# Evaporated Goats Milk-Honey-Oats CP Soap



## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

After seeing how popular Oats-Honey-Milk soaps are, and surprisingly – expensive, I undertook formulating my own recipe after much research into available recipes in books and the web.  Asking people what characteristics they associate with the soap was critical.  I came up with:  Creamy, bubbly lather that is gentle, conditioning, and mild while simultaneously providing exfoliating properties.  Also important is the aroma associated with the soap which was as important if not the single most desirable aspect people were seeking.  

I made several off the shelf recipes, but couldn’t quite get everything I was looking for based on the feedback above.  So began my experiments.
Came up with the following after lots & lots of batches.  A clear winner from those selected to test.


I also used this as an excuse to try evaporated goats milk over the fresh or powdered variety.  David Fisher ([ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCI4i2vHPdM&feature=fvsr[/ame]) and Anne Watson (Milk Soapmking ISBN 978-0-938497-45-5) were my top resources.

A fun recipe.  The butters make it a little pricey, but well worth it.

Coconut 	                12.2 oz 	[25.5%]  76°
Olive 	                10.8 oz	[22.6%] Refined A if Possible
Palm	                  9.0 oz	[18.9%]
Almond, Sweet	  6.8 oz	[14.2%]
Castor	                  2.7 oz	[5.7%]
Avocado Butter            2.3 oz	[4.7%]  the magic ingredient (Shhhhh...secret)
Shea Butter	  2.3 oz	[4.7%]  Unrefined adds an aroma
Steric Acid	                  1.8 oz	[3.8%] Melt with Butters/hard oils

Lye	                  6.6 oz     [Run through your own calc]
Water	                  8.0 oz     [Distilled]
Evap GM                      8.0 oz     [Canned double strentgh]

All in Ounces
FO	                 2.4	Add @Trace, I use NG OHM FO
Vitamin E	                 0.5	Add @Trace, nice on skin
Honey Pwd	                 0.6	Add to Oils, Stick Blend
Honey Raw                  0.9	Add @Trace
Oats	                 4.0	Add @ Trace, No Quick Cook
Titanium Dioxide          0.4	Add to Oils, stick blend
Sodium Lactate            1.0          Needed more firmness

Likely due to the Palm, it traces rather quickly with the Stickblender - Beware.  I recommend Bursts combined with Hand Stirring.

Most importaint - *Mix the lye with the water EXTREMELY CAREFULLY*.  This is a double strentgh Lye solution - Goggles, gloves, and rubber apron, long sleeves are a MUST.  Takes a little longer to fully dissolve.  

Add the Goats Milk when you add the lye to the oils.

Try to have both the oils and the Lye solution between 100-110°F before mixing.  Due to the Honey Sugars and the Milk Fats reacting with the Lye, the gel stage gets very warm - don't insulate your molds, it's not needed.

Honey Powder?  I have to admit - amazing stuff.  Adds a great honey aroma to the blend much more so than Raw honey alone.

Cut after 24 hrs, use after 3 weeks (pH confirmation of course).  ENJOY!


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## Deda (Mar 9, 2011)

Double strength lye? 

How do you pH test?


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## AmyW (Mar 9, 2011)

I'm too lazy to open up soap calc and run it but I'm confused at the "double strength lye" - is that a water discount or are you using twice as much lye as is needed for a particular superfat?


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

Double strength Lye - Becuase you don't mix the lye with the Milk in this method, you essentially "discount" the water by half to compensate for the volume of GM that is used.  Say, for example that a recipe calls for 16 ozs of water.  Becuase the Evaporated GM is double strength, you have to account for it or you'll get a mess.  So, divide the 16 by 2 (16/2) to get 8 ozs of water, and then you'll use 8 ozs of Evap GM in the recipe for a total of 16 ozs of fluid.   Because you mix the lye with half the normal amount of water, it's double strength.  It takes just a little while longer to dissolve the lye as it's more concentrated, and you might need to add a couple of Tbls of water while mixing to get all the NaOH.  I normally add a pinch of silk to my lye water - but not for this recipe.

Note:  I have already done the math for you in this recipe - don't adjust the liquid levels.


If you click on the link above from David Fisher, he does a great job of showing you exactly what I'm explaining.  Anne Watson describes the same in her book as well.

pH test for un-reacted lye!   I use one of two methods.  First method I use pH paper strips that have a range from 6-12 Color coded for different pH levels).  After a given recipe has cured for the desired time, I take a bar and use a small amount of water to dissolve some on the surface of the bar and use the paper for a measurement.  You can also dissolve about a gram of the soap in 50-100 ml of water and then dip the strip.  I won't use a soap that has a pH of >10 - let them cure a little longer.  8-10 is a good range, target 8.

The second method is to dissolve a small amount of soap (1.5g) in 100 ml  water and use a pH meter (Most people don't have this avaliable to them).  I zero the meter on the water first.

Hope this helps!


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## Deda (Mar 9, 2011)

That's what I questioned too, Amy.

I regularly soap with a 1:1 lye solution, the most water I ever use is 2:1 for a super fast accelerator.

If I read his recipe correct he's got 6.6 to 8 oz, hardly a double strength solution.

And your target 8 is flat wrong.  pH testing using strips is inaccurate and the potential for errors great.  

I know you'll understand if we ask you to remove dangerous and wrong information, especially since you've chosen to post in the tutorial thread.


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

Guys, I used the term double strength becuase several authors have done so, as well as David Fisher.  True, it's not actually double strength - sorry if that caused confusion.  I was trying to get across the methodology of incorporating and accounting for the double strength goats milk is all.  It makes great soap, was fun to use.  Just a little consideration has to be done to use it.

I use a pH meter and find it's very good for making a call on un-reacted lye.  I have a Duel Column Gas Chromograph as well as InfraRed Sprectrograph to correlate my determinations of unrected lye.  I'm a chemist, so these things are avaliable to me.  I'm sorry if that contradicts someone, and I'm certainly not trying to be rude.

The strip method is qualitative, not quantitative - but a good indication never the less.  It's used by the experts, and it works for me.  Highly documented in just about every soap making book and tutorial avaliable.  I personaly like a target of 8, rarely hit it - it's a target.  My GF and Mom have pretty sensitive skin, hence my personal target of 8.  The Books say between 8-10, and my personal experience has verified it.


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## Deda (Mar 9, 2011)

Perhaps you shouldn't come in here and word your posts like you are speaking to a room full of idiots.

Shall we call this 2.5?


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

The best way to test for un-reacted lye if you don't want to do a pH test is an acid Titration.  Not too hard, and if anybody wants to know how to do it - please PM me.


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

Honestly, It wasn't my intention to speak down to anyone!  Really!

I used terminology common in the books and from the experts.  I can't imagine any other way to put it.  I really don't see where I went amiss besides a little confusion on the Double Strength.  It's a nice recipe, and I really thought folks might want to give it a whirl.

Evap goats milk is fun, about the same as fresh really, and easy.

Please help me understand where I went wrong.


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

I tried to publish a nice soap recipe.  I thought that was what this forum was for - sharing ideas and experience.  I just had two independent collegues read my post.  Neither felt I was talking down or being rude in anyway.  In fact, they can't understand your reaction at all.  I'm personally perplexed.

So Please, help me understand where I went wrong - it isn't my desire to argue.  I like sharing with other soapers and learning from them.


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## BakingNana (Mar 9, 2011)

All the other stuff aside (thanks, Deda...you're right), do you really need the stearic or the lactate?  Seems like a pretty good recipe that would harden just fine.  I assume the TD is to lighten the bar color a bit; I'm not sure I'd use that either.  I know canned GM results in a darker bar than fresh milk (it does for me, at least).  I'm cheap....don't like to waste ingredients where they're not needed.  I also don't waste money on strips.  If the sucker doesn't zap and I am happy when I use it, it's good.  I've only seen a ph of 8 on a detergent bar (yuck), but maybe I just haven't run across one that low yet.


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

Ah the Steric and Latic.  After many attempts without them, either combined or seperately, the bars were a little soft.  That's fine, and some folks like them that way.  However, I decided to use them for more firmness when the "Exfoliating" characteristic feedback needed improvement.

I went two ways:  Added more oats, and then added the hardness additives.  Feedback was overwhelming with the steric and lactic - much highly preferred over the additional oats.  I even tried salt, but I find that while it sometimes helps intial hardness in the molds, overall it's okay and doesn't always work.

As with any recipe, your personal preferences will always dictate the desired characteristics.  This is simply the result after about 40 batches of tweaking and testing.  It is very popular, and so many people ask about the recipe.


Yes, the TD is for a whiter bar.  The milk and sugars can really do a number on the overall color, and I found that folks preferred a creamier, whiter bar. The words "Bowl of Oatmeal" came out more than once in testing.  I personally don't really like TD becuase it does seem to effect the lather negatively in most recipes I've used it with.  I try to use as little as possible.


I don't think I have ever actually hit "8" after 3 weeks on this recipe, but I'd like too!   I typically average slightly above 9 with this one.


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## Harlow (Mar 9, 2011)

> Ah the Steric and Latic. After many attempts without them, either combined or seperately, the bars were a little soft. That's fine, and some folks like them that way. However, I decided to use them for more firmness when the "Exfoliating" characteristic feedback needed improvement.



I do not think it is so much that people like softer soap, I think it is that 'most' people would not have used that much water to begin with and have had harder bars  from the get-go with-out the need for extra ingredients & 'many attempts.'


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

Apologies!  I reported that I average slightly greater than a "9" on this recipe.  I went through my records - here is what I actually got;

3 weeks = Avg 9.9 pH, _n_= 12
4 weeks = Avg 9.7 pH _n_= 12
5 weeks Avg 9.5 pH _n_= 17

No discernable drop after 6+ weeks.

Equipment: Oakton® Benchtop pH/Ion 2100 Meter, Calibration date 12/29/2010
Methodology: 1.5 g soap dissolved in 100 ml distilled water, Temp between 65-75°F, automatic temp calibration, Water Tare.


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

For most recipes, like this one, I typically start at a 32% water discount as a starting point.  I did back off on the fluid amount in a few batches, but beyond the faster hardening time, it didn't make much difference on the overall firmness of the bars after the final cure period.  I didn't want to eliminate too much of the GM if you know what I mean.  It was nice that I didn't lose any batches, and all were put to good use.  While some weren't as popular as others, they were all well liked.

I considered using Apricot seeds for more exfoliating, but never went that way.

In reality, I thought the amounts of Palm oil and Coconut should have been fine for a pretty firm bar, especially with the butters for firmness.  I think the Honey and superfatting played the larger role.  I go with 7% 
which i didn't include orginally.  Apologies.

From my records, it was the addition of the Avocado Butter that seemed to make the biggest impression on people.  I have no idea why.  I used Cupuaca butter intially, and shea.  It doesn't even seem like there is all that much in there, but people could tell the difference almost 100% time with and without it.


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## Deda (Mar 9, 2011)

Wow. And I make my soap with a little digi scale and whisk.  Not even a thermometer.  

I'm gobsmacked.  But my soap is good.

FWIW, DH used his pH meter on several batches about 8 years ago.  Basically it meant nada.  That soap was the right pH range and pretty much garbage.

Time's a good teacher.


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## carebear (Mar 9, 2011)

Soapy Bill said:
			
		

> For most recipes, like this one, I typically start at a 32% water discount as a starting point.


"Water discount" is a term that makes me twitch - since I don't know your starting point I cannot tell where the % discount off of this amounts leaves you.  

Can you tell us the concentration of your lye solution?


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## carebear (Mar 9, 2011)

even without lactic acid or stearic acid, that formula should have hardened up very nicely - though with 25%ish olive oil this can take considerable time.  if it doesn't, consider that your measurements may be off, your olive oil could be aldulterated, or your expectations not realistic.  (remember, commercial soaps are made differently, and the hardness and lastingness reflects this).

a 7% lye discount shouldn't have impacted it significantly

by the way, among our membership are more than a few with degrees in chemistry, and some have worked in the personal care product development field with major CPG companies and their suppliers.


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

Of note, I keep saying that I do experiments and it seems to come up.  It might be interesting to some what I'm talking about.  I use Design of Experiments (DOE) to optimize recipes.  I'm a geek that way, and it lets me adjust several variables at once instead of one variable at a time (The needle in the haystack way). 

It's why I take so much time to figure out what characteristics are going to be measured up front.  I use a software called Minitab, but excel works too (Minitab is expensive).

If you like to experiment, DOE is the way to go.  I used to be one of those "Tweak one thing at a time" kinda people - but that takes way too long.  As long as your "test" people are giving good feedback, it really makes things go faster.

So, sometimes you get some funky batches - it supposed to happen, but ultimately you zero in on what really makes a difference.  It helps to know which ingreidients are making the difference right away - otherwise you could be making a whole bunch of batches.

In terms of pH - I only really use it as an indicator as to if the soap is ready.  I just don't like using soap >10 (burns my skin) and let it cure a little longer.  pH isn't an indicator as to how good or bad a soap recipe is - just it's akalinity or essentially the un-reacted lye.

The default value for water is 38 percent on SoapCalc, or water weighs 38 percent of the weight of the oil used Which you know. This is the percentage for soap when I start a new recipe. I also use the 38 percent of water when I  make a batch of soap that will have a fragrance or essential oil in it I haven't used before to account for any acceleration of trace. I usually back down to 32% of oils after some time and experience with a given recipe.   Hope that answers your question.

Carebear - I'm pretty careful with the measurements.  I'm glad to see a few chemists around.  Love to talk with them about a few new additives out there.   I've been making homemade soaps for about 15 years.  I make about 10-25 lbs of soap per week.  I pretty much just give it away as it's just a hobby for me.  You're right, with the Oils and butters, it should have been fine - and it was.  SoalpCalc predicted a "41" which is pretty decent IMO and I'd say that's pretty close without the additives.  I decidied to make it firmer for the exfoliation and no other reason.  You'll notice that the amounts of Steric and Latic aren't really significant.  Using the firmness additives is purely a matter of personal preference.  BUT - if you take out the Steric, re-calc becuase I have accounted for it with the lye.


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

While we are discussing it, I'd love to know what you think about the Avaocado Butter.  It was the number 1 variable in terms of several of the output factors (Soap Characteristics).

I haven't used it a ton in recipes and was shocked at what it did for appeal and acceptance.  I have tried it in other recipes, but no reaction like in this one.

Has anybody got some ideas as to why it was the "wind" in the sails of the soap?


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## Deda (Mar 9, 2011)

Avocado Butter is just hydrogenated Avocado oil.  I use it in about 25% of my soaps.  

It good, but Cocoa Butter is my favorite.


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## Soapy Bill (Mar 9, 2011)

Cocoa butter is hard to beat, but I've recently become a big fan of Cupuacu Butter,  Pretty similar - but oh so nice!

The only reason is becuase I scoured EBAY and some guy has a drum of it and is selling it pretty cheap by the lb relatively speaking.  I bought 10 lbs and while folks may not really be able to tell the difference in soap recipe tests - It really blends nicely.  Smells different that Cocoa even though they are closely related.  If you tell them up front it's in the soap, they think they can tell you the difference....but hand them identical bars with cocoa or cupuacu and they say they are the same  :shock: 

BTW, I originally formulated this soap recipe with Babassu oil instead of Palm, but too expensive and despite a firmer bar, I didn't think it was worth the cost.  It didn't pop out as being significant for Cleansing, conditioning, lather, etc.  Sometimes it does, but not with this recipe.


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