# Dual Lye Liquid Soap



## WhackySoaper (May 4, 2017)

Hi, my question is can I use 90% KOH And 10% NaOH and Oils to make liquid soap? Running the recipe through Summerbee's it says 12.15 oz. KOH and 1.35 NaOH but I won't be using alcohol, glycerin or Potassium Carbonate. My concern is will this cook to a paste and will I be able to dilute the paste to liquid and it stay liquid with the addition of the NaOH? Thanks


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## Nao (May 4, 2017)

You will be abel to cook and dilute it as usual, the problem is that after the dilution the NaOH soap might separate from the KOH soap, so you will end up with a lump of gel soap in your container of liquid soap.

 NaOH won't act as an thickener in liquid soap.


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## WhackySoaper (May 4, 2017)

Thanks Nao, do you know if there's anything I can add to keep the soap from separating?


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## Susie (May 4, 2017)

Your soap will not separate.  I have made batches from 5% NaOH/95% KOH to 55%NaOH/45% KOH.  Not a one ever separated.  

First of all, go use Soapee.com.  It is much easier than SBM, and you can save your recipes.

Next, what benefit do you hope to gain from making a hybrid soap?  As Nao states, NaOH will NOT thicken your soap.  There are thickening agents you can use to thicken soap, but NaOH is not one of them.


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## DeeAnna (May 4, 2017)

It seems like it should work. Yep. But it doesn't. If you would make several batches, all identical except for the proportion of NaOH and KOH, you'll find a point at which the soap with slightly less NaOH behaves more like a typical liquid soap. And soap with slightly more NaOH will behave more like a typical bar soap. 

We think soap should act like it has a dimmer switch -- we want the light to get gradually brighter and brighter as you slide the switch or rotate the dial. What really happens is soap acts more like it has got a plain old On-Off switch.


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## madison (May 4, 2017)

Susie said:


> Your soap will not separate. I have made batches from 5% NaOH/95% KOH to 55%NaOH/45% KOH. Not a one ever separated.
> 
> First of all, go use Soapee.com. It is much easier than SBM, and you can save your recipes.
> 
> Next, what benefit do you hope to gain from making a hybrid soap? As Nao states, NaOH will NOT thicken your soap. There are thickening agents you can use to thicken soap, but NaOH is not one of them.


 
I don't mean to hijack the thread, I would like to know what 5% of  NaOH adds to the liquid soap? I read somewhere else that you tried up to 40% NaOH? Thank you


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## DeeAnna (May 4, 2017)

IMO, 5% NaOH does not have any benefit for a liquid soap. Hopefully Susie will chime in on what she found with the other NaOH and KOH combos she tried.

In a bar soap, the reverse adds some nice benefits -- 5% KOH will increase the lather in a high oleic soap or in a high stearic-palmitic soap. It also reduces the slimy, stringy gel that high oleic soaps love to make.


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## Susie (May 4, 2017)

There was no appreciable difference in the soap made with any amount of NaOH.  It was a complete waste of time.  The only thing it did was prove unequivocably that the on/off switch description of DeeAnna's is absolutely correct.  Liquid soap is going to act the same until it becomes bar soap as you increase the NaOH.

As DeeAnna said, the use of KOH in NaOH soap makes the bar soaps awesome.  It is now my go-to lye mixture.


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## madison (May 5, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> IMO, 5% NaOH does not have any benefit for a liquid soap. Hopefully Susie will chime in on what she found with the other NaOH and KOH combos she tried.
> 
> In a bar soap, the reverse adds some nice benefits -- 5% KOH will increase the lather in a high oleic soap or in a high stearic-palmitic soap. It also reduces the slimy, stringy gel that high oleic soaps love to make.


 
I am following your instruction of adding 5% KOH to my bar soaps, I just started adding citric acid and you told me not to "dual lye" the citric acid.
Kudos to you DeeAnna for your great contribution in almost everything here.


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## madison (May 5, 2017)

Susie said:


> There was no appreciable difference in the soap made with any amount of NaOH. It was a complete waste of time. The only thing it did was prove unequivocably that the on/off switch description of DeeAnna's is absolutely correct.


 
Thank you susie for sharing your experience about this point.


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## Susie (May 5, 2017)

I am always happy to share my experiences.  I learned, and continue to learn, from others' experiences, so I figure I will pay it forward.


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## WhackySoaper (May 9, 2017)

Hi Susie, I was actually hoping for a thicker soap and saving on some of the use of KOH because I've been making mostly LS and having to buy it more than I like, I have a lot of NaOHI  I'm not using but wanted to do so if I could in the LS. I saw a video where someone used the dual method using a 45% of NaOH and claimed the LS was thicker. Thanks everyone for you input


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## DeeAnna (May 9, 2017)

There are claims that NaOH thickens the liquid soap, I agree that is true, but I don't see much if any concrete proof, especially from soapers I know have creditable soaping skills.

It's the same with "liquid soap" made by adding water to grated NaOH soap -- the pictures and the gushing reviews are about the mixture right after it's been made. No one tells you what this mixture is like a few weeks or months later.


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## Saranac (May 9, 2017)

WhackySoaper said:


> I was actually hoping for a thicker soap and saving on some of the use of KOH because I've been making mostly LS and having to buy it more than I like, I have a lot of NaOHI  I'm not using but wanted to do so if I could in the LS.



If I'm understanding your train of thought, you're thinking about adding NaOH to liquid soap for 2 reasons:

1.  to thicken the soap; and
2.  to use up some of your NaOH.

As to thickening the liquid soap, I tend to agree with the others that adding NaOH won't result in an appreciable difference in the thickness.  Personally, I think there are easier methods for building viscosity: keeping your dilution water at equal to or less than the paste amount (and having the patience to let it dissolve!), and adding table salt (you'll need to have a high amount of oleic fatty acid to make this work).

In regards to your desire to use up some of your NaOH, I say go for it.   Given that NaOH is (generally) cheaper, of higher purity than KOH, and any given amount will saponify more oils than the same amount of KOH, you might end up saving some money.  If you're not using the NaOH for bars soap, why not try a small amount in your liquid soap?  If I wasn't a "why use 2 when 1 will suffice" kind of guy, I might even give it a go.


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## WhackySoaper (May 16, 2017)

Thank you Saranac


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## WhackySoaper (May 16, 2017)

Hi Susie, I wanted to ask your opinion about the highest percentage of NaOH  I can use according to your testing of the dual lye? Also when doing it this way do I combine both lyes together and then to batch water or do I mix each of them separately in batch water and then add to oils? Thanks


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## Susie (May 16, 2017)

You can use up to 50% NaOH, however, it is an odd soap.  Not really functional.  Dilution is problematic, if I recall correctly.  I liked much lower-closer to 20% or lower. 

You can mix both lyes together, then add to the water.  Just understand that KOH mixed with NaOH gets as hot as KOH alone does.  It does the mini-boil thing, just like KOH alone does.

Oh, and let me add that if you want to make good thick liquid soap, you need to go read IrishLass' recipe.  Makes marvelous thick soap.  Post #8 of this thread:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114


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## WhackySoaper (May 22, 2017)

Hi Susie and Thanks for your reply. I made the soap yesterday using 55% KOH and 45% NaOH, the soap cooked about 7 hours to get translucent. I haven't diluted it yet but I did do a clear test. I used bubbly oils but the little bits on the spoon I tested didn't seem so bubbly what I'm used to, I'll start diluting tonight and let you know how it goes. Thanks for everyone's help.


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## WhackySoaper (May 24, 2017)

Ok, it's been 2 days since I started the dilution process and it's still not completely diluted. At first a 1:1 seemed like it was way to thin which is unusual for LS but this is a hybrid so I see in that respect it's different. I checked it last night and it was still watery way to thin for my liking but tonight I just checked and it's very thick, the thickest LS I've ever seen so much so I'll probably add more water. I just hope it doesn't continue to thicken and turn to that nasty slime soap you get when you dilute bar soap. Oh and it's very bubbly.


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## BattleGnome (May 24, 2017)

Thank you for updating. I was just wondering if using NaOH would help thicken LS to commercial body wash consistency without added thickeners. Keep us updated.


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## WhackySoaper (May 28, 2017)

BattleGnome I did have to add more water to thin out the soap and now waiting to see if it will thicken back up to the viscosity I want. What I'm experiencing is what Susie said, dilution is problematic and I'm sure in my case it's because of the high % of NaOH I used. This is the 6th day and still trying to get the soap functional.


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## DeeAnna (May 28, 2017)

BattleGnome said:


> ...I was just wondering if using NaOH would help thicken LS to commercial body wash consistency without added thickeners....



Did you read the first part of this thread? That's what we talked about! 

Also see http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59747 starting about Post 32.


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## BattleGnome (May 28, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> Did you read the first part of this thread? That's what we talked about! Also see http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59747 starting about Post 32.



I'm pretty sure I missed all that, I only skimmed the first half of the thread as I want making liquid soap yet. The only reason I even thought of it was because my husband finally complimented one of my soaps without excessive nagging and it happened to be my first liquid soap.


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## DeeAnna (May 29, 2017)

Yes, the OTHER thread is longer and started in 2016 ... but the gist is in THIS thread if you just want the executive summary. THIS thread is only 24 posts long including this one, and it only got started on the 4th of this month. So might want to read the whole thing.


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## WhackySoaper (May 29, 2017)

Hi Susie, HELLLPPPP PLEASE. I know the saying is patience is a virtue but at this point I'm screaming and pulling my hair out. It's been 7 days since the dilution process I only have a week supply of soap left so I'll need to use this batch I made over a week ago very soon. As I mentioned the soap was way to thick so I added water to thin it out but it is too thin so I added more paste but it's not thickening, please if you have any suggestions trust me it will be so much appreciated.


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## DeeAnna (May 29, 2017)

Three options -- pick one or all --

1. If you have any paste left, start over with that paste and dilute more cautiously. 

2. Just use what you've got the way it already is. It's useful soap even if it's not thick enough to suit you. 

3. Put the too-thin soap in a crock pot with the lid off and the temp setting on high. Let some water evaporate and see what happens.

I won't be terribly surprised to hear the diluted soap from this batch is either too thick or too thin, and it doesn't seem possible to dilute it to a "just right" consistency.


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