# how natural is lye?



## isis (Mar 20, 2013)

Hello,

I am very new to the idea of making soap. My goal is to make a soap that is completely natural. I have a couple of books "the soap makers companion" and "the natural soap book", (I admit I haven't been able to read too much of them yet), what I have read so far, it appears that you have to use lye. My question is, how can a natural soap be made if there is lye in it? is it still considered natural? Any and all help is very much appreciated! Thank you!

~Isis


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## three_little_fishes (Mar 20, 2013)

Lye is natural. It's made from wood ash and water. ETA: I think it can also be made from salt and gelatin, both also natural. 

Hope that helps some! I'm new to soapmaking myself so hopefully some people who know more can help out too.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 20, 2013)

To answer your specific question, the answer is no -- sodium hydroxide (lye) is not normally found lying around in nature, so soap made from lye is not strictly "natural" as you seem to define the term. Sodium hydroxide is far too reactive chemically. It wants to react quickly with other materials to produce something other than sodium hydroxide. 

Sodium hydroxide, as it is produced today, is made by passing an electric current through a concentrated brine (brine = very salty water). The salt (sodium chloride) in the brine breaks down from the electric current. The process is called electrolysis. The products of this chemical reaction are chlorine gas and sodium hydroxide. I used to work in a chemical plant that did exactly this. The brine used was ancient sea water pumped from deep underground.

You will probably have to find a compromise stance on this issue, if you want to make soap. Cuz there's no way around using sodium hydroxide (or potassium hydroxide) to make soap.

--DeeAnna


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Mar 20, 2013)

three_little_fishes said:


> Lye is natural. It's made from wood ash and water.



What you are thinking of is potassium hydroxide aka Caustic potash or potash lye.


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## Lindy (Mar 21, 2013)

Moonshea Botanicals said:


> What you are thinking of is potassium hydroxide aka Caustic potash or potash lye.



Which is used to make liquid soap.  When done in the 'olden' days they would have to "salt the soap" which literally means to add salt which causes the soap to thicken which was then poured into boxes with absorbent material to dry and cure.


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## 100%Natural (Mar 21, 2013)

Unless you make your own lye from scratch, the old fashioned way, I don't think we can call it natural.  It's no different with oxides and micas.  They started out natural too, but have been morphed into lab creations.  As far as I know they're all safe to use, but not entirely natural.  

I would love to be able to say my soaps are 100% Natural, but in all good conscience, I can't.  All because of the lye.  Darn it!


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## 100%Natural (Mar 21, 2013)

Check out this link from EWG.  Really good website for a ton of serious reading.  

http://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/706075/SODIUM_HYDROXIDE/


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## Genny (Mar 21, 2013)

I prefer personal care truth over EWG
http://personalcaretruth.com/

EWG used to be pretty good.  But now they use old, out of date studies in their research.  Plus, they give ingredients a rating, even though they say they have no data on it.  How can you do that?  They give Lime Essential Oil a C because it contains formeldahyde :eh:


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## AlchemyandAshes (Mar 21, 2013)

100%Natural said:


> Check out this link from EWG.  Really good website for a ton of serious reading.
> 
> http://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/706075/SODIUM_HYDROXIDE/



I wouldn't use the EWG website, personally. It is another "fear mongering" website. If you look at half the stuff listed on EWG website(s), everything causes cancer. They seem to use "sensationalism" to promote their purpose/claims.

PersonalCareTruth.com uses scientific research to back up their claims/opinions/results.  

Ah, the "natural" conundrum...

As for the "is lye natural" debate...commercial lye that we purchase is not natural, but as other people have stated, it is a "processing agent" more than an "ingredient" (even though I'm an advocate of listing it on your ingredients label). If you push the "natural" definition...unless you pluck it off a tree or dig it up from the Earth and use it as is, it isn't "natural". Unless youre rendering your own fats or extracting your own vegetable oils, they have been processed through either chemical or mechanical means. Same with EOs. On the other end of "natural", there are "nature identical" FOs and oxides. We use electric stick blenders, silicone molds, etc...so everyone's definition of "natural" may be different, but I'll share mine (and my business "model", so to speak):

Natural IMO:  Herbs or Clays as colorants, EOs as scent...I personally use vegetable oils, but animal fats are obviously natural also. All these things are "naturally derived", meaning they are found in nature, though possibly not in the form they are used in. EOs are found in the plant matter and need various extraction methods to obtain them...but they are naturally sourced. Same with herbs and clays. 
I obviously use commercially produced lye for safety and consistency. No way around that. (Yes, you can make your own potash, but I wouldn't for products I intend to sell to the public.)
I'm not so sure how I feel about oxides (I don't use them) or "nature identical" ingredients. Micas are mostly lab created to avoid lead contamination found in the natural source, so obviously not "natural", but probably safer than the natural version (I don't use Micas either). I do use a "natural" Almond Fragrance that is derived from Cinnamon Bark (benzaldehyde), so I still consider that natural - not natural Almond, but Cinnamon is natural in my book.

Keep in mind that my opinion of "natural" may be different than others...I don't expect you to substitute my judgment for your own...just sharing


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## AlchemyandAshes (Mar 21, 2013)

Genny! Again? We may have been separated at birth...


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## 100%Natural (Mar 21, 2013)

Great points on the out of date information.  I find EWG helpful with their actual product ratings.  I can look at a brand of soap and its ingredients then compare it to my recipe and get a decent idea of where my bar stands.  

I can't wait to check out PersonalCareTruth.com!

Here's another website worth checking out.  This is one of my absolute favourites.  http://www.davidsuzuki.org/issues/h...ic-products/?gclid=CLzKlZuT6LQCFegWMgodGS0AWw

It's Canadian but applies all around I think.

I'm really glad to find some like minded people because my friends and family don't understand soap talk very well...lol.


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## Genny (Mar 21, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> Genny! Again? We may have been separated at birth...



Possibly, except you're older than me :twisted:


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## AlchemyandAshes (Mar 21, 2013)

Genny said:


> Possibly, except you're older than me :twisted:



Rub it in, Genny...Rub it in...:evil:

I prefer to think of myself as "vintage", like a fine wine:
"Oh, this 1973 vintage Chateau Bladdityblah will go purrrrrfect with the Truffle Oil braised Escargot!"

Doesn't that sound better than:
"I'm 39, but some days I feel 89. **** kids!"


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## houseofwool (Mar 21, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> Doesn't that sound better than:
> "I'm 39, but some days I feel 89. **** kids!"



Isn't that the gawd's honest truth!


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## Genny (Mar 21, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> "Oh, this 1973 vintage Chateau Bladdityblah will go purrrrrfect with the Truffle Oil braised Escargot!"



Snails?  I had them once, couldn't stand them.  

How about a nice expensive chocolate instead?


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## AlchemyandAshes (Mar 21, 2013)

Ooh, chocolate! Yes!
And it's "natural"! ;-)


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## houseofwool (Mar 21, 2013)

And loaded with healthy things like antioxidants.  If it is dark chocolate, I consider it to be health food, particularly when paired with a good red wine.


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## Genny (Mar 21, 2013)

houseofwool said:


> And loaded with healthy things like antioxidants.  If it is dark chocolate, I consider it to be health food, particularly when paired with a good red wine.



I really don't like dark chocolate, only milk chocolate.  But it's "milk chocolate". Everyone knows that milk's good for you  

Of course when I told my 10 yr old daughter that once, she said, "If milk's so healthy for you, why are cows so fat?"


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## houseofwool (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm not a red wine or dark chocolate fan, but paired, they are pretty good.


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## lizflowers42 (Mar 21, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> I prefer to think of myself as "vintage", like a fine wine:
> "Oh, this 1973 vintage Chateau Bladdityblah will go purrrrrfect with the Truffle Oil braised Escargot!"



Are you guys huffing cookie dough essence again?


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## S_S (Mar 21, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> "I'm 39, but some days I feel 89. **** kids!"



Haha! I can relate. When faced with an obstacle I think to myself, "I have 2 teenagers and a tween - I can do this!"  I also like to inform said offspring that their mom has been making the world a little more awesome 1974.  A year in history they cannot fathom.


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## AlchemyandAshes (Mar 21, 2013)

lizflowers42 said:


> Are you guys huffing cookie dough essence again?



:shifty: Cookie Dough Essence? What Cookie Dough Essence? :shifty:
Nope, no Cookie Dough Essence here...especially not hidden in my sock drawer...absolutely not :shifty:


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## Lindy (Mar 21, 2013)

100%Natural said:


> Great points on the out of date information.  I find EWG helpful with their actual product ratings.  I can look at a brand of soap and its ingredients then compare it to my recipe and get a decent idea of where my bar stands.
> 
> I can't wait to check out PersonalCareTruth.com!
> 
> ...



As a fellow Canadian I have to say I can't stand David Suzuki.  He is an alarmist of the ninth degree.  I've heard too many negative stories as to what he has done to students to make me happy with him.  His views are extremely slanted and prejudiced.  He only looks at one side of an issue and then rants.....

Sorry - vent over....  :Kitten Love:


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Mar 21, 2013)

I am part of SCA (Society For Creative Anachronism) and my local group puts on a fall demo. I wanted to show the 'olden days' process of what went into soapmaking. Beginning with ashes & water. Then straining an already combined mixture to show caustic potash. Possibly floating an fresh egg in it. And then some oils and herbs. Culminating with some handmade soap made with modern lye for sale. 

Yeah, I am a glutton for punishment. LOL


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## Smee (Mar 21, 2013)

39?!?!  You are ONLY 39?!??!?!?!
and Genny is younger than you???

pppffffttttttttt...kids

I feel every one of my years right now...:sick:


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Mar 21, 2013)

Smee said:


> 39?!?!  You are ONLY 39?!??!?!?!
> and Genny is younger than you???
> 
> pppffffttttttttt...kids
> ...



there is alot of us 39 year olds...well I am closer to 40 now.......but that is not what I meant. FEAR US! LOL


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## Badger (Mar 21, 2013)

Smee, I am with you, I am feeling old right now... I am not much older then Shawnee, but I definitely feel every one of those years ;-)


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## Smee (Mar 21, 2013)

Moonshea Botanicals said:


> there is alot of us 39 year olds...well I am closer to 40 now.......but that is not what I meant. FEAR US! LOL



Fear you?  HA!  I scoff in your general direction! :crazy:

Old age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071004093236AANS0YG


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Mar 21, 2013)

Smee said:


> Fear you?  HA!  I scoff in your general direction! :crazy:
> 
> Old age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071004093236AANS0YG



:shock: EEP! I have been scoffed at! Like in a Monty Python type way? XD


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## Smee (Mar 21, 2013)

You know Monty Python?  Have you seen the Holy Grail?!?!

Ah, welcome to my world!  C'mon in & have a swig with me, then, my new friend!
You too, Badger!


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## Lindy (Mar 21, 2013)

Moonshea Botanicals said:


> I am part of SCA (Society For Creative Anachronism) and my local group puts on a fall demo. I wanted to show the 'olden days' process of what went into soapmaking. Beginning with ashes & water. Then straining an already combined mixture to show caustic potash. Possibly floating an fresh egg in it. And then some oils and herbs. Culminating with some handmade soap made with modern lye for sale.
> 
> Yeah, I am a glutton for punishment. LOL



I think that is a wonderful idea.  There is a group in California that do that too, but I don't think they are making their own lye.  Floating the egg is a great idea, that will let you know your strength of the lye and then make sure you have lots of salt there to salt your soap once it's been cooking for a bit.  I would love to do this, but I would want to have a group of women who would take turns making the soap....  

I really hope you do it and take pictures, lots and lots of pictures.


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Mar 21, 2013)

Lindy said:


> I think that is a wonderful idea.  There is a group in California that do that too, but I don't think they are making their own lye.  Floating the egg is a great idea, that will let you know your strength of the lye and then make sure you have lots of salt there to salt your soap once it's been cooking for a bit.  I would love to do this, but I would want to have a group of women who would take turns making the soap....
> 
> I really hope you do it and take pictures, lots and lots of pictures.



The lye I would be making would be for demo purposes only. I might use it in my own soaps to experiment with. But otherwise I would be getting modern made caustic potash or regular lye for the soaps for sale to the public. I'd rather not take any chances with contaminants.

Yes I will be taking pictures.


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## Lindy (Mar 21, 2013)

LOL - it should be fun....


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## Moonshea Botanicals (Mar 21, 2013)

Smee said:


> You know Monty Python?  Have you seen the Holy Grail?!?!
> 
> Ah, welcome to my world!  C'mon in & have a swig with me, then, my new friend!
> You too, Badger!



To be a medievalist ya have to know quotes from Monty Python & the Holy Grail!

"She's got huge ......tracks of land!"
"Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!" 
"Bring out ya dead!.... I'm not dead yet! I feel happy!"
"Oh, she turned me into a newt! A newt? .....Well, I got better."
"[Benedictine Chanting]...........*whack with a wooden board to the face* [Continues Chanting]"


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## christinemm (Aug 30, 2013)

after the saponification process is complete no lye is left in the soap, if that matters...


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## DeeAnna (Aug 30, 2013)

ChristineMM -- Yes, when you use modern KOH or NaOH and a properly designed recipe, the lye should all be consumed in the saponification reaction. But using a traditional "pot-ash" or "soda" lye made from leeching the lye from ashes, that is not necessarily the case. You don't know precisely how strong the lye solution is, so the results are more variable. Also there might be particles of ash left in the lye. I agree with Moonshea -- the soap would not be something I'd want to sell to the general public.


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## neeners (Aug 30, 2013)

Moonshea Botanicals said:


> To be a medievalist ya have to know quotes from Monty Python & the Holy Grail!
> 
> "She's got huge ......tracks of land!"
> "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"
> ...


 

"We are the knights who say NI" is my favourite line.  mostly b/c my name is Ni.  haha


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## judymoody (Aug 30, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> Rub it in, Genny...Rub it in...:evil:
> 
> I prefer to think of myself as "vintage", like a fine wine:
> "Oh, this 1973 vintage Chateau Bladdityblah will go purrrrrfect with the Truffle Oil braised Escargot!"
> ...



Darling, if you're vintage, I'm a veritable antique.

And yes, kids do not keep you young.  They age you like nobody's business.  That said, I wouldn't trade mine for the world.  They are the light of my life.


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## MaitriBB (Aug 30, 2013)

AlchemyandAshes said:


> Rub it in, Genny...Rub it in...:evil:
> 
> I prefer to think of myself as "vintage", like a fine wine:
> "Oh, this 1973 vintage Chateau Bladdityblah will go purrrrrfect with the Truffle Oil braised Escargot!"
> ...


 
You're not the only vintage one here then


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## Lindy (Sep 2, 2013)

Another vintage here.... LOL


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## kazmi (Sep 2, 2013)

Another 'vintage' here too


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