# Dishwasher Soap Experiment



## Susie (Dec 31, 2014)

I decided to try using my homemade 100% CO liquid soap paste in my dishwasher.  Most of the online recipes for homemade dishwasher soap use borax, washing soda, and sometimes citric acid.  I wanted actual soap to be used(so the dishes would actually be clean).  

To test this, I cooked cheese grits in 2 pots, and baked chicken casseroles with cheese and salsa in 2 casserole dishes.  My family added a pan that had been used to fry hamburgers in, and a pot and bowl that oatmeal had been cooked in.  I divided the dishes into 2 mostly equal batches.  One batch I used no soap whatsoever on.  One batch I used my homemade soap mixture(see below) on, after letting it sit out an additional hour and a half.

I mixed 4 oz each of !00% CO paste, borax, and washing soda.  I thought I might need to add salt, but the bubbles were not that bad.  I then divided the paste/borax/washing soda into 1/2 oz globs.  

The first batch of dishes(no soap) was not clean.  Lots of starchy/cheesy/tomatoey crud left.  I left those in the dishwasher and added my soap mixture, 1/2 oz in the pre-wash chamber, 1/2 oz in the part with the door.  

The only problem I had was that the glob of soap stuck to the door of part that holds the soap for the last part of the wash.  Other than that, all of the dishes came out perfectly clean.   And I did not have suds all over the kitchen.

What I think needs improvement:

Looser paste- this was very difficult to mix the borax and washing soda into.  Not to mention the whole sticking to the door issue.  

I am going to try making more liquid soap paste with more water on the front end(batch water).  Hopefully this will yield a little looser paste.  If that does not work, I am going to use SL after cooking to loosen it up. **EDIT* Do not add more batch water.  I am having trouble getting this to paste stage!*

OK, apparently all I needed to do was walk away in frustration and type, LOL.  I now have paste.  I used an extra 3 oz water to this batch.  It was apparently not enough to affect the thickness as I have thick paste.  But I would not add more as I thought I was going to have to add more KOH and CO.  I am going to try some sodium lactate as soon as this gels.(Cold process, so no cooking.)


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## DeeAnna (Dec 31, 2014)

Sounds like the liquid soap gremlins are having fun with you today, Susie!


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## lsg (Dec 31, 2014)

I think that you might find, over time, that unless you have very soft water and your dishwasher uses extra hot, hot water that soap will not work well and may lead to build up on dishes, inside the dishwasher and in the pipes.   There is a reason that Borax, citric acid. baking soda and Sodium Percarbonate are used along with other ingredients.  For the most part, these products do not lead to over-sudsing or buildup.  I have come up with a formula for a granular dishwasher product that I make when I run out of Cascade Complete.  It is not cost effective, however.  I only make it when I am out of the other.  On the other hand you could come up with a formula that works great for you.  Good luck with your experiments.


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## KristaY (Dec 31, 2014)

Great experiment Susie! I can't wait for the next chapter in the story.....

 PS - How did the dishes look spot wise? I always have to use Lemi Shine to eliminate dingy, spotty glasses. If I could eliminate that extra expense, I'd be a very happy dishwasher!


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## Susie (Dec 31, 2014)

*Update*

I ended up using 2.5 parts soap paste to 1 part borax and 1 part washing soda.  The SL at 2% worked a charm to soften that soap up enough I could squidge it together with my fingers.  I crammed the resulting aggregate into a log mold, intending to cut it later.  

I am fortunate enough to have very soft water.  The water heater is set at 140F.  The temperature of the water in the wash cycle was 160F.(I look for any excuse to use my laser thermometer, LOL.)All of the videos I have ever watched on making your own dishwasher stuff say to add citric acid if you have hard water.  I don't, so I thought I might be able to get away without using it.  I may have to add it later if I see crud building up, and I do have some I can use.  I only made a 12 oz batch of this mixture, so I can re-evaluate as I go.  I have plenty paste left to do trial and error on.

My glasses were crystal clear.  I never use the heat dry cycle or any products to remove spots.  No problem whatsoever.

I will let y'all know any findings as I go.


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## lenarenee (Dec 31, 2014)

lsg said:


> I think that you might find, over time, that unless you have very soft water and your dishwasher uses extra hot, hot water that soap will not work well and may lead to build up on dishes, inside the dishwasher and in the pipes. There is a reason that Borax, citric acid. baking soda and Sodium Percarbonate are used along with other ingredients. For the most part, these products do not lead to over-sudsing or buildup. I have come up with a formula for a granular dishwasher product that I make when I run out of Cascade Complete. It is not cost effective, however. I only make it when I am out of the other. On the other hand you could come up with a formula that works great for you. Good luck with your experiments.



lsg, it sounds like you know quite a bit about how soap affects plumbing. What do you think about homemade soap(50/50 co, lard), borax and washing soda used in clothes washing machine...long term? It sounds like you're saying soft water will usually not lead to build up from soap? My laundry soap has a sf of .5%.


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## lsg (Dec 31, 2014)

I know that homemade laundry soap does not work well in our hard water.  The clothes do not get as clean and the homemade soap does not rinse out as well as commercial products.  I have tried several versions, some using my homemade 100% coconut cp soap, some using a bar with lard and even some using Fels Naptha along with Borax and washing soda.  I know something about clogs and drain pipes.  DH has had to snake out the drain from our kitchen several times over the years.  This was not from grease, but from a solid buildup in the pipe.  The drain clogged up especially bad when I tried to use the so-called eco friendly brands of automatic dish detergent.  A repair man told me that since phosphates have been greatly reduced in automatic dish detergents, they don't clean as well and don't rinse off as well.  He told me that Cascade Complete was the best brand to use.  I have used it ever since with good results.  As I said in a previous post, I do have a formula that I make when out of Cascade Complete.  It works, but it costs more than buying Cascade.  I am not a chemist, but I do know that the minerals in hard water cause a build up in plumbing, fixtures and hot water heaters.


Here are some sources for more info. on the topic:

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/water-softener-hurt-plumbing-system-96097.html

http://www.cleaninginstitute.org/cl...anges_in_automatic_dishwasher_detergents.aspx

"Question:
What is the advantages of using a synthetic detergent in place of soap in harder water? 


Replies:
The main advantage is that it will actually work. 

In hard water, soaps exchange their cations for the hard water cations, and the resulting complex is insoluble, precipitating from the water. That means that it will not work to lower the water's surface tension or incorporate dirt into micelles, because the soap no longer has a hydrophilic head. 

Most synthetic detergents do not have this drawback: their calcium and magnesium complexes are still hydrophilic. "

*Source:http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem07/chem07280.htm*


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## lenarenee (Dec 31, 2014)

Thank you for your input; I appreciate it.  I haven't been extremely happy using homemade laundry soap, but have quite a bit to use up since it shouldn't be an issue with soft water.


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## lsg (Jan 1, 2015)

Adding white vinegar to the rinse cycle might help an little.


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## lizflowers42 (Jan 1, 2015)

I always use vinegar in the rinse aide compartment, works great!


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## Susie (Jan 2, 2015)

*Update-not good news*

First trial with mix of soap paste, borax, washing soda 2.5:1:1.  White residue left on all dishes.  

Going to try adding borax and washing soda to the dishwasher to bring it to a 1:1:1 ratio.  If that does not work, I give up.


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## biarine (Jan 16, 2015)

I made a dish washing bar today full 100 percent coconut and superfat of 1 percent and water discount of 38. I love this soap very cleansing and bubbly. I am currently using bar of soap to wash my dishes because I don't have a dishwasher. I used my laundry bar before but unfortunately it's not very bubbly. I really wanted to make a liquid dish washing but I am still a newbie, I'm afraid to try the potassium hydroxide yet. This is not a good looking


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## PrairieLights (Jan 16, 2015)

Susie said:


> First trial with mix of soap paste, borax, washing soda 2.5:1:1.  White residue left on all dishes.
> 
> Going to try adding borax and washing soda to the dishwasher to bring it to a 1:1:1 ratio.  If that does not work, I give up.



How did it go? My neighbor was asking me about DW soap this evening. While I make my own laundry soap (which I LOVE), I have not branched out to DW soap or dish washing soap. Was thinking 100% CO soap... Sounds like maybe for hand washing dishes but not DW??? :shock:


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## Dorymae (Jan 16, 2015)

Susie said:


> First trial with mix of soap paste, borax, washing soda 2.5:1:1.  White residue left on all dishes.
> 
> Going to try adding borax and washing soda to the dishwasher to bring it to a 1:1:1 ratio.  If that does not work, I give up.



Add citric acid.  Really, I add it to commercial DW detergent that leaves a film and it eliminates it.


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## biarine (Jan 17, 2015)

Hand washing dishes not on dishwasher which I don't have


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## Saponista (Jan 19, 2015)

I have found very little information about dishwasher soap, no one seems to have had much success and I have trawled the web for hours looking. I will be really interested if you succeed in finding a recipe that works. Did you use rinse aid in the dishwasher? 

You should give potassium hydroxide a try biarine, there are lots of threads on liquid soap on here to help.


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## Susie (Jan 19, 2015)

Oh, I thought I did an update, sorry about that!  Utter fail on second try.  I added citric acid, and still have a white residue.  I have reverted to using commercial stuff because there is just something in my mind that says you need real soap to clean dishes, so the borax/washing soda/citric acid just does not seem like the answer for me.  I will keep researching, though.  I have not given up.


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## Cindy2428 (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks for the update Susie. I have been following this thread and wondering how things went.


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## Susie (Jan 19, 2015)

While still researching, I ran across this:

http://practical-stewardship.com/20...detergent-rinse-aid-cleaning-your-dishwasher/

I am going to try it with my liquid 100% CO dishwashing soap tomorrow.(I found it right after starting the dishwasher.)  Maybe I can get it to work and go from there.


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## ronrho56 (Jan 19, 2015)

I had found a recipe on the internet that seems to work well for me. I have been using this for several months, and it does clean the dishes without leaving a residue.

The recipe is:
3 cups of distilled water
1 and 1/4 cup of washing soda
3 tablespoons of castile soap
essential oil

I heat the water in a glass measuring cup in the microwave to almost boiling; add the washing soda and the soap (I use whatever homemade unscented liquid soap that I have on hand); stir until everything is dissolved. You have to keep coming back to stir ever 30 minutes or so, until it cools down. I then place in a bottle with a dispensing cap; you will have to shake this every time you use it. 
-What I have found is that when you add the essential oil to the mixture, it tends to form crystals in the bottle. I have been leaving the essential oil out and if I do want to add the oil, I add several drops into the dispenser along with the mixture.
- As I said, I found this on the internet and it is not my recipe but it works for me.  If anyone tries this, I hope it works for you!!


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## Susie (Jan 19, 2015)

You use that in the dishwasher, or in the sink?


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## ronrho56 (Jan 19, 2015)

I use this in the dishwasher. For dishes that I hand wash, I use my own homemade dish soap.


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## PrairieLights (Jan 22, 2015)

Susie said:


> While still researching, I ran across this:
> 
> http://practical-stewardship.com/20...detergent-rinse-aid-cleaning-your-dishwasher/
> 
> I am going to try it with my liquid 100% CO dishwashing soap tomorrow.(I found it right after starting the dishwasher.)  Maybe I can get it to work and go from there.



And? How did it go? I made my first 100% CO liquid soap yesterday and the paste turned to a rock... Trying to dilute it now.... Hope it works - and hope to hear good news from your most recent experiment, Susie. :razz:


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## Susie (Jan 22, 2015)

It really did not work well.  I am going to have to buy more vinegar for the rinse aid thingie.  Lots of residue.


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## BubblesandBlends (Jan 22, 2015)

Hmm I will have to try adding CO to a new batch of dishwasher soap tomorrow. I have found with the borax, washing soda, and citric acid its am matter of tinkering with it. I use 1 cup borax, 1 cup washing soda, 3/4 cup citric acid. rinse agent of vinegar and I throw a lemon in the bottom of the dishwasher. That lemon makes a huge difference. I do have very hard water so it took me some tinkerin to work it out.


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## Saponista (Jan 23, 2015)

Could you fill the rinse aid up with a citric acid solution rather than vinegar? Then you could make it more acidic than vinegar and it may rinse better?


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## LBussy (Jan 23, 2015)

Good automatic DW detergent (commercial) is highly caustic ... I would suggest a tiny lye surplus might be needed.

If you ever burn something in a pot, get a decent detergent (I know Cascade works) and boil water with detergent for a while.  Turn it off and leave it overnight.  Most times your troubles are gone.


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## Susie (Jan 23, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Good automatic DW detergent (commercial) is highly caustic ... I would suggest a tiny lye surplus might be needed.
> 
> If you ever burn something in a pot, get a decent detergent (I know Cascade works) and boil water with detergent for a while.  Turn it off and leave it overnight.  Most times your troubles are gone.



I do this with my 100% CO paste.  You just need an hour or so.  

I checked my commercial dishwasher detergent(Member's Mark from Sam's) for pH- it was 9.7.  My 100% CO liquid laundry soap is 9.0.  Does anyone use Cascade that has an accurate pH meter?


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## LBussy (Jan 23, 2015)

I can try to remember ... at work now.

Another thing to consider is pH is not the same as titratable alkalinity.  There's got to be enough "capacity" in the caustic to continue doing the work.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 28, 2015)

Cascade powder:
pH: 10.7 - 11.3

Cascade gel
pH: (1% solution): 10.5 – 11.5
pH: (neat): 12.5

Source: http://www.pgproductsafety.com/prod...ade&category=msds&submit=Search&submit=Search


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## lsg (Jan 29, 2015)

My recipe for automatic dishwasher soap calls for about 6% sodium silicate, which raises the pH.


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## LBussy (Jan 29, 2015)

lsg said:


> My recipe for automatic dishwasher soap calls for about 6% sodium silicate, which raises the pH.


Interesting ...

It also flocculates particulates and is what they use most often as an adhesive to make cardboard.  I use it to harden paper tubes for pyro work.  It's called "water glass" in some applications because of hit's hardening properties.


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## Dorymae (Jan 29, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Interesting ...
> 
> It also flocculates particulates and is what they use most often as an adhesive to make cardboard.  I use it to harden paper tubes for pyro work.  It's called "water glass" in some applications because of hit's hardening properties.



Water glass- the same stuff you preserve eggs with?


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## LBussy (Jan 29, 2015)

Yep.  Looks like it has a bunch of uses.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 29, 2015)

This excerpt goes to show there's nothing new under the sun:

"...The raw materials employed in the manufacture of soap, therefore consist, on the one hand, of fats, fat oils, fatty acids and rosin and, on the other, of alkalies. To these have to be added as auxiliary raw materials: Water, lime, and common salt. 

"Besides the above-mentioned materials which are indispensable for the manufacture of soap, foreign substances are frequently incorporated with the soap, chiefly with the object of cheapening the cost of manufacture. These substances are known as filling materials, soda ash, _silicate of soda (water glass or soluble glass)_, glue, starch, etc., being used....

"Soap moderately filled with silicate of soda has the advantage over one not thus treated of better retaining a smooth, pleasing exterior and possessing a better feel. If, however, too much silicate of soda has been used the soap, when stored for some time, becomes hard as stone and presents a bad appearance...."

The soap maker's handbook, Carl Diete, 1912.


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## lsg (Jan 29, 2015)

Instead of sodium silicate you can use Sodium Metasilicate Pentahydrate, which is cheaper and raises the pH.  I am going to use sodium metasilicate in the next recipe to see how it compares with the recipe using sodium silicate.


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## jnl (Jan 30, 2015)

What about using grated 100% CO bar soap?  I dont want to have to deal with paste.

I think i will try making a recipe tomorrow.

This page tested a number of recipes:
http://www.houselogic.com/home-advice/green-living/which-homemade-dishwasher-soap-recipe-best/


so maybe i will try something like this (just adding some soap to an existing recipe):
1/2 cup grated CO soap (1% superfat - just because thats what i have)
1 cup borax
1 cup washing soda
½ cup citric acid
½ cup sea salt

i will grind it up so its all a super fine powder.  i dont see why everyone adds coarse salt....why would that make a difference?  i do have coarse salt, but im going to grind it up.

any suggested tweaks to my recipe before i try it?  should i add 1 cup grated soap instead of half a cup?


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