# What’s the madder with my madder?



## Mobjack Bay (Jun 8, 2019)

I made an infusion of 2 Tbs of Madder root powder in 1.5 cups of olive oil.  It was in a hot water bath for 2 hours.  The powder in the oil suspension looks deep merlot red,  but when the powder settles out, the oil itself is more of a gold color (with some contribution of the slightly green olive oil).

Based on this link, I was expecting the oil to turn red.  Or did he use the powder-oil mixture in his recipe?  If so, does anyone know if madder root powder in an oil infusion is scratchy in the soap?  I was going to use it to get a med-light pink in my first run of Genny’s shampoo (facial) soap, but I don’t want scratchy facial soap.

Has anyone added the madder powder to the lye as suggested by Jo at Modern Soapmaking here?  And, if so, did you get pink or red soap?  Was it scratchy feeling?


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## Dawni (Jun 8, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> The powder in the oil suspension looks deep merlot red,  but when the powder settles out, the oil itself is more of a gold color (with some contribution of the slightly green olive oil).


Mine's the same. Been leaving it alone in case it needs more time but I'm wondering if it needs more madder root. I'm very curious about what your results will be..


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 8, 2019)

Partial post deleted by me.  See the next post!


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 8, 2019)

Dang, I just wrote a post that vanished due to clumsy fingers 

Found this at Mad Micas: Madder powder is scratchy and produces speckles when added to soap at trace, but infusing in oil for a few day eliminates scratchiness and speckles (website).

Dyers use madder and the Dharma Trading website offers a number of prep tips that seem transferable:

“Pro-tip(s): Most natural dyestuffs like to be soaked overnight for some of the darkest shades. We prepped our dyestuffs in a blender with water and let them soak overnight. We used 50% weight of goods for the ground madder and 20% weight of goods for the cochineal. We also strained the dyestuffs and made “tea bags” with some scrap muslin so there wouldn’t be loose floating plant matter when we added our yarns. Check out these great videos from Kimberly Baxter Packwood for more tips and tricks to get the most color out of your dyestuffs:
Prepping madder root”

Edited to add that in the video the instructions are to heat the madder in water, very slowly to “coax out the red colors” otherwise you will get oranges, yellows and brown.  She said to bring it to a simmer over 1-2 hours.

“Pro-tip: Keep the madder below 200 degrees, around 180 is best. Any hotter and the red dye compounds will break down and your color will shift towards yellow and orange.”

“Something fun to try:

Madder will shift color as you change the pH of the water. Try dyeing up some samples in mason jars and vary the pH of the water with a little citric acid or soda ash. A lower acid pH (citric acid) will shift the color more orange, and higher more alkali pH (soda ash) will shift the color to bluer/darker hues.”

Has anyone achieved a blue soap this way?


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 8, 2019)

Time to coax the reds out!  Madder root powder in distilled water in a water bath on my stove:


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## earlene (Jun 8, 2019)

Like forcing color changes in hydrangeas.  Change the pH of the soil and it goes to either pick or blue.  Cool stuff, chemistry!


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 8, 2019)

@earlene My madder from BB is INCI Rubia tinctorum. The scientific name for Manjistha or Indian madder is Rubia cordifolia.  So, they’re closely related, but different species.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 8, 2019)

The madder has been simmering in distilled water on my stove for two hours now.  I was shooting for 180F at this point, but it’s only at 130F.  I’m doing laundry and cleaning house so figured it would be better to go up slowly in case I forget to check.  The red is getting more intense


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 8, 2019)

Caught this new information just in time!  My water bath just reached 155 F and apparently the red changes to brown at 160F in the madder I’m using (Rubia tinctorum), where the primary red pigment is alizarin.  In Manjistha or Indian Madder, the primary red pigment is Munjistin, which is less heat sensitive according to this site.  It’s interesting that the critical heat degradation temp for both madder pigments and chlorophyll is right in the range  at which soap goes into gel phase.  There’s more information on the various pigments in both of the madders at the Maiwa link.  They sell buy both kinds and also sell a “madder-rich extract.”


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 9, 2019)

Anne Watson’s website has photos of soaps she made using madder different ways. The soap made with infused oil turned out grey and the one made with madder powder mixed with a little oil and added at trace was pink with speckles.  
Then she tried it one more way and produced a peachy pink bar of soap using “madder tea,” which she added at trace as a replacement for some of her water. Based on her results, I’m more confident that I have a chance of success with the dye I made.

She also provides information on using alkanet and other natural colorants like turmeric and annatto.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 9, 2019)

edited to delete duplicate info from previous post... 

Here are color samples of my dye and the oil infusions I made yesterday, and the powders left over for the madder dye and oil infusion:


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## JuliaNegusuk (Jun 9, 2019)

I've used madder root added at trace and as a tea with the lye.  Added at trace it produces a white soap with pink speckles.  The soap turns pinker over time and by the end of cure you should have a light pink soap with dark pink speckles.  Very pretty but yes a little scratchy which I can live with but I know some can't bear. 

Best way I think is to add to the lye.  At first I added the ground root to the ready made lye, still hot and seived the root out using a jelly bag.  Fiddly and I didn't like messing about with lye in this way.  Now I make strong tea with boiling water, sieve the root out when cool, you lose some water so I add a little water at this point to bring it back up to quantity to mix with the lye or you could add a bit extra to start with.  Then make the lye with the madder root tea as if it was water.  Make the soap normally.  It will start off an impressive and slightly scary raspberry pink at pouring stage but mellows to a medium pink as it cures.  It does provide a good, long lasting pink colour without waiting weeks for steeping in oil.  I have used similar methods with calendula petals for a good yellow (just added to the hot lye and left in, though you could probably sieve out if you wanted) and paprika for an apricoty orange colour, though I have only tried leaving the parika in which did leave speckles and very slight scratchyness.  I would certainly recommend this method as a quick way to get long lasting, good pink colour.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 9, 2019)

I just made a lard rich soap with the madder dye I made yesterday.  I used dye water that was passed through a coffeee filter into a small pitcher, which means I had few if any particles of the powder in the dye water.  It looked red, but on the weaker side.  I used 2/3 of my water weight for the lye water and the remainder, as dye water, was added to the batter before full emulsion.  It was not much dye water (only about an ounce) because The batch was small and I use 37% lye concentration when I make soap for individual molds.  I think the soap is going to end up pale pink at best.

@JuliaNegusuk Thanks for sharing your methods!

The Dharma Trading website I linked above states that madder dye is pH sensitive.  That’s why I didn’t just mix it in the lye water.  Has your madder tea water ever turned blue when mixed with the lye? Based on your good experiences, I will try it in the lye water the next time.  According to what I read at the DT and Maiwa sites, the dye temp should stay at 160 F or below for the kind of madder I’m using.  I guess I could super chill the dye water and set the container in an ice bath when I add the lye.  Do you know what kind (species) of madder you use?  Apparently, Indian madder (Manjistha) can withstand higher temps. And, one more question!  How do you sieve your tea?


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## JuliaNegusuk (Jun 9, 2019)

If it helps further I use 172 grams of boiling water to 6 grams of ground madder root (I grind it up in an electric coffee grinder) and use a jelly bag to sieve out the madder root from the cold tea before adding the lye.   At this point I reweigh and add a little more water as I lose some in the sieving out process.  I always give the jelly bag a good squeeze to get as much colour and liquid out as possible - easier to do before you add the lye rather than after!  The calendula petals just 2 grams (or a big pinch) added straight to the hot lye.  I can't remember the quantities for paprika but it wouldn't have been a huge amount.  This is based on an oil weight of 600 grams and a water/lye ratio of 2:1.


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## earlene (Jun 9, 2019)

I only have the powder, but should have no trouble making that into a tea to add to the lye solution.  Thank you for your information, *Julia*!


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## JuliaNegusuk (Jun 9, 2019)

No it's never turned blue.  I'm afraid I don't know the type of madder root.  I buy from an English company called Summer Naturals and they don't specify.  It comes in little bits of red root which I grind to powder in the coffee grinder.  Interestingly the seller says you should steep in oil for weeks to colour soap.  But I have made soap using the madder tea method about a dozen times so far and it has never failed me.  Good luck.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 9, 2019)

Little cubes of leftover batter from the soaps I made today.  Left to right:

Madder dye added to batter, MMS Osmanthus FO - its very pale pink and the scent also seems subtle at this point
Indigo dispersed in oil added to batter, MMS Jacob FO - should be bluish, but not quite there, nice, but subtle scent 
Matcha-infused olive oil, used instead of olive oil in the recipe, MMS Green Tea FO - love the color and it smells great!


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 9, 2019)

JuliaNegusuk said:


> If it helps further I use 172 grams of boiling water to 6 grams of ground madder root (I grind it up in an electric coffee grinder) and use a jelly bag to sieve out the madder root from the cold tea before adding the lye.   At this point I reweigh and add a little more water as I lose some in the sieving out process.  I always give the jelly bag a good squeeze to get as much colour and liquid out as possible - easier to do before you add the lye rather than after!  The calendula petals just 2 grams (or a big pinch) added straight to the hot lye.  I can't remember the quantities for paprika but it wouldn't have been a huge amount.  This is based on an oil weight of 600 grams and a water/lye ratio of 2:1.



Thanks so much for this.  Do you think its possible that any very fine particles in the tea make it through the jelly bag?  Is that what you mean by “colour” as opposed to liquid? Anne Watson filtered her madder tea through fabric, which I’m guessing is more like your jelly bag.


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## earlene (Jun 9, 2019)

Jelly bags are a very fine mesh fabric.   I don't know about where Julie lives, but the ones I use look like this: 




I don't normally have many particles getting through the mesh, unless they are super tiny and I force them through with a spatula or by squeezing.


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## JuliaNegusuk (Jun 9, 2019)

The jelly bag is pretty fine.  I guess you could use muslin or something similar instead.  It is possible that a bit of fine powder gets through the bag, but unlikely in any quantity I would have thought.  If you are suggesting that the colour is fine powder in suspension in the water rather than actual coloured water, then no.  I think the colour has definately stained the water if that's the right word.  It has also stained the jelly bag which is now permanently dark pink, and even slightly stained my white rubber spatula that I stirred the mixture with.  It hasn't stained my silicon moulds but they are red and brown so it wouldn't show.  When you make the tea it should be a fairly strong red. It goes raspberry pink when you mix the red lye with oils and slowly mellows to a medium pink as it cures.  It isn't bright pink, it is very slightly dusky pink, but nevertheless definately PINK. I'm afraid I don't seem to have a photo.  It is also pretty consistently the same colour every time I make it.  I know some people find natural colourants unreliable but I haven't found it so for my chosen colourants.  I do get ash though, which is my personal bugbear.  But so far not badly on my pink soap.  I do find that my yellow and green soaps (calendula and green tea wax) are worst for ash.  But I wouldn't have thought the colourant would affect it. But who knows.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 9, 2019)

Thanks Julie.  I guess I can’t figure out why really red looking water from powder that simmers for two hours can’t produce as much color as tea made with boiling water.  I used 2 TBS in 12 oz of water.  I’m not sure how that compares with your starting point, but it would make strong tea if I was using real tea.


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## JuliaNegusuk (Jun 9, 2019)

For extra info - jelly bags are used in jam making.  You'll probably find them at a homewares store that sells jam thermometers and jars and the like.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 9, 2019)

I found this one online and it looks like it is a very fine mesh when you blow the image up really big.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 9, 2019)

Another thing is that the madder dye I made isn’t staining my fingers.  That’s kind of weird given how red it is and, plus, I can’t really think of any red liquid that doesn’t stain.  I will try doing it the way you do it to see if I get the same result.  Thanks for all of your help!!!


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## JuliaNegusuk (Jun 10, 2019)

I checked the package for my madder root and the latin name is rubia tinctorum.  I don't know if that helps you identify the type of madder (or is it all called rubia tinctorum).

Also, I have to confess that at using 6g a time for about a dozen times I am still working through my first ever batch of madder root.  So it is pefectly possible that I just happen to have a really good strong batch.  I hope not as I'll need a new batch at some point!

Good luck with your efforts, I do hope you find this method effective like I have done.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 10, 2019)

In the interest of science  I just added 100 g of boiling water to 4 g of madder root powder and let it sit for about 10 minutes. That ratio is close to what you used and not too far from what I used in my simmered dye “tea.”  The color intensity of the two batches is about the same, but the color is a little different.  The original batch I made by simmering the powder in a water bath looks more burgundy while the color of the batch made using boiling water is a warmer red.  That color difference is consistent with what the dyeing sites say about the heat sensitivity of the alizarin pigment.  I guess my next step will be to make some small batches subbing both for the water and seeing what happens when the lye monster gets a hold of it.  If that doesn’t work, I will dye fabric!


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 10, 2019)

The madder tea made with boiling water is on the left and the simmered madder (dye), which was held below 160 F and seems more burgundy in color, is on the right for comparison.  In this pic it looks like color intensity is lower in the dye water (less concentrated?). Maybe that’s contributing to my issues.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 10, 2019)

Here’s what happened to the two madder recipes when I add lye!  Woo hoo!  What color red do you want?  The dyeing resources stated that high pH would shift the madder dye color towards blue. Both of the batches, Julie’s “tea” recipe on the right, and my madder “dye” recipe on the left changed color.  The “tea” shifted to what I would call a purer red, while the “dye” shifted to burgundy. The colors before adding the lye don’t look all that different tonight (top row).  Making Julie’s madder tea is a lot easier than making the dye .   I can’t wait to compare the colors in soap.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 11, 2019)

There is an interesting post here about using madder in soap and pH sensitivity.  She noted that her madder colored soap faded after 9 months.  She also uses rhubarb and Rumex (Dock) to achieve pink.  For the rhubarb soap she used it in both the lye water and as an oil infusion.  It sounds like the water infusion started out yellow and then changed to pink when the lye was added.  For the Rumex soap she found that fresh infused oils (3 weeks) worked better than older infusions. The most interesting part to me is that she didn’t see much color in the oil infusion, which she describes as light yellow. My madder infusion in OO does not seem very colored from the madder.  But, maybe I just need to wait a few weeks.


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## szaza (Jun 11, 2019)

This is such an interesting thread! Great experimentation @Mobjack Bay! I haven't been able to get my hands on madder root yet, so can't really help with thought or insights.. I'm just following from the sidelines and impatiently waiting to see pictures of how the soaps turn out! [emoji6]


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## earlene (Jun 11, 2019)

JuliaNegusuk said:


> I checked the package for my madder root and the latin name is rubia tinctorum.  I don't know if that helps you identify the type of madder (or is it all called rubia tinctorum).


Rubia is the genus, but within the madder genus there are 80, 82 or 160 species, including:

_Rubia tinctorum_ (common madder), _
Rubia peregrina_ (wild madder), and _
Rubia cordifolia_ (Indian madder)  aka manjistha
_Rubia argyi_

I use manjistha (Rubia cordifolia) aka Indian madder, which gives me mahogany colored soap.  I also at one time bought a jar of madder root, but that jar also says Rubia cordifolia, so I guess I have never used the Rubia tinctorum.  I will have to give it a try when I have some.  

Wikipedia says 80, Missouri Botanical Garden wedsite says 160, but that only 82 have approved species names (link).


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 11, 2019)

A little more research today revealed that the pigment alizarin is used as a pH indicator.  It shifts to bluer at high pH and more yellow at lower pH.  That may be why some of the soap made with madder, a good source of alizarin, looks peach when it’s done.  It will be interesting to see if that color change is observable in the soap as it saponifies and the pH drops.  What is the final pH of a typical bar of soap?


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## earlene (Jun 11, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> What is the final pH of a typical bar of soap?



Around 9-11


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 11, 2019)

earlene said:


> Around 9-11



I think the lower end of that range is right around where it starts to move towards towards warmer red.


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## earlene (Jun 12, 2019)

Apparently the manjistha I use, although also know as Indian madder, does not derive its color from alizarin, but from munjistan.  (reference)  So I am wondering what other differences there are among the different madders that other soapers may actually be using, since there are really so many species within the genus that are called madder.

Also of interest in that link (which I may have got from you or found on my own; I don't even recall at this point) is that hard water gives better red.  Since so many of us have learned to use distilled water in our soap, even if our tap water is hard water, that's not what we're generally using to mix colorants.  Adding a single tablet of Tums or some other form of calcium & magnesium salts will apparently bring out the red.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 12, 2019)

earlene said:


> Apparently the manjistha I use, although also know as Indian madder, does not derive its color from alizarin, but from munjistan.  (reference)  So I am wondering what other differences there are among the different madders that other soapers may actually be using, since there are really so many species within the genus that are called madder.
> 
> Also of interest in that link (which I may have got from you or found on my own; I don't even recall at this point) is that hard water gives better red.  Since so many of us have learned to use distilled water in our soap, even if our tap water is hard water, that's not what we're generally using to mix colorants.  Adding a single tablet of Tums or some other form of calcium & magnesium salts will apparently bring out the red.



Check out the links in this post about the pigments in the madder and their heat sensitivity, which led me to try “coaxing out the red” from the tinctorum type of madder by simmering in a water bath held below 160 F. There is lots of other potentially interesting info at the links I posted closer to the beginning.  Learning about plant pigments is enough for a full time research career!  The hard water aspect of this got me thinking about the use of sea salts and saltwater, which are both rich in magnesium and calcium.  But... I’ve also read that magnesium and calcium in “hard water” contribute to soap scum and DOS.  Do you know if bars made with sea salt or saltwater end up with DOS more quickly than the average bar, or if the soaps exacerbate soap scum?


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## earlene (Jun 12, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Check out the links in this post about the pigments in the madder and their heat sensitivity, which led me to try “coaxing out the red” from the tinctorum type of madder by simmering in a water bath held below 160 F. There is lots of other potentially interesting info at the links I posted closer to the beginning.  Learning about plant pigments is enough for a full time research career!  The hard water aspect of this got me thinking about the use of sea salts and saltwater, which are both rich in magnesium and calcium.  But... I’ve also read that magnesium and calcium in “hard water” contribute to soap scum and DOS.  Do you know if bars made with sea salt or saltwater end up with DOS more quickly than the average bar, or if the soaps exacerbate soap scum?



Oh, right, so it was you I got that link from.  I couldn't remember.  I do recall checking out all your links because it is all very interesting.  My SIL is a weaver and has died her own fibers for weaving.  One fun project she and her weaving group were working on was to test out all and sundry natural plant for dye for their fibers.  When I was there last fall/winter, my SIL showed me her Redwood tree cones in solution and the various shades she obtained by dyeing yarn at different strengths over time.  I believe she was hoping to get the color of Redwood bark, but never achieved quite that shade.  But the range of purples, mauves and reddish browns was really striking.  They live in the Santa Cruz mountains with an abundance of redwood trees on their property, so she can pretty much harvest the cones to her hearts content.

Regarding sea salt or saltwater soap contributing to DOS or soap scum, I can't really say.  For one I haven't researched it, and for another I've never used sea salt or sea water in my soap, unless the salt in the grocery store comes from the sea.  I don't really know the source of the salt I use in my soap other than it's the cheapest stuff I can buy at the grocery store.  And I know I don't get soap scum from my soaps because when my husband worked on the pipes in the bathroom a month or two ago (he dropped something down the drain & had to take it apart) he said it was so clean it looked like someone had cleaned it out recently.  Well no one had because I know I didn't and he is the only other person here.  I use EDTA and ROE to combat soap scum and we have been using my soap exclusively for about 4 years now.  Also, though we do have hard water, we use a water softener and make sure it gets charged up with water softener salt when necessary.

But I have added a TUMs tablet to soap before.  So have others here, as there are a few of us who have made and used tooth soap.  See this thread:  https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/soap-for-teeth.60591/


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 12, 2019)

@earlene 

As far as I am aware, all(?) regular table salt is mined from ancient sea salt deposits that are now on land. The processing removes everything except the sodium chloride.  It typically has iodine and an anti-caking agent added during the processing.  Sea salt contains many different minerals.  This company has a graphic presentation (infogram) to show the high mineral concentrations in their sea salt.

Tooth Soap - yet another thing to learn about on SMF!


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 21, 2019)

In my continuing quest to find the perfect pink from a natural colorant, I am still playing around with Madder.  For this test run I made a layered soap to show the different ways I prepared the Madder.  I added layers colored with rose clay and white kaolin clay for comparison. I soaped a bit too warm, which had me dangerously close to soap on a stick, but the colors are good.  From top to bottom, the layers are:

White kaolin clay
Madder tincture (powder in 50% isopropyl alcohol; I evaporated the alcohol before using; formed a gel!) - vibrant pink!  YAY!!! Will it hold???
Madder dye made on the stove (as described above; but I reduced it to 25% of initial volume using gentle heat) - disappointing considering how long it took to make the dye
Madder powder (I passed it through a nylon stocking to get the finest powder) - I like the speckles as long as they are not scratchy, which is yet to be determined.
White kaolin clay soaked in Madder tincture (I evaporated the alcohol from the slurry after I soaked the clay; it looked like cosmetic liquid face makeup) - has potential to be interesting; may have interacted with the clay layer below to produce the yellowish line?
Rose clay (from BB; for color comparison) - reliable and easy
I plan to try a small batch with @JuliaNegusuk ‘s Madder tea technique next.


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## earlene (Jun 21, 2019)

Gorgeous.  I love the tincture layer.  Watching to see how it lasts!


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 21, 2019)

I read that alizarin, the red pigment in Madder, is most soluble in organic solvents.  Not wanting to use something toxic in my soap , I thought I would give alcohol a try.  It looked promising from the very beginning because the “solvent” turned deep red immediately.  I think it should last as well as any madder infusion or tea. The clay idea grew out of reading articles about the evolving use of clays to remove dye from wastewater in treatment plants. Kaolin is not the best clay for scavenging dyes, but it seems to have worked at adsorbing(?) the alizarin in the tincture, which was fairly weak in my test.  Next time I will try clay that is “activated” by gentle heating.  There’s a possibility that some of the dye could get into the clay mineral if I do that, maybe... I thought I knew a lot about clay, but I don’t, which means I have more reading to do if my brain doesn’t break first


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## szaza (Jun 21, 2019)

I love the idea of making a tincture with alcohol and a really pretty pink you got with it as well!


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## Obsidian (Jun 21, 2019)

You do know that alcohol will react badly with lye right? It can't be used in CP.

You'll need to figure out a way to remove the dye from the alcohol. I'd mix it with some oil and gently heat it until the alcohol evaporates.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 21, 2019)

Obsidian said:


> You do know that alcohol will react badly with lye right? It can't be used in CP.
> 
> You'll need to figure out a way to remove the dye from the alcohol. I'd mix it with some oil and gently heat it until the alcohol evaporates.



I gave my method in this post above.  As I noted, I used 50% isopropyl:50% water to make the tincture and then evaporated the alcohol off by gently heating it in a Pyrex dish that was sitting in a water bath. I’m not a trained as a chemist, but based on what I have read in the scientific literature, the alizarin dye extracted from madder root is not soluble in oil until it has been transformed into a “lake pigment” by precipitating it on to a metallic salt.  Pure alizarin is highly soluble in organic solvents, like chloroform, DMSO and some alcohols, and somewhat less soluble in water. For example, see this chemical reference for pure alizarin.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 21, 2019)

@Obsidian I edited the above to add a little more information.  Thanks for helping me to clarify this point so that no one puts alcohol in lye!


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## szaza (Jun 22, 2019)

I think the tincture could be very promising for adding plant colorants to hp soap after cook..[emoji848] do you think it could work with other colors as well? (Like indigo, spirulina,..)


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 22, 2019)

szaza said:


> I think the tincture could be very promising for adding plant colorants to hp soap after cook..[emoji848] do you think it could work with other colors as well? (Like indigo, spirulina,..)



This will probably be much more than you wanted to know, but that’s the way it is for me once I get started on something I find interesting 

The various kinds of plant pigments differ in their solubilities in different kinds of liquids, which can include “organic solvents,” alcohols, oil, water.  They also vary in stability as a function of light, pH and other variables. It’s definitely complicated and many doctoral dissertations and scientific papers have been written on plant pigments and dyes by scientists in the dye, food and wastewater treatment fields.

While chemically synthesized pigments are comprised of the purified compound (just the molecules of the pigment), dyers have a long history of finding ways to extract naturally occurring pigments from various plant materials to dye fabric.  My kitchen is not a laboratory and my methods are crude, so anything I’m extracting in a jar in my kitchen or in a pot on the stove is going to be a mix of plant pigment molecules and other things that are soluble in alcohol and/or water.  I also end up with very fine to coarse plant particles that don’t dissolve, which I can filter out, let settle to the bottom of a jar, or include (if they’re not scratchy!).

As soon as I can pull myself away from making soap I’m going to work on a reference table that I will post for anyone who might be interested. I got started down this road because of the color changes with chlorophyll and because I had no luck whatsoever getting my madder powder to infuse into oil. While some pigments, like the carotenoids in annatto seeds and paprika, seem to be readily soluble in oil, my madder powder hasn’t noticeably given up any color to the oil it has been sitting in for the last couple of weeks. Based on observations only, chlorophyll, which is a primary pigment in green plants and algae, seems to be at least somewhat oil soluble. But, unlike many of the carotenoids, it is a very unstable molecule. Soapers know that because the green colors fade or turn brown.  For that reason, it’s probably better to use plant material ground into a very fine powder to get the green color. I also have an idea about trying to protect very finely ground plant material a bit from the ravages of lye by soaking it in a glycerin and alcohol mixture and then evaporating off the alcohol before using the glycerin infused powder in a recipe. Another experiment in the making!  The primary pigment in Spirulina is phycocyanin, which I have not had a chance to research.

Indigo dye is especially challenging because it is insoluble.  Dyers have to use a special process to make it “stick” to fabric.  I just recently found a great article on using indigo in soapmaking.  It’s by Kevin Dunn and is available on the WSP website, here.  This is the key part as it pertains to using indigo in soap.
“Indigo is sold in two commercial varieties. The traditional one is a dark blue powder that is insoluble in both oil and water. It can be mixed with a little oil to make a slurry and then added to your oil as with any other solid soap colorant. The newer variety has been pre-treated with lye. While it is sometimes described as “soluble” or “pre-reduced,” it is actually neither of those in the strict chemical sense. It forms an opaque suspension in water (not a transparent solution), and may be added to your lye portion. Either variety may be used in soap, but they should be used sparingly to avoid staining hands, sinks, and countertops. One gram of indigo per kilogram of oil produces a dark grayish-blue color in cold process soap.”

I’ve had some success using indigo from Brambleberry (ETA: actually, mine in from Nuture), which I ended up mixing with oil because it really did not want to mix with water.  I have not tried adding it to my lye water.

ETA: I just mixed some of the plant derived indigo powder I have with 91% alcohol and it readily formed a suspension. It’s too early to tell if the pigment will dissolve to form a solution.


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## TAS (Jun 23, 2019)

Thank you for sharing your great research. I am soaping vicariously through you (you don't mind do you?). 
PS I use to use madder to dye my wool yarn when I was a weaver. It was one of my favorite colors to work with.


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## szaza (Jun 23, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> This will probably be much more than you wanted to know, but that’s the way it is for me once I get started on something I find interesting
> 
> The various kinds of plant pigments differ in their solubilities in different kinds of liquids, which can include “organic solvents,” alcohols, oil, water.  They also vary in stability as a function of light, pH and other variables. It’s definitely complicated and many doctoral dissertations and scientific papers have been written on plant pigments and dyes by scientists in the dye, food and wastewater treatment fields.
> 
> ...


Haha there is no such thing as too much information when it comes to soapmaking [emoji6] thanks for sharing your knowledge [emoji16] 

I've actually had a really nice denim color from indigo added to the lye water. I'll try to check if I can find out which variety of indigo I have, because seeing the difference in results from indigo on this forum I think there's a lot of difference in types and quality of Indigo.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 23, 2019)

szaza said:


> Haha there is no such thing as too much information when it comes to soapmaking [emoji6] thanks for sharing your knowledge [emoji16]
> 
> I've actually had a really nice denim color from indigo added to the lye water. I'll try to check if I can find out which variety of indigo I have, because seeing the difference in results from indigo on this forum I think there's a lot of difference in types and quality of Indigo.



  Sounds good

I’ve been contemplating buying the pure indigo pigment from the supplier where I buy my fabric dyes.  I dyed some fabric using the traditional shibori techniques for manipulating the fabric, but ended up using an indigo Procion dye because I didn’t want to get into messing around with the real indigo pigment.  Now I’m trying to figure out how to use natural plant indigo in soap. Crazy!  There’s more details on what I learned about the different plant sources of indigo, including some species names, above in case you missed it. The tests Amy Warden (GreatCakesSoapworks) did produced a range of colors, but she did not use every method with every kind of indigo she used.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 23, 2019)

TAS said:


> Thank you for sharing your great research. I am soaping vicariously through you (you don't mind do you?).
> PS I use to use madder to dye my wool yarn when I was a weaver. It was one of my favorite colors to work with.



Soap on and let us know how it goes! 

I’ve always wanted to try dyeing with plant materials but felt like I should have wool or silk rather than cotton.  Never quite got there, but one of these days I will be retired with lots of time to try even more new things!


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## Dawni (Jun 23, 2019)

I've soaped, and posted, three different kinds of indigo but not extensively.

The powder straight off the plant will not give blue. It'll be a caramel sorta color.. One indigo gives more of a grey blue, and one gives blue. Unless that's not what you meant? Haha

I have a feeling that anything that's made and sold for soaping isn't "pure" in the sense that it comes straight from the plant, coz I've had similar experiences with ratanjot (similar to Alkanet), madder root and even moringa and turmeric. Maybe there's a process that the "raw" material I have hasn't undergone or mine lacks whatever additives the soaping stuff has? 

I've never gotten a similar color to what others have gotten (at least from what I've seen here and online lol) and all of my powders and roots came from either the supermarket or a spice vendor, except for the blue indigo. I dried n powdered my own moringa leaves.. the turmeric we use regularly in cooking comes from a Pakistani grocery.. my madder came in both root form and coarse powder, same with my ratanjot. Both indigo powders I have were gifted, one from a soaper, and the green indigo is also from a spice shop.


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## TAS (Jun 23, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Soap on and let us know how it goes!
> 
> I’ve always wanted to try dyeing with plant materials but felt like I should have wool or silk rather than cotton.  Never quite got there, but one of these days I will be retired with lots of time to try even more new things!


Cotton is a harder fiber to dye. Wool and silk fibers open up and receive the dye very well. Continue your investigation, and hopefully you will share your findings with us. Good work!


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## szaza (Jun 23, 2019)

Looked up the info on my indigo.. on the package it just sais 'indigo'. On the suppliers website it's specified as 'Indicum naturalis, Indigofera tinctori' and  'premium quality from El Salvador', so not really sure if that info is helpful


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 23, 2019)

szaza said:


> Looked up the info on my indigo.. on the package it just sais 'indigo'. On the suppliers website it's specified as 'Indicum naturalis, Indigofera tinctori' and  'premium quality from El Salvador', so not really sure if that info is helpful



Oops, the indigo info I posted is in this thread and mostly in the first post, where you can also see the color I achieved.  I think I. tinctori is the traditional indigo plant, but indigo is made by many different plant species and some marine snails as well.


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## szaza (Jun 23, 2019)

Yes, I've seen that thread, I love that soap!!  I meant it might not be helpful in the sense that I'm not sure if it was the non-soluble or the pre-reduced version..


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 23, 2019)

szaza said:


> Yes, I've seen that thread, I love that soap!!  I meant it might not be helpful in the sense that I'm not sure if it was the non-soluble or the pre-reduced version..



Thank you szaza .  The info on non-soluble vs. pre-reduced seems to be hard to come by unless you buy the indigo from a dye supplier.  I think dyers are highly educated on the plant materials they are using.  I think some soapmakers are, too, but it seems that some of the most accomplished with using plant colorants have retired from soaping.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 25, 2019)

Another test with madder, as well as the indigo I bought from Nuture.  I included the previous madder test soap for color comparison.  For this test, I added a little boiling distilled water to the indigo and madder powders at around 7 am, mixed the indigo as best I could and then let them sit until 6 pm when I made the soap. I then added the additional water I needed for the lye.  I strained the cooled lye water through a piece of cotton interlock material, which I used to line in a small sieve.  This ensured that no chunks of anything got through, but was not enough to keep some very fine particles of the madder powder from making it into the middle soap.  The pink from the madder in this test is a little warmer than the pink that I achieved using the alcohol tincture (the layer just below the white one in the soap on the right). Based on everything I’ve read, that happens because the boiling water method pulls some brown pigments out of the madder.  The tincture method keeps the temperature low, which should theoretically help to retain the purer red (alizarin) pigment.  

For now, it looks like both the tea method (boiling water/lye water extraction) and the tincture method (alcohol/water extraction) produce great pinks.  I’m also super happy to have figured out the concentration for a mid saturation color with the indigo powder I have.


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## szaza (Jun 25, 2019)

That's a very pretty blue you got there!! Really like the difference in shades of pink between the 2 madders as well[emoji6] it's cool that you got a warmer and a brighter shade! Now you can choose which one you want in a particular soap[emoji106]


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## earlene (Jun 25, 2019)

I love that shade of blue you got with your indigo, *Mobjack*.

I thought of you when I found this colorant testing documentation sheet:
https://thenovastudio.com/wp-conten...rant-testing-sheet-branded-version-031717.pdf


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 25, 2019)

earlene said:


> I love that shade of blue you got with your indigo, *Mobjack*.
> 
> I thought of you when I found this colorant testing documentation sheet:
> https://thenovastudio.com/wp-conten...rant-testing-sheet-branded-version-031717.pdf



Thanks Earlene and Szaza.  That form is perfect for what I’m doing.  Thanks for passing it along.  I have been keeping notes in my “lab” notebook, but I sometimes forget to write down a key detail.


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## TAS (Jul 3, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Another test with madder, as well as the indigo I bought from Nuture.
> 
> View attachment 39933


Totally impressed


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 3, 2019)

TAS said:


> Totally impressed


Thanks TAS!  Give it a try!


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## TAS (Jul 3, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Thanks TAS!  Give it a try!


Thinking about it.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 3, 2019)

TAS said:


> Thinking about it.


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## JuliaNegusuk (Jul 7, 2019)

I have at last made some more Lavender and Tussah Silk soap with madder (Rubria Tinctorum).  This is using the "tea" method - just mix the powder with boiling water, leave to cool and sieve out.  Some pics below:

The madder tea.





After addition of tussah silk and lye.




Mixed just prior to pouring.




In the mould before bunging in the oven to be CPOPed.  Wow is that pink!




Out of the oven the following day.  Much lighter colour.




Two little nub ends that date from when I was putting the recipes together, so about 2 years old.  These have been kept in a dark place.  On the left madder root added at trace.  On the right, madder root added to the lye (with lavender buds aka mouse poo).  I later stopped adding to the lye in preference to making the tea in advance because I didn't feel comfortable doing the sieving process with caustic lye.  Much safer to do beforehand, and I didn't feel it made much, if any difference to the colour using the tea method.





General comments.  I think it is a good pink and on the whole, lasts well, and is very easy, no steeping for days or weeks or boiling on stoves.  I have to agree with an earlier comment that the tea method does bring out a hint of brown, and the pink you get I would describe as dusky rather than bright.  It doesn't seem to fade or go brown long term, at least not if it is kept in the dark.  I am actually using one of these soaps from a batch I made about 6 months ago.  The colour does seem to fade a bit and get a little bit "muddy" towards the end of its life whilst in use, I'm now about three quarters of the way through it.  But it is still visibly pink, if not the pure pink of an artificial colourant.  I guess if you want to use natural colourants you have to be prepared to accept that they can be a bit variable.  I still prefer using them to using artificial colourants and fragrance oils.  If I want artificial, bright soap I can buy it from Tesco at a fraction of the price, but I am not into colours and swirls, so that's just me.  Hope this is helpful.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 7, 2019)

JuliaNegusuk said:


> I have at last made some more Lavender and Tussah Silk soap with madder (Rubria Tinctorum).  This is using the "tea" method - just mix the powder with boiling water, leave to cool and sieve out.  Some pics below:
> 
> The madder tea.
> 
> ...



Julia, Thank you for all of your help and inspiration! I definitely enjoy using the natural colorants. Every soap making session turns out to be a bit of an experiment  and I like the softer colors and natural look of the soaps. I’m super happy with the warmer pink I achieved with your tea method and the slightly brighter pink I achieved with the tincture, plus, they look nice together.  It’s also great to hear that the color is holding up for you.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 9, 2019)

I finally had a chance to read the article linked below, which is about using indigo to produce a light pink. I haven’t done a full blown indigo oil infusion, so I don’t know if my indigo will produce pink that way, but it does release a purplish/magenta color in 91% IPA.  It seems worth a try. Making an oil infusion is easier than working with a tincture, although a tincture can be concentrated to some degree.

https://kapiamera.blog/2015/12/17/sweet-heart-soap/


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 16, 2019)

Here’s another madder test run.  For this soap I used 1 TBS madder in the lye water, which produced a small volcano.  (1 TBS ppo produced the color intensity in the bottom layer)  It’s then messy to strain the lye.  The resulting color is intense, so it may be worth the trouble to get the color.  This soap is a palm based recipe.  I was also practicing using shapers to sculpt the layers for a gradient, mixing as I went up with uncolored batter from a second batch.   The soap has to be at higher trace for sculpting and one must take care not to end up with bubbles in the soap .  I’m planing to make a comparison soap with madder tincture soonish.


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## Rahmi (Jul 16, 2019)

I made a batch last week using madder root. Should've read this thread first! 

I added my madder root to a tiny bowl of traced oil to disperse it. At first I thought I added too much  ( about a tablespoon) because it turned blue! Now I know it's a pH thing. 

I used it anyway, thinking it would stay blue, and was pleasantly surprised when it turned pink the next day! Wished I used more  can't wait to see if it's scratchy or not. I hope not.


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## Dawni (Jul 16, 2019)

@Mobjack Bay I like that second from the bottom shade.

@Rahmi that's really pretty!

You both have reminded me that I should use my madder root infusion soon....


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 16, 2019)

Rahmi said:


> I made a batch last week using madder root. Should've read this thread first!
> 
> I added my madder root to a tiny bowl of traced oil to disperse it. At first I thought I added too much  ( about a tablespoon) because it turned blue! Now I know it's a pH thing.
> 
> I used it anyway, thinking it would stay blue, and was pleasantly surprised when it turned pink the next day! Wished I used more  can't wait to see if it's scratchy or not. I hope not.



That is super pretty soap Rahmi!  Do you know which kind of madder you have (the INCI?).  Based on the photo, the pink color you got is very pure (no brown/warm tones) and is more like what I can get when I make a tincture using alcohol.  I worry about the scratchiness of madder powder which is why I have been exploring ways to extract the color rather than adding the powder to the batter.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 16, 2019)

Dawni said:


> @Mobjack Bay I like that second from the bottom shade.



That’s about where I think I would start.  That layer is 2/3 of the madder batter and 1/3 of the un-colored batter and the next one up is the reverse proportions.  The top layer does have a little bit of the madder batter mixed in from what I scraped out of the other pitchers.


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## Rahmi (Jul 16, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> That is super pretty soap Rahmi!  Do you know which kind of madder you have (the INCI?).  Based on the photo, the pink color you got is very pure (no brown/warm tones) and is more like what I can get when I make a tincture using alcohol.  I worry about the scratchiness of madder powder which is why I have been exploring ways to extract the color rather than adding the powder to the batter.



Thanks! I don't know the exact name, but I got it from a natural dye maker in Gujarat, so I'm guessing it would just be the indian madder? I could ask them if you like.


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## Mobjack Bay (Sep 17, 2019)

Rahmi said:


> Thanks! I don't know the exact name, but I got it from a natural dye maker in Gujarat, so I'm guessing it would just be the indian madder? I could ask them if you like.


I guess I never got back to this thread until today.  If you do find out what kind of madder you have, please let us know.  Your pink looks more pink than rose, which is mostly what I get with Rubia tinctorum, except when I infuse it into isopropyl alcohol.


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## Mobjack Bay (Sep 17, 2019)

A new madder experiment and an update on earlier madder soaps:

First, here’s a photo with two soaps discussed above and a new one in the middle.




The soap on the left was made on June 20, so about 3 months ago.  The second layer down is colored with madder colorant that was concentrated from an isopropyl alcohol and water infusion.  It looks like all of the madder colors have faded quite a bit . The original photo is here.  The bottom layer is rose clay.  The way I colored the other layers is described above.  The soap on the right was made on July 14th, so about 2 months ago.  The original photo is in post #69.  For that batch, I added the madder to half of the water and then added the lye to the same pitcher.  I also made a batch of uncolored batter and mixed portions to get the color gradient.  For this one, the pinks now look a bit brighter, or it could be the lighting.  The middle soap is a new one I made this past weekend.

For the latest batch, I mixed household ammonia with madder root powder and let it sit for about two months. I shook the jar occasionally, let the powder fully settle and decanted the ammonia.  With a little help from @DeeAnna and her Soapy Stuff web resource on using ammonia to make soap, I used the madder “dyed” ammonia as a full water replacement in my recipe and adjusted my NaOH accordingly.  I also used a new small 4-bar mold and you can see that I ended up with my first partial gel. The color shade is good, if a bit intense, so I expect that I can get a nice pink by using the ammonia “dye” as a split, independent of the masterbatched lye water.  I still need to think about whether I should add the lye water to the oils first and then the ammonia, or the other way around. I definitely do not want to release a big cloud of ammonia gas!  Given how noxious ammonia fumes are, I do not recommend this technique for beginners.  I will update as the soap cures.


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## Noodge (Sep 22, 2019)

Mobjack, thank you so much for posting updated pictures of your soaps, and for being so thorough with the details of your experiments. This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on this site - fantastic!


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## Mobjack Bay (Sep 22, 2019)

Noodge said:


> Mobjack, thank you so much for posting updated pictures of your soaps, and for being so thorough with the details of your experiments. This is one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on this site - fantastic!


I’m really happy to hear that you’re finding the information useful .  If you decide to try madder, I hope you will let us know how it goes!


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## penelopejane (Sep 22, 2019)

Follow this link for my results using indigo and annatto:  
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/the-indigo-and-jagua-blues.75531/#post-789929


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## Mobjack Bay (Sep 22, 2019)

I can’t wait to see the pics, but I got an error message when I used the link. ETA: pics magically appeared.  Nice soaps!

Also, I also have an indigo thread, here, which might be a better place to  post for future searches, but it’s fine with me either way.


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## penelopejane (Sep 22, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> The hard water aspect of this got me thinking about the use of sea salts and saltwater, which are both rich in magnesium and calcium.  But... I’ve also read that magnesium and calcium in “hard water” contribute to soap scum and DOS.  Do you know if bars made with sea salt or saltwater end up with DOS more quickly than the average bar, or if the soaps exacerbate soap scum?


I have used sea water in soap with no DOS. 
I use sea salt that I know still retains the magnesium and other chemicals that occur naturally in sea water.  So it is like reconstituted sea water but in a controlled way.  I find this gives me a consistent result.  
I have found adding soda bicarb to water has caused DOS consistently.  

I also use citric acid in my soap to stop soap scum. I haven't heard that sea salt exacerbates scum.  Salt just makes a soap hard.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 6, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> A new madder experiment and an update on earlier madder soaps:
> 
> First, here’s a photo with two soaps discussed above and a new one in the middle.
> 
> ...



A 3 week update on the soap made with ammonia - I can still smell an ammonia smell when I cut 0ff a piece of a smaller bar I made.  The bar was made in an individual cavity mold and started out as 3”x3”x1”.  I had cut it into two thinner pieces almost immediately after I made it.  Today I cut a 1/2” thick slice off the end and the ammonia smell is faint, but present.   The soap does not zap.


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## Mobjack Bay (Nov 2, 2019)

I’m back to report that at the ~ 6 week mark, I can still detect just the slightest scent of ammonia is the soap I made with madder in ammonia.  The soap also has a rose FO, which might be affecting my ability to detect the ammonia.  In any case, it’s starting to smell mostly like rose.


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## Mtn5ro (Nov 3, 2019)

Rahmi said:


> I made a batch last week using madder root. Should've read this thread first!
> 
> I added my madder root to a tiny bowl of traced oil to disperse it. At first I thought I added too much  ( about a tablespoon) because it turned blue! Now I know it's a pH thing.
> 
> I used it anyway, thinking it would stay blue, and was pleasantly surprised when it turned pink the next day! Wished I used more  can't wait to see if it's scratchy or not. I hope not.


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## Mtn5ro (Nov 3, 2019)

http://imgur.com/gallery/pENrukq

That is a gorgeous color.  I used manjistha powder and it turned caramel brown all over the outside.  No vanilla EO or fragrance oil,  just lavender,  geranium and bergamot EO. I sprayed with alcohol, covered with box, wrapped in towels and put in preheated oven.  Inside layers are good.  Any ideas?


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## Mobjack Bay (Nov 9, 2019)

Mtn5ro said:


> http://imgur.com/gallery/pENrukq
> 
> That is a gorgeous color.  I used manjistha powder and it turned caramel brown all over the outside.  No vanilla EO or fragrance oil,  just lavender,  geranium and bergamot EO. I sprayed with alcohol, covered with box, wrapped in towels and put in preheated oven.  Inside layers are good.  Any ideas?


Rahmi hasn’t posted in a bit, but I’ve noticed that the natural colorants often end up a bit duller on the edges. I’m not sure why since it seems to happen on both the exposed and unexposed edges.  I like your soap.  You can trim the edges off if you don’t like it that way.


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## curlycoat2 (Nov 9, 2019)

I am curious why you (Mobjack) seem to find straining from the lye water to be fiddly when its pretty similar to straining a tea? The other advantage using the madder of either kind (tinctoria or cordifolia) is that you can use as much of it or as little of it as  you would like to.  The photos of madder that I showed in Modernsoapmaking were made with only 2Tbspns of madder in lye water.

With indigo it will depend on which supplier you purchased your indigo from as some suppliers don't sell the indigo that releases its blue particularly well and as such will produce a grey to grey blue tone no matter what technique you use.

Good to see lots of plant colors being talked about - my favourite part of soaping and yes the pay of fwith plants is the fading but equally that confirms that you have a natural product.  If it doesn't fade something unnatural has been added to it

jo


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## Mobjack Bay (Nov 9, 2019)

curlycoat2 said:


> I am curious why you (Mobjack) seem to find straining from the lye water to be fiddly when its pretty similar to straining a tea? The other advantage using the madder of either kind (tinctoria or cordifolia) is that you can use as much of it or as little of it as  you would like to.  The photos of madder that I showed in Modernsoapmaking were made with only 2Tbspns of madder in lye water.
> 
> With indigo it will depend on which supplier you purchased your indigo from as some suppliers don't sell the indigo that releases its blue particularly well and as such will produce a grey to grey blue tone no matter what technique you use.
> 
> ...


Hey there Jo!  I have your e-book .  Beautiful soaps!  It’s a good reference for understanding the range of techniques that can be used to achieve the best results when using natural colorants.  The easiest way to answer your question is that I like to experiment. I think I read somewhere that you have a science background and I do too, so you will understand that need to experiment.  I’ve tried different ways to coax colors out of madder and indigo, which both have multiple plant pigments.  The lye tea method works well enough for madder although I find that I have to strain it through a paper filter or cloth if I want to keep all of the powder out of my soap.  It also produces a volcano in the container.  That gets a little messy.  I’ve also extracted madder using alcohol and was able to achieve a very bright pink without any brown overtones.  My extractions in ammonia pulled strong color, but the pink wasn’t as pure.

I don’t have an aversion to micas, but I definitely prefer natural plant colorants when I can get the colors to behave. Yes, they fade, but the colors of the soaps I made in the summer are still pretty and some of them have mellowed into a nicer shade.  I don’t sell, but have also considered the possibility that someone could have an allergy to an uncommon plant additive like madder, so I label everything I give away. 

I have a question for you!  Do you add goat milk to all of your recipes?  If so, do you know how/why that helps with the color?


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## Mobjack Bay (Dec 31, 2019)

Updates on my madder soaps show in posts #39 and #58.  The soaps have been stored in brown paper bags since the 8 week mark.  The pinks have faded a bit, but interestingly, the speckles in the layered soap have disappeared.  The madder tincture layer, which is the second layer from the top in the middle soap, has lost the most color and shows what looks like some migration of the pigment.  The soap to the left, one of the first soaps I made, is colored with rose clay, which is the same colorant in the bottom layer of the middle soap.  The clay color is holding well.  I used BB’s Wild Rose in the soap on the right, which was made 6 months ago and the scent is still there, if faint.  I likely used 3% ppo, but don’t have my notes handy.






ETA: info on the soaps described in posts #69 and #76, which also were stored in paper bags in the dark.  These have probably faded a bit, but the colors are still plenty intense.  The Wild Rose scent is [ETA: with a fresh nose, I would say “not quite”] gone from the soap made with madder in ammonia, which is the soap on the left.  It seems to have disappeared right around the time the ammonia odor totally dissipated.  The soap on the right still smells wonderful.  I think I used MMS Somali Rose, but will need to check. [ETA: it’s BB White Ginger & Amber, not Somali Rose]




Details on how the soaps were made are above, or in linked posts.


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## curlycoat2 (Jan 1, 2020)

Clay will always stay the same. What you see is what you get pretty much depending on how much you use of course.  It won't fade at all.  Any plant colorant over time will fade no matter what technique you use it with.  Its like flowers in a vase they will all go brown over time.


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## szaza (Jan 1, 2020)

Thanks for the update @Mobjack Bay ! It looks like the madder in lye water holds up the longest, or is that just because it was made later? What do you think of the clay soaked in tincture? It doesn't really stand out next to the rose clay, but since the color was rather soft to begin with it's a bit harder to tell how much it has faded. Do you think soaking the tincture in clay helped in any way to make the color last longer? (Sorry, lots of questions, good morning and happy new year)


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 1, 2020)

szaza said:


> Thanks for the update @Mobjack Bay ! It looks like the madder in lye water holds up the longest, or is that just because it was made later? What do you think of the clay soaked in tincture? It doesn't really stand out next to the rose clay, but since the color was rather soft to begin with it's a bit harder to tell how much it has faded. Do you think soaking the tincture in clay helped in any way to make the color last longer? (Sorry, lots of questions, good morning and happy new year)


You are very observant .  I do think the clay soaked in tincture held its color fairly well.  My notes don’t record how long I let the clay soak, but it probably wasn’t for very long (impatience was likely at that time).  A possible approach moving ahead would be to 1) dry the clay in the oven first, i.e. to ensure it has capacity to soak up the tincture and 2) let the dry clay soak in excess concentrated tincture, possibly overnight so it has a chance to soak up as much of the tincture as possible.  The result might be a “rose clay” made with madder .

and Happy New Year to you, too!  I look forward to reading your posts in 2020


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 2, 2020)

@szaza I forgot to answer your question about the madder in lye water soap.  When I have a chance, I will take a better photo of the layered soap on the right in the bottom photo for a side-by-side comparison with the original photo.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 2, 2020)

curlycoat2 said:


> Clay will always stay the same. What you see is what you get pretty much depending on how much you use of course.  It won't fade at all.  Any plant colorant over time will fade no matter what technique you use it with.  Its like flowers in a vase they will all go brown over time.


This forum is a wonderful place to learn and share.  A group of us are interested in how long the various plant colorants take to fade.  We have learned that most all of the green plant colorants fade quickly, while madder, indigo and annatto last longer. The key questions we’ve been exploring are 1) how long do the other colors last, and 2) what are the best conditions for preserving the colors.  We would welcome any insights you have based on your experiences with natural colorants.


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## szaza (Jan 2, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I do think the clay soaked in tincture held its color fairly well.


That's very interesting!! Now I'm thinking about soaking clay with other tinctures as well and see if it holds up. I just ruined my scale, so I won't be making much soap before I have a new one, but this sure makes the list of things I'd like to explore!


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## szaza (Jan 2, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I look forward to reading your posts in 2020


Right back at ya!


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## linne1gi (Jan 2, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Here’s another madder test run.  For this soap I used 1 TBS madder in the lye water, which produced a small volcano.  (1 TBS ppo produced the color intensity in the bottom layer)  It’s then messy to strain the lye.  The resulting color is intense, so it may be worth the trouble to get the color.  This soap is a palm based recipe.  I was also practicing using shapers to sculpt the layers for a gradient, mixing as I went up with uncolored batter from a second batch.   The soap has to be at higher trace for sculpting and one must take care not to end up with bubbles in the soap .  I’m planing to make a comparison soap with madder tincture soonish.
> 
> View attachment 40325


I have just started using natural colorants, so, I just want to say, wow, that’s beautiful soap. I think I’m going backwards, most people start out with natural colors and progress to micas. I’ve been using micas for 7 years and now I’m experimenting with natural colors!


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 2, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> I have just started using natural colorants, so, I just want to say, wow, that’s beautiful soap. I think I’m going backwards, most people start out with natural colors and progress to micas. I’ve been using micas for 7 years and now I’m experimenting with natural colors!


I look forward to seeing what you come up with!


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## Sally Scheibner (Jan 3, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> You are very observant .  I do think the clay soaked in tincture held its color fairly well.  My notes don’t record how long I let the clay soak, but it probably wasn’t for very long (impatience was likely at that time).  A possible approach moving ahead would be to 1) dry the clay in the oven first, i.e. to ensure it has capacity to soak up the tincture and 2) let the dry clay soak in excess concentrated tincture, possibly overnight so it has a chance to soak up as much of the tincture as possible.  The result might be a “rose clay” made with madder .
> 
> and Happy New Year to you, too!  I look forward to reading your posts in 2020


What is the type of the tincture used?


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## Sally Scheibner (Jan 3, 2020)

What is the type of the tincture used?  ....?

I like clay better than herbs or flowers. Too unstable.  
Tried *alkanet* but not impressed. 
*Spirilina* & *Alfalfa* is a fair green additive. 
Ground *Dragonblood* tears adds a slight pink tint, but little fragrance. 
*Cocoa & coffee* works too.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 3, 2020)

Sally Scheibner said:


> What is the type of the tincture used?  ....?
> 
> I like clay better than herbs or flowers. Too unstable.
> Tried *alkanet* but not impressed.
> ...


Refer to this post for the information on the tincture: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/whats-the-madder-with-my-madder.75340/page-2#post-775161


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 5, 2020)

The promised side-by-side comparison of the layered soap with the freshly made soap on the top and soaps after time on the bottom.


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## Kcryss (Jan 30, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> The promised side-by-side comparison of the layered soap with the fresh soap on the left and current soap on the right.
> 
> View attachment 43264
> View attachment 43265



Wow! This is amazing research on your part! Great job! I love the idea of coloring the white clay with plant tinctures! I'm new enough that I haven't tried any of this yet, but based on what I've been reading, greens do not like to stick around very long. Wondering if coloring clay with greens from an alcohol tincture would have the same results. Also, was wondering about using vinegar to extract the color and then mix with the lye. Maybe I will try that with my next batch! 

Have you tried greens or just the madder?


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 30, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> Wow! This is amazing research on your part! Great job! I love the idea of coloring the white clay with plant tinctures! I'm new enough that I haven't tried any of this yet, but based on what I've been reading, greens do not like to stick around very long. Wondering if coloring clay with greens from an alcohol tincture would have the same results. Also, was wondering about using vinegar to extract the color and then mix with the lye. Maybe I will try that with my next batch!
> 
> Have you tried greens or just the madder?


I haven’t tried the green pigment in alcohol, but I think @szaza may have at some point.  The challenge with chlorophyll, the green pigment in most plants, is that it is not very stable compared with other plant pigments.  I did write about it somewhere and will try to remember to add that link when I find it.  The pigment in Spirulina is called phycocyanin.  From what I can tell, it is more resistant to fading compared with chlorophyll.

Here’s the link to the thread on my Matcha tea experiments:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/matcha-tea-soap.75493/


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## Kcryss (Jan 30, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I haven’t tried the green pigment in alcohol, but I think @szaza may have at some point.  The challenge with chlorophyll, the green pigment in most plants, is that it is not very stable compared with other plant pigments.  I did write about it somewhere and will try to remember to add that link when I find it.  The pigment in Spirulina is called phycocyanin.  From what I can tell, it is more resistant to fading compared with chlorophyll.



Oh, didn't know that about Spirulina. Good to know. Now I wish I hadn't just hit submit on my herb order.  
Will have to grab it next time. I did grab some kelp and a few other greens I don't normally use. Will be trying them once I get my order. Thanks for all your research and sharing what you've learned! Reading all of this has been very inspirational! I will happily update with anything I discover.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 30, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> Oh, didn't know that about Spirulina. Good to know. Now I wish I hadn't just hit submit on my herb order.
> Will have to grab it next time. I did grab some kelp and a few other greens I don't normally use. Will be trying them once I get my order. Thanks for all your research and sharing what you've learned! Reading all of this has been very inspirational! I will happily update with anything I discover.


There are some good threads on using natural colorants that have been posted in the last year.  To find them, use the search feature in this forum to search on words like matcha, Spirulina, moringa, indigo, annatto, turmeric, etc, but then refine the search by using the “search again” option and selecting “most recent” instead of “relevant”.  The recent threads will come up nearish to the top, or at least in the first few pages.  Natural colorants are finicky, so I usually stick with small batches when I’m experimenting. Have fun and be sure to post photos


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## szaza (Jan 31, 2020)

The clays soaked in tincture are drying at the moment. I hope to use them in soap this weekend or next week


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## Kcryss (Jan 31, 2020)

szaza said:


> The clays soaked in tincture are drying at the moment. I hope to use them in soap this weekend or next week



What plants are you using szaza? I'm trying alfalfa, parsley, and sage.

Doing the same process Mobjack used with the madder root. 50/50 isopropyl alcohol with 3 tbs of herbs in 3 seperate jars. Also trying one jar with parsley and vinegar (5%). I let the alcohol tinctures sit covered overnight (12 hrs), added 4 tsp white kaolin clay to each of the 3 jars and stirred. I'm leaving uncovered while I work and will check/stir throughout the day. The vinegar infusion I warmed to 110, added the parsley and stirred. Left it sit overnight as well and kept it covered. Will also setup a heated oil infusion later this morning to use with one of the 3 herbs.

Current photo


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## Kcryss (Jan 31, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> There are some good threads on using natural colorants that have been posted in the last year.  To find them, use the search feature in this forum to search on words like matcha, Spirulina, moringa, indigo, annatto, turmeric, etc, but then refine the search by using the “search again” option and selecting “most recent” instead of “relevant”.  The recent threads will come up nearish to the top, or at least in the first few pages.  Natural colorants are finicky, so I usually stick with small batches when I’m experimenting. Have fun and be sure to post photos



I think I found the one you are referring to Mobjack! Looks like czaza is already working on other colors.


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## szaza (Jan 31, 2020)

I did spirulina, annatto, moringa, alkanet and wheatgrass and compared them to french green and pink clays. My soap is in the mold as we speak
I used a bit of a different method for making my isopropanol or ethanol tinctures.. for more info see this thread


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## Kcryss (Jan 31, 2020)

szaza said:


> I did spirulina, annatto, moringa, alkanet and wheatgrass and compared them to french green and pink clays. My soap is in the mold as we speak
> I used a bit of a different method for making my isopropanol or ethanol tinctures.. for more info see this thread



Thanks! Just finished reading through that one! Great info and love your experiments. Looks like my little one from last night/this morning will be a little weak.

Based on the experiments by both you and Mobjack, a long tincture based extraction combined with a long soak with clay produces the best long term results. Maybe 2 weeks tincture extraction and 1 week clay? I'm guessing that the clay will dull the color somewhat, but over time will prove to be a better option. Just a guess/assumption on my part.


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## szaza (Jan 31, 2020)

That's what I'm hoping for too


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## szaza (Feb 1, 2020)

I posted my soap with tincture colored clay here in case anyone is interested


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## josianeg (May 27, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> It’s interesting that the critical heat degradation temp for both madder pigments and chlorophyll is right in the range at which soap goes into gel phase.



Does that mean we shouldn’t gel soap made with madder ?


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## Mobjack Bay (May 27, 2020)

josianeg said:


> Does that mean we shouldn’t gel soap made with madder ?


The soaps in the bottom photo in post #89 gelled and I think the colors are good.  High temps might cause the color to shift towards the warmer side of the pinks, but it’s definitely worth it to try gelling if you want an intense color.  If you soap with madder, I hope you will come back and share your results!


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## linne1gi (May 27, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Dang, I just wrote a post that vanished due to clumsy fingers
> 
> Found this at Mad Micas: Madder powder is scratchy and produces speckles when added to soap at trace, but infusing in oil for a few day eliminates scratchiness and speckles (website).
> 
> ...


I recently bought Jo Haslauer ‘s ebook on national colorants. I added my Madder Root to my lye water, 1 teaspoon and it gave me a deep maroon color, very pretty.


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## atiz (May 27, 2020)

I have kind of forgotten about this, but I used madder infusion in one of my first salt bars. The infusion was a cold infusion in avocado oil, which was used in 10% of the total batch.
I was a beginner soaper and it was super weird, I was very upset with it at first. The madder infusion was beautiful maroon, then pink when added the lye. And then it turned blue/grey. 
Here's the soap when cut; and when it turned back into pink, after about a week. 
(I still have one bar of this batch, and will check how the color is doing -- but right now all is packed up in moving boxes and who knows where they are... This was made in Jan. 2019, and was still pink the last time I used one, sometime in the fall).


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## Mobjack Bay (May 27, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> I recently bought Jo Haslauer ‘s ebook on national colorants. I added my Madder Root to my lye water, 1 teaspoon and it gave me a deep maroon color, very pretty.


Was that one tsp ppo?  I have that ebook and found it very useful for her advice on when the best option is adding the colorant to the lye water versus making an oil infusion


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## JuliaNegusuk (May 27, 2020)

I use madder root at a rate of 6g powdered root to 600g of oils.  I make a tea with the water I am intending to use for the lye, literally pour on boiling water from the kettle, leave to cool, then sieve out the powder through a fine mesh (I use a jelly bag) then add the sodium hydroxide.  I either make a little bit more to start with or just add a bit of extra water after to bring the quantity back up to the recipe as you always lose a bit of water sieving out the powder.  I used to add the madder root powder to the lye water but felt I didn't want to sieve it out of caustic lye water, it's easier and safer to sieve it out before you add the sodium hydroxide pl, you can use your fingers to squeeze out the last drops of colour.  I didn't notice any real colour difference when I changed to removing the madder root before adding the lye.  I usually achieve a strong pink similar to the pic in Atiz's post above. I have never had it go grey.  It usually comes out raspberry pink then mellows a bit with cure.

I have also put the powder in the batter at mixing stage.  It is slightly scratchy but the effect is nice.  You start with a white soap with pink specks which slowly gets pinker as it cures but the specks always stay a bit pinker than the rest of the soap.


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## Mobjack Bay (May 27, 2020)

I’ve had a jar of madder powder and olive oil in the frig for maybe 6 months now.  I shake it occasionally.  When the powder settles, the oil is the same color it was on the day I added it.  I can’t imagine that it would make pink soap.  I have tried and adopted Julia’s method and proportions for most of my madder soaps.  It’s the easiest and makes a pretty pink.


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## atiz (May 28, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I’ve had a jar of madder powder and olive oil in the frig for maybe 6 months now.  I shake it occasionally.  When the powder settles, the oil is the same color it was on the day I added it.  I can’t imagine that it would make pink soap.  I have tried and adopted Julia’s method and proportions for most of my madder soaps.  It’s the easiest and makes a pretty pink.


Hm... I think I had had mine sitting on the counter for 4-5 weeks before making the soap. I used a small jam jar with about 1 tsp of ground madder, shaking it occasionally. Then strained it out. 
But probably your method is easier, I just didn't know about it when I made the above .


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## Mobjack Bay (May 28, 2020)

atiz said:


> Hm... I think I had had mine sitting on the counter for 4-5 weeks before making the soap. I used a small jam jar with about 1 tsp of ground madder, shaking it occasionally. Then strained it out.
> But probably your method is easier, I just didn't know about it when I made the above .


If madder works as an oil infusion it makes it easier to use it in multicolor soaps.  I just assumed it wouldn’t and that’s why I went to making tinctures or putting it in ammonia.


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## atiz (May 28, 2020)

I like the tincture method better now... I didn't know about it back then. I think you'd need too much infused oil to make a good color, so it only makes sense if you're coloring the whole batch.


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## szaza (May 28, 2020)

@Mobjack Bay I have a spirulina infusion that looks completely transparant, but turns a lovely soft green when added at 20% of oils (though it takes either gelling or a week of waiting to get the color out). Curcuma infusion is also only a very pale yellow, but can turn bright orange in soap. I have no idea if this would be the same for madder, but since you have the oil, why not try it out?


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## Mobjack Bay (May 28, 2020)

szaza said:


> @Mobjack Bay I have a spirulina infusion that looks completely transparant, but turns a lovely soft green when added at 20% of oils (though it takes either gelling or a week of waiting to get the color out). Curcuma infusion is also only a very pale yellow, but can turn bright orange in soap. I have no idea if this would be the same for madder, but since you have the oil, why not try it out?


Good to know.  I will get right on it.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 16, 2020)

I guess this one becomes my first fall soap.  The pink in the ungelled soap is just what I was hoping for.  The gelled loaf, not exactly what I had in mind.  This was madder tea added to the lye.  I’ve done madder in lye before, so I have no idea why this happened.  The only thing I can think of is that the tea sat overnight because I got pulled away from making soap the first night.  but, then why is the ungelled soap the color I was expecting?  The soap has morphed a bit, from a brighter orange, but I am doubtful that it will turn pink.


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## szaza (Jun 16, 2020)

I'm sorry the soap didn't turn out as planned.. I do think the combo of gelled and ungelled soap looks really nice, could be material for a very nice ghost swirl


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 16, 2020)

szaza said:


> I'm sorry the soap didn't turn out as planned.. I do think the combo of gelled and ungelled soap looks really nice, could be material for a very nice ghost swirl


Well, it’s all the more annoying because I used EOs that I definitely didn’t want to waste.  I will get over it...


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## AliOop (Jun 16, 2020)

So sorry! Keep us posted if the color morphs into something more to your liking.


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## szaza (Jun 17, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Well, it’s all the more annoying because I used EOs that I definitely didn’t want to waste.  I will get over it...


Oh no that's really frustrating indeed!


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## curlycoat2 (Jun 17, 2020)

I had the same experience with madder tea which is why I use it in the lye.  The ungelled for me faded faster than if I gelled it and used less madder in lye to get the color I wanted.


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## AliOop (Jun 17, 2020)

curlycoat2 said:


> I had the same experience with madder tea which is why I use it in the lye.  The ungelled for me faded faster than if I gelled it and used less madder in lye to get the color I wanted.


The queen of natural colorants has spoken! I always appreciate your valuable input


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## Mobjack Bay (Jun 19, 2020)

curlycoat2 said:


> I had the same experience with madder tea which is why I use it in the lye.  The ungelled for me faded faster than if I gelled it and used less madder in lye to get the color I wanted.


Interesting, so are you saying that adding madder tea to lye does not produce the same result as adding madder powder directly to the lye?  That will send me back to check my notes because I was fairly certain that I had tried it both ways with similar results.  I was going to blame this color issue on the powder sitting in the water overnight.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 3, 2021)

The bottom layer is rose clay, the others are madder added various ways.  Methods as described above.  Soap made June 2019.


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