# Need for Emulsifiers and Preservatives



## seaWA (Sep 21, 2010)

Okay, I've read a million websites, but only spent a couple of months making my own potions: no soap yet--so far lip balm and body butter. The body butter (it's usually shea-coconut or shea-coconut-palm kernel oil...next up I want to put in some olive oil) I actually use on my face, too--it's very shiny, but if I use my towel to blot my face after a minute or two (of letting it sink in), then no shine, and lots of good moisture and soft skin.

I'd love something creamier and less greasy in texture, I think, but that would require water, wouldn't it (and therefore an emulsifier)? So that makes me wonder....is the water really adding anything, given that I put this on straight out of the shower anyway (so I'm still damp)? Why DO we add water to lotions/creams? I have some liquid lecithin I can play with, but I'm just not sure what I'm gaining and losing by adding the water.

Can I get that creamy texture just from adding almond oil or olive oil, instead of water?

I've also read that water (even distilled or boiled) adds to the risk of bacterial contamination--is this true? I haven't had to use preservatives yet, because I make small batches, use oils strongly resistant to rancidity, and (again) really only put it on straight out of the shower (so the bacteria my hands are adding is minimized, though certainly not nothing). I'd like to continue not to use preservatives.

Along the same lines, my lip balm came out terrific right away (it's the recipe all over the web: 40% liquid oil, 25% solid oil, 20% beeswax, and 15% brittle oil), but that doesn't have any preservative either, and I put my dirty fingers in it a million times a day--why wouldn't that get nasty? 

I guess partly what I'm asking is, is it mostly water I have to worry about (in terms of bacterial/fungal growth), or mostly my own hands? And wouldn't tea tree oil and/or honey and/or other natural antifungals/antibacterials do the trick, if I'm only needing these things to last at most a few months (for gifts)? I'm trying to make the simplest possible natural creams/lotions, while still hoping for a nice texture.


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## dagmar88 (Sep 21, 2010)

Bacteria and fungi need water to grow; so as long as there isn't any water in your recipes and you won't be introducing moisture to the final product (like an opened jar of body butter sitting in your damp bathroom), you don't need a preservative.
All products that do contain water need a good broad spectrum preservative like optiphen or phenonip. Tea tree, honey, grape seed exract and other 'natural' things don't to the trick.

Water and emulsifiers are added for texture and a less greasy dry down. Without water and emulsifiers, it's not a cream and any recipe with just oils and butters won't have that creamy feel.

You could try to make whipped shea butter...


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## seaWA (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks--that's helpful; it explains why the lip balm is okay without preservatives (and the body butter), though a cream wouldn't be. I think I'll just live with the temporary greasiness, since it makes it so much simpler and is still nice on my skin...I have indeed whipped the shea butter (with coconut oil), which is nice, and next time I might try to soften it further w/ the olive oil. 

If I decide to try for a creamier texture (i.e. with water), do you think I'd need a preservative even if I plan to use it in a month or two? I've come across lots of recipes without them (at the moment I'm looking at this one: http://fimby.tougas.net/homemade-moistu ... ion-winter which has the beeswax/borax emulsifying combo). I guess I figure if it's icky enough to not use, I'll be able to tell.....

Thanks again.


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## dagmar88 (Sep 21, 2010)

I *think* whipped shea's usually 75% shea and 25% liquid oils. 
You could add dry-flo or corn startch to make it feel slightly less greasy.

That recipe contains GSE : http://www.terressentials.com/truthaboutgse.html

I'd personally rather use BTMS or E-wax instead of beeswax and borax; they're both more stable and milder.

By the time your cream looks/smells/feels icky; you're already way too late...  :wink: 
I wouldn't use a cream without preservatives that has been in the fridge for more than a couple of days or so.

 Preservatives aren't scary; giving stuff away that could contain all sorts of nasties is  :wink:


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## seaWA (Sep 21, 2010)

Interesting....I actually wasn't going to use the GSE--I'd already read that it wasn't useful, so I was just going to do without. I have a whole book (Ecobeauty) of recipes without preservatives, too, though (one that I wanted to try, for example, is just boiling water, 1/8 t borax, 1/2 c almond oil, and shea butter). I'm not rigid about it (I've used commercial lotions all my life without apparent ill effect), but I also just wonder...what harm would it do? You say "way too late", but for what? 

I just doubt it's likely to hurt me, even if there's some bacteria in it. Using preservatives in a lotion that's going to be used up quickly just seems kind of like antibacterial soap--probably overkill, and full of stuff that's not time-tested in its effects.


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## krissy (Sep 21, 2010)

you could try this... 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8VYLtP4_w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl8VYLtP4_w[/ame]


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## seaWA (Sep 21, 2010)

interesting, thanks. I never thought of using alcohol, though that seems to have its own issues. again, though, Snowdrift makes it clear they're going for a year-long shelf life. If I'm satisfied by a month or two, I'm still not sure I'd need it. I'd love to see something that told me both what was growing after a month, and whether it was harmful. it might be like the bacteria on sponges, or the dust-mite-corpses on pillows--gross to know about in detail, but (for most of us) a pretty harmless fact of life. 

thoughts?


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## seaWA (Sep 21, 2010)

Just looked up optiphen and phenonip...the latter I wouldn't use, because of the parabens, and the optiphen seems to be essentially a variant of ethanol....so perhaps the perfumer's alcohol that Snowdrift has, or the everclear that a few other sites mention, is a good way to go if one IS concerned about shelf life. I love the cosmeticsdatabase.com, but its usefulness is somewhat limited--for example, they refer to the cancer risk of ethanol, but it's because of the known dangers of DRINKING alcohol, it's not because of actual known dangers of putting it on your skin.


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## soapbuddy (Sep 21, 2010)

I like this web site better for truth than the cosmetcidatabase.
http://personalcaretruth.com/


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## Lindy (Sep 21, 2010)

Lotions and creams made with water, aloe vera extract, etc need preservatives.  Just because you can't see the nasties doesn't mean they're aren't there - it would be like licking a toilet handle - it's shiny and looks clean but it can make you sick.

I use corn starch to cut the greasiness of my body butters.....


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## seaWA (Sep 21, 2010)

Since I'm not going to eat the lotion, I guess I think it would be more like TOUCHING the toilet handle to my skin, which I do all the time (though I grant you I wash my hands afterwards). Seriously, though, I'm not saying there's nothing harmful in a lotion after a month or two, I'm just wondering what it IS, and what it DOES to us. Bacteria are everywhere (95% of the cells in our bodies, in fact, are bacteria, not "us"), and most of them are not remotely harmful.


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## soapbuddy (Sep 21, 2010)

Here are some links to think about.

http://thebeautybrains.com/2008/09/27/n ... -to-avoid/
http://thebeautybrains.com/2008/04/25/7 ... cosmetics/


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## Lindy (Sep 21, 2010)

Unpreserved lotions start to grow "stuff" immediately.  This is a leave-on product which means that your skin can and does absorb 40% of what you leave on it.  Since it's only for you then you can do whatever you want, actually even if you were selling if people don't know better than to buy an unprotected product then you can still do what you want.  

It's obvious that you are new to this and there are a lot of people trying to impress upon you the importance of doing it right as well as knowing what you're doing.  Totally up to you if you want to learn or not...

Cheers


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## soapbuddy (Sep 21, 2010)

If this lotion is just for you, then you do whatever...

If this is for sale, your liability insurance is NOT going to cover you if you do NOT use a preservative system for bath & body products you are selling. People are sue happy. You could loose your home and any belongings. Are you willing  to take that chance?

PS. Germs, mold and bacteria will exponentially multiply in a moist environment like a cream or a lotion, even in the fridge. Just because it looks ok and smells ok, it might not be ok.


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## dagmar88 (Sep 22, 2010)

seaWA said:
			
		

> interesting, thanks. I never thought of using alcohol, though that seems to have its own issues. again, though, Snowdrift makes it clear they're going for a year-long shelf life. If I'm satisfied by a month or two, I'm still not sure I'd need it. I'd love to see something that told me both what was growing after a month, and whether it was harmful. it might be like the bacteria on sponges, or the dust-mite-corpses on pillows--gross to know about in detail, but (for most of us) a pretty harmless fact of life.
> 
> thoughts?



Do you REALLY want to know? 

Fungi

Fungi are a unique group of organisms that have some plantlike characteristics. Examples of fungi include mushrooms, mold, and yeast. Fungi differ from plants, however, in two major ways: (1) their cell walls are made of chitin, rather than cellulose, and (2) they lack the ability to make their own food by photosynthesis; thus they grow directly on their food source. *This food source can be the human skin*.

Some fungi are simple one-celled organisms. Others are relatively complex, exhibiting specialized cell functions. They grow in soil, on living and dead plants and trees, as well as on animals and humans. *The reproductive cell, or spore, of a fungus can be spread by direct contact, air, and water.*

Deep fungal infections invade deeper layers of the skin and hair follicles and can spread to the blood or internal organs. 

http://www.dermatologychannel.net/funga ... ndex.shtml

Go to images.google.com and search for fungal infections of the skin. Once had one, God knows where it came from, on my entire torso and legs. 
That did not look pretty   and took two months to get rid off. Couldn't even hold the newborn babies of two befriended couples cause I was highly contagious.

Same goes for bacterial infections like for example (bacterial) conjunctivitis, or pink eye.


Some more info (containing pics of fungal and bacterial growth in unpreserved lotion after three days)  : http://personalcaretruth.com/2010/06/wh ... ervatives/


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## Hazel (Sep 22, 2010)

Fungal infections are horrible! I've had them twice and I've no idea how I got them. (Although I can confidently say it wasn't from anything I made    ) I had to go to the doctor to get a prescription strength cream to clear them up because the OTC creams didn't help.


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## seaWA (Sep 22, 2010)

Thanks to all. I didn't realize that even asking the question would bother people. It's not that I think that natural products are necessarily safe (though I think it's quite unlikely I would have used frog toxins in my lotion, so I think that beautybrains link sets up some very strange straw men to prove an obvious point) and man-made ones necessarily dangerous, it's just that it seems obvious to me that as with food, the needs of someone who wants to make tens of thousands of something, store it for a year or two, and sell it at a profit, are different from the needs of someone who's going to make something fresh and hang onto it for a month or so....this is even kind of the the indirect point of the other beautybrains link, when it says natural preservatives don't work "as well"--because I don't need something to work as well, I just need it to work enough to be safe. In GENERAL I think our society is dangerously ridiculous about bacteria (which cover our bodies no matter if we sit in boiling water, in addition to making up the vast majority of cells within us), so I just wanted some more information to develop a SPECIFIC idea about lotionmaking. I still don't really have it--fungi may feed on our skin, but so do a million other things (microscopic bugs, bacteria, etc.) that we need in order to survive--just because something is a creepy idea doesn't make it a dangerous fact. I'm willing to believe that extra, new fungi found in creams are a very bad idea for broken skin, for example....I just wish I knew a proper way to balance these concerns: how dangerous they really are, with how likely they really are, and whether it's possible to avoid them in other ways (choice of oils, refrigeration, or whatever), etc.

And that, unfortunately, is what I still don't have, so I'll mostly stick to the anhydrous body butters, for now, and maybe try an alcohol preservative for some lotion occasionally.

As for the validity of personalcaretruth.com.....as Upton Sinclair said, it's difficult to get a man to understand something if his paycheck depends on his not understanding it; industry scientists have biases like anybody else. The Environmental Working Group site may not be perfect, but they're not relying on industry studies (or their own), so for the moment I'm still inclined to think their biases are a lot more trustworthy.


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## dagmar88 (Sep 22, 2010)

I don't think it's your question that bothers people, it is your reluctant additude towards their well ment advises.


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## PrairieCraft (Sep 22, 2010)

It sounds like you are determined to disregard the good information you are getting here.  So why bother asking?  I'm pretty sure you aren't going to convince anyone to tell you that you don't need a preservative.  

The fact that we are covered in naturally occurring bacteria doesn't change the fact that you will be making something that does not occur naturally and putting it on your skin which also doesn't happen naturally.  So the lotion isn't natural and putting it on your skin isn't natural, even if you don't use a preservative.

I don't think your question has bothered people, it's more likely your reaction to all of the answers you have gotten.

If you really want to be totally natural, I wouldn't use any lotion at all.  It can clog your pores, your body will absorb any fragrance you put into, the oils you will use are being shipped to you from a far away land using very unnatural means....I could go on.


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## seaWA (Sep 22, 2010)

Dagmar, I am indeed reluctant, but only to use something I'm not sure is necessary. I was hoping people could tell me when/why it was necessary in a noncommercial context, but no one has. I appreciate your replies in particular, since they seemed balanced & informative, so I'm sorry if I seemed unappreciative to you.

Prairiecraft: in what way is it crazy-extremist (as you imply, by joking that I'd be reluctant to even use lotion) to simply want to minimize the use of broad-spectrum antibacterials? The overuse of products like that is a big problem, and there are at least possible health concerns about them, which I'm not ready to dismiss. I'm NOT saying you're over-using them, or that I would be if I put them in my lotions, only that I'm still lacking in the same information I'd hoped to get from here. I've only gotten broad generalizations, and links to sites that seem highly biased and industry-funded. 

Clearly, the bias on this site is towards using these things--that may well be justified, especially for anyone who's making things to sell. But I'm not, and I made that clear from the start. Unless I hear someone with a solid answer for why it might be dangerous for me not to use these products, I'm not going to use them, any more than I'm going to toss a bunch of preservatives into my dinner tonight before I feed my family or friends.....all things in their proper measure and context.


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## PrairieCraft (Sep 22, 2010)

I wasn't trying to imply anything really, just making a point.  When someone talks about being extreme in one direction I just like to point out that it's possibly to be equally extreme in the other direction.  Also, I really wasn't joking about not using lotion.  I personally dislike lotion, if I feel the need to moisturize I just use straight oil.  Boring maybe but it works and there is nothing in it that shouldn't be.

I only jumped into this conversation that doesn't really concern me because it seems so strange to me to ask someone with more knowledge for advice and then try to tell them that advice isn't valid.  Just the bit about lotions growing mold within three days would be enough for me.

But, like a few others here have said, if you would rather risk some sort of infection (most of us have small cuts or abrasions to the skin constantly) than use a preservative that is definitely your right.  Maybe you could keep us all posted on whether or not you see changes in the lotion, what those changes are and how long you felt it stayed good enough to use.  

Also, I don't know if there is a bias on this site favoring preservatives.  More like a preference for safety and doing things the right way.  Dangerous, that's a pretty strong term.  Problematic may be more accurate, or embarrassing if one of your gifts infect someone.  People are notorious for letting product sit around way too long before using.


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## Lindy (Sep 23, 2010)

Hazel said:
			
		

> Fungal infections are horrible! I've had them twice and I've no idea how I got them. (Although I can confidently say it wasn't from anything I made    ) I had to go to the doctor to get a prescription strength cream to clear them up because the OTC creams didn't help.



This would be a good strong reason to use a preservative.

The only time you can get away from a preservative is if you are making a product that is oils only, no water, no aloe vera extract, no liquid of any kind.  At that point yeah it can be safe as long as you are using something other than you fingers to remove it from the jar.


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## AZ Soaper (Sep 24, 2010)

Why do you think they tel you to throw out your mascara and foundation after 6 months. Remember this is going on your face, around your eyes and mouth. Water is nasty even distilled. Don't you remember science class in high school where you cultured water? Even distilled grew thing. Probally just hand comtamination but even in a sterile environment bugs can grow. And I am a nurse and seen some REALLY NASTY fungal eye infections. IMO!


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## Mayren (Sep 24, 2010)

Just an opinion :

Your right to use or not use preservative is your right.
No problem.

When I post to a public forum, it's my experience that
I have to be open to a broad range of replies, even if
I react to those replies in a positive or negative way.
In a sense I am asking a question so what I get in 
return is what I asked for.... sorta, in hopes that the
returns are civil etc etc. 

A point :

Many Soap& Bath & Body making forums
will have people replying with Preservatives and Safety
advice whether you directly asked for it or not and 
I'm okay with this.  I am okay with this because this
IS a public forum that is searchable by Google.
I want to know that any newbie running amuck can
find info on these topics with  some kind of warning
to make them think about looking deeper before 
slapping together some product that could hurt others. 

Just my 2 Cents.


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## lovetosoap (Sep 27, 2010)

http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... rs_of.html

Lotion users went blind using products that did not have adequate preservatives in them.  I have a son that was born legally blind. Its a horrible condition to deal with. Why self inflict it?


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## lovetosoap (Sep 27, 2010)

http://www.natalchemy.com/what-are-parabens.aspx

Here is an article oking the use of parabens. There are many preservatives to choose from with pros and cons of each. But they need to be used.


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## seaWA (Sep 27, 2010)

But both of those articles indicate the _dangers _of parabens, they don't "ok" them. And the second one explains how the company uses natural preservatives instead, and that the need for preservatives is caused by the need for a long shelf life. 

I think I'm being seen as argumentative because I'm not looking for advice at all, really--I'm looking for information. If I saw anything trustworthy that indicated people could go blind from using a lotion without preservatives within a month or so of it being made, of course I'd use preservatives (or not make water-based lotions at all); it's all a question of balancing known and unknown risks (of preservatives vs. their lack). As I've said before, I've used commercial products all my life without any apparent harm; I'm simply trying to understand what really is and isn't necessary, when I'm going to the trouble of making things myself (food or cosmetics), which I  do partly in order to know what goes into things.


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## lovetosoap (Sep 27, 2010)

If you do not want to believe us, then you do a search. There are many articles of people going blind using products without preservatives. I just think you already have your own mind made up and choose not to believe what you see.

As I said, there are many, types of preservative. Many do not like parabens---that does not mean preservatives are unnecessary.

And if you do not want to believe what you read, get your product tested 6 months to a year after making it. Maybe that will change your mind.


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## Lindy (Sep 27, 2010)

There are preservatives that do not contain parabens - Germal Plus & Optiphen are 2.  There are others.

As I've said before, as well as everybody else - if you want information it has been provided but if you are looking to prove that you are right you're not going to find it here.

Seriously, people here are trying to help you, it just seems that you want to someone to say you're right and that you don't have to use preservatives. Unfortunately you're not going to find that here.  You are getting opinions from people who make this all the time and not one of is big business, but rather crafters who want our products to be safe for us, our families and for those of us who sell, for our customers.  We've done the research, we've spent the time and the money to create the best products we can, so we are sharing this information freely, use it as you will, or not.....


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## seaWA (Sep 27, 2010)

This is my last reply, because I'm not sure the conversation is useful for any of us...

It's not about right or wrong; it's perfectly legitimate for us all to come down in different places on the spectrum of what worries us (the various modern preservatives vs. what we might get if we don't use them). I only wanted help in gathering information that would help me make that decision for myself. Nothing I've learned here has led me to the research I was hoping to see: what exactly we need to worry about, in terms of infections that might be caused by a lotion, and how long we can reasonably expect a product to last (days vs. weeks vs. months) before it is genuinely in danger of causing such an infection. 

Again, thanks to those who wanted to help.


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## Hazel (Sep 27, 2010)

lovetosoap said:
			
		

> http://www.natalchemy.com/what-are-parabens.aspx
> 
> Here is an article oking the use of parabens. There are many preservatives to choose from with pros and cons of each. But they need to be used.



I find this article a  little disturbing. Whoever wrote this isn't advocating the use of parabans, he or she is promoting products that are for sale on the website. It's another case of scaring the uninformed consumer into buying their products because they're "natural". 

I know I'm not very knowledgeable about a lot of ingredients but I do try to read several sources before making a decision. I take exception to several comments in this article.

I have to go to work so I'll have to come back later to discuss this further.


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## Sunny (Sep 27, 2010)

I can't think of a better reason to use a preservative than to guard against ... everything. You have no idea what you're guarding against, there's no way to know every single thing.

Fungi, bacteria, who cares? It WILL be in there, and when your health is at stake, why not do what you can to prevent harm to yourself?

I really don't know how to say it any differently than everyone else already has... preservatives are necessary to protect our health, our skin, our bodies. There are a lot of things that can grow in there.

Now I realize the OP has apparently left   I'm just adding my two cents in case someone else comes along later to read this.


(Do you have a cat? 
Did your cat shed a hair onto your bath towel? 
Did you dry yourself with that bath towel? 
Did you then apply your preservative-less cream?! 
YOU HAVE RINGWORM NOW!!
... I'm being a little dramatic here... just kidding around... Someone needs to laugh at this thread, it's getting too heavy!)


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## Hazel (Sep 27, 2010)

tasha,

You're absolutely right. This is getting too serious so what do you get when you cross a telephone with a night crawler? 

Ringworm! har har har   





yeah...I'm that tired.


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## Mayren (Oct 2, 2010)

you guys are cute.  it's a good thread to keep around.
The warnings need to be seen and the wise and sage
advice seen along with it to balance.


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## Sunny (Oct 2, 2010)

Hazel said:
			
		

> so what do you get when you cross a telephone with a night crawler?
> 
> Ringworm! har har har



LOL!
love it!!    :shock:


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## chefinblue (Nov 19, 2010)

I know I'm jumping in late but I ran into this (http://www.100percentpure.com/) company recently and they may prove to be a good example of true all natural cosmetics..I'm sure their ingredient costs are high but they also sell through QVC. My husband and I used to import a topical pet product thet almost got on QVC but they wanted more accredited testing done in the US since it was from the UK. It passed numerous trials in the UK and Europe and was all natural and very safe but they pushed for more since it was a topical. In the end the manufacture didn't want to spend the money to bother with the extra testing.

Just mentioning this to show how stringent QVC is before they will sell a topical product to pets let alone to people..so if this stuff is selling there the natural preservatives must be working.


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## chefinblue (Nov 19, 2010)

*Great article on natural preservatives*

Obviously finding the right mix, the right combination of elements and a lot of trial and error would have to go into effect to make creating a truly natural and safe product a possibility..but this is a great article non-the less..

http://www.personalcaremagazine.com/Sto ... ?Story=488


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## paillo (Nov 19, 2010)

Hazel said:
			
		

> lovetosoap said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i find this article disturbing too. a lot of innuendo about parabens and no real info on what makes the seller's products 'better' or 'safer'.

i don't like parabens and avoid them -- known or suspected estrogen disruptors scare me -- but i totally would not make products containing water without some kind of preservative.

that said, there are a number of new and not-so-new 'natural' preservatives on the market. i've used leucidal liquid with good results, and am currently trying tinosan. aspen bark extract is another i plan to try. (lotioncrafter carries and has good descriptions.) 

i make serums for myself, friends and family, with preservatives. i don't sell them, because i don't have the money or wherewithal to do the product testing over a long enough period of time to tell me if they're truly 'safe' after six months...

there's a lot of misinformation about what is a preservative, antibacterial, antimicrobial, etc. for example, vitamin e and GSE are two substances commonly mistaken for preservatives. they're not!


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## Hazel (Nov 19, 2010)

paillo said:
			
		

> i don't like parabens and avoid them -- known or suspected estrogen disruptors scare me -- but i totally would not make products containing water without some kind of preservative.



What's not mentioned is that parabens only create a minimal estrogenic effect. There are other ingredients (like soy) plus our own hormones that produce more estrogen or cause estrogenic effects.

I'm not very smart but I do try to read both sides of this controversy. I also was anti-paraben a few years back until I started doing research. I noticed that the anti-paraben articles either didn't present scientific proof or the information from previous studies have been misquoted or taken out of context; for example, the original 33 page report on the study which first noted low traces of parabens in breast tissue. This is the one which has mainly been taken out of context and has been used to fuel the controversy of parabens versus "natural" preservatives. Everyone has their own agenda. I don't like being scared into buying or not buying  products.

Give me the facts and I'll make up my own mind on whether something is safe or not or if your product is better than someone else's. Don't attempt to frighten me in order to increase your profits. 

That being said - I don't have a problem with people wanting to minimize their exposure to parabens. I use both paraben based and paraben free preservatives. I use what I feel is best for each product. Of course, I don't sell so I can't say how effective "paraben free" is as a marketing benefit.

ETA - I believe there are some essential oils that also can create estrogenic effects. I'll have to look this up.


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## carebear (Nov 19, 2010)

Nicely put, Hazel.


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## carebear (Nov 19, 2010)

FYI - for an anhydrous product like a water-free scrub there are not preservative options without parabens.  (yes you need a preservative even if it's water free because of the likelihood/possibility of contamination with water from wet hands or the shower)

So to make a safe anhydrous scrub you need to either use salt instead of sugar, or suck it up and use the parabens.


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## dagmar88 (Nov 20, 2010)

Hazel said:
			
		

> paillo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really don't understand where the soy thing has come from; numerous studies have shown breast cancer rates in China & Japan are incredibly lower than the USA and The Netherlands (we have about the highest risk globally); what do you think Asian woman eat on a daily base?


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## Hazel (Nov 20, 2010)

dagmar88 said:
			
		

> Hazel said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I was saying that soy also creates an estrogenic effect in the body. 

Soy - let's not open *that *can of worms!  :roll: Please...one controversy at a time or my head's going to explode.  

Actually, who knows if the lower rate of breast cancer is from them eating soy. Couldn't it be a combination of environmental factors, exercise and nutrition? I don't know. I'd have to research it and that's not going to happen any time soon. My doctor did tell me to limit my soy intake because of the possibility of estrogen driven cancer. (I think that was the term he used.) I was nodding my head and thinking "Yeah, you're worried about my soy intake while I'm still overweight, don't exercise enough and smoke. Like I'm worried about eating too much soy."


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## paillo (Nov 20, 2010)

carebear said:
			
		

> FYI - for an anhydrous product like a water-free scrub there are not preservative options without parabens.  (yes you need a preservative even if it's water free because of the likelihood/possibility of contamination with water from wet hands or the shower)
> 
> So to make a safe anhydrous scrub you need to either use salt instead of sugar, or suck it up and use the parabens.



yes, after running a bunch of searches i see there are no paraben-free preservatives i could find listed that are suitable for anhydrous products. so what do you all typically use for preservatives, for, say, scrubs? i'd rather use parabens than make a for-sure unsafe product.

talk about overkill, though. my well-meaning mother sent me a jar of the older Stryvectin (they make another version now without parabens, i wonder how). it has not one, but EIGHT parabens! i use my home-made Vitamin C serum with great results and have no interest in switching to an expensive product with a number of ickies in it, parabens aside.


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## Hazel (Nov 20, 2010)

I use Liquipar but once it's gone, I might switch to a different one. I'd have to look around and compare preservatives before I make a decision. I might find the Liquipar is the best for anhydrous products.


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## paillo (Nov 20, 2010)

Hazel said:
			
		

> dagmar88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



hazel, i love your candor  i'm gonna do a bunch of research myself. i work in environmental health sciences, but in the communications branch, not the science. the soy factor bumfuzzles me at this point, but i think it's an important consideration for us americans with otherwise bad diets and health habits, and other confounding factors like too much plastic in our environments. going away now to research more of what the science says... but it's GREAT to hear what individual responses are, keep them coming!!!!


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## Hazel (Nov 21, 2010)

Well thanks! But what else can I say? I know I have really bad habits and I know what I should be doing for better health. So for me to fuss about questionable additives would be hypocritical. Plus I've already had years and years (won't say how many  :wink:  ) of exposure to chemicals which people are alleging to be hazardous. I've finally learned to question what I read instead of accepting everything I read as factual. Who's written this article? Is this person an accredited expert? What's this person's purpose for writing this info? Is it to educate the reader? Or is to sell something?

It's very easy to write something and post it on the Internet. I could write something based on heresay or misquotes, post it online and I'm positive some people would read it and believe it. They'd never bother to research further to see if the information is correct, if I was an expert or a motivated seller. (Smurfs are evil and hazardous to your health! If you watch them, your nose will turn blue so buy my cream because it's natural and then your nose will never turn blue!)    

Admittedly, I do try to minimize some exposure to chemicals but mainly for the animals. They've all been know to chew on odd things plus two of them can open cupboard doors. Clever, crafty critters!   

However, if there is a legitimite scientific study which does prove parabens *are *hazardous then I would stop using them. It's hard because there's so much information out there. Who are you going to trust?


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## foresthome (Apr 10, 2011)

*Substitute for stearic acid*

I have been using stearic acid in my lotion recipes, and they have been turning out great. I just was reading the actual specs on stearic acid and found out that it is an animal product. I was trying to keep my soaps and lotions, totally vegetarian. I am using emulsifying wax, do I really need the stearic acid also. Is there something that I can substitute for stearic acid?


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## citymouse (Apr 19, 2011)

*Re: Substitute for stearic acid*



			
				foresthome said:
			
		

> I have been using stearic acid in my lotion recipes, and they have been turning out great. I just was reading the actual specs on stearic acid and found out that it is an animal product. I was trying to keep my soaps and lotions, totally vegetarian. I am using emulsifying wax, do I really need the stearic acid also. Is there something that I can substitute for stearic acid?



http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item.php?item_id=119

this site's stearic is derived from palm, i believe that many companies are sourcing their stearic from palm but you should check with your vendor to be sure.  Stearic acid is a thickener though and not a preservative.

hth

Erin


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## AZ Soaper (May 1, 2011)

Please remember where you are putting the lotion. Even if it is just on your hands, you still put your hands on your mouth and eyes. I am a nurse and I have seen some really nasty infections, bacterial, fungal, etc. How long does it take bread to mold? Have you ever pulled a container from the back of the frige that had been overlooked. What was in it? Would you eat it, even if it looked ok? Lotion get absorbed into the skin and you do have a layer of flora to protect you but in your stomach you have vial stomach acid. So I say if you won't eat it, don't put it on your skin.


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