# Natural Preservatives?



## Zenobiah

Hi!

I am fairly new at making CP soap and I have been trying to research natural preservatives for Bath and Body products.

I just found a link to a new natural preservative called CitroZine or CitroFresh and I am wondering if anyone has tried it and whether it can actually be called natural or not.

http://www.aromantic.co.uk/citrozine.htm



Birgitte


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## Tabitha

_I do want to give everyone a warning before this thread even gets started. I have seen many ugly arguements about natural preservatives vs standard preservatives vs no preservatives. Everyone is entittled to their own choices. Standards of preservation vary by country also. Please do not let this thread become an arguement or a matter of who's product is *better* preserved than everyone else's product.

Please feel free to explore this topic openly and honestly in a friendly manner. _

With that being said, I have not heard of this product so I am afraid I can not help you.


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## Zenobiah

Yes, I don't want to start a fight or anything. Just trying to figure out the different alternatives for preserving.

Oh, and what about food preservatives? My mom uses agar-agar (made from kelp) to preserve her homemade jam, would that be safe/appropriate to use in B&B products?


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## Soapmaker Man

I make emulsified O-N-Water and W-N-Oil body lotions and creams from scratch.  I have tested my mixture for 6 to 9 months before ever thinking about selling it.  I do hear of a few new "natural" preservatives for B&B products, and these are starting to become available for purchase, so they must be tested as acceptable by the cosmetics police.  I do use Germall Plus, LiquaPar Optima, Germaben 2, depending on the application, but have not tried these so called "natural" preservatives, so I cannot make a educated statement, and will not.  I am sceptible about them, personally.  I do know that I would never even think about adding anything as a "preservative" that is not accepted preservative material within the cosmetics industry.  That is simply asking for at the least trouble, and at the most a lawsuit.  These are just my opinions on what I do and would not do, but using a food preservative in a lotion, cream or scrub, is not acceptable practices and not safe.

Paul....  :wink:


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## Zenobiah

Paul, I agree. If it is not safe, I am not going to do it. But if there is a safe, natural alternative out there, I would much prefer that. That is why I am researching as much as I can about this. 

How about lotion bars? What kind of preservatives do you need for those in order to be safe? Or whipped shea butter? Do you need to add preservatives in all B&B products (except for soap)? Or just those that contain water?


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## Tabitha

IMHO, lotion bars & whipped shea do not need a preservative. They do not contain water & water will not be introduced into the.

I see some mass produced whipped butter do have water & preservatives but they are not the type of whips *we* would be making for the most part.


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## Zenobiah

Thank you, Tabitha. At least there are some things I can make without worrying too much then.


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## EagleHeart

The name reminds me of Citracidal or common name = Grapefruit seed extract (GSE). I am just now starting to use GSE as a natural preservative when using water in my lotions so do not yet have long term results to speak of. This Citrozine or citrofresh says its a bitter orange extract. I know orange oil works well as a natural cleaner. So there might be something to this - but I'm just thinking it through out load here. I'll be interested to learn more about it now! 
I wonder if it smells though? Could be a problem if you don't want that scent.
EH


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## Soapmaker Man

I respectfully want to point out all the issues that surround both GSE and even the preservatives I use.  GSE, even though invented in the 1970's in Germany, is not a trusted, reliable, preservative I would feel comfortable using while selling my goods to my customers, no matter how much I would LOVE to use it as such!  Folks, GSE is not a "preservative" in B&B, and I only know of one Internet supplier who is brave enough to call it such, while most only will call it a "antioxidant" for preventing oils prone to rancidity, at best.  Here is a article with quoted studies you might want to take a look at before considering this a safe "preservative" in aqueous emulsification's, especially if considering selling your water-based goods. 
Yes, there are 2 sides to every fence, and I have, over the past 2 years, tried looking with an open mind at both sides.  But until I can 100% guarantee to my customers that GSE will keep my/their lotions/creams protected from 1 year of manufacture, I can't use this product.

http://www.terressentials.com/truthaboutgse.html 

and also please read; 

http://www.treasuredlocks.com/trabpringrse.html 

I do sell lotions and creams, and would absolutely LOVE to use an natural "preservative" if one would effectively work without causing harm to a customer.  GSE cannot guarantee this  and thus, in my mind, cannot be a trusted, effective long term (up to a year) preservative where water is a component in the emulsification. I use Lotioncrafter and The Herbarie as my lotions/creams preservative suppliers, and they do not sell GSE as a preservative, a antioxidant only. Like Tab stated, whipped body butters, things like shea butter, anything where no water in included, or could accidentally dropped into the jar of butters or scrub, is fine. Water creates germies if not protected correctly. 
I even read that some GSE manufacturers are putting Parabens in their GSE to help it protect in water based applications.  That is not much different than just outright using them as the preservative.

These are just my guidelines I use for making my decisions based on the research I've done for the past couple years, and asking others their views.  You guys, please research, and after looking at both sides of the fence like I did, and make the decision that only you can feel comfortable with! :wink:  8)   

Paul....


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## EagleHeart

Paul 
   thanks for the added knowledge about GSE. I'm new to all this and as much as I've researched I still have been afraid to make anything with water since I can't find a suitable preservative. Sounds like we're all in the same boat - wanting to make the safest and most natural product we can.
   But just this past week I decided to thin out some lotion bases with distilled water and thought I'd try GSE. I too do not want to harm customers, but also have not found anything I feel comfortable with as the 'proven' options either have glycols or parabens. So for now these  lotions are for personal testing. Maybe I should thin with something else other than water to avoid the whole mess?
   I have made no water lotions, but need GSE and Vit. E to help keep the oils from going rancid, so maybe I'll stick with working on perfecting these recipes until an 'all natural' preservative falls into my lap.
   I've got a bit more on my mind about all this but for now this is as far into the topic as I'll go as I'm still learning.
EH


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## Zenobiah

So nice when everyone can get along. I agree, I would not trust using just GSE. That is why I have been researching to see if there is a proven alternative that I have overlooked in my newbieness.

But that bitter orange extract is all I have found and I don't know if there is any real research on it or even whether they have added all kinds of chemicals to it that they don't tell you about. If they can do that to GSE, why not to this?

I guess I will stay away from any water-containing recipes for now.


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## Soapmaker Man

I agree, it is nice when we can all state our thoughts, findings of research, and opinions in a way that does not belittle another forum member!   8)   This is what forums like this should be about. Respect.  Thanks guys for making this topic such an enjoyable exchange of ideas!  Cool!!!  

Paul....  :wink:


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## Zenobiah

I have a deodorant that my cousin made for me. It is liquid but does not contain water, only oil. It has no preservatives in it. Is that okay? It is in a roll-on bottle.

Also, do you need preservatives in salt scrubs, as they don't contain water either?

I really can't bring myself to use artificial preservative. At least not yet. I think it is the hippie in me.


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## Bret

I would for salt scrubs simply because of the environment they are used it. It'd be easy to get water in the container... Unless of course you're just using it for yourself at home and not to sell. I mix up a simple one before a shower, but I'd never sell it.


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## Zenobiah

Good point. You use it in the shower so you get water in it.

Shucks.


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## Tabitha

The deo *should* be OK. It would have a modest shelf life though. Oils do go rancid.

As for scrubs, you MUST use a preserve if you plan to store it ANY length of time. They will grow mold quickly. They may not be made w/ water, but you are going to get water in them for certain. If you just mix up enough for 1 or 2 uses I would *think* you could keep a non preserved scrub in your refridge for a week or so but you are taking a risk if you do not use it same day.

I would rather use a scrub with an artificial preserve in it than one that is moldy & full of bacteria :shock: .

If you absolutely are dead set against preserves I would suggest  keeping you dry ingredients in a jar and  your liquid ingredients in a bottle and just mixing the 2 together in your hand as you need them. I have bought scrubs like this before. You just place 2 tablespoons of dry ingredients into a small cup, or the palm of your hand, add a tablespoon liquid & stir.


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## dragonfly princess

> I would rather use a scrub with an artificial preserve in it than one that is moldy & full of bacteria[quote:1r6f23lc]
> 
> 
> Can I get an order of the penicillin flavored scrub?  WOW what is that staring back at me?  hahahahhaha  Is that green stuff supposed to be furry?
> 
> Ok enough!!


[/quote:1r6f23lc]


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## dragonfly princess

I am gonna stop with the quotes I can't get them right to save my life


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## Zenobiah

Lol! The penicilline flavored scrub is going to sprout legs and walk out on you, dragonfly!

No, I am not dead set against preservatives. I am just dragging my heels about it because that was not how I envisioned things would be. I will sulk for a few days and then start using preservatives like there is no tomorrow.


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## Tabitha

Zen, I think 98% of us dived into this w/ a fairy tale innocence that about how our products will be. The more we learn , the more we _adjus_t our vision. I do not mean that in a mean way. There are soapers out there that work really hard to have the *most* natural product possible & that is admirable, when done safley. I would like to some day be able to claim my products are all veagan, not just vegetarian, but veagan!


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## EagleHeart

Well looks like I'm not ready to _adjust_ quite yet. And not sure I ever will be. I'd rather just not make that product then if I can make it safe AND natural. 
If you can't tell by the name, I'm of native ways. I've been heavy into the herbal field for about a decade now (informally longer) and recently certified as a wholistic kinesiologist. (and yes I prefer EOs to FOs). So guess I'll keep trudging along to find that perfect solution to the natural preservative question.
Heck there's gotta be something! I mean look at those mummies (oh, formaldehyde, well let's keep thinking). Reason I stopped with the opinions before was the rebel was coming out in me (and yes I'm a bit of a hippie too) and the naturalist hairs on my back were begining to rise! But I'm ok now, I think. :roll:
It may take me a while, but I am determined to find a solution (that's the analyst in me - notice the first part of that word - yeah I'm that too!)
Ok - I'm signing off now. Think I had too much sugar or something


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## Guest

My 2 cents worth. 

I agree with Paul, I do not use GSE, Vit E for a preserv. I use Phenionp and Germaben !!. 
Although Rosemary Oil, and GSE, as well as Xanthum Gum is suppose to work.. I have not tested it. 

But I will say with the preservs  that I do use, have lasted well over a year for me, with no problem. 

I also include it into my scrubs, simply because they are near water. Lotions, creams, and some salves (some salves sit close to the bathroom sink :wink: )


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## Zenobiah

Well, EagleHeart, make sure you come back and tell us if you find a reliable natural preservative that is scientifically tested and is anti-fungal and anti-germy because I really want to use that rather than an artificial preservative.


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## Becky

This one has recently become available on one of the websites that I order from:

http://www.aussiesoapsupplies.com.au/Pr ... r-856.html

*Preservative NB *
Preservative NB consists of a combination of Benzoic Acid and Sorbic Acid in Benzyl Alcohol. It does not contain parabens, formaldehyde or formaldehyde-releasing substances and is classed as "Natural" under the German BDIH recommendation for Natural Cosmetic Products and is compliant with EU Cosmetics Directives. Preservative NB can be processed at temperatures of up to 80 Degrees Celsius. Suitable for use in Creams & Lotions, Shampoos and Bath Products, Gels and Foam Baths. 

If you intend to make this "natural" claim in Australia please check with the TGA for guidance. We are not able to offer advice on this subject. 

I haven't tried it or researched it yet, but thought it may be of interest.


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## Zenobiah

I found an interesting alternative in the link that Tabitha sent in another thread, http://happi.com/articles/2007/05/prese ... update.php

They mention Cetylpyridinium Chloride. This is something we use in Norway to clean cuts and wounds. It is an over-the-counter chemical, and is considered very safe. The trade name mentioned in the article is ZeStat by Vertellus Spescialties Inc. According to the company website you can use it for:

Hand Sanitizers 
Shampoos 
Hair Sprays 
Body Lotions, Gels, Creams and Oils 
Baby Wipes and Bath Wash 
Cosmetics 
Pet and Animal Care Products

The problem is to find a place you can buy it... I will try to contact the company and find some prices too if I can. And make sure it does not contain parabens, formaldehyde or other nasties.


I also found a test at home kit for lotions: http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/chek-it.html


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## Zenobiah

Found an interesting discussion in another forum. I guess a lot of us are in the same boat:

http://www.soapdishforum.com/forum/inde ... opic=79607


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## Tabitha

This is an age old delima.

Are you wanting to make items for personal use or to sell? If it is for personal use you can just make small qtys at a time and keep them in the fridge for shorter amounts of time.

If you are planning on sellling your items the TGA (as Becky mentioned) should have a list of preserves they permit.

The FDA does not recognize natural preserves in cosmetics but they do in pet  products like doggie shampoo & I think *some* in foods but can't swear to that.


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## Tabitha

Zen, I PMed you.


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## Zenobiah

Thanks, Tabitha. What is the TGA?  :?:


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## Becky

The TGA is the Theraputic Goods Association, one of the Australian regulatory bodies for soaps, cosmetics, etc.


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## leansoapqueen

I like Germaben and Potassium Sorbate for my shower soap!


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## Zenobiah

Take a look at this lotion:

http://www.etsy.com/view_listing.php?listing_id=7222927

It does not contain water and according to this listing AND their website http://www.thelotetree.com there is no preservatives in it. Is it safe to use beyond two weeks?

Or are they a lawsuit waiting to happen... 

I don't feel comfortable using Germaben from what I have read about it, but that's just me. But that NB stuff sounds interesting. Hard to use, but interesting.


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## leansoapqueen

I have sensitive skin and Germaben is fine for me.  That lotion doesn't have water listed in their ingredients- I would ask them if they put H2O in it- if so then it may not be safe. If not Vitamin E should be ok in there...
Looks good though- flavorwise.


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## Tabitha

It does not list the ingredients so it *may* have water in it. They did not list it as a material but that is just for the sake of searchable meta-tags.

If there is NO water it looks safe, that just means it's oils so whatever the shelf life of the oils are is the shelf life of the lotion.

I would email her & ask if there is water in it. Let us know what you find out.


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## leansoapqueen

Seriously guys- I'm really proud of my shower soap it took me a long time to formulate it- test it- etc.. I use it mostly everyday unless I get bored with my scent then i make more- i make it in small batches big pita - I have used Germaben in it- not good for soap- I know so for the past 2 months I have used Potassium Sorbate- this discussion reminded me to edit my listing to include it -oops!
  I have never had a mold issue at all that would be yucky using either one- that would be gross! So I think for those of you who want another preservative idea it may work for you.
Also, there is a fine line between using a preservative and a base laden with alcohol and chemicals- and I'm really grateful and proud to be part of a group  cares what people put on their skin whether or not your selling or giving it away! Presevatives or not!


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## Zenobiah

Ok, I wrote her and asked what the shelf-life of the lotion is. If it doesn't contain water, how long a shelf-life would it have? Months? A year?


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## leansoapqueen

Awesome I'll be interested to find out!


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## Zenobiah

She answered: Yes, there is water- it is made in very small sterile batches. - I recommend it be thrown out before 6 months. 


 :shock:  :shock:  :shock:


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## leansoapqueen

Hmmm?   :shock: 

Thanks for checking- I may have to stay away from that one. I was going to try to make my own base but I think maybe I'll be able to find a good one that is semi natural and safe (preserved)- hopefully!


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## Zenobiah

Yeah, me too. Shucks, bummer! Hey, lean, I used to live not too far from Buffalo Grove.


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## leansoapqueen

Oh yeah- pm me- with whereabouts! Are you in IL now?
Danni


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## Soapmaker Man

leansoapqueen said:
			
		

> Oh yeah- pm me- with whereabouts! Are you in IL now?
> Danni



I think many thousands miles away!    She will tell you or take a look at her intro. :wink: 

Paul.... :wink:


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## leansoapqueen

Yep she is many miles away!


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## Zenobiah

Not for long! We're moving back to IL (Carbondale area) in 2-3 months.


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## Soapmaker Man

Zenobiah said:
			
		

> Not for long! We're moving back to IL (Carbondale area) in 2-3 months.



Cool, 8)  not a long way from us here in SW Missouri!   

Paul....  :wink:


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## leansoapqueen




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## leansoapqueen

Back to the US- woo hoo!


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## Zenobiah

Yeah, that is why I can't stock up on ingredients right now. I need to wait until we move.


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## EagleHeart

ok - since this is near the top again, I have some questions maybe someone here has answers to.

   It would help my pursuit for a reliable natural preservative if I knew the strain of beasts we're talking about. Such as the strain of bacteria or fungus/mold. I was hoping that maybe soneone who has had their products tested might know this answer?

   As I said, I'm not giving up quite yet. It may take awhile, but I will either be successful or fold!
   I too use a very sterile environment, but it's not perfect so there may be a chance of something getting in. I work outside the home in a lab, but unfortunately do not have one at home for my prodcuts. But do have a very clean dedicated environment and habits. Although I've only been diluting bases that already have a preservative or making no water recipes.

   I've been curious as to how much water I can add to these bases with the perservative in them before I become 'unbalanced'. Also wondering about the waters. If I'm using distilled or de-ionized water, aren't they sterile already? So if manufacturing in a clean environment, where is the introduction of the unfriendlies coming from? (given of course you are CERTAIN everythings clean!). I guess I just answered that last one myself...
EH


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## Tabitha

The problem is, you can sell a 100% sterile product but the second your customer buys your product all sorts of things will be introduced to it. What if they open it up, add a tabelspoon of tap water & shake cause they want it thinner? What if their 4 y/o sticks her booger finger in it to see if it smells good or the lid gets dropped on the floor of the bathroom & urine  gets on that lid & the lid placed back on the bottle? Lots of things will happen to your product after your customer takes possesion of it.


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## Soapmaker Man

Great answer, Tab!    One has to watch out for the integrity of our product even after it reaches the customers hand! :?   I guarantee they would _blame us_ and _not_ their bugger infested fingered poking  kid! :shock: 
That is the world we live in....law suit happy!  Sad.  

Like I've stated several times, I would _love_ to use a natural preservative, but the possibility of someone getting hurt even if it is their fault, and I just cant afford being sued.

Paul....  :wink:


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## thelotetree

*Lotion*

Hello to all. I am against any kind of artificial preservatives in lotion. I have been selling this lotion for YEARS and have never had a problem. There ARE other companies (fairly large) who sell lotion without added chemicals. The reason I am writing this is because, I am getting click throughs from this forum and I would like some air time so that people don't base judgment on your opinions. Congratulations on your impending move to Carbondale, my home town. We are an open and fun filled community. I'm sure you'll fit right in!


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## leansoapqueen

Ewwwwwwww= Tab said urine- LOL.
The 6 year old kid in me just came out- sorry-


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## Zenobiah

Hi! I am not basing my opinion on the need for preservatives on my opinion, I wanted to not have to use it at all. But quickly found out that was not a good idea, based on the research I found on the internet. I had hoped that you had found some great way of making lotions without using water and was really psyched about it. Sorry to drag you into this, don't mean to put you on the spot.

I have just updated my blog with my recent findings when it comes to preservatives:

http://zenobiahnaturalbeauty.blogspot.c ... tives.html


Please take a look and tell me if I missed something or got something wrong.


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## leansoapqueen

Carbondale is a fun and open town- 

Well said Zen, while we all want to use the least amount of Chemicals as possible. It really isn't a good idea in a water based lotion which is the bottom line- I still would like to not use them myself but the preservative I use especially in my shower wash- don't effect my allergic skin and keep my wash nice and white instead of green and moldy- I'm probably guessing that most people would like a white shower wash instead of green...
Preservatives take research and awhile to come across one that is right for your product..


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## Zenobiah

> Preservatives take research and awhile to come across one that is right for your product..



So I am gathering, leansoap. I have found other preservatives too, but they are not for sale in most webshops so I didn't add them to my list. I htink I will stick with anything that at least does not have parabens and release formaldehyde.


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## leansoapqueen

That's pretty much what I stick to as well- buying or selling, though Germaben which I have used is paraben but I'm switching it up.


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## Zenobiah

I updated my preservative overview with INCI names and whatnot:

http://zenobiahnaturalbeauty.blogspot.c ... tives.html


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## brian0523

There are just now some new preservatives coming onto the market that offer an alternative to the parabens, etc. that we have had to use in the past.

I hate to give away my "trade secrets" but in this case, I think this will benefit all of us including our customers.

I've been using Optiphen, which I personally feel more comfortable using than the old preservative systems.  I can attest to it's efficacy. I have a jar of body cream made with Optiphen that's almost 14 months old sitting in my bathroom closet, and it's still clean of any mold, etc. Of course I cannot do a bacteria test here since I don't have a lab, but the makers of Optiphen have done such tests, which I feel are reliable.

Although Optiphen is not "natural" in any way, after reading the scientific data, I feel more comfortable using this preservative in my products. Right now, this product, is as good as it gets.  Also Optiphen has not been shown to mimic estrogen in the body like the parabens do, which is a huge plus for me.

Optiphen:
Optiphen is a unique liquid preservative formulation which consists of phenoxyethanol and an emollient base. The combination of these ingredients provides optimized protection against microbial growth from bacteria and yeast while giving the finished product exceptional feel. It can be used alone and functions synergistically with other preservatives. Optiphen is applicable for use in a variety of personal care preparations such as aqueous and anhydrous systems as well as emulsions.


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## Zenobiah

I know, Optiphen is on the list I posted and it is the best one I have found so far.


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## Birdie

Since this thread is not too old I thought it safe to post here. And my disclaimer - IMHO

I have used both Biopein and Suprapein. The lotion using Biopein was made 9March06 and the one made using Suprapein, 10Oct06. I still have one bottle of each that I "challange tested" on my own. I also have a bottle of each that has, since they were made, been opened for nothing except to sniff. None of the lotion in either of the bottles shows any sign of growing anything, mold or otherwise. They still smell like the day they were bottled.

Now, having said that, I will tell you why I don't sell them. I am an earthy, woodsy, herby scent type of gal. Love 'em. But most people, I have found, are not so inclined. My testers all found the scent of these 2 preservatives very offensive! I thought I had it whooped when I used a blend of neroli and chamomile in the last one. I thought it enhanced, no, enchanted!, the scent, but no-go. 
It is the scent of these that are not acceptable. They do exactly what they are claimed to do (although I did not get lab-proof) but the intense herbal scent just turns people off. If it were not for that I would use them in a heartbeat and sell the product. Right now, though, I am content just enjoying it myself. :wink: 

GSE is more effective when used in conjunction with potassium sorbate. It is said they compliment each other "in their duties" and are quite effective when used together. Having them both here, I intend trying them in that capacity as soon as I get (or make) the time. 
I am not one to take anybody's word if they cannot give me proof that makes sense and cannot be denied. These articles attacking the use of GSE have been around for years and years and yet there are still large successful companies using it. I have not heard of any 3rd noses or extra arms, even toes, being grown from their use. "They" are going to have to present me with more believeable evidence to make me believe their accusations. The article at Snowdrift Farm is more closely related to the truth than any I have seen.

The gist of this thread is about the newly intro-ed Citrozine. I must say that I _will_ try it; don't know when but I will, probably when I make an order for more azulene from Aromantic. 
It is also an Aussie product. It's description under its name Citrofresh is not too far off from the one given about the other Aussie one (I can't get to that post while I am in reply!). I will be watching this extremely close.

In the meantime, as I said, I am content using up the wonderfully intensly herbal scented lotion no one seems to appreciate.  Ah-h-h-h...


ets:emphasis


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## jelly

*preservatives*

Just FYI

3 ingredients (usually?) found in Germaben are banned in either Europe or Japan:  Diazolidinyl urea banned in Europe for a huge variety of problems including carcinogen, chest pain, headaches, dizziness and immune dysfunction; Methylparaben and propylparaben - banned in Japan and Sweden and under review in the UK - problems as  hormone dirupter, estrogenic, linked to breast cancer and skin rashes.  See greenlivingonline for information.

Yes, if anyone knows of a natural preservative let us know.  Am looking for one.


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## digitalmayhem

Naturaguard  see DIYCosmetics


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## jayb1

*Sugar Scrubs*

I need help. I am in the process of buying the products for my sugar scrubs and and torn between the preservatives. I want to ask does anyone know how all these natural companies can sell natural products and stay in business without using preservatives?

I plan on selling my sugar scrubs and body oils and just want to make sure I am making a product that is not damaging to the skin nor harmful as well.

Also, does anyone know of a good body butter recipe and instructions on how to make it?
Pls help


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