# If you met someone who said they made soap…?



## J-Soaper (Jun 27, 2021)

could you tell whether that person:

1. had never made so much as a single batch of soap?
2. had made a few batches but was still very new to soap making?
3. was, by no means a novice, but neither an expert?
4. was just shy of what you'd classify as an expert?
5. was a soap guru?

What would be the "tells"?

Of course, you would not be permitted to ask how much soap the person had made or anything along those lines. Rather, you're just talking about soap making with this other person. But, for example, when the person said _____________ or asked ______________ you immediately knew this person had never made a batch of soap in their lives. Or that they were fairly experienced. Or an expert.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Jun 27, 2021)

When I meet a "Soaper" my instant thought is "I'm w/ my tribe" and regardless how much experience they have or haven't, its an instant connection. ❤


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## J-Soaper (Jun 27, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> When I meet a "Soaper" my instant thought is "I'm w/ my tribe" and regardless how much experience they have or haven't, its an instant connection. ❤


I'm not placing any value judgement on their level of expertise (or lack there of), just curious about what "tells" would make it clear to you where they were on that road.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Jun 27, 2021)

J-Soaper said:


> I'm not placing any value judgement on their level of expertise (or lack there of), just curious about what "tells" would make it clear to you where they were on that road.


Right I got that, & as the conversation continues you discover their soap journey.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 27, 2021)

That's of course very dependent on the situation. First, I'd be very alert if my conversational partner themselves try to ask me such questions (since, as we know, all the soap gurus are already carefully watching SMF threads like this one ).
Then of course there are some litmus things like attitude towards syndet soaps, superfat, EO vs. FO, or legal trickery that can help identify the level of skills/mastery. But I'm always aware that, with addressing such things, I'll reveal a lot about myself too!
An infallible, though rogue trick is to apply Cunningham's Law: self-confidently state something utterly wrong, and wait your counterpart to contradict (or not).


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## KimW (Jun 27, 2021)

@ResolvableOwl - I had to give a giggle to your reply because that is EXACTLY what my old boss would do to interviewees.  It used to make me want to crawl under the table and hide until I realized the wisdom and deft success in culling of the masses.

To answer the OP.  An interesting question, but I don't think there are really any tells to quickly determine a soaper's true experience level.  Even with what @ResolvableOwl has stated, there are soapers I've recently learned about who do things I would assume an experienced soaper would not do and, as with any craft/art, there are strong viewpoints even on this forum of what would be a right vs wrong thing to do in soaping - like mixing lye in a glass container.  Also, and again just as with any craft/art, there are so many facets to soap making that one shouldn't, for example, assume that someone who had never tried or heard of High Temp Hot Process wasn't an experienced soaper.  Finally, as I've discussed with someone on PM, there can be a vast difference between someone who's been soaping for ten plus years all alone and only soaping once a week or once a month compared to someone who's only been soaping a few years but is actively learning on forums and makes soap almost everyday - there will be gaps in the knowledge of each that can be filled by these two soapers kindly and respectfully sharing of experiences and ideas.  On the question of someone who's never actually made soap, there's so much information out there, and here on SMF, that it would be fairly easy to "fake it until you make it".  To coin an old phrase, it's not like we're practicing rocket science here. 

All this to say, I think the full answer to your question boils down to what @Peachy Clean Soap said in that "as the conversation continues you discover their soap journey."


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Jun 27, 2021)

KimW said:


> To answer the OP.  An interesting question, but I don't think there are really any tells to quickly determine a soaper's true experience level.  Even with what @ResolvableOwl has stated, there are soapers I've recently learned about who do things I would assume an experienced soaper would not do and, as with any craft/art, there are strong viewpoints even on this forum of what would be a right vs wrong thing to do in soaping - like mixing lye in a glass container.  Also, and again just as with any craft/art, there are so many facets to soap making that one shouldn't, for example, assume that someone who had never tried or heard of High Temp Hot Process wasn't an experienced soaper.  Finally, as I've discussed with someone on PM, there can be a vast difference between someone who's been soaping for ten plus years all alone and only soaping once a week or once a month compared to someone who's only been soaping a few years but is actively learning on forums and makes soap almost everyday - there will be gaps in the knowledge of each that can be filled by these two soapers kindly and respectfully sharing of experiences and ideas.  On the question of someone who's never actually made soap, there's so much information out there, and here on SMF, that it would be fairly easy to "fake it until you make it".  To coin an old phrase, it's not like we're practicing rocket science here.
> 
> All this to say, I think the full answer to your question boils down to what @Peachy Clean Soap said in that "as the conversation continues you discover their soap journey."


Well said & agree .


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## J-Soaper (Jun 27, 2021)

I appreciate the responses thus far and would enjoy reading what others might have to contribute.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Jun 27, 2021)

KimW said:


> To answer the OP.  An interesting question, but I don't think there are really any tells to quickly determine a soaper's true experience level.  Even with what @ResolvableOwl has stated, there are soapers I've recently learned about who do things I would assume an experienced soaper would not do and, as with any craft/art, there are strong viewpoints even on this forum of what would be a right vs wrong thing to do in soaping - like mixing lye in a glass container.  Also, and again just as with any craft/art, there are so many facets to soap making that one shouldn't, for example, assume that someone who had never tried or heard of High Temp Hot Process wasn't an experienced soaper.  Finally, as I've discussed with someone on PM, there can be a vast difference between someone who's been soaping for ten plus years all alone and only soaping once a week or once a month compared to someone who's only been soaping a few years but is actively learning on forums and makes soap almost everyday - there will be gaps in the knowledge of each that can be filled by these two soapers kindly and respectfully sharing of experiences and ideas.  On the question of someone who's never actually made soap, there's so much information out there, and here on SMF, that it would be fairly easy to "fake it until you make it".  To coin an old phrase, it's not like we're practicing rocket science here.
> 
> All this to say, I think the full answer to your question boils down to what @Peachy Clean Soap said in that "as the conversation continues you discover their soap journey."





ResolvableOwl said:


> That's of course very dependent on the situation. First, I'd be very alert if my conversational partner themselves try to ask me such questions (since, as we know, all the soap gurus are already carefully watching SMF threads like this one ).
> Then of course there are some litmus things like attitude towards syndet soaps, superfat, EO vs. FO, or legal trickery that can help identify the level of skills/mastery. But I'm always aware that, with addressing such things, I'll reveal a lot about myself too!
> An infallible, though rogue trick is to apply Cunningham's Law: self-confidently state something utterly wrong, and wait your counterpart to contradict (or not).



(Cunningham’s law)
I had to  it up

There is a saying in French – “prêcher le faux pour savoir le vrai” which means
“preach the falsehood to know the truth”.

Hmm who knew .


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## TheGecko (Jun 27, 2021)

A person can know a lot about making soap without ever having had made so much as a bar.  And a person can have been making soap for long than you've been out of diapers and not know anything about soap making beyond the recipe that was handed down.

If someone were to say to me that they make soap without Lye, I wouldn't immediately assume that they didn't know what they were talking about, but that perhaps their experience is strictly with Melt & Pour from a craft shop.


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## J-Soaper (Jun 27, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> … but that perhaps their experience is strictly with Melt & Pour from a craft shop.


 I was talking with a non-soaper and mentioned that I make my own soap and he asked, "You mean you buy that stuff that you just melt and then pour into a mold?" I said, "No, I actually *make* my own soap." I think that was the first time I'd even heard of melt and pour.


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## Misschief (Jun 27, 2021)

I had a customer at my table a few weeks ago who asked me what makes my soap soap. It caught me off guard but I answered her and we had a lovely conversation. It turns out she used to make soap but no longer does. She was testing me and I passed.


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## J-Soaper (Jun 27, 2021)

Misschief said:


> I had a customer at my table a few weeks ago who asked me what makes my soap soap. It caught me off guard but I answered her and we had a lovely conversation. It turns out she used to make soap but no longer does. She was testing me and I passed.


Seems like a lot of people don't know what makes soap.


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## KimW (Jun 27, 2021)

J-Soaper said:


> Seems like a lot of people don't know what makes soap.


Agreed.  Recently had an interaction similar to yours with the non-soaper.  Very dear friend of mine said she wanted me to come over and teach her to make soap, but as the conversation developed I realized she wanted to learn how to do M&P.   She had no idea there was any other way, except on an industrial scale, to make soap.


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## Andy7891 (Jun 27, 2021)

I went to a fair a couple of years ago, after having been making soap for a few years, off and on. I said, only to name drop, "So, do you do hot process or cold process?". I think maybe someone asking esoteric questions like that is kind of a give away of new soap maker. I think I got the impression the seller was a little tired and not amped up to sell, and I wanted to talk shop with them, maybe let them know I wasn't someone who didn't really care how the soap was made. But at the same time, they probably didn't have the energy to entertain me being proud of myself for knowing a little about soaping. I've never met another soaper in person, that I know of.


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## Sally Scheibner (Jun 27, 2021)

J-Soaper said:


> I'm not placing any value judgement on their level of expertise (or lack there of), just curious about what "tells" would make it clear to you where they were on that road.





Andy7891 said:


> I went to a fair a couple of years ago, after having been making soap for a few years, off and on. I said, only to name drop, "So, do you do hot process or cold process?". I think maybe someone asking esoteric questions like that is kind of a give away of new soap maker. I think I got the impression the seller was a little tired and not amped up to sell, and I wanted to talk shop with them, maybe let them know I wasn't someone who didn't really care how the soap was made. But at the same time, they probably didn't have the energy to entertain me being proud of myself for knowing a little about soaping. I've never met another soaper in person, that I know of.


A great soaping conversation start I’ve used too. I ask if they’ve ever hot processed to limit the cure time. That is a good tell. I HP because my dry eyes don’t allow any curing in the house. The draw back is it doesn’t stay fluid enuf!! for molding. Every once in a while if temps stay low it works better.


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## J-Soaper (Jun 27, 2021)

Andy7891 said:


> I've never met another soaper in person, that I know of.


Neither have I. But I find that's the case with a lot of things I do.


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## TheGecko (Jun 27, 2021)

KimW said:


> Very dear friend of mine said she wanted me to come over and teach her to make soap, but as the conversation developed I realized she wanted to learn how to do M&P.



I had this happened with a crafting group earlier this year when I offered to bring supplies so folks could make their own soap,  I was going to bring a couple of small buckets of my Master Batch to keep it simple…heat the oil, add in the MB’s Lye Solution, scent, colorant and pour.  And since it’s a three-day event, you come back the next day to unmold and then wait six weeks.  Oh no…they want to make the stuff that you melt, pour and can use right away.


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## Kafayat Adebowale oyeniyi (Jun 27, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> I had this happened with a crafting group earlier this year when I offered to bring supplies so folks could make their own soap,  I was going to bring a couple of small buckets of my Master Batch to keep it simple…heat the oil, add in the MB’s Lye Solution, scent, colorant and pour.  And since it’s a three-day event, you come back the next day to unmold and then wait six weeks.  Oh no…they want to make the stuff that you melt, pour and can use right away.


I feel you.people are no longer ready to patient to cure soap bars.Its either they have no knowledge of the benefits of the longer cure or they do and they just want to sell on time turnover and make more soap with no care for the final consumer who bears the brunt of their practices


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## earlene (Jun 28, 2021)

Andy7891 said:


> I went to a fair a couple of years ago, after having been making soap for a few years, off and on. I said, only to name drop, "So, do you do hot process or cold process?". I think maybe someone asking esoteric questions like that is kind of a give away of new soap maker. I think I got the impression the seller was a little tired and not amped up to sell, and I wanted to talk shop with them, maybe let them know I wasn't someone who didn't really care how the soap was made. But at the same time, they probably didn't have the energy to entertain me being proud of myself for knowing a little about soaping. I've never met another soaper in person, that I know of.


I have noticed that soap sellers at boothes such as that are really there to sell their product, not talk with other soapers who are not going to buy their product.  And I understand that completely.

Going to soapmaker gatherings, conferences, seminars (what have you) has given me ample opportunity to meet loads of soap makers face-to-face.  I love to travel, so these are things that fit well with travel.  In my former life, travel was a part of one of my jobs, and in another educational courses were also a frequent travel opportunity, so I have simply continued a long-time practice by attending these kinds of events.

I highly recommend attending such a soapmakers group event if you ever have the chance.  It can be so much fun and you may find yourself meeting & making new friends.

As to the original question, I have not given it a lot of thought, as far as a face-to-face meet with someone who claims to make soap.  HOWEVER, I did once talk with a gal at a soap maker's 'booth'  (it was more like a cottage in an old crafts demonstration faire-type setting) who was not the maker, but an assistant or apprentice or just a helper.  It was clear she knew very little about the process of soap making, other than what she had been told, and that she had no real experience or technical knowledge of soap making.  I was disappointed because I wanted to learn a little more about how the soap that was being sold was being made, what the specific oils used were, and so forth.  It as a place using recycled restaurant oils, but the gal had no clue what kind of oils were in the soap, just 'oil' and she didn't seem to have a clue that the amount of lye used in soap was dependent on the specific oils, etc.

But if you watch some soapers on youtube, one in particular I can think of, who have been making soap for many many years without a lye calculator, and their soap is successful, are they any less experienced at making soap? They may do it differently and for other reasons, than I, but their experience with their recipe is real and valid.


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## linne1gi (Jun 28, 2021)

I live in a large 55+ community and every year we have a craft fair. My first time selling there, someone told me there was another soap maker a few tables away. I went over to introduce myself. She told me she makes all natural soap, so of course, I was expecting plain colored white, beige or brown soaps. She pulled out a few of her soaps and I see they are all melt and pour!  Now I would never think of MP as all natural.  We had a short conversation and I told her I make my soap from lye and oils/butters. To which she said, I could never use soap made from lye, that’s why I make my all natural soap!   I had to walk away - or else I’m sure I would have gotten in trouble.  Anyway fortunately for me, she moved last fall.


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## J-Soaper (Jun 28, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> I live in a large 55+ community and every year we have a craft fair. My first time selling there, someone told me there was another soap maker a few tables away. I went over to introduce myself. She told me she makes all natural soap, so of course, I was expecting plain colored white, beige or brown soaps. She pulled out a few of her soaps and I see they are all melt and pour!  Now I would never think of MP as all natural.  We had a short conversation and I told her I make my soap from lye and oils/butters. To which she said, I could never use soap made from lye, that’s why I make my all natural soap!   I had to walk away - or else I’m sure I would have gotten in trouble.  Anyway fortunately for me, she moved last fall.


I also would have had to walk away.
She had no idea what she was doing at all or what was in her melt and pour.
I was at a health food store one time and the owner was equally ignorant about what she was selling.


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## earlene (Jun 28, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> We had a short conversation and I told her I make my soap from lye and oils/butters. To which she said, I could never use soap made from lye, that’s why I make my all natural soap!   I had to walk away - or else I’m sure I would have gotten in trouble.  Anyway fortunately for me, she moved last fall.





J-Soaper said:


> I was at a health food store one time and the owner was equally ignorant about what she was selling.



That is so sad.


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## scrubadubdub (Jun 28, 2021)

I met a soaper that was only 1 year into the game (I've been making soap for 4 years) and she has a full-fledged business. Even though Ive been making soap a lot longer, I admired her entrepreneurial and go-getter spirit. 4 years in and I am just now building my business. I have learned not to judge people because this lady knew her stuff even though she was still new to the game. 

I started with MP and I still do some MP; I don't judge on that either because everyone starts somewhere and some people just like MP. It has its place in the soaping world, too. There is room for both


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## Cat&Oak (Jun 28, 2021)

The one thing I have learned from soaping is it is a constant learning curve. I like to say "I don't know what I don't know" because things I was sure of as a beginning soaper I cringe at now. That is why we always encourage people to take your time!


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## linne1gi (Jun 28, 2021)

scrubadubdub said:


> I met a soaper that was only 1 year into the game (I've been making soap for 4 years) and she has a full-fledged business. Even though Ive been making soap a lot longer, I admired her entrepreneurial and go-getter spirit. 4 years in and I am just now building my business. I have learned not to judge people because this lady knew her stuff even though she was still new to the game.
> 
> I started with MP and I still do some MP; I don't judge on that either because everyone starts somewhere and some people just like MP. It has its place in the soaping world, too. There is room for both


It's not the fact that she makes MP, It is the fact that she has no knowledge of the fact that even MP is made with lye.  All soap is made with lye - that is what bothered me.


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## J-Soaper (Jun 28, 2021)

Cat&Oak said:


> The one thing I have learned from soaping is it is a constant learning curve. I like to say "I don't know what I don't know" because things I was sure of as a beginning soaper I cringe at now. That is why we always encourage people to take your time!


I’ve been soaping for a few years but, until very recently, only made soap for my own use.  As a single person, I don’t go through much soap. Doing it for years doesn’t necessarily translate to lots of batches.

Each time I think I understand something, I later find out that I really didn’t.


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## amd (Jun 28, 2021)

I tend to question my knowledge more often than others. For example, a few years ago I was talking with another soapmaker and she started talking about water discount. I was stumped... until after the conversation when I realized that she used the default lye concentration in the calc and then did her own calculations to adjust the water less 10% (creating a "water discount")... rather than just adjusting the lye concentration in the calc. Playing with lye concentrations is something I've always done, so it never occurred to me that another soaper wouldn't do the same.

That said... there are some people I wonder how they are still in business. There are two GM soap people in my area, one of them over the last few months has sold her goats and hung up her soapmaking apron. She has been telling her customers that she is not aware of any other GM soapers in the area, but has started to send a few my way as I do occasionally make the odd GM soap. So I asked her if she knew the other ladies who do GM soap... and she laughed. They have goats that they milk and they sell the milk, but for their GM soap they use an MP GM soap base. We're shaking our heads over that one... 'cuz if you have the milk, why not go the next step? But talking to them, they will tell you that it is handmade GM soap. The next time I see them, I may just have to buy a bar or really dig into a conversation.... 'cuz they seem to be misleading a lot of people about what their soap really is.


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## Obsidian (Jun 28, 2021)

Every soaper I've met in real life has been fairly nasty as soon as I say I make soap too. Never had a chance to just BS with one.

The exception was one at a crafts fair who had really pretty HP soaps. He got a kick out me being able to ID many of his scent blends. Very nice guy, I ended up buying a bar of the one scent I couldn't ID.

What little discussion I have had with other soapers is the one who didn't know if her soaps were CP or HP. I couldn't tell either, they just looked odd. All I could get out of here is she didn't cook them. Maybe they were tabletop HP, who knows.
Or the one who didn't know the percentages of her oils in the one recipe she used. I needed to know roughly how much coconut as my skin is sensitive.


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## Cat&Oak (Jun 28, 2021)

J-Soaper said:


> I’ve been soaping for a few years but, until very recently, only made soap for my own use.  As a single person, I don’t go through much soap. Doing it for years doesn’t necessarily translate to lots of batches.
> 
> Each time I think I understand something, I later find out that I really didn’t.


Me too! I've been soaping for 11 years but that was one or two small batches a month for family and gifts so really not that much.


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## amd (Jun 28, 2021)

Obsidian said:


> Every soaper I've met in real life has been fairly nasty as soon as I say I make soap too.


99% of the time this is true for me as well. Especially if we are selling at the same market. Occasionally I do run into nice soapmakers, but not usually when I am also a seller.


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## Obsidian (Jun 28, 2021)

amd said:


> 99% of the time this is true for me as well. Especially if we are selling at the same market. Occasionally I do run into nice soapmakers, but not usually when I am also a seller.



I was a buyer in all these cases, they acted like I was out to steal their secrets even after I said I don't sell.


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## bookworm (Jun 28, 2021)

A lovely question. Personally, as new and very inexperienced in soap making, I’d love to meet an experienced and successful soaper.  I’m so curious what they’d say and what gems they have to impart. Whenever I read soaping books ; read through the answers on this forum, or watch YouTube, I’m just in awe observing masters at their craft.


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## scrubadubdub (Jun 28, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> It's not the fact that she makes MP, It is the fact that she has no knowledge of the fact that even MP is made with lye.  All soap is made with lye - that is what bothered me.


New and inexperienced, as well as MP-only soapers are mostly clueless about the role that lye plays in soapmaking. Most people hear lye and they immediatly think danger - dont go near it. When I tell my friends and family that I use lye to make soap, they are so surprised. Honestly, I had to convince my sister that all soap was made with lye - not just mine lol. She went from loving my soap to being skeptical, until I explained it thoroughly and now she loves it again. Lol - but seriously, I understand newbies fears of lye - it is dangerous stuff.


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## J-Soaper (Jun 28, 2021)

scrubadubdub said:


> Most people hear lye and they immediatly think danger - dont go near it.


My friends and I started playing with lye when we were still in elementary school. I respect it, but I'm not at all afraid of it.

"What in the blazes were we doing playing with lye!?!?!" you might ask.

Get a gallon glass jug, put about 3 inches of water in it, add a bunch of lye (we NEVER measured it). Put a brick or two down into the bottom of a five-gallon bucket, set the set the gallon jug on top of the bricks, get the garden hose and fill the bucket with water. Then turn the water down really low and let it keep flowing into and over the top of the bucket (cold water bath), shove aluminum foil into the jug and put a balloon over the top of the jug. 

Aluminum is a VERY strong reducer -- so much so that it can pull the oxygen out of water -- WAY better than iron. But what normally happens in that a layer of aluminum oxide form on the surface of the aluminum and it prevents the rest of it from oxidizing. However, the lye prevents that layer from forming. Rather, the aluminum oxide falls to the bottom of the jug. That process liberates the hydrogen -- which is captured by the balloon. 

When the balloon is full, tie it off and let it go -- floats away. 

You need the water bath to keep it cool or your balloon will fill with steam instead of hydrogen -- and it will not float away. 

Or, let the aluminum fizzle a while and then strike matches and throw them at the top of the jug -- poof.

Either way, lots of fun for young boys.


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## Misschief (Jun 28, 2021)

J-Soaper said:


> My friends and I started playing with lye when we were still in elementary school. I respect it, but I'm not at all afraid of it.
> 
> "What in the blazes were we doing playing with lye!?!?!" you might ask.
> 
> ...


I don't remember what the experiment was but I remember our science teacher demonstrating something using sodium hydroxide. He must have added the water to the lye because all I remember is that there was a violent reaction and a drop of the lye mix hit one of the students on her throat. She had a scar there for many years, likely still does. I don't think that teacher ever did that experiment again... or he learned to do it correctly.

It did foster a healthy respect for lye.... and the first hand knowledge of what happens when you do it wrong.


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## scrubadubdub (Jun 29, 2021)

bookworm said:


> A lovely question. Personally, as new and very inexperienced in soap making, I’d love to meet an experienced and successful soaper.  I’m so curious what they’d say and what gems they have to impart. Whenever I read soaping books ; read through the answers on this forum, or watch YouTube, I’m just in awe observing masters at their craft.


Maybe visit a local farmers market and try talking to a soap maker there. I went to a market on a whim and met a really nice soapmaker. We are planning to do lunch and talk soap stuff soon.


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## lucycat (Jun 29, 2021)

I have met lots of nice soap makers at fairs.  Generally, I think nice soap makers at fairs know their niche, are confident and don't let competition bother them. They tell me at the beginning they are a soap maker and where their booth is located as well as stopping by before the show starts or when traffic is slow.   At one time I had a couple of other soap makers who went together with me on some bulk orders because it saved us on shipping.   

However, I have also met beginning soap makers who spend too long at my booth and don't think about the effect they have on me being able to converse with customers.   I also have had soap makers who came to ask questions and check prices and scents and then I found out later they had a booth.   That type of practice can really sour you on other's intentions when someone comes to your booth asking questions.


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## scrubadubdub (Jun 29, 2021)

lucycat said:


> I have met lots of nice soap makers at fairs.  Generally, I think nice soap makers at fairs know their niche, are confident and don't let competition bother them. They tell me at the beginning they are a soap maker and where their booth is located as well as stopping by before the show starts or when traffic is slow.   At one time I had a couple of other soap makers who went together with me on some bulk orders because it saved us on shipping.
> 
> However, I have also met beginning soap makers who spend too long at my booth and don't think about the effect they have on me being able to converse with customers.   I also have had soap makers who came to ask questions and check prices and scents and then I found out later they had a booth.   That type of practice can really sour you on other's intentions when someone comes to your booth asking questions.


I agree - that would be aggravating - especially at a market or an event. However...when I met the soapmaker I’m planning to have lunch with, I realized that I had never bought a handmade bar of soap from someone else, nor had I ever even tried another soap makers soap before. I genuinely wanted to see what others were doing and how my soap compares. For me, it isn’t about competition, it’s just curiosity. Also, if I expect others to buy my product, why wouldn’t I try someone else’s? Just my two cents


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