# What is the difference between liquid soap and shampoo



## candicec003 (Mar 10, 2017)

I've never made liquid soap before, but i've watched a few videos and read a little about it. I have questions! lol

Why do people use both types of lye? Do you have to use both types? 
I currently make a cold process pet shampoo bar, and my client wants to switch to liquid soap because it seems to be what everyone wants. 
Ive learned that if you use unsaponifibles that you will get a cloudy liquid soap. Im not too concerned with the color, but if you make your liquid soap at 0% superfat, wont all the oils saponify? Do you HAVE to neutralize liquid soap? is this part of the normal process?

I need a recipe for shampoo/liquid soap that is more on the natural side, and my client wants to put neem oil in it. Is this possible with the liquid style? I haven't found any info on neem oil in liquid soap recipes.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 10, 2017)

Here's a great thread on Liquid Soap.  You need KOH to make liquid soap.  Shampoo is not liquid soap.  The PH is too high for hair or dogs but then so is CP.  My vet said never use it on my dogs. 

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974

It's a lot of reading but so very worth the information.


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## IrishLass (Mar 10, 2017)

candicec003 said:


> I've never made liquid soap before, but i've watched a few videos and read a little about it. I have questions! lol
> 
> Why do people use both types of lye? Do you have to use both types?


 
Some use both lyes (mostly KOH with just a little titch of NaOH to help speed things to the paste stage), but the definitive answer to your question is no- you do not have to use both lyes. For what it's worth, most folks (such as myself) only use KOH.




candicec003 said:


> I currently make a cold process pet shampoo bar, and my client wants to switch to liquid soap because it seems to be what everyone wants.
> Ive learned that if you use unsaponifibles that you will get a cloudy liquid soap. Im not too concerned with the color, but if you make your liquid soap at 0% superfat, wont all the oils saponify?


 
Yes, they will all saponify, but remember that unsaponifiable materials by their nature will remain unsaponified regardless of how low the superfat %. That's not to say you can't get a clear soap with unsaponifiable material present, though- because you can. It all depends on how much/many unsaponifiables are present. Also- cloudy soap can also result from using fats with lots of stearic acid in them, such as butters and/or straight-up stearic acid itself.



candicec003 said:


> Do you HAVE to neutralize liquid soap? is this part of the normal process?


 
With the method I use (there's more than one method of liquid soap-making), I never have to neutralize. If you use the Failor method, though, which employs a severe negative superfat up front- then yes- you'll need to neutralize. But if you use any of the newer methods that many of us here on the forum use- neutralization is completely unnecessary. 



candicec003 said:


> I need a recipe for shampoo/liquid soap that is more on the natural side, and my client wants to put neem oil in it. Is this possible with the liquid style? I haven't found any info on neem oil in liquid soap recipes.


 
To say that there are a lot of mixed opinions over whether 'tis a good thing or not to use lye-based soap (whether liquid or solid) on human hair or animal hair is quite the understatement.  I will leave that to the experts, but for what it's worth, lye-based shampoos have ruined many a head of hair over time by slowly damaging the hair at the root level where you can't see the damage right away. Many former pro-lye-based shampooers have over time changed their tune and have become outspoken anti-lye-based shampooers because of how badly the lye-based shampoo ended up damaging their hair over the long haul. Our Carolyn, who is a retired hairdresser can explain it better than I can. Hopefully she will chime in soon.


IrishLass


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## Dahila (Mar 10, 2017)

No lye soaps for hair, read about the hair on this blog ; http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/search?q=hair++soap


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 10, 2017)

candicec003 said:


> Why do people use both types of lye?  The NaOH boosts lather & thickens.
> Do you have to use both types? No.
> I currently make a cold process pet shampoo bar, and my client wants to switch to liquid soap. Post your recipe for suggestions for LS.
> if you use unsaponifibles that you will get a cloudy liquid soap. A few oils contain unsaponifiables that remain, even with 0% superfat. Olive oil, Avocado oil, cocoa butter come to mind. This is a good thing. Use in the correct amounts for clear results.
> ...


I've never used neem in LS. but I'm guessing it would be possible at 1%. Not sure. I would want to know what purpose it serves? Maybe you could use EOs instead?

HTH


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 10, 2017)

Dahila said:


> No lye soaps for hair, read about the hair on this blog



I don't want to start a brouhaha, but I can only speak from my experience. Fully saponified soap contains no lye, whether it's CP, HP, or LS. Also, LS has the advantage of an all-natural shampoo that doesn't contain detergents (and other nasties), which is what gives the commercial shampoo the ability to rinse squeaky clean rather quickly.

I love swiftcraftymonkey, she provides a wonderful service to the bath & body community, but it should be noted that the pH balance of the scalp can be restored with any number of clarifying rinses... lemon juice, vinegar, beer, and my personal favorite, lemon juice & parsley (for shine). End with a water rinse as cool as you can stand. This closes the hairshaft and prevents flyaways.

Oh, I almost forgot your Title question: What is the difference between LS and Shampoo?
Answer: There is no difference. If you go to Dr. Bronner's site, he's been around since the Hippy days and we used his LS for everything... body wash, shampoo, plus cleaning everything! There's a link on his site that tells you how to tackle every cleaning job with his basic castile soap. It's quite amazing. The same is true of the LS I make, altho I'm always trying different oils for different purposes. BTW (lardinator alert) our favorite hair and body wash is made with 50/50 lard/PKO with Peppermint EO for scent. It makes my hubby's white hair shine like the dickens!  Which reminds me, we're almost out. I need to go make some!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 10, 2017)

She meant soap that had been made with lye. Quicker to say "lye soap" than what I typed, but better than just saying "soap" as many people confuse that to include syndets.


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## Dahila (Mar 10, 2017)

ceemoor if you know a bit about hair you would know that hair and high ph (lye soaps) do not agree


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## Arimara (Mar 10, 2017)

Dahila said:


> ceemoor if you know a bit about hair you would know that hair and high ph (lye soaps) do not agree



Agreeing here and to say that there is no difference between a liquid soap and a shampoo is complete and utter baloney (spelling intentional). Shampoos are designed to be lower on the pH scale than lye based soaps and many of them are a great deal gentler than such soaps are.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 10, 2017)

Liquid soap and shampoo are two different animals. Liquor d Soap ph is too high for hair. There are some that do use it but many of us have tried and it failed terribly causing myself to cut my hair super short due to the damage. Many others here have suffered the same fate.  It's not pretty


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## candicec003 (Mar 10, 2017)

Neem oil is good at repelling pests and insects, and is good for skin and hair, thats why i use it in the pet shampoo bars. My recipe for this bar soap is as follows at 7% superfat
10.50 oz-76 degree organic coconut oil
10.50 oz- cold pressed organic olive oil
8.40 oz cold pressed grapeseed oil
5.04 oz neem oil
4.20 oz raw organic shea butter
3.36 oz castor oil
1.25 oz lemongrass essential oil
5.65 oz sodium hydroxide
13.86 oz distilled water
4 tsp diatomaceous earth
2 tsp kaolin clay
This recipe goes through gel phase and the ph level of this soap is 7


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## shunt2011 (Mar 10, 2017)

candicec003 said:


> Neem oil is good at repelling pests and insects, and is good for skin and hair, thats why i use it in the pet shampoo bars. My recipe for this bar soap is as follows at 7% superfat
> 10.50 oz-76 degree organic coconut oil
> 10.50 oz- cold pressed organic olive oil
> 8.40 oz cold pressed grapeseed oil
> ...




The ph can't be 7 or it won't be soap. Soap is 8.5-11 ph.  And need is great for a lot of things including break out prone skin.


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## candicec003 (Mar 10, 2017)

Its between 7 and 8 ph level. Not sure what you mean when you say it cant be soap if it has a 7 ph level.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 10, 2017)

It would break/separate.


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## kchaystack (Mar 10, 2017)

candicec003 said:


> Its between 7 and 8 ph level. Not sure what you mean when you say it cant be soap if it has a 7 ph level.



If you lower a soaps pH too low it will break down into a mushy mess.  I am not sure how you are measuring the pH, but pH strips pressed against the bar does not give you a real reading.  You need to make a 1% solution of soap to distilled water and then take a reading.  Same with a pH meter.  

Dr. Kevin Dunn has done extensive laboratory experiments, and has never been able to acidify (lower the pH) of soap.  YOu can see the results of his experiments here:

http://cavemanchemistry.com/scisoap/lectures.html

look at the lecture HSCG2015 that he gave at the Soap Guild conference in 2015.


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## Annfine (Mar 10, 2017)

Liquid soap and shampoo is the same to me. I shampoo my hair with Dr. Bronner's glycerin peppermint liquid soap.


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## candicec003 (Mar 10, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> If you lower a soaps pH too low it will break down into a mushy mess.  I am not sure how you are measuring the pH, but pH strips pressed against the bar does not give you a real reading.  You need to make a 1% solution of soap to distilled water and then take a reading.  Same with a pH meter.
> 
> Dr. Kevin Dunn has done extensive laboratory experiments, and has never been able to acidify (lower the pH) of soap.  YOu can see the results of his experiments here:
> 
> ...



It doesn't break or separate. I use distilled water and lather the soap up and test with PH test strips. It reads 7-8 PH every time.


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## kchaystack (Mar 10, 2017)

candicec003 said:


> It doesn't break or separate. I use distilled water and lather the soap up and test with PH test strips. It reads 7-8 PH every time.



That isn't a good test because your technique is flawed.  Take 1g of soap, dissolve it in 99g of water, and then measure it.  

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52371


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## candicec003 (Mar 10, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> That isn't a good test because your technique is flawed.  Take 1g of soap, dissolve it in 99g of water, and then measure it.
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52371



Ok i will try this thank you. Ill post what i find out


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## Dahila (Mar 11, 2017)

Your soap is a least 10 Ph , strips are INaccurate,  Dogs are even more sensitive to high ph than people, we lose the shiny healthy hair,  They get infections and irritations,  skin infection in dogs will take a lot of $$$$ out of your pocket


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 11, 2017)

Annfine said:


> Liquid soap and shampoo is the same to me. I shampoo my hair with Dr. Bronner's glycerin peppermint liquid soap.


      :bunny:    Thank you, Ann. That's my point exactly. 



Dahila said:


> ceemoor if you know a bit about hair you would know that hair and high ph (lye soaps) do not agree



With all due respect, I do know a bit about hair, Dahlia. I’ve done the research. While you’re quite correct, it’s true that pH for hair is lower than for skin, there’s simply no way  to get there, as I understand it, unless I go the syndet route. Ugh. I got into soapmaking to get away from syndets! 

Over many years of T & E (Trial & Error) I’ve had the good fortune to develop LS  with pH 8-8.5, made with oils/fats + water + KOH + citric acid solution that is gentle enough for every day use. YAY! Good on me! LOL



Arimara said:


> Agreeing here and to say that there is no difference between a liquid soap and a shampoo is complete and utter baloney (spelling intentional). Shampoos are designed to be lower on the pH scale than lye based soaps and many of them are a great deal gentler than such soaps are.



Baloney, eh? LOL Mea culpa, Arimara. I was speaking within the context of the question. To me, and this is just me, I make LS AND I use it to shampoo my hair, among other things -- like putting it in a foamer at the sink to wash dishes; adding an ounce or so to 32 oz spray bottle to clean the range top and other kitchen appliances; for laundry, and so on. The only  thing that I don’t use it for is my wood floors, stair rail and cabinets. For that I use my Murphys Oil Soap dupe, handmade from scratch with no syndets, just like the original. 



shunt2011 said:


> ...many of us have tried and it failed terribly causing myself to cut my hair super short due to the damage. Many others here have suffered the same fate. It's not pretty



Oh my goodness! I’m SO sorry to hear that, Shunt. At least, now I understand why there’s an anti-homemade-shampoo-soap bias here. Thanks!

NOTE: All natural shampoo -- both hard bars and LS -- takes a bit of getting used to. It took about a year or so before my hair adapted to my CP shampoo bars -- I even went back to store-bought shampoo 2-3 times during the journey. The transition to LS was waaaay easier! During that period, to protect my hair from the negative effects of homemade shampoo, I also developed a conditioner, clarifying pre-shampoo, and rinses to remove soap scum and to restore the pH balance to the acid mantle of the scalp. Now my hair is at the point where I don’t even bother with the extras most of the time, altho they were a boon along the journey.


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## Arimara (Mar 11, 2017)

CeeMoor said:


> Baloney, eh? LOL Mea culpa, Arimara. I was speaking within the context of the question. To me, and this is just me, I make LS AND I use it to shampoo my hair, among other things -- like putting it in a foamer at the sink to wash dishes; adding an ounce or so to 32 oz spray bottle to clean the range top and other kitchen appliances; for laundry, and so on. The only  thing that I don’t use it for is my wood floors, stair rail and cabinets. For that I use my Murphys Oil Soap dupe, handmade from scratch with no syndets, just like the original.



I stand by what I said- shampoo's and soaps are NOT the same thing, ESPECIALLY since you use a lye based soap as a shampoo. I don't think there are any shampoos out there that are not syndets by nature but having used both natural shampoos and syndets, I prefer the syndets. I'm not going to rely on some process of patience to get my hair acclimated to a product. If my body initially rejects a product, which has happened with both natural and syndet shampoos, I will count my losses. I'm far too sensitive to some ingredients to risk my health and many of the natural hair shampoos and conditioners have actually done me more harm than the syndets I use for my hair now. Since soaps like Dr. Bronner's are especially drying, I don't even think of them these days.


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## IrishLass (Mar 11, 2017)

Dahila said:


> strips are accurate


 

Woops- I think you meant to type inaccurate. 

Candice- if you are using paper strips, just know that they are notoriously inaccurate when it comes to testing lye-based soap because of its surfactant nature- it messes with the indicator chemicals on the strips and can throw the results off by as much as 2 to 3 points. Here is a very good article to read on the subject: http://www.millersoap.com/phtome.html

If your strips ever tell you that your soap has a pH of 7- you can be certain that the soap is messing with the indicator chemicals on them and you are getting faulty readings. The scientific definition of lye-based soap is an "alkaline salt of a fatty acid", which means that the pH will always bottom out on the alkaline side of the pH scale. On average, the pH of properly made, well cured soap ranges anywhere from about 9 to 11, although it can be a little higher or lower than that....but it will never be 7 without separating and ceasing to be soap.

If by testing the pH your goal is to determine the safety of your soap, it really won't tell you all that much in that regard. Soap can have as high of a pH of 12.36 and still be safe and non-irritating, and on the flip-side have a pH of 10.36 and be very irritating according to dermatological irritability index tests done on lye-based soap. The most that pH will tell you about your lye-based soap is that it is alkaline- which is already a known factor. The best way to test the safety of your soap is by applying the tongue/zap test. It's simple, takes just two seconds, and you don't have to buy any equipment to do it. 


IrishLass


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 11, 2017)

Arimara said:


> I stand by what I said- shampoo's and soaps are NOT the same thing,


I agree, Arimara. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.


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## candicec003 (Mar 11, 2017)

OK so I just did the pH test using the suggested method of 1g soap dissolved in 99g of distilled water and the reading was a 8-9ph level.


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## IrishLass (Mar 11, 2017)

That's much more realistic. 


IrishLass


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## candicec003 (Mar 11, 2017)

I think im starting to wrap my head around the liquid soap making methods, but, can you superfat a liquid soap after youve made the paste and diluted it by adding more oils? or can you dilute the paste with only water? could you use maybe aloe vera juice or something? or is it strictly water for dilution?


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## Arimara (Mar 11, 2017)

candicec003 said:


> I think im starting to wrap my head around the liquid soap making methods, but, can you superfat a liquid soap after youve made the paste and diluted it by adding more oils? You can increase your superfat for your paste but it will involve other ingredients to prevent your oils from floating on the top of your soap.or can you dilute the paste with only water? could you use maybe aloe vera juice or something? or is it strictly water for dilution?unless you want to use a preservative to keep the nasties from forming, it's strongly advised you stick to water for dilution. Anything aside from water will mean food for the microorganisms that can grow in soap.



I replied in blue. Hope it helps.


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## IrishLass (Mar 11, 2017)

candicec003 said:


> I think im starting to wrap my head around the liquid soap making methods, but, can you superfat a liquid soap after youve made the paste and diluted it by adding more oils?


 
Yes, you can, but you will need to add a solubizer/emulsifier along with it to keep it from separating out. When I superfat my creamy cocoa/shea liquid soap with meadowfoam seed oil after dilution, I use PS80 for this task.



candicec003 said:


> or can you dilute the paste with only water? could you use maybe aloe vera juice or something? or is it strictly water for dilution?


 
I agree 100% with what Arimara said in response, I stick to only using distilled water when diluting mine.


IrishLass


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 12, 2017)

Hiya Candice, I'm sorry I've arrived so late to this party! I've taken the liberty of moving your recipe to a new thread entitled _"CP BAR TO CP LS"_. I also posted two new topics in the LS Forum covering (1) _Cold Process LS for Beginners_ (which we will be using) and (2) _What to Expect from Various Oils used in LS (to show where I'm coming from)_. In addition to Irish Lass's excellent advice above, and others, we can address superfatting when we get to the dilution phase. Lots to learn! But I'm going to try to keep it simple!


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