# Liquid shampoo



## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

Hello, 

I am looking for someone who is experienced with shampoo making. How is it that a soap company can make shampoo that doesn't have a very cleansing feeling with just these ingredients in the pcicture? It's a very nice feeling shampoo but everyone also says you need surfactants for shampoo. Clearly not. I don't see any surfactants here at all. What would be the process for making a shampoo with these ingredients? They only use saponified coconut oil. None of the other oils are saponified. 

Thanks


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 27, 2022)

Soapmaker333 said:


> I am looking for someone who is experienced with shampoo making.


That  would be little ole lonely me.   I am the Rodney Dangerfield of SMF because I make lye-based shampoo, liquid and bar.

Alaiyna B Blogspot - *Liquid Shampoo Tutorial*

If you've never made liquid soap before, take some time to read the rest of the info provided on that site. Make a few small batches to get the hang of it before adding pricey extracts, additives, fragrance, etc. NOTE: I once made 100% Almond Oil Shampoo by special request for a customer. I was amazed at how much lather it had. Almond oil is very good for hair. 



Soapmaker333 said:


> It's a very nice feeling shampoo but everyone also says you need surfactants for shampoo.


The subject of lye-based shampoo bars used to be banned due to the strong emotional response to the possibility of damage it can cause.*  Lye-based shampoo is not for everyone.* Search "Shampoo" to learn more. The large majority of SMF members make and recommend syndets for that reason.

I have not had that problem. I've been using bars and liquid to wash my hair ever since I first joined a forum in 2004. But I had good mentors and there are some things you should be aware of before going down that road.

*EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT ALL NATURAL SHAMPOO*

HAPPY SHAMPOOING!


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## AliOop (Apr 27, 2022)

That ingredient list looks very odd to me. It starts with a CO-based liquid soap (potassium cocoate) and glycerin, followed by a slew of other oils and extracts added. However, no emulsifier is listed, and that would be necessary to keep any significant amount of those oils and extracts combined with the liquid soap, rather than separating out.

Did they intentionally leave out the emulsifier from the ingredients list (because it won't sound "natural")?

Or does one of these extracts serve as an emulsifier?

OR... are they using mere drops of every ingredient after the potassium cocoate and glycerin, so that the total amount of extras is low enough not to separate from the soap? If so, I don't see how there could be enough of any of those additional ingredients to make any meaningful difference in the soap.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 27, 2022)

@Soapmaker333 -- "...everyone also says you need surfactants for shampoo. Clearly not. I don't see any surfactants here at all...."

I see some misunderstandings here, so time for some clarifications.

Coconut oil saponified with KOH (potassium cocoate) is soap. So soap is the main cleansing ingredient in this product.

A simple way of defining a surfactant is any chemical that acts as a chemical bridge between water INsoluble chemicals like fats and water. This chemical bridging causes fats (or other water insoluble chemicals) to become more water soluble.

Surfactants (surface active agents) include emulsifiers, solubilizers, soaps, synthetic detergents, and many other chemicals.

Soap is a surface active agent in that it can emulsify or solubilize fats so they become more water soluble, hence soap is a surfactant. Potassium cocoate is a soap hence it is also a surfactant.

A surfactant that is good at cleaning surfaces is called a detergent. Soap, including this potassium cocoate, is a surfactant that cleans, hence soap is a detergent.

Not every surfactant is good at cleaning things, however, so it's good to remember that all detergents are surfactants, but not all surfactants are detergents (cleansers).

@AliOop -- KOH soap can solubilize / emulsify small amounts of fats, so you're probably right they're using only tiny amounts of each oil to keep the total amount low enough the soap can handle the fat load.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> @Soapmaker333 -- "...everyone also says you need surfactants for shampoo. Clearly not. I don't see any surfactants here at all...."
> 
> I see some misunderstandings here, so time for some clarifications.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response. I understand that you are categorizing saponified coconut oil as a surfactant, and while it is cleansing, by modern standards it is by no means a surfactant.


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## Shgre (Apr 27, 2022)

Great question! This is something I've always wondered.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 27, 2022)

Soapmaker333 said:


> ... categorizing saponified coconut oil as a surfactant ... it is by no means a surfactant.



Kindly cite a reputable source that says soap, whether potassium cocoate or any other form of soap, is not a surfactant.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

There are a couple of definitions. Soap is and of itself is a surfactant, but it is not a chemical surfactant. Most liquid soaps are made of chemical surfactants and not saponified oils.

 I don't understand why you came in here with a bad attitude. It is unfortunate. You are by no means welcoming, you have been condescending. I can see that even you had to edit your comment because you must have perceived your condescension.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

Again, a surfactant in colloquial terms is not referring to soap, but the chemicals used in it. In colloquial terms no one refers to soap as an added surfactant/chemical. But you, being very literal, have come to correct everyone rather than help. I would appreciate it if you leave this post alone unless you would like to be kind.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> That  would be little ole lonely me.   I am the Rodney Dangerfield of SMF because I make lye-based shampoo, liquid and bar.
> 
> Alaiyna B Blogspot - *Liquid Shampoo Tutorial*
> 
> ...


What an excellent and helpful response. Thank you so much!


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> @Soapmaker333 -- "...everyone also says you need surfactants for shampoo. Clearly not. I don't see any surfactants here at all...."
> 
> I see some misunderstandings here, so time for some clarifications.
> 
> ...


I see what you mean. I meant surfactant in a particular way that is used colloquially - a chemical surfactant. This is helpful, thank you.


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## AliOop (Apr 27, 2022)

Whoa @Soapmaker333 you have totally misconstrued DeeAnna's tone, intent, and content. She is THE most helpful person on this site. And everything she said in her post is scientifically and technically correct. 

If you prefer to use "colloquial" terms, you are free to do so. But that doesn't make DeeAnna wrong, rude, or unhelpful.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

Shgre said:


> Great question! This is something I've always wondered.


There are some good answers on here!


AliOop said:


> Whoa @Soapmaker333 you have totally misconstrued DeeAnna's tone, intent, and content. She is THE most helpful person on this site. And everything she said in her post is scientifically and technically correct.
> 
> If you prefer to use "colloquial" terms, you are free to do so. But that doesn't make DeeAnna wrong, rude, or unhelpful.


I don't think so. This is how she addressed me originally. With condescension. If that is not insulting and unhelpful I don't know what is.


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## AliOop (Apr 27, 2022)

Soapmaker333 said:


> There are some good answers on here!
> 
> I don't think so. This is how she addressed me originally. With condescension. If that is not insulting and unhelpful I don't know what is.


I can assure you that you are misreading the tone of that comment. It was tongue-in-cheek, not condescending. Your subsequent comments were way over the top, and everything that you are accusing her of being.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 27, 2022)

You add to the suffering of this world just as much when you take offence, as when you give offence.  One of my favourite sayings.


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## cmzaha (Apr 27, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Whoa @Soapmaker333 you have totally misconstrued DeeAnna's tone, intent, and content. She is THE most helpful person on this site. And everything she said in her post is scientifically and technically correct.
> 
> If you prefer to use "colloquial" terms, you are free to do so. But that doesn't make DeeAnna wrong, rude, or unhelpful.


My opinion is the same as yours. We now attack one of the most helpful persons in this forum. Wow!! But then, many do not like opinions when they do not match theirs. BTW I am one of the totally again "SOAP" as shampoo. It will destroy long beautiful hair or has a very high possibility of doing so. I have a large feeling Zany has short hair which is cut regularly.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

I'm sorry everyone but I think you're biased. She says? "Ahem" which is tongue in cheek, who is the audience of this joke? 

I apologize if I made the wrong asusmption, truly. Clearly if you edit a comment you must regret the way you talked though.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

cmzaha said:


> My opinion is the same as yours. We now attack one of the most helpful persons in this forum. Wow!! But then, many do not like opinions when they do not match theirs. BTW I am one of the totally again "SOAP" as shampoo. It will destroy long beautiful hair or has a very high possibility of doing so. I have a large feeling Zany has short hair which is cut regularly.


Thank you for your commentary.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> You add to the suffering of this world just as much when you take offence, as when you give offence.  One of my favourite sayings.


I think that saying is objectively false. Perhaps it can only be applied to innocuous offenses.


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## AliOop (Apr 27, 2022)

Soapmaker333 said:


> I'm sorry everyone but I think you're biased. She says? "Ahem" which is tongue in cheek, who is the audience of this joke?
> 
> I apologize if I made the wrong asusmption, truly. Clearly if you edit a comment you must regret the way you talked though.


The fact that she edited after she realized you weren't tracking with her humor, doesn't mean she was wrong. 

Humility is a sign of kindness and strength, not weakness.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 27, 2022)

Soapmaker333 said:


> I think that saying is objectively false. Perhaps it can only be applied to innocuous offenses.


Yes - I think so.  If someone is deliberately hurling insults then of course someone will be offended.  But I've found it a useful saying in recent years as forum activity has become more commonplace as a way of interaction - oftentimes there is no offence intended but tone can so easily be misconstrued in written communication.  It's good to remember that almost everyone does not have the intention of deliberately upsetting or insulting people.
"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good - oh lord please don't let me be misunderstood"


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## DeeAnna (Apr 27, 2022)

AliOop said:


> The fact that she edited after she realized you weren't tracking with her humor, doesn't mean she was wrong....



I appreciate your words, AliOop, but I edited my post based purely on my own personal desire to do so -- almost 3 hours before the OP started this kerfluffle.

The OP's screenshot gives the impression that ALL I did was remove that "ahem" when I edited my post. Truth is, I also made other edits that are not included in their brief screenshot.

I do not appreciate the OP's selective reveal of only that small quote from my original post -- just enough to support their opinion of me, but not enough to provide the whole, proper context of what I said.

But enough. This is the last I'm saying on this issue.

In my mind, the important issue here is the importance of using technical words with their proper meaning. Using technical words in a consistent way is the basis for effective communication in science, including the lower level science we do when making soap. 

People come here to this forum to learn more about the technical aspects of soap making, among other things. The words surfactant and detergent should be used based on their correct technical meaning.

We don't all have to be PhD surfactant chemists, but if we're going to use technical words, we should be responsible enough to use them as correctly and accurately as we can. Otherwise the words will become meaningless because everyone defines them differently.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 27, 2022)

cmzaha said:


> I have a large feeling Zany has short hair which is cut regularly.


Love ya, Carolyn, but i have to tell ya that statement couldn't be further from the truth.   

Most of my life my hair has been medium length bob or some variation of that. During COVID lockdown, it grew to ponytail / bun length. I had it cut the shortest I've ever worn it last year. I needed a "wash & wear" style due to not being able to manage styling it on my own due to old age/ arthritis. 

At the moment, it's shoulder length and suffering from the effects of my *castor oil experiment* rubbed on my scalp to improve thickness. (I need to update that post!) Castor is so hard to wash out that a detergent shampoo X 2 was needed. It ruined my hair!

The funny thing is, maybe not so funny, the same thing happened to my healthy virgin hair that those who suffer damage to their hair due to using lye-based shampoo complain about! ACK! It looks awful.

I have an appt. tomorrow to have a couple inches of dry ends cut off and to have it shaped so I don't have to fiddle with it. Hopefully, it will recover once I get back to using my regular all natural lye-based shampoos. Cross fingers.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

AliOop said:


> The fact that she edited after she realized you weren't tracking with her humor, doesn't mean she was wrong.
> 
> Humility is a sign of kindness and strength, not weakness.


It was deleted before I commented but nice try.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

DeeAnna said:


> @Soapmaker333 -- "...everyone also says you need surfactants for shampoo. Clearly not. I don't see any surfactants here at all...."
> 
> I see some misunderstandings here, so time for some clarifications.
> 
> ...


DeeAnna, if I misunderstood you I apologize. Based off of your comment I assumed you were being rude because it was rude. At that point I did not comment and you changed it because you probably had a feeling it was a rude way to treat someone.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 27, 2022)

*Now back to our normally scheduled program... *

@Soapmaker333 Thank you for posting the ingredients to that shampoo! Since I've never heard of Magnesium Chloride Oil, I googled it.

*Magnesium Oil for Hair: Benefits*

Amazing stuff!!! Without intending to, I believe you have given me a way better treatment for thickening my hair than nasty old castor oil! 




1 cup of magnesium chloride flakes
1 cup of distilled or purified water

Pour magnesium flakes into a glass measuring cup or bowl.
Bring water to a boil, then pour over the flakes.
Stir until they're completed dissolved.
Set aside to cool and away from sunlight.
Pour into a glass spray bottle.
I can't wait to try it!


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> *Now back to our normally scheduled program... *
> 
> @Soapmaker333 Thank you for posting the ingredients to that shampoo! Since I've never heard of Magnesium Chloride Oil, I googled it.
> 
> ...


Please update me with your process and how it goes!


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

Shgre said:


> Great question! This is something I've always wondered.


Thank you! Great minds think alike!


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## cmzaha (Apr 27, 2022)

deleted


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## Shgre (Apr 27, 2022)

AliOop said:


> can assure you that you are misreading the tone of that comment. It was tongue-in-cheek, not condescending.



To be honest, I have no idea how you interpreted that. As a third party, it sounded a little rude. And since we're all soap enthusiasts, we should be helping each other IMHO without the attitude.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 27, 2022)

Shgre said:


> To be honest, I have no idea how you interpreted that. As a third party, it sounded a little rude. And since we're all soap enthusiasts, we should be helping each other IMHO without the attitude.


Thank you, Shgre! I'm no expert, but I am an enthusiast and I'm just trying to learn. Let's just all put this aside and just move on. It's soap, people... 

I love the name, by the way!


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## AliOop (Apr 27, 2022)

Shgre said:


> To be honest, I have no idea how you interpreted that. As a third party, it sounded a little rude. And since we're all soap enthusiasts, we should be helping each other IMHO without the attitude.


Because I know DeeAnna, and she isn’t rude. 

And when I don’t know someone, I assume the best interpretation, not the worst. Life is a lot happier that way.


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## NewbieAnn (Apr 28, 2022)

I came to this forum to learn about soap, and DeeAnna's post was educational. Thank you, DeeAnna.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 28, 2022)

AliOop said:


> That ingredient list looks very odd to me. It starts with a CO-based liquid soap (potassium cocoate) and glycerin, followed by a slew of other oils and extracts added. However, no emulsifier is listed,


You are correct. According to *this INCI chart*, _potassium cocoate_ is the nomenclature for liquid soap made with coconut oil & KOH and I interpreted it as such.  Scroll all the way to the end where it says to sub "_potassium_" for "_sodium_". I hope we can agree that, as such, no "emulsifier" is necessary. It's liquid shampoo not lotion that would require an emulsifier, yes?



AliOop said:


> I don't see how there could be enough of any of those additional ingredients to make any meaningful difference in the soap.


Here's the ingredient break down -- I presume in order of highest to lowest % of each:

*Water*
Coconut oil 50%
*Glycerin
Magnesium Chloride oil*
Olive oil 30%
Tangerine essential oil (Fragrance)
Linseed (flaxseed) oil 5%
Pumpkinseed oil 5%
Sunflower seed oil 5%
Avocado oil 5%
Extracts: Pine, chamomile, nettle leaf, clover flower, green apple, pineapple.

If I wanted to duplicate this shampoo I would saponify the oils in blue with a combination of *water, magnisum chloride flakes & glycerin* + KOH to make the lye solution. I would add the Tangerine EO after dilution at the recommended % according to AFRA. I would add the extracts after dilution at the % recommended by the supplier.

Re: Magnesium Chloride "Oil" - Based on my resesarch, I'm thinking it would be best added as part of the liquid used to make the lye, similar to *"Faux Sea Salt"* in *ZNSC*.

What puzzles me the most is: Why are some of the ingredients listed colored green???


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## AliOop (Apr 28, 2022)

@Zany_in_CO I am quite aware that this is liquid soap and not lotion. I know you are also aware that liquid soap cannot hold a lot of additives or superfat without an emulsifier or solubizer. Per DeeAnna’s response, she concurred that it can hold some - but not very much. My understanding is that without an additional solubizer like PS80, liquid soap can only hold maybe 2-3% of the total batch weight in additives.

So my point was that all those ingredients after glycerine must be included in only tiny amounts that combined together only add up to maybe 3% of the total batch weight. Otherwise, they would separate out, either floating on top or sinking to the bottom. This, I have to respectfully disagree with the suggested percentages in your post above. There is no way that those amounts would stay solubized or emulsified in the soap without additional chemical assistance.

To the extent you are assuming the other oils you have listed in blue were saponified, that does not square with how the ingredients are listed. Only the coconut oil is noted as saponified (potassium cocoate) - all the others are listed by their non-saponified names. ETA: and potassium hydroxide isn’t listed as an ingredient, either.

So either they weren’t saponified and were added in minuscule amounts, or they were saponified and the label is written incorrectly. Hard to say.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 28, 2022)

AliOop said:


> I know you are also aware that liquid soap cannot hold a lot of additives or superfat without an emulsifier or solubizer.


No, I don't know that.   But I hear what you're saying...it's an intimidating list of ingredients for a novice LS-er. No worries. 

Based on my experience, i.e., 10 years on the Liquid Soap Makers Yahoo group, Polysorbate was *often* (but NOT *always*) used to make EOs and FOs water soluble when added to LS after dilution. I still do that in some cases today if needed. A water-soluble shea-butter-in-polysorbate 60 is also available. But I don't see the need for a solubizer in duplicating this shampoo. (@DeeAnna, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. After all, you are our beloved SMF Soapy Science Guru!  )

I've tried quite a few duplications over the years and I think my break down is close to the original as a "trial batch" with *0% SF*.

I'm no expert, but *having taken a second look*, I think the ingredients listed in green may be a single ingredient, i.e., olive oil infused with the herbs listed with it, which I have done many times back in the day when I was using a lot of herbal infused oils, and the herbs would be listed separately as "extracts". That should cover your concern about the number of extracts. Likewise, the *linseed, pumpkin and sunflower* , also listed in green, may be a blend used for some kind of hair treatment??? Not sure.
So thank you! Challenging me to have another look helped!


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## AliOop (Apr 28, 2022)

@Zany_in_CO I think you are missing my point. The list is neither intimidating nor mysterious to me, nor am I a novice LS'er (although admittedly my experience is nowhere as extensive as yours).

I am not saying that your suggested way of making LS is wrong.

I am saying that your suggested "dupe" doesn't fit how the label is written.

The additional oils are not listed as saponified oils. If they were added without saponification, they either must be in very tiny amounts, or a solubizer would have to be included to keep them "mixed in." But no solubizer is included in the ingredient list.

If those oils you noted were saponified, then your suggested dupe would be 100% correct, *BUT the label as written would be wrong*. No KOH is listed in the ingredients, and the oil names are shown as non-saponified.

Does that clarify?


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 28, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Only the coconut oil is noted as saponified (potassium cocoate) - all the others are listed by their non-saponified names


Good catch! You're so smart! BUT. That would indicate *to me* that a syndet surfactant was used, and listed with the _INCI nomenclature for coconut oil_ rather than the common nomenclature of the other oils. 

Since there are no "rules" as such for listing the ingredients for soap like there is for lotion and other B&B products, I can assume that's okay. In any case, I would NOT use the syndet in duplicating this shampoo.


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## AliOop (Apr 28, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Good catch! You're so smart! BUT. That would indicate *to me* that a syndet surfactant was used, and listed with the _INCI nomenclature for coconut oil_ rather than the common nomenclature of the other oils.
> 
> Since there are no "rules" as such for listing the ingredients for soap like there is for lotion and other B&B products, I can assume that's okay. In any case, I would NOT use the syndet in duplicating this shampoo.


I actually tend to agree with your suggested dupe as being the way the soap was actually made. Your idea about infused oils was right on, and one I had not considered.

Bottom line, I just don't agree with how they wrote the label.


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## cmzaha (Apr 28, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Love ya, Carolyn, but i have to tell ya that statement couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> Most of my life my hair has been medium length bob or some variation of that. During COVID lockdown, it grew to ponytail / bun length. I had it cut the shortest I've ever worn it last year. I needed a "wash & wear" style due to not being able to manage styling it on my own due to old age/ arthritis.
> 
> ...


We are not all the same and not all hair is created equal so some can use soap based and some cannot as we know. My long time as a cosmetologist always seeks through as we know.  At least you put up with me without getting offended and I appreciate that.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 28, 2022)

cmzaha said:


> We are not all the same and not all hair is created equal so some can use soap based and some cannot as we know. My long time as a cosmetologist always seeks through as we know.  At least you put up with me without getting offended and I appreciate that.


No one is offended here!


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 28, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> You are correct. According to *this INCI chart*, _potassium cocoate_ is the nomenclature for liquid soap made with coconut oil & KOH and I interpreted it as such.  Scroll all the way to the end where it says to sub "_potassium_" for "_sodium_". I hope we can agree that, as such, no "emulsifier" is necessary. It's liquid shampoo not lotion that would require an emulsifier, yes?
> 
> 
> Here's the ingredient break down -- I presume in order of highest to lowest % of each:
> ...


Green indicates organic.


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## Soapmaker333 (Apr 28, 2022)

NewbieAnn said:


> I came to this forum to learn about soap, and DeeAnna's post was educational. Thank you, DeeAnna.


Glad my post helped you!


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 29, 2022)

Soapmaker333 said:


> Green indicates organic.


Well, that explains that!   Thanks.

Next question - I assume you are using that shampoo, yes? What is it that you like/don't like about it?


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## earlene (May 5, 2022)

Welcome to the forum, Soapmaker333.  I hope you find the LS shampoo that you are aiming for, if it is your aim to make one yourself.  As you read around inside the forums here at SMF, you'll find this is one of those controversial subjects that sometimes leads to very heated discussion.  But please, as you read them, please take into account that the underlying intent of the cautionary posts therein, has been to prevent others from going through bad experiences they may have personally had themselves.  That is my experience here at SMF.  But not everyone has the same experience and just as not everyone's skin can tolerate the exact same bar soap formula, and some cannot even tolerate true soap at all, the same goes for Lye Shampoos, some have no problems using it, while others simply cannot.  I won't go into my own experience with shampoos at this point, it's been done to death & it's my hair, not yours' anyway.  

But there is one point I'd like to point out because I just have one minor issue with one of your statements/assumptions regarding why a person may or may not edit a post on a public forum.   I am reminded of something about my husband that I now and again remind him of, and that is using the words "Everybody", "Always", and "Nobody" in blanket statements that excludes the possibility that there are outliers in these situations.

Not every _*edit*_ a member makes is for the purpose of fixing insulting language.  Ironically, that statement/assumption felt insulting to me.  But just so you know, I am not truly insulted.  It was a fleeting feeling, and I choose to let the feeling go because I believe you had no intent whatsoever to insult me.  

Here is why I felt it on a personal level:  I make a lot of edits, and almost always it is to correct spelling or grammatical errors or to add in something I had meant to include & inadvertently left out.  Historically I am very bad at proof reading my own written material, so prior to submitting items for publication, I often requested friends or family to proof-read for grammatical errors.  My Mom was the same way.  In fact, she used to have my eldest son at the young age of 10 or 12 edit her work prior to submitting her column to the newspaper where she was a contract columnist (not on permanent staff).  If the internet had existed at the time and she had participated in online forums, I am sure she would have had to go back and edit her posts as frequently as I do now, and it would never have had anything to do with rudeness.  My mother was the epitome of politeness.  I cannot say that I inherited her level of skilled interpersonal communication from her, but I do try to emulate both of my parents' better qualities.


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## Zany_in_CO (May 5, 2022)

@earlene Well said! Thank you. Unfortunately, after running a virtual marathon of 21 posts, mostly defending herself against an onslaught of well-intentioned comments from members, @Soapmaker333 has left the forum.


Soapmaker333 said:


> I'm just going to ignore it and move on. They are quite passionate


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## AliOop (May 5, 2022)

@Zany_in_CO that is a very interesting view of the situation given that this person started an all-out attack based on a misperception of another member's "tone," and continued to berate her despite attempts by others to assure her that no harm was intended.

Also, we have no information about whether she left voluntarily or was removed by admins for that behavior.


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