# Adding Coconut Milk to Cold Process Soaps



## Kimberly6891 (Jun 22, 2020)

Hello - I've went through some of the posts and wasn't able to find an answer to this question.  I think if I spend more time searching it out, I may, but I wanted to make this soap today and I'm in a 'crunch'.

I wanted to start adding coconut milk to my soaps, but can't seem to find HOW.  I mean, do I take away part of the water to adjust for the coconut milk/liquid?  I just dont know how to incorporate the milk in my recipe - I dont see any recipe calculator that includes a 'milk' as part of an ingredient.  I have, what I feel is a perfect recipe and dont want to just pour the milk in without first knowing how it would affect my recipe.

Any advise would be so appreciated.


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## jcandleattic (Jun 22, 2020)

Search "split method" or "milk soaps" and a ton of threads should come up for you to search on. Everybody does milk soaps a little differently, so reading on the different methods will help you decide which method to do.


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## shunt2011 (Jun 22, 2020)

I use milk in almost all my soaps.   I mix my lye with an equal amount of water that is required for the batch.   I then add the difference in milk and blend that into my oils.  So, if your recipe calls for 6.5 ounce of water and 3 oz of lye you would mix your lye with 3 oz of water and add the difference 3.5 oz in milk to your oils.  Mix well and then add your cooled lye mixture.   You'll want to check it for overheating periodically other wise just let it do it's thing.  Or some put it in the fridge or freezer (I've never done it).   I just cover it and let it gel.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 22, 2020)

You have to do the math yourself to know what part of the coconut milk is fat and what is water. There are too many "coconut milk" products out there for it to be a standard item in a calc. You have to look at the nutrition labels, do a little math, and adjust the rest of your ingredients accordingly. Here's a longer explanation -- Soapy Stuff: Nutrition labels


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## dsend (Nov 3, 2021)

Hello, everyone.

I am new to soap making, but I have used coconut milk in all of my CPOP batches, thus far.  I have also been looking for a good way to incorporate milk without having to freeze the milk ahead of time.  I have been adding the milk into SoapCalc as a percentage. Since my coconut milk is room temp, I add it to my oils, and mix, just before adding my lye solution.  I have not had any issues (4 batches).  My second batch should be finished curing within the week. 

Thoughts on this?   

I think I will try shunt2011's technique next week.


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## lenarenee (Nov 3, 2021)

You can also just skip the liquid form of coconut milk, and use dehydrated coconut milk.  I mix directly into the oils before adding lye solution. Then you don't have to worry about water calculations.


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## LynetteO (Nov 3, 2021)

shunt2011 said:


> I use milk in almost all my soaps.   I mix my lye with an equal amount of water that is required for the batch.   I then add the difference in milk and blend that into my oils.  So, if your recipe calls for 6.5 ounce of water and 3 oz of lye you would mix your lye with 3 oz of water and add the difference 3.5 oz in milk to your oils.  Mix well and then add your cooled lye mixture.   You'll want to check it for overheating periodically other wise just let it do it's thing.  Or some put it in the fridge or freezer (I've never done it).   I just cover it and let it gel.


I have made 3 batches of ZNSC using this method. Works great. I’ve used goat milk & coconut milk.


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## CreativeWeirdo (Nov 3, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> You can also just skip the liquid form of coconut milk, and use dehydrated coconut milk.  I mix directly into the oils before adding lye solution. Then you don't have to worry about water calculations.


how much coconut milk powder do you add to your batch?  what is your ratio?


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## LynetteO (Nov 3, 2021)

CreativeWeirdo said:


> how much coconut milk powder do you add to your batch?  what is your ratio?


I’ve also used coconut milk powder & I added 1/2 tsp PPO.


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## dsend (Nov 3, 2021)

LynetteO said:


> I have made 3 batches of ZNSC using this method. Works great. I’ve used goat milk & coconut milk.


What is ZNSC?



DeeAnna said:


> You have to do the math yourself to know what part of the coconut milk is fat and what is water. There are too many "coconut milk" products out there for it to be a standard item in a calc. You have to look at the nutrition labels, do a little math, and adjust the rest of your ingredients accordingly. Here's a longer explanation -- Soapy Stuff: Nutrition labels


Thank you for the link!!!!!


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## LynetteO (Nov 3, 2021)

dsend said:


> What is ZNSC?


ZNSC is a most fantabulous soap recipe created by @Zany_in_CO. 
Link: Zany's no slime castile
The recipe calls for a 1.7:1 water to lye ratio using a faux sea water.


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## TheGecko (Nov 4, 2021)

I’ve used both Goat and Coconut Milks.  100% water replacement.  Both milks were frozen.  I have some powdered GMS, but haven’t tried it yet.  And I don’t worry about the ‘fat’ content of either, but that’s just me.


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## Trinbago27 (Nov 4, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> You can also just skip the liquid form of coconut milk, and use dehydrated coconut milk.  I mix directly into the oils before adding lye solution. Then you don't have to worry about water calculations.


Is the issue of scorching still at play here? Will the batter still get brown?


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## AliOop (Nov 4, 2021)

Trinbago27 said:


> Is the issue of scorching still at play here? Will the batter still get brown?


I don't get any scorching or browning when using milk powders. I also mix mine directly into the oils before adding the lye solution. Do make sure the milk powders are mixed in very thoroughly to avoid white streaks in the soap.


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## lenarenee (Nov 4, 2021)

Trinbago27 said:


> Is the issue of scorching still at play here? Will the batter still get brown?



Not in my experience, and I've made dozens of batches with coconut milk, including salt bars which get very hot.


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## CreativeWeirdo (Nov 4, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> I’ve used both Goat and Coconut Milks.  100% water replacement.  Both milks were frozen.  I have some powdered GMS, but haven’t tried it yet.  And I don’t worry about the ‘fat’ content of either, but that’s just me.



Does the "fat" in the coconut milk not create a saponification reaction?


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## TheGecko (Nov 4, 2021)

CreativeWeirdo said:


> Does the "fat" in the coconut milk not create a saponification reaction?



My apologies for not being clearer.  What I mean is that I don’t calculate/account for the fat in my milks.


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## CreativeWeirdo (Nov 4, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> My apologies for not being clearer.  What I mean is that I don’t calculate/account for the fat in my milks.


I understood regarding the calculations; I think MY question was not clear.  You mentioned you replace ALL the water in your lye-water solution with frozen milk.  When you create that solution, does it not saponify?


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## TheGecko (Nov 5, 2021)

CreativeWeirdo said:


> I understood regarding the calculations; I think MY question was not clear.  You mentioned you replace ALL the water in your lye-water solution with frozen milk.  When you create that solution, does it not saponify?



Yes and no.  The Sodium Hydroxide does start to bind (aka saponify) with the fats in the milk in the same way that it starts to bind when you add your Lye Solution to your melted oils/butters, but it's not instant soap...it's more of a pancake batter consistency.  Now some folks will run their milk-based Lye Solution through a mesh strainer and use a rubber/silicone spatula or spoon to force it through and break up the small bits...I never bothered to dirty another dish since I was going to be stick blending.  Personal preference.


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## CreativeWeirdo (Nov 5, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Yes and no.  The Sodium Hydroxide does start to bind (aka saponify) with the fats in the milk in the same way that it starts to bind when you add your Lye Solution to your melted oils/butters, but it's not instant soap...it's more of a pancake batter consistency.  Now some folks will run their milk-based Lye Solution through a mesh strainer and use a rubber/silicone spatula or spoon to force it through and break up the small bits...I never bothered to dirty another dish since I was going to be stick blending.  Personal preference.


OH!  Now I get it!  Thank you!

Do you use your lye-milk solution right away?  Or do you make it in advance?  I like to make my lye-water solutions in advance, more for the easier clean-up; the cooling time is really just an extra bonus for me.


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## TheGecko (Nov 5, 2021)

CreativeWeirdo said:


> Do you use your lye-milk solution right away? Or do you make it in advance? I like to make my lye-water solutions in advance, more for the easier clean-up; the cooling time is really just an extra bonus for me.



Have to.  Remember, the milk has fat that that lye is binding to, so the longer it is left, the more it would saponify and eventually turn into soap...a really, REALLY lye heavy soap.

It takes me about 30 minutes to make my GM Lye Solution. If first let the bowl with the cubes chill thoroughly in the ice batch and then start adding in the Sodium Hydroxide and stirring well and then letting it sit to cool back down again. In between, I'm going other stuff so it's not I'm just sitting there.

I do Master Batch my regular Lye Solution...I make up a gallon or two of ready-to-use at a time, cap it tightly, keep it in the back of my soap cart.  Don't forget to clean and dry the cap and spot after you're done to keep a tight seal.  I also Master Batch my oils/butters and clean up is a breeze because I clean up as I go.  Nothing worse than going through a mad soap session and having to face a mountain of dirty dishes.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 17, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> Have to.  Remember, the milk has fat that that lye is binding to, so the longer it is left, the more it would saponify and eventually turn into soap...a really, REALLY lye heavy soap.



Thanks for answering that question, which occurred to me yesterday as I was buying a can of coconut milk. 

Why add coconut milk at all? What properties does it give to soap?


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## TheGecko (Apr 17, 2022)

DianaMoon said:


> Why add coconut milk at all? What properties does it give to soap?



I have no clue...why add avocado or cucumber or pumpkin or any other number of things?  I did it the first time because I wanted to make an ALL 'coconut' salt soap.  It didn't turn out well, but that doesn't mean anything since 'salt soap' and I don't seem to get along (I have yet to make a decent salt soap).  But I still plan on making another all Coconut Soap...I have the Coconut Milk and the Coconut Oil...just need to get some Coconut FO.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 17, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> I have no clue...why add avocado or cucumber or pumpkin or any other number of things?  I did it the first time because I wanted to make an ALL 'coconut' salt soap.  It didn't turn out well, but that doesn't mean anything since 'salt soap' and I don't seem to get along (I have yet to make a decent salt soap).  But I still plan on making another all Coconut Soap...I have the Coconut Milk and the Coconut Oil...just need to get some Coconut FO.



I think people add those things for marketing purposes. 

I am also interested in making an all coconut bar of soap.


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## AliOop (Apr 17, 2022)

The fat in coconut milk makes for a creamy, non-drying lather. And although it has minimal sugars it seems to increase lather for me, as well. I can feel the difference between soaps with it, and soaps without it.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 17, 2022)

AliOop said:


> The fat in coconut milk makes for a creamy, non-drying lather. And although it has minimal sugars it seems to increase lather for me, as well. I can feel the difference between soaps with it, and soaps without it.



Do you use it as an additive or as a water sub?


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## AliOop (Apr 17, 2022)

I use it for some of the recipe water.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 18, 2022)

Yes - I use the split method - and reduce by superfat to account for the fat in the coconut milk.


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## SoapLover1 (Apr 18, 2022)

lenarenee said:


> You can also just skip the liquid form of coconut milk, and use dehydrated coconut milk.  I mix directly into the oils before adding lye solution. Then you don't have to worry about water calculations.


Hi! 
I concur! This is The Method that I use, too! I personally think it’s best for me! Blessings!


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## DianaMoon (Apr 18, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> Yes - I use the split method - and reduce by superfat to account for the fat in the coconut milk.



Are you very science-y about it, or do you just reduce the superfat by 1% or 2%?


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## TheGecko (Apr 18, 2022)

DianaMoon said:


> Do you use it as an additive or as a water sub?



I do a full water replacement.  I freeze it into cubes like I do my goat milk, but noted that it doesn't react to Lye in the same manner as goat milk because of the lack of sugars.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 18, 2022)

DianaMoon said:


> Are you very science-y about it, or do you just reduce the superfat by 1% or 2%?


I think I was being science-y at the time I worked out my recipe.  I worked out how much of the coconut cream was actually fat, and how much was water and made my split and reduced superfat calculations based on my estimates.  I also increase my lye concentration to 44% in contrast to my usual 30%.  I can't for the life of me figure out why I did that but I've been using that recipe now for over two years and it always works out well, so if it ain't broke...


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## DianaMoon (Apr 18, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> I think I was being science-y at the time I worked out my recipe.  I worked out how much of the coconut cream was actually fat, and how much was water and made my split and reduced superfat calculations based on my estimates.  I also increase my lye concentration to 44% in contrast to my usual 30%.  I can't for the life of me figure out why I did that but I've been using that recipe now for over two years and it always works out well, so if it ain't broke...



OK. I'd do it by just decreasing the superfat to 3% - which is what I'm going to do anyway with my next batch. The extra with the coconut milk couldn't possibly push it up that much.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 18, 2022)

DianaMoon said:


> ...The extra with the coconut milk couldn't possibly push it up that much.



Depending on the particular product you buy, the extra fat supplied in coconut milk can add another 2% to 8% extra fat to your batch. Maybe 2-8% more fat isn't a lot of extra to you, but it would be to me, since I want my soap to have around 2-3% superfat. I crunch the numbers at least once so I know if it's reasonable to ignore a tad of extra fat or if it's smart to do the math every time.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 18, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> Depending on the particular product you buy, the extra fat supplied in coconut milk can add another 2% to 8% extra fat to your batch. Maybe 2-8% more fat isn't a lot of extra to you, but it would be to me, since I want my soap to have around 2-3% superfat. I crunch the numbers at least once so I know if it's reasonable to ignore a tad of extra fat or if it's smart to do the math every time.



That does make a difference! I'm trending towards the lower superfat soap. I do not want 8% superfat.

My coconut milk product has 12 grams of fat in 80 ml (1/3 cup). Do you simply add those grams into the overall weight of the oils?

If I do a batch that's 500 grams of oil, just add 12 grams of fat?

I did an experiment on SoapCalc w/500 and 512 grams of oil. First  I chose 100% olive oil, 3% SF, 33% lye, 1 gram of fragrance, and then 512 grams of oil. It's 65.7/67.28.

HO Safflower oil 500/512 grams is the same: 65.7/67.28

I realize that the fat in coconut milk safflower/olive oil isn't exactly the same as the fat in coconut milk but... that's the limit of my skill set in this area.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 18, 2022)

The fat in coconut milk is coconut oil, not olive oil or safflower. 

Otherwise you're on the right track -- the 12 g of coconut oil that is in the milk is added to your recipe just like you are doing.


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## linne1gi (Apr 19, 2022)

Okay I underst


DeeAnna said:


> Depending on the particular product you buy, the extra fat supplied in coconut milk can add another 2% to 8% extra fat to your batch. Maybe 2-8% more fat isn't a lot of extra to you, but it would be to me, since I want my soap to have around 2-3% superfat. I crunch the numbers at least once so I know if it's reasonable to ignore a tad of extra fat or if it's smart to do the math every time.


I understand you are trying to keep your superfat to 2-3%, but why?  So many soapers use 8-10% and even higher in some countries.


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## AliOop (Apr 19, 2022)

For me, lower superfat means way less soap scum, better lather, less grease to wash off my soap-making utensils dishes, and lower cost per bar.

This is especially true for me since I use high lard recipes. Someone else - maybe @Obsidian? - recently mentioned that they get more soap scum from high-lard soaps. I’ve always thought that as well, so I was glad to have someone else confirm that as their experience, too.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 19, 2022)

@linne1gi -- I also don't perceive my usual bath soap to be more stripping or drying to my skin when made with 2-3% superfat compared with the same soap made with a higher superfat. I can prove the lower superfat soap has more lather. If I saw a measurable benefit to using more superfat in my usual bath soap, I'd definitely increase the superfat. But I see more downsides than advantages, so I don't see any reason for increasing the superfat.

I am well aware other soap makers use much more superfat in their soap, but I don't know the basis for their decision. It may be some soap makers are basing this choice on provable benefits they get from soap made with a higher superfat. It may be others are using soap recipes that would be harsh and stripping to the skin if made with a lower superfat. It's also pretty likely that at least a few are simply following a fad -- "everyone's doing it, so it must be good."

When I mention I use 2-3% superfat, I am not trying to convince people to do as I do. What I _am _trying to do is provide a more nuanced point of view. I don't think it's useful to buy into the "common wisdom" that using more superfat equates to making the soap better or milder or more "conditioning". I have not found a high superfat to be provably better when making soap with a balanced blend of fats. So ... sometimes more superfat can increase mildness, but sometimes it doesn't.


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## Quilter99755 (Apr 19, 2022)

When I found this site I devoured both current and old threads. We had moved to Idaho and bought an older home. One person said that their older home's sewer pipes reacted to a higher superfat and the absence of a chelator. After calling a plumber to clear our pipes I decided to take a clue from that post. We are on well water that is hard so I added a chelator and keep my superfat to 2%. My daughter and I saw an immediate difference in the amount of soap scum left in sinks and tubs and the feeling that the soap rinses off easier from our skin. Since I did it at the same time, I have no idea how much each brought to the table. But we haven't needed to call the plumber back, so I'm a happy camper.  

I can't imagine going back to a high superfat, but have been hesitant to add goats milk or any fat in an additive.  I will definitely add a bookmark to this page so I can figure it out. Thanks @DeeAnna for providing that insight.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 19, 2022)

Superfat has a nice sound (creamy! moisturizing!) that is innately appealing to noobs. 

But in some other thread, I forget which, I read DeAnna's POV and I said to myself, this makes sense. I haven't made a low SF batch yet but I look forward to.


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## Hope Ann (Apr 20, 2022)

linne1gi said:


> Okay I underst
> 
> I understand you are trying to keep your superfat to 2-3%, but why?  So many soapers use 8-10% and even higher in some countries.



Why not?  My soaps work great at 2-3% - they clean without stripping my skin.  Soap scum dropped to nearly nothing without having to add a chelator, it's more bubbly without having to add as much bubble booster, and it actually seems to cure a bit faster too.  Win-win-win.

Hope



AliOop said:


> Someone else - maybe @Obsidian? - recently mentioned that they get more soap scum from high-lard soaps. I’ve always thought that as well, so I was glad to have someone else confirm that as their experience, too.



Add a third agreement.  I'm another lard lover and the low SF has completely changed the way my shower looks.  We have hard water, I don't chelate, but the minimal SF keeps soap scum to a minimum now.  HUGE difference.

Hope


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## DeeAnna (Apr 20, 2022)

I did some more thinking some more about the question @linne1gi asked and wanted to add to my earlier reply to make my answer relate better to the topic of this particular thread --

Whether my usual superfat is 2% or 20%, I'd _still _want to know how much fat there is in the coconut milk. If the fat in the coconut milk adds an additional 8% fat as coconut oil to the batch, that's going to change my fatty acid profile and make the soap harsher. And increasing the superfat by 8% is a big change to the recipe, no matter what superfat a person prefers to use.

If I was a soap maker who prefers to use a 20% superfat in their soap, that still doesn't mean I'm okay with making soap that has 28% superfat. If I use a high-fat coconut milk and ignore that extra fat, that's what I might end up with. A 28% superfat might be way outside the range of superfat I want to use.

I'm reminded of the person who posted here awhile back and made some startling claims about their soap. I reverse-engineered their soap recipe as best I could and estimated the superfat in their soap was around 50%. They shared a photo of someone's hands after washing with this "soap" and I could see visible traces of fat left on the skin. I don't know exactly how much superfat is needed for soap to deposit more fat on the skin than it removes, but it seems reasonable the break point is somewhere between 20% and 50% superfat.


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## linne1gi (Apr 20, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> @linne1gi -- I also don't perceive my usual bath soap to be more stripping or drying to my skin when made with 2-3% superfat compared with the same soap made with a higher superfat. I can prove the lower superfat soap has more lather. If I saw a measurable benefit to using more superfat in my usual bath soap, I'd definitely increase the superfat. But I see more downsides than advantages, so I don't see any reason for increasing the superfat.
> 
> I am well aware other soap makers use much more superfat in their soap, but I don't know the basis for their decision. It may be some soap makers are basing this choice on provable benefits they get from soap made with a higher superfat. It may be others are using soap recipes that would be harsh and stripping to the skin if made with a lower superfat. It's also pretty likely that at least a few are simply following a fad -- "everyone's doing it, so it must be good."
> 
> When I mention I use 2-3% superfat, I am not trying to convince people to do as I do. What I _am _trying to do is provide a more nuanced point of view. I don't think it's useful to buy into the "common wisdom" that using more superfat equates to making the soap better or milder or more "conditioning". I have not found a high superfat to be provably better when making soap with a balanced blend of fats. So ... sometimes more superfat can increase mildness, but sometimes it doesn't.


I do think a lot of people follow someone else's recipe.  Never formulating their own.  Including the superfat.  I learned early on to formulate my own recipes and I love doing that.  I usually use between 4-5% superfat, just because.  I guess I'm used to it.  I add sugar, salt, silk, citric acid and Edta to every recipe.  I think my climate leaves me more prone to DOS (South Florida) and I can't change that, so that is why I add the Edta.  It's really only a miniscule amount, 5 grams per 1000 gram batch.  For citric acid, I use 2% (I tried other percentages and find the 2% works well) - I do the math and add extra NaOH to make up for the amount that is neutralized by the citric.  I would prefer to use sodium citrate with no math involved, but I have a giant amount of citric acid, so I am using that.  Back to the superfat.  I almost always use a high amount of superfat when making a high Coconut oil soap, such as a salt bar, then I use between 20-25%.  I don't notice any real difference between the 20% and the 25%, so I just do whatever I feel like that particular day.  I can imagine that a soap with a 50% superfat, would be very soft as well as oily feeling, as well as go rancid very quickly.  This is a nice discussion.  Thanks to all.



DeeAnna said:


> I did some more thinking some more about the question @linne1gi asked and wanted to add to my earlier reply to make my answer relate better to the topic of this particular thread --
> 
> Whether my usual superfat is 2% or 20%, I'd _still _want to know how much fat there is in the coconut milk. If the fat in the coconut milk adds an additional 8% fat as coconut oil to the batch, that's going to change my fatty acid profile and make the soap harsher. And increasing the superfat by 8% is a big change to the recipe, no matter what superfat a person prefers to use.
> 
> ...


The one thing I don't understand is the statement you made "If the fat in the coconut milk adds an additional 8% fat as coconut oil to the batch, that's going to change my fatty acid profile and make the soap harsher."  I don't understand why additional superfat would make the soap harsher?


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## DeeAnna (Apr 20, 2022)

linne1gi said:


> ...I don't understand why additional superfat would make the soap harsher?



Based on how soap recipe [email protected] calculate the fatty acid profile, if I increase the coconut oil content in my recipe by X% that will almost always change the fatty acid profile. The only time the fatty acid profile would not change if the coconut oil percentage is increased is if the recipe is 100% coconut oil.

It's my understanding the OP isn't talking specifically about a 100% CO soap, so my thinking is based on the assumption that the soap isn't 100% CO. That's why I said "..._If the fat in the coconut milk adds an additional 8% fat as coconut oil to the batch, that's going to change my fatty acid profile_..." because it will. Add X% more CO to a list of fats in a recipe calc, and you'll see the profile change.

As far as the rest of that sentence "_and make the soap harsher_", here's why I think that --

Superfat isn't just made up of undisturbed fat remaining after the saponification reaction is done, although that is how most of us think of it.

Superfat includes some undisturbed fat, some fat molecules that have been partly deconstructed by lye (fats called monoglycerides and diglycerides), as well as some loose fatty acids.

Think of it this way -- lye tears into fats like a tornado plows through buildings. The tornado might leave some buildings undamaged, but most buildings will have some damage and many will be completely destroyed. Likewise with lye -- some of the fat molecules will remain intact, but most will be partially or completely dismantled. This affects the chemical composition of the superfat.

From what I understand, the shorter, simpler fatty acids (lauric and myristic acids from coconut oil) are more likely to be saponified into soap. The longer and more complicated fatty acids like oleic acid are somewhat less likely to be turned into soap. So the superfat is more likely to be higher in oleic acid, whether that's oleic acid bound up in the original triglycerides (aka the original fat) or contained in diglycerides and monoglycerides, or as free fatty acid. The soap molecules are more likely to be higher in lauric and myristic acids. The higher % of lauric and myristic soap molecules would skew the soap into being a harsher cleanser. How much it skews, I can't say for sure.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 20, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> The soap molecules are more likely to be higher in lauric and myristic acids. The higher % of lauric and myristic soap molecules would skew the soap into being a harsher cleanser. How much it skews, I can't say for sure.



So, superfatting doesn't automatically = creamy! (I need to put that exclamation point.) 

It simply means "unsaponified fatty acids" and that can have a variety of different properties, among them, "harshness."

Well, I'll be.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 20, 2022)

I think what what DeeAnna is getting to - is that we all agree too much CO can be harsh right?  So what do you think the fat component is in your coconut milk/cream? Yes, it's CO of course.  By adding coconut milk, you are effectively adding some extra water, some extra CO and some extra sugar to your recipe.

Also to be pointed out that if the coconut milk is 8% fat content, it is not increasing your entire recipe by 8% superfat.  In a 1kg batch of oils/fats if you add 200g of coconut milk at 8% fat content (read the can for details of fat content) you are adding 8% of the 200g as additional fat (i.e 16g of coconut oil).  That 16g of additional coconut oil when added to your 1kg of total oils/fats is a 1.6% addition to your superfat.  Hence if you reduce the overall recipe superfat to about 3% you will come out almost even-stevens to your usual 5% (3% plus the 1.6% = 4.6%).  Remember this is all based on a 1kg batch and the assumption that your coconut milk is 8% fat.  You would need to adjust accordingly for different ratios.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 20, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> I think what what DeeAnna is getting to - is that we all agree too much CO can be harsh right?  So what do you think the fat component is in your coconut milk/cream? Yes, it's CO of course.  By adding coconut milk, you are effectively adding some extra water, some extra CO and some extra sugar to your recipe.
> 
> Also to be pointed out that if the coconut milk is 8% fat content, it is not increasing your entire recipe by 8% superfat.  In a 1kg batch of oils/fats if you add 200g of coconut milk at 8% fat content (read the can for details of fat content) you are adding 8% of the 200g as additional fat (i.e 16g of coconut oil).  That 16g of additional coconut oil when added to your 1kg of total oils/fats is a 1.6% addition to your superfat.  Hence if you reduce the overall recipe superfat to about 3% you will come out almost even-stevens to your usual 5% (3% plus the 1.6% = 4.6%).  Remember this is all based on a 1kg batch and the assumption that your coconut milk is 8% fat.  You would need to adjust accordingly for different ratios.



Thanks! I understand the issue - see my comment yesterday. 

I'd figure out how many actual grams of fat are in the coconut milk and add that to the oils.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 20, 2022)

Yep, you're right -- more superfat doesn't translate into "more creamy". The only thing you know is more superfat = higher percentage of fats and fatty acids in the soap. 

You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 20, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> Yep, you're right -- more superfat doesn't translate into "more creamy". The only thing you know is more superfat = higher percentage of fats and fatty acids in the soap.
> 
> You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification.



Not sure I want to open up this can of worms but from what you're saying, those 20% superfatted coconut oil bars aren't really as creamy and moisturizing as their proponents say they are....


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## DianaMoon (Apr 21, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> Yep, you're right -- more superfat doesn't translate into "more creamy". The only thing you know is more superfat = higher percentage of fats and fatty acids in the soap.
> 
> You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification.



I was embarrassed to ask this yesterday but I overcame my shame: how does this "harshness" physically play out? It's not harshness like little microbeads. What does it do to the skin that seems "harsh"?


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## AliOop (Apr 21, 2022)

DianaMoon said:


> I was embarrassed to ask this yesterday but I overcame my shame: how does this "harshness" physically play out? It's not harshness like little microbeads. What does it do to the skin that seems "harsh"?


The high cleansing value makes it harsh bc it strips so much oil off the skin, leaving it dry and often itchy or scaly.  If the soap also has a high superfat, that may compensate somewhat by leaving behind some unsaponified oil on the skin. However, I prefer to strip away less natural oil and then apply the moisturizer of my choice if and when needed. ☺


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## DianaMoon (Apr 21, 2022)

AliOop said:


> The high cleansing value makes it harsh bc it strips so much oil off the skin, leaving it dry and often itchy or scaly.  If the soap also has a high superfat, that may compensate somewhat by leaving behind some unsaponified oil on the skin. However, I prefer to strip away less natural oil and then apply the moisturizer of my choice if and when needed. ☺



What I get from this is the following, and scientists forgive me if I use human terms to describe a chemical process.

Lye doesn't care about the name of your oil. It just saponifies fatty acids, not oils. For example: X oil and Y oil contain varying amounts of lauric acid. Lye doesn’t care that the lauric acid is in X oil or Y oil – it just saponifies a set amount of lauric - depending on how much lye you add.

If you superfat an oil with a lot of "stripping" oils that don't get saponified - it's not going to create a super-moisturizing product. It will create a super-stripping product.


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## AliOop (Apr 21, 2022)

DianaMoon said:


> If you superfat an oil with a lot of "stripping" oils that don't get saponified - it's not going to create a super-moisturizing product. It will create a super-stripping product.


I agree with everything you wrote until this sentence. Oils that don't get saponified behave differently than the saponified fatty acids from those same oils. 

Example: Coconut oil is often used as a moisturizer for skin and hair. In other words, it is not stripping in its natural state. However, when that same coconut oil comes in contact with lye, the FAs are split off and saponified. It's the saponified FAs that will have the qualities reflected in the soap calc, i.e., cleansing (stripping) and bubbly for CO.  The remaining unsaponified CO will in theory continue to behave the same as it would outside of soap, i.e. moisturizing to the skin. 

But as DeeAnna noted, that isn't entirely true, since the lye may have partially broken it down, even if it isn't fully saponified. Also, you are talking about a small amount of CO supposedly being left on the skin. How much is left after the saponified FAs (the soap) does its cleansing action, is really hard to quantify.

It gets even more complicated for the substantial subset of folks like me, who do not find plain old CO to be moisturizing at all. For me, even plain CO (not saponified) makes my skin and my hair feel dry and greasy at the same time. It just doesn't soak in at all.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 21, 2022)

AliOop said:


> I agree with everything you wrote until this sentence. Oils that don't get saponified behave differently than the saponified fatty acids from those same oils.
> 
> Example: Coconut oil is often used as a moisturizer for skin and hair. In other words, it is not stripping in its natural state. However, when that same coconut oil comes in contact with lye, the FAs are split off and saponified. It's the saponified FAs that will have the qualities reflected in the soap calc, i.e., cleansing (stripping) and bubbly for CO.  The remaining unsaponified CO will in theory continue to behave the same as it would outside of soap, i.e. moisturizing to the skin.
> 
> ...



But that doesn't square with this; "You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification. "

Sounds to me as if DeAnna was saying that the lye breaks down all the oils into their fatty acid constituent parts, and no complete oil is left over.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 21, 2022)

DianaMoon said:


> But that doesn't square with this; "You will never know exactly what kinds of fats and fatty acids are present in the superfat, however, due to the "tornado" action of the lye during saponification. "
> 
> Sounds to me as if DeAnna was saying that the lye breaks down all the oils into their fatty acid constituent parts, and no complete oil is left over.


True -  but they will be oils, and they will be superfat.  The only time you know for sure what your superfat oil is, is when you make 100% CO soap (for example), with 20% superfat.  We can possibly assume if you have a mixture of oils in your recipe, that the superfat will also be a mixture of oils, but we don't exactly what they are or what the ratios of each are. I would assume the fatty acids that saponify slower would be more likely to have a higher ratio in the superfat - but I'm not sure that there's a way to calculate that.


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## AliOop (Apr 21, 2022)

Yes, what @KiwiMoose said.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 21, 2022)

I do not see the superfat as a complete oil that survives saponification. That's not my understanding of this at all:

"So the superfat is more likely to be higher in oleic acid, whether that's oleic acid bound up in the original triglycerides (aka the original fat) or contained in diglycerides and monoglycerides, or as *free fatty acid*. [emphasis added] The soap molecules are more likely to be higher in lauric and myristic acids. The higher % of lauric and myristic soap molecules would skew the soap into being a harsher cleanser. How much it skews, I can't say for sure."

Hopefully DeAnna will clear this up.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 21, 2022)

"..._Sounds to me as if DeAnna was saying that the lye breaks down all the oils into their fatty acid constituent parts, and no complete oil is left ove_r...."

I regret I wasn't clear, @DianaMoon. Ali and Kiwi are doing a better job of explaining. There _will _be _some _of the original fat left in the superfat. I never meant to give that impression that _all _of the original fat is all munched up. Some is, but not all.

I think I'm confusing people more than I"m helping, and for that I'm sorry.

To move on, isn't the _superfat _that make a soap harsh or stripping, it's the _soap _that determine the harshness. 

Soap molecules made from lauric and myristic acids (a soap high in coconut oil, for example) are very efficient at removing an excessive amount of the natural fats and proteins from the surface of the skin. Sensitive or damaged skin is more likely to be reddened and/or irritated by a high lauric-myristsic soap, but even normal skin can get dried out, especially with repeated use of this type of soap. Most people "tame" a soap like this by adding enough extra superfat to interfere with the soap's ability to remove skin oils and proteins. 

Soap that is rich in longer chain fatty acids is not capable of this stripping action. That is why lard soap has traditionally been considered a mild soap for use with children and sensitive or dry skin. Using a superfat with a lard soap doesn't make it less stripping .... it is naturally already that way even with a low or moderate superfat.

I hope this helps clear the waters a bit.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 21, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> "..._Sounds to me as if DeAnna was saying that the lye breaks down all the oils into their fatty acid constituent parts, and no complete oil is left ove_r...."
> 
> I regret I wasn't clear, @DianaMoon. Ali and Kiwi are doing a better job of explaining. There _will _be _some _of the original fat left in the superfat. I never meant to give that impression that _all _of the original fat is all munched up. Some is, but not all.
> 
> ...



No, you're not confusing. I'm really learning a lot. I apologize for being so dense.

I was probably overthinking. Back to what Ali said, if the oil isn't saponified, it survives with its properties intact. To put it simply, if you're doing a single oil soap and you add extra coconut oil, you will end up with unsaponified coconut oil. (If that's not what she said, correct me.) 

What I do not understand is how does it "tame" a soap to add more of an oil which is "stripping"?


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 21, 2022)

DianaMoon said:


> What I do not understand is how does it "tame" a soap to add more of an oil which is "stripping"?


If it was all CO only the saponified oil is stripping.  The (unsaponified) superfat would then be literally like rubbing the raw oil on your skin.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 21, 2022)

Soap is an emulsifier. An emulsifier causes fats, which are normally not water soluble, to become water soluble. This is why soap is able to remove grease and oils from your skin, clothing, or dishes.

When you add superfat to the soap, the soap has to emulsify the superfat as well as emulsify the fats on your skin -- both natural skin oils as well as greasy dirt.

If the soap is so strong that it is removing too much of the desirable natural oils and proteins from the skin, you need to add enough superfat to lessen its effectiveness and make the soap milder to the skin.

Coconut oil soap at zero superfat is often used as a household and dish cleanser as well as a "stain stick" for pretreating spots. It's so strong, however, that people often need to wear gloves when washing dishes so their hands don't dry out.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 21, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> Soap is an emulsifier. An emulsifier causes fats, which are normally not water soluble, to become water soluble. This is why soap is able to remove grease and oils from your skin, clothing, or dishes.
> 
> When you add superfat to the soap, the soap has to emulsify the superfat as well as emulsify the fats on your skin -- both natural skin oils as well as greasy dirt.
> 
> ...



Thank you! Clearly I have to read your pages again, and go back to basics.


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## AliOop (Apr 21, 2022)

You are doing a good job of asking questions, and I for one don't mind answering them because I can tell that you are trying to learn, and that you are doing some research on your own to supplement what we are telling you here. Good job!

One of the concepts that may still be confusing you is that behavior of the oil in question may be very different from pre-saponification to post-saponification. Coconut oil (and its close relatives, palm kernel oil and babassu oil) is not stripping in its natural state. It only becomes stripping (high cleansing) after it is saponified.

Thus, any CO remaining as superfat will not behave the same way that the saponified CO will behave. The saponified CO is actually not CO any more at all - it has been split up into different components, some of which have combined with the lye to make soap.

It is the same with the NaOH.  In its pre-soaping state, the NaOH is very caustic and will burn the skin. But after saponification, it has combined with the FAs into soap molecules, and thus is no longer caustic. Of course, if you have a lye excess, that excess lye will still be caustic because the chemical reaction has not taken place.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 22, 2022)

AliOop said:


> You are doing a good job of asking questions, and I for one don't mind answering them because I can tell that you are trying to learn, and that you are doing some research on your own to supplement what we are telling you here. Good job!



Thanks - sometimes it's hard to know when one is being a PITA and hijacking a thread, or being useful.



> One of the concepts that may still be confusing you is that behavior of the oil in question may be very different from pre-saponification to post-saponification. Coconut oil (and its close relatives, palm kernel oil and babassu oil) is not stripping in its natural state. It only becomes stripping (high cleansing) after it is saponified.



Believe it or not, I actually went to bed thinking about exactly this. We must have had a Vulcan mind meld last night. When I woke up, what you wrote occurred to me - but I'm glad you wrote it.

To be repetitive but concise in case another noob runs across this thread: I had two areas of confusion. 

First, I mis-interpreted DeAnna's "lye-tornado" description as a process that worked on everything in the mix, including the superfat. That was my misunderstanding. 

Second, if CO is stripping then why would adding more of it be soothing? Because it survives the miracle of saponification intact and isn't the same as before. (Apologies to scientists who know it's not a miracle, it's a chemical process, but it's still a *wow-awesome* process, isn't it??) Now I've got to do some more reading about why these fatty acids when saponified are stripping, but when they survive in their whole state as an oil, they are not. (For most people, but that's another story for another day.)

Thank you!


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## DeeAnna (Apr 22, 2022)

It's not the coconut OIL that is stripping. The OIL is nice on skin; it ADDS fat to the surface of the skin which is soothing and protective. Coconut OIL is not able to emulsify and remove natural fats from the skin because it's not soap.

It's the SOAP made from the coconut oil that is stripping and harsh to the skin. The soap is what can emulsify and remove natural skin fats.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 22, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> It's not the coconut OIL that is stripping. The OIL is nice on skin; it ADDS fat to the surface of the skin which is soothing and protective. Coconut OIL is not able to emulsify and remove natural fats from the skin because it's not soap.
> 
> It's the SOAP made from the coconut oil that is stripping and harsh to the skin. The soap is what can emulsify and remove natural skin fats.



And how this happens is what I need to understand. I have to read your pages & Prof. Dunn's book again. I'm sure the answer is in there.

(Side but important point about emulsification: I've never liked the word "trace" - to me it's a meaningless jargon term and sometimes it doesn't apply. Emulsification can look different depending on your oils.  Remembering that saved me angst recently. I mixed a batter that didn't come to trace. At all. Very thin batter. But I remembered something I read here (paraphrasing): stick blending to the point of burning out your unit is useless & unnecessary. This is a chemical process. If the lye & oils are emulsified you're OK. I stick-blended a bit, and then whisked a bit. Yep, it was emulsified. After that, it turned to pudding quite quickly.)


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