# Honey Soap



## Nutty (Mar 21, 2016)

I was asking about adding beeswax and honey to soap in the recipes section and just wanted to ask here about my recipe (below) before experimenting! Anything I should know, or be wary of before something blows up in my face from mixing? :mrgreen:


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## RobertBarnett (Mar 21, 2016)

I have never made soap with honey or beeswax. I do know the honey will cause it to get really hot so be prepared for that. I would melt the honey in the water you are going to use for the lye and then add the lye to it. There was another post on here where the soap ooosed honey because it wasn't added to the right thing St the right time.

Good luck and please let use know how it works out for you.

Robert


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## Susie (Mar 21, 2016)

I would melt the honey in hot water and then add it to the oils before the lye water goes in.  Be sure to subtract the amount of water from the total water.  Honey will definitely heat your soap.  You need to melt your beeswax completely before adding to the rest of the oils.


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## FlybyStardancer (Mar 21, 2016)

I second heating up honey with a bit of water and adding it to your oils. The beeswax will need to be melted at a higher temp, and your oils overall will need to be warmer to keep the beeswax from re-solidifying. Between the warmer oils and the honey, expect that the recipe will move fast (even with all that lard!), and may potentially overheat.


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## dixiedragon (Mar 21, 2016)

Looks fine to me! I melt my beeswax in the microwave with some oil (in this case, you can use your olive oil), then add to my melted oils. Sometimes the oils are too cool and the beeswax will solidify. If that happens, heat the oils on low until the beeswax melts again. Then I add my honey to my oils. I stickblend the oils as I pour in my room-temp lye.


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## IrishLass (Mar 21, 2016)

Did you make your soap yet? I'm probably late to the party, but for what it's worth, everything looks fine to me. 

I think I posted a link to my honey/beeswax thread in your other thread entitled 'All about da bees", but for what it's worth,here's a direct link to the exact post where I explain my honey/beeswax process: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=536352&postcount=16 ), in case you want any extra tips.


IrishLass


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## penelopejane (Mar 25, 2016)

IrishLass said:


> Did you make your soap yet? I'm probably late to the party, but for what it's worth, everything looks fine to me.
> 
> I think I posted a link to my honey/beeswax thread in your other thread entitled 'All about da bees", but for what it's worth,here's a direct link to the exact post where I explain my honey/beeswax process: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=536352&postcount=16 ), in case you want any extra tips.
> 
> ...



Hi Irish Lass, 

I have read a few of your posts on honey and SF and Salt bars. Thank you so much for all the detail you put into your posts.  I am still a little confused.  

If I add honey it reduces the SF by 40% of the amount of honey used. 
Is that right? But it increases lather? (unless you go higher than the magical point or use milk)

If I add CA and add the extra lye does this makes it SF neutral? This just effects the scum not the lather or conditioning.

Does aiming for 0% SF mean I will get a low scum soap?
Is this a good aim or should one be aiming for a higher SF for the soap to be more conditioning on your skin?

Or is adjusting SF all about lather and not about conditioning on your skin?


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## IrishLass (Mar 25, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Hi Irish Lass,
> 
> I have read a few of your posts on honey and SF and Salt bars. Thank you so much for all the detail you put into your posts. I am still a little confused.
> 
> ...


 
From what I understand from good Gent *Here*, I believe it will reduce the amount of active lye by 40% of the amount of honey used, which would then actually increase the superfat. For example: I used honey at 5% ppo in my soap...... 40% of 5% = 2%..... so, 2% the available lye that should have gone to saponify my oils got eaten by the honey so to speak, which means I was left with a 2% increase in superfat (i.e., instead of an overall 6% superfat, I ended up with a 8% superfat). However, my soap's lathering abilities were still greater than what I normally experience in that particular formula as compared to when I don't use honey in it......unless I also use milk with the honey, that is. lol I hope that made sense. If not, let me know! 





penelopejane said:


> If I add CA and add the extra lye does this makes it SF neutral? This just effects the scum not the lather or conditioning.


 
If you are also going to use honey in your soap, the extra lye you add to compensate for the CA might actually make it so that things break even....but I'm not completely 100% sure on that as I've never used CA in my soap and am not sure how much extra lye one needs to use with CA. Hopefully someone with more experience with CA will chime in on that. 




penelopejane said:


> Does aiming for 0% SF mean I will get a low scum soap?
> Is this a good aim or should one be aiming for a higher SF for the soap to be more conditioning on your skin?
> 
> Or is adjusting SF all about lather and not about conditioning on your skin


 
From what I'm able to understand, I don't believe superfat has much if any bearing on soap scum (hopefully someone will chime in to confirm or deny), although high superfats may cause a bit of gunky/oily build-up in your pipes, which is different than soap scum. Soap scum forms when the minerals in hard water (such as calcium) react with the sodium salts in the soap. This reaction forms an insoluble salt/soap, better known as the nefarious soap scum. Basically, scum will form no matter what your superfat %, if you have hard water. But chelators such as CA or tetrasodium EDTA will help bind with the minerals to combat that, which in turn frees things up so that your soap lathers better.

Speaking only for myself, when I consider how high or low of a superfat to use in my formulas, the foremost thing in my mind is how conditioning or drying my finished soap will feel to my skin. Secondary to that (but also just as important to me and mine) is how bubbly they turn out. For what it's worth, I superfat my soaps anywhere from 3% to 20% depending on the formula, and to combat soap scum, I use tetrasodium EDTA (which does not affect my superfat).


IrishLass


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## RobertBarnett (Mar 25, 2016)

After reading up about tetrasodium EDTA I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

Robert


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## MapRef41N93W (Mar 25, 2016)

Wouldn't adding the honey during the hot phase defeat the purpose of using honey? Honey breaks down at 160 degrees Fahrenheit destroying most the enzymes that make honey a strong nutrient (for both the inside and outside of the body). The exothermic reaction of lye and water goes well beyond that temperature. If you have to have honey in your soap (I suppose I could see a purpose for hard soap) I would just say not to waste money buying an expensive raw honey as its going to basically be turned into processed honey anyways during that reaction with the lye.


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## IrishLass (Mar 25, 2016)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't use raw honey in my soap (I do eat it, though).


IrishLass


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## Susie (Mar 26, 2016)

RobertBarnett said:


> After reading up about tetrasodium EDTA I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
> 
> Robert



That is certainly your prerogative.  However, on the off chance that you read some of the more...shall we say...alarmist...articles available on the internet, here is a fairly unbiased article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylenediaminetetraacetic_acid

I am not trying to influence you one way or the other, but I would hate to see you fall prey to some of the less factual websites out there.


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## RobertBarnett (Mar 26, 2016)

Interesting read. Still don't know if I would use it.

Robert


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## lsg (Mar 26, 2016)

I think it is always best to use tact when posting.  If you don't like an ingredient, then don't use it.


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## penelopejane (Mar 26, 2016)

Irish Lass, 
thank you so much for your explanation. I have been trying for 7 months to perfect creamy lather to be told just yesterday that my DH prefers bubbles! Back to the drawing board for me. 

Map reference, 
I do not add my honey to lye. I only ever use raw honey (it's difficult to find honey with additives in Oz) and mostly I use Manuka honey.  I let the lye react with some water and cool but reserve a fair bit of the water to mix with honey, colours, salt and CA.  I then add that to my oils and melted hard butters and SB. Then with my lye fairly cool I add it to the oils. 

This way my soap isn't coloured brown (even plain sugar goes brown for me added to lye and I can't get salt to fully dissolve if I add it to lye) there are no spots or swirls of honey or salt or hard oils in my finished soap.  If I want spots I don't dissolve the salt first. 

I again tried to add everything to the lye just the other day because others say they can but my finished soap has brown dots. 

What I find annoying about soap is that two people can have a different experience with a method and a final soap and I don't think it comes down to  variation of description. 

I think you have to find something (method or final properties- that may take 6-24 months to appear) that works for you, then tweek it until it is great.


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## ngian (Mar 26, 2016)

For the technical stuff of citric acid:

6 g extra lye for every 10 g citric acid


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## IrishLass (Mar 28, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Irish Lass,
> thank you so much for your explanation. I have been trying for 7 months to perfect creamy lather to be told just yesterday that my DH prefers bubbles! Back to the drawing board for me.


 
LOL. Don't you just hate it when that happens! 



penelopejane said:


> Map reference,
> I do not add my honey to lye. I only ever use raw honey (it's difficult to find honey with additives in Oz) and mostly I use Manuka honey.


 
I love Manuka honey. I always keep a small jar on hand for medicinal uses. If anyone in my family comes down with a sore throat in the winter-time, it really helps to knock it right out. It's very expensive here, though- having to be imported from overseas and all. We treat it like a precious treasure that should only be used in case of emergencies. 




penelopejane said:


> What I find annoying about soap is that two people can have a different experience with a method and a final soap and I don't think it comes down to variation of description.
> 
> I think you have to find something (method or final properties- that may take 6-24 months to appear) that works for you, then tweek it until it is great.


 
True that. I think that a lot of the variation in experiences from soaper to soaper may very likely have much to do with the different, specific make-up of our ingredients, and/or where/when they are sourced.


IrishLass


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## dixiedragon (Mar 28, 2016)

MapRef41N93W said:


> Wouldn't adding the honey during the hot phase defeat the purpose of using honey? Honey breaks down at 160 degrees Fahrenheit destroying most the enzymes that make honey a strong nutrient (for both the inside and outside of the body). The exothermic reaction of lye and water goes well beyond that temperature. If you have to have honey in your soap (I suppose I could see a purpose for hard soap) I would just say not to waste money buying an expensive raw honey as its going to basically be turned into processed honey anyways during that reaction with the lye.


 
Unless you hot process the soap, the lye is still very present and active, even at trace. Also, soap is a wash-off product, so I doubt the goodies in honey would have much chances to benefit the skin. In soap, I think raw honey vs processed honey comes down to label appeal. I use raw honey, b/c I don't want to bother with 2 separate jars of honey - eating honey vs soaping honey.


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## penelopejane (Mar 28, 2016)

Processed honey has been heated and if a product of China or India may contain antibiotics and heavy metals. I have not seen this in Oz. 

I am in the group who believes the skin absorbs ingredients in soap especially when in a hot steamy shower or bath.


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## MapRef41N93W (Mar 28, 2016)

dixiedragon said:


> Unless you hot process the soap, the lye is still very present and active, even at trace. Also, soap is a wash-off product, so I doubt the goodies in honey would have much chances to benefit the skin. In soap, I think raw honey vs processed honey comes down to label appeal. I use raw honey, b/c I don't want to bother with 2 separate jars of honey - eating honey vs soaping honey.



Lye being present doesn't have any effect on the honey itself. It's the exothermic heat in the reaction with the water that would process the honey from its natural state into basically liquid fructose. 

What's the purpose of using honey then if not for the benefits to the skin? It won't make your soap any thicker once it's been melted and processed. It would give your soap a distinct color I guess but not much else.

The best way I could see for using honey would be to add it after the lye/water reaction and then add a preservative to ensure your soap doesn't go rancid. Though if you are against using preservatives you should just skip the honey all together. I'm not completely sure on hard soaps, but I assume those don't have enough water in them to aid bacteria and thus honey may be useful there.


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## IrishLass (Mar 28, 2016)

MapRef41N93W said:


> What's the purpose of using honey then if not for the benefits to the skin?


 
For the most part, people use honey in lye-based soap formulas for it's ability to enhance bubbly lather, which it does in a wonderfully fantastic way. Speaking only for myself and my own formulas, besides the increased bubblage, I find it also adds somewhat of a bit of a hydrating factor. I can definitely tell which of my soaps has honey in it, and which ones do not.


IrishLass


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## dixiedragon (Mar 28, 2016)

MapRef41N93W said:


> What's the purpose of using honey then if not for the benefits to the skin? It won't make your soap any thicker once it's been melted and processed. It would give your soap a distinct color I guess but not much else.


 
I like the color and the very mild sweet scent from honey soap. I love the feel - don't know if that's the honey or the beeswax, b/c I always use those together. And then there's label appeal.

Also, if you are trying to soap with local ingredients, honey is a good substitution for sugar to boost bubbles.


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## SuzieOz (Mar 28, 2016)

Yup, what dixiedragon said!


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 28, 2016)

MapRef41N93W said:


> Lye being present doesn't have any effect on the honey itself. It's the exothermic heat in the reaction with the water that would process the honey from its natural state into basically liquid fructose.



Lye does indeed react with honey, so honey soaps contain an additional superfat unless you compensate for that. Honey is mostly a syrup of reducing sugars that, unlike sucrose, react with lye. The lye will also denature those proteins (enzymes) you mentioned earlier, as will the hydrochloric acid in your stomach. Enzymes are not nutrients beyond being proteins. Honey is a poor source of that, though it does provide the flood of simple carbohydrates that we all so desperately need.


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## reinbeau (Mar 28, 2016)

MapRef41N93W said:


> Lye being present doesn't have any effect on the honey itself. It's the exothermic heat in the reaction with the water that would process the honey from its natural state into basically liquid fructose.
> 
> What's the purpose of using honey then if not for the benefits to the skin? It won't make your soap any thicker once it's been melted and processed. It would give your soap a distinct color I guess but not much else.
> 
> The best way I could see for using honey would be to add it after the lye/water reaction and then add a preservative to ensure your soap doesn't go rancid. Though if you are against using preservatives you should just skip the honey all together. I'm not completely sure on hard soaps, but I assume those don't have enough water in them to aid bacteria and thus honey may be useful there.


I use my own raw honey and would never add it to the lye.  Always at trace.  But I'm a bit confused as to why you need a preservative - honey will not make your soap rancid.  If anything its antifungal and antimicrobial properties will keep anything like that from happening.


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## coffeetime (Mar 29, 2016)

In my experience, honey does not accelerate or add to rancidity in CP soap at all. My bars with or without honey last the same. And it does add to the bubble factor substantially. It also doesn't act as an antifungal or anything else, because it gets broken down into basically Sugar by the lye monster.


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## TeresaT (Mar 30, 2016)

Susie said:


> That is certainly your prerogative.  However, on the off chance that you read some of the more...shall we say...alarmist...articles available on the internet, here is a fairly unbiased article:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylenediaminetetraacetic_acid
> 
> I am not trying to influence you one way or the other, but I would hate to see you fall prey to some of the less factual websites out there.



Susie, thanks for this article.  Now I know what exactly that is, I may be more inclined to use it. The sodium citrate isn't dissolving well for me for some reason; probably because my "room temperature" right now averages 65 degrees.  The citric acid works great, but there's that extra bit of lye to add to offset it.  EDTA may actually work better as a chelator than either of those two and it seems that it would be easier to use.  I'll have to find a small amount and try it out.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 30, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> The citric acid works great, but there's that extra bit of lye to add to offset it.  EDTA may actually work better as a chelator than either of those two and it seems that it would be easier to use.  I'll have to find a small amount and try it out.



I think you'll like using it. Let me know if you need a sample.


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## KristaY (Mar 30, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Susie, thanks for this article.  Now I know what exactly that is, I may be more inclined to use it. The sodium citrate isn't dissolving well for me for some reason; probably because my "room temperature" right now averages 65 degrees.  The citric acid works great, but there's that extra bit of lye to add to offset it.  EDTA may actually work better as a chelator than either of those two and it seems that it would be easier to use.  I'll have to find a small amount and try it out.



I just started using EDTA about 10 days ago and so far so good. I like that it's a chelator, plus will help avoid DOS. I tried adding it to the lye water but it wouldn't dissolve completely. I decided to remove a bit of water from my lye water volume and dissolve the EDTA in it separately. Once dissolved then I add it to my lye water. Since my batches aren't old enough to use yet, I don't have an opinion on how it works but I'm hopeful! I bought 1 lb at Lotion Crafter for $11.95 and use only a few grams per batch, which comes out to about 15 cents per batch.


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## dixiedragon (Mar 31, 2016)

reinbeau said:


> I use my own raw honey and would never add it to the lye. Always at trace. But I'm a bit confused as to why you need a preservative - honey will not make your soap rancid. If anything its antifungal and antimicrobial properties will keep anything like that from happening.


 
Also, I'm wondering what kind of preservative you would add to CP soap? I think it is used in liquid soap b/c liquid soap has a lot of water?


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## dixiedragon (Mar 31, 2016)

BTW, all this talk of honey made me think of "Chalice" by Robin McKinley. The main character is a beekeeper and uses honey as the basis for her magic.


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## TeresaT (Mar 31, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I think you'll like using it. Let me know if you need a sample.


 
Thanks!  That's sweet of you.  I think the supplier in my area has it.  I'll check with her.  If not, I might message you for a trade of some sort.



KristaY said:


> I just started using EDTA about 10 days ago and so far so good. I like that it's a chelator, *plus will help avoid DOS*. I tried adding it to the lye water but it wouldn't dissolve completely. I decided to remove a bit of water from my lye water volume and dissolve the EDTA in it separately. Once dissolved then I add it to my lye water. Since my batches aren't old enough to use yet, I don't have an opinion on how it works but I'm hopeful! I bought 1 lb at Lotion Crafter for $11.95 and use only a few grams per batch, which comes out to about 15 cents per batch.


 
That's what I found appealing about it.  I've only had one small incident of DOS so far, but you never know, right?   My only concern is that I use master batched lye solution.  Will it dissolve in that?  

I was trying to figure out how to make a 60% SC solution that I could use with my batches. One of TOMHs  other posts mentioned SC being a 60% solution, I think.  C(ould be mistaken, though.)   However, I'm thinking that would be 60 gm SC and 40 gm distilled water to make a 100 gm solution; but would the SC actually dissolve in so little water?  It does not seem to want to dissolve _at all_ in my house.  If I heated the water to make it dissolve, will it just fall out of the solution again when the solution cools down again?  I remember from HS that some things do that when they have higher melting points and then cool back down.  "Precipitate" I vaguely remember it being called?  OK.  Now my brain hurts.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 31, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Thanks!  That's sweet of you.  I think the supplier in my area has it.  I'll check with her.  If not, I might message you for a trade of some sort.


 
Sure, but don't hesitate to ask. A little baggie will get you far without making a big dent in my stash, so no trade required.



TeresaT said:


> That's what I found appealing about it.  I've only had one small incident of DOS so far, but you never know, right?   My only concern is that I use master batched lye solution.  Will it dissolve in that?
> 
> I was trying to figure out how to make a 60% SC solution that I could use with my batches. One of TOMHs  other posts mentioned SC being a 60% solution, I think.  C(ould be mistaken, though.)   However, I'm thinking that would be 60 gm SC and 40 gm distilled water to make a 100 gm solution; but would the SC actually dissolve in so little water?



It's sodium lactate solution that comes as 60%. I think maybe the best you could do with sodium citrate is 40% based on its published solubility.

Tetrasodium EDTA is supposed to dissolve well in alkaline solutions including lye, but I haven't tried it. I'll give it a try when I get back from my trip tomorrow. Normally I dissolve it in plain water, which is almost immediate. If you are using a 50% master lye, you could dissolve it in the additional water for each batch. I think IL just makes a separate solution and uses that.

In general, your impression is right that making a saturated solution at an elevated temperature results in the solute precipitating out -- sooner or later -- when the solution cools down. Like weather precipitation, the solute sometimes comes raining down to the bottom of the container.


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## KristaY (Mar 31, 2016)

Theresa, if you decide to use EDTA and premix it, here's IL's procedure she wrote out in my Questions Re: EDTA Use thread. See post #4:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58975


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