# How important are the numbers?



## misskat22 (Mar 30, 2013)

I was playing on SoapCalc trying to come up with a recipe that doesn't have coconut oil (formulating for someone who is allergic to it), and I haven't really played around with the numbers much because I haven't formulated my own recipe yet, but I was wondering, how important are those numbers?

My biggest problem is that the different combos I was trying (which didn't have any reason, just playing to see results) were all giving me a cleansing number of 0. Now, that number seems like it might be important in a soap..or am I wrong? 

I guess I just never really heard anyone talk about them much before so I don't know what exactly they do, I'd also be happy to read links if anyone has them  

Thanks!


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## Genny (Mar 30, 2013)

Cleansing in soap numbers refers to the amount of oils that soap can strip from your skin.
http://www.soapcalc.net/info/SoapQualities.asp

Soap with a 0 cleansing will clean.  Soap with a high cleansing number will be more likely to remove the natural surface oils from your skin.


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## Kansas Farm Girl (Mar 30, 2013)

It seems that most of the plant-based oils have low, if not 0, cleansing numbers while the animal based oils have a bit higher. I do not remember ever seeing any with a higher than coconut. You can make very nice soaps without coconut. I use animal fats and coconut oils in most of mine, but I have made some without either.


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## sistrum (Mar 30, 2013)

You can use palm kernel oil instead of coconut oil.  They are pretty much the same.
As for the "numbers" on soap calc. they don't mean anything!  If you want to learn to learn how to formulate look at the fatty acid profiles of the oils.  Learn what effect those acids have in soap.  I know to some I must sound like a broken record but going by the "numbers" is NOT the way to formulate.


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## misskat22 (Mar 31, 2013)

sistrum, I figured there were other ways to do it, I'm just new so wondered how much I should be considering those numbers. I also figured a soap with a 0 cleansing number would technically clean. To me, the way you explained it Genny, is that a soap with a 0 cleansing number will be rather mild? Whereas a soap with a higher number might be feel more drying because it's taking more of your body's natural oils? Do I understand that correct? 

I'm sure by playing around with it I can come up with something good, as long as the numbers don't really mean a whole lot LOL


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## Mockingbird Ramble (Mar 31, 2013)

As someone who cleans her face with pure oil, a low cleansing is very appealing, something to get the dirtand sweat off, but leave some of the protective layer of oils. 

What oils have low cleansing?


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## misskat22 (Mar 31, 2013)

I was looking at cocoa butter, olive oil, sunflower oil, castor oil, safflower oil, beeswax for hardness. I'm pretty sure all the combos I tried came up with a 0 cleansing number. I have no idea if any of those combined would actually make a decent bar though! The most recent I was looking at was olive oil, cocoa butter and castor oil..I think it sounds like a nice bar, will have to give it a shot and see I guess..and I know that had a cleansing of 0.


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## Genny (Apr 1, 2013)

misskat22 said:


> To me, the way you explained it Genny, is that a soap with a 0 cleansing number will be rather mild? Whereas a soap with a higher number might be feel more drying because it's taking more of your body's natural oils? Do I understand that correct?



Exactly   But then also, soapcalc doesn't take the SF% into consideration with the numbers.  So, if you have a high cleansing number recipe, but have a SF of about 20%, it's most likely not going to be drying.


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## Kansas Farm Girl (Apr 1, 2013)

misskat22 said:


> I was looking at cocoa butter, olive oil, sunflower oil, castor oil, safflower oil, beeswax for hardness. I'm pretty sure all the combos I tried came up with a 0 cleansing number. I have no idea if any of those combined would actually make a decent bar though! The most recent I was looking at was olive oil, cocoa butter and castor oil..I think it sounds like a nice bar, will have to give it a shot and see I guess..and I know that had a cleansing of 0.



but consider Castile soap which is 100% olive oil. It has a 0 for cleansing also, but it is well liked by many people. I have never tried it, but I know people who will use nothing else. Personally I like the lower cleansing numbers. I only want a high one if I am looking for a stain remover for laundry or something. 

don't worry about a low cleansing number unless you are looking for something for the purpose of removing oil. if you are looking for a nice face or bath soap even a 0 cleansing will give you a good cleaning. It would not strip your skin of all the natural oils leaving your skin feeling tight and dried out. Of course soaps with high numbers can be counteracted by changing the SF % you use.


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## judymoody (Apr 1, 2013)

I wouldn't worry about the numbers too much.  I prefer low cleansing as a matter of course as my skin is pretty dry.  However, if you are formulating for a guy, they tend to prefer higher cleansing numbers.

As was mentioned earlier, you could try PKO as a substitute.  Or babassu.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 1, 2013)

judymoody said:


> I wouldn't worry about the numbers too much...



I think "the numbers" have something of value to contribute to soap making, as long as the reasoning behind the numbers is also available. Problem is, I have had no luck finding out that background information -- so far at least!


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## SoapPapaw (Apr 1, 2013)

Speaking of numbers, What is INS? And did I read it should be between 130-165?


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## DeeAnna (Apr 1, 2013)

From what I gather, the original meaning of "INS" is lost in the mists of history, but it was developed as a way to figure out what blends of fats would work well for commercial soap making. For handmade soap makers, the INS value is not quite as meaningful, since we are not as focused on making tons of soap for a mass market, but INS can be a reasonable guideline to check when designing a soap recipe.

If a fat has a high INS number, the fat will saponify  easily and make a hard soap that cleanses well.

Which fats have high  INS values? Coconut is at the top  of the list at an INS of about 258, followed by palm kernel, tallow, cocoa butter, palm oil,  lard, and shea with INS of 115-230. 

Fats with middle INS values of 60-105 are olive, avocado, almond,  castor, corn, canola, beeswax, sunflower, and soybean. 

At the bottom are fats with INS under 60, such as jojoba, evening primrose, rosehip, and flaxseed (linseed).

Soap calculators like soapcalc recommend a combined INS number somewhere between 135 to 170 which is reasonable for a general purpose type of soap. A single fat such as lard (INS of about 140) would fit the bill. But so would a blend of coconut (INS about 258 ) and olive (INS about 105). 

Obviously a lard soap has different qualities than a coconut-olive soap even if the INS happens to be the same, so INS is not the only property that a handcrafted soap maker might want to look at. It's just a useful guideline; definitely not an absolute.

Here is more about the origins of INS and how to calculate INS values: http://www.jaschesoap.com/homemade-soap/cold-process/soap-ins-values/

Hope this helps! --DeeAnna


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## melstan775 (Apr 2, 2013)

Here is another link that may help you SoapPapaw. This one is commonly referenced when the very question you asked, is asked. This is from soapcalc.net, a commonly used soapmaking calculator, and gives some info about each characteristic of soap properties.  

http://www.soapcalc.net/info/SoapQualities.asp


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## cm4bleenmb (Dec 19, 2013)

*also curious about SoapCalc numbers*

I kind of highjacked another thread asking questions about the value of the SoapCalc numbers and someone suggested the subject it would make a good thread on it's own and I agreed. I was going to start one but then I reasoned that someone HAD to of asked about it at least once already so I searched and found this one. Here is the post I was going to copy for starting a new thread, I'm really curious to hear about others experiences and/or comments about those pesky numbers!

Everyone has been so helpful, I really appreciate the willingness of you all to share your hard-earned knowledge. As someone who only plans to make soap for myself and a little bit of gifting, I have found it invaluable--it has shortened the learning curve considerably.
I have another question about interpreting the soapcalc numbers. I decided I should just go to some tried and true recipes from experienced soapers instead of starting right out making up my own and like a good little soaper, I run any recipe through a lye calculator before I think about using it. I was hoping I could learn something by comparing the numbers with the book's description of the soap but I ended up even more confused.
The recipe I'm using for an example is from a book by Delores Boone; in the description she says that the oils are easy to obtain and are economical but have minimal conditioning. It uses canola, castor, CO, and OO; SoapCalc gives it a 79 for conditioning. Isn't that the _high_ end of the range? 
So, I played around some more. I don't remember the exact oils I used, I just remember that I was not using CO, I think it had lard or Crisco, sunflower and cocoa butter, just something simple like that. My hardness was low and conditioning was so-so. So, I decided to keep increasing the percentage of cocoa butter (because I had read it contributed to hardness) and see what it said. But every time I raised the percentage of cocoa butter and reduced the liquid oil I was using, the hardness number went down! And it didn't help with the conditioning at all. I'm beginning to think there's no point in looking at those numbers at all and that's kind of discouraging because for someone who won't make pounds and pounds of soap, being able to use something like that to help choose what to do could be so helpful.
So what do you think people? How do you interpret the numbers? Or do you not use them at all?:crazy:


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## DeeAnna (Dec 19, 2013)

Hey, cm4bleenmb -- see these threads:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=40414
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=39953
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38562
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38763
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38708

Oh, and these too:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38207
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=38181

Found more:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36564
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36717
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36775


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## DeeAnna (Dec 19, 2013)

I can't really explain what was going on when you were evaluating the effect of cocoa butter on your recipe -- I'd have to know more or be sitting next to you as you work for me to be able to help you understand the results you saw. All I can say is the SoapCalc numbers don't lie, but I concede they don't always tell us what we are expecting to hear. I'm going to share something I've been working on for awhile -- it may be helpful to you or it might not, but here goes: 

*********

When evaulating a soap recipe, you can look at the individual amounts of each fatty acid (myristic, lauric, stearic, palmitic, oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc) to determine the effect of each fatty acid on the soap ... or you can use the SoapCalc "numbers" to do much the same thing, only simpler. Problem is ... and I've said this elsewhere on SMF ... is that the names of the SoapCalc numbers are misleading. It is also important to remember that the fatty acid profile and the SoapCalc numbers do not account for the effect of superfat nor the effect of additives (sugar, milk, honey, sodium lactate, etc.)

So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric	0
Myristic	0
Palmitic	25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic	28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic	0
Oleic	        29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic	2-7%	 (average is about 4%)
Linolenic    0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness	61 
Cleansing	0
Condition	38
Bubbly	0
Creamy    61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

*Hardness: *The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids. 

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. The Hardness number does NOT tell you how hard the soap will be after cure -- for example, castile (100% olive oil) soap has a low hardness number, but is very hard after a good cure. The Hardness number also does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%. 
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%. 

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

*Cleansing: *The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids. 

The cleansing number is a measure of how water soluble the soap is, meaning how easily the soap will dissolve and perform in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water. 

The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will still clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile =  0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

1/4/2015 update: Is it more important to have a high "conditioning" number or a low "cleansing" number when formulating a mild soap? And why? See this post for more: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=468038&postcount=10

*Conditioning: *The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids. 

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to clean gently. A high conditioning number is not good for a laundry soap that needs to be an efficient cleanser, but it is appropriate in a soap made to clean delicate or sensitive skin.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

*Bubbly: *The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids. 

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long. 

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right? 

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0%  + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

*Creamy: *The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile =  30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

*Long life:* The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water. 

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile =  30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.


Okay, whew, I quit for now!


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## judymoody (Dec 19, 2013)

I "heart" DeeAnna!  

Thank you!


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## Obsidian (Dec 19, 2013)

Thank you DeeAnna, I clipped this whole page to my evernote.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 20, 2013)

Now THERE is an article idea!


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## houseofwool (Dec 20, 2013)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Now THERE is an article idea!



Yes please!


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## shunt2011 (Dec 20, 2013)

DeeAnna I bow down to you!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 20, 2013)

Woolly, I think I'll leave it for DeeAnna to do - I don't think I understand it half as well as one would need to in order to explain it so well as she does


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## Ancel (Dec 20, 2013)

Thank you DeeAnna once again for your knowledge, patience, generosity and sheer enthusiasm for this stuff! Invaluable, posted to evernote too


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## DeeAnna (Dec 20, 2013)

Thanks, all! I'm glad you are finding this helpful. Bear in mind it is a work in progress. For example, I should have included the fats that contribute the fatty acids -- forgot about that.


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## Susie (Dec 20, 2013)

*Please sticky DeeAnna's reply*

Everyone needs to be able to get that easily.  Pretty please?

DeeAnna- awesome info!  I just can't thank you enough for breaking it down for a new soaper!


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## goteeguy (Dec 20, 2013)

With the OP mentioning how she's formulating a soap for someone who is *allergic to coconut oil*, I'd play it safe and *not* use Palm, Palm Kernel, or Babassu oils.

These are all types of palm oil - and since coconuts grow on palm trees there may be risk of an allergic reaction to these as well.

(Unless someone can tell me otherwise...)


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## MzMolly65 (Dec 20, 2013)

Wow .. thank you so much for such an informative post.  I've saved that one for future reference.


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## cm4bleenmb (Dec 20, 2013)

*All Hail, DeeAnna!*

Ermagerd! DeeAnna! THAT was awesome. I think I will print that out and make a beautiful poster for my craft room out of it. :clap:

In about half a dozen of your posts  vou have given me more information, and explained it clearly enough for me to understand, than all of the soap books I've read all put together. And I've read A LOT of soaping books--I have a library card and I'm not afraid to use it.

I never intend to start a soap business, I don't want to spend years working on a "perfect" recipe, and I don't want to be throwing half my soap out. Yet at the same time, I don't want to just blindly copy other people's recipes, I would like to develop enough knowledge and confidence to do some personalization. This forum has been the best thing I have found and I really feel that I can do that now. 

Thank you, thank you and Blessings to you all!!!


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## GreenEggsAndPam (Dec 20, 2013)

Awesome post, DeeAnna.  And I have been "going by the numbers" to make the "perfect" soap.  Doh!  

My husband has asked for a hard soap, since he likes to really soap up and can go through a bar fairly quickly, so I was always going for a 20 on the hardness number.  (sigh)  Back to the drawing board...    Aw, shucks, guess I'll just have to make some more soap...

I have a question on the allergy to coconut oil.  If Lye + Coconut Oil = Sodium Cocoate, then would someone still be allergic to that?


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## DeeAnna (Dec 20, 2013)

GreenEggsAndPam -- I can't speak from personal experience, but my understanding is, yes, some folks can still be sensitive to the coconut even when it's a soap. 

For a harder AND longer-lived soap, look at adding fats higher in stearic and palmitic acids -- some possibilities include lard, tallow, palm, cocoa butter, shea butter, mango butter. Even rice bran oil and palm-based Crisco shortening will help.

 Also, cure your soap well to evaporate as much moisture as possible before using it -- the drier the soap, the longer it will last.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 21, 2013)

I would also imagine that if you had superfatted, some of the coconut would still be unsaponified.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 21, 2013)

Ah, EG, yes, you are absolutely right. Good point!


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## Obsidian (Dec 21, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> *Long life*: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.
> 
> Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.
> 
> ...



This is the best piece of info for me. It explains why my bars with a hardness of 35 last forever, they are very low cleansing at only 8 so the lasting number is 27. Thats the highest out of all my bars and this stuff does last *forever*


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## DeeAnna (Dec 21, 2013)

One of my soap making friends critiqued my earlier recipes. She loved the feel of the soap on her skin and enjoyed using the soap in the shower, but she wanted the bars to last longer. Given that she's made soap for a long time and knows what she's talking about, I took her comment very seriously. When I analyzed the recipes I was using at the time, I found the "long lasting" number was in the upper teens and low 20s. 

I tweaked my basic recipes to increase the "long lasting" number into the upper 20s -- in other words, I've increased the % of stearic and palmitic acids in my fats. My soap is now firmer and easier to unmold and has, once cured, a better balance between lathery-ness and longevity. I need to give Renae some of this newer soap and see what she says about it -- she's never been bashful about sharing her opinion!


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## karenbeth (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks DeeAnna. Great post. Now I understand what I need to do to get my soap to last longer. Many of my testers have said certain soaps didn't last long. Now I know why.


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## Obsidian (Dec 21, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> I tweaked my basic recipes to increase the "long lasting" number into the upper 20s -- in other words, I've increased the % of stearic and palmitic acids in my fats. My soap is now firmer and easier to unmold and has, once cured, a better balance between lathery-ness and longevity. I need to give Renae some of this newer soap and see what she says about it -- she's never been bashful about sharing her opinion!



Thats a big problem I have, I can't seem to get a good balance that produces a lasting bar and decent bubbles. My a fore mentioned bars with the low cleansing numbers is super gentle, has great slip and leaves my skin soft but it has low bubbles. I can work up a pretty decent lather with a bath poof but I wish I could increase the bubbles a bit without increase the cleansing.
I have such horrible dry skin that most CP is too harsh for me. I've gotten some wonderful bars from other members through trades and I can't use them, hubby gets them all:sad:


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## seven (Dec 21, 2013)

I read that you can use sugar to help with the bubbles? if memory serves me right, 1 tsp ppo? castor oil is supposed to increase lather too, but i'm sure you already familiar with that.


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## karenbeth (Dec 21, 2013)

I don't use palm, but when I put a little bit in a recipe it makes a huge difference to hardness. Now to get the same result without palm. So off to research alternative oils high in palmitic and stearic.


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## karenbeth (Dec 21, 2013)

Maybe RBO. I haven't used it much - don't know why as it's readily available and cheap.


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## cm4bleenmb (Dec 21, 2013)

karenbeth said:


> Maybe RBO. I haven't used it much - don't know why as it's readily available and cheap.



I haven't found it in any stores near me, not even Wallyworld. Any hints or tips on where to look? And what general price level is cheap?

Update: I found a place online that is sort of like a Cabela's or Gander Mountain and they have a gallon of rice bran oil for $9.99, and S/H is about $6. It says it's 100% RBO, it's intended for frying--you know, like in those whole-turkey fryers. Is this a decent price if I don't plan to buy in bulk?


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## cm4bleenmb (Dec 21, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> I need to give Renae some of this newer soap and see what she says about it -- she's never been bashful about sharing her opinion!



Bwah, ha, ha, ha, ha!!! Guess what my real name is? That's right, and in almost 50 years I have only met ONE other person who also spells it correctly.


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## karenbeth (Dec 21, 2013)

I live in Australia and can get 3 litres for $20 at local supermarkets.


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## Obsidian (Dec 21, 2013)

I generally use lard instead of palm since its a ton cheaper, is available everywhere and makes really nice soap. A bit of castor and sugar are standard in most my soap.


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## karenbeth (Dec 21, 2013)

Yeah Avoiding animal fats too not that I'm vegetarian, but I have children with strong views, and one is vegan. I enjoy the challenge of making a nice soap that fits their 'niche'


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## DeeAnna (Dec 21, 2013)

I bought my rice bran oil from Soapers Choice (Columbus Foods) -- they're located in Chicago. But I think I've heard others mention RBO can be found in Asian markets or groceries in larger cities.


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## GreenEggsAndPam (Dec 21, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> GreenEggsAndPam -- I can't speak from personal experience, but my understanding is, yes, some folks can still be sensitive to the coconut even when it's a soap.
> 
> For a harder AND longer-lived soap, look at adding fats higher in stearic and palmitic acids -- some possibilities include lard, tallow, palm, cocoa butter, shea butter, mango butter. Even rice bran oil and palm-based Crisco shortening will help.
> 
> Also, cure your soap well to evaporate as much moisture as possible before using it -- the drier the soap, the longer it will last.



Thanks for all of your information, DeeAnna.  It is very helpful.  

I went back and looked at the recipes for each of my soap batches, and sure enough the harder bars were in the 20's and the softer bars were in the teens for long lasting values.  My harder bars have tallow, coconut, palm and shea butter, mainly for their hardness (and add'l) values, plus some olive and castor.  Lots of different oils, yes, but I was trying for the 'perfect man bar'.  LOL

Only problem is that my husband won't use his 'man bars' now; he says he will only use soap with clay in it.  How funny is that?  Now I have to add clay to everything...


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## cmzaha (Dec 22, 2013)

cm4bleenmb said:


> I haven't found it in any stores near me, not even Wallyworld. Any hints or tips on where to look? And what general price level is cheap?
> 
> Update: I found a place online that is sort of like a Cabela's or Gander Mountain and they have a gallon of rice bran oil for $9.99, and S/H is about $6. It says it's 100% RBO, it's intended for frying--you know, like in those whole-turkey fryers. Is this a decent price if I don't plan to buy in bulk?


 
Try a restaurant supply. I buy 35 lbs for approx $40.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 22, 2013)

"...my husband won't use his 'man bars' now; he says he will only use soap with clay in it..."

<sigh> My DH has become fixated on pine tar soap. Any pine tar soap will do ... he's not picky about the recipe ... but it's gotta have pine tar in it. 

I might as well not bother with any other type of soap, except most everyone else wrinkles up their nose at a pine tar bar and looks at me rather oddly. Even my chiropractor who is a back-to-the-earth type and is usually willing to try some oddball stuff. So I make other types of soap to make my friends happy, but pine tar rules at our abode.

I'm becoming a reluctant connoisseur of pine tar and the soap that is made from it. <sigh>


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 22, 2013)

DeeAnna said:


> "...my husband won't use his 'man bars' now; he says he will only use soap with clay in it..."
> 
> <sigh> My DH has become fixated on pine tar soap. Any pine tar soap will do ... he's not picky about the recipe ... but it's gotta have pine tar in it.
> 
> ...



If no-one wants any of my 11 bars I know where to send them!


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## GreenEggsAndPam (Dec 22, 2013)

Note to self: avoid trying pine tar in my soap?  lol

He likes the clay because he has thick skin, and it cleans it extra well.  Doesn't even mind that it's rose clay.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 22, 2013)

"...If no-one wants any of my 11 bars I know where to send them!..."

Yep! 

But I bet you'll find some takers, especially if you let the bars cure for several months. The smoky scent loses its burnt rubber tang and gets lighter and mellower with some age, although it will always have a "sitting around the campfire" aroma.

There is a bit of a silver lining to my pine tar cloud -- I'd swear pine tar increases the lather quite a bit and changes the texture of the lather in a nice way -- it's somewhere between the fluffy foam of coconut oil soap and the dense whipped-cream of lard/tallow soap. More like whipped egg whites. Very nice.


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## InNae (May 7, 2014)

*Sainthood???*



DeeAnna said:


> I can't really explain what was going on when you were evaluating the effect of cocoa butter on your recipe -- I'd have to know more or be sitting next to you as you work for me to be able to help you understand the results you saw. All I can say is the SoapCalc numbers don't lie, but I concede they don't always tell us what we are expecting to hear. I'm going to share something I've been working on for awhile -- it may be helpful to you or it might not, but here goes:



I won't quote the entire thing, but I'm going to nominate you for soaping sainthood. 

InNae


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## sarasvati (Sep 30, 2018)

@DeeAnna , I just discovered your post explaining oil properties and fatty acids. Thank you for this great information!


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## soapgeek (May 20, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> I can't really explain what was going on when you were evaluating the effect of cocoa butter on your recipe -- I'd have to know more or be sitting next to you as you work for me to be able to help you understand the results you saw. All I can say is the SoapCalc numbers don't lie, but I concede they don't always tell us what we are expecting to hear. I'm going to share something I've been working on for awhile -- it may be helpful to you or it might not, but here goes:
> 
> *********
> 
> ...


I'm not exactly sure how I just stumbled across this, but wow! 

Thank you DeeAnna for posting this, I have to say I thought hardness was the hardness of the finished product, and that cleansing related to how well the soap would clean (or as I interpreted cleaning 'strip the skin of its natural oils')... so glad I read this, thanks again!


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