# Why does bar soap make my skin feel terrible in comparison to liquid?



## AxtFarm (May 28, 2021)

I've used liquid hand soaps and liquid body wash forever because anytime I've tried store bought bar soaps they always leave my skin feeling dry after getting out of the shower. In the shower while using it they feel soft and smooth, but as soon as the water washes the suda off it leaves a weird feeling like everything good just got pulled off my skin. When I use body wash my skin feels smooth during and after use. 

If I use a bar of soap on my armpit hair it clumps together and feels terrible focusing me to go behind it with body wash.

Last night I tried a locally made Goat soap bar with Shae butter thinking I would get different results, but all the same.

The only bar I've used that gave me decent results has been this: Cool Fresh Aloe

Now my wife and I are starting to make GMS even though we both hate using bars....go figure lol (first batch attempt will be this weekend)

What is it that I'm describing about bar soap that I dislike and how do we make bar soap that overcomes this?


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## GemstonePony (May 28, 2021)

I have so many questions, but I'll start out with just this:
1.) What recipe are you using?
2) How long does your soap cure before you use it?


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## AxtFarm (May 28, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> I have so many questions, but I'll start out with just this:
> 1.) What recipe are you using?
> 2) How long does your soap cure before you use it?



I haven't made my first batch yet...when I refer to all bar soaps I've tried I'm referring to store bought.


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## Arimara (May 28, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> I haven't made my first batch yet...when I refer to all bar soaps I've tried I'm referring to store bought.


Even that requires a "which ones" to be specified. Many of the store bought soaps have differing additives that may or may not work for you.


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## GemstonePony (May 28, 2021)

Ok, here are my guesses based on how little information I have to go on:
The weird after-feel can be cause by a combination of the following:
- You have hard water, the soap you're using doesn't have a chelator, and so the soap is leaving soap scum on your skin. It feels rusty.
- Soap cleans no matter what oil it's made of, but some are better at cleaning than others- and consequently take more oil off your skin than others. Unfortunately, the oils that become hard, bubbly soap the fastest are also the harshest cleaners, and in my opinion, figure way too prominently on a lot of soap ingredients lists. The most common oil for this is coconut oil, which I noticed was the last saponified oil listed in the Saskwatch bar you referenced. There's not as much of it in there as olive and palm oils, and the unsaponified Shea butter would further cut into the effectiveness of the coconut oil.
-lastly, and as you have no way of knowing this, neither do I, but the amount of time a bar has cured for makes a huge difference in how hard it is and how mild it is.

- I would say any soap that is crumbly during use is bad soap to use. It may not have reached emulsion, it may be lye-heavy as a whole, or it may simply not have cured yet and will mellow out in time. You have no way of knowing, so I wouldn't risk it.


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## AxtFarm (May 28, 2021)

Arimara said:


> Even that requires a "which ones" to be specified. Many of the store bought soaps have differing additives that may or may not work for you.



Hmmm...hotel soap, my parents house, my grandparents houses....
I've been anti bar soap since I was a kid because they all felt the same to me.


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## AliOop (May 28, 2021)

As @Arimara noted, it's probably some of the additives in store-bought soaps, many of which are actually combars - a combination of syndets and soap. Those all dry out my skin horribly, as well. Their fragrances are often overly harsh, as well. Those kinds of soaps are why I began making my own, and many others here have the same experience, too.

The Dr. S bar is a very basic combo of palm, OO, and coconut oil. My sensitive skin prefers lard over palm any day, and lard is often cheaper than palm, too.  But since you know that your skin likes the Dr. S bars, start with something that has all the same oils they use. If you can use a 500g (1lb) mold, even something homemade, you can make lots of small batches as you learn how to make soap, and not be overrun with too many curing bars everywhere (speaking from experience here).  

Maybe start with: (_edited to change amount of palm v. OO based on order of ingredients on their label)_

40% OO
30% Palm
20% CO
  5% Castor (this isn't listed in the Dr S bar, but it makes for better bubbles and is skin-friendly.)
  5% Shea Butter
33% lye solution
  3% super fat

Since you are new to soapmaking, I would make a couple of small batches without the GM or other additives - just the oils and lye solution.

Once you are comfortable with that basic process, make one or two batches with 1 Tbs PPO Kaolin clay and 1 tsp PPO fine sea salt.  That should be pretty close to the Dr. S bar, and you may find that's what you choose to make for your own use. Or you can experiment with using lard instead of palm to compare the two.

Then make the next batch with the GM. It is an advanced soap-making technique, so you really will benefit from doing non-GM bars first if you can. Lots of good threads here will talk you through that process. If you give these bars a good long cure, they will be nothing like store-bought soap, and I bet your skin will love them.


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## AxtFarm (May 28, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> Hard water



That is true



AliOop said:


> The Dr. S bar is a very basic combo of palm, OO, and coconut oil. My sensitive skin prefers lard over palm any day, and lard is often cheaper than palm, too.  But since you know that your skin likes the Dr. S bars, start with something that has all the same oils they use. If you can use a 500g (1lb) mold, even something homemade, you can make lots of small batches as you learn how to make soap, and not be overrun with too many curing bars everywhere (speaking from experience here).
> 
> Maybe start with:
> 
> ...




Thanks for the good info 

What does the small addition of salt do?


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## GemstonePony (May 28, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> What does the small addition of salt do?


It makes the soap slightly harder and easier to unmold.


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## AliOop (May 28, 2021)

_Edit: GemstonePony just said this, too  _In small quantities, salt hardens the bar so it can be unmolded sooner. However, because salt can also inhibit lather, and has to be dissolved in liquid (before adding lye), many soapers choose to use sodium lactate instead. As a new soaper, I'd stick with salt for now. No need to get all spendy on ingredients until you know if you like it as is, with salt.

The other thing to consider is that I've deliberately kept the CO fairly low at 20%. CO in soap is very cleansing and stripping, so it can contribute to that dry skin feeling. However, CO makes lovely bubbles. That's why I'd add some castor oil, which doesn't make its own bubbles, but supports/sustains the lather created by the CO. You could also add some form of sugar to boost bubbles - but you will get to that eventually when you add the GM, which has milk sugars.

I hope you will post some pics of your first soaps! It's a fun journey, and even more fun when others can be part of it.


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## AxtFarm (May 28, 2021)

Too late to not get spendy. I'm about $500 in and haven't made any soap yet 

I have the clay, sea salt, TD, SL, Sortitol, 2 EO, 2 FO, & 24 sample mica's. The only extra thing I'm yet to buy is Tussah Silk, but it won't be too long.


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## GemstonePony (May 28, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Too late to not get spendy. I'm about $500 in and haven't made any soap yet
> 
> I have the clay, sea salt, TD, SL, Sortitol, 2 EO, 2 FO, & 24 sample mica's. The only extra thing I'm yet to buy is Tussah Silk, but it won't be too long.


 I hated bar soap, but started making it because I was attracted to the visual art aspect. Read up on fatty acid profiles, formulated my own recipe that I thought might not be as irritating to my skin, made it, and discovered to my surprise that I liked it. Best of luck to you!


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## artemis (May 28, 2021)

Something I didn't see addressed:
The store bought body wash is probably made with synthetic detergents. Some people's skin actually does better with detergents than with handmade soap. After experimenting with lye-based soaps, if you don't feel any differently, you might want to pursue syndet (synthetic detergent) recipes.


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## AxtFarm (May 28, 2021)

artemis said:


> Something I didn't see addressed:
> The store bought body wash is probably made with synthetic detergents. Some people's skin actually does better with detergents than with handmade soap. After experimenting with lye-based soaps, if you don't feel any differently, you might want to pursue syndet (synthetic detergent) recipes.



Very interesting, I will look into that.


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## Zing (May 30, 2021)

So?  Have you made any soap?! Enquiring minds want to know!

For decades I used store bought bar soap and had dry, rashy skin.  Because I didn't know anything different, I just thought it was just "skin."  Then I made my own soap and then the heavens opened, angels sang and the lion laid down with the lamb and life was just rainbows and lollipops.  Now when I have to use store bought, it feels caustic.

I really like @AliOop's suggestion (she's a smart one worth listening to).

My unsolicited advice after seeing what all you've bought so far, is for your first attempts to start with only oils and lye/liquid.  There are several steps and lots to attend to.  Then when you're confident about the procedure, then add all the bells and whistles.

Welcome to the forum!


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## Susie (May 30, 2021)

Zing said:


> So?  Have you made any soap?! Enquiring minds want to know!
> 
> For decades I used store bought bar soap and had dry, rashy skin.  Because I didn't know anything different, I just thought it was just "skin."  Then I made my own soap and then the heavens opened, angels sang and the lion laid down with the lamb and life was just rainbows and lollipops.  Now when I have to use store bought, it feels caustic.
> 
> ...



I had the same experience. I have narrowed it down to lack of detergents rather than anything special in the soap. I have tried one bar of "home made" syndet without scents or colors and it was right back to itchy, rashy, dry skin.


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## AxtFarm (May 30, 2021)

Made first batch yesterday, forgot clear eye protection so opted for sun glasses which kind of made it hard to see lol.

Anyways, I turned the stove eye a little too high when melting the oil so I ended up with with 170° oils and lye solution.

I put both in the fridge to get them down to 120° quicker, but then my infant woke up from his nap sooner than he was supposed to. I decided I had to start at 140°. Mixed them together and found out a small batch in a big bowl with a stick blender makes it hard to mix without splatter.

I decided I wasn't going with a solid color so after trace I split into two cups and instead of spoon mixing in cocoa powder into 1 cup I used a milk frother (oops). Of course that made the colored cup thicker than the other cup. It was kind of irrelevant though because by the time I figured out the dark was thicker than I wanted the light colored bowl had thickens up too so they were both like pudding.

I dumped and swirled and then spooned into the mold and then used a spatula to try and smooth the surfaces as much as possible before moving to storage and covering with a towel. I think I'm supposed to cover with plastic wrap before the towel? Because when I checked on them later I had towel stuck in soap leaving little indentions when I pulled them apart.

I forgot to buy a spray bottle to put alcohol in to spray them with so it appears I have soda ash.

I will see how they really turned out tonight when I unmold.

How do y'all handle the dirty dishes? I put them on one side of the sink and ran water on all of them until I can actually clean them tonight, which also appears will be a chore.

I think the biggest issue for me or my wife is going to be soaping for an hour uninterrupted because 3 kids (1, 4, 6) gives us about 10 minutes uninterrupted about 100 times a day lol.


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## AliOop (May 30, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Made first batch yesterday, forgot clear eye protection so opted for sun glasses which kind of made it hard to see lol.
> 
> Anyways, I turned the stove eye a little too high when melting the oil so I ended up with with 170° oils and lye solution.
> 
> ...


Well done! Yes, cover with plastic first. But ash is harmless anyway.

For dishwashing, most suggest wiping out the bowls with paper towels,rags, or microfiber cloths as much as possible. Then don’t run them under any water; just let them sit for a day or two so the batter saponifies. It is a lot easier to wash off soap than greasy batter. 

One diagnostic question: are you already itching to make another batch? If so, the bite was fatal and you are now addicted. That’s why many of us soap at very strange hours to avoid interruptions by children/pets/spouses (@Zing I didn't say husbands this time!) or visiting aliens/relatives.


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## Tara_H (May 30, 2021)

Congratulations on your first batch!  Sounds like it was a great learning experience, I hope your soaps come out well


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## earlene (May 30, 2021)

There are so many helpful hints about things we learned along the way.  Let me direct you to some helpful hint threads that include things like clean-up and so forth.

Here's one: What advice would you give to your beginning soaping self?
About molds: Cheap beginner molds-what are yours?

Congratulations on your first batch.


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## Zing (May 30, 2021)

Now you've done it, one hit and you're hooked for life.  Seriously, congrats, and extra congrats for soaping while parenting.  That took me back, LOL.  It took me weeks to paint my garage because my only daily window was my toddler's naptime.  I remember actually mourning when my baby transitioned from 2 naps to 1 nap and then 1 nap to no nap.

One tip when I want to soap in a busy week.  One day I'll measure out oils and and mix my lye solution.  Then next day I'll combine them.  When I started I was obsessed with temperature but now I soap at room temp or when the oils and lye are warm to the touch.

Sounds like you had a good first experience.  Soda ash is only cosmetic.  I pour my batter into mold, spray with rubbing alcohol (not always in stocked in stores here), cover with plastic wrap, cover with cardboard, then bury it with towels.

I love coloring with cocoa powder.

And in this case, procrastinating on dishes is guilt-free.


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## AxtFarm (May 30, 2021)

Zing said:


> Now you've done it, one hit and you're hooked for life.  Seriously, congrats, and extra congrats for soaping while parenting.  That took me back, LOL.  It took me weeks to paint my garage because my only daily window was my toddler's naptime.  I remember actually mourning when my baby transitioned from 2 naps to 1 nap and then 1 nap to no nap.
> 
> One tip when I want to soap in a busy week.  One day I'll measure out oils and and mix my lye solution.  Then next day I'll combine them.  When I started I was obsessed with temperature but now I soap at room temp or when the oils and lye are warm to the touch.
> 
> ...




I'm in-between the 2 nap to 1 nap stage. He was supposed to sleep for his second time for 2 hours, but he cut it short at 30min. I had to use his first nap to cut grass. Having a farm and only nap times to do weeks of projects and chores can be daunting yet the moment I run out of stuff to do and can relax I don't know what to do with myself so I make myself more work lol.

I actually measured out my oils the day before since I needed to melt down my palm, mix, and portion. I feel like I wasted some oils though going from measuring cup, to storage container, to warming pot.

I assume the 5% super fats is there to help account for losses like that.

I guess I will cut up one of my Amazon boxes and get more towels rdy for the next one


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## MrsZ (May 30, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> So if I want to make another batch before 24 hours is it acceptable to clean the dirty dishes even though they have active lye on them?
> 
> I'm going to run out of palm oil after 3 test batches and want to save that for my real tests.
> 
> ...


I have small children too. Makes a lot of projects difficult.  But they are fun. 

I may be in the minority, but I wash my soaping dishes immediately after pouring. I personally feel safer that way, knowing all lye is cleaned up.


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## Marsi (May 30, 2021)

congratulations on your first soaps!
i like your swirl

a polystyrene box with a lid is an easy insulator
the towel goes over the lid

soaping with children is difficult
cooling lye in a shallow container of ice water is faster (and safer against accidental ingestion) than the fridge

you can wash your dishes at any time
i put mine in a sink of water as i go
and wash them at the end

after you try your own cured soap 
there is no turning back to shop bought


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## AxtFarm (May 30, 2021)

Lesson from batch 2: Don't do your colors and start swirling and then remember you didn't add your FO yet.


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## Zany_in_CO (May 30, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> I have tons of olive oil, I know people do recipes with only olive oil so I was thinking of throwing something together like 80% Olive, 10% coconut, 5% caster, 5% Shae. Soapcal says it will be really soft. Is it worth trying anyways or is it a waste


Good thinking. It's not a waste at all. That's a great combo to use with this recipe:
*ZANY'S NO SLIME CASTILE*

_@AliOop's _recipe is a good one that reflects her knowledge and experience -- she's offering you a "shortcut to perfection" (LOL). It is a variation of the *BASIC TRINITY OF OILS* Starter Formula (Tweak #1). The only thing I would recommend differently is using the Default Settings on *SoapCalc* -- *38% water as % of oils* and *5%* SF just as a starting point before taking a water discount (aka 33% lye concentration) and lye discount (aka "3% Super Fat") -- you can play with those two elements as needed in your trial batches to see what difference it makes.


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## AxtFarm (May 30, 2021)

Batch one at 24 hrs


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## AAShillito (May 31, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Good thinking. It's not a waste at all. That's a great combo to use with this recipe:
> *ZANY'S NO SLIME CASTILE*
> 
> _@AliOop's _recipe is a good one that reflects her knowledge and experience -- she's offering you a "shortcut to perfection" (LOL). It is a variation of the *BASIC TRINITY OF OILS* Starter Formula (Tweak #1). The only thing I would recommend differently is using the Default Settings on *SoapCalc* -- *38% water as % of oils* and *5%* SF just as a starting point before taking a water discount (aka 33% lye concentration) and lye discount (aka "3% Super Fat") -- you can play with those two elements as needed in your trial batches to see what difference it makes.


Yes please try Zany's Castile! Just as is no tweaks! . Its as close to almost instant gratification with making your own soap as you can get!


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## AxtFarm (May 31, 2021)

Batch 2 will be unmolded tomorrow afternoon (call it mango sadness) and batch 3 will be unmolded in the next several days.

For batch 3 I tried a version of @Zany_in_CO no slime Castile recipe with 85% OO, 10% CO, 5% castor, salt water+lye+sorbitol
White mica to lighten the base and then purple mica for secondary color+lavender EO.

I liked how much easier it was to work with since it traced so slowly so hopefully it turns out well.

I see it being a fun recipe to use a column on once I'm doing large batches.

Midnight soaping is much easier lol


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## AliOop (May 31, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> _@AliOop's _recipe is a good one that reflects her knowledge and experience -- she's offering you a "shortcut to perfection" (LOL). It is a variation of the *BASIC TRINITY OF OILS* Starter Formula (Tweak #1). The only thing I would recommend differently is using the Default Settings on *SoapCalc* -- *38% water as % of oils* and *5%* SF just as a starting point before taking a water discount (aka 33% lye concentration) and lye discount (aka "3% Super Fat") -- you can play with those two elements as needed in your trial batches to see what difference it makes.


Thanks for the kind words, Zany, and I appreciate your wealth of knowledge, too. We can agree to disagree about using the water-as-percent-of-oils setting. I find that setting too unpredictable for scaling recipes up or down, since the strength of the lye solution varies by the batch size. To me, it is easier to stick with a predictable lye solution strength using one of the other two settings. Then I know that the 2500g batch will behave pretty similarly to the 500g tester batch. 

@AxtFarm great job on batches 2 and 3 - love the lavender swirls! And I think you will love the version of ZNSC that you tried. It took me a long time to try it; I also blended powdered GM into the oils. It is the first high-OO soap I have ever liked, and hopefully it works for you, too.


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## AxtFarm (May 31, 2021)

I know I'm supposed to let standard soap cure for 4-6 weeks and 6+ weeks on ZNSC. Is that the amount of time they need to cure before I test or can I test sooner and the final cured soap be similar?

(I forgot to add the baking soda to the salt water... hopefully that doesn't mess them up)


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## TheGecko (May 31, 2021)

Why does commercial bar soap feel different than Dr Squatch?  Why did the artisan GMS feel the same as the commercial soap?  Because a lot of commercial soaps aren't really 'soap', they are detergents; might as well shower with Tide or Cascade.  Not all artisan soap makers produce a good bar of soap.

These are the ingredients of "Cool Fresh Aloe":  Saponified Oils of (Olive, Sustainable Palm, Coconut), Aloe Fragrance, Shea Butter, Kaolin Clay, Sea Salt, Colorant.

There are the ingredients of some popular commercial soaps:

*Gold Dial* - Benzalkonium Chloride 0.10% (antibacterial); Soap [Sodium Tallowate* · Sodium Palmate* · Sodium Cocoate* · Sodium Palm Kernelate*] · Aqua (Water, Eau) · Coconut Acid* · Palm Acid* · Palm Kernel Acid* · Tallow Acid* · Glycerin · PEG-6 Methyl Ether · Sodium Chloride · Parfum (Fragrance) · Tetrasodium Etidronate · Pentasodium Pentetate · CI 19140 (Yellow 5) · CI 45350 (Yellow 8) · CI 14700 (Red 4) · Coumarin · Butylphenyl Methylpropional · Linalool · Benzyl Alcohol · Eugenol · Hexyl Cinnamal · Citronellol

* - May contain some of these ingredients

*Irish Spring* - Sodium Tallowate and/or et/ou Sodium Palmate, Sodium Cocoate and/or et/ou Sodium Palm Kernelate, Water/Eau, Glycerin, Hydrogenated Tallow Acid, Coconut Acid, Fragrance/Parfum, Sodium Chloride, Fragrance, Pentasodium Pentetate, Titanium Dioxide, Green 8, Green 3

*Ivory* - Water/Eau, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Chloride, Fragrance/Parfum, Glycol Distearate, Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid, Disodium EDTA, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone

*Jergen's* - Sodium Palmate And/Or Sodium Tallowate, Water, Sodium Palm Kernelate And/Or Sodium Cocoate, Glycerin, Fragrance, Sodium Chloride, Tallow Acid, Coconut Acid, Tetrasodium Edta, Sodium Hydroxide.

Why do you have better luck commercial body washes and liquid soaps than bar soap?  Probably because they are liquid detergents with added ingredients.  To be honest, I've never made Liquid Soap, but I know that the artisan variety is made is KOH instead of NaOH, it is made with the same kind of ingredients as True Soap, you have to cook the ingredients like with HP, it needs to saponify to a paste and then it is liquified with water and glycerin.  And I think you might need a preservative.

I'm almost 60 and for the majority of my life I have suffered from dry skin.  Face Moisturizer, Body Lotion, Hand Lotion...I'd go through bottles of that stuff every month.  I haven't used body lotion since my first bar went into the bathroom two years ago.  I still use a face moisturizer, but a bottle with last me three months and it's light and oil free.  And I still use hand lotion, but I'm also a diabetic and I need it when I'm out and about use 'public' soap.

Dirty Dishes - I wipe everything with damp microfiber towels and set in sink. I then spray everything with some 'orange' cleaner I got from the local "Dollar" store and let them sit while I wiping down my soap cart (rolling kitchen island) with the cleaner and towels and general tidying up. I then rinse everything and either hand wash them or put them in the dishwasher. I then rinse the towels in the dish water and let them dry. They then get tossed in the washer.  Another option is just to put them in a tub and let the batter turn into soap and then you only need water to 'wash' them.

Reading through some of your other posts...ye local "Dollar" store has been my best friend, along with Amazon. All of my mixing bowls/cups come from the $$$ Store along with spatulas, whisks, measuring spoons, wax and parchment papers, dish pans for larger batches, storage containers for salts, beeswax, butters, TD, Kaolin Clay, etc. May I recommend a pastry cutter to help you clean off your molds? 

When I first started out everything fit in a rectangle laundry basket, then it was two. Instead of buy a third to lug around, I bought a nice rolling kitchen island and a shelf above it for colorants and scents. Everything fit perfectly in it and it was lovely. Hubby even bought me a shelfing unit in the garage and commercial size trays so I would quit using the cookie sheets and washer/dryer for curing. Then I bought wall hanging 'pantry' and it's where I store all my packaged soaps and scents (the colorants took over the shelf). 

The Plan was to convert part of the garage over to soap making area for me and a hobby station for hubby. Then of course...things went quite a bit by the wayside when the pandemic struck. I've always been a bit of a stocker, but went into mama bear mode and cleared three of the five shelves in the garage for an extended pantry. Our four-person office became a two-person office as the boss and I started working from home. All the extra work and the stress left little room for soap making. Which worked out since the garbage company wasn't willing to deliver anything but a construction dumpster and wanted a grand to do it. Uh...no. So we were going to do it this year, but the price of lumber is just outrageous. It would be cheaper for me to rent a small storage unit for a year, than it would be to put up a single insulted wall in the garage.


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## AliOop (May 31, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> The Plan was to convert part of the garage over to soap making area for me and a hobby station for hubby. ....
> 
> It would be cheaper for me to rent a small storage unit for a year, than it would be to put up a single insulted wall in the garage.


Awww Gecko, such a bummer. What about buying a small storage shed and putting it inside the garage?


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## AxtFarm (May 31, 2021)

Is it normal for the bars to be tacky at 24 when you unmold and bevel? The feeling is like chocolate chips starting to melt in your hand. Had to use paper towel to rub down the potato peeler.


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## Quanta (May 31, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> I actually measured out my oils the day before since I needed to melt down my palm, mix, and portion. I feel like I wasted some oils though going from measuring cup, to storage container, to warming pot.


You can measure directly into the warming pot if it fits on your scale. Then you won't have any waste. Or weigh it into a lidded plastic container that you can actually make the soap in. You can put it in a warm water bath to melt the hard oils, if you're using any in that batch. Then pour in the lye and mix.

Oh, and if you decide you like palm and you want to keep using it, you can buy no-stir palm oil. It has been homogenized so it doesn't separate. Much easier, especially if you buy it in bulk.



AxtFarm said:


> Is it normal for the bars to be tacky at 24 when you unmold and bevel? The feeling is like chocolate chips starting to melt in your hand. Had to use paper towel to rub down the potato peeler.


Yep. Probably just not hard enough yet. Soaps high in olive oil are like that in particular, and other recipes too. It might be a few days sometimes before you can even get it out of the mold. Part of the reason for making so much soap before you can sell, is that once you nail down a recipe that works for you, you need to figure out the ideal amount of time to wait before unmolding and cutting.

Wait until you make a salt soap, though. That one can be ready to unmold and cut in as little as 45 minutes. A lot of people make them in cavity molds just to avoid having to cut soap that's still hot, lol.


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## AxtFarm (May 31, 2021)

Quanta said:


> You can measure directly into the warming pot if it fits on your scale. Then you won't have any waste. Or weigh it into a lidded plastic container that you can actually make the soap in. You can put it in a warm water bath to melt the hard oils, if you're using any in that batch. Then pour in the lye and mix.
> 
> Oh, and if you decide you like palm and you want to keep using it, you can buy no-stir palm oil. It has been homogenized so it doesn't separate. Much easier, especially if you buy it in bulk.
> 
> ...



Thx for the response & info.

What I don't like about the cavities is they don't make perfect rectangles. The side bow in or out.  Atleast the ones I got from Amazon do that.


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## Catscankim (May 31, 2021)

i have a 9 bar cavity mold from Brambleberry that doesnt bow out. I use it to make salt bars, which I love, love, love.

Curing time may vary, depending on your patience , most recommend 12 months at least, but i use them quite earlier than that. I have a few that are coming up on the 12 month date, so i will be comparing soon.

You might find these nice for your skin if you dont like other bars. I really feel a difference. My friends and customers love them. Note to self: time to break out another bar lol.

If you buy the BB mold, you will be ready to soap in six months or so . (Hint, hint to any BB staff lurkers here lol)....shipping takes forever with them.


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## Quanta (Jun 1, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Thx for the response & info.
> 
> What I don't like about the cavities is they don't make perfect rectangles. The side bow in or out.  Atleast the ones I got from Amazon do that.


You are welcome!

I have some molds from Amazon that are really bad about that. Then I have others from Amazon that don't bow out. I have some little guest soap molds from WSP that are very thick and sturdy, and a few other molds and it really depends on the mold and who made it. I have some like the pink one in your picture, and they are so bad I sometimes can't stand up the soaps on edge to cure. I made a few test batches of salt soap recently and I used a flower shaped mold I bought on Amazon. That one felt really thin and flimsy at first, but once you pour soap into it, it stands up just fine because of the shape.


----------



## earlene (Jun 1, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Is it normal for the bars to be tacky at 24 when you unmold and bevel? The feeling is like chocolate chips starting to melt in your hand. Had to use paper towel to rub down the potato peeler.



That is too soon to bevel.  The only time I bevel new soap that early is if I am running against a deadline to photograph for a Soap Challenge, and then I have to do so very gently.  Just a few days of sitting out in the air will make a huge difference in how much harder the edges become and how much easier it is to bevel without waste or accidental nicks with your fingernail or whatever.  But I really prefer to allow weeks before beveling.  Even less chance of nicks and waste.

Plus when the soap is too fresh, cleaning up the bevel tool is more cumbersome than if you wait for the soap to become dryer.


----------



## Peachy Clean Soap (Jun 1, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Why does commercial bar soap feel different than Dr Squatch?  Why did the artisan GMS feel the same as the commercial soap?  Because a lot of commercial soaps aren't really 'soap', they are detergents; might as well shower with Tide or Cascade.  Not all artisan soap makers produce a good bar of soap.
> 
> These are the ingredients of "Cool Fresh Aloe":  Saponified Oils of (Olive, Sustainable Palm, Coconut), Aloe Fragrance, Shea Butter, Kaolin Clay, Sea Salt, Colorant.
> 
> ...


Thx for the info regarding commercial soap.  I have 1 question, when you mention "sodium palmate' sodium chocolate' Sodium tallowate & others how are these fats processed' to arrive at a new name?.  

Good luck on your future soap making area. I know lumber has tippled in price' hopefully the price will come down soon its absolutely ridiculous.


----------



## GemstonePony (Jun 1, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Thx for the info regarding commercial soap.  I have 1 question, when you mention "sodium palmate' sodium chocolate' Sodium tallowate & others how are these fats processed' to arrive at a new name?.
> 
> Good luck on your future soap making area. I know lumber has tippled in price' hopefully the price will come down soon its absolutely ridiculous.


That is what palm oil and tallow are called after they have been reacted with sodium hydroxide to make soap. So, some of those bars do contain actual soap.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Jun 1, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> That is what palm oil and tallow are called after they have been reacted with sodium hydroxide to make soap. So, some of those bars do contain actual soap.


Thank you & I venture to guess it's the "Technical / Industry Name For Them" ?


----------



## TheGecko (Jun 1, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> I have 1 question, when you mention "sodium palmate' sodium chocolate' Sodium tallowate & others how are these fats processed' to arrive at a new name?.



Tallow + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Tallowate
Palm Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Palmate 
Coconut Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Cocoate 
Palm Kernel Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Palm Kernelate 

I'm thinking of just getting a couple of heavy duty tarps, doubling them, and stapling it to the walls and ceiling.  Won't be as warm or cool as an insulated wall, but we'd still be able to do our thing until prices fall...hopefully next spring.


----------



## TheGecko (Jun 1, 2021)

AliOop said:


> What about buying a small storage shed and putting it inside the garage?



Three things: 1) They aren't cheap...I'd need something in the $300-$500 range. 2) The shed would take up a LOT of room. I only have a single car garage and we'd still need to be able to store our 'stuff' in at least a third of it. We already have a custom built cabinet (holds hubby's hobby stuff in one half and kitchen stuff in the other), plus a shelving unit and upright freezer on one wall. The plan was to move the shelving unit to the new wall along with a second one and move his hobby (4-person dining) table where the shelf unit was. Then on the other wall, I have a 5' kitchen counter and cupboards sitting in a friend's barn. Wouldn't be able to do that. Plus we'd have to run extension cords for electric and light inside of the shed. 3)Then there is what to do with the shed. We have no property and I'd lose half the cost trying to sell it.

Not a bad idea though.


----------



## AliOop (Jun 1, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Lesson from batch 2: Don't do your colors and start swirling and then remember you didn't add your FO yet.


A trick that I often share, and I first heard in one of the FB soaping groups, was to put your measured FO container into your mold. That doesn't help as much for ITPS soaps, but for something that will be layered into the mold, it's a life saver.


----------



## AliOop (Jun 1, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Tallow + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Tallowate
> Palm Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Palmate
> Coconut Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Cocoate
> Palm Kernel Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Palm Kernelate
> ...


If there is any building or remodeling going on around you, it can be worth asking them if you can pick through their scrap pile. Sometimes they pull out whole walls and throw the 2x4s into the trash because it isn't worth their time to pull out the nails. In the past, my husband has gathered some very usable wood that way - not as perfect as what he'd buy if he were building for a customer, mind you, but sufficient for the small personal project he wanted to do.


----------



## Arimara (Jun 1, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Is it normal for the bars to be tacky at 24 when you unmold and bevel? The feeling is like chocolate chips starting to melt in your hand. Had to use paper towel to rub down the potato peeler.


You have to learn how to deal with your environment as you get more into soaping. I know you guys got hit with plenty of rain and when you take into consideration the current temps in house and outdoors, that spells possible wonky soaping. I'd hate to think of how much more humid your area could get if you're closer to the coast.


----------



## Zing (Jun 1, 2021)

Wow, aren't you a go-getter newbie!  How many batches in how many days?!  
I test after 3 weeks, cure for 6 and the longer the better.


----------



## ResolvableOwl (Jun 1, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> sodium chocolate


Don't wanna ride about typos, I _know_ you meant “sodium cocoate”. But you must know: I have the supernatural gift to detect ANY mention of chocolate  (INCI designator for “cocoa butter soap” is the awkward-sounding “sodium cocoa butterate”)


----------



## Tara_H (Jun 1, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Don't wanna ride about typos, I _know_ you meant “sodium cocoate”. But you must know: I have the supernatural gift to detect ANY mention of chocolate  (INCI designator for “cocoa butter soap” is the awkward-sounding “sodium cocoa butterate”)


I was sitting back wondering how long it would take you to pick up on that one...


----------



## linne1gi (Jun 1, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Why does commercial bar soap feel different than Dr Squatch?  Why did the artisan GMS feel the same as the commercial soap?  Because a lot of commercial soaps aren't really 'soap', they are detergents; might as well shower with Tide or Cascade.  Not all artisan soap makers produce a good bar of soap.
> 
> These are the ingredients of "Cool Fresh Aloe":  Saponified Oils of (Olive, Sustainable Palm, Coconut), Aloe Fragrance, Shea Butter, Kaolin Clay, Sea Salt, Colorant.
> 
> ...


Just want to point out @TheGecko, liquid soap doesn't always have to be hot processed.  I actually cold process my liquid soap and have been doing so for years.  It's called CPLS - cold processed liquid soap.  It's a lot easier than cooking the liquid soap, at least in my opinion.   I don't use this for showers however, just for hand soap at the sink - mostly to appease my husband who kept on bemoaning that after I started making soap, there was no more liquid soap at the sink.  Now, he appears to be happy to use my bar soap, figures.  
And I agree, I used to use at lot (a real lot) of lotion after every bath or shower - going through  a least a bottle every 2 weeks.  Since I started making my own soap (2013, so about 8 years) I almost never use lotion any more.  My skin is seldom dry, except in the winter (I live in South Florida) and I make an in-shower lotion bar (and lots of lotions also) which pretty much does the trick.

I also use either paper towels or thin tea toweling I bought at the Dollar Store to wipe out all my bowls, etc.  Try to not let any oils/butters or batter down your drain @AxtFarm or you will definitely be in for some plumbing woes!


----------



## AxtFarm (Jun 2, 2021)

Zing said:


> Wow, aren't you a go-getter newbie!  How many batches in how many days?!
> I test after 3 weeks, cure for 6 and the longer the better.


3 in 3 days and now back to normal work lol. I will play with salt next then move to milk... unless I change my mind lol


----------



## AxtFarm (Jun 2, 2021)

I got my stamper in today. Tried too stamp soap I made friday, but it barely indented it and I hit it too hard with the mallet trying to get it to indent and cracked the soap.

I tried soap I made Saturday that I unmolded yesterday and it stamped, but the outside edges stamped well, but the middle of the image didn't stamp as deep. I tested different force, hit amounts, pushing the mold from top to bottom and side to side. I cracked a few, ended up with a few that the words bore down too hard on one side, and some that half the imagine looked good and the other half was too shallow. I guess that will take some practice.


----------



## AxtFarm (Jun 2, 2021)

Just unmolded batch 3 that was made Sunday night (85% OO, 10% CO, 5% CO) and stamped them. None of the stamps came out perfect, but not terrible I suppose.


----------



## Zing (Jun 2, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Just unmolded batch 3 that was made Sunday night (85% OO, 10% CO, 5% CO) and stamped them. None of the stamps came out perfect, but not terrible I suppose.


You are on a roll!  Great color combination, great swirl, and charming stamp.


----------



## TheGecko (Jun 2, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> Just want to point out @TheGecko, liquid soap doesn't always have to be hot processed. I actually cold process my liquid soap and have been doing so for years. It's called CPLS - cold processed liquid soap. It's a lot easier than cooking the liquid soap, at least in my opinion. I don't use this for showers however, just for hand soap at the sink - mostly to appease my husband who kept on bemoaning that after I started making soap, there was no more liquid soap at the sink. Now, he appears to be happy to use my bar soap, figures.



Thank you.  As I said, I've made so I was relying on what I had run across.  I too have a hubby who misses the liquid soap so knowing there is a cold process to make it, may have me exploring that option down the road.


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## AliOop (Jun 2, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Thank you.  As I said, I've made so I was relying on what I had run across.  I too have a hubby who misses the liquid soap so knowing there is a cold process to make it, may have me exploring that option down the road.


Don't want to jijack the thread, but I must say that after learning about CPLS from @linne1gi  I now* love* making LS. I used to dread the HPLS cooking process, which I found very stressful.


----------



## AAShillito (Jun 3, 2021)

AliOop said:


> If there is any building or remodeling going on around you, it can be worth asking them if you can pick through their scrap pile. Sometimes they pull out whole walls and throw the 2x4s into the trash because it isn't worth their time to pull out the nails. In the past, my husband has gathered some very usable wood that way - not as perfect as what he'd buy if he were building for a customer, mind you, but sufficient for the small personal project he wanted to do.


That's how my father in law got new to him kitchen cabinets


----------



## AAShillito (Jun 3, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> 3 in 3 days and now back to normal work lol. I will play with salt next then move to milk... unless I change my mind lol


I saw the post earlier about all the washing - I bought this on amazon and it's saved my sanity. It's great for the Amazon 42 oz loaf  molds and great in general bc its easy to hold and pour from. I plunk it on my scale and measure my oils right into it.


----------



## AAShillito (Jun 3, 2021)

Arimara said:


> You have to learn how to deal with your environment as you get more into soaping. I know you guys got hit with plenty of rain and when you take into consideration the current temps in house and outdoors, that spells possible wonky soaping. I'd hate to think of how much more humid your area could get if you're closer to the coast.


Wonky soaping also happens when it's a 100 degrees plus outside. ( Parker, AZ). I'm buying a new  big fan for the kitchen when we get back from vacation.


----------



## TheGecko (Jun 3, 2021)

AliOop said:


> If there is any building or remodeling going on around you, it can be worth asking them if you can pick through their scrap pile. Sometimes they pull out whole walls and throw the 2x4s into the trash because it isn't worth their time to pull out the nails. In the past, my husband has gathered some very usable wood that way - not as perfect as what he'd buy if he were building for a customer, mind you, but sufficient for the small personal project he wanted to do.



We have a company a few blocks over that build custom crates for shipping equipment that has an ongoing scrap pile. It used to be that you could get some half sheets of plywood or OSB, but even they have become very careful. They had just put a new batch on Tuesday, but nothing over 8" wide and someone must have been using an old blade as the edges were really, really rough. When I came home from work last night, most of it was gone.

I had passed a construction site on Saturday...new apartments.  One way in, guard at the gate and razor wire on the top of the fencing.


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## AxtFarm (Jun 3, 2021)

AAShillito said:


> I saw the post earlier about all the washing - I bought this on amazon and it's saved my sanity. It's great for the Amazon 42 oz loaf  molds and great in general bc its easy to hold and pour from. I plunk it on my scale and measure my oils right into it.



You measuring everything into it and then microwave it? I have been heating everything on the stove.


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## GemstonePony (Jun 3, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> You measuring everything into it and then microwave it? I have been heating everything on the stove.


I seriously love polypropylene, I have sets of pitchers and beakers in different sizes that I got off Amazon. I can stick them in the microwave to just melt things, and I also put them in a hot water bath for lotions and stuff. Plus, they come in so handy for subdividing batter, and are impervious to NaOH and FOs.
Edited to add: good silicone spatulas are the other soaping/crafting staple. I don't recommend crossing between food/non-food use for any silicone entities, particularly if you use any sort of fragrance (essential oil or fragrance oil).


----------



## AAShillito (Jun 3, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> You measuring everything into it and then microwave it? I have been heating everything on the stove.


Yes. So far no issues with  my soaping . It's just so hot here I can't stand heating up my kitchen. In the winter stovetop is fine


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## AAShillito (Jun 3, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> I seriously love polypropylene, I have sets of pitchers and beakers in different sizes that I got off Amazon. I can stick them in the microwave to just melt things, and I also put them in a hot water bath for lotions and stuff. Plus, they come in so handy for subdividing batter, and are impervious to NaOH and FOs.
> Edited to add: good silicone spatulas are the other soaping/crafting staple. I don't recommend crossing between food/non-food use for any silicone entities, particularly if you use any sort of fragrance (essential oil or fragrance oil).


Yes when I was at ikea I got 4 spatulas for 3 bucks. They're all the same color and look nothing like my foofy Pioneer Woman spatulas


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## AliOop (Jun 3, 2021)

I also measure all my hard oils into one container, melt them in the microwave, then measure the soft oils into the same container. I only melt on the stove if I plan to hot process the soap on the stove.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Jun 3, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Tallow + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Tallowate
> Palm Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Palmate
> Coconut Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Cocoate
> Palm Kernel Oil + Sodium Hydroxide = Sodium Palm Kernelate
> ...


Thx Gecko. appreciate it.


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## TheGecko (Jun 4, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> You measuring everything into it and then microwave it? I have been heating everything on the stove.



I think it's a matter of personal preference.  I started out using the microwave, but then I started making lotion bars with beeswax and cocoa butter (and other ingredients) and found that the wax and butters melted better and quicker on the stove than in a microwave.  Shortly thereafter, I started Master Batching and using the stove to melt my hard oils was so much more convenient and less time consuming.  But I still use the microwave to heat my MB'd oils, because it is much quicker as the hard oils have not fully solidified.


----------



## Susie (Jun 12, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Why do you have better luck commercial body washes and liquid soaps than bar soap?  Probably because they are liquid detergents with added ingredients.  To be honest, I've never made Liquid Soap, but I know that the artisan variety is made is KOH instead of NaOH, it is made with the same kind of ingredients as True Soap, you have to cook the ingredients like with HP, it needs to saponify to a paste and then it is liquified with water and glycerin.  And I think you might need a preservative.
> 
> _No need to cook liquid soap paste. I find it as easy as bar soap to make. We have lots of threads over on the Liquid and Cream Soap Forum to help._
> 
> ...


----------



## TheGecko (Jun 12, 2021)

Susie said:


> _I use a rolling catering style cart for all of my supplies and equipment, but your rolling kitchen island sounds much better! Can you post pics of the rolling kitchen island?_









I paid around $200 for it at WalMart.  They have something similar, but without the shelves on the end.

I had been making soap for about three months when I bought it. It sits against the wall, next to a plug in. I have a Command Hook off to the right side that holds my apron and stick blender. The drawer on the left held implements...measuring spoons, spatulas, whisks, digital thermometer; the other drawer held colorants and small bottles of FO/EO. 

The inside holds a LOT. Where the open door on the above is, you will find four 'shoebox' size boxes for Cocoa and Shea Butters and Coconut and Palm Oils. Under them are 4-3L bottles of Olive Oil and 2 gals of Distilled Water. The side shelves would hold bottles of Sodium Hydroxide, Castor Oil, Sodium Lactate, dispersed TD, larger bottles of FOs/EOs, etc. The other side of the cabinet I would have mixing bowls, measuring/mixing cups, assorted molds, scale, additives, etc.

There is a towel bar on the left...I hang spray bottles of IPA, white vinegar and dollar store 'orange' cleaner. I also have a large plastic cutting board on top with a juice trough and it sits on a non-stick pad. 

Things have changed a bit since I originally bought it. I have a shelf above that holds all my colorants and I have a tiered shelf inside the garage door for all my FOs/EOs. I Master Batch my Oils/Butters in 1 gal buckets for GMS and 5 gal for Regular and ready-to-us Lye Solution in gal jugs these days so I buy in larger quantities and store them in my garage, but I still keep small quantities in the cart (I use them first when MBing and refill) for when I'm testing.

Probably next year I'll move my soap making out to the garage. When that happens, my Kitchen Aid will get moved over to the cart along with some other large items that I'm constantly having to drag in from the cabinet in the garage (pressure cooker, soup pot, pasta maker, crock pot, large mixing bowls).


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## AAShillito (Jun 18, 2021)

AxtFarm how are your soaps coming along?


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## AxtFarm (Jun 20, 2021)

AAShillito said:


> AxtFarm how are your soaps coming along?



Just waiting for my 4-6 weeks to be up so I can start testing my soap and then I will start passing out samples to my testers...except my salt bars which I guess will get tested around Christmas.

Made our first batch of goat milk lotion this weekend that we start giving out to our testers Monday. It was easy to make, no waiting time for curing, and good margins.


----------



## Quanta (Jun 20, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Just waiting for my 4-6 weeks to be up so I can start testing my soap and then I will start passing out samples to my testers...except my salt bars which I guess will get tested around Christmas.
> 
> Made our first batch of goat milk lotion this weekend that we start giving out to our testers Monday. It was easy to make, no waiting time for curing, and good margins.


Just in case you don't already know, milk in lotion can be pretty tricky to preserve properly. So if you're going to be selling it you will want to get it lab tested to make sure your preservatives can handle the milk. Keep an eye out for color/scent changes, and for little bubbles forming in the bottles.


----------



## AxtFarm (Jun 20, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Just in case you don't already know, milk in lotion can be pretty tricky to preserve properly. So if you're going to be selling it you will want to get it lab tested to make sure your preservatives can handle the milk. Keep an eye out for color/scent changes, and for little bubbles forming in the bottles.



We got a recipe from someone who has made and sold goat milk lotion for a long time. I asked her about shelf life and she said even after months she never had any issues. I've researched it and read that it can have a short shelf life and it's pretty much impossible to preserve for long periods of time. We will keep an eye on it and see how long it's good for. Using Stearic acid and phenonip.


----------



## Quanta (Jun 20, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> We got a recipe from someone who has made and sold goat milk lotion for a long time. I asked her about shelf life and she said even after months she never had any issues. I've researched it and read that it can have a short shelf life and it's pretty much impossible to preserve for long periods of time. We will keep an eye on it and see how long it's good for. Using Stearic acid and phenonip.


Phenonip is what I would use. You can't beat parabens for efficacy and safety, especially for tricky formulas like this one. Excellent choice.

If your recipe doesn't already have it, you'll want to add Disodium EDTA to boost the preservatives. It's not a preservative in itself, but it helps your preservatives work better which may increase your shelf life some. That's why you commonly see it in lotions.

Stearic acid is a thickener/stabilizer, not a preservative. Don't rely on it to preserve anything by itself.


----------



## AxtFarm (Jun 20, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Phenonip is what I would use. You can't beat parabens for efficacy and safety, especially for tricky formulas like this one. Excellent choice.
> 
> If your recipe doesn't already have it, you'll want to add Disodium EDTA to boost the preservatives. It's not a preservative in itself, but it helps your preservatives work better which may increase your shelf life some. That's why you commonly see it in lotions.
> 
> Stearic acid is a thickener/stabilizer, not a preservative. Don't rely on it to preserve anything by itself.



About stearic acid..I wasn't aware, I used .4 oz more than recipe called for trying to boost preservatives a little and the lotion is really thick so maybe that's why.

I will look into Disodium EDTA. My recipe makes 48oz lotion how much should I use? I used 14 grams phenonip.


----------



## AxtFarm (Jun 22, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Phenonip is what I would use. You can't beat parabens for efficacy and safety, especially for tricky formulas like this one. Excellent choice.
> 
> If your recipe doesn't already have it, you'll want to add Disodium EDTA to boost the preservatives. It's not a preservative in itself, but it helps your preservatives work better which may increase your shelf life some. That's why you commonly see it in lotions.



I see in another recipe they use Disodium EDTA at a 0.2% ratio which means for my 48oz recipe I would be using 3 grams of Disodium EDTA. I'm using Phenonip at 1% which is the recommended max usage. I see a separate recipe that uses rosemary antioxidant as a preservative.

Can I use Phenonip at 1% (14grams)(recommended 1% max), Rosemary antioxidant at .075% (1 gram)(recommended .15% max), and Disodium EDTA at 0.2% (3 grams) to make a more complete preservative system while still being safe?

I want to make a good, safe product and if I am going to pay $500 to get it lab tested I need to get it right before sending it in.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jun 22, 2021)

_"...I see a separate recipe that uses rosemary antioxidant as a preservative. ..."_

To avoid confusion, most people on this forum use "preservative" to mean ingredients that specifically kill microorganisms. This would include ingredients such as phenonip or liquid germall plus, but not antioxidants such as ROE or chelators like EDTA. Crafter's Choice also draws a distinction between an antioxidant and a preservative --

"..._Rosemary Oleoresin Extract is a natural anti-oxidant....This is not a preservative and will not prevent mold, yeast and/or fungal growth_...." Crafter

I'm not sure why Mountain Rose is mixing the two concepts -- it's confusing.

I'm curious about the recipe you mentioned. I don't see the recipe in your link -- Rosemary Antioxidant


----------



## Quanta (Jun 22, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> I see in another recipe they use Disodium EDTA at a 0.2% ratio which means for my 48oz recipe I would be using 3 grams of Disodium EDTA. I'm using Phenonip at 1% which is the recommended max usage. I see separate recipe that they use rosemary antioxidant as a preservative at 1.2%.
> 
> Can I use Phenonip at 1% (14grams), Rosemary antioxidant at 1% (14 grams), and Disodium EDTA at 0.2% (3 grams) to make a more complete preservative system while still being safe?
> 
> I want to make a good, safe product and if I am going to pay $500 to get it lab tested I need to get it right before sending it in.


Ditto what @DeeAnna said about ROE not being an antimicrobial preservative. It "preserves" against rancidity, that is all. If you use oils and butters that are naturally resistant to rancidity, you won't even need to worry about adding it at all.

That being said...

0.2% sounds about right for the EDTA, but 1.2% is really an awful lot of ROE. In fact, I'm fairly certain that 1.2% has to be a typo. Even moving the decimal over, 0.12% is still a bit too much. You'll need to look at the manufacturer's or vendor's data to see how much carnosic acid is in it to figure out exactly how much to use, but it should be more like 0.05%. If you put too much, it acts as a pro-oxidant, which is the opposite of what you want. Not to mention the very strong odor, at 1.2% that would be quite noticeable.

What I recommend, is you add the ROE only to the oils/butters that need it as soon as you get them. Some oils are resistant to rancidity on their own, so I wouldn't bother adding it to these. Don't add more when you make the lotion, but be sure to put it in the list of ingredients if you do put it in the oils.

For more information, read @DeeAnna's page on it here:




__





						Rosemary oleoresin (ROE) | Soapy Stuff
					

Classic Bells restores antique sleigh bells and manufactures bell home decor. Wholesale. Retail.




					classicbells.com


----------



## AxtFarm (Jun 22, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...I see a separate recipe that uses rosemary antioxidant as a preservative. ..."_
> 
> To avoid confusion, most people on this forum use "preservative" to mean ingredients that specifically kill microorganisms. This would include ingredients such as phenonip or liquid germall plus, but not antioxidants such as ROE or chelators like EDTA. Crafter's Choice also draws a distinction between an antioxidant and a preservative --
> 
> ...



I saw the rosemary in this recipe (which im skeptical of)

I like what I'm seeing from this recipe and think using their preservative system would be good. The only thing that throws me is their use of goat milk powder and does it only pass the USP 51 test because they are using powder rather than raw goat milk? And these extra ingredients need certain PH so the recipe wants a 4.5ph which just makes it more complicated and costly.

Could I use Phenopin at 1% and Germaben II at 1%? They both seem to be good against gram-positive and gram-negative, but have different ingredients.


----------



## AxtFarm (Jun 22, 2021)

As far as tester feedback, overall everyone likes the lotion except they think the fragrance needs to be slightly stronger so that is being bumped up a little for my next test batch.


----------



## Quanta (Jun 22, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> I saw the rosemary in this recipe (which im skeptical of)


I'm glad you're skeptical, because that is not a good recipe. There is no way that milk should be substituted for water at 100%. A small amount of water can be swapped out for milk, but there's no way I would make a lotion that used milk _instead_ _of_ water. That recipe also does not specify temperatures, and does not include heat-and-hold. The formulator also implies that ROE can be used instead of a preservative, and that isn't true. She also says that she personally uses a mix of ROE and preservative, with no indication (that I saw) of how much of each to make up that 1.2%. There are quite a few other red flags on that page (and on other pages of that same website) that indicate to me that these people are trying to figure out how to make skincare products by trial and error instead of just researching it using reputable sources.



> I like what I'm seeing from this recipe and think using their preservative system would be good. The only thing that throws me is their use of goat milk powder and does it only pass the USP 51 test because they are using powder rather than raw goat milk? And these extra ingredients need certain PH so the recipe wants a 4.5ph which just makes it more complicated and costly.


I trust LotionCrafter. If they suggest a particular preservative system, it's a good one.

If you're going to use raw, fresh goat milk, I highly recommend you pasteurize your milk first. If you don't already have one, you can get a 2 gallon pasteurizer for about $400.

Citric acid is what you'd use to lower the pH, and it is literally one of the cheapest ingredients you can buy. Not to mention you'd use miniscule amounts of it, making it even cheaper. A one pound bag will last you a very, very long time. You would need to buy a pH meter (I do not trust paper strips at all) but those last a while. All you do is check the pH, mix in a few drops of citric acid solution (dissolve it in distilled water), and check the pH again. You can get pH meters that are specifically for thick, viscous liquids and semi-liquids so you don't even need to dilute the lotion in water first. I have this meter, but with the regular electrode:





						Apera Instruments Premium-Series PH60S Food pH Pocket Tester Kit, Swiss Spear pH Electrode, ±0.01 pH Accuracy, -2.00-16.00 pH Range (AI313): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
					

Apera Instruments Premium-Series PH60S Food pH Pocket Tester Kit, Swiss Spear pH Electrode, ±0.01 pH Accuracy, -2.00-16.00 pH Range (AI313): Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific



					www.amazon.com
				



When my current electrode needs to be replaced, I'm getting this spear one. With the regular one, everything has to be diluted in water first and I'm tired of doing that. I only got the regular one because it cost less.



> I think I will stick with the original recipe, but add the Disodium EDTA at 0.2%


Are you ok with sharing your recipe for feedback?


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## AxtFarm (Jun 22, 2021)

Quanta said:


> I'm glad you're skeptical, because that is not a good recipe. There is no way that milk should be substituted for water at 100%. A small amount of water can be swapped out for milk, but there's no way I would make a lotion that used milk _instead_ _of_ water. That recipe also does not specify temperatures, and does not include heat-and-hold. The formulator also implies that ROE can be used instead of a preservative, and that isn't true. She also says that she personally uses a mix of ROE and preservative, with no indication (that I saw) of how much of each to make up that 1.2%. There are quite a few other red flags on that page (and on other pages of that same website) that indicate to me that these people are trying to figure out how to make skincare products by trial and error instead of just researching it using reputable sources.
> 
> 
> I trust LotionCrafter. If they suggest a particular preservative system, it's a good one.
> ...


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## DeeAnna (Jun 23, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> I saw the rosemary in this recipe (which im skeptical of)...



I would be skeptical too. The author doesn't really understand what they're doing. 

Any self-respecting cosmetic chemist would have major problems with that much goat milk in a lotion. No matter what preservative system you choose to use, that's waaaaay too much "bug food". No preservative can function well in this situation.

Have you heard of the mouse explosion in Australia? The explosion is being driven by a drought that is driving mice to farms where there is food such as hay and grain crops. Farmers are desperately trying to trap and otherwise kill the mice, but even though the farmers kill thousands of mice per day, the mice are continuing to overwhelm the land. As long as there is food, the mice will keep breeding in extraordinary numbers. 

A lotion with goat milk is like one of those Australian farms. The preservative is the mouse traps the farmer is using. The microbes are the mice. As long as you can control the food to a minimum, a preservative can do a decent job of killing the few stray microbes that happen to be in the lotion. A preservative _cannot _control the growth of microbes as long as there is an abundance of food.

An effective preservative system is only one leg of a three-legged stool. The other two legs are minimal food sources and sanitary manufacturing practices.


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## AxtFarm (Jun 23, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> I would be skeptical too. The author doesn't really understand what they're doing.
> 
> Any self-respecting cosmetic chemist would have major problems with that much goat milk in a lotion. No matter what preservative system you choose to use, that's waaaaay too much "bug food". No preservative can function well in this situation.
> 
> ...



So is 50/50 water to milk acceptable or should it be 60/40 or 75/25?

Is Phenopin at 1% + Disodium EDTA sufficient or do I double up and do Phenopin at 1% and Germaben II at 1% + Disodium EDTA  or should I use something else in conjunction with the Phenopin & Disodium EDTA?


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## amd (Jun 23, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> So is 50/50 water to milk acceptable or should it be 60/40 or 75/25?


My quick answer is to look at the overall % of the recipe rather than a ratio water to milk.
I noticed the lotion crafter recipe says this regarding their GM powder:




So I would be inclined to use 9% goat milk in a recipe with the proper preservatives as a guideline. But that's just how I'm looking at it, not having done a lot of research with using GM in lotions.


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## Quanta (Jun 24, 2021)

amd said:


> My quick answer is to look at the overall % of the recipe rather than a ratio water to milk.
> I noticed the lotion crafter recipe says this regarding their GM powder:
> View attachment 58755
> 
> So I would be inclined to use 9% goat milk in a recipe with the proper preservatives as a guideline. But that's just how I'm looking at it, not having done a lot of research with using GM in lotions.


If @AxtFarm is going to be using the goat milk raw, I would suggest bumping that down to maybe 2% of the total formula. I would only go as high as 9% if it's pasteurized. Even 9% might be a bit high for milk that hasn't been powdered. Powdered milk has less potential for microbial contamination, which is the whole point of powdered milk. It keeps much longer than fresh milk.


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## AxtFarm (Jun 24, 2021)

Quanta said:


> If @AxtFarm is going to be using the goat milk raw, I would suggest bumping that down to maybe 2% of the total formula. I would only go as high as 9% if it's pasteurized. Even 9% might be a bit high for milk that hasn't been powdered. Powdered milk has less potential for microbial contamination, which is the whole point of powdered milk. It keeps much longer than fresh milk.



Wouldn't you lose all the benefits of "goat milk lotion" if there is hardly any milk in it?


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## Quanta (Jun 24, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Wouldn't you lose all the benefits of "goat milk lotion" if there is hardly any milk in it?


You would lose far more benefits if it was full of bacteria and therefore unusable.

Here's an experiment. Get three clean jars and put into one of them some fresh milk. In the second, mix half milk and half distilled water. In the third, mix 2% fresh milk and 97% water. In each, add 1% Phenonip. Which do you think will smell the best a week later?

Milk as a lotion ingredient is mostly for label appeal. It doesn't actually do much. The oils, butters, and fats are the stuff that make lotion what it is. "Whole" milk is only somewhere around 4% fat. Even if your lotion was 100% milk with nothing else added, you can't get the fat content above 4%. So it's not a terribly effective lotion on its own. So, it stands to reason, it's all the other stuff - Shea butter, avocado oil, etc. that make your lotion moisturizing.


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## AxtFarm (Jun 24, 2021)

Quanta said:


> You would lose far more benefits if it was full of bacteria and therefore unusable.
> 
> Here's an experiment. Get three clean jars and put into one of them some fresh milk. In the second, mix half milk and half distilled water. In the third, mix 2% fresh milk and 97% water. In each, add 1% Phenonip. Which do you think will smell the best a week later?
> 
> Milk as a lotion ingredient is mostly for label appeal. It doesn't actually do much. The oils, butters, and fats are the stuff that make lotion what it is. "Whole" milk is only somewhere around 4% fat. Even if your lotion was 100% milk with nothing else added, you can't get the fat content above 4%. So it's not a terribly effective lotion on its own. So, it stands to reason, it's all the other stuff - Shea butter, avocado oil, etc. that make your lotion moisturizing.



Is that equally true about goat milk soap as just being for label appeal and not terribly effective for the soap?


In reality, if the difference between water and milk makes almost no difference to the final products feel, or benefits (eczema for example which milk is supposedly really good for) then the only thing that really matters is that in the event that I needed or wanted to list the ingredients it would go: Water, Milk, x, y ,z. So as long as milk is above 3.4 oz it would be 2nd on my ingredients list. Unless I dehydrated it and then it drops down the list.

3.5oz milk would make it 8% of total weight


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## Quanta (Jun 24, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Is that equally true about goat milk soap as just being for label appeal and not terribly effective for the soap?
> 
> 
> In reality, if the difference between water and milk makes almost no difference to the final products feel, or benefits (eczema for example which milk is supposedly really good for) then the only thing that really matters is that in the event that I needed or wanted to list the ingredients it would go: Water, Milk, x, y ,z. So as long as milk is above 3.4 oz it would be 2nd on my ingredients list. Unless I dehydrated it and then it drops down the list.
> ...


Milk in soap adds sugar, which makes the lather better. Any sugar added to soap will make the lather better, and there are many things that can be added which have enough sugar to have this effect. The fat in milk gets saponified with the rest of the oils and doesn't necessarily make the soap more moisturizing.


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## AxtFarm (Jun 24, 2021)

I will make another test batch this weekend taking the milk down to 8% and see how the final product feels in comparison to the original.

With ideal preservation results what kind of shelf life am I looking at?


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## earlene (Jun 24, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> Is that equally true about goat milk soap as just being for label appeal and not terribly effective for the soap?
> 
> 
> In reality, if the difference between water and milk makes almost no difference to the final products feel, or benefits (eczema for example which milk is supposedly really good for) then the only thing that really matters is that in the event that I needed or wanted to list the ingredients it would go: Water, Milk, x, y ,z. So as long as milk is above 3.4 oz it would be 2nd on my ingredients list. Unless I dehydrated it and then it drops down the list.
> ...



Besides helping with bubbles, and for some a more luxurious feel (although that could be subjective), milk in soap doesn't stay on the skin long enough to do anything beneficial anyway.  PLUS it's composition probably changes a lot more when in the presence of lye than it would in a lotion.

But I don't quite understand why the percentage of GM would go down when it is powdered?  Couldn't it actually go up?  Water is one of the ingredients in GM, right?  So if you don't reconstitute powdered GM, but mix it with the other liquids in your recipe, might it not be at a higher percentage that it would have been if it were a liquid?  It's just a thought; I don't really know for sure if that would be the case.  And I don't make lotion, so cannot really say if the powder would mix well with the other ingredients anyway.


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## AxtFarm (Jun 24, 2021)

The recipe by lotion crafter linked several posts up uses powdered milk, but I was just saying from an ingredient weight it would be lower on the list. I'm not sure what dictates the order of the list other than the higher on the list it is the more of it is in the recipe.


as far as pasteurizing vs dehydrating I see us buying a $100 dehydrator way before spending $500+ on a pasteurizer. Plus, if we have to dehydrate the milk then that just opens the door to lip balm.


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## Quanta (Jun 24, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> as far as pasteurizing vs dehydrating I see us buying a $100 dehydrator way before spending $500+ on a pasteurizer. Plus, if we have to dehydrate the milk then that just opens the door to lip balm.


It's not really a matter of pasteurizing vs. dehydrating. It's a matter of _either_ pasteurizing alone, _or_ pasteurizing and dehydrating. I would not ever recommend a dehydrator of the kind used for fruit and such, unless you can get the temperature up high enough to keep the milk from spoiling during the process. Remember, milk spoils in a wider range of temperatures than the fruits and veggies normally dried in those things. If you're going to dehydrate the milk in that kind of dehydrator, I think you'll end up introducing more microbes than if you pasteurize it and use it right away. When I mentioned powdered milk being less likely to contaminate formulations, it's because commercially produced powdered milk is dried in very specialized equipment that greatly reduces microbial contamination (it keeps the milk hot and dries it very quickly by spraying it in small droplets in a heated chamber), and pasteurization is part of the process.

For now, I would recommend you scald the milk before using it. Get it up to at least 161°F for at least 15 seconds, and then pour it into a sanitized non-glass bowl in an ice water bath to cool it quickly. That's about as close to pasteurization as you'll be able to get without the proper equipment. Make sure you sanitize everything. I would use StarSan but you can use ethyl alcohol diluted to 70% in distilled water.


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## AxtFarm (Jun 24, 2021)

Quanta said:


> It's not really a matter of pasteurizing vs. dehydrating. It's a matter of _either_ pasteurizing alone, _or_ pasteurizing and dehydrating. I would not ever recommend a dehydrator of the kind used for fruit and such, unless you can get the temperature up high enough to keep the milk from spoiling during the process. Remember, milk spoils in a wider range of temperatures than the fruits and veggies normally dried in those things. If you're going to dehydrate the milk in that kind of dehydrator, I think you'll end up introducing more microbes than if you pasteurize it and use it right away. When I mentioned powdered milk being less likely to contaminate formulations, it's because commercially produced powdered milk is dried in very specialized equipment that greatly reduces microbial contamination (it keeps the milk hot and dries it very quickly by spraying it in small droplets in a heated chamber), and pasteurization is part of the process.
> 
> For now, I would recommend you scald the milk before using it. Get it up to at least 161°F for at least 15 seconds, and then pour it into a sanitized non-glass bowl in an ice water bath to cool it quickly. That's about as close to pasteurization as you'll be able to get without the proper equipment. Make sure you sanitize everything. I would use StarSan but you can use ethyl alcohol diluted to 70% in distilled water.



I was using water in bleach to sanitize everything. I suppose starsan is better? 

Thanks for the advice for sorta pasteurizing. I will try that this weekend.


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## Quanta (Jun 24, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> I was using water in bleach to sanitize everything. I suppose starsan is better?
> 
> Thanks for the advice for sorta pasteurizing. I will try that this weekend.


Bleach leaves a residue that has to be rinsed off... with non-sanitized water. StarSan is used on equipment for making beer, wine, and cheese and so it is totally safe. Leave it in the solution for 3 minutes, and then take it out and let it air-dry without rinsing. 

Alcohol works faster than either and dries off faster, too, with no residue. StarSan and bleach both have limitations as far as what kind of surfaces they can be used on, however.


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## AxtFarm (Jun 24, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Bleach leaves a residue that has to be rinsed off... with non-sanitized water. StarSan is used on equipment for making beer, wine, and cheese and so it is totally safe. Leave it in the solution for 3 minutes, and then take it out and let it air-dry without rinsing.
> 
> Alcohol works faster than either and dries off faster, too, with no residue. StarSan and bleach both have limitations as far as what kind of surfaces they can be used on, however.



I ordered the starsan, but it won't arrive till next week. I don't have ethyl alcohol, but I do have 99% Isopropyl alcohol.


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## Quanta (Jun 25, 2021)

AxtFarm said:


> I ordered the starsan, but it won't arrive till next week. I don't have ethyl alcohol, but I do have 99% Isopropyl alcohol.


You can use that. Mix it with water at 70% alcohol to 30% distilled water. It is important to mix it with water first.


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## AAShillito (Aug 13, 2021)

AxtFarm how's the soaping going?


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