# The most lingering scent EO or FO?



## AnitaB (May 23, 2013)

I do know that FO's have so many more choices over EO's. Since I'm very new to soap & lotion making whch one would you say the scent lingers on more-so?


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## 100%Natural (May 23, 2013)

I strictly use EO's for scenting.  Some are better than others at sticking around for extended periods of time.  The best I've found so far are Patchouli, Spearmint and Lemongrass.  I use several combinations and quite often add in an anchoring scent such as Litsea Cubeba, Star Anise or Patchouli.

After reading about the chemicals contained in FO's I made a choice to not use them.  EO's aren't always chemical free but my customers and family absolutely love them and specifically seek my products out because of that.

It's a personal choice, but I definitely recommend EO's.


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## Kay (May 23, 2013)

I am very new myself, so I'll be following this thread. I've only made 3 HP batches of soap myself. I'm still pretty confused about EO's and FO's at this point. The batches I've made, I can smell the scents on the soap, but they don't smell like anything on me. I'd rather have a smell left behind. I'm wondering whether I didn't make it strong enough (didn't use enough EO) or maybe I should use FO's instead.


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## 100%Natural (May 23, 2013)

Kay said:


> I am very new myself, so I'll be following this thread. I've only made 3 HP batches of soap myself. I'm still pretty confused about EO's and FO's at this point. The batches I've made, I can smell the scents on the soap, but they don't smell like anything on me. I'd rather have a smell left behind. I'm wondering whether I didn't make it strong enough (didn't use enough EO) or maybe I should use FO's instead.



The only EO I find that leaves a lingering scent is Patchouli.  I haven't tried them all so there could be a few more out there that will stick around.

One rule of thumb to make sure you follow when using EO's is to never go above 3% total weight.  It's tempting to add tons but EO's can be very sensitizing and toxic when used in high amounts.

The most fleeting scents are the citrus EO's.  They tend to fade away from the exterior of the bar but I find once you get using it, it's still there.


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## jcandleattic (May 23, 2013)

AnitaB said:


> I do know that FO's have so many more choices over EO's. Since I'm very new to soap & lotion making whch one would you say the scent lingers on more-so?



The answer to that is subjective and really depends on your formulation, among other things. 
For one, soap is a wash off product and most if not all scent will do just that, wash off. However lotions are a stay on and the scent will linger. But even though you want them to linger, you don't want them to be overbearing and too strong, and there are different levels for each that are within a safe range to use in every application. And every scent whether it be an EO or and FO are going to have differing levels.
I use FO's because I prefer them over EO's and have not educated myself enough on which EO's are safe and at what levels, so I tend to stay away from them until I have dedicated the time to learn about them, like I have with FO's.


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## lsg (May 23, 2013)

I am using a new e.o. blend of lemongrass and sage that is extremely lingering.


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## bodhi (May 23, 2013)

I also will only use EO's.  

I have found quite a few that leave a lingering scent, but i also tend to use more than 3%.  

Where did this 3% rule i have read a few times on this forum come from?


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## Kay (May 24, 2013)

Hey AnitaB! I found a very interesting read and wanted to share with you!
http://www.essentialoils.co.za/blending_fragrances.htm

I think I did two things wrong with my soap batch. Firstly, I only used lemon and geranium EO's. These are top and middle notes, and I had no base note. Secondly, in order to get 3%, I should have used 28 grams. I only added 12 grams of EO's to my soap batch. Live and learn!


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## jcandleattic (May 24, 2013)

bodhi said:


> I also will only use EO's.
> 
> I have found quite a few that leave a lingering scent, but i also tend to use more than 3%.
> 
> Where did this 3% rule i have read a few times on this forum come from?



It comes from research and knowing the product they are using. Some eo's it is safe to use higher than 3% (but not many) - some are only safe at 1% or less - some are not safe at all. Knowing which ones are which is key to making a safe product. 

Anyone making any kind of product should read, research and learn the products they are using so they are safe and the people using the end product they make are safe as well.


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## AnitaB (May 24, 2013)

I will definitely do some research on them both! I supposed I should've known that FO's would have chemicals just because they do add other stuff. That in itself is a strike for me.  

100% Natural -What does Patchouli smells like? Never heard of it. As far a lemongrass, I don't like lemon scented anything, but there again I've never smelled lemongrass so it may be a nice change. Will have to give the others a try that you mentioned soon 


Kay - thanks for the info, I'll go check t out later. What do you mean by -These are top and middle notes, and I had no base note. Could you be more specific? I am new to soap making. 

JC- I completely hear what you're saying and I agree. I want to know what is going into my soaps, even the tiniest amount I want to know! Also I am very safety consciences, so just learning the little I have already about the FO's I may stick with EO's and be as close to natural as possible.

LSG- sage seams a bit harsh, but probably not so much mixed with lemongrass?


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## 100%Natural (May 24, 2013)

Patchouli is an earthy scented EO.  The best I can describe it is that it smells like dirt...lol.  A good dirt though!  It is a base note so it sticks around longer and is considered an anchor due to that.  I blend it with orange and it is really popular.  People tend to either love it or hate it.  Think of the sixties!

If you don't like lemon then you won't like lemongrass.  It is a stronger version of lemon and can be quite overpowering.

Before delving into adding in EO's I would recommend lots of reading.  People tend to forget that they aren't strictly for scenting and have medicinal properties - all things misused or overused can have repercussions - especially with sensitive skin.


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## AnitaB (May 24, 2013)

100%Natural said:


> Patchouli is an earthy scented EO.  The best I can describe it is that it smells like dirt...lol.  A good dirt though!  It is a base note so it sticks around longer and is considered an anchor due to that.  I blend it with orange and it is really popular.  People tend to either love it or hate it.  Think of the sixties!
> 
> If you don't like lemon then you won't like lemongrass.  It is a stronger version of lemon and can be quite overpowering.
> 
> Before delving into adding in EO's I would recommend lots of reading.  People tend to forget that they aren't strictly for scenting and have medicinal properties - all things misused or overused can have repercussions - especially with sensitive skin.



LOl you mean to tell me people are using a "Dirt" scented soap to get clean? :shock: That's hilarious!

Thanks for the heads up on the lemongrass. I made some orange-lemon  m&p or hand milled (whatever it is) balls last week and they are still soft. Hate the smell though! I do have sensitive skin so I will read up on the EO's & FO's to protect myself. All my soap I am making for my family and myself.  When I do get better I might think about sellng it, we'll see....

But for now I want to learn how and the whys & where fors.

While I'm thnkng about it, Can you tell me which ones are considered a base soap?


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## CCa1892 (May 24, 2013)

It is a good reference ! I just posted this link last night on another thread discussing the same concerns....There is allot of good information here... Enjoy!




Kay said:


> Hey AnitaB! I found a very interesting read and wanted to share with you!
> http://www.essentialoils.co.za/blending_fragrances.htm
> 
> I think I did two things wrong with my soap batch. Firstly, I only used lemon and geranium EO's. These are top and middle notes, and I had no base note. Secondly, in order to get 3%, I should have used 28 grams. I only added 12 grams of EO's to my soap batch. Live and learn!


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## lsg (May 24, 2013)

Not really, you use more lemongrass than sage.  You would be surprised how pleasant the scent is.


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## AnitaB (May 24, 2013)

I don't know if you guys do this or have already done it, but all the important soap making stuff I have printed it out and put in a binder for easy reference. Including fun & interesting recipes that I want to try.


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## lsg (May 24, 2013)

I do that also and I have many binders full of useful information and recipes.


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## Kay (May 24, 2013)

If you'll read the link, it explains that there are three different types of oils. Some are top notes (which apparently don't linger very long) Medium notes ( linger a little longer) and Base notes (which linger the longest) Have you tried rose geranium oil? That's what I used in my batch. It smells very nice! I had geranium rose and lemon in my batch, which meant I had a top and a middle. I needed a base. I also needed to add more overall! lol! I was afraid I'd overdo it, and instead it wasn't enough! I've ordered some rose EO to add to my next batch.  That should blend in well with what I already have...I THINK! lol!


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## Kay (May 24, 2013)

Ok. I haven't made enough batches to actually NEED a binder....YET! lol! For my next batch, I'd like to use Rose Geranium, Lemon, and Rose EO's. From what I've learned so far, I need to add 28 grams total for a 32 oz batch. yes? How much of each should I add? Or does it matter? 

To Anita, I think if you add lemon with other EO's, it'll add a little 'twang', but you won't be able to actually smell the lemon. That's what happened when I added lemon to rose geranium anyway.


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## bodhi (May 24, 2013)

jcandleattic said:


> It comes from research and knowing the product they are using. Some eo's it is safe to use higher than 3% (but not many) - some are only safe at 1% or less - some are not safe at all. Knowing which ones are which is key to making a safe product.
> 
> Anyone making any kind of product should read, research and learn the products they are using so they are safe and the people using the end product they make are safe as well.



Yes, i agree that any ingredient used should be researched, but im wondering if there is a reference somewhere to this 3%.  Or if there are any links to the research that determined safe amounts talked about here that someone could share?

I am wondering because there seems to be a lot of misinformation regarding essential oils out there.   I have read blog entries (I dont use them for research, but many do, frightening) that said eo's are safe because of the historical use of the herbs.  'we know about the safe use of eo's because these herbs have been used for thousands of years'  wow!  How very wrong. Herbs and eo's can not be compared.  I have also read that some eo's should not be used at all because they are toxic, yet these same constituents that supposedly make them toxic for eo use are used in fda approved topical and internal products in almost every household at 10% and more.  It also seen writings that state certain herbs should not be used because the essential oils have been found to be toxic. Again wrong because you cannot compare the eo to the herb and toxicity info i have found on eo's is based on consumption of eo not herb or topical which are all different. 

So anyway, sorry for the ramble  Im just looking for some references to this number i have seen tossed around a lot here so I can read a little more about it.


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## lsg (May 24, 2013)

bodhi, I am not sure to what posts you are referring.  Can you give us a link to some of those posts?  There may have been a reason why 3% was suggested.


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## Lindy (May 24, 2013)

bodhi said:


> I also will only use EO's.
> 
> I have found quite a few that leave a lingering scent, but i also tend to use more than 3%.
> 
> Where did this 3% rule i have read a few times on this forum come from?



3% is considered therapeutic in aromatherapy and essential oils were  developed as a therapeutic product.  Soapmakers in recent years have decided that since they smell pretty they should be in their soaps.  If you were to look at the IFRA recommendations on each essential oil (this should be available from your EO supplier on each) you will see the actual percentage on some are 0.7% because of the sensitization issues (Cinnamon).  Yes soap is a wash off product, however the reason our soaps are so marvelous is that we leave free floating oils to condition the skin, which means they remain on the skin after washing off.  Essential oils are nonsaponifiables are they are not true oils and therefore they too remain free-floating in the soap.  Even when the scent fades the therapeutic properties remain, scent is only part of the essential oil and although it does create some therapeutic response it is not the property that is going to affect your liver, etc.

So having gone through all this, it is the reason 3% is the maximum recommended in soap.  In leave-on 1% is the recommended amount.


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## Lindy (May 24, 2013)

Bodhi - you might want to look into a beginner aromatherapy course to help answer some of  these questions....


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## bodhi (May 24, 2013)

Thank you Lindy, that makes sense now that this number is based on aromatherapy recommendations. Even though eo's may not be 'saponifiable' many of the chemical properties do not survive the saponificaion process at all and inhalation is different than absorption. 

Do you know what research aromatherapists base their recommended usage rates from? I see that ifra has restricted menthol use for their members because of the methyl salicylate content, odd.


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## Lindy (May 25, 2013)

The more irritating the EO the lower the recommended dosage.  According to Robert Tisserand and Kevin Dunn the therapeutic properties of the essential oils do survive saponification which is why these recommendations exist.  If you lived in the EU you would be restricted differently on each oil depending on the irritants and allergens.  You would also have to have an SA to be able to make soap to sell which would have the restrictions stated on it.  I'll see if I can find more information.  The best info is coming out of Europe and it seems to me they feel 3% is high on a total allowed.


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## Lindy (May 25, 2013)

Here is some information which may be of interest to you.  It is from Fresholi in Europe in the Resources Section.


> IFRA List of Banned/Restricted Oils
> Of course all essential oils and other natural aromatic materials  present issues of sensitisation if used in too high concentrations  however, the IFRA have identified specific oils that are either banned  for use in costmetics and perfumes or have restrictive limits.   Following is the current list of banned/restricted oils but this is  subject to changes.
> *IFRA banned oils
> *
> ...


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## soapguy (Jun 21, 2013)

AnitaB

I am new to perfuming, but in perfumes you must include high notes, middle notes and base notes. Google perfumes and it will explain things further. There are charts that will explain what group a particular EO falls under. Some will fall into one or more groups.


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## soapguy (Jun 21, 2013)

Canada and European countries usually recommend a 3% EO conc. Personally, I don't trust government guidelines and always suspect there is more to their criteria that involves other issues not related to the subject at hand.


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