# Goats Milk vs. Coconut Milk



## walkinwounded (Aug 26, 2011)

Trying to decide whats better to use and why. What are the benificial properties of either, why would you use one over the other?


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## Soaplady22 (Aug 26, 2011)

Oh - you want educated advice. Well I guess that rules _m_e out. 

But I can tell you this - they are two different animals.


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 26, 2011)

Personal feelings about milk?  Since you're not looking for opinions I won't give you mine.  I will say that you will turn people off answering your questions by putting conditions on them.


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## busymakinsoap! (Aug 26, 2011)

I have used both, and I feel differently about both of them, However if you want educated, technical advice you might want to do some research yourself. Or make a couple of batches - and see how _you feel _ about it

I'm with PrairieCraft, I found your question a little off putting


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## walkinwounded (Aug 26, 2011)

I apologize, I did not mean to offend anyone. Sometimes a subject can start a great debate about how some may feel towards methods based on maybe "how there grandmother made soap" and they may lead of the path of objectivity and the purpose on passing knowledge on to those who are less experienced such as myself. So to avoid some of that clutter I posted in the manner I did. I will take this as a learning experience on being more vigilant about how I write things and being respectful.

I am trying to avoid fubaring up a couple of batches at my expense, soap supplies are costly.

Again I apologize and would greatly appreciate any advice.


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 26, 2011)

Thanks, for doing that.  It's intimidating to people who would otherwise want to share.  Sometimes you may just have to sift through all of the info people throw at you. Some of which you won't necessarily want or need.  Being open to it encourages open discourse and friendly attitudes.  You might even come across a useful tidbit here or there that you weren't expecting.

Using coconut milk will give you the benefits of the additional fat and your soap can be vegan.  Goat milk, not vegan.  

That may or may not matter to you or the people who will use your soap.  Maybe it depends on what region you're in.  This is a difference that stands out for me.  Scientific and educated, nah.  Useful to know, yes.

Coconut milk is also handy to use as it can be stored in cans unrefrigerated.

I find that a lot of soapmaking comes down to personal preference and soap crafters tend to work by trial and error and go with what they _feel_ is better.  There are quite a few chemists here who look at it in a more scientific way.

I've never compared but you might want to look at the fat content of c.milk vs. g.milk.  

There are a lot of people here who use goat milk because they raise goats and have their own milk.

Sorry, if this is the sort of rambling you were hoping to avoid. :wink:


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## walkinwounded (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you very much, that is the kinda stuff I was looking for, I guess I sort of speak *"shot myself in the foot"* trying to avoid the clutter, because I could have missed out on some great advice . Cause you addressed the matter of fat content which I never thought, and the vegan issue would explain why some people do prefer the coconut milk. 
Thank you for the great advice. Storage is a good point as Gm is so expensive here, maybe I should look in to raiseing some


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 26, 2011)

I started liking c.milk better after my g.milk went off in the fridge waiting on me to have time for soaping.  I have since started to freeze the g.milk in ice cube trays and then store in freezer bags.  This, however, takes up very valuable ice cream storage space in the freezer.  

IME the c.milk doesn't need to be frozen to work with.  It does go dark in the lye but if I add the lye slowly while stirring it's fine and stays really light in the cured soap even if I gel it.  

Freezing the milk helps prevent the over browning or burning of the sugar that is found in any milk which can cause your soap to be tan or darker than you might want.

The sugar, btw is another benefit of milk.  I'm sure you've read to add sugar to your lye for better lather.  When I use any milk I skip adding the sugar to prevent overheating, figuring that I don't need to double up on the sugar.

Wow, I'm long winded tonight.


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## busymakinsoap! (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm no scientist, but here are my thoughts..

the fat content of GM is around 5%
the fat content of coconut cream is about 20% (coconut milk has more water)

This is a huge difference - however, coconut cream is high in lauric acid as is coconut oil (no surprises there).  Coconut oil cannot be used in high percentages in soap as it can be drying.  So my guess (and from the feelings of my bars) is that coconut cream has the same effect.

I can't say I have experimented a lot with coconut cream, however I have made a 100% coconut oil bar with coconut cream and a 20% superfat - it's very drying or squeaky cleanish.  I had complaints when I gave it to others to try.  I have just tested it again, and after 6 months cure it is still harsh.

It might be worth trying it with a combo of other oils, but my guess is, it would need to have a fairly high superfat.

Lauric acid also contributes to bubbles, so it could be used to add bubbles to a bar?  I'm just thinking out loud, not science.

I could be way off track with my 'thinkings' but I'm still experimenting myself.  I look forward to hearing others experiences


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## walkinwounded (Aug 26, 2011)

*PrairieCraft* 
_Moderator_

Does the preservatives and additives in canned coconut milk contribute any negative or positive factors to the soap? Do you use CP or HP method? Can you use HP method with milk based solutions? I have never read or heard of adding sugar to your lye solution to improve lather, seriously


*busymakinsoap!*
_Enthusiast_

The fat contents are a large difference, your saying that even though it has a higher fat content does not make it more conditioning or moisturizing because of the high  lauric acid content.

Seriously, I love this place, so much information![/b][/i]


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 26, 2011)

busymakinsoap! said:
			
		

> the fat content of coconut cream is about 20% (coconut milk has more water)



The coconut cream I've found has a lot of additives and I've never used it for soap. 

The coconut milk has one preservative, potassium metabisulfite.  A quick search shows it is used in wine and beer and other food products.  Can't tell you exactly what it is but as far as I can tell it has had no impact on my soap.  I'm sure the percentage of it used in the milk is low, then the milk as a part of the total ingredients of the soap is an even lower percentage.  

I'm not good at math at all but I think the c.milk is about 14% fat.  In a 13.5 oz can 2.1oz are fat.

I CP, haven't had to HP any milk soaps.  I only use HP for FOs that seize because I don't care for the way it looks and it isn't as easy to work with.  You just can't do some of the things with HP that you can with CP.

A lot of soapers recommend adding sugar to your water before you add the lye.  Keep reading and searching old threads, you will find more info than you can believe.

FWIW, I don't have a problem with a 100% CO soap with a 20% superfat, as far as it being drying to the skin.


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## walkinwounded (Aug 26, 2011)

*PraireCraft*
_Moderator_

What is your opinion on gelling, why should one "gel or not to gel" in CP?
Do you use sodium lactate in yout saop to make harder bars?[/b]


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 26, 2011)

Gel--ready to unmold sooner, soap may be darker, potential for overheating, not sure if this is proven but the higher temps may effect more delicate FOs and EOs (someone will come along and correct me if I'm wrong on this)

No Gel--may take days to be hard enough to unmold, more potential for the dreaded partial gel (IMO), soaps stay lighter in color, soap will stay 'zappy' longer, milk soaps, soap made with honey or other sugars and some FOs may gel anyway

This might not cover everything but these are the basic differences.  Depending on your formula some of these 'issues' may not pertain.

I tried sodium lactate in some HP soaps to get a smoother glop (there is no pour with HP)  It did make the soap look smoother and they were harder but it gives the soap a shiny look that I don't like.  I don't use it because of that and I'm going for as few ingredients as possible for the most part.


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## walkinwounded (Aug 26, 2011)

*PrairieCraft*
_Moderator_

Thank you so much for letting me pick your brain, you have helped me out a great deal, I wish I could return the favour. 
One more question for the road if I may, you mentioned adding sugar to lye solution, would using honey in your recipe be the same idea? I usually add honey at light trace diluted in some water taken before the addition of Lye.


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 26, 2011)

Yes, honey does the same job the sugar would do.  I add my honey to my water and dissolve before adding the lye.  I added it at trace exactly once and it oozed out of the bars, never again.  Happy to help you with the basics.  Post some pics of your soaps for us, we all love to see what people are working on.  It's a great way to inspire and be inspired.


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## walkinwounded (Aug 26, 2011)

I will poste some pics when I get home forsure. I have made several batches of soap, but never with the same ingrediants, and each one has gave different results and qualities that some others may not have, so in my attempt to save money and forgo the trial and error process to find out which ones are the ones that are producing the qualities I am looking for, I have been picking everyones brain.


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 27, 2011)

Think very, very basic.  Less is more.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2011)

I believe the difference given by dairy milk largely comes from the protein content, where coconut has much less. 

Yes, the milk also contains sugars, but you can add your own sugars to the soap and it contains fat, but you can add your own fats.

In another thread, people were complaining about the bad smell that comes with coconut milk. Dairy also has its own smells, but I believe the coconut stench comes from some form of rancidity, which is not apparent in the original product.

For an unneducated suggestion, you could replace coconut milk with coconut oil, and put dairy milk instead. 

------
I never used sodium lactate. Where would one purchase it? Are there any benefits compared to salt ?


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## walkinwounded (Aug 27, 2011)

*Starum*
_Newcomer_

Thanx for the input, what you say makes a lot of sense, I have used sodium lactate, I purchased it from my local soap supply store- saffireblue.com. The first time I used sodium lactate was in my first batch of HP. I swirled easily and tha bars cured hard, I never did HP without so I can not say forsure, but I get the impression that HP is difficult to work with because it is clumpy, sticky paste, sodium lactate makes it better. It is used as a persevative in some foods, and it acts a humecant like glycerin. Like I said, I never did HP without it as I'm a newbie soaper, but by the sounds of it, sodium lactate may change all the CP diehards in to giving HP another shot, cause all the reasons people do CP over HP are now cured from the sodium lactate, other then the extra work of cooking it, or weather or not you like the look difference between the two as *PraireCraft* mentioned, it does give your soap a shiny look.

You mentioned achieving a pink look rather then a brown appearence, do you know how? Would adding powdered GM after the cooking phase in HP be an acceptable route to avoid the browning and still get the benefits of GM?



*PrairieCraft*
_Moderator_

Less is more often, thanx for all the great advice and friendly chat!


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 27, 2011)

Starum said:
			
		

> I believe the difference given by dairy milk largely comes from the protein content, where coconut has much less.
> 
> Yes, the milk also contains sugars, but you can add your own sugars to the soap and it contains fat, but you can add your own fats.
> 
> ...



Not sure about the protein comment, have never heard of protein in soap as being beneficial.

We know sugar effects soap and we know fat effects soap but protein?  I'll have to look that up.

No one ever talked about coconut milk being rancid in the other thread.  Coconut milk is not rancid.  You get an ammonia smell initially when you use any milk in soap and that smell goes away with cure time.


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## carebear (Aug 27, 2011)

Rancidity is unlikely in coconut. Seriously, think about it. Milk fat is MUCH less resistant to it than coconut.


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## PippiL (Aug 27, 2011)

Made coconut milk soap only once, love goatsmilk..but I will try coconut again for sure


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## IrishLass (Aug 27, 2011)

I believe Starum is onto something about the protein. According to one of my most wise soaping mentors on another forum who also has the benefit of a chemistry background, the protein in milk is the main reason it's so lovely in soap. Protein is what gives soap that wonderful, silky feeling. That's also why a lot of soapers like to add silk- it's also a protein. Eggs in soap also gives a nice silky oomph to the lather. Also according to my mentor, it's those same proteins that tend to give off those initial stinky, ammonia-type smells when mixed with lye. Thankfully, they are pretty volatile and don't stick around for long. 


IrishLass


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## walkinwounded (Aug 29, 2011)

I am going to try and make some soap with GM and CM this week.

Here is a pic of my first batch and the dreaded partial gel, I think, you judge. It sure lathers and feels nice.




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

These are some basic HP with simple oil recipe, but unstead of just water, I used oatmeal water and aloe vera water 50-50, then I infused my oils with chamomile, I used sodium lactate on them, and a hoste of other skin happy ingrediants. 
1.Lime EO and Coconut FO




2. Bitter Orang EO, Ylang Ylang EO, and Pink Grapefruit EO




3.Activated Charcole swirl with patchoulli Eo and Vetiver EO with Lime EO




4.Shaving soap with bentonite and ground oatmeal done CP with sodium lactate to harden, still waiting to cure, some FO's




5. And my only liquid soap batch that I've been satisfied with, the other 6 or 7 had something or other wrong that I could not settle with. Used KOH and simple oils, all kinds of additives, natural and skin pleasing in some way.





Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 29, 2011)

IrishLass said:
			
		

> I believe Starum is onto something about the protein. According to one of my most wise soaping mentors on another forum who also has the benefit of a chemistry background, the protein in milk is the main reason it's so lovely in soap. Protein is what gives soap that wonderful, silky feeling. That's also why a lot of soapers like to add silk- it's also a protein. Eggs in soap also gives a nice silky oomph to the lather. Also according to my mentor, it's those same proteins that tend to give off those initial stinky, ammonia-type smells when mixed with lye. Thankfully, they are pretty volatile and don't stick around for long.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



The egg soap was the first relevant thread I came across when searching for protein.  Forgot about the silk being a protein, even though I've used it before. :roll: 

Soo...Do you have a little more info on the topic to share?  Along the line of;
sugar = bubbles, lather
excess fat = nicer to skin (scared to make the medical claim and say moisturizing!)
protein = ???

From what I remember of the silk bars it seemed like the lather was smooth, milk bars seem creamy, haven't tried the egg yet.  Can anyone say what it is that the protein creates in a bar?  Wonder if some sort of protein powder would do anything for soap?


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## Hazel (Aug 29, 2011)

walkinwounded - 

Your soaps look great but I'm really impressed by the charcoal one. You did a great job on swirling the color.

This has been a very interesting and informative post. I didn't know about protein in GM contributing to silkiness.


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## eden (Aug 30, 2011)

PrairieCraft said:
			
		

> Freezing the milk helps prevent the over browning or burning of the sugar that is found in any milk which can cause your soap to be tan or darker than you might want.



just thought I'd add my 2 cents  ...I use some form of dairy (usually 1/2 & 1/2) in all my soaps - I add it to the soap 'batter' shortly after I have begun to mix the lye solution & oils together - _rather_ than using it as _part_ of my lye solution ...no need to freeze it - the soap does not darken at all with this method.  Of course if you are using milk for 100% of your liquid, that's a differnt story ... I will typically use the 1/2 & 1/2 for about 20-25% of my liquid; the lye will get dissolved the rest which is water ... just FYI


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## PrairieCraft (Aug 30, 2011)

To be honest when I use coconut milk, it's straight out of the can at room temp.  Haven't had a problem.  I do like to use 100% milk for a milk soap.  If you're going to go, go all the way.


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## kharmon320 (Aug 30, 2011)

I used coconut milk a few weeks ago.  When the lye/coconut milk sat for a few minutes it ended up a thick, congealed, curdled mess.  Is that fairly normal?

The soap turned out just great, but was curious if everyone gets that consistency.  I'm sure it was just saponifying the fat in the coconut milk before I combined it with the oils.


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## Hazel (Aug 30, 2011)

I had that happen to me so I don't think it's abnormal.


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## IrishLass (Aug 30, 2011)

eden said:
			
		

> PrairieCraft said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's what I do with my milk soaps, too, and I always get nice, off-white soaps. They don't ever get tan or brown at all (unless I use a discoloring FO and/or honey, that is). If I want to do a 100% GM soap, I just dissolve enough goat milk powder into my fresh goat milk to make up the difference and then soap as normal. Works great and they still come out very light- no tan or brown to be seen.


IrishLass


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## walkinwounded (Aug 31, 2011)

*IrishLass*

How and when do you add your honey?
Could I add the honey in the GM and GM powder after light trace, would this prevent browning from the honey?
And if I did your method of adding GM 1/2 and 1/2 after light trace, then if I did it HP, would it still brown, assuming your doing yours CP?


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## eden (Aug 31, 2011)

kharmon320 said:
			
		

> I used coconut milk a few weeks ago.  When the lye/coconut milk sat for a few minutes it ended up a thick, congealed, curdled mess.  Is that fairly normal?
> 
> The soap turned out just great, but was curious if everyone gets that consistency.  I'm sure it was just saponifying the fat in the coconut milk before I combined it with the oils.



  that sounds like a correct deduction ...makes sense to me


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## IrishLass (Aug 31, 2011)

walkinwounded said:
			
		

> *IrishLass*
> 
> How and when do you add your honey?
> Could I add the honey in the GM and GM powder after light trace, would this prevent browning from the honey?
> And if I did your method of adding GM 1/2 and 1/2 after light trace, then if I did it HP, would it still brown, assuming your doing yours CP?



I do mine CP, so I can't comment on doing it via HP. Hopefully someone who does will chime in on that. 

For CP I dissolve/dilute my honey in a little water from my water amount that I've set aside, and then I mix the honey solution right into my lye solution after it has cooled down. I started doing it this way after trying it once and noticing that my finished bars from that batch did not weep honey out like my other honey batches did. My theory as to why it prevents weeping is because honey, being water soluble, mixes more readily and quite well into the lye/water solution as opposed to being stickblended into my oils first. Or it could just as well be that maybe I just didn't stickblend my honey into the oils as well as I thought I had. In any case, mixing it into my lye water works for me. It turns my soap dark tan, but that's okay since I only add honey to my milk soaps that contain oatmeal as an additive, and the color seems to go along quite well with the theme.

I'll have to try mixing it into my milk and adding it at light trace to see what happens. I have not tried that yet.

IrishLass


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## walkinwounded (Sep 1, 2011)

O.K. Notice the word _"seems", _I'm not a professional.

So heres what I learned after a couple of days worth of soaping.

Coconut Milk/or cream makes a nice lather, tons of bubbles, feels great, nice light soft feeling.

Goats Milk has less bubbles, seems to be richer/creamier lather/softer and seems to leave the skin more moisturized. You can not HP with GM though without getting a really dark brown,almost orange colour. 

Almond Milk is very similar to Coconut Milk in regards to feel and other properties,  but is Vigan (spelling).

I made bars and liquid soap using KOH for the liquid soap paste. I even tried to dilute the paste in pure GM, turned dark dark brown.




So I added Cocao Absolute and called it chocolate body wash, now I'm a hero with my wife. The caramilky smell of the burned sugar in the milk mixed with the Cocao is amazing smelling.

So for making HP soap paste for liquid soap with KOH that you do not want dark brown, I experimented with milk powders, the properties were the same for soap quality and attributes, but you are able to color and or keep a light color.




The light tan colour is from the honey I used during the soap making process that i added in the water.

All the bars that I used straight milk for came out very dark brown if I did them HP, but CP I was able to keep them a light tan colour by mixing the lye with water as half the liquid amount, then added the milk after I mixed the lye and oils together very well, I also added some milk powders to the milks to substitue for the discounted milk content . I'll have pics soon.


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