# What's the benefit of tea in your soap?



## btz (Mar 8, 2014)

Does anyone know what's the benefit for using tea as your liquid in CP soap? They changes the soap's color, but is it only for that? Is there an extra benefit like maybe extra cleanliness, moisturizing effect, etc? 

I know that green tea contains a lot polyphenol, and all the good stuff in green tea are absorbed more effectively via skin (like soaking in them) then ingestion. Will all these still be available in soap form?

Tea also contain a lot of anti-oxidant, therefore, can it also extend the 'life' of the soap? Or on the contrary 'promote' DOS?

What about different type of black tea, or herbal tea like peppermint and camomile. They also have different benefits if use on skin. 

Sorry for all the question, but I am curious about it. I want to use tea on soap, but because I drink variety of tea, I got confused on which one is the best to use.


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## Silverwolf (Mar 8, 2014)

I would love to know the answer to this as well. If push came to shove I would use a different tea and make multiple batches and 1 control batch without tea that way you can see how it effects it yourself.


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## btz (Mar 8, 2014)

LOL, I asked so that I don't have to do this :razz:. I wanted too, but I just don't have the patient to do it.


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## Ruthie (Mar 8, 2014)

Of course, it all comes down to what survives saponification.  Unless, of course, you rebatch....


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## Susie (Mar 8, 2014)

I can only speak to my own experience with tea in soap.  Hibiscus based teas do NOT retain that glorious color.  I don't know about any other benefits.


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## new12soap (Mar 8, 2014)

To be honest, in my opinion the biggest benefit is label appeal. I have no idea how much if any of the good stuff survives saponification, I have no science to back this up, but let's just take a look:

A 2lb recipe using full water calls for approximately 12 ounces of liquid, so let's say you used a tea concentrated to about 2 cups worth. So the benefits in that 2 cups of tea go into your soap, and then gets cut into 10 bars (my mold that holds exactly 2lbs of oils and full water makes ten 1 inch bars). So we have divided 2 cups of tea into 10 bars. Now let's say that bar of soap lasts for a month (again, mine usually last longer, some last less), so 30 uses. So 2 divided by 10 divided by 30 = 0.006 cups per wash. And the soap stays on your skin for what? maybe 2 minutes? before being rinsed off and going down the drain. That works out to about 1.5 grams of tea spread over you whole body.

I'm sorry, but even if something fabulous survived saponification and was somehow able to thrive in the alkaline environment that is soap, I just don't see how in those concentrations you would get much benefit at all. But as I said, that is purely opinion, and I could easily be wrong!

Now, having said all that, I have used tea in my soaps and I quite like it


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## coffeetime (Mar 8, 2014)

Red rooibos makes a nice orange red colour that survives.


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## ilovesoap2 (Mar 8, 2014)

new12soap said:


> To be honest, in my opinion the biggest benefit is label appeal. I have no idea how much if any of the good stuff survives saponification, I have no science to back this up, but let's just take a look:
> 
> A 2lb recipe using full water calls for approximately 12 ounces of liquid, so let's say you used a tea concentrated to about 2 cups worth. So the benefits in that 2 cups of tea go into your soap, and then gets cut into 10 bars (my mold that holds exactly 2lbs of oils and full water makes ten 1 inch bars). So we have divided 2 cups of tea into 10 bars. Now let's say that bar of soap lasts for a month (again, mine usually last longer, some last less), so 30 uses. So 2 divided by 10 divided by 30 = 0.006 cups per wash. And the soap stays on your skin for what? maybe 2 minutes? before being rinsed off and going down the drain. That works out to about 1.5 grams of tea spread over you whole body.
> 
> ...



I'm beginning to feel the same for ery single additive! wink wink


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## btz (Mar 9, 2014)

new12soap said:


> To be honest, in my opinion the biggest benefit is label appeal. I have no idea how much if any of the good stuff survives saponification, I have no science to back this up, but let's just take a look:
> 
> A 2lb recipe using full water calls for approximately 12 ounces of liquid, so let's say you used a tea concentrated to about 2 cups worth. So the benefits in that 2 cups of tea go into your soap, and then gets cut into 10 bars (my mold that holds exactly 2lbs of oils and full water makes ten 1 inch bars). So we have divided 2 cups of tea into 10 bars. Now let's say that bar of soap lasts for a month (again, mine usually last longer, some last less), so 30 uses. So 2 divided by 10 divided by 30 = 0.006 cups per wash. And the soap stays on your skin for what? maybe 2 minutes? before being rinsed off and going down the drain. That works out to about 1.5 grams of tea spread over you whole body.
> 
> ...



I love the math, seriously :razz:. 

A little of the good stuff over a period of time actually appeals to me in some level. Slow 'infusion' all the way. Hopefully some of them survive in the soap. 

Do you guys have any favorite tea to put into a soap? 

I mix some peppermint leaves on a small batch of my soap 2 weeks ago, it's still curing at the moment, but I love how it still have the faint smell of peppermint now. Hopefully it will last another month of curing.


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## Happysoap (Mar 9, 2014)

From what I can figure, the benefit is almost nothing. The tea is a weak infusion of the herb but about half of the infused matter ends up saponified. The same thing that happens to essential oils in cp happens with infused matter. That said, I use very strong tea in my unscented tea soaps. Very little survives but what does survive gives the unscented soap a slight hit of a scent and its great label appeal. I can not say that i have noticed any significant difference in how my skin reacts to tea soaps. My customers see the difference but I am not sure if it is really making a difference or if it is the placebo effect. In my opinion, the oils in the soap are what make the difference in the feel of the soap. Everything else is just for show. That is my two cents worth on this subject


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## Happysoap (Mar 9, 2014)

Fav tea in soap-rosemary, chamomile and callendula


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## Ruthie (Mar 9, 2014)

coffeetime said:


> Red rooibos makes a nice orange red colour that survives.



So, I must ask, what is your secret?  Mine turned a mundane brown.


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## coffeetime (Mar 9, 2014)

Ruthie said:


> So, I must ask, what is your secret?  Mine turned a mundane brown.




I use it (very concentrated - 3 tea bags to 100ml water) as my lye water and add a little pink clay.


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## seven (Mar 9, 2014)

i have no idea about the benefits. like previously said here, we dont know how much will survive saponification. for me, it's more label appeal.


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## Silverwolf (Mar 9, 2014)

So I started to do a little research on polyphenols and I think that they could cause a effect since it seems to have a low therapeutic threshold in the mg level. The real question is can it survive saponification, sadly  I'm not a chemist so I can't answer it. Tannins in tea seem to sometimes stand up to the saponification as is evident with tea colored soap so it's possible polyphenols may survive as well. We would need a good chemist in here to answer this question properly.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 11, 2014)

We need something like the Bat Signal but with a D and an A on it...........................


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## soapballs (Mar 11, 2014)

I thought green tea added into soap was to aid in a detox effect as it would as well if drank.  Not sure but that is what I have read from soap listings that I have read from other soapers selling soaps with green tea in it.  I have no clue if they are all mislead or if it really does somehow detox from the outside too somehow.  Just adding to the post what I have read...who knows really.  I would assume caffeinated teas would help to tighten the skin if used as a facial bar though. I likewise read claims coffee bar do this.  I do not use them so I have no clue.  Would be a fun experiment to see if the caffeine did help.  I years ago bought some roll on brand name product that claimed it would instantly get rid of puffy under eye bags since it had caffeine in it...I did not see it do anything but waste a lot of my money lol...although I never got much slept then either working 3rds and two little ones on a normal sleep wake cycle lol. So I'll give it that much


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## green soap (Mar 11, 2014)

Only triglycerides saponify, so the only things that will not survive saponification are ....triglyceride molecules!  each one to be converted into three molecules of soap.  Or so we hope.

Essential oils are oils, also called lipids, but not triglycerides.  Hence, they will not become soap, or will not saponify.  Notice that soapcalc or other soap calculators do not have you add the EO weight as a bulk oil weight.

Some things (molecules) that do not saponify can still be affected by the NaOH.  Molecules that are fragile to a high pH environment can break down into smaller molecules, or be transformed to different molecules.  

Likewise, the high temperatures that can result from either mixing lye and water, or from gelling soap, can affect other components in the soap.  Notice that silk will only dissolve in hot lye/water, not in cooled lye/water. 

Essential oils can have extremely low flash points (105F for rosemary!), so above the flash point temperature they can become volatile, this means they evaporate away from your soap.  Low FP EOs are notorious for not 'sticking' in CP soap.  Reduce the temperature and they 'stick' better.  

While scent retention can be observed (still hard to quantify), telling if the desired components in tea are still present after the soap is made becomes difficult.  This would require more advanced chemical analysis that can be done in a standard kitchen.  We cannot just smell it and tell, ah all the caffeine is still there!  and the polyphenols from my tea are also there!  In a very non-scientific manner I 'feel' that the caffeine (or whatever it gets transformed to) helps with the deodorizing effect of my coffee kitchen soaps.  I also had strong spearmint tea retain a bit of a scent in a soap...did something else from the spearmint tea stay unaffected?  

Other than chemical analysis of our soaps, research is the way to go.  Take the different (desired?) components of the teas we use (I consider coffee a 'tea' for the purpose of this discussion) the caffeine, the polyphenols, so on and so on, and search for any lab research exposing them to either high pH, high T or both.


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## btz (Mar 11, 2014)

They should have sell self-test-kit for these kind of thing and have it available commercially. We would go crazy with it. 

I forgot the name of the chemical, but they have one that can test anti-oxidant on tea, it turn dark blue, the darker the blue the more anti-oxidant it has. So theoretically, with this, I can melt a small amount of tea soap in water and have it tested for anti-oxidant too. Not sure about the price though.


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## new12soap (Mar 11, 2014)

Flashpoint and volatility are two different things. Flashpoint is the temperature at which the vapors can ignite when exposed to open flame. Essential oils do not begin to evaporate away unless and until you reach their boiling point which is much higher.

http://roberttisserand.com/2011/06/essential-oils-in-soap-interview-with-kevin-dunn/

Some interesting comments about the benefits that may remain, too.


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## Silverwolf (Mar 12, 2014)

Well polyphenols are similar to tannins which can impart color to soaps like picture a few posts up so obviously tannins can survive the highly basic environment.  One thing I did find out is that polyphenols can bind  proteins and become unavailable unless exposed to a acid. So it may be a bad idea to use green tea with milk when soaping.


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## green soap (Mar 12, 2014)

new12soap said:


> Flashpoint and volatility are two different things. Flashpoint is the temperature at which the vapors can ignite when exposed to open flame. Essential oils do not begin to evaporate away unless and until you reach their boiling point which is much higher.
> 
> http://roberttisserand.com/2011/06/essential-oils-in-soap-interview-with-kevin-dunn/
> 
> Some interesting comments about the benefits that may remain, too.



You are correct that the boiling point is much higher, but the flashpoint is the temperature at which the vapor pressure from essential oils (or anything else) begins to be significant (and is enough to cause ignition).  There is increased evaporation at increasing temperatures, you do not need to reach the boiling point to start evaporating your EOs, this can be seen in vapor pressure charts.  I was using the flashpoints as a quick guide and comparison of the temperature 'robustness' of the different EOs (one with a FP of 200F is not as much of a concern as one with FP of 105C as an example).  An yes, it is much lower than the boiling point, but you can loose a substantial amount even below the boiling point.  The longer the soap stays hot, and the hotter it gets, the more scent you loose from EOs with low flashpoints (and relatively low boiling points).  Exposing rosemary EO (as an example) to 105F is not going to evaporate it all away, however, a gel stage of lets say a couple of hours of 160C will cause some of the EO to vaporize, even though its boiling point is much higher at 349F.  

Thank you for the link on EO in soaps, it is very interesting.


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## soapballs (Mar 12, 2014)

That was some great information Greensoap Thank you! :-o


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## DeeAnna (Mar 13, 2014)

With respect, I want to chime in about the flash point and boiling point of a substance and how they relate to volatility -- the ability to evaporate.

The flash point is the lowest temperature at which vapors will ignite when mixed in air and exposed to a spark. The vapors may or may not continue to burn if the ignition source is removed. 

Some substances do not have a flash point -- they either do not have burnable vapors, or chemically degrade before they reach a flash point, or do not produce any vapor under normal conditions. Things like gasoline, liqueurs, EOs, and FOs do have a flash point. For safety's sake it's wise to keep spark or flame away from these substances if you are working with them near their flash point.

The boiling point is where a liquid stops increasing in temperature in response to added heat energy -- all added energy goes into the boiling process only. Bubbles of vaporized material form within the liquid and rise to the surface at the boiling point. The flash point of a substance may be above the boiling point ... or it may be below. It depends on the flammability of the vapors.

Both properties are obviously related to volatility, but what I'm reading in this thread is that a substance is not volatile -- it will not evaporate -- before the flash or boiling point is reached, and that's just not true.

Long before a substance reaches its flash point or boiling point, a substance is still volatile, meaning it will evaporate. It is just volatilizing without actually boiling or burning. If substances were not volatile before their flash or boiling points, you couldn't smell bread baking, you couldn't watch vapor rise from a hot cup of coffee, and you would not be able to smell the fragrance in soap. Sheets wouldn't dry when hung on a clothesline, clouds in the sky would not exist, bread would never go stale, and your soap would never lose its scent. All of these things relate to the volatility of a substance even though the temperature is well below its boiling and flash points.

Bottom line ... respect the flash point of your EOs and FOs for safety's sake. Add fragrance to your B&B products when they are as cool as possible. Understand that volatility of a fragrance is related to temperature, time, and concentration, as well as the inherent vapor pressure of the chemicals in the fragrance.

Some compounds in an FO or EO have a higher vapor pressure than others and will not last as long. These highly volatile chemicals are the "top notes" in a fragrance. Citrus and many floral scents fall in this category. Some compounds last much longer in a fragrance. These chemicals are less volatile -- they have a lower vapor pressure -- and make up the long lasting "bottom notes". Patchouli, benzoin, frankincense come to mind.


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## Sophie Thwaites (Jul 18, 2020)

Thank you so much for this, really helpful. I am making solid syndet shampoo and conditioner bars, and was seeing the results of volatility as you describe above but couldn't articulate it or understand it. I was falling into the trap of equating flash point with a notional evaporation/volatility point. For example, citrus EO would stick (albeit weakly), despite being added at a temperature far in excess of flash point. Then conversely a fragrance oil with a very high flash point was being totally evaporated despite being added at way below its flash point. 

Having read your comments and done some further research on scent anchoring I will now 
1) let the mixture cool a bit before adding the fragrances 
2) add a base note of ginger EO to the citrus EO to help anchor it, and 
3) add kaolin clay to also help anchor both my EOs and FOs. 
I've read these things help for CP soap, so hopefully this translates to solid shampoo, where i'm trying to add fragrances at temperatures over 60 degrees C. (I tried letting the mixture cool down to around 45 degrees before adding fragrance a couple of times, but the bars just came out as mush after refrigeration, so that was a no go!)


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## shunt2011 (Jul 18, 2020)

Sophie Thwaites said:


> Thank you so much for this, really helpful. I am making solid syndet shampoo and conditioner bars, and was seeing the results of volatility as you describe above but couldn't articulate it or understand it. I was falling into the trap of equating flash point with a notional evaporation/volatility point. For example, citrus EO would stick (albeit weakly), despite being added at a temperature far in excess of flash point. Then conversely a fragrance oil with a very high flash point was being totally evaporated despite being added at way below its flash point.
> 
> Having read your comments and done some further research on scent anchoring I will now
> 1) let the mixture cool a bit before adding the fragrances
> ...


This post is from 2014.  The poster hasn't been here in a long time.


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