# what's the difference between shampoo bars and regular bars?



## MzMolly65 (May 26, 2014)

Title says it all .. anyone know the difference besides ingredients?

How do they act differently and why?


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## seven (May 26, 2014)

shampoo bar is basically a cp/hp soap. unless it's a syndet. that's my basic understanding.


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## Susie (May 26, 2014)

OK, I am not an expert, so when some of the experts speak up, listen to them, not to me.  However, it being a holiday here, it may be a bit, so I will try to help.

Shampoo bars need to do 3 jobs.  They need to clean the scalp and hair, rinse cleanly out, and they need to help to condition the hair.  

Soap with a normal superfat of 5-10% will do all of the above, but probably won't leave any decent amount of conditioning in there.  People everywhere use soap(often syndet) to wash their hair.  

Shampoo bars, OTOH, will usually be more conditioning, with a higher superfat and more attention being paid to the types of oils used for certain properties.  I use at least 20% castor oil, and about 5% jojoba in mine for example.  Though you may very well use 5% jojoba in your bar soaps, I do not.  I also never use over 5% castor in any of my bar soaps.  I also use less coconut oil to decrease the cleansing because I have very dry hair.


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## hmlove1218 (May 26, 2014)

Shampoo bars are formulated to be less cleansing and more conditioning.  For example, in my regular soaps, I use 20% coconut oil, but when I was formulating my shampoo bar, I was advised to keep the coconut oil at 5% or lower so as not to strip my hair.  HTH

Yep, Susie said it better lol.


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## seven (May 26, 2014)

^^^
true, i also lower my coconut to 10% max. i also lower my SF to 2-3%. don't like excess oils on my scalp, at all


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## MzMolly65 (May 26, 2014)

So then should a regular castile work?  

I've been trying my various regular soaps and my hair feels awful; greasy and dirty.  Today I'm going back to shampoo in a bottle until I can figure this out but I didn't want to make a special shampoo bar if my regular soaps should be working.


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## hmlove1218 (May 26, 2014)

You might be suffering from funky hair syndrome lol. How long have you been using your soaps? It can take a few weeks to get all the silicone buildup out of your hair.


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## Ellacho (May 26, 2014)

You might want to add coconut oil and lower the SF in your shampoo bar recipe to reduce the greasiness.  I am not sure if you have oily hair or not, do you? If so, then, the castile soap might not work for you since it has no cleansing value.


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## Obsidian (May 26, 2014)

In theory, castile should work but it always left my hair feeling gunky. You can try it for a couple weeks and see how it does but you will have funky hair syndrome regardless. You can reduce FHS by switching to silicone and sulfate free shampoo for awhile before switching to a bar. Always use a vinegar rinse while adjusting to a bar, it really helps.


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## Susie (May 26, 2014)

Whenever my hair gets washed with the commercial stuff, I just get over the tub and wash my hair 4-5 times with the shampoo bar, or until it no longer feels like FHS.  Might work for you.  You may, as was said above, need to do some ACV rinses.


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## FifthCap (May 26, 2014)

I'm scared to try shampoo bars with my hair. 
It's about 2' long and it has to be conditioned if it's going to be brushed. 

Do "shampoo" bars help the detangle process?


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## MzMolly65 (May 26, 2014)

Ellacho said:


> You might want to add coconut oil and lower the SF in your shampoo bar recipe to reduce the greasiness.  I am not sure if you have oily hair or not, do you? If so, then, the castile soap might not work for you since it has no cleansing value.



No, I usually have dry hair with a lot of static.  Since moving to the Pacific NW where the humidity is much higher I have normal hair but normally use a polish or leave in conditioner to keep my hair from being frizzy with the humidity.

With using just my bars of soap, funky is one word you could call it.  I tried one wash with a carrot/buttermilk bar that was 45% OO, 15% CO, 20% RBO and 20% SB with 5% SF .. so it might be the SB or the buttermilk causing the greasy dirty feeling.

I also tried a 6 month old 100% OO castile but it was 7% SF and maybe that's the problem.

Other than that, it could be just funky hair syndrome (whatever that is).  I'll keep trying if this is a normal part of the process.


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## Seawolfe (May 26, 2014)

FifthCap said:


> I'm scared to try shampoo bars with my hair.
> It's about 2' long and it has to be conditioned if it's going to be brushed.
> Do "shampoo" bars help the detangle process?



I'm the same, I can't deal without conditioner when I use regular shampoo. With bar soaps I definitely need to use a vinegar rinse (1 part ACV and 3 parts water), but then I don't need conditioner. Though I'm the crazy lady who likes my salt bar as a shampoo for my baby fine long hair, so experiment.


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## FlybyStardancer (May 26, 2014)

FifthCap said:


> I'm scared to try shampoo bars with my hair.
> It's about 2' long and it has to be conditioned if it's going to be brushed.
> 
> Do "shampoo" bars help the detangle process?



My hair is long too, and has always been super-tangly. I've found it's a little bit better after getting through a particularly bad case of FHS, but not incredibly so. I might try upping the acidity of my citric acid rinse, though. I've found that the more acidic and cold the rinse is, the less tangly my hair is. I can't use fridge-cold rinse, though, because then it's too big a difference in temp and that causes my face to flush (even though I had ZERO tangles the time I did that).


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## Susie (May 26, 2014)

I still use a commercial conditioner or leave in conditioner.  I would never get a brush or a comb through my hair without something regardless of shampoo. Just find something without silicones(dimethicone, or any other ingredient that ends in the "cone").

My hair is down to my rear, and naturally curly.


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## Candybee (May 27, 2014)

I have been using the shampoo bar recipe from this forum. I love that is has avocado and grapeseed oils in it along with shea, olive, and castor. Its low in cleansing and high in conditioning. It cleans my hair squeaky clean but I still need a conditioner as I have fine, thin, aging hair. I have tried my other soaps and they leave my hair gunky. But the shampoo recipe works perfect. I am currently tweaking it for myself by adding some coconut oil. I want shiny silky hair and I find the recipe lacking in that respect. I just make a batch yesterday with the added coconut oil so I will have to wait to see how I like it.


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## Dahila (Jun 5, 2014)

I posted about the shampoo bar in other thread.  I use the one from this forum and my hair stopped to fall out.  Candybee please post how it works with a bit of CO.


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## CanaDawn (Jun 5, 2014)

citric acid doesn't work as well for me as vinegar, and unpasturised apple cider vinegar works better than other vinegars for me.  Washing with only soap makes for massive "grip" which leads to tangles, and a heavy, greasy feel to my hair.  After washing (applying soap directly to very wet hair and working up a lather on my scalp and any hair I want to actively wash), I always rinse with water and then with diluted ACV.  My hair is mid-back, fine and straight.  It's all a bit trial and error, just like with commercial products.

I also found that using soap instead of shampoo nearly completely stopped my frightening level of shedding within a single wash.


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## LunaSkye (Jun 5, 2014)

I found that the first soap I made was beautiful as a shampoo bar. I used a 25% butter combo that I believed to help detangle  my hair. I have to make it again at some point... with some alterations (replacing grapeseed with something else).

If anyone is going to make a shampoo bar, definitely use less CO than for your regular bars. I used a soap with 20% CO and found it to be too drying. It might work for others, but less is best if your hair needs the conditioning.


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## AnnaO (Jun 5, 2014)

FifthCap said:


> I'm scared to try shampoo bars with my hair.
> It's about 2' long and it has to be conditioned if it's going to be brushed.
> 
> Do "shampoo" bars help the detangle process?



I was scared too, as my hair length is down past my hips, the strands are baby fine, but there is tons of it, so it looks thick. It's slightly wavy.
I was bothered that the individual hairs would dry out and snap off or something.... :Kitten Love:
But they haven't :smile:

My main reason for wanting shampoo bars to work for me is that I am sensitive to something or other in commercial shampoos and conditioners and develop scalp dermatitis when I use them.

I've used the "Genny" recipe shampoo bars for a couple of months now. I wash every 6 days days or so, that's all my scalp seems to need. I didn't require any conditioning at first, but after starting to experience some tangling on washing, the last couple of washes after rinsing out the shampoo bar I have dunked my hair and scalp in the bathroom sink filled with warm water and a little vinegar (-bog standard white vinegar, all we have in our cupboards at the minute..) and then hopped back under the shower to rinse it out.

Afterwards I comb my hair out carefully from the ends up to the roots while my hair is still damp using a wide tooth comb, and leave it to dry naturally.

I've definitely seen less hair left in my comb, and in the plughole, since I started with the shampoo bars. And to have an itch-free, non-flaking, non-cracking, non-bleeding scalp is absolute bliss.


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## Nanditasr (Dec 23, 2017)

I find that shampoo bars/ soaps tend to leave the hair looking dull, even if I use an ACV rinse. Is there anything I can do to make the hair shiny, the way a shampoo leaves it?


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## Obsidian (Dec 23, 2017)

Very few people can use soap on their hair. It's common to have dull, rough hair. It's from the high pH of soap and soap scum.

If your hair doesn't like soap, go back to shampoo before your hair gets damaged. It's much gentler and safer for most people.


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## cmzaha (Dec 23, 2017)

Shampoo bars are syndet bars made with mild detergents. Soap is soap and bad for hair no matter what you do to them. My syndet shampoo bars are very gentle and leave my gray hair feeling very nice no tangles and no conditioner needed. Problem being, they are quite pricey to make but worth it in my opinion. If I decide I need a titch of conditioner I just use a little of my shave lotion which has all the vitamins of a conditioner, since conditioner is basically a lotion. If you love your hair treat it nice and do not use soap on it. Remember hair is dead and cannot actually be fixed once it is damaged. You just can't fix "dead"


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## Traumabrew (Dec 23, 2017)

To my add 2 cents...

From what I have read, lye based soap/shampoo bars are not very good for your hair because they are alkaline and hair prefers to be acidic. So, you dont want to use a lye based product on your hair. However you can make solid shampoo bars without lye.

Here is a link to a great article on this.

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2009/05/road-trip-essentials-solid-shampoo-bar.html


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## Nanditasr (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks, Obsidian, cmzaha and Traumabrew. I think I'll just continue to buy shampoo -- making it seems rather involved!


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## Nite Hawk (Dec 24, 2017)

I would love to learn to make a proper shampoo bar, as  commercial shampoo doesn't "sit well" with my hair. Also, if you do any research on shampoo, many of them have some really nasty ingredients with real nasty long term side effects on the health. Onetime I was using a "dandruff" shampoo. Well believe me, I got the worlds worse case of dandruff AFTER using that shampoo, and it took a long time o get over it..
Shampoo recipes anyone??


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## Obsidian (Dec 24, 2017)

Give this a try, it's been my favorite. If you don't have neem, replace it with avocado and make sure you run it through a lyecalc.

http://www.evernote.com/l/ANi0chvOL_5PbJrp3vjvBfXtC3VrksdJUv4/


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## Nanditasr (Dec 25, 2017)

Nite Hawk said:


> Shampoo recipes anyone??



I did see another thread here, but I'm just not able to find it now. I think it referred to someone named Lindy (?) who said that coconut oil is drying, in response to which the OP said she had eliminated coconut oil completely from her formula. The one listed by Obsidian also has very little coconut oil, so it should be worth a try, if you can get all the ingredients.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 25, 2017)

But Lindy's recipe is still a true soap -- meaning soap made by saponifying fat and lye. Any soap made with lye will have a high pH. This doesn't change whether the recipe has coconut oil or not, so the same concerns about true soap damaging the hair still applies.


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## penelopejane (Dec 25, 2017)

Traumabrew said:


> To my add 2 cents...
> 
> From what I have read, lye based soap/shampoo bars are not very good for your hair because they are alkaline and hair prefers to be acidic. So, you dont want to use a lye based product on your hair. However you can make solid shampoo bars without lye.
> 
> ...



Swift crafty monkey is great but we have an organic shampoo line in Australia made by Sukin (I am sure there is something similar in the US) which doesn't have silicone or some of the other ingredients you might not like to use that are listed on this swift crafty monkey link. 

It is great shampoo that works but I haven't made shampoo so have no idea how it is formulated. 

The complete list of ingredients is:
Water (Aqua), Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Fruit Extract, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Butter, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Glycerin, Polyquaternium-10, Sodium Chloride, Fragrance (Parfum)*, Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate, Citric Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Benzyl Alcohol, Limonene**, Citral**. *Natural Fragrance **Component of Natural Fragrance


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## cmzaha (Dec 25, 2017)

You do not have to add silicone to shampoo bars just omit it and add it to the SCI or liquid surfactant you decide to use. I happen to love the feel of 'cones in lotions and shampoo bars, but it is a personal choice


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## Rune (Dec 26, 2017)

I have washed my hair with regular homemade soap. And I feel my hair benefits from it. I have oily and thin hair (nordic hair). So I get more volume and a drier hair. I have relatively short hair also. But I can definately understand why lye soap is not good for hair in general. I feel my hair becomes like if I have bleached it. That doesn't last long, though, since my oily hair will repair it quite quickly. I have not tried an acidic rince afterwards.

I know different recipes can yield different results and so on. But if I was a woman and had long and dry hair, I think I would never use lye soap. It feels damaging to the hair. It looks matte as well. As a guy with short hair, that doesn't matter very much. I like damaged hair. I just wish it would last longer. Remember, I have nordic hair, and that is the worst hair type in the world. So damaging means less nordic. And that is fine. In the past I used to bleach my hair, and it made wonders! I also tried home perm, just without making curls. That did work too.

The problem with commercial shampoos, is that they always contain all sorts of conditioning agents. It leaves my hair thinner, totally flat and get oily much quicker. I really prefer dish washing detergent. Not that I have used it lately. But that is great for nordic hair. It gets totally stripped from fat, and are not conditioning. But homemade soap is also just as good, or better as dish washing detergent. And that means not good for everybody else than us with thin and hostile nordic hair. But maybe it gets better with an acid rinse. I'm lazy, so I have not tried that.

(It is not everybody with nordic hair that has a 24/7 bad hair day, just sayin'. In my family, it is just me and my aunt. All the others don't have the problems we face. For example, if I have to go to the grocery store and have not showered the same day, I have to dip my head in water. Soaking wet. And then dry it and style it. It is the only thing that helps. I can not just use some gel or hairspray to fix it. No, no, it must be fully soaked, otherwise it will go back to bad bed head in seconds. So the bed head does not slide out at all, while everything else does. And I have to use THE strongest hairsprays to fixate it after styling. The hairspray must be so strong that it feels like if I have a helmet on. Everything else will just slide out in the matter of a few seconds).

Will I make shampoo bars for eventually others than myself? I don't think so. Detergent shampoo are maybe better for most people.


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## Nanditasr (Dec 26, 2017)

Rune said:


> I have washed my hair with regular homemade soap. And I feel my hair benefits from it. I have oily and thin hair (nordic hair). So I get more volume and a drier hair.


 
I totally get what you mean -- soap makes the hair rough and thick, which is why it would help anyone who is trying to combat fine/ thin/ silky hair.



Obsidian said:


> Give this a try, it's been my favorite.


 
Thanks. I assume you mean it's your favourite as a _body_ soap (and not for the hair)?

Avocado oil and shea butter are rare and expensive in India. Perhaps I have to look for other oils with the same SAP values?


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## cmzaha (Dec 26, 2017)

Rune said:


> I have washed my hair with regular homemade soap. And I feel my hair benefits from it. I have oily and thin hair (nordic hair). So I get more volume and a drier hair. I have relatively short hair also. But I can definately understand why lye soap is not good for hair in general. I feel my hair becomes like if I have bleached it. That doesn't last long, though, since my oily hair will repair it quite quickly. I have not tried an acidic rince afterwards.
> 
> I know different recipes can yield different results and so on. But if I was a woman and had long and dry hair, I think I would never use lye soap. It feels damaging to the hair. It looks matte as well. As a guy with short hair, that doesn't matter very much. I like damaged hair. I just wish it would last longer. Remember, I have nordic hair, and that is the worst hair type in the world. So damaging means less nordic. And that is fine. In the past I used to bleach my hair, and it made wonders! I also tried home perm, just without making curls. That did work too.
> 
> ...


You can certainly make shampoo bars without the conditioners. My shampoo bars leave my hair fluffy and I use no conditioners after. I have soft somewhat fine gray hair. Fine hair is even more susceptible to damage and the oil does not fix it only leaves a coating. You can make a shampoo bar with more astringent oils such as grapeseed and leave out any butters or use mango butter which is also a bit astringent. That is the glory of shampoo bars, you tweak them to work for your hair. Dish washing detergent is just a combination of surfactants (detergents). At least if you make your own you can control which detergents you use in your shampoo


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## Obsidian (Dec 26, 2017)

Nanditasr said:


> Thanks. I assume you mean it's your favourite as a _body_ soap (and not for the hair)?
> 
> Avocado oil and shea butter are rare and expensive in India. Perhaps I have to look for other oils with the same SAP values?



No, I mean it my favorite as far as shampoo bars go. While I don't use soap on my hair anymore, that recipe was the best. Its also a great facial soap or for general dry skin.

You could probably replace the avocado with rice bran and the shea with mango butter but I would really try to stick with the avo and shea. Its relatively expensive here too and the neem was very pricy but a 2lb batch of soap will last well over a year if you are just using it on hair.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 26, 2017)

*Shampoo Bars vs Regular Bars*

With all due respect to my colleagues  here that prefer syndets, from my  POV, the choice is similar to HP vs CP -- whatever pops your cork is  the way to go. I'm a big fan of homemade all natural shampoo bars and I'm thankful that SMF wasn't my first soapmaking forum or I never would have had the pleasure of making homemade shampoo bars.

That being said, *the difference between shampoo bars and regular bars is* the time it takes to find the choice of oils/fats/butters you find that work for you and for your hair. There's no "one size fits all". For some, that may be coconut-oil-based (copious lather, highly cleansing); for others, that may be olive-oil-based (negligible lather, gentle cleansing), or any variation you can imagine. Note: I once had a request to make a 100% almond oil (liquid) shampoo for a customer and I was totally blown away by the result. Wonderful, gentle cleansing shampoo that left my hair and scalp totally clean, conditioned, manageable and shiny.

Personally, I've been shampooing for years with every "regular bar" that happens to be in the shower that day, which led to some interesting discoveries. But that first year was challenging. It took time to find the right formula for me. Other CP-ers have the same experience. It's not unusual for a soaper to go back to commercial shampoo for a week or two during that first year before carrying on, as I did. It does take time for your hair to get used to using a non-syndet all natural hard bar.


Nanditasr said:


> I find that shampoo bars/ soaps tend to leave  the hair looking dull, even if I use an ACV rinse. Is there anything I  can do to make the hair shiny, the way a shampoo leaves it?


It's important to rinse thoroughly with increasingly cool water until it's as cold  as you can stand it, to close the hair shaft and remove all the soap  scum. An acid rinse with apple cider vinegar or lemon (and others) helps  remove any residual scum and restores the pH balance to the scalp. A beer rinse adds  volume.

For shine, I like to rub a dot or two of argan oil between my palms, then apply to the ends before working it through the rest of my hair. Note: My SIL is a former hair stylist and the same age as I am (old). When I saw her last April for the first time in more than 10 years, she couldn't believe I didn't color my hair or put a lot of product on it. 



Nite Hawk said:


> I would love to learn to make a proper shampoo  bar, as  commercial shampoo doesn't "sit well" with my hair. Also, if  you do any research on shampoo, many of them have some really nasty  ingredients with real nasty long term side effects on the health.


I agree. I didn't learn to make my own bath and body products to dump more chemicals into my system! :mrgreen: 



Nite Hawk said:


> Shampoo recipes anyone??


My dear hubby loves this hard bar for body soap and shampoo. it leaves his white thin hair clean, manageable, shiny and bright without a trace of yellow. I make liquid shampoo for me but I like, and use this bar also:

32% Water or Aloe Vera Juice ($6.99/gal Walmart)
2% superfat 
62.5% palm oil (or lard)
23.5% olive oil
14% palm kernel oil
HTH :bunny:​


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 27, 2017)

I think comparing it to hp Vs cp isn't overly helpful- with those methods, the end product is almost the same. They might look slightly different, but the biggest difference is in the method itself. As you said, it's whatever pops your cork with cp or hp. 

But many people simply cannot use lye based soap on their hair. It's not really a case of choosing what they prefer to use but rather what does or doesn't damage their hair. 

Some people, like you, do seem to be able to use them and it works well. There are a couple of other members here who can. But not everyone


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## Nite Hawk (Dec 27, 2017)

Some folks with  extremely high iron water end up with yellow /orange colored hair:headbanging: not what is wanted.. and some people that have had their hair turn orange  had light brown ---not white-- hair..
Some people with white hair have tried a bit of blueing to get rid of the yellow, but one has to be careful, cause I have seen white hair with a tinge of blue to it, and I knew they were trying to get rid of the yellow / orange color using laundry blueing...


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## Nite Hawk (Dec 27, 2017)

One of the reasons it would be nice to find an alternative to many commercial shampoos,  is that according to different  web pages out there, some say that some common shampoos have pretty toxic chemicals in them...
I would like to  either see a rebuttal from the shampoo companies if not true, and the web page shut down, or the shampoo companies need to change their ingredients  if what the web pages says_ is_ true..
an interesting read..
https://www.naturalnews.com/003210.html
--and no I have absolutely no monetary  interest ( or other interest )in this web page or others like it out there...


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 28, 2017)

*Chagrin Valley Shampoo Bar FAQ*

Chagrin Valley Shampoo Bar FAQ

You can learn everything about non-syndet, all natural, shampoo bars at Chagrin Valley's excellent web site. Be inspired with the variety of shampoo bars they offer for every type of hair. Find the answers to your questions and what oils/butters/fats may be best for your hair. If I had it to do over again, I would have tried a few of their bars before embarking on formulating my own. I love the idea of a mix of herbal infused oils with essential oils added for fragrance as well as their beneficial properties.

https://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/blog/posts/everything-about-shampoo-bars/

HTH


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## earlene (Dec 28, 2017)

Just my experience, as a woman with longer than waist-length hair which is also white and blonde.  Using a very luxurious lye shampoo bar seemed quite nice for about a month or so.  Then the damage began to show.  My hair became like straw with prolonged use.  I don't even wash my hair frequently.  I only wash it about once or twice a week at the most.  I never use conditioners because they cause my face to get red and blotchy.  I only use water to rinse.  And am not in the least interested in trying new products to rinse the soap out of my hair.  Plain water works best for me.  ACV makes my scalp oily (tried it for a long time, having read it would at first, but would stop after some time; it only made my scalp oily, so it's not for me.)

The dry straw effect of shampoo bars made with NaOH is enough to make me resist them because I have no desire to cut my hair short just so I can use a shampoo bar.

For short hair like my husband's, I don't expect it would cause enough damage to the hair itself that it would matter because he gets it cut frequently.  But for very long hair, the damage is far too great for me to bear.

I doubt I will try making a syndet bar, as I just don't feel motivated to do so, and I doubt I'll get around to trying one, although I wouldn't rule it out sometime in the future.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 28, 2017)

earlene said:


> The dry straw effect of shampoo bars made with NaOH is enough to make me resist them because I have no desire to cut my hair short just so I can use a shampoo bar.
> 
> For short hair like my husband's, I don't expect it would cause enough damage to the hair itself that it would matter because he gets it cut frequently.  But for very long hair, the damage is far too great for me to bear.
> 
> I doubt I will try making a syndet bar, as I just don't feel motivated to do so, and I doubt I'll get around to trying one, although I wouldn't rule it out sometime in the future.


So you use commercial shampoo? I can't help but wonder if a non-syndet natural liquid shampoo like that 100% almond oil LS I made for a customer would work for you? And what about working a conditioning oil through your tresses after shampooing while the hair is still damp?


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## Nanditasr (Dec 28, 2017)

From all the replies here, I've concluded that soaps work for some people, and probably don't work for the majority. I'll keep trying a variety of bars -- in the worst case, they'll still make excellent body soaps!


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## Nanditasr (Dec 28, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Note: I once had a request to make a 100% almond oil (liquid) shampoo for a customer and I was totally blown away by the result. Wonderful, gentle cleansing shampoo that left my hair and scalp totally clean, conditioned, manageable and shiny.
> 
> It's important to rinse thoroughly with increasingly cool water until it's as cold  as you can stand it..
> 
> ...



Thanks. This looks like an easy recipe to try out. I may even use soybean instead of olive oil since it's also very moisturising. The full almond oil bar looks interesting and promising.

A question: Do I need to use_ progressively cooler _water, or can I just use cool water?


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 29, 2017)

Nanditasr said:


> The full almond oil bar looks interesting and promising.


The Almond Oil is not a shampoo bar, it's liquid shampoo.


Nanditasr said:


> A question: Do I need to use_ progressively cooler _water, or can I just use cool water?


LOL Don't be a scaredy cat... I always go as cold as I can stand it. I think it wakes my brain up! :mrgreen:  Seriously, whatever works for you should be fine. It's just really important to rinse long enough to get all the soap scum out. You can also try a beer rinse -- cold from the fridge or half & half with water.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 29, 2017)

KOH soap or NaOH soap ... the specific alkali makes no matter. It's still lye-based soap with the same issue of high pH being damaging to hair.


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## Nanditasr (Dec 29, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> The Almond Oil is not a shampoo bar, it's liquid shampoo.
> 
> LOL Don't be a scaredy cat... I always go as cold as I can stand it. I think it wakes my brain up! :mrgreen:  Seriously, whatever works for you should be fine. It's just really important to rinse long enough to get all the soap scum out. You can also try a beer rinse -- cold from the fridge or half & half with water.



Thanks; I failed to notice that it was a liquid shampoo!
I have no problem washing my hair with cool water. The (flat) beer rinse sounds interesting!


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## Nanditasr (Jan 1, 2018)

Nanditasr said:


> From all the replies here, I've concluded that soaps work for some people, and probably don't work for the majority. I'll keep trying a variety of bars -- in the worst case, they'll still make excellent body soaps!



So I'm still sitting on the fence on soap vs. shampoo. My more recent bars are very moisturising (silky and fantastic on the body, with only 10% CO), and my hair is almost tangle-free after a wash. I still use leave-in vinegar at 1:10 or so, though. My hair still looks duller than when washed with shampoo, but less dull than it did with my earlier soaps. I still use shampoo more often -- twice for every wash with soap. 

I can accept the lower sheen, if I know that soap is decidedly better for the _health_ of my hair (from a scientific standpoint) -- which I'm still confused about. Anyway, knowing that soap is alkaline by nature, I have a couple of naive questions:

1. If I apply a 1:5 vinegar (or lemon juice) solution to my hair for about an hour before a wash, and then wash with soap, will it be better for the health of my hair?

2. Human skin is also acidic, though less acidic than human hair. Considering this, why do we not use a weak vinegar rinse on our bodies?


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## DeeAnna (Jan 1, 2018)

I don't think an acidic pre-wash will make a lot of difference, if any, to skin or hair, but I'm not an expert on skin nor have I tried it.

Hair has a structure of overlapping scales that lift up with high pH. That's why it looks dull and feels dry or harsh when damaged. Skin does not have these scales. Also, hair is non living, so has no ability for repair. Skin is living and can renew itself.

Edit ... There was a big whoop te do some years ago about soap being horrible for the acid mantle of the skin, so we should all use Dove and similar products. Research showed even washing with plain water disturbs the acid mantle of the skin ... but the skin adjusts back to normal fairly quickly.


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## penelopejane (Jan 1, 2018)

Nanditasr said:


> I can accept the lower sheen, if I know that soap is decidedly better for the _health_ of my hair (from a scientific standpoint)



What makes you think soap is better for the health of your hair? 
We have a hairdresser and scientist who both say it is not good for hair and many others who after a few months have had to cut off their hair because of the damage done by soap.


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## Nanditasr (Jan 1, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> What makes you think soap is better for the health of your hair?
> We have a hairdresser and scientist who both say it is not good for hair and many others who after a few months have had to cut off their hair because of the damage done by soap.



No, I don't think or know that it is better; I am ignorant and therefore confused seeing that there are people at either end of the spectrum -- that is why I said "i_f_ I know". What I meant was that if I get to know definitively from some scientists that soap is bad, I won't pursue looking for the "holy grail of soap for hair".

Thanks for mentioning that there is a scientist -- I'll read the whole trail again.


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## penelopejane (Jan 1, 2018)

Nanditasr said:


> No, I don't think or know that it is better; I am ignorant and therefore confused seeing that there are people at either end of the spectrum -- that is why I said "i_f_ I know". What I meant was that if I get to know definitively from some scientists that soap is bad, I won't pursue looking for the "holy grail of soap for hair".
> 
> Thanks for mentioning that there is a scientist -- I'll read the whole trail again.



It seems that people of Asian descent have a hair type that is more resistant to damage caused by lye based soap. Some people say their hair is fine with lye based soap but they are often people with short hair and have it cut regularly. So reading people’s opinions can be confusing I agree.  

There are lots of “natural” shampoos on the chemist’s shelf that are a better solution for your hair in the long run that will allay any fears you have about the ingredients in regular shampoo if that is a concern to you and a reason for seeking an alternative. One thing that does seem to be an effective (for silky shiny hair) additive to shampoo is activated charcoal. Ive been using shampoo and conditioner that has about 1 tsp AC in about 200ml at a guess and it really makes a difference. 

Otherwise just try soap on your hair for a year and prove to yourself if it is beneficial for your type of hair.


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## Nanditasr (Jan 1, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> There are lots of “natural” shampoos on the chemist’s shelf that are a better solution for your hair in the long run that will allay any fears you have about the ingredients in regular shampoo if that is a concern to you and a reason for seeking an alternative. One thing that does seem to be an effective (for silky shiny hair) additive to shampoo is activated charcoal.



Thanks; I'll try activated charcoal.

More than anything else, it's the sense of satisfaction from knowing exactly what has gone into it! After a few more trials, I'll probably end up sticking to my shampoo, or using soap nuts.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 1, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> What makes you think soap is better for the health of your hair?


There's plenty of evidence outside this forum that this is so, at least for some of us. But I'm not here to convert anyone who believes otherwise. Only to be allowed to share what I know from experience that shampoo bars are not only good for my hair, but free of chemicals and much less expensive to make. I wouldn't say they are "better" -- different strokes for different folks, yes?  

Perhaps if there wasn't a "gag order" on the subject of shampoo bars here (that seems to be lifted currently), and if those who had a bad experience had other soapers (as I did) to instruct them on the proper way to switch over to an all natural option vs commercial shampoo, i.e., to rinse thoroughly with cool-cold water and wait out the year of adjustment, then maybe they would be making and using a shampoo bar (or LS) too! One can only imagine.



penelopejane said:


> There are lots of “natural” shampoos on the  chemist’s shelf that are a better solution for your hair ...


Really, PJ? Good to know. I tried a few "natural" shampoos before making my own that went south (stinky) after about 6 months, so that wasn't an option for me. However, Dr. Bronner's Castile is a winner and I currently make a dupe of that -- originally made by request for a wholesale customer.  

If it isn't too much trouble, could you please share some examples?


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## Nanditasr (Jan 1, 2018)

Zany_in_CO said:


> There's plenty of evidence outside this forum that this is so, at least for some of us.



I guess it'll remain like the IOS vs. Android debate, or whether to sugar one's milk or not! Ultimately, we just need to figure out what works for us.


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## penelopejane (Jan 1, 2018)

Nanditasr said:


> Thanks; I'll try activated charcoal.
> 
> More than anything else, it's the sense of satisfaction from knowing exactly what has gone into it! After a few more trials, I'll probably end up sticking to my shampoo, or using soap nuts.



Yes it’s nice to know exactly what you are putting on your skin and hair. 
If you go back to shampoo try some of the real herbal berbal ones - some work better than others. Personally I find hair is so difficult because when I find a solution that results in perfect hair after a few weeks my hair chucks a hissy fit and reverts to disaster. I find I need to alternate between two different shampoos for a while (maybe once a month) then it calms down again. 

Mind you it might also be stress or illness that causes the reversion. So difficult to decypher.



Nanditasr said:


> I guess it'll remain like the IOS vs. Android debate, or whether to sugar one's milk or not! Ultimately, we just need to figure out what works for us.



Or the olive oil debate! 
We are all so different - skin and hair particularly - that it’s impossible to definitively say something works for everyone. 
We all just bumble along trying to find the holy grail for our particular skin and hair and climate and health at any particular time. 

Always good to hear other people’s experiences and opinions and then test for yourself.


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## Nanditasr (Jan 1, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> If you go back to shampoo try some of the real herbal herbal ones - some work better than others...I find I need to alternate between two different shampoos for a while (maybe once a month) then it calms down again.



Being in India, I can't get a real herbal herbal one, but I think soap nuts are decent. I know what you mean about alternating shampoos -- I do that with deodorant, even though I make my own now.



penelopejane said:


> Mind you it might also be stress or illness that causes the reversion. So difficult to decypher.


Even harder when you factor in the change in weather/season.


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## MorpheusPA (Jan 1, 2018)

Honestly, I think shampoo bars are a very individual thing.  I did have some dry hair with a high-coconut bar (I was using the bath bar on my hair as well), but my skin reacted the same way.

Changing over to high lard, high tallow, or high olive bars stopped that problem.

I react well.  My husband reacts well.  My mother has to use a syndet shampoo due to having dyed hair.  

I've seen some people try a shampoo bar and look like a static-ridden poodle.

I don't have any theories on what the personal differences are, other than to say that try it if you want--on a weekend when you can hibernate if it doesn't go well!


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## Nanditasr (Jan 1, 2018)

MorpheusPA said:


> Honestly, I think shampoo bars are a very individual thing.  I did have some dry hair with a high-coconut bar (I was using the bath bar on my hair as well), but my skin reacted the same way.
> 
> Changing over to high lard, high tallow, or high olive bars stopped that problem.



I totally see what you mean. Coconut oil is the go-to oil for any true-blue person from southern India, but I find the oil application drying for both my hair and my skin. Therefore, it's not surprising that I'm not crazy about all-coconut oil soaps -- they really _pull_ at my skin! I find soaps with generous quantities of palm, castor, neem, soybean or sunflower most nourishing.



penelopejane said:


> One thing that does seem to be an effective (for silky shiny hair) additive to shampoo is activated charcoal. Ive been using shampoo and conditioner that has about 1 tsp AC in about 200ml at a guess and it really makes a difference.



Thanks. I'm getting ready to make it, so all the questions pop into my head now! Is that 1 tsp for 200 ml of water in your recipe? Water:lye of 2.83? Any water discounting? Do you add the AC to the lye itself, or at trace?


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## penelopejane (Jan 27, 2018)

Nanditasr said:


> Thanks. I'm getting ready to make it, so all the questions pop into my head now! Is that 1 tsp for 200 ml of water in your recipe? Water:lye of 2.83? Any water discounting? Do you add the AC to the lye itself, or at trace?



I don't make my own shampoo. 
I use commercial shampoo by Husk. 
As you can see from the photo the AC looks like it is added at the end and handblended.  
If I were you I would make a mix of 2 tsp of AC and 2 tsp of Glycerin or water and add 1/8 tsp of this mixture at a time to your mix to try and get the right amount using this photo. 
The one on the bottom is conditioner, the one on the top is shampoo.

Hope this helps


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## Nanditasr (Jan 28, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> I don't make my own shampoo...
> If I were you I would make a mix of 2 tsp of AC and 2 tsp of Glycerin or water and add 1/8 tsp of this mixture at a time...



I failed to notice in your earlier post that it's a shampoo you buy! Thanks; I'll try out your suggestion.


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