# When to start selling



## Donee' (Feb 3, 2019)

When you start a new job - you learn about the job and the company and the products on the job dont you?  Same with soaping.

BUT I would say that start with melt and pour - it makes your life so much easier.

I started soaping with MP when I urgently needed cash - so I began immediately to make and sell - havent looked back - had a bit of a hiccup in the whole thing for the past year but am getting back into it immediately.

I see from other threads that the rule seems to be to wait a year.  I dont agree.
Start selling from day 1 - but start with MP.
Aside from burning it (which I just did the other day) there is so very little that can go wrong.

And its a great motivator to keep going and keep selling.

My mantra is "if you going to do it then do it"

Having started my last two jobs with absolutely no experience - i gained that experience from learning on the job and from the feedback I received.

Nothing quite like the feeling of having an idea, getting the stuff together, making it (well in MP its a case of chopping it up and shoving it in the microwave - go check out youtube before doing it my way though) and then wrapping it pretty and off it goes.
Use the cash you make to buy the oils and then start with CP.

Saying that people should wait a year is making people spend cash they may not have and its a very very long time until you can see pennies in your pocket for your hard work.

Richard Branson said it well "JUST DO IT" (or was that Nike - I need coffee and cigarettes to get my brain working)


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## LilyJo (Feb 3, 2019)

I know that rules are very different across the world but in reality no one should just rock up with a batch of M&P they have made and start selling.

Whatever you make and sell you need to understand how its made and why - and aside from the legalities of what you suggest - if you are selling you need insurance, you need correct legally compliant labels (this depends on where you sell and the rules therein), you need to ensure that the products you produce are safe.  If you dont understand what you are doing or why, how do you know what the safe level of fragrance is and how that can vary with EO and FO? How do you know what colourants or additives to use safely?  

Yes the suggested wisdom is to make soap consistently for a year before you sell and whilst M&P doesnt need the long cure time of CP, anyone who has made soap whether that is M&P or CP knows that the soap they produce in month 1 is vastly different to the soap produced in month 12. There is so much more to be gained in perfecting your art than rushing ahead.

I understand your enthusiasm but for anyone who lives in the EU (including the UK, whatever happens with Brexit) legally you cannot start selling on day one, you need safety assessments for any product that is sold, no matter whether that is CP or M&P.  I know that probably doesnt apply to SA but please understand that 'just do it' doesnt apply to everyone.


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## atiz (Feb 3, 2019)

I have the suspicion that most people on this forum started soaping not because they needed money but because they tried it as a hobby and liked it --- liked the experimenting and the learning that comes with it. (That's certainly how I started recently and why it never even occurred to me to sell my soap --- I won't). There are better (and safer) ways to earn money quickly if you really need to; but selling soap without being entirely familiar with its effects on people seems like a bad idea. You can't open a restaurant before you learn cooking.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Feb 3, 2019)

Yeah, i mean, sell your MP lots of people do it, i just wouldnt go buy a cheap base, decorate it and sell it because that just perpetuates the thought that MP soap os for decoration only cause as a soap its horrible. Truly that is the thinking here. 


Now, if we are talking about CP then I completelly disagree. Its not about you and the money you spend, I am sorry, but if you want a cheap hobby this is not it. Its cool to want to make money back, but for that you need to wait. If you want to open a business then I would consider another busines and not this one.


There is a pletora of reasons why selling CO right of the bat is a very bad idea. The first one i can come up with is that when people make their first batch, they dont actually know all that they are doing and why. Just take a look at the amount of threads asking for help after a first failed batch. It happens a lot. Then there is the curing time debate, the HP vs CP debate, the oil ratios and the additives and there is a bunch of stuff you HAVE to know before selling. How about how your recipe behaves after some months? Whay if they end up with DOS? How long does your fragrance last on your soaps? Cause a customer will be mad if you sold them a great smelling soap just to be a non smelling soap in a few months. 


So while i do think you can sell MP and get money to start CP, i would absolutelly not sell CP before a year of making soap.


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## Meena (Feb 3, 2019)

Donee', the suggestion to wait a year is also to gain the experience and knowledge of how your recipes age -- for example,  whether they go on to develop DOS -- and to give the soaps time to complete their internal chemical reactions, to become harder and longer-lasting (which is only fair to your customers), and become fully mild (which probably varies by recipe.  My soaps aren't old enough for me to have gone through this phase with them yet and fully understand what's meant by becoming mild.)  A 1 week old soap is not the same soap it will be at 4 months, 6 months, 1 year, or 5 years. 

Periodically, during the year before selling, repeated testing is done, and notes are made about each soap. Also during this time, people are tweaking and perfecting their recipe(s), based on what they learn. Then you know, for each recipe, what an optimum cure time might be, all factors being equal (which they rarely will be exactly equal -- seasons change, humidity/dryness changes, age of oil from one purchase to the next, so many small but cumulative factors such as these).

Here is a moderately technical, 100% fascinating, and pretty thorough explanation of the "internal chemical reactions" I mentioned in the first sentence:  https://classicbells.com/soap/cure.html


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## IrishLass (Feb 3, 2019)

The 'wait a year' advice we advocate very stongly here on SMF refers to lye-based soap, not necessarily MP. The two types of soap are very different animals from each other. With handmade lye-based soap (aka CP and HP) so many things can go wonky in the months after unmolding....things like DOS (rancidity), scent morphing and/or fading, color morphing and/or fading, etc.  The trouble with these kind of problems is that they don't rear their ugly heads right away. For example, DOS doesn't usually show up until at least a month has gone by, but it can show up months later as well. DOS normally has to do with a problem with your formula.... for example, too much linoleic acid in your formula combined with living in a high humidity climate is one of the big causes of DOS (not the only one, though). The 'wait a year before selling' advice gives you time to work out these details and to perfect your formula, and make sure your scents and colors are compatible/work well with it and that your soap can stand the test of time when exposed to different stresses over a period of months. Why months? Because many people who buy handmade soaps don't use them right away. They stick them under their bathroom sink until they 'get to it' eventually. If you know that your soap can last a year without developing DOS, and that your scents and colors will last at least a year without morphing or fading, that's a big positive for you and your business.    

Those of us that have been making handmade lye-based soap for awhile have heard one too many stories of folks that jumped right into selling their handmade CP or HP just two weeks after making their first batch that have lived to regret it... because their soap turned out to be icky a few months down the road. And we all can share stories of people we know that have sworn off ever buying handmade soap again because they happened to have bought some unknowingly from a newbie that ended up turning bad a few weeks after buying it and now they think that all handmade soap turns bad after a few weeks.  

You may disagree with our stance, that is your prerogative, but we've seen too much to change it.


IrishLass


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## atiz (Feb 3, 2019)

(This is about CP.) 
I made my very first batch almost 6 weeks ago now, so it is (mostly) cured. I got the recipe from a soapmaking book, and everything went as planned. 
Is it a good soap? Yes, it's pretty good. Is it great? No, I wouldn't say so. Would I do everything the same way again? No; I have learnt a ton since then. 
Even though it is an okay soap (i.e.: not too stripping, bubbles, feels pretty good, fragrance is already fading but nice blend of EOs), I would feel terrible selling it, since I think I can already make better ones -- and I can see this pattern repeating at least for a while. Maybe that's just the perfectionist in me but I can't see why someone would sell something they already see as somewhat mediocre. (Now there may be others whose first batch already reached perfection; it seems rare though.)


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## Marilyn Norgart (Feb 3, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> The 'wait a year' advice we advocate very stongly here on SMF refers to lye-based soap, not necessarily MP. The two types of soap are very different animals from each other. With handmade lye-based soap (aka CP and HP) so many things can go wonky in the months after unmolding....things like DOS (rancidity), scent morphing and/or fading, color morphing and/or fading, etc.  The trouble with these kind of problems is that they don't rear their ugly heads right away. For example, DOS doesn't usually show up until at least a month has gone by, but it can show up months later as well. DOS normally has to do with a problem with your formula.... for example, too much linoleic acid in your formula combined with living in a high humidity climate is one of the big causes of DOS (not the only one, though). The 'wait a year before selling' advice gives you time to work out these details and to perfect your formula, and make sure your scents and colors are compatible/work well with it and that your soap can stand the test of time when exposed to different stresses over a period of months. Why months? Because many people who buy handmade soaps don't use them right away. They stick them under their bathroom sink until they 'get to it' eventually. If you know that your soap can last a year without developing DOS, and that your scents and colors will last at least a year without morphing or fading, that's a big positive for you and your business.
> 
> Those of us that have been making handmade lye-based soap for awhile have heard one too many stories of folks that jumped right into selling their handmade CP or HP just two weeks after making their first batch that have lived to regret it... because their soap turned out to be icky a few months down the road. And we all can share stories of people we know that have sworn off ever buying handmade soap again because they happened to have bought some unknowingly from a newbie that ended up turning bad a few weeks after buying it and now they think that all handmade soap turns bad after a few weeks.
> 
> ...



with all the good advice given--I personally think to go ahead and start figuring out what all is involved in selling and making sure you have your ducks in a row when you have some knowledge on what your soap is going to do is probably not a bad idea.



atiz said:


> (This is about CP.)
> I made my very first batch almost 6 weeks ago now, so it is (mostly) cured. I got the recipe from a soapmaking book, and everything went as planned.
> Is it a good soap? Yes, it's pretty good. Is it great? No, I wouldn't say so. Would I do everything the same way again? No; I have learnt a ton since then.
> Even though it is an okay soap (i.e.: not too stripping, bubbles, feels pretty good, fragrance is already fading but nice blend of EOs), I would feel terrible selling it, since I think I can already make better ones -- and I can see this pattern repeating at least for a while. Maybe that's just the perfectionist in me but I can't see why someone would sell something they already see as somewhat mediocre. (Now there may be others whose first batch already reached perfection; it seems rare though.)



my first batch was nice scent but I had issues with partial gel and I realized I used spring water (got DOS in it too) the cuts weren't good (I am anal about straight even cuts)  it lathered good. the next I don't know how many batches had a lot of issues, overall the soap lathers nicely and isn't drying and I have figured out how to get nice cuts.  I am getting somewhat better at swirling but still have too many that I am not crazy about. if I found out I sold soap and the scent disappeared I would feel horrible.  I have given a lot of soap to friends where I have asked that I get all the constructive criticism they can give me (I have gotten some).  I have been told which scents already are fading.  I have also had some soaps that discolored with time too. I understand the reasons for waiting no matter how hard it is and it is hard


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## cmzaha (Feb 3, 2019)

There is a big difference with starting a new job, where you are working and learning under knowledgeable people. Making and selling soap is manufacturing which is not the same as working in a job. Manufacturing of any type takes money to get started. Depending on the products being manufactured, it can be a relative small amount of money or it can be in the hundreds of thousands. You simply cannot start manufacturing without an outlay of cash. 

When I start selling quite a few years ago I will say I made decent soap, but not great soap. I admit to selling to soon because of our downturn in the economy here and I was having to support 2 families. My daughter started with her m&p business and finally go me to go with cp soap. She did make a living at it for about 5 years and that turned too with to much competition. 

I still have some of my original printouts and I will say it was not bad soap, but soap I would not like today. But I will say even back in the beginning I did not make claims or feel soap was some kind of magic...No eczema soap, no anti soap etc.


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## Chris_S (Feb 3, 2019)

I would like to echo what @LilyJo said that south africa is one thing selling melt and pour but outside of your country there are all kinds of various rules and regulations i think to suggest that people just get out there and sell even if it is melt and pour is a very reckless thing to do. As already mentioned even melt and pour soap within the EU is heavily regulated about how its sold once purchased by the person who is buying to make and sell on still needs a safety certificate to show its been tested. If someone was to read this and not realise that thier country has separate regulations to yours and started just selling melt and pour soap as you suggested by jist waking up one day and deciding you wanna sell then they could find themselves in SERIOUS legal and finacial troubles not to mention the lack of insurence and starting up a business in order to sell legally and havinf declare any tax and earning they have got from the selling. That would come under the label of fraud if not declared especially if you are making a living from it. As i said i know the laws will be different for you i just think to suggest its THIS easy to start selling without pointing out that you should check laws regulations and having insurence all under a company name is very irresponsible not everyone will take the time to check if they see something like this post going unchallenged. Might sound harsh but i feel it needs to be said 

Oh and also i have to agree with the comments regarding it being a year after starting to sell its NOT to make you spend money at all why would the people who also make soap want you to spend money that they wont see a penny of? It wont even slightly benifit them. I started making soap because i liked the idea of challenging myself and seeing if it was something i would enjoy doing and yes it absoltly is something i enjoy doing and yes i want to start selling at some point but even after not far off 6 months i know im not ready to sell iv not even been to look at the competition locally yet because i know im just not ready and until i can produce something consistent that falls under our regulations i wont be looking at what else is around. For the eu people here i would suggest mp soap isnt even really worth selling because it costs 180 quid for 8 variations ect regardless of if its mp or lye handmade soaps.


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## Hendejm (Feb 3, 2019)

I’m in the fence about this 1 year before selling idea.....I totally understand what’s been said here regarding you need to be able to test results over time, dos,etc. 

However - I’ve made over 500 bars of soap, I’ve used them, I’ve given them away, I’ve abused them under all sorts of conditions, I’ve tweeked recipes, I found a recipe that works over the last few months, I’ve put them in my Airbnb...and people are asking to buy them from me. I have been saying that I don’t sell but I may in the future....but recently I decided to sell some bars. They understand the risks of something that hasn’t been tested for a year and agreed to purchase anyway. There is substantial cost involved with making soap!  I would like to cover some of those costs. Should I feel guilty or wrong?  Maybe not. Will it bite me in the butt? Possibly. Am I willing to take the risk? Yes.  

I’ve done my homework, I’ve researched ALOT, I’ve tested them, people like them, it won’t kill them if they do lose their scent or develop DOS, so in the end I made a judgement call and decided to start selling. That works for me but may not be right/appropriate for others. 

I have a business license, I will pay taxes when due (quarterly), I properly label the soaps to comply with regulations, I purchased insurance. So I am happy with my decision.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Feb 3, 2019)

Hendejm said:


> I’m in the fence about this 1 year before selling idea.....I totally understand what’s been said here regarding you need to be able to test results over time, dos,etc.
> 
> However - I’ve made over 500 bars of soap, I’ve used them, I’ve given them away, I’ve abused them under all sorts of conditions, I’ve tweeked recipes, I found a recipe that works over the last few months, I’ve put them in my Airbnb...and people are asking to buy them from me. I have been saying that I don’t sell but I may in the future....but recently I decided to sell some bars. They understand the risks of something that hasn’t been tested for a year and agreed to purchase anyway. There is substantial cost involved with making soap!  I would like to cover some of those costs. Should I feel guilty or wrong?  Maybe not. Will it bite me in the butt? Possibly. Am I willing to take the risk? Yes.
> 
> ...



At least you've done quite a few so in my head you are quite a few steps above those who make ONE batch of a recipe they found somewhere on the internets and didnt check them on a soap calculator and then decide they will sell at one week cure.

The one thing I do no not agree with is that this is a risk YOU are taking, by yourself. If something goes wrong and it could, but you may never experience, then that custmer, specially if it is a one time customer, doesnt like the soap cause it ended up with DOS or what have you, they wont buy anymore from you and they may not buy from anyone else either, and that hurts all of us. 

For some reason people lump together all the hand made soap. Its like, they know that if they dont like a cake from one place they very well might love the same kind of cake from someone else, but they dont make that distiction with soap. if they dont like a hand made soap, they just declare hand made soap is bad or just not good from them. At least hat's whay I've seen.


Having said, if I had an AIRBNBN i would totally put my soaps there for guests. Tried and true recipes of course.


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## Meena (Feb 4, 2019)

Donee' said:


> I started soaping with MP when I urgently needed cash - so I began immediately to make and sell - havent looked back - had a bit of a hiccup in the whole thing for the past year but am getting back into it immediately.
> 
> I see from other threads that the rule seems to be to wait a year.  I dont agree.
> Start selling from day 1 - but start with MP.
> Aside from burning it (which I just did the other day) there is so very little that can go wrong.



I happened to look at the Business Forum for the first time, and thought you might be interested in the stickie post.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/are-you-ready-to-sell-your-soap.16002/


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 4, 2019)

Can't you just put a 'best before' date on your soap to avert some responsibility if someone leaves it in their drawer for 2 years and then finds it all DOSsy and rancid?


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## Micchi (Feb 4, 2019)

I feel like a year is a good general guideline for when you're ready to sell, but I also don't feel like it's necessarily a hard-and-fast "you must wait a year".

There's a lot of factors that come into play. I grew up on a pretty self-sufficient farm. If I were to use my mother's lard soap recipe, I would feel confident selling after the first few test batches were cured - I grew up with that recipe, I know how the soap is supposed to feel at all stages of its curing, I know when and where to tweak and adjust it based on time of year and environmental factors. I have never made it by myself, only helped my mom make it, but I feel confident that I know exactly how to work with it. 

That also translated to me knowing, pretty well, a lot about cold process when I started doing it for myself. It also gave me a skillset that a lot of folks who have never done CP have to spend that year building - putting a process in place for measuring ingredients so I don't miss a step, how to safely work with lye, how to spot the various stages of trace the batter goes through, how to change plans mid-soap because it's not doing quite what I want it to, how to salvage a batch when things go drastically wrong. Because of that previous knowledge and understanding, I have yet to make a batch of soap that isn't good soap. Maybe not always exactly what I envisioned, but nothing that wasn't a product I would have been embarrassed to put my name on. I spent the past few years instead building other skills - coloring, working with FOs, learning how to do swirls and stripes and textured tops, researching the market and deciding what niches I wanted to cater to. 

Did I necessarily need to wait a year+ to start selling? Not really. I could have gone with the recipe I knew well and been selling a quality, simple bar of lard soap within four months of starting. But I wanted to build skills I didn't have, to cater to the market I wanted to create for. So instead of quality, simple bars of soap that I can churn out half asleep, my first launch will be artistic, whimsical pieces that I'm genuinely excited about, that will hopefully enable me to carve out my niche in the market and stand out.


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## Donee' (Feb 4, 2019)

Good discussion

Personally I dont believe that entrepeneurs should be restricted to a 1 year thing.

But I suppose that most people will have to do what they are confident in doing.

As far as giving hand made soap a bad name - thats what samples are for arent they.
The business side of it should go as follows - and I am referring to South Africa which is considered somewhat of a third world country.

Takes 48 hours to get a bar code

Takes 1 week to get a health inspection

Then its up to the entrepeneur to do the rest - branding, marketing, packaging.

Dont feel that you have to make 600 bars of soap before selling them.


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## amd (Feb 4, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> Can't you just put a 'best before' date on your soap to avert some responsibility if someone leaves it in their drawer for 2 years and then finds it all DOSsy and rancid?



I have a "care and feeding of soap" card that goes out with every sale. I recommend that people use soap within 6 months - but I know they won't. I have a handful of customers who buy once a year and buy 10 bars for the whole year. I used to guarantee my soap regardless, but have stopped after a handful of returns for faded scents 6+ months after the sale.



Donee' said:


> When you start a new job - you learn about the job and the company and the products on the job dont you? Same with soaping.



Your employer is covering your butt while you're learning - paying the insurance, telling you what you need to know, what you need to do, etc. If you're working for a cosmetics company, one would hope that they have done testing before they begin selling to customers. Same deal for making soap - you have to test before selling because you're the one covering your butt. 

Speaking from personal experience: I made soap for a year and a half - plain white unscented soap. One day I decided that I wanted to make pretty soap, saw how expensive fragrance and colors are, and decided the only way I could afford it was to start a business. Fifteen minutes later I was announcing to the world (aka FaceBook) that I had a soap business. DO NOT DO THAT. If I could go back I would buck up and learn what I can and can't do with fragrance and colors, and make sure I was really good at it. I did a huge disservice to my customers by making them pay for my learning curve. The only good thing was that I had a recipe that I knew would keep for at least 9 months. A few of my earlier recipes didn't keep as well. If I had started my business with those recipes, I probably wouldn't have a business at all.



Donee' said:


> As far as giving hand made soap a bad name - thats what samples are for arent they.


This is exactly what we mean - what if your soap samples are bad soap? If you're still learning, you may not know. (or as I've done a time two, I thought I knew and then discovered I didn't and it cost me money to fix it)



Donee' said:


> Dont feel that you have to make 600 bars of soap before selling them.


Please do make a LOT of soap before you start selling. Try things, see what they do, see how they age. Try different oils, try different recipes. And then see how they age. Make sure your processes are correct and repeatable. Make sure you know how to be profitable.


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## cmzaha (Feb 4, 2019)

Donee' said:


> Good discussion
> Personally I dont believe that entrepeneurs should be restricted to a 1 year thing.


Some folks actually wait more than a year. You are apparently not going to agree to anything we recommend, but again recommending to sell right after learning to make soap is Not good information for newbies. Maybe you do not have much competition where you live, but in the US the competition is brutal, so us sellers need to know we are selling the best soap. I only do one market now, but when I was doing 5 markets per week I would always be up against new soap sellers. Guess who sold and lasted at the markets and who did not... Markets here, are nowhere near as good as they were when I started so I do not waste my time and only do my one good weekly market now.
ETA Misspelling



Micchi said:


> I feel like a year is a good general guideline for when you're ready to sell, but I also don't feel like it's necessarily a hard-and-fast "you must wait a year".
> Did I necessarily need to wait a year+ to start selling? Not really. I could have gone with the recipe I knew well and been selling a quality, simple bar of lard soap within four months of starting..


A lot of people here use high amounts of lard, which I do not because it always starts smelling off or going rancid in time for me. I love the feel of lard soap, but it just does not work for me over 25%. This realization came after I was making and selling soap for a few years, and any soap I had  smelling off over several months had lard in higher percentages. That lead me to test a lot of different lard brands including fresh rendered at 100%. Some of the people here will remember how that turned out  Ironically I have the very first soap I made out of 100% lard is still not smelling off after close to 9 yrs. That is what led me to using high lard until something changed. I still have not figured out what the difference was other than the brand of the lard. Walmart no longer carries the brand I started with and I also purchase bulk blocks of lard now. This is why we tell soapmakers to test test test...


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## Donee' (Feb 4, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> Some folks actually wait more than a year. You are apparently not going to agree to anything we recommend, but again recommending to sell right after learning to make soap if Not good information for newbies. Maybe you do not have much competition where you live, but in the US the competition is brutal, so us sellers need to know we are selling the best soap. I only do one market now, but when I was doing 5 markets per week I would always be up against new soap sellers. Guess who sold and lasted at the markets and who did not... Markets here, are nowhere near as good as they were when I started so I do not waste my time and only do my one good weekly market now.
> 
> 
> A lot of people here use high amounts of lard, which I do not because it always starts smelling off or going rancid in time for me. I love the feel of lard soap, but it just does not work for me over 25%. This realization came after I was making and selling soap for a few years, and any soap I had  smelling off over several months had lard in higher percentages. That lead me to test a lot of different lard brands including fresh rendered at 100%. Some of the people here will remember how that turned out  Ironically I have the very first soap I made out of 100% lard is still not smelling off after close to 9 yrs. That is what led me to using high lard until something changed. I still have not figured out what the difference was other than the brand of the lard. Walmart no longer carries the brand I started with and I also purchase bulk blocks of lard now. This is why we tell soapmakers to test test test...



I have only questioned TWO threads - so the exaggeration of the above is completely out of order- apparently people arent allowed to question anything or bring forward new ideas either.



amd said:


> I have a "care and feeding of soap" card that goes out with every sale. I recommend that people use soap within 6 months - but I know they won't. I have a handful of customers who buy once a year and buy 10 bars for the whole year. I used to guarantee my soap regardless, but have stopped after a handful of returns for faded scents 6+ months after the sale.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even people who have been soaping for decades have mistakes and failed batches.  Its just the way of artisan production.


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## amd (Feb 4, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> You are apparently not going to agree to anything we recommend, but again recommending to sell right after learning to make soap if Not good information for newbies.





Donee' said:


> I have only questioned TWO threads - so the exaggeration of the above is completely out of order- apparently people arent allowed to question anything or bring forward new ideas either.



If Carolyn's quote from above is what you mean by "exaggeration", she is far from out of order. We (members on the forum) try to keep in mind that when posting on the forum it isn't only the OP who is reading what we write, but also new members. Input from experienced soapers is that for CP/HP soap, one should have at least a year of soapmaking. If you choose not to follow that, that's your inexperience talking and you take your own risks. As experienced soapmakers, we would like to protect the business side of soapmaking and that includes giving due warning to new soapmakers. We encourage questions and give reasonable explanations, but we certainly can't force you to listen to us. We'll keep repeating it though for others who are reading and may not have made up their mind or considered all consequences.



Donee' said:


> Even people who have been soaping for decades have mistakes and failed batches. Its just the way of artisan production.


Yes, but I'm not wanting to sell my mistakes. Does bad soap happen to me? Yes, but I've also enough experience to know not to sell it. New soap makers may not know it's bad and that's what experience is for.


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## Donee' (Feb 4, 2019)

amd said:


> If Carolyn's quote from above is what you mean by "exaggeration", she is far from out of order. We (members on the forum) try to keep in mind that when posting on the forum it isn't only the OP who is reading what we write, but also new members. Input from experienced soapers is that for CP/HP soap, one should have at least a year of soapmaking. If you choose not to follow that, that's your inexperience talking and you take your own risks. As experienced soapmakers, we would like to protect the business side of soapmaking and that includes giving due warning to new soapmakers. We encourage questions and give reasonable explanations, but we certainly can't force you to listen to us. We'll keep repeating it though for others who are reading and may not have made up their mind or considered all consequences.
> 
> 
> Yes, but I'm not wanting to sell my mistakes. Does bad soap happen to me? Yes, but I've also enough experience to know not to sell it. New soap makers may not know it's bad and that's what experience is for.


But you are coming across as autocratic and only prepared to preach dogma without considering other options, new ideas, new trends.  And if someone does have a dissenting opinion then they are labelled (i recall seeing myself being labelled a troll somewhere which I ignored), which immediately stops the more timid soapers from airing their own experiences or views.


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## amd (Feb 4, 2019)

Inexperience is not an option, new idea or new trend. The only way to move past inexperience is by doing. That is what we are telling you. If you do not want to wait and gain experience, that is your choice, but please don't tell other soapmakers to follow suit.


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## LilyJo (Feb 4, 2019)

Please remember that what works is SA in terms of being legal is NOT the same elsewhere.  As I keep banging on about, anyone selling ANY cosmetics (CP/HP/M&P/Lotion/Bath Bombs/Scrubs...anything) has to spend at least £180 per product to get it safety assessed. You cannot just start selling.

If you want to sell M&P or CP from day one and you are happy to take that risk then thats your choice but please dont suggest that everyone can or should do the same as for some people to do so would mean breaking the law.


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## SaltedFig (Feb 4, 2019)

It would be in breach of the law here too, LilyJo.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Feb 4, 2019)

Donee' said:


> But you are coming across as autocratic and only prepared to preach dogma without considering other options, new ideas, new trends.  And if someone does have a dissenting opinion then they are labelled (i recall seeing myself being labelled a troll somewhere which I ignored), which immediately stops the more timid soapers from airing their own experiences or views.


But what are the new ideas you are bringing to the “when to start selling”? Cause this are all discussion that have been done in the past and probably will keep ocurring.

The reason people are so against starting to sell when you are new to soap making is because you dont have all the info you’ll need to start a business. There are a buch of things you wont know until you do this for quite a long time.

And i fail to see how “thats what samples are for” has anything to do with bad soap?


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## shunt2011 (Feb 4, 2019)

Samples have nothing to do with having bad soap.  If it's bad it doesn't matter what it is, sample or full bar.  Some people just like to spout and  don't generally offer  one bit of constructive/helpful  information. Because they can't speak from experience on the subject.   Nothing to back it up.  Just trying to justify what they are doing or will be doing.    Telling new people to just do it is irresponsible and bad business advice.


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## lenarenee (Feb 4, 2019)

One reason many people here believe it's necessary to wait at least a year is because they've experienced some of the mysterious fickleness that happens with soap. The fragrance that didn't used to turn brown may decide to do so after a few weeks. Or cause dos.  Or perhaps the supplier of the oils started using cosmetic grade instead of food grade which can cause subtle changes that affect your recipe - such as funny odors or rancidity.  Maybe the colorant fades or morphs. (I've seen some crazy things happens with colorants).  I've also used fragrances that many other had great luck with and stayed strong and true for months, that completely failed after curing in my recipe.

Any business needs a trusted reputation.  Selling books is one thing - they don't change. Soap does and it can change at any moment. For your customers to trust your product, you need to predict it's performance as accurately as possible and that takes a lot of repetition, trial and error.  Honestly, I don't think even an year is enough unless it's a year spent with the same recipe.

Here's an example of one of my most surprising soap mysteries. I made a Satsuma soap with 3 layers of orange colors - dark, medium and light. After the first day - the colors reversed - the dark turned white, the medium turned very pale, but the lightest layer turned darkest!!  Then....the soap decided to gel - AFTER it had sat for 24 hrs.  The center of the soap changed back to the originals colors, and the outside soap stayed the same. So now layers didn't even match.  I shoved the soap to the back of the curing rack and left it. After 4 months or so - all of the colors had now "fixed" themselves to what they were supposed to be.


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## jcandleattic (Feb 4, 2019)

Alfa_Lazcares said:


> And i fail to see how “thats what samples are for” has anything to do with bad soap?


I couldn't quite figure that one out either. 

In fact I'm lost on the whole concept of selling with no experience, and not knowing 100% how your soaps will be 6, 9, and 12 months down the line... Especially with a product such as soap that only gets better with time.


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## Hendejm (Feb 4, 2019)

Understanding that this is a controversial subject to many, I believe without risk there can be no reward. To take the discussion to the extreme - soap can and does change after the first year or years. It can lose scent, develop DOS, go rancid.... long after the suggested time to begin selling. So it’s always a risk. I like what someone mentioned here ( can’t find who it was) that creating a “best practices” insert when selling soap is a fantastic idea. Setting realistic expectations and guidelines is a great thing and I will begin doing that immediately. 

There will ALWAYS be a risk when selling an artisanal, handmade, consumable product regardless of experience or skill level. Manage the risk - prepare for the enevitable - and decide if it’s right for you. Some will say they aren’t ready, some will decide they are ready. That’s kind of the beauty of making a handmade product - you are in control and you get to decide. That’s my opinion for how I will move forward and I am by no means suggesting that anyone follow my reasoning or beliefs.


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## MGM (Feb 4, 2019)

lenarenee said:


> Here's an example of one of my most surprising soap mysteries. I made a Satsuma soap with 3 layers of orange colors - dark, medium and light. After the first day - the colors reversed - the dark turned white, the medium turned very pale, but the lightest layer turned darkest!!  Then....the soap decided to gel - AFTER it had sat for 24 hrs.  The center of the soap changed back to the originals colors, and the outside soap stayed the same. So now layers didn't even match.  I shoved the soap to the back of the curing rack and left it. After 4 months or so - all of the colors had now "fixed" themselves to what they were supposed to be.



Dat's just spooooky.
Satsuma tho! Love love love!


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Feb 4, 2019)

Hendejm said:


> Understanding that this is a controversial subject to many, I believe without risk there can be no reward. To take the discussion to the extreme - soap can and does change after the first year or years. It can lose scent, develop DOS, go rancid.... long after the suggested time to begin selling. So it’s always a risk. I like what someone mentioned here ( can’t find who it was) that creating a “best practices” insert when selling soap is a fantastic idea. Setting realistic expectations and guidelines is a great thing and I will begin doing that immediately.
> 
> There will ALWAYS be a risk when selling an artisanal, handmade, consumable product regardless of experience or skill level. Manage the risk - prepare for the enevitable - and decide if it’s right for you. Some will say they aren’t ready, some will decide they are ready. That’s kind of the beauty of making a handmade product - you are in control and you get to decide. That’s my opinion for how I will move forward and I am by no means suggesting that anyone follow my reasoning or beliefs.



Yes, but the issue here is that, if you dont give yourself time to even know that this things could potentially happen, then you shouldnt be selling. A batch can fail no matter how many years you have been making them, but a new soaper might not even  know the soap is a fail (prople dont know what DOS is/looks like), and sell anyway. Thats where the experience comes from. I am not advocaiting you MUST wait exactly 365 days to sell, but to have at least experience making your soaps, knowing how fragrances/colors behave, how long is your soap gonna last in the shower and on the shelf, and those things you will only know with time.

Scents and colors can and will fade, yes, that is the nature of hand made soap, but you at least need to know how long your scents and colors will last.


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## IrishLass (Feb 4, 2019)

Donee' said:


> But you are coming across as autocratic and only prepared to preach dogma without considering other options, new ideas, new trends.  And if someone does have a dissenting opinion then they are labelled (i recall seeing myself being labelled a troll somewhere which I ignored), which immediately stops the more timid soapers from airing their own experiences or views.



Please consider that what may come across as 'autocratic' and 'dogmatic' to you (or to anyone else in this thread) is simply our collective years of soap-making experience speaking. Those of us that may have come off as sounding that way to you have been making soap for a very long time (for myself, it's coming up on 13 years now), and to us 'oldtimers', there is really not too much that is new under the sun, because each of us have accumulated years under our belt from having made all kinds of soap using all kinds of ingredients, not to mention having done all kinds of crazy and weird and creative experiments with our soap, testing it to its limits, which we still continue to do, because we are creative people and soap is our passion.

Truly, we are not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. Believe it or not, we _want_ you to be successful in your soapy endeavors! We 'oldtimers' have actually been where you are now and can each of us recount having had the very  same arguments that are being put forth here in this thread with the experienced oldtimers that came before _us_ when we ourselves were new to the craft and were taken captive by it, and felt the mighty pull of temptation to sell it before we were aware of _just how little we really knew about what we didn't know about the craft _to even think about selling so soon out of the gate had we taken the time to know. Time and experience, though, have shown us that the 'oldtimers' that _we_ once thought were overly autocratic and dogmatic when we were new, were actually right and knew a thing or two or three that we either hadn't considered, or for some of us in our haste,  didn't actually _want _to consider if we were honest with ourselves.

For as long as this forum has been in existence, this argument comes up on average about 4 times a year, I would guesstimate (always started by a newcomer both to the forum and to the craft....not singling anyone out, just stating a statistical fact). And it's not just on this forum, either, but also over at the Dish forum and all the others I've ever been a member of....and they always tend go south rather quickly because of how passionate we all are about the success of the promulgation of handmade soap. In order to head such potential for disaster off at the pass (because we want this to be a civil forum!), we created a sticky a few years ago in the in the Announcements/Rules section under the heading 'SMF Culture and Tone' to give those new to the forum a 'heads up' as to what are considered by the main body of our membership to be the hot-button issues common to our community, and to caution that that if one decides to post about such topics, you do so at your own risk and to expect some passionate fall-out from it. I don't know if you have read the sticky, but here is the link to it: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/smf-culture-and-tone.56833/


IrishLass


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 5, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> Please consider that what may come across as 'autocratic' and 'dogmatic' to you (or to anyone else in this thread) is simply our collective years of soap-making experience speaking. Those of us that may have come off as sounding that way to you have been making soap for a very long time (for myself, it's coming up on 13 years now), and to us 'oldtimers', there is really not too much that is new under the sun, because each of us have accumulated years under our belt from having made all kinds of soap using all kinds of ingredients, not to mention having done all kinds of crazy and weird and creative experiments with our soap, testing it to its limits, which we still continue to do, because we are creative people and soap is our passion.
> 
> Truly, we are not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. Believe it or not, we _want_ you to be successful in your soapy endeavors! We 'oldtimers' have actually been where you are now and can each of us recount having had the very  same arguments that are being put forth here in this thread with the experienced oldtimers that came before _us_ when we ourselves were new to the craft and were taken captive by it, and felt the mighty pull of temptation to sell it before we were aware of _just how little we really knew about what we didn't know about the craft _to even think about selling so soon out of the gate had we taken the time to know. Time and experience, though, have shown us that the 'oldtimers' that _we_ once thought were overly autocratic and dogmatic when we were new, were actually right and knew a thing or two or three that we either hadn't considered, or for some of us in our haste,  didn't actually _want _to consider if we were honest with ourselves.
> 
> ...


*Rushes off to look up promulgation in the dictionary*
Well written Irish - in a considered and informative tone. I think markets must be quite different over in the USA and UK & EU, and even Aussie to what they are here.  We don't need a licence, we don't need insurance, we don't have to register with any professional bodies, we don't have any obligation to anyone but ourselves and our own standards.  For selling as a proper business things might be a bit stricter, but to go to a weekend market - anything goes.  Someone might be making homemade chutney and selling it (admittedly they are required to get a food safety compliance certification to do so) - but for soap there are no 'requirements'. 
I would point out that I have bought commercially made soaps that have lost their fragrance and gone cracked and stinky ( probably lard). Pretty much every public toilet used to have these in them before they brought in liquid soap.  Nobody complained, or sued (we don't have a suing culture in NZ anyway). People don't expect products to last forever.  Like I stated further back, it's probably a good idea to put a 'use by' or at least 'best before' date on handmade soap, and of course explain to customers the difference between handmade and commercial soaps.
I certainly intend to sell, and am practicing my skills and honing my recipes to find what works best - I am testing, and have friends test my soaps.  I am taking on board feedback and making alterations ( one soap apparently 'fell apart' and I do know why that is now - obviously not when I made it because that was part of my learning).  Luckily for me my first two batches that I gave to family and friends were pretty gosh-darned good so I had no complaints there.  I've saved a couple of these to keep an eye on over the coming months. I have pretty much got my 'recipe' set now, with some minor tweaks here and there, and my main experimentation is with different swirl or pattern techniques and with differing FOs or EOs to see how they behave and/or if I like them. I intend to start selling soon.

EDIT to add:  BTW - my standards are high.  I want to have a good quality product that looks nice and performs well.  I've always been a perfectionist.


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## Dawni (Feb 5, 2019)

@IrishLass, I read that two times not because it didn't make sense to me after the first time but it was so well written I just had to.

And because of my double reading I started giggling about something entirely off topic haha

I've been using the terms "experienced" and "experts" and "professionals" when I refer to you guys (you know who you are harharhar) buuuuut...

Am I now allowed to call you guys "old-timers?"


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## MGM (Feb 5, 2019)

There do seem to be massively different requirements in different countries...I think Canada's right in the middle, but I also constantly worry about what I might be missing. I don't sell, but I have donated products (not just soap) to silent auctions at the kids' schools and stuff, so I follow GMP and have registered products with Health Canada as required for selling.
I do find it a little funny that there is such a bright line drawn with selling....DON'T sell soap that might be have too much lye or scratchy exfoliants, lose its color or scent, might crack, crumble or develop DOS because *the buying public *will get turned off handmade soaps.  But plenty of people are *giving* away soap to all and sundry, and don't seem to worry about injuring or offending friends and family


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## shunt2011 (Feb 5, 2019)

MGM said:


> There do seem to be massively different requirements in different countries...I think Canada's right in the middle, but I also constantly worry about what I might be missing. I don't sell, but I have donated products (not just soap) to silent auctions at the kids' schools and stuff, so I follow GMP and have registered products with Health Canada as required for selling.
> I do find it a little funny that there is such a bright line drawn with selling....DON'T sell soap that might be have too much lye or scratchy exfoliants, lose its color or scent, might crack, crumble or develop DOS because *the buying public *will get turned off handmade soaps.  But plenty of people are *giving* away soap to all and sundry, and don't seem to worry about injuring or offending friends and family



That's because friend and family know you are just starting out and testing your stuff.  They had no idea that eventually I would start selling.   And, I only donated to women's/homeless shelters and overseas to the military.  They aren't likely going to be the ones purchasing my soap to begin with. I didn't donate for auctions or other functions until I had a business and had my insurance etc in place.


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## MGM (Feb 5, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> That's because friend and family know you are just starting out and testing your stuff.  They had no idea that eventually I would start selling.   And, I only donated to women's/homeless shelters and overseas to the military.  They aren't likely going to be the ones purchasing my soap to begin with. I didn't donate for auctions or other functions until I had a business and had my insurance etc in place.


Sure. It just seems that the two main gripes, bad rep for HM soap and liability, are equally at play here. If your family and friends find they just don't like your soap 6 months down the line, will they attribute it to you not knowing what the heck you were doing, or to "oh well, I guess I just don't like this kind of soap. NBD." And if you're worried about liability, I'd argue that donating to vulnerable populations might actually be *worse* than donating to people who frequent silent auctions for bath products, the former being in much less of a position to treat any fallout from your products.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 5, 2019)

MGM said:


> Sure. It just seems that the two main gripes, bad rep for HM soap and liability, are equally at play here. If your family and friends find they just don't like your soap 6 months down the line, will they attribute it to you not knowing what the heck you were doing, or to "oh well, I guess I just don't like this kind of soap. NBD." And if you're worried about liability, I'd argue that donating to vulnerable populations might actually be *worse* than donating to people who frequent silent auctions for bath products, the former being in much less of a position to treat any fallout from your products.



It was perfectly good safe soap.   I had been making soap 8-9 months.   Just had too much.   I would never donate just made newbie soap.  It was still labeled and had my contact information.  I still followed the rules for donating.   And they could contact me if something happened.


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I think markets must be quite different over in the USA and UK & EU, and even Aussie to what they are here. We don't need a licence, we don't need insurance, we don't have to register with any professional bodies, we don't have any obligation to anyone but ourselves and our own standards. For selling as a proper business things might be a bit stricter, but to go to a weekend market - anything goes.


For here in the US, or at least in the state where I am, it really depends on who is running the market. Some are as you noted here above with little to no regulation, and some require much more or everything from a business perspective. 

For me, we live in such a litigious world these days - to the point where someone will sue you if they get soap in their eyes and it stung a little - to much more serious claims - it is just not worth not having insurance, nor the the proper due diligence to back up why you believe your product is safe - without just saying, "well, I studied and read everything I could so it must be safe" type thing. IF (and let's please hope and pray it never happens, but IF) I ever get sued, I want to have A.) the experience to know what I'm talking about, and B.) the proof to back that experience up...


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## earlene (Feb 5, 2019)

Well, not everyone wants to run a business.  Some of us may never sell for that reason, and some may never sell because they feel that it may take the joy out of the hobby.  I doubt I will, as I would rather just enjoy soap making as a hobby and not be tied down to filing the paperwork for a business.    (I've been there, done that, and am so happy to be retired.)

In some cases, the legal requirements for the business are so complex that some folks may not even want to deal with those.  Personally, I don't think I would ever attempt to deal with the complexities of soap sales in the E.U. or even in the state of Florida in the US, from what I have read regarding the business side of things.  But for some that's fine, and they have no qualms about dealing with the regulatory side of things.

But even as a hobbiest soap maker, I take pride in making quality soap and would never even give away soap I had not thoroughly evaluated for quality over time.   If my soap turned to DOS after I gave it to family or friends, I would be so embarrassed!

Making sure my soap formulas and methods and techniques produce the best quality soap I am able to produce is very important to me.  Sure, I've had some failures, but I sure would never give any of those away to anyone.  And the only way to ensure my soaps are good in the long run (2 years and more) is to keep them around that long and evaluate them periodically.  If they hold up well here in my home that's when I know they are good to give to friends and family and even strangers.


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## IrishLass (Feb 5, 2019)

jcandleattic said:


> For here in the US, or at least in the state where I am, it really depends on who is running the market. Some are as you noted here above with little to no regulation, and some require much more or everything from a business perspective.
> 
> For me, we live in such a litigious world these days - to the point where someone will sue you if they get soap in their eyes and it stung a little - to much more serious claims - it is just not worth not having insurance, nor the the proper due diligence to back up why you believe your product is safe - without just saying, "well, I studied and read everything I could so it must be safe" type thing. IF (and let's please hope and pray it never happens, but IF) I ever get sued, I want to have A.) the experience to know what I'm talking about, and B.) the proof to back that experience up...



Yep. There are a lot of sue-happy crazies out there (at least here in the US, for sure). I remember a gal over on another soaping forum who opened up a little brick & mortar soap shop recounting what could've turned into a very ugly situation had it not been for her preparedness with insurance, etc... One of the soaps she had stocked on the shelf for sale in her shop was a chocolate-scented soap. If I remember the story rightly, one day a guy and a gal came into her shop and were kinda loitering suspiciously around the chocolate soap when the gal just takes a bar of it right off the shelf and bites into it and dramatically claims she thought it was a brownie and broke her tooth on it, even though everything was clearly labeled as being soap, and she announces she is suing for injuries. Without batting an eye, the soaper goes into the back office and grabs insurance claim papers and brings them out for the gal to fill out. Well, I guess they weren't expecting that and they quickly made their exit out the shop without even so much as a glance at the papers, never to be seen or heard from again.

It's good to have all your bases covered.


IrishLass


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## lenarenee (Feb 5, 2019)

MGM said:


> There do seem to be massively different requirements in different countries...I think Canada's right in the middle, but I also constantly worry about what I might be missing. I don't sell, but I have donated products (not just soap) to silent auctions at the kids' schools and stuff, so I follow GMP and have registered products with Health Canada as required for selling.
> I do find it a little funny that there is such a bright line drawn with selling....DON'T sell soap that might be have too much lye or scratchy exfoliants, lose its color or scent, might crack, crumble or develop DOS because *the buying public *will get turned off handmade soaps.  But plenty of people are *giving* away soap to all and sundry, and don't seem to worry about injuring or offending friends and family



Hadn't thought of it that way and now I'm evaluating my own past behavior.







I've given away upwrapped and unlabeled soap; but always ask about allergies first. I've given old, fo faded soap (the kind you know is going to be deliciously mild and bubbly) but always upfront about it.  But never given away something I hadn't tested on myself first.

There is (at least in the US) an implied if not actual contract when a purchase is made that the product functions to predictable standards.  It implies a level of expertise and professionalism that free stuff doesn't.


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2019)

MGM said:


> I do find it a little funny that there is such a bright line drawn with selling....DON'T sell soap that might be have too much lye or scratchy exfoliants, lose its color or scent, might crack, crumble or develop DOS because *the buying public *will get turned off handmade soaps. But plenty of people are *giving* away soap to all and sundry, and don't seem to worry about injuring or offending friends and family


Not necessarily true in all cases. 
I never gave my soap out to anybody - friends/relatives/others - until I knew I had a product worthy of sale. I know it's different for others, but that was my experience. 
I never even used my first soap on myself until it had a full 6 week cure because I just didn't know what to expect, and back then there wasn't much information on the internet, and very few books on it. 
Now I know I can use it before that, however, I have so much, it's rare I will use a soap that is less than a year old.


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## MGM (Feb 5, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> It was perfectly good safe soap.   I had been making soap 8-9 months.   Just had too much.   I would never donate just made newbie soap.  It was still labeled and had my contact information.  I still followed the rules for donating.   And they could contact me if something happened.


Sure. I bet it was perfectly safe and actually quite lovely, given what I've seen here. It just seems there's a line on one side of which is "exchange of money". I'm just pointing out that "disbursement of product" really seems to be where the line should be drawn....Hendejm's Air BnB clients are an equally grey area. Speaking of which, I'm going to an Air BnB next week...mayhap I should *leave* some soap


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 5, 2019)

jcandleattic said:


> For here in the US, or at least in the state where I am, it really depends on who is running the market. Some are as you noted here above with little to no regulation, and some require much more or everything from a business perspective.
> 
> For me, we live in such a litigious world these days - to the point where someone will sue you if they get soap in their eyes and it stung a little - to much more serious claims - it is just not worth not having insurance, nor the the proper due diligence to back up why you believe your product is safe - without just saying, "well, I studied and read everything I could so it must be safe" type thing. IF (and let's please hope and pray it never happens, but IF) I ever get sued, I want to have A.) the experience to know what I'm talking about, and B.) the proof to back that experience up...


I remember when McDonalds first cam to New Zealand - I was 15 years old.  At some point within those first few years of being here, there was a claim made by a woman in the US who had burnt her mouth on a coffee at McD's.  It was in the news and we all laughed and laughed because McD's had to pay her compensation because SHE burnt her mouth.  Next thing you know - all our McD's coffee cups over here had the words: "Caution, contents may be hot" written all them.  Well we laughed and laughed again, no shirt Sherlock, of course it will be hot, IT'S COFFEE!  My mum is the first too complain if she order a coffee anywhere and it's too cold.


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## amd (Feb 5, 2019)

Actually, it wasn't her mouth that got burned. The coffee spilled in her lap and very seriously burned her "lap area", thighs and buttocks, to the extent that she had to get skin grafts, if I remember correctly.


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 5, 2019)

amd said:


> Actually, it wasn't her mouth that got burned. The coffee spilled in her lap and very seriously burned her "lap area", thighs and buttocks, to the extent that she had to get skin grafts, if I remember correctly.


Oh - poor lady.  That would be horrible. BUT, in NZ you can't sue the company for having an accident yourself, unless they were at fault by using a cup that was broken or something.


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> I remember when McDonalds first cam to New Zealand - I was 15 years old.  At some point within those first few years of being here, there was a claim made by a woman in the US who had burnt her mouth on a coffee at McD's.  It was in the news and we all laughed and laughed because McD's had to pay her compensation because SHE burnt her mouth.  Next thing you know - all our McD's coffee cups over here had the words: "Caution, contents may be hot" written all them.  Well we laughed and laughed again, no shirt Sherlock, of course it will be hot, IT'S COFFEE!  My mum is the first too complain if she order a coffee anywhere and it's too cold.



I know people think the McDonald's lawsuit was frivolous, but in reality it wasn't. It was originally a lawsuit to help an elderly woman on a fixed income pay her medical bills.

If it's what I believe you are talking aboutit's the infamous lawsuit by a 79 year old woman that got 3rd degree burns on her inner thighs by spilling coffee in her lap.
However, now that the details of that case have been made public, McDonald's was totally at fault, the woman was only suing for the remaining medical bills she couldn't make on her fixed income, but the jury decided to award her damages in the large amount because they felt McD's just did not care, and the jury wanted to make a point. It really had nothing to do with the woman who was suing the company.
The coffee was found to be 190° - a temperature known to cause 3rd degree burns. 

Here is a link you can read about it, and an excerpt taken from that from one of the jurors-

" In a story about the case published shortly after the verdict was delivered in 1994, one of the jurors said over the course of the trial he came to realize the case was about “callous disregard for the safety of the people.” Another juror said “the facts were so overwhelmingly against the company.” "

https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts



amd said:


> Actually, it wasn't her mouth that got burned. The coffee spilled in her lap and very seriously burned her "lap area", thighs and buttocks, to the extent that she had to get skin grafts, if I remember correctly.


We posted about the same thing. I posted a link to the article with a few facts from the case.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 5, 2019)

MGM said:


> Sure. I bet it was perfectly safe and actually quite lovely, given what I've seen here. It just seems there's a line on one side of which is "exchange of money". I'm just pointing out that "disbursement of product" really seems to be where the line should be drawn....Hendejm's Air BnB clients are an equally grey area. Speaking of which, I'm going to an Air BnB next week...mayhap I should *leave* some soap



The line is when you start a business and sell.  I had to register a business name, get a sales tax ID and got insurance.  Family won’t sue you.  I had a kid take a bite out of a cupcake soap.  Fortunately the parents thought it hysterical.  Signs clearly stated soap.  

All it really comes down to is knowing your product keeping good records and cover yourself with insurance.  Anything can happen.


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> Family won’t sue you


You've never met my family!! LOL Of course it's not over soap, it's over estate property rights, oil rights, and eminent domain, but still family absolutely will sue family.


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## Meena (Feb 5, 2019)

Just saw this 2009 post.  I think it was @IrishLass who said "*we've seen it all*", and surely this is part of it!

"hi! im krissy.* i have thought about making soap for years* but never worked up the nerve to try.* i decide to open my own soap business and tried out my first soap project yesterday.* i did HP because it seemed easier. anyways...i am a SAHM"


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## SaltedFig (Feb 5, 2019)

@jcandleattic - your first link isn't working

The video in your second link is comprehensive (thanks - it has interviews with the victim, both lawyers and a good bit of detail - don't look if your squeamish - she had burns to 16% of her body, and her daughter said 6% were 3rd degree burns - they showed photo's of her injuries )
(Youtube pCkL9UlmCOE)

@KiwiMoose, the fault was in the temperature of the coffee - your accident scheme (interesting, I didn't know about that before!) does have provision for exemplary damages (punishment money, basically), which was where most of the money in this hot coffee case came from ... apparently there were about 700 other burns incidents before this lady was burned, and she had only asked for her expenses to be paid ... it was the jury that chose to award punitive damages ( ... basically they gave her 2 days of Macca's coffee earnings, in lieu of 2 days wages!).


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> @jcandleattic - your first link isn't working


I meant to un-link that, I just copied and pasted from the actual second link. It's towards the bottom and in the article itself. I thought it just didn't work for me because they block so much stuff here at my office. 

I'll go edit it, so others don't get frustrated.


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 5, 2019)

jcandleattic said:


> I know people think the McDonald's lawsuit was frivolous, but in reality it wasn't. It was originally a lawsuit to help an elderly woman on a fixed income pay her medical bills.
> 
> If it's what I believe you are talking aboutit's the infamous lawsuit by a 79 year old woman that got 3rd degree burns on her inner thighs by spilling coffee in her lap.
> However, now that the details of that case have been made public, McDonald's was totally at fault, the woman was only suing for the remaining medical bills she couldn't make on her fixed income, but the jury decided to award her damages in the large amount because they felt McD's just did not care, and the jury wanted to make a point. It really had nothing to do with the woman who was suing the company.
> ...


And that’s the other difference between NZ and the US. There are no medical bills for such treatment here - it’s free.


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> And that’s the other difference between NZ and the US. There are no medical bills for such treatment here - it’s free.


Wouldn't that be nice here!! It's coming, just not soon enough, and there will be years to kinks to work through that'll make it difficult to maneuver.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 5, 2019)

jcandleattic said:


> You've never met my family!! LOL Of course it's not over soap, it's over estate property rights, oil rights, and eminent domain, but still family absolutely will sue family.



The may over something else but not soap.  They love my soap.  Ha ha.


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## Snowbell (Feb 5, 2019)

Not only should local laws be followed and insurance being a must have, there is also the trust factor. From the first time you sell your product you are building trust with that customer. So selling something subpar will be a huge dis service to you in the long run. And with today’s social media you might be the last to know. Look at anything commercially made it took them years to get their product to market.


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> The may over something else but not soap.  They love my soap.  Ha ha.


Mine too, but with petty families (in general not yours, LOL), and our sue happy society it wouldn't surprise me if family sued over soap. Honestly, it would not surprise me in the least.


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## Hendejm (Feb 5, 2019)

How did we get from selling soap and it’s inplications - all the way to a lawsuit with McDonalds where a  woman was severely burned?  I don’t see the correlation. 

To me - making soap is part art and part science. Art is a very personal expression of a person. If they choose to sell their products then I’m ok with that. 

For those that are connecting the dots between a newbie soaper and some idiot who takes a bite out of a bar of soap - shame on you! Yes it can happen - but that scenario can happen regardless of being a new soaper or a seasoned soaper with 20 yrs experience. 

We come to these forums to learn - and many of us have learned to get insurance, pay taxes, perfect a recipe, prepare for the unexpected, educate the consumer, etc. 

Some will heed the advice to wait and that’s great. Others will forge ahead and that’s great too. It’s like a parent watching a child leave home at 18 (or whenever) - you prepare them, you educate them, you nurture them - but ultimately - they need to learn to be an adult by experience. That young adult will have failures and heart break - they don’t do “life” right 100%of the time (probably not even 50% of the time). But the point is - ultimately they have to learn BY DOING! How many parents have said to themselves “I didn’t raise my child to be like that”?  Regardless of what we teach our children or want for them - they have to learn those lessons for themselves with EXPERIENCE. You can’t get experience on a forum or by asking questions. You get experience by DOING and making mistakes - learning from those mistakes and doing it better the next time. 

Soaping isn’t any different really - to me. Give everyone that is new a break!  Guide them, nurture them, encourage them, course correct them when necessary, be there when they make a mistake and offer help for a better outcome next time. But please don’t discourage them, plant your fears in their heads....pass on your jaded outlook of the future of soaping to them. Please let them fly or allow them to fail - but please allow them to do what’s right for them.


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## SaltedFig (Feb 5, 2019)

Hendejm said:


> How did we get from selling soap and it’s inplications - all the way to a lawsuit with McDonalds where a  woman was severely burned?  I don’t see the correlation.
> 
> To me - making soap is part art and part science. Art is a very personal expression of a person. If they choose to sell their products then I’m ok with that.
> 
> ...



Probably the same way we got talking about business in the beginners section ... by heading off topic 
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/beginner-not-business-related-posts-please.51802/


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## Hendejm (Feb 5, 2019)

And to add - when Henry Ford built the Model A automobile - it was a death trap. It hadn’t  been done before - he took huge risks. The Writeville Brothers - with the first flying machine - HUGE personal and professional risk. Both were introduced long before they should have been. But without those 2 things - our world would be VASTLY different today.   

I’m confident in saying that most everyone living at the time of the first car and plane - said that it was crazy - it couldn’t be done - don’t even try it - you will fail - you’ll lose everything. But they ignored those naysayers and I believe the world is better for it.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 5, 2019)

Because it’s all part of having a business. We do guide them. We won’t tell them to just jump in and sell. It happens all the time I see it at shows. It’s a reality but they need to know the reality.  You all are free to do as you please and as your doing. Good luck. Putting the horse before the cart isn’t the way to do it.  You happen to have a business. Most don’t and have no idea what they are doing. You may or may not be an exception.  Time will tell. Most folks aren’t around after a year or two. No skin off my nose.


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## Jill B Blasius (Feb 5, 2019)

@Donee'  We are not try to discourage your plans to sell soap, but there are even simple things that first need to be learned. At the very least, you should be PH testing your cured soap, even before using it on yourself or gifting it. If you have no idea what "testing PH" is, (and I'm not talking about a tongue zap test) you shouldn't be selling soap yet.

In the US, making "soap" is largely unregulated BUT if you are going to sell your soap or if you state that your soap is something other than soap - if it moisturizes  - it's a cosmetic - our government has a specific set of rules to follow (which most casual soapers do as far as recording purchase and use by dates of each ingredient, batch records, etc...). Or if it treats a skin condition, such as acne or eczema - it's considered a drug - and it has even more rules to follow as well as product testing by the government. These rules are so extensive, all the way down to the size of your label on your product and the minimum font size used on your ingredients. It's not that our government micro-manages small businesses, it's more about public safety.

You really should examine what your country requires of you as a business before you start selling your "medicinal" soap down at the pharmacy. In the meantime, before you can comply with the rules and start your business officially (registering your name, getting liability insurance, etc...) you'll have plenty of time to practice making soap.

Here's something you may want to read: https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/fo...ics-regulations/?highlight=visit from the fda


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## shunt2011 (Feb 5, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> Because it’s all part of having a business. We do guide them. We won’t tell them to just jump in and sell. It happens all the time I see it at shows. It’s a reality but they need to know the reality.  You all are free to do as you please and as your doing. Good luck. Putting the horse before the cart isn’t the way to do it.  You happen to have a business. Most don’t and have no idea what they are doing. You may or may not be an exception.  Time will tell. Most folks aren’t around after a year or two. No skin off my nose.



It’s irresponsible to tell someone it’s okay to sell after a few batches or even a dozen.


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## LilyJo (Feb 5, 2019)

Hendejm said:


> How did we get from selling soap and it’s inplications - all the way to a lawsuit with McDonalds where a  woman was severely burned?  I don’t see the correlation.
> 
> To me - making soap is part art and part science. Art is a very personal expression of a person. If they choose to sell their products then I’m ok with that.
> 
> ...



I dont necessarily disagree with what you said in general but there is a big difference in letting people make their own mistakes and posting that (and I am paraphrasing) you dont need to wait just get on and sell soap. As has been said, plenty of newbies read this forum and I would hate anyone to assume that you can just start selling any soap CP or M&P on day one.  All any of us have been saying is that there is more to making soap than making soap and that legal requirements vary across the many countries that read this forum.

And whilst I think about it, the jump from newbie soapers and people taking a bite out of soap isnt such a huge leap.  Did you know that you cannot sell soap or candles etc that look and smell like food in the uk?  How many newbie soapers are aware of the Food Imitation regs?  If you watch You Tube everyone makes cupcake soaps but technically they are illegal in the uk and Trading Standards can - and do - force you stop selling them and can prosecute.  So in reality no, its not really a huge leap at all!


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2019)

@Hendejm 
Nobody is telling anybody when they can or cannot sell. Experienced soapers who have successful businesses are telling people new to the craft why it might not be such a great idea to go headlong into selling without having the experience of knowing what their product will do long-term, that could, in this every litigious society could get them sued. IF they have all their ducks in a row, and have everything in place, and in a worst case scenario they do get sued, with the experience that comes with time they will know what to do and how to defend themselves. 

That is what this whole 4 page post has been about all along. 

We got to the McDonald's lawsuit because it was equated that suing for soap as being as frivolous as suing over hot coffee, etc.,


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## LilyJo (Feb 5, 2019)

Oh, just to add - if you dont follow local laws and regulations it can (and oftem does) invalidate any insurance policy you may have.  Leaving the soapmaker potentially personally liable for any injuries.


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## SaltedFig (Feb 5, 2019)

The correlation is very direct. A careless action by a soapmaker can lead to a burn. Ignoring the risks is what got maccas into hot water.

Someone who has been making soap for 3 weeks may not to have enough experience to spot danger, let alone have the skills to make a medicinal soap.

Suggesting that a new soapmaker, treading the well-worn path of other soapmakers, is somehow like the wright bros or henry ford is somewhat far-fetched imho


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## MGM (Feb 5, 2019)

amd said:


> Actually, it wasn't her mouth that got burned. The coffee spilled in her lap and very seriously burned her "lap area", thighs and buttocks, to the extent that she had to get skin grafts, if I remember correctly.


You're 100% right. I believe the legal document had the words "fused labia" in it....

Edited to add: Oh my, I should have read further. I see this has been discussed *at length*. Much more so than I would have thought on SMF.....


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## Hendejm (Feb 5, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> It’s irresponsible to tell someone it’s okay to sell after a few batches or even a dozen.





SaltedFig said:


> Suggesting that a new soapmaker, treading the well-worn path of other soapmakers, is somehow like the wright bros or henry ford is somewhat far-fetched imho



I agree that it’s a far-fetched apples/apples comparison. But the bigger picture in both examples, to me, is the idea that we/they are taking risks. To my mind - Risk is nessesary to move innovation and ideas forward.


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## MGM (Feb 5, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> And that’s the other difference between NZ and the US. There are no medical bills for such treatment here - it’s free.


Same as Canada except....her car trips to and from treatment wouldn't be covered. Nor physiotherapy. Nor perhaps special garments, etc. etc .Pain and suffering and loss of enjoyment of life.
I've often thought that 70% of  plot devices in American movies would not longer be valid if they had proper health care ("Man does bad thing to pay medical bills," "Women stays at terrible job to keep health insurance", "Couple has fake marriage in order to get health care," "Community rallies to pay for kid's cancer treatment" "Community gets scammed by person pretending to need to pay for cancer treatment"). It's just a common subtext, it's everywhere!


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## MadTeddyBear (Feb 5, 2019)

Being told you shouldn't do something is not really a big obstacle to overcome.  If someone's visiting this forum, they already can find all of the information they need to start selling soap without anyone's approval.  Information on how to refine a recipe, identify problems, how to protect your budding business, etc.  

Anyone who is ignoring that advice and doing all of that research on their own has probably done their due diligence, understands the risks, and can decide for themselves when it's appropriate to start selling.  If someone's asking "what are these ugly spots?" and "how much should I charge?"  they probably need to take a step back take the advice to wait a year.

I've run into this with computers.  Someone will ask me to install a program or component that's risky and I always refuse.  If I do it for you, then you don't know the risks and how to manage them.  If you do it yourself, then you've had to learn all of it already and don't need my help.


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## Marilyn Norgart (Feb 5, 2019)

"Anyone who is ignoring that advice and doing all of that research on their own has probably done their due diligence, understands the risks, and can decide for themselves when it's appropriate to start selling. If someone's asking "what are these ugly spots?" and "how much should I charge?" they probably need to take a step back take the advice to wait a year."

I agree that if someone is at the point where they are asking "what are these ugly spots" they probably aren't ready but "how much should I charge" is a pretty valid question dontcha think?  it might be something that should be asked locally though.  there is a lot to learn on the business end of it and if someone cant come on here and ask questions around that--well that is wrong.  I agree that making a few batches of soap doesn't mean you are ready to go out and sell it. but everybody learns differently and at a different rate.  and maybe just maybe if people figure out just what it takes to sell they might change their mind on how soon they should try or if they really want to. and I doubt if some one is hell bent on selling sooner than they should nothing anybody says is going to change their mind.


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 5, 2019)

So the advice to newbies is to 'know your soap' and 'know your stuff' before selling.  I think there is an element of trust in the knowledge of the soaper that wants to sell.  Assumptions are made on both sides.  I like @Hendejm's suggestion that we are "part art and part science" and I think you'll find that there are quite a few variables on that continuum.  The 'artist' in us is probably the more risky idealist, and the scientist is the more conservative rationalist ( generalisations abound!).  

You'll know yourself where you sit on the continuum - those more anal and risk averse might wait a year or two to sell, if at all (that's if they even want to sell).  The scientists will have loads of fun testing different recipes and oils and seeing how they react in different situations, and under different conditions.  The artist probably doesn't give a toss about any of that and just wants to make pretty patterns with pretty colours, and (bonus!) use some soap after the fun is done.  Some people might feel driven to sell because they see an avenue to make money, rather than just a hobby.  Some people might have years of business experience, others none. SO many variables.  No 'one' right way to do things.  

The main reason I want to start selling soon is because I have found myself out of a full time job due to a restructure at work.  I have managed to secure a 0.5 post, but have the rest of my time free.  I already go to craft fairs and sell my other pieces, and it seems a natural extension of that to also sell soap, now that I'm really starting to get into it.  I would at least like to recover my costs, because it's very expensive as a hobby, as you all know.  I consider myself a reasonably savvy person (current peri-menopausal brain excluded) having worked across many sectors from retail to wholesale sales, teaching and education, interior design, linguistics, and more recently assessment and graduation manager for an entire university.  My family ( grandparents, parents and three sisters) have owned and operated their own businesses for as long as I can remember. I'm taking all my knowledge, which also includes a good balance between 'scientific soap maker' and 'artistic soapmaker' and I'm making a measured decision to 'take the risk' as @Hendejm puts it.  I'm no dummy.  And I have personal standards that I want to uphold too - I don't want to sell anything inferior either in looks or performance.

Now, if someone else joins up and says they want to sell with no business experience, with no soaping practice, with not an ounce of 'scientist' in their brain at all, with no ability to research and know their products, but rather just a load of enthusiasm then of course - give them a strong dose of reality check!  And of course - there are many that have just joined up who have been soaping for years.  There're also some that have been soaping for a year and only made 6 batches, and even though their soap may be useable, they may have no idea how they achieved the properties that they did.  SO many variables.


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## MadTeddyBear (Feb 5, 2019)

Both questions are perfectly valid, but asking them at the same time is a problem.


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## Jill B Blasius (Feb 5, 2019)

@Donee'   You've got some reading to do! After surfing thru *your gov.za* sites for standards/regulations for soap, (as in a cosmetic, which soapers in the US follow; specifically batch numbering, labelling standards, INCI ingredient names, packaging and GMP [good manufacturing practices]) I found your regulatory documentation: (349 pages): 

http://us-cdn.creamermedia.co.za/assets/articles/attachments/72502_41351_rg10790_gon1469s.pdf

In short :
Cosmetics are the subject of the Foodstuffs, Cosmetics and Disinfectants Act, Act 54 of 1972. The industry in South Africa currently self-regulates using the CTFA (Cosmetic, Toiletries and Fragrances Association) guidance documentation,* which is based upon the EU Cosmetic Directive*.​
And folks, I also found they are just now educating the S AF public school children (and their families) on good handwashing and good hygiene practices  in relation to the spread of disease (170 yrs late?).


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## Hendejm (Feb 5, 2019)

KiwiMoose said:


> So the advice to newbies is to 'know your soap' and 'know your stuff' before selling.  I think there is an element of trust in the knowledge of the soaper that wants to sell.  Assumptions are made on both sides.  I like @Hendejm's suggestion that we are "part art and part science" and I think you'll find that there are quite a few variables on that continuum.  The 'artist' in us is probably the more risky idealist, and the scientist is the more conservative rationalist ( generalisations abound!).
> 
> You'll know yourself where you sit on the continuum - those more anal and risk averse might wait a year or two to sell, if at all (that's if they even want to sell).  The scientists will have loads of fun testing different recipes and oils and seeing how they react in different situations, and under different conditions.  The artist probably doesn't give a toss about any of that and just wants to make pretty patterns with pretty colours, and (bonus!) use some soap after the fun is done.  Some people might feel driven to sell because they see an avenue to make money, rather than just a hobby.  Some people might have years of business experience, others none. SO many variables.  No 'one' right way to do things.
> 
> ...


150+% AGREE


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## CaraBou (Feb 6, 2019)

Glad to see such robust discussion.  Like so many things in life, it is not one size fits all, especially considering that the original post was about M&P.


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## SaltedFig (Feb 6, 2019)

Donee' said:


> ...
> Use the cash you make to buy the oils and then start with CP.
> 
> Saying that people should wait a year is making people spend cash they may not have and its a very very long time until you can see pennies in your pocket for your hard work.
> ...





CaraBou said:


> Glad to see such robust discussion.  Like so many things in life, it is not one size fits all, especially considering that the original post was about M&P.



I thought the M&P part of this post was to use that to raise money to buy oils to make cold process soap and start selling immediately?

It's is this advice to beginner's, in the beginner's forum, that really bothers me
(So I'm not talking about people who have skilled up and are eagerly looking towards the next logical step - they're keen, but a different category IMHO).


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## Hendejm (Feb 6, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> It's is this advice to beginner's, in the beginner's forum, that really bothers me
> (So I'm not talking about people who have skilled up and are eagerly looking towards the next logical step - they're keen, but a different category IMHO).


Well said....I apologize for not connecting those dots. My rants were better suited in a different forum.


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## Donee' (Feb 7, 2019)

interesting discussion
The one thing I did pick up was that it was implied that South African government is only now teaching its kids to wash their hands.
Well I am sorry that the parents of the writer of that comment did not teach her/him about cleanliness but ours did.
I am 55 and I clearly recall doing the handwashing thing at nursery school.
But then again - we are South African you know....... third world and all that.......... .  We just run around the streets in animal skins and play with the lions.
Thanks for the link to our own governments regulations - but I have had such for a very long time.


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## SaltedFig (Feb 7, 2019)

Oh my goodness - I've just had a look at your legislation @Donee'
If you can get someone with a bit of legal skill to assist with the interpretation, it might be worth doing!

But, from the limited amount of looking that I've done, it looks like your acts are not consolidated.
(A "consolidated act" is where the laws are updated as they are changed - all of the changes are consolidated, or put together into, the original law.)
From what I can tell, your acts (laws) and every amendment are still all separate.

Ok ... where I'm up to. When you look at an act, there will be a bunch of "related links" underneath - if they start with "Amendment", those are part of the law too (and you will need to look at them, if you want to check whether they apply to you and your business).

Soap manufacturing is covered by this Act:
https://www.gov.za/documents/foodstuffs-cosmetics-and-disinfectants-act-2-jun-1972-0000

The link that Jill found is a proposed amendment (as far as I can tell - I could not find a matching amendment to your laws - do check yourself please). If this does pass into law, it will tighten up manufacturing of soap past what I have to comply with and bring your laws closer to the European model.
http://us-cdn.creamermedia.co.za/assets/articles/attachments/72502_41351_rg10790_gon1469s.pdf

Medicine manufacturing is covered by this Act:
https://www.gov.za/documents/drugs-control-act-7-jul-1965-0000

Something I've noticed about your governments law website - searches are sensitive to plurals ... so if you search for "Foodstuff", instead of "Foodstuffs" (as a for-instance), you will not find the law that relates to soapmaking.


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## LilyJo (Feb 7, 2019)

To be honest, I can see a time when there is a global harmonisation for cosmetics (in the same way as there is for other products) provided the US can get the legislation passed.  I think from memory that the FDA proposed some tightening up of the regs at some point but it was squashed by one of the parties as it was felt it would stifle small businesses.

But if US businesses want to compete with the trading areas such as the EU and SA etc they will need to comply anyway. Personally I think it would be a good thing and provide a level playing field but I also recognise it woulld change B&B pdouct making/selling considerably.


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