# So as Soapers; is Palm oil vegan?



## BroknArrw (Jan 14, 2018)

The simple answer isn't always the right answer. Yes it vegetable based but there is the issue of destroying habitats of rain Forrest of orangutans and elephants as well as many types of fish.
Guessing most vegans would not realize the average vegan is said to be responsible for the deaths of .3 animals a year through food they eat.
I saw people selling Vegan and asked them. I certainly won't knock their belief system. 
My base of Palm, coconut and Olive oil technically could be called vegan but what do you all think?


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## mx5inpenn (Jan 14, 2018)

BroknArrw said:


> The simple answer isn't always the right answer. Yes it vegetable based but there is the issue of destroying habitats of rain Forrest of orangutans and elephants as well as many types of fish.
> Guessing most vegans would not realize the average vegan is said to be responsible for the deaths of .3 animals a year through food they eat.
> I saw people selling Vegan and asked them. I certainly won't knock their belief system.
> My base of Palm, coconut and Olive oil technically could be called vegan but what do you all think?


My husband is vegan and he and many others will not use palm. In fact, I don't know any that will. That is why my vegan soaps are also palm-free.


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## Cellador (Jan 14, 2018)

"Veganism is both the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products, particularly in diet, and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals."--Wikipedia definition

So, since palm oil is not an animal product, I would consider it vegan friendly. I actually have several friends who are both vegan & fairly eco-conscious, and when I asked them about their stance on palm oil, none were really aware with the issues surrounding palm oil. I was surprised! I believe palm oil is used mostly used for cooking applications, so I think if it was a big concern for vegans, we'd all have heard more about it. Personally, I'd never heard of palm oil concerns until I started soaping...


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## Soapprentice (Jan 14, 2018)

Honestly no one really know much about palm oils and issues surrounding it.. neither did I until I got into this forum, so to answer your question, most including I do think palm oil is vegan but I don’t like it in soap so I don’t use it.


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## penelopejane (Jan 14, 2018)

I think it depends where you live. I think  Aussie’s are more aware of Palm oil problems with the environment and animal habitat. Our major supermarkets only sell products that contain sustainable palm oil. It’s a step in the right direction but there are still many who believe that “sustainable” is not policed well enough. 

So palm oil, even sustainable palm oil, isn’t vegan.
There are lots of articles on the internet about it not being vegan.


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## Obsidian (Jan 14, 2018)

I don't consider it vegan but instead, vegetarian. At least as I understand the definition of the two. If Im asked for a veggie soap, I will use palm. If I was asked specifically for a vegan soap, I would have to turn them down as I have been unable to formulate a decent vegan bar, If I can't use lard, I have to use palm.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 14, 2018)

I'd give them a Castile or a salt bar. 

I can see why it would be considered non-vegan (as vegan HAS a meaning, which should be used) and the damage done to the orangutan population would certainly be viewed as exploitative. I think its easier to just not use it and either use lard or a totally different recipe


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## cmzaha (Jan 14, 2018)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'd give them a Castile or a salt bar.
> 
> I can see why it would be considered non-vegan (as vegan HAS a meaning, which should be used) and the damage done to the orangutan population would certainly be viewed as exploitative. I think its easier to just not use it and either use lard or a totally different recipe



Palm is Vegan and my vegan customers buy it does not come from an animal. I will not go into my long dissertation as to why I choose to use it. We will never stop the production and our country is one of the lowest of vegan. In order to make a suitable lasting soap without animal fats I would have to use a large percentage of hard butters, stearic acid or some beeswax, which will create a bar my customers would hate. So if a vegan wants a soap without palm they have to go elsewhere. Remember some child and family is getting dinner because their dad has a job... so I will use it and sleep at night

The term Vegan was coined by Donald Watson in 1944 to help separate the vegetarians that take it a to the more extreme and do not eat eggs and dairy or anything connected to animals. Honey comes from a bug so it has expanded more...Anyone wanting to make vegan beer soap needs to make sure they are using vegan beer...


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## SaltedFig (Jan 14, 2018)

The vegans I know won't use palm oil products.

Vegan is a term coined in England in the mid 20th century.

This is their FAQ: https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/general-faqs


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## Saponificarian (Jan 14, 2018)

I am about to offend some people but I think people that would not use palm in soap but would eat products made with Palm, use cream made with Palm derivatives are just hypocrites. Practice what you preach...

 It brought tears to my eyes when I saw what was going on in Indonesia with the Orangutans and that is why I support a foundation like The Masarang Foundation in Indonesia who are doing something about it. 

Sometimes I think all this brouhaha! is a 1st world problem. I live in a 3rd world country (Developing Economy I believe we are called now) where people don’t know where their next meal is coming from, where mothers beg on the road to feed their children, where if it a choice between your child dying of hunger or going to work on a palm plantation which would you pick? 

I am from a palm producing country and I see first hand the agony and toil that goes into planting all these palm and how a slight deviation in weather, exchange rate or any shift can mean hunger and starvation for many families et alone being able to afford school fees. 

I am not excusing those that are killing Orangutans because we definitely don’t kill Orangutans in Nigeria but am guessing with the lands been cleared for agriculture some animals are bound to go so would that mean that a country like Nigeria where like 85% of the population cook with Palm oil should starve? 

This is an issue with a wide gray area so...... But to each his own....


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## earlene (Jan 14, 2018)

I agree, *Saponificarian*.  I can be a vegetarian, in part because of my environment, and I am fully aware that given different circumstances, I would have to make different choices than I do now and have done in my past.


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## cmzaha (Jan 14, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> The vegans I know won't use palm oil products.
> 
> Vegan is a term coined in England around the 1950s.
> 
> This is their FAQ: https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/general-faqs


Probably depends on which article you read. I have read more than one that states 1944 but it really is immaterial    



Saponificarian said:


> I am about to offend some people but I think people that would not use palm in soap but would eat products made with Palm, use cream made with Palm derivatives are just hypocrites. Practice what you preach...
> 
> It brought tears to my eyes when I saw what was going on in Indonesia with the Orangutans and that is why I support a foundation like The Masarang Foundation in Indonesia who are doing something about it.
> 
> ...


yep^^^ I just cannot support animals over humans especially children. In our so called first world country we have starving children. It also amazes no one in our country do much yelling over the bark beetle that has decimated our forest. What happens to those animals...


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## osso (Jan 14, 2018)

The palm oil question is complex. I consider it vegan. For those who eschew palm oil for its environmental impact, I think it hypocritical to not look critically at the impact of the production of other vegetable oils. For example soy (oil and wax). And on and on it could go. Just so happens people have a strong response to the poor orangutans. Yes, palm oil production needs to be more responsible and sustainable. But, any crop harvested on a large scale can be problematic.


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## Laurabolyard (Jan 14, 2018)

Obsidian said:


> If I was asked specifically for a vegan soap, I would have to turn them down as I have been unable to formulate a decent vegan bar, If I can't use lard, I have to use palm.



Will you please elaborate?  I'm trying to learn. I bought a jug of palm oil, only because it was from woman going out of business. I don't feel great about it, but I figure 'better used than die in vain'. Have you not formulated a bar without palm oil that you're happy with?  And PLEASE, why?


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## SaltedFig (Jan 15, 2018)

cmzaha said:


> Probably depends on which article you read. I have read more than one that states 1944 but it really is immaterial


 
I’ve corrected my sentence to read the way I intended it to be read (thanks for the heads up that it was an issue):

Trivia: The Vegan Society didn't have a definition for the word Vegan until the early 1950's.


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## Susie (Jan 15, 2018)

Saponificarian said:


> I am about to offend some people but I think people that would not use palm in soap but would eat products made with Palm, use cream made with Palm derivatives are just hypocrites. Practice what you preach...
> 
> It brought tears to my eyes when I saw what was going on in Indonesia with the Orangutans and that is why I support a foundation like The Masarang Foundation in Indonesia who are doing something about it.
> 
> ...



I was avoiding palm oil for quite a while until it occurred to me that people have to make a living.  Children must be fed.  If my buying a container of palm oil and tallow shortening helps those kids be fed, then I will just have to buy it. More countries are growing palm for (oil trees) than the ones that destroy orangutan habitation.  We can't avoid palm in our food, especially if we eat out at restaurants, so why be hypocritical?


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## LilyJo (Jan 15, 2018)

I think the trouble is where does one stop?

Families in India need to work so their children are employed in sweat shop conditions; people in China need food so they torture and eat dogs; you can use the argument that they have to put food on the table to support every kind of situation no matter how good or bad.

I dont use palm in any of my products and try my best to avoid palm in foodstuffs but its not easy (as people who are allergic have testified).  My view is that we should all reduce the amount of impact we cause to our planet and the use of controversial ingredients for luxuries is, for me, always uncessary. We have looked at all of our ingredients and packaging and have either removed them or made a choice based on our ethics inc palm, essential oils, plastics and whether the ingredients are truly cruelty free.

There are so many areas where we could all reduce our environmental impact - I agree that orangutans are an emotive subject but we have already lost so many speciies as a result of what we do.  If we can use our voices to encourage truly sustainable palm agriculture surely that is better for the environment but also better for those countries that farm it; ultimately they would have a sustainable crop and not one that has stripped the soils clean in  matter of years? 

Back to the OP, palm is a vegan product without a doubt but its use has ethical connotations and I can well understand why vegans and vegetarians may choose to avoid it.


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## snappyllama (Jan 15, 2018)

I'm a lover of definitions... palm oil is vegan as it does not contain animal products. However, a lot of vegans might not want to use it so if you're selling to vegans, you'll probably want to skip it. I leave folks to figure out their own rules for behavior that fit within their ethics.  I am a stickler for definitions though. 

If folks are going to classify things as non-vegan since animals were killed to grow those vegetables/trees... they are going to run out of anything to eat. Having spent time on farms during plowing/harvesting times... a lot of animals die. Waaay more than you'd think. 

Personally, I don't use it - mainly since I don't need it for anything. I'm happy with my lard recipes and vegetarian-friendly recipes and do not sell (so I don't have to worry about ingredient costs per batch... my veggie one would be a little pricey to bring to market).

Aside: I've always wondered why people don't get more excited about castor oil being a problematic product.


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## gloopygloop (Jan 15, 2018)

LilyJo said:


> I think the trouble is where does one stop?
> 
> Families in India need to work so their children are employed in sweat shop conditions; people in China need food so they torture and eat dogs; you can use the argument that they have to put food on the table to support every kind of situation no matter how good or bad.
> 
> ...



I totally agree, I dont use palm either for many reasons some ethical some practical. Starving children and families are a terrible surge and will continue as long as there are corrupt governments in this world palm or no palm IMHOP.

I agree that palm is an ethical issue and if one is vegetarian or vegan then one may understandably take that issue on board.


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## Susie (Jan 15, 2018)

To be fair, however, the vegans can't buy any soap at the grocery store unless they have done quite a bit of research on all the ingredients.  If I were selling to vegans, (I don't sell to anyone right now.) I would just label honestly and let them decide on whether they wanted it or not.  I live in Texas, though, so I am unlikely to run into a large enough amount to really impact sales much.


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## lmosca (Jan 15, 2018)

When thinking about palm oil at a small local scale, there are many viable alternatives. 
While policing on sustainable palm oil is extremely important, I always try to see the bigger picture.

So, thinking on a worldwide scale, I ask myself, can we switch to a crop that causes lesser problems?
The answer, right now, is No.

Palm oil has the highest yield / acre of any other mass produced oil crop. 
We are talking about 3.5x the yield of coconut oil, or almost 7x the yield of soybean oil. 
That is, if we wanted to cut out completely palm oil production, we would have to free up 7x more landmass for soy cultivation. Or 3.5x for coconut production. This does not take into account that both coconut and soybean are "cooking oil", while palm oil is mainly a "biofuel oil". This inevitably will cause a shift in prices for food oils, where developing nations will have to pay more for their source of calories, on a long term scale it would be like a dramatic increase in the price of rice (the most consumed source of carbs).

A further reasoning is that soybean oil cannot be cultivated in the tropics, hence, the problem will be transported elsewhere (US, for example), magnified, and leaving other countries without a centuries-long established industry.

So, besides pushing the issue on policing sustainable palm cultivation, boycotting and ranting about the oil palm cultivation is actually the least environmentally-friendly thing somebody could do.
As of now.

In 50 years, maybe, we will switch all of our oil production to algal ponds, with a yield far higher than palm oil, and so there will not be the need to discuss which oil is good or bad.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 15, 2018)

I think vegan has a definition that's pretty cut and dried - does not use animal products. Any other factors regarding sustainability, etc, are not related to the definition of vegan. You could certainly argue that palm oil is not sustainable or animal friendly - but that doesn't make it not vegan.


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## penelopejane (Jan 15, 2018)

lmosca said:


> , while palm oil is mainly a "biofuel oil". This inevitably will cause a shift in prices for food oils, where developing nations will have to pay more for their source of calories, on a long term scale it would be like a dramatic increase in the price of rice (the most consumed source of carbs).
> .



This is not the case. Palm oil is used in Australia for just about all processed foods. “Vegetable oil” in processed food here is generally palm oil. If someone uses something other than palm oil they are at pains to specify it “canola oil” etc. 

There is no current requirement to label the type of oil used except to state that it is ‘vegetable oill’


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## earlene (Jan 15, 2018)

This is an interesting link, which lists many things palm oil is used in, as well as listing ingredient names for palm.

http://greenpalm.org/about-palm-oil/what-is-palm-oil/what-is-palm-oil-used-for


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## toxikon (Jan 15, 2018)

I don't have anything to add here, but I just want to say that it's fascinating to read everyone's opinions on this and I love that everyone is being so thoughtful,  mature and respectful of other's opinions on a rather delicate subject.


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## BroknArrw (Jan 15, 2018)

Yes I am also pleased to get so much feed back and the respect everyone has for each other. It's been very educating.


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## lmosca (Jan 15, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> This is not the case. Palm oil is used in Australia for just about all processed foods. “Vegetable oil” in processed food here is generally palm oil. If someone uses something other than palm oil they are at pains to specify it “canola oil” etc.
> 
> There is no current requirement to label the type of oil used except to state that it is ‘vegetable oill’



It's all a matter of scale, Penelopejane.
While Palm oil is used extensively for food, that is not its main use.
Of the total vegetable oil production, Palm accounts for about a quarter of all the oils, and about 2/3 of the Palm oil is used up by the chemical industry (lubricants, surfactants, fine chemicals, biofuel, etc...). Only 1/3 of the Palm oil is edible palm oil, and roughly half of it goes into livestock feed. 

For soybeans and rapeseed oils, the situation is inverted, that is most of them are used for food, and rest by the chemical industry.

This explains how much more complicated the chemical industry is. For example, we could shift the paradigm, and use palm oil only for food. The chemical industry will then consume more soybean and rapeseed oil for themselves, depleting the food uses of those two oils. On the other side, consumers will start complaining about the increased prices of soybean and rapeseed oils and they will look around, trying to find a cheaper alternative...
palm oil. :think:


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## BrewerGeorge (Jan 15, 2018)

Saponificarian said:


> I am about to offend some people but I think people that would not use palm in soap but would eat products made with Palm, use cream made with Palm derivatives are just hypocrites. Practice what you preach...
> 
> It brought tears to my eyes when I saw what was going on in Indonesia with the Orangutans and that is why I support a foundation like The Masarang Foundation in Indonesia who are doing something about it.
> 
> ...



Well said!  I'm sure I'm about to offend some people, but I think that veganism itself is a 1st world affectation that would fall by the wayside instantly in the face of ANY real deprivation.



snappyllama said:


> ...
> 
> If folks are going to classify things as non-vegan since animals were killed to grow those vegetables/trees... they are going to run out of anything to eat. Having spent time on farms during plowing/harvesting times... a lot of animals die. Waaay more than you'd think.
> ...



I came to this thread originally to post something like this.  Anybody ever run over a nest of baby rabbits with their lawnmower? It's pretty common.  Now multiply that times hundreds of thousands of acres of mice, moles, voles, etc living in the corn fields, bean fields, etc.  The idea that no animals are killed for our food is fiction.



lmosca said:


> ...
> Palm oil has the highest yield / acre of any other mass produced oil crop.
> We are talking about 3.5x the yield of coconut oil, or almost 7x the yield of soybean oil.
> That is, if we wanted to cut out completely palm oil production, we would have to free up 7x more landmass for soy cultivation. Or 3.5x for coconut production. ...



That's another awesome point.  This is a necessity right now, there is no viable alternative at the world scale.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 15, 2018)

@BrewerGeorge - I read some place that if the rest of the world consumed meat at the same quantity per capita as Americans, we'd have to triple our caloric production just to keep everybody at the same nutrition/food level as now. While I agree that strict vegetarianism is (mostly) a modern practice, our ancestors were pretty close to being vegetarian up until the Industrial Revolution or so, simply because most animals were needed for labor or to produce wool or milk or eggs. Medieval peasants actually had healthier (though not plentiful) diets b/c they were mostly eating plants and the food they ate was very fresh, vs nobility eating meat, milk, etc that was just this side of spoiled (which is why they used a lot of rich sauces).


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## earlene (Jan 15, 2018)

BrewerGeorge said:


> I came to this thread originally to post something like this.  Anybody ever run over a nest of baby rabbits with their lawnmower? It's pretty common.



Yes, I have, with our riding lawn mower, and it was horrifying to me the first time it happened.  They just seem to run in the wrong direction when they go to run away.  I hated that part of mowing here in the midwest.  We have lots of rabbits and I love them; don't want to kill them.   I used to mow my son's lawn after they moved, but they have tenants now, so I don't have to anymore, thankfully.  My husband does our lawn and rarely tells me if there are problems unless a tire goes flat.


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## BrewerGeorge (Jan 15, 2018)

dixiedragon said:


> @BrewerGeorge - I read some place that if the rest of the world consumed meat at the same quantity per capita as Americans, we'd have to triple our caloric production just to keep everybody at the same nutrition/food level as now. While I agree that strict vegetarianism is (mostly) a modern practice, our ancestors were pretty close to being vegetarian up until the Industrial Revolution or so, simply because most animals were needed for labor or to produce wool or milk or eggs. Medieval peasants actually had healthier (though not plentiful) diets b/c they were mostly eating plants and the food they ate was very fresh, vs nobility eating meat, milk, etc that was just this side of spoiled (which is why they used a lot of rich sauces).



I don't disagree that lacto-ovo vegetarianism with occasional meat is the best diet.  And I have no problem with traditional vegetarianism, either.  I'm talking strictly of veganism as it is practiced now.  Very telling, to me, is the fact that there are NO traditional vegan diets all throughout history or the world. Even Jains eat dairy.  The simple fact is that without modern supplements and/or transportation of foods it is impossible to eat a healthy vegan diet.  It simply cannot be done.

And I think you're romanticizing the medieval peasant diet greatly.  It is generally agreed that hunter-gatherers ate much more varied and healthy diets than modern man, but agriculture changed that.  Variety disappeared to be replaced with staple grains, and the medieval period was the nadir of this phenomenon.  I'm talking about maybe your 9th through 14th century European peasant here.  From slightly after harvest in the fall through early spring crops coming in, they lived almost exclusively on carbohydrates.  Whatever grains grew well in their area, and hopefully some peas for protein if it would grow.  The things they were able to salt, pickle or somehow otherwise store helped them maintain some level of vitamins through those months, but things like scurvy and rickets were real dangers.


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## alatos (Jan 15, 2018)

New to the forum,

I have to say I'm impressed at the civility of this thread... may be the most civil thing I've ever read concerning veganism/animal rights online. I see where the OP is coming from: can you really count a product as "vegan" (which usually carries the connotation of putting animal welfare first) that necessitates the killing of many animals to produce? Seems hard to argue with that, because even if it isn't in the "letter of the law" when defining veganism, it's certainly in the spirit of the law for most vegans.

But then, what product would be vegan? Most any vegetable produced on a market scale means measures taken against pests. Pests could be worms, birds, deer, rabbits, beetles, or any other number of animals farmers need to control for. And what about organic fertilizers? Organic fertilizers contain many animal by-products (bone, feces, etc). And what about the countless animals killed when fields are plowed and harvested? It's a very tricky topic. I don't have a good answer, and I'm certainly not accusing anyone of anything here. This has been one of the most "grey-area" topics I've come across.


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## Primrose (Jan 15, 2018)

I think the thing is, regardless of the strict definition of vegan or vegetarian, there are people within these communities that have their own ethics and take it to their own extent. Certainly vegans anyway. I have vegan friends who own and ride horses; other vegans are totally opposed to riding horses. I mentioned on a different thread that I know some vegans who wish to use my goat milk soap, because I own the goats, they know they are looked after and treated well etc. though other vegans wouldn't agree at all, this doesn't make them any less vegans in my mind or theirs. There's also a soapmaker with a blog who is vegetarian, but uses lard (or tallow, I cant quite remember) in her soaps, because its about utilizing every part of the animal, using something that would otherwise be considered a waste product, and the animals are going to be killed anyway for their meat - not slaughtered specifically for their lard. 

Definitely a grey area


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