# Soap Calc's are decieving!



## iwannasoap (Nov 9, 2017)

If you are one of those who make beautiful, long lasting soaps, this is not for you.
I wrote this for people who might not realize the amount of water effects everything including the amount of oils and lye  you use. If I have offended anybody I apologize and I readily admit  that I have a lot to learn but I already know "Never to pour a whole  bottle of salt in 30 oz of oil". 

I  am so glad your reading this! Weight and  type of fats and the superfat are NOT the only factors that determine the  NaOH weight. 
" because it is what so many soapers don't realize which is also what  stumped me because it is not taught - Especially from a bad program  design of a soap calculator. (I know. I am a jobless programmer working  in another field)

This is where a soap calculator fails! You cannot see it but I can show you and give you background info. Follow me here,

Get on your favorite soap calc. I used Wholesale supplies plus.

Your scenario is "You only want 50 oz of Castille soap to fill your mold"
CLick the radio button for NaOH of course
Type in 37.1 oz of oil (I know this will make 50.01 oz @ .135 SAP Olive, Calc uses .131 probably. Close enough)
Delete the "Water as % of Oils"
Click on the "Water : Lye Ratio" radio button
Type in "60:40"
5% SF and leave the rest blank no fragrance. (None of that matters anyways for this experiment)
Double click Olive oil and make it 100%
Make sure "Multiple tabs is selected"
Click calculate
Click "View or Print"
Leave the tab it brought and go back to the original tab
Leave everything the same but change the "Water : Lye Ratio" to 55:45
Click calculate
Click "View or Print"
Leave the tab it brought and go back to the original tab
Leave everything the same but change the "Water : Lye Ratio" to 50:50

Leave those tabs up for now so I can explain something. I will start from the simple to more of a soaping point of view.
First realize this - if you have a 16 oz cup and you wanted to fill it  with 2 ingredients, whatever it may be, Ingredient 1 would be 8 oz and  Ingredient 2 would be 8 oz. If you wanted to change those ingredients  and still make 16 oz your next step would be Ingredient 1 changes to 7  oz and Ingredient 2 changes to 9 oz. to total 16. Next would be  Ingredient 1 changes to 6 oz and Ingredient 2 changes to 10 oz for a  total of 16 oz to fill the bottle.
This relationship between Ingredient 1 and 2 depend on each other. When  ever one changes the other changes to be able to get the same total oz.

Now, lets make it a little more complicated. Lets put 3 ingredients in the bottle. Lets make 1 lye, 2 water, 3 oil.
Each one of those depend on each other but much more intricate since it involves 3 values.
This is actual numbers for this scenario to make 16 oz loaf
Watch closely
Water lye ratio 50:50
Olive oil: 358.62 gr (12.64 oz)
Water: 47.45 gr  (1.67 oz)
Lye: 47.45 gr ( 1.67 oz.)
Please keep in mind, ounces are not as accurate as grams when adding this.
Results in 16 oz soap

If I increase my water 4.69 grams I will now have a total of 16.16 oz of  soap. I don't want that. I want 16 oz because that will waste soap.  Besides that, how will I screw on my bottle cap? So something else will  have to decrease. The only thing I have left to decrease is the oil. And  if I decrease the oil, I will HAVE to decrease the lye!

The new numbers will be
Oil: 354.94 g (12.52 oz)
Lye:46.96 g (1.66 oz)
Water: 51.65 g (1.82 oz)


Since I added more water, the oil in my recipe is now 354.94 gr (12.52 oz)
which is less then the first scenario to make the same 16 oz of soap.
This is also where the calc fails but going the opposite direction.

Go back to those tabs that you pulled up separately so I can demonstrate  where a calc fails please. If you look closely you will see a couple of  things wrong and I'll point that out. The end result though means that  the real difference between the 50:50 ratio and the last one at 60:40  should actually be 9 more grams of lye (which is significant because  ((49.037 - 46.65) * .135) but yet it does not show the oil increasing or  decreasing. It only shows your total oz. going up. Remember, in this  scenario you only want a certain amount to stay constant. No matter what  that may be.

If you look through the tabs and add up all the weights (49.037 oz,  47.711 oz, 46.65 oz) You will see every thing, for some reason, stayed  the same EXCEPT for your total amount. As you decreased (or increased)  your water, your total weight ALSO went down. It went down to 46.65 oz  and that is not what you wanted. You wanted 50oz.

*The only way to fix that is to go back to the original tab and increase your oil amount to 39.54 (which is 2.44 oz greater then originally which takes more lye.)

So, you see, by adjusting the water your actually increasing or  decreasing the amount of soap in the bar and possibly the loaf. Water  does not turn into soap but it has everything to do with the amount of  oil and lye that you use.
*
*
*
Some people might think that controlling the water you do not effect the oil amount and lye amount but if you were patient I hope I showed this not to be the case.


Hope this helps you. I really do. You will have more control and more soap in the same size bar.


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## Millie (Nov 9, 2017)

Hi Iwannasoap, thanks for starting this thread. I'm sorry for being a little brash in my last reply to you, and I'm glad you pulled all the info you have shared throughout the forum in one spot.


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## Obsidian (Nov 9, 2017)

I'm having a real hard time following this. My recipes have the same amount of oil every time, regardless of the amount I water I choose to use. The lye also stays the same, every single time.


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## Primrose (Nov 9, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> I'm having a real hard time following this. My recipes have the same amount of oil every time, regardless of the amount I water I choose to use. The lye also stays the same, every single time.



Ditto. 

Though the overall size of the batch of soap batter changes. This is logical since you are using more, or less, liquid. 

I'm a bit lost too but what I THINK the OP is trying to say is that if you keep the overall batch size the same, but change the amount of water, that would mean to keep the same batch size your oil amount would have to change and thus your lye amount would change. 

Probably doesn't matter if you don't mind what size the batch turns out to be


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## Obsidian (Nov 9, 2017)

Ah, I see now. 
I don't include my water when I talk about batch size, my 16 oz recipe is 16 oz of oils. This is the way to do it if you want consistent results. I know my 16 oz batch will always have the same amount of oils and lye, for that matter it always has the same amount of water too as I have a set ratio I use.

But, even if you change the water ratio, the lye amount won't change unless you also change the oil amount and I don't know why anyone would do that. A couple extra oz of water in a recipe isn't going to affect how your recipe fits in a mold unless you are using way too much water.


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## Millie (Nov 9, 2017)

The reason I choose to take up more of my soap batter with water is so that I can easily achieve gel. I like the look, and I think it helps speed the beautiful crystalline structure of a well cured soap. That last bit I only learned about since I joined the forum. I'll have to read this again: 
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=35831

When I first started soaping, a wee bit over two years now (hurray!) I was perplexed by all the different water amounts suggested by different soapers. Many of my questions brought me here. In one thread I found, a few soapers had been tracking soap weight during a year+ of cure time and charted the changes in graphs. I might not remember the results perfectly today, but I think by around 4-5 months 80% of the excess water had evaporated, while in a year's time, 90-95% of the excess water had evaporated. I *think* this process was a little slower for soaps with minimal water. I decided on a 35% lye concentration because there wasn't too much excess water, but I could gel my soaps easily. 

At some point I calculated the shrinkage of my bars, so they could fit snuggly in some intricate handmade boxes at 4 months, and they still fit well, with just a tiny bit of space, after a year. I am too impatient to make fancy boxes now, but one way or another, I am happy with my soaps. I am pleased with their size, and the amount of actual soap in them


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## iwannasoap (Nov 9, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> I'm having a real hard time following this. My recipes have the same amount of oil every time, regardless of the amount I water I choose to use. The lye also stays the same, every single time.



Read the end then, but that is exactly the problem.
The desired amount you wanted is 50 oz.
Notice that when you add the Lye, water, and oil all together on a seperate calculator for each ratio that amount will get smaller and smaller. It will get down as low as 46.65 oz and that is not what you wanted. You wanted 50 oz.
The only way to solve that problem is to go back and raise your original oil amount to fill the same 50 oz space which proves that when your water increases or decreases your lye AND oil will change to make more soap and gel hotter. Please notice that when you change you oil amount your lye will go up also.
The program is supposed to loop the entire process over and over each time the print button is pressed, but it does not and many calculators do this.
It will probably do it going the reverse direction too so many soapers do not realize this and it will affect your soap.



Millie said:


> The reason I choose to take up more of my soap batter with water is so that I can easily achieve gel. I like the look, and I think it helps speed the beautiful crystalline structure of a well cured soap. That last bit I only learned about since I joined the forum. I'll have to read this again:
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=35831
> 
> When I first started soaping, a wee bit over two years now (hurray!) I was perplexed by all the different water amounts suggested by different soapers. Many of my questions brought me here. In one thread I found, a few soapers had been tracking soap weight during a year+ of cure time and charted the changes in graphs. I might not remember the results perfectly today, but I think by around 4-5 months 80% of the excess water had evaporated, while in a year's time, 90-95% of the excess water had evaporated. I *think* this process was a little slower for soaps with minimal water. I decided on a 35% lye concentration because there wasn't too much excess water, but I could gel my soaps easily.
> ...



For soaps with minimal water the process will be quicker but it can tread on a fine line of crumbly edges. To keep this from happening I use a 50 50 ratio of water and lye and then add about 15 more grams.



Obsidian said:


> Ah, I see now.
> I don't include my water when I talk about batch size, my 16 oz recipe is 16 oz of oils. This is the way to do it if you want consistent results. I know my 16 oz batch will always have the same amount of oils and lye, for that matter it always has the same amount of water too as I have a set ratio I use.
> 
> But, even if you change the water ratio, the lye amount won't change unless you also change the oil amount and I don't know why anyone would do that. A couple extra oz of water in a recipe isn't going to affect how your recipe fits in a mold unless you are using way too much water.



On a soap calculator it will not change. But your total amount will change to be able to use the same amount of lye. Add it up the next time with 3 different ratios. you will see total amount getting smaller or larger whatever you put in BUT it will not equal to the amount that you wanted.
Everything depends on everything to get the same amount in a loaf. As your water increases your oil and lye will have to decrease and visa versa. You just dont see it on a soap calc because they are not designed right. This is for people who want to get more soap out of the same size loaf. Water will not turn into soap. I do hope that you see it one day. Thank you

Exactly.
But in some cases, I have seen on here even, too much water is used and it causes problems with their soap. This is a way to realize that the more oil in a bar means more lye and it creates more soap to last longer then before!
Many people are under the impression that water has nothing to do with the calculation of lye and oil. I say it does becasue more water means less oil and less lye.



Millie said:


> Hi Iwannasoap, thanks for starting this thread. I'm sorry for being a little brash in my last reply to you, and I'm glad you pulled all the info you have shared throughout the forum in one spot.



No problem, I enjoyed it. I needed to actually see for myself instead of seeing it on a spreadsheet.


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## psfred (Nov 9, 2017)

The ratio of oil to lye does not change, and that's what I use a soap calculator for.  Changing the water amount will change the initial weight and volume of the soap, but has no effect at all on oil to lye ratio UNLESS YOU CHANGE THE AMOUNT OF OIL when you change the amount of water.  

The final dry volume of the soap will be determined by the oil weight, but more water will make the initial volume larger.  The soap made with high water will shrink as the excess water evaporates, sometimes warping when it does, or getting ripples (especially HP, which is somewhat less uniform when done than CP).  

I've made my molds to fit a particular amount of oil, with a bit of extra room in case I want to use extra water.  I expect them to be less than completely full if I do a water discount -- I leave the oil weight the same (500 g for standard bars, 420 gr for the smaller bars my mother likes).    HP soaps get a little extra water to start with, and usually a small amount after the cook to loosen them up, they mix and mold better that way.

I also like to keep things simple.  The only time I pay any attention to the final weight of the batch is when I'm making tester bars for scents, and that's only to figure out how much to weigh out for each one.  I don't sell soap, so the bar weight isn't an issue -- good thing as I have never manage to cut them very straight!


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## MorpheusPA (Nov 9, 2017)

I think...maybe...that what you're saying is that you're constraining the batch size to 16 and allowing all the constituent amounts to change?

Whereas most of us constrain the oil weight and let everything else, change.  Including the total batch weight.

In the case of most of us, with the oil weight stable (and the recipe the same), our lye weight will not change unless we change the super fat.  Water, however, can go from a severe water discount all the way to full water.

In your case, with oil weights changing, the amount of lye is absolutely going to change.  And with oil weights changing and lye weight changing, water weight is also going to change to make up the rest of the batch.

The consequences in both cases are normal and expected, and the most-of-us crew will produce a differing number of bars depending on our water weight.  You'll produce the same, but the total composition will differ.

Neither is in error, it's merely a matter of perspective and what you constrain on your batches.


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## Millie (Nov 10, 2017)

Basically, we each have our own preferred lye concentration. Iwannasoap likes 50%, I like 33-35%, you all might like something different. Iwannasoap has his own way of working out how to fit a batch in a mold, and doesn't like the idea of excess water. 

The real difference I see is his soaps won't gel. A high water soaper might choose to prevent gel with the help of a freezer. I like gel, and force it when I have to. 

I feel the need to end on a cheesy note: we are all in the same boat, it'll just take some of us a little longer to dry out our shoes


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 10, 2017)

It's interesting for those who, like you, change the oils and water to keep one batch size. But could you take the time to try to frame your statements along those lines? "Soapcalcs are decieving!" Sort of subject lines are a bit melodramatic when, for the way many people calculate recipes, they really aren't.


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## surf girl (Nov 10, 2017)

From what I can understand, the OP seems to be concerned about fitting a given volume of raw soap into a mold, and excited about the fact that if you use more water in your lye solution (40% solution vs, say 50% solution), you are going to have more total volume for a given mass of oil. 

That's kind of a given, yes? 

The ratio of lye used is determined by the mass of oil in the recipe, not by the amount of water used. If your intention is to have end up with a dry-mass soap that has a particular superfat %, the amount of water used is irrelevant to the amount of lye used - it's your choice, so long as you aren't going to overflow your mold. 

(Of course, yes, if you choose to use a certain lye solution % in order to have a particular total volume in your mold, i.e. if you prioritize the water volume above all else, that will affect the maximum amount of oil and lye you can use to fit in your mold. You'll still end up with the same dry mass of soap after a long enough cure, but if your goal is to completely fill up your mold, well, there you go. However, that volume of water will NOT affect the ratio of lye to oil).

Soap calculators are NOT misleading. You do, however, need to know what you are doing and what is being calculated and what actually matters in the end.

ETA: If I was not clear enough above - if I use 1051.77g (37.1 oz) of OO and want a 5% SF soap, I will use 133.89 g (4.72 oz) of lye. Period. That does not change. The ratio of lye to OO is 0.127:1. Period. That does not change. I can make the soap with a 40% lye solution or a 26% lye solution or a 50% lye solution - my choice will affect how much water I use in my lye solution, but will not affect how much lye is needed. However, if my 40% and 50% solutions fit my mold (water + lye + soap), but I really want to use a 26% lye solution and it has so much water in it that it will not fit my wee mold, obviously I need to have less other stuff in there in so I don't overflow my mold. So my overall mass of oil needs to be smaller. So will, therefore, the amount of lye I use need to be smaller. However, if I still want to make a 5% SF soap, the ratio of lye to oil with steadfastly remain at 0.127:1.

By the same token, when I use 1051.77g of OO and 133.89 g of oil, the final cured mass of my soap will be identical after a long enough cure (time for evaporation), regardless of whether I used a ****-ton of water, or a 50% solution. I'll just get there faster with the latter.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

psfred said:


> The ratio of oil to lye does not change, and that's what I use a soap calculator for.  Changing the water amount will change the initial weight and volume of the soap, but has no effect at all on oil to lye ratio UNLESS YOU CHANGE THE AMOUNT OF OIL when you change the amount of water.
> 
> The final dry volume of the soap will be determined by the oil weight, but more water will make the initial volume larger.  The soap made with high water will shrink as the excess water evaporates, sometimes warping when it does, or getting ripples (especially HP, which is somewhat less uniform when done than CP).
> 
> ...



If you want to keep your total weight the same, it will absolutely change unless you just want to change the consistency of your soap. In both adding water AND subtracting water, if the total weight remains the same, everything changes. 
Try putting this on a spreadsheet sometime. You will see much quicker and faster what your actually doing.
I need to add one more thing. The composition of my soap will be the exact same if I add water or didn't add water because my lye and oils adjust to the water. However, it is other soaps that will not remain the same. That will be the difference and in addition, mine will remain the same weight whereas other soapers who do not realize this will lose a certain amount of soap. That would mean in a 50 oz loaf going from 50:50 extreme ratio to a 60:40, you will lose almost 5oz.



MorpheusPA said:


> I think...maybe...that what you're saying is that you're constraining the batch size to 16 and allowing all the constituent amounts to change?
> 
> Whereas most of us constrain the oil weight and let everything else, change.  Including the total batch weight.
> 
> ...



Thank you for that kind comment. I do have  hidden goal though. While both are correct, it is for some (those who are defensive and their have been a few already) to realize that they can be a little more flexible and to know what is exactly really going on to know their recipes inside and out. It will help some. Others argue up and down that water has nothing to do with amount of lye and oil if total weight is to remain the same.
 Knowing this also prevents a few problems that I have already seen on here from people asking help.


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## SudsanSoaps (Nov 10, 2017)

Soapee.com if you set it to ''adjust oil weights to include water in oils total'' it will only adjust based on the 38%water plus oil. In other words it doesn't really work properly unless you set your lye concentration superfat and all that BEFORE you add your oils to the list. So I believe this is where iwanttosoap is coming from. But there is a work around.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 10, 2017)

"...While both are correct, it is for some (those who are defensive and their have been a few already) to realize that they can be a little more flexible and to know what is exactly really going on to know their recipes inside and out. It will help some. Others argue up and down that water has nothing to do with amount of lye and oil if total weight is to remain the same...."

I read that as an indirect jab at me, so I'll respond here with the same thing I said in the other thread where you made the same argument -- 

***

"...So, you see, by adjusting the water your actually increasing or decreasing the amount of soap in the bar and possibly the loaf. Water does not turn into soap but it has everything to do with the amount of oil and lye that you use...."

Um, thanks, but I went through all this some years ago and figured it out on my own. Perhaps others will benefit, however, so I'm glad you shared your point of view. That was a lot of work to write all that, and I appreciate the effort.

"...If I increase my water 4.69 grams I will now have a total of 16.16 oz of soap. I don't want that. I want 16 oz because that will waste soap...."

One point you're trying to make is that varying the amount of water in a recipe while holding the NaOH and fat constant will alter the total volume of the soap batter. Sure, no problem.

And you are also saying if you want to hold the volume of batter constant, but want to change the water content, then you have to alter the fat weight to maintain constant volume. I get that as well.

But here's the deal -- I honestly don't worry about small changes in batter volume that result from modest changes in the recipe. After making soap for awhile, I'm well aware that changing the water content or the kinds of fats or the superfat in my recipe will alter the total volume of the soap batter. But it's not going to change it enough to matter to me. Maybe to you, but not to me. I can't get enthused about agonizing over these details.

***

The calcs don't explain all the background that you want them to explain ... but they aren't "bad" [or deceiving] as you label them ... because it's not the mission of soap recipe calculators to educate. They are there to do a given set of mathematical calculations, plain and simple.

If you want to design your own calc that meets your own expectations and requirements, then by all means do it. I'm sure people will be interested to see what you can provide.


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## BrewerGeorge (Nov 10, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> ...
> I need to add one more thing. *The composition of my soap will be the exact same if I add water or didn't add water because my lye and oils adjust to the water.* However, it is other soaps that will not remain the same. That will be the difference and in addition, mine will remain the same weight .../QUOTE]
> 
> The problem with that is that you're removing the very reason we choose different water concentrations in soap.  They're not supposed to be the same.
> The _point_ is that they're different - different because we're making ghost swirls, different to encourage or discourage gelling, different because we want more or less working time.  If the soap is exactly the same, there is no reason to change water concentration at all.


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## MorpheusPA (Nov 10, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Others argue up and down that water has nothing to do with amount of lye and oil if total weight is to remain the same.
> Knowing this also prevents a few problems that I have already seen on here from people asking help.



I haven't seen that from anybody with even minor experience--lye+oil will always be the same if the super fat is not changing.  The amount of water won't influence the amount of lye one jot.  (I'm including all associated lye-influencing materials in your "oil" amount, including citric acid, milk, and so on).

Changing the water does change the total recipe, of course, and it does alter the initial characteristics of the soap (long-term characteristics are, from what I've ever noted, essentially unaltered regardless of water amount).

It mostly makes a difference in initial trace speed and tendency to gel.  As roundly noted, full water recipes gel pretty easily.  Discounted water recipes don't, but can be forced using towels or CPOP or suppressed by putting them in the fridge or freezer.

The jab at DeeAnna wasn't a good idea; most of us learn (and have learned) a great deal from her and she most definitely isn't wrong here.  The two of you aren't quite using the same vocabulary, but if you read over what I wrote, I said exactly the same thing DeeAnna did, just using different terminology and a different method of explaining it.

SoapCalc (and other calculators, including the one I whipped up for home use) aren't wrong.  They're merely placing the emphasis, by default, on different constraints that you do.

That's hardly an issue, and like me, you wrote your own calculator that works better with your particular style.  In fact, I may sit down and calculate and then program a batch constraint calculator.  It's rare that I do so--a little overflow just goes into a guest soap mold--but it might be helpful.


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## SaltedFig (Nov 10, 2017)

When you've finished, could you publish the math? :mrgreen:

I've been mucking about with mine for a while (it's a pick-up and put down job, because I keep on adding ideas to what I want out of it ... and then wonder just how huge it's supposed to be :think: )

My current thought ... I've decided I need to account for the space that dividers take up in slab molds. And so I went "seriously?!" at myself, and put it back down again (for a while, until I just have to finish that one ... tiny ... modification).



MorpheusPA said:


> That's hardly an issue, and like me, you wrote your own calculator that works better with your particular style.  In fact, I may sit down and calculate and then program a batch constraint calculator.  It's rare that I do so--a little overflow just goes into a guest soap mold--but it might be helpful.


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## MorpheusPA (Nov 10, 2017)

SaltedFig said:


> When you've finished, could you publish the math? :mrgreen:
> 
> I've been mucking about with mine for a while (it's a pick-up and put down job, because I keep on adding ideas to what I want out of it ... and then wonder just how huge it's supposed to be :think: )
> 
> My current thought ... I've decided I need to account for the space that dividers take up in slab molds. And so I went "seriously?!" at myself, and put it back down again (for a while, until I just have to finish that one ... tiny ... modification).



Sure thing!  I have to constrain _something_, and it's going to be a game of changing oil, lye, and water sizes until it approaches the proper weight.

I have a distinct feeling it's going to lead to a Newton-Raphson iteration to get the final answer.

Like you, this is totally on my "to do" list.  Now let's not discuss how long that list really is...


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## DeeAnna (Nov 10, 2017)

Maybe it's the engineer in me -- I eventually get impatient with debating how many algebraic angels can dance on the head of a mathematical pin. Yes, I admit I've got my own personal soaping spreadsheet that goes far beyond Soapcalc and Soapee. But I also know real life soaping has a goodly dose of the empirical and the subjective and thus cannot be entirely defined by math. And that's okay too.

But if a person wants the challenge of nailing as much down mathematically as possible, then what about building in the calculations to account for the volume of those swoopy peaked tops ... and to account for the changes in cross sectional area for the inevitable times when one's mold isn't always perfectly level?

:mrgreen: Mmmm, but, hey, before I think of more things to add, I just glimpsed another fresh rabbit hole around here to jump into. Gotta find it fast before my dogs do, so bye till later! :mrgreen:


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

*You dont quite understand and that is the point of this thread.*



surf girl said:


> From what I can understand, the OP seems to be concerned about fitting a given volume of raw soap into a mold, and excited about the fact that if you use more water in your lye solution (40% solution vs, say 50% solution), you are going to have more total volume for a given mass of oil.
> 
> That's kind of a given, yes?
> 
> ...



I am not excited about my total volume if I increase the water. That is the point of this. My point is that there is much confusion especially for new people are are just using the calculator.
My point is exactly the opposite of what your saying and water has everything to do with the amount of lye and oil that you use. That is what new people, when they are learning need to understand first!
Firstly, let me clarify something. Your soap never gets rid of all the water. EVER. I don't care if it is a year from now it will never get rid of all the water. The water it does retain NEVER turns into soap! Therefore, the more water that is added, a year from now it, may be hard, but it still will not last nearly as long as the same size bar (actually it will not be the same size because it will not lose as much weight. It will be bigger then the one made with more water) made with less water. 
Why? Because if you lessened the water, that will now allow you to add more lye water and more oil which WILL turn into soap and still fit your requirement of a 50 oz loaf.
Lye calculators will only decrease your total amount to less then 50 oz or increase your total amount more then 50 oz when adjust water:lye ratios. That is wasteful and costs money. To keep it at 50 oz total you must adjust your oil amount also - Your lye will then change and you will have a greater percentage of actual soap in your bar if less water is used.
Many people are blindly only seeing what bad programming spits out and only see one side that never changes. That side they think never changes because it will only increase your total amount or decrease your total amount instead of keeping your requirement of 50 oz and adjusting the lye and oils and so people think that it never changes but it actually does if you only want *50 oz(or any specific amount).*


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## scard (Nov 10, 2017)




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## toxikon (Nov 10, 2017)

Sounds like a lot of overthinking, and simply ADDING to any confusion a newbie might have.

If I were to give advice to a person new to soapmaking, I would simply say:

- Use the Soapee.com calculator.

- Use a "Lye Concentration" of around 25-30% to start (this means a 25% lye to 75% water solution). The lowest lye concentration you should use is 25% and the highest you can go is 50%. Higher than 40% is not advised in most situations.

- Do what you need to figure out the volume your mold can hold. Many manufacturers will list how much a mold can hold. Commonly, it could be something like 60oz.

- Go into Soapee, fill in your fields and tick the "Adjust oil weights to include water in Oils total" box, then set the Oil weight to your mold size (lets say 60oz).

Et voila... Soapee will generate the amount of oils, lye and water you need to use to fill your mold. Why overcomplicate?


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> iwannasoap said:
> 
> 
> > ...
> ...


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## MorpheusPA (Nov 10, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Firstly, let me clarify something. Your soap never gets rid of all the water. EVER. I don't care if it is a year from now it will never get rid of all the water. The water it does retain NEVER turns into soap! Therefore, the more water that is added, a year from now it, may be hard, but it still will not last nearly as long as the same size bar (actually it will not be the same size because it will not lose as much weight. It will be bigger then the one made with more water) made with less water.



DeeAnna has kindly done the high and low water soaps and compared weights out as they cure.  The weights fall together, eventually becoming indistinguishable from each other, after two months or so.  This is something I've also noticed with my high and low water soap; they come together.

While not all the water will evaporate--I tend to figure about four percent of oil weight in water will be bound into the soap crystal--the rest does evaporate over time.

Unfortunately, that established fact negates the rest of your argument.

Now if you wish to argue that the density of the low-water soap will eventually end up a bit higher due to the lower amount of water initially bound and the greater oil/lye ratio (which is more dense than water when it reacts) in a given volume...

...maybe.  Alterations in measurements are also well-known, particularly for high-water soap.  I'd need to sit down and spend two years or so doing the measurements to a very high degree of accuracy.  I _suspect _that, at the end of two years, the density difference will not be appreciable and bound water will be very close to identical.


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## Steve85569 (Nov 10, 2017)

I. just.wasted. 10 minutes. reading. this.

OP has mis-phrased and mis-calculated the chemistry involved in such a simple thing a making soap so as to make it so complicated only a lawyer or the OP can do it correctly.

Some people will remain unteachable no matter what. It is called contempt prior to investigation. There is no cure.

I really appreciate all of the help I got when I got here and that this forum was not full of threads like this one.:headbanging::headbanging::headbanging:


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

toxikon said:


> Sounds like a lot of overthinking, and simply ADDING to any confusion a newbie might have.
> 
> If I were to give advice to a person new to soapmaking, I would simply say:
> 
> ...



From my experience, when I used that much water, my soap froze up more often then it does now. I only use 1.1 to 1.4, and on occasion 50% water:lye, times the lye value. I would like as much soap as possible in the bar.
Secondly, if they started out like that, they will stay like that for more time  then necessary to finally realize that if they play with the water they are actually increasing or decreasing the actual amount of soap that is in the bar. Once you know that very basic concept then you can create designer soap and still produce a longer lasting bar.
Thirdly, soap made with more water that does not agree with the oil type will produce a bar with less life which gives the rest of us a bad name and it is harder to sell.
As an example, a year ago I was still struggling with this concept. I used the water ratio you spoke of. The bar came out a beautiful opaque blue (cant repeat the opaque) and everything was fine. I used an expensive patchouli to scent it which would have raised the bar to $5.75 in order to get my money back. People that use it love it and the smell. I combined it with Rosemary essential oil.
My point is this - I used one, I put one in the bathroom at work (recently) I have one left and I sold the rest. Those soaps, because of the water amount in them, only lasted 3-4 weeks and although they liked them that still gave you and me a bad name just because it did not last and I made them a year ago! So, the amount of water will always effect the soap because More water = Less lye and less oil and that produces soap with less life.


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## artemis (Nov 10, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> From my experience, when I used that much water, my soap froze up more often then it does now. I only use 1.1 to 1.4, and on occasion 50% water:lye, times the lye value. I would like as much soap as possible in the bar.
> .



I am glad you found something that works for you, and also that you have shared your work. This is now ready and waiting for any new person to find it and use the information from you and all of the people who have responded. Now that it has all been explained and saved for posterity, I suggest that we move on to other threads of interest to us all.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

Steve85569 said:


> I. just.wasted. 10 minutes. reading. this.
> 
> OP has mis-phrased and mis-calculated the chemistry involved in such a simple thing a making soap so as to make it so complicated only a lawyer or the OP can do it correctly.
> 
> ...



If your referring to my lye amounts given, your exactly right. I was calculating at 2% and I forgot to mention that, or change that value on my spreadsheet.
And, as referring to unteachable that could go either way there and I really don't understand where you think I am wrong. Enlighten me?
The point of all that in short was that a lye calc will only increase or decrease your total amount and not bother with keeping your original oil amount request (to fill your 50 oz mold) and adjust your oil and lye to fit your new  water value. It is because of that oversight that people do not realize by changing one value they change all values. 
Let me out it one more way. Because of this, those 5 oz bars will now only be 4 1/4 oz because it did not adjust with all of your values.
For instance, if I wanted a 60/40 lye ratio and hit the print button and now I change my mind and want a 55/45 ratio I hit the button again. From what I see nothing changes between the two and I don't learn anything. But if I break out a calculator, that total amount that I wanted has now decreased and I never realize that adjusting the water actually changes water and lye values to keep the same amount that I wanted originally. Is that where you don't understand? The importance to making long lasting soap is to understand that concept. This is the reason for this thread. I can see even you are stumped?



MorpheusPA said:


> I haven't seen that from anybody with even minor experience--lye+oil will always be the same if the super fat is not changing.  The amount of water won't influence the amount of lye one jot.  (I'm including all associated lye-influencing materials in your "oil" amount, including citric acid, milk, and so on).
> 
> Changing the water does change the total recipe, of course, and it does alter the initial characteristics of the soap (long-term characteristics are, from what I've ever noted, essentially unaltered regardless of water amount).
> 
> ...



If I remember right, this Deeanna person was rude to me first. I have already been told I was ignorant and didn't know anything too many times on this sight just because I am introducing something new that you might not have thought of before. Isn't that what threads are for?

Also, I couldn't exactly think of a one liner that would announce that soap calc's leave detail out. They are not wrong in the amount they tell you.
What they are wrong about is that you cannot learn that by adjusting water you are actually adjusting lye and oil (If your requirement is only X oz's).
That is an important concept to understand otherwise your just a steering wheel holder and not an actual driver. (not aimed at you personally).
Like I was trying to emphasize  at the beginning of my post. This is for people learning.
One more thing. Maybe you should create something. You might see for yourself how it all works together. Yours will show the same as mine and is not directed at any particular style. It is the way it works



MorpheusPA said:


> I think...maybe...that what you're saying is that you're constraining the batch size to 16 and allowing all the constituent amounts to change?
> 
> Whereas most of us constrain the oil weight and let everything else, change.  Including the total batch weight.
> 
> ...



I glad you understand but many do not. You should read all the comments I am getting. Even experienced soapers apparently. This thread was for those learning and to understand that concept. Until this is understood completely and fully then your just a steering wheel holder instead of a driver! Do you know what I mean?



MorpheusPA said:


> DeeAnna has kindly done the high and low water soaps and compared weights out as they cure.  The weights fall together, eventually becoming indistinguishable from each other, after two months or so.  This is something I've also noticed with my high and low water soap; they come together.
> 
> While not all the water will evaporate--I tend to figure about four percent of oil weight in water will be bound into the soap crystal--the rest does evaporate over time.
> 
> ...



It cannot be and it is impossible. 
Firstly, oil does not evaporate like you said. Maybe that was a typo. At least not like water.
Secondly, I believe you were also saying that it does retain some water (If I'm hearing you right) and I believe you and say the same thing.
But however, that water will never turn into soap it will be just wasted space in your bar. It may or may not weigh the same as one made with less water (not going there but I bet it will weigh less) simply because water and oil cannot occupy the same space. Oil is what turns into soap and soap weighs more then water so therefore a 5 oz soap made with more oils and lye will actually weigh more then a 5 oz bar made with water if weighed a year later. Just impossible that water weighs more then soap. Not going to happen. Water will never turn into soap but yet you say they are the same and they are not.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

MorpheusPA said:


> DeeAnna has kindly done the high and low water soaps and compared weights out as they cure.  The weights fall together, eventually becoming indistinguishable from each other, after two months or so.  This is something I've also noticed with my high and low water soap; they come together.
> 
> While not all the water will evaporate--I tend to figure about four percent of oil weight in water will be bound into the soap crystal--the rest does evaporate over time.
> 
> ...



Of course her measurements fell together. She might have done the same thing many people do. As the lye calculator is changed to a lower water:lye ratio her total quantity was reduced so now it is not exactly the same size as her comparison bar. What I mean is the actual soap (oils) were not increased when she reduced her water. So therefore they will fall at the same rate. I challenge her to do it again and increase her oil values at the same time she is decreasing her water.

One more thing, I believe it is the Deeanna person where I read another response of hers. It was very helpfull and she was very helpful also. I found out something new and I most definitly copied and pasted it to use later. I just expect the same from others to recognize what they really dont know and not be so arrogant about it. I thought soapers liked to learn! I do.

Oh yea, they probably will be identical (at least at losing at the same rate. But which will stop losing weight FIRST and which will actually have more soap to last longer. Thats the real question). The watered down soaps that I made in the past simply do not last as long as the ones that I make now only because I use less water and more oil which turns into soap. And that is the case for all soap! You might produce long lasting soap but are they really as long lasting as they could be simply by reducing water and raising oil and lye?
Like I repeatedly say... Most beginners do not know this and even experianced soapers haven't recognized this by the comments I am getting. But anyway, this was for beginners becasue this was my stumbling block also.


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## Obsidian (Nov 10, 2017)

I think people re understanding what you are getting at, just not the reason why it seems so important to you. You seem really hung up and keeping your batch at exactly 50 oz, in that case you will need to adjust your oils & lye if you adjust your water. 

My question as why is keeping the 50 oz so precise, so important? If you keep your oils & lye the same and increase/decrease your water by a oz or two either way, its not going to make a difference in the finished, cured soap.

I have to agree you are really overthinking it. Great if it works for you but its not the normal or easy way of doing it and thats ok. What isn't ok is you acting like we are a bunch of idiots who have been making soap wrong all this time

You need to be respectful of deeanne, not only is she the smartest person on this board but she is our own resident chemist. Getting snarky with her isn't a good way to make friends here.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 10, 2017)

I've just got back from a party so I'm feeling quite free, I'm just going to put out this out there - you say you struggle with getting return customers, but many of the people who are disagreeing with you get lots of return customers. Maybe your way isn't the best way to get where you're going?


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

I am sorry that you have misunderstood. That was not a jab at you and no where in that sentence did I direct it at you! In fact, you truly understand what I have been saying and I clearly see that. This thread was not meant for you and I believe I state that at the beginning. It was meant for people like me that had this as a stumbling block and I was blinded by what I couldn't see. Soap calcs decieve by not telling you what you just told me! Just go back and re-read the responses I am getting and you will clearly see who I wrote this thread for.
So, again, if you thought for a second I was aiming at you, then I am sorry that you misunderstood.

I seem to recall that you have the same amount of experience that I have. What is your secret.
And to answer your question, that is why I am here so why don't you tell me.

First - Never was I "Snarky" with her! Re read what I said. None of it was directed at her. I point blankly said who I was directing it too and it was not her. She just took it personally and became defensive because she thought I was "Snarky" towards her.
Hmm, You thinking that people understand might be an understatement. Go back and re read the responses carefully. This whole thing started because of what someone said and I have found she is not the only one.
Also, Try more to think about why a person says something. I am not "Stuck" on 50 oz. It was the only way to demonstrate how water effects amounts of oils and lye using a lye calculator.
Threads are created for others to learn, not to criticize or mock, if you do not feel that you learned anything and you know it all then this is not for you. This is for people, beginners, experianced soapers, to realize everything changes more then what the lye calculator tells you. It is to have more control over water and what that does exactly to your recipe. Beginners do not know this and it is an important handle to grab to grasp the whole concept of controlling everything in your recipe.

Sorry, couldn't think of a one liner.
They only show total amounts raising and lowering. They do not show lye values changing with it and so beginners do not realize this and therefore are actually missing out on the complexity until it is too late. It would have sped up my understanding if I knew this sooner then I did.


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## MorpheusPA (Nov 10, 2017)

> It cannot be and it is impossible.
> Firstly, oil does not evaporate like you said. Maybe that was a typo. At least not like water.
> Secondly, I believe you were also saying that it does retain some water (If I'm hearing you right) and I believe you and say the same thing.
> But however, that water will never turn into soap it will be just wasted space in your bar. It may or may not weigh the same as one made with less water (not going there but I bet it will weigh less) simply because water and oil cannot occupy the same space. Oil is what turns into soap and soap weighs more then water so therefore a 5 oz soap made with more oils and lye will actually weigh more then a 5 oz bar made with water if weighed a year later. Just impossible that water weighs more then soap. Not going to happen. Water will never turn into soap but yet you say they are the same and they are not.




Enough.  I'm so glad that you've found what you think works for you!  And a great day to you and good luck in the future.  Bye, now.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

Millie said:


> Basically, we each have our own preferred lye concentration. Iwannasoap likes 50%, I like 33-35%, you all might like something different. Iwannasoap has his own way of working out how to fit a batch in a mold, and doesn't like the idea of excess water.
> 
> The real difference I see is his soaps won't gel. A high water soaper might choose to prevent gel with the help of a freezer. I like gel, and force it when I have to.
> 
> I feel the need to end on a cheesy note: we are all in the same boat, it'll just take some of us a little longer to dry out our shoes



Can you tell me where you get the info of low water will not gel? I would like to read it please. When I add more lye and more oil my loaf will be hotter. Up to 200 degrees. Why would that not gel? So, I really would like to read this and see where I am wrong. Please, don't misread. I'm being serious and not "Snarky" as I am accused by other people.


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## psfred (Nov 10, 2017)

iwannasoap, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of soap calculators.  They exist as a convenient way to calculate lye amounts per oil amount to make a soap of a specified superfat, nothing more.  It is not "deceptive" for the initial weight of the batter to vary with changes in water content, it's just the calculation done to produce the correct specified soap.  If you change the inputs, the "output" will vary, and as far as I can tell (I'm a professional chemist) all the commonly referenced calculators are quite accurate.

Water evaporates, fatty acid salts and fats/oils do not, so the finished weight of the soap will be the same for any given weight of oil and lye.  If you add more water, you get more weight and volume during processing, but the final cured soap weight will be only the weight of the oils used, the glycerine produced by saponification, and the sodium or potassium added as lye plus the water at equilibrium with the environment.  All soap recipes contain much more water than ends up in the cured soap, and they all lose weight -- if you add more water when making it, more evaporates during cure.  Final water content will be pretty much the same for any reasonable range of initial water amount used to make the soap.

Reducing the oil and lye weight to get some exact initial batch weight (or volume) will result in less soap when it's cured.  

More water doesn't produce more soap, it produces the same amount of soap with more water in it, and that water will evaporate during cure.

"Gel" is the condition where a colloidal suspension of soap fatty acids forms in water, much like gelatin forms a colloidal suspension in water to make "Jello".  If there is not enough water present for the soap crystals to become suspended in colloidal form, you won't get "gel phase" no matter what the temperature is.  The more water present, the lower the temperature at which gel phase occurs, which is why high water recipes gel more easily.  Therefore, if you want to avoid partial gel, low water helps.

As far as longevity in use, that depends on state of cure, fatty acid profile, and how dry the soap gets between uses.  "New" soap has a lot of excess water and will be softer than fully cured soap, and therefore will be easier to rub into lather.  Lots of easily lathered fatty acids (lauric and myristic) will "dissolve" faster too, so lots of coconut oil or palm kernel oil will make soap that is shorter lived in use.  And finally, a soap dish that holds water will soften home made soap much faster than commercial triple milled soap, and softer soap doesn't last as long as harder soap.


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## BattleGnome (Nov 10, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Those soaps, because of the water amount in them, only lasted 3-4 weeks and although they liked them that still gave you and me a bad name just because it did not last and I made them a year ago! So, the amount of water will always effect the soap because More water = Less lye and less oil and that produces soap with less life.



I’ve been reading along without much to say (too many numbers, not a science person) and this right here is throwing a ton of clarification at me on why this discussion matters to you. 

Two questions:
What bar size do you usually make?
How long do you expect your soaps to last?

3–4 weeks is my goal with a 3.5/4oz bar size and a damp shower (we’ve got circulation issues in the bathroom). I understand that you e been concerned with water content vs space in the mold for actual soap. My understanding was the fatty acid profile of the oils makes a bigger difference in longevity of soap after a proper cure. 

If the discussion was entirely to point out changing ratios in a finite space then I understand the discussion and will reread with an eye towards vocabulary differences based on the writer but I feel that I’m missing a huge chunk of something that makes it more than that.


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## Millie (Nov 10, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Can you tell me where you get the info of low water will not gel? I would like to read it please. When I add more lye and more oil my loaf will be hotter. Up to 200 degrees. Why would that not gel? So, I really would like to read this and see where I am wrong. Please, don't misread. I'm being serious and not "Snarky" as I am accused by other people.


I understand that you are being sincere, and this has been a long and difficult thread with many misunderstandings. Psfred explained it much better than I ever could. I learned a lot about the effect of water content in soap on Auntie Clara's blog. I'm not sure if you will like that particular entry because she, like many of us, keeps her oil weight constant in her experiments. She has many beautifully written entries though which I think you would like. Her blog is an artful blend of soapy adventure, history, and science. I hope you enjoy:

https://auntieclaras.com/blog/

For me, this thread is closed. All that can be said has been said. The only thing left is understanding, and that cannot be forced.


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## surf girl (Nov 11, 2017)

What psfred said. Exactly that.

And also: 



Steve85569 said:


> I. just.wasted. 10 minutes. reading. this.
> 
> OP has mis-phrased and mis-calculated the chemistry involved in such a simple thing a making soap so as to make it so complicated only a lawyer or the OP can do it correctly.
> 
> ...




LOL, I feel like I was utterly too polite in my response. Bang on.

Save​


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> I seem to recall that you have the same amount of experience that I have. What is your secret.
> And to answer your question, that is why I am here so why don't you tell me.


Not sure if that was for me. If you're responding directly, quoting the post or at least putting the user name is in a good way of making sure that someone else doesn't think it's aimed at them when it isn't, especially with lots of posts in a thread. 

But, my secret? Balanced recipes of water-filled mushy bars, apparently. My oil weight is fixed and my solution strength is usually the same. As the lye needed for different recipes varies, my total water in relation to my oils will of course be different. I don't mind that, as there is some room for play in my mould. People I give the soap to (I don't sell) consistently ask me when I'm making more. In your case, if repeat customers aren't coming, I would say that bars made trying to optimise the actual soap content of the bar from the start don't seem to have that. 

What can you do? Well I don't know if it's your recipe in general, or if these Max-Soap-No-Water bars are good to use. Or maybe it's the customer care aspect. 

I can't tell you, because you're too busy fighting a corner for something odd and quite specific to how you soap. 

Bringing me back to the point of your thread. YOU had an issue with it. YOU had an issue with some other terminology as well. That does not make it s complete block to new soapers as a rule, just because of how you (mis) understand the terms used. But you're getting a lot of push back here because we were all new soapers once, and now we all make good (or even great) soap (but with repeat customers) and those new members who have issues with water are encouraged on to the more useful solution strength or ratio options and they seem to also make consistently lovely soaps using it. 

So I don't think, and I get the feeling that many people don't think, that this information is a)useful, b) needed, and c)helpful in how it is presented generally (examples, topic title and how the original post didn't make the goal clear)


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## BrewerGeorge (Nov 11, 2017)

I will try one more time.

Firstly, you misunderstand what the calculators are doing, and I encourage you to do a couple of sets of calculations by hand. Make the changes you want to make, and recalculate. By hand. You'll figure out why the constants are kept. 

Secondly, again you are really misunderstanding changing water. You say 'reducing water' as if someone would want to whimsically lower the water amount from 175g to 150g.  That is not something anyone would do. What we would do is change the ratio _ specifically _ to get a change in how the soap performs. Changing that ratio has the effect of lowering the water. Now here comes your big misunderstanding: this is where you've recognized the "problem" and want to change the oil amount. That automatically changes the lye amount *and you're back at the original lye concentration you started with!* Jiggering around with the amounts as you want to obviates the very reason anybody would change water in the first place. The whole argument isn't wrong, it's just useless.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> I will try one more time.
> 
> Firstly, you misunderstand what the calculators are doing, and I encourage you to do a couple of sets of calculations by hand. Make the changes you want to make, and recalculate. By hand. You'll figure out why the constants are kept.
> 
> Secondly, again you are really misunderstanding changing water. You say 'reducing water' as if someone would want to whimsically lower the water amount from 175g to 150g.  That is not something anyone would do. What we would do is change the ratio _ specifically _ to get a change in how the soap performs. Changing that ratio has the effect of lowering the water. Now here comes your big misunderstanding: this is where you've recognized the "problem" and want to change the oil amount. That automatically changes the lye amount *and you're back at the original lye concentration you started with!* Jiggering around with the amounts as you want to obviates the very reason anybody would change water in the first place. The whole argument isn't wrong, it's just useless.



First off, your comment is the exact reason this thread was started and it is for newcomers to come and read what you said.
Secondly, It was also so you can learn because what you just said is actually backwards from what is really happening. It only took me a sec to calculate what you said because of my advantage which is what all soapers should do actually.
You stated that I would be back at the original lye concentration if I change my oil:  That is where you have it backwards. 
Lye concentration is calculated @ lye/100. The rest is water.
As your water increases or decreases, the ONLY thing you effect is your total amount (besides the texture and consistency that you want). It will effect your water:lye ratio. The only way to counterbalance your total amount from changing is by adjusting your oil and therefore your lye. It does not effect water:lye ratio. Raising or lowering your oil amount does not effect any ratios except for counterbalancing the effect of your total amount that was effected by you adding more or less water.
Take time out to put everything you know on a recipe spreadsheet and not a store bought one pre-made. You will now know answers like that in about 1 second vs. years.
Oh yeah, and speaking of the constants. The constant values you speak of are the oils and lye amount that are needed. Those remain the same on a soap calc. But if you notice, your total amount will change and you are no longer pouring the original value that you wanted. That is _*because*_ of the
counterbalancing issue that I speak of. My spreadsheet does the same. But I have the advantage of changing the oil amounts and seeing very quickly that it changes no values EXCEPT to counterbalance what adjusting the water did to effect your total amount. So in conclusion, you are not back where you started. You are at a new beginning and are actually able to adjust the amount of oil in your loafs without interfering with anything else and that is including your texture!


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## SoapTrey (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> First off, your comment is the exact reason this thread was started and it is for newcomers to come and read what you said.
> Secondly, It was also so you can learn because what you just said is actually backwards from what is really happening. It only took me a sec to calculate what you said because of my advantage which is what all soapers should do actually.
> You stated that I would be back at the original lye concentration if I change my oil:  That is where you have it backwards.
> Lye concentration is calculated @ lye/100. The rest is water.
> ...



LOL

:headbanging:

:headbanging:

:headbanging:

:headbanging:


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

I appreciate the link. I will definitely read it. But I can tell you now that the only thing that adjusting your oil does is counterbalancing the effect of adding or reducing water does to your _*total amount*_. It does not change your water:lye ratio and therefore it does not change the consistency that you want to achieve. That is where the deceiving part comes into play by the lye calculators. It does nothing to effect anything except to maintain the total amount that you want in your soap loaf. As a result, without adjusting your oils, when you are adding water you are taking away the soap chain and reducing or increasing your total amount if you do not adjust your oils. 
I'd like to repeat one more time to clarify. Water:lye ratio effects texture of soap and I agree but it will also affect your total amount by increasing or decreasing. You will clearly see that on a soap calc by adding the values yourself when you change the water:Lye ratio. Adding more oil and lye counterbalances only the total weight of the soap (of course you have to add more lye and I know this sounds strange). It will not effect your water:lye ratio so therefore you will get the same result that you wanted in the first place but the advantage is that you keep the original weight that you wanted while at the same time having the same consistency. Put everything you know on a spreadsheet and you will see for yourself. I made mine show EVERYTHING. Lye values, ratios, total amount, SAP values, Recipe's, Prices that change when I adjust etc. It shows me in a second what takes experienced soap makers years. That is the point of this thread so I hope you take me seriously. While I do have the disadvantage of interior decorating I can definitely move the furniture so to speak.
If you truly want to check this out more this might give you a head start - Water/(water + Lye) equals your ratio. The only thing that effects this ratio is adding and reducing water. NOT counterbalancing with oil + Lye. This counterbalance only puts back the total amount that you wanted in the first place with the same consistency! You might not understand now but if you took time out to make a spreadsheet you will see for yourself at a glance what I am saying. I have learned an incredible amount by this myself.


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## BrewerGeorge (Nov 11, 2017)

I think you're so wrapped up in defending this now that you're no longer listening. You spent the entire last post where you quoted me ignoring my point.

So if it works for you, enjoy.

But I will come out and say to any other new folks who might be reading this thread: Ignore it. Listen to DeeAnna and the others of us who know how to make soap.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

Wasn't it your point that you think that it will change your water:lye ratio by adding more oil?
In fact, if it was, I thank you for that post because that is where many are getting defensive, rude, and may even think that they know it all because that could be where the confusion is coming in. What I mean is, they probably suspected this will affect their ratios but just didn't know how to word it. After all, even you said "_That automatically changes the lye amount *and you're back at the original lye concentration you started with!*_". Which is totally not true because you do use a soap calculator (which will not tell you unless you follow the proper tests with it) and you are not seeing the entire picture. Isn't this forum for learning new things? I can most definitely provide proof that it will not effect the consistency of your soap nor will it effect your water:lye ratio. Don't you want to produce more soap with the same water:lye ratio that you like? Maybe it is you that need to learn. You should humble yourself and do the work because I can tell you have just depended on lye calculators too much. And mostly, doing this I have learned too. Not from other soapers but I have learned even more from comments like yours because I actually checked it out like you said and found out that adjusting your oils will not affect your water:lye ratio to change the consistency of your soap. It only restores your total quantity back to what you wanted in the first place!



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Not sure if that was for me. If you're responding directly, quoting the post or at least putting the user name is in a good way of making sure that someone else doesn't think it's aimed at them when it isn't, especially with lots of posts in a thread.
> 
> But, my secret? Balanced recipes of water-filled mushy bars, apparently. My oil weight is fixed and my solution strength is usually the same. As the lye needed for different recipes varies, my total water in relation to my oils will of course be different. I don't mind that, as there is some room for play in my mould. People I give the soap to (I don't sell) consistently ask me when I'm making more. In your case, if repeat customers aren't coming, I would say that bars made trying to optimise the actual soap content of the bar from the start don't seem to have that.
> 
> ...


 
Do you remember in 2015 when you didn't know what "SF" meant and how other members were "Snarky" at you? That is how I feel introducing what some may not realize.
But through the comment of another member I have realized where the confusion is coming from. I understand a certain water:lye ratio to produce a certain consistency that you like is good. I am not calling your bars mush and I understand why you say that but the confusion is coming from the thinking that raising or decreasing your oil will affect you water:lye ratio.
It will give you the same ratio that you want but it will increase the total quantity of soap in your mold instead of decreasing it. If you notice on a lye calc, as you change your water:lye ratio's the total volume will increase or decrease from original amount. The only thing adding more oil does is counterbalance your total quantity. It does nothing to affect your water:lye ratio. In other words, you will produce the same mushy bars but just more of it; lol.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 11, 2017)

Stalker, much?

And yet I've come from that total starting point to where I am now without your startling, game changing piece of information, which is why (yet again) you are getting push back. You're framing it as this piece of information which is of the utmost importance, which it isn't really, for a great deal of people in the majority of situations


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

SaltedFig said:


> When you've finished, could you publish the math? :mrgreen:
> 
> I've been mucking about with mine for a while (it's a pick-up and put down job, because I keep on adding ideas to what I want out of it ... and then wonder just how huge it's supposed to be :think: )
> 
> My current thought ... I've decided I need to account for the space that dividers take up in slab molds. And so I went "seriously?!" at myself, and put it back down again (for a while, until I just have to finish that one ... tiny ... modification).



Publish the math to what? How much oil you need in a batch to enter into a soap calc.
If that is what you are talking about then try this.
Put your dividers up against the walls of your mold.
Then measure width, height and depth.
The amount of oil that you will need is W X H X D X .40
.42 is what I use but it will be close enough for you.


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## Obsidian (Nov 11, 2017)

Again, I say it seems like you are hung up on counterbalancing the total batch size if you want to adjust your water amount but it's not that important.

I couldn't even tell you what the total size is of my batches. I know I need 16 oz of oil for my small molds and cavity molds, 24 oz for my silicone loaf and 3 pound for my big mold.

There is enough room in said molds to increase or decrease water without have to balance anything. I get the same amount and same sized bars every time.


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## Kittish (Nov 11, 2017)

Meh, what the heck. I'm gonna jump in here, though I may regret it.

I think you're trying to make a mountain out of a few grains of dust. For the life of me I can't figure out why you're so hung up on changing the water amount in a recipe. 

You want to keep a constant final total and you're surprised that changing one parameter affects the others? Um, I could have told you that was going to happen without all the chest beating and melodramatics. I can also tell you that it doesn't really matter. 

As a brand new soaper, I was not the least bit confused or mislead by the results I got when calculating a recipe in SoapCalc. Not even when I had to fiddle to work out how much oils, water, and lye I needed to make enough soap batter to fill my molds. I was also unsurprised when changing the amount of oils in my recipe caused the amounts of lye and (gasp!) water to change. 

One thing I will agree with is that the 'water as a percent of oils' option needs to go away. THAT one is confusing to new soapers, and doesn't seem to serve any actual useful purpose. 

(And regarding your argument about 'how much soap is in a bar', lemme blow your mind. 90% of everything, is nothing. Quite literally empty space. The negligible amount of water left in a bar of cured soap can't even begin to compete. Just think how much more soap you could get into a bar if you could just eliminate all that pesky empty space inside the atoms!)


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

*98.6% agreeable*



psfred said:


> iwannasoap, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of soap calculators.  They exist as a convenient way to calculate lye amounts per oil amount to make a soap of a specified superfat, nothing more.  It is not "deceptive" for the initial weight of the batter to vary with changes in water content, it's just the calculation done to produce the correct specified soap.  If you change the inputs, the "output" will vary, and as far as I can tell (I'm a professional chemist) all the commonly referenced calculators are quite accurate.
> 
> Water evaporates, fatty acid salts and fats/oils do not, so the finished weight of the soap will be the same for any given weight of oil and lye.  If you add more water, you get more weight and volume during processing, but the final cured soap weight will be only the weight of the oils used, the glycerine produced by saponification, and the sodium or potassium added as lye plus the water at equilibrium with the environment.  All soap recipes contain much more water than ends up in the cured soap, and they all lose weight -- if you add more water when making it, more evaporates during cure.  Final water content will be pretty much the same for any reasonable range of initial water amount used to make the soap.
> 
> ...



I really appreciate your input and your time first off! While I am not a chemist and I cannot repeat what you said as eloquently I am aware of these things but what I can offer is from a programmers perspective and how the soapers calc only allows for differences by reducing or adding to the total quanity. Therefore a soaper does not learn the other aspects of calculating like knowing how to increase oils while still maintaining the water ratio you wanted. I have seen it in people's responses and they are using spell checker too much. Follow me here please because I would like you to explain a sort of contradictive statement that you made afterwards.

Starting from the beginning;
I know what a soap calc is because I can create the same thing. But my argument is that a soap calc is like a spell checker. The more you use it the more you forget to spell (which is my problem right now with spelling lately!) 
1. By increasing or decreasing your water it will decrease or increase you total amount. That is IT! That is all that you will learn because that is all that you see. So, like a spell checker, you forget things like "I thought I wanted 50 oz of soap? Why is it 46 oz. now?"
2. To retain that same original quantity, just like you might want to retain the same quantity at your work in a flask, you have to change the oil amount. Which of course changes your lye to get back up to 50 oz.
3. As a consequence of calcs not doing that, people think that increasing your oil will affect your water:lye ratio that you wanted to use to get a certain consistency out of their soap. Wrong! Not true. Adjusting your oils if you played with the water:lye ratio only counter balances and puts you back up to the original weight that you wanted.
Let me clarify - When you select multiple tabs and then calculate different percentages, it only adjusts your total weight when in actuality it should loop the entire process all over again to give you what you entered in the first place. Which is calculate lye, water, and oils. But it doesn't. So, the end result is that a user does not realize that their water:lye ratio does not change. They think it does but it does not. They will have the same consistency but more soap if they just go back and add more oil to compensate for the loss in the total amount!
4. I perfectly understood final water content and I agree with you but water, as you know, never turns into soap so if a soaper understood exactly how to add more oil and keep the same water:lye ratio back into the recipe to adjust for its shortcomings then that same bar you speak of will have more soap not water and will last longer. As for the coconut and palm you speak of, thanks, I will definitely experiment with that!
5. More water doesn't produce more soap is also what I have been saying but I keep getting shot down.
6. Reducing the lye amount goes hand in hand with .5. I don't do that either. I want the most soap for my bar.
7. Now for the confusing part that sounds contradicting. I really would like a further explanation.
You said "The more water present, the lower the temperature at which gel phase  occurs, which is why high water recipes gel more easily.  Therefore, if  you want to avoid partial gel, low water helps."
The last sentence makes sense and that is what I do. I have even been shot down already for saying the same thing and that I am ignorant. 
But how it is contradictory with the first statement is that the first statement gels easier at higher water(I would say it is not easier because it is likely to fail precisely due to the second statement and it will not get as hot so as a result it will cool faster. That is why you get partial gel ) but the second statement says basically lower water has more of a success rate at gelling. I agree totally with that because lower water allows for more lye and oil in the same space .

My whole point is that using the soap calc people are forgetting the basics and are making assumptions that simply are not correct so as a result they are NOT adding more oil to compensate because they think it will mess with their Lye:water ratio which has a lot to do with the consistency that they want.
Additionally, there is no guarantee by the way that what they are superfatting with is actually what is left over. Oils saponify at different rates so when a SF of 5% of Shea is added to Olive oil soap. Forget it. You just wasted your money!


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## SaltedFig (Nov 11, 2017)

Quote:


iwannasoap said:


> Publish the math to what? How much oil you need in a batch to enter into a soap calc.
> If that is what you are talking about then try this.
> Put your dividers up against the walls of your mold.
> Then measure width, height and depth.
> ...



This value is incorrect for the International System of Units.
How Australia's Measurement System Works: http://www.measurement.gov.au/measurementsystem/Pages/HowAustraliasMeasurementSystemWorks.aspx

I have already received a reply from the person I originally quoted, but thank-you anyway.


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## Obsidian (Nov 11, 2017)

> My whole point is that using the soap calc people are forgetting the basics and are making assumptions that simply are not correct so as a result they are NOT adding more oil to compensate



No, they are not adding more oil to compensate for lower water because they aren't concerned with a tiny variance like that. 

That is something you are overlooking, no one else is as concerned about total batch size being exactly the same every single time or trying to get the most soap as possible in each bar (is that even a thing beyond the molecular level?)

Oh, we already know you can't choose which oil remains as SF in CP. That's why you HP if you want a specific oil as SF


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

It is the exact same for hot process. Hot process changes nothing!



Obsidian said:


> Again, I say it seems like you are hung up on counterbalancing the total batch size if you want to adjust your water amount but it's not that important.
> 
> I couldn't even tell you what the total size is of my batches. I know I need 16 oz of oil for my small molds and cavity molds, 24 oz for my silicone loaf and 3 pound for my big mold.
> 
> There is enough room in said molds to increase or decrease water without have to balance anything. I get the same amount and same sized bars every time.


 
You will get the same size for now. But water does not turn into soap so a year from now how much will it weigh versus a bar with more soap in it. Soap weighs more then water.
What if you wanted to increase the oils to keep that from happening while at the same time keeping your water:lye ratio that you like? What do you do then?


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## Obsidian (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> It is the exact same for hot process. Hot process changes nothing!



You add the SF oil after the cook, no lye left means the oil will remain.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

Kittish said:


> Meh, what the heck. I'm gonna jump in here, though I may regret it.
> 
> I think you're trying to make a mountain out of a few grains of dust. For the life of me I can't figure out why you're so hung up on changing the water amount in a recipe.
> 
> ...


A year or so down the road your going to wonder why the bar you made now is just not lasting as long. Then come back and say the same thing.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 11, 2017)

Last try:

Many people, myself included, make batches based on oil weight.  All things considered, the amount of water and lye doesn't vary massively - even switching between a 100% OO or a 100% CO soap, a 1000g batch has a total batch size variance of 152 g at 30% solution strength, only 100g of which is water.  It really doesn't matter to most of us. 

In fact, if you want to be making a set amount of actual soap, by lowering your oil amount to allow for more water you are in fact making less soap in total.




iwannasoap said:


> ..............The last sentence makes sense and that is what I do. I have even been shot down already for saying the same thing and that I am ignorant.
> But how it is contradictory with the first statement is that the first statement gels easier at higher water(I would say it is not easier because it is likely to fail precisely due to the second statement and it will not get as hot so as a result it will cool faster. That is why you get partial gel ) but the second statement says basically lower water has more of a success rate at gelling...............



You are assuming, in ignorance (but people often take that word as a bad thing, it isn't always, depends on how you are talking whilst in it) that a higher temperature = higher change of gelling.  That is false.  Because of the phase changes, a soap with more water can more easily change phase even at lower temperatures.  The higher temperatures that come from using less water aren't enough to get the soap to change phase when the soap doesn't have that water which itself is needed to change phase.

That's another aspect which doesn't help.  Someone states the truth and your response is not worded in a way which indicates you are looking to learn.  "You're contradicting yourself now.", "That makes no sense" are totally different than saying "I don't quite follow what you're saying - how can less water mean a hotter soap but then a less change of gelling?".  You imply that it can't be right because it doesn't make sense to you, instead of asking the other person to explain in more detail to help you to understand.  That is not a good way to come over in any walk of life, especially not on a forum.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> No, they are not adding more oil to compensate for lower water because they aren't concerned with a tiny variance like that.
> 
> That is something you are overlooking, no one else is as concerned about total batch size being exactly the same every single time or trying to get the most soap as possible in each bar (is that even a thing beyond the molecular level?)
> 
> Oh, we already know you can't choose which oil remains as SF in CP. That's why you HP if you want a specific oil as SF


It is not total batch size I'm harping on. That is just to show you soap calc's are not calculating all of it the second time you hit the print button so you don't exactly realize WHY all of a sudden has your batch size diminished. I know that you don't care but your customers might, the people you give them to might. In fact for all you know they just might like that bigger bar you give them.
You tell me, how would you increase your oil while still keeping your same water lye:ratio that you like? If you don't know that then your bars might not performing as well as they should.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Last try:
> 
> Many people, myself included, make batches based on oil weight. All things considered, the amount of water and lye doesn't vary massively - even switching between a 100% OO or a 100% CO soap, a 1000g batch has a total batch size variance of 152 g at 30% solution strength, only 100g of which is water. It really doesn't matter to most of us.
> 
> ...


I did ask him to explain! Because his first sentence said that higher water was more likely to partially gel. His second sentence said to prevent this use lower water. Different words here but same thing. That is a contraction.
You must be walking and too busy attacking with your cell phone rather then reading and knowing I did ask him to explain.
Like I said, 2 years ago you were attacked to.
The whole point of this thread is to use the lye:water ratio that you like and still be able to increase your oil. People who are hooked on calculatores don't know that apparently. Believe me, I'm listening and learning but I am also learning what many so called experts here don't know. For instance, I have already been told there is no chance sugar will not make milk go rancid. This person kindly informed me she was an expert and her soap doesn't need to breathe. Really!
Like I said before, You are kind about it at least but you are on the same side of the fence now as they were to you!
Incidentally, that was not a discouragement. I like to read what you have to say.

By the way, where in the world did you read that I said lowering your oil in the soap is a good thing? Your the second one who has said that and I said no such thing. The closest to that is when I said "increasing or decreasing". What I am referring to is this. When you decrease water you can increase oil. When you increase water you can decrease oil instead of having an overage. Neither of these cases affect your water:lye ratio. If you know what you are doing your lye will adjust to accommodate for the same amount of soap. I did not write that but I cannot write about every little specific thing a person does.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 11, 2017)

I was referring to when DeeAnna and others first mentioned water and gelling. Your response did not invite polite elaboration on the topic!

Again with the sugar, you said that it DOES cause rancidity, with no qualifiers such as in certain amounts and/or conditions. That was what was the issue. It generally comes down to how you formulate things. Also with the breathing topic, people often cover the mould with cling film before the bars are cut. After the cut, they have air to flow around, of course, but that short time in the mould rarely has unwanted side effects. 

You come over in a very arrogant way, even when you are wrong about something, which puts people off a great deal. It makes them less likely to read you posts in general


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> You add the SF oil after the cook, no lye left means the oil will remain.


Does that mean that after you cook it I can come over there and squeeze it really hard and it not crumble or squish in my hands?


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## Obsidian (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> It is not total batch size I'm harping on. That is just to show you soap calc's are not calculating all of it the second time you hit the print button so you don't exactly realize WHY all of a sudden has your batch size diminished.



Seriously? you think people are stupid enough not to realize that if they add or subtract water that the total batch won't change? 



iwannasoap said:


> You tell me, how would you increase your oil while still keeping your same water lye:ratio that you like? If you don't know that then your bars might not performing as well as they should.



I would use a soap cal as they were designed. I would input my recipe with the total amount of oils I want, change the default water amount to ratios and use my standard 2:1 water/lye

If I want it to be even simpler, I'll open up soapmaker 3 and hit resize on my recipe and adjust the oil amount. Again my ratio is 2:1 and that won't change.

I may have missed it but what exactly do you think will be the difference between bars of the exact same recipe but with slightly different water amounts? Not the obvious and early differences either but the aged for at least 8 weeks and most of the excess water should be gone by now differance?


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I was referring to when DeeAnna and others first mentioned water and gelling. Your response did not invite polite elaboration on the topic!
> 
> Again with the sugar, you said that it DOES cause rancidity, with no qualifiers such as in certain amounts and/or conditions. That was what was the issue. It generally comes down to how you formulate things. Also with the breathing topic, people often cover the mould with cling film before the bars are cut. After the cut, they have air to flow around, of course, but that short time in the mould rarely has unwanted side effects.
> 
> You come over in a very arrogant way, even when you are wrong about something, which puts people off a great deal. It makes them less likely to read you posts in general


Wow, your fast. The only thing I was implying was that if used, by chance, incorrectly the sugar will get to hot and spoil the milk. Playing it safe by not allowing gel was just a suggestion and there is nothing wrong with that. It will ensure that the milk does not start smelling. Besides, I was just giving my opinion from the original question. Do you think her response was appropriate?


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## Obsidian (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Does that mean that after you cook it I can come over there and squeeze it really hard and it not crumble or squish in my hands?



Once it cures, yes. Of course fresh HP will squish as will most any fresh soap.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> Seriously? you think people are stupid enough not to realize that if they add or subtract water that the total batch won't change?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The difference will be more soap in the bar that does not evaporate. Knowing how to barely adjust for the right texture and still get the most soap, to me, is important. I would like to create the most soap possible for the people I give to or sell.
Additionally, soap made with less water will lose the water it's supposed to much quicker then one made with more water.
I used to make it with more water. Still have some from a year ago. I used it. Didn't last but 3-4 weeks. That gives me and you a bad name which in turn makes it harder for you. Thanks for asking.


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## BrewerGeorge (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> ...
> You tell me, how would you increase your oil while still keeping your same water lye:ratio that you like? If you don't know that then your bars might not performing as well as they should.


OMG! Is this whole thing because the Print browser window doesn't refresh when you recalculate?


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> Once it cures, yes. Of course fresh HP will squish as will most any fresh soap.


Then it is not done saponifying and there is no guarantee that what you superfatted with is actually the SF. For instance, , ehh never mind you probably already know why I say that. I don't need to repeat it.



BrewerGeorge said:


> OMG! Is this whole thing because the Print browser window doesn't refresh when you recalculate?


That's funny but actually it can be fixed without the refresh. I know what your talking about.
But no, what I am talking about is that you like to have a certain water:lye ratio to get the texture that you want.
That's great. Nothing wrong with that.
How do increase your oils while keeping the same water:lye ratio without an overage?
What if one day you wanted to increase your oils without changing your water lye:ratio? How would a newcomer know he can do that? How would a newcomer realize increasing oils mean more soap in the same size bar? Along the way of trying to say that I have read misconceptions. I'm just replying back but at the same time I am learning and reinforcing what I already know.


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## Obsidian (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Then it is not done saponifying and there is no guarantee that what you superfatted with is actually the SF. For instance, , ehh never mind you probably already know why I say that. I don't need to repeat it.



Yes it's done saponifying. Its still soft because I use extra water in my HP to keep it a bit more fluid so it goes in the mold easier.
The whole point of HP is to complete the saponification process in a short amount of time. Doing a simple zap test will show there is no lye left.

Do you HP much? What water amount do you use? I've never seen really hard fresh HP unless it was a salt bar.

I know you probably won't share your recipe but I'm curious about it. 3-4 weeks out of one bar seems perfectly normal to me but there is more than one person washing with said bar here.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> Seriously? you think people are stupid enough not to realize that if they add or subtract water that the total batch won't change?
> 
> I would use a soap cal as they were designed. I would input my recipe with the total amount of oils I want, change the default water amount to ratios and use my standard 2:1 water/lye
> 
> ...


This whole thing started because I stated changing your water values effects oil and lye values which it does if you want to keep the same total amount of oil.
Many people disagreed. So, the answer to your question is yes but they are not ignorant. They just are too used to using spell checkers and are not used to actually knowing what is going on. Not Every one mind you but some.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 11, 2017)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-06-2014/P3ptm5.gif


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> Yes it's done saponifying. Its still soft because I use extra water in my HP to keep it a bit more fluid so it goes in the mold easier.
> The whole point of HP is to complete the saponification process in a short amount of time. Doing a simple zap test will show there is no lye left.
> 
> Do you HP much? What water amount do you use? I've never seen really hard fresh HP unless it was a salt bar.
> ...


My wife used to HP. I am assuming she related to it better because she cooked all her life.
I showed and bought books to show her that CP is ready just as fast or faster then HP. Even in terms of losing weight. In fact, my last loaf I kept the first piece. I used it the next day after I made it. It didn't break or anything and I'm still using it. That was 10/29/17.
I was just looking back through my notes to give you a good average. I made a sandalwood bar back in May. In 4 weeks it only lost 11 grams. I might have only used 1.1 x the amount of water as lye. Most of the time their ready in two. I just hold on to them as long as I can to make sure.
And speaking of recipe, I have no problems giving it to you because I know its already been tried and I have 13 of them. But I would like to make them better and even longer. I'm up to 6-8 weeks now which is good enough but I want to see if I can get them even better with the way it feels on your skin.
I told my wife today we are going to order soap from somebody. It could be from here even. I want to see how ours stands up to the competition.


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## mx5inpenn (Nov 11, 2017)

Well I've avoided responding for a couple days now, but I might as well jump in...

iwannasoap, did you ever stop to think that your astounding idea about water is not a commonly accepted way of doing things for a reason? Or maybe you think every soaper except you is too stupid to figure it out?

Water evaporates. As long as you use enough to fully dissolve the lye and not so much that you have a soupy mess forever, it really doesn't matter much and everyone has their own preference for ratios.

As far as size of the batch goes, of course water makes a difference in how full your mold is. Again, is everyone but you too stupid to understand simple math? The part that is an issue for everyone involved is this... You care that the mold be filled to the exact point you decide on and want the minimal amount of water possible. It appears that *no one* else cares that much! I know how many ounces of oil I need at my typical water ratio for all of my molds. If I change that ratio for some reason, I understand I will end up with a very small difference in the amount that goes in the mold. It is *never* enough to cause any concern. 

As far as cured soap made with higher water not lasting as long... My bars made with 2:1 last me between 4 and 6 weeks. They only last 3 or 4 for my husband. Different people have different results with the same exact soap because of how they use it. I have never had someone complain that the bars I make don't last long enough. Since water evaporates, the oils you use and the salts they turn into have far more to do with longevity.

I am not going to argue with you or debate your methods ad nauseam. You do you. If it ends up as soap you like, you're doing it right. But remember that applies to everyone else as well.

Lastly, I would strongly suggest any person new to soaping completely ignore everything you have said. Early on is the time to experiment and learn from every variation, including water amounts, in every batch and figure out the things that work for you personally!


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Last try:
> 
> Many people, myself included, make batches based on oil weight.  All things considered, the amount of water and lye doesn't vary massively - even switching between a 100% OO or a 100% CO soap, a 1000g batch has a total batch size variance of 152 g at 30% solution strength, only 100g of which is water.  It really doesn't matter to most of us.
> 
> ...


I know its later and this has nothing to do with any post. But I'll tell you. Some people on here are some misquoted people and then turn around and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
Here's one for you - Been told on a couple of occasions, and even by smart people apparently, that higher water gels soap hotter. I tell them I disagree and tell them why. They are disagreeing just to make themselves sound right. I get sent a link explaining from a challenge by a Clara somebody about gelling water.
This is one of the first things it says "Auntie Clara explains it better than I will, but low water batter gels  at a higher temperature and possibly for a shorter time that high water  batter. "
Saying the exact thing I have been saying but yet I am so rude.
By the way, It is not for a shorter time. It will be for a longer time.

And, what do you mean "changing phases"?



mx6inpenn said:


> Well I've avoided responding for a couple days now, but I might as well jump in...
> 
> iwannasoap, did you ever stop to think that your astounding idea about water is not a commonly accepted way of doing things for a reason? Or maybe you think every soaper except you is too stupid to figure it out?
> 
> ...


"*As far as size of the batch goes, of course water makes a difference in  how full your mold is*. Again, is everyone but you too stupid to  understand simple math? "

I think your so busy being sarcastic that you completely missed what I was saying. So yes, in your case, I do think there might be ignorance involved. Briefly, Water does not make soap EVER. Water:Lye ratio that you like can be used for consistency. If you increase your oil, you will have the same exact water:lye ratio but more soap in the bar to last even longer! The total volume had nothing to do with it. It is what you do with that volume.
People on here are disagreeing just to be disagreeing. They give me an article to read. I go read it and it says exactly what I have been saying. Sounds like your one of them. I am sure that you make great soap but it is not me with the ego problem around here.


----------



## BrewerGeorge (Nov 11, 2017)

Wow.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 12, 2017)

BattleGnome said:


> I’ve been reading along without much to say (too many numbers, not a science person) and this right here is throwing a ton of clarification at me on why this discussion matters to you.
> 
> Two questions:
> What bar size do you usually make?
> ...


Well, your one of the few willing to try and understand what I've been saying. Thanks.
It isn't entirely water content vs. space that I wanted new people to know. 
This is it in a nutshell.
When I started using a soap calc, I realized that when my water:lye ratio lowered the total volume lowered. I never knew why? My loaves kept coming up short or had overages. My bars also did not come out as hard and I even wound up with partial gel on occasion.
Once my spread sheet was complete I found out why! I found out that when this happens you go back and re adjust your oil amount which results in more soap in the bar and your water:lye ratio will still be the same but with more oil to actually turn into soap and your total volume does not change.
It may not bother others but me being new at the time (still am) made it harder on my learning curve.
Once you figure out you can add more oil and still keep the same water:lye ratio then you are able to think about the fluidity of your soap. You have 2 choices. Adding more water or using a lye discount (Super fatting is the same thing) to get the fluidity you want. I have learned adding (would have learned this from a calc but they are not programmed enough) adding more water takes away the soap your bars will produce. However, lye discounting or just plain adding much more oil will give you the same fluidity. I learned this from my spreadsheet which a soap calc. is also capable of but they do not complete their programming in making the website. they just resize your total quantity and you lose the knowledge that could be gained. Sort of the difference between me and you in a car and a race car driver. We are just steering wheel holders. Here is a picture of one of my bars. Instead of an incredible amount of water it was lye discounted about 15% and it is still vary hard.
I admit there are things I could have done better and I will in the next time but it isn't to bad for doing it the first time.


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## mx5inpenn (Nov 12, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> "*As far as size of the batch goes, of course water makes a difference in  how full your mold is*. Again, is everyone but you too stupid to  understand simple math? "
> 
> I think your so busy being sarcastic that you completely missed what I was saying. So yes, in your case, I do think there might be ignorance involved. Briefly, Water does not make soap EVER. Water:Lye ratio that you like can be used for consistency. If you increase your oil, you will have the same exact water:lye ratio but more soap in the bar to last even longer! The total volume had nothing to do with it. It is what you do with that volume.
> People on here are disagreeing just to be disagreeing. They give me an article to read. I go read it and it says exactly what I have been saying. Sounds like your one of them. I am sure that you make great soap but it is not me with the ego problem around here.



First of all, I wasn't being sarcastic. Second, you are reading what you want to see, not what is actually said. *That* is ignorance. I didn't say water makes soap anywhere in my post. I am quite certain everyone here understands increasing oils and lye makes more soap. Your attitude that everyone is doing it wrong because it isn't your way is most certainly an ego problem. Your personal attack simply because I don't agree with you is most certainly an ego problem. 

A 4 oz bar of soap is a 4 oz bar of soap. It doesn't matter if you put 5 oz of water in your batch to start and I used 6 oz. The water evaporates, soap is what remains.


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## cmzaha (Nov 12, 2017)

All I am going to add to this is, if I had seen this thread has a new soaper I would have been so confused I probably would have never soaped a day in my life!! :headbanging: :headbanging: I use soap calculators because frankly I do not have the luxury of enough time to manually figure out my caustic soda requirement.


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## jcandleattic (Nov 12, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Wow.



Indeed


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## iwannasoap (Nov 12, 2017)

mx6inpenn said:


> First of all, I wasn't being sarcastic. Second, you are reading what you want to see, not what is actually said. *That* is ignorance. I didn't say water makes soap anywhere in my post. I am quite certain everyone here understands increasing oils and lye makes more soap. Your attitude that everyone is doing it wrong because it isn't your way is most certainly an ego problem. Your personal attack simply because I don't agree with you is most certainly an ego problem.
> 
> A 4 oz bar of soap is a 4 oz bar of soap. It doesn't matter if you put 5 oz of water in your batch to start and I used 6 oz. The water evaporates, soap is what remains.


Maybe I took you wrong and maybe I do have an ego problem I'll never know.
I do realize that you know water doesn't make soap. I understand.
But when you, and others, write things like 
"It doesn't matter if you put 5 oz of water in your batch to start and I used 6 oz. The water evaporates, soap is what remains."
My reasoning is this - when I made that batch with 5 oz. of water in it, I was able to put an extra ounce of oil in it to turn into soap. Where you on the other hand did not and that ounce you put in their wasted and evaporated. You replaced it with water. My water:lye ratio remains the same and I get the same fluidity. You do too, difference is more oil, same volume, same water:lye ratio. Do you see why I don't understand? Is is possible that their is a chance you don't understand what I am saying or is this something that you already know because if it is then all this was not written for you. I've wrote another comment that explained my problems and why I started this. If I would have understood this from the start my learning curve would have been much easier in understanding things like lye discount and adding water are far two different approaches, with one being better then the other, at achieving that same fluidity that you want.
All this is not my idea by the way. I have just learned from it and use it. A chemist wrote this in his book which is what I do and it works very well.


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## toxikon (Nov 12, 2017)

So can we condense the entire spiel into: you like to use a higher lye concentration so your bars remain slightly larger due to less water to evaporate?

So... In any soap calc, you can just set your lye concentration to 40-50% and go on your merry way?

You'll find that most of us recommend a lower lye concentration for newbies because:
a.) The batter will generally stay fluid a bit longer to allow for more working time (especially HP)
b.) The soap will achieve gel easier

After they have a few batches under their belt, they can play with water discounting more.

I personally started with a 25% lye concentration and I made some beautiful hard bars with that. 

I think most will find that your choice of oils has a much more noticeable effect on bar hardness and longevity than water content does. 

As long as you're curing your bars for the proper 4-6 weeks, most of the water content is going to evaporate.


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## Primrose (Nov 12, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> I know its later and this has nothing to do with any post. But I'll tell you. Some people on here are some misquoted people and then turn around and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
> Here's one for you - Been told on a couple of occasions, and even by smart people apparently, that higher water gels soap hotter. I tell them I disagree and tell them why. They are disagreeing just to make themselves sound right. I get sent a link explaining from a challenge by a Clara somebody about gelling water.
> This is one of the first things it says "Auntie Clara explains it better than I will, but low water batter gels at a higher temperature and possibly for a shorter time that high water batter. "
> Saying the exact thing I have been saying but yet I am so rude.
> ...


 
How on earth is this still going?????

I probably shouldn't jump in here but I'll bite. I might regret it. 

You seem to have trouble grasping the well known concept that high water soap batter achieves gel more easily than low water soap. 

You seem to be saying the opposite is true. 

Please explain this ghost swirl soap I made recently. The main portion of the batter was made with high water (but goats milk substituted for all the water). As we know, when goats milk gels it turns tan/brown. The small portion of the batter was made with very low water (milk). The soap was wrapped in a towel to encourage gel. 

Using your theory that low water soap gels easier, please explain why the low water portion of my batch has not gelled, and remains nice and white, whereas the majority of the soap which had high water, has gelled and turned a tan colour


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## mx5inpenn (Nov 13, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Maybe I took you wrong and maybe I do have an ego problem I'll never know.
> I do realize that you know water doesn't make soap. I understand.
> But when you, and others, write things like
> "It doesn't matter if you put 5 oz of water in your batch to start and I used 6 oz. The water evaporates, soap is what remains."
> ...



Yes, I understand what you are saying. As stated in my first post to you... You want to fill your mold with the maximum amount of oils you can. But it seems no one else here is that concerned with it. 

It makes a difference of a couple ounces of oil per pound of soap to go from 1:1 to 2:1 lye solution. That's not enough for me to concern myself with. I prefer to use more water for a variety of reasons, gel being one. Another is that I masterbatch my lye at 1:1 and like adding other liquids sometimes, milk and beer soaps are popular. I have worked with my recipes and can comfortably create the designs I want using 2:1 for most of them. You say you have the same fluidity as I do, but you don't actually know that. I don't want to have pudding, but I also don't want to wait and wait for trace. I don't always use 2:1. It varies with different recipes. I experimented and found what works best for me to get the results I want with each and every recipe I use.

Many of us have read Scientific Soapmaking, the book I assume you are referring to. Others still have actually been to lectures given by Kevin Dunn. His information is invaluable. However, I certainly don't recall anything in there about minimum water being the best way.

You say you are writing this for new soap makers, but in another post, you said you yourself are new. If it helps you understand, great. I gotta tell you tho, most people that decide one day that they want to make soap don't care to understand, study, read much or formulate anything. They want a recipe. They want everything figured out for them. There isn't anything wrong with that and there are plenty of recipes readily available to them. When people want to create their own, experimentation is part of the fun. It is also what teaches them what every little thing they change does to the final product. The soap community benefits from that because those are the people that know their product inside and out and can provide soaps that aren't an embarrassment to the rest of us.

As I said in my initial post, you do what works for you. Just accept what works for you isn't for everyone.


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## cmzaha (Nov 13, 2017)

I will mention when I first started soaping I used the default 38% water as % of Oil (approx 25% lye concentration), and had a terrible time with overheating, separation, crackle in other words all things mean. When I saw a post from IL mentioning 33% lye concentration I changed to using 33-35% lye concentration. Lo and behold the hot gelling and separation problems stopped, unless I use a naughty fragrance, and I now have to force gel. My recipe will very seldom gel without some persuasion. So I find Water does make a difference in gelling. 

I am sure some of you will remember the test of the Andalusian Soap with the lye heavy recipe and very high water. Scientific I am not, but by observation I think it was the high water that carried out the overage of lye in the soap creating a nice non zappy Olive Oil soap. I came to the conclusion because I ran a batch with a 33 or 40% lye concentration, sorry I do not remember for sure and I am at the parents so notes are home, my soap never cured out and 3 years later the piece I kept is still zappy. So I do not go with extremely high lye concentrations, I want the extra liquid in my soap during cure time. 

Not really sure if any of this pertains to this long thread that I became tired of reading. But I still would Not recommend this read to newbies


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## iwannasoap (Nov 13, 2017)

Primrose said:


> How on earth is this still going?????
> 
> I probably shouldn't jump in here but I'll bite. I might regret it.
> 
> ...


That's some pretty kool looking soap and a very tall order. Hope the heat didn't stay hot for too long to make it go bad in the future.
I'll answer your question like this. Low water soaps get hotter and saponify faster then medium and high water soaps therefore they come out of the mold much easier and faster. The rate at which they lose water is the same as medium and high water except they stop losing weight sooner - Not saying they are cured. They lose 2 weeks sooner then medium and 4 weeks before high.
However, in soap, their are 3 variables. Oil, water, and lye. Lye by _*itself*_ is safe to handle and is a stored form of energy. When water is combined with lye it allows for a heat transfer through a chemical reaction blah blah blah here.
Water molecules fill the gaps between lye and oil. As more water is added those gaps get larger and larger away from the heat source but it allows the lye to move more and more freely. This will tie in later.
Like all heat sources, the farther away from the heat source, the longer it takes to get hot. In that respect, low water gets hotter faster, saponifies more quickly and demolds faster and loses all of its weight about 4 weeks faster then high water. Their is another difference here also that I will get to later.
Higher water values do not nearly get as hot as 200 degrees as low water. Medium and low water values do tend to hover in the gelatinous stage together for a while but because the lye water is able to move around a little more freely it will not burn off energy as quickly as low water. It will not get as hot as low water but it does stay warmer longer because of the freedom the lye has. In other words, it is the same thing as putting your milk into a microwave for a minute on high. You'll probably have just warm milk. But if you put your milk in there for 10 on medium, Well you probably just spoiled your milk. Which is your case.
Getting back to the other difference that I favor. I perfectly well realize might or might not stay warm for longer periods of time, not hotter mind you, but for a longer period. I like to have my colors just bright enough but I prefer more oil with less water in the same volume of soap batter because right now I feel that more soap and lesser water means less weight loss a year from now. What that does in how it affects dragging away dirt, I don't know. I also feel right now that it will not dissove in water quite as easily. It does not freeze up on me and I don't get DOS. And don't ask me that question because I haven't experienced it for about 75 loaves. 
Do you still say I am confused?
One more thing. I still stand on the fact of soap calcs are decieving. If I chose a different water:lye ratio all it does is decrease my volume. If you just go back and readjust your oil, your volume will increase and you will still get the ratio you want.



cmzaha said:


> I will mention when I first started soaping I used the default 38% water as % of Oil (approx 25% lye concentration), and had a terrible time with overheating, separation, crackle in other words all things mean. When I saw a post from IL mentioning 33% lye concentration I changed to using 33-35% lye concentration. Lo and behold the hot gelling and separation problems stopped, unless I use a naughty fragrance, and I now have to force gel. My recipe will very seldom gel without some persuasion. So I find Water does make a difference in gelling.
> 
> I am sure some of you will remember the test of the Andalusian Soap with the lye heavy recipe and very high water. Scientific I am not, but by observation I think it was the high water that carried out the overage of lye in the soap creating a nice non zappy Olive Oil soap. I came to the conclusion because I ran a batch with a 33 or 40% lye concentration, sorry I do not remember for sure and I am at the parents so notes are home, my soap never cured out and 3 years later the piece I kept is still zappy. So I do not go with extremely high lye concentrations, I want the extra liquid in my soap during cure time.
> 
> Not really sure if any of this pertains to this long thread that I became tired of reading. But I still would Not recommend this read to newbies


A 50:50 water:lye solution is not necessarily a bad thing and can actually solve more problems then it creates especially with Olive oil.
I've only made it twice because of my 6 month waiting period.
Olive oil tends to resist so my first batch, I stick blended for about 2 hours and had to take breaks. My 2nd batch took about an hour so it was not a worry for too much lye. I just needed to make sure I scraped the sides of the bowl because the denser soap pushed the remaining lye water on the edges of the bowl. If I didn't do that it would have been poured on the bottom, edges and corners of the soap. Make it easier to break off. I unmolded the next day and have been waiting ever since. 
38 oz OO
5% Superfat
.135 * (38 *.05) = 138 grams of water and 138 grams of lye.
Was actually very easy and is still looking very nice. By February they will be ready.
I was hoping to get the kind of OO that would eventually turn the soap green but I guess I chose the wrong kind.



mx6inpenn said:


> Yes, I understand what you are saying. As stated in my first post to you... You want to fill your mold with the maximum amount of oils you can. But it seems no one else here is that concerned with it.
> 
> It makes a difference of a couple ounces of oil per pound of soap to go from 1:1 to 2:1 lye solution. That's not enough for me to concern myself with. I prefer to use more water for a variety of reasons, gel being one. Another is that I masterbatch my lye at 1:1 and like adding other liquids sometimes, milk and beer soaps are popular. I have worked with my recipes and can comfortably create the designs I want using 2:1 for most of them. You say you have the same fluidity as I do, but you don't actually know that. I don't want to have pudding, but I also don't want to wait and wait for trace. I don't always use 2:1. It varies with different recipes. I experimented and found what works best for me to get the results I want with each and every recipe I use.
> 
> ...


There was actually a period in between the two sentences that you thought I was saying that mine was the same as yours. lol. I had to look closely myself.
What I referring to was, however way you do it, you try to get a certain fluidity too! 
I once accidentally superfatted 15% which was the same thing as an extreme lye discount. It was pretty fluid and it worked out really well. Couldn't you do that instead of using lots of water? Not questioning your method just asking about your madness. lol
You seem to be doing pretty well and I like that.

Oh yeah, He doesn't say it is best. He implies that it is just as good and should not be afraid of it.
It is from that point that I was able to put more oil in it and it has eliminated a few problems.


----------



## Millie (Nov 13, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Once you figure out you can add more oil and still keep the same water:lye ratio then you are able to think about the fluidity of your soap. You have 2 choices. Adding more water or using a lye discount (Super fatting is the same thing) to get the fluidity you want. I have learned adding (would have learned this from a calc but they are not programmed enough) adding more water takes away the soap your bars will produce. However, lye discounting or just plain adding much more oil will give you the same fluidity. I learned this from my spreadsheet which a soap calc. is also capable of but they do not complete their programming in making the website. they just resize your total quantity and you lose the knowledge that could be gained. Sort of the difference between me and you in a car and a race car driver. We are just steering wheel holders. Here is a picture of one of my bars. Instead of an incredible amount of water it was lye discounted about 15% and it is still vary hard.



Iwannasoap, you make beautiful soaps!

I, um, can't believe this thread is still going. I know I said I was done, but my willpower is weak. Last night I tried to explain this 90+ post thread to DH. Here goes:

Barista: Would you like room for cream?

Sir: Yes please.

Barista hands coffee cup to customer.

Sir: There is LESS COFFEE in my cup! 

Barista: Yes, but you asked for room for cream. Less coffee, more cream. 

Sir: Less coffee means less caffeine!

Barista: Can I top that off for you?

Sir hands back cup. It is filled to the brim with coffee. Sir goes to cream and sugar stand. Picks up jug of cream.

Sir: THERE IS NO ROOM FOR CREAM IN MY CUP!!!

Barista: Yes sir, would you like me to dump some of that out for you? No? Ok, would you like to upgrade to a large coffee?

Sir: I don't want to pay for a large coffee, I want this cup, full, with cream! You may not know this, but the more cream you put in the cup, the less coffee you can put in the cup, so you must fill up the cup but leave _just enough_ room for cream, maximazing the caffeine in the cup! They probably don't tell you this in training....

Lights fade as line forms behind Sir. End scene.

I can't resist playing the devil's advocate here: do you know that the higher your superfat, the less soap in your bar? Not to mention glycerin just wasting space in there. That could totally be removed. Water will evaporate, so no worries there.

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:


----------



## bathgeek (Nov 14, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> You will get the same size for now. But water does not turn into soap so a year from now how much will it weigh versus a bar with more soap in it. Soap weighs more then water.
> What if you wanted to increase the oils to keep that from happening while at the same time keeping your water:lye ratio that you like? What do you do then?




Like Kittish said, I will probably regret coming into this thread, but this was an amazing car wreck. I can’t look away. 

You said you will get the same size for now. I think that you are talking about fresh soap, which is only a step or so removed from soap batter. Yes, over time, a 50oz fresh loaf made with more water will turn into a smaller loaf than a 50oz fresh loaf made with less water. 

As Obsidian and everyone else has said, most soapers (even beginning soapers) learn the relationship between SAP values, oils, and lye. No one considers the water except as “that thing you dissolve lye in to activate it”. Yes, high water and low water create useful effects, but you can Soap very well without ever taking those effects into consideration. Soap that gels vs soap that doesn’t gel, difference is cosmetic, it’s still soap. 

Long story short: “what if you want to increase your oils to keep that from happening?” I assume from context here that when you say “that” you mean “fresh soap shrinking into finished bar”. 

Weighing your bars of fresh soap is counterproductive except as a way to roughly gauge how far along your soap is in the evaporation process. Sure, I cut my med-water fresh soap and I got 140g per bar. (I use grams while curing soap because of the smaller sensitivity.) One week later it’s 130g. Four weeks later it’s 121g, a loss of 19g over a month. Whereas my low water soap after four weeks might have lost 15g and my high water soap lost 25g. 

Whatever. This is not important to the soapmaking process.  To borrow a programming simile, it’s like saying I have three spaces in my line indents/tabs in Program A and 15 spaces (yikes) in Program B. Or that Program A has no empty lines, commenting is always appended at the end of a line of code, vs the paragraph commenting in Program B. Programmer A likes to be sparing with their white space (water) and Programmer B likes using white space. 

The program is the same. Sure, the raw code before compiling is smaller for Programmer A and bigger for Programmer B. But then you compile the code (cure the soap). In the end you get the same soap as long as you ignore the water. 

Water in soap is like white space and empty lines in programming. You are not programming in Python. 

This is why everyone else is telling you that it doesn’t matter how much water there is. Water is white space.



iwannasoap said:


> I once accidentally superfatted 15% which was the same thing as an extreme lye discount. It was pretty fluid and it worked out really well. Couldn't you do that instead of using lots of water?




Do you realize that all that unsaponified oil will turn rancid much quicker than the soap will? People soap with high water instead of a high super fat in order to not have a rancid (or oily) bar of soap at the end. (Extreme oversimplification based only on wanting the soap batter to be more fluid. I know there are other reasons to superfat. ^_^)


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## iwannasoap (Nov 14, 2017)

Millie said:


> Iwannasoap, you make beautiful soaps!
> 
> I, um, can't believe this thread is still going. I know I said I was done, but my willpower is weak. Last night I tried to explain this 90+ post thread to DH. Here goes:
> 
> ...


I'm drinking my coffee right now reading this great analogy as a matter of fact! 
And for the first time in this thread someone has me stumped.
I normally superfat very low or if I feel a little froggy none at all and I did suspect the excess oil to wash down the drain a little quicker but had no idea about the glycerin. That, my friend, I would like to know more about!
Maybe it is a good idea then not to SF too much.
I guess that is why this might be a good thread for things like that to come out in the open.
Thank you by the way.
RJ



Primrose said:


> How on earth is this still going?????
> 
> I probably shouldn't jump in here but I'll bite. I might regret it.
> 
> ...


I hope you don't mind but I'd like to message you one more time.
You really hit to the core of this whole discussion and it is probably the source of this whole discussion which really put me through my paces.
We were both right in one sense or another but in a slightly reversed way.
You, and many others have said, that slightly higher water, if I interpret it correctly seem to say, gels hotter.
That is where I say that less water gels gels quicker and hotter which is in fact true. But that is not necessarily better.
The reason our differences were skewed is that neither one of us considered "time" as a factor.
Time in the gel phase is better and that is where slightly higher water comes into the picture.
So time is the key and not higher heat to burn off quicker. So, thanks again. You really hit home and hopefully we both learned something.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 14, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> ...........That is where I say that less water gels gels quicker and hotter which is in fact true..............



But that is not a definite truth in the way that you present it.  Here's why:

Soap does indeed need heat in order to gel. Gel being a change in phase, if we are being correct.  But it needs more than just heat - it needs water.  Without water, the amount of heat needed would be impractical for pretty much all soaping applications.  Think of it like a lubricant in an engine - no oil means that the engine CAN run, but it runs much better with oil.  Too little oil and it starts to very wrong indeed.

More water makes it easier for a phase change to happen at a given temperature.  Let's take x Celcius as our temperature.  With a set amount of water at x, the soap will be able to gel.  Lower that water amount too much and the soap cannot gel at x.  You have to increase the temperature to get that soap to gel.


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## Saranac (Nov 14, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> 38 oz OO
> 5% Superfat
> .135 * (38 *.05) = 138 grams of water and 138 grams of lye.



Just wanted to point out that there is a flaw in your math.

First, multiplying your oil weight by .05 and the SAP value will not give you the amount of NaOH needed for a 5% SF; it gives you the amount needed for a 95% SF.
Second, for some (newbies?) it may not be evident where the "138 grams" come from as you started out with 38 _ounces_ of oil.

The formula would be more accurate if written as--

38 oz * 0.135 * 0.95 = 4.874 oz NaOH

(where 38 oz is the amount of oil, 0.135 is the SAP value, and 0.95 is the percentage of oil that you want saponified).

Then--

4.874 oz * 28.35 g/oz = 138.164 g

(28.35 g/oz is the conversion factor for converting ounces to grams).

Your result is the same, but the math to get there is incorrect.


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## Saponificarian (Nov 14, 2017)

Wow! This is 10 pages already??! I promised myself I wasn’t going to say anything but... For the sake of potential newbies.  

‘A Wise man will hear and increase in learning and a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel’ Proberbs. That is the verse that popped up when I read this thread. 

This is the one thread I pray a newbie never read on SMF because it will confuse and make a fun and truly rewarding hobby really tedious. 

If at page 10 the OP still see things his way, another 15-20 pages is not going to change his mind..


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## mx5inpenn (Nov 14, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> There was actually a period in between the two sentences that you thought I was saying that mine was the same as yours. lol. I had to look closely myself.
> What I referring to was, however way you do it, you try to get a certain fluidity too!
> I once accidentally superfatted 15% which was the same thing as an extreme lye discount. It was pretty fluid and it worked out really well. Couldn't you do that instead of using lots of water? Not questioning your method just asking about your madness. lol
> You seem to be doing pretty well and I like that.
> ...


Yes, I want a certain fluidity. However I certainly don't want 15% superfat to achieve that in a regular bar of soap. I can't help but think that would feel greasy after a wash. I make a recipe with higher coconut oil (25%) that I superfat at 7% and that is plenty. I do make salt bars with 20% superfat, which is pretty standard, but they need the higher superfat to counteract the stripping quality of the 80-100% coconut oil. I am not really a big fan of them, but they are popular!

I just can't see why adding extra oil to achieve fluidity would be preferable to extra water. The water goes away, the oil doesn't. And it doesn't turn into soap, which I read as your whole premise from the start.

And when I say superfat, I really do mean lye discount, because the lye calculators actually are doing a lye discount for you and just call it superfat. It's only really superfat if you are adding extra oils, such as some people do in hp. For example, you want to make a 100% coconut oil soap. Your mold holds 1000 g, you can use 1000 g in soapcalc with 20% superfat (lye discount) and it will calculate lye for 800 g. If you want to actually figure it as superfat, you do the math... 1000 g * .80 = 800 g for the saponified amount and 1000 g - 800 g = 200 g for the superfat amount. While a single oil recipe is quite simple, multiple oils becomes more complex. Since you can't determine which oils will actually be the superfat in cp, it isn't worth it to me. I'll let the calc do it for me. Especially when you consider that if you really want a true superfat, you can enter 0% as superfat in the calc and it won't discount the lye. Easier to say 5% of 1000 g is 50 g to add later (in hp anyway).


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## Obsidian (Nov 14, 2017)

I wouldn't use oil or water for fluidity, temperature control and less SBing will keep your soap more fluid for longer unless you have a crazy fast tracing recipe.


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## mx5inpenn (Nov 14, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> I wouldn't use oil or water for fluidity, temperature control and less SBing will keep your soap more fluid for longer unless you have a crazy fast tracing recipe.



I should have worded my post differently. I don't add extra water for fluidity. I was referring to more than 1:1, extra being any amount over the amount needed for lye. I have determined that most of my recipes move at a speed I have plenty of working time with at 2:1.


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## Obsidian (Nov 14, 2017)

Gotcha, I use 2:1 also. Seems to be a good amount for all my recipes, do use a bit more water for HP though.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 14, 2017)

Well the conversion was pretty helpful and thanks.
My equation just had a pair of parenthesis which needs to be worked first and therefore didn't need to use .95
The both work out though to the same answer.
You would have to excuse me doing that. That is about what I do when I used to write programs.



Obsidian said:


> I wouldn't use oil or water for fluidity, temperature control and less SBing will keep your soap more fluid for longer unless you have a crazy fast tracing recipe.


What is Sbing?



mx6inpenn said:


> Yes, I want a certain fluidity. However I certainly don't want 15% superfat to achieve that in a regular bar of soap. I can't help but think that would feel greasy after a wash. I make a recipe with higher coconut oil (25%) that I superfat at 7% and that is plenty. I do make salt bars with 20% superfat, which is pretty standard, but they need the higher superfat to counteract the stripping quality of the 80-100% coconut oil. I am not really a big fan of them, but they are popular!
> 
> I just can't see why adding extra oil to achieve fluidity would be preferable to extra water. The water goes away, the oil doesn't. And it doesn't turn into soap, which I read as your whole premise from the start.
> 
> And when I say superfat, I really do mean lye discount, because the lye calculators actually are doing a lye discount for you and just call it superfat. It's only really superfat if you are adding extra oils, such as some people do in hp. For example, you want to make a 100% coconut oil soap. Your mold holds 1000 g, you can use 1000 g in soapcalc with 20% superfat (lye discount) and it will calculate lye for 800 g. If you want to actually figure it as superfat, you do the math... 1000 g * .80 = 800 g for the saponified amount and 1000 g - 800 g = 200 g for the superfat amount. While a single oil recipe is quite simple, multiple oils becomes more complex. Since you can't determine which oils will actually be the superfat in cp, it isn't worth it to me. I'll let the calc do it for me. Especially when you consider that if you really want a true superfat, you can enter 0% as superfat in the calc and it won't discount the lye. Easier to say 5% of 1000 g is 50 g to add later (in hp anyway).


That 15% was by accident and its not greasy at all. In fact you cant even tell.
It is a wooden looking bar that I made. I kept wondering, while I was pouring the different colored circles, why hasn't my recipe hardened up yet. It has like 3 hard oils and a few soft oils and Palm Kernel flakes hardens kind of fast.
Then later when I was entering my notes I noticed that I had changed a few things on my spread sheet and just copied and pasted some other oils in the same recipe I was working on. That recipe only had 3 oils before now it has 5 with lots of shea butter in it.
 I actually only SF between 0 - 3% may be 5%.



bathgeek said:


> Like Kittish said, I will probably regret coming into this thread, but this was an amazing car wreck. I can’t look away.
> 
> You said you will get the same size for now. I think that you are talking about fresh soap, which is only a step or so removed from soap batter. Yes, over time, a 50oz fresh loaf made with more water will turn into a smaller loaf than a 50oz fresh loaf made with less water.
> 
> ...


That sounds pretty clear to me.
But, I will tell you that I had an epiphanyin this thread. I was just looking for his response when I saw this so I stopped here for a sec.
In a nutshell, soap calcs are wrongfully designed in the way of the print button. When a ratio changes your total volume will change. It will not readjust the oils that you need to maintain your requirement. I only learned that when I completed my spreadsheet. It is not so obvious from working a soap calc that you can increase your oil when your water decreases. Your oils increases but your water:lye ratio will stay the same.
 The main thing is if various ingredients adjusted and still kept the volume that I wanted I would have learned much more. That is really the only way it is deceiving. It is hiding how the adjustments really work. Couldnt think of a one liner


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## Obsidian (Nov 14, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> What is Sbing?



Stick blending


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## iwannasoap (Nov 14, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But that is not a definite truth in the way that you present it.  Here's why:
> 
> Soap does indeed need heat in order to gel. Gel being a change in phase, if we are being correct.  But it needs more than just heat - it needs water.  Without water, the amount of heat needed would be impractical for pretty much all soaping applications.  Think of it like a lubricant in an engine - no oil means that the engine CAN run, but it runs much better with oil.  Too little oil and it starts to very wrong indeed.
> 
> More water makes it easier for a phase change to happen at a given temperature.  Let's take x Celcius as our temperature.  With a set amount of water at x, the soap will be able to gel.  Lower that water amount too much and the soap cannot gel at x.  You have to increase the temperature to get that soap to gel.


What do you call reaching gel "easier". Does it mean faster, quicker or hotter?
If your talking about reaching a gel phase pudding like mixture easier then maybe yes you are correct with more, not alot, but more water. If your talking about reaching  gel phase quicker in the definition of hotter then that would be low water recipes. But the difference between the 2 is that medium water might not get as hot but it will stay in the gel phase longer. 
That really is the key and why medium water is better. It is LENGTH OF TIME that matters more then anything and the fellow with the beige soap was great example. Low water soaps have a melting point (gel phase) as high as boiling water. Medium water does not and I guess you could say that is "easier" and takes less energy to get there and it stays in the gel phase longer.
My original thought process was the hotter the better. But that is only good if it maintains the heat. Low water will not maintain that heat as well as medium water. It fizzles out!
I did have to break out a book, while it does confirm low water gets hotter it is not necessarily better or worse the medium water. And it's conclusion is  length of "time" in the gel phase should be considered. I agree. The length of time in the gel phase was turning the sugar and protein in his goats milk soap. 
_I would rather put milk in the microwave for a minute versus 5 minutes!_


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## Primrose (Nov 14, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> That's some pretty kool looking soap and a very tall order. Hope the heat didn't stay hot for too long to make it go bad in the future.
> I'll answer your question like this. Low water soaps get hotter and saponify faster then medium and high water soaps therefore they come out of the mold much easier and faster. The rate at which they lose water is the same as medium and high water except they stop losing weight sooner - Not saying they are cured. They lose 2 weeks sooner then medium and 4 weeks before high.
> However, in soap, their are 3 variables. Oil, water, and lye. Lye by _*itself*_ is safe to handle and is a stored form of energy. When water is combined with lye it allows for a heat transfer through a chemical reaction blah blah blah here.
> Water molecules fill the gaps between lye and oil. As more water is added those gaps get larger and larger away from the heat source but it allows the lye to move more and more freely. This will tie in later.
> ...



Yes I still think you are confused. I didn't ask about saponification rate, I asked about gel. I haven't been able to decipher an answer your response, to my question. Clearly the low water (milk) portion of my soap HASNT gelled. The high water (milk) portion has. But you seem to believe the opposite would occur. How else did I manage this colour variation? 

I do thank you for the compliment on the soap  I was pretty happy with how it turned out   

I do have to ask though, are you also now saying that gelling a milk soap ruins it?? LOL it hasn't ruined my soap, trust me. People do HP with goats milk and don't ruin it. Some people choose to gel milk soap routinely and it doesn't ruin it.


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## Primrose (Nov 14, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> You, and many others have said, that slightly higher water, if I interpret it correctly seem to say, gels hotter.
> That is where I say that less water gels gels quicker and hotter which is in fact true.



I guess I have to admire you for being so certain that you are correct, when in fact you are wrong. Repeatedly saying it, doesn't make it true. 

Btw - I'm not a fellow


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## SudsanSoaps (Nov 14, 2017)

I'm I understanding correctly that
Low water gels at 200 but only reaches 140
Medium water gels at 160 and heats itself to 160 
High water gels at 140 and heats itself to 180

Those were just random numbers for clarification.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 14, 2017)

It might be that you're understanding what Iwanna is saying ... but that does NOT mean what is being said is correct.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 15, 2017)

Last try (again)

First of all, let's park whether or not soaps with more or less water get hotter and focus on the ability to change phase as a standalone:

Soaps with more water will change phase at lower temperatures than soaps with less water. Soaps with very low water will need to reach such temperatures to change phase that it might not be practical or even desired to take a soap there. 

Back to water and temperature of soap in general, even if a soap with more water doesn't get as hot, it's can still very easily reach that temperature where the water amount means that the phase can change. Even if lower water soaps get hotter, it might not reach that point that it needs to be able to change phase. You can heat it up in some ways, of course, but it still might not do it.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 15, 2017)

Primrose said:


> I guess I have to admire you for being so certain that you are correct, when in fact you are wrong. Repeatedly saying it, doesn't make it true.
> 
> Btw - I'm not a fellow


That's where this thread has taken a twist and a mind of its own and the misconception of heat is skewed with gelling.
When I talk about low water I am talking about a 50:50 water lye ratio. Anything less and crystallization is a certainty and there just might be a chance you are correct. Water does seem to carry that heat and make the heat last longer. But, at the same time, it is inversely proportional to temperature. As more water is added the heat will drop.
Temperature wise, low water does get hotter then medium water. However, where the misinterpretation of what is better is skewed even for you! Let me ask you this. The amount of TIME in the gel phase is the factor that has been forgotten about.
Would you rather your soap gel for 2 hours or would you rather your soap gel for 4 hours. It seems gelling, if your going to gel, is important. But time is also a key factor. That is where low water fails. Both reach gel phase but low water comes out of gel phase quicker. It is not the highest heat, if your looking for gelling, that is the most important which is where we are getting confused. It is the reasonable length of time in the gel phase. High water has the lowest temperature rating, takes the longest there, and probably takes the longest to get out of gel phase. And if you think about, that is probably the reason that they have to stay in the mold the longest. It takes forever just for you to cut it.
And if you still don't believe me then try this..
Scientific Soapmaking by Kevin Dunn, page 307.
In addition, I was never talking about radiant heat. Always, in anything, the further away the heat source, the lower the temperature.


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## Primrose (Nov 15, 2017)

Time doesn't mean Jack to me actually, because whether it's two or four hours it's still 24-36 hours before I can cut my recipe; thus I make it in the evening and insulate it to encourage gel and don't look at it again until the next evening. 

Why are you hung up on time?

You still haven't answered my question where I asked you to explain why my low milk batter has stayed white instead of gelling. If the answer is time, it is several weeks old now and still looks the same; I think we are well and truly past gel stage LOL


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## cherrycoke216 (Nov 15, 2017)

Mmm...maybe you mean scorched milk? some post earlier, you said that milk has a smell. Butyric acid in milk meets lye, it will create a distinctive stink, and the temperature being higher, will make it stinkier.

And did you use the SAME recipe in these experiments? If you are not using same recipe, same oils, the soap will NOT last for the same period of time.

If you use Soapee calc, there is a number called longevity. It's Hardness - cleansing number. (if you're using soap calc ) You want your soap to last as long as possible, try bump up the Lard, tallow, or palm oil usage rate. Or bump up palmitic and stearic acid number. ( correct me if I am wrong,  had a insomnia night ,and now I'm dizzy )


ETA: your soap is beautiful. Maybe try make more beautiful soaps, do more experiments, and not spent too many time on thinking about water...


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## Primrose (Nov 15, 2017)

Milk only scorches when mixing with lye, not when gelling


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## iwannasoap (Nov 15, 2017)

SudsanSoaps said:


> I'm I understanding correctly that
> Low water gels at 200 but only reaches 140
> Medium water gels at 160 and heats itself to 160
> High water gels at 140 and heats itself to 180
> ...


Hi there,
I understand your using random numbers and I get it.
This is how it goes (mostly:-?)
When I started this thread, just a few days ago, this is where I was at / Low water gets hotter and still goes through the gel phase| emphasis on period here| It is quicker to remove from the mold and I can use more oil thus have more soap instead of water.
Since then, through the help of a ghost swirl picture of goats milk earlier in this thread my thinking has evolved further and is backed up by the very challenge from this website, books, and this Aunty Clara woman from South Africa. 
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/09/the-ghost-swirl/
I read this article after I formulated what I am about to say but even this Clara person says lower water is hotter.
My new line of thinking has skewed a little and this is why -
Gelling, as far as I know, does nothing but brighten color. That is it period!
If you notice on the link that I give, her brighter color yellow is on the inside, the duller yellow is on the outside.
It is NOT brighter because the higher water got hotter. It is brighter because the higher water amount stayed hot the longest. It was not the hottest but it stayed in the gel phase for a sufficient amount of _time. Time is also a factor that needs to be considered.
Low water reaches gel phase like a rocket. It is the hottest but like a rocket it fizzles out quicker. If you notice on the milk bars, a couple of pages ago in this thread, his low water part turned out white and his high water turned a darker beige?? His diagnosis I presume is that since one part turned darker and the other part whiter then the darker part is what got hot. Right answer but opposite side of the field. The theory that I said above still applies.
His low water shot up like a rocket,gelled and fizzled out fast, and then started reducing temperature. It was not a sufficient amount of time to affect the color of the proteins and sugars in his milk.! In fact, if I make goats milk I just might go this route on a small test sample instead of keeping it cool to prevent spoilage. To test this here is a hypothesis question: Which milk would you drink - a milk that was in the microwave for a minute OR a milk that was in the microwave for 5 minutes...Both temperatures are the same in the microwave but which one would spoil first?
And, if you ask me about the cooler temp of more water then I 'll just have to go in on the whole molecule thing and how the water transfers heat from the lye to the oil. As more and more water is introduced the farther and farther the heat source is - _the lye.
Heat has an inverse relationship with gel.
As the temperature rises, the length of time it needs to gel is shorter.
Higher water is proportionate to gel - The more water the longer the gel phase. Too much water and the wait time will be forever and you might get a sticky mess.
Temperature has an inverse relationship with water. The higher the water content the lower the temperature which also lengthens the gel phase (which the soap might not ever get out of).
So, before I just wanted a quick gel phase and still get it out of the mold the next day. I still want to do that.
But however, I might not get quite as bright of a color as I should have gotten if I just reduce the temperature a little by adding some (as in going from 1x the lye to maybe 1.1 and 1.4 times the lye) extra water.
So, my thinking has evolved somewhat but I still stand by the fact that lower water gets hotter and is not synonymous with a longer gel phase because that is not the case.

Do you see what I am saying now?
Also, how good the mold is in insulation, the outside temp exchanging with the loaf temperature and things like that also effect the heat but by itself, in the extreme heat department, low water wins hands down.
There is a downside extreme heat also.




Primrose said:


> Milk only scorches when mixing with lye, not when gelling


If I said scorch then what I was meaning was that it was in gel phase long enough to effect the sugar and proteins color.
The higher water produces a longer gel phase. The lower water produces a shorter gel phase and cools off quicker (as in unmolding and cutting). That is why the lower water part of his bar stayed white. It was not an efficient amount of time to effect the color.
Temperature is not synonymous with gelling and it has an inverse relationship. The higher the temperature the shorter the gel phase. The length of gel phase is what you want to produce color. The only way to do that is add more then a 50:50 lye solution. As you probably already know, this is why your high water recipes can take forever to get out of the mold.


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## jcandleattic (Nov 15, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Low water reaches gel phase like a rocket.



But you are saying this as if it is an absolute which is absolutely 100% false and NOT TRUE. 

I have to force my low water soaps to gel. They do NOT reach gel phase like a rocket (or at all if I do not cover, insulate, or otherwise make sure the soap is warm enough to gel)
The EXACT OPPOSITE is true of my high water soaps. I can leave them on the counter unaided, mold exposed uncovered and they will gel almost every time without any added insulation. 
This is not a guess, or what I *think* will happen, it's been proven by me to me with actual real life soaping experience. 

I think the main reason people do not think you know what you are talking about, or are disagreeing with you so much is because you present everything as an absolute without anybody else's benefit of actual real life experience. 

Just because that is what you have experienced, and that's what happens with your particular soaps/recipes, does not mean that it is an absolute and the ONLY THING that can or even WILL happen. 
It just isn't. And yet you keep arguing with years and years of experience to the contrary.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 15, 2017)

jcandleattic said:


> But you are saying this as if it is an absolute which is absolutely 100% false and NOT TRUE.
> 
> I have to force my low water soaps to gel. They do NOT reach gel phase like a rocket (or at all if I do not cover, insulate, or otherwise make sure the soap is warm enough to gel)
> The EXACT OPPOSITE is true of my high water soaps. I can leave them on the counter unaided, mold exposed uncovered and they will gel almost every time without any added insulation.
> ...


Read Scientific soapmaking pg 306
AND read this link carefully
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/09/the-ghost-swirl/
She does not say as extensively as I do but she says the same thing and refers to the same book!
Since I have reduced my water I do not get soda ash period, covered, not covered, period!
Notice, if you read carefully, she says the same thing.
Like I said earlier. Temperature and gel phase are two different things and are not to be confused with each other. That is the major misunderstanding in this thread. Lower water reaches gel phase quicker, does its thing, and starts cooling. Adding water is like turning the thermostat down to take a little more time in the gel phase because the brilliancy in color is what you want. The downside to adding more and more water is it takes longer and much longer to get out of the gel phase. An example to that is having to wait more then one day to unmold, maybe up to a week and then hope you don't get a sticky mess. It is "time" in the gel that you are forgetting about (me too) and are confusing with heat. The more heat the shorter the gel phase. This is the exact reason for hot process soap and looking at it like this fits like a glove.

One more thing - If you have to force gel you might want to re-exam how your lye is calculated, whether or not you are superfatting too much or even the quality of your oil and/or the SAP value of your oil. I am not there so I can only say the extreme causes. Oh yeah, I forgot - the size AND/OR insulation of what you are making also has everything to gel. Small things have a hard time gelling and will not hold heat so you have to put it in the oven for about an hour.



cherrycoke216 said:


> Mmm...maybe you mean scorched milk? some post earlier, you said that milk has a smell. Butyric acid in milk meets lye, it will create a distinctive stink, and the temperature being higher, will make it stinkier.
> 
> And did you use the SAME recipe in these experiments? If you are not using same recipe, same oils, the soap will NOT last for the same period of time.
> 
> ...


That was funny! Thanks.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 15, 2017)

"...I have to force my low water soaps to gel. They do NOT reach gel phase like a rocket ... The EXACT OPPOSITE is true of my high water soaps.... And yet you keep arguing with years and years of experience to the contrary...."

Dunn's and others' research and my observations agree precisely with your experience, JC. 

New soapers ... beware. Iwanna is making a lot of forceful, repetitive statements about what this person believes to be true, but repetition and forcefulness (and belittling other people in the process) do NOT mean what this person is saying is actually correct. I can't stop this, but I can and will continue to warn.


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## Primrose (Nov 15, 2017)

Ok see now its just getting annoying that you keep referring to me as a man. I would have though my username being Primrose would give you an idea that I'm female, but then I pointed it out to you directly that I'm not a man, yet you keep referring to me as "him/his"

That being put aside ... not the white coloured, low milk portion of my soap didn't gel. Sorry but no matter how many time you say it, it doesn't make it true. If it "gelled like a rocket" as you put it, it still would have changed colour. Quite simply, its white because it didn't gel at all. 

And my recipes take a few days to unmould because I use mostly liquid oils (bastille). Not because of high water (milk).


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## iwannasoap (Nov 15, 2017)

But it did gel my friend! It just heated up faster, gelled and then started cooling. It was not an efficient amount of time to effect the color of the sugars and proteins or what ever it does in gel phase. Everything in nature requires efficient enough time or energy. Even melting steel colors shift and change phase. If the heat is applied is weak then a greater amount of time is required to change the color of steel as its heating. If you don't mind, while I was looking for your response, I found a similar question and this is what I typed. Pleas pay close attention. My wife said I lost her (she was looking at her cellphone).

Hi there,
I understand your using random numbers and I get it.
This is how it goes (mostly:???
When I started this thread, just a few days ago, this is where I was at /  Low water gets hotter and still goes through the gel phase| emphasis on  period here| It is quicker to remove from the mold and I can use more  oil thus have more soap instead of water.
Since then, through the help of a ghost swirl picture of goats milk  earlier in this thread my thinking has evolved further and is backed up  by the very challenge from this website, books, and this Aunty Clara  woman from South Africa. 
https://auntieclaras.com/2015/09/the-ghost-swirl/
I read this article after I formulated what I am about to say but even this Clara person says lower water is hotter.
My new line of thinking has skewed a little and this is why -
Gelling, as far as I know, does nothing but brighten color. That is it period!
If you notice on the link that I give, her brighter color yellow is on the inside, the duller yellow is on the outside.
It is NOT brighter because the higher water got hotter. It is brighter  because the higher water amount stayed hot the longest. It was not the  hottest but it stayed in the gel phase for a sufficient amount of _time. Time is also a factor that needs to be considered.
Low water reaches gel phase like a rocket. It is the hottest but like a  rocket it fizzles out quicker. If you notice on the milk bars, a couple  of pages ago in this thread, his low water part turned out white and his  high water turned a darker beige?? His diagnosis I presume is that  since one part turned darker and the other part whiter then the darker  part is what got hot. Right answer but opposite side of the field. The  theory that I said above still applies.
His low water shot up like a rocket,gelled and fizzled out fast, and  then started reducing temperature. It was not a sufficient amount of  time to affect the color of the proteins and sugars in his milk.! In  fact, if I make goats milk I just might go this route on a small test  sample instead of keeping it cool to prevent spoilage. To test this here  is a hypothesis question: Which milk would you drink - a milk that was  in the microwave for a minute OR a milk that was in the microwave for 5  minutes...Both temperatures are the same in the microwave but which one  would spoil first?
And, if you ask me about the cooler temp of more water then I 'll just  have to go in on the whole molecule thing and how the water transfers  heat from the lye to the oil. As more and more water is introduced the  farther and farther the heat source is - _the lye.
Heat has an inverse relationship with gel.
As the temperature rises, the length of time it needs to gel is shorter.
Higher water is proportionate to gel - The more water the longer the gel  phase. Too much water and the wait time will be forever and you might  get a sticky mess.
Temperature has an inverse relationship with water. The higher the water  content the lower the temperature which also lengthens the gel phase  (which the soap might not ever get out of).
So, before I just wanted a quick gel phase and still get it out of the mold the next day. I still want to do that.
But however, I might not get quite as bright of a color as I should have  gotten if I just reduce the temperature a little by adding some (as in  going from 1x the lye to maybe 1.1 and 1.4 times the lye) extra water.
So, my thinking has evolved somewhat but I still stand by the fact that  lower water gets hotter and is not synonymous with a longer gel phase  because that is not the case.

Do you see what I am saying now?
Also, how good the mold is in insulation, the outside temp exchanging  with the loaf temperature and things like that also effect the heat but  by itself, in the extreme heat department, low water wins hands down.
There is a downside extreme heat also.


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## BrewerGeorge (Nov 15, 2017)

It can't die if we keep feeding it!

(He says, tossing it another bone.) :twisted:


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## iwannasoap (Nov 15, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> It can't die if we keep feeding it!
> 
> (He says, tossing it another bone.) :twisted:


Lol..



Primrose said:


> Ok see now its just getting annoying that you keep referring to me as a man. I would have though my username being Primrose would give you an idea that I'm female, but then I pointed it out to you directly that I'm not a man, yet you keep referring to me as "him/his"
> 
> That being put aside ... not the white coloured, low milk portion of my soap didn't gel. Sorry but no matter how many time you say it, it doesn't make it true. If it "gelled like a rocket" as you put it, it still would have changed colour. Quite simply, its white because it didn't gel at all.
> 
> And my recipes take a few days to unmould because I use mostly liquid oils (bastille). Not because of high water (milk).



I might not have read the part where you said you were a woman and you probably can tell I am a man because of my stupidity. I didn't know, and still don't, what a Primrose is and I apologise?
Hmm, I am not the only one who says what I have said. But from what I have read so far, I am the only one who says ALL of this wrapped up together. 
This Auntie Clara person says the same thing in "less water gets hotter".
Kevin Dunn also says the same thing who has tested this very thoroughly in his book.
They also say that like medium water, low water also goes into the gel phase. The gel phase is shorter for low water. Just because soap reaches gel phase does not mean it will all of a sudden brighten the colors and in fact doesn't even need the gel phase as proof of putting soap in the freezer.
The AMOUNT of Time (because heat is not sufficient enough in soap making) is what brightens your colors. The "length of time" is the major factor and that is the real reason why a little more water is useful.

And you must have meant "Castile" and that is a perfect example. 
And I would like to elaborate here but I don't know what your lye:water ratio is and your lye amount for xx amount of OO.
And I will tell you this though for certainty. If you stop believing in "Full water" and "Discounted water" and lower your ratio, you'll be getting that loaf out the next day and cutting! OO resists very well the saponification process and doesn't want to let go of its molecular chain.



Primrose said:


> Milk only scorches when mixing with lye, not when gelling


You just helped to prove my point
The temperature of lye water can and will get just as hot or hotter then the gel phase. Not only that it is hot for a sufficient enough time to spoil the milk so to speak. From what you say, your milk is not spoiled at gel phase. Exactly. It is the amount of time that will scorch it. If you don't think that time has anything to do with it then put your glass of milk in the microwave for about 5 minutes and drink it. I would much rather put my milk in for a minute and drink it.
And, I never was implying your milk was scorched by its color. I think I did ask though
A marsh mellow is scorched and its a beautiful golden color! 
By the way, that goats milk soap was great by the way


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## iwannasoap (Nov 15, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> "...I have to force my low water soaps to gel. They do NOT reach gel phase like a rocket ... The EXACT OPPOSITE is true of my high water soaps.... And yet you keep arguing with years and years of experience to the contrary...."
> 
> Dunn's and others' research and my observations agree precisely with your experience, JC.
> 
> New soapers ... beware. Iwanna is making a lot of forceful, repetitive statements about what this person believes to be true, but repetition and forcefulness (and belittling other people in the process) do NOT mean what this person is saying is actually correct. I can't stop this, but I can and will continue to warn.



In my reply earlier, I did not read your name. I have however done my homework earlier this morning and would like to compliment you on your work so it puzzles me what exactly your argument is and what you disagree with because it definitely looks like you know what your doing.

And, Belittling? How did I do that exactly. And even if I did, which I didn't, it also means that there could be a little more humility. Don't you think?
Like I said earlier, If I would have read your name I would have not offered any help. You don't need any.

And most importantly, I don't know exactly what you mean by this "Dunn's and others' research and my observations agree precisely with your experience, JC. "

Would you mind explaining that?
Ohh, wait a minute I think I get it. I am not saying that. 
Firstly, I made nothing of this up. What do you think I have been reading this whole time? NOthing, Thin air. Do you really think I have been making it up? Ever time one of you says no its not true and gives me a link what do you think I find on the very link itself? The very thing that they say is not true winds up being true. How about this challenge of the ghost swirl? Where do the challenge came from? Even that says what I have been saying. It is not my idea and never was. I am just putting it together in one spot the best way I can!
What kevin dunn has said and what I have learned from this thread in the past few days and have been able to put two and two together and then read further information to back that Up (Clare somebody or another) proves that I have been putting it together correctly and it really sounds to me like you haven't or either you don't want no body to take you off that pretty throne your sitting on! NOW That was a direct jab!
I have been nice this whole time and have not belittled any one but simply put my take on it used with learning and listening from this thread and other places. just because you cannot put two and two together this fast, in just a couple of days, doesn't mean that you should disagree just to be disagreeing!
Isn't that what your really doing? If fact I am so sure that I have it right now I will say this "You are good enough to know better and I believe you do!"
 Every time you get on here you really have no proof to back up what you say? When in fact I do. I'm probably wording it closer then you ever have! That is how positive I am and I thank every one else who has contributed to this thread. You have helped me become a better soaper.:evil:

For certain persons in particular, if you have made it this far, to honestly make at least one and if possible make more then one loaf.
Make each loaf with these water:lye ratios
50:50 (being careful to scrape the sides of the bowl like DeeAnna says)

40:60 and 30:70 ratios and please record your temperatures every hour
and get back on here and record your temps. If you have a laser thermometer please take it from the side of the silicone mold unless it is wooden. It would be very interesting to accumulate accurate info for every body to read and would help newer people.




SudsanSoaps said:


> I'm I understanding correctly that
> Low water gels at 200 but only reaches 140
> Medium water gels at 160 and heats itself to 160
> High water gels at 140 and heats itself to 180
> ...



Are you the same SudsnSoaps on youtube? If you are keep your kid in the videos. I think he's great and you make it a family affair. Love that stove top too. In addition, if your the same one, i read a comment talking how she didn't like your kid in the video. Totally defended you. And I like your use of color and you are definitely organized. If it is you, I think your a hard act to follow. I have actually taken your tips and watched and listened very well and have actually modeled somewhat after what you do!


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## SudsanSoaps (Nov 15, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Are you the same SudsnSoaps on youtube? If you are keep your kid in the videos. I think he's great and you make it a family affair. Love that stove top too. In addition, if your the same one, i read a comment talking how she didn't like your kid in the video. Totally defended you. And I like your use of color and you are definitely organized. If it is you, I think your a hard act to follow. I have actually taken your tips and watched and listened very well and have actually modeled somewhat after what you do!





Nope that's not me. If I had known there already was one I'd have picked a different name. I did google it first.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 15, 2017)

SudsanSoaps said:


> Nope that's not me. If I had known there already was one I'd have picked a different name. I did google it first.


Darn! I think hers is spelled SudsNsuch or something like that.
But however, with a name like that I'm sure your soaps are good and would really like to hear your experiences so I can take it in our  consideration. I promise I have said all that I'm going to say. It was a learning process for me though and I'm going to add a little more water but not for reasons that are said on here. But at least I know exactly why and not just rumors and wives tails. So, glad to meet you. Over and out and going to bed.


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## TeresaT (Nov 15, 2017)

Steve85569 said:


> I. just.wasted. 10 minutes. reading. this.
> 
> OP has mis-phrased and mis-calculated the chemistry involved in such a simple thing a making soap so as to make it so complicated only a lawyer or the OP can do it correctly.
> 
> ...



Steve wins the internet!!!!


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## cherrycoke216 (Nov 15, 2017)

https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/controlling-trace-in-cold-process-soapmaking/

the fluidity of soap batter can be also affected by your choice of oils. High or low water is not the only thing affect fluidity.

see above link, especially this part: "HOW BASE OIL CHOICES (& THEIR FATTY ACIDS) RELATE TO TRACE IN COLD PROCESS SOAPMAKING" and the chart of fatty acid which accelerates or slows trace.

Bastille is Bastardized Castille. It means high portion of olive oil (like 72%, or 50%) in the recipe.

Maybe you are confusing workable time frame with temperature. Low water means your playing time with soap batter is SHORTER. High water means you have more time to play with soap batter.


https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-.../water-discounting-cold-process-soap-how-why/

"It is possible to water discount too much.*If your solution contains too much lye and not enough water, the mixture can become*extremely*hot and very, very dangerous. In addition, the lye may not have enough water to dissolve fully. In general, the absolute highest ratio of water to lye is 1:1. This means there is equal parts lye and water in the mixture, or 50/50. At this ratio, the lye is still able to dissolve, but will be very concentrated and somewhat difficult to work with. I do not recommend this ratio of water to lye. Some advanced soapers use a ratio of 40% lye to 60% water, but this is still an extremely concentrated solution, and may be very difficult to work with."

above is direct quote from soap queen site. 


Are you confusing LYE SOLUTION temperature with SOAP BATTER temperature?


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## surf girl (Nov 15, 2017)

Do y'all think we could just let the OP continue to post, unanswered, into oblivion, and let this stupid thread die? Let's start now: no more replies to this idiocy. Seriously. Step away from the thread.


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