# Gel Phase???



## SoapBubbles (Jan 1, 2013)

I am uncertain what gel phase is for. I understand that gel phase usually occurs within the first 15 minutes but I do not fully understand if it occurs in _every_ batch of soap you make or if it occurs only when certain oils and/or procedures are performed.

Some questions that came to mind when hearing about gel phase were:
1.) What exactly is gel phase and what is its purpose in soap making?
2.) Is gel phase necessary for each batch of soap made in order to be considered soap?
3.) If gel phase does not occur, does that mean the batch of soap is considered "bad"?
4.) Do certain oils make the gel phase more likely to occur?

I appreciate any clarification. 

Learning Slowly,
Lea Ann


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## 2lilboots (Jan 1, 2013)

I have had a soap that didn't gel until 6 hours after I put it in my mold.


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## danahuff (Jan 1, 2013)

Hi Lea Ann.

Gel phase is a point at which soap is undergoing the saponification process and becomes a sort of warm to hot transparent gel, then slowly becomes opaque and more solid, then cools off. If soap goes through gel phase, it tend to saponify faster.

Gel phase is not necessary, and some soapers actively try to prevent it by putting soap in the fridge or freezer. It does not prevent the soap from saponifying eventually. All it does is slow the process down. Some people like it to move more slowly because they like the look and feel of soaps that have not gelled. It's a personal preference.

So is definitely not considered bad if it didn't gel. 

I don't know that certain oils make a difference. Some oils cause soap to reach trace faster, but I don't know that any of them necessarily make gel more likely to occur. At that point, it seems that the oils and lye are doing their work.


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## chicklet (Jan 1, 2013)

I put all my milk soaps (including buttermilk and yogurt) into the freezer to prevent them from gelling. I like the non-gelled look plus I'm a little scared of a soap volcano in the mold from the heat generated as the lye reacts with the sugar in the milk, but lots of people gel their milk soaps and have no problems. Just experiment and see what you like best.


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## Hausfrau007 (Jan 1, 2013)

I've done both. I've forced gel by insulating my soaps after pouring them into the molds by wrapping them in a towel-lined cooler and leaving it for 24 hours. And I've suppressed gel by putting the molds into the fridge right after the pour. Experimenting with both, I find I much like my ungelled soaps, so now that I know a little more about soaping, I avoid gel whenever I can.

Sometimes, when you use single bar molds, for example, gel won't happen, because your molds are too small to retain any heat. Ungelled soaps take about two or three weeks longer to cure (disadvantage), but whether you gel your soaps is just a personal preference.

Some people find that colors are truer after gelling, although I haven't found that to be the case. I only use natural additives and colorants, and my recent alkanet dye has turned out to be a beautiful, deep purple.


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## 2lilboots (Jan 1, 2013)

If you put TD in soaps for a nice white coloring it looks better if it isn't gelled.


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## Hazel (Jan 1, 2013)

SoapBubbles - 

I wanted to add a little clarification to your comment about the gel phase usually occurring in 15 minutes. Gelling may start to occur in 15 minutes depending on the temps you combine the oils and lye. But it is a phase - meaning it can take hours to heat up enough to make the entire soap become gelatinous. It's been said it takes 24 to 48 hours for the oils and lye to be converted to soap. Generally, my gelled batches have saponified in 24 hours or less. Non-gelled batches have needed 3 to 6 days to fully saponify - zap free! :grin:

Sometimes, I get partial gel when gelling or not gelling. The partial gel occurs when not enough heat is produced to make the loaf gelatinous to the outside of the loaf so I end up with a more translucent appearing section in the middle of the loaf and the edges are opaque. Sometime when I'm trying to prevent gel by setting the loaf in the frig, I'll get partial gel either because of additives I've used or because a fragrance oil will cause an exothermic reaction. 

judymoody posted a great picture of partial gel. http://www.soapmakingforum.com/f22/my-first-partial-gel-25839/

As chiklet already mentioned, milk products can cause more heat because of the sugar content. Other sugary additives which can cause overheating are honey, beer and wine.

As for fragrance oils, I can't remember now which ones soaped hot. The Soap Scent Review Board is a great reference for giving information about FOs in soap. However, you have to use a paid email addy to join. http://soapscentreview.obisoap.ca/

There is also a Fragrance Oils Chart which was created by a SMF member. It's really nice because it's very easy to browse through to look at specific fragrances. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UVFTXY5M2o4MVRMZm4wdFE&authkey=CMTEtswL#gid=0

eta: I forgot to mention salt bar batches. They gel really quickly and need to be cut while they're still warm; otherwise, they're almost impossible to cut and they crumble. I generally have to cut mine in a couple of hours after I've poured them in a mold. This is a bit of a pain so I switched to using individual cavity molds so I don't have to worry about cutting.


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## SoapBubbles (Jan 1, 2013)

Thank you! I appreciate everyone's help in explaining the gel phase. I also appreciate the picture (by judymoody) that shows a partial gel because I was wondering what it looked like. My bookmarks now have the Fragrance Oils Chart saved for quick reference. I was about to ask about fragrance oils and gel phase ... and surprise! You guys helped with that question before I even needed to post it.

I do have one more question that just came to mind. Would putting the soap mixture into small individual bar shaped molds and then putting them in the refrigerator help stop the gel phase more so than say ... putting the soap into a 1# loaf mold? Also does the rate at which trace occurs have an effect on if the gel phase happens or not? For instance, does a long trace time mean the gel phase is less likely or more likely to happen?

I hope to continue learning more about the CP soap making process before jumping in and making my first batch.


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## Hausfrau007 (Jan 1, 2013)

SoapBubbles said:


> 1. Would putting the soap mixture into small individual bar shaped molds and then putting them in the refrigerator help stop the gel phase more so than say ... putting the soap into a 1# loaf mold?
> 
> 2. Also does the rate at which trace occurs have an effect on if the gel phase happens or not? For instance, does a long trace time mean the gel phase is less likely or more likely to happen?



1. not really -- a one-inch high slab wouldn't reach gel any more than soap poured into individual molds. In order for soap to gel, you probably have to use some sort of a log mold and insulate. An example of a cheap log mold would be a Pringles can or a one-litre cardboard milk container. Insulate those, and gel is sure to occur.

2. nope


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## Hazel (Jan 1, 2013)

SoapBubbles said:


> I do have one more question that just came to mind. Would putting the soap mixture into small individual bar shaped molds and then putting them in the refrigerator help stop the gel phase more so than say ... putting the soap into a 1# loaf mold?
> 
> _I've noticed a 1" slab mold can reach the gel phase better than individual molds which I believe is because of the larger amount of soap. (More soap to help with holding heat.) However, without a little help from an alternate heating source, I've noticed I get partial gel with the outer edges being opaque. This is why I prefer using a slab for non-gelled batches.
> 
> ...



When you combine the oils and lye at a higher temp (example 120 F/ 50 C), it certainly helps to accelerate gelling. The downside is combining at higher temps means you can reach trace more quickly but it may not give you a lot of time to color and swirl.

I don't know if you've seen Soap Queen's Hot Process series on her blog. She explains the difference between CPHP, CPOP and HPOP. You'd probably find it helpful if you haven't already read it.

Here's a link to one of the tutorials which explains in better detail what I was talking about when I mentioned putting the soap in the oven. I don't quite do it the way she mentions because I don't like to keep my oven on while the soap is in it. But again, this is just personal preference since I know several members have mentioned they leave the oven on for a period of time.

http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/cold-process-soap/hot-process-series-cpop-swirls/

I hope I haven't confused you with my explanation.


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## Fran2 (Jan 1, 2013)

*2-3 weeks more cure time for ungelled soap?*



Hausfrau007 said:


> I've done both. I've forced gel by insulating my soaps after pouring them into the molds by wrapping them in a towel-lined cooler and leaving it for 24 hours. And I've suppressed gel by putting the molds into the fridge right after the pour. Experimenting with both, I find I much like my ungelled soaps, so now that I know a little more about soaping, I avoid gel whenever I can.
> 
> Sometimes, when you use single bar molds, for example, gel won't happen, because your molds are too small to retain any heat. Ungelled soaps take about two or three weeks longer to cure (disadvantage), but whether you gel your soaps is just a personal preference.
> 
> Some people find that colors are truer after gelling, although I haven't found that to be the case. I only use natural additives and colorants, and my recent alkanet dye has turned out to be a beautiful, deep purple.



I personally don't like the look of gel soaps, but I am relatively new at this anyway.

Is this correct that without gelling the soap will take 2-3 longer to cure?   This I did not know, that puts a damper on things.


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## Hausfrau007 (Jan 1, 2013)

Yeah, that's a huge negative. It takes a couple of weeks longer to cure, bummer. But, for me, the compromise is worth it, because of the yummy ice cream look my soaps retain.


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## hellogorgeous (Jan 1, 2013)

How do you guys prevent the gel process?? I've tried many many times - I've lost count. I've soaped at lower temps, and stuck it in the fridge. It still gels 100% all the time - and I prefer non-gelled, so it bugs the heck out of me. My basic soap recipe is olive oil, coconut oil, shea butter, castor oil, palm oil. Not complicated at all ...


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## Fran2 (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't know what the more experienced  do but I just don't insulate.    I make a soap with English rose fragrance from BB and the first few times I did not insulate.  This last time I gelled and hated it.  It looks almost see through.


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## Relle (Jan 2, 2013)

Lea Ann - if you need some answers to your questions and nobody is around, the search engine at the top of the page left hand side can help you. Type in what you need to know and lots of posts will come up to read.:smile:


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## Hausfrau007 (Jan 2, 2013)

hellogorgeous said:


> How do you guys prevent the gel process?? I've tried many many times - I've lost count. I've soaped at lower temps, and stuck it in the fridge. It still gels 100% all the time - and I prefer non-gelled, so it bugs the heck out of me. My basic soap recipe is olive oil, coconut oil, shea butter, castor oil, palm oil. Not complicated at all ...



Really! I've never had trouble avoiding gel, no matter what temp I soap at. In the winter, I pop my molds in the garage, in the summer, I make some space in the fridge. That's usually all it takes. Do you use additives like honey or any other sugars? Milk soaps are supposed to heat up easier, but I'm mostly making GM soap, and never had trouble with it heating.


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## 2lilboots (Jan 2, 2013)

Hausfrau007 said:


> Really! I've never had trouble avoiding gel, no matter what temp I soap at. In the winter, I pop my molds in the garage, in the summer, I make some space in the fridge. That's usually all it takes. Do you use additives like honey or any other sugars? Milk soaps are supposed to heat up easier, but I'm mostly making GM soap, and never had trouble with it heating.


 

.....that is because you are just that good!  Your soaps know better than to gel, they are scared to gel.  

My first 2 batches I even made gelled and it scared the living crap outta me.  Then I started making cupcake soaps, I had one batch gel, and the rest didn't.  Mainly because I kept them uncovered on my kitchen counter.  It is really iffy with my silicone molds, sometimes they gel, sometimes they don't.  But everything that goes in that wooden mold gels.  EVERYTHING!  Whether I want it to gel or not.


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## Hausfrau007 (Jan 2, 2013)

2lilboots said:


> .....that is because you are just that good!  Your soaps know better than to gel, they are scared to gel.



You know, I think you may be on to something, lol. You've seen my Mister-made wood molds, right? I use them for 90% of my soaps, and if I don't want them to gel, they don't! I give them a stern look, put them out in the garage, and they stay nice and cool and behave themselves. Could be they're scared in the dark garage....


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## danahuff (Jan 2, 2013)

Hausfrau, you just made me realize something. I have trouble preventing gel, so I have traditionally just gone with it, but I live in Massachusetts, and it's winter. I should just put the freaking things outside. :crazy:

Summer will be a different story.

(I cannot believe I never thought of that.)


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## hellogorgeous (Jan 2, 2013)

hmmmm maybe it's suz I only use my wooden molds?? I have small 1lb silicon, but hate using them. I wonder what would happen if I stuck my mold in the freezer before pouring and then put it back once poured? Might have to try it.


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## Hazel (Jan 2, 2013)

hellogorgeous said:


> How do you guys prevent the gel process?? I've tried many many times - I've lost count. I've soaped at lower temps, and stuck it in the fridge. It still gels 100% all the time - and I prefer non-gelled, so it bugs the heck out of me. My basic soap recipe is olive oil, coconut oil, shea butter, castor oil, palm oil. Not complicated at all ...



Are you using fragrance oils? I've had a few batches which still started to gel while in the frig. I looked up the info on the FOs and sure enough, people had posted comments about them heating up in the soap. 

What kind of mold are you using? Wood molds hold heat in better than silicone. Have you tried putting your mold in the freezer and then taking it out when you need to pour the batch? I've done this and didn't get a partial gel. But to be fair, it might not have gelled even if the mold had been room temp.

eta: Whoops! I didn't see your comment about the wooden mold and putting it in a freezer. That's what I get for jumping in to reply to a post _*before *_I read the rest of the thread.


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## hoaper (Oct 17, 2013)

*Gel/saponifiction*



danahuff said:


> Hi Lea Ann.
> 
> Gel phase is a point at which soap is undergoing the saponification process and becomes a sort of warm to hot transparent gel, then slowly becomes opaque and more solid, then cools off. If soap goes through gel phase, it tend to saponify faster.
> 
> ...



Hi Folks

I have just started making soap so am new to this, though I did a lot of research before starting.  I must say that the gel thing is still a little confusing to me.
When I add the lye solution my soap immediately turns to a sort of a carmely beige colour and trace always takes less than 4 - 5 minutes....sometimes only a minute or so with an electric hand mixer. It stays that colour throughout.  There is some odd slight colour variations as it cures depending on what oil I use but I stick to pretty basic oils.  So far the soaps have been great, clean very well (way better than bought soaps I have had), don't seem to be harsh - but don't lather much. I added castor oil to the last batch so we sill see (it is in the mold now).
Today however I took some out of the mold and it appears to have whiter blotches, which is I am assuming in gel phase, so this is the first time I have even noticed gelling. The whiter patches only go a couple of millimeters into the soap. The inside is an even "normal to me" colour.

A ramble perhaps to get to here perhaps, but my confusion comes with the gelling or partial gelling.  If as suggested in the above quote, gelling is part of saponification and I have not noticed it before:
- if it doesn't matter if it happens or not, how does it saponify without the gelling phase.  
- Does it always gel but is just vey subtle sometimes so one doesn't notice it?  -Some people have said here that they try not to gel, so how does that affect saponification?
-What is the difference between soap that has gone through the gel phase and soap that hasn't?

My soaps so far seem to be OK (from my perspective at least) but it would be nice to know how all this works.

Thanks

Hoaper


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## cmzaha (Oct 17, 2013)

Fran2 said:


> I personally don't like the look of gel soaps, but I am relatively new at this anyway.
> 
> Is this correct that without gelling the soap will take 2-3 longer to cure? This I did not know, that puts a damper on things.


 
I do not find my un-gelled soaps taking any longer to cure than gelled. Testing ph after 72 hrs will usually give an acceptable reading. I have even soaped slightly chilled oils, lye and molds when using a real heating fo such as so many coconut fo's are.


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## cmzaha (Oct 17, 2013)

hellogorgeous said:


> How do you guys prevent the gel process?? I've tried many many times - I've lost count. I've soaped at lower temps, and stuck it in the fridge. It still gels 100% all the time - and I prefer non-gelled, so it bugs the heck out of me. My basic soap recipe is olive oil, coconut oil, shea butter, castor oil, palm oil. Not complicated at all ...


 
I put mine in the freezer for a couple of hrs. Some very heating oils will still partial gel. For example I could not stop my neem soap from gelling which included a high percentage of neem, goat's milk, honey, and buttermilk powder, so I went to individual square cavity silicone mold. Problem solved. I also did a soap recently with gm, beeswax, honey, bee propolis, goat's milk, buttermilk, orange & clove eo's ...boy was that a heater upper!!! IPoured it in the mold and it liquified immediately, this happened with everything was pre-chilled. Had to crockpot that puppy


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## Hazel (Oct 17, 2013)

*@ hoaper*

_- if it doesn't matter if it happens or not, how does it saponify without the gelling phase.  _

There is still chemical conversion of the lye and oils even though the soap isn't getting hot. It just takes slightly longer.

_- Does it always gel but is just vey subtle sometimes so one doesn't notice it?  _

I suppose it's possible. I've had some batches I've gelled that didn't develop the more translucent appearance of gelled soap. I always assumed it was due to what oils I used in the batch. Maybe someone else can give an answer. 

_-Some people have said here that they try not to gel, so how does that affect saponification?_

Saponification slows down a little. Generally, my ungelled soap is fully saponified (zap free) in about 3 days. I have had a few batches which have taken longer.

_-What is the difference between soap that has gone through the gel phase and soap that hasn't?_

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38486
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=29487
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=26012

I don't understand what you mean by "whiter patches". Can you post a picture?



Fran2 said:


> Is this correct that without gelling the soap will take 2-3 longer to cure? This I did not know, that puts a damper on things.


 
  It’s been so long I had to go back and re-read what you meant by the 2-3. I saw in the header you had written weeks. It depends on what you prefer. I prefer to cure ungelled soap at least 6 weeks (so 2 weeks longer than soap I’ve let gel). But the main reason I let ungelled soap cure longer is the soap I make is higher in conditioning oils. I like the extra time to make sure the soap is hard and will last longer. If you’re using harder oils, it may not be necessary to cure longer than 4 weeks. You could experiment – use one bar at 4 weeks and then another at 6 weeks to see if there is a difference.

  However, IMO, what’s the problem with a couple more weeks curing to make sure the soap is really hard? I’ve got recipes which I cure 3 and 6+ months before I like to use them. They just get better with age. I also have to admit that I'm a lot more patient now than when I first started making CP.

  I have noticed ungelled soap takes longer to saponify but this might just because of my recipes and that I leave the soap in the frig until they don’t zap me. Other people might experience different results based upon their recipes and how they prevent gelling. I know some people have mentioned they put their soap in the freezer for a period of time and then take them out to finish saponifying at room temp. Some people have mentioned putting the soap in the freezer for awhile and then placing the soap in the frig. I don’t put my soap in the freezer. I just set them in the frig and leave them until they saponify. Your results will vary.


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## Saswede (Oct 18, 2013)

A few technical points (and some personal thoughts!) to add to Hazel's explanation:

Saponification is an exothermic chemical reaction - which means that as the oils react with the lye to form soap, heat is given off.  
The rate of saponification is temperature dependent - which means that saponification happens more quickly at higher temperatures, and more slowly at cooler temperatures.
So if you don't cool the soap down to slow the rate/speed at which the oils saponify, the heat generated by the saponification reaction will cause an increase in the speed at which the reaction occurs - which will generate even more heat, eventually "melting" the soap (the gel phase).  This is why some people apply external heat (like putting the soap in the oven, or using a heating pad) or insulate the soap with blankets or towels (to keep all of the heat around the soap), to ensure that you get a full gel.

The rate of saponification is usually highest in the first 4 to 6 hours, so this is when gel is most likely to happen.  If you cool the soap (either in the freezer or the fridge), you slow down the speed at which the soap saponifies - so you don't get as much heating, and the saponification reaction takes a little longer to complete.  But it will complete!  (As Hazel says, ungelled soap is usually zap free after 2 to 3 days, instead of 1 day with gelled soap.)

For most soaps that are prepared at or around room temperature, putting the soap in the fridge for 6 hours should be enough to prevent gel.  But some additives (honey is a good example) and EOs or FOs do cause additional heating, and if you put soaps with these ingredients in the fridge, you have a chance that you'll get a partial gel.  This isn't an issue with the usability of the soap, but it doesn't look very attractive because the color changes slightly in the area where gel has occurred - and you can usually see a "halo" effect in the middle of the soap bars, which doesn't fade as the soap cures.  So to avoid this happening, you can put the soap in the freezer for 3 to 4 hours (or even a little longer), and then move it into the fridge for a few hours to allow it to warm up slowly.  (I usually put any special soaps, milk soaps or any soaps with expensive ingredients in the freezer, just to be sure that I don't get a partial gel.)




Sent from my iPad using Soap Making


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2013)

Gel is just a "phase change" in soap that is caused by higher temperatures. It has nothing to do with saponification, really. 

I can warm a finished (saponified) soap to about 160-170 deg F to turn it from a solid into a gel. That's what people do when they rebatch a soap. Or I can let a saponifying soap heat up due to the chemical reaction and the soap will also go into a gel phase. That is what y'all are talking about in this thread.

What do I mean by "phase change"? Water has three phases -- solid (ice), liquid (water), and gas (water vapor or steam). Soap is a little more complicated in that it has a "gel" or "plastic" phase. 

Here's an example -- If you heat a solid wax like beeswax, it eventually it turns from a solid into a liquid, right? One "phase" is the solid. Another is the liquid. But think about wax just before the wax liquifies -- the point where it softens and changes its color a bit, but is still more-or-less solid. That is the "plastic" phase -- this is a rough equivalent to the gel phase for soap.

Soap is a special type of solid -- it is actually a water-in-soap colloid (aka emulsion) that happens to be a solid at room temp. It doesn't actually melt into a liquid, unlike wax. If you warm soap past the gel phase, it will just break down and turn into a nasty overheated mess.

If you choose to prevent a saponifying soap from gelling, the saponification reaction will still occur, just more slowly because the temperature is lower. Saponification might take, say, 24 hours rather than just a few hours. As far as whether a gelled soap cures faster ... nope, sorry, it really doesn't. You only shorten the cure time by the number of hours cut off of the saponification time.

To prevent gel, your job is to keep the total soap temperature below about 170 deg F during the entire time the soap is saponifying. In other words, figure on keeping the soap cool for 8 to 24 hours, depending on the soap, sometimes even more. Here are some ideas:

Use a thinner mold -- a slab mold rather than a loaf mold -- so the soap is not as deep. 
Use a mold that makes a smaller soap -- an individual bar mold rather than a large slab or loaf mold. 
Choose a mold that has little or no insulation -- a thin plastic mold rather than a thick wooden mold.
Increase the heat transfer rate by using a fan. Believe it or not, moving room-temperature air can keep a soap cooler than putting the mold into the quiet air in a fridge or freezer.
Raise the soap off any surface that can retain heat -- put your mold on a cooling rack in front of a fan so air can circulate underneath the mold as well as over the top and sides. Or put the soap on a cold surface -- your garage floor in cold weather, for example.

YMMV and all that....


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## Dennis (Oct 19, 2013)

Ungelled





Partial Gel





I tried to avoid gel several times.  The texture is different and liked by many people.  The picture of the partial gel was my first attempt.  I ended up sticking my mold in the freezer while I was putting together everything else and not taking it out until ready to pour.  Then I just stuck it back in the freezer for a couple of hours only to transfer it to the fridge and forget about it for a few days.  Success!  I don't sell any soap so am unconcerned with how much time it takes so can't really say how long it should stay in the fridge.  Loosey goosey seems to work well for me, other than lining molds.


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## kikajess (Nov 18, 2013)

I've been searching on the forum for a while now, but maybe I somehow missed the answer to my question: how long should we keep the loaf in the fridge to prevent gelling? Yesterday I tried for the first time to prevent gelling in a batch. After pouring, I put it in the freezer for a few hours, then I moved it to the fridge for a few more hours. After that, I put it in my soap closet over night, un-insulated. This morning it felt slightly warm to the touch. Does that mean it gelled? I pulled away some of the freezer paper to see what was going on in there. The loaf looks a little cakey and sticky. It is firm, and I think I could cut it, but I don't know if I should. What do you guys think?


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