# A Crisis of Quality - EO or FO?



## John Harris (Aug 6, 2021)

Many years ago, I belonged to a soapers group that seriously looked down on the use of FOs. Natural ONLY for them.  I think that experience left me with PTSD.

I am looking at buying some scents now and am painfully finding that the costs of EOs are REALLY high! Hundreds of dollars even!  (e.g. Sandalwood, Frankincense, etc.)

I was also perusing the FO sections and of course found the prices far more reasonable. I want to use them but it is violating some deep seated avoidance in me. And then there is the question of "Who knows what the FO's interpretation of the scent is going to smell like?"

What do you guys think/do?

(Just last night I sold some soap to a woman who only bought "Natural" things.  Though she was so taken with the Bay Laurel FO, she bought one anyway.)


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## MrsZ (Aug 6, 2021)

When I started soaping, I felt the same way. No FO for me, I only wanted natural essential oils. I read a bunch of the threads on here discussing the FO vs EO controversy. It interested me to realize that many essential oils are unsafe in even small quantities, while FO's created for soap use are tested and designed to be safe while used within the recommended usage rates.

I still have a few essential oils that I love, tea tree and lavender for example, but for the most part I use fragrance oils now.

I love Nurture Soap's fragrance oils. Many I've tried have a very natural smell, not chemically at all. Some even say in the description that they use essential oils in certain specific fragrances.

I found that FO's are less expensive, and the scent is stronger and longer lasting.

Now I'm not going to even pretend to be knowledgeable about soaping, I haven't been at it very long. But that's what made up my mind to try FO's.

Also, many commercial perfumes give me migraines, so I was very concerned that fragrance oils would too. So far, no problem though.


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## Misschief (Aug 6, 2021)

I use both, depending on the soap I'm making. I love lavender EO in soap, as well as Patchouli and a few others. I find, though, that the essential oils don't last as long in soap and whatever therapeutic benefits they might have when used in leave in products, in soap those benefits all but disappear because of the lye monster.

As well, I sell and not all EO's sell. 

Like MrsZ, over the years a lot of artificial fragrances triggered migraines so I was pretty leery about using fragrance oils. I've been using them now for about 4 years with no issues.

Incidentally, I found a Sandalwood FO that I really like (from Candora) and the soap I make with it sells really well.


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## John Harris (Aug 7, 2021)

Misschief said:


> Incidentally, I found a Sandalwood FO that I really like (from Candora) and the soap I make with it sells really well.



Thanks for the tip. Candora is Canadian I think and I am in Montreal. Could be a Sandalwood FO purchase in my future!


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## Ford (Aug 7, 2021)

Been using FO's from beginning. Makes no sense. To spend money on EO,s. If more people have problems with them. And they fade quicker than FO,s.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 7, 2021)

Right there with you John!  I started out EOs only but then made the switch due to cost - and some of the awesome fragrances you can get.  But i still use Eos in all my soap, along with the FOs.  Rose FO is always anchored with Patchouli EO for example - you don't smell the patchouli, but it's in there.  I generally blend with citrus EOs to help slow trace and also because they are cheap.  I still make some soap that is EO only, but I charge more for those.


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## Vicki C (Aug 7, 2021)

I used to only use EOs and have been transitioning to FOs, but tiptoeing - still learning about acceleration, ricing, discoloration. Also, I’m never sure what a FO will actually smell like from the online description - but I’m learning that the smell out of the bottle isn’t necessarily the smell in the cured soap. I really dislike scented laundry detergent and dryer sheets. Peppermint, litsea, lemongrass, eucalyptus, and lavender EOs are all pretty cheap and stick reasonably well, so I’ll keep using those. On the other hand, I recently bought “Rose Garden“ FO from New Directions Aromatics and it does not have an artificial smell - really smells like roses - accelerates a tiny bit but you can work with it.


Misschief said:


> I use both, depending on the soap I'm making. I love lavender EO in soap, as well as Patchouli and a few others. I find, though, that the essential oils don't last as long in soap and whatever therapeutic benefits they might have when used in leave in products, in soap those benefits all but disappear because of the lye monster.


hahaha ”Lye monster”


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## Mistrael (Aug 7, 2021)

I love EOs but some are dangerous, unpleasant on my skin, or out of my price range. I love real sandalwood, but it's expensive and endangered, so I use FOs. I love mint, but it's no good on my skin, so FO to the rescue! But I also have an unnecessarily good sense of smell, allergies, & chronic migraine so I have to be careful & selective with quantity & quality.


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## soapmaker (Aug 7, 2021)

I use both, but I always buy phthalate free F.O.s. Some of my customers request only E.O.s. Dark Patchouli is something I use a lot of, regardless of cost. Just love it. I dread the thought of trying to find a good F.O. replacement. I guess I go more by what my customers want. As for me, it's a wash off product, so I can't see an issue.


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## John Harris (Aug 7, 2021)

We should create (or maybe it already exists?) an FO "vault" of tried and true FOs - a separate thread with the FO name and the place of purchase, and maybe a little description if you wanted. One for Americans and one for Canadians would be nice.


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## dibbles (Aug 7, 2021)

John Harris said:


> We should create (or maybe it already exists?) an FO "vault" of tried and true FOs - a separate thread with the FO name and the place of purchase, and maybe a little description if you wanted. One for Americans and one for Canadians would be nice.











						SMF Fragrance Oil Review
					

Getting started  Soap Making Forum (SMF) Fragrance Oil Review How to use the links below: Hover over an underlined link with your cursor until a little popup box appears above your cursor. Click on the box to go to that location.  Getting started?,<a href="#gid=1719085749">New user tips</a>,Check...




					docs.google.com
				




As for myself, I use both. I like the variety I can get with FOs, but I do also use EOs as well. I've pared my EOs down to only those that stick well and aren't outrageously priced. I don't sell, but if I did I would probably offer some soaps made with EOs only and some (most) made with FOs or a combination of the two. I understand the desire for some people to use EOs only. To each their own. EOs aren't without their own set of considerations though, eco speaking.


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## penelopejane (Aug 7, 2021)

I started out using EOs but I reacted so badly to them (allergies) that I gave up and figured there are enough people out their who are the same or who don’t care.  I only use phthalate free FOs though.  I have a few fragrance free soaps too which are popular.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 7, 2021)

John Harris said:


> Though she was so taken with the Bay Laurel FO, she bought one anyway.)


There's your answer!   More than anything else, fragrance sells!

I used EOs exclusively for 4 years until I picked up some wholesale customers. One in particular offered 3 scents --  "Unscented", Lavender EO, White Tea & Amber FO. The FO was the most popular, Lavender was less so, and the one without any scent languished until someone with that preference bought it. There's no reason to tie yourself to one approach when you can do all 3.

FOs come in handy when doing a seasonal "limited edition". Every Spring we would put out WSP's *Blooming Tulips FO 390*. It almost always sold out by the second market.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 7, 2021)

Vicki C said:


> I’m never sure what a FO will actually smell like from the online description - but I’m learning that the smell out of the bottle isn’t necessarily the smell in the cured soap.


SO true!


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## TheGecko (Aug 7, 2021)

I started with EO, but found that the scent faded with time.  I tried 'anchoring' with Kaolin Clay...it seemed to help a little.  Then there is the price...a 7 oz bottle of Lavender 40/42 EO at Brambleberry is $31.75, while an 8 oz bottle of Lavender FO is $21.04.  For me, I'm allergic to lavender on the whole, but I can stand BB's Lavender FO.

Other considerations.....

Sodium Hydroxide destroys pretty much any 'benefit' you may get from a particular EO.  A good example of this is Tea Tree; it's great as a hand sanitizer, insect repellent, natural deodorant, natural antiseptic, fights acne, helps with nail fungus and so on and so forth.  But in soap...it just smells 'medicinal'.  Using "Tea Tree Soap" won't provide any more benefit that what plain ole soap would do on its own.

You have to be really, really, really careful with using EOs.  A good example of this is Cinnamon...smells define, but enough of the oil survives via Super Fat, that if you use too much, it can be really irritating to the skin.  

And not all EOs are good for soap making.  I have a friend who is really into EOs and she gave me a whole bunch of them to make soap with for her.  I found that while some of them could be used in soap making, the majority of them couldn't and so I retuned them to her.  It was like my sister who gave me a beautiful box set of Micas and I greatly appreciated the thought behind them, but I can't use them because they aren't 'body safe'.

As for attitudes of certain peoples...screw them.  My Regular Soap can be labeled a 'vegan', but I don't...it's just soap.  And if you don't like that I make Goat Milk Soap or Lard Soap...that's YOUR problem, not mine...I make soap.  If you don't like that I use Palm Oil or Micas or FOs...again, that is your problem, not mine.  I do my best to make quality soap for the majority, not the minority and it's okay, because there are plenty of specialized soap makers that do.  Plenty of room for all of us.


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## Cat&Oak (Aug 7, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> As for attitudes of certain peoples...screw them.  My Regular Soap can be labeled a 'vegan', but I don't...it's just soap.  And if you don't like that I make Goat Milk Soap or Lard Soap...that's YOUR problem, not mine...I make soap.  If you don't like that I use Palm Oil or Micas or FOs...again, that is your problem, not mine.  I do my best to make quality soap for the majority, not the minority.


Preach it sister that is exactly how I feel as well  I don't make soap specific. No Vegan, Anti Palm, Anti fragrance oil. Just really good enjoyable soap with essential oils and fragrance oils. There are plenty of other sellers that they can buy from if they want specific soap.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 7, 2021)

I guess I'm the 'specific' soap seller here then.  I do vegan, palm free soap only.  But for me, that's my point of difference which gives me a marketing edge.  However I do have many people come back to me and say that my soap lasts well, and smells better than my competitors, so that's a good thing in terms of repeat sales.


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## John Harris (Aug 7, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I guess I'm the 'specific' soap seller here then.  I do vegan, palm free soap only.  But for me, that's my point of difference which gives me a marketing edge.  However I do have many people come back to me and say that my soap lasts well, and smells better than my competitors, so that's a good thing in terms of repeat sales.


Oh no!   I feel my soap neuroses surfacing again. In my old soap group from many years ago, it was NO animal fats, NO non-botanical colorants, NO fragrance oils, and more.  Those were my formative years in soaping! Since I've joined this group of freewheelers, I've violated all the rules!  I need to do some soul searching.


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## Cat&Oak (Aug 7, 2021)

John Harris said:


> Oh no!  I need to do some soul searching.


Just do what YOU like to do John, we can't be everything to everybody and if you try you end up making no one happy. Do the fragrances and styles and types of soap that you resonate with ❤


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## John Harris (Aug 7, 2021)

Cat&Oak said:


> Just do what YOU like to do John, we can't be everything to everybody and if you try you end up making no one happy. Do the fragrances and styles and types of soap that you resonate with ❤


I know Cat.  I'm just teasing people.  Thanks for your reply though!


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## Cat&Oak (Aug 7, 2021)

John Harris said:


> I know Cat.  I'm just teasing people.  Thanks for your reply though!


Oh okay hahahaha


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## maryloucb (Aug 7, 2021)

I only use EOs. It's totally my personal preference, and I certainly don't expect everyone else to follow suit. For now I am trying to use all natural ingredients in my soap, and no palm oil. Again, personal preference. I do believe that there is a market for these types of soap, especially where I am. I enjoy finding combos of essential oils and seeing what lasts and what works together.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 8, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> that's my point of difference which gives me a marketing edge.


Good for you. I think finding that niche that sets you apart from the crowd is key to sales. As for my wholesale customers, one did only goat milk soap and other B & B products, one catered to the wool/knitting/lanolin crowd, and one was a sweet lady who inherited a sugar plantation in Louisianna and owned a storefront on the town square.


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## Orebma (Aug 8, 2021)

dibbles said:


> SMF Fragrance Oil Review
> 
> 
> Getting started  Soap Making Forum (SMF) Fragrance Oil Review How to use the links below: Hover over an underlined link with your cursor until a little popup box appears above your cursor. Click on the box to go to that location.  Getting started?,<a href="#gid=1719085749">New user tips</a>,Check...
> ...



Wow the FO spreadsheet is amazing - thank you to whoever took all that time to collate the data!


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## TheGecko (Aug 8, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I guess I'm the 'specific' soap seller here then. I do vegan, palm free soap only. But for me, that's my point of difference which gives me a marketing edge.



I hope you didn't take it as a negative, because it wasn't meant that way.  It's like this...when I buy Halloween candy, I buy stuff "I" like because it's hit and miss in our neighborhood and I don't want to be stuck with ton of candy I won't eat.  I feel the same way soap making...make what YOU want to make because at the end of the day, you could be the only one using it.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 8, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> I hope you didn't take it as a negative, because it wasn't meant that way.  It's like this...when I buy Halloween candy, I buy stuff "I" like because it's hit and miss in our neighborhood and I don't want to be stuck with ton of candy I won't eat.  I feel the same way soap making...make what YOU want to make because at the end of the day, you could be the only one using it.


No not at all  
"You add to the suffering of this world just as much when you take offence, as when you give offence" is one of the adages I live by.


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## Cat&Oak (Aug 8, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> No not at all
> "You add to the suffering of this world just as much when you take offence, as when you give offence" is one of the adages I live by.


That is so wise Kiwi I also meant no disrespect


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 8, 2021)

None taken 


Cat&Oak said:


> That is so wise Kiwi I also meant no disrespect


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