# Amount of TD in Water?



## TheaMay (Jun 27, 2020)

I have premixed TD in a squirt bottle TD 1:1 water. I read that it is recommended to use 1 teaspoons ppo but it seemed to do little to lighten the oils. I have ball bearings in the bottle so I'm sure it was mixed well. I'm a little confused if the 1 tsp ppo recommendation is for dry TD or for dispersed TD ? I didn't want to add more for fear of getting glycerin rivers and adding to much water especially since I'm working with very small amounts of oils. Would it be better to make a stronger mixture ie. 2:1, so as not to mess so much with the water discount of my recipe?


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## Obsidian (Jun 27, 2020)

1 tsp ppo is the dry measurement. When I mix mine, I do 2 part TD, 1 part water.
I don't premix though, I just mix up what I need for each batch.


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## TheaMay (Jun 27, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> 1 tsp ppo is the dry measurement. When I mix mine, I do 2 part TD, 1 part water.
> I don't premix though, I just mix up what I need for each batch.


Thanks for clarifying that. About how much 2:1 what you add ppo?


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## Obsidian (Jun 27, 2020)

I really don't know. I measure out the TD I need for my batch then add water until its the consistency I want.
If I was using premixed, I would keep adding until I got the color I want.


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## TheGecko (Jun 27, 2020)

The 1 tea PPO is dry, so if you do a 2 to 1 mix, then you would need to add 2 tea.  Or just add what you want to get the color you want.


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## TheaMay (Jun 28, 2020)

Thanks very much for clarifying that for me


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## Orla (Jun 28, 2020)

OMIGOD, I was just about to put up a message with the title "How to make TD disappear." Because I too master that trick! I'm a bit miffed. The TD I bought didn't indicate whether it was water or oil soluble. It definitely was water soluble - it dissolved faster than you could blink. I was nonetheless hoping that it might ALSO dissolve in oil. And so I blended it with castor oil in the nutribullet and it came out very creamy. Accent on the 'very' - to the point that my biceps got a good workout getting it out of the bottle. Invariably (although unanticipated on my part) the staineless steel bolts all popped out and into the batter. And then had to be fished out (while the clock of the thickening batter was loudly ticking). Despite all these efforts, one full tablespoon (ie 1 teaspoon of TD) in just 200 grams of batter DISAPPEARED entirely. 
Like Thea May, I am loath to squander water on TD. I do very small batches normally - my biggest ever (yesterday) was 1027 gms (2.2 pounds), and the wretched disappearing act took place in that batch; bfff... And I'm all the more stingy about my water because now I'm master-batching my lye and that takes up precious water that I would prefer to have bestowed on the milk. 
So, QUESTION: Can water-soluble TD be mixed with anything else more interesting than water? Or, can you master-batch lye with anything more interesting than water?
Also, apart from this begrudgingness of water, I feel like I've done more maths calculations in the last three months than collectively over the duration of my previous life. So, the idea of trying to do more maths for portions of the batter getting added water makes my head spin...I actually quite like all the maths, but even I would balk at that...


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## TheaMay (Jun 28, 2020)

Orla said:


> OMIGOD, I was just about to put up a message with the title "How to make TD disappear." Because I too master that trick! I'm a bit miffed. The TD I bought didn't indicate whether it was water or oil soluble. It definitely was water soluble - it dissolved faster than you could blink. I was nonetheless hoping that it might ALSO dissolve in oil. And so I blended it with castor oil in the nutribullet and it came out very creamy. Accent on the 'very' - to the point that my biceps got a good workout getting it out of the bottle. Invariably (although unanticipated on my part) the staineless steel bolts all popped out and into the batter. And then had to be fished out (while the clock of the thickening batter was loudly ticking). Despite all these efforts, one full tablespoon (ie 1 teaspoon of TD) in just 200 grams of batter DISAPPEARED entirely.
> Like Thea May, I am loath to squander water on TD. I do very small batches normally - my biggest ever (yesterday) was 1027 gms (2.2 pounds), and the wretched disappearing act took place in that batch; bfff... And I'm all the more stingy about my water because now I'm master-batching my lye and that takes up precious water that I would prefer to have bestowed on the milk.
> So, QUESTION: Can water-soluble TD be mixed with anything else more interesting than water? Or, can you master-batch lye with anything more interesting than water?
> Also, apart from this begrudgingness of water, I feel like I've done more maths calculations in the last three months than collectively over the duration of my previous life. So, the idea of trying to do more maths for portions of the batter getting added water makes my head spin...I actually quite like all the maths, but even I would balk at that...


I have no idea cause I'm totally new to soap making but it will be interesting to see what the experts on here say. 1 full tablespoon in 200 grams and it did very little, only leaves me wondering just how much extra water some people may add and just how much this could contribute to rivers.


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## Orla (Jun 28, 2020)

I am going to do some swatch tests this evening (more maths!!!). And I will get back to you. I am wondering what's at the bottom of this oil/water soluble distinction... But I will give you the results of my tests tomorrow.


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## TheaMay (Jun 28, 2020)

Thank you Orla, I know exactly what you mean re maths! Will be looking forward to hearing about your results


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## Jersey Girl (Jun 28, 2020)

Orla said:


> OMIGOD, I was just about to put up a message with the title "How to make TD disappear." Because I too master that trick! I'm a bit miffed. The TD I bought didn't indicate whether it was water or oil soluble. It definitely was water soluble - it dissolved faster than you could blink. I was nonetheless hoping that it might ALSO dissolve in oil. And so I blended it with castor oil in the nutribullet and it came out very creamy. Accent on the 'very' - to the point that my biceps got a good workout getting it out of the bottle. Invariably (although unanticipated on my part) the staineless steel bolts all popped out and into the batter. And then had to be fished out (while the clock of the thickening batter was loudly ticking). Despite all these efforts, one full tablespoon (ie 1 teaspoon of TD) in just 200 grams of batter DISAPPEARED entirely.
> Like Thea May, I am loath to squander water on TD. I do very small batches normally - my biggest ever (yesterday) was 1027 gms (2.2 pounds), and the wretched disappearing act took place in that batch; bfff... And I'm all the more stingy about my water because now I'm master-batching my lye and that takes up precious water that I would prefer to have bestowed on the milk.
> So, QUESTION: Can water-soluble TD be mixed with anything else more interesting than water? Or, can you master-batch lye with anything more interesting than water?
> Also, apart from this begrudgingness of water, I feel like I've done more maths calculations in the last three months than collectively over the duration of my previous life. So, the idea of trying to do more maths for portions of the batter getting added water makes my head spin...I actually quite like all the maths, but even I would balk at that...


Did you stick blend the TD in after you added it or did you just stir it?  Stirring doesnt work for me. I have to SB for several seconds to get it to incorporate. I’ve used both water and glycerin to mix my TD and use the least amount possible to just get it pourable.


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## Orla (Jun 28, 2020)

I have my doubts on that, Jersey Girl. The beauty of pre-mixing is that if done properly it can just be stirred in. That would be my feeling. And in any event, if that were the problem, we would see streaks - which is not the case.
I have two running hypotheses. One is that water-soluble titanium dioxide is somehow very different from oil soluble, so that the 1:3 ratio of my premixed TD/castor oil  was much weaker than it would have been if I had used oil-soluble TD.
The other hypothesis is that experienced soapers actually use more TD than 1 tsp (I'm talking powder here) PPO - they just "eyeball" it (as you guys say... )
Anyway, I will conduct tests this evening, so watch this space!!!


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## Jersey Girl (Jun 28, 2020)

Orla said:


> I have my doubts on that, Jersey Girl. The beauty of pre-mixing is that if done properly it can just be stirred in. That would be my feeling. And in any event, if that were the problem, we would see streaks - which is not the case.
> I have two running hypotheses. One is that water-soluble titanium dioxide is somehow very different from oil soluble, so that the 1:3 ratio of my premixed TD/castor oil  was much weaker than it would have been if I had used oil-soluble TD.
> The other hypothesis is that experienced soapers actually use more TD than 1 tsp (I'm talking powder here) PPO - they just "eyeball" it (as you guys say... )
> Anyway, I will conduct tests this evening, so watch this space!!!


I only use a small amount of TD if at all per batch. Probably a couple tsp at most. I dont measure but eyeball as you mentioned. Ive tried stirring it in but don’t see the color change but a few zaps with the SB makes all the difference. You should at least try it.


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## dibbles (Jun 28, 2020)

I don't use TD often, and when I do use it I eyeball it too. I agree with Jersey Girl - stick blending makes a big difference, at least with water soluble TD. I think oil soluble is better able to be stirred in. I find the same to be true of activated charcoal, and to a lesser extent black and white micas.


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## blueginkgo (Jun 28, 2020)

Jersey Girl said:


> I only use a small amount of TD if at all per batch. Probably a couple tsp at most. I dont measure but eyeball as you mentioned. Ive tried stirring it in but don’t see the color change but a few zaps with the SB makes all the difference. You should at least try it.


Same for me. TD dispersed in water and hand stirred into batter, whether with a spatula or whisk, produces very little color change. The same amount mixed in with a stick blender almost instantly shows a much lighter color.


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## penelopejane (Jun 28, 2020)

TheaMay said:


> I have no idea cause I'm totally new to soap making but it will be interesting to see what the experts on here say. 1 full tablespoon in 200 grams and it did very little, only leaves me wondering just how much extra water some people may add and just how much this could contribute to rivers.


I’m really pedantic about water with additives. I use the recipe water only. If I split a batch I add back plain water to the section I didn’t use colour or TD to.
another alternative is to mix your TD with glycerine Because it doesn’t effect the water levels and doesn’t need to be counted as an oil but you have to be careful as too much will make your soap soft.

Using a SB to stir colours into a batch makes a huge difference for the colour activated charcoal turns out, too.


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## Orla (Jun 28, 2020)

Hi to all, to be honest SBing in the TD is really not an option for me - I sail very close to the wind as it is: I need to keep temperatures as low as I can as I have high unsats and high sugar. Seeing as the TD I bought does seem to blend with oils, I think I'll just have to experiment with the dose. Here's a photo of the soap and you will see the not-very-white (identical to un-TD'd soap in my view) part that was actually generously TD'd. It's a mystery to me. (Some of you will recognise the Teri Endsley (of Tree Marie Soapworks) inspiration. It was pictures of her soap that actually inspired me to take up soap-making. I just have this incredible admiration for her!)

EDIT: God, edit that! some of you will recognise a very poor imitation of Teri Endsely.
SECOND EDIT: the orange was also mixed with TD - though, again, no sign of it...


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## Jersey Girl (Jun 28, 2020)

Orla said:


> Hi to all, to be honest SBing in the TD is really not an option for me - I sail very close to the wind as it is: I need to keep temperatures as low as I can as I have high unsats and high sugar. Seeing as the TD I bought does seem to blend with oils, I think I'll just have to experiment with the dose. Here's a photo of the soap and you will see the not-very-white (identical to un-TD'd soap in my view) part that was actually generously TD'd. It's a mystery to me. (Some of you will recognise the Teri Endsley (of Tree Marie Soapworks) inspiration. It was pictures of her soap that actually inspired me to take up soap-making. I just have this incredible admiration for her


Help me understand what the lower temperature would have to do with using a SB for a few secs to incorporate the premixed TD into batter.  I’m not following the logic. Always up for learning!


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## Orla (Jun 28, 2020)

Jersey Girl said:


> Help me understand what the lower temperature would have to do with using a SB for a few secs to incorporate the premixed TD into batter.  I’m not following the logic. Always up for learning!


Goodness Jersey Girl I suspect you know a lot more about soaping than I do, but high temperatures speed up tracing - as does the SB !!


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## Jersey Girl (Jun 28, 2020)

Orla said:


> Goodness Jersey Girl I suspect you know a lot more about soaping than I do, but high temperatures speed up tracing - as does the SB !!


So does adding TD to some extent but if your temps are low and you use it for just a few seconds you should be fine. I absolutely cannot incorporate TD into my batter without it. My other micas I stir/whisk in fine.  TD is a different animal in my experience. Like I said before, try it...you might like it!  I use very little TD to get a nice white.  The stick blender is the secret.


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## Orla (Jun 28, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> The 1 tea PPO is dry, so if you do a 2 to 1 mix, then you would need to add 2 tea.  Or just add what you want to get the color you want.


Well, to be precise, if you added 2tsp of your 2:1 mix you would be adding 1tsp and 1/3 of a tsp



Jersey Girl said:


> So does adding TD to some extent but if your temps are low and you use it for just a few seconds you should be fine. I absolutely cannot incorporate TD into my batter without it. My other micas I stir/whisk in fine.  TD is a different animal in my experience. Like I said before, try it...you might like it!  I use very little TD to get a nice white.  The stick blender is the secret.


Minute 9:24 ...


Here's a thing. This website suggests that one US teaspoon of titanium dioxide weighs 21 grams!!!








						Volume to Weight conversions for common substances and materials
					

Convert volume to weight for different substances and materials based on their density. Volume and calculated weight are in different units of measurement




					www.aqua-calc.com
				




One tsp of TD (with my tsp measure thing) weighs 3.65 grams
Could someone tell me how much your teaspoon of TD weighs, because if I'm putting in 3 1/2 grams and you're putting in 21gms then I think I have solved the mystery of my invisible TD


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## Jersey Girl (Jun 28, 2020)

Orla said:


> Minute 9:24 ...



Well...she must have some magic TD.  I use a badger paint mixer and “blitz” mine and I still need to SB to get a nice light color. BTW, I never measure. I keep it simple for my colors. Add some powder...add some water or glycerin for TD, or sunflower oil if I’m using mica (not from my batch) and mix with badger.  Pour color into batter til I like the shade and pour.  83 batches of soap as of yesterday hasn’t failed me yet!


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## Orla (Jun 28, 2020)

I think there may be differences in different TD as it's sold. I was using this ridiculously expensive premixed TD and I could mix it in fine without the blender, so I really did not anticipate problems as my TD mixed with castor oil actually looked exactly the same. I think this whole TD business is a very grey area - I can't imagine that you are all mixing 21 grams of TD in one tablespoon of oil. That doesn't seem possible. You see Jersey Girl, the difference between you and me is that your instinct is reliable whereas my instinct is an out and out trouble-maker. So to counteract any impulses I might have, I have become "gram this, gram that"... Plus this whole business of switching from pounds to grams to tablespoons. I heard someone in a video the other day using all of those measurements practically in one sentence!
I've retained pounds for some things as it's on soapcalc and quite easy, everything else I convert to grams.


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## AliOop (Jun 28, 2020)

My water-dispersible TD will not mix into my batter without a stick blender. It completely disappears into the batter, and then reappears as random white streaks or rivers in the finished soap.


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## Orla (Jun 29, 2020)

Partial victory for the blenders. On the bottom, SB'd, on the top oil dissolved and on the right water. Note, that for the water I did a 1:1 ratio. (two of them have stickers on the bottom: there were no errors). And this is at the ratio of 5ml PPO. If you look close at the non SB'd oil example, you can see a slight streak. If the TD were doubled in the water one (easy to do) then I am sure it would be whiter than the other two.
PS can't upload my comparison with my soap as rushing off to work and file too big. Will do when I next get a minute.


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## shunt2011 (Jun 29, 2020)

Orla said:


> I have my doubts on that, Jersey Girl. The beauty of pre-mixing is that if done properly it can just be stirred in. That would be my feeling. And in any event, if that were the problem, we would see streaks - which is not the case.
> I have two running hypotheses. One is that water-soluble titanium dioxide is somehow very different from oil soluble, so that the 1:3 ratio of my premixed TD/castor oil  was much weaker than it would have been if I had used oil-soluble TD.
> The other hypothesis is that experienced soapers actually use more TD than 1 tsp (I'm talking powder here) PPO - they just "eyeball" it (as you guys say... )
> Anyway, I will conduct tests this evening, so watch this space!!!



TD needs to be blended in.   It does not stir in well at all.   I've tried several time with both water and oil dispersible.   TD stick blended makes all the difference in the world.

I mix my TD 2 tsp to 1 T. water in a shot glass.


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## EllieMae (Jun 29, 2020)

When using oil dispersed TD I find that mixing with SB directly into oil is the only way to ensure fully incorporating it in. I use about 1tsp PPO, so for my 2lbs loaves it would be 2tsp to make the whole thing white. Won't get any glycerine rivers, etc.

When using water dispersed TD I mix with water until it's like a slurry and then I can mix in by hand. I have found I need to use a bit more than I would typically use with the oil variety. The first couple times I tried water TD I used too much water and too much TD and did get some glycerine rivers, but now that I have the hang of it I MUCH prefer it because it's way easier to mix and get a consistent colour than oil TD.


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## AliOop (Jun 29, 2020)

EllieMae said:


> When using oil dispersed TD I find that mixing with SB directly into oil is the only way to ensure fully incorporating it in. I use about 1tsp PPO, so for my 2lbs loaves it would be 2tsp to make the whole thing white. Won't get any glycerine rivers, etc.
> 
> When using water dispersed TD I mix with water until it's like a slurry and then I can mix in by hand. I have found I need to use a bit more than I would typically use with the oil variety. The first couple times I tried water TD I used too much water and too much TD and did get some glycerine rivers, but now that I have the hang of it I MUCH prefer it because it's way easier to mix and get a consistent colour than oil TD.


I think a lot of it depends on the TD. I've noticed different results with different brands, myself.  While I've never found one yet that I can stir in to the batter, some of them do blend in much more easily than others.


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