# Dish soap



## TeresaT (Jun 14, 2015)

I've searched the site and can't find what I'm looking for, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.  Has anyone used NaOH and CO to make dish soap?  I know it's used to make a laundry soap and KOH is usually used for liquid soaps.  But I want a bar soap, not liquid.  Would 100% CO with 0 SF leave scum on the dishes?


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## not_ally (Jun 14, 2015)

Teresa, I can't find the thread, but I know I had posted asking about how to clean oily soap making bowls (I am probably the last person on earth without a dishwasher) and I'm pretty sure Morpheus recommended using a 100% CO/0% SF soap (not liquid) to clean them.  Re the scum, I think that would depend on your water.  If it is hard, there might be some scum even at 0% SF, and using CO, just from the interaction of the water and the oils.  Maybe someone else w/hard water can tell us.

But I bet it would be better than a regular soap, plus you are adding CA or EDTA now, right?  So even if there is a bit of scum, it might just drain away easily.   If you do it let me know, I keep meaning to try and getting side-tracked.  None of the regular dish-washing liquids I have bought - even the super industrial ones meant for restaurants - seem to work that well with soap batter bowls.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 14, 2015)

The problem with a bar soap is that it's tough to get enough soap in the dishwater or onto your scrub pad to effectively clean greasy dishes. That's why dishwashing soap is (usually) a liquid soap made with KOH. Being a liquid and more soluble in the dishwater than an NaOH soap, you can get more soap on the dishes faster. Nothing saying you can't use a bar soap for dishwashing, just that it's less convenient and efficient.

If you have hard water and use lye soap ... yes it will make soap scum no matter what. As N_A suggested, you need to include a chelator in your soap recipe or add a separate water softener powder to your wash water (Calgon Water Softener for example) or get a whole-house water softener to reduce this problem.


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## boyago (Jun 14, 2015)

I think if you made a High CO soap and shredded/ground it down your could put it in a big holed shaker and it would work.  This is what I was going to do after making laundry soap, but then I read the Irish Lass tutorial on glycerine method in the soap making 101 thread and tried it.  I'd like to encourage you to go ahead and give it a shot.  I think overall LS would be a way better way to go.


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## not_ally (Jun 14, 2015)

Good idea, Boyago.  For all you LS'ers, especially IL, a couple of questions after reading the first couple of pages of that thread (Lord have mercy, 49 pages!  I got stuck on the second page after reading a post from one of those people that POSTS like THIS every few WORDS and makes your BRAIN hurt.  Why do people do that?)

For the dish soap version, I assume is OK to just use CO and 0% SF?  Also, no need to use PS 80 if not adding scent, right?  And is KOH one of those things you can usually buy locally at a hardware store, like lye?  I have just made a bunch of re-stocking orders for basic items, don't want to order it separately and pay for shipping on just that if I can avoid it.

Sorry if those are obvious questions.  Any other modifications w/r/t applying this method to dish soap, if they occur to you, would be very much appreciated as well.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 14, 2015)

"...is OK to just use CO and 0% SF? Also, no need to use PS 80 if not adding scent, right? And is KOH one of those things you can usually buy locally at a hardware store, like lye?..."

1. Yes, it is. It will be very hard on your hands, so you might want to wear dishwashing gloves if you don't already. 

You'll have a harder time diluting a LS paste made with 100% or high % of CO and get a thick consistency, however. It's gonna be more runny just because lauric and myristic soaps don't have much of a "sweet spot" where the consistency will be honey-like. High oleic LS has more of a sweet spot and is easier to dilute to a honey-like consistency. As an alternative to diluting, you can just use the soap paste directly on a scrub pad without any diluting if you like. 

I use the Irish Lass/3Bees recipe for pretty much all types of household cleaning, including dishes, and it works well enough for me and doesn't tear my hands up. 

I don't know of any detergent, including Dawn, that can handle greasy soaping dishes easily, but Dawn comes the closest. I keep Dawn around for pretty much that one purpose, and use my homemade LS for everything else.

2. Nope, PS 80 isn't needed if you aren't scenting the soap.

3. I don't know of any local source for KOH, unless you happen to live close to a science supply house or chemical distributor. I think pretty much all hobbyists buy KOH through mail order -- Essential Depot, Lye Guy, etc.


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## TeresaT (Jun 14, 2015)

Yes, I am adding a chelator starting today.  I had to get a heavy duty drain cleaner for my shower after using homemade soap.  (In retrospect, I am quite sure it is because I am an impatient so & so and used the soap after is was "safe" and not "cured."  Yes, TEG--and all those that repeatedly correct us newbies--I now know:  Big difference.)   I was hoping to avoid having KOH and NaOH in the house.  Not that there's a fear factor or anything, just a financial angle.  I was using Dawn to clean my oily soaping bowls, etc, and ran out (N_A - my dishwasher died a couple of years ago.  My trash can now occupies that hole in the island.)  It did a great job, but I used a lot of it and I keep thinking it's counter-intuitive to spend money to get my soap making stuff clean.  Boyo, that's a great idea!  I have an awesome food processor that I can use to turn that into a powdery consistency after it cures.  I also have an empty oxi-clean bucket I can use to store it (those things are gold!).  Getting out the crockpot now!  Thanks everyone!  I'll let you know if it is a disaster or not.


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## not_ally (Jun 14, 2015)

Awesome, thanks as always, DeeAnna.  You answered questions I would have probably asked on follow-up, you and IL are unbelievably helpful.  Good to know espec. that 100% CO is probably not the way to go w/this, for some reason that was stuck in my head as the right formula for dishes, but of course it is different w/liquid soap (didn't think that one through.)

I did a search for KOH and figured out that I probably couldn't get it locally.  Although I found it curious that some ebay sellers (looks like the cheapest place to get a small-ish/8oz test amount) advertise theirs as being "food grade".  What on earth kind of food would you make with KOH?  I seem to remember a thread here about using lye (not KOH) to boil pretzels, but it just seemed weird to me.  No need to answer at length, anyone, I will never do it, it just made me scratch my head.


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## galaxyMLP (Jun 14, 2015)

According to Amazon, not ally, someone says they used it to cure green olives.


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## not_ally (Jun 14, 2015)

There you go, galaxy, there's something for everyone.  I wish there was a good use for dog poo, my little monsters are very prolific in that regard, just walked them.  No doubt someone out there has come out with some incredibly inventive way to reimagine it ....


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## kchaystack (Jun 14, 2015)

TeresaT,  

You know there are 2 solutions to your problem.  

One, let your soap batter containers sit for 2-3 days so the batter becomes soap and then wash them. 
Two, use an old towel or dish cloth and wipe out as much of the batter as  you can, and then put the wrap somewhere for a couple of days, then throw it in with a load laundry.  Like gardening clothes or other things that are not delicate. 

Both well work, but I do the second. I got a bunch of painters cloth at Home depot for 5 bucks. It saves on paper towels, and works great


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## boyago (Jun 14, 2015)

Did a quick search for a LA supplier and was pretty surprised I didn't find one immediately.  Did find this thread from here at SMF http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=28520 which no one responded to.  Looks like someone will do will calls but the poster didn't mention who.  ED has their free shipping if your willing to pay twice as much for the lye if calling it free shipping makes you feel better.


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## not_ally (Jun 14, 2015)

Thanks, Boyago.  No, no real soap suppliers here (not really even for stuff like butters, which sort of surprised me) I order online for everything except lye, and that only if I run out and am in a pinch, then will run to the local hardware store.  I'm not so much into paying 2X just for free shipping, so will probably just get an 8 oz tester amt from ebay and buy bigger amounts from somewhere else it looks like KOH is something I should have on hand regularly.


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## not_ally (Jun 14, 2015)

Ok, this idea would seem a little scary if I didn't know the source, but it is Lindy, who is awesome.  The link suggests adding some bleach to LS for batter caked soap stuff, she does not have a dishwasher either.  Has anyone done this?  No follow up post from her, but I think I might PM her to see if she did it and how it turned out if so.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36198

K, I would try your method, but I have a little apt. kitchen and just don't have the space to let the dishes sit for 2-3 days.  Even a day, which I always do so that it mostly saponifies, makes it hard to use it for actual cooking in between soaping spells.


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## TeresaT (Jun 15, 2015)

kchaystack said:


> TeresaT,
> 
> You know there are 2 solutions to your problem.
> 
> ...



Those are both great ideas!  I was watching a Soap Queen video and she suggested putting your soaping tools in a plastic bag for a couple of days to let everything saponify.  I did that this time around (after wiping out the biggest mess with paper towels).  The bag is next to my curing rack in the spare room.

I will definitely try the towel/dish cloth trick the next time.  I have a ton of shop rags I use for cleaning and wiping up after the dogs (can they not track water from their bowls just once?).  Those are stained beyond recognition.  Tossing the saponified clean-up rags in with the sheets or towels will save on laundry detergent.  And may be the kick I need to make my own laundry soap.

I did make the coconut soap last night.  Just to play it safe, I used citric acid at 2% instead of 1%.  I really like HPOP!  I was actually able to unmold and cut it last night, too.  I used the pot scrapings to make a small bar to was some dishes with and the soap worked great.  I washed a glass with it and the glass didn't have any residue on it.  I also left the soapy water in the wash basin overnight to see if it developed scum.  I am happy to report the scum was minimal; I really had to look for it.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 16, 2015)

Carolyn (cmzaha) uses 2% citric acid and says it does a good job for her too. Glad to see it all went smooth for you!

I usually wipe my soaping tools with old towels too. I put the towels in an old bucket high up and away from critter noses for a few days and then wash them with jeans or other heavy duty clothes. Works pretty good. I use Dawn detergent to clean my soaping containers and utensils after wiping them clean. Dawn just seems to work better at cutting that tough greasy residue compared with my handmade soap. This is pretty much the only reason why I have Dawn on hand anymore -- I like my own soap for everything else.


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## ngian (Jun 16, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> If you have hard water and use lye soap ... yes it will make soap scum no matter what.



DeeAnna do you mean that if a bar soap has 5% or 2-3% lye discount, it will create the same amount of soap scum when all others being equal? 

Soap scum is created because of the soap or the unsaponifiables and unsaponified fatty acids?


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## DeeAnna (Jun 16, 2015)

"...Soap scum is created because of the soap or the unsaponifiables fatty acids? ..."

Soap scum comes from the reaction between soap and the minerals in hard water. The amount of scum will be pretty much the same regardless of the superfat. Soap scum has nothing to do with the unsaponified fat.

Remember that the soap in your soap bar is a molecule formed by a sodium ion attached to a fatty acid? 

It turns out that the sodium ion can be bumped off the soap molecule surprisingly easily. If that happens, another kind of metallic ion can take its place. If the sodium ion is replaced with a calcium ion or a magnesium ion from your hard water, the result is a calcium soap or a magnesium soap.

Sodium, ammonium, and potassium soaps are soluble in water. Magnesium, calcium, and similar soaps are not soluble in water. When these insoluble soaps form in your bath water, they want to stick to any solid surface they touch. The result is a coating of sticky stuff on your skin and bathroom fixtures.


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## not_ally (Jun 16, 2015)

DeeAnna, is it true that certain oils, let's say, oh just for example lard , are worse for creating scum?  Please say no.

I bought some Dawn dishwashing liquid yesterday specifically in honor of my smf buds.


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## ngian (Jun 26, 2015)

not_ally said:


> DeeAnna, is it true that certain oils, let's say, oh just for example lard , are worse for creating scum?  Please say no.



I'm also wondering the same with Ally, as from various recipes for poo bars they avoid palm-lard and use less palmitic - stearic acids, maybe because soap scum is more noticeable with these acids in (long) hair.



http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## DeeAnna (Jun 26, 2015)

When I talk about soap scum, I'm talking about insoluble chemicals that are created when hard water minerals (calcium and magnesium being the main ones) react with your solid bar of sodium soap or your liquid potassium soap. The insoluble chemicals are also soaps -- calcium soap and magnesium soap -- but these particular soaps are not soluble in water at all, so the particles of scum want to stick to your skin or hair and not rinse off cleanly.

Another issue to consider is the solubility of various soaps in water. Palmitic and stearic soaps are not as soluble in water as other soaps such as lauric and oleic. This is especially true of sodium (bar) soap made with NaOH versus potassium (liquid) soap made with KOH. If you wash your hair or clothes with a sodium soap that is high in stearic and palmitic and don't rinse well in warm water, then a film of stearic and palmitic soap can remain. 

A soap film is not the same as soap scum. A soap film can happen even in super-soft water (water very low in hard water minerals). Soap scum happens when the water contains hard-water minerals.

Ways to minimize soap film are to rinse very well using really warm water, or to reformulate the sodium soap so it is lower in stearic and palmitic, or to use a potassium formulation of the soap. This kind of soap film will be more of an issue with recipes that are high in palmitic and stearic, and not so much in a soap made with a mixed blend of fats. Soap film is also not going to be as much of an issue when just washing the skin because it's easier to rinse skin cleanly. This is going to be more of an issue when washing hair or clothes, because it's harder to rinse hair or fabric as cleanly as bare skin.


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## not_ally (Jun 26, 2015)

That's interesting, DeaAnna.  Am I reading the following correctly?  

W/soap scum, it doesn't really matter what kind of oils you use, it has more to do with the water; ie; if there are certain hard water minerals in it, they will bind with the oils regardless of what kinds of oils they are (or the difference b/w oils is not significant) in the absence of chelators. 

W/soap film, the fatty acids make more of a difference (soft and hard water), soaps high in the "hardening" acids, eg, palmitic and stearic, will create more film, and chelators do not work on that as just rinsing well with warm water.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 26, 2015)

Yep ... you're hitting on all 8 cylinders, Not_ally.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 26, 2015)

not_ally said:


> I did a search for KOH and figured out that I probably couldn't get it locally.  Although I found it curious that some ebay sellers (looks like the cheapest place to get a small-ish/8oz test amount) advertise theirs as being "food grade".  What on earth kind of food would you make with KOH?  I seem to remember a thread here about using lye (not KOH) to boil pretzels, but it just seemed weird to me.  No need to answer at length, anyone, I will never do it, it just made me scratch my head.



These alkalis are often used in food preparation or as ingredients. The problem with them is how caustic they are in concentrated solutions, but they are quite non-toxic in dilution. I think the LD50 (a common measure of toxic dosages) for NaOH in rats is higher for table salt.


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## not_ally (Jun 26, 2015)

D, that's actually good news for my lard obsession, I (a) feel like I'm doing as much as I can w/r/t chelators and the scum, and (2) even though lard is kind of high in palmitic/stearic acids, I can always just rinse the film off w/warm water.  

TOMH, I think I will forgo further research on KOH and food.  I don't think Michael Pollan would approve (jk, have no idea if  he would or not, he is the only foodie god I could think of right now.)  B/t/w, I was reading a random thread and came across what is now one of my favorite words in one of your posts.  Kludge!  That is a great, great, word and one I had not come across before.


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## IrishLass (Jun 26, 2015)

topofmurrayhill said:


> These alkalis are often used in food preparation or as ingredients. The problem with them is how caustic they are in concentrated solutions, but they are quite non-toxic in dilution. I think the LD50 (a common measure of toxic dosages) for NaOH in rats is higher for table salt.


 
That reminds me of the old SNL skit called 'Shimmer Floor Wax' ("It's a floor wax and a dessert topping"!  lol): https://screen.yahoo.com/shimmer-floor-wax-000000185.html

Although not in the same way as 'Shimmer Floor Wax', my lye pulls double duty for me, too. My soft pretzels would not taste as awesome without a dip in a lye solution first before being baked.


IrishLass


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 26, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> That reminds me of the old SNL skit called 'Shimmer Floor Wax'



Excellent.


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