# Phenoxyethanol preservative in whipped soap?



## Shanjeevanie (Feb 29, 2020)

Can we use Phenoxyethanol as a preservative in whipped soap?

Thank you


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## Kcryss (Feb 29, 2020)

Shanjeevanie said:


> Can we use Phenoxyethanol as a preservative in whipped soap?
> 
> Thank you


I personally would not use that product in anything.


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## Arimara (Feb 29, 2020)

Are you using it by itself? I think a more experienced soaper would be better with advice that since I've seen that in Optophen, you might need more than just that to effectively preserve anything.


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## cmzaha (Feb 29, 2020)

Kcryss what is wrong with Optiphen or Germall Plus? Those two preservatives actually work well, especially when used in a dual preservative system. Optiphen is considered natural. 

Phenoxyethanol does not preserve against mold and as a single ingredient only somewhat preserves against gram positive bacteria. So as a single preservative it is not a good preservative. 

To answer your question you would be better off with a preservative that covers a higher ph range, and one that protects better against mold such as Suttocide A. Germall Plus is rated up to PH 10 so you may get away with it. My choice is Suttocide A and it works well in cream soap. If you are just whipping cp soap you do not need a preservative.


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## Kcryss (Feb 29, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> Kcryss what is wrong with Optiphen or Germall Plus? Those two preservatives actually work well, especially when used in a dual preservative system. Optiphen is considered natural.
> 
> Phenoxyethanol does not preserve against mold and as a single ingredient only somewhat preserves against gram positive bacteria. So as a single preservative it is not a good preservative.
> 
> To answer your question you would be better off with a preservative that covers a higher ph range, and one that protects better against mold such as Suttocide A. Germall Plus is rated up to PH 10 so you may get away with it. My choice is Suttocide A and it works well in cream soap. If you are just whipping cp soap you do not need a preservative.



Hmm ... guess I should do more research before answering some questions. I actually use germall plus. I know it is not natural and is a formaldehyde releaser, but I prefer that to bacteria. I didn't realize Optiphen contains Phenoxyethanol, although I haven't used Optiphen as I've read that it isn't always as effective as a broad spectrum preservative. 

Either way, I do still have a lot to learn about preservatives, even though I do insist on using them.


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## Shanjeevanie (Mar 11, 2020)

Thank you for recommendation. Actually I couldn't find any other preservatives around where I live. I should try to find suttocide A. Thank you.


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## Carl (Mar 11, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> Hmm ... guess I should do more research before answering some questions. I actually use germall plus. I know it is not natural and is a formaldehyde releaser, but I prefer that to bacteria. I didn't realize Optiphen contains Phenoxyethanol, although I haven't used Optiphen as I've read that it isn't always as effective as a broad spectrum preservative.
> 
> Either way, I do still have a lot to learn about preservatives, even though I do insist on using them.



I researched this to death and there's a difference of opinion among the experts.  Some of them claim that no preservative is needed at all in liquid soap (due to the high PH).  The other camp claims that since LS is a high percentage of water, you absolutely need preservative.

For liquid soap, I use the Liquid Germall Plus.  It's the only one that works in the PH range of the LS.  And this creates another topic of debate because LGP is not labeled for use in your LS.  The reason why some people use it is only because they've personally tested it.  

So if LGP is not labeled for LS, then there really does not exist a preservative that is labeled for LS.  The "No Preservative" crowd will use this to boost their argument.

For lower PH products such as lotions and sprays, I use the Optiphen Plus.

On a side note, I've also learned that there is no such thing as a natural preservative.


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## Kcryss (Mar 11, 2020)

Carl said:


> I researched this to death and there's a difference of opinion among the experts.  Some of them claim that no preservative is needed at all in liquid soap (due to the high PH).  The other camp claims that since LS is a high percentage of water, you absolutely need preservative.
> 
> For liquid soap, I use the Liquid Germall Plus.  It's the only one that works in the PH range of the LS.  And this creates another topic of debate because LGP is not labeled for use in your LS.  The reason why some people use it is only because they've personally tested it.
> 
> ...


Thanks Carl! I totally agree, there is no such thing as a "natural" preservative ... at least not one that actually works. Even lucidal has been shown to contain more then just fermented radish. 

In your research, did you come across any documentation on lab tests for LS? That would certainly prove the case one way or the other on whether or not a preservative it needed.


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## Carl (Mar 11, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> Thanks Carl! I totally agree, there is no such thing as a "natural" preservative ... at least not one that actually works. Even lucidal has been shown to contain more then just fermented radish.
> 
> In your research, did you come across any documentation on lab tests for LS? That would certainly prove the case one way or the other on whether or not a preservative it needed.



No I didn't.  My sources of information are conversing with highly qualified people on this forum and multiple articles on soaping sites throughout the internet world.  

Another interesting source of information would be to google for some of the following things:
How mold grows
Ideal conditions for mold growth, etc.

You're going to get a lot of information that is not related to soaping, but you might get a general idea of how mold lives and forms.

It's very confusing, because many of the experts do disagree on this.  And they both make some very valid arguments and both have very valid points!


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## cmzaha (Mar 11, 2020)

Suttocide A can be used in ph up to 12 and as low as 3.5


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## Kcryss (Mar 11, 2020)

Thanks @Carl 

@cmzaha Interesting. I hadn't come across that one yet, but based on what I'm finding it seems to be a slightly better option then GP. Thanks for posting.


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## Kasuda (Feb 24, 2021)

Shanjeevanie said:


> Thank you for recommendation. Actually I couldn't find any other preservatives around where I live. I should try to find suttocide A. Thank you.


I live in India and the only preservative I'm able to get hold of here is phenoxyethonol . I did a little research online about it  and learnt that it is a broad spectrum preservative and is very stable .But, I again read here on the forum that it is not a good choice and should not use... I AM CONFUSED .. request some help please in the matter ...


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## DeeAnna (Feb 24, 2021)

There is a lot of misinformation on the internet about preservatives. I rely on the info at Making Skincare. If I need more info than what Making Skincare provides, I go direct to the manufacturer's website or a reputable supplier's website. Here is info copied and pasted from Making Skincare --

"...Cold process soap (made with sodium hydroxide) does not need a preservative.  For other high pH products such as liquid soap, generally if the pH is above 10 a preservative may not be required.  If the pH is below 10, liquid germall plus can be used (despite the supplier recommended use below pH 8).  Alternatively, Suttocide A (see below for downsides) or Glydant Plus can be used....

Trade name(s) of preservative:  *Liquid germall plus*
INCI name: Propylene Glycol (and) Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate
Usage and phase:  0.5% Cool down
Works within pH range: 3-8 but can be used at higher pH, for example, pH 10   
Natural or synthetic? Synthetic
*Protects against: 
– gram positive bacteria? *Yes
*– gram negative bacteria? *Yes
*– fungi? *Yes

Trade name(s) of preservative:  *Phenoxyethanol*
INCI name: Phenoxyethanol
Usage and phase:  0.6-1% Cool down
Works within pH range: 3-10 
Natural or synthetic? Natural
*Protects against: 
– gram positive bacteria? *Somewhat
*– gram negative bacteria? *Yes
*– fungi? *No

Source: Preservative Reviews

As for me, I agree with the general consensus that bar (NaOH) soap and concentrated liquid (KOH) soap are generally self preserving AS LONG AS you don't load the soap up with "bug food". What I mean by "bug food" are any additives that provide the carbohydrates and/or protein to make a complete and healthy diet for microbes. 

That means you don't want to put things like whole oats or _coarse _bits of food puree on or in bar soap. And you don't want to dilute liquid soap with liquids such as tea, milk or aloe. No preservative can prevent microbial growth in situations like these.

One situation where adding preservative to soap is a good idea is when you dilute liquid soap with a lot with water. A good example is the thin soap used in foamer dispensers. When the concentration of soap in the diluted product is low enough, the soap cannot provide the stable alkaline pH which is critical for soap to be self preserving. 

Adding a preservative to cream soap may also be a good idea since you're adding things like stearic acid and glycerin which affect the self preserving ability of the soap. Microbes might not grow well within the main body of cream soap in a container, but the thin film of soap near the edges of the container may not have a stable alkaline pH and thus are not self preserving.


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## Kasuda (Feb 25, 2021)

Shanjeevanie said:


> Thank you for recommendation. Actually I couldn't find any other preservatives around where I live. I should try to find suttocide A. Thank you.


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## ghoshsmita (Feb 25, 2021)

You can try Pioneer Chemicals. They have a choice in preservatives and other soap stuff. They ship wherever required. I have had ppl shipping stuff to me in Dubai



ghoshsmita said:


> You can try Pioneer Chemicals. They have a choice in preservatives and other soap stuff. They ship wherever required. I have had ppl shipping stuff to me in Dubai


00 91 98990 32261 is the no I whatsapp them. They also send me their latest catalogue.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 25, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> One situation where adding preservative to soap is a good idea is when you dilute liquid soap with a lot with water. *A good example is the thin soap used in foamer dispensers*. When the concentration of soap in the diluted product is low enough, the soap cannot provide the stable alkaline pH which is critical for soap to be self preserving.


For what it's worth, I do not use preservatives in soap -- hard bars or liquid. I do, however, add antioxidants ROE and vitamin C to either the oils as soon as they are opened (to prolong shelf-life) or to the oils/fats/butters as I'm making the soap. Nevah evah had a problem. It should be noted, I do not add "bug food" or mess with lowering the LS just to be safe.  

For Foamer Soap, I dilute the LS at a ratio of 2:3, i.e., 40% soap to 60% water. 
Then further dilute it at a ratio of 1:3, i.e., 25% soap to 75% water

Although the accuracy of pH test strips is questionable, the pH of my foamer soap tests around 10.
Here's a link:

*FOAMER SOAP*


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