# Waiting on preservative for liquid soap...



## Em522 (Feb 2, 2014)

On my last order I forgot to add a preservative for liquid soap, can I go ahead and make the soap paste? It's my understanding that the preservative isn't really needed until dilution so if I don't dilute the paste my soap should be fine. Then when I get the preservative I can dilute? Just making sure before I waste time and supplies. Thanks!


----------



## Dahila (Feb 2, 2014)

What do u use for your liquid soap?


----------



## Em522 (Feb 2, 2014)

This will actually be my first time making liquid soap. I was planning on using Germall Plus


----------



## Dahila (Feb 2, 2014)

I add it to a lot of my lotions, you need a bit only and is very effective.   I also use Optiphen plus, and I am very happy with it.  you just have to add it in very low temperature


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 2, 2014)

I do not preserve my ls and have never had a problem with it. I do, however, preserve my cream soap with Germall Plus


----------



## whitetiger_0603 (Feb 3, 2014)

Yeah, I don't preserve my LS either, and for good reasons.  I will say that from what I've read about Optiphen, that's stuff is bad news. And most preservatives are best at lower pH's to begin with, so with LS being high on that scale, it's kind of counter productive. I do use an Eco Cert preservative, coupled with citric acid, for my home made conditioner and I've had lovely results from it. So I keep my conditioner as natural as possible, with very few synthetic additives, and thankfully, those are naturally derived to begin with. But if you really want a preservative, you add it at the dilution pase, which can take you a good while, depnding on how much of a stickelr you are to the right consistency...I'm pretty neurotic so I spend days tweaking it.


----------



## Em522 (Feb 4, 2014)

Thank you, everyone for your help. I know there is some disagreement on whether or not a preservative is necessary in liquid soap. I figured I would rather be safe then sorry since I am only making soap for myself and my mother and my batch will be around for a while.


----------



## Susie (Feb 4, 2014)

I use only 1 lb oil sized batches for 2 people.  It keeps fine for that length of time without preservative.  If you are really hesitant, you can always only dilute 1/4 of the batch at the time.  Store your unused paste in the freezer double bagged in 1/4 batch individual bags.  Just wait to add scent as you dilute, and it should not make your food smell like perfume.


----------



## new12soap (Feb 5, 2014)

I don't have a lot of experience with LS, but I as understand a "normal" dilution of soap doesn't generally need a preservative, but if you dilute down enough to use in a foamer bottle then it does need one.



Em522 said:


> Thank you, everyone for your help. I know there is some disagreement on whether or not a preservative is necessary in liquid soap. I figured I would rather be safe then sorry since I am only making soap for myself and my mother and my batch will be around for a while.


 
This. When in doubt, it is ALWAYS better to be safe!


----------



## Susie (Feb 9, 2014)

new12soap said:


> I don't have a lot of experience with LS, but I as understand a "normal" dilution of soap doesn't generally need a preservative, but if you dilute down enough to use in a foamer bottle then it does need one.
> 
> 
> 
> This. When in doubt, it is ALWAYS better to be safe!



I always agree with the being safe part!   I would NEVER tell anyone to risk their safety or anyone else's, ever!

However, some people have issues with preservatives for one reason or another.  I am allergic to many, many things.  And therefore, I try to keep my soaps as pure as possible.  I was actually trying to assure people who do not want to use preservatives that small batches hold fine without them.


----------



## Dahila (Feb 10, 2014)

whitetiger_0603 said:


> Yeah, I don't preserve my LS either, and for good reasons.  I will say that from what I've read about Optiphen, that's stuff is bad news. And most preservatives are best at lower pH's to begin with, so with LS being high on that scale, it's kind of counter productive. I do use an Eco Cert preservative, coupled with citric acid, for my home made conditioner and I've had lovely results from it. So I keep my conditioner as natural as possible, with very few synthetic additives, and thankfully, those are naturally derived to begin with. But if you really want a preservative, you add it at the dilution pase, which can take you a good while, depnding on how much of a stickelr you are to the right consistency...I'm pretty neurotic so I spend days tweaking it.



With all due respect;  Optiphen plus is a very good preservative and my lotions are awesome..


----------



## Lindy (Feb 10, 2014)

The reason LS does not require a preservative is that the pH is too high to be a nursery for bacteria, mold or fungus. With that said, you do need to do what is best for you. BTW the same goes for Cream Soap unless you are adding botanicals after the cook...

 ETA - After having cream soap develop mold, I no longer believe that LS & CS don't require a preservative.  I've just proven to myself that I've been wrong and they do need it.... :roll:


----------



## lady-of-4 (Feb 12, 2014)

Dahila said:


> With all due respect;  Optiphen plus is a very good preservative and my lotions are awesome..




Actually, the main preservative ingredient in Optiphen, Phenoxyethanol, is considered quite toxic.

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/2008/ucm116900.htm

While that's through ingestion, there are other articles with commentary that refer to it's toxicity, even through penetration of the integumentary system.

http://www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/732140/OPTIPHEN/

http://chemicaloftheday.squarespace.com/todays-chemical/2011/2/28/phenoxyethanol.html

http://www.truthinaging.com/ingredients/phenoxyethanol

There is only 1 article out the numerous hits of articles that is to the contrary, but it lists no date, so it may have very well been written before the FDA issued warning.       http://www.paulaschoice.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary/definition/phenoxyethanol

I beleive this is, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the preservative that many anti-vaccine folks have a major issue with.  Again, I'm unsure, as I don't follow that trend, and keep all my kids are well vaccinated.

This preservative is banned in Japan.

All in all, these are just  few of the many hit i received just by typing in either Optiphen, or it's main preservative ingredient, Phenoxyethanol.  I can only imagine what I'd get if i added specific terms such as 'dangers of' and 'toxicity' to narrow the search field.


----------



## new12soap (Feb 12, 2014)

The FDA link stated that it was specific to infants ingesting this combination of ingredients. It also stated that there had been ZERO reports of actual harm.

The rest of the links you site are not considered reliable sources of information.

The NIH states that even in acutely toxic doses this is not readily absorbed through skin, and when ingested it was all accounted for in the urine of the subject.

http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=31236

I am not stating that it's perfectly safe, or that it isn't, I am just saying that if anyone does find optiphen objectionable, then please do some research and choose another preservative.


----------



## Dahila (Feb 12, 2014)

Optiphen plus is different from optiphen nd I believe.  I feel that plus one is much safer that germall plus


----------



## lady-of-4 (Feb 12, 2014)

Dahila said:


> Optiphen plus is different from optiphen nd I believe.  I feel that plus one is much safer that germall plus



Nope, they're both the same.  They both have the same primary preservative ingredient.


Has anyone ever considered uaing all natural, or closer to natural preservative methods?    I don't understand the trend behind using something that is considered toxic, when there are much safer alternatives out there.  For instance, there are those who will swear by using extracts such as rosemary, tea tree, grapefruit seed and honeysuckle, the latter that I've actually seen in on the shelf products as a confirmed preservative, or honey.  Or even citric or ascorbic acids?   I understand there are those with reservations against all natural methods, but if you really think about it, there are plenty of commercial products on the shelf that use any combination of these items to preserve their products, and it seems, with much success.  And if still not wanting to go this route, has anyone looked into natrually derived preservatives that are EcoCert backed such a Vegecide from Ingredients to Die for, just to name 1 example of the many in this category?


----------



## new12soap (Feb 12, 2014)

rosemary oleoresin, grapefruit seed extract etc are not preservatives, they are anti-oxidants. Honey is not only not a preservative, it's food for all sorts of nasties once it is mixed with other ingredients. Put a little honey in some water and leave it on your counter for a week. I doubt you will need a microscope to see what's growing in it!

I suggest spending some time here http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/p/preservatives.html there is a lot of good information there, Susan is very good at separating fact from fiction and can quote the sources to back it up.

As for more "naturally derived" preservatives there are a number of them offered at several suppliers, if someone prefers that route just do the research to make sure you choose a product appropriate to the intended use.


----------



## Dahila (Feb 13, 2014)

there is not natural way to preserve products with water.  I agree with ^^^ If i was so much into "natural" I would at least test it, in two or three days there would be significant growth of bacteria, fungi, and whatever can grow there.  I make my lotion and soaps and everything for my own amusement, not selling and not going to.....
When I make eczema lotion for my granddaughter I am not going to risk it.   I am not going to put on my face anything without proper preservation.


----------



## Lindy (Feb 15, 2014)

The ingredient I don't like in Liquid Germall Plus is Dipropylene Glycol which is why I have moved to the powdered version.

 By the way after today I now agree with preserving liquid soap....:wink:


----------



## Em522 (Feb 15, 2014)

Lindy, I was confused until I read your other thread. It stinks that you have put in so much work on a soap that you can't trust now. You mentioned powdered germall plus? I didn't know there was a powdered version. Although looking back the listing was always very specific in saying LIQUID germall plus which wouldn't be necessary unless there was a powdered version. Talk about a duh! moment for me  where can you purchase the germall plus powder?


----------



## lady-of-4 (Feb 16, 2014)

Dahila said:


> there is not natural way to preserve products with water.  I agree with ^^^ If i was so much into "natural" I would at least test it, in two or three days there would be significant growth of bacteria, fungi, and whatever can grow there.  I make my lotion and soaps and everything for my own amusement, not selling and not going to.....
> When I make eczema lotion for my granddaughter I am not going to risk it.   I am not going to put on my face anything without proper preservation.




Dahlia, there are plenty of natural ways to preserve your soaps, if the right combination/concentration is used. 

 Catherine Failor, in her books for transparent and liquid soap making, illustrates several methods, but stresses that liquid soaps don't need a preservative because of their pH levels, along with the addtitives we used ie borax, alcohol, sugar, etc, for sequestering purposes.  Susan, of Swift Crafty monkey, also indicates that liquid soap doesn't need a preservative, citing it's high pH factor.  She does strees the absolute need of some type of preservative for other water based cosmetics, ie lotions and conditioners.  Anne Marie, of Soap Queen, also states that liquid soap doesn't need a preservative.

As for honey,  it is listed under many sources as a method of preservation in food and cosmetics.

Proven here:   http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081209125927.htm

And indicated in these articles, along with other natrual methods:  
http://www.naturalcosmeticnews.com/new-ingredients/the-most-popular-natural-preservatives-2/

http://yellowstaressentials.wordpress.com/2010/03/25/natural-preservatives-for-cosmetic-recipes/

http://naturalhealthezine.com/natural-preservatives-for-homemade-beauty-products/

As well as the attached abstract, that is listed as a resource in this blog: https://suite101.com/a/honey-as-a-natural-preservative-a62853 .   I have  second one, from the Asian Pacific Journal of Tropical Biomedicine, however, the article is 6 pages long, however, here is a summary of the abstract:   naturalhealthezine.com/natural-preservatives-for-homemade-beauty-products/.  I do have it saved to my comp, for anyone who would like to read the full context.  

As for there not being any other 'natural preservatives", Ingredients to Die for sells 2 natrually derived ingredients, and one being EcoCert.  i don't know about other suppliers, i'm pretty sure there are plenty that sell presrvatives like those, but i haven't searched.

Look, I understand that preservatives are a big debate in the cosmetic world, but it will always go back to personal preference of the formulator. But to say that the ONLY options are synthetics, and all natural doesn't work, is completely inaccurate, and definitely misleading to a new soap maker/cosmetic formulator.  Even FDA regulations on the matter say that so long as the method used works to their standards, when analyzed in a lab, then it is in fact, an effective preservative system.  So if someone uses all natural methods to preserve rather than synthetics, or even naturally derived, like I use in my conditioner, and their products test within standards, then who is anyone to say that it doens't work at all? 

View attachment Natural_Preservatives_original.pdf


----------



## Dahila (Feb 16, 2014)

thank you lady for a lot of links,  sorry but i do not believe in honey if it is not my honey,  Honey is awesome but before it gets to you it can be contaminated and usually is pasterized ,  beside i have contact allergy on it.  I am in Canada and I had not seen even one supplier who carry EcoCert.  I have no business, I do not sale my products, they are made for my use....I am not specialist by all means,  I am someone who loves to learn new tricks ) 
I add only Rosemary antioxidant to the soaps.  Someone else is waiting for preservative for her liquid soap.  Thanks for pdf attachment, will read


----------



## lady-of-4 (Feb 16, 2014)

Dahila said:


> thank you lady for a lot of links,  sorry but i do not believe in honey if it is not my honey,  Honey is awesome but before it gets to you it can be contaminated and usually is pasterized ,  beside i have contact allergy on it.  I am in Canada and I had not seen even one supplier who carry EcoCert.  I have no business, I do not sale my products, they are made for my use....I am not specialist by all means,  I am someone who loves to learn new tricks )
> I add only Rosemary antioxidant to the soaps.  Someone else is waiting for preservative for her liquid soap.  Thanks for pdf attachment, will read



I dont blame you on the ' not my honey part ' at all.  Raw, local honey is best hands down.  Sucks you have an allergy. It's soo tastey.  And I know it's not you waiting on the preservative.  

As for a supplier that carries EcoCert, start with the company I mentioned, Ingredients To Die For.  They do carry EcoCert products, though I'm unsure if they ship to Canada. It's doesn't hurt to look, as a starting point, however.


----------



## Dahila (Feb 17, 2014)

lady-of-4 said:


> I dont blame you on the ' not my honey part ' at all.  Raw, local honey is best hands down.  Sucks you have an allergy. It's soo tastey.  And I know it's not you waiting on the preservative.
> 
> As for a supplier that carries EcoCert, start with the company I mentioned, Ingredients To Die For.  They do carry EcoCert products, though I'm unsure if they ship to Canada. It's doesn't hurt to look, as a starting point, however.


Lotioncraft carries it but shipping to Canada is kind of expensive, the custom duties and shipping,  I wait hoping that my supplier will carry it) Thanks

BTW I can have some honey in my coffee but not on my skin.   Local honey is the best, it is what I use in my sourdough bread.  When I see the bees on my flowers (especially on the ornamental garlic) I feel happy.   Even with my deadly allergy when sting by it,  I love to have them in my garden


----------



## lady-of-4 (Feb 17, 2014)

Dahila said:


> Lotioncraft carries it but shipping to Canada is kind of expensive, the custom duties and shipping,  I wait hoping that my supplier will carry it) Thanks
> 
> BTW I can have some honey in my coffee but not on my skin.   Local honey is the best, it is what I use in my sourdough bread.  When I see the bees on my flowers (especially on the ornamental garlic) I feel happy.   Even with my deadly allergy when sting by it,  I love to have them in my garden



That's good you found another supplier with it. If you like, I can do some digging for you to find more EcoCert. I know I came across one site, not LotionCraft, a few weeks ago when ordering my supplies, that carries it.


----------

