# Making my first cold process soap batch



## lindakschickens (Jul 10, 2018)

I have used melt and pour bases in the past just because they are quick simple no real wait time but I wanted something more traditional if you will. So I have decided I am going to make a batch of cold process soap I bought the things I would like in a soap like raw unrefined shea butter & cocoa butter as well as castor oil (hear it helps with lather and such), apricot kernel oil, aloe vera butter, coconut oil. I also bought the much needed lye (caustic soda) I also bought some natural orange/yellow dye, some peach color mica and a peach fragrance. Heck I even made my own oat milk to use as my liquid in my soap.

All of my soap stuff will be here tomorrow and I'm pretty excited. But now I have a slight worry I have used a soap calculator to figure out the water and lye and it says just for my base: 

Lye (Sodium Hydroxide) 76.70 g
Grams of liquid 173.25 g
Total 249.95 g 

Aloe Butter 100.00 g 19.0 %
Apricot Kernel Oil 100.00 g 19.0 %
Castor Oil 25.00 g 4.8 %
Cocoa Butter 100.00 g 19.0 %
Coconut Oil (Virgin) 100.00 g 19.0 %
Shea Butter (Unrefined) 100.00 g 19.0 %
Total 525.00 g 100 %

Totals
Lye & Liquid 249.95 g
Oils & Fats 525.00 g

Total batch yield: 774.95

But I'm unsure if this is right amount of lye and liquid (I am horrid at math).

Do I also have to add and figure out the dye/mica and fragrance into the soap? 
Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## earlene (Jul 10, 2018)

It looks right in terms of water & NaOH for a 30.7% Lye Concentration and a 3% SF, so the lye calculator information is correct, if that is your question.  If you are not using Lye Concentration in your calculations, but using Water to Lye Ratio this is what you ended up with : Water : Lye Ratio - 2.257 *:* 1


As for figuring out the fragrance, the lye calculator does that too.  In soapee, at 3%, in this formula, you would use 15.8 grams.  But you need to know the safe usage rate for the fragrance you bought in case you need to change the percentage rate in the lye calculator.  If your lye calculator does not figure the fragrance amount needed for you, you can do it by hand or try another calculator that does.  I use soapee most often but have used several others as well.  My second choice is soapcalc.  But there are many others.  I just feel that soapee is the easiest to use with the least amount of extra steps and it gives me results on-the-fly if I decide to make changes.

Soapee:  http://soapee.com/calculator

SoapCalc:  http://soapcalc.net/calc/soapcalcwp.asp

Out of curiosity, which soap calculator did you use?  I am always interested in seeing new ones (new to me.)  If you have a link, I'd love to take a look.

To address the amount of mica:  That is such a personal thing, as it depends on how pale or dark you want the soap color.  However, too much can lead to colored lather, and sometimes staining of wash cloths, so that's something to be aware of.  I recommend checking the vendor where you bought the micas and dyes for the recommended amount in CP soap (if you are doing HP soap, it should be the same amount.)  If your vendor does not say how much is standard usage in soap, I'd start out by testing small amounts and document those amounts in your notebook or on the notes section of your online calculator.  I generally use a very small amount of micas and my measuring device is a small plastic babyfood spoon.  I've weighed micas in grams, but they don't all weigh the same, so it's hard to say how much weight is right for unknown micas, etc.  I'd start out with 1/2 babyspoonful for pale color and 1 babyspoonful for more color.  But again, it really depends on the particular colorant and your own personal taste.


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## IrishLass (Jul 10, 2018)

Is your question: "Is this a good superfat % and lye concentration to use for my formula?" or is it: "Is the calculator giving me correct info?"

If it is the latter question, then ditto what Earlene said. I got the same results as she did using SoapCalc, i.e., the given lye amount that you posted for your batch results in having a 3% superfat, and the given water amount results in a 30.7 lye concentration. If that is your desired superfat and lye concentration, go for it! 


IrishLass


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## dixiedragon (Jul 10, 2018)

IMO that's not a very good recipe. You have 20% shea and 20% cocoa butter - that's going to make for a soap recipe that gets very thick very fast, and I think it will have very poor lather. If you are just dead set on it, go for it, but be prepared to move fast. 

But for something more tried and true:

50% lard  (or tallow or palm)
15% coconut 
5% castor
30% olive (or sunflower or rice bran)
5% superfat
You could drop the 30% olive to 25% and use 5% apricot kernel. 

I don't recommend the aloe butter because it is soybean shortening blended with aloe. The lye monster will gobble up that aloe. It would be cheaper to use Crisco (or a store brand shortening).

I also like this:
Castor 5
Coconut 20
Shea butter 50
Sunflower 25
2% superfat. Use the lower superfat here because the unsaponifiables (things that don't become soap) in the shea butter will kill lather, and the low superfat makes up for it.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 10, 2018)

Earlene I used https://www.brambleberry.com/pages/lye-calculator.aspx  for the calculations also no they did not give any usage info on the mica and dyes nor did they give me anything for the peach fragrance either. IrishLass it's a bit of both I suck at asking questions and end up rolling about 8 into 1 half the time. 

Dixiedragon I would have thought that 19% of shea & cocoa butter along with 19% aloe butter, apricot kernel oil, virgin coconut oil would balance it out a lil bit but that's me as I read cocoa butter has a poor to  average lather ability and shea is labeled as poor to average to and castor oil has the came poor to average lather  apricot is supposedly a average lather .My thought tho was coupled those with coconut oil that is suppose to have a large fluffy lather  would make a bar that is average lather. Also my aloe butter is not aloe blended with soybean shorting it's blended with coconut oil so basically a double dose of coconut oil with added aloe. I really have no intention of going above a 3% superfat. I also don't like lard/tallow or palm for various reasons. but I do like the idea of sunflower so thanks for giving me that idea as I have some laying around


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## lindakschickens (Jul 10, 2018)

I'm also thinking of making a cold process soap with charcoal in it for problematic skin has anyone done this or maybe some suggestions?


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## dixiedragon (Jul 10, 2018)

I've done charcoal. You definitely need to blend it with some water or glycerin before you add it. Oil might work, I'm not sure about that. I would suggest ordering it only or getting the charcoal capsules in the gel cap. The aquarium stuff is in small granules that you will have to grind down really fine, and unless you have a mortar and pestle that's hard to do.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 10, 2018)

I mix my charcoal with a bit of oil from my batch with no problem.  I agree with your recipe not being that good.  I would drop the butter percentage and I’ve not used aloe butter so can’t speak to that.  But you can certainly give it a try.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 10, 2018)

Dixiedragon cheers I'll definitely look into charcoal gel caps.

We'll I'm going to make a small test batch of my soap base in a similar ratio but only enough to make a small bar or 2 so that way I can tweek it a bit if I don't like it. Then again I'm not overly worried about lather just need something that will really moisturize my skin well.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

Right so I'm making a really small batch of this soap I'm thinking I'll get any where from 2-6 bars i'm going to be pouring the soap base into some really cool half sphere silicon molds I just go from the hubby. I'm will be replacing normal water with homemade oat milk, I'm also going to add the color and fragrance to the melted fats/oil this may or may not go in my favor but someone told me it might be easier to do that if I'm unsure how quickly this will thicken ( which if I read dixidragon's comment right she hit on that).

I did run it thought the Soapcalc that Earlene stated I did alter it a little added a screen shot thingy for you guys to look at and tell me what you all think. Got most of my stuff I need well minus the castor oil and cocoa butter but that should be here soon (amazon blasted slow when you really need something but what you can wait on they deliver really quick *rolls eyes*).


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## shunt2011 (Jul 11, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> Right so I'm making a really small batch of this soap I'm thinking I'll get any where from 2-6 bars i'm going to be pouring the soap base into some really cool half sphere silicon molds I just go from the hubby. I'm will be replacing normal water with homemade oat milk, I'm also going to add the color and fragrance to the melted fats/oil this may or may not go in my favor but someone told me it might be easier to do that if I'm unsure how quickly this will thicken ( which if I read dixidragon's comment right she hit on that).
> 
> I did run it thought the Soapcalc that Earlene stated I did alter it a little added a screen shot thingy for you guys to look at and tell me what you all think. Got most of my stuff I need well minus the castor oil and cocoa butter but that should be here soon (amazon blasted slow when you really need something but what you can wait on they deliver really quick *rolls eyes*).



Too much castor oil.  You don't want to go over 10%.  You will end up with sticky soap.   Also, too much CO with that low of a SF.   Will be very stripping (cleansing 37) to the skin.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

Sticky soap would that not mean it would be soft and not hard? also I was under the impression that if cleansing is high but the conditioning is higher that it would slightly even out if thats wrong any suggestions would greatly help to fix the balance would be great


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## dixiedragon (Jul 11, 2018)

Coconut oil soap is very cleansing and harsh. If you have dry skin, I'd drop the coconut oil to 10% or so and try that. Soap is a wash-off product so it isn't moisturizing really. I'd focus on a gentle/mild soap, which means low or no coconut.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

Dixiedragon I think I will reduce the coconut oil a bit. I did find on that soap calc that aloe butter is stated as
Hardness 74
Cleansing 63
Condition 9
Bubbly 63
Creamy 11
Iodine 9
INS241

thankfully I only put in 10g of the stuff I did find I have pure rapeseed oil in my place also found my good bottle (well 2 bottles really) ove 100% pure extra virgin olive oil from Spain which I decided to put a lil of both of these in my new base any looks more level if you will I have a new pic of the levels which I'm pretty happy with what do you all think?


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## dixiedragon (Jul 11, 2018)

I wanted to add that a 1-bar batch is IMO too small - to easy to make an error. I'd recommend at least 1 (4 bars) - preferably 2. If you don't care for the resulting soap, you can always give it away!

TBH, I think your special olive oil would be totally wasted in soap. I use Grade A olive oil, vs extra virgin. I buy mine at Costco.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

I think I'll get maybe 2-4 bars at 1-2oz ea in half a sphere form easier for me to store smaller bars. I would not say it's special olive oil  I just say good as I bought it really cheap but it's really good all round tastes great in a vinaigrette tho lol. I managed to now burn my eyes out or get lye on me tho so that is a major plus *thumbs up*


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## earlene (Jul 11, 2018)

I can't read your formula because it's just too small, so what I have say does not reflect your specific amounts.

Being in  the UK, I understand costs are bou d to be different than for soaperswho in the US. That's actually true in many o the countries as well. So using EVOO is not a waste if the price is right. Same goes for other oils that I might consider a luxury item. If it were more affordable I'd use them in soap, too.

Another thing I have read from other soapers in the UK was that many people like soap with higher percentages of CO. I wonder if it is related to some environmental differences, like lots of fog in London keeping the skin more moist, for example.

But when folks here say your batch size is too small, it's really about accuracy of weights and the potential for higher error rates related to using a scale that may not measure accurately at very low amounts. If you don't have a scale that weighs accurately to 0.001 grams, the potential for error in making a batch weighting, say, 350 grams or less is really quite high.  

I have two scales to accommodate the need to measure different amounts. My bigger scale measures to 0.01 gram accuracy and the small one measures to 0.001 grams.  The smaller scale is necessary to get accurate weights for fragrances in small batches, and other ingredients where the amounts need to be more accurate.  

So it's not about what's easier.; it's about what's safer. Measuring caustic in very small amounts means you need a scale that is accurate to 0.001 grams, otherwise you could potentially end up with lye heavy soap.

I am using my tablet, so for some reason I can't fix the typos in my above post.


Bound should have an n.

Other countries, not "o countries"


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

thankfully i have a good scale. but seriously how long does it take to trace soap by hand


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## Obsidian (Jul 11, 2018)

It depends on the recipe, could take 10 minutes, could take two hours.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

well i have been at it 45min to a hr omg.. im buying a stick blender asap


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## dixiedragon (Jul 11, 2018)

LOL. Yes, that's why we (almost universally) worship stick blenders. If your soap is in a pot, you could put it on your stove on LOW (the lowest or second lowest heat setting you have). The heat will stop you from getting false trace and also speed up the process.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

dixiedragon thank you im doing that right now that and buying a stick blender lol


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

Dixiedragon thank you for the advice it worked like a charm. I just bought stick blender to so maybe I won't have to do the bain marie thing again lol. also had to buy a new scale as I  just broke mine trying to put it away and tripped over the blasted dog. I'll get pictures of the soap and mold etc later. I hear I'm suppose to let it rest for 24-48 hrs before unmolding it. just want to make sure that is right.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 11, 2018)

It should be texture/firmness of a block of cheddar cheese when you unmold. Depending on your recipe, your temps and the whims of the soap gods, that could be 12 hrs or a few days. I generally unmold 12-24 hours later.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 11, 2018)

Thanks for the heads up dixiedragon. Can't wait to unmold them hope it goes right they smell nice like cocoa butter and peaches tho.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 12, 2018)

Well just checked on my soap it has set enough to take it out of the mold it's still a little soft but I'm sure that is normal. It has a wonderful cocoa peach smell and it's a pretty shimmery peachy/orange colour. Also just got my new stick blender and scale now I'm going to do a dye and fragrance free version of what I made yesterday. The dried-ish soap on my soap making jug produces quite a bubbly cream lather which is nice to bad the peach smell don't last overly long tho. I'm going to make a sandalwood soap using red sandalwood powder blended into my liquid and a rose petal powder soap doing the same thing but I'm going to use rose water in that one.


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## earlene (Jul 12, 2018)

The color is quite nice and the soaps remind me of orange sherbet. Congratulations on your soaking success.

Many fragrances do not linger on the skin, unfortunately. Some don't even last long into the cure even. But there are some that do both. One of my all time favorites, Dragons Blood,lingers on the skin, as well as staying in the soap for ages and ages. I just washed with an Easter Egg soap I made about 16 months ago and the fragrance remains almost as strong as when new and my hands smell of DB for hours. I just love this scent. It's one drawback is it will turn the whitest soap Brown. However, the Brown fades to a lovely caramel color in use in this Easter Egg soap, so I'm okay with it.

There are some scents that fade with cure, BUT come back when using the soap. I can't think of any off-hand, but that's really a nice surprise if you are not expecti g it.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 12, 2018)

What I would not give for some good orange sherbet. Thanks for letting me know about dragons blood for soap making. If it turns soap brown that might be something  else I can use to get brown soap for some pinecone shaped soap


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## lindakschickens (Jul 12, 2018)

Well I did the zap test on my new soap taste like soap no burning or electric type whatever. This soap is really soft almost like a thick jelly kinda nice really but I assume it might be because of the rapeseed and olive oil I did add sugar to that base to boost lather I did use a bit of one dome as I kind squished it oops. I did make a new soap base no dye or fragrance, used homemade oat milk mixing the lye into it makes it gloppy but it's not hard to mix or anything recipe as follows. Yes castor oil is high in this most to make up for the lack of olive oil and rapeseed oil
Aloe Butter 20g
Apricot Kernel Oil 45g
Castor Oil 60g
Coconut Oil 60g
Coco Butter 40g
Shea Butter 40g.
*Soap Bar Quality* *Range* *Your Recipe*
Hardness 29 - 54. 40
Cleansing 12 - 22. 20
Conditioning 44 - 69. 55
Bubbly 14 - 46. 40
Creamy 16 - 48. 41
Iodine 41 - 70. 54
INS 136 - 165. 155


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## cmzaha (Jul 12, 2018)

First off remember, soap is not a moisturizer it is for cleaning albeit gently if it is a good balanced bar. 
Castor does not make a good replacement for OO or Rapeseed Oil. You would have been better off using more of your Apricot Kernel Oil which would have offset off some of the butter. Aloe butter is not much different from shortening so save your money, you can just use some aloe juice as part or all water replacement. 

I do congratulate you on your first soap, but you can make a much better balanced soap using less butter and also helps cut cost.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

While soap is not a full on moisturizer it can help if the right things are used I'm not really bothered by the amount butter used it's the same price or cheaper then the apricot kernel oil and to be fair I perfer my butters but everyone is different. 

Aloe butter is different from shorting at lest what we get in the UK it's made with coconut oil and aloe vera not veg oil or soybean oil etc. 

As for costs I est each small bar I made yesterday (which got really hard  in fact harder then my first batch using rapeseed and olive oil the previous day) cost me roughly £1 if that and thats me rounding up to the nearest whole. My molds cost more then my butters,oils,lye,dye and frangrances.

But depending on where we live what's readily available, what's cheap and our preference everyone's soap and how they view others preferences will be effected. 

I also have more castor because it helps with bubbly lather apricot kernel oil does not help that and it made my bar softer then I wanted when I reduced the butters so I reduced the apricot kernel oil increased the butters and increased the castor oil. I unmolded this soap last night and will be doing the zap test on it today if it goes well I'll see how well it does so soon after being made.


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## artemis (Jul 13, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> Aloe butter is different from shorting at lest what we get in the UK it's made with coconut oil and aloe vera not veg oil or soybean oil etc.



The points made are still the same. It's still more expensive than just using CO and aloe. The only benefit it can add is the aloe, right? 

I was always impressed by all the different "butters" until I discovered they we're just palm or CO plus a little "special" oil or other ingredient. 

This was your first batch ever, is that right? I just want to point out that no one here is trying to be your Mom or criticize your oil/fat choices. Just about everyone here has been excited to use some of these different items and tried them out and are offering their experience. So, if more than one person says, "too much castor makes a sticky bar..." Or "too much CO can be drying," maybe ask some more questions or do a search to see if there's a consensus.

Having said all that, sometimes, even after I have gathered all the thoughts and opinions, I still jump in and try anyway, just to see what it's like.


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## BrewerGeorge (Jul 13, 2018)

1)  You really DO need to be making a minimum of 500 g total to minimize the effects of the imprecision of your scale. For the 250 g batches you've been making the difference between 5% and 0% superfat is about a gram of NaOH.  With most kitchen scales having a 1 g precision, even a 500 g batch will swing within a percent or two of superfat as you stack the imprecision of every measurement in the batch.  The truth is that because almost any lye you buy will have absorbed water already making it less "pure" so you are unlikely to make a dangerously lye-heavy batch of soap.   What does happen, however, is that the imprecision makes it so that you don't really know what that soap you're using IS.  You can't make reliable subjective judgement of it and you can't reproduce it if you find something you like.

2)  Castor oil does not make more lather, it gives existing lather more longevity.  There is absolutely no reason to go above 5% with it, as it begins to have detrimental effects, and in no case should it go above 10%.

3)  Everybody has been critical of your fat choices, but you're not too far away with your last batch.  A 33% soap with brittle/hard/soft oils is a classic combination, and you're just about there.  In a vegan soap recipe, shea and cocoa butters can take the place of the "hard oil" component, and those two combined are about a third of your total.  Since you've said your aloe butter is coconut- based it's a "brittle oil" for soaping purposes and combined with your straight coconut makes up another third.  That leaves the apricot kernel third as "soft oil."   That would make a very good soap without any castor at all, but since you've got it use it at 5% for better bubble staying power.

So try this.  It has all your fat choices just tweaked to be more effective:
160 g of apricot kernel
80 g of aloe butter (BTW, if it's coconut oil based, use coconut in the calculator. The US Soapcalc is going to assume hydrogenated soy)
80 g of coconut oil
80 g of shea butter
80 g of cocoa butter
20 g of castor oil

If you want, play with the proportions of the cocoa and shea, or the aloe and coconut.  Add some olive or rapeseed in place of some of the apricot if you want.  Just keep the total of each category I described above at 160 g, and run any changes through a calculator to verify the lye.

Honestly, trust us and try these suggestions.  No, we're not trying to be your Mom (or Dad in my case) but you did come here presumably for advice from more experienced soapers, right?  These guidelines are traditional for a reason - they make good soap!


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## shunt2011 (Jul 13, 2018)

Also, you won't get the true feeling of your soap until it's had a proper cure of 4-6 weeks.  It's still young. Many soaps do better with an even longer cure.    As stated, nobody is trying to be your mom or dad, many of use are sharing our experience and knowledge as many here have been making and selling for a long time.  The members here have likely tried just about everything and sharing their knowledge freely.  You asked for help, it's being given.    If you want to experiment you a certainly can.  But, why waste ingredients (too much castor) when it's mot really helping over a certain percentage.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

Artemis it depends really coconut oil is cheap here in the UK aloe butter is just as cheap but getting 100% pure aloe vera is very costly and it's slightly hard to get in my area unless I got to a health food store or order online then again you might find out that's not 100%. I have found some place selling powdered aloe vera which I'm unsure about. I have no problem with people giving advice and stating their view but again the use of products depends on where in the world you live and how easy it is to get a hold of it. as for the castor oil making a sticky bar or coconut oil being drying it depends on the person and what else is in the batch that's my view. Also I have made 2 batches of soap one yesterday and one the day before that. the first one had olive oil and rapeseed oil and the bar is hard enough to push out of the mold but it's still really really soft.

BrewerGeorge Some of the soap books I have read said castor oil makes more and better lather and boosts anything else's lather abilities even a few sites have said something along those lines I would list the sites but I don't feel like rereading over 50+ soap sites. I will give the recipe you put up a try tho I think I'll tweak it a bit with the shea and coco butter as I love these to items. my first batch had olive and rapeseed oils either I did not do it right or these just make really soft soaps as my first batch is like a firmish jelly. still find it hard to believe aloe butter some people have used is mixed with soy.

I would use lard as it's cheap here but I'm unsure about using it in soap. and one try lard? also I was given a box of long shelf life milk stuff from someone and was thinking of using it in a oatmeal milk and honey soap anyone use boxed long shelf life milk in soap?

shunt2011 I use it a lot of castor oil because I bought a litre of it for like $3 USD or some where around £1-2. so not really pricey to me. besides what else can I use castor oil for?....seriously does it have other uses as I only know it's used in soap making.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 13, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> shunt2011 I use it a lot of castor oil because I bought a litre of it for like $3 USD or some where around £1-2. so not really pricey to me. besides what else can I use castor oil for?....seriously does it have other uses as I only know it's used in soap making.



If you decide to branch into lip balm, lotion etc it's good in those. also if you are constipated.


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## BrewerGeorge (Jul 13, 2018)

Lard?

Lard, you say? 



Heck yeah!  Lard is spectacular in soap.  I assumed that you were trying to make a vegan soap with the choices you listed.  It's a hard oil for soaping, so use it to replace some of the shea/cocoa.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 13, 2018)

Aloe Butter 20g
Apricot Kernel Oil 45g
Castor Oil 60g
Coconut Oil 60g
Coco Butter 40g
Shea Butter 40g.

So if your aloe butter is coconut oil, that puts your total coconut oil at 30%. You might like that, but you might not. 22% castor is really high - I'm curious to see how that will turn out!


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

Dixiedragon totally did not think of those got any ideas on lip balms as I totally need some lol! wait how does it help constipation?

I'm not vegan just got stuff I know tell ya what lard is great when your roasting a turkey! Will play around with lard now lol


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## BrewerGeorge (Jul 13, 2018)

IMO, don't overuse castor just because it was cheap and you want to "use it up."  Why make something non-optimal?  Cheap also means that it's no great loss if you don't use it all up before it goes rancid.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

Dixiedragon I ended up using one of my new soap domes using that recipe today it's hard as heck compared to the firmish jelly like one I made the previous day. 1 day out from being made it's not harsh on me makes loads of bubbles a bit creamy got grease off my hands but did not dry them out in fact it left my hands quite soft. 

The bar from the first batch is a firmish jelly (the orange colour does it justice) and has not really harden up, I used it 1 day out from being made and it makes a nice creamy lather with a mild amount of bubbles and leaves my hands really soft.

The other bars are curing tho I think I'll leave them for at least 4 weeks. I'm debating if I take the one's I trailed 1 day out from being made and rebatch them together as I think the oil oil and rapeseed might have made it a bit soft.

DrewerGeorge true true but I come from a family that don't like things going bad specially if we can use it up.. prob why my father has canned veg from 2008........


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## dixiedragon (Jul 13, 2018)

Castor has a long shelf life, unlike some oils - grapeseed and hemp come to mind. But you can always pour some of it into a smaller bottle and put it in the fridge or freezer. 

As to constipation - you just take a spoonful or so. I'm not recommending it, I'm just saying that it's in the pharmacy section as a laxative.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

Think I will freeze some thanks for the tip dixiedragon. Heck if I would have know that 2 years lol.

Question anyone else think it's a waste of saffron to just use it as a natural dye in soap?


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## shunt2011 (Jul 13, 2018)

I agree with too much castor.  Causes a sticky, softer bar of soap.  Not really optimal over 10%.        Cheap still adds up over the long run.


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## BrewerGeorge (Jul 13, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> ..
> 
> Question anyone else think it's a waste of saffron to just use it as a natural dye in soap?


Abso-fricking-lutely!

Most natural dies don't survive lye to any degree and saffron is WAY to precious to experiment with.

If you want natural yellow, use tumeric.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Abso-fricking-lutely!
> 
> Most natural dies don't survive lye to any degree and saffron is WAY to precious to experiment with.
> 
> If you want natural yellow, use tumeric.


That is what i was thinking someone goes oh use saffron to get a pretty yellow in your soap and I was like uh 5g max of it at £5 (round $7) no thanks I'll pass. I did make a new soap tho


1 Apricot Kernal Oil 140g (23.33 %)
2 Castor Oil 60g (10%)
3 Cocoa Butter 110g (18.33%)
4 Coconut Oil,. 180g (30%)
5 Shea Butter 110g (18.33)

Water 228g
Lye 84.93g

228g=8.04 oz so I used 2.04oz water and 6oz of milk. also added 1 tsb of honey  and 3 tsb of ground oats. Resulting mixture looks like a really dark honey colour (I really like it) I assume this is  because of the reaction of the milk with lye. I did put it in a neat mold (attached a pic of it and the size). I bought it thinking it might be easy to cut it into individual pieces what you all think?


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## BrewerGeorge (Jul 13, 2018)

Better, but still too much castor.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 13, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> That is what i was thinking someone goes oh use saffron to get a pretty yellow in your soap and I was like uh 5g max of it at £5 (round $7) no thanks I'll pass. I did make a new soap tho
> 
> 
> 1 Apricot Kernal Oil 140g (23.33 %)
> ...



It's likely a combination of the milk and the honey.  Sugars can scortch sometimes depending on when added.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Better, but still too much castor.


seriously  oh well at lest's it's not more then 10. but I think I added to much honey.. On a plus side my soap does look pretty like a dark honey brown!


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> It's likely a combination of the milk and the honey.  Sugars can scortch sometimes depending on when added.


ya thats defo what I was thinking! but again pretty colour for my soap. any suggestions on how to add milk and honey to soap.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 13, 2018)

I've used as much as 10% with out a problem.  Not often but I have 1 recipe I do.

I can only speak to how I add them.   I generally mix my lye with water.  I then add my milk to my oils and blend well.   My honey, I dissolve mix in a bit of warm water then also add it to my oils.  Some add their honey at trace.   I don't mind a bit of discoloration from the sugars.    I almost always use coconut milk.  when I add my lye water sometimes it turns a bit orange but I add a bit of TD to it and it's light light beige or white.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

Coconut milk I have some of that gonna try that in my next batch.  TD??


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## dixiedragon (Jul 13, 2018)

TD = Titanium dioxide. It's a white colorant. You can buy it at most soaping suppliers, but if you want a bit for right now, you can get it in the baking section of a craft store (Michael's, Hobby Lobby). It's a frosting color, the brand is Wilton. Read the ingredients- they should include glycerin and TD. (I think also sugar.)


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

dixiedragon said:


> TD = Titanium dioxide. It's a white colorant. You can buy it at most soaping suppliers, but if you want a bit for right now, you can get it in the baking section of a craft store (Michael's, Hobby Lobby). It's a frosting color, the brand is Wilton. Read the ingredients- they should include glycerin and TD. (I think also sugar.)


thanks for letting me know had no clue what TD stood for had no clue at all.  Another question I have heard and read of people doing single oil/fat soaps anyone do this?


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## BrewerGeorge (Jul 13, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> thanks for letting me know had no clue what TD stood for had no clue at all.  Another question I have heard and read of people doing single oil/fat soaps anyone do this?


Lots of us have done at least one, but not many oils are really suitable for a single oil soap, IMO.  High oleic soaps like olive, or HO safflower can be used to make Castille soaps but they need to age a year to be decent.  100% lard is okay, but it doesn't bubble much.  100% coconut is often used for laundry or dishes because of its cleaning power, but it would be rough on skin.

There are several threads that chronicle people's experiences with single-oil soap experiments if you search.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 13, 2018)

Thanks for the heads up BrewerGeorge! I will have a look.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 13, 2018)

Google single oil soaps and you'll find several interesting blog entries. I know Soap Queen did one, and I think Lovin Soap.


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## earlene (Jul 13, 2018)

If you want a yellow soap with a common kitchen spice, turmeric works nicely. Here it is not expensive and judging from the plethora of East Indian food available in London last time I was there, I am guessing it is no it too pricey there either. 

I am one of many who has experimentally made many single oil soaps. It was more because I wanted to see what each oil was like on its own and not a plan to try and find a single oil soap to become my go-to soap. It was a fun experiment which I have repeated recently with just a couple of oils. Doing a whole bunch of single oil soaps at once was a bit cumbersome.

Your soft OO & Rapeseed (Canola in the US) will probably remain soft for as long as 2 or 3 weeks, maybe more. If you used full water, the default in the lye calculator, it's just going to take a long time to get hard. Additionally, if you made a really small batch with a scale that only has an accuracy to 0.1 grams, then it is entirely possible that your measurements are just not as close to accurate as you might think. As BG mentions above.

So let that soap cure a good long time and keep an eye on it. Over time bars of soft oil soaps made with high water will also warp, so you could try turning them periodically if you prefer them to be straight.


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## Misschief (Jul 13, 2018)

dixiedragon said:


> TD = Titanium dioxide. It's a white colorant. You can buy it at most soaping suppliers, but if you want a bit for right now, you can get it in the baking section of a craft store (Michael's, Hobby Lobby). It's a frosting color, the brand is Wilton. Read the ingredients- they should include glycerin and TD. (I think also sugar.)



I did not know that! That's a good thing to know when all your fave suppliers are out of TD!


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## lindakschickens (Jul 14, 2018)

I use quite a bit of tumeric to make my cheesy bacon risotto and yes tumeric is pretty cheap here I can get a bag that almost 2lbs for maybe $5 max. It also makes a decent face mask for inflamed skin only downside you look like a oompa loompa after.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 14, 2018)

Forgot to add that I most likely will not make another batch of soap with bother rapeseed and olive oil again just because it's way to soft and I doubt a very long day time will help that but I could be wrong. It does lather quite nicely tho. Also bought 3 new soap making books for the heck of it and just unmolded my new milk & honey with ground oats smells like carmalized ( is that right?) Honey oatmeal cookies with a . Not a bad smell really. But I do have pictures of this soap out of the mold and I will be cutting it now so I can dry it.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 14, 2018)

has any one tried Babassu Oil in soap?


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## earlene (Jul 14, 2018)

I have not used it in soap as yet, although I do use it for my deodorant.  I may eventually try it in soap, but here it is rather expensive so I just haven't been motivated to do so.  There are others here who have used it in soap and really liked it.  You can find the threads when you do a search for babassu oil soaps.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 14, 2018)

I think for 500g of it's I found it for like $10 roughly..


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## penelopejane (Jul 14, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> Forgot to add that I most likely will not make another batch of soap with bother rapeseed and olive oil again just because it's way to soft and I doubt a very long day time will help that but I could be wrong. It does lather quite nicely tho. Also bought 3 new soap making books for the heck of it and just unmolded my new milk & honey with ground oats smells like carmalized ( is that right?) Honey oatmeal cookies with a . Not a bad smell really. But I do have pictures of this soap out of the mold and I will be cutting it now so I can dry it.



Is that a metal or plastic tray your soap is sitting on?


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## earlene (Jul 14, 2018)

Good catch, *penelopejane*.  It looks a bit like a coated metal cooking sheet from my monitor, but even that's not a good choice.  Teflon doesn't tolerate prolonged high alkaline environments, which will cause the coating to flake off, leaving the aluminum underneath exposed.


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## cmzaha (Jul 14, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> has any one tried Babassu Oil in soap?


Yes, and I find no real difference in soap made with Babassu versus Coconut oil. Babassu is replacement for CO and if you want a gentle soap I would not go over 20%, for me I do not go over 15-17%. You mention you want a moisturizing but uaws 30% CO in your soap. CO, Palm Kernel and Babassu are the oils that make soap very cleansing depending on the percentage. Most do not go over 20% but some do and love it. I have a soap here that I figure must be over 20% CO because it dries my hands out badly. It lathers like a champ, but it is not for me and it is not a soap I made.

As Earlene mentioned, Babassu is expensive here and I do not waste it. Actually I just checked the price per lb if I were to purchase it and it comes out to $7 per lb, which I consider expensive. I pay less than $1 per pound for Lard, Tallow or Palm Shortening. That is cheap.

It really is a waste to use over 5% Castor in cp or hp soap and accelerates trace noticeably. It is not a bubbly oil in soap it help support bubbles. I will also mention 1 liter is not a lot of Castor. Once you start making multiple batches you will find a liter of oil does not last long. Castor does have a long shelf life. 

While I am not a fan of OO in soap it does make a nice soap, and will harden up during cure time. You simply cannot judge a few days old soap and know how it is going to feel after a 4-6 week cure. I prefer Avocado Oil, Canola (Rapeseed) HO, Sunflower HO,  and Safflower HO (high Oleic). Many like to use Rice Bran since it is usually fairly inexpensive. Apricot Kernel and Peach Kernel Oil are lovely, and lend some bubbly factor but expensive. 

Butters are wonderful for adding hardness to vegan soaps if you choose not to use palm, but I can and do make soaps that rival high butter soaps without using any of the expensive butters. All pure butters are imported or at least I do not know of any that are not imported at least in the US. Most butters such as pistachio, avocado, blueberry, aloe, horsetail, coffee butter etc are made by mixing the oil with either vegetable oil or CO. You can get the same effect in soap by using shortening and some of the oil. As for Aloe you might find it in gallons know as Aloe Juice. Here we can find it at Walmart stores for approx $7 per gallon. Amazon has the same aloe juice I buy but it is double the price.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 14, 2018)

It's a metal try I believe it's stainless steel (unsure if its coated) under my silicon mold I put in under my molds when I come to unmolding them


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## lindakschickens (Jul 14, 2018)

cmzaha yes I want a moisturizing bar but I all so need it to clean really as sometimes my husband and me have very oily skin. I know it seems daft having high CO in my soap but I like CO and have never felt like it was to drying. I have read up a bit more on Barbassu oil and concluded that I will not be using it as part of my soap making right now at the present time.

My husband bought lard but for some weird reason it has rosemary in it... oh well give it a go. not keen on tallow as I hear there is a bit more work in that and I don't like palm oil and that for various reasons. not keen on shorting as the closest thing to it here costs more then lard and rather by lard because of price.

As for castor oil based on my new books 1 ( natural soap second edition) says " castor seed oil used in soap for its high foaming properties, this oil is particularly useful in shampoos & shaving soaps but does accelerate trace. in my other book (pure soapmaking how to create nourishing natural skin care soaps) "Castor oil, an extract of the castor bean plant, is a thick,sticky oil with a distinctive odor. It is light yellow in colour, but this doesn't typically affect the colour of the final product. Castor oil creates a large, luxurious bubbles, but is typically used at 8% or below in recipes to avoid tackiness.

So that is most likely why I use as much castor as I was under the idea it makes lots of bubbles. I have also read you can get more bubbles if you add sugar to your base so this might be something for me to look more into. also it's nice to know castor has a long shelf life. was just gifted about 2 litres of it this morning so I'm set for a lot of soap lol.

While yes day old soap will be not be any where near soap that has been left to cure I personally want to see what soap is like after 24-48 hours after 2-3 weeks after etc. Like right now all 3 soaps I have made are creamy but produce lots of bubbles and I mean lots at 2day(s) old which seems promising to me for when they are 4 weeks that they will have a decent level of bubbles but that's. me. I found my first batch is still really soft and hope as I leave longer it will harden but thus far unsure about using OO and rapeseed (canola) oil in the same soap base again as I think that is why that batch is so soft as compared to the other 2 batches I have made which are very hard after 24-48 hrs.

I though most butters would be imported to one extant or another, I did find a place that I can get  raw unrefined  organic (not mush more costly here in the UK compared to refined really) cocoa butter for well $17 for 2lbs 4oz not bad, shea butter for the same amount 2lbs 4oz well under $13. Before I moved to the UK from the USA I was paying $20 for a lb of each. might be cheaper due to the me living in the UK idk. I remember paying around $15 for half a lb of mango butter living in the USA making my own lotion/cold cream stuff. I personally would love to make my own butters if you will be can't be bothered I know lazy lol

But I will admit I totally forgot aloe juice! so thank you for saying so I will be looking for this now! thank you!


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## shunt2011 (Jul 14, 2018)

I don’t know where you were shopping in the US. I have never paid what you did for cocoa or Shea butter even with shipping.  I think what you are paying where your are is expensive.  Cocoa is about 5.00 and Shea 3.50 per pound.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 14, 2018)

this was also about 4-5 years ago before I left the USA and the shea and cocoa butter were raw, organic and unrefined as I like the smell (still do thats prob why the cost is more anyway). it's still roughly $8+ from the dealer I bought from, even the refined stuff I tried from brambleberry is $10.95 for a pound of cocoa butter plus side tho their shea butter is only $6.90 a pound now.  I have no clue where you are buying your shea and cocoa butters from but that is dirt cheap is it refined and all that is it organic etc? I would also be leery of it being so cheap bought really cheap butters once about 5-6 years back and I felt like I had acid on me thats why I don't mind paying more.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 14, 2018)

I’ve been making soap for 8 years and have never paid that. Yes, organic raw. I purchase from soapmaking supply company with an excellent reputation.  Many use the same company. Brambleberry is expensive though so may be why.  

Never purchased raw materials there.  Thank goodness. 

Also, buying in 10 lb or more helps greatly.  I wouldn’t have been able to make and sell soap at those prices. Would have had to change recipes for sure and save butters for other applications only.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 14, 2018)

Thankfully I am only making for family and friends as I'm not paying £180+ to run tests an such on my soap base just to sell legally here in the UK but that may change down the line at some point once I graduate from my hand and foot reflexology classes as well as holistic back pain management course as well . there are only a few reputable sellers I know of here in the UK hopefully as time goes on I'll find a cheaper reputable seller. I already have loads of stuff in my house including 4-5 years worth of xmas bath and body products I don't use for one reason or another I have no clue where I would put 10lb boxes of shea and cocoa butters.. to be fair tho the house would prob smell really nice due to the cocoa butter lol.

Down side it seems a lot of places say soap making supplies but only have M&P bases and colours/ fragrance.


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## penelopejane (Jul 15, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> It's a metal try I believe it's stainless steel (unsure if its coated) under my silicon mold I put in under my molds when I come to unmolding them


I would be really careful about putting soap on metal at anytime during cure. DOS is one of the horrible results of using metal. 

I have not seen coated SS.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> I would be really careful about putting soap on metal at anytime during cure. DOS is one of the horrible results of using metal.
> 
> I have not seen coated SS.


What is DOS?


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## cmzaha (Jul 15, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> cmzaha yes I want a moisturizing bar but I all so need it to clean really as sometimes my husband and me have very oily skin. I know it seems daft having high CO in my soap but I like CO and have never felt like it was to drying. I have read up a bit more on Barbassu oil and concluded that I will not be using it as part of my soap making right now at the present time.


Not to sound like a broken record, but you cannot get a high cleansing and a soap you think is moisturizing in the same bar, so maybe you need to design two soaps. To make CO not drying at 30% your would need to up superfat, which will defeat the purpose of a highly cleansing soap. For a gentle soap use 10-15% CO, PKO or Babassu. 

As Shunt mentioned I have never paid such high prices as you mention and have been making and selling for approx 9 yrs. I also would not be able to make and sell if I paid such high prices for butters and oils. If you have doubts about castor oil in soap try making a single oil castor soap and see how it is.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 15, 2018)

DOS is dreaded orange spots. Rancidity.  Generally caused by short shelf oils, metals etc.....


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

cmzaha, right ok so it can't be high cleansing and avg to high moisturizing but now i'm confused most soap recipes in my new books that are  supposedly highly moisturizing run on soapcalc are over 22+ (round 24-27) when it comes to cleaning and around 50+ on moisture how can it be moisturizing if it is high in cleansing?

and thanks shunt2011 had no clue what DOS was!


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## shunt2011 (Jul 15, 2018)

And once again, soap is not moisturizing,  just less cleansing.  It’s a wash off product.  If you have a lot of CO, it’s going to strip the oils from your skin.  SF trying to counteract the cleansing can help but if too high may be a crap bar of soap due to too much free oils. And could be a cause of DOS.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

then how do so many places get away with selling natural lye based soaps that are labeled as highly moisturizing when they are not then?


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Jul 15, 2018)

I am gonna be shooting in the dark here but is probably because everyone and their mother has seen the Dove comercial that claims it is moiturizing and has i dont know how much cream. It is embeded in everyones minds that a soap can be moistourizing.

You had that idea, i had that idea, a lot of people that make soaps have that idea. 

Also, a soap will clean, doesnt matter what the clensing number says. Because its soap, and a soap cleans! But as everyone is saying some are more striping that others.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

Makes more sense once put that way Alfa_Lazcares. Still tho if it does not moisturize it should not be labeled as such. Also I tried dove soap it makes me itch and drys my skin and I tried a competitor that was supposed be drying and all that was better for me then dove. They have dove baby products tried on my daughter 10 mins after getting out of the bathbher skin was red dove sucks.

Plus note I'm now additced to making soap and breeding/hatching chickens lol.


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## artemis (Jul 15, 2018)

[QUOTE="lindakschickens, post: 709165, member:  Still tho if it does not moisturize it should not be labeled as such. [/QUOTE]

It should also not be labeled as "acne curing" or anything like that, but we've probably all seen such soaps on Etsy and at markets. There are labeling rules. Not everyone cares to find out what they are. Not everyone who knows what they are cares to follow them.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

artemis said:


> [QUOTE="lindakschickens, post: 709165, member:  Still tho if it does not moisturize it should not be labeled as such.



It should also not be labeled as "acne curing" or anything like that, but we've probably all seen such soaps on Etsy and at markets. There are labeling rules. Not everyone cares to find out what they are. Not everyone who knows what they are cares to follow them.[/QUOTE]
True to many say acne cure/solver etc. saying items in it are know to help that is one thing but saying it will cure/solve etc is annoying I have tried so many because of that labeling  and I have gotten my money back because I raised hell over it. Not fun tho.

Have a recipe for pumpkin soap anyone ever try making soap with pumpkin puree?? Or fresh tomatoes or fresh carrot juice for that matter.


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## artemis (Jul 15, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> True to many say acne cure/solver etc. saying items in it are know to help that is one thing but saying it will cure/solve etc is annoying



Over here, saying it cures vs saying it "contains thing that are known to..." Is the same thing as far as labeling rules are concerned.



lindakschickens said:


> Have a recipe for pumpkin soap anyone ever try making soap with pumpkin puree?? Or fresh tomatoes or fresh carrot juice for that matter.



Lots of people have tried any number of purees and juices in soap. A quick search should find many ideas. Or you could start a new thread asking for pumpkin-specific thoughts and ideas.


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## Iluminameluna (Jul 15, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> www.Soaping[/URL] 101.com YouTube videos. The host has a good voice and covers just about EVERY thing you wanted to know about making soap and using additives.
> My favorite sections are the ones called, Can You Soap With It? She makes beet soap, cucumber and aloe FROM SCRATCH.
> There's also a post in this forum from a soap mallet that did a plethora of single-oil soaps to show how each soap behaves after a prolonged curing time. Example: I made an 80% olive oil (virgin was all I had) that was good only after an 8 month cure. Best after a year! And only because I didn't use some of it until then. It was 15% CO and 5% castor. Thin lather but really mild.
> One last thing. There's also a site, for which I can't remember whose or the url, that speaks to the numbers and what they really mean on a soap/lye calculator.
> If/when I remember or find the sites and posts that I've mentioned, I'll come back and post them here.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

artemis said:


> Over here, saying it cures vs saying it "contains thing that are known to..." Is the same thing as far as labeling rules are concerned.
> 
> Lots of people have tried any number of purees and juices in soap. A quick search should find many ideas. Or you could start a new thread asking for pumpkin-specific thoughts and ideas.



Really? I though as long as you did not claim that your soap cures,treats, prevents etc (what ever issue) even if you listed background info on the products in your soap as long as you clearly state that the background info was on the products used in your soap was for informational purposes only and that your soap is not meant to cure,treat, prevent etc and your product is used to cleanse your skin/hair you were covered


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## Iluminameluna (Jul 15, 2018)

Here is the site where they do single-oil soap experiments. It continues a year later. It's VERY thorough!
Somehow I didn't paste this link:
http://alchemyandashes.blogspot.com/2013/03/single-oil-soap-experiment-phase-one.html?m=1
Edited to add the following:
http://soapcalc.net/info/soapqualities.asp
Very thorough but slightly technical explanations for the different character values for oils used in soaps.
Edited again to add the following:
http://www.soap-making-resource.com/saponification-table.html
Slightly less technical than the above but also has links to more info, including a soap recipe with explanations every step of the way.
Wishing all a good soaping day!


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

Iluminameluna said:


> Here is the site where they do single-oil soap experiments. It continues a year later. It's VERY thorough!
> Edited to add the following:
> http://soapcalc.net/info/soapqualities.asp
> Very thorough but slightly technical explanations for the different character values for oils used in soaps.
> ...


 Thank you


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## artemis (Jul 15, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> Really? I though as long as you did not claim that your soap cures,treats, prevents etc (what ever issue) even if you listed background info on the products in your soap as long as you clearly state that the background info was on the products used in your soap was for informational purposes only and that your soap is not meant to cure,treat, prevent etc and your product is used to cleanse your skin/hair you were covered


From what I understand you can't say, "contains (essential oil) which is known to benefit (some ailment)." And you also can't say, "contains (essential oil) and here's a link to information about it's benefits." But that's here in the U.S. More experienced soapers who sell may weigh in. 

Actually,  I recommend searching on the subject, instead. There have been several very interesting threads about labeling and health claims and how to avoid getting oneself into trouble.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

I have searched on the subject for here in the UK but seems like I'm either looking in the wrong place or I have a better chance of finding a Ghost chili and dying from eating it. but would have though saying contains (essential oil) here is a link to more information on it and how it's obtained etc.

I will search here on the subject as I find interesting. Prob another reason why I can't be bothered to sell lol.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 15, 2018)

No claims can be made. Even listing what they may be good for isn’t allowed.  Read Marie Gales book on labeling.  Very informative. Though there are many who still makes claims, either because they don’t know or don’t care. I se it all the time


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> No claims can be made. Even listing what they may be good for isn’t allowed.  Read Marie Gales book on labeling.  Very informative. Though there are many who still makes claims, either because they don’t know or don’t care. I se it all the time


Ok so let me get this right even if you don't make a claim and you don't personally list benefits but you link a outside source to more info about a item that some how still makes you look like your claiming and or stating benefits even when your not? Bit dumb to me personally but then again I'm a idiot who believed that harsh acne products were good because of the so called acne fighting benefits of their chemicals which never worked for me.


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## artemis (Jul 15, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> Bit dumb to me personally ...



Well, linking to a source that says "This essential oil will cure this ailment" is the same as you saying it does. If you didn't want people to think it was going to cure X ailment, you would even include the link. "I'm not SAYING it will cure your ailment but here's information from my handpicked source that says it will. Draw your own conclusions."


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

artemis said:


> Well, linking to a source that says "This essential oil will cure this ailment" is the same as you saying it does. If you didn't want people to think it was going to cure X ailment, you would even include the link. "I'm not SAYING it will cure your ailment but here's information from my handpicked source that says it will. Draw your own conclusions."


1 issue with that grant it some do but others spend a long time looking for a reliable thorough source(s) of information for certain items like essential oils or butters etc. I personally like the sources that list pro's and con's of any given item etc. I have also seen sources say there are claims that x item does so and so and research from x places show x results and links those studies or what have you. I find those more except able then someone saying this will do this 100% etc etc. Again I would not say a seller/maker 100% claims or agrees item(s) does do x specially if the outside link also links other sources and research to say ya or nay one way or the other. A lot of sellers don't list information resources but lots of people do look up products and can and do get inaccurate info and buy a product based on it. I guess I am one of those people that much prefer to have informed buyers.

I did find a 18 page guidance on essential oils in cosmetics but I could see any place where you can't list the benefits (or so called) of essential oil(s). I did contact a place that offer's testing and such so you can sell your homemade soaps and what not and they answered a labeling question of mine so hopefully for UK people who want to sell I may or may not be able to give a answer.


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## artemis (Jul 15, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> 1 issue with that grant it some do but others spend a long time looking for a reliable thorough source(s) of information for certain items like essential oils or butters etc.



Right, but as a buyer, I am getting only the information from the person who has a vested interest in giving me information that promotes their particular product. More, though, it is still the same thing as making a claim about the product curing something, which is the issue we were discussing. That is the reason I was giving for why you can't do that.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 15, 2018)

artemis said:


> Right, but as a buyer, I am getting only the information from the person who has a vested interest in giving me information that promotes their particular product. More, though, it is still the same thing as making a claim about the product curing something, which is the issue we were discussing. That is the reason I was giving for why you can't do that.


Yes I get that's what you we're doing and I was giving my veiw on it Also i would say more like promotes a specific item in a particular product and not the whole product itself unless that source promotes the product with out vaild testing etc. While sellers do link sources that praise x items not everyone does. That's like sellers who link sources that promote their products with out vaild testing some do some don't. Again disclaimers and information source(s) and other references etc should not automatically make you guilty of trying to claim your product or single item in you products does x,y and z. There are lots of veiw points I personally find it overly ridge I get both buyers and sellers need protection but I personally find it odd talking about essential oil benefits are basically placed in a choke hold but heavy chemicals are boasted about.


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## earlene (Jul 15, 2018)

I don't know the labeling rules in the UK.  So I looked up some links for your area.  You'll have to do the in-depth research yourself, or maybe someone here from the UK can give you more detail.

https://www.gov.uk/product-labelling-the-law

https://www.export.gov/article?id=United-Kingdom-Labeling-Marking-Requirements

https://www.mariegale.com/international-labeling-laws/

https://www.wholesalehandmadesoap.co.uk/labelling/

http://www.soapmakingmagazine.co.uk/blog/index.php/2017/01/30/sell-products-legally/

What I did notice is that in the US, we are apparently more lenient in regards to soap than many other countries, especially those in the European Union.  So, that being the case, I would suspect that if you want to assume that if it's not allowed in the US, then it's probably not allowed in the UK, it seems like a safe bet.

The fact that some people still break the rules doesn't mean the rules don't exist.  It only means they haven't been caught.  Some do get caught, then they have to face the consequences.  Why go through that?


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## cmzaha (Jul 16, 2018)

Either they do not know what they are doing or just using it as a selling ploy. Most use it as a selling ploy. Lotion is moisturizing soap cleans and washes away. Another point about not highly superfatting is the fact it is hard on the plumbing.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

Earlene those links are helpful and wish those would have been easier to find for me the first time because I ended up having to contact a company that offers testing on soaps and such so you can legally sell them they then sent me a more simplified explanation on labeling and how to, I'll see if I can link it (the guide or whatever they called it) once I find that email reply.

Yes in the USA  rules over cosmetics and drugs exist for a reason only issue I have is it seems like they can't make up their mind on how to approach essential oils.  Like aromatherapy under the law, how “aromatherapy” products are regulated depends mainly on how they are intended to be used.  So my walk away from that is I just say it smells good I'll be ok with the law. If a cosmetic has essential oil in it but you say it's only to make you smell nice or "aromatherapy" and that it smells good your fine. To me it also reads like if I want to claim benefits of a essential oil you will have to have it tested as a cosmetic and drug and then you'll be fine by the sound of it. Also doesn’t have regulations defining “natural” or “organic” for cosmetics and all cosmetic products and ingredients must meet the same safety requirement, regardless of their source. So this now leaves it open for people to claim something is natural or organic even if it might not be. But that's my take away on it.

In the UK I still can't find a single thing on listing essential oil benefits I  have contact CTPA ( The Cosmetic, Toiletry and Perfumery Association) as I believe they would be in a much better position to tell me basically what,when, who, where and why on this issue.

cmzaha so if it's a selling ploy how and why do people "legally" sell essential oils and butters and list benefits with out being charged on a daily basis? also I have tried lotions more cleansing then soap which was really odd and left a fire red rash (thanks dove) and soaps that have left my skin feeling soft and moisturized or is that how a mind messes with you? Also how is not highly superfatting hard on plumbing?

But my overall take away thus far 1 soap making is hard specially if you have not found a good soapcalc 2 trying to sell your products legally is a pain depending where you are and 3 essential oil rules and regulations need be simplified and more straight forward, concise and depending where you are easier to find. 

But those issues aside I find it fun making soap. Maybe once I get the rules on everything over here and how it's done I'm sure it will be easier if I decided to sell on a small soap on a small scale i'm not a big scale thinker.

I am already  planning my next soaps tho and I will be buying more butters etc. Aloe butter is nice but I'm thinking I might get away with using aloe juice and some other liquid. 

I'm going to try a lard,coconut,castor oil,shea butter or coco butter soap with rose petal powder and a light rose fragrance oil.


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## artemis (Jul 16, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> cmzaha so if it's a selling ploy how and why do people "legally" sell essential oils and butters and list benefits with out being charged on a daily basis?



My guess would be man-power. Have you seen the gazillion handmade soap sellers on Etsy alone? They do check up on people, though. Also, they don't storm in and charge you and cart you away. It starts with letters and a visit and explanations for how to bring your business into compliance. They aren't aiming to put people out of business, just to get them to operate within the law. There's a good article floating around here somewhere written by a seller who had this happen.

Edit: I found the article: https://www.soapqueen.com/business/a-surprise-visit-from-the-fda/


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

artemis said:


> My guess would be man-power. Have you seen the gazillion handmade soap sellers on Etsy alone? They do check up on people, though. Also, they don't storm in and charge you and cart you away. It starts with letters and a visit and explanations for how to bring your business into compliance. They aren't aiming to put people out of business, just to get them to operate within the law. There's a good article floating around here somewhere written by a seller who had this happen.
> 
> Edit: I found the article: https://www.soapqueen.com/business/a-surprise-visit-from-the-fda/


Thanks for the link I'll read it for sure. Some sellers tho should be carted off. Still tho they need to have more concise info and all that.

I personally think the FDA tho wants to make it harder for people seeking to make and/or buy more natural products and label them. for example your soap smells like medicine and you state it smell like this because of x,y,z causing this smell and some one from the FDA see's  that and goes oh well we can't have them saying it smells like medicine cuz it would be medicine and we can't have that, then and then proceeds to send letter(s) and then eventually show up on your doorstep and be a thorn in you side for how ever long and may or may not give you a fine etc.  From what I gather they are more prone to go after smaller makers then larger ones.

Kinda sad tho push harsh chemical cosmetics with loads of claims and higher risks of skin sensitivities but freak out over how  items with essential oils are labeled etc. 

I will admit I'm quite curious how this issue works in the UK tho.  Still feel bad for the people in the USA dealing with the FDA and hope at some point it does change to some extant for the better over essential oils labeling etc.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 16, 2018)

I have no problem with the labeling requirements.  If you make soap and use essential oils, you can't guarantee anything survives the saponification process.  So why would you make any medical claims, health claims etc.....The FDA doesn't search out small business, they go after big business (DoTerra, Young Living etc....they have been sited).   Chances are low that they would find you but do you want to take that chance.  I think a lot of time someone files a claim and then they get interested.  However, I'm not willing to go there.  Yes, I see it quite often and just shake my head.  I'm honest with my customers, I also try to educate them on the all natural, my soap will cure this or treat that......Not worth it.  I make my items because I enjoy it and take pride in it and it's good.  I follow the rules and tell the truth.

I've had many customers tell me my products have helped with this or that, and that's awesome.  

Our requirements in the US are much less strict then many countries.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

It depends on requirements tho don't it. You can say certain words or phrases if you will or risk fda getting involved. Like a store here touts that are more natural then what you find else were one of their products info page says this " There’s mineral rich kaolin to nourish, honey for its antibacterial properties, and we used just the right amount of peppermint oil to stimulate blood cells under the surface of your skin and leave your skin looking bright and refreshed." From the way I understand what you all are saying this would be a issue with the FDA.
Another product reads " with enzymic and brightening fresh apple juice and toning green tea. Witch hazel plays no tricks with its antibacterial and astringent gifts. Sicilian lemon and Brazilian orange oils help to brighten the skin" this to seems like it would fall a foul or am I wrong.


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## BrewerGeorge (Jul 16, 2018)

Lye destroys almost everything, or at the very least changes it completely.

You've got to get past this idea that ANYTHING - even the base oils themselves - is going to be the same after it's exposed to the lye.  That's how you go from skin-nourishing coconut oil to harsh, stripping sodium cocoate.  

Your witch hazel, green tea, apple, lemon, etc don't make it out the other side.

With a few well known exceptions such as sugar for bubbles, salt for hardness, or chelators, almost everything non-fat added to soap is "label appeal" for the gullible.  There's nothing wrong with giving people what they want to buy as long as you don't make false claims (which is the genesis of the labeling regulations) but there is no point in fooling yourself in soaps you make for your own use, either.


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## earlene (Jul 16, 2018)

As I am sure you are probably aware, in order for regulations to go into effect in any country or union of countries, the lawmakers have to agree.  Before that, they review information from expert sources.  The expert sources have to have some sort of consensus.  In some cases, hearing or feedback is sought from the public or the affected parties, such as happened in the US when we were asked to give feedback on what 'natural' means.  In any case, it is not an easy or even forthright process.  It takes time, a lot of effort and real concern for the welfare of the consumer; and it can also be a balancing act.  There's a whole lot more to it than that, but I'm long-winded enough as it is.

Regarding what is 'natural' or even 'organic' in the US, these are meaningless words in the arena of cosmetics and soaps.  The FDA does NOT have definitions for them (reference) so labeling something natural or organic may be misleading, in that even the FDA recognizes 'natural' means something different to different people.  And 'organic' is regulated by the USDA.  So the label might state 'made with organic' whatever-ingredient, which is probably fine, but if the manufacturer claims '100% organic' it's the USDA who regulates that part of the labeling.  The FDA still regulates the label as it pertains to the product's intended use and what it qualifies as by FDA definitions.  Some soaps qualify as cosmetics and some qualify as drugs, which have stricter labeling requirements.

Regarding the soap (if it is a soap) in your post #104 in this thread:  If that was sold in the US, it would qualify as a cosmetic because of the claims.  Therefore, it would have to adhere to cosmetic regulations in the US if it were sold in the US.  As long as the seller follows the rules for labeling the soap as a cosmetic, then they should be okay.

If they claim a cure or a psychological benefit or that the soap is for treating a medical condition, then it is a drug, and the drug regulations apply. (reference)


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

BrewerGeorge I was wondering what they call lye and coconut oil cheers! true essential oil does change once interacting with lye (which now I wish I had  money so I can see how it does change etc). In seeing how as you say those items don't make it out the other side then aint that basically making a false claim on the part the seller?

earlene I hope it does change. But both of the items I talked about in post #104 are face masks and are claimed to help with acne,inflamed skin, cools it (hope so the stuff is suppose to be kept in the fricken fridge) and makes your skin baby soft and a few other things.

I also just made another soap, just used the rest of my coco butter and shea butter as well as the little bit of aloe butter I had left weight it as coconut oil. also added 100% pure rose petal powder and some rose fragrance oil.
Apricot Kernel Oil. 80g
Castor Oil. 46g
Cocoa Butter. 106g.
Coconut Oil. 100g.
Lard. 126g.
Shea Butter. 90g
Water 108.24g
Milk 100g.
Lye. 75.32
also added about 1  teaspoon of sugar.
2 tablespoon rose petal powder
1 tablespoon rose fragrance oil.

Hardness 44
Cleansing  12
Conditioning  52
Bubbly  20
Creamy  39
Iodine  54
INS  150

I will say I expected to move fast but OMG this stuff set up so fricken fast I had barely made it putting into 6 mold and had more left over so I just plopped in a small plastic microwave plate gonna re batch it as it literally was almost impossible to get out of the container and off the spatula . It looks like mud and clay and smells like roses... Ok it really looks like a cow patty minus the undigested  grass LOL.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 16, 2018)

Florals move like crazy most times.  Also depends on temp.   I do a honeysuckle rose that I separate, 2 colors then stir in my Fragrance and pour, as there's little time to do anything else.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> Florals move like crazy most times.  Also depends on temp.   I do a honeysuckle rose that I separate, 2 colors then stir in my Fragrance and pour, as there's little time to do anything else.


Oh that sounds like a wonderful combo.

I have a soap recipe for a castile- brine soap it calls for pure olive oil I assume any olive oil will do like olive pomance oil.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 16, 2018)

Some say Pomace can move a little faster. I've only used it a time or two years ago.   I just use regular olive oil.  Not the fancy stuff...that I use to cook with.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

Good to know. I'll buy the cheaper olive oil this time round.


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## penelopejane (Jul 16, 2018)

In Australia the ACCC says a soap is a cosmetic and you can say:
Cosmetics:
Soothes dry skin 
Covers pimples 
Smooths wrinkles

You come under therapeutic goods laws if you say:
Therapeutic goods:
Relieves rashes
Heals pimples
Aids in repair of skin tissue

https://www.productsafety.gov.au/sy...labelling on cosmetics - Supplier guide_0.pdf


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## penelopejane (Jul 16, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> Oh that sounds like a wonderful combo.
> 
> I have a soap recipe for a castile- brine soap it calls for pure olive oil I assume any olive oil will do like olive pomance oil.



Many people believe that the harsh chemical used to extract the oils to make pomace oil transfer to the soap it produces. 
I would not use pomace for soap. 
I would not buy soap that has unspecified “olive oil” in it because some people (not in Australia because pomace isn’t easily available here) use it interchangeably.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

penelopejane thank you for posting the info for Australia I know that will more then likely help ppl like me in Australia cheers. 

I can see using pomace olive oil in soap if that is what you can get. I'm going to be looking to see if I can getter then pomace for not to much more money. but you did just state a valid possible issue with pomace


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## penelopejane (Jul 16, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> penelopejane thank you for posting the info for Australia I know that will more then likely help ppl like me in Australia cheers.


 
I think Oz has come into line with the US & UK.
I think you too can legally use the phrases listed above to describe cosmetics replacing the “cures eczema” etc claims.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

Well I will tell y'all now I have a great husband why is that.. Well I managed to find some soap making stuff a little cheaper via ebay (some online soap retailers have ebay shops to that I did not know about) and that worked out cheaper and he bought me the lot including 10 kg in total of cocoa butter and shea butter brought them down to no more then $9 a kg (2.4lbs)  so round $3.75 per 1.2lbs roughly for both not bad just need to know where to look and when to jump on it like a starving man on a Christmas ham lol. family is going to have loads of handmade soap this year for Christmas.

I do have a father in law who does not use deodorant and I was wondering if you good people could think of anything and everything I could dump in a batch of soap that might make a more pleasant smell linger for a bit I know that sounds horrible of me but I don't know how my mother in law shares the same bed.. I tell you what tho that is love lol


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## amd (Jul 16, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> I do have a father in law who does not use deodorant and I was wondering if you good people could think of anything and everything I could dump in a batch of soap that might make a more pleasant smell linger for a bit I know that sounds horrible of me but I don't know how my mother in law shares the same bed.. I tell you what tho that is love lol



Love indeed. I too have a father in law who doesn't seem to know where the deoderant aisle is. I don't think you'll get him completely odor free, but I have used baking soda and bentonite clay in a soap that made for my father in law. I don't see him often enough to know if the soap helps the BO problem, but he likes it enough to request more of it!


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

amd said:


> Love indeed. I too have a father in law who doesn't seem to know where the deoderant aisle is. I don't think you'll get him completely odor free, but I have used baking soda and bentonite clay in a soap that made for my father in law. I don't see him often enough to know if the soap helps the BO problem, but he likes it enough to request more of it!


I assume the baking soda and clay are added at light trace stage?


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## earlene (Jul 16, 2018)

Sadly, no matter how clean one gets with soap, once a smelly sweat starts, it stays on the skin until washed again.  Depending on how your FIL eats (certain foods create more offensive odors) and what kind of work he does and how hard he works or plays, and of course, how often he bathes thoroughly, sweat is going to happen.  You can have the strongest longest lasting fragrance in your soap, some that do linger on the skin, but no fragrance eliminates body odors.  They just add another layer of odor.  A discerning nose can smell the layers of odors.  Maybe you MIL has a less discerning nose and that's how she handles the BO.  Or maybe she cooks with ingredients that bring out stronger BO.  Or maybe he has a medical condition that contributes to the body odor and soap is simply not the answer.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

earlene said:


> Sadly, no matter how clean one gets with soap, once a smelly sweat starts, it stays on the skin until washed again.  Depending on how your FIL eats (certain foods create more offensive odors) and what kind of work he does and how hard he works or plays, and of course, how often he bathes thoroughly, sweat is going to happen.  You can have the strongest longest lasting fragrance in your soap, some that do linger on the skin, but no fragrance eliminates body odors.  They just add another layer of odor.  A discerning nose can smell the layers of odors.  Maybe you MIL has a less discerning nose and that's how she handles the BO.  Or maybe she cooks with ingredients that bring out stronger BO.  Or maybe he has a medical condition that contributes to the body odor and soap is simply not the answer.


Oh no she smells him even asks us if we get him smellys (soaps) as gifts to get strong fragrance ones. I agree work plays a big role which he is retired so he does woodworking, so does diet but this is a typical Englishman who eats typical English foods that are quite frankly bland as can be and needs salt to the point you think you would dehydrate just eating the mount. But anything to remotely combat smell is a plus I just wonder if the soap he normally uses is cleansing enough I know that might not make sense but he can smell the same sometimes only a hr out of the bath (lived with them a few months in the spring a few years back before me and the hubby married). Seriously tho MIL must love him to bits as I throw the hubby out of the room when he stinks lol mean I know


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## SudsanSoaps (Jul 16, 2018)

Maybe it’s his deodorant. I’ve heard that some really stink.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 16, 2018)

SudsanSoaps said:


> Maybe it’s his deodorant. I’ve heard that some really stink.


he don't wear it.. seriously I think he thinks that don't exist.

sage powder,sandalwood powder and powdered palo santo in soap anyone try this?


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## artemis (Jul 18, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> sage powder,sandalwood powder and powdered palo santo in soap anyone try this?


This is just a small suggestion: when you have a new question and haven't found an answer through searching, start a new thread. By now, the only people reading this are those of us who participated in this conversation. It will reach a wider audience if you start a new one. 

I don't know about Palo Santo, but sage powder and sandalwood powder have been used by someone here. I'm sure they would turn up in a search.


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## ElaineJones (Jul 19, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> well i have been at it 45min to a hr omg.. im buying a stick blender asap


I just did one where I mixed by hand for 35 minutes before I gave up and went with the the stick blender.  I wanted to see if it was worth it to not need to wash the stick blender.  It wasn't.


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## lindakschickens (Jul 19, 2018)

ElaineJones said:


> I just did one where I mixed by hand for 35 minutes before I gave up and went with the the stick blender.  I wanted to see if it was worth it to not need to wash the stick blender.  It wasn't.


I did just to see if I could make do without a stick blender but I can't after I was in a car crash 2 years go this month I have been unable to switch whisking between my right and left hand as I now have arthritis in my left hand due to the crash.


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## earlene (Jul 19, 2018)

It really depends on the formula.  There are a few in which I do not need a SB unless I want soap on a stick.


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## amd (Jul 28, 2018)

lindakschickens said:


> I assume the baking soda and clay are added at light trace stage?



Sorry, I just saw this. Actually I add both to the lye water and stir well, before adding to oils. Looking at my recipe, I see that I used 1 oz PPO of each.


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## nighttrain123 (Jul 30, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> No claims can be made. Even listing what they may be good for isn’t allowed.  Read Marie Gales book on labeling.  Very informative. Though there are many who still makes claims, either because they don’t know or don’t care. I se it all the time



I'm getting some non-soap cosmetic products ready to sell in the EU and all claims need some evidential basis.

These are cosmetic claims I am speaking about. Like deodorising or sun protection or reducing appearance of wrinkles.

Regulation 1223/2009 formally defines a cosmetic product:

" ‘cosmetic product’ means any substance or mixture intended to be placed in contact with the external parts of the human body (epidermis, hair system, nails, lips and external genital organs) or with the teeth and the mucous membranes of the oral cavity with a view exclusively or mainly to cleaning them, perfuming them, changing their appearance, protecting them, keeping them in good condition or correcting body odours;"

If you are making a claim which isn't covered by that definition then you aren't selling a cosmetic but something else, possibly a medicine.  Then other regulations will apply.


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