# 3 hours in, still pudding...



## kbuska (Jul 17, 2015)

Cold process guy here trying his hand at liquid soap (shampoo). As a first attempt I tried the following.

39 oz Olive Oil
8 oz Castor Oil
13 oz Pot Hydr
39 oz Distilled water

I combined them at 160 degrees and after 10 minutes of stick blending, I added 8 oz of glycerin. I then stick blended till a thin pudding and moved it to a slow cooker.

I've stirred it or blended it every 15 minutes for 3 hours and its not turning translucent or becoming taffy like. 

I'm not sure what I did wrong as I took the recipe (minus the glycerin) from a learn liquid soap book. I tried adding the recipe to soapmaker and I couldn't make the numbers work. Seems like I added too much lye and too much water. 

I turned off the slow cooker for tonight and hope I wake up to something more promising. 

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Ken

What it looked like when I added the batter to the slow cooker and pretty much what it looks like now. 

I also kept the temp between 160 and 170.


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## galaxyMLP (Jul 17, 2015)

Hi, 

I put your recipe into soapcalc.

That's alot of lye and alot of water! You are probably not getting thickening because you have waaay too much water (2x as much as I would use. That's a 4:1 ratio) 

You also have 13 oz of lye which comes out to about a 40% lye excess. Either you missed an oil when you posted or you are going to need to add more castor and more olive to save that batch. 

Correct amounts for oils listed:



Amounts with what you listed (I used 90% KOH b/c that would raise the amount of lye you would need vs 100% KOH.


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## kbuska (Jul 17, 2015)

Recipe from book.

Making Natural Liquid Soaps: Herbal Shower Gels, Conditioning Shampoos, Moisturizing Hand Soaps, Luxurious Bubble Baths, and more https://www.amazon.com/dp/1580172431/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## kbuska (Jul 17, 2015)

So the soapcalc indicated way to much water and too much lye. Should I cook the water out and add more oil or should I add more oil and lye to equal the amount of water. I would need to change to cooking vessel. I will post a picture of what it looks like this morning.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 17, 2015)

kbuska said:


> Recipe from book.


 
First mistake is using a recipe from a book without running it through a soap calculator.  There are many recipes in books and on the net that have mistakes in them.    

I would personally discard it but that's just me.   Or you could run the recipe through a soap calculator and adjust it until you find the appropriate amount of oils to add for that amount of lye.


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## Susie (Jul 17, 2015)

Stop.  Just stop and let's talk about this, OK?  

1.  Always, always, always run every recipe through a lye calculator for yourself!  They used to use lye excess then neutralize, which is totally unnecessary these days.  I use SBM for liquid soap calculations, as the proportion of water is higher, and the paste comes out better.

2.  You need to not add more liquid after starting your cook until you are ready to dilute.  I am not sure why you added that 8 oz glycerin, but if you wanted glycerin in it, you should have substituted it for part or all of the water at the start. 

I will run this through SBM, and post the results in a couple of minutes.  I just got up, so I need to get coffee to be able to see straight.


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## kbuska (Jul 17, 2015)

Drops indicated high Ph but I put some on my finger and not really any zap. That may be because its so diluted with water. Here are updated pictures


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## kbuska (Jul 17, 2015)

Thanks all. I know better then to not run it through, just neglected to think, I suppose. The book does call for a borax neutralizer and I added the glycerin to speed trace but yes, I should have substituted the water. 

It's a honor to live my life as warning to others.


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## Susie (Jul 17, 2015)

OK, here is the lye calculator I use for liquid soap:

http://www.summerbeemeadow.com/content/lye-calculator-and-recipe-resizer

If I enter a 3% superfat, you need to add 3 oz of CO, and 3 oz of castor oil to bring your pH into the proper range.  

However, you still have too much liquid once you added the glycerin(before then you were fine for water as I much prefer a 1:3 ratio of KOH/water).  You were fine until then, however.  I would just add the oil, continue cooking, and hope for the best.  Zap test it a couple of hours after you add the oils, though, and let us know what you get.  Note that I did not say test it with the drops.  Those are not a good test for excess lye.

You can only add glycerin to speed trace when you substitute it for water at the beginning.  Not after.  And, by the way, if you peruse through the forum, you will find LOTS of folks who did much like you did.  Don't feel alone.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 17, 2015)

Hey, we've all made mistakes and are none the worse for it.  It's a learning thing for sure.   Also, for LS you don't need it to be lye heavy and then neutralize it.   There are several threads (with recipes) on LS that you just make and dilute.  No need to neutralize.


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## commoncenz (Jul 17, 2015)

With all the threads about LS popping up recently, I'm beginning to think that I am neglecting my education as a soaper. I think I will research LS over the next couple of months and maybe try to make some. So, in that regards, thank you for sharing Kbuska. This forum is a valuable resource for not only the person seeking help, but for those who are "just browsing" and see a topic that catches their fancy. If we don't share our mistakes and seek guidance, someone else may miss out on an opportunity to learn. So, again, thank you for sharing.


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## Susie (Jul 17, 2015)

Here is where I would start if you are looking to learn to make liquid soap:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

I know it is huge, but it contains invaluable information and wonderful discussion that you REALLY need!

And, yep, most of us have make huge glorious messes at one time or another.  People learn more from "what not to do" posts than the others.  I have my share on here also.  We all learn from one another.  That is the beauty of this forum.


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## galaxyMLP (Jul 17, 2015)

Woo, thank you Susie! I was going to re-calculate w/ castor and olive. Yes, ditto to what everyone said.


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## Dahila (Jul 17, 2015)

kbuska said:
			
		

> Drops indicated high Ph but I put some on my finger and not really any  zap.


you can put your whole hand into soap and not to get zapped.  Zap checking is wetting your finger put into soap and touch gently with your tongue )


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## kbuska (Jul 17, 2015)

commoncenz said:


> With all the threads about LS popping up recently, I'm beginning to think that I am neglecting my education as a soaper. I think I will research LS over the next couple of months and maybe try to make some. So, in that regards, thank you for sharing Kbuska. This forum is a valuable resource for not only the person seeking help, but for those who are "just browsing" and see a topic that catches their fancy. If we don't share our mistakes and seek guidance, someone else may miss out on an opportunity to learn. So, again, thank you for sharing.



Thanks, I have made cold process soap since 2011 (I used to frequent the board quite a bit) but am a bit rusty. LS is foreign to me. I guess I should toss the book and read the forum. 

-Ken


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## galaxyMLP (Jul 17, 2015)

And this soap WILL zap so I would not advise testing until you neutralize with more oil!


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## kbuska (Jul 17, 2015)

Dahila said:


> you can put your whole hand into soap and not to get zapped.  Zap checking is wetting your finger put into soap and touch gently with your tongue )



I touched it to my tongue. sorry if I left that part out.


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## galaxyMLP (Jul 17, 2015)

Oh wow, and it didn't zap? very interesting. You are probably right then, with all of that excess liquid it must just be quite dilute. Hmm.


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## Susie (Jul 17, 2015)

The sad thing is that I knew exactly which book you used when you posted the recipe originally.  I tried that one also.  Then I learned to use that calculator, and resized and learned to not use lye excess.  I did not care much for that recipe as a shampoo(even when fixed), but it makes a better soap than shampoo, so all is not lost.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 17, 2015)

The problem with "that book" and many recipes from that time, is that it was standard to make liquid soaps with lye excess, and then go through fiddly processes to neutralize the soap, relying on phenopthelein (which is not reliable either for soap making). I dont even want to get into the whole alcohol and plastic with bungies thing... 
Things have changed a LOT since then, and the easy ways to make safe liquid soap like you see in this forum simply don't seem to be common knowledge yet.

Follow Susies advice, you'll be fine  and never ever ever follow a recipe without running it through a lye calculator again!


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## DeeAnna (Jul 17, 2015)

I suspect you're following a recipe from Catherine Failor's liquid soap making book??? Your pic kinda looks like that might be the case. If so, the method she uses and the method most of us use are quite different.

Failor's recipes use these general principles:
Use an excess of lye to make the soap. 
After saponification is done, neutralize the excess lye with borax or citric acid. 

Disadvantages to the Failor method -- 
Very, very easy to over neutralize the soap, especially if using citric acid and especially for an inexperienced soaper.
Some people prefer to not use borax in their products due to concerns about its safety. In some countries borax is outright illegal to use. 
Little or no superfat can be objectionable to some. 
Method can be time consuming.

The general method recommended by Susie, Irish Lass, and others here on SMF:
Use a modest superfat -- most say 3% or less -- to design the recipe.
Use no more than 3 parts of water-soluble liquids (water, glycerin, etc.) to 1 part KOH.
Soap can be made with a cold process method rather than having to cook for hours.

Disadvantages to this method -- 
Superfat that is higher than about 3% (some say 5%) can separate out and float on top of the finished diluted liquid soap. 
Knowing your KOH purity is critical to ensure your finished liquid soap has not too much superfat and no excess lye. If you're using KOH that's 90% pure, then use Soapcalc set to 90% KOH purity. If you're using KOH that's about 95% pure, then use Summerbeemeadow or Brambleberry's calc -- these calcs are based on about 95% purity.


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## Susie (Jul 17, 2015)

Yep, what DeeAnna said!  But I still like 3 parts water/glycerin to 1 part KOH for my paste.


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## kbuska (Jul 18, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your thoughts. I'm going to toss it. I added 4 oz of Olive Oil and 3 oz of Castor oil and heated it back up again. Well then I fell asleep and when I woke up this morning, most of it was on my counter and floor. YAY! Going to spend some time reading through the forum here about LS and perhaps make a few Cold Process batches to get my mojo back.

-Ken


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## TeresaT (Jul 18, 2015)

I'll bet you've got the cleanest floors and counters in town!  (Been there, done that!)


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## DeeAnna (Jul 18, 2015)

Oh, gosh, I've done much the same thing. Got a super clean oven out of the deal. :eh: Welcome to the cleanest-kitchen-in-town club!


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## Susie (Jul 18, 2015)

Well, how about CP liquid soap?  Easy peasy after all of that...

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852&highlight=cold+process+liquid+soap


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## kbuska (Jul 28, 2015)

2nd attempt, cold process liquid soap. BB lab color, black rasp vanilla. Im going to let it rest and I want to thicken it. It's the consistency of thin dish soap.


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## kbuska (Jul 28, 2015)

Thanks everyone!


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