# Frustration at other businesses



## spenny92 (Nov 3, 2015)

Admin, feel free to move if this isn't in the appropriate section.

I'm feeling so frustrated with some soap businesses at the moment - I need to rant and for someone to tell me to keep my mouth zipped! I'm a member of a small FB group for NZ Soapmakers - there's less than 50 of us in the group, so it's a nice place to chat and we're not very competitive as we're spread out wide and far, so lots of info-sharing etc.

One woman has a soap business and recently posted about how all she sells is 100% CO soap which her customers love. That's fine, I also love some coconut soap! Then she said she sells it 3 days after its poured because it's hard enough. I piped up to say that regardless of hardness, it really does need a proper cure to be at its best. She replied that she has been in this business for 8 years and must be doing something right as she has great reviews of her products. I'm a relatively new soaper, so I feel awful trying to correct her but even I know that 3 days just isn't a long enough cure for any soap - especially when you're selling!!

Another woman likes to really push hard with the 'all natural' approach. She does HP, sells after a week and only uses EOs. Her Facebook page is crawling with rants about how bad chemicals are, and how her products are 100% natural, good for you etc. I would never market my soap as natural because you wouldn't pluck it from a tree or find it randomly in the woods, you know? I know natural isn't regulated and is meaningless, but customers just lap it up. It just frustrates me that she is always talking down FOs and 'nasty' chemicals - I think she may have forgotten that sodium hydroxide is probably the most important ingredient in her soap, and I wouldn't call that natural...

I'm just frustrated because I love being a part of the group - it's super handy for local suppliers, best prices on things etc, but I am having a really hard time biting my tongue when I see bad info being passed around! I am just so glad that I became a member of this forum before I joined ANY soapy Facebook group. I may be selling 'too early', but these examples just go to show that even if you've been making/selling for years, you can still get it very wrong...

How do you all deal with seeing this? Sorry if this whole post is a bit negative and ranty, I just needed somewhere to post where I didn't have to bite my proverbial tongue...


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## penelopejane (Nov 3, 2015)

Spenny,
Just hide out in this forum. Everyone is very nice. 

I guess you just have to live and let live and hope the karma fairy is alive and well.


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## amd (Nov 3, 2015)

I would (gently) disagree where needed, but you can't ram info down people's throats. Selling is a gentle art. I would make a suggestion to the seller to keep one bar out of her batch and do her own comparison of soap at a week, at a month, at two months...etc. For the benefit of the FB group, of course. When I did my first HP batch, I thought a week was great for a cure, but I kept a couple bars to compare at different intervals... I changed my own mind and will never buy into the "ready to use" again. The older my soap gets the more I fall in love with it. If she really cares about her soap, she'll do the comparison. If she doesn't care about her soap and just wants the money... well, you can't sit on her to make her see the error of her ways.

And sometimes people are just stubborn as all get out and won't listen to anyone. Like me and my dollar store bowls. I love my dollar store bowls they work for me and I don't have problems. Others on this forum disagree and say they aren't safe. I will continue to use my bowls until I do have a problem (which may never happen). On the other side of that, I have $100 worth of other useless stuff that the great and mighty Oz (aka the internet) told me that I should have for soap making. I'm not trying to bash any disagreement on the forum, this is just the example that some times you can tell people good information, but they just aren't going to listen because what they're doing now is working.

My first week on this forum, there was a lot of drama, but I stuck through it and I've learned so much. If your FB group meets a need for you and you can gently disagree and let things drop when needed, then stay. (And then come here where we are always willing to learn from each other and be wrong if needed.)


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## afbrat (Nov 3, 2015)

Well put, amd


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## Susie (Nov 3, 2015)

Any time you get a group of more than two people together, you are going to have disagreements.  You will probably have disagreements with just the two people, also.  It is part of the human condition, I'm afraid.  And we tend to have some sort of contretemps every few months, usually with one of the "hot-button" issues.

You need to feel free enough on any site you are a part of to speak your opinion.  Courteously, as kindly as possible, staying within the bonds of propriety, not using ad-hominem attacks, but yet get heard.  Not everyone has to agree with everyone else.  You should be able to courteously agree to disagree.


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## Relle (Nov 3, 2015)

Spenny as you said '  I may be selling 'too early'. 

We tried to tell you this some time ago, you didn't listen to us and you still went ahead, so it's like the pot calling the kettle black as far as I'm concerned. Now you know what it's like from our end trying to get our messages across, only to find the person you are talking to doesn't really want to listen, 8 yrs soaping or not. We don't waste time with these people anymore.

So I think what you are talking about in this other group about 3 day cures, HP selling after a week, marketing natural soap etc. is the same thing. It all comes down to people will do what they want.


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## spenny92 (Nov 4, 2015)

Seriously? This is not the same thing. Clearly, I know what I'm doing as I am correcting other 'experienced' soapers misinformation. I currently have a great small business, do absolutely everything by the book and am very happy with the response to my product. I haven't done anything wrong or preached any information that would need to be corrected by anyone here - so this is a different situation entirely. You guys may have recommended not to 'sell too early', but I am confident that everyone is ready at different stages - clearly, even a year+ of soaping doesn't automatically make everyone 'ready' to sell.

I'll continue to browse this forum, but I am tiring of the 'selling too early' remarks making their way into every single thing that I say. This thread was about huge no-no's that other, very experienced soapers were making - not me.


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## Susie (Nov 4, 2015)

The point Relle made was valid.  You do something we feel is not wise, regardless of what it is, you have the right to do it, and we have the right to comment on it.  People are still going to do what they want to do, but others still get the right to say something when we see it.  If you don't want criticism, you need to not say anything.  However, if you don't say anything, you will never see other points of view you may learn from.  You need to be open to what others say without taking it personally, and becoming defensive.  Otherwise, you simply are the pot calling the kettle black with your rant above.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 4, 2015)

Tiring of it or not, it's the consensus of the Modmin team and also held by a great number of members, so it will come up. 

They are in that way all related, as AMD put it - if it's working, why will they listen to you? People are buying their soap, so why would they cure  longer? People are buying your soap, so why should you wait before selling? AMD's bowls are working, so why should they change?

Until they start to find sales drying up as their reputation suffers, until you have a situation that you do not have the experience to handle, until AMD's bowls break - no amount of discussion will work, because in each case, from the point of view of the person in question, there is nothing that needs to change.


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## golden_seal (Nov 4, 2015)

You can only express your thoughts and move on, just like you would in real life. You can't force them to change. In this instance you're only stressing yourself out. They don't seem to mind what they're doing. Just focus on your own business and where you would like to be and how you want to educate your customers. You can't always worry about what everyone else is doing, unless you like stress that is.


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## spenny92 (Nov 4, 2015)

Never mind, then. I hoped that I would be able to safely rant on this forum, but obviously not. Funny how I've seen plenty of like-minded posts like my original post, where everyone agrees with the frustration - but because I have been open with the fact that I am selling in my previous posts, I am somehow jumped on and my original point is completely missed. You just cannot pool every single soap seller into the same group and generalise everyone - I feel that is what happens with the 'selling too early' debate. Like I proved in my OP, you can make and sell for 8 years and still be clueless! 

I'll go back to quietly browsing now.


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## Susie (Nov 4, 2015)

Yep, and you can make and sell for just a few months, and be equally clueless.  Clueless knows no boundaries.


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## IrishLass (Nov 4, 2015)

Spenny- this Stickie may be of help as to why the subject of selling lye-based soap too early elicits the responses that it does on the forum: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56833

Truly, none of us is trying to be a killjoy over this issue. The subject of selling too soon is actually a hot-button issue on just about every soaping forum of which I've ever been a member, and the reasons are not so much personal-related as they are product-related, so please don't take it personal. 

What I'm trying to say is that lye-based soap can be a very quirky substance indeed and can turn on you when you least expect it. A soap that seems great 3 to 4 months or more out of the mold can all of a sudden turn wonky or Dossy overnight. Every one of us long-term soapers can attest to that, and so when we read about someone new to the craft selling within 4 months or so from making their first batch, it's hard to remain silent, much in the same way that it would be hard for a parent to remain silent when they see their texting child about to walk into oncoming traffic without looking up from their phone. They can't see but what's right in front of them at the moment (their phone screen) to be able to see what's beyond. 

True, a person can make gobs and gobs of soap in a few months time and really get the process down and make awesome soap that people love, but do they know how well their soap will stand up over 6 months to a year when exposed to different conditions? That's where the rubber really meets the road. With some products that might not be so much of an an issue, but the quirky nature of lye based soap is such that it can become huge issue. Huge enough to even make or break a business. 

So, no matter how many times the subject of selling too early comes up, don't be surprised if it doesn't go unanswered in some way by those who have gone before and have picked themselves up from the pitfalls. 


IrishLass


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## golden_seal (Nov 4, 2015)

That's a good post, IrishLass! I've been using glass for the lye mixture for years and never had one explode. I didn't even think of that happening! I guess I'll be using stainless steel from now on


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## lionprincess00 (Nov 4, 2015)

golden_seal said:


> That's a good post, IrishLass! I've been using glass for the lye mixture for years and never had one explode. I didn't even think of that happening! I guess I'll be using stainless steel from now on



I got a medium stainless steel bowl from Wal-Mart for lye, and a larger one for directly heating onto the stove for oils. Price wasn't bad.


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## Krystalbee (Nov 4, 2015)

golden_seal said:


> That's a good post, IrishLass! I've been using glass for the lye mixture for years and never had one explode. I didn't even think of that happening! I guess I'll be using stainless steel from now on



I also started out with a pyrex pitcher for my lye water solution.  I now use a stainless steel milk frothing pitcher that I found on amazon for like 15$. While I love it, it gets super hot, so I know always put it in an ice bath.


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## Susie (Nov 4, 2015)

I use "bain marie" SS containers from a restaurant supply store that are used on steam tables or salad bars.  The large one cost $11, and the small one cost $8 (I think).  They are wonderful:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B013S1M8HK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## IrishLass (Nov 4, 2015)

Those look awesome Susie! I've recently been looking for something just like that! Thank you for sharing!


IrishLass


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 4, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Those look awesome Susie! I've recently been looking for something just like that! Thank you for sharing!
> 
> 
> IrishLass





Susie said:


> I use "bain marie" SS containers from a restaurant supply store that are used on steam tables or salad bars.  The large one cost $11, and the small one cost $8 (I think).  They are wonderful:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B013S1M8HK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


I've looked at those too. They look incredibly easy to work with and clean, and I happen to have a local source that might be able to hook me up with some second hand ones for cheapo If not, I also have a restaurant supply place in the local area that I could hit up.


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## Relle (Nov 5, 2015)

Susie said:


> Yep, and you can make and sell for just a few months, and be equally clueless.  Clueless knows no boundaries.



Also, with age, comes wisdom.


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## afbrat (Nov 5, 2015)

Relle said:


> Also, with age, comes wisdom.




Not necessarily, unfortunately.


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## kumudini (Nov 5, 2015)

afbrat said:


> Not necessarily, unfortunately.



I don't know if there is a standard against which you measure wisdom, but I do know that people get better with age, whatever their starting point may be.


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## afbrat (Nov 5, 2015)

kumudini said:


> I don't know if there is a standard against which you measure wisdom, but I do know that people get better with age, whatever their starting point may be.




Yes, I do agree with that. I guess maybe I should have maybe said that a few people will always choose to not use their wisdom. That old saying there's one in every crowd.


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## IrishLass (Nov 5, 2015)

afbrat said:


> Yes, I do agree with that. I guess maybe I should have maybe said that a few people will always choose to not use their wisdom. That old saying there's one in every crowd.


 
True that. ^^^^


IrishLass


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## Susie (Nov 5, 2015)

Yeah, unfortunately age does not always bring wisdom.  Adversity more often does, however.  Most people at least learn not to repeat their own mistakes too terribly many times.  Some never learn.


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## TeresaT (Nov 5, 2015)

Wow!  Selling soap three days after it's out of the mold because it's hard enough?  And here I am planning on building a business selling soap that has cured for a minimum of six months . I must really be stupid, because I could make a fortune in the time it will take to cure one bar.  SMH


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## BWsoaps (Mar 12, 2016)

As far as the coco woman... She's an idiot just ignore her and let her fail.

But I think marketing your soap as natural is fine, there's big company's here in London who market as natural. I do it with my soap and at first it hurt to do it, but now I know customers lap it up and it works so it's fine. 

If you make soaps to sell them then it's something you should try 


BWsoaps said:


> As far as the coco woman... She's an idiot just ignore her and let her fail.
> 
> But I think marketing your soap as natural is fine, there's big company's here in London who market as natural. I do it with my soap and at first it hurt to do it, but now I know customers lap it up and it works so it's fine.
> 
> If you make soaps to sell them then it's something you should try




P.s what's the Facebook group name or link? 

I wonna join


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## Relle (Mar 13, 2016)

It's a pity you are still making claims on your FB page.
quote - 

Regular use of our soap cures psoriasis, eczema and other skin conditions like dry skin, itchy skin, and even bug bites. 

I wouldn't touch your soap with a ten foot pole.
As far as the coco woman... She's an idiot just ignore her and let her fail.  It says it all really.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 13, 2016)

BWsoaps said:


> .......But I think marketing your soap as natural is fine, there's big company's here in London who market as natural. I do it with my soap and at first it hurt to do it, but now I know customers lap it up and it works so it's fine.
> 
> If you make soaps to sell them then it's something you should try ......




Posting on a public forum that you are happy to mislead customers because they "lap it up"? Interesting strategy. 

As for claims, while here in Europe we do indeed make cosmetics by default (all soap in the eu is a cosmetic, for those who didn't know) we still have to avoid certain claims that take us in to drug categories. Which is why things like cosmetic eye creams will only "reduce the appearance" of fine lines and wrinkles, not actually reduce them.


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## BWsoaps (Mar 13, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Posting on a public forum that you are happy to mislead customers because they "lap it up"? Interesting strategy.




I think you misunderstood me, my soap Is100% natural, I'm not miss leading anyone, it was just hard at first because it was a different marketing strategy from what I was used to, but a soap being 100% natural is the biggest weapon a soap maker has in the marketing battle, other wise it's just soap and you'll be going up against the big boys like LUSH


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## Steve85569 (Mar 13, 2016)

Interesting thread. Just forces me to say *something*.

I have been making soap for less than a year. I really like making soap. I like being creative and producing a *handmade* product.
(my background)
I was a project manager on multi million dollar projects for many years.
( back to MY rant)

I am not ready to sell soap - although I have lots made in reserve - and may never do so. As I look at the possible risks ( risk analysis defense) and the number of people that can make false claims against me or my business these days I just have too many unanswered doubts.
With people that sell after 3 days "because it's hard enough" and people that do not correctly label their products there are problems created that ripple through the entire handmade, natural and home produced or grown industry. All of this can only eventually bring about a huge amount of regulation that will make it impossible for any of us to enjoy making hand made crafts and sharing them .
I strongly feel that THIS is the main reason that we all need to be very careful about what we say about our products and how or when we sell. It is a very well known fact that soap may be used at any time - i may just peel your hide off if'n it aint done being soap yet. 
Sooner or later one of these "I sell my soaps after a couple of days" is going to seriously hurt someone and the repercussions are going to effect more than just the perpetrator.


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## BWsoaps (Mar 13, 2016)

Ste are you from the UK? 

Because we already have enough regulations over here lol


If you don't follow them you get a fine or worse. 

So like I said just leave them to it.


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## LisaAnne (Mar 13, 2016)

My decision to not sell is more  personal. I've been making lye based soap for over a year now. Early on people browbeat me into selling, thank God it was on a very small level and short lived. I'm embarrassed about that early soap, it was lousy. . My soaps are much better now and I see them getting better. My personal goal is to be an artisan, not a soap company. I'd much rather have people asking for some of my soap because they love it (yes I have a few) than me trying to convince them to buy it. I have great respect for quality soap companies but I also at times can tell when someone just wants to turn a buck. They diminish the craft and make it harder for all as stated above.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 13, 2016)

BWsoaps said:


> I think you misunderstood me, my soap Is100% natural, I'm not miss leading anyone,



The marketing angle seems to have prevented you from giving this the slightest thought.

Natural = "existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind"

Did you grow your soap? Did you find it in the forest, dig it out of the ground, fish it out of the sea? Did it fall out of the sky? Get hurled out of a volcano?

Synthetic or man-made products are those that are produced by chemical reactions and other processes in factories. I kind of suspect that is how you're coming up with soap in your little factory. That's how the rest of us do it.

Gasoline, there's an example of a mostly natural product. Refined but not synthesized.


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## LisaAnne (Mar 13, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> The marketing angle seems to have prevented you from giving this the slightest thought.
> 
> Natural = "existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind"
> 
> ...



Just curious, not debating  
So in your opinion no soap is natural?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 13, 2016)

LisaAnne said:


> Just curious, not debating
> 
> So in your opinion no soap is natural?




I'm not tomahawk (my new nickname for ToMH), but if you cook an animal over a fire pit and then some rain seeps in the ashes making a potash which then mixes with the fat to make a soap - then yes, THAT soap might be considered natural. Although, as the cooking etc was performed by someone, it is arguable still not natural. 

Now, if someone is selling soap made when lightning hits a tree, which catches fire and falls on a wild pig.............


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## amd (Mar 13, 2016)

LisaAnne said:


> My decision to not sell is more  personal. I've been making lye based soap for over a year now. Early on people browbeat me into selling, thank God it was on a very small level and short lived. I'm embarrassed about that early soap, it was lousy. . My soaps are much better now and I see them getting better. My personal goal is to be an artisan, not a soap company. I'd much rather have people asking for some of my soap because they love it (yes I have a few) than me trying to convince them to buy it. I have great respect for quality soap companies but I also at times can tell when someone just wants to turn a buck. They diminish the craft and make it harder for all as stated above.



And then there are well respected soap experts who promote businesses by inexperienced soapers. 
www.soapqueen.com/business/interview-with-lauren-of-single-barrel-soaps
She made soap for Christmas (she says "last" which I take to mean 2014) and started her company the beginning of 2015.


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## LisaAnne (Mar 13, 2016)

amd said:


> And then there are well respected soap experts who promote businesses by inexperienced soapers.
> www.soapqueen.com/business/interview-with-lauren-of-single-barrel-soaps
> She made soap for Christmas (she says "last" which I take to mean 2014) and started her company the beginning of 2015.



Well that was a love fest. I see more soap companies going  under and people selling their supplies these days.


The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm not tomahawk (my new nickname for ToMH), but if you cook an animal over a fire pit and then some rain seeps in the ashes making a potash which then mixes with the fat to make a soap - then yes, THAT soap might be considered natural. Although, as the cooking etc was performed by someone, it is arguable still not natural.
> 
> Now, if someone is selling soap made when lightning hits a tree, which catches fire and falls on a wild pig.............


May I just call you Tommy. 

Cute son by the way.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 13, 2016)

I am of the belief that what we make is not natural. I don't tout any claims as I'm not into misleading my customers.  I make and sell soap that is made with stuff you can pronounce and that is better than anything you can buy in the store.  I use both EO and FO. I use spiced and herbs to color and I use Micas. My customers like pretty great smelling soap and other products. Therefor I take great pleasure that they want them and I love making them.


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## cmzaha (Mar 13, 2016)

BWsoaps said:


> Relle Don't get jealous ��
> 
> I think you misunderstood me, my soap Is100% natural, I'm not miss leading anyone, it was just hard at first because it was a different marketing strategy from what I was used to, but a soap being 100% natural is the biggest weapon a soap maker has in the marketing battle, other wise it's just soap and you'll be going up against the big boys like LUSH


Sorry soap is not 100% natural. Sodium Hydroxide is Manufactured and is not Natural. I tell my customers that ask it is all natural that it is as natural as I can get it. I refuse to mis-lead customers and use it as a selling strategy. And as Shari mentioned, colorants, EO and FO's all play a part.


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## BWsoaps (Mar 13, 2016)

You're all a bit deluded when it comes to expressing NATURAL. 

None of what I use is synthetic.

I legally have the power to call it natural. 

It is legally natural. 

Chill



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm not tomahawk (my new nickname for ToMH), but if you cook an animal over a fire pit and then some rain seeps in the ashes making a potash which then mixes with the fat to make a soap - then yes, THAT soap might be considered natural. Although, as the cooking etc was performed by someone, it is arguable still not natural.
> 
> Now, if someone is selling soap made when lightning hits a tree, which catches fire and falls on a wild pig.............




Mate what you are describing is a natural formation. 

If you used this rule in life then NOTHING would be natural. 

Stand back and look what your saying.

That's like saying if you shoot a pig and cook it and eat it, it's not natural because the bullet is man made.

I feel like a child having this convo with grown adults. 

It's natural full stop 

Leave it, go home


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## IrishLass (Mar 13, 2016)

BWsoaps said:


> You're all a bit deluded when it comes to expressing NATURAL.
> 
> None of what I use is synthetic.
> 
> ...


 

Can you elaborate as to what you define as being synthetic/non-synthetic,  and/or explain how none of what you use is synthetic?

"Legally" natural is one thing, but "realistically" natural is another. 


IrishLass


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## penelopejane (Mar 13, 2016)

IL the British (and I guess others) get away with saying soap is natural because they list end product ingredients. There is no lye (definitely a chemical) in their soap because it has saponified and is no longer present in the soap.

Some people think this is because the company didn't use lye so if the public just look at labels to compare they will go for the "natural" one.


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## TeresaT (Mar 13, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm not tomahawk (my new nickname for ToMH), but if you cook an animal over a fire pit and then some rain seeps in the ashes making a potash which then mixes with the fat to make a soap - then yes, THAT soap might be considered natural. Although, as the cooking etc was performed by someone, it is arguable still not natural.
> 
> Now, if someone is selling soap made when lightning hits a tree, which catches fire and falls on a wild pig.............



The only 100% natural soap I know about is THIS (but I ain't washing with it!):

ETA: That Sir Thomas Browne sure had a way with words!!

Holy crud!  The next time I visit family & friends, I gotta visit the Soap Lady, too!  As a native Philadelphian, WHY DIDN'T I KNOW THAT?


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## SplendorSoaps (Mar 13, 2016)

Hot topic today!



cmzaha said:


> I tell my customers that ask it is all natural that it is as natural as I can get it.



Exactly this. I do some soaps with FOs, and some with EOs. For customers who are looking for a _more natural_ alternative to commercial soaps, I sometimes jokingly tell them that the only way this bar could be more natural is if I harvested the lye out of ashes myself! LOL

While I agree with those on this thread who have pointed out that soap is not, by definition, "all natural," I think that the semantics are sometimes lost on the consumers who are just looking for a soap that's closer to the ingredients in their natural state than say, a bottle of body wash. Yes, sodium hydroxide is a chemical. But when I explain to my customers that my soap is made by adding fats to lye and then adding either a synthetic FO or a plant-derived EO for scent, many view the process as more wholesome and pure than the mass manufactured products that use SLS and SLES.

I'm not advocating misleading the customer or being irresponsible with the term "natural," but I guess I'm comfortable with the idea of expressing that my product ingredients are generally closer to a natural state than those that use junk like SLES and other detergents. Usually when I educate the customer on the difference (and point out what's "natural" and what's not in my soaps), they seem genuinely appreciative of the information.


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## paillo (Mar 13, 2016)

SpendorSoap, THIS. I try not to get lost in the semantics of what's exactly natural or not, don't want to get into that kind of argument at, say, a market. I explain to people that it's a more natural product than most commercial products, and what happens to lye during saponification, and that FOs and micas (I don't make many FO soaps but love micas) are not natural. I sell to a local natural grocery where the beauty section is filled with soaps, many of which contain ingredients similar to mine. The staff is familiar with what goes into soap (I've helped explain it), and I appreciate that they, too, can educate customers. Mine are made with more than the usual variety of nice oils (and now lard and tallow, so those don't go to that particular store), nice additives, thought, creativity and attention to beauty. 

I DON'T call mine 'natural' and as a result am happy and feel honest. In my mostly-health-conscious and educated markets people do carefully read labels and are not afraid to ask questions.  I have nothing to hide. 

About to take a months-long hiatus from making and selling soap for a cross-country move which will put me in an even more elite, sophisticated, educated and health- and environment-conscious market. Can't wait, so looking forward to that!

At the end of the day, the most important thing for me is feeling no guilt in my marketing.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 13, 2016)

LisaAnne said:


> Just curious, not debating
> So in your opinion no soap is natural?



I'm eagerly waiting for a wild pig to be hit by a flaming tree.


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## LisaAnne (Mar 13, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I'm eagerly waiting for a wild pig to be hit by a flaming tree.



I like all the soaps, mica, fragrance, clays, milks. Wish I were better at blending essential oils. When I did sell, I sold as soap. No ingredients listed. Where I sold people were more drawn to my more colorful artsy overly smelly  melt and pour. My earthy HP didn't impress by looks. 

Not sure what the flying pig and flaming tree thing means, but I'm slow


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## Steve85569 (Mar 13, 2016)

BW seems to be taking this entire thread way too seriously.

:idea:Wild Pigs and Lightning would make a good name for a rock 'n roll band.:-D


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## TeresaT (Mar 13, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I'm eagerly waiting for a wild pig to be hit by a flaming tree.



Did I hear you say barbecue?  I'm in!!


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## Relle (Mar 14, 2016)

Quote - Regular use of our soap cures psoriasis, eczema and other skin conditions like dry skin, itchy skin, and even bug bites.

I must tell all the dermatologists of the world that you have a cure for these conditions, they might be a little scared as you'll put them out of business.

Definition of an idiot - never argue with an idiot as they'll drag you down to their level and win through sheer experience. ( now, I wonder who that would be).


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