# "Cleansing"



## Pyewacket (Jul 7, 2020)

In the soap calculator, it says "cleansing" has to do with how well a soap DISSOLVES.  Not sure why it's not called "solubility" then but ... anyway ...

What does this mean for liquid soaps?  And what does it mean for something like a pure castile that will have 0 for "cleansing"?


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## Obsidian (Jul 7, 2020)

Cleansing has to do with how much oil and dirt a soap can carry away from from your skin.

Not sure where you saw that it has to do with longevity as that calculator has a separate longevity number.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 7, 2020)

Not sure where you saw that I said I thought it had anything to do with longevity. SOLUBILITY, I suggested, would be a better name for it given the definition I have for it (see below where it says "measure of how water soluble ...")

This is the definition for that parameter from the calculator on soapee.com, which looks EXACTLY the same as the one on this site except that they define terms and terms are not defined on the calculator here.  Or at least my browser fails to show them.

Hover over cleansing over there and this is what it says.

"It is a measure of *how water soluble the soap is* - meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water.  *The cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean*."

That sounds like the opposite of what you are telling me.  So is the soapee site wrong?  If it is wrong, where can I find the CORRECT definition of all those terms (cleansing, hardness and on down the line)

I am a total novice here so if I've latched on to a site that gives out grossly wrong information (soapee.com), then could you please guide me to one that is better?

And regardless of exact definitions:

What does this mean for liquid soaps?  And what does it mean for something like a pure castile that will have 0 for "cleansing"?


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## Obsidian (Jul 7, 2020)

Sorry, typo on my part. Longevity and solubility are closely related. More soluable a soap is, the short it lasts. Coconut soap is a prime example of this, gets rock hard but is super soluble.

As far as the cleansing definition on soapee, yes its wrong. Maybe the program writer misunderstood that aspect. If I remember right, he isn't a soap maker.

Either use soapmakingfriend that you linked in your first post or soapcalc.net

All soap cleans, even a castile with a 0. Its just that castile won't strip all your natural oils away.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 7, 2020)

OK so having a soap with 0 "cleansing" isn't bad then.

And I will pass on that website (soapee) then.  I don't know enough to know what I don't know, LOL!  There may be good info there for someone who knows what they are doing but that does not describe me when it comes to soapmaking.

Thanks.


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## Obsidian (Jul 8, 2020)

Nope, 0 is not bad. You don't want it to high either. Most people shoot for around 15 but it depends on the skin type too.

And omg, I just noticed your name. Growing up my sister had a cat named pyewacket. Something about a witch maybe, in a book she read. I've never heard it anyone else use it.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 8, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> Nope, 0 is not bad. You don't want it to high either. Most people shoot for around 15 but it depends on the skin type too.
> 
> And omg, I just noticed your name. Growing up my sister had a cat named pyewacket. Something about a witch maybe, in a book she read. I've never heard it anyone else use it.



For me the only thing I care about is NOT HAVING ANY COCONUT, BABASSU, OR PALM OIL in it.  Or anything else related thereto.  That includes glycerine because the vast majority of that is sourced from coconut primarily and palm secondarily, and often mixed sources.  I don't think there is any way I could get hold of glycerine that would be safe for me.  It may exist, but I have limited shopping/shipping options.  Also limited funds LOL!

As for the name - Bell, Book and Candle.  I forget who wrote the book but Jimmy Stewart starred in the movie (he was perfect for the role).  Kim Novak starred as the witch and the movie was not improved thereby.  Somebody like Audrey Hepburn would have been perfect.  But yes, it was the name of the cat (a black-and-tan Siamese).  Derived from a made-up name for a made-up demon by one of the girls who kicked off the Salem witch trials. 









						How to Better Understand SoapCalc's Soap Quality Numbers • Modern Soapmaking
					

Having a hard time understanding SoapCalc's Soap Quality numbers? Let's demystify them by talking about how they are calculated and what they really mean.




					www.modernsoapmaking.com
				




How's that for proper definitions of "hardness" and all that?  Accurate/trustworthy?


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## Obsidian (Jul 8, 2020)

Glycerin is made naturally during the saponification process so there really isn't any reason you would need any in its pure form anyways.
Is the coconut/palm a allergy? Tucuma butter works well to add the same cleansing properties to soap but its crazy expensive.

Soapcal is a good, reliable calculator. Try not to get too hung up on the numbers, they really are only a guideline. 
Anymore the only number I pay much attention too is cleansing since I have dry skin and need that number to be 15 or under, best is around 10 for me.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 8, 2020)

Your quote from Soapee is perfectly correct -- 

_"It is a measure of how water soluble the soap is - meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water.  The cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean._" 

The "cleansing" number is the total percent of lauric and myristic acids. Soap high in these fatty acids will be very soluble in cold, salty, and/or hard water and it can be overly drying to the skin.

I agree that the name "cleansing" is misleading, but Soapee's definition is accurate about what a soap is like that is high in lauric + myristic acids. Lauric and myristic acids aren't the only fatty acids that make highly soluble soap -- oleic acid and ricinoleic acid are two others, although the solubility of these soaps is highest in warm, soft, and not-salty water.

The "cleansing" name is not Soapee's fault, nor was it the Soapee designer's idea. That name has been in use for quite some time -- you'll see this name and others at Soapcalc (I believe this was the original source of these "numbers"), SoapMaking Friend, etc. as well as Soapee. There are other soap making terms that are inaccurate, but they're not going to change any time soon no matter what, so we've all learned to deal with them.

Here's one of my articles with more info: Soapy Stuff: Soapcalc numbers


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## Pyewacket (Jul 8, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> Glycerin is made naturally during the saponification process so there really isn't any reason you would need any in its pure form anyways.
> Is the coconut/palm a allergy? Tucuma butter works well to add the same cleansing properties to soap but its crazy expensive.
> 
> Soapcal is a good, reliable calculator. Try not to get too hung up on the numbers, they really are only a guideline.
> Anymore the only number I pay much attention too is cleansing since I have dry skin and need that number to be 15 or under, best is around 10 for me.



DEFINITELY allergic to coconut, most likely also to babassu because that pretty much goes hand in hand with coconut allergy, and may be allergic to palm stuff as well.  I bought a "goat milk" soap that purported to only have 3 ingredients, the goat milk and 2 forms of palm stuff and had that blowtorch feeling for over a month thereafter.  So either I'm also allergic to palm stuff or ... that soap had more than 3 ingredients and one of them started with "c" and rhymes with "oconut".

I like mango butter but I can't get it locally.  Lots of things on the list of "soap oils" that would work for me but I can't actually physically get them, or they're expensive.  You've already noted "crazy expensive" on tucuma butter so I won't even look that one up LOL!  Pretty sure that isn't going to be locally available anyway.

Right now I am not washing my hair AT ALL because I've been too ill until recently.  Well, recovering from having had what was most likely covid, during recovery I'd been "cheating" and using leftover-from-before-I-knew-what-I-am-allergic-to conventional shampoos, which I had at least been trying to MINIMIZE coconut content because I THOUGHT it was just bad for my hair and scalp - took me awhile to realize I had a full-on allergy.    So while I had been using "real" shampoo the last few months I now am having the scalp problems that allergy brings along with it.   So the time between shampoos got longer and longer the worse my scalp felt. I swear I don't know which is worse, contact dermatitis on your scalp, or dirt on top of slowly healing contact dermatitis.

I've recovered enough by now that I've dug up my soapnut powder a couple days ago and am making soapnut solution today.  I"ve been using herbal hair conditioner for going on a year now I think - I use an amla/hibiscus rinse and sometimes with some fenugreek gel.  But I had just mixed up my first batch of soapnut liquid for washing my hair right before the covid (or whatever it was) hit and by the time the worst of that was over, it had gone bad.  Looking at that icky moldy stuff wasn't real encouraging LOL!  But I have to bite the bullet and give it a whirl.  Allergies don't give you sick time off.

For the shampoo I have shikakai and soapnuts and for conditioner I have (all in powdered form)

amla
bhringraj
brahmi
neem
fenugreek
rose petal
hibiscus flower
tulsi
chamomile tea bags
green tea
Aloe vera powder

You don't use all of that at once but as complicated as this sort of regimen may look, its not nearly as complicated as the chemistry that goes in to making modern cleansing products.  I used to come up with these rashes basically only when I'd been out and about and had used "foreign" hand soap.  I use a foamer at home which probably minimizes the amount of coconut stuff I come into contact with at home, but I'm trying to get away from even THAT much contact.  The rashes are getting worse and worse.  I had my first full-body rash this past weekend due to having tried on a new pair of shorts I'd just bought, intending to toss them in the wash right away if they fit, and then ran around in the house in them for I don't know how long before I broke out in hives everywhere they touched.  Including my feet (I sit cross-legged a LOT).

THANK DOG I don't go commando (anymore).

They must have used something coconut-infused to soften the fabric.  They use coconut derived substances even in TP and feminine products (for the allergy-stricken, Always web site is the only manufacturer of feminine products I know of that lists ingredients for their products on their website).  The one TP I knew I wasn't allergic to hasn't been available since the pandemic hit here - or at least, since the gubmint reluctantly ADMITTED it had hit which was months after it had ACTUALLY hit.

Aaaaannnnnnyyyyywaaaaaaay ....

I would also like to get some arappu powder for shampooing, which they have back in stock through Amazon.  At least I'm familiar with the tradition so I knew I had these options, LOL!  Imagine finding out you are allergic to ALL commercial shampoo, conditioner, and soap when you are over 60.  That's a lot to have to change on pretty short notice and with very very few Western alternatives.  

Also doctors think there is no such thing as coconut allergy so ... nobody bothered to test me for it when I started getting mystery rashes about 15 years ago, they just shrugged and said "contact dermatitis" and handed me a permascription for cortisone cream (eg perpetual permanent prescription).   

I found out that the healing properties of hemp oil were not woo (I HATE woo) when I ran out of said cortisone cream for the first time in over 10 years a couple of years ago and in desperation rubbed on some hemp oil, which I had in the house for some reason that I can't even remember.  I'm glad I did.  It worked on the rashes I get WAY better than the cortisone cream ever did.  OH I remember, I had gotten it to try as a hair oil.  Worked pretty well too.  Except for the odor.  Sort of like dry grass.  I was using it as a scalp treatment too and it was really helping my scalp, before I figured out I had a full on allergy and what to.  Only hemp oil saved me from utter despair this past week with the pretty-near full body rash.

So yeah.  Allergies.  Coconut Hatums Me.  And I have to avoid the rest Just In Case.  If the ingredient list on that goat's milk soap was honest/accurate, I'm allergic to palm stuff too so that's what I have to work with.  If I want to be sure not to break out in full body rashes ever again, the only way for me to be SURE I'm coconut-babassu-palm free is to learn to do it myself.  And as the allergy gets worse, which it has been doing for some time now, eventually I won't be able to use conventional laundry detergent anymore either, double-rinse or no double-rinse.

So here I am.  I just want to feel CLEAN again.  Scrubbing with plain water just doesn't really get you there.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 8, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> Your quote from Soapee is perfectly correct --
> 
> _"It is a measure of how water soluble the soap is - meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water.  The cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean._"
> 
> ...



Sorry if it seemed I was blaming the soapee website for the nomenclature, I realize that it is ubiquitous and on every site so its probably been around longer than the Internet, I would guess.

I'm doing my best to find a way to be clean again and its looking like an olive oil based soap is pretty much my only alternative.  None of the books or websites are all that helpful to me as far as recipes go because they ALL use coconut or palm products or both.  I have gone through hundreds of online recipes and have only found a bare handful that are safe for me and they're all for 100% olive oil based soaps.

The problem with that is that apparently it is true that these need to be cured for a full year. 

I REALLY need to feel clean before that!


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## Pyewacket (Jul 8, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> Glycerin is made naturally during the saponification process so there really isn't any reason you would need any in its pure form anyways.
> 
> <snippage>



BTW I mentioned glycerin because apparently glycerin is an ingredient that is added to improve trace time per :





__





						Cold Process Liquid Soap
					

I saw someone asked for CP liquid soap recipes, and I know that many of us have posted our recipes spread throughout many threads.  I am going to share my recipes and process, and hopefully others will also.  Because my way is one way, not the "right" way, or the "only" way.  First, I use this...




					www.soapmakingforum.com
				




So it is an ingredient that is unsafe for me due to its most common methods of production and the difficulty of sourcing glycerin that is coconut-palm free.


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## Obsidian (Jul 8, 2020)

I can't imagine how difficult it is to completly avoid coconut in hair care, they put it in everthing.
I've tried different indian herbs in my hair but I have seborrheic dermatitis and they just don't clean enough.


Are you willing to use animal products? Lard is very gentle and it cures in 6 weeks vs a year. Tallow could be added to boost cleansing abilities, along with some olive oil to balance it out a little.

Wish I had a soap I could share but mine would all be cross contaminated with coconut.

Many people do use glycerin when making liquid soap but its not mandatory. It can be made with just water.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 8, 2020)

Not sure why you have this idea that glycerin needs to be added to soap. That is not at all a requirement. 

Glycerin is rarely added to bar soap (soap made with NaOH). 

It is an optional ingredient sometimes used for making liquid soap (soap made with KOH). You really don't have to make liquid soap with extra glycerin, however. I often make liquid soap with just water -- no added glycerin -- and it makes perfectly fine soap.

Glycerin is sometimes used as a solvent for "transparent" and melt-and-pour soaps, but even these soaps can be and often are made with solvents other than glycerin.

That said, glycerin is naturally produced during the saponification reaction of fats. This natural glycerin content in handcrafted soap (without any added glycerin) runs about 8-10% by weight.


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## Obsidian (Jul 8, 2020)

@DeeAnna  I'm not one to normally disagree with you and I do understand that the cleansing number has to do with the lauric/myristic and this kind of soap will be highly soluble.

I just don't understand why soapee says it won't tell you how clean the soap will get you while your article says these soap have the ability to strip away natural oils if the number is too high. They seem to contradict each other.


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## shunt2011 (Jul 8, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> BTW I mentioned glycerin because apparently glycerin is an ingredient that is added to improve trace time per :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are you making bar soap or liquid soap.   Glycerine is added to liquid soap.....if bar soap you are good to go.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 8, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> I can't imagine how difficult it is to completly avoid coconut in hair care, they put it in everthing.
> I've tried different indian herbs in my hair but I have seborrheic dermatitis and they just don't clean enough.
> 
> 
> ...



Only shikakai, areetha (soapnuts), and arappu (no English translation that I know of, or for shikakai now that I mention it) are CLEANSING herbs.  I make a tea of them - the "traditional" way is to make a paste and scrub your scalp with it, then rinse it out.  That is OK for pouring water over your head to rinse outside, not so great for modern plumbing. So I stick with the teas.

I've had excellent results from the conditioning herbs I've used to date.  If I could get my hands on them, I'd add some other stuff like mallow root and horsetail nettle to my arsenal but by the time I knew I wanted them, any place I could buy that stuff from had either closed for covid or couldn't restock.  

I am thinking of adding fenugreek to the shikakai/areetha to thicken it. Also to counteract the drying effect - even the amla/hibiscus rinse I use is very drying, and sort of terrifying the first time you do it.  The first time I used it it made my hair feel all tangledy and like a briar patch on my head, but heavy conditioning and detangling in the shower followed by a detangler outside the shower while my hair was still wet worked just fine.  When it dried, my hair was silky, bouncy, no flyaway, great resilience, volume and shine,stayed tangle free for days, and my curls sprang back into their full glory for the first time in decades.  

Getting your hair clean with herbs can be done but its a process and unless you have allergies - much easier to stick with conventional shampoo, LOL!

I got onto the hair shtick not because of allergies (didn't know I had them yet) but because my hair had been breaking off and losing its curl for like 30 years.  Turned out to be a severe protein deficiency (just in my hair) and between protein treatments (I use Neutral Protein Filler that coincidentally has no coconut content) and the Indian herbs, pretty soon I figured out there was something more going on with my scalp than just whatever shampoo of the moment wasn't "cleansing" enough.  They were actually irritating my scalp due to having allergens in them.  ALL of them, which is why nothing seemed to work properly.  More coconut = more irritation more quickly, but they were all irritating.

I may try making the paste-type soapnut blend JUST OCCASIONALLY and applied only to my scalp with a shampoo brush to really get my scalp clean, but not on all my hair, to minimize gunk going down the drain and maximize cleaning potential.

Someday I may try making a homemade shampoo but first I have to figure out the soap thing.  Burning in your nether regions is no fun and takes way longer to heal than hives and rashes elsewhere.

I'm lucky my lip balm has no coconut or palm content.  I use Dr. Bronner's Naked Lip Balm.  If you're not on the lookout for coconut allergens, the formulation looks very much like the Burt's Bees, yet the Burt's Bees didn't work for me and I almost didn't try the Dr. Bronner's because I already knew the similarly beeswax based Burt's Bees stuff didn't work.  Now I know why - coconut content!

Lard - by "lard" I assume you mean the stuff they sell in your local bodega marked "Manteca"?  That's actually mixed pork fat, not lard.  No commercially sold product marked "lard" is actually lard, its all mixed pork fat (and some of it even has beef tallow added).  

Sorry.  Veteran baker here.  Serious bakers like me search assiduously for real lard for pie crusts and it is quite expensive and hard to find.  Hardly anybody raises lard hogs any more and "regular" hogs and modern breeds don't produce more than a little bit of actual lard.

Anyway I have no problem whatsoever with animal products. As long as manteca-lard doesn't have palm additives (they use them in vegetable shortening to harden it up) I'm good with it.  I've been considering the use of manteca-lard since I saw it in the list of soap fats, eg - since YESTERDAY LOL!  I haven't seen any coconut free recipes that use it yet.  It's hard for me to figure out how to use and combine these things because every single recipe I've seen so far is either full of unobtainium (ONE recipe that used several oils/fats I can't easily get) or its 100% olive oil that takes a whole year to cure or ... the vast majority are chock-full of coconut/palm products.  I don't really have a springboard to get me started.



DeeAnna said:


> Not sure why you have this idea that glycerin needs to be added to soap. That is not at all a requirement.
> 
> Glycerin is rarely added to bar soap (soap made with NaOH).
> 
> ...



I don't know that it NEEDS to be added but people DO add it, especially when they want to improve trace time.  Its not something that is obviously a problem for someone with my allergies unless you know how it is made.  So I mention it so that people know I can't use it, and also that is why glycerin soaps are not an option for me. 

Also because I have been thinking that a liquid version of a castile soap may be something I can achieve in under a year.  I swear I found a recipe/process on here for doing cold process castile soap but now I can't find it.  Dang me!

I also have no idea where I would get potassium hydroxide.  I can get Sodium Hydroxide - Tractor supply sells 2 lbs of a pure sodium hydroxide drain cleaner for $15 (I forget the brand) - but not sure I can find potassium hydroxide.

I can't get mail so mail order is out.  And if getting via Amazon, it has to be shippable to an Amazon locker, or delivered direct to my door (not a mailbox) by UPS.  If USPS gets hold of it they just send it back because they won't acknowledge my disability and they now just return all my mail.  It goes to a distant (for me) mail pod instead of the pod right across the street 2 doors up from my house and they will not move my box to the nearer mail pod nor give me home delivery because they say I don't LOOK disabled.  And since 90% or more of all UPS shipments now go through USPS for the last leg, well.  There I am.  Can't mail order.  And not everything on Amazon is deliverable to an Amazon locker.  Just so you know.  I'm limited on my shopping/shipping options.  Sorry!  So picky, me.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 8, 2020)

shunt2011 said:


> Are you making bar soap or liquid soap.   Glycerine is added to liquid soap.....if bar soap you are good to go.



Well since it takes a whole year for castile soap bars to cure, yes, I AM looking for a coconut-babassu-palm free alternative such as liquid castile soap.  I swear I thought I had found a cold-process liquid castile soap recipe/process on here and now I can't find it again ...


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## DeeAnna (Jul 8, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> @DeeAnna....I just don't understand why soapee says it won't tell you how clean the soap will get you while your article says these soap have the ability to strip away natural oils if the number is too high. They seem to contradict each other.



According to the quote provided by Pyewacket (I haven't gone to Soapee to confirm), the info in Soapee says "..._The cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean_..."

I'm assuming this is what you're concerned about? I think this is an accurate statement. 

Soap with a "cleansing" number of zero (or any other number) can cleanse the skin, meaning remove grime and excess oils. I mean -- we all know that from 100% olive oil (castile type) soap which has a zero cleansing number. Right?

So if any soap with any cleansing number can clean the skin, then the "cleansing" number tells a person nothing about whether the soap can clean the skin.

What the cleansing number does indicate (besides the soap's solubility in salty/hard/cold water) is whether the soap is more likely to be a skin irritant. Irritancy is different than cleansing. A high myristic-lauric soap has the ability to remove not only grime and excess oils, but also to strip the natural fats and proteins that are needed to protect the surface of the skin. 

If you've ever washed with a new soap -- maybe a test recipe or someone else's soap -- and had your skin feel taut or dry and look "ashy" after bathing, that's the kind of stripping I'm talking about. If you keep washing with that particular soap, your skin will probably get drier feeling and drier looking to the point you'll start feeling uncomfortable and itchy.

A high cleansing number => high in lauric and myristic acids => more likely to strip "good" fats and proteins => more likely to irritate the skin, especially sensitive or dry skin.

I'm not sure I'm answering your question, really. Please ask again if I've missed your point.


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## linne1gi (Jul 8, 2020)

This is a really good thread, Just sayin'


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## CathyB (Jul 8, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> This is a really good thread, Just sayin'


Absolutely.


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## Hope Ann (Jul 8, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> I have gone through hundreds of online recipes and have only found a bare handful that are safe for me and they're all for 100% olive oil based soaps.
> 
> The problem with that is that apparently it is true that these need to be cured for a full year.
> 
> I REALLY need to feel clean before that!



Search this group for Zaneys No-slime Castille.  Not slimy and cures FAST.  I make my water with double the salt, etc. So I can use aloe juice for the other half.  It helps with bubbles and feels nice.  Do be sure to gel.  I just made a batch the other week and have tested it a few times and it's already nice to use.  Of course it will improve with age.

Another option is lard or tallow.  Those prefer a 4 month cure but are ok to use sooner.  Lard is usually cheap at local grocers, and makes a lovely creamy lather that feels so nice.  Try a smidge of canola (10% or so) to add a luxurious feeling.  That is also a cheap ingredient.

Hope


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 8, 2020)

First of all, my heart goes out to you for all you are going through. What a nightmare! I truly admire that you haven't lost your sense of humor or your ability to string words together with intelligence and a genuine gift for written communication.  Sometimes all we can do is shake our heads and laugh when things go awry beyond reason or even comprehension. After reading through this thread I have a few comments...


Pyewacket said:


> I don't know enough to know what I don't know, LOL!









Pyewacket said:


> For me the only thing I care about is NOT HAVING ANY COCONUT, BABASSU, OR PALM OIL in it.  Or anything else related thereto.  That includes glycerine


I hear ya! BTW, Gycerin is a byproduct of soapmaking. It can be eliminated by an old-fashioned technique called "Salting Out". DeeAnna (who is a wealth of information!) has a tutorial on her Soapy Stuff page. I tried it once a long time ago and it does make "pure soap" but you lose about a third of the batch when all the impurities are salted out, including glycerin.


Pyewacket said:


> I swear I don't know which is worse, contact dermatitis on your scalp, or dirt on top of slowly healing contact dermatitis.


 YIKES! This may not work for you, but I once advised a woman whose 3-year-old grandson had some condition on his scalp she just couldn't clear no matter what she tried. I recommended she try *Polysorbate 80* and it worked. I've used it as a clarifier before shampooing and as a cleanser between shampoos. I like it but it is coconut oil based. *Polysorbate 20*, however, is olive oil based and may work as well. Dunno. Apply with dry hands to dry scalp. Add water. Massage scalp. Rinses clean.


> For the shampoo I have shikakai and soapnuts and for conditioner I have (all in powdered form)


Good news! I know one other person who uses your type of hair cleansing remedy. She uses a tea, herbal extracts, and I believe rye flour of all things. She is a member of SMF but recently MIA. I put in a call to her. She's here in CO -- about 2 hours away. Hopefully she'll show up with some useful information for you... or at the very least, a boatload of empathy.


> THANK DOG I don't go commando (anymore).


Oh my. On top of everything else, I see you're dyslexic! Haha.


> Imagine finding out you are allergic to ALL commercial shampoo, conditioner, and soap when you are over 60.  That's a lot to have to change on pretty short notice and with very very few Western alternatives.


That is why I got into soapmaking at age 60. Can't use the commercial stuff either. My dermatologist recommended Aleppo Soap (from Syria) for my dry sensitive skin. I'm 77 now and I not only make Aleppo, but lots of other goodies as well. It's a great hobby!


> Also doctors think there is no such thing as coconut allergy so ... nobody bothered to test me for it when I started getting mystery rashes about 15 years ago, they just shrugged and said "contact dermatitis" and handed me a permascription for cortisone cream (eg perpetual permanent prescription).


That's a VERY familiar story! I recently developed a case of "COVID rash" on my hand. My dermatologist diagnosed it as "contact dermatitis" and prescribed Cortisone. I said "No thank you. I don't do Cortisone" and asked if he had any other suggestions. His reply, "Moisturize".  After several days of moisturizing, the rash got worse. Without taking time to explain my thinking, I soaked my hand in salt water for 20 minutes a day for 4 days. It stung at first but that didn't last. It got crusty on top which I was then able to rub off. Then I whipped up another moisturizer and it has now cleared up almost completely.

So, on that note, have you ever tried Epsom Salts for your all-over rash? I like Dr Teals Eucalyptus Mint but it's also available unscented at Walmart and Target. I'm not sure it will help ease the itchies but it is incredibly relaxing and rejuvenating.  Just a thought.


> Only hemp oil saved me from utter despair this past week with the pretty-near full body rash.


I have taught many *experienced* soapers to make Cold Process Liquid Soap. It's actually the easiest way to make LS. However, as I understand it, you've never made soap before so it would be easier for me to whip up a small batch for you to try. Nuthin' but 100% hemp oil, water & KOH (potassium hydroxide). As it happens, I have hemp oil on hand and just got in some fresh KOH. I use  hemp in my Dr Bronner's Baby Mild Castile Dupe formula.

Anything I can do to help you out of your misery I am happy to give it a go.

Many blessings, Zany in CO (aka the "Rodney Dangerfield" of SMF) LOL


----------



## Kcryss (Jul 9, 2020)

@Zany_in_CO you're too funny! LOL

@Pyewacket 

I agree with Zany, you've gone through a lot and I can't imagine how difficult it must be for you. I truly believe commercial soap products are to blame and herbs are the answer. 

I stopped using commercial shampoos more than a year ago and couldn't be happier. I've tried various combinations of herbs and always come back to my original recipe. If you could call it a recipe. lol
1 tbsp rosemary steeped in 1/2 cup boiling water. I cover this while steeping and cool to room temperature. Once cooled, add 1 tbsp. rye flour. Mix well. Wet hair, apply mixture, rub all over your scalp and leave in at least 5 minutes. I do this at the beginning of my shower and rinse it out at the end. Best to use light rye if you can get it, but unless you're a baker even dark rye is hard to source right now. After towel drying I use a very very scant amount of oil rubbed between my hands and dotted on the ends or areas that tend to dry out. For the oil I use rice bran oil, shea butter, sunflower oil, or castor oil. Depends on my mood or what's handy at the time.

I think for what you're describing rosemary, chamomile,and comfrey might be a good combo to try with or without the rye flour. However, I'm not really sure what exactly the rye flour brings to the party ... have researched extensively and still have no idea. There seems to be some property the helps with the cleansing, I just have no idea what it could be at this time.

I have tried soapnut liquid, yucca, and soapwart for a boost to cleansing and had mixed results. Soapnuts for me was too harsh, left my hair too dry. Yucca and soapwart in small amounts was ok, but I still don't use them often and I don't really like leaving them sitting in my hair for 5 minutes.

Chamomile and hops might also be helpful for you condition.

I also use horsetail, mallow, flax, burdock and/or amla if I need a boost of conditioning, but generally not until I've rinsed the rosemary/rye out of my hair and I skip the oil rub when I use the herbs.

One of my daughters recently came up with a scalp condition and so far no one has been able to identify the cause. I highly suspect coconut oil and/or commercial products as the culprit but haven't been able to convince her yet to stop using commercial shampoos/conditioners. I figure one day she will be desperate enough to listen. She has been told that the condition is: eczema, psoriasis, bacterial, and allergy. It changes every time she goes in and they just keep giving her various things to try. Prescription shampoos, cortisone, benadryl creams etc.  She keeps using what she's told, but none of it has really helped. 

Not sure if any of this is helpful or not, but wanted to at least throw out a few more potential options.

Blessings,
Chris


----------



## SoapSisters (Jul 9, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> @Zany_in_CO you're too funny! LOL
> 
> @Pyewacket
> 
> ...


Thank you for this! My daughter has a similar scalp issue and is also using prescription shampoos. Maybe she'll be willing to try your solution. When you say "rosemary", do you mean fresh rosemary plants (the needles)?


----------



## Pyewacket (Jul 9, 2020)

Zany_in_CO said:


> <snippage>* Gycerin is a byproduct of soapmaking.* It can be eliminated by an old-fashioned technique called "Salting Out". DeeAnna (who is a wealth of information!) has a tutorial on her Soapy Stuff page. I tried it once a long time ago and it does make "pure soap" but you lose about a third of the batch when all the impurities are salted out, including glycerin.



Actually glycerin as a byproduct of the soapmaking process would not be a problem for me,  just the vegetable glycerin you buy as an additive.  As long as I put no coconut/palm IN, I will get no coconut/palm OUT, but when you buy it as an additive it is sourced primarily from coconut and secondarily from palm and is usually mixed anyway.  It is PROBABLY possible to source "safe" (for me) glycerin but it would be difficult for me to actually GET it in hand.  For me I think simpler is better so ... anything that MIGHT be coconut/palm derived I just eschew entirely.  Safer that way.

BTW I have been reading your thread about non-slimey olive oil (castile) soap and I have questions but I'll post them over there when (if) I get my thoughts straightened out.  Between that thread and the one on cold processed liquid soap I'm starting to feel like I'm caught inside a kaleidoscope - lots of thoughts just jumbled all over the place LOL!

RE herbal hair cleansing:



Zany_in_CO said:


> Good news! I know one other person who uses your type of hair cleansing remedy. She uses a tea, herbal extracts, and I believe rye flour of all things. She is a member of SMF but recently MIA. I put in a call to her. She's here in CO -- about 2 hours away. Hopefully she'll show up with some useful information for you... or at the very least, a boatload of empathy.



In India, they sometimes add gram flour (ground up chickpeas, the small kind not the big garbanzos aka Kabuli Chana) to soapnuts but I've got this thing about putting food in my hair.  I know, its silly and I miss out on a lot of free protein treatment via yogurt/mayo/egg hair masks etc.  But I'm getting to the point ... I'd try almost anything.

Also I haven't actually witnessed any of the processes for using these herbs.  I KNOW about them but never learned the actual processes.  And Indian recipes amount to "take some ginger, 3 handfuls of this, add some of that" ... if you don't already know the amounts an Indian recipe is generally not going to help you much LOL!

This is not QUITE so true these days as it was 40 or 50 years ago.  But I will always remember the cookbook my S. Indian MIL sent us in the 70s - it literally included not a single measurement LOL!  In addition to being totally in Telugu which I neither speak nor read. 

At any rate the vast majority of instructions for how to use these herbs online are still old-style.  "Some" of this and "some" of that, LOL!  Modern Indians by and large don't use this stuff any more, and the ones who do, are probably not on the internet.

I was SUPPOSED to make another batch of soapnut/shikakai tea yesterday but I fell asleep reading this forum (specifically your non-slimey castile soap thread) instead.  I don't think I'll get to it today either, but TOMORROW FOR SURE.

You know I have a whole house to paint and tile to lay and the rest of the bathroom walls to rip out which includes tile on floating mortar bed 4' up the wall which requires liberal application of a sledgehammer and cabinets to strip and repaint and ... and ... and ... STUPID ALLERGIES LOL!



Zany_in_CO said:


> Oh my. On top of everything else, I see you're dyslexic! Haha.



Not actually, that's just me being my usual brand of weird.  I prefer to be grateful to someone who can appreciate my gratitude and my dogs ALWAYS appreciated it (even if they never understood it LOL!)

I miss my goggies.  What with the house ripped up and likely to stay that way for some time to come (and after my Trudy died 2 years ago) well ... no goggies here until things get better.



Zany_in_CO said:


> That is why I got into soapmaking at age 60. Can't use the commercial stuff either. My dermatologist recommended Aleppo Soap (from Syria) for my dry sensitive skin. I'm 77 now and I not only make Aleppo, but lots of other goodies as well. It's a great hobby!



You give me hope!  At my age I'm not all that adventurous any more.  Lots of things daunt me that never would have even been a blip on my radar before.



Zany_in_CO said:


> That's a VERY familiar story! I recently developed a case of "COVID rash" on my hand. My dermatologist diagnosed it as "contact dermatitis" and prescribed Cortisone. I said "No thank you. I don't do Cortisone" and asked if he had any other suggestions. His reply, "Moisturize".  After several days of moisturizing, the rash got worse. Without taking time to explain my thinking, I soaked my hand in salt water for 20 minutes a day for 4 days. It stung at first but that didn't last. It got crusty on top which I was then able to rub off. Then I whipped up another moisturizer and it has now cleared up almost completely.
> 
> So, on that note, have you ever tried Epsom Salts for your all-over rash? I like Dr Teals Eucalyptus Mint but it's also available unscented at Walmart and Target. I'm not sure it will help ease the itchies but it is incredibly relaxing and rejuvenating.  Just a thought.



That doctor was an idiot.  You don't slather more stuff on your rash that was probably caused by something you slathered on before.  I hate it when they get all pissy because we want alternatives to being fobbed off just because they don't have a quick answer to our problems.  I've got weird memory/cognitive issues (including having NO SENSE OF THE PASSAGE OF TIME which has some advantages as well as disadvantages) and they stuck me with a "fibromyalgia" diagnosis.

Now every time I see a doctor the first thing out of their mouths is "Fibromyalgia is a diagnosis of exclusion" which is doctor-code for "you're a head case, go see a shrink and never darken my door again".

Hence I don't see doctors if there is any way I can possibly avoid it.

Believe it or not, hemp oil really has had the healing and soothing properties attributed to it on the interwebz.  I'm not a follower of woo - if you have to "believe" in something that means it doesn't work.  So if it works when I DON'T believe in it, I'm pretty sure it actually works - at least for me.  So between my inability to realize the passage of time (one of the ADVANTAGES of that particular disability) and the hemp oil soothing and speeding healing, I weathered the near-full-body rash pretty well.  (You don't suffer as much if you don't realize for how LONG you have already been suffering)

It's healing.  It's left little purple bruise-like marks and there is still some rash and some hives in the hardest-to-apply-hemp-oil spots, but I'm OK now.  The first 24 hours were the worst.  Some people are put off by the odor of the hemp oil (smells like dried grass clippings to me) but heck, I don't care, at least it didn't cost me $150 for an office visit that basically boils down to a chance for the doctor to sneer at me some more.

I hadn't thought of an epsom salt bath, and I keep that on hand at all times.  I also hadn't thought of using an antihistamine until it was pretty much not needed any more LOL!  Hopefully I will avoid another incident like this but if it gets me again anyway, I've been reminded now LOL!



Zany_in_CO said:


> I have taught many *experienced* soapers to make Cold Process Liquid Soap. It's actually the easiest way to make LS. However, as I understand it, you've never made soap before so it would be easier for me to whip up a small batch for you to try. Nuthin' but 100% hemp oil, water & KOH (potassium hydroxide). As it happens, I have hemp oil on hand and just got in some fresh KOH. I use  hemp in my Dr Bronner's Baby Mild Castile Dupe formula.
> 
> Anything I can do to help you out of your misery I am happy to give it a go.
> 
> Many blessings, Zany in CO (aka the "Rodney Dangerfield" of SMF) LOL



I do want to learn to do it myself.  My "thing" with liquid soap is the potassium hydroxide, I don't know of a local source for that.  But there is a guy on here who has posted several times about making liquid soap from his non-aged cold process castile soap and I hope to contact him soon for more information about that.  He sort of got slammed because his "process" amounted to putting shavings in a bottle with some water but you know what?  I care about results, not cachet.  If I EVER cared about slavishly following the rules just because they exist, I would never have gone to college at all, let alone ended up in the hard sciences LOL!

The other issue with liquid soap is glycerin.  I've read that it isn't actually needed but every "recipe" I've seen so far seems to require it.  Well except for the guy who just melts his castile bar soap.  Do you have a thread about your liquid soap process?  I've been reading this one:






						Cold Process Liquid Soap
					

I saw someone asked for CP liquid soap recipes, and I know that many of us have posted our recipes spread throughout many threads.  I am going to share my recipes and process, and hopefully others will also.  Because my way is one way, not the "right" way, or the "only" way.  First, I use this...




					www.soapmakingforum.com
				




But all her recipes call for significant coconut oil.  Plus the KOH that I don't know where to get.

Thank you so much for your thoughts and (especially) the information you have shared.  You'll hear from me over on the non-slimy castile soap thread pretty soon.


----------



## Pyewacket (Jul 9, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> @Zany_in_CO you're too funny! LOL
> 
> @Pyewacket
> 
> ...



Fresh rosemary or dried?  I can get the former, pretty sure I have the latter on hand.

As to the rye flour (and I probably do have that on hand, I am a baker, but I'll have to dig it out from wherever I've hidden it).  In India they use gram flour (ground up chickpeas).  It provides a sort of very gentle scrubbing/polishing action and supposedly "purifies" the scalp by "absorbing" bad stuff.  The former sounds reasonable, the latter sounds like woo, LOL!  Rye probably serves much the same purpose.



Kcryss said:


> I have tried soapnut liquid, yucca, and soapwart for a boost to cleansing and had mixed results. Soapnuts for me was too harsh, left my hair too dry. Yucca and soapwart in small amounts was ok, but I still don't use them often and I don't really like leaving them sitting in my hair for 5 minutes.
> 
> Chamomile and hops might also be helpful for you condition.
> 
> I also use horsetail, mallow, flax, burdock and/or amla if I need a boost of conditioning, but generally not until I've rinsed the rosemary/rye out of my hair and I skip the oil rub when I use the herbs.



Soapnuts can be very drying - I plan on adding some fenugreek to counteract that and also to thicken the "tea" so it is a little more likely to stay around in the hair until I'm ready to rinse it out.  I use a 360 sprayer to apply conditioning herbal teas but to actually cleanse I feel like it would work better if it didn't just drip out right away.

Many of the conditioning herbs can also be or feel very drying - amla (which I LOVE) is one of those.  I haven't worked with the herbs I have enough yet to figure out where to get the most conditioning as we think of it, which essentially boils down to detangling.  Fenugreek does provide slip so that's important to detangling.  I'm still working on it.

I do have the chamomile on hand, as well as some green tea and I think I have a lavender tea I got for my hair somewhere here as well.  My plan is (probably tomorrow for sure if I can't manage it today) to make up a new batch of "shampoo" using the chamomile, the green tea, soapnuts, shikakai, and fenugreek.  I'll also need to mix up a new batch of the amla/hibiscus rinse I've been using with some of my other herbs listed above - but I've not decided which yet. Probably I will add some aloe vera powder and neem (for its alleged antiseptic qualities).  I'll throw in some dried rosemary and see what happens, and next time I hit the grocery I'll look for fresh.

Horsetail nettle and mallow root are on my list.  The latter provides slip, the former I THINK has silica in it to strengthen hair strands, which is always a good thing for my stupidly fine hair that breaks if you look at it cross-eyed. I have to get out to the local health stores and see if they've gotten some of this stuff back in stock yet.

I want to add arappu to the cleansing mix but I don't have it on hand yet.  I don't have a name for it in English (in fact I'm pretty sure that's the Tamil word for it, don't know what it would be called in Hindi or Telugu).  It is in stock on Amazon after being out of stock during the pandemic.  I forget the brand offhand, but its the one that isn't stupidly expensive.  It's supposed to increase foaming action and condition as well as cleanse.  As for most Indian herbs, it is intended to be used in a thick paste.  I am interested to see what kind of conditioning I can get from it as a tea and if it increases the cleansing ability of shikakai/soapnuts in tea form, but I'll try it in the traditional paste method with shikakai & soapnuts as well.  I usually avoid the paste method because I don't want to clog up my plumbing.  But I don't think the occasional scalp-scrub will hurt.



Kcryss said:


> One of my daughters recently came up with a scalp condition and so far no one has been able to identify the cause. I highly suspect coconut oil and/or commercial products as the culprit but haven't been able to convince her yet to stop using commercial shampoos/conditioners. I figure one day she will be desperate enough to listen. She has been told that the condition is: eczema, psoriasis, bacterial, and allergy. It changes every time she goes in and they just keep giving her various things to try. Prescription shampoos, cortisone, benadryl creams etc.  She keeps using what she's told, but none of it has really helped.



Yup, that's pretty much the reaction I got every time I showed up with yet another rash.  Can't be bothered to figure out the cause, they just throw a tube of ointment at you and ignore the actual problem.  I could have had all this straightened out 15 years ago if they had bothered to test for coconut allergies (and I was more up to the task of learning all this new stuff back then).  Having a visible rash at least kept them from deciding it was just Female Hypochondria (boy do I hate doctors).



Kcryss said:


> Not sure if any of this is helpful or not, but wanted to at least throw out a few more potential options.
> 
> Blessings,
> Chris



Yes, helpful indeed!  I thank you for your consideration and kindness.


----------



## Kcryss (Jul 9, 2020)

SoapSisters said:


> Thank you for this! My daughter has a similar scalp issue and is also using prescription shampoos. Maybe she'll be willing to try your solution. When you say "rosemary", do you mean fresh rosemary plants (the needles)?



If she gives it a try I would love to hear the outcome.

Yes, I use the rosemary needles. You can use either fresh or dried, but I generally use dried for hair and save the good stuff for foods and beverages.


----------



## Marsi (Jul 9, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> In India, they sometimes add gram flour (ground up chickpeas, the small kind not the big garbanzos aka Kabuli Chana) to soapnuts but I've got this thing about putting food in my hair.  I know, its silly and I miss out on a lot of free protein treatment via yogurt/mayo/egg hair masks etc.  But I'm getting to the point ... I'd try almost anything.



think of the seed

hemp oil is oil extracted from the seed
chickpeas are seeds
gram flour is ground seeds

seeds sustain

your aversion to food products on your skin might be linked to a natural response to oxidized rancid flours
aim for fresh ground flours and oil a moment from the fruit


----------



## Kcryss (Jul 9, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> Fresh rosemary or dried?



I use dried. I save the fresh stuff for foods/drinks. 



Pyewacket said:


> As to the rye flour (and I probably do have that on hand, I am a baker, but I'll have to dig it out from wherever I've hidden it).  In India they use gram flour (ground up chickpeas).  It provides a sort of very gentle scrubbing/polishing action and supposedly "purifies" the scalp by "absorbing" bad stuff.  The former sounds reasonable, the latter sounds like woo, LOL!  Rye probably serves much the same purpose.



I've heard of using gram flour. I wonder if it's easier to obtain these days. I'll have to check it out and see if the results are the same. 
My hair if very fine and limp, the rye flour (for whatever crazy reason) gives it body and fullness. 




Pyewacket said:


> ... but to actually cleanse I feel like it would work better if it didn't just drip out right away.



I totally agree. 



Pyewacket said:


> Horsetail nettle and mallow root are on my list.  The latter provides slip, the former I THINK has silica in it to strengthen hair strands, which is always a good thing for my stupidly fine hair that breaks if you look at it cross-eyed. I have to get out to the local health stores and see if they've gotten some of this stuff back in stock yet.



I have a niece in Nebraska in the middle of nowhere. We have foraging plans soon and I plan on finding all of those to bring home and dry.   In the meantime, the internet and delivery are my friends. I've never come across those types of herbs in health food stores except in gel cap form.  



Pyewacket said:


> I want to add arappu to the cleansing mix but I don't have it on hand yet.  It's supposed to increase foaming action and condition as well as cleanse.



I haven't heard of this one until now, I will definitely be looking into it for the foaming and conditioning properties! 




Pyewacket said:


> Yup, that's pretty much the reaction I got every time I showed up with yet another rash.  Can't be bothered to figure out the cause, they just throw a tube of ointment at you and ignore the actual problem.  I could have had all this straightened out 15 years ago if they had bothered to test for coconut allergies (and I was more up to the task of learning all this new stuff back then).  Having a visible rash at least kept them from deciding it was just Female Hypochondria (boy do I hate doctors).


 Right there with you regarding "science" and what they consider to be "folklore."




Pyewacket said:


> Yes, helpful indeed!  I thank you for your consideration and kindness.


Happy to help!


----------



## AliOop (Jul 9, 2020)

Rhassoul clay might be another option for hair washing. It can be drying, but as long as I don't use it too often, it works well for me. I put it some in a condiment bottle with a bit of warm water, and shake to mix it into a runny paste. Then quirt it on my scalp, scrub to clean, and rinse with cooled marshmallow "tea" that may also have some fenugreek or amla in it.


----------



## Pyewacket (Jul 9, 2020)

Marsi said:


> think of the seed
> 
> hemp oil is oil extracted from the seed
> chickpeas are seeds
> ...



No, really, it is entirely because it seems so weird to me to put food in my hair.  Not really logical.  Totally emotional.  Like "YUK EGG IN MY HAIR".

In reality lots of people get benefits from egg/mayo/yogurt and whatnot hair masques and other such stuff.  But I'm all about the YUK factor LOL!

It is easier for me to contemplate a dry powder ending up in my hair than egg/yogurt goop LOL!  So at least there is that. Actually, now that I think about it, rye flour or besan (gram flour) aren't really food YET.  I suppose that makes the thought a little easier as well.

I will be trying either besan or rye for a scalp scrub, whichever I find first.  I have them both on hand, just not sure exactly where they are (this WHOLE HOUSE is torn up due to renovations, I had stuff in the kitchen ripped out and redone as well as the bathroom while we were messing with the broken plumbing).  Once upon a time I would and could never have contemplated oiling my hair or rubbing oil on a rash, but now hemp oil is my life preserver in a sea of coconut.  

So I CAN change!



AliOop said:


> Rhassoul clay might be another option for hair washing. It can be drying, but as long as I don't use it too often, it works well for me. I put it some in a condiment bottle with a bit of warm water, and shake to mix it into a runny paste. Then quirt it on my scalp, scrub to clean, and rinse with cooled marshmallow "tea" that may also have some fenugreek or amla in it.



I had heard of hair masks that have clay in them.  My first thought on seeing that kind of thing is to imagine my uber fine hair coated with a thick layer of goopy mud.  So I've not looked into anything like that much.

However if I stop thinking about it as shampoo and instead frame it as a scalp scrub, it makes more sense to me.

When you say it is "drying" do you mean to your scalp or your hair or both?  Now I just need to find where to get it.  Hopefully some source on Amazon will send it to an Amazon locker and it won't cost the earth.

OOOOOO unintentional pun there.  Clay costing the earth, LOL!



Kcryss said:


> I use dried. I save the fresh stuff for foods/drinks.



Well that makes it easier.  AND cheaper.



Kcryss said:


> I've heard of using gram flour. I wonder if it's easier to obtain these days. I'll have to check it out and see if the results are the same.
> My hair if very fine and limp, the rye flour (for whatever crazy reason) gives it body and fullness.



Yeah, mine too.  One reason may be that it removes excess oil and grease better than herbal rinses/washes alone so that your hair is getting full benefit of the natural oils your hair produces.  Just a guess.

Besan is the common name for gram flour and I get mine at the nearest Indian grocery.  I have it on hand all the time, I cook mostly Indian food.  It will probably actually be easier for me to find than the rye flour.  I use it more often.



Kcryss said:


> I have a niece in Nebraska in the middle of nowhere. We have foraging plans soon and I plan on finding all of those to bring home and dry.   In the meantime, the internet and delivery are my friends. I've never come across those types of herbs in health food stores except in gel cap form.



I live in a desert so ... unless I want tumbleweed, rabbit sage, or cactus, I'm out of luck on the foraging front.

I'm surprised you can only find this stuff in gel caps.  Wherever I've lived there has always been at least one health food store or co-op that carries all sorts of herbal stuff in bulk bins.  Even when I was living in rural MO, there were several small health food stores I relied on even for some of my Indian spices.  I think even Whole Foods has a section for herbs in bulk though I don't shop there even out of their bulk bins unless I can't find something I really need anywhere else.  'Cuz 'spensive!

Though bulk bins have generally been empty of late because of Covid.  It may be awhile before I see this stuff in bulk bins again.

re arappu:



Kcryss said:


> I haven't heard of this one until now, I will definitely be looking into it for the foaming and conditioning properties!



It hasn't been much known outside of rural Tamil Nadu until relatively recently.  It's a folk remedy commonly used by "country people" - generally looked down on by educated people.  Until somebody decides its trendy, then it blows up and the local people end up not being able to afford it any more.

It is one of those things that is both simple and precise.  It is the youngest leaves that serve the purpose, older leaves are just so much sludge if you try to use them the same way.  And since its become trendy outside of its area of origin, there is incentive to ignore such factors.  Arappu sold commercially is commonly adulterated with other leaves (in the worst case, totally faked) or they don't seperate young tender leaves from older leaves and so reduces efficacy.  For one thing it is easier for a mass producer not to bother to separate leaves, just strip everything off the tree.  Not great for the tree either.  There's a big difference between stripping a handful of young tender leaves off a tree in your back yard a couple of times a week, and some conglomerate coming in and offering the locals money for leaves by the basket load or sending crews out to collect vast quantities LOL!

So buying it online is sort of risky.  I've had good luck with Terrasoul and MB products, but there is a lot of adulteration, old stuff, and fake stuff out there.  I can't say whether this particular supplier - I think its FoodHealth?  Or something like that? is reliable or not yet.  I know I wouldn't try the other brand currently available on Amazon, it is CRAZY expensive.

Actually I should look for it on Mountain Rose Herbs and some places like that.  I can't shop there but if I ever get out of this place to somewhere I can get mail again, I've got a long list of stuff I'd like to have that I haven't been able to find locally.



Kcryss said:


> Right there with you regarding "science" and what they consider to be "folklore."



Ah well I AM all about the science.  I hate woo.  When there is science behind the herbs I've got no problem with it, and there often is.  I think we need real medicine, but when hemp oil serves me better than a cortisone cream to soothe and heal a rash, you have to ask, just who is pushing the woo now?

Plus the idea that certain things can't exist because they are supposedly "rare" - like coconut allergies.  I submit that when you won't actually TEST for the allergy, you cannot POSSIBLY know how rare or common it is.  Maybe you don't test for it first - but you should test for it when other options don't work out. As opposed to just blowing the patient off with a permascription for cortisone cream or the like.

There is also the issue of increasing exposure.  Over the past 20 or 30 years, coconut and palm products have gradually taken over the personal care industry.  When I was young such ingredients were exotic and expensive.  Now they're the cheapest option and they're in EVERYTHING.  EVERYTHING! 

EH-       

VREE-     

THING!!!!!   

Part of the perception of "coconut allergy" being rare is based on the fact that most of us were never exposed to coconut outside of the odd piece of candy left in the bottom of the box until it goes stale.  Now we are exposed to it EVERY SINGLE DAY in everything from toilet paper to hand soap.  OF COURSE allergic reactions to it are going to be more common than they used to be, and that should be taken in to account.  But it isn't.  Sometimes doctors are no more rational than faith healers, and with much less excuse.

Thanks for your help and advice, there are obviously great people around here.


----------



## AliOop (Jul 9, 2020)

Some articles about rhassoul clay:

Healthline - Rhassoul Clay - this talks about some pros and cons of using clay, including other clays that can be used if you can't find rhassoul.

How to Wash Your Hair with Clay - this article mentions using vinegar to "restore pH" which isn't completely accurate. But at least she gives a process and pictures showing how to use it for washing.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 9, 2020)

@AliOop
@Zany_in_CO
@Kcryss

So I went and looked for more info on arappu and FINALLY FOUND a recipe for Indian hair wash I can (mostly) follow.

You can find an article about it here:









						How to make your own herbal hair wash powder
					

This post is the result of almost a year of experimenting, learning, photographing, and above all using my hair wash powder to figure out how it works–for my hair, for my schedule, even for m…




					www.paticheri.com
				




It's pretty good right up until it tells me to add a "handful" of vettiver root LOL!

I will note that this article assumes you can pretty much gather most of these right out of your backyard, so the one thing I think we definitely need to do in a different manner is the issue of curry leaves.

Dried curry leaves are basically nothing but dust.  The "good stuff" in curry leaves is so volatile that the drying process in and of itself pretty much destroys any value in the leaf.  Perhaps not so much when you pull a handful off the curry leaf tree in your backyard (they grow like weeds in most of India), dry it in the sun on your windowsill for a few hours, and immediately grind it up and use it.

But anything we can get here pre-packaged is just plain junk.  So instead, make a tea with a handful of FRESH curry leaves and use that instead of the dried leaves suggested in the article.  Most Indian groceries carry them fresh, and some online shops will ship them (you shouldn't try to ship them in the middle of summer though).  I use iShopIndia for online Indian groceries and I have bought curry leaves from them in the past.

I freeze my excess fresh curry leaves and this is fine AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT LET THEM THAW before using them.  So - straight into the oil when you're seasoning food, and straight into boiling water if you're trying to make a tea.  If you pop them right into whatever it's all golden, but if you let them thaw it is GROSS.

This is a really good article, with sensible explanations for the use of each herb.  Just what I've been looking for for over a year, actual details instead of vague "take some of this and some of that and use it" LOL!

EDIT:  BTW this calls for GREEN gram, not just gram, flour.  Green gram is mung beans (aka mung dal in India).  I've seen several types of gram/dal called for in Indian hair masques - and haven't paid a lot of attention because I didn't plan to use them.  So just in case I mistook green gram flour (mung bean flour) for just gram flour (besan) maybe we should assume the mung bean flour instead of the chickpea flour LOL!


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## Kcryss (Jul 9, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> Well that makes it easier.  AND cheaper.


Very much so! 




Pyewacket said:


> One reason may be that it removes excess oil and grease better than herbal rinses/washes alone so that your hair is getting full benefit of the natural oils your hair produces.


You may be right, that might be all it really boils down to in the end.



Pyewacket said:


> Besan is the common name for gram flour and I get mine at the nearest Indian grocery.  I have it on hand all the time, I cook mostly Indian food.


 Interesting, I would have assumed gram flour was used for making graham crackers. 



Pyewacket said:


> I live in a desert so ... unless I want tumbleweed, rabbit sage, or cactus, I'm out of luck on the foraging front.


Borderline desert here, that's why I'm heading for Nebraska.



Pyewacket said:


> I'm surprised you can only find this stuff in gel caps.


There are still a few bulk bins around the Denver area, but they mostly carry grains and food related herbs (for the most part). I miss the days of our Wild Oats store and all the bulk herbs you could imagine. Sadly, those days are long gone ...




Pyewacket said:


> Ah well I AM all about the science.  I hate woo.  When there is science behind the herbs I've got no problem with it, and there often is.


I'm all about the science too when it comes to herbs, but most drs I've run into believe it's all woo and refuse to even look a little closer.
One of my fav research sites: NaturalMedicineFacts.info



Pyewacket said:


> Plus the idea that certain things can't exist because they are supposedly "rare" - like coconut allergies.
> 
> Part of the perception of "coconut allergy" being rare is based on the fact that most of us were never exposed to coconut outside of the odd piece of candy left in the bottom of the box until it goes stale.  Now we are exposed to it EVERY SINGLE DAY in everything from toilet paper to hand soap.  OF COURSE allergic reactions to it are going to be more common than they used to be, and that should be taken in to account.  But it isn't.  Sometimes doctors are no more rational than faith healers, and with much less excuse.



I agree 100%


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 9, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> BTW I have been reading your thread about non-slimey olive oil (castile) soap and I have questions but I'll post them over there when (if) I get my thoughts straightened out.


The best place to post questions about recipes is the *RECIPE FEEDBACK* forum. Include the link to ZNSC (Zany's No Slime Castile). I'm not on SMF all that often. Many members have tried it and can answer any questions you may have. You'll get answers more quickly that way. 


Pyewacket said:


> Do you have a thread about your liquid soap process?


Faith at Alaiyna B's Blogspot has a tutorial for Beginner's LS and other general information, plus Tips & Tricks that will give you a good foundation for liquid soap. She was a long-time member of the Liquid Soap Making Yahoo Group (now defunct) where I was a contributing member since 2004. There's a lot to learn so I recommend you start there.  Here's a link:

*http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/2014/07/basic-beginner-liquid-soap-and.html*



> Zany wrote: Oh my. On top of everything else, I see you're dyslexic! Haha.





> Not actually, that's just me being my usual brand of weird.  I prefer to be grateful to someone who can appreciate my gratitude and my dogs ALWAYS appreciated it (even if they never understood it LOL!)


I know. I was just teasin' ya.  It was pretty funny!


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## Kcryss (Jul 10, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> So I went and looked for more info on arappu and FINALLY FOUND a recipe for Indian hair wash I can (mostly) follow.



Great info! Thanks for sharing! I'm going to give it a try!


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## Pyewacket (Jul 10, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> Great info! Thanks for sharing! I'm going to give it a try!



I know this thread has wandered rather farther afield than was perhaps preferred on a forum about soapmaking and ultimately has perhaps ended up being in the wrong forum (given we've ended up with a fairly in-depth discussion of Indian hair care rather than "liquid soap" per se) but ...

I'M GLAD.  If I hadn't been hunting more info on arappu to explain it better on this thread, I would never have found that post.  If I hadn't found that post, I'd still be working blind here.  I would undoubtedly have gotten along well enough - I have been "getting along well enough" with my use of herbal conditioners after all (and I still really like my amal/hibiscus/and-sometimes-fenugreek rinse and I'll still do that from time to time).  I will probably even modify that recipe as time passes - in fact I already have.  I don't have the GREEN gram on hand (not ground anyway, and my grinder is packed somewhere while I finish reno-ing the kitchen) so I left that out.  Given my grinder is packed and I don't know where my ground fenugreek is, I've left that out as well - but I do have whole fenugreek and I'll make a tea/gel with that. Since I'm following my own advice about using curry leaf to make a tea rather than drying them out and then powdering them, I'll just throw the fenugreek seeds in with that.  I DO have extra ingredients that I added, which is 1 part bhringraj powder and 1 part aloe vera powder.

But having a place to start means way less stumbling around on my part.  And I feel "safer" working from a known template.

Anyone who wants to try a rinse/tea:  I make my herbal hair rinses by tying the powder up in a packet made of a coffee filter, I close up the top with heat resistant silicone bands meant for cooking tasks.  If I had some 100% cotton twine on hand, I would tie them up with that and then I could just toss the whole packet when I'm done with them but taking the bands off before tossing the rest isn't that much of a hassle. I put about 2 T of any herbal powder into each packet - you need to leave room for the powdered herbs to expand as they cook.

I make my teas in a cheap coffee maker I got during Black Friday for $10.  I like this method because it is guaranteed never to get too hot for the herbs I use (you can't overcook them, not really) and it has an autoshutoff after 2 hours.  So I can't light the house on fire by forgetting I've got the stuff cooking.  It also reduces evaporation because it operates at a low temp.

I put the packets of whatever herbs I am using in the carafe, not the basket where you would normally put the coffee, and fill with water as usual.  I will let it cook this hair wash until it shuts off.

When making fenugreek gel I prefer to let the solution cook for 6 to 8 hours - I just poke the warmer back on every time it shuts off.  I get GREAT gelling this way from a small amount of fenugreek seed - 1 to 2 T in 3 to 4c of water (remember "cups" in a coffee maker are only about 5 oz, I mean REAL cups not "coffee maker" cups).

I have also been cooking my amla/hibiscus rinse for 6 to 8 hours.  Doing this extracts more "goodness" from the herbs.  You get a stronger solution.  I do this partly to make up for the low temp of the warmer on a coffee pot (usually runs between 120F to 140F).

If you are doing your cook on a stove, you will be cooking it at a bare simmer (which at sea level would run roughly 200F, a full simmer at sea level is at roughly 209F).  Then you don't have to cook as long as the lower temps.  Start at 30 mins if you're doing the simmer-on-the-stovetop thing and see how it is working for you.

Also I live at altitude so ... boiling point is about 201F and a fraction here.  Which actually means even at a full rolling boil (by looking) I am at a bare simmer (by temp).

Its just easier for me to toss it in the coffee pot and let it do its thing without my intervention. 

So there you go, quickest on the stove, easiest (for me anyway) in a coffee maker with an autoshutoff or timer.  Could also use a crockpot or InstantPot (NOT under pressure, in case something foams under pressure you don’t want to end up with hair wash splattered all over the walls because something foamed and clogged up the works).

The first time I made an amla/hibiscus rinse I threw the powders in there loose and then spent mind-numbing time filtering the finely ground powders out through a cheap cotton "flour sack" cloth towel.  Then I had to strain again through a coffee filter to get the very fine remaining powder out so it wouldn’t clog up my 360 sprayer.

And then there's the fenugreek gel of my first attempt. Let's just say gels don't filter well.  Not even if heated up.  So learn from my experience and just go with the disposable packet method, LOL!

If you are using whole ingredients (eg NOT powdered, everything I have except the fenugreek is a very fine powder) then straining is not such a hassle, except for anything that gels up, such as flaxseed or methi/fenugreek.  If it has a thickening effect you will likely be happier to tie it up in a disposable packet even if it isn't a powder.  Or at least *I* would!  

Any herbal tea/rinse you make is obviously preservative free - it will only last a week or two at room temp.  I refrigerate or freeze the majority of a batch of herbal tea/rinse and just keep out what I need for the next week or so.  I haven't tried freezing fenugreek gel yet, but everything else freezes just fine.

Once a month I run a bleach solution through my 360 sprayer.  I rinse it well between fillings. I use the smallest one Sally Beauty carries so I'm not tempted to fill up a large one and have it go bad on me before I use it up.  For conditioning rinses, I wash my hair in the shower, then apply the conditioning rinse with the 360 sprayer.  Let that sit on your hair for up to 15 minutes, depends on the specific rinse and your specific hair.  Rinse with plain water, detangle well, you're good to go.  You can use a commercial product to detangle, I will be using an herbally-based gel (currently fenugreek gel though I want to try a flax seed gel soon) for this step going forward due to my allergies.

For a wash, I thicken the tea with fenugreek.  To apply, I have a dye applicator bottles with the fingers that you squirt the stuff out of. It looks sort of like a comb on top of a squeeze bottle.  Gives me a little better control when washing.  It isn't going to be like washing with regular commercial type shampoo.  It won't always foam much or sometimes it won't foam AT ALL.  But it still cleans your hair if you work it through.

From what I've recently read about clay masques for your hair, it's probably pretty much like applying that.  Except the fenugreek gel tends to get kind of melty in your hands so I prefer to use the dye applicator. Squirt it into my hair and then work it through.  Applying the paste style wash instead of the tea form would also be a lot like the clay, but you won't really need the dye applicator unless maybe you've thinned it WAY down. I do use a shower brush (the types with the silicone fingers) to help scrub my scalp.

The recipe I posted about above has a whole lot of conditioners right in it, so I'm not sure yet whether or not I will need a separate conditioning step.  I'm pretty sure detangling will still be necessary, so some fenugreek gel in my dye applicator will probably still come in handy. No commercial "one step" product I have ever used was noticeably conditioning AT ALL, but ... the herbal regimens are a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

I've got my first batch of (slightly modified) hair wash powder mixed up here and I'll be trying it out both as a scalp scrub and as a tea later today, so will hopefully report back tomorrow on my results.  First I need to make up 2 batches of tea, one for the hair wash and a separate detangling concoction in case the hair wash isn't conditioning/detangling enough on its own.

And after I take a nap, I'll try to learn more about how to make castile soap that doesn't take a year before you can use it, LOL!


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## Susie (Jul 10, 2020)

There is no need to use "leaf" lard for soap.  Unlike pie crusts, soap does not care if the fat came from under the skin or from around the kidneys.  So, commercial lard (Armour, Snow Cap, etc) is fine for soap. It does have BHT and BHA added as a preservative, which you would need to research the safety of for your allergies.  

As to the tests you had 15 years ago, there have been lots of improvements and changes in allergy testing since then.  They also have tremendously better methods to de-sensitize than they did long ago.  So, it might be worth your while to find a new doctor that has the new information.  A coconut allergy is life changing, as you well know.


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## Lyelac (Jul 10, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> In the soap calculator, it says "cleansing" has to do with how well a soap DISSOLVES.  Not sure why it's not called "solubility" then but ... anyway ...
> 
> What does this mean for liquid soaps?  And what does it mean for something like a pure castile that will have 0 for "cleansing"?


Like everyone else before me said, a soap recipe with “0” for cleansing works well, but it won’t strip your skin. 

Sorry to hear about your allergies! I actually formulated a bastille soap specifically for people with your exact sensitivities, so there are no nuts, coconut, wheat/gluten, milk, or glycerin other than the natural byproduct from the soap making process itself. I can send you some if you like, just so you can be clean. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to have that specific allergy.

If you don’t have a sensitivity to the following oils, they may help: sunflower oil, avocado oil, grapeseed oil. I want to say you can also use corn oil, but I’m not sure as I’ve never used it, so I don’t know how it will turn out. I just know it’s inexpensive and readily available just about every where. You can add a little bit of sodium lactate to help firm up the bars. Hope this helps!


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## Pyewacket (Jul 11, 2020)

Susie said:


> *There is no need to use "leaf" lard for soap.*  Unlike pie crusts, soap does not care if the fat came from under the skin or from around the kidneys.  So, commercial lard (Armour, Snow Cap, etc) is fine for soap. It does have BHT and BHA added as a preservative, which you would need to research the safety of for your allergies.
> 
> As to the tests you had 15 years ago, there have been lots of improvements and changes in allergy testing since then.  They also have tremendously better methods to de-sensitize than they did long ago.  So, it might be worth your while to find a new doctor that has the new information.  A coconut allergy is life changing, as you well know.



Yeah, I understand that, that was just me being didactic.  It's terminology.  Sort of like peope objecting to a soap that isn't 100% olive oil being called "castile", and other people objecting even to a 100% olive oil soap being called "castile" if it doesn't conform to a specific process.  I'm a baker.  I've got terminology too, LOL!


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## Pyewacket (Jul 11, 2020)

Lyelac said:


> Like everyone else before me said, a soap recipe with “0” for cleansing works well, but it won’t strip your skin.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your allergies! I actually formulated a bastille soap specifically for people with your exact sensitivities, so there are no nuts, coconut, wheat/gluten, milk, or glycerin other than the natural byproduct from the soap making process itself. I can send you some if you like, just so you can be clean. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to have that specific allergy.
> 
> If you don’t have a sensitivity to the following oils, they may help: sunflower oil, avocado oil, grapeseed oil. I want to say you can also use corn oil, but I’m not sure as I’ve never used it, so I don’t know how it will turn out. I just know it’s inexpensive and readily available just about every where. You can add a little bit of sodium lactate to help firm up the bars. Hope this helps!



To my knowledge my only allergies are coconut, babassu, and probably palm if the goat milk soap I bought that gave me hives in a tender place was honestly labeled (it was supposed to be made only of goat's milk and two palm derivatives).  I've got various bug allergies and the fairy normal allergies to poison ivy/oak/sumac (and raw mango no matter HOW much I love it) but those are the only soap-making things to which I have known allergies.

So all those oils are fine.  I would pass on the corn oil because apparently it has a really short shelf life in soap.  I can get grapeseed oil pretty affordably.  I can get avacado and sunflower oil but they're more expensive, and I can get olive oil fairly affordably as well.

I just don't know that any of those bring anything to the table more than I would get from a 100% olive oil soap, except maybe a faster cure?  But there is also Zany's non-slimy castile soap to look at that apparently cures a lot faster, and someone else seems to have been able to turn his castile soap bars into liquid soap without having to wait for a full cure.  And I have a castile soap recipe that states a 6 week cure - but it really looks like a pretty bog standard recipe.  I could be wrong about that given my total novice status.  I need to post it on recipes and see if there's actually something special about it.

Basically I'm willing to go for anything I can make myself from locally available ingredients to which I am not allergic, LOL!  But I am not knowledgeable enough to make up my own recipe for something that isn't the norm, and the norm these days is lots of coconut and palm products.  I get castile soap, its just the long cure time that concerns me. And I'm looking up "sodium lactate".

I've got to the point where I'm confusing myself, I've actually read TOO MUCH the past few days.  LOL!


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## Susie (Jul 11, 2020)

Pyewacket said:


> Yeah, I understand that, that was just me being didactic.  It's terminology.  Sort of like peope objecting to a soap that isn't 100% olive oil being called "castile", and other people objecting even to a 100% olive oil soap being called "castile" if it doesn't conform to a specific process.  I'm a baker.  I've got terminology too, LOL!



Thank you for the warning.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 11, 2020)

NOTE ABOUT CURRY LEAF TEA

Unlike everything I else I "cook up" for my hair, this is the one thing I can't stick in the coffee pot and let cook for hours.

Last night I was cooking a batch up late at night, it was ready after about 30 minutes (starting from cold water, count on only about 15 mins if you're doing it stovetop and don't bring it above a bare simmer).  I meant to get up and take it off the heat.  Instead I fell asleep.  Flipped the coffee pot on to warm it up this morning without really thinking about it and shortly was met by the most awful dead boiled spinach smell ever.

It had continued to cook after I fell asleep and overcooked.  The autoshutoff is at 2 hours and it was done at 30 mins, LOL!  The same volatile elements that don't stick if you dry it will get cooked out if you overcook the tea.

Just FYI for anyone interested in trying it.


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## Pyewacket (Jul 11, 2020)

Susie said:


> Thank you for the warning.



It certainly wasn't intended as a warning.  More of a joke.


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