# Effy's Liquid Soap Experiments



## The Efficacious Gentleman

So, starting this off for my planning phase - this weekend I should be making some liquid soaps and doing some experiments to share.

To start, I'll masterbatch a 50% KOH solution to save some time.  Then I'll make some batches using the cold process LS method - 

2x 100% CO dish soap.  One diluted with normal water, one diluted with a 20% table salt solution to see how the thickness changes.

4x hand soap:

2x with glycerine as the tracer-aid.  One with normal water, once with the salt solution

2x with grated soap as the tracer-aid.  One with normal water, once with the salt solution
​I'll keep you all (or y'all, if you prefer) updated with the progress.


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## Susie

Sorry, Effy, brine solution will not thicken liquid soap with more than 20% CO.  You'll have to reserve that thickener for something other than the 100% CO.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Ah, thanks for the heads up.  What is good for thickening the dish one, or will it not really need it?


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## Susie

I don't know.  I have been unable to join over there, or access any links from there.  I keep getting some sort of place to buy supplies.  Or when I eventually get to the apparently inactive forum and click on the link to go to the active one, I get this:

Not Found

The requested URL /forum/ was not found on this server.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Sorry, Susie - I meant to ask waht would be good for thickening dishwashing soap, when it is 100% CO - or doesn't it need it?


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## DeeAnna

Susie -- The Dish, you mean? Try this: http://www.thedishforum.com/forum

Effy -- not Susie, but it's hard to dilute a high-CO soap to get just the right thickness. (waving hands about gellation points and arcane bits of science trivia) If you really want a thicker CO soap, you may have to look at separate thickeners that don't depend on the soap itself for the thickening action. I'm not at all informed on this topic, so maybe someone else will chime in about thickeners that work well.

With the other soap, careful dilution may be all you need to get a pleasantly thick LS. Especially for high-oleic soaps, the range of water content is a bit wider where the soap itself is a gel. Salt is always an option, but I'd reserve that for the possibility that the dilution doesn't give you enough thickness. And I'd experiment on just a sample if you do go with salt. Salt can cut lather, so you're trading off evils, so to speak.


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## Susie

DeeAnna!

You are a miracle worker!  I have been trying to get into there for 2 years.  Thank you so much!


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## IrishLass

My one batch of liquid 100% coconut oil soap made via the glycerin method is as beautifully thick as my Dawn dishwashing liquid. My dilution rate was 7 parts paste to only 2 parts water (coconut oil doesn't need much water to dilute it, that's for sure!). I've heard from others that it's nearly impossible to get a thick dilution of 100% CO paste via the Failor method. I've never tried the Failor method, but thankfully, it's actually quite easy to get a thick CO soap with the glycerin method (at least it was with my attempt). Just start out small!


@ Susie- now that you are on the Dish, you can read through the awesome thread that got me started on my liquid soapmaking journey: http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146547-glycerin-method-liquid-soap/?hl=glycerin  I gotta warn you- it's very long (but so cool). It starts slow, but then it builds into a giant avalanche of exciting experimentation. The posts by 3bees~1flower and Lily2 were especially of tremendous help and encouragement to me.


IrishLass


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## Saponista

As a side note, has anyone else had difficulty dissolving the KOH in the glycerine. I have quite large flakes and I ended up stick blending it to try and get it to dissolve. It took over an hour in the crock pot to dissolve completely and even then I still wasn't totally happy with it when I added the oils.


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## Susie

You need to add that KOH VERY SLOWLY to the glycerin, stirring until it is completely dissolved.  I probably added no more than 10-15 g at the time.


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## Saponista

Thanks susie, that was probably my problem. I dumped it all in in one go.


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## Susie

I did that once.  Learned my lesson.


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## IrishLass

Saponista said:


> As a side note, has anyone else had difficulty dissolving the KOH in the glycerine. I have quite large flakes and I ended up stick blending it to try and get it to dissolve. It took over an hour in the crock pot to dissolve completely and even then I still wasn't totally happy with it when I added the oils.


 

Saponista- how hot does your crockpot get? I ask because the glycerin needs to be boiling in order for the KOH to dissolve in a timely fashion. When I dissolve my KOH in the glycerin, I add both together in a stainless pot at room temp, then I heat the pot on medium high to get the glycerin to the boiling point (while stirring), and it only takes about 8 minutes or so for the KOH to completely dissolve. Edited to add- my KOH is the thick, flaked kind.


IrishLass


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Enough of your hijacking shenanigans!  

One thought - would Sodium Citrate be an idea, if it helps with bar soap in my water?


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## IrishLass

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Enough of your hijacking shenanigans!


 
My aplologies! I'll try to be better!







The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> One thought - would Sodium Citrate be an idea, if it helps with bar soap in my water?


 
I don't see why not. I use tetrasodium EDTA in my liquid soap as well as my bar soap, which helps with the same thing as Sodium Citrate.


IrishLass


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## Saponista

My apologies, I shall stop hijacking now. Thanks for your help though susie and irishlass. My crockpot was on low do I shall get the glycerine hotter next time too and hopefully all my problems will be resolved.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I was playing, ladies - it was a rather on topic hijack and those are rarely a bad thing. 

Still, an update:

Today I made two batches, side by side - 





One batch with soap, one with glycerine, to see how they behave differently if at all. 

Basic recipe was the same:

155.5g olive oil
77.5g co
15g castor

5g citric acid
7.5g sugar

4g soap for the soaped batch
77.5g glycerin for the gly batch

54.5g KOH
171g distilled water - we know that is important and there just so happened to be some in the shop when I did the shopping this morning!

So reading the instructions in Susie's cold process LS thread, I saw that adding things like grated soap to the lye wasn't really 100% required, so added the tracer-aids to the stainless pots along with the co, sugar and ca. 

Mixed up the lye, let it clear and then poured it in, using it to melt the co. When the co was melted, I added in the olive and castor. 




Then I stick blended between the two (aye, there will be some cross contamination, but so little that I worry not. Hey, I'm not Dr Dunn!)

After a wee bit, the soaped batch was at a nice trace, about the same as wallpaper paste I would say. The glycerine batch was still jolly runny indeed, no sign of trace at all. I covered the soaped batch up to rest for a whole and carried on with the gly batch. Still not tracing. 

So I also have that covered and will check again after a cup of tea


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

The Soap batch is still a wee bit zappy, so that is having more time to sit.

The gly guy had a solid disc and a lot of oils, so I gave it a good mix and it is a lot thicker, so wrapped that one up in the thick towel, too.  Will give them both some time to get themselves in order.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Well, nothing like trying something new to remind yourself of how it feels to be a newbie!

The soap based batch looked okay, but I gave it a stir and there was liquid under a semi solid layer! Mixed it back to paste and it is zappy as can be. The gly based batch also had a liquid layer underneath. Both got a good stir and a little bake.

Will see how they are in the morning. 

The instructions might well be fool-proof, but they aren't idiot proof


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## Susie

I'm going to go with insufficient stick blending to begin with.  You need to get almost to the consistency of gelled HP.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I think that would help. I also wonder if larger batches produce more heat which helps things along, too?

By way of update, both have no excess liquid going on. I left the gly batch in the oven overnight so it is slightly thicker than the soaped batch. I will look at diluting one of them either tonight or tomorrow


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## Susie

Probably.  I did not think of that until you called it to my attention.  I usually make batches no smaller than 500 g of oil.  Even the test batches are 500 g.  I don't have a mini SB, you see, and anything smaller than 500 g is too small to use with my current SB and tub.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I also read in another thread that when you use the glycerin you count it as part of the water - I missed that and used the amount of water AND the glycerine, so no wonder I was a little bit wet to start with.

Thanks for holding my hand through all this. It's great fun, if a little bit scary


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## DeeAnna

I'm with Susie ... trace in LS is different than trace for CP NaOH soap. More like the point when an HP NaOH soap hits gel stage. If ya can stir it easy, it ain't there yet.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Well, both were a wee bit harsh for my tastes, after I diluted a little bit at the ration 2 parts paste to 1 part water.  I did use normal tap water rather than distilled water for the dilution, but not sure it would make such a difference to the feel of it.

I am going to leave the pastes for a while and come back to them.


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## Susie

Liquid soap does not have the higher superfat that bar soap does.  You end up with a layer of oils sitting on top of the soap that you then have to add something like polysorbate 80 to bring it back together.  It also has a higher percentage of CO typically than bar soap does.  Both of these contribute heavily to that harshness.  

I stopped diluting my 100% CO dish soap a while ago.  I just put a dab(I now put the paste in 0.5 oz tubes) on the cloth or brush and scrub away.  If I do need liquid soap, I just understand that it will be thin.  It also does not suds up like syndets do.  However, our ancestors did fine without high sudsing soaps, so it won't hurt us either.  The commercial "soap" manufacturers have us convinced that suds=effectiveness just because it is easier to show on advertisements.

100% CO liquid soap does wonders on laundry without adding those syndets.  I use the paste as stain removers or 100% CO as stain sticks.  Works a charm.  It would be good for cleaning up baby clothes without adding chemicals...just saying.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

So, latest news!

I took two samples of each batch for dilution - one with plains distilled water, the other with a 20:80 salt:distilled water solution. 

Dilution ratio was 2:1 paste to liquid. Here are the results:

Paste with soap as the trace-maker, water only dilution




Paste with glycerine as the trace-maker with water only dilution



Paste with soap as the trace-maker, salt solution dilution



Paste with glycerine as the trace-maker, salt solution dilution



So when using a salt solution, it appears that you need a lot more of it!

At this point the lather was pretty similar between them all, but I think if I added in more solution to the pastes the salt might inhibit a little bit at least


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## Susie

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> At this point the lather was pretty similar between them all, but I think if I added in more solution to the pastes the *salt might inhibit a little bit at least*



That was my experience.  Salt just is not my friend in soapmaking.  I like my bubbles.


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## IrishLass

The Efficacious Gentleman said:
			
		

> So when using a salt solution, it appears that you need a lot more of it!


 
Just be careful how much salt you add because it can also have the opposite thickening-effect if too much is added to liquid soap. I added just a titch too much once and instead of my soap getting gradually thicker as it had been doing as I was adding the solution drop by drop, it all of a sudden thinned right back out. I guess that one last drop was just too much! I found that putting my thinned-out batch in a pot and heating it with the cover off to encourage evaporation helped to thicken it back up.

[Edited to add- I don't normally use salt in my liquid soap- it was just that one time.] 


IrishLass


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Okay, well something interesting happened - one of the salt water dilutions had just a load more water added, as I said, just to see what would happen:




An actual liquid soap consistency! I will do some more experiments with various salt levels and water amounts to see what sort of results we can get, but it looks promising. It lathered well enough as there was no more salt added that originally, so it might well have a chance. 

Once more in to the breach!


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## LBussy

IrishLass said:


> @ Susie- now that you are on the Dish, you can read through the awesome thread that got me started on my liquid soapmaking journey: http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146547-glycerin-method-liquid-soap/?hl=glycerin  I gotta warn you- it's very long (but so cool). It starts slow, but then it builds into a giant avalanche of exciting experimentation. The posts by 3bees~1flower and Lily2 were especially of tremendous help and encouragement to me.


The video that 3Bees posted was so good that I only (!?) got through page 32 before trying it myself.  It may have been the easiest soap to make yet.  The paste is going to sit overnight before I dilute.



Saponista said:


> As a side note, has anyone else had difficulty dissolving the KOH in the glycerine. I have quite large flakes and I ended up stick blending it to try and get it to dissolve. It took over an hour in the crock pot to dissolve completely and even then I still wasn't totally happy with it when I added the oils.


I added the KOH to my cold (unheated) glycerin in the pot.  I stirred that to break up clumps and then heated it over medium heat (elec stove).  I stirred off and on the whole time; by the time it got to boiling it was completely dissolved.  The liquid was maybe 320-330° F which is well under the boiling point of pure glycerin at 554°F so I assume that the boiling is driving off the moisture adsorbed by the lye.  Maybe DeeAnna will swing by and let me know if my guess is right.

You said you used the crock-pot and assuming that's correct I don't think a crock-pot will get that hot.



IrishLass said:


> I don't see why not. I use tetrasodium EDTA in my liquid soap as well as my bar soap, which helps with the same thing as Sodium Citrate.


Do you use the weight of the oils, finished paste, or finished LS as the basis for calculation?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

With the ca I used? It was weight of oils


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## IrishLass

LBussy said:


> Do you use the weight of the oils, finished paste, or finished LS as the basis for calculation?


 
Speaking only for myself, I use the weight of finished liquid soap as the basis for my tetrasodium EDTA calculations.

Since I use EDTA in 39% solution form, I do a 2-part calculation to make sure I'm adding the correct amount of the solution: 

1) I take the total weight of my finished liquid soap (in grams) and multiply it by .5%. The resulting answer tells me how many grams of powdered EDTA is required for my batch. But since I'm working with a 39% solution, I do the following extra equation....
2) I take the required amount of powdered EDTA and multiply it by 2.56. The resulting sum is how much of my 39% solution to weigh out for my batch (in grams). 


IrishLass


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## ngian

Speaking of EDTA, I have found both trisodium and tetrasodium EDTA in powder form. Which one is "better"?

Is 4sodium more powerful than 3sodium and thus it needs lesser amount to have an effect? Or are they just different materials that are intended for different purposes?

Nikos


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## DeeAnna

Good question, Nikos. It comes as DIsodium EDTA or TETRAsodium EDTA. Use TETRA for alkaline products and DI for neutral to acidic. 

So ... tetra is best for lye soap.

"...I assume that the boiling is driving off the moisture adsorbed by the lye. Maybe DeeAnna will swing by and let me know if my guess is right...."

I'm not sure on that one, Lee. You might well be right, but it's hard to find out much about this. 

It seems this process of using glycerin rather than water to make soap started with busy pharmacists who didn't have a lot of time to hover over saponifying soap to make their medicated concoctions. It's drifted over, as far as I can tell mainly due to "Silver Doctor" at the Dish, into the handcrafted soap making sphere. There aren't a lot of grubby grad students getting grant money to study the process. :think:


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## LBussy

DeeAnna said:


> I'm not sure on that one, Lee. You might well be right, but it's hard to find out much about this.


About all I can find is that the melting point of KOH is 763° F and the boiling point is 2,421° F.  That, plus the boiling point of glycerin being 554° F makes any water the likely culprit.  I suppose one could distill the steam and test it.

If that's the case, at some point the boiling should stop; holding it at heat for a period of time may empirically prove (or at least lend credence to) this.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

So last night I decided to look again at the fluke dilution that I made - I know that 20% salt at 50% of the paste weight is not good, but I know that a lower salt solution at a lather amount can result in a good consistency. The question is, how much?

So I made a 5% salt solution and made 3 testers - one at 50% paste weight, one at 100% and another at 150%. This should give me an area to aim for (less than 100% but more than 50%, for example)

Will keep "y'all" updated.


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## LBussy

Must do another liquid batch.  As a very smart man once said, "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."  

Is it better to go off on one's own and make mistakes, or to follow blindly?  Just a musing, I do both rather well.


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## Susie

I was following the crowd there until the lazy beast in me decided that there had to be an easier way to make liquid soap.  So, I researched and asked questions until I found the easier way.  Then I tweaked that until it was as simple a process as I could make it, and still get liquid soap.  

So, I think the answer is...both.  Yes, you can learn from others, but might be able to make it better/easier/more efficient/whatever by going off on your own.  I do learn from others what NOT to do better than I learn what I should do.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

So, all of these are at 50% paste weight dilution, but with varying salt amounts -



5% salt solution - far too runny



10% salt solution - getting better but still rather runny



15% salt solution - a tad too thick!

So, next I'll try a 12.5% salt solution at 50% paste weight and see how it looks


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## springonions

Looking forward to your updates on the 12.5%.

May I ask what soap calculator did you use?  I put your oils into SBM and Soapcalc and tried SF at various levels, but did not get the 54.5g koh and 171g water that you used.


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## liquidsoaplady

*hicker 100% CO Formulation*

To make a 100% CO liquid soap thicker, is pretty much in the dilution rate,

Add 9 oz distilled water per pound of paste. If you make six pounds of paste then it would be 6 x 9 = 54ounc of distilled water. If thick crust forms on top add 9 oz of distilled water at a time till no longer forms crust. 

Will produce a thicker liquid soap. Can also add 3 oz of borax to dilution water, adds the added benefit of water softener, foam booster and gives the ability to make the soap stay liquid at lower dilution rates.

Let me know if you have any questions.


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## ngian

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Well, both were a wee bit harsh for my tastes, after I diluted a little bit at the ration 2 parts paste to 1 part water.  I did use normal tap water rather than distilled water for the dilution, but not sure it would make such a difference to the feel of it.



Won't tap water affect liquid soap's quality in the dilution? Especially if tap water is hard water?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

springonions said:


> Looking forward to your updates on the 12.5%.
> 
> May I ask what soap calculator did you use?  I put your oils into SBM and Soapcalc and tried SF at various levels, but did not get the 54.5g koh and 171g water that you used.



I used the calculator in the post by Susie - I can't remember which one that was, though.



ngian said:


> Won't tap water affect liquid soap's quality in the dilution? Especially if tap water is hard water?



It might well do so, but I am thinking that it will be the same in all cases so I am still comparing like-to-like.  When I am happy and then use distilled, it will only be better


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## Saponista

Tap water makes diluted soap real cloudy, even the zero hardness tap water I have at home contains some minerals and I have to buy di water to get clear liquid soap.


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## ngian

Well I thought it would produce soap scum before using it in the bathroom, so I am thinking that tap water is a no no for dilution.

But I understand your thinking TEG.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'm not averse to cloudy LS - I might just be lazy, though.....................


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## Saponista

I didn't mind cloudy either for home use. I wanted to gift it though so I made some clear as it looks prettier in the bottles. I also tried some with naoh and KOH as I read somewhere that it makes thicker soap. That was an epic fail as the naoh soap just solidified on dilution and my liquid soap just had horrible chunks in it. I shan't be bothering with that again!


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## Susie

My tap water does not make my soap cloudy.  Neither in Texas, nor in Louisiana.  Not sure why your's does.

@Craig- I use SBM, either advanced or regular.

@springonions-Craig added citric acid, so he had to change the amount of KOH(and therefore the water amount also) to compensate for the additional acid.


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## Saponista

How odd susie. It was definitely my water, as soon as I changed to di it fixed the problem. It was the same batch of paste that I used too.

It's not just me. I got the same result as this lady.

http://blueviolafarm.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/liquid-soap-success.html?m=1


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## LBussy

Same here ... guess Susie's juts lucky.


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## springonions

Susie said:


> My tap water does not make my soap cloudy. Neither in Texas, nor in Louisiana. Not sure why your's does.
> 
> @Craig- I use SBM, either advanced or regular.
> 
> @springonions-Craig added citric acid, so he had to change the amount of KOH(and therefore the water amount also) to compensate for the additional acid.


 
Thanks for the explanation, Susie.  Never knew more water had to be added for the citric acid.  I would have thought that the original water that was used for the koh would have been sufficient to dissolve the citric acid.  But I guess Craig used the whatever amount that SBM spit out.


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## Susie

He had to add additional KOH to compensate for the acid.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Susie said:


> He had to add additional KOH to compensate for the acid.




And the water was then of course upped by the calc. Thanks, Susie - I had totally forgotten about the ca as I used it automatically now


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## DeeAnna

I did a test of hard water, softened water, and distilled water and the difference is marked, at least with my water -- see http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52456

"...Never knew more water had to be added for the citric acid...."

Spring onions -- Just to clarify -- the citric acid itself does not need more water. It would be happy to dissolve in just a tiny bit of water. Effy is using more KOH to neutralize the citric acid. If he uses more KOH then he needs to use more water as well to keep the lye solution at a constant concentration. More lye => more water.


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## Susie

Thanks DeeAnna, I forgot to clarify that.  Sorry, Springonions!


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## springonions

Susie said:


> Thanks DeeAnna, I forgot to clarify that. Sorry, Springonions!


 
No, Susie, there is nothing to say sorry about.  You guys have been so generous and helpful.  Salute:clap:

But one more question.  Citric acid is used to lower the ph of LS.  Putting more koh will up the ph.  So what's the point of using ca then


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## Susie

To reduce soap scum in hard water areas.  It chelates the minerals.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

springonions said:


> No, Susie, there is nothing to say sorry about.  You guys have been so generous and helpful.  Salute:clap:
> 
> But one more question.  Citric acid is used to lower the ph of LS.  Putting more koh will up the ph.  So what's the point of using ca then



As Susie said.  The CA reacts with some of the lye to make a citrate.


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## springonions

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> So, all of these are at 50% paste weight dilution, but with varying salt amounts -
> 
> View attachment 14261
> 
> 5% salt solution - far too runny
> 
> View attachment 14262
> 
> 10% salt solution - getting better but still rather runny
> 
> View attachment 14263
> 
> 15% salt solution - a tad too thick!
> 
> So, next I'll try a 12.5% salt solution at 50% paste weight and see how it looks



Thanks for the ca explanation.

I often read on the soap forums that it is not possible to thicken LS made with  a high percentage of co (some say 10% is the limit).  I was so puzzled when you managed to thicken your LS which contains 31% co.

After reading this thread over and over again, I think I know why.  The conventional way of thickening LS is to make a 20% saline solution and add it into the diluted soap drop by drop until it thickens to the right consistency.  So the amount of salt that has been added in is very little.  Since your salt is based on the dilution water, the amount of salt is waaaaaaay more than that of the conventional way.

So LS with a high percentage of co CAN be thickened with salt.  Just that it requires so much salt that the conventional way won't do it.  Salt must be based on the dilution water and added in during dilution, not after.

Correct me if i am wrong.


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