# All Natural



## eclecticsprint (May 10, 2017)

If you incorporate refined shea butter in your recipe, is it considered all natural?  What is the difference between all natural and organic?


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## toxikon (May 10, 2017)

"Natural" is a weird buzzword. What IS natural? Many chemicals come from the earth, are they natural? Lye-based soap will never fall under the "All-Natural" category because sodium hydroxide is an inorganic compound. 

Organic is a different matter - it refers to the farming protocol that the producer followed. But guess what? Sodium hydroxide cannot be considered "organic" either! 

So you'll never find a bar of lye-based soap that is 100% natural or 100% organic. 

Here's a good little write-up about "organic" soap:



> Because of their chemistry, bar soaps can never reach the 95% level of organic content. Organic soap and skin care products are among the most misrepresented organic products. This has to do with formulation issues, labeling requirements, and a misrepresentation of the standards. All bar soaps, and most skin care products, fall short of the 95% organic mark. Bar soaps require sodium hydroxide (NaOH, or lye) for their production. Sodium hydroxide is on the allowed list of non-organic ingredients that can be used in making organic products, and it accounts for approximately 10-15% of the ingredients, by weight (not including water or salt and depending on the recipe). Even if every other ingredient in a bar soap were certified organic, the soap would never have an organic content of more than 90%, as this is the maximum level of organic content in a bar soap.
> 
> Sometimes, manufacturers "cheat" a bit to reach higher organic content levels. Take lotion for example. A typical lotion has water among its ingredients, which does not count in any way toward organic content levels. However, by steeping organic herbs in this water first, some manufacturers claim their water is "organic," thus counting it as an organic ingredient and raising their products' organic content levels. As always, it is crucial to understand the standards and read the labels.
> 
> It is also important to verify whether or not a company's products are certified according to organic standards. Many companies claim to use organic ingredients or call their products organic; however, few have actual certification, which is the only proof for the claim. Part of the certification process includes proving an audit trail and showing the ability to trace any organic product sold back to its original organic ingredients.



So when it comes to shea butter... some people prefer raw, some people prefer refined. I believe most people prefer raw for soap. It's often cheaper.

Good article: https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/tips-and-tricks/natural-vs-organic/


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## DeeAnna (May 10, 2017)

I've been wondering the same thing about my lard. If I render it, is the lard "not natural?" Maybe I should just grind up the raw pork fat and use that in my soap? Would that be "more natural"?

Speaking seriously --

There are no objective rules or laws that control the use or meaning of the word "natural". It means whatever the person using the word thinks it means. Some people will draw the line between refined and unrefined shea. Some don't mind refined. If you're selling, the bottom line is that you have to know your consumers, learn what "natural" means to them, and act accordingly. If not selling, then follow your gut.

The USDA in the United States controls the definition of "organic." The word thus has a specific meaning by law. Not to say people don't misuse the word anyway, but if you want the rules that regulate "organic" you can look them up.


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## dixiedragon (May 10, 2017)

Re soap - I'd use whatever shea is cheaper. For lip balm, I really prefer ultra-refined to prevent graininess. For whipped shea I like to make a plain unscented one with raw shea.


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## IrishLass (May 10, 2017)

Never-mind the difference between 'all natural' and 'organic'. What I'd really like to know is what the difference is between 'natural' and 'all natural'. I jest, of course.  

The way the word 'natural' or the term, 'all natural' are bandied about on labels these days has got to be one of the biggest pet peeves of mine. I tend to shake my head and roll my eyes whenever I see them advertised on labels.

Since there are no legally defined parameters with 'natural' or 'all natural' like there are with 'organic' (at least here in the USA), they can mean whatever the person using them takes them to mean, which means they don't really have much meaning at all to me as a consumer. 

When it comes to shea butter, whether refined or raw, neither are 'natural' to my mind, because you can't find either of them 'as-is' in nature. The shea nut has to be processed by human hands using human ingenuity in order to extract the raw oil to begin with, the least method of which (according to the 24KariteGold website) involves grilling the shea nut then pounding it into a powder, and then boiling the powder in water to release the oil, which is then scooped off into vessels to set up. This produces what is labelled as 'raw' shea butter. I don't know how something that has been boiled can be considered as being raw, but what do I know? lol Refined shea butter is filtered and subjected to even further heat.

This most likely goes without saying at this point, but no, I personally would not consider a product made with shea, or even 'raw' shea, to be natural. It might be very lovely, though (I love shea butter).


IrishLass


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## CTAnton (May 10, 2017)

I saw the thread title and the hair on the back of my neck started going up..
There's a local shop owner..singing bowls, soaps, teas, crystals...has had a shop here in town for a long time...I was told she was selling some locally made soaps that I should check out.... she knows I make soap and said to me was I there to get inspiration?(I belong to SMF...you want to know about inspiration?) She said that these soaps were all natural. In fact, they were BETTER than all natural.! You can't make this stuff up...the same women was convinced that Green Irish Tweed is an essential oil blend...


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## shunt2011 (May 10, 2017)

We see it all the time. I just shake my head and walk away.


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## WeaversPort (May 11, 2017)

CTAnton said:


> I saw the thread title and the hair on the back of my neck started going up..
> There's a local shop owner..singing bowls, soaps, teas, crystals...has had a shop here in town for a long time...I was told she was selling some locally made soaps that I should check out.... she knows I make soap and said to me was I there to get inspiration?(I belong to SMF...you want to know about inspiration?) She said that these soaps were all natural. In fact, they were BETTER than all natural.! You can't make this stuff up...the same women was convinced that Green Irish Tweed is an essential oil blend...



I have it on good authority that my Zen Mocha Bubblegum Burnt Sugar fragrance is all natural. No petroleum products were synthesized from unnatural substances to create it. 

It does glow in the dark, however, and I was warned to wear a hazmat suit while working with it.


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## tanyatimco (Jul 19, 2017)

Although Shea butter is extracted from a seed, USDA classifies it as organic like coconut oil. It is not food in its rawest form so consuming it would be a personal choice. I don't consume oils regularly but enjoy them on my skin for their healing, softening, moisturizing, and anti-aging properties.


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## penelopejane (Jul 19, 2017)

toxikon said:


> So when it comes to shea butter... some people prefer raw, some people prefer refined. I believe most people prefer raw for soap. It's often cheaper.



I use refined because it is cheaper here in Oz and it is clean - no fleas or other bits of foreign matter! :shock:


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## alchemy_cake (Jul 19, 2017)

penelopejane said:


> I use refined because it is cheaper here in Oz and it is clean - no fleas or other bits of foreign matter! :shock:



FLEAS?! It never occurred to me that there might be fleas in my shea butter!


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## cmzaha (Jul 19, 2017)

I have found crickets many times in "Raw Shea Butter".


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## SunRiseArts (Jul 20, 2017)

Yikes! fleas!  Crickets!  Can shea butter have fleas!

I only buy refined....


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## Cindy2428 (Jul 20, 2017)

Sam's club had a good price on raw honey - never again. I used very hot water to filter it and I had all kinds of bee parts left. Mind you I was going to use it for tea.


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## Dahila (Jul 20, 2017)

so folks stop eating chocolate or drink coffee everywhere are parts of insects


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## SunRiseArts (Jul 20, 2017)

eww Dahila, please don't say that!


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## dixiedragon (Jul 20, 2017)

I've never seen insects or debris in my raw shea. I get it from Camden Grey. I guess it's filtered?

Bugs in my food don't bother me too much. I mean, it's not ideal but I don't think there's an actual health risk so, meh.

Rats worry me a lot more.

I did eat raw brownie batter out of the bowl last night, though.


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## penelopejane (Jul 20, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> I've never seen insects or debris in my raw shea. I get it from Camden Grey. I guess it's filtered?
> .



I think if it's filtered it's not "raw". My refined shea is filtered at low temp with no chemicals. There are lots of different refining methods, apparently, and some can lose more of the qualities of the raw product.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 20, 2017)

Cindy -- I'm bummed to hear you had such a poor experience with the honey. I keep bees and it pains me to hear people have bad experiences like this.

When I harvest honey, I use a strainer (like a jumbo-sized kitchen strainer) to remove any larger bits. I never heat my honey any warmer than the temperatures seen in the hive. It's true that sometimes bee parts can be on the combs as they come from the hive, but that is easy to remove by simple straining and should never be allowed in the product as the consumer gets it. What's just as important for raw honey is that it should also smell nicely floral or citrusy. If it has little aroma other than a generic "sweet" smell, it may have been gently heated and filtered with a very fine filter to remove pollen as well as the larger bits. If so, it should not be labeled as raw honey. (Most grocery store honey is treated like this so it doesn't crystallize.) If honey ever has burned or strong caramel/butterscotch aromas, it's been overheated and that's unacceptable for any kind of honey, whether raw or filtered.


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## kchaystack (Jul 20, 2017)

The caramel smell can depend on the type of honey.  Very dark floral sources like buckwheat can smell like caramel. But you are right - it should smell very floral usually. 

But I don't mind bee bits in my honey if I get it from an apiary.


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## Susie (Jul 20, 2017)

We kept bees when I was a kid, so I like the strong raw honey.  I don't mind a few bee parts, either.  It tells me that they did not over process it.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 21, 2017)

The shea butter from Camden GRey is unrefined, not raw. So it has had some minimal processing.


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## Steve85569 (Jul 21, 2017)

Thank you for this thread. I needed a good laugh.

Natural soap. Yep.
I was walking along in the woods and _right there_ on the ground was this fresh bar of soap. I thought to myself "I wonder if this bar of soap is _organic_ or if it somehow was sprayed with an enhancing chemical or insectiside?"

Never gonna happen.
Ever.
Soap is not nature made.
Never organic.
All soap needs lye to be made. On purpose by humans.

Bug parts are in nearly all food too. We just don't see most of them because they are so small. Don't look up thrips if you don't want proof.
When the filter starts to plug at the local store I know they've had a fresh batch of honey delivered. We have raw local and raw from another state. You can smell the difference and see it too. One of my favorite things this raw honey stuff.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 23, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> The caramel smell can depend on the type of honey.  Very dark floral sources like buckwheat can smell like caramel. But you are right - it should smell very floral usually.



True. There are unusual types of honey that don't smell floral or citrusy, but those are not as likely to make it to the consumer as the more typical "mixed wildflower" and "clover" types of honey.

For example, the bees may bless me with some goldenrod honey in the next month or two. It can smell like dirty sweat socks, has a dark caramel color, and the texture is oddly gelatinous. Weird to look at and smell. But the flavor is an amazing taste of heaven. 

I don't even share it with my mom -- the tiny bit of goldenrod honey the bees make is reserved for DH and me. On good white bread with real butter.


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## cmzaha (Jul 23, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> I've never seen insects or debris in my raw shea. I get it from Camden Grey. I guess it's filtered?
> 
> Bugs in my food don't bother me too much. I mean, it's not ideal but I don't think there's an actual health risk so, meh.
> 
> ...


My shea always came direct from ghana. I would also find chili peppers in it. But I also found a cricket in a block of palm shortening from Smart & Final one time.


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