# The Zap Test: A Visual Guide



## AlchemyandAshes

In reference to the following posts, I've decided to post a "Visual" on "The Zap Test". 
(Thanks for the "encouragement" _<read : DARE>_ HausFrau, Hazel and Lindy!)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34190&p=302100#p302100
search.php?keywords=Sanitary+zap+test

What exactly is a "zap test"? Is it safe, you ask? Is it sanitary, you ponder? 

Well, it is quite literally TASTING your soap to test for lye heaviness or a very high pH. By either placing the tip of your tongue on the soap in question, or for the faint of heart, rubbing your wet finger on the soap and then placing said finger on your tongue, you will either get the somewhat salty/bitter taste of "soap" (those of us with smarty pants mouths know this taste all too well), or you will get a "zap" or "tingle" or "burn". It's not really a big deal, but it is a quite accurate way of checking for lye heaviness. Even the great Professor Kevin Dunn (_Scientific Soapmaking_) thinks so!

The zap is like what you got as a kid (or, um, "adult") when you stuck the end of a 9 volt battery to your tongue. I believe the reasoning behind this is that Sodium Hydroxide is alkaline in nature, and a 9 volt battery is also alkaline (alkaline batteries?), hence you get a similar result. Maybe I'm making that up, but it sounds plausible. My older sister forced a 9 volt in my mouth after telling her "she wasn't the boss of me", so I learned at an early age what a "zap" was. I also learned that it wouldn't kill me, no matter what my sister told me, though my mom thought I might get some weird germs from licking things I shouldn't. (She was probably right, but don't tell her...it would ruin my street cred.)

So kids, you're in safe hands with me! I've licked a few batteries and tons of soap in my time, and here I am...alive and well to bring you this Public Service Announcement!

THE ZAP TEST - STEP 1:
SELECT YOUR SOAP
[attachment=4:36q9nt64]zaptest_1.jpg[/attachment:36q9nt64]

STEP 2:
TONGUE APPLICATION
[attachment=3:36q9nt64]zaptest_2.jpg[/attachment:36q9nt64]

STEP 3:
"ZAP!" OR "ICK! THIS TASTES LIKE SOAP!"?
[attachment=2:36q9nt64]soap in mouth.jpg[/attachment:36q9nt64]
[attachment=1:36q9nt64]battery.jpg[/attachment:36q9nt64]

STEP 4:
RINSE AND REPEAT (This one's for you HausFrau, Lindy, and Hazel!)
[attachment=0:36q9nt64]zaptest_3.jpg[/attachment:36q9nt64]

If you got a zap, reevaluate your recipe, run it through a couple lye calculators, and check your scales accuracy. If all seems as it should, leave your soap alone for a few weeks and zap test again. It may just be a bit high, as fresh soap usually is, and will come down a bit during cure. If you have visible crystals of lye or weeping pockets of lye (sounds like some creepy medical condition), then it will not sort itself out and will need to be rebatched.

Well my soapy friends, I hope this Visual Guide to the Zap Test has brought you enlightenment. I leave you with these words of wisdom...feel free to use them in your marketing:

*TONGUE TESTED - SKIN APPROVED!

IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR MY TONGUE, IT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOUR SKIN!

I LICK EACH BAR TO ASSURE YOUR SAFETY!*


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## chicklet

Hilarious!!!      and yet very informative at the same time! Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us . . . but now I have this image in my head of you and Gene Simmons in a soap licking contest . . .


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## AlchemyandAshes

chicklet said:
			
		

> . . . but now I have this image in my head of you and Gene Simmons in a soap licking contest . . .


My husband is a HUGE Kiss fan...for his 40th birthday I hired a Kiss Tribute band to play. His office is decorated in Kiss memorabilia. "Forever" by Kiss was our wedding song...
And as for Gene Simmons -  I can touch my nose with my tongue and tie a cherry stem with my tongue. Both great party tricks, though touching my nose just seems a bit wonky   . The cherry stem trick seems much cooler, and is a great free-drink-getter at a bar.  8) 
Alas, not that this cherry-stem-tying-tongue has been to one of those establishments in a long while...


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## judymoody

I can do the cherry stem thing too!  But haven't had the opportunity to show off that trick in a good long while.

Love the tutorial!


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## silvercb67

That was a simply amazing Tutorial. Thank you so very much.    love it!


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## thefarmerdaughter

The children think I've lost it, b/c I've been sitting here laughing so hard!


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## Fran2

Shawnee, how funny you are.   Thank you for the very funny visual!!!   It was hilarious.


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## Lindy




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## Pepsi Girl

That was great!!  I got to tell you I just cannot bring myself to do the zap test.  My mom use to wash my mouth out with soap when I was young and mouthy!  The memory of that is still to vivid in my mind and my mouth!!! :sick:


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## maiseycat




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## cerelife

What a hoot!
I choose a bar from the middle of the loaf for "my bar" as well. 
My adult nephew was staying with us for a couple of weeks this summer between acting gigs and he was interested in how I made soap, since he uses mine all the time. So he watched me make a couple of batches and acted as my "assistant"...very cool and fun for us both! Then the next day he helped me pull them from the log molds and cut them. He was fascinated by the whole process, but when I zap tested "my" bar, he was like WTH...you made ME wear gloves to handle this stuff...so did you SERIOUSLY just lick that bar of soap??? Beyond funny!


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## 2lilboots

Awesome!  I somehow knew this thread was coming....lol!  My view is if I licked it......it is mine!


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## dyclement05

Thanks for the awesome tutorial! I've not made a whopping three batches of soap and the first two, I waited a full 24 hours before doing a zap test, so my stuff was good. This last batch, however, has been done maybe 12 hours, probably less, and I have had my first zap! EWWWWWWW. I think I'll wait 24 hours from now one.


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## Koshka

That was totally epic! More tutorials please! 

P.S.: No way I'm doing the zap test lol.


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## Hausfrau007

Shawnee, you're too goofy for words, you know that? LOL!!!!


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## AlchemyandAshes

Hausfrau007 said:
			
		

> Shawnee, you're too goofy for words, you know that? LOL!!!!


Who, me? Why, whatever would make you say that?
 :twisted:


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## Hazel

Too funny! Thanks for taking the time to make this 'Visual Guide'.


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## AngelMomma

I love that this 'tutorial' was put up on a sticky!  LOL  Those pics are great


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## SoapAddict415

Oh that was too funny!


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## memphishiker

Very good!


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## Maggiewon

I've been told I'm weird because I lick my soap...Now this just proves a true soaper really does have a licking good time!


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## Hazel

Maggiewon said:
			
		

> ...Now this just proves a true soaper really does have a licking good time!



Thanks for making me laugh with this great comment!


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## quite frankly

OK...I'm completely new to soaping and I had no idea you could zap test that way!  All I had heard about zap testing was buying this expensive piece of equipment to do it.  
This tutorial not only made me laugh my *ahem* off...it also saved me a truckload of money! (And now my kids will have one more reason to think I'm bat crap crazy...awesome!)


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## ThenCameJen

This may be a silly question, but how strong is the zap supposed to be?  Is it a noticeable zap (like the buzzy feeling of a fresh 9V battery) or more of a gentle tingle?

Not that I have a whole lot of batches under my belt, but in the ones I've tested, I've never felt a strong zap.  In fact, I'm not sure if what I feel is a tingly sensation, or the sensation of my taste buds screaming, "Noooo, not the soap!"

I guess the question is, will I KNOW it's definitely a zap?  Should I cut my next batch a little early, to know for sure what a zap feels like?  It's like making myself put a 9V to my tongue to find out if it's fresh or not.


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## AlchemyandAshes

I guess it depends on how sensitive your tongue is... 
The "zap" is definitely noticeable, but in varying degrees...it may feel like a little "bite" or "sting" or it may just burn and tingle a bit. If it's just a little tingle or burn and you're just not sure...like not an "Ouch!" but an "Ew!", wait a few days and try again...sometimes it just needs a little more time to fully saponify (if it's fresh out of the mold). If it's a "jolt", there's something wrong, either measurement or recipe wise, and it needs to be rebatched or otherwise revised.

If there are obvious pockets of "ooze"...DO NOT PUT YOUR TONGUE TO IT! :shock: 
If there are obvious crystals either on top or throughout your soap...DO NOT PUT YOUR TONGUE TO IT! :shock:

Just a little FYI, the crystals may be fragrance oil, or they may be lye...and if they are lye and only on the top of the soap, they may be able to be rinsed off, especially if the rest of the soap does not zap. If they are inside the soap...rebatch, baby.


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## melstan775

Isn't soap s'posed to taste like soap? What's it s'posed to taste like if it's not soap tasting?


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## AlchemyandAshes

Yeah, of course it's supposed to taste like soap...just not like electrified soap.


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## celia13

so this is how you zap test after making cold process? i have seen the zap test done in hot process before it is put into the mold, but i have been wondering how it is tested when it is cold process. i have never made soap before, but it seems i may be better off trying hot process first, because i can zap test it before it is completely done so i don't ruin my batch.


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## lizflowers42

I have officially felt my first zap from my batch of non-gel soap.  It's nice and creamy looking, and after unmolding, and cutting I was curious if it would zap after being 3 days in the fridge.  YUP.  I can now say I know what it feels like!


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## ZandarKoad

So...  If it doesn't ZAP, does that mean your soap is completely saponified?  Because I just tested my two day old soap (during cutting) and it didn't ZAP...  But I don't really know what it should feel like because that was my first time tasting soap.


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## AlchemyandAshes

ZandarKoad said:


> So...  If it doesn't ZAP, does that mean your soap is completely saponified?  Because I just tested my two day old soap (during cutting) and it didn't ZAP...  But I don't really know what it should feel like because that was my first time tasting soap.


You would know if you got zapped. Trust me.
2 day old soap that isn't lye heavy should not zap. Most of the saponification takes place over the first 48 hours...that can be sped up by gelling your soap or the hot process method. So if you didn't get zapped, your on the right track! 

If that's your first time tasting soap, I applaud you. I tasted lots of soap growing up (smartypantsmouth) :Kitten Love:


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## ZandarKoad

AlchemyandAshes said:


> You would know if you got zapped. Trust me.
> 2 day old soap that isn't lye heavy should not zap. Most of the saponification takes place over the first 48 hours...that can be sped up by gelling your soap or the hot process method. So if you didn't get zapped, your on the right track!
> 
> If that's your first time tasting soap, I applaud you. I tasted lots of soap growing up (smartypantsmouth) :Kitten Love:



OK, thank you so much for the info.  Please help me understand one more thing...  Why am I letting it cure again for 4-6 weeks again (per recommendations everywhere)?  Is it simply to dry the bars out so they are hard?  Or is there some other chemical process besides saponification occurring?:?:


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## AlchemyandAshes

ZandarKoad said:


> OK, thank you so much for the info.  Please help me understand one more thing...  Why am I letting it cure again for 4-6 weeks again (per recommendations everywhere)?  Is it simply to dry the bars out so they are hard?  Or is there some other chemical process besides saponification occurring?:?:



During the curing phase, scientifically speaking: excess water evaporates and the pH will drop a little...anecdotally speaking: soap becomes milder and lather improves, and your soap will last longer in the shower. There's lots of theories out there over whether soap needs a 4-6 week cure...and in my experienced opinion, the answer is yes - CP soap benefits from a 4-6 week cure, and longer is better, especially if you use a high percentage of Olive Oil. 
Experiment for yourself: use a soap that is freshly cut (as long as there's no zap) and take notes on how long it lasts, lather, hardness, pH, how your skin feels after use, etc. Then use a soap that has cured for 4-6 weeks and take the same notes, and compare the two.
There are generally no dire consequences to using a soap that hasn't had a good cure (with the exception of a lye heavy soap)...it's more a matter of quality.


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## volya

are there soaps that don't zap at all right after cutting? 2 days ago I made no gel whipped soap and it does zap right now. I hope it will go away.. I'm new to all these..


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## AlchemyandAshes

My soaps that gel do not zap after 18-24 hours (once they've returned to their opaque stage after gel) as the gelling speeds up the saponification process (like the hot process method does). If your soap is still zapping after 2 days (most saponification generally happens over 48 hours), it probably will not sort itself out. Post your question along with your recipe as a new thread for more detailed advice.


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## three_little_fishes

I just learned so much from your post about why to cure! Thank you!! I've gelled every batch so far and wondered why it seemed "ready" so quick. I usually just take the little end piece to try out after a couple of weeks. The rest I'm letting cure. 

Also, I've been trying to figure out the zap vs icky soap taste (haven't tasted soap since I dropped the f bomb in the 6th grade  ). So today I touched my tongue to the crock pot before cleaning last night's mess. NOW I get it!!! Hahahaha!


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## AlchemyandAshes

Isn't it funny how once you've been "Zapped", you know exactly what I'm talking about?


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## LunaLion

I tried the zap test with my HP soap the other day. My first thought was, "Zap? Wth? What if it zaps and I don't notice?". So, apprehensively, I stuck my finger tip on the tip of my tongue and ZAAAPP!!! It definitely does feel like touching the tip of a battery on your tongue. Lol. Glad I got that out of the way...Now I know what to expect from licking a lye heavy soap!  

I just want to make sure though..once I soap doesn't 'zap', it's okay to use?


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## AlchemyandAshes

LunaLion said:


> I just want to make sure though..once I soap doesn't 'zap', it's okay to use?



Yep, once it stops zapping, it's usable  
You can invest in fancy schmancy pH testing equipment to get an exact reading of the pH of your soap, but it really isn't necessary. Most soap tests at around the 10 range after cure. Your tongue is way more sensitive than your skin, so if it doesnt cause pain or sensitivity to your tongue, its unlikely to do so on your skin.


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## mary

How long i should wait to test the soap with tongue tested? Thanks


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## AlchemyandAshes

Wait 48 hours for gelled soaps, a little longer for non gelled soaps.


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## christinak

Lol, I made my daughter taste it yesterday :twisted:


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## Lindy

Give it a couple of days.  And then just wet your finger, rub it on the soap and then test....


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## Smee

Shawnee said:
			
		

> "Wait 48 hours for gelled soaps, a little longer for non gelled soaps."



NOW I see this ....Once zapped twice shy.  :sick:



			
				Cristinak said:
			
		

> "I made my daughter taste it yesterday"



There's another thing that makes kids useful  (I'm making a list)


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## mary

Thank you


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## seven8soap

Hilarious, and well said. Thanks for making fun out if my least favorite part of soaoing. Who would have thought we would grow up and voluntarily stick soap on our flavor buds?! Adults have the world all backwards.


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## Phyllis

Thanks for the tutorial! I did the zap test today on my very first batch of soap. I am concerned that it is lye heavy since it is hard and breakable (after sitting in the mold for two days), but I didn't get a zap. At least I don't think I did; sounds like the "zap is hard to miss. I'm still considering rebatch though, just because I can't think why else it would be so hard so fast.


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## sunfloweracres

*Zap test*



dyclement05 said:


> Thanks for the awesome tutorial! I've not made a whopping three batches of soap and the first two, I waited a full 24 hours before doing a zap test, so my stuff was good. This last batch, however, has been done maybe 12 hours, probably less, and I have had my first zap! EWWWWWWW. I think I'll wait 24 hours from now one.


 
I have been using the hp crock pot method lately for shampoo bars and use pH strips for testing. Plus I do the zap test just to make sure, and have never been zapped. I almost feel left out!


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## AnitaB

ThenCameJen said:


> This may be a silly question, but how strong is the zap supposed to be?  Is it a noticeable zap (like the buzzy feeling of a fresh 9V battery) or more of a gentle tingle?
> 
> Not that I have a whole lot of batches under my belt, but in the ones I've tested, I've never felt a strong zap.  In fact, I'm not sure if what I feel is a tingly sensation, or the sensation of my taste buds screaming, "Noooo, not the soap!"
> 
> I guess the question is, will I KNOW it's definitely a zap?  Should I cut my next batch a little early, to know for sure what a zap feels like?  It's like making myself put a 9V to my tongue to find out if it's fresh or not.




That's a very good question! As a newbie to soap making I only have one batch under my belt.


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## soapguy

I stick my tongue on the soap. If I can leave it there indefinitely and taste nothing but soap, then it's ready to go.


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## ashleyrobertson

You can also dissolve some of your soap in water, and use a digital PH tester.  You can pick them up for pretty cheap.

With that said, I prefer the ZAP test.  Much quicker


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## SarahTH

You are just too funny.  I remember the metallic taste of the 9volt on the tongue (my brothers fault)  It gives me shivers just thinking abt it.  But I just did a zap test on the soaps I made last week and it taste like soap, no jolts or anything so I must be good to go  Plus I've already used them on my hands and I still have all my fingers and no burn marks. lol


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## ad02

Hi,
I'm new to soap making and so far it hasn't gone perfectly.  The soaps look and smell amazing, and I do not feel a 'zap' when I lick them, at all. But they do have that alkaline feeling when I wash with them, that slippery, hard to rinse off feeling, and afterwards my hands feel tight and dry.  I should mention that these are either 100% olive oil or close to, with maybe 1/3 sunflower, or a couple oz coconut oil of the 24 oz oil total.  I use 3 or 3.1 oz. lye with the 24 oz oil (and sometimes even I add an extra oz or so of oil).  My digital scale weighs to 0.1oz.  Do you think the harshness will 'cure' out?  Its only been 3 weeks so far. The CP soapmaking class I did taught that saponification is complete after 24 hours.  Other sources say castile has to cure for months to get mild enough to use. Which is correct?  What the heck is going on here that I'm superfatting and still my hands feel dry and tight after washing?


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## MKRainville

Loved the photos  very nice!!!


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## Cally

Deep inside I can't help but feel that this whole 'licking the soap' is just some awful, mean, horrible conspiracy on those of us (me) that are too stupid to know any better. 

Someone on this very website, on this very forum once convinced me to try the zap test. I don't think it was a zap but oh my goodness I have NEVER tasted anything so disgusting in my life! Not even mushrooms are that revolting. I wanted to wash my tongue but that would have just started a vicious and unending cycle of abuse on my taste buds.


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## Lidyax

Cally said:


> Deep inside I can't help but feel that this whole 'licking the soap' is just some awful, mean, horrible conspiracy on those of us (me) that are too stupid to know any better.
> 
> Someone on this very website, on this very forum once convinced me to try the zap test. I don't think it was a zap but oh my goodness I have NEVER tasted anything so disgusting in my life! Not even mushrooms are that revolting. I wanted to wash my tongue but that would have just started a vicious and unending cycle of abuse on my taste buds.



My soap taste weird, but they don't taste too horrible, IMHO. Perhaps what we put in our soap effect how it tastes?


Sent from my iPad using Soap Making


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## athallr

Thanks for posting this  gonna get my hubby to try it, lol. I'm too chicken!


Sent from my iPhone using Soap Making


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## 7Lbar

AlchemyandAshes said:


> During the curing phase, scientifically speaking: excess water evaporates and the pH will drop a little...anecdotally speaking: soap becomes milder and lather improves, and your soap will last longer in the shower. There's lots of theories out there over whether soap needs a 4-6 week cure...and in my experienced opinion, the answer is yes - CP soap benefits from a 4-6 week cure, and longer is better, especially if you use a high percentage of Olive Oil.
> Experiment for yourself: use a soap that is freshly cut (as long as there's no zap) and take notes on how long it lasts, lather, hardness, pH, how your skin feels after use, etc. Then use a soap that has cured for 4-6 weeks and take the same notes, and compare the two.
> There are generally no dire consequences to using a soap that hasn't had a good cure (with the exception of a lye heavy soap)...it's more a matter of quality.


This is very good information. I was wondering about writing down my notes on the soaps I make. My goal next year (Jan) is to start with 5-7 batches of different combinations that will be the standard soaps I want to make available, and after having them cure (using your guide for zap testing) use one bar from each batch before full cure. Then use one bar from each after total curing time to see how everything feels. I then will use/give/sell the remaining bars but keep one from each to test shelf life.


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## Cinder

*Zap test*

Hello,  I made my first batch of soap 4 weeks ago.  I did the zap test a day after the soap was made, then each week.  I could tell the zap was getting less and less.  Should it not be there at all?  Should the soap only be used if there is no zap felt?
Thanks


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## max_ime

ashleyrobertson said:


> You can also dissolve some of your soap in water, and use a digital PH tester.  You can pick them up for pretty cheap.
> 
> With that said, I prefer the ZAP test.  Much quicker




I think ph and lye heavy are 2 things right? One could make a soap of a 9.3 ph and still get zapped.


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## Val-11

Thank you for posting this info. It's everything I have asking and wondering about! Great information!


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## max_ime

The difference between ph and total alkalinity :
http://eastgatepoolsspas.com/blog/2010/07/12/ph-vs-total-alkalinity/

I got a little burned with my first soap bar which had a ph of 9.3 thinking it meant it was fully cooked. 

So I'll try to titrate my diluted soap with vinegar and watch how fast the ph drops (how many drops of vinegar to lower it=how much excess alkalinity in the soap)


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## matrevino72

I just made a batch of CP soap, and after 24 hours of sitting , I unmolded,and out of curiosity I did a zap test with my tounge,and nothing, zero zip zilch nada, just tasted like soap, did I miss something?


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## AcornSky

I made a batch yesterday and did the zap test an hour or so later (because I'm either curious or a masochist) - it zapped noticeably although not badly.  Today I unmoulded it and did another zap test - nothing other than a soapy taste.


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## Seawolfe

matrevino72 said:


> I just made a batch of CP soap, and after 24 hours of sitting , I unmolded,and out of curiosity I did a zap test with my tounge,and nothing, zero zip zilch nada, just tasted like soap, did I miss something?


Nope, when it just tastes like soap, you're good


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## matrevino72

so does this mean that it's good to use, or does it still need a 4-6 week cure time? 
I ask because mine is the same way, I made a batch yesterday, unmolded today, did my zap test and it just tasted like soap, no zap at all.


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## Val-11

I'm a newbie with the cp but I'm pretty sure they say to wait those weeks for the soap to harden even if it has passed the zap test. I know I would rather wait so that the soap will last a long time and then I can test/play with other soap recipes.


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## matrevino72

excellent, thanks for the quick replies.


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## Bubli

I would wait the 4 weeks and maybe longer depending on the amount of hard fats you used.Im fairly new to making soap also,but I have noticed that although it seems hard enough on the outside,the inside of the soap is still not quite ready,it will get mushy on you really quickly(experience)But I have also learned for myself that it is totally safe after 2 days and my test strips say the ph is good.


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## max_ime

I would say you have to wait at least 4 weeks if you plan on NOT drying your skin.  Curing is mostly about the soap getting milder, this is much more important than for it to get drier.


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## vuladams

LOL epic tutorial!


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## Cactuslily

Thanks for the hilarious tutorial! 
As for the zap test. I've made just a few batches of CP soap. A couple of them weren't made that long ago. Certainly not 4-6 weeks. However, I'm not getting "zapped". Does that mean my soap is safe to use?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Cactuslily said:


> Thanks for the hilarious tutorial!
> As for the zap test. I've made just a few batches of CP soap. A couple of them weren't made that long ago. Certainly not 4-6 weeks. However, I'm not getting "zapped". Does that mean my soap is safe to use?


 

Zap doesn't happen for long with a soap that is made correctly - 

*Safe to use* - when it stops zapping. CP, that can be between 1 to 2 days, maybe a touch longer if the soap is cooled and so on.  For HP, after the cook.

*Ready to use* - after the cure.  Usually between 4 to 8 weeks, more for certain types of soap.

*The bit inbetween* - the soap is safe to use, but will not be an exact look at how the final soap (post cure) will perform.


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## BWsoaps

Hey guys as where on the topic of lye and zap testing I would really like to ask...

The sodium hydroxide I use is 99% pure SH, so is most of the stuff I find online But what is the 1% that is not listed? 

Literally have no clue and it never tells you on the back? 

Would love to know since I've been zap testing and hope it's nothing bad.

Sorry if this sounds dumb

Thanks Liam  x


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## galaxyMLP

The 1% is likely water. Over time because sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is hygroscopic (absorbs water) it will become lower than 99% pure. This is why you should store it in an air tight container. In fact, 99% is extremely pure. Most NaOH is 94-96% pure as reported by a certificate of analysis from the company. Hopefully that helps!


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## LBussy

I'd guess it's carbonate as that's often a by-product of the process.  As time goes on it will pull water from the air and lower it's relative purity, but a new product would probably have carbonates.  for example, have a look at this very typical MSDS:

http://www.certified-lye.com/MSDS-Lye.pdf


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## galaxyMLP

That makes total sense. I wouldn't have guessed that though off the top of my head. I need to start requesting the C of A from my manufacturer.


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## gigisiguenza

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Zap doesn't happen for long with a soap that is made correctly -
> 
> *Safe to use* - when it stops zapping. CP, that can be between 1 to 2 days, maybe a touch longer if the soap is cooled and so on.  For HP, after the cook.
> 
> *Ready to use* - after the cure.  Usually between 4 to 8 weeks, more for certain types of soap.
> 
> *The bit inbetween* - the soap is safe to use, but will not be an exact look at how the final soap (post cure) will perform.



I love this guide TEG. It should be in a tutorial exactly as is


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## Debs

Loved reading this thread.  I am a newbie and made one batch on a course and just getting ideas by reading through as many posts as i can...this one on a rainy Sunday has been the best so far!!


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## kittensmom

Do you need to test the ph of hp?


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## Steve85569

kittensmom said:


> do you need to test the ph of hp?


yes.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

No. 

The pH is pretty much meaningless with soap. You need to zap test the soap, not pH test it.


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## Susie

pH measures the alkalinity of a substance.  Soap is alkaline.  You do not need to test it, I can tell you already.  

What you need to know is if the soap is safe, meaning whether all the lye got used up saponifying the fat.  Zap testing tells you if any lye is remaining.  That tells you if it is safe.


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## DeeAnna

I'm throwing my vote in with Susie and The Gent. The pH will not tell you if there is excess lye; it will only tell you the pH. This is true for CP soap, HP soap, liquid soap, cream soap, shave soap, etc.

Every blend of fats (actually fatty acids) will make a soap that has a characteristic pH. Olive oil soap that has no excess lye will have a characteristic pH that is higher than, say, a coconut oil soap also with no excess lye. Which soap is lye heavy? Neither.

If you make a recipe over and over again the exact same way and with the exact same ingredients every time, the pH might be helpful as a general indicator, but that's a limited case. The pH test is often inaccurate the way most soapers do it, even people who shell out the big bucks for a nice pH meter. Strips, even the good ones, are usually off by a unit or two. And phenolpthalein drops ... well, don't get me started on them.

The zap test, which has been used by soap makers for centuries, and the modern standardized "free alkalinity" laboratory test are the best tests for excess lye in soap.

If you do your recipe calculations with care (or let a reputable calc do them for you), use at least some superfat, own a decent scale that weighs accurately, and have good working habits to prevent mis-measuring, you should seldom if ever get a zappy soap. That is especially true if you wait a couple-three days after the soap is unmolded before you zap test. If you are this kind of soaper, the zap test is simply a double check that all is well, not a horrible trial to endure.


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## ngian

DeeAnna said:


> And phenolpthalein drops ... well, don't get me started on them.



Hello DeeAnna, I'm quoting this old message of yours as I have lately investigated something that might change the way you think about phenolpthalein drops.

After reading *Kevin Dunn's article* at which he writes (when he describes how to make a lye excess soap on purpose):



> When you  open the cup the next day, the soap should appear normal, but if you  have made it correctly it will be lye heavy. To see this, dribble a few  drops of phenolphthalein indicator onto the soap. It should turn pink.  Be aware that phenolphthalein is most often sold as a solution in  alcohol, and this is what is needed for the test. A solution in water  will turn pink whether or not the soap is lye heavy.


So if there is no water between phenolphthalein and NaOH then this indicator works well with the above test. I did the test my own where I had two cups, one with few NaOH pellets and the other with ammonium powder. Phenolphthalein turned pink on the NaOH pellets, so I guess someone that dislikes licking soaps while searching for excess lye spots on soaps, then this could be an alternative test.

I guess this might work well with the soap paste on a GLS soap too where there is not much water in it...

What do you all think about it?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

As she was talking about testing for pH, her comment still stands - it is not a good way of determining the pH of a soap. 

As for use in general as a zap-alternative, while in that particular case it would show that the soap was lye heavy, I understand that it can also turn pink with non-lye heavy but high pH soaps, giving false positives


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## ngian

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> As she was talking about testing  for pH, her comment still stands - it is not a good way of determining  the pH of a soap.



I agree with you on that Gent...



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> As for use in general as a zap-alternative, while in that particular  case it would show that the soap was lye heavy, I understand that it can  also turn pink with non-lye heavy but high pH soaps, giving false  positives




but I think that the specific phenolphthalein test might be an alternative to the Lick / Zap test, only if there is *no water* present at the test so as to see if there is really any NaOH excess. PH is only for aqueous solutions.


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## Susie

The issue in question, ngian, is not what the pH of the soap is.  The question is, "Is it safe?"  The pH can be really high, but the soap can be safe. 

Also, there are too many other factors that will turn phenolpthalein pink.  Paper plates, paper towels, water, whatever was on the gloves that got that bit of soap out....  The list goes on and on.  Since neither you nor I intend to go see how these folks perform that test, I deem it of little to no value in determining anything.  There is simply no way to know whether it was performed correctly.

One simple, free, painless test that can be performed by anyone, anywhere with absolutely clear results is, to my mind, the better choice.

If someone is making liquid soap that they intend to sell, they need to know the pH to be able to add the preservative.  They need to know how to properly dilute that soap paste and use a pH meter that is calibrated on a regular basis.  This is the only time you need to know the pH.  And this is the only proper way to determine it.


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## DeeAnna

Dunn is using the test as a "go - no go" test. He is checking this one single point -- Does the surface of this particular soap test alkaline to phenolphthalein or is it not? I agree a person can use phenolphthalein that way.

Note that Dunn is only using the test to confirm the pH on the surface is high for that particular soap in that particular experiment. The surface of other soaps may flush pink to phenolphthalein without actually being lye heavy overall -- but that's not the point of that particular experiment. He acknowledges this fact toward the end of the article you referenced when he discusses the question: "How does soda ash form on a normal soap, one that is not overly alkaline?..." So don't take his use of phenolphthalein in this experiment out of the context of the experiment.

Too many soapers use phenolphthalein outside the scope of Dunn's go-no go test without really understanding what they're doing. Some want to use phenolphthalein drops as a substitute for an excess alkalinity test or a zap test. Some liquid soap makers insist on cooking liquid soap paste until a dab of the paste tests colorless to phenolphthalein. Some believe the intensity of the indicator's color on bar soap or soap paste is directly correlated to a pH reading for the soap as a whole. 

THAT is what I have a problem with -- how soapers use phenolphthalein in ways for which it is not suited or how they interpret the results in ways that are not realistic. I don't see any reason to change my point of view on this subject. 

Edit: Dunn also says this: "...Sodium carbonate is a much weaker alkali than sodium hydroxide, and will not change the color of _alcohol-based_ phenolphthalein indicator...." (Emphasis is mine.) 

Sodium carbonate is indeed a weaker alkali, but what is more important to know about this statement is that sodium carbonate is only slightly soluble in alcohol. If a chemical does not dissolve (much or at all) in the alcohol of the phenolphthalein indicator, it's not going to make the alcohol solution alkaline and thus the chemical won't test pink to an alcohol-based phenolphthalein solution. If you put a drop of water on an ashy soap to dissolve the sodium carbonate and then test the wet spot with phenolphthalein, the phenolphthalein should turn pink. So it's important to also to not get the wrong impression of what Dunn is saying here -- in other words, don't take this statement out of context either.


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## LBussy

DeeAnna, when I read your posts I am often left saying out loud: "Damnit, that's what I was TRYING to say!"  

Thanks for the clarity.


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## Margo

How disgusting!  Non scientific methods of testing soap for lye is dangerous.


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## LBussy

Margo said:


> How disgusting!  Non scientific methods of testing soap for lye is dangerous.


Not nearly as dangerous as not knowing what you are talking about.


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## artemis

Margo said:


> How disgusting!  Non scientific methods of testing soap for lye is dangerous.



Maybe go back and read the whole thread. Zap vs. pH test has been discussed from all angles. If not this thread, then numerous others throughout the forum.


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## DeeAnna

"...How disgusting! Non scientific methods of testing soap for lye is dangerous...."

It's obvious you have a strong bias, but I have no idea what you're talking about. :think:


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## Flowermountains

*I've been zapped!*



Greetings, 

So...not a good way to start I know.  But, I did the Zap test and sure enough I felt the sting, much like I do when I see George Clooney.  My soap looks really pretty, I'm really shocked but I worry about it being unsafe to use.  They have been curing for almost two weeks and I still got zapped. If I let them sit for 8 weeks and beyond (whatever it takes so long as I don't have to rebatch ...which I don't even know what that means. I certainly don't want to have to toss it or make laundry soap of it cause, well, I don't have a clue how to do that either.  Any input from you sweet soapers would be greatly appreciated.[/SIZE]


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Flowermountains said:


> Greetings,
> 
> So...not a good way to start I know.  But, I did the Zap test and sure enough I felt the sting, much like I do when I see George Clooney.  My soap looks really pretty, I'm really shocked but I worry about it being unsafe to use.  They have been curing for almost two weeks and I still got zapped. If I let them sit for 8 weeks and beyond (whatever it takes so long as I don't have to rebatch ...which I don't even know what that means. I certainly don't want to have to toss it or make laundry soap of it cause, well, I don't have a clue how to do that either.  Any input from you sweet soapers would be greatly appreciated.[/SIZE]





Hi

Full recipe and process would be needed for any decent information. A photo would also be helpful. It might well be best to start a new thread instead


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## Susie

Flowermountains said:


> Greetings,
> 
> So...not a good way to start I know.  But, I did the Zap test and sure enough I felt the sting, much like I do when I see George Clooney.  My soap looks really pretty, I'm really shocked but I worry about it being unsafe to use.  They have been curing for almost two weeks and I still got zapped. If I let them sit for 8 weeks and beyond (whatever it takes so long as I don't have to rebatch ...which I don't even know what that means. I certainly don't want to have to toss it or make laundry soap of it cause, well, I don't have a clue how to do that either.  Any input from you sweet soapers would be greatly appreciated.[/SIZE]



It would probably be best to start a new thread on this, but I will answer here.  

The first thing we need to help you troubleshoot is the entire recipe in weights.  Including the weight of the water and any additives, such as colorants and fragrance(s).

Oh, and welcome to the forum!


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## Margo

I would re-calculate your recipe using The Sage calculator.


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## martinsmom13

Hilarious. Thanks for illustration.


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