# Vanillin?



## Kittish (Aug 16, 2017)

I found a source for pure vanillin powder, biologically derived (as opposed to fully synthesized), at what strikes me as being a reasonable price, $30.00 for 240g (lower price points for smaller amounts, too). I'm wondering how it would do in CP soap, since whole vanilla is prohibitively expensive to use in soap and FOs containing artificial ingredients are not an option for me due to allergies. It can be dissolved in glycerin.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Aug 17, 2017)

I've never used vanillin powder but I'm wondering if it would scent CP all that well? Like when you add cocoa powder to color soap it doesn't really add any scent. Adding it to glycerin might help that tho. Not sure. I'm curious to hear how it works for you. 

On the other hand, you might want to try Balsam Peru EO. It's said to have a "vanilla-like" fragrance, altho, as much as I like it, I don't think anyone would mistake it for vanilla! It's very nice in blends. It's a warming, mellowing anchor and plays nicely with a variety of EOs.


----------



## Kittish (Aug 17, 2017)

Yep, Balsam of Peru oil is on my list for next month's big fragrance order. I'll be getting materials for soaps as well as making perfumes and colognes. Hopefully I'll have two or three distinct blends worked out by Christmas. Planning to send out goody boxes to friends and family, depending on what soaps I have by then that I feel comfortable sending out. I've got three so far, unless they go DOSsy or generally rancid on me. 

I'll get some of the vanillin powder, too, and try it out. The vendor has it labeled as suitable for food and perfumery use so it'll at least be safe to use in soap.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Aug 17, 2017)

If not for personal use, I would definitely use an FO to be sure to get that vanilla scent you want. I've heard that Bramble Berry has the best Vanilla FO -- Vanilla Select. I have some but I've not soaped it. I tend to use it to mellow or round out blends. Sigh, ...the things we are forced to do when ingredients become too pricey to use.   :cry:


----------



## Kittish (Aug 17, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> If not for personal use, I would definitely use an FO to be sure to get that vanilla scent you want. I've heard that Bramble Berry has the best Vanilla FO -- Vanilla Select. I have some but I've not soaped it. I tend to use it to mellow or round out blends. Sigh, ...the things we are forced to do when ingredients become too pricey to use.   :cry:



I cannot use FOs _at all_. I am allergic to artificial fragrances, and while I'm aware that there are FOs out there that are all natural, most of them are decidedly not. Exposure to artificial scents for as little as one or two minutes is enough sometimes to trigger a reaction, then I'm down for one to three days trying to breathe and survive a massive migraine. Thankfully, so far nature identical synthetics haven't caused me any problems, so those I don't mind at all.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Aug 17, 2017)

Kittish said:


> I cannot use FOs _at all_. I am allergic to artificial fragrances, and while I'm aware that there are FOs out there that are all natural, most of them are decidedly not. Exposure to artificial scents for as little as one or two minutes is enough sometimes to trigger a reaction, then I'm down for one to three days trying to breathe and survive a massive migraine. Thankfully, so far nature identical synthetics haven't caused me any problems, so those I don't mind at all.


Oh WOW! I'm sorry to hear that. I thought I had a problem -- most FOs make me sneeze or stick me right between the eyes like a hat pin, causing a headache. But, over the years, I've found a few that I like and can use. Phthalate free seems to have resolved most of the problem for me. 

In any case, I'll be watching this thread to see what you do with the vanillin powder.


----------



## Kittish (Sep 9, 2017)

Got vanillin crystals in, and got some mixed into some glycerin. 

I'm wondering if I shouldn't see if the crystals will dissolve in water, and if they will just use a little water from my batch to dissolve them rather than using the glycerin mix. I'll need 1-2 tablespoons of the mix PPO at the ratio the vanillin and glycerin are mixed at now, I think, depending on how strong I want the scent. After seeing BrewerGeorge's results from using glycerin to disperse his colorants, I'm suddenly a little leery of using it at all. I definitely know not to insulate soap made with it!

I can't find any restrictions, warnings or maximum safe usage rates on vanillin (and if you have info regarding any of these, please let me know!). The only usage rate info I've got to go on is from the vendor's web site. There it says vanillin can be used up to 8% of the total weight of perfume. I'm assuming that's the undiluted oil blend, not total weight of perfume that is diluted for use.

A 500g test soap scented with vanillin is on the list. Be interesting to watch it change color as it cures.


----------



## Susie (Sep 9, 2017)

Kittish said:


> I cannot use FOs _at all_. I am allergic to artificial fragrances, and while I'm aware that there are FOs out there that are all natural, most of them are decidedly not. Exposure to artificial scents for as little as one or two minutes is enough sometimes to trigger a reaction, then I'm down for one to three days trying to breathe and survive a massive migraine. Thankfully, so far nature identical synthetics haven't caused me any problems, so those I don't mind at all.



I used to think it was all synthetic fragrances that gave me migraines, also. I learned that it was the phthalates, though, and I have been able to use phthalate free FOs with no problems.  I still have to avoid the candle aisle at Walmart, though.


----------



## Kittish (Sep 9, 2017)

Susie said:


> I used to think it was all synthetic fragrances that gave me migraines, also. I learned that it was the phthalates, though, and I have been able to use phthalate free FOs with no problems.  I still have to avoid the candle aisle at Walmart, though.



Synthetic substances, so far, I'm not having reactions from. Artificial ones, I do. Every single thing that I come into contact with that has artificial fragrance, I can feel the reaction starting inside a minute (sometimes much faster), and my sinuses and airways closing up. It may well be an allergy to phthalates, even if it is it'll still be much easier for me to avoid them by using essential oils and absolutes for fragrance. 

Plus, I'm having lots of fun acquiring a selection of EOs and working out ways to combine them. :mrgreen:


----------



## IrishLass (Sep 10, 2017)

Kittish said:


> I can't find any restrictions, warnings or maximum safe usage rates on vanillin (and if you have info regarding any of these, please let me know!). The only usage rate info I've got to go on is from the vendor's web site. There it says vanillin can be used up to 8% of the total weight of perfume. I'm assuming that's the undiluted oil blend, not total weight of perfume that is diluted for use.


 
I looked up the CAS # on different chemical reference sites online, a few perfumery sites, and also in my Essential Oil Safety book by Tisserand/Young. So far, I'm not seeing any max usage restrictions other than food-related restrictions. The 8% suggested usage rate for perfume concentrations is not really what I would consider to be a restriction for safety reasons, but more of a 'quality of scent' concern, based on what I have read so far. 

In my Essential Oil Safety book, it was reported that IFRA once had a .5% restriction on it in leave-on products, but they took it off their restricted list pending review of preliminary data presented by "an ECETOC task force that show it to be a weak allergen, only likely to elicit a sensitization reaction if present at 3% or more." (in those who are sensitive to it)

Here is the official announcement of IFRA withdrawing their restrictions on vanillin:

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ifra-issues-fragrance-standards-update-124583248.html


On this perfumery site (which sells scent components), it makes mention of it being rarely used higher than 8% because it can become 'sickly sweet':

https://pellwall.com/product/vanillin/


Another soaping company that sells vanillin crystals is Dianna's Sundries/Mighty Fine Soap & Candle Works: 
https://diannassundries.com/product/vanillin-crystals/

If you look under "Additional Information" on her site, it gives these usage rates: 

"Bar Soaps – 2-3 tsp. per pound of oils Lotions – 1-2%."




Kittish said:


> I'm wondering if I shouldn't see if the crystals will dissolve in water, and if they will just use a little water from my batch to dissolve them rather than using the glycerin mix. I'll need 1-2 tablespoons of the mix PPO at the ratio the vanillin and glycerin are mixed at now, I think, depending on how strong I want the scent. After seeing BrewerGeorge's results from using glycerin to disperse his colorants, I'm suddenly a little leery of using it at all. I definitely know not to insulate soap made with it!


 
In the link you supplied, BrewerGeorge said he mixed his colorants into his oil (not glycerin). Did you mean to supply a link to a different thread? For what it's worth, I mix all my colorants in glycerin, soap on the warm side and insulate/force gel, and the glycerin does not cause any issues in my soap. I do soap with a 33% lye concentration, though. Maybe he soaps with a different lye concentration? 


HTH! 
IrishLass


----------



## Kittish (Sep 10, 2017)

For the thread I linked, he mixed some of his colorants with glycerin:



BrewerGeorge said:


> I put black mica and TiO2 into a couple tablespoons of glycerin and mixed 20% of the batter into each.  Looks like the black and white both overheated.  In retrospect, I guess that makes sense that glycerin acted like sugar.  The white has basically turned into one giant glycerin river.
> 
> What do you think?



He also had things getting pretty warm by then because of his almost oops, so that might also have contributed. 

I'm glad to see that my initial conclusions that the vanillin will be safe to use in soap are correct. I did several searches with the CAS # and didn't turn up anything, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to turn up. Thank you, IrishLass (and I'm totally bookmarking those links).


----------

