# Bay Rum Aftershave - Almost there! Just a couple questions.



## BayBoy (Jun 20, 2017)

I've reached a point in my adventures with my Bay Rum recipe where I actually have a product that I genuinely like.

I wanted the end result to be as natural as possible (free of FOs). Here is what I determined:

- By steeping Pimenta racemosa leaves in Everclear, I get a nicely scented solution that looks like a very clear bourbon with a fine aroma, though intensely alcoholic. So I cut it 50/50 with a separate 50/50 solution of witchazel and distilled water.

- I added Allspice EO, and that helped bring it all together. The solution remained the same - like a clear bourbon.

- To round out the aroma, I decided it was missing Sandalwood. The  cost of SW EO is crazy, so I added just 2 drops of Sandalwood FO  to a 2oz solution. The aroma smelled perfect immediately, though the color completely  changed to a murky yellowish tint.

I have some general questions though about my process:

1. Does the 50/50 solution of alcohol to witchazel/water mixture sound like a proper approach? I want a slight bracing sting, which I'm getting now. Just not sure if y'all feel like there's too much alcohol in the mix (esp as there's alcohol in the WH).

2. How long do you think I need to steep the dried bay leaves in alcohol for a complete extraction? I don't want to use the solution prematurely. But I don't want to wait weeks longer than I need to. 

3. One thing I noticed after adding even just a small amount of FO to the mix is that after a few days, my Bay Rum left a smooth/slick feeling on the skin. It's not a bad thing per se, but it kind of bothers me. Is this normal with FOs?

4. With the base ingredients being alcohol, water and witchazel, and this being an aftershave, what are your opinions about other additives such as aloe and glycerine. I see the logic on the one hand, but like the simplicity of the current formula. I wonder if I added glycerine, aloe, or both without cutting back on the alcohol would reduce the sting (I like the sting and don't want to lose it). 

5. Lastly, to what degree should I expect the scent to change over time. I feel like the sandalwood scent has started dominating the solution now that it's about 3 weeks old.

Cheers!


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## Dahila (Jun 20, 2017)

actually I use fresh leaves when seeped in alcohol , usually for 6-8 weeks, shaking it daily.  would be the same with dry leaves.  I would think 35 of alcohol and the rest WH and water should be enough.  That's my opinion, Even with alcohol you need to add preservative. I would add it,  
Hopefully irishlass will show up, she is a specialist of those things


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## BayBoy (Jun 20, 2017)

Thanks Dahila!

Actually that was another question. Even though Everclear is 190 proof, does the leaves being an organic pose any risk of contamination? And if so, what would the shelf life be?

I was worried about bacterial contamination when I was steeping orange peels, lemons and so on. But for some reason I was thinking/hoping just the dried leaves wouldn't be a serious issue.

And are there really any risk factors as this isn't consumed internally?


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## BayBoy (Jun 21, 2017)

I do hope IrishLass replies


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## BattleGnome (Jun 22, 2017)

I have yet to have an inclination to search out a bay rum, but I can comment a bit on the last question.

One option is to take a few drops of your current mix and hold onto it for a while. Take it out and give it a sniff every once in a while to see how it changes. If you're having issues with too much sandalwood at 3 weeks that might be the direction it stays in. If you don't like it then an option would be to decrease the amount of sandalwood FO and let it "cure" to the right scent. A second option would be to use all FO. I'm pretty sure FO's are formulated to be long lasting and you don't get that option with EO's. If you gave up and went the FO route I'd imagine you'd need 1-3% of the blend to your alcohol/water/witch hazel mix. 

(Without being one of the science experts) the oily feeling could be the FO or it could simply being the volatile parts of the alcohol evaporating. I've never made an after shave to be able to tell you more.


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## IrishLass (Jun 22, 2017)

BayBoy said:


> I've reached a point in my adventures with my Bay Rum recipe where I actually have a product that I genuinely like.
> 
> I wanted the end result to be as natural as possible (free of FOs). Here is what I determined:
> 
> ...


 
That's fantastic that you were able to get a hold of some actual Pimenta Racemosa leaves! I've only ever smelled the EO, but I bet the fresh scent from the leaves must be amazing. 



BayBoy said:


> I have some general questions though about my process:
> 
> 1. Does the 50/50 solution of alcohol to witchazel/water mixture sound like a proper approach? I want a slight bracing sting, which I'm getting now. Just not sure if y'all feel like there's too much alcohol in the mix (esp as there's alcohol in the WH).


 
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think your level of alcohol is too much at all.  Both my hubby and son like theirs to have a slightly bracing sting, too, and so I make their aftershave with a fairly high amount of alcohol. For what it is worth, here is the base formula of my aftershave (not including the scent):

-49.71% 190-proof Everclear
-12.28% SD 70 Alcohol
-15.21% Witch Hazel 
-19.88% Aloe Vera Juice (George's-brand)
-2.92% Vegetable Glycerin

I'd use all Everclear for my alcohol amount, but for some weird reason, both my hubby and son like having that distinct medicinal-like alcohol smell from the SD-70 in there. Go figure! 

I don't use any preservative in mine because the total alcohol content of my formula -including the alcohol present in my witch hazel- comes to 57.42%, which is plenty to self-preserve it. The last time I checked, 25% total alcohol content was the least recommended amount for self-preserving. 



BayBoy said:


> 2. How long do you think I need to steep the dried bay leaves in alcohol for a complete extraction? I don't want to use the solution prematurely. But I don't want to wait weeks longer than I need to.


 
To tell you the truth, I'm not exactly sure how to judge when something has been completely extracted, but if you look at all the various Bay Rum aftershave recipes on the net, steeping times seem to vary from person to person. Some steep for as little as 8 days, while others steep for up to 3 or 4 weeks or even longer. For myself, 4 to 6 weeks seems a sufficient amount of time.



BayBoy said:


> 3. One thing I noticed after adding even just a small amount of FO to the mix is that after a few days, my Bay Rum left a smooth/slick feeling on the skin. It's not a bad thing per se, but it kind of bothers me. Is this normal with FOs?


 
I may not be the best person to ask because all the stuff I make for use on the skin with FOs or EOs also contains other slick-feeling ingredients, so it's hard for me to be able to discern how much the FO or EO might be contributing. 



BayBoy said:


> 4. With the base ingredients being alcohol, water and witchazel, and this being an aftershave, what are your opinions about other additives such as aloe and glycerine. I see the logic on the one hand, but like the simplicity of the current formula. I wonder if I added glycerine, aloe, or both without cutting back on the alcohol would reduce the sting (I like the sting and don't want to lose it).


 
My hubby and son like having the glycerin and aloe that I add in mine. Without it, it feels too drying. They've told me that my formula is the perfect balance between bracing and soothing for their skin. Everyone's skin is different, so it might feel different to others, but for them it's just right. 




BayBoy said:


> 5. Lastly, to what degree should I expect the scent to change over time. I feel like the sandalwood scent has started dominating the solution now that it's about 3 weeks old.


 
This one is a toughy to answer because the sense of smell is so individual, and the ability to pick up on this or that nuance can differ greatly from person to person. The very best advice I can offer is to follow your nose and go where it leads you. 


IrishLass


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## BayBoy (Jun 22, 2017)

IrishLass - I soooooo appreciate this 

Especially the confirmation that alcohol will serve as a preservative.

I will also experiment with aloe and glycerin.


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## IrishLass (Jun 22, 2017)

My pleasure!. 


IrishLass


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## DeeAnna (Jun 22, 2017)

I agree with IL -- a minimum of 25% ethyl alcohol by weight is sufficient for preservation. You could go as low as 20% and still be okay, but anything below than that won't be reliably preserved. Given that alcohol will evaporate out of a product over time, I'd stick to a minimum of 25%. 

Remember that everclear or any other alcohol product is not 100% alcohol, so calculate the alcohol content of your product accordingly.

Also alcoholic beverages (everclear, vodka) are % alcohol by volume (ABV) not by weight, at least in the US, so you'll need to factor that into your calculations as well.


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## IrishLass (Jun 22, 2017)

Ditto what DeeAnna said. I always make sure to use the instructions DeeAnna posted on how to figure out the total alcohol content contained in my finished product based on whatever proof of alcohol I'm are using plus the alcohol amount contained in my witch hazel. I'll see if I can find it in my DeeAnna File........ aha- here its is: 
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=508867&postcount=5 



IrishLass


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## BayBoy (Jun 22, 2017)

That would be amazing. Thanks to you both. I really value this info!!


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## DeeAnna (Jun 22, 2017)

Gosh, I'd forgotten about that one, IL! Thanks for bringing it up, because there's a correction I need to make about an assumption I made in that link you gave. I assumed % alcohol by volume (ABV) is the same as % alcohol by weight (ABW), but that's not quite right. Here's is the correct conversion:

ABV = Proof / 2
ABW = ABV X 0.79336

Example 1: In the state of Iowa, Everclear (grain alcohol) is 151 proof. What is the ABV and ABW of this product?
ABV = 151/2 = 75.5%
ABW = 75.5 X 0.79336 = 59.9%

Example 2: In other US states, Everclear may legally be as high as 189 to 190 proof. What is the ABV and ABW of this product, assuming 190 proof?
ABV = 190/2 = 95%
ABW = 95 X 0.79336 = 75.4%

Example 3: Most vodka is 80 proof. What is the ABV and ABW of this product?
ABV = 80/2 = 40%
ABW = 40 X 0.79336 = 31.7%

I also added a correction to the example I gave in other thread -- see http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=651750&postcount=18


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## IrishLass (Jun 22, 2017)

Thanks DeeAnna!   I'll go through my formulas and recalculate. I know I don't have to worry with my aftershave formula, but I might need to make a slight tweak with my bug-off towelettes. 


IrishLass


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## BayBoy (Jun 22, 2017)

Great information! I'd like to send you guys samples when I get this product in it's finished state.


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## BayBoy (Jun 27, 2017)

By the way - I thought maybe IrishLass might have an answer to this question.

I'd like to experiment with adding aloe and glycerin to my formula. Once again, it's 50% alcohol, 25% witchazel and 25% distilled water. 

I'm at a bit of a loss though as to what the right proportions would be. Let's say I was making a 16 oz batch. How much do you think I should add according to your experience?

This is the aloe i'm using btw: http://www.lilyofthedesert.com/product/aloe-gelly/


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## IrishLass (Jun 27, 2017)

When I was experimenting with the amounts of them in mine, I just kept adjusting them based on my hubby's and son's feedback. They wanted just enough to keep the aftershave from feeling overly drying, but without it making their skin feel overly sticky. It took me a small handful of failures before I finally got it right to their liking, which for the glycerin ended up being 2.92% of my formula, and 19.88% for the aloe. 

What is the consistency of the aloe you are using? I see that it says 'Gelly' on the label, so I'm assuming it is a thick gelly and possibly sticky? I ask because the aloe that I use is the in the juice form which is quite liquid like water & non-sticky, and I basically use it in place of distilled water in my formula. If yours is too thick and sticky, you'll most likely want to use less than what I use in mine.

What I would do is start with this: 50% alcohol, 25% witch hazel, 17% distilled water, 5% aloe gelly and 3% glycerin, and then adjust from there depending on how it feels to your facial skin. For what it's worth, though, I wouldn't go any higher than 3% on the glycerin.

So, for a 16oz/454g batch, it would look like this, to start:

8oz/227g- alcohol
4oz/113g- witch hazel
2.72oz/77g- distilled water
.8oz/23g- aloe gel
.48oz/14g- glycerin


IrishLass


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## BayBoy (Jul 7, 2017)

Hey there!

This might sound like such a basic question but thought I'd ask anyway.

I'm working with two formulas for producing 24 oz of two different scents. I'm basing my formula on two test runs that came out successfully using 4 oz of my aftershave base each.

If I extend the number drops from the 4 oz experiment to 24 oz, I get the following.

Scent #1 (total 60 drops)
- 36 drops allspice
- 24 drops sandalwood

Scent #2 (total 96 drops)
- 36 drops allspice
- 24 drops sandalwood
- 18 drops lime
- 18 drops black pepper

My intent is for each blend to have the same intensity.

As you can see, F#2 contains 26 additional drops. My 4 oz tests both seemed to have the same intensity, though I'm realizing now that one has so much more oil than the other. 

Looking at this, I'd be curious to learn what other people's instincts have to say. Should I pull back on the allspice and sandalwood in F2? Or scale down the F2proportions equally until it’s down to 60 drops?


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## BayBoy (Jul 7, 2017)

IrishLass said:


> -49.71% 190-proof Everclear
> -12.28% SD 70 Alcohol
> -15.21% Witch Hazel
> -19.88% Aloe Vera Juice (George's-brand)
> -2.92% Vegetable Glycerin



By the way, do you mind me asking why your formula uses such specific decimals as opposed to round numbers (like 1 part this, 2 parts that)? I feel like the question may sound rhetorical to you, but I would be surprised if, for example, 15.21% Witch Hazel versus 15% would be detectable to the average human. Though maybe I'm exposing my ignorance.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 7, 2017)

Part of testing and perfecting a formula.  Tinker till you get it where you want it. Also depends on the accuracy of the scale you are using in most cases.


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## IrishLass (Jul 7, 2017)

BayBoy said:


> By the way, do you mind me asking why your formula uses such specific decimals as opposed to round numbers (like 1 part this, 2 parts that)? I feel like the question may sound rhetorical to you, but I would be surprised if, for example, 15.21% Witch Hazel versus 15% would be detectable to the average human. Though maybe I'm exposing my ignorance.


 
Ditto what Shari said- my numbers are based solely on the feedback my hubby and son gave me as I was tinkering with my formula, i.e., adding just a little bit more of 'this' or a little bit less of 'that' as per their instructions based on how the aftershave felt to their skin. 

When I tinker with formulas, I tend to like to use weight as my measurement as opposed to 'parts' for the sake of accuracy and repeatable consistency. I'm also pretty meticulous about taking notes/keeping track of the changing weights of 'this' or that' as I'm tinkering, and based on those notes, the particular decimals that I ended up with are nothing more than the end result of the final gram weights of each ingredient in what my hubby and son settled on as being their favorite version of my aftershave- plain and simple as that. If the decimals seem to be persnickety, it's because my hubby and son are persnickety when it comes to putting stuff on their skin. :razz: 


HTH!
IrishLass


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## BayBoy (Jul 8, 2017)

That makes total sense now. You're more technical than I


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