# New York Times Article



## Carly B (May 14, 2021)

Love Artisanal Soaps? Make Your Own (Published 2021)
					

Susan Ryhanen, who creates Saipua’s specialty bars with her daughter at their farm in upstate New York, offers a step-by-step guide on how to reproduce their sudsy magic.




					www.nytimes.com
				




DIscuss


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## Zing (May 14, 2021)

Are Susan and Sarah members of this forum?  It's pretty well written and good to get that history.  A soap-making editor would have caught the unfortunate directions to mix lye liquid in a glass jar and to cure for 2 weeks.  I did like the tip on combining lavender and rosemary essential oils.  I like coconut oil but 41% is high even for me.


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## ImpKit (May 14, 2021)

Zing said:


> Are Susan and Sarah members of this forum?  It's pretty well written and good to get that history.  A soap-making editor would have caught the unfortunate directions to mix lye liquid in a glass jar and to cure for 2 weeks.  I did like the tip on combining lavender and rosemary essential oils.  I like coconut oil but 41% is high even for me.


From an editing perspective they also call out 2 tsp of *oat* flour in the ingredients list but in step 5 they talk about adding *almond* flour. Is confuse.

I'm, personally, not very thrilled the article doesn't call out wearing eye protection. They talk about mask and gloves but not safety goggles.

It was an interesting read though.


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## ResolvableOwl (May 14, 2021)

The 7% lye discount (modulo weighing error in mind!) might help a bit to calm down the 40.8% coconut; I think they aimed for it to ensure quick trace and satisfactory hardness at a meagre ”longevity“ P+S=16. Probably a subtle way to circumvent the disproportionately emotional debates around animal fats (lard etc.) and palm oil, without digging too deep in the bag of advanced soap recipe tricks (soy wax, sodium lactate, CPOP, accelerating FOs, salt bars etc.).

In any case, it's a quick recipe (shows its strengths after a very short cure), and definitely a good starting point to “hook” novices into making their own soap, and convince their friends/family that soapmaking is neither rocket science nor witchery (well, at least most of the time).

Stupid question from an extra-galactic guest who is only used to metric units: Is it obvious to _weigh_ the oz, or could someone come up with the brilliant idea to measure oils and/or water by volumetric ounces?



ImpKit said:


> the article doesn't call out wearing eye protection. They talk about mask and gloves but not safety goggles.


Good point. Lye burns on skin are painful but they heal. In contrast, you can go blind only once.


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## ImpKit (May 14, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Stupid question from an extra-galactic guest who is only used to metric units: Is it obvious to _weigh_ the oz, or could someone come up with the brilliant idea to measure oils and/or water by volumetric ounces?



I wouldn't call this a stupid question! Having watched a ton of soap videos before I tried it, I knew to weigh everything on a scale and I only ONLY work in grams for accuracy... but if I were starting with this article, I would assume to weigh the solid stuff (so the shea butter, the lye, and maybe the coconut oil) but the liquid stuff (olive, castor, [maybe] coconut, water, and essential oils) I would do by pulling out a measuring cup and filling based on the ounces marking! It almost certainly wouldn't occur to me that there could be a difference.

It also doesn't touch on taking care to not use fractionated coconut oil; most people wouldn't know the difference or would assume it can be substituted.

ETA: I misspoke. I actually DO use ounces for my fragrances. But those are weighed on the same scale as everything else. Not "Oh this shot glass hold 1.5 oz, so I can just measure it twice for 3 oz!" And some additives, like mica and clays, are eyeballed and measured in teaspoons and tablespoons.


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## Zing (May 14, 2021)

I'm gritting my teeth to contain my rant on our measuring system.  I can't speak for everyone but people who follow recipes for cooking food I think would jump to fluid ounces for fluids.

And, shh, @ResolvableOwl , don't let the cat out of the bag! People think I'm a bada-- for making homemade soap. If they want to think it's rocket science, then who am I to stop them?


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## Peachy Clean Soap (May 14, 2021)

I found this article very interesting & enlightening.  I liked how their soap is wrapped' If I can find some pretty paper thats waxy on the inside I'd totally wrap my soap like theirs' at least give it a go to see if I like it, defiantly has its pros & cons.  I'd like to try this recipe but of course add my twist on it.
Carly B interesting post 
Up-Date Their Soap Was Semi-Jelled


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## Arimara (May 14, 2021)

@Zing Our measuring systems has some merits. I'm not one for thinking  one system is better than another when each system has advantages and disadvantages.


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## ResolvableOwl (May 14, 2021)

ImpKit said:


> I wouldn't call this a stupid question!


I probably wasn't disparaging enough. Our moms teach us “We don't talk to them. They use the same unit with different meanings depending on what they measure.” 

Joke aside. If a unit system didn't work, people would have died from hunger. Unit systems are about consistency, and each has their strengths and weaknesses (except the pre-1971 £sd system, that had only weaknesses). The only _really stupid_ thing to do is being inconsistent.

I asked because I have no idea how the ambiguity of “ounce” is handled in practice of US households. We have measuring cups too, and they have multiple graduations for grams of flour, sugar, salt, oil etc. (i. e. implicit assumptions on density), but that's about it with “mixing up weight and volume measurement”.



Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Up-Date Their Soap Was Semi-Jelled


Sharp eye!


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## amd (May 14, 2021)

Zing said:


> I'm gritting my teeth to contain my rant on our measuring system.


Me too! Just had this discussion with one of my "old guy" engineers who refuses to use metric - even though all of our suppliers, manufacturing, and prints are in metric. Nope, he converts it to inches and then comes ask me questions fully knowing that all the tools I use for production print measurements are in metric. Get.on.board. already.

My only comment other than what is noted above, is that I found humourous that the recipe shared is rosemary and lavender but the photo showing the essential oils added has a citrus blend label.... those are the things that cause OCD flareups.


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## ImpKit (May 14, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> I asked because I have no idea how the ambiguity of “ounce” is handled in practice of US households. We have measuring cups too, and they have multiple graduations for grams of flour, sugar, salt, oil etc. (i. e. implicit assumptions on density), but that's about it with “mixing up weight and volume measurement”.


My observation / experience and practice is that if it specifies ounces then I weigh the solid stuff and I measure the liquid stuff by volume. Unless there are bright glowing instructions to not do it that way. However most recipes in the US don't assume the household has a scale though so you get volumetric measurements by the "cup" most commonly, or by teaspoons and tablespoons for smaller measurements. These are the same for liquids and solids.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 15, 2021)

But that is so bizarre! For small things it might not be too bad, but for something like broccoli florets, volume measurements could vary so much based on the size of the florets and how they lay in the container/how much empty space there is.


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## Relle (May 15, 2021)

Carly B said:


> Love Artisanal Soaps? Make Your Own (Published 2021)
> 
> 
> Susan Ryhanen, who creates Saipua’s specialty bars with her daughter at their farm in upstate New York, offers a step-by-step guide on how to reproduce their sudsy magic.
> ...


It's a pity they also say you can use the soap in a week or two or even sooner, after making it. They obviously don't cure any further than 2 weeks.


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## earlene (May 15, 2021)

Too bad the NYT doesn't have an experienced conscientious safe soap maker on staff to review such articles prior to publication.  A letter to the editor addressing the dangers espousded in this article is in order.  I would do it myself, but my dominant hand is still in process of recovery & rehab.  Too much use causes pain, so I am trying to keep the use directed toward activities that rehab short of pain rather than activities that generate a lot of pain, and trying to type lengthy discourse is the latter.


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## lucycat (May 15, 2021)

Its hard to know how many items the magazine edited from the instructions.   Susan Ryhanen had a business, I think Creekside soaps, for many years.  Her husband made molds and soap dishes.   I purchased my wooden log molds from him about 2006 and still use his soap dishes for my displays.   To me, she was a regular soap maker and had markets/fairs and a small online business.   When her daughter decided to join they changed the business model completely with a new name, elegant packaging and substantially increased prices.  I can't imagine selling a bar of soap for $18 so wonder if her soap is just part of the PR for her farm.  I would have pushed for a more flattering photo.


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## KimW (May 15, 2021)

lucycat said:


> Its hard to know how many items the magazine edited from the instructions.


This is a good point, and one that I didn't consider.  I know from experience that one does not often get final approval of a publication's final edit or article.



ResolvableOwl said:


> I asked because I have no idea how the ambiguity of “ounce” is handled in practice of US households. We have measuring cups too, and they have multiple graduations for grams of flour, sugar, salt, oil etc. (i. e. implicit assumptions on density), but that's about it with “mixing up weight and volume measurement”.





The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But that is so bizarre! For small things it might not be too bad, but for something like broccoli florets, volume measurements could vary so much based on the size of the florets and how they lay in the container/how much empty space there is.



RO:  I'd say we handle our ounces and measuring containers much the same way as you handle yours.  However, you are right in that most US households do not have or use a kitchen scale.  My Mimi and Grandma both had scales, but I've never seen such in any other US home.  Hence the so many recipes that say "1 head of broccoli" (@The Efficacious Gentleman) or "1 pound of beef", with the thought being that most heads of broccoli are similar in weight and that meat is sold by the pound.  Of course, I usually have to push through my own angst of "Well, what size was the head of broccoli that they used?!", etc.  It's funny though that in the US I'd say we do depend on manufacturers doing the weighing for us, but use volume measurements in our cooking.


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## KimW (May 15, 2021)

Hey, @Peachy Clean Soap, what about something like this?  A bit spendy, but I'd bet you could find similar for a reasonable price.   


			https://www.amazon.com/BeeBae-Premium-Beeswax-Alternative-Reusable/dp/B07P9MTBV7


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## earlene (May 15, 2021)

KimW said:


> This is a good point, and one that I didn't consider.  I know from experience that one does not often get final approval of a publication's final edit or article.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My family used kitchen scales.  Perhaps it's a generational thing?  Not just my immediate family, but aunts, grans, cousins, etc. In fact, it was quite common that the same kitchen scale was used  to weigh babies.  So in my recollection, they used to be pretty common.  But maybe it was just where I came from and the people I knew and the era in which I grew up.

As for using volume and not weight in our cooking, I don't find that to be at all accurate.  In some cases it is a mixture of both, but not mutually exclusive, at least IME.  Many cooking shows (and they happen to be a favorite viewing option for me) do indicate weights of ingredients.  However another form of measure I often use in cooking is the palm of my hand (to measure portion sizes) and the 'dab', 'pinch', or 'taste' measurements, all of which are strictly arbitrary (for my purposes).


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## KimW (May 15, 2021)

earlene said:


> In some cases it is a mixture of both, but not mutually exclusive, at least IME.


Yes, good point @earlene !  That our cooking is a mixture of both is what I was trying so miserably to convey with my "recipe" statement.  Ugh! 
With the exception of bread recipes, I don't think there are many US recipes that are all weight or all volume.  But, even bread recipes based on weight will specify a bread pan which is based on volume, because that's how pans are understandably labeled.  And - Yes, I learned the easy way that any cooking recipe is a simple matter of ratio, so it doesn't matter how big your palm is compared to my palm, though I confess understanding of "to taste", "pinch" and "dab" eludes me to this day.

Yes, I do agree that many cooking shows (also my favorite viewing option along with history types) indicate weight as well as volume.  Julia Child (my fav) comes to mind.  Just about every recipe she tells/shows volume and weight.


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## TheGecko (May 15, 2021)

I have several issues with the article, regardless that it is well-written:

1) Using Glass to Mix Lye Solution - The very first time I made soap (community class via local community college), I mixed my lye solution in a Mason jar. Understand, I knew absolutely nothing about soap making at this time relying completely on the instructor and supply list so I had no clue about the exothermic reaction of Distilled Water + Sodium Hydroxide. But I did grow up canning and knew how dangerous it was to put hot stuff in a cold jar or cold stuff in a hot jar (which is why we pre-chilled or pre-heat our jars). So when I realized just hot frickin' hot my lye solution was, I took a HUGE step back. When I expressed my concerns to the instructor I was told that it was okay to use canning jar or Pyrex. 

2) First Time Recipe - One thing the class got right was to use ingredients that could be easily found in any grocery store and were fairly inexpensive. I would have gone with a palm shortening or lard, coconut oil, olive oil.

3) There is a big difference between "measure" and "weigh", especially in the US. When you tell me to "measure" an ingredient, I would get out my Measuring Cups and then wonder why a scale was on the Supply List since the directions don't tell me to "weigh" anything.

And whether you use Metric or Imperial, it really doesn't matter so long as you are consistent and have an accurate scale. And I don't have an issue with using Teaspoons and Tablespoons for 'additives'...again, just be consistent.

4) Trace - I have taught a few people to make soap and I NEVER tell them to mix their batter to 'pudding'...only to a thin 'pancake batter' or maybe a 'waffle batter'. "Pudding" leaves too many changes to have a religious soap...lots of 'holes' from air.

5) Eye Protection - As long as you're not sticking your face over the Lye Solution as you are first mixing it or working with dry ingredients with really fine particles, you do not need a mask...but you DO need eye protection. And don't think that your eye glasses are good enough because they don't cover that large of a surface area around your eyes (or cover the sides) and you can damage the coating. They don't have to be expensive...you can get a decent pair for about $3.00 at Home Depot. Eye Protection should be your number one priority followed by gloves.

6) Cure Time - Yeah, the soap class instructor also told us two weeks...which is about how long the bar of soap lasted. Good thing I made 8 bars. And it would have been better had the soap saponified for 48 hours instead of 24 as it was a PITA to get of the milk carton. 

I enjoy making soap and love to teach others how to make it too, but I am also responsible about it.


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## KimW (May 15, 2021)

I keep reading that article and looking at its photos...like a train wreck from which you can't turn away.  I don't understand how such a seasoned soaper would write such an article.  Surely this isn't what they wanted written or how they make soap for their business...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 15, 2021)

Maybe they were trying to look like they were helping people make great soap when they were actually sabotaging them?


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## Tara_H (May 15, 2021)

I didn't notice this sentence on the first reading, but...



> Saipua’s bars are perfumed with unusual and ever-changing combinations of essential oils and other natural elements like dill and clary sage, nori and sea salt, French green clay and vetiver and coffee and mint.


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## KimW (May 15, 2021)

hmmmmmm...pickle perfumed soap....yum!


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## Peachy Clean Soap (May 15, 2021)

KimW said:


> Hey, @Peachy Clean Soap, what about something like this?  A bit spendy, but I'd bet you could find similar for a reasonable price.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/BeeBae-Premium-Beeswax-Alternative-Reusable/dp/B07P9MTBV7


Thats so interesting' who knew their was such a thing, agree a bit pricey though for soap. Thank you for your post appreciate it.


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## Vicki C (May 15, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> I probably wasn't disparaging enough. Our moms teach us “We don't talk to them. They use the same unit with different meanings depending on what they measure.”
> 
> Joke aside. If a unit system didn't work, people would have died from hunger. Unit systems are about consistency, and each has their strengths and weaknesses (except the pre-1971 £sd system, that had only weaknesses). The only _really stupid_ thing to do is being inconsistent.
> 
> ...


Fluid ounces are really confusing and stupid. I recently bought some powdered oxides that were supposed to be 4 ounces each, but weighed about 2.5 ounces. Then I saw that they measured their powdered oxides in fluid ounces. Ridiculous. I was so irritated I returned them.


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## Quilter99755 (May 16, 2021)

KimW said:


> Hey, @Peachy Clean Soap, what about something like this?  A bit spendy, but I'd bet you could find similar for a reasonable price.
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/BeeBae-Premium-Beeswax-Alternative-Reusable/dp/B07P9MTBV7


I found a site where you can make these yourself. I did ask my "greenie" daughter in Hawaii how she liked them as I knew that she had purchased some. She said don't bother, that no matter how hard you try, air still gets into the container and dries out what is there or leaves it subject to mold. However, if you are looking for a waxed paper(rather than cloth) I would imagine that there is a DIY video out there or use one for the cloth wraps to try it out with paper. There are so many lovely papers out there for scrapbookers.


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## Tara_H (May 16, 2021)

Quilter99755 said:


> I found a site where you can make these yourself. I did ask my "greenie" daughter in Hawaii how she liked them as I knew that she had purchased some. She said don't bother, that no matter how hard you try, air still gets into the container and dries out what is there or leaves it subject to mold. However, if you are looking for a waxed paper(rather than cloth) I would imagine that there is a DIY video out there or use one for the cloth wraps to try it out with paper. There are so many lovely papers out there for scrapbookers.


Wouldn't they be a reasonable alternative to cling film (plastic wrap(?)) though? I.e. not totally airtight but good enough to wrap/cover in the short-ish term? That seems to be what they're aimed at.


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## Quilter99755 (May 16, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> Wouldn't they be a reasonable alternative to cling film (plastic wrap(?)) though? I.e. not totally airtight but good enough to wrap/cover in the short-ish term? That seems to be what they're aimed at.


She said as much as she hated using plastic wrap, she would use it rather than these. Her fridge smelled horrible after wrapping a few items...onions, melon and berries, as if they had all been mixed up together...and drying out to boot. She tossed them and I never bothered to try out the DIY type.


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## amd (May 17, 2021)

Relle said:


> It's a pity they also say you can use the soap in a week or two or even sooner, after making it. They obviously don't cure any further than 2 weeks.


I've seen this advice touted by Kenna at Modern Soapmaking as well. She says that if you're curing your soap longer than two weeks you're wasting valuable time and space. I heartily disagree with this advice and have not been afraid to say so. I get that part of why she recommends this is because she uses less water in her recipes, but there's so much more that goes on in curing than water loss. I have a fairly tight schedule for curing (4 weeks for aloe and beer soap, 5 weeks for milk soaps), but I also don't have a quick turnaround on freshly made soap and in some cases if I think the soap doesn't "feel" ready I'll let it sit longer. This is one of the many reasons why when I shop other soap makers at markets I look for loose wrappers and never buy naked soap. If the wrappers aren't loose, I ask how old the soap is.... and I'm always shocked by how many makers are eager to tell me "it's fresh made". No no no! Teach your customers that soap is like wine! It gets better with age. I always act disappointed and ask them for their oldest soap and ask if they'll give a discount because it's old lol. I guess if they want to play that game (or be that uneducated about what they're selling) I'll play along with it too.


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## ImpKit (May 17, 2021)

amd said:


> I've seen this advice touted by Kenna at Modern Soapmaking as well. She says that if you're curing your soap longer than two weeks you're wasting valuable time and space. I heartily disagree with this advice and have not been afraid to say so. I get that part of why she recommends this is because she uses less water in her recipes, but there's so much more that goes on in curing than water loss. I have a fairly tight schedule for curing (4 weeks for aloe and beer soap, 5 weeks for milk soaps), but I also don't have a quick turnaround on freshly made soap and in some cases if I think the soap doesn't "feel" ready I'll let it sit longer. This is one of the many reasons why when I shop other soap makers at markets I look for loose wrappers and never buy naked soap. If the wrappers aren't loose, I ask how old the soap is.... and I'm always shocked by how many makers are eager to tell me "it's fresh made". No no no! Teach your customers that soap is like wine! It gets better with age. I always act disappointed and ask them for their oldest soap and ask if they'll give a discount because it's old lol. I guess if they want to play that game (or be that uneducated about what they're selling) I'll play along with it too.


Okay so I don't sell but... I would assume a loose wrapper should / would only happen as the soap shrinks from water loss. I wouldn't think to wrap soap until after it was cured though. So a wrapper would, if I ever sold,  likely to never be loose. I'm thus confused why you only look for loose wrappers? Am I just approaching the idea of soap packaging incorrectly?

I get the concerns with "fresh made". Do you ask them what their cure time is? Do they seem to be uneducated or is it possible they are simply responding to the "expectations" from customers that "fresh = best" and don't want to take the time to explain curing? And thus to them "fresh" is the same as "recently completed cure."


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## GemstonePony (May 17, 2021)

ImpKit said:


> Okay so I don't sell but... I would assume a loose wrapper should / would only happen as the soap shrinks from water loss. I wouldn't think to wrap soap until after it was cured though. So a wrapper would, if I ever sold,  likely to never be loose. I'm thus confused why you only look for loose wrappers? Am I just approaching the idea of soap packaging incorrectly?
> 
> I get the concerns with "fresh made". Do you ask them what their cure time is? Do they seem to be uneducated or is it possible they are simply responding to the "expectations" from customers that "fresh = best" and don't want to take the time to explain curing? And thus to them "fresh" is the same as "recently completed cure."


Soap continues to shrink over the course of it's existence, it just does it more slowly after a few weeks. So, once you wrap your soap, no matter how cured, the wrapper will loosen over time as the soap within it shrinks.


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## amd (May 17, 2021)

ImpKit said:


> So a wrapper would, if I ever sold, likely to never be loose. I'm thus confused why you only look for loose wrappers? Am I just approaching the idea of soap packaging incorrectly?


Incorrectly, no, perhaps just inexperienced. Soap will continue to shrink as it ages. When I first started selling I would tighten the wrappers on all my soaps and after several months I would have to go back and tighten again. I have a large box filled with my own soaps and other people's soaps - some dating back to 2017! - and all have loose wrappers. This is also why I generally don't worry tightening my wrappers anymore - I have too much soap to do it with for every market and I have customers who are educated enough to look for the loose wrapper.



ImpKit said:


> Do you ask them what their cure time is? Do they seem to be uneducated or is it possible they are simply responding to the "expectations" from customers that "fresh = best" and don't want to take the time to explain curing?


I generally don't as I find too many makers get defensive if you start asking them knowledgeable questions. I can ask enough questions without getting specific to find out if someone knows what they're doing or just makes for the sake of making. [I hesitate to call them "hacks" unless they truly act like it.] When my customers ask, I explain as much as they are willing to listen to - it's never a wasted conversation, and any maker who thinks it is is short changing their customers [imo].


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## earlene (May 17, 2021)

I just opened a soap I made 6 years ago, and although wrapper was loose, it wasn't excessively loose.  But how old was the wrapper, one might ask?  Well, it was hand-written, which I haven't done for quite some time (probably 2017 would have been the last time I hand-printed a label.  Was it ever re-wrapped?  Sure, when they get too loose, I do tighten them if appropriate.  For example, if it's a cigar-band type wrap, I don't want it to fall off, so I tighten it.  However, it it's shrink wrapped, which several of my soaps are, I'll just run the heat gun over them for quick tighten.

Incidentally, this 6-year-old soap is one of my first egg soaps and it lathers and bubbles so nicely, as I find egg soaps tend to do. No real fragrance, although I really don't recall if I was adding fragrances yet at that point.  No rancidity, in case anyone is wondering.


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## fjura (Sep 2, 2022)

Hi there! I know this is over a year later but I thought I’d ask. Has anyone tried their soap? I have a bar and have to say I was underwhelmed. How close do you think this article recipe is to their proprietary recipe? What could be tweaked to get more lather?


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## earlene (Sep 3, 2022)

fjura said:


> Hi there! I know this is over a year later but I thought I’d ask. Has anyone tried their soap? I have a bar and have to say I was underwhelmed. How close do you think this article recipe is to their proprietary recipe? What could be tweaked to get more lather?


Refer to this blogpost, as the solid soapmaking part of the business has been outsourced, apparently.  SAIPUA


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## fjura (Sep 4, 2022)

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.


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