# First shampoo bars burn my eyes



## SoapRiley (Jun 25, 2018)

I recently made my own batch of shampoo bars. I followed the recipe I created on my soap calculator and let my soaps sit for a month like recommended but when I went to use them and got some soap into my eye they burned. I was wondering if maybe I should use less lye than the recipe calls for. But if I do will my oils still be converted to soap? HELP!


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## shunt2011 (Jun 25, 2018)

It’s soap, it’s going to burn if you get it in your eyes.  Using less lye won’t eliminate the burning.  My body soap burns my eyes if it gets in them.


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## zanzalawi (Jun 25, 2018)

My eyes burn if dust gets in them, or makeup, or regular shampoo
Even “no more tears” shampoo makes my eyes burn
That has nothing to do with your recipe [emoji5]


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## SoapRiley (Jun 26, 2018)

zanzalawi said:


> My eyes burn if dust gets in them, or makeup, or regular shampoo
> Even “no more tears” shampoo makes my eyes burn
> That has nothing to do with your recipe [emoji5]


I thought about that but I don’t want them to burn any potential customers too bad when I decide to sell them


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## SunRiseArts (Jun 26, 2018)

SoapRiley, I do not make shampoo bars, but I am guessing  it will the same as CP?  4 weeks is not a long cure.  Perhaps you can wait another 2 to 4 weeks and it might be a little milder.

Also I have noticed that a lot of people who complain about eyes burning is not the soap but the fragrance.  Many people use one ounce per pound, but that is not correct.  Always include your fragrance in your recipe calculations, and always check the maximum percentage where you bought them.  Is usually 6%, but it can vary.  6% is more like .80 ounces for a total batch of 20 to 22 ounces.  I know this, because I usually make only 4 bars at a time, so around one pound.

And 6% would be maximum usage.


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## soapmaker (Jun 26, 2018)

It will burn your eyes no matter how old it is.


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## Relle (Jun 26, 2018)

SoapRiley said:


> I thought about that but I don’t want them to burn any potential customers too bad when I decide to sell them


I wouldn't be worried about customers and selling your soap, that should be the last thing on your mind, until you get more familiar with the making of soap. As SRA has said 4 weeks is not a long cure.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 26, 2018)

Agreed. If it's just from a recipe and you're asking questions about the effects of using less lye, I don't think it's the right time to look to sell.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 26, 2018)

SoapRiley said:


> I... I was wondering if maybe I should use less lye than the recipe calls for. But if I do will my oils still be converted to soap?...



Look in your recipe calculator for the "superfat" setting. If there's a positive number for the superfat (5% is the usual default), that means you are already using less lye than is strictly needed to make the soap. That means there will be a small amount of extra fat in your soap. Don't just decide to use even less lye.

As far as lye-based soap irritating the eyes -- yes, soap will _always _irritate the eyes and other mucous membranes, even if the soap is properly made. This irritation is not because there is excess lye in the soap; it's because soap is naturally alkaline (pH above 7). Alkaline materials are irritating to the eyes. You aren't going to change that fact by using less and less lye in the soap.

Commercial shampoos are not made from lye-based soap; they are synthetic detergent cleansers. Commercial baby shampoo is a synthetic detergent blend formulated to be less irritating to the eyes.


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## cmzaha (Jun 26, 2018)

SunRiseArts said:


> SoapRiley, I do not make shampoo bars, but I am guessing  it will the same as CP?  4 weeks is not a long cure.  Perhaps you can wait another 2 to 4 weeks and it might be a little milder.
> 
> Also I have noticed that a lot of people who complain about eyes burning is not the soap but the fragrance.  Many people use one ounce per pound, but that is not correct.  Always include your fragrance in your recipe calculations, and always check the maximum percentage where you bought them.  Is usually 6%, but it can vary.  6% is more like .80 ounces for a total batch of 20 to 22 ounces.  I know this, because I usually make only 4 bars at a time, so around one pound.
> 
> And 6% would be maximum usage.



It is not true that 1 oz ppo is wrong, even following IFRA recommendations much more can be used with some fo's. I use 1 oz ppo of oils and may normal is 1.1 oz per lb of oil which is the rate I used since I started making soap without problems, this excludes cinnamon and clove since they can be very irritating and so EO's that are just extremely strong with Thyme coming to mind.  I also do not buy fo's that have very low IFRA ratings, knowing I will end up with soap that does not have much scent in a very short time. 

First off, as DeeAnna said, it it the soap burning the eyes and any soap will. You can cure a soap for years and it will still burn the eyes. It is soap

Soap is also not good for hair so put a lot of thought behind thinking you are going to sell soap as shampoo. If you have a customer with long beautiful which is not cut often and you sell her soap for shampoo you could end up with a very unhappy customer because her hair became damaged and she had to cut it off. Think Chaz Dean and his Wen products, he settled a lawsuit, for $25 + million and has removed his lye based shampoo. What is now sells is a surfactant based lotion. This is a person that should have known better than sell *soap* for shampoo. No tear shampoo are made with surfactants which tend to not burn the eyes. As mentioned, think baby shampoo.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 26, 2018)

_"...6% is more like .80 ounces for a total batch of 20 to 22 ounces..."_

Might want to check your math. 
A total of 0.8 oz of scent in 20 to 22 oz of product is a dosage rate of 3.6% to 4%. 
In 20 ounces, a dosage rate of 6% would calculate out to be 1.2 oz of scent.

Scent weight = (Dosage rate) / 100 X (Product weight)

Example 1: For 20 ounces of product and a dosage rate of 6%, the amount of scent required is -
Scent weight = 6 / 100 X 20 = 1.2 ounces

Example 2: For 500 grams of product and a dosage rate of 4% -
Scent weight = 4 / 100 X 500 = 20 grams


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## SoapRiley (Jun 26, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> It’s soap, it’s going to burn if you get it in your eyes.  Using less lye won’t eliminate the burning.  My body soap burns my eyes if it gets in them.


Thanks !


cmzaha said:


> It is not true that 1 oz ppo is wrong, even following IFRA recommendations much more can be used with some fo's. I use 1 oz ppo of oils and may normal is 1.1 oz per lb of oil which is the rate I used since I started making soap without problems, this excludes cinnamon and clove since they can be very irritating and so EO's that are just extremely strong with Thyme coming to mind.  I also do not buy fo's that have very low IFRA ratings, knowing I will end up with soap that does not have much scent in a very short time.
> 
> First off, as DeeAnna said, it it the soap burning the eyes and any soap will. You can cure a soap for years and it will still burn the eyes. It is soap
> 
> Soap is also not good for hair so put a lot of thought behind thinking you are going to sell soap as shampoo. If you have a customer with long beautiful which is not cut often and you sell her soap for shampoo you could end up with a very unhappy customer because her hair became damaged and she had to cut it off. Think Chaz Dean and his Wen products, he settled a lawsuit, for $25 + million and has removed his lye based shampoo. What is now sells is a surfactant based lotion. This is a person that should have known better than sell *soap* for shampoo. No tear shampoo are made with surfactants which tend to not burn the eyes. As mentioned, think baby shampoo.


Which makes me wonder what is the true difference between a soap bar and a shampoo bar?


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## SoapRiley (Jun 26, 2018)

Relle said:


> I wouldn't be worried about customers and selling your soap, that should be the last thing on your mind, until you get more familiar with the making of soap. As SRA has said 4 weeks is not a long cure.


Thanks! You’re right!


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## earlene (Jun 26, 2018)

SoapRiley said:


> Which makes me wonder what is the true difference between a soap bar and a shampoo bar?



Soap is defined by US Federal regulation here:  https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/productsingredients/products/ucm115449.htm

So any soap made with lye that is "alkali salts of fatty acids", with the intent of cleaning, with no other cosmetic claims, then it is a soap.  SO, bath soap bars or shampoo bars made with lye and made with the intent to clean, not 'moisturize' etc. are soaps.  

Even if one claims the same bar of soap can moisturize or condition or whatnot, if it is made the same exact way, there is no difference in how it works or how it effects the skin or the scalp or the hair.

So for me, the bottom line is how it is made.  If it is made with lye, I would not use it on my scalp.  Others might, but I would not because I know how my hair reacts to lye soap.  It is not good for me or my hair.  I have done and speak from my own experience with my own hair.  Others may have differing experiences, but I stand by my own experience and have no intentions of trying other lye-made shampoos at this stage of my life.  After all, at my age, why should I?  For me it's just not necessary.


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## penelopejane (Jun 26, 2018)

SoapRiley said:


> Thanks !
> 
> Which makes me wonder what is the true difference between a soap bar and a shampoo bar?



If you make a “shampoo bar” using lye there is no difference. Soap is not suitable for hair.

If you make a shampoo bar from syndets (synthetic detergents ie: not all natural products and therefore not soap) there is a difference. This may not ruin your hair.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/syndet-shampoo-bar-recipe.63410/


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## cmzaha (Jun 26, 2018)

Shampoo is made with surfactants


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## penelopejane (Jun 26, 2018)

cmzaha said:


> Shampoo is made with surfactants



And syndets? Or only surfacants?


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## amd (Jun 26, 2018)

I think syndet and surfactants are the same thing. My understanding of syndets is that it is a combination of surfactants, while surfactants may refer to a single compound.


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## cmzaha (Jun 26, 2018)

Yes, surfactant based bars are called syndet bars. The word syndet is a combination of synthetic and detergent


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## DeeAnna (Jun 26, 2018)

Surfactant -- a chemical that can reduce the surface tension of a liquid. Surfactants include detergents, soaps, wetting agents, emulsifiers, foam producers, and dispersing agents (chemicals that reduce clumping). Soap and detergents are surfactants that can clean, but not all surfactants are cleansers.

Detergent -- a chemical or blend of chemicals that can be used for cleaning. Usually a surfactant or mixture of surfactants. Strictly speaking, soap is not a detergent.


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## SunRiseArts (Jun 27, 2018)

well, I put my FO in the calculator.

I was talking about my experience.  I  won't comment further in the forum.


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