp superfat might be the best option for it

Eta - I mentioned the whole article because your original posts states that you had read it might cause false trace, but other than what would potential issues be. That sounds as if you hadn't also read the rest of the information that the article had.


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## Susie (Apr 21, 2015)

JayJay said:


> Susie, i was wondering about the superfat. I was assuming that it would remain on my skin, or in my pores.  But do you think that it would rinse away?



I think enough washes away to not really leave a lot.  I would probably not go above 5% superfat, and I have read somewhere on here(search: facial bars) that high coconut oil soaps can cause more oil to be produced.   But there are lots of us with teens who's skin is now much clearer just by swapping to hand made soap that I would love for someone to do a study.(Not that that would ever happen, as it takes big $ for universities to do studies such as that.)


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## JayJay (Apr 21, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Also bear in mind that a saponified oil is different than an oil - it's a salt, not an oil anymore. So if this particular oil has properties that you want, hp superfat might be the best option for it
> 
> Eta - I mentioned the whole article because your original posts states that you had read it might cause false trace, but other than what would potential issues be. That sounds as if you hadn't also read the rest of the information that the article had.



I think I may be missing something here but I am not sure what.roblem:


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## Susie (Apr 21, 2015)

Which part are you missing?


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## JayJay (Apr 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> I think enough washes away to not really leave a lot.  I would probably not go above 5% superfat, and I have read somewhere on here(search: facial bars) that high coconut oil soaps can cause more oil to be produced.   But there are lots of us with teens who's skin is now much clearer just by swapping to hand made soap that I would love for someone to do a study.(Not that that would ever happen, as it takes big $ for universities to do studies such as that.)



I was planning to make a mild bar because I have already noticed that my skin is more oily when I use harsh products. In the past I have used a very popular anti acne skin care line (for years) which I am convinced has aged my skin. I don't use the acne products anymore. 

When I am ready to make my face bar, I will experiment and see how it goes. I don't know if I would mind my soap being draggy because I use washcloths. I may try a small batch with higher percentage of shea than normal and see how I like it.


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## JayJay (Apr 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> Which part are you missing?



The part of the article that gives the same information the you all have mentioned in this thread.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 22, 2015)

JayJay said:


> The part of the article that gives the same information the you all have mentioned in this thread.




Then what are actually missing is my point:

You only mentioned that you had read about possible false trace. No other pros or cons. 

The end of the article talks about many factors - as you hadn't mentioned reading about them, it suggested that you hadn't read the whole thing. 

My point was never that the article mentions everything that is here. So if you thought that was what I meant, I can understand your confusion.


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