# Some good FO news



## John Harris (Sep 18, 2021)

When I was last in *Soap Fever *2 years ago, I made up a mess of bars and they have been popular right up to this day.  I made a bunch from some old Missy's Candles FOs I had laying around - Sandalwood, Nag Champa, Frankincense, and Bay Laurel.  Two years ago when I used them, the oils were 16 years old , but they still worked perfectly.

My soap's recent popularity at work has wiped out my supply of bars in the four scents I just mentioned. It was hard to see the last ones go. And Missy's Candles is no more so those FOs are not going to be replaced.     But!  This evening, while digging around in my soap storage area, I ran across the bottles of those four FOs from 2 years ago and there was still some oil in each of them. Maybe not enough to make my usual 40 bars, but surely enough to make a half batch!  I am so happy to have made that discovery!

My *Christmas Forest* batch I made last night is still in the mold and is still quite warm and a little soft.  I can see I am going to have to break out another 40 bar mold!  When I get the fever, I get it bad.


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## Juggsy (Sep 29, 2021)

We all do. I know when I'm in obsession mode as my family calls it, it's all I do. 


Would the FO be okay after two years? I don't use many FOs but I assume they would their potency? Or even go rancid? I store my oils in a converted linen closet (temp controlled - I love my austisic son and his mates - so clever)  and still try not have more on hand than I will use with 6-8 months maximum. Yet I still go through 1 or 2 litre of essential oils in that time. I wish I was kidding. I just spent 495 dollars buying 15ml rose essential oil.   So I'd be terrified of my oils going bad.


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## John Harris (Sep 29, 2021)

I have no complaints about my old oils.  They seem to function as good as my newer ones in every way.  I find it very surprising too, but heck! I'm not going to complain!  
$495??  Can that be possible??


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## Juggsy (Sep 29, 2021)

John Harris said:


> I have no complaints about my old oils.  They seem to function as good as my newer ones in every way.  I find it very surprising too, but heck! I'm not going to complain!
> $495??  Can that be possible??


That's amazing then. I honestly assumed it was the same as EOs. 

Unfortunately. Yep, rose is one of the most expensive EOs. My Source for my rose oil. I wanted some from a better source but it is more expensive.


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## Bubble Agent (Sep 29, 2021)

John Harris said:


> I have no complaints about my old oils.  They seem to function as good as my newer ones in every way.  I find it very surprising too, but heck! I'm not going to complain!
> $495??  Can that be possible??



Indeedio! But the great thing about it is that you don`t have to use a lot, it is one of those potent _monsters _that require veeery small usage rates or it will overpower most everything out there.



Juggsy said:


> My Source for my rose oil. I wanted some from a better source but it is more expensive.



I am in Norway, and have to order my essential oils from England. I can get 10ml Rose Otto for $146 (AUD) (from HERE )

The company is approved by my safety _assessessor _assessor _(edit: happy now @ResolvableOwl _?) and they come with all documents. The 50ml cost $665 AUD. And they ship to Australia. I don`t know if shipping and import charges would make it worth your while, but their oils are good, not diluted and I have several of them in my assessment papers.


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## lenarenee (Sep 29, 2021)

I thought there was no such thing as rose essential oil - that it was an absolute only?  Rose absolute was one of the first splurges in my early days of soaping, and I loved it -  but the price just kept skyrocketing!


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 29, 2021)

Bubble Agent said:


> assessessor


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## Bubble Agent (Sep 29, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> I thought there was no such thing as rose essential oil - that it was an absolute only?  Rose absolute was one of the first splurges in my early days of soaping, and I loved it -  but the price just kept skyrocketing!



There is such a thing as Rose essential oil. They come in different variations however, and the different variations has different price range.
You have the regular steam distilled (Rose Otto) that I linked to, it is most expensive (takes more petals to produce the oil compared to the absolute) . Then you have the variation of solvent extracted  - the Rose Absolute, which is the one you know. You also have another one but I have never seen that anywhere here, and that is Rose CO2 Extract.

And yes, the prices keeps going up. I would use Rose more if I could, particularly blended with lemon. Mmmm...

@John Harris Do you use the same soap recipe as before, in your earlier days or have you ventured out? Sorry if it has already been covered before.

And are you saving a bar or two for yourself made with the oils that you love but can`t get a hold of? I mean, you don`t really have to give away _every _crumb, you should keep some for yourself too! 

I am just saying, because you seem like one of those super generous people that tend to forget themselves to make others happy☺


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## John Harris (Sep 29, 2021)

Bubble Agent said:


> @John Harris Do you use the same soap recipe as before, in your earlier days or have you ventured out? Sorry if it has already been covered before.
> 
> And are you saving a bar or two for yourself made with the oils that you love but can`t get a hold of? I mean, you don`t really have to give away _every _crumb, you should keep some for yourself too!
> 
> I am just saying, because you seem like one of those super generous people that tend to forget themselves to make others happy☺


The recipe has been evolving.  Using a lot of lard now.  You're right though, I need to start keeping a few of the bars that I really like.  Although, if the supplier is still open, I could always make more.  And More!  AND MORE!


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## Bubble Agent (Sep 29, 2021)

John Harris said:


> The recipe has been evolving.  Using a lot of lard now.  You're right though, I need to start keeping a few of the bars that I really like.  Although, if the supplier is still open, I could always make more.  And More!  AND MORE!



Ah, a fellow larder! Nice! Lard in soap is just wonderful. I have tried every recipe under the sun and I keep coming back to lard. My safety assessed soaps have lard in them., so it is safe to say I love it. 
And yeees, you must keep some for yourself. 

Making *more *soap? Well, there are worse things that could happen. Like NOT making soap...


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## Juggsy (Sep 29, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> I thought there was no such thing as rose essential oil - that it was an absolute only?  Rose absolute was one of the first splurges in my early days of soaping, and I loved it -  but the price just kept skyrocketing!


There's actually quite a few different rose oils as @Bubble Agent said. 
Then there's a whole lot of different qualities. Because it used to be just Bulgaria that had the whole shebang prior to world war - after the 1930s France, Turkey 
and Croatia all got in on the action and then India. It's still Rosa Damascena but where it comes from affects quality. 




Bubble Agent said:


> There is such a thing as Rose essential oil. They come in different variations however, and the different variations has different price range.
> You have the regular steam distilled (Rose Otto) that I linked to, it is most expensive (takes more petals to produce the oil compared to the absolute) . Then you have the variation of solvent extracted  - the Rose Absolute, which is the one you know. You also have another one but I have never seen that anywhere here, and that is Rose CO2 Extract.
> 
> And yes, the prices keeps going up. I would use Rose more if I could, particularly blended with lemon. Mmmm...


 gotta say change your lemon to Neroli (orange blossom) another extremely expensive oil. It's better than lemon or even lemon mrytle and I would never gave tried it of it wasn't for my should be 15 year old. I had damask roses and we used to have an orange blossom tree at our old place. My daughter used to pick the roses and collect the neroli petals and then would crush them up and make potions by adding a little oil and letting them soak. I still remember when I first smelled her "petal potion" it was like my nose was orgasming 
I can only buy rose c02 extract from Native Extracts. 


Bubble Agent said:


> I am in Norway, and have to order my essential oils from England. I can get 10ml Rose Otto for $146 (AUD) (from HERE )


 I knew before I clicked it was going to be New Directions. I have purchased their Rose EO and it's not very good quality in my opinion. I don't know why it smells so different to the other brands I've used. 
This one from AWO comes with certification from the "valley of roses" as it's called in Bulgaria.

I can get steam distilled from SEOC 50ml for around 665 too. But it's Rosa × damascena India.


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## John Harris (Sep 29, 2021)

Bubble Agent said:


> Ah, a fellow larder! Nice! Lard in soap is just wonderful. I have tried every recipe under the sun and I keep coming back to lard. My safety assessed soaps have lard in them., so it is safe to say I love it.
> And yeees, you must keep some for yourself.
> 
> Making *more *soap? Well, there are worse things that could happen. Like NOT making soap...



Some more soap is going to be made tonight - 32 large bars of Frankincense & Myrrh from the sadly missed *Missy's Candles. * This FO turns the soap into a dark tan and if I remember right from 2.5 years ago, it accelerates trace quite a bit.  (Yes, I know I should have been taking notes.  I do now.)  I'd like to do an ITP swirl, but I don't know if that is wise on a dark, possibly fast-tracing soap.

Right now I am using lard at 17.7% The next highest oil concentration is coconut oil at 26.4%.  What % of lard do you usually use?


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## LynetteO (Sep 29, 2021)

@John Harris I know ya didn’t ask me but… During my soap  science  extravaganza  experiment I made 12 batches of soap all with various oils &/or % of oils. 11 of them contained no lard & 1 did @ 20%. I keep going back to that bar. There’s *SOMETHING* about it that is just _uniquely wonderful._ I wasn’t expecting that result to be quite honest. Made that batch purely on posts on SMF from the _Lard Lovers_. So glad I did!


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## John Harris (Sep 29, 2021)

And here is the slab:  
Used my old lye with crossed fingers.  Took a long time to trace - which was nice cuz we had time to do a ITP swirl without the wolf being at the door.  Made it to thick trace, however.  Did a ITP with natural soap as the base and dark gold and white as the accents.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Sep 30, 2021)

Very nice


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## Bubble Agent (Sep 30, 2021)

Juggsy said:


> ...
> *gotta say change your lemon to Neroli* (orange blossom) another extremely expensive oil.
> 
> _*I knew before I clicked it was going to be New Directions*._ I have purchased their Rose EO and it's not very good quality in my opinion. I don't know why it smells so different to the other brands I've used.
> ...



Yes, *Rose and Neroli is a glorious combination,* but it is very, very sweet and heady. 
I made that mix a few years back, and I get why you would love that one! But I still like my rose and lemon mix (10 fold lemon), it gives the rose a bit of edge and calms down the sweetness.  I won`t clog up @John Harris thread further than I already have, but I may post my rose mixes in the Aromatherapy section of the forum instead, and would love to hear if you have any other rosy type favourites!

Sorry to hear about your experience of the rose they have! Is it a long time ago?



John Harris said:


> Some more soap is going to be made tonight - 32 large bars of Frankincense & Myrrh from the sadly missed *Missy's Candles. * This FO turns the soap into a dark tan and if I remember right from 2.5 years ago, it accelerates trace quite a bit.  (Yes, I know I should have been taking notes.  I do now.)  I'd like to do an ITP swirl, but *I don't know if that is wise on a dark, possibly fast-tracing soap.*
> 
> Right now I am using lard at 17.7% The next highest oil concentration is coconut oil at 26.4%.  *What % of lard do you usually use?*


 
*I have used lard from 25% and up, but now I use 50-60%*. The rest is divided between coconut, olive and castor. Even a smaller amount of lard gives the soap a special feel to it, there is no doubt about that. So whenever lard comes into the picture, something happens. It just does. I assume that is why you add it too.

My testers have been family and friends from all genders and ages (from 12-85)  over the years. So when I realized that even though my vegan soaps of all types and ingredients have been very well received, which made me happy of course, my lard soaps got more remarks of _"this soap is sooooo good, what`s in it?"_ 
I was a bit afraid that they would smell anything piggy, but not even one has smelled it at 60%, even unfragranced lard soaps I made for friends with allergies that wanted to try my soap. And believe me, they all know it is pig fat, lol, I have been very open about that fact!
So - after accumulating years of hands on experience with #0348629087049603 recipes _with and without_ lard,  I just knew that lard was the way to go for me.

Sort of _*Go *__big__ *pig or go home*_, so to speak_._
(Or should I say _*oink*_ )

I see you managed to get the batter made without a problem, looking forward to the cut, I like the colors!


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## Bubble Agent (Oct 3, 2021)

Sooooo, have you cut it yet?


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## John Harris (Oct 3, 2021)

Well, actually, Bubble, I did!  It was an ITP.  The pot was colored with a small bit of TD.  The accents were Dark Gold mica and white (TD).  It's been 4 days since the pour.  Here are some pics:


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 3, 2021)

Huuuuge! The convincing simplicity of your design makes more intricate swirls look almost like occupational therapy . Every bar is unique!

Do you intend to plane and/or bevel? They have a very rustic look (shape-wise), and you might or might not like to keep it that way? Bevelling (if only on some edges, not all) can underline this deliberate half-raw look. You might plane the undersides to get rid of the ripples in the parchment paper.


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## John Harris (Oct 3, 2021)

You're reading my mind, Owl!  I think I am going to let them harden up a little more. (They're kinda soft yet.) Then I will make all those decisions.  Thanks for your compliments!


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## Bubble Agent (Oct 3, 2021)

Oh, these are fantastic Mr Harris, color me impressed!! And a big batch it was too. They look delishious, like good enough to eat, almost like chocolate fudge vanilla ripple...mmmm.  (_Sorry, I am a bit peckish right no_w)

I love the color scheme, and the white that breaks up the tan and brown. I wish I could smell them!


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## John Harris (Oct 3, 2021)

The scent is an FO - Frankincense and Myrrh. The soap mellows the smell wonderfully.  I think it will be a real winner.  The FO discolors to a medium tan and I was attempting to work with that. I just hope the swirls don't get swallowed up in the discolor.


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## Bubble Agent (Oct 4, 2021)

John Harris said:


> The scent is an FO - Frankincense and Myrrh. The soap mellows the smell wonderfully.  I think it will be a real winner.  The FO discolors to a medium tan and I was attempting to work with that. *I just hope the swirls don't get swallowed up in the discolor.*



That is the one thing about soapmaking that can be a bit boring, the fact that only time will tell 

But at least you will get to know how things will work out if/when you do it again, and you can increase the white a bit or not add any fragrance to the white to keep some contrasting swirls.


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## John Harris (Oct 4, 2021)

Bubble Agent said:


> That is the one thing about soapmaking that can be a bit boring, the fact that only time will tell
> 
> But at least you will get to know how things will work out if/when you do it again, and you can increase the white a bit or not add any fragrance to the white to keep some contrasting swirls.


Unfortunately, what I learned from using this FO is limited.  I've used up my stash of it and the supplier went out of business. But I can, as you say, use more white or not scent the accent color(s).
The FO was Frankincense and Myrrh from Missy's Candles.  Smells great! Too bad she went out of business.  I do have a FO bottle of Three Wiseman staring at me (from Candora - a Canadian supplier).  I have no idea how it will behave and I HATE to do experiments!  I should use that one pretty soon since Christmas is around the corner. It has a small amount of vanillin in it.


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## Bubble Agent (Oct 4, 2021)

John Harris said:


> Unfortunately, what I learned from using this FO is limited.  I've used up my stash of it and the supplier went out of business. But I can, as you say, use more white or not scent the accent color(s).
> The FO was Frankincense and Myrrh from Missy's Candles.  Smells great! Too bad she went out of business. * I do have a FO bottle of Three Wiseman staring at me (from Candora - a Canadian supplier).* * I have no idea how it will behave and I HATE to do experiments! * I should use that one pretty soon since Christmas is around the corner. It has a small amount of vanillin in it.


 
Ah, I see! Too bad, it is so typical when finding things we like and it just disappears!

I went to their site and downloaded the SDS. It contains 3% vanillin, so it will be somewhat darker. Just plan your colors accordingly.

Also, according to the SDS it contains a few things that _may _accelerate trace, (terpenes, cinnamal and one other thing I can`t remember right now, a long winded chemical name) 
But even so it may also perform just fine without issues! It depends on the composition of the fragrance elements. Just keep it in the back of your head and work effectively and I think you will be fine! 

Without knowing this fragrance I would perhaps get the batter to a stable emulsion, (not light or medium trace), then divide the batter, color it and add the fragrance in each segment after the color. If it misbehaves then you have at least bought yourself a littlebit of extra time, but you can also use it to your advantage (i.e make a layered soap instead of a swirled one).

*Now, I know you said you don`t like experiments, but this one will take just a minute to do! *_(No, seriously, I promise!)_

If you are going to make soap again one of these days, with a fragrance you already know and have worked with before, then you could make the batter to that regular soap as per usual, but before you add the fragrance you are going to use - just sacrifice a littlebit of the batter (enough for a bar, 100 grams) and put it in a plastic cup. Then just add some of the Three Wise Men fragrance (5%, depending on how strong you ususally make your soaps), stir and see how it behaves. No need to make a separate batter to find out! (I told you, easy peasy!)

Just let it set up in the plastic cup, it doesn`t have to look pretty, it is just to help you figure out the personality of the fragrance. That way you can at least get an idea if it is a fast tracer, curdles, seizer, or whatever, and if it will discolor a lot or less, depending on things. 
You will have time to do that test if you want to make soaps that are ready before christmas if you do it soon.

It may save you some grief  and hairpulling experiences if you try it, perhaps you find that want to keep the design simpler if it turns out to be difficult to work with. But then you would at least know.

_(Eeep, sorry for the ramble!)_


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## John Harris (Oct 4, 2021)

@Bubble Agent  Thanks so much for your extended response!  It is much appreciated!
Unfortunately, though I have tons of EOs and FO's, they are all strangers to me.  Despite years of circumscribed soapmaking, I just recently started taking notes.  (Yes, I know. I know!)  And it is a long time between repeat batches cuz I make 30 to 40 bars at a time. I will try that 100 gram suggestion though. That sounds doable - or easy-peasy.
And at the risk of being severely chastised, uhm .. what is the SDS?


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## Bubble Agent (Oct 4, 2021)

You are most welcome!

Taking notes is really good, so that will help you along the way. And the more you soap and read the more you will learn about the different fragrances and essential oils you have. Soon it will become second nature to you. As long as you keep within safe usage rates in fragrances/essential oils you`ll be fine. When in doubt just ask, and there will always be someone to guide you.

Also, researching essential oils and properties is also useful. Tisserand is one of the world leading in knowledge of essential oils, so when you come across advice and information by him you can be sure he know what he is talking about.

No chastising from me, lol, no worries!
*SDS *_(sometimes also referred to as MSDS)_ is an abbreviation for a type of document called a Safety Data Sheet (MSDS means Material Safety Data Sheet) 

It is a type of document that follows a chemical, (reputable sources will _always _provide a SDS for their customers, either with a download link (like Candora) or sent by email when requested.)

A SDS will list ingredients, allergens, cautions and other types of information that the buyer needs to know. For fragrance oils it also list allowed usage rates for different products (since fragrance/essential oils is not just added to soaps, but also to other things, like balms, creams, sprays, and many other things.)

When I got my soaps assessed for sale I had to provide the assessor the SDS for my fragrance oils, etc, so I could prove that the fragrance was according to the rules per EU regulations. There are certain ingredients that are banned, so the SDS will show if a banned ingredient is present in the oil. Banned in the EU does not mean banned in Canada for instance. But at least you will get valuable info from a SDS.


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