# wheres my fragrance ???



## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

So i purchased some fragrance oils which got delivered today - smelt really nice in the bottle but now iv added them to my soap batter i cant smell a thing???

my batter mix was only 400g and i used 20ml of fragrance oil????

i should be able to smell it right???


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## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

FYI these are what I purchased ....

http://www.gracefruit.com/fragrances-en/gracenotes-natural-fragrances/natural-fragrances/


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## holistichonnies (Sep 24, 2014)

anyone got any tips? .... please :sad:

The soaps are setting now and have absolutely no scent to them at all :-x


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

What was the weight of the EO?  It should all be i weight for an accurate comparison - the usage rates are in % and 1ml is not always the same weight, as I am sure you know.

When did you add it in?  Iäm not familiar with those oils, but they aren't usual EOs are they?


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

The weight was 20g so was actually over the recommended 5% use.

I put the fo in just before I added my colour, temp of batter was low as well, not even 40*c

These are natural fo's. Actual extracts from fruits apparently. Iv found a few companies that now sell natural fo's (they are cheaper in USA tho)


Iv failed so many times I'm becoming an expert


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## goji_fries (Sep 25, 2014)

Is that extract mentioned to be an "isolate"?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

Even though it specifies soaps, I'm not sure if CP would be the way to go with them they sound like something that the lye monster would easily be able to eat.  I would try again but with HP and put the FO in just before you mould up.


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

Isolate?? Not read that word mentioned on their site.


Iv failed so many times I'm becoming an expert


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

Iv emailed the company so I'm hoping for a decent explanation. 20g was plenty enough for 400g wasnt it? I did work that out ok???


Iv failed so many times I'm becoming an expert


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## goji_fries (Sep 25, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Even though it specifies soaps, I'm not sure if CP would be the way to go with them they sound like something that the lye monster would easily be able to eat.  I would try again but with HP and put the FO in just before you mould up.



Like TEG said, the 'lye monster' eats fragrance for lunch but no smell?


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

as soon as I added the fragrance to the batter .... nothing, no smell, not even a hint 

Im desperately searching for NATURAL fragrance oils other than eo's :/


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

Why not EOs?  And why not regular FOs?


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Why not EOs?  And why not regular FOs?



Eo's too expensive and Im not sure if the scent will stay around in the soap as eo's evaporate quickly.

and FO's are synthetic, I dont want to use synthetic's


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## Susie (Sep 25, 2014)

There is a reason that you read on this forum that the vast majority(if not all of us) use EOs or FOs.  

I can understand perfectly that you want to try to do your own thing, and make soap your way.  But doing so with fragrancing your soap is going to leave you with results that are... less than what you want.

As to the amount, had that been an EO, then that would have still been on the light side.  I believe FO rates vary, but I have never used them, so I can't speak to that.  You used a product I have no idea what it is, or how it was created.  You should have asked the company on the front end if it could be used for soap, and how much.  Caveat emptor.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

+ 1 to what Susie said.  I understand wanting to avoid synths, but at the % used in a wash-off product, it will be making little-to-no difference to you.  Unless you have specific health issues that prevent it, I would go for regular FOs.  There is very likely more harm from synths in the things that you eat or drink rather than what will come from 5% of FO in something that is on your skin for moments.


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

I understand what you say but my company does not use synthetics, our ethos is pure and natural.

I just wanted to try making soaps scented naturally. EO's are just too expensive at the moment.

I may just leave all my soaps unscented :-| just make them super pretty and eye catching.  I may play about with a few eo's if i can get a supplier cheap enough. 

I will make soaps for myself and family/friends with FO's but not for my business.


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

Susie said:


> You should have asked the company on the front end if it could be used for soap, and how much.  Caveat emptor.



The company say it is a soap fragrance and to use it at 5%

20g is 5% of 400g


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

I didn't realise that you run a company (with this being in the beginner section................)

So if you are buying in bulk and of course passing the costs on to customers, EOs aren't technically expensive to you.  What did your safety assessor say about these FOs?

Bear in mind, if you are going natural, colours might also be an issue.  A lot of them are factory made, as is the lye that you use, I imagine.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 25, 2014)

I agree with Effy. If you are trying to go natural colorants unless obtained from herbs, flowers or spices would not be considered natural. I don't think the FO's you purchased will hold up in CP.  They are more extracts. But they might work in HP or other body products.  Also, natural is so loosly defined anyway.


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## lionprincess00 (Sep 25, 2014)

Natural juice extracts will not make it through saponofication. If it did, we could all use our lemons and such and would have zero need to purchase fo's or eo's. I know you want natural, and I know they state these are good in soap (what kind isn't mentioned), but I think it is quite impossible for cp soap. People that add honey to their soaps don't have a pungent honey scent, maybe a hint. Same with beer, there's a scent but it isn't overwhelming not to mention it's a huge amount of the product as beer and not a tiny amount like a fragrance. Their honey one says it would make a great addition to "creams, balms, and slaves". Soap measurements could be for mp projects only, as it didn't specify. Usage rates main page are for fragrance oils and not the gracenotes natural oils.

Fragrances, as well as _everything_ should be measured in weight. Yes, 20 ml of water weighs about 20-21 grams of weight, but a soap maker must weigh and not use volume.

Their natural line is quite misleading on what they can work with. Nothing natural makes it through except eo's. Side note, the blueberry is 15.03 pounds for 50 ml, which is _less than_ a 2 oz bottle. So 1.63$ to 1 British pound, and that's a whopping $24.50 in American dollars for less than 2 oz! That's not cheap at all. I can get 10x orange for 6.20$ at 2oz, 2oz cedarwood is 15.00$ pricey yes but still cheaper, and lavender 40/42 is 13.50$ for 2 oz....all from bramble berry. And best thing, they'll stick in the soap. 
And finally, if you're selling (i missed that but someone else mentioned it), don't the customers absorb the extra costs??


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## welsh black (Sep 25, 2014)

I think this range is new to gracefruits.  I have used their regular fragrence with no problems.  Their info does say 5% for soap though.  I would get back to them and report that it doesn't come through in CP.  Probably ok for MP and creams ect.


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

My soaps are only in testing stage, as I am new to soap making. This is way I'm trying to find the best ingredients to use in soaps.

The eo's I buy are not cheaper than these fo's. I pay between £4-12 per 10ml bottle. 

I won't buy cheap as cheap almost always means fake/diluted. Iv bought cheaper oils before and been left with a bottle of [email protected] lol


Iv failed so many times I'm becoming an expert


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## shunt2011 (Sep 25, 2014)

If you aren't looking for cheap then I would go with quality EO's if you are going "natural".  Especially since you are thinking of selling at some point. In a lot of cases you get what you pay for and those extracts aren't going to work in CP. I also think you will be limiting your customer base if you only do unscented.  It just depend on what direction you plan on taking your business.


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

Do eo's 'stick' ok in cp soaps? I will certainly give some a try out


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

Some do better than others, I'm afraid.  Some will also have adverse effects on the process - florals can cause the batter to go rather iffy at times, for example.


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

Yes I did read that florals can cause issues! I'm just glad I actually enjoy this process of formulating the perfect recipe  


Iv failed so many times I'm becoming an expert


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## Susie (Sep 25, 2014)

I use strictly EOs in my soap.  I don't like floral scents, so I have never used those.  Citrus EOs need an anchor to stay in there.  Be careful with cinnamon and peppermint EOs amounts because they really can irritate skin, even in a wash off product.  I use no more than 0.3 oz PPO of these.  I have had no problems with any others.

Be absolutely sure that you are ordering/purchasing EOs intended for use on the human body.  Not all of them are.  The ones that are not are often cheaper, and therefore you will end up with something that is either not safe or will not stick in your CP soap.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

holistichonnies said:


> My soaps are only in testing stage, as I am new to soap making. This is way I'm trying to find the best ingredients to use in soaps.


 
Out of interest, who is your safety assessor for the bath and body products?  They might well do soaps as well and can advise you on what is allowed before you submit a recipe.


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## holistichonnies (Sep 25, 2014)

yeah they do both cp, hp and m&p soaps - but i need to formulate 6 variations of a soap recipe before I even think of submitting to them for tests due to cost  I currently only have 1 hahahaha


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2014)

And the body lotion bars, scrubs and so on?  These also need to be signed off, labelled correctly and so on before being sold


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## cmzaha (Sep 25, 2014)

Actually some people, such as me, are allergic to eo's and not synthetic. Not everything is bad with synthetic. I even have to take synthetic vitamins not naturals. There are many allergies and sensitivites out in this big world


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## shunt2011 (Sep 25, 2014)

Also, Micas are not natural.  They are pretty much all lab created these days.  I use eo's and fo's as wekk as micas, oxides and aquamarines. Artisan Handcrafted is what I call my products.


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## KatsKreations (Sep 25, 2014)

Lemongrass and lavender and clove bud have stuck the longest in my soap. Remember I am new to this so long term not sure. My first soap with orange and clove bud only the clove bud made it through. I love the smell but the soap even though I used a small amount feels a little tingly to me so I can imagine someone sensitive would possibly feel an irritation. I made a pumpkin spice bar that used pumpkin, and pumpkin pie spice to help color and scent. I used honey as well. Very very little scent in it, not unpleasant and smells better than just soap. So far lemongrass has really come through on the bars I used, eucalyptus, lemongrass, orange, and a bunch of others all together as sort of a test.  It has that citrus scent that I  _love. _I would suggest you do what I do. Make a blend using several EOs then see which ones come out in the wash..In the end you will find something you like and will know what works for you. Some scent is better than no scent unless it is my double butter bar (found recipe online). It smells like white chocolate and I want to eat it LOL. 
So far I have to say coloring with cocoa powder has been a great find for "natural" colorant. I have gotten all different shades depending if I CPOP or just let it cure without jelling. I like the shadings honey and milk give. I have used some clays and the activated charcoal. All the shadings are there but muted. Not vivid. I originally wanted to only use EO and "natural" colors. I find myself wanting brighter colors and can not stop sniffing my cherry vanilla and cotton candy FO ones. Do not get me wrong I also love sniffing the lavender and lemon grass. Stay true to what you are trying to do! I am going to continue the search as well. Maybe we can share what we find with everyone. Personally I have no interest in business, but a quest for knowledge definitely up for that! I will bet that we will find what many many others have found before us but at least we will know what we like.


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## Susie (Sep 25, 2014)

I forgot the most important thing!  Be absolutely sure to write down every last formula, including who you got which oils from.  This will save you endless hours trying to recreate something that while it did not smell wonderful at first, cured out to be absolutely amazing.(learned this the hard way) Not every lemongrass from every distributor is going to smell the same.  No matter how much people tell you otherwise.

On natural colorants, I use lots of infused oils in my soaps.  Paprika and annato are my favorites.  Put 1 oz(or so) of either one into a jar with 6-8 oz almond or olive oil(pomace OO works best due to light coloring), and place into a pan with a dish towel in the bottom.  Add water to come at least halfway up the side.  Place the lid loosely on the jar, and bring the water to a light boil, then reduce to a simmer for half an hour.  Turn the heat off and let it cool right there in the pan or onto a folded towel on the counter as placing onto a cold counter can cause your jar to break.  When you can handle it safely, pour the oil gently into another jar without disturbing the bottom.  You don't even have to strain it.  

Be sure your recipe calls for that type of liquid oil, then just substitute out the colored oil for the regular.  I use anywhere between 1 oz PPO and 6 oz PPO depending on how dark I want the color.  Paprika gives anywhere from a light lemon yellow to a dark brick color, depending on amount.  Annato gives a light orange to a dark orange color.


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## Susie (Sep 25, 2014)

In case anyone is thinking I am talking bad about FOs, I am not.  I just have never used them, so I can't, and won't speak to proper use.  So very many smart soapers here use them, and can help with it, but not me.  I would hate to lead anyone to think I know anything about them.


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## SoapSap (Oct 1, 2014)

Susie said:


> I use strictly EOs in my soap.  I don't like floral scents, so I have never used those.  Citrus EOs need an anchor to stay in there.  Be careful with cinnamon and peppermint EOs amounts because they really can irritate skin, even in a wash off product.  I use no more than 0.3 oz PPO of these.  I have had no problems with any others.
> 
> Be absolutely sure that you are ordering/purchasing EOs intended for use on the human body.  Not all of them are.  The ones that are not are often cheaper, and therefore you will end up with something that is either not safe or will not stick in your CP soap.







What do you mean by an "anchor" must be used for citrus essential oils?


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## sassanellat (Oct 1, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> Also, Micas are not natural.  They are pretty much all lab created these days.  I use eo's and fo's as wekk as micas, oxides and aquamarines. Artisan Handcrafted is what I call my products.



The mica itself is natural, and the absorption process is natural, so it depends on how they are colored. I understand there is supposed to be (or already is) a line of micas colored with natural dyes. Of course, they could be susceptible to lye degradation in CP, but I haven't seen the details. 

The oxides occur in nature, but are actually made in a lab in order to eliminate the heavy metals (lead, arsentic, etc.) invariably found in the natural product. Essentially, they are different colors of rust. They make them in the lab with a naturally purified iron (heat only), with natural reagents, in a reaction that produces only natural products. There are no solvents, and the other reagents and products are either in the human body or common in food. So, they are synthetic naturals! LOL!


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