# Palm Oil alternatives?



## divyadinesh07

Hi guys! Can anyone give me alternatives to Palm Oil which can be used apart from Coconut Oil which will give the soap hardness? Any tips?


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## LBussy

divyadinesh07 said:


> Hi guys! Can anyone give me alternatives to Palm Oil which can be used apart from Coconut Oil which will give the soap hardness? Any tips?


It depends, what's your reason for wanting to remove the palm oil?


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## zolveria

lard , tallow, salt


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

zolveria said:


> lard , tallow, salt


 
I agree with lard and tallow, but salt is not a substitute for palm oil!  You can certainly use it to increase the hardness, but only to a degree.


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## shunt2011

I agree with TEG Lard, Tallow. Salt is not a replacement but an additive that will assist in making the soap a bit harder.


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## Lion Of Judah

Babassu or PKO ..... for those that don't use animal fats.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Lion Of Judah said:


> Babassu or PKO ..... for those that don't use animal fats.


 
Those would add to the cleansing, so also not replacements for palm.  They can replace CO, though.


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## Susie

OP- PKO replaces CO for hardness, not Palm Oil.  Palm oil is in the same category as lard and tallow.  Which will give you good hard bars of soap.  

I am wondering, however, which type of "hardness" you are looking for, fast unmolding or long lasting bars.


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## LBussy

I'm still wondering _why_ the OP wants to replace it - which would necessarily shape the answer.  Doncha think?


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## valerieinthegallery

I don't want to speak for divyadinesh07, but a lot of people prefer not to use palm oil because of environmental concerns. 

I myself have been experimenting with animal oil-free and palm-free recipes and have yet to find a great base recipe with the hardness that I want that isn't too drying, etc. Lard and tallow are awesome in soap, and it's hard to replicate that with plant-based oils, so it's definitely a learning experience! The closest I have come is shea butter, which has been wonderful in adding hardness and also counteracting some of the drying effects of coconut oil, but not perfect, and it's expensive!


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## dixiedragon

Lard or tallow. You can replace the palm with the same amount of lard or tallow (run through a lye calculator though). You can also use cocoa butter, shea butter, and beeswax to increase hardness, but you can't just plug it right in. You would basically need to build a new recipe.


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## valerieinthegallery

dixiedragon said:


> Lard or tallow. You can replace the palm with the same amount of lard or tallow (run through a lye calculator though). You can also use cocoa butter, shea butter, and beeswax to increase hardness, but you can't just plug it right in. You would basically need to build a new recipe.




Right! Any time you "replace" an oil with a different oil, you need to run it through a lye calculator. I was taking the question not to mean "Can you just switch this out for this without making adjustments?" but rather "What other oil has similar properties as palm?"


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## Susie

LBussy said:


> I'm still wondering _why_ the OP wants to replace it - which would necessarily shape the answer.  Doncha think?



It should, however, not necessarily.  

If they want to replace it for environmental concerns, then, no, it won't shape the answer.  If they are thinking that PO and PKO are the same thing, then they need to learn it is not. If they want "hardness" because they are having trouble unmolding, then it is one answer, if they want a longer lasting bar, then it is another.  

So, while "why" is a good place to start, it does not necessarily give the "correct" answer to the "correct" question.  But we have to have the correct question first.


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## zolveria

I was thinking Salt Bar 



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I agree with lard and tallow, but salt is not a substitute for palm oil!  You can certainly use it to increase the hardness, but only to a degree.


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## PinkCupcake

Chiming in with another vote for lard. Since I started using lard, I haven't even opened a completely full 7-lb tub of palm. Lard makes my soaps hard and white, with a creamy lather. It also makes my soaps slower to trace, which is nice.


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## IrishLass

divyadinesh07 said:


> Hi guys! Can anyone give me alternatives to Palm Oil which can be used apart from Coconut Oil which will give the soap hardness? Any tips?


 
I was going to answer one way (tallow and lard), but as I read your question for a second time, as well as all the answers, I stopped myself because I felt that something important needed to be clarified and/or established first.....

Are you looking for a palm-free alternative to Coconut Oil, or rather something other than Palm Oil to use along with Coconut oil to make a hard bar? (the more I read your question, the more it seems I can take it both ways, lol)

If you are going to use Coconut Oil in your formula and are simply asking if there is something other than Palm Oil to use along with the CO to help contribute to a hard bar, then the following are your friends: tallow, lard, and/or any of the harder butters such as cocoa butter, mango butter, illipe butter, kokum butter, etc.... 

If, on the other hand, you are looking for a good sub for coconut oil, then Palm Kernel Oil (PKO) and Babassu are your friends.

And just in case there you are confusing Palm Oil with Palm Kernel oil and are in any way placing either one on the same level playing field with each other and/or with Coconut Oil, then you need to know that only Palm Kernel Oil (PKO) can be subbed for Coconut Oil. The only thing that Palm Oil has in common with Palm Kernel Oil is that they come from the same tree and have the word 'Palm' in their title. Palm Oil comes from the flesh of the palm fruit and Palm Kernel Oil comes from the pit or kernel of the fruit and they produce totally different results in soap.


IrishLass


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## jenny1271

Cupuacu Butter has bar qualities of 54 0 44 0 43, which is comparable to Palm Oil's qualities 50 1 49 1 49. So, the same amount of cupuacu would make a harder bar of soap without pushing up creaminess quite so much.

Here are some more possibilities of oils that have bar qualities similar to Palm.


Shea Butter 45 0 54 0 45
Tallow Deer 45 1 48 1 44
Coffee Bean Oil, green 46 0 50 0 46
Mowrah Butter 46 0 51 0 46
Palmolein 46 1 54 1 45
Mango Seed Butter 49 0 48 0 49
Kpangnan Butter 50 0 50 0 50
Palm Oil 50 1 49 1 49
Red Palm Butter 50 1 49 1 49
Sal Butter 50 0 42 0 50
Saw Palmetto Extract 50 40 40 40 10
Tallow Sheep 51 14 31 14 37
Saw Palmetto Oil 53 42 36 42 11
Cupuacu Butter 54 0 44 0 43
Walmart GV Shortening 54 5 44 5 49
Ghee, any bovine 55 15 22 15 40
Milk Fat, any bovine 55 15 22 15 40
Tallow Beef 58 8 40 8 50


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## Seawolfe

I wanted to make a palm-free, animal fat free soap, and had good results using 10% cocoa butter and 2% beeswax.


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## topofmurrayhill

If by chance you are committed to veggie formulations, then there is no replacement for palm, period.

You can, of course, still make palm-free soaps. You can resort to stearic oils like tropical butters instead of palmitic, but this is an expensive kludge rather than a replacement.

If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.

The point is not to stop using palm oil. The point is not to over-use it and to manage production in a sustainable fashion. Overusing it means stuff like cooking oil when obviously there are countless options for that.

But actually, Americans don't really use palm oil for that. Most of it is used for food in Asia and Europe. And even the big corporations that make soap are only using a small percentage of palm oil production for that. Very little goes to soap, very little goes to the USA.

Finally, the amount that crafters are using is practically zero. Crafters have done NOTHING to create the problem and don't need to take ANY responsibility for it and cannot do ANYTHING to solve it and are among the few people who have a legitimate use for palm oil because we are not frying fish in it. In our application, like I said...

There's no veggie replacement for palm oil.

So maybe others should cool it, but if anyone has a right to contribute to the employment of workers in the palm industry it is us.


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## divyadinesh07

Hi everyone thanks for the responses. I was asking for alternatives to Palm Oil due to environmental concerns. And preferably veggie alternatives .
All your responses have been helpful


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## LBussy

topofmurrayhill said:


> If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.


I am the very last person (generally) to get all bent about such things, but I think maybe you've missed the point while explaining how others have - not trying to start a fight, just explaining how I see such concerns:

I completely agree with your assessment of the true direct fiscal impact of a cottage-industry making a change.  What if I said (and honestly I often do) that my styrofoam plate isn't going to make a difference till the rest of the world changes?  What if I say my air conditioner's refrigerant is a drop in a drop of a drop of a bucket compared to commercial uses?  What if I say you can't die from a couple of milligrams of lead in my paint?

People who believe there should be a change are being dishonest with themselves if they do not start by making the change themselves.  Otherwise they could very reasonably be called hypocrites.  Look at it on the global scale:  The US has (finally) cleaned up it's act environmentally in many ways AFTER benefitting from lose regulation and a general apathy towards the environment.  The Chinese look at us when we tell them not to pollute and they say: "easy for you to say, look what _you_ did to get where you are!"

So, if a person tells me they are vegan, I expect them to act the part.  If presented with evidence that a product they use is somehow the result of cruelty to animals I would reasonably expect them to avoid it's use or I would rightfully consider them a hypocrite.  When Al Gore's home electricity bills exceeded that of many small towns, yet he was out preaching about global warming, I and many others considered him the worst kind of hypocrite.  Even if one person can't make a direct difference, they still need to be true to their beliefs.

Remember:







(Lest anyone consider this my own form of personal belief statement regarding Palm Oil, it is not.  I rather think all things will find a balance on their own.  If that results in humanity being wiped off the earth then that too is what must happen.  I eat meat and use palm oil because I want to.)


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## valerieinthegallery

LBussy said:


> Even if one person can't make a direct difference, they still need to be true to their beliefs.



:clap:


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## topofmurrayhill

LBussy said:


> People who believe there should be a change are being dishonest with themselves if they do not start by making the change themselves. Otherwise they could very reasonably be called hypocrites.



I totally agree, but I was making a subtler point. There are legitimate uses for palm oil, and there are uses for it that should be mitigated. Making soap is a legitimate use, because palm oil is uniquely suited to the product and there is no practical replacement in the realm of vegetable oil.

Nobody is saying that the palm oil industry should be shut down. That would be an over-reaction that would cause a lot of human suffering and needlessly deprive the world of a useful product. There are those who rightfully should be among the customers that keep this industry alive, and WE are among them.

Not very much palm oil goes even into commercial soap production. This is distinct from using palm olein as cooking oil when there are countless alternatives that work just as well. This resource is being abused in places like China and the EU.

We are becoming a nation of faddists, and it's difficult to respect it when I see so little thought going into it. Then you get stuff like people being anti-GMO but they stare blankly if you ask why they would be against cisgenic modification and not just transgenic, or how they propose to feed the world on organic produce. You get chemophobia and the the Food Babe cult of ignorance and the anti-vaxx conspiracy crowd.

Coming back around to your first statement, there's no cause to respect the approach of everyone who thinks there needs to be a change.


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## kchaystack

topofmurrayhill said:


> If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.



While I agree that most people who object to palm oil do so as a knee jerk reaction to information they have heard - I think this is kinda harsh.  Very few individuals have their minds changed by insults. 



topofmurrayhill said:


> But actually, Americans don't really use palm oil for that. Most of it is used for food in Asia and Europe. And even the big corporations that make soap are only using a small percentage of palm oil production for that. Very little goes to soap, very little goes to the USA.



The problem is the manufacturers of food in the us are increasing their usage.  Look at the ingredients to you peanut butter (even the all natural ones), your coffee creamer, your sandwich bread...  So, while we might not use the bulk, the US is increasing its demand.  



topofmurrayhill said:


> Finally, the amount that crafters are using is practically zero. Crafters have done NOTHING to create the problem and don't need to take ANY responsibility for it and cannot do ANYTHING to solve it and are among the few people who have a legitimate use for palm oil because we are not frying fish in it. In our application, like I said...
> 
> There's no veggie replacement for palm oil.
> 
> So maybe others should cool it, but if anyone has a right to contribute to the employment of workers in the palm industry it is us.



Well, just because we as a group are not significant part of the problem, does not mean we shouldn't be trying to be part of the solution.  

Now that solution is not completely giving up palm oil.  If the palm oil industry were to collapse, it would devastate the economy of several very poor nations, and would mean the families that depend on the very meager income they make for hours and hours of backbreaking labor would no longer have that income.  

So, we should be vocal proponents of sustainable palm.  We need to make sure that our dollars, few that they really are, support efforts of RSPO and other organizations that are trying to pressure sustainable practices, and to keep pressure on those organizations (RSPO and the like) so they keep improving their auditing and certification processes.  It would also be good to donate to RSPO when possible to help fund them. 

Yes it is a lot of work.  But I think it is worth it so we leave the world in a better place than when we got it.

After you have done your research, if you still want to avoid palm, I don't see this as a bad thing, or you being 'misguided'.  There are palm free recipes out there.  You will have to accept that your bars will be different.  They might not be as hard or last as long.  They might need a longer cure.  The other ingredients you use might be more expensive.  It will still be perfectly serviceable soap, will get you clean, not make your skin tight and all the other things we have come to expect with soap.


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## topofmurrayhill

kchaystack said:


> While I agree that most people who object to palm oil do so as a knee jerk reaction to information they have heard - I think this is kinda harsh.  Very few individuals have their minds changed by insults.



Sorry, fair point. That was spilling over from frustration with somewhat more misguided groups or potentially harmful causes.


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## dixiedragon

topofmurrayhill said:


> If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.
> 
> The point is not to stop using palm oil. The point is not to over-use it and to manage production in a sustainable fashion. Overusing it means stuff like cooking oil when obviously there are countless options for that.
> 
> But actually, Americans don't really use palm oil for that. Most of it is used for food in Asia and Europe. And even the big corporations that make soap are only using a small percentage of palm oil production for that. Very little goes to soap, very little goes to the USA.
> 
> Finally, the amount that crafters are using is practically zero. Crafters have done NOTHING to create the problem and don't need to take ANY responsibility for it and cannot do ANYTHING to solve it and are among the few people who have a legitimate use for palm oil because we are not frying fish in it. In our application, like I said...
> 
> There's no veggie replacement for palm oil.
> 
> So maybe others should cool it, but if anyone has a right to contribute to the employment of workers in the palm industry it is us.


 
Your point would be valid if a poster was berating somebody for using palm oil. Since that's not what happened here, your point is not valid. 

Just like it would be rude for me to berate somebody for being "misguided" by using palm instead of tallow or lard.

And BTW, many times the only thing that creates change is wide spread abhorrence of something. The only thing that put a dent in the ivory trade is wide spread abhorrence of ivory significantly shrinking the market. Same thing applies to fur and whale products.


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## LBussy

dixiedragon said:


> And BTW, many times the only thing that creates change is wide spread abhorrence of something. The only thing that put a dent in the ivory trade is wide spread abhorrence of ivory significantly shrinking the market. Same thing applies to fur and whale products.


Reminds me of the world's shortest joke:

"A baby seal walks into a club ... "

Yeah it's a horrible joke but we're in danger of teetering off the side here and someone needed to do it.


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## kchaystack

topofmurrayhill said:


> Sorry, fair point. That was spilling over from frustration with somewhat more misguided groups or potentially harmful causes.



No worries, I understand.  

I was browsing YouTube and found a video promoting a artisan soap making company.  I was interested in seeing how they did things, and had to stop about 10 min in because of all the snake oil that was flowing.  I would almost rather listen to stick blending than some of the claims they were making.  

I like to present information I have found not only to help people who have the same questions I had when I started but also maybe help those who sell will have some defense against the the people who would attack them for what they use.

Like I said, I agree with most of what you said.


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## lenarenee

topofmurrayhill said:


> If by chance you are committed to veggie formulations, then there is no replacement for palm, period.
> 
> You can, of course, still make palm-free soaps. You can resort to stearic oils like tropical butters instead of palmitic, but this is an expensive kludge rather than a replacement.
> 
> If you are avoiding palm because of environmental concerns, I understand that everyone has the right to be misguided in their own way.
> 
> The point is not to stop using palm oil. The point is not to over-use it and to manage production in a sustainable fashion. Overusing it means stuff like cooking oil when obviously there are countless options for that.
> 
> But actually, Americans don't really use palm oil for that. Most of it is used for food in Asia and Europe. And even the big corporations that make soap are only using a small percentage of palm oil production for that. Very little goes to soap, very little goes to the USA.
> 
> Finally, the amount that crafters are using is practically zero. Crafters have done NOTHING to create the problem and don't need to take ANY responsibility for it and cannot do ANYTHING to solve it and are among the few people who have a legitimate use for palm oil because we are not frying fish in it. In our application, like I said...
> 
> There's no veggie replacement for palm oil.
> 
> So maybe others should cool it, but if anyone has a right to contribute to the employment of workers in the palm industry it is us.



Would you mind sharing the sources for the info?  I would really appreciate it as it differs immensely from the research I've done, particularly since many sources state that palm use/consumption will or already has outpaced production....and all the economic and environmental consequences of that info.

Use of crafters using palm is increasing greatly; especially now that palm wax is gaining popularity with chandlers. 

Personally, I won't use palm until the RSPO has a much better success rate at ensuring what is certified RSPO, actually is sustainably produced. I think it will take many more years before they have the money and workforce to accomplish what they've set out to do.

I look forward to the work in west Africa; where people are trying to establish sustainable palm farms. I think once ebola becomes preventable, west Africa could be a major supplier of palm.

Curiously enough, when I started soaping about 18 months ago, I intended on using only organic and food quality ingredients. My view has changed greatly to the point where I now cringe at using "food" to make soap....including salt (especially dead sea salt) and olive oil. I now happily use lard and tallow and while it is "food", it is largely a waste product and plenty of it is thrown into the landfills. At first I had a difficult time giving it up, but quickly found lard and tallow add more to soap than palm.


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## valerieinthegallery

lenarenee said:


> Curiously enough, when I started soaping about 18 months ago, I intended on using only organic and food quality ingredients. My view has changed greatly to the point where I now cringe at using "food" to make soap....including salt (especially dead sea salt) and olive oil. I now happily use lard and tallow and while it is "food", it is largely a waste product and plenty of it is thrown into the landfills. At first I had a difficult time giving it up, but quickly found lard and tallow add more to soap than palm.



Similar here. I am especially interested in that you don't use olive oil. Is that correct? The reason I ask is that I VERY rarely will see soap anywhere that doesn't have olive oil so I have it in my brain that it is just what you use. I am finding, however, that I am very sensitive to the smell of it and can smell it through fragrance oil (and I use light olive oil too - a much milder scent than most!) and am wondering what you use in place of it? 

I really want to use lard, but am having a hard time wrapping my head around it, which is silly, I know, as I eat meat. I have used it once and it was awesome.


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## kchaystack

Here are some articles that helped me decide how I would use palm.

http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...s-you-need-to-know-about-sustainable-palm-oil

http://www.wwf.org.au/our_work/saving_the_natural_world/forests/palm_oil/

http://blog.conservation.org/2014/04/why-palm-oil-isnt-the-enemy/


US consumption of palm oil in 2013 (this is the latest data I could find):  Page 10 has the infographic, US uses about 2% of world wide production

http://assets.panda.org/downloads/po_scorecard_2013_latest.pdf

The problem the plan to not use palm until the RSPO is more successful, is that they can not do more without you.  They need your support, and your pressure to keep making progress.


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## kchaystack

valerieinthegallery said:


> I really want to use lard, but am having a hard time wrapping my head around it, which is silly, I know, as I eat meat. I have used it once and it was awesome.



This might help.  Once you have turned the lard into soap, it is not lard anymore.  The amount of lard that is left over in your SF is less that you get on your hands when you make a pork chop!


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## lenarenee

If you are determined to use lard, you may just need to give yourself time to get used to the idea, that's all. It took me a year to get over palm despite knowing I didn't want to contribute to the global need for it. (I've used about 50 lbs of lard since November, and saved the need for 50 lbs of palm)

(To all SMF members and readers; this is not an attempt to guilt trip anyone who uses palm. I answer to my own need to not actively contribute to increasing the threat to many endangered creatures.)

As for Olive oil - I just don't like it in soap. For one reason - most supplies of olive oil are adulterated. In the beginning I bought cheap Wal Mart oo, and in a year, those bars (used 30% oo) developed dos. Then I started buying the oo that was tested and proven to be 100% pure oo. No dos, but I found the higher the percentage of oo used, the longer it took for the bar to cure and become the best it could be. 

Also, knowing that olive oil is a very healthy choice for food use (except cooking), coupled with the fact that it has a limited supply and often subject the the whims of weather, I decided I'd rather save it for human consumption. 

I'm happy to replace it with high oleic safflower oil, which I think makes a silkier lather. However, I'd like it to be even silkier, so that could change. Haven't tried sunflower oil yet because I haven't found it locally.

I like avocado oil, but live here in drought stricken California. Avocado and its oil should be saved for food, especially since it takes a lot of water to farm them.

I've played with rice bran oil, and liked it....but can no longer find it locally.

My current favorite recipe is a mix of tallow/lard, 10% safflower, 5 % castor.


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## Susie

I used palm a couple of times.  I just really did not care for the soap.  I have since become aware of the problems surrounding the growing of it.  I am not here to beat a drum for any organizations, however, I am dealing with it in my own way.  I don't buy bread or many other foods that contain palm oil.  I am really careful to know what is in most of what I eat and use due to allergies, so reading labels is already a well established habit.  I don't use palm oil in soap.  I just try to avoid it.  Just one person trying to not make a problem worse in a very quiet way.  

I like lard.  I know if it were not for folks buying it, it would be tossed in landfills, as it is not the reason that the hogs are being raised.  Tallow makes sense for that reason also.  I also happen to think that lard is the best thing that ever happened to soap.(my tallow soaps are not cured yet)


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## valerieinthegallery

kchaystack said:


> This might help.  Once you have turned the lard into soap, it is not lard anymore.  The amount of lard that is left over in your SF is less that you get on your hands when you make a pork chop!



And actually, probably less, as I do HP and I cook it with only a 0.5 - 1.0% superfat and then add some shea butter after the cook to superfat it. 

I don't find using it gross or anything - it's more about wondering if I am participating in the animal cruelty that happens in factory farms, as I'm not sure that I would want try to find local lard to render, etc. 

Lots to think about! I love hearing everyone's thoughts!


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## valerieinthegallery

lenarenee said:


> If you are determined to use lard, you may just need to give yourself time to get used to the idea, that's all. It took me a year to get over palm despite knowing I didn't want to contribute to the global need for it. (I've used about 50 lbs of lard since November, and saved the need for 50 lbs of palm)
> 
> (To all SMF members and readers; this is not an attempt to guilt trip anyone who uses palm. I answer to my own need to not actively contribute to increasing the threat to many endangered creatures.)
> 
> As for Olive oil - I just don't like it in soap. For one reason - most supplies of olive oil are adulterated. In the beginning I bought cheap Wal Mart oo, and in a year, those bars (used 30% oo) developed dos. Then I started buying the oo that was tested and proven to be 100% pure oo. No dos, but I found the higher the percentage of oo used, the longer it took for the bar to cure and become the best it could be.
> 
> Also, knowing that olive oil is a very healthy choice for food use (except cooking), coupled with the fact that it has a limited supply and often subject the the whims of weather, I decided I'd rather save it for human consumption.
> 
> I'm happy to replace it with high oleic safflower oil, which I think makes a silkier lather. However, I'd like it to be even silkier, so that could change. Haven't tried sunflower oil yet because I haven't found it locally.
> 
> I like avocado oil, but live here in drought stricken California. Avocado and its oil should be saved for food, especially since it takes a lot of water to farm them.
> 
> I've played with rice bran oil, and liked it....but can no longer find it locally.
> 
> My current favorite recipe is a mix of tallow/lard, 10% safflower, 5 % castor.



Interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I was wondering about sunflower oil as a substitute because I can get it locally at a great price and it has no smell whatsoever, that I can discern anyway.


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## lenarenee

kchaystack said:


> Here are some articles that helped me decide how I would use palm.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/sustaina...s-you-need-to-know-about-sustainable-palm-oil
> 
> http://www.wwf.org.au/our_work/saving_the_natural_world/forests/palm_oil/
> 
> http://blog.conservation.org/2014/04/why-palm-oil-isnt-the-enemy/
> 
> 
> US consumption of palm oil in 2013 (this is the latest data I could find):  Page 10 has the infographic, US uses about 2% of world wide production
> 
> http://assets.panda.org/downloads/po_scorecard_2013_latest.pdf
> 
> The problem the plan to not use palm until the RSPO is more successful, is that they can not do more without you.  They need your support, and your pressure to keep making progress.




Thank you for the information; I'll read those soon.

The problem the plan to not use palm until the RSPO is more successful,  is that they can not do more without you.  They need your support, and  your pressure to keep making progress.[/QUOTE]

^This...yes I can understand that. However, in the meantime, those RSPO dollars are also supporting "fraudulent" palm. While the RSPO has many farmers signed into sustainability practices, there's only a tiny percentage of those that are monitored by the RSPO (lack of funds/workers). In other words; while  RSPO palm is certified as sustainable, only a tiny percentage is actually monitored and proven sustainable. The majority of RSPO palm only has the farmers' promise that it is sustainable.

(Given the conditions many of these farmers live in,  should the need arise to fudge on their promise in order to feed their families, I suspect they would do whatever was necessary. And I certainly don't criticize them for doing so.  If it came down to basic survival, I would choose to feed my children and not worry so much about the long term survival of animal/insect world. )

This is why I have a hard time buying palm. And its why I really hope palm farming takes off in west Africa; it has the potential to be a game changer in so many ways.


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## lenarenee

valerieinthegallery said:


> And actually, probably less, as I do HP and I cook it with only a 0.5 - 1.0% superfat and then add some shea butter after the cook to superfat it.
> 
> I don't find using it gross or anything - it's more about wondering if I am participating in the animal cruelty that happens in factory farms, as I'm not sure that I would want try to find local lard to render, etc.
> 
> Lots to think about! I love hearing everyone's thoughts!



As a farmer's daughter who lived the Charlotte's Web scenario, this concerns me too. Until my father cooperated, I insisted on being at the birth of every single pig possible so I could grab up the runt (not to be indelicate, but there was a hatchet in the barn for a reason) There was no need to kill any runts when I was willing to hand raise them until strong enough to return to the farm. 
I made sure he promised that none of my food came from the piggies I raised.

Anyway, for now my thinking is: in the US there aren't going to be any changes in the slaughterhouse any time soon. And the animals will still be processed. I can't stop that. I eat meat. I eat less than I used to and try to buy humanely raised. 

But I can choose to not increase the need for palm - thereby increasing the need to destroy more habitat. As I said earlier, if we haven't reached the edge already, the demand for palm will very soon exceed production. And it will not be my soap or groceries that took it over the edge.


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## valerieinthegallery

lenarenee said:


> As a farmer's daughter who lived the Charlotte's Web scenario, this concerns me too. Until my father cooperated, I insisted on being at the birth of every single pig possible so I could grab up the runt (not to be indelicate, but there was a hatchet in the barn for a reason) There was no need to kill any runts when I was willing to hand raise them until strong enough to return to the farm.
> I made sure he promised that none of my food came from the piggies I raised.
> 
> Anyway, for now my thinking is: in the US there aren't going to be any changes in the slaughterhouse any time soon. And the animals will still be processed. I can't stop that. I eat meat. I eat less than I used to and try to buy humanely raised.
> 
> But I can choose to not increase the need for palm - thereby increasing the need to destroy more habitat. As I said earlier, if we haven't reached the edge already, the demand for palm will very soon exceed production. And it will not be my soap or groceries that took it over the edge.



You sound like a lovely person and I am glad your father honored that part of you growing up! Funny, I was just talking about Charlotte's Web/E.B. White the other day with my daughter when we were trying to think of well-known people who were from Maine. 

So.. this brings up other questions for me, but I think it would be best suited as a new thread - I don't want to veer off-course too much. 

Thank you so much for your candor! Lots to chew on.


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## Susie

I have to say, though, that there is true irony in the increasing US demand for palm oil being caused by the vegans, vegetarians, and other "crunchy" types.


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## topofmurrayhill

valerieinthegallery said:


> Interesting. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I was wondering about sunflower oil as a substitute because I can get it locally at a great price and it has no smell whatsoever, that I can discern anyway.



Be careful about this Valerie. I believe she was thinking of the high-oleic sunflower oil, which is a special type that was developed through plant breeding.

HO sunflower is a very good oleic soaping oil in the same ballpark as olive oil. I get it from SC and use it quite a lot. It's light colored, essentially odorless and low in linoleic acid.

Unfortunately it's pretty likely that your local suppliers of sunflower oil have the ordinary linoleic variety. I would not consider that suitable for soaping, and most others would probably say it's only suitable in small quantities.

The important point is that these are two entirely different oils even though both are produced by sunflowers. They will produce entirely different results, so there needs to be explicit labeling to tell you what you're buying.


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## valerieinthegallery

topofmurrayhill said:


> Be careful about this Valerie. I believe she was thinking of the high-oleic sunflower oil, which is a special type that was developed through plant breeding.
> 
> HO sunflower is a very good oleic soaping oil in the same ballpark as olive oil. I get it from SC and use it quite a lot. It's light colored, essentially odorless and low in linoleic acid.
> 
> Unfortunately it's pretty likely that your local suppliers of sunflower oil have the ordinary linoleic variety. I would not consider that suitable for soaping, and most others would probably say it's only suitable in small quantities.
> 
> The important point is that these are two entirely different oils even though both are produced by sunflowers. They will produce entirely different results, so there needs to be explicit labeling to tell you what you're buying.



Right! I was thinking of using either the linoleic in small amounts just to sub some of the olive oil, or use larger amounts of the HO sunflower which I can get still cheaper than olive oil.


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## Saponista

Regular sunflower oil used in high quantities makes really soft sticky horrible soap. I learnt the hard way. However, I shoved the bars in a cupboard for a year and now they have hardened up properly the soap is really quite nice. They haven't developed dos either.


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## cmzaha

jenny1271 said:


> Cupuacu Butter has bar qualities of 54 0 44 0 43, which is comparable to Palm Oil's qualities 50 1 49 1 49. So, the same amount of cupuacu would make a harder bar of soap without pushing up creaminess quite so much.
> 
> Here are some more possibilities of oils that have bar qualities similar to Palm.
> 
> 
> Shea Butter 45 0 54 0 45
> Tallow Deer 45 1 48 1 44
> Coffee Bean Oil, green 46 0 50 0 46
> Mowrah Butter 46 0 51 0 46
> Palmolein 46 1 54 1 45
> Mango Seed Butter 49 0 48 0 49
> Kpangnan Butter 50 0 50 0 50
> Palm Oil 50 1 49 1 49
> Red Palm Butter 50 1 49 1 49
> Sal Butter 50 0 42 0 50
> Saw Palmetto Extract 50 40 40 40 10
> Tallow Sheep 51 14 31 14 37
> Saw Palmetto Oil 53 42 36 42 11
> Cupuacu Butter 54 0 44 0 43
> Walmart GV Shortening 54 5 44 5 49
> Ghee, any bovine 55 15 22 15 40
> Milk Fat, any bovine 55 15 22 15 40
> Tallow Beef 58 8 40 8 50


Forget the Ghee, it really stinks in soap
I use a lot of sunflower and it has never come down with dos. I do keep it in the 15-20% range


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## grayterisk

*Saw Palmetto Extract*

I am VERY allergic to coconut oil and tree nuts so i dont want to risk babassu oil. I've created a soap recipe suited for me but it calls for saw palmetto extract. Where can i buy saw palmetto extract for CP soap making? Please help!! thank you.


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## Lion Of Judah

grayterisk said:


> I am VERY allergic to coconut oil and tree nuts so i dont want to risk babassu oil. I've created a soap recipe suited for me but it calls for saw palmetto extract. Where can i buy saw palmetto extract for CP soap making? Please help!! thank you.




have you tried any of the animal fats?


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## Dorymae

Just wanted to add in the US the oil you are looking for is sold as a supplement product in small quantities like essential oil. To buy in any quantity will be expensive.


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## grayterisk

I am vegan, organic, and i live in Alabama, USA.


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## IrishLass

grayterisk said:


> I am looking to make soap without CO because i get a horrible rash from coconut oil soaps and lotions. i've been allergy tested for coconut and it is for sure the CO that is the issue. I need a tree nut free recipe as well. *sighs
> I have finally come up with one on soapcalc but it requires saw palmetto extract. Anybody know where to get a pure grade saw palmetto for soapmaking online?


 
Interesting! I confess to never have seen how much myristic and lauric acids were naturally contained in saw palmetto. Cool beans!

As for where to find a pure grade for soap-making.....I confess I don't know the answer to that. The only saw palmetto I have ever seen is the dry form or oil form sold as a supplement in capsules in small bottles at the health food store. I really don't now how much luck you'll have finding it in the bulk quantities that would be needed for soap-making since I've never seen it offered for sale at any of the soap-making supply sites that I buy my oils from.

For what it's worth, if you live anywhere near Georgia or Florida in the US, you might be able to obtain it in bulk form since the herb grows profusely there and is extracted/manufactured there.

Hopefully more people that are 'in the know' will chime in soon.


IrishLass


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## grayterisk

Dorymae said:


> Just wanted to add in the US the oil you are looking for is sold as a supplement product in small quantities like essential oil. To buy in any quantity will be expensive.



I realize that and I am okay with paying for quality product. but all since i want pure saw palmetto a supplement wouldnt be the answer since they contain added glycerins, alcohols, and cellulose. I've been investigating them all week but haven't found one pure saw palmetto.


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## grayterisk

Lion Of Judah said:


> have you tried any of the animal fats?



I only use veggie base oils thank you. I will be using my recipe with goat milk to make milk soap. these soaps will be going in my hair as well so animal fats arent the best because of buildup as well.


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## cmzaha

lenarenee said:


> If you are determined to use lard, you may just need to give yourself time to get used to the idea, that's all. It took me a year to get over palm despite knowing I didn't want to contribute to the global need for it. (I've used about 50 lbs of lard since November, and saved the need for 50 lbs of palm)
> 
> (To all SMF members and readers; this is not an attempt to guilt trip anyone who uses palm. I answer to my own need to not actively contribute to increasing the threat to many endangered creatures.)
> 
> As for Olive oil - I just don't like it in soap. For one reason - most supplies of olive oil are adulterated. In the beginning I bought cheap Wal Mart oo, and in a year, those bars (used 30% oo) developed dos. Then I started buying the oo that was tested and proven to be 100% pure oo. No dos, but I found the higher the percentage of oo used, the longer it took for the bar to cure and become the best it could be.
> 
> Also, knowing that olive oil is a very healthy choice for food use (except cooking), coupled with the fact that it has a limited supply and often subject the the whims of weather, I decided I'd rather save it for human consumption.
> 
> I'm happy to replace it with high oleic safflower oil, which I think makes a silkier lather. However, I'd like it to be even silkier, so that could change. Haven't tried sunflower oil yet because I haven't found it locally.
> 
> I like avocado oil, but live here in drought stricken California. Avocado and its oil should be saved for food, especially since it takes a lot of water to farm them.
> 
> I've played with rice bran oil, and liked it....but can no longer find it locally.
> 
> My current favorite recipe is a mix of tallow/lard, 10% safflower, 5 % castor.


Not knowing where in California you live in if it is So CA you can buy Sunflower HO at Cibaria Soap Supplies in Riverside and Rice Bran in 35 lb totes at Restaurant Depot


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## LBussy

Vegan, organic, AND you are allergic to nuts ... yeah, good luck.


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## grayterisk

LBussy said:


> Vegan, organic, AND you are allergic to nuts ... yeah, good luck.



Been making my own products for over 4 years, no issues finding ingredients until the saw palmetto incident. i just want it to saponify.


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## galaxyMLP

It is likely that you will be best using a bastile soap with olive oil and castor. That's about it though. I don't think castor is a tree nut at least... Maybe some high oleic sunflower oil too? But that so close to olive oil it may not be worth it...

ETA: A thought for you may also be "salting out" your soap and adding back in glycerin. This would likely remove most of the allergens and since your allergy is not life threatening, it may be worth it. It does take forever though. But there's a great thread on it.


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## grayterisk

this is my recipe, made for me. soapcalc pdf linked below for coconut and tree nut free soap recipes. i myself am not allergic to nuts but i make soap for people that are. my shop is called made4hypersensitives and I help those people out that are suffering from dermatitis due to soap. i have burns on me from coconut oil soaps, dawn dish liquid, germx, etc. if i can find the saw palmetto i will be able to provide to those and are coconut and tree nut free. I am also using olive oil and palm oil but saw palmetto is what gives it such great lather and bubbles. 

View attachment tree nut allergy soap base.pdf


View attachment allergy friendly soap base.pdf


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## galaxyMLP

The thing is, saw palmetto is related to palm trees. If someone is allergic to palm, or other tree nuts, I'd say it's likely that they would be allergic to saw palmetto.

 Also, saw palmetto oil is extremely expensive and not going to be available in large quantities. I used to work at a food testing lab and we got about 2 oz of the stuff once to do a fatty acid profile. It also contains some very long chain fatty acids that are not listed in soap calc in higher that "normal" oil quantities. That may effect the soap in ways you are not expecting. And if I'm not mistaken, it is also high in unsaponifiables. I know it didn't dissolve like normal fats in our solvent extraction procedure.


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## grayterisk

galaxyMLP said:


> The thing is, saw palmetto is related to palm trees. If someone is allergic to palm, or other tree nuts, I'd say it's likely that they would be allergic to saw palmetto.
> 
> Also, saw palmetto oil is extremely expensive and not going to be available in large quantities. I used to work at a food testing lab and we got about 2 oz of the stuff once to do a fatty acid profile. It also contains some very long chain fatty acids that are not listed in soap calc in higher that "normal" oil quantities. That may effect the soap in ways you are not expecting. And if I'm not mistaken, it is also high in unsaponifiables. I know it didn't dissolve like normal fats in our solvent extraction procedure.




I ran it through the soapcalc. findings linked above. According to the cdc saw palmetto reactions or allergies are unheard of. babassu is more likely to cause a reaction. also, i couldnt find any reports of palm oil allergies.


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## galaxyMLP

I've just heard of people with tropical nut allergies but I failed to realize palm oil comes from the tree itself and not a nut. You sound pretty set on your recipe. I would just go with it then if you can find saw palmetto.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I can't open the pdf (it's just easier if you list the ingredients and their amounts) but one thing to bear in mind is that body soaps are not always good hair soaps. 

Another thing to bear in mind is that all soap will clean you, regardless of bubbles. Make your recipe without this unobtainium extract and it will clean you fine and dandy, even if it doesn't lather one bit. 

Also, if you're vegan you can't use the milk of a goat in the soap. As a vegetarian you could, but not as a vegan.


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## topofmurrayhill

grayterisk said:


> if i can find the saw palmetto i will be able to provide to those and are coconut and tree nut free. I am also using olive oil and palm oil but saw palmetto is what gives it such great lather and bubbles.



You can use laurel berry oil to get lather without tree nuts.

http://sinfullywholesome.com/laurel-berry-oil-canada-usa.html


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## not_ally

I got curious because I had never heard of saw palmetto in soap, and the stuff is incredibly expensive.  All of the products I saw were adulterated, most of them had to do with hair loss/restoration and prostrate function.  The only reference I saw to the pure oil was on an article on using the pure/stabilized oil for hair loss, and it said that the pure stuff is $100 an OUNCE.  Apparently it is extracted in tiny amounts from berries which can only be picked in a very small window of time, and it takes a huge amount of berries to make the oil, hence the price.

I realize that  you said you were willing to pay for a quality product, but based on that, your 1 lb soap batch would cost almost $250, it might a good idea to consider an alternative!

Laurel berry is expensive, too, but at $70/kg it is a bargain compared to that


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