# To Gel Or Not To Gel? That is the question...



## hungryhawaiian (Feb 15, 2019)

I’m having a hard time understanding gelling. I know how to identify it when it happens, and it has something to do with water amounts, but what I don’t understand is what exactly is happening to it, is it a bad thing, why or why not?!? 

I read Auntie Clara’s blog about it and apparently you can prevent it or you can force it. So I guess my real question is why would you want or not want gelling to occur (ghost swirls aside)?


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## shunt2011 (Feb 15, 2019)

I gel all my soaps.  For one, it allows me to un-mold sooner as it’s harder after it gets. Also, it makes my colors brighter.  Some choose not to gel but it takes longer to get out of the mold.  To try to avoid gel you need to soap with less liquid.  Most shoot fro a 33% lye concentration and put it in the fridge or freezer. To gel I insulate my molds with a wood lid and wrap in towels.  Some put into a warmed oven and shut it off when they put the mold in.   Trying not to gel sometimes ends up with partial gel depending on the type of mold. If using individual molds it’s easier to prevent.


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## hungryhawaiian (Feb 15, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> I gel all my soaps.  For one, it allows me to un-mold sooner as it’s harder after it gets. Also, it makes my colors brighter.  Some choose not to gel but it takes longer to get out of the mold.  To try to avoid gel you need to soap with less liquid.  Most shoot fro a 33% lye concentration and put it in the fridge or freezer. To gel I insulate my molds with a wood lid and wrap in towels.  Some put into a warmed oven and shut it off when they put the mold in.   Trying not to gel sometimes ends up with partial gel depending on the type of mold. If using individual molds it’s easier to prevent.



So you can still gel at 33% as long as you insulate your soap? Or is that 33% for fridge and freezer, and if so, what % do you use to induce gel with insulation?


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## shunt2011 (Feb 15, 2019)

@hungryhawaiian - yes, I gel at 33%.   I use a wood lid on my loaf molds and then cover with a few towels. If the rooms a bit cooler like it is now in winter, I sometimes put a heating pad underneath it.


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## SaltedFig (Feb 15, 2019)

Gelling can give a more translucent look to the soap (see soaps by @dibbles - some of her soaps are almost ethereal in the way they look!), and are easier to get a shine on the finished soap, with a smoother, sometimes waxier, look to the final soap.

Ungelled soaps are more opaque and pastel hued, with a creamy look to them.

If you want to watch gel in action, pour a small quantity of batter into a ziploc plastic bag and steam it gently ... you can see the change in the batter from creamy looking, to a darker, clear liquid ... it's that dark liquid phase that is the gelling soap. In a slab or log mold, you can sometimes see that dark gel, all the way to the surface of the soap. If the soap gets hot (you can feel it's hot just by holding your hand over the top or to the side), but you aren't seeing the dark all the way to the edge, just a little more insulation is needed next time, to avoid partical gel. Partial gel is a ring in the middle, of gelled soap, where the gel phase hasn't reached all the way to the edges of the soap).

I don't refrigerate my soap, so if I want an ungelled soap in my slab mold, I don't modify the recipe, I modify how I control the temperature in the final soap - if I want it kept cooler, I put it on a cooling rack and get some airflow around it. If the weather is hot, then I sometimes put the soap on ice (literally!) and run a fan over it.

Gelling is easier - if you use a lot of water, the soap will go into gel at a lower temperature. If you use less water, then insulating can retain enough heat to push the soap into gel. If that's not enough, then starting with warmer ingredients and insulating can help.

Gelling after the soap is in the mold can be done in the oven (that is CPOP), by heating the oven to just warm, then turning it off before the soap goes in. The residual heat acts like an electric blanket for soap - it keeps it warm enough to kick the soap over into gelling (and because the heat is both internally generated from the soap's exothermic reaction, and externally applied from the warmth of the oven, the gel can be quite even and complete. Overdoing the oven temperature can lead to rubbery soap 

It is easier to stop soap from gelling if it is in smaller molds, and easier to help it gel as the mold gets larger (thermal mass plays a part).

Trivia: The amount of time the soap spends cooling (after gelling) can impact on crackle (or "glycerin rivers") in the soap - a slow cool allows more crackle to develop, and a fast cool "sets" the soap and minimizes crackle (so a CPOP soap left in the oven overnight is far more likely to have crackle than a gelled soap that has had it's insulation removed and been placed, still in the mold, on a cooling rack in front of a fan


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 15, 2019)

I also tend to have less of an issue with soda ash on gelled soaps, for the reasons above that it is saponified before cutting. It's ideal to see it on a partial gel, where the ungelled part develops ash, while the gelled part doesn't


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## Marilyn Norgart (Feb 15, 2019)

when I first started I had a yellow soap that didn't gel and I fell in love with it--I have not been able to duplicate it since   and I have tried. maybe if I used single bar molds I could but I wanted a loaf of ungelled.  I wound up with so much soap that had partial gel that I just gave up and started gelling--I will still try again but I am having fun with gelling for now


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## Misschief (Feb 15, 2019)

@SaltedFig, that is one of the most concise and informative posts I've read about gel. Thank you! I may just copy and paste your response into my notes so I can find it again.


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## Clarice (Feb 15, 2019)

@Misschief  - I have started to do the same thing!  

And @SaltedFig you are a treasure!  

@hungryhawaiian I recently learned that whether or not your mixture gels - it is still soap!  (maybe you knew that already!)  Soap is FASCINATING - i feel sort of like I am playing with a giant equalizer, and there are a million dials  at my fingertips - and there are a million combinations of dial settings that will yield soap

Blows my MIND!


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## Dean (Feb 15, 2019)

I find gel (and HP) makes softer soap.  Im using a gelled batch now.  It bends twice as fast as my ungelled soap. 

When I use to get partial gel, the gel part was noticeably softer and would wear faster resulting in crescent shape bars.  I always freeze one hr to prevent partial gel.


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## Marilyn Norgart (Feb 15, 2019)

Dean said:


> I find gel (and HP) makes softer soap.  Im using a gelled batch now.  It bends twice as fast as my ungelled soap.
> 
> When I use to get partial gel, the gel part was noticeably softer and would wear faster resulting in crescent shape bars.  I always freeze one hr to prevent partial gel.



interesting.....I always thought it was the other way around


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## Clarice (Feb 15, 2019)

Dean said:


> Im using a gelled batch now. It bends twice as fast as my ungelled soap.



What do you mean by bending?  
Thank you


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## Dean (Feb 15, 2019)

Clarice said:


> What do you mean by bending?
> Thank you



The bar bends with wear.  My ungelled bars can wear very thin before bending.  My gelled and HP bars will bend when still relatively thick...at least twice as thick as ungelled.  My reported results are wo using non-oil hardeners such as salts.


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## Clarice (Feb 15, 2019)

And for you bending is a bad thing - or maybe I should say you prefer a bar that does not bed?  Do you see it as a measure of longevity?  Thank you so much!


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## cmzaha (Feb 15, 2019)

In the beginning I did not gel and found I would get some serious ash, gelling helped cut the ash. Recently I had a bar partially get and the ash was very thick on the ungelled portion, not where the soap gelled.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 15, 2019)

@Dean It's got to be your recipe.  Mine I can get down to a very thin sliver and they don't bend.   I gel all my soaps. The only soap I've ever had break is a salt bar.

I also find that gelling helps with ash or not getting ash that is.


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## dixiedragon (Feb 15, 2019)

Gelling is all personal preference. 

In some situations, you may want to to discourage gel. For example, if you are making a dairy milk soap, or a honey soap, or a milk and honey soap, that's a lot of extra sugar and it can be temperamental . Soaps with those extra sugars are more prone to overheating, which can lead to a soap volcano, alien brains, or separation. Here are some good pictures.

https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/tips-and-tricks/soap-behaving-badly/

 I personally prefer to hot process my honey soap, because I like to use beeswax so soaping cool isn't an option. So I HP my soap and when it's done, I add my honey, stick blend and put it in the mold.


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## Dean (Feb 15, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> @Dean It's got to be your recipe.  Mine I can get down to a very thin sliver and they don't bend.   I gel all my soaps. The only soap I've ever had break is a salt bar.
> 
> I also find that gelling helps with ash or not getting ash that is.


 
Are u using additives such as salt or SL?


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## shunt2011 (Feb 15, 2019)

Dean said:


> Are u using additives such as salt or SL?


Sometimes but not always.  Still don't notice a difference in use between them.  The only thing I notice is it's easier to unmold if I do use SL.  I don't use salt at all.


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## IrishLass (Feb 15, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> Trivia: The amount of time the soap spends cooling (after gelling) can impact on crackle (or "glycerin rivers") in the soap - a slow cool allows more crackle to develop, and a fast cool "sets" the soap and minimizes crackle (so a CPOP soap left in the oven overnight is far more likely to have crackle than a gelled soap that has had it's insulation removed and been placed, still in the mold, on a cooling rack in front of a fan



SaltedFig, your post was most excellent!  I just wanted to beam in on your last paragraph, because I never seem to experience that which you wrote about the crackle.  It's an extremely rare thing that my soap ever comes down with crackle/glycerin rivers. I soap at 33% lye concentration, place in a warm (turned off) oven to encourage gel and leave it there overnight for 18 to 24 hours before unmolding (a slow cool). I believe I've been able to track down the culprit that causes it, though....at least with my own formulas at any rate: the only times I ever seemed to get the crackle is when my soap experiences a hotter than normal gel, because of the particular FO with which I've soaped (I'm looking at you Kentish Rain from BB!). Whenever I've soap with that particular FO, I got a hotter than normal gel.....and a resulting crackle.



dixiedragon said:


> Gelling is all personal preference.
> 
> In some situations, you may want to to discourage gel. For example, if you are making a dairy milk soap, or a honey soap, or a milk and honey soap, that's a lot of extra sugar and it can be temperamental . Soaps with those extra sugars are more prone to overheating, which can lead to a soap volcano, alien brains, or separation. Here are some good pictures.
> 
> ...



If there are ever times that you'd like to CP your honey/beeswax soap, add your honey to your cooled-off lye water. It prevents all the temperamental drama that can ensue. My beeswax honey soap (5% honey and 3% beeswax) CP's great for me every time without any drama whatsoever. Believe it or not, there's so little drama that I actually have to encourage gel with mine the same as I do with my regular soaps or I get a partial gel. *My method of attack* that I used the first time I ever added beeswax to my honey soap, which I still employ.


IrishLass


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## penelopejane (Feb 15, 2019)

^^^ I gel my honey and my milk soaps too. I use the split method but I just mix my honey into the oils. I soap warm, though, at 110*F and haven’t had an overheating problem.
IL’s method of adding the honey to the lye sounds foolproof!

Dean:
Although the gelled part in a partial gel soap weirdly wears away first, a fully gel soap lasts well for me.


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## SaltedFig (Feb 15, 2019)

Misschief said:


> @SaltedFig, that is one of the most concise and informative posts I've read about gel. Thank you! I may just copy and paste your response into my notes so I can find it again.



Thank you @Misschief 



IrishLass said:


> SaltedFig, your post was most excellent!


Thankyou @IrishLass 



IrishLass said:


> I just wanted to beam in on your last paragraph, because I never seem to experience that which you wrote about the crackle.  It's an extremely rare thing that my soap ever comes down with crackle/glycerin rivers. I soap at 33% lye concentration, place in a warm (turned off) oven to encourage gel and leave it there overnight for 18 to 24 hours before unmolding (a slow cool). I believe I've been able to track down the culprit that causes it, though....at least with my own formulas at any rate: the only times I ever seemed to get the crackle is when my soap experiences a hotter than normal gel, because of the particular FO with which I've soaped (I'm looking at you Kentish Rain from BB!). Whenever I've soap with that particular FO, I got a hotter than normal gel.....and a resulting crackle.



The last paragraph is written from the point that crackle is occurring - it is about how to reduce or exaggerate it using the cooling period after the gel. (... 'a slow cool allows more crackle to develop, and a fast cool "sets" the soap and minimizes crackle' ...)

To get the crackle going in the first place is dependent on a number of factors, including recipe (disparate fatty acids are needed), water content (high water soaps crackles more easily/at a lower temperature) and temperature (as you have noted, a lower water soap will need a higher temperature to begin to crackle).

On your observation that you never experience crackle in your 33% lye concentration CPOP soaps unless there is a heating FO involved - that makes a lot of sense! Your water is moderate, which means the temperature needs to be increased slightly to achieve a decent crackle - the same soap, at 28% lye concentration, would likely not need any heating FO to crackle 

Trivia: The crackle that I found the hardest to create (so far) was the coconut salt bar I made for the minimalist challenge - that needed to be taken up to near volcano point to get the crackle effect (it involved a lot of "helicopter soaping", to get enough heat in, without taking it too far ).

@dixiedragon Are there any issues to watch out for, when adding honey into the HP soap batter by stickblending it in just before the pour?



Clarice said:


> ...@SaltedFig you are a treasure!



Thank you for the comment @Clarice ... the funny thing is - I AM literally sparkly at the moment (I've been testing bio-degradeable glitter!) 

@hungryhawaiian Welcome to the addiction


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## Dean (Feb 15, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> Thank you @Misschief
> 
> Thankyou @IrishLass
> 
> ...



I always appreciate ur intelligent, unbiassed and objective responses.  I was just saying so to another member.  In my book...


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## Marilyn Norgart (Feb 15, 2019)

I need to re-read and re-read this. thanks


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## Dawni (Feb 15, 2019)

I should say HP is the best way to ensure a full gel lol

@Dean, most of my HP bars don't bend either. The ones that have cured the longest, in fact, break apart in pieces when they're a sliver, not bend. Maybe you used too much water in those particular ones?

@SaltedFig I'm not dixiedragon but from the little experience I have with honey, one danger adding it into HP batter before pouring is not being able to mix enough/properly before the whole thing thickens. My first soap with honey has small brown pieces of "crystallized" honey within the soap that I suspect I didn't dilute properly and didn't mix properly.



Marilyn Norgart said:


> I need to re-read and re-read this. thanks


Me too! Haha


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## Dean (Feb 15, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I should say HP is the best way to ensure a full gel lol
> 
> @Dean, most of my HP bars don't bend either. The ones that have cured the longest, in fact, break apart in pieces when they're a sliver, not bend. Maybe you used too much water in those particular ones?
> 
> @SaltedFig I'm not dixiedragon but from the little experience I have with honey, one danger adding it into HP batter before pouring is not being able to mix enough/properly before the whole thing thickens. My first soap with honey has small brown pieces of "crystallized" honey within the soap that I suspect I didn't dilute properly and didn't mix properly.



Hi Dawni (reigning HP Queen)

My liquid to lye is 2:1.

How long do u cure?


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## Dawni (Feb 15, 2019)

Dean said:


> Hi Dawni (reigning HP Queen)
> 
> My liquid to lye is 2:1.
> 
> How long do u cure?


Pfft no queen here lols just happen to know my HP more than my CP lol

Then maybe shunt is right and it's the recipe? I also use 2:1 for most recipes, and I cure for more than 6wks, test bars aside. The bars I'm talking about above were made in September and October if I'm not mistaken. I'm not home so I can't check my notes. For sure though, those used a good percentage of butters, since I couldn't find lard or palm then. Maybe that's one reason?


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## melinda48 (Feb 15, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> Gelling can give a more translucent look to the soap (see soaps by @dibbles - some of her soaps are almost ethereal in the way they look!), and are easier to get a shine on the finished soap, with a smoother, sometimes waxier, look to the final soap.
> 
> Ungelled soaps are more opaque and pastel hued, with a creamy look to them.
> 
> ...


How long do you leave it in the oven before setting it out to cool?


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## hungryhawaiian (Feb 16, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> @hungryhawaiian Welcome to the addiction



I would say you have no idea, but you do! I’m sure we all do!  Every week I’m buying more and more stuff for soap making (and pen making, but lately mostly soap). I have a niece with eczema and other skin issues. Last night I purchased oatmeal, pine tar and castor oil. I’m probably gonna be doing some experiments this weekend. 

The reason for making this post is because I feel that reading, following and creating recipes are simple enough for me to understand, but the aesthetics of the completed soap are far more complex than the recipe itself. I want to have total control in all aspects of my recipes. I want the end product to be exactly what I planned for it to be, from workshop to the shower. 

Thank you ALL for the wonderful responses! I read everything but I’m horrible at responding to you individually, I apologize in advance... [emoji267][emoji8]


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## SaltedFig (Feb 16, 2019)

melinda48 said:


> How long do you leave it in the oven before setting it out to cool?


If you are asking about CPOP (Cold Process Oven Process), generally it means leaving the soap overnight in an oven that has been previously warmed on a low setting and turned off before the soap goes in (although there are many variations on temperature and time for CPOP).
I recall when the CPOP technique first came out, people were using the light of the oven to generate the heat - the soap would go in an oven and the light would be left on for constant warmth - with the changes in lighting and oven design, this doesn't always work now, so these days a gently preheated oven and insulated soap is more often recommended 
Personally, I tend to insulate and/or use warmed ingredients to ensure gel, rather than use CPOP.
(Advantages: I don't have to move the soap, I've already got it on a level surface and if something goes wrong, it's not in my oven!).



hungryhawaiian said:


> I would say you have no idea, but you do! I’m sure we all do!  Every week I’m buying more and more stuff for soap making (and pen making, but lately mostly soap). I have a niece with eczema and other skin issues. Last night I purchased oatmeal, pine tar and castor oil. I’m probably gonna be doing some experiments this weekend.
> 
> The reason for making this post is because I feel that reading, following and creating recipes are simple enough for me to understand, but the aesthetics of the completed soap are far more complex than the recipe itself. I want to have total control in all aspects of my recipes. I want the end product to be exactly what I planned for it to be, from workshop to the shower.
> 
> Thank you ALL for the wonderful responses! I read everything but I’m horrible at responding to you individually, I apologize in advance... [emoji267][emoji8]


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## penelopejane (Feb 16, 2019)

melinda48 said:


> How long do you leave it in the oven before setting it out to cool?


With CPOP you are not heating the soap.
The soap creates heat on its own as it saponifies.
You are just creating a micro environment around the soap to ensure complete gel happens.
Heat the oven to 110*F (use a thermometer or your hand to test this - it is the temperature of a hot day no more). Turn the oven off. Wrap your soap in a towel (put it in a cardboard box or cover it then wrap it) and leave it in the oven untouched for 12-18 hours. The soap should be cool by the time you take it out. This method requires no peeking because you will change the environment every time you peek.

I did this all the time before I got a mold that didn’t fit in the oven. Now I have a wooden mold with a lid. I put it in a polystyrene box with a lid. In summer I cover the polystyrene box with a doona in winter I use two doonas.

Your climate, your soaping room environment and your recipes might require different tweaks to get the perfect method.  If you don’t retain the heat well enough you will get partial gel. If it overheats you will get coarse soap with white, hard edges or cracks.


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## Cherrydene soapy (Feb 17, 2019)

So if I go back to one of the first comments about amount of water used - are you saying the more water you use the easier it is to gel your soap. When using soap calc or the forum calc the water ratio starts at 38% I have been changing it to 30 or 33%. Am I better off leaving it at 38% if I want to gell  my soaps??


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## penelopejane (Feb 17, 2019)

Cherrydene soapy said:


> So if I go back to one of the first comments about amount of water used - are you saying the more water you use the easier it is to gel your soap. When using soap calc or the forum calc the water ratio starts at 38% I have been changing it to 30 or 33%. Am I better off leaving it at 38% if I want to gell  my soaps??


The short answer is no.
You have to define and settle on one of the ratios.
Most people here use "lye concentration" (NOT water as a % of oils) there are good reasons for this go to DeeAnna's site to find out why. Soap calc defaults to water as a % of oils so you will have to click on the button for lye concentration everytime you use soap calc.

26% lye concentration (equivalent to 38% water as a % of oils) has a lot of water in a soap.  The soap will likely gel but it might bend as it cures and will take a long time to harden and get out of the mold.

30% lye concentration has less water and it should gel easily.   Use this if you are doing a lot of swirls and want a lot of time to play with the batter.

At 33% lye concentration has even less water you soap won't bend as it cures and it will come out of the mold easily, you are  unlikely to get ash and it will gel if you insulate it by covering it with a towel or putting it in a turned off oven.  This seems to be a happy medium for lye concentration.   Once you get quicker at making a soap and better at recognising emulsion you can do good swirls and it will give you enough time to play with the batter.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 17, 2019)

Cherrydene soapy said:


> So if I go back to one of the first comments about amount of water used - are you saying the more water you use the easier it is to gel your soap. When using soap calc or the forum calc the water ratio starts at 38% I have been changing it to 30 or 33%. Am I better off leaving it at 38% if I want to gell  my soaps??



I wouldn’t do full water, more likely to overheat or get glycerin rivers. I would do 29% though of 30 isn’t working. Then jut add a towel or two and you should be good.


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## Deborah Long (Feb 17, 2019)

@SaltedFig and @penelopejane - Thank you ladies so much for your awesome explanations!  Copy and paste are my friends, and you two have given me great notes!

Everyone here is so helpful, actually - thank you ALL!


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## Cherrydene soapy (Feb 18, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> I wouldn’t do full water, more likely to overheat or get glycerin rivers. I would do 29% though of 30 isn’t working. Then jut add a towel or two and you should be good.





penelopejane said:


> The short answer is no.
> You have to define and settle on one of the ratios.
> Most people here use "lye concentration" (NOT water as a % of oils) there are good reasons for this go to DeeAnna's site to find out why. Soap calc defaults to water as a % of oils so you will have to click on the button for lye concentration everytime you use soap calc.
> 
> ...


thank you great  explanation I will try this xx



penelopejane said:


> The short answer is no.
> You have to define and settle on one of the ratios.
> Most people here use "lye concentration" (NOT water as a % of oils) there are good reasons for this go to DeeAnna's site to find out why. Soap calc defaults to water as a % of oils so you will have to click on the button for lye concentration everytime you use soap calc.
> 
> ...


Can I put a wooden mould with a silicone liner in the oven? And do I cover it with anything? Xx


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## penelopejane (Feb 18, 2019)

Cherrydene soapy said:


> Can I put a wooden mould with a silicone liner in the oven? And do I cover it with anything? Xx


Yes you can.  Either cover it with timber or cardboard and wrap in a towel.
Try a standard recipe first then try milks etc.  I treat all my soap recipes the same way and none overheat. 

The oven only gets to 110*F which is the temp of a hot day. You are not cooking it. 
The soap itself will get hotter than that.


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## Richard Perrine (Feb 18, 2019)

My experience with gelling has been mostly aesthetic and accidental. I find that sugars and high temp pouring contributes to gelling. Sugar retains or creates more heat. The outer part of your soap cools quicker, so there is less likelihood of gelling than closer to the core of the soap where much more heat is retained, longer. I stop the gelling all together by soaping at lower temps, not using sugars or placing my individually moulded bars in the freezer/fridge after pouring. If the pour allows for quicker dissipation of heat, less gelling. HP and oven method does help me with complete bars of soap that are gelled. I do believer that gelled soaps, for me, tend to be softer, as someone else mentioned.


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## Misschief (Feb 18, 2019)

Ok, for the sake of clarity, could you please define "full water"? I've always found it a confusing term.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 18, 2019)

Marilyn Norgart said:


> interesting.....I always thought it was the other way around



I agree with you -- CP soap that gels is consistently firmer at the time of unmolding compared with CP soap that stays cool enough so it doesn't gel. After cure, CP soap that's ungelled is about as hard as gelled. 

When I do HP, the soap is typically softer than when I do CP. This is true even if I use exactly the same recipe with exactly the same amount of water, just use the HP process rather than CP.


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## IrishLass (Feb 18, 2019)

Misschief said:


> Ok, for the sake of clarity, could you please define "full water"? I've always found it a confusing term.



Full water equates to using anywhere from 1 part lye to 3 parts water (a 25% lye concentration), to about 1 part lye to 2.448 parts water (a 29% lye concentration). Others may differ, but I consider anything within those boundaries to be  a 'full water' amount. On SoapCalc, their default 38% lye as per oils setting will give you a 'full water' amount that falls somewhere within those boundaries, depending on the oils you are using.


IrishLass


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## DeeAnna (Feb 18, 2019)

Misschief said:


> Ok, for the sake of clarity, could you please define "full water"? I've always found it a confusing term.



It IS confusing, because full water means pretty much whatever an individual soaper wants it to mean. I don't see that it has a consistent meaning even here on SMF.

One definition of full water is whatever water you get when you use the default of "38% water as % of oils". This default causes the lye concentration to vary from a low of 26% to a high of 31% depending on the fats in the recipe. Since it's more helpful to base the water content on the alkali, not on the fat, the use of "38% water as % of oils" builds a lot of unnecessary variability into soap recipes.

If you assume a balanced blend of fats (for example, something like the "trinity recipe" of 1/3 palm, 1/3 coconut, 1/3 olive) and you use 38% water as % of oils, you'll see the lye concentration ends up around 28%. A lye concentration of 28% is another definition of full water for many people, but a 28% lye concentration is not mathematically the same as "38% water as % of oils" unless you always make the same recipe.

I was browsing the website of one well-known soaper recently. I learned she defines full water as 25% lye concentration and "discounts" her water from that. (I honestly don't remember who it was -- sorry.)

None of these definitions are wrong necessarily, but they don't mean the same thing. I can appreciate Irish Lass being comfortable with a range of numbers, but the definition needs to be consistent IMO in order to be useful, especially to newer soapers who are seeking clarity.

Furthermore, I question whether the idea of "full water" is all that helpful. I have yet to see a good argument to convince me that "full water" and "water discount" really do help soapers make better soap.


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## Misschief (Feb 18, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> It IS confusing, because full water means pretty much whatever an individual soaper wants it to mean. I don't see that it has a consistent meaning even here on SMF.
> 
> One definition of full water is whatever water you get when you use the default of "38% water as % of oils". This default causes the lye concentration to vary from a low of 26% to a high of 31% depending on the fats in the recipe. Since it's more helpful to base the water content on the alkali, not on the fat, the use of "38% water as % of oils" builds a lot of unnecessary variability into soap recipes.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for this, DeeAnna. I don't want to say you cleared it up for me but at least I'm getting an idea of what people are talking about. I will not be using the term "full water". 

Even though I've been soaping for almost five years, it's something that has always confused me. I set up my recipes (most of them) with anywhere from 33 - 35% lye strength. I use the full amount of the water that the recipe recommends. As far as I'm concerned, I'm using the full water amount. 

I think it's another one of those issues that confuses not just new soapers and it isn't really helpful unless there's a baseline for "full water" in a recipe, as you say.


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## Dawni (Feb 18, 2019)

I too am thankful for this reminder @DeeAnna. I always go back to your page regarding water when I need to double check what I'm doing because your suggestions are extremely helpful to newbies like me. 

I have been playing around with the numbers and taking notes, so that I can see eventually which amount of water goes best with which recipe. It's a long process for sure, trial and error with mostly errors lol 

Since I HP I also have to factor in water evaporation. I sometimes end up with a totally fluid batter that's super smoothly gelled and sometimes I end up with something resembling (my) room temp lard that's hard to break apart in the pot before it's fully cooked. When I get that I have to work it with a whisk before it resembles gelled soap and I must say I might be growing more muscle lol

I looked around if someone had some sort of guideline.. Like "use this much water if your recipe has high olive or similar oil" or "only use this much for high coconut" and while those two in particular are addressed in DeeAnna's site, I was struggling with questions like what if I have a high percentage of lard? What if it's a high butter soap? What if I want to add a ton of additives, with or without clays? How about using waxes?

Mainly this issue is because I have not been soaping long enough to know what each fat does while I'm cooking it, so I always tell myself to research each as best as I can while I'm not soaping. Like I said earlier, DeeAnna's page is a great starting point. I know eventually I'll understand, but I'll need time. 

All the websites say is "if you want a more fluid batter use more water" but then the question is "more than what?" lol


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## Cherrydene soapy (Feb 19, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I too am thankful for this reminder @DeeAnna. I always go back to your page regarding water when I need to double check what I'm doing because your suggestions are extremely helpful to newbies like me.
> 
> I have been playing around with the numbers and taking notes, so that I can see eventually which amount of water goes best with which recipe. It's a long process for sure, trial and error with mostly errors lol
> 
> ...


Can you point me in the direction of @DeeAnna page please xx


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## hungryhawaiian (Feb 19, 2019)

Cherrydene soapy said:


> Can you point me in the direction of @DeeAnna page please xx



@Dawni: ditto! Point us in the right direction please! [emoji6]


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## Dawni (Feb 19, 2019)

Cherrydene soapy said:


> Can you point me in the direction of @DeeAnna page please xx





hungryhawaiian said:


> @Dawni: ditto! Point us in the right direction please! [emoji6]


Here ya go kiddos lols

I suggest you explore that whole site after this page. Tons of helpful information there


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## penelopejane (Feb 19, 2019)

The link is in DeeAnna’s signature.


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## Dawni (Feb 19, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> The link is in DeeAnna’s signature.


Forgot about that. Probably coz I never see it. I don't even see mine. I use the browser coz the app is funky on my phone and I see no one's signature. I should remember that, though.. Thanks.


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## Cherrydene soapy (Feb 19, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> The link is in DeeAnna’s signature.


How do I find it????


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## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2019)

Thanks @penelopejane. When I read SMF on a mobile device, I don't see people's signature lines -- only on the desktop version. For other mobile users, here's a link to the index of articles on my website -- http://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.html


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## hungryhawaiian (Feb 19, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> Thanks @penelopejane. When I read SMF on a mobile device, I don't see people's signature lines -- only on the desktop version. For other mobile users, here's a link to the index of articles on my website -- http://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.html



Thank you! I’m using my mobile and also didn’t see a signature/link. =)


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