# Iowa Nice.



## DeeAnna (Feb 17, 2016)

Sometimes I really wish I could say "no". 

A guy called up today. Lives about 2 hours away. Wants to visit my shop to learn All There Is about Sleigh Bells (that's what I work on for a living). Wants to pick my brain about their history, see how I put them on leather, learn all the secrets about how we clean and polish the bells, and so on. 

In other words, he's madly in love with sleigh bells, assumes I'm just as mad about them as he is, and thinks I will be perfectly willing to spend several hours of unpaid time entertaining him and his wife on the subject. He's not the first one to assume this, nor will he be the last, but he is as unwilling to take a hint on the subject of "NO" as I've ever encountered.

I was blunter than I normally am about the reasons why I don't care to deal with casual shop visitors who Just Want to Visit, but he blithely ignored all my reasons and warnings. The only thing that MIGHT have put a stop to all this was me saying a plain 'n simple NO, Do Not Visit.

And of course my Iowa Nice training kicks in when I finally face up to facts -- I have to pick one of two options -- either say NO or cave. 

I caved. 

I have no one to blame but myself. I will resentfully spend several hours tomorrow playing nice to a total stranger who just thinks it's the most nifty thing in the world to wander my sleigh bell "disneyland." 

I'm about ready to interview for that process engineer spot at the local plastics factory. No one thinks its nifty to learn what an engineer does. When I worked for corporate engineering America some years ago, I was occasionally trotted out as an example of a tame female engineer, but otherwise I was expected to just do my job, not entertain.

Venting here. Not looking for sympathy. Another few swift kicks in the pants might help learn me this lesson, so you have my invitation to drive the lesson home! :think:


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 17, 2016)

Ugh. Do you have his contact info? Honestly, I'd give him a book recommendation and tell him, "Sorry I can't visit today, something came up!" 

I sorta feel sorry for his wife. I mean, he's going to bother you for a few hours. This is her life. 

Is your shop a store where customers come and buy sleigh bells, or is it where you manufacture stuff? I ask b/c my Dad makes labels and he calls his place "the shop".


----------



## BusyHands (Feb 17, 2016)

I can't drive the lesson home... I'm the same way. I just dealt with something similar. Someone being pushy & me telling them why I would prefer not to do something and they kept asking me every other day about the same thing. A good friend told me that people of a certain thought pattern take the reasons as open-ended & won't stop until I say No, I'm not doing that. Some people do not get the hints & have no boundaries.


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 17, 2016)

This is actually something my mom has been recently learning - how to hear and accept the "soft no." Now, this is in regards to her doing something for somebody else. So if she invited you someplace and you said, "I've got plans, but thanks," she accepts it. But if she wants to do something for you - for example she's been helping some friends who moved away to clear out their house in our area - she doesn't hear the "soft no" as a no. 

So she says, "Hey, want me to come over and help you clear out your garage?" 
Them: "Oh, we're just too busy today."
Her: "Okay, how about tomorrow?"
and on and on. 

If you read the forum "Etiquette Hell" they talk about this a lot. One technique is to say a cheerful, "No thanks!" b/c "No" seems too harsh, but when you start offering excuses then that's just an obstacle to be overcome. "No thanks!" leaves no room for discussion.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 17, 2016)

"No, thanks."

I gotta practice that. Yep, I'm writing that 100 times on my proverbial black board as penance. 

I appreciate learning good strategies that can let me still keep (most of) my Iowa Nice and yet not get walked on. And thank you for listening to my vent and more importantly for helping me put this in perspective.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 17, 2016)

I live in a country where people assume that you mean what you say.  It's hard for an Englishman.

"Well, we'll see what we can do" to me means "Not a snowballs chance in hell, old boy" but over here it seems to imply at least a modicum of hope.  It's hard getting the head around actually being able to say no and a) the other person not taking offense or b) it not actually mattering one tidy jot if they take offense or not!

As much as your Starfleet Shipyard Land niceness goes, you and yours are the top priority.  If babysitting some jingle-freak is going to take time from what you should be doing, will his offense actually make any real difference to your life?  (Spoiler, the answer is "no").  The other option is to quote him your hourly rate.....................

I am getting really good at this, as The Admirable Lady is terrible at letting other people's "needs" impact on us and I won't stand for it.  If there is any non-essential aspect that negatively impacts the family, especially The Little Efficacious Gentleman, it is most certainly a "nice to have" up against a "must have" - and the "must have" items win.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 17, 2016)

"..."Well, we'll see what we can do" to me means "Not a snowballs chance in hell, old boy"..."

This kind of "soft no" (nice phrase, Dixie!) is pretty common and is (usually) well understood by people like me who grow up in the midwestern United States, but the norms of how people communicate vary a lot even within the USA. I've had to learn to adjust how I say things to others and how I interpret what they say to me, especially when I'm talking to people from some regions outside the Midwest. Some folks from other parts of the US don't realize how overbearing and rude they can sound to a native midwesterner! I've realized the patterns of how these people communicate are strongly related to where they grew up -- that's just how everyone talks and they really don't mean to be rude. I imagine I sound overly soft spoken to them in return.


----------



## Steve85569 (Feb 17, 2016)

I have a friend that on occasion reminds me that " No is a complete sentence".

If YOU think I need to explain the sentence that is your problem not mine.

I have no problem being rather blunt. Then again I did make my living in heavy construction...


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 17, 2016)

DeeAnna, I think the South is very similar in that way. To just say "No" feels terribly mean and rude to me, but I can do a "No, but thank you!" (For me it is key to make it upbeat and cheerful sounding." But OTOH, I find myself doing the same thing as my mom. One of my co-workers and I talk about cooking and food, and I suggest that we should take turns bringing lunch so we can try new things, for example I could bring something for us both one day a week, and she could be something. She "soft no-ed" me and I had to really hold myself back coming up with solutions to the polite objections she was giving me.

I think there are a lot of plusses to a culture where people work to soften their words to each other, but a huge negative is that rude, pushy people often "win" b/c they just push and push and it feels rude to say "no" over and over.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 17, 2016)

Dixie -- I most definitely did not have the typical Southerner in mind when I made my earlier comments!!!!  Your lesson about "no, thank you!" is going to be really useful to me. It translates perfectly into Midwesterner-speak. The South's deeply meaningful "Bless your heart!" does not translate as nicely, although sometimes I wish it did. 

Steve -- "No is a complete sentence" has also been written on my black board today along with with Dixie's contribution. Great way to make a good point. 

I do think one's occupation makes a difference in how easy it is to say "no." In my former life as an engineer, keeping the public happy was not a job requirement and on top of that everyone knows engineers are a little weird and socially inept, right? Nowadays, when the phone rings, I leap into "consumer service" mode with the goal of making people feel at ease and answering their questions, so they will hopefully place an order. I have refused to serve people, but only very, very rarely. I usually feel miserable about the experience, even if I know it's the right decision in the long run. I should have said "no" today, for example, but I wasn't prepared to feel miserable for a little bit now in order to avoid a lot more misery tomorrow.


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 17, 2016)

Maybe he will buy 100 sleigh bells.

BTW, Effy, the phrase "jingle-freak" makes me laugh.

ETA: Here in the South, somebody would oh-so-sweetly murmur, "Bless your heart" and that would cue the wife to hurry her husband along.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 17, 2016)

Oh, gosh, that's the phrase I was really thinking of -- "bless your heart!" Gonna edit my previous post.

My unwanted visitor is definitely a jingle freak. I'm dingy for agreeing to put up with him.


----------



## galaxyMLP (Feb 17, 2016)

I know what you mean with saying no. People have often said I have a hard time saying no in work/life. I lived in south Florida until I went to college. As I move farther north in Florida, I have been encountering more of the southern type of communication. Most people I run into are very nice but I'm also learning "how to take a hint" since people were MUCH more blunt in south Florida. 

Personally, I like to say "oh, that's alright, thanks for your interest but I don't think I can do that". Or "that sounds lovely but I'm not sure I can do that now". I'm long winded in my No's. In south Florida it's common to say "Yeah, no." But I don't hear that around here. People are much less blunt and it takes a lot more to shut down overzealous people because of that!


----------



## dibbles (Feb 17, 2016)

I'm a midwesterner too, DeeAnna, and just like you I have a difficult time saying no. If I have to say no more than once, I start to feel like a terrible person and nearly always give in. No one to blame but myself for whatever it is I end up doing that I really didn't want to do. I haven't learned yet that saying no doesn't require a reason for 'why not'. So, in that light, could you possibly dissuade future requests from the jingle freaks by saying they can't visit your shop/work space because of insurance liability restrictions? (You would if you could, but big bad insurance company won't allow it.)


----------



## IrishLass (Feb 17, 2016)

This is a most wonderful thread. Taking notes......

Don't mind me- continue on with the discussion and tips. :mrgreen:  

IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 17, 2016)

"...they can't visit your shop/work space because of insurance liability restrictions..."

My DH suggests much the same thing. This would certainly work to keep the Jingle Freaks (thanks, Gent!) out of my hair, but it seems rather dishonest. I'm really bad at fibbing and outright lying -- I'm sure the word "LIAR" is tattooed across my forehead when I do. I'd rather find a way to simply say "No thanks!" and stick to it without having to explain or apologize. 

I maintain my business website myself, and I have set myself the task of writing a brief policy about Jingle Fre ... uh, I mean casual visitors! ... to add to my website. Not sure how I'm going to word it -- maybe I'll end up using your insurance reason, Dibbles -- but whatever I come up with will be better than what I'm doing now.


----------



## Steve85569 (Feb 17, 2016)

"In my former life as an engineer, keeping the public happy was not a job  requirement and on top of that everyone knows engineers are a little  weird and socially inept, right?"

That got a good chuckle out of me! My background is civil / horizontal construction ( think roads and pipes) so yeah. And everybody I worked with over the years thought those on the engineering side were, well, a bit "different". I got used to it. Suppose that's what ya may need to do here too maybe.

JMHO,
Steve


----------



## BrewerGeorge (Feb 17, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> .... I'm really bad at fibbing and outright lying -- I'm sure the word "LIAR" is tattooed across my forehead when I do. I'd rather find a way to simply say "No thanks!" and stick to it without having to explain or apologize. ...


LOL, when the girls were young (I have four) we used to tell them that when they lied they got a blue dot on their foreheads.  Works until six or seven at least, and when they grow out of it, the older girls play along with the younger.


----------



## Susie (Feb 17, 2016)

DeeAnna, when I got a divorce, I moved back to my hometown and HAD to learn to say no.  All of my parents friends wanted to "introduce me to someone".  I got really good at saying no really fast.  My favorite way to say it now is with a huge smile and saying, "No thanks, busy that day!",  and walking off.  Works wonderfully in all situations.  No matter what the question is, it works.  The best part is walking off (or hanging up the phone) prevents persistent attempts at asking again.


----------



## CaraBou (Feb 17, 2016)

I grew up in a big family on the northern Great Plains, and learned quickly to say what I meant. Not rude, just direct enough to make it clear.  It is a great way to communicate when everyone "speaks the same language" -- no one gets hurt and your point is taken.  Didn't take long after moving away to figure out that approach doesn't work well in other regions or in public service.  

I must say, this thread is in the right place at the right time.  I've been trying to say no to something for two weeks and it is still nipping my heels (and on my brain).  It is time for some good old fashioned, confident, clear, communication.  Hope I don't get fired! :twisted:

Good luck to you DeeAnna.  The other (learned) side of my style tells me these things will always work out and in the end, and your strengths will shine.


----------



## LittleCrazyWolf (Feb 18, 2016)

I feel for you DeeAnna because I have always had a hard time saying no and then being miserable about it later. I've gotten much better about standing up for myself thanks to my stepmom and husband. Neither of them ever feels bad about saying no although they are polite about it (they get much less polite if they have to say no more than once). Neither of them gives a soft no, they just say "no" or "no thank you" and move on with the conversation.

I like the idea of coming up with a fee for touring your shop. That way you are still getting paid for your time if the Jingle Freaks won't accept (or refuse to hear) your soft no.


----------



## lenarenee (Feb 18, 2016)

Hmm.  Now I'm wondering what I do when given a soft no - catch on or miss it. Going to be interesting to observe myself.

DeeAnna, I'm a native Midwesterner, also shy and introverted by nature.  As I've matured over the decades have an easier time with straight forward no's because I learn I punish myself by not being honest. 

In turn, I very much appreciate when someone clearly but respectfully tells me no. I need people to be straight with me so I don't have to guess/worry/wonder if I'm treading on their toes.

I bet this sleigh bell enthusiast would be mortified to know how unwanted and intrusive his visit will be for you.  

 In the future, if you're armed with a rehearsed and scripted "no" response, you'll be doing the next jingle bell frea...uh...enthusiast a big favor. No one wants to be "unwanted" in a social situation. 

Respectful honesty protects others' feelings. _And _your own.  Big compassionate hug for you, and better luck next time.

Btw, no disrespect intended with the "freak" reference...I love sleigh bells and have a wonderful sentimental Christmas tradition I passed on to my boys if you'd ever like to hear it.


----------



## Becky_Gadmer (Feb 18, 2016)

You could just call him and say something to the effect of "I am so sorry, but something has come up and I am going to have to cancel your tour. I will give you a call when my schedule can accommodate your request." 

That will leave it open ended with the ball in your court, in a very polite way  If he is really pushy and keeps calling back, you can "check your schedule" for openings...if you don't have any, then you don't have any.


----------



## regansoap (Feb 18, 2016)

Deeanna there are givers and takers in this world.  JUST SAY NO - I HAVE THE SAME THING people who just want a free holiday at my expense - stand your ground and says it's simply not possible.


----------



## navigator9 (Feb 18, 2016)

When my aunt retired and moved to Florida, she began getting lots of solicitation calls. Lots of them were for things like tree trimming, roofing, house washing, lawn care, etc. I'm sure there is no shortage of people willing to take advantage of seniors, and it's hard to distinguish between the good guys and the bad ones. My aunt would get involved in long conversations and end up with these people showing up on her doorstep, and she would get flustered and not know what to do. So on a trip to visit her, I said, "I'll tell you exactly what to say, to get rid of them. When they tell you what they're selling, say..."Thanks, but I'm not interested." And then hang up. She was worried about not being polite, so by saying "thanks", she could still be polite, and yet refuse. So I watched her take one of these calls. She said "Thanks, but I'm not interested." But then she continued the conversation. I said, "But no, you have to hang up as soon as you say you're not interested. Don't hang on long enough for them to get their hooks into you!" It took her quite a while, but eventually she did get the hang of it. But it's very difficult, when we are raised to "be nice", to do something that goes against the grain. It's good to be the kind of person that's concerned about other people's feeling, but we need to remember that our feelings count too. That being said, I find it hard to be "mean" on the phone, too, so I just screen all of my calls and don't deal with solicitors at all. What a weenie! :lolno:


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 18, 2016)

I have read each and every one of your posts to this thread. Thank you for the sound advice, good ideas, and a few friendly kicks to my posterior! 

I would love to call "Mr. J. F." and tell him the date is canceled, but I got so flustered and annoyed during the call yesterday that I did not think to get his number.

After sleeping on it, I think I will change my website policy to charge for shop tours and practice how to say this in a phone call. I could give tours to utter strangers with a good attitude if I felt the interaction was a two way street that benefited everyone. I know in a certain sense that seems crass, but if I'm not working on a business related task, I'm not making money. On top of that, my experience with past visits has shown they often last 2-3 hours and I'm exhausted by the end. (I not only have a problem saying "no", I also have a problem ending these visits in a timely way.) Getting payment for X amount of time would set a boundary on that.

Unfortunately today is something I'm going to have to live through as agreed upon, however reluctantly I agreed. I am sure I will live through this. I am also sure I will do tolerably well. Ten years of teaching adults in community college are handy sometimes. I hope the visitors are tolerably pleasant, laid back, and not overly nosy -- that will make it easier for me. DH has encouraged me to think of specific reasons to draw the visit to an end at a reasonable hour, such as meeting him in town for lunch or taking packages to the post office. That is a good strategy too.

Again, my sincere thanks!


----------



## Stacy (Feb 18, 2016)

I have had great difficulty with this over the years (and am constantly working on).

I think having an answer prepared is going to be very helpful, I helps me from getting flustered when I do that.

The other thing I've learned is that people tend to believe that your time/products are worth exactly what they pay. I can't tell you how many time I've done websites or database solutions for people or charities (after a hearty 'oh yes please we really need that!') only to have them go unused because they can't be bothered learn to use it or to do something small that's require of them to set it up.

At least if you set a fee structure you're putting a value on your time (if only in your own mind). If you then choose not to charge people it is a true freebie!

On another note, because a few people have mentioned that they have similar issue. Someone who wont listen to what you're saying isn't respecting you or your time. Lots of people will  prey on your good will. If they are taking advantage of it, they are no longer deserving of it.

Here are some articles with useful techniques filled to links of other articles about the same

http://lifehacker.com/how-to-say-no-to-anyone-even-a-good-friend-1635291849

http://lifehacker.com/how-people-pleasers-can-learn-to-say-no-more-often-1524324151


----------



## Misschief (Feb 18, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> and practice how to say this in a phone call.



This. Do it in front of a mirror. Do it often. It helps to practice, out loud and in private. Repeatedly. Until it becomes familiar.

I've always been a very introverted person and saying no made me feel as if I was disappointing the person I was saying no to. Working in a job where people often have unrealistic timelines (but I NEED 5000 flyers by end of day today!... for the xyz show coming up next Saturday), I've had to learn to say, No, we can't do that. I'm getting pretty good at it now but it has taken a lot of practice.


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 18, 2016)

I like the idea of a shop tour with a fee. Set up some kind of tour - with a time limit. Maybe a 2 hour tour that also includes some kind of activity and/or souvenir. Charge $20 a person, maybe offer discounts for groups of 10?


----------



## TBandCW (Feb 18, 2016)

When we had our alpaca ranch there were lots of calls for farm visits.  Especially during the summer when grandparents had grandkids visiting and were looking for something to do.  We did what we had to do at the time and had them over, but winding down the ranch biz and starting our bath and candle biz we just said ranch was closed to visits.

With phone solicitors I am of the opinion that since I didn't ask them to call and interrupt my day, I don't need to be nice.  I'm not rude because I know they are just doing their job, but I say not interested and hang up. 

Don't let this situation bother you anymore,  just get it over with and let it be a lesson learned.


----------



## CaraBou (Feb 18, 2016)

In high school I had several jobs as a phone solicitor -- I called people from the phone book, from random lists, and from contact cards. Sometimes I had a name to ask for, sometimes I didn't.  I appreciated people who said "no" before hanging up because then it was very clear to cross them off the list (especially if you didn't know whether you had reached the right person).  To this day, I always say "no" or no thank you to unwanted callers before promptly hanging up.  But for the life of me, I can't get my husband to do that; he simply hangs up without saying a word. Then I laugh at him when they call him back a day or two later!


----------



## BlackDog (Feb 18, 2016)

Ugh, some people can be utterly obtuse!  I'm very familiar with your plight DeeAnna; my mother and sister are chronic sufferers of the inability to say "no". They wind up resentfully cussing while decorating someone's cake or cleaning up after one event or another.  

I myself do not suffer this affliction, but being a proud midwesterner (and schoolteacher), have mastered the art of the "soft no" that EG was referring to. My favorite: "Let me check my calendar and get back to you!" And then never call, lol. There's probably a reason I'm less popular than my mother and sister.


----------



## JayJay (Feb 18, 2016)

So Dee Anna-  how did it go? Were you able to keep it short and sweet? Did they buy $100 worth of jingle bells?


----------



## Seawolfe (Feb 18, 2016)

" I think you are over estimating my interest in this topic"

My latest favorite. I'm a horrible horrible person....


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 18, 2016)

Well the visit is over and I survived. Mr. J.F. and wife spent just over an hour in the shop. I'm sure they went away reasonably pleased and satisfied. 

When they decided they were done with me, they carefully packed up the bells they brought with them, said thank you very much, and left without the usual midwestern lingering "sideways" goodbye. And, nope, they had absolutely no interest in buying any bells or having me do any custom work for them. 

On the face of it, the visit went okay, but the gut-level reaction to the experience is that I got used. Politely used, but used. 

One thing that did go nicely as planned -- I had told them (truthfully) that I had to go to town to drop packages off at the post office and UPS depot, and I had to leave the shop no later than 4 p.m. to get that done. That set a nice deadline for wrapping things up -- worked great.

Thoughts to follow up on --

"People tend to believe that your time/products are worth exactly what they pay"
"No, but thank you!" and "No, busy tomorrow!"
"'No' is a complete sentence."
And from a horsey friend -- "Practice makes better."


----------



## Steve85569 (Feb 18, 2016)

dixiedragon said:


> I like the idea of a shop tour with a fee. Set up some kind of tour - with a time limit. Maybe a 2 hour tour that also includes some kind of activity and/or souvenir. Charge $20 a person, maybe offer discounts for groups of 10?



We had plants for making stuff. If you wanted some and we were not running the plant that day you got to pay a days wages for three people to run the plant plus the normal fees for materials made. Saturday was overtime and Sunday started out with a high enough fee that we always had it off.

If you come to Santa's Workshop you gotta pay the elves.:mrgreen:


----------



## navigator9 (Feb 19, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Well the visit is over and I survived. Mr. J.F. and wife spent just over an hour in the shop. I'm sure they went away reasonably pleased and satisfied.
> 
> When they decided they were done with me, they carefully packed up the bells they brought with them, said thank you very much, and left without the usual midwestern lingering "sideways" goodbye. And, nope, they had absolutely no interest in buying any bells or having me do any custom work for them.
> 
> ...




They bought _*nothing*_??? Now I would have felt obligated to buy at least something from you after all that! That takes big cajones. Brass ones.


----------



## LBussy (Feb 19, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> I'm about ready to interview for that process engineer spot at the local plastics factory. No one thinks its nifty to learn what an engineer does.


I do.  

I'd be more likely to play for a visit/tour of an engineering plant than for bells.  :mrgreen:


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2016)

"If you come to Santa's Workshop you gotta pay the elves...."

That's funny, Steve -- you have a great sense of humor! It perfectly sums up my feeling.

"...They bought nothing??? Now I would have felt obligated to buy at least something..."

I would have too if I were in their shoes. I'd say most people would, Navigator. Or at least say something hopeful like, "I'm going to keep your website store in mind when I do Christmas shopping." When we stop at a gas station to use the rest room, I buy a pop (soda) or something. That Iowa Nice thing again (insert where you live if you aren't an Iowan.)

"...I'd be more likely to play for a visit/tour of an engineering plant than for bells...."

You're a notable exception to the rule, but I already knew that, Lee! :mrgreen: 

One of the unexpected parts of my day job (and of soaping, come to think of it) is all the process engineering that it requires -- in other words, the art of troubleshooting and improving mechanical and chemical processes. A lot of this troubleshooting is everyday common sense and a simple willingness to tinker, but it's nice to have an engineering background to help with the more unusual problems.


----------



## navigator9 (Feb 19, 2016)

Maybe someone out there can help me with my problem. There is a religious group that goes door to door. I have tremendous respect for anyone dedicated enough to their faith that they would willingly knock on doors, knowing that they will probably have them slammed in their face. That takes guts. But. They will not take no for an answer. Admittedly, I did give this woman a very soft no. OK, it wasn't actually a no, it was more like I'm in the middle of something right now, but she has been back seven, no exaggeration, seven times. I'm ashamed to say that I have just not answered the door, because she is very pleasant, someone that I could see myself being friends with, but I know that if I do answer the door, there will be one of two outcomes, either I will cave, and end up being very frustrated with myself because I'm too wishy washy to say no firmly enough. Or I will have to get to the point where I am rude enough to close the door in her face. Either one of those will leave me feeling badly about myself. It's one thing to do it over the phone, or by email, but when the person is standing in front of you, it's quite another story. I have very strong feelings about my personal religious views. They are unconventional, but strong. It took me a long time to feel comfortable with my beliefs, and I'm happy discussing them with any of my friends, but knowing that someone has an agenda to sway me over to their side, is not a conversation I want to have. I guess I'm looking for some short but sweet prepared answer that will get my point across, even though I know that it will involve closing the door in her face at some point, because she wants to continue the conversation at any cost. I took my girlfriend out to lunch yesterday, and when I got home, there was a note on my door. She had been there again. Any help you can offer would be appreciated. Sorry if I hijacked your thread, but the timing was so perfect, considering that she showed up again yesterday.


----------



## Susie (Feb 19, 2016)

You need to tell her to go away and NOT COME BACK.  Period.  She is now convinced that you are potential convert that just needs "one more visit".  They have a whole church praying for you to see the light.  You need to be firm and not give her another minute.  If you don't, you will get more and more of their church members working on you.


----------



## LBussy (Feb 19, 2016)

navigator9 said:


> I have very strong feelings about my personal religious views. They are unconventional, but strong. It took me a long time to feel comfortable with my beliefs, and I'm happy discussing them with any of my friends, but knowing that someone has an agenda to sway me over to their side, is not a conversation I want to have.


This.

Print that along with:  "I appreciate that your belief system includes a desire/belief/need to proselytise, however I am not interested in discussing your beliefs or my own."   Give it to the person when they show up next time, smile and close the door.


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 19, 2016)

@ Navigator - try calling the church and asking firmly to be taken off their visiting list. Also get a "no soliciting" sign. I think that if there is a sign, then knocking on your door for religious or sales purposes becomes trespassing. 

I have a lot of stabby feelings on this topic. I feel very strongly that it is extremely rude, obnoxious and arrogant to knock on somebody's door, harass them in their own home to tell them they're living their life wrong.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2016)

Ah, but the topic is "I wish I could say 'no'" and your question, Navigator, is super on-target! 

I get a yearly visit from the Seventh Day Adventist ladies. Since I work from the converted garage in my home, I'm nearly always around when they come, unfortunately. 

Thankfully, saying "no" to the Adventist ladies is something I can actually do, but it only works because I've practiced it over the years and I keep my words short but polite. I cannot let myself get tangled up with excuses and apologies -- that's the road to "caving" for me! Nor can I be rude -- that takes the luster off my happiness just as much as caving.

I do not allow the caller into the shop, which gives the person an excuse to settle in for awhile. I listen to the introduction for a few sentences, and then say --

"Thanks for stopping by. I will not discuss my religious beliefs with anyone. Have a good day!"

Deliver with a smile and a friendly wave. Do not say anything more even if the person asks a question -- that's a real danger zone!!! Instead, turn around gently and go back indoors. Wave again and smile. Close door.


----------



## Stacy (Feb 19, 2016)

navigator9 this is exactly the kind of thing that I was talking about in my post. You want to be polite (and I totally get that), but polite does not mean that you have to give someone what they want.

If you use any of the answers in this topic and she decides not to respect your position than she is NOT being polite no matter how 'nice' she is. Are you really obligated to be polite when someone is determined to walk all over you?

I like DeeAnna's answer but I would probably add something to it.  "Thanks for stopping by. I do not discuss my religious beliefs with anyone. *Please don't visit again.* Have a good day!"

It isn't rude, it's honest. If you want to look at it a different way, you're helping her not waste her time as you are not potential convert material


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 19, 2016)

LBussy said:


> This.
> 
> Print that along with: "I appreciate that your belief system includes a desire/belief/need to proselytise, however I am not interested in discussing your beliefs or my own." Give it to the person when they show up next time, smile and close the door.


 
This is what Etiquette Hell would call JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain. And it's usually not a good idea. It doesn't matter if you converted to the Church of Elvis two days ago. You don't owe these people an explanation of your religious beliefs and you don't owe them an explanation of WHY you don't owe them an explanation. Also, you're just opening the door for them to debate with you. "No" is still a complete sentence. 

Although I'm also fond of, "I have 6 dogs and I'm a lifetime member of the NRA." (technically my mom is, but close enough.)
@ Deanna - "politely used" is a polite way of putting it! I doubt they thought of it that way - I'm sure he sees it as an enjoyable conversation between sleigh bell enthusiasts (aka jingle freaks). I can't believe he didn't buy anything!


----------



## LittleCrazyWolf (Feb 19, 2016)

I like the idea of handing the person a note BUT then you will still have to open the door and close it on her. I think calling the church and telling them to take you off the list would be the best option. But please understand that she is not being nice by stressing you out and making you feel uncomfortable. She knows what she is doing. She is counting on you to feel obligated to listen. She is trying to wear you down and that is not something that respectful people do to each other. 

I once came out of my garage and found a salesman standing in my driveway. I felt rude saying "no" outright and ended up subjecting myself to so much misery. He was really pushy but friendly enough that I felt obligated to stand there stressing myself out. He wouldn't leave until I finally said that it was my son's first day of Kindergarten and I needed to go wait for his bus. He called three times a week for over a month and I had to be very unpleasant to get them to stop calling.

Contrast that story to the time my husband came out of the garage and saw a stranger standing in our driveway close to our house. He grabbed an axe (yes, an axe) and in his booming voice yelled "CAN I HELP YOU?!" That dude turned white as a sheet and took off running. Our neighbor still teases us about it. In my hubby's defense, there had been some recent break-ins in our neighborhood and he thought the guy was trying to look in the window.


----------



## LittleCrazyWolf (Feb 19, 2016)

dixiedragon said:


> This is what Etiquette Hell would call JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain. And it's usually not a good idea. It doesn't matter if you converted to the Church of Elvis two days ago. You don't owe these people an explanation of your religious beliefs and you don't owe them an explanation of WHY you don't owe them an explanation. Also, you're just opening the door for them to debate with you. "No" is still a complete sentence.


 
I love this dixie, it is just truth. Everything you say while JADEing is just another point for the pushy person to use against you. As a child I hated when my parents answered with "because I said so" because there was no way to argue with them. As a parent I use "because I said so" when my son refuses to accept my reasonable explanation for things like; why he isn't allowed to use the couch as a trampoline, why I won't buy him yet another clock (he has seven), why I won't buy him a Roomba vacuum, why he can't give the cat a bath, etc...


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 19, 2016)

Ask them to mark your house a "do not call" or ask for their local registered location so that you can write there and ask them not to call, after which you will call the police as they would be trespassing, having no good reason to knock on your door


----------



## navigator9 (Feb 19, 2016)

I really appreciate all of your advice. I feel much better prepared to deal with her the next time I see her. I'm going to write down my spiel and memorize it, so I'll be ready, cause I'm sure she'll be back. It's just hard to overcome all of that Catholic schoolgirl upbringing!


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 19, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Well the visit is over and I survived. Mr. J.F. and wife spent just over an hour in the shop. I'm sure they went away reasonably pleased and satisfied.
> 
> When they decided they were done with me, they carefully packed up the bells they brought with them, said thank you very much, and left without the usual midwestern lingering "sideways" goodbye. And, nope, they had absolutely no interest in buying any bells or having me do any custom work for them.
> 
> On the face of it, the visit went okay, but the gut-level reaction to the experience is that I got used. Politely used, but used.


 
So, I'm curious. This guy brought his jingle bell collection to show you. What exactly did he want from you? To just show you his cool bells? Did he want you to identify them? Estimate their value? Give advice on their upkeep/repair? 

Are we actually talking about sleigh bells, or are you using that as a way to protect your privacy? If so, that's totally fine, you don't have to identify what your actual business is. I just want to know if it is REALLY bells.


----------



## kchaystack (Feb 19, 2016)

I had some people come to my door once.  

Me and my friends were playing a live action RP game - so many were dressed up like different fae creatures.  My friend Julian was in a kilt, poet shirt, army boots and had a pair of Sculpy horns spirit gummed to his head (he was a saytr).  He answered the door, thinking it was more players.  He smiled at them, (thank goodness he did not have his fang appliances on).  

They were speachless, and then quickly excused themselves.   Never saw them again.

Dee, maybe you need to get a fun costume to wear when people come for tours...  haha!


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2016)

It will be hard, Nav. as you already know. If you're like me, your heart will race and anxiety will jump up. Giving myself permission to say "no" and actually going through with it -- well, it seems like the world will end. But I keep reminding myself the scary time will only last a few minutes at best, compared with the misery of living through yet another "visit" from your church lady or my jingle freaks, however long those visits last, and then feeling crappy after the visit is done with. 

I keep reminding myself that a little bit of "present pain" to avoid a lot of future misery is the best way to go, but it's hard to do especially at first. Practice makes better!


dixiedragon said:


> ...Are we actually talking about sleigh bells, or are you using that as a way to protect your privacy?...



I have to laugh. Dixie, yes, I really truly "do" sleigh bells for a living -- 












And general leather work --











More: http://classicbells.com



dixiedragon said:


> ...So, I'm curious. This guy brought his jingle bell collection to show you. What exactly did he want from you? To just show you his cool bells? Did he want you to identify them? Estimate their value? Give advice on their upkeep/repair?...



Mr. J.F. and wife wanted me to identify their bells and get advice on how they should clean them. They wanted to learn how to fasten the bells back onto a leather strap with correct fasteners, so they wanted to know specifically what size of brass wire I use for these fasteners. They asked for details about how certain straps are made. They especially wanted to know about the equipment and supplies DH uses to clean and polish old bells. And they wanted to know my sources for unusual supplies such as pure wool felt and old fashioned oil cloth, both of which are used on some unusual types of sleigh bell straps. I gave them brief factual answers, but didn't go into detail.

I really think they both have gotten badly infected with the do-it-yourself bug since the Mister's retirement from farming. My opinion is they were wanting to pick my brain to shortcut the learning process of figuring out how to restore the sleigh bells they collect.


----------



## TBandCW (Feb 19, 2016)

Hmm....so they wanted to take advantage of all *your* research and *your* time spent learning the ins and outs of your trade?   

It's been hard and very awkward at times when talking to other soap/candle vendors, but I don't give out any of my sources.  I spend hrs researching best prices, etc.  I figure they can do the same!  I usually say when asked where I get my supplies, "whoever has the best deal at the time!"

By the way, you have beautiful products!


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 19, 2016)

I agree with TBandCW. VERY rude! I think it would be worth it for you to come up with some lessons and the rate you'd charge, so you can have that info ready for the next Jingle Freak. My aunt is a quilter, and she makes pretty good money teaching quilting and also helping people quilt on her giant machine. By giant, I mean this thing is as long as a car. You use it to sew together the top, the batting (the fluffy middle layer) and the bottom together. Most quilters don't have the giant machine, so they quilt the top (the part with all of the squares) and select a large piece of fabric for the back and then pay somebody with a big machine to do it for them. My aunt charged I think $30/hr for people to sew their quilts on her machine under her supervision.

BTW, if you ever want to teach, check out John Campbell Folk School. It's in North Carolina (so kind of far from you). They do offer leather working classes, but no bell classes! Not sure what kind of equipment you use, but they have lots of black smithing stuff.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2016)

Thanks, Kathy! You're right about their motives. Having been a college instructor for 10 years, I'm fairly willing to share what I know; it comes with the territory of being a teacher. But I feel most comfortable and effective if the learning experience is a give-and-take thing between me and whoever. Yesterday was not one of those times. That's why this thread has been helpful -- I'm working on how to set better boundaries and find good ways to say "no."

Dixie -- I am definitely setting up a fee structure for tours. I would enjoy teaching leather working even without sleigh bells in the mix.


----------



## Sagebrush (Feb 19, 2016)

Oh, boy. I feel like this topic is ever-present in my life. Sometimes I'm great at saying "no" and proud of myself and other times I feel gross and then ruminate on everything I did wrong and how the person hates me now for saying "no". 

I'm originally from Michigan, so I'm Michigan Nice plus indecisive. This does not make a good cocktail for saying "no" to things I don't want to do, because sometimes I'm not sure if I want to say "no" yet which makes me look like I actually want to say "yes"! I've lived in the Seattle area for about 14 years now and I've found that there are some people who communicate and operate like I do (because there are lots of transplants like myself), but the general vibe seems to be passive-aggressive. People don't generally mean what they say, so you really have to listen for the soft "no". 

I wait tables as my "real job", and the biggest issue that I have with my Midwestern Niceness is that I'm a pushover. The squeaky wheels get the grease (aka the bigger and/or better sections, get tables sat in their section more often, etc), but all the other employees hate them because they're mean and rude to get what they want. Saying "yes" to myself is not as simple as just saying a firm "no" and closing the door or hanging up the phone. And my manager is very passive-aggressive. Even if she had a problem with me it would never be brought up, it would just be reflected in something else. (I've been with the company for 8 years and worked directly under her for at least 6 of those years.)

So, I feel like a big part of learning to say "no" is directly related to sticking up for yourself and training yourself not to be a pushover so you don't get walked all over. 

Not directly related to the rest of my post, but my favorite excerpt from one of the articles that Stacy linked was this: 

"Saying 'no' is your battle shield for deflecting distractions, staying true to yourself, and sticking to the course. Every time you agree to do something you do not believe is right, or want to do, it beats you up mentally. I know firsthand. People like to see progress. To create. The creative process is handicapped when you are playing dodge ball with bull[poo] you wish you had never committed to. Trust your gut—your brain will thank you."


----------



## navigator9 (Feb 19, 2016)

kchaystack said:


> I had some people come to my door once.
> 
> Me and my friends were playing a live action RP game - so many were dressed up like different fae creatures.  My friend Julian was in a kilt, poet shirt, army boots and had a pair of Sculpy horns spirit gummed to his head (he was a saytr).  He answered the door, thinking it was more players.  He smiled at them, (thank goodness he did not have his fang appliances on).
> 
> ...



ROTFL.....Oh please send this guy to my house to answer the door!!! I can only imagine the reaction, it must have been priceless!!!!!!!!! Thanks for the belly laugh. 



DeeAnna said:


> It will be hard, Nav. as you already know. If you're like me, your heart will race and anxiety will jump up. Giving myself permission to say "no" and actually going through with it -- well, it seems like the world will end. But I keep reminding myself the scary time will only last a few minutes at best, compared with the misery of living through yet another "visit" from your church lady or my jingle freaks, however long those visits last, and then feeling crappy after the visit is done with.
> 
> I keep reminding myself that a little bit of "present pain" to avoid a lot of future misery is the best way to go, but it's hard to do especially at first. Practice makes better!



I know this is true. I know it. It's just the idea of hurting someone. Even if they don't care anything about hurting or annoying me, it's just that deliberate action that might hurt someone....that's a hard one to get past for me. 

"jingle freaks".....thanks, you made me spray coffee all over my keyboard!



DeeAnna said:


> I have to laugh. Dixie, yes, I really truly "do" sleigh bells for a living --
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And they wanted all that for FREE????? Like I said.......big cajones.  Big, brass cajones! And Dee, those bells are beautiful! I remember when I  was little, in our box of Christmas decorations, we had some bells like  that, and to this day, I can remember the sound....nothing like those  cheap little tinkly jingle bells. The sound of these bells would  reverberate in the air....just beautiful. I wish I knew what happened to  them. 



SageontheMountain said:


> Oh, boy. I feel like this topic is ever-present in my life. Sometimes I'm great at saying "no" and proud of myself and other times I feel gross and then ruminate on everything I did wrong and how the person hates me now for saying "no".
> 
> I'm originally from Michigan, so I'm Michigan Nice plus indecisive. This does not make a good cocktail for saying "no" to things I don't want to do, because sometimes I'm not sure if I want to say "no" yet which makes me look like I actually want to say "yes"! I've lived in the Seattle area for about 14 years now and I've found that there are some people who communicate and operate like I do (because there are lots of transplants like myself), but the general vibe seems to be passive-aggressive. People don't generally mean what they say, so you really have to listen for the soft "no".
> 
> ...



You're right SOTM, that is a perfect quote, thanks Stacy. 

And this is why I love animals......so much easier to deal with than people!


----------



## lenarenee (Feb 19, 2016)

On the forum there are so many experienced soapers happily giving out information and DeeAnna - you've done more than your share. Your leather and sleigh bell skills are rare, so people would seek out your experience. But this visiting couple made you feel used....I'm curious what vibe you were picking up on to make you feel that way.  Maybe you could sense they haven't even tried research on their own? (Do feel free to tell me to mind my own business!) 

After reading everyone's experiences, I've learned that I'm better at saying no than I realized, probably due to higher amount threatening encounters we deal with here. Maybe it unfortunately takes misuse and abuse before we Midwesterners can get our brave on?

We on the same block as a school with 1000 students. California doesn't provide bus service - parents drop kids off. So 3 times a day our neighborhood is held hostage by parents who whip into our driveway to turn their vehicles around and it doesn't matter if we're standing in the driveway or even backing our own cars out.  There's rarely a week that goes by that we're not either almost struck by them - or they park in, or park completely across it - leaving the car there while they walk to the school.  Confronting these rude and self entitled people has become a necessity - or we can't get our own kid to school (she goes to a different one) or get into our house.  

Then we had a confirmed predator in our neighborhood - right at the time our girl learned to ride her bike around our tiny neighborhood. Bless my neighbors - even the most meek of them were out confronting any possible intruder.  I think we all learned that being "nice" shouldn't always be the tool of choice.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2016)

"... I'm curious what vibe you were picking up on to make you feel that way..."

Hmm. It wasn't outright rudeness or anything like that, so you're right to call it a vibe. The most concrete thing that I can point to was their endless flow of questions, very serious, very fact oriented, very focused on their their agenda. They'd pull out a fragment of old leather strap, want to know how it was constructed, get an answer, wrap it up and put it away, pull out something else from their box, ask about it, get an answer, put it away, and so on. It seemed to me as if they had some clues about things, but they were either looking for confirmation of their ideas or for more details to flesh out their thoughts. As the hour went on, the process took on the feel of a formal oral examination.

Have you ever been at a party and met someone who can only talk about themselves, the amazing things they've done, the amazing people they've seen, the amazing things they're planning to do, etc.? Maybe the conversation flows to other things briefly, but it always comes back to that person holding court. Their stories can be interesting, but eventually you realize the speaker isn't interested in you as a person, just as a pair of listening ears. There's no room for you in the interaction -- it's all about the other person getting their needs met. It was something like that.


----------



## lenarenee (Feb 19, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> "... I'm curious what vibe you were picking up on to make you feel that way..."
> 
> Hmm. It wasn't outright rudeness or anything like that, so you're right to call it a vibe. The most concrete thing that I can point to was their endless flow of questions, very serious, very fact oriented, very focused on their their agenda. They'd pull out a fragment of old leather strap, want to know how it was constructed, get an answer, wrap it up and put it away, pull out something else from their box, ask about it, get an answer, put it away, and so on. It seemed to me as if they had some clues about things, but they were either looking for confirmation of their ideas or for more details to flesh out their thoughts. As the hour went on, the process took on the feel of a formal oral examination.
> 
> Have you ever been at a party and met someone who can only talk about themselves, the amazing things they've done, the amazing people they've seen, the amazing things they're planning to do, etc.? Maybe the conversation flows to other things briefly, but it always comes back to that person holding court. Their stories can be interesting, but eventually you realize the speaker isn't interested in you as a person, just as a pair of listening ears. There's no room for you in the interaction -- it's all about the other person getting their needs met. It was something like that.


 

I wondered if it was something like that. Considering the amount of teaching and giving you do on the forum - plus the many times you've shown your astuteness with human nature, I just found the comment about your feelings interesting. You're too smart to be "taken". But you were stuck with this situation, and it didn't seem like your teacher instinct kicked in - which made me think you didn't have "students" on your hands, only people who wanted a quick fix. 

If I'm being too personal, let me apologize. I was feeling a little protective of you and was frankly surprised that saying no to these people proved to be so difficult for you. Next time....look out world...DeeAnna's ready for you!!


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2016)

Hey, Lenarenee, thanks! It's nice to know you were feeling protective towards me -- DH says I often need protecting!  You are not being too personal and no apology required. In this case, I was peeved at the situation and annoyed with myself, but nothing worse than that. Interesting that you picked up on the fact that I didn't go into full teacher-mode. I never really opened up like I do when I feel comfortable and at ease with people. 

Sage on the Mountain -- "... So, I feel like a big part of learning to say "no" is directly related to sticking up for yourself and training yourself not to be a pushover so you don't get walked all over. ..."

That is so true. Well said! We're taught to treat others with respect, but when we don't treat ourselves with the same respect we give others, that's when the trouble starts.


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 19, 2016)

So I've been rambling all over your page for a while and talking myself into (and then out of) buying a bell. So you don't make bells, but you restore bells, and also design and make leather things that hold bells? That's neat.


----------



## Sagebrush (Feb 19, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> We're taught to treat others with respect, but when we don't treat ourselves with the same respect we give others, that's when the trouble starts.




Yes, this is exactly it! And when we don't treat ourselves with respect, it's hard to take care of (be nice) to those around us when we need to. 

By the way, DeeAnna, I love your jingle bells and your leather work! Don't worry, though...I won't be trying to arrange a visit to your shop!


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 19, 2016)

BTW..., I've got a business idea for you. A line of leather, belled fetishwear called Jingle Freak. You're welcome.


----------



## kchaystack (Feb 19, 2016)

dixiedragon said:


> BTW..., I've got a business idea for you. A line of leather, belled fetishwear called Jingle Freak. You're welcome.



It bothers me that I might know people who would like this.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2016)

kchaystack said:


> It bothers me that I might know people who would like this.



Um, err, well ... so do I. A few. :shifty:



dixiedragon said:


> BTW..., I've got a business idea for you. A line of leather, belled fetishwear called Jingle Freak. You're welcome.



And, um, well, thank you -- it's actually an idea that has occurred to me too. And now I'm gonna leave it at that! :silent:


----------



## kchaystack (Feb 19, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Um, err, well ... so do I. A few. :shifty:
> 
> 
> 
> And, um, well, thank you -- it's actually an idea that has occurred to me too. And now I'm gonna leave it at that! :silent:



Haha.  Do you ever go to Chicago in late May?


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 19, 2016)

A local tack shop near us carried riding crops where the leather part at the end was shaped like a hand. She could NOT keep them in stock. Most of the people buying them were couples. She could tell they weren't horse people. (Nothing wrong with that, just unusual in a tack shop.) They'd oh-so-casually wander in, randomly inspect cowboy hats, etc, and slowly meander towards the crops.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2016)

It's truly amazing how these conversations morph! 8) 8) 8)


----------



## TBandCW (Feb 19, 2016)

I'm really enjoying this!!


----------



## Susie (Feb 19, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Dixie -- I am definitely setting up a fee structure for tours. I would enjoy teaching leather working even without sleigh bells in the mix.



It occurred to me that to avoid having people "stay to chat" after the tour, you could do what the day cares do, and charge $1 per minute for every minute they stay over.


----------



## BlackDog (Feb 19, 2016)

dixiedragon said:


> A local tack shop near us carried riding crops where the leather part at the end was shaped like a hand. She could NOT keep them in stock. Most of the people buying them were couples. She could tell they weren't horse people. (Nothing wrong with that, just unusual in a tack shop.) They'd oh-so-casually wander in, randomly inspect cowboy hats, etc, and slowly meander towards the crops.



I snorted violently at this.


----------



## Steve85569 (Feb 19, 2016)

dixiedragon said:


> A local tack shop near us carried riding crops where the leather part at the end was shaped like a hand. She could NOT keep them in stock. Most of the people buying them were couples. She could tell they weren't horse people. (Nothing wrong with that, just unusual in a tack shop.) They'd oh-so-casually wander in, randomly inspect cowboy hats, etc, and slowly meander towards the crops.



Now that right there is funny.

I asked the religious tract folks a simple question several years ago.

How many of this world's wars have been started about religion?

They have not been back.
I don't get the various solicitors any more.


----------

