# Why does my soap leave a rancid smell behind???



## welder (Jan 1, 2009)

Hi everyone.

About a week ago, I made my first two batches of soap.

The first batch was HP and was a failure.   I was too excited and cooked it to death.   I think my wife threw it in the garbage a few days ago.

The second batch was much nicer.  It looked good, smelled normal and lathered up well when I tested it.

The second batch was made with 100% brand new palm kernel oil.   I know that adding other oils would have resulted in a much more well rounded bar of soap, but I was trying to simulate a soap that I plan to make in Africa.   Palm kernel oil is the cheapest oil in Ghana, and I'm trying to make cheap laundry soap, not luxury skin soap.

The problem is, my soap leaves a horribly rancid after smell like cat puke or something gross like that!

Does anyone here have any idea why my soap looks good, smells good, lathers well, but leaves a horrible rancid smell behind after washing???


Oh, I almost forgot:

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!


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## Cattleyabubbles (Jan 1, 2009)

*Palm Kernel Oil has a lot of monounsaturated fat.  :? I'm certain Ghanaians use more than Palm Kernel Oil to wash their clothes with, not meaning to burst your bubble.*


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## welder (Jan 1, 2009)

Does monounsaturated fat make stinky lather, or were you referring to the nutritional effects of palm kernel oil on cardiovascular health?

(BTW, good pun on the bursting bubble thing)


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## Cattleyabubbles (Jan 1, 2009)

what I'm saying is-properly your soap has alot of oil that wasn't saporified; that's why it has rancid smell...


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## welder (Jan 1, 2009)

So, does this mean that monounsaturated fats don't saponify?

The stuff traced very easilly, so I had thought it saponified fairly completely.    When trace occurred, it looked like very thick dairy cream, almost like a bit of flour had been added to thicken it a bit.

I guess if monounsaturated fats don't saponify, then it doesn't really matter how trace looks.

Because I had read that palm kernel oil can dry peoples skin, I superfatted it at 8%.  The bars turned out to have a very greast texture, but aside from the horrible after smell, the soap seems to clean reasonably well.

After having sat for a week, the bars seem a little less greasy now.


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## surf girl (Jan 1, 2009)

Cattleyabubbles said:
			
		

> *Palm Kernel Oil has a lot of monounsaturated fat.  :? I'm certain Ghanaians use more than Palm Kernel Oil to wash their clothes with, not meaning to burst your bubble.*





			
				Cattleyabubbles said:
			
		

> what I'm saying is-properly your soap has alot of oil that wasn't saporified; that's why it has rancid smell...



Can you explain a bit more about what you mean?  To my understanding, palm kernel oil is high in saturated fat (around 82%) - is that what you meant? This would make it more like animal fats.  linky: http://www.palmoil.com/index.php?q=D1VT ... 9WBAAOBw==


I also don't understand what you meant about unsaponifiables in relation to the monounsaturated fats.  Olive oil is high in monounsaturated oleic acid (around 70% on average is what I've read)... by your argument, it would be largely unsaponified... Or am I misunderstanding you?

Thank you.


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## carebear (Jan 1, 2009)

I'd like to understand as well.

I have soaped 100% PKO without issue.  Even if it was lacking in lye and thus had a large amount of excess oil it wouldn't go rancid in a couple of weeks (possibly not ever, PKO is very stable).

8% is not high for this soap - really should be fine.   how much water did you use?  by this I mean - what lye concentration?

BTW - you can make a lovely body bar with 75% PKO and 25% palm oil.  I use a 10% lye discount on this recipe without any rancidity ever.  If you can use milk in place of water it will be even better.


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## Lindy (Jan 1, 2009)

Welder - how about making another batch - unscented and just a small test batch - to see if this repeats.  I would also try a different batch of the oil to see if it's just the oil that you used in this batch?  I don't work with Palm Oil so I can't tell you anything about it, but I hope this helps anyways.

Cheers
Lindy


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## ChrissyB (Jan 2, 2009)

What did you use as a mould?
One of my very first batches that I made smelt just awful, so bad that I couldn't go near it without the need to gag. I just could not figure out what was wrong with it, then I figured out that the mould I had used had aluminium in it and it reacted with the lye and smelt just absolutely awful.
Learnt that lesson the hard way!! Now it is forever imprinted in my brain.


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## welder (Jan 2, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> I'd like to understand as well.
> 
> I have soaped 100% PKO without issue.  Even if it was lacking in lye and thus had a large amount of excess oil it wouldn't go rancid in a couple of weeks (possibly not ever, PKO is very stable).
> 
> ...





Excellent info Carebear!

I'll try that  75/25 body bar recipe.

Thanx!


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## welder (Jan 2, 2009)

Lindy said:
			
		

> Welder - how about making another batch - unscented and just a small test batch - to see if this repeats.  I would also try a different batch of the oil to see if it's just the oil that you used in this batch?  I don't work with Palm Oil so I can't tell you anything about it, but I hope this helps anyways.
> 
> Cheers
> Lindy




Hi Lindy.

Yes, I certainly plan to try another batch soon.

The only ingredients in my last batch were lye, PKO, and distilled water.


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## welder (Jan 2, 2009)

ChrissyB said:
			
		

> What did you use as a mould?
> One of my very first batches that I made smelt just awful, so bad that I couldn't go near it without the need to gag. I just could not figure out what was wrong with it, then I figured out that the mould I had used had aluminium in it and it reacted with the lye and smelt just absolutely awful.
> Learnt that lesson the hard way!! Now it is forever imprinted in my brain.



Hi Chrissy.

Yes, I also had suspected that perhaps it is/was my mold that left the nasty stench on my skin. 

The mold was one of my wifes silicone muffin pans. (no I never stole it-she gave it over willingly LOL)

Perhaps I'll try lining the same muffin pan with plastic wrap next time...


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## Cattleyabubbles (Jan 2, 2009)

Using too much oil when your superfattening your soap, that hasn't chemically combine with the lye, will turn rancid, or it could be your mold as someone has mention, since your wife use to use that for making muffins but what do i know and beside Ghanaians use Surf or other detergents (those that they can afford to purchase) to wash their clothes with (I ask a friend)...

Look at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for Palm Kernel Oil and it should tell you what amount of the Palm Kernel Oil is Unsaponifiables.   my apologizes my bad spelling is confusing everybody.

Here check this link Oil Properties it better explains what I'm trying to say.


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## digit (Jan 2, 2009)

Lindy said:
			
		

> Welder - how about making another batch - unscented and just a small test batch - to see if this repeats.  I would also try a different batch of the oil to see if it's just the oil that you used in this batch?


That's what I would do, in a different mold. Eliminates the possibility of a bad batch of oil. Gotta love troubleshooting. 

....and just for you Cattleyabubbles ---> 

 Just teasing you. 



Digit


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## carebear (Jan 2, 2009)

Cattleyabubbles said:
			
		

> Using too much oil when your superfattening your soap, that hasn't chemically combine with the lye, will turn rancid,


If you mean unsaponified (un-reacted) oils then it's not "will turn rancid" it's "can" and it takes a significant amount of time - as in months.  And if it does go rancid then assuming his soap is fairly light colored he would see bright orange dots of rancidity.  His oil is a particularly stable one so even with a year and adverse conditions I'd not expect much trouble.


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## surf girl (Jan 2, 2009)

Cattleyabubbles, I'm still not sure about the unsaponifiables (and I think your spelling is just fine   ).  I'm not an expert by any means, but I did a ton of reading before embarking on this soap making adventure.  From what I can see on summaries of oil properties, avocado oil, Shea butter, and olive pomace oil tend to have high levels of unsaponifiables.  I couldn't find any references to PKO being high in unsaponifiables.  I'm keen to hear what welder identifies as his stinky source, though!


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## topcat (Jan 2, 2009)

Hi welder - I have not soaped with PKO so cannot help with actual advice :wink: 

What I would like to do is ask a few questions to get you thinking....it's your soap and you know it best  ....

*Did you HP or CP this one?
*How old is it and might the rancid washing smell fade over a longer cure time?
*How about using an EO or FO next time?  BTW- are EOs available in Ghana?
*Is the lye you used the correct one for soaping?  You're not using drain cleaner are you? :shock:   If it has any other ingredients it may not be suitable for soaping.

Now can anyone else think of something to add to get welder brainstorming on this one???

Tanya


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## mamaT (Jan 2, 2009)

Could there have been something in the water?


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## carebear (Jan 2, 2009)

I agree that it could be the mold.  let us know if you make another batch in something different.


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## Cattleyabubbles (Jan 3, 2009)

digit said:
			
		

> Lindy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Digit you had too much entirely to drank for the New Year.  And yes I kann spellllll


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## Cattleyabubbles (Jan 3, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> Cattleyabubbles said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's what I've been trying to say all along. Let me go back to drawing board on this one. *scratching head and thinking*


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## welder (Jan 3, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> Cattleyabubbles said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good observation Carebear.

What I thought was that maybe the PKO was already rancid at purchase, but it doesn't seem to smell rancid?!

What's also confusing is that the soap bers smell fine too?!?!

The water is distilled from a grocer, so no issue there.

It's likely the used mold. I bought a new one to try out.

Will report on that when I test it.


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## welder (Jan 3, 2009)

topcat said:
			
		

> Hi welder - I have not soaped with PKO so cannot help with actual advice :wink:
> 
> What I would like to do is ask a few questions to get you thinking....it's your soap and you know it best  ....
> 
> ...



For ease, I posted my replies embedded in your quote, Tanya. Hope you don't mind.


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## carebear (Jan 3, 2009)

yeeeeah neem will cover almost any scent.  but you will be left with the scent of neem...

now I love the smell of neem, but I'm not sure I'd want to smell OF neem if you get my drift.  it smells yummy to me - like an Indian restaurant.

I don't know if the scent would stick to the person or not - I use it in my acne soap but at very low levels and actually tend to use its cousin karanja instead.


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## welder (Jan 4, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> I don't know if the scent would stick to the person or not - I use it in my acne soap but at very low levels and actually tend to use its cousin karanja instead.



Thanks Carebear.

I think I've read somewhere that Karanja is mellower than neem. Is that right?


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## carebear (Jan 4, 2009)

yes it is much milder


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## welder (Jan 14, 2009)

UPDATE

Okay, I found out the source of the rancid after-smell my PKO soap was leaving behind:

The PKO was stale.

It was very difficult for me to determine this, but I finally figured it out when I was melting some PKO for a 3rd batch from the same gallon bucket that I had made the other two batches from.  

I had put the PKO on the stove to melt & ran out onto the sundeck to dump the lye into the water. When I finished stirring up the lyewater, I came back inside & went to get the PKO off the stove to mix the lyewater into the oil.

As I approached the stove, I noticed the same nasty rancid smell like cat puke hanging in the kitchen air. I sniffed at the PKO in the pot & sure enough, the smell was much stronger near the oil itself.

I remember when the salesman sold me that [email protected], he very quickly rushed over his standard line about how his oils are all "descented, hydrogenated & stabilised" or something like that.  Now I know he wasn't rushing over that part because he was in a hurry to get back to work. He was lying quickly subconsciously. 

I bet they bought a huge wholesale order of this putrid oil in order to secure extremely low pricing & can't get their supplier to refund the stuff, so they're selling it to soapers hoping that nobody will blend it with other oils in high concentrations.  Maybe it actually was fresh when the bought it, but because the bought too much, the tail end is gone bad.

The guy told me that anything over 10-15% PKO in a soap may cause dry skin. Someone here told me that a good hand soap can be made with 75% PKO & 25% palm oil, so I think the guy was just trying to prevent me from discovering that their oil is rancid.

I think I've read somewhere reputable that PKO can actually dry skin in higher concentrations, but I think superfatting should prevent that.

This is all just speculation on my part that they already know about the oil being bad. They move a lot of soapmaking feedstock & soaping hardware, so I think they know what's up.

It is possible that they've never blended their PKO in high enough concentrations to notice the after-smell, but the place smells like a perfumery so I think they're covering up the rancidity hanging in the air.


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## Rhysid (Jun 18, 2021)

welder said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> About a week ago, I made my first two batches of soap.
> 
> ...



I know this is an old post but this is the only lead I’ve found. Any soap containing palm kernel oil also leaves my skin stinking - shower gel, bar soap… everything.
I think it’s a reaction with a pheromone or something in my skin - similar to how perfumes or colognes smell different from person to person - it’s probably the most dreadful smell I’ve ever smelled.


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