# ACK! NDA's new $100 minimum order policy!



## paillo (Jan 11, 2014)

My favorite supplier, sob sob, going to a minimum order policy of $100 or $20 small order fee for anything under $100 as of Feb 4.  I'd seen the policy change mentioned, but just read it. This really hurts :thumbdown:


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## Hazel (Jan 11, 2014)

Well crapadoodle! My orders are always small. I guess I won't be ordering from NDA anymore. :cry:


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## TVivian (Jan 11, 2014)

Well that's a huge bummer. Was about to start making them my regular supply co.


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## eyeroll (Jan 11, 2014)

That's lousy. I am sure it's financial (economies of scale, blah blah) but in my opinion that's a poor business practice and makes it seem that you don't value your small customers.


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## CaraCara (Jan 11, 2014)

Agreed on the poor practice.  I could see a $50.00 minimum, as most probably order around that threshold to make the shipping charges worthwhile (I do, anyway), but $100.00 is deliberately weeding out the small clients. Must be cutbacks in their pick-and-pack operations because the $20.00 penalty is ridiculous. Fingers crossed that Saffire Blue won't follow suit.


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## Hazel (Jan 11, 2014)

CaraCara said:


> I could see a $50.00 minimum,



I understand the economics of streamlining order fulfillment so I can accept a minimum order amount. I think $50 would be acceptable as CaraCara mentioned. But $100 or a $20 "administration" fee? I think she's right in stating it's a way to weed out small customers. 

Money is tight and I don't have a lot of disposable income for supplies. I guess I'd better place an order before Feb. 3.


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## paillo (Jan 11, 2014)

I wrote them to express my concern about small customers and to suggest a $50 minimum order with a maybe $7 smaller order fee. I think it's just too huge a jump for a superlative company that's always been great about customer service. I, too, understand the economics of scale and administration, but this just seems like a really bad business idea. Hopefully I'll get a response...


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## pamielynn (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh snap! I didn't see that either. I like their products, but their shipping to me is so slow, so I don't order much from them either. Maybe I'll send them a little note as well.

ETA: just sent them a note. They'll probably say that I usually order over $100, but that's not the point.


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 12, 2014)

Most of my ordering has been via NDA, however, I've switched to Canwax or Saffire Blue for my recent orders.  Better shipping costs and more interesting fragrance oil scents, plus better selection of additives & botanicals. It would be rare for me to make an order of less than $100, however, that being said, I don't want to be penalized if I do. BTW, Canwax has really good turnaround time. Saffire Blue is slower so I have to keep that in mind when I'm running low on something.


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## lsg (Jan 12, 2014)

Those of you in Canada might give http://www.voyageursoapandcandle.com/Candle_Making_s/110.htm  a try.


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 12, 2014)

lsg said:


> Those of you in Canada might give http://www.voyageursoapandcandle.com/Candle_Making_s/110.htm  a try.



I've used Voyageur a few times but their inventory is limited. They're great about charging exactly what the shipping is and their customer service is really good. Canada Poste parcel post takes a while to get here.


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## pamielynn (Jan 12, 2014)

lsg said:


> Those of you in Canada might give http://www.voyageursoapandcandle.com/Candle_Making_s/110.htm  a try.



I tried them out awhile ago and got some of the nicest calendula infused OO from them - and I didn't have to do it myself. Their customer service is great too. I need to go buy something else from them


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 12, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> I tried them out awhile ago and got some of the nicest calendula infused OO from them - and I didn't have to do it myself. Their customer service is great too. I need to go buy something else from them



I'll take a look, since I'm gearing up for summer and have time for long distance shipping.


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## Lindy (Jan 12, 2014)

I quite like Voyageur.  Between them & NDA I'm mostly covered.  Since my orders are usually in the area of $100 I'm okay and if I'm short on the order then I just wait until I'm low on something else to make up the hundred bucks.


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## ca_soap (Jan 12, 2014)

They just effectively turned away any new customers.  I have never used NDA but let's be honest, most soapers are not big operations and if they have never tried their products they aren't going to order $100 of merchandise to "sample" their quality especially with so many other suppliers online and just a mouse click away.


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## Neve (Jan 13, 2014)

Kitten Love??? They are my main supplier because they seem to be cheaper for the stuff I get. I've tried Voyageur and I don't really like their products, and they are more expensive. This sucks- I hope they get a lot of complaints and change their mind. Shipping is $20 minimum so if I order $90 of stuff like my last order I'd really be penalized.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 13, 2014)

It's madness - they should be able to send 1 product to a customer and make a profit on it.  Cost of the product plus post and packaging takes care of the time involved.  The economy of scale means that you can reduce the packing costs (maybe not the shipping, but certainly the packing costs) for the larger orders.

Doing it this way is just really a slap in the face for smaller customers.

Those people who sell soap might well be able to back me up - you price so that you make a profit on 1 soap, packed and sent out.  If someone orders more, great stuff!  If it's just 1 soap, you don't lose money on it.

So why are they doing this?  :crazy:


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## pamielynn (Jan 13, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> So why are they doing this?  :crazy:



Getting greedy? Really makes me mad. So many suppliers are beginning to do this. Maybe I should try it - minimum order of 10 bars of soap? Crazy.

I think their shipping is already high, too. Placed an order yesterday and it won't ship until the 24th of January. Please - will find other sources for their products.


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 13, 2014)

The problem with Voyageur is the time it takes to ship across country, not their products. I took a look yesterday and will order a couple of their fragrance bundles. The problem with NDA's new policy, as it applies to Canada, is we don't have the plethora of suppliers that are available to the U.S. That is precisely why I order fragrance/essential oils from U.S. suppliers when we're going to visit. NDA'S new policy really limits new soapers.


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## Neve (Jan 13, 2014)

Voyageur is actually the fastest for me... But I don't like their lip balm flavours at all, and they aren't the cheapest for oils. I do like their micas though. And they have packaging that NDA doesn't have. 

I actually have to use three different suppliers to get all my stuff. Which sucks because of shipping costs.


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 13, 2014)

Neve said:


> Voyageur is actually the fastest for me... But I don't like their lip balm flavours at all, and they aren't the cheapest for oils. I do like their micas though. And they have packaging that NDA doesn't have.
> 
> I actually have to use three different suppliers to get all my stuff. Which sucks because of shipping costs.



I'm in the same boat. Oils from one & bulk of f.o.'s from another. If you're wondering, I, for the most part, change my scents from year to year, with the exception of a couple bestsellers. It keeps me and my customers interested and diminishes the likelihood of another soaper copying my recipes.


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## EvilTOJ (Jan 13, 2014)

NDA's prices are terrible! Every single oil I priced out I can find in various other places for cheaper. I didn't even bother looking to see how much it'd cost with shipping, because even with shipping I can get my oils from elsewhere cheaper.

I must be getting old, I wrote them an angry letter saying how I won't be buying anything from them.


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## Neve (Jan 14, 2014)

Really? Everything I have priced out and compared has had NDA cheaper. It's not like Canada has a whole lot of choices...

The nearest soap place to me is Soaps and More in Calgary and their prices are insane! So I compare Voyageur, NDA and Saffire Blue usually, and sometimes others. Voyageur has the best customer service hands down.



EvilTOJ said:


> NDA's prices are terrible! Every single oil I priced out I can find in various other places for cheaper. I didn't even bother looking to see how much it'd cost with shipping, because even with shipping I can get my oils from elsewhere cheaper.
> 
> I must be getting old, I wrote them an angry letter saying how I won't be buying anything from them.


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## pamielynn (Jan 14, 2014)

They got back to me with a form letting, saying it just costs them too much to ship small orders. I still call BS. NDA and WSP used to be great when I got started - both catered to the small soaper. Even though I always end up ordering more than $100 from NDA, I don't think it's right to have such a high minimum; this is an expensive hobby and that makes it even more so; and possibly unattainable to those who can't to pay the jacked up prices elsewhere. I'm truly disappointed with them.


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 14, 2014)

Neve said:


> Really? Everything I have priced out and compared has had NDA cheaper. It's not like Canada has a whole lot of choices...
> 
> The nearest soap place to me is Soaps and More in Calgary and their prices are insane! So I compare Voyageur, NDA and Saffire Blue usually, and sometimes others. Voyageur has the best customer service hands down.



Neve,  check Canwax. Their prices are slightly higher, but their shipping costs are excellent. They have really good customer service. I very much like their fo's.


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## Lion Of Judah (Jan 14, 2014)

I share in the same shock as well, NDA is my only supplier . since i started soaping i only purchased from them ,even though my orders are over $100 i am in total agreement that the small soap maker is the only ones hurting here. 
i hope that they take it to heart and find a way to keep the small soapmaker in mind.


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## judymoody (Jan 14, 2014)

I don't buy the shipping costs argument.  Their S&H charges have always seemed on the high side to me.


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## rebekahhall (Jan 14, 2014)

Who is NDA?


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 14, 2014)

Sorry. New Directions Aromatics.


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## rebekahhall (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks, I am in the US and wasn't sure whether this affected me or not... Lol


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 14, 2014)

Actually, it does. NDA serves both the U.S. and Canada.


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## Lion Of Judah (Jan 15, 2014)

see for me , i don't see any one company that has low prices straight across the board. everyone has something cheaper than another carrier, so sometimes in comparing prices online i see one place have something lower but the shipping may still get me. i like soapers choice / columbus foods and come to see that they are better for buying in bulk. then there is JEdwards out of Boston. All in all , if you are able to save few dollars here and there i say its the way to go..i just hope that NDA come to respect the hobbiest & homecrafter / and as someone stated , i can't see how shipping me a order less than $100 is hurting them when i am paying for shipping and they are paying a order picker by the hour...... have them pick my order while in the general vicinity filling a bigger order  jk


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 15, 2014)

LOJ: That's how I see it. I comparison shop online. Canwax has better pricing and shipping on oils; Saffire Blue has better pricing and shipping on fragrance oils. Not quite as cut and dried as that  but y'all get the drift.


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## Cutter (Jan 31, 2014)

You folks need to start jotting down some numbers. I'm a fiend on sourcing product and NDA absolutely crushes the competition on pricing, often by over 50% on many of the same or similar products. And it says nothing that have a *much* larger selection of everything all around.

Shipping isn't a problem for me with them because I pick it up at the warehouse. Have you ever been there? It's huge. That means overhead. And what they're doing isn't unsual. I see plenty of companies - US included - that do this. They've obviously established that the work involved in smaller orders simply isn't cost-effective. That's fine because the market will dicate whether they can pull that off or not. If they lose enough business it'll change, if not, it was the right move. Like the rest of us, they're trying to make money. No need to take it personally or get angry about it, just talk with your consumer dollars and take your business elsewhere if you don't like it.

My only contention is that they use UPS. No one should. At the very least give your customers some choice in shipping options. Besides, what's a $100 anyway? If you're doing this solely as a hobby you can go to Michaels and buy what you need. If you're doing this as a business you're going to be dropping a lot more than $100 on a regular basis.

Really, the major problem are courier companies in NA. It's ridiculous that I have to pay $10-$15 shipping on a bar of soap from someone in the US on Etsy. And if it's over $20 then you get hit with the extortionate broker fees unless you self-clear - which is a PITA.

Yet, I just ordered $50 worth of stuff from Hong Kong....free shipping. I can't even get free shipping from US Amazon so how the eff does that work?!?!

Meanwhile, I still like Canwax, Voyegeur, etc. and you should too.


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## Lin (Jan 31, 2014)

People doing this as a hobby can want better quality ingredients than sourced from Michaels and need to fund it in bulk to keep the price low.


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## TVivian (Jan 31, 2014)

Lin said:


> People doing this as a hobby can want better quality ingredients than sourced from Michaels and need to fund it in bulk to keep the price low.




I totally agree with Lin. I also agree that I'll order from somewhere else as I am a lowly home crafter who expects better quality than craft stores offer


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## soap_rat (Jan 31, 2014)

Cutter: I'm sorry, but I have to dispute a couple of things you have stated.  No, actually, NDA does not beat competitor's prices on quite a lot of EOs.  I bought from NDA, Liberty and Lebermuth all at once, because even with additional shipping, purchasing from each place saved me money.  You're spending too much if you're ordering only from them for EOs.  Their packaging prices did not impress me at all (except lip balm tubes) and I ordered those from elsewhere too.  

And really, you think the hobbyists/small-purchase businesspeople should just buy their supplies at Michaels?  Does Michael's even sell EOs, or FOs rated for anything but melt and pour?  I think more helpful advice would be to turn to companies like Liberty Naturals (minimum purchase $50), Wholesale Supplies Plus (minimum purchase $40) or even (risky though it is with their business reputation) Camden Grey.


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## pamielynn (Jan 31, 2014)

Ha - I would never buy soaping supplies from Michael's, even if they had what I needed. I object to the minimum, because not everyone who soaps is into making a million bucks, or producing 1000 bars a month.

The only EO I buy from them is their Lavender 40/42, because they have the best price on it and it's good. Their shipping times and prices should mean they don't need a minimum; they definitely jack the shipping cost.


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## eyeroll (Jan 31, 2014)

And here I was thinking that I needed to use quality ingredients for soap I make for my family, only to find out it doesn't matter because I don't sell it. Thank goodness!  Off to find some used motor oil and M&P base made from chalk and baby seal tears for my next batch!


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## pamielynn (Jan 31, 2014)

eyeroll said:


> And here I was thinking that I needed to use quality ingredients for soap I make for my family, only to find out it doesn't matter because I don't sell it. Thank goodness!  Off to find some used motor oil and M&P base made from chalk and baby seal tears for my next batch!



Nah - Michael's has what you need! You can get some nice, old, pre-made lotion base there too. Or even some nice gray lavender buds.

However, if you could make a bar of soap with motor oil in it, I know some guys who would buy it


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## Delynnr (Jan 31, 2014)

I also find the Michael's comment offensive. I have no desire to sell. Making soap its one of my many hobbies that balances me out from my desk job. I make for myself, friends and family and would never use the melt and pour crap they sell.  I am also not rich, so 100 now puts NDA off off my go list. It makes my local health food store seem even more reasonable.


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## Miz Jenny (Jan 31, 2014)

I've found a source in Knoxville TN that has fantastic fo prices but I know nothing about them. Anyone familiar with Aztec?


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## soap_rat (Jan 31, 2014)

Pamielynn, just in case you're a member of the soap guild, Lebermuth's lavender 40/42 is 31.80/lb and it's the nicest lavender I've bought (but I have not bought NDA's).  

(Lebermuth has a very high minimum order, but that's waived if one is a member of the guild.  But their smallest bottle is 16oz)


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## pamielynn (Jan 31, 2014)

soap_rat said:


> Pamielynn, just in case you're a member of the soap guild, Lebermuth's lavender 40/42 is 31.80/lb and it's the nicest lavender I've bought (but I have not bought NDA's).
> 
> (Lebermuth has a very high minimum order, but that's waived if one is a member of the guild.  But their smallest bottle is 16oz)




Hey thanks! I am just now only starting to buy in quantities over 5lbs so I should go look at them again. I appreciate the heads up!


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## Hazel (Jan 31, 2014)

Miz Jenny said:


> I've found a source in Knoxville TN that has fantastic fo prices but I know nothing about them. Anyone familiar with Aztec?



I'm not familiar with them but jcatblum mentioned them and I think there has been other references. 

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=381414

I finally got my little order from NDA. It took over a week for them to process it. Out of curiosity, I checked fedex rates for shipping from there to me and found if I was shipping the same size box, it would have cost me $1 less to send it. This makes me wonder really how much they jacked it up since generally companies get a better rate because of volume shipping.


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## soap_rat (Jan 31, 2014)

Yes, I certainly didn't feel like their shipping price was losing them money.  A friend has an MBA so I asked him what I wasn't understanding about the cost of small purchases.  He had no idea either.  Assuming they're doing this because they somehow genuinely lose money on their small sales, my only guess is that they analyzed data and saw a trend of smaller purchasers taking up more of their customer service team's time vs larger purchasers.  Personally I would be very hesitant to lose the hobbyist market and instead I'd increase the prices on small stuff (thus passing along the cost of small customers TO the small customers) and reduce the number of sizes of EOs available (so I could keep less in stock of different sized empty bottles).  Or I'd reduce customer service staff to save money and quietly give large buyers a separate VIP email and phone number for faster customer support, and smaller purchasers might have to wait a little longer for support (but leave a voicemail and wait for a call back as opposed to sitting on hold forever)

Hey NDA, are you listening?  I have great ideas for you, and they're free!  Well, with a $20 surcharge.


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## cmzaha (Jan 31, 2014)

soap_rat said:


> Pamielynn, just in case you're a member of the soap guild, Lebermuth's lavender 40/42 is 31.80/lb and it's the nicest lavender I've bought (but I have not bought NDA's).
> 
> (Lebermuth has a very high minimum order, but that's waived if one is a member of the guild. But their smallest bottle is 16oz)


 
I like NDA's 40/42 and it stick wonderful in soap. I have also used a couple of the lavenders from Liberty Natural and they are very nice. It really is sad the suppliers are cutting out the hobbyist.


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## Hazel (Jan 31, 2014)

soap_rat said:


> Hey NDA, are you listening?  I have great ideas for you, and they're free!  Well, with a $20 surcharge.



Thanks for the laugh! rofl


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