# Embracing the Brown



## John Harris (Feb 13, 2022)

I've got 40 fluid ounces of an FO called "White Vanilla" just staring at me.  (I've mentioned it before.) I made a test batch of 4 bars.  The smell is divine but, my goodness, it discolored to a dark brown!

Do any of you avoid dark brown soap?  Or do you not care and just make it anyway?  I know there is something you can add to ward off the brown for a time, but it's only temporary, which disappoints me.   I would love to hear your thoughts and practices on the matter.


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## Misschief (Feb 13, 2022)

I embrace it and consider it when making my soaps. I'll also let customers know that some fragrances discolour. I've not had anyone complain about the colour yet.


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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 13, 2022)

Why not make a small(ish) “overexposed” batch with 3…4 times the final FO load, shred it, and add it to an unscented batter as confetti? Or add it just to a minor component in your ITP artistry?
It seems that vanillin doesn't migrate too strongly/quickly through soap, at least judging from Cheeky Goat Soapery's wood grain ITP.

What did help for me to scare off the discolouration, was threatening the batter with the proximity of ZCS.
One of my ideas what is happening there is that ZCS does migrate, to a degree where it can effectively suppress the browning throughout the whole bar? I don't know.


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## AliOop (Feb 13, 2022)

I use the vanilla color stabilizer from Bitter Creek North, and have bars that are over a year old with no discoloration yet.  I hear reports that the homemade version linked here is also very stable over time. I plan to try it as soon as I finish up what I have of the BCS version.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 13, 2022)

I embrace the brown... simply because any vanilla fragrance sells well. People don't seem to care that it's dark brown or light. It's a knee buckling seductive scent.


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## John Harris (Feb 13, 2022)

"knee buckling".    HAHAHAHA!!!


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## TheGecko (Feb 13, 2022)

AliOop said:


> I hear reports that the homemade version linked here is also very stable over time.



It does.  I'm using the simple version of ZVCS (23.1% metabisulfate, 76.9% distilled water) 1:1 with my FO. 

This is Autumn Harvest by Elements Bath & Body. It discolors to a dark brown (sorry, this is all I have left of the original soap I made with it and it's in the bathroom).







This is Autumn Harvest that I made on 10/30/2021 using the simple version of ZVCS: 






This is the same soap that I just now (three months later) took a picture of:






While I am happy to "embrace the brown" with most discoloring FOs, this was one FO that I had had such plans for (brilliant autumn color swirls) and didn't know what I was going to do with.  Now with ZVCS, I can do the design that I want...maybe...we know how that works.  LOL


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## Ugeauxgirl (Feb 13, 2022)




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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 13, 2022)

Wow! But – context?


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## Ugeauxgirl (Feb 13, 2022)

Sorry.  I was embracing the brown.  I used vanilla FO in half and none in the other half.  It was a leap of faith swirling the two batters as they looked the same.  Next time I'll add a bit of Cocoa powder so I can see it better.


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## TheGecko (Feb 13, 2022)

Ugeauxgirl said:


> Sorry. I was embracing the brown. I used vanilla FO in half and none in the other half. It was a leap of faith swirling the two batters as they looked the same. Next time I'll add a bit of Cocoa powder so I can see it better.



If I'm going to go brown, I always add a little bit of brown colorant (mica or cocoa powder) to make sure the color is even.  Except for my Chocolate Espresso Soap, I'll scent the entire batter and then separate a little and add TD to it and then do a swirl.


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## Quilter99755 (Feb 14, 2022)

I embrace the brown. I have read all the articles on ZCVS but haven't purchased any of the supplies to make it. Just don't know if it's worth the effort for my Plain Jane soaps. I'm even too lazy to do an ITP swirl! I'm making soaps to get away from all the chemicals and back to nature, then I go add a bunch of chemicals so my soap doesn't turn brown when I use an FO that has vanilla in it? 
I haven't soaped since June of last year so I have until I start soaping this year to make up my mind what to do. My list of things to buy and possible things to do is growing by leaps and bounds. In the meantime, I'm off to Phoenix to take in a quilt show and quilting retreat.


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## Megan (Feb 14, 2022)

I almost always avoid discoloring fragrance oils. The few I can't, I work into the design. I've tried VCS a couple of times and I'm not a fan.


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## AliOop (Feb 14, 2022)

Megan said:


> I almost always avoid discoloring fragrance oils. The few I can't, I work into the design. I've tried VCS a couple of times and I'm not a fan.


Megan, which VCS did you use, and what didn't you like about it?  I ask because it is my understanding is that the ones from Brambleberry and WSP are well  known for not being as effective as the one from BCN, or the recipe that @Todd Ziegler developed.


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## Megan (Feb 14, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Megan, which VCS did you use, and what didn't you like about it?  I ask because it is my understanding is that the ones from Brambleberry and WSP are well  known for not being as effective as the one from BCN, or the recipe that @Todd Ziegler developed.


I used WSP. I found that it did not combine with my FO very well and when I used it, any part of the loaf that was in contact with air still browned immediately as it saponified. I could plane that off of my rectangular bars but I don't like the extra step and I don't like that it doesn't last forever anyway. I also think it changes the scent of the FO even though they say it doesn't...there's just something not quite right.

As a note: my lemon poppyseed bar is almost a year old and is just now starting to discolor to a light tan at the corners so it does last a while.


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## AliOop (Feb 14, 2022)

Megan said:


> I used WSP. I found that it did not combine with my FO very well and when I used it, any part of the loaf that was in contact with air still browned immediately as it saponified. I could plane that off of my rectangular bars but I don't like the extra step and I don't like that it doesn't last forever anyway. I also think it changes the scent of the FO even though they say it doesn't...there's just something not quite right.
> 
> As a note: my lemon poppyseed bar is almost a year old and is just now starting to discolor to a light tan at the corners so it does last a while.


Reports like yours are why I bit the bullet and got the BCN version; I haven't heard anyone be that happy with the WSP stuff.

So far, BNC's has been great, although I did feel like the scent wasn't quite as strong. The problem with ordering from BCN is that shipping is a killer, even if you add on some other FOs to lower the overall shipping cost per item (which means you are still spending more than you wanted). 

It's pennies on the dollar to order the ingredients for the homemade stuff, once I finish up the last of the BCN stuff - probably two more batches of soap.


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## TheGecko (Feb 14, 2022)

Quilter99755 said:


> I embrace the brown. I have read all the articles on ZCVS but haven't purchased any of the supplies to make it. Just don't know if it's worth the effort for my Plain Jane soaps. I'm even too lazy to do an ITP swirl! I'm making soaps to get away from all the chemicals and back to nature, then I go add a bunch of chemicals so my soap doesn't turn brown when I use an FO that has vanilla in it?



I just went with the simple version...it was $10.80 for a pound on Amazon.  It was easy to mix and I keep it in a water bottle.  So far I have only used it with two discoloring FOs...Ancient Sedona (BB) and Autumn Harvest (Elements) simply because the discoloration just didn't go with the scent.  BB doesn't sell Ancient Sedona anymore so it's no longer an issue, but I really like Autumn Harvest so I will continue to use it with that.  Other discoloring FOs that I have, I have been able to work the discoloration into a design that go with the scent.  And let's be honest...when it comes to selling soap people first look with their eyes, then they pick it up and smell it...then they might look at the ingredients.  No matter how great your soap is, or how great it smells, odds are good that if it doesn't look nice, people aren't going to want to buy it.  Something I learned with a batch of Baby Powder Soap when the blue mica turned a sickly shade of greenish-grey...it smelled great, but I couldn't even sell it for a buck a bar...no one wanted it.

But I totally respect you not wanting to add a chemical to your soap.


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## John Harris (Feb 14, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> I just went with the simple version...it was $10.80 for a pound on Amazon.



Hi Gecko!
I'm missing something.  You went with the simpler version of what?


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## TheGecko (Feb 14, 2022)

John Harris said:


> I'm missing something.  You went with the simpler version of what?



There are two recipes for ZVCS; one contains Metabisulfate , Thiosulfate and Distilled Water and the other is just Metabisulfate and Distilled Water.  The first one is closer to the VCSs that are found commercially, but the second one works just fine as illustrated from my photos above.


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## John Harris (Feb 14, 2022)

Does anyone have a source to buy sodium thiosulfate?  I've been scouring the net but I can't seem to find anything.  A Canadian source would be great, but I am realistic and something from the USA would be fine.


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## AliOop (Feb 14, 2022)

On the original homemade vanilla stabilizer thread, another Canadian member @Saponificarian suggested this source. Perhaps she can chime in with a Canadian source if she's found one? In the meantime, check Voyageur and Windy Point, as well as sites that sell aquarium, wine, and photography supplies. Apparently this stuff has many uses.


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## John Harris (Feb 14, 2022)

AliOop said:


> On the original homemade vanilla stabilizer thread, another Canadian member @Saponificarian suggested this source.


I checked out the source.  It looked great till we got to shipping.  I could have it shipped for either 30 dollars or 70 dollars.  PIRATES!


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## SideDoorSoaps (Feb 14, 2022)

I made my first vanilla soap with Tahitian Vanilla from NDA and was aware it was going to go brown so I worked with it by splitting my batter and whitening with white kaolin clay. It came out pretty I think. I didn’t expect it to be so white.


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## John Harris (Feb 14, 2022)

SideDoorSoaps said:


> so I worked with it by splitting my batter


When you say you split it, do you mean that you didn't put the FO in half the batch?


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## Catscankim (Feb 14, 2022)

John Harris said:


> When you say you split it, do you mean that you didn't put the FO in half the batch?


I have done that. It also tends to bleed into your unfragranced white soap. I dont have an example. But it does.


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## Catscankim (Feb 14, 2022)

I wonder if a mica pencil line layer would stop the bleed?


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## AliOop (Feb 14, 2022)

Catscankim said:


> I wonder if a mica pencil line layer would stop the bleed?


Yes, there is a video from Eve's Garden Soaps (Ione Eve) where she does that. Lemme find it.

Hmmm can't find it, and it looks like some of her older videos have been edited quite a bit (less talking, more music). But the best I can recall, she used a mica line in one soap to prevent bleeding. In another, she made a layer with the darkening fragrance at the bottom. Then there was a small middle layer with no fragrance, but she colored it brown with mica or cocoa. Then the top layer was pretty and swirly with a non-discoloring fragrance. The middle unfragranced layer worked to block the color bleeding into the top section. But that does make for rather limited design options, I would think.

@John Harris have you checked ebay.ca for thiosulfate? Sometimes it's spelled -phate instead of -fate.


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## SideDoorSoaps (Feb 14, 2022)

John Harris said:


> When you say you split it, do you mean that you didn't put the FO in half the batch?


I fragranced the whole batch, just added the clay to half of it. I didn’t get any bleed through. Although the clay half had more water in it as well from when I mixed the clay before putting in my oils. I’ve found that the clay thickens the batter too much without additional water to hydrate the clay.


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 15, 2022)

Ummm - 'White Vanilla' is kind of an oxymoron in this case innit?  I like the idea of doing a wood grain effect wiht half coloured (scented) and half uncoloured (Unscented).  Just divide the two and do a fine ribbon pour up and down the loaf, alternating colours as you go.  Cut on the cross from how you usually cut it.


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## TheGecko (Feb 15, 2022)

John Harris said:


> Does anyone have a source to buy sodium thiosulfate?  I've been scouring the net but I can't seem to find anything.  A Canadian source would be great, but I am realistic and something from the USA would be fine.



Amazon


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 15, 2022)

John Harris said:


> Does anyone have a source to buy sodium thiosulfate?


Google "chemistry store, Canada". -- lots of responses. This is just one.








						Sodium Thiosulfate Penta
					

Sodium Thiosulfate, Pentahydrate Photo Grade Crystalline




					www.chemistrystore.com


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## John Harris (Feb 16, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> There are two recipes for ZVCS; one contains Metabisulfate , Thiosulfate and Distilled Water and the other is just Metabisulfate and Distilled Water.  The first one is closer to the VCSs that are found commercially, but the second one works just fine as illustrated from my photos above.



Let's say I have a friend who is going to make the simplified version of the stabilizer in a 32 fl. ounce bottle. How much distilled water does he use and how much metabisulfate?  Oh! And what is the usage rate?  (Ok, ok ... So he is a little dense.)


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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 16, 2022)

First, tell your friend that he shouldn't punish himself with these stupid imperial units. (Don't tell him that stupid metric units don't make anything easier.)
Then, tell him that it's an unfortunate historical bad habit of the SMF folks that they call this you-know-which wine preservative “metabisulf*a*te” rather than “metabisulf*i*te” (though, again, the label on the bag doesn't change the properties of the product).

Leaving out the thiosulfate from ZCS means you're on your own, and you have to validate every step anew, without reassurance and backing from @Todd Ziegler et al. _Enter _*JCS (John's Colour Stabiliser)*
This new uncertainty includes first and foremost the JCS dosage. For ZCS it was found appropriate to use it 1:1 to the FO.
Now we have to guess how much 32 fl. oz of your FO weigh. Let's assume 1 kg for now.

The Lazy John recipe (without thiosulfate) calls for 3 parts sodium metabisulfite per 10 parts water.
JCS target batch: 1 kg = 13 parts 
Water: 10 parts = 10/13 kg = 769 g
Sodium metabisulfite: 3 parts = 3/13 kg = 231 g

(Per kg of the original ZCS recipe with thiosulfate, you'd need 10/16 = 625 g water and 3/16 = 188 g of the two sulfuric salts.)



John Harris said:


> So he is a little dense.)


Yes. Density is the reason why we prefer weights over volumetric measurements whenever possible. Including VCS, which is most likely denser than the FO in question, i. e. will have a smaller volume for the 1:1 dosage.




John Harris said:


> PIRATES!


Why so angry? Wasn't this your business just as well? Or have you grown out of that phase?


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## John Harris (Feb 16, 2022)

@ResolvableOwl  Oh god...  I am thoroughly confused now.  So many questions...

BTW, I'm trying to find thiosulfate in Canada but every place I've found will only sell to a lab or to a school.  That's why I was trying to get away with using Gecko's path of just using metabisulfate.  It seems to have worked out well for him/her.  And I have metabisulfate sitting on my dining room table. Hence the proposed shortcut.  I do have some thiosulfate being shipped to my father in the States.  I hope to get down there in a couple of months. but, y'know, it's *soap *and I just can't wait!

So I guess I should weigh the amount of water that will fill my 32 oz. bottle?  And then, should it be *3* parts metabisulfate or *6* parts (the second 3 parts making up for the thiosulfite that is missing?)

Actually, in science (and in science ONLY!) I prefer working in grams for the sake of uniformity and precision. But in everyday life I prefer all the variations of the world.  How I love it when someone describes his/her weight in stones!  I have no idea what it means, but I love hearing it. I consider the metric system to be the modern day "Newsspeak" (from George Orwell's _1984_) which only permitted one word to be used for something - no synonyms were allowed.

On second thought, maybe I should just stay quiet and wait til I can get down to my father's.


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## HoliHealerz (Feb 16, 2022)

I thought I would post my brown (decadent chocolate and mint (EO) soap) since we are talking about brown CP.



HoliHealerz said:


> I thought I would post my brown (decadent chocolate and mint (EO) soap) since we are talking about brown CP.


Sorry the wrapped on was an accident and cannot find how to delete it.


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## TheGecko (Feb 17, 2022)

John Harris said:


> Let's say I have a friend who is going to make the simplified version of the stabilizer in a 32 fl. ounce bottle. How much distilled water does he use and how much metabisulfate?  Oh! And what is the usage rate?  (Ok, ok ... So he is a little dense.)



ZVCS (23.1% metabisulfate, 76.9% distilled water) 1:1 with my FO.

So for 32 oz you would use 7.4 oz metabisulfate and 24.6 oz distilled water.  Shake until dissolved.  I have to warn you, it stinks, but once it’s mixed in…nothing.  And it didn’t affect the scent or the batter.

You the same amount as the scent.  1 oz FO, 1 oz ZVCS

Now the first time I used it with Ancient Sedona, my soap was a bit…sticky.  I wasn’t sure if that was a side effect, or something else.  The second time I used it was with Autumn Harvest…no sticky.  Now I had used colorants the first time, but none the second time…don’t know if that had anything to do with it.  I’ll try and make some time Friday to make another test batch with AH, but with colorants; I’ll try clay, mica, pigment and ultramarine to see if there is a difference.


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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 17, 2022)

Bisulfite is added to photographic fixer to protect thiosulfate from reacting with the oxygen in the air (as it is added to wine to protect subtle grape aromas and fermentation byproducts from reacting with the oxygen in the air). Sulfites are also included in many developer recipes, to prevent the developing substances (that usually happen to be polyvalent phenols just like vanillin) from reacting with the oxygen in the air, hence from – turning brown .

I don't know much about the chemistry of vanillin oxidation, I expect the (bi)sulfite to be the main oxidation protector on the short and middle term. If you're lucky, it just keeps up as long as the soap lasts, and you don't need a long-term colour stabiliser (thiosulfate).



John Harris said:


> And then, should it be *3* parts metabisulfate or *6* parts (the second 3 parts making up for the thiosulfite that is missing?)


These are the decisions that the inventor of a new recipe is facing. 

Or you could rely on @TheGecko's experiences and indeed replace the thiosulfate with just water.

BTW: I find it not particularly difficult to find suppliers for thiosulfate. It doesn't appear to me too hard to purchase it (as photographic fixer or pool water chlorine remover).


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## John Harris (Feb 17, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> ZVCS (23.1% metabisulfate, 76.9% distilled water) 1:1 with my FO.
> 
> So for 32 oz you would use 7.4 oz metabisulfate and 24.6 oz distilled water.  Shake until dissolved.  I have to warn you, it stinks, but once it’s mixed in…nothing.  And it didn’t affect the scent or the batter.
> 
> You the same amount as the scent.  1 oz FO, 1 oz ZVCS



Pardon me for not letting go of this bone, but when you are talking "ounces" I assume you are talking fluid ounces?  How does one measure out 24.6 fluid ounces of water?  The measuring cup I use to cook with would be very imprecise I would think.


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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 17, 2022)

Why not ask your well-educated friend to convert fl. oz. to grams, and then weigh it?


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## John Harris (Feb 17, 2022)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Why not ask your well-educated friend to convert fl. oz. to grams, and then weigh it?


I like that idea!


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## TheGecko (Feb 17, 2022)

John Harris said:


> Pardon me for not letting go of this bone, but when you are talking "ounces" I assume you are talking fluid ounces?  How does one measure out 24.6 fluid ounces of water?  The measuring cup I use to cook with would be very imprecise I would think.



No worries.  The answer is Yes and no.  Water is the only thing (that I know of) in which volume and weight are the same; so 32 oz by volume will weigh 32 oz on the scale.  Plus I winged it a bit.  

Since it was the first time I was making this stuff and even though I had faith in @Todd Ziegler, I didn't want to make up a huge batch of the stuff in case I didn't like the results and therefore, I could sell the rest of the Metabisulfate. So I decided to just make an 8 oz batch and used a bottle that held 12 fl oz. Simple math...8 oz x 0.769 = 6.152 or 6.15 oz. 8 oz - 6.15 oz = 1.85 oz. Double-check the math...8 oz x 0.231 = 1.848 or 1.85 oz. So...6.15 oz Distilled Water and 1.85 oz BY WEIGHT put into the bottle and shook up.



ResolvableOwl said:


> Or you could rely on @TheGecko's experiences and indeed replace the thiosulfate with just water.



Except that I didn't use Thiosufate, I use Metabisulfate.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 17, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> Sorry the wrapped on was an accident and cannot find how to delete it.


Find the "*Report*" button -- lower left corner of your post. Click on that. Request that the post be deleted and the reason. Admin/Mods will see it and delete it... usually within 24 hours.


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## AliOop (Feb 17, 2022)

Gecko spoke for herself so I have deleted my prior post.


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## John Harris (Feb 17, 2022)

Ok, here's what I got based on Gecko's percentages:

I want to make 28 fluid ounces of the stuff.  That is 828 grams.   

828 x 0.77 = 637.60 grams of water.  
828 x 0.23 = 190.45 grams of metabisulfate.

The recipe says to use 9.05 fl. ounces of FO which is 268 grams.  Since it is a 1:1 application, I would use 268 grams of the metabisulfate solution.

I realize that I am measuring/converting everything as if it were water.  Is that ok?


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 17, 2022)

John Harris said:


> I realize that I am measuring/converting everything as if it were water. Is that ok?


As long as it's water net weight, i.e., grams, you're good to go. 


John Harris said:


> The recipe says to use 9.05 fl. ounces of FO which is 268 grams.


Be sure to weigh the FO to make sure it is indeed 268 grams.


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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 17, 2022)

John Harris said:


> I realize that I am measuring/converting everything as if it were water. Is that ok?


Strictly speaking, you aren't, and that's the reason why you're right. 

I'm not sure if an attempt to explain why, is worth the effort (because it will likely confuse you even more – better listen to @Zany_in_CO than me). I'll try anyway:


John Harris said:


> I want to make 28 fluid ounces of the stuff. That is 828 grams.


No. You won't know the weight of 28 fl oz of your stuff, unless you look up its density (your bisulf*i*te isn't there, though). But it doesn't matter. Your 28 fl oz will weigh more than 828 g, but the only effect of this “error” is that you will have something of the JCS left when you're through your FO bottle. This would likely be the case anyway, because your 28 fl oz of FO probably weigh _less_ than 828 g. But this “use the numbers of water” intuition isn't entirely off, because all densities (except lye) in soapmaking are ±20% around those of water, hence you make at worst a volume-to-mass conversion error of ±20%.


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## John Harris (Feb 17, 2022)

@ResolvableOwl   Well!  I'm glad we got THAT cleared up!  LOL!


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## TheGecko (Feb 17, 2022)

John Harris said:


> The recipe says to use 9.05 fl. ounces of FO which is 268 grams.  Since it is a 1:1 application, I would use 268 grams of the metabisulfate solution.
> 
> I realize that I am measuring/converting everything as if it were water.  Is that ok?



Don’t over think it too much, but I do recommend that you weigh the FO.  And while I have confidence is ZVCS, it’s always a good idea to make a test batch.


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## DianaMoon (Feb 22, 2022)

This inspired me to make a brown soap. 

1. Molasses
2. Coffee instead of water
3. Cacao powder
4. Vanilla essence (just a few last drops of an old bottle)

Oil mix: avocado, cocoa butter, coconut, castor.  Not sure what that white stuff is. I think it may be dust. It's not on the other bars. I don't know what color the lather is.

It's curing so I don't know whether the soap is good. I do know I love the color.


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## Obsidian (Mar 4, 2022)

I avoid discoloring FO now. No matter how much I like the smell, I find I never reach for brown soap in the shower and no one asks for more when its gifted.


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## Mobjack Bay (Mar 5, 2022)

Obsidian said:


> I avoid discoloring FO now. No matter how much I like the smell, I find I never reach for brown soap in the shower and no one asks for more when its gifted.


I’m with you on that one, but discovered over the holidays that my coffee soap with discoloring FO was a hit with teenagers and 20-somethings.


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## TheGecko (Mar 5, 2022)

Obsidian said:


> I avoid discoloring FO now. No matter how much I like the smell, I find I never reach for brown soap in the shower and no one asks for more when its gifted.



I think it really depends on the scent and how you 'embrace' it.  I do a Chocolate Espresso that is very popular...three-quarters of the soap is a rich brown (I add cocoa and brown oxide) and has a 'whip cream' topping with a sprinkle of cocoa on it.  And I did fairly well with adding some lighter swirls to Woodland Chestnut and Bourbon Chai Toddy, but a natural Snickerdoodle, Pumpkin Pie and Autumn Harvest ended up in the donation box even though they smelled wonderful.


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## Spice (Mar 6, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> I think it really depends on the scent and how you 'embrace' it.  I do a Chocolate Espresso that is very popular...three-quarters of the soap is a rich brown (I add cocoa and brown oxide) and has a 'whip cream' topping with a sprinkle of cocoa on it.  And I did fairly well with adding some lighter swirls to Woodland Chestnut and Bourbon Chai Toddy, but a natural Snickerdoodle, Pumpkin Pie and Autumn Harvest ended up in the donation box even though they smelled wonderful.


What does brown oxide do? Cocoa is brown?


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## TheGecko (Mar 6, 2022)

Spice said:


> What does brown oxide do? Cocoa is brown?



The oxide evens out the discoloration, the cocoa deepens it and gives it label appeal.


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## Saponificarian (Mar 7, 2022)

AliOop said:


> On the original homemade vanilla stabilizer thread, another Canadian member @Saponificarian suggested this source. Perhaps she can chime in with a Canadian source if she's found one? In the meantime, check Voyageur and Windy Point, as well as sites that sell aquarium, wine, and photography supplies. Apparently this stuff has many uses.



I know I got Metabisulphate but just can’t remember from where anymore. Must have been from Amazon US.


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