# Liquid soap with NaOH???



## DeeAnna

There's some buzz lately on the liquid soapers facebook group I follow about using NaOH to make LS. 

It's NOT grating bar soap, putting it in water, and hoping for the best. Looks more like following a LS making method but using the appropriate amount of NaOH rather than KOH. 

Wishful thinking? Heresy? Works? 

Here's an online reference that folks are citing ... http://sapuhusid.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/liquid-soap-using-sodium-hydroxide.html

One gal on the LS FB group used this method with her own recipe and claims it worked.


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## Obsidian

Thats really interesting. I wonder what makes it different then letting it turn into a bar before dissolving it in water. I might have to try this, it would be a way to get around not having KOH on hand.


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## DeeAnna

I found two other bloggers who did something similar. On claims success, and the other thinks it's a variation on the old grated bar soap theme. I'm really a bit skeptical about this, but it's an interesting idea. Some folks in the UK say it's hard to get KOH so an NaOH version of LS would be of benefit to them.

https://lindercroft.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/homemade-liquid-soap-a-naoh-version/

http://littlehouseinthesuburbs.com/2009/03/homemade-liquid-soap.html


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## claryza

Now im interested


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## Dorymae

Ugh.... Irishlass, come in pleasee..... Irishlass, if you read this - what do you think?  Have you tried it?  Would you try it?  I'd be more apt to believe you than someone somewhere else.


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## Susie

Yeah, me too.  I am really scared to use someone else's recipe without double checking it on a calculator, but if it is lye heavy, I know how to fix it.  Will let you know some time this afternoon.

Enablers...you are all evil enablers...:-D


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## DeeAnna

I haven't tried it either so I make no claims about the idea. Have yet to check The Dish to see the opinions there.


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## Obsidian

I'd really like to hear how it is after a couple weeks of sitting, will it get thick and gooey? I've grated castile soap and dissolved it, it works pretty good and it doesn't seem to get as snotty as regular bath soap when its liquified.


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## Saponista

I am sceptical too, I still worry it would have that snot consistency of diluted grated bar soap. Really interested to hear from someone who has tried it.


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## Susie

OK, well, trace reached.  I used the following recipe, so someone might want to try the other one:

2.5 oz NaOH
8 oz H2O
5 oz CO
1 oz Castor Oil
11 oz Veg. Shortening(thank goodness I used the last of that!)

I wrapped it up in a towel and set it aside.  I doubt I will wait 24 hours, but I will wait for gel(and check for zap) before diluting.  Traced like CP bar soap.  No issues.  

Will update when I dilute.


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## DeeAnna

Wowser, Susie ... that was FAST!!! Leaving soon to visit friends, so no soaping for me today, unfortunately.


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## Susie

I made laundry soap/dish soap yesterday, so I had all the equipment still out and handy.  It just made sense to try it now.


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## Saponista

Is it hard like a cp bar?


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## Susie

Yes, but it is zapless.  So I am starting dilution.


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## Lion Of Judah

DeeAnna said:


> I haven't tried it either so I make no claims about the idea. Have yet to check The Dish to see the opinions there.



I respect your voice of reason ...... i would have to try it on a small scale to see if it's really viable. i personally never made LS of any sort before so i will follow this closely .


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## Susie

I would NOT wait 24 hours to start dilution.  I let mine sit ~5 hours before starting dilution, and I have it back to gel(it was hard and opaque), so this is not going badly right now.  Just got the bottom turned over and it all into chunks.  Will keep y'all updated.

ETA-Have added 28 oz water.  Very loose gel paste, not really diluting yet. 4:43pm EDT.

5:45pm EDT-Was boiling out of the crock pot.  Stirred down, and added 12 oz water based on skin on top and additional globs left.  Definitely soap, as it lathered and acted just like my normal KOH liquid soap does under the same conditions.  Globs are clear gel, which is surprising due to the use of the shortening.

6:12pm EDT-Added 4 oz hot H2O, turned pot to high for a few minutes.  Have 4 ~1oz globs left. 

6:30pm EDT-2 small globs soap gel left.  Unplugged and wrapped towel around pot.  Will check in AM to determine consistency.

7:45pm EDT-Some skin noted on top, globs still present.  Added 4 oz boiling water.  Re-wrapped.


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## RhondaJ

Just a thought here....it may be easier to do this HP - as soon as the soap is fully gelled and zapless start diluting while still warm and reasonably fluid? 

Hmmmm, I may give it a shot this evening. Hubby is working all evening, nothing else to do but soap


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## Susie

Yes, I would.  Just be sure you give it the extra water it calls for at the start.  I really do think they are on to something there.  I am using my last post as my notes, as I am doing other things on the computer at the same time.


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## Melodyuk

I did come across that blog few days ago. I tried, but when I let it set it broke my pyrex jug :cry:. I will try again maybe day after tomorrow.

@Susie...how is the consistency? not snot like I hope.


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## Susie

Not snot tonight.  Have liquid soap.  I will let you know in the morning what we end up with.  

Never use glass or Pyrex to soap in.  Bad things happen like etchings and breakage.  Use plastic with the 2 or 5 in the triangle, stainless steel, or crock pots.


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## Obsidian

I wonder if you could bring it to really thick trace then start diluting it before it starts to set up or would that mess with the saponification.


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## Susie

It got to typical CP trace.  When it reached enough of a trace to hold a drop pattern(as the directions said), I stopped SBing.  I did wrap it up and gave it 5 hours, where it had gone through gel and had become a hard, zapless disc of soap.  There was no give when I poked it with my finger.  I would definitely not wait a whole 24 hours to start dilution.  When I make it over again, I am going to try to catch it right at gel, and start dilution with boiling water then.  I will probably leave the crock pot cooking to decrease the time.


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## RhondaJ

I have a small batch in the crock pot cooking as I type...I couldn't use the recipes posted on the blogs because I have no shortening or corn oil!!

So I said what the heck...threw caution to the wind and came up with my own recipe, using just Castor, CO, and lard

HP Method for this one - getting it just to gel and will start dilution while gel is still "fluid"

12.6 oz H2O
2.45 oz NaOH ( used a 2% superfat )
2 oz castor oil
3 oz coconut oil
12 oz lard

I wanted to use the posted recipes, but then I decided since I didn't have some of the oils used I'd just give it a whirl and see how it worked with other recipes  I'll keep you all posted.

10:00 PM : Added 24 oz boiling water to crock pot, broke up the big chunk o' paste into smaller chunks. Will see how it is in an hour or so.


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## biarine

Exciting if the result is good, can't wait


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## DeeAnna

I think the proof of the pudding is how this soap behaves with time. The "grate up the bar of soap and add water" liquid soap gets gloppy after it sits for awhile. Not sure what "awhile" is -- I suppose it will depend on the blend of fatty acids in a particular soap. 

What's happening is the soap molecules want to align themselves in a way that makes them as "electrically comfortable" as possible. So they start to form long chains and balls and flat sheets of soap molecules -- and this, to us humans, is the ropy, gluey "snot" texture we all love to hate. The sodium soaps are really good at this ... the potassium soaps not nearly as much. 

If this works, the only thing I can think of is the method of diluting the fresh soap is interfering with this alignment process. There's nothing else in the process that is all that different than regular CP or HP soap making.


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## Susie

Yes, it is exciting!! 

However, my trying to explain how exciting it is to people has resulted in 3 sets of glazed eyes and 2 vague pats on the hand with 3 people wandering away while I was stirring soap...

It is great to have people who understand and can be excited with me!!!


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## Susie

Yep, DeeAnna, that is why mine is going to live in the crockpot until I know if it will be snotty or not.


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## RhondaJ

Susie said:


> Yes, it is exciting!!
> 
> However, my trying to explain how exciting it is to people has resulted in 3 sets of glazed eyes and 2 vague pats on the hand with 3 people wandering away while I was stirring soap...
> 
> It is great to have people who understand and can be excited with me!!!



This is why I decided to do this tonight while hubby was working late lol 

The glazed over eyes and the subtle shake of his head that I just know is a silent version "bless her heart, she's done lost her mind" 

He just doesn't get WHY I get excited over soap lol


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## DeeAnna

I think we all are used to getting the "Well, bless her heart!!" reactions from non-soaping family and friends. (I lifted that comment from another recent thread -- seems so appropriate here too!)

When I was a kid, my mom and dad were good friends with another couple. The wife was famously fond of saying, "Well, myyyyy laaaannnnd!" and it meant about the same thing.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

DeeAnna said:


> I think we all are used to getting the "Well, bless her heart!!" reactions from non-soaping family and friends. (I lifted that comment from another recent thread -- seems so appropriate here too!)
> 
> When I was a kid, my mom and dad were good friends with another couple. The wife was famously fond of saying, "Well, myyyyy laaaannnnd!" and it meant about the same thing.




Well now this all looks jolly interesting. I have KOH, of course, but the steps required for making liquid soap meant that I haven't gotten round to it yet.

Eta - those who are testing, what sf level are you using?


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## Susie

I used the recipe "as-is" without running it through a lye calculator.(scary, i know)  But, when I ran the numbers through the calculator just now, it shows 3.6%.

It is still liquid soap.  No snotty texture yet.

As for the "steps required for making liquid soap meant I haven't gotten round to it yet", you have read the tutorial on CP Liquid Soap, right?  How is that any more complicated than CP bar soap?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Susie said:


> .................As for the "steps required for making liquid soap meant I haven't gotten round to it yet", you have read the tutorial on CP Liquid Soap, right? How is that any more complicated than CP bar soap?


 
I just had another read of it - it's not as complicated as I first thought, but it's still new.  I don't like change :-D


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## Susie

You'll be fine.   Brand new soapers have successfully made liquid soap with that method.  You just need to be brave and go for it! :grin:

You do realize we are all waiting for you to say you made it...right?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

In fairness, I should really do both version if I want to really be sure of what is going on.  Oh, this should be called Soap Making Enablers.....................


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## Susie

Enabling, co-dependency, and peer pressure, the list could go on and on...

I will say that had I not had so much experience making KOH liquid soap, I would not have been as comfortable not following the directions to the letter.  That is part of the reason I used the forum for my notes, so anyone else trying this could have that step-by-step description of what this recipe went through for comparison.  It also saves them some time by letting them start dilution earlier(and maybe making it easier to dilute).


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## DeeAnna

If you can do HP and CP soap, you can do LS. Really. It's not that hard. There are some things that are different, sure, but that's true of the CP and HP methods as well. 

"...I should really do both version..."

Do you mean (ver 1) neutralized lye-heavy LS vs. (ver 2) no-neutralization, low superfat LS? If so, don't bother with (ver 1). Honestly.


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## Susie

I think he means CP KOH LS vs HP NaOH LS.  Hopefully, anyway.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Fear not, fair maidens - I do mean the CP LS method and then the NaOH method.  As I need KOH for shaving soaps anyway, making LS with NaOH is not really a requirement though, so I think I just need to take a deep breath and get it sorted.


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## RhondaJ

I diluted mine with a total of 36 oz of H2O last night, stirred it all up and put it to bed ....this morning, it's cooled and one giant, gelatinous glob! 

The way it looks I'm thinking it just needed more water, WAY more water, so I'm going to boil some water, turn the crock back on and see what happens throughout the day


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## Susie

Mine is a different recipe, and that makes a huge difference in the amount of dilution water required, but I used 48 oz water.  And I debated on adding more last night.  I am glad I didn't, though.

ETA-Yep...One crock pot full of snot.  No liquid layer underneath.  Just gelatin consistency with firmer borders.  Stirred together as best as possible.  I may see if I can SB this into some sort of gel consistency.


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## RhondaJ

Susie said:


> Mine is a different recipe, and that makes a huge difference in the amount of dilution water required, but I used 48 oz water.  And I debated on adding more last night.  I am glad I didn't, though.
> 
> ETA-Yep...One crock pot full of snot.  No liquid layer underneath.  Just gelatin consistency with firmer borders.  Stirred together as best as possible.  I may see if I can SB this into some sort of gel consistency.



I just added another 10oz, which brings me up to 46 oz total so far for dilution. I know I'm going to have to add a bit more, but I don't want to add too much at one time. 

I had such high hopes last night, it was a beautiful, clear soap when I went to bed with just a thin layer of undissolved soap and bubbles on top. ::sigh::


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## Susie

OK, ended up using my hand mixer to blend the harder bits into the rest.  Ended up with what looks like soft peak meringue.  Washed my hands with some, it has an...interesting consistency on the fingers.  Washes well, though.  Could use a bit more lather, but time might help with that.

ETA-If this consistency is stable, it might be great for someone who uses shower gel.  I tried it with a pouf, and got LOTS of lather/bubbles.  Time will tell, but I wonder how to package this.


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## RhondaJ

After turning the crock back on and adding the water, within 15 minutes it was liquid again. No chunks at all. Going to let it cool again and see what happens. If it's a gelatinous mess again I'm not sure if I'll try whipping it with the mixer or add more water just to see how much it takes to really get this to hold it's liquid form.


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## RhondaJ

> Time will tell, but I wonder how to package this.



Wide mouth jars maybe if it's stiff enough?


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## Susie

I have a family member that uses shower gel from those large bottles with narrow necks due to arthritis(don't ask me why that works for her).  I am wondering how to get this stuff in there without losing that consistency.


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## Obsidian

Would a frosting bag with a long tip work to pipe it in?


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## allane

How about adding a few ounces of KOH to the recipe to see if it will make any change in the recipe? I would have tried if I had any KOH

Allane


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## Susie

Obsidian said:


> Would a frosting bag with a long tip work to pipe it in?



That's a great idea.  Let me let this sit a bit to be sure it is not going to become some other texture, and I will try it.  I need to ask her to save me an empty bottle or two.


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## RhondaJ

Well it's back to snot again, as soon as it cools it's snot. I can not believe this is actually working for liquid soap unless it's the consistency of water in the end.


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## Susie

Mine is...odd.  Not snot.  Still holding the shape it was, but hardening underneath the top.  

I am going to classify this whole NaOH Liquid Soap thing as a *Myth*.


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## Obsidian

Susie, I bet if you plopped your whipped soap into a slab mold and let it dry forever, you'll eventually be able to slice it into floating bars. 

I had a jar of "liquid" soap made from a bar sitting under my sink for well over a year. Took it out the other day to dispose of it and it was the consistency of snotty jello. I couldn't get any water stirred into, ended up having to flush it down the toilet.

The liquid soap I made with a bar of castile is surprisingly, still fluid. Its thick and slightly slimy but not snotty and lathers nice with a bath poof. This is the only way I can actually use castile as I hate the slimy bars.


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## RhondaJ

It's now completely cooled and is the consistency of a very firm gelatin. 

I just don't know where to go from here. I guess I'll just keep adding water and see what happens. I definitely call this experiment a fail and just can't see how anyone is getting a usable liquid soap this way. I'm thinking that by the time I've added enough water to make it stay liquid there's going to be very little "soap" left in it!


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## Susie

Obsidian said:


> Susie, I bet if you plopped your whipped soap into a slab mold and let it dry forever, you'll eventually be able to slice it into floating bars.



I may just try that.  Seems like that is all it will be good for.  Hunting a box to make a slab mold.


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## DawninWA

Obsidian said:


> The liquid soap I made with a bar of castile is surprisingly, still fluid. Its thick and slightly slimy but not snotty and lathers nice with a bath poof. This is the only way I can actually use castile as I hate the slimy bars.



My castile bar soap liquefies very well.  Turns out I don't like it as bar soap, and won't give it away because it is so gross (slimy), and I made 2 batches, so this solution is perfect.  No snot.  I love the convenience of it because I can keep it in bars until I need more liquid soap, then fragrance it differently each time if I want to.


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## DeeAnna

So what I'm hearing is that "NaOH soap made like a LS" kind of liquid soap, even when made by people who are competent liquid soapers, isn't any better than the usual "grate a bar of soap and add water" kind of liquid soap. 

Ugh. I regret bringing this up -- I'm sorry, folks. 

The one possible bright spot in this story may be the 100% olive oil NaOH soap when made into a liquid soap? Obsidian and Dawn -- Assuming a well cured bar, about how much dilution do you use to properly liquify the olive-oil soap to a nice thickness, if you don't mind sharing your experience? I have some OO bar soap around somewhere -- I will try it too.


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## Susie

Don't you dare be sorry for bringing it up!  It was a good learning experience!  And if it had worked, it would have revolutionized liquid soapmaking.  This is how we learn.  It was not a failure in any sense of the word.  It is just ruling out one possibility.


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## DeeAnna

Yes, ma'am!!!!


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## RhondaJ

Absolutely no need to be sorry, it was fun to try it


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## Lion Of Judah

DeeAnna said:


> So what I'm hearing is that "NaOH soap made like a LS" kind of liquid soap, even when made by people who are competent liquid soapers, isn't any better than the usual "grate a bar of soap and add water" kind of liquid soap.
> 
> Ugh. I regret bringing this up -- I'm sorry, folks.
> 
> The one possible bright spot in this story may be the 100% olive oil NaOH soap when made into a liquid soap? Obsidian and Dawn -- Assuming a well cured bar, about how much dilution do you use to properly liquify the olive-oil soap to a nice thickness, if you don't mind sharing your experience? I have some OO bar soap around somewhere -- I will try it too.



Question : so you guys are saying that no amount of "diluting " will 1. make it fluid enough and 2. take care of that "snot" texture?

DeeAnna : you are one of our most if not the most go to person on here , and as well as one of few persons that gives technical reasoning behind her answers . you do not in the slightest have anything to be sorry about , you question/topic bought us together collectively to hash out a theory / or an idea . now even if we have not seen the light of it being plausible it does not in any way shape or form requires an apology for putting it forward  ,  the craft benefits from people like you that look for ways to take it to the next level ........ i will say no more  

caribbean proverb : "each one teach one and together we learn"


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## DawninWA

DeeAnna said:


> So what I'm hearing is that "NaOH soap made like a LS" kind of liquid soap, even when made by people who are competent liquid soapers, isn't any better than the usual "grate a bar of soap and add water" kind of liquid soap.
> 
> Ugh. I regret bringing this up -- I'm sorry, folks.
> 
> The one possible bright spot in this story may be the 100% olive oil NaOH soap when made into a liquid soap? Obsidian and Dawn -- Assuming a well cured bar, about how much dilution do you use to properly liquify the olive-oil soap to a nice thickness, if you don't mind sharing your experience? I have some OO bar soap around somewhere -- I will try it too.



I have a theory that the snot texture comes from the saturated fats.  Coconut and Palm.  I've tried palm/coconut/olive bars and coconut/olive bars with the same (snotty) results.  

I don't measure really.  I believe a 4 oz bar usually makes 16 oz of liquid soap.  I don't like it really thick, but it's thick enough to use with pump bottles.


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## Obsidian

I didn't measure that water I added but if I had to guess, it was around 2 cups to a 4-5 ounce bar of soap. At first it turned into a giant clear glob of snotty slime but that eventually diluted down into a nice thick texture. After I get it bottled, if it seems a bit too thick, I'll add in another ounce or so of water.
I used a 1.5 year old bar, grated really fine. It takes scent well too, better then regular LS.


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## DeeAnna

A member of a Facebook liquid soapmaking groups reports the LS she made with NaOH is beginning to solidify a month after it was made. Unfortunately I'm not sure what her recipe is. I thought it was interesting that it took a fair amount of time before this particular NaOH soap showed it's usual behavior of wanting to firm up.


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## Susie

I have been following that conversation, and I was wondering how long it would take.  There may be some magic ingredient/time/process combination that works, but I don't think anyone is even close to solving it with anything we have seen thus far.


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## Seawolfe

I hab developed a vey seekrit recipe to make crystal clear liquid soap from scratch that is pH 7 using seekrit ingredients you may already have. Just send me 14 dollars in unmarked bills and I will share this amazing seekrit with you.


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## pamielynn

Seawolfe, you want non-sequential bills? I'll meet you in the back alley to get those "seekrit ingrdientz"


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## Seawolfe

Yes no sequenced. I will be the one dressed like a ninja, you will know me by the stickblender I carry.


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## Susie

LOL, I love it!


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## DeeAnna

Here are my latest adventures related to this topic -- 

I used a bar of my superlye castile to replicate Dawn's NaOH liquid soap. I grated the bar, added distilled water, warmed the mess gently in the microwave, and stirred to dissolve. 

The dilution I needed to get a honey-thick consistency at room temperature was 9 or 10 parts water to 1 part grated soap. I gradually worked up to that amount of water. At a ratio of 2 parts water to 1 part soap, the product was like clear golden Jello (gelatine). The texture gradually became softer and more gooey, but remained a non-pourable goopy gel-like stuff as I added more and more water. Right at 9-10 parts water to soap, the texture shifted from a not-very-easy-to-pour gel to a pourable liquid.

At a pourable consistency, the lather is creamy as I would expect from a castile but the product makes a below average amount of suds. One issue that causes the low lather is the nature of castile -- the oleic acid in olive oil naturally doesn't form a lot of suds. The other issue is the diluted product contains only 9% to 10% actual soap for this product. Irish Lass' liquid soap recipe results in about 38% actual soap in the LS when diluted per her instructions. 

I've used the NaOH castile LS twice now as a shampoo. Both times, the lather on first wash was minimal and left my hair feeling rough after I rinsed out the soap. On second wash, the soap lathered better and my hair felt soft after a good rinse. I don't normally lather twice, but this soap seems to need that to perform as well as possible.

I will set a sample aside to sit for a month or so and see what it's like after that time.


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## DeeAnna

Tentatively, I'm inclined to agree with Dawn -- a decent NaOH liquid soap may be possible if you carefully minimize certain fatty acids. I honestly don't think HOW the soap is made makes any difference -- do a CP or HP bar soap method or a LS method; it doesn't make a "hill o' beans" difference to the outcome.

Dawn and I are reporting good luck with olive oil soap. According to Soapcalc, olive is 17% stearic+palmitic, 83% oleic+linoleic. Dawn reported bad results with palm/coconut/olive and coconut/olive recipes. Susie has had bad luck with vegetable shortening/CO/castor. Rhonda has had bad results from lard/CO/castor. Today, someone on Facebook showed a successful NaOH LS made with coconut/olive/canola she made this past February.

My best guess is that large amounts of stearic and palmitic acids will be a big problem with an NaOH liquid soap. Lauric and myristic acids might be okay in moderate doses. Oleic and linoleic acids are probably the safest. My next post will explain more about why I think this -- bear with me for now. Since we don't generally soap with fatty acids, we need to identify the fats that provide fatty acids that may work best in an NaOH LS.

Lauric and myristic acids come from coconut oil, babassu, and palm kernel oil, but these fats also provide a dab of palmitic and stearic acids. That may be why a recipe with these fats may or may not work well.

Oleic acid comes from fats such as olive, sweet almond, and avocado. Linoleic acid comes from fats like sunflower, safflower, corn, canola, etc. 

Fats to definitely avoid would be ones such as tallow, palm, lard, and butters because they are very high in palmitic and stearic acids.


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## DeeAnna

I was doing some reading in the book "Soaps and Proteins" by Martin Fischer, published 1921, as I was thinking about this topic.

You know how you all were having to add amazing amounts of water to your NaOH soaps to get them to form a pourable liquid? 

It turns out Fischer was intrigued by this very thing. He did some experiments looking at how much water can be absorbed by a pure soap (a soap made with just one fatty acid) before it turned from a non-pourable gel into a pourable liquid. 

He reported that he had to add a whopping 88 grams of water to 1 gram of pure sodium stearate (soap made with stearic acid) before the soap finally started to turn from a gel to a liquid. 

Sodium palmitate absorbed 72 grams of water, sodium myristate absorbed 48 grams, and sodium laurate soaked up just 18 grams. 

Susie and Rhonda added ridiculous amounts of water to the soaps they made for this thread, and still had trouble with the soaps not staying fluid. Since their soaps were made with CO (mostly myristic, lauric), castor (ricinoleic), and veg shortening/lard (mostly palmitic, stearic), their findings are similar to Fischer's. 

By contrast, sodium oleate (soap made with oleic acid) and sodium linolate (soap from linoleic acid) absorbed a mere 3 grams of water per gram of soap before these soaps started to turn into pourable liquids. 

edit: That may be why Dawn and I are seeing reasonable results by turning our NaOH olive oil soap bars into LS -- olive is mostly oleic acid. Dawn said (speaking here from memory) that she diluted 1 part soap with 4 parts water. That is pretty darn close to Fischer's 3:1 dilution. I diluted 1 part soap with 9-10 parts water which is much higher rate of dilution. Maybe my olive oil had a higher % of stearic and palmitic than Dawn's? Not sure, since I can't analyze the fatty acid content of a fat. roblem:

Fischer's results seem to reinforce our results and my guesses about what fats may work best for an NaOH liquid soap.


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## DeeAnna

Many folks seem to be eager to jump on the NaOH LS bandwagon, but I have to say I'm growing even more lukewarm about the idea now that I'm starting to see a pattern emerging. I can see some advantages:

You can make liquid soap without using KOH. This can be good if you can't get KOH due to legal and practical restrictions.
You can easily convert a suitable bar soap into LS, so you can make two products from one recipe.

But I can see disadvantages:

Fats that make a non-snotty NaOH LS are limited -- tentatively you would need to use mostly liquid fats with perhaps a small amount of coconut or PKO. 
The amount of water needed to dilute a suitable NaOH soap into a pourable liquid is very large, so the finished soap may not lather or clean well simply because there's a lot of water and not much soap.
If large amounts of liquid fats are used to make this type of soap, the soap may not lather well and may become rancid quickly due to the high % of unsaturated fats in the recipe.
This type of soap may not give super reliable results because it appears to be sensitive to the fatty acid composition. We can't see or measure these chemicals in our fats and the composition of any fat is variable. This means we can't be certain we've got the right blend of fats to make a non-snotty soap.


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## Susie

I am interested to see what you get at a month with that experiment.  However, I sort of wondered if the percentage of water in the grated soap/liquid soap would negatively impact the lather and performance.  So, at least I now know I was not completely thinking the wrong thing.


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## DeeAnna

"...I sort of wondered if the percentage of water in the grated soap/liquid soap would negatively impact the lather and performance. So, at least I now know I was not completely thinking the wrong thing. ..."

You're spot-on right to think this, Susie. Even with the olive oil soap, the large amount of dilution needed to get to a thick but pourable consistency is a problem.


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## Dorymae

I wonder what would happen if you mixed a surfactant in the dilution water. Something like slsa?  Do you think it would help with the lather?


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## DeeAnna

It certainly might, Dorymae. Many commercial products are mixtures of true soaps and non-soap detergents, so it seems likely that your idea would work. But I'm thinking that I would not be eager to fix an NaOH liquid soap that doesn't clean or lather well by adding a syndet. Instead, I might want to make the recipe with KOH and add a syndet to the KOH soap to tweak it if I wanted to. That way I'd be adding the syndet to enhance an already good product rather than using the syndet to prop up a less-than-stellar product. Just my quick reaction to the idea, but it's just my opinion ... maybe you see it differently?


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## DawninWA

The last batch I made I got distracted while grating and forgot how much soap I used.  I ended up putting the grated soap in a 1 quart mason jar, it filled up half the jar, and I filled the jar to the top with water.  This resulted in very thick but pourable soap.  Diluted a little more (half again was too much) worked well.  The resulting liquid soap doesn't lather as much as a soap with coconut oil or detergents, but still seems to lather better than the castile bar soap.  I wonder what effect castor oil would have.  I had the same results with washing hair.  First lather produced very few suds.  Second made lots of them.   

Some other things, in case you were curious.  My bars are superfatted at 5%.  If I dilute the soap too much, the extra oil separates a little after a few days.  If I keep it thick, it doesn't.  I use tap water for making my soap and diluting it.  We have "moderately hard" water here, according to the charts.  I don't know if this makes a difference, but it seems like it would.  And my bars were all made last May/June.  I've had the same results diluting them after a month or several months.  

I'm actually not convinced that you can't liquefy a coconut oil bar, as I have, in the past, liquefied both a kirks coco-castile bar (coconut is the only oil) and a jr liggetts shampoo bar (olive, coconut, castor).  I kept these very liquidy, much like liquid dr bronners soap.  They performed about the same too, suds-wise.  But when I attempted a coconut/olive bar I made, it turned to snot.  I'm pretty sure that that is the batch I accidentally dumped a half an ounce of orange eo into (little dropper part was missing, oops), so I may try that one again.  Dr bronners bar soap, Mrs Meyers, all of my bars with palm oil, and my coconut/olive/mostly lard laundry bar all DO NOT liquefy well.


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## DeeAnna

I did the same thing with my bar of olive oil soap -- grated it, put it into a quart jar, and filled the jar with distilled water. Heated gently, stirred until all dissolved, and let cool. I can turn this jar upside down, shake it, and nothing will remotely pour -- it has the texture and firmness of Jello. I guess our different experiences all goes back to that all-purpose saying -- YMMV!


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## DeeAnna

Update about the liquid soap I described in Posts 68 and 69 -- it's been over 10 days now. The diluted soap is gradually changing from a smooth honey consistency into a lumpy gel. The overall thickness is about the same, but the texture is less appealing -- I don't like lumpy liquid soap any more than I like lumpy gravy. :thumbdown: The lather is, if anything, even poorer now than when first made -- I only see traces of suds when I lather it up with my hands and almost no suds when I use the soap on a washcloth. Again, I think this is due to the low-sudsing nature of 100% olive oil soap and due to the small % of actual soap in the diluted product (only about 10% soap). 

My verdict as a bath and hand soap: Unacceptable. 

The results from making liquid soap from an all-NaOH recipe seem to be really variable, and the success or failure doesn't seem to be linked to any particular blend of fats or any given technique. I'll continue to keep an open mind about the idea, but so far, this method is a major bust -- it's not a reliable way to make liquid soap.


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## Obsidian

My 100% castile bar soap dissolved into liquid stayed fluid but it did get a little snottier as time went on. I got the same lower lather results as deeanna and since I dislike castile anyways, I tossed mine.


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## DeeAnna

I think I will use at least some of mine for wet-fiber felting, a new craft I'm learning about lately. 

My interest in this started when I tried to felt some of my bar soaps, but I didn't have the best of results. The half dozen bars I felted took forever and the results were really frustrating, but I could see how it could be really pretty so I got stubborn and decided to learn more. 

I signed up for a class to learn more about wet-felting from a local gal who is a wizard at this thing. I figured at the very least, I might finally learn how to felt those doggone soaps with better results. We started by laying out a flat mat of loose wool on a plastic-covered table, and then the instructor had us spritz the mat of wool with a mild, low sudsing, alkaline soap before starting the felting process. She explained the soap would help the felting go faster by opening up the cuticles of the wool fibers so they can interlock easier. 

Bingo -- the light dawned after I made this olive oil soap gel. I think it might be perfect for felting -- an olive oil soap naturally has a higher pH than soaps made with other fats and the low lather is certainly a plus! And the lumpy gel texture is no big deal.


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## FGOriold

DeeAnna - not that this is related to liquid soap, but if you are wet felting over bar soap, you really do not need any additional soap. I just allow the soap from the bar come through and it works wonderfully.


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## DeeAnna

Yes, I agree, Faith. I wasn't being too clear -- I meant that I'd use the olive oil soap gel for other wet felted projects. I don't use any extra soap when wet felting over a bar of soap either.

I just did three more felted bars last night -- that's all I have patience for at one sitting. I am finding that "practice makes better", as a friend says. I had mounds of lather on my hands from the bar itself as I felted the wool. I thought the lather actually slowed down the felting a bit, but a gentle rinse every so often solved that problem well enough.


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## FGOriold

Got it DeeAnna - yes excellent use of the olive oil soap gel you have. I love felting soap, it is a great way to utilize bars that just don't look the way you wanted them to and you can do some amazing designs needle felting them afterwards. I call it giving those bars a "makeover" or a new life since they are still awesome bars of soap.


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## DeeAnna

Update on the "liquid soap" I made on 4/6/2015: 

It's been over a month now since I grated a bar of my "superlye" olive-oil soap and diluted it to a thick pourable consistency with distilled water. About 10 days after making, it had turned into an unattractive lumpy gel. As of today, the lumpiness is gone and the texture is again smooth, but the diluted soap is no longer pourable. It has become a soft gel that holds its shape when I gently shake a bit out of its container into my hand. When I work the gel with my fingers, the soap forms long snotty strings as I pull my fingers away from the mass of soap in my palm. The lather has actually improved a bit in the past month -- the soap now forms a barely acceptable layer of thin creamy suds when I wash my hands with it. 

My verdict as a bath and hand soap: Still unacceptable. I'm ending this experiment.

One interesting observation from this experiment: Many new soapers think curing is pretty much about evaporating excess water, and the faster they can get the water evaporated, the better. Although I agree that evaporating excess water is part of curing a bar soap, I'm even more convinced after this little experiment that evaporation is not the ONLY aspect of curing. This NaOH soap went through distinct changes in physical structure and lathering ability over the past month, even though it was diluted into a liquid-y product and stored in a container that prevents evaporation.


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## PattiJ

*Liquid Soap with NaOH*

The recipe that I saw had 1 oz. of alcohol ( vodka) added at dilution and then was cooked for another half hour to allow the soap to clarify. Did anyone use alcohol at dilution? Wouldn't that help in liquefying the soap?


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## Susie

Alcohol is used as a clarifying agent to help settle unwanted solids so that you can get perfectly clear soap.  Not so much for dilution.


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## liquidsoaplady

I use a combination of 75% KOH and 25% NaOH, gives the liquid soap a better lasing foam, and if you add some potassium carbonate (pearl ash), it adds to the detergency, foaming capabilities and clarity of the soap. Makes a great foaming bubble bath..........let me know if you would like more information and I can walk you through the steps. 
Thanks!
 Lisa


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## Susie

Here's the link to the thread Liquidsoaplady was kind enough to post her recipe and process on:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=518331#post518331


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## DeeAnna

Absolutely THE LAST update on the "liquid soap" I made on 4/6/2015: 

I said I was quitting, but here I am again giving yet another report a month later. After writing up my last installment of this saga, I left the last few tablespoons of LS in its pump bottle and pretty much forgot about it. I was cleaning up the shower a few days ago, and I thought I'd better get rid of the bottle and the remains of the soap. I picked up the bottle, absentmindedly gave it a shake, and was surprised to see the formerly thick soap is now as thin as water. Go figure.....

Okay, this is it. I threw the stuff away. No more. I give up. Finis......!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Sounds like a good idea!


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## penelopejane

Susie said:


> Yes, it is exciting!!
> 
> However, my trying to explain how exciting it is to people has resulted in 3 sets of glazed eyes and 2 vague pats on the hand with 3 people wandering away while I was stirring soap...
> 
> It is great to have people who understand and can be excited with me!!!




Oh I know this feeling so well and I've only been soaping for a few weeks! [emoji2]


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## Arimara

This thread ought to be stickied. It has a wealth of information that can save soaping newbies time and heartache. It surely crossed my mind to make liquid soap and I would have tried to use NaOH.


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## Susie

If you think this thread is full of wonderful info, read this one:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114


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## DawninWA

DeeAnna said:


> Absolutely THE LAST update on the "liquid soap" I made on 4/6/2015:
> 
> I said I was quitting, but here I am again giving yet another report a month later. After writing up my last installment of this saga, I left the last few tablespoons of LS in its pump bottle and pretty much forgot about it. I was cleaning up the shower a few days ago, and I thought I'd better get rid of the bottle and the remains of the soap. I picked up the bottle, absentmindedly gave it a shake, and was surprised to see the formerly thick soap is now as thin as water. Go figure.....
> 
> Okay, this is it. I threw the stuff away. No more. I give up. Finis......!



I still wonder what the difference was between your soap and mine.  Mine is still consistently nice liquid soap with appropriate suds.  It lasts forever and doesn't get weird.  What you got seems to be what happens when I try and liquefy soap with palm oil or lard.

I recently made more with soap from another batch, and it was still perfect.  But it was the same recipe as before.  

Oh, well, probably something in the water or the air, soap is finicky .


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## Arimara

Susie said:


> If you think this thread is full of wonderful info, read this one:
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114



What can I say? I like to read people's studies. Many of the best lessons come from mistakes and trial-and-error, be it our own or others.


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## DeeAnna

Dawn -- It's great your LS is working well for you. I can't argue with your success! 

Unfortunately, the failures people are having with this method far outnumber their successes. And when a person does have a successful batch, then next batch may be a failure. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the results.


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## Wildcraft_Garden

Arimara said:


> This thread ought to be stickied. It has a wealth of information that can save soaping newbies time and heartache. It surely crossed my mind to make liquid soap and I would have tried to use NaOH.



So true! I found it super helpful. Thanks everyone.


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## linne1gi

I wonder about mold and bacteria growing with that much water added and no preservative. Also I second the no Pyrex. Even the older Borosilicate Pyrex will eventually break/shatter with continued lye use. The lye etches the glass. Use stainless or #2/#5 plastic.


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## DeeAnna

Good points, Linne. In this 3-year-old thread, however, we were discussing whether a person might be able to use NaOH soap to make a stable liquid soap. The overall consensus is that it's not a good method. In the intervening years, I have to say my opinion on this matter hasn't changed.

Discussing equipment and preservative safety would be better done in a new thread with that as the subject line. You'll get more responses and more interest that way rather than burying your comments in this discussion.

Please start a new thread and get folks talking about this!


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