# Jumping into business too soon



## funastrum

I'm kind of shocked to see that one of the fans of my facebook page who admires my soaps has decided to make and sell soaps themselves.  I recognized her name on a soap making facebook group and I saw her posting her first batch of cold process soap that she made 2 days ago.  She now has started her own business page.  That just seems crazy!  I would not buy soap from someone who calls themselves a business after 2 days of even making soap, with not much research at all (she was asking what CP and HP meant only 3 days ago).  She can't know how the soap will be 1, 2, 3, or 9 months down the road, how it spoils, safety, etc.  Oy!  She is local, and I am not really worried about her being competition, because I am pretty established in town and my branding is excellent.  I am more concerned about the lack of experience someone has going into a business making handmade soap look bad, while I on the other hand spent a lot of time learning and getting better at my craft.  
I read about this kind of stuff a lot, but then actually seeing it happen so close to home is a little unnerving!  I just wanted to vent a little bit, lol!


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## KristaY

O. M. G. I don't even know what to say. This is just sad. I can't imagine doing ANYTHING once then calling myself a professional. I just hope she doesn't hurt anyone. :thumbdown:


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## Relle

Unfortunately, you only have to look in here, that it's been happening daily, for years. It's not hard to pick them out from all the questions they're asking that they're new and shouldn't even be going near the public. It's like beating your head against a brick wall if you say anything - a lot of them just don't get it.


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## Dorymae

There really is nothing you can do, but know this, she will not be competition.  If she doesn't know what she is doing, if her soap is lye heavy, if it just isn't pleasant, she will be out of business very shortly.

It is a common misconception with people that they can make soap, start a business, and make money when they have little or no money.  They simply have no clue as to the expense of having a business. For the first 2 years you lose money, then you start to break even and then if your lucky you make a few bucks.  It takes a while to build a good reputation and customer base, and I doubt she will last that long.


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## navigator9

Relle said:


> Unfortunately, you only have to look in here, that it's been happening daily, for years. It's not hard to pick them out from all the questions they're asking that they're new and shouldn't even be going near the public. It's like beating your head against a brick wall if you say anything - a lot of them just don't get it.



I agree. I've gotten to the point where I've decided for my own sanity, I can't reply to those posts. I just get too frustrated. You can't convince those people of the enormity of what they don't know. They're blinded by dollar signs flashing in front of their eyes, and they won't listen to reason. As KristaY says, hopefully, she won't hurt anyone.


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## Dorymae

I doubt she'll hurt anyone with just soap.  Even if her soap is lye heavy.  Soap is forgiving only because we usually use it with lots of water.  Of course accidents happen (like someone getting in their eye) but with the amount of people she'll be reaching - the chance is statistically small.  This is not to say she should be selling soap, or that selling bad soap is ok,  just that soap as a product is pretty forgiving.

Hopefully she doesn't conceive to try to sell other beauty products, like lotions or shampoos - there is the real danger.


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## Corinne

I'm sorry if I'm one of the newbies that you all are talking about... I honestly don't mean any harm and speaking for other newbies I think it's only out of ignorance that we jump in over our heads often times 

I personally think the girl in question jumped into business way to quickly... 3 days isn't even enough time to get it batched/popped outta the mold/cut/etc. But if I am being lumped into this newbie group I would like to say that it is out of humility that I declare myself a newbie, and out of respect that I have asked for the opinions of people who I feel are MUCH more experienced than I. I seriously find the advice given on this forum to be incredibly valuable as I slowly increase my soapmaking skills.

I just felt the need to clarify again that while I am "new" to cold process soaping, I have been researching soap and doing M&P etc. for the past 9+ months... and yet only now have I decided to really start a business. Mine has been "under wraps" and in the works for the past 9 months, as I made lip balms, salves, creams, etc. for myself because I suffer from contact dermatitis and multiple allergies. I have sold locally to friends during this time, mainly in the form of lip balm and M&P soap concoctions. But I felt so limited by M&P (and annoyed that I could not remove ingredients I wasn't so fond of) that when I discovered CP soaping I nearly died of happiness...

It is my current joy and passion to make soap that has--in my opinion--miraculously cleared up my excema and diminished razor bumps because I'm not allergic to it for once in my life! And the fact that my sister--who is vegetarian--said to me the other day that I make the best soap she has ever used... soaping seriously is an emotional thing for me now.

I simply wanted to clarify that soap is not the ONLY thing I am planning to sell and it is not the only reason I've decided to form a business... this truly is my passion and my life, and I hope that no one looks down on me because of my youth and apparent inexperience.

I promise you that I check everything I do three times over to ensure that my products are safe and of the highest quality possible. If they aren't, I rebatch them and/or use them on myself.

I hope that this clears up some things if there have been any suspicions about me... and that it possibly provides another side to us newbies. You can't read a book by its cover, and I just don't think every newbie should be stereotyped like the 3-day girl.

On a similar note, I took piano for 10 years when I was younger--performed at numerous recitals and the yearly guild, even submitted a composition for judging--yet, when I handed out hundreds of flyers to people after deciding to offer piano lessons, not a single person called me. I was 19 at the time and couldn't understand it. I had all of the qualifications, but all people saw was my age, and all they thought was: inexperienced. Since then I have learned to let no one look down on me because of how they see me, but rather to prove myself to them by my work and actions.


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## funastrum

I knew you guys would understand! 
It took me longer than 2 days to get my federal, state, and local licenses/accounts/ID's. etc.!  She's definitely not doing things by the books.  It is frustrating knowing that she does not have this stuff, and I took time getting everything together, so there is a lot of pride I have in the process. Luckily I have not lost money so far in my journey, but my bank account is definitely not increasing.  All the money I make goes back into materials and expanding my business at this point.    
My highest profit items are shampoos and conditioner bars anyways, and I am established in a few salons that are keeping me pretty busy.  I doubt she would be able to jump into that, since those ingredients require a huge investment.  
Patience is essential for being successful!  I wonder how many people jump into it and then ditch the "business" for the next crafty kick they get where they see dollar signs...  I guess I will just have to watch from a distance, and try not to let it get to me.


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## Corinne

funastrum said:


> Patience is essential for being successful!  I wonder how many people jump into it and then ditch the "business" for the next crafty kick they get where they see dollar signs...  I guess I will just have to watch from a distance, and try not to let it get to me.



On that note, I can definitely agree with you. I now have obtained my business license for the local city, after getting my FEIN, CA Sellers Permit, FBN, etc... it is a lot of work and so far the only $$ I see is the $$ going down the drain...  But this is something I am investing my life into, so my $11/hr job as an SI at the local college is supporting me as I go.


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## funastrum

You seem like a very intelligent person, and I don't think you are the type that goes into a group with her. Within the past week she has also posted her first melt and pour soap, so she is pretty much going into a soap business with less than a week total experience in any kind of body care crafting. 
Looking at her facebook page she already has 153 likes and has her first hot process soap from yesterday packaged. "Ingredients: Olive Oil, Shea butter, icing colorant" No weight listed, no address, totally improper!


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## godschild

I have been soaping only since February but I made a facebook page because I have family members who live far away that want to try out my soaps.  It is a good way for them to see my progress and what I have made so far.  I have family members who WANT to buy my soap so if they want to buy it and it's good soap, who am I to not allow them to?  I would never give away or sell soap that didn't turn out worthy of them.  I have soaps that have turned out marvelously great and I have some that haven't.  I keep the ones that are ugly or I just feel are a recipe that could be better.  Some of my ugly soap is still great, just ugly.  I do feel that in time, I can be a master soaper.  Having said that, I have bought soap from people that have been soaping for 10+ years and their soap isn't as good as mine as far as being bubbly with a nice silky lather, conditioning, long lasting, creamy, and just the right amount of cleansing and still pretty in my eyes.  I have put a lot of effort and maybe more time into my soaping than some people get to because of lack of time or having kids or jobs that take up most of their time.  I am a disabled woman with nothing but time on my hands and have watched/read all I can on soaping.  Do I still have questions and need to learn more?  Definitely.  But do I feel like I can sell soap that is better than many that I have tried and bought before whether it be handmade or come from a store?  You bet. Don't count all of us out or put us all in the same boat just because we haven't been at this as long as some have.  I sleep on average about 3 hours total a night and sometimes I don't sleep due to having insomnia.  My child is grown.  I don't spend much time away from home because I choose not to.  I don't have friends to spend time with much because they have all moved away when they got married.  I pretty much don't do anything anymore but soap or learn about soaping and how I can do things better.  I am definitely one of the people that were spoken of recently when somebody mentioned the same folks are on here when they are lol.  Yall know I'm always asking something on here or commenting/posting something.  Please don't discount someone like me because I just may surprise you.  I have gotten my licenses, ins etc so I am legal in that respect.  I am ahead of several soapers that are in my town and surrounding ones too that have been soaping for a long time.  Many don't care what quality soap they put out as long as they make a dime, whether they are legal, nor do they care to improve themselves or their soap.  I do however.  Excuse the long post but you just can't put us all in one basket.


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## Corinne

funastrum said:


> Looking at her facebook page she already has 153 likes and has her first hot process soap from yesterday packaged.  "Ingredients: Olive Oil, Shea butter, icing colorant"  No weight listed, no address, totally improper!



HOLY COW! I have been making lip balms and such for 9+ months like I said, and when I got my business-in-the-works page up I invited friends (I have around 400+) and barely have 50 likes so far... maybe it's because I'm not a very pushy person  I've listed every ingredient from the start though... I didn't want to be in the wrong if I decided to start up a business for real... I'm sure some things are technicalities that she just isn't aware of. For example: I had no idea there was an address requirement on soaps until someone mentioned it on another thread. I had gotten all of the INCI ingredients down, the weight (I understate to be safe), etc., but obviously I am still learning about these darned little technicalities.

But overall I don't think I'm at all the same type of person. I hope she tests it all on herself beforehand.



godschild said:


> Excuse the long post but you just can't put us all in one basket.



Preach it!


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## godschild

Lol Corinne! I just couldn't help it. I have read so much lately about people worrying about others selling too early. It's not my business if someone wants to sell immediately. I would rather focus that time on my own soapy self. If a person wants to ruin their name or potential future sales by selling crap then that's their own problem. I and my loved ones have been the test monkeys for my soaps etc so I know they are safe and good or else they get rebatched for my own handwashing soap. I have tossed one batch out of a couple thousand dollars worth of soap I have made so far and that was from bad lye and I just didn't trust it. Not my fault the lye. I don't have many likes on my own fb page and I don't care if I ever get any more nor do I care if I ever do sell another bar. I enjoy what I'm doing and that's what matters to me. I will never run out of soap probably for the rest of my life and I'll always smell good. The state and government made money off me and I have probably paid a few of the supply companies' light bills from all the money I have spent on my supplies so that is also a plus. Win Win. You wouldn't believe the positive reviews I've had and what those same people have said about soap they've bought at farmers markets, flea markets, and boutiques being inferior to mine. That makes me feel good about myself and we all need that once in a while. Here I have went again. Goodnight yall. I'm not perfect by any means but neither is anyone else on here. That's what quality checking and control and paying for insurance is for right?

I should've said I do agree that people shouldn't just jump into business. I did take a step back and slow my own self down on that note because I do want everything to be just right. I'll still be paying taxes and for insurance as I learn even more just in case some idiot is given a bar of my soap as a present or something and thinks they can make a fast buck with a lawsuit. As far as the soaps I've made so far that people know are good though, why should they just sit being unused when they could be enjoyed by my family and close friends?


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## Corinne

I think this became kind of a slam to both sides, so I just want to say that if anyone is worried by us newbies entering the marketplace, don't be. If you think we will hurt people, the worst we can do is probably make someone peel (because honestly if we're handling the soap bare-handed three days in like all newbies do, we'll suffer the consequences of our own actions) and file a lawsuit and then we're done for. If you think we will take your business, I don't know why. If you have a good product and loyal customers, how could we steal them? And if we do steal them, doesn't that just mean maybe you need to improve your products? The way I see it is that if people prefer other soapers' products to mine, the problem doesn't lie with those soapers, but rather with myself  I have tried the soaps at the local farmers markets and I know that one soaper uses all M&P and the other uses too much coconut oil or something because it dried me to death. (If they see this post I hope they take that into account, because I mean no harm--just stating a fact as a previous customer.) Neither of them labeled anything, to my knowledge. And being allergic to a lot of things, I thought to myself two years ago "something needs to change". I hope that I am filling the need for an honest, legal, caring soaper in my community... and if worse comes to worse maybe I will spur the other soapers to improve their soaps and business practices!  If I fail at my own business, at least hopefully it will be because they step up their game and provide a product that I have faith in.

That's all that really matters to me.


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## godschild

You said what I wanted to say and how I should've said it Corinne.  Thank you for your eloquence.


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## Aline

It is annoying to see people start selling without having done the ground work but I think it is wise advice to focus on one's own magnificence instead of what other people are doing :wink: I get bent out of shape seeing other B & B sellers lie about their ingredients. Honestly, I can't bear it. But I have concluded that the best way to deal with it is to take a deep breath and re-focus on what I am doing (doesn't always work but I try) :crazy:

P.S: having re-read this thread I realize that much of the concern is about safety and I would not be able to keep my mouth shut if I thought someone was selling an unsafe product....


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## pamielynn

I don't think most experienced soapers are worried about competition from newbies, we're worried about giving the industry a bad name. I have people come to my table frequently telling me how they "don't like handmade soap because its drying". Now, if that's from personal experience or just an old myth that's still going around, IDK. But, some people will even tell me "I got soap from So&So and I didn't like it". Of course, not everyone is going to like MY soap either, but the fact that so many people tell me these things, makes me wonder.

I liken the soap-newbie-selling-too-soon issue to the cupcake phenomenon. I couldn't even count how many people were selling cupcakes last holiday season. But, it's popular right now. Doesn't matter if you're making them from a box or illegally using trademarked images (hello, Cookie Monster), some folks see the success of others and jump on the bandwagon. I've spoken with some of them and you can tell that baking isn't even their passion  And sometimes it feels as though there are soapers out there just like that. 

And nobody is saying your soap isn't good enough, but believe me - in 5 years you'll look back and say "What was I thinking?", because with experience comes real knowledge and skill.


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## godschild

Well those poor folks that I've bought from that have already that said they "have been soaping for 10+ years" won't be ready for another 10 as far as I care because their soap sucked, I know they lied about what was on their labels, etc.  It's not just newbies that give soaping a bad name.  All the hate on folks on not just this forum but other public venues has given soapers a bad name as well.  Some are afraid to even ask questions on here for fear of ridicule and some have even quit coming onto this forum.  I personally don't care though if I get ridiculed because if someone doesn't like me, they don't.  I will stay because I know that no matter how long someone has been doing things, they still have things to learn and can improve on their soaping.  People shouldn't be driven away though.  I won't say any more on the matter.


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## funastrum

I think we are straying from the subject.  I'm not talking about soap makers that have been at it for months, I am talking about someone that has less than a week of soap making experience.  Her first hot process soap was packaged within 24 hours of making it, so I doubt she had given out many bars if any at all to see what people think of them.  If she tested them in the shower with a white washcloth she would probably learn that her soap dyed with red cake icing would stain a washcloth.  Or maybe she doesn't care?  I can understand defending newbies, but I am not attacking every newbie.  I just see someone that hardly understands soap making and then calling themselves a professional, I just find it careless and rushed into for money instead of passion and a want to learn proper technique, business ethics, etc.


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## Dorymae

I believe there is a difference between someone who loves soaping and does research, tests their batches, sells to friends and family, and then starts a business.  Even if this process only took 6 months, if they spent 6 hours a day "living" soap, then they have the knowledge at least. (perhaps not the experience but that will always take time.)

This type of person would not bother me if they decided to sell.  I wouldn't feel threatened because I know that the soaps I put up for sale will be my tried and true and the ones they put up for sale they will probably have wasted several batches to get IF they are comparable to mine.

The thing that does bother me is the person who makes soap, has no idea of the oils or their properties, doesn't know how to formulate their own recipe, spends maybe an hour after work looking at soap forums for basic information and is already making labels and making plans to sell right away.  

The lack of knowledge is the key I think.  Some of this will come with experience and no doubt it is the best teacher. However as long as a person is willing to know that they will have more problems than most, doesn't plan to sell each and every batch regardless of problems, then I think it is okay.  Common sense definitely comes into play here.  Unfortunately common sense isn't so common anymore.


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## cmzaha

pamielynn said:


> I don't think most experienced soapers are worried about competition from newbies, we're worried about giving the industry a bad name. I have people come to my table frequently telling me how they "don't like handmade soap because its drying". Now, if that's from personal experience or just an old myth that's still going around, IDK. But, some people will even tell me "I got soap from So&So and I didn't like it". Of course, not everyone is going to like MY soap either, but the fact that so many people tell me these things, makes me wonder.
> 
> Competition have never bothered me, but I have also had people come to my booth and tell me they will not use handmade soap because they had bought one that was just to drying and caused itching. When that happens I offer a small sample and ask them if they will just compare it with what they used. Another thing I hate is soapmakers telling customers it is all you should ever use and never use manufactured soap. Soap is Not for everyone. I have a customer I have tried many formulas and she just cannot use lye based soap, it happens. I just told a potential customer yesterday that he might be better with a Cetaphil type cleanser, but he did leave my booth with several nice samples to try.
> Two weeks ago a girl that sells scrapbooking products in one of my markets suddenly had soap for sale. She does not know who I am so I was smelling her few soaps, they look like glycerin soap, but I am truly not positive, but they stunk every bit as bad as rancid soap. This hurts markets for all of us Later my hubby stopped by her booth and was smelling her soap, he mentioned they did not smell well and her answer was they are 100% organic and that is how it smells. :-( At the end of the night I noticed she had sold some. YUCK. I can attest to the fact that 6 years later my soap is very different from my orginal soaps, which I still have a few. It has taken years of trial and research to come up with some of mine.
> This person you are speaking of will probably just fade away. This is a very very tough business very difficult to making an actual living from. Good extra money business with a lot of hard work.


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## CanaDawn

The Four Stages of Competence again.  In my experience elsewhere, those who protest their own competence the most are in the first stage.  Then there's a quiet phase where they being to accept the vastness of what they don't know, and absorb some learning.


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## seven

those who think they can make a quick buck from selling soaps, well... they're about to meet the biggest surprise of their life!


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## wetshavingproducts

Unfortunately, this is just a part of operating any sort of business. The only difference is that most other businesses have a higher bar to entry. Ie, retail requires retail space and a large investment of inventory. Manufacturing requires a factory and workers. Soap requires a kitchen, labor, and a few pounds of ingredients to start off with.


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## pamielynn

godschild said:


> Well those poor folks that I've bought from that have already that said they "have been soaping for 10+ years" won't be ready for another 10 as far as I care because their soap sucked, I know they lied about what was on their labels, etc.  It's not just newbies that give soaping a bad name.  All the hate on folks on not just this forum but other public venues has given soapers a bad name as well.  Some are afraid to even ask questions on here for fear of ridicule and some have even quit coming onto this forum.  I personally don't care though if I get ridiculed because if someone doesn't like me, they don't.  I will stay because I know that no matter how long someone has been doing things, they still have things to learn and can improve on their soaping.  People shouldn't be driven away though.  I won't say any more on the matter.



I'm not trying to give you any hate, just my opinion. Only you know your level of competence - and if it's there - go for it. I do believe sometimes you have to run before you can walk - it's a great learning experience. But I don't think anyone is "hating" on you here. But, some of us haven't just been around the block, we're part of the pavement by now  

Truly, once you've been at this for awhile, it is entirely possible that you will come to understand our hesitancy to support going into business when someone comes along who made their first batch LAST WEEK and is already setting up shop. 

But, honestly, no hate intended.


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## CanaDawn

wetshavingproducts said:


> Unfortunately, this is just a part of operating any sort of business. The only difference is that most other businesses have a higher bar to entry. Ie, retail requires retail space and a large investment of inventory. Manufacturing requires a factory and workers. Soap requires a kitchen, labor, and a few pounds of ingredients to start off with.



I disagree that it is "most" other businesses, because I think that any business or industry at all will have its share of people who don't possess the level of expertise they self-assess to have. They may or may not be on a learning curve to correct that, but as it has been forever: Caveat Emptor



pamielynn said:


> Only you know your level of competence



Not at the earliest stage. Unconcious incompetence = not being aware of the lack of expertise, believing all is known, and skills are at suitable levels.



godschild said:


> All the hate on folks on not just this forum but other public venues has given soapers a bad name as well. Some are afraid to even ask questions on here for fear of ridicule and some have even quit coming onto this forum.



Some things are predictable in that they are said many times in many places, in similar situations. "some are afraid" to hear from experience, and "some have quit" as if people don't come and go all the time = to me.....bluster. Yes, some people won't take advice. Yes, some experienced people at [whatever] will be frustrated by newcomers with more confidence than anything, and won't always be sweet and gentle. Sure, some people drop out, which is true in pretty much any group of people, since time immemorial.

Eventually, the best of the beginners accept that they can learn from others and quit reinventing the wheel or overestimating their own abilities, as they begin to approach their subject with true craftsman's humility and openness to real learning. 

No one is hating on folks. They ARE expressing with various degrees of subtlety (  )their shared opinion that a few weeks of CP or HP soap experience is not enough to consider oneself experienced enough to sell to the public, and that many such vendors have a lot to learn.


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## Jencat

I'm at the Conscious Incompetence stage.  I've been lucky enough to have my first batches turn into really good soap that people enjoy, but I need to experience more failures and challenges as well as many more successes before I'm ready to even think of selling.  If I had more time to devote to it, I know I could get there faster.  I can't compare my timeline to someone who has been living and breathing soap for months.  If someone can truly understand in a shorter period of time all that contributes to making good and bad soap, has experience with both, can make good soap consistently and is following all the rules and regulations; then I don't see a problem with them giving selling a try.  The person who has only made one back and that was 4 days ago, that's insane.


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## CanaDawn

Nicely said, Jencat.


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## pamielynn

"Unconcious incompetence" = happiest people in the world


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## CanaDawn

pamielynn said:


> "Unconcious incompetence" = happiest people in the world



   lol, or the most offended, depending what you're telling them


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## cmzaha

I gave up worring about newbies a long time ago. They soon learn markets can be brutal work, such as doing two in one day in 106 degree weather and then heading out the next day. This is after getting home late wrapping up and labeling products to take out the next day. It just makes me keep my brain working to have more and better products. I take 40-50 different soap to each market. It is hard enough to load and unload that much soap and that is only some of the products. I find most new seller to stay more than 6 months
A month or so ago I had a customer drill me with all sorts of questions, fatty acids, procedure, etc and I was able to answer all questions. He was most suprised and I asked him why it suprised him I could answer the questions and he informed he had done the same up the street with the others. Sold him soap and he has been back for more. So they snared me another customer!!


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## Relle

Carolyn at least you know with the loading and unloading of that much soap you have done your weight lifting workout for the day. Now, that can't be a bad thing . I suppose we can say lugging around soap is building our muscles.


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## Dorymae

Omg Relle when I read "lugging around soap" I got this mental picture of carrying boxes of soap door to door!!  I guess we can all be thankful that the markets exist!


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## Hazel

funastrum - 

I definitely understand your feelings because I have seen a lot of what I call sarcastically “make soap today/sell tomorrow” mentality. Please try not to let it get to you. There’s nothing you can do and people like this don’t want to hear anything that is opposed to what they want. I have been trying to ignore some activity on the forum but couldn’t restrain myself any longer. 

  Now I’ll apologize in advance for getting off topic but after reading this thread, I wanted to vent a little, too.



funastrum said:


> I just see someone that hardly understands soap making and then calling themselves a professional, I just find it careless and rushed into for money instead of passion and a want to learn proper technique, business ethics, etc.


 


Dorymae said:


> The thing that does bother me is the person who makes soap, has no idea of the oils or their properties, doesn't know how to formulate their own recipe, spends maybe an hour after work looking at soap forums for basic information and is already making labels and making plans to sell right away.


 
  To both of you, well said.



godschild said:


> the hate on folks on not just this forum but other public venues has given soapers a bad name as well. Some are afraid to even ask questions on here for fear of ridicule and some have even quit coming onto this forum. I personally don't care though if I get ridiculed because if someone doesn't like me, they don't. I will stay because I know that no matter how long someone has been doing things, they still have things to learn and can improve on their soaping. People shouldn't be driven away though. I won't say any more on the matter.


 
  I’m sorry you feel we’re hateful on this forum. I know what I write can sound mean but I don’t intend it that way. Mostly I don’t intend it – there have been some deceptive posts and I have commented on them. I also don’t like people assuming I’m too stupid to catch inconsistencies or evasiveness in their comments. These are generally what make me start to wonder about someone and decide to do some checking. 

  Also, everyone can go back and view another member’s posts in chronological order. With enough posts, it’s very easy to spot which members are here only to pick other people’s brains so they can get immediate answers and don’t have to do all the boring research to find answers. I don’t have any patience with people like this and I won’t answer their questions. It's also easy to see when people first start and say they just want to learn. Then see the "I'm selling" posts within a few days to a few weeks. I hope people who have joined this forum with a sincere desire to learn, develop their skills and create the best product aren’t afraid to ask questions. 

  As for people quitting the forum because we’re hateful, well…this forum serves different needs for different people at different times. I have seen people quit the forum for an extended period of time and then return. If they don’t return, I hope they find another forum which is more congenial to them. I’ve seen this occur before - when a member “flounces” from the forum, it’s always because of the mean and hateful members. The person isn’t getting the responses she or he wants to hear. It’s a situation where the person gets what she needs, not what she wants; therefore the other members are haters or jealous, etc. The person never realizes she was given excellent advice because it is the opposite of this person’s viewpoint. People aren’t driven away; they drive themselves away by ignoring help and advice. This is an incredibly supportive forum if people are willing to check their egos and be receptive to guidance. It’s frustrating to many members to see people join and within a few weeks are making soap and selling it. 

  And yes, we’re always going to be learning new things no matter how many years experience we have. But please give us some credit that we know the basics and these do not change. We are able to recognize that someone isn’t ready to sell when the person doesn’t even know basic information about oil properties. 



Corinne said:


> I just felt the need to clarify again that while I am "new" to cold process soaping, I have been researching soap and doing M&P etc. for the past 9+ months... and yet only now have I decided to really start a business. Mine has been "under wraps" and in the works for the past 9 months, as I made lip balms, salves, creams, etc. for myself because I suffer from contact dermatitis and multiple allergies. I have sold locally to friends during this time, mainly in the form of lip balm and M&P soap concoctions. But I felt so limited by M&P (and annoyed that I could not remove ingredients I wasn't so fond of) that when I discovered CP soaping I nearly died of happiness....


 
  In order not to sound mean, I deleted almost everything I wrote in reply to the above comment. MP isn’t the same as CP. Three weeks (or possibly 7-8 weeks giving you the benefit) also isn’t enough time to know how your soap will be over time. 



Corinne said:


> I just want to say that if anyone is worried by us newbies entering the marketplace, don't be. If you think we will hurt people, the worst we can do is probably make someone peel.


 
  I’m sorry but I have to reply to this one. The worst you can do is probably make someone peel? How about ensuring your soap isn’t harmful to someone before you sell it? Disclaimer – I’m not writing this to ridicule. I’m just utterly flabbergasted by this comment.


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## Susie

Hazel- if I could give you 50 likes for that post, it still would not be enough!


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## rogue

Wow, I'm like 6 months ish into my 9-12 month plan & I'm still anxious about: getting things right, is this bar good enough to sell, the cut is a little wonky on these bars in my trey moulds. Licensing was the easy part. I do skin care also for friends thus far so I have microbiology testing that's gotta get done before I launch. I was just playing with soap calc for the first few WEEKS forget about selling anything. 
A little neurosis & OCD is a good thing sometime I think now.


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## OliveOil2

Hazel, I was shocked at the worst that could happen would be that someone's skin would peel comment. I couldn't figure out how to say it nicely, so just didn't post. Also I knew that she didn't want to listen to any advice, and had an answer for everything.

 When she stated: " Chemical reactions are predictable.  If you know what you are doing and are very accurate, follow all steps  carefully, etc. then the product should be safe."

Well the reason you don't know about what could go wrong is that you don't have enough experience, and should be safe just doesn't cut it.

 In any case I don't think there is a soap maker on this board that is afraid of newbie competition, or worries that the newbie will produce a better product.
 I see experienced soap makers give newbies advice all the time.

It is more of a question of producing a bad product, too high a cleansing number, or too much of the wrong oil, and then DOS.

I have seen newbie soapers join this board, and soar, they asked alot of questions, and took the time to ponder the answers. In other words they listened. Sometimes is isn't a question of how long, it has been since you made your first batch of soap, but what have you learned?


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## cmzaha

I’m sorry but I have to reply to this one. The worst you can do is probably make someone peel? How about ensuring your soap isn’t harmful to someone before you sell it? Disclaimer – I’m not writing this to ridicule. I’m just utterly flabbergasted by this comment.[/QUOTE]

Flabbergasted it an understatement. Some skin types cannot be peeled without the high possibility of causing heavy scarring. Olive skin like my daughter has Cannot be peeled. That came from her doctor when she was younger. So yes, just causing skin to peel can cause damage


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## angiem915

Is this conversation constructive?  I am speaking of this thread.  I have learned so much but this thread makes my stomach hurt.


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## cmzaha

angiem915 said:


> Is this conversation constructive? I am speaking of this thread. I have learned so much but this thread makes my stomach hurt.


Sometimes threads take on a life of their own and yes there is some constructive information here. Like any post, or forum you do not have to read it. Soapers in here are actually quite gentle compared to other forums...


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## angiem915

I believe both sides have been heard.


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## OliveOil2

Nobody is taking sides, and yes if a newbie is going to sell soap that can harm someone it is constructive. You don't have to continue to read the thread if you don't like what you are reading, and you are the only one mentioning 'sides'. This is not meant to be mean or hurt anyone's feelings. If one person learns something from this tread then yes it is a positive thing.


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## CanaDawn

I think this thread jumped the shark now that it has focused on a specific new soaper and not start-up woes in general.


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## Jaccart789

I can't remember what company this was, but the "Soapqueen" had featured her on her blog. This particular crafter had only been in business for a few months and soaping not much longer, but some how her soaps were featured in the grab bags of some kind of hollywood event. I wish I could remember the name, but what I am getting at... its possible to have really awesome soaps, ideas and be able to make it. Soaping really isn't hard and if you are good you will last and if you don't you will naturally fail... everything starts with a dream, so go for it, willingness to fail is the opportunity to exceed!


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## funastrum

Jaccart789 said:


> I can't remember what company this was, but the "Soapqueen" had featured her on her blog. This particular crafter had only been in business for a few months and soaping not much longer, but some how her soaps were featured in the grab bags of some kind of hollywood event. I wish I could remember the name, but what I am getting at... its possible to have really awesome soaps, ideas and be able to make it. Soaping really isn't hard and if you are good you will last and if you don't you will naturally fail... everything starts with a dream, so go for it, willingness to fail is the opportunity to exceed!



This is true.  
On a side note, I was featured on the Soapqueen blog last month, it was AWESOME and definitely helped generate business and followers.  I haven't done any Hollywood grab bags yet, unfortunately lol.


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## Jaccart789

That is SOOOO COOL "Funastrum".  A dream! I plan on flying to see Soapqueen next year and do a weekend at one of her private classes!


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## Hazel

Thanks, Susie. There was more which I wanted to say but I couldn't find a good way to state it. I also walked away from this for about an hour, came back to re-read and then re-wrote some and deleted portions of it. I don't want to upset people but it's so frustrating to see people who've made a few batches jump into selling. I can't say someone new to soapmaking can't have a wonderful recipe from the very beginning but the odds are against it. Generally, they're using a recipe they found online or in a book or they use one they created. Usually the recipes found online or in a book are good but not exceptional. As for someone creating a recipe, the odds are it's not going to be the best if a person doesn't know oil properties and shelf life. What if someone thinks "I've got this soybean oil in my cupboard, people use it in soapmaking so I'll use it, too". How long has that oil been in the cupboard? I could go on but you already know what I mean.

@ rogue -

Preaching to the choir.  I am very critical of what I make so I tend to do a lot of tweaking. I've been told I'm too picky but I can't get over the idea that whatever I make could be better. I don't think neurosis or OCD are bad things to have when you want to start a business. I'm sure you've heard the maxim "plan your business or plan to fail". I can't say this is true all the time but it's a good principle to follow.

OliveOil2 - 

You mentioned a very good point - "isn't a question of how long, it has been since you made your first batch of soap, but what have you learned?" I've mentioned before that not everyone needs to wait a year to start selling and explained why I felt this way in more detail. It depends on practical experience and not just "reading about soapmaking for months" because all the theory isn't going to prepare someone for the reality of what can happen. Everyone should know you can weigh accurately, follow the steps and the batch can still go wrong. Why didn't a batch turn out as it should? Fragrance oil, temperature variance, type of water/liquid, additives, Venus goes retrograde but personally, I always blame it on soap gremlins. But I digress... Bottom line - soap didn't turn out, figure out why and fix it if possible. Know what can occur, you won't be surprised and you'll know how to deal with it next time. Example, fragrance oils which heat up fast, seize or rice. I've been surprised by FOs but I've learned to either soap cool and don't gel, HP or give up and find a different fragrance oil. What drives me nuts is a FO which misbehaves and there weren't any reviews which mentioned seizing, ricing or discoloration. Sorry, I'm starting to wander from the point. Anyway, I don't know how many times I've seen an inexperienced person ignore advice, start selling and within a short time is back on the forum asking for help because something went wrong. Frustrating isn't the word for it.

cmzaha - Thanks for the input. I didn't even think about scarring. 

Angie - 

Yes, a discussion is always constructive when it is concerning safety and upholding professional standards. I'm sorry it makes your stomach hurt because I've actually experienced that sensation when I've read some posts.  I wish I didn't have to spend so much time repeating myself about these issues. I feel I'm using time which could be better spent more productively. As cmzaha mentioned, you don't have to read it. 

Jaccart789 - 

You're right it's not hard to make soap. What's hard is making soap which is good quality. Again, it's not how long you've been making soap. It's how much someone has learned through experience and I don't mean experience because the person has made a few batches. I'm all for believing yourself and  following a dream but too many people take shortcuts. My gripe is about the people who don't research, toss some oils and lye together, shove it out to sell because they think it's easy money. They want the money but they don't want to do the work. It's offensive and aggravating plus when they put out bad soap, it reflects negatively on other soapers. Sure, some people may succeed right away but I'd bet these are people who did extensive research and made numerous batches. But most people won't be as conscientious, diligent and concerned about quality. They will fail at their attempts to have a soap business and in doing so, make it harder for the dedicated soapers to succeed.



CanaDawn said:


> I think this thread jumped the shark now that it  has focused on a specific new soaper and not start-up woes in  general.



I disagree. Believe it or not, I'm not picking on one specific person. While writing, I was also thinking of former members and similar incidents in the past. I could have said much more if I wanted to be nasty especially about one person's coy references which imply she's more  experienced than she actually is because she thinks we can't figure it out. I want to say we can figure it out although it might take awhile. I didn't want to upset anyone but in the past several days I was stunned by some comments and the irresponsibility represented by them. I chose this topic to express my feelings about people jumping into business.  

Also, this thread wasn't started to discuss start-up woes. It was started because funastrum wanted to share her dismay and concern about an inexperienced person selling soap. This is what we've been discussing and unfortunately, you can't always talk in generalities.

However, I can close this topic if enough people feel it's not serving a purpose to allow people to express their feelings about people who've jumped on the soap biz train.

edited to add: funastrum - That's awesome! Congratulations! I apologize again for venting my spleen on your topic.


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## CanaDawn

It was not initially about a specific forum member.
Whatever you decide.  It is interesting/informative to see what people feel the need to say, I guess.


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## Jaccart789

Hazel....
I totally agree with everything you are saying, but I just wanted to point out there are those that succeed and do well. However, I can understand annoyance by veteran soapers. I am a big believer that those that are not great at the craft will be weeded out, and I don't think at the detriment of other good soapers.


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## Jaccart789

I wanted to add....

I was just recently married and was on a forum for brides for about a year. It was the nastiest forum I have ever been on. This forum is honestly the most welcoming and most encouraging place to go. I am amazed by how much knowledge and willingness to help by so many members. I have not encountered one rude or snide remark since being on here. For anyone to think otherwise, should go on some other forums and get a dose of reality.


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## cmzaha

Jaccart789 said:


> I can't remember what company this was, but the "Soapqueen" had featured her on her blog. This particular crafter had only been in business for a few months and soaping not much longer, but some how her soaps were featured in the grab bags of some kind of hollywood event. I wish I could remember the name, but what I am getting at... its possible to have really awesome soaps, ideas and be able to make it. Soaping really isn't hard and if you are good you will last and if you don't you will naturally fail... everything starts with a dream, so go for it, willingness to fail is the opportunity to exceed!


You usually pay plus donate products to be added in Hollywood bags


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## Jaccart789

well... she was good enough to be included regardless.

I digress... I am not defending anyone as I honestly am not worried about the new soaper, the veteran soaper, or any soaper. Who cares... lets just continue to support each other.


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## Hazel

Jaccart789 said:


> I just wanted to point out there are those that succeed and do well. However, I can understand annoyance by veteran soapers. I am a big believer that those that are not great at the craft will be weeded out, and I don't think at the detriment of other good soapers.



I agree there are some who quickly learn and do well. But by learning as much as they can and making dozens or more batches. It wasn't on this forum but I remember someone who stated she had made 4 batches every year for 30 years and was sniping at another person who had "only" been making CP for 3 months. She stated everyone knew who the experienced one was and was quite rude. My opinion was the person who had been making soap for 3 months was more experienced because she had made 280 batches during that time period. The reason she had made so many batches was because she was an apprentice for another soapmaker. She learned very rapidly. 



CanaDawn said:


> It was not initially about a specific forum member.
> Whatever you decide.  It is interesting/informative to see what people feel the need to say, I guess.



Are you sure? Perhaps funastrum was being diplomatic and didn't want to also mention this person was a member of this forum. But this person probably isn't because I think I would have noticed. 

Seriously? Whatever I decide? What am I making a decision about?  I thought I had stated an opinion which you challenged so I was explaining my viewpoint. 

Finally something we can agree on after all. It is interesting to see what people feel the need to say. Very interesting. It's also interesting to see who they say it to and how it is said. 

However, on everything else we'll have to agree to disagree. You have a science background, I have arts & humanities background so it's doubtful we'll ever find common ground on the subject of soapmaking. As for the implication I'm picking on one specific person, trust me when I say you will know if I'm "picking" on someone. I don't bother to be nice. You just haven't been a member long enough to see it.


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## Corinne

I walked away from this thread for a while in order to retain composure, as it was quite obvious to me that there was some discussion being had about my recent post regarding farmers markets.

I simply want to state that I do not believe that I have in any way pretended to be more experienced than I am when it comes to soapmaking (hence my signature), but many people have jumped to the conclusion that because this is a soapmaking forum,"new business", "farmers markets" and "soap" are all one and the same.

I went into detail on this a bit in the other thread, but I don't know why my soap was called out particularly when I had expressed no intention of selling my soap to the broader public initially, but rather an intention to sell in general. I believe I had mentioned before that I make much more than soap, and soap is not the main thing I intend to sell.

In regards to the initial topic of this thread, I completely agree: that girl is irresponsible.

But, for myself and other people on this forum to be referenced as "irresponsible" simply because we have expressed our intentions to start up businesses... I just feel that emotions have been ruling this thread rather than actual desire to help.

I know that I don't know everything. I have expressed that before. But that does not mean that I know nothing, or that I am incapable of running a successful business from an early stage (if 9 months into planning is very early). I had hoped that it wouldn't be necessary for me to go into such detail to defend what I have been passionately developing for 9 months.

I repeat: you can't judge a book by its cover. Please do not simply make assumptions as to what someone is selling etc. (in regards to my thread). And please do not label people as irresponsible without making sure you have completely understood their intentions.

Sorry for getting off topic again. I'm just getting tired of these rabbit trails that are offensive mainly because there are so many assumptions being made.

On another note, typing on a phone is ridiculous.


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## CanaDawn

Hazel said:


> Are you sure? Perhaps funastrum was being diplomatic and didn't want to also mention this person was a member of this forum. But this person probably isn't because I think I would have noticed.



Perhaps.  We can play makebelieve and say it was anything at all, but it was noticeable after a certain point.



Hazel said:


> Seriously? Whatever I decide? What am I making a decision about?  I thought I had stated an opinion which you challenged so I was explaining my viewpoint.



You talked about shutting down the thread.  That would be your decision.





Hazel said:


> However, on everything else we'll have to agree to disagree. You have a science background, I have arts & humanities background so it's doubtful we'll ever find common ground on the subject of soapmaking.



Which I still simply don't understand.  What you assert about lye makes absolutely no sense to me at all.  You understand about transferable skills, I assume, so I don't comprehend how you reached your position at all.  I've clearly stated that I don't deny the artistic component of soaping.  There's no way to deny that it involves chemistry (because it does, that's how it happens).  So, I'm at a loss.  Believe what you like, I guess.

I still stand by my original thought that someone who has professional lab experience (not a couple freshman courses required for an arts degree, but a career in the lab) has transferable skills that will work just fine in a home setting, and those people start off at an advantage to those with no, or little, chemical handling experience.  The substances used are identical, the safety concerns are identical, the handling skills are identical.


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## CanaDawn

Corinne said:


> I walked away from this thread for a while in order to retain composure



Well no...you left the forum, you said.  



Corinne said:


> (if 9 months into planning is very early)



I don't frankly CARE what someone miles and miles away from me decides to do with their time, since the impact to me (other than scrolling past reams of posting) is nil.  HOWEVER - yes.  In the world of small business (or ANY business) 9 months of planning and preparing to BEGIN a business is VERY VERY early in the process of being a business.  "According to Bloomberg, 8 out of 10 entrepreneurs who start businesses fail within the first 18 months. A whopping 80% crash and burn." http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/09/12/five-reasons-8-out-of-10-businesses-fail/  (PS, there's a LOT of good advice in that article)

So, you're really not-even-out-of-the-starting-gates level "very early".


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## Corinne

Yes, I forgot to turn off my e-mail notifications (which turned out to be very bad for me, because in trying to explain myself I seem to have worsened the situation). I won't comment on that any more at least because I don't want to keep beating that horse...

And thank you. I really was only trying to defend myself because I felt targeted. Now I see that I let certain things get to me when they shouldn't have. Thank you for the information!


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## godschild

I hope everyone on here knows that I too believe that selling within a week is ridiculous.  I do like this forum and its members very much.  I respect yall and have said many times how thankful I am to have found it and everyone on here.  I guess I should've said something along the lines of, enough with the selling too early threads.  Other people may not, but I get it.  I understand that products need to be thoroughly tested etc before they go on the public at larges' skin.  It does make the handmade soap industry look bad when bad soaps float around.  Like I said, I have bought bad soaps as well from soapers that said they have been doing it forever and just because you have done something forever doesn't mean you do it well.  I should've went back and told them I wanted a refund and that they needed to go back to soap school before they sold another bar of soap.  I want to learn all I can and keep getting better with time like yall have.  I feel that this is a wonderful resource and it's great to be able to learn from yall.  Again, I'm thankful.  I just hope my products can speak for themselves whenever I sell.  I will be selling this fall but only my soaps that I'm proud of and know are great soaps.  I would never want my name on an inferior product.  I have a lot of soaping to look forward to because I have 2 big tubs of fos to use lol. I'm happy to say that I have good recipes now that I have tried and have faith in.  My beginning ones have even turned out good because I started off on the right foot with recipes that I got from good soapers that were generous and had yall to help me with the ones I have made on my own with soapcalc   I'm glad I learned how to use that sucker and the properties of oils etc as well.  I wish yall the best in your soaping and I hope you wish the same for me.  May God bless yall.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I think that she is rather underestimating what is involved, indeed!

The question is not really "when can I go in to business?" but "at what point can I go in to business and make a success of it?" - the answer to the first is "whenever, with caveats" and the latter "maybe never!"

In my case, I think that the caveats are that firstly, they need to know enough that every batch is safe.  Secondly, someone should not need to ask questions about something that they are selling. If I sell a salt bar, then I should not really have many questions about salt bars. If I then want to sell a shampoo bar, then questions about formulations (I should be able to bring some ideas to the table, of course) should not be met with shock. If I am selling lotion bars, I should not really have many questions about lotion bars. If I then want to sell a bottled lotion, then questions on that should also not be met with shock.

When people who are selling ask for help tweaking a recipe that they are selling, I try to avoid answering. I also avoid the threads with "tell me your best recipe" in the title as I feel that these make it harder to learn. But that is just my viewpoint.


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## funastrum

Thanks everyone for your contribution to this thread.  It has been a good debate for sure, and I am certain that there is some good information for those who are considering going into business.  I can assure you that I am not speaking about anyone from this forum, I have only seen her frequent soap facebook groups. As far as I know she is not in this forum.


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## margaret

*how about tutorials...*

It doesn't surprise me to see new soapers selling their wares, the internet and yes the Soap Queen contribute to the idea of "You too can Make money selling your soap"... I don't tweak recipes.. I really don't know a lot of the chemistry behind the process but been making soap since before stick blenders were a necessary tool...JMO Also have some boxes of "USB" (unidentifiable soap bars).


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## freesia792

I was reading forums, watching You Tube videos, learning about soapcalc.org and how to use it, and buying soap from crafters for 4 years before I ever made my first batch of soap. I LOVED IT! I have been making soap for just over a year now. I still smile when I ask a butcher if they will sell me tallow, or I go into a ethnic market, find an oil I've never heard of and ask the proprietor about it. I get my answers and I'm asked  "can I ask why you'd want it?" My smile is so big it HAS to be ugly, and I tell them "I make soap". For this reason alone I know I'm not ready to sell. 
I know it's not really, but it still feels like a miracle to me. I read about the chemical reaction and how it works, but still - for me, it's a miracle. I've tried about 40 of my own recipes so far (friends and family haven't bought soap since I started making it) they love most of my recipes. 
I come to this forum and see so many beautiful soaps. Mine look nothing like them. Mine are plain but sometimes I do color some with different color clays and other natural colorants, but that in itself is a learning curve. Mine are also not as nicely scented as most describe theirs to be on the forums. That's when  I learned about burn off of eo's. First thing anyone does with home crafted soap is to smell it. I have no points regarding this yet either. 
My product is useful, very pleasant to use, but there is no way I could compete at this time with the beautiful products I see sellers market. 
I also know I am not a natural talent. If I wish to become a seller one day, it's going to take a lot of hard work on my behalf (I won't mention the expense because I don't know if I can keep it up much longer and it makes me worried I'm going to have to quit trying). 
I know there are many people who are a much quicker study than I am, and it wouldn't surprise me that they beat me to market. 
That said, I've purchased some pretty crappy soap at farmers markets, craft shows, etc. I've purchased some I truly loved too. 
Maybe in a year or two I'll be ready to sell a product I'm truly proud of. 

Mary
Minnesota
When mine look nice and I can tell you how nice it smells, I'll actually post a picture. 

Mary
Minnesota, U.S.A.


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## Stacy

As a newbie and someone with the long term goal of selling, I just wanted to say that my personal experience with this forum has been wonderful.  I've learned a lot both by reading extensively and having questions answered.

I think the thing I appreciate most is that people who have successful businesses are open with their experience down the the point of sharing techniques and recipes. They certainly have no obligation and indeed are taking a risk that they are educating their competitors.

I used to work at an international company moderating forums and doing social media (before it was called social media) and I continued in forums long after I left my job. This forum has to be amongst the most welcoming and friendly I have been on.  I'm quite sure this place has it's share of conflicts, but the environment is one of encouragement and sharing rather than the toxic one-ups-manship and sabotage seen in many many other places (forums in general not just soapmaking).

This is not meant in an unkind way but something I seriously hope anyone who is deeply offended by this thread considers. Having had my own business before, you need the skill, experience and confidence not only to sell your product but  educate your customers on your industry as a whole. If you can be derailed by a few strangers on a message board, you might want to consider what will happen when you come face to face with someone who doesn't have the social grace to treat you well, or (unfortunately) just wants to put you on the spot and make you uncomfortable.


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## Jaccart789

Stacy...said very well!


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