# Spring Craft Fair_ Keep my Mouth Shut Nope



## cmzaha

Big Bust if I had to depend on just selling soap. This again is a craft fair I have been doing for 5 or 6 yrs and the manager keeps bring in more and more soapmakers. One other soapmaker has done this one for at least 15 yrs. We were up against 5 other soapmakers in a smallish craft fair. Fortunately my husbands golf accessories sold well. 
I just could not keep my big mouth shut when I saw one of the soapmakers sell soap that CURES eczema, psoriasis, Herpes, etc etc. Unwrapped, unlabeled soap. I told her it is interesting she sells an unlabeled Drug. Ah yes she is working with FDA...and I am a idiot that would believe it. Also she did not seem to like to advertise her business name. Wonder why new bills are trying to pass. I hate selling against such people


----------



## Seawolfe

Gosh Im sorry - that must be insanely frustrating. I guess I wish the people in charge of the craft fair were more discerning. Oh and that people like that soap maker would stop acting like snake oil salespeople.


----------



## Aline

I was at a craft fair recently where a woman was sellings 'eczema and psoriasis cream' advertised on a big banner. Actually I see people selling things on Etsy that violate FDA rules and nobody stops them.....
What really 'takes the biscuit' for me though was seeing a local health food store selling a local brand that claims their pineapple, coconut and plumeria lotions are scented with essential oils (and they don't list a preservative). This is a company that has sales of over $750 K per year! I have been aware of their dishonest labeling for a long time and plan on reporting them to the FDA/FTC.....if I ever find the time. They are everywhere in Hawaii and I'm sure they are 'inspriing' other people here to follow suit.


----------



## OliveOil2

Carolyn I am sorry you had to deal with that situation, this weekend I attended a community garage/flea market, I had no expectations, and it was a nice day much better that I thought. But I can't keep my mouth shut either, a woman came up to my table and wanted to take pictures of everything so she could buy items just like mine to sell. What is wrong with people, she let me know that she could 'import' for less than I was charging. I told her to go ahead and do it then, and that mass produced are not the same as handcrafted.


----------



## JBot

Yep. . .these are the careless, irresponsible people who are going to trigger a bunch of regulations so burdensome that it'll ruin it for the rest of us.


----------



## shunt2011

Carolyn, I too have seen the same thing at shows and markets.  I'm done keeping my mouth shut for those who are flat out ignoring regulations.  Especially those who tell customers that have purchased my soap with FO's and colorants that they are dangerous.  There's aren't colored and will cure all sort of ailments.  I'm done!!!


----------



## Cjchrissy

I just made a soap for my granddaughter for her acne, I also my grandson an eczema cream. I know they work on my grandchildren so your saying legally I can't say that it helps with eczema or acne?


----------



## lizard1232

If you make any therapeutic claims, your soap is no longer soap and is now considered a drug. Here's a link to the FDA's website, complete with descriptions for soap, cosmetics, and drugs: http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceRegulation/LawsRegulations/ucm074201.htm


----------



## lpstephy85

Had a similar situation these past two weekends. The first weekend I had a honey bee farmer next to me who makes soap and lotions as well. So I got to hear her whole speel about how the honey does this and that medically as well as her soaps. She actually ended up being at the same show I did this weekend but was far away from me this time. From what my younger sister said there was another soap and lotion person there who tried to tell my sister that get stuff would help with my sister's fibromyalgia. Once she heard that she just turned around and walked away. 

I do bend the rules a touch talking up my lotion sticks and tell people how great they work on the heels of my feet but that's it. I would never tell someone they can be cured of something using my products.

I would have loved to have said something to the honey lady but unfortunately she is in good with the people that I just did my last two shows with 

I do think it is people like them that make it hard for those following regulations to make a decent profit because the general public believes all they hear (I also blame Dr. Oz for this, too).


----------



## galaxyMLP

That is very frustrating. :sad:

I'm trying to be legal and that is VERY hard in florida. I'm almost to the point where I will just label my products correctly and abide by the FDA rules but still sell a little bit of salve here and there (cant sell cosmetics in florida w/o umpteen licenses). 

My mother wants to help me sell my soaps/salves in her area (she told her teacher co-workers that I would sell my salve to them, even though I explicitly told her it is illegal) and on top of that she made claims that it "will completely heal your cracked feet and works wonders for eczema". I actually scolded her in front of her co-workers because she was saying this right in front of me. 

I said to them that even if it helps with their eczema or heals their skin, I can't make those claims as I am not legally allowed to. They took to it well and actually respected me for my honesty. Hopefully there will be more customers like that. I have to tread a very fine line even with just soaps. She wants to sell my goats milk oatmeal castile soap as being a cure for eczema and other skin issues... :neutral:

ETA: I does kinda suck b/c my brother who has eczema really does benefit from my products but I don't think my mom (or a lot of people) realize how stern the law is on this. My mom still doesn't believe me when I tell her how much money it would be to start selling lotions or labeling my soaps as cosmetics or that I can't make them in my home. I've read the entire statute multiple times and the FDA definitions to see if I can find loopholes but... I cant.


----------



## not_ally

> I just made a soap for my granddaughter for her acne, I also my grandson an eczema cream. I know they work on my grandchildren so your saying legally I can't say that it helps with eczema or acne?



That is *exactly* what the law says.  All the FDA regs in connection with soaps say this, without any gray areas.  The only thing you can say if you want to sell your soap as soap is that it cleans, period.


----------



## cmzaha

shunt2011 said:


> Carolyn, I too have seen the same thing at shows and markets.  I'm done keeping my mouth shut for those who are flat out ignoring regulations.  Especially those who tell customers that have purchased my soap with FO's and colorants that they are dangerous.  There's aren't colored and will cure all sort of ailments.  I'm done!!!


And I was doing so good at not saying anything...but when I saw the Cures Herpes on her signage that was the final straw
@ Cjchrissy I make a killer Avocado Argan that my daughter uses for my granddaughters severe diaper rash and it heals it fantastically, but I cannot and do not state it is healing. I used it on my elbow this weekend that was really cracked and chapped from my eczema and it was actually 80% better the next day. I do my very best to follow labeling rules and do not make claims. People that do this hurt every lotion/soapmaker in the market


----------



## Cjchrissy

I make tinctures and salves and I , but I don't sell, I just give away, say that people have suggested that lemon balm might help anxiety, or this salve might help with your burn. I thought that wasn't crossing the line or do I just say..here try this soap..it might help..


----------



## IrishLass

Cjchrissy said:


> I make tinctures and salves and I , but I don't sell, I just give away, say that people have suggested that lemon balm might help anxiety, or this salve might help with your burn. I thought that wasn't crossing the line or do I just say..here try this soap..it might help..


 
As I understand things (and please someone correct me if I am wrong), if you are only making things for yourself or for giving away to family and friends and telling them that such and such salve might help with this or that problem, as opposed to actually making and labeling products for sale that have healing claims on the packaging, then you are fine and have not run afoul of the FDA regs. In other words, I believe the regs apply only to those who sell (at least in the USA). Hopefully someone  will chime in and confirm that since I myself don't sell.


IrishLass


----------



## Lion Of Judah

I do think it is people like them that make it hard for those following reshuffle regulations to make a decent profit because the general public believes all they hear (I also blame Dr. Oz for this, too).[/QUOTE]

Why is Dr.Oz to be blamed for this ?????


----------



## lpstephy85

Lion Of Judah said:


> I do think it is people like them that make it hard for those following reshuffle regulations to make a decent profit because the general public believes all they hear (I also blame Dr. Oz for this, too).



Why is Dr.Oz to be blamed for this ?????[/QUOTE]

I don't believe the things that he says have any merit. I think he makes this world more sensitive to things and puts ideas in to peoples heads that everything is harmful (and I am not saying he is 100% to blame for this, just one piece of the puzzle. I was also half asleep and ranting when I shouldn't have been :crazy


----------



## kchaystack

Lion Of Judah said:


> Why is Dr.Oz to be blamed for this ?????



Because he is a fairly famous paid shill for a bunch of questionable 'medical' supplements.  Green coffee extract being the best known example.


----------



## not_ally

IL, I think you're fine.  I'm pretty sure the FDA regs only apply to labeling products for sale.  

I can check if you want me to, but I wouldn't worry in your case at all.


----------



## mattiesmom

Re: Dr. Oz -  Apparently medical professionals are now beginning to call him to task as reported on national news a few days ago.  I agree he's nothing more than a salesman for anyone/anything promising a fantastic cure for one thing or another--none of which he offers any real proof of.


----------



## happyshopper

I understand that in the states you are not allowed to make any claims just that soap is soap and cleans.

However if you are selling at a fair and someone approaches your stall asking if you sell anything for eczema etc are you allowed to tell them a particular soap has worked for your daughter/niece etc as long as you state whilst it has worked for them you cannot guarantee it will work for everyone?

It must be extremely frustrating for the EU sellers as well as the legitimate ones come up against those that do not hold safety certificates, these will be the sellers pricing their soap cheap as they have not gone to the expense of obtaining one and can purchase the cheap oils that do not have traceable batch numbers.


----------



## shunt2011

happyshopper said:


> I understand that in the states you are not allowed to make any claims just that soap is soap and cleans.
> 
> However if you are selling at a fair and someone approaches your stall asking if you sell anything for eczema etc are you allowed to tell them a particular soap has worked for your daughter/niece etc as long as you state whilst it has worked for them you cannot guarantee it will work for everyone?


 
Simple answer is no.  We cannot say any such thing.  That would still be making claims.  I'm sure some will stretch that a bit though. Sometimes it's so difficult not to say anything.


----------



## happyshopper

shunt2011 said:


> Simple answer is no.  We cannot say any such thing.  That would still be making claims.  I'm sure some will stretch that a bit though. Sometimes it's so difficult not to say anything.



Thanks thats interesting. So every answer question you are asked about such things you have to reply "I can only say it cleans!" Thats harsh especially if the person next door is claiming their soap cures all.

At least with the EU regulations they are easily checked one seller can inform on another seller and a check can be made if they are allowed to sell. Unless you have a tape recorder how are you suppose to prove that a seller is making these claims.


----------



## kchaystack

happyshopper said:


> Thanks thats interesting. So every answer question you are asked about such things you have to reply "I can only say it cleans!" Thats harsh especially if the person next door is claiming their soap cures all.
> 
> At least with the EU regulations they are easily checked one seller can inform on another seller and a check can be made if they are allowed to sell. Unless you have a tape recorder how are you suppose to prove that a seller is making these claims.



Even with that kind of proof you are not going to get much reaction out of the FDA.  They do not have the man-power or the budget to investigate.  I have seen several stories where responsible soapers have made complaints to about others making a claim, only to be told there was nothing that could be done. 

Where it might come in to play is if someone is injured by the soap and files a civil suit.  Then they might be able to get enough traction to have an investigation.


----------



## shunt2011

Unfortunately not only do they tell customers what miracles their soaps/products can perform but they generally have signs touting their miracle cures as well.  We could report them but I'm sure that would take all kinds of time.


----------



## happyshopper

Have you thought about putting a sign/notice on your stall something along the lines of

Customers please note: In the US there are laws regarding selling soap (you could state the act to make it sound more official), a seller is not allowed to make any claims other than it cleans. If a seller is making claims in addition to this they need to hold a valid cosmetics licence (or whatever it is). I do not make any claims that break the law, I label my soaps with the ingredients so my customers can see what they contain to enable them to make their own informed decision on what they think would best suit their requirements.  
Please do not ask me questions about the abilities of my soap as I cannot answer them without breaking the law, if you choose to purchase from a seller who will answer these questions and makes claims that their soap cures .........etc please ask them to produce a copy of the relevant licence that enables them to make these claims. 
Sellers that break the law are taking business away for those who work within it. I am not asking you to buy my soaps but am kindly requesting that you purchase from a seller who sells within the law.

ok so that turned out to be a bit of an essay! but you get my point maybe a short statement along those lines which you could put on display discreetly.


----------



## kchaystack

As I understand it claiming that your soap just cleans means that you have no requirements to label ingredients and such.  If you claim your soap moisturizes, smoothes, or the like, it becomes a cosmetic, and you must follow the FDA regulations for listing ingredients.  If you make claims that it cures anything then it becomes a medicine, and that has a whole other set of requirements.  

Is that right?


----------



## cmzaha

kchaystack said:


> As I understand it claiming that your soap just cleans means that you have no requirements to label ingredients and such.  If you claim your soap moisturizes, smoothes, or the like, it becomes a cosmetic, and you must follow the FDA regulations for listing ingredients.  If you make claims that it cures anything then it becomes a medicine, and that has a whole other set of requirements.
> 
> Is that right?


Yes, but customers do appreciate labeled soaps. I label all as if they are a cosmetic.


----------



## kchaystack

cmzaha said:


> Yes, but customers do appreciate labeled soaps. I label all as if they are a cosmetic.



Oh, I believe you, and I always label the soap I give away like that also.  I just wanted to make sure I understood the rules so I can explain them to people.


----------



## dosco

kchaystack said:


> As I understand it claiming that your soap just cleans means that you have no requirements to label ingredients and such.



I don't know. The webpage with the definition of soap states that it can only be made of "salts of fatty acids." It also states that it can only be labeled as "soap" ... my interpretation is that you'd have to have a label that 1) identifies the product as "soap", and 2) identifies the ingredients (which can only be salts of fatty acids).

But I don't sell ... so ... take it for what its worth.

-Dave


----------



## Cjchrissy

I think you might be able to say, it is said that in the 1900s people used the ingredients in this soap to cure skin sores. You are putting the owners on the purchaser and its up to them to make a decision and do their research. It's pretty lax where I live, an isolated community of 12,000 and the farmers market isn't monitered. One thing I would list on my soaps that it may contain nuts oils, just in case cross contamination...


----------



## shunt2011

dosco said:


> I don't know. The webpage with the definition of soap states that it can only be made of "salts of fatty acids." It also states that it can only be labeled as "soap" ... my interpretation is that you'd have to have a label that 1) identifies the product as "soap", and 2) identifies the ingredients (which can only be salts of fatty acids).
> 
> But I don't sell ... so ... take it for what its worth.
> 
> -Dave


 
Nope, if you are only selling as soap you don't need to even label it.   I choose to so that customers can see what's in them just in case of allergies etc.  Plus, I think labeled soaps look nice and professional.


----------



## FlybyStardancer

Cjchrissy said:


> I think you might be able to say, it is said that in the 1900s people used the ingredients in this soap to cure skin sores.



Nope, you can't say that because then you're making a claim by association.


----------



## shunt2011

Cjchrissy said:


> I think you might be able to say, it is said that in the 1900s people used the ingredients in this soap to cure skin sores. You are putting the owners on the purchaser and its up to them to make a decision and do their research. It's pretty lax where I live, an isolated community of 12,000 and the farmers market isn't monitered. One thing I would list on my soaps that it may contain nuts oils, just in case cross contamination...


 
Unfortunately you can't say anything like that.  Even if something was used in to heal/cure something in the 1800's you cannot make reference to it.

There's a women at my farmer's market who does that and it frustrates me to no end. I even heard her say it cure foot fungus.


----------



## Gren

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought you could mention the ingredients, for instance lavender EO and say something like "Lavender EO has been shown to..."; essentially insinuating that your product can do something without actually saying it does.  But yeah, unless you have clinical data to back up your product claims, you can't say "My soap cures eczema" or anything to that effect.


----------



## cmzaha

Gren said:


> Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought you could mention the ingredients, for instance lavender EO and say something like "Lavender EO has been shown to..."; essentially insinuating that your product can do something without actually saying it does. But yeah, unless you have clinical data to back up your product claims, you can't say "My soap cures eczema" or anything to that effect.


Technically you cannot, from my understanding it is still implying


----------



## lpstephy85

I just at this point let those that buy my soaps see what it does for their skin. If it does something magical, great I'll have a returning customer. I just focus on quality and know one day it will get me somewhere. Heck, it got me a private label deal so it already has done something. Play it on the safe side and don't make any claims about anything in your soap. What if you give it to a friend and say it will do such and such. They then have a friend that might be dealing with such and such, gives them a bar of your soap based on your word and their such and such becomes worse. Now you can be held liable.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

As I understand, the association issue even goes so far that, if I list my EOs and have a pamphlet about the properties of EOs on hand for customers to read, that would be a breach. 

As it is, here in the EU, the guidance is somewhat clearer and the body more willing to react to breaches. Over here, I would indeed report anyone who was selling with no safety assessment and registration.


----------



## OliveOil2

I am thankful that I haven't had much of the cure all type of soap and salve makers at the events I have attended. I know that I would not be quiet about their claims. I have had a ton of young living reps approach me at craft fairs, seems they have been told that they can make a fortune if they recruit a soap person. They do preach that their oils will cure anything, and when I explain that I cannot make any claims like that I just get a blank stare. Where I live I am seeing smaller untruths, that still drive me crazy, all essential soap that are clearly FO, colors that are dye being marketed as natural etc.


----------



## Dana89

I wonder if soap made with Holy Water could make healing or protective claims-Blessed soap- Heals anything it touches. That may blur the FDA rules a little since they are not running into any churches to stop healing claims.
I had better shutup or some crazy bat may do just that.
I am kidding guys please don,t jump me lol.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

kchaystack said:


> Because he is a fairly famous paid shill for a bunch of questionable 'medical' supplements.  Green coffee extract being the best known example.



i still think he is far better than the doctors that support GMO and other things that agri-corp , big pharma  produce for our dinner table. at the same rate i'm not saying i support every supplement on the market either.


----------



## Lion Of Judah

Dana89 said:


> I wonder if soap made with Holy Water could make healing or protective claims-Blessed soap- Heals anything it touches. That may blur the FDA rules a little since they are not running into any churches to stop healing claims.
> I had better shutup or some crazy bat may do just that.
> I am kidding guys please don,t jump me lol.



kidding as you may , there are two good people that i know of that makes soap with holy water .... and no claims made


----------



## Gren

I retract my earlier statement, as the FDA website clearly states its position on ingredients included in a cosmetic under their intended use section:

"Ingredients that cause a product to be considered a drug because they have a well-known (to the public and industry) therapeutic use. An example is fluoride in toothpaste."

"This principle also holds true for "essential oils." For example, a fragrance marketed for promoting attractiveness is a cosmetic. But a fragrance marketed with certain "aromatherapy" claims, such as assertions that the scent will help the consumer sleep or quit smoking, meets the definition of a drug because of its intended use. Similarly, a massage oil that is simply intended to lubricate the skin and impart fragrance is a cosmetic, but if the product is intended for a therapeutic use, such as relieving muscle pain, it's a drug."

So really, the only thing you can say about soap is that it cleans and smells nice. If you're stating that an ingredient has medicinal or therapeutic properties and a consumer could reasonably be expected to assume your finished product has those same properties, then you're no longer selling a cosmetic...it's considered a drug and you've got all kinds of new regulations to deal with (which most of us couldn't even begin to comply with).

There's actually a warning letter dealing with exactly this situation posted on FDA's website:
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm440960.htm


----------



## Cjchrissy

Glad I don't sell, I don't want no liability law suits showing up, but legally can I trade and say what the properties I. The soap are if I'm doing a barter?


----------



## kchaystack

Not selling does not protect you from a lawsuit.  Sure you can say whatever you want about your soaps if you give them away, but if someone uses them and is injured in some way, you can still be taken to court for damages.


----------



## navigator9

cmzaha, would it do any good to email your market manager the FDA website. Are managers in any way responsible for the false claims of their vendors if they are aware of the legalities?


----------



## Dana89

Lion Of Judah said:


> kidding as you may , there are two good people that i know of that makes soap with holy water .... and no claims made



Hey as long as no claims are made then there is not a thing wrong with that.
My mother-in-law is Catholic and she is so strict with her holy water. Anytime we get a new car it gets doused in it, also every new home home we have lived in. I am not a religious person but it makes her feel better so I'm not complaining.


----------

