# Using Silk Tussah in soap



## noirsavon (Mar 18, 2014)

Hey everyone!

I've purchased silk tussah (Saffire Blue) for my cold process soaps after reading it was helping to create a silky latter but I'm a little confused about its use... It has to be dissolved to the lye water, but it dosent seem to dissolve really well. I'm always left with a little ball of silk strings happily floating in my lye water :eh:.

Is it normal? Am I suppose to wait a longer, or to put it at the same time as the lye, or to just leave it there when I mix with the oils? I'm making little batches of soap (1 pound), how much I'm a suppose to put in it? And is the effect really that incredible? I've only used it two times and those are still curing so...

Can't wait to here about your experiences with it! :smile:


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## Dennis (Mar 18, 2014)

My latest batch of tussah silk has done the same.  I suspected a weakened lye due to long term storage but that does not seem to be the case.  I have removed the little slimy remains and have left them.  Hasn't bothered anything but then I'm not selling soap either. 
As to how much to use, that is usually a pencil eraser size ball or more for a larger batch.  It's kind of a ballpark thing so if you're the absolute scientific minded exacting type that measurement could probably drive you nuts.  But it works. I've used more and less. 
Does it make a difference?  To me, ehh.  Someone with more sensitive skin will chime in I'm sure.


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## Obsidian (Mar 18, 2014)

You add the silk to the water before adding the lye, dissolve best you can then strain the lye so there aren't any silk bits floating around. You only need a thumbnail sized piece for a 1lb batch.

I can feel a difference with the silk, not much but its there.


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## Candybee (Mar 18, 2014)

I use a small "pinch" of silk for my CP soap. For a 5lb batch I typically use a pinch the size of a very, very small cottonball. I cut up the silk into small pieces over my empty lye water bowl. Cutting up the silk will help a lot with helping it to dissolve when you add the lye. After I cut up the silk I then add my water and stir the silk and water to saturate the silk. Water alone won't dissolve it. Next I add my lye and mix the lye until it has completely dissolved. I periodically check the lye water and stir to see how the silk is dissolving. When my lye water has reached 100 degrees or lower the silk is usually completely dissolved by then. It takes about 20-30 minutes.

If you still have bits of silk you can strain it through a stainless steel mesh strainer as you pour it into your soap batter. I have never had any problems with my Tussah silk doing it this way. I like the way it makes my soap feel when I use it.

While I am waiting on my lye water to cool I start putting together my soap oils and melting my hard oils. By the time I have finished my lye water and silk is usually ready.

PS: I also gently pull my silk ball out and spread it thin before cutting it. Think of rolling out pizza dough. Make the silk ball thin and then cut it up.


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## seven (Mar 18, 2014)

i add mine to the hot lye water. it dissolves in no time. sometimes there are floating bits, no biggie, just strain. separate the fiber to thin pieces to help it dissolve faster.


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## Lindy (Mar 18, 2014)

I too use silk in my soaps and I love the feel of the soap with it in.  I do notice a difference.  Like others have said you cut it up into smaller pieces and I do the same as CandyBee with stretching the fibres out before cutting.  Something else I do is come back to the lye water a couple of times and stir it until the fibres are dissolved.  You can use any animal fleece in your lye and it's fun experimenting.  So far I've used sheep wool and poodle hair.


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## noirsavon (Mar 18, 2014)

*Thank you!!*

Wow! Can't believe that 1h after posting my question there's already so many replies! You are some efficient soapmakers, I guess I'll have no choice but to spend all my days in here!

Thanks a lot, I'll try separating the fiber, dissolving it before I put the lye and then takeing the fibers out of the water if there are still some in it. Can't wait to try to see if it make a difference! 

I try to keep my products vegan as much as possible (which isnt all that hard with cold process soap) but I really wanted to try the silk. As any of you heard about any kind of «non-cruelty» silk... if there is any kind of cruelty involve in the making of the silk!


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## shunt2011 (Mar 18, 2014)

I let the silk fibers soak in the water for a bit and then just add my lye.  The heat pretty much dissolves all of it with a couple stirs here and there.  I love silk in my soaps.  Use it in all of them.


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## grayceworks (Mar 18, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I... You can use any animal fleece in your lye and it's fun experimenting.  So far I've used sheep wool and poodle hair.



*ponders the bits of cat fluff on the back of the sofa*


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## Obsidian (Mar 18, 2014)

noirsavon said:


> I try to keep my products vegan as much as possible (which isnt all that hard with cold process soap) but I really wanted to try the silk. As any of you heard about any kind of «non-cruelty» silk... if there is any kind of cruelty involve in the making of the silk!



Normally the silk cocoons are boiled while the caterpillar is still inside alive. I'm assuming cruelty free silk is gathered from cocoons that have hatched on their own.


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## kaliquen (Mar 18, 2014)

There are silk pods that are wild harvested...they wait until the worm emerges (normally the worm is killed inside the cocoon to keep the fibers intact.  Just do a search for it, I'm sure you'll be able to find some.  It's easy to unravel the silk fibers from the pods...it'd probably be cheaper the get the pods instead of the processed silk.


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 18, 2014)

my favorite silk site for information, I've been buying silk mawatas to knit with .. now I'll have to put some in my soap!

http://www.wormspit.com/peacesilk.htm


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## Lindy (Mar 18, 2014)

Something else to keep in mind is that in many of the cultures that produce the silk, the worm is considered a delicacy and is eaten. There is something called peace silk but I have yet to find a reliable supplier for it.

 ETA - 
 Hah!  Ms Molly covered that in her link.... great link by the way.


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## Tienne (Mar 18, 2014)

Tussah (or Tasar) silk is a wild silk and completely cruelty free. It's made by a species called _Antheraea paphia and _the moths live in forests and feed on trees and the silk is harvested after the moths have emerged and flown away to live out their moth lives.

So-called peace silk, although the moths _are_ allowed to hatch before the silk is harvested, is not cruelty free in my opinion. That silk is often made by a species called _bombyx mori_ which is not a species found in nature and cannot survive without human help, but has been "domesticated" and bred for centuries merely to produce silk. In that time, they have become so utterly inbred, that the hatched moths are unable to see, to fly or even to eat. All they can do is breed and after that, they starve to death.


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## PinkCupcake (Mar 18, 2014)

Lindy said:


> You can use any animal fleece in your lye and it's fun experimenting. So far I've used sheep wool and poodle hair.



Wow! Poodle soap! The marketing potential is mind-boggling!


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 18, 2014)

Tienne said:


> Tussah (or Tasar) silk is a wild silk and completely cruelty free.



This is a potentially volatile topic so I'll tread lightly and if the moderators want I'll remove this post.  Sorry Tienne but I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here.  Cruelty free is a very, very tricky terminology and it's based on opinion and perspective.

The term "wild" is an artful presentation of the facts and it's comparable to the term "free range", similar to free range chickens.  They are not kept in cages like  their counterparts but they are still farmed.  In other words protected, fed, gatherer up and  butchered.  

It's far too costly and time consuming to gather wild silk cocoons and if the larvae has emerged the silk is damaged, meaning you're working harder for a less valuable product.

While some Tussar silk might actually be gathered from the wild, most of the worms are actually "free range" or farmed.  Branches with eggs are collected from trees in the wild (hence the term wild Tussar) and brought to the farming area where they are placed on trees wrapped with wire (predator prevention).  The Tussar worms might roam free in trees compared to domesticated silk worms kept in containers, but they are still farmed. 

Farming Tussar worms often means small children or the elderly are working from sun up to sun down to  guard from predators, or move them to fresh trees and the workers are  not paid, they're working for food.  Whether that is cruel or not depends on perception and opinion.  While they might look on this as  better than going hungry, in the Western world we call it slave labour.  

The farmed cocoons are still harvested with the larvae inside.  The silk is simply too valuable for them to let the larvae chew a hole in it and damage the thread.  Some cocoons are harvested after the larvae emerge but the majority are not.

If the cocoons are actually being harvested in the wild .. are the larvae emerged or still inside? Are children being used to harvest them?  Are other animals harmed during the harvest?  Are we upsetting the balance of nature by harvesting them?

It's all similar to palm oil.  While some palm oil is considered environmentally friendly because a forest was not chopped there are still many factors to consider.  Maybe it was farmed in an eco friendly manner but was it then refined using bleach or harsh chemicals that were then dumped into local water sources?  Was it farmed using child labour?  While it may have been farmed on a farm that has been established for a decade, was the family evicted so palm trees could be planted or are other families starving because they are not allowed to harvest wild palm?

Environmentally friendly or cruelty free are words we like to hear so we  have a tendency to accept the artful presentation of the facts but it's  not always the entire or true picture.


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## Tienne (Mar 18, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> This is a potentially volatile topic so I'll tread lightly and if the moderators want I'll remove this post.  Sorry Tienne but I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here.  Cruelty free is a very, very tricky terminology and it's based on opinion and perspective.



Aww, MzMolly, there's no need to have the post removed. I'm not in the least bit offended or "stuck in my ways" and I am never too old to learn something new either, so I greatly appreciate your post. 

I only have very superficial knowledge of the silk industry. I also only have superficial knowledge of the palm oil industry, the cocoa bean industry and the mica industry. All those industries have some kind of "damned if you do and damned if you don't" about them. I remember reading how children are forced to work long hours mining micas so them and their families can make a few measly bucks just enough so they can eat or how the people who grow cocoa beans can't even afford to send their kids to school and also keep them home because they are needed to help on the plantations. When I started soaping, it never crossed my mind that there were so many things that I had to make decisions about. No matter which choice I made, I felt I was "hurting" something or someone. Do I want to help save the rainforests by not using palm? Yes! Do I want to take away the only job opportunity some poor familie has to feed their children, by growing palm? No! Yes, no, yes, no... hmm. The same goes for cocoa butter and silk and micas etc. We all want to do the best we can to make ethical and conscious choices about the things we buy and I truly believe people do the best they can with the information they have. When we know better, we do better. The mere fact that we are actually having discussions about and are concerned about the life and fate of a small insect or worry about how a poor family in a faraway land is coping is outstanding in itself and it warms my heart to know that people really do care and they really do try the best they can to make good decisions.  

Thanks again for your post. I did learn something new from it.


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## Benjamin (Mar 18, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I too use silk in my soaps and I love the feel of the soap with it in.  I do notice a difference.  Like others have said you cut it up into smaller pieces and I do the same as CandyBee with stretching the fibres out before cutting.  Something else I do is come back to the lye water a couple of times and stir it until the fibres are dissolved.  You can use any animal fleece in your lye and it's fun experimenting.  So far I've used sheep wool and poodle hair.




Hi Lindy,

I'm dying to know. . . How did the poodle hair soap turn out?

---Ben


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## AustinStraight (Mar 18, 2014)

Lindy said:


> So far I've used sheep wool and poodle hair.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think I just thought up a new use for all that hair in the drain...


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## Lindy (Mar 18, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> Hi Lindy,
> 
> I'm dying to know. . . How did the poodle hair soap turn out?
> 
> ---Ben



 Hi Ben :wave:

 It turned out quite nice.  I think the proteins in the wool/hair brings a wonderful feel to the soap whether it's silk, poodle or wool.  It does seem each is a little different but all of them are wonderful.


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## Benjamin (Mar 18, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Hi Ben :wave:
> 
> It turned out quite nice.  I think the proteins in the wool/hair brings a wonderful feel to the soap whether it's silk, poodle or wool.  It does seem each is a little different but all of them are wonderful.




Thanks Lindy! With four cats and a Portuguese Water Dog I definitely have to give this a try.  I also think my wife might try to have me committed when I tell her about this. This is going to be a hoot! 

Out of curiosity how much hair do you use per pound of oils? The beast is almost ready for her spring cut, so I'll have a whole dogs worth of hair!

I so can't wait 
---Ben


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## cmzaha (Mar 18, 2014)

I use silk cocoons and just put the entire cocoon in the hot lye. I would not say it is cheaper, but then I have not boiled and unraveled the silk to compare the amount to tussah. In many cultures the pupae is eaten after the coocon is boiled for harvesting the silk. At the point the cocoons are harvested for silk they is not a live moth inside it is still in the pupae stage. I have had many hatch when I was raising silk worms (silk larve) to feed my chameleons, oh how they loved those big fat juicy larve, and they do ruin the cocoon when they emerge, so for the silk industry they cannot allow them to emerge, which is why they are harvested as soon as the cocoon is complete. Silk worms have been raised for thousands of years in order to provide silk. I cannot imagine the devastation they would cause if they were allowed to be completely wild and not controlled by farming them. I know how much the those guys can eat, and you can practically watch them grow in front of you. They have voracious appetites


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## Lindy (Mar 19, 2014)

About the size of a small cotton ball.  From your first knuckle on your thumb to the tip for a 6 lb batch.


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 19, 2014)

Tienne said:


> Do I want to help save the rainforests by not using palm? Yes! Do I want to take away the only job opportunity some poor familie has to feed their children, by growing palm? No! Yes, no, yes, no... hmm.



I completely agree.  It's such a catch 22 and the opinions vary greatly depending on who you ask.

Based on our own existence we might think child labour is horrific .. they might think it's the only way for the kids or the family to survive.  Chaining a kid to a weaving loom is absolutely horrific without a doubt .. but a kid working on the family farm???

Based on a vegans perspective, harvesting silk while the pupae are inside might be considered cruel or wrong but if the pupae are kept as food for a family .. ?? or if the money earned from farming silk pays for a home, groceries, clothes or sends kids to school ??


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## Lindy (Mar 19, 2014)

It is all about perspective.  We can't judge what we don't understand or haven't experienced.


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## Tienne (Mar 19, 2014)

That's so true. I recall reading a thread online years ago somewhere where people were discussing odd foods people ate such as rats, insects and the eyes of animals they'd caught and such and a lot of the comments were "ewww!" and "yuck" and so on and then someone from Africa chimed in and said that being able to say eww to any food source truly was a First World problem and that people in some countries weren't so lucky and they didn't have the luxury of being able to say eww to any food source. They were lucky to have any food at all. That really put a perspective on things.


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 19, 2014)

Tienne said:


> then someone from Africa chimed in and said that being able to say eww to any food source truly was a First World problem and that people in some countries weren't so lucky and they didn't have the luxury of being able to say eww to any food source.



Sooo darn true and also sad.  I was watching a documentary where some children in India are born and raised on a garbage heap and the only food they ever get is gathered from that same heap.  It's so heart breaking and makes me stop and think before I clean out the fridge.

I suffered some personal hardship a few years back and spent several months living on nothing but boiled macaroni with a tiny bit of margarine on it.  Even now I think some people on this planet would consider that no hardship at all.

Just to have food in my home at all is a blessing.

Back to the whole silk thing .. I have silk Mawatas in my knitting stash.  I'm guessing I can use them in the same way being described here?  Take a small piece and dissolve it in my lye water?  I also have some that I coloured with food colouring and Kool-aid .. those ones had to be soaked in citric acid before the colour would hold. They've since been rinsed out fairly well and the only colour left is what's bonded to the silk's molecules?  Should be ok in soap right???


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## Lindy (Mar 19, 2014)

I don't know about the coloured pieces but the other should be fine.


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## Candybee (Mar 19, 2014)

I remember a post long ago on another forum about a soaper who used cut up pieces of an old silk garment in her soap. She would just cut off a piece and throw it in her lye water to dissolve. I imagine that it had some dye in it. 

About using dog hair and sheep wool.. now that got me to wondering if human hair could dissolve in lye. I suppose it does as it has been used for decades to clean out stopped sinks. Would the proteins from human hair add anything to the soap I wonder?


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## houseofwool (Mar 20, 2014)

And now I am curious because I shed like crazy...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 20, 2014)

The Admirable Lady is cutting my hair tonight, so I might well keep some back for playing with.  Imagine that for label appeal - "Contains real pieces of The Efficacious Gentleman!"


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## Lindy (Mar 20, 2014)

I can't see why not.


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 20, 2014)

my cat has a lot to contribute to this thread (and my house in general)

I might have to try some cat hair in my soap,  What's the benefit of the added protein?


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## Seawolfe (Mar 20, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> my cat has a lot to contribute to this thread (and my house in general)
> 
> I might have to try some cat hair in my soap,  What's the benefit of the added protein?



Great (or insane) minds think alike. I have a fluffy grey cat that would be happy to donate his undercoat on this vernal equinox. Truly cruelty free fur, from the delicate underbelly, the softest spot of spoiled kittehs, fed lovingly on treats and bites of a small terrier...


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## grayceworks (Mar 20, 2014)

I told my kitties the idea... ummm...


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## Dennis (Mar 20, 2014)

ManKatt has assumed the donation posture - he just doesn't know it.  :evil:


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## FlybyStardancer (Mar 20, 2014)

Fuzzy kitties! How can you guys resist?


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## Kleine Teufel (Mar 20, 2014)

Lindy, glad to hear of another weirdo! I was grooming out a friend's angora rabbit before breeding and it hit me... if I can make silk soap, why not angora? It worked well, and she gave me a bag of the shorter and knottier fiber that I had groomed out.


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 20, 2014)

Oh Dennis .. ManKatt has a lovely little mouse-tash!  Very dignified .. despite the Bert Reynolds pose!

Cyrus on the other hand .. could not be bothered rousing for the occasion.  Maybe tomorrow.


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## Benjamin (Mar 20, 2014)

I mentioned dog hair soap to a friend and he said the only problem might be when you soap up your belly your leg might start to shake.


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## Seawolfe (Mar 20, 2014)

Say what?


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## MzMolly65 (Mar 21, 2014)

Back to the silk issue .. for anyone wanting to make silk soap and stick to vegan ideals .. what about soy silk?  I have some from spinning projects but it's not near me at the moment so I can't test it.

Just throwing out an idea to the OP.  It might be worth a try.


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## Candybee (Mar 21, 2014)

Hmmm... then there's also corn silk....


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## Candybee (Mar 21, 2014)

BTW-- ManCat's pose is a hoot! I love when cat's lay flat on their backs.


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