# Lotion is a pain



## hmlove1218 (Nov 23, 2015)

Almost every single time I make lotion, I get this.. What am I doing wrong??

Procedure:
Measure out water phase, measure out and melt oil phase. Heat and hold for 20 minutes at 180°F.
Measure out cool down ingredients. 
Allow oil and water phases to come down under 140°F.
Pour water phase into oil phase while blending with a milk frother to prevent clumping, pour mix back into water phase container. Add cool down ingredients and mix with stick blender.

Ingredients:

274g rosewater made with distilled water
7g glycerin
7g aloe Vera gel

14g e-wax (traditional from WSP)
14g Aryan
14g jojoba
7g cetyl alcohol

3.5g vitamin e
5.5g optophen plus 

Thank you in advanced for the help. Meanwhile, I'll be banging my head on a wall...


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## mazimazi (Nov 23, 2015)

Hi, 
Is there any chance you rewrite you recipe in percetnages? Makes it easier to fugure out the proportions of water and oil phases.

Thanks!


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## kchaystack (Nov 23, 2015)

You should add your water and oil phase when they are both still at top temp.  

I would also switch to a hand mixer or stick blender, to make sure your getting enough agitation in your emulsion.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 23, 2015)

Definitely what KC said. Absolutely do not cool before combining the oil phase with the water phase and mixing. And definitely use higher intensity mixing. If you cannot use a stick blender then use a kitchen mixer on high speed. A frother just isn't good enough.

You may have confused the temp of 140 when you add the cool down ingredients as the temp for your initial mixing, and they're two separate steps. High shear and warmer temps for your initial mixing will help a lot. 

You have plenty of emulsifier and thickener in proportion to the oil phase total weight, but I have to say this is a high-water recipe (84% water phase) and they are a little more tricky to keep emulsified. If you continue to have separation despite better mixing at a higher temp, you may need to increase your emulsifier and thickener a wee bit to help stabilize the emulsion a little better. 

But definitely follow KC's advice first and see if that solves the problem, because you really need to make those two changes in your technique to get the best results from any lotion you make.


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## lsg (Nov 23, 2015)

Suan suggests pouring the oil phase into the water phase instead of the other way around.  I always boil a little extra water to make up for the water loss during the heat and hold.  You will need to weigh the water phase before heating and holding.  I heat both phases in the Mircowave and then put them in a 170*F oven for 20 minutes.  I second the suggestion of using a stick blender or portable mixer.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1020026/lotionmakingtutorial.pdf


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## Muskette (Nov 23, 2015)

In addition to what everyone else suggested, I'd like to add that you should be mixing for a full 2-3 minutes when you first combine the oil and water phases. It'll seem like a long time, but it's really necessary for a stable emulsion.  Also, when adding cool down ingredients, mix for at least a full minute.


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## hmlove1218 (Nov 23, 2015)

Thank you everyone! I'm apologize, I confused everyone when I mentioned the milk frother.. I do use a stick blender to to the major mixing, I just use the frother for the initial blast to keep my waxes/oils from resolidifying just in case (which I won't have to do anymore since y'all say I'm mixing at the wrong temps  ). With this small amount, I didn't have a container the correct size to get my stick blender fully submerged until after everything was blended together and poured into my mixing container.




DeeAnna said:


> You may have confused the temp of 140 when you add the cool down ingredients as the temp for your initial mixing, and they're two separate steps. High shear and warmer temps for your initial mixing will help a lot.
> 
> You have plenty of emulsifier and thickener in proportion to the oil phase total weight, but I have to say this is a high-water recipe (84% water phase) and they are a little more tricky to keep emulsified. If you continue to have separation despite better mixing at a higher temp, you may need to increase your emulsifier and thickener a wee bit to help stabilize the emulsion a little better.




Thanks DeeAnna! I was definitely confusing the temps. I was under the impression that the cool down ingredients had to be incorporated prior to mixing.




lsg said:


> Suan suggests pouring the oil phase into the water phase instead of the other way around.  I always boil a little extra water to make up for the water loss during the heat and hold.  You will need to weight the water phase before heating and holding.  I heat both phases in the Mircowave and then put them in a 170*F oven for 20 minutes.  I second the suggestion of using a stick blender or portable mixer.
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1020026/lotionmakingtutorial.pdf




Thanks lsg!




Muskette said:


> In addition to what everyone else suggested, I'd like to add that you should be mixing for a full 2-3 minutes when you first combine the oil and water phases. It'll seem like a long time, but it's really necessary for a stable emulsion.  Also, when adding cool down ingredients, mix for at least a full minute.



I was definitely mixing for long enough then ha. I probably mixed this batch on and off for 30 minutes trying to get it to come together..


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## kumudini (Nov 23, 2015)

Yeah, definitely mix right after the holding phase. The optiphen plus goes in after the lotion cools down below 45 Celsius, must be some 110 Fahrenheit. Also, my first thought looking at your picture was air space. Or was it separation? If it is the air, I would suggest you bottling up while the lotion is still fairly liquid and gently tap on the counter to release the air.
Isg, do the liquids stay at 170 degrees for the required amount of time when you pop them in the oven?


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## hmlove1218 (Nov 23, 2015)

No its unfortunately separated water :/ This morning, the whole bottom half is clear water and the top half is opaque.


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## Dahila (Nov 23, 2015)

I agree with above KC but I also wonder what is the temp when you add your Optiphen plus, it is famous for causing separation in lotions but i use it without any issue ,  You need to add when the temp is lower than 40 Celsius)


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## hmlove1218 (Nov 23, 2015)

Ok, how much would you suggest bumping up my amount of ewax and cetyl? Tried again tonight and mixed right after hearing and holding. Got this.... No optiphen added yet, so that didn't cause the problem..

Just as an FYI, I've made this lotion several times before without problems, but the past 6 times I've made it, it's failed each and every time.. I don't know what's causing it


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## houseofwool (Nov 23, 2015)

Could it be a bad batch of relax?  I don't use cetyl in my lotions. But if things worked before, what has changed?  A new batch of ingredients?


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## hmlove1218 (Nov 23, 2015)

Aside from the optiphen, nothing is new. And, as much as I'd like to blame the optiphen, I hadn't put it in this batch yet, so it can't be causing the problem.

Eta, Well I say nothing's new, but I guess there are some new things. I'm on a new bottle of distilled water, and I'm using roses from WSP instead of my own garden to make the rose water, but I can't imagine that would have anything to do with this.. Could it?


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## mazimazi (Nov 24, 2015)

Lotions tend to have a mind of their own.
I've seen changes and some separation when I switched rose hydrosol provider. 

Firstly, with that big amout of water (water phase 81%), I woul suggest a water phase stabilizer, something like xanthan gum.
Scondly, while the phases are very hot, there will be some separation. I stick blend the phases together, then stir and SB occasionally while it cools down. When it cools down, I thoroughly SB again. 
Thirdly, are you sure you need 2% of your preservative? Caprylyl glycol is famous for destabilizing sensitive emulsions. I get some separation after the addion of it, I SB my ass of, and then it is OK.

So, to sum it up, xanthan gum to stabilize water phase, less preservative (1,5% should do), SB while phases are hot, durring coll down every now and then, and again while they cool down.

This works for my manj lotions.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 24, 2015)

Boy, you had a complete failure there; whattamess.  I can see why you're frustrated. I am beginning to wonder what is going on. 

Are you willing to try an experiment? Try this base recipe using just plain water, the same total weight of oils, and the same cetyl and e-wax weights. Leave out the preservative and vitamin E for the moment. In other words, strip this recipe down to the bare bones and see if you can get a stable emulsion with a very simple recipe. There are so many variables with your recipe, the only way to pinpoint the trouble is to go back to basics. Since you're using heat-and-hold and mixing well when the lotion is hot, you should be getting a stable emulsion.

If you want to play with the existing recipe ingredients, here are some things to consider. I'd do them one at a time -- if you make too many changes too fast, you won't know what solved the problem!

Increase your e-wax from 4% of the total to 5%. In other words, go from 14 g to 17 g.
Reduce the amount of water so the total water phase is about 80% rather than the current 84%. This is going to still make a light lotion.

Mazi -- I am thinking you may want to recheck your math. You are saying the Optiphen is 2% of the recipe, but I'm coming up with Optiphen at 3.5 g in 344 g total. That would put the preservative at a little over 1%. ???


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## hmlove1218 (Nov 24, 2015)

Thanks guys! DeeAnna, I'm definitely up for an experiment. I have no idea why this recipe has suddenly started failing catastrophically and would really like to. If stripping it to bare bones doesn't fix it, I'll up the ewax as you suggested


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## Dahila (Nov 24, 2015)

houseofwool said:


> Could it be a bad batch of relax?  I don't use cetyl in my lotions. But if things worked before, what has changed?  A new batch of ingredients?


How would you know how much use of E-wax
I use cetyl in all lotions it helps to stabilize the lotion and gives a nice glide to skin.  Ewax or polawax must be no less than 25 % of your oils butters, and thickeners.  
I.e.
20 % Oil
5% butters.
5 % cetyl (I use 2-3
7.5% of Ewax in this situation
that lotion is garbage I do not think you can save it.   Percentage baby percentage so you can do any amount of lotion you want)
If you use Essential oils include them in the calculation


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## mazimazi (Nov 24, 2015)

The original post says 5.5 g optiphen, or have I got it mixed up. All together there is 346 g of batch. I misscalculated something, this would mean 1.5%. For this exact reason I asked to write the percentages of the formulation, so much easier to se what it looks like and we dont all have to do the math..


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## hmlove1218 (Nov 24, 2015)

My original notes are..

274g (79.3%) rose water
7g (2%) aloe gel
7g (2%) glycerin

14g (4%) argan oil
14g (4%) jojoba oil
14g (4%) e-wax
7 g (2%) cetyl alcohol

5g (1.5%) optiphen plus (sorry, I had an error in the first post I caught after looking at my notes again)
3.5g (1%) vitamin e
no EO/FO in this batch.  When I add it, I pull it from the water.


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## Dahila (Nov 24, 2015)

You should have 6 grams of Ewax, VE is used at 0.1 I think, Optiphen plus at 1% is maximum so do not put more than that. However in this situation it would not do harm.  I have no idea why you failed this time.  that much ewax should make lotion very thick but should not separate.  
I hope you heat and hold for 20 min at the temps of 70 celsius and mix in warm up pot, or beaker
everything needs to be warm 
still I would sit down and try to do max of water 80, I usually do 80 for very light lotion but it is difficult to achieve with ewax,  I use for that Bmts-50. Lets say you have
73% Water (hydrosol included but not all water should be hydrosol) 
25% oils (emulsifier included)
1% optiphen added lower than 45 celsius
1% fragrance 
if you want to add VE take the amount from water.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 24, 2015)

Mazi -- I stand corrected. I don't know how many times I read the optiphen % and saw it incorrectly as 3.5 grams. I apologize!

Dahlia -- Yes, I agree that 84% water phase in this recipe is higher than what I have made. That is one concern I have about this recipe. I think a higher % of e-wax will be needed to make a stable emulsion, compared with the usual rate of 25% based on the oil-phase ingredients. 

When I make a lotion that has 80% water phase, the result is a very light lotion that is good for the face, but too light for the body.


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## Dahila (Nov 24, 2015)

Deeanna I had made 80 water only with Bmts-50, and it is an awesome emulsifier,  My lotion is very light like mouse ,  very nice though) with addition of Silk Amino acids, simply wonderful) 
I am not even sure Ewax will emulsify it, even if is more. ............it is something I must make to know for sure, next project will be 80 %water with ewax.  ) With that much water it could be also Optiphen destabilizing it..
I agree for face it would be awesome, but body not so much.  Especially now when the winter came.  Skin tend to dry a lot.
I wonder what is this dark color?


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## mazimazi (Nov 25, 2015)

I was wondering about the color too.

Anyways, i really believe xanthan gum will make a difference if you are making high water lotion, try it and report back


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## Dahila (Nov 25, 2015)

xantham gum does not bring benefits for skin, not at all it just make it thicker, gel like


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## mazimazi (Nov 25, 2015)

Since cosmetology is my field, I can assure you that most literature about cosmetic formulation states that water phase needs a stabilizer. If you put the lotion we are talking about through stability testing, it would probably fail. Xanthan is not only thickener, but also stabilizer, its probably the most natural and harmless one. Lotions require a couple of ingredients that dont have any benefit for the skin, they need to be there to make the product usable and safe - think emulsifier, preservative...


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## Dahila (Nov 25, 2015)

I use emulsifier (Bmts-50 brings a lot of conditioning to skin) othewise how would you mix oil and water, it does not mix) I do not question your knowledge but I had never use xanthan gum, and really I probably have done more than 100 lotions.


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## lsg (Nov 26, 2015)

Dahlia, I have never used xanthan gum either, but I use BTMS-50 which works as an emulsifier. It also acts as an thickener.  Or I use e-wax and (cetyl alcohol or stearic acid), either of these work as a thickener.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 26, 2015)

This is probably a "different strokes for different folks" kind of situation. 

I think the recommendation for using the xanthan gum might be in response to the very high water content in this recipe. Xanthan gum is a water soluble thickener, so it's going to act somewhat differently and maybe more effectively in this type of recipe than an oil-soluble thickener such as cetyl alcohol and stearic acid and an emulsifier which is also oil-soluble.

I know some liquid soap makers use xanthan gum and other water-soluble thickeners to make their liquid soap thicker. Liquid soap is often pretty high in water, and an oil soluble thickener wouldn't work very well. Perhaps this concept applies to this particular lotion as well.

Just thinking out loud about this.....


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## mazimazi (Nov 27, 2015)

Oh, I wasn't very clear about the percentages used. I use it about 0,5%, this doesn't really make may lotion thicker (like 4% of cetyl alcohol ar stearic acid does) or slimier (like A LOT of xanthan can do) but it just keeps sensitive emulsion from separating. The skin feel is still the same, the thickness of en product also. But it is a pain to mix it in the water phase though, I only use it when making batches large enough to be thoroughly mixed with stick blender.


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## hmlove1218 (Dec 1, 2015)

Ok, finally got to make the stripped lotion and it set up beautifully. Should I try lowering the rose water percentage and making up for it with plain distilled water?


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## Dahila (Dec 1, 2015)

I would not use all rose water.  My hydrosol usually is 40% of water phase.  There go protein, panthenol, SL or glycerin.  If you use Honeyquat (love it) use is in cool down phase, 
I wonder my son complains that the aftershave lotion goes into skin so fast  jeez he does not know what he talking about.  He wants something which stays on skin,  some occluding agent.  Then butters are not good idea for face, what do you recommend ladies and gentlemen?  
I thought it suppose to go into skin) my hubby loves that aftershave


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## hmlove1218 (Dec 3, 2015)

Thanks Dahilia! I cut it down to just under 40% and only had a tiny bit of separation. I'm going to make it again and try 30%


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## mymy (Dec 3, 2015)

i wonder if we can use lotion on our face.  i mean, we make it by ourselves and we do know what kind of ingredients are in it. body butter might be a little bit heavy for face compared with lotion?hmmmm


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## hmlove1218 (Dec 3, 2015)

That's actually what I've been making this lotion for mymy  so far, everyone that has tried it has really liked it


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## mymy (Dec 3, 2015)

okay, I'm the only one left behind.  hehe.  when i read the word 'lotion' my head automatically translates it as 'body lotion'. thank you hmlove1218


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## Dahila (Dec 3, 2015)

mymy said:


> i wonder if we can use lotion on our face.  i mean, we make it by ourselves and we do know what kind of ingredients are in it. body butter might be a little bit heavy for face compared with lotion?hmmmm


I make face creams it is different a bit than body butter,  it is lighter, and I mostly use "dry oils" Macademia, Abyssinian,  hazelnut..........  
If you want to check it; https://www.facebook.com/danabathandbodycare/
I make my facial products for a very long time,  in a month it will be 3 years, and my skin is really good)


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## mymy (Dec 3, 2015)

Dahila said:


> I make face creams it is different a bit than body butter,  it is lighter, and I mostly use "dry oils" Macademia, Abyssinian,  hazelnut..........
> If you want to check it; https://www.facebook.com/danabathandbodycare/
> I make my facial products for a very long time,  in a months it will be 3 years, and my skin is really good)



your products are gorgeous! i keep scrolling more and more


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