# CP:  Does temperature matter?  (lye/oils)



## Jayne (Feb 4, 2018)

So I've spent a lot of time watching tutorials over the last month.  A lot of my "basic" information has come from the soap queen tutorials.  They've been really good for basic information.  One thing that is stressed in every single video is making sure that the lye water and the oils are within 10 degrees of each other.  

Does this really matter?  I'm trying to decide if it is worth spending $30 to get a temperature gun.  The reality is I'm not going to continue with the thermometer I have.  It's too much hassle.    Yet I've seen some posts on here from experienced soapers who say they don't, and have never, checked the temperature other than making sure their oils are clear and touch testing the lye water on the side.  

$30 is a lot of money for me right now.  I'm loving soaping so I'll give something up (ie, I'll buy no oils and no soap for a few weeks) if it is necessary but now I'm confused.


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## snappyllama (Feb 4, 2018)

When I first got started I was really careful to make sure my temps were within range... I think we must have been watching the same videos.

Now I  just estimate it. I start out by making my lye water and then melting my hard oils.  I add my soft oils (unheated) to the melted oils. Then I get the rest of my ingredients together, figure out my colors, do a little cleanup, and stare off into space for about 10 minutes.  By then everything is around 80-90 F. I don't bother with my temp gun anymore.

The reason why they are saying that... If you soap too hot, your batter will trace much faster - making it hard to get a nice pour (dependent on other factors like fragrance/recipe/soap fairies). If you soap too cool, you can get false trace (you think everything has been combined to emulsification - but it's just your hard oils resolidifying and then your batch separates after pouring).

Long story short... if you're making soap without gremlins without a temp gun... I wouldn't bother with it.


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## penelopejane (Feb 4, 2018)

For high OO soaps or if you are going to CPOP I find a temperature gun very helpful to avoid stearic spots and to get the oven to the right temp.
It doesn’t matter that the oils and lye are within 10* of one another. The temp of the overall mix is what is important to get gel and avoid stearic spots in some mixes.

Also I use the temp gun to check that my soap has reached room temp before I unmold them to avoid ash. It sort of makes soaping fun! And it helps get consistent results for me. Get one from Ali express or eBay for $10 USD


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## earlene (Feb 4, 2018)

If cost is an issue, I would forego the Infrared Thermometer gun.  I do like mine and use it most days, but for me it's more of a safety net than an absolute necessity.

You can feel by touching the outer surface of the bowl containing your oils and the outer surface of the lye container if they are within a reasonable temperature range of each other or if they are too hot to handle.

If you ever are concerned about your oven temperature not reading correctly when you CPOP (I do because I have experienced oven malfunctions in the past, so I remain diligent about that), then you can always buy an oven thermometer that hangs from the rack for a much more reasonable price (around $3.00 more or less, depending on where you go.)

So, as I said, although I really like mine and use it most days, it is really not necessary.


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## lsg (Feb 4, 2018)

For what it is worth, I prepare my lye water first, then melt the solid butters or oils and mix them with the liquid oils.  I can tell by touching the side of the container holding the mixed oils if it is too hot.  If it is just slightly warm, I figure it is OK to use.  If my lye water looks fairly clear, I add it to the oils and stick blend.  I have been using this method for several years with success.  Keep in mind, I don't usually do elaborate swirls, just in the pot, etc.


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## Jayne (Feb 4, 2018)

Thanks everyone!  Seems it is something I can buy later if I need it.

Unless I do CPOP.  What is CPOP?


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## Misschief (Feb 4, 2018)

I'll chime in here, too. I don't own a infrared thermometer and I have no intention of purchasing one. I do have an instant read thermometer I love. I don't often check the temps of my lye mixture or my oil mix. If I can comfortably hold my hand on the outside of my stainless steel bowls and they feel about the same, I go ahead.

The only time I use my thermometer is when I'm making any kind of milk soap. I prefer to soap cooler with those.


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## BattleGnome (Feb 4, 2018)

Totally understand the money thing: don’t know if this is applicable to you but it has saved me a ton of hassle.

Don’t be afraid to ask for the non-specific things for birthdays/Christmas. My mom gets super annoyed that her grown up children can afford themselves and don’t ask her to buy clothes or anything anymore. My dad can spend a few weeks searching for a good sale on a temp gun, gram scale, or whatever while my mom gets to feel like she’s contributing to my life/interests like she did when I lived under her roof.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 4, 2018)

CPOP -- cold process, oven process.

There are several ways of doing CPOP, but the way that works best for most people is to preheat your oven to no more than about 145 F (60 C). My oven has a "keep warm" setting at 145 F (60 C), so I just preheat to that temp.

Other people may prefer lower temps for CPOP -- I think Irish Lass shoots for about 110 F (43 C). And others have older stoves that cannot preheat low enough -- many ovens won't preheat to anything less than 170 F  (75 C). In that case, use a timed method of preheating -- turn the oven on like you were going to bake something, set a timer for 2-3 minutes, and turn the oven off after the timer buzzes.

After the preheat, however you do it, turn off the oven and put your soap in the oven. Leave it in the oven for a few hours or overnight to saponify.

I don't use an infrared temperature gun for soaping. I sometimes check the temperature of my soap batter with an instant read thermometer, but that's for curiosity's sake. My main temperature sensor is my hands -- if the soap pot feels gently warm to the touch, it's fine.


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## toxikon (Feb 4, 2018)

Nope, I remember watching those Soap Queen videos too and painstakingly trying to get my lye solution and melted oils to 110 degrees at the same time. Sad times...

Now I find the easiest thing to do is:

Make lye solution in advance (or masterbatch) and give it plenty of time to reach room temperature. Sometimes I'll make my lye solution first thing in the morning, go do some errands or housework, then actually start making my soap 3-4 hours later.

So generally, my lye solution is 70-80 degrees and my melted oils are around 100-110 degrees (melt hard oils then add RT soft soils and let it sit until a bit cooler).

These temperatures give me the perfect amount of time to make nice designs. 

Then I generally gently CPOP by setting my oven to 145 degrees while I soapmake, then turning it off and putting my poured soap inside for a few hours.


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## penelopejane (Feb 4, 2018)

Here’s one for $6.68 USD free shipping (real free shipping - no minimum order). 

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32838...00_0109&spm=a2g0n.search-amp.list.32838621987


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## Jayne (Feb 5, 2018)

Thanks all.    CPOP sounds like something I'll leave till I'm a bit more experienced.   Or I have an easier oven to use.


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## IrishLass (Feb 5, 2018)

I use a Thermapen instant-read thermometer.  My wonderful hubby bought it for me for Christmas one year.  They are pricey, but I use mine for more than soaping, and it has more than earned its keep.

I'm a temp-taker when I soap because of the kinds of fats I use in my formulas (the kind that cause stearic spots if I soap too cool) along with the specific lye concentration I use (33% or higher), and the fact that I like to fully gel all my soaps, which is tricky to achieve with a 33% or higher lye concentration if the temp of my batter goes too low.

Once my soap is poured, I CPOP it a preheated 110F oven to encourage full gel. My oven does not have a specific preheat/pre-set for 110F, but it does have a handy digital readout display that shows me how hot the oven is getting as it is warming up once I turn it on. As soon as it reaches 110 I turn it off, which only takes a mere 3 minutes with my oven, then place my soap inside for an overnight stay (I normally soap at night before bed).


IrishLass


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## penelopejane (Feb 5, 2018)

Jayne said:


> Thanks all.    CPOP sounds like something I'll leave till I'm a bit more experienced.   Or I have an easier oven to use.



CPOP is just a method of keeping the micro environment around the molded soap at a cozy temperature that helps it saponify and gel.  It isn't difficult to do.  Follow Irish Lass's instructions, put your soap in a cardboard box, wrap it in an old towel or blanket and you won't go wrong.   

CPOPing your soap means it will have a brighter colour and that you will be able to unmold your soap earlier than without CPOPing.


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## BrewerGeorge (Feb 5, 2018)

penelopejane said:


> Here’s one for $6.68 USD free shipping (real free shipping - no minimum order).
> 
> https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32838...00_0109&spm=a2g0n.search-amp.list.32838621987


Won't help the OP in Australia, but for others Harbor Freight (US) and Princess Auto (Canada) usually have IR guns for about ten bucks.


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## Misschief (Feb 5, 2018)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Won't help the OP in Australia, but for others Harbor Freight (US) and Princess Auto (Canada) usually have IR guns for about ten bucks.



Good to know.. there's a Princess Auto very near my work.


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## jcandleattic (Feb 5, 2018)

I personally don't take temps, and never have. I soap at RT with both my lye and oils. Sometimes if my oils are slushy (like they get in the winter time) I zap them in the microwave for about 30-45 seconds until they are clear, and then soap.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 5, 2018)

My goal is to make soap with the initial batter temp under 110 F (45 C). I've checked the actual temperature and compared that with my "hand temperature." 

I've learned that "pleasantly warm" to the palm of my hand is around 95 to 105 F, and usually closer to 95-100 F.  YMMV on what's pleasantly warm, but I'm guessing a lot of other people have a similar perception of warmth on the palm vs. the measured temperature.

Around 95 F, my lard is not fully melted and the fats look hazy or milky. That's a good visual indicator of borderline too cool for me. I prefer my soap to gel and need the batter to start a bit warmer than 95 F to get to gel temperatures. "Distinctly more than pleasantly warm" is above 110 F. 

More and more, I use my palm to check the temp, but there's no harm in checking with my instant read thermometer if there's any question in my mind. If I haven't made soap for awhile, I usually do measure the temperature just because I'm a little rusty.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 5, 2018)

I have two lazer guns, neither of which I found accurate or easy to use -- i.e. _"aim at 14" from the surface of the oils or lye."_  I currently use a digital thermometer with a 12" stainless probe.  I soap pretty much like Irish Lass does and always take temps because of the variety of soaps I make and process methods I use. I rarely CPOP but when I do, I preheat my oven to its lowest temp, stick my batch in, turn the over off and leave the soap to do its thing and cool down overnight. NOTE: This eliminates the need for a "draft free" place and insulating the batch.

As a Newbie, I would recommend buying a thermometer with a stainless probe -- and follow recommended temps at first-- until you get a feel for the difference between soaping different combos of fats, oils, butters, etc. I've never experienced DOS or soda ash. I think paying attention to temps is largely responsible for that, as well as the % of water discount and lye discount.


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## Soapmaker123 (Feb 5, 2018)

Temperature control is important in soap making.  Get the little IR thermometer from Harborfreight Tools.  $11.99 -- cheap!





https://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-pocket-thermometer-93983.html


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## cmzaha (Feb 5, 2018)

Unless things have changed IR thermonenters are for surface temp, and the middle of your batter can be much different so I would use a probe type. I am like JCandleattic that does not check temp, but like DeeAnna if it is comfortable to my hand it is fine, I even soap tallow, palm and lard recipes when they are a little cloudy, but I force gel by putting my molds in a long shallow crate with a heat blanket on top and heating pad on the bottom. My molds will not fit in my oven so I had to come up with a different way. I just do not have the time to fiddle and worry about temps, I also work with master batch 50/50 lye solutions unless I am making a full vinegar soap


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## Soapmaker123 (Feb 5, 2018)

Kinda stir it up well, and the surface temp should give a useful indication.  The plus side of no contact is no goo.


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## cmzaha (Feb 5, 2018)

Soapmaker123 said:


> Kinda stir it up well, and the surface temp should give a useful indication.  The plus side of no contact is no goo.


That I am aware of , but still prefer a probe if I want actual temperature especially if working with lotions


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## jcandleattic (Feb 6, 2018)

cmzaha said:


> That I am aware of , but still prefer a probe if I want actual temperature especially if working with lotions


Yep, agreed, with lotions I absolutely take temps, and I also prefer a probe thermometer, - I've never liked the IR thermometers, but with my soapmaking - nope, I find there is no need, and it's just an added unnecessary step for me.


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## DianaMoon (Apr 10, 2018)

earlene said:


> If you ever are concerned about your oven temperature not reading correctly when you CPOP (I do because I have experienced oven malfunctions in the past, so I remain diligent about that), then you can always buy an oven thermometer that hangs from the rack for a much more reasonable price (around $3.00 more or less, depending on where you go.)



I know what CPOP is but what is the purpose of it? Oops, sorry - just read Irish Lass above & it was explained.


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## cmzaha (Apr 10, 2018)

Since I soap room temp with my oils barely and sometimes hazy I put my molds in long plastic totes with lids on a heating pad with an electric blanket wrapped around them. If I layer 3 totes I put a lap heat blanket between the totes, then cover with the electric blanket. My soaps are always very hard to force them to gel. This does no apply to naughty heater type fo's such as some florals. If something goes south and the soap separates (does not happen often) the tote will catch any leakage. I will caution to keep an eye on progress and do not let it overheat or leave blankets on if leaving the house. One time I had a mess in my oven from an overheated soap and that ended the oven method for me, plus the fact my molds do not fit in the oven well and I always make multiple batches.


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## OrganicSoapGuy (Apr 16, 2018)

Soapmaker123 said:


> Temperature control is important in soap making.  Get the little IR thermometer from Harborfreight Tools.  $11.99 -- cheap!


I always prefer to control all variables. Even in a highly controlled setting, CP soap sometimes has a personality of its own. Being a bit more careful and scientific about the process doesn't make it less artistic.


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## Rune (Apr 23, 2018)

I have seen on Youtube that people put hot lye in cold oils, to save time and make it easy since the hot lye will melt the hard oils. And it looks like they are getting nice soaps in the end. So I doubt that oil and lye have to be within 10 degrees of eachother to make great soaps. But I have not tried, so I have no idea.

But I do know that a little too hot oils mixed with sizzling hot lye when doing countertop hot process, will end with a massive volcano and vaseline stage almost in an instant. Especially with a lye concentration of around 45%. And it will harden up almost in front of your very eyes. So that can be a challenge :-D So I will watch my temperatures a little bit more the next time I do hot process, to reduce the stress factor.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 25, 2018)

Rune said:


> I have seen on Youtube that people put hot lye in cold oils, to save time and make it easy since the hot lye will melt the hard oils.


This is an advanced technique used by many CP soapers I know. Once the hard oils are melted by the hot lye solution, the liquid oil(s) is warmed before adding to the batch and SB-ing to trace. I tried it once. Works quite nicely and it does speed up the process -- you don't have to wait for the lye solution to cool down before combining with the fats.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 25, 2018)

And this "thermal transfer" method works best for recipes that don't have a high % of lard, tallow, palm, or butters. If there are enough of these solid fats, there's not enough thermal energy in the lye solution to fully melt the fat.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 25, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> And this "thermal transfer" method works best for recipes that don't have a high % of lard, tallow, palm, or butters.


Hmmm. This is the recipe I used, in case anyone wants to try it:


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## [email protected] (Apr 25, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> And this "thermal transfer" method works best for recipes that don't have a high % of lard, tallow, palm, or butters. If there are enough of these solid fats, there's not enough thermal energy in the lye solution to fully melt the fat.


I was wondering about that myself, Thanks


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## DeeAnna (Apr 25, 2018)

If it works for you, Zany, it works. I'm not trying to discount your experience. What I am saying is MY experience has been that this method doesn't reliably work for recipes high in solid fats. And I've heard other soapers say the same thing, so it's not just me.


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## cmzaha (Apr 25, 2018)

Thermal transfer does not work for my recipes


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## Lin19687 (Apr 26, 2018)

I have done Lye almost 20 degrees hotter then the oils, but under 130, and all it good. But the oils were melted.
The oils just cool off faster then the Lye does.
I don't have Ice cubes, we use the "re-usable" ones.  Small freezer 

edit to fix wrong word


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 26, 2018)

As I always say on this topic, the idea of the oils and lye being a similar temperature gives beginners something to aim for. If no information on that front is given, what would you do? Let it cool down or use it hot and fresh? As we know, that can cause issues. The advice is good advice to make a successful batch, but is not a rule for general soaping.


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## dixiedragon (Apr 26, 2018)

I keep my oils in the basement. For me, thermal transfer works okay in the summer - when the basement is between 70-80. But it doesn't work in the winter, when the basement is colder. But I also use a lot of lard.


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## amd (Apr 26, 2018)

I have several IRL soaper friends, and between the 4 of us we all use different methods.

Friend 1 (who taught me how to make soap) Melts her oils together, mixes her lye, covers everything and mixes it all together the next day. I believe this is "true" room temp method. *note, she also does not have children or other people living with her, or naughty cats that get on the counter. Her recipe is +60% liquid oils. When she taught me, she had me bring each temp to 110°F approximately.

Friend 2 soaps at 95°F.

Friend 3 uses heat transfer with fresh lye to melt her coconut oil and adds in her room temp liquid oils. She doesn't use tallow or butters.

I use 'kind of' heat transfer method. I masterbatch all of my oils into big buckets - I use tallow, cocoa butter, shea butter and coconut for hard oils at 65% of my recipe. If my soap lab is really warm, I have to do a lot of mixing as there will be some liquid in the bucket. I do not use my MB oils if it doesn't incorporate back in, or if there are visible solid chunks. I measure out my MB, which is very creamy consistency, and add fresh lye. 

I have tried the "true" heat transfer method with other recipes, some of the trick is adding in solid oils one at a time in order of highest melting point first, and using smaller chunks. (For butters I have only tried this with shea, I have not tried it with cocoa butter, or other hard butters.) I think the recipe I used it for was 1:1 hard to liquid, with lard, coconut, and shea for hard oils, and olive and castor for the liquid. These were small batches at 1lb oils, so for larger batches I could imagine the results would vary if I were to try it again at larger amounts.

It is interesting that everyone has different methods, and different results based on recipes, but yet we all end up with soap. I agree with TEG that bringing everything to similar temps is a great way to start out and brings reliable results. It certainly teaches one lessons when one tries other methods. 

(For a good laugh, before I found this forum, I thought I invented the heat transfer method because I couldn't find it anywhere in my reading. It occured to me at my third batch that the lye is hot and would melt my oils - at that time I was doing 30/30/30/10 lard, coconut, olive and castor - and I tried it and it turned into soap! I thought I was a genius! A year later I joined here and discovered that it is more common than not...)


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 26, 2018)

The only time that heat transfer was a big issue for me was with cocoa butter. It was in "disc" form, about 2cm diameter. They did not want to melt at all. 

Usually, if I measure out my oils and then look at making my lye solution, the oils have softened enough to be okay. I normally have 50% lard and around 20% co, neither of which are particularly hard to melt, though, especially if they have been sat waiting in the pot while I mix my solution.


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## Lin19687 (Apr 26, 2018)

Since I use a fair bit of Palm I heat the oils, don't want Stearic spots which I got when I didn't heat oils high enough. So I am not comfortable with heat transferr.


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## earlene (Apr 26, 2018)

I have used the heat transfer method, and for the most part am not enthralled by it, especially in the winter.  For me it just seems easier to heat my hard oils together ahead of time.  However, if I was more concerned about the price of doing it that way, or did not have access to a heating-up method, I probably would use it more often. 

I fact I have been in that situation because when I travel, I often make soap, and a couple of times, did not have access to a heating up method.  Rarely do I stay in hotels or motels that don't include a Microwave, but it does happen once in awhile.   So I have used the heat transfer method as needed a couple of times while traveling.

Perhaps the cost and/or the environmental impact of pre-heating oils do influence some soapers to choose this method more than others.  I suppose it would reduce production costs in some cases.


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