# Advice while 1st Pine tar soap oils cooling!



## mandy318 (Oct 9, 2015)

I have planned on trying a pine tar soap for some time. I've been reading up on it and I thought I had a good handle on it. Chose a recipe I've used several times now--no scents, no additives. 

Then, while I'm sitting here waiting for my lye water and oils to cool I stumble across a post that mentions NOT to calculate the oz of pine tar in your totals on soap calc (or to adjust your oils down proportionally to account for the pine tar) because pine tar doesn't saponify like the oils will. 

I assumed, since pine tar is listed with the oils on soap calc, that soap calc knew to account for it. 

My recipe is attached. Do I need to add more oils so this soap won't be lye heavy??

ETA: Sorry, I can't attach for some reason. 

Lard:20 oz
Olive Oil:5.2 oz
Coconut Oil:8 oz
Pine Tar:4.8 oz
Castor: 2 oz
Water: 15.2 oz
Lye: 5.18 oz


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## galaxyMLP (Oct 9, 2015)

I've never made pine tar soap but, I can say that from what I've read Pine Tar does have a SAP value.

Ok, the info you got is right and wrong it seems. Its right in the sense that pine tar is not like the rest of your oils but is wrong by saying that it should not be counted in your oils totals because it DOES "eat up" some of the lye. Pine tar isnt composed of triglycerides of fatty acids so it isn't like your other oils in that sense. 

You are right to add it in with your oils in soap calc.

I ran it on soapee and got 5.18 oz of lye just like you did. If you take out the pine tar, you only need 4.99 oz lye. Thats actually a pretty substantial difference and I didn't expect that. Now, if you don't add it into your lye calculation, you'll just end up with an overly superfatted soap. In this case, about 9% instead of 5%. Is that going to be a huge problem? No, probably not but, its best to do your calcs correctly when you can!

If my info is totally wrong, feel free to correct me!


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## DeeAnna (Oct 9, 2015)

Pine tar may not saponify, but it DOES consume lye. Quite a bit in fact. So DO include it as if it was a fat when entering your recipe into your soap recipe calculator. The lye consumed by PT is handled exactly the same as the sap value for a fat, so that's how Soapcalc treats PT -- as if it were a fat.


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## nsmar4211 (Oct 9, 2015)

I ran my recipe through soapcalc like you did on the two batches I've made...following with interest .


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## dixiedragon (Oct 9, 2015)

I don't know the science, but I can tell you that I've made soap that was 20% pine tar using soap calc, putting the amount of pine tar into the calculator and choosing the 5% superfat button, and the soap was fine.

ETA: Fine meaning it didn't zap and when I used it was fine.


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## mandy318 (Oct 9, 2015)

Thanks all for the quick advice. It was in an old thread here that I came across that suggestion. One of the biggest challenges I'm finding along my soapy journey is sifting through the mountains of information and tid bits to find the best recipes and methods!!


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## seven (Oct 10, 2015)

You did right by incorporating the pt into soapcalc. Soap cool is all i can say.. Once i was impatient and poured the stinking hot lye to rt oils = disaster


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## mandy318 (Oct 10, 2015)

Turned out pretty good, I think! Can't wait to try it. This is very different texture than any other soap I've made. Even hardened, its sticky and really stuck to my cutter..


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## nsmar4211 (Oct 10, 2015)

It will stop being sticky eventually...well, it should . Mine took a while to stop being fudge but it's ok now.


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## Susie (Oct 10, 2015)

How long, approximately, does it take to stop being sticky?


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## commoncenz (Oct 10, 2015)

Susie said:


> How long, approximately, does it take to stop being sticky?



Mine usually stop being sticky within the week. But, they stay softish for another 4-5 days. By the end of a good 6 week cure, they are hard as rocks.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 10, 2015)

PT soap can easily be soft and sticky, but I've been trying to make a recipe that isn't -- and one that hopefully will last longer in the ongoing contest between the soap and my DH's hairy chest. In my ongoing adventure to figure out a good recipe for PT soap, I have learned a couple of things. 

Just a dab of CO will do ya. The PT makes the soap lather more than you'd expect. Coupled with a higher CO recipe, this means the soap will have a shorter lifetime in the shower. Aim instead for a higher than usual stearic + palmitic % rather than a high cleansing %. Also don't overdo the soft (liquid) fats -- stick with a recipe higher in hard/solid fats. 

I made this recipe last night and unmolded and cut it this morning, 12 hours later. The bars are dry, firm, and definitely not sticky. I think the tallow added enough extra stearic and palmitic acids, compared to using just lard, to make an nicely firm bar. I was very pleased. 

Castor Bean Oil 5.0%
Pine tar 10.0%
Coconut Oil 10.0%
Tallow (beef) 30.0%
Lard	45.0%

3% superfat. No fragrance. EDTA based on 0.5% powder by weight based on total paste weight (water + lye + fat). Distilled water as the only the water-phase liquid. Lye solution concentration of 31%. No other additives.

Make sure all fats are fully melted, but are no more than pleasantly warm to the touch (under 120 deg F). Split the oils roughly in half. Blend the PT and EDTA into one half of the melted oils until the mixture has a uniform appearance. A stick blender is helpful.

Allow the lye to cool until just warm to the touch. Add the lye to the plain half of the oils. Bring this soap batter to a light trace as you normally would. If using a stick blender, set the SB aside. Step back, check your mold to make sure it's ready for use and close to hand before going on to the next step.

Now hand mix the PT-oil mixture into the soap batter. Gently hand stir until the top surface of the batter _just_ begins to lose its shiny oily-smooth look. This may happen in well under 1 minute (at least that's my usual experience) or it may take minutes. Do NOT stir longer -- not even one more go around! Pour immediately into a mold. If using a log mold, let the soap saponify at room temperature, uninsulated.

Hardness 	44
Cleansing	10
Long lasting 	35 (stearic + palmitic)
Conditioning	41
Bubbly	14
Creamy	39

Fatty acid profile	
Lauric	5
Myristic	4
Palmitic	22
Stearic	13
Oleic	33
Ricinoleic	5
Linoleic	4
Linolenic	0


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## nsmar4211 (Oct 10, 2015)

On my way to work but coming back later to read DeeAnna's post!

Sticky wise, it was a good two weeks. BUT, I used an individual silicone bar mold, which seems to hold sticky/soft in longer in all my batches. And I now know better than using a mold that I want to reuse in a day or two!


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## DeeAnna (Oct 10, 2015)

Some thoughts -- 

The EDTA is definitely optional. 

Until recently, I didn't have any tallow to use, so I typically used slight variations on a theme that included a high amount of lard as the base fat, 5% castor, 10-15% CO, and about 10% high oleic safflower (sub for olive). Oh, and the 10% pine tar. This made a somewhat softer bar that DH and I liked pretty well. It is not mooshy goopy soft -- just soft enough that I wanted to wait about 24-36 hours after molding to be able to cut it nicely. 

I suppose I could modify the non-tallow high-lard recipe to add some stearic acid for extra hardness. I've avoided that because soaping with pine tar is tricky enough without adding stearic acid to the mess. But it's an option to consider someday when I run out of tallow (a gift from my soaping friend Renae).


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## brandnew (Oct 10, 2015)

Thanks for the recipe DeeAnna! Will try it with palm....can't get any tallow....

I am thrilled this thread was started! Just made my first batch last night! Followed soaping 101's directions substituting shea for cocoa butter(didn't have any and couldn't wait since I had found the pine tar! )......everyone says do not sb....well it was like water! So I afforded myself the luxury of sb for 30 seconds and was relieved to find it thickening as she'd described. I put mine in silicone moulds because it was pourable but now thinking it was a MI-stake because silicone tends to hold the fragrance! Oh boy!:roll: 

glad to hear they harden up well after 6 weeks. Can anyone suggest a fragrance or eo to help the scent? Or does it calm down after several weeks?  Whilst the kids are at school I use my son's room to let them cure a bit....I daren't with the pine tar!! It is just on a stool at the end of the hallway and that is all we can smell!  Making it for my friend's daughter to hopefully help those inconvenient occasional  outbreaks of pimples. Lol


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## DeeAnna (Oct 10, 2015)

Patience on the scent. It will never go away, but it will soften and lighten up with time. That's been true for all the batches I've made. And maybe as a person makes more of this recipe, the odor becomes less objectionable and more familiar. My first batch ... ugh! ... but now that I'm on my 7th batch as of this weekend, it's no big deal.

The brand may make a difference too. I started with the Bickmore brand that is available in the US, and that product has more of a burnt rubber tang. The Swedish Auson "Kiln Burn" pine tar I am using now is more like a pungent smoky campfire -- strong, yes, but none of that burnt rubber scent. I have my cut bars in the kitchen on top of a cupboard. I've been in the kitchen all day, but I can't smell the PT unless I stick my nose in the box. 

The shea or cocoa butter will add the stearic and palmitic acids that I think are important for making this recipe as firm, non-goopy as possible. Cocoa butter would add the most stearic-palmitic, but shea is a decent alternative.


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## commoncenz (Oct 10, 2015)

Also on scent ... for some reason, when I add Tea Tree and Lemon Grass to a pine tar soap in a 1:1.5 ratio at .5 Oz ppo, it cures out to a nice mellow gingerbread smell. At first I thought it was just me and my weird sniffer. However, others who I've gifted the soap to have stated that it smells like gingerbread to them ... without my having mentioned it.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 10, 2015)

Niiiccce! Thanks, Patrick!


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## brandnew (Oct 11, 2015)

Oooooo...love gingerbread! Will definitely give it a try! Thanks for all the comments. I put in lavender and tea tree....we'll see.....mine is a norweigan brand , hope it behaves the same....

commencenz.....do you use cocoa butter also? Was wondering if that might affect the smell.....


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## mandy318 (Oct 11, 2015)

An update on the soap I posted about---I made it Friday, cut it Saturday morning. Today it is already considerably less sticky and the smell is GREATLY reduced. I only smell the pine tar if I stick my nose directly on the bar. I didn't use any scents or other additives. 

Can't wait to try it!!

ETA: Thanks for all the wonderful info on this thread!


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## brandnew (Oct 12, 2015)

is anyone there?.....disaster!....I had left my soap in the silicone mould for a few days now and was curious, of course, and popped one out and there was a small lye heavy pool at the bottom! :sad: I am soooooooo disappointed! Haven't soaped all summer worrying about all the things tied up with university (another first, and two at the same time!) coming back to soaping and having a mini disaster (just when i was 'considering' trying to go legal and sell, in a small way, but legal....) although the pine tar was solely for my son's skin problem. Another reason to be disappointed! ANYWAY....here it is

314g oo
138g ccn
138g pt
85g castor
85g shea (sub. for cocoa butter in the Soaping 101 recipe)

the fault must lie in my mixing....ooo was that a pun?!?  gotta keep a sense of humour....I heated the pt slightly and added it to the mixed soap. I was surprised to see how liquidy mine was, compared to the video...sb a bit and then put in the mould....any advice highly welcomed as I am dying to try it again. Would like to try DeeAnna's recipe, substituting palm for tallow....

thanks in advance!


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## DeeAnna (Oct 12, 2015)

If you added the warmed pine tar as a separate ingredient toward the last, the relatively large volume of warmed pine tar may have broken the soap emulsion and so the batter separated in the mold. Pine tar soap doesn't usually pull that kind of naughty trick, but it's certainly a possibility for any soap. 

If it's only a smallish layer of watery liquid, you might try letting the soap sit in the mold for, oh maybe another few days to a week and keep checking. The watery layer may absorb back into the soap and be fine after a nice cure time. The other option is to unmold the soap and let the watery layer drain off -- wear gloves and eye protection! -- and then let the soap dry and cure. Your superfat will be higher than you had planned, but the soap will be skin safe.

Next time, stir cautiously after adding the PT and watch the fluidity of the batter. If it thinned down (or remained thin) after adding the PT, keep gently stirring the batter until you see the batter establish or re-establish a clear pattern of thickening. You might have even needed to stick blend a brief second or two -- not sure about that since I wasn't with you when you made the soap, but it's something to keep in mind.

That said, once PT soap starts to saponify it usually thickens so fast, it doesn't show "trace" as you see with other soap batters. At one moment, the surface of batter will be shiny and smooth, a second or two later the surface will look grainy and dull, and a few seconds after that the batter will become thick pudding. One extra go-around with the spatula can make the difference between a pourable batter and one that has to be scraped and spooned into the mold. The goal is to pour right at the beginning of the "grainy and dull" stage. 

When I do this type of soap, I've done it two ways and both work. I like either method better than adding pure PT at emulsion/trace, because my methods give me all the time I need to thoroughly blend the PT into the fats before the PT sees any lye. First way is to mix the PT with all of the oils and then add the lye. One maybe two careful bursts of the SB to mix the lye into the fats, then hand stir until the batter looks dull and slightly grainy on the surface, and pour like mad. Second way is to split the fats and add the PT to one half and blend really well. Add all of the lye solution to the other half of the fats and get that batter to emulsion or light trace. Stir in the PT mixture, hand stir until the batter looks dull and slightly grainy, and pour like mad. The second method avoids having to SB the batter after the lye sees the PT, but it's a bit more of a hassle.


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## brandnew (Oct 12, 2015)

Thanking you much DeeAnna! Will take your advice......and next time sb a bit longer. I did but just a quickie and it hadn't gotten grainy yet....I probably pour too soon. Really appreciate the detailed answers you give. Been soaping for a couple of years now but one disaster brings back the humility! :Kitten Love:


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## commoncenz (Oct 12, 2015)

brandnew said:


> Thanking you much DeeAnna! Will take your advice......*and next time sb a bit longer.* I did but just a quickie and it hadn't gotten grainy yet....I probably pour too soon. Really appreciate the detailed answers you give. Been soaping for a couple of years now but one disaster brings back the humility! :Kitten Love:



I think you may have missed a very important part of what DeeAnna was saying. When you are attempting to get the pine tar incorporated into the soap batter, you don't want to over stick blend. The pine tar will make the batter move quickly on its own. 

Personally, I don't stick blend the pine tar batter anymore. I tried it once; one second I was looking at grainy batter and the next second ... "BAM", THICK, THICK pudding. So, I've taken to stirring this type of batter with either a large silicone spatula or a large plastic spoon. It slows the process a bit and allows me to actually see the different stages so that I can tell when the batter is ready to pour.

If you have to SB, do so carefully. A few small, quick bursts on the low setting, stir with the stick blender after ... and then move to hand stirring only.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 12, 2015)

My last batch of cp:

Me - "looks like it's tracing nicely. Just one more blast with the STABMIXER....."

Me - "....and I'm having to grab it out of my bucket with my hands and shove it in to my moulds as it is now the consistency of clay mud"


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## brandnew (Oct 12, 2015)

STICK BLENDERS HAVE MORE THAN JUST ONE BUTTON??? :smile: you have the deluxe version! Sorry commencenz!!! I meant stir a bit longer! Goodness gracious me...gonna have to concentrate more! Sorry the ol' brain is everywhere at the moment but hopefully not when making the soap! Believe me I understood! I think it was the nerdy farmer's wife.....can't remember.....who wrote on every other line of her recipe..."do not stick blend"....plus on the soaping 101 tutorial there was no need WHATSOEVER to sb.....and that is why I was so surprised mine was so liquidy even after stirring and stirring and stirring! ?....I knew something wasn't quite right...:eh: 

thanks E.G. I don't feel so alone.....

but thank you all for the advice......holding breath with the first batch and trying DeeAnna's recipe/method tomorrow! Hmmmmm...think I could be successful doing it with all me fingers crossed?!?


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## DeeAnna (Oct 12, 2015)

Gent ... you're too funny, but so on-target!  

Like I said earlier, I just got done with my 7th batch, and I'd say I've been able to pour the soap into the mold only about two times in seven. It's that one last stir with the spatula that gets me every time.


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## Susie (Oct 12, 2015)

commoncenz said:


> Also on scent ... for some reason, when I add Tea Tree and Lemon Grass to a pine tar soap in a 1:1.5 ratio at .5 Oz ppo, it cures out to a nice mellow gingerbread smell. At first I thought it was just me and my weird sniffer. However, others who I've gifted the soap to have stated that it smells like gingerbread to them ... without my having mentioned it.



Which PT brand are you using?  I love the gingerbread smell!

DeeAnna- I can't get tallow or palm here, and I would rather not order base oils online if I can help it.  I also just do not have time to render suet right now, and probably not until after the holidays.  Could you possibly suggest a lard, cocoa butter, PT, etc recipe, pretty please?


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## commoncenz (Oct 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> Which PT brand are you using?  I love the gingerbread smell!



I've used both the NOW and the Aura Cacia brands of EO. The PT I use is the "Horses Health Products" brand from Farnam.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 12, 2015)

Okay, Susie, you sweet talker you! Here's an idea for you to consider. I used a free hand with the lard, since you and I are both lard loving soapers!

Castor Bean Oil	5.0%
Pine tar	10.0%
Coconut Oil 	10.0%
Cocoa Butter	15.0%
Lard	60.0%

I would do lard at 60% with 15% cocoa butter or do lard at 65% and cocoa butter at 10%, whichever you like best. You could also drop the cocoa butter entirely and increase the lard appropriately, but I like the little boost of hardness from the stearic in the cocoa butter. 

I'd soap at 30% to 33% lye concentration, again to get a firmer soap sooner. I used 31% in my last batch, but previous batches were soaped with 33% lye concentration. Can't say there was a huge difference between the two, so use the lye concentration that you're most comfortable with. I wouldn't use "full water" since PT moves so fast regardless of what you do -- I think all you get with full water is the downside of greater softness.

The numbers" for the 60% lard + 15% cocoa butter version are --
Hardness 	42
Cleansing	7
Long lasting 	35
Conditioning	43
Bubbly	12
Creamy	39

Fatty acid profile	
Lauric	5
Myristic	3
Palmitic	22
Stearic	13
Oleic	34
Ricinoleic	5
Linoleic	4
Linolenic	0
INS	138


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## brandnew (Oct 13, 2015)

DeeAnna I haven't had the confidence to change my lye concentration but reading your post makes me want to move out of the ol' comfort zone..... 


and thank you...took the bars out of the mould and the zap has already begun to fade greatly! Whew!! I think I will put these away to cure for a long while and hope the 2nd batch is better......trying to get myself together for the feather swirl challenge ........

thanks all!


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## DeeAnna (Oct 14, 2015)

I encourage you to try it, Brandnew. Don't make big changes, especially while you're learning. If you've been using recipes at 28% lye concentration (aka about full water), just increase the lye concentration a couple of percent -- maybe 30% -- and get used to that. You can go more concentrated from there, if you like. From what I've gathered, most of us who use more concentrated lye are generally soaping with a 30% to 33% lye concentration, so little changes are good enough.


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## brandnew (Oct 15, 2015)

Oops! Too late...I tried a 33% with a regular recipe and was so nervous about the outcome!. I think I must've stirred for 15 minutes! ..... whew...all's well! Funny you should say that because this morning i woke up thinking ....hmmm wonder if i could soap at a % just a tad bit higher than full...and to be honest I think I will back up to 30 and get comfy with that!  Thank you much for the encouragement DeeAnna! I have been happily soapin' and swirlin' full water for a few years....some folks are a bit slow......and it is nice to meet a new challenge.


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