# Difference in olive oils?



## narnia (Dec 12, 2015)

Is there a difference between the grocery store "Mediterranean olive oil" and "Pomace olive oil?"  Thx!


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## Obsidian (Dec 12, 2015)

As far as soaping goes, not really. Pomace might trace a bit faster but its what I use and I have no trouble with it.


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## narnia (Dec 12, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> As far as soaping goes, not really. Pomace might trace a bit faster but its what I use and I have no trouble with it.



Thank you!  Is it just as conditioning as the regular olive oil?


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## Obsidian (Dec 12, 2015)

Yes, possibly even more since there are more unsaponifiables in it.


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## narnia (Dec 12, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> Yes, possibly even more since there are more unsaponifiables in it.



How so?  I mean...what is the difference in the composition or extraction method that would make it have more unsaponifiables in it?  I like the science.


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## Obsidian (Dec 12, 2015)

Pomace is the last oil extracted from the olives, usually using some kind of solvent. Not really sure about the composition or why its different, I just know it is. We need Deeanna to come along and give us a good sciency explanation.


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## ngian (Dec 13, 2015)

I don't think Pomace Olive oil has more unsaponifiables than Virgin Olive oil. One sign for this is the extremely similar SAP value they have. I also think that another sign is the also similar amount of saturated / monounsaturated / polyunsaturated fatty acids they have in their nutrition labels.

The only difference I can see after testing both of them are:

-Pomace is 50% cheaper were I live 
- Pomace probably has more unwanted chemical because of the extraction method used 
- Pomace has more a bigger acidity value (more free fatty acids floating) that's why it comes to trace faster.


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## penelopejane (Dec 13, 2015)

http://www.livestrong.com/article/434218-what-is-the-difference-between-pomace-oil-and-olive-oil/

This might help you.

And this one is more about pomace and its ingredients:
http://www.oliveoiltimes.com/olive-oil-basics/olive-oil-grades/olive-pomace-oil/6210

Mediterranean olive oil. Could be anything, although one would hope it is from olive trees grown in the Mediterranean. You would have to read the label more thoroughly.


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

ngian said:


> - Pomace probably has more unwanted chemical because of the extraction method used
> - Pomace has more a bigger acidity value (more free fatty acids floating) that's why it comes to trace faster.



Don't like the extra chemicals.  

Bigger acidity value would be a positive wouldn't it?  Would it help the soap me less alkaline (harsh)?


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## traderbren (Dec 13, 2015)

Many of the "Mediterranean" olive oils in stores are actually a blend of olive, canola, and grapeseed. You'll need to read the label carefully to make sure it's 100% olive oil.


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## ngian (Dec 13, 2015)

narnia said:


> Bigger acidity value would be a positive wouldn't it?  Would it help the soap me less alkaline (harsh)?



Acidity value of an oil has nothing to do with the acid value in the PH range of a water based liquid. 

You can not meter the acidity value of an oil with ph strips. 

If an oil has a high acidity value it means that it has many free fatty acids that lye will saponify instantly (fast acceleration). This phenomenon will not make the soap less alkaline as lye will keep the soap's ph high (9-10,5), range at which the soap works.


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

ngian said:


> Acidity value of an oil has nothing to do with the acid value in the PH range of a water based liquid.
> 
> You can not meter the acidity value of an oil with ph strips.
> 
> If an oil has a high acidity value it means that it has many free fatty acids that lye will saponify instantly (fast acceleration). This phenomenon will not make the soap less alkaline as lye will keep the soap's ph high (9-10,5), range at which the soap works.



I DID notice that it reached trace MUCH faster (within 5 minutes) than with the regular OO (30 min)!!  

Now, does this mean that it would saponify more completely, leaving less fats to nourish the skin?


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

traderbren said:


> Many of the "Mediterranean" olive oils in stores are actually a blend of olive, canola, and grapeseed. You'll need to read the label carefully to make sure it's 100% olive oil.



My label says 100% olive oil in ingredients.


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

I wonder....could I mix the two OOs 50/50?  To speed up trace but to keep the nicer properties of the regular OO?


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## ngian (Dec 13, 2015)

narnia said:


> Now, does this mean that it would saponify more completely, leaving less fats to nourish the skin?



I think that the only thing it can happen with Pomace is for the saponification to be completed sooner reaching a higher peak temperature, making the unmolding and cutting time sorter. The lye discount will not be affected if everything else is equal. 

If you want to slow down the saponification speed with Pomace, I would soap cooler, use a whisk instead of stick blender and use a little more water than usual.


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

ngian said:


> I think that the only thing it can happen with Pomace is for the saponification to be completed sooner reaching a higher peak temperature, making the unmolding and cutting time sorter. The lye discount will not be affected if everything else is equal.
> 
> If you want to slow down the saponification speed with Pomace, I would soap cooler, use a whisk instead of stick blender and use a little more water than usual.



I am using goat milk only....no water at all.  I will be cooking in crockpot on "warm."  So, are you saying that using a regular OO will keep the batch cooler during saponification?  However, if I am cooking the soap, I guess it will not matter?


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## ngian (Dec 13, 2015)

Everything I wrote so far in this thread was about soaping with CP method. I have not done HP ever before so I don't know how all the above parameters affect the procedure.


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## Obsidian (Dec 13, 2015)

Trace time doesn't matter one bit in HP. ngian, not sure why you disagree with pomace having more unsaponifiables, google pomace + unsaponifiables, you will get a ton of info on the subject. 
There is some controversy on the chemicals used for extraction, some people believe they stay in the soap, other believe they can't survive the lye. Other likes myself, don't really care either way. Soap is on the skin for such a short amount of time, I don't feel its really a concern.

narnia, do you have access to costco? Their kirkland brand OO is really good and its inexpensive.


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

No.  We are 2.5 hours from a Costco.


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> There is some controversy on the chemicals used for extraction, some people believe they stay in the soap, other believe they can't survive the lye. Other likes myself, don't really care either way. Soap is on the skin for such a short amount of time, I don't feel its really a concern.



I am concerned, because things are absorbed into the body through the skin.  The short time that it stays on the skin, it still penetrates and that is why people are wanting to make their own soaps...to avoid the chemicals of commercial soaps.

If I had known this, I would never have ordered the pomace.  I want a chemical-free soap.


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## shunt2011 (Dec 13, 2015)

narnia said:


> I am concerned, because things are absorbed into the body through the skin.  The short time that it stays on the skin, it still penetrates and that is why people are wanting to make their own soaps...to avoid the chemicals of commercial soaps.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had known this, I would never have ordered the pomace.  I want a chemical-free soap.




There is no such thing as chemical free soap.  You are using lye which is a chemical.  EO/FO are chemicals    It's a wash off product. Not on the skin long enough to be absorbed enough to affect you really


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## ngian (Dec 13, 2015)

Well I am referring to the refined crystal clear yellow or green color Pomace Olive oil that you can buy at a supermarket and not the very old oil that is very cloudy found eg. in big containers someone has at the basement. 

As far as it concerns the chemicals, I don't know either if they survive the lye or if they stay at our body while bathing, I just mentioned that they are present in the first place.


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> There is no such thing as chemical free soap.  You are using lye which is a chemical.  EO/FO are chemicals    It's a wash off product. Not on the skin long enough to be absorbed enough to affect you really



From what I understand...the lye is completely gone when the soap has cured.  EOs are all natural botanical products.  FOs are yes, a chemical product, which is in such a tiny amount that it should not have much, if any effect.  However, OO is basically the bulk of the soap....


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## DeeAnna (Dec 13, 2015)

The idea that pomace olive oil has higher unsaponifiable content compared with other types of olive oil somewhat accurate. The standards for pomace call for a max unsaponifiable content of 3% by weight and the other grades of olive have a limit of 1.5%.* 

For comparison, my notes show coconut oil may have up to 1% unsaponifiables, palm oil 1.2%, lard around 1%. Of the typical soaping fats, I would consider shea to have a high unsaponifible content. It runs around 4-9% -- a LOT higher than the others. I don't know that I'd put pomace in the same category as shea -- remember that 3% is a MAX value, not an average.

What is quite a bit different about pomace is the allowable acidity at the time of manufacture -- it has an allowable acidity that is 1/10th that allowed for extra virgin olive. Yes ... LESS acidity than extra virgin. Keep in mind this is the acidity from the supplier, however -- not the acidity after weeks or months of sitting on a store shelf or in your pantry.

* http://www.internationaloliveoil.org/estaticos/view/222-standards
also
http://www.codexalimentarius.org/standards/list-of-standards/ Search for CODEX STAN 33-1981, Standard for Olive Oils and Olive Pomace Oils


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## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

Thx, DeeAnna!  That is very helpful!


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## DeeAnna (Dec 13, 2015)

"the lye is completely gone when the soap has cured ... OO is basically the bulk of the soap...."

This logic doesn't work just one way. If lye isn't present in the soap when cured -- and I agree that it should not be -- then it is also just as true that olive oil is not the bulk of the soap. Saponified olive oil is.


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## ngian (Dec 13, 2015)

Thank you DeeAnna for the information, so I guess virgin and pomace has so much little difference in unsaponified content that it might be difficult to understand while comparing them. 

I'll try my best to see if I can understand this when I'll test my experiment in a couple of months: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57549

I have just also read that a company called HELLENIC ORGANIC FOOD that makes and sells Olive Oil in the southern region of Greece, their Extra Virgin has from 0,5% to 1,5% of unsaponifiable content while their pomace has up to 2,5%.


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## penelopejane (Dec 14, 2015)

narnia said:


> I am concerned, because things are absorbed into the body through the skin.  The short time that it stays on the skin, it still penetrates and that is why people are wanting to make their own soaps...to avoid the chemicals of commercial soaps.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had known this, I would never have ordered the pomace.  I want a chemical-free soap.




I agree with you, Narnia. It is important to me. 
I get a reaction to EOs but not FOs. 
My DH can't use either FOs or EOs. He is not sure of the reaction but adds say to use I fragranced soap.


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