# Brambleberry _ IFRA



## cmzaha (Jun 18, 2018)

Has anyone noticed that B&B is not listing the actual IFRA usage for their fragrances or am I missing something?


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## Lin19687 (Jun 18, 2018)

Nope don't see it, I wonder if it is because she wants you to use her FO Calc ?

But it is not listed there either, just sm, med, lg scent amounts


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## cmzaha (Jun 18, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> Nope don't see it, I wonder if it is because she wants you to use her FO Calc ?
> 
> But it is not listed there either, just sm, med, lg scent amounts


Not sure why she does not have it posted.


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## Misschief (Jun 18, 2018)

Voyageur doesn't post it either.


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## cmzaha (Jun 18, 2018)

Of course it is not mandatory to have fo's tested by the IFRA or do they have to post the results


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## Lin19687 (Jun 19, 2018)

No, you are correct, she doesn't HAVE to. But for us that care about safety, makes me want to buy elsewhere.


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## Parfumerie (Jun 19, 2018)

So many amazing fragrances have been ruined by reformulation due to ifra compliance


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## LilyJo (Jun 19, 2018)

Agree with Lin, wouldnt use a FO that hadnt been tested for safety - not 100% sure but think you would struggle to sell over here using a product that didnt comply with IFRA


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## cmzaha (Jun 19, 2018)

In the US it is not mandatory for fragrance manufacturers to submit their fragrances for IFRA testing. They only have to specify if the fragrance is body safe and at what the max usage is. Let's face it who would use any fragrance at 5 or 6% in a lotion or leave on product other than maybe a solid perfume. Common sense has to come into play. For soap the fragrance is diluted with water and rinsed off in seconds. No customer is going to know what IFRA is and you have assessment to help control the product. 

I also find it very hard to believe every fragrance manufacturer is going to send out every fragrance to a self regulating association. Manufacturers do know what they are making and the percentages of the components/constituents they use


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## LilyJo (Jun 19, 2018)

I know its different in the States and if someone was only using FO in leave on or wash off for personal use its entirely up to the maker how much they use. But I do know that people dont always abide by sensible percentages.

Customers dont always know what IFRA is but thats part of why our products are safety assessed to make sure all of the ingredients are safe individually and in combination. In order to get a product safety assessed in the EU you need the IFRA cert...

This is an extract from an assessor "Fragrances are often very complicated chemical mixtures and the exact formulation is usually strictly confidential. To enable fragrance manufacturers to keep their formulations secret, but still provide information about the safety of the ingredients, IFRA certificates are used.

IFRA (International Fragrance Association) certificates provide information on the safety of a fragrance and the limits at which it can be used in different cosmetic products. There are 11 IFRA product categories relating to how and where the product is used - if it is leave-on, or rinse-off etc.

When you use a fragrance your supplier will provide you with an IFRA certificate"

If it was for me I would be wary but if it was a reputable supplier I might take a chance but if I was selling there is no way I would use a FO that I couldnt verify had been safety assessed.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 20, 2018)

cmzaha said:


> In the US it is not mandatory for fragrance manufacturers to submit their fragrances for IFRA testing. They only have to specify if the fragrance is body safe and at what the max usage is. Let's face it who would use any fragrance at 5 or 6% in a lotion or leave on product other than maybe a solid perfume. Common sense has to come into play. For soap the fragrance is diluted with water and rinsed off in seconds. No customer is going to know what IFRA is and you have assessment to help control the product.
> 
> I also find it very hard to believe every fragrance manufacturer is going to send out every fragrance to a self regulating association. Manufacturers do know what they are making and the percentages of the components/constituents they use


But we know that there are people out there selling day old hp and soaps that will cure cancer. Common sense is not always so common


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## gloopygloop (Jun 20, 2018)

LilyJo said:


> Agree with Lin, wouldnt use a FO that hadnt been tested for safety - not 100% sure but think you would struggle to sell over here using a product that didnt comply with IFRA



I totally agree.


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## Lin19687 (Jun 20, 2018)

I am not bashing anyone on here for their views...

One other thing..
Example --- If it wasn't for NG listing what the % to use was on a certain FO I bought, I would have used 5%.  It was a 1% usage rate !!! It is listed Right on the page of that particular FO.  I don't have to go to another page, click on a bunch of stuff to find out what someone 'thinks' you should scent at.

When you think about the HARM you could possibly do to someone, not on purpose, but due to ignorance.  Which in court would tell you that it was *your *responsibility to FIND OUT.  
Of course this isn't just if you are selling, it's EVEN IF you are giving to someone. Just because you didn't take money doesn't mean you are not liable .

--> As a newbee I didn't know all of this back in the day and thank goodness I was very light handed in scenting.  It is Scary to think about it now how I could have injured someone who used my soap back then.  My own Kids !
Here we have the opportunity to educate people to FIND the info.  
So I am glad this was asked !

*** I am going to say this, and most likely get bashed for it but here goes .....  *My Personally feelings *are that I find it negligent for a business to NOT list % on each FO they sell (not only soap but skin a well).  This is one other thing that I do not like about BB and the reason I do not buy from them.  I have some old FO's that I was given from them.  Actually I think I tossed them all only because the scent was off.   
It really is too bad as she has done some great things with videos and CAN be very informational.


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## Misschief (Jun 20, 2018)

So..... where do you find suggested usage numbers for the different fragrance oils?


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## dibbles (Jun 20, 2018)

Misschief said:


> So..... where do you find suggested usage numbers for the different fragrance oils?



The usage rates are usually listed somewhere on the individual fragrance description page. I know that Nurture, Rustic Escentuals, Fragrance Buddy, WSP and Nature's Garden list them. Here is an example from Nurture:


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## shunt2011 (Jun 20, 2018)

I only use FO's I can find usage rates for.  I don't purchase scents with low usage rates.   I agree that they should be listed on their site.  I don't care if they test their products as long as there is the important stuff.  Testing of product is a bonus.


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## Terri E (Jun 21, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> I only use FO's I can find usage rates for.  I don't purchase scents with low usage rates.   I agree that they should be listed on their site.  I don't care if they test their products as long as there is the important stuff.  Testing of product is a bonus.



 I do the same. Only fragrances I can find usage rates for and I don't buy fragrances with low usage rates even if the reviews are great. I had to hold a 16 oz bottle of amazing Mysore Sandalwood FO until I received the IFRA usage rates from the company. After several emails and 2-3 months time they finally sent it to me. It was not available on their website.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Jun 21, 2018)

What is a low usage rate?


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## Terri E (Jun 21, 2018)

Alfa_Lazcares said:


> What is a low usage rate?



If the max usage rate for soap is less than 3% I don't bother. I want the scent to stick but I also have concerns about the safety of chemicals used to make a FO with such a low usage rate. For me, I like to see max usage rates above 10%. 15% and above is even better  I keep my usage rate at about 4-5% no matter how high max usage is though.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Jun 21, 2018)

Terri E said:


> If the max usage rate for soap is less than 3% I don't bother. I want the scent to stick but I also have concerns about the safety of chemicals used to make a FO with such a low usage rate. For me, I like to see max usage rates above 10%. 15% and above is even better  I keep my usage rate at about 4-5% no matter how high max usage is though.



Ah, got it. Thank you! I am just starting to research FO for my soaps


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## lenarenee (Jun 22, 2018)

*sigh*  I assumed that their calculator was "set" to the IFRA ratings of their fragrances.  After all....isn't that responsible business? If it isn't representative of IFRA standards...then how are they doing it?

Guess an email to BB is in order. I have people who like quit a few of bb fo's.  Like me!  Apple Sage, Salty Mariner, Arabian Spice...


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## Kiya (Jun 22, 2018)

Wow, this is why I love this form. I am a new soaper and had know idea about these certifications.(maybe because I am from US/ California) I just emailed brambleberry asking if they were IFRA certified and I asked why they dont have it posted. 

I have only ordered oils from them so far so this is disturbing for me to hear. I hope they clear things up for me and everyone here. If I am out of luck and they are potentially dangerous where do you guys perchase safe quality fragrences from?

I usually prefer a more naturalistic approach. I don't know if there is such a thing with FO, yet if there is, I am open ears!


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## lucycat (Jun 23, 2018)

IFRA are safe amounts for use but that doesn't correlate to how much fragrance is needed for a medium or strong scent.    Although there are fragrance oils with an IFRA for soap of 3-6% there are also plenty of FO with an IFRA amount greater than 30%.  Obviously that wouldn't be what you would use for soap.  So, a fragrance calculator can't just be the IFRA amounts.

I don't know how Brambleberry calculates their scent amounts in the calculator and sometimes I think it is off for certain fragrances.  However, if I want to purchase a scent where their recommended fragrance amount for a soap is low I wonder if it is due to a low IFRA percentage.  I have always just asked Brambleberry for the IFRA statement.  They have always responded promptly and forwarded me the IFRA report.   On the fragrances that I have reports their fragrance calculator did not use more than  the IFRA amount for soap.


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## Lin19687 (Jun 24, 2018)

Fo's are not natural, EO's are.


lucycat said:


> IFRA are safe amounts for use but that doesn't correlate to how much fragrance is needed for a medium or strong scent.    Although there are fragrance oils with an IFRA for soap of 3-6% there are also plenty of FO with an IFRA amount greater than 30%.  Obviously that wouldn't be what you would use for soap.  So, a fragrance calculator can't just be the IFRA amounts.
> 
> I don't know how Brambleberry calculates their scent amounts in the calculator and sometimes I think it is off for certain fragrances.  However, if I want to purchase a scent where their recommended fragrance amount for a soap is low I wonder if it is due to a low IFRA percentage.  I have always just asked Brambleberry for the IFRA statement.  They have always responded promptly and forwarded me the IFRA report.   On the fragrances that I have reports their fragrance calculator did not use more than  the IFRA amount for soap.



As nice as they are about providing 'when asked' not everyone wants to sit and type out an email about it.  Nor do they want to type out over and over which scent, recipe in the Bb calc.

They have some Wonderful scents.  I just don't understand, if they have it, why not just list it.  It is simply just adding it to the coding (or type into spot for a D/D template website) and publishing.  YEAH I know they have like 100 scents.  Business wise, would you want to lose customers ?  It's like repeating the ingredients in your soap 100 times in an hour....  not worth it and that is why we have it on our soaps 

BIG EXAMPLE -- If you check out NG for Apple Jack Peel  https://www.naturesgardencandles.com/apple-jack-peel-fragrance-oil you will see that the Usage rate is 1% Flash Point is 150F.  I was going to buy it except for this reason I did not. So if my math is correct that is 0.16 oz PPO ?

Here is BB https://www.brambleberry.com/applejack-peel-fragrance-oil-p3905.aspx  They list the MSDS which means crap to me since this one was an old type(?), but it says FP is 152F, and she lists in the ad 172F which is HUGE difference in my book.  Also in her Calc is says to use 0.44 for light scent and 0.88 for strong, roughly 3-5% rates.. Can that be correct ?


I truly don't want to bash her, but putting misinformation in can hurt someone.  That is just bad biz, kinda like selling a 1 day old CP soap bar

edit, if this sounds so **** snarky it is not meant to me, I didn't sleep last night so I may be a bit off today


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## Moose Wrangler (Jul 11, 2018)

I realized this very thing today, sigh. I have a package showing up soon so I contacted Brambleberry for the IFRA report. To their credit they got it to me within a few hours (I'm impressed) but given how low the allowable rate of one FO is I probably won't even use it now. 

It's odd to me that it's not on the site like so many other providers. I probably won't buy FO's from them again unless they start including the information on their website. Love the customer service and that it's a WA company but I don't want to have to email them every time I'm interested in an FO. 

Lesson learned.


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## lenarenee (Jul 12, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> Fo's are not natural, EO's are.
> 
> 
> As nice as they are about providing 'when asked' not everyone wants to sit and type out an email about it.  Nor do they want to type out over and over which scent, recipe in the Bb calc.
> ...



Wow - I was confused as to why you were asking the question until it finally dawned on me that you expected the fo to be the same formula from each company. (another sleep deprived person here!)

Yes, it's quite possible to have different flashpoint/usage rate because the fo formula from BB is not the same as the fo formula from NG despite the identical name.  It's frustrating; I ordered BRV and Fresh Cut Roses from Nurture, loved them in soap, wanted to use in them in lotion but found that Nurture's usage rate is way too low for a leave on produtct and had to find an appropriate copy for the lotion I wanted.

(isn't sleep a wonderful thing?)


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## SudsanSoaps (Jul 12, 2018)

Correct me if I’m wrong but the IFRA limit would basically be for people with sensitivity’s?  So if the limit is 5% 99.5 people out of 100 would have no side effect. And at 3% usage rate math says 99.99% would have no reaction?

Guess I should see if google has any answers.


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## lucycat (Jul 12, 2018)

Moose Wrangler - If you don't mind what was the IFRA amount and what product are you making?  Also, what did Brambleberry recommend in their calculator?

I guess I haven't found an issue with Brambleberry because it is primarily a bath and body company and they use their oils for those purposes.  Companies that started as candle fragrance companies have always been the ones I have wanted IFRA reports because they may not have the same testing or even use the fragrances in soap.  

IFRA are European limits on chemical components in fragrances.  You are right that some people do not have a problem with a higher rate but since those safety limits were put in place and wholesalers sell to European markets they follow them and it is hard to justify using more.  For many years I used cinnamon and clove essential oils at rates that are more than IFRA but I don't do that now for products I sell.


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## Lin19687 (Jul 12, 2018)

@lenarenee NO, I do NOT expect all fo's to be made the same.  I just compared 2 FO's that were the same name for comparison on FP and %'s.


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## Moose Wrangler (Jul 12, 2018)

lucycat said:


> Moose Wrangler - If you don't mind what was the IFRA amount and what product are you making?  Also, what did Brambleberry recommend in their calculator?



The FO was Bay Rum and the IFRA for soap (I'm doing cold process) is 5%. Max'ing out has it at 0.8 oz PPO (pretty normal recommendation for FO usage). I screenshot the recommendation rates from Brambleberry, for strong they list 0.8.

I know the 5% won't be considered a low allowance rate by many soapers but I've previously only used EO's as I was into those before venturing into soaping. I'm just not at a comfort level with FO's where I want to use something that IFRA says should be less than 10%, it's just an additional built in safety and peace of mind tool for me.

For what it's worth, the lowest rate on FO's that I've seen was 2% and the highest was 47%.


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## lucycat (Jul 12, 2018)

I think it is hard to find a fragrance oil that has a spicy base with a high IFRA amount.   They are also the ones I struggle with but clove and ceinnamon EO's so restricted any usage at all in the fragrance oil will cause the IFRA to be low.  At least it is 5% and not the .5 and.8% I have seen that aren't usable at all for soap.


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## lenarenee (Jul 12, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> @lenarenee NO, I do NOT expect all fo's to be made the same.  I just compared 2 FO's that were the same name for comparison on FP and %'s.



Then I'm still confused by your question.


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## lenarenee (Jul 12, 2018)

Moose Wrangler said:


> I realized this very thing today, sigh. I have a package showing up soon so I contacted Brambleberry for the IFRA report. To their credit they got it to me within a few hours (I'm impressed) but given how low the allowable rate of one FO is I probably won't even use it now.
> 
> It's odd to me that it's not on the site like so many other providers. I probably won't buy FO's from them again unless they start including the information on their website. Love the customer service and that it's a WA company but I don't want to have to email them every time I'm interested in an FO.
> 
> Lesson learned.



Another forum member contacted Brambleberry and it was determined that their fragrance calculator was calculated with the IFRA rates. (I haven't confirmed this myself yet. Just for peace of mind.)


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## Lin19687 (Jul 12, 2018)

I wasn't the OP, I don't have a question.  I don't buy my Fo's from BB
I buy from NG as they list what I need to know on the product, even *Phthalate-Free*, *CA Prop 65 Reportable Ingredients,*
*Flash Point of Fragrance,  *
*Vanillin Content of Fragrance

*


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## Cellador (Jul 13, 2018)

Unless something has changed recently, BB's fragrance calculator provides usage amounts based on total batch size, not per pound of oils.


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## lenarenee (Jul 13, 2018)

Cellador said:


> Unless something has changed recently, BB's fragrance calculator provides usage amounts based on total batch size, not per pound of oils.



That's fixable by simply entering the total weight of your oils.


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