# pH challenge by Dr. Kevin Dunn



## coffeetime

This was posted on Facebook this morning. It applies to both bar soap and liquid. 

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1080560095293056&id=123574497658292

Hopefully that link works. You might need to be on Facebook to see it.


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## Dorymae

My prediction :  Not only will he not " eat crow" but he will prove that most people do not know how to properly use a PH meter. 

Sadly the people he proves wrong will still be adamant that their soap is PH neutral. 

I'll be interested to see the result.


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## Susie

Those were exactly my thoughts.  But I am now following that on FB, so we'll see.  It will be nice, however, to have a definitive link to give people to read when they come _insisting_ that they can make "neutral" soap, or that their pH strips or meters SAID it was pH 7.


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## IrishLass

Sweet! :-D


IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

Susan (swiftcraftymonkey) has taken as much or more fire on this topic as Dunn has. I gather there are a number of soapers who passionately support the soaper making the claim of having made a "pH 7 soap", but no one in that camp can provide the method by which this particular soap can be made.

For those wanting to know what the debate is all about, start here:
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2011/12/doves-beauty-barjust-few-thoughts.html (look for the long discussion in the comments between Susan and "Lady Marah")

More:
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2015/02/chemistry-thursday-all-about-acids.html
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2015/02/we-have-interesting-challenge-for-all.html

Even SMF has had some sideline involvement in this controversy:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=48250 (look for comments by "Lady of 4")
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=43328

Lady Marah's blog: 
http://whitetiger0603.blogspot.ca/2014/09/the-sapnoifier-magazine-rebuttal.html

I am curious to see if Lady Marah aka Lady of 4 will accept Dunn's gauntlet.


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## Saponista

I will be watching this with great interest.


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## Dorymae

DeeAnna said:


> Susan (swiftcraftymonkey) has taken as much or more fire on this topic as Dunn has. I gather there are a number of soapers who passionately support the soaper making the claim of having made a "pH 7 soap", but no one in that camp can provide the method by which this particular soap can be made.
> 
> For those wanting to know what the debate is all about, start here:
> http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2011/12/doves-beauty-barjust-few-thoughts.html (look for the long discussion in the comments between Susan and "Lady Marah")
> 
> More:
> http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2015/02/chemistry-thursday-all-about-acids.html
> http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2015/02/we-have-interesting-challenge-for-all.html
> 
> Even SMF has had some sideline involvement in this controversy:
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=48250 (look for comments by "Lady of 4")
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=43328
> 
> Lady Marah's blog:
> http://whitetiger0603.blogspot.ca/2014/09/the-sapnoifier-magazine-rebuttal.html
> 
> I am curious to see if Lady Marah aka Lady of 4 will accept Dunn's gauntlet.



At the bottom of her blog, she has accepted the challenge. Oh boy, this should be good!


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## AMyers

So why is it so important to have pH 7 soap?  In general, the higher pH soaps we make (properly) don't burn us, and often can be good for our skin, so what's the reasoning for this?  Just to say they can?


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## lpstephy85

AMyers said:


> So why is it so important to have pH 7 soap?  In general, the higher pH soaps we make (properly) don't burn us, and often can be good for our skin, so what's the reasoning for this?  Just to say they can?




My theory on the reasoning for this is marketing, plain and simple. I have had many a customer because Dove (being a syndent) is able to have a pH of 7 people think that all soaps, especially handmade because they are "all natural" should have that as well and I have to educate them on the difference between soaps. People believe everything they read or hear and think that soap has to be neutral for it to be safe for their skin.


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## DeeAnna

I have written about 3 responses and decided I should just say this: 
Yes, I think the original spark for this was the idea that low pH cleansers = safe for skin.
I also think there may be some gratification or amusement created by the ongoing drama.


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## Susie

^Exactly what Ipstephy85 said.  It has no bearing on the reality of safety or effectiveness.  People get hung up on that number, and it is extremely difficult to convince them otherwise.  This forum has lots of those discussions.  That and the, "You can make soap with no lye, so-and-so does" mindset have to be the worst two things to convince people of.


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## Dorymae

DeeAnna said:


> I also think there may be some gratification or amusement created by the ongoing drama.



I think this is the high and low of it.


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## DeeAnna

Interesting update from Susan's (swiftcraftymonkey) latest newsletter:

"...Don't forget about Kevin Dunn's soapmaking challenge! He's had no submissions so far, which kinda weirds me out as there were some very vocal soapmakers who should have jumped at the chance to prove me and the other doubters out there wrong. I really am eager to see what the results might be!..."

Source: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2015/04/weekend-wonderings-reminder-about.html


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Well, I am shocked to my core that no soapers have taken up the gauntlet thus far.


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## abc

I'm surprised. There were several soapers, who claimed to have neutral soap, promise to send them in on Dunn's Facebook post.


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## Seawolfe

I will not be sending in my perfectly newtral soap because they will discern my seekrit recipe from my precious soapz and steal ALL my moneyz!!


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## DeeAnna

Seawolfe ... I'm sooo disappointed in you! 

Seriously, I have to say Dunn's challenge is unfortunately not worded in neutral language -- he is borderline derisive in his Facebook post rather than presenting his challenge in a civil manner. I think that's a bit of a mark against him, especially since he is a scholar by profession. 

That said, if I was a truly passionate advocate about my "perfectly newtral seekrit recipe soap", I would accept his challenge and find out if my product really is what I think it is. And if it's not, why not and what would I need to do to solve the problem. At the very least, how else could someone get several hundred dollars worth of lab analysis for free?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Aye, while it is clear that he is out to prove wrong rather than be proven wrong, if someone actually believes that they make a real soap with a pH of 7 then they should step up.  If they have any doubts, then they are wrong to make their claims.

I just wish that there would be a way of knowing which of these proponents of pH 7 soaps had actually seen the challenge but turned tail at the chance..................


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## reinbeau

He is calling out someone specifically.  I've been following this for awhile.  It's an ego fest, really, between three people.  We'll see how it ends up.


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## DeeAnna

The players in this drama that I know about are mentioned in Post 5 in this thread. I'm not friends nor acquaintances with any of them ... I'm just familiar with them due to their involvement in things soapy. On one hand, I find the situation fascinating, but on the other hand, I find it rather painful and sad. I'm like a little kid watching a scary movie by peeking through my fingers at the TV.


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## Dorymae

You said that very well. I don't really want to see any soap maker embarrassed, but on the other hand some have been VERY vocal about the PH of their soaps. I really wish they would do some homework and realize that what they are saying is simply not possible, unless of course the rules of chemistry are wrong, and if they are they'll be famous for their discovery. 

Kevin can't lose, he knows he can't lose, and I understand why he is being rather hard nosed about this. Although as I said I hate to see any soap makers nose rubbed in it.


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## newbie

I don't. They should be willing to back up their claims. You shouldn't spout off what you say are facts about your product unless you're willing to stand behind them. Cough up those soaps, I say!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I agree with Newbie - these people making the claims are either knowingly making false claims or unknowingly.  If the former, they should indeed have their lies outed, debunked and cleared up.  If the latter, then having the chance to learn the actual information is never a bad thing.

It sounds like these soapers aren't willing to look at the possibility that they are wrong, which makes me think they are in the first group - knowing they are wrong but having invested so much in being right on this topic that to consider any thing else is just unthinkable.


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## reinbeau

Actually the person making these claims feels she has done her homework and swears up and down she's made the pH of 7 soap happen.  She has done lots of homework - whether it was effective homework and homework that will prove her as correct remains to be seen.  It is painful, though, because she isn't one to take things on.....easily.


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## LBussy

I have "done my homework" and convinced myself of things before only to later have discovered one fatal flaw which changes everything.  I've never not learned from those situations though.

While it's true the "soap challenge" was not worded in a manner that was neutral, I think he can get a pass just this once.  He's provided ample facts to back up his hypothesis and the fact that people (let's face it, these are not people who have anything near his background/experience) say "yeah but" is a bit of a slap in the face.  I see it more as a "gently condescending chuckle," but the offer to have one's soap reviewed by this scholar is a great chance for someone to take up if they really have found this goose that lays golden eggs.

So, if I really DID have such an animal, his manner is something that would goad me even more to prove him wrong.  However, I would not want to take up the gauntlet and be wrong.


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## FGOriold

Unfortunately some of those who are adamant that their liquid soap can be reduced to a pH of 7 and still be soap (and those who support these claims) are under the impression that they are not responsible for proving said claims and it is the doubters who must prove them wrong. Still, I saw this as an opportunity to settle the issue once and for all as it has been bantered about for months on many outlets/forums/blogs and cannot understand why one would not accept the challenge to settle the issue. It really just makes those with such claims less credible overall and is not how it works. Can you imagine what the world would be like if people could make any claim they wanted and put the onus of disproving the claim onto others? That is not how it works.


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## LBussy

But my pH paper is expensive and tells me my shaving soap is pH 7!!!!11111

Yeah, it's too bad we can't subpoena them to provide a sample.  Their customers will continue to believe what they say and never see the "inside baseball" that proves them to be a fraud.


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## Dorymae

LBussy said:


> So, if I really DID have such an animal, his manner is something that would goad me even more to prove him wrong.  However, I would not want to take up the gauntlet and be wrong.



I agree. As someone with a very strong personality (others have called it, stubborn as a three legged mule, and other things. . .) I found as I've gotten older I try to carefully pick my words. 

My father pulled me aside when I was young and told me that he could see I had his stubbornness and gave me some advice. He said, " when you believe you are right, don't back down, not if it is important to you - but when you learn you were wrong you need to stand up and admit it just as adamantly as you fought." 

Eating crow is one of the hardest things I've had to do. At times it was extremely embarrassing, but I found that when I did I was respected more for my willingness to do so than to stand stubbornly by a wrong idea. 

With age came wisdom, at least the wisdom to keep my mouth shut unless I was reasonably sure. Even now I eat crow occasionally, and the taste has never improved!


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## LBussy




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## Dana89

I don't know why but I get really angry when someone is completely lying about their soap. I saw a video of a woman who did M&P and as she was melting it she talking about the dangers of mixing Glycerin with aluminim  and she added PKO, CO and Shea for lather and a buttload of fresh goats milk to he MP, then she said she had to cure it for 8 weeks.
Yesterday I watched a CP video and in the comments a lady was trashing the soap saying she make her soap with pure Glycerin and even did a vid talking about her 100% glycerin soap with Rose EO! :roll: 
I think it bothers me so much b/c I see the comments and people say "I bought a bunch of glycerin and mine won't get hard in the molds, what am I doing wrong". The lady that said her soap was pure glycerin was not just uneducated about making soap, she was flat out lying through her teeth. I am sure it has to say soap base on the label. Then to say CP was gross and yucky made my blood pressure go up. I think that is the main reason that people who make MP say they get hostility from other soapers, because of the few that lie about using a base. 
Now if there are going to be people lying about their CP/HP  PH level that will create some hostility toward the soaping community as a whole.  Whatever you make, CP/HP/MP, if you are honest and educated about your soap and can be proud of it there is no reason to lie and put a dark spot on the soaping community.https://youtu.be/Pldk-XW6b7w


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## reinbeau

Oh please, that woman isn't lying, she's an idiot.  Sorry, but that's all it is.  She lives in a fairyland where she thinks as long as she believes it it's true.


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## Seawolfe

It makes me INSANE when people make claims that aren't tested by anyone else nor reproducible. I could claim rainbows shooting out of my cats butt, but without independent verification I'm just a crazy cat lady. BECAUSE SCIENCE!!

If he doesn't get any entries, I would really like to see him increase the range to 7.2 first and then 7.4, just to see if those other claims come to anything.


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## kchaystack

reinbeau said:


> Oh please, that woman isn't lying, she's an idiot.  Sorry, but that's all it is.  She lives in a fairyland where she thinks as long as she believes it it's true.



While I agree she is pretty out there, this is part of a religion, and that is all religion is - faith.  Not anything that can be done about it, because anyone who has that faith will trust it over our facts.  

Look at the people who think vaccines are bad for their children.  No amount of fact and studies will change their minds.  

So you have to do the best to teach those that are open to it, and just try to mitigate the damage.


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## IrishLass

kchaystack said:


> While I agree she is pretty out there, this is part of a religion, and that is all religion is - faith.


 

I can see where the things she says about the herbs may be a part of a religion, but I have my doubts about the glycerin part being a part of it...I think would take a lot of faith to believe that simply pouring hot glycerin into a mold would create soap (she specifically says that all she uses is just glycerin and the herbs). Unless by 'glycerin' she means glycerin soap base, but she does not say that. 

IrishLass


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## Saponista

This is a prime example of how being completely deluded in your own beliefs, and then having other people who follow you keep feeding into those beliefs can lead to some severe humiliation.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I[/ame]


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## kchaystack

IrishLass said:


> I can see where the things she says about the herbs may be a part of a religion, but I have my doubts about the glycerin part being a part of it...I think would take a lot of faith to believe that simply pouring hot glycerin into a mold would create soap (she specifically says that all she uses is just glycerin and the herbs). Unless by 'glycerin' she means glycerin soap base, but she does not say that.
> 
> IrishLass



Oh yeah, I think that is just her not understanding what she is using.  It has to be glycerin melt and pour.  I was more talking about the 'magical' properties of her herbs.


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## Dorymae

I watched that video and honestly I don't think she thought she was lying. She was just a bit of a strange duck. It was obvious she was into the mystical, magic and Wicca pretty heavily and in regards to the mystic she was telling about benefits according to that belief. 

When she said glycerin, you could tell she meant soap, as in melt and pour. I doubt she has ever seen true glycerin, if she had she would realize it is a liquid and doesn't need melting.  I think she just uses the word glycerin instead of M&P. Many people refer to M&P as glycerin soap even though all handcrafted soap could be called glycerin soap.


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## Dana89

@ DoryMae-  I don,t think she meant soap b/c she said the only ingredients in her soap is Glycerin, herbs and EOs. Rose EOs at that. Plus on the Cp video comment she wrote "yucky, I make 100 percent Glycerin soap, this is full of chemicals" or something to that effect. However she did talk about using color for soap only and not food coloring. 
I could have misunderstood her but that is not hard to do when she is talking.
As far as the herbal claims, I think the general public will take that with a grain of salt.
Just looking through youtube I am amazed at how many people believe that you can make soap with lye never being part of the process. Most no-lye videos will say it can,t be done but you can make it without handling it, but some just claim its no lye.


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## Susie

Dorymae said:


> I agree. As someone with a very strong personality (others have called it, stubborn as a three legged mule, and other things. . .) I found as I've gotten older I try to carefully pick my words.
> 
> My father pulled me aside when I was young and told me that he could see I had his stubbornness and gave me some advice. He said, " when you believe you are right, don't back down, not if it is important to you - but when you learn you were wrong you need to stand up and admit it just as adamantly as you fought."
> 
> Eating crow is one of the hardest things I've had to do. At times it was extremely embarrassing, but I found that when I did I was respected more for my willingness to do so than to stand stubbornly by a wrong idea.
> 
> With age came wisdom, at least the wisdom to keep my mouth shut unless I was reasonably sure. Even now I eat crow occasionally, and the taste has never improved!



^This.  Exactly, precisely, this.  My daddy had pretty much the exact same talk with me.  The taste of crow has never improved, I occasionally avoid it by thinking better before I speak.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Just watched some of that video.

Oh


my 


word!


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## hmlove1218

Ha! That video.. Honestly IMO he deserved that. Couldn't even show the proper respect to his opponent in the beginning.. Very disrespectful not to bow to your opponent and to shake with one hand.


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## LBussy

Oh.
My.
God.

She filled the mold halfway with glycerine ...

I was going to write a rant - I settled for voting it down.


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## reinbeau

LBussy said:


> Oh.
> My.
> God.
> 
> She filled the mold halfway with glycerine ...
> 
> I was going to write a rant - I settled for voting it down.


I watched a few painful moments - and also voted it down.


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## new12soap

I am not at all surprised there have been no submissions. The people that claim their soap is pH 7 are using syndets, are lying, or are just plain wrong. Anyone using syndets in the bars are automatically exluded (because syndets are not soap), anyone lying has no interest in being caught lying, and the people that really and truly and sincerely believe they are correct will never trust someone else's results.

True believers will always find a rationalization. Always. _That scientist guy could just say whatever he wants, whether he tested anything or not, we are supposed to just believe what he says?_ The video linked in this thread, if that guy has any followers that really believe he can just knock people over without ever touching them, I am certain will come up with a way to claim the fight was fixed. There must have been a magnetic field or something.

As for the glycerin and MP question, oh yes people do believe it. I have seen threads with people complaining that they bought 2 gallons of glycerin and it isn't hardening. They REALLY think that glycerin and MP soap base are synonymous, they do not know the difference. They have and will argue that their soap is pure glycerin and uses no lye.

People will almost never change their minds. Once they "learn" something, that's it, there is no amount of fact or evidence that will sway them. That is the problem with so many things on the internet. If a beginning soapmaker reads that you should use a specific oil as a superfat in CP soap, then use that method for a period of time, you will have a very hard time convincing them that they are wasting their time. That probably plays a part in the MP vs CP wars, wherever you started and what you "learned" in the beginning dicates the attitude about the process. Same with testing pH in general. _Well, the person I learned from used strips to test every batch, and I have always tested every batch, that's how I know my soap is safe._ Once the mind is made up, don't bother trying to confuse them with facts.


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## Dorymae

new12soap said:


> People will almost never change their minds. Once they "learn" something, that's it, there is no amount of fact or evidence that will sway them. That is the problem with so many things on the internet. If a beginning soapmaker reads that you should use a specific oil as a superfat in CP soap, then use that method for a period of time, you will have a very hard time convincing them that they are wasting their time. That probably plays a part in the MP vs CP wars, wherever you started and what you "learned" in the beginning dicates the attitude about the process. Same with testing pH in general. _Well, the person I learned from used strips to test every batch, and I have always tested every batch, that's how I know my soap is safe._ Once the mind is made up, don't bother trying to confuse them with facts.



Perhaps that is true of very narrow minded people, but I don't think it is true of everyone. I try to learn new things and if they conflict with something I learned then I do a bit of research to see if the new idea has merit or whether there is a flaw in the way I learned. Many times I find that what I thought was important was not or that what I thought was a benefit really made no difference at all. 

For me without this thought process we no longer grow but become stagnant in our ways and methods.


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## LBussy

I think the "people" new12soap was referring to are the hardheaded people we're generally discussing.


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## FGOriold

Here is a visual as to what happens to your liquid soap when you attempt to lower the pH beyond what it wants to be - soap is an alkaline product and trying to change the chemical reality of that will alter the make-up of your soap converting it non-soap components and slowly reduce your overall soap content. This in turn reduces the lathering capabilities and the overall functionality as a cleanser. 

I have just concluded several tests on lowering pH and how too more accurately measure pH keeping several variables in mind that will affect readings thanks to the many helpful chemists out in the soaping world who so willingly share their knowledge.

All the images and reading results are on my blog (link in signature) as it is way to much information to post it all here.


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## IrishLass

Thank you so much for sharing, Faith! Many people need to see this!


IrishLass


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