# Natural colourings - increase ratio of powder to oil or add more of the infused oil?!



## Debs (Feb 8, 2017)

Sorry for the long title!! 
HI!  I am hoping to get a little help with concentrating my colours - or, actually getting some!!  I want to use natural ingredients as far as possible and so with my newly purchased alkanet root and nettle powder I followed various suggestions of how to infuse oil with the natural colourants.  I added 2 tablespoons of nettle powder in 5oz OO, shook once a day for 6 weeks then added one  tablespoon of that oil into my base mix.  I am still only experimenting so my recipe is 18 oz of oils and butters in total, of which 9 oz is oo.  The colour looked like an off white.
I did the same using alkanet root but added 3 tablespoons of root to 5 oz OO and did the same as above and gained a greyish blue off white.  
In order for me to get a more distinct pink/ purple and a green colour would you suggest I up the powder/root in the 5 oz of oil or up the amount of infused oil in my base?!!!  After seeing pics of some lovely soaps on this site, especially by someone who experimented with herbs and shared all the details I was a little disappointed.....not to be put off I will try again but hoped I'd get a little help before hand.  Thanks everyone!!
Debs


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## Obsidian (Feb 8, 2017)

I would use more of the infused oil. When I was using natural colors, I used a full 2 oz of infused oil per color and always got a nice shade. So your recipe with 9 oz of OO would turn into 2 oz infused OO, 7 oz regular OO.


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## Susie (Feb 8, 2017)

I use a heat infusion method.  I put about 1 oz paprika in about 6-8 oz OO in a jar, then put it into a pot with a dish cloth or something to keep the bottom of the jar from touching the pot.  Add the lid, then add water to the pot to come up at least half way up, bring to boil, reduce to simmer.  Simmer about half an hour, then turn the heat off and let it come to room temperature.  I let mine sit overnight to let the paprika settle, then pour it off.  I just use enough colored oil to get the color I want.  Maybe this method will work for you on those.


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## Seawolfe (Feb 8, 2017)

Obsidian said:


> I would use more of the infused oil. When I was using natural colors, I used a full 2 oz of infused oil per color and always got a nice shade. So your recipe with 9 oz of OO would turn into 2 oz infused OO, 7 oz regular OO.



This is what I do when trying a new color. Plus I dont add the regular OO until I get the shade that I like. So 1 oz, mix, check color, add another oz, mix and check. When you get the shade you want, you can add the rest of the uncolored OO. I hope that makes sense...


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## Debs (Feb 9, 2017)

Seawolfe said:


> This is what I do when trying a new color. Plus I dont add the regular OO until I get the shade that I like. So 1 oz, mix, check color, add another oz, mix and check. When you get the shade you want, you can add the rest of the uncolored OO. I hope that makes sense...



Ah OK - I assumed the colour would change more during saponification but what you are saying is I should be able to see the colour i am going to get in the pan before hand.......doesn't adding the uncoloured OO weaken the colour??

Another Q - do you both weigh your infused oil out into ounce measurements so you are accurate or just weigh the original jar with the infused oil in before and after adding what you want and doing a bit of maths?  

Will try this method at the weekend - 
Thank you !!


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## Susie (Feb 9, 2017)

Not Seawolfe, but:

1.  Yes, it does weaken the color a bit.  You need to account for that when adding the oil.  You get stronger colors with gelled soap, also. 

2.  I tare the scale with my bowl of oils on it before adding the colored oil, so I know how much I added, then I add the remainder of the uncolored oil needed for the recipe.


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## penelopejane (Feb 9, 2017)

Debs said:


> Ah OK - I assumed the colour would change more during saponification but what you are saying is I should be able to see the colour i am going to get in the pan before hand.......doesn't adding the uncoloured OO weaken the colour??
> 
> Another Q - do you both weigh your infused oil out into ounce measurements so you are accurate or just weigh the original jar with the infused oil in before and after adding what you want and doing a bit of maths?
> 
> ...



I use the heat method like Susie and measure like Susie but I added 5 oz of infused olive oil to One 1 kg batch as part of my OO. Got a good colour at first but it fades over time as do most natural colourants.


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## Seawolfe (Feb 10, 2017)

I have a sneaking suspicion Susie and I share a brain, our soapy ways are the same.



Susie said:


> Not Seawolfe, but:
> 
> 1.  Yes, it does weaken the color a bit.  You need to account for that when adding the oil.  You get stronger colors with gelled soap, also.
> 
> 2.  I tare the scale with my bowl of oils on it before adding the colored oil, so I know how much I added, then I add the remainder of the uncolored oil needed for the recipe.



With natural colorants, you will never get an exact recipe that will work the same for you, there's to many variables. So create a method with that in mind.


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## Debs (Feb 11, 2017)

Susie said:


> Not Seawolfe, but:
> 
> 1.  Yes, it does weaken the color a bit.  You need to account for that when adding the oil.  You get stronger colors with gelled soap, also.
> 
> 2.  I tare the scale with my bowl of oils on it before adding the colored oil, so I know how much I added, then I add the remainder of the uncolored oil needed for the recipe.



Of course silly me!!!  I guess I am still at the 'scared' point where I daren't add oils to oils in case I go over and it goes horribly wrong!!  

will have a go this weekend as I need to try out my new soap cutter - too excited!!!

Thanks for all the replies


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## Seawolfe (Feb 11, 2017)

LOL when I was at the "scared to pour oil directly in the soap batter" stage, I would fill disposable cups with 2 oz increments of colored and uncolored oil. That made it easy to see how much I had used and how much I had to go. Any I didnt use went back in their containers.



Debs said:


> Of course silly me!!!  I guess I am still at the 'scared' point where I daren't add oils to oils in case I go over and it goes horribly wrong!!
> 
> will have a go this weekend as I need to try out my new soap cutter - too excited!!!
> 
> Thanks for all the replies


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## Susie (Feb 11, 2017)

I still measure out some things separately.  It is just that ultra cautiousness in me.  But, to be fair, I have had to re-size recipes to account for "oops" more than once.


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## penelopejane (Feb 11, 2017)

Debs said:


> Ah OK - I assumed the colour would change more during saponification but what you are saying is I should be able to see the colour i am going to get in the pan before hand.......doesn't adding the uncoloured OO weaken the colour??
> 
> Another Q - do you both weigh your infused oil out into ounce measurements so you are accurate or just weigh the original jar with the infused oil in before and after adding what you want and doing a bit of maths?
> 
> ...



I think the colour you get in the batter changes after saponification.  At least it did for me. The reason I weighed out the infused oil was so I could replicate the process but as seawolf said there are so many variables when using natural ingredients replicating it exactly is nearly impossible.  

In total the amount of oil and infused oil have to measure exactly in grams what the recipe says.  All your ingredients should be really exact or you will get sticky or soft soap. 

Just know natural colours will fade, quite quickly.


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## Debs (Feb 12, 2017)

Another good idea - thanks Seawolfe.

Susie I'm not too sure i could re size off the top of my head yet!  I'm still at the stage of checking the amounts of everything twice!  couldn't do that when I experimented with cocoa powder though.....  I added cocoa powder as a strip inside to see what it would look like and I got chocolate everywhere...i used a small tea strainer to shake it in my mold, not really thinking, and then I had cocoa on my hands, then on my glasses as nervously I'd reached up and pushed them up my nose...what a mess LOL!!  Then the dog came in to see what I was lamenting about....tried to help me clear it up ..chased her out ....oh dear me!! 

Penelpejane - Good advice thanks.   I also try and make a note of what I add to what...didn't quite go to plan with the cocoa powder though - got too complacent thinking i'd just shake some in....ah well all learning experiences.

Hi
Following on from a discussion I started a few days ago/yesterday???  about infused oils and whether to add more of it.....I went to use my infused oil which has been standing for 8 weeks now.  I used some at 6 weeks and no problems but now at 8 weeks both the OO infused with  nettle powder and the OO infused with alkanet root, and the one infused with paprika seems to have a swirl of...'fog' in it.  Unsure whether this is still ok to use???  Should i have strained the infused oil and taken out the powder/root residue at 6 weeks and then left any left over oil in the fridge or is the 'swirl' just residue and is ok to use???  
Was going to up the amounts of infused oil to my recipe as suggested this evening but will wait until I read replies/suggestions/advice.

Thanks in advance!!  UK time is now evening so I will hopefully wake to find answers have magically appeared over night!!!! Debs


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## Millie (Feb 12, 2017)

Did you get a cold spell? Probably just some fatty acids solidifying


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## Debs (Feb 13, 2017)

Thanks Millie - yes we did and it is sitting on the kitchen window sill which is blooming freezing.  Excellent, I am now going to go and use it up!!


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## Susie (Feb 13, 2017)

Debs said:


> Susie I'm not too sure i could re size off the top of my head yet!  I'm still at the stage of checking the amounts of everything twice!  couldn't do that when I experimented with cocoa powder though..... Debs



Nope, me neither.  I leave soapee.com open on my computer with that recipe pulled up while I soap.  If I drop too much of something into that bowl, I dash the 12 feet to the computer, and re-run that recipe.  Print it out, and dash back.  I never, ever use a recipe that has not been run through a lye calculator.  

I have never used anything infused except paprika.  I can make quite a few colors just with that oil by varying the amounts.  I still use it, even with micas in the house.  Paprika colors do not fade.  They may fade if exposed to sunlight, but none of my old bars have faded.  I even have a small piece of the first bar I made with it, and no fading.


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## Soapprentice (Feb 13, 2017)

Sorry for hijacking the thread but this gives rise to the question
If we are adding multiple colours, and we separate at emulsion and add coloured oils, which of the following is better?
1. Calculate the lye for the oils that will be added at emulsion and keeping the super fat at 5% for the recipe 
2. Keeping the super fat at 0% without adding the oils that will be added for colour to the recipe?


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## Millie (Feb 13, 2017)

The one time I did a color swirl with infused oils, I made separate batches and swirled them together. The amount of infused oil I needed was way more than a superfat. I think you'd have to do a solid color batch first with each infusion to see how much colored oil you'll need and make calculations from there. 

To complicate things, you might need lots from your annato and just a little from your madder, as an example, depending on the color you are aiming for and the strength of your infusion, so making separate batches might be necessary on occassion.

*I use pigments and micas, so much easier but I admire you all for sticking to that natural thing


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## Susie (Feb 13, 2017)

Millie said:


> The one time I did a color swirl with infused oils, I made seperate batches and swirled them together. The amount of infused oil I needed was way more than a superfat. I think you'd have to do a solid color batch first with each infusion to see how much colored oil you'll need and make calculations from there.



^^^What Millie said!  I would never be able to figure out ahead of time exactly how much oil each color will take.  I would make separate batches.  

Or I would keep to a simple two color design where I would make the whole batch with the colored oil, then add cocoa to part of the batter to make part brown.


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## Soapprentice (Feb 13, 2017)

I use pigments and placed order for mica samples as well... being new at soaping, I just wanted to experiment with all the colourants... I am a curious cat.


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## Debs (Feb 14, 2017)

Well yesterday I made my new batches with an increase of the infused oil as suggested and wow!!!
I added 2oz of the infused nettle powder and the ti tree eo i was scenting with.  THen i took 2 uk tbsp out and added 2 tsp of nettle powder and dripped that onto half of the batter in the mold.  I tried to swirl but i haven't mastered this yet, then i put the rest of the batter on top.  This morning it is a beautiful mint colour with a dark green layer!!  yay!!

The alkanet is a little darker than I want - but hey, i got colour!!!  i added 2 0z again of the infused root and lavender and lemongrass eo - i got a lovely pink on 1oz but thought i'd go with 2oz to see and it looks like aubergine/dark plum.  Will wait to see if it lightens over the next week or so but thanks everyone ....i got colour!!!  AND - i get to use my new soap cutter on them!! double yay!!

Debs


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## penelopejane (Feb 14, 2017)

Debs said:


> Well yesterday I made my new batches with an increase of the infused oil as suggested and wow!!!
> I added 2oz of the infused nettle powder and the ti tree eo i was scenting with.  THen i took 2 uk tbsp out and added 2 tsp of nettle powder and dripped that onto half of the batter in the mold.  I tried to swirl but i haven't mastered this yet, then i put the rest of the batter on top.
> Debs



I don't understand why you added 2oz of oil but took out 2 Tbs and added 2tsp of oil?

Are you saying you didn't mix the nettle powder oil into the soap batter?


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## Debs (Feb 16, 2017)

penelopejane said:


> I don't understand why you added 2oz of oil but took out 2 Tbs and added 2tsp of oil?
> 
> Are you saying you didn't mix the nettle powder oil into the soap batter?



NO - that is my poor communication in my excitement!! I infused the powder initially in OO for 8 weeks....2 UK tbsp in 5oz oil and added 2oz of that infused oil to my oils at the beginning with my other butters and fats.  But once it had gone to light trace i took out some batter and added nettle powder (not more infused oil) to give me more of an intense green colour that i used to add a strip.  I am new to colouring and someone suggested i could do this so i thought i'd give it a go.  So i have a mint soap with a dark green strip - looks quite cool even if i do say so myself!!  i am assuming it will fade a bit but it was good to experiment.   i didn't add any more of the infused oil as that would have altered the recipe and i am guessing made it a bit sticky?   
Sorry for the confusion! - Debs


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## earlene (Feb 16, 2017)

Sounds lovely.  I'd love to see some pictures of your success if you have them.


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## penelopejane (Feb 16, 2017)

Debs said:


> NO - that is my poor communication in my excitement!! I infused the powder initially in OO for 8 weeks....2 UK tbsp in 5oz oil and added 2oz of that infused oil to my oils at the beginning with my other butters and fats.  But once it had gone to light trace i took out some batter and added nettle powder (not more infused oil) to give me more of an intense green colour that i used to add a strip.  I am new to colouring and someone suggested i could do this so i thought i'd give it a go.  So i have a mint soap with a dark green strip - looks quite cool even if i do say so myself!!  i am assuming it will fade a bit but it was good to experiment.   i didn't add any more of the infused oil as that would have altered the recipe and i am guessing made it a bit sticky?
> Sorry for the confusion! - Debs



Was the 2 oz of infused oil part of the amount of oil in the recipe?

If so it sounds great. 
Yes, you have to be careful not to willy nilly add more oil than the recipe.

Next time if you want to speed the infusion process you can heat the oil and nettle slowly in a double boiler or an hour or two.


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## Debs (Feb 16, 2017)

earlene said:


> Sounds lovely.  I'd love to see some pictures of your success if you have them.



Well i tried to upload an image and it said it had done it but i have no idea where it went!!!  LOL


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## Debs (Feb 16, 2017)

penelopejane said:


> Was the 2 oz of infused oil part of the amount of oil in the recipe?
> 
> If so it sounds great.
> Yes, you have to be careful not to willy nilly add more oil than the recipe.
> ...



Yes it was part of the amount of oil in the recipe.  
I think I will try the head infusion as Susie also mentioned it on page 1 of this thread- If it speeds things up I am up for that!!  I only managed to squeeze 2oz of infused alkanet oil out of the 5oz i put in - the alkenet root was lovely and wet but i couldn't get anymore out and was too impatient to let it drip over night through a cloth!!  so this weekend i will try it. 
Debs


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## penelopejane (Feb 16, 2017)

Debs said:


> Well i tried to upload an image and it said it had done it but i have no idea where it went!!!  LOL



In manage attachments you have to choose your photo which uploads (selects it) it then hit upload button (which uploads it to SMF)  then close window for it to save.


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## Debs (Feb 16, 2017)

I am hoping that I have done this correctly and my photo will be attached with this message!!
Yay it worked! Thanks  Penelopejane!  The photo isn't great but you can see a tinge of mint and the alkanet root is very mauve at the mo'/  i am hoping it fades to a lighter shade of purple, or pink.


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## earlene (Feb 16, 2017)

I love that dark color of your alkanet root soap.  For me, alkanet root tends to be a bit unpredictable, but I have only used it maybe 3 times, so I have yet to learn the ins and outs of how it interacts with different recipes as well as how much to use to get the color intensity I want.

My first soap with it, came out with grey swirls.  I was happy with the swirls, but the color was a shock.  During cure, it remained grey and I was really disappointed until washing with it.  Suddenly it turned purple when it hit the water, and stayed that way when the soap dried.  I had not expected that.  The last soap with Alkanet root is also grey, but very dark grey.  I haven't got it wet yet to see if it changes, which I expect it will.  Right now it looks like I colored it with Activated Charcoal.  But I did not use the heated oil infusion method, so I intend to  try that next time.  I used a cold oil infusion both times.

I've never used mint in soap, so have no experience with it.  But I did use dried spinach powder (dried & pulverized it myself) in soap.  It had lovely swirls and was a nice two tone green in the beginning, but faded to a solid white during cure.  To my surprise, when boiling it when I was salting out some soap, it turned spinach green again in the boiling water!  I still had one bar left that I had not put into the salting out batch and so I thought I'd test it out in the shower to see if the color came back.  It did somewhat turn green, but not like when added to the boiling water.  I thought that was an interesting phenomenon.


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## Millie (Feb 16, 2017)

Pretty! The nettle soap looks fresh and minty and the alkanet soap looks like raspberry sorbet. I would love to know how the colors hold up over time, please share more photos


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## Debs (Feb 17, 2017)

Thanks Millie- felt quite brave putting it up for scrutiny lol.  The Alkanet root is pretty but not the colour I want.  It's for a lavender soap so I think it looks more appropriate for something more rosey.  Will have another go using less of the infused oil and I will have a go at the heat method to speed up the waiting process!  May try clays too as I have read that they can give pastel colours.......trouble is there is so much I want to try and so little time!!! 
DEbs


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## Debs (Feb 25, 2017)

Well - these are the 4 photos of the different shades of purple i have got from different ratios of alkanet oil in my recipe.  Kind of want something between the middle too - more lilac ....so guess what i am doing this afternoon?!


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## Susie (Feb 25, 2017)

Debs said:


> I am hoping that I have done this correctly and my photo will be attached with this message!!
> Yay it worked! Thanks  Penelopejane!  The photo isn't great but you can see a tinge of mint and the alkanet root is very mauve at the mo'/  i am hoping it fades to a lighter shade of purple, or pink.



Please take that soap off that metal rack!  Metals can cause DOS (dreaded orange spots, AKA rancidity) in soaps.


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## Debs (Feb 25, 2017)

Thanks Susie - I didn't know that!!  thankfully the first photos showed the soap on my emergency rack as i'd run out of space- they were soon moved to a cake rack......gosh, best go and check what material the cake racks are made of?! If the metal has a plastic covering does that make it better or still bad??
Need advice on curing racks!!!  :???:


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## earlene (Feb 25, 2017)

*Debs*, I use some plastic coated racks, but check them regularly for deterioration.  The coating does deteriorate over time.  But mostly I used crafters plastic canvas that you can find in many stores that have a crafter's section.  Looks like this:






I also use plastic mesh shelf liner which is easy to cut to size and I had a lot of it so the price was right.  You can purchase either in many stores and online and they are very affordable.





I use them inside of cardboard box tops for ease of carrying and stacking.

BTW, I love the purple you got and it's nice to see the variation of color.


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## Debs (Feb 25, 2017)

Oh that's a great idea thank you earlene!  They'll be easy to clean too.  I have some wooden blocks that I am using to stack my racks as all my experiments are mounting up!  But like you say, I can stack cardboard trays with these inside....feel a shop coming on!


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## penelopejane (Feb 25, 2017)

If you are trying other natural Colours don't bother with spirulina as a green colour. It looks great at first, a lovely deep green, but it fades to fawn quickly. Also, even though I strained the spirulina through a stocking, it was an irritant to me and my DH. It made me itch all over. I couldn't use it at all.


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## anjouwu (Mar 3, 2017)

I second the warning about Spirulina. The color can be lovely but it does fade. My issue is that it left the soap with a noticeable "off" smell, and often interacts with your EO/FO in unusual ways. 

Also, and you may already know this, but skip beet powder. It turns an unappealing brown in CP.


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