# Scenting Concentrated vs Foamers



## Carl (Apr 28, 2020)

I have somewhat of a dilemma.

I know a lot of people here when they make liquid soap, they store the paste and then dilute it when they need it.  I chose not to do it that way.  I dilute the paste into liquid soap and store it in jugs unscented with no preservative until I need it.  I do it this way because I want to have it ready to go the second I may need it.  For some reason, dilution is very slow for me (sometimes 48 plus hours or more).  No complaints about this though since my LS turns out great.  
So now what I do is let's say I have a friend stop by and he says "Can I have 3 foamers?"  I grab my jug of LS and I make a 24 ounce batch (3 x 8 oz bottles) of foamers which is about 25% LS and 75 % H2O.  At this time, I scent the soap and add the preservative based off of the 24 ounces.

So now what I want to do, is offer somewhat of a concentrate, where people can fill their own foamer bottles.  If I give my friend an 8 ounce container of my liquid soap, he can use it 4 times to fill his foamers.  I want to have all of this scented and with preservative ahead of time.

So If I'm making an 8 oz bottle of LS that will eventually become 32 ounces (8 oz of soap + 24 oz H2O) of foamer, how do I go about scenting and adding preservative to the initial 8 oz of LS?  Should I base it off of 8 oz or 32 oz?

So now when my friend stops by, I hand him (1) 8 ounce bottle of my LS scented with preservative.  He goes home and turns it into 4 foamers with his own water and bottles.

The other dilemma then is I also want my initial 8 ounce bottle of LS to be safe in case someone decides to start using it right from the bottle without mixing it (Guess I'm saying is I don't want to add more scent here than is safe).

Hopefully my question is clear and concise!

Thanks


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 28, 2020)

I re-purpose 32 oz. bottles for that purpose. This one is from my private stash. Normally I use isopropyl alcohol bottles. I have a lot of those for soaping and cleaning glass. To fragrance, I use 2 teaspoons fragrance to 2 tablespoons polysorbate 80 or 20. METHOD: Use an oz or two of the dilution water. Add the poly-80 or 20. Stir until clear. Add the fragrance. Stir. Add more poly as needed until the fragrance is fully incorporated and doesn't cause an oil slick. Then add it to the batch. I use *MMS Fragrance Calc* to determine the amount of fragrance needed.





No preservative necessary due to high alkaline pH.

So, to answer your question, 32 oz foamer soap requires more fragrance than an 8 oz. bottle of concentrate. So give your friend a 32 oz. Refill for his foamer pump. That's what I do.


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## Carl (Apr 29, 2020)

First off, thanks for the reply!

I don't want to get this into a preservative conversation, so let's just talk about scent.

I think what you are saying though is that what I want to do just can't be done.  I don't have 32 ounce bottles.  But I have lots of 8 oz bottles.  And I may be even shipping these bottles at some point and it's cheaper to ship 8 ounces than 32 ounces.

I guess I'm also thinking on the lines of something like Dr Brommer's liquid soap here. For example, I have a 32 ounce bottle of Brommer's Peppermint.  It is highly concentrated.  But, it is safe to use right from the bottle undiluted if I wanted, correct?  But, people take the Brommer's soap, fill their foamers about 25% of the way and the rest with water.  And it still smells like peppermint and is scented nicely.

So I guess I am somewhat trying to replicate what Brommer did, but with my own soap.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 29, 2020)

Carl said:


> First off, thanks for the reply!
> I think what you are saying though is that what I want to do just can't be done.


You're very welcome! Okay. I got it. Yes, it can be done. 
You can add 4 X amount of scent that you would normally use for an 8 oz. bottle to create a concentrated scent for 32 oz of foamer soap.
I use *2.5 mls* to scent 8 oz of LS. So 4 X 2.5 mls = *10 mls*
So you would add 10 mls instead of 2.5 mls to the 8 oz Foamer Refill bottle.

Note: I nuke 8 oz LS for 45 seconds to warm it up before adding fragrance. 
Some scents can be added at room temp without a problem.
Some scents refuse to incorporate and create an oil slick on the surface. That's when I use the Polysorbate to make them water soluble.

BTW, I'm finding that I like the feel of the polysorbate in my foamers. Nice.

Have fun playing!


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## Carl (Apr 29, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> You're very welcome! Okay. I got it. Yes, it can be done.
> You can add 4 X amount of scent that you would normally use for an 8 oz. bottle to create a concentrated scent for 32 oz of foamer soap.
> I use *2.5 mls* to scent 8 oz of LS. So 4 X 2.5 mls = *10 mls*
> So you would add 10 mls instead of 2.5 mls to the 8 oz Foamer Refill bottle.
> ...



Thanks again.

My big concern was having the 8 ounce concentrated bottle having more scent than is safe.  For example, if I'm working with a scent that is 2% IFRA max and I'm using it at 1% in my foamers.  Well now in my concentrate, I am using it at 4% which exceeds the 2% IFRA max.    Then I am distributing something that is technically scented over safe levels.  I guess it would be OK to put a label on it that says "Do not use without diluting"

I could also work my way around this by selecting only scents that are high on the IFRA safe usage.  For example if a scent says 15% max in the IFRA data, then I can scent the foamers at 2% and the concentrate at 8% and still be below safe levels in both bottles!


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## atiz (Apr 29, 2020)

I have never done this so take it with a grain of salt...
But, I think you should observe the safety rate based on the 8oz undiluted bottle of soap. It is better to have a weaker scent in the foamer pump than have a skin rash (or whatever) when using it undiluted. And since it is liquid soap, you never know how (or if) people will dilute it.
Picking scents that have high safety usage, or scents that you can smell even when week (I think peppermint would be like that) could be a good solution too.


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## Susie (May 2, 2020)

I understand what you want to do.  And I understand why.  
I would never exceed the IFRA standard for a fragrance. 
There is always the fact that you can NEVER take a risk on someone else NOT following directions.

The obvious answer is to stick with fragrances that you can use at the concentration of your...concentrate.

I think it would be an unwise idea based on other issues, but I think this answers your question.

The other issues are numerous and varied.


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