# Aussie Soapers - NICNAS Registration



## ChrissyB (May 4, 2009)

Hi Everyone
Talking to a friend of mine, I was made aware of the need to register with a government body to be able to sell soaps here in Australia, seeing as though soap is seen as a cosmetic (through the eyes of the govt, I see it as necessity, but I digress).
As best I can work out, even if you sell one bar of soap, you need to be registered with NICNAS at the tier 1 level, at a cost of $380 per year (August through to Sept, or something like that). You only qualify to register as tier one if you sell less than $500,000 for that registered year. 
Over that and you go to tier 2, don't think I would have to worry about that! LOL
So, my question is this: How many Aussie Soapers that sell their wares have gone through this process, and was it difficult to register, there seems to be an awful lot of processes to go through to get "approved".
Declaring all ingredients, etc....
The friend that I was speaking with is a very renowned soapmaker, and for her the NICNAS registration is making selling soap not really worth it at all.So where do the rest of us stand? And apparently it's illegal to sell soap if not registered and approved.


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## Gobbler's Run (May 4, 2009)

I am registered with NICNAS as there is a huge fine for selling with out being registered.  I just can't afford to be fined.  I pay $381 a year in August.  The cost of that plus the $600 product and public liability insurance means I need to sell a lot of soap each year but saying that it's what I love to do and infact I have just given up my full time job last week to focus fully on building my business and am loving it!!!


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## Gobbler's Run (May 4, 2009)

There didn't seem to any 'approval' process at all just a matter of reading the website and labeling correctly, it's the same as the ACCC regulations on soap labeling pretty much.


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## ChrissyB (May 4, 2009)

Thanks Kristy, I'm glad someone replied to me.
I too know that there are huge fines out there if you get caught. I thought that there was a bit more to it than just filling out the forms, did you have to submit examples of your labels to them to be approved?
It's not very well advertised, or made clear, for want of a better term, that it's something that has to be done, how did you hear about it?
Is there an approval fee on top of the $381 for the year?
So, with your insurance, you're looking at selling at least $1000 worth of soap to even get back in the black.
I am not being nosy, but have you done that? Meaning, is it worth it?
And good for you being able to quit your full time job, that's great.
PS, your shaving soap is lovely! but I'll talk about that in the correct place.


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## Gobbler's Run (May 4, 2009)

I read about it on the Aussie Soap Supplies website first. Then another soaper from another forum I'm on mentioned that soapers selling on eBay were writing that they were registered and not to buy from those that aren't.  So I thought I better look into it.  I didn't have to send them anything other than the money. No approval fees or anything. You do receive a nice certificate though.  
I have been doing OK from the webstore but I do better at markets cause I just love rabbiting on about how great handmade soaps are compared to commercial.  I find if you can engage with customers and make them feel good about the product they are more comfortable buying.  I'm a real people person so I just love that side of it.  So yes I did just cover costs last year but I'm hoping that this year will be bigger and better! fingers crossed.


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## DelightSociety (May 5, 2009)

I didn't know about this, thanks for the info.

Would it only cover business? Rather than a hobbiest. I could see it being difficult to police for people who make a bit and sell at the odd market.


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## topcat (May 5, 2009)

Hi Chrissy!  Just reading this thread now.....yes, my understanding too is that you just pay your fee and fill out the forms necessary.  I am just in the process of getting started with CP (this registration isn't necessary for MP) and will definitely persue this if my business start-up takes off.

Tanya


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## kaseencook (May 5, 2009)

What! Bugger! Ages ago when I started I looked into all the legal stuff and never found anything about this registration! I found all the labeling rules, but nothing about rego. I am on their site now looking for more info about soap and can't find anything specifically about soap - they certainly do not make this stuff easy to find. :x 

Shoot, it is so expensive too, and I definitely don't sell THAT much soap to make it worth the expense and all the work that goes into making $350 worth of PROFIT on top of all the other crap.... sigh..... I am feeling a bit down now.... maybe I will have to stop selling soaps. What a pain, I don't think that making soap makers pay a huge fee with no testing of the soap is really protecting anyone from bad soap. What benefit does the government think this registration provides to the public if all you do is just pay money without any testing of the soap? Why does giving them your information have to cost so much!? I think I am just ranting now...  

Time to go cry in a hole....  :cry:


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## DelightSociety (May 5, 2009)

Whats interesting is it states you need to register if you make soap for cosmetic purposes.

Definatly a soap for the face would be considered cosmetic but what about ordinary soap? Is washing yourself considered cosmetic?


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## topcat (May 5, 2009)

My reading led me to believe that if it falls under the definition of a soap, you are expected to register.

Kaseen - I am sure it is just a money-spinner for the government.....

Tanya


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## ChrissyB (May 5, 2009)

Yes, my understanding is that the government views soap as a cosmetic product, any soap, facial or body.
And I am also of the belief if it is just a form filling process, and you pay your fee, it's just a money spinner, there isn't actually any quality control testing or any ingredient testing or anything like that.
TC, why isn't MP classed the same as CP? Is it because you don't actually make the product from scratch? But you still have to disclose to the consumer what your ingredients are right?

Aye Aye, this is all getting a bit much for me, it's making my head hurt!!


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## ChrissyB (May 5, 2009)

I also believe that there is a large fine if you are caught selling hand crafted soap but are not registered with NICNAS. I don't know how much it is, but I am trying to find out.


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## DelightSociety (May 5, 2009)

So yay! One more thing to fork out cash for. Thanks for pointing this out I would never have known otherwise.


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## Gobbler's Run (May 5, 2009)

I seem to remember that the fine is up to $13000 but I might be wrong but bloody hell its a lot :cry:


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## ChrissyB (May 5, 2009)

Yes that is a lot.
Much better option to pay the $380 than get done for $13,000. 
But it's totally ludicrous in my opinion, it's just another money grabber for the govt. I imagine that if you were operating your own business, you would be filing quarter BAS statements and paying tax on all your sales, so this is just another way for the govt to grab a few more dollars off hard working aussies that are trying to make a go of it.


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## kaseencook (May 5, 2009)

Well at least the good thing is, is if you have a soap business and make less than $100,000 you do not have to register for GST. It is just insane though! I wonder if anyone gets caught. I am sure there are tons of people out there who are not so internet savy (perhaps older people) who make and sell soap and have no idea. As well as other people like me who never found this information. Urg!


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## Manda (May 5, 2009)

*Appropriate Links*

Hi everyone,

Thanks for bringing this to attention.  I agree that not many people would be aware that these regulations are in place or even that they would apply to people who make soap, toiletries and cosmetics on a small-scale or as a hobby.

I've done some research on the NICNAS website and found some links to some vital information which may help to clarify the issue of "When does this apply to me?"

Soap Makers Fact Sheet
This fact sheet explains that MP soap makers do not need to register (providing the MP base is bought in Australia) but that CP/HP soap makers do need to register, and it explains why.

Cosmetics Fact Sheet
This fact sheet is similar to the soap fact sheet but relates to cosmetics & toiletries generally.

I do think it's wrong of the Government to charge such a substancial registration fee for small producers. I also think it's wrong that all you need to do is register and there is nothing said about any kind of monitoring of what is going into your product, as someone previously said, what benefit is this to the consumer? The consumer still has no idea whether what they're buying contains a safe formulation of ingredients.  :shock: 

-Amanda


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## ChrissyB (May 7, 2009)

I totally agree, Amanda. I think it's crazy that it's mandatory to register, yet there is no quality control component to the whole exercise.
The general public consumer doesn't benefit in anyway from this, it's just this govt dept that is raising a bit of extra revenue.
I think that soapers would be much more likely to register and be proud of their registration if it is was optional, but certified them as "quality approved by the aust govt" or something like that, versus Joe Blow making soap with no govt regulation. I know who I would buy soap from.
But it's not the situation so it's irrelevent.
Silly govt....
(coming from a public service employee.... :wink: )

Edited because I can't spell today


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## kaseencook (May 7, 2009)

I wish there was some where to petition this, like an ombudsman or something. Surely they should not be allowed to pointlessly charge those kind of registration rates without any benefit to the soap maker or public  and get away with it - especially if they have a huge fine for not obeying this silly law! It's like how some poor people in Victoria got fined a huge fine for chopping down trees on their OWN property to protect themselves from bush fire, which they were very lucky that they did because their house did not get burned down on black Saturday, if they had followed the council they would have lost their house and perhaps their lives. I could rant on and on about this kind of silly gov stuff 

They should invent the "common sense council" where silly fees and laws are abolished!


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## Becky (May 8, 2009)

There has been a lot of discussion about this on the Aussie Soapers yahoo list. I haven't logged in there in 6 months or so, so I can't quite remember the details, but a lot of the members were writing to their local member of parliament in regards to this issue.

One of the list mums went to an info session regarding the registration, and came back with quite a lot of great info. She also mentioned that people are being encouraged to dob in anyone that is not registered. That's just un-Australian!! It is something to be aware of tho, because it's an easy way for your competitor to cause trouble for you.

I do agree that it appears to be simply revenue raising, as there is no kind of quality-control process that is going along with the rego, but it is a necessary evil I think. Not paying the $380 fee is not going to be that much of a money saver if you get caught & have to pay some huge fine.


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## kaseencook (May 8, 2009)

I think for me this news means that I will not sell soap anymore as I can't afford the rego (or fine) and don't sell much soap anyway, so I think I will just have to reserve soap making for fun and product testing...

It's all just so disappointing. In economic times like these the government should be trying to encourage people to start small business, soaping being one that is accessible to many people, but fees of this magnitude just makes more oppertunites out of reach for many poor who want to help them selves. People with no money who can't get a job because their skills are not in demand (like some uni grads) are trapped in limbo because every option out costs more money then they have (small business, more training, ect.), and then they get stuck on the dole for years trying to get out and get a career or job, hoping for that lucky break. If the gov wants to get people off the dole they should give them more chances to start their own oppertunites, instead of weeding out the poor by laying down huge fees. I could go on and on, but I guess this is something I should be saying to the local member. 

I will also be starting up a soapers hub (sud central) in the near future and will have a section devoted to good causes and calls to action, I think a petition to this rego fee will be on the list! 

Cheers for the info guys, at least now I won't get a fine for something I had no idea existed


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## ChrissyB (May 8, 2009)

You know, not in a million years would I dob in someone for something like that. I agree, it's just un-Australian.
I just had a funny thought, can you imagine, if you got caught without the rego and got fined the 13 thou, and couldn't pay it and they sent you to gaol, and you were in there next to druggies and murderers, and some hard face says to you "Hey what are you in for" and you turn around and say "um, I sold some soap". Whoa that's harsh!! LOL
Seriously, I think it's a stupid rule. I will pay it if and when I decide to sell my soap, but I still think it's stupid. But I'll just follow the rules like everyone else and do what I'm told. In the meantime, I hope they change it. I wonder how long that rule and registration requirement has been in effect?


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## kaseencook (May 8, 2009)

I started up a petition, what do you think? Have I included all the points? I can still change it if you want to changes. 

http://www.gopetition.com/online/27636.html


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## Manda (May 9, 2009)

Good on you Kaseen for doing something proactive about this. I've signed it and I hope it gets loads more signatures on it.

Do you know how it works from here? How/when will it be put to the Govt?


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## kaseencook (May 9, 2009)

I'm not really sure   

I still have to look into that bit.... It's got to count for something though! I think I will probably send it to several places, local members, ministers, the NICNAS group....


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## Aponi (Feb 1, 2013)

*N.I.C.N.A.S. Registration*

Hi Everyone,

Before I get started on this subject I'd like to make sure everyone understands that although I use the CP method, I do believe in all the methods of soapmaking - be it with a pre-made soap base or starting from scratch.  MP soapers make the most beautiful of soaps and I'm certain just by looking at them they are a craft unto themselves and sometimes I envy just how clever you guys are and I do truly mean every word I've said.  For prople who want to sell soap but don't want to "play" around with lye, again nothing wrong with that at all, so here are my concerns and I'd so respect and appreciate everyone's comments to what I'm about to say so remember I'm not trying to put any craft down.

N.I.C.N.A.S. - I agree with everyone to the point that here in Australia, N.I.C.N.A.S. don't make themselves known and by that I mean known to "all" soapmakers who use sodium hydroxide or not, so to me all I can too think of is that the registration is just a money revenue source for which I'd dearly like to know just where the money goes?  And something I'm totally against is that N.I.C.N.A.S. did actually tell me that they rely on "dobbers" to find soapermakers who aren't registered - they (N.I.C.N.A.S.) said their funds were limited and could not afford inspectors to source out unregistered soapmakers - if this has changed, for those of us who are registered why haven't we been advised???

I know of so many people who sell goats milk soap (I only make goats milk soaps), say or insinuate they make the soaps themselves, mislead customers into buying their soap when in fact I know darn well they don't make the soaps themselves - you then get a percentage of their customers not wanting to try goatmilk soap again because they had a bad experience with the soap.

How can any soapmaker get a "pure white" - and believe me I'm talking about "angel wings white" - totally natural goatmilk soap with no colour added, and I include titiam dioxide as a "colour" and such a very hard bar of soap - here again I'm talking "hard" as in not being able to cut the soap bars with a sharp kitchen knife or a single hand held soap cutter without bits breaking off from the sides.  When I emailed one online soap maker, I received an email back saying "they don't actually make their own soap" (yet reading their online shop makes you think they do), this "soapmaker" also said they have totall control over what goes into their soaps, again reading one of the pages in their online shop I found it to be word for word exactly the same as another soapmaker "who makes their own soap.........................

Why can't people be honest, there's a market for all types of soaps (OMG!!! dare I say it ?) - yep!!! even cheap supermarket soaps that have so much formaldehyde in them it's starting to put undertakers out of business - anyway........................this is what I "thought" a government body like N.I.C.N.A.S. would be able to control and why I registered with them in the first place but they are to me "just another Government agency with laws unto themselves!!!!

If you're proud of your craft why not be honest about it????


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## melstan775 (Feb 1, 2013)

Why is M&P soapmaking assumed to be a "borrowed" craft?  One, you CAN make your own soapbase, in your crockpot. It's a hot process soap that is given sugar alcohols to make it remeltable and glycerin to keep it moist. Second, who cares if someone IS buying a soapbase from a supplier? 

The argument that soapbasing isn't really soapmaking is the same as saying coloring a soap isn't coloring because you used an oxide instead of pounding out your own spices, or that you didn't really fragerence a soap because you didn't distill your own EO's.  It's a moot point because *soapbase is a supply*, and frankly, why bother to make your own when you can buy it already made, with all your other *supplies*?


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## Aponi (Feb 1, 2013)

Melstan775 I do totally agree with you - as I said I only use the CP method and am not able to work the MP magic using this method - anyone who defames any craft does not understand the research and time given to that craft.

I'm hoping you didn't interpret from what I wrote, that I'm saying MP isn't a soapmaking craft OR that buying your own soap base isn't soapmaking - all the methods of soapmaking IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE a craft and the crafters of these methods are all soapmakers - what I would like to see is all forms of soapmaking being made visable - it's certinally one way of showing your craft - I'd love to see here in Australia a soapmaking craft show - all forms of soapmaking for everyone to see in one place.

If I were starting out soapmaking just now I'd be buying a pre made soap base and making soap that way, so whoever says MP or buying a pre made soap base with the crafter applying their own skills to that "isn't soap making" well!!!  those people just don't know what their talking about!!!!  And I'd love for anyone to say something like that face to face!!!

Australia has N.I.C.N.A.S. and we aren't going to get rid of N.I.C.N.A.S. because it's a government revenue source but  N.I.C.N.A.S. needs to sharpen their skills - ha!!  perhaps they can learn from the very people their taking registrations from - us soapmakers??


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## SwiftRuby (Jul 9, 2013)

I know this thread is several years old but it came up in a google search when I was looking at the Govt requirements for selling soap in Australia.  Anyway, I have looked at the NICNAS website and was pleased to find that there have been changes to NICNAS Registration Structure 2013-14.  These changes were made as people were paying annual fees that were disproportionately higher than their relative income.  From what I can work out the average soap maker will now pay about $130/year instead of nearly $400.

These changes may have come about due to people like those in this thread that have started petitions and lobbied their local MP's


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## karenbeth (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks for that information SwiftRuby. Yes it does look like a reduced fee for a threshhold under 100,000 so thanks to all people who have lobbied for this.


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## Aponi (Jul 15, 2013)

This is good news - makes all efforts of typing to anyone and everyone worthwhile.  Big thanks to SwiftRuby and this great forum for letting us know, and I'm sure N.I.C.N.A.S. would have taken my $400 this year but not give me a refund!!!! - being able to keep a little extra cash from what you earn is good :smile: Thank You


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## Rosnasharn Farm (Jul 27, 2013)

Have read the thread with great interest and that is great about the cheaper fee....but what about Product insurance covering our soaps and moisturisers??  I cannot find a australian product insurance that covers soap...Help please is much appreciated.


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## karenbeth (Jul 27, 2013)

Hi we use OAMPS for our bees and will enquire with them when I'm ready to sell soap. They are insurance brokers so that might be the way you need to go.
Karen


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## Rosnasharn Farm (Jul 27, 2013)

Thanks for that....


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## Chookie2 (Jul 27, 2013)

One good thing since this thread began is that NICNAS has reduced the fee to $138 to cater for us smaller home businesses. It was readjusted in 2013.

Oops sorry just read back a page, missed it first time. Old news I see.


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## Aponi (Jul 29, 2013)

*N.I.C.N.A.S Registration*

I've too just received my renewal for N.I.C.N.A.S. and it's gone down to $138.00 YEAH!!!!!

I do think there should be some qualifying "thingy" if you do have to register, even though it's [payment] gone down it's still just the Government getting money for doing nothing the easy way - N.I.C.N.A.S don't do anything for soapmakers that I'm aware of (?), so paying that money, to me, it's just a total rip off.

We do really well with our soaps we make and I don't mind paying for something we need to, but paying N.I.C.N.A.S. is like throwing money away, there are still wonder loads of soapmakers, knowing they do need to register but won't, making soap!!!!

Anyway, at least we don't have to pay as much now which is good.  Perhaps the ACCC need to reconsider labelling laws now - a couple of "iffy's" there is!!!!!


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