# Demystifying Scent Notes



## Mobjack Bay (Oct 23, 2021)

I’m interested in learning more about blending scents.  Sure, I understand what it means when a scent has a citrus note, but how do I get a scent that smells “powdery” and what does it mean if a scent note smells balsamic or like tonka? I found useful information on one supplier‘s website, plus they have a glossary of terms that is useful.  Are there other online sources of information that you find helpful?









						Tonka Bean Absolute
					

Tonka Bean Absolute is sweet rich coumarin vanilla warm nutty caramel aromatic hay chocolate spicy very herbaceous-nutty oriental fougere amber tonka moss woody tobacco coconut milk butter prune plum.




					www.perfumersworld.com
				














						Glossary                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
					






					www.perfumersworld.com


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 23, 2021)

I've seen somewhere™ online a database with an extensive breakdown of EOs into hydrocarbons/alcohols/aldehydes/ketones/esters of linear/cyclic/aromatic mono-/sesqui-/diterpenes. As well as descriptions about the typical scent notes, evaporation speed, oxidation rate/shelf life, chemical resistance, etc. Not quite sure if they included information about non-terpene/terpenoid fragrances (like the coumarin in tonka, vanilla, amber, bergapten, fruit esters, eugenol, estragol …).
But of course stupid me has forgotten where that was, and not saved the link, to be on the safe side.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 23, 2021)

OMG, when you find it again, link it!

ETA: Here’s another site that has a useful definition for “powdery”

Powdery is a word used to describe a fragrance produced by a combination of a heavy, sweet or woody note with a citrus, fruit or light green note.



			- The Perfumed Court


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## glendam (Oct 23, 2021)

For me, musk smells powdery. But I can see it also being a blend of a sweet note and wood note.  I have the musk fragrance formulator from WSP and they describe it as a blend of sandalwood and amber. Tonka makes me think of vanilla (just learned that Tonka beans are banned for cooking?), and because I had a balsam pine fragrance formulator, if I see the word balsamic I imagine wood/pine tree aromas rather than balsamic vinegar, though my mind also goes there.

I listed a few links about essential oils and fragrance blending in this post, it is a very chatty post but you can find the links about halfway through, right above where this is listed:
Top notes 15-25%

Middle notes 30-40%

Base notes 45-55%


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 23, 2021)

Thanks Glenda!  I have a lot of reading to do!

@ResolvableOwl I just bumped into this *pdf* on EO chemistry.


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## cherrybleach (Oct 23, 2021)

Hey! Try the Good Scents Company database (I think this might be what you were remembering @ResolvableOwl ?) - it's a federated database that covers thousands of aromas both natural and synthetic. It's kind of clunky, but there are a couple of places that have created their own search framework using GSC data. I can't remember where they are offhand. I just like the original.

Edit: On second read, @ResolvableOwl , I don't think this is the database you were referring to, but it's a wonderful resource nonetheless.

For learning aromas try the Jean Carles method! You can find a link to an article with the charts for the Jean Carles method here (in first paragraph, look for article shared by Michelle Krell Kydd titled "Exposing the Perfumer", originally published in Perfumer & Flavorists, Vol 32, May 2007).

IIRC some of Jean Carles writings are linked to by the PerfumersWorld website you cited. They are indispensible if you want to learn more about aromas and perfume creation. IIRC also, they also link to some articles by Ed Roudnitska which are also *extremely useful. 

Edit: My bad, they are located on the PerfumersApprentice website. Here's a link to the links for "The Method of Jean Carles" parts 1-3. I can't recall where I found the Roudnitska articles, but do look up his writings. He's lovely.

If you want to go deeper about the history of the development and use of synthetic aromachemicals, including descriptions, check out "Perfumery: Evolution of its techniques," parts 1-6 by Arcadio Boix Camps, pub 1985-1999. You can find all of the parts on the Perfumer and Flavorists website, here is a link to part 1.

"Perfumery: its manufacture and use," (Morfit, 1852), chapter 5, "The Raw Materials" is old-fashioned in scope but contains some useful descriptions of aromas. You can find it at the internet archive. Or just used this link.

Also check out "Perfume and Flavor Materials of Natural Origin" by Steffen Arctander (Orchard Innovations, 1960). There are bootleg copies out there on the web that are easily findable. It offers aroma descriptions and explanations of the origins and processes used to extract hundreds of natural aromas.

I have a bunch more sources but don't want to overwhelm anyone.  These were nice for me for learning the basics. Also the Basenotes forum for independent perfume creators is a good resource, just be make sure you've done your research before asking a question. They can be vicious! (in a good way).

Edit: grammar


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 23, 2021)

Thanks! @cherrybleach.  I think I know what I’ll be doing over the winter break this year.  As it turns out, i got started down this rabbit hole by following a link on the Basenotes forum.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 23, 2021)

glendam said:


> (just learned that Tonka beans are banned for cooking?)


Yes, that's truly annoying. Coumarine is not harmless, yes, but christmas biscuits without tonka beans or cassia? No, that's out of question. I'd have greatest respect for the EOs though.


glendam said:


> Top notes 15-25%
> 
> Middle notes 30-40%
> 
> Base notes 45-55%


That somewhat reads like the well-tried 3-6-1 rule just upside down? I've found base notes (vetiver, cedarwood, juniper) already somewhat overpowering at >15%, can't really imagine to use three or four times of them.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 23, 2021)

Tonka beans for cooking?  The internet says it has been banned in the US since the 1950s.


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## glendam (Oct 23, 2021)

@ResolvableOwl I have never used vetiver but I read that it is really strong, whoever I was reading had said to just dip a toothpick on it and use that to add to the blend (must have been a perfume blend).
I do not follow that suggested percentage rule all the time either.  If I want the citrus to be strong especially, I might reverse that.  But I suppose in a perfume, where the top notes will be the first ones to go, it would make sense.

@Mobjack Bay I read that the FDA did a movie like capture of tonka beans at a restaurant where a chef was still using them


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## Arimara (Oct 24, 2021)

@Mobjack Bay You just HAD to open up this rabbit hole.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 24, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Tonka beans for cooking? The internet says it has been banned in the US since the 1950s.


How this? The WWW was only invented in 1989.



Mobjack Bay said:


> @ResolvableOwl I just bumped into this *pdf* on EO chemistry.


Wow. This will keep me busy for a while . The content is quite similar to what I had been referring to (just that it's a book, not a website), and is even much more exhaustive in several aspects. I've saved it, in case Dōterra decides to no longer provide it at some time.

In general, quite some hot sources from you and @cherrybleach ! The one thing I'm not entirely sure about is: As established and exhaustive _perfume_ theory is, my impression is that it doesn't _entirely_ match all the needs of soapmaking/not necessarily put the focus on the same things. I don't need an elaborate fragrance pyramid with solvent blends, fixatives, and base note accords sticking on my washed hands for one whole day or longer. On the other hand, a perfumer rarely has to care about lye stability and keeping an olfactory balance over months in an aerated, alkaline environment.
Knowing about perfumers' craftsmanship is highly valuable without doubt, but it's not the very last word when it comes to compose soap scents. We can profit a lot from them, but we have to keep in mind that it's to some degree a misuse of this knowledge, more an orientation than laws.

@glendam Hmm yes, the legendary toothpick. Vetiver really is a beast. Another reason is that it's very thick (think of castor oil), and drip bottles just don't make sense for it. Then, it is a really “slow” scent that is hardly noticeable in the beginning, but will stick around for a _very_ long time – it's so easy to overdose when composing a scent by “following the nose”.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 24, 2021)

cherrybleach said:


> Hey! Try the Good Scents Company database


OT: Can someone please help me out why on earth (and beyond) they're linking NASA's Mars weather report on this site?


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 24, 2021)

Any chemical alteration of the EO aside, I once tried to figure out if there as an actual explanation for the “anchoring” idea. I started scouring the perfumery discussions for anything related.  Perfumers touch on partial pressures and what happens in a headspace when discussing how perfumes age. At the least, it’s a starting place for understanding why eo fragranced soaps stored in closed cardboard boxes retain scent longer compared with soap left out in the open. A physical chemist friend, now gone, used Kow and Henry’s Law constant to predict the movement of organic pollutants between air and water. Until I retire, I will never have enough time to explore how/if that helps to explain what sticks and what doesn’t. Then there’s the chemical structure and reactivity of eos. Maybe the DoTerra pdf will make it easier to assimilate some of that vast body of information. Or, maybe someone else with a good chemistry background will get interested enough to dive in 

ETA: after a few hours of reading skimming the useful resources linked above, my online search efforts have been greatly improved.  With clary sage on my mind (in a different thread), I learned that its unique scent is due to the diterpene *sclareol*.  Like lavender, the EO is mostly linalyl-acetate and linalool, but with a special something.


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## ScentimentallyYours (Oct 24, 2021)

I have a book purchased in 2002 with good information, *The Chemistry of Fragrances* by Pybus and Snell. I believe e-books are available through Google, but I like having a paper Book to thumb through and highlight. Information on personal care products, including soaps and detergents, is included in one chapter.





						The Chemistry of Fragrances (RSC Paperbacks): Pybus, D.H., Sell, C.S.: 9780854045280: Amazon.com: Books
					

The Chemistry of Fragrances (RSC Paperbacks) [Pybus, D.H., Sell, C.S.] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. The Chemistry of Fragrances (RSC Paperbacks)



					www.amazon.com


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## cherrybleach (Oct 24, 2021)

@Mobjack Bay I came over here from Basenotes as well  Wanted desperately to become an independent natural perfumer but rose, sandalwood, jasmine are so fundamental to scent creation and SO EXPENSIVE, so started doing soap because of its propensity for cheaper essential oils.

To speak to the points re: soap and perfume raised by @ResolvableOwl and @Mobjack Bay, I found and attached a page in "An Introduction to Perfumery" by Tony Curtis and David G Williams 2nd ed, 2001 (someone told me this was the textbook they use in Grasse but don't quote me on that) - one of the 4-5 pages dedicated to soap in the whole book (!) that touches briefly on the issues with aromachemicals and their diffusion, discoloration, and degradation in soap.

I have yet to come across a really good resource for the intersection of soap and perfume. The soap books talk about perfume for a couple of pages, while the perfume books talk about soap for a couple of pages. We need depth, people!

I also dug around and found my copy of "Perfume" by William I Kaufman, 1974, which has a set of the Jean Carles charts and I am attaching them to this msg as well, tho they are slightly updated from the ones I linked to above. These charts are more granular. Truthfully I prefer the earlier charts as they are more concise, but the method is the same. The vertical columns are studies in contrast, and the horizontal rows are studies in similarities. Apologies for harping on the charts, but I did the natural materials study (thanks libertynatural.com) a few years ago and it _changed my life _lol. Have been slowly collecting the synthetic aromachemicals (thanks creatingperfume.com) and hope to start that study soon.

Regarding fixative EOs for soapmaking, I've had the best luck with Atlas cedar, clary sage, patchouli, benzoin, and ylang-ylang (canaga, which IIRC comes from the last presses of ylang-ylang is a standard fragrance material for soapmaking).

The top/middle/base pyramid can get all turned around in soap. Like the citrus notes are top notes in perfumery but in soap orange stays forever, lemon has so-so sticking power, and Bergamot .. forget about it!

Tried for a while to find a nice rosemary-mint blend where the rosemary doesn't disappear completely, one day I threw some Atlas Cedar in there and voila! The rosemary stuck around. I've since found Atlas Cedar to be an unobtrusive all-around fixative for me when I do herbaceous/agrestic blends. I don't have to be too careful with % and it's cheaper than clary sage. But clary sage is lovely, and sometimes you really need it.

Meanwhile ylang-ylang and geranium are considered middle notes in perfumery but for me in soap they have fixative properties and can stick like hell. I've also had good luck with lavandin, classified as a top/mid-note, but it sticks much better than lavender and seems to act as a mild fixative for lemon.

Sometimes I'll use a FO like WSP's Sandalwood and blend it with EOs. Am hoping to someday stumble upon an original FO/EO blend that packs a punch.

What have you guys discovered to work for you as fixatives? Have you found upon any EO or FO/EO blends that really work for you or do not work for you in soap?

Edit: @ScentimentallyYours that book looks so good. Thank you for the link. Buying it now...


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 24, 2021)

*R A B B I T  H O L E*

Annoyed by contradictions about things like scent strength, longevity, or ranking into the pyramid scheme. But your points & sources suggest that it's really not that easy, but a fundamental problem. I'm glad that it's not my fault (nor necessarily of the manufacturer) that some EO behaves differently than sources from a foreign discipline might suggest. And, of course some clever people have already been that far & further, you just have to know where to look.

100% agree with your


cherrybleach said:


> We need depth, people!



An important recurrent entry point for me is




__





						Longest lasting EOs
					

I made an oatmeal soap with star anise and 10-fold orange - and I love it!! Not sure how long the orange is going to last, but for the meantime I'm enjoying it. In fact, I regularly share soap with friends and family, but I'm keeping these for myself. :p




					www.soapmakingforum.com
				



to profit from the patient diligence of some SMF members, to bridge the gap between immediate scent and development over curing time.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 26, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I’m interested in learning more about blending scents.  Sure, I understand what it means when a scent has a citrus note, but how do I get a scent that smells “powdery” and what does it mean if a scent note smells balsamic or like tonka? I found useful information on one supplier‘s website, plus they have a glossary of terms that is useful.  Are there other online sources of information that you find helpful?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I gotta try Tonka Bean... this sounds amazing. on amazon 3-4 whole beans are around 12.00 bucks.  Now i'm looking into an absolute which is ready to use.  Hmm decisions decisions .


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 26, 2021)

glendam said:


> @ResolvableOwl I have never used vetiver but I read that it is really strong, whoever I was reading had said to just dip a toothpick on it and use that to add to the blend (must have been a perfume blend).
> I do not follow that suggested percentage rule all the time either.  If I want the citrus to be strong especially, I might reverse that.  But I suppose in a perfume, where the top notes will be the first ones to go, it would make sense.
> 
> @Mobjack Bay I read that the FDA did a movie like capture of tonka beans at a restaurant where a chef was still using them


I to read that article of the chef & use of "Tonka Beans" .  Interesting enough US needs to re-classify the use of Tonka Beans.  Theirs some interesting possible propaganda in regards to banning this wonderful magical bean.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 29, 2021)

This *Lebermuth EO reference* document was mentioned recently by @ScentimentallyYours in another thread.  It doesn’t give a breakdown of the oil constituents, but the odor/scent descriptions for the ~100 EOs included are useful.  On the upside/downside, there are also pretty color photos of the source material.  Does anyone know of a list like this in table form?


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## Johnez (Nov 9, 2021)

So many PDFs to download and links to bookmark-amazing contributions in here.

Mobjack, I always wondered about "powdery" descriptions, as well as what constitutes "aquatic." I'm glad nobody has taken the note to my real life understanding of "aquatic" which would be diesel, fish guts, Coca Cola, and barf lol!


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## Vicki C (Nov 9, 2021)

I have always assumed that “powdery“ smells like baby powder, a total turn off for me.
Re clary sage I have been growing it in my garden for a few years - I love the smell which is strong on the flower stalks but some people find it off-putting. Not exactly like the EO - better IMO. Same with rosemary, the EO always smells way too camphory to me, but fresh smells wonderful.
Lots of great resources here can’t wait to dive in.


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## earlene (Nov 9, 2021)

Johnez said:


> So many PDFs to download and links to bookmark-amazing contributions in here.
> 
> Mobjack, I always wondered about "powdery" descriptions, as well as what constitutes "aquatic." I'm glad nobody has taken the note to my real life understanding of "aquatic" which would be diesel, fish guts, Coca Cola, and barf lol!


Having lived near the ocean for over 50 years, I have to say that's an interesting understanding of an aquatic smell!

For me, the smell of ocean in the air is distinctly pleasant, especially when I get close to areas where the seaweed washes ashore.  Further from the shore, it's simply the salt-sea air.

But diesel?  You must have spent some time on a ship or boat with a diesel engine to equate aquatic with that and barf?  I took a fishing trip in Mexico once on a diesel boat, several days of smelling diesel all hours of the day & night. (yuk to the diesel) I get that description (except maybe the Coca Cola part of it), but it was an anomaly in my over-all experience with oceans.

"Powdery" to me is a bit along the lines of baby powder, which is somewhat reminiscent of clean baby butts and freshly washed diapers.  Perhaps for a man who didn't change a lot of diapers or use baby powder when doing so, talcum powder might be a better association to the powder scent word.  How many men still use talcum powder?  I don't even know.


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## Johnez (Nov 9, 2021)

earlene said:


> Having lived near the ocean for over 50 years, I have to say that's an interesting understanding of an aquatic smell!
> 
> For me, the smell of ocean in the air is distinctly pleasant, especially when I get close to areas where the seaweed washes ashore.  Further from the shore, it's simply the salt-sea air.
> 
> ...


Yep you've called it-fishing boat heh. I've lived in Southern California most my life and have been to most beaches up and down Orange and Los Angeles counties. Now that I'm the furthest away one might be from a beach I'm sure I'd appreciate em a bit more should I make my way back. Funny enough many of the smells I've associated with the various beaches aren't traditionally "beachy" either, burning wood (bonfires), cooking food (churros, hot dogs, etc), marijuana (Venice beach lol) off the top of my head.


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## Mobjack Bay (Nov 9, 2021)

Below is the text from the Fixative section of the book by Arctander, which was brought to our attention earlier in this thread by @cherrybleach .  Very helpful!  

"Fixatives.
In perfumery, a Fixative literally means a material which slows down the rate of evaporation of the more volatile materials in a perfume composition. There are several types of fixative (alsocalled “fixers”):
1) The true fixatives:
These are materials which retard the evaporation of the other components of the perfume by distinct physical effect. Their effect is that of an adsorption due to the high-molecular structure of the fixative. A typical example of a natural fixative in this group is benzoin.
2) The “arbitrary” fixatives:
These are odorous substances which lend a particular note to the perfume throughout all stages of evaporation. But they do not significantly influence the evaporation of other perfume materials in the composition. A typical example of a natural “arbitrary”fixative is oakmoss.
3) The exalting fixatives:
These materials act as “odor carriers” and often act also as synergists by improving,fortifying or transporting the vapors of the other perfume materials in thecomposition. The exalting fixatives may also lend a highly appreciated “wearability” toa perfume, a combination of diffusive effect and retention of the full fragrance of the perfume, slowly exhaled from the human skin to which it has been applied. Although the effect of these fixatives may be considered a physical one, it is inconceivable that the effect is due to an increase in the boiling point of, the total perfume composition. The effect of these fixatives is often obtained through the addition of mere traces with respect to quantity. Typical exalting fixatives are musk and civet.
4) The so-called fixatives:
These are odorless or almost odorless crystalline materials or viscous liquids. They are high-boiling materials, and their effect is a physical one, caused by simple increase of the boiling point of the perfume composition. Their odor, if they have any, plays a minor role. Their action is merely a stabilizing one which paralyzes the odor of the low-boiling materials. In a way they “steal” effect from the perfume, but they also conceal minor errors, misbalance or “rough corners” in the perfume. A surprisingly large number of “fixatives” from perfumery literature belong to this group. From a perfumer’s standpoint, such additions represent a direct loss of fragrance which, inturn, is an economical loss. A typical natural fixative in group #4 is amyris oil.

One perfume material can belong to one or several of the above groups of fixatives. A true physical fixation in terms of a decreased vapor pressure can never be obtained through the addition of fractions of one percent of a certain material, even if the material conforms to the specifications of group #1 of the above list."


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## ResolvableOwl (Nov 9, 2021)

Good find. I wonder how point 4 applies to soap. It is definitely more than “fractions of one percent” to have a soap bar consisting of about 80% soap in the narrower sense, and 20% of a complicated glycerol/residual moisture/salt phase…
In my imagination, soap gel does exactly group 4 action: it ties with the scent molecules to lower their vapour pressure.
But it's certainly more complicated than this, because the porosity of soap also alters the evaporation rate, and, more importantly, the olfactory contact time to perfume is hours…days, whereas in soap it's seconds…minutes BUT with very little mobile phase & months of cure/air contact beforehand.


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## Mobjack Bay (Nov 9, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Good find. I wonder how point 4 applies to soap. It is definitely more than “fractions of one percent” to have a soap bar consisting of about 80% soap in the narrower sense, and 20% of a complicated glycerol/residual moisture/salt phase…
> In my imagination, soap gel does exactly group 4 action: it ties with the scent molecules to lower their vapour pressure.
> But it's certainly more complicated than this, because the porosity of soap also alters the evaporation rate, and, more importantly, the olfactory contact time to perfume is hours…days, whereas in soap it's seconds…minutes BUT with very little mobile phase & months of cure/air contact beforehand.



If the soap matrix is important, how do we explain the rapid loss of citrus eos In soap?  What do you mean by “ties with the scent molecules”?


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## ResolvableOwl (Nov 9, 2021)

Isn't the issue with citrus EOs that it's specifically the limonene that doesn't properly get tied by the soap into the crystalline matrix, but evaporates quickly? Or was it alkali-mediated (per)oxidation/polymerisation? Sorry, I can't remember if I had read this somewhere, or I'm just making this up right now. Too late for thorough literature research rn.


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## Mobjack Bay (Nov 9, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Isn't the issue with citrus EOs that it's specifically the limonene that doesn't properly get tied by the soap into the crystalline matrix, but evaporates quickly? Or was it alkali-mediated (per)oxidation/polymerisation? Sorry, I can't remember if I had read this somewhere, or I'm just making this up right now. Too late for thorough literature research rn.


Unfortunately, you can’t expect much help from me until I retire and take an organic chemistry class again.


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