# Confirmation on Internet Info and other



## GlenS (Apr 2, 2019)

Hello,
   I am into my first two batches of hot process soap (real noobie)! I would like to ask the forum members if the information that "Cold Process Recipes can be Hot processed" is true or how true. 
  Also for what will be hot process bastille goatmilk and buttermilk, do you have to add appropriate scents to your batch to get a good scent. 
   I am trying to duplicate for myself a version of a commercial soap Crabtree and Evelyn Goatmilk and the unavailable Buttermilk soaps. At least eventually. 
   Seems that the mildness and goatmilk is good for sensitive skin and I have had no problems with the C&E goatmilk.
Cheers


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## shunt2011 (Apr 2, 2019)

You can do any recipe HP or CP. The only difference is you will need more liquid for HP.  As for adding fragrance that is totally up to you.  That's a personal choice.  Do you like unscented soap then go for it.   If not add a fragrance or EO.   As for milk soaps being good for sensitive skin, personally it's more about recipe than the milk.   I make milk soaps, mostly Coconut.  Tried goat's and buttermilk, cream etc.... Some have more fats or sugars etc.   I use them mostly as label appeal as I'm one who doesn't think a whole lot survives the lye monster.  Some add a bit more creaminess to the lather in my opinion.


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## GlenS (Apr 2, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> You can do any recipe HP or CP. The only difference is you will need more liquid for HP.  As for adding fragrance that is totally up to you.  That's a personal choice.  Do you like unscented soap then go for it.   If not add a fragrance or EO.   As for milk soaps being good for sensitive skin, personally it's more about recipe than the milk.   I make milk soaps, mostly Coconut.  Tried goat's and buttermilk, cream etc.... Some have more fats or sugars etc.   I use them mostly as label appeal as I'm one who doesn't think a whole lot survives the lye monster.  Some add a bit more creaminess to the lather in my opinion.


Howdy shunt2011,
      Thanks for the info on the CP and HP. Sorry but what do the EO's add to a soap? Scent I would like although not crucial. Will have to see if my batch of goatsmilk survives it's setting up to tell if I would like more suds. Can you suggest a reputable supplier of scents. Currently the soap is for personal use.
Appreciated


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## shunt2011 (Apr 2, 2019)

@GlenS -  Some of the suppliers for FO's -  Nature's Garden, Wholesale Supplies Plus, Nurture Soap, Elements Bath & Body, Rustic Escentuals, Brambleberry, Fragrance Buddy....we also have a fragrance review here on the forum.

Also, if you post your recipe we would be happy to give you some help.


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## Nate5700 (Apr 2, 2019)

Glen,

I have used powdered goat milk in all my cold-process soaps so far, it sounds like you might be using fresh goat milk so I don't know if that will produce different results. I would think it would be the same for hot-process as it is for cold (but I'm pretty new at this too). From what I understand even cold-process soap gets up to an internal temperature of 300 degrees F during the gel phase, so I don't think it would be an issue as far as whether the milk can stand up to the heat. I'd definitely be interested if a more experienced soaper could chime in on that though.

I do think something about the milk survives the lye. I haven't made a batch _without_ goat milk but have used soaps from the same brand with and without it. I get a similar feel on the skin from my soap as I did with the goat milk soap I bought, and did not get that feel on the soap that didn't have it. It seems to form a protective layer that I assume comes from the protein in the milk, and keeps the moisture in my skin for a longer period after using. Could be my imagination.


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## melinda48 (Apr 2, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Howdy shut2011,
> Thanks for the info on the CP and HP. Sorry but what do the EO's add to a soap? Scent I would like although not crucial. Will have to see if my batch of goatsmilk survives it's setting up to tell if I would like more suds. Can you suggest a reputable supplier of scents. Currently the soap is for personal use.
> Appreciated


EO is essential oil and it adds fragrance to a soap. You can use EO or fragrance oils-two different things.


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## lenarenee (Apr 2, 2019)

C &E’s ingredients are rather elusive......I can’t find them for their goats milk soap.

Do you have the packing?  List the ingredients and we can try to sort out its formula
  I’m very curious myself now!

I hope someone comes along to add to this, but I read that milk molecules are broken down by the lye which creates sodium lactate and its the SL that feels so good on the skin. Many people think SL also helps the lather.  This begs the question: would adding SL to soap do the same thing as adding milk?


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## DeeAnna (Apr 2, 2019)

You need to react lactic acid with NaOH to get sodium lactate. Milk has lactose, a sugar, that can be converted to lactic acid by fermentation -- in other words, you'd want to use yogurt, kefir, etc. to get lactate in your soap. Lactate from _fermented _dairy is going to be a small % of the whole, however -- you're better off just adding sodium lactate to get a decent % of it in your soap. Lactate from actual plain milk isn't going to happen.

Kevin Dunn did a study where he found the sugars in unfermented milk do react with lye, although they don't make lactate. The reaction raises the superfat of the soap more than you'd expect. Speaking from memory -- so don't hold me to this number -- I think Dunn found the superfat increase due to milk sugars is something around 4%, give or take.


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## Nate5700 (Apr 2, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> Speaking from memory -- so don't hold me to this number -- I think Dunn found the superfat increase due to milk sugars is something around 4%, give or take.



Would that be 4% of the superfat number (i.e., going from 10% to 10.4%) or adding 4% to the total number (going from 10% to 14%)?


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## GlenS (Apr 2, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> @GlenS -  Some of the suppliers for FO's -  Nature's Garden, Wholesale Supplies Plus, Nurture Soap, Elements Bath & Body, Rustic Escentuals, Brambleberry, Fragrance Buddy....we also have a fragrance review here on the forum.
> 
> Also, if you post your recipe we would be happy to give you some help.


That is great news on the fragrance reviews and thanks for the group of suppliers!! The recipes I used/created were mainly to test the water, nothing that I need to keep. I want to get the process down.  I actually now won't need soap for a while or I have to get dirtier quicker. 



Nate5700 said:


> Glen,
> 
> I have used powdered goat milk in all my cold-process soaps so far, it sounds like you might be using fresh goat milk so I don't know if that will produce different results. I would think it would be the same for hot-process as it is for cold (but I'm pretty new at this too). From what I understand even cold-process soap gets up to an internal temperature of 300 degrees F during the gel phase, so I don't think it would be an issue as far as whether the milk can stand up to the heat. I'd definitely be interested if a more experienced soaper could chime in on that though.
> 
> I do think something about the milk survives the lye. I haven't made a batch _without_ goat milk but have used soaps from the same brand with and without it. I get a similar feel on the skin from my soap as I did with the goat milk soap I bought, and did not get that feel on the soap that didn't have it. It seems to form a protective layer that I assume comes from the protein in the milk, and keeps the moisture in my skin for a longer period after using. Could be my imagination.


Howdy,
  The goatmilk soap solidified enough to cut it today. We may have a concurrent imagination on this issue {)! How much like goatmilk does your soap smell? I don't know about how mine will be in a week, but time will tell. The process and the heat and the stages have me nervous. I think I will follow a recipe and cross my fingers!
Thanks



melinda48 said:


> EO is essential oil and it adds fragrance to a soap. You can use EO or fragrance oils-two different things.


Appreciate your response and the information. I hadn't a clue, honestly! I will worry about that a bit later I think.
Cheers



lenarenee said:


> C &E’s ingredients are rather elusive......I can’t find them for their goats milk soap.
> 
> Do you have the packing?  List the ingredients and we can try to sort out its formula
> I’m very curious myself now!


Hey there lenarenee, was this post for me. If so I don't understand soap lingo, ain't no lye


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## DeeAnna (Apr 2, 2019)

Nate5700 said:


> Would that be 4% of the superfat number (i.e., going from 10% to 10.4%) or adding 4% to the total number (going from 10% to 14%)?



the latter


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## amd (Apr 2, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Hey there lenarenee, was this post for me. If so I don't understand soap lingo, ain't no lye


She's asking if you have the ingredient list from the soap that you are trying to duplicate.


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## Lin19687 (Apr 2, 2019)

@GlenS you will not be able to 'replicate' their soap.  besides that it is probably a detergent bar, it is also triple milled I think.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 2, 2019)

@lenarenee -- Found the ingredients list on the Australian version of the C&E website. http://www.crabtree-evelyn.com/au/en/hand-care/soaps/

Unless there's a _ton _of titanium dioxide in this soap, there's not much shea and not much goat milk in the recipe.


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## lenarenee (Apr 2, 2019)

Yes Glen, that was for you!  C & E was for Crabtree and Evelyn.

Goats milk bar is pretty basic - palm oil, palm kernel oil (instead of coconut oil which some people find to be slightly harsher than palm kernel oil - so that could be on thing that agrees with your skin more than other soaps)

Anyone know how to duplicate this soap considering it contains no soft oils?  I don't know how to make only palm, pko, and shea butter into a good bar.

And DeeAnna has a good point - very little shea or goat's milk because you can't use much titanium dioxide without ruining the texture of your bar. The ingredients are listed by largest amount to least amount, so we know there's less shea butter than there is titanium dioxide.

Seems that each different soap has a different recipe - which is fun.
Frankly, I'm more impressed with the Pomegranate bar - and no wonder it's priced higher with those oils!  However - all of the bars are overpriced!


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## GlenS (Apr 2, 2019)

amd said:


> She's asking if you have the ingredient list from the soap that you are trying to duplicate.


Hello amd,
Thank you for your kind assistance! No I do not......



Lin19687 said:


> @GlenS you will not be able to 'replicate' their soap.  besides that it is probably a detergent bar, it is also triple milled I think.


Yes you are probably right and yes it is definately triple-milled. I know what that means, it means I can't do it !!!
Thanks



DeeAnna said:


> @lenarenee -- Found the ingredients list on the Australian version of the C&E website. http://www.crabtree-evelyn.com/au/en/hand-care/soaps/
> 
> Unless there's a _ton _of titanium dioxide in this soap, there's not much shea and not much goat milk in the recipe.
> 
> View attachment 38066


Hello DeeAnna,
  Wow I sure wouldn't have thought of that. Very cool, thank you and cheers



lenarenee said:


> Yes Glen, that was for you!  C & E was for Crabtree and Evelyn.
> 
> Goats milk bar is pretty basic - palm oil, palm kernel oil (instead of coconut oil which some people find to be slightly harsher than palm kernel oil - so that could be on thing that agrees with your skin more than other soaps)
> 
> ...



Well lenarenee, 
C&E, I thought you were doing soap speak... But I sure didn't know about the palm oil. Also have no idea what titanium dioxide is so it looks like I am going to miss the mark by a far amount. Dang it. $8 for a 3.5 ish oz of soap is too much for my blood. I will have to see how my goatmilk turned out......
Maybe you could comment on the method I used. The soap came out darker than the lard soap. The evaporated goat milk was refrigerated and the lye/water solution was cooled in an ice bath before mixing. Hoping not to burn the milk (as if I fully understood the term)! Would that account for the color?
Anyways thanks


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## Nate5700 (Apr 2, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Howdy,
> The goatmilk soap solidified enough to cut it today. We may have a concurrent imagination on this issue {)! How much like goatmilk does your soap smell? I don't know about how mine will be in a week, but time will tell. The process and the heat and the stages have me nervous. I think I will follow a recipe and cross my fingers!
> Thanks



I don't get an appreciable smell in an unscented batch from the goat milk. But I'm using powdered, one ounce of powder in a roughly two pound batch. I don't know how fresh would do as far as smell goes. I've done just one unscented batch, the others I've done all have fragrance or essential oils which definitely cover up any smell from the milk.

I'm going more for the skin feel with the goat milk than the smell, and I think I'm getting that. Good luck with yours, probably good to follow an established recipe if you're doing hot process for the first time. I'm going to try to do a hot process batch (likely tomorrow) but that will be a shaving soap with KOH lye. I'm interested to see if goat milk will do well in a shaving soap.


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## GlenS (Apr 2, 2019)

Nate5700 said:


> I don't get an appreciable smell in an unscented batch from the goat milk. But I'm using powdered, one ounce of powder in a roughly two pound batch. I don't know how fresh would do as far as smell goes. I've done just one unscented batch, the others I've done all have fragrance or essential oils which definitely cover up any smell from the milk.
> 
> I'm going more for the skin feel with the goat milk than the smell, and I think I'm getting that. Good luck with yours, probably good to follow an established recipe if you're doing hot process for the first time. I'm going to try to do a hot process batch (likely tomorrow) but that will be a shaving soap with KOH lye. I'm interested to see if goat milk will do well in a shaving soap.



Well the evaporated milk does give some smell, hut not near enough. Will definitely look for a tried and true recipe. I haven't tried the bastille goatmilk yet so I don't know if I accomplished the goal as to feel. I am guessing that the coconut oil gave the lather and smoothness to the lard soap, I could be wrong. Good luck as well with your trial. Going to have to google KOH lye also!!
Now that you mention it I wouldn't mind having a soap that smells like gillete shaving cream. Hmmmm


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## Nate5700 (Apr 2, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Well the evaporated milk does give some smell, hut not near enough. Will definitely look for a tried and true recipe. I haven't tried the bastille goatmilk yet so I don't know if I accomplished the goal as to feel. I am guessing that the coconut oil gave the lather and smoothness to the lard soap, I could be wrong. Good luck as well with your trial. Going to have to google KOH lye also!!
> Now that you mention it I wouldn't mind having a soap that smells like gillete shaving cream. Hmmmm



Well do report on how the Bastille soap turns out, maybe it will have a mild enough scent to let the goat milk come out. The coconut oil will definitely bring the lather, I don't think it's generally considered smooth though. Lard I think brings a sort of balance to a soap. What else is in there?

KOH generally is used more for soft and liquid soaps, so don't try it in your bar soap. The shave soap I'm wanting to do is the kind that you dollop into a mug and lather up with a brush, so it's more of a cream consistency. I'm going with almond fragrance in that because almond is awesome in general and I once had a very good shaving soap that was almond scented, so now to me that's what shaving soap is "supposed" to smell like.

I thought it might be cool to have a soap that smells like Skin Bracer aftershave but I don't know how I'd go about it, aside from just pouring the aftershave into the soap. That's probably a very very bad idea...


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## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

GlenS said:


> C&E, I thought you were doing soap speak... But I sure didn't know about the palm oil. Also have no idea what titanium dioxide is so it looks like I am going to miss the mark by a far amount. Dang it. $8 for a 3.5 ish oz of soap is too much for my blood. I will have to see how my goatmilk turned out......
> Maybe you could comment on the method I used. The soap came out darker than the lard soap. The evaporated goat milk was refrigerated and the lye/water solution was cooled in an ice bath before mixing. Hoping not to burn the milk (as if I fully understood the term)! Would that account for the color?
> Anyways thanks



Titanium dioxide is used as a colorant (for White color of soap) but not a lot of it can be used, as was mentioned.  (It is also used in some many food products, so you would see it on a lot of ingredient labels.)

Lard reportedly produces a very nice lather, so it wouldn't only be from the goats milk.

As someone who was once so new at this that I also went through the stage you are at now with making goatsmilk soap and not being sure what was going on and the smells and so on and so forth, I'd just like to encourage you to keep on trying.  Mixing any milk product with lye is a challenge when you are new.  There are so many methods available to us, but the one we seem to read about first seems to be the one that suggests you have to freeze the milk, use a cold water bath, with ice and keep the milk & lye solution as cold as possible, while adding the lye powder/crystals very very slowly and constantly stirring.  It's very intimidating for a newbie, to say the least.  And, yes, the smell and fumes can be off-putting. 

Rest assured, if all goes well (and it doesn't always, BTW), the resulting soap will eventually be very nice soap, despite the initial smell and unexpected color.  I have made a few goatmilk soaps (it's not my go-to soap, so I've really only made a few), but for the most part they have all been nice.  I did have one fail, but that is another story.

The smell was gone after a decent cure.  Fragrance can help, but time helps as well, when it comes to odor.

However, not everyone's nose is the same either, some of us can smell lard in soap no matter how long the soap cures.  Some can smell olive oil in soap no matter how long the soap cures.  Some never notice either.  The sense of smell is also a personal thing, just like what our skin likes when it comes to a soap formula.  So you may want to pay attention to the smells that linger for you and ask for feedback from others (family, close friends) about what they notice, but try not to use the power of suggestion, to see if others smell the same things.

The color of any goatmilk soap can be a sort of a beige-tan color if the milk got a bit on the warm side.  With TD (titanium dioxide), it can be white, but most folks get a pure white GM soap (goats milk = GM) by freezing or refrigerating the soap as soon as it is in the mold for several days to prevent the soap from overheating.  This also prevents the soap from gelling, which is what happens as the soap heats up via the natural chemical processes of mixing lye with fats.  Gelling is not necessary, as both ways are fine for making good soap.  Some prefer gelled soap and some prefer non-gelled soap.  That is another topic altogether.  Some GM soapmakers do gell all their soap, so that's not even cut-in-stone, either.



GlenS said:


> Well the evaporated milk does give some smell, hut not near enough. Will definitely look for a tried and true recipe. I haven't tried the bastille goatmilk yet so I don't know if I accomplished the goal as to feel. I am guessing that the coconut oil gave the lather and smoothness to the lard soap, I could be wrong. Good luck as well with your trial. Going to have to google KOH lye also!!
> Now that you mention it I wouldn't mind having a soap that smells like gillete shaving cream. Hmmmm




Lard reportedly produces a very nice smooth lather, while coconut oil produces more bubbles.  However, mixing oils can produce a more or less 'balanced' bar, depending on the proportions used.  That takes a lot of practice and can depend somewhat on the what each person's individual skin feel.  We don't all like the same feel.

Welcome to the journey!  I am sure you will be fascinated by it for quite some time.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 3, 2019)

_"...KOH generally is used more for soft and liquid soaps, so don't try it in your bar soap...."_

Annnd here's another hard rule that's about to be bent if not broken....

While it's true KOH is normally used to make cream, shave, and liquid soaps, it most definitely _can _be used in bar soap as well. Just use less of it -- I'd say 10% KOH is about the max for a bar soap to prevent softness.

I use 5% KOH in soaps high in oleic acid (olive oil soap for example) or high in palmitic and stearic acids (high lard soap for example). It helps make more lather more easily without using more of the fats high in myristic and lauric acids (coconut oil for example).


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## GlenS (Apr 3, 2019)

Nate5700 said:


> Well do report on how the Bastille soap turns out, maybe it will have a mild enough scent to let the goat milk come out. The coconut oil will definitely bring the lather, I don't think it's generally considered smooth though. Lard I think brings a sort of balance to a soap. What else is in there?
> 
> KOH generally is used more for soft and liquid soaps, so don't try it in your bar soap. The shave soap I'm wanting to do is the kind that you dollop into a mug and lather up with a brush, so it's more of a cream consistency. I'm going with almond fragrance in that because almond is awesome in general and I once had a very good shaving soap that was almond scented, so now to me that's what shaving soap is "supposed" to smell like.
> 
> I thought it might be cool to have a soap that smells like Skin Bracer aftershave but I don't know how I'd go about it, aside from just pouring the aftershave into the soap. That's probably a very very bad idea...


Cut the bastille soap last night and it was soft. Easily imprints with slight finger pressure. Today it is externally firmer but the insides are still soft. Both the lard and the bastille seem to be losing their scent. I guess that could be a good thing. Just lye, water, evaporated goat milk, coconut oil and olive oil.
My browser won't let me on soapmaking101, so that is currently unavailable. I need to gain confidence and familiarity with the hot process.... process.


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## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

Well that's a bummer, GlenS.  Which browser is that doesn't like soapmaking101?  Does it dislike youtube, or just soapmaking101?

Have you tried another browser?  I always have at least 2 or three browsers on each device, because there always seems to be something that doesn't work as well with certain browsers.  What a pain, huh?  But I've learned to get around it by just always having at least one or two others at my fingertips for just such situations.

Regarding the soap taking longer to harden up.  That's pretty normal.  Just give it more time to the open air.   Soaps made with more soft oils take a little longer to harden, but they will get there.


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## GlenS (Apr 3, 2019)

earlene said:


> Titanium dioxide is used as a colorant (for White color of soap) but not a lot of it can be used, as was mentioned.  (It is also used in some many food products, so you would see it on a lot of ingredient labels.)
> 
> Lard reportedly produces a very nice lather, so it wouldn't only be from the goats milk.
> 
> ...


Hello earlene,
  Thanks for the words of encouragement. Coming from someone that has experienced it makes it seem less daunting. The goatmilk soap I concocted was an olive oil and coconut oil. It is over 48 hours and way too soft for use. The 1st batch was just lye and lard. I have noted that as you stated the smells are going away on both soap batches.
The lard soap does make a good lather and bubbles well. Seems to hold up and looks to be a long lasting bar so far.
I have been unable to find goat milk scent or buttermilk scent. Will spend some time on that when needed. Tan-beige is a fair description of the color of the goatmilk. Didn't do something correctly. Thanks for the explanation on the TD and it's use. Again maybe in the future I can experiment with it.
I hot processed the soap to speed up the drying and seem to have managed an opposite effect. Live and learn .
BTW soapmaking is much more involved than I initially expected for even the basic blends, at least IMHO.
Thank for your time!!!



earlene said:


> Well that's a bummer, GlenS.  Which browser is that doesn't like soapmaking101?  Does it dislike youtube, or just soapmaking101?
> 
> Have you tried another browser?  I always have at least 2 or three browsers on each device, because there always seems to be something that doesn't work as well with certain browsers.  What a pain, huh?  But I've learned to get around it by just always having at least one or two others at my fingertips for just such situations.
> 
> Regarding the soap taking longer to harden up.  That's pretty normal.  Just give it more time to the open air.   Soaps made with more soft oils take a little longer to harden, but they will get there.


Okay good to know about the oil type vs hardening. I figured out that it wasn't the browser but an add on that I use to keep me off of unsecured sites. Apparently Soapmaking101 appears to be an http: site, not an https:.


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## Nate5700 (Apr 3, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> While it's true KOH is normally used to make cream, shave, and liquid soaps, it most definitely _can _be used in bar soap as well. Just use less of it -- I'd say 10% KOH is about the max for a bar soap to prevent softness.



I hadn't thought about using it in lower quantities for bar soap. I suppose there's no reason you can't if it gives you characteristics you want in your soap. I've been trying to get more hardness in my bar soaps. For us noobs it's probably better to keep it simple to start with.



GlenS said:


> Cut the bastille soap last night and it was soft. Easily imprints with slight finger pressure. Today it is externally firmer but the insides are still soft. Both the lard and the bastille seem to be losing their scent. I guess that could be a good thing. Just lye, water, evaporated goat milk, coconut oil and olive oil.



My soaps have been pretty soft as well when cutting them after 24 hours. My almond FO soap was even softer, and I left it in the mold 36 hours. That was Saturday and it still has quite a bit of give to a fingerpress. So not just the base oils but the fragrances used can have quite an effect. From what I understand a soap high in olive oil like your bastille soap will take longer to harden. Put it on a dish rack so that it gets air on both sides.

Interesting that you made a soap with just lard. Probably OK for someone new to test the process, but you'll eventually want to diversify your oils to get a balanced soap. My base is lard, olive, coconut, and castor oils. They haven't had enough cure time to see how hard they're going to get (but I'm sure they'll eventually be fine). But I get good creamy lather with a decent amount of bubbles, and it's nice on the skin.


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## GlenS (Apr 3, 2019)

Nate5700 said:


> I hadn't thought about using it in lower quantities for bar soap. I suppose there's no reason you can't if it gives you characteristics you want in your soap. I've been trying to get more hardness in my bar soaps. For us noobs it's probably better to keep it simple to start with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is another term I have to become familiar with "balanced".  I am thinking of starting a thread on what oils add what characteristics to the soap. There is probably a resource for that. It seems that I've have been giving the wrong ingredients for my first batch of soap. It was lye and lard, but I did add coconut oil!! It was supposed to make it lather if I recall correctly. So far I like the lard/coconut oil soap. It lathers okay, feels good on my hands and leaves them clean feeling and with some moisture. The last trait I will have to really confirm with more use. As the smell goes away if it indeed does, I will like it more. Next stop, molds with out sharp corners. 
  They are currently airing in an upstairs bedroom. May be too cold for correct drying, Where I live you are generally sweating or in air conditioned space......


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## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Hello earlene,
> Thanks for the words of encouragement. Coming from someone that has experienced it makes it seem less daunting. The goatmilk soap I concocted was an olive oil and coconut oil. It is over 48 hours and way too soft for use. The 1st batch was just lye and lard. I have noted that as you stated the smells are going away on both soap batches.
> The lard soap does make a good lather and bubbles well. Seems to hold up and looks to be a long lasting bar so far.
> I have been unable to find goat milk scent or buttermilk scent. Will spend some time on that when needed. Tan-beige is a fair description of the color of the goatmilk. Didn't do something correctly. Thanks for the explanation on the TD and it's use. Again maybe in the future I can experiment with it.
> ...



48 hours is still VERY YOUNG, even though you will read lots of places that HP soap is ready to use right away, it's not done curing.  It's done saponifying, sure, but not curing.  Curing for at least 4 weeks will give you a much nicer bar of soap even with HP.  During cure, soap does more than dry out.  The molecules within the soap move around and continue to interact with each other to produce a milder and more chemically co-hesive bar.  These inter-reactions that take place over time tend to make soap improve with age.  DeeAnna explains it pretty nicely here.

In HP one usually uses the default setting for the liquid amount in lye calculators, because a lot of liquid evaporates in the HP process unless you manage to securely cover the pot to encourage the evaporate to fall back down into the batter.  That's a lot of work (covering securely & uncovering to stir & re-covering, etc.)   With CP, at least you can change the liquid amount and speed of hardening of the bar just as or even more easily.  Plus save on electricity and the risk of over-heating!  So for GM soap, I'd recommend at least trying one batch anyway, and see if reducing the liquid just a bit helps.  I'd recommend a 33% lye concentration.  Remember to count the evaporated GM as part of the liquid.  If you mix your dry lye with an equal amount of distilled water, that makes a 50% lye cocentration.  If you then add in the evaporated milk at the same weight as your dry lye, you end up with a total of 33% lye concentration.  BUT, don't do that yet! Hold out the evap. GM and add it to the oils FIRST, mix it in well (but don't create bubbles), then add the lye solution (50% that you pre-mixed).  Then you won't get the discoloration of lye heating up the milk as much as if you mix the milk directly into the lye.  

It should create a paler soap.  Soaping cool enough to keep your oils clear (not re-solidifying in the bowl) and mixing the milk into the oils first, then adding the lye solution slowly, and less overall liquid helps prevent overheating.   If you put it in the refrigerator (or a very cold basement or cement garage in the winter) it will retard gel and the soap would be quite pale in color, or so they say.  I don't refrigerate milk soaps to prevent gel, so I am only sharing other's experience.

Regarding curing soap in cold or other conditions - the soap will still cure.  What you really want to avoid is high humidity in the curing area.  In my experience, high humidity feeds thirsty soap and can produce puddles to salty soap.


----------



## lenarenee (Apr 3, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> You need to react lactic acid with NaOH to get sodium lactate. Milk has lactose, a sugar, that can be converted to lactic acid by fermentation -- in other words, you'd want to use yogurt, kefir, etc. to get lactate in your soap. Lactate from _fermented _dairy is going to be a small % of the whole, however -- you're better off just adding sodium lactate to get a decent % of it in your soap. Lactate from actual plain milk isn't going to happen.
> 
> Kevin Dunn did a study where he found the sugars in unfermented milk do react with lye, although they don't make lactate. The reaction raises the superfat of the soap more than you'd expect. Speaking from memory -- so don't hold me to this number -- I think Dunn found the superfat increase due to milk sugars is something around 4%, give or take.




Thank you for the correction! 



GlenS said:


> Hello amd,
> Thank you for your kind assistance! No I do not......
> 
> 
> ...




It sure does account for the color!  It's burned sugars from the milk. Kind of looks like caramel, doesn't it. 

You can consider using powdered milk. I don't use milk much - but when I do it's the powdered form. I add to the measured oils and stick blend well before adding lye water.

Yeah, Crabtree asks a lot for their soaps!!!  Too much!  But that's why they pay marketers the money - to wrap it up in a fancy package that attracts a certain type of people willing to pay that much.


----------



## Nate5700 (Apr 3, 2019)

GlenS said:


> That is another term I have to become familiar with "balanced". I am thinking of starting a thread on what oils add what characteristics to the soap. There is probably a resource for that.



SoapCalc is a good resource if you haven't seen it yet. Punch your recipe in there and it will give you values for hardness, how cleansing, conditioning, etc. your bar will be. So when I say "balanced" it's those types of qualities I'm talking about. You can use it to calculate how much lye you need and to develop your own recipes. Google it since I'm still at a point where if I post a link my post has to be moderated.


----------



## GlenS (Apr 3, 2019)

earlene said:


> 48 hours is still VERY YOUNG, even though you will read lots of places that HP soap is ready to use right away, it's not done curing.  It's done saponifying, sure, but not curing.  Curing for at least 4 weeks will give you a much nicer bar of soap even with HP.  During cure, soap does more than dry out.  The molecules within the soap move around and continue to interact with each other to produce a milder and more chemically co-hesive bar.  These inter-reactions that take place over time tend to make soap improve with age.  DeeAnna explains it pretty nicely here.
> 
> In HP one usually uses the default setting for the liquid amount in lye calculators, because a lot of liquid evaporates in the HP process unless you manage to securely cover the pot to encourage the evaporate to fall back down into the batter.  That's a lot of work (covering securely & uncovering to stir & re-covering, etc.)   With CP, at least you can change the liquid amount and speed of hardening of the bar just as or even more easily.  Plus save on electricity and the risk of over-heating!  So for GM soap, I'd recommend at least trying one batch anyway, and see if reducing the liquid just a bit helps.  I'd recommend a 33% lye concentration.  Remember to count the evaporated GM as part of the liquid.  If you mix your dry lye with an equal amount of distilled water, that makes a 50% lye cocentration.  If you then add in the evaporated milk at the same weight as your dry lye, you end up with a total of 33% lye concentration.  BUT, don't do that yet! Hold out the evap. GM and add it to the oils FIRST, mix it in well (but don't create bubbles), then add the lye solution (50% that you pre-mixed).  Then you won't get the discoloration of lye heating up the milk as much as if you mix the milk directly into the lye.
> 
> ...


Great info that I believe I am understanding. I did add the evaporated goatmilk in with the lye when both were cold, so that is one problem. I did compensate for the milk in the liquid calculation. I believe I am ready for a good batch of soap next. In your experience how much longer would CP add to the curing beyond 4 weeks over my HP? That was a major factor in the choice of HP. I assume the lard/coconut batch hardened sooner due to the use of lard. It seems acceptably hard now. Would you say that the incorrect processing of the goatmilk probably explains the color and the choice of the oils is the reason for the softness. How much would the cooking have contributed? Thought the HP seemed fairly straight forward as opposed to alchemy. I may be mentally saponifying but I am far from cured.
There is a photo of the soaps in the Too Cavalier !!! thread. Thanks for you time and explanation. Maybe I am asking the wrong questions. What would you suggest for a very mild soap for sensitive skin?



lenarenee said:


> It sure does account for the color!  It's burned sugars from the milk. Kind of looks like caramel, doesn't it.
> 
> You can consider using powdered milk. I don't use milk much - but when I do it's the powdered form. I add to the measured oils and stick blend well before adding lye water.
> 
> Yeah, Crabtree asks a lot for their soaps!!!  Too much!  But that's why they pay marketers the money - to wrap it up in a fancy package that attracts a certain type of people willing to pay that much.


Well now I know what I did wrong on the color and I will have to wait to see if the product is acceptable. Learning that my views of soapmaking from some youtube videos are possibly misguided!!
Do you have a recipe that you think would be good for sensitive skin? I don't care if it has milk, crisco, olive oil or what...........
Thanks



Nate5700 said:


> SoapCalc is a good resource if you haven't seen it yet. Punch your recipe in there and it will give you values for hardness, how cleansing, conditioning, etc. your bar will be. So when I say "balanced" it's those types of qualities I'm talking about. You can use it to calculate how much lye you need and to develop your own recipes. Google it since I'm still at a point where if I post a link my post has to be moderated.


Foiled again, my browser extensions won't let my go to soapcalc as it is not a secured site, according to the browser........... Used another on that let you pick oils and suggested the water and a range of lye amounts for a range of fat content. I chose the green area amount.


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## Nate5700 (Apr 3, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Foiled again, my browser extensions won't let my go to soapcalc as it is not a secured site, according to the browser........... Used another on that let you pick oils and suggested the water and a range of lye amounts for a range of fat content. I chose the green area amount.



That's interesting. Are you at work and behind a corporate firewall right now? I can access SoapCalc at work and our IT policies are actually pretty strict.

If you're at home you could look into changing your browser's security settings. But if you found a site that works, that's cool too.


----------



## Dawni (Apr 3, 2019)

Let me confuse you more GlenS lol

I do majority HP and I've never actually had to use more than the cover of my slow cooker, because you're right @earlene, using plastic wrap or a shower cap is just too much work.... I wonder if the humidity here helps with that?

Reserved water and/or yogurt after the cook is enough to get it smooth and fluid enough for what I aim to do so far. More liquid isn't always necessary I've come to find out since I started playing with less water amounts. All depends on the recipe.. 

Also, it could be just my recipes, but I've never had to wait that long for any of my HP soaps to harden somewhat. I cure for a minimum of 2mos... but I mold, unmold and cut all within a day, even the Castile I recently did. But then again that had salt..

Too many factors, eh? Lol

Anyway, here's info about oils that could help you. When I was starting, Google was the classmate I could copy from, but this forum was the classmate I checked Google's answers with lols there's a ton of info if you just search.

I used so many keywords: lard, tea, conditioning, harden soap, fluid HP, etc. and then added "site:soapmakingforum.com" after so for example - lard site:soapmakingforum.com - will give you previous discussions on lard, all with great advice.

Speaking of lard, I heard 100% lard is nice but doesn't lather well. I've not tried. I have tried 60% lard and 20% each olive n coconut, and my mother loves that soap. At the end of the day it'll be up to your skin to say what it likes. Experiment with small batches and you'll eventually find out what works for you


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## earlene (Apr 3, 2019)

Glen, I can't answer your questions as they pertain to lard, as although I have made some soap for my family with lard, I don't like it myself and most of my soaps are totally free of animal fats.  I do believe however, that depending on how much CO (coconut oil) you used, that probably contributed to how fast it got hard.   CO heats up soap, speeds up saponification a and produced hard soap.  But it also contributes to bubbles, so it helps soap get used up faster (some call it melting away faster - I call it making more bubbles and using up the soap faster, whatever.)  

I don't think your method of mixing the milk into the lye was incorrect.  Lot's of people do it that way.  It's one method, not an incorrect method.  Did it contribute to the color of your soap?  Sure, but then so did the HP method contribute to the color of your soap.  Sugars, in the presence of heat (GM contains sugars) get darker.  Even gelling will contribute to the color of soap, especially when there are sugars in the presence of heat.  So all these factors contribute to the color of soap.

It's not only the oils, but the combinations and amounts of the oils that contribute to a softer or harder bar and even how quickly or slowly a soap becomes hard after poured.  There are many factors, but it comes down to the fatty acid profile of the oils in question.  Learning a bit about the way the oils work together and how the different fatty acids in each oil affects the soap will help you figure out how to expect your soap to behave.


----------



## GlenS (Apr 3, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Let me confuse you more GlenS lol
> 
> I do majority HP and I've never actually had to use more than the cover of my slow cooker, because you're right @earlene, using plastic wrap or a shower cap is just too much work.... I wonder if the humidity here helps with that?
> 
> ...


Aargh. Well now that is out of my system. Yes there is now a flow of good information that requires processing. I am leaning toward panic and not waiting on the goatmilk bastille long enough for it to gel in my last batch of soap. So the lye should be neutral at the gel stage, yes? Would that have affected the harden time to remove from the mold? The long wait for good curing is a revelation that has sunk in. I cut a 3/8th inch piece off the soap to cure for another two days and it is still squishy. Impatience is not a soapers friend.
Does sodium lactate make a significant difference or the use of salt, I think I remember reading that. I was thinking of doing a small batch of olive oil and coconut oil HP just to
check out the process again. But even if done correctly it will be a month or so to come to fruition. So I am pondering and processing. BTW the lard/olive oil and coconut oil sounds intriguing.
Thanks!



earlene said:


> Glen, I can't answer your questions as they pertain to lard, as although I have made some soap for my family with lard, I don't like it myself and most of my soaps are totally free of animal fats.  I do believe however, that depending on how much CO (coconut oil) you used, that probably contributed to how fast it got hard.   CO heats up soap, speeds up saponification a and produced hard soap.  But it also contributes to bubbles, so it helps soap get used up faster (some call it melting away faster - I call it making more bubbles and using up the soap faster, whatever.)
> 
> I don't think your method of mixing the milk into the lye was incorrect.  Lot's of people do it that way.  It's one method, not an incorrect method.  Did it contribute to the color of your soap?  Sure, but then so did the HP method contribute to the color of your soap.  Sugars, in the presence of heat (GM contains sugars) get darker.  Even gelling will contribute to the color of soap, especially when there are sugars in the presence of heat.  So all these factors contribute to the color of soap.
> 
> It's not only the oils, but the combinations and amounts of the oils that contribute to a softer or harder bar and even how quickly or slowly a soap becomes hard after poured.  There are many factors, but it comes down to the fatty acid profile of the oils in question.  Learning a bit about the way the oils work together and how the different fatty acids in each oil affects the soap will help you figure out how to expect your soap to behave.


I believe I may have panicked on the hot process goatmilk and didn't let it gel correctly. Good to finally begin understanding the process. Couldn't have done it without your and the other members help. Not there yet!
Cheers


----------



## linne1gi (Apr 4, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> You can do any recipe HP or CP. The only difference is you will need more liquid for HP.  As for adding fragrance that is totally up to you.  That's a personal choice.  Do you like unscented soap then go for it.   If not add a fragrance or EO.   As for milk soaps being good for sensitive skin, personally it's more about recipe than the milk.   I make milk soaps, mostly Coconut.  Tried goat's and buttermilk, cream etc.... Some have more fats or sugars etc.   I use them mostly as label appeal as I'm one who doesn't think a whole lot survives the lye monster.  Some add a bit more creaminess to the lather in my opinion.


I agree with shunt2011. I also mainly use coconut milk, but I also sometimes use goats milk or buttermilk depending.


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## GlenS (Apr 4, 2019)

linne1gi said:


> I agree with shunt2011. I also mainly use coconut milk, but I also sometimes use goats milk or buttermilk depending.


Hello linne1gi,
     I had a preconceived notion, enhanced by reading and viewing generalized statements about qualities of different things. They were not all correct or not specific enough. I plan on doing better next time. Having sensitive skin and being advised that coconut oil may be drying at over a 10% I am considering that value for the next batch. It will be a lard/olive and coconut HP soap. No butter or goat milk. 
Reasoning
1. Experience with my 1st batch of soap (lard/coconut oil). I like the curing time!!!, the lather and the feel.
2. Olive oil to add more mildness
3. Coconut oil for suds.
May try some FO just to add to my repertoire. Another step in the process

Update-
About a week of curing time on my #2 Batch Olive Oil/Coconut oil HP, experiment. You can still, with medium thumb and finger pressure feel that the bars are deforming. Not as much as before but still soft in the middle. 
Is the batch still worth waiting for another week or more or might it be better to rebatch, and maybe add some sodium lactate?
BTW I have gotten to the SoapCalc site and it is great!
Cheers


----------



## Nate5700 (Apr 7, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Update-
> About a week of curing time on my #2 Batch Olive Oil/Coconut oil HP, experiment. You can still, with medium thumb and finger pressure feel that the bars are deforming. Not as much as before but still soft in the middle.
> Is the batch still worth waiting for another week or more or might it be better to rebatch, and maybe add some sodium lactate?
> BTW I have gotten to the SoapCalc site and it is great!
> Cheers



I'd definitely give at at least another week, if not 2-3. The cure takes time. Some people will cure for years, especially with a soft soap like a Castille. My almond scented batch was at a similar point after a week.

I don't know how sodium lactate affects soap. Is it supposed to make a harder bar? Maybe something to think about when you're making a new batch but I wouldn't rebatch to add a hardener, especially after only a week.


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## GlenS (Apr 7, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Let me confuse you more GlenS lol
> 
> I do majority HP and I've never actually had to use more than the cover of my slow cooker, because you're right @earlene, using plastic wrap or a shower cap is just too much work.... I wonder if the humidity here helps with that?
> 
> ...


Yes info overload, but I am starting to catch on. I used your Mother's favorite to make a small batch sample using SoapCalc (Yes I got it working along with a rudimentary understanding ) for resizing. Possibly due to the small amount the process went through the foaming gel stage (Hurray) but then sort of didn't get to the next stage prior to mashed potatoes. Not having the experience to add appropriate liquids, I just stirred it and let it cook more. Total time for a 250g batch was about an hour on low. It set up in several hours and I took it out and cut it after 7 hours. This morning the external surface is well hard. Very white in color and seems to have started well. Thanks for the suggestion and mental fatigue .



Nate5700 said:


> I'd definitely give at at least another week, if not 2-3. The cure takes time. Some people will cure for years, especially with a soft soap like a Castille. My almond scented batch was at a similar point after a week.
> 
> I don't know how sodium lactate affects soap. Is it supposed to make a harder bar? Maybe something to think about when you're making a new batch but I wouldn't rebatch to add a hardener, especially after only a week.


Thanks for the advice and will do! The members have mentioned adding salt as a hardener, investigate for a future batches.


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## Dawni (Apr 7, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Update-
> About a week of curing time on my #2 Batch Olive Oil/Coconut oil HP, experiment. You can still, with medium thumb and finger pressure feel that the bars are deforming. Not as much as before but still soft in the middle.
> Is the batch still worth waiting for another week or more or might it be better to rebatch, and maybe add some sodium lactate?
> BTW I have gotten to the SoapCalc site and it is great!
> Cheers


Consider rebatching a last resort. I've had soap that wasn't too hard even after my usual two month cure. It was a small batch so not much wasted. Soap was great though so we used it up anyway and then I worked on tweaking the recipe to make a harder bar next time.

If you used too much water in a soap that has a big amount of olive oil (or any soft oil for that matter) chances are it'll take longer for it to harden, and in HP there's a chance it won't become really hard anyways. Since I've been experimenting with water amounts, some of my curing soap will remain soft I'm afraid but most will be fine.

I don't find the need to use sodium lactate anymore since I discovered salt and have been playing around with amounts to see if I can get hardness with only that and no sodium lactate. Remember though that too much cuts lather so you'll have to compensate. 


GlenS said:


> Yes info overload, but I am starting to catch on. I used your Mother's favorite to make a small batch sample using SoapCalc (Yes I got it working along with a rudimentary understanding ) for resizing. Possibly due to the small amount the process went through the foaming gel stage (Hurray) but then sort of didn't get to the next stage prior to mashed potatoes. Not having the experience to add appropriate liquids, I just stirred it and let it cook more. Total time for a 250g batch was about an hour on low. It set up in several hours and I took it out and cut it after 7 hours. This morning the external surface is well hard. Very white in color and seems to have started well. Thanks for the suggestion and mental fatigue .


Lol you're welcome? 

Pictures!! Hehehe 

Glad to know it went well for you. I rarely get all the stages of HP and I've done some that seemed to skip from trace to gel lol. What you're looking for is when it gets translucent, which means it's gelling. If most of my soap has gelled I turn the cooker of, stir to help the rest along, and continue with additives, etc.

I look forward to your updates on how this soap worked for you. You can test it soon as it's hard but give it at least 4-6wks of curing and it'll be even better.


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## GlenS (Apr 7, 2019)

Well it doesn't look so good, to look at! As I was going for the process and results. Hardened well, smells good with 3 drops of honeysuckle FO. Don't know how long the scent will last, mad scientist mode. still got me. I will give it another day for testing and shelve the rest.
Do you have s salt ratio basic starting point as I was considering a Castile soap sample next?
Thanks


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## Dawni (Apr 7, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Well it doesn't look so good, to look at! As I was going for the process and results. Hardened well, smells good with 3 drops of honeysuckle FO. Don't know how long the scent will last, mad scientist mode. still got me. I will give it another day for testing and shelve the rest.
> Do you have s salt ratio basic starting point as I was considering a Castile soap sample next?
> Thanks


We like soap pictures whether it looks good or bad lol

Here's a recent thread with some info on salt.


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## GlenS (Apr 7, 2019)

A wealth of help, thanks. BTW what is specifically "PPO" for the soap impaired?


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## earlene (Apr 7, 2019)

PPO = Per Pound of Oil

This may help with some of the acronyms:  https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/the-acronym-and-abbreviation-definition-thread.51841/


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## GlenS (Apr 7, 2019)

Thank you, bookmarked and favorited!

Hello,
   Well so far batch #1 HP Lard/Coconut Oil is hard and I like it. Doesn't like sitting in water! Batch #2 HP Olive/Coconut Oil is still soft in the middle (approx. 10 days). Batch #3 HP Lard/Coconut/Olive Oil seems completely hard with a tiny smell from several drops of Honeysuckle FO. Feels good, doesn't lather as much as #1. Remembering the butchery of recipes and poor procedure may be responsible for any inconsistencies.
As an aside, I can confirm dripping FO on plastic tops of digital scales is ill advisable!! 
Here is a view of Batch #3


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## Nate5700 (Apr 11, 2019)

Looks like soap! I wouldn't worry too much about the inconsistencies as you should expect different properties from the three different oil mixes, and it sounds like your results are what you'd expect.


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## Dawni (Apr 11, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Batch #3 HP Lard/Coconut/Olive Oil seems completely hard with a tiny smell from several drops of Honeysuckle FO. Feels good, doesn't lather as much as #1. Remembering the butchery of recipes and poor procedure may be responsible for any inconsistencies.
> Here is a view of Batch #3
> View attachment 38282


Looks good! How'd the amounts feel though, not drying? Give it a few more weeks to cure, the lather will improve and it'll be even harder after 

Or add 5% castor oil in your next trial if the lather still isn't enough for you


----------



## GlenS (Apr 11, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Looks good! How'd the amounts feel though, not drying? Give it a few more weeks to cure, the lather will improve and it'll be even harder after
> 
> Or add 5% castor oil in your next trial if the lather still isn't enough for you


You are kind . No it doesn't seem drying. I still haven't been able to get SoapCalc up on my computer attached to the printer so I haven't been able to keep copies with the different values of the properties shown there...Have been considering the use of Castor Oil, so thanks for the support of that idea.
Batch #4 is coming soon . . . . .


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## Dawni (Apr 11, 2019)

GlenS said:


> I still haven't been able to get SoapCalc up on my computer attached to the printer so I haven't been able to keep copies with the different values of the properties shown there...


Take screenshots until you get your printer hooked up  

I use a mobile and that's what I do til I get time to copy my recipe to a notebook.


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## GlenS (Apr 11, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Take screenshots until you get your printer hooked up
> 
> I use a mobile and that's what I do til I get time to copy my recipe to a notebook.



Neat idea, will try it also!



Nate5700 said:


> Looks like soap! I wouldn't worry too much about the inconsistencies as you should expect different properties from the three different oil mixes, and it sounds like your results are what you'd expect.


Good to get independent verification. Thank!


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## GlenS (Apr 25, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> @GlenS you will not be able to 'replicate' their soap.  besides that it is probably a detergent bar, it is also triple milled I think.


Hello,
    Late response but your question has been on my mind, could you describe what you mean when you say "detergent bar"
Thanks and Cheers


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## Dawni (Apr 26, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Hello,
> Late response but your question has been on my mind, could you describe what you mean when you say "detergent bar"
> Thanks and Cheers


Soap is soap when it's made with lye and fats. 

If you see ingredients that take longer to read out lol, like sodium cocoyl isethionate or some such, then it's most likely a synthetic "detergent bar" or syndet for short, or a hybrid.


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## Lin19687 (Apr 26, 2019)

TY @Dawni


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## Dawni (Apr 26, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> TY @Dawni


You're welcome.. Hope you didn't mind >_<


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## Susie (Apr 26, 2019)

GlenS said:


> You are kind . No it doesn't seem drying. I still haven't been able to get SoapCalc up on my computer attached to the printer so I haven't been able to keep copies with the different values of the properties shown there...Have been considering the use of Castor Oil, so thanks for the support of that idea.
> Batch #4 is coming soon . . . . .



How long are you curing these before judging them?

Never, ever put true soap on metal anything to rest.  Fast route to DOS.

If you need help with recipes until you get your computer/printer issue fixed, feel free to ask.  If I am off work, I'll be glad to make recommendations and run recipes through a calculator for you.  As will half the forum.


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## MGM (Apr 26, 2019)

@GlenS I know you're chasing this (potentially unattainable) fragrance and feel you had with C&E soap, but I bet that once you start making your own soap, you'll find all sorts of attributes that you didn't know were possible. So keep your mind open to various recipes and the wealth of information available on this site, and you may end up with something far suprior to your previous soap, at a fraction of the cost, and with the satisfaction of having made it yourself!


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## GlenS (Apr 26, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Soap is soap when it's made with lye and fats.
> 
> If you see ingredients that take longer to read out lol, like sodium cocoyl isethionate or some such, then it's most likely a synthetic "detergent bar" or syndet for short, or a hybrid.


Thank you for adding that terminology to my repertoire! Syndet, cool!
Cheers



Susie said:


> How long are you curing these before judging them?
> 
> Never, ever put true soap on metal anything to rest.  Fast route to DOS.
> 
> If you need help with recipes until you get your computer/printer issue fixed, feel free to ask.  If I am off work, I'll be glad to make recommendations and run recipes through a calculator for you.  As will half the forum.


Hello Susie,
      Thanks for your response and assistance. I didn't realize that the wire racks were so important. I saw a video where the bars are dried and cured on paper towels. Is it known what the connection is with the DOS and the racks?
   I have gotten on SoapCalc on a tablet and have become more understanding of what the various different values can cause. I've made batches and the quantities shown without realizing the quality values. The batch #4 CP Olive/Coconut oil with what I thought was an appropriate amount of salt (added at the wrong time) and with FO (First try) is my fault IMO for not heeding the quality numbers. At 15 days it is still soft (malleable). My #2 batch  HP Olive/Coconut Goatmilk made poorly with an approximation of a SoapCalc ratio is 24 days old and is still slightly malleable. I've used batch #2 on a thin piece that hardened enough early and it is very slippery. Concerned with slipping in the shower. But seems mild on my face and is a good alternative to shaving cream.
Going to let them sit and cure longer and see what happens.
  Currently I am chasing a scent. The scent of Crabtree and Evelyn Goatmilk triple milled soap. It was suggested that it was lavender, but doesn't match the scent of the lavender FO soap Batch #5. It also isn't Honeysuckle FO, Batch #4. Thinking about trying to mix and match!! Purchased some Sodium Lactate to experiment with the next batch. 
My batch #5 is a recipe I got from another Member for Olive/saltwater soap. It is coming up on it's two week cure time and will be tested next.
One last thing please, the soap mentioned with the probable DOS was my 1st batch. I used several pieces of the soap and liked it. It wasn't until the 4 pieces and about 3 weeks when I noticed the change in color and streaks of what looked like orange stripes on the surface of it, not on the interior. Is this consistent with DOS?
Thanks again



MGM said:


> @GlenS I know you're chasing this (potentially unattainable) fragrance and feel you had with C&E soap, but I bet that once you start making your own soap, you'll find all sorts of attributes that you didn't know were possible. So keep your mind open to various recipes and the wealth of information available on this site, and you may end up with something far suprior to your previous soap, at a fraction of the cost, and with the satisfaction of having made it yourself!


Thanks for the encouragement and hope . I wouldn't have believed the amount of information on soap and the importance of it before I started. After the correct fragrance I would like to try getting a good recipe for a Goatmilk and another for Buttermilk. I want to see what these ingredients bring to the mixture. Then some form of exfoliate, possibly like oatmeal. I need mild.
Investigating sodium lactate to compensate for my not liking HP so much (now) and for my lack of patience.
Cheers


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## Susie (Apr 26, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Hello Susie,
> Thanks for your response and assistance. I didn't realize that the wire racks were so important. I saw a video where the bars are dried and cured on paper towels. Is it known what the connection is with the DOS and the racks?
> 
> One last thing please, the soap mentioned with the probable DOS was my 1st batch. I used several pieces of the soap and liked it. It wasn't until the 4 pieces and about 3 weeks when I noticed the change in color and streaks of what looked like orange stripes on the surface of it, not on the interior. Is this consistent with DOS?



The alkali substance reacts with the metal of the rack which causes rapid rancidity of the oils/fatty acids remaining.  DOS is Dreaded Orange Spots (or in your case, Stripes).



GlenS said:


> I have gotten on SoapCalc on a tablet and have become more understanding of what the various different values can cause. I've made batches and the quantities shown without realizing the quality values. The batch #4 CP Olive/Coconut oil with what I thought was an appropriate amount of salt (added at the wrong time) and with FO (First try) is my fault IMO for not heeding the quality numbers. At 15 days it is still soft (malleable). My #2 batch  HP Olive/Coconut Goatmilk made poorly with an approximation of a SoapCalc ratio is 24 days old and is still slightly malleable. I've used batch #2 on a thin piece that hardened enough early and it is very slippery. Concerned with slipping in the shower. But seems mild on my face and is a good alternative to shaving cream.
> Going to let them sit and cure longer and see what happens.



You are not curing your soaps anywhere long enough to make any judgments on any of them.  Learn to be patient.  You can test a single tester from your first batch once a week and learn that you need to learn to wait.  4-6 weeks minimum.  Yes, that is minimum.  Until then you are wasting your time.  I used to cure 6-8 weeks, but now that I live in a drier climate, I can cure less time.  I do not even touch them before then other than to turn the bars at 1 week to let the other end dry.

Also, don't get so fixated on perfect "numbers" we've all been there, so you are following a well traveled trail, but shortly you will learn what this oil and that bring to the soaping party, and you will figure it out from there.  Do stay within the "usual" oils for soap as your next step will probably be the infamous 9 oil soap as you chase those perfect numbers.  Again, we've all been there, and most of us operate in the 5 oil or less range.  And they are usually all on a list of 10 oils. 



GlenS said:


> Currently I am chasing a scent. The scent of Crabtree and Evelyn Goatmilk triple milled soap. It was suggested that it was lavender, but doesn't match the scent of the lavender FO soap Batch #5. It also isn't Honeysuckle FO, Batch #4. Thinking about trying to mix and match!! Purchased some Sodium Lactate to experiment with the next batch.



Please wait to learn what your bars are going to give you in the proper amount of time before trying to add another ingredient.  I know you are trying to fix a perceived problem, but two things you need to learn first is:
1.  What oils will bring natural hardness to your soaps (I never use SL, don't need it.)
2.  What the tincture of time will bring to your soap.

Most people who are hunting a lavender end up with a 40/42 if I recall correctly.  I am not a fan of lavender, so I am not much help.


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## GlenS (Apr 26, 2019)

Susie said:


> The alkali substance reacts with the metal of the rack which causes rapid rancidity of the oils/fatty acids remaining. DOS is Dreaded Orange Spots (or in your case, Stripes).


Thanks for the explanation!



Susie said:


> You are not curing your soaps anywhere long enough to make any judgments on any of them. Learn to be patient. You can test a single tester from your first batch once a week and learn that you need to learn to wait. 4-6 weeks minimum. Yes, that is minimum. Until then you are wasting your time. I used to cure 6-8 weeks, but now that I live in a drier climate, I can cure less time. I do not even touch them before then other than to turn the bars at 1 week to let the other end dry.
> 
> Also, don't get so fixated on perfect "numbers" we've all been there, so you are following a well traveled trail, but shortly you will learn what this oil and that bring to the soaping party, and you will figure it out from there. Do stay within the "usual" oils for soap as your next step will probably be the infamous 9 oil soap as you chase those perfect numbers. Again, we've all been there, and most of us operate in the 5 oil or less range. And they are usually all on a list of 10 oils.


Understood on the waiting period. I will let them cook. The Saltwater/Olive Oil soap hardened much faster than the HP soaps. I am not thoroughly following the part about the oils. Would you please elaborate and or dumb down? Thanks



Susie said:


> Please wait to learn what your bars are going to give you in the proper amount of time before trying to add another ingredient. I know you are trying to fix a perceived problem, but two things you need to learn first is:
> 1. What oils will bring natural hardness to your soaps (I never use SL, don't need it.)
> 2. What the tincture of time will bring to your soap.
> 
> Most people who are hunting a lavender end up with a 40/42 if I recall correctly. I am not a fan of lavender, so I am not much help



The soaps I've produced seem fine to me except the really slippery one. I am not too concerned about bubbles, but some longevity and the mildness, plus cleaning seem the fairly important. As you say the time will tell. Also thanks for the hint on the lavender.


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## Deborah Long (Apr 27, 2019)

@GlenS - The longer you wait for the cure to happen, the longer your soap will last also (since that's one of the qualities that you are looking for).  For instance, the Olive/saltwater bar will do best with a cure of 6 weeks to 6 months!  I love that soap, but found that the longer I wait to use it, the more I love it!


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## atiz (Apr 27, 2019)

GlenS said:


> Thanks for the explanation!
> 
> 
> Understood on the waiting period. I will let them cook. The Saltwater/Olive Oil soap hardened much faster than the HP soaps. I am not thoroughly following the part about the oils. Would you please elaborate and or dumb down? Thanks



Not Susie, but I think she meant that just looking at the numbers and trying to come up with the perfect combination by starting to include all kinds of oils will not give you the best result. (Yes, we have all done that.) Soap made with a few oils can be just as nice as ones made with many. Even if the numbers are not "perfect". You have to figure out what is the feel you really like, and which oils give you that. Numbers will not tell you that part necessarily (although they can be useful as guidelines).
And yes, waiting 6-8 weeks can make a big difference in how a soap feels / behaves. Once you have made enough batches, it will be easier to wait since meanwhile you can use some of the old ones that you are trying out anew


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## GlenS (Apr 27, 2019)

Deborah Long said:


> @GlenS - The longer you wait for the cure to happen, the longer your soap will last also (since that's one of the qualities that you are looking for).  For instance, the Olive/saltwater bar will do best with a cure of 6 weeks to 6 months!  I love that soap, but found that the longer I wait to use it, the more I love it!


Thanks Deborah for the educated info on the soap. I am getting better as I haven't made soap in almost 10 days . I am looking forward to actually trying them in the future and verifying the consensus of wisdom. Signed Impatient......


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## GlenS (Apr 27, 2019)

atiz said:


> Not Susie, but I think she meant that just looking at the numbers and trying to come up with the perfect combination by starting to include all kinds of oils will not give you the best result. (Yes, we have all done that.) Soap made with a few oils can be just as nice as ones made with many. Even if the numbers are not "perfect". You have to figure out what is the feel you really like, and which oils give you that. Numbers will not tell you that part necessarily (although they can be useful as guidelines).
> And yes, waiting 6-8 weeks can make a big difference in how a soap feels / behaves. Once you have made enough batches, it will be easier to wait since meanwhile you can use some of the old ones that you are trying out anew


Hey atiz, 
   I only have the lard, olive and coconut oils as good enough. I added the Castor Oil for the specific recipe of Saltwater/Olive for supposed bubbles. So far I am not stuck on any particular oils, just readily available locally. Lazy and impatient. I was thinking of Palm and Palm Kernel because it is listed in the C&E Goatmilk soap. But I have enough ingredients to make several batches of the on hand oils.
Thanks for the explanation!
Cheers


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