# Olive oil vs Olive Pomace



## sheilaohga

When you use Olive Pomace for olive oil, do you write Olive Pomace or just Olive Oil as the recipe you used?
Is there big difference in these two oils?
Would it be false description if I put Olive oil instead of Olive Pomace?
There is a big price difference so if there is not much difference with soap, I would go for Pomace.
But if there is some difference than I should consider it a bit more.

Thank you.


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## earlene

Do you mean on the label?  Or on the recipe you keep so you can later duplicate your soap?  On the label I don't think it matters.  But on the recipe it matters a lot.  The SAP value for them is not the same, so your results in your lye calculator are going to be different if you decide to run it through again for any other changes.  

But as far as putting it on a label to include the oils in the soap, Olive Oil is all that you need.  Or Sodium Olivate.  If you look at the saponified INCI terms, all types of saponified OO are called 'Sodium Olivate'.

ETA:  I meant to mention the fact that pomace OO traces much faster than regular OO, and that makes a difference in a recipe. And the SAP values are actually almost the same, a couple of numbers are different, but not by much.


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## sheilaohga

Label-wise: I want to put correct ingredient so it doesn't imply false description. But if I can just put Olive Oil whether I used the Pomace or not then it doesn't matter.
Recipe-wise : ok I see that the two are different.

Thank you for the clear instruction!!!


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## penelopejane

In Australia you can't label Olive Pomace oil as Olive oil. I don't know about other countries. I personally would not buy soap made from Pomace and is part of the reason I make my own soap so I know what actually goes in it.


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## Gerry

penelopejane said:


> In Australia you can't label Olive Pomace oil as Olive oil. I don't know about other countries.



Are you sure about that?  Your government seems to allow INCI ingredient labeling just like here in Canada: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2008C00244

In section 6 (2) of your cosmetic labeling government regulations it says:  "The names of the ingredients in the list must be either their English names or their International Nomenclature Cosmetic Ingredient names."

The INCI name for Olive Pomace oil, Virgin Olive Oil, and Extra Virgin Olive Oil is "Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil".  It looks like that name should suffice for any of these 3 for legal compliance in Australia.  Correct me if I'm reading a fake site!  (It's happened before...)


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## topofmurrayhill

I don't know if it's relevant in any way to this type of product labeling, but for purposes of selling oil you aren't supposed to sell olive pomace oil as olive oil in the USA. For soaping purposes the fatty acid profiles are the same. 

As a bit of trivia, the old timey name for the pomace oil is olive foots.


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## penelopejane

Gerry said:


> Are you sure about that?  Your government seems to allow INCI ingredient labeling just like here in Canada: https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2008C00244
> 
> In section 6 (2) of your cosmetic labeling government regulations it says:  "The names of the ingredients in the list must be either their English names or their International Nomenclature Cosmetic Ingredient names."
> 
> The INCI name for Olive Pomace oil, Virgin Olive Oil, and Extra Virgin Olive Oil is "Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil".  It looks like that name should suffice for any of these 3 for legal compliance in Australia.  Correct me if I'm reading a fake site!  (It's happened before...)



See: 
http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/groceries/olive-oil
"It is illegal for olive oil suppliers to mislead or deceive consumers or make misleading claims or representations. This includes claims about the standard, grade or quality of olive oil."


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## Gerry

penelopejane said:


> See:
> http://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/groceries/olive-oil
> "It is illegal for olive oil suppliers to mislead or deceive consumers or make misleading claims or representations. This includes claims about the standard, grade or quality of olive oil."



For sure.  In Canada as well.  For example Walmart would get into a lot of trouble if they started selling pomace olive oil with an extra virgin olive oil label.  But that's a different subject entirely.

There is nothing misleading or deceiving about using the correct INCI name for an ingredient in a cosmetic.

Edit:  Now if you've used a very high grade of extra virgin olive oil and want to be more specific for label appeal, the English name would be a better option than the INCI name in countries that allow English names in addition to INCI names.  In countries where only INCI names are allowed for the actual ingredient list, one could simply name their soap with the phrase "Extra Virgin Olive..." or include the information elsewhere apart from the ingredient list.


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## traderbren

sheilaohga said:


> There is a big price difference so if there is not much difference with soap, I would go for Pomace.



Olive Oil can be quite cheap if you source it locally from a grocery store or warehouse club. You don't need Extra Virgin Olive Oil for soap (it's far too expensive to soap with unless you need to). A 5 liter jug of 100% olive oil was about $20 at BJ's (warehouse club) the last time I bought it. As an added bonus, you can still cook with it.

For reference, I looked at Bulk Apothecary since you mentioned using an EO from there in a different thread. A 7.5 lb container of Pomace is $20.50, plus shipping. Five liters is roughly equivalent to 11 lbs.

Since I soap solely as a hobby and not for business, I try to buy as many oils locally to keep my costs down.


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## earlene

traderbren said:


> Olive Oil can be quite cheap if you source it locally from a grocery store or warehouse club. You don't need Extra Virgin Olive Oil for soap (it's far too expensive to soap with unless you need to). A 5 liter jug of 100% olive oil was about $20 at BJ's (warehouse club) the last time I bought it. As an added bonus, you can still cook with it.
> 
> For reference, I looked at Bulk Apothecary since you mentioned using an EO from there in a different thread. A 7.5 lb container of Pomace is $20.50, plus shipping. Five liters is roughly equivalent to 11 lbs.
> 
> Since I soap solely as a hobby and not for business, I try to buy as many oils locally to keep my costs down.



But that's not true for everyone all over the world.  Even in the USA, prices vary depending on where you live (or travel) and so forth.  I like pomace for it's faster tracing tendency, but until my town grocer started carrying it, I could not fine for miles around.  It's not cheaper than the regular OO I get at Sam's Club, though.  And I have read members here mention that the least expensive OO for them is EVOO.  I wish that was the case for me, because I prefer EVOO for cooking, but it is what it is.


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## traderbren

earlene said:


> But that's not true for everyone all over the world.  Even in the USA, prices vary depending on where you live (or travel) and so forth.  I like pomace for it's faster tracing tendency, but until my town grocer started carrying it, I could not fine for miles around.  It's not cheaper than the regular OO I get at Sam's Club, though.  And I have read members here mention that the least expensive OO for them is EVOO.  I wish that was the case for me, because I prefer EVOO for cooking, but it is what it is.


I realize it's dependent on location, etc. I was mentioning it as a note that sometimes certain ingredients can be readily found cheaper or more easily locally, in case OP has not checked local sources. I know for me when I was starting, avocado oil was out of my hobbyist price range for quite sometime until I found it locally.


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## sheilaohga

I check the local store and online to find the least expensive oils and it really depends on what oil I buy.
But thank you for your comments. I will keep searching to find the best deal!

Anyway, from what I see from the posts, 
It is not ok to put Olive Oil when I am using the Pomace instead of the regular olive oil.
So I should put on the label, "Pomace" when I actually use pomace, right?

And soap quality wise, how different is it, Pomace vs Olive oil?
I know I should run the lye calculator and all that when making the recipe but with all that done, still what makes better soap?
I saw many people using the pomace instead of olive oil, or is it just personal preference?

Thank you.


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## topofmurrayhill

sheilaohga said:


> Anyway, from what I see from the posts,
> It is not ok to put Olive Oil when I am using the Pomace instead of the regular olive oil. So I should put on the label, "Pomace" when I actually use pomace, right?



The olive oil standards boards define olive oil as coming directly from the olive fruit, without intervening solvents or chemical processes. Olive pomace oil (note the order of the words) cannot be sold as olive oil. However, you are not selling olive oil. It's just an ingredient, not to mention one that is transformed. No matter which oil you use, what comes out of the pot is sodium olivate.

So I'd throw my hat in with Gerry on just using whatever the corresponding INCI name is. Cosmetic and food labeling could be different in this respect. Pending further info, nobody is going to castigate you for listing olive oil when you use pomace oil in a product like soap.

When simply talking about it, I prefer to stick with the official industry terminology and not call it pomace olive oil. If you want to find out more about the grades, you can look up olive oil and olive pomace oil (separate article) in Wikipedia. You can also Google some very informative olive oil standards documents, which seem to be quite similar around the world.



sheilaohga said:


> And soap quality wise, how different is it, Pomace vs Olive oil? I know I should run the lye calculator and all that when making the recipe but with all that done, still what makes better soap?
> I saw many people using the pomace instead of olive oil, or is it just personal preference?



Pomace oil should have the same fatty acid profile as olive oil, so they are equivalent in results apart from variations in trace speed and color.

To make matters a tiny bit more confusing, there are actually three different kinds of this product. Crude olive pomace oil is the initial inedible stuff. Refined olive pomace oil has been made edible. And what you'll see sometimes in the stores is olive pomace oil that has been blended with virgin (unrefined) olive oil.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

And at the end of the day, when you give it to family they aren't going to be making much of a fuss about it - they will just be thankful for their lovely soaps!


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## penelopejane

Why not be honest with the oils you use and declare the olive Pomace oil. Then those that choose not to use it can. 

This dishonesty is what led me to make soap for myself and is why I would never buy handmade soap from the internet unless I knew I could trust the supplier to use first class ingredients. The chemicals used to make Pomace are not great. Why not let people choose?


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## Gerry

penelopejane said:


> Why not be honest with the oils you use and declare the olive Pomace oil. Then those that choose not to use it can



Not providing the grade of oils used to make soap isn't in dishonesty in my opinion, provided of course that the grade is allowable for use in the intended product for the intended use.  

In your case I would look for the words "Extra Virgin Olive Oil" somewhere in the packaging if that's the grade you need in soaps. If they only give the INCI name, either ask them what grade it is or skip it.

I only use light virgin olive oil in all my soaps simply because it's cheaper than olive pomace oil for me.


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## penelopejane

Gerry said:


> Not providing the grade of oils used to make soap isn't in dishonesty in my opinion, provided of course that the grade is allowable for use in the intended product for the intended use.
> 
> In your case I would look for the words "Extra Virgin Olive Oil" somewhere in the packaging if that's the grade you need in soaps. If they only give the INCI name, either ask them what grade it is or skip it.
> 
> I only use light virgin olive oil in all my soaps simply because it's cheaper than olive pomace oil for me.



Well in Australia if you are going to label your soap as "Ölive Oil" you can't use "Olive pomace Oil". I have never seen a handmade soap using INCI labelling.

We are lucky here because I have never seen Olive Pomace Oil on sale and
EVOO is the same price (on special) as other OOs.  

I make my own soap so I know exactly what goes into it.  I am very fussy, I know, but I just can't trust others to be as fussy so I don't buy stuff on the internet unless I know and can trust the soaper. So many threads on this board and others from blase soapers scare me.  It is my choice.


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## mx5inpenn

penelopejane said:


> I make my own soap so I know exactly what goes into it.  I am very fussy, I know, but I just can't trust others to be as fussy so I don't buy stuff on the internet unless I know and can trust the soaper. So many threads on this board and others from blase soapers scare me.  It is my choice.



I wouldn't say someone choosing to use pomace is blase. Your choice not to, yes. But also theirs to do so. 

Just like some people prefer only EO, their choice. FO could potentially have some not so great stuff in them too. You have to weigh the pros and cons to come to the right choice for you.

It bugs the heck out of me when anyone pushes their preferences, regardless of what they are. I grew up in a very strictly religious home and while my parents meant well, their beliefs and choices are not mine. I spent too many years having to abide by someone else's choices to stand for it now in anything. Everyone can choose for themselves and their choice may be the right one for them, but not for everyone. 

I've never used pomace and have no interest in doing so. I also don't use EVOO in soap. Regular old virgin olive oil is cheaper and for a wash off product, plenty pure enough for my tastes. Needless to say, I cook with the good stuff.


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## penelopejane

mx6inpenn said:


> I wouldn't say someone choosing to use pomace is blase. Your choice not to, yes. But also theirs to do so.
> 
> Just like some people prefer only EO, their choice. FO could potentially have some not so great stuff in them too. You have to weigh the pros and cons to come to the right choice for you.
> 
> It bugs the heck out of me when anyone pushes their preferences, regardless of what they are. I grew up in a very strictly religious home and while my parents meant well, their beliefs and choices are not mine. I spent too many years having to abide by someone else's choices to stand for it now in anything. Everyone can choose for themselves and their choice may be the right one for them, but not for everyone.
> 
> I've never used pomace and have no interest in doing so. I also don't use EVOO in soap. Regular old virgin olive oil is cheaper and for a wash off product, plenty pure enough for my tastes. Needless to say, I cook with the good stuff.



Gosh no, I don't mean using Olive Pomace is blase.  I meant when people say (on a forum) they use different ingredients or additives in soap and don't declare them.  Like M&P makers who say their soap doesn't contain Lye.  If one uses Pomace why not say so on the label?  If makers are scared that it will chase users away don't use it.  Otherwise what can it hurt to declare it? 

The other day on a sugar free recipe site they advertised a recipe as sugar free.  They used condensed milk but still said the recipe was sugar free because they didn't ADD sugar. 

All I am saying is if you declare what you use in your soap then people have a choice.

PJ


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## Gerry

penelopejane said:


> All I am saying is if you declare what you use in your soap then people have a choice.



You'd probably be horrified to know that INCI labeling doesn't require identification of GMO ingredients either.  Nor does it differentiate "organic" ingredients from those that aren't. Like with canola oil, the INCI name is "Brassica Campestris Seed Oil" and that's it.  If a seller wants to differentiate their products and appeal to the demographic looking for non-GMO and organic certified ingredients, they should include it in the description of their product.

I'm not fond of the very green EVOO for castile soap.  It sounds silly, but I prefer the "light tasting" regular virgin olive oil because it gives a lighter bar after months of cure.  Otherwise I don't feel or notice any difference.


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## penelopejane

Gerry said:


> You'd probably be horrified to know that INCI labeling doesn't require identification of GMO ingredients either.  Nor does it differentiate "organic" ingredients from those that aren't. Like with canola oil, the INCI name is "Brassica Campestris Seed Oil" and that's it.  If a seller wants to differentiate their products and appeal to the demographic looking for non-GMO and organic certified ingredients, they should include it in the description of their product.
> 
> I'm not fond of the very green EVOO for castile soap.  It sounds silly, but I prefer the "light tasting" regular virgin olive oil because it gives a lighter bar after months of cure.  Otherwise I don't feel or notice any difference.



In Australia we also don't have any indication that something is GMO. Nor do they have to say "palm oil" is used.  It's just vegetable fat.  So if it says vegetable fat on any processed food it will be palm oil.  If it is some other oil the producer will specify as if it is a miracle: olive oil or sunflower oil etc. 
Organic is written on the packaging of lots of products here.  It's very popular.


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## Relle

penelopejane said:


> We are lucky here because I have never seen Olive Pomace Oil on sale and
> EVOO is the same price (on special) as other OOs.  QUOTE]
> 
> If I want pomace, it is readily available, you only have to know where to look,  I can source it from food manufacturers, close by, reasonably priced. You can also get it from fruit markets, large Italian type deli's. All pomace is not the same, I stick to the one brand as I've found others not so good.
> 
> It's all a matter of personal opinion to use it or not -
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=17554
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=13950
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=11023


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## earlene

Penelope, what is it about Pomace OO in soap that bothers you so much?  Truly, I really am curious what it is about it that is so bad.  I have read a bit about how it's made, but I don't see how that computes into the soap.


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## topofmurrayhill

Using the other labeling option, should we call it sodium olivepomacate?


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## penelopejane

earlene said:


> Penelope, what is it about Pomace OO in soap that bothers you so much?  Truly, I really am curious what it is about it that is so bad.  I have read a bit about how it's made, but I don't see how that computes into the soap.



Earlene, 
I don't like the chemicals (solvents like hexane) and heat they use to extract the oil from the left over pulp, skins and stems after all other extraction methods. I prefer to use cold pressed oil. 

I am one of those people who believe that what you put on your skin is absorbed especially in the heat of a shower. I can make myself sick using soap with ingredients that I am allergic to (not just dermatological reactions) so I know for me that this is true. It's just a choice I make along with a lot of others especially in Australia. I haven't gone to the extent of using organic oils yet! 

Relle,
I live in the country which explains why I haven't seen Pomace for sale around here. 

PJ


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## mx5inpenn

penelopejane said:


> Earlene,
> I don't like the chemicals (solvents like hexane) and heat they use to extract the oil from the left over pulp, skins and stems after all other extraction methods. I prefer to use cold pressed oil.



Do you use EO only then also? I started out wanting the soap I made to be completely natural other than the lye. My outlook on it all has evolved. Some EO's bother me and I've only come across a couple FO's that do, so long as I avoid lavender. I've discovered that I can't use anything lavender whether natural or not. I use micas because I like how they look and I hated seeing my efforts wasted after cure using natural colorants. I don't make any lotions because I don't want to use preservatives and emulsifiers tho. I'll stick with lotion bars and whipped butters.


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## earlene

Thank you, *Penelope*.  I certainly do believe that certain things are definitely absorbed through the skin, after all there are plenty of topical medications that work quite effectively to treat certain diseases.  And regulations have changed many times in my lifetime regarding OTC products that are topically applied for that very reason.  And of course we all do have different levels of sensitivity to different types of things regardless of regulations.  I, for example, can't use almost any commercially prepared hair conditioner on my hair without breaking out in unsightly and extremely itchy raised red blotches on my face and neck.  Most people I know think that's really strange.  But it is what it is and I just don't use hair conditioner and I'm fine most of the time.

I suppose that even with the IOC regulations that restrict the allowable amount of benzopyrenes in pomace olive oil it may still be a problem for someone with sensitivities.  Benzopyrenes are apparently what is restricted in pomace olive oil in the European Union and members of the IOC (reference).  In the USA, however, it appears that what is restricted in pomace olive oil is halogenated solvents, heavy metals and pesticide residues (USA reference).  I don't really know how those compare to the European restrictions, though.  And I don't really know if the imported pomace olive oil that I buy meets USA olive oil standards.  I am guessing that it meets both European and USA standards, but of course I cannot be sure.  For me I think it's okay.  Additionally, I investigated around a bit to read about regulated hexane exposure limits in the USA at least, since that's where I live.  I found this and it leads me to believe that for me anyway, using pomace olive oil in soap is not going to create the kinds of exposures the CDC (Center for Disease Control) is concerned about.  I couldn't find sufficient information from the WHO on hexane to address this topic; maybe I didn't delve deeply enough into the WHO articles, though.

But I thank you for sharing your concerns and now I better understand them, I think.   And as a result of this conversation I did delve a little more deeply into the subject than I had previously, so that's always a good thing.  Keeping educated is always good, IMO.


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## penelopejane

mx6inpenn said:


> Do you use EO only then also? I started out wanting the soap I made to be completely natural other than the lye. My outlook on it all has evolved. Some EO's bother me and I've only come across a couple FO's that do, so long as I avoid lavender. I've discovered that I can't use anything lavender whether natural or not. I use micas because I like how they look and I hated seeing my efforts wasted after cure using natural colorants. I don't make any lotions because I don't want to use preservatives and emulsifiers tho. I'll stick with lotion bars and whipped butters.



I am allergic to most EOs.  I can use some FOs and some EOs.  I don't want to use preservatives and emulsifiers either so anything I do make (in future as I don't make them now) would be for personal use.


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## Rune

traderbren said:


> Olive Oil can be quite cheap if you source it locally from a grocery store or warehouse club. You don't need Extra Virgin Olive Oil for soap (it's far too expensive to soap with unless you need to). A 5 liter jug of 100% olive oil was about $20 at BJ's (warehouse club) the last time I bought it. As an added bonus, you can still cook with it.



I just wonder why the olive oil in Norway is so cheap compared to other countries? Here I can buy 1 liter for $1,30. That will be $6,5 for 5 liter. If we consider that salaries are in general way higher here than in USA, and the costs of living is higher as well, the price of $6,5 will maybe be approximately the same as if you should pay $3-4 for 5 liter. And that is in reality like $16 cheaper (approximately)! That is from the grocery store, and it's not marked as pomace. What REALLY is in the bottle, I don't know. But I don't think it's pomace since it is pale yellow. It's not branded either, just the grocery chain's own line of cheap products. Rapeseed oil is also in the same price range.

I don't understand the price difference, since the olive oil is imported anyway. To buy pomace from UK is way more expensive than to buy refined oil here. That does not make sense. I can sort of understand why it's way more expensive in America than here, since it must be shipped all the long way from Southern Europe (if you don't have your own olive plantations).

So I can not use any pomace oil to make soap, unless I want to pay more. So I will stick to refined olive oil (I think it must be refined, but don't know for sure since I don't have a bottle on hand). 

I will also stay away from extra virgin or virgin olive oil. And that is because I think it is a waste of great food to use such qualities for soap making. The skin can hardly tell a difference anyway. And another point is that the producers often cheat with the higher qualites of olive oil. So it can be sunflower or whatever that is treated with chemicals and flavors to be sold as extra virgin olive. That can really mess up everything.


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## cmzaha

This is the pomace I now purchase for the little olive oil I use in soap http://cibariaspecsheets.com/public/specsheets/27 at 60 per 35 lbs it is quite cheap. I always purchased Costco Pure Olive, but this is approx $.42 cents a lb cheaper. Does not seem much but it all adds up. This is an amazing woman owned company, who treats her employees fantastically. Cibaria Intl and Cibaria Soap Supply are her two divisions.

I am one of the few that cannot use many EO's but I can use Synthetic FO's. During my days of taking vitamins I always had to use synthetic vitamins, other than vitamin c


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## cmzaha

penelopejane said:


> Gosh no, I don't mean using Olive Pomace is blase.  I meant when people say (on a forum) they use different ingredients or additives in soap and don't declare them.  Like M&P makers who say their soap doesn't contain Lye.  If one uses Pomace why not say so on the label?  If makers are scared that it will chase users away don't use it.  Otherwise what can it hurt to declare it?
> 
> The other day on a sugar free recipe site they advertised a recipe as sugar free.  They used condensed milk but still said the recipe was sugar free because they didn't ADD sugar.
> 
> All I am saying is if you declare what you use in your soap then people have a choice.
> 
> PJ


Not all M&P is made with lye soap. By the time m&p is finished it is no longer considered soap, at least no in the US. Soap in the US does not have to be labeled if it is just sold as Soap. M&P does have to be labeled.


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