# Question about SLS



## Balloons (Apr 29, 2012)

Being new to soap making B&B products...I placed a big order for some supplies.....one item was liquid SLS.....1 gallon of it.  Now I am reading how bad it is :shock:  Is there anything that I can use it for? I don't want to waste it or money. When I bought it my thinking was that I could use it in bubble bath, shampoo, soap and so on.  Now I am reading how dangerous it is.  I just really don't want to pitch it.  Please tell me there is something that I can use it for.  Thanks for your help!!!


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## lsg (Apr 30, 2012)

I wouldn't panic, you can still use sls.  Here are a couple of articles explaining the hype on sls.

http://www.mydaily.com/2011/01/06/the-t ... l-sulfate/


http://www.treasuredlocks.com/the-truth ... lfate.html


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## ToniD (Apr 30, 2012)

You can also use it in laundry detergent or  dishwashing liquid if you don't want to use it for bath items


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## Balloons (Apr 30, 2012)

lsg, Thank you so much for the great articles to read. 

ToniD, Thank you for for your reply also!! 

Although I plan on only using a small amount of SLS in my B&B items, just love lots of suds/bubbles, my hubby is no so convinced yet. 

Now I just gotta find some recipes for this stuff. 

Thanks again!!


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## lsg (May 1, 2012)

Well, tell your hubby that he has probably been using products with sls as an ingredient for years. 
http://web.archive.org/web/200308030658 ... e_myth.asp

 Swiftcraftymonkey's Point of Interest Blog has a lot of good information:

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2 ... rview.html


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## birdcharm (May 2, 2012)

Did you happen to read some of the comments on the first link offered here?  I'm still going to read more, as I too am concerned with this chemical, as it does strip natural oils.  Anyway, I'm still reading ... 

Kathy

P.S.  I see that the second link shown is an article by a company using and selling this product/ingredient, not exactly an objective article ... still reading.


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## lsg (May 2, 2012)

While the author of the second site might be biased, they do give a credible reference for their information:
"If you're interested in learning more: 
Go to the American Cancer Society's website and do a search on Sodium Lauryl Sulfate."

  The last link is an American Cancer Society info site.

http://web.archive.org/web/200308030658 ... e_myth.asp

Here is a direct quote from that site:
"According to David Emery and his Urban Legends website, "Interestingly, all these Websites are maintained by 'independent distributors' for various multi-level marketing companies hawking natural personal care products. As a matter of fact, the majority of URLs returned in a standard Web search on the keywords 'sodium laureth sulfate' all point to versions of the same propaganda."

It is entirely up to you whether you believe the information from these sources, I am just giving references with information about the other side of the story.  There are many other surfactants that one can use, but if someone has already purchased sls, it seems a shame not to use it because of some information that may not be true.


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## birdcharm (May 2, 2012)

Hi, 

I am mostly concerned with this ingredient stripping the skin of natural oils, I do believe it is considered rather "detergent-like" ... IMO, if one is investing time in formulating products, then it's best to start off with ingredients that you wish to continue to use.  Of course, you wouldn't want to throw this out ... btw, I believe the MSDS will tell you NOT to pour it directly into waterways as it kills aquatic life ... but, it could be used in some personal products and then not used if one should decide to not consider it for an ingredient they want to market.  

Now, tell me if this is true ... I forget where I found this: 

Sodium lauryl sulphate is sodium laureth sulphate chemically combined with ethylene oxide to form larger molecules.

Why on earth should anyone be concerned about the size of the molecules? Well, one reason is because small molecules, such as those of sodium laureth sulphate can pass through skin into the body where they enter the blood stream and build up in the internal organs - especially the brain and kidneys. Bearing in mind what sodium laureth sulphate does to the comparatively tough skin, I hate to think what it can do to the gentle internal organs. Research in America at the Georgia University medical centre indicates that sodium laureth sulphate and sodium lauryl sulphate can both react with other chemicals found in cosmetics to form nitrosamines and 1,4 dioxine, which are both known carcinogens. For this reason the American Food and Drug Agency classifies both sodium laureth sulphate and sodium lauryl sulphate as drugs when used in cosmetics.

~~~ 

Interesting topic ... so many "pros and cons," it seems! 

Kathy


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## lsg (May 3, 2012)

My advice is to post your question with SNOPES or maybe contact the agency you mentioned.  They will probably be better able to advise you than I.


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## Genny (May 3, 2012)

birdcharm said:
			
		

> Now, tell me if this is true ... I forget where I found this:
> 
> Sodium lauryl sulphate is sodium laureth sulphate chemically combined with ethylene oxide to form larger molecules.
> 
> ...



That's false. 

Just wanted to add another very good article about SLS & SLES and where the cancer myth started
http://personalcaretruth.com/2010/09/do ... se-cancer/


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## ToniD (May 3, 2012)

birdcharm said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> . btw, I believe the MSDS will tell you NOT to pour it directly into waterways as it kills aquatic life ...
> 
> ...



Just a note....this is true of any detergent or soap.


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## birdcharm (May 4, 2012)

Okay ... did some more reading ... thanks Genny ... it appears that it is Sodium LAURETH Sulfate that is in question with regard to to the ethoxylation.  

The description I read said, 
[To avoid 1,4 dioxane, the Organic Consumers Association (OCA) recommends avoiding products with indications of ethoxylation. 
To do this, look for the following suffixes in the ingredient list: "myreth," "oleth," "laureth," "ceteareth," any other "eth," "PEG," "polyethylene," "polyethylene glycol," "polyoxyethylene," or "oxynol." 

For example—sodium laureth sulfate.]

(However, I do see that there is a real issue with 
SLS being used in toothpaste.)

Thanks again, 
Kathy


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## Genny (May 4, 2012)

birdcharm said:
			
		

> The description I read said,
> [To avoid 1,4 dioxane, the Organic Consumers Association (OCA) recommends avoiding products with indications of ethoxylation.
> To do this, look for the following suffixes in the ingredient list: "myreth," "oleth," "laureth," "ceteareth," any other "eth," "PEG," "polyethylene," "polyethylene glycol," "polyoxyethylene," or "oxynol."
> 
> ...



I was just wondering if you could please give a link to where you read this?


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## birdcharm (May 4, 2012)

Hi, 

I decided to go directly to the source to see what it's all about. 
This is the actual quote from the Organic Consumers Association ...
"Dioxane- Found in compounds known as PEG, Polysorbates, 
Laureth, ethoxylated alcohols. Common in a wide range of 
personal care products. The compounds are usually contaminated 
with high concentrations of highly volatile 1,4-dioxane, easily 
absorbed through the skin."

http://www.organicconsumers.org/article ... e_9039.cfm

Of course, this is an "association" and companies do help to 
sponsor them, so I wanted to read a little more ... I really don't 
feel as though this information has been made up without any 
reason.  They describe themselves as "an online and grassroots non-profit
public interest organization campaigning for health, justice, and 
sustainability .... deals with crucial issues of food safety, industrial
agriculture, genetic engineering, children's health, corporate accountability, 
Fair Trade, environmental sustainability and other key topics."

So, now, I start reading a little more about SLS ... personally I am
not using over-the-counter shampoos anymore!  I am truly 
finding this topic very interesting. 

I thought I would see what is written about it here: 
http://www.safecosmetics.org/article.php?id=288, 
and find this interesting in that SLS is put through a 
process to make it milder and ends up as Sodium Laureth ... 
again, finding this similar information about ethoxylation ...

"Most commonly, 1,4-dioxane is found in products that create suds, like shampoo, liquid soap and bubble bath."

"Besides sodium laureth sulfate, other common ingredients that may be contaminated by 1,4-dioxane include PEG compounds and chemicals that include the clauses xynol, ceteareth and oleth." 

"1,4-dioxane is generated through a process called ethoxylation, in which ethylene oxide, a known breast carcinogen, is added to other chemicals to make them less harsh. This process creates 1,4-dioxane. For example, sodium laurel sulfate, a chemical that is harsh on the skin, is often converted to the less-harsh chemical sodium laureth sulfate (the “eth” denotes ethoxylation), which can contaminate this ingredient with 1,4-dioxane."

"It is highly unlikely that any one product containing 1,4-dioxane will cause harm on its own. However, repeated exposures from many different products add up. The same baby could be exposed to 1,4-dioxane from baby shampoo, bath bubbles and body wash in a single bath, as well as from other contaminated personal care products today, tomorrow and the next day. Repeated exposures to a single carcinogen, synergistic effects from exposures to multiple carcinogenic and mutagenic ingredients, and concerns about exposures at key points in development (such as pregnancy, infancy and puberty) are cause for concern even though little risk is evident from a single small exposure."

~~~~ 

I tend to agree ... it's not about using these ingredients for 
a short amount of time ... it's about using them for an entire 
lifetime ... do they accumulate in our bodies?  I guess, for 
me, that is the question. 

Kathy


P.S. - (Sort of off topic) -   In regard to Polysorbates ... the note above 
seems to generalize these ... I believe Poly 20 may be much milder and safer than the higher numbers.


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## Genny (May 4, 2012)

Here's some info about Ethylene Oxide
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/ethyleneoxide/index.html

Also, here's some info on the study done of Ethylene Oxide and cancer.
"The International Agency for Research on Cancer classifies ethylene oxide into group 1, meaning it is a proven carcinogen.[99][100] A 2003 study of 7,576 women exposed while at work in commercial sterilization facilities in the U.S. suggests ethylene oxide is associated with breast cancer incidence.[101] A 2004 follow up study analyzing 18,235 men and women workers exposed to ethylene oxide from 1987 to 1998 concluded "There was little evidence of any excess cancer mortality for the cohort as a whole, with the exception of bone cancer based on small numbers. Positive exposure-response trends for lymphoid tumors were found for males only. Reasons for the sex specificity of this effect are not known. There was also some evidence of a positive exposure-response for breast cancer mortality."

But you have to take into consideration that these people were working with the full strength material all day every day.  Once it's in SLES, Polysorbate, etc.  it's been incredibly dilluted, then it gets put into products in a minute amount.


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## birdcharm (May 5, 2012)

Thanks for posting that ... I am believing now that
sodium laureth is most likely the ingredient 
that needs to be more carefully considered over 
the sodium laurel ... although, it seems that 
_what it is going to be used in_ is important. 
For instance, I wouldn't add SLS to mouthwash or 
toothpaste, as I see many references to it causing 
some problems in those types of products.  
Although, some people may be too sensitive 
to this ingredient, or it could have drying effects
for some, but overall, it's probably safe to use;
but, there are some of us who wonder about 
using certain products all of their lives in small
amounts and I think we're becoming more cautious 
about them ... such as shampoos, shaving 
creams, and other body products that each 
have a little of "this ingredient that might be
dangerous" in each one of them.  Many of 
these products are used everyday and they 
are soaking into our skin, into our bodies ... 
it's going somewhere.  It's just that most 
likely no one can tell when they have used 
too much of any combination of chemicals
until it's too late.  It's kind of like sugar ... it 
doesn't taste bad, a little surely can't hurt, 
but, over a lifetime, it does.  

I just ordered some "CocoFoam" (which I 
believe is potassium cocoate) ... supposedly 
this has a high "green rating."  Although I 
do not have the link, I printed out a page 
awhile back about "alkyl polyglucosides" 
and I'm still reading more about them. 
From what I read, they are considered 
"low ethoxylated monoglycerides" and 
they can help to enhance other surfactants. 
So, in other words, perhaps one could use 
a combination and lessen the demand for 
only one that might be considered 
questionable (such as SLS.)  I believe 
there is a line of products called 
"Plantapon" and "Plantasol" ... I need 
to do more reading to learn what would 
be a good way to start to experiment 
with these in order to make a nice foam, 
as I am hoping to come up with one 
without the use of SLS at all, simply 
due to the confusion about it. 

Natural foaming agents are obviously 
something I too am trying to learn 
more about!

Kathy


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## Robert (Jun 30, 2013)

birdcharm said:


> Now, tell me if this is true ... I forget where I found this:
> 
> Sodium lauryl sulphate is sodium laureth sulphate chemically combined with ethylene oxide to form larger molecules.


The opposite is true: sodium laureth sulfate (sodium lauryl ether sulfate) is of larger molecules where ethylene oxide has been interpolated.

If you start with a fatty alcohol (such as lauryl alcohol) you can sulfate it directly and get, for example, sodium lauryl sulfate.  If instead you react it first with ethylene oxide, you make a fatty ethoxylate, and then if you sulfate that, you get a fatty ether sulfate such as sodium laureth sulfate.



> Why on earth should anyone be concerned about the size of the molecules? Well, one reason is because small molecules, such as those of sodium laureth sulphate can pass through skin into the body where they enter the blood stream and build up in the internal organs - especially the brain and kidneys. Bearing in mind what sodium laureth sulphate does to the comparatively tough skin, I hate to think what it can do to the gentle internal organs. Research in America at the Georgia University medical centre indicates that sodium laureth sulphate and sodium lauryl sulphate can both react with other chemicals found in cosmetics to form nitrosamines and 1,4 dioxine, which are both known carcinogens. For this reason the American Food and Drug Agency classifies both sodium laureth sulphate and sodium lauryl sulphate as drugs when used in cosmetics.


There are so many lies and irrelevancies in that, it's hard to know where to start straightening it out!  Molecule size is but one of many factors in determining absorption, but as I explained above, sodium laureth sulfate has larger molecules than sodium lauryl sulfate -- and the comparable soaps (fatty carboxylates) are slightly smaller still.  There is no evidence these substances build up in brain or kidney tissue.

Neither SLS nor SLES can form nitrosamines.

1,4 dioxane is a byproduct of ethoxylation (reaction with ethylene oxide as described above).

FDA does not classify those ingredients as drugs when used in cosmetics, and indeed if they did produce carcinogens, that would not be a reason to classify them as drugs!


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## Robert (Jun 30, 2013)

birdcharm said:


> Thanks for posting that ... I am believing now that
> sodium laureth is most likely the ingredient
> that needs to be more carefully considered over
> the sodium laurel ... although, it seems that
> _what it is going to be used in_ is important.


Then consider that ethoxylated products like SLES are commonly used in household detergents such as those for washing dishes by hand.  I'd be more concerned about absorbing dioxane that way (considering that you eat & drink off those things) than by toiletries if I were concerned with it at all.


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