# Ethics Question...is it wrong?



## Luv2Soap (Mar 19, 2015)

I was just going through my Facebook groups and saw this picture:








I remembered seeing this somewhere before - so I looked and sure enough, it was a design that Handmade in Florida did:







Something about this rubs me the wrong way. I mean, it's the exact same design with the exact same design elements in it. I understand that there are certain soaping techniques that are universal (e.g. swirls, etc...), but this, to me, is going beyond just mimicking a technique.

What are your thoughts about this? If someone copied your soap like this, what would you do about it?


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## Susie (Mar 19, 2015)

I am sure Handmade in Florida saw it somewhere else, and thought it was beautiful.  Same as the person on the FB group.  It is human nature to imitate what we love.  There is no way I know of to copyright something like this without great expense, and then you would spend all your time and money defending it.  There was a thread not long ago about copyrighting soap...

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52560&highlight=copyright


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## cmzaha (Mar 19, 2015)

In my opinion it is not wrong. One thing no one can make a soap exactly like someone else's nor can a person even duplicate a soap a second time. Almost all of us search for ideas and try to mimic. It is simply a pour and swirl technique that many of us have done. Soap is chemistry mixed with art


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 19, 2015)

It is a tricky area.  It's not always clear who copied whom as the top soap could have been made by someone  following a "how to" guide made by someone that copies the soap - the end soaper has no idea that it copies something else, it is just a guide online.  We have the example on here of someone who had a recipe copied by a well known site, but if some soaper follows the recipe, they have no idea that they are copying someone else :/

That said, those that make the original copy are lacking ethics, imho.


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## Dorymae (Mar 19, 2015)

Honestly if someone copied my soap design, like that one, I'd be beaming! We do this all the time. How do you think we learn all the swirls? Butterfly swirl is also from handmade in Florida. The drop swirl, hanger swirls, peacock swirl they are all copies. 

The thing is, we can copy a design, but they will never be exact replicas- they can't, swirling is too unpredictable. 

That is a very common design and I'm sure you could go on etsy and find at least 10 more just like it.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 19, 2015)

I agree, most of what we do has been done by someone else.  Also, Handmade in Florida posts quite a bit on you tube so might even have how to do it on there.   If someone want to try to copy something I made good luck to them as I can't even get the exact same design again.  Close but not the same.


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## new12soap (Mar 19, 2015)

The person that made that soap may very well belong to that facebook group. All the groups I am in use pictures from members that have posted their work, and it's done with permission. It's quite flattering for the soaper and usually great publicity.

The only time it is a problem is if someone steals a picture of someone else's work, posts it on their own website or page, and claims the work as their own. Then, yes, that is a BIG problem, one that many soapers have to deal with all the time.


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## Seawolfe (Mar 19, 2015)

I could point out 10 differences between those two soaps - and that is just visually, I don't know the recipe or the scent. I really don't think this is something you can claim ownership of. Otherwise many many tutorials on the web have rights to my soaps.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 19, 2015)

I've made a soap with the same design elements -- pebbly texture on the lower half, pencil line to divide, and a lighter layer above. I guarantee I'd never seen either of the pics you shared before I did this ... but it is very likely I'd seen a similar design on SMF or wherever. 

I think anyone who shares their work in a book or on a website, YouTube, Facebook or other online resource should understand and accept that others will be inspired to recreate their designs. As other posters have said, many of the soapers who do share their design ideas are happy to see others try their techniques. At least, I have yet to see someone be really peeved about that, but I suppose there's always a first time.

That said, trash talkin' about a competitor and her products, competing in the same market with look-alike products and packaging to take advantage of a more established or successful person's reputation, copying stuff wholesale from another person's business website, stealing someone else's pictures to use on one's own business website, etc. ... all of that I do think is inappropriate. These actions show a person wants to benefit herself by deliberately injuring or taking advantage of another person's business and reputation.


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## Cactuslily (Mar 19, 2015)

I can't count how many times people have asked me for a recipe of something I've made ( food, dessert), and then said, " mine didn't taste like yours." That's the thing about hand made creations, 10 people can make the same thing, using exact ingredients, and it won't come out the same. That's the beauty of artistry. That being said, my daughter has found people using her drawings and paintings online and passing them off as their own. That, is stealing. Give credit where credit is due.whats that saying about imitation being the highest form of flattery?


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## DeeAnna (Mar 19, 2015)

Yep, sincere imitation is one thing ... outright stealing is another!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 19, 2015)

Personally, I think that sincere imitation is one thing but outright stealing is another...........


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## not_ally (Mar 19, 2015)

Those two soaps are a little too close for comfort, at least for me.  Although, as EG pointed out, it is possible - however unlikely-  that HMIF was inspired by the other one.   Also, maybe a "duh" statement, it is different if you sell.  Sellers have a lot more time/effort/cost invested in their creations than a hobbyist like me, I can see how they might be upset if they have a "signature" design and it shows up as a c. close copy on another seller's site without an acknowledgment. 

I guess I don't think of this so much as an ethical issue as one of civility - more that if (a) you do copy someone else's soap and (b) are able to replicate it so closely, you should at least acknowledge it/give thanks.  Not hard to say "Props to Zahida for her inspiration" on your fb page.


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## navigator9 (Mar 19, 2015)

I think it would be nice to say, "I saw this incredible soap and this is my attempt at re-creating it." If you remember where you saw it, or who created it, that would be nice to mention, too. But you'd never want to say, "Hey, take a look at the swirl I invented." That, of course, would be wrong. And I think, out of respect to the originator, I'd at least try to use a different color combo, and not make an exact duplicate.


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## Luv2Soap (Mar 19, 2015)

not_ally said:


> Those two soaps are a little too close for comfort, at least for me. Although, as EG pointed out, it is possible - however unlikely- that HMIF was inspired by the other one. Also, maybe a "duh" statement, it is different if you sell. Sellers have a lot more time/effort/cost invested in their creations than a hobbyist like me, I can see how they might be upset if they have a "signature" design and it shows up as a c. close copy on another seller's site without an acknowledgment.
> 
> I guess I don't think of this so much as an ethical issue as one of civility - more that if (a) you do copy someone else's soap and (b) are able to replicate it so closely, you should at least acknowledge it/give thanks. Not hard to say "Props to Zahida for her inspiration" on your fb page.


 
This is exactly my point - it's a little too close for comfort for me too. If you are making it for personal use? I'd say it's fine. However, if you are selling it, especially in the same marketplace (online), I am not so comfortable with it.


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## Dorymae (Mar 19, 2015)

Luv2Soap said:


> This is exactly my point - it's a little too close for comfort for me too. If you are making it for personal use? I'd say it's fine. However, if you are selling it, especially in the same marketplace (online), I am not so comfortable with it.



You will find it very very hard then to ever sell any soap. I guarantee that any pattern you think is unique has been done before- and probably with colors very close to what you use. Go looking at etsy a bit, make note of some design concepts and then go see how many are so similar that you might think the same person made them. It is very hard to find anything truly 'new' in soap design.


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## not_ally (Mar 19, 2015)

"I guarantee that any pattern you think is unique has been done before- and probably with colors very close to what you use".

I agree, Dory, and a large part of that is b/c soapmakers are so generous about sharing information w/each other.   See, eg, your mica line thread (thanks for that!).  

It is just w/those soaps, the copy seemed like an intentional attempt to duplicate the other, and I think (though not sure) they both sell.  I guess for me, it is the intention behind it.  Like everyone who is learning about soaping I copy tons of stuff and am hugely grateful to those of you are willing to share, I would just hate for sellers to do less of it b/c they thought that it was counter-productive for them.


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## Luv2Soap (Mar 19, 2015)

not_ally said:


> "I guarantee that any pattern you think is unique has been done before- and probably with colors very close to what you use".
> 
> I agree, Dory, and a large part of that is b/c soapmakers are so generous about sharing information w/each other. See, eg, your mica line thread (thanks for that!).
> 
> It is just w/those soaps, the copy seemed like an intentional attempt to duplicate the other, and I think (though not sure) they both sell. I guess for me, it is the intention behind it. Like everyone who is learning about soaping I copy tons of stuff and am hugely grateful to those of you are willing to share, I would just hate for sellers to do less of it b/c they thought that it was counter-productive for them.


 
Honestly, that's my problem with it exactly. I don't know what the intention behind it is. I really appreciate all the discussion here.


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## not_ally (Mar 19, 2015)

PS, have to say that I think I *tried* to copy that exact soap, and it did not come out anything like that   Both of those makers have good skills.


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## JuneP (Mar 19, 2015)

*Similar in feeling*



Luv2Soap said:


> I was just going through my Facebook groups and saw this picture:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There is certainly a similarity in feeling; but I don't see these as the same, The main colors and swirl are different. Even the darker base texture is different. I see it as that soap makers take on a known design, and I don't have a problem with that. The main similarity to me is the darker base; but then a lot of soaps on the market are showing darker/different colored bases as part of a design. So, I guess it's up to the individual to decide what they find comfortable


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## maya (Mar 19, 2015)

I think they look different to me, too. I am sure my soaps have been "copied" and I am sure I have "copied" others' soap, not intentionally of course, but still. When one reads a lot, and one writes a lot, one eventually "copies" anothers' work. There was a recent article in Texas Monthly magazine about how does one really know that a Gin Gimlet was Oscars Wildes' favorite drink? You read it somewhere, and then in an article about Oscar Wilde you wrote it, thereby copying another writers work. Same goes with soap. A soapmaker might look at ten thousand bars of soap, you could not say that the bar of soap was not created in the image of a different soapmakers soap.


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## Chefmom (Mar 19, 2015)

That's the joy and the heartbreak of online selling and sharing.  You put your best items out there and everyone cruising around for an idea jumps on your idea.  If you are selling, your sales are right there.  If you are successful, then they are all scrambling to copy and even undercut your prices.  It's sad...but it is what it is.

I had something similar many years ago when I worked in a pottery studio with many students.  I spent time, and lots of it, reading pottery books, looking at pottery and ceramics in stores and coming up with needs from my own kitchen to inspire me when I sat down to create my own items.  Unlike online, where these people are strangers, these were people I knew from the studio, other students.  Before I left ceramics (to work an insane full time schedule) I started to see a trend.  If I made something one week, within two weeks I started to see copies of my ideas.  I made plates and went to find my work after firing to glaze and noticed three students making plates with the same rim as me.  Making lidded pots with the same shape and lids and knobs etc.  Making candle holders that had jack o lantern faces on them.  Flower pots all started to appear after I made mine.  At the time it really wore me out...I couldn't do anything of my own without the little sheep just looking at my pots (and some times I found my pots had been removed from the shelves and actually measured and studied and sat next to others while they were working on the wheel) and copying everything that I had spent time creating.

No....pottery and ceramics isn't new, very little functional pieces are anything very different that hasn't been thought of and done before.  But week after week of seeing my creations copied over and over really sucked the creative joy out of it for me....in the end I left the studio.

I take inspiration from everywhere...from everything, but when I finally make something it is my interpretation of an inspiration...not a copy.  I might lust after a specific color that I see someone using, and marvel at the beauty of anothers creation....but in the end...my products are my own.


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## TVivian (Mar 19, 2015)

I use other people soap pictures for inspiration all of the time! I usually  switch up the colors and put my own twist on it... But I guess it's still a copy in a way. It wouldn't bother me if someone outright copied my soap, especially if I'm the one posting pictures online for everyone to see them. The thing is, even though those two soaps are similar, there is one that is clearly executed better than the other (to me anyway) and that's what matters. I think that knowing someone could possibly copy your work and do it better ( or that you're good enough at something that someone would even want to) drives you to be better.


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## IrishLass (Mar 19, 2015)

This subject has come up quite a few times, and my attitude about it is still the same.

I've been making soap almost 10 years now, and like DeeAnna, I, too, have made soap designs that I would swear to high heaven that I came up with all on my own (never saw any other soap design like it before anywhere at any time), and then one day while looking online, I happen to see a pic of what looks to be my soap being sold on Etsy, but it isn't my soap because I don't sell, and I know that it wasn't copied from me because I have never posted a pic of that particular soap before. 

The way I look at things is that there is nothing new under the sun. Most of what we see as being done design-wise with soap in the present has more than likely been done before in the past by someone else. After-all, there are only so many ways one can decorate soap without something being repeated somewhere down the line. And as human beings, although we are creative in so many different ways, it turns out that we more similar than what we may think when it comes to appreciating the beauty of a certain line or curve or a swirl and wanting to project such a design onto our soap. 

Although I confess I was spooked a little when I saw that pic of 'my soap' online (like looking at your own doppelganger face to face), it didn't bother me in the least. I had a good laugh about it and silently congratulated the unknown soap-maker for having an excellent eye for beauty and for having executed such a lovely swirl. lol 

Even if they did copy me, I would be flattered more than anything else.....well, at least until the day I saw that the design I thought that _I_ had come up with had already been done before in the past by someone else, and that I had been patting myself on the back prematurely. 


IrishLass


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## not_ally (Mar 19, 2015)

OK, I think you guys have convinced me.  One of the good things about hearing other people's thoughts.


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## maya (Mar 19, 2015)

For me, it is also because I come from the herb world. And we are some weirdo folks. One of us gets an idea 'winter thyme elixir' and shares the idea, the formula and everything, then a hundred or a thousand of us are all making it, putting our own spin on it, thyme AND rosemary, no thyme but spruce tree resin. You get the idea. Think tons of soapers do the same kind of thing... "Oh look at this new mold!" or what have you. I share essential oil blends all the time. Same kinda thing.


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## not_ally (Mar 19, 2015)

I suspected you herby types were weirdos.  Although I kind of aspire to be one


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## reinbeau (Mar 19, 2015)

maya said:


> For me, it is also because I come from the herb world. And we are some weirdo folks. One of us gets an idea 'winter thyme elixir' and shares the idea, the formula and everything, then a hundred or a thousand of us are all making it, putting our own spin on it, thyme AND rosemary, no thyme but spruce tree resin. You get the idea. Think tons of soapers do the same kind of thing... "Oh look at this new mold!" or what have you. I share essential oil blends all the time. Same kinda thing.


THIS!!^^  I am also an herbal weirdo  and I just thought the soap world would be the same - oh boy, was I wrong.  But it's ok.  I am like that.  I love to learn, share, collaborate, I enjoy the camaraderie of those who are same-minded.  I avoid the ones that aren't.   Not trying to poke at anyone but my other thought is - be confident in yourself.  People who find issues to get into high umbrage either have too little confidence in themselves or just have waaaay too much time on their hands.   At least that's how I see it.  Of course outright copying to steal business is wrong - but really, if you sell at one end of the country and someone else sells something similar on the other, is it really an issue?  Yea, I know, selling on line and all - that's why I don't bother with that.  I sell locally only.  It's simpler that way - I have no need to conquer the soap world.


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## navigator9 (Mar 19, 2015)

Years ago, when I was trying to come up with a name for my business, I came up with several that I thought were inventive and unique. But every time I googled them, someone had got there before me. The nerve! lol Then I came up with one I knew no one would have ever though of. Certain of this, I spent time drawing the perfect logo, to go with the name. I was so darn satisfied with myself. Before going to the town hall to register my name, I thought I'd google it, just for the hell of it. Wouldn't you know it.....someone else had "my" name..........and the identical logo!!!!! Back to the drawing board I went. So it really is hard to have a creative idea that is totally unique, no matter how hard we try. But it is crushing to work hard on something and have others copy it detail for detail. Hopefully they would* at least* add their own flair in some form or another.


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## newbie (Mar 19, 2015)

I suppose this is redundant at this point, but it is true that people are "inventing" the same things without knowledge of the other. I had that experience not long ago. I made a slab swirl and winged it. The result looked just like a helix of DNA so that's what I called it. I felt some ownership of it only to find out someone else had also done a swirl, thought it looked just like a helix of DNA and called it that too. I had no idea!

I look at pictures of soap all the time, trying to find interesting ones for the soap pics thread. I can tell you that many of the same designs come up over and over and over. Who owns that design? I don't think anyone does because somewhere, someone will have done the same thing. Plus, I am always looking for ideas and designs to try to copy or to try to tweak. The person with the top soap may have felt their soap was a tweak on a color scheme they saw but they decided to make the texture on the bottom heavier and use more ocean-like colors on the top. That may have been a spin in their eyes. I'm sure someone could present a scenario of a soap design that would make me question it, but in general, it seems like we all reinvent wheels or riff off of other people's soap. At least I do.


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## Luv2Soap (Mar 19, 2015)

You know what...I think I'm coming around to understanding what you guys are getting at. For some reason it bothered me. Probably because I respect Handmade in Florida's talent so much, I hate seeing anyone getting ripped off. However, I can also see how this was someone's attempt to try to replicate a design. I guess at the end of the day, does it really matter?


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## biarine (Mar 19, 2015)

You can imitate the looks but not everything. Like in my country Philippines we have very famous cake called mamon ( chiffon cake ) I can try from one bakery to another it's the same look and recipe but taste different.


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## cerelife (Mar 20, 2015)

Just to add my 2 cents...I had an idea for a soap that I was really proud of, but I hadn't made it yet. And then in my endless soap perusing I discovered that another soapmaker had made almost the same exact soap! I swear that I had NEVER seen this soap or anything remotely like it before, and I was a little put off about making that particular soap since someone else did it first. I felt like I would be copying them even though I knew in my heart that it was my own idea and no one else's! Like others have mentioned, there's really nothing new under the sun, but it just didn't FEEL right, ya know?
So I ordered a bar of the soap from this soapmaker and it was (Ahem)...less than stellar. I knew I could do it better, so I went ahead with my idea and made a great soap! 
What's kind of funny is that this same soapmaker introduced a new soap soon after that which was an exact replica of a soap I had been making for some time with the same exact name as mine!! And I'm about 99% positive that she came up with it on her own and it has nothing to do with MY soap  
And yep, I ordered a bar of that one too. It may look the same, but the smell and feel are totally different!


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