# Preservatives



## LoryLu

Hi Group!

I was asked by a company that I currently make cp soap for if I could also make them liquid soap for their products.  I’m like...sure!! It’s prolly not that hard!!  .....‍‍‍

Haha so I’ve been making lots of LS and I’m getting it down.  Because this is eventually going to be sold to the public, I’m thinking I should have a preservative in there..?? The company is Organic and all natural, so I have to abide by those standards.  I tried adding citric acid at dilution unsuccessfully a few times.  
What are the pros opinions..?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Bacterial infections are totally organic and all natural, so that's a win for the company!

Seriously, though - a bit of a good quality preservative verses the risk of some nasties (but natural nasties) growing in there? That's not a hard choice.


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## Susie

I'm with Craig on this.  The only way I would sell liquid soap without a preservative to the public would be to have no more than 6 oz and have a 6 month expiration date on it.  Period.  I would not feel completely comfortable doing so, however.


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## Kamahido

There is currently no effective natural preservative on the market. Sadly, your only options are to offer a liquid soap with a synthetic preservative, or offer a liquid soap that may grow all-natural mold or bacteria.


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## lsg

I agree with the above posters.  I would not use a liquid or cream soap that doesn't contain a preservative; and I certainly would not sell or share cream or liquid soap that doesn't contain a preservative.  You can open yourself up to litigation if a customer develops a rash or skin infection using the product.


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## LoryLu

I get it, I get it...So what would you all recommend for a preservative..??  And I assume citric acid is not a soap preservative..


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'm curious as to why it would be thought to be so


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## lsg

Liquid Germall Plus is a good preservative to use in formulas which contain water.  Citric acid is used to adjust  pH.  It is not a preservative.


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## Sultana

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Bacterial infections are totally organic and all natural, so that's a win for the company!
> 
> Seriously, though - a bit of a good quality preservative verses the risk of some nasties (but natural nasties) growing in there? That's not a hard choice.


Natural nasties can still kill someone. Especially those with certain health conditions. The fact one would use the word "natural" with a potential health and well being issue is disturbing.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Don't take me the wrong way - I don't like when people want something "all natural" over something good. Natural does not always mean good, and as you say, many natural things can kill you. 

Natural can be pretty terrible, so I will take a good unnatural preservative over some natural but dangerous bacteria any day

My highlight on the natural nasties part was to make that clear - things that can kill are also natural, not that I think that they are good.


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## reeeen4

To be honest I would prefer to buy a soap that has a risk of growing mould over a preservative, liquid soap gets used so fast in my house with so many dirty boys in the house that it doesn't last long enough to get mouldy.
I'm more concerned about the effects of preservatives on my body over long term use, yes it's great that they kill bateria and inhibit mould but if they are strong enough to do that then they will be strong enough to effect your skin in a negative way surely. You read a lot of things about various preservatives causing oxidative DNA damage, endocrine disruption and potentially adding to your risk of cancer, who knows how much of it is true but it is still concering.

People talk about having a responsibility to their customers to keep them safe from infection and mould but what about safe from the health effects of long term use of your product that contains a preservative, preservitives that every year of scientific research seems to keep uncovering more dangers, for example a while ago people though parabens (used in many cosmetic and personal care products) were reletively safe, but now they have been proven to have endocrine disruption effects, same with Phthalates (found in fragrances, hair products, skin lotions, nail polish and nail hardeners) now they have been linked with endometriosis and early puberty in girls, and reproductive organ abnormalities and reduced fertility in males. Or Triclosan which is a preservative and antibacterial agent found in personal care products such as antiperspirant, soap, hand wash and toothpaste. Tests have shown endocrine disruptor effects. (read more here)

My point is that right now they are saying that these chemicals are reletively safe in low doses in the future, when these chemicals have been in use for many decades and/or more rigorous studies have been conducted, some long-term detrimental effects may be discovered for ingredients currently accepted as safe. So do you think you could live with yourself if you found out the preservitive you have used in your products has contributed to some of your clients health issues, allergies, medical problems and possibly worse? not saying it's going to, but if it somehow did how would you feel?

Not saying natural is better either, some natural occuring things can kill you too.

I'm sure some people with dissagree with this but this is my opinion and just some food for thought!!

While liquid germal definitly seems safer then alot of other preservatives you might still want to research each individual ingredient to be sure about it and make sure your comfortable with it.
Liquid Germal Contains:
Diazolidinyl Urea
Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate
Propylene Glycol


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## kasilofchrisn

reeeen4 said:


> My point is that right now they are saying that these chemicals are reletively safe in low doses in the future, when these chemicals have been in use for many decades and/or more rigorous studies have been conducted, some long-term detrimental effects may be discovered for ingredients currently accepted as safe. So do you think you could live with yourself if you found out the preservitive you have used in your products has contributed to some of your clients health issues, allergies, medical problems and possibly worse? not saying it's going to, but if it somehow did how would you feel?



I think your question goes both ways.
How would you feel knowing someone used your soap that they stored awhile, against  your warnings, and had turned  moldy and they got sick? What if they washed a cut with it which became infected and resulted in a lost limb?
I think the odds are better that the mold gets them before the preservative does.

I'm relatively new to preservatives so really can't offer much to the OP other than I recommend using one for liquid soaps and lotions.


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## reeeen4

I also agree with that too, which is why I'm having such a hard time deciding whether to incorporate preservatives in some of my products of not! 

It's easy to tailor something to my family (not putting preservatives in my liquid soap since we use it so fast) but hard with other people!

I feel your pain @LoryLu I'm going through the same decision, my market is mosty organic and health concious people so it's not an easy one! but I'm interested to see what you decide.


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## lenarenee

I went through the fear of preservatives a few years ago.  I took the time to really investigate some of them - reading some of the actual studies. 
I don't remember the specifics, but decided the cons of NOT using preservative far outweighed using them.

Many of the studies had issues - such as using massive amounts of the ingredients in rodents. Literally...in, as in they ingested the preservative instead of testing it topically.  Some results were considered inconclusive - but the internet changed that to "dangerous" simply because the study was done. Then - there's the whole assumption that if it happens in rodents then it must happen in humans, right?  (uh, no!)  There were other issues too but off the top of my head can't remember them.

I came away with the belief it was far better to use preservatives than not. (I remember when commercial liquid soap first  came out in decorative bottles that our boys loved - we refilled those things for YEARS without ever so much as rinsing them out, added water to try to make the last drops last longer, etc.! It never occurred to me that soap bottles get dirty too!) If I sold products - I would absolutely use proper systems of preservative and have products challenge tested. You never know how people will misuse them!

Btw, if you sell - have your products challenge tested.  Anything less is extremely irresponsible. 

I make liquid soap for ourselves - don't even give it away. I DON'T preserve it for personal use. I do refrigerate the paste, and only dilute what I need to fill our bottles. I re-use the bottles too - which we're not supposed to. But I use a bleach solution to disinfect them after a thorough scrubbing.

The internet is filled with  half-baked, half-truths and outright rumor  disguised as truth and being passed around for free.  It's a lot of time and work to dig deep enough to find the truth, but it might be worth it for you.


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## lenarenee

Okay, now that I gave you the "nice" reply to your preservative conundrum, here's what I really think:  it's foolish to not use preservatives.  This is what happens.  (this was a lotion that did contain preservatives - except they were not the correct ones. The black strings were 2 inches long. The pump became clogged with them.  I bought this lotion from a top seller on Amazon. I applied the lotion at night, in a darkened bedroom and wasn't paying attention. But the following night I was wide awake and saw this.....!


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## lenarenee

And this.*   Bacteria, mold and other microbes can be rampant in your product yet completely invisible.  By the time it becomes THIS visible the product is wholly contaminated and dangerous.
*
Imagine smearing that on your children. This is not a wash off product like soap.

 (sorry admins, but I thought the full image was better for clarity)


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## reeeen4

Ergh that's horrid! Hmmm this is why I think I'm going to stick to things that don't need water like solid and dry things like shampoo bars, bath bombs or bath salts etc. so I can avoid this but also avoid having to use preservatives.


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## Sultana

reeeen4 said:


> To be honest I would prefer to buy a soap that has a risk of growing mould over a preservative, liquid soap gets used so fast in my house with so many dirty boys in the house that it doesn't last long enough to get mouldy.
> I'm more concerned about the effects of preservatives on my body over long term use, yes it's great that they kill bateria and inhibit mould but if they are strong enough to do that then they will be strong enough to effect your skin in a negative way surely. You read a lot of things about various preservatives causing oxidative DNA damage, endocrine disruption and potentially adding to your risk of cancer, who knows how much of it is true but it is still concering.
> 
> People talk about having a responsibility to their customers to keep them safe from infection and mould but what about safe from the health effects of long term use of your product that contains a preservative, preservitives that every year of scientific research seems to keep uncovering more dangers, for example a while ago people though parabens (used in many cosmetic and personal care products) were reletively safe, but now they have been proven to have endocrine disruption effects, same with Phthalates (found in fragrances, hair products, skin lotions, nail polish and nail hardeners) now they have been linked with endometriosis and early puberty in girls, and reproductive organ abnormalities and reduced fertility in males. Or Triclosan which is a preservative and antibacterial agent found in personal care products such as antiperspirant, soap, hand wash and toothpaste. Tests have shown endocrine disruptor effects. (read more here)
> 
> My point is that right now they are saying that these chemicals are reletively safe in low doses in the future, when these chemicals have been in use for many decades and/or more rigorous studies have been conducted, some long-term detrimental effects may be discovered for ingredients currently accepted as safe. So do you think you could live with yourself if you found out the preservitive you have used in your products has contributed to some of your clients health issues, allergies, medical problems and possibly worse? not saying it's going to, but if it somehow did how would you feel?
> 
> Not saying natural is better either, some natural occuring things can kill you too.
> 
> I'm sure some people with dissagree with this but this is my opinion and just some food for thought!!
> 
> While liquid germal definitly seems safer then alot of other preservatives you might still want to research each individual ingredient to be sure about it and make sure your comfortable with it.
> Liquid Germal Contains:
> Diazolidinyl Urea
> Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate
> Propylene Glycol



If you look at the order of how ingredients are listed on a label you will notice that the preservatives are near the end because of how little is in the product. Then look and see how far up the list the possible rancid oils etc are on the list. Goggle health effects of rancid oils in products. You might change your mind.  As far as Propylene Glycol the dangers of that have been greatly enhanced. Many companies put out that Propylene Glycol IS antifreeze and it is not. It is an ingredient in antifreeze. That doesn't mean it is all bad.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

And it's always a percentage of a percentage. 1% of my lotion is preservative. How much of that 1% might bad for you? Say 50% just for fun. So 0.5% of the lotion might be bad for you. How much of that is able to pass in to us in a way that allows that 0.5% to actually have a chance to do dangerous things? And how much lotion do you use? 

By the time you are done calculating, mould has grown in the unpreserved lotions........


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## cmzaha

Sultana said:


> If you look at the order of how ingredients are listed on a label you will notice that the preservatives are near the end because of how little is in the product. Then look and see how far up the list the possible rancid oils etc are on the list. Goggle health effects of rancid oils in products. You might change your mind.  As far as Propylene Glycol the dangers of that have been greatly enhanced. Many companies put out that Propylene Glycol IS antifreeze and it is not. It is an ingredient in antifreeze. That doesn't mean it is all bad.


They started using Propylene Glycol in antifreeze to replace the original ingredient (I do not remember what it was), to make it safer and not kill animals especially dogs if they were to like up some antifreeze.

I would much rather have 1% or so of preservative and not risk the possibility of Blood Infection or Sepsis due to an infection through a scratch after using a contaminated lotion. I have actually gone back to using PhenoNip more often, since it is still the most reliable preservative.


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## lsg

Propylen glycol  is a routine treatment for ketosis in dairy cows.  It is given orally or included in feed. You can buy it at your farm store. If propylene glycol was so harmful, then the FDA would be after dairymen to stop using it.


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## earlene

reeeen4 said:


> To be honest I would prefer to buy a soap that has a risk of growing mould over a preservative, liquid soap gets used so fast in my house with so many dirty boys in the house that it doesn't last long enough to get mouldy.
> I'm more concerned about the effects of preservatives on my body over long term use, yes it's great that they kill bateria and inhibit mould but if they are strong enough to do that then they will be strong enough to effect your skin in a negative way surely. You read a lot of things about various preservatives causing oxidative DNA damage, endocrine disruption and potentially adding to your risk of cancer, who knows how much of it is true but it is still concering.
> 
> People talk about having a responsibility to their customers to keep them safe from infection and mould but what about safe from the health effects of long term use of your product that contains a preservative, preservitives that every year of scientific research seems to keep uncovering more dangers, for example a while ago people though parabens (used in many cosmetic and personal care products) were reletively safe, but now they have been proven to have endocrine disruption effects, same with Phthalates (found in fragrances, hair products, skin lotions, nail polish and nail hardeners) now they have been linked with endometriosis and early puberty in girls, and reproductive organ abnormalities and reduced fertility in males. Or Triclosan which is a preservative and antibacterial agent found in personal care products such as antiperspirant, soap, hand wash and toothpaste. Tests have shown endocrine disruptor effects. (read more here)
> 
> My point is that right now they are saying that these chemicals are reletively safe in low doses in the future, when these chemicals have been in use for many decades and/or more rigorous studies have been conducted, some long-term detrimental effects may be discovered for ingredients currently accepted as safe. So do you think you could live with yourself if you found out the preservitive you have used in your products has contributed to some of your clients health issues, allergies, medical problems and possibly worse? not saying it's going to, but if it somehow did how would you feel?
> 
> Not saying natural is better either, some natural occuring things can kill you too.
> 
> I'm sure some people with dissagree with this but this is my opinion and just some food for thought!!
> 
> While liquid germal definitly seems safer then alot of other preservatives you might still want to research each individual ingredient to be sure about it and make sure your comfortable with it.
> Liquid Germal Contains:
> Diazolidinyl Urea
> Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate
> Propylene Glycol




I see your points, but to be fair, sellers MUST think of the potential customers and what their education level may or may not be when it comes to buying/using/storing soap.   I have known people who think soap is 'by definition' always clean and expect it to remain so under all conditions.  There are people who hoard soap and would never toss away a bottle of liquid soap even if you put an expiration date on it.   And there are plenty of people whose eyesight is not good enough to see even the most obvious yuckies growing in/on their soap.  Then there are people with dementia or other medically compromising conditions who may not have the wherewithall to determine if the product is still safe and just go ahead and use it.  These are the kinds of people a seller has to consider.  Not all of our customers (not mine, I don't sell) are as savvy as the average soap or Bath & Body product maker.


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## reeeen4

earlene said:


> I see your points, but to be fair, sellers MUST think of the potential customers and what their education level may or may not be when it comes to buying/using/storing soap.   I have known people who think soap is 'by definition' always clean and expect it to remain so under all conditions.  There are people who hoard soap and would never toss away a bottle of liquid soap even if you put an expiration date on it.   And there are plenty of people whose eyesight is not good enough to see even the most obvious yuckies growing in/on their soap.  Then there are people with dementia or other medically compromising conditions who may not have the wherewithall to determine if the product is still safe and just go ahead and use it.  These are the kinds of people a seller has to consider.  Not all of our customers (not mine, I don't sell) are as savvy as the average soap or Bath & Body product maker.


Yep I can definitely see that argument too, such a hard decision when you sell since your liable for all these potential issues.


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## Zany_in_CO

Majority of One here. I've said it before and I'll say it again, with all due respect to my colleagues.  _Fully saponified soap requires no preservative_ because nasties don't survive in an alkaline (pH over 7.5) environment.  Finished LS is usually pH 9-11.

NOTE: Using lotion to serve as an example for liquid soap is like comparing oranges and apples. Lenarenee's example of yucky lotion above, DOES require a preservative -- most lotions are acidic (below pH 7)  and even if you're making a small batch for personal use, don't forget the preservative. It can make you sick -- even before the nasties show up in the product.

I've been making LS since 2004 and I do not use a preservative, nor do the commercial sellers on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo group. (I'm just sayin'). I do, however, use antioxidants ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) and Vitamin E  in every batch.

Well known and not-so-well-known commercial natural/organic liquid soaps on the market do not use preservatives, not only for the reasons *reeeen4* mentioned above I suspect, but because it simply isn't necessary. Examples:

Vermont Soap - Foaming Hand Soap
http://www.vermontsoap.com/foamer.shtml
_Ingredients: Saponified organic olive, coconut and jojoba oils, vegetable glycerin, organic aloe vera and rosemary extract._
NOTE: Contains no preservative but does use antioxidant ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) -- an excellent alternative to using preservatives.

Dr. Bronner's http://www.drbronner.com/DBMS/LS.htm
Pure Castile Liquid Soap - Baby Unscented 32oz.
https://tinyurl.com/All-Natural-Castile-Liquid-Soap
_Ingredients: Water, Saponified Organic Coconut*, Organic Palm* and Organic Olive* Oils (w/Retained Glycerin), Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Essential Oils**, Citric Acid, Vitamin E_
NOTE: Contains no preservative but does use antioxidant Vitamin E -- an excellent alternative to using preservatives. The citric acid may contain preservative qualities as well. Dunno. I suspect it's there to prevent scum on the tub & shower walls.

Dr. Woods Pure Almond Castile Soap, 32 Ounce
_Ingredients  Purified Water (Aqua), Saponified Coconut, Hemp and Olive Oils (with retained Glycerin), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Natural Almond Fragrance, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Rosemary (Rosemarinus Officinalis) Extract
_
Oregon Soap Company - Liquid Castile Soap
_Ingredients: cocos nucifera (coconut) oil,* olea europaea (olive) fruit oil,* helianthus annuus (sunflower) seed oil,* potassium hydroxide, aloe barbadensis leaf juice,* citric acid, butyrospermum parkii (shea butter),* rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) flower extract. *organic ingredient_

Carolina Castile Soap
_Ingredients  Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Olive Oil, Kukui Nut Oil, Organic Cocoa Butter, Citric Acid, Potassium Hydroxide (none remains after saponification), Water, Tocopherol (Vitamin E)

Cove Castile Soap & many more that you can find by googling "all natural liquid soap".
_
Not trying to be argumentative, Peeps, I'm just sayin' what I think needs to be said... running away now 



LoryLu said:


> ...Because this is eventually going to be sold to the public, I’m thinking I should have a preservative in there..?? The company is Organic and all natural, so I have to abide by those standards.


Hiya LoryLu,
Here's a link to  a site that has excellent tutorials and other information including Tips & Tricks that you may find useful:

http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/search/label/tutorial


LoryLu said:


> I tried adding citric acid at dilution unsuccessfully a few times.


Did the citric acid "flake out"? If so, warm the diluted LS to 140°F or so and keep stirring slowly to incorporate it. Also, are you using the CA straight? or diluted? A 20% CA dilution is recommended for easier incorporation. You don't need much. I use it at a rate of 0.06% (I think that's correct... I can't access my notes because of a SNAFU on a recent installation of software on my iMac. )

ETA: The addition of citric acid will lower the pH of the soap so be sure to measure the pH before and after to track it. Personally, I would wait 24 hours before deciding whether or not to add more.


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## Meena

Hold the phone:  This preservative discussion is all well and fine for lotions and non-soap products containing water, but isn't it the scientific consensus that the pH of Lye soaps is too high for molds and bacteria??  This includes LS.

ETA:  oh hahahaha  @Zany_in_CO  just brought up the same point.  Hahaha, majority of 2, Zany.


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## lenarenee

No. It's not. The Ph is no guarantee that the microbes have been killed.  Not only are there microbes that thrive in alkaline environments, but bacteria (I don't know about other microbes in this particular instance) can adapt to higher pH in certain conditions, and also be affected by other factors that contribute to their survival despite not normally surviving in a higher pH.  For example;_ the dying microbes themselves can change the pH of the substance they're in. _

We did experiments in lab with agar plates with different levels of pH (all the way up to 10)  Of the 7 different types of bacterial tested - EVERY SINGLE ONE survived in ALL pHs.   Yes, there were different amounts of bacterial growth and not all plates had growth, but we grew bacteria in all alkaline pH levels. (this was a college lab with about 50 students doing the same experiments in teams - so 25 tests of pH 7, 25 tests of pH 8, and so on)
(I'll see if I still have the notes with the specifics class results)

My example about lotion was not comparing apples and oranges.  It was illustrating that the unexpected does happen and it's not as uncommon as we might hope.  That lotion, despite containing 2 preservatives, despite being one of Amazon's top sellers for it's type, despite being a fresh batch, still grew a whole lot of something.  

A couple other things to consider:

 it's legal in the US to "hide" your preservative in other ingredients, which means they won't have to listed on the label.  The commercial labels can be deceptive.

pH is fickle.  I can change the pH of my aquariums by simply sticking my hand into it.  Shaking a bottle of alkaline water and removing its lid - can change it's pH.   

I've never done it, nor cared to, but testing the pH of soap is complicated, and requires better equipment than pH strips. So if someone wants to sell liquid soap and bet on the pH being your savior from liability, you'll be wise to find out the most accurate way to do so. 

*Most importantly:* you never know how a customer is going to treat that soap. I used to add water to the last 1/2 inch of soap, shake it, and try to get through the day without needing to run to the store for more.  I opened the container - exposing it to air, added city water - which contains microbes, and added water. Now, we still have our fingers and hands, so seems like nothing happened. But we also didn't use liquid soap to clean any injured hands (liquid soap was only in the powder room where we didn't keep the first aid).

I don't preserve the soap I make and use. It's stored in sanitized containers and refrigerated. Small batches. I re-use the pumps, but also soap them in a Clorox solution first.   If I sold liquid soap, I would use a preservative. (geez, does that mean it would have to be challenge tested like lotion? If so, then I wouldn't sell)


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## SaltedFig

Zany_in_CO said:


> Majority of One here. I've said it before and I'll say it again, with all due respect to my colleagues.  _Fully saponified soap requires no preservative_ because nasties don't survive in an alkaline (pH over 7.5) environment.  Finished LS is usually pH 9-11.
> 
> NOTE: Using lotion to serve as an example for liquid soap is like comparing oranges and apples. Lenarenee's example of yucky lotion above, DOES require a preservative -- most lotions are acidic (below pH 7)  and even if you're making a small batch for personal use, don't forget the preservative. It can make you sick -- even before the nasties show up in the product.
> 
> I've been making LS since 2004 and I do not use a preservative, nor do the commercial sellers on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo group. (I'm just sayin'). I do, however, use antioxidants ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) and Vitamin E  in every batch.
> 
> Well known and not-so-well-known commercial natural/organic liquid soaps on the market do not use preservatives, not only for the reasons *reeeen4* mentioned above I suspect, but because it simply isn't necessary. Examples:
> 
> Vermont Soap - Foaming Hand Soap
> http://www.vermontsoap.com/foamer.shtml
> _Ingredients: Saponified organic olive, coconut and jojoba oils, vegetable glycerin, organic aloe vera and rosemary extract._
> NOTE: Contains no preservative but does use antioxidant ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract) -- an excellent alternative to using preservatives.
> 
> Dr. Bronner's http://www.drbronner.com/DBMS/LS.htm
> Pure Castile Liquid Soap - Baby Unscented 32oz.
> https://tinyurl.com/All-Natural-Castile-Liquid-Soap
> _Ingredients: Water, Saponified Organic Coconut*, Organic Palm* and Organic Olive* Oils (w/Retained Glycerin), Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Essential Oils**, Citric Acid, Vitamin E_
> NOTE: Contains no preservative but does use antioxidant Vitamin E -- an excellent alternative to using preservatives. The citric acid may contain preservative qualities as well. Dunno. I suspect it's there to prevent scum on the tub & shower walls.
> 
> Dr. Woods Pure Almond Castile Soap, 32 Ounce
> _Ingredients  Purified Water (Aqua), Saponified Coconut, Hemp and Olive Oils (with retained Glycerin), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Natural Almond Fragrance, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Rosemary (Rosemarinus Officinalis) Extract
> _
> Oregon Soap Company - Liquid Castile Soap
> _Ingredients: cocos nucifera (coconut) oil,* olea europaea (olive) fruit oil,* helianthus annuus (sunflower) seed oil,* potassium hydroxide, aloe barbadensis leaf juice,* citric acid, butyrospermum parkii (shea butter),* rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) flower extract. *organic ingredient_
> 
> Carolina Castile Soap
> _Ingredients  Organic Coconut Oil, Organic Olive Oil, Kukui Nut Oil, Organic Cocoa Butter, Citric Acid, Potassium Hydroxide (none remains after saponification), Water, Tocopherol (Vitamin E)
> 
> Cove Castile Soap & many more that you can find by googling "all natural liquid soap".
> _
> Not trying to be argumentative, Peeps, I'm just sayin' what I think needs to be said... running away now



You might want to update your links and ingredients lists ... looks like Natricide, which is a broad spectrum preservative that can be listed as a fragrance, is pretty popular ...

Naticide avoids the title preservative (it's INCI ingredient name is "fragrance" or "perfume").
It is described by the manufacturer as a broad spectrum preservative: https://www.sinerga.it/en/raw-materials/products/microbial-inhibitor/naticide

I checked a couple of big brands from your list, and these are the results:

*Dr Bronners:*
Your ingredients list is out of date - a preservative has now been added (the "Natural Almond fragrance", aka Naticide)

Ingredients list as at March 2019: https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap
Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Natural Almond Fragrance, Citric Acid, Tocopherol​
*Dr Woods:*
_"Dr. Woods Pure Almond Castile Soap, 32 Ounce
Ingredients  Purified Water (Aqua), Saponified Coconut, Hemp and Olive Oils (with retained Glycerin), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Natural Almond Fragrance, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Rosemary (Rosemarinus Officinalis) Extract"_​


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## Meena

Found someone here asking about it in 2011:

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/about-naticide-preservative.21975/#post-208098

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/about-naticide-preservative.21975/#post-208144

Most of the info/sales of it is coming from the UK.  It may be less familiar in the U.S.?

https://naturallybalmy.co.uk/products/naticide

"Naticide is an exciting natural preservative, made from essential oil compounds, which also acts as a fragrance - making this a 2-in-1 product!

Naticide is a Trade name and not acceptable for use on your product labels ingredient list. The correct INCI name for your label, when using Naticide is Parfum or Fragrance. This means, you can technically describe your product as preservative-free!

Naticide is a vegetable-based preservative with a Vanilla and Almond aroma used to preserve cosmetic formulations, providing good product stability and resistance to microbial contamination."

"- Inhibits bacterial growth in your cosmetic formulations.
- It does not contain allergens included in the Official Journal of the European Union; therefore it is considered to be a non-irritant.
- *You may be able to include Naticide in your organic cosmetic formulations, please contact an approved organic certifier for further information*."

Also found:

Need a Natural Preservative? Try Naticide from Sinerga
Harvey M. Fishman, Consultant
02.05.09

These days, marketing people are constantly looking for a natural antimicrobial that does not have to be listed as a preservative, so they can call the product “preservative free.” ...   There is such an ingredient manufactured by Sinerga, an Italian company.The ingredient is marketed under the name Naticide, which is distributed in the U.S. by Ingredimax, which is based in Washington, N.J.

[Meena's *Note*: _2009 article, not sure if this is still the distributor, and also not sure if this product is still in use or favor_.]

Naticide is a vegetable-based fragrance (INCI: Fragrance). It is a clear liquid, colorless to amber yellow, with an almond and vanilla odor. Up to 0.6% is dispersible in water, with complete solubility in glycol and alcohol.It is not an eye or skin irritant or a skin sensitizer.

It showed *good anti-microbial activity against the following organisms: two gram positive bacteria, six gram negative bacteria including E coli and Pseudomonas aeruginasae, two yeasts including Candida albicans, and three molds including Aspergilus niger and flavus.*

The Sole Preservative
When formulating with Naticide, 0.3-1% is the suggested dosage, depending on the type of formula. It should be added with vigorous stirring.

In an emulsion, part is added to the water phase, and the rest to the oil phase. For example, if 1% Naticide is to be used, only a maximum of 0.6% can be dispersed in the water phase.The other 0.4% is added to the oil phase, or it may be solubilized before adding to the aqueous portion. The recommended pH range is between 4 and 9."

Conclusion:
I would be willing to try this stuff, which opens up the area of lotions for me now.  I am not willing to use the other common products (GermAll, etc).  I consider myself a committed organic consumer with very few exceptions.

Side note: I do not use any preservatives or *-cides in my LS, and I do not sell or even give away anything.


----------



## cmzaha

I have had LS grow mold so I alway preserve it


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Naticide! Who knew?! Not me, that's for sure. ILST (I Learned Something Today) Thank you all. I'm taking notes. Interesting, though, that the INCI is "Fragrance" and not the  constituents that give it preservative qualities. Hmmm ????

ETA: Just an FYI. I'm not saying anything one way or another. Assuming that one of the constituents of Naticide is Bitter Almond Essential Oil (NOT sweet almond oil), I did a quick search. Here's what I found (interesting):



> *Bitter Almond Essential Oil (as Fragrance)*
> _Nutty-sweet with notes of cherry, our Bitter Almond essential oil is a delightful addition to any perfumer’s aromatic palette. Unlike its cousin the Sweet Almond and the extract of almonds, Bitter Almonds naturally contain traces of prussic acid (also known as hydrogen cyanide)..._





> *Bitter Almond Essential Oil (as Preservative)*
> _Caution: Hydrogen cyanide is a deadly poison and so are glycoside amygdalin and benzaldehyde. So, extreme care should be taken in case of both internal and external applications. A small mistake or overdose can be fatal._



OT: Quick TIP to Newbies: When quoting sources from the internet, even if considered "public domain", a bit of Netiquette, aka 'Self Policing' is recommended.  To avoid "Copyright Infringement" laws, and to show respect to the author, rather than copy & paste large blocks of text, use your own words and add a link to the source; or do as I did above -- putting 1-3 sentences in quotes and adding the link (to read more) is considered acceptable. 

FYI: To quote a bit of text, look at the formatting menu at the top. Find the smiley face, then go 3 icons to the right for the "quotes" icon -- looks like a flag.


----------



## Sultana

earlene said:


> I see your points, but to be fair, sellers MUST think of the potential customers and what their education level may or may not be when it comes to buying/using/storing soap.   I have known people who think soap is 'by definition' always clean and expect it to remain so under all conditions.  There are people who hoard soap and would never toss away a bottle of liquid soap even if you put an expiration date on it.   And there are plenty of people whose eyesight is not good enough to see even the most obvious yuckies growing in/on their soap.  Then there are people with dementia or other medically compromising conditions who may not have the wherewithall to determine if the product is still safe and just go ahead and use it.  These are the kinds of people a seller has to consider.  Not all of our customers (not mine, I don't sell) are as savvy as the average soap or Bath & Body product maker.




look up the health risks of using rancid soap, or using moldy or bacterial laced products


----------



## SaltedFig

Zany_in_CO said:


> Naticide! Who knew?! Not me, that's for sure. ILST (I Learned Something Today) Thank you all. I'm taking notes. Interesting, though, that the INCI is "Fragrance" and not the  constituents that give it preservative qualities. Hmmm ????
> ETA: Just an FYI. I'm not saying anything one way or another. Assuming that one of the constituents of Naticide is Bitter Almond Essential Oil (NOT sweet almond oil), I did a quick search. Here's what I found (interesting):



Naticide is a synthetic preservative (as can be seen in the link to the manufacturers page in my earlier post)
It does not contain Bitter Almond essential oil.

The reason it must be listed as a perfume or fragrance is because the preservative is not listed on the European list of preservatives (so it is not allowed to be listed as a preservative). Apparently it is cost prohibitive to get a new preservative on the list, and given the current climate, I believe that having an INCI that does not use the word "preservative" might be popular in some quarters (I'm not saying I agree with this way of doing things, purely pointing out that it occurs).


----------



## earlene

cmzaha said:


> I have had LS grow mold so I alway preserve it



What preservative do you recommend for LS, *cmzaha*?  I have considered using some for my own personal use for my Liquid Shaving soap.  Simply because the idea of cutting myself shaving would be an invitation to infection if something were to grow in my LS. 

TO the rest of the thread readers:

Speaking of not knowing what people do with the LS after it leaves you?  Well, I'll tell you what my DIL does to extend the life of her dish soap:  She adds water to it and thins it down so much that it squirts out of the bottle like a rocket.  She also does this with other liquids (facial products, cleaning solutions, etc.)  And my guess is that my DIL is not alone in this habit of extending the life of liquid soaps of all sorts; I believe it is probably a common enough practice in people who grew up learning and needing to be as frugal as possible.  Some old habits die hard, and some never die in spite of improved financial circumstances.  And if their financial circumstances are sketchy, then all the more reason to attempt to extend the life of their product by adding a little water to it now and then.

So knowing what I know now, if I were selling LS or any other liquid product, not only would I add a preservative, but I would also add to the label a warning such as:  "To maintain full effectiveness, Do not dilute this product." Or words to that effect.


----------



## Sapo

SaltedFig said:


> You might want to update your links and ingredients lists ... looks like Natricide, which is a broad spectrum preservative that can be listed as a fragrance, is pretty popular ...
> 
> Naticide avoids the title preservative (it's INCI ingredient name is "fragrance" or "perfume").
> It is described by the manufacturer as a broad spectrum preservative: https://www.sinerga.it/en/raw-materials/products/microbial-inhibitor/naticide
> 
> I checked a couple of big brands from your list, and these are the results:
> 
> *Dr Bronners:*
> Your ingredients list is out of date - a preservative has now been added (the "Natural Almond fragrance", aka Naticide)
> 
> Ingredients list as at March 2019: https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap
> Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Natural Almond Fragrance, Citric Acid, Tocopherol​
> *Dr Woods:*
> _"Dr. Woods Pure Almond Castile Soap, 32 Ounce
> Ingredients  Purified Water (Aqua), Saponified Coconut, Hemp and Olive Oils (with retained Glycerin), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Natural Almond Fragrance, Sea Salt, Citric Acid, Rosemary (Rosemarinus Officinalis) Extract"_​



You're wrong.

None of the Bronner's soaps contain a preservative. You picked the only product they have that does not use EOs for scent (therefore the only possible one that could have hidden Naticide) and claimed that Natural Almond Fragrance=Naticide, when it is likelier* (natural) benzaldehyde (proof below).

Their soap ingredients:
Peppermint:
Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Mentha Arvensis, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Mentha Piperita, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Peppermint

German (for reassurance that they aren't bypassing any loose laws from the US):
Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Mentha Arvensis Oil (Ackerminzöl), Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Mentha Piperita Oil (Pfefferminzöl), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Limonene◊

Lavender:
Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Lavandin Extract, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Lavender Extract, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Lavender

German: Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Lavandula Hybrida Oil (Lavandinöl*), Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Lavandula Angustifolia Oil (Lavendelöl*), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Coumarin◊, Geraniol◊, Limonene◊, Linalool◊

Almond:
Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Natural Almond Fragrance, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Almond

German:
Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Parfum (natürliches Mandelaroma), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E)

As evident, they use nothing of the sort.

*Now to explain why it is likelier benzaldehyde than Naticide:
First, why would they preserve their Almond scent but not the others? Second; before the label wording change, which was likely done for customer appeal (natural almond fragrance sounds better than benzaldehyde), the below was the label-benzaldehyde is visible. And third: Naticide can be labeled as Fragrance or Parfum, but probably not something as specific as Parfum (Natural almond fragrance).






LS as is and by itself requires no preservation, data from the global sales and success of this (and others like it) product would suggest. Quite right about the fact that consumers may wrongly use the product and create a need for preservation, though.


----------



## SaltedFig

Sapo said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> None of the Bronner's soaps contain a preservative. You picked the only product they have that does not use EOs for scent (therefore the only possible one that could have hidden Naticide) and claimed that Natural Almond Fragrance=Naticide, when it is likelier* (natural) benzaldehyde (proof below).
> 
> Their soap ingredients:
> Peppermint:
> Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Mentha Arvensis, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Mentha Piperita, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
> https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Peppermint
> 
> German (for reassurance that they aren't bypassing any loose laws from the US):
> Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Mentha Arvensis Oil (Ackerminzöl), Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Mentha Piperita Oil (Pfefferminzöl), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Limonene◊
> 
> Lavender:
> Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Lavandin Extract, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Lavender Extract, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
> https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Lavender
> 
> German: Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Lavandula Hybrida Oil (Lavandinöl*), Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Lavandula Angustifolia Oil (Lavendelöl*), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Coumarin◊, Geraniol◊, Limonene◊, Linalool◊
> 
> Almond:
> Water, Organic Coconut Oil*, Potassium Hydroxide**, Organic Palm Kernel Oil*, Organic Olive Oil*, Organic Hemp Oil, Organic Jojoba Oil, Natural Almond Fragrance, Citric Acid, Tocopherol
> https://shop.drbronner.com/pure-castile-liquid-soap#scent=Almond
> 
> German:
> Aqua, Potassium Cocoate (Verseiftes Kokosöl*‡), Potassium Palm Kernelate (Verseiftes Palmkernöl*‡), Potassium Olivate (Verseiftes Olivenöl*‡), Glycerin*, Potassium Hempate (Verseiftes Hanföl*), Potassium Jojobate (Verseiftes Jojobaöl*), Parfum (natürliches Mandelaroma), Citric Acid (Zitronensäure), Tocopherol (Vitamin E)
> 
> As evident, they use nothing of the sort.
> 
> *Now to explain why it is likelier benzaldehyde than Naticide:
> First, why would they preserve their Almond scent but not the others? Second; before the label wording change, which was likely done for customer appeal (natural almond fragrance sounds better than benzaldehyde), the below was the label-benzaldehyde is visible. And third: Naticide can be labeled as Fragrance or Parfum, but probably not something as specific as Parfum (Natural almond fragrance).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LS as is and by itself requires no preservation, data from the global sales and success of this (and others like it) product would suggest. Quite right about the fact that consumers may wrongly use the product and create a need for preservation, though.



_"You're wrong.

None of the Bronner's soaps contain a preservative. You picked the only product they have that does not use EOs for scent (therefore the only possible one that could have hidden Naticide) and claimed that Natural Almond Fragrance=Naticide, when it is likelier* (natural) benzaldehyde (proof below)."_

No, I did not pick the product, it is the ingredient list that is displayed when the liquid castile soap page is loaded.
(Not being a Dr Bronner buyer, I didn't even notice that it had some coloured dots to the side for different scents)
Looking at their "baby unscented" coloured dot, it does not include an obvious preservative.

_*Now to explain why it is likelier benzaldehyde than Naticide:
First, why would they preserve their Almond scent but not the others? Second; before the label wording change, which was likely done for customer appeal (natural almond fragrance sounds better than benzaldehyde), the below was the label-benzaldehyde is visible. And third: Naticide can be labeled as Fragrance or Parfum, but probably not something as specific as Parfum (Natural almond fragrance)._

Thank you for pointing out the benzaldehyde.
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/benzaldehyde


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Sapo said:


> LS as is and by itself requires no preservation, data from the global sales and success of this (and others like it) product would suggest. Quite right about the fact that consumers may wrongly use the product and create a need for preservation, though.


Thank you for your post, Sapo. That's exactly the point I was trying to make in the first place, but you said it so much better (and succinctly) than I could.






LoryLu said:


> ...  Because this is eventually going to be sold to the public, I’m thinking I should have a preservative in there..?? The company is Organic and all natural, so I have to abide by those standards.  I tried adding citric acid at dilution unsuccessfully a few times. What are the pros opinions..?


With apologies to LoryLU for the hijack... I think this needs to be said here...

With my over 10 years as an active member on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo Group, which started in 2000, right after Catherine Failor published her book on making LS in 1999,  I learned how important it is to be sure that your paste (soap base) is fully saponified before dilution. JMHO and IME , this is the most common mistake Newbies make... not cooking the soap long enough (HP), or not waiting long enough (CP), until it tests neutral (fully saponified) with pheno drops (my preference), the soap-in-water method or the zap test.

NOTE: Altho the 2-week sequester period (after dilution) has fallen out of favor in recent years, it's still the best time, IMO and IME, to correct any problems that may occur. The sequester allows time for any unsaponified fat to rise to the top or for other stuff to settle on the bottom as sediment -- as in GM LS.

Newbies also tend to use pH testing to see if the paste is "done". However, pH and fully saponified soap are not the same thing. Faith's Tutorials at Alaiyna B's Blogspot is one of the best places to learn how to make LS, IMO and IME. She offers basic info, trial recipes, FAQs, Tips & Tricks and  has good information about the pH factor.

BACK ON TOPIC: She also has an FAQ where she discusses the use of preservatives in Liquid Soap.

HTH  




ETA: LoryLu, I am happy to remove this hijack and start a new thread if you would like me to do that.


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## CherylMoore

[QUOTE=" I applied the lotion at night, in a darkened bedroom and wasn't paying attention. But the following night I was wide awake and saw this.....!

View attachment 37600
[/QUOTE]
Wow, that is disgusting. Scary.


----------



## decisions

Head on over to the liquid soap making group on FB for a very nice explanation of why you still need a preservative in liquid soap -

eta - just because "the big guys" either don't use a preservative or they use one and label it as fragrance or they just don't list it in their ingredients, they can manufacture under sterile conditions while we manufacture under sanitary conditions.


----------



## Andrew

citric acid is not a preservative even though A LOT of people think it is.  it is an acid and it will just break down the soap into sodium citrate and fatty acids.

this is the product you are looking for.  It is the only all natural, plant derived, broad spectrum preservative on the market that i know of..

https://lotioncrafter.com/collections/preservatives/products/phytocide-elderberry-os


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## DeeAnna

That preservative is only  rated for pH of 3 to 8, so is not suitable for liquid soap.


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## Andrew

Good catch,  I meant to link to this one.  this is a powder and is water soluble while the other one was oil soluble for lotions etc..  This one has a pH range up to 9 so that is doable for the lower end of liquid soaps.  

https://lotioncrafter.com/collections/preservatives/products/phytocide-aspen-bark-extract


----------



## LoryLu

Andrew said:


> Good catch,  I meant to link to this one.  this is a powder and is water soluble while the other one was oil soluble for lotions etc..  This one has a pH range up to 9 so that is doable for the lower end of liquid soaps.
> 
> https://lotioncrafter.com/collections/preservatives/products/phytocide-aspen-bark-extract



This is interesting.  I was talking to my father in-law the other day about natural preservatives.  He says...make something outta birch bark, that stuff never rots!  Lol.  Would this be considered an all around preservative? Have you tried this?


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## designline

if PH is 9...12 NOT need preservative!


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## lsg

I think that you will find that is not necessarily true.  Some of us have found that even with cream or liquid soap a preservative is necessary.  This is especially true if you are selling or sharing a product.


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## earlene

LoryLu said:


> This is interesting.  I was talking to my father in-law the other day about natural preservatives.  He says...make something outta birch bark, that stuff never rots!  Lol.  Would this be considered an all around preservative? Have you tried this?



No, it is stable within the pH range of 3 - 8.  See page 12 of this document, linked to the product on the lotioncrafter website: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...05-8b8e-5563e8c82899.pdf?16298877254294914093


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## Mobjack Bay

I try to stay as “natural” as I can when making leave on products, but after seeing photos of all the things that can grow in lotions, I opted for using Germall plus in my emulsified lotions and creams. I believe it is effective over a relatively broad pH range (3-8) if that’s a consideration.  The recommended concentration range in the finished product is 0.1 to 0.5% and I use 0.5% to be safe. My kitchen is not a sterile environment by any stretch of the imagination!  Germall plus is heat sensitive, so I wait until the temperature is below 122 DF to add it to my lotions and creams. I’m making for myself and family and friends, not for sale.


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## Zany_in_CO

decisions said:


> Head on over to the liquid soap making group on FB for a very nice explanation of why you still need a preservative in liquid soap -


I don't mean to sound disrespectful, @decisions, but, maybe you do _"still need a preservative"_, but I don't.  And I've been at it for 14 years now. It all comes down to knowing what you're doing when formulating and processing liquid soap. There certainly are cases out there where some folks fool around with additives or the pH or whatever -- just don't do that! 

I will agree that it's all a matter of personal preference, but I've never really understood why anyone would want to do that. All you have to do is go buy a brand name so-called "natural shampoo" that's 6-months old and contains a preservative -- give it a good sniff. To this date, I've never found one that doesn't fail, or morph, over time.

You're better off buying a syndet -- they are at least safe when it comes to using preservatives.

But that's just me; my experience.


----------



## cmzaha

earlene said:


> What preservative do you recommend for LS, *cmzaha*?  I have considered using some for my own personal use for my Liquid Shaving soap.  Simply because the idea of cutting myself shaving would be an invitation to infection if something were to grow in my LS.


I use Suttocide A, and have some LS that I made a few years ago. It is a very poor to impossible seller for me so I do not make it often. It can turn your product light pink to red if a fragrance or essential oil contains citral.

In my opinion no matter how long someone makes a product does not mean there is not a problem unless it is tested. I just know I have seen mold in the top of the bottle and the bottom of the bottle with unpreserved I have left to keep an eye on. Catherine Failor's method is not necessarily the best today because so many have tested different methods, and knowledge is evolving to make better, safer products.


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## MGM

I have only found mold in one body product in my life (but found some in two different containers of apple juice in two different houses in one week once!): a Trader Joe's fruity face scrub. It was in my shower, with water and dirty fingers in it for months, maybe a year, so it's no shocker. Maybe what is shocking is that it doesn't seem to contain a preservative? My Latin isn't up to snuff....anyone else see a preservative (as opposed to an anti-oxidant) here?

https://www.makeupalley.com/product...ueberry--Acai-Facial-Scrub/Trader-Joes/Scrubs


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## Andrew

Almost no soaps in the artisan wet shaving market contain preservatives and mold is a constant threat.  Although a rare occasion, you do see mold growing on top, in, and underneath the soap in the tubs.  It can and does happen.  Mold and bacteria can grow in some pretty extreme environments including the pH range of soap.  What they need is water.  Since liquid soap has water in it, it is susceptible to contamination.  Contamination can come from the containers themselves, poorly made product, or contamination during bottling.  It also can come from refilling containers.

I think the issue comes down to personal vs. commercial use.  I do not believe that personal use dictates preservatives in liquid soap.  You make it as you need it.  If you are making liquid soap and selling it in an environment where it can sit on the store for months before being bought then adding a preservative would be prudent as a single bad unit can kill sales in a store.  A single batch can be shipped to a dozen stores or more.  If that batch went bad then one would have to issue a recall which is a serious headache.  It may also prevent lawsuits in this unfortunate sue happy time.  

I make 10 gallons of liquid soap at a time.  An all natural preservative can save quite a bit of money if a batch goes bad without harming the brand.  

One other point to consider is how you are scenting the soap.  I use essential oils.  While much pseudoscience is disseminated about various essential oil benefits, one which has been studied, and proved is antibacterial effects of various essential oils.  The short of it is you can use various essential oils both for scent and product preservation.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

DeeAnna said:


> That preservative is only  rated for pH of 3 to 8, so is not suitable for liquid soap.


Exactly. Since preservatives are pH specific, formulated for lotions and creams and like products, and since there is *no* preservative specifically formulated for liquid soap, would it be safe to say that as long as your LS is pH 9 to 11, no preservative is necessary?

As to the point about adding water to liquid soap, I just tested the LS in my foamer. It is fully saponified soap (phenolphthalein drops); diluted at a rate of 40% soap to 60% water; then further diluted at a rate of 1 part soap to 3 parts water. It has a pH 9.5 and no sign of nasties or mold.
I'm just sayin'...


----------



## DeeAnna

Zany_in_CO said:


> ...Since preservatives are pH specific, formulated for lotions and creams and like products, and since there is *no* preservative specifically formulated for liquid soap...



Preservatives are chemical blends that have certain requirements (pH, temperature, presence or absence of other chemicals, etc.) to function properly. If your particular product contains ingredients or other properties that do not meet the requirements, the product is incompatible with the preservative. It doesn't matter whether the product is lotion or soap.

There are 3 preservatives I know of that are suitable for alkaline products, which includes liquid soap -- Liquid germall plus (to pH 10), Phenoxyethanol (to pH 10), and Suttocide A (to pH 12).

_"...would it be safe to say that as long as your LS is pH 9 to 11, no preservative is necessary?_

No, I don't think it's safe or even reasonable to say that. It makes no logical sense. There _are _preservatives suitable for alkaline products. Ergo, there _are _preservatives suitable for liquid soap should the maker decide to use a preservative.

Even if there were zero preservatives that were effective at the alkaline pH of liquid soap ... that would _still _not prove your point that preservatives for LS are unnecessary.

_"...As to the point about adding water to liquid soap, I just tested the LS in my foamer... It has a pH 9.5 and no sign of nasties or mold..."_

Last time you got food poisoning from eating contaminated food, did you see, smell, or taste the E coli, staph, clostridium, norovirus organisms in the food? It is a scientific fact that just because you can't SEE microorganisms growing doesn't mean they aren't present in numbers that may be a health hazard.

I do not understand why you persist in believing contaminated B&B products have to show visible signs of microbial growth before you deem them contaminated. It makes no sense to have that point of view.

Some of us are going to use preservatives in liquid soap and some of us won't. I'm pretty careful in my comments about the preservative vs. no preservative wrangle to leave room for a variety of opinions. There's no need to bolster your no-preservative point of view with pseudo-scientific logic. Whether you do or don't makes no matter to me -- I will be the last one to lecture you that you should add preservative.

***

For those who are reading this and wondering what my advice is -- The more dilute the liquid soap, the less stable the alkaline pH will be in the long run. The more food sources people add to liquid soap, the more likely that microbes are likely to grow. For both of those reasons, using a preservative may be a wise choice. If you add more than a trace of microbial food (aloe, milk, sugar, honey, etc.) to liquid soap, it's very likely _no _preservative will be effective, including the preservative effect of high pH. If you choose use a preservative, use one that's rated for the alkaline pH of this product and also keep the food content in your liquid soap very low.


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## SoaperForLife

Zany, why don't you send a sample of your LS to Sagescript and have a plate count done.  It isn't as good as a challenge test but it might a better barometer of the safety of your product as this point.


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## Zany_in_CO

Deleted.


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## Susie

Andrew said:


> The short of it is you can use various essential oils both for scent and product preservation.



I am a firm "no preservative" user.  I do not sell my liquid soap.  I only make it for friends and family.  So please don't think I am arguing for preservatives.  However, for the very reasons you quoted in your post, please don't think that the above statement is true.  If you got sued, no judge or jury would believe that essential oils were an effective preservative.  Somebody somewhere would sue you if they happened to get an infection while using your product, and if the plaintiff's attorney could prove that you KNEW there was a chance that your product could grow nasties and you STILL chose not to use a preservative, you would lose.  They would not even have to prove that your soap contains something bad.  Just the mere suggestion of not "protecting" the public would be enough in this current period of idiocy.  And while I think that not using the preservatives is the more ecologically sound and healthy choice, I am an odd creature today...educated...at least on the choices I make.


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## DeeAnna

Zany_in_CO said:


> ...I'm not sure where you got the idea that's my point of view, DeeAnna... it's not....



Then don't say things like this: "..._It has a pH 9.5 and *no sign of nasties or mold*......"_


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## cmzaha

Susie said:


> I am a firm "no preservative" user.  I do not sell my liquid soap.  I only make it for friends and family.  So please don't think I am arguing for preservatives.  However, for the very reasons you quoted in your post, please don't think that the above statement is true.  If you got sued, no judge or jury would believe that essential oils were an effective preservative.  Somebody somewhere would sue you if they happened to get an infection while using your product, and if the plaintiff's attorney could prove that you KNEW there was a chance that your product could grow nasties and you STILL chose not to use a preservative, you would lose.  They would not even have to prove that your soap contains something bad.  Just the mere suggestion of not "protecting" the public would be enough in this current period of idiocy.  And while I think that not using the preservatives is the more ecologically sound and healthy choice, I am an odd creature today...educated...at least on the choices I make.


All of the above and I will throw the fact that Insurance, 99% of the time Does Not cover Mold. So something else to consider. I have had a diluted LS mold which was not preserved, so I was convinced to preserve. Although I make it seldom it is now preserved after dilution. I do not dilute my entire batches of paste but dilute as I need to.


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## Lankan

DeeAnna said:


> There are 3 preservatives I know of that are suitable for alkaline products, which includes liquid soap -- Liquid germall plus (to pH 10), Phenoxyethanol (to pH 10), and Suttocide A (to pH 12).



Would you consider the NATICIDE by Sinerga over the above preservatives. their site states that it is from Natural Identical sources and effective between pH 4-9.
https://www.sinerga.it/en/raw-materials/products/microbial-inhibitor/naticide


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## Dahila

Naticide must be accompany with other one cause it does not work against mold . You should read about it on Making skincare,  I do preserve LS with Suttocide A ,  which you use in amount of 0.1% - 0.3%.  Not good with citrus cause it drift into red color.
Good for products with a pH of 3.5 to 12.
Suitable for use as a gelling agent with carbomers due to the high alkalinity of this preservative.
Germall suppose to be effective from 3-8 but I heard that is up to 11 ph so many people use it in the LS.
I like to use Phenonip like Carolyn because it is very effective. The internet is full of fear mongers.  I would rather read scientific research that blogs, except;  Swift monkey,  DeeAnna, and making skin care.   That blogs I do read, but they do go with the science.  You constantly link people to blogs,  I checked some, and they are not good, at least most of them.  
Zany with all due respect, your posts are unwise.  Please do not say that it does not need preservation.  I imagine infection on my skin (eczema) when I am constantly scratching my skin due itching. I conclusion I do preserve everything except the salves and balms;  products that do not contain any water.   Vit E or ROE are antioxidant ; slowing rancidity of oil that all they do.  You can add them or not to LS they do not preserve it at all.


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## Lankan

Dahila said:


> Naticide must be accompany with other one cause it does not work against mold . You should read about it on Making skincare,  I do preserve LS with Suttocide A ,  which you use in amount of 0.1% - 0.3%.  Not good with citrus cause it drift into red color.
> Good for products with a pH of 3.5 to 12.
> Suitable for use as a gelling agent with carbomers due to the high alkalinity of this preservative.
> Germall suppose to be effective from 3-8 but I heard that is up to 11 ph so many people use it in the LS.
> I like to use Phenonip like Carolyn because it is very effective. The internet is full of fear mongers.  I would rather read scientific research that blogs, except;  Swift monkey,  DeeAnna, and making skin care.   That blogs I do read, but they do go with the science.  You constantly link people to blogs,  I checked some, and they are not good, at least most of them.
> Zany with all due respect, your posts are unwise.  Please do not say that it does not need preservation.  I imagine infection on my skin (eczema) when I am constantly scratching my skin due itching. I conclusion I do preserve everything except the salves and balms;  products that do not contain any water.   Vit E or ROE are antioxidant ; slowing rancidity of oil that all they do.  You can add them or not to LS they do not preserve it at all.



the website chaims to be effective against molds also

_Naticide is a vegetal origin ingredient with a wide spectrum of activity, being effective against Gram+, Gram-, yeasts and moulds in a pH range between 4 - 9. _

Anyone heard of a preservative named DMDMH. When I asked my local chemical store for a preservative they suggested this. But I opted to explore more before using it.


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## Dahila

http://makingskincare.com/preservatives/
Lankan please read it,  this page is the one you can rely on,  The do testing on all products
"
Trade name(s) of preservative:  Naticide

INCI name: fragrance/parfum

Usage and phase:  1% Cool down

Works within pH range:  below pH 5

Natural or synthetic? Natural

*Protects against:*

*– gram positive bacteria? *Poor

*– gram negative bacteria? *Poor

*– mould? *No

*Further details: *Very expensive and has a vanilla/almond scent. Many users report irritation. "
There is a lot to desire from suppliers post and huge difference when tested ,


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## Zany_in_CO

Dahila said:


> Zany with all due respect, your posts are unwise.  Please do not say that it does not need preservation.


Dahila, I totally respect your decision to use a preservative in your liquid soap. I do not.  I hope we can agree to disagree. Based on my knowledge and 15 years experience, I stand by my statement that fully saponified liquid soap requires no preservative. There are many large commercial and home-based manufacturers of liquid soap that do not add preservatives to their products. Different strokes for different folks, yes?


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## Saltwater Scented

Anything that contains water and a source of nutrients will be colonized by microorganisms.  The deepest mines in the world have bacteria growing within the pores of solid rock.  Yellowstone's color patterns in the hot springs and geysers are bacteria growing in the equivalent of boiling battery acid.  

Mine drainage that is 12+ in pH and has levels of lead, mercury, and arsenic that are beyond a doubt deadly to any terrestrial organisms has bacteria growing in it.

Soap, regardless of level of saponification, is a colonizable substrate.  The health effects of that colonization is dependent on the organism but it is most definitely a viable substrate.


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## Susie

I think some of you folks arguing against the use of preservatives misunderstand why some of us would not sell without using a preservative.  I would only use a preservative to discourage a lawsuit.  Not because it is necessary to the safety of the soap, it isn't.  But an attorney should take one look at the label, see the preservative, and tell the client that the maker (me) did everything possible to prevent growth of nasties, and not take the case.  That's what should happen.  Not that it will, but then you hopefully have a judge that has good sense and throws it out for the same reason.


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## Dahila

Zany_in_CO said:


> Dahila, I totally respect your decision to use a preservative in your liquid soap. I do not.  I hope we can agree to disagree. Based on my knowledge and 15 years experience, I stand by my statement that fully saponified liquid soap requires no preservative. There are many large commercial and home-based manufacturers of liquid soap that do not add preservatives to their products. Different strokes for different folks, yes?


I am ok with it,  Zany but if you never tested your soaps, you have not idea what is in it,   I remember Susie had mold grown on paste .    Hard to believe cause ph is so high,    have a good weekend


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## cmzaha

The other issue is most if not all insurance will not cover mold, and as I have mentioned I have had mold grow in LS and in Cream Soap. I do make my products in all sanitized containers, utensils covered countertops, etc. So everything is as clean as it can be in a non-sterile room. So I will not even consider selling with no preservative and I also will not use products without preservative due to my eczema problems.


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## Saltwater Scented

cmzaha said:


> The other issue is most if not all insurance will not cover mold, and as I have mentioned I have had mold grow in LS and in Cream Soap. I do make my products in all sanitized containers, utensils covered countertops, etc. So everything is as clean as it can be in a non-sterile room. So I will not even consider selling with no preservative and I also will not use products without preservative due to my eczema problems.



I work in property claims in insurance.  I can tell you that for personal property, i.e. anything you take with you when you sell your home, we have zero coverage for mold.  Most homeowners and rental property policies out there have zero coverage for personal property affected by mold.  Some will cover it if the personal property was first damaged by water and then had mold colonizing it. Others will see mold and scratch that off the list for coverage immediately.  There are some companies that will allow you to add on an endorsement (rider) to you policy for mold but the cost is substantial.  Most states have very little coverage for mold, if any at all.  For the most part, you have enough to cover the pre-remediation testing, post remediation testing/clearance, and maybe a $1000.00 left over for the actual mold to be remediated.

The premise for no mold coverage, from an underwriting perspective, is that mold is easily preventable if you maintain your residence.  Let a little water leak go for a few weeks because it seems like it is only dripping here and there is a huge mistake. Now you have $43,000.00 mold remediation estimate?  

All we have for you is $2500.00, subject to your $2000.00 deductible because that's the sole source of damage.  Would you like that $500.00 as a direct deposit or a printed check for record keeping purposes?  

That's the news I had to give someone yesterday afternoon.  It's the worst, absolute worst, part of my job.


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## cmzaha

I have my insurance through the Guild and it Does Not cover mold in cosmetic products.


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## Dahila

cmzaha said:


> I have my insurance through the Guild and it Does Not cover mold in cosmetic products.


No insurance will cover mold in cosmetics what is also important you need to do testing in case of claim as soon as testing fells ,  the maker is responsible of exposing people to danger,  I can not imagine why people do buy products without preservation.  We have such easy access to information.  I on my side do a lot of educating my customers.  Emphasis on safety first,  In like 5 year I am on market  I had one person who did not buy my lotion due preservation. 
Carolyn you can wake me up in middle of night and I can make my speech about it.  
I can not imagine us with eczema and atopic dermatitis to use something unpreserved


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## Susie

Dahila said:


> No insurance will cover mold in cosmetics what is also important you need to do testing in case of claim as soon as testing fells ,  the maker is responsible of exposing people to danger,  I can not imagine why people do buy products without preservation.  We have such easy access to information.  I on my side do a lot of educating my customers.  Emphasis on safety first,  In like 5 year I am on market  I had one person who did not buy my lotion due preservation.
> Carolyn you can wake me up in middle of night and I can make my speech about it.
> I can not imagine us with eczema and atopic dermatitis to use something unpreserved



I have/had those, and part of my issue was that the preservatives were part of the cause.  Hence my continued non use of preservatives in my liquid soap.  I only use it for friends and family, and everyone now knows how to dilute the paste.  I send it to them in 8 oz packages of paste, which forces them to make fresh long before any danger of yuckies growing.

By the way, the nasties were not on my paste, they were in a bottle of diluted soap that was over 2 years (almost 3) old.


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## Zany_in_CO

Saltwater Scented said:


> The premise for no mold coverage, from an underwriting perspective, is that mold is easily preventable if you maintain your residence.


Good input. Thanks, Saltwater.






I'm thinking _"mold is easily preventable"_ must be true for homemade B & B products as well. This reminds me of the time I made a small batch of lotion -- three 16 oz pump containers -- one for me, one for my friend Nancy the Nurse, and one for Nancy's friend. 

Six months later, both Nancy and I were down to our last little bit of lotion, when her friend returned hers - a still-full container, with a half-dollar size ring of black hairy mold around the stem.   It looked like it hadn't been used at all. The clear shoulder area of the container had condensation. That gave me the clue to solve the mystery of how it happened.

I quickly surmised that the bottle had most likely been kept (& forgotten?) in direct sunlight, either in her car or on a kitchen or bathroom shelf (?) near a window -- causing the lotion to heat up beyond the preservative's temperature limits... thus causing condensation to form and flow down the stem and create the mold.

I happily replaced the lotion with a fresh one. Customer was happy too. No worries.


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## cmzaha

Susie, I do respect your decision to not using preservative, and thank goodness we still have the right to make decisions, and using unpreserved is certainly your choice to make. But I would not risk giving it away to even family or friends. It would still make you liable. Ask me what wonderful family can do. 

Bacteria loves to get into any lesion, including little bug bites and wreak havoc. I have seen first hand what Sespis can do.


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## Saltwater Scented

Zany_in_CO said:


> Good input. Thanks, Saltwater.
> View attachment 41258
> 
> 
> I'm thinking _"mold is easily preventable"_ must be true for homemade B & B products as well.



It is; use a preservative. I'm not sure how to put this plainly, but please consider if your product has grown mold already you're putting people's lives at risk.  What if someone with a compromised immune system used your product at the home of the friend who had the mold growth?  If a type 1 diabetic used it without seeing any evidence of a colonization it could lead to quite horrible results.  

As someone mentioned earlier, you don't see the growth on food that gives you food poisoning.  There could be bacterial colonization within the product that no one ever sees. Or perhaps a child uses an old liquid soap from under a sink that the parents have forgotten and doesn't recognize the contamination? 

This thread would be hard for your criminal and civil defense attorney to overcome against a charge of willful and gross negligence.


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## Lankan

Dahila said:


> http://makingskincare.com/preservatives/
> Lankan please read it,  this page is the one you can rely on,  The do testing on all products
> "
> Trade name(s) of preservative:  Naticide
> 
> INCI name: fragrance/parfum
> 
> Usage and phase:  1% Cool down
> 
> Works within pH range:  below pH 5
> 
> Natural or synthetic? Natural
> 
> *Protects against:*
> 
> *– gram positive bacteria? *Poor
> 
> *– gram negative bacteria? *Poor
> 
> *– mould? *No
> 
> *Further details: *Very expensive and has a vanilla/almond scent. Many users report irritation. "
> There is a lot to desire from suppliers post and huge difference when tested ,


 
Thanks for the link, very informative. By the way according to wiki, DMDMH is the preservative sold as Glydant.


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## Dahila

Lankan said:


> Thanks for the link, very informative. By the way according to wiki, DMDMH is the preservative sold as Glydant.


Had they done any testing?  Read a bit about cosmetic formulators on "Making skincare"  I also recommend Mark Fuller.


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## Dahila

Zany_in_CO said:


> Good input. Thanks, Saltwater.
> View attachment 41258
> 
> 
> I'm thinking _"mold is easily preventable"_ must be true for homemade B & B products as well. This reminds me of the time I made a small batch of lotion -- three 16 oz pump containers -- one for me, one for my friend Nancy the Nurse, and one for Nancy's friend.
> 
> Six months later, both Nancy and I were down to our last little bit of lotion, when her friend returned hers - a still-full container, with a half-dollar size ring of black hairy mold around the stem.   It looked like it hadn't been used at all. The clear shoulder area of the container had condensation. That gave me the clue to solve the mystery of how it happened.
> 
> I quickly surmised that the bottle had most likely been kept (& forgotten?) in direct sunlight, either in her car or on a kitchen or bathroom shelf (?) near a window -- causing the lotion to heat up beyond the preservative's temperature limits... thus causing condensation to form and flow down the stem and create the mold.
> 
> I happily replaced the lotion with a fresh one. Customer was happy too. No worries.


One of my control batches are exposed to extreme conditions,  hot weather and direct son ,  cold weather and others,   my 5 years old control lotions are still good ,  Preservation is a key


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## Zany_in_CO

Saltwater Scented said:


> It is; use a preservative. I'm not sure how to put this plainly, but please consider if your product has grown mold already you're putting people's lives at risk.


You're preaching to the choir there, Sweet Pea.  The product was lotion (not LS) which requires a preservative. That preservative becomes compromised when left in sunlight or near some other heat source. And *for 6 months?!!!* GAH! My wholesale customers are aware of this and keep their stash in a cooler  under the sales table with one bottle available for testing.


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## Zany_in_CO

Deleted. Double post.


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## Lankan

Dahila said:


> Had they done any testing?  Read a bit about cosmetic formulators on "Making skincare"  I also recommend Mark Fuller.



I checked their website, Glydant is claimed to be used in personal care products for decades. it also states I has ultra low levels of for  formaldehyde content (<0.09%) thereby *avoiding the  H350 phrase in Europe*. 

Clause H350 stands for  for "May Cause Cancer". Although it is claimed to be ultra low, the formaldehyde is considered as "known to be a human carcinogen" by the US National Toxicology Program.

I tend to conclude this may not be a preservative I would want to use, neither any of us in the community


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## DeeAnna

Problem is that formaldehyde is naturally present in some foods -- apples and other fruits, meat, fish, and some vegetables for example -- in higher concentrations than in products preserved with formaldehyde-producing preservatives.

It's absolutely your choice to not use a formaldehyde-producing preservative, and I'm not trying to tell you otherwise. It's important, however, to understand this issue in a realistic context.

Also, what the manufacturer's say about the efficacy of their preservatives can be wildly different than the performance of these preservatives in the real world. Manufacturers tend to overstate the efficacy, especially of their so-called natural preservatives. It's important to verify these claims with independent sources of real life testing before relying on manufacturer's claims.


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## Lankan

@DeeAnna thanks for your input. I'm very skeptical about including a chemical preservative in to my liquid soap. However considering the issues it can bring up if no preservatives used, I thought of looking for a preservative. here it is very difficult to obtain the popular brands used by soapers in US. hence I've asked the chemical shop where I usually buy caustic soda, they suggested DMDMH. that's how I got to know about it. However, with what I found out afterwards, I still opted not to use it, which means I'm back looking for another one.


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## Zany_in_CO

Lankan said:


> @DeeAnna thanks for your input. I'm very skeptical about including a chemical preservative in to my liquid soap.


You may want to read what Faith of Alaiyna B Blogspot has to say about preservatives in liquid soap. It may help you with your decision. (Scroll down a bit.)
http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2014/12/liquid-soap-faqs.html#more


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## Lankan

Zany_in_CO said:


> You may want to read what Faith of Alaiyna B Blogspot has to say about preservatives in liquid soap. It may help you with your decision. (Scroll down a bit.)
> http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2014/12/liquid-soap-faqs.html#more



Thanks for the link, I've been making Cold Processed Liquid Soap for about an year for personal use and given away to my immediate families. I used distilled water to dilute (1:3), fragrance to scent, food coloring & table salt as thickening agent. Although my product turned out to be lovely at the beginning, the fragrance eventually overpowered by a pungent smell , it happens more faster in the bottle kept in the bathroom, than the bottle kept near the kitchen sink. More recently, I found a bottle I gave away about six month ago unused at my parent's place. it also had that bad odor, however not as worse as it is in the bottle used in the bathroom. It can be either due to the absence of Preservative or due to the absence of antioxidant. 

After reading thru many articles, and SMF forum, I've opted to include BHT (Butylated hydroxytoluene) as the antioxidant also EDTA as chelating agent in my latest batch of about 2kg. I've diluted a small amount of it and started using it. Now I feel the bad smell my product is developing is not due to oxidation and due to some other issues (lack of preservatives may be?) that's why I started looking for a preservative, I'm someone who didn't wanted any chemical substances in my soap other than that are essential or already used in day to day life (Caustic, food coloring, fragrance in the absence of essential oils etc). however, eventually I've come to realize that at some points responsible use of chemicals can help to improve the safety and usability of the product. that's how I've opted for EDTA (after experiment with Citrates), BHT etc.


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## Dahila

Lankan stop using food colorant cause it will stain your bathtub or skin.  It is not allowed in US or Canada and I do believe Europe too.  My liquid soap smells nice ,  If you  using hot glycerin to mix KOH it could be the source of smell cause glycerin does easily burn, then the stink


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## Lankan

Dahila said:


> Lankan stop using food colorant cause it will stain your bathtub or skin.  It is not allowed in US or Canada and I do believe Europe too.  My liquid soap smells nice ,  If you  using hot glycerin to mix KOH it could be the source of smell cause glycerin does easily burn, then the stink



Thanks for the advise, I usually use a small dose of food colorant (usually pink). I have not seen any stain marks anywhere due to that. Do you know any particular reason for the ban, I heard it may discolor due to high pH environment. the bottle of 6 month old soap I found at my parents place also holding on to the color, without indicating much discoloration. My first batch back in 2018, was made with water soluble colorant added to the soap batter, it had discoloration after few months time. Now I add color only at the dilution stage. 

All my soaps are Cold processed. I don't preheat, just start with KOH in water solution only. Glycerin is added during stick blending when the temperature is manageable. I leave the completed batch to sit for couple of hours finish saponificaiton and cool down. The soap paste doesn't smell bad, so does the soap immediately after dilution. that's why I concluded that the reason may be some microorganisms.


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## Dahila

Lankan so you make it like I do .  I mix koh with water,  then add glycerin to it when a bit cooler.  Actually I have no idea why it is banned in cosmetics in US and Canada,  Europe have even more restriction that we have .  I have customers who complained that they got the bb and they stained the tub,  Maybe with soap is different situation but it is not allowed here.  Maybe DeeAnna can explain it ?


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## Lankan

Good news..!! I wrote to industrial tech. institute explaining the challenges I face and today I got a response to meet with the my samples.

I'm hoping to visit them asap, amid my work schedules and need to get my questions clearly prepared to discuss with them. preservatives would be one of those items definitely.


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## earlene

Dahila said:


> Lankan so you make it like I do .  I mix koh with water,  then add glycerin to it when a bit cooler.  Actually I have no idea why it is banned in cosmetics in US and Canada,  Europe have even more restriction that we have .  I have customers who complained that they got the bb and they stained the tub,  Maybe with soap is different situation but it is not allowed here.  Maybe DeeAnna can explain it ?



In the US for Cosmetics, colorants must be on the certified and approved colorants list.  In Canada all soap are classified as cosmetics, but in the US that is not the case.  True soap is exempt, so unapproved colorants can be used in non-cosmetic soaps in the US, BUT they still have to be safe for use if the soap is being sold.  The regulations don't apply if one is making soap only for personal use (self or family).

The FDA tests and certifies all colorants before adding them to the approved list.  So if it gets tested and doesn't pass, it cannot be used.  I really don't know if the FDA tested food coloring or not, so I don't really know if it was truly banned.  You could be correct, I just don't really know.


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## Dahila

thanks Earlene.  I know all regulation in Canada but so well rules in US


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## Lankan

Lankan said:


> Good news..!! I wrote to industrial tech. institute explaining the challenges I face and today I got a response to meet with the my samples.
> 
> I'm hoping to visit them asap, amid my work schedules and need to get my questions clearly prepared to discuss with them. preservatives would be one of those items definitely.



I've met with them yesterday and agreed to give them my product (liquid soap) so that they can run some test with several options, my key concerns were preservatives & thickeners with consistency over a range of  temperatures.


----------

