# liquid soap has white foam



## Persofit (Mar 11, 2016)

Hello 
I made a batch of soap with 500g olive oil, 200g coconut, 150 castor oil.
I used 164g KOH ( with 494g water for KOH ) my KOH has a 100% purity, 
and calculated with 5% superfat. 

It came to trace just fine and then i left it sit in oven 6 hours in residual heat and then it looked nice and translucid; so i go and dilute it with 800g water with borax solution of 33% and i get a thick white foam on top with beautiful soap underneath.

My question is can i do something to transform the foam into the nice soap i have underneath or do i just chuck it?


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 11, 2016)

Persofit said:


> Hello
> I made a batch of soap with 500g olive oil, 200g coconut, 150 castor oil.
> I used 164g KOH ( with 494g water for KOH ) my KOH has a 100% purity,
> and calculated with 5% superfat.
> ...



The foam is actually undissolved soap. If you add water in small amounts, mix well and allow ample time between additions, you'll find the thick floating layer will gradually get thinner. It might take a while to carefully get the soap to just the right point. The borax also helps dissolve the soap and form a thick liquid at the same time, but don't overdo it.

Your KOH is not 100% purity. Sometimes they leave out the moisture in reporting the purity because the water content is assumed by people familiar with the product. Unless a batch has been analyzed, neither you nor your supplier knows the strength of the KOH. It's standard to assume 90% (much lower than NaOH), so there's a box you can check for that in Soapcalc.


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## Persofit (Mar 11, 2016)

Thank you I am trying to add water to it now and cooking slowly. Theres not a lack of KOH, is that possible?


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## Susie (Mar 11, 2016)

Actually, there is indeed a "lack of KOH" for the following reasons.  By the way, that is not foam, it is fat.  

Firstly, the KOH you bought was not 100% purity.  What was in the bottle is nothing but "KOH", meaning it did not have any other chemicals, but it always absorbs a little moisture.  Use the 90% purity click box.  This should be closer to the truth.

Secondly, you used 5% superfat.  Liquid soap really does not like to have more than 3% superfat unless you use something like polysorbate 80 to emulsify the fat.

Thirdly, you "neutralized" with borax.  Which further raised how much fat you have that is not saponified by KOH.  You do not need to neutralize a soap that has a superfat.  Only lye excess soaps need neutralization.

So, to fix this batch, what I would do is to mix about 50-60 g KOH with triple that amount of water, put the soap back on some heat, and add the KOH/water mixture about 20 g at the time (about 15-30 minutes between additions once the soap is good and warm) until you start seeing that fat layer decrease.  Once you see it improving, reduce the additions to about 5 g at the time.  Stop right before the last is completely gone and allow it to come back to room temperature.


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## Persofit (Mar 11, 2016)

Susie said:


> Actually, there is indeed a "lack of KOH" for the following reasons.  By the way, that is not foam, it is fat.
> 
> Firstly, the KOH you bought was not 100% purity.  What was in the bottle is nothing but "KOH", meaning it did not have any other chemicals, but it always absorbs a little moisture.  Use the 90% purity click box.  This should be closer to the truth.
> 
> ...



I will do that and let you know how it turns out


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 11, 2016)

Susie said:


> Actually, there is indeed a "lack of KOH" for the following reasons.  By the way, that is not foam, it is fat.
> 
> Firstly, the KOH you bought was not 100% purity.  What was in the bottle is nothing but "KOH", meaning it did not have any other chemicals, but it always absorbs a little moisture.  Use the 90% purity click box.  This should be closer to the truth.
> 
> ...



I'm pretty sure that isn't fat at all. With a high oleic soap, if I hit it with the stick blender with the initial water addition, the soap ends up very well dispersed. When there is not enough water to fully dissolve it, I get a layer of soap goop on top that looks exactly like that, with clear saturated liquid beneath it as pictured. The top layer disappears as I dilute further.

Granted, there could be an issue from assuming the high KOH purity and using the lye discount, but at this stage I think it's just not diluted enough.

Borax is actually alkaline. It won't break the soap like neutralizing with acid can, freeing up fatty acids. In fact it is a multipurpose additive for LS. It acts as a pH buffer, plus it decreases the amount of water you need to dissolve the soap, which adds delightful thickness, and it acts as an emulsifier. It might actually help keep the superfat from separating.


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## Susie (Mar 11, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I'm pretty sure that isn't fat at all. With a high oleic soap, if I hit it with the stick blender with the initial water addition, the soap ends up very well dispersed. When there is not enough water to fully dissolve it, I get a layer of soap goop on top that looks exactly like that, with clear saturated liquid beneath it as pictured. The top layer disappears as I dilute further.
> 
> Granted, there could be an issue from assuming the high KOH purity and using the lye discount, but at this stage I think it's just not diluted enough.



I have had undiluted soap assume many appearances also.  However, that looks to me like soap separation.  Especially in the presence of too high a superfat.  The OP is trying my solution, and I really hope they post the results.  




topofmurrayhill said:


> Borax is actually alkaline. It won't break the soap like neutralizing with acid can, freeing up fatty acids. In fact it is a multipurpose additive for LS. It acts as a pH buffer, plus it decreases the amount of water you need to dissolve the soap, which adds delightful thickness, and it acts as an emulsifier. It might actually help keep the superfat from separating.



I understand that this is what borax is supposed to do, however, in the presence of too high a superfat, exacerbation of the separation is always my result.  If you can help me achieve different results with the use of borax, I am more than willing to learn.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 11, 2016)

Susie said:


> I understand that this is what borax is supposed to do, however, in the presence of too high a superfat, exacerbation of the separation is always my result.  If you can help me achieve different results with the use of borax, I am more than willing to learn.



It sounded like you were describing it having the effect of adding acid, which could certainly free up more fattiness. As neutralizing agents go, Borax is unique in not working that way.

For me the most striking effect is how much soap goes into solution with just Borax instead of water. If you add some to a fairly viscous soap a little before full dilution, you can end up with an even thicker liquid.

The last time I wanted to decrease the superfat of a LS, it wasn't separated but adding KOH increased the amount of soap to the point that some came out of solution and the white foam returned. Instead of water, I added Borax and the excess soap dissolved until I had a thick, clear liquid.


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## Persofit (Mar 11, 2016)

Susie - This is what i get after adding KOH and letting sit for 2 hours ( i didnt add any water yet ). I will see what it looks like tomorrow morning. Its fun expirementing with soap. 
I will try this recipe again sunday.


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## Susie (Mar 11, 2016)

Did you mix the KOH with some water?  If so, how much KOH and how much water?


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## Persofit (Mar 11, 2016)

Susie said:


> Did you mix the KOH with some water?  If so, how much KOH and how much water?



150g water to 50g KOH


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## Susie (Mar 11, 2016)

Add more water in small amounts about every 15-30 minutes while it is over heat. (going with TOMH's suggestion) I would probably add no more than 60 g at the time.  When you see only a single lump left, stop diluting.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 11, 2016)

Persofit said:


> Susie - This is what i get after adding KOH and letting sit for 2 hours ( i didnt add any water yet ). I will see what it looks like tomorrow morning. Its fun expirementing with soap.
> I will try this recipe again sunday.



It needed more water but you added more soap because the KOH saponified your superfat. Now it will need even more water, but it's fine since the superfat was high anyway.


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## Persofit (Mar 12, 2016)

Ok I added some water with soup spoon of Borax and it was still hot when I left for a skiing weekend but I brought a small sample with me and it is beatiful amber color and clear. Once cooled off it is thick and gives good foam. I absolutely love it.

Thanks everyone.
I am going to make a new test batch of this recipe and see if I get it right.


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## Persofit (Mar 13, 2016)

Hello here is the results after adding KOH and dilution water. Its beautiful and perfect gel thickness. I read once that if the soap has Borax in it you have to leave it sit for 2 weeks before using it, ( is that nonsense or correct? )

Thanks for all your help, everybody.


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## desiredcreations (Aug 22, 2022)

So glad I found this discussion. Made my first LS batch; had all kinds of strange effects,  including the foaming, applesauce stage, then a pudding stage that lasted for hours. I start playing with the batter, gradually adding more KOH and water. That finally worked. Then I added some borax in solution, just in case.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 22, 2022)

If you finally got the soap to be the way you wanted it to be, why did you then add borax?


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 22, 2022)

desiredcreations said:


> I start playing with the batter, gradually adding more KOH and water. That finally worked. Then I added some borax in solution, just in case.


Good thinking! I'm wondering if you learned those tips from Catherine Failor's book on making liquid soap?


DeeAnna said:


> If you finally got the soap to be the way you wanted it to be, why did you then add borax?


@DeeAnna  I think I understand your challenge -- why neutralize right after adding KOH solution?

@desiredcreations Since you are new to making LS, in order to help us to help you, please take some time to review the LS Tutorials -- especially the Shampoo step by step process with pictures -- which may help you to better understand the process. You may ever discover for yourself where your batch went awry.

*BASIC BEGINNER LIQUID SOAP*

Keep in mind that there are as many different ways to make LS as there are LS-ers. Alaiyna B's approach is basic as of 2011, the day it was published. There have been several innovations since then that are also good to know.

I have suggestions for you, but it would be helpful to both me and others if you would first go to the *RECIPE FEEDBACK FORUM* 

Please post your recipe, or better yet, the printout of your recipe if you have it available, along with your method, including clarity test, superfat (if any) and any other details that would help us to troubleshoot your batch.

Don't worry if I don't get back to you today. Please take the time in the interim to do the above so we are on the same page and then we can troubleshoot from there.


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## desiredcreations (Aug 22, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Good thinking! I'm wondering if you learned those tips from Catherine Failor's book on making liquid soap?
> 
> @DeeAnna  I think I understand your challenge -- why neutralize right after adding KOH solution?
> 
> ...


Thank you, Zany, for the info and the link. I must have reviewed a couple dozen articles and videos on LS making before making my first batch. My core problem is I have always viewed recipes and directions as suggestions or guidelines.  And I had the hubris to start by creating my own recipe.

I end up learning by mistakes and sweating over them. But ****, it was such a fun adventure; adding a bit of this and that, testing reactions, heating/cooling, clarity testing, seeing the differences between well water and distilled, etc. At heart, I'm a mad scientist. 

I wish I had a recipe to post. I do have notes and progression photos/videos, since the adventure took over 24 hours. 

I can't wait to make more LS.



DeeAnna said:


> If you finally got the soap to be the way you wanted it to be, why did you then add borax?


I really had no idea how much KOH I had added, so I thought it safer to borax it up a little.

One curious thing happened while cooking, the batter never changed past the thick custard stage. It was always easy to stir with a spatula. I wish I knew what I did.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 22, 2022)

desiredcreations said:


> I must have reviewed a couple dozen articles and videos on LS making before making my first batch.


I think you'll appreciate this. Starting in 2004, I read Catherine Failor's book on making LS, THREE TIMES ! and even made out a "cheat sheet" to follow before making my first batch... which was a total failure!!! I swore I'd never make LS again!

 Then, about a year later, I found a tried & true (hint, hint LOL) recipe that worked! The key to success was this -- *Water to Lye Ratio* 3:1





I then ran all of Failor's recipes through SoapCalc. Without exception, they all had that 3:1 ratio. I sometimes use 2:1 ratio but I know I'll be risking the batch bloating up and out of the container with some FAs.


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## AliOop (Aug 22, 2022)

desiredcreations said:


> I really had no idea how much KOH I had added, so I thought it safer to borax it up a little.


That is not a safe way to make soap. Please use a soap calculator, or run the calculations by hand, to determine the correct amount of KOH for the specific oils that you are using.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 22, 2022)

desiredcreations said:


> My core problem is I have always viewed recipes and directions as suggestions or guidelines.  And I had the hubris to start by creating my own recipe


I would never discourage that quality in a soapmaker. However, to save time, money and experiencing failure after failure, I learned, whether in soapmaking or cooking, to make a small batch of a tried & true recipe as written and tweak from there.



desiredcreations said:


> I wish I had a recipe to post. I do have notes and progression photos/videos, since the adventure took over 24 hours.


With all due respect, Grasshopper, the problem with not having a recipe to share is that it makes it next to impossible for the rest of us to troubleshoot.

And even if you did post the full 24-hour adventure, with pictures and videos, speaking just for me, I may or may not be able to follow your thinking, much less take the time required to write a meaningfull response and all the reasons why such-and-such is so.

I hope that makes sense? Just imagine being on the receiving end of such a post. 



desiredcreations said:


> I can't wait to make more LS.





desiredcreations said:


> One curious thing happened while cooking, the batter never changed past the thick custard stage. It was always easy to stir with a spatula. I wish I knew what I did.






At this point, my crystal ball is useless. So your guess is as good as mine... or anyone else's.

My suggestion: You obviously took good notes. Impressive!  Why not make a small (12-16 oz. or 300 - 500g) duplicate of your first batch? Enter all the info into *SoapCalc* ...starting with the set-up in post #22. (I assume you do know how to use an online calc, yes?)

Before actually making the batch, post the recipe on the Recipe Feedback Forum linked in Post #18 for feedback from the community.

ETA: I just fixed that link so it's working now.

ETA #2: I just reread the original post. Both Top of Murray Hill and Susie were able to make educated guesses as to why the OP's batch looked like it did. They had different solutions. A successful result was reached by the input from both of them.  

@DeeAnna The info about using Borax in Posts #4 and #6 is good to know and what I would have responded to your query. Borax has other attributes beyond "neutralizing".  I'm guessing that's where @desiredcreations  got the idea of adding some.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 22, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> @DeeAnna  I think I understand your challenge -- why neutralize right after adding KOH solution?
> ... the info ... is ... what I would have responded to your query. Borax has other attributes beyond "neutralizing". I'm guessing that's where @desiredcreations got the idea of adding some.



I really wasn't addressing you, Zany, nor was I issuing a challenge to anyone -- I was simply asking a question and hoping DesiredCreations would explain their thinking. I'd sincerely like to have a conversation directly with this person rather than have you jump in with your guesses about what this person is thinking. But I see you've got the situation well in hand so I'll mosey on.


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## desiredcreations (Aug 22, 2022)

AliOop said:


> That is not a safe way to make soap. Please use a soap calculator, or run the calculations by hand, to determine the correct amount of KOH for the specific oils that you are using.


I fully appreciate that. My original recipe was based on using a soap calc. I think my KOH was the main culprit. It was a premix liquid and I only tested to make sure it could float an egg - no precision. 

No worries. I had lots of fun and learned a lot thru my mistakes. I learn much better that way. 



Zany_in_CO said:


> And even if you did post the full 24-hour adventure, with pictures and videos, speaking just for me, I may or may not be able to follow your thinking,


LOL! I'm nearly positive I couldn't follow my thinking.



Zany_in_CO said:


> I think you'll appreciate this. Starting in 2004, I read Catherine Failor's book on making LS, THREE TIMES ! and even made out a "cheat sheet" to follow before making my first batch... which was a total failure!!!


Zany, I am puzzled how it could have been a failure. When my batter wasn't acting according to plan, I figured the ratios between fats, water and lye were off. So like when a washing machine gets unbalanced, I tried shifting the load. I could tell the batter was too fat-heavy, so while it was cooking, I gradually added more lye, then more water. Then, I'd periodically clarity test it. I beat that batter into submission!


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