# Shampoo bar



## MariePhenix (Apr 19, 2017)

In a video I saw on YouTube the lady said that shampoo bar artisanal made the hair stiff and she find that rinsing with water and apple vinaigre help her ... her argument was that was no detergent in the shampoo homemade. Is that true?:headbanging:


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## shunt2011 (Apr 19, 2017)

I don't recommend using soap on the hair. Ph is too high and it damaged my hair to where I had to cut it relatively short due to the damage.  There are some that claim they have no issues but many have had damaged hair.  With or without a vinegar rinse.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 19, 2017)

MariePhenix said:


> In a video I saw on YouTube the lady said that  shampoo bar artisanal made the hair stiff and she find that rinsing  with water and apple vinaigre help her ... her argument was that was no  detergent in the shampoo homemade. Is that true?



Yes, that's true. Commercial Shampoos are made with detergent and other synthetic chemicals. They are referred to as "Syndet" bars. However, within the soap making community, it's "different strokes for different folks". Homemade Shampoo Bars are really a matter of personal choice. Some members, like Shunt, have really bad experiences. Some members, like me, love making homemade shampoo --  bars and liquid, but the homemade stuff takes a bit of getting used to. And rinsing with apple cider vinegar or beer or lemon or lemon/parsley is necessary to get all the soap scum out so the hair doesn't get stiff.  Here's a link that compares homemade shampoo bars to commercial shampoo. (Scroll down)

http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalv...-chagrin-valley-natural-handmade-shampoo-bars
   :bunny:


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## aihrat (Apr 20, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Yes, that's true. Commercial Shampoos are made with detergent and other synthetic chemicals. They are referred to as "Syndet" bars. However, within the soap making community, it's "different strokes for different folks". Homemade Shampoo Bars are really a matter of personal choice. Some members, like Shunt, have really bad experiences. Some members, like me, love making homemade shampoo --  bars and liquid, but the homemade stuff takes a bit of getting used to. And rinsing with apple cider vinegar or beer or lemon or lemon/parsley is necessary to get all the soap scum out so the hair doesn't get stiff.  Here's a link that compares homemade shampoo bars to commercial shampoo. (Scroll down)
> 
> http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalv...-chagrin-valley-natural-handmade-shampoo-bars
> 
> HTH   :bunny:​



Would adding a chelator such as EDTA or sodium citrate help with the soap scum? And could homemade shampoo bars be any good if the PH were lowered (slightly) via adding an acid to rebatched soap?


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## WeaversPort (Apr 20, 2017)

aihrat said:


> Would adding a chelator such as EDTA or sodium citrate help with the soap scum? And could homemade shampoo bars be any good if the PH were lowered (slightly) via adding an acid to rebatched soap?



I know there was a whole conversation about adding acids to shampoo bars and how it didn't really help during initial soaping.. But I don't know if anyone explored lowering the ph during rebatch. That's an interesting question.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 20, 2017)

aihrat said:


> Would adding a chelator such as EDTA or sodium citrate help with the soap scum? And could homemade shampoo bars be any good if the PH were lowered (slightly) via adding an acid to rebatched soap?



Yes, you could use a chelator. That would help any soap scum problem. 

No, you can't lower the pH of soap enough to get the pH low enough to be suitable for hair. Hair needs a neutral (pH 7) or slightly acidic product to avoid long term damage. If you try to lower the pH of soap to a pH of 7 or lower, the soap will respond by dissociating (breaking down) into fatty acids. It wouldn't be soap anymore. It doesn't matter whether you add the acid when making the soap or if you add it later. You'll get similar results.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 20, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> Yes, you could use a chelator. That would help any soap scum problem. No, you can't lower the pH of soap enough to get the pH low enough to be suitable for hair. Hair needs a neutral (pH 7) or slightly acidic product to avoid long term damage. If you try to lower the pH of soap to a pH of 7 or lower, the soap will respond by dissociating (breaking down) into fatty acids. It wouldn't be soap anymore. It doesn't matter whether you add the acid when making the soap or if you add it later. You'll get similar results.


Ditto.

ETA: LOL I  was running my fingers through my hair earlier today and just love the way it feels. I don't know why it isn't damaged. Maybe something in the genes? I've been using homemade shampoo for 13 years now. I haven't had a perm or colored my hair in almost 30 years. I use argan oil, just a drop or two, after rinsing thoroughly in cool to cold water, and that's it. I also don't use a dryer or a lot of product. But that's just me. It's not for everyone.


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## Cellador (Apr 20, 2017)

I recently started using a shampoo bar and vinegar rinse on my hair, and I have loved the results. It does take some getting used to, because the hair is clumpy and squeaky-clean initially. Once I comb my hair, it is soft and shiny, and it appears healthier.

But, I've been looking into other non-shampoo hair alternatives recently. I might try making an herbal hair "mask" once my shampoo bar is gone.


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## aihrat (Apr 21, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> Yes, you could use a chelator. That would help any soap scum problem.
> 
> No, you can't lower the pH of soap enough to get the pH low enough to be suitable for hair. Hair needs a neutral (pH 7) or slightly acidic product to avoid long term damage. If you try to lower the pH of soap to a pH of 7 or lower, the soap will respond by dissociating (breaking down) into fatty acids. It wouldn't be soap anymore. It doesn't matter whether you add the acid when making the soap or if you add it later. You'll get similar results.



Thank you, it's good to hear this from someone whose expertise I trust. I had thought pH 8 could be better than pH 10, but if it doesn't make a difference then it's probably not worth the effort. And thank you for confirming that soap would definitely break down in the presence of enough acid.

-

Anyway, I use bar soap on my hair to give it more volume. I have naturally very very soft, fine hair, so I rough it up to give it volume. No vinegar rinse. I wouldn't actually recommend it to people who might cherish their hair, but bar soap works well for me!

Since I've added sodium citrate to my hair (edit: NOT MY HAIR I MEANT MY SHAMPOO BARS) I've found shampoo bars to be much nicer and less irritating to my scalp. And dare I say...it does make my hair a bit softer. Not too much. Just enough :mrgreen:


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## WeaversPort (Apr 21, 2017)

aihrat said:


> .. I use bar soap on my hair to give it more volume. I have naturally very very soft, fine hair, so I rough it up to give it volume. No vinegar rinse. I wouldn't actually recommend it to people who might cherish their hair, but bar soap works well for me!
> 
> Since I've added sodium citrate to my hair I've found shampoo bars to be much nicer and less irritating to my scalp. And dare I say...it does make my hair a bit softer. Not too much. Just enough :mrgreen:



I'm fascinated by shampoo bars, even though most people here recommend against them, and I have super fine hair that my hairdresser jokes responds best to controlled damage  

How long have you been using shampoo bars? You add sodium citrate to your hair? How does that work?


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## aihrat (Apr 21, 2017)

WeaversPort said:


> I'm fascinated by shampoo bars, even though most people here recommend against them, and I have super fine hair that my hairdresser jokes responds best to controlled damage
> 
> How long have you been using shampoo bars? You add sodium citrate to your hair? How does that work?



Rats, I meant to say I add sodium citrate to my shampoo bars.

I find shampoo bars fascinating too! And it makes sense that it would make the fine-haired, straight-haired crew quite happy since it's a bit of a cheat to get volume 

There's a a legendary shampoo bar recipe by Genny (link here) that I've been meaning to try after I finish my current batch of bars. I'd probably add sodium citrate to mine, and an egg yolk for lather. It sounds like an amazing recipe for people who like shampoo bars and everyone raves about it so I can't wait to try it!


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## shunt2011 (Apr 21, 2017)

aihrat said:


> Rats, I meant to say I add sodium citrate to my shampoo bars.
> 
> I find shampoo bars fascinating too! And it makes sense that it would make the fine-haired, straight-haired crew quite happy since it's a bit of a cheat to get volume
> 
> There's a a legendary shampoo bar recipe by Genny (link here) that I've been meaning to try after I finish my current batch of bars. I'd probably add sodium citrate to mine, and an egg yolk for lather. It sounds like an amazing recipe for people who like shampoo bars and everyone raves about it so I can't wait to try it!


 
I don't use the recipe linked for shampoo but for a great facial/body bar with a tweak or two.  It's a great soap.


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## aihrat (Apr 21, 2017)

shunt2011 said:


> I don't use the recipe linked for shampoo but for a great facial/body bar with a tweak or two.  It's a great soap.



If you don't mind sharing, what did you tweak to make it more suitable as a bath/body soap?


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## IrishLass (Apr 21, 2017)

I can't speak for Shunt/Shari, but for what it's worth, I too use Genny's shampoo bar recipe as a regular body bar and/or facial soap. The only tweak I've make to mine is that I use high oleic sunflower oil in place of the soybean oil. As far as hardness goes- it does not make a super duper rock-hard bar, but it's very gentle and the lather is surprisingly rich and bubbly in spite of not having any coconut oil or any of the other high-bubbling oils in it. It has since usurped the throne that Castile once held as my favorite gentle formula. It doesn't get as hard as a Castile gets after a year of cure, but the lather is so much nicer than my Castile (it bubbles right up in my hand without the need of a washcloth or pouf for friction) and is non-goopy/slimy. 


*Edited to add*- I should mention that I use 5% sugar in it, as well as tetrasodium EDTA, which helps with my hard water issues. 


IrishLass


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## shunt2011 (Apr 21, 2017)

aihrat said:


> If you don't mind sharing, what did you tweak to make it more suitable as a bath/body soap?




I too use sunflower.  I've also used avocado.


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## cmzaha (Apr 25, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Yes, that's true. Commercial Shampoos are made with detergent and other synthetic chemicals. They are referred to as "Syndet" bars. However, within the soap making community, it's "different strokes for different folks". Homemade Shampoo Bars are really a matter of personal choice. Some members, like Shunt, have really bad experiences. Some members, like me, love making homemade shampoo --  bars and liquid, but the homemade stuff takes a bit of getting used to. And rinsing with apple cider vinegar or beer or lemon or lemon/parsley is necessary to get all the soap scum out so the hair doesn't get stiff.  Here's a link that compares homemade shampoo bars to commercial shampoo. (Scroll down)
> 
> http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalv...-chagrin-valley-natural-handmade-shampoo-bars
> :bunny:


Just curious if you have long or short hair. If hair is cut regularly you will not notice the damage happening. Hair is so resilient that it can take a couple of years for the damage to show up. As for using soap on fine hair I would not, fine hair tends to be quite fragile. Here is a good article by Adriana Sassoon about shampoo 
https://adrianasassoon.me/tag/history-of-shampoo/
Just remember, damaged hair cannot really be fixed since it is dead. We can add band-aids such as conditions that will absorb but they do not "Fix" the hair. You just cannot fix "Dead"


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 25, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> Just curious if you have long or short hair. If hair is cut regularly you will not notice the damage happening. Hair is so resilient that it can take a couple of years for the damage to show up. As for using soap on fine hair I would not, fine hair tends to be quite fragile. Here is a good article by Adriana Sassoon about shampoo
> https://adrianasassoon.me/tag/history-of-shampoo/
> Just remember, damaged hair cannot really be fixed since it is dead. We can add band-aids such as conditions that will absorb but they do not "Fix" the hair. You just cannot fix "Dead"


Thank you for your concern, Carolyn. No worries... I'm 74 and I think I'll be dead before my hair is! LOL I have fine, dark ash brown, "virgin" hair with a bit of a natural wave... sometimes short; sometimes long. I don't use product on it and I rarely use a hair dryer. I must be an exception cuz far from being "dead", my hair looks and feels healthy. Sometimes I can't keep myself from running my fingers thru it, it feels so silky. LOL When we visited my brother & SIL in Phoenix a few months ago, she didn't believe my hair wasn't colored. She used to be a hairdresser and she raised an eyebrow when I told her it was my natural color. Then she gave me a good squint! LOL She's a year younger than I am. Her hair is pure white. We both use argan oil for shine and control.


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## cmzaha (Apr 26, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Thank you for your concern, Carolyn. No worries... I'm 74 and I think I'll be dead before my hair is! LOL I have fine, dark ash brown, "virgin" hair with a bit of a natural wave... sometimes short; sometimes long. I don't use product on it and I rarely use a hair dryer. I must be an exception cuz far from being "dead", my hair looks and feels healthy. Sometimes I can't keep myself from running my fingers thru it, it feels so silky. LOL When we visited my brother & SIL in Phoenix a few months ago, she didn't believe my hair wasn't colored. She used to be a hairdresser and she raised an eyebrow when I told her it was my natural color. Then she gave me a good squint! LOL She's a year younger than I am. Her hair is pure white. We both use argan oil for shine and control.


Yeah, someone older than me!!   I am 68 and my hair is silver platinum, I gave up coloring it years ago. Being a former hairdresser it is still hard for me to accept the gray/platinum, but I actually had a gal refuse to color my hair a few years ago. I was at a market and the salon had a booth next to me so we started chatting. Told her I was contemplating re-coloring and she told me in no un-certain terms not to touch it.  LOL, I still color my mom's at 91...

A former customer of mine was in here late 70's and still had chestnut curly hair without a hint of gray. It was very sad when chemo got her gorgeous hair but I assured her it would come back dark and it did.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 26, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> I still color my mom's at 91...


Oh, that's funny! Moms do have their way with us, don't they?



> A former customer of mine was in here late 70's and still had chestnut  curly hair without a hint of gray. It was very sad when chemo got her  gorgeous hair but I assured her it would come back dark and it did.


Wow! I can't help but think we must be related... or it's just good genes.


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