# Stealing someone’s recipes



## David Christopher (Aug 14, 2019)

I totally understand that many diapers work on their recipes fo years ( or always months) however. I was wondering how much of an online recipe needs to be modified before it’s not “stealing” I’ve taken a basic Crisco recipe and have used goats milk instead of water. As well I have added items such as honey and/or ingredients like pumpkin.. does is adjusting the water content considered a modification
I also took the original recipe and ran it through Soapcal and that adjusted the amounts as well. 
What’s the proper way to respect other soapers 
Thanks Dave


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## shunt2011 (Aug 14, 2019)

If someone shares a recipe online they expect that others will use it and possible tweak it a bit.  I’ve shared my salt soap recipe numerous time and many have tried it and may use it still or adjust it to their liking. Personally, I shared it as I like it and wanted others to be able to make it themselves. So basically, I don’t think it’s an issue.


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## Obsidian (Aug 14, 2019)

I agree, if a recipe is posted online its meant to be used by others.
I share most of my recipes, if I had one I didn't want others to use, I wouldn't post it any where.


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## Misschief (Aug 14, 2019)

David Christopher said:


> I totally understand that many diapers work on their recipes fo years ( or always months) however. I was wondering how much of an online recipe needs to be modified before it’s not “stealing” I’ve taken a basic Crisco recipe and have used goats milk instead of water. As well I have added items such as honey and/or ingredients like pumpkin.. does is adjusting the water content considered a modification
> I also took the original recipe and ran it through Soapcal and that adjusted the amounts as well.
> What’s the proper way to respect other soapers
> Thanks Dave


Sorry, just had to chuckle at your post.... "many diapers"???


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 14, 2019)

David Christopher said:


> What’s the proper way to respect other soapers


Excellent question! I try to give credit where credit is due. For example, the arthritis cream I make is tweaked to my satisfaction, but, when sharing the recipe, I give credit to Linda Lorenzo who first shared her recipe with me in a class on another forum.


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## Dawni (Aug 14, 2019)

Misschief said:


> Sorry, just had to chuckle at your post.... "many diapers"???


Happens to me too when I try typing "soapers" on my phone. Crazy autocorrect hehehe

I think the question of stealing recipes is only an issue if someone were to start selling that same exact soap with no tweaks and not give at least some credit.. I think?


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## IrishLass (Aug 15, 2019)

I agree with Shunt and Obsidian. If I decide to share a personal recipe of my own,  I fully expect others to make it 'as is' without any modifications if they wish, or with modifications if they wish. I don't consider it as being stolen if I freely shared it. 

Zany brings up a good point, too. Whenever I have made another's publicly shared recipe and decide post my tweak of it, I like to give credit where credit is due by mentioning the originator of the recipe.


IrishLass


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## artemis (Aug 15, 2019)

There are only so many combinations of oils that you can come up with, though. If I make a soap that is 40% lard, 30% OO, 20% CO, and 10% AVO I am not the first person to come up with that. It's not even possible to credit the first person who did. I'm also not the first person to think of adding goat's milk (or carrot puree or oatmeal or lanolin or borax or whatever) to a soap. 

Now, trying to replicate someone's frangrance recipe, or method of swirling, that is different.


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## soapmaker (Aug 16, 2019)

artemis said:


> Now, trying to replicate someone's frangrance recipe, or method of swirling, that is different.



Method of swirling?? Don't we all learn from what's posted and try to mimic it?


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## shunt2011 (Aug 16, 2019)

@artemis Why would swirling or fragrance blending be different?   If there's a technique or fragrance blend that's been shared on the interwebs or youtube I think it's still fair game.  They wouldn't show how to do it if they didn't think someone was going to try it or utilize it.   The challenges here are generally based on a technique someone else has done and posted somewhere.   And others freely share blending ideas.


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## soapmaker (Aug 16, 2019)

I just told my best selling soap and lotion!


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## jcandleattic (Aug 16, 2019)

Honestly I don't think using a recipe, method of coloring/swirling, or using scent blends that are posted in the interwebs is stealing. 

I do however think it's "stealing" if you purposely get a soap you love from a fellow soaper (or soaper you don't know) and then try and reverse engineer the recipe or scent blend without their knowledge, or if they specifically call their recipe/scent blend "proprietary", and it is not explicitly listed anywhere on the web. 

JMO


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## amd (Aug 16, 2019)

Agree @jcandleattic - if it's free knowledge, then it has no "value" to "steal". If you gather it by devious means, well that's another story.

I admit to not being very original in some of my soap designs and techniques, but if I can credit back to someone I do. For example, last Halloween I made an eyeball soap that was inspired by another makers large eye ball soaps. Now I didn't ask her how she did anything, but I did use her idea to create smaller embeds. When I shared my results on Instagram I credited her original picture. Did I need to? probably not, but I did because I think it's important to credit someone when they inspire me.

Honestly, it's only stealing if done in secret with bad intentions. If you think that figuring out someone's secret recipe and then selling it much cheaper to take away their business, then that's stealing.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 16, 2019)

jcandleattic said:


> I do however think it's "stealing" if you purposely get a soap you love from a fellow soaper (or soaper you don't know) and then try and reverse engineer the recipe or scent blend without their knowledge,


On the other hand, they say that copying someone else's idea is the sincerest form of flattery. It happens in home decorating among friends... a lot! LOL


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## Anglezarke (Aug 17, 2019)

If you look at a soap ingredients list, it is highly unlikely that the recipe is unique, unless you have some undiscovered wonder-oil in there which nobody else has discovered.  It's almost impossible to create a new soap recipe just like it's almost impossible to create a new recipe for all-butter shortbread.

To me, there's a difference between copying a recipe and stealing actual soap.  Unless you have IP / patent on your recipe.

Getting a fellow soapers stuff to copy is plagiarism and perhaps disrespectful, but not theft.  Not very creative though is it!


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## David Christopher (Aug 17, 2019)

Misschief said:


> Sorry, just had to chuckle at your post.... "many diapers"???


See I was trying to hide the names


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## melinda48 (Aug 17, 2019)

David Christopher said:


> I totally understand that many diapers work on their recipes fo years ( or always months) however. I was wondering how much of an online recipe needs to be modified before it’s not “stealing” I’ve taken a basic Crisco recipe and have used goats milk instead of water. As well I have added items such as honey and/or ingredients like pumpkin.. does is adjusting the water content considered a modification
> I also took the original recipe and ran it through Soapcal and that adjusted the amounts as well.
> What’s the proper way to respect other soapers
> Thanks Dave


When someone makes a recipe public, whether it is soap or food or whatever, I believe they do so to share with others. If that was not their intent, why would they share it so publicly?


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## David Christopher (Aug 17, 2019)

Thanks everyone.. I appreciate the help


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## penelopejane (Aug 17, 2019)

David Christopher said:


> I totally understand that many diapers work on their recipes fo years ( or always months) however. I was wondering how much of an online recipe needs to be modified before it’s not “stealing” I’ve taken a basic Crisco recipe and have used goats milk instead of water. As well I have added items such as honey and/or ingredients like pumpkin.. does is adjusting the water content considered a modification
> I also took the original recipe and ran it through Soapcal and that adjusted the amounts as well.
> What’s the proper way to respect other soapers
> Thanks Dave


Just in case you don’t know when you add pumpkin purée it is considered as water and comes off the water in the recipe. So if the recipe requires 150g water you can add 50g water and 100g pumpkin purée.


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## David Christopher (Aug 17, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> Just in case you don’t know when you add pumpkin purée it is considered as water and comes off the water in the recipe. So if the recipe requires 150g water you can add 50g water and 100g pumpkin purée.


Thanks
BTW it seems when you add Pumpkin. The soap does not seem to be as “smooth” . Meaning it’s kind of got fiber striations?


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## shunt2011 (Aug 17, 2019)

David Christopher said:


> Thanks
> BTW it seems when you add Pumpkin. The soap does not seem to be as “smooth” . Meaning it’s kind of got fiber striations?



I’ve never noticed that in my pumpkin soap.  I blend it really well into my oils before adding my lye. So maybe my stick blender does a good job.


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## penelopejane (Aug 18, 2019)

David Christopher said:


> Thanks
> BTW it seems when you add Pumpkin. The soap does not seem to be as “smooth” . Meaning it’s kind of got fiber striations?


I steam my pumpkin and then put it in a blender to blend it until it is very, very smooth.  If I use too much water to get it smooth I heat on the stove top it until it is pretty dry.  If you use that method you will avoid the fibres.


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## David Gregory (Aug 22, 2019)

I've probably spent hours on a lye calculator [Thanks Wholesale Supplies Plus: The only one I found immediately easy to use] plugging in various oils in different combinations to discover aspects which gave: hardness, cleansing ability, bubbles, conditioning, low linoleic and linolenic [to avoid DOS and possibilities of rancidity developing].

It is said you can fill a room with monkeys and give each a typewriter and eventually they'll type out a novel [or a dart board with the stock exchange listings on it and they'll create a profitable hedge fund].

If I get lucky and find THE recipe, it won't be my own skills but chance. And I'll share it with everyone. Likelihood: zero. Hope: infinite.

Ook ook.


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## Norine Holland (Aug 22, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> @artemis Why would swirling or fragrance blending be different?   If there's a technique or fragrance blend that's been shared on the interwebs or youtube I think it's still fair game.  They wouldn't show how to do it if they didn't think someone was going to try it or utilize it.   The challenges here are generally based on a technique someone else has done and posted somewhere.   And others freely share blending ideas.



Bottom Line—- If you dont want it used, or sold, dont post it on an international web site. Its YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, not the readers. If someone wishes to use, or sell something I post, I consider it a compliment whether or not they credit me. There are only so many itterations of a recipe in the long run. You may think its “yours” when many have used a same recipe they did not read anywhere. Spending time being hurt benefits no one.


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## bookreader451 (Aug 22, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> I steam my pumpkin and then put it in a blender to blend it until it is very, very smooth.  If I use too much water to get it smooth I heat on the stove top it until it is pretty dry.  If you use that method you will avoid the fibres.


I use a lot of pumpkin (not in soap cause I am new at that) but boil it, throw it in a blender then line a strainer with coffee filter and set over a bowl, cover with plastic and let it sit.  It is smooth and creamy but not watery at all.


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## David Christopher (Aug 23, 2019)

David Gregory said:


> I've probably spent hours on a lye calculator [Thanks Wholesale Supplies Plus: The only one I found immediately easy to use] plugging in various oils in different combinations to discover aspects which gave: hardness, cleansing ability, bubbles, conditioning, low linoleic and linolenic [to avoid DOS and possibilities of rancidity developing].
> 
> It is said you can fill a room with monkeys and give each a typewriter and eventually they'll type out a novel [or a dart board with the stock exchange listings on it and they'll create a profitable hedge fund].
> 
> ...


I totally gotcha .. I feel the same way .. but I just wanted to hear from some of y’all experienced soap monkeys



penelopejane said:


> I steam my pumpkin and then put it in a blender to blend it until it is very, very smooth.  If I use too much water to get it smooth I heat on the stove top it until it is pretty dry.  If you use that method you will avoid the fibres.


Thanks will do ... Pumpkin is one of my favorites


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## penelopejane (Aug 28, 2019)

David Gregory said:


> I've probably spent hours on a lye calculator [Thanks Wholesale Supplies Plus: The only one I found immediately easy to use] plugging in various oils in different combinations to discover aspects which gave: hardness, cleansing ability, bubbles, conditioning, low linoleic and linolenic [to avoid DOS and possibilities of rancidity developing].
> 
> If I get lucky and find THE recipe, it won't be my own skills but chance. And I'll share it with everyone. Likelihood: zero. Hope: infinite.
> 
> Ook ook.


I don't use the soap calcs to work out a good recipe because they aren't very reliable especially for Olive oil soap. A better method of calculating the various aspects of soap is to use DeeAnna's method listed in her notes. 

There are lots of free, excellent recipes in the last 5 pages of the forum. It is a matter of finding one suitable to your skin and your own personal preferences.  Good luck.


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## Saltwater Scented (Aug 28, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> I don't use the soap calcs to work out a good recipe because they aren't very reliable especially for Olive oil soap. _*A better method of calculating the various aspects of soap is to use DeeAnna's method listed in her notes. *_
> 
> There are lots of free, excellent recipes in the last 5 pages of the forum. It is a matter of finding one suitable to your skin and your own personal preferences.  Good luck.



Where might that be listed?  I'm loving the amount of information to learn from here.


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## Aquamarine56 (Aug 29, 2019)

I would not be advocating online the merits of not using a lye calculator, especially for newbies, of which there would be many on this site. It's best to be safe and if you find a soap recipe online, it is still safest to run it through your calculator to check the ingredients and measurements.


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## shunt2011 (Aug 29, 2019)

Saltwater Scented said:


> Where might that be listed?  I'm loving the amount of information to learn from here.



Here you go!  A lot of awesome information for making soapy stuff.

https://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.asp


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## earlene (Aug 31, 2019)

Aquamarine56 said:


> I would not be advocating online the merits of not using a lye calculator, especially for newbies, of which there would be many on this site. It's best to be safe and if you find a soap recipe online, it is still safest to run it through your calculator to check the ingredients and measurements.



*Aquamarine56*, I believe *penelopejane* was saying that lye calculators are not good for developing a good recipe.  I do not believe she meant to infer that one should not use a lye calculator for figuring out how much lye is required once a good recipe is formulated using guidelines as indicated in *DeeAnna*'s soapy stuff articles.

Repeatedly, people here say to run a revised, borrowed, or new recipe through a lye calculator to be sure the amount of lye being used is correct.  PJ is one of those people, and so is DeeAnna.


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## penelopejane (Sep 16, 2019)

Aquamarine56 said:


> I would not be advocating online the merits of not using a lye calculator, especially for newbies, of which there would be many on this site. It's best to be safe and if you find a soap recipe online, it is still safest to run it through your calculator to check the ingredients and measurements.


You are right.  Every recipe should be run through a calculator. 

What I was saying, as Earlene confirmed was that "the numbers" that come out of calculators relating to conditioning, hardness etc do not work very well, especially for me because I use high olive oils soaps.  Lye calculator "numbers" don't take into account that OO soaps become very, very hard after a long cure.


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## TheGecko (Sep 16, 2019)

David Christopher said:


> I totally understand that many diapers work on their recipes fo years ( or always months) however. I was wondering how much of an online recipe needs to be modified before it’s not “stealing” I’ve taken a basic Crisco recipe and have used goats milk instead of water. As well I have added items such as honey and/or ingredients like pumpkin.. does is adjusting the water content considered a modification
> I also took the original recipe and ran it through Soapcal and that adjusted the amounts as well.
> What’s the proper way to respect other soapers
> Thanks Dave



If a recipe has been posted online, it is being freely given and thus you are not stealing (take [another person's property] without permission or legal right) it.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 16, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> ... A better method of calculating the various aspects of soap is to use DeeAnna's method listed in her notes....



I think the specific article on my website that relates to this discussion is this -- https://classicbells.com/soap/soapCalcNumbers.asp



TheGecko said:


> If a recipe has been posted online, it is being freely given and thus you are not stealing (take [another person's property] without permission or legal right) it.



I think most of us would agree it would be very difficult to prove a particular soap recipe is utterly owned by one person. But taken in a broad sense, the advice "if you can find it online, it's fair game to take" may violate copyright laws and if so, yes, that is stealing.

Online intellectual property is protected by copyright unless a person _explicitly _gives up copyright protection by stating the info is in the public domain or otherwise by clearly relinquishing ownership. You don't have to have the (c) mark or copyright statements plastered everywhere for copyright protection to exist.

For public forums like this one, people may waive their rights to copyright protection if they post comments on the forum. The Terms of Service for a public site should address that issue of whether comments are owned by the poster or by the forum or are in the public domain -- it can vary.

I have put a large number of informational articles on my website, and I can and do maintain my copyright protection for these online resources. I would be (and have been) greatly peeved to have some stranger take my intellectual property without my permission. Makes no difference whether it's an article on my website or in hardcopy form. I know people do this, but it isn't legal, nor do I like it.


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## TheGecko (Sep 17, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> I think most of us would agree it would be very difficult to prove a particular soap recipe is utterly owned by one person. But taken in a broad sense, the advice "if you can find it online, it's fair game to take" may violate copyright laws and if so, yes, that is stealing.
> 
> Online intellectual property is protected by copyright unless a person _explicitly _gives up copyright protection by stating the info is in the public domain or otherwise by clearly relinquishing ownership. You don't have to have the (c) mark or copyright statements plastered everywhere for copyright protection to exist.
> 
> ...



I think we have a bit of a miscommunication here.  

Copyright law has nothing to do with USING a recipe you found online...regardless of whether you are making soap, cookies or white chicken chili (yum).

_When it comes to recipes and copyright in the U.S., the law is very clear that copyright does not protect recipes, “That are mere listings of ingredients,” However, it can, “Extend to to substantial literary expression – a description, explanation, or illustration, for example – that accompanies a recipe or formula…”

What this means is that the basics of a recipe are not copyright protected. The list of ingredients and the actual steps that one takes to complete it are not protectable as they are mere facts and formulas. However, the expression of that recipe can be protected, especially if there is a literary description, images, illustrations or other elements along with the recipe._

See 17 U.S.C. 102(b)


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## DeeAnna (Sep 17, 2019)

You wrote -- _"....Copyright law has nothing to do with USING a recipe you found online...."_

Nope, no miscommunication. I understood what you were saying and acknowledged your point in my previous post --

"..._I think most of us would agree it would be very difficult to prove a particular soap recipe is utterly owned by one person...._"

I just took it a little further to make my own point --

_"...But taken in a broad sense, the advice "if you can find it online, it's fair game to take" may violate copyright laws and if so, yes, that is stealing_....


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## Mistrael (Sep 18, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Excellent question! I try to give credit where credit is due. For example, the arthritis cream I make is tweaked to my satisfaction, but, when sharing the recipe, I give credit to Linda Lorenzo who first shared her recipe with me in a class on another forum.



Arthritis cream? What type(s) of arthritis? One of my friends has RA and might be interested in anything that could help.


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## Zany_in_CO (Sep 19, 2019)

Mistrael said:


> Arthritis cream? What type(s) of arthritis? One of my friends has RA and might be interested in anything that could help.


Please feel free to contact me, @Mistrael. Click on my avatar, choose "Start conversation" and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.


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