# Liquid soap basics



## Happysoap (Nov 21, 2014)

So I have decided to embark on a new adventure - the liquid soap ! I have never made it. I plan to make a batch soon but before I do I am doing my research and reading about it. Naturally, I have some very newbie questions about it.

Does superfatting work like in bar soap (more moisturizing etc)? Why are you not supposed to superfat liquid soap? What is the effect if you do superfat? 

Has anyone doubled the water in their recipe? What is the effect?

Is it safe to use the soap paste without diluting it? 

As I said, I am at the research phase so any helpful comments or dos/donts are very welcome.  Thanks guys


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## Susie (Nov 21, 2014)

Happysoap said:


> So I have decided to embark on a new adventure - the liquid soap ! I have never made it. I plan to make a batch soon but before I do I am doing my research and reading about it. Naturally, I have some very newbie questions about it.
> 
> Does superfatting work like in bar soap (more moisturizing etc)? Why are you not supposed to superfat liquid soap? What is the effect if you do superfat?
> 
> ...



Hey, and welcome to the lovely world of liquid soap! 

1.  Superfatting liquid soap- you can superfat up to 3% without getting soap that separates into a top(fat/oil) layer and a clear(water based) layer.  While this soap is "safe", it is just not very pretty.  Lots of folks have good success using polysorbate 80 to pull the layers back together, so I will let them explain it.

2.  Doubling the water- at which stage?  Double the batch water(that you use to dissolve the KOH and make the paste with, or dilution?  I use a lye calculator that calls for more batch water than the others do:  

http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps

I like the processing better with more water.  If you are talking about dilution water, yes, I do dilute further for my foamer bottles.

3.  Can you use the paste without dilution?-  Yes, you can.  It is perfectly safe(assuming you made non-zapping paste to begin with)  I use 100% coconut oil paste to clean my stove and some baking pans that get that brown residue accumulation you have to remove.  It is not the same as using commercial cleaners for the same jobs, but it works.  Last trip out of town I made, I put a glob of hand soap paste in a small tub to use to wash my hands with to avoid using commercial soap.(I get eczema if I use too much commercial soap.)  Worked a charm.  I just need to figure out a better way to use it so I am not dipping dirty hands back into it.  Maybe I can make small balls out of it, and let it dry....hmm....


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## IrishLass (Nov 21, 2014)

I use the glycerin method of making liquid soap, where the KOH is dissolved in hot glycerin instead of water before being added to the oils/fats. The resulting paste is then diluted with water.

Like Susie, my lye calculator of choice for my liquid soaps is SummerbeeMeadows Advanced Calculator for liquid soaps. I agree with everything she said about how much batch water they give you to use (which I sub with glycerin 1:1). I've always had good success with my liquid soap when using their calculator.

Re: superfat. I always superfat mine. I plug in a 3% superfat up front on the SBM calculator when making all my liquid soap batches. If I am making my favorite olive oil formula, I always get a beautiful, golden colored, clear-as-a-bell finished liquid soap with the 3% superfat that is stable (i.e. no separation ever). But if I decide to add a 1% or 2% superfat on top of that during dilution (which I have done so in the past), I do get separation after a few months time unless I add an equal amount of Polysorbate 80 as per the extra added superfat. 

I have another formula that I make (also with an up-front 3% superfat), but this one contains shea and cocoa butter, and so it doesn't finish up as clear-as-a-bell like my other formula, but that's fine for me because I'm able to work with its murkiness by adding stearic to it to give it a lovely creamy/opaque/pearly looking finish. When all is said and done, this particular formula ends up having a 6% superfat. So far, with the PS 80 I add to it, it hasn't ever separated on me (over a year and counting). This particular soap formula is my absolute favorite to use. My family loves it, too. My sister-in-law especially loves it because it's one of the few liquid soaps she can use repeatedly without getting rashes (she washes her hands a lot). My olive oil formula is very nice to use, too, but this one just looks and feels so much more luxuriant that one feels like royalty using it. lol


 IrishLass


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## DeeAnna (Nov 21, 2014)

If your paste is fairly firm and "dry", what about a super-size lip balm tube, Susie? 
https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Big-Lip-Balm-Tubes.html
https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Bigger-Lip-Balm-Tubes.html

Or perhaps a squeeze tube (tottle, Malibu bottle) if your paste is a bit softer and gel-like? 
http://www.sks-bottle.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=tottle


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## FGOriold (Nov 21, 2014)

I would be concerned that using the paste without diluting it may be too concentrated for skin use unless you used a very, very tiny amount - plus you may waste quite a bit of it due to the concentration of soap. 
Water amount to dissolve your lye is important - use too little and you will have trouble mixing your paste as it cooks, use too much and it takes much longer for the paste to trace so you can start the cook.
I am also a user of the SBM calculator - really can't go wrong there.


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## Susie (Nov 22, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> If your paste is fairly firm and "dry", what about a super-size lip balm tube, Susie?
> https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Big-Lip-Balm-Tubes.html
> https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Bigger-Lip-Balm-Tubes.html
> 
> ...



I LOVE the idea of using lip balm tubes!  I won't even have to use the big ones!  And I already have a lot of them!  Thank you so much!  That will solve the on-the-road handwashing issue nicely!

My paste is thick enough to roll a rope out of it, so I should be able to roll it thin enough and just push it in the tube.

Yes, Faith, I wasted a bit of it, but after the trip before last when it took me 3 weeks to get my hands to stop itching, it is worth it.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 22, 2014)

I'm really glad I could spark off your idea, Susie, and help you out! It had never occurred to me to try this, but now I think I'm going to give this a whirl myself. I don't get dermatitis from commercial soap like you do, but I don't like it when there is no soap in a restroom to wash my hands. A bit of soap paste in a twist-up tube would be handy at times like that. Better, even, than a thin flake of bar soap, like people at times talk about making.

I do see your point, Faith -- definitely a "little dab will do ya". I do use my LS soap paste for household cleaning -- especially my shower and sinks. I put a dab on a sponge, dust the paste with baking soda or Bon Ami cleanser, and scrub away. That, of course, only happens when I can no longer find excuses to not clean house!


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## DeeAnna (Nov 23, 2014)

I put some soap paste in a large lip-balm tube today and tried it out. I twisted the tube to get a tiny bit of the paste above the top of the tube, swiped it off on a finger, rubbed it out thin, and added water. Works a treat! I'm sure it would also work in regular lip-balm tubes if you used a chopstick or something like that to push the paste into the tube. I just grabbed a larger one so I could fill the tube using my fingertip -- sometimes it's fun to go for instant gratification.


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## Susie (Nov 23, 2014)

That is so awesome to know!! You are a genius!!  I think I am going to make some travel soap for Christmas gifts for my much traveled family members!

*Update* Ordered some larger tubes.  Should be easier to load.  If you are ordering small amounts, it looks like Elements Bath and Body has the best price/shipping cost combination.


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## Mish (Dec 13, 2014)

Test


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## Mish (Dec 13, 2014)

Hello My Lovely Fellow Soapers, 

How are you all doing? It's been a while since I've posted to this Forum. I've been doing CP soap for about 2 and half years now and I'm ready to start or rather vastly improve my liquid soap making. 

There are a few liquid soap calculator resources out there... 

I know a lot of you reference Summer Bee Meadows, possibly because she/he is a  follow soaper on this site, or maybe even the creator? I'm not sure as I  haven't done any homework on the matter, but I find this calculator a  little overwhelming.  :-?
http://www.summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps

Another one is the SoapCal which I use exclusively with my CP recipes and although there is a option for KOH I'm not sure that the recipe conversion really factors that in?  
http://http://soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp

Brambleberry's calc -I'm not sure what to make of it as I have never used her lye calculator not even with CP. 
http://http://www.brambleberry.com/Pages/Lye-Calculator.aspx

The thing is that all of these calculators produce different lye to water/liquid conversions!
Comments, options, critiques, suggestions would be much appreciated.  
With goat milk powder I assume I should add it in during the dilution stage - would I be correct in my assumption?  I assume that if I add it to the oils and then add my KOH then it may end up turning dark brown during the process. 
I know that using glycerin speeds up the trace time, but what if I use distilled water and then add honey to accelerate trace? 
Would glycerin and honey be overkill? ​Now for my recipe (I would have used castor oil too but I am currently all out) 
​I ended up using Summer Bee Meadows basic calculator for liquid
http://www.summerbeemeadow.com/content/lye-calculator-and-recipe-resizer

*Percent Superfatted:*                   3.00  %

*Oils/Fats:             Ounces:               Oil %:*
Shea Butter (unrefined)     6.00        30.00  
Olive Oil (Pomace)           8.00        40.00
Coconut Oil (76 degree)    6.00        30.00

*Calculated Alkali & Water Needed:*
Potassium Hydroxide :   4.24       Oz.
Minimum Water :           12.73     Oz.

*Total Oils Weight:             20.00     Ounces*

*Total Recipe Weight:      36.97     Ounces*
 
Thoughts, Comments, Critiques, Suggestions?
​ 
With Love, 
Mish 



_Note: I've used the search feature before posting so please no wet noodle lashings ;-)_


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## Susie (Dec 13, 2014)

No wet noodle lashings from me.  For sure.  Your research shows in your post.  And it is much appreciated!

I will answer what I can.  I have never used honey or goat's milk in my liquid soap, so I am no help there.

I use the SBM Advanced calculator because I like the outcomes better.  It uses more water, and I was having trouble with my paste before.  I just do a lot less fighting with super hard paste now with it.  I truly have no idea who created that calculator.  I have used 4 or 5 others that I did not like the paste.  But, you use what you like, and make up your own mind.  We always tell people what calculator we used so that if our numbers are different than what they got from their calculator, then they know why.

I use Soapcalc.net for my bar soaps also.  That is the best calculator I have found for CP.

If you don't mind answering a couple of questions, I might be able to steer you a bit on the recipe.  

1.  What kind of soap are you planning to make?  Hand soap, shampoo, shower gel?
2.  Does it matter if your soap is clear?
3.  What are you hoping to accomplish with the honey and goat's milk?  If the honey is to increase bubbles, then sugar works, so I don't see why honey wouldn't.


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## Mish (Dec 13, 2014)

Hello Susie, 



> 1.  What kind of soap are you planning to make?  Hand soap, shampoo, shower gel?
> 2.  Does it matter if your soap is clear?
> 3.  What are you hoping to accomplish with the honey and goat's milk?   If the honey is to increase bubbles, then sugar works, so I don't see  why honey wouldn't.



Thank you for your reply.  I'm aiming for a body wash, I don't mind a soap that isn't clear. I was thinking the honey could both increase bubbles and also accelerate the trace as it does with CP.  I was thinking of using powdered goat milk to make the soap feel silky and also for it's moisturizing properties. 

I once made a body wash/shampoo using coconut milk
Olive Oil 40%
Coconut Oil 20%
Jojoba oil 10%
Caster oil 20%
Shea butter 10%
In that recipe I have it noted that I used 
15.2 Oz liquid (It was a mix of Coconut milk and Red Zinger Tea - unfortunately I didn't document the % of my mixture)
7.08 Oz KOH

I used the SoapCalc for this my  recipe is dated 10/2013 and well apparently I didn't realize then that you shouldn't super fat/discount more than 3% because I have in my recipe 7% however that shampoo was awesome! 
(I keep a large 3 ring binder of notes and recipes of soaps I've made through out the years)​hmmm...

Sorry I went off on a tangent, when you asked me about body wash or shampoo it reminded me I did make shampoo once and I of course scurried off to my notebook... lol


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## Susie (Dec 13, 2014)

I have a binder also.  Your recipe sounds a bit high in coconut oil to me.  But liquid soap is, as you know, a different beast than CP or HP.  I have never used goat's milk, so let me know how it turns out, will you?


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## girlishcharm2004 (Dec 13, 2014)

I know some successfully use goats milk for making the paste, although, not at 100%.  I don't know about diluting the liquid soap with milk.  That seems like it would go sour...


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## Susie (Dec 14, 2014)

girlishcharm2004 said:


> I know some successfully use goats milk for making the paste, although, not at 100%.  I don't know about diluting the liquid soap with milk.  That seems like it would go sour...



Good catch.  I missed that.  And I agree.


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## girlishcharm2004 (Dec 14, 2014)

Mish said:


> 15.2 Oz liquid (It was a mix of Coconut milk and Red Zinger Tea - unfortunately I didn't document the % of my mixture)



I just realized you used a "zinger" tea; it didn't register at first.  However, whenever I have used "zinger" tea with milk, the milk curdles.   It sounds like you didn't use that much in your recipe, but I wonder how much superfat it added by reacting and therefore neutralizing the lye. It was just a thought!


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## Mish (Dec 14, 2014)

Hi girlishcharm2004, 



girlishcharm2004 said:


> I know some successfully use goats milk for making the paste, although, not at 100%. I don't know about diluting the liquid soap with milk. That seems like it would go sour...



 Powdered goat's milk doesn't go sour like liquid goat milk does. 



> I just realized you used a "zinger" tea; it didn't register at first. However, whenever I have used "zinger" tea with milk, the milk curdles. It sounds like you didn't use that much in your recipe, but I wonder how much superfat it added by reacting and therefore neutralizing the lye. It was just a thought!


 
 The recipe you are referring to above I was using coconut milk which does not curdle, the superfat was at 7%.  When I made in 2013 I didn't know that it was advised not to superfat over 3% however it turned out really well despite the fact. 

 Mish


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## DeeAnna (Dec 14, 2014)

"...Powdered goat's milk doesn't go sour like liquid goat milk does. ..."

Not in powdered form, yes, I agree. But when reconstituted with water, it most certainly will go sour.

When you dilute soap paste, you would have to add water along with the milk powder, so you are basically reconstituting the milk. Without a heavy duty preservative, this is likely to go bad.

The advice I have heard from experienced LS makers is to make the soap paste with botanical ingredients or other additives like milk that are a source of food for microbes. Let the lye and high pH do their thing. Dilute the paste with distilled water only. The more botanicals or food additives you use to make the soap paste, the more you should consider adding a preservative too.


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## Mish (Dec 14, 2014)

[QUOTEWhen you dilute soap paste, you would have to add water along with the milk powder, so you are basically reconstituting the milk. Without a heavy duty preservative, this is likely to go bad.

The advice I have heard from experienced LS makers is to make the soap paste with botanical ingredients or other additives like milk that are a source of food for microbes. Let the lye and high pH do their thing. Dilute the paste with distilled water only. The more botanicals or food additives you use to make the soap paste, the more you should consider adding a preservative too.[/QUOTE]

Hi DeAnna, 

Thank you so much for your advise! I will definitely stay clear of powdered goat milk in my liquid recipes... and this is why I posted my idea before going forward and learning the hard way! I am really thankful to be a part of such a great soapers community. :smile:

With Love, 
Mish


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## Mish (Dec 14, 2014)

[/QUOTE]When you dilute soap paste, you would have to add water along with the milk powder, so you are basically reconstituting the milk. Without a heavy duty preservative, this is likely to go bad.

The advice I have heard from experienced LS makers is to make the soap paste with botanical ingredients or other additives like milk that are a source of food for microbes. Let the lye and high pH do their thing. Dilute the paste with distilled water only. The more botanicals or food additives you use to make the soap paste, the more you should consider adding a preservative too.[/QUOTE]

Hi DeAnna, 

Thank you so much for your advise! I will definitely stay clear of powdered goat milk in my liquid recipes... and this is why I posted my idea before going forward and learning the hard way! I am really thankful to be a part of such a great soapers community. :smile:

With Love, 
Mish


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## Mish (Dec 14, 2014)

> When you dilute soap paste, you would have to add water along with the milk powder, so you are basically reconstituting the milk. Without a heavy duty preservative, this is likely to go bad.
> 
> The advice I have heard from experienced LS makers is to make the soap paste with botanical ingredients or other additives like milk that are a source of food for microbes. Let the lye and high pH do their thing. Dilute the paste with distilled water only. The more botanicals or food additives you use to make the soap paste, the more you should consider adding a preservative too.



Hi DeAnna, 

Thank you so much for your advise! I will definitely stay clear of powdered goat milk in my liquid recipes... and this is why I posted my idea before going forward and learning the hard way! I am really thankful to be a part of such a great soapers community. :smile:

With Love, 
Mish


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