# My Fellow Larders



## John Harris (Sep 30, 2021)

I have been slowly upping my lard usage (now up to 17%) and decreasing other oil usage to compensate.  Mostly I am reducing the palm oil which is now down to 6.65%.  I am wondering about stopping the palm altogether.  I was speaking to our Owl who said I could replace all the palm with lard.  Case closed, right?

Well... I feel guilty ditching all the palm.  Afterall, it is one of the three Trinity Oils!  What do my fellow larders think?


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## Angie Gail (Sep 30, 2021)

I've never used palm oil. I use a five oil blend with Lard at 30% (the highest percentage of my oils), then Coconut oil, Olive oil, Sunflower oil, and Avocado oil. I also add in powdered goat's milk and colloidal oatmeal as my standard recipe.


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## John Harris (Sep 30, 2021)

"I've never used palm oil." A heretic in our midst!!


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## Carly B (Sep 30, 2021)

I've always thought of tallow as more of a palm replacement.  But in any case, I don't use palm oil in all my soaps.  Maybe half?  I run things through the soap calc, and if the numbers tell me I want a harder soap, I'll add some palm and take out something else.

That being said, if I had to choose one to the exclusion of the other, I'd go with lard every time.


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## dibbles (Sep 30, 2021)

I frequently use lard at 30-40%. I've started adding 5-10% of cocoa butter and like the addition with the lard recipe. I don't use palm in my lard recipes, and when I do use palm I don't include lard (or animal fats of any kind). Not to say they aren't nice together, I just do either/or. 

Like @Carly B I would choose lard over palm if I was limited to one or the other.


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## Cat&Oak (Sep 30, 2021)

You don't need palm. I actually didn't use palm for years but have fallen in love with RSPO Palm. Palm and lard are similar but lard beats it hands down in my opinion. Tallow is amazing too.


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## MrsZ (Sep 30, 2021)

I've tried palm at 40%, and I usually use lard at 40%. I like the lard, no palm recipe much better.


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## Obsidian (Sep 30, 2021)

I use lard at 50%, no palm. I have used palm in the past, it just doesn't make as nice a soap as lard does.


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## violets2217 (Sep 30, 2021)

I use lard at 50% too… and have not used Palm that I can remember. Well a wee bit of red Palm in liquid soap now that I think about it! I really like my soap.


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## Ford (Oct 1, 2021)

It's all good. Using one recipe with Palm (30%), One with lard (40%). And a third recipe with neither. Use this one for my 50/50.


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## Arimara (Oct 1, 2021)

I started out with palm, then I went to beef tallow and lard. I prefer the beef tallow to palm (too waxy) or even lard (breaks my face out) but I'll still make the occasional lard soap.


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## Tara_H (Oct 1, 2021)

I think I've used palm once... Wasn't particularly impressed.
Mostly I use tallow instead, and I've recently found that my supermarket occasionally has lard in the Polish section so I've been buying that when I see it and I like the result.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 1, 2021)

John Harris said:


> I was speaking to our Owl who said I could replace all the palm with lard. Case closed, right?


Heeey, don't make that sound as if I had anything to say in favour of barbarian slaughterhouse remnants. Crown of Creation, blah blah. 


John Harris said:


> Afterall, it is one of the three Trinity Oils!








						Basic trinity of oils starter formula
					

A balanced bar starts with the Basic Trinity of Soapmaking Oils:  BASIC TRINITY OF OILS STARTER  FORMULA  Olive Oil 35%  ~ for emollience, conditioning Coconut 25% (or PKO* or Babassu) ~ for hardness, lather Palm or Lard 40% (or GV* Shortening from Walmart) ~ for bulk  *PKO = Palm Kernel Oil...




					www.soapmakingforum.com
				



says “Palm or lard”, so lard has always been on eye level with palm oil! For good reasons, since working with lard is easier (usually no need for melting up the whole batch, slower to come to trace – both proper and false), and it does add more to a soap than just a fair amount hardness (that skin feel that many are raving about). (ETA: Apropos, hardness and longevity of a soap with the same “hardness” number is better when achieved with lard than with palm oil.)

Lard is also lighter in colour than even the most refined RBD palm oil, so it's the darling of those aiming for really white soap and/or avoiding colour distortion due to oils. The fatty acid profile of palm oil is “boring” (essentially just oleic + palmitic acid), but lard brings “more of everything”, particularly much more stearic acid to offset its overall lower saturated FA fraction.

Your 6.65% of palm oil are okay if you're adding it to use up a stockpile of palm oil, or if you want to want to keep the possibility open to colour your batter with red palm oil without changing the recipe. Or if you gain irrational satisfaction from weighing and fusing together many fats and oils (that's a valid reason, don't ask where I know that from ). You're _not_ doing it for the hardness/palmitic acid. Neither is price a consideration at this minute level of addi(c)tion. Nor label appeal (unless you do it to deter palm haters).


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## Johnez (Oct 1, 2021)

John Harris said:


> I have been slowly upping my lard usage (now up to 17%) and decreasing other oil usage to compensate.  Mostly I am reducing the palm oil which is now down to 6.65%.  I am wondering about stopping the palm altogether.  I was speaking to our Owl who said I could replace all the palm with lard.  Case closed, right?
> 
> Well... I feel guilty ditching all the palm.  Afterall, it is one of the three Trinity Oils!  What do my fellow larders think?



@IrishLass  made a post about subbing palm, though it doesn't specifically answer your question, I figure it's useful to share anyway. This post has been one of the most valuable in my learning about soap and fatty acids. Many posts are just as good, but this one nailed the concept of looking hard at profiles, soaping with a goal in mind, and getting creative:



IrishLass said:


> While fiddling around on SoapCalc one day a few years ago, I was able to come up with a unique combination of specific veggie butters and oils whose combined fatty acid profile was so close to palm oil's fatty acid profile that it could in theory be used as a substitute:
> 
> Shea butter 45.5% / Cocoa Butter 43% / Sunflower Oil 10% / Coconut Oil 1.5%
> 
> ...


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## melinda48 (Oct 1, 2021)

John Harris said:


> I have been slowly upping my lard usage (now up to 17%) and decreasing other oil usage to compensate.  Mostly I am reducing the palm oil which is now down to 6.65%.  I am wondering about stopping the palm altogether.  I was speaking to our Owl who said I could replace all the palm with lard.  Case closed, right?
> 
> Well... I feel guilty ditching all the palm.  Afterall, it is one of the three Trinity Oils!  What do my fellow larders think?


Have you tried a 100% lard soap? White, gentle, hard. A wonderful bar of soap!


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## Ford (Oct 1, 2021)

Mmm, 100% lard. Not tried a batch. Will have to put on "to do" list. I've been hesitant with 100% recipes. They never display the numbers I like.


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## ScentimentallyYours (Oct 1, 2021)

I have always used lard OR tallow OR palm, never a combination.  urrent recipes use 40% of lard, tallow, or palm. I only use palm for my vegetarian friends, especially my Hindu friends. We have a vibrant Indian community in my town.  There seems to be a slight texture difference in the palm oil soap. I think tallow and lard make better soaps, plus the fats are a byproduct of the meat industry.

This evening I am going to render my own tallow from suet, which is now available in some New England supermarkets.  Does anyone know off the top of their head if high-quality suet has a different FA profile from other animal fats?  Suet is a much whiter fat, harder at room temperature, too.

I may have to try upping the animal fats to 50% to see how that formula compares.


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## lenarenee (Oct 1, 2021)

Hmm, since you're asking people who already love lard what you should do, I'm not sure how seriously to take your question.

If you can take the agony of making a small 1 lb batch (or whatever "small" size you can manage before you start panicking) Try making a high lard soap and test it out.

I used to use 60ish percentage of lard. Then, just got bored and wanted to work with palm and butters again as alternatives. Keep in mind I love all soap and all soap recipes because I'm just fascinated by all of it. But palm really doesn't have any redeeming qualities other than the hardness it offers, in my opinion. (especially when you compare a 100% palm with a 100% lard.). Lard doesn't make big bubbles. While many call its lather creamy, I don't because the lather is thick and voluminous.  My lard alternative recipes are SLOW to cure despite not using olive oil (unless I have some to use up). They're "fine" at  6 weeks but really need 3 months! The high lard soaps were quite acceptably cured at 3 weeks, although I waited until 4 weeks to give away.

One possible downside is that my high lard soaps didn't seem to have as long of a shelf life as the palm or butter recipes. However, I also didn't shrink wrap and pay strict attention to their storage like I do now....because  make bigger batches, have fewer places to give my soap away to and have more sitting around. I do use sodium citrate in all my recipes because our area has hard water, and am thinking of adding EDTA.

*sigh*.  And now I'm dying to get some tallow to play with. I haven't used tallow since before the pandemic but I love the nice "crisp" bar they make. But geez...I don't need another 50lb box of fat to store!

Oh - and I agree with Resolvable Owl with the whiteness of lard. I'm picking about colors; I want my soap to be exactly the color the dry mica is - and that takes a white recipe. Palm and olive aren't conducive to that so I had to compromise on my colors.  And let talk about the HOUR of swirling time you'll have with a high lard recipe; I make a triple batch to make 3 different swirled soaps and have more than enough time to ....sometimes way too much time!

ETA: Also using palm and/or butters instead of lard I had to start using sugar in my recipe because the lather needed the boost despite using the same amount of coconut oil.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 1, 2021)

melinda48 said:


> Have you tried a 100% lard soap? White, gentle, hard. A wonderful bar of soap!


I'd like to try that.


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## Obsidian (Oct 1, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> I'd like to try that.



As much as I love lard, I don't like it at 100%. The lather is dismal and the bars develop a old stale scent fairly quickly.
A 80% lard, 20% coconut is nice though. Long lasting, gentle, more lather and it doesn't get the stale scent.
These bars last so long I get tired of looking at them in the shower lol.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 1, 2021)

Obsidian said:


> As much as I love lard, I don't like it at 100%. The lather is dismal and the bars develop a old stale scent fairly quickly.
> A 80% lard, 20% coconut is nice though. Long lasting, gentle, more lather and it doesn't get the stale scent.
> These bars last so long I get tired of looking at them in the shower lol.


oh good to know' nothing is worse then a bar that smell's icky.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 1, 2021)

ScentimentallyYours said:


> I have always used lard OR tallow OR palm, never a combination.  urrent recipes use 40% of lard, tallow, or palm. I only use palm for my vegetarian friends, especially my Hindu friends. We have a vibrant Indian community in my town.  There seems to be a slight texture difference in the palm oil soap. I think tallow and lard make better soaps, plus the fats are a byproduct of the meat industry.
> 
> This evening I am going to render my own tallow from suet, which is now available in some New England supermarkets.  Does anyone know off the top of their head if high-quality suet has a different FA profile from other animal fats?  Suet is a much whiter fat, harder at room temperature, too.
> 
> I may have to try upping the animal fats to 50% to see how that formula compares.


Why not combine Lard & Palm in the same soap recipe? Maybe a big mistake i've been making?


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## lenarenee (Oct 1, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Why not combine Lard & Palm in the same soap recipe? Maybe a big mistake i've been making?



Not at all, many people do that. I've done that. (I personally think the qualities of the lard are "hidden" by the palm, but others would disagree)


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 1, 2021)

Nothing wrong with this, except that you earn the antipathy of those who are outraged by killing pigs _and_ those by killing orangutans.


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## Quilter99755 (Oct 1, 2021)

I love my lard soaps. Tried some no-stir palm last year and was not impressed. I probably won't buy any more. Lard from 20% to 80% and anywhere in between. The only time I ever got a thumb's up from my grandson was a 80% lard and 20% CO for testing scents. He wasn't impressed with the scent but said he loved the soap. I need to make a small batch just for him one of these days as the 20% CO is too high for my old skin. I'm pretty much into lard, RBO and maybe a butter or another soft oil. I play with the percentages of the oils all the time and pretty much can't tell the difference. I usually leave my soaps all cure 3 months and after supplying family with them, I rarely have any left after 6 months. Currently I have a lot on hand all within the 4-6 months stages as I had to move my oils to the garage this summer in order to house my daughter and grandson after a fire. I didn't want any of the oils to go rancid in the heat. So I had a huge soaping binge before the heat of the summer hit us. I do have one bar from Sept 2020 and another from Dec 2020 that are both 40% lard and neither of them have any issues. Love the creamy lather.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 1, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> Not at all, many people do that. I've done that. (I personally think the qualities of the lard are "hidden" by the palm, but others would disagree)


Oh ok' I was thinking that both fats have similar fatty acid profiles. Thank you Dear.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 1, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Nothing wrong with this, except that you earn the antipathy of those who are outraged by killing pigs _and_ those by killing orangutans.


Oh yes understandable. Thank you & appreciate your input.


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## Kaolin washer (Oct 1, 2021)

I dont like anything that comes from a pig, but i have liked the Tallow, the only reason i would eliminate it is if i was making a soap bar that may ward off mosquitoes, as i would not want any animal smell to atract the bugs, I have never used palm, yet but use coconut oil , olive, and tallow,


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## dibbles (Oct 1, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Why not combine Lard & Palm in the same soap recipe? Maybe a big mistake i've been making?


No mistake. I just personally only use palm occasionally, when I want an animal fat free bar.


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## lenarenee (Oct 1, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Oh yes understandable. Thank you & appreciate your input.



You would split the total amount between the 2 fats, rather than doubling them. Example: if your Recipe is 40% palm, then don’t also use 40% lard and end up with 80% . Use a combo of half palm, half lard, or however you want to split it.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 1, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> You would split the total amount between the 2 fats, rather than doubling them. Example: if your Recipe is 40% palm, then don’t also use 40% lard and end up with 80% . Use a combo of half palm, half lard, or however you want to split it.


Oh ok' got it, Thank you Dear.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 1, 2021)

dibbles said:


> No mistake. I just personally only use palm occasionally, when I want an animal fat free bar.


Thank you Dear' i've not used lard in my vegan bars too, though I do love lard in soap & w/ all our country enjoying pork products we generate a lot of pork fat. Were doing our country a favor imho lol .


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## MsBeeHaven (Oct 2, 2021)

John Harris said:


> "I've never used palm oil." A heretic in our midst!!


I'm another. I use lard instead of palm.


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## Bubble Agent (Oct 2, 2021)

John Harris said:


> "I've never used palm oil." A heretic in our midst!!



Count me in - never used the stuff, not.even.once. 
Lard all the way for me, but I don`t judge those who wish to use it!
As I told you in the other thread of yours I use it in 50-60%. So you know where I stand, lol



Obsidian said:


> As much as I love lard, I don't like it at 100%. The lather is dismal and the bars develop a old stale scent fairly quickly.
> A 80% lard, 20% coconut is nice though. Long lasting, gentle, more lather and it doesn't get the stale scent.
> These bars last so long I get tired of looking at them in the shower lol.



I agree, a 100% lard soap is not much to write how about! At least not the first coupple of years... I have one that is 7 years old (no stale scent though) Wowzah, it is great! The fragrance has long faded (lemon essential oil, yeah...) I have it next to my kitchen sink that I use before washing up when I am making dinner, It sure took its time to get there, so I agree, it really needs a bit of help from cocnut without waiting it out for half a decade for it to get decent...


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## ScentimentallyYours (Oct 2, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> Why not combine Lard & Palm in the same soap recipe? Maybe a big mistake i've been making?


There’s nothing wrong with combining them. Lard, palm, and tallow have similar fatty acid profiles, so using combinations seems redundant to me. I would choose just one to weigh out when it’s time to make soap. Less work.  I’m not sure what the advantage would be in combining lard and palm instead of using one or the other.


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## Ugeauxgirl (Oct 2, 2021)

I wanted to see what all the fuss was about regarding palm, so I bought some and used it.  It was fine, but I won't buy it again.  Lard is whiter and cheaper, and I Iike lard in my soaps better than palm.  But that's 2 cents from a fellow lardinator...


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## FragranceGuy (Jan 17, 2022)

ScentimentallyYours said:


> I may have to try upping the animal fats to 50% to see how that formula compares.



My two favorite recipes that I’ve made over the last year have 48% and 60% lard. They’re great on my skin and in the calculator. I’m using mostly lard, coconut and moderate linoleic soft oils (no butters) so I have a difficult time finding values that I like with anything less than 40% lard. In response to the original post, I wouldn’t hesitate to try completely replacing your palm! You might love it. And as previously noted, anything up to 100% lard can make an excellent bar. Lard seems to be one of those oils that has a 1-100% range (or 5-100% )


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## ResolvableOwl (Jan 18, 2022)

Hi @FragranceGuy ! Glad to see you around here again!


FragranceGuy said:


> (or 5-100% )


(or 5-95%  – you wanna leave some space to not be guilty of the “Ultimate Soap Sin”)


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## Marley (Jan 18, 2022)

Love my lard in soap.  We only had lard growing up on a farm so that’s what we used. Then, with the introduction of the internet, Palm became more popular and accessible. I bought some, used it,  and went right back to Lard.  Haven’t used Palm in at least 20 years.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jan 18, 2022)

My late lard adventures were an opportunity to develop a theory towards the proverbial reputation of lard as The Soaper's Delightful Blessing™, when it comes to workability, swirl times, and general well-behavedness.

In my experience, lard is not particularly _slow-moving_ and not even exceptionally well-behaved (amongst the hard oils) when it comes to false trace.

BUT what really makes a difference is its manners when it comes to the texture of trace (true just as false trace): It does not “freeze” into hard lumps of fat, but the solids (be it the soap droplets about to form with lye, and/or the lard crystals, in the cold) can move past each other rather freely, even when there is a lot of them. Lard is an excellent “lubricant” for its own solids, noticeably better than any other hard oil I know. This is where lard really shines at! Even if it is tracing, the trace is very well-behaved, easy to control, and well to beat up back to a liquid-ish state.

And it doesn't even stop with saponification: lard-based soap dough is also really well-behaved, easy to knead up, pliable, yet non-sticky.

Too bad lard (just as any other ingredient) has its downsides, that keeps it from being the ultimate soapy no-brainer.


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## Ugeauxgirl (Jan 18, 2022)

I made a really nice peppermint bar in late September.  It was 73% lard, 22% coconut and 5% castor.  It was wonderful by Christmas.


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