# Homemade Vanilla Stabilizer?



## AliOop (Oct 13, 2020)

Found this link to make one's own vanilla stabilizer at a fraction of the cost of pre-made. 

Have any of you tried making a homemade vanilla stabilizer, using this method or another one? If so, how did it work for you?  

I apologize in advance if this has been previously addressed, but searched the forum but didn't see any threads specific to this issue. There were a LOT of VS discussions so it is possible I missed it. Thanks!


----------



## Anstarx (Oct 14, 2020)

Ooh I'd like to try this or see if anyone had used it! I usually just embrace the brown but I'd love a way around!
So the article asked for sodium thiosulphate, which is usually sold as a cleaner to fish tanks. I will see if pet supplies store nearby carries it. Just about to do a batch of FO testing soap so might as well!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 14, 2020)

This is awesome, I have 2 lbs of this on hand already. I can't believe I have been paying good money for vanilla color stabilizer and I could have made my own.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 14, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> This is awesome, I have 2 lbs of this on hand already. I can't believe I have been paying good money for vanilla color stabilizer and I could have made my own.


I was hoping you might get into this one, Todd! I just purchased two bottles of stabilizer, and the price + shipping was ridiculous. 

Please report your results. If you find that this homemade version works well, then after I finish those up, I'm going to order some of the powder and make my own, too!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 15, 2020)

AliOop said:


> I was hoping you might get into this one, Todd! I just purchased two bottles of stabilizer, and the price + shipping was ridiculous.
> 
> Please report your results. If you find that this homemade version works well, then after I finish those up, I'm going to order some of the powder and make my own, too!


I have been using the sodium thiosulphate as a dechlorinator for several years.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 15, 2020)

The article mentions a 75/25 percent mixture but as smelly as the VCS is that I'm using now, I would have thought it would be a 50/50 mixture.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Oct 15, 2020)

@Todd Ziegler  Is this the right stuff?  


			Amazon.com


----------



## AliOop (Oct 15, 2020)

I also wonder if a 50% solution might be better, or if 25% is the max that will dissolve. Anyone know?

As a side question, do any of you adjust your water when using VS? If one is using equal amounts of FO and VS, that seems like a substantial change to the amount of liquid in the recipe - which is another reason that I’d rather use a more concentrated solution if possible.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 15, 2020)

Jersey Girl said:


> @Todd Ziegler  Is this the right stuff?
> 
> 
> Amazon.com


Yes that is the right product.


AliOop said:


> I also wonder if a 50% solution might be better, or if 25% is the max that will dissolve. Anyone know?
> 
> As a side question, do any of you adjust your water when using VS? If one is using equal amounts of FO and VS, that seems like a substantial change to the amount of liquid in the recipe - which is another reason that I’d rather use a more concentrated solution if possible.


I used a 50/50 solution when I was dechlorinating aquarium filters that I cleaned with chlorine. If you warm up the water you can dissolve it quickly. I'm pretty sure I made a 75% solution but I can't remember. As soon as I find mine I will let you know.

As far as how much VCS to use it kind of depends on the amount of vanillin in your FO's. Most people use a 1:1 ratio. If it is under 5% I will use less depending on what the seller says about how much the FO discolors the soap .

For example I have a maraschino cherry that is 4% vanillin and the description says dark tan, the safe usage rate is 6% FO which equals 4.8ozs in the batch I will use 1 ounce of VCS, that is the minimum amount I use. Some people use 50% VCS of the total amount of FO.

Between 6% - 10% vanillin will depend on how dark the seller says it will get.

I hope that I didn't confuse you because this is my method. I have asked several sellers how much to use and they always say 1:1 or 50% of total FO.

I forgot to mention that if you are using any kind of banana FO and even if it doesn't have vanillin in it. I highly recommend using VCS because I learned the hard way what banana can do.

I do not adjust my water because I believe that the VCS I use is more than 50% sodium thiosulfate but regardless the water amount will not affect your soap.

I had to edit my post a couple of times, so double check it.



AliOop said:


> I also wonder if a 50% solution might be better, or if 25% is the max that will dissolve. Anyone know?
> 
> As a side question, do any of you adjust your water when using VS? If one is using equal amounts of FO and VS, that seems like a substantial change to the amount of liquid in the recipe - which is another reason that I’d rather use a more concentrated solution if possible.





Jersey Girl said:


> @Todd Ziegler  Is this the right stuff?
> 
> 
> Amazon.com


I made a 1:1 solution and with warm water it dissolved completely and quickly. I am going to try a 1.5:1 and see what happens.

My final results were very surprising to me. I was able to dissolve a solution of 3 ounces of sodium thiosulfate to 1 ounce of distilled R/O water. I heated the water up to around 90°F and it dissolved within seconds with a little stirring. 

However even at 3:1 ratio it does not possess the same horrible smell as the VCS I got from aztec candle. 

I have an FO coming that has no vanillin, but it is a banana FO that I know causes discoloration, turning the soap a very dark brown. I'm going to pour 4 ounces of batter and add the FO with the sodium thiosulfate in a individual bar and then compare to a second bar with only the banana FO. 

I ended up creating a 1.5:1 solution and now I have to figure out how much of this solution I should use. Probably a 1:1 mixture.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Oct 15, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> My final results were very surprising to me. I was able to dissolve a solution of 3 ounces of sodium thiosulfate to 1 ounce of distilled R/O water. I heated the water up to around 90°F and it dissolved within seconds with a little stirring.
> 
> However even at 3:1 ratio it does not possess the same horrible smell as the VCS I got from aztec candle.
> 
> ...



Todd, did you see this part of the article?  If it’s not vanillin causing the discoloration it may be ineffective.

“It should be noted that there are limitations to vanilla stabilizers. Vanilla stabilizers will only prevent discoloration from vanillin and will not prevent discoloration from any other additives or causes. Vanilla stabilizers are not compatible with all fragrances due to the other components of the fragrance oil or other recipe additives which may render it ineffective.“

Another question.  This is what they are showing in the pic with the article. It says it readily dissolves in water In the product description.   Any thoughts?



			Amazon.com


----------



## dibbles (Oct 15, 2020)

This is interesting, and if it works it would be fabulous. I am wondering about the odor. The VCS I have is from BItter Creek and works great but smells horrible.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 15, 2020)

Jersey Girl said:


> Todd, did you see this part of the article?  If it’s not vanillin causing the discoloration it may be ineffective.
> 
> “It should be noted that there are limitations to vanilla stabilizers. Vanilla stabilizers will only prevent discoloration from vanillin and will not prevent discoloration from any other additives or causes. Vanilla stabilizers are not compatible with all fragrances due to the other components of the fragrance oil or other recipe additives which may render it ineffective.“
> 
> ...


Yes I read that part and they could be right. 

The picture is exactly what it looks like and it dissolves very easily in water. 


dibbles said:


> This is interesting, and if it works it would be fabulous. I am wondering about the odor. The VCS I have is from BItter Creek and works great but smells horrible.


The VCS I get from Aztec candle also smells horrible but it's possible that there could be two formulas that are used but without them disclosing what it is, we won't know for sure.

I found this patent for a VCS. 



			https://patents.google.com/patent/US20080305976A1/en


----------



## glendam (Oct 15, 2020)

I have used it, and tried it with a fragrance that goes to a deep brown and instead it went beige (so far it is still beige though a bit darker). I posted the pictures at the end of this video (the cover actually):


----------



## dibbles (Oct 15, 2020)

@glendam Thank you for sharing!


----------



## lsg (Oct 15, 2020)

glendam said:


> I have used it, and tried it with a fragrance that goes to a deep brown and instead it went beige (so far it is still beige though a bit darker). I posted the pictures at the end of this video (the cover actually):



Love the soap.  I am wondering if the use of titanium dioxide, along with the DIY vanilla stabilizer would give lighter results.


----------



## glendam (Oct 15, 2020)

lsg said:


> Love the soap.  I am wondering if the use of titanium dioxide, along with the DIY vanilla stabilizer would give lighter results.


I should know in a few days, I used it again yesterday, with the FO Gingerbread man from WSP,  which seems to have 5 or 6% vanillin.  I added TD to the mix.  So far it is looking yellow.  I did a 25/75% mix of thiosulfate and water, and added it at 50% of the FO amount.  It seems it is too little though, but we shall see!


----------



## AliOop (Oct 15, 2020)

Do any of you know whether the amount of the water used actually matters, as opposed to the amount of the thiosulphate in relation to the FO? Unless a certain amount of water is needed for dispersal, it would seem to me that making a higher concentration might be more effective. @dibbles, was it you who said that you use a VS:FO ratio of 1:1 or more?


----------



## dibbles (Oct 16, 2020)

@AliOop - yes, I use VS:FO 1:1. I think a lot of people do, but you may have read it in a post of mine.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 16, 2020)

I did some more research and found that Sodium Metabisulfite is another ingredient that I have found while reading through the patent that I posted above. It is an ingredient used in wine making. I'm going to get some today and see if I get that same smell from the VCS I am using now. I also want to see if this can be combined with the sodium thiosulfate.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Oct 16, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Yes I read that part and they could be right.
> 
> The picture is exactly what it looks like and it dissolves very easily in water.
> 
> The VCS I get from Aztec candle also smells horrible but it's possible that there could be two formulas that are used but without them disclosing what it is, we won't know for sure.


Ok...I was confused beca one type said pentanate


AliOop said:


> Do any of you know whether the amount of the water used actually matters, as opposed to the amount of the thiosulphate in relation to the FO? Unless a certain amount of water is needed for dispersal, it would seem to me that making a higher concentration might be more effective. @dibbles, was it you who said that you use a VS:FO ratio of 1:1 or more?


im curious about this too. If as @Todd Ziegler reports, the thiosulphate dissolves well in less water it would make sense to me to use less so there is less excess in your batter. But then you would need to calculate a usage rate of the more concentrated solution...my head hurts...these kind of calculations stress me out. Lol.


----------



## glendam (Oct 16, 2020)

Something curious is that the thiosulfate causes the water to drop in temperature.  I can’t remember exactly but I think by about 10 degrees.  I believe I included it in the video.  I wonder if less water would mean more cooling.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 16, 2020)

I have been doing more research and I am going to try and get some sodium sulfite today because I believe that may be the ingredient that we are looking for.



Jersey Girl said:


> Ok...I was confused beca one type said pentanate
> 
> im curious about this too. If as @Todd Ziegler reports, the thiosulphate dissolves well in less water it would make sense to me to use less so there is less excess in your batter. But then you would need to calculate a usage rate of the more concentrated solution...my head hurts...these kind of calculations stress me out. Lol.


3 ounces of the thiosulfate definitely dissolved with ease in 1 ounce of water. However I am not convinced that this is the ingredient we are after. I believe that sodium sulfite might be the one we are after. I hope to have some for testing by Monday at the latest.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 16, 2020)

That patent stuff was really interesting, @Todd Ziegler! I don’t have a science background so some of it was way over my head. I did see that there are several sulfites that might be combined for the solution, so I appreciate you investigating the other possibilities.

I also wasn’t sure if the reference to phenylacetaldehyde was in relation to the invented product, or to the results. But my thought was that most aldehydes smell pretty sharp and strong. So could  phenylacetaldehyde be the sharp smell we get from the premixed stuff?


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 16, 2020)

AliOop said:


> That patent stuff was really interesting, @Todd Ziegler! I don’t have a science background so some of it was way over my head. I did see that there are several sulfites that might be combined for the solution, so I appreciate you investigating the other possibilities.
> 
> I also wasn’t sure if the reference to phenylacetaldehyde was in relation to the invented product, or to the results. But my thought was that most aldehydes smell pretty sharp and strong. So could  phenylacetaldehyde be the sharp smell we get from the premixed stuff?


It could be but my nose smells a more sulfur scent. I will no more tomorrow when I get the sodium sulfite.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 16, 2020)

Oh, I forgot to mention that something I read in the patent information indicated that the *VS would be less effective in the presence of citric acid*. 

That is important information for those who use CA in their soaps.


----------



## Rogue-Soaper (Oct 16, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> This is awesome, I have 2 lbs of this on hand already. I can't believe I have been paying good money for vanilla color stabilizer and I could have made my own.


I'm going to try it too, I have some on hand that I used to get the green  (from the pool) pout of my son's girlfriend's hair.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 16, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Oh, I forgot to mention that something I read in the patent information indicated that the *VS would be less effective in the presence of citric acid*.
> 
> That is important information for those who use CA in their soaps.


That I didn't see but I don't use it so I would have glanced over it.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 18, 2020)

I found the source of the horrible smell,it is sodium metabisulfate. I have not gotten a chance to see what its dissolvibilty in water is yet and I also don't know if it is combined with the sodium thiosulfate, which I doubt. I will do everything tomorrow and update the post. The only thing I know with any certainty is that it smells just like the VCS that I use right now.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 18, 2020)

Wow, great discovery, Todd!  And this is the stuff used in wine-making, correct?


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 18, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Wow, great discovery, Todd!  And this is the stuff used in wine-making, correct?


Yes, it is used in wine making and sterilizing the equipment. I think this is what is being used in VCS's.

The VCS that I use is prone to evaporation, so my question would be, does that mean that there is a high percentage of the metabisulfate in the product or is evaporation a condition at any percentage?

I haven't made any samples yet but I thought I would seek some opinions on this.

I was only able to do a 25% solution in an ounce of water. It dissolved very quickly and it had a very strong sulfur smell like the VCS I use from Aztec candle.

I have noticed that Aztec candle carries crafters choice products but not their VCS so they might be making their own at Aztec. My question now is, why is Aztec so much cheaper than the rest. They charge $5.95 I think for 16 ounces but every place else charges a lot more. If most of the VCS for sale has that same smell, then they all must be using the same or something similar as the ingredients. 

I feel like I am missing something but I don't know what. It will be a few days before I can actually test the solution because I am waiting on the FO.


----------



## Jeboz (Oct 20, 2020)

This is exciting to follow - in Australia we have very limited access to colour stabilisers and those available are reported to be pretty ineffective. I have some thiosulfate on order and will buy some metabisulfate as well to try.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 22, 2020)

I haven't gotten a chance to use the metabisulfate yet. 

I tried a 50/50 solution and it dissolved very well. I then tried a 60% metabisulfate mix and it did dissolve, but very reluctantly. 

When I get the right FO delivered, I will try a 50% mixture.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 25, 2020)

I'm making a batch right now with my 50/50 metabisulfate solution. I'm using a cotton candy FO from WSP with a 9% vanillin. I am going to use a 1:1 mix with the FO which will be 1.8ozs of each. It says it darkens to dark brown. I'm using a synthetic white mica for half and a electric blue for the other half.

My recipe is 54% lard, 20% Coconut oil, 10% palm oil, 10% safflower oil high oleic, 6% castor oil and Sodium lactate.

I should know some results later today or buy tomorrow morning. I hope it works because this could be a real boost for all soap makers.

Edit: the vanillin is 9% and not 6%.and it shades to dark brown. WSP says the safe amount is 12.5% but I only used 6%

Here is what it looks like after 4 hours. I used white mica but the FO turned it just a little darker but nothing close to what the description of the FO says. I won't know until tomorrow what the soap in the mold did. I gelled it and now I am letting it harden. I will post pictures as soon as I cut it tomorrow.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 25, 2020)

That's awesome for a 9% vanillin soap, Todd! It will be interesting to see if it darkens over time. 

Any plans to try metabisulfate + thiosulphate? My thought was that maybe they are synergistic.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Oct 25, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I'm making a batch right now with my 50/50 metabisulfate solution. I'm using a cotton candy FO from WSP with a 9% vanillin. I am going to use a 1:1 mix with the FO which will be 1.8ozs of each. It says it darkens to dark brown. I'm using a synthetic white mica for half and a electric blue for the other half.
> 
> My recipe is 54% lard, 20% Coconut oil, 10% palm oil, 10% safflower oil high oleic, 6% castor oil and Sodium lactate.
> 
> ...


I’ve been doing a little research. Found this on a site for crafters choice vanilla stabilizer.  Then I looked up disulfurous acid, disodium salt and it looks like the metabisulfate is indeed the same thing. It does list it’s percentage in the CC stabilizer as 20-30% however.  I love this experiment!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 25, 2020)

AliOop said:


> That's awesome for a 9% vanillin soap, Todd! It will be interesting to see if it darkens over time.
> 
> Any plans to try metabisulfate + thiosulphate? My thought was that maybe they are synergistic.


That combination had crossed my mind but I will have to do some research and see how they would react to each other. 


Jersey Girl said:


> I’ve been doing a little research. Found this on a site for crafters choice vanilla stabilizer.  Then I looked up disulfurous acid, disodium salt and it looks like the metabisulfate is indeed the same thing. It does list it’s percentage in the CC stabilizer as 20-30% however.  I love this experiment!


That is great research. I only made 2ozs, so when I make more I will lower it to 30%. As a note, I used white mica and I'm not sure if I didn't use enough and the darkening that occurred is not a natural occurrence do to the color of the FO because that is exactly the color of the FO.

Here is another picture of the test batch. I pulled the sides away as far as I could and it is not the best picture. It is hard to see but it is much whiter than the separate test bars in the other picture. Also it is hard to tell how much the gelling affected the outcome. 

After it was to late, I realized, I should have poured out a little bit of soap without the VCS or mica as a comparison to the VCS treated soap. Maybe tomorrow I will try another batch, with better test bars.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 25, 2020)

My goodness, it looks very white! And no rind showing, either. I'm cautiously hopeful!!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 25, 2020)

AliOop said:


> My goodness, it looks very white! And no rind showing, either. I'm cautiously hopeful!!


Yes I'm very cautious too. 2pm EST will be 24 hours but it will be ready to cut by tomorrow morning.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 26, 2020)

Here is an update after 19 hours. The pictures are not the best.

The first picture is the un-gelled bar, absolutely no change. 

2nd picture is the gelled batch. The soap is a off white but in order to show the shading on the edge, I had to modify the picture. That's why it looks darker than it is. 

3rd picture is modified but it is definitely an off white or dull white, if you will. I circled the edge so that you can see the darkened edge. 

Note: I used 1.8ozs of FO but after looking at my notes I realized that I only used 1.5ozs of metabisulfate. I don't know if that had any effect on the VCS working properly but I don't think it did. Because @Jersey Girl research would be mean that I have a stronger formula than what they sell. 

I am going to try a mix of sodium thiosulfate and metabisulfate either today or tomorrow.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 26, 2020)

So if I am understanding this correctly, the actual color looks more like the last bars? If so, that's pretty amazing for the first try of a homemade solution! Of course you don't want the off-white or the shading if possible, but I'm guessing that you are going to nail this down. Great job!


----------



## glendam (Oct 26, 2020)

So here are my current results using sodium thiosulfate crystals,  the first photo with the darker ring is the day of cut. Second picture 2 days later, and latest one today, a week after cutting. I did plane them at some point but I think they are now back to the point they would have been regardless.  I am also attaching a picture of how dark the fragrance is supposed to discolor to.  This is similar to a prior experiment where the fragrance did not discolor the soap to a dark brown but did to a dark beige


----------



## AliOop (Oct 26, 2020)

Wow, @glendam that's quite an improvement over their test bar! Do you have any plans to try the metabisulfate that @Todd Ziegler is using?


----------



## glendam (Oct 26, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Wow, @glendam that's quite an improvement over their test bar! Do you have any plans to try the metabisulfate that @Todd Ziegler is using?


Most definitely, I have to see where to get it from.  I also plan on testing a 1:1 part next time, instead of 0.5:1  ratio to fragrance


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 26, 2020)

@glendam that is some good results. I think the combination of thiosulfate/metabisulfate might be the key to unlocking this mystery and some incredible $$$ savings. 

I got my sodium metabisulfate on Amazon. The brand that I got is the same one that most brewing supply companies sell. I will post the link.

This is the best deal I could find and it should last a long time. Compared to the cost that some of you are paying for VCS, this should be a huge cost break. 



			https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016DUKX0W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_TEVLFb2Y33YGB?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## glendam (Oct 26, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> This is the best deal I could find and it should last a long time. Compared to the cost that some of you are paying for VCS, this should be a huge cost break.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016DUKX0W/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_TEVLFb2Y33YGB?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


Thank you!  I was just looking at the one from make your own, it is cheaper ($3.50 a lb) but with the shipping it would be more costly.  It would make sense if I was buying more things from them.  Which incidentally, I did place an order from them for citric acid a few days ago, but they are unable to add items to orders once placed!


----------



## AliOop (Oct 26, 2020)

Rats, I too just placed a big (for me) order of oils and other stuff from Make Your Own (aka SaveOnCitric, aka ChemistryConnection - why do they have so many names, haha?). It probably wouldn't have changed the shipping much, if at all.  I still need to use up the VCS that I have from Bitter Creek, but would love to have this on hand when I'm ready to use it.


----------



## Saponificarian (Oct 26, 2020)

Just in case anyone in the US wants a good deal on the Sodium Thiosulphate, here ya go









						Sodium Thiosulfate, Anhydrous
					

Sodium Thiosulfate Anhydrous Bulk Chemical Darkroom




					stores.photoformulary.com


----------



## glendam (Oct 26, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Rats, I too just placed a big (for me) order of oils and other stuff from Make Your Own (aka SaveOnCitric, aka ChemistryConnection - why do they have so many names, haha?). It probably wouldn't have changed the shipping much, if at all.  I still need to use up the VCS that I have from Bitter Creek, but would love to have this on hand when I'm ready to use it.


Same here!  I could have gotten their metabisulfate, but my mind was on bath bomb making stuff!


----------



## AliOop (Oct 26, 2020)

Saponificarian said:


> Just in case anyone in the US wants a good deal on the Sodium Thiosulphate, here ya go
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gosh, this stuff is used in all kinds of different things: wine-making, photography, soap-making, aquarium cleaning. But will it make my coffee in the morning?


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 26, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Rats, I too just placed a big (for me) order of oils and other stuff from Make Your Own (aka SaveOnCitric, aka ChemistryConnection - why do they have so many names, haha?). It probably wouldn't have changed the shipping much, if at all.  I still need to use up the VCS that I have from Bitter Creek, but would love to have this on hand when I'm ready to use it.


Make your own sells on eBay and most of the time I get it faster than from their website. It is where I got my EDTA.



AliOop said:


> So if I am understanding this correctly, the actual color looks more like the last bars? If so, that's pretty amazing for the first try of a homemade solution! Of course you don't want the off-white or the shading if possible, but I'm guessing that you are going to nail this down. Great job!


The pictures are horrible but once I get my new lighting box tomorrow, I will get some better pictures and by then we will see what 48 hours shows. 

When I get back from the Dr tomorrow, I am going to make an orange/chocolate FO soap. The chocolate has 6% vanillin from save-on-scents, with the description saying medium brown.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 28, 2020)

Last night I made a chocolate FO soap with 6% vanillin using the 50/50 metabisulfate mix.

Today I'm going to use a 30% thiosulfate, 30% metabisulfate solution. I guess that it is a 3,3:1

I believe that the suppliers who sell VCS are using this blend. Because when I mixed the 2 together it had a very slightly green hue to it, which is exactly the color of the VCS I use from aztec candle. It is still clear, just a tint of green if you like. However I am not sure what ratio they are using.

I'm going to use a FO with 9% vanillin that turns dark brown today and I will post those pictures tomorrow.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 28, 2020)

That’s great, Todd! So appreciate you doing all the heavy lifting on this one.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 28, 2020)

AliOop said:


> That’s great, Todd! So appreciate you doing all the heavy lifting on this one.


You are all very welcome. I love figuring out how to make something on my own. 
Here's the batch from last night. In person, it is whiter than the picture but not a bright white. However I'm not sure if the off white color is being caused by the vanillin or other FO ingredients. I think it may be my mica. I'm using a different white mica than I used before the experiment. Plus the chocolate FO was very orange /red color and that could be affecting it. 

I will know a little bit more tomorrow, when the test batch is done. 

The picture is bad. That band at the bottom, is not on the soap in person. I have a new photo shooting box and the lights are not bright enough.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Oct 28, 2020)

Not to freak anyone out, but we need to be very careful when handling this and some type of good respirator needs to be used. Especially for those with sensitivities or breathing issues.


			https://www.livestrong.com/article/208572-dangers-of-sodium-metabisulfite/


----------



## dibbles (Oct 28, 2020)

Thanks for all of this Todd. The initial picture of the orange chocolate looks promising for sure.

eta: also meant to say that the soap is very pretty!


----------



## AliOop (Oct 28, 2020)

The soap is definitely very pretty!

@Jersey Girl thanks for the heads up on that! I’ve been thinking of getting a respirator to use when master batching my lye anyway (and for being outside during fire season, too).


----------



## Jersey Girl (Oct 28, 2020)

AliOop said:


> The soap is definitely very pretty!
> 
> @Jersey Girl thanks for the heads up on that! I’ve been thinking of getting a respirator to use when master batching my lye anyway (and for being outside during fire season, too).



Definitely get one. I was thinking of you when I read it. Apparently it is a very fine powder which is easy to inhale unknowingly.


----------



## Jackie Tobey (Oct 28, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Last night I made a chocolate FO soap with 6% vanillin using the 50/50 metabisulfate mix.
> 
> Today I'm going to use a 30% thiosulfate, 30% metabisulfate solution. I guess that it is a 3,3:1
> 
> ...


How are you dissolving the metabisulfate?  1:1 with water or different ratio. And the thiosulfate. I have just gotten in the thiosulfate and ordered the metabisulfate. I would like to try this and will also post results.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 28, 2020)

Jackie Tobey said:


> How are you dissolving the metabisulfate?  1:1 with water or different ratio. And the thiosulfate. I have just gotten in the thiosulfate and ordered the metabisulfate. I would like to try this and will also post results.


I dissolve the metabisulfate at 30% of what ever amount you want to make. For example, 10 ounces of water and 3 ounce of metabisulfate. 

For the sodium thiosulfate, you can dissolve it at 1:1 but I settled on a 25% solution. 

For the 2 together, I dissolved 30% of each with 10 ounces of water. 

3oz of thiosulfate and 3oz of metabisulfate in 10 ounces of water. I hope this makes sense to you. I'm terrible with ratios.


----------



## Jeboz (Oct 28, 2020)

AliOop said:


> That’s great, Todd! So appreciate you doing all the heavy lifting on this one.


I’ll second that! Waiting for my thiosulfate to be delivered.


----------



## Jackie Tobey (Oct 29, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I dissolve the metabisulfate at 30% of what ever amount you want to make. For example, 10 ounces of water and 3 ounce of metabisulfate.
> 
> For the sodium thiosulfate, you can dissolve it at 1:1 but I settled on a 25% solution.
> 
> ...


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 29, 2020)

Here are some early results from the sodium thiosulfate/metabisulfate. 

I didn't use much white in this soap but it is much whiter than the previous batches. It's definitely not an off white. 

The FO is a 9% vanillin that goes dark brown. So early results on the combo are promising, at least I think so.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 29, 2020)

That looks fantastic, Todd -- and I'm referring to the soap colors and design, not just the effectiveness of the homemade VS.

A couple of questions which you may have answered previously, so forgive me if these are repeats:

1. Did you notice any effect on how the recipe behaved, i.e., faster, slower?

2. Did you reduce your overall water/liquid in proportion to the amount of water in the VS solution?

3. You used 10 parts water to 3 parts thiosulfate to 3 parts metabisulfate, correct?

4. Can you estimate the cost (per oz or per gram) for the homemade solution? 

Cannot thank you enough for this. I love scents with vanillin in them, but had decided after my first VS purchase that I would probably rarely use them due to the VS cost, and because there is only so much brown soap that I want to have around.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 29, 2020)

1. The soap never misbehaved with either of the FO's that I used and I used the same recipe 

2. I didn't reduce my water in the recipe 

3. Correct on the amounts 

4. I paid $10 for a pound of the metabisulfate and for the thiosulfate I paid $9 for a pound. I used 7.5ozs of each for a 25oz bottle, which is close to $15 for 2 pounds of finished product. I was paying $13 a pound including shipping. So I am saving $5 per pound. I know for many of others they are paying a lot more for one pound.


----------



## Jeboz (Oct 29, 2020)

Such a gorgeous soap.

I have my solution ready to go today. Trying to decide which fo to use.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 30, 2020)

I'm doing another test today, which I probably should have done at the beginning. I'm doing an almost color free batch. I swirled in a little blue just because I like a little color.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 30, 2020)

Jeboz said:


> I have my solution ready to go today. Trying to decide which fo to use.


Please share pics of your results!


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Oct 30, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> The picture is bad. That band at the bottom, is not on the soap in person. I have a new photo shooting box and the lights are not bright enough.


This post in another thread may be helpful?
_*https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/what-soapy-thing-have-you-done-today.42556/page-901#post-856885*_


----------



## Jackie Tobey (Oct 31, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I dissolve the metabisulfate at 30% of what ever amount you want to make. For example, 10 ounces of water and 3 ounce of metabisulfate.
> 
> For the sodium thiosulfate, you can dissolve it at 1:1 but I settled on a 25% solution.
> 
> ...


Can these be dissolved in the water and stored in solution together to bears for different batch’s of soap?  Like you do with EDTA or TD.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Oct 31, 2020)

Jackie Tobey said:


> Can these be dissolved in the water and stored in solution together to bears for different batch’s of soap?  Like you do with EDTA or TD.


Yes they can but it evaporates very easily, so I put a cork in the neck of the bottle and then put the cap on. You can use either a rubber or natural cork, doesn't really matter. You can also use a piece of wax paper over the threads then screw the cap on. You just need to create a good seal to prevent evaporation.

Here is the test batch that I made without a lot of color. You can notice the big difference between the gelled and no gelling. It appears that gelling makes a difference even when using VCS. 

The next batch that I make, I will pour off some batter without the VCS and see what difference it really makes.



cmzaha said:


> There is nothing showing in the recipe.


Sorry. Probably because I did not make it a public recipe. Here it is below.






SoapDaddy70 said:


> Can someone take a look at the recipe I am going to use for my latest batch. From what I have been reading I am a little concerned with the amount of cocoa butter but I really like the numbers this recipe is giving me. This will be my 6th batch and I am looking to try a 2 color funnel pour.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry. That link wont work because my recipe is not public. See below response for the recipe.

This has happened with multiple recipes, but the most recent and most ugly one was: 
450g Coconut oil (30%)
215g great value shortening(17.5%)
280g lard (18.5%)
555g olive oil

436g frozen goat milk
218g NaOH (bottle claims 99% purity)

I weighed out 287g of soap batter and added 10g Sandlewood Vanilla FO from Brambleberry.

I actually bothered to check the temperature on the oils and lye right before i mixed them and they were both between 100F and 110F before mixing. I poured the batter into some silicone cupcake molds and left them on my 65F porch to solidify for a few hours before bringing them indoors to finish saponification sitting on top of my refrigerator. My house runs around 70F this time of year.

In the pictures, I show one of the soaps uncut and freshly cut open. On the outside you can see a couple white patches. I assume from DeeAnna’s comments that those could be butterfat soap bits. You can also see lots of dark splotches and specks. Those are what I assumed were poorly mixed patches of fragrance oil. On the freshly cut face I can see light tan specks (just barely a different color from the main soap) that I assumed were bits of FO. What do you think is going on here?












I should add that I have zap tested all the different colors of soap in the bar and have never gotten a zap.

This was also a batch where I hand stirred in the FO. I also managed to be patient add the lye to the milk slowly enough that I didn’t get that dark orange burnt milk color in my lye solution before adding it to my oils.
It will be a while before I can make soap again to test a no milk soap and know for sure what is happening, so i hope you experts can find something in these pictures that can satisfy this cat’s horrible curiosity!


----------



## Jeboz (Oct 31, 2020)

WOW is that some major difference!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 1, 2020)

Jeboz said:


> WOW is that some major difference!


Yes it is but since I don't have a VCS free bar to match it with, I'm not sure of exactly what is going on. I have some new FO's coming from natures garden that have 9% and 12% vanillin in them. 

In order to properly evaluate the homemade VCS, we need several people trying it, with FO's from different sources. 

I am reasonably confident of the effectiveness of the homemade VCS but I still have some nagging questions about the role that gelling is playing in the process. That is why I hope others will join in on the testing.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 1, 2020)

That is a HUGE difference between gelled and non-gelled. They don't even look like the same soap!

I really need to use my my current VS and then I promise to order some of the two sulfates (and a respirator!) to give it a go.

Can’t thank you enough for being the pioneer on this,Todd!


----------



## Jeboz (Nov 1, 2020)

I have the same issue with not having oils with vanillin content- early on I stopped buying it. I have some ‘no name’ oils which I’m sure will discolour but have no idea of the actual Vanillin content. I also have ordered some from a local fragrance oil supplier. This supplier now only opens her website one day a week for around 6 hours because of the huge demand during Covid. Then she fills and posts the orders over the week. Amazing!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 2, 2020)

Here is the non gelled one a few days later. For the most part, the soap has gotten whiter.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 2, 2020)

Looks great, Todd! 

Turns out I need some other stuff from SaveOnCitric, so I'm looking now for their sodium thiosulfate and their sodium metabisulfate. Looks like they are only selling large quantities right now, because the smaller quantities don't have an Add to Cart option, only "View Details." I may try to call them and see why the smaller amounts aren't listed for sale.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 3, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Looks great, Todd!
> 
> Turns out I need some other stuff from SaveOnCitric, so I'm looking now for their sodium thiosulfate and their sodium metabisulfate. Looks like they are only selling large quantities right now, because the smaller quantities don't have an Add to Cart option, only "View Details." I may try to call them and see why the smaller amounts aren't listed for sale.


You can always get it from Amazon. It is the same brand that independent brewing suppliers sell.

Today I am going to make a banana and cantaloupe soap. Although neither of them have any vanillin in them, banana FO's have always turned my soap brown. I am going to pour off some unscented and scented soap without the VCS, so I can compare the results.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 4, 2020)

This test did not further my results at all. Even without the VCS it didn't darken at all and the banana and cantaloupe remained true to SOS's description.

I have an FO being delivered today from natures garden "coconut coast" it has 8.2% vanillin and becomes a very dark brown. I'm going to do a brown mica and white mica in it today but I will pour off a small amount without color and VCS, and another small amount without color but with the VCS. I will add a screen shot of the FO in the soap.

I believe this FO will be key to finding out just how well the homemade VCS works. I remain very optimistic about the homemade VCS and I'm now going to refer to it as ZCS (Zigs Color Stabilizer) haha..... Lol! Sorry, just having some fun.


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 4, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I dissolve the metabisulfate at 30% of what ever amount you want to make. For example, 10 ounces of water and 3 ounce of metabisulfate....



Please be careful with the terminology.

The underlined formulation is 30% metabisulfate based on the weight of water only. This is not 30% metabisulfate in the finished solution. Chemists often use this method of explaining how they make mixtures, but it's important to be clear what basis you're using for the percentages or ratios so people don't misunderstand.

This finished mixture would contain 3/(10+3) X 100 = 23% metabisulfate. This 23% is a percentage based on the weight of the final finished mixture.

_"....For the 2 together, I dissolved 30% of each with 10 ounces of water...."_

Please don't mix units of weight and percentages. It's not that it's wrong to do so; it's more about minimizing the chances of people misunderstanding. Just say what you said next --

_"...3oz of thiosulfate and 3oz of metabisulfate in 10 ounces of water...."_

This advice is perfectly unambiguous and no percentages or ratios required.

FWIW, this would make a finished mixture that contains 18.75% thiosulfate, 18.75% metabisulfate, and 62.5% water by weight based on the weight of the final finished mixture.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 5, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> Please be careful with the terminology.
> 
> The underlined formulation is 30% metabisulfate based on the weight of water only. This is not 30% metabisulfate in the finished solution. Chemists often use this method of explaining how they make mixtures, but it's important to be clear what basis you're using for the percentages or ratios so people don't misunderstand.
> 
> ...


Thanks for fixing it. I'm not an expert in what I was attempting to explain, therefore it makes it hard to translate what is in my head, to something understandable on paper. As much as I love math, and I do, I was never any good at it.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 5, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Thanks for fixing it. I'm not an expert in what I was attempting to explain, therefore it makes it hard to translate what is in my head, to something understandable on paper. As much as I love math, and I do, I was never any good at it.


I can't say I love math. I'm actually pretty good at math concepts. But I make transposition mistakes ALL.THE.TIME.

What @DeeAnna said helps me a lot: keep the measuring units consistent, whether that is ounces, grams, percentages, or my favorite generic favorite, "parts."  So I would say: 3 parts each of thio and metab, to 10 part water.


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2020)

I can usually follow what people mean when they talk about parts, percentages, grams, ounces, furlongs, fathoms, fortnights, etc.. But I've seen many soap makers who have trouble with percentages or parts, but do okay following instructions when amounts are expressed in weights. 

Those of us who are more comfortable with the mathy stuff have the skills to convert a weight-based recipe to parts or percentages as seems useful.

Todd is doing a solid, thoughtful job of testing out his Zigs Color Stabilizer formulation. I'm only wanting to help with tidying up the numbers a bit so the info is clear to everyone.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 6, 2020)

@DeeAnna I really appreciate it. I am the first to admit that I am not good at mathematics and if it makes it easier to understand my "backwards" numbers, then the more the merry.

Here's my latest test and I feel really confident about the early results. This soap is 24 hours old.

The bottom picture went through full gel and there is no mica in the bottom half of the soap. Just what I used for the swirling.


----------



## Jackie Tobey (Nov 6, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> @DeeAnna I really appreciate it. I am the first to admit that I am not a good mathemation and if it makes it easier to understand my "backwards" numbers, then the more the merry.
> 
> Here's my latest test and I feel really confident about the early results. This soap is 24 hours old.
> 
> The bottom picture went through full gel and there is no mica in the bottom half of the soap. Just what I used for the swirling.


Did you use the amounts listed above?  10 oz water 3oz of each of the two products? And then do a 1:1 amount in recipe with FO?


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 6, 2020)

Jackie Tobey said:


> Did you use the amounts listed above?  10 oz water 3oz of each of the two products? And then do a 1:1 amount in recipe with FO?


Yes I did. It is a little early to claim complete success but I'm very pleased with the results so far.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 7, 2020)

This looks so promising, Todd! Thank you for all this work, and for keeping us updated as the soap cures.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 12, 2020)

Here is the last soap that I tested a week later. It has actually gotten whiter and lost some of the coloring from the FO.


----------



## SPowers (Nov 12, 2020)

The artcle referencle above calls the product Sodium thiosulfate - what I'm finding is Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate - are they one and the same.

@Todd Ziegler - is this regularly used in clean acquariums?  The product seems hard to find but my daughter has a huge acquarium and may have this if it's the same thing.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 12, 2020)

SPowers said:


> The artcle referencle above calls the product Sodium thiosulfate - what I'm finding is Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate - are they one and the same.
> 
> @Todd Ziegler - is this regularly used in clean acquariums?  The product seems hard to find but my daughter has a huge acquarium and may have this if it's the same thing.


.
From what I have read they are not the same thing. You should be able to find it easily on Amazon or eBay. I bought mine from eBay. But if you are going to buy just one ingredient I would recommend the sodium metabisulfate as the one you buy. 

I wwill find a link for the right one.

You can find it in smaller quantities on ebay. 



			https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GD5YZC4/ref=cm_sw_r_u_apa_fabc_q7uRFb3RS2KT5
		










						Sodium Thiosulfate 99% PURE MIN. (Sodium Hyposulfite) 1lb   | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Sodium Thiosulfate 99% PURE MIN. (Sodium Hyposulfite) 1lb  at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com
				




I have bought from the eBay seller without any problem.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 12, 2020)

@SPowers if you haven’t done so already, I recommend reading the whole thread, or at least from post #67 to the end, to see how and why @Todd Ziegler is recommending the metabisulfate instead of the thiosulfate that was recommended in the original link I posted. 

It’s been an interesting experiment, and he’s done a great job documenting everything with pics and descriptions of his recipe.


----------



## SPowers (Nov 12, 2020)

the Amazon link is for Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate and is not available in any case - and it's incredibly expensive to buy from Amazon.ca . The Etsy seller does not ship to Canada. 
I found this one on Etsy for a very good price and even worth it with shipping if it's the right product... would you mind looking at it and advising?https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/856233546/sodium-thiosulphate-crystals-powder?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=Sodium+thiosulfate&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 12, 2020)

SPowers said:


> the Amazon link is for Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate and is not available in any case - and it's incredibly expensive to buy from Amazon.ca . The Etsy seller does not ship to Canada.
> I found this one on Etsy for a very good price and even worth it with shipping if it's the right product... would you mind looking at it and advising?https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/856233546/sodium-thiosulphate-crystals-powder?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=Sodium+thiosulfate&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1.


The sodium metabisulfate is the better option. Were you able to find any of that? You can check SaveOnCitiric.com to see if they ship to CA. If not, look for a place that sells beer-making, wine-making, or photography supplies.


----------



## SPowers (Nov 12, 2020)

thanks... I will do that.


----------



## SoapDaddy70 (Nov 12, 2020)

AliOop said:


> The sodium metabisulfate is the better option. Were you able to find any of that? You can check SaveOnCitiric.com to see if they ship to CA. If not, look for a place that sells beer-making, wine-making, or photography supplies.


First off, immense props to @Todd Ziegler and everyone else involved in this. Ali, I believe the last solution Todd made actually contained both the sodium metabisulfate and the sodium thiosulfate. I could be wrong but I thought that is what I read in some of the previous posts.


----------



## SPowers (Nov 12, 2020)

I read the entire thread and it looks like both ingredients are required and mixed @ 3oz each to 10 oz distilled water.  I found the sodium metabisulfate on Amazon.ca for a great price and ordered it.  I'm still having trouble finding a small quantity of the Sodium thiosulfate -checked SaveOnCitric.com but will cost $50+ to ship a $10 pkg.  The Etsy option seems good if indeed it is the right product.  Can someone take a look and let me know?  TIA
Sodium Thiosulphate Crystals / powder  Electro Plating Supply | Etsy


----------



## AliOop (Nov 12, 2020)

@SPowers yes, that looks like the right stuff.

@SoapDaddy70 yes, that is correct, Todd used both. But as he noted above, if cost is an issue, or you can only find one of the two, then the metabisulfate appears to be the more important ingredient. That's what creates the distinctive acrid smell in the pre-formulated versions sold by soapmaking suppliers.

@Todd Ziegler were you planning to try a metabisulfate-only version to see if the thiosulfate is actually needed or not? No pressure... you've been amazing so far in your dedication to try different formulations and report back to all of us.


----------



## SoapDaddy70 (Nov 12, 2020)

Hate to put a damper on this post as people seem excited about this but how are we to know if the usage of either of these chemicals are safe to use in soap. Obviously they are being used in some fashion by the larger companies that sell VCS's, but home brewing something like this seems a little risky to me. Will the saponification process and the fact that it is diluted in water negate any negative side effects these materials pose to skin exposure? Just playing devils advocate here and also looking for some extra knowledge behind the chemistry involved. I have always been a half empty type of person so I apologize for the negativity but with the litigious society we live I would rather have my soap be brown than get sued.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 12, 2020)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> Hate to put a damper on this post as people seem excited about this but how are we to know if the usage of either of these chemicals are safe to use in soap. Obviously they are being used in some fashion by the larger companies that sell VCS's, but home brewing something like this seems a little risky to me. Will the saponification process and the fact that it is diluted in water negate any negative side effects these materials pose to skin exposure? Just playing devils advocate here and also looking for some extra knowledge behind the chemistry involved. I have always been a half empty type of person so I apologize for the negativity but with the litigious society we live I would rather have my soap be brown than get sued.


Very good question to ask, @SoapDaddy70 !

By looking up the patents and ingredient lists, Todd was able to verify that these ingredients are included in the VCS products that soap suppliers are already selling. These same ingredients are also used in making beer and wine, and for dechlorinating aquariums and pools. While they are generally regarded as safe to use, as @Jersey Girl noted in one of the posts above, the fine, dry powders can be very irritating to eyes, mucous membranes, and lungs. Thus, it is recommended to wear eye protection and a respirator when mixing them into the liquid solution.


----------



## Jeboz (Nov 12, 2020)

I made up a solution using Todd’s directions. I have a 5% vanillin fo which I used 3 days ago. Am taking daily pics of it and no discolouration on white part of soap yet.
I am interested about the smell - mine has little or no smell unless you just about tip your nose in it. I’ve read about people worrying the bad smell will stay in the finished soap. Why is mine not smelling? 
I will post pics after I collect at least a couple of weeks worth - I know the discolouration can take months.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 12, 2020)

Jeboz said:


> I made up a solution using Todd’s directions. I have a 5% vanillin fo which I used 3 days ago. Am taking daily pics of it and no discolouration on white part of soap yet.
> I am interested about the smell - mine has little or no smell unless you just about tip your nose in it. I’ve read about people worrying the bad smell will stay in the finished soap. Why is mine not smelling?
> I will post pics after I collect at least a couple of weeks worth - I know the discolouration can take months.


That's great to hear, @Jeboz - thanks for letting us know how it is going. I haven't tried the homemade version yet, so I cannot speak to the smell. I will say that the product I purchased from Bittercreek Candle Supply has a very strong and acrid smell, but everyone assures me that no hint of it remains in the finished soap.


----------



## Saponificarian (Nov 12, 2020)

So I finally made a batch with Sodium Metabisulphate. I decided to use the sodium metabisulphate as a percentage of my fragrance oil because it would be easier to apply that percentage regardless of whatever percentage of water or liquid I use for any given batch.

This experiment used the Sodium Metabisulphate at 30% of my Fragrance oil, dissolved in part of the vinegar for my batch, added to the fragrance oil. The mixture was then added to my batch.

The fragrance oil was Cashmere Cedar with 12% Vanillin from The Flaming Candle at 6% of my 500g batch. FO used was 30g and sodium metabisulphate at 30% was 9g.

I am impressed with the sodium metabisulphate at 30%. The soap is a nice yellow color, a little lighter than the color of unrefined Cocoa butter. Attached is a sample without the Sodium Metabisulphate.

It would have been nice to try the Sodium Thiosulphate too but I couldn’t find it in Canada and didn’t want to pay the shipping from the US. Someday soon....


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 13, 2020)

SPowers said:


> I read the entire thread and it looks like both ingredients are required and mixed @ 3oz each to 10 oz distilled water.  I found the sodium metabisulfate on Amazon.ca for a great price and ordered it.  I'm still having trouble finding a small quantity of the Sodium thiosulfate -checked SaveOnCitric.com but will cost $50+ to ship a $10 pkg.  The Etsy option seems good if indeed it is the right product.  Can someone take a look and let me know?  TIA
> Sodium Thiosulphate Crystals / powder  Electro Plating Supply | Etsy


I read the description and it looks like the right product.


SoapDaddy70 said:


> Hate to put a damper on this post as people seem excited about this but how are we to know if the usage of either of these chemicals are safe to use in soap. Obviously they are being used in some fashion by the larger companies that sell VCS's, but home brewing something like this seems a little risky to me. Will the saponification process and the fact that it is diluted in water negate any negative side effects these materials pose to skin exposure? Just playing devils advocate here and also looking for some extra knowledge behind the chemistry involved. I have always been a half empty type of person so I apologize for the negativity but with the litigious society we live I would rather have my soap be brown than get sued.


Good question.

Sodium metabisulfate is very safe. The FDA and the European union have approved for cooking, mainly in crackers and cookies and it is used as a preservative in the wine industry.

Sodium thiosulfate is also safe on the skin. It is used to dechlorinate aquarium water and you can also use it to lower the amount of chlorine in a swimming pool. It is also used to treat cyanide poisoning. It is also approved by the FDA and European union.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 13, 2020)

Jeboz said:


> I made up a solution using Todd’s directions. I have a 5% vanillin fo which I used 3 days ago. Am taking daily pics of it and no discolouration on white part of soap yet.
> I am interested about the smell - mine has little or no smell unless you just about tip your nose in it. I’ve read about people worrying the bad smell will stay in the finished soap. Why is mine not smelling?
> I will post pics after I collect at least a couple of weeks worth - I know the discolouration can take months.


Did you use the sodium metabisulfate or sodium thiosulfate or both of them together. Even as a small percentage, the metabisulfate should curl your toes when you smell it up close. The thiosulfate really does not have an odor to it.



Saponificarian said:


> So I finally made a batch with Sodium Metabisulphate. I decided to use the sodium metabisulphate as a percentage of my fragrance oil because it would be easier to apply that percentage regardless of whatever percentage of water or liquid I use for any given batch.
> 
> This experiment used the Sodium Metabisulphate at 30% of my Fragrance oil, dissolved in part of the vinegar for my batch, added to the fragrance oil. The mixture was then added to my batch.
> 
> ...


If the FO that I am using has a low or none at all vanillin content and doesn't go brown, I will also use it as a percentage of my FO weight. I have found that it is not necessary to use a 1:1 rate every time. I usually just match the percentage of vanillin, if it has it, and if it has no vanillin but changes the batter color I will just use my judgment.


----------



## earlene (Nov 13, 2020)

*Todd*, my supplies just arrived today, so in reviewing all the previous posts, and reading tons of stuff online about these chemicals, their dilution rates (based on temperature apparently) and so forth, I'm sort of in a quandery as to how to go forward.  It's probably my mind being too caught up in too many things and going off in other directions (other stuff is going on, too), so please bear with me while I try to sort this out and get a better picture of the bottom line (if there is one as yet.)  I have a few questions to help clarify and to help me understand:


1. Did you keep track of temperatures at all when you made your solutions*?*  Both have different dilution rates based on temperature. (sodium metabisulfite solubility link) (sodium thiosulfate solubility link) If you say you used 'room temperature' please specify what room temperature is in your house, because we may not enjoy the same indoor temperatures. (I prefer cooler temps in the winter, but warmer temps in the summer, so my house internal temps fluctuate as such.)

2. Did you ever try glycerin as your dilutant*? * Sodium metabisulfite is 'very soluble in glycerin' per the above link.

3. What is your combined solution formula at this point*?* (30% each + 40% water as in post #67*?*)  
*ETA:  Ratio: 3:3:10 with 10 being water.  Percentages= 18.75% each of the two chemical + 62.5% water.*
_Corrected based on later answer and *DeeAnna'*s post #88 on page 5 of this thread._

4.  What is your chosen dilution for sodium metabisulfite alone*?*  And why*?* 

5.  What is your chosen dilution for sodium thiosulfate alone*?*

6.  Also, but not a question more like a curious difference in our findings when reading the material we have sought on this topic:  According to my reading sodium thiosulfate and sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate are not necessarily mutually exclusive, because several sources I read say the former (sodium thiosulfate anhydrous) is more readily available in the latter form (sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate).  It is the latter that *glendam* used in her homemade VS (post #17).  (link)  (link)


I'd also like to do some testing of each alone. I plan to use  the same soap formula and Dragon's Blood FO. 
So I'm looking at a minimum of 5 side-by-side comparison test soaps:

Control:  No vanilla stablizer
Bitter Creek North Vanilla Stabilizer
DIY VS using solution combining sodium metabisulfite and sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate 
DIY VS using sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate solution (25% to 75% water ? is what glendam & the blogger used)
DIY VS using sodium metabisulfite solution  (you used 50% to 50% water, right and later 30% to 70% water)


I think that's all I need for a comparison study, other than the formula for the dilutions; once I have that worked out, I'll get started.


I have all the safety PPE I need to work with these.  The MSDS for sodium metabisulfite also suggests wearing boots as skin protection for this chemical, so I will have to wear something other than flip flops for this. That's okay, I have my Wellies by the back door & can easily put them on. I usually only wear them when working in the mud, but they can do double duty. Good ventilation and eye washing stations are also recommended, so I will keep that in mind as well, but with all the PPE, it seem highly unlikely to need to do an eye wash.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Nov 13, 2020)

Okay. So now I have a quick question... Do you think I can use the diluted Sodium Metabitsulfite I have on hand for sanitizing bottles & jars as a Vanilla Stabilizer? 

Dilution Rate: 2 oz. SM powder per gallon of water.









This is the fragrance I will be using:
*WSP Jasmine Vanilla* - EO & FO Blend 504*
Beautifully garnished silk white jasmine petals. This engaging rose fragrance comes to full bloom with creamy vanilla and classic rose. This oil contains 4.5% of essential oils and resins.  *Vanilla Content:* 6%

PS: I gave the contents of the bottle a quick sniff. The scent reminded me of "smelling salts" ... strong, quick, sharp, acrid.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 13, 2020)

Hi @Zany_in_CO , 

You definitely have the correct dry powder (sodium metabisulfate) but it doesn't sound like the dilution rate is correct for this application, that is, making VS for soap. You've only added 2 oz of powder to 128 oz (1 gallon) of water. Todd's ratios were at minimum 3 oz powder to 10 oz water.  

HTH, and please show us pictures after you give it a try! I'm living vicariously through everyone else until I use up the commercial VS that I purchased RIGHT BEFORE I found the blog post telling us how to make our own. OY.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 13, 2020)

earlene said:


> *Todd*, my supplies just arrived today, so in reviewing all the previous posts, and reading tons of stuff online about these chemicals, their dilution rates (based on temperature apparently) and so forth, I'm sort of in a quandery as to how to go forward.  It's probably my mind being too caught up in too many things and going off in other directions (other stuff is going on, too), so please bear with me while I try to sort this out and get a better picture of the bottom line (if there is one as yet.)  I have a few questions to help clarify and to help me understand:
> 
> 
> 1. Did you keep track of temperatures at all when you made your solutions*?*  Both have different dilution rates based on temperature. (sodium metabisulfite solubility link) (sodium thiosulfate solubility link) If you say you used 'room temperature' please specify what room temperature is in your house, because we may not enjoy the same indoor temperatures. (I prefer cooler temps in the winter, but warmer temps in the summer, so my house internal temps fluctuate as such.)
> ...


The batch that I made for testing was 3ozs each of metabisulfate and thiosulfate in 10ozs of water. DeeAnna gives a better breakdown of the math in her post. 

I only used distilled water for diluting the ingredients. 

If you want to warm the water up to around 100°F it will help the metabisulfate dissolve faster and thiosulfate will dissolve quickly at any temperature. 

@Zany_in_CO metabisulfate is used as a sanitizer and a preservative in wine making.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Nov 13, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Todd's ratios were at minimum 3 oz powder to 10 oz water.


Boo hoo. In case you didn't notice, that bag of powder was empty. 


AliOop said:


> HTH, and please show us pictures after you give it a try! I'm living vicariously through everyone else until I use up the commercial VS that I purchased RIGHT BEFORE I found the blog post telling us how to make our own. OY.


 Yes, that does help. Thank you. Like you, I'm living vicariously through this fascinating thread. OY! Indeed!


Todd Ziegler said:


> @Zany_in_CO metabisulfate is used as a sanitizer and a preservative in wine making.


Thanks. As it happens, Todd, I got the small supply I had from a lotion maker whose DH made home brew. As I am retired and trying to use up the leftovers from my soap and lotion making days, I was hoping to be able to give it a go. Oh well.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 14, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Boo hoo. In case you didn't notice, that bag of powder was empty.
> 
> Yes, that does help. Thank you. Like you, I'm living vicariously through this fascinating thread. OY! Indeed!
> 
> Thanks. As it happens, Todd, I got the small supply I had from a lotion maker whose DH made home brew. As I am retired and trying to use up the leftovers from my soap and lotion making days, I was hoping to be able to give it a go. Oh well.


The stuff you have is the right stuff. I was just saying that it is also used in wine making.


----------



## earlene (Nov 14, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> The batch that I made for testing was 3ozs each of metabisulfate and thiosulfate in 10ozs of water. DeeAnna gives a better breakdown of the math in her post.
> 
> I only used distilled water for diluting the ingredients.
> 
> If you want to warm the water up to around 100°F it will help the metabisulfate dissolve faster and thiosulfate will dissolve quickly at any temperature.




Okay I looked back at DeeAnna's post #88 on page 5 of this thread (Yesterday I kept looking for it, but for some reason it eluded me.)  Okay, then the ratio was: 3:3:10, so the percentages come out to 18.75% each of the Na-Metatsulfite & Na-Thiosulfate and 52.5% distilled water.

OR

18.75% or 3 parts sodium metabisulfite
18.75% or 3 parts sodium thiosulfate
62.5%  or 10 parts distilled water


I will heat distilled water to 100° F first for faster dilution

Thank you, *Todd*.

Can you clarify for me regarding questions #4 & #5 I had?  I am still a bit unsure which you used &/or why.  I was hoping for all the information in one summary because searching back and forth through all 6 pages (so far) of this thread is getting cumbersome and I keep losing track of things.  I don't want to make a mistake that I have to then toss out or try to re-batch.  I'm sorry to put you on the spot, it's just how my mind works.


*4. *_ What is your chosen dilution for sodium metabisulfite alone*?*  And why*?* _
I think you tried 2 different dilutions. (Your Post #34 - was that about sodium metabisulfite? 0.25 ounces to 1 ounce water?  25% dilution?)  (Your Post #36 50% solution?  But you also mixed a 60% solution; did you ever try it?)  In your post #41, you said you would make a 30% solution)  So I'm wondering which dilution you have settled on as best for only sodium metasulfite.

*5.* _What is your chosen dilution for sodium thiosulfate alone_*? *
You settled on a 25% solution per your post #67.  Why*?*  Was that based on trying a 50% solution and seeing no difference in the results between the two?  I may just go with that because of the OP's link to the DIY VS.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 14, 2020)

earlene said:


> Okay I looked back at DeeAnna's post #88 on page 5 of this thread (Yesterday I kept looking for it, but for some reason it eluded me.)  Okay, then the ratio was: 3:3:10, so the percentages come out to 18.75% each of the Na-Metatsulfite & Na-Thiosulfate and 52.5% distilled water.
> 
> OR
> 
> ...


Sorry for the confusion, I misunderstood what you were asking and I really don't mind answering your questions. I'm off work waiting for surgery, so I have plenty of time. If you would like, I can send you a personal message with what you need to know. 

Question 4. I chose 30% for the metabisulfate because that is how much was being used by crafters choice in their VS and percentages higher than that get more difficult to dissolve. Also according to the patent that I found for VS also used 30%.

Question 5. I went with 30% for the thiosulfate because, again, that is what was being used in the crafters choice VS. 

Thiosulfate can be dissolved at 1:1 rate and all the way up to 2:1 but research showed that there was no reason to use that much.


----------



## earlene (Nov 14, 2020)

Thank you, *Todd*.

Good luck with your surgery.

I got your PM, and greatly appreciate your clarifications.  I will plan on doing some testing next week, I believe.


----------



## Jeboz (Nov 14, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Did you use the sodium metabisulfate or sodium thiosulfate or both of them together. Even as a small percentage, the metabisulfate should curl your toes when you smell it up close. The thiosulfate really does not have an odor to it.


Hi Todd, I used a mix of both and had no obvious smell. I’ll check the product again but I’m sure they were 100% - one crystals and the other a fine powder.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 22, 2020)

Here are some updated photos of the homemade VCS. I took the pictures today and then I put the pour date underneath them. 

I know that these are early results but a couple of the soaps have actually improved. I think in the short term it's going very well but time will tell.

Forgot the pictures


----------



## earlene (Nov 22, 2020)

That's pretty impressive, *Todd*!

At exactly 28 days from creation to this update, the 
Cotton Candy soap made on 10/25/2020 looks unchanged.




It's the only one I could find a before & after picture for, but it's the oldest, so the quite exciting. 

You stated you used the solution that was equal parts metabisulfate and distilled water at a 1:1 mix of FO to DIY VS. 


Todd Ziegler said:


> 50/50 metabisulfate solution. I'm using a cotton candy FO from WSP with a 9% vanillin.


 And your FO usage in recipe was 6%


Todd Ziegler said:


> I am going to use a 1:1 mix with the FO which will be 1.8ozs of each. It says it darkens to dark brown. I'm using a synthetic white mica for half and a electric blue for the other half.
> My recipe is 54% lard, 20% Coconut oil, 10% palm oil, 10% safflower oil high oleic, 6% castor oil and Sodium lactate.



For each of the ones picture today, did you use the same VS formula, or were there any differences?  I am curious how the mix of the two chemicals are performing.

The one made on 11/9/2020 has a pinkish tinge in the white area surrounding the orange/yellow color.  Is that new?  It sort of looks like color bleed, but it's the wrong color.  I didn't find a before picture, so not sure what it started out looking like.  Which DIY VS solution did you use with this one?





My agenda for tomorrow is to start the DIY VS tests here; when I get it started I'll post updates here, if that's okay.


----------



## SPowers (Nov 22, 2020)

Saponificarian said:


> So I finally made a batch with Sodium Metabisulphate. I decided to use the sodium metabisulphate as a percentage of my fragrance oil because it would be easier to apply that percentage regardless of whatever percentage of water or liquid I use for any given batch.
> 
> This experiment used the Sodium Metabisulphate at 30% of my Fragrance oil, dissolved in part of the vinegar for my batch, added to the fragrance oil. The mixture was then added to my batch.
> 
> ...



Did you use the Sodium Metbisulphate only?  Turns out the other ingredient on Etsy was $8.50 + $8.50 shipping but it was only 90 grams.  That seems expensive given the small quantity so I didn't order it.  If I can use just the one that would be ideal.  Thanks.


----------



## Saponificarian (Nov 22, 2020)

SPowers said:


> Did you use the Sodium Metbisulphate only?  Turns out the other ingredient on Etsy was $8.50 + $8.50 shipping but it was only 90 grams.  That seems expensive given the small quantity so I didn't order it.  If I can use just the one that would be ideal.  Thanks.



Yes, just the Sodium Metabisulphate.


----------



## SPowers (Nov 22, 2020)

Great - good to know!  Can't wait to give it a try.  Thanks


----------



## AliOop (Nov 22, 2020)

Todd, all of your soaps looks fantastic! Can't thank you enough for figuring this out and for sharing all your experiments.


----------



## earlene (Nov 23, 2020)

For an hour or three, I worked on formulating a testing plan and it became so intricate, my mind needed diversion.

I feel a need to design a very stringent testing criteria with at least 3 variants of solutions, with controls to compare against, rigidly calculated & documented and so on and so forth. My gosh, you'd think I was planning on setting up protocols and procedure manuals and lab books and all that stuff. Ah well, it is a result of my training and previous professions. Anyway, I had to take a break and concentrate on something else.


I'll get back to it later tonight or tomorrow after my hair cut.  Tonight I am planning on staying up until it snows so I still have a few hours.  I want to introduce Kitty Baby to snow & it's only going to last a little while if it lasts at all.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 24, 2020)

earlene said:


> That's pretty impressive, *Todd*!
> 
> At exactly 28 days from creation to this update, the
> Cotton Candy soap made on 10/25/2020 looks unchanged.
> ...


Let me clear up what I meant by 50/50. I made separate solutions for the first test batch. Each had 30% of the metabisulfate and thiosulfate, I then mixed equal parts of each solution and that is where the 50/50 comes from. 
All the other batches have the 3,3:1 solution. With a 1:1 VS/FO. You can't see it in the new cotton candy picture but the darkning has actually lightened up. 

The other picture that you pointed out is just the red that I used for the color. 

I have not used the two ingredients separately. I have always used the two together. Now some of the FO's that I have used don't have any vanillin in them but they do alter they do discolor the soap. In the FO's without any vanillin I used 50% VCS of the FO. So if the FO was 4ozs I used 2ozs of VCS. 


AliOop said:


> Todd, all of your soaps looks fantastic! Can't thank you enough for figuring this out and for sharing all your experiments.


You're welcome 

I am going to try and make a new post that includes all the pictures together, along with usage amounts.



SPowers said:


> Did you use the Sodium Metbisulphate only?  Turns out the other ingredient on Etsy was $8.50 + $8.50 shipping but it was only 90 grams.  That seems expensive given the small quantity so I didn't order it.  If I can use just the one that would be ideal.  Thanks.


I have not used the metabisulfate by itself. However I think someone else in this thread has but the thread has gotten so long that I am going to do a new summary thread. This way we get all the information that has been collected into one post.



Saponificarian said:


> Yes, just the Sodium Metabisulphate.


I really think that using just the metabisulfate by itself will give you the same results. It is my opinion that the thiosulfate is meant for MP soap and not CP soap. However I have not tried the thiosulfate by itself. I am going to do post a summary thread today sometime and if you are interested in contributing to it, just pm me and I will explain more.



AliOop said:


> Todd, all of your soaps looks fantastic! Can't thank you enough for figuring this out and for sharing all your experiments.


Thanks but your original post is what started everything. So don't forget to take a bow. I am also liking the name "aligoop color stabilizer!

Here is a side by side comparison of how well the homemade VCS is working.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 24, 2020)

@Todd Ziegler  Zigali’s then


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 25, 2020)

Oooh, Zigali's Vanilla Stabilizer has a nice ring!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 25, 2020)

AliOop said:


> @Todd Ziegler  Zigali’s then


I was just wondering the other day, about what kind of impact this will have for the hobbyist soap maker, all the way up to those who sell the soap they make. 

Will it be a game changer for some, will it allow some people to use VCS now, where they couldn't before because of the cost. 

I was also wondering how fast this will spread to the soap making community at large and outside of this forum. Or will it go no further than this forum. Just some thinking.



DeeAnna said:


> Oooh, Zigali's Vanilla Stabilizer has a nice ring!


Yeah it really does roll of the tongue nicely. Should we put it up for a vote?


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Nov 25, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Will it be a game changer for some, will it allow some people to use VCS now, where they couldn't before because of the cost.


That would apply to me. I've never used VCS... for two reasons: (1) I don't soap with vanilla FO all that often. (2) From what I've read, it isn't all that effective so I learned to accept the brown. 


Todd Ziegler said:


> I was also wondering how fast this will spread to the soap making community at large and outside of this forum. Or will it go no further than this forum.


When you consider we have (on average) 35 members posting daily and 500 "Lurkers" daily, it is very likely to catch on throughout the soap making community, sooner rather than later. Your results are impressive.  Keep up the good work!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 26, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> That would apply to me. I've never used VCS... for two reasons: (1) I don't soap with vanilla FO all that often. (2) From what I've read, it isn't all that effective so I learned to accept the brown.
> 
> When you consider we have (on average) 35 members posting daily and 500 "Lurkers" daily, it is very likely to catch on throughout the soap making community, sooner rather than later. Your results are impressive.  Keep up the good work!


Thank you. Now you can afford to use some FO's that have a little vanillin in them. 

I have one more test that I am going to do in the next few days. I have been using the VCS at a 1:1 rate but I am going to try 0.5:1 rate. Then I am going to match the percentage of the vanillin content and the VCS. For example; if the recipe calls for 6ozs of FO and the FO contains 10% vanillin, then I will use 10% of 6ozs which will be 0.6% VCS. 

I want to find out if you have to use 1or 0.5 :1 ratio. If I can use less and still get good results then that will lower the cost.


----------



## TheGecko (Nov 27, 2020)

@Todd Ziegler

First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.

Second...I am sorry that I had previously ignored this thread. Given the exorbitant cost of VCSs, I had simply embraced the brown. And even the idea of a 'homemade' VCS wasn't enough to tempt me for the same reason I don't make bath bombs...too many 'non-soaping' ingredients. But in the thread "Working with Discoloring FOs", your Homemade VCS came up again and I starting thinking my Autumn Harvest FO and how I had to toss out my original design idea because of how very, very brown it discolors (dark chocolate). And so here I am...and just three ingredients, one I already have?!? Okay then.

Third...curiosity question. @glendam mentions using ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin) which I understand is a natural antioxidant extract. Would either of you, and/or @DeeAnna recommend it's usage with your formula, and if so, at what rate? Also, where would be the best place to purchase it (I search Amazon and got a ton of results).

Thank you again.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 27, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> @Todd Ziegler
> 
> First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you found the thread and are going to give it a try.

I would never patent the formula because first, I wasn't the only one involved with making it, 2nd it is meant for the soaping community and the satisfaction of helping others is its own reward. Everyone can pay me by sending pictures of their successes.

On the ROE, I use it in all my oils but I add it to the bottle of oil that I store them in, so that the unused portion lasts longer. So far I have not had a problem with any of the soap that I have used the homemade VCS in. You can definitely add it as you use it but you get more of a benefit by adding it to the source bottles of oil.

This is the recipe that I used to make the VCS.

3ozs metabisulfate, 3ozs thiosulfate in 10ozs of distilled water 

I have someone who is going to help me with turning those numbers into percentages and I will put it in the summary thread. 

Most people and me use it at a 1:1 ratio which works well for FO's with vanillin in it that go to dark brown. For FO's without vanillin but still discolor the soap you can lower it to 1/2:1. If the FO has vanillin in it but the end color is light tan or a dark tan you can match the percentages.
For example, I have an FO that has 3% vanillin in it but it only gets a light tan color. So I use 3% of the total FO amount. If my recipe calls for 10ozs of FO then 3% VCS would be 3ozs.

If you don't understand what l said please just ask me because I know I am not great at numbers.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 27, 2020)

@Todd Ziegler thanks for explaining how much to use. However, I think what you refer to as 3% VCS would actually be 30%, since 3oz (of the VCS) equals *30%* of the 10oz (of FO). 

But that hurts my brain to try and apply that to more difficult sets of numbers. Hopefully someone who is better at putting formulas together will jump in and help us here! @TheGecko, as an accountant, can you help us, please??


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 27, 2020)

AliOop said:


> @Todd Ziegler thanks for explaining how much to use. However, I think what you refer to as 3% VCS would actually be 30%, since 3oz (of the VCS) equals *30%* of the 10oz (of FO).
> 
> But that hurts my brain to try and apply that to more difficult sets of numbers. Hopefully someone who is better at putting formulas together will jump in and help us here! @TheGecko, as an accountant, can you help us, please??


Yes that would be right but and I can't stress this enough, it is only when the FO colors the soap a light tan or yellow. Which can be caused by something other than vanillin too. If you don't feel comfortable with that little of VCS then please use a 1:1 ratio because it won't hurt your batch and it's better to error on the side of caution.


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Nov 27, 2020)

I’m also late to the party because I have mostly embraced the brown, but this is an amazing thread.  Thank you Todd for leading the way. I’ve been wanting to make a Cherry Garcia soap for soooo long, but it needs to be mostly white and the FOs are so high in vanillin that I’ve left them sitting around taunting me for a year.  I think I will give this kitchen chemistry VCS a try.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 27, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I’m also late to the party because I have mostly embraced the brown, but this is an amazing thread.  Thank you Todd for leading the way. I’ve been wanting to make a Cherry Garcia soap for soooo long, but it needs to be mostly white and the FOs are so high in vanillin that I’ve left them sitting around taunting me for a year.  I think I will give this kitchen chemistry VCS a try.


Actually @AliOop took the first step and I just ran with it. 

I have used it in soap with TD and mica soap and so far it has held up. However I do believe that gelling plays a role in it. 

I have had 3 batches that I didn't get to 130°F and they had a little discoloration around the outside at the coolest part of the soap. But the discoloring seems to disappear after a week or so during curing. This is just anecdotal evidence and I have not done a controlled test for it. If you look at the side by side comparison picture that I posted a few days ago, you can just how well it is working so far.


----------



## glendam (Nov 27, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> @Todd Ziegler
> 
> First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.
> 
> ...


I got it (ROE) at Wholesale supplies plus.  First to avoid DOS but also to see if it helps in a small way to avoid the discoloration along with the thiosulfate.  I do believe it helps bc I am waiting for a fragrance to discolor and it hasn’t discolored as bad as it did the first time, in the portion of the soap where I did not use thiosulfate.


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Nov 27, 2020)

+1 to @AliOop for getting the ball rolling!


----------



## AliOop (Nov 27, 2020)

Thanks, but I can't take much credit for reading an article and then asking folks here if they'd ever tried it.   

@Todd Ziegler really did all the heavy lifting, with some great practical help from @glendam, and of course, @DeeAnna!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 28, 2020)

glendam said:


> I got it (ROE) at Wholesale supplies plus.  First to avoid DOS but also to see if it helps in a small way to avoid the discoloration along with the thiosulfate.  I do believe it helps bc I am waiting for a fragrance to discolor and it hasn’t discolored as bad as it did the first time, in the portion of the soap where I did not use thiosulfate.


That is good to know. I really appreciate it the input. 

I am pretty much convinced that the metabisulfate is the ingredient doing the most work and the thiosulfate is a booster shot taking care of the rest of the discoloring ingredients.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Nov 28, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> That is good to know. I really appreciate it the input.
> 
> I am pretty much convinced that the metabisulfate is the ingredient doing the most work and the thiosulfate is a booster shot taking care of the rest of the discoloring ingredients.



@Todd Ziegler  So what percentage would you use of metabisulfate if using only that?  Would this be the stuff I would need?


			https://www.amazon.com/Duda-Energy-meta05-Sodium-Metabisulfite/dp/B004NKZBPC/ref=sr_1_2?crid=344A4GHPC8RID&dchild=1&keywords=metabisulfate+powder&qid=1606574670&sprefix=Metabisulfate%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-2


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 28, 2020)

Jersey Girl said:


> @Todd Ziegler  So what percentage would you use of metabisulfate if using only that?  Would this be the stuff I would need?
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Duda-Energy-meta05-Sodium-Metabisulfite/dp/B004NKZBPC/ref=sr_1_2?crid=344A4GHPC8RID&dchild=1&keywords=metabisulfate+powder&qid=1606574670&sprefix=Metabisulfate%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-2


That is the right product. 

I'm not good at the percentages on this and I am waiting for someone to respond with help on that. What I can do is give you the numbers that I used. 

I mixed 3ozs metabisulfate and 3ozs thiosulfate into 10ozs of distilled water.

If don't have thiosulfate or don't want to use it, I think you will be just fine without. I really believe that the metabisulfate is doing the most work in preventing discoloration. 

That is the mix that I have been using for the tests. I do have some percentage numbers that @DeeAnna gave me but I am a little confused about them. If you want to see them, they are in this thread. 

I will find those numbers for you.

To make about 8 fluid ounces of VS, mix 1.84 ounces metabisulfate and 1.84 ounces of thiosulfate in 4.32 ounces of room temperature distilled water. This same mixture in grams -- mix 52.1 grams metabisulfite and 52.1 grams thiosulfate in 138.8 grams distilled water.


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 28, 2020)

What Todd said. I'm helping him with the numbers and managed to give wrong advice a little earlier. He's corrected his numbers in Post 155, so all is well now. Here are the correct numbers for his vanilla stabilizer mixture again, just in a little different format --

Your recipe of 3 oz meta (metabisulfate) and 3 oz thio (thiosulfate) in 10 oz water translates to these percentages by weight --

18.8 % meta
18.8% thio
62.4% distilled water

To make approximately 8 fluid ounces (approx 225 mL) of this formulation --

1.5 oz meta
1.5 oz thio
5.0 oz water

Translating to grams, this 8 fluid oz mixture would contain --

42.5 grams meta
42.5 grams thio
141.4 grams water


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 28, 2020)

Thank you very much! I'm not a good scientist.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 28, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Thank you very much! I'm not a good scientist.


Not so! You've done a great job science-ing on this one!


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 28, 2020)

Don't apologize for your abilities as a scientist -- you're doing far better than most, Todd. Very few people have the patience to do the methodical testing and evaluation you're doing.

It's also normal procedure to have others review one's calculations. I have to confess when I was in grad school, my major professor corrected my math a few times -- as you can see, I don't always get it right. So you don't need to apologize for that either.


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Nov 28, 2020)

I did a little web hopping this morning with the goal of learning more about the use of sodium thiosulphate and sodium metabisulfite in cosmetics, especially in terms of safe usage rates.  Apologies in advance if information here duplicates anything posted above.

First off, an Aussie soap making supplier has posted results after 5 months for MP soap made with homemade vanilla stabilizer (thiosulphate), here:








						DIY Vanilla Colour Stabiliser for MP Soap
					

Using a readily available and relatively cheap chemical called sodium thiosulphate.




					www.baysidesoap.com.au
				




I found a brief discussion of use of thiosulphate and sodium metabisulfite for lotion at this link: sodium thiosulphate....looking to reduce browning (oxidation) with Vanillin — Cosmetic Science Talk

where a poster, Ozgirl, contributed this on why sodium thiosulfate can be listed as fragrance:

“The loophole is probably to do with the IFRA Transparency List.

IFRA Transparency List

IFRA describes two types of ingredients used in fragrances - Fragrance ingredients and Functional ingredients.

*Functional ingredients* are substances that are not used to provide odor or malodor coverage, but which are essential for the functionality or durability of a fragrance compound – such as an antioxidant, preservative, diluent, solvent or color.

Sodium thiosulfate is listed as being used in fragrances as a functional ingredient so if it is added to your fragrance to stop oxidation you can probably get away with listing the combination (fragrance + sodium thiosulfate) as "fragrance".”

That led me to the IFRA website where I found an August 2019 document from the Cosmetic Ingredient Review Expert Panel (CIR) titled “Safety Assessment of Sulfites as Used in Cosmetics.” I skipped to the end of the long document and on page 52, the conclusion stated is:“The CIR concluded that Sodium Sulfite, Potassium Sulfite, Ammonium Sulfite, Sodium Bisulfite, Ammonium Bisulfite, Sodium Metabisulfite, and Potassium Metabisulfite are safe as used in cosmetic formulations.”

I haven’t been able to find a similar document that specifically discusses sodium thiosulfate/thiosulphate, but found this 2014 CIR document:


			https://www.cir-safety.org/sites/default/files/inorganic%20sulfates.pdf
		


which on page 92, states “... the CIR expert panel concludes Sodium Sulphate to be safe as used in rinse-off formulations, and safe up to 1% in leave-on formulation.”

also, this:








						EWG Skin Deep® | What is SODIUM THIOSULFATE
					

EWG’s Skin Deep rates thousands of personal care product ingredients, culled from ingredient labels on products, based on hazard information pulled from the scientific literature and industry, academic and regulatory databases.




					www.ewg.org
				




As for getting to a standardized formula, the pentahydrate version of thiosulfate, which I’ve read is more shelf stable, has 5 attached water molecules compared with the anhydrous form.  I think that means more of it is required to get equivalent concentrations of thiosulfate in a solution compared with using the anhydrous form.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 28, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I did a little web hopping this morning with the goal of learning more about the use of sodium thiosulphate and sodium metabisulfite in cosmetics, especially in terms of safe usage rates.  Apologies in advance if information here duplicates anything posted above.
> 
> First off, an Aussie soap making supplier has posted results after 5 months for MP soap made with homemade vanilla stabilizer (thiosulphate), here:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the hard work. You can also find usage safety from the FDA for metabisulfate and thiosulfate because they are both used in the food and medical industry. I know that metabisulfate is approved for internal consumption but in no way am I recommending that. It is used as a preservative for wine.


----------



## Zany_in_CO (Nov 28, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> Your recipe of 3 oz meta (metabisulfate) and 3 oz thio (thiosulfate) in 10 oz water translates to these percentages by weight --


Hip, hip, hooray!


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Nov 28, 2020)

This relates to using anhydrous sodium thiosulphate vs, the less expensive sodium thiosulphate pentahydrate form.

From the web:

Molecular weight of sodium thiosulfate is 158.11
Molecular weight of sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate is 248.19
Molecular weight of 5 water molecules is 5x18 = 90 (which nicely accounts for the weight difference between the two forms)

The less expensive, pentahydrate form of thiosulfate is 63.7% sodium thiosulfate by weight and the rest is water. I think that means 1.57x by weight of the pentahydrate form would be required to get the same concentration in solution for a given weight of the anhydrous form (sodium thiosulfate).


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 28, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> This relates to using anhydrous sodium thiosulphate vs, the less expensive sodium thiosulphate pentahydrate form.
> 
> From the web:
> 
> ...


I think I understand what you mean. You are comparing the two forms of thiosulfate and how much to use for the same effecisy rate. Am I close?


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Nov 28, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I think I understand what you mean. You are comparing the two forms of thiosulfate and how much to use for the same effecisy rate. Am I close?


I will need to go back to find your numbers.  I was looking at a 5lb bag of the pentahydrate form on Amazon for 16.99 including shipping.  By the calculations I did above, it would yield to 3.2 lbs of sodium thiosulfate, which then works out to  $5.30/lb.  The cheapest anhydrous form I’m finding is about $19.00/lb with shipping.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 28, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I will need to go back to find your numbers.  I was looking at a 5lb bag of the pentahydrate form on Amazon for 16.99 including shipping.  By the calculations I did above, it would yield to 3.2 lbs of sodium thiosulfate, which then works out to  $5.30/lb.  The cheapest anhydrous form I’m finding is about $19.00/lb with shipping.


I bought mine from ebay and it was $11 for a pound.


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Nov 28, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I bought mine from ebay and it was $11 for a pound.


And I also saw where someone had earlier posted 3 pounds of anhydrous on Amazon for around $15 with free shipping.  Looks like the cost could be as low as $5-$5.50/lb if the pentahydrate form works works as well as the anhydrous form, or that low priced anhydrous is legit. I imagine that making chemicals anhydrous and ensuring purity adds cost.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 28, 2020)

For CP soap, I don't think I'd start with just the thiosulfate. The results from the original article in post #1, as well as @glendam's experiment/video (also posted way back in this thread) were done with thiosulfate. While they did lessen the discoloration, they did not eliminate it.

In contrast, Todd's experiments with the mix of the two resulted in complete elimination of the browning (to date), even with high vanillin fragrances. And he has stated his belief that it's probably the metabisulfite that's doing the work for CP soap, whereas the thiosulfate is probably for M&P soap. His instincts and research have been great so far. 

If I were going to start with just one of the two, my money would be on the metabisulfite.  Ebay lists it as low as $6.25/lb with free shipping. Amazon has it as low as $4.42/lb with free shipping for Prime members.  But the reality is that Todd will probably finish his experiments and report his results, long before I finish up the bottles that I bought right as this thread started.

Todd, we should all be chipping in to send you a Christmas ______ (honey-baked ham, case of beer, bottle of fine wine, box of Neuhaus chocolates, fill-in-your-choice-of-treats-here).


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Nov 28, 2020)

Oh, good distinction on the MP versus CP soap factor.  I only read through the entire thread once and I’m sure I missed a lot of important details.  Do the manufacturers make the mix of thiosulphate and metabisulfite so they have all bases covered for MP, CP, lotions, etc?


----------



## dibbles (Nov 28, 2020)

WSP has three different VCS products, one for M&P, one for CP and one for lotions. I took a quick look and didn’t see anything listed about the ingredients, so it would take someone more knowledgeable than me to uncover what might be in them. I also have read that their version doesn’t work very well, but I can’t remember where. Seems to me I’ve read it several times though.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 28, 2020)

I've also read that WSP's version doesn't work well. Back when I was on FB, many soapers were saying how the stabilizer only worked for a certain amount of time, and then the browning was inevitable at some point during the cure.

My guess is that the VCS works differently in different soap recipes. With endless combinations of oils, micas, fragrances, and other additives, it's not a simple task to come up with something that will work for everyone.


----------



## Sunibee (Nov 29, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I'm glad you found the thread and are going to give it a try.
> 
> I would never patent the formula because first, I wasn't the only one involved with making it, 2nd it is meant for the soaping community and the satisfaction of helping others is its own reward. Everyone can pay me by sending pictures of their successes.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing so generously.Very interesting  will chk


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 29, 2020)

AliOop said:


> For CP soap, I don't think I'd start with just the thiosulfate. The results from the original article in post #1, as well as @glendam's experiment/video (also posted way back in this thread) were done with thiosulfate. While they did lessen the discoloration, they did not eliminate it.
> 
> In contrast, Todd's experiments with the mix of the two resulted in complete elimination of the browning (to date), even with high vanillin fragrances. And he has stated his belief that it's probably the metabisulfite that's doing the work for CP soap, whereas the thiosulfate is probably for M&P soap. His instincts and research have been great so far.
> 
> ...


The patent that I read included a lot of testing of different combinations of metabisulfate and thiosulfate in differing amounts. It even included different chemicals in conjunction with metabisulfate but the final winner in the tests was the recipe that I shared. 

My tests are mirroring the same results that were achieved in the very thorough patent testing process. 

I do wish someone who is using the VCS from WSP would chime in because I would like to know what there's smells like but if I am not mistaken, someone did find the percentages used in the crafters choice VCS. 

I don't need a gift, just send me pictures of your soap with the ZCS results.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 29, 2020)

dibbles said:


> WSP has three different VCS products, one for M&P, one for CP and one for lotions.


I didn’t realize that vanillin would discolor lotions! I thought it was the lye or the saponification process that causing the browning reaction (the Maillard reaction of the soaping world, lol). This is good to know, thank you!


----------



## dibbles (Nov 29, 2020)

AliOop said:


> I didn’t realize that vanillin would discolor lotions! I thought it was the lye or the saponification process that causing the browning reaction (the Maillard reaction of the soaping world, lol). This is good to know, thank you!


I gave lotion making a try - it’s not for me. But I have bought and scented a premade base for years and it will discolor. Maybe not as readily or as dark as CP, but that might be due to a lower usage rate. M&P will discolor as well and in that case the lye and oils have already saponified.


----------



## glendam (Nov 29, 2020)

@TheGecko this is the soap I experimented with, in which it seems the ROE is helping, which I added to the oils before adding the lye solution.  The fragrance is chocolate mint from Nurture soap (discontinued).
I put thiosulfate in a 1:1 rate to half of the soap and poured it in the mold. The other half I did not add thiosulfate and expected it to get dark brown. I attempted a drop swirl with it, without realizing that in a tall and skinny mold it was likely to look like deformed buttocks.
it has been 3 weeks and the top half has yet to discolor the way it did the first time I used the fragrance, which is linked below.





How this fragrance did last year, after 2 weeks:

Chocolate mint


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 29, 2020)

AliOop said:


> For CP soap, I don't think I'd start with just the thiosulfate. The results from the original article in post #1, as well as @glendam's experiment/video (also posted way back in this thread) were done with thiosulfate. While they did lessen the discoloration, they did not eliminate it.
> 
> In contrast, Todd's experiments with the mix of the two resulted in complete elimination of the browning (to date), even with high vanillin fragrances. And he has stated his belief that it's probably the metabisulfite that's doing the work for CP soap, whereas the thiosulfate is probably for M&P soap. His instincts and research have been great so far.
> 
> ...


I really don't need a gift and I appreciate the thought. If you really want to get something, then give me the gift of calling it ZCS, I really think that it deserves a spot in the abbreviations permathread and we can all take credit for it.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 29, 2020)

@glendam you crack me up!  I think your soap looks great, as usual.

Just to be clear, are you saying that you believe the ROE is helping to prevent discoloration from vanillin? I must have missed that part of the discussion. So, did you add the ROE to master-batched oils, or only to specific ones before mixing with the rest of your oils?


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 29, 2020)

glendam said:


> @TheGecko this is the soap I experimented with, in which it seems the ROE is helping, which I added to the oils before adding the lye solution.  The fragrance is chocolate mint from Nurture soap (discontinued).
> I put thiosulfate in a 1:1 rate to half of the soap and poured it in the mold. The other half I did not add thiosulfate and expected it to get dark brown. I attempted a drop swirl with it, without realizing that in a tall and skinny mold it was likely to look like deformed buttocks.
> it has been 3 weeks and the top half has yet to discolor the way it did the first time I used the fragrance, which is linked below.
> View attachment 52015
> ...


First, I love the soap and I love your stamp. How long do you wait before stamping your soap. 

What is the vanillin content of your FO? What amount of ROE did you use with the thiosulfate. It would be great if the ROE adds something to the formula but it would be a very expensive one.


----------



## Saponificarian (Nov 29, 2020)

I have been using Sodium Metabisulphate by itself and it’s working for me at half of my FO amount.

I have found that keeping my lotion slightly acidic keeps Vanillin FO discoloration to a minimum. I use BB Cocoa Butter Cashmere FO in lotion and it doesn’t turn but we usually use up a batch of lotion within 3 months. I havent kept the lotion for over 3 months to see if it does eventually turn brown.


----------



## earlene (Nov 29, 2020)

My plans to start testing got delayed, but I think I have my testing plan pretty much set, Todd.  I'll send you the way I set it up via PM (conversations) and hope to hear back from you if it sounds anything like a reasonable process.

BTW, how did your surgery go?  Mine was postponed due to an anomaly in my EKG, and it looks like it won't happen until Februrary at the earliest now.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 29, 2020)

Saponificarian said:


> I have been using Sodium Metabisulphate by itself and it’s working for me at half of my FO amount.
> 
> I have found that keeping my lotion slightly acidic keeps Vanillin FO discoloration to a minimum. I use BB Cocoa Butter Cashmere FO in lotion and it doesn’t turn but we usually use up a batch of lotion within 3 months. I havent kept the lotion for over 3 months to see if it does eventually turn brown.


Thanks for the update. I also personally believe that it does not need to be used at a 1:1 ratio. Depending on how dark and what color the FO will turn the soap, I will adjust the amount of ZCS or VCS that I use. If it will only get a little yellow, I will use just 50% of the ZCS to the FO.


----------



## JoyfulSudz (Nov 29, 2020)

If I were to add the ZCS to my soap, I assume I would need to add these components to my ingredients list.  I'm concerned people might be put off by the sound of these strange sounding chemicals in their soap.  I've already had to reassure a number of people about such scary words as sodium hydroxide and sodium lactate.  Could you just list it as Color Stabilizer?


----------



## AliOop (Nov 29, 2020)

@Saponificarian thats great info! Have you tried this in CP soap, as well?


----------



## AliOop (Nov 29, 2020)

JoyfulSudz said:


> If I were to add the ZCS to my soap, I assume I would need to add these components to my ingredients list.  I'm concerned people might be put off by the sound of these strange sounding chemicals in their soap.  I've already had to reassure a number of people about such scary words as sodium hydroxide and sodium lactate.  Could you just list it as Color Stabilizer?


According to INCI definitions, you can list it as fragrance.


----------



## Saponificarian (Nov 29, 2020)

AliOop said:


> @Saponificarian thats great info! Have you tried this in CP soap, as well?



I make CP. The FOs my 8 year old uses for Melt and Pour don’t discolor so I haven’t tested it in Melt and Pour.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 29, 2020)

Saponificarian said:


> I make CP. The FOs my 8 year old uses for Melt and Pour don’t discolor so I haven’t tested it in Melt and Pour.


Thank you! I just wasn't sure from your post whether you had only tried the metabisulfite in lotion, or also in your CP soap. Based on your experience, and Todd's experiments, I'm going to try the metabisulfite when I run out of the other VCS.


----------



## glendam (Nov 29, 2020)

@AliOop 
Thank you! I added the ROE to the master batched oils.  So either the thiosulfate has migrated to the half that didn’t have it (top half) or the ROE is helping prevent the oxidation.  I can see some discolored ghost spots, like purplish brown but they are hard to see.
I stamped it bc the bum effect was frustrating to me! 
@Todd Ziegler I stamped this one the day after cutting it.  Mainly as a distraction for the failed drop swirl.   It was a 40% lye solution and thr soap was pretty solid, I have been experimenting making the stamps and stamping lately, so I have tried them with soaps as old as 10 days and the day of cutting (do not recommend it). 10 day old soaps have worked If the soaps were soft to begin with (swirly designs).  But on others, day three can be too late. (If fragrance accelerated, and used low water)

I added the ROE at 0.05% rate of all the oils, before adding the lye, so pretty low %.  I wouldn’t use higher because I have read here it will work the opposite (promote oxidation rather than prevent it).
The vanillin content is supposed to be 0.5% yet it has produced dark brown soap before.  Darker than milk chocolate, more like dark chocolate.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 30, 2020)

glendam said:


> @AliOop
> Thank you! I added the ROE to the master batched oils.  So either the thiosulfate has migrated to the half that didn’t have it (top half) or the ROE is helping prevent the oxidation.  I can see some discolored ghost spots, like purplish brown but they are hard to see.
> I stamped it bc the bum effect was frustrating to me!
> @Todd Ziegler I stamped this one the day after cutting it.  Mainly as a distraction for the failed drop swirl.   It was a 40% lye solution and thr soap was pretty solid, I have been experimenting making the stamps and stamping lately, so I have tried them with soaps as old as 10 days and the day of cutting (do not recommend it). 10 day old soaps have worked If the soaps were soft to begin with (swirly designs).  But on others, day three can be too late. (If fragrance accelerated, and used low water)
> ...


0.5% is a low amount of vanillin and I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot of different ingredients that can cause the soap to discolor other than vanillin. That is why it is important that you buy from a retailer who tests their FO's and gives you an accurate description of what will happen when you use the FO. 

I use ROE in the same way and amount that you do but if the FO caused any discoloring, I used some amount of ZCS in the soap. So I don't have any soap to look at and compare results.


----------



## dibbles (Nov 30, 2020)

Wait...now I'm confused. Todd, did you add ROE to all your soap batches in addition to the ZCS? Do you add ROE to your oils when you open the bottles, or only to your soap batches?


----------



## glendam (Nov 30, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> 0.5% is a low amount of vanillin and I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot of different ingredients that can cause the soap to discolor other than vanillin. That is why it is important that you buy from a retailer who tests their FO's and gives you an accurate description of what will happen when you use the FO.


Agreed.  Nurture soap did show a picture of their soap being dark brown, so I was prepared for it.  You are right that other ingredients can cause discoloration, I have noticed that too with the fragrance Sweater Weather from Bescented, which has 0% vanillin yet it turns brown.  The first time I used the Nurture Soap fo that discolors, it did so within two weeks.  The picture above with the stamp was taken at the 3 week mark, which is why I am wondering if it is the ROE helping out.


----------



## AliOop (Nov 30, 2020)

@dibbles I am curious about that, as well. I don't normally add ROE since I don't have issues with DOS. Although now that I am starting to add RBO, maybe I will. 

In any event, I'd hate to learn that the success of ZCS was dependent upon also using ROE.  Hopefully Glenda and Todd can suss that out for us.


----------



## glendam (Nov 30, 2020)

@AliOop Next time I master batch oils I will set apart a portion before adding the ROE to test.  I only started using ROE consistently in the last couple of months, so I am curious to see what happens too.  I made the chocolate mint soap that I linked earlier in Feb of this year, and it did not have ROE.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Nov 30, 2020)

dibbles said:


> Wait...now I'm confused. Todd, did you add ROE to all your soap batches in addition to the ZCS? Do you add ROE to your oils when you open the bottles, or only to your soap batches?


I add the ROE when I first open the bottle. But I only add ROE to my safflower oil at a rate 0.5% of the bottle weight, which is 0.04ozs. and not to anything else, plus I only use 10%-15% safflower to any of my recipes. So I really doubt that the ROE in my recipes is doing anything. Some of the recipes that I have tested with the ZCS have no ROE in them.


----------



## dibbles (Nov 30, 2020)

@glendam and @Todd Ziegler thank you - this clears things up in my mind better. I will add ROE to my oils when opened if they are in a large jug. The smaller ones I don't as I can use them up quickly. I haven't ever added ROE to my soap batter in addition to that, so I was wondering if you do one or the other, or both.


----------



## Sheedy18 (Dec 1, 2020)

Saponificarian said:


> I have been using Sodium Metabisulphate by itself and it’s working for me at half of my FO amount.
> 
> I have found that keeping my lotion slightly acidic keeps Vanillin FO discoloration to a minimum. I use BB Cocoa Butter Cashmere FO in lotion and it doesn’t turn but we usually use up a batch of lotion within 3 months. I havent kept the lotion for over 3 months to see if it does eventually turn brown.



Hi @Saponificarian I've just got my Sodium Metabisulphate in, may I ask how you mix it into the batch? Do you dissolve in water first? I saw earlier you said you add it to vinegar do you think I could add it to the lye solution?


----------



## Saponificarian (Dec 1, 2020)

Sheedy18 said:


> Hi @Saponificarian I've just got my Sodium Metabisulphate in, may I ask how you mix it into the batch? Do you dissolve in water first? I saw earlier you said you add it to vinegar do you think I could add it to the lye solution?



I would advise you mix into water or vinegar. Please use a mask when working with the Sodium Metabisulphate. I add the mixture to my FO and then add to my oils or my batch. I have never added it directly to the lye water.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Dec 5, 2020)

Sheedy18 said:


> Hi @Saponificarian I've just got my Sodium Metabisulphate in, may I ask how you mix it into the batch? Do you dissolve in water first? I saw earlier you said you add it to vinegar do you think I could add it to the lye solution?


I would suggest that you make a master batch of your metabisulfite and then use it and add it to your oils.


----------



## earlene (Dec 8, 2020)

Thank you to *AliOop* for posting the article in your OP & starting this thread, and thank you to *glendam* for posting your video and findings in your experiments.  And thank you *Todd* for your generous sharing all of your experiments and findings. And thank you to *Jersey Girl* for finding & posting that information about the aka's for the chemicals in question & the ingredient list for the WSP VS. And to everyone else who contributed additional information along the way. It all helped me to work out what information to look for in developing a plan to do my own testing that I hope will complement what you all have already done, as well as to satisfy my own curiosity on this topic.



earlene said:


> My plans to start testing got delayed, but I think I have my testing plan pretty much set, Todd.  I'll send you the way I set it up via PM (conversations) and hope to hear back from you if it sounds anything like a reasonable process.



My trials for DIY Vanillin Color Stabilizing formula variants will start after my order from WSP comes, and quite possibly after Christmas because we are closing on a house for my son next week and I will be helping him move cross-country immediately thereafter.  

After consulting with *Todd* & *DeeAnna*, I have a plan designed for doing 9 variants of formulas using these two chemicals (sodium metabisulfite; sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate) at different strengths, singly & in combination, plus a control and a comparison against BCN's VS.

The two factors that delayed my getting started was designing & fine-tuning a written plan and data collection methods & criteria, as well as the fact that other life events are ongoing. The latest delay has been that I decided to go with a fragrance oil that was readily available to most soap makers rather than the more limited availability of a made-to-order FO that most folks cannot, nor may never be able to get in the future. The FO I have chosen has a vanillin content of 9% and I bought enough of it to repeat this DIY Vanillin Color Stabilizer project a few times over. In other words, I ordered enough to get this done without running out. I hope I don't come to hate the FO! I will be using only one FO in my test project, as well as the same soap formula and no added colorants to make analysis easier use color saturation data.

I will not be repeating all of Todd's testing, but will be doing some other formulations in the process, as well as conducting periodic and long-term data collection.  So it will be awhile before I report back with possibly conclusive results. I intend to follow this project through over the course of a year with follow up data collection for another year thereafter.  However, I will post periodic progress & interim reports, perhaps on a monthly basis to start, with a 6-month interim report, first end-of-year report and follow-up in the second year for long-term results. Providing long-term data will hopefully show which of the 9 formulas provides longer term color inhibition.

Type of soap I will make for this project:  Cold Process soap only.  
What will not be included in this study: any other form of soap or B&B product; any possible ancillary contributing factors to color change inhibition (such as what any other chemicals or soap ingredients may contribute.)


In the meantime, folks, *please remember to wear appropriate PPE when you work with these chemicals.*

In my research to prepare for this project and in my written plan, I included not only PPE requirements for said chemicals, but also disposal requirements in the case that disposal is ever necessary, so you may want to take a look at that section on both MSD Sheets if you are going to be working with these chemicals yourself.

Below are 4 links that indicate PPE required for working with these two chemicals.  If you are in the UK, you will need the EU equivalent (or better) for the masks/PPE.  For our purposes, full skin protection is recommended, including boots, and N95 mask at minimum, and a well ventilated area and handling powder in such a way that dust is not bandied about.  In fact, it is suggested that for high dust situations, dust particles be container under a ventilation hood.  And caution must be taken to prevent animals and other humans from exposure.



			https://tinyurl.com/y3jacpzy
		



			https://tinyurl.com/y6tmt6gc
		



			https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/639110O/3m-respirator-selection-guide.pdf
		



			https://www.nipissingu.ca/sites/default/files/2018-06/Disposable%20Face%20Mask%20Information.pdf
		


For also-known-as or synonyms or other names for these chemicals, should you need them here are some links:





						sodium disulfite (CHEBI:114786)
					

Chemical Entities of Biological Interest (ChEBI) is a freely available dictionary of molecular entities focused on 'small' chemical compounds.



					www.ebi.ac.uk
				








						Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate | DrugBank Online
					






					go.drugbank.com
				











						Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate
					

Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate | H10Na2O8S2 | CID 61475 - structure, chemical names, physical and chemical properties, classification, patents, literature, biological activities, safety/hazards/toxicity information, supplier lists, and more.




					pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 26, 2020)

*Heres what im understanding:*

3oz metabisulfate
3oz thiosulfate
10oz water

then use 1:1: for f.O 
Ex: I use 1oz FO per batch so would I use 1oz of above solution?

Can this solution be stored in fridge for later use?
Does that 1oz solution NEED to be calculated into my water weight even though it would go in post cook?


----------



## AliOop (Dec 26, 2020)

Correct on the measurements and usage rate.

From what I read, it does not need to be stored in the fridge, but it should be very, very airtight to prevent evaporation and recrystallization. Todd said that he puts a cork in the bottle before putting the lid on. 

Several people have stated that they don't adjust their water weight, but I believe most of them were doing CP. For HP, I would think it would affect your fluidity when adding post-cook. Please give it a try and let us know!


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 28, 2020)

Melysg25 said:


> *Heres what im understanding:*
> 
> 3oz metabisulfate
> 3oz thiosulfate
> ...


@Todd Ziegler  can you read the above and tell me if I'm on the right track?


----------



## AliOop (Dec 28, 2020)

Melysg25 said:


> @Todd Ziegler  can you read the above and tell me if I'm on the right track?


Not Todd, but I can say yup, those are the correct ratios for making it and using it.


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 28, 2020)

Thanks a bunch ! @AliOop


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 29, 2020)

Melysg25 said:


> Thanks a bunch ! @AliOop


An update on diy VANILLA STABILIZER SOLUTION:

I totally botched the label I made so I will reupload it, with correct label, another time. I don't know how to delete a post so I'm explaining the change.


----------



## dibbles (Dec 29, 2020)

Melysg25 said:


> An update on diy VANILLA STABILIZER SOLUTION:
> 
> I've included a pic to show what I did and how I store my solution. Hope this helps someone else.


I haven't tried this, but I am following the thread. Your label shows *3 g* each of metabisulfite and thiosulfate to 10 oz of water. It is my understanding that you would use *3 ounces* of each to 10 oz of water. Correct me if I am misreading your label, or if I am wrong about the ratios.


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 29, 2020)

dibbles said:


> I haven't tried this, but I am following the thread. Your label shows *3 g* each of metabisulfite and thiosulfate to 10 oz of water. It is my understanding that you would use *3 ounces* of each to 10 oz of water. Correct me if I am misreading your label, or if I am wrong about the ratios.


I'm so sorry my error.
I took down the pictures and will reupload with correct labels. Very little sleep last night. Yes 3oz of each and 10oz of water.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Dec 30, 2020)

Melysg25 said:


> @Todd Ziegler  can you read the above and tell me if I'm on the right track?


Sorry for falling behind but @AliOop got it right. 





dibbles said:


> I haven't tried this, but I am following the thread. Your label shows *3 g* each of metabisulfite and thiosulfate to 10 oz of water. It is my understanding that you would use *3 ounces* of each to 10 oz of water. Correct me if I am misreading your label, or if I am wrong about the ratios.


Yes you are correct. If you warm the water to 100°F it will help everything dissolve faster.

It is a weird formula and I am sure adjustments will be made after some long term trials.

I just wanted to remind everyone that making the storage bottles air tight for VCS and ZCS is important to keep the solution from crystalizing.

I use a rubber stopper but you can use a natural cork too.



AliOop said:


> Correct on the measurements and usage rate.
> 
> From what I read, it does not need to be stored in the fridge, but it should be very, very airtight to prevent evaporation and recrystallization. Todd said that he puts a cork in the bottle before putting the lid on.
> 
> Several people have stated that they don't adjust their water weight, but I believe most of them were doing CP. For HP, I would think it would affect your fluidity when adding post-cook. Please give it a try and let us know!


Correct. Thanks @AliOop for answering some questions. I got really busy and couldn't find to check in.


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 30, 2020)

Melysg25 said:


> I'm so sorry my error.
> I took down the pictures and will reupload with correct labels. Very little sleep last night. Yes 3oz of each and 10oz of water.


This is pictures with correct ratios according to ziegler's recipe

3 oz metabisulfate
3 oz thiosulfate
10 oz distilled water

Warmed the water to mix all the crystals ( a must unless you want to wait hours for it to mix)
And poured into amber glass bottle with wax paper under the lid to DECREASE evaporation.


----------



## rdc1978 (Dec 30, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> @Todd Ziegler
> 
> First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.
> 
> ...



Bless your soul for telling me what ROE is.  I was tempted to think you all were using tiny fish eggs to prevent discoloration.  JK


----------



## glendam (Dec 30, 2020)

Anyone have any ideas of which preservative would be best for the solution?  I am thinking optiphen.  Last time I mixed the thiosulfate in water and did not use it up, it started smelling bad (same thing happened to my EDTA solution).  I know the high alkalinity of the soap will kill anything that might be living there, but I would rather keep it fresh in the meantime.


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 30, 2020)

glendam said:


> Anyone have any ideas of which preservative would be best for the solution?  I am thinking optiphen.  Last time I mixed the thiosulfate in water and did not use it up, it started smelling bad (same thing happened to my EDTA solution).  I know the high alkalinity of the soap will kill anything that might be living there, but I would rather keep it fresh in the meantime.


Great question! I figured it wouldn't need a preservative because of lye interaction but I rather not introduce mold. Perhaps anyone out there knows what preservatives the commercial VSB have in them?


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Dec 31, 2020)

glendam said:


> Anyone have any ideas of which preservative would be best for the solution?  I am thinking optiphen.  Last time I mixed the thiosulfate in water and did not use it up, it started smelling bad (same thing happened to my EDTA solution).  I know the high alkalinity of the soap will kill anything that might be living there, but I would rather keep it fresh in the meantime.


I don't know of any retailers who use a preservative in the VCS that contains metabisulfate. Are you using just the thiosulfate? 

Metabisulfate is used as a preservative in the wine industry, so you should not need a preservative if you are using both metabisulfate and thiosulfate.

If you are using just thiosulfate ,I would have no idea for a preservative.


----------



## glendam (Dec 31, 2020)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I don't know of any retailers who use a preservative in the VCS that contains metabisulfate. Are you using just the thiosulfate?
> 
> Metabisulfate is used as a preservative in the wine industry, so you should not need a preservative if you are using both metabisulfate and thiosulfate.
> 
> If you are using just thiosulfate ,I would have no idea for a preservative.


Thank you!  Good to know.


----------



## linne1gi (Dec 31, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> @Todd Ziegler
> 
> First of all...thank you for your willingness to experiment and an even bigger thank you for sharing your experiments with us. May I suggest patenting the Ziegler Vanilla Color Stabilizer...I would be happy to donate to the cost.
> 
> ...


For antioxidants in soap.  I cannot find the precise article I took this from, but:  Per 1000 grams of soap (about 32 ounces): 1 gram ROE (rosemary oleoresin) and 5 grams EDTA.  For 500 grams of soap (about 16 ounces) use 0.5 grams of ROE and 2.5 grams of EDTA.


----------



## glendam (Jan 1, 2021)

@Todd Ziegler Have you noticed any weird smell in the soap when using the metabisulfate and thiosulfate solution? 
When I cut the soap today it smelled like a perm or some hair chemical.  I have read in this forum that some fragrances can do that and it eventually fades, but I am just curious in the meantime.  When I was making the soap the fragrance and stabilizer together smelled good.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 1, 2021)

glendam said:


> @Todd Ziegler Have you noticed any weird smell in the soap when using the metabisulfate and thiosulfate solution?
> When I cut the soap today it smelled like a perm or some hair chemical.  I have read in this forum that some fragrances can do that and it eventually fades, but I am just curious in the meantime.  When I was making the soap the fragrance and stabilizer together smelled good.


I have not encountered that at all. When I first tried the VCS I bought, I thought it would leave a smell like that but I have not encountered it in either the VCS or ZCS.


----------



## glendam (Jan 1, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I have not encountered that at all. When I first tried the VCS I bought, I thought it would leave a smell like that but I have not encountered it in either the VCS or ZCS.


Good to know.  Thank you! Today that chemical smell is definitely more faint, and the lavender can be smelled (it was a blend of about 5 fragrances).


----------



## earlene (Jan 1, 2021)

Todd et al, I am home again and will start on my written plan for the DIY VS testing at various strengths.  After prepping this afternoon, I will begin in the morning.  I had wanted to start today as it is the 1st, but with expecting Hubby home with a carload of stuff to unpack, I figured I'd best be available to help with the unpacking instead.  The 2nd is a good enough date for the first soaps.  I hope to get all done in one or two days, then will follow up periodically per the plan with observations.  I am using only one FO and no added colors, but 3 strengths for each chemical and 3 strengths for the combo, plus Two controls consisting of one soap without any VS and One using a commercially obtainable VS for comparison, which is the BCN VS, as I have it on hand.

So today: prep.


----------



## Melysg25 (Jan 1, 2021)

This is my acorn harvest (nature's garden) beer soap. Nature's garden says this fragrance colors to a dark chocolate. And this is a beer soap. And I used annatto (though not enough) for top portion and it turned out this color. I'd say your ziegler stabilizer is working quite well. 

@Todd Ziegler


----------



## violets2217 (Jan 2, 2021)

glendam said:


> When I cut the soap today it smelled like a perm or some hair chemical.


Did you figure out why your soap melted this way? Asking for a friend... 
seriously though, I just cut a soap and bam!  pow!   Nasty perm smell! I did not use anything odd in my soap... like stabilizer and such. Just an oatmeal soap with some white and pink kaolin clay. Not even a fragrance oil! Plus it turned green. So odd... but on a positive note it’s not the ZSC!


----------



## glendam (Jan 2, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> Did you figure out why your soap melted this way? Asking for a friend...
> seriously though, I just cut a soap and bam!  pow!   Nasty perm smell! I did not use anything odd in my soap... like stabilizer and such. Just an oatmeal soap with some white and pink kaolin clay. Not even a fragrance oil! Plus it turned green. So odd... but on a positive note it’s not the ZSC!


I just went to smell the bars to make sure, the smell is still there but it’s faint.  I can smell the other fragrances a lot better so I feel good about them now.  The only thing I can think of is that I cut them while they were still at a a high alkaline Level, and that the fragrance blend didn’t like that ph. I used yellow mica and when I cut it, there were sections of bright yellow and some of pale yellow.  Now they are mostly pale yellow throughout. 
I had used that blend before except I had used rose instead of lavender for the floral note.
That is so odd about your soap with no fragrance.  Did you use any milk instead of water?  And it turned green! Have you used those clays before (same bag and all)?


----------



## violets2217 (Jan 2, 2021)

glendam said:


> Did you use any milk instead of water? And it turned green! Have you used those clays before (same bag and all)?


I did use coconut milk and it was a new bag of white kaolin clay... This has been the weirdest soap I’ve made! I thought it was gonna be the nicest creamy soap with pretty pink swirls... and I got this!


The chemical smell is fading already though!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 2, 2021)

Melysg25 said:


> This is my acorn harvest (nature's garden) beer soap. Nature's garden says this fragrance colors to a dark chocolate. And this is a beer soap. And I used annatto (though not enough) for top portion and it turned out this color. I'd say your ziegler stabilizer is working quite well.
> 
> @Todd Ziegler


That's great but the "Z" stands for "zigali" I just wanted to mention that because I was not the only one involved in this project.

Back to your soap, did you use beer out of the can or the freezed dried beer powder from WSP?



violets2217 said:


> I did use coconut milk and it was a new bag of white kaolin clay... This has been the weirdest soap I’ve made! I thought it was gonna be the nicest creamy soap with pretty pink swirls... and I got this!
> View attachment 52901
> 
> The chemical smell is fading already though!


I spoke to a friend of mine who is a gem, mineral and rock collector about the different colored clays and if they are authentic. He said that those clays more often than not, come from places where they clay is not pure. It's often mixed with different colors and other contaminates that have to be removed in order to get the color they want and the only thing different about the kaolin clays are the mineral contaminations that gives it the color. He said that even the best mining companies can't remove every contaminate and so you may have had a clay that wasn't as pure as you thought. The contaminate in the clay could have reacted with another ingredient in your soap and caused the color change. There are many minerals that can cause a green color.


----------



## violets2217 (Jan 2, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I spoke to a friend of mine who is a gem, mineral and rock collector about the different colored clays and if they are authentic. He said that those clays more often than not, come from places where they clay is not pure. It's often mixed with different colors and other contaminates that have to be removed in order to get the color they want and the only thing different about the kaolin clays are the mineral contaminations that gives it the color. He said that even the best mining companies can't remove every contaminate and so you may have had a clay that wasn't as pure as you thought. The contaminate in the clay could have reacted with another ingredient in your soap and caused the color change. There are many minerals that can cause a green color.


Awesome! I love using my clays! But now it will be a surprise every time I use it! Who knows what color I’ll get! It’s not an ugly green... I guess! 
Thanks for the info! And congrats on your successful ZCS creation. This post has been very intriguing. And both you and @AliOop have been sooo helpful!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 2, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> Awesome! I love using my clays! But now it will be a surprise every time I use it! Who knows what color I’ll get! It’s not an ugly green... I guess!
> Thanks for the info! And congrats on your successful ZCS creation. This post has been very intriguing. And both you and @AliOop have been sooo helpful!


Thank you for the kind words. 

If you are buying your clay from a reputable company then you should not have to many surprises on the color of the finished soap. Just keep in mind that clays are alkaline and when mixed with an acidic ingredient compared to the alkalinity of clay, the outcome might not be what you expected. 

Your particular incident is not unusual but it is also not a completely normal outcome either. Good luck.


----------



## Melysg25 (Jan 2, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> That's great but the "Z" stands for "zigali" I just wanted to mention that because I was not the only one involved in this project.
> 
> Back to your soap, did you use beer out of the can or the freezed dried beer powder from WSP?


I guess I should start calling it ZCS then  whoever collaborated, y'all stumbled upon something good. I used a yuengling lager that was open and sat flat in fridge for 2-3 days. I live very near Pottsville, the home of yuengling lager so I was inspired. Lol. @Todd Ziegler


----------



## glendam (Jan 3, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> I did use coconut milk and it was a new bag of white kaolin clay... This has been the weirdest soap I’ve made! I thought it was gonna be the nicest creamy soap with pretty pink swirls... and I got this!
> View attachment 52901
> 
> The chemical smell is fading already though!


That is really odd! I am glad the feedback may pinpoint to the clay.  I have heard that sometimes milk in soap gives the ammonia smell, but usually only if it burns, if you added it frozen and kept it cool it shouldn’t have done that


----------



## Vicki C (Jan 3, 2021)

earlene said:


> Todd et al, I am home again and will start on my written plan for the DIY VS testing at various strengths.  After prepping this afternoon, I will begin in the morning.  I had wanted to start today as it is the 1st, but with expecting Hubby home with a carload of stuff to unpack, I figured I'd best be available to help with the unpacking instead.  The 2nd is a good enough date for the first soaps.  I hope to get all done in one or two days, then will follow up periodically per the plan with observations.  I am using only one FO and no added colors, but 3 strengths for each chemical and 3 strengths for the combo, plus Two controls consisting of one soap without any VS and One using a commercially obtainable VS for comparison, which is the BCN VS, as I have it on hand.
> 
> So today: prep.


I’ve been following this thread and am looking forward to hearing about and seeing your results. I just got my sodium metabisulfite yesterday and am waiting for the thiosulfate. I’m planning to try each separately and together but I don’t have any commercial VCS to compare it to.


----------



## Jeboz (Jan 3, 2021)

It's taken me a while but I finally have some pics to show.
I made the stabiliser in November and made this blue soap on the 19th November. Used both chemicals as per Todd's recipe.
First pic is the day made, second is the  12th December and the last is today - 4th January. Other than lighting issues which I tried to keep consistent, the soap is the same colour today as the day I made it! The vanillin content is 3% and the fragrance is chocolate mint.
I also include some (scary) bunny soaps I made yesterday to follow up on. This fragrance is Sugar Fairy (type) with 1% vanillin.


----------



## Vicki C (Jan 3, 2021)

These are CP? How were you able to cut the same day? They are lovely btw. And the stabilizer looks like a winner!


----------



## Jeboz (Jan 3, 2021)

Sorry - the day after they were made, I meant.


----------



## Melysg25 (Jan 4, 2021)

Jeboz said:


> It's taken me a while but I finally have some pics to show.
> I made the stabiliser in November and made this blue soap on the 19th November. Used both chemicals as per Todd's recipe.
> First pic is the day made, second is the  12th December and the last is today - 4th January. Other than lighting issues which I tried to keep consistent, the soap is the same colour today as the day I made it! The vanillin content is 3% and the fragrance is chocolate mint.
> I also include some (scary) bunny soaps I made yesterday to follow up on. This fragrance is Sugar Fairy (type) with 1% vanillin.
> ...


It seems to be working quite well for you too!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 4, 2021)

Vicki C said:


> I’ve been following this thread and am looking forward to hearing about and seeing your results. I just got my sodium metabisulfite yesterday and am waiting for the thiosulfate. I’m planning to try each separately and together but I don’t have any commercial VCS to compare it to.


I think there is enough people participating in the tests and using both the VCS & ZCS, that we have that covered. But having more people trying the new ZCS is a good idea. If you want to compare it with something, look and see if your FO supplier has a picture of the FO's discoloring or a description of the final discoloring. That is a good way to check your results. I know that natures garden provides a picture and description of the discoloring. 





Jeboz said:


> It's taken me a while but I finally have some pics to show.
> I made the stabiliser in November and made this blue soap on the 19th November. Used both chemicals as per Todd's recipe.
> First pic is the day made, second is the  12th December and the last is today - 4th January. Other than lighting issues which I tried to keep consistent, the soap is the same colour today as the day I made it! The vanillin content is 3% and the fragrance is chocolate mint.
> I also include some (scary) bunny soaps I made yesterday to follow up on. This fragrance is Sugar Fairy (type) with 1% vanillin.
> ...



The soap looks good and I like the bunny soap.


----------



## Vicki C (Jan 4, 2021)

Will do. ZCS here we go!


----------



## Vicki C (Jan 5, 2021)

Jeboz said:


> Sorry - the day after they were made, I meant.


Oh got it - wasn’t meaning to challenge I just thought maybe you knew a secret!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 8, 2021)

Vicki C said:


> Oh got it - wasn’t meaning to challenge I just thought maybe you knew a secret!


Some of my soaps can be cut the same day that I poured them. It really depends on the ingredients and if you gell your soap. 

I bring my soap temperature up to about 150°F and I use sodium lactate and depending on the behavior of my FO I can cut some batches the same day. It is usually 14 - 18 hours later and if I pour the soap around 9am.

I force gell my soap with heating pads and towels wrapped around the soap mold. I have developed a recipe that allows me to get the soap up to 160°F without it going volcano, braining or separating.

However the FO plays a critical role and I have eliminated any FO that generates heat, quick acceleration or any other undesirable trait.

Having said that, it does not always mean that I can cut it the same day.


----------



## Vicki C (Jan 8, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Some of my soaps can be cut the same day that I poured them. It really depends on the ingredients and if you gell your soap.
> 
> I bring my soap temperature up to about 150°F and I use sodium lactate and depending on the behavior of my FO I can cut some batches the same day. It is usually 14 - 18 hours later and if I pour the soap around 9am.
> 
> ...


Good intel thank you! Hoping to try my ZCS today (day off)  but got waylaid when my car didn’t pass inspection. Sigh. Always something never nothing.


----------



## AliOop (Jan 8, 2021)

Vicki C said:


> Good intel thank you! Hoping to try my ZCS today (day off)  but got waylaid when my car didn’t pass inspection. Sigh. Always something never nothing.


My mom and I like to tease each other, so my expression is, "If it's not one thing, it's your mother."


----------



## Vicki C (Jan 8, 2021)

AliOop said:


> My mom and I like to tease each other, so my expression is, "If it's not one thing, it's your mother."


Hahaha my sister and I say the exact same thing. (Love you mom. )


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 9, 2021)

Vicki C said:


> Good intel thank you! Hoping to try my ZCS today (day off)  but got waylaid when my car didn’t pass inspection. Sigh. Always something never nothing.


Sorry to hear that. Inspections are a pain. Indiana got rid of them in the 70's


----------



## Jersey Girl (Jan 9, 2021)

Wanted to share that today I ordered 10 lbs of sodium metabisulfite from Duda Diesel for $21.30 with free shipping. I think it’s going to last me a while!  The 5 lb package was back ordered so I said...what the heck!


----------



## ccsslb (Jan 13, 2021)

I've poured through this thread and made copious notes. Thank you to everyone who is so willing to share your findings. It really says a lot about this community!

I'm wondering though, unless I just missed it, how did the .5:1 ZCS:FO trials turn out? Was it as effective as the 1:1 ratio or would it just be easier to stick with the 1:1?


----------



## Jersey Girl (Jan 18, 2021)

Ok...so I just made a soap and used some of the homemade VS and I’m experiencing something I never have before.  I’ve had soaps heat up and start to crack, but this was starting to volcano. I’m thinking that using goat milk is the issue. I used 50/50 concentrae GM and aloe juice. Also used 2 T of ground oatmeal and @IrishLass yummy OMH FO combo. As soon as I added the FO/ZCS to the batter, it turned a bright yellow and it soon started looking curdled. I got it in the mold and put it under a cardboard box. I checked on it after a few minutes and it was at 127 with the heat gun. 5 minutes later it was at 158 so I immediately took it out to my back room which is unheated.  On the surface the temp dropped pretty quick but then it started getting really dark in the middle and I could actually see it starting to bubble and ooze clear liquid. Slightly panicking I put it outside and surrounded by ice. It’s still got a very dark area in a portion of the middle. I don’t know what happened but I’m going to have to keep a very close eye on it. I’m thinking I can say goodbye to any fragrance if it burned off!  Has anyone had this mixture heat up their soap like this? 





So I discovered the dark spot is fragrance oil that has leaked out and is sitting there just under the surface.  I’m hoping it will reabsorb. Things have thankfully cooled down and I brought it back inside.  That was freaky!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 23, 2021)

ccsslb said:


> I've poured through this thread and made copious notes. Thank you to everyone who is so willing to share your findings. It really says a lot about this community!
> 
> I'm wondering though, unless I just missed it, how did the .5:1 ZCS:FO trials turn out? Was it as effective as the 1:1 ratio or would it just be easier to stick with the 1:1?


I personally have not did a 0.5:1 ZCS with a vanillin content, brown discoloring FO. However I have used that ratio for FO's that have no vanillin but cause a slight yellowing of the soap and it works well at that ratio. It is a personal risk when you use less than 1:1 and I do it based off of a lot of personal experience and being very familiar with the FO. So when in doubt always go with 1:1.

Here is an updated picture of one of the original ZCS test soaps. It has a vanillin content of 9% and a dark brown discoloring. It is almost 3 months old and the yellowing you see is because of the camera and not the soap. So far so good.


----------



## Sudds (Jan 25, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I personally have not did a 0.5:1 ZCS with a vanillin content, brown discoloring FO. However I have used that ratio for FO's that have no vanillin but cause a slight yellowing of the soap and it works well at that ratio. It is a personal risk when you use less than 1:1 and I do it based off of a lot of personal experience and being very familiar with the FO. So when in doubt always go with 1:1.


Hi Todd, I am new to this forum and everyone has pointed me and others in your direction in regards to using a Vanilla Stabilizer solution in our cp soaps to keep them from turning brown when using vanilla or vanillin.  I used to make cp goat's milk soap, almost 8 y.o.  I have decided to go back to making it and it has changed dramatically in those years, to say the least! I started researching how to make a homemade vanilla stabilizer when I saw the price, stupid expensive in mho. I learned that a 25% sodium thiosulphate 75% distilled water was the best way to go.  Using 1 part vanilla stabilizer to 2 parts fragrance for fragrances that contain less than 10% vanillin & 1 part v stabilizer to 1 part fragrance for fragrances that contain more than 10% vanillin. I see in this forum that folks are using sodium metabisulfite as well do you have any thoughts on these two different products? I am just basically curious.  Also, I looked on the Acronyms page and couldn't find what ZCS stands for, would you please enlighten me, I would appreciate it!


----------



## AliOop (Jan 25, 2021)

Hi @Sudds I am not Todd, but I can say that "ZCS" is our forum's acronym for the homemade vanilla stabilizer, which we affectionately dubbed "Zigali's Color Stabilizer." You can search "Zigali" if you want to read more about why we named it that. 

Todd did a lot of reading of the patents for the commercial VCS, and then conducted experiments. Based on what he's seen so far, the combination of metabisulfite and thiosulfate seems to work best. He also worked out a formula for how much to use, based on the vanillin content of the fragrance. Here is a separate summary thread that he wrote up.


----------



## AliOop (Jan 25, 2021)

Jersey Girl said:


> Ok...so I just made a soap and used some of the homemade VS and I’m experiencing something I never have before.  I’ve had soaps heat up and start to crack, but this was starting to volcano. I’m thinking that using goat milk is the issue. I used 50/50 concentrae GM and aloe juice. Also used 2 T of ground oatmeal and @IrishLass yummy OMH FO combo. As soon as I added the FO/ZCS to the batter, it turned a bright yellow and it soon started looking curdled. I got it in the mold and put it under a cardboard box. I checked on it after a few minutes and it was at 127 with the heat gun. 5 minutes later it was at 158 so I immediately took it out to my back room which is unheated.  On the surface the temp dropped pretty quick but then it started getting really dark in the middle and I could actually see it starting to bubble and ooze clear liquid. Slightly panicking I put it outside and surrounded by ice. It’s still got a very dark area in a portion of the middle. I don’t know what happened but I’m going to have to keep a very close eye on it. I’m thinking I can say goodbye to any fragrance if it burned off!  Has anyone had this mixture heat up their soap like this?
> 
> So I discovered the dark spot is fragrance oil that has leaked out and is sitting there just under the surface.  I’m hoping it will reabsorb. Things have thankfully cooled down and I brought it back inside.  That was freaky!


Jersey Girl, how did this soap turn out after unfolding and cutting? Have you had any further adventures with ZCS?


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 25, 2021)

Sudds said:


> Hi Todd, I am new to this forum and everyone has pointed me and others in your direction in regards to using a Vanilla Stabilizer solution in our cp soaps to keep them from turning brown when using vanilla or vanillin.  I used to make cp goat's milk soap, almost 8 y.o.  I have decided to go back to making it and it has changed dramatically in those years, to say the least! I started researching how to make a homemade vanilla stabilizer when I saw the price, stupid expensive in mho. I learned that a 25% sodium thiosulphate 75% distilled water was the best way to go.  Using 1 part vanilla stabilizer to 2 parts fragrance for fragrances that contain less than 10% vanillin & 1 part v stabilizer to 1 part fragrance for fragrances that contain more than 10% vanillin. I see in this forum that folks are using sodium metabisulfite as well do you have any thoughts on these two different products? I am just basically curious.  Also, I looked on the Acronyms page and couldn't find what ZCS stands for, would you please enlighten me, I would appreciate it!


I can't really add any more to what @AliOop has said without a really long post. I will just reiterate that the combination of sodium metabisulfate and Sodium thiosulfate together will give you the best value and coverage.

If you are making a lot of soap with vanillin in the FO, this will save you a lot of money.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Jan 25, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Jersey Girl, how did this soap turn out after unfolding and cutting? Have you had any further adventures with ZCS?


Hi!  I had 2 failed overheated loaves.  My first ever fails!  Second loaf I even used half as much ZCS and it still overheated badly. I threw them both out.  I made a third loaf and didn’t use the ZCS and it was fine. It had to be the goat milk.  I’ve used the fo before with no issues. So be warned...it doesn’t play well with milk!


----------



## AliOop (Jan 25, 2021)

Oh no, I use GM in almost all of my soaps.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Jan 25, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Oh no, I use GM in almost all of my soaps.


Have you made one withe GM and ZCS yet?  If you try one I would suggest putting it right in the freezer. I’m too afraid to try again. I love GM soaps too.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Jan 25, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Oh no, I use GM in almost all of my soaps.


The only other thing I can think of is that one of the fragrance oils i  used to mix the oatmeal milk and honey blend is milk sugar kisses from Daystar. I used @IrishLass  wonderful blend. That FO has phthalate in it.  I wonder if that reacted somehow. When I mixed the ZCS and FO together with a mini mixer to get them to blend it became a milky color and thickened up within a couple minutes to a slurry consistency but it didnt feel hot. Just got thick and white. It was weird


----------



## AliOop (Jan 25, 2021)

@Jersey Girl Wow, it does sound like a reaction with that specific FO. 

I still haven't made any ZCS yet, because I'd just purchased several bottles of VCS from Bittercreek before this whole conversation  (or is it a movement? ) got started. Plus, I haven't soaped much since before the holidays, when we were down with COVID. Still catching up with life now. Guess I need to start soaping and using some vanillin FOs so I can move on to trying ZCS!


----------



## Sudds (Jan 26, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Hi @Sudds I am not Todd, but I can say that "ZCS" is our forum's acronym for the homemade vanilla stabilizer, which we affectionately dubbed "Zigali's Color Stabilizer." You can search "Zigali" if you want to read more about why we named it that.
> 
> Todd did a lot of reading of the patents for the commercial VCS, and then conducted experiments. Based on what he's seen so far, the combination of metabisulfite and thiosulfate seems to work best. He also worked out a formula for how much to use, based on the vanillin content of the fragrance. Here is a separate summary thread that he wrote up.


I think I read everything he posted and I so appreciate the work he did. I also went back again and looked at what I had previously read and the information I was reading was for HP soap!  Duh, I feel really stupid. I must apologize to Todd as I do realize how much effort he put into his research! I hope I have not stepped on too many toes, I didn't mean to.


----------



## Sudds (Jan 26, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I can't really add any more to what @AliOop has said without a really long post. I will just reiterate that the combination of sodium metabisulfate and Sodium thiosulfate together will give you the best value and coverage.
> 
> If you are making a lot of soap with vanillin in the FO, this will save you a lot of money.


Hi Todd, Please let me apologize for reading the information I quoted to you incorrectly, it was for HP soap, not cold pour. I am so sorry, and please accept my sincere apology. I read every post you wrote on the stabilizer as I was appalled at the price for one thing and was super curious about how you went about finding all the info you did! I really appreciate the time you spent doing all the research for the rest of us that use and will be using your vanilla stabilizer. I have both products coming today along with airtight bottles!  I love vanilla and will be using it a lot in the future, so thank you for saving me a lot of money so I can buy more oils and butters, etc.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 26, 2021)

Sudds said:


> Hi Todd, Please let me apologize for reading the information I quoted to you incorrectly, it was for HP soap, not cold pour. I am so sorry, and please accept my sincere apology. I read every post you wrote on the stabilizer as I was appalled at the price for one thing and was super curious about how you went about finding all the info you did! I really appreciate the time you spent doing all the research for the rest of us that use and will be using your vanilla stabilizer. I have both products coming today along with airtight bottles!  I love vanilla and will be using it a lot in the future, so thank you for saving me a lot of money so I can buy more oils and butters, etc.


Absolutely no need to apologize. The thread got very long and confusing. We started a second thread with the intention of boiling it down to just the pertinent information but that got out of control too lol. If you have a specific question about the ZCS or VCS please ask. 

Here's the formula that I use, just in case you need it. 
10 ounces of distilled water 
3 ozs - sodium metabisulfate 
3 ozs - sodium thiosulfate 
Heat the water up to speed up the dissolving. Then I dissolve the thiosulfate first because it is the easiest to dissolve and then I dissolve the metabisulfate. 
I add just a little bit more water before I heat it up in order to compensate for water that is lost through steam. I add about 0.05 more.

Please share your results with us. Also you can PM me if you have any questions. It helps cut down on the size of the thread.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Jan 26, 2021)

AliOop said:


> @Jersey Girl Wow, it does sound like a reaction with that specific FO.
> 
> I still haven't made any ZCS yet, because I'd just purchased several bottles of VCS from Bittercreek before this whole conversation  (or is it a movement? ) got started. Plus, I haven't soaped much since before the holidays, when we were down with COVID. Still catching up with life now. Guess I need to start soaping and using some vanillin FOs so I can move on to trying ZCS!


Im happy to hear you are feeling better!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 26, 2021)

Jersey Girl said:


> Have you made one withe GM and ZCS yet?  If you try one I would suggest putting it right in the freezer. I’m too afraid to try again. I love GM soaps too.


I have made soap with goat milk powder and the ZCS and didn't have any problems. So it could be the liquid milk that is the problem, maybe.

If you mix VCS or ZCS with your FO it will turn a milky color and sometimes thicken. However if you let it set for a while, it will separate back out. I no longer mix the 2 before adding it to the rest of the batch. My best guess is that when it's mixed with the oil, lye and water it gets emulsified and that is why it still works in the soap. Don't forget that when you mix the ZCS and FO you are mixing oil with water.

On the overheating issue that you are having. I really think it is the FO in combination with the liquid goat milk that is causing the overheating. I have only experienced overheating once and the FO that I used caused the overheating. I used it without the ZCS and still overheated. I have used both VCS and ZCS with 25 different FO's and with goat milk powder and only experienced the overheating that one time.

Have you tried leaving the liquid goat milk out or use the powdered instead? It might give you a better idea of what is causing it.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Jan 26, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I have made soap with goat milk powder and the ZCS and didn't have any problems. So it could be the liquid milk that is the problem, maybe.
> 
> If you mix VCS or ZCS with your FO it will turn a milky color and sometimes thicken. However if you let it set for a while, it will separate back out. I no longer mix the 2 before adding it to the rest of the batch. My best guess is that when it's mixed with the oil, lye and water it gets emulsified and that is why it still works in the soap. Don't forget that when you mix the ZCS and FO you are mixing oil with water.
> 
> ...



Actually, the second batch I made I used powdered GM and Aloe Juice instead of the evaporated and half the amount of ZCS and it still it overheated.  The only thing I can think of it it could be the FO in combination with the ZCS because when I made the third batch with all evaporated GM but no stabilizer it was fine. Which FO did you use that overheated?  Because I used a blend, of two different scents I’m not sure which one was the culprit!  It was about a 70/30 blend of milk sugar kisses to OMH.  I really want this to work but I’m afraid to try again!  Im using the pentahydrate form of the thiosulfate if you think that could make a difference.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 26, 2021)

Jersey Girl said:


> Actually, the second batch I made I used powdered GM and Aloe Juice instead of the evaporated and half the amount of ZCS and it still it overheated.  The only thing I can think of it it could be the FO in combination with the ZCS because when I made the third batch with all evaporated GM but no stabilizer it was fine. Which FO did you use that overheated?  Because I used a blend, of two different scents I’m not sure which one was the culprit!  It was about a 70/30 blend of milk sugar kisses to OMH.  I really want this to work but I’m afraid to try again!  Im using the pentahydrate form of the thiosulfate if you think that could make a difference.


The FO that overheated was "sugared strawberry" from nurture soap. 

It could be the combination of the FO and the ZCS but this is the first time that I have heard this happening. All things are possible though. But I feel bad because it is my formula that caused your failure. I guess that I am more personally tied to its success than I thought. I keep trying to blame everything else lol. 

It could be the pentahydrate form that is causing it and the only evidence that I have for it, is that you are the only one who I know that is using the pentahydrate form. However I just don't think that it is the pentahydrate form but I will do some research and get back to you.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 26, 2021)

I want to clear something up for everyone. I have had several questions about the correct form of thiosulfate that should be used in the ZCS.

I did a lot of research and made a phone call to a chemist friend of mine. 

Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate is the correct form of thiosulfate to use. It seems that some sellers drop the pentahydrate from the description for some reason and that makes it confusing. 

Sodium thiosulfate is a white powder and has less water in it. Sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate comes in a crystal form.

If the description says sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate or just sodium thiosulfate but it shows a picture of crystals, then you have the right one.

If you have a powder instead of crystal clear form then you have just plain sodium thiosulfate. Sodium thiosulfate can be used but you will have to use less than 3 oz amount because it is a more concentrated form. 

I have never used the sodium thiosulfate powder and I don't know exactly how much you would need to use. So I highly recommend that you get the pentahydrate form. If you have any doubt, ask the seller to confirm which one they are selling.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 27, 2021)

Here is another original soap from the beginning of my tests. It has yellowed a little bit. The picture is not great. The FO is the same as the picture I posted a couple of days ago. The only difference is that I used white mica in the other one and this one is without color except for the blue. I still consider this a success because without the ZCS it would be a very dark brown.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jan 31, 2021)

Well I have found a FO that has partially defeated the VCS & ZCS. I say partially because the FO causes a very dark brown with any stabilizer but I still get a little yellowing around the edges. However the middle is white, which leads me to believe that heat plays a part in the prevention of discoloring. I stop gelling my soap at a minimum of 150°F and this one got up to 155°F, except for the edges which only got about 145°F - 148°F +/-. 

However like I said, this soap could be a very dark brown if not for the ZCS. I have used this FO 4 times, twice with VCS, twice with ZCS and the outcome has been the same. Except for the one I used titanium dioxide in and it didn't have any discoloring that came through. 

I used blue and green mica in this and the picture is not great but I think you will get the gist of it.


----------



## RDak (Feb 1, 2021)

Just saw this thread, THANKS Todd.

So please anyone let me see if I got this right:

Basic recipe: 3 parts ST, 3 parts SM to 10 parts water?

Use this mixture at a 1 to 1 ratio with the amount of fragrance oil (e.g., 1 ounce mixture with 1 ounce FO)?

Can I use this mixture as part of my water when dissolving the lye or only after the soap is made and added at the same time as the FO?  In other words can this mixture be in the lye water and no need to add later on after I cook the soap (I use the double boiler method)?

ETA:  Do I adjust my lye water amount if the mixture can only be used later on when adding fragrance oil?

And, this will ONLY work with vanillin to keep the soap lighter colored?  It will not work to make all soaps lighter colored?

Thanks for any info.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Feb 1, 2021)

RDak said:


> Just saw this thread, THANKS Todd.
> 
> So please anyone let me see if I got this right:
> 
> ...


You have the formula right.

We recommend that you make this ahead of time and store it in an airtight bottle. Then you can just measure out what you need. I do not recommend adding this to your lye/water. Just add it at the same time as you add your FO.

It's possible to do a water discount but you don't need to. I personally don't do it.

The ZCS will help prevent discoloring from FO ingredients of all kinds but that is all.

I don't recommend making this in small batches and you need to make your bottle (glass or plastic) airtight with a rubber stopper or a liner of some kind when you screw on the lid. If it is exposed to air for a few days, it will crystalize and become unusable.

I use it at 1:1 with the FO. If your FO discolors without vanillin, then you can use a little less than 1:1 but only experience with the FO will let you know how much to use. If in doubt always use the 1:1 ratio.


----------



## RDak (Feb 1, 2021)

Thank you Todd!!!

Was kinda hoping I could add it to the lye water but I won't now.


----------



## Zonda (Feb 1, 2021)

Hi,  New to soaping so trying to catch up on the acronyms.  "3 parts ST, 3 parts SM".  What is SM?  Thanks,


----------



## dibbles (Feb 1, 2021)

Zonda said:


> Hi,  New to soaping so trying to catch up on the acronyms.  "3 parts ST, 3 parts SM".  What is SM?  Thanks,


SM = sodium metabisulfite
ST = sodium thiosulfate
I'd go back and read through the thread. There are a lot of little nuggets sprinkled about. And welcome!   

Edit to add: I just remembered that @Todd Ziegler posted a closed thread today that should have all the information in a more concise format. Making homemade VCS, called ZCS

Edit again to add: there is a sticky thread listing acronyms in the beginner's section that might be helpful for you. The Acronym and Abbreviation Definition Thread...


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Feb 2, 2021)

dibbles said:


> SM = sodium metabisulfite
> ST = sodium thiosulfate
> I'd go back and read through the thread. There are a lot of little nuggets sprinkled about. And welcome!
> 
> ...


Thank you @dibbles for posting the sticky link. I was getting ready to do it myself. If anyone thinks that there is something that needs to be changed or added to the sticky link please PM me and I will look it over. I am going to add the acronyms today.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Feb 2, 2021)

I am going to make a suggestion for the acronym for the thiosulfate. I think it should be STP (sodium thiosulfate pentahydrate) because there are 2 forms of it and the pentahydrate is the correct one. The only difference between the two is the amount of water in it and the shape.

Sodium thiosulfate is a powder and it has less water than the sodium thiosulfate PENTAHYDRATE. Also the powder form is more expensive.

I want to get ahead of this because this is the most asked question that I get from people who just discovered the thread.


----------



## RDak (Feb 2, 2021)

Todd:  I just went and looked at your sticky post again and you say the ST has two different forms not SM.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Feb 2, 2021)

RDak said:


> Todd:  I just went and looked at your sticky post again and you say the ST has two different forms not SM.
> 
> Am I missing something?


Yes, we are making the corrections right now. The sodium thiosulfate comes in two forms.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Feb 6, 2021)

The picture shows a soap that I used ZCS in. The only difference being that I force gelled one and not the other. I have seen this happen with some other discoloring FO's that I used with ZCS but after a few days of curing the color disappeared. It leads me to believe that force gelling helps the ZCS work better or faster, not sure which.


----------



## Jeboz (Mar 28, 2021)

Found this on a local (Australian) soaping supplies website and thought it would be interesting. I know there are 2 verions of CS for CP and MP and here it is talking about M&P.

This is an extremely versatile soap base.

Create a vanilla stable base: Add a 25% solution of sodium thiosulfate (or ‘hypo’) at a ratio of 1 part hypo : 2 parts fragrance.


----------



## glendam (Apr 7, 2021)

It’s been 3 months since I made this soap and I wanted to share comparison photos as of last week, since I am getting rid of the last bar of this soap.  I used cinnamon sugar donuts from Lone Star Candle, which has 8.32% of vanillin.  Before adding Todd’s formula (ZCS), I poured a small portion in a round mold.  The rest of the soap turned a light yellow tone (right away when making the soap) and I can’t see any further discoloration, so it’s a win! 
first photo is 1 month later, second is 3 months later (with the discolored disc)


----------



## Sudds (Apr 8, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Yes, we are making the corrections right now. The sodium thiosulfate comes in two forms.





Todd Ziegler said:


> The picture shows a soap that I used ZCS in. The only difference being that I force gelled one and not the other. I have seen this happen with some other discoloring FO's that I used with ZCS but after a few days of curing the color disappeared. It leads me to believe that force gelling helps the ZCS work better or faster, not sure which.


  Thanks, Todd, I forgot to buy the STP so am doing so tonight, for once my procrastination paid off!


----------



## mberge (Apr 10, 2021)

Help!! I was hoping anyone can tell me if Todds ZVS would be safe for solid bubble bath??


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Apr 11, 2021)

@AliOop can you provide some information?


----------



## AliOop (Apr 11, 2021)

That’s a good question! I haven’t made solid bubble bath. Maybe this would be a good question to ask in the bath and body forum since more folks over there will have knowledge about using vanilla stabilizer in a product that has more lasting contact with skin.

ETA: another thought is to send an email to the folks at WSP and BCN, respectively, to ask whether their vanilla stabilizer products can be used for solid bubble bath, and if so, at what usage rate. That will give you at least a benchmark or starting point for how much VCS to use. If you do ask them, please report back here to let us know what they say. Thanks!


----------



## Vicki C (Apr 12, 2021)

A couple weeks ago I finally got around to making ZCS and trying it out with vanilla from WSP and vanilla creme from new directions aromatics. Results are below. I was making small samples and probably didn‘t stir them adequately. Percentages are by weight, % weight fragrance to total weight of oils. i used 1:1 ZCS to fragrance.


----------



## Tara_H (Apr 13, 2021)

Vicki C said:


> A couple weeks ago I finally got around to making ZCS and trying it out with vanilla from WSP and vanilla creme from new directions aromatics. Results are below. I was making small samples and probably didn‘t stir them adequately. Percentages are by weight, % weight fragrance to total weight of oils. i used 1:1 ZCS to fragrance.View attachment 56039


The NDA 4% is actually very cool looking! At least in this photo, with the shine, it looks almost like mahogany.


----------



## Vicki C (Apr 13, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> The NDA 4% is actually very cool looking! At least in this photo, with the shine, it looks almost like mahogany.


Thanks! I had just steamed them to get rid of some soda ash (you can still see some). It is a pretty color, if it is what you’re going for, but it’s nice to have the option to keep it lighter.


----------



## Jersey Girl (Apr 13, 2021)

Vicki C said:


> A couple weeks ago I finally got around to making ZCS and trying it out with vanilla from WSP and vanilla creme from new directions aromatics. Results are below. I was making small samples and probably didn‘t stir them adequately. Percentages are by weight, % weight fragrance to total weight of oils. i used 1:1 ZCS to fragrance.View attachment 56039



wow...what a difference. What ratio of ZCS to FO did you use?


----------



## Vicki C (Apr 13, 2021)

Jersey Girl said:


> wow...what a difference. What ratio of ZCS to FO did you use?


1:1. I know there are different ways to do it, but I just kept it simple.


----------



## dibbles (Jul 5, 2021)

I’m getting low on my VCS  and am wondering if there are any updates on how this is working. Debating whether or not to give it a try. I don’t use VCS very often, so what I have left will likely last me awhile.


----------



## rdc1978 (Jul 5, 2021)

dibbles said:


> I’m getting low on my VCS  and am wondering if there are any updates on how this is working. Debating whether or not to give it a try. I don’t use VCS very often, so what I have left will likely last me awhile.



Hi.  I only used the metasulfate.  I think my oldest bar is a few months old and it hasn't discolored.  So, it worked out pretty well for me.  There is another recent batch I used it on and it came out perfect.   

I can't remember exactly which batch it was or else I'd post pics.


----------



## dibbles (Jul 5, 2021)

@rdc1978 thank you for the update!


----------



## linne1gi (Jul 6, 2021)

dibbles said:


> I’m getting low on my VCS  and am wondering if there are any updates on how this is working. Debating whether or not to give it a try. I don’t use VCS very often, so what I have left will likely last me awhile.


Hi @dibbles, I also only used the Metabisulfate. I made soap about 9-10 months ago using the Oatmeal, Milk and Hiney fragrance oil from Crafters Choice, which has a pretty high vanillin content, and absolutely no discoloration. I have been pretty impressed.


----------



## dibbles (Jul 6, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> Hi @dibbles, I also only used the Metabisulfate. I made soap about 9-10 months ago using the Oatmeal, Milk and Hiney fragrance oil from Crafters Choice, which has a pretty high vanillin content, and absolutely no discoloration. I have been pretty impressed.


That's good to know, thanks! Do you still have a bar, or can you tell me how long you had one that stayed with no discoloration?


----------



## linne1gi (Jul 6, 2021)

dibbles said:


> That's good to know, thanks! Do you still have a bar, or can you tell me how long you had one that stayed with no discoloration?


I’m using one (well actually my husband is using it) in the shower right now, and absolutely no discoloration.


----------



## SoapDaddy70 (Jul 6, 2021)

On an semi-related note, where has @Todd Ziegler been? Have not seen any posts from him in quite awhile.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jul 7, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> On an semi-related note, where has @Todd Ziegler been? Have not seen any posts from him in quite awhile.


I had knee replacement surgery and so I haven't been as active as I was before the surgery. 

Thanks for asking. I was feeling a bit guilty about not keeping up with all the things going on here. 

I am getting ready to make an update on the ZCS experiment. I don't have the pictures ready yet but let me just say that no brown spots still from the original test soap.


----------



## dibbles (Jul 7, 2021)

@Todd Ziegler I hope you are healing well!


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Jul 7, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I had knee replacement surgery and so I haven't been as active as I was before the surgery.
> 
> Thanks for asking. I was feeling a bit guilty about not keeping up with all the things going on here.
> 
> I am getting ready to make an update on the ZCS experiment. I don't have the pictures ready yet but let me just say that no brown spots still from the original test soap.


Hope the knee is healing quickly.  It’s nice to hear from you.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jul 7, 2021)

dibbles said:


> @Todd Ziegler I hope you are healing well!


According to my physical therapist and surgeon, I am about 3-4 weeks ahead of where they expect a patient to be after just 3 weeks. I'm doing everything I can to heal faster but I am still about a month at the minimum, from returning to normal activities. 


Mobjack Bay said:


> Hope the knee is healing quickly.  It’s nice to hear from you.


Thanks. It's healing fast. I was overwhelmed when I saw that someone asked about me here. I miss making soap and cosmetic stuff. Next week I'm going to set up at our county 
4-H fair. It's going to be my "technically" grand opening. Since my soaps are 60% lard, I should do very well. I'm also going to donate 50% of my profits to one of the local 4-H scholarship programs.


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jul 7, 2021)

dibbles said:


> I’m getting low on my VCS  and am wondering if there are any updates on how this is working. Debating whether or not to give it a try. I don’t use VCS very often, so what I have left will likely last me awhile.


I will post some updated pictures of my original test batch as soon as possible. 

I will tell you this. I used a FO that would be a deep, dark brown without the ZCS and I have no discoloration as of yesterday. I think it is at least 6 months old but I will confirm everything when I post the update.


----------



## dibbles (Jul 7, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> Next week I'm going to set up at our county
> 4-H fair. It's going to be my "technically" grand opening.


Best of luck with your grand opening, Todd.


----------



## linne1gi (Jul 7, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> According to my physical therapist and surgeon, I am about 3-4 weeks ahead of where they expect a patient to be after just 3 weeks. I'm doing everything I can to heal faster but I am still about a month at the minimum, from returning to normal activities.
> 
> Thanks. It's healing fast. I was overwhelmed when I saw that someone asked about me here. I miss making soap and cosmetic stuff. Next week I'm going to set up at our county
> 4-H fair. It's going to be my "technically" grand opening. Since my soaps are 60% lard, I should do very well. I'm also going to donate 50% of my profits to one of the local 4-H scholarship programs.


You will love your new knee. I had knee replacement surgery on my left knee 11 years ago, on my right knee 9 years ago.  Both are still doing great.  Good luck on your 4-H fair.


----------



## SoapDaddy70 (Jul 7, 2021)

Todd Ziegler said:


> I had knee replacement surgery and so I haven't been as active as I was before the surgery.
> 
> Thanks for asking. I was feeling a bit guilty about not keeping up with all the things going on here.


No need to feel guilty! Glad you are healing up faster than expected. Good luck with the county fair!!


----------



## Todd Ziegler (Jul 7, 2021)

dibbles said:


> Best of luck with your grand opening, Todd.





linne1gi said:


> You will love your new knee. I had knee replacement surgery on my left knee 11 years ago, on my right knee 9 years ago.  Both are still doing great.  Good luck on your 4-H fair.





SoapDaddy70 said:


> No need to feel guilty! Glad you are healing up faster than expected. Good luck with the county fair!!


Thanks everyone. I'm healing very fast but just not as fast as I want lol. 

I have been selling quite a lot of soap but it has all been word of mouth type sales. The fair will be my first public set up. I choose our county fair because it is where a lot of people will know me and I them. I was a 10 year member and then another 20 years with my children. Plus me and my dad do the livestock and baked goods auction. So I am banking on my notoriety help with sales. I will let everyone know how the fair goes. 

In the mean time, I have adjusted my notification settings because I wasn't getting them. Switched to a new phone and forgot to make sure that the notifications were on. So if you tag me or ask me a question I will know and can respond.


----------



## Quilter99755 (Jul 8, 2021)

Best of luck with your sales. And your new knee. I've had both of mine done and my only gripe is that I have to wear knee pads if I am going to be on my knees very long...like in gardening. But I can take that over the constant pain prior to the operations.
I need to come back to this thread again. I had decided that I was just going to embrace the brown until I did my summer binge soaping to get rid of all my oils that were in the garage. Now I wish I had used the ZCS as 7 batches of brown soap is sort of boring since I used all of my scents with vanilla in them. LOL 
Let us know how things went for your first sales...and how the knee is progressing


----------



## Melysg25 (Jul 29, 2021)

I've made soaps using the zcs stabilizer suggestions. I use metabisulfite and the thiosulphate. Soaps over 6 months old and no discoloration


----------



## josianeg (Oct 21, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I didn’t realize that vanillin would discolor lotions! I thought it was the lye or the saponification process that causing the browning reaction (the Maillard reaction of the soaping world, lol). This is good to know, thank you!



Vanillin can discolour lotion bars?  

Did anyone figure out a stabilizer recipe or found an effective commercial product that works for lotion bars?

I have VS from Bitter Creek North but it's meant for CP soap...  Could it be used successfully in lotion bars!

Other than the FO and micas, my lotion bars contain white beeswax, mango butter, cacao butter and grape seed oil

Did anyone figure out a stabilizer recipe or found an effective commercial product that works for lotion bars?

thanks!


----------



## cherrybleach (Oct 21, 2021)

Thank you for posting this! Have always been wary of vanilla color stabilizer because was so unsure of the toxicity levels for humans/fish/environment.


----------



## AliOop (Oct 21, 2021)

@josianeg I've never tried the stabilizer in lotion bars. If you try it, will you share results, please? Good luck!


----------



## Ech0s (Dec 15, 2021)

I've seen several conflicting posts on Sodium Thiosulfate. Are we to get the anhydrous (Sodium hyposulfite) or the pentahydrate. Is the anhydrous safe to use for CPOP? Thank you in advance!


----------



## ResolvableOwl (Dec 15, 2021)

The degree of hydration doesn't matter for the effect, you can use whatever is easiest to obtain for you. It only makes a difference for weighing:

3 oz Na₂S₂O₃·5 H₂O = 1.9 oz Na₂S₂O₃ (anhydrous)


----------

