# Shaving Soap - Want to Make It?



## LBussy (Apr 28, 2015)

After a whole lot more work than you think it would be, I am finally done with the articles I started writing several months ago.  I had a lot of help and it definitely would not have been possible without everyone here.  I wanted to release these here first - because most of my help came from this forum, and because most of you are experienced enough to catch anything that I screwed up after the editors blessed it.

These articles are intended to take a non-soaper who wants to make shave soap (like a few of us were) through their first batch.  Here they are:


The Beginning
Sourcing Tools and Ingredients
Process
The website is not fully "gelled" yet, but it will get there.  This was the important part.  I hope you will enjoy reading as much as I enjoy learning and sharing it.


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## Sonya-m (Apr 28, 2015)

Excellent timing! I'm just about to embark on researching shave soap as my husband is pestering me to try!


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## LBussy (Apr 28, 2015)

Sonya-m said:


> Excellent timing! I'm just about to embark on researching shave soap as my husband is pestering me to try!


Glad to hear it Sonya!  Of course the sourcing links may not be entirely appropriate, but at least it will give you a starting point.

And of course if you (anyone) see things which are not clear, wrong, etc., tell me!


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## Sonya-m (Apr 28, 2015)

I've had very quick read through but intend to read it thoroughly. One thing I already now know is that my stearic acid isn't just stearic, it's the last one you talk about - 67701-03-5


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## LBussy (Apr 28, 2015)

Sonya-m said:


> I've had very quick read through but intend to read it thoroughly. One thing I already now know is that my stearic acid isn't just stearic, it's the last one you talk about - 67701-03-5


If that's what I had, I'd certainly not run out and replace it.  Make a batch and see how you like it.  The SAP values between the two are so close as to be within the margin of error I'd think.


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## snappyllama (Apr 30, 2015)

Fantastic article!  Thanks for sharing it!  I'll be trying it out soon.


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## DCarter23103 (Apr 30, 2015)

I love your article and it has inspired me to finally try making a shaving soap!


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## LBussy (Apr 30, 2015)

Awesome, so glad.  We always need more folks making it.   Be sure to tell us how it goes.


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## cpacamper (Apr 30, 2015)

Lee, Fantastic job!

I skimmed Parts I and II (I'm at work), but look forward to reading more closely in the peace and quite of home.  Thank you for taking the time to write that up.


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## hozhed (Apr 30, 2015)

LBussy said:


> After a whole lot more work than you think it would be, I am finally done with the articles I started writing several months ago. I had a lot of help and it definitely would not have been possible without everyone here. I wanted to release these here first - because most of my help came from this forum, and because most of you are experiences enough to catch anything that I screwed up after the editors blessed it.
> 
> These articles are intended to take a non-soaper who wants to make shave soap (like a few of us were) through their first batch. Here they are:
> 
> ...


 

I have been making my own shaving soap for some time, as I use a straight razor or De razor and all the recipes I have seen use at least some Clay, (bentonite) for the "slip" you need when shaving................this recipe doesn't need it?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 30, 2015)

You can add 10-15% glycerine instead. Many shavers won't use a soap with clay because of possible damage to the blades.

Many "shaving soap" recipes floating about are just bar soap with clay, which muddies the water, so to speak


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## LBussy (Apr 30, 2015)

hozhed said:


> I have been making my own shaving soap for some time, as I use a straight razor or De razor and all the recipes I have seen use at least some Clay, (bentonite) for the "slip" you need when shaving................this recipe doesn't need it?


It's dirt, it's an abrasive no matter how you look at it, and it does not add slip to an otherwise good soap.   If you have a good shave soap you don't need clay.  As an additive to a bar soap people are not likely to be as critical of a user as someone who is sliding a death-dealing implement past their windpipe.  

If you hone your own razor, consider that clay particle size is considerably larger than the typical strop compounds.

Make it, see what you think.


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## hozhed (Apr 30, 2015)

LBussy said:


> It's dirt, it's an abrasive no matter how you look at it, and it does not add slip to an otherwise good soap. If you have a good shave soap you don't need clay. As an additive to a bar soap people are not likely to be as critical of a user as someone who is sliding a death-dealing implement past their windpipe.
> 
> If you hone your own razor, consider that clay particle size is considerably larger than the typical strop compounds.
> 
> Make it, see what you think.


 

"someone who is sliding a death-dealing implement past their windpipe. "
:grin: Too funny. it just takes a bit of practice, LB. Also, the small particle of bentonite, and amounts used I would think would not bother a razor, leastwise, I have not noticed it. I am going to try some soap with the glycerin and see how it works out of curiosity. Maybe a recipe that I can use some of my honey in it.


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## LBussy (Apr 30, 2015)

hozhed said:


> :grin:   Too funny. it just takes a bit of practice, LB.   Also, the small particle of bentonite, and amounts used I would think would not bother a razor, leastwise, I have not noticed it.  I am going to try some soap with the glycerin and see how it works out of curiosity.


I shave every morning with one of my death-dealing instruments so I hear ya.

Bentonite (any clay) does no good and potentially some harm.  Make this and see what you think.  There are a lot of folks who have tried bar soap + clay vs. shaving soap and the results speak for themselves.

IF a person is predisposed to not using enough water then they might not get the benefits - glycerine needs water, but once hydrated it is a far superior shave.



hozhed said:


> Maybe a recipe that I can use some of my honey in it.


I missed that the first time.  I LOVE me some hunney!  








hozhed said:


> I am going to try some soap with the glycerin and see how it works out of curiosity.


Just adding glycerin to any recipe you have now doesn't necessarily achieve the same thing by the way - the recipe I shared was designed to work as-is.  If you were thinking of taking your recipe and subbing glycerin for clay I have no reference for how that will work.


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## vyadha (Apr 30, 2015)

LBussy said:


> It's dirt, it's an abrasive no matter how you look at it, and it does not add slip to an otherwise good soap.   If you have a good shave soap you don't need clay.  As an additive to a bar soap people are not likely to be as critical of a user as someone who is sliding a death-dealing implement past their windpipe.
> 
> If you hone your own razor, consider that clay particle size is considerably larger than the typical strop compounds.
> 
> Make it, see what you think.



I completely agree. Im a noob to this site and have been using a straight for 5 years. The shave soaps I made a few years ago that called for clay were terrible. No cushion, no lasting lather, just slick due to expensive mud:wink:. 

Ive never purchased a decent shaving soap that had clay in the it. YMMV...... but it seems to me that clay is a way to bypass truly tweaking and perfecting the minutiae of quality soap making.


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## nix (May 1, 2015)

I'm just a bit confused about the stearic acid in part 2, CAS 57-11-4 which is solely octadecanoic acid and you provide a link to a company who sells it. If you follow that link and check the MSDS for that product its composition is  Hexadecanoic Acid 59%, Octadecanoic Acid 40%, Tetradecanoic Acid 1% is this correct. Excellent articles by the way.


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## LBussy (May 1, 2015)

nix said:


> I'm just a bit confused about the stearic acid in part 2, CAS 57-11-4 which is solely octadecanoic acid and you provide a link to a company who sells it. If you follow that link and check the MSDS for that product its composition is  Hexadecanoic Acid 59%, Octadecanoic Acid 40%, Tetradecanoic Acid 1% is this correct. Excellent articles by the way.


Interesting ... I'll have to shoot them a note.  I've not busted into my new bag from them, I would be disappointed if the CAS number (which should always be authoritative) was wrong.



LBussy said:


> nix said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just a bit confused about the stearic acid in part 2, CAS 57-11-4 which is solely octadecanoic acid and you provide a link to a company who sells it. If you follow that link and check the MSDS for that product its composition is  Hexadecanoic Acid 59%, Octadecanoic Acid 40%, Tetradecanoic Acid 1% is this correct. Excellent articles by the way.
> ...



I sent an email last night.  Since an MSDS is created by the supplier I think (hope) that she simply got over-zealous with a cut and paste during edits.  If you look the CAS for SA is included in the ingredients list of the MSDS for SA making it quite a circular reference. :shifty:



LBussy said:


> LBussy said:
> 
> 
> > nix said:
> ...


Okay Jen emailed me back and provided more information.  The product at Lotioncrafter isn't really just stearic acid -  EMERSOL® 7036 is the supplier's name and they do sell it as 57-11-4 (which I find strange).  It is a mix of Palmitic, stearic and others (in that order of predominance).  Looking at the Emersol product line, it appears that the EMERSOL® 153 NF would be a more pure stearic at >= 95%.  This product bears the same CAS number which I must admit confuses me greatly.  I want to be clear I don't think Jen was being disingenuous, and she did provide the MSDS which I should have read first.

So I must admit I am at a little bit of a loss - I created the original recipe with stearic acid but the original supplier does not have any available.  If we have a theoretic 100% pure stearic acid vs a theoretic pure "other" product at 55/45% and compare them we find the following:

Molar mass of Stearic Acid:  284.48
Molar mass of mixed acid:  271.854
Difference:  4.4%

My recipe uses 53% stearic acid so that's an effective difference of 2.35%.  If the recipe was figured for real stearic acid, then using this mix would result in a lye surplus of 2.35% applied to the recipe which was 5% lye discount anyway - so the effect is a soap that's only 2.65% superfat.

Now then a Real Good Question™ would be: Was the original SAP value used to calculate the recipe right?

By molar ratios, pure SA's SAP value would be 0.141, SoapCalc has it as 0.141 so this is correct.  The mixed acid product would have an SAP of 0.147.  So, the way I figured my recipe stands but if someone uses the mix it will result in a lower superfat than originally planned.

AND ... I have "stearic acid" that's just perfectly fine for most things but is not how I originally planned the recipe.  What to do?  Anyone know where I can get actual Stearic Acid?

Those are my problems.  The casual observer may be wondering what they are to do if they want to make this.  Well, I did two test batches this evening, one from my dwindling supply of real SA and one from the new "SA" (adjusted back to a 5% SF).  In a week I will try them blindly (I'll have the darling wife help) and see what I think of the difference, if any.  Will two carbon atoms and two hydrogen atoms amake a difference?  Stay tuned!


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## nix (May 3, 2015)

> Okay Jen emailed me back and provided more information.  The product at Lotioncrafter isn't really just stearic acid -  EMERSOL® 7036 is the supplier's name and they do sell it as 57-11-4  (which I find strange).  It is a mix of Palmitic, stearic and others  (in that order of predominance).  Looking at the Emersol product line,  it appears that the EMERSOL® 153 NF would be a more pure stearic at >= 95%.   This product bears the same CAS number which I must admit confuses me  greatly.  I want to be clear I don't think Jen was being disingenuous,  and she did provide the MSDS which I should have read first.
> 
> So I must admit I am at a little bit of a loss - I created the original  recipe with stearic acid but the original supplier does not have any  available.  If we have a theoretic 100% pure stearic acid vs a theoretic  pure "other" product at 55/45% and compare them we find the following:
> 
> ...


Stearic acid cas 57-11-4 seams to be a broad description of stearic acid products with multiple composition / grades / purity. Suppliers are not clear in their descriptions at all about what you are going to purchase, you do need to be checking product descriptions / MSDS for composition (high stearic content), molar mass 284.48, melting point 69'C.

The difference between a stearic acid mix (60% palmitic / 40% stearic) and a 96% pure stearic acid are its koh sap value and the qualities it gives to the final soap.

koh sap 60/40 mix = 0.211

koh sap 96% stearic = 0.198

6.36% difference

If you make no changes to your recipe and replace the 96% pure stearic acid with the 60/40 mix, given that stearic acid makes up 53% of your recipe this would mean that there would be a 3.37% difference (53% of 6.36) in the discount, because 60/40 mix needs more lye to saponify you will be left with more unsaponified 60/40 mix, i think a discount of around 8.37% (higher discounts in a shaving soap reduces lather). The final qualities of the soap must be effected because you have gone from 96% stearic to only 40% which is a 82.35% difference, i'm sure the main reason stearic acid is used in shaving soaps is for lather stability, i don't know if the 60% palmitic acid in the 60/40 mix will help this or not ?

After some searching i found a supplier of 98% and 95% stearic acid in the uk probably no help as your in the us

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search?term=57-11-4&interface=CAS%20No.&N=0&mode=match%20partialmax&lang=en®ion=GB&focus=product


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## LBussy (May 3, 2015)

nix said:


> Stearic acid cas 57-11-4 seams to be a broad description of stearic acid products with multiple composition / grades / purity.


Except it is not meant to be.  Have a look at the National Institute of Standards and Technology:

http://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cgi?ID=57-11-4

In addition, CAS.org says:



> A CAS Registry Number, however, is unique and specific to only one substance regardless of how many other ways the substance can be described.



So the labeling is wrong no matter how you look at it.  I'm just surprised nobody has said anything so far.  I suppose it's because the primary use of that product for that supplier is in cosmetics where I further suppose it makes absolutely no difference.  (Leaving aside for a moment that shaving soap is a cosmetic)



> and replace the 96% pure stearic acid with the 60/40 mix, given that stearic acid makes up 53% of your recipe this would mean that there would be a 3.37% difference (53% of 6.36) in the discount,


Close.

The ratio is 55/45.  If you look at the MSDS it says minimum 41% stearic and 50% palmitic.  Extrapolated to 100% that's 55/45 and my numbers are correct.  I have them for NaOH of course but the percentages are correct for that assumption.  "Regular" stearic was figured at 100%, as are all other references for SAP values.  One has to go ahead and account for impurities the same as we do for lye.



> After some searching i found a supplier of 98% and 95% stearic acid in the uk probably no help as your in the us
> 
> http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search?term=57-11-4&interface=CAS%20No.&N=0&mode=match%20partialmax&lang=en®ion=GB&focus=product


Sigma Aldritch is a large supplier and in the US as well.  At $66 for 1 KG (Kosher/Halal/Food Grade) and compared to the 5# of SA I bought for $18.75 from the other vendor, it's approximately 698% higher in price.  If I buy 20 KG that difference drops down to "only" a 64% increase (if my before coffee math is correct).

Anyone want to do a group buy on a fiber container of SA?  :razz:

I suspect, based on using soaps which do have a palm oil component, that the qualities will be similar between the two batches.  Those have had a dense enough lather and losing the constituent oleic acid in palm by this being palmitic acid will get a little closer to what I was looking for in the shave soap.


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## nix (May 3, 2015)

The MSDS for the product you gave a link to is "Stearic acid NF" and on their web site that links to an MSDS for Emersol 7036 Vegetable Stearic Acid, NF,  Food Grade, Koshe.

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/reference/msds_stearic_acid.pdf

If you check the composition its Hexadecanoic Acid 59%, Octadecanoic Acid 40%, Tetradecanoic Acid 1% its their in black and white. There is no need to extrapolate.

I am sorry but your figures are wrong.

As for price what can you expect, you have to pay for purity, and its you who want to use it. Most stearic acid sold for soap making is the 60% palmitic acid / 40% stearic acid, which i have used for several years and most discussions on this form and others about shaving soaps are based.


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## LBussy (May 3, 2015)

nix said:


> I am sorry but your figures are wrong.


That is the Lotioncrafter MSDS.  I used the supplier's MSDS: http://gmzcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/TD_emersol_7036.pdf  (which I also linked)  I don't know why there's a difference but Jen told me that's where she got it and which product it was so I'm going to take the supplier's MSDS as the more authoritative.

Without a real test to figure the SAP value it's academic anyway, since we don't know the level of impurities.  Real Soon Now™ I'm going to get the rest of what I need to do those titrations.

Does the average soaper _need _to do that?  I'd argue not.  It is part of what I enjoy about this though - learning the science behind the craft.  I approach cooking, music, pyrotechnics, all the things I really love in the same manner.  It's definitely a product of some OCD tendencies.



> As for price what can you expect, you have to pay for purity, and its you who want to use it. Most stearic acid sold for soap making is the 60% palmitic acid / 40% stearic acid, which i have used for several years and most discussions on this form and others about shaving soaps are based.


The food grade I quoted is not any more or less pure than the other - we just happen to be lucky enough to have a craft supplier that can buy in bulk and pass those savings along to us.  I suspect if I want to buy around 250# I can get the same price for food grade SA.  

And please don't get me wrong - I know there's nothing wrong with the product as sold and used by soapers since long before this wet-nosed soaper got here.  It's 55% curiosity and 45% because I just happened to create a recipe I like with real SA.  If at the end I find I can't source it in quantities for the average person, I'll revise my articles (and my recipe) accordingly.


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## nix (May 3, 2015)

I think i will stick with my palmitic acid / stearic acid mix, its readily available and cheap. Looking at your recipe if i took out the lanolin and used a NaOH / KOH lye mix, it would be a very good copy of Dapper dragons tallow soap (without the sodium lactate).


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## not_ally (May 3, 2015)

Lee, it took me a while to click on this link b/c I am not going to be making shaving soap in the near future.  So the part I loved the best was the history.  I love reading about how the people I like here came to be, soap-related or not, so thanks for sharing.  

Also, if I *do* ever embark on making shaving soap, this would be a very useful guide.  Thank you for making it open-source.


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## LBussy (May 3, 2015)

nix said:


> I think i will stick with my palmitic acid / stearic acid mix, its readily available and cheap. Looking at your recipe if i took out the lanolin and used a NaOH / KOH lye mix, it would be a very good copy of Dapper dragons tallow soap (without the sodium lactate).


I assure you it is not a copy.  Perhaps we ended up in a similar area, which speaks to the strong base the SA/CO provides for the supporting cast.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 3, 2015)

Bear in mind that Dapper Dragon is the company that Songwind runs, he who started the shaving thread here from which most of us have made our start with shaving soaps


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## LBussy (May 3, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Bear in mind that Dapper Dragon is the company that Songwind runs, he who started the shaving thread here from which most of us have made our start with shaving soaps


I understand - still not where I started.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 4, 2015)

Ah yes - but he also started off in the LASS thread on badger and blade before starting the one here. I am not saying that yours (or mine for that matter) is a Dapper Dragon clone, but we all seem to have a similar origin


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## LBussy (May 4, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Ah yes - but he also started off in the LASS thread on badger and blade before starting the one here. I am not saying that yours (or mine for that matter) is a Dapper Dragon clone, but we all seem to have a similar origin


True, John got a lot of us started thinking about what was on the label and how that translated into soap.  I owe a lot to him; he broke new ground, and answered a lot of stupid questions before I came hee.  That's right, my questions were even dumber back then. 

My results are in.  To recap:

Soapcalc has Stearic acid at a SAP of 0.198.  The new product I have has a SAP that’s ~6% higher.  The original recipe used Stearic acid at 45% so that’s an effective difference of ~2.7%.  Our superfat was calculated at 5% so it does raise the superfat from 5% to ~7.7%.  The difference is small.  We’ve also got a different fat makeup now; the difference in the fat profile is pretty simple.  The new formulation is +18% Palmitic and -18% Stearic compared to the original.

Both Palmitic and Stearic acid contribute dense stable lather and a harder soap to the mix.  To most soapers the two are interchangeable.  To settle it, I did what I said I was not going to do in the other article:  I re-formulated.  I made three small test batches:

A test batch with my original (now dwindling) supply of straight Stearic Acid
A test batch switched 1:1 with the Lotioncrafter product
A test batch with lye adjustments made to take the different fats into account
The testing was randomized and I shaved three times with each one and recorded the results.  This was done to help even out the effect of the soap as it ages since it was used relatively soon after the cooking.

Results?

The first shave cycle had one sample just maybe being a tiny bit drying.   It was still a good shave and all had very similar lather otherwise.
The second shave cycle I thought maybe there was a difference but as I looked back at my notes I realize I was just kidding myself.
The third shave cycle was much like the second. Maybe, just maybe, one was a tiny bit drying.  All were good enough to put my name on them though.
When I peeled the tape off the labels, I discovered that in round one I did score batch #2 down just a tiny bit.  In round 2 the one I thought maybe was a tiny bit drying was the original (#1).  The difference was so slight that it could simply have been a difference in the humidity.  By cycle three the one I thought might be drying was again sample #2, the straight swap.

The winner was basically a tie, there was not enough difference to say one way or the other.  A better test would include more shaves, different people, all that mess.  Since I make this for me I see no reason not to use the Lotioncrafter product going forward.  If you do a test, do let me know what you think.

I am going to add this as an addenda to the original story.  I have put it here but it is not linked from the original yet:

A New Wrinkle

If you want to have a look at the whole story, the math, the figures, the thinking, have a look.  I'll wait a couple days for any of you to correct me if you like, then I'll link the two together.


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## nix (May 10, 2015)

My thoughts.

 If you enter the original recipe into soapcalc you get the following.







I hope we can agree that this is correct

 Now replace the 45% stearic Acid with Palmitic Acid @ 26.55%, Stearic Acid @ 18% and  Myristic  Acid @ 0.45% with no other change to the recipe and you get.






But wait a minute I need more Lye now, so lets adjust the super fat / discount until we get it back to the original Lye amount and this is what I get.






So that would suggest to me that if you replace the original Stearic Acid with Stearic Acid NF and keep the Lye amount as the original recipe you would have ended up with a Lye discount of 7.12% not 2.19%, this is the complete opposite of what you are saying. I just do not understand how you think the new Lye discount would be 2.19%.

 If you stick with your calculation of a discount of 2.19% you will probably raise this back to 5%, in doing so the net effect would actually raise the discount to almost 10% (approx), probably well on the way to being way to high for a shaving soap. What would you then blame for the change in lather? Unknowing in reality your discount is to high.

 I must congratulate you on making your three test batches and carrying out your blind tests ( nine shaves in total ) all done in five days, excellent job.

 I would speculate here that your original 100% Stearic Acid would have been a similar product to Stearic Acid NF. Was it a similar price or was it expensive. Given that it may just have been a similar product your findings should indicate that there is not much difference between your three test batches and reading your results that exactly your findings.

Sorry two things i forgot to add.

Processing 45% Stearic Acid @ 95%+ purity would be something i would like to see, as it must be so hard to work with, yet 45% Stearic Acid @ 40% purity is workable.

Would be great to get Stearic Acid NF included in soapcalc's oil list, with the correct sap value and fatty acid profile, as most soap makers use this product ( or one with a similar composition )


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## LBussy (May 10, 2015)

nix said:


> My thoughts.


Yes please - because you have been ever so pleasant in all of your six posts.



> But wait a minute I need more Lye now, so lets adjust the super fat / discount until we get it back to the original Lye amount and this is what I get.


You are correct, and thank you for pointing out I was bass-ackwards.  I have a very large/boring spreadsheet where I did it by hand first so I knew what the Soapcalc one should look like - as I was using it in a manner for which it was not really built.

The article was written at several sittings so my mistake (being backwards in describing math like this is not all that uncommon I think you will agree?)



> So that would suggest to me that if you replace the original Stearic Acid with Stearic Acid NF and keep the Lye amount as the original recipe you would have ended up with a Lye discount of 7.12% not 2.19%, this is the complete opposite of what you are saying. I just do not understand how you think the new Lye discount would be 2.19%.


I agree, I need to go back and re-re edit.  This is why I posted here first, to have a critical eye go over it. How luck for me that you are so willing to be critical.



> What would you then blame for the change in lather? Unknowing in reality your discount is to high.


The higher discount being ever so slightly more drying one time could be due to the different rate of cure, or it may be due to the effects of the now unsaponified CO being part of the Superfat.  Not really sure.  As I think I said in the article, more testing, more samples, more people would certainly have been better.  The take-away was that there was no significant difference in comfort and although I was careful, there remains the possibility that doing 100g batches on a scale with a resolution of 0.01g could have injected some variance.



> I must congratulate you on making your three test batches and carrying out your blind tests ( nine shaves in total ) all done in five days, excellent job.


Thank you.  I often shave twice a day (since I also hone straight razors as a hobby).  It gives me more ability to test things out like new to me vintage Japanese whetstones.  My beard is all too happy to oblige (I started growing facial hair at 14), and my face is quite used to it.

Oh wait, you were being snide and sarcastic.  I almost missed that because your tone is so congenial.  That aside, the answer is the same.



> I would speculate here that your original 100% Stearic Acid would have been a similar product to Stearic Acid NF. Was it a similar price or was it expensive. Given that it may just have been a similar product your findings should indicate that there is not much difference between your three test batches and reading your results that exactly your findings.


You would speculate incorrectly.  The stearic acid I have (now = had, I did my last batch using it yesterday) was purchased from a chemical surplus dealer I work with to purchase chemicals for my fireworks.  In fireworks, stearic acid (or stearine) is used as a mechanical lubricant for production, and as a cooler temp clean fuel for the production of blue stars.  The two are interchangeable in that setting because any difference in fuel value is well within the margin of error for that process.

Like with soapmaking, people who create fireworks for themselves use significantly smaller amounts of many products compared to the intended target industry.  One can often purchase say a truckload of written-off chemicals for a considerable discount.  While I opted to not have that product run through GC (I was quoted over $1K); the original packaging, assumed intended target industry, and the difference in physical properties observed between it and the new product, all combine to give me some assurance I did have straight SA.  The point is moot however since I can't get any more and I have reformulated to the new product.

I'm not really sure why you are such a jackass here, or why you choose to lock horns with me, but just take the opportunity to not read my posts if you want to be argumentative.  That's not really how we roll here.


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## LBussy (May 10, 2015)

My spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10m3g2GNnjpV2_smfSlpnmbCK_1xTD-Fs9xa2hjDex_E/edit?usp=sharing

(not really sure if it will survive Excel to Google Docs conversion)



nix said:


> Would be great to get Stearic Acid NF included in soapcalc's oil list, with the correct sap value and fatty acid profile, as most soap makers use this product ( or one with a similar composition )


I agree, I sent them the following feedback via the website:



> I was doing some figuring and discovered that the listing you have for 'Stearic Acid' is for Stearic acid - but 100% Stearic acid is not commonly available to us. The most commonly available product is Stearic Acid NF which is a food grade product made of Palmitic, Stearic, and a touch of Myristic acids.
> 
> This Stearic Acid NF product, as obtained from Lotioncrafters, has a calculated SAP of 0.210 where the listing you have is at 0.198 - a ~6% difference. In a high Stearic recipe, such as shaving soap, this error can become significant enough to make a difference.
> 
> I was wondering if maybe you could add a new entry for Stearic Acid NF at 0.150 for NaOH and 0.210 for KOH?


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## nix (May 19, 2015)

I don't know if your aware but your superfat oils (50% of the Shea butter and 50% of the Lanolin) that you add after passing the zap test and cooking for two hours, after all the lye has reacted with the oils, are included in you lye calculation. As the superfat oils are put to one side and not saponified with the other oils, this will at the point of passing the zap test, reduce the lye discount to only 1.7%. Is this achievable and repeatable given weighing and product variation.


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## LBussy (May 19, 2015)

nix said:


> I don't know if your aware but your superfat oils (50% of the Shea butter and 50% of the Lanolin) that you add after passing the zap test and cooking for two hours, after all the lye has reacted with the oils, are included in you lye calculation. As the superfat oils are put to one side and not saponified with the other oils, this will at the point of passing the zap test, reduce the lye discount to only 1.7%. Is this achievable and repeatable given weighing and product variation.


I'm not quite sure of the question.  If I understand you correctly, you are cautioning (?) that the lye discount is 1.7% (actually calculated to no discount now that it is re-formulated for the new product).  If so, yes, I agree and that's intended.  Is it repeatable?  Every batch so far.  That does suggest that I am either extremely lucky or there is a slight lye discount built in somewhere.

I don't think this approach is unique, given the feedback from the other HP soapers here who use a similar superfat process.


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## Soapboiler (May 19, 2015)

LBussy said:


> These articles are intended to take a non-soaper who wants to make shave soap (like a few of us were) through their first batch.  Here they are:



Very informative. I was concerned about the smoothness of molding HP soap, and like how you formed the pucks.

Noticed you went with all KOH instead of a KOH/NaOH combination. Is that due to the use of stearic acid?


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## nix (May 19, 2015)

I don't think you understand my question, I don't mean drop the lye discount to 2.3% using the original recipe so it calculates correctly.

 Let me try and explain.

 This is your updated recipe with Stearic Acid NF but entered into soapcalc as palmitic, stearic and myristic acids giving a SAP of 0.210





From the above recipe you will remove 11.34g of Shea butter and 11.34g of Lanolin reducing the total weight of oils to be saponified to 430.91g, the lye amount remains unchanged at 101.66g, you have now reduced your lye discount to 1.7% not 5%

 Now after cooking and cooling you add  11.34g of Shea butter and 11.34g of Lanolin which is 5.265% of 430.91 giving a superfat of 5.2%

 As your recipe states 5% discount this is what is confusing (sorry)

 Is it not 1.7% lye discount and 5.2% superfat giving an overall discount of 6.9%


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## LBussy (May 19, 2015)

nix said:


> This is your updated recipe with Stearic Acid NF but entered into soapcalc as palmitic, stearic and myristic acids giving a SAP of 0.210


That's the SAP of the Stearic Acid NF, yes.  The batch SAP is 0.213.  With 5% superfat that calculates to 101.86 which is what my spreadsheet tells me and is pretty close to being the same as SoapCalc.  So far so good.



> From the above recipe you will remove 11.34g of Shea butter and 11.34g of Lanolin reducing the total weight of oils to be saponified to 430.91g, the lye amount remains unchanged at 101.66g, you have now reduced your lye discount to 1.7% not 5%


Removing that results in a change to the effective recipe ... we are now at 47/26/21/3/3% of the ingredients with a total weight of 431.2 and an effective SAP of 0.216.  At 0% superfat that works out to 103.62.  Compared to the 101.66 that we are really using due to what I'll call "bonzai math" (taking the easy way out and reserving 5% of the oils) we are actually at a 1.8% lye discount.  This is also why I have been able to consistently cook to zap free.  We're close with each other so far.



> Now after cooking and cooling you add 11.34g of Shea butter and 11.34g of Lanolin which is 5.265% of 430.91


Except that it's not figured as a percentage of the lesser amount, it's figured at the percent of the total batch weight we started with (and upon which we calculated the lye requirement).   



> giving a superfat of 5.2%


This is back to 5% superfat/lye discount because we can simply calculate the lye requirement back at the original 45/25/20/5/5% and 5% superfat.



> Is it not 1.7% lye discount and 5.2% superfat giving an overall discount of 6.9%


No, it's 1.8% discount (we're close enough) during the cook and 5% after we're done.



Soapboiler said:


> Very informative. I was concerned about the smoothness of molding HP soap, and like how you formed the pucks.


I did a couple subsequent batches in Brambleberry's Column Mold, and a small silicone circular mold I bought somewhere on Amazon.  Both were better than the Pringles, but I unmolded the Pringles can batch about an hour after I was done.  Letting it sit and cool overnight would probably help.  With the Pringles batch, I simply "washed" each puck a bit and they smoothed right out.  Most of my soap is still packaged in tins however.



Soapboiler said:


> Noticed you went with all KOH instead of a KOH/NaOH combination. Is that due to the use of stearic acid?


I think using that mix is a result of reverse-engineering other commercial shaving soaps.  Certainly it would (at least in theory) make a harder soap.  I'm really not a fan of real soap pucks - I like softer soap that loads quite a bit easier.  So, I opted for 100% KOH up front and even though I found this formula leaves a pretty hard soap, it's still quite soluble and loads well.  So, sort of the best of both worlds.

I must admit I've never tried the mix, just as many others have not tried straight KOH - we all tend to stick with what we know.  It just seems simpler to do it without the hassle of using two since I know I get what I want the way it is.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 19, 2015)

No, it is not. 

Because the oils kept to one side are a part of that original calculation with 5%, not cumulative. 

In general, superfat and lye discount can be used interchangeably. But not always.

In this case, the lye discount Is different because not all of the oils that are kept to the end are an average of what went in - there is no coconut, for example.

But this does not mean that the two can be totally added together as the superfat is the % of total oils that is not saponified, NOT the % of saponified oils. An example -

I have a 1,000g oil recipe. If I make that at 0% lye discount and add 50 grams of oil after the cook, it is not a 5% superfat, as I have now have a 1050g batch, not 1000g. If I made a 950g batch at 0% lye discount and add in 50g of oils after the cook, my total batch is now 1000g, 50g of which is not saponified.


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## LBussy (May 19, 2015)

Or you know I could make a MUCH shorter to the point post like EG's. :grin:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 19, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Or you know I could make a MUCH shorter to the point post like EG's. :grin:




I actually thought mine was too long - when we get talking about shaving soap, it's hard to stop us!


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## tryanything (May 19, 2015)

I found a few general editing errors.  In the first part  there is what I think is just a typo.  It confused me, but when I figured out what I thought you meant and did the math myself I figured it out.  In the below paragraph you say 100 grams of KOH.  I think you meant the 211.11 grams.  When you do the math of 211.11 times .495 then you get the 104.5 grams of glycerin.  You just need to change the 100 grams to 211.11.  Does that make sense?  Otherwise I wasn't sure where you got the 100 grams from.

That’s a lot of numbers so let’s get to brass tacks.  I’m going to use Tallow as the standard for how much glycerin I want just because that sounds right as a standard.  Again using SoapCalc, I can see that 1000 grams of tallow requires 211.11 grams of 90% pure KOH.  If I multiply those *100* grams of KOH by 0.495, my value from above, we see that I should be able to count on 104.5 grams of glycerin being released.  I now know that I want to add 104.5 grams of glycerin per kilogram of stearic acid to this recipe.  This works out to an additional 10.5% of the amount of stearic acid in the recipe.

In the second part, under Fragrance Oil, you say you discussed why you chose the FO you did in the first part.  I may have missed that but I didn't see a discussion of FO in the first part.

Otherwise, awesome tutorial and I need to make a test batch myself.


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## Soapboiler (May 19, 2015)

LBussy said:


> I did a couple subsequent batches in Brambleberry's Column Mold, and a small silicone circular mold I bought somewhere on Amazon.  Both were better than the Pringles, but I unmolded the Pringles can batch about an hour after I was done.  Letting it sit and cool overnight would probably help.  With the Pringles batch, I simply "washed" each puck a bit and they smoothed right out.  Most of my soap is still packaged in tins however.



I was toying with the idea of using short sections of 3" PVC pipe, but wasn't satisfied with possibly using wax paper and rubber bands to secure the bottom, and questioned removal. Then, after watching the soap extruder in a <i>How It's Made</i> video, I thought about a longer section of PVC pipe, which would essentially be like the column mold, except the Brambleberry Column Mold uses corrugation and a liner to prevent adhesion. Can see trying to rig a plunger to push all that soap out of the pipe and an epic fail. OTOH, if I try it, might use short sections to gauge the adhesion before trying a longer pipe.





LBussy said:


> I think using that mix is a result of reverse-engineering other commercial shaving soaps.  Certainly it would (at least in theory) make a harder soap.  I'm really not a fan of real soap pucks - I like softer soap that loads quite a bit easier.  So, I opted for 100% KOH up front and even though I found this formula leaves a pretty hard soap, it's still quite soluble and loads well.  So, sort of the best of both worlds.
> 
> I must admit I've never tried the mix, just as many others have not tried straight KOH - we all tend to stick with what we know.  It just seems simpler to do it without the hassle of using two since I know I get what I want the way it is.



I asked because some period formula books gives tallow and coconut oil for the fat, and KOH/NaOH for the caustic. One book on soap making, around 1900-ish, said that tallow made a long-lasting lather but was hard to make, whereas coconut oil made quick lather but it wasn't long lasting. Combining the two seems to give the properties of both.

I can dig up the book name, if anyone's curious. So far, none of the books have mentioned Degree 76 or higher coconut oil, but gives recommendations based on point of origin.

I'm also fascinated by KOH because until widespread production of NaOH, K2CO3 by dripping ashes was the caustic, with KOH as Pearl Ash for better quality soaps.


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## boyago (May 19, 2015)

Soapboiler said:


> I was toying with the idea of using short sections of 3" PVC pipe, but wasn't satisfied with possibly using wax paper and rubber bands to secure the bottom, and questioned removal. Then, after watching the soap extruder in a <i>How It's Made</i> video, I thought about a longer section of PVC pipe, which would essentially be like the column mold, except the Brambleberry Column Mold uses corrugation and a liner to prevent adhesion. Can see trying to rig a plunger to push all that soap out of the pipe and an epic fail. OTOH, if I try it, might use short sections to gauge the adhesion before trying a longer pipe.



I use the 3" PVC to mold most of my bar soaps.  If you really want to over-build a mold you could weld in Shrader valve to push the soap with air pressure like I did.  This became totally irrelevant after I figured out to just properly grease my molds and push the soap with soup cans.  Also no idea why it took someone here to mention the caps you can get anywhere they sell the 3" pipe but I ditched the tape and wax paper method when it became an embarrassing obvious solution. I still use the freezer paper since the caps are rubber.
The shaving soaps mostly discussed here and the ones I make are too soft really for pushing and soft enough that I think the edges might drag under the air and bow/tear the soap on it's way out of the PVC.  This hasn't been a problem really since I've mostly made mine for personal use and when I git them or show them off I send them off in canning jars. If you went with a harder soap you could pull it off.

ETA: on second thought I bet the air would work on the soft soap.
ETAA: freezer paper not wax.


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## LBussy (May 20, 2015)

Look for the toilet flanges when you buy parts and pieces again.  They make a nice stand when used as a cap.  They are not capable of the same pressure, but if you use a liner and just push you don't need it.



tryanything said:


> I found a few general editing errors.


Reading that I know what I wanted to say but I am not quite sure what the hell came out.  I'll have a look at that after coffee.  I need to update parts to account for the different Stearic Acid we have available to us.


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## Soapboiler (May 20, 2015)

I was poking about on the web for soap mold suggestions, and found this DIY round mold suggestion on Lowe's web site:

http://www.lowes.com/creative-ideas/woodworking-and-crafts/easy-to-make-soap-molds/project

Click on Round Soap Mold to open the instructions.

Basically it's what's been discussed here, but with the added suggestion of lining the inside of the pipe with parchment paper to prevent sticking. That looks interesting.

BTW, if I was going to do much of this, a DIY humongous test-tube style rack, with a wide base, might work to hold the forms during filling.


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## LBussy (May 20, 2015)

Soapboiler said:


> I was poking about on the web for soap mold suggestions, and found this DIY round mold suggestion on Lowe's web site:


I think I've heard that parchment paper wrinkles some as it absorbs some moisture ... not sure about that.

Here's what I put my round molds in, since I have literally tons of them:

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to/fuse-fireworks-mortar-racks.asp


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## nix (May 20, 2015)

Superfat vs lye discount the difference to know

http://curious-soapmaker.com/superfat-vs-lye-discount.html

How to calculate the hot process superfat

http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-calculate-the-hot-process-superfat.html


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## LBussy (May 20, 2015)

nix said:


> Superfat vs lye discount the difference to know


Yes, and that's exactly what I proved out.   I'm not necessarily removing exactly 5% of the sapponifiable oils, but the end result is very nearly the same with much easier math.   If I start with the SAP figured for the total batch at 5% super fat/lye discount, and I end with all the fat that was called for in the recipe back in the pot, it's still 5% super fat/ lye discount.

The only real difference in doing what I'll call the "hard math" versus the easy way I've described, is the possibility that my super fat could be comprised of a bit of my base oils.   With that potential being low (1%) and with the very real fact that CO and Tallow are more easily sapponifiable, I'm willing to "risk it."

Not really sure what you're not understanding.   But, I get no percentage royalty from people believing/understanding me.  Do what you will.   Perhaps rather than making soap you're simply here to argue about it.  If so I suggest you start in the beginners area.


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## boyago (May 20, 2015)

LBussy said:


> I think I've heard that parchment paper wrinkles some as it absorbs some moisture ... not sure about that.
> 
> Here's what I put my round molds in, since I have literally tons of them:
> 
> http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to/fuse-fireworks-mortar-racks.asp



Good point and I miss spoke.  I use freezer paper.  The wax on wax paper can heat and the wax can melt and stick to the mold.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 20, 2015)

Okay, chaps - let's keep things civil.  

When it comes to the superfat (by which I mean added fats after the cook in HP, not a lye discount) there are different views which, at the end of the day, are essentially much of a muchness.  Certainly not enough to warrant lowering our standards of civility.  Veiled attacks dressed up as advice are most certainly included in that.


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## LBussy (May 20, 2015)

boyago said:


> Good point and I miss spoke.  I use freezer paper.  The wax on wax paper can heat and the wax can melt and stick to the mold.


I've only used freezer paper a few times while I've been experimenting with different mold sizes.   I really like the silicone molds, but freezer paper will work with everything.   Didn't realize that about waxed paper but it makes sense.


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## kchaystack (May 20, 2015)

Don't confuse wax paper and parchment paper.  They may look very similar, but parchment is meant to deal with high heat (it is impregnated with silicone).  I have used this several times and not really had a problem with it.  But YMMV.  

I agree wax paper is not a good idea.


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## LBussy (May 20, 2015)

So parchment is okay as well?   I thought I had read somewhere it wrinkled but I could definitely be remembering that wrong.


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## Seawolfe (May 20, 2015)

Parchment IS ok to use, I have used it successfully, and it DOES wrinkle a little if you're molding a "wet" soap. I wouldn't hesitate to use it for HP if that's what I had on hand.


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## LBussy (May 20, 2015)

Seawolfe said:


> Parchment IS ok to use, I have used it successfully, and it DOES wrinkle a little if you're molding a "wet" soap. I wouldn't hesitate to use it for HP if that's what I had on hand.


Thank you for the clarification.  Good to know I was not imagining things ... about that anyway.


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## reinbeau (May 24, 2015)

LBussy said:


> So parchment is okay as well?   I thought I had read somewhere it wrinkled but I could definitely be remembering that wrong.



Parchment does wrinkle.  It just doesn't stick like waxed paper will.


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## AndroiDad75 (May 26, 2015)

Hey Lee, I fell down the rabbit hole.  Been reading and trying to learn.

Question for you.  So with the new "stearic recipe" it looks like you said we could use the original and just reduce the superfat to around 2.5%.  So does that mean we'd want around 11g each of lanolin and shea?


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## LBussy (May 27, 2015)

That might work. Send me your email though and I'll send you a draft of the follow-up article. I've got a brand-new recipe there, well, a reformulated one for the new stearic.


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## IrishLass (Sep 11, 2015)

Just giving this a bump because for the past week or two my son has been using a croap that Lee kindly sent to me made from the newer stearic recipe in this tutorial, and he absolutely loves it. As a testimony to how much he loves it, my hubby was only able to get 2 shaves out of it before our son tried it out and promptly confiscated it for himself. lol In case any of you are wondering what my hubby thought of his brief two shave sessions with it, he said that it's 'really good stuff' (he's not long on words, but he's very honest and always straight to the point). 

So...for all of those wanting to try your hand at making shave soap- this tutorial is a most excellent place to start. I myself will be making a batch of it here pretty soon in order to keep my son in facial suds once Lee's croap runs out. lol


IrishLass


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## rparrny (Sep 11, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> So...for all of those wanting to try your hand at making shave soap- this tutorial is a most excellent place to start. I myself will be making a batch of it here pretty soon in order to keep my son in facial suds once Lee's croap runs out. lol
> IrishLass



Hmm...both my son and my brother use shaving soap.  The main reason I haven't tried it yet is that I don't have a proper mold for it.  I was thinking about pouring the batter into a mug.  
IL...getting me in deeper and deeper...ENABLER!


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## traderbren (Sep 11, 2015)

I've been kicking around a shaving soap. I finally bought the stearic. Only thing left is the KOH, and then I'm on it!


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## IrishLass (Sep 11, 2015)

rparrny said:


> Hmm...both my son and my brother use shaving soap. The main reason I haven't tried it yet is that I don't have a proper mold for it. I was thinking about pouring the batter into a mug.


 
If you make this recipe, you won't necessarily need a "proper" mold since this makes what is known as a 'croap', which is somewhere between a hard puck and a soft soap. Although it's hard enough to retain it's shape quite nicely, the consistency of it remains much like pliable modeling clay which can be squished into any size and shape you desire. I often pour my hot batter into whatever mold I have available, and then once it's set up I just divide it up into portions of a specific weight and then squish one of the portions into my hubby's shave cup whenever he needs more soap. That's not top say you can't use a 'proper' mold if you want to. I've done that as well, but it's not absolutely necessary with croaps.



			
				rparrny said:
			
		

> IL...getting me in deeper and deeper...ENABLER!


 
Who, me? :mrgreen:


IrishLass


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## doriettefarm (Sep 11, 2015)

Thanks for the update IL.  I need to make another batch of shaving croap since my testers have been begging for more.  I will definitely try Lee's new recipe but I'm curious what you think makes it better than the original version.

rparrny - ditto what IL said!  You don't need a mold for the croaps . . . just some parchment or wax paper so you can roll into a log then slice into pucks.  If you want to put the pucks in a container, see what your local dollar store carries that might work.  Mine usually stocks the plastic salsa bowls and ramekins which are the perfect size.

traderbren - get some KOH stat!  You can also make liquid soap using IL's split glycerin method and it's soooo easy (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114) because you don't have to babysit and cook until zapless.


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## not_ally (Sep 11, 2015)

Obsidian (I think it is her, I might be mis-remembering) uses a plastic guacamole mixing bowl from the 99c store as a mold for these.  The kind that look like the bottom half of a mortar and pestle, like the attached pic.

That seems like a great way to get access to the soap and lather it up w/a brush.  Not that I have ever made shaving soap or used a shaving brush, but it seemed like a great idea to someone who knows nothing about the subject 

Actually, after posting that I just realized that it might be more space-saving to use a mug, even if you couldn't squish the brush around as much.


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## IrishLass (Sep 11, 2015)

doriettefarm said:


> Thanks for the update IL. I need to make another batch of shaving croap since my testers have been begging for more. I will definitely try Lee's new recipe but I'm curious what you think makes it better than the original version.


 
Well, I've actually never used or made his original version, so I can't really compare. All I know is that he sent me a croap made via the updated version, which takes into account the different SAP # of LotionCrafter's stearic NF that he used in it, which is a mixture of mostly palmitic acid and myristic acid with a lesser amount of stearic, vs his original stearic from a chemical company which was mostly stearic acid/stearin.  

IrishLass


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## LBussy (Sep 16, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Just giving this a bump because for the past week or two my son has been using a croap that Lee kindly sent to me made from the newer stearic recipe in this tutorial, and he absolutely loves it. As a testimony to how much he loves it, my hubby was only able to get 2 shaves out of it before our son tried it out and promptly confiscated it for himself. lol In case any of you are wondering what my hubby thought of his brief two shave sessions with it, he said that it's 'really good stuff' (he's not long on words, but he's very honest and always straight to the point).


Thank you IL!  That means a lot to come from an experienced soaper.  I have all of what .. a year and a half? under my belt so that makes me a newbie.  I'd never have been as successful without you and the rest here who are so free with advice and findings.

What IL failed to mention is she would not let me send her any without sending me some back, so for about a week straight I used her soap exclusively.  I was very happy to use it, I LOVED the fragrance, and it was just all in all a great experience.  Her soap was very well balanced where I think my own is more crude in it's makeup.  In creating the soap I wanted protection and glide and that's where I really pounded a short list of very specific characteristics.  I did not try to make a "balanced" soap in any way.  Is that the heart of the difference between soaps made by shavers vs soaps made by soapers for shavers?  Who knows.  I do know her soap earned a place in my rotation. 

Yes, we wet shaving enthusiasts have a rotation more often than not.  My wife does not understand.  This morning I used a sadly no longer produced soap called Klar Kabinett.  Probably my favorite all time veg soap including the archetypical Martin de Candre.  It's got a nice rose fragrance that's only there while using the soap.  I generally don't like the smell of roses particularly, but I like it in this.



doriettefarm said:


> Thanks for the update IL.  I need to make another batch of shaving croap since my testers have been begging for more.  I will definitely try Lee's new recipe but I'm curious what you think makes it better than the original version..


The easy answer is "I don't know."  I have suspected for a while that the difference is the KOH vs NaOH/KOH split soap.  I know straight KOH will make a soap "thirstier" than one made from or with NaOH.  If one doesn't have enough water with straight KOH it will be almost sticky.  Get it wet and it's heaven.  I don't base this on any blind testing, careful comparisons, etc..  I just see that the soaps I really like to use are the ones that are all KOH and those I think can be tweaked use NaOH/KOH.  The difference may be all in my head too.

I'm not sure if she sells or not, so I won't share the information from her (very nice!) labels.  I will say her soap has 19 ingredients listed where mine has nine:



> Stearic Acid, Water, Coconut Oil, Potassium Hydroxide, Tallow, Lanolin, Shea Butter, Fragrance, Tetrasodium EDTA



While we both featured stearic acid, hers went a completely different way on the secondary and tertiary oils.   Hers is NaOH predominant with KOH and mine is all KOH.  Looking at her ingredients it's possible the soap needed NaOH to harden too.  Is that why the mix is important?   More testing must be done!  



IrishLass said:


> Well, I've actually never used or made his original version, so I can't really compare. All I know is that he sent me a croap made via the updated version, which takes into account the different SAP # of LotionCrafter's stearic NF that he used in it, which is a mixture of mostly palmitic acid and myristic acid with a lesser amount of stearic, vs his original stearic from a chemical company which was mostly stearic acid/stearin.


I posted my results testing the two side by side.  There was not enough difference either way to call it.


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## SunWolf (Sep 16, 2015)

Bummer, the links in the first post don't work for me.  :-(  Anybody have a current link?


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## LBussy (Sep 16, 2015)

SunWolf said:


> Bummer, the links in the first post don't work for me.  :-(  Anybody have a current link?


I seem to be having some site issues (thank you for letting me know).  I'm on the phone with them right now.


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## SunWolf (Sep 16, 2015)

Thank you, after reading the whole thread, I'm looking forward to checking out your site.


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## TheDragonGirl (Sep 16, 2015)

I've been getting a 500 error since yesterday trying to look at this


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## annalee2003 (Sep 16, 2015)

Links work here for me!

Great information, LBussy. Thank you for everything. 

Honestly I haven't researched shaving soap yet, only because I thought that it was a very complicated process. It looks pretty simple though, can't wait to try it out!


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## LBussy (Sep 16, 2015)

Site is back up.  Here are the links:


The Beginning
Sourcing Tools and Ingredients
Process
A New Wrinkle


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## SunWolf (Sep 16, 2015)

Thank you so much, wonderful read, lots of info to mull over and a new soapie to make!!


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## LBussy (Sep 17, 2015)

Thanks for the kind words.  It's one of those things a new guy had to write down, hoping to help others who may be new to this variety of soap.

So this morning I reached for my RazoRock Lime shave soap.  I always like RazoRock and expected a good shave.  Something didn't like my face this morning so halfway through I washed my face off and reached for IL's soap.   To say her soap saved the day is an understatement.  I will have to dissect the ingredients list on the RR soap to maybe see where it went wrong.


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## AndroiDad75 (Sep 17, 2015)

Hey there Lee.   Find any other great scents for your soap lately?I am finally ready to give it a go and want to make a couple of tins with different scents.


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## IrishLass (Sep 17, 2015)

LBussy said:
			
		

> I'd never have been as successful without you and the rest here who are so free with advice and findings.


 
I could say the same thing about you and the rest of you crazy wet shaving dudes! lol If it weren't for all of you (and DeeAnna and Lindy, too!), I never would have tried to formulate without clay, I never would have thought to use a combo of NaOH/KOH, I never would have used actual stearic acid in my formula- and much more of it than I would ever have even dared to use, I never would have known what a croap is, and my shave formula would not have improved beyond what it used to be to what it is now...........and what it might be fairly soon, because I'm going to try making a test-batch of it with all-KOH. 




			
				LBussy said:
			
		

> What IL failed to mention is she would not let me send her any without sending me some back, so for about a week straight I used her soap exclusively. I was very happy to use it, I LOVED the fragrance, and it was just all in all a great experience. Her soap was very well balanced where I think my own is more crude in it's makeup. In creating the soap I wanted protection and glide and that's where I really pounded a short list of very specific characteristics. I did not try to make a "balanced" soap in any way. Is that the heart of the difference between soaps made by shavers vs soaps made by soapers for shavers? Who knows. I do know her soap earned a place in my rotation.


 
Words like that coming from an experienced, crazy straight razor-using dude like yourself who takes shaving seriously, directed towards someone like me who knows practically _nothing_ about wet shaving and is just going off the feedback I get from my hubby, have given me happy feet and make me want to do a happy dance. 

I don't sell or anything (so posting my ingredients is okay with me), nor do I have any desire to take my enjoyable little hobby to the next level (running a business is not my strong suit, believe you me), but just knowing that my much-tweaked, humble little croap is not only loved by my hubby, but is also considered good enough by a serious, straight-razor, wet shaving dude to have actually earned a space in their rotation amongst their other better-known soaps, is satisfaction enough to last me a very long time indeed, and has given me a happy face to go along with my happy feet. :grin:



			
				LBussy said:
			
		

> So this morning I reached for my RazoRock Lime shave soap. I always like RazoRock and expected a good shave. Something didn't like my face this morning so halfway through I washed my face off and reached for IL's soap. To say her soap saved the day is an understatement. I will have to dissect the ingredients list on the RR soap to maybe see where it went wrong.


 
That's so awesome to hear! Not that the RazoRock irritated your face, mind you (ouch!), but that my croap was able to ride in and save your day. You'll have to let us know what you think the offending ingredient might have been. 




			
				AndroiDad75 said:
			
		

> Hey there Lee. Find any other great scents for your soap lately?I am finally ready to give it a go and want to make a couple of tins with different scents.


 
I'm not Lee, but the croap I sent to Lee was scented with the Barbershop 1920's FO from Rustic Escentuals (which he said he loved). I must say that I highly second his opinion. It truly smells awesome and makes this lass go a little weak in the knees to smell it on her man. It's so awesome to me in fact, that I've been sneaking some of the aftershave I made with it for my hubby and have been using it as an after-shower splash on myself. Shhhhh:shh: I hope that doesn't give you the impression that it's a girly scent, mind you, because it's really not- it's just one of those scents that's made for a man, but women like it too.


IrishLass


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## DapperDan (Sep 17, 2015)

Unfortunately looks like the link is still not working.


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## LBussy (Sep 17, 2015)

DapperDan said:


> Unfortunately looks like the link is still not working.


It is, but the server is a dog.  I'm in the middle of moving a few sites that actually make me money.  This one will go soon.



AndroiDad75 said:


> Hey there Lee.   Find any other great scents for your soap lately?I am finally ready to give it a go and want to make a couple of tins with different scents.


I liked quite a few of the ones IL sent.  I'll post my notes when I sit still for a while.


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## IrishLass (Sep 18, 2015)

I've been playing with Bay (pimento racemosa) EO that I got from Mtn. Rose Herbs and the Barbershop 1920's FO from Rustic Escentuals, and they are smelling fantastic together!


IrishLass


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## LBussy (Sep 18, 2015)

AndroiDad75 said:


> Hey there Lee.   Find any other great scents for your soap lately?I am finally ready to give it a go and want to make a couple of tins with different scents.


IL sent me a pile of sniffs, here's what I took away:

•   *Stud, Nature's Garden - Good, smells like Polo with some fruit?
•   *The Perfect Man, Nature's Garden - Similar to Stud, heavier, maybe vanilla. Some pineapple maybe?  Would be a nice men's bar soap.
•   Salty Sailor, Daystar - Sea-breeze, light, crisp. 
•   Paradise, Daystar - To me this smelled like everything I don't like about Citronella unfortunately.
•   Masculine Musk, Sweetcakes - Lighter musk, maybe good for soap. Cool water + musk?
•   Midsummer Night, Wholesale Supplies Plus - Incense like, sandalwood, patchouli?  Maybe a candle scent.
•   Northwoods, Sweetcakes - Piney. No go for me. 
•   *Santa's Pipe, Sweetcakes - Nice tobacco.  MUST like tobacco to like this one.
•   *Ahoy Matey, Daystar - Soap fragrance to my nose, "Green" like an Irish Spring-ish scent + the ocean and maybe some woody scents.  Not the same as, but in the same class as Sir Irisch Moos.
•   *Old Spice, Oregon Trails - Floral/fruity spice, typical vanilla base.  Does seem very close to the old Old Spice.
•   *Barber Shop 1920's, Rustic Escentuals - Very nice, balanced, not overly powdery like some.​
Bullets are not working in lists apparently, I did what I could.  The asterisks are the ones I think I will be trying.

Okay, I've migrated the website to the new server - it will not be so painfully slow anymore.  I apologize to those of you who persevered, and to those who could not get in.  Here are the links again so you do not have to go a-hunting:


The Beginning
Sourcing Tools and Ingredients
Process


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## DapperDan (Sep 19, 2015)

Thanks a bunch! Can't wait to try this soap.


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## AndroiDad75 (Oct 18, 2015)

Lee, or anyone really... 

Have you run across a Sandalwood scent that is the same as the Art of Shaving Sandalwood? 

I like the idea of an Irisch Moos scent,  even though I haven't ever smelled SIM.


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## LBussy (Oct 18, 2015)

I have not, I've actually never tried AoS.  I just won't spend that kind of money for soap. 

I have been thinking of having SiM duped.  Not done it yet.  It's not available that I know of.


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## AndroiDad75 (Oct 18, 2015)

It's one of the best Sandalwood scents I've ever had.   I got into wet shaving with an AOS Sandalwood cream kit from my wife. 

Are you talking about getting the scent duped? I am not sure what that entails,  but if so I'd be interested in helping get that done.   Let me know...


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## IrishLass (Oct 18, 2015)

You've got me curious as to what this particular sandalwood smells like. I may have to pop in at my local AoS shop and request a sample (there's one in my local mall). 

I recently made 2 sandalwood blends for my son that he's totally in love with. I haven't made them into aftershave for him yet (will be doing that this week), but he loves how they smell OOB. He came up with the idea for the blends himself after smelling a bunch of my FOs.

Blend 1:

6 parts The Perfect Man from Nature'sGarden
1 part Sandalwood FO from SaveOnScents (extreme concentration)
1 part Bay Racemosa EO from Mtn. Rose Herbs
1 part Cedar & Saffron FO from Brambleberry

and

6 parts Barbershop 1920's from Rustic Escentuals
3 parts Christmas Tree FO from Majestic Mountain Sage (he wanted pine in it, and it was the closest thing to straight-up pine I had on hand) 
2 parts Sandalwood FO from SaveOnScents (extreme concentration)

Anyway- they've been steeping/blending for about 3 weeks now and they both smell real nice. Even though the sandalwood is a small part of both blends, it's pretty weighty and makes its presence known in no uncertain terms, but it in a really pleasant, mellow way.


IrishLass


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## AndroiDad75 (Oct 22, 2015)

Well let us know how yours turns out and also what you think of the Art of Shaving version when you smell it.


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## IrishLass (Oct 24, 2015)

Well, I was able to smell the Art of Shaving sandalwood this evening. Hubby and I went out to eat at the mall and we made a quick stop in at the AoS shop on the way to the restaurant. I ended up squirting a couple of pumps of the sandalwood lotion on my hands from their sample bottle and have been sniffing it all night (it's been a few hours since we left the mall and my hands still smell of it). As an aside- I couldn't believe how expensive everything was in there! I was thinking of buying a bottle of the sandalwood lotion, but when I saw the price I nearly had a conniption. lol 

Anyway, when we came home (empty-handed except for the smell on my hands) I got out my bottle of Sandalwood FO, Sandalwood Vanilla FO, as well as a few other scents and commenced blending while I could still smell the lotion on my hands to compare. To my nose, the AoS sandalwood smelled strongly of sandalwood mixed with something pine-ish or woodsy. 

For what it's worth, the best blend I have going right now is 6 drops of my Sandalwood Vanilla from TSW and 1 drop of Christmas Tree from MMS. Wow- it smells pretty dang close to both me and my hubby, but it's still early yet. I'm going to let it stew overnight and see if it smells as good to my nose tomorrow.

IrishLass


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## AndroiDad75 (Oct 24, 2015)

Thanks IL!   I appreciate your trying to dupe it.   Was it a scent you and your hubby liked?   The expense part is what keeps it out of my range.   If I hadn't of gotten the starter kit as a gift,  I wouldn't have ever known... Lol


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## LBussy (Oct 24, 2015)

Thanks for sharing IL.  It's a popular scent for sure.  I'd like to try it but I can scent pounds and pounds of my soap for that price.


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## snappyllama (Oct 24, 2015)

It's a really nice sandalwood. At those prices, maybe they are actually using the EO? That's what it says on their site. At $125+ an ounce, it's out of my league. Also, I wouldn't feel right about using it - considering the several species of the trees are endangered.


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## AndroiDad75 (Nov 1, 2015)

Hey Lee,  didn't you have a cherry scent too? What scent did you use for that one?


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## LBussy (Nov 1, 2015)

AndroiDad75 said:


> Hey Lee,  didn't you have a cherry scent too? What scent did you use for that one?


That was Soapalooza Almond Cherry I think. Was definitely them and was definitely cherry/almond.  It was nice because it tempered both scents and gave them a little something extra.

If I still had some I might even be tempted to mix that with almond to temper the cherry just a little more.


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## AndroiDad75 (Nov 1, 2015)

I thought it was something other than almond and cherry.   I thought it was double cherry something... I saw it on B&B.   It was a while ago,  so I'll try to find it.


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## LBussy (Nov 2, 2015)

AndroiDad75 said:


> I thought it was something other than almond and cherry.   I thought it was double cherry something... I saw it on B&B.   It was a while ago,  so I'll try to find it.


I called one "Cherry Bomb" but it was not a straight cherry.  Unless you find I said something else and then that's what I did.  I hate getting old.


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## AndroiDad75 (Nov 2, 2015)

Yeah,  that was it.   Cherry Bomb.   So,  was that the soapalooza scent?


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## LBussy (Nov 2, 2015)

AndroiDad75 said:


> Yeah,  that was it.   Cherry Bomb.   So,  was that the soapalooza scent?


Yes sir.  Almond really enhances it - not sure you would know it was in there by just smelling it.


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## AndroiDad75 (Nov 2, 2015)

Awesome.   Thank you sir.   I am thinking about doing a couple of scents.   I'd like to find a scent my wife would like,  and get her using the shaving soap too.   I thought maybe that would be a good one. 

Also,  remember if you explore duping the Sir Irisch Moos,  let me know if I can help.


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## LBussy (Dec 5, 2015)

I thought I would report on a refinement I made.  The basic recipe was just that - basic.  This time I used TiO2, SL, and EDTA.  


3.96% Sodium Lactate
0.79% EDTA
0.50% Titanium Dioxide
All percentages of oil weight.

The SL, EDTA, and the 11% glycerin already in the recipe were added to the lye water.  The TiO2 was mixed in with the superfat at the end.  The Ti smoothed out the color quite a bit.  It's not white but definitely more opaque than it was previously.

I have to say the SL really made a HUGE difference both to the soap hot and cooled.  While hot it was cream of wheat consistency and flowed very nicely.  When cooled it was a lot harder - easily as hard as a puck using Sodium Hydroxide.  So there's that if someone needs it.

I did some tests after cooking and there was no soap film, I always have some with my water with my regular soap.  so that worked.

I have not shaved with it, will do that in a few weeks.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 6, 2015)

I've been using the Haslinger Schafsmilch and I notice a lot more scum than with my soap with sodium citrate added. With the lather we generate, that can end up being a lot of scum


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## mymy (Dec 6, 2015)

I added Citric Acid into my lye solution and it reacted and formed 'salt' like residue resided in the bottom. 5.5g of CA with extra 3.84g extra NaOH were added into lye solution.  Is it normal? I strained the 'salt'  out though.


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## LBussy (Dec 6, 2015)

mymy said:


> I added Citric Acid into my lye solution and it reacted and formed 'salt' like residue resided in the bottom. 5.5g of CA with extra 3.84g extra NaOH were added into lye solution.  Is it normal? I strained the 'salt'  out though.


Maybe DeeAnna or someone else more versed in chemistry will chime in here on this, but here's my hypothesis.  Sodium Citrate is ridiculously soluble in water at an almost 1:1 ratio.  Your precipitate is almost assuredly not citric acid.

What can it be then?  It depends.  I see two possibilities:


If the source of Citric acid you are using is impure, calcium citrate may be a contaminant.
If you are using tap water then you are causing the citrate to do what it is supposed to do and chelate the calcium and magnesium in the water creating calcium and magnesium citrate.  
Calcium citrate is not all that soluble in water at 0.85 g/L so this is likely your culprit.  In order to assure you have all of the citrate you intend, use distilled water to make soap and/or get a more pure form of citric acid.

If for some reason you cannot use distilled water and/or a better source of citric acid, you can make some measurements to account for it in an exact manner.  The process should seem obvious if you are familiar with how it would be done.  If not, it's likely not something you should attempt.  You can continue to filter out the crystals and maybe add a touch more citric acid to the solution (with the corresponding addition of lye) in order to make up for the "loss."


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## LBussy (Dec 6, 2015)

I thought I would show a pic of the difference between soap with SL and Ti and without:

With (this is my "keeper" portion, the others look nicer):







Without:






A pretty big difference.  Now I have my suspicions about salts made with sodium rather than potassium ... but the shave will be the proof.


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