# Sugar test: granulated, honey, Karo syrup



## Guest (Aug 30, 2009)

I did a sugar test today 8/30/09 9 AM.
Made soap with no FO -- soap I knew to be very white
-- divided it 4-ways to create 3 bars each (1/2 # batch each)
(this amount of sugar is = to 2 T. ppo):
1. Basic bar - nothing but 2 T. water added
2. Sugar bar - 1 T sugar, 2 T. water added
3. Honey bar - 1 T honey, 2 T water added
4. Karo bar - 1 T white Karo syrup, 2 T water added.

I stirred all the same, in same bowl, same equipment and at 6 hours
this is what they look like. The basic bar with nothing is the same as
the granulated sugar bar.







I think now, I messed up a bit in not WEIGHING the sugars rather than
measuring with a T. The granulated sugar has air spaces and I probably
didn't get as much of it as the other sugars. Oh well...

The bars didn't get real hot, just very slightly warm, not enough to see gel.

It's interesting that granulated sugar hasn't changed color at all.
....and look at the separation in honey! I don't think I'll be
using honey in my soap anymore, I don't care what the lather
test reveals. The basic bar, Karo and sugar bar have absolutely no
separation.

Oh yeah, that was the purpose of this in the first place.
Does sugar in soap increase lather?
I'm going to compare them to the basic bar and see for myself.

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Updates:
8/30/09 7:30 PM None of the bars have separation. The spots went back into the honey bar and it's smooth, dry. I did a very scientific POKE with my finger LOL to test the hardness of the bars:
basic bar hardest
honey and Karo 2nd hardest
gran. sugar the softest -- noticeably softer
I think the Karo darkened a bit, but it still isn't as dark as the honey.
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Update 8/31/09 8 AM - 24 hours
The basic bar and gran. sugar bar are still white.
The Karo bar and the honey bar are the same caramel color.
All 4 bars seem to be the same hardness.
I also wanted to test this recipe as unscented soap, so I add that there is no odor at all, all 4 bars. If you think you're getting honey fragrance from soap, it's your imagination.
10:30 AM Unmolded - no real difference
3 PM Lather test by two people -- with holding results until bars age more
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Update 9/1/09
Colors of the bars same as before.
Best lathering bars: basic and granulated sugar
Worst lathering bars: Karo and Honey
Still early -- I'll keep testing lather from time to time
----------------------------
9/2/09 3 new volunteers for the lather test.
They all chose the basic bar and gran. sugar bar (not being much different) as best lather.
They chose the honey and Karo bars as lathering the least.
Still no difference in odor (none) and bars still same color
I'm wondering if the honey and Karo bars aren't "washing away"
moreso than the basic and granulated sugar bar. The darker bars
"seem the worst for wear" than the white bars. White bars maybe
harder? Something is causing them to last longer, I think -- time will tell.
----------------------------
9/10/08 Up date test by Castorfan alone

I lathered up the test bars today.
Still no odor from all the bars.
All the bars still same color.

I did the test, then chose the best 2 of them lather-wise
and had to lather up 7 times before I made this decision.
I'll get some outside individuals next time I test -- it's close.

Honey - definitely the worst for lather
Karo - better than honey, but 2nd worst of 4
Granulated sugar and basic bar with nothing are VERY close latherwise,
I gave up and had to say that the
basic bar is 2nd for lather
best-lathering bar - granulated sugar.

Like I said, I'll keep these bars and test again later.
It was close, but I suppose there really is something to sugar creating
lather.

Definitely honey INHIBITS lather.
----------------------------


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## Milla (Aug 30, 2009)

Very interesting!  Can't wait to hear about your results.  You could always weigh the sugars now, without using them for soap, just to compare the ratios in weight to see if they are that different.  You could also compare grams of sugar per serving too.  Not sure if one is sweeter than the other.  The Karo is a very pretty color!  Also good to know that the granulated hasn't affected color.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2009)

That is a very cool test Castor fan . The Karo is a nice color.

Kitn


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2009)

Milla said:
			
		

> You could always weigh the sugars now, without using them for soap, just to compare the ratios in weight to see if they are that different.  You could also compare grams of sugar per serving too.



Good idea, thanks. I'm going to do that to see how far off I was with the
granulated sugar.

Yep, Karo makes "butterscotch" color in the mold. Pretty. I'll see if it lasts.


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## donniej (Aug 30, 2009)

Great test!  I'm anxious to read the lather results.  I'm also curious if the color of the karo or honey will fade in the sunlight after a couple weeks.  SUnlight has a curious habit of bleaching soaps.


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## carebear (Aug 30, 2009)

neat!

honey can be hard to incorporate for some reason.


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## heyjude (Aug 30, 2009)

Fun experiment. Can't wait to see how all the bars bubble.   

Jude


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## heartsong (Aug 30, 2009)

*x*

sorry-double post!  :roll:


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## heartsong (Aug 30, 2009)

*Re: x*



			
				heartsong said:
			
		

> holy cow-what a difference!
> 
> i would have guessed ANY sugar would have darkened the soap!
> 
> ...


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## jmk7765 (Aug 30, 2009)

Thank you - Castorfan for doing such a valuable test and generously sharing your results! Are there any other additives, infusions, liquids that we should conduct similar tests with and share results? Ideas anyone? I'd be willing to participate!


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## JenniferSews (Aug 30, 2009)

Thanks so much for sharing, I can't wait to hear about the lather.  I never thought of using karo,  the color is lovely!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

jmk7765 said:
			
		

> Thank you - Castorfan for doing such a valuable test and generously sharing your results! Are there any other additives, infusions, liquids that we should conduct similar tests with and share results? Ideas anyone? I'd be willing to participate!



That would be awesome. The next tests I wanted to do involve salts.
Salts harden the soap, makes it quicker to unmold/slice and I'm
also noticing that it INCREASES LATHER.
too much and soap can be brittle or appear "mat" or coarse --
too little and not enough effect

So the question is: 
What is the best salt for soap to have ultimate manageability,
ultimate lather and soap that is still kind/non-drying to skin?

What is the ideal amount of that salt?
For testing, I recommend a range of about 1/4 t. ppo - 1 t. ppo


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## heartsong (Aug 31, 2009)

*x*

i've seen numerous posts about salt/spa bars, but how hard but crumbly they are if you don't cut them within a particular time frame.

i've also read that savon de marsailles uses seawater for their soaps and they are extremely hard.  duplicating saltwater would use much less salt than the salt/spa bars.

i'm thinking somewhere along the lines of 1/4 to 1/2 tsp per 8 oz of water, maybe?

and if there would be any significant difference in a cold gel vs a hot gel?

i wish to further pursue this line of analysis when i get home.

you've got a great "critical path" analysis going on!


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## Milla (Aug 31, 2009)

I looked up the salinity of seawater and it's 3.5%, which means that for every 1 kg (2.2lbs/35.2 oz) of water you'd need 35 grams (1.23 oz) of dissolved salts.  So for 8 oz of water you'd need 0.28 oz of salt.  For 6 oz of water you'd need 0.21 oz.  I had measured a tsp of table salt in the past and that was about 0.22 oz (which means if you were using 6 oz water ppo and 1 tsp of salt you were probably at salt water conc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_water

If you divide that ratio by 3 for 4 total tests (no salt, 1/3 salinity sea water, 2/3 salinity sea water, full sea water) you'd have these amts per 8 oz of water:

0 oz
0.09 oz (2.6 g)
0.19 oz (5.1 g)
0.28 oz  (7.9 g)

Per 6 oz of water
0
0.07 oz (2 g)
0.14 oz (4 g)
0.21 oz (6 g)

Anyway....just a thought!


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## Pug Mom (Aug 31, 2009)

Karo has vanilla in it, so that makes sense that it darkened a bit.  I love using sugar in my soaps...  Thanks for the test results!!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Great work, Milla -- It also might be interesting to go
above sea-water % to see what happens.


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## Manchy (Aug 31, 2009)

@Milla
i just wanted to add that that could only be a good approximation of sea water. but, what's so great about the sea is that it's also full of other minerals that get extracted in the process of making kitchen salt (table salt, NaCl). i don't think it really has some great(er) affect, though.. (i mean in soap).
uh, i'm so yadda yadda yadda   

btw, am i the only one that actually likes the smell of sugared lye water?  what's wrong with me


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## Milla (Aug 31, 2009)

CastorFan said:
			
		

> Great work, Milla -- It also might be interesting to go
> above sea-water % to see what happens.



absolutely!


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## ewenique (Aug 31, 2009)

Cool experiment!  Keep us posted...


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## jmk7765 (Aug 31, 2009)

Milla said:
			
		

> I looked up the salinity of seawater and it's 3.5%, which means that for every 1 kg (2.2lbs/35.2 oz) of water you'd need 35 grams (1.23 oz) of dissolved salts.  So for 8 oz of water you'd need 0.28 oz of salt.  For 6 oz of water you'd need 0.21 oz.  I had measured a tsp of table salt in the past and that was about 0.22 oz (which means if you were using 6 oz water ppo and 1 tsp of salt you were probably at salt water conc.).
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_water
> 
> ...



I'd be glad to carry out this experiment with salt. Are we using regular table salt, sea salt or something else - I don't have any other salt on hand.
Also, Castorfan, any recommendations on what to use in the soap recipe? I've got tallow, palm, palm kernel, coconut, sunflower, soybean shortening, canola, olive oil, grapeseed, hemp, cocoa butter, shea, lanolin, jojoba, almond oil, rosemary oil, vitamin E, beeswax, evening primrose and tons of EOs. That's all I can remember without getting up. Currently out of Mango. 
Milla, some of what you posted is 'Greek' to me, but I can follow a % or amounts for either 1 or 2 lb. test batches.
Input anyone?    This is fun!


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## artisan soaps (Aug 31, 2009)

..


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

Go for it, Janice! You surely don't need my permission to experiment.
We all benefit from what you learn, so go for it. I'm excited to hear
that you have an experimental nature and are kind in offering to help the 
group project!

For the salt, I was going to use regular table salt with iodine (we can always use sea salt, etc after we know the right amount).
I was thinking of making a 2# batch again, any recipe I know
works well (white preferably to judge color changes) with no FO (to screw
up results or create surprises)

Divide the soap into 4 equal sections

I was thinking of using:
no salt in one
1/2 t. salt in next
3/4 t. salt in next
1 t. salt in next

To evaluate the differences in the bar as far as:
How fast the bars hardened
What the bars look like
How well they lather
Skin feel after use
..just any tiny variances in them that can be noted.

I also want to do it with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)
to compare to the salt test

...........and borax to compare to salt and soda tests!

So much to learn!


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2009)

artisan soaps said:
			
		

> By 'granulated sugar' do you mean like white refined /castor?



Castor is what I call "powdered sugar" isn't it? With anti-caking ingredients?

What I used is regular, granulated sugar...like what you would bake sugar cookies with.

I should have had a 5th bowl, and I could have thrown some castor in there. LOL


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## artisan soaps (Aug 31, 2009)

..


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

It's still early, and I'll continue to monitor lather tests,
but it looks like the honey and Karo are interfering with lather,
rather than creating more lather -- or maybe they need more age-time.

The basic bar and granulated sugar lather best and are about the same lather-wise.  Maybe I didn't add enough granulated sugar to hinder? Time will tell...maybe.


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## jmk7765 (Sep 1, 2009)

Can't soap today, my darling, little Avatar is with me and we're watching Sesame Street. The word of the day is 'Scrumptous' brought to us by the letter 'R' and the number '7'. Whew, don't know how much more baby TV I can take. 

I will be doing the salt test tomorrow!


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## Sunkawakan (Sep 1, 2009)

Hi, all.  I'm a newbie here and have done only a few (over 20, less than 30) batches of cp soap and just did my 1st 2 batches of hp soap this week (turned out great!) so please please forgive the stupid questions.

First, what does "ppo" mean?  and second, when do you add the salt/sugar? 

I'm looking for something to increase my lather and cleansing as I make a very very simple lard and olive oil or lard and canola oil soap.  For now I'd like to stay with these 3 oils as they are easy access and I'm not sure I want to spend the time driving all over Denver to locate oils or pay shipping costs right now.  Salt and sugar seem like a possible viable alternative.

Any help (and your patients with the silly newbie questions) would be appreciated.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

Welcome, Sunkawakan.
There is a "sticky"some where with abbreviations, but I can't find it (help?)
I haven't worn the new off joining here either.

This sugar test is to see if it actually helps lather and it's not looking good.
Sugar can create problems in soap, so don't bother with it right now.

I've used salt to harden soap quicker and it seems
to help lather too. Try 1/2 t. ppo (per pound of oil/fat) 
and see what you think -- dissolve it in your lye/water for CP (cold process)
soap -- don't think you want quick-hardening for hot process (HP) soap,
which hardens too quickly already.

We're going to do some salt tests (varying amounts) to see what's
the best for hardening, lather and skin-feel, so that recommended
salt amount may change.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

jmk7765 said:
			
		

> I will be doing the salt test tomorrow!



Three cheers for jmk & salt tests!


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## holly99 (Sep 1, 2009)

What a great test. Thank you for being so thorough in your findings!


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## holly99 (Sep 1, 2009)

Sunkawakan, I was so confused until a read this a few weeks ago! It's a list of the abbreviations used.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... reviations


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

holly99 said:
			
		

> It's a list of the abbreviations used.
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... reviations



Thanks, Holly!


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## Bnky (Sep 2, 2009)

CastorFan:  Great, great, great experiment.  Can you tell if the basic and sugar are still the best for lather/bubbles?  and does the honey have any type of scent yet?  Thanks for the thorough experiment & timely explanation!


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## jmk7765 (Sep 2, 2009)

TABLE SALT TEST

I made a 4 lb. batch of oils - similar to my normal recipe (-Castor Oil as I'm out) and divided it into 4 1lb. sections. Mixed lye with distilled water and divided into 4.

Batch #1- no salt
Batch #2- 1/2 t. PPO
Batch #3- 3/4 t. PPO
Batch #4- 1 t. PPO

All are poured into Pringles cans.

Lye mix was somewhat warm when I added the salt. I wish I had added it when the lye mix was hot because it took forever to dissolve. Oils were at 110-120 degrees.
Batch 4 reached trace within 15 seconds & 2 short blasts with SB. (Whoa Nellie!!) Poured. Very light color.
Batch 3 reached trace very quickly also - as a matter of fact I counted to 13 and poured. Same color as batch 4.
Batch 2 seemed to reach trace just as quickly & I poured. Same color as the others.
Batch 1 - with no salt reached trace the same as the others and is the same color.

Put all 4 into the oven to keep warm. 1 hour later I check them and #2 is very liquidy and I'm wondering if it didn't really reach trace. All the others are pretty solid like set pudding. #2 is like egg nog-I pour it back into the mixing bowl and give it a few short blasts with SB. It was and is traced. Back into the Pringles can and oven.







 Batch 1 - no salt






 Batch 2 - 1/2 t. PPO






 Batch 2






 Batch 3 - 3/4 t. salt PPO






 Batch 4 - 1 t. salt PPO


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

Bnky said:
			
		

> CastorFan:  Great, great, great experiment.  Can you tell if the basic and sugar are still the best for lather/bubbles?  and does the honey have any type of scent yet?  Thanks for the thorough experiment & timely explanation!



Sugar Test:
Sniffed this am -- and all bars are still scent-free/same color as before:
basic/granulated= white, Karo/honey = dark tan
Had 3 new volunteers to test lather of the soap -- they all chose the basic
or the gran. sugar bar, said the darker bars lathered least (honey & Karo lathered least).

Regarding JMK's salt test! Wow on the tracing. All the same you think?
So the salt didn't affect trace time (that you could tell)?


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## jmk7765 (Sep 2, 2009)

It appears that the salt had no effect on trace. Since I began mixing the batch with the highest amount of salt, I thought it had accelerated trace - but after mixing them all - there was no difference with the exception of #2 that is slower to set up.
I'll post again later tonight.


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## Bnky (Sep 2, 2009)

Thanks Castorfan, I am grateful for the information.  Jmk7765, can't wait to hear if your experiment shows any differences.   Cute avatar!


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## Milla (Sep 2, 2009)

jmk7765 said:
			
		

> It appears that the salt had no effect on trace. Since I began mixing the batch with the highest amount of salt, I thought it had accelerated trace - but after mixing them all - there was no difference with the exception of #2 that is slower to set up.
> I'll post again later tonight.



That is so nice of you to take the time to do this experiment!  Can't wait to see the results!


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## jmk7765 (Sep 3, 2009)

Headed to the airport - will post later tonight.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2009)

I lathered up the test bars today.
Still no odor from all the bars.
All the bars still same color.

I did the test, then chose the best 2 of them lather-wise
and had to lather up 7 times before I made this decision.
I'll get some outside individuals next time I test -- it's close.

Honey - definitely the worst for lather
Karo - better than honey, but 2nd worst of 4
Granulated sugar and basic bar with nothing are VERY close latherwise,
I gave up and had to say that the
basic bar is 2nd for lather
best-lathering bar - granulated sugar.

Like I said, I'll keep these bars and test again later.
It was close, but I suppose there really is something to sugar creating
lather.

Definitely honey INHIBITS lather.


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## TessC (Sep 10, 2009)

My experience with honey has been different, fwiw, but I do not add it to my lye solution. I've done my own informal tests involving the omission of the honey from my normal recipes, and there was a difference in lather that was noticeable to myself and to my little team of family and friend testers.


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## Guest (Sep 10, 2009)

TessV said:
			
		

> My experience with honey has been different, fwiw, but I do not add it to my lye solution. I've done my own informal tests involving the omission of the honey from my normal recipes, and there was a difference in lather that was noticeable to myself and to my little team of family and friend testers.



I didn't add it to the lye solution either. I blended it into the soap after the
lye was added and the soap traced thinly. I can send you a cut-off sample
of the test bars if you don't believe it.


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## TessC (Sep 10, 2009)

Heh, I didn't say I don't believe you, I said that my experience has been different.


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## IrishLass (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks for posting your results Castorfan.   

Different soapers can end up with different results depending on their recipe and other factors. I know soapers on another forum who swear they can't detect any difference at all in their lather with the addition of sugar, while I and others can detect a great improvement (maybe their recipes are just better than ours or something  :wink: ). 

My own experience with honey is like TessV's in that my honey soaps lather better than my soaps with granulated sugar using the same recipe. They both get a nice boost of lather with the  addition of either one, but my honey soaps definitely have a slight edge over my granulated sugared ones. Don't know if it makes a difference or not, but I add my honey to the lye water.

IrishLass  

Edited to add that I noticed you used the equivalent of 2 Tbsp ppo of each of the batches. I use 1 tbsp. ppo (measured with measuring spoons as opposed to weight), and mix them with my lye water, so that's another reason for our different results. I measure everything by weight except my sugars. Don't know why I do it that way, but I just do.


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## Guest (Sep 11, 2009)

I use 1 TBSP Icing sugar PPO and have the same view as Irish Lass . There is a marked improvement in the bubbles in the batches with sugar , compared to my older soap with no sugar .I'm a believer !!


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## dandelion (Sep 11, 2009)

great experiment, I learned so much!


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## MsBien (Sep 11, 2009)

This is such an interesting experiment, thanks Carstorfan.

Could it be that the soaps need to have more resting time before they will show their true lather?  I've also seen great lather from my honey soap.

Stacie


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