# Palm oil and Shea butter difference?



## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

I have noticed the properties of both these oils/butters are almost exact. Has anyone done a comparison using palm oil in one soap and shea butter in another? Can you tell a difference?
Here's pictures of each oil, showing how similar they are.


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## lizflowers42 (Apr 29, 2013)

Very interesting!  I would think as long as you use a lye calc to make sure you have the appropriate lye amounts for the weight, it would be okay (provided you aren't allergic to Shea!).  You can add salt to your water to increase hardness, and sugar can increase bubbles!


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## new12soap (Apr 29, 2013)

personally I would find it very cost prohibitive to use shea in such high percentages, and not worth it to me for a wash-off product. I would rather put palm in soap for nearly identical characteristics and use shea in a nice leave-on lotion or cream.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 29, 2013)

The numbers you are looking at have their uses, but I would not assume any two fats will produce similar soap, just because the hardness, bubbly, creamy, etc. numbers are somewhat similar. My husband and a body builder might weigh the same, but I suspect it might be inaccurate to decide the two guys are "similar" on the basis of their weights. :grin:

Asking your pardon in advance for trotting out even more numbers, here is more detailed info on these two: 

The NaOH saponification number of Palm is running about 0.144; shea is about 0.131. The iodine number (a measure of polyunsaturation) is 48-58 for palm, 125-145 for shea, indicating shea has more unsaturated fatty acids. My notes show INS values of about 148 for palm and 112 for shea, more or less. All this means palm is going to saponify easier and give a harder, less conditioning bar.

Palmitic (saturated) and oleic (monosaturated) fatty acids predominate in the palm oil. Oleic and stearic (saturated) fatty acids are the main ones in shea. If you are concerned about DOS, both fats should work well, but palm gets the edge due to less polyunsaturation, looking back at the iodine numbers.

I don't have numbers for the unsaponifiable chemicals in the fats, but my understanding is that shea has quite a high % of unsaponifiables, which would add to the skin conditioning properties in a way that's not measured by the "conditioning, bubbly, creamy, etc." numbers.

Just sayin'.  :grin:


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## lizflowers42 (Apr 29, 2013)

new12soap said:


> personally I would find it very cost prohibitive to use shea in such high percentages, and not worth it to me for a wash-off product. I would rather put palm in soap for nearly identical characteristics and use shea in a nice leave-on lotion or cream.



It depends though on the cost if you are looking at sustainable palm oil, it's a little bit of a hot button issue at the moment at how it can be harvested.  Though, that probably could be said for all oils soapers use!


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

lizflowers42 said:


> It depends though on the cost if you are looking at sustainable palm oil, it's a little bit of a hot button issue at the moment at how it can be harvested.  Though, that probably could be said for all oils soapers use!



When pricing oils on WSP, palm oil is really cheap ($2.37/lb) as with shea butter ($7.04/lb) or natural ($9.57/lb).
I'm just trying to develop a bath bar recipe with minimal oils for myself, so I don't have to keep spending $6.00/bar to have nice soap. Currently I use a brand from LEVEL naturals, but it seems absurd to have to use 12 oils for a smooth and moisturizing bar soap.
I have been looking at:
Coconut oil
Palm oil
and Olive oil
for the recipe.
The characteristics I want in the bar are:
A silky and creamy feel with just enough coconut oil to be able to see white lather and for it's cleaning ability. My dilemma is trying to determine if I need to purchase extra oils and what oils to add to this soap.


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## judymoody (Apr 29, 2013)

I find that shea above 10% produces a lot of ashiness in my soap, especially if I don't gel.  Palm does not.

I found your comparison very interesting.  I had no idea that their profiles were so similar.  Thanks for sharing.

Edited to add that my base recipe in descending order is OO, CO, PO, Castor and Cocoa Butter (the latter two at 5% each).  It's a nicely balanced bar of soap and it doesn't cost much to produce.


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## mel z (Apr 29, 2013)

Looking at the ingredient list for one of Level Naturals, it is an all veggie oil soap.

"Saponified Coconut Oil, Saponified Soybean Oil, Saponified Sunflower Seed Oil, Purified Water, Saponified Palm Fruit Oil, Saponified Olive Fruit Oil, Saponified Castor Seed Oil, Saponified Safflower Oil, Saponified Rapeseed Oil, Saponified Shea Butter, Saponified Jojoba, Saponified Cocoa Seed Butter, Saponified Meadowfoam Seed Oil, Chamomile Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Essential Oil, Mineral Pigment, Alkanet Root (Batschia Canescens for Color)"

http://www.drugstore.com/products/p...=goobase_filler&device=c&network=g&matchtype=

So, without having to use all of those, I would suggest OO (cheapest available is fine), CO, and PO. (OO at 50% at least.) However, that said, if you don't mind it not being veggie, lard with some OO is nice, or lard with OO and a bit of CO. No need for all the oils on the planet, lol. You can substitute beef tallow for lard if so desired. The lard or tallow make a nice creamy lather. I've even made 100% tallow that is nice.

Just a suggestion. Shea is nice, but adds density, and is more expensive than the others, does not make lots of bubbles at all. Could add 5% of a more expensive like the shea.


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

mel z said:


> Looking at the ingredient list for one of Level Naturals, it is an all veggie oil soap.
> 
> "Saponified Coconut Oil, Saponified Soybean Oil, Saponified Sunflower Seed Oil, Purified Water, Saponified Palm Fruit Oil, Saponified Olive Fruit Oil, Saponified Castor Seed Oil, Saponified Safflower Oil, Saponified Rapeseed Oil, Saponified Shea Butter, Saponified Jojoba, Saponified Cocoa Seed Butter, Saponified Meadowfoam Seed Oil, Chamomile Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Essential Oil, Mineral Pigment, Alkanet Root (Batschia Canescens for Color)"
> 
> ...



I'd like to stay all veggie. It's just much easier to purchase oils opposed to lard and tallow. I was concerned about moisturization, as prior to using Levels naturals I had dry skin. I'm so glad I got off store bought products. Will the olive oil, alone, have enough conditioning in it?


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## mel z (Apr 29, 2013)

Soapman Ryan said:


> I'd like to stay all veggie. It's just much easier to purchase oils opposed to lard and tallow. I was concerned about moisturization, as prior to using Levels naturals I had dry skin. I'm so glad I got off store bought products. Will the olive oil, alone, have enough conditioning in it?



Maybe not. That Level has a lot of nice, yet expensive oils. OO and add Vitamin E maybe? Won't get the same lather and bubbles though. Let someone with more experience help you with that one.


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

mel z said:


> Maybe not. That Level has a lot of nice, yet expensive oils. OO and add Vitamin E maybe? Won't get the same lather and bubbles though. Let someone with more experience help you with that one.



That's my problem, I'm not sure which oils in their list to buy. My first attempt had 8 oils and I feel it was a dud. Not very many bubbles, nor did it have the silky, creamy feel. After making this batch, I have learned to make much smaller test batches, around 3-4 ounces each.


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## mel z (Apr 29, 2013)

It looks like a very good recipe! 8) But, I notice Coconut is your leading oil, too much coconut can be drying.

I was playing with lots of oils too, then realized I was getting no where fast, and decided to play with the ones I know I like how they feel, and stick with that. I was spending too much $$$ on nice oils. :thumbdown:


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

Forgot to mention: I take two showers a day, so I go through one LEVEL bar in about 14 days.


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## new12soap (Apr 29, 2013)

I do NOT recommend trying to make soap in 3-4oz batches.  Your margin for error goes from very small to non-existent, I hope at the very least you are using a jeweler's scale and measuring to the tenth of a gram. Even with a 1lb batch the margin between 5% superfat and ZERO is less than one-tenth of an ounce!

I do not necessarily agree that vegetable oils are easier to get, lard is available at every grocery store, and suppliers carry both lard and tallow. Animal fats make lovely soap IMO but if you prefer to stay all veggie then that's no problem, there are a lot of ways to get the qualities you are looking for.

Since you asked for feedback about what oils you should use, that really is all about trial and error and personal preference, but it looks to me like you are kind of over-complicating it and maybe trying to reinvent the wheel there. Olive oil and rice bran oil perform very very similarly, you can easily get rid of one or the other.  In fact, have you tried a basic 30/30/30 recipe? Try that using olive, coconut, and palm, then use castor to make up the remaining 10%.  If you are concerned about the coconut oil being too drying, increase your superfat.  You can play with the percentages, of course, if you want to cut back the coconut you can up either or both of the other 2 (I would not go over 10% castor).  If you want to add something more, I would say try using any ONE of the other oils, shea butter _or_ sweet almond _or_ sunflower, and i would start at say 15% of your total recipe. That should be enough when compared to your base recipe to see if you like what it does for the soap.

JM2C  HTH

eta: 20% coconut oil should not be overly drying, but sometimes 2 showers a day can be!


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

new12soap said:


> I do NOT recommend trying to make soap in 3-4oz batches.  Your margin for error goes from very small to non-existent, I hope at the very least you are using a jeweler's scale and measuring to the tenth of a gram. Even with a 1lb batch the margin between 5% superfat and ZERO is less than one-tenth of an ounce!
> 
> I do not necessarily agree that vegetable oils are easier to get, lard is available at every grocery store, and suppliers carry both lard and tallow. Animal fats make lovely soap IMO but if you prefer to stay all veggie then that's no problem, there are a lot of ways to get the qualities you are looking for.
> 
> ...



new12soap,
Thanks for the guidance. I do have a jeweler's scale, that's were I got the idea of smaller batches. I'll purchase basic oils: olive, coconut, palm, castor and one other for conditioning purposes and try a 30/30/30, just to see what the effects are for comparison.


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## melstan775 (Apr 29, 2013)

Shea butter has a lot of fats that cannot saponify, donuts a good superfatting oil. Palm I think saponified most the way through. I have skin irritations and I find shea in soap really helps with that a lot. A lot a lot even. Consider makin your largest percentage of oil in your recipe olive. I have found increasing my olive oil ad reducing palm and coconut make a smoother bar and it still hardens up.


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

melstan775 said:


> Shea butter has a lot of fats that cannot saponify, donuts a good superfatting oil. Palm I think saponified most the way through. I have skin irritations and I find shea in soap really helps with that a lot. A lot a lot even. Consider makin your largest percentage of oil in your recipe olive. I have found increasing my olive oil ad reducing palm and coconut make a smoother bar and it still hardens up.



How low can I go on coconut? Should I use the smallest amount I can get when I plug it into soapcalc, just to get the number at 12 (the minimum number for cleaning)?


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

melstan775,
Since your using shea this may also contribute to why your bars are getting hard. Shea is a very hard oil. Would you share the percentage you use?


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## VanessaP (Apr 29, 2013)

Soapman Ryan said:


> How low can I go on coconut? Should I use the smallest amount I can get when I plug it into soapcalc, just to get the number at 12 (the minimum number for cleaning)?



Cleansing doesn't mean that it will clean better. All soap will clean. The higher the cleansing # just means that it is better at stripping oils. That is why coconut oil is popular for laundry soap.

As long as you are superfatting at 5-7% (I stay at 7% to 9% for regular bars), then 20% coconut oil is perfectly fine, that is not too high unless you're sensitive to it or have more sensitive skin.

Lard is easy to purchase locally - all you have to do is go to the grocery store. In fact, olive oil, coconut oil and lard make one of my favorite soaps, and I can buy all 3 ingredients at Walmart if I need to.


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

VanessaP said:


> Cleansing doesn't mean that it will clean better. All soap will clean. The higher the cleansing # just means that it is better at stripping oils. That is why coconut oil is popular for laundry soap.
> 
> As long as you are superfatting at 5-7% (I stay at 7% to 9% for regular bars), then 20% coconut oil is perfectly fine, that is not too high unless you're sensitive to it or have more sensitive skin.
> 
> Lard is easy to purchase locally - all you have to do is go to the grocery store. In fact, olive oil, coconut oil and lard make one of my favorite soaps, and I can buy all 3 ingredients at Walmart if I need to.



Thanks for letting me know about cleansing. Where would I look for lard at wal-mart, is it in the oil aisle?


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## new12soap (Apr 29, 2013)

Soapman Ryan said:


> How low can I go on coconut? Should I use the smallest amount I can get when I plug it into soapcalc, just to get the number at 12 (the minimum number for cleaning)?


 
You can use zero coconut if you want to.  A 100% olive oil soap will have a cleansing value of 0, so there really is no minimum. This is why the numbers on soapcalc make for a good rough guideline but should not be considered written in stone.  No coconut oil (or palm kernal oil, or babassu) will give you lower cleansing numbers, but it will also give you far less bubbly lather.  If you like a creamy lotion-y lather, then that's fine, but if you want big bubbly lather you need something to give you that boost. As I said, if you want to use coconut oil but you are worried about it being too drying, just up your superfat a bit to compensate.


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## drksoapcompany (Apr 29, 2013)

Profiles are similar, but unfortunately cost is not! Shea Butter for soapmaking is simply not economically feasible, unless you're in Africa (black soap


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## VanessaP (Apr 29, 2013)

Soapman Ryan said:


> Thanks for letting me know about cleansing. Where would I look for lard at wal-mart, is it in the oil aisle?



I have found it both with the cooking oils and in the Mexican food section.


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

Big bubbles aren't that necessary, I like a creamier bar. I did try a 100% olive oil soap that I bought from Whole foods to give this type of bar a try and hated it so much I just threw it away. I seamed to have no lather.


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## Candybee (Apr 29, 2013)

Lard will give you a creamy bar. Also, coconut oil is moisturizing as long as you don't go overboard with it or are allergic or sensitive to it. 20% CO in a recipe gives you nice bubbles. I typically use 25% CO in my recipes.


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## VanessaP (Apr 29, 2013)

Soapman Ryan said:


> Big bubbles aren't that necessary, I like a creamier bar. I did try a 100% olive oil soap that I bought from Whole foods to give this type of bar a try and hated it so much I just threw it away. I seamed to have no lather.



If you like creamy, try 50% lard, 25% olive and 25% coconut at a 7% superfat. That should do plenty well for a creamy bar


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## new12soap (Apr 29, 2013)

Candybee said:


> Lard will give you a creamy bar. Also, coconut oil is moisturizing as long as you don't go overboard with it or are allergic or sensitive to it. 20% CO in a recipe gives you nice bubbles. I typically use 25% CO in my recipes.


 
Plain coconut oil is moisturizing, coconut oil SOAP is very cleansing and can be very drying.  Castor oil is another odd one, by itself it can actually be somewhat drying but once it is transformed into soap becomes very conditioning.


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## VanessaP (Apr 29, 2013)

Candybee said:


> Lard will give you a creamy bar. Also, coconut oil is moisturizing as long as you don't go overboard with it or are allergic or sensitive to it. 20% CO in a recipe gives you nice bubbles. I typically use 25% CO in my recipes.



Coconut oil is not moisturizing in soap. It is one of the oils with the highest cleansing numbers out there. The oil by itself = moisturizing, the oil in soap =/= moisturizing. Even for 100% coconut oil salt bars, the whole reason why there is such a high superfat is to counteract the stripping effect of the coconut.


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## melstan775 (Apr 29, 2013)

Soapman Ryan said:


> melstan775,
> Since your using shea this may also contribute to why your bars are getting hard. Shea is a very hard oil. Would you share the percentage you use?



In my bars it's not the shea that makes them hard. It's the palm. My bars were considerably harder after I added palm to my formula then before.  For shea butter the percentage varies from 5% - 10%.


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## kazmi (Apr 29, 2013)

Ryan since you have a lot of oils, try making your sample batches.  Play around with a couple of different blends and see which one you like best.  Try one with coconut and another with shea.  Try dividing your hard oils in half and do half coconut/half with shea.  Since you are making it for yourself experiment until you find something to works for you.  I agree, 8 oils is overkill.  Since you have them already, experiment with what you have.


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## Soapman Ryan (Apr 29, 2013)

kazmi said:


> Ryan since you have a lot of oils, try making your sample batches.  Play around with a couple of different blends and see which one you like best.  Try one with coconut and another with shea.  Try dividing your hard oils in half and do half coconut/half with shea.  Since you are making it for yourself experiment until you find something to works for you.  I agree, 8 oils is overkill.  Since you have them already, experiment with what you have.



kazami,
I don't have any oils remaining. This is the reason I was looking for more guidance before spending more money on new oils. After making these lasts batches and failing I needed some help narrowing the oils down in my recipe so I'm not spending another arm and a leg on testing. This is another reason I was going to do such small batches. I just threw out 2lbs. of soap.


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## judymoody (Apr 30, 2013)

Ryan, one more bit of advice - I formulate differently for me and my husband.  He needs a higher cleansing number to get rid of his man stink (his words).  So coconut at 30 percent but with 8-10 SF to counteract the drying effect.  He also isn't big on olive oil lather, so I cut that back to less than 40 percent.  Just some thoughts.


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## melstan775 (Apr 30, 2013)

Soapman Ryan said:


> How low can I go on coconut? Should I use the smallest amount I can get when I plug it into soapcalc, just to get the number at 12 (the minimum number for cleaning)?



Sorry I just saw this one. I asked this question not that long ago and some people say as low as 20%, or even lower. Some soaps are made with just pure olive oil, and they get rock hard.


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