# What happens to the bad stuff in animal fat once saponified?



## valerieinthegallery (May 12, 2015)

I have read dozens of threads on here re: animal fats in soap and although a few have touched on this, it was never really explored much, as far as I could see. 

So, say I make some soap with lard from the grocery store. That lard came from pigs that I am assuming were raised in factory farms, where they were fed and loaded up on all sorts of nasties. From what I understand, fat loves to absorb all of that. (Toxins, antibiotics, etc.) 

Now, I know that when you have lye molecules and fat molecules and they walk off into the sunset hand in hand, the lye and the fat changes right down to the molecular level, nulling and voiding the lye molecules and the fat molecules and creating a whole new, completely different molecule. A soap molecule! Yay, soap!

So.. theoretically, the lard isn't technically lard anymore. But what about the stuff that was IN the lard? What does that turn into? Something better? Something neutral? Something just as bad? Or nothing at all? It can't just cease to exist if it was there before, right? So what is it now?


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## DeeAnna (May 12, 2015)

"... So, say I make some soap with lard from the grocery store. That lard came from pigs that I am assuming were raised in factory farms, where they were fed and loaded up on all sorts of nasties. From what I understand, fat loves to absorb all of that. (Toxins, antibiotics, etc.) ..."

Before we get into this, I really would like to know what references you are reading that show there are antibiotics and undesirable toxins in pork and specifically in lard. And further, what health risks are there from these contaminants? I'm not really sure we can address your questions if we really don't know for sure there is even a problem.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 12, 2015)

^^^ this. 

Along with those points, I also found myself wondering about what would be absorbed through the skin from using soap


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## JBot (May 12, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Before we get into this, I really would like to know what references you are reading that show there are antibiotics and undesirable toxins in pork and specifically in lard. And further, what health risks are there from these contaminants? I'm not really sure we can address your questions if we really don't know for sure there is even a problem.



I LOVE THIS.  There's so much chatter about all the "toxins" in this and that, and people just assume it's true.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but shouldn't we verify the information before we accept it as a fact?  (Side note: Facebook does not count as a "source.")  If you do have a credible source, consider whether that source might have an agenda or stand to gain financially from people turning away or toward a certain product or industry.  For example, I'd look very carefully at a study claiming that vacuum cleaners cause cancer if the study were sponsored by The Broom Association of America.  But so few people really examine the sources of articles/studies or look critically at the supporting data, let alone understand how to interpret that data.  They glance at the slick-looking chart and accept the bite-sized "facts" as gospel truth.

Also consider that unlike peer-reviewed publications, there is NO FILTER on the internet.  People can put up a professional-looking website that says any kind of nonsense you can think of.  And remember that testimonials are not data!

While we're at it, what does "toxin" mean, anyway?  People CONSTANTLY misuse this term as a catch-all for Things That Are Yucky and Might Be Bad For You.  Drives me bonkers.

Please note: this is not directed at Valerie specifically, since I have no idea what kind of research she's done.  Maybe she's been very thorough.  I simply appreciate DeeAnna's request for references, which so few people seem to stop and think about.


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## Seawolfe (May 12, 2015)

Plants are well known ecological detoxifiers, absorbing atmospheric pollutants, hydrocarbons and heavy metals amoung other things. I am not a botanist, but I will assume some of that is sequestered in their lipids, from which oils and butters are extracted. May as well worry the same about them, more really since no continental air is really "clean".


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## JayJay (May 12, 2015)

valerieinthegallery said:


> I have read dozens of threads on here re: animal fats in soap and although a few have touched on this, it was never really explored much, as far as I could see.
> 
> So, say I make some soap with lard from the grocery store. That lard came from pigs that I am assuming were raised in factory farms, where they were fed and loaded up on all sorts of nasties. From what I understand, fat loves to absorb all of that. (Toxins, antibiotics, etc.)
> 
> ...



I hear your concern and I think that you raise a legitimate question. It is true that factory farmed animals are fed a constant supply of antibiotics and hormones. I think that is is reasonable to wonder how much of that is contained in the animal's fat and what happens to that "extra" stuff after it has turned to soap. I get the question but I have no answer for you. 

I am interested in what other people can find on the topic, and I wish I had time to do some research myself.


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## lenarenee (May 12, 2015)

Seawolfe said:


> Plants are well known ecological detoxifiers, absorbing atmospheric pollutants, hydrocarbons and heavy metals amoung other things. I am not a botanist, but I will assume some of that is sequestered in their lipids, from which oils and butters are extracted. May as well worry the same about them, more really since no continental air is really "clean".




I had no idea!  I've always heard about "clean air" plants, and trees that clean the air...but that's as far as my head went. Guess I thought their respiration of carbon dioxide magically cleaned the air!

Valerie, your thoughts are following in my footsteps; I had those same concerns but didn't find any definitive answers. I was going crazy trying to find truthful answers, but the search just consumed too many hours.

For me, it comes down to this. Word on the 'net is skin absorbs _everything_, but my pharmacist and doctor tell me otherwise. The skin is designed to help keep many things out. Some molecules are too big to be absorbed. The transdermal medications (patches) are made with a chemical that helps the medicine be absorbed. 

However, some things _are_ absorbed. I prefer my homemade soap to syndets because of the suspicions of some of their ingredients.

And most of all, I eat meat, and usually a slice of bacon with every breakfast. I'd like to eat 3 or 4 slices, but don't. I think there's more potential to be affected by toxins in pork fat with the ingestion of that bacon, far more than lard in my soap. 

So now Seawolfe tells us even vegetables aren't as clean as we thought!  Looks like we gotta pick our poison. (or at least, the ways we choose to lesson our poisons)

Off topic here, but.....is it a bad sign when your fortune cookie doesn't have a fortune in it? :think:


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## JayJay (May 12, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> ^^^ this.
> 
> Along with those points, I also found myself wondering about what would be absorbed through the skin from using soap



 I am hoping that we don't absorb much. And I am also assuming that our bodies can handle most "toxins" we encounter. So I am not personally worried. 

But just like our Vegan Soap thread,people sometimes want to avoid certain things in their soap just because they want to avoid them. That's really one of the big advantages to making one's own soap. We can include the ingredients that we like and exclude the ingredients that we don't like....for whatever reason.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 12, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> "... So, say I make some soap with lard from the grocery store. That lard came from pigs that I am assuming were raised in factory farms, where they were fed and loaded up on all sorts of nasties. From what I understand, fat loves to absorb all of that. (Toxins, antibiotics, etc.) ..."
> 
> Before we get into this, I really would like to know what references you are reading that show there are antibiotics and undesirable toxins in pork and specifically in lard. And further, what health risks are there from these contaminants? I'm not really sure we can address your questions if we really don't know for sure there is even a problem.



I haven't read all the other replies yet, but I first wanted to clarify my position in case it seemed I had an agenda. I have no agenda. I want to use lard. I HAVE used lard. Admittedly, I don't feel AWESOME about using it, and part of getting myself to the point where I do is to ruminate on the things about it that are troubling me, which is why I asked this question. It is simply something that has been on my mind, and something I would like to explore further before I go open up the 4 pound tub of lard that is sitting on my kitchen table right now as I type this. 

As for sources, it is pretty well-documented how pigs in factory farms live, what they are fed, etc. It's not like it's a big secret. I don't think any one of us here, regardless of how much we love lard, could ever say that we love the lives these pigs live. I'm not talking about the farm down the street; I'm talking about factory farms. I'm not saying I'm against killing them for food; but I am against the lives they live before we do it. 

From what I read, a lot of things get stored up in fat, so because I haven't dug up any sources, let's just say that THEORETICALLY, if there were things in their bodies that were less than desirable, there might be traces of that in their fat - hormones, antibiotics, things that are mixed into their food.. even their cortisol and adrenaline that is released as they are lined up for slaughter. 

This is the point where I should say that I am not a vegetarian. I eat meat. I eat pig meat. I make a GREAT loaded baked potato soup which involves sauteing garlic and onions in bacon fat. NONE of this is based on an agenda. I just like to know the ins and outs of everything that I am interested in. And I am interested in this. So THEORETICALLY, if there are undesirable things in a  pig's body that get absorbed by fatty tissue, I am just wonder how saponification deals with those particles. That's all. 

Off to read the rest of the comments. 

I'm sorry if I opened a can of worms and got people upset. I just like to know stuff.


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## lionprincess00 (May 12, 2015)

I am more concerned with the ingestion of said perceived dangerous things in our supplies of food than I am slathering briefly onto my skin and rinsing off...which is well before a massive amount is absorbed (unlike the intestinal tract). I think there's plenty to worry about, but I save the concern for ingestion more so than the small amount of leftover Superfat (which is split fairly amongst the ingredients) that is rubbed onto intact skin, very briefly, and then washed off. 
Not getting into the debate of gmo's or any other thing, but the soap factor (and saponifying in a lye bath) is fairly benign compared to daily ingestion to me...and veggies to me are as worrisome as the rest (with regard to whether or not things are truly safe and healthy...).


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## lionprincess00 (May 12, 2015)

valerieinthegallery said:


> I haven't read all the other replies yet, but I first wanted to clarify my position in case it seemed I had an agenda. I have no agenda. I want to use lard. I HAVE used lard. Admittedly, I don't feel AWESOME about using it, and part of getting myself to the point where I do is to pontificate on the things about it that are troubling me, which is why I asked this question. It is simply something that has been on my mind, and something I would like to explore further before I go open up the 4 pound jug of lard that is sitting on my kitchen table right now as I type this.
> 
> As for sources, it is pretty well-documented how pigs in factory farms live, what they are fed, etc. It's not like it's a big secret. I don't think any one of us here, regardless of how much we love lard, could ever say that we love the lives these pigs have. I'm not talking about the farm down the street; I'm talking about factory farms. I'm not saying I'm against killing them for food; but I am against the lives they live before we do it.
> 
> ...



an honest and thoughtful concern. Most of us here will fully respect this and empathize with it. I'm greatly interested in everyone's opinion of it as well, including yours


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## valerieinthegallery (May 12, 2015)

JBot said:


> I LOVE THIS.  There's so much chatter about all the "toxins" in this and that, and people just assume it's true.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but shouldn't we verify the information before we accept it as a fact?  (Side note: Facebook does not count as a "source.")  If you do have a credible source, consider whether that source might have an agenda or stand to gain financially from people turning away or toward a certain product or industry.  For example, I'd look very carefully at a study claiming that vacuum cleaners cause cancer if the study were sponsored by The Broom Association of America.  But so few people really examine the sources of articles/studies or look critically at the supporting data, let alone understand how to interpret that data.  They glance at the slick-looking chart and accept the bite-sized "facts" as gospel truth.
> 
> Also consider that unlike peer-reviewed publications, there is NO FILTER on the internet.  People can put up a professional-looking website that says any kind of nonsense you can think of.  And remember that testimonials are not data!
> 
> ...



haha - thank you for the note at the end that you weren't directing that at me specifically, because I am not one of those people you speak of. LOL.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 12, 2015)

lenarenee said:


> I had no idea!  I've always heard about "clean air" plants, and trees that clean the air...but that's as far as my head went. Guess I thought their respiration of carbon dioxide magically cleaned the air!
> 
> Valerie, your thoughts are following in my footsteps; I had those same concerns but didn't find any definitive answers. I was going crazy trying to find truthful answers, but the search just consumed too many hours.
> 
> ...



Oh, I think you're right about that! (About ingesting more bad stuff in the eating of the pig than in the using of soap made from its fat!) 

Interesting too about skin and its absorption of the substances put onto it. I will be looking more into that. 

Can you tell my brain never rests?


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## valerieinthegallery (May 12, 2015)

Seawolfe said:


> Plants are well known ecological detoxifiers, absorbing atmospheric pollutants, hydrocarbons and heavy metals amoung other things. I am not a botanist, but I will assume some of that is sequestered in their lipids, from which oils and butters are extracted. May as well worry the same about them, more really since no continental air is really "clean".



Very VERY interesting stuff! Can't wait to learn more about this, too! Thank you for contributing this info!


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## valerieinthegallery (May 12, 2015)

JayJay said:


> I hear your concern and I think that you raise a legitimate question. It is true that factory farmed animals are fed a constant supply of antibiotics and hormones. I think that is is reasonable to wonder how much of that is contained in the animal's fat and what happens to that "extra" stuff after it has turned to soap. I get the question but I have no answer for you.
> 
> I am interested in what other people can find on the topic, and I wish I had time to do some research myself.



Thank you for this very rational, thoughtful response. It makes me feel a bit less crazy.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 12, 2015)

JayJay said:


> But just like our Vegan Soap thread,people sometimes want to avoid certain things in their soap just because they want to avoid them. That's really one of the big advantages to making one's own soap. We can include the ingredients that we like and exclude the ingredients that we don't like....for whatever reason.



True - the problem lies in not knowing whether or not you like something. I want to use lard SO bad, but there are some things I need to work out first, before I feel comfortable doing it. Cognitive dissonance is not an option for me.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 12, 2015)

lionprincess00 said:


> I am more concerned with the ingestion of said perceived dangerous things in our supplies of food than I am slathering briefly onto my skin and rinsing off...which is well before a massive amount is absorbed (unlike the intestinal tract). I think there's plenty to worry about, but I save the concern for ingestion more so than the small amount of leftover Superfat (which is split fairly amongst the ingredients) that is rubbed onto intact skin, very briefly, and then washed off.
> Not getting into the debate of gmo's or any other thing, but the soap factor (and saponifying in a lye bath) is fairly benign compared to daily ingestion to me...and veggies to me are as worrisome as the rest (with regard to whether or not things are truly safe and healthy...).



Re: the superfat issue, I do HP exclusively, using only a 0.5-1.0% superfat during the cook and then adding a 5% superfat at the end with a butter. So if there was ANY animal fat left over after the cook, it would really be a very miniscule amount. 

Thanks for your input.


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## lionprincess00 (May 12, 2015)

valerieinthegallery said:


> Re: the superfat issue, I do HP exclusively, using only a 0.5-1.0% superfat during the cook and then adding a 5% superfat at the end with a butter. So if there was ANY animal fat left over after the cook, it would really be a very miniscule amount.
> 
> Thanks for your input.



Well, thank you too! You know, it's a fine line between believing big business and being led blindly into the world of dangerous substances, and thinking it's all deadly and avoiding every unproven hazard.

There's a happy medium between danger and safety, and most people go from one extreme (oh, you're over reacting!) To the other extreme (it's all going to kill you!!!). It benefits us to raise concern, question, and _think_ on things without believing any one person or entity blindly. So thank you for your thoughtful concern


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## jules92207 (May 12, 2015)

I find all these thoughts very interesting and am enjoying reading this thread, it's a valid thought to start discussion on and makes me want to dig deeper into the facts, both the animal fat and the plants.


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## DeeAnna (May 12, 2015)

I just want to know what Valerie is basing her view "...they were fed and loaded up on all sorts of nasties...." I don't know on what her point of view is based, and I'd seriously like to know, so I'm asking about information sources. I look forward to reading more about the basis for her viewpoint and will respond with pleasure.


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## JayJay (May 12, 2015)

valerieinthegallery said:


> True - the problem lies in not knowing whether or not you like something. I want to use lard SO bad, but there are some things I need to work out first, before I feel comfortable doing it. Cognitive dissonance is not an option for me.




Totally. Soaping allows for customization. I am guessing that most people make their soaps according to what they believe is best for them. Otherwise we would  all just go to the grocery store (those of us who have access) and buy some cheap soap.

 It seems that certain reasons for including and excluding ingredients may be more controversial than others on this forum at the moment. (e.g. Reaction to synthetic detergents vs. toxin avoidance). I have no judgements. 

It looks like you hit a few nerves with your question because we do not enter discussions with the same underlying assumptions. Nevertheless, your original question as I understood it, was about unsaponifiables in lard. It would be nice if we could just discuss that regardless of whether or not people think that you should be concerned by what's in your soap. Your concerns and preferences are yours and I respect that. 

P.S. I love lard in my soap.


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## nebetmiw (May 12, 2015)

Well as some one that raises pigs plus other livestock.  There's strick regulation on what can be used on meat animals. They're not fed a bunch of meds. Because it's too dang costly to the farmer. All meat livestock has to be med free for a month or more before it can be processed. Yes blood tests are done to make sure.     
Now as far as lard goes. It is cooked to be made . So all the heating it goes through would clean alot of nasties if there were any.   We process our own pigs and lard here
 Hubby grew up doing it.


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## vyadha (May 13, 2015)

I would love to see some in depth studies on what is suspended in animal fat. I cant imagine an organization willing to pay for a study that actually measures how many micrograms of antibiotics, growth hormones and vaccines are in a kilogram of animal fat. 

Along with that, which of these foreign substances breakdown at common cooking and rendering temperatures and which ones don't.

Also, wouldn't the big factory farms try to reuse any of those substances (render and filter the lard) if they were present in any significant amounts?

I mostly render my own lard and tallow from animals Ive raised or hunted so Im not too concerned. And as nebetmiw pointed out, there are a lots of regulations that individuals like myself are unaware of.

Still, I buy lard at Vons when Im out of the wild stuff.


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## JayJay (May 13, 2015)

nebetmiw said:


> Well as some one that raises pigs plus other livestock.  There's strick regulation on what can be used on meat animals. They're not fed a bunch of meds. Because it's too dang costly to the farmer. All meat livestock has to be med free for a month or more before it can be processed. Yes blood tests are done to make sure.
> Now as far as lard goes. It is cooked to be made . So all the heating it goes through would clean alot of nasties if there were any.   We process our own pigs and lard here
> Hubby grew up doing it.



That's good to hear.  Thanks for sharing.  It's good to hear from people with actual experience. Your information actually is making me want to look into this more to clarify my understanding. 

I know a family that supplies chickens to a major  meat company.  She told me that they put antibiotics in the water supply daily to keep the chickens alive. I am not sure whether their operation would qualify as a factory farm, but I know that thousands of chickens are kept inside of a structure.   She invited me for a visit, but I was not up for it. I don't like animal smells.

I'm not a farmer and I haven't done any research, but I thought that antibiotics  were an industry standard (and a necessity) in factory farms. I have heard several doctors and researchers refer to the public health "problem" in the U.S. of over use of antibiotics in people and in livestock. I know a small farmer who uses no antibiotics in his food or water supply.  He talks about their use elsewhere.  It has been referred to so many times that I am just taking it as fact. But I certainly don't know for sure.


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## galaxyMLP (May 13, 2015)

vyadha said:


> I would love to see some in depth studies on what is suspended in animal fat. I cant imagine an organization willing to pay for a study that actually measures how many micrograms of antibiotics, growth hormones and vaccines are in a kilogram of animal fat.
> 
> Along with that, which of these foreign substances breakdown at common cooking and rendering temperatures and which ones don't.
> 
> Also, wouldn't the big factory farms try to reuse any of those substances (render and filter the lard) if they were present in any significant amounts?



Even if you wanted to, you can see vaccines. Vaccines are not a chemical. They are inactivated viruses that cause the body to produce its own antibodies against future viruses of the same kind so when the animal comes in contact with it, the body already knows how to fight it. Antibodies of all kinds are naturally present and they are no different from the ones produced from a vaccine. The inactivated viruses are quickly flushed from the system after vaccination.

I don't think recovery of any of the other substances would be in nearly high enough amount to even begin to cover the costs for extractions. 

Personally the only thing I worry about are the hormones, and only for consumption. 

In plants, I would be more concerned about a plant picking up some kind of heavy metal from a contaminated environment than anything else.

This is definitely something thought provoking and interesting.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

Here are a few links that discuss what pigs ingest in factory farms. There are way too many links to go through them all - I picked the first few that seemed low on agenga/high on information. 

http://www.buedelmeatup.com/2013/06/04/antibiotics-pork-production/
http://www.porkgateway.org/FileLibrary/PIGLibrary/Factsheets/a6771v1-0.pdf
http://www.motherjones.com/tom-phil...s-smithfield-buy-could-slightly-clean-us-pork
https://www.animallaw.info/article/...n-factory-farm-conditions-could-improve-human

Jay Jay said something about how we don't all enter into discussions with the same underlying assumptions and I  guess that's true, because I entered in this conversation thinking that we all pretty much agree what happens at a factory farm. I was kind of shocked to learn that that isn't true. There are SO many sources of non-biased information out there; it would be impossible to not be exposed to it. As for the atrocities that take place, just because a company with an agenda is the one who shoots the real-life footage doesn't make that footage not true. But for this particular conversation, I think we are best suited to keeping focused on "What does the fat absorb from the pig's body and how is it affected by saponification?" (Both what it ingests and also its own hormones)


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

nebetmiw said:


> Well as some one that raises pigs plus other livestock.  There's strick regulation on what can be used on meat animals. They're not fed a bunch of meds. Because it's too dang costly to the farmer. All meat livestock has to be med free for a month or more before it can be processed. Yes blood tests are done to make sure.
> Now as far as lard goes. It is cooked to be made . So all the heating it goes through would clean alot of nasties if there were any.   We process our own pigs and lard here
> Hubby grew up doing it.



Costly to a small farmer; probably not to a major manufacturer. 

If we lived closer, I would just buy my lard from you and be done with it! 

(Something tells me that your farm/processing is NOT the kind I am discussing here. Unless you sell millions of pounds of lard in little blue buckets at Walmarts around the world.)


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## vyadha (May 13, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> Even if you wanted to, you can see vaccines. Vaccines are not a chemical. They are inactivated viruses that cause the body to produce its own antibodies against future viruses of the same kind so when the animal comes in contact with it, the body already knows how to fight it. Antibodies of all kinds are naturally present and they are no different from the ones produced from a vaccine. The inactivated viruses are quickly flushed from the system after vaccination.
> 
> I don't think recovery of any of the other substances would be in nearly high enough amount to even begin to cover the costs for extractions.
> 
> ...



Exactly my point. The vaccines are gone, the antibiotics are in such a minute amount they have no measurable effect and maybe the hormones are lingering. 

Still, Id like to see a solid study.


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## TVivian (May 13, 2015)

This is probably a pointless comment on this thread, but here is what I wonder daily when I read Facebook or am bombarded by articles about "toxins" "hormones" "air pollution" "water pollution" "chemicals, pesticides, cancer, GMO's etc... Why does our average life expectancy keep going up? If everything around us is so dangerous, wouldn't we all be dying younger and younger? Life expectancy for people in the early 1900's was around 50 years of age and that was when everything people ate, drank, and breathed was "clean" 

We all worry too much I think.


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## girlishcharm2004 (May 13, 2015)

Here's how I see it.  There are two points of view why one would choose to use or not to use said lard.  1. is for the physical contaminants in it, and 2. is for the principle behind it.  

The kidneys and liver are responsible for metabolizing toxins and waste. The fat is where vitamins and nutrients are stored.  When it comes to factory farms, I think it's a matter of a lack of nutritional quality versus a storage of toxic waste.  That said, I still wouldn't buy grocery store lard because *my* local grocery stores carry lard with BHT in it which is something I personally wish to avoid (not to mention it's banned in several countries).

The second point is the principle behind the matter.  Do you want to support what those farms are doing to animals? If you want to avoid both issues, then your solution is to choose a different source of lard and your conscience can be at peace.


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## Susie (May 13, 2015)

I am only addressing the skin absorption issue, as I have no pertinent info on the other issues that has not already been mentioned. 

Skin's PRIMARY job is to keep bad stuff out of our bodies.  The multiple layers of dead cells are meant to trap and carry away things that do not belong inside of us.  This lowers my concern about BHT/etc quite a bit.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

Susie said:


> Skin's PRIMARY job is to keep bad stuff out of our bodies.



And also to cover up our creepy skeletons. I mean, otherwise, we'd all look like that guy from Hellraiser. :Kitten Love: 

On a serious note, I appreciate all the thoughtful replies. 

I am having a really hard time formulating a recipe that isn't drying to my skin, and I am sick of being itchy. I have gone as high as I can with olive oil as I can't stand the smell of it and I dislike the long cure times for it to get hard, even with HP. I think I am going to try out another lard recipe today - that might be helpful on all counts.


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## shunt2011 (May 13, 2015)

valerieinthegallery said:


> And also to cover up our creepy skeletons. I mean, otherwise, we'd all look like that guy from Hellraiser. :Kitten Love:
> 
> On a serious note, I appreciate all the thoughtful replies.
> 
> I am having a really hard time formulating a recipe that isn't drying to my skin, and I am sick of being itchy. I have gone as high as I can with olive oil as I can't stand the smell of it and I dislike the long cure times for it to get hard, even with HP. I think I am going to try out another lard recipe today - that might be helpful on all counts.


 
Try a high lard soap.  You will be pleasantly surprised at how conditioning it is to your skin.   I make mostly vegetable oil based soaps but do love my lard too.


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## pamielynn (May 13, 2015)

People just don't give our skin enough credit for doing it's job 
I am in the camp that pretty much nothing in soap gets through to the vascular system and believe that IF there were any dangerous "toxins" in the raw ingredients, the soapmaker would shoulder the risk through inhalation.

But, it is always good to question. If humans didn't question the world around us, we'd still be throwing rocks at the moon.


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## LBussy (May 13, 2015)

Hold a pill of penicillin.

Take a pill of penicillin

Which one gets into your bloodstream?

The skin is an amazing barrier.  It protects us every day.  You might scream and yell if traces of solvents are found in pomace olive oil, yet you walk through the exhaust of a car in a parking lot and you inhale far more dangerous solvents.

Arguments like this start with the assumptions that:

These chemicals survive the processing to get to you
The levels are somehow significant
Your skin will absorb them magically
I think the burden of proof is on the person trying to convince someone that there is danger, not the other way around when the body of evidence says there are no health risks.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Hold a pill of penicillin.
> 
> Take a pill of penicillin
> 
> ...



I am curious as to what the levels of these substances are in the fat of animals and yes, I am curious as to how those things interact with our skin, but mostly, I just want to know, on a scientific level, what actually HAPPENS to the substances in fat that aren't pure fat when the fat saponifies. SOMETHING happens to whatever trace amounts of "other" stuff that is in fat, and I just want to know what that something is. 

I think my question is much simpler than how I am presenting it. 

I am simply wondering.. if there is something there, ANYTHING, when the fat is saponified, where does that something go? What molecular shape does it take? What does it become?

edited to add: Also, I didn't mean to start an argument. That was merely social ineptitude on my part, as it never occured to me that my questions might upset people. And I am not out to "prove" anything, as it is painfully obvious that I don't have all the facts for which to prove anything to begin with. It's the facts I am seeking, not proving anything in particular.. I have no agenda. I am not out to quantify levels of "badness" or what should be concerning and what shouldn't. I just want to know where it GOES. LOL.


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## Susie (May 13, 2015)

I am a nurse, I have a good friend that is a compounding pharmacist that makes many transdermal medications.  The secret to getting meds through the skin is Emu oil.  It is the only thing they can find to carry larger molecules through the skin.  It also causes the vegan group to froth at the mouth.  Oh, well.  They have the choice not to use those meds.  I do tell people who make their own body products not to use Emu oil, though, as you really don't want all that stuff in your system. 

The question, I think, should not so much be, "Where does all the bad stuff go?", but more, "Is there bad stuff still in that lard to worry about?"  Which, to me, is a more pertinent question.  Because I have spent the best part of two days trying to find some sort of proof that bad stuff actually survives the rendering and filtering process to even end up in the lard.  And I have yet to find one credible source that says that it does.  Just more fear mongers mongering fear.  I will keep looking, though, because this issue probably needs to be addressed here somewhere so we all have an answer we can base decisions on.  

If you don't like olive oil, and you have dry skin, you're going to adore lard soaps.  I was using a bar with 55% lard day before yesterday, then swapped to the 80% lard yesterday, and I remembered just how awesome the high lard soaps are.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

Susie said:


> I am a nurse, I have a good friend that is a compounding pharmacist that makes many transdermal medications.  The secret to getting meds through the skin is Emu oil.  It is the only thing they can find to carry larger molecules through the skin.  It also causes the vegan group to froth at the mouth.  Oh, well.  They have the choice not to use those meds.  I do tell people who make their own body products not to use Emu oil, though, as you really don't want all that stuff in your system.
> 
> The question, I think, should not so much be, "Where does all the bad stuff go?", but more, "Is there bad stuff still in that lard to worry about?"  Which, to me, is a more pertinent question.  Because I have spent the best part of two days trying to find some sort of proof that bad stuff actually survives the rendering and filtering process to even end up in the lard.  And I have yet to find one credible source that says that it does.  Just more fear mongers mongering fear.  I will keep looking, though, because this issue probably needs to be addressed here somewhere so we all have an answer we can base decisions on.
> 
> If you don't like olive oil, and you have dry skin, you're going to adore lard soaps.  I was using a bar with 55% lard day before yesterday, then swapped to the 80% lard yesterday, and I remembered just how awesome the high lard soaps are.



ok.. our questions are similar, framed a bit differently. But I can see the subtle difference. That is all I am wondering as well. Is there anything there by the time the animal is slaughtered? And if there is, how does saponification affect it scientifically speaking? 

There might not be an acceptable, accurate answer to this that we can find and in that case, I guess I will have to let it go. It's just something I wonder about, working with the knowledge that fat absorbs things in the body. 

Interesting tidbit about the emu oil. I don't think I would ever find myself drawn to using that particular oil, but it's good to know!

Years ago, I was in Edgecomb, Maine and I was driving on a back road and all of a sudden this THING runs out in front of my car and I slammed on my brakes as I watched it run into the field on the other side. I just sat there like "What the heck WAS that?! A tiny black OSTRICH??"

Turns out that there used to an emu farm there and a few years prior, they had gotten loose and some of them were still living in the area - feral emus! 

I digress.

I haven't decided what % to do the lard soap yet. Am making it shortly, so I guess I should figure it out. Was going to start out around 60%.


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## Obsidian (May 13, 2015)

That sounds like a big foot sighting, what was that weird thing running across the road lol. 

I don't think anyone really knows what non oil contaminates turn into once its been saponified. We don't even really know what some of the additives we purposely put into soap turn in. I mean, what happens to different herbal teas or veggies? I know thats not the same as antibiotic residue but you know what I mean.

I'd still rather use handmade soap made with polluted animals and veggy oils then the chemical cocktail that is commercial bath and body washes.


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## new12soap (May 13, 2015)

Food animals are not fed or injected with poison. Antibiotics and hormones are water soluble, not fat soluble. If they were still present in the animal, they would be rendered out with the water and not remain in the finished product.

There are also different classification of animal fats. Those designated for human consumption (food grade) are rigorously tested for any contaminants and if any are found, the fat is discarded.

In other words, it is very highly unlikely that commercial lard contains any of the stuff you are concerned about.

However, to get back to your question, IF the fat did somehow contain a molecule or two of something you didn't want, and IF that molecule did survive the rendering process and the testing, and IF it somehow made it into your soap pot, I would guess (and this is really just a guess) that the lye would shred those little molecules to bits and break them down into harmless atoms. Most of those additives are acidic, and acid + alkaline (lye) usually results in a salt and some leftover water.

I also think that another poster brought up an excellent point about if there are indeed any unwanted ingredients stored in the fats that can survive the process, then we need to ask the same question of all plant oils, too. While they are not given antibiotics or growth hormones they are treated with pesticides (yes, even organic farming uses pesticides), they process the same polluted air and water.

Again, I think most of these additives are water soluble and would not survive the process it takes to get them to the market shelf, but if they did I am guessing the lye would just turn it into salt.

JM2C


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> That sounds like a big foot sighting, what was that weird thing running across the road lol.
> 
> I don't think anyone really knows what non oil contaminates turn into once its been saponified. We don't even really know what some of the additives we purposely put into soap turn in. I mean, what happens to different herbal teas or veggies? I know thats not the same as antibiotic residue but you know what I mean.
> 
> I'd still rather use handmade soap made with polluted animals and veggy oils then the chemical cocktail that is commercial bath and body washes.



Actually, when I was lying in bed last night thinking about this, I also started thinking about the additives that we use, etc. and how those are changed, if they are. So yes, it's definitely along the same vein. 

And I agree that any homemade soap, regardless of oils used, HAS to be better than mass-produced "soap". 



new12soap said:


> Food animals are not fed or injected with poison. Antibiotics and hormones are water soluble, not fat soluble. If they were still present in the animal, they would be rendered out with the water and not remain in the finished product.
> 
> There are also different classification of animal fats. Those designated for human consumption (food grade) are rigorously tested for any contaminants and if any are found, the fat is discarded.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this insight - interesting about fat soluble vs. water soluble. It seems that I have read over and over again that things get stored in fat (not just in pigs, but in any mammal), so I will have to look into where I have read that and what else they say about it, just to refresh my memory.


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## LBussy (May 13, 2015)

Aggree with DeeAnna, agree with Valerie - but the question does start out with a presupposition that there are nasties there. 

*IF* there are "nasties", the disposition of them would necessarily be dependant upon what we are talking about.  There's a better than fair chance that a good many things, even if not saponified directly, would be significantly denatured by the causting environment that applies to all of the ingredients in CP.  In HP, even for the superfat, we are talking about a highly alkaline environment, and let's not discount the heat too.

So, I do think we need to start with "what nasties' what's your source" and go from there, even if it's just casual musings.

Don't get me wrong, I start more than my share of "I was thinking about ... " threads.  :shh:

ETA:  I missed new12soaps's comments - said much better than I did.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

Agreed. I guess I just worded it how I was thinking about it, based on my own knowledge and beliefs about it. (Which I do think are accurate, in terms of what they are fed/given while raised for food, but I will secede that I don't necessarily know for sure that any of that stays behind in their fat). 

In light of that, I would like to let the  mods know that it's ok if they want to edit my thread title to something more along the lines of "What happens to contaminants in oils/fats during saponification?" That sounds more in line of what we are discussing and is less shocking for people using the search feature to get info on animal oils.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 13, 2015)

On a wider thought from Lee's comment, we often talk about 'unsaponifiables' as if they are the untouchables and lye is Al Capone. But while many things do not become soap when mixed with lye, I imagine something does indeed happen. 

We know that very little goodness is likely to survive some time with Lye Capone,  but what does that chemical equation look like? I think that is where Valerie was aiming - if there is some PbO2 (not sure if that exists) in the fat, what does PbO2 + NaOH = ?


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> On a wider thought from Lee's comment, we often talk about 'unsaponifiables' as if they are the untouchables and lye is Al Capone. But while many things do not become soap when mixed with lye, I imagine something does indeed happen.
> 
> We know that very little goodness is likely to survive some time with Lye Capone,  but what does that chemical equation look like? I think that is where Valerie was aiming - if there is some PbO2 (not sure if that exists) in the fat, what does PbO2 + NaOH = ?



That is *exactly* what I was getting at! My question came across as challenging or judging or something, I think. When really, it had nothing to do with any of that. 

Now I'm wondering what PbO2 is. Surely, it exists somewhere. Jotting that down on my "To Research" list  

Lye Capone. :razz:


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

It's Lead Dioxide.


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## nebetmiw (May 13, 2015)

I could go more into this but I have one statement.  Soap is a Wash off product. It does not stay on long enough for any long lasting effect.   To make Lard pig fat is heated and melted for a bit of time to get rid of water. We then heat it again to melt it and then hit it with LYE.  STOP worrying about nothing.

The main reason we all make soap is to get away from the detergents in store bought plus use scents we like and other stuff.  I personally will NOT use Olive Oil on my skin. It makes me itchy. I make a lard, co, PO and safflower oil soap. Another is lard. co and almond.  I use Coconut milk or our animal milk here either cow or goat. I have many people using my soap from real dry skin to me who has more oil than I care to admit. We have real hard water with high PH and high humidity here. Some of my people have softeners on their water lines and are in lower humidity area.  Right now we are very dry here with very hot dry winds.  All this effects skin and soap making and how it works on your skin. I have seemed to have found one good formula for our local. It took me a few years and I still play with changing liquid oils a bit but lard and CO are my main stays with milk.  

Oh I used to use store bought lard for a few years till we got our pigs.  Hubby and BIL grew up on a family farm. Me I did not but I have talked to factory farmers. I know what alot of cows and pigs are fed. I will not go there but FDA has made alot of changes in recent years. But again soap is not ingested and just a wash off product.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

nebetmiw said:


> I could go more into this but I have one statement.  Soap is a Wash off product. It does not stay on long enough for any long lasting effect.   To make Lard pig fat is heated and melted for a bit of time to get rid of water. We then heat it again to melt it and then hit it with LYE.  STOP worrying about nothing.



Oh, goodness gracious. I think it's time for me to shut  my mouth, because apparently I am NOT being very efficacious (shout out to Mr. Gentleman!) in my communication. 

I am not worried whatsoever about putting lard on my skin. In any way, shape or form. For any reason.


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## nebetmiw (May 13, 2015)

valerieinthegallery said:


> Oh, goodness gracious. I think it's time for me to shut  my mouth, because apparently I am NOT being very efficacious (shout out to Mr. Gentleman!) in my communication.
> 
> I am not worried whatsoever about putting lard on my skin. In any way, shape or form. For any reason.



I was not really posting toward you Val.  Just in general. We tend to have to many worriers. Discussion is good.  Sorry if it seemed I was talking it down.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

nebetmiw said:


> I was not really posting toward you Val.  Just in general. We tend to have to many worriers. Discussion is good.  Sorry if it seemed I was talking it down.



Whew. lol. That makes me feel better.

Sometimes communication is challenging for me. I try to articulate what I am thinking but it gets muddled or something, because a lot of times, I feel like people aren't getting what I am trying to say. Sorry I assumed.


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## lenarenee (May 13, 2015)

girlishcharm2004 said:


> Here's how I see it. There are two points of view why one would choose to use or not to use said lard. 1. is for the physical contaminants in it, and 2. is for the principle behind it.
> 
> The kidneys and liver are responsible for metabolizing toxins and waste. The fat is where vitamins and nutrients are stored. When it comes to factory farms, I think it's a matter of a lack of nutritional quality versus a storage of toxic waste. That said, I still wouldn't buy grocery store lard because *my* local grocery stores carry lard with BHT in it which is something I personally wish to avoid (not to mention it's banned in several countries).
> 
> The second point is the principle behind the matter. Do you want to support what those farms are doing to animals? If you want to avoid both issues, then your solution is to choose a different source of lard and your conscience can be at peace.


 

Bht concerned me as well; I read that bht isn't absorbed far enough into the skin to for it to enter the body. What have you learned?

The lard I have contains bht, but I use it. However, I will say that I keep an uncolored, unscented, bastille bar on hand (80% organic Costco olive oil, co, and castor) for "special" people like my friend with cancer, and another who stayed with us while undergoing fertility treatments in La Jolla.  That way I know with absolute positivity they are as "pure" as possible. 

I'm not afraid to use my lard soap, but I would greatly prefer the lard I use be as "clean" as possible. If it weren't cost prohibitive, I would.


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## lenarenee (May 13, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> On a wider thought from Lee's comment, we often talk about 'unsaponifiables' as if they are the untouchables and lye is Al Capone. But while many things do not become soap when mixed with lye, I imagine something does indeed happen.
> 
> We know that very little goodness is likely to survive some time with Lye Capone, but what does that chemical equation look like? I think that is where Valerie was aiming - if there is some PbO2 (not sure if that exists) in the fat, what does PbO2 + NaOH = ?


 
Uh, yeah. But my assumption was that lye would most likely kill most of the "bad guys", but what it lye interacting with "abc" actually makes a more potent bad guy??

Well, I've been using my high lard soap for 6 months now, and I still have all of the skin and haven't died yet.


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## valerieinthegallery (May 13, 2015)

lenarenee said:


> Well, I've been using my high lard soap for 6 months now, and I still have all of the skin and haven't died yet.



Well, that's heartening.


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## lenarenee (May 13, 2015)

Btw Valerie, before I found a source for tallow, I bought grass fed organic tallow from ebay. If you trust the farmer, that's the purest form of animal animal fat you can get. It's not as conditioning as lard, but its wonderful in its own right. I actually prefer its lather over lard. (Tallow has some qualities that coconut oil has, so I use about 2% less co when I use tallow)The recipe I used was 20% lard, 5%castor, 12 co, and the rest was grass fed tallow.  It's my favorite shower bar. But for handwashing (20x a day)....I love this what this 100% lard bar that cmzha sent me does!

Something for you to think about. To make a tallow recipe more conditioning, you could add 10% shea, or 15% avocado. (they have the highest amount of non-saponifiables.

Hmmm....come to think of it I only have one bar of tallow soap left and two lbs of grass fed tallow in the freezer.....:grin:


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## lenarenee (May 13, 2015)

nebetmiw said:


> Well as some one that raises pigs plus other livestock. There's strick regulation on what can be used on meat animals. They're not fed a bunch of meds. Because it's too dang costly to the farmer. All meat livestock has to be med free for a month or more before it can be processed. Yes blood tests are done to make sure.
> Now as far as lard goes. It is cooked to be made . So all the heating it goes through would clean alot of nasties if there were any. We process our own pigs and lard here
> Hubby grew up doing it.


 
Do you know if restrictions are identical for family farms and corporate farms? I seem to remember that they weren't....but its been a long time since I lived on a farm.

Something that concerns me is the use of downer animals for pet and livestock feed. Any idea how what the status of that is?


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## nebetmiw (May 13, 2015)

I was referring to corporate farms. Family farms mostly use what they grow or sell offspring.


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## girlishcharm2004 (May 14, 2015)

If getting lard or tallow in it's rendered state is cost prohibitive, another option would be to render it yourself.  This is how I started with soap making.  I went down to the local health market and asked for their beef fat trimmings then rendered it.  It was free -- they were going to throw it away anyway.  If you start selling, I'm sure you'll want to find a good supplier.  However if you're just making it for yourself, then it's a bit more manageable; although, it does require more planning and prep.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (May 14, 2015)

Great discussion everyone!  And I agree with the others with finding a good source.  That's as far as my thinking went with not wanting the "bad stuff" in my soap. I use grass fed tallow from a farm I trust. And I call it a day.


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## TeresaT (May 16, 2015)

This has been a great thread.  I started to make my own soap because a local store stopped carrying "Grandma's Lye Soap" which is 100% lard soap.  I made my first batch of soap with grass-fed lard I bought at my local Whole Foods.  A month & a half later, I've rendered my own beef tallow twice and have made about seven batches of soap.  I'm trying to find that perfect blend of fats and oils for my skin.  Plus, I'm having a ton of fun.  My theory on soap making is, if I wouldn't put it IN my body, I'm not going to put it ON my body.  So, if it isn't something I would eat, I'm probably not going to use it to make my soap.  (Thanks for the tip on the emu oil!  Ewww!)  Obviously, there will be exceptions to the rule.  I'm not going to Shea butter my toast, but I will throw some in my soap at some point.  I just don't see me adding colorants, clays, micas or fragrances.  That, to me, defeats the purpose of making my own soap: if I want a bunch of "stuff" in my soap, it's a lot cheaper to go to the store and buy a bar or 20.  But I sure love a good-smelling soap!  I must suffer from MSD - Multiple Soaponality Disorder.


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## MarlinFlake (May 16, 2015)

For what it's worth, shea butter is edible.  If you have food grade shea butter I'd be curious to hear how it is on toast.


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## TeresaT (May 16, 2015)

MarlinFlake said:


> For what it's worth, shea butter is edible.  If you have food grade shea butter I'd be curious to hear how it is on toast.




See that, you learn something new everyday.  I had no idea.  (Not gonna try it, tho.)


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## Soapboiler (May 19, 2015)

Susie said:


> The question, I think, should not so much be, "Where does all the bad stuff go?", but more, "Is there bad stuff still in that lard to worry about?"  Which, to me, is a more pertinent question.  Because I have spent the best part of two days trying to find some sort of proof that bad stuff actually survives the rendering and filtering process to even end up in the lard.  And I have yet to find one credible source that says that it does.



This is what I was wondering. Filtering _might_ not remove "stuff," if it's there, but you have to heat the fat to render the lard, which would mean "stuff" would have to survive that process and a later meeting with Sodium Hydroxide and/or Potassium Hydroxide.

As already noted, this would be an issue with plant oils as well. Arsenic in rice is an example of elements and compounds that can be taken in and stored by plants. Before anyone asks, I _don't_ know if this carries over to the oil, or if it exists in dangerous quantities.

That's the problem: We're dealing with multiple unknowns. If and when I start soap making, I'm not going to turn up my nose at lard and oils; after all, we cook in it. It would be nice if we had some hard data.


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## galaxyMLP (May 20, 2015)

There are toxins in many foods that exist if they are prepared improperly. For example, cassava (also knows as yuca, Brazilian arrowroot, and tapioca) has cyanide in it. In fact, if it is improperly prepared, the cyanide levels can be so high that they cause acute toxicity and can lead to death. Cassava must be boiled and the water dumped in order for it to be safe. I remember one of my professors sharing a story about children who dies from consuming fried, unboiled cassava. 

Basically, many things can be dangerous. Its a matter or how they are treated. I don't think that any of the "toxins" are at appreciable levels in oils.


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## Earthen_Step (May 22, 2015)

MarlinFlake said:


> For what it's worth, shea butter is edible.  If you have food grade shea butter I'd be curious to hear how it is on toast.



I've eaten some by itself just trying it out.  It's one of the oddest fat's I've tasted.  I should make a few things with it and see how it turns out in a dish of sorts.

This thread has been a lot of fun to read through.  I wish some studies were found for some good solid facts.  I looked around some, but could only find fear mongering.  Some great points were brought up!  I just wanted to say thanks for everyone's input, I don't really have anything to add.

*For how genius we feel our societies are at this time, we sure are missing a lot of puzzle pieces.  So much more to be discovered!


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## TeresaT (May 23, 2015)

Earthen_Step said:


> I've eaten some by itself just trying it out.  It's one of the oddest fat's I've tasted.




Let me guess.  It tastes like chicken, right?


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## TheDragonGirl (May 24, 2015)

http://omicsonline.org/animal-fat-processing-and-its-quality-control-2157-7110.1000252.pdf

http://vri.cz/docs/vetmed/56-6-274.pdf

These articles seem to indicate that _some_ types of antibiotics could survive the rendering process while others would not, and that the heat breakdown of the antibiotics could produce undesirable chemical compounds.  but the fats themselves are also very vigorously process and tested for contaminants, of which antibiotics and steriods are considered some, and my reading indicates that they have to fall within safe ranges to be sold as food

so! I would buy pre-rendered fats, and not ones from a butcher unless you know for sure its organic beef/pork, if you're worried about this


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## TheDragonGirl (May 24, 2015)

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2010-02/1266170204.Mi.r.html this is also useful, regarding the PH at which antibiotics are effective

http://forums.steroidal.com/anaboli...ion-will-heating-up-my-oils-kill-hormone.html regarding the effect of heat on steroids


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## LBussy (May 24, 2015)

TheDragonGirl said:


> These articles seem to indicate that _some_ types of antibiotics could survive the rendering process while others would not, and that the heat breakdown of the antibiotics could produce undesirable chemical compounds.


Good articles.

Of course that pre-supposes that we're eating the soap, which we are not.  It also doesn't address the impact/change created by the caustic solution into which we drop those trace amounts of antibiotics - it's more than just the "effective pH range".

I've been using these oils and fats with antibiotics for a while now with no issues, and just look at my skin!


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## TheDragonGirl (May 24, 2015)

I am actually not worried about this but someone was asking for research, and the lye was actually why I posted the article about PH. I couldn't find any research on the effects of lye specifically on antibiotics, other than when it was used to adjust ph in lab tests for other things

I was bored last night and wanted to see what I could find for this


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## LBussy (May 24, 2015)

Oh I appreciate it!  I guess I was not clear - I'm not talking about the efficacy of the antibiotic at a given pH, I'm saying caustic is likely to cause a reaction with the antibiotic, destroying it in some way or another.  In other words, you're left with "something else."

I think the articles were great.  It's difficult to find scholarly articles about some of these things.


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