# Castile vs Bastille. . . That is the Question



## Francis (Jan 1, 2012)

I am debating on whether I should make castile soap, but I am discouraged by the slime and lack of bubbles factor of castile. I've never made castile soap, and 6 month+ cure time is way too long for me to wait to find out whether I would like it or not. I love super mild and moisturizing soap, but I love bubbles and big lather, too. So, I would like to know how many of you prefer bastille to castile. Castile vs bastille, that is the question. Thanks for your input.


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## Dragonkaz (Jan 2, 2012)

Soap can be conditioning, but not moisturising!

I love castile and the wait is not an issue, as many good things take time ... and castile is just another one of them.

Personally I prefer using soap that his highly fragranced and coloured, but my skin appears able to cope with just about anything I put on it.  Whereas I have family and friends who are thrilled to be able to use a soap that's castile ... as they prefer that to many of the tars they usually have to use.

I've never made a soap I've intentionally called bastile and realise as a madeup term it means many things.

I believe the only way you'll know whether you like castile is to make it, cure it and try it.  Until then, you'll be left wondering!


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## Traceyann (Jan 2, 2012)

I cannot answer as I have never made castille!


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## ToniD (Jan 2, 2012)

The only true Castile I ever made, I was not happy with.   Replace the water with buttermilk--nice soap.   Add carrot powder and honey to that mix and you have nice mild soap with some lather (after long cure--can't get away from that)

Bastille can be good or not depending on what you formulate, so it is hard to say Bastille is better cuz some are and some are just not such great soap.


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## Hazel (Jan 2, 2012)

I agree with ToniD. I'm don't care for a true Castile but I've added buttermilk and really like it. I've also made one with cream and oatmeal but I haven't tried that one yet. 

I didn't like bastile until I came up with a different recipe. I don't know if it's the balance of the oils or if it's the addition of hemp milk but I love the feel and the lather of this soap. However, just because I think it's wonderful doesn't mean someone else would like it. It's personal preference.


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## IrishLass (Jan 2, 2012)

I voted for the last choice- liking both for different reasons. 

I love using a true Castile, but only with one of those pouf things (my regular facial cloth does not provide enough friction to get the lather going). Without the friction from the pouf, the lather is pretty dismal to non-existant with my hard water, and what small amount of lather it does produce is thin and goopy. With the pouf, however, things are much different. I get copious amounts of luscious, creamy/bubbly lather that quite borders on decadent. The only problem is that I don't like poufs as much as my facial cloth. The cloth is more gentle to my skin.

My Bastile recipe which contains 50% OO has plenty enough lovely, creamy/bubbly lather to keep me happy without the need of excess friction from a pouf, and it doesn't take so long to cure. 


IrishLass


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## carebear (Jan 2, 2012)

I voted for loving neither; my other soaps are much better - but that doesn't take into account label appeal.  My customers love the 100% OO castile so I make that, and I make one with a milk in place of the water which isn't a castile, exactly so I just call it olive oil soap.


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## saltydog (Jan 2, 2012)

My MIL LOVES my 100% OO Castile, so I will always make it for her. She is scent- sensitive and has very dry skin, so I don't fragrance it either. She doesn't consider it slime, but silk. It's all in the perception, I guess.

I hesitated on trying Castile, too, but the time goes by whether or not you make the soap, so try a small batch and see for yourself. 
Personally, I like the 100% OO soap, but I like my 'regular' soaps better.


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2012)

The past couple months I've seen the term "Bastile" (was w/o a puter for quite awhile before Sept) and have not been sure what it was exactly. I figured that it was Castille with some other ingredients. 

What is Bastile?
IDLaura


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## IrishLass (Jan 3, 2012)

GoatSoaperLaura said:
			
		

> The past couple months I've seen the term "Bastile" (was w/o a puter for quite awhile before Sept) and have not been sure what it was exactly. I figured that it was Castille with some other ingredients.
> 
> What is Bastile?
> IDLaura



You're on the right track. The term 'Bastile' is a made up, tongue-in-cheek term coined by a fellow soaper as a joke to describe a Castile that has been 'bastardized' by adding other ingredients to it such as milk or oats or honey, etc.... and/or lowering the % of olive oil and adding other oils in its place to make up the difference. 

IrishLass


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## green soap (Jan 3, 2012)

That's right, Castille is the french word to describe soap from Castilla, Spain, which is (or was back when the term was first used) made with 100% olive oil.  It is OK to scent it, but it cannot have other carrier oils.

I have no idea if there is a standard for Bastille.  Some use 70% OO and something else, which can be any other oil or oils, as far as I understand.


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## Francis (Jan 3, 2012)

*Will have to try some*

Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions. I have a few batches of bastille curing, but I will just have to try making some castile to satisfy my curiosity. Keep the votes coming everyone, this is very fascinating.


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## IrishLass (Jan 3, 2012)

green soap said:
			
		

> I have no idea if there is a standard for Bastille.  Some use 70% OO and something else, which can be any other oil or oils, as far as I understand.



Since the word, 'Bastile' itself is not a true 'official', standard term for a soap, there's really no official/standard 'Bastile' formula. It varies from soaper to soaper, although most would probably agree that olive oil should be the predominant oil in the formula. My own 'Bastile', which I prefer to call a 'Castile-type' among my non-soaper friends to avoid confusion with the infamous, historical Parisian fortress/prison of the same name (yes- I've been asked if it's prison soap!   )  , contains 50% OO and smaller amounts of other oils/butters. I've made other types of 'Bastiles" ranging anywhere from 50% to 80%, but I really like my 50% best.


IrishLass


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2012)

IrishLass said:
			
		

> You're on the right track. The term 'Bastile' is a made up, tongue-in-cheek term coined by a fellow soaper as a joke to describe a Castile that has been 'bastardized' by adding other ingredients to it such as milk or oats or honey, etc.... and/or lowering the % of olive oil and adding other oils in its place to make up the difference.
> 
> IrishLass



Thanks for the answer. I figured it was that. But then thought it might have been some kind of soap that had been made in the Bastille (the french prison) that was similar to the Spanish Castile soap. The old brainpan tends to go off on tangents when I'm tired ;-)

When I voted, I went with my own recipes, cause I really do have a wonderful couple that my customers love! I did make Castile once and Bastille many times and I prefer the Bastille better.
IDLaura


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## G. Man (Jan 3, 2012)

I havn't seen a castile soap at the store that is just olive oil and lye. 

Dr. Bronner's Soaps say they're castile soap, but olive oil is the 3rd or 4th ingredient. Same goes for the Dessert Essence brand (which I love). 

From what I've read, the def. of castile soap is that it only contains olive oil and lye w/ no scent. But I've read that people refer to castile as vegtable based soap without the use of animal fats. So I guess it depends on the def. you choose?? 

One book I have read, describes castile as being a soap containing more than 60% olive oil.


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## IrishLass (Jan 3, 2012)

G. Man said:
			
		

> I havn't seen a castile soap at the store that is just olive oil and lye.
> 
> Dr. Bronner's Soaps say they're castile soap, but olive oil is the 3rd or 4th ingredient. Same goes for the Dessert Essence brand (which I love).
> 
> ...



I agree- a commercial soap labeled as Castile (at least here in the USA) that contains only olive oil and lye is a rare find. My healthfood store carries a Castile that is just olive oil and lye (and a handful of others that don't), but I can't remember the maker of it. I'll look again next time I go there.

The term 'Castile' is a rather nebulous term, at least in the USA. I did some amateur sleuthing on it a few years ago and I found out that the FTC here in the US (the US Federal Trade Commission) actually tried to protect the term 'Castile' back in the late 1920's when they slapped the Kirk's soap company with a 'cease and desist' order from labeling their soap 'Castile' when it actually had no olive oil in it (even back then the argument raged).

In my online sleuthing on some .gov sites I found out that the case was settled in 1932 when the 'cease and desist' order was reversed. The reversal was handed down when a pre-existing circular published in 1923 by the US Dept of Commerce, Bureau of Standards was brought up at the trial. This is what it said in the circular (bolding mine):





> UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, BUREAU OF STANDARDS
> Circular No.62, “Soap,” 3d edition, published January 24, 1923, at p.9:
> “Castile soap was originally made from low-grade olive oils. *The name now represents a type of soap, the term “castile’ being applied to a soap intended for toilet or household use, sold usually in large, unwrapped, unperfumed bars, which are cut up when sold or when used.* It is often drawn directly from the kettle without ‘crutching’, but is sometimes crutched a little or even enough to make it float and is sometimes
> milled. It is also sold in small bars, both wrapped and unwrapped. *The type is not one easily defined, so now when made from olive oil it is invariably sold as olive-oil castile There are soaps made entirely from coconut oil which are sold as coconut castiles or hard-water castiles. Many other castiles are made from a mixture of coconut oil and tallow.”*



A couple of petitions were filed against the reversal, but the ruling of 1932 was allowed to stand (and still stands as far as I've been able to detect). That would explain why Kirk's and Dr. Bronner can legally use the name 'Castile' in their soap in the USA even though they are not 100% OO. 


On the Kirks site the following can be found in their FAQ page : 




> What does Castile mean?
> 
> Today, Castile refers to soaps made without animal fats.



I would add the caveat that the above quote from Kirk's only applies in the US where the term 'Castile' is not protected. I'm sure soap makers from other countries would take issue with Kirk's definition, as would many handmade soap makers here in the US, but what can I say? It is what it is (at least here in the US).

IrishLass


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## green soap (Jan 3, 2012)

This is very interesting IrishLass, thank you for sharing your research.  I have wandered too, why Dr Bronners (a fine soap by the way) insists on being called Castile, when it is not.  Now we know!

By the way, Castile was first made in Spain because there is an abundance of olives, and olive oil presses.  Pomace always gets produced, but no one wants it for food, so it is very cheap.  On the other hand, animal fats are pricey/scarce and people seem to enjoy eating them (think chorizo, salami, and pernil).  Coconuts or palms do not grow much in Spain either.  100% olive oil soap was first made to utilize the resources at hand, not to make the 'ideal' soap.  

It is gentle and nice for babies. I admire the patience to wait 6 months too.


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## youreapima2 (Jan 3, 2012)

I have tried 1 castile soap recipe from Millers page, NO PALM. It contained OO, CO, Soybean oil.

At first I hated it, as is was very drying on the skin.
However after 6-7 months I love it for a shaving soap.

I prefer fragrances in my soap. My skin can take pretty much anything.

I did give my castile soap to a friend that cannot even use dove unscented, as she has super sensitive skin, and she LOVED it.
Her only complaint was that it melted in the shower (which was her hubby's fault)! LOL


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## lillybella (Jan 12, 2013)

*Sugar added to Castile Rebatch  - Slimy?*

Hi 

Would adding sugar to Castile rebatch - (made with just Olive Oil) make a difference with lather & that slimy feel?

I love my Castile Soap, but I think some of my customers would prefer more lather. I don't want to refer to the lather as _*slimy*_.

I'm not sure how to describe the lather in Castile Soap - calling it* slimy* doesn't sound too appealing, but I feel like I should let my customers know the lather isn't the same as soaps with coconut oil in them.

Any ideas?

Thank you,
lily


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## Gryfonmoon (Jan 12, 2013)

I am a hardcore fan of 100% olive oil soap. This past December, I made some 100% Castile and poured it into Christmas tree molds and am just gonna store them for next year. One year cure will make them nice. Using a poofy-thingy really helps with the lather of a 100% Castile bar.

On the other hand, I love 100% CO soap because of the lovely bubbles.

I personally think any soap that's at least 90% olive oil could be considered Castile, but that's my own personal definition.


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## melstan775 (Jan 12, 2013)

Thanks for the history lesson about the definition of castille soap. I like stuff
Like that. Awesome facts are awesome.


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## lillybella (Jan 12, 2013)

lillybella said:


> Hi
> 
> Would adding sugar to Castile rebatch - (made with just Olive Oil) make a difference with lather & that slimy feel?
> 
> ...


_________________

Hi,
Can anyone help me with my sugar question & my slimy question, please?

lily


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## judymoody (Jan 12, 2013)

I've never added sugar to Castille soap so I can't answer your question.  I've only made it once and even after a year's cure, I still didn't care for it.

If it were me and I wanted to use 100% OO, I'd use coconut milk at the liquid.  That would give you some natural sugars as well as the fat that's in the coconut milk.  Of course then it wouldn't be true Castille but it depends how purist you want to be.


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## lillybella (Jan 12, 2013)

Thank you. Judy.
That's a really good idea.

How about a nicer way to say slimy?


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## Gryfonmoon (Jan 12, 2013)

lillybella said:


> How about a nicer way to say slimy?




How about viscous? 
_
"Here we have a 100% olive oil bar with a mild, viscous lather..."_


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## lillybella (Jan 12, 2013)

viscous=slimy  LOL

anything else more like creamy???? silky????


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## Gryfonmoon (Jan 12, 2013)

I think creamy would be a nice way to say it.


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## green soap (Jan 12, 2013)

what is slimy to someone is silky to someone else....


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## lillybella (Jan 12, 2013)

Thank you!

I like silky!


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## Venus (Jan 13, 2013)

Hello from Greece

According to Greek law you can call your soap a) Pure Castile type only if contains 100% Extra virgin olive oil, no color, no scent. It’s just lye and and extra virgin olive oil.
b) You can call your soap Castile type only if contains 100% olive oil (no pomace), no color, no scent. It’s just lye and and olive oil 
c) You can call your soap “olive oil soap” only if it contains more than 60% olive oil.
So when you use pomace in your soap, even if it’s 100% pomace, you can’t call it castile type. It’s just an olive soap. All these according to Greek law of course…..

Has anybody try to add salt and sugar to a castile type soap? Do we have better lather and harder soap this way????


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## lillybella (Jan 13, 2013)

*salt and sugar to a castile type soap*

_*Has anybody try to add salt and sugar to a castile type soap? Do we have better lather and harder soap this way????

Hi 

I would like to know this too!

*_My Castile Soap (rebatch) 100% OO gets so hard! It's as hard as a ROCK!

Personally, I do not like my soap this hard!_*

lily
*_


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## Gryfonmoon (Jan 13, 2013)

Venus said:


> Hello from Greece
> 
> According to Greek law you can call your soap a) Pure Castile type only if contains 100% Extra virgin olive oil, no color, no scent. It’s just lye and and extra virgin olive oil.
> b) You can call your soap Castile type only if contains 100% olive oil (no pomace), no color, no scent. It’s just lye and and olive oil
> ...



I wonder why pomace is excluded? I use pomace olive oil, and the tin says it's mixed with extra virgin. I know pomace is extruded a bit differently though so maybe that's it.


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## Venus (Jan 13, 2013)

Gryfonmoon said:


> I wonder why pomace is excluded? I use pomace olive oil, and the tin says it's mixed with extra virgin. I know pomace is extruded a bit differently though so maybe that's it.





Olive oil is extracted from the fruit of the olive tree. There are different types, grades and uses of olive oil, depending on how the original oil is extracted. Pomace oil is a lesser grade and quality than olive oil due to the way in which it is extracted and the chemicals used in the process.
Virgin olive oil is a superior quality, grade and overall product than pomace oil.


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## Gryfonmoon (Jan 13, 2013)

Venus said:


> Olive oil is extracted from the fruit of the olive tree. There are different types, grades and uses of olive oil, depending on how the original oil is extracted. Pomace oil is a lesser grade and quality than olive oil due to the way in which it is extracted and the chemicals used in the process.
> Virgin olive oil is a superior quality, grade and overall product than pomace oil.



I understand that pomace tastes terrible, but for soaping it's great. It seems to be a waste of money to use extra virgin olive oil for soaping when it's better to eat it. Does olive oil quality really honestly matter for soap making?


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## Dorado (Jan 13, 2013)

I've made soap from fresh 1 ¤ hand-pressed olive oil (green brown) of virgin olive oil (green) and cheap olive oil (light yellow)
And I can say there is a big difference.
I prefer the hand-pressed, a much fatter soap, without being slimy.
I just ordered 40 lb, from some friends who have olive trees. And I'm certainly not going to use it for cooking.


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## Gryfonmoon (Jan 13, 2013)

Although I do not have access to fresh pressed olive oil (so I can't comment on that directly), I personally haven't noticed any real difference in pomace versus virgin, extra virgin, or regular olive oils.

Although I would love to find some super fresh OO to try!  That sounds neat!


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## Venus (Jan 13, 2013)

Gryfonmoon said:


> I understand that pomace tastes terrible, but for soaping it's great. It seems to be a waste of money to use extra virgin olive oil for soaping when it's better to eat it. Does olive oil quality really honestly matter for soap making?



It's a personal preference. I find that pomace and "grade B" olive oil saponifies way too quickly for me (I like to play with it before pouring into the molds). 
I also don't like to use the lower grades because a solvent is usually used to extract the oil. My personal preference is to stay away from oils extracted with a solvent... It's just me, it probably doesn't really matter that much! 
From the other hand....pomace and grade b olive oil give better soap because  the lower the grade, the more molecules there are that won't go through saponification. In other words, more of the olive oil will remain intact throughout the reaction making the soap better for your skin. And of course it's much cheaper


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## CaliChan (Jan 13, 2013)

I never tried to do 100 olive oil. im gonna try it today!


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## Gryfonmoon (Jan 13, 2013)

You know, now that I think about it, I wonder if I've never seen much of a difference because of the source of my oils; just because it's labeled at 'pure' or 'virgin' doesn't mean it's NOT adulterated. Hmmmm....

CaliChan, do it! It takes a while to cure but it's wonderful stuff.


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## lillybella (Jan 13, 2013)

I love my 100% Olive Oil - whether slimy or silky I love it!

I do it as a rebatch because I can't wait a year for it.

I started making it because I have a customer who can not use any nut products. She is allergic. She asked me to make her soap with no coconut, shea butter...

She loves the OO and she doesn't have any problems at all with it!


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## melstan775 (Jan 13, 2013)

Venus said:


> Hello from Greece
> 
> According to Greek law you can call your soap a) Pure Castile type only if contains 100% Extra virgin olive oil, no color, no scent. It’s just lye and and extra virgin olive oil.
> b) You can call your soap Castile type only if contains 100% olive oil (no pomace), no color, no scent. It’s just lye and and olive oil
> ...



Thats interesting laws. Is it because Greece is known for it's olive products? Or some other reason?


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## Venus (Jan 13, 2013)

Ummmm…I really don’t know why here in Greece we have so many strict rules about naming-labelling a soap. The truth is that we produce a lot of olive oil and it’s arguably the best olive oil in the world. Almost every Greek family has its very own olive oil, and “secret “ HP or CP OO soap recipe.  Don’t forget that the castile soap is  characterized as a Protected Designation of Origin product.


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 19, 2014)

Francis said:


> Castile vs bastille, that is the question.



One question but you'll get a million different answers because it all depends on the person.

Other people say Castile is slimy or gooey but I never think that.  I made 100% OO Castile, no scent, no additives and I love the bars I tested.  I don't find them slimy.  To me they are slick or slippery and they glide nicely on my super dry, alligator skin.  I feel really clean but never dried out after using them.  I don't need moisturizer any more and my skin tone has evened out and that is from bars that are only a few months old.  

I'll definitely be making more of this and since I'm super skin  sensitive bubbles and scents are the least of my worries.  I'll take  creamy lather and happy skin over fluffy bubbles and fancy scents any day!   ... and if they only get better with age I'm ok with waiting.


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 19, 2014)

Gryfonmoon said:


> I wonder why pomace is excluded? I use pomace olive oil, and the tin says it's mixed with extra virgin. I know pomace is extruded a bit differently though so maybe that's it.



It might be because virgin and extra virgin are cold pressed while pomace is chemically expressed .. not sure, just guessing out loud.


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## AustinStraight (Mar 19, 2014)

You might enjoy 100% olive oil, -30% superfat bars.  They take _months _to cure but from what I've heard, they're way better than "normal" castile soap with a 5% superfat.


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## elmtree (Mar 21, 2014)

AustinStraight said:


> You might enjoy 100% olive oil, -30% superfat bars.  They take _months _to cure but from what I've heard, they're way better than "normal" castile soap with a 5% superfat.




Is this a negative 30%? Really? Interesting!


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## DeeAnna (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, Austin's right. The recipe has an unusual amount of water as well. It's definitely not a beginner recipe for a couple of reasons. There's a pretty good chance of separation in the mold if you don't follow the rules for blending the batter. Also the recipe stays lye heavy for some time, so you can't be jumping the gun and using it too soon, like most of us have done as newbies with our first soaps. But a bunch of us are having fun exploring how and why this recipe works.


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## Shaefercd (Feb 19, 2015)

*Add Goats Milk*

I make a Goats Milk, Castille Soap and sell as Baby Bar and Also as a Castille Soap and I think it is great.

Like others have said.  Bastille and Castillle have their own qualities and ther is nothing wronb with having both!

I also say it is perception.  My soap is not slimy it is Silky or lotiony~:-D


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