# Is this Greed or Business?



## Saponificarian (Feb 24, 2021)

There is this fast buy fragrance group I am a member on Facebook. She brings in Designer dupe FOs and discontinued FOs from other suppliers which I think is great but more and more I am starting to feel uneasy about the direction her group and business is going.

What is happening in her group is people are buying fragrances from Brambleberry, Wooden Wick to send to her to duplicate and then she would do group buys on these fragrances.

I have my issues with Brambleberry but seriously I just feel it is wrong for BB and WW to commit several thousand of dollars in Research and Development to come up with their own fragrances and then just have them sent to AFI for duping. Even fragrances that are new collections. These are women owned businesses that grew from scratch, some of them probably took out loans to get to where they are and then this person is trying to take a short cut to success.

Is this ethical or it’s just business?


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## cerelife (Feb 24, 2021)

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with this practice. 
It's one thing to dupe a fragrance that has been discontinued / from a company no longer in business - but to make a business of duping fragrances that are currently available from the original vendors seems unethical indeed.


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## rdc1978 (Feb 24, 2021)

How is she able to duplicate the fragrance?  I'm mostly curious.  You'd have to get everything just right.  I don't know if I can be too judgy since I like being duplicates of fragrances from Lush or Thierry Mugler.  However, I assume the company that makes these duplicates has to put a ton of time into developing the fragrance oil duplicates because its probably a very complicated and well protected secret, right?


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## Saponificarian (Feb 24, 2021)

rdc1978 said:


> How is she able to duplicate the fragrance?  I'm mostly curious.  You'd have to get everything just right.  I don't know if I can be too judgy since I like being duplicates of fragrances from Lush or Thierry Mugler.  However, I assume the company that makes these duplicates has to put a ton of time into developing the fragrance oil duplicates because its probably a very complicated and well protected secret, right?



So she sends 1-2oz of fragrance oils to AFI and  their chemist do a gas chromatography to break down and analyze the components of the FO and in what percentages they might be present in the FO sample and then they use that percentage to formulate a similar one. I have no qualms buying Lush or BBW dupes. They don’t sell FOs for soaps and B&B. Plus they are massive enough to not care or come after you with their lawyers.


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## GemstonePony (Feb 24, 2021)

Aren't there copyright laws that cover this sort of thing? And by "cover" I mean "forbid"? 
Since the companies that sell B&B products with their own fragrances incorporated don't offer those fragrances for sale themselves, I don't have a problem with those fragrances being duplicated since the products being sold have similar elements (fragrance) but different uses. 
However, if someone was selling entirely duplicate B&B products, then I would again question the legality of it under copyright laws.


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## rdc1978 (Feb 24, 2021)

Saponificarian said:


> So she sends 1-2oz of fragrance oils to AFI and  their chemist do a gas chromatography to break down and analyze the components of the FO and in what percentages they might be present in the FO sample and then they use that percentage to formulate a similar one. I have no qualms buying Lush or BBW dupes. They don’t sell FOs for soaps and B&B. Plus they are massive enough to not care or come after you with their lawyers.



Oh my that is interesting!  That makes it even more of an ethical question.  If someone was putting in the elbow grease to make the F/O dupe then it might not be so egregious.  But yeah, I could see the ethical dilemma if what they are doing is more like just putting it in a machine. 

On the one hand, it probably serves a market.  There was someone new to the group a few weeks ago who was just struggling with the cost of F/O and being able to buy super cheap is probably really helpful.  And her purchase from a group like that wouldn't cannabalize sales from BB, because the price points are different.  

On the other hand, part of the reason the price is higher at BB is because they have to put in the time to develop their F/O.  I assume you couldn't just use the exact same ingredients as whats in the perfume (that could be wrong).



GemstonePony said:


> Aren't there copyright laws that cover this sort of thing? And by "cover" I mean "forbid"?
> Since the companies that sell B&B products with their own fragrances incorporated don't offer those fragrances for sale themselves, I don't have a problem with those fragrances being duplicated since the products being sold have similar elements (fragrance) but different uses.
> However, if someone was selling entirely duplicate B&B products, then I would again question the legality of it under copyright laws.



Intellectual property was forever ago, but I do remember that there was some ruling that utilitarian things, like recipes could not get trademark protection.  They could get copyright protection, but that's just barring printed material.  Where someone is just reverse engineering something like this it may not apply.  I think its why the formula for coke is so closely guarded.


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## violets2217 (Feb 24, 2021)

Saponificarian said:


> I have no qualms buying Lush or BBW dupes.


Thank goodness! Some of favorite FO's are Dupes! I was starting to feel guilty! 
But I hear what your saying! Bramble Berry develops these FO for soaps and stuff specifically and her actions are more on the side of stealing. But if they don't have patents for all their in house created FO... is it illegal? Good question! I remember reading about lushes bubble bars and their patent for it and how you are not legally able to sell a bubbler bar using the same ingredients and such. Quite the squeaky situation!


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## GemstonePony (Feb 25, 2021)

I feel like fragrances are basically art, since they have no practical purpose and their value is assessed entirely by individual preference, so... I get that it might not be illegal, but I'd rather pay more money to support the business that develops the things I like so they can keep doing that. Whereas supporting someone who's just duplicating their work, the money doesn't go towards further development. I'd understand duplicating discontinued items, because then they're just filling a hole in the market, but competing with the developers isn't a good long-term business strategy.


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## rdc1978 (Feb 25, 2021)

violets2217 said:


> Thank goodness! Some of favorite FO's are Dupes! I was starting to feel guilty!
> But I hear what your saying! Bramble Berry develops these FO for soaps and stuff specifically and her actions are more on the side of stealing. But if they don't have patents for all their in house created FO... is it illegal? Good question! I remember reading about lushes bubble bars and their patent for it and how you are not legally able to sell a bubbler bar using the same ingredients and such. Quite the squeaky situation!


IIRC (I'm remembering more now that my poor addled brain is thinking about it), you can only get a patent for an invention so that may be how Lush was able to get a patent on their bar.  I think that ostensibly, if a f/o recipe were to fall into any class it would be a patent because its an invention, but, I'm not sure if it would qualify as "new and nonobvious"  

Because I am a dweeb, I looked this up.  Its kind of an interesting read.   I had thought trade secrets too, but apparently, that doesn't bar someone from reverse engineering the product. 









						Can Recipes Be Patented?
					

You've heard it before: "We make the best!" Be it barbecue sauce or brownies, it seems like every




					www.uspto.gov


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Feb 25, 2021)

Heres my two scents worth' It's only my opinion not based on real Fact. Someone can come close to replicating a  "Brand Name" Perfume or FO but it's usually not as good as ( The Real Brand Name).  As far as is it ethical? probably not' It's Business. Is it Legal? dunno.


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## TheGecko (Feb 25, 2021)

Fragrance Oils, Perfumes, Colognes, etc cannot be copyrighted...they are too intangible, too volatile***.  On the other hand the name, packaging, container (specifically designed and manufactured) can be trademarked/copyrighted.

*** - Not every scent smells the same on everyone


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## Vicki C (Feb 25, 2021)

rdc1978 said:


> IIRC (I'm remembering more now that my poor addled brain is thinking about it), you can only get a patent for an invention so that may be how Lush was able to get a patent on their bar.  I think that ostensibly, if a f/o recipe were to fall into any class it would be a patent because its an invention, but, I'm not sure if it would qualify as "new and nonobvious"
> 
> Because I am a dweeb, I looked this up.  Its kind of an interesting read.   I had thought trade secrets too, but apparently, that doesn't bar someone from reverse engineering the product.
> 
> ...


Appreciate your input and curiosity! Signed, also a dweeb


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## TheGecko (Feb 25, 2021)

rdc1978 said:


> I had thought trade secrets too, but apparently, that doesn't bar someone from reverse engineering the product.



Yes and no...it depends on whether there is a patent for it. As an example...I make a particular item for which I have a patent for. You buy the item, study it, take it apart and are able to recreate it. You can't do anything with it, because I hold a patent on the item.

On the other hand, I have a sweater that I really like, but it's getting old. I have carefully studied it, counted stitches and row and have written a pattern for it. I can legally sell the pattern because 1) only the written pattern is copyrighted, not the design. 2) I didn't use the original pattern to make my pattern.

"Trade Secrets" are a wholly different deal and can be really complex.  Trade secrets are protected so long as they remain secret and every step is taken to make sure they remain secret...like the Colonel's "11 herbs and spices" or Coca-Cola's formula or a particular manufacturing process to make something.  It is legal to reverse engineer something that is a 'trade secret' so long as the item is fairly obtained.  And of course it is possible that two different people can independently can come up with the same process...which is why people with obtain a patent.


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## lsg (Feb 25, 2021)

There are many companies who offer Dupe fragrances.  If we don't approve, then that certainly limits the suppliers we buy from.


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## justjacqui (Feb 25, 2021)

Fragrances are protected by trade secret rather than patents and I think most fragrance houses prefer this. If you patent something then you basically give everybody the knowledge to copy it.

Fragrances can be made up of dozens or even hundreds of components. Make sure that you test any duplicated fragrances because even minor differences in the fragrance composition can cause big differences to the product you are making.


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## rdc1978 (Feb 25, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Yes and no...it depends on whether there is a patent for it. As an example...I make a particular item for which I have a patent for. You buy the item, study it, take it apart and are able to recreate it. You can't do anything with it, because I hold a patent on the item.
> 
> On the other hand, I have a sweater that I really like, but it's getting old. I have carefully studied it, counted stitches and row and have written a pattern for it. I can legally sell the pattern because 1) only the written pattern is copyrighted, not the design. 2) I didn't use the original pattern to make my pattern.
> 
> "Trade Secrets" are a wholly different deal and can be really complex.  Trade secrets are protected so long as they remain secret and every step is taken to make sure they remain secret...like the Colonel's "11 herbs and spices" or Coca-Cola's formula or a particular manufacturing process to make something.  It is legal to reverse engineer something that is a 'trade secret' so long as the item is fairly obtained.  And of course it is possible that two different people can independently can come up with the same process...which is why people with obtain a patent.



Yes, with a patent you couldn't reverse engineer, but under trade secrets you could. 

But it would be hard to get the patent because the fragrance oil may not be considered "new and non-obvious"



lsg said:


> There are many companies who offer Dupe fragrances.  If we don't approve, then that certainly limits the suppliers we buy from.



I like drawing the line (morally and ethically at least) to not buying a dupe of an actual fragrance oil.  

I can see the logic, Theirry Mugler and Clinique aren't going to come out with a line of soaping fragrance oils for "Angel" or "Happy" so buying a duplicate f/o of Angel or Happy isn't going to cannibalize their business.  They won't lose profits they would have otherwise had if I had purchased a f/o from them because they don't offer it.  I guess a person could argue that I might have purchased the perfume, but, I think thats speculative, and in my case.......wrong.   However, if I buy a dupe of a BB f/o, that sale is taking away from their profits.  In some cases it may not because the soaper finds the f/o so expensive that they at the BB price point, they just aren't going to buy any f/o....but that seems like it would be a fairly small group.  

But gosh, what an interesting conversation!  I haven't thought about this stuff in like FOREVER, and its really interesting to think about the legal questions and really the moral and ethical questions involved.


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## dibbles (Feb 25, 2021)

Another thought, then. What about soap suppliers who sell dupes of fragrances that bath and body companies have developed. Love Spell (Victoria's Secret), Black Raspberry Vanilla (retired, but still available on the Bath & Body Works website), and Lush Dupes are available from most vendors (Bramble Berry included). I know these companies don't sell FOs, but they do sell the products that we use the FOs to make. 

As to the original question - I don't have an answer.


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## Saponificarian (Feb 25, 2021)

dibbles said:


> Another thought, then. What about soap suppliers who sell dupes of fragrances that bath and body companies have developed. Love Spell (Victoria's Secret), Black Raspberry Vanilla (retired, but still available on the Bath & Body Works website), and Lush Dupes are available from most vendors (Bramble Berry included). I know these companies don't sell FOs, but they do sell the products that we use the FOs to make.
> 
> As to the original question - I don't have an answer.



For me, BBW, Lush don’t make FOs to sell. The reason most people started to make their own products is while they love the fragrances of these products from BBW and Lush, they react to some of the ingredients in them. Therefore, buying dupes of these FOs to make products with ingredients that agree with your skin is fun! It’s not taking business away from BBW because you won’t buy their products anyway if you react to it.

Now, duping fragrances from small businesses that sell these FOs, they spent money on R&D to develop these FOs, is not ethical in my books. Especially when you encourage people to go buy from these businesses so you can dupe them and sell for less. This is cannibalism.

My opinion anyways.


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## dibbles (Feb 25, 2021)

@Saponificarian Personally I agree with you. It is wrong to have others buy the FOs from a company for the purpose of duping them. 

I didn't start making soap, etc. because commercial products caused a reaction to my skin, though, and I do think there are plenty of makers who found an enjoyable hobby/small business to pursue for reasons other than that as well. So, would it be wrong for me to make a lotion with a BBW FO dupe, when I can use the lotion they sell without a problem? Just wondering here - I don't sell, so I'm not profiting from it, and I've just not thought about it before in terms of using a BBW or Lush dupe.


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## Arimara (Feb 25, 2021)

dibbles said:


> @Saponificarian Personally I agree with you. It is wrong to have others buy the FOs from a company for the purpose of duping them.
> 
> I didn't start making soap, etc. because commercial products caused a reaction to my skin, though, and I do think there are plenty of makers who found an enjoyable hobby/small business to pursue for reasons other than that as well. So, would it be wrong for me to make a lotion with a BBW FO dupe, when I can use the lotion they sell without a problem? Just wondering here - I don't sell, so I'm not profiting from it, and I've just not thought about it before in terms of using a BBW or Lush dupe.


I don't know about the lotion thing. I see it as fair game. It's not like BBW is 100% ethical or they would not have had the backlash they did when they came out with a Holo Taco inspired product and NOT consult the owner about it(I forgot her name).


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## dibbles (Feb 25, 2021)

Arimara said:


> I don't know about the lotion thing. I see it as fair game. It's not like BBW is 100% ethical or they would not have had the backlash they did when they came out with a Holo Taco inspired product and NOT consult the owner about it(I forgot her name).


I'm just musing. I don't really know anything about this.


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## GemstonePony (Feb 25, 2021)

dibbles said:


> @Saponificarian Personally I agree with you. It is wrong to have others buy the FOs from a company for the purpose of duping them.
> 
> I didn't start making soap, etc. because commercial products caused a reaction to my skin, though, and I do think there are plenty of makers who found an enjoyable hobby/small business to pursue for reasons other than that as well. So, would it be wrong for me to make a lotion with a BBW FO dupe, when I can use the lotion they sell without a problem? Just wondering here - I don't sell, so I'm not profiting from it, and I've just not thought about it before in terms of using a BBW or Lush dupe.


Unless you're also duplicating their lotion, I still don't think it's the same thing. My skin can tolerate BBW lotion as long as I don't use it too frequently. So, I usually end up with Aveeno, which doesn't have many fun fragrances, but works better. It could be argued that if I want fun fragrances, my skin just has to suffer a little, or I can't enjoy them for extended periods of time.
Or, I can buy a duplicate fragrance, put it in something that works for my skin, and have my cake and eat it, too. Which, it could be argued, competes with both companies for different reasons.
ETA: I darken the doors of B&B stores so infrequently that I have no memory of their fragrances/perfumes. I don't tend to buy dupes because non-duplicate fragrances are usually described better.


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## TheGecko (Feb 25, 2021)

rdc1978 said:


> Yes, with a patent you couldn't reverse engineer, but under trade secrets you could.



It is not illegal to reverse engineer, doesn’t matter whether there is a patent or not. You just can’t use the item if there is a patent on it.


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## paradisi (Feb 25, 2021)

It's immoral and really tacky.  Bb's prices being higher than someone likes doesn't make it right, either. 

Ripping off Anne Marie's work..her fragrance team's work... stinks.


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## Arimara (Feb 26, 2021)

@GemstonePony the day they retires Japanese Cherry Blossom will be the day I search for something to lend the creamy notes I get with its dupe. I love that scent to pieces. I'm also glad NG has a dupe of Cotton Blossom from back when I was in high school or college. That was my daily scent.


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## cerelife (Feb 26, 2021)

dibbles said:


> So, would it be wrong for me to make a lotion with a BBW FO dupe, when I can use the lotion they sell without a problem? Just wondering here - I don't sell, so I'm not profiting from it, and I've just not thought about it before in terms of using a BBW or Lush dupe.
> [/QUOTE]
> I don't have any qualms about using FO dupes of BBW or Lush scents.
> In the case of BBW I don't like their products but I do like some of the scents. Like most of us, I started making things for myself and I wanted a quality product so price wasn't my first consideration. BBW isn't going to make the same stuff that we do because it just wouldn't be cost-effective for them to do so.
> ...



I don't know why I can't get my response out of dibbles quote!

I don't have any qualms about using FO dupes of BBW or Lush scents.
In the case of BBW I don't like their products but I do like some of the scents. Like most of us, I started making things for myself and I wanted a quality product so price wasn't my first consideration. BBW isn't going to make the same stuff that we do because it just wouldn't be cost-effective for them to do so.
Per Lush: I hate their soap but love some of the scents. I like some of their other products and I do buy those from them.
I would have more of a moral issue purchasing and using dupes of these fragrances if they made top-notch quality products. But this is just my opinion, everyone may not agree.
What bothers me specifically about the scenario Saponificarian presented was that this woman is having people send her FOs from companies who are actively selling these same scents and duplicating them. If someone likes the scent they bought from a vendor like BB, it seems incredibly unfair to NOT continue to purchase the FO from that vendor and instead send it to be duped by someone else and then buy it from them at a lower price point.


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## rdc1978 (Feb 26, 2021)

dibbles said:


> @Saponificarian Personally I agree with you. It is wrong to have others buy the FOs from a company for the purpose of duping them.
> 
> I didn't start making soap, etc. because commercial products caused a reaction to my skin, though, and I do think there are plenty of makers who found an enjoyable hobby/small business to pursue for reasons other than that as well. So, would it be wrong for me to make a lotion with a BBW FO dupe, when I can use the lotion they sell without a problem? Just wondering here - I don't sell, so I'm not profiting from it, and I've just not thought about it before in terms of using a BBW or Lush dupe.



I think this is an interesting aspect, but I'd say that, for me, I'd make a totally different product than what BBW is selling.  I'm making (mostly) cold process bar soaps with (my attempts) at design work.  Most perfumes, IMO, carry a lotion or a bath gel for a lower cost entry product, or as part of a gift set.  

Thats been my experience at least, more often than not, its been part of a gift set.  BBW sells bath gels and lotions.  While I won't have a skin reaction using those products, I prefer the lotion bars I make with ingredients that I know work better on my skin. The same with my soaps, its not that I couldn't use an Angel bath gelee, but for one, I can almost guarantee you, its cloying.  I like Angel, but a little goes a long way.  And as well, while I won't have a skin reaction, it'll probably dry out my skin, and then I'd be forced to use Angel lotion, and I'd just be stinking like Angel all the live long day.  LOL.  But with my soap, my skin doesn't really get dried out.  

I'm not a huge fan of BBW products and thats just me, however, I could see where the line might maybe be blurred if someone was looking to make the _exact same product _for less.  Like if someone was making liquid soap or a body gel with a BBW dupe and was undercutting the price without some added benefit, I could see that being a little more grey.


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## dibbles (Feb 26, 2021)

Just to clarify - I think (as I've said before) that what the person in the original post is doing is wrong. Period. I think my comments have been misunderstood. I do understand the differences, and making a different product using a dupe of a fragrance isn't the same thing as what this person is doing.  

I like Bramble Berry and use many of their FOs.

Most of the fragrances from BBW don't appeal to me - it was just an example of duping a fragrance that other companies have invested R&D dollars in and selling it. Which I think just about every FO vendor does. I do like the Lush dupes and use them frequently, which should say that don't have a problem with buying and using FO dupes.

I also think that there are fragrance vendors/manufacturers who send samples of FOs they have duped or created to the suppliers we use. Or the suppliers we use order these FOs from these manufacturers. They aren't necessarily all creating their own fragrances in house with a staff trained to do this.

The quality of the product wasn't the point. L'Occitane, for example, makes nice products and their fragrances are also duped. I understand the differences and agree with the points that have been made.


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## rdc1978 (Feb 26, 2021)

dibbles said:


> Just to clarify - I think (as I've said before) that what the person in the original post is doing is wrong. Period. I think my comments have been misunderstood. I do understand the differences, and making a different product using a dupe of a fragrance isn't the same thing as what this person is doing.
> 
> I like Bramble Berry and use many of their FOs.
> 
> ...



I think I understand.  I guess for me would be whether I'm unfairly taking money out of someones pocket.  I think thats why I think more about the type of product being sold.  Like if I made a bath gelee out of a BBW F/O dupe and sold it at a price that undercut BBW bath gelee, that would feel a little weird.  

LOL, until this discussion I never even thought about how f/o came about.  Your explanation on the f/o creation is pretty eye opening.  To me, developing a f/o seems like such an arduous process, but there are so many available.


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## cerelife (Feb 26, 2021)

Just another thought:
My business is very small. But before I decided to create a business I worked hard and had a lot of trial and error in the process of creating what I felt were high quality, top-notch products that I would want to use myself. Then I put a lot of time and thought into my branding and what I wanted people to think of when they saw or heard my company name. After that came my packaging, website, and displays to carry out my ideas and I created a business that makes me happy and proud.
A few years ago, a professor from one of the local colleges kept visiting my tent at a weekly market I used to attend. He came every week and bought a few items each time. After a few months he told me he taught business marketing classes and would like to take pictures of my tent, signage, and products in order to show his students what good branding looks like. I was over the moon and let him take all the pics he wanted! I mean, how flattering that I was doing something so right that it caught the notice of someone who actually teaches people HOW to do this, right??
So this guy uses all those pictures to replicate my products for his own business. Same product line, same packaging, even the same freaking font and words/spacing!!! The only thing he changed was his business name and logo and EVEN those were only slightly altered from my own!!
The only way I found out about this was because several of my regular customers bought some of his products from the local spas he was peddling them to because they thought it was my stuff and started calling me to say they weren't happy with my changes. When I told them I didn't sell at those locations they looked a little closer and saw that these weren't my products. I was furious, but what can you do? Pretty much nothing. What he did wasn't illegal, but it was certainly unethical. Thankfully Karma bit him on his behind because a few of my customers took issue with his tactics and complained to the stores where he was selling his products. None of them carry his products anymore,
I think one of the things that bothered me the most was that he bragged on his website that his extensive background in business and marketing led him to create a unique luxury line of soap and skin-care products that are akin to Tiffany jewelry - "It just makes you feel special. Everything from my luxury products to my signature packaging and gift bags are pure indulgence."
Yeah, that came directly from ME!! He wanted to know (for his students) what led me to create my packaging and labels, and why I spent the money and time to purchase and hand stamp my bags with my business name and logo. I told him: "It's like Tiffany, ya know? It's part of the whole experience and feeling of luxury. You never throw away a Tiffany bag, it's too cool. I want my customers to feel that way about my company." What a snake.
Sorry for the long rambling post, but this was the first thing I thought of when I read the original post. It doesn't feel good when someone else takes credit for your hard work and ideas.


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## rdc1978 (Feb 26, 2021)

cerelife said:


> Just another thought:
> My business is very small. But before I decided to create a business I worked hard and had a lot of trial and error in the process of creating what I felt were high quality, top-notch products that I would want to use myself. Then I put a lot of time and thought into my branding and what I wanted people to think of when they saw or heard my company name. After that came my packaging, website, and displays to carry out my ideas and I created a business that makes me happy and proud.
> A few years ago, a professor from one of the local colleges kept visiting my tent at a weekly market I used to attend. He came every week and bought a few items each time. After a few months he told me he taught business marketing classes and would like to take pictures of my tent, signage, and products in order to show his students what good branding looks like. I was over the moon and let him take all the pics he wanted! I mean, how flattering that I was doing something so right that it caught the notice of someone who actually teaches people HOW to do this, right??
> So this guy uses all those pictures to replicate my products for his own business. Same product line, same packaging, even the same freaking font and words/spacing!!! The only thing he changed was his business name and logo and EVEN those were only slightly altered from my own!!
> ...



What an awful thing to do!

Have you sought TM protection where it could apply?  Thats just awful. What a jerk!  Him, not you! LOL.


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## dibbles (Feb 26, 2021)

I'm sorry that happened to you @cerelife


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## GemstonePony (Feb 26, 2021)

cerelife said:


> Just another thought:
> My business is very small. But before I decided to create a business I worked hard and had a lot of trial and error in the process of creating what I felt were high quality, top-notch products that I would want to use myself. Then I put a lot of time and thought into my branding and what I wanted people to think of when they saw or heard my company name. After that came my packaging, website, and displays to carry out my ideas and I created a business that makes me happy and proud.
> A few years ago, a professor from one of the local colleges kept visiting my tent at a weekly market I used to attend. He came every week and bought a few items each time. After a few months he told me he taught business marketing classes and would like to take pictures of my tent, signage, and products in order to show his students what good branding looks like. I was over the moon and let him take all the pics he wanted! I mean, how flattering that I was doing something so right that it caught the notice of someone who actually teaches people HOW to do this, right??
> So this guy uses all those pictures to replicate my products for his own business. Same product line, same packaging, even the same freaking font and words/spacing!!! The only thing he changed was his business name and logo and EVEN those were only slightly altered from my own!!
> ...


That is so horrible! And to think he teaches other people, too!


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## Stephd31 (Feb 26, 2021)

cerelife said:


> Just another thought:
> My business is very small. But before I decided to create a business I worked hard and had a lot of trial and error in the process of creating what I felt were high quality, top-notch products that I would want to use myself. Then I put a lot of time and thought into my branding and what I wanted people to think of when they saw or heard my company name. After that came my packaging, website, and displays to carry out my ideas and I created a business that makes me happy and proud.
> A few years ago, a professor from one of the local colleges kept visiting my tent at a weekly market I used to attend. He came every week and bought a few items each time. After a few months he told me he taught business marketing classes and would like to take pictures of my tent, signage, and products in order to show his students what good branding looks like. I was over the moon and let him take all the pics he wanted! I mean, how flattering that I was doing something so right that it caught the notice of someone who actually teaches people HOW to do this, right??
> So this guy uses all those pictures to replicate my products for his own business. Same product line, same packaging, even the same freaking font and words/spacing!!! The only thing he changed was his business name and logo and EVEN those were only slightly altered from my own!!
> ...


Wow, that is extremely unethical. You should definitely look into trademarking if you haven't already. I don't know much about it personally, but I know the Indie Business Network has a class (possibly free for members) on trademarking. Your story makes me wonder if the guy was even a professor at all.


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## Cheeky Goat (Feb 26, 2021)

I think it’s a little icky to me as AnnMarie is a soap maker, and started as a small biz owner making soap herself. So buying FO to duplicate feels slimy. 

I’m less bothered by the BBW or Lush dupes, as they aren’t selling the oil, and as others have noted, folks react to their products. It’s a good ethics question though.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 26, 2021)

@cerelife   "What a snake."     All I can say is, "It" happens! When it comes to retail sales, the good stuff gets copied and sold by reputable vendors.

Your story reminded me of something that happened to me recently. I got snookered at Costco when I picked up a box of my favorite Vita Coco Coconut Water. It wasn't until I got home that I realized it was a KIRKLAND brand. Shamefully similar packaging, same ingredients with one iota of difference. GAH 

_Caveat emptor, (Latin: “let the buyer beware”), in the law of commercial transactions, principle that the buyer purchases at his own risk in the absence of an express warranty in the contract._

One could say the professor knew his business law... and took advantage of it. Tsk tsk.


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## Arimara (Feb 26, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> One could say the professor knew his business law... and took advantage of it. Tsk tsk.


It sucks he didn't remember those ethics classes I'm sure he had to take if he was a professor. He messed himself up trying to undermine a longtime vendor of good reputation to make a quick buck. I just hope any newbies thinking they're good enough to sell sees this and gets a good lesson as to why building a good rapport with customers is important.


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## cerelife (Mar 1, 2021)

Thanks, y'all! 
I'm normally one of the most laid-back people ever and it doesn't bother me when I find out someone attempted to copy something that I felt was original to me. I mean we are ALL constantly inspired by each other and that's a good thing, and usually it's flattering that someone liked an idea enough to copy it, right? But this guy went WAYYY too far.
And he definitely IS a professor!! When all this was going on I looked him up on the college website and there he was -the jerk. 
One of my customers (who worked in admin at the same college - our market was only a block away) reported him for unethical behavior. I never found out if anything came of this, but I do know that he took down his website a few weeks later.


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## Arimara (Mar 1, 2021)

cerelife said:


> Thanks, y'all!
> I'm normally one of the most laid-back people ever and it doesn't bother me when I find out someone attempted to copy something that I felt was original to me. I mean we are ALL constantly inspired by each other and that's a good thing, and usually it's flattering that someone liked an idea enough to copy it, right? But this guy went WAYYY too far.
> And he definitely IS a professor!! When all this was going on I looked him up on the college website and there he was -the jerk.
> One of my customers (who worked in admin at the same college - our market was only a block away) reported him for unethical behavior. I never found out if anything came of this, but I do know that he took down his website a few weeks later.


I would think he lost credibility at the least.  It's deserved and I hope he's not a family man on top of that.


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## Vicki C (Mar 1, 2021)

cerelife said:


> Just another thought:
> My business is very small. But before I decided to create a business I worked hard and had a lot of trial and error in the process of creating what I felt were high quality, top-notch products that I would want to use myself. Then I put a lot of time and thought into my branding and what I wanted people to think of when they saw or heard my company name. After that came my packaging, website, and displays to carry out my ideas and I created a business that makes me happy and proud.
> A few years ago, a professor from one of the local colleges kept visiting my tent at a weekly market I used to attend. He came every week and bought a few items each time. After a few months he told me he taught business marketing classes and would like to take pictures of my tent, signage, and products in order to show his students what good branding looks like. I was over the moon and let him take all the pics he wanted! I mean, how flattering that I was doing something so right that it caught the notice of someone who actually teaches people HOW to do this, right??
> So this guy uses all those pictures to replicate my products for his own business. Same product line, same packaging, even the same freaking font and words/spacing!!! The only thing he changed was his business name and logo and EVEN those were only slightly altered from my own!!
> ...


Was he really a professor? That just sound like a scammy line to let him take photos.


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## Cheeky Goat (Mar 1, 2021)

That’s a really good point *Vicki, *I would have considered that first. Even worse that it sounds like he really was!


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 1, 2021)

cerelife said:


> I mean we are ALL constantly inspired by each other and that's a good thing, and usually it's flattering that someone liked an idea enough to copy it, right?


True. I would take comfort in that. We cannot know his motives. It's best to wish him well and get on with your life. As @KiwiMoose notes in her sig line, _"Be kind because everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."_


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## paradisi (Mar 1, 2021)

Um, no, it's more like he's a predator, he used his position to gain access and then to exploit the work she'd done. Flattery would be emulating an idea, not wholesale copying her.

Not unlike the FB group copying new popular scents and profiting off someone else's work. Both are vulture business models.

Too, consider that the more places like BB are ripped off, the higher they have to price things to get their initial investment back. The vultures are making money not just at Anne Marie's expense, but at the expense of everyone else who shops at BB.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 1, 2021)

@paradisi Your point is well-taken. However, if we are to create a kinder, gentler nation, å la Alex Trebek, let it begin with me. It's sad that we condemn a person to criminal behavior when he isn't here to defend himself. For all we know, his motive may have been to provide for his family during these trying times. I've never met a "rich" college professor, know what I mean?


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## MaryinOK (Mar 2, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I got snookered at Costco when I picked up a box of my favorite Vita Coco Coconut Water. It wasn't until I got home that I realized it was a KIRKLAND brand. Shamefully similar packaging, same ingredients with one iota of difference.



Well, many manufacturers make identical (or almost identical) products for several name brands and Box stores. Many years ago my son worked at a company that made several lines of cosmetics. Some very well-known and pricey, some less known and more moderately priced. The only difference was the fanciness of the container and the label. However, this is not an underhand practice - lots of companies do this.


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## rdc1978 (Mar 2, 2021)

This reminds me of those malt o meal bagged cereals.  I know I'm a sucker but I need original frosted mini wheats even if they are all made in the same place!

Having to pay more in light of FO dupes is a good point.  It stinks because I know that, for some, the cost of f/o is prohibitive.  And that really stinks too because I think f/o are such fun and everyone should enjoy them. But at the same time, BB isn't giving it away!  I wonder how much any of this affects their bottom line?


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## Johnez (Apr 15, 2021)

I found this topic while searching for how to make a fragrance, however this does present a moral dilemma I never thought of. Going the easy route to send something off to a lab to figure out how to copy it sounds pretty scummy but I'm pretty sure this is common practice in the shaving soap world. There's some well respected brands that use terms like "inspired by" and then your favorite cologne. Creed aventus, YSL la Nuit, even Drakkar noir lol. Speaking of Creed aventus, there's numerous copies of that fragrance itself-all sold aboveboard, many current fragrances on the market. Heck I've even seen the "dupe" of original "Old Spice" here. The idea of copying somebody else's work stinks, but can a dupe really copy something perfectly? BB and WW are selling their products at a premium for more than their scent, but also based on reputation and being well run organizations. These people going the dupe route do not receive any of the benefits other than the scent itself and take the risk of getting bad product with no recourse. I have a feeling the companies aren't losing tons of money over this being they offer way more and have legion of fans. 

I don't really have a horse in this race, but it seems that facebook group is doing something that is already an industry practice. I can't decide whether it's right or wrong, but perhaps that is because it seems so commonplace already that it never struck me as something to question.


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## Saponificarian (Apr 15, 2021)

@Johnez I have no problem with suppliers that dupe Adventus and other Creed line, to my way of thinking they don’t make fragrance oils that you can use to make candles or soap etc. 

What I have a problem with is duping Fragrance oils that is still strictly fragrance oils from small businesses who invested a ton of money into research to develop these fragrance oils. Shen then turn around to sell these knockoffs for less than the original supplier. This is cannibalism. Some of these fragrances she is wanting to dupe are new fragrance oils from these suppliers.


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## Johnez (Apr 15, 2021)

Saponificarian said:


> @Johnez I have no problem with suppliers that dupe Adventus and other Creed line, to my way of thinking they don’t make fragrance oils that you can use to make candles or soap etc.
> 
> What I have a problem with is duping Fragrance oils that is still strictly fragrance oils from small businesses who invested a ton of money into research to develop these fragrance oils. Shen then turn around to sell these knockoffs for less than the original supplier. This is cannibalism. Some of these fragrances she is wanting to dupe are new fragrance oils from these suppliers.



I feel you are right, that this is morally wrong and they would agree if they stopped to exam their actions. I wonder if a tersely worded cease and desist letter would get their attention. I have the feeling they are cutting corners elsewhere like by not filing the proper paperwork to operate a business, filing and paying their taxes, etc. This will eventually catch up to them, however in the meantime others might get the same idea. I hope that's not the case already. :-/


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## paradisi (Apr 16, 2021)

MaryinOK said:


> Well, many manufacturers make identical (or almost identical) products for several name brands and Box stores. Many years ago my son worked at a company that made several lines of cosmetics. Some very well-known and pricey, some less known and more moderately priced. The only difference was the fanciness of the container and the label. However, this is not an underhand practice - lots of companies do this.


What you're describing is known as Private Label manufacturing and is done as a business deal between the two companies; Business A repacks something it makes, sells it to Business B who resells it. 

Not only legal, but done with full consent and agreement of both parties. Often there are strict licensing agreements. 

Very different from copying someone else's work without their permission.


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## fizzin_A (May 25, 2021)

I think when you have admiration and respect for a smaller company that has put a lot of effort into developing unique fragrances and maybe have interacted with them in some capacity, getting duped hits a lot harder. Right or wrong is not my place to say, but this happens all the time in the fragrance industry sadly.



Johnez said:


> There's some well respected brands that use terms like "inspired by" and then your favorite cologne. Creed aventus, YSL la Nuit, even Drakkar noir lol. Speaking of Creed aventus, there's numerous copies of that fragrance itself-all sold aboveboard, many current fragrances on the market. Heck I've even seen the "dupe" of original "Old Spice" here.



This is a really good example; Aventus was a very unique fragrance when it was released in 2010. There was nothing like it on the market at the time and it became very popular even at $400+ for 120ml. Now there are several dupes on the market at a fraction of the cost; Armaf Club De Nuit Intense for Men, Afnan Silver Supremacy, L'Aventure by Al Haramain, Zara Vibrant Leather, Mont Blanc Explorer, Pineapple Vintage just to name a few. Heck DUA has a whole line of Aventus clones trying to replicate batch variations.

It's even rumored that Mont Blanc released Explorer as an Aventus knock off in retaliation for Creed ripping off MB Individual with their release of Original Santal.

DUA, Armaf, and Maison Margiela 'Replica'  are even considered clone houses. All they do is duplicate already established fragrances and they do it with no shame at all.

Even designers rip off other designers all the time. For example Dior Sauvage, it wasn't long before Prada Luna Rosa Carbon came out as a very similar fragrance. Same thing with Versace Dylan Blue ripping off Bleu De Chanel. Even BBW has released product lines inspired by popular fragrances, example Midnight smells like Sauvage and Forest smells like Aventus. 

As someone pointed out in this thread already, you can't really patent a smell. The exception being if you were to create a brand new synthetic molecule or fragrance ingredient, then it can be registered as a Trademark; Akigalawood for example. 

Anyway, I'm not trying to justify the behavior in any way, just pointing out that the fragrance industry is a brutal business and dupes have become common place.


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## Basil (May 25, 2021)

cerelife said:


> Just another thought:
> My business is very small. But before I decided to create a business I worked hard and had a lot of trial and error in the process of creating what I felt were high quality, top-notch products that I would want to use myself. Then I put a lot of time and thought into my branding and what I wanted people to think of when they saw or heard my company name. After that came my packaging, website, and displays to carry out my ideas and I created a business that makes me happy and proud.
> A few years ago, a professor from one of the local colleges kept visiting my tent at a weekly market I used to attend. He came every week and bought a few items each time. After a few months he told me he taught business marketing classes and would like to take pictures of my tent, signage, and products in order to show his students what good branding looks like. I was over the moon and let him take all the pics he wanted! I mean, how flattering that I was doing something so right that it caught the notice of someone who actually teaches people HOW to do this, right??
> So this guy uses all those pictures to replicate my products for his own business. Same product line, same packaging, even the same freaking font and words/spacing!!! The only thing he changed was his business name and logo and EVEN those were only slightly altered from my own!!
> ...


I’m late in reading this, but your post reminds me of an episode on Schitt’s Creek. A story very similar . So wrong. I’m sorry that happened to you.


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## Basil (May 25, 2021)

cerelife said:


> Thanks, y'all!
> I'm normally one of the most laid-back people ever and it doesn't bother me when I find out someone attempted to copy something that I felt was original to me. I mean we are ALL constantly inspired by each other and that's a good thing, and usually it's flattering that someone liked an idea enough to copy it, right? But this guy went WAYYY too far.
> And he definitely IS a professor!! When all this was going on I looked him up on the college website and there he was -the jerk.
> One of my customers (who worked in admin at the same college - our market was only a block away) reported him for unethical behavior. I never found out if anything came of this, but I do know that he took down his website a few weeks later.


I feel like he went way too far as well. The display , packaging and wording took it to the next level. I’m not sure how he could feel good about that. When I first started making soap I was so anxious trying not to do anything the same as someone else . I thought I’d offend. I did learn through this forum that it was ok and soapers are happy to share and help but what he did was different . IMHO....


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