# I've got some old Olive Oil



## Grecophile (Nov 12, 2009)

Our new/old house in Greece came with a couple of big pots (pithoi) in the basement with old olive oil in - probably over 100 litres.  It smells & tastes a bit rancid, but is pretty clear.  I would not want to use it in cooking.  There was also a carrier bag full of crudely made olive oil soap blocks .... which got me thinking.  A few questions though:
1. Can I use old olive oil to make soap?  If so what do I do to make it smell better?
2. Where do I find 'lye' in UK in small quantity (or locally on Lesvos if it's too danderouse to pack in my suitcase).
3. I've seen 'caustic soda' also mentioned.  Is it the English name for lye, or just a similar product.  If so do I use the same quatities as for lye in olive oil soap recipes I've found. (Any other recipe suggestions for pure olive oil soap?)
4. Can I start my experimenting by purifying the crudely made  soap bars found.  Do they just melt down to add a fragrance oil, or do I mix with water & boil first, or what?
Looking forward to suggestions.


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## nup (Nov 12, 2009)

Hello and welcome to the SMF! :wink:
I live in Athens, Greece and I could tell you were to buy lye in Athens if you ever came this way. I've never been to  Lesvos although I hear it is a very beautiful island. I'm pretty sure that if you google about lye in Lesvos you will come up with absolutely nothing so your best bet is to ask locally once you get there. Chances are if you found soap already someone made it using lye so...
Oh, also, I wouldn't pack any lye in my suitcase if I were to fly, I wouldn't know how it reacts under pressure or what levels of humidity are expected in an airplane. It's better to ask airport related people about what is/is not allowed to take with you. 

Caustic soda with chem. type NaOH is lye. Just so you know, Greeks use mostly the term "caustic soda" not so much "sodium hydroxide".

Now about the old olive oil, I wouldn't use it. It sounds rancid and it'd be best to get rid of it. It may seem a waste but if you can stomach it try to take a whiff of every separate pot and if it's good, use it, if it stinks don't. And most definitely do not use it for cooking. 

I can't help you with rebatching (never done it) so hopefully someone else with more experience will chime in.


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## Grecophile (Nov 12, 2009)

Thanks nup - as it seems mostly US people on this forum, I didn't expect to get a reply from Greece so yours is a bonus and helpful.  Good to know the local terminology so I can ask for 'caustic soda' when there. It says καυστική σόδα (kavstiki soda - English letters equiv in case needed here) in my dictionary so perhaps a Greek word!
If I can't use the old oil for soap, then what else - maybe to fill lamps with wicks?
Yes, Lesvos is a beautiful island, especially our new area in the south (Polichnitos) - you should visit some time.  I'm looking forward to going back for more works on the house Dec/Jan and to escape over commercialised Christmas in UK.


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## Absinthe (Nov 12, 2009)

Couple of things come to mind. Lye comes in several different names.

Lye is either NaOH or KOH, being Sodium Hydroxide (Caustic Soda) or Potassium Hydroxide (Pot Ash). Both will make soap, NaOH traditionally makes hard bar soap, and KOH makes soft liquid soap. Lye in its pure form is sold under a few different names as either dry or crystal drain cleaner, and recently I heard that some places sell it in liquid form as well. Check the label to be sure it is in fact 100% lye. 

Places that sell pool chemistry may either carry or can get lye. There are also online sources as chemical supply as well as soap making, and you should be able to find them linked around here. Also keep an eye open for biodiesel places. They use mostly KOH but anyone that can get one can get the other. 

2 other thoughts on lye. Worst case scenario, you can make it yourself. Lye is the product of slowly dripping soft water (rain water) through hard wood ash. When an egg or potato will float well enough to reveal about a quarter size above the water in it then you have lye water strong enough to make soap. (Very traditional)

Another thought, and I have not tried this, but am currently researching the prospect:

Pickling or Slaked Lime (Calcium Hydroxide) is available for cooking canning brick mortar and the like. Washing Soda (Sodium Carbonate)(Soda Ash) is also available in many a grocery as a laundry additive, or it could be made by heating Baking Soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) in the oven at 450 for a couple hours. 

These 2 are weaker bases than NaOH (Sodium Hydroxide) lye and were used in the past to make soap, but it was a very long process compared to using lye. However, I have come across some statements suggesting that mixing those two solutions together would result in Lye Water, with calcium carbonate precipitate that I guess could simply be filtered out.  It seems a bit too easy, but maybe not. 

If the oil is, in fact, rancid I am pretty sure that you will not be happy with the resulting soap made from it, as it will carry the smell with it, and affect texture as well. When people talk about DOS (dreaded orange spots) that is a result of fats gone rancid after the soap is made. Rancid=Bad.

The rancidity is caused by oxidation. Basically your oil has rusted  This is what they speak of when anti-oxidants are discussed. When the natural anti-oxidants are used up them the oxygen starts reacting with the rest of the pieces of the oil and begins breaking it down. And it smells bad and loses nutritional value and doesn't taste so hot either.

Another thought is, perhaps you can make something else from the oil. Have you considered bio-diesel? Using a little methanol and lye you can actually break the oil into glycerin and bio-diesel ... steal the glycerin and toss the rest or use it to fuel your vehicle or heat unit or something... Lots of articles on simple ways to do that experiment.


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## nup (Nov 13, 2009)

Grecophile said:
			
		

> Thanks nup - as it seems mostly US people on this forum, I didn't expect to get a reply from Greece so yours is a bonus and helpful.  Good to know the local terminology so I can ask for 'caustic soda' when there. It says καυστική σόδα (kavstiki soda - English letters equiv in case needed here) in my dictionary so perhaps a Greek word!
> If I can't use the old oil for soap, then what else - maybe to fill lamps with wicks?
> Yes, Lesvos is a beautiful island, especially our new area in the south (Polichnitos) - you should visit some time.  I'm looking forward to going back for more works on the house Dec/Jan and to escape over commercialised Christmas in UK.



You're most welcome, I'm glad to be of help! I wish I could visit as it sounds totally paradisaical...
Apparently I'm the only greek in this forum  
And yes, that is the correct spelling of the thing.
In any case once you're there ask around you'll be amazed at what you can find in old island shops. You may not be able to find fancy soap additives but I think Absinthe has a point about the pool chemistry stores. 
In fact Absinthe has many good points there.
If you decide to order online I can tell you that there is no such thing in greece! Nobody sells lye online! I have to buy mine locally (I'm not complaining mind you!) but if you're away from Athens you can only count on local sources or the european internet. 

Now, I wouldn't know what on earth can be done with rancid oil, but I'm sure islanders will. Ask the older ones. When you live in an island with limited resources you tend to make the most of them! 

Another thing I find very convenient in Greece is that you can get very nice hydrosols (citrus flowers and rose) They can be found even in local supermarkets and they are dirt cheap, people use them in foods and pastries, so if you're making small batches like I do they are really handy. The scent doesn't carry as well as I would like to but while the soap is still fresh you can still smell it and the end result feels somewhat more refreshing and flowery.

If there's anything else I can help with just ask me


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## Grecophile (Nov 13, 2009)

My thanks to both of you.  I don't think I'll be getting the chemistry set out on Lesvos, but will look for caustic soda.  Actually there is a 'soap maker' near us in Skala Polichnitou who I will ask about caustic soda supplies if I decide to make some with new oils.  I did ask if she wanted my old oil, but they only use fresh.
The bio fuel sounds a good use if we find someone who needs it - possibly a man called Nondas in Sigri who has built his own open car/truck from a boat engine, bits of wood, unmatching wheels, car seat, etc.    
No response re saving a bit for candles or lamps.  perhaps I could add some perfumed oils?
Anyone got ideas for improving the old blocks of soap?
As a newcomer, I'm confused as to where this post is - can't find it on Soap Making forum or the 'General' forum, only from following the links in my email inbox.


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## Tabitha (Nov 15, 2009)

You started the thread in the announcements forum. Since it was about making  CP soap, I moved it to the CP soap area.


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## Absinthe (Nov 15, 2009)

I am not certain what you want to do as far as improving the old soap. What you are looking for, however, is called "rebatching" or "milling" 

The idea is softening up the soap (grated or cut up) with either heat or water or both and once it is in semi-liquid state doing stuff to it. 

You can add colors, or scents or additives (flowers and herbs and spices and so forth) then either remold, or make balls (like with your hands) or whatever shapes make you happy and let it set. This is usually done as last resort with a failed or seized batch of soap, or one that just didn't come out as planned. But it can be fun.

Another thing you can do with the soap, is shave it up and add some borax and washing soda and make laundry detergent. (Search around, there are recipes and instructions all over the place)

Another thing that I have seen done, is to make transparent soap. This usually involved melting the soap up and adding sugar, alcohol and sometimes glycerin. Search on "Making Transparent Soap" and you will see lots of posts and articles about that. 

Now back to your oil. There are ways to "fix" rancid oil. Remember the problem is that it has combined with oxygen. So the key is to remove the oxygen. If you are willing to experiment, you may try alcohol, or boiling it with activated charcoal or I think a small amount of nitric acid. Here is a piece of an old text that discusses some of the ways 

http://books.google.com/books?id=LQRXUJ ... q=&f=false

Here is another thought:

If you take the rancid oil and jsut go ahead and make soap out of it, it will work. You may not be happy with the color or smell or texture or whatever. Once you are done with it, you can process it with an acid. Let's say vinegar or better choice might be HCl (Muriatic acid) This will actually break down the soap salts, and release the glycerin, and create globules of specific fatty acids probably mostly oleic acid if it was olive oil soap. You can filter the precipitate out which will be table salt if you used HCl or sodium acetate if you used vinegar (used as fake vinegar flavoring and other junk) 

You can use the resulting acid globs as soap additives, or actually make soap from them mixing them with lye again. They will be lacking the glycerin, but you will have a whole bunch of water with glycerin dissolved in it to play with 

You can also make biodiesel from it. This involves getting methyl alcohol and potassium hydroxide and mixing them with the oil. When you are done you will have biodiesel (good fro whatever diesel is good for) and glycerin which biodiesel producers consider a waste product. However, you will find people here that have made soap using the waste glycerin from the biodiesel industry.

This wasn't meant to be all the specifics on how to do any of these things. They will require research on their own to accomplish. But certainly these are not the only thing you can do with them either.

Here is another interesting thought. Most times I see talk about using olive oil as a carrier oil for herbal infusions extractions and such with the justification that "Olive Oil Will Not Go Rancid" ... perhaps this is proof that statement is wrong. Or perhaps what you have might not be olive oil, or at least not pure olive oil.


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## Grecophile (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks for putting this in the right section, Tabitha,
And thanks for all your useful comments Absinthe.  I think I will experiemnt first with some of the old soap blocks when I get a chance, to remake soap with a fragrance and/or make some washing detergent too.
I had wondered if the oil really is from olives as it is pale, then reently bought some 'pomace' olive oil for cooking which looks the same colour.  As the least quality olive oil which uses chemicals to strip the last of the oil after pressing, perhaps it is less pure and more susceptible to going rancid.  It's not VERY bad smelling, so I may have a go and see if it will work, perhaps with a fairly strong herbal fragrance like rosemary. 
The old chemistry book you directed me to looked interesting.  Maybe I should try boiling the oil with charcoal before the soap making.  I guess it's just charcoal as you use for barbecues - or we could make some in our 'exo fournos'.
I think I shall have fun with it all on our next trip to Greece.


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## Absinthe (Nov 16, 2009)

When they speak of charcoal, there are 2 kinds "animal" charcoal and hardwood charcoal. I assume the animal stuff is burned up bones and such. The hardwood or plant charcoal is made form wood that is not pine or fir and stuff like that, but rather fruit woods or other hardwoods like oak and maple. 

Be careful of the stuff you buy for the bar-b' it may contain chemicals for helping get the fire started. 

What I would use if I were trying would be "Activated Charcoal" You can get this in pool and fish tank supply places (for use in filtration). It is also used in the liquor industry for mellowing whiskeys and such. It may also be available in the pharmacy because they use it for poisonings (counteracting poisons). They make you swallow a bunch of it before they try to pump your stomach.


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## Grecophile (Nov 16, 2009)

Life on the Greek Islands is still wonderfully simple.  That's why we like the life there.  The barbecue charcoal is not likely to have lighting chemicals in, but I don't know if I can find out if it is from pine or perhaps locally made olive wood (which I guess is a hard wood.)  We've seen the charcoal makers beside olive groves.
To the best of my knowledge there are no fishtank suppliers on Lesvos, possibly pool supplies somewhere but certainly not in our village, so I'm unlikley to find 'activated' charcoal.  Lesvos is surrounded by a big swimming pool known as The Aegean Sea, with still quite a few fish in! :wink:


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## Absinthe (Nov 16, 2009)

Hmm, well I say that because if you know what people use it for, you can figure out where to buy it. 

Charcoal is a filter material. They use it to filter drinking water, pool water, fish tank water, hot tub water, whiskey, humidifier water, and those air purifiers. 

It is used medically in hospitals, and pharmacies as a poison antidote and in their O2 humidifiers. Or you could simply burn a bunch of wood or palm leaves or whatever and collect up the black ash. 

Ok, now I have to ask this and please don't be offended. Lesvos is the same just different spelling as Lesbos right? And someone from there would be referred to as a Lesvian or Lesbian (depending on the spelling). Does it get irritating to hear the term used to refer to homosexual women as well? or perhaps that is not as prevalent outside of the states. Or does it get to be a big joke or something. I always said that if I met someone from Lesbos, I would ask, and now I have. I hope I have not offended you in the process. (I am kind of a word-geek)


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## Grecophile (Nov 16, 2009)

Nothing to do with soap making but...
In Greek letters it is Λεσβος - but the β beta is pronounced like 'v' so better to write & say it as Lesvos in English.  There was a Lesvian guy (from the island of Lesvos) who has an organic winery on the island, Methymnaios, and took some Greek Gay men & Lesbian women's organisation to court last year to say they could not use the island name in their title.  Sadly he lost, because I agree it is a shame that the word has been hi-jacked.  What's wrong with just saying gay men & women?  
Many Greeks refer to their sland by the name of its main towen Mytilini.
There are several reasons put forward as to why the Lesbian term is used - one that Sappho the ancient poetess comes from the island (her birthplace Eresos attracts a lot of gay women but also many straight couples & Greek tourists), She wrote some erotic verse (mostly destroyed) she was married to a man and is said to have killed herself for unrequited love of another man - but she did have a school for girls on the island, around 5th century BC.  The other suggestion, as the terminology seems comparatively recent, is that the first Greek all women prison was on the island and produced (or housed) a few women of that persuasion.
Now you know.  Lesvos is a beautiful island that welcomes all - I hope you get to check it out some day.


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## Absinthe (Nov 16, 2009)

I was just thinking of the interesting potential for word play such as "Male Lesbian" "Straight Lesbian" and so on and so forth. 

Interestingly enough, at least in the political circles there is an attempt for one to separate themselves from the other. So we get the phrase "Gays and Lesbians."  So we get organizations like PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Gays and Lesbians". Seems that lesbians and women have their political issues and male homosexuals have their own as well and only sometimes do they share. I think more recently they have come together a bit more (politically) but once they were comfortable with the name why change it. Seemingly, lesbian is a term that does not have so much derogatory implications as the other options the males have. Certainly they will not start calling themselves Sodomites, and the other terms like queer and fag and stuff are just nasty sounding. 

Sorry, this was all off topic, hope your oil gets fixed... Did you ever find a source for lye yet? I believe I had a major brain cramp and forgot the MOST OBVIOUS route for you to try... 

I hear they have olives there. As in orchards or whatever you grow olives on. When they package olives, they treat them with lye. Talk to the olive people.


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## carebear (Nov 16, 2009)

I don't want to discourage you from soaping or from experimenting, but I think I will offer advice based on my background and experiences.

Here's MY advice.  It's just that - MY ADVICE.  Take it, leave it, whatever works for you.

1.  I really suggest that you don't make your own lye, except for fun and even then I recommend against it.  The stuff you get from dripping water through ashes won't be precisely sodium hydroxide, and you won't know it's strength.  So mess about if you are bored but don't expect stellar soap.  And for bob's sake be careful - the stuff dripping out will be caustic and you don't want people (kids!) or animals getting into it.   If you wish to pursue this then make sure you have a safe and secure setup.

2.  It's my considered opinion, and my degree is in Food Chemistry, that you cannot fix rancid oil.  If you could it would be a boon to the food industry as they could re-use their cooking oils instead of replacing them - but you simply cannot in any reasonable manner.  Even if you remove the odor it's still oxidized and will make either soap that's bad right from the start or will go bad quickly.  It's my suggestion that you don't waste precious lye on it.   People who have been soaping for a while know that olive does go rancid fairly quickly - in fact Olive Oil soaps are more likely to develop DOS than soaps made with most other oils.  It's sad, because castiles are best when they are years old, but keeping them that long can be hard if you don't start with fresh oil and store it and the resulting soaps properly.

3.  In my experience - boiling your olive oil will actually promote oxidation.  Boiling introduces both heat and oxygen both of which promote oxidation.  Mixing it with, or filtering it through impure charcoal ashes may well introduce contaminants.

4.  I'd not play with hydrocholoric acid (or if you wish, muriatic acid tho that's not a modern term AFAIK) is serious stuff - powerful and dangerous if not handled very carefully.  And for bob's sake keep it away from the lye!!!  Acid + base = REACTION!  If you cannot buy lye it's unlikely you'll have a source for this (tho you can always vomit - it's the acid in your stomach).

5.  Rebatching sounds like a plan, but rebatching old soap is challenging.  Grate it finely and heat it with a small amount of liquid (I recommend milk over water) until it softens and becomes liquid-ish.  It won't pour but you may be able to glop it.  Stir in what you wish and mold.  It works much better with fresh soap, and gets harder as the soap gets harder.  Certainly worth a try, though.  I'd do it in a crockpot with a good lid, or in a boil-in-bag (you can use a crockpot liner if you have access to one) which is relative heat proof.  Put the soap and the liquid in it and put into a pot (a BIG pot) of boiling water.  Wear heavy gloves and take it out and smoosh the soap around periodically.

6.   Whether or not you can pack lye in your suitcase will depend on the rules of the airline and your ruling bodies.   I'd think not but am unsure about this.  

I love soaping.  It feels GOOD to do, and the result is deeply satisfying.  I hope you can find a way!  You deserve the joy.


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## dagmar88 (Nov 16, 2009)

Absinthe said:
			
		

> When they package olives, they treat them with lye. Talk to the olive people.



True. Not cause they      olives though   NaOH is used in the production of loads of different foods. In this case it is used to soften the olives.

In europe you are not allowed to send sodium hydroxide by airmail; so I'm sure you won't be able to take it with you.
However, you should be able to get it quite easily; it is used as drain cleaner (look for pure sodium hydroxide, NaOh; this comes in pallets and is commonly used) and Greece has a history of soapmaking.

loads of other soap making ingredients you should be able to find at Aldi.


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## Tabitha (Nov 16, 2009)

Sodium hydroxide is classified as a hazardous substance and must meet specific transport regulations per your area.

Rancid oils should be thrown away.

The story of Sappho the Greek poet/philosopher has always been a favorite of mine.


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## Grecophile (Nov 19, 2009)

*Good advice*

Some good advice there Carebear.  As I said earlier on, I don't think I'll be getting out my chemistry set - or making lye.  
Nop said I should be able to get 'caustic soda' on Lesvos, so if I do try new soap making I'll use that.  I think I've been sufficiently put off using the old oil for soap though maybe I'll try a small sample for washing detergent as suggested, and the rest for bio fuel if I can find someone who wants it. I hate waste!
I'll also try rebatching/melting down some of the block soaps, adding a fragrance.
Thank you everyone.  It's been great to hear all your suggestions and side-tracks.


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