# Who's right?



## LilyJo (Apr 3, 2017)

Hi everyone

I wonder if you can settle an argument for me!

We have been making and selling our soap for a couple of years. I love the science of soap making, I love the creativity, the unexpectedness of not always knowing what you are going to get. I love experimenting and coming up with new ideas and seeing what everyuone else does.

But, shhh, say it very quietly but I dont actually like bar soap. I never use it, neither does my son or daughter. If we have bars in the bathrooms I end up throwing them away as they just get forgotten about. The only people I know who actually like and will buy bar soap are my elderly parents.

Anyone else I know will buy a bar of soap for their mum or aunt at Christmas or birthday but they never buy it for themselves, they always use liquid soap (as do we).

On top of this I have seen in the past week a couple of things saying that liquid soaps outsell bar soaps by something like 8 - 1 worldwide and industry commentators seem to think that those numbers will just increase further. Plus, given the massive explosion in hobby soapers the market is so saturated its getting harder and harder to find a niche.

So, the argument that we have been having is whether we should carry on making/selling bar soaps that we dont use ourselves or should we explore other products including liquid or cream soaps.

Really interested in what others think and how you feel about your soap, what do you use yourself?

Lx


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## Scooter (Apr 3, 2017)

I really do not see this as a right/wrong kind of question in general. I mean, it depends on what your ultimate goal is and what your specific market is like. Have you done some very thorough market research for the market you are selling to? 

It sounds like you have been successfully selling bar soap for two years. One approach might be to just gradually introduce liquid soaps and see how your customers respond.


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## toxikon (Apr 3, 2017)

I don't see the downside to expanding your line-up to include LS and see how it affects sales. I love using bar soap - I can't get enough of it. But if you don't enjoy it, then maybe focusing more on LS would be a good thing to try.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 3, 2017)

LilyJo said:


> But, shhh, say it very quietly but I dont actually like bar soap. I never use it, neither does my son or daughter.


:lolno:    Lily Jo, you win the Giggle of the Day award! Thanks!


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## DeeAnna (Apr 3, 2017)

Commercial liquid cleanser is not actually soap. It's a synthetic detergent blend. If you like it, use it, by all means. Be aware that liquid cleansers have a different skin feel than liquid soap. And cream soap is another animal entirely -- a cream soap is often used as base when making secondary products such as scrubs and shave soaps.

I use liquid soap, but I don't sell it. The handcrafted soap sellers who do sell LS usually report that it doesn't sell as well for them. The profit margin is lower -- the added packaging cost offsets the savings from selling a product that is largely water. My guess is that the market for handcrafted liquid soap is going to be more viable if wholesaling or doing larger scale retail, rather than selling at shows, fairs, small stores, and such.


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## LilyJo (Apr 3, 2017)

I think the whole "liquid" soap thing is part of why I am reluctant (that and I actually love making soap I just dont like using it - am I weird??). 

So much of what you can buy isnt truly soap but given that any REAL liquid soap would need challenge testing (and all the costs involved in that) I have always been reluctant to go down that route.

I know there is a market for liquid soap and for other products I guess I am wondering how those of you who sell feel about the industry in general and where it is going?  Do you feel that the market has reached saturation point? Or is it going to be like, say, cake making, where there is always room for a small artisan bakery?

Or perhaps I am just having a crisis of confidence or not enough wine - either could be true!


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## DeeAnna (Apr 3, 2017)

I don't have any feedback for you -- I don't sell enough to have a perspective. I recommend you ask Carolyn (cmzaha) for her point of view. She's been selling for many years and has a good head on her shoulders. I'm sure there are others, but Carolyn's name is the only one that comes to mind at the moment.

I do think ... speaking just as a consumer ... that if I saw liquid soap for sale at a vendor's booth, I would probably pass it by unless the staff person made a very good case for why that particular item would solve a pressing need of mine. When I buy things at a craft fair or farmer's market, I'm looking for something that has a "handmade cachet." Liquid soap in a plastic bottle just doesn't have the right vibe.


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## Dahila (Apr 3, 2017)

I am selling soap on market for the last two years, and it is opposite, my awesome LS (thanks to Irishlass and Susie), does not sell when the bars do,  My average is 10 bars. Sometimes more,  Returning customers tend to buy 4 or more  so LS does not sell, I sold 2 bottles and the price is low....... bars do


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## DeeAnna (Apr 3, 2017)

I think that the underlying question -- should you make and sell something you don't personally use? -- is worth talking about too. Lenarenee recently started a thread about pretty much the same thing -- http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=62997

I own a business making gift items and home decor for retail and wholesale clients. I also do custom projects for people. I personally do not have one single item in my home that I sell -- what I do for my job is largely separate from my personal life. It's a long story why I ended up with this business, but the point I'd like to make here is that I am rewarded by what I do and it doesn't matter that I don't use what I make. It's the work itself that is fulfilling. And, honestly, when I worked for Corporate America, the same was also true. The products I helped to manufacture were nothing I particularly wanted to use. 

I don't see any particular problem with not using your own soap if you are sufficiently rewarded by making the soap. If you didn't like making it, then, yeah, you're in the wrong biz.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 3, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> I use liquid soap, but I don't sell it. The handcrafted soap sellers who do sell LS usually report that it doesn't sell as well for them. The profit margin is lower -- the added packaging cost offsets the savings from selling a product that is largely water.


Ditto. I have found that to be true of my soaping buddies and my wholesale costumers that sell soap.


LilyJo said:


> Or perhaps I am just having a crisis of confidence or not enough wine - either could be true!


Ya got me again! Giggle worthy for sure. This wins Second Prize award for Giggle of the Day


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## BattleGnome (Apr 3, 2017)

LilyJo said:


> Anyone else I know will buy a bar of soap for their mum or aunt at Christmas or birthday but they never buy it for themselves, they always use liquid soap (as do we).



(Generic "I don't sell" disclaimer) 

I think part of this is the media is now teaching us that we want/need liquid soap-like products. I could not tell you the last time I saw a commercial for bar soap that wasn't a vintage ad on YouTube. Every tv show I've seen recently has a commercial for some sort of body wash or cleanser. 

Speaking for myself, I used to use body washes because that's what was advertised to me. If you walk into a store there are full aisles of body washes in all the varieties/scents you could want and maybe 3-4 options for bar soap in all of the health/beauty section. I don't know the numbers on supply vs demand but the current media choice is clear.

All that being said, why do you like your body wash? Is it one you've made or is it purchased? If you made it, sell it. You have personal experience that it's a good product. If you purchase your body wash, why? Do you prefer skin feel? Price? Packaging? Habit? Use that information to decide if it is worth it to you to add another product to your line.

(Without an analysis, my vote is to slowly introduce a liquid hand soap to gauge reaction. I prefer liquid soap at the bathroom sink for convenience but refuse to purchase from the store because of skin feel. I prefer the skin feel of what I make over what I can get at the store)


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## Susie (Apr 3, 2017)

I strongly suggest that you make and USE YOUR OWN liquid soap for all the purposes you are using "store bought liquid soap" (actually synthetic detergents as mentioned by DeeAnna).  Then you will know if you are interested in trying to sell it.  My feeling is that you are so accustomed to the syndets that you will be sorely disappointed in the true soap.  I LOVE my hand made liquid soap, but I know that it is not everyone's cup of tea.


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## WeaversPort (Apr 3, 2017)

LilyJo said:


> But, shhh, say it very quietly but I dont actually like bar soap. I never use it, neither does my son or daughter. If we have bars in the bathrooms I end up throwing them away as they just get forgotten about. The only people I know who actually like and will buy bar soap are my elderly parents.



Until recently, I didn't use bar soap because nearly every bar soap I tried from the store made my skin itch. I only used body wash with a high moisturizing content advertised; because I figured soap was soap and my skin got dry and itchy easily. It wasn't until I discovered what bar soap _could be_, and now I love it!! 

So I agree that some of the use of body washes and things is because people can get stuff that smells like papaya and are advertised chock full of vitamin E or shea butter, or whatever. But with the fact that now you can make milk and honey papaya soap, or whatever, it's an opportunity to introduce people to soap and art together. 



LilyJo said:


> On top of this I have seen in the past week a couple of things saying that liquid soaps outsell bar soaps by something like 8 - 1 worldwide and industry commentators seem to think that those numbers will just increase further. Plus, given the massive explosion in hobby soapers the market is so saturated its getting harder and harder to find a niche.
> 
> So, the argument that we have been having is whether we should carry on making/selling bar soaps that we dont use ourselves or should we explore other products including liquid or cream soaps.



Do something you love, it gets you through the times when business is going sideways - because business will always go sideways at some point or another. The beauty industry as a whole is saturated, and that's whether you are making soap, body scrubs, or all natural lotions. Anything water based will likely require cosmetic testing to determine bacteria and preservative rates. You could, however, decide you want to go on a huge scale and resale. You could go with a company who will produce your body wash for you, and just package it with your personal labeling. The manufacturer then splits things like insurance and testing across all of their customers - and they're just putting people's special touches and labels on. 

But this ends up being a business strategy decision. On a scale with outsourcing production like that, you would need to look at manufacturing costs very closely and be aware of the markup for your vendors. How many product lines would you have? One body wash that comes out produced ex-factory for $3, might resale at $6, and your vendor would want to be able to sell it for $12. Would the market support $12 for a bottle of liquid soap? It would depend on the branding, the size, the demographic, the placement.. Or do you try and sell all liquid soap for $8 and buffer your profits in a less expensive line to produce? Could you sell twice as much of your bottle that is  ex-factory $1.50 from the manufacturer, to not lose much on the line that is ex-factory $3 from the manufacturer. 


TL;DR
You start getting into some pretty serious funding or scaling decisions with liquid soap, so you need to know what you're aiming for in the outset: do you want to be the humming cottage industry or do you want to compete with Lush (for example) in the global market selling $1M in order to make $100k profit? Are you aiming for seed capital for in-house batching, or aiming for owning international storefronts?


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## cmzaha (Apr 4, 2017)

For me selling liquid soap is not worth the effort . I always have a jug for the couple customers I have that want it. In my seven years of selling is people will  if I have LS because they do not see it at my booth. It is simply an excuse not to purchase. I just cannot sell enough. Most of my customers buy soap for themselves especially my men customers. Men are my largest clientile. You need to cater to your customer base. Also it is hard to sell products you do not like or passionate about. I am not one of the sellers that thinks handmade soap is the great cure all. I just love my soap and love making it


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## lenarenee (Apr 4, 2017)

Lily those stats you have are comparing sales between commercial liquid washes/soaps and commercial soap bars, right?  Not a comparison between people who buy commercial liquid and handmade bars?  That may explain the "apples and oranges" responses you're getting.

If you need a sales pitch - you could go into the environmental cost of all those plastic bottles - even recycling them take quite a bit of energy, or how those bath poofs so many people use are wonderful for growing bacteria, mold and fungi - so switch to bar soap!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 4, 2017)

What do your customers do?  Do they buy the bars?  If so, stopping making them would be bad business, obviously.  Do people ask for liquid soap?  Have you given samples of liquid soap which received positive feedback?  

Forget what the "industry" says - listen to your customers.  The UK market for drinks tells us the smoothies FELL to 0.9m litres a year, compared to 6,380m litres for carbonated drinks.  Just because the majority do one thing, does not mean that doing something else will not be successful.  Are the people who are buying all of this commercial bodywash ever going to buy some hand made products like yours, even if it was made with detergents etc?


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## dixiedragon (Apr 4, 2017)

IMO bar soap is superior from an environmental standpoint. You don't have the extra packaging of the bottle, plus you are getting 100% (or close to it) soap vs a product that is mostly water. For those reasons it is also a better value.

So many people are interested in fewer artificial ingredients, less packaging, etc. I think the pendulum is starting to swing the other way.

I much prefer bar soap. It is a multi-sensory experience that liquid just can't match. The color of the bar, the scent, the feel of the bar itself, the feel of the lather.


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## LilyJo (Apr 4, 2017)

I just wanted to say thank you all so much.

You have all raised some really interesting points, made articulately and with some real knowleddge.  Thats what I needed, to get feedback from other people in different markets who have a different perspective.

Its really interesting, I do LOVE making soap and bath products, it satisfies some deep creative need I have and it makes me happy.  But I was feeling really guilty that I love what I make but never use it. I love some of the comments you all made about the advantages and disadvantages and tbh I hadnt even thought of it in those terms which is pretty stupid, as its so obvious.

I think I need to find a recipe that works for me - even if its something I never sell but that I love and want to use everyday. Something that might be using stupidly expensive oils but that makes my very sensitive skin happy!

So many comments that are worthy of commenting, so just a few - 

Dixie - hadnt thought of it as being multi sensory, what a great point and something to mull over

TEG - your analogy of the drinks industry hit home.  No one ever said, "tell you what we wont bring out a new drink, theres already loads".  The market is huge and vastly complicated, as is the beauty industry.

Lenarenee - good point, yes 8-1 stats are commercial liquid soaps to commercial bar soaps, bit of a lightbulb moment of course the stats are different for handmade soap Doh!

Everyone else, thank you, thank you thank you. You have given me so much to think about but in a much more constructive positive way and I really cant thank you enough.

Lxx


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## dixiedragon (Apr 4, 2017)

Lily, I'm curious - what do you like about liquid soaps more than bar soaps? My brother is like that - he is a liquid soap and shower gel guy. He doesn't give me a reason he just "likes them better."

Of course, recently he informed me that he bought Dial at the grocery store. Meanwhile the gorgeous camo swirled bar of soap on his desk is full of holes b/c he uses it to hold pencils.

Little brothers are dumb.


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## earlene (Apr 4, 2017)

As a US American traveling in England in the mid-1990's I was surprised to see the predominate use of LS dispensers in showers in hotels & B&B across your nation.  At the time, and even now, that was never the norm in the US, not in hotels, B&B's or even private homes.  The only time I've actually seen an LS dispenser in a private home in the US, I was so surprised to see it, and it was also empty, so I have no idea how long it was even used (once & never re-filled, or often-used and then the people moved and just left it there when they left the house?)

My experience with those detergent liquid 'soaps' stems from hospital use beginning in the last century in the US.  I hated, and still hate that stuff.  I hate the smell of it.  I hate the feel of it.  I hate the lingering smell on my hands after I used it. I hate how repeated use of it makes my hands dry and cracked.  Except in very rare circumstanced I will absolutely not use LS in any public restroom in airports, gas stations, department stores, etc. and when I do, I always regret it for the aforementioned reasons.  I am better off using plain water and friction if I don't happen to have some alternative with me in my purse.

The other hospital experience with LS is that our Infection Control Nurse told us numerous times that home-use LS dispensers had to washed thoroughly between EVERY refill because studies showed that pathogenic growth occurred in the dispensers when not properly washed between refills*.  And that was with the the standard 'anti-microbial' liquid detergent soaps that were being sold back then.  Given my personal anathema to commercial detergent LS and what the ICN taught us, I just never jumped on the LS band wagon.

But obviously many people did.  My MIL and many of her friends from the Silent Generation apparently have embraced LS over bar soap.  And apparently more US Millennials prefer LS to bar soap according to a market study reported in 2016 (Mintel).  The report says it is because the consumers making this choice do so because it is more convenient.  To me this makes no sense.  I don't find LS more convenient.  

I also don't find LS to be globally sustainable simply due to the packaging needs, and IMO that's an even better reason to use bar soap over LS, but a case can be made for using re-usable bottles and so forth.  Still, I don't like LS for personal hygiene purposes anyway, so I probably won't favor it no matter what.

So basically, I'd say there are regional as well as generational and probably educational and other factors, like advertising that go into who and why your customers may want LS.   I believe all these factors influence why certain products sell better than others.  For me advertising might influence a one-time purchase, but it plays very little in my long-term use of a product.  For me it has more to do with my personal preference and availability.  If LS was all that is available, and I didn't know how to make my own bar soap, I guess I would have to bow to the supply factor, but I wouldn't be happy.

~ ~ ~ ~ 

*There are numerous studies as recent as this decade that still report similar findings of pathogens in re-fillable LS dispensers, even in hospitals.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3126420/
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0080-62342011000100021&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en
http://www.cmmonline.com/articles/231966-danger-in-the-soap-dispenser
http://handwashingforlife.com/files/gerba_gojo_poster.pdf


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## artemis (Apr 4, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> Little brothers are dumb.



That's what I tell my "little" brother all the time!


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## dixiedragon (Apr 4, 2017)

I agree with Earlene - I don't see how liquid soap is more convenient, except in the bathroom of a business. It actually makes sense to me to see liquid vs bar soap in a hotel - because each bar gets about 4 uses and is then thrown away. So I think a liquid soap dispenser in that situation would actually save money and cause less waste. I don't care for even re-usable liquid soap dispensers in the home because they aren't that well made and they aren't particularly long lasting. Plus then you buy the little bottle of LS at the store, which probably includes a pump also, pour it into your container and then throw it away. 

I like to buy pretty saucers or even crystal dishes at estate sales and put a bar of soap in there in each bathroom. Crystal is not "in" right now so you can get lovely crystal for CHEAP at estate sales, while the old metal tool box is $25 or more.

Also, liquid soap is not more convenient for travel. You have to worry about that container leaking and getting liquid soap all over everything. I have an old cough drop tin (.25 at a thrift store) that I keep a shampoo bar in (from LUSH, I confess) and that servers as soap and shampoo when I travel.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 4, 2017)

The people I know who don't like to use bar soap perceive liquid cleanser as not being as messy as bar soap/cleanser. An acquaintance of mine recoiled when I offered to give her some of my soap to try. Nope, she was NOT going to use bar soap, no way, no how.  I also read a blogger post in the past day or so where the author ranted on about having to break her fingernails to pry a bar of soap off the side of her sink where it had dried in place. (Eww. Apparently she never heard of a soap dish, hey?) 

They also see liquid cleansers as being more sanitary. But Earlene brings up a very good point -- dispensers, especially the refillable ones, can grow ickies really easily if not cleaned out and sanitized well. And that's even with preservative in the cleanser itself -- it's the dispenser and dirty fingers that provide the microbes, and the cooties grow on the slight film of cleanser that clings to the dispenser surfaces. So the sanitary issue isn't entirely correct, but there's that perception.


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## LilyJo (Apr 4, 2017)

Thinking about generational or cultural imfluences, my parents dont use liquid shower gel etc (they use bar soaps) but they do have hand wash at the sinks in the kitchen and bathroom. But for as long as I can remember everyone I know has used LS, which kind of echoes what Earlene says.

If you stay in a hotel or guest house these days most of the time they will have a LS dispenser screwed to the wall, I cant remember the last time they had a bar of guest soap. I think smaller boutique type places may have soap but most of the places I stay in for work moved to LS years and years ago. I never use them when I go I always take my own as whatever they have will invariably contain SLS which doesnt agree with me at all.

I think you may be right especially given the growing awareness of the use of palm as well as the pressure from the vegan/vegetarian/cruelty free lobbies - the plastic usage is hard to justify when you compare it to the minimal packaging that can be used for a bar of soap.

In response to dixie, I guess its simply that I have never found a bar soap that didnt leave my skin tacky or irritated. I have very sensitive skin and can only use water on my face; I cannot use SLS or SLES in bath products at all but weirdly my hair struggles without SLS! My son has had severe eczema his whole life and we have always had to be careful - I wish I knew when he was born everthing I know now about chemicals and additives, I could have heloed him so much sooner!

On the upside, I have just tested one of my new recipe bars out (its had  a four week cure) and it lathered so much better that the last one  (same recipe but different fragrance and colour) that I have high hopes  for its future! Even my son commented that his skin felt 'normal' after washing his hands - high praise indeed!


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 4, 2017)

LilyJo said:


> On the upside, I have just tested one of my new recipe bars out (its had  a four week cure) and it lathered so much better that the last one  (same recipe but different fragrance and colour) that I have high hopes  for its future! Even my son commented that his skin felt 'normal' after washing his hands - high praise indeed!


HIP HIP HOORAY! :clap:​


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## cherrycoke216 (Apr 5, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> Of course, recently he informed me that he bought Dial at the grocery store. Meanwhile the gorgeous camo swirled bar of soap on his desk is full of holes b/c he uses it to hold pencils.
> 
> Little brothers are dumb.




He LOVES you and your soap SO MUCH he couldn't bring himself to use it and let it MELT DOWN the DRAIN. So he decided to use it as a medium of INSTALLATION ART!!!   
Maybe bombarded him with overabundance of soap, so he start using it as soap or another installation art? (Hint)

Thanks everyone for the food for thought, especially Earlene on the contamination of liquid soap. I have read/slide through it. Wondering if any microbiologist had done research on bar soaps? Haha!!!


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## BattleGnome (Apr 5, 2017)

I did happen across a click bait article about soap being dirty. The author concluded that you wash the soap before you use it and the dirt desnt matter.


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## Susie (Apr 5, 2017)

cherrycoke216 said:


> He LOVES you and your soap SO MUCH he couldn't bring himself to use it and let it MELT DOWN the DRAIN. So he decided to use it as a medium of INSTALLATION ART!!!
> Maybe bombarded him with overabundance of soap, so he start using it as soap or another installation art? (Hint)
> 
> Thanks everyone for the food for thought, especially Earlene on the contamination of liquid soap. I have read/slide through it. Wondering if any microbiologist had done research on bar soaps? Haha!!!



I just last week read an article (and unfortunately I can't remember where right now) comparing the amount of germs on a bar of soap to the part you touch of  a typical soap dispenser in the hospital setting (where the entire bag and dispenser of the soap were changed out each time).  They were about equal.  The amount of germs on the hands was about equal if the soap was not a foam.  If the soap was a foam, the amount of germs left on the hands was more.  The article's conclusion was to use two squirts of foam soap to achieve the same results.


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## earlene (Apr 5, 2017)

cherrycoke216 said:


> Thanks everyone for the food for thought, especially Earlene on the contamination of liquid soap. I have read/slide through it. Wondering if any microbiologist had done research on bar soaps? Haha!!!



Yes, as a matter of fact.  It was part of what lead hospitals to move from bar soap to liquid soap here in the US last century.  But as BattleGnome and Susie mention, it's not as glaringly horrendous as was believed back then.  But in the hospital setting contamination was & still is a serious concern, hence the major shift.  Plus bar soap was deemed far messier sink-side.

Here is an abstract from 1988. If you click on the links, you can read the full article/report on their findings.  It references the first such study published in 1965 and points out that the spread of micro-organisms via bar soap is far less likely than originally believed.

Another article published by NPR addresses the 'bacterial' contamination of soap and the fact that it can still get you clean.  That article is referencing the very same study from 1988 in my first link.  (Notice the study comes from 1988, but the NPR article was published in 2015.  Interesting, huh?)

And this article from the Huffington Post in 2014 addresses the same issue and makes the same recommendations we make to all our 'customers' (be they gifted customers or paying customers) to help soap last longer with the addition of rinsing the soap after use before putting it onto the soap 'dish' that allows it to dry completely.  The cited expert is an internationally renowned nurse, professor of epidemiology who consults with the World Health Organization, as well as a lengthy resume in Infection Control, research, etc. and has done studies and published numerous articles and contributed to textbooks on epidemiological topics.

ETA:   This may address what Suzie mentioned, although it is probably not the same article she actually read. In a small study published in the American Journal of Infection Control this year, it was found that foam soaps are less effective than liquid soaps when used in a certain way, which may have lead to the article Suzie read saying using 2 squirts instead of one might alleviate the problem.  The study does not, in fact make that recommendation, but states further studies using larger sample sizes are indicated.  

There may have been other studies, but my search parameters didn't pull them up at this time.  I am thinking I must have left out a pertinent word or two in order to pull up some reference to the article or a study on the issues Suzie mentioned, but sometimes I can't find something at first.  Maybe Suzie will recall at some point.  I know I would certainly find it interesting to read.


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## dixiedragon (Apr 5, 2017)

cherrycoke216 said:


> He LOVES you and your soap SO MUCH he couldn't bring himself to use it and let it MELT DOWN the DRAIN. So he decided to use it as a medium of INSTALLATION ART!!!
> Maybe bombarded him with overabundance of soap, so he start using it as soap or another installation art? (Hint)
> 
> Thanks everyone for the food for thought, especially Earlene on the contamination of liquid soap. I have read/slide through it. Wondering if any microbiologist had done research on bar soaps? Haha!!!


 
You are giving him WAY too much credit. He actually doesn't get much soap from me b/c he says, "No thanks, I only use liquid soap and shower gel." The camo bar was part of a special manly batch with a manly scent that I was SURE would tempt him to try it. NOPE.


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