# goat milk liquid soap questions



## jenlwhi2 (Dec 18, 2017)

I've done a few trial batches of liquid soap but they need some work before I figure it out. I want to make it with cp method to avoid scorching the milk. I add my lye to the milk (rather than later in the trace stage)I will be using distilled water for dilution.
 My questions are: 
1) does liquid soap this way need a preservative? 
2)whats  the typical shelf life of liquid soap?
3)do i need a ph  tester or is zap testing the paste enough?
Any extra tips are welcome
Thanks!


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## jenlwhi2 (Dec 18, 2017)

Anyone?


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## Susie (Dec 18, 2017)

1) Most of us have jobs, families, and it is the holidays, so people are busy.  A bit of patience goes a long way.
2) All liquid soap that is intended to be sold needs a preservative.  You don't know what other people are going to do with it.  If you aren't intending to sell, it is up to you.
3) I kept a bottle of diluted liquid soap close to 3 years before I could see bacteria under a microscope.  I would not suggest you try it.  You can store the paste a very long time in the refrigerator, then dilute as needed.
4) pH measurements are notoriously inaccurate when testing a salt.  Soap is a salt.  I only zap test.  All I need to know is if the paste contains any free lye.  Zap testing answers that.
5) Go read this thread:  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114


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## cmzaha (Dec 19, 2017)

Other than bar soap I personally stay away from using milks in products like LS, Cream Soap, Lotions etc. It is very hard to preserve and I agree with Susie LS needs preserving. Not knowing exactly what survives the lye I would not want any milk in such a high liquid product, and really do not think it will change the feel of such a highly diluted product. I have had LS go moldy after time and the same with cream soap. Suttocide A has become my preservative of choice for high ph products.


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## jenlwhi2 (Dec 19, 2017)

How do y'all recommend testing it for bacteria? I would probably prefer no preservatives for my personal use but I'd like to learn what I need to do to know if it's growing yuckies!!


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## jenlwhi2 (Dec 22, 2017)

I'm just trying to jump this up to see if anyone has some info on my previous question.


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## shunt2011 (Dec 22, 2017)

You would need to find a lab to test it or you could try this http://www.lotioncrafter.com/microbial-test-kit-lotioncrafter.html  Not sure if it would work on soap.  That you will need to check on.

I personally would not risk it with GM even for myself or family.  Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not in there.


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## jenlwhi2 (Dec 22, 2017)

shunt2011 said:


> You would need to find a lab to test it or you could try this http://www.lotioncrafter.com/microbial-test-kit-lotioncrafter.html  Not sure if it would work on soap.  That you will need to check on.
> 
> I personally would not risk it with GM even for myself or family.  Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not in there.


Thank u!
Can anyone explain to me exactly why there is such a need for preservatives with liquid soap vs bar? It's not that I don't believe u..I just like to know 'WHY?' Someone else mentioned that water is added and you don't know what people are going to do with it. But, if soap is made, bottled in sanitary bottles,etc and no longer messed with except for use what is the risk then? I'm not trying to be difficult..im just trying to understand and see if I'm missing something. 

Now, I'm fine with using a preservative since its necessary as u guys are proving. But then, I would want to make sure it was working properly too. So, what's the best way to do that? Send to lab or learn to do it myself? What do you all do?
Thanks!


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## DeeAnna (Dec 22, 2017)

I'm not a microbiologist. With that disclaimer, here's my take on this issue -- 

Have you ever had mold grow on jam? Even in the refrigerator and even with plenty of sugar in the jam for preservation, mold can and does grow, particularly around the edges of the jam where oxygen, light, and environmental conditions are more favorable for microbes to grow on exposed fruit particles. 

Microbial growth on the surface of a soap bar is regularly washed off, so microbial growth that does happen (and it does) is discouraged. A soap bar is also essentially solid, which is a physical barrier that discourages microbes from penetrating into the soap structure.

With a liquid soap in a container, any microbial contamination is not removed by use. The fluid nature of liquid soap also allows microbes to migrate around inside the container. Both of these aspects favor microbial growth rather than discourage it. Microbial growth often starts in the thin film of product at the edges of the container (exactly like jam), on the lid, and on or in the dip tube and pump mechanism, although it can also grow within the main body of the product as well.

The dilution of soap with water to make a pourable product reduces the preservative effect of the soap itself. The more dilute, the less the product can act as its own preservative. Diluted LS is anywhere from maybe 20% to 40% pure soap. By "pure soap," I mean the weight of fat plus the weight of NaOH or KOH, not including water or any additives. Bar soap (and liquid soap paste) is roughly 70% to 90% pure soap.

One can use good sanitation when making and packaging liquid soap. And you can be smart about the kind of packaging used -- for example using a closed pump bottle rather than an open jar. Even so, there is no way you can entirely prevent microbes from being present in the packaged product. And there's no way a person can prevent the consumer from doing something that contaminates the product later on. A broad spectrum preservative is insurance against the fungal and bacterial stragglers that sneak their way into the product and its container throughout the lifetime of the product.

Best way to know if your product is well preserved? Know your preservative system is right for the product you're making, learn how to manufacture and package in a sanitary environment, do preliminary challenge testing on your own, then send the finished product to a challenge-testing lab.

What do I do personally? I don't sell products that need preservation due to the greater responsibility for ensuring consumer safety. If I did, I would take my own advice. For my own personal use, I use a preservative in my diluted LS and lotions per the manufacturer's recommendations, work in a reasonably sanitary way, make small amounts of preserved products so I can use them up in a relatively short time, and watch them like a hawk for any changes in appearance, texture, and odor.


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## IrishLass (Dec 22, 2017)

I don't use any preservatives in mine, but I do use EDTA. EDTA is a not a preservative, by the way- it does not kill nasties on contact- but it sequesters the nutrients needed by the yuckies to survive, so that they in effect starve. 

Anyway, I started adding EDTA to my liquid soaps after reading this very interesting discussion over at the Dish (start at post #997 by silverdoctor): http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/in...age-40?hl=edta Silverdoctor's posts are really interesting and informative. He's a retired doctor whose experiences in the medical field in regards to soap and bacteria helped to shed light on the subject for me. What he brought to the discussion, and his explanation of oligodynamic action served to help me to decide on the preservative issue for my own liquid soap. My plan of action against yuckies (based on his advice) is using the EDTA in my dilutions and also making sure to follow strict sanitary protocols, such as making sure that not only are my bottles sanitized, but the nozzles and pumps as well before filling or refilling my bottles, and having a quick turnaround time (i.e. I make small 1 lb batches and dilute only enough paste to make about 16 oz. of liquid soap, which fulfills my immediate household needs for a month or two). The rest of my paste is stored in ZipLoc bags in my fridge until needed.

For what it's worth, I should mention that I do not sell, but if I did sell, I would use a preservative because there's no way I could be sure that my customers would be as fastidious with my liquid soap as I am. 


IrishLass


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## shunt2011 (Dec 22, 2017)

IL do you use goat’s milk?  Just curious. I haven’t made a lot of LS but never used milk due to the fear of ickies.  [emoji3]


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## Susie (Dec 22, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> I'm not a microbiologist. With that disclaimer, here's my take on this issue --
> 
> Have you ever had mold grow on jam? Even in the refrigerator and even with plenty of sugar in the jam for preservation, mold can and does grow, particularly around the edges of the jam where oxygen, light, and environmental conditions are more favorable for microbes to grow on exposed fruit particles.
> 
> ...



You need to go ahead and add this to your storehouse of soapy knowledge treasures, please.  That way I can just point someone that way when the question arises again.  Thanks!


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## DeeAnna (Dec 22, 2017)

So shall it be done, O Liquid Soap Mistress Susie!


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## ngian (Dec 24, 2017)

Susie said:


> You need to go ahead and add this to your storehouse of soapy knowledge treasures, please.  That way I can just point someone that way when the question arises again.  Thanks!


At this little place full of soapy treasures that DeeAnna writes, I think that the next link should be also included:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=383997&postcount=17

Correct me if I am wrong and the "soapcalc  numbers" is already there.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 25, 2017)

Ah, yes, good point, Nikos. 

No, I have not yet gotten that post edited and on my website. I will put that on my list of things to do this coming week.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 27, 2017)

jenlwhi2 said:


> I've done a few trial batches of liquid soap but they need some work before I figure it out. I want to make it with cp method to avoid scorching the milk. I add my lye to the milk (rather than later in the trace stage)I will be using distilled water for dilution.


I highly recommend Alaiyna B's tutorial on making GM soap. Here's the link:

http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2014/04/tutorial-how-to-create-liquid-goats.html

I've been making liquid soap since 2004 and most of what I learned, I gleaned from the pioneers of making LS on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo Group. I'm one of the few soapers I know that still uses the CP method occasionally to make LS, so if you need help with that, feel free to PM me and we'll take it from there.


jenlwhi2 said:


> 1) does liquid soap this way need a preservative?


No._ "Fully saponified soap requires no preservative",_ Catherine Failor. There are several members on the LS Yahoo Group that sell commercially who will tell you they never use preservative. Well known, commercial, all natural liquid soap, such as Dr. Bronner's and Vermont Soap, contains no preservative, altho Vermont soap uses antioxidant ROE, if I remember correctly. However, many LS'ers do use preservative as a matter of personal preference, in spite of the fact that there is no preservative specifically formulated for use in LS (as far as I know) due to the fact that nasties don't thrive in an alkaline environment, i.e., LS is typically pH 9-11.


jenlwhi2 said:


> 2)whats  the typical shelf life of liquid soap?


I'm not sure. Indefinite maybe? I found a flaxseed & rosin shampoo I made 4 years ago recently when cleaning out my soaping cupboard. I'm using it now... good as the day it was made -- actually, better! XD. TIP: Rosin not only boosts the lather but has preservative qualities as well.


jenlwhi2 said:


> 3)do i need a ph  tester or is zap testing the paste enough?


pH testing isn't necessary at all unless you need to diagnose a problem with your soap. More importantly, pH testing isn't going to tell you if there's unsaponified lye in the batch, that's what the soap-in-water,  phenolphthalein or the zap test is for. (Note: Personally, I don't zap test, nor do I know many soapers who do that any more, other than here on SMF.  I prefer to use the pheno and spare my precious taste buds for other goodies like licking butter pecan ice cream. :mrgreen


jenlwhi2 said:


> Any extra tips are welcome :smile:


Faith (Alaiyna B) has other tutorials for making LS. You might try a few batches using 12-16 oz. oils to get the hang of it before attempting the goat milk batch. 12.5 oz. oils/fats makes 16 oz paste that you can then divide into four 4-oz portions to test different levels of dilution, fragrance, and any other additives that you have in mind.

HTH   :bunny:   and HAPPY SOAPING!

*ETA*: Here's a link to another site, Snow Drift Farm (defunct; now archived), that covers  the basics and then goes on to discuss using goat milk in LS. It looks like the GM is not used to make the lye solution but rather added during trace at a rate of 20% (if my math is correct) of the total liquid amount. Worth a read?:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060520222037/http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/form_liquidsoap.html​


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## IrishLass (Dec 27, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:
			
		

> More importantly, pH testing isn't going to tell you if there's unsaponified lye in the batch, that's what the soap-in-water, phenolphthalein or the zap test is for. (Note: Personally, I don't zap test, nor do I know many soapers who do that any more, other than here on SMF. I prefer to use the pheno and spare my precious taste buds for other goodies like licking butter pecan ice cream


 
I 100% agree that a pH test will not tell someone if their soap has unsaponified lye in it, but I 100% disagree that that's what phenolphthalein is for- at least not in the way that most soapers use it, i.e., if the soaper is improperly dripping drops of it directly onto their soap, or even if they use it in a proper 1% soap/water solution- it's only going to show you a range of pH. It won't show you if there is unreacted lye in the soap. 

There is only one test that I know of in which phenolphthalein is useful in regards to testing soap for unreacted lye- the 'total alkalinity test', which involves the use of a certain gram weight of soap, neutralized ethanol** and a few drops of a 1% phenolphthalein solution to make up the soap solution, and a 5 ppt citric acid solution to titrate the ethanolic soap solution with. **The ethanol, which may contain a little acid, must first be neutralized to the phenolphthalein with a 5-ppt KOH solution before mixing it with the soap. 

For those that want to use the 'total alkalinity' test, an ethalonic soap solution that tests out with a total alkalinity of 0 parts per thousand is defined as being 'tongue neutral'. To me it's quicker and less hassle to just do a quick, safe, properly executed tongue test (as described *here* ).

Also- the other problem with using phenolphthalein in the way most soapmakers use it or prescribe others to use it (i.e., dripping it directly on soap or dripping it in a 1% soap/water solution) is that the results can be misleading, because it turns various shades of pink from 8.2 pH to 12 pH, turns clear in a pH of 0 - 8.2, _and also turns clear_ when the pH is over 12. One can very well mislead themselves into thinking their soap is 8.2 pH because it tests out in the 'clear' zone, but for all they know, the pH might be 13, which could be very bad for those that are highly pH sensitive folks. And since phenolphthalein used in this way only test for ranges of pH (instead of for total alkalinity), the soap could very well have unreacted lye in it to boot. A simple tongue test, on the other hand will tell them for sure in no more than a few seconds.

Here's an informative post by our DeeAnna that explains a little more about this issue: 
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=433444&postcount=9


IrishLass


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 28, 2017)

*Pheno test for unsaponified lye*



IrishLass said:


> I 100% agree that a pH test will not tell someone if their soap has unsaponified lye in it, but I 100% disagree that that's what phenolphthalein is for- at least not in the way that most soapers use it, i.e., if the soaper is improperly dripping drops of it directly onto their soap, or even if they use it in a proper 1% soap/water solution- it's only going to show you a range of pH. It won't show you if there is unreacted lye in the soap.



Very informative post, Irish. Thank you. However, I don’t use pheno to test for pH but rather to be sure all the excess lye has been absorbed, as shown in Carrie’s Liquid Soap video where she replaces water with glycerin to make the KOH solution. Run the video up to about the 5-minute-mark to see how she does it:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6brP--yQpU[/ame]

When I first tried this, not only did the batch become soap in all of *2 minutes* (woo hoo!), but it tested *bright fushia* at that point, just as she shows in the video, and tested *clear* after I waited an hour. Amazing! Not trying to be argumentative, just sayin’, I’m not a scientist, just a lowly ole soaper, and it works for me, as well as others on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo Group. 

Thanks for mentioning that bit about some persons being sensitive to high alkalinity, i.e. "pH 13". Good to know. Makes me think I need to make LS this way again just to see what the pH is after it's finished. Hmm. I do add citric acid (20% solution) at a rate of 0.06% as a matter of habit to most of my (0% SF) batches so hopefully that would take care of that issue?


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## ngian (Dec 28, 2017)

Phenolphthalein is a pH indicator and pH is only available in aqueous solutions.

In the video you posted the first measurement happens when there must be a little bit of water in the soapy mixture while in the second measurement there is mostly soap paste.

If she would add some water to that paste of the second measurement then the phenolphthalein indicator would turn pink as the KOH soap is always alkaline.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 28, 2017)

ngian said:


> In the video you posted the first measurement happens when there must be a little bit of water in the soapy mixture.


Nope. When I did the test, the soap was soap, no "free" water. It's really a rather amazing method, to my mind at least. And a very useful tool that every LS-er should have in their toolbox -- especially when it comes to making 100% Olive Oil Castile, which requires a long amount of time to get to trace and to cook until fully saponified.

ETA: If I ever make it again, ngian, and it won't be any time soon, I'll keep your comments in mind. Interesting. Thanks.


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## Susie (Dec 28, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I've been making liquid soap since 2004 and most of what I learned, I gleaned from the pioneers of making LS on the Liquid Soapers Yahoo Group. I'm one of the few soapers I know that still uses the CP method occasionally to make LS, so if you need help with that, feel free to PM me and we'll take it from there.



Actually, there are quite a few of us that make CP LS. I made a batch just yesterday, matter of fact.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 28, 2017)

"...I'm one of the few soapers I know that still uses the CP method occasionally to make LS..."

Really? That's interesting. I always use a CP method to make my liquid soap and I guarantee I didn't learn from you nor the folks on the Yahoo group. Maybe you need to check IL's and Susie's tutorials on making liquid soap with a CP method, Zany. Maybe you'd learn a few tricks from them. They're very good at what they do.


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## IrishLass (Dec 28, 2017)

Zany- I'm very familiar with Carrie's video. It (and the very loooooong glycerin LS thread over at the Dish forum) is actually what got me into making my own liquid soap back in 2012, and it is the video I point to as my inspiration in my cold processed LS tutorials I have posted here at SMF. Anyway- while I love her video, her method of using phenolphthalein is a very faulty way of using phenolphthalein that will in turn give faulty results. It is as Ngian said: Phenolphthalein is a pH indicator and pH is only available in aqueous solutions.

I'm not a scientist either, (and I'm not trying to be argumentative either- I just want to make sure I'm presenting the proper info, especially for those who are new), but I do take to heart the posts written by those soapers who are scientists or who at least have a scientific or lab background, and from what I've learned from them is that while you can definitely get 'a reading' with phenolphthalein the way Carrie uses it in her video, it won't be the reliable, trustworthy reading that one is counting on as being true, because in order for phenolphthalein to give one a true reading of the pH range, the substance being tested must be dissolved in water first. The way to do that is to make a 1% aqueous solution out of 1 gram of soap paste dissolved in 99 grams distilled water. 

And just to repeat, using the phenolphthalein in the manner that Carrie mistakenly does in her video (and as so many others do who have mistakenly followed her or someone else's unfortunate, faulty lead), will not tell you if there is unreacted lye present in the soap, most especially since it is not even able to indicate the true pH range when used in that way. You'll definitely get a 'reading' alright, but it won't be a true reading. 

The proper way to use phenolphthalein at home in detecting the presence unreacted lye is to follow the protocol/procedure precisely spelled out in the 'alkalinity test' in Dr. Dunn's book, using a precise amount of soap dissolved in a neutralized ethalonic solution made up of ethanol and a certain amount of a 1% phenolphthalein solution, and then titrating it with a certain amount of a precise % of citric acid solution. And the correct way to use phenolphthalein in order to give one a true pH range, a 1% aqueous solution made of 1 gram of soap dissolved 99 grams of distilled water must be used. 

Phenolphthalein is a wonderful tool, but only if used within the parameters for which it was designed to be used for giving capable readings. 


IrishLass


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## Susie (Dec 28, 2017)

Here's a pic of my CPLS made yesterday.  No lye heavy then neutralize.  No cure time.  Fully diluted for the foamer.  Colored green with MP colorant (works well for liquid soap!), scented with CC Cucumber Melon.  Sorry it does not have goat's milk.


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## IrishLass (Dec 29, 2017)

shunt2011 said:


> IL do you use goat’s milk? Just curious. I haven’t made a lot of LS but never used milk due to the fear of ickies. [emoji3]


 
Hi Shari- no, I've never used any kind of milk in my LS.


IrishLass


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## jenlwhi2 (Jan 9, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> You would need to find a lab to test it or you could try this http://www.lotioncrafter.com/microbial-test-kit-lotioncrafter.html  Not sure if it would work on soap.  That you will need to check on.
> 
> I personally would not risk it with GM even for myself or family.  Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not in there.


Thank you! 

Do any of you have experience with something like this at home?


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## jenlwhi2 (Jan 9, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> Best way to know if your product is well preserved? Know your preservative system is right for the product you're making, learn how to manufacture and package in a sanitary environment, do preliminary challenge testing on your own, then send the finished product to a challenge-testing lab.
> 
> What do I do personally? I don't sell products that need preservation due to the greater responsibility for ensuring consumer safety. If I did, I would take my own advice. For my own personal use, I use a preservative in my diluted LS and lotions per the manufacturer's recommendations, work in a reasonably sanitary way, make small amounts of preserved products so I can use them up in a relatively short time, and watch them like a hawk for any changes in appearance, texture, and odor.



This is all super helpful! Thanks you deeana  
What kind of preservative do you use and how do u use them? 
 If I ever get brave enough to try this i will take your advice and preserve, self test and send to a lab as well. 
If any of you have suggestions of self home test kits that would be helpful!


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## jenlwhi2 (Jan 9, 2018)

IrishLass said:


> I don't use any preservatives in mine, but I do use EDTA. EDTA is a not a preservative, by the way- it does not kill nasties on contact- but it sequesters the nutrients needed by the yuckies to survive, so that they in effect starve.
> 
> Anyway, I started adding EDTA to my liquid soaps after reading this very interesting discussion over at the Dish (start at post #997 by silverdoctor): http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/in...age-40?hl=edta Silverdoctor's posts are really interesting and informative. He's a retired doctor whose experiences in the medical field in regards to soap and bacteria helped to shed light on the subject for me. What he brought to the discussion, and his explanation of oligodynamic action served to help me to decide on the preservative issue for my own liquid soap. My plan of action against yuckies (based on his advice) is using the EDTA in my dilutions and also making sure to follow strict sanitary protocols, such as making sure that not only are my bottles sanitized, but the nozzles and pumps as well before filling or refilling my bottles, and having a quick turnaround time (i.e. I make small 1 lb batches and dilute only enough paste to make about 16 oz. of liquid soap, which fulfills my immediate household needs for a month or two). The rest of my paste is stored in ZipLoc bags in my fridge until needed.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I plan to read up on the link you added! I 'll at least hopeful that there are some options out there! You mentioned you don't use milk in any if your. In your experience would that seem the EDTA  ineffective in the way you mentioned?  if i ever get brave enough to do this I will be using a preservative as well, as you noted doing!


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## jenlwhi2 (Jan 9, 2018)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I highly recommend Alaiyna B's tutorial on making GM soap. Here's the link:
> 
> http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2014/04/tutorial-how-to-create-liquid-goats.html
> 
> ...


Thank you for all of this!  That was actually the same tutorial I followed to make the first batch I did of LS. I followed it all except for sunflower oil. It turned out pretty well! I HP it (later discovered the CP method of LS and prefer it when using milks!). So it was an amber color. I did a terrible job during the solution process so most of what I made I had to pitch. But i did end up with 1 couple of nice bottles  they out weren't quite as emolient/ soft on the hands as I am going for. So, that's why I'm still working towards another  recipe that I like. 
I will read up on the link you sent though! Thanks!


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## jenlwhi2 (Jan 9, 2018)

Susie said:


> Here's a pic of my CPLS made yesterday.  No lye heavy then neutralize.  No cure time.  Fully diluted for the foamer.  Colored green with MP colorant (works well for liquid soap!), scented with CC Cucumber Melon.  Sorry it does not have goat's milk.


Oooh that's so pretty!!!


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## jenlwhi2 (Jan 15, 2018)

IrishLass said:


> I don't use any preservatives in mine, but I do use EDTA. EDTA is a not a preservative, by the way- it does not kill nasties on contact- but it sequesters the nutrients needed by the yuckies to survive, so that they in effect starve.
> 
> Anyway, I started adding EDTA to my liquid soaps after reading this very interesting discussion over at the Dish (start at post #997 by silverdoctor): http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/in...age-40?hl=edta Silverdoctor's posts are really interesting and informative. He's a retired doctor whose experiences in the medical field in regards to soap and bacteria helped to shed light on the subject for me. What he brought to the discussion, and his explanation of oligodynamic action served to help me to decide on the preservative issue for my own liquid soap. My plan of action against yuckies (based on his advice) is using the EDTA in my dilutions and also making sure to follow strict sanitary protocols, such as making sure that not only are my bottles sanitized, but the nozzles and pumps as well before filling or refilling my bottles, and having a quick turnaround time (i.e. I make small 1 lb batches and dilute only enough paste to make about 16 oz. of liquid soap, which fulfills my immediate household needs for a month or two). The rest of my paste is stored in ZipLoc bags in my fridge until needed.
> 
> ...


IrishLass, where do u purchase your EDTA?


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## DeeAnna (Jan 15, 2018)

Not IL, but lotioncrafter and saveOnCitric both sell EDTA. Be sure to get TETRAsodium EDTA, not DIsodium.


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## earlene (Jan 15, 2018)

If you have an Amazon account with free shipping, that's another place to get it.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IV211RK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## IrishLass (Jan 15, 2018)

jenlwhi2 said:


> IrishLass, where do u purchase your EDTA?


 
I buy mine from LotionCrafter.


IrishLass


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