# Aftershave alcohol



## lillybella (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm going to attempt making some aftershaves. Does it matter the quality of the alcohol I buy? Do I need to buy an expensive vodka or does it matter?


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## gemsupthepoley (Jul 2, 2015)

I made some Bay Rum.  used rum (of course) and vodka, a touch of which hazel etc.  

This is the recipe

Vodka 8 oz
Dark Jamaican Rum (Cockspur), 4 oz
Bacardi 2oz
OVD (dark rum) 2oz
Witch Hazel 6 oz
Lime EO: 30 drops
Bay leaves dried: 20 
West Indies essential oil 20 drops but could add more to your liking.
Rosemary: one sprig fresh
Allspice 6-10 berries, cracked (I only had powdered/pinch)
Black Peppercorns 6-19, cracked (I went for 12)
2 sticks Cinnamon, broken in pieces
Ginger Root, chopped (1" piece)
4 cloves (or more if you want stronger clove smell)


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## lillybella (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you
How did it come out?

Does it matter what kind of alcohol you used?

I need to buy some.

Is the Bacardi gin or Volka?

What is the west indies EO?


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## Dorymae (Jul 2, 2015)

Bacardi is rum , rather good too. . .i think I'd rather drink it than use it in an aftershave!


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## cmzaha (Jul 2, 2015)

lillybella said:


> Thank you
> How did it come out?
> 
> Does it matter what kind of alcohol you used?
> ...


I am guessing this is the West Indies Bay EO, which is available at Liberty Natural Products for the best price I have found. Is this being made for personal use or for selling? From my understanding it cannot be sold without AFT licensing. Just curious


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## IrishLass (Jul 2, 2015)

I make an aftershave for my hubby and my son. I use both Everclear and Isopropyl Alcohol 70% in mine (plus aloe juice, witch hazel, glycerin and FO). I'd use all-Everclear as the alcohol, but they like the addition of the isopropyl in there (for whatever reason, they both like the smell of it). For what it's worth, I don't sell mine.


IrishLass


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## Dorymae (Jul 2, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> I make an aftershave for my hubby and my son. I use both Everclear and Isopropyl Alcohol 70% in mine (plus aloe juice, witch hazel, glycerin and FO). I'd use all-Everclear as the alcohol, but they like the addition of the isopropyl in there (for whatever reason, they both like the smell of it). For what it's worth, I don't sell mine.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Yours would be okay because of the addition of isopropyl. The idea is you can not drink it. (It would make you sick). If it were only everclear they worry an underage person might try to drink it.

The recipe posted is like a spiced drink! Lol, even with witch hazel added the toxicity is low and therefore someone might try to drink it.


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## lillybella (Jul 2, 2015)

Do I need AFT licensing then?


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## lillybella (Jul 2, 2015)

Everclear is banned in many states.


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## TeresaT (Jul 2, 2015)

lillybella said:


> Everclear is banned in many states.



My first thought when I saw this was, "Well, they DO used foul language in their songs."


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## lillybella (Jul 2, 2015)

:lolno: I think it's because of the high alcohol content - 150 proof.
This is why I wanted to know does the type of alcohol used depend on the proof?


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## Dorymae (Jul 2, 2015)

lillybella said:


> :lolno: I think it's because of the high alcohol content - 150 proof.
> This is why I wanted to know does the type of alcohol used depend on the proof?



Everclear is 190 proof. It is 95 % alcohol. At least that is what is sold in CT and AZ.

As for the type used, the ATF doesn't care about proof, it cares if it can be consumed. Using just everclear presents problems as it can be consumed.


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## lillybella (Jul 2, 2015)

Does a higher proof make for a better aftershave?


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## lillybella (Jul 2, 2015)

gemsupthepoley said:


> I made some Bay Rum.  used rum (of course) and vodka, a touch of which hazel etc.
> 
> This is the recipe
> 
> ...



so is this considered drinkable?


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## IrishLass (Jul 2, 2015)

lillybella said:


> Does a higher proof make for a better aftershave?


 

I don't know so much if it makes for a better aftershave, but the higher the alcohol content in it, the less need there is to have a preservative in it (a formula is considered to be 'self preserving' if the alcohol content is over a certain %). 


IrishLass


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## lillybella (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you IrishLass.
Do you know what that % is?


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## Dorymae (Jul 2, 2015)

lillybella said:


> so is this considered drinkable?



I would check. The ATF may very well consider it at risk to be drank. Personally I wouldn't drink it but a teen might.


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## cmzaha (Jul 3, 2015)

I would not sell anything with alcohol without written ATF approval, would not want to be accused of selling alcohol without a license and some after shave has a lot of alcohol. That is why I have shied away from making facial toners and after shave to sell. Only make it for us


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## MrsSpaceship (Jul 3, 2015)

gemsupthepoley said:


> I made some Bay Rum.  used rum (of course) and vodka, a touch of which hazel etc.
> 
> This is the recipe
> 
> ...


This sounds...Delicious.
this may call for some mixology outside of the soaping realm.


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## gemsupthepoley (Jul 3, 2015)

The home made Bay Rum is quite nice when finished.  It is short lived but then so is the shop bought stuff.  The West Indies Bay EO is from a completely different plant than the Bay leaves we use for cooking.  I'm not sure if the West Indies EO is fit to be ingested.  I also add witch hazle and I wouldn't drink that.

I do however plan on making one without the West Indies EO and witch hazle.  That one is going to be for personal use AND drinking.

Basically I think any clear spirit with little flavour would do so vodka or white rum.  Hope this helps.

The strength of alcohol and how much EO is in it will make a difference to the finished product as to wether it's a splash on (like the bay rum) or more of an EDT for application on non-shaved areas around the face.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 3, 2015)

Bay Oil is not good for you, not to drink anyway.  For the Bay Rum aftershave, it is important to get the Pimenta racemosa and not the Laurus nobilis the latter being the bay leaf used for cooking.


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## gemsupthepoley (Jul 3, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Bay Oil is not good for you, not to drink anyway.  For the Bay Rum aftershave, it is important to get the Pimenta racemosa and not the Laurus nobilis the latter being the bay leaf used for cooking.[/Q
> 
> That's what I meant!!!
> 
> ...


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## lillybella (Jul 3, 2015)

I can't find anything on ATF regulations. Anyone have a link?

Thank you all for the information :smile:


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## lillybella (Jul 3, 2015)

gemsupthepoley said:


> The strength of alcohol and how much EO is in it will make a difference to the finished product as to wether it's a splash on (like the bay rum) or more of an EDT for application on non-shaved areas around the face.



What does EDT mean, please?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 3, 2015)

lillybella said:


> What does EDT mean, please?



Eau de Toilette - aftershave has a low % of scent, and there are increasing concentrations - 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfume#Concentration

Parfum or extrait, in English perfume extract, or simply perfume: 15–40% (IFRA: typical 20%) aromatic compounds
Esprit de Parfum (ESdP): 15–30% aromatic compounds, a seldom used strength concentration in between EdP and perfume
Eau de Parfum (EdP), Parfum de Toilette (PdT): 10–20% (typical ~15%) aromatic compounds, sometimes listed as "eau de perfume" or "millésime." Parfum de Toilette is a less common term that is generally analogous to Eau de Parfum.
Eau de Toilette (EdT): 5–15% (typical ~10%) aromatic compounds
Eau de Cologne (EdC): Chypre citrus type perfumes with 3–8% (typical ~5%) aromatic compounds. "Original Eau de Cologne" is a registered trademark.
Perfume mist: 3–8% aromatic compounds (typical non-alcohol solvent)
Splash (EdS)[citation needed] and aftershave: 1–3% aromatic compounds. "EdS" is a registered trademark.[citation needed]


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## lillybella (Jul 3, 2015)

Gentleman, this is very helpful! thank you so much.
so

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftershave

an aftershave with containing only 1 to 3% alcohol wouldn't need approval by the ATF at this %. 

Would it then need a preservative?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 3, 2015)

Those % are the scent - I make about 80% of the product alcohol, with the other 20% being the scent and then distilled water to make up the delta.


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## cmzaha (Jul 3, 2015)

lillybella said:


> I can't find anything on ATF regulations. Anyone have a link?
> 
> Thank you all for the information :smile:


You have to do a lot of digging on the site and then it is not easy to interpret.
Would be easier, although most likely time consuming, to call them. At least they could give you an idea as to where to start. I remember my Brother in law had oodles of fun getting his gun license so he could sell.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 3, 2015)

There are two kinds of Everclear -- 151 proof (75.5% ethanol) and 190 proof (95% ethanol). Depends on the laws in the state where it is purchased.

More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)

Bear in mind that the alcohol percentages for Everclear and other drinkable alcohol products are based on measuring by VOLUME not by weight.

More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_by_volume

***

As far as ethanol as a preservative -- 

"...Ethanol (not vodka, instead use 190 Everclear alcohol or skin safe cosmetic use denatured alcohol) anything containing 20-25% ethanol  is self preserving.  Alcohol is astringent so not a great add if you want a moisturising lotion...."

More: http://www.makingskincare.com/preservatives/

You'll find other sources that say 15% ethanol is self preserving, but I don't buy that. Vinegar bacteria can exist in the higher-proof wines (around 14% to 16% by volume). That tells me that 15% ethanol content is not a reliable preservative.


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## KristaY (Jul 3, 2015)

I highly recommend starting with your state liquor agency. Every state has different laws when it comes to alcohol so that would be your best bet. In AZ they're very accessible by phone and very good at answering questions.


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## lillybella (Jul 3, 2015)

Everything gets so complicated!


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## MtnSoaper (Jul 4, 2015)

I've been looking into the legalities as well. Check out this link:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title27/27cfrv1_02.tpl#0

especially the following:




> §1.62 Use of distilled spirits or wine for experimental purposes and in manufacture of nonbeverage products.
> The use of distilled spirits or wine for experimental purposes and in the manufacture of (a) medicinal, pharmaceutical, or antiseptic products, including prescriptions compounded by retail druggists; (b) toilet preparations; (c) flavoring extracts, syrups, or food products; or (d) scientific, chemical, mechanical, or industrial products, provided such products are unfit for beverage use, is regarded as “industrial,” and will be excluded from any application of the term “nonindustrial use.”


 
I'm not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that since Everclear is tax-paid, and perfumes/ colognes are nonbeverage products, you wouldn't need a permit. . . at least from the Feds. On the state level, it gets rather complicated as each state has it's own laws. I'm still trying to understand NYS but plan on contacting someone at some point. 

As for selling products made with SDA, it is my understanding that you need a permit because it is purchased tax-free and therefor needs a paper trail to verify that it is not being used for beverage related products. I gather that SDA can easily be un-denatured in the right hands.


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## Dorymae (Jul 5, 2015)

The key words are "unfit for beverage use".

From the recipe posted I'm not sure they would consider it unfit to drink. With the small amount of witch hazel (which is a very low toxicity to begin with) they may well call the concoction a drink.


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## Lion Of Judah (Jul 5, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> I am guessing this is the West Indies Bay EO, which is available at Liberty Natural Products for the best price I have found. Is this being made for personal use or for selling? From my understanding it cannot be sold without AFT licensing. Just curious



you're right about this. i found it out when i was trying to formulate my body spray with vodka. and you also have to add a product to your alcohol [the name eludes me at the moment] so it's not digestible by humans.

*     Beverage Alcohol & Cosmetics - What's the Law? *



We  get a lot of questions from those making perfumes, linen sprays or  other cosmetics using drinking (beverage) alcohol like Vodka. The law  regarding beverage alcohol in cosmetics and toiletries is finite. You  may NOT legally sell skincare products manufactured with beverage  alcohol. 

The Alcohol,  Tobacco and Firearms rules concerning the use of alcohol in cosmetics  are straightforward and fairly easy to understand.

The first *ATF* rule is that beverage alcohol *MAY NOT BE USED*  in cosmetics. Technically, the ATF considers you to be selling beverage  alcohol without a license, proper reporting and payment of taxes.

The FDA also has specific rules about the use of alcohol. The *FDA* rule is straightforward: Bitrex must be added to prevent ingestion and accidental poisoning with no exceptions.

        : http://bathbodysupply.blogspot.com/2009/10/beverage-alcohol-cosmetics-whats-law.html

so if you are going to make it for personal use then i would say / think that it should be ok, but other than that you may have a problem. another option that may be open to you is "perfumers alcohol" , i myself am looking into it as an option when making a product to sell to consumers.


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## lillybella (Jul 5, 2015)

MtnSoaper said:


> I've been looking into the legalities as well. Check out this link:
> 
> http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title27/27cfrv1_02.tpl#0
> 
> ...



Thank you so much!

What is SDA? I just found it = Specially denatured alcohol (SDA)

Does selling the aftershave ONLY online make a difference?

What about recipes for alcohol free aftershaves?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 6, 2015)

Do you have any recipes for alcohol free aftershaves?


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## cmzaha (Jul 6, 2015)

lillybella said:


> Thank you so much!
> 
> What is SDA? I just found it = Specially denatured alcohol (SDA)
> 
> ...


What would make you even ask if selling online only would make a difference. Selling online does not make one invisible to government agencies or give us the go ahead to sell illegally. On top of that you are then dealing with interstate commerce


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## lillybella (Jul 6, 2015)

:???: 
cmzaha, are you always this nasty?


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## MtnSoaper (Jul 6, 2015)

gemsupthepoley said:


> I made some Bay Rum. used rum (of course) and vodka, a touch of which hazel etc.
> 
> This is the recipe
> 
> ...


 

Found this and thought it might be relevant (for those interested in jumping through the hoops needed to sell):



> §20.102 Bay rum, alcoholado, or alcoholado-type toilet waters.
> All bay rum, alcoholado, or alcoholado-type toilet waters made with specially denatured alcohol shall contain:
> (a) 1.10 grains of benzyldiethyl (2:6-xylylcarbamoyl methyl) ammonium benzoate (Bitrex (THS-839)) in each gallon of finished product in addition to any of this material used as a denaturant in the specially denatured alcohol, or
> (b) 32 grains of tartar emetic in each gallon of finished product, or
> (c) 0.5 avoirdupois ounce of sucrose octaacetate in each gallon of finished product.


Source:http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...6&mc=true&node=pt27.1.20&rgn=div5#sp27.1.20.a


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 6, 2015)

lillybella said:


> :???:
> cmzaha, are you always this nasty?




I think she's been very helpful in the thread and a little exasperated in the last post. 

From all the information and links so far provided, what was it in there that made you think that selling online only would make a difference? I've not read the links as it is not required for me (on this side of the pond we have our own hoops to jump through) but it might be easier for others to help if you specify what points in the laws you are referencing when you ask further questions so that they don't think you are referring to a different place


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## cmzaha (Jul 6, 2015)

lillybella said:


> :???:
> cmzaha, are you always this nasty?


Sorry not being nasty, just wondering why such a question would be asked. Sales on the internet are not above following the rules. and I happen to be a stickler for rules. If you think you cannot be found if doing only internet sales one could have a rude awakening. A few years ago we had a large order come in and it turned out to be an inspector from the FDA. We never knew if she just wanted the products herself or if they were actually tested and inspected. Never heard back from them 
FDA will send out a warning letter, ATF can throw your backside in jail for selling alcohol illegally and I asked such a question since there were already several answers to the question
prior to your asking


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## lillybella (Jul 6, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> Sorry not being nasty, just wondering why such a question would be asked. Sales on the internet are not above following the rules. and I happen to be a stickler for rules. If you think you cannot be found if doing only internet sales one could have a rude awakening. A few years ago we had a large order come in and it turned out to be an inspector from the FDA. We never knew if she just wanted the products herself or if they were actually tested and inspected. Never heard back from them
> FDA will send out a warning letter, ATF can throw your backside in jail for selling alcohol illegally and I asked such a question since there were already several answers to the question
> prior to your asking



You ASSUMED that was WHY I was asking. It was NOT at all.


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## froggybean37 (Jul 6, 2015)

This post is perfectly timed as I just had a special request for aftershave and am starting to look into it. I'm embarrassed to say I have no idea where to start! The client wants an astringent type aftershave (so not a lotion), so I was thinking of also going the alcohol/witch hazel route, would you need something like PS80 to incorporate EO/FO? What % of alcohol : witch hazel : distilled H20 is generally a good starting place?


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## kchaystack (Jul 6, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> Sorry not being nasty, just wondering why such a question would be asked. Sales on the internet are not above following the rules. and I happen to be a stickler for rules. If you think you cannot be found if doing only internet sales one could have a rude awakening. A few years ago we had a large order come in and it turned out to be an inspector from the FDA. We never knew if she just wanted the products herself or if they were actually tested and inspected. Never heard back from them
> FDA will send out a warning letter, ATF can throw your backside in jail for selling alcohol illegally and I asked such a question since there were already several answers to the question
> prior to your asking



I did not see anything nasty at all in the question, and you are quite right to point out that if a sale crosses state lines not only could it be a state felony, but it becomes a federal felony.  I have family members with personal experience about how bad that can mess with your life.


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## Dorymae (Jul 6, 2015)

lillybella said:


> You ASSUMED that was WHY I was asking. It was NOT at all.



Then to be fair, why were you asking?  If it was because you we're not sure if the rules applied to internet sales, she covered that. Honestly I don't believe she was being mean, just trying to give you the facts. Most of us do not tippy toe around subjects here, and we rarely sugar coat things. 

You ASSUMED she was trying to be mean. This is the problem with the internet, as you can not see facial expressions, and body language when people reply. However, most people here are very helpful and certainly not trying to hurt your feelings.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 6, 2015)

My post from earlier seems to have gone walkies. But as the regulations have been pretty well covered, I was also wondering what exact part of the regulations led to that question. Having read the information and links already provided, something in there might well have sparked the idea and it's worthwhile posting exact parts of the regulations that you read that you are then questioning further, to make sure that people don't think you're referring to a different place


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## MtnSoaper (Jul 6, 2015)

froggybean37 said:


> I'm embarrassed to say I have no idea where to start! The client wants an astringent type aftershave (so not a lotion), so I was thinking of also going the alcohol/witch hazel route, would you need something like PS80 to incorporate EO/FO? What % of alcohol : witch hazel : distilled H20 is generally a good starting place?


 
To start, my understanding is that using an alcohol based witch hazel or denatured alcohol will require a permit if you are indeed selling this item.
(I'm still trying to find a reliable & definitive answer about using high proof consumable alcohol, but I'll save that for yet another post.)

As for the formulation, I would keep the EO/FO low as aftershave is applied to the face (near the nose).  I'd start with 1-2% and see how you like that.  PS80 may not be needed if the alcohol is high enough to solubilize the EO/FO.  A little glycerin would be nice--I'd try 5% to start; you don't want it to be sticky.  As for water--check the % in your alcohol base.  I'd be concerned with dropping the alcohol much below 75% as things may go cloudy.  And if they do, readjust with more alcohol--and keep good notes.

Hope this didn't digress too far.


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## IrishLass (Jul 6, 2015)

Yep, if the alcohol is high enough, there's no need for an emulsifier.

Here's my own recipe for an astringent aftershave to help give you an idea of some good percentages to work off of (at least they are good percentages to my hubby and son, whose feedback guided me). I don't sell this of course, by the way. I only make it for my hubby and for my son for private/home use in small 3oz. batches at a time each as needed, but for whatever light it might shed in helping you to formulate your own, it contains:

50% 190-proof Everclear
20% Aloe vera juice (the George's brand from my health-food store)
15% witch hazel (which already contains some alcohol in it)
12% SD70 alcohol (hubby and son insisted on it's inclusion because they like the smell of it in the aftershave, otherwise I would have left it out and used Everclear as my total alcohol amount)
3% vegetable glycerin

The above percentages total to 100%. I add my fragrance as an extra. As MtnSoaper said, it's best to keep the scent low, but thankfully, not much is needed to get a good scent throw in aftershave. Depending on the FO, I add between .5% to 1% as per the weight of my formula (no emulsifier needed). 

IrishLass


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## snappyllama (Jul 6, 2015)

Teg, I've fiddled around with a recipe for an aftershave that's primarily witch hazel with various humectants and poly to emulsify the fo. I seem to have misplaced my notes on my computer . Grr. Suffice to say, I wasn't really happy with my outcome... It kept looking cloudy and felt either too sticky or not moistening enough. I rejected a couple dozen variations. I'll look for my handwritten notes to post them to at least help folks avoid repeating my failures. 

My storage area (where my handwritten notes ought to be hiding) is in the midst of a house remodel. Hopefully I'll be able to get to it soon. 

I'd love to hear anyone else's recipe or at least a good direction for an alcohol free one.


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## lillybella (Jul 7, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Yep, if the alcohol is high enough, there's no need for an emulsifier.
> 
> Here's my own recipe for an astringent aftershave to help give you an idea of some good percentages to work off of (at least they are good percentages to my hubby and son, whose feedback guided me). I don't sell this of course, by the way. I only make it for my hubby and for my son for private/home use in small 3oz. batches at a time each as needed, but for whatever light it might shed in helping you to formulate your own, it contains:
> 
> ...



I was confused & I am still confused. 

My interpretation: the above recipe for an astringent aftershave could be sold without approval by the ATF.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 7, 2015)

In theory, but subject to state law, certainly - which is why online could actually be a nightmare for you in some ways. 

As has been said, one way to be 100% certain is to call them up and ask them


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## lillybella (Jul 7, 2015)

I am going to call today.


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## cmzaha (Jul 7, 2015)

IrishLass makes it just for her families private use. You can make whatever you want as long as you are not selling it. Even from AFT do not take word of mouth to the bank. If you decide to sell you want everything in writing. Word of mouth will usually not stand up in court


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## IrishLass (Jul 7, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> IrishLass makes it just for her families private use. You can make whatever you want as long as you are not selling it. Even from AFT do not take word of mouth to the bank. If you decide to sell you want everything in writing. Word of mouth will usually not stand up in court


 

Ditto what Carolyn said. I don't sell it. I make the aftershave exclusively for my hubby and son only (who are so incredibly spoiled to have products designed just for them! ). 


IrishLass


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## lillybella (Jul 7, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Ditto what Carolyn said. I don't sell it. I make the aftershave exclusively for my hubby and son only (who are so incredibly spoiled to have products designed just for them! ).
> 
> 
> IrishLass



Yes I understand this.

I just sent an email to the the ATF with a couple of recipe templates & my questions & concerns; so I can receive a written reply. I will post it when I receive it.


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## MtnSoaper (Jul 7, 2015)

lillybella said:


> Yes I understand this.
> 
> I just sent an email to the the ATF with a couple of recipe templates & my questions & concerns; so I can receive a written reply. I will post it when I receive it.


 
I look forward to hearing their reply. I'm waiting to hear back from NYS (I work backwards. After all, who cares what the Feds have to say if the state poo-poos it!).

But until them, how about a little light reading:

Alcohol in the US is regulated for a number of reason but the most important is for taxation; the government wants their money. Anyone planning to sell alcohol for human consumption needs a license. This goes for the wineries, the breweries, the distilleries, the restaurants, and the retail outlets. The government does allow (tax and permit free) the head of a household to make a limited amount of wine or beer for consumption on the property on which it was made, as long as the head of household is at least 21 years of age and provided they don’t make more than (I believe) 200 gallons per year. (Don’t quote me on that amount. I make my own wine and beer but have never even come close to that amount!)

You also need a permit/ license to sell non-consumable products (lotion, aftershave, cologne, etc.) made with denatured alcohol. I believe you are allowed to buy, without a permit, up to 5 gallons per year for formulation—but, you can’t turn around and sell it without the proper permit. Why? Because of taxes. The government, by giving you the permit to sell, is allowing you to buy tax-free alcohol. They want the paper trail so they can make sure that every drop you buy is going into your non-consumable product. You see, denatured alcohol can be distilled back into a consumable product which would bypass the taxes they require for consumable alcohol.

Rubbing alcohol and alcohol-based witch hazel from the drug store would be off limits as well. Why? The paper trail has ended with the drug store (there’s no record that you purchased it and didn’t use it to make bathtub gin).

The confusion for me arises with this:
1. The government has very strict laws for the manufacture and sale of consumable (tax-paid) alcohol.
2. The government has very strict laws for the manufacture and sale of non-consumable (tax-free) alcohol.
3. I have yet to find any guidelines for using a consumable (tax-paid) alcohol in a non-consumable product. After all, you’re paying the taxes on a product that you could, through the proper channels, make tax-free.
4. Marie Gale implies in her book that vodka and Everclear can be used in products for sale. . . . Whether or not there’s a permit required is the question (at least for me).

So why do I want to use Everclear and not perfumers or denatured alcohol? It’s cheaper. Even with the hefty taxes that are built into the price, it’s cheaper than buying denatured alcohol online and paying the hazmat fees.

Please, if anyone can clarify any of this or set me right, please do so. This is all in the interest of polite discussion!


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## lsg (Jul 7, 2015)

SaveOnScents sells perfumers alcohol.  They explain in detail, the requirements.  If you are not reselling and order less than 5 gallons in a calendar year, then you don't need a permit.  If you order less than 5 gallons in a calendar year and use this alcohol in a recipe with other ingredients to make after shave or a product you sell, then you can file a user's permit.

http://www.saveonscents.com/product_info.php/products_id/3572


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## MidwestSoaper (Jul 13, 2015)

MtnSoaper said:


> I've been looking into the legalities as well. Check out this link:
> 
> http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title27/27cfrv1_02.tpl#0
> 
> ...



The ATF issues permits through the Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) http://www.ttb.gov/ for anyone that sells a product made with alcohol regardless of whether you use everclear, rum, vodka, or one of the SDA formulas.  SDA contains chemicals that make it nonpotable and it cannot be made drinkable.  

TTB has acceptable formulas to follow if you are making perfume, aftershave, toner, splashes, lotion, linen sprays; essentially anything that contains alcohol.  If you do not follow their guidelines for your product, then you have to submit a sample of each product to their designated lab and that formula has to be approved prior to offering it for sale to the public.

There are 2 types of permits that apply to bath and body businesses.  One is a users permit for anyone purchasing alcohol to manufacture products for sale.  The other is a dealers permit for those selling alcohol to manufacturers of products containing alcohol.

Federal laws regarding distribution of alcoholic products apply to all states and all size businesses.  Your state, county or local municipality may have additional regulations or restrictions.  

Also keep in mind that since alcohol is classed as a hazardous substance, there are additional federal regulatory agencies involved such as DOT, USPS, FAA.  For example to mail perfumes there are flashpoint and volume restrictions that may prevent using the USPS or sending the package by air.  What you cannot send via regular mail, you have to send via ground transportation and follow appropriate package markings required by DOT.  hth


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## lillybella (Jul 14, 2015)

I see lots of shops on Etsy & Amazon selling aftershaves (with alcohol) & shipping via USPS essential oils. BB listed a recipe for an aftershave:
http://soapqueen.tumblr.com/post/80273451460/from-now-until-march-26th-well-showcase

contains  Isopropyl Alcohol - does this count as alcohol?

She adds a note:
**NOTE: If you plan on selling your aftershave, leave the rum out. Even though you can’t drink it, you wouldn’t want to run afoul of liquor distribution laws.
She's saying that by leaving the Rum out this is ok to sell.

This is so confusing & complicated. I can't believe (more like I don't want to believe) that so many shops are violating the ATF requirements.


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