# Soap going rancid and I cannot figure out why.



## Jen74 (Oct 8, 2022)

Hi everyone. So I've been making soap for about two years  now. I make my own soap because I'm allergic to SO many things. I have an illness called Mast Cell Activation disease, and I react to lots of chemicals and stuff. The soap I've been making that seems to work for me is made with the following ingredients and I use soapcalc to get the measurements.

Palm oil- 725.75 grams
Palm kernel oil- 181.44 grams
Distilled water - 265.73 grams 
Sodium hydroxide - 130.88 grams 
Few drops of ROE

I usually make the HP soap . What makes no sense is that I've had times where it's fine, yet the last two batches I've made went rancid within two to three weeks after making them before their even done curing. I don't change anything. I use to think maybe it was humidity so ran a fan and dehumidifier in the room. I always make sure nothing ever gets contaminated and cure them on plastic racks. I get my oils from Soapers choice and my sodium hydroxide from either Belle Chemical or the Lye Guy.  I cure them in the spare bedroom. I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong that they go rancid. I've had batches be fine but also quite a few go rancid. They don't get the DOS, but they will start smelling that rancid oil smell. It's not the oils because they smell fine. If anyone has any ideas at all I would greatly appreciate it. I also don't use and aluminum either. I use silicone soap molds and spoons. Also a plastic spoon to dig out the Palm kernel oil as it's always in a solid block. No idea what is causing them to go bad. I literally only make this soap because I have to. I don't know what I'm doing wrong..


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 9, 2022)

How hot is the batter getting during the cook? Unscented soaps can have a certain smell at times, especially if the oils were heated up a lot. 

I made a 100% olive oil soap a long time ago and the bars smell like old oil, but that's the nature of the beast. 

If they are not actually showing any signs of being off, I would use them


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## Jen74 (Oct 9, 2022)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> How hot is the batter getting during the cook? Unscented soaps can have a certain smell at times, especially if the oils were heated up a lot.
> 
> I made a 100% olive oil soap a long time ago and the bars smell like old oil, but that's the nature of the beast.
> 
> If they are not actually showing any signs of being off, I would use them


Hi, thank you for your response.  The odd thing is that I've made this soap other times where there is no smell really.  I cook it for about 45 minutes stirring after every 15 minutes and it is on low heat( I use my crock pot that use for making the soap).  I just can't figure it out. I wonder if something chemically goes awry after it has saponified for make it go bad or while it is curing. I am at my wits end with this as I have tried everything.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 9, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> I cure them in the spare bedroom.


By any chance, is it sunny in there? I cure soap in my guest bedroom too. The only time I had some soaps that went south on me was a few bars sitting in direct sunlight for part of the day.


Jen74 said:


> I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong that they go rancid


I don't understand it either. Everything you wrote sounds A-OK to me.     That shouldn't be happening!!! Crossing fingers that someone comes along with an answer.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 9, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> Palm oil- 725.75 grams
> Palm kernel oil- 181.44 grams
> Distilled water - 265.73 grams
> Sodium hydroxide - 130.88 grams
> Few drops of ROE


RECIPE PRINT OUT ATTACHED

HAH! While formulating your recipe it occured to me that you are using hard PKO instead of the flakes, which is what I use. Palm/ PKO are known for the stearic acid settling to the bottom of the bucket. Unless you are melting and stirring every time, to get the stearic fully incorporated before weighing, it's likely that your batches have more or less stearic acid in them.

I'm not sure that would cause rancidity, though.  

REMEDY: As soon as an order arrives, melt all your oils & weigh several batches at a time into a separate bucket for each batch. Add ROE. Store that way until needed.


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## Jen74 (Oct 9, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> By any chance, is it sunny in there? I cure soap in my guest bedroom too. The only time I had some soaps that went south on me was a few bars sitting in direct sunlight for part of the day.
> 
> I don't understand it either. Everything you wrote sounds A-OK to me.     That shouldn't be happening!!! Crossing fingers that someone comes along with an answer.
> 
> View attachment 68939


No, there is no sunlight. It's such a mystery why this is happening.


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## Jen74 (Oct 9, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> RECIPE PRINT OUT ATTACHED
> 
> HAH! While formulating your recipe it occured to me that you are using hard PKO instead of the flakes, which is what I use. Palm/ PKO are known for the stearic acid settling to the bottom of the bucket. Unless you are melting and stirring every time, to get the stearic fully incorporated before weighing, it's likely that your batches have more or less stearic acid in them.
> 
> ...


The palm kernel oil comes as a big solid block in a box.  Maybe I should order a different kind?


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 9, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> The palm kernel oil comes as a big solid block in a box. Maybe I should order a different kind?


*Soapers Choice* also offers the flakes. No pre-mixing required and much easier to weigh out. Comes in a big blue plastic bag inside a box. 
I think you're gonna love it1


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## AliOop (Oct 9, 2022)

One possibility is that by putting in a few drops of ROE, rather than weighing it, you are using too much. The usage rate is really, really low -* .05% - that is ½ of 1%.  *

Using more than the recommended amount is known to cause rancidity. Here is an article about that.


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## Jen74 (Oct 9, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> *Soapers Choice* also offers the flakes. No pre-mixing required and much easier to weigh out. Comes in a big blue plastic bag inside a box.
> I think you're gonna love it1


I have not seen the flakes there. I will have to look into that. Have you used crafters choice before? I think they sell flakes too.


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## Jen74 (Oct 9, 2022)

AliOop said:


> One possibility is that by putting in a few drops of ROE, rather than weighing it, you are using too much. The usage rate is really, really low -* .05% - that is ½ of 1%.  *
> 
> Using more than the recommended amount is known to cause rancidity. Here is an article about that.


Thank you for telling me this. I usually put like two to three tiny drops in. Maybe it's too much? I will have to buy a tiny scale in order to measure it out.


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## glendam (Oct 9, 2022)

You said the oils smell fine, but how old are they really?  Did you purchase them very recently?


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## Jen74 (Oct 9, 2022)

glendam said:


> You said the oils smell fine, but how old are they really?  Did you purchase them very recently?


I bought the palm oil three days prior to making the soap. The palm kernel I bought two weeks prior to making the soapI( I keep the PKO refrigerated).


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 9, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> ( I keep the PKO refrigerated).


WHY??? I store mine at room temp. No worries. I store my pre-mixed batches at room temp also. Around 68°F at the moment.


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## Jen74 (Oct 9, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> WHY??? I store mine at room temp. No worries. I store my pre-mixed batches at room temp also. Around 68°F at the moment.


I just store that one because I do not use as much and read it stays fresher this way.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 9, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> I just store that one because I do not use as much and read it stays fresher this way.


Well, while that's generally true, I have PKO (flakes) that's over a year old that I will be soaping soon... we shall see how it does... I need to remember to look up the date and get back to you.


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## Marsi (Oct 10, 2022)

"the last two batches I've made went rancid within two to three weeks after making them before their even done curing. I don't change anything. I use to think maybe it was humidity so ran a fan and dehumidifier in the room. I always make sure nothing ever gets contaminated and cure them on plastic racks."

If this has started happening two years after you began curing in the room, and now more soaps are getting a rancid smell but the early ones didn't, something has changed to cause it.

As a precaution, I would suggest sanitizing the plastic shelving and using clean teatowels underneath the soap to ensure that there is no hidden triggers residing on the shelving itself (this would show up as marks in the soap normally, but it also can't hurt to do).

The superfat (at 3% is not particularly high, so that's not likely to be an issue, unless your lye has gone a bit lumpy - then the lye has taken on a bit of water from the atmosphere and may not be as strong as it was ... this can increase the superfat without being obvious).

Another thought is to decrease your water, by increasing your lye concentration to around 36% ... less evaporation means less water in the air in the room.

If you can open a window during the day, that might help a little too.

Check for any black mold in the room - look in dark areas around floor level and cupboards - if that is in the room, the spores can trigger dos too.

Other than that, try curing in an alternative space, to see if the room itself is the problem.


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## Jen74 (Oct 10, 2022)

Marsi said:


> "the last two batches I've made went rancid within two to three weeks after making them before their even done curing. I don't change anything. I use to think maybe it was humidity so ran a fan and dehumidifier in the room. I always make sure nothing ever gets contaminated and cure them on plastic racks."
> 
> If this has started happening two years after you began curing in the room, and now more soaps are getting a rancid smell but the early ones didn't, something has changed to cause it.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice,I appreciate it. Actually this is a different room I am curing them in.  We moved recently, so different house altogether.  Is it okay to open windows? I always read that you want the room to be closed up where no outdoor air can get on the soap. I am so confused by it all.  I will definitely keep an eye on the lye. I have had in the past where I bought some lye and it was clumoy, I threw that out and did not use it. So far the lye I use seems to okay for the most part. Thank you for the suggestion on using the teatowels. I was using parchment paper to line my racks. Maybe that is not a good idea? The room does not have any mold that I can see or smell so I don't think it would be that. That is a really good idea with  increasing the lye. That might help. Thank you so much for the advice. I am just trying to figure this all out. What is interesting is that I do not see the DOS. The soaps start smelling rancid and there is no evidence of DOS usually on any of the soap that I can see. I have seen it happen a little on a couple bars, but that is like weeks after it has started smelling rancid. Usually there is no DOS, just the rancid smell.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 10, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> The soaps start smelling rancid and there is no evidence of DOS


Hmmm.  The plot thickens...

I'm wondering if you have others around that agree that the soaps "smell rancid"? Just a thought. With so many issues addressed properly, maybe your nose is off?


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## Jen74 (Oct 10, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Hmmm.  The plot thickens...
> 
> I'm wondering if you have others around that agree that the soaps "smell rancid"? Just a thought. With so many issues addressed properly, maybe your nose is off?


Lol, I thought the same thing and had my husband and my dad smell them. They both agree that they smell like rancid oil. I swear if this was not so aggravating it would be laughable. It is odd because the rancid oil smell comes first and then maybe two to three weeks later you will be able to sometimes see a few orange spots, but not on all of the bars. But they all have that smell and the smell gets stronger as time goes on.


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## AliOop (Oct 10, 2022)

I really think you should determine whether the amount of ROE you are using exceeds the recommended limit, which is extremely low. If you are making small batches of soap, even a few drops of ROE could be double what is needed. That would put you into the pro-rancidity zone, where the ROE is actually causing the fats to go bad.


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## cmzaha (Oct 10, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> I bought the palm oil three days prior to making the soap. The palm kernel I bought two weeks prior to making the soapI( I keep the PKO refrigerated).


PKO and Palm both have a very long shelf life. Maybe try a chelator such as Sodium Gluconate instead of ROE. ROE can give issues if too much is used or if the ROE is old. I find SG worked better for me than Sodium Citrate which is another possibility.

I always purchased PKO in 35lb buckets (5 gallons), never melted it down, and had no problems with it, I just chipped away at it to get out what I needed.


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## AliOop (Oct 10, 2022)

@cmzaha I agree that PKO doesn't go bad. As you know, I have one of your buckets of PKO. Despite being several years old, it has zero rancidity after being stored at room temp. Well, except for the very long drive in the back of the truck across several states, between your house and mine - I am sure it got quite hot then. And still it is just fine.

I also have never had any trouble with PKO separating or settling like PO.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 10, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> They both agree that they smell like rancid oil.


Oh my.


AliOop said:


> I also have never had any trouble with PKO separating or settling like PO.


I think that's correct. I couldn't remember for sure. Young at heart but old brain... my daughter calls me "_Drain Bamaged"._


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## Marsi (Oct 10, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> Thank you for the advice,I appreciate it. Actually this is a different room I am curing them in.  We moved recently, so different house altogether.  Is it okay to open windows? I always read that you want the room to be closed up where no outdoor air can get on the soap. I am so confused by it all.  I will definitely keep an eye on the lye. I have had in the past where I bought some lye and it was clumoy, I threw that out and did not use it. So far the lye I use seems to okay for the most part. Thank you for the suggestion on using the teatowels. I was using parchment paper to line my racks. Maybe that is not a good idea? The room does not have any mold that I can see or smell so I don't think it would be that. That is a really good idea with  increasing the lye. That might help. Thank you so much for the advice. I am just trying to figure this all out. What is interesting is that I do not see the DOS. The soaps start smelling rancid and there is no evidence of DOS usually on any of the soap that I can see. I have seen it happen a little on a couple bars, but that is like weeks after it has started smelling rancid. Usually there is no DOS, just the rancid smell.


It's sunlight that is a problem, not so much a fresh breeze from an open window
(I cure mine in a dark room with an open window that has mesh and curtain covers to help prevent dust contamination)

Edited to add:
The comments above about ROE and Sodium Gluconate/chelators are useful.
To try a simple chelator, you can add the juice of a lemon to replace some of the water (one for one replacement, lemon juice for water)
Lemon juice reacts with lye to form Sodium citrate.

I suggest you decrease the superfat to 2% allow for some experimentation.
The juice of 2 lemons will be around the limit for your batch size.
(Don't use too much lemon juice or you will get some crystals forming in your soap)


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## Jen74 (Oct 10, 2022)

Marsi said:


> It's sunlight that is a problem, not so much a fresh breeze from an open window
> (I cure mine in a dark room with an open window that has mesh and curtain covers to help prevent dust contamination)
> If your soaps are exposed to sunlight in your new room, they'll easily turn rancid.


The room has no sun as the curtains are drawn. I have a dehumidifier going and a fan blowing directly on them as they cure. What are your thoughts? Doesn't opening a window cause dust and spores from outside on them? What do you mean by mesh and curtain covers? Also, the dehumidifier does keep the room warmer in a sense, yet drier. Is that okay? Also is it okay to have a fan blowing on the soaps to help?


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## Spice (Oct 10, 2022)

my apologies, I see why you're using PKO. I was thinking of using palm oil in my soap and wanted to know if its a better oil than the ones I am using, or if it adds to the soap.


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## Marsi (Oct 10, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> The room has no sun as the curtains are drawn. I have a dehumidifier going and a fan blowing directly on them as they cure. What are your thoughts? Doesn't opening a window cause dust and spores from outside on them? What do you mean by mesh and curtain covers?


We call them flyscreen covers here, but I used the word mesh (I don't know what you call them there) to describe a very fine mesh that is fitted to the window to exclude insects and debris (mine are coated fibreglass with very very fine holes). Over that I have a blind that is drawn.
Very little dust gets through - I do not need to sweep this room and I live in a very windy place.

My thoughts? It's generalized DOS.
You have fresh ingredients that generally don't spoil easily, distilled water and non-clumping lye, so the only two that make sense as the cause are the ROE (old or excessive, as alioop mentioned, can cause generalized DOS) and the curing environment. The curing environment has changed, so I would focus on that as a potential cause, although dropping the ROE altogether would be the first thing I would do (it is used to extend the shelf life of delicate oils, but you don't really need that with the oils you are using).

Opening a window will add a good exchange of air (not just recirculating air).

In summary, change the curing environment, drop the ROE and add a chelator
(Sodium gluconate, as suggested by cmzaha, is very good - you may want to move to this once you are comfortable with the idea of using a chelator to prevent DOS).

PS. I've updated my post above - a chelater should help and lemons are easy to come by


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## Jen74 (Oct 10, 2022)

Marsi said:


> We call them flyscreen covers here, but I used the word mesh (I don't know what you call them there) to describe a very fine mesh that is fitted to the window to exclude insects and debris (mine are coated fibreglass with very very fine holes). Over that I have a blind that is drawn.
> Very little dust gets through - I do not need to sweep this room and I live in a very windy place.
> 
> My thoughts? It's generalized DOS.
> ...


Thank you for all the suggestions, I really appreciate it.  I am allergic to lemon. Could I use sodium gluconate instead? Also, how much sodium gluconate would I add? Where do I purchase this? Last question is, is it okay to keep using the dehumidifier and have a fan blowing on the soaps?


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## AliOop (Oct 10, 2022)

Great point @Marsi - ROE is arguably not necessary for a recipe with just PO and PKO. A chelator like sodium gluconate would make sense here.

@Jen74 a fan and dehumidifier are ideal for curing soaps. I don’t have either for my curing soaps so I’m a little jelly.


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## Jen74 (Oct 10, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Great point @Marsi - ROE is arguably not necessary for a recipe with just PO and PKO. A chelator like sodium gluconate would make sense here.
> 
> @Jen74 a fan and dehumidifier are ideal for curing soaps. I don’t have either for my curing soaps so I’m a little jelly.


Thank you so much!!!. I am just trying to get this right. I honestly only make my soaps because I'm allergic to So many things. It's rough. Right now I have my one batch I made 5 weeks Ago and it's smelling already. I have no other soap I can use so will have to use it until I make the new stuff, but that will also take at least 4 weeks to cure. I will definitely try the chelator. I will have to figure out where to buy the sodium gluconate. How much are you supposed to use typically?


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## AliOop (Oct 10, 2022)

Chelators can help a soap lather better in hard water, and will also reduce soap scum. So you may find that you do prefer soap with a chelator - or you may find that you don't need a chelator at all. 

Honestly, unless you have really hard water, consider making a small batch, maybe 500g, with no chelator or antioxidant at all. Get that curing right away and use it as a benchmark for other test batches with a chelator.

For sodium gluconate, the typical usage rate is .5% to 1% of total batch weight. You can buy it at MakingCosmetics.com, or MakeYourOwn.Buzz.  Perhaps make a small batch with that and see how it compares to the other soap without the SG.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 10, 2022)

This whole scenario reminds me of something I went through in 2007. I lost 6 months of sales due to I didn't know what was going on with my soap. It just wasn't coming together as it should.

At that time, Mike Lawson, the Owner of Soapers Choice, was a member of Southern Soapers Yahoo Group that I was a member of. He's the one who figured it out. He offered to test samples of the two olive oils I was using. Test results proved I was using *adulterated* olive oil!

*Slippery Business - The Trade in Adulterated Olive Oil*

I believe Tom retired and the two women who now own Soapers Choice are his daughters. Maybe it's time to call in the professionals... maybe they can help figure this out. I remember how frustrated I was back then and ever so grateful when Tom came to my rescue.

Just a thought...


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## paradisi (Oct 10, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> Thank you so much!!!. I am just trying to get this right. I honestly only make my soaps because I'm allergic to So many things. It's rough. Right now I have my one batch I made 5 weeks Ago and it's smelling already. I have no other soap I can use so will have to use it until I make the new stuff, but that will also take at least 4 weeks to cure. I will definitely try the chelator. I will have to figure out where to buy the sodium gluconate. How much are you supposed to use typically?


Have you tried palm oil from a different source? Soapers Choice has been caught several times selling adulterated oils, incuding palm oil.

Too, I've found palm shortening goes weird faster than plain rbd.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 10, 2022)

paradisi said:


> Soapers Choice has been caught several times selling adulterated oils, incuding palm oil.


I had no idea! If you don't mind sharing, do you have a source for that information?


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## Marsi (Oct 11, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> Thank you for all the suggestions, I really appreciate it.  I am allergic to lemon. Could I use sodium gluconate instead? Also, how much sodium gluconate would I add? Where do I purchase this? Last question is, is it okay to keep using the dehumidifier and have a fan blowing on the soaps?


Absolutely!
Sodium Gluconate is BETTER than Sodium citrate (lemons) as a chelator 
Alioop has covered the usage rates and suppliers.

if what paradisi says is true, that would explain the overall DOS issue


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## Vicki C (Oct 11, 2022)

AliOop said:


> One possibility is that by putting in a few drops of ROE, rather than weighing it, you are using too much. The usage rate is really, really low -* .05% - that is ½ of 1%.  *
> 
> Using more than the recommended amount is known to cause rancidity. Here is an article about that.


To clarify - .05% is not 1/2 of 1% - it is 1/20 of 1%, or 5 grams per 10,000 g oil. I use 0.1%, or 10 grams in every 10,000 grams of oil. But re-reading that article I see that I should probably decrease that amount - “One study looked at the antioxidant and pro-oxidant effects of ROE in soybean oil. The researchers found ROE was ineffective at 0.01% and it was pro-oxidant at 0.5%. They found ROE worked best as an antioxidant in the 0.02% to 0.05% range. (4)” (Thank you as always @DeeAnna !)


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## AliOop (Oct 11, 2022)

@Vicki C thank you for catching my math error!  This is exactly why i generally don’t venture far into trying to explain calculations like this. Good thing you are here to clean up my messy and incorrect attempt at that!


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## cmzaha (Oct 11, 2022)

Sodium Gluconate is much better than Sodium Citrate or Lemon Juice in my opinion. Actually, I used EDTA and Sodium Gluconate at 0.5% each for a total of 1% total batch weight in all my soap batches, other than soap for my daughter. For her, I used a total of 1.2% because she has very hard well water.
I think MakeYourOwn.Buzz which is a division of Wholesalesuppliesplus was formerly Savon Citric where I used to purchase my SG.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 11, 2022)

Marsi said:


> if what paradisi says is true, that would explain the overall DOS issue


I agree. If I were you, @Jen74 I wouldn't waste any time getting in touch with Soapers Choice... the sooner the better.   

You can copy and paste the URL to this thread in an email to them. I'll be anxious to hear how they respond.


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## paradisi (Oct 11, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I agree. If I were you, @Jen74 I wouldn't waste any time getting in touch with Soapers Choice... the sooner the better.
> 
> You can copy and paste the URL to this thread in an email to them. I'll be anxious to hear how they respond.


SC won't admit it but if you look here or elsewhere there are threads about getting coconut that had some other liquid oil in it (tank wash), avocado that wasn't all avocado, and, to my own sorrow,  palm that was so adulterated it wasn't liquid at 110°.

I went round and round with them, they called me a liar even though I furnished them with photos and lot #'s. The credit card company agreed with me. 

And the pail of palm from another supplier that came in that same heat wave that week was entirely liquid.

I'll say this: it isn't necessarily on purpose; I have no particular reason to think it is.
But even stupid mistakes from suppliers are costly and I spend my money elsewhere now.

And in any event it's smart to double check the quality of all our ingredients, wherever we get them.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 11, 2022)

paradisi said:


> I went round and round with them, they called me a liar even though I furnished them with photos and lot #'s. The credit card company agreed with me.


Oh my. That's not right!


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## cmzaha (Oct 11, 2022)

paradisi said:


> Have you tried palm oil from a different source? Soapers Choice has been caught several times selling adulterated oils, incuding palm oil.
> 
> Too, I've found palm shortening goes weird faster than plain rbd.


I used Palm Shortening which I purchased in 50lb cubes and never had it go rancid, although I never purchased it from Soapers Choice. Mine came from my local Smart & Final.


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## paradisi (Oct 11, 2022)

cmzaha said:


> I used Palm Shortening which I purchased in 50lb cubes and never had it go rancid, although I never purchased it from Soapers Choice. Mine came from my local Smart & Final.


The palm shortening I tried came from a grocery chain too but not S&F.  Never tried SC's.
 It wasn't adulterated I don't think, just not as nice as plain ole RBD, to me.


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## Vicki C (Oct 11, 2022)

AliOop said:


> @Vicki C thank you for catching my math error!  This is exactly why i generally don’t venture far into trying to explain calculations like this. Good thing you are here to clean up my messy and incorrect attempt at that!


Ha not at ll - I looked at your post and thought oh nuts, I’m not adding enough, and then I had to ponder for a while (and read Soapy Stuff) and then I realized I was ok. Maybe. Or Maybe I’m adding too much.


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## vivhalaska (Oct 12, 2022)

_I’m no mathematician but I get .05% as being 1/2 of 1%_


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 12, 2022)

Never mind.


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## Vicki C (Oct 12, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Same here!





vivhalaska said:


> _I’m no mathematician but I get .05% as being 1/2 of 1%_


So, half of 1% would be 0.5%. 0.05% is one tenth of that amount - the decimal point is pushed one place to the left. 1% is one one hundredth or 1/100.  0.1% is one one thousandth or 1/1000. 0.05% is half of one thousandth. 
It gets confusing because percentages are already moving the decimal point. Another way to say 0.05% is that the recommended amount is 0.0005 x total oils. So if you have 1000 g of oils, you would use 0.0005 x 1000 = 0.5 grams of ROE. 
Does that help?


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## Obsidian (Oct 12, 2022)

I soaped for years before I started getting DOS about 4 years ago. I only make a few batches a year now but I've had to throw many out so I changed a few things.
I originally replaced OO with safflower but have now went back to OO. I had been using the same cheap plastic mixing bowls forever, tossed them and got new ones. started using bottled water instead of tap and got all new oils. I'm also running my molds through the dishwasher.

Its been about three weeks since I made my first test batch with all this new stuff and so far, the bars look and smell great. Of course if this fixes the issue I won't know what the culprit truly was but I didn't want to risk wasting supplies slowly testing one thing at a time.


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## vivhalaska (Oct 12, 2022)

Vicki C said:


> So, half of 1% would be 0.5%. 0.05% is one tenth of that amount - the decimal point is pushed one place to the left. 1% is one one hundredth or 1/100.  0.1% is one one thousandth or 1/1000. 0.05% is half of one thousandth.
> It gets confusing because percentages are already moving the decimal point. Another way to say 0.05% is that the recommended amount is 0.0005 x total oils. So if you have 1000 g of oils, you would use 0.0005 x 1000 = 0.5 grams of ROE.
> Does that help?


I stand corrected.


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## AliOop (Oct 13, 2022)

vivhalaska said:


> I stand corrected.


Me, too!!


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## vivhalaska (Oct 13, 2022)

vivhalaska said:


> I stand corrected.


To make it simple 1/2 of 1% is 1/100  divided x 2 = .005


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## Misschief (Oct 13, 2022)

vivhalaska said:


> To make it simple 1/2 of 1% is 1/100  divided x 2 = .005


I was going to post that earlier today but percentages have never been my strong point. I have memories of my Dad trying to coach me in percentages and me in tears. Then, many years later, my husband found this website: 






						Percentage Calculator
					






					percentagecalculator.net
				




I hate to admit it but I use it a LOT more than I should.


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## vivhalaska (Oct 13, 2022)

Misschief said:


> I was going to post that earlier today but percentages have never been my strong point. I have memories of my Dad trying to coach me in percentages and me in tears. Then, many years later, my husband found this website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was really bugging me that I got it wrong. I asked my husband who got a distinction at Uni for maths, he’s an engineer. Of course he knew the answer without thinking about it. I usually run any maths questions past him. I can normally work out percentages and fractions without help, but clearly I’m not as capable as I thought.


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## Vicki C (Oct 13, 2022)

vivhalaska said:


> It was really bugging me that I got it wrong. I asked my husband who got a distinction at Uni for maths, he’s an engineer. Of course he knew the answer without thinking about it. I usually run any maths questions past him. I can normally work out percentages and fractions without help, but clearly I’m not as capable as I thought.


I wasn’t trying to make you feel that way, I hope I didn’t. Truly I was scratching my head thinking I had been not using enough ROE and had to think it through.
I have a weakness in basic arithmetic - like if I have to subtract large  numbers I am likely to make mistakes. Not just in my head, with paper even. So I use my phone calculator because I have made too many simple errors that have cost me. 
ETA not long after writing this I started making bagels, decided to make 1.5 times the usual amount. So, in my head, I decided (incorrectly) that the water required would be 255g*1.5  or 255g+ (about) 175g. The dough was too runny and… one head slap later… I remembered I am terrible at arithmetic.
All good. Bagel dough has been fixed.


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## vivhalaska (Oct 13, 2022)

Vicki C said:


> I wasn’t trying to make you feel that way, I hope I didn’t. Truly I was scratching my head thinking I had been not using enough ROE and had to think it through.
> I have a weakness in basic arithmetic - like if I have to subtract large  numbers I am likely to make mistakes. Not just in my head, with paper even. So I use my phone calculator because I have made too many simple errors that have cost me.


No you don’t need to apologise, it was a good thing, it made me use my brain. I hope you’ve solved your rancid problem, which, after all was what this post was about, not maths.


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## Vicki C (Oct 13, 2022)

vivhalaska said:


> No you don’t need to apologise, it was a good thing, it made me use my brain. I hope you’ve solved your rancid problem, which, after all was what this post was about, not maths.


Yes this got off track! Actually not my rancidity problem and not my thread -  I just perked up when ROE was being discussed. It does make a huge difference for rancidity.


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## maxine289 (Oct 14, 2022)

Misschief said:


> I was going to post that earlier today but percentages have never been my strong point. I have memories of my Dad trying to coach me in percentages and me in tears. Then, many years later, my husband found this website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bookmarking that calculator right now!


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## HoppyCosmetics (Nov 14, 2022)

Jen74 said:


> I usually make the HP soap


You could try making the soap cold process and see if it still goes rancid or if there's a difference in quality. 



Vicki C said:


> So if you have 1000 g of oils, you would use 0.0005 x 1000 = 0.5 grams of ROE.


Just a quick question about this. If i was to use ROE in 100g of lip balm instead of vitamin E, how much would i use? At the moment, im using 2 drops, so not sure if that's even too much, or should just use 1 drop.


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## Marsi (Nov 14, 2022)

HoppyCosmetics said:


> Just a quick question about this. If i was to use ROE in 100g of lip balm instead of vitamin E, how much would i use? At the moment, im using 2 drops, so not sure if that's even too much, or should just use 1 drop.


How much does a drop of ROE weigh?

When you are working with such small numbers, knowing your drop weight is useful

0.5% of ROE in a 100g batch (the suggested amount above, I don't use ROE anymore) is 0.5 grams


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## HoppyCosmetics (Nov 14, 2022)

Marsi said:


> How much does a drop of ROE weigh?


Weighing a drop on my scales is extremely difficult, even when it goes two decimal places. Its a MyWeigh Triton T3R precision scale. It doesn't even register until i use two drops. But 1 drop of ROE is 0.015g.


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## Marsi (Nov 14, 2022)

0.5% of ROE in a 100g batch (from the amounts above) is 0.5 grams


HoppyCosmetics said:


> Weighing a drop on my scales is extremely difficult, even when it goes two decimal places. Its a MyWeigh Triton T3R precision scale. It doesn't even register until i use two drops. But 1 drop of ROE is 0.015g.


Weigh multiple drops to get an individual drop weight. Eg. Weigh ten (and then divide by 10)

Given that you know that one drop of ROE is 0.015g, and you need 0.5g, then the math to get the number of drops you need is 0.5g divided by 0.015g (result 3.33 drop)

The number of drops of ROE you need is 3 for your 100g batch of oils (lip balm, calculated using the information provide)


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## HoppyCosmetics (Nov 14, 2022)

Marsi said:


> Weigh multiple drops to get an individual drop weight. Eg. Weigh ten (and then divide by 10)


Thanks, i never thought of that! 



Marsi said:


> Given that you know that one drop of ROE is 0.015g, and you need 0.5g, then the math to get the number of drops you need is 0.5g divided by 0.015g (result 3.33 drop)


Im probably going to sound like an idiot now, and my math is terrible, so yeah i know the weight of one drop now, but how do you know i need 0.5g? All this is confusing! Essential oil calculations, roe, etc is my weak point in all this.


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## Marsi (Nov 14, 2022)

No worries, it's one of those "obvious in hindsight" concepts 


HoppyCosmetics said:


> ... but how do you know i need 0.5g? All this is confusing! Essential oil calculations, roe, etc is my weak point in all this.



The 0.5% maximum usage rate came from this article on ROE that AliOop linked earlier in this thread

0.5g was calculated from this maximum, using your 100g of oils and butters (0.5% of 100 grams is 0.5 grams)


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## johnnyusa (Nov 14, 2022)

I also had someone tell me once that my unscented liquid soap was rancid.
The soap was perfectly fine, but this person was so used to smelling my scented liquid hand soap that when I left it unscented he thought it was rancid and actually told me so.
I resisted the urge to slap him and replied that the soap was merely unscented because scent's expensive, and nobody pays me to make decent soap magically appear in this **** office...


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