# Soap breaking and crumbling,please help!



## harveybw (Jul 23, 2015)

Hi

I'm hoping someone can tell me where I am going wrong:-? I have been making soap for a few years with no problems. I usually make honey soap as it's just for my family and that's our favourite. Anyway we moved house just over a year ago and since then I can't seem to make soap! Every time I make a batch it just breaks and crumbles when I try to cut it and I can't seem to figure out what I'm doing wrong! I haven't changed the recipe and I've even bought new oils to make sure it wasn't that. I also use filtered water

Here is my recipe, any advice would be most welcome

Olive oil 300g
Palm oil 300g
Coconut oil 250g
Castor oil 50g
Sunflower oil 50g
Shea butter 50g
2 tablespoons honey

Lye 138g
Water 320g

I usually mix lye and oils at approx 120 degrees

I also insulate the soap with towels and usually achieve full gel but for some reason I'm only getting partial gel now which makes me wonder if temps are the problem? I've also tried leaving it for a few days before cutting and it's made no difference. Please help it's so frustrating and expensive! Thanks in advance


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## Dorymae (Jul 23, 2015)

How soon are you trying to cut?  Crumbling is usually a sign of waiting too long. A trick that can sometimes save a loaf is to stick it in the oven to heat it up, then cut immediately. Only try this if your first slice is crumbling.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 23, 2015)

I would say that you need to babysit it again - in the old house it was left a certain way and it gelled and then cut after so many hours. In the new house, you need to work these out again - it's one reason why the questions about gelling and cutting times can be so vague is that each place will be slightly different. 

As it's just for you and yours, I imagine that a partial gel is no issue, more just the cutting issue. Make a batch and keep on poking it with a knife until it seems firm enough to cut.


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## Seawolfe (Jul 23, 2015)

Mine do that if I dont gel - cut kind of like crumbly cheese?
Now I insulate AND put on a dog whelping mat, haven't had a problem since. A heating pad would work too, or a warm cupboard, or the back of a stove that uses a pilot light...
Some people swear by using the oven - heat it up to 170 deg, turn it off, put the soap in for an hour or so. But I've had soaps overheat that way.


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## harveybw (Jul 23, 2015)

Thanks for the quick replies

Dorymae - I usually try to cut within 24 - 48 hours. The thing is the first slice always seems to be ok, it's the slices after that which are breaking and crumbling.

The Efficacious Gentleman - You're right, i'm not bothered about the partial gel I just need a bar of soap that doesn't disintegrate when cut:sad:


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## Dorymae (Jul 23, 2015)

harveybw said:


> Thanks for the quick replies
> 
> Dorymae - I usually try to cut within 24 - 48 hours. The thing is the first slice always seems to be ok, it's the slices after that which are breaking and crumbling.
> 
> The Efficacious Gentleman - You're right, i'm not bothered about the partial gel I just need a bar of soap that doesn't disintegrate when cut:sad:



Try cutting earlier. I have recipes that I cut within 12 hours and they are not salt bars or high in coconut oil, they just firm up quickly. When you get crumbling stop cutting. Turn on the oven at 200 degrees and put your soap on a non reactive pan ( not aluminum or iron) or even a silicone (made for the oven) sheet and heat it up for about 1/2 hour. Take it out and cut immediately. Don't forget the soap will be hot so thick gloves are handy.


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## not_ally (Jul 23, 2015)

What is the soap like as you progress internally in the cutting?  Agree w/Dory, if the first/exterior slice is cutting Ok and the others are crumbling it seems like it is getting harder, faster, in the middle, and it might work better to cut earlier.


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## jenneelk (Jul 23, 2015)

wow - I've never had this happen before and made a good amount in the last few years... it's interesting how that could happen. I have a few I've forgotten and they have ended up super firm to where my wire cutter won't go through them but none are ever close to crumbling.  No clue which were gelled or not as I go back and forth with allowing gel. 
But then again.. my salt bars are 75% salt and a normal oil recipe, yet they take a while to set up. Like I can do swirls and all sorts of stuff with them. lol No idea why.


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## Jstar (Jul 24, 2015)

I agree on cutting sooner. A new house has new variables like Effy said..gotta get those figured out again.

My higher percentage CO soaps usually can be cut within 12 hrs..my high tallow bars however need to be cut no later than 4 hrs after pouring or Im gonna have bricks


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## harveybw (Jul 24, 2015)

Dorymae said:


> Try cutting earlier. I have recipes that I cut within 12 hours and they are not salt bars or high in coconut oil, they just firm up quickly. When you get crumbling stop cutting. Turn on the oven at 200 degrees and put your soap on a non reactive pan ( not aluminum or iron) or even a silicone (made for the oven) sheet and heat it up for about 1/2 hour. Take it out and cut immediately. Don't forget the soap will be hot so thick gloves are handy.



Thanks I'm going to try this now with the rest of the loaf, will let you know how it turns out


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## harveybw (Jul 24, 2015)

harveybw said:


> Thanks I'm going to try this now with the rest of the loaf, will let you know how it turns out



Well I tried this and it did work, some of it was still crumbly but at least I managed to save a fair bit :smile:

Anyway I decided to make a batch without the honey just in case the honey was a problem(I think I'm grasping at straws now:crazy I did add some fragrance oil that I've used loads of times before, it's very well behaved.

The soap did a partial gel again but it was firm enough to cut after about 6 hours, still a bit warm. As soon as I cut the first slice I could see it was starting to crumble! So I put it in the oven on 200 for about 25 mins then cut it as soon as it had cooled for a few minutes. Although it was a little soft I was able to slice it all, hurrah!!

I'm still not sure what the answer is or why it's crumbling and breaking?? Will I have to keep putting my soap in the oven? 

Thank you to everyone for the helpful tips much appreciated.


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## Jstar (Jul 24, 2015)

Something is up if its crumbling just after 6 hrs...:Kitten Love:

Are you doing any water reduction? What about zap testing after 24 hrs...does it zap?


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## Dorymae (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm not sure why your soap is crumbling. Heat works and it is a quick fix, but you should try to find the culprit. 

Have you zap tested your soap?  Not immediately but after 2-3 days?  Lye heavy soap will also cause crumbling, just one extra thing to double check.


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## not_ally (Jul 24, 2015)

Dory, it is weird, if I am understanding Harvey correctly this is a tried-and-true (over years) recipe, the only thing that has changed is the fact that he has moved house.  Harvey, you have managed to collectively stump us


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## Jstar (Jul 24, 2015)

I ran it thru Soapcalc, {omitted the honey} here is what I see..it appears as tho its about 60 gms short on water so that could be some of it....but Im also leaning towards something going on with the lye.

Your recipe:

Olive oil 300g
Palm oil 300g
Coconut oil 250g
Castor oil 50g
Sunflower oil 50g
Shea butter 50g
2 tablespoons honey

Lye 138g
Water 320g

Is there a different mold being used as well perhaps? Maybe try cutting at 4 hrs?


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## kchaystack (Jul 25, 2015)

Jstar said:


> I ran it thru Soapcalc, {omitted the honey} here is what I see..it appears as tho its about 60 gms short on water so that could be some of it....but Im also leaning towards something going on with the lye.



I do not see why a water discount (or using a greater concentration of lye) would be a problem at all.

I sometimes get crumbling if I cut too early using a knife.  Something about the big plane of the blade I guess.  But if I use my wire cutter, it does not do this.


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## Jstar (Jul 25, 2015)

Well if its discounted and then lye heavy...that would cause crumbling. However the bit about the plane of the blade is correct and one I hadn't thought of. If its a wide blade, then as the knife goes down, the top of the knife would naturally push the top of the soap bar outwards causing the bottom to basically rip lose before the actual blade got to it.

Harvey, are you using a knife to cut with? Is it the same one you have used or have you recently switched? Do the bars crumble at the bottom, or are they crumbling in different areas?

Got some pictures?


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## navigator9 (Jul 25, 2015)

The only time I've ever had a problem with soft/crumbly soap is when it didn't gel, wasn't completely saponified, but I didn't realize that, and tried to cut anyway. Does the crumbly part zap? If it does, wait until there's no zap left and try cutting then. Good luck!


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## harveybw (Jul 25, 2015)

Hi

Thanks to everyone for trying to help me.

To answer a few questions, 
I am still using the same knife to cut so I don't think that's the problem
I tested the soap I made approx 2 days ago and it's not zapping. The batch I made yesterday maybe has a slight zap to it.
I don't think the water discount is the problem as I've added the same amount of water for years but who knows? I might add full water to see if that helps.
I haven't taken any pics but will do in the morning as it's nearly bedtime in the UK

I read through all my soap making stuff today(went on a soap making course a few years ago) just to make sure I hadn't forgot an important step or something! Anyway it mentioned about the hardness of water and how it can affect soap. It said if water is too hard it can cause a scum on the top of the lye and cause problems with the soap. 

Now I have noticed when I mixed the lye with the oils that a sort of film/scum is forming around the mixer which I never noticed in the last house. The lye also has a film on top before I mix it.

Anyway since nothing else has been changed I decided to buy bottled spring water and try that. I'll make a batch tomorrow and let you know how I get on, wish me luck! Thanks again.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 25, 2015)

harveybw said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Go for distilled instead of spring water - will be a much better water to use for soaping in general


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## harveybw (Jul 26, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Go for distilled instead of spring water - will be a much better water to use for soaping in general



Thanks for that I'll try distilled instead


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## Jstar (Jul 26, 2015)

Def let us know how it turns out


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## harveybw (Jul 30, 2015)

Hi sorry for going AWOL for a while but you know how life can get in the way;-)
Anyway I tried a new batch using distilled water and although it did cut a bit better it was still crumbly. I think the only reason it improved a little was because I put it in a warm oven to encourage it to gel fully as I could see it was only going to partially gel again

So I finally decided to abandon that recipe and try a new one, I'd had enough of wasting time and money. Basically just removed the sunflower oil and increased the coconut oil. I made a Cedar wood & Sweet orange soap with some Calendula petals added. I made it in my slab mould rather than my loaf mould then placed it in the fridge. I was trying to avoid gel just to see how it would turn out. Anyway it didn't gel and 24 hours later it just looks like a slab of white chocolate and smells beautiful! I think it should be ok when I slice it but at the moment it's still to soft.

I've attached some pics of the old soap and the new soap


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## marilynmac (Jul 31, 2015)

Things that have changed that might affect the soap :
   - season?  
   - moisture content of the air due to the A/C or heating system.
   - air temp.
   - altitude!  Did you move to a different altitude?  When I moved to the mountains, everything got different.


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## harveybw (Jul 31, 2015)

marilynmac said:


> Things that have changed that might affect the soap :
> - season?
> - moisture content of the air due to the A/C or heating system.
> - air temp.
> - altitude!  Did you move to a different altitude?  When I moved to the mountains, everything got different.



We have moved from a town to a little cottage in the English countryside. The house is quite old and the air temps can get a bit colder here and their is definitely more moisture in the air.

My sister also said it's probably to do with the humidity. She likes to bake bread and she said that humidity can really affect how well it rises so maybe soap can be affected as well


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## cascarral (Oct 7, 2019)

Hello  I'm having the same problem with my last few soaps... I've been reading and my guess is that it has something to do with soaping at a lower temperature or lye heaviness. My soap is very soft and crumbles, like wet sand. 

I was wondering if you solved your mystery in the end or if you could stop this from happening...


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## jcandleattic (Oct 7, 2019)

cascarral said:


> Hello  I'm having the same problem with my last few soaps... I've been reading and my guess is that it has something to do with soaping at a lower temperature or lye heaviness. My soap is very soft and crumbles, like wet sand.
> 
> I was wondering if you solved your mystery in the end or if you could stop this from happening...


This post is over 4 years old - none of the posters are here and won't see this. Might be better off starting a new thread and asking your question. You'll get a better response that way.


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