# Soap without Grapefruit Seed Extract???!!



## yamalimama (Apr 5, 2013)

It seems as though Grapefruit Seed extract has ceased to exist on this planet.:shock:  Not even the company that makes it (NurtiBiotic) can get it to me. Any ideas WHY? Or any other companies my Google bubble prevents me from finding? 
 That's not my question really.  I Use GSE to quicken the trace process . It has reduced trace time from 3 hours to 20 minutes.  Any ideas?? I have heard of Rosemary Oil Extract....anyone have any experience with this?  Does it add a scent to the soaps?  Color change? How strong? Does it alter the recipe?  Cost effective? 
My soap making and thus business have come to a screeching halt.  roblem:
 I appreciate any and all responses.  Thanks!


----------



## Genny (Apr 5, 2013)

http://www.brambleberry.com/Grapefruit-Seed-Extract-P3445.aspx
https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Grapefruit-Seed-Extract.html
http://fromnaturewithlove.com/soap/product.asp?product_id=OTHGSE


----------



## MaitriBB (Apr 5, 2013)

It takes you 3 hours to come to trace?  Yikes!  My basic recipe comes to trace within 5 minutes.  Are you using a stick blender?

I assume that you do CP soap - I never use GSE in CP soap as I don't feel that it needs a preservative.  If you're only using it to reduce your trace time, consider changing your recipe to one that traces more quickly.


----------



## yamalimama (Apr 5, 2013)

Thank you for the links Genny. I appreciate it. 

Maitri,
Thank you for the response. Before I started using GSE my tracing time (stirring with a DeWalt drill paint mixer) took about 2-3 hours. Looking back, yeah, it was a bit crazy, but that was a super soft extra virgin olive oil base batch (60-70% olive oil). I bought 2 bottles (32 oz each) for $110 and it lasted almost 2 years. Not bad, but with a business I have grown into 20-50 lb batches I have been trying to get more. I liked the Nutribiotic brand and I found it to be a lot chea However, while I was using gse my recipe was 40% hard oil and 60% soft oil (it still is) and my tracing time was 10-15 minutes (still using a drill mixer), without it I my current recipe takes an hour to stir. Mmmm. I am just trying to figure out what works and what does not. :smile:
What kind of recipe do you use for it to trace so quickly without gse? If I could, I would like to eliminate it entirely, due to expense, but you are right, if I only use it for the sake of tracing...I should try to do without or adjust my recipe. 
Thanks again!
~Emma


----------



## maya (Apr 5, 2013)

My recipes has 60% soft oils and comes to trace in 10 or 15 minutes. Have you considered a stick blender?


----------



## Evik (Apr 17, 2013)

Hi Emma, 

if I were you, to accelerate the trace I would try:
- water discount 
- put in my recipe 10% of castor oil
- another trick recommended by Susan Miller Cavitch is to use uncleaned pots with already finished soap scrapes - these help emulsify and accelerate the reaction. I would probably not use scrapes of old soap,only if they are of the same recipe (color and scent) and probably dissolve them prior to mixing in lye.

Evik


----------



## judymoody (Apr 17, 2013)

Camden Grey also carried GSE.  As has been said earlier 1) soap doesn't need a preservative 2) GSE is not effective as a preservative.  Rosemary Oleoresin is an antioxidant and will retard oxidation of your base oils.  It is not a preservative either.

But your question is about trace.  I have never heard of GSE accelerating trace.  My base recipe is about 50/50 hard/soft oils and it traces in minutes.  You might try using pomace olive oil or upping your castor.  I have also found PKO to trace more quickly than CO.

Are you taking a water discount?  If you're using full water, that would slow things down.  You could also try soaping hotter.

If you sell, I would be leery of using the trick recommended by Cavitch mentioned above.  I'm a bit skeptical about whether it works or not.


----------



## yamalimama (Apr 19, 2013)

Evik and judymoody, thank you for your replies.  I appreciate it.

I do use the near-maximum recommended water amount. For a batch with 240 ounces of oil (my usual) I use 72 - 80 ounces of water. Again, it is the maximum reccomended amount... I use the Majestic Mountain Sage lye calculator. The only reason I am afraid to reduce my water amount is because I am afraid it will mess up my volumes with my mold and with such a large batch I am afraid to experiment in that area! All of my recipes are calculated to a T and with 20+ different scents and recipes....well, you know what I mean...I guess I am just afraid to find out that maybe I should recalcuate everything (that would only be if my volumes got messed up I guess). 

Perhaps if I reduce the water should I get a a more "effective" cure time? Right now my soaps are hard, yet melt quickly after a 6 week cure time. Does anyone else have this? How long do you cure and what are your bars like as soon as your sure time is up?  I am working towards having most of my products shampoo bars versus regular natural soap, so the softness/hardness of bars, I think, is especially important. Nothing more luxurious than a using a shampoo bar that has cured for over a year, right?

I took Genny's links and bought some GSE to get me by until I can, well, maybe recalculate recipes...not sure. Again, I am just dreading the idea of refiguring all of the recipes that I just recently and finally got organized. If I must than I shall, but for now, for the soaps I have to make this week to increase inventory I feel that experimenting must wait. This week I myst move onto...well, new scents that take, well I guess, some e-x-p-e-r-i-m-e-n-t-i-n-g.  Haha!

The soap scrapes trick sounds neat and I can understand why it might work for small batches. Very cool.

Castor oil...yes I usually have 10 percent and higher.
Extra Virgin Olive oil...that is all I use....that is a pretty important thing to note, but use at the most 40 percent and that is in one of my soft batches. I noticed that my soap turned out grainy when I used a high percentage of POMACE olive oil, so I stopped using it for awhile. I think the extra virgin has a higher quality too, but that is just my personal preference.

I will have to look into stickblending. I am currently using my Dad's cord mixing drill (I am the daughter of a contractor  ) and it has worked pretty well thus far with the drywall "mud" mixing attachment. Yes, it is good for now.

Thank you for all your suggestions - I really appreciate it! I will look into all the things you have mentioned. 
A fellow soaper,
Emma
Yamali Naturals


----------



## bodhi (Apr 26, 2013)

yamalimama, which mud mixer are you using?


----------



## new12soap (Apr 27, 2013)

I can't offer any advice about where to find GSE, except to agree that it isn't a preservative and CP soap doesn't actually need it, but I have heard of people using mixers and drill attachments and it taking a looooooooooong time to trace.  If your production levels allow for the expense (and congrats on doing so well), invest in a commercial stick blender.  You will absolutely not believe the difference in trace time. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/war...campaign=PLA&gclid=CK3thMiE67YCFUPc4AodjnYAwA  or just scale your recipe down to a smaller batch and use a regular kitchen stick blender and see the difference.  With a recipe that is 40% hard oils it shouldn't be taking hours, or even half an hour to come to trace. JM2C


----------



## bodhi (Apr 27, 2013)

bodhi said:


> yamalimama, which mud mixer are you using?



Before i forget, and in case i miss a response if you post one, check your mixer.  many of them are aluminum and/or steel or zinc or chrome or some other un named metal coating aluminum.  if it gets any powdery residue on it, toss it, its reacting with the lye.  If its a really old one it may be solid steel but check for a manufacturers mark so you can ask them.  If its not solid steel this could be what is slowing down your trace  and putting other metal salts in your soap.

You may be having a hard time finding gse because there is a problem with products being sold as gse.  unless you are buying the essential oil distilled from the seeds in steel or glass bottles, what you are getting is not the extract of grapefruit seeds.  Products called gse are a man made synthetic preservative that once started out as grapefruit seeds.  they contain diphenol hydrobenzene or benzethonium chloride, triclosan, etc.  and are industrial strength preservatives and antimicrobials.  

Hopefully these are not the problems and just fyi's.


----------



## judymoody (Apr 27, 2013)

I would try reducing your water by a small percentage for each batch and see how it goes.  The water will evaporate over time anyway so the weight of your cured bars shouldn't change.  I'm amazed your bars don't warp.  I use 33 percent lye solution (about 1:2 ratio of lye to water) which gives me enough time to play but produces a nice firm bar that cures out well.

If your soap dissolves fast in use, it might not be just water-related.  Your mix of oils could be a factor.  Olive oil, for example, produces very soluble soap, no matter how long it cures.


----------



## yamalimama (Apr 29, 2013)

*Thank you thank you*

Thank you for all your responses. I appreciate it.

Bodhi - I am using a Bosch cord drill with drywall mud attachment, something like this http://www.toolbarn.com/kraft-dc362.html. My pot is stainless steel (brand new 2 years ago - great condition) and I have no white powdery stuff. Your info on GSE is interesting. So much for all natural soap - right?! Ahhh, I will probably stop using it. After all my trace is down to 10-15 minutes now on a normal day and I think it is because I use harder oils in balance with soft oils like olive. It took awhile to figure out the balance to the point that I like it, but I think I got it. 

new12soap - thanks for the stick blender advice. I will have to look into that even just for the sake of 25-50 lb batches. Do stick blenders "whip" soap? That is the only reason I have originally shied away from that idea, but now, not so much - I might switch to that method. 

JudyMoody - Thanks for the idea. I will do that. I think it might help, I mean, really, what is the harm in trying a little bit at a time? My lye to water ratio is is 3 to 7 (usually 30 lye to 72 water), so it wouldn't be a big deal to lose 16 oz and try the ratio you are using. My olive oil amounts are pretty good. I can think of the percentages right now, but I know that it is reduced from what I previously had it at (50-60%). I can't imagine how people have the patience for 100% castile soap. Tried it once, took 2-3 hours to trace and didn't harden for months. Yikes. I think I'll stick to my balanced hard/soft oils recipe. 

Thanks again!
~Emma


----------



## bodhi (Apr 29, 2013)

Yay, sounds like you are on the right track with the trace!  Yeah, that gse thing is a b*.  Id call the manufacturer on that mixer just to be sure, but glad your trace is going better.


----------

