# Whaaaaat just happpppenneeed???



## MGM (Feb 6, 2019)

Ok, so I was able to make some soap today after all. Had my 100% lard recipe good to go, litsea cubeba and orange EOs measured out. Had my individual bar molds and put my cold M&P embeds in them, sprayed with rubbing alcohol. Melted my lard, mixed my lye with ice cubes, when they were both 104F, mixed them together. Withing 90 seconds of gentle SBing, I was at trace. Or false trace? So I quickly added the fragrance and continued to blend carefully so that it didn't get too thick. Just the opposite! It thinned out completely! I then embarked on a race to see what would happen first: light trace or dead stick blender. At 15 minutes, I decided that was thick enough (although barely anything, contrasting that with the super thick puddings of my last two batches) and I poured it into the molds, over the embeds.
Almost immediately, it began to look weird, like a skin had formed. It's been 20 minutes and it looks the same as when I took the photo: like an eggy cake!

What happened? Can someone explain it to me?


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## dixiedragon (Feb 6, 2019)

Looks like the beginning of a soap volcano. The skin on top is alien brains. 
https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/tips-and-tricks/soap-behaving-badly/#more-34870


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## Marilyn Norgart (Feb 6, 2019)

I was thinking it looks ike alien brain too but it doesn't sound like it got very warm??


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Feb 6, 2019)

I just have to say that i love the person who came up with “alien brains”. Love it.


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## IrishLass (Feb 6, 2019)

What type of lard did you use? Was it part hydrogenated? Lard has a melting point "range" of between 95F to 113F, depending on the type of lard. If your lard was part hydrogenated, the melting point may have be closer to 113F than 95F, so it's possible that you experienced a brief episode of pseudo-trace before the lye reaction could kick up enough heat to bring the temp up above the lard's melting point and thin things out.....well, _that_ in _possible_ conjunction with your particular EO blend (some scents can thin batter out).  Well, that's my best theory anyway, especially since lard normally takes forever to trace under the right temp conditions. 

I wonder if the alien brains had anything to do with the alcohol you sprayed down into the mold on top of the MP before pouring? Alcohol can do strange things to raw CP batter. Hopefully more folks will chime in on that as I've never sprayed alcohol into my mold before pouring.


IrishLass


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## _Sunny_ (Feb 6, 2019)

What are the odds that your thermometer batteries are low and the reading wasn't accurate? Or that your scale batteries are low and it wasn't reading accurately?


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## jcandleattic (Feb 6, 2019)

Sometimes even when you soap cool (ish) soap will super heat depending on a lot of different factors - fragrance, oils, water content, ambient temp in the room, insulation, etc.,, 

I agree with others, alien brains being the beginning of an overheated gelled batch.



IrishLass said:


> I wonder if the alien brains had anything to do with the alcohol you sprayed down into the mold on top of the MP before pouring? Alcohol can do strange things to raw CP batter. Hopefully more folks will chime in on that as I've never sprayed alcohol into my mold before pouring.


That is a possiblity, although I spray almost every batch I make with 91% ISP alcohol and have never seen this happen due to spraying. That's not to say it couldn't or wouldn't happen though. I didn't consider it.


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## dibbles (Feb 6, 2019)

Did you spray the top with alcohol? I've had that happen occasionally. If your temps were 104, you shouldn't have had false trace, but that is possible. Orange EO can also slow/reverse trace. Just some thoughts. I doubt it got warm enough in individual molds to get alien brains or a volcano. Unless you had it in the oven...maybe.


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## IrishLass (Feb 6, 2019)

jcandleattic said:


> That is a possiblity, although I spray almost every batch I make with 91% ISP alcohol and have never seen this happen due to spraying. That's not to say it couldn't or wouldn't happen though. I didn't consider it.




You spray on the top surface, though, right? I wonder if pouring your batter into the alcohol could make a difference by the soap getting mixed with it?


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## jcandleattic (Feb 6, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> You spray on the top surface, though, right? I wonder if pouring your batter into the alcohol could make a difference by the soap getting mixed with it?



Oh yes, I only spray the tops. I missed the part where she said she sprayed the embeds and then poured the batter.  

The alcohol very well could be the cause then. Thank you for clarifying IL.


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## MGM (Feb 6, 2019)

So many great ideas!
No, it never got hotter than 108F, and that was post-EO addition (and post potential false trace time).

Thermometer is brand new; scale is probably fine (she says hopefully).

My lard says nothing about hydrogenation. Ingredients are lard, 2 preservatives which I don't let my children eat (BHA and BHT) but will hopefully be ok in a wash-off product, and citric acid.

Yes, I did spray the embeds (spritzing multiple times, actually, since it was taking so long to get ready! I had been prepared to move fast!) and then the tops. Wow, that's some powerful alcohol!

Hmmm looks like Dibbles had the same thing in the same context (but prettier colours   https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/alien-brain.64939/#post-663246

I had thought that alien brain came from overheating, but apparently its origins can even be alien!

Well mystery solved....no more IPA on bars, just on tops? Too much surface area maybe?


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## Chris_S (Feb 6, 2019)

MGM said:


> So many great ideas!
> No, it never got hotter than 108F, and that was post-EO addition (and post potential false trace time).
> 
> Thermometer is brand new; scale is probably fine (she says hopefully).
> ...




Get a coin and check the weight online and see if its measuring accurately.


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## dibbles (Feb 6, 2019)

MGM said:


> So many great ideas!
> No, it never got hotter than 108F, and that was post-EO addition (and post potential false trace time).
> 
> Thermometer is brand new; scale is probably fine (she says hopefully).
> ...


In that soap, only the tops were sprayed, soon after pouring. I'm sure the batter wasn't very warm when I poured because it almost never is, and I have to work really hard to get gel in individual cavity molds. I've had it happen one or two other times as well.


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## MGM (Feb 6, 2019)

Chris_S said:


> Get a coin and check the weight online and see if its measuring accurately.


A coin?? that seems a bit small, for the big scale, anyway.
One scale says my quarter weighs 2g. The other one says it weigh 1.57g.


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## penelopejane (Feb 6, 2019)

It might not just be the alcohol. It seems like the temps might have been too low for lard.


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## MGM (Feb 6, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> It might not just be the alcohol. It seems like the temps might have been too low for lard.


Insofar as lard needs to be warmer to hit trace? I was going on the idea that as long as the oils were clear, they were warm enough....if the lard was too cold, wouldn't it have been solid/cloudy?
Trying to "soap at room temperature"...you know, in a 104F room


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## Chris_S (Feb 6, 2019)

MGM said:


> A coin?? that seems a bit small, for the big scale, anyway.
> One scale says my quarter weighs 2g. The other one says it weigh 1.57g.



Oh well i use a little pocket scale so i use a 2 pence which i know or did know how much it weighed think its 7g or 3.5g lol

Considering its only a small scale it works really well i just use a litre sized jug then transfer to a large mixing bowl and scrape anything left with a silicone spoon. Bigger and more accurate scales cost a fortune in England and this was only like 8 quid so im happy lol


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## MGM (Feb 6, 2019)

Chris_S said:


> Oh well i use a little pocket scale so i use a 2 pence which i know or did know how much it weighed think its 7g or 3.5g lol


Interestingly, 6 quarters weighed between 1.56 and 1.58g and one weighed 1.76g. The 6 were from 2009-2015 and the heavy one was from 1984! Our money is shrinking! (Ok this was way OT)


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## Chris_S (Feb 6, 2019)

MGM said:


> Interestingly, 6 quarters weighed between 1.56 and 1.58g and one weighed 1.76g. The 6 were from 2009-2015 and the heavy one was from 1984! Our money is shrinking! (Ok this was way OT)



Mine all weighed same i think pretty sure they have to be close because of needing to be used in vending machines and self serve tills


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## penelopejane (Feb 6, 2019)

MGM said:


> Insofar as lard needs to be warmer to hit trace? I was going on the idea that as long as the oils were clear, they were warm enough....if the lard was too cold, wouldn't it have been solid/cloudy?
> Trying to "soap at room temperature"...you know, in a 104F room


I am sorry I don't use lard.  I was going on posts I have read from Lardinators. 
Maybe one of them can respond.
All I know from personal experience is that at low temps with hard oils you often get weird swirls etc.


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## KiwiMoose (Feb 7, 2019)

@MGM - I think the little piggies have come back to haunt you ;-)


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## earlene (Feb 7, 2019)

MGM said:


> Interestingly, 6 quarters weighed between 1.56 and 1.58g and one weighed 1.76g. The 6 were from 2009-2015 and the heavy one was from 1984! Our money is shrinking! (Ok this was way OT)





Chris_S said:


> Mine all weighed same i think pretty sure they have to be close because of needing to be used in vending machines and self serve tills



Here is an interesting link about the weight and make-up of the US Quarter.  Besides the difference in the alloy used since 1965, I think some quarters can lose weight with a certain amount of wear & tear.  Not normal usage, but for example, being dropped in a garbage disposal, or run over on the street by street sweepers, for example.  Over the course of my life I have seen a pretty good number of damaged coins with little nicks and dings that probably altered their weight somewhat.

http://cointrackers.com/blog/44/how-much-does-a-quarter-weigh/


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## Obsidian (Feb 7, 2019)

Why not use water instead of alcohol to dampen your embeds? Sure you need alcohol to stick M&P to M&P but I think it should be different for CP and M&P.


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## Chris_S (Feb 7, 2019)

earlene said:


> Here is an interesting link about the weight and make-up of the US Quarter.  Besides the difference in the alloy used since 1965, I think some quarters can lose weight with a certain amount of wear & tear.  Not normal usage, but for example, being dropped in a garbage disposal, or run over on the street by street sweepers, for example.  Over the course of my life I have seen a pretty good number of damaged coins with little nicks and dings that probably altered their weight somewhat.
> 
> http://cointrackers.com/blog/44/how-much-does-a-quarter-weigh/



Ill have a look later thank you. @MGM is in canada though do they use the same minting presses for both countries or are the coins the same or simular sizes?


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## Donee' (Feb 7, 2019)

Chuck it in the fridge - its getting to hot


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## shunt2011 (Feb 7, 2019)

I don't add do anything when I add embeds to CP.  I don't do it often mind you.  I just put them in and pour my soap over the top.  Doesn't sound like overheating.  I soap just luke warm to the touch with lard and have not had any false trace.  I SB to emulsion.  I'm thinking it was the alcohol that caused it to kind of seized up some.  I can't get individual molds to gel at all unless I put them in a warm oven.  Sometimes, things just happen with very little explanation.


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## earlene (Feb 7, 2019)

Chris_S said:


> Ill have a look later thank you. @MGM is in canada though do they use the same minting presses for both countries or are the coins the same or simular sizes?


That I don't know.  So I looked it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_(Canadian_coin)


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## MGM (Feb 7, 2019)

TFW the alien brain side of your soap is the GOOD side.....sigh.

I pictured the embeds somehow magically lining themselves up nicely...oh well, maybe as the soap is used they'll be fun little surprises!


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## penelopejane (Feb 7, 2019)

MGM said:


> TFW the alien brain side of your soap is the GOOD side.....sigh.
> 
> I pictured the embeds somehow magically lining themselves up nicely...oh well, maybe as the soap is used they'll be fun little surprises!


When you use embeds in a loaf mold you cut through the soap and the embed and get a nice finish. 

If using a cavity mold you might want to use a planer to get a nice finish or use a knife.


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## MGM (Feb 8, 2019)

Obsidian said:


> Why not use water instead of alcohol to dampen your embeds? Sure you need alcohol to stick M&P to M&P but I think it should be different for CP and M&P.


Oh I didn't know that!! I remember reading a number of things about keeping MP embeds healthy in hot CP (freezing , etc. etc.)  and that they would shrink at different rates, but I thought I read that I still needed IPA. Very good tip, thanks!


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## shunt2011 (Feb 8, 2019)

They can shrink some in CP.  One time I made a bunch of different colored cubes out of MP and then put them into CP.  I did gel it a as I was concerned they would just pop out but was also concerned they would totally melt.   Over time and after a long cure they MP did start to shrink some.  Still stuck in the soap.  Haven't done it since though.   Might have to play with it again once I get all my stock back up to where it needs to be.


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## MGM (Feb 10, 2019)

Update! Soap is now developing ash (possibly surprising, given how it was drenched in IPA  ). ONE of the 9 soaps looks very cool, kind of beachy. The other 8....well....they smell good (although not amazing. Just plain good). Family better get used to seeing them in the shower. Or, perhaps they'll transform into swans during a nice long cure....


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## Dawni (Feb 10, 2019)

MGM said:


> Update! Soap is now developing ash (possibly surprising, given how it was drenched in IPA  ). ONE of the 9 soaps looks very cool, kind of beachy. The other 8....well....they smell good (although not amazing. Just plain good). Family better get used to seeing them in the shower. Or, perhaps they'll transform into swans during a nice long cure....


Looks like an intentional design 
If it smells nice and feels nice, I'm sure your family will love it. After a few uses it won't show anyway lols


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## MGM (Apr 21, 2019)

Update on this soap, 2+ months later.
Still looks the same, alien brain, lye crystals coming out, etc.etc. Still has no fragrance (used orange 5-fold, litsea cubeba, and clay to anchor it, to zero avail) other than the patchouli and neroli of the MP embeds. Nice lather, and LASTS. Oh lordy does this soap last. I started using a bar as soon as I made it, and I still have that bar going, 8+ weeks later! LOTS OF IT. Very hard, solid bar (sometimes crumbles though).
Here's the thing: the lack of fragrance bothers me....could I chop these bars up and make confetti bars, using the same recipe (100% lard) and more/different fragrance? I like the recipe well enough, even though it acted weird (false trace, then alien brain despite not overheating, etc. etc).  I just wish it smelled like something.
What do you think?


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## cmzaha (Apr 21, 2019)

I do not find that clays anchor fragrance or EO's. The litsea should have stayed unless it was to low a percentage.


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## Marilyn Norgart (Apr 21, 2019)

MGM said:


> lye crystals coming out,



say what??  isn't that hard on the skin?


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## dibbles (Apr 21, 2019)

MGM said:


> lye crystals coming out


If you posted about lye crystals before, I missed it and can't find anything reading through the thread again. What do you mean by this? Does it zap? If it does, I wouldn't use the soap or chop it up and add it to another batch.


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## earlene (Apr 21, 2019)

When you say lye crystals coming out, I would guess what you are seeing is the ash formations.  Some ash formations close up, look like hairs growing on the soap.  

BUT, if you do think they are actually lye crystals, have you done the zap test at all to confirm the soap are lye heavy?  In my experience, lye crystals don't migrate out of the soap, but sit inside waiting to be revealed when you cut it open.


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## MGM (Apr 22, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> I do not find that clays anchor fragrance or EO's. The litsea should have stayed unless it was to low a percentage.


Actually now that I think about it, I think I used cornstarch as an anchor, as I read about that somewhere online....


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## MGM (Apr 22, 2019)

earlene said:


> When you say lye crystals coming out, I would guess what you are seeing is the ash formations.  Some ash formations close up, look like hairs growing on the soap.
> 
> BUT, if you do think they are actually lye crystals, have you done the zap test at all to confirm the soap are lye heavy?  In my experience, lye crystals don't migrate out of the soap, but sit inside waiting to be revealed when you cut it open.



Hmmm I need to follow up on this.....a zap test 24 hours after making them had no zap. So perhaps they are just big, crystalized feathery soda ash bits? I will re-zap and photograph tonight.


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## penelopejane (Apr 22, 2019)

Adding weird ingredients like cornstarch can lead to crumbly soap. I haven’t found that clay makes EOs stick. The only thing you can do is up the percentage to 6% but EOs fade a lot quicker than FOs. 

If your ash is the thick crystal type it might not go away even if incorporated into a new soap batch. I think I’d use or chuck this one.


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## MGM (Apr 22, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> Adding weird ingredients like cornstarch can lead to crumbly soap. I haven’t found that clay makes EOs stick. The only thing you can do is up the percentage to 6% but EOs fade a lot quicker than FOs.
> 
> If your ash is the thick crystal type it might not go away even if incorporated into a new soap batch. I think I’d use or chuck this one.


I found the cornstarch tip in a few places (WSP and SMF, among them) but this may be one of those things that differs for people. 
The ash is only on the outside, not crystals on the inside, so I could likely wash it off and chop it up. Probably will; I've been making some small 9oz batches, so I won't waste much if I have to throw out the new batch.


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## penelopejane (Apr 23, 2019)

MGM said:


> I found the cornstarch tip in a few places (WSP and SMF, among them) but this may be one of those things that differs for people.
> The ash is only on the outside, not crystals on the inside, so I could likely wash it off and chop it up. Probably will; I've been making some small 9oz batches, so I won't waste much if I have to throw out the new batch.


Yes you might be right! 
Is your ash just the normal white ash or the crystal ash? I though it might have been the crystal ash from your description. I’ve found that stuff just keeps regrowing! My only solution was to throw it out. Otherwise I’m all for confetti soap! Good luck.


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## glendam (Apr 23, 2019)

I agree with the above about the clays not anchoring the EO.  I was recently reading on how to add French green clay as a colorant to Soap, and it did mention that clays tend to absorb odors, so while they would be helpful in a deodorant recipe, it would absorb the fragrance/EO.  I have used orange 10x and litsea (separately), at the usage rate from BB fragrance calculator and it stayed strong in the soap


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## MGM (Apr 23, 2019)

penelopejane said:


> Yes you might be right!
> Is your ash just the normal white ash or the crystal ash? I though it might have been the crystal ash from your description. I’ve found that stuff just keeps regrowing! My only solution was to throw it out. Otherwise I’m all for confetti soap! Good luck.


It's definitely crystal: it's growing stalactites! That orange piece on the back is not part of the table; it's the soap! And it's a little bit zappy, if I'm honest. That being said, I've been using a bar of it since I first made it (I let it cure enough for other people, but often can't wait myself) and a) it's not harsh on hands and b) it's lasting forever, so I want to say that despite the lack of fragrance, lye crystals, some crumbling, and terrible alien-brain look, it's actually a good soap!


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## linne1gi (Apr 24, 2019)

I definitely find that clay helps to anchor the scent.  I have a few bars of soap that are 3 years old. The essential oils I added were basil and spearmint.  I added 1 tablespoon to the essential oil mix and let it sit for about an hour then added it to my soap batter.  I still use this method and all my fragrances stick.  I have heard of using other ingredients like arrowroot powder or cornstarch but have not tried this.


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## penelopejane (Apr 24, 2019)

MGM said:


> It's definitely crystal: it's growing stalactites! That orange piece on the back is not part of the table; it's the soap! And it's a little bit zappy, if I'm honest. That being said, I've been using a bar of it since I first made it (I let it cure enough for other people, but often can't wait myself) and a) it's not harsh on hands and b) it's lasting forever, so I want to say that despite the lack of fragrance, lye crystals, some crumbling, and terrible alien-brain look, it's actually a good soap!


That happened to me once. I put it down to too much lye. I tried to wash it off very thoroughly and it kept regrowing. I didn’t test for zap (that is not my thing ).  Eventually I threw it away because it just wouldn’t stop growing the crystals.

Looking at your method and mine at the time this could have been the problem for us both. I made mine as a divided batch to test FOs. I thought my lye might have been a bit heavy in this one soap but it also might have been not enough mixing. I think that was your problem too. Or maybe a combination of both?

But you haven’t given us your recipe so that might need tweaking too.


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## MGM (Apr 24, 2019)

It was 100% lard at 27% lye concentration. I just shaved off all crystals from all bars last night, so will see if they regrow. TBH, they don't seem to have grown much more in the past 2 months...most growth was in the first couple of weeks. The bar in the bathroom gets used daily and doesn't have any crystals or ask or anything.
I chopped up one bar and used it in two soaps yesterday so we'll see what happens...


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