# Is 3 oz ppo of FO going too far?



## Guest (May 31, 2008)

I keep getting bars that have very little fragrance. I've wasted more money on EOs & FOs than anything else since I started the hobby.

My mold fits 2-3/4 lb batches. I've been thinking of making a pina colada bar and bought some FOs from GenWax that are skin safe: 4 oz pineapple and 4 oz of coconut. I plan to color the pineapple yellow and hope I can find a recipe that produces white soap, or I've got some titanium dioxide coming Monday.

1. Would it be worth the trouble to scent each color separately or should I just scent the whole batch with both FOs before I split it?

2. Would pineapple and coconut satisfy the high note low note thing?

3. If I use the whole FO bottles that's 8 oz / 2.75 lb = 2.9 oz ppo. I haven't been getting suitable scent at 1.5 ppo to date. Is almost 3 oz ppo going too far? And should I maybe subtract a bit of my base oils to compensate for the added fatting from the FOs?

I'll appreciate your advice!


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## Tabitha (May 31, 2008)

Most places will tell you the MAX for CP or HP soap is 5% . 5% of 1 pound would be .8oz per pound of oils. With that being siad, I think the standard is about 2oz per pound.


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## Tabitha (May 31, 2008)

That info is coming from top fragrance supplies. remember, they WANT to selll fo, so if it were safe to add more tey would list a higher number so they in turn could sell more fragrance!


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## Tabitha (May 31, 2008)

1. The benefit of scenting each color a different scent is the oil may turn colors, lets say your coconut turns brown, at least your pinapple will still be a pretty color rather tha the whole thing being muddy.

2. Sounds good to me!

3. Your liability & chances of burning or irritating someone's skin would be out the roof w/ that much fo.


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## Lane (May 31, 2008)

I've only ever used  .8oz ppo... And I have some pretty strong smelling bars... I think three oz may be waaay to much??


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## Guest (May 31, 2008)

Lane said:
			
		

> I've only ever used  .8oz ppo... And I have some pretty strong smelling bars... I think three oz may be waaay to much??


What the hell is wrong with what I'm doing??? I'm wasting fortunes in EOs and FOs!


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## Lane (May 31, 2008)

1 tablespoon equals about .4 oz of FO. I use at tops 4.5 Tablespoons. 2 ounces. (for a two pund batch) Of course, it's better to measure, but I've soaped these oild before and know how they will act... 

What oils are you using? FO brand? Maybe you just got a bunk set of oils?


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## CiCi (May 31, 2008)

I use 1oz ppo. Try anchoring your citrus with patchouli. You can get a small bottle and just use it for that purpose. I understand it makes a beautiful fragrance with orange oil and makes it so that orange oil will stick. Same with lemon. I'm going to try that very soon.  I have also heard that you can anchor scents with corn starch, though I don't know the amount ppo. I was thinking about experimenting with adding some bicarb...but I didn't want to take the chance and have my batch explode :shock:. Anybody know what 1 tsp ppo would do to soap? Any explosions?


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## Guest (May 31, 2008)

Thank you all for the advice. I really need to rethink this. My understanding is not adequate to explaining why my commercial CP soaps smell so aromatic and my own soaps smell faintly to zero.

I'm almost ready to try HP and hand milling because my CP soaps smell faintly or not at all.


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## Tabitha (Jun 1, 2008)

What brands are you using?


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## Soapmaker Man (Jun 1, 2008)

Using reputable suppliers who do not cut their FO's with DPG is the most important factor.  I have never scented over 1 ounce PPO.  I have soaps that are over 2 years old and still smell great.  You can use too much FO, and if you are selling soaps and too much causes irritation in sensitive places, at least you have a customer upset, worse a law suit on your hands.  I have never heard of anyone ever using over 1 ounce of any FO PPO.


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

Tabitha said:
			
		

> What brands are you using?


I've been stuck mostly with what is available in retail stores:

NOW EOs 1 oz
Aura Cacia EOs 0.5 oz
GenWax FOs 4 oz

GenWax is General Wax which is located within easy driving distance from here, in North Hollywood. They are a candle supplier but among their FOs are some that they advertise as "skin safe" and I've been using only those ones. I doubt I'll buy any more FOs from GenWax. They seem very weak and are probably all diluted.

None of my soaps have ever had more than a faint scent at best, now having completed 8 batches. This is driving me nuts.

I've got these Crafter's Choice fragrances arriving tomorrow:

Dreamcicle Fragrance Oil 228                      8 oz
Almond Fragrance Oil 101                          8 oz
Ocean Rain Fragrance Oil 445                      8 oz   
Sweet Orange Essential Oil 716                    32 oz
Lime, Basil, Mandarin Type Fragrance Oil 418      4 oz   
Lime Mint Fragrance Oil 427                       8 oz   
Eucalyptus & Spearmint* Fragrance Oil 453         4 oz
Frankincense & Myrrh Natural EO Blend 594          4 oz

Any comments on my choices above will be welcome.


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## Lane (Jun 1, 2008)

NICE choice of scents! I've never  used any of those form WSP. You'll have to let us all know how they soap!


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

It's good to hear your favorable reaction.  It's very hard to just go down a list and bingo which ones to try, my not having any experience in this area at all. My imagination does not include imagining scents and what they might smell like, so I'm stuck with mostly ideas from using incense and a very few examples of soaps similar to hand made purchased at Whole Foods Market, except I can recall very few of the WFM soap scents that I liked. Usually I just sniff the bars and pick which smells the best.

I'll surely be letting you know how they turn out.


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## reallyrita (Jun 1, 2008)

*Is 3 oz ppo of FO too much?*

Greg: I have been following along on your saga of the fading scents in this and some of your other posts.  I have a suggestion for you before you break the bank on these disappearing acts.  Join The Scent Review (maybe you already have) and spend some fun time perusing their site.  You can get some ideas of good stickers...both EOs and FOS and you will begin to get a sense of some of the suppliers who are at the top of their game.  THEN, you can order one ounce or two ounce trial bottles and play with little one and two ounce batches.  I have found that you get what you pay for....and except for sales and coupons and specials...you need to spend a bit to get the ones that do stick.  Having said that.....I have had great success with some of the Bittercreek North soap scents.  They are very reasonable and they are tenacious.  Some of them are just not complex enough for me, but some of them are now among my standards.  They have a great deal going all the time on a set of one ouncers.  Their web site sucks!  There, I've said it.  After wasting time with it over and over, I now just pick up the phone and call.  They have extremely fast turn around time.  I am always surprised at how fast I get my FOs.
I have several other suppliers that I keep coming back to but I don't want to rant on about how good they are here.  Everyone has their own favs and you just have to branch out and experiment with some of them.

In addition:  keep the bottles tightly closed, in a cool place and out of the light.  I keep mine in a dark cupboard.  Don't soap too hot...that could burn off some of the scent.  I found this out when I used to do M&P. That soap base when melted can be extremely hot.  I discovered that the scents were stronger if I let it cool down a bit instead of adding scent just when melted.  Since our CP soaps can heat up all on their own, this heat thing could be an issue for us as well.

I am going to spend some time this summer working with EOs as I have only really used FOs so far.  I want to explore some new territory here with scent.  I do know from my own limited experience that EO's can lose their strength over time, even when well stored.  I was surprised about this.  Unfortunately, we don't know how old they are when we get them.  I guess that holds true for the FOs as well.  But I think EOs could be more fragile.

Well, so much for this tome......good luck


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

Thanks Rita! Yes I've already joined although I had only one serious 1-2 hour visit there reading a sampling of most of the site. Surely was intending to spend more time there soon.


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## Soapmaker Man (Jun 1, 2008)

Greg, I think you will find WSP FO's to be a far superior to others you have used.  WSP is one of my 3 favorite FO suppliers, never disappointed in their quality.  I use between .8 to max 1 ounce PPO in my recipes using their scents.  Great company.  Debbie May, WSP owner is a great gal!

Paul


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

Well I'll be a lot happier if the scents start coming out better. I've said before that the three big things in soap (in my newbie opinion) are performance, appearance and scent. In fact for me performance has been the easiest, plenty of great recipes out there and easy to create your own. The appearance of my bars is steadily improving, but for me the scent remains the final frontier.

Scent is what attracted me to the "similar to CP" bars sold at Whole Foods Market a dozen years ago. They were a whole bunch different than Dial or Irish Spring, scents that I really liked instead of just "ugh another soap." I won't be satisfied until I can get the scenting as good as the commercial bars.

Anyway my WSP EOs and FOs will be here tomorrow and I have nothing on the calendar this week. 

Got the Select Shades coming in Tuesday too.


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## Tabitha (Jun 1, 2008)

WSP is my FAV supplier!

The Lemon lavender you will smell from across the room, same w/ the euca/spearmint!


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## Guest (Jun 1, 2008)

I'll make a note to try lemon-lavender next time.


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## pepperi27 (Jun 1, 2008)

I've only used aura cacia's essential oils and they are great! I only use peaks, naturesgardencandles, and cierra candles (before they closed  ) fragrances. So far no problems. Sometimes your scent may disappear after the bar is cured but when you wash it, it may come out in the shower? Could that be a possiblity.


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## Guest (Jun 2, 2008)

Well I've decided my 1.5 oz ppo orange isn't such a disaster as I thought. The scent is very mild but at least you notice it a bit.


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## NEASoapWorks (Jun 14, 2008)

*Scents*

When I first started soaping, I experienced some problems with "vanishing" FOs. The Scent Review Board is a start, but a lot is trial and error. I would never go above 1oz per lb of oils. The likelihood of causing skin irritation is very high, and if 1oz per lb (max) won't do it, then I need to find another FO, cuz they cost too much. It's just not cost effective —as a hobby or business.

I've had people rave over an FO at SRB. and I tried it and it bombed. So much affects how a scent will perform — the oil combo, temps, additives, etc.  Best thing to do is buy the smallest bottle available. I don't always take my own advice, but it's still good advice.

Now, I have much more success with FOs. I buy most of mine from Southern Soapers and The Scent Works, with a few from WSP. I've had the most success with Southern Soapers FOs. I'm sure others will have different experiences, based on what and how they soap. Buy from reputable companies, in small amounts and test them.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2008)

I am a huge fan of Brambleberry as probably everyone knows. 
As well as Flickers Fragrances. 

I use WSP not as often as I use to. Tony's have good ones as well.


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## IanT (Jun 14, 2008)

Ive also heard of people using Orris Root powder as a fixative for scents


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## zajanatural (Jun 28, 2008)

I use .7 oz per pound for FOs and even less for EOs.. i use WSP, Daystar,Souther Soapers, Natures Garden, Tonys, and a wide variety of others.  All superior oils that you do not need much of to scent a soap.  The problem with putting too much scent is that some people with MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivity) will have a reaction to the soap since there is a higher concentration than what is supposed to be there.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2008)

BTW I'm not sure that the OP "3 oz ppo" might not be a mistake. That sounds way higher than I've ever tried.

I've been getting by okay on 1 oz ppo these days. Some of the scents aren't very strong but many are fine at that level. I think my initial problems were caused to some degree by using single EOs. I've discovered since then that you should use a blend of 2-3 EOs, you know that high note middle note base note thing.

More recently I've been using FO blends with much better results. My current practice is for a FO I haven't used before I start out at 1 oz ppo. So far I've either disliked the scent and decided to not use that FO again, or the ones that I liked were fine at 1 oz ppo.


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## SoapyGal (Jun 29, 2008)

Lovehound said:
			
		

> BTW I'm not sure that the OP "3 oz ppo" might not be a mistake. That sounds way higher than I've ever tried.
> 
> I've been getting by okay on 1 oz ppo these days. Some of the scents aren't very strong but many are fine at that level. I think my initial problems were caused to some degree by using single EOs. I've discovered since then that you should use a blend of 2-3 EOs, you know that high note middle note base note thing.
> 
> More recently I've been using FO blends with much better results. My current practice is for a FO I haven't used before I start out at 1 oz ppo. So far I've either disliked the scent and decided to not use that FO again, or the ones that I liked were fine at 1 oz ppo.



Greg ~

Where are you learning how to do the EO blending?  I'd like to try, but I don't have a clue where to begin, or what goes with what.... I've seen lots of sites, that recommend, "this goes well with this & that..." , etc, but I really need a "recipe" to go by.... 

....maybe after I do it by recipes for a while, I might have confidence to blend my own...but I'm not comfy doing it that way yet.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2008)

Soapy there was a post right here at SMF about blending EOs. Look for Cathy's site, except I can't remember Cathy's member name. She's got a really good site, very helpful information compiled by her. Good enough that I'd rather send people to her site than have my own.

I'm sure a better answer will come along soon. Cathy?


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