# Do short shelf life oils make short shelf life soaps?



## Alg587 (Nov 18, 2017)

I have been using flax, hemp and sunflower in low quantities for my cold process soap. Will that make the bars have a short shelf life once it’s cured? I searched all over the internet and couldn’t get a clear answer.


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## Kittish (Nov 18, 2017)

Alas, there isn't really a cut and dry clear answer. The best anyone can do is 'maybe'. There are a lot of factors that come into play regarding shelf life and causes of DOS and rancidity, oil composition is only one of them.


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## SaltedFig (Nov 18, 2017)

In low quantities (not sure how low you are talking), as long as the oils are reasonably fresh and kept well, you shouldn't see any difference in the longevity of your final soap.

Obviously there are many other considerations, but in general low volumes means less trouble.

I have been making batches of soap with hemp seed oil again over the last few years (after a gap while it was hard to get) at a usage rate under 10%. All of the testers from these batches are in excellent condition, so I would vouch for good quality hemp seed oil in soap at low usage rates.


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## Alg587 (Nov 18, 2017)

I have hemp and flax at 4.5% each and sunflower was at 10%. I think unless someone has tried this, only time will tell. Unfortunately I bought 7 pounds of each before knowing the shelf life and am trying to decide if I should toss it or make all of it and hope for the best.


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## Kittish (Nov 18, 2017)

Alg587 said:


> I have hemp and flax at 4.5% each and sunflower was at 10%. I think unless someone has tried this, only time will tell. Unfortunately I bought 7 pounds of each before knowing the shelf life and am trying to decide if I should toss it or make all of it and hope for the best.



So long as the oils don't smell off or rancid, I'd keep using them. Storing them in the fridge can help extend their shelf life until you are able to use them.


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## SunRiseArts (Nov 19, 2017)

I made soap with grape seed oil a few months ago,  maybe 6 or less?  The thread is somewhere out there.  

I was warned about the short life of grapeseed.  I still have a few bars and they still look lovely and smell divine.  So I am not sure what you are making, but if you think there is short shelf life just use within 6 month. I separated one to look at in one year, so if I remember I will come back with an update.

Short shelf life, does not equal bad soap IMO.

BUT (there is always one)

if the oil is fixing to expire my guess would be, and I am only guessing,  that it might depend on how much you super fat.  I super fat at 3%, but if you super fat at high amounts, then perhaps the oil that does not go through the saponification process could tend to go rancid?  It would make sense.


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## DandelionLeaf (Nov 22, 2017)

I'm no expert (!), but if shelf-life of oils is a problem in the finished product, would grapefruit seed extract (as Cavitch uses in her books/recipes) make them more stable and last longer? 

Could you also use wheatgerm/vit E/ antioxidants to prolong the soap's life? (all just questions as I've been wondering about this myself!).


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## wickedblonde (Nov 24, 2017)

(good question... I'm curious about this as well)


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## Kittish (Nov 24, 2017)

DandelionLeaf said:


> I'm no expert (!), but if shelf-life of oils is a problem in the finished product, would grapefruit seed extract (as Cavitch uses in her books/recipes) make them more stable and last longer?
> 
> Could you also use wheatgerm/vit E/ antioxidants to prolong the soap's life? (all just questions as I've been wondering about this myself!).



Grapefruit seed extract doesn't really work to prevent oils going off. Vitamin E also doesn't work very well. The very best combination to prevent rancidity is BHT plus sodium citrate. ROE works reasonably well alone, if you don't want to get into chemical additives. EDTA also works fairly well alone, and does pretty well in combination with ROE. ROE plus sodium citrate is not a good combination, though.

Information is from Scientific Soapmaking by Kevin Dunn.


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## SunRiseArts (Nov 24, 2017)

Lard like armour has preservatives in them.  Maybe that would help the batch as a hole?  I have no idea, but maybe?


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## seven8soap (Nov 24, 2017)

I have/do on occasion make soap with rancid oil. I super fat at 1-2% and the soap comes out fine. Also, dos soap is safe to use. My husband loves that smell. He says it smells like soap did when he was a kid. Strange man, that one.


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 25, 2017)

Tips to extend the shelf life of oils:

Although Cavitch soaped at 10% SF and used GSE (grapefruit seed extract) to prevent rancidity, later studies show that not only does GSE not work as well as some other options, but it's expensive as well.

Add antioxidants ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) and Vitamin E at 1% when you first open the container and to the soap batch as well. ETA: I found an unopened 4 oz. bottle of Flaxseed Shampoo made 3-4 years ago and it was as good as the day it was made... I'm just sayin'... don't toss those oils... find ways to use them up.

Instead of sunflower oil, use *high oleic* sunflower oil (ditto for canola, safflower, etc).

Soap at 0% - 5% superfat in most cases.

Keep cold and out of the light.



Alg587 said:


> I have hemp and flax at 4.5% each and sunflower was  at 10%. I think unless someone has tried this, only time will tell.


I think you're safe with those %s for those oils. No worries. 



Alg587 said:


> Unfortunately I bought 7 pounds of each before knowing the shelf life  and am trying to decide if I should toss it or make all of it and hope  for the best.


If you're interested in trying to make stuff other than CP to use up those oils -- 

Infuse the sunflower with calendula petals (and/or other herbs); strain; add 15% beeswax for a nice lip balm; soothing baby bum balm/herbal salve, etc.

Flaxseed (Liquid) Shampoo: flaxseed 82%, rosin 15%, coconut 3% 

NOTE: You can use short shelf life oils at greater percentages in liquid soap because it doesn't matter as much as it does in hard bars where they tend to make softer bars.
ETA: I recently found a sealed bottle of Flaxseed Shampoo that was 3-4 years oil and it was as good as the day it was made. I just sayin'... please don't toss those oils... find ways to use them up.


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## Saponificarian (Nov 25, 2017)

I have 3 batches that used Hempseed and Grapeseed oil at 20%. So batch 1 Hempseed at 20% batch 2, Grapeseed at 20%. Batch 3 10% each Grapeseed and Hempseed oil. They were made in July and they are still fine. I want to see if and when they will get DOS. I used 1% citric acid in each batch to try to keep DOS at bay.


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## rjlnokom (Jun 20, 2018)

Kittish said:


> Grapefruit seed extract doesn't really work to prevent oils going off. Vitamin E also doesn't work very well. The very best combination to prevent rancidity is BHT plus sodium citrate. ROE works reasonably well alone, if you don't want to get into chemical additives. EDTA also works fairly well alone, and does pretty well in combination with ROE. ROE plus sodium citrate is not a good combination, though.
> 
> Information is from Scientific Soapmaking by Kevin Dunn.




Hi there! Just wondering how much or what is the measurement guide I should follow in using BHT and Sodium Citrate in soap making. Should I use equal amounts of BHT and Sodium Citrate? And how much do I need to add? Thanks!


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 21, 2018)

I'm not a scientist, just a lowly soaper for 13 years. I've used ROE and vitamin E (antioxidants) in just about every batch (hard bars and liquid) I've made and never had DOS or even soda ash, for that matter. I just soaped HO sunflower oil infused with hyssop with ROE & vitamin E added (at 1%) that's been sitting on the shelf for a year and I wanted to use it up. Smelled fine before and after soaping. No worries.

That being said, I don't think you need to worry about adding BHT or Sodium Citrate to your soap at all. I honestly don't know of anyone who does that, altho I suspect there are some SMF members who do.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 21, 2018)

I would exclude the sodium citrate comment from the above post. Many soapers (here, anyway) use it as a chelator, nothing to do with rancidity at all


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## rjlnokom (Jun 21, 2018)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I would exclude the sodium citrate comment from the above post. Many soapers (here, anyway) use it as a chelator, nothing to do with rancidity at all



Hi there! Thank you sharing your comment! I was researching which is the best preservative you can use and I was given a link regarding a study which you can also view here: http://cavemanchemistry.com/DreadedOrangeSpot-Dunn.pdf

And in the last part the author did mention that one of the best combination of preservative was BHT with Sodium Citrate.

So now I'm even more confused.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 21, 2018)

In combination, it might well be very effective. But sodium citrate might do much for rancidity on its own. 

It does, however, help with hard water, so shouldn't be totally discounted as an additive simply based on the need to prevent DOS or not


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## rjlnokom (Jun 21, 2018)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> In combination, it might well be very effective. But sodium citrate might do much for rancidity on its own.
> 
> It does, however, help with hard water, so shouldn't be totally discounted as an additive simply based on the need to prevent DOS or not



Thank you so much for your comment @The Efficacious Gentleman !

Would someone know much is the recommend measurement of both chemicals to be effective?

And how about EDTA? Which is more effective between the two? EDTA or BHT + Sodium Citrate? And how much EDTA is recommend usage?

Thanks!


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## dibbles (Jun 21, 2018)

rjlnokom said:


> Would someone know much is the recommend measurement of both chemicals to be effective?
> 
> And how about EDTA? Which is more effective between the two? EDTA or BHT + Sodium Citrate? And how much EDTA is recommend usage?
> 
> Thanks!




Here is a link to some articles written by SMF member DeeAnna. I gave you the link to the page because there is a lot of good information to be found there. Scroll down to the chelator and antioxidant sections for answers to your specific questions.


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## dibbles (Jun 21, 2018)

I usually add sodium citrate or EDTA to my soaps, and the majority of them are made with lard which has BHT added. Even though I have softened water, not everyone that I give soap to does so I use it as a chelator.


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## rjlnokom (Jun 21, 2018)

dibbles said:


> Here is a link to some articles written by SMF member DeeAnna. I gave you the link to the page because there is a lot of good information to be found there. Scroll down to the chelator and antioxidant sections for answers to your specific questions.



Thanks! I shall do that!


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 21, 2018)

rjlnokom said:


> Would someone know much is the recommend measurement of both chemicals to be effective? And how about EDTA? Which is more effective between the two? EDTA or BHT + Sodium Citrate? And how much EDTA is recommend usage?


As I mentioned earlier, the reason EDTA, BHT, and Sodium Citrate aren't found in homemade soap recipes is because most soapers don't use those chemicals in soap, with the exception of SMF where some members add SC as a chelator, as Effy G mentioned, to reduce soap scum from the tub and shower. It really isn't necessary to produce fine soap. 

If you go to the Beginners Forum and check out the links to recipes from various reliable sources, or even a random search of YouTube videos, like Soapmaking 101 and others, you won't find them. To avoid confusion, you might want to do a little more research -- from a variety of sources --  before getting on the Keven Dunn bandwagon, especially if that's the only book on soapmaking you've read.

Personally, I take Kevin Dunn's suggestions with a grain of salt. But that's just me...   I'm not a fan, mainly because of situations like this where Newbies become confused about "preservatives" in soap, which isn't necessary at all, and using chemicals in soap which is Kevin's area of expertise, i.e., chemistry vs soapmaking. 

HTH and good luck!


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## soapmaker (Jun 21, 2018)

Zany_in_CO said:


> As I mentioned earlier, the reason EDTA, BHT, and Sodium Citrate aren't found in homemade soap recipes is because most soapers don't use those chemicals in soap, with the exception of SMF where some members add SC as a chelator, as Effy G mentioned, to reduce soap scum from the tub and shower. It really isn't necessary to produce fine soap.
> 
> If you go to the Beginners Forum and check out the links to recipes from various reliable sources, or even a random search of YouTube videos, like Soapmaking 101 and others, you won't find them. To avoid confusion, you might want to do a little more research -- from a variety of sources --  before getting on the Keven Dunn bandwagon, especially if that's the only book on soapmaking you've read.
> 
> ...


Exactly!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 21, 2018)

Based on my water, any soap with no chelator would not be a fine soap.


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## IrishLass (Jun 21, 2018)

Ditto what the good Gent said^^^^. Based on my very hard water (of which the TDS, aka 'total dissolved solids' is nigh bordering on "unfit for human consumption" according to the EPA standards) my handmade soap is not as fine of a soap as it is compared to my batches with tetrasodium EDTA added to them. For what it's worth, I add .5% tetrasodium EDTA of the total batch weight to every batch of soap that I make. That's the absolute highest I'd ever go with it. As hard as my water is, it's amazing what wonders that little amount does for my soap. It makes it lather up better and with much less effort, and it cuts down on the annoying soap scum that forms in my shower and sink that comes part & parcel when using handmade lye-based soap in hard water.

As for DOS prevention, I've never had a problem with DOS (rancidity), not even in the years before I ever started adding EDTA. For me and the reason why I use EDTA, it just happens to be a nice, bonus side-effect. Lye-based soap is pretty resilient and is normally not in need of a preservative - the naturally higher pH keeps most nasties away. Your soap will be perfectly fine without one as long as your oils/fats are not rancid when you soap with them, and as long as you keep the more fragile-type oils/fats at a lower percentage in your formula (i.e., hemp, grapeseed, etc...).

From my notes that I've gathered over the years:

- EDTA alone works best for both soap scum and DOS
- Sodium Citrate alone is half as good for soap scum as EDTA and has no effect on DOS
- BHT and EDTA are excellent for soap scum and good to prevent DOS
- BHT and Sodium Citrate are half as good for soap scum as EDTA but the best to prevent DOS

The usage rate for a Sodium Citrate /BHT combo for DOS prevention is .05% of each as per your oil weight (i.e.,  .1% combined total). The BHT is best dissolved in your warmed fats. I've never used BHT, but my notes say to heat a portion of your oils to 160F , slowly stir the BHT into it until dissolved, then combine that with the rest of your oils before adding the lye solution.  





Zany_in_CO said:


> ..... and using chemicals in soap which is Kevin's area of expertise, i.e., chemistry vs soapmaking.



At it's heart, soapmaking _is_ chemistry. Also, do not forget that lye is a chemical.


IrishLass


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## earlene (Jun 21, 2018)

Based on what Dr. Dunn's experiments showed here, the suggested amount of BHT and Sodium Citrate is 0.1% of your oil weight. *

Now, I cannot say more than what Dr. Dunn says in his paper, and I cannot tell you from experience about using BHT & Sodium Citrate, because I don't use them.  I use ROE + EDTA because it is the second most effective combination (tied equally with BHT + EDTA), but I chose it because it does not contain BHT.  When I was first making this decision I didn't want to have to make lye-adjustments that must be made with Sodium Citrate and wasn't convinced I wanted to use BHT.

Now I would not really have a problem with either of those things, but I am pretty sure I have enough EDTA to last me the rest of my lifetime of soaping.  So I suspect I probably won't be trying BHT unless I get some for free sometime.

* ETA, Thank you to *IrishLass* for the information about how much of each in the BHT + Sodium Citrate to use.  I was unclear on the exact amounts.

Second ETA: strike-though for erroneous statement (I don't remember if I thought that at the time erroneously, or my mind is just too messed up from meds for sinus congestion to think straight; possibly both.)


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## psfred (Jun 21, 2018)

I use EDTA and citrate with BHT in my soaps currently because I've had too much trouble with rancidity after six months or so.  Only on the surface, and it washes off quickly, but it's annoying.

You must also use high purity water -- the presence of iron or magnesium seems to greatly accelerate rancidity, and well water typically has some of both.  EDTA does NOT help in that case.

0.1 to 0.5% of EDTA, 0.1 to 0.2% of BHT and citrate seem to be the normal amounts.  

That said, you never really know.  I've had soaps that lasted 8 months with no issues and others that lasted three made from mostly the same ingredients, mostly commercial lard which has citrate and BHT in high enough amounts it never goes rancid on me.  Didn't help much in the soap, every batch I made with it got spots eventually, even when it was just a small amount of superfat.


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## dibbles (Jun 21, 2018)

earlene said:


> When I was first making this decision I didn't want to have to make lye-adjustments that must be made with Sodium Citrate and wasn't convinced I wanted to use BHT.



You don't have to adjust the lye when using sodium citrate. You do have to adjust when using citric acid.


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## earlene (Jun 22, 2018)

dibbles said:


> You don't have to adjust the lye when using sodium citrate. You do have to adjust when using citric acid.




You are right, of course, *dibbles*!  I seem to have come down with either a cold or am having allergy symptoms and my head isn't clear the last couple of days.  I added the strike-though to the erroneous statement in my above post.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 22, 2018)

IrishLass said:


> At it's heart, soapmaking _is_ chemistry. Also, do not forget that lye is a chemical.


Your point is well made, Irish, but cooking, as I understand it, is also chemistry. And I'm just one of those people who never felt the need to know much about the chemistry of cooking or soapmaking and can still make a fine bar of soap, or a perfect soufflé. 

On the other hand, I appreciate those with a chemical background that share their knowledge with the group. I remember, back in the day, there was always one soaper in every group, like RatXXX (Suzanne D) and others, with a background in chemistry that were popular because of what they brought to the group in the way of experimentation and thoughtful input that helped so many people, myself included, in so many ways, and for that, I am forever grateful.   Most importantly, they never made soapers who weren't as well versed in the chemistry end of soapmaking feel bad.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 22, 2018)

The cooking is a good analogy. I imagine if someone said that they but citric acid in to something, no one would be up in arms over chemical additives. 

And yet sodium citrate is just citric acid which has reacted with sodium hydroxide. That is exactly the same as what happens when our oils react with sodium hydroxide - you don't have olive oil in your soap, you have sodium olivate. 

So why is sodium olivate okay to have in a soap, but sodium citrate is not?


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## soapmaker (Jun 22, 2018)

It's all in how people_ perceive _it to be whether it actually is that way or not. If you don't have the knowledge, then you have perceptions. They may or may not be correct. I agree so fully with Zany. I love cooking and soapmaking and can do both well without a great store of chemistry knowledge, but have much appreciation for those who can share their knowledge of chemistry.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 22, 2018)

If you're making it for others then you can explain that sodium citrate is just citric acid reacted with the lye. If your using it for yourself then you can take a little bit of time to think about your perception. After all, citric acid reacted with lye to make sodium citrate - that's not bad. 

But what gets my goat is when people tell others that something is bad based purely on their own misperceptions of something. By all means, don't use sodium citrate because "chemicals!". But I will not sit still while other people are given that same wonky thinking.


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## IrishLass (Jun 22, 2018)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Most importantly, they never made soapers who weren't as well versed in the chemistry end of soapmaking feel bad.



I wholeheartedly agree. But by the same token, we also need to be careful to not make soapers feel bad for wanting to know more of the 'behind-the-scenes' chemistry so as to make their fine soap even finer by using ingredients such as EDTA or BHT or sodium citrate.  


IrishLass


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## Steve85569 (Jun 22, 2018)

Soap is after all just salts made from various oils. Sodium X.

I use lard being a lardinator - and the lard I use has BHT in it. I also use Sodium Citrate @ 2%: oil weight and Sodium Acetate @ 2%: oil weight for most of my soap.
SC does soften the finished product and the reacted vinegar ( sodium acetate) hardens it back up for a longer lasting bar of soap. Since I have been using the combination along with a reasonably low superfat I have had no DOS in a couple of years.
Some of my oils *may* be past their "best by" date too.

So to address the original question - With proper chemistry in the kitchen or where ever you make your soap you can make a long storing and lasting soap with shorter shelf life oils. As long as the oils are saponified correctly.

Your mileage may vary.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 22, 2018)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The cooking is a good analogy. I imagine if someone said that they but citric acid in to something, no one would be up in arms over chemical additives.


OT (Off Topic) That reminded me of an easy appetizer we like to make that contains citric acid. So yummy and so easy to make! I just posted it in the recipe Forum. Here's a link:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/sweet-sour-meatballs.70604/

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.


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## lenarenee (Jun 23, 2018)

Sometimes I get ornery and want to freak out the "chemicals?!"  people by changing my ingredient label of water to dihydrogen monoxide!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 23, 2018)

Zany_in_CO said:


> OT (Off Topic) That reminded me of an easy appetizer we like to make that contains citric acid. So yummy and so easy to make! I just posted it in the recipe Forum. Here's a link:
> 
> https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/sweet-sour-meatballs.70604/
> 
> We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.


And yet we didn't return to the regular program, as you didn't make any comment on the points I raised above.


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## rammeny (Jul 7, 2022)

Steve85569 said:


> Soap is after all just salts made from various oils. Sodium X.
> 
> I use lard being a lardinator - and the lard I use has BHT in it. I also use Sodium Citrate @ 2%: oil weight and Sodium Acetate @ 2%: oil weight for most of my soap.
> SC does soften the finished product and the reacted vinegar ( sodium acetate) hardens it back up for a longer lasting bar of soap. Since I have been using the combination along with a reasonably low superfat I have had no DOS in a couple of years.
> ...


When do you add sodium acetate?


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## DeeAnna (Jul 7, 2022)

rammeny said:


> When do you add sodium acetate?


That person added vinegar to their soap, not sodium acetate. When vinegar (acetic acid solution) reacts with sodium hydroxide (NaOH) the result is sodium acetate.


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## Steve85569 (Jul 8, 2022)

The sodium acetate is added to the water before the sodium hydroxide (lye) . It does not dissolve as easily as the hydroxide so giving it some time to rehydrate is nice.
Alternately you can use vinegar for a portion of you liquid BUT you should remember that is is acidic and should be neutralized with the correct amount of additional lye to prevent extra "superfat".


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## rammeny (Jul 21, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> It does not dissolve as easily as the hydroxide so giving it some time to rehydrate is nice.





Steve85569 said:


> Alternately you can use vinegar for a portion of you liquid BUT you should remember that is is acidic and should be neutralized with the correct amount of additional lye to prevent extra "superfat".


Thank you DeeAnna and Steve


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