# pH regulation of soap



## tlm884 (Nov 1, 2011)

I want to make a shampoo bar and don't want to have to have the hassle of using an ACV rinse. 

Could I do a hot process soap, and at the end of the cook add citric acid or borax to lower the pH of the soap back down ?


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## Fragola (Nov 1, 2011)

How much would you like to lower the pH ? Nine-ish may be achievable. 

But based on my experiments with liquid soap, you may not enjoy the result. Lower pH soap makes hair feel like straw.


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## tlm884 (Nov 1, 2011)

Ideally, a pH that matches that of the hair. However, it would be difficult to determine the exact pH and exactly how much citric acid to add. I know soap causes problems when pH strips are used and I don't want to invest in a pH meter. As low as I could go would be nice. 

But one question, shouldn't soap be closer to neutral because the lye and oils neutralize each other? 9 seems a little high for soap!


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## Fragola (Nov 1, 2011)

Based on what I have tried, a pH matching or close to the hair's is not achievable. It seems others have tried and failed, but personally - I prefer making my own mistakes ;P 

Also, smarter people than me say that skin/hair doesn't have pH, because pH can only be defined in a water based solution.

You could experiment with gradually increasing quantities of citric acid. And stop at the point where your soap turns into some sort of oily mud. By the way, coconut oil may behave better under low pH. 

Yes, the oils neutralize the lye, but the lye packs more punch, so the result isn't neutral after all. Normal soap has a pH _around _ 10.


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## IrishLass (Nov 1, 2011)

tlm884 said:
			
		

> But one question, shouldn't soap be closer to neutral because the lye and oils neutralize each other? 9 seems a little high for soap!



The normal pH of fully saponified and cured lye-based bar soaps ranges anywhere between about 9 at the low end, and up to about 10.5. Honest. The very definition of true soap is, "an alkali salt of a fatty acid", which means it will always be on the alkaline side of the pH scale. There is no such thing as a lye-based soap with a neutral pH. If the pH was neutral, it would no longer be soap- it would separate out of it's solid state and become a quivering mass of goo.


IrishLass


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## carebear (Nov 1, 2011)

Fragola said:
			
		

> Lower pH soap makes hair feel like straw.


hair prefers a lower pH. it doesn't like high pH.


hair prefers slightly acidic to neutral.  higher pH shampoos lift the cuticle of the hair shaft leaving it rough and fragile, and exposing the core to more damage.  soap also creates soap scum if the water is hard - and that will stick even more to the roughened strands creating a sticky tacky feel.

it's especially bad for color treated hair, as when you lift the cuticle the color washes away much faster.

an acid rinse can help, but it won't stop the loss of color nor is it enough for many people.

yet some manage to use it and like it (or say they do).  go figure.

and by its nature, the pH of soap is alkaline, as IL said.


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## soapbuddy (Nov 1, 2011)

If you add too much citric acid to lower the pH, you will end up with caustic, oily mess.


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## Fragola (Nov 1, 2011)

Not caustic, just oily


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## judymoody (Nov 1, 2011)

Have you considered syndet bars - they play nicely with most people's hair.

You can read more about them here: 

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2 ... rview.html


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## vjbakke (Nov 1, 2011)

ACV rinses benefit any shampoo bar or not. I don't use a shampoo bar but I do a rinse every other week or so. It is to help get built up and helps add shine. I would stick with a good shampoo bar recipe and deal with the rinses. you can't make soap do what it can't.


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## tlm884 (Nov 1, 2011)

I'm really liking the syndet bar idea. It is a lot more work though, so I may modify the recipe I have made up for shampoo bars to lower the castor down and use it as a regular soap and do some research into syndet bars!


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## armin (Nov 7, 2011)

*pH in the shampoo*

Now this is a wonderful topic. For many years people had no problems washing their hair with home made shampoo bars, but recently (historically speaking) neutral shampoo and soap was introduced. In fact this products are not soaps and they are not natural, not healthy either. Like any other detergent surfactant based and low pH will cause protein degeneration and slightly that leads to not only follicle degeneration and glandular modification but your cornea is at great risk as well! Remember "no-tears"? and that encourage you to keep your eyes open and get a very nice and well advertised amount of surfactants on your cornea. What a disaster!
Hair is a dead part of your body. Some people have a thicker hair, a different color and so on. Substances will alter the properties of your hair, it will make it more flexible, shiny, etc.
Now let's take a look at the facts. Imagine your hair shaft... this hair shaft goes into your epidermis (this  is the outer layer of your skin) the barrier, the protective layer of the skin. There are no nerves and no blood flow through your epidermis. The epidermis is composed of 4 to 5 layers which I am not going to describe here. Under the epidermis we have the dermis and our hair shaft goes in there too... and here we will find your hair muscle, sebaceous gland (that is imperative and you really need the oils from this gland but often they are modified by regular low pH lauryl based shampoos), your follicle, hair bulb and papilla. Pretty much substance are reaching here through diffusion. Your epidermis is fed by diffusion... since you have no blood flow or nerves... The amount and composition of liquids like sweat and oils are dictating your skin pH which normally is around 5.5.
Some companies in crisis and looking for new methods of selling their products came with this completely untested, unproved and disastrous idea to make cleaning products pH 5.5
Everything you put on your skin (soap let's say) even the pH of your product is higher or lower the skin will adjust in minutes after you rinse... 
If your shampoo bar is pH 9 or 10 let it be and close your eyes when you wash... no soap or detergent should get into your eyes anyways, better if it stings so you know to avoid it... you know the most dangerous killer is the silent one....
Your scalp pH will be regulated in a few minutes after you rinse and be worry free as pretty much nothing from a home made shampoo will penetrate your epidermis to negatively affect your hair follicle, bulb and glands... 
If you have a great recipe and your hair feels great don't worry about the pH if it's 9ish. 
If you rinse with acid like ACV of course the keratin will be softer and beside this I've noticed many oils will have different effect on your hair, like wheat germ oil will make your hair softer, stronger and shiny. But you have to find what your type of hair likes... We have different structure of the keratin, pigments and so on in our hair that makes it different and that's why we cannot say the hair in general likes a pH of 5.5 or an acid one or an alkaline one... 
Healthwise I will avoid surfactants and detergents by all means, and this is tested and proved. 

Good luck 
Armin


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## Fragola (Nov 7, 2011)

In conclusion, what is your position about ACV ? Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?

Also, you are saying that a pH 10 homemade shampoo won't penetrate your skin, while a syndet will ? I am curious why that would be the case ?

My personal opinion is that the pH only partly describes the interaction between a shampoo and the hair. And all this advertising revolving around the pH is golden hammer talk ("when you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail)".

A reason for that is what I mentioned above: smarter people than me say that pH is only defined in a water solution. When we're talking soap, we have water, soap, oils (both on the skin and in the soap). Adding to that, soap only dissolves into water to a very small degree, instead just swims around (which described through a complicated word which I don't remember). 

In fact, there's a lot of research regarding low pH bars, but then again, what you have in the test tube isn't the same that you have in the bath tube 




> For many years people had no problems washing their hair with home made shampoo bars, but recently (historically speaking) neutral shampoo and soap was introduced.


Very interesting point. I would be very curious to know if we can draw a line, either in space or in time and notice a meaningful difference.

Let's go grab our family album and compare our hair to that of our grandparents 

_(no need to take any of this literally)_


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## soapbuddy (Nov 7, 2011)

Fragola said:
			
		

> Let's go grab our family album and compare our hair to that of our grandparents


I will pass. I don't want my grandmother's hair. I don't want a bad hair day every day. Our ancestors didn't wash their hair every day.


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## fiddletree (Nov 7, 2011)

soapbuddy said:
			
		

> Fragola said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd actually love to have my grandmother's (evenmoreso, my greatgrandmother's hair.  My grandaddy actually has about a meter of it she chopped of 60 years ago or so. It's gorgeous!) And I only wash my hair about every 4 or 5 days and it's pretty happy and not dirty looking.  Even happier since I've been using my shampoo bar (pH 8.5-9) and ACV rinse.


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## Fragola (Nov 7, 2011)

> I will pass. I don't want my grandmother's hair. I don't want a bad hair day every day.


You will pass what ? Browsing through the family album ?

Or you did that already and reached the conclusion that you have a better looking hair than your grandmother's ( of course, we need to find a comparison at the same age) ?



> Our ancestors didn't wash their hair every day.


That's also worth considering. If that was a good thing or a bad thing, or if it was a good thing for them, but it wouldn't be for us, since we are living in a more polluted environment. Or maybe in some cases, the water is equally polluted, and washing our hair cleans it some but also dirties it some.


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## tlm884 (Nov 7, 2011)

I color my hair on a regular basis and the last batch of color sucked the life out of my hair and this was 2 months ago. Thankfully I only dye two shades darker then my actual color so I just let it grow out. I am still cursed with dry disgusting hair from it. 

I am washing everyday sometimes twice a day and my hairdresser recommended cowashing my hair. Sadly this hasn't made a difference either. I have tried one of my CP bars on my hair and it didn't do a thing either.


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## Sunny (Nov 7, 2011)

Well, I know a great brand of reconstructor for hair damaged from coloring, which I'd recommend based on personal use. You can PM me for details if you want. I don't think soap is gonna do it for you. I don't think washing your hair twice a day will either.


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## armin (Nov 7, 2011)

WOW! I just got home and realized how many replies I have 
I didn't want to create a wave lol in this wonderful world of chemistry...
I just realized I made a mistake in my post, I said I will never put surfactants and detergents on my skin... well I was talking only about petroleum derived ones. When protein degeneration occurs your dermis is affected and the natural protective barrier is broken, also many other implications will follow. Unlike 99.9% of commercial shampoo containing this petroleum surfactants the regular homemade pooh bar will not degenerate the cells in your outer layer of the skin....
I am not saying you have to avoid chemicals... just avoid the bad ones...

tim884 :My wife had the same problem. I can use any type of soap bar on my hair and I end up with healthy silky nice hair and never had a problem in my life... (also I am not using shampoo ever). My wife... oh Lord... shampoo after shampoo and everything made her hair worse... plus coloring often was the perfect recipe for disaster... and inevitably that happened... so we looked around and I came up with the "go natural" idea . At first it was denied so I did it anyway... I ordered organic henna, cassia, katam, indigo, etc. I learned how to prepare them which was really easy... add organic lemon jucie, lemon zest, lavender oil, drop of peppermint oil, tea tree oil and cinnamon oil. You can play a lot with this combinations and mixing henna with cassia you get golden tones, add indigo and you go brown, dark red, dark redish brown, dark brown and balck.... you can dye your hair every day without worries... I don't think you can get blonde but any other color...we got it... and my wife has very dark brown hair. So after 2-3 coloring with henna and oils, washing with my OO shampoo which I superfat with a bit of wheat germ oil she has very nice hair, healthy with no problems and now she loves more 
I will pt her picture here of course without her permission...







I don't know why she wants a conditioner but I refuse to try to understand what is a woman thinking... so I'll try to come up with a recipe at least for a moisturizer that is not oily....
Any ideas are more than welcome!

P.S.: I forgot t tell you our source of organic henna and plants for hair: http://www.hennasooq.com/


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## Fragola (Nov 8, 2011)

> just avoid the bad ones...


The good ones being what? The cocoyl thingys ?



> OO shampoo which I superfat with a bit of wheat germ oil


That being a soap bar or a liquid soap ?



> so I'll try to come up with a recipe at least for a moisturizer that is not oily....


If you're using a liquid soap, you can incorporate ground herbs oatmeal, or whatever, etc.  into your shampoo. Or simply mix some tasty icecream into it. Joking here, but I do keep such a shampoo in my freezer.

For an idea about a non-oily conditioner, maybe you can check the bath/body forum. 

An oily one works perfectly for me, because I am applying it 1 hour before washing the hair.


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## carebear (Nov 8, 2011)

armin said:
			
		

> I am not saying you have to avoid chemicals... just avoid the bad ones...


_oh no, evil chemicals!!! <runs screaming from the room>_


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