# To sell, or not to sell...



## Sarah Seaton (Mar 7, 2019)

Hi!  I wasn't sure if this was the right topic to post under, but I think it fits.  I have only been making CP soaps for a little while now and am nowhere near ready to sell any.  However, I was thinking down the line that it is something I would like to do once I perfect my recipe and test it out for awhile.  I recently read a long post of all the things that one needs to keep in mind before selling or starting a business and I guess it kind of scared me away from it.  My question is to all of those who sell their soaps, do you think it is worth it or would you recommend keeping it a hobby?  Also, if you do suggest selling eventually, what kind of market is best?  Craft shows?  Etsy?
Thank you!


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## dixiedragon (Mar 7, 2019)

Not a seller, but I do think you need to plan to have some kind of online presence and way to buy online. Otherwise, you can't gain traction. Craft shows are very demanding - lots of time before and after, and they are exhausting.


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## Sarah Seaton (Mar 7, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> Not a seller, but I do think you need to plan to have some kind of online presence and way to buy online. Otherwise, you can't gain traction. Craft shows are very demanding - lots of time before and after, and they are exhausting.



Thank you!


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## Misschief (Mar 7, 2019)

In my case, at this time, I only sell at one seasonal market because I still have a full time job. Once I retire (I'm on the Freedom 95 plan, btw), I plan on applying for more markets, as well as expanding my online presence. It takes time and right now, I just don't have the time to put into that it will take.


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## lsg (Mar 8, 2019)

I tried selling bath & body products on etsy and at a fair, but found out it wasn't profitable for me.  I only sell to freinds of family now.  The market is very crowded.


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## Sarah Seaton (Mar 8, 2019)

lsg said:


> I tried selling bath & body products on etsy and at a fair, but found out it wasn't profitable for me.  I only sell to freinds of family now.  The market is very crowded.



Good advice, thank you.


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## Susie (Mar 8, 2019)

You really need to be aware first that all the fun goes out of making soap when it becomes a source of income.  You have to start adding ingredients for label value rather than what it actually brings to the soap, you have to do lots more testing with other people on scents, colors, patterns, etc.  It really is a big change from just trying to please yourself.  Think long and hard about that before making the leap.


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## Sharon Patterson (Mar 8, 2019)

I have had my soap business for about six years now and enjoy it so much.  I do farmer's markets and craft fairs plus have a web site.  It is hard work but I enjoy it so much.  I love talking to people and telling them how I make soap and my  other products.  I am semi-retired from my other business and am old enough for social security so that helps out a lot.  I don't make a lot of money selling my soap but I make enough.


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## Sarah Seaton (Mar 8, 2019)

Sharon Patterson said:


> I have had my soap business for about six years now and enjoy it so much.  I do farmer's markets and craft fairs plus have a web site.  It is hard work but I enjoy it so much.  I love talking to people and telling them how I make soap and my  other products.  I am semi-retired from my other business and am old enough for social security so that helps out a lot.  I don't make a lot of money selling my soap but I make enough.



Thank you!  It's nice to hear your positive experience with it.  I know it's hard work and wouldn't pull in too much income, but I'm glad you are still enjoying it.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 8, 2019)

It's a good point though. You like making soap - great, lovely. But do you like selling? Do you like marketing and finance? Do you like business?

As an example, a friend of mine and I both had photography work on the side. He was a better photographer but I was more successful, because I enjoyed (and could do) the other parts better. 

You won't just be making soap. That should be at most 50% of your time. The rest will be business


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## Sarah Seaton (Mar 8, 2019)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It's a good point though. You like making soap - great, lovely. But do you like selling? Do you like marketing and finance? Do you like business?
> 
> As an example, a friend of mine and I both had photography work on the side. He was a better photographer but I was more successful, because I enjoyed (and could do) the other parts better.
> 
> You won't just be making soap. That should be at most 50% of your time. The rest will be business



It's hard to tell without ever having had my own business before.  But I think it I would enjoy both aspects of it.  Thank you!


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## Dawni (Mar 8, 2019)

I wouldn't enjoy the math.

Even now that I'm not selling. Just thinking about how much one bar of soap actually costs to make is giving me a headache. That might be one deterrent for me, if ever..

My testers, family members all of them, want to help and insist on at least paying for the ingredients since they're using soap that's much better than any they've used before lol

That's why I sat down to think on it and to make it easier I told them to "pay" me whatever they've saved on not buying soap lol but some aunts are insisting I do basic costing at least. Ugh..


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## Donee' (Mar 8, 2019)

My experience is to think outside of the box
Mainstream markets and online and  such are completely crowded and the competition is to much.
Start with your local florist - sell them novelty soaps to include in gift hampers
Start with your local Liquor store - sell them beer soap as a novelty
Sart with your local butcher - sell them lard soap
If there is a local corporate gift place - approach them to include your soap in their gift bags
Visit your local hotels or b&b's or such and sell to them
If you have a racetrack - sell them mechanics soap (aka gardeners soap)
got to your local nursery and sell them soap on a rope gardeners soap that people can hang off their taps

Once you get money for your goods and repeat customers or word of mouth then you will fly.
People buy from people.

And dont take no for an answer 

There are so many other avenues to sell soap.



Dawni said:


> I wouldn't enjoy the math.
> 
> Even now that I'm not selling. Just thinking about how much one bar of soap actually costs to make is giving me a headache. That might be one deterrent for me, if ever..
> 
> ...


I have an excel spreadsheet with all the oil prices and then i dump in the quantities.  Marke up is between 200 - 300% which covers packaging, labelling, labour, petrol and other incidentals.


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## jcandleattic (Mar 8, 2019)

Susie said:


> You really need to be aware first that all the fun goes out of making soap when it becomes a source of income.  You have to start adding ingredients for label value rather than what it actually brings to the soap, you have to do lots more testing with other people on scents, colors, patterns, etc.  It really is a big change from just trying to please yourself.  Think long and hard about that before making the leap.


I personally have not found this to be true. I sell, and I still only make what I want. Of course what I want to make is what my target market also wants. I suppose it would be a different story if my target market demanded a different type of soap.


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## IrishLass (Mar 8, 2019)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It's a good point though. You like making soap - great, lovely. But do you like selling? Do you like marketing and finance? Do you like business?
> 
> As an example, a friend of mine and I both had photography work on the side. He was a better photographer but I was more successful, because I enjoyed (and could do) the other parts better.
> 
> You won't just be making soap. That should be at most 50% of your time. The rest will be business



This is exactly why I decided not to sell^^^^. That's not to say I didn't flirt a great deal with the idea of selling (it's hard not to when everyone you know is pushing you to sell, lol), but I know myself only too well... When it comes to business savvy, I've definitely "got no game", as they say. lol  I'm just not gifted in that way.....

And because I'm not gifted in that way, going into business with my soap would suck the joy out of me. I'm at my absolute happiest when I'm creating and making all kinds of stuff at my leisure just for the pure joy of gifting it to someone that I know will love it and appreciate it. If I had to dedicate 50% of my soaping time to marketing and selling it, I would burn out fast, no doubt about it. If I ever went into business, it would definitely have to be a partnership with someone who is trustworthy and passionate about marketing/selling, yet wise enough to leave the creating part to me.


IrishLass


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 8, 2019)

True! I think most people would be happiest working as the soap maker for someone running the business side, like an artist with an agent, almost


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## Donee' (Mar 9, 2019)

But thats where partnerships come into play. Find a partner who is good at the stuff you arent good at.  One of my major downfalls in previous businesses is trying todo it all myself.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> True! I think most people would be happiest working as the soap maker for someone running the business side, like an artist with an agent, almost


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## smengot0 (Mar 9, 2019)

Donee' said:


> My experience is to think outside of the box
> Mainstream markets and online and  such are completely crowded and the competition is to much.
> Start with your local florist - sell them novelty soaps to include in gift hampers
> Start with your local Liquor store - sell them beer soap as a novelty
> ...



Good places to start. Thanks for your thoughts Donee


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## Lin19687 (Mar 9, 2019)

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/are-you-ready-to-sell-your-soap.16002/


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## Sultana (Mar 10, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/are-you-ready-to-sell-your-soap.16002/


What a fantastic post. I have been at this since 2003. I am constantly amazed by the amount of soapers and bath and body "producers" that try a receipe that weekend and then are selling it on the market the following weekend. It makes for a bad reputation for all handcrafted soapers. There is a reason why there are bath and body regulations. When the day comes that the FDA decides to start going after the handcrafted market (and eventually they will) the "competition" will be cut down 90%.


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## hoibot (Mar 10, 2019)

It is a lot of work but I've found you can also maintain your 'hobbyist' nature with selling soap. As others have stated, it is possible for the fun to be sucked out of it - but you can control whether or not that happens. Not to speak for anyone else who sells, but if you go into it with appropriate expectations (e.g. you probably won't make tons of money doing it), you can balance the fun/hobbyist and entrepreneurial aspects of it. I agree that you should find a niche if you can because it is an extremely crowded market, both online and in-person (craft shows, gift stores, etc). One part of selling that I enjoy is that it allows me to continue *making *soaps/cosmetics because I can only consume so much and the making/formulating is the part that I really enjoy, as most of us do I suppose. And, it helps fund the hobby side of things.

I was surprised how much time and money it cost to get 'up and running.' Website, business licensing/LLC work, graphic design, containers/sticker supplies, establishing a shop/space in-home/organizing/keeping clean, social media/online presence, etc.. I did it all myself (as most of us probably do), and had to learn a lot on the fly, but I enjoyed the process even though it was frustrating at times. There's probably easier ways to do it, but I like to do it all and control the flow.

Now that I've been at it for about 3 years with lots of ebbs and flows with respect to my devotion and available time (i have a full time career outside my soap business) to the business, I have a much more laid back attitude toward it and it's a lot more fun!

This is just my experience - YMMV of course!


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## cmzaha (Mar 10, 2019)

Sultana said:


> What a fantastic post. I have been at this since 2003. I am constantly amazed by the amount of soapers and bath and body "producers" that try a receipe that weekend and then are selling it on the market the following weekend. It makes for a bad reputation for all handcrafted soapers. There is a reason why there are bath and body regulations. When the day comes that the FDA decides to start going after the handcrafted market (and eventually they will) the "competition" will be cut down 90%.


There was a girl in my weekly market that would unmold her soap, still sticking a bit in the mold, and selling "Fresh Soap". The "Fresh Soap statement was on her sign.



Donee' said:


> But thats where partnerships come into play. Find a partner who is good at the stuff you arent good at.  One of my major downfalls in previous businesses is trying todo it all myself.



Taking on a partner will require more expense and splitting the income. In the US there are so many soap sellers and limited customers it would be hard to make a fair wage if paying or splitting the income from the business.
Most open air markets are saturated with soapmakers. Just like my market last night, which I have been attending at least 6 yrs, had 2 other soap sellers. This is a small market with about 20 vendors. It doesn't really hurt me, because many of the customers I have there, have been buying my soap  for several yrs. I never noticed the other vendors selling enough, if any, soap to even make their $35 booth cost.
For my hubby and I it is something to do after retirement and we enjoy our weekly market, where the bulk of my sales are from crochet hats. I do not enjoy attending markets 3-4 times a week like we did when I started.


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## Lin19687 (Mar 11, 2019)

Sultana said:


> What a fantastic post. I have been at this since 2003. I am constantly amazed by the amount of soapers and bath and body "producers" that try a receipe that weekend and then are selling it on the market the following weekend. It makes for a bad reputation for all handcrafted soapers. There is a reason why there are bath and body regulations. When the day comes that the FDA decides to start going after the handcrafted market (and eventually they will) the "competition" will be cut down 90%.


Competition will stop once all the markets Mandate Insurance to do shows.  Amazing how that stops a lot of, fly by the night soapers


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## Hendejm (Mar 11, 2019)

If craft fairs and markets are so overcrowded, why sell there?  I hear time and time again how awful they are. I hear the same about Etsy. Why do soapers continue to try to sell at venues that, by their own admission, are not working?  Is it just to complain at how crowded the soap market is?  Is it to discourage others from entering the arena?  Is it because they don’t know of another way?

As some have suggested - you have to change your thinking and your actions if you desire a different result. Period! Selling on Etsy and at craft fairs when you know it’s bad - is a fools errand....unless it’s worth your while do do it for reasons other than successfully running a business (think people watching, friendships, passing time, etc). If you continue to go down the “woe is me”  path - you deserve to fail. You are knowingly wasting  time and money to your own detriment. 

If you can justify the time and expense of going to craft fairs - then great!  Awesome!! If not - either get out of the craft fair game and pursue another path OR stay there and dig  in your heals and make it work. 

Start to market to your customer base of when you will be at the fair via Facebook or email. Don’t have their info?  Who’s fault is that?  Get their email address and ask them to join you on Facebook. Offer incentives for them to come and bring a friend. 

Release new products and let everyone know. Instead of sitting behind your booth waiting for a customer to engage you - get your butt out from behind the booth and start TALKING TO PEOPLE!  Ask them to try your product. Do a drawing for some free product. Give samples away. Talk to people and DO SOMETHING. Tell them about new products you have in the pipeline - encouraging them to come back. Ask them what they want in a bath and body product. 

Every wonder why department stores have fragrance models?  Because it works!! Every wonder why fast food restaurants at the mall give away free samples?  Because it works. Yes it may cost you some product - but if done right - you will see results. Those people are out there annoying you to get your attention....to strike up a conversation....to engage you!

Don’t put a sample bin on  your booth table. Talk to the customer - find out what their needs and wants are - then give them a sample based on your conversation( from under your table). That sample is now relevant and the customer connects with it. If you leave samples out for anyone to take without you speaking to them - your samples will be gone and so will the potential customer.  It’s a waste of time.

Those that wine and complain at how bad things are - aren’t trying!  Seriously....they are not trying!!  It takes work, dedication, and most importantly -  the ability to see their mistakes and be able to course correct to prevent it from happening again. 

Sorry to go on a rant - but it makes my blood boil when someone comes on here and asks about selling and the old timers chime in and preach doom and gloom. It’s doom and gloom for them! That does not need to be your story. Choose a different path. Learn about marketing, branding, social media, target demographics. Those are the things that successful soapers do. You won’t find them on this forum whining and complaining because they are out there making a living and choosing to take a different path. 

I believe it was said earlier by @efficacious gentleman that nearly 50% of your time needs to be dedicated to the business aspect of soaping. I would agree but suggest that it’s probably closer to 70 or 80% if you want to financially successful at this soaping business.  That’s if you want to make a living doing this. And even then - you may still fail. But if you try to do anything less - failure is almost guaranteed. 

So for those of you that disagree - I’m fine with that. But please don’t try and discourage those that are trying to grow and learn. Do be that jaded old soaper that only sees the downside of everything. Offer hope based on your experience rather than dispair. 

If you can no longer make money as a soaper - then enjoy it as a hobby and look back on your successes rather than your failures. Share your experience and wisdom and tell people where you failed. This admission may open a world that you didn’t know existed. But it requires listening. You have to listen to what others say. Out of failure comes great success. Guaranteed!!’


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## cmzaha (Mar 11, 2019)

Who is whining and preaching doom and gloom. Many new soapers think they are going to make great money doing craft fairs and farmer markets. Sorry it just does not happen. The outdoor market train slowed down several years ago. People that shop at open air markets usually have a different mind set than people shopping in big box stores. FYI big box stores go out of business. But  I suppose you  would know how to fix it

I for one simply enjoy attending markets and make a decent supplement to retirement. Granted it is not necessarily all B&B products but that is the nature of the beast. I also do not want to wholesale or go into full time manufacturing. No thank you


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## cerelife (Mar 12, 2019)

@Hendejm  -I fully agree that finding your niche and creating unique branding is essential to a soapmaking  (or any) business, as is promoting and marketing your business through social media and face to face contact. Perception is everything in marketing and I knew exactly what look/feel I was going for in my packaging, presentation, and products. It took a while to get it right, but the end result is that I have cohesive branding and an 'over the top' booth presentation that matches my branding and style. I no longer do farmers markets or small craft fairs simply because my business style isn't a good fit for these events. Festivals, however...these are great for me and I enjoy them. 
BUT - I feel that you are being completely unfair to the 'old-timers' (as you call them) on this forum who are simply stating facts. I certainly don't think that their intention is to dissuade anyone from trying to sell their products, nor do I feel that they are preaching 'doom and gloom'. As an old-timer myself, I completely agree that the market for handmade soap/B&B products has changed drastically in the past few years. Not only is it saturated, but there is an overabundance of vendors who are trying to 'get rich quick'; care nothing for the craft, and sell inferior and sometimes even unsafe products. **This comment is NOT meant for the original poster or anyone on this thread - just my observations in my local area.** 
As for your inference that these old-timers are somehow lazy or just not trying hard enough? 
Cmzaha was actually kind enough to share almost your exact same thoughts on samples with me years ago. I forget her exact words but she shared her wisdom of having samples of new products to share with customers and ALSO to engage my customers in conversation to fit the sample with the customer as well as to ask them what other products they might want that I didn't offer. 
And I'm not sure if you've ever actually been a vendor at a farmers market/craft fair/festival, but most of the ones I've participated in over the years (in different states) have VERY strict rules about 'aggressive selling'. 
_"Ever wonder why department stores have fragrance models? Because it works!! Every wonder why fast food restaurants at the mall give away free samples? Because it works. Yes it may cost you some product - but if done right - you will see results. Those people are out there annoying you to get your attention....to strike up a conversation....to engage you!"_
This is NOT allowed and will get you kicked out tout de suite with an invitation to not apply to this particular event in the future. 
Same goes for having a drawing for free products that isn't approved by/doesn't benefit the venue in some way. However, I have had good results and repeat customers for providing gift bags/baskets for festival auctions.


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## cmzaha (Mar 12, 2019)

Well said, Cerelife


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## lsg (Mar 12, 2019)

Old timers are not lazy.  We are just speaking from experience, so unless you have been there and done that, be prudent when giving advice.  Theory is great, but experience is the best teacher.


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## Susie (Mar 12, 2019)

I think there is also room for those of us that simply do not have time to do the craft fair route.  I am far more interested in selling on a wholesale basis regardless of who's name is on the label.  It is what I have time for, and it far more suits my personality.  I am exploring some non-traditional avenues of getting my soap into people's hands.  With the current mentality of more natural/less chemical products, you would be surprised at who is interested in offering hand made soap.  I am glad there are people who sell at craft fairs, don't get me wrong, because a positive experience in using hand made soap has opened a couple of doors for me that I would not otherwise have had.  And my samples in their hands assures them that I make good soap.  But I probably spend 1 hour "marketing" to each 10 hours manufacturing at this point.  I understand that that will have to change down the road, but it is what I have time for right now.


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## amd (Mar 12, 2019)

Susie said:


> I am far more interested in selling on a wholesale basis regardless of who's name is on the label. It is what I have time for, and it far more suits my personality. I am exploring some non-traditional avenues of getting my soap into people's hands.


This, 1000x this. Some of us [me, I'm talking about me] don't like doing shows, don't like handling customers, and we're [I'm] not good at it. It doesn't matter how hard we hustle, we are just never going to be "big sellers". Would I rather handle one customer to sell 18 bars of soap, or handle 18 different customers? [rhetorical question]

I think before you seriously consider selling, you should consider how you want to sell and then do the research to find out how to sell to that market, and make a plan. I walked in blind to my business (3-1/2 years in and I'm still learning things I didn't know I didn't know) and still feel that I'm running a business to justify an expensive hobby.


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## Sultana (Mar 12, 2019)

I did get a tickle from posts like I saw on FB several weeks ago. A soaper was complaining that another soaper had stolen her ideas. She makes soap, lotion and bath bombs. The other person makes soap, lotion and bath bombs. The products between the two are different. But I always get a kick out of the complaining of stolen ideas.  Lush can easily sit back and say everyone stole their bath bomb idea. There is a limit of creativity for everyone. Someone someplace is doing the same thing you are and more than likely has no idea you exist.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 12, 2019)

I was going to post something similar to this. Can't believe you stole it.......


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## Carl (Mar 12, 2019)

Yes there are a lot of people making soap!

But, with exception to water, soap is the only item in the world that every human being on the planet needs!

And as far as I know, no one is allergic to soap.  Maybe certain oils, but there are always different ingredients.

So everyone is your potential customer!!!


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## cmzaha (Mar 12, 2019)

Actually Carl there are people allergic to lye based soap


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## Sultana (Mar 12, 2019)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I was going to post something similar to this. Can't believe you stole it.......


Lmao


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## carolp (Mar 12, 2019)

I agree it is a competitive market.  But, everyone uses soap, not everyone uses artisan/handmade soap.  So, in my mind those that currently buy off the shelf, manufactured soap are all potential customers.  Be positive and follow your heart in all that you do.


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## Carl (Mar 12, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> Actually \Carl there are people allergic to lye based soap



Who would have known?

There goes a small percentage of potential customers now!


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## Marilyn Norgart (Mar 12, 2019)

Carl said:


> But, with exception to water, soap is the only item in the world that every human being on the planet needs!



haha no people don't NEED soap but I am glad people use it


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## penelopejane (Mar 13, 2019)

amd said:


> This, 1000x this. Some of us [me, I'm talking about me] don't like doing shows, don't like handling customers, and we're [I'm] not good at it. It doesn't matter how hard we hustle, we are just never going to be "big sellers". Would I rather handle one customer to sell 18 bars of soap, or handle 18 different customers? [rhetorical question]
> 
> I think before you seriously consider selling, you should consider how you want to sell and then do the research to find out how to sell to that market, and make a plan. I walked in blind to my business (3-1/2 years in and I'm still learning things I didn't know I didn't know) and still feel that I'm running a business to justify an expensive hobby.


I am like you.
I was approached to sell by the one and only shop in our village.
We have a tiny number of permanent residents and 5,000 visitors in summer.
Once a week I walk down to the shop (450 metres) and take a photo of my display. I come home and wrap soap to fill the gaps and take it down to the shop where I price tag it.

I can make whatever I want.
I have a website but I don’t sell from it but I do sell bulk orders on request. I can go away on holiday whenever I want and I don’t have to deal with customers.  My friends are happy with my seconds - of which there are still quite a few. 

It covers the costs of my obsession, gets me involved in the village and also gives me a bit of a creative outlet.


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## lucycat (Mar 14, 2019)

If like most people who sell soap it is an "extra" income and doesn't have to pay a mortgage/utilities then you get to develop your own business model.   I like people and love the craft fair venue.  I am fortunate to live in an area with yearly shows and I do 5 shows in the fall.  I don't have a website and don't do wholesale.  It works because it fits what I love.  I have made many friends and have a very faithful customer base developed over the years that I see each year.   I started when I retired in 2006 and will stop when the aches/pains make setting up the booth too difficult.


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## Dahila (Mar 14, 2019)

it took me like 4 years to build customers base,  soap is a small part of what i make, I have like over 50 products with cosmetic numbers.  I sell on busy market but even with being busy it is not that profitable.  As a major source of income?  it took some people like 10 years (I am in Canada) to make decent profit on it,  In States the market is saturated with soap.  Everyone makes soap.  In the other words,  I think US is easier to sell.  Whatever you decide; good luck 
Shows;  in 2018/2019 I made 8 shows which only one was profitable, maybe this a case in Canada, but shows are getting more expensive and do not bring a lot of money..... I am sticking from now on with my market


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## Candybee (Mar 14, 2019)

I do this full time after I retired. Personally I love doing markets and craft fairs and work year round most every weekend. I tend to do 2-3 markets a week during market season (May through October) and craft shows during the fall and holiday season (September through December). It keeps me busy and I do well. One of my markets is open year round so when I don't have another market or craft show on my schedule I attend my 'base' market so this is why I work year round.

I'm not getting rich at this but I make more money than my social security pays me or a part time job. Its a great supplement to my income, keeps my bills paid, pays for my soapmaking and B&B and candle making supplies paid for, and my car serviced and running. 

Like others have mentioned there is a lot of bookkeeping, marketing, and good salesmanship needed to make it as a business. You also need to have a great product not only to outdo the competition but to reach new customers and retain your hard earned customer base.

The reason why I am doing so well.... I love what I do, making soap, love bookkeeping, and worked hard at developing a great product. I also discovered I have crazy good selling skills. I could sell ice to an Eskimo. How did I get this way? A lot of it is the pure joy of what I do and knowing my product inside and out. It shows when I talk about my soap to customers.

I tend to do better than other soapers at my markets and shows because of this and because I engage my customers and they see first hand how knowledgeable and caring I am about my soap. 

I have just two wholesale customers. I used to have many more and absolutely hated it. I discovered wholesaling is not for me so I quit doing it. The are several reasons I continue to keep my last two wholesale customers. We also go back a long ways too so I will continue until the time comes either they move on or I do. But I don't want to wholesale or do fundraisers. 

Interesting that when I was first doing wholesale I went door to door to shops all up and down the valley area I live in. Most customers liked me and my product and bought from me. I usually did about $2K in wholesale per month just starting out. But soon discovered I really didn't like following up and got tired real quick doing wholesale. I could have done really well but just didn't care for it and didn't want it to burn me out doing something I really didn't enjoy.

Okay I see I am rambling so I will stop. But I say if you have a dream of making soap and one day selling go with your dream. If its meant to be you will find your way through your own devices. At least I am a firm believer that what makes you happy is worth pursuing.


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## Marilyn Norgart (Mar 14, 2019)

Candybee said:


> But I say if you have a dream of making soap and one day selling go with your dream. If its meant to be you will find your way through your own devices. At least I am a firm believer that what makes you happy is worth pursuing



I still say we need a "love this" button


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## cmzaha (Mar 14, 2019)

lucycat said:


> If like most people who sell soap it is an "extra" income and doesn't have to pay a mortgage/utilities then you get to develop your own business model.   I like people and love the craft fair venue.  I am fortunate to live in an area with yearly shows and I do 5 shows in the fall.  I don't have a website and don't do wholesale.  It works because it fits what I love.  I have made many friends and have a very faithful customer base developed over the years that I see each year.   I started when I retired in 2006 and will stop when the aches/pains make setting up the booth too difficult.


Sounds just like me!! It is great extra money and fortunately my hubby helps with setup. Although he is facing elbow and shoulder surgery so will probably have to take a long break in the next year or so. I have a customer base at a couple of my holiday shows that show up every year and stock up for the next year.


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## Lin19687 (Mar 15, 2019)

i I suggest reading in the Craft & Biz sections.  you can't post there yet but there is a TON of info in there.


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## kasilofchrisn (Mar 15, 2019)

lucycat said:


> If like most people who sell soap it is an "extra" income and doesn't have to pay a mortgage/utilities then you get to develop your own business model.   I like people and love the craft fair venue.  I am fortunate to live in an area with yearly shows and I do 5 shows in the fall.  I don't have a website and don't do wholesale.  It works because it fits what I love.  I have made many friends and have a very faithful customer base developed over the years that I see each year.   I started when I retired in 2006 and will stop when the aches/pains make setting up the booth too difficult.


I'm just a hobbyist at this point and do not sell so take this for what it's worth.
But I have to agree with the above comment.
I think you have to pick a business model and work to that.
your business model maybe that you have a full-time job and just do a couple craft shows a year. If you make a little money doing that and you're happy with it then I think that's good.
I think that's also a great way to get started to see if you would want to do this as a full-time business or if you are able to do this as a full-time business.
I don't think a person necessarily needs to jump in with both feet and try to make a living pay your mortgage and all your bills doing this.
Doing a couple of craft fairs/farmers markets/ shows here and there to get your feet wet to see if people like your product and if you can actually make a little profit doing it is likely a good way to start.
Doing a website, Etsy store, etcetera all require that you keep a certain amount of product on hand continue to make product and the cost associated with it.
But when you do a craft fair your only selling what you have already made and packaged up.
And if it doesn't work out and you lose a little money at least you're not paying a monthly fee for a website and all that goes with it.
I know a lot of people say the market for soap is saturated.
But do all of those people live in the area you live in? 
Are all those people making the same kinds of soap as you?
I know some of the soaps I'll be making this summer will not be the same soap everybody else makes. Mainly because I like to use oils infused with wild local herbal products.
So I think it depends on a lot of different factors on whether you'll make money but I think testing the waters with a couple of  craft fairs or shows will give you an idea whether you really want to do it and whether you can make a profit at it.
This is just my two cents take it for what it's worth.


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## Dahila (Mar 15, 2019)

there is not so many variation in soaps as above poster think,  I also use a lot of herbs in my products, some wild some grown in my garden for this purpose.. almost all soaps are similar if you do not go above 20% with Coconut oil.  Soap is the easiest thing to make,  really it is not rocket science


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## kasilofchrisn (Mar 15, 2019)

Dahila said:


> there is not so many variation in soaps as above poster think,  I also use a lot of herbs in my products, some wild some grown in my garden for this purpose.. almost all soaps are similar if you do not go above 20% with Coconut oil.  Soap is the easiest thing to make,  really it is not rocket science


The population of my community will easily double and often triple during the peak of the tourist season.
And while my soap may or may not be all that different or any better than yours,
Do you think someone flies/drives 2,000-4,000 miles to Alaska to get the same soap you make and sell at their local craft fair back home?
Or does the label appeal of a product using some local ingredients and made locally mean something special to those customers?
That's what I'm getting at.
There are potentially areas that have available market share for niche products.
Many of the herbal and medicinal plants in my area are certainly different than those in yours.
Yes there are a couple of people who sell soap in my area and I'm sure they take advantage of our tourist market.
But from what I've seen of their stuff mine is quite different.
Like I said I do not currently sell my bath and body products anyway just give my excess away as gifts.
Again just my 2 cents.


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## LilyJo (Mar 15, 2019)

I think we all have an opinion or can offer advice based on our own experience and that will vary from area to area and from country to country.  What works in Canada or Alaska wouldnt necessarily work in England or Spain and vice versa. So, its all very well saying find a niche idea, or stick to your ideas or something but its important to be realistic too and understand that soap making is a tough business to make any long term money right now without putting the effort and the hours in, to the business and the marketing as well as the soap making. And that level of commitment may not be appropriate for someone who has bills to pay and for whom soap making needs to be a job and not a hobby.

TBH its part of the reason we have decided reluctantly to move away from selling bath and body (including soap) for now, as the market is just so saturated here and unfortunately both soap and candles are products that have a very low barrier to entry - making both the online and physical market one that has a great deal of low cost, low quality competition. 

I know what works for us and whilst I love making soap and the creativity that goes with it, I am fed up with competing with newcomers who dont follow the law, cut corners and sell cheap because they dont have the setup costs that legally compliant businesses do.  

I wouldnt want to put anyone off trying but just remember it IS a tough market, customers can buy from anywhere in the world at a click of a button and find any number of niche products that fit what they need.  There will always be a market for face to face selling but understanding who your customer is, what they want and WHY they would buy from you has to be the first step.


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## kasilofchrisn (Mar 15, 2019)

I suppose I should have been more clear in my first post in this thread.
But just because one is selling soap doesn't mean one has to sell enough to pay all of one's bills.
I think a person has to start with reasonable goals, taylor a business plan to reach those goals, and then decide where the business will take them after they have tried it for a while.
For instance I have a friend Alicia who makes handmade crochet items.
Mostly hats but also scarfs and other things.
She knows her market and she knows they don't sell well at all in the summertime even though there are a lot of opportunities to sell at local craft markets during the tourist season.
she also knows that there are other people in our area selling the same things, though there's are usually not as well made.
Anyway her yearly goal is to sell enough of her handmade goods to buy Christmas presents for her four kids.
And for the last several years she has met that goal.
She knows she cannot make enough money making her crocheted items and selling them to pay all of her bills for the year.
So instead she set a goal of paying for her kids Christmas presents which she finds with a little bit of hard work she can obtain every year.
She has a day job that pays her bills and uses her off time to crochet.
So good question for the OP here is what would be your initial goal if you decided to sell?
A hobby that (mostly) pays for itself?
Making a little extra spending money for Christmas?
Paying all of your bills as a professional soap maker?
All of those are vastly different and would certainly determine you're selling venue whether that's an Etsy store, website, craft shows Etc.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 16, 2019)

But whatever your goal, make sure that you price correctly. Some people may well pay their bills with the soap income, and if someone comes along who only wants to offset the cost of their hobby by selling soap at what is in business terms a huge loss, they might well struggle to do that.


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## ilovebathing (Mar 16, 2019)

After reading this, and sorry I am under the weather so I may not be as polished as i would hope to be.  It must of been a coincidence that I read this post and a video of Humble Bee and Me’s “why i stopped selling” it may be something in a concious level that I may find it that I am not the only one who feels this way every now and then.  Here’s my confession, the one thing I hated was wrapping my soaps and listing them on Etsy. It was the most tedious thing. Being a one woman show here, I felt that why on earth did I listen to my friends or family in selling it? I realized I am the type of person who competes even if the craft was not soap making, my cousin had her etsy shop and she did quite well, so I thought maybe I should pursue it as well. Sometimes, I have my regrets here and there. But I had to try it and see for myself. Now, I want to he honest here, I sold more soaps to coworkers, family, and family friends for the first year.  I barely sold off my Etsy store. And honestly, I am not very good at selling. I had realized that it is not because I don't love it or passionate about what I make, perhaps I am not hungry enough to keep going at it.  I even decided to rename my shop because I it didn't sound like a good label name. There are so may things that goes on when deciding to “sell.” And you certainly can’t keep all the bars at home? How can I store it? Do I donate all my products and unused shipping items? I am at a point where I dont want to lose the creativity and the joy of making soap, candles or make up. So if anybody here understands this or perhaps not, I am not discouraging anyone, but I had to write this so if a few months from now , I can look back and say... wow I am glad I decided .... (well Its not the future,yet so here goes another day). Feed our obsession or sell every now and then or just give it all up and do this as a hobby.


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## MickeyRat (Mar 18, 2019)

I keep toying with the idea of selling.  Everyone that gets my soap loves it and says I should.  Here's my situation.  I'm retired and I can afford to make all the soap I want and give it away.  I won't turn it down but, money's not my goal.  What I'm missing is interaction with other people.

I'm thinking that I could build up some stock and sell at local flea markets.  Make how and when I please and sell it when I have it.  Don't sell it when I don't.  I realize that this is not the way to build a business but, again I'm not in it for the money.  It's a different business model.

Here's what I think I need to look into:

Costs for ingredients which right now are a wild guess.
Costs for booth space.
Labeling requirements.
I can afford HSCG insurance but, I need to make sure it's enough.
Look into whether I need to register as a small business.
I only make true soap so I don't think the FDA is much of an issue but, need to do more research.

Anything I'm missing?


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## shunt2011 (Mar 18, 2019)

Yes, you are missing something. Once you sell you are a business....then you need to file as a business for taxes etc.......Also have to pay sales tax.


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## ilovebathing (Mar 18, 2019)

Here's a few things I learned along the way MickeyRat, hope it helps no matter what you decide to do:
1. Talk to your accountant (Shunt2011 points out so that's awesome)
2. Create a business plan, this will help you understand what audience are you selling to, your goals, making a name for yourself
3. Vendor list and a budget sheet.  This keeps track of how much I spend every month and keep track of vendors that give me the best prices on my soapy materials.
4.  Be realistic, what do you like or hate?  Shipping ? Making labels? wrapping the soap? Do I want to make custom batches? Also, do you have someone helping you?  If you have help and this is a good thing, sometimes we can't be jack of all trades, I don't really believe in that personally.  When I started selling, I realized I learned a lot about myself.  Also, talking to other soap makers who sell, talk to the ones that sell their soaps.  How are they selling it to you?  Is anything they say helpful?  I have found that even walking around the farmers market and even the mall, that I find that they give me something to think about (I also call it R&D time, Research and Development). 
5. Go to your nearest city hall or online,  search for small business class and sometimes they give free classes and advice.  

The great thing is, you have time.  I work a 40 hours  which I love as well, so time isn't what I have right now.  I just have to be patient and see where this goes...

Good luck!  and I'm sure what business route you do is going to be great!


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## DawninWA (Mar 18, 2019)

I sell at the little local farmers market because it's fun.  I then have a few months to regroup and not make soap.  I make enough to pay for my supplies and time, but if I had to do it for a living, I think I'd hate it.  People tell me I should sell online, but I don't want to.  There are thousands of soap sellers on etsy.  I like seeing people pick up my soap and smell it.  Sometimes making a nice face, sometimes not (patchouli).  For me, it's about interacting with people.  

There is another soap vendor at the same market, but our products are very dissimilar.  They have a bit of a gimmick where they use water that is from a local mineral water lake touted as having healing properties.  They have a few different scents (essential oils only) and everything is all natural, and all the same color.  Mine have all sorts of fragrance oils and essential oils and many are colored with mica.  I do have some all natural soaps, but people stop because they see the colors.


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## DWinMadison (Mar 18, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> Yes, you are missing something. Once you sell you are a business....then you need to file as a business for taxes etc.......Also have to pay sales tax.



Yep, and it introduces all kinds of complications to your taxes.  You’ll probably want to incorporate, so you’ll have to decide on a type of corp:  sole proprietorship, LLC, etc.  If you use your vehicle for business and personal, there’s accounting there.  Don’t mix your personal and business expenses (e.g. buying supplies from your joint checking account).  Don’t forget business insurance.  Owning a business can be fun, but it does take “care and feeding.”

Interesting thread as my wife and I are considering how to make this a very real, but part-time business in retirement as supplemental income.  I have confidence in my soaping skills...especially with a few years to improve consistency. I’ve run a major business as CEO for a long time, so budgeting, marketing, managing expenses, etc. are all second nature. My only apprehension is related to the will and energy to make it successful. I’m hoping this would be something the wife and I might enjoy doing together.


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## Misschief (Mar 19, 2019)

DWinMadison said:


> Interesting thread as my wife and I are considering how to make this a very real, but part-time business in retirement as supplemental income.  I have confidence in my soaping skills...especially with a few years to improve consistency. I’ve run a major business as CEO for a long time, so budgeting, marketing, managing expenses, etc. are all second nature. My only apprehension is related to the will and energy to make it successful. I’m hoping this would be something the wife and I might enjoy doing together.


OT but a hot button for my husband and me...THE wife? She's YOUR wife. (end rant...not much of a ranter, am I?)


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## MadTeddyBear (Mar 19, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> Yes, you are missing something. Once you sell you are a business....then you need to file as a business for taxes etc.......Also have to pay sales tax.



You don't necessarily need to file taxes as a business (depending on the state?), but creating a business is a lot better.  If you classify it as a hobby with the IRS you pay taxes on gross income and there are strict rules on deductions for expenses.  Right now I can't register as a business, so I'll probably start selling and reporting as a hobby (with insurance, because you also lose protections offered by registering as a business).  If my website weren't essentially free I'd probably be losing money for a while.


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## Amy78130 (Mar 19, 2019)

Definitely good to be prepared! After a few years of making, I started selling my soap and other handmade goods on Etsy and locally. It is a saturated market, but I’m not hurting for business! Do lots of research and definitely try and find your nieche before your grand opening. Take some time to design your brand. Also, never sell yourself short, do research on what others are pricing at. It’s ok to price competitively, just not too low. Visit your local farmers markets and vendor fairs and don’t be afraid to ask questions! Most importantly, perfect your craft, have lots of fun experimenting and finding recipes that work for you! Have your family and friends try them and see what they think. You’ll know when the time is right to decide to expand or keep it a hobby. It’s definitely not a cheap hobby, but it’s very rewarding! Don’t worry if business starts out slow, it takes time to build a customer base. Hope this helps!!


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## Marilyn Norgart (Mar 19, 2019)

MadTeddyBear said:


> You don't necessarily need to file taxes as a business (depending on the state?), but creating a business is a lot better.  If you classify it as a hobby with the IRS you pay taxes on gross income and there are strict rules on deductions for expenses.  Right now I can't register as a business, so I'll probably start selling and reporting as a hobby (with insurance, because you also lose protections offered by registering as a business).  If my website weren't essentially free I'd probably be losing money for a while.



what protections do you lose as a business? from what I can tell you cant deduct anything if its a hobby but still pay taxes on all income from it but it definitely is interesting


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## shunt2011 (Mar 19, 2019)

I file with the IRS as a business.  And I don’t understand what protections you lose?  And yes, as a business I did lose money in the beginning,  but as a business I could write it off.  Which helped with my taxes greatly.  So I’m not understanding what you are trying to put across.  I pay sales tax for the state on my sales.   Couldn’t deduct anything as a hobby according to my accountant.


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## MadTeddyBear (Mar 20, 2019)

Sorry, I may not have been clear.  My issue with forming a legal business is I likely can't get the required business permits to operate out of our apartment.  I'm looking into other options (or to see if I'm missing something), but claiming everything as a hobby is the backup plan.  And selling as a hobby would likely be too expensive because none of the expenses can be deducted.  If we assume a 30% income tax rate to be safe, you'd have to sell ~140% of whatever you spend just to break even.  If I do start selling without an LLC, it'd be fully expecting to lose money and hoping to gain some experience and bring people to my website to buy more.  If I can bring traffic to my website I can still make sales with virtually no overhead, without that I would probably just hold off until I could deduct my expenses.

It's not a great option... but it *is *an option.

The protections you lose are for selling as a hobby, not an LLC.  Your business is responsible for any debts or lawsuits, not you personally. If something horrible happens then you just lose your business instead of possibly going personally bankrupt.  But I'm guessing you already knew that .


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## ilovebathing (Mar 21, 2019)

Amy78130 said:


> Take some time to design your brand. Also, never sell yourself short, do research on what others are pricing at. It’s ok to price competitively, just not too low. Visit your local farmers markets and vendor fairs and don’t be afraid to ask questions! Most importantly, perfect your craft, have lots of fun experimenting and finding recipes that work for you! Have your family and friends try them and see what they think. You’ll know when the time is right to decide to expand or keep it a hobby. It’s definitely not a cheap hobby, but it’s very rewarding! Don’t worry if business starts out slow, it takes time to build a customer base.


It's definitely a learning experience in terms of pricing competitively and branding.  I think the second time around on renaming my brand, I am going to give myself a year or so to rethink on ingredients and what kinds of soaps I want to sell.  In the beginning, it became such an addiction.  I bought things that I haven't used, and whether I like certain items to go onto my product like micas etc.  I sold some because it is definitely not something that is a "cheap" and people that don't make soap would not understand that wholeheartedly IMO.  I am also a photographer and a visual artist, so that in itself is quite expensive!  Now, I plan to slow it down a notch, learn from others, continue the creative process, and have fun again.  It was quite stressful being on Etsy, so I'm not sure what to do with that site at this point.  I was thinking of going on a vacation after my sale is over, so I can move forward in recreating a brand that I can be proud of...


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## DWinMadison (Mar 21, 2019)

Misschief said:


> OT but a hot button for my husband and me...THE wife? She's YOUR wife. (end rant...not much of a ranter, am I?)


LOL... Hows about I manage my married, if it's all the same to you.  You'll note I also referred to her as "my wife" in the first five words of the post.  I have the utmost respect, love and admiration for the incredible woman with whom I've chosen to spend my life.  I'm the single luckiest man on the planet because God gifted me with her 30 years ago next month.  Thanks for sticking up for women everywhere, but rest assured, it was purely a term of endearment.


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## earlene (Mar 22, 2019)

I think it's a matter of perspective of what is lost.  I would rather lose my business than go personally bancrupt.  So for me, from my perspective is that if I were sued as an individual selling soap I would be in danger of much worse than if my company were sued.  Do I want to risk my home and my personal property for selling soap?  Not on your life.

Oh, I see we are actually on the same page.  It was a mis-reading of the way you said that.  Clearly your later response clarified what you meant and I had not yet read that before my above statement.


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## Donee' (Mar 31, 2019)

So how is the selling going?
Feedback Feedback Feedback demmit - i cant wait for feeeedbackkkkkk


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## cmzaha (Mar 31, 2019)

MadTeddyBear said:


> Sorry, I may not have been clear.  My issue with forming a legal business is I likely can't get the required business permits to operate out of our apartment.  I'm looking into other options (or to see if I'm missing something), but claiming everything as a hobby is the backup plan.  And selling as a hobby would likely be too expensive because none of the expenses can be deducted.  If we assume a 30% income tax rate to be safe, you'd have to sell ~140% of whatever you spend just to break even.  If I do start selling without an LLC, it'd be fully expecting to lose money and hoping to gain some experience and bring people to my website to buy more.  If I can bring traffic to my website I can still make sales with virtually no overhead, without that I would probably just hold off until I could deduct my expenses.
> 
> It's not a great option... but it *is *an option.
> 
> The protections you lose are for selling as a hobby, not an LLC.  Your business is responsible for any debts or lawsuits, not you personally. If something horrible happens then you just lose your business instead of possibly going personally bankrupt.  But I'm guessing you already knew that .


Do not bet on the fact you will not be responsible personally for business losses. Many times you can be held responsible.


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## melinda48 (Apr 1, 2019)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> True! I think most people would be happiest working as the soap maker for someone running the business side, like an artist with an agent, almost


That is exactly the situation I am lucky enough to have.My husband, for many years, taught entrepreneurship at a local university and had his own business to boot. He is an outstanding resource. He keeps me accountable and enables me to enjoy the “making.”.



Sultana said:


> What a fantastic post. I have been at this since 2003. I am constantly amazed by the amount of soapers and bath and body "producers" that try a receipe that weekend and then are selling it on the market the following weekend. It makes for a bad reputation for all handcrafted soapers. There is a reason why there are bath and body regulations. When the day comes that the FDA decides to start going after the handcrafted market (and eventually they will) the "competition" will be cut down 90%.


I sincerely hope that does not happen for a long long time. The very last thing we need is more government regulation.


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## sudszensoaps (Apr 1, 2019)

Sarah Seaton said:


> Hi!  I wasn't sure if this was the right topic to post under, but I think it fits.  I have only been making CP soaps for a little while now and am nowhere near ready to sell any.  However, I was thinking down the line that it is something I would like to do once I perfect my recipe and test it out for awhile.  I recently read a long post of all the things that one needs to keep in mind before selling or starting a business and I guess it kind of scared me away from it.  My question is to all of those who sell their soaps, do you think it is worth it or would you recommend keeping it a hobby?  Also, if you do suggest selling eventually, what kind of market is best?  Craft shows?  Etsy?
> Thank you!


I started out with the intent to sell while working full time. I've been a small business owner before, and I don't like the tedium of owning a business. I decided to just sell to friends and family, and then to cover the costs. The soap making/selling market is saturated at this point and you would need something new and different to be successful.



Sarah Seaton said:


> Hi!  I wasn't sure if this was the right topic to post under, but I think it fits.  I have only been making CP soaps for a little while now and am nowhere near ready to sell any.  However, I was thinking down the line that it is something I would like to do once I perfect my recipe and test it out for awhile.  I recently read a long post of all the things that one needs to keep in mind before selling or starting a business and I guess it kind of scared me away from it.  My question is to all of those who sell their soaps, do you think it is worth it or would you recommend keeping it a hobby?  Also, if you do suggest selling eventually, what kind of market is best?  Craft shows?  Etsy?
> Thank you!



I started out several years ago with the intent to sell soaps. I had been a small business owner before, and never liked the TDM of owning a business. I have since decided to only produce enough soap to sell to friends and family. And generally only to cover costs. The market for selling and making soap is pretty saturated right now, and you would need something really special to stand out.


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## MadTeddyBear (Apr 2, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> Do not bet on the fact you will not be responsible personally for business losses. Many times you can be held responsible.



That's true.  From my (extremely limited) understanding you usually have to be doing something illegal, unethical, or negligent to be held legally liable, or have personal and business finances intermingled to  be financially liable for a debt.


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## cmzaha (Apr 2, 2019)

MadTeddyBear, in many cases especially when acquiring bonds and bank accounts for small business you end up being required to personally guarantee. So no, it does not mean you are doing anything illegal to be held responsible, and not intermingling finances. Corporations are not a guarantee you will be free of problems. Have good insurance


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## kasilofchrisn (Apr 3, 2019)

from my understanding it depends on how you set your business up on whether or not you will be liable for business debts or expenses should the business fail or be sued.
From legal zoom:
https://info.legalzoom.com/llc-mean-end-company-name-4496.html
Limited Liability

The "limited liability" in LLCs refers to the fact that owners, called members, are protected from personal liability for the business actions of the company. Consequently, if the LLC is sued or runs up debt, the personal assets of members cannot, in most cases, be used to satisfy claims from plaintiffs or creditors. This is a feature that LLC members have in common with the shareholders of corporations. However, liability is "limited" because members are not immune to suits involving civil wrongdoing, also known as a tort.


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## Lin19687 (Apr 3, 2019)

I think in the end, no matter what you do, there is always a way from someone to take you to court ... and you could lose.

The joys of a sue happy world.


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## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

kasilofchrisn said:


> from my understanding it depends on how you set your business up on whether or not you will be liable for business debts or expenses should the business fail or be sued.
> From legal zoom:
> https://info.legalzoom.com/llc-mean-end-company-name-4496.html
> Limited Liability
> ...




Exactly.  Even an LLC is LIMITED.  We owned a restaurant. It was an LLC.  We were never personally sued, but if we had been guilty of some sort of civil wrongdoing in our business, we still could have been personally liable.  The LLC would not have protected us from such a lawsuit.  The same would be true of a soapmaker with an LLC.  The question is really, what civil wrongdoing is the soapmaker likely to participate in?  Hopefully no-one here will be doing that.  But it can happen.

I agree whole-hardheartedly that good insurance is essential in any business, as Carolyn mentions.  But even insurance won't guard against criminal intent, so that's another caveat.  But then again, what soapmaker has criminal intent with their product?  No one here, for sure!


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## kasilofchrisn (Apr 3, 2019)

Lawsuits aside as that's a separate issue we were also discussing business debt.
If you formed a proper LLC you would not be liable for the debts of the business against your personal property.
Meaning they can't take your house or put a lien on it because you're soap business failed.
Now if you sold soap that you knew was moldy and somebody got sick from it and you were sued civily for that you would not be protected just because you had an LLC.
But as was said I don't see anybody here purposely doing something like that.
And yes insurance is always a good idea in situations like this.


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## cerelife (Apr 4, 2019)

Before I started selling, I sat down with a lawyer to determine if spending the extra money to create a LLC would be preferable to a DBA.
I also contracted an accounting firm to do both my business taxes and our personal taxes and asked their advice as well.
They both gave me the same advice to go with a DBA for these reasons:
1) There was no real benefit to my creating a corporation since I didn't plan to establish lines of credit with vendors to purchase my supplies. In other words - I wouldn't be in the position of having outstanding debts if my business failed and the vendors sued for the debt.
2) If my LLC was sued for damages, I as the sole soapmaker/product creator would almost certainly be named personally in the lawsuit as well. Which means that our personal assets are now fair game.
And I just want to be clear on this since people have mentioned it - you don't have to have 'intent' to sell a dangerous/shady product to be sued. Anyone can sue you for the silliest of reasons, but they do have to prove that you were negligent or had 'intent' in order to win the lawsuit. Even if you win the lawsuit, you may be left with court/attorney fees unless you counter sue for these.
This is one scenario that the lawyer and I discussed:
A customer purchases a bar of soap/wax tart/etc. that smells good enough to eat and looks like food - then their child actually eats some of it. They take their child to the ER and then sue you for the bill and whatever else they can think up (mental distress/time off from work/etc) even though your product is clearly labeled as soap or whatever. Their main claim/basis for the lawsuit is that you didn't specifically say that this item was non-edible.
Of course this is completely outrageous and they would most likely never win such a case, but as the lawyer said: "As a LLC, you would have to defend both your corporation for allowing the product to be sold, and yourself personally as the maker of product in question."
And of course we have business insurance for nonsense like this, but the lawyer's advice was that if you ever get hit with frivolous lawsuit as a small business owner; file a countersuit to pay for your damages rather than file a claim with your insurance.


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## Rune (Apr 4, 2019)

Sarah Seaton said:


> Hi!  I wasn't sure if this was the right topic to post under, but I think it fits.  I have only been making CP soaps for a little while now and am nowhere near ready to sell any.  However, I was thinking down the line that it is something I would like to do once I perfect my recipe and test it out for awhile.  I recently read a long post of all the things that one needs to keep in mind before selling or starting a business and I guess it kind of scared me away from it.  My question is to all of those who sell their soaps, do you think it is worth it or would you recommend keeping it a hobby?  Also, if you do suggest selling eventually, what kind of market is best?  Craft shows?  Etsy?
> Thank you!



I don't sell, but I want to. I have a way to go before I'm ready to sell, though. Need more experience and get my recipe there I want it and such. 

I don't know how things are in America, but I can sell for around $465 a year without paying any tax or make any business or things like that. I can just sell, and as long as I don't sell over that amount, it is considered a hobby and not a business. That is great, because I can start selling just like that and see how it goes and how I like it. Maybe you have similar rules in America, or other countries too? Worth checking out. But I know it is much harder to start selling for those located in an EU country. I do have some rules to follow, but not comparable to the EU.

My plan for selling is to use an online service we have called Epla (similar to Etsy, just much smaller scale) and on commission in one or two local shops. If that doesn't work, I will come up with something else. Probably try to sell abroad, if possible. This country is a liquid soap country. I can't even get my family to use my soaps. They have never tried them, actually. So selling can be hard in countries like this. We'll see. The positive thing is that the competition is low and prices quite high (not so good that the ingredients are too).

If you want to sell, I think you should when you are ready for it. Why not? You can always quit selling at any time. If you never try, you will never know if you hate it or love it. Just remember to charge a decent price for your soaps. It is handmade with love and good ingredients, not a Walmart product. Everybody lose when people try to compete with each other on prices. Nobody can make a profit when the prices fall in a never ending downward spiral.


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## Dahila (Apr 4, 2019)

Rune from the moment I decide to make it a business (tiny one) I had the insurance coverage, I would not risk it, In Canada if you do not go over 30 thousand a year; sales you do not have to get gst (tax) number or take taxes from customers to send to government   A lot of people sell in Canada without Business license and insurance but it it against the law,  Everything that has contact with skin must be send (the formula) to Canada Health


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## Rune (Apr 4, 2019)

Yes, America and insurance everywhere, of course. Luckily I don't need insurance here for selling soap. It have to be really, really bad if someone can press charges on me. As long as I mark the ingredients correctly and don't add anything not-approved for cosmetics, nobody can do anything. Perhaps if I make a very lye heavy soap that cause permanent damage to people, they can sue me. Nobody can sue me if they get severe allergic reactions and I have every ingredient written on the label and used ingredients sold to me as cosmetic safe. The customers are responsible for reading labels themselves. To sue people is a risky business in this country. If you lose, you will have to pay all the expenses. And that can be very serious high amounts. So people don't sue each other as often and for as little as in the US (I don't know how it is in Canada).

30 thousand, that is a very high amount. I can sell for 7.770 canadian dollars before I have to worry about VAT. But I will have to pay income tax if I sell for over 469 (roughly) US dollar, and register a company.

Luckily I don't have to send the formula for approval to Mattilsynet (food authority that also deals with cosmetics). But they have to do so in the EU.

I do have to make sure I follow the rules. The authority says: "Those who produce, import and sell cosmetics are responsible for complying with the regulations themselves". I see that not everybody do follow the rules and regulations in this country, but for me it is one of the most important things to do. It is safer to follow the rules strictly, not just for the customers but definately also for the seller.

We do have the strict EU regulation here for cosmetics, but I just have to make sure I follow it. Luckily I don't have to send everything to the authorities for approval. But they can do random checks at any times to see if it contains any harmful substances and things like that. Not that I have heard it have happened with handmade soaps, but the do check on a lot of things all the time.


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## cmzaha (Apr 5, 2019)

cerelife said:


> Before I started selling, I sat down with a lawyer to determine if spending the extra money to create a LLC would be preferable to a DBA.
> I also contracted an accounting firm to do both my business taxes and our personal taxes and asked their advice as well.
> They both gave me the same advice to go with a DBA for these reasons:
> 1) There was no real benefit to my creating a corporation since I didn't plan to establish lines of credit with vendors to purchase my supplies. In other words - I wouldn't be in the position of having outstanding debts if my business failed and the vendors sued for the debt.
> ...


A lot of this is my point. As for a child eating something they thought was food. Yep, had that happen with my daughters marshmallow soaps. The mom was driving opened up her "Cosmetic" sample box and handed the marshmallow soap back to her 3 yr old son to eat. He did and hurled up all over the back seat. She threatened to sue us, but the package was clearly labeled Soap do not eat. Actually it was labeled Soap on all sides of the label for just this reason. Fortunately we did not get sued. 

Many of the pointers that Cerelife mentions was my point that a corporation does not protect from everything. We have had a C- corp and a S-Corp and I can say I will Never have another Corporation. The S-Corp did not protect us from everything especially a credit card my partners ran up since it was personally guaranteed. In the ending my credit is trashed. The C-Corp did not protect our partner form mortgaging everything he had, including loans on retirement funds just to get rid of us... So he was not greatly protected


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## melinda48 (Apr 5, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> A lot of this is my point. As for a child eating something they thought was food. Yep, had that happen with my daughters marshmallow soaps. The mom was driving opened up her "Cosmetic" sample box and handed the marshmallow soap back to her 3 yr old son to eat. He did and hurled up all over the back seat. She threatened to sue us, but the package was clearly labeled Soap do not eat. Actually it was labeled Soap on all sides of the label for just this reason. Fortunately we did not get sued.
> 
> Many of the pointers that Cerelife mentions was my point that a corporation does not protect from everything. We have had a C- corp and a S-Corp and I can say I will Never have another Corporation. The S-Corp did not protect us from everything especially a credit card my partners ran up since it was personally guaranteed. In the ending my credit is trashed. The C-Corp did not protect our partner form mortgaging everything he had, including loans on retirement funds just to get rid of us... So he was not greatly protected[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## Lin19687 (Apr 5, 2019)

I think the main point is that you will never be completely safe from being taken to court.  Even if they do not win, you will lose money, your personal money as that is what you pay your self with from the earning of the Biz.

Gee I hope that made sense, it was so much better in my head


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## Dahila (Apr 5, 2019)

Rune , Canadian can sell up 30 thousand before they need to send taxes to government,  I mean Canadian citizens , it is different in Europe cause you have EU regulations


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## earlene (Apr 5, 2019)

Well, Rune, I think I want to move to Norway!  I don't think that will fly with my husband, but it sure sounds tempting.  But then again, since I don't want to start a business, I guess it doesn't matter quite as much.  Besides I'd not get to see my grands as often.

But I do love the learn about the differences of how businesses are regulated and the other factors that affect soapmakers all around the world, so thank you for posting all of you.


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## Rune (Apr 5, 2019)

Norway is nice, but cold (at least where I live), long winters and short summers. But summers can be hot, hotter than many places in the US, I found out one day I googled such things. But, it is not a good country for soapmakers. Maybe one of the worst. Everything is expensive, and we have next to nothing in grocery stores, don't have any soapmaking supply stores and ordering from abroad becomes expensive with customs and extra VAT. So this country is not at all good for soapmakers, no, or anyone making things from ingredients that can not be found here. 

Sweden is better. They are in the EU, so you can order whatever you want and how much you want from other EU countries, and only have to worry about shipping costs. But I think the swedes perhaps will have to send their formulas to some government authority for approval before selling. I don't know, but since they are in the EU, it is very likely. They have to do so in the UK.

Rice bran oil, that is an example of something I can't find anywhere here. Fragrance oils the same. I don't think we have micas either. Since we are only 5 million people over a large area, the market is very small for both selling things and buying what you need.

We have too many grocery stores. Which means that every single of them are too small and have too little goods, plus that they all have more or less exactly the same. I can be a challenge finding even the most basic of things at times. It is much better in bigger cities, like Oslo (which you would not call a city in the US, but a town).

I want to travel to the US one day. Not to New York or Los Angeles, but I dream of the more rural areas. Like somewhere in the Tornado Alley. A tornado holiday with tornado chasers, that would be a dream come true! Maybe too scary


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## cmzaha (Apr 5, 2019)

While an LLC is not a true Corp, many think of it as one and it still is not a 100% protection for personal. LLC's (Limited Liability Company) are loosely structured as Corporations.


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## earlene (Apr 5, 2019)

Well, now Rune, you would get along well with my son.  He chased hurricanes.  Scared the living bejesus out of me, that one did!  Then one year, my husband and I were in New Orleans during hurricane season and sent him a video of me and my pony-tail standing straight out behind my head from the hurricane's winds.  He was furious that I stayed for that.  Turn about's fair play, right?

You make some good points about access to supplies.  I had forgotten you encounter that all the time, as do some of our other members around the world.  Too bad there doesn't seem to be a place where a soaper can have the best of all worlds!  (unlimited access to reasonably priced supplies, low overhead, reasonably easily compliable legal requirements, fabulous opportunities for business, etc.)  Maybe there is, but I haven't noticed it yet.


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