# Liquid Soap Colorant & Scent ?



## BettyW (Nov 30, 2020)

I have made some liquid soap with the following …..

Tahitian Vanilla FO
Orange EO
Red Gel Colorant
Yellow Liquid Colorant

When I poured the liquid soap into the container then next day the colorant & scent has separated at the bottom.  I have not used the Poly 20 or 80.  Is there anything else I could use to fix this separation?


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 30, 2020)

BettyW said:


> I have not used the Poly 20 or 80.  Is there anything else I could use to fix this separation?


Poly 20 or 80 is all there is to prevent separation as far as I know. It's not too late to add it.
*Elements Bath & Body* in Pueblo, CO carries it. Good company to do business with. I usually get my order the next day or two if I order early in the day.
TIP: It's best to warm the LS to _140°F_ or so when adding scent.

I'm wondering about your Vanilla EO??? If you don't mind my asking, where did you purchase it?
I'm also wondering about the Red Gel Colorant. I've never had a colorant separate. Hmmm.


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## AliOop (Nov 30, 2020)

I was wondering the same thing. I see so-called "vanilla EO" for sale on Amazon all the time, but there is no such thing, to my knowledge. Wouldn't it be a vanilla absolute at best?


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## BettyW (Nov 30, 2020)

There is no way to add it after I mix the EO & colorants?


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## BettyW (Nov 30, 2020)

It is Tahitian Vanilla Frager


Zany_in_CO said:


> Poly 20 or 80 is all there is to prevent separation as far as I know. It's not too late to add it.
> *Elements Bath & Body* in Pueblo, CO carries it. Good company to do business with. I usually get my order the next day or two if I order early in the day.
> TIP: It's best to warm the LS to _140°F_ or so when adding scent.
> 
> ...



Tahitian Vanilla FO (Mile High Soap)
Red Colorant Gel (Soap Colorant-Hobby Lobby)
Yellow Colorant Soap Colorant-Hobby Lobby)


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## AliOop (Nov 30, 2020)

Sorry, I thought you had vanilla EO, not FO. Per @Zany_in_CO yes, you can add the poly now.


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## BettyW (Nov 30, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Sorry, I thought you had vanilla EO, not FO. Per @Zany_in_CO yes, you can add the poly now.



I corrected it to say ....
Tahitian Vanilla FO

It also has 5 Fold Orange EO.


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## AliOop (Nov 30, 2020)

Bet it smells great!


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## BettyW (Nov 30, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Bet it smells great!



I really like the smell.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 1, 2020)

BettyW said:


> Tahitian Vanilla FO (Mile High Soap)
> Red Colorant Gel (Soap Colorant-Hobby Lobby)
> Yellow Colorant Soap Colorant-Hobby Lobby)


Thanks for the additional information. For the colorants, I would take the separated LS to Hobby Lobby and show them what happened. My guess is, their soap colorants are made for Melt & Pour soap, not for lye-based bar soap or LS, and that's why they separated out. Not sure. But your supplier should know. If you don't want to use food coloring to color your LS, I believe Elements Bath & Body has liquid colorants for liquid soap. 

As for the FO/EO combo, add 3-4 times solubizer (poly 20 or 80) to 1 part fragrance. Stir gently for one full minute and then allow to rest for at least an hour before deciding to add more. In the future, add the amount of solubizer to a bit of water; stir to fully incoporate; add EO/FO; stir. Allow to rest to be sure no oil rises to the top.

ETA:


BettyW said:


> ... the colorant & scent has separated at the bottom.


It just occurred to me that only the colorant settled to the bottom because when FOs & EOs separate out, they rise to the top. So, maybe it would be best to siphon out the LS with a baster or gravy boat before doing anything else. The scent may be just fine. Not all fragrances require the addition of a solubizer. More often than not, you don't need it.

HTH (Hope This Helps!)


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## DeeAnna (Dec 1, 2020)

_"...For the colorants, I would take the separated LS to Hobby Lobby and show them what happened...."_

I would imagine the vast majority of Hobby Lobby sales people would not have a clue about how to respond to an inquiry like this. I mean, hey, it's not like many of them are going to be knowledgeable soap makers. Their website is probably a more useful resource.

Are either of these the colorant(s) you used? If so, they're labeled for use only in M&P.









						Copper, Yellow & Red Glycerin Soap Color | Hobby Lobby | 1460120
					

Get Copper, Yellow & Red Glycerin Soap Color online or find other Copper, Yellow & Red products from HobbyLobby.com




					www.hobbylobby.com
				












						Soap Dye | Hobby Lobby
					

Get Soap Dye online or find other Color products from HobbyLobby.com




					www.hobbylobby.com


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## BettyW (Dec 1, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...For the colorants, I would take the separated LS to Hobby Lobby and show them what happened...."_
> 
> I would imagine the vast majority of Hobby Lobby sales people would not have a clue about how to respond to an inquiry like this. I mean, hey, it's not like many of them are going to be knowledgeable soap makers. Their website is probably a more useful resource.
> 
> ...



I will pull out cardboard they were in.


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## BettyW (Dec 1, 2020)

BettyW said:


> I will pull out cardboard they were in.



Cardboard just says Colorant for Soap.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 2, 2020)

Did you read the descriptions in *@DeeAnna* 's post #11? Both describe the colorants for  _*"your melt and pour soap".    *_


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## BettyW (Dec 2, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Did you read the descriptions in *@DeeAnna* 's post #11? Both describe the colorants for  _*"your melt and pour soap".   *_



Yes


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 2, 2020)

BettyW said:


> Yes


So, what do you think? Were your colorants intended for MP or not? What are you planning on doing next?


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## BettyW (Dec 2, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...For the colorants, I would take the separated LS to Hobby Lobby and show them what happened...."_
> 
> I would imagine the vast majority of Hobby Lobby sales people would not have a clue about how to respond to an inquiry like this. I mean, hey, it's not like many of them are going to be knowledgeable soap makers. Their website is probably a more useful resource.
> 
> ...



Had to go dig this out of trash.


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## BettyW (Dec 2, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> So, what do you think? Were your colorants intended for MP or not? What are you planning on doing next?



I am guessing it was for melt & pour which I didn't realize it made a difference.


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## BettyW (Dec 2, 2020)

BettyW said:


> I am guessing it was for melt & pour which I didn't realize it made a difference.



This liquid soap is for our family.


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## BettyW (Dec 2, 2020)

Here is picture of colorant at bottom of liquid soap.
I have order in Poly 80 to see if it helps.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 10, 2020)

In your photo, I see the material on top is opaque white -- is that the soap? If so, do you know whether the soap supposed to be opaque white like this? 

You didn't say anything about the soap itself in this thread, and it would be good to know about that. I have some vague ideas about the problem, but need to know more.


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## BettyW (Dec 10, 2020)

Yes it is opaque.
I made the Hogwash recipe by Zany (50% Palm Kernal Flakes & 50% lard - 0% superfat).


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## DeeAnna (Dec 10, 2020)

I haven't looked up her Hog Wash recipe to confirm, but I know Zany prefers to use recipes that require neutralization, so I'm assuming the Hog Wash recipe calls for neutralization. It is very easy, especially for beginners, to over-neutralize liquid soap.

I make a liquid soap from lard and it's also milky, but this soap lets a bit of light pass through -- it is not completely opaque like frosting. There can be a small layer of insoluble soap that eventually floats on top of this type of soap, but I stress this should be a thin layer -- under 1/8" thick. I would expect a palm-lard liquid soap to appear similar to my all-lard LS.

If you over-neutralize liquid soap, the soap will decompose and form a dead white, opaque layer of fatty acids. This layer floats on top of any actual soap. The soap layer at the bottom will be clear to milky-translucent depending on the recipe.

If your soap has been over-neutralized, I'm not surprised that a glycerin-based colorant won't mix with what you think is the soap. If what I think is wrong with your soap is truly the case, the only soap that you have is the thin white layer at the bottom -- and yes the colorant you added is mixed with this small bit of soap. The white top layer is fatty acids. A glycerin based colorant will be insoluble in this layer.

You can confirm this is the situation by adding some dry KOH to a sample of the white top layer. Measure, say, a sample of 100 grams of the white top layer into a clear glass jar and add 3-5 grams of dry KOH. After stirring the KOH into the mixture until you can't feel any flakes on the bottom. The mixture may warm slightly and may get quite a bit thicker after you stir in the KOH. Let the sample sit for some hours to overnight. After this time passes, see if this material begins to separate into a more translucent lower layer and a (hopefully) thinner top layer.

If the first dose doesn't make much of a change, mix in a second 3-5 gram dose of KOH to the sample and repeat the waiting time. If there isn't much change after the second dose, my theory is probably wrong. If that is the case, I give up -- I don't know what the problem is with this soap. If there is a definite change in the mixture with the addition of KOH, then the soap has been over neutralized.

Caution -- After you're done, discard the sample down the drain with plenty of water. It is not going to be skin safe, so do not use it on your skin.


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## BettyW (Dec 10, 2020)

Yes it is neutriailized with borax.

I am going to give your suggestion a try.

Thank you.


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## linne1gi (Dec 10, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> I haven't looked up her Hog Wash recipe to confirm, but I know Zany prefers to use recipes that require neutralization, so I'm assuming the Hog Wash recipe calls for neutralization. It is very easy, especially for beginners, to over-neutralize liquid soap.
> 
> I make a liquid soap from lard and it's also milky, but this soap lets a bit of light pass through -- it is not completely opaque like frosting. There can be a small layer of insoluble soap that eventually floats on top of this type of soap, but I stress this should be a thin layer -- under 1/8" thick. I would expect a palm-lard liquid soap to appear similar to my all-lard LS.
> 
> ...


A soaper in a facebook group gave me some good advice years ago.  She suggested, (when you have a separated liquid soap with fat floating on the top) to make up a small amount of a solution of KOH and water 50/50 and add it teaspoon full at a time to your liquid soap.  (I mean to say that this may work better than adding  the dry KOH, because it, the liquid KOH and water, will react better with the fatty acids, than the dry).  What do you think?


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## BettyW (Dec 10, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> A soaper in a facebook group gave me some good advice years ago.  She suggested, (when you have a separated liquid soap with fat floating on the top) to make up a small amount of a solution of KOH and water 50/50 and add it teaspoon full at a time to your liquid soap.  (I mean to say that this may work better than adding  the dry KOH, because it, the liquid KOH and water, will react better with the fatty acids, than the dry).  What do you think?



I will give that a try also.

Thank you.


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## linne1gi (Dec 10, 2020)

BettyW said:


> I will give that a try also.
> 
> Thank you.


You're welcome.  Let us know how it works.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 10, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> A soaper in a facebook group gave me some good advice years ago.  She suggested, (when you have a separated liquid soap with fat floating on the top) to make up a small amount of a solution of KOH and water 50/50 and add it teaspoon full at a time to your liquid soap.  (I mean to say that this may work better than adding  the dry KOH, because it, the liquid KOH and water, will react better with the fatty acids, than the dry).  What do you think?



I agree your method is a good way to fix the soap if you know the problem is excess superfat. You don't want to add too much KOH to make the soap lye heavy, so adding KOH cautiously as you describe is a smart way to go.

At the moment, we don't know what the problem is with the OP's soap. Adding a moderate excess of dry KOH to a sample is my "quick 'n dirty" way to learn if the problem is indeed excess superfat, but it _will _make the soap lye heavy. That's why a person would want to do this test only using a sample of the soap.

If excess superfat is indeed the problem, then your method is the best way to fix the whole batch. But it's a slow fix ... and we don't know at this point if this solution is appropriate for the problem.


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## linne1gi (Dec 10, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> I agree your method is a good way to fix the soap if you know the problem is excess superfat. You don't want to add too much KOH to make the soap lye heavy, so adding KOH cautiously as you describe is a smart way to go.
> 
> At the moment, we don't know what the problem is with the OP's soap. Adding a moderate excess of dry KOH to a sample is my "quick 'n dirty" way to learn if the problem is indeed excess superfat, but it _will _make the soap lye heavy. That's why a person would want to do this test only using a sample of the soap.
> 
> If excess superfat is indeed the problem, then your method is the best way to fix the whole batch. But it's a slow fix ... and we don't know at this point if this solution is appropriate for the problem.


Thank you for your answer.


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## BettyW (Dec 10, 2020)

I made the liquid soap with 0% Superfat. 

Experiment #1
I just took 100 grams of liquid soap and added 5 grams of KOH lye dry in a small glass jar.  Swirling the mixture around to dissolve it.  Within a couple of minutes it went from looking like frosting to more of a gel looking soap.  Going to let it sit for 8 hours or over night to see what happens.

Experiement #2
100 grams liquid soap 
5 grams KOH lye
5 grams distilled water
Mixed water and lye up.  Then added all of it to liquid soap.  
This liquid soap turned to a gel. Will let it set 8 hours or over night.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 10, 2020)

The superfat percentage you type into the recipe calculator isn't necessarily the real superfat in the finished real-life soap. Many other factors can affect the percentage of free fat or free fatty acids. 

The purity of the KOH is a big factor. If you overstate or understate the KOH purity when calculating a recipe, you can easily end up with a lye heavy or fat heavy soap. 

Also the use of additives that can cause the soap to decompose - citric acid and borax being two common examples. 

It's telling that the soap made such a quick turn-around from "white frosting" to a gel in response to adding KOH.


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## BettyW (Dec 10, 2020)

Yes. 
Thank you so much everyone for explaining how to fix this soap. 
I have learned so very much!!


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## linne1gi (Dec 10, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> The superfat percentage you type into the recipe calculator isn't necessarily the real superfat in the finished real-life soap. Many other factors can affect the percentage of free fat or free fatty acids.
> 
> The purity of the KOH is a big factor. If you overstate or understate the KOH purity when calculating a recipe, you can easily end up with a lye heavy or fat heavy soap.
> 
> ...


Yes, seems to me like that was a layer of fat.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 10, 2020)

@linne1gi -- I wanted to respond to this -- "..._this may work better than adding  the dry KOH, because it, the liquid KOH and water, will react better with the fatty acids, than the dry_..."

Adding small amounts of dry KOH to liquid soap actually works surprisingly well. There's a lot of water already in diluted soap, so the solid alkali dissolves quickly and without a lot of fuss. If you think about it -- typically diluted liquid soap contains 40% water or more -- so there's already plenty of water in the diluted soap to dissolve the dry KOH quickly.

I don't normally advise beginners to add solid alkali to their liquid soap to deal with superfat separation, but I avoid giving this advice mostly because it is a little harder to measure dry KOH as accurately and easily as a KOH solution. But I've done it often enough to know it's not difficult if you have a decent scale and a bit of patience.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 11, 2020)

BettyW said:


> Yes it is neutriailized with borax.


Hmmm. Then that's not my Hog Wash recipe. I don't use Borax. If I were to use Borax to neutralize, the recommendation is to make up a *33% Borax solution* first and add it while it is still warm. If left to cool, the Borax particulates out and settles to the bottom -- you then need to chip it out with a knife or something similar. Don't ask me how I know.  *Use rate:* 0.75 oz. per pound of paste.



BettyW said:


> I have learned so very much!!



Kudos to *@DeeAnna* for figuring this out. To be honest, I didn't know what to make of the clear soap at the bottom in that picture you posted. It was a first for me. I'm learning here too!


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## BettyW (Dec 11, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Hmmm. Then that's not my Hog Wash recipe. I don't use Borax. If I were to use Borax to neutralize, the recommendation is to make up a *33% Borax solution* first and add it while it is still warm. If left to cool, the Borax particulates out and settles to the bottom -- you then need to chip it out with a knife or something similar. Don't ask me how I know.  *Use rate:* 0.75 oz. per pound of paste.
> 
> Kudos to *@DeeAnna* for figuring this out. To be honest, I didn't know what to make of the clear soap at the bottom in that picture you posted. It was a first for me. I'm learning here too!



Zany 
The recipe I used was from your pdf attached in Help Something is Wrong My Liquid Soap? #5
Zany's Friday Night Special/Hog Wash Hair & Body Shampoo which has Borax in the recipe.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 11, 2020)

Now I remember! I was surprised when you started this new thread instead of continuing with the old thread. It would have been better if you had continued with the original thread because that is where your recipe is. I remember thinking that at the time but couldn't remember the name of the previous thread. Sheesh.

Go here to read my comments:
*Help Something is Wrong my Liquid Soap?*

So I went there and now it seems there are a few more items germain to this discussion.
1) Most likely you used Spectrum *Palm* Oil -- as far as I know, that brand doesn't make PKO.
2) The Palm Oil was 7 years old.
3) You used dual lye.
4) You stick blended but, as far as I can tell, didn't bring the batch to hard trace. Correct?

*ETA:* The Borax in my Hog Wash recipe was added to the dilution water as a water softener to speed up dilution, at a rate of 2 tsp. for a 32 oz. batch. If I understand correctly, your recipe is a 22 oz batch. So how much Borax did you add?


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## BettyW (Dec 12, 2020)

Batch #1 Hot Processed
1. Thought Spectrum Palm Oil was the same as Palm Kernel Oil.
2. Yes 7 yrs old.
3. Yes used dual lye which made it a giant slimmy rubber blob.
4. Stick blended. Hard trace-thick chunky mash potatoes. Let sit overnight. After zap test was ok (next day) I then added water to dilute it.
Yes this first batch was 22 oz. 
No Polysorbate 80

Batch #2 Hot Processed
16 oz. Palm Kernel Flakes
16 oz. Lard
21 oz. Distilled Water
7 oz. KOH Lye
96 oz. Distilled Water (Boiling)
2 tsp. Borax
Polysorbate 80
Colorant & Scent

To save batch #1
I melted batch #1 and slowly added small amounts to batch #2 until I liked thickness.
Letting it sit over night each time & each time there was what looked like colorant settling at bottom of jar. I had to wait for Polysorbate 80 to arrive in the mail before I could add it in.  Once I added it in this corrected the colorant settling at bottom of jar.

The soap was amazing but looked like frosting so to correct that I tested 100 grams of soap with 3 grams of KOH lye. It looked like it was going to be fine after letting it set overnight to check for problems. Next day the soap was still a gel and didn't have the frosting look to it. Then I added enough KOH to fix entire batch (batch #1 & #2 combined).

Really this liquid soap.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 12, 2020)

BettyW said:


> Really this liquid soap.


Thanks for that explanation, Betty.  You did good considering what you had to work with. I think at this point I would do nothing more. Just sequester it for a good month or more to see how it develops over time. Soap has a way of doing it's own thing if you get out of its way. 

As *@DeeAnna* said, lard makes opaque LS. In my experience, it clears at 6 months or so, opaque at the bottom; clear at the top.

ETA: Here's the gallon batch of Lard & PKO I made 9/5/20


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## BettyW (Dec 12, 2020)

I am happy with it for now.  It feels great on my hands! Feels gentle and conditioning. Lathers well in former bottle. Can't handle washing my hands with soap from store as it burns so.

Thank you for your help everyone.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 12, 2020)

BettyW said:


> Thank you for your help everyone.


You're welcome.


BettyW said:


> I am happy with it for now.  It feels great on my hands! Feels gentle and conditioning. Lathers well in former bottle. Can't handle washing my hands with soap from store as it burns so.


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