# Vegan / Vegetarian Choices



## joy. (Oct 6, 2016)

I started phasing out meat about 10 years ago when I got my first pet chickens. They each had their own little personalities and I just couldn't eat chicken anymore. After I got my first goats about 6 years ago, all other forms of meat had to go. They are full of personality, kind of like dogs. They feel happiness, fear, pain, contentment, anger, and excitement. They have their own little language, love their herd members, and miss them when they're separated. For me, I just can't justify killing and eating a living being when there are other options available.

I ended up with chickens in the first place for humane reasons. Most of the animals raised in factory farms (eg: the "normal" meat and eggs you buy at the grocery store) suffer terribly. I won't go into details, because it's disturbing and you can google it.  Sadly, I find most people choose to ignore the suffering of food-producing animals, and I'm not sure why. I don't have a problem with humanely raised meat, eggs and dairy. A family member raises humane turkeys that have a great life roaming a grassy pasture, have great food and shelter, and are butchered humanely. I've reserved one for Thanksgiving for the meat-eaters in the family. I personally won't choose to eat it, but I can respect others' choice to do so. I cannot respect the choice to buy meat or eggs that come from factory farms. 

Reducing or eliminating meat from your diet may be a good idea anyways:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/vegan-diet-cancer_b_2250052.html


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## fuzz-juzz (Oct 6, 2016)

As a main family cook and provider I do personally try and reduce our animal products intake or change how I shop for same.
Not just for cruelty and health reasons but also because of their environmental impact.
I try to make at least one or two meat free dinners per week.
I am aware that producing one burger costs a large amount of precious water, not to mention fuel etc to get it to my store. Same applies to vegan/vegetarian products, there is so much water involved in producing the same, plants aren't really growing out of thin air. It's false to think, that vegan/vegetarian diet has less impact on the environment.
I'm not supporting cruel raising of animals, it's something that's grown out of control and all it's all wrong. Partly because of profits and partly to be to supply large amount of meat/egg products to hungry population. We can all make the choices to reduce meat intake, refuse to buy cruelly raised meat etc... changes CAN happen. Few of the Australian supermarkets aren't selling caged eggs anymore because they were boycotted for a long time.
Now, while I respect other opinion and choices I am glad somebody on the other side is trying to respect mine. 
Many vegans/vegetarians are trying to convince us otherwise. I on the other hand, won't ever come up to a vegan and say: "why don't you eat a steak or a burger, it's good for you bla bla". It's YOUR personal choice and your way of life, it's got NOTHING to do with me. My best childhood friend is vegan, while she was trying to convince me to go over to "her side" I never commented on how she should go back to eating animal products. I respect her way of thinking and her way of life, but I'm really getting tired of almost every single vegan on FB, Youtube, blogs etc doing the same.

I find all the animals cute and cuddly etc., but when it comes to differentiating animal for food and pets I can safely do so. I was raised with animals and they were always raised beautifully, when the time came, they were killed and eaten with respect. I can't really compare pig and a pet cat, some draw correlation or similarity there, yes they are animals, but one is food one is the pet. 
I choose to eat animal products, because, that's how humans evolved, that's how we lived for thousands years, that's how our bodies are designed. Cavemen didn't eat vegetarian diet compensated with tones of vitamins and supplements. But again, if someone made up their choice, has time and money to invest in vegan/vegetarian diet, all fine by me.


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## mx5inpenn (Oct 6, 2016)

joy. said:


> I started phasing out meat about 10 years ago when I got my first pet chickens. They each had their own little personalities and I just couldn't eat chicken anymore. After I got my first goats about 6 years ago, all other forms of meat had to go. They are full of personality, kind of like dogs. They feel happiness, fear, pain, contentment, anger, and excitement. They have their own little language, love their herd members, and miss them when they're separated. For me, I just can't justify killing and eating a living being when there are other options available.
> 
> I ended up with chickens in the first place for humane reasons. Most of the animals raised in factory farms (eg: the "normal" meat and eggs you buy at the grocery store) suffer terribly. I won't go into details, because it's disturbing and you can google it.  Sadly, I find most people choose to ignore the suffering of food-producing animals, and I'm not sure why. I don't have a problem with humanely raised meat, eggs and dairy. A family member raises humane turkeys that have a great life roaming a grassy pasture, have great food and shelter, and are butchered humanely. I've reserved one for Thanksgiving for the meat-eaters in the family. I personally won't choose to eat it, but I can respect others' choice to do so. I cannot respect the choice to buy meat or eggs that come from factory farms.
> 
> Reducing or eliminating meat from your diet may be a good idea anyways:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/vegan-diet-cancer_b_2250052.html



As stated in a previous thread, I grew up raising animals for food and  in a family of hunters. We had a pig named Sally at one time, my baby  brother raised her as a 4H project.  She was well cared for, actually  rather spoiled.  But her purpose was food.  She had a good life and when  it was time for her to be butchered, it was done as humanely as  possible.  I would have considered it a problem to let anything go to  waste unnecessarily.  I live in an area (the one I grew up in) with lots  of farms and the option to buy locally raised meats and eggs from  reputable sources that I know don't treat their animals cruelly.  

I  actually could live quite happily without eating meat for the most part.  I  wouldn't want to live without lard in my soap tho.  I have 2 sisters  that go through vegetarian spurts, they have no issue using my soaps.   They know the waste product being used is better for the environment.   And they aren't consuming it, so it doesn't violate their principles.  

My  issue with your comments on the other thread was about the seeming lack  of respect for others' choices.  I am always bothered by a group or  person, whether religious, cultural, or other, expressing their opinion  about their belief being the "right" way and failing to realize that  what is good for them is not good for everyone, nor should it be  expected to be.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 7, 2016)

People tend to think of animals being that much higher than plants because of how they react to certain things. But plant a seed upside down and then roots will still go around the seed to grow downward and the stem will go around the seed to grow upwards, toward the sun. A plant will lean toward the sun, even changing position in one day. 

While these reactions are more developed in many animals, it's still the same - a base instinct reaction. What makes a chicken then a "living being" and a plant not?


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## newbie (Oct 7, 2016)

You should read about the very complex and extensive communication systems that trees have. They recognize their kin, other trees that sprang from their own seeds, and will preferentially send them nutrients, although every tree is intimately and extensively tied to every other tree in its vicinity. Their communication system is compared to our own neural networks. Does that mean we should never use wood products? 

All plants communicate, respond, and have more to them that we generally acknowledge. They are different from us but no less alive for all that. We eat them without thinking about it. 

It can get very complicated quickly when you think about it.


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## earlene (Oct 7, 2016)

As a personal choice I stopped eating meat about 17 years ago.  It's nothing I expect any of my family to do and I still cook meat for my husband at home and occasionally for other family when traveling.  

If I could afford a personal chef who did the shopping and the preparation, and if I lived in an area where it would be feasible to do, I would be a raw vegan.  I did the raw vegan thing for about 3 months and it's not that easy to do without a wide variety of available ingredients.  It was actually easier to do while I was traveling than when I was at home, because I was traveling where there was more variety of produce.  Where I live fresh produce is limited.

Anyway, I chose to become a lacto-ovo vegetarian (grains, fruits, legumes, vegetables, seeds, nuts, eggs, and dairy.)  My only exception to that is that I will eat real Caesar dressing on Caesar Salad if it is available in a restaurant.  Other than that, it is the only exception I have ever made to my vegetarian diet since I started.

As far as making soap with animal fats, up until recently I have not done because I just do not use animal fats in cooking, so did not have them in the house.  BUT, I did use whatever soap I bought without considering if it was made with tallow or lard.  It never bothered me if the soap I bought at the store was made with animal fat. So in theory it shouldn't bother me now.  

I started making soap with lard for other family members originally to see what it was like for soaping, and because since I have no problem cooking meat for carnivores, why should it bother me to make soap using animal fats?  That is me, not anyone else.  Just me.  Anyway, I do see that soap with lard does make a harder bar.  So far I have only tested it myself by washing my hands after trimming the soap, but it's too early to have an opinion as yet.  (No, I do not taste test meat containing foods, if you are curious.)  I don't much like the odor, that I can assure you, neither while making the soap, nor while it is gelling, nor while it is curing.  I have found that FO's do help with that, but the lard odor is still there early in the cure and I don't like it.  But then I have a sensitive nose.

Am I going to bath with lard soap?  I am undecided at this point.  I really like most of the soaps I have made prior to trying the lard, so it seems to me that I have no real reason to use it at this point.

BTW, my favorite hand washing soap is Egg Soap, which includes added egg yolks in the recipe.  One of these days I'll make some using my SIL's duck eggs because she also likes the Egg Soap and she raises ducks.  I'd much rather make soap with them than eat them, but apparently duck eggs taste really good to some people.

Regarding people who try to press their agenda on others regarding dietary choices, I get more of that from meat eaters than I ever got from non-meat eaters.  SO many people have challenged me and attempted to lecture me about what they believe to be an unhealthy dietary decision on my part.  My doctor went so far as to have blood work done to try and convince me that my diet was playing havoc with my nutritional status.  He was surprised to discover that my numbers are all good, except for vitamin D and that is not at all unusual even in meat eaters.  

Anyway my doctor is satisfied that I do eat well enough to meet all nutritional needs after all, so I was happy to have been able to convince someone with proof that my dietary choice is right for me.  For the most part I avoid discussing my dietary choices unless I am in a restaurant and need to ask questions regarding the menu, as it just seems to bother some people.  In fact I have a cousin who adamantly believes vegetarianism is deadly and is quite vocal about it whenever the topic is mentioned in his hearing.  I just don't participate and often leave the room if the discussion is broached when he is around.  It's not worth the aggravation, especially if I am trying to enjoy a pleasant meal.  (This only happens every few years at family reunions, so not too terribly awful.)  I also have a nephew with Asperger's who adamantly argues (about anything really) that I cannot call myself a vegetarian because I eat eggs and cheese.  But that's his Asperger's talking.


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## IrishLass (Oct 7, 2016)

earlene said:


> My doctor went so far as to have blood work done to try and convince me that my diet was playing havoc with my nutritional status. He was surprised to discover that my numbers are all good, except for vitamin D and that is not at all unusual even in meat eaters.


 
Alas, such was not the case for me. I was a vegetarian for 7 years- (6 months of which I was 100% vegan/raw food-only), but as it turned out it did not play well with my body chemistry, no matter how badly I wanted it to. 

My doctor situation was a little different than yours, though. Being vegetarian-friendly, he was very supportive of my decision to go vegetarian, but cautioned me that a vegetarian diet, although wonderfully healthy for some people, was not compatible with everyone's body chemistry- which incidentally went in one ear and out the other with me at the time- but to be on the safe side, I agreed to have him monitor my blood-work periodically, and as it turned out, I'm so glad I did. 

To make a long story short, my body was just not able to synthesize/absorb enough vegetable-based protein for it to be able to keep functioning properly, no matter how much concentrated veggie protein I ate and/or what myriad of different variables we tried. Trust me, I tried everything and tried very hard, but it was a losing battle. My blood-work numbers gradually got worse and worse over that 7 year period and my weight got dangerously low enough that my family and friends started voicing their concerns to me. 

Pretty much what was happening was that my protein-starved body started cannibalizing itself for protein, and I began to experience weird symptoms in different parts of my body. At the urging of my doc I eventually made the reluctant decision to gradually re-introduced meat back into my diet, which thankfully turned things around and caused things to function normally in my body again, and my blood-work finally started coming back with good numbers (and they continue to remain good with my omnivore diet). 

At the very beginning of my 7-year sojourn into vegetarianism, I admit that my attitude was a bit of an annoyingly cocky, pro-vegetarianism-for-one-and-all type of attitude, and no one could convince me of any other mindset, but the school of hard knocks had its way with me and taught me that my doc was right- vegetarianism is not compatible with _everyone's_ body chemistry. 

My revised attitude is that if folks want to be vegetarian or vegan or carnivores or omnivores, that's their choice and I have no bone to pick with them- it's their personal business not mine- and by the same token what I eat is my own business, not theirs. After all, I'm not privy to their personal medical records/history and how their body chemistry responds to things, and they aren't privy to mine.

For what it's worth, I still eat lots of veggies, but I make sure to eat a good helping of meat, too.




			
				joy said:
			
		

> I cannot respect the choice to buy meat or eggs that come from factory farms


. 

What about those that don't have access to more humanely grown meat or eggs, or cannot afford the higher prices of such to feed themselves or their families? 


IrishLass


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## lsg (Oct 7, 2016)

We live on a farm and we grow our animals for sale and for food.  As long as our animals are given a good life until the time they are slaughtered, I have no qualms.  DH and I were both raised on farms, so we were used to animals being used as protein.  We have our own eggs and milk.  My milk cows each have a name and personality.  They come when I call them, so I don't think they are afraid of any ill treatment.  If you knew what grain farmers poured into the soil to raise soybeans, corn, wheat etc., you wouldn't want to eat grain either.


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## TeresaT (Oct 7, 2016)

joy. said:


> I started phasing out meat about 10 years ago when I got my first pet chickens. They each had their own little personalities and I just couldn't eat chicken anymore. After I got my first goats about 6 years ago, all other forms of meat had to go. They are full of personality, kind of like dogs. They feel happiness, fear, pain, contentment, anger, and excitement. They have their own little language, love their herd members, and miss them when they're separated. For me, I just can't justify killing and eating a living being when there are other options available.
> 
> I ended up with chickens in the first place for humane reasons. Most of the animals raised in factory farms (eg: the "normal" meat and eggs you buy at the grocery store) suffer terribly. I won't go into details, because it's disturbing and you can google it.  Sadly, I find most people choose to ignore the suffering of food-producing animals, and I'm not sure why. I don't have a problem with humanely raised meat, eggs and dairy. A family member raises humane turkeys that have a great life roaming a grassy pasture, have great food and shelter, and are butchered humanely. I've reserved one for Thanksgiving for the meat-eaters in the family. I personally won't choose to eat it, but I can respect others' choice to do so. *I cannot respect the choice to buy meat or eggs that come from factory farms. *
> 
> *Reducing or eliminating meat from your diet may be a good idea anyways:* http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/vegan-diet-cancer_b_2250052.html



Once again, your condescending, better-than-thou attitude is showing.  There are people in this country that cannot afford to buy fresh fruits and vegetables, let alone _organic_ fruits and vegetables.  How the heck are they supposed to buy "humanely raised" meat, dairy and eggs?  They are struggling to purchase  crappy ground beef that is 20% fat to begin with.  They're buying chicken wings because they cannot afford chicken breasts.  There are things known as "food deserts" and "urban blight."  Ever hear of them?  This is one of the richest nations on the face of the earth and every single day all across America food is thrown out.  Perfectly good food.  Perfectly edible food that can save a  family from starving.  Instead of throwing the food away, grocery stores and restaurants should be able to donate that to food banks, shelters and other institutions that provide food for homeless and low-income families.  But they can't and/or won't.  Because this great nation has laws against it.  Yep.  Congress would rather see the food thrown away than given away.  Because that's America.  

I don't need you to tell me how great vegetarianism is and how it's going to save me from cancer.  I don't need PETA to tell me why eating meat or wearing fur is murder.  What I need is for someone to stand up and say wasting food is flat out wrong and start feeding the people of this nation that don't have the food they need.  Share the love.  Share the food.  Share the wealth.  No one in America should go to bed hungry.  And no one in America should be sleeping on the streets or in cars.  Yet they do.  EVERY SINGLE DAY.  I am sure people at food banks and homeless shelters do not care if their food is "humanely raised" or organic.  I'm sure they're only thinking, "Thank God I get to eat today."  

I'm done.


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## BrewerGeorge (Oct 7, 2016)

This thread may get me into trouble; I've never yet voiced any controversial opinions here.

First, I should say that I have plenty of respect for vegetarianism as a lifestyle.  It can be done (for most) easily and healthfully with dairy and/or eggs.  I have four daughters, currently aged 29 down through to 15, and every single one of them has decided somewhere in their middle teens that they want to be vegetarian.  So far that phase passed in two, one is still to young to tell, and it has only stuck with the oldest who is vegan.

However, I have no similar respect for veganism.  To put it mildly, I consider it a First World conceit. (Yes, my oldest daughter is vegan; we have just agreed to disagree and don't talk about that anymore.) The fact that there is not one single traditional diet based solely on vegetable products in all the world tells me all I need to know, but science has reaffirmed that it is very difficult to be a healthy vegan _without_ 20th century technological support and supplementation.  The primary concerns are vitamins D2/D3, B12, and the amino acids lysine, tryptophan, methionine, and phenylalanine See here for an overview of the care, time, and money required to obtain and eat healthfully as a vegan - and compare that to simply eating an egg or some cheese.

Now that I've put my foot in it, let me ask a less confrontational question:  As parents, what have you done (or think you would do) with a minor child who declared himself vegetarian/vegan in an omnivore household?  Does age matter in how you react?  For instance, I handled all four of my girls teen bouts with indifference and some minor accommodation.  "I do the cooking, and we're having _this_ for dinner, but you're welcome not to eat it or eat peanut butter sandwich or whatever."  My accommodations would be things like - say - buttering corn or potatoes at tableside rather than in the kitchen.  However, I don't think I would have allowed a child under 10 to eat separately from us.  Conversely, I fully accommodate my nearly-30, adult daughter's diet when she's around (though I don't like it) and will make entirely vegan meals.  I'm a darn good vegan cook, too.   It's all about the _umami_.


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## IrishLass (Oct 7, 2016)

BrewerGeorge said:


> This thread may get me into trouble; I've never yet voiced any controversial opinions here.


 
No worries- you're good. 




			
				BrewerGeorge said:
			
		

> Now that I've put my foot in it, let me ask a less confrontational question: As parents, what have you done (or think you would do) with a minor child who declared himself vegetarian/vegan in an omnivore household? Does age matter in how you react?


 
Based on what happened to me when I went vegetarian and vegan as an adult, if they were _my_ minors that wanted to go vegetarian, I would firmly put my foot down and say no and give them an education based on the very real and truthful evidence that in spite of all the anti-meat hype out there, not all people do well on a vegetarian diet. If they still insisted on harping on it, _since they are growing minors that I'm responsible for and whose bodies are still developing_, I would tell them it is out of the question until they are 16 when we will bring it up with our family doctor. If he gives the green light _and_ we set something up to have their blood work consistently monitored periodically, I will agree to it. But if at any point between 16 and adulthood their blood work shows that things are on a downhill spiral and every adjustment we try isn't working, they are going back on a meat diet until they are no longer minors and I'm no longer legally responsible for their well-being. 


IrishLass


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 7, 2016)

I think it's a very valid point. Only with modern means can someone have vegetables of enough types all year round, plus additional intakes from supplements or processed products


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## lionprincess00 (Oct 7, 2016)

newbie said:


> You should read about the very complex and extensive communication systems that trees have. They recognize their kin, other trees that sprang from their own seeds, and will preferentially send them nutrients, although every tree is intimately and extensively tied to every other tree in its vicinity. Their communication system is compared to our own neural networks. Does that mean we should never use wood products?
> 
> All plants communicate, respond, and have more to them that we generally acknowledge. They are different from us but no less alive for all that. We eat them without thinking about it.
> 
> It can get very complicated quickly when you think about it.



I thought exactly of this as I was reading the op! Here is a good example of communication between trees warning their neighbors of danger, telling other trees to reduce water consumption in drought, etc etc. There was some online news articles recently on this subject as well.

Video about trees from the bbc
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/37365079


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## fuzz-juzz (Oct 7, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Once again, your condescending, better-than-thou attitude is showing.  There are people in this country that cannot afford to buy fresh fruits and vegetables, let alone _organic_ fruits and vegetables.  How the heck are they supposed to buy "humanely raised" meat, dairy and eggs?  They are struggling to purchase  crappy ground beef that is 20% fat to begin with.  They're buying chicken wings because they cannot afford chicken breasts.  There are things known as "food deserts" and "urban blight."  Ever hear of them?  This is one of the richest nations on the face of the earth and every single day all across America food is thrown out.  Perfectly good food.  Perfectly edible food that can save a  family from starving.  Instead of throwing the food away, grocery stores and restaurants should be able to donate that to food banks, shelters and other institutions that provide food for homeless and low-income families.  But they can't and/or won't.  Because this great nation has laws against it.  Yep.  Congress would rather see the food thrown away than given away.  Because that's America.
> 
> I don't need you to tell me how great vegetarianism is and how it's going to save me from cancer.  I don't need PETA to tell me why eating meat or wearing fur is murder.  What I need is for someone to stand up and say wasting food is flat out wrong and start feeding the people of this nation that don't have the food they need.  Share the love.  Share the food.  Share the wealth.  No one in America should go to bed hungry.  And no one in America should be sleeping on the streets or in cars.  Yet they do.  EVERY SINGLE DAY.  I am sure people at food banks and homeless shelters do not care if their food is "humanely raised" or organic.  I'm sure they're only thinking, "Thank God I get to eat today."
> 
> I'm done.



Amen to this.

I had pretty much the same thought but I didn't want to sound too harsh.
While some cry over chickens and lambs no one seems to cry over many dead that die every day, completely unnecessary.
We turn blind eye to every war, every starving kid in this world but we can't ignore dead chickens?
To solve inhumane in humans we have to have a hard look at ourselves first. Solve our issues and stop being so horrible to each other. Then worry about chickens...
I can't debate about whether I'm going to eat tofu or chicken today meanwhile dozens of kids died from hunger. I just can't... I'm happy to be alive, healthy and with a full tummy. I do my best for this country and this  world but I can't change anything by myself.


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## Kamahido (Oct 7, 2016)

I always do my best to try and see things from both points of view. Oddly enough a friend of mine sent me this video just last week that I think is appropriate at this time...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0O_VYcsIk8[/ame]

This video is made to be satire, however by watching it a vegan who acts this way can see how a non-vegan views their unsolicited opinions. If someone wants to be a vegan, go for it. I am all for personal freedom. But you know that anger you feel when someone challenges your vegan lifestyle... that is how us non-vegans feel when you challenge our lifestyle. Live and let live... that sort of thing.


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## newbie (Oct 7, 2016)

I thought I would post a couple links to a couple of the Wisconsin Public Radio shows they've had recently on trees and their absolutely amazing communication. Truly fascinating. The argument of what we eat and what we use based on our idea of life gets complex in a hurry. 

http://www.ttbook.org/book/thinking-forest-suzanne-simard

http://www.wpr.org/shows/hidden-life-trees


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## Steve85569 (Oct 7, 2016)

My neighbor is vegetarian and some of my friends are either vegetarian or vegan.
I am an omnivore.
Growing up "who are we having for dinner" was an honest question about what was going to be served as the main course. To me it's just part of the circle of life. In order for me to live I will of need kill. Whether it is plants only or plants and animals I will need to take life to keep living.

For me the question is how can I best honor that life ( lives) that have been use up so that I could continue.

Steve


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## Susie (Oct 7, 2016)

IrishLass said:


> No worries- you're good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Speaking as a nurse, this is exactly what I would say to do.  Those young bodies need all their nutrients, and pre-teens and teens often do not eat the best diet if left to their own devices.  Your responsibility is to get them to adulthood as healthy as possible.  

I think at 16 (if they have gone through puberty), with the knowledge and consent of the doctor, they can start learning how to manage a vegetarian diet and learn to cook their own foods that will maintain their health.  It is their choice, after all, and if they want a different food than the rest of the family, they need to cook it.  I absolutely would not cook their special food for them.  They also need to, on a weekly basis, write out their weekly diet and prove to you that all the nutrients are met.  This is their choice, they must learn to manage those nutrients.

Above all, you need to remember that you are not raising children, you are raising future adults.  You must have them start as they mean to go on, or they are going to get into some real trouble nutritionally.


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## CaraBou (Oct 8, 2016)

newbie said:


> You should read about the very complex and extensive communication systems that trees have. They recognize their kin, other trees that sprang from their own seeds, and will preferentially send them nutrients, although every tree is intimately and extensively tied to every other tree in its vicinity. Their communication system is compared to our own neural networks. Does that mean we should never use wood products?
> 
> All plants communicate, respond, and have more to them that we generally acknowledge. They are different from us but no less alive for all that. We eat them without thinking about it.
> 
> It can get very complicated quickly when you think about it.



Plants have no neurological tissues let alone a nervous system; therefore, I disagree with the idea that they have something similar to animal neural networks, if that was meant to imply an ability to feel pain or emotion. Joy was clear that pain, emotion and personality sway her not to eat animals.  She was also clear that this is just a choice, regardless of her tolerance for others who do not decide the same.  

Not picking on you newbie, but ALL organisms respond to their environment, not just plants and animals. It is essential for survival and reproduction.  I'd also say communication, especially when used loosely like it is here, is important for perpetuating species through time.  These are both important mechanisms for adaptation and evolution.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 8, 2016)

At what level do we take it? We often class fear as an emotion but it is in many cases just an instinct. A deer will react to a breaking twig in an instinctual way, not an emotional one. So is it okay to eat deer? Do fish have emotions? I don't think so. They might instinctively recognize the shape that comes to the tank just before the food comes, but that is all.


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## joy. (Oct 11, 2016)

newbie said:


> You should read about the very complex and extensive communication systems that trees have. They recognize their kin, other trees that sprang from their own seeds, and will preferentially send them nutrients, although every tree is intimately and extensively tied to every other tree in its vicinity. Their communication system is compared to our own neural networks. Does that mean we should never use wood products?
> 
> All plants communicate, respond, and have more to them that we generally acknowledge. They are different from us but no less alive for all that. We eat them without thinking about it.
> 
> It can get very complicated quickly when you think about it.



The first thing that popped into my head when I read this:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXIdcA6mlV4[/ame]

But seriously, I do believe we should respect all living things, and try to make sustainable choices. For me, fruitarianism is a bit extreme, but I can respect the choice. 

Studies suggest the earliest humans were actually fruitarians, eating seeds, nuts and fruits that didn't harm the plant. Our jaws, teeth and digestive tracts are designed to primarily eat plant matter with animal proteins being an occasional treat.



IrishLass said:


> What about those that don't have access to more humanely grown meat or eggs, or cannot afford the higher prices of such to feed themselves or their families?
> 
> IrishLass



I think that's one of the main problems with the current system, and it will take enough people caring about the humane treatment of food-producing animals to change the way they are handled and housed in mass-production plants.

In some cases, people just don't know where to look for humane options. I can buy a dozen eggs from healthy, happy, humanely-raised, pasture-roaming chickens on craigslist for less than I'd pay at the grocery store. The "Farm and Garden" section is full of people that raise their own food and have excess to share - milk, eggs, meat, you name it.  Another option is to raise your own milk/eggs/meat, which is generally less expensive. That's why I got chickens in the first place - I wanted humane eggs and didn't know where to get them. Chickens weren't allowed in the neighborhood I lived in at the time, so I got three miniature chickens and they were indoor/outdoor pets. Minis are considered "exotic pets" in many places. Reducing meat intake to a couple times a week or cutting out other items like soda or chips saves enough money to allow more expensive humane meat to be purchased when you do eat it, so that's another option, and a healthier choice. 



TeresaT said:


> I don't need you to tell me how great vegetarianism is and how it's going to save me from cancer.  I don't need PETA to tell me why eating meat or wearing fur is murder.  What I need is for someone to stand up and say wasting food is flat out wrong and start feeding the people of this nation that don't have the food they need.  Share the love.  Share the food.  Share the wealth.  No one in America should go to bed hungry.  And no one in America should be sleeping on the streets or in cars.  Yet they do.  EVERY SINGLE DAY.  I am sure people at food banks and homeless shelters do not care if their food is "humanely raised" or organic.  I'm sure they're only thinking, "Thank God I get to eat today."
> 
> I'm done.



I really didn't want to respond to this- I'm happy to have a polite conversation about this issue, and this comment is not polite. But this attitude is part of the problem, so I'll do my best to respond politely because a response is needed.

Most people are glad when information is shared that shows something causes cancer. Not sure why I need to be yelled at about that. And I didn't say vegetarianism is great, and said nothing about fur. I offered information about the inhumane treatment of animals in typical factory farms, and suggested there are other ways to eat, including humanely raised meat, that don't cause animals to suffer.

There are two separate issues here. I agree, no one should be going hungry. No one should be sleeping on the streets. I do my part to help solve those problems. Abusing animals in factory farms doesn't solve this problem. I wish I had a magical solution, but I don't, other than more people need to care about the issue. I've tried donating extra milk to shelters and they can't accept it because of ridiculous raw milk laws. The laws should change.

But laws regarding the humane treatment of food-producing animals should also change. Just because I care about the treatment of animals doesn't mean I don't care about people, too. But less people actually do care about animals, so someone needs to stand up and speak for them. 

Did you bother googling "factory farms" or look into how chickens, pigs and cows are treated in mass-production facilities and slaughtering plants? It's nauseating. Again, I won't go into details here, but I guarantee if your neighbor did to a dog or cat what's done to these animals, you'd be outraged and they'd be in jail. All I'm saying is that animals have feelings and emotions- they feel pain, they suffer, they're abused and treated inhumanely in the food-production industry, and it's not right. Choosing to ignore the problem because there are other problems in the world is not an excuse.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> At what level do we take it? We often class fear as an emotion but it is in many cases just an instinct. A deer will react to a breaking twig in an instinctual way, not an emotional one.



If everything every animal does is just instinct, what makes you any different? I don't say this in a rude manner, but you can take it to an extreme level either way. Of course some of their behaviors are instinctual, but that doesn't mean they all are. When an animal can clearly experience pain and suffering, I believe it's wrong to cause that. If you want to eat the deer, which probably lived a generally happy life, kill it as quickly and painlessly as possible. That's not what happens in factory farms.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Do fish have emotions? I don't think so. They might instinctively recognize the shape that comes to the tank just before the food comes, but that is all.



I don't know of any studies specifically on fish (though I think they probably do have emotions) but plenty have been done with dogs, including recent studies using MRIs to map their brains. They can process, think, rationalize, problem solve, determine fairness, and feel emotion, including activity in the "love" area of their brains when they hear their person's voice. It's not just about communication - they are capable of thinking on the same level as an average 3 year old human. I don't know of specific studies on livestock, but after living with them I can safely say my goats are more intelligent than my dog, and have just as much personality and emotion.


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## Dahila (Oct 11, 2016)

joy our teeth are designed for meat and veggies,  Early human had harvested the nuts, fruits whatever was available.  Meat was not so often this is why we are design to eat everything.  Back to school and learn what role teeth have.  
Animals are food chain this is the way it is.  I love animals but learned from my family and environment not to dwell on them.  Pet is my dog, cat, even guinea, not the pig.  Pig is a meat.  Of course I would love to have a choice and buy grain feeded, humanly raised meat, but the money for that is not available for me. 
I had similar expierence with the body shutting down due the lack of nutrition.  I was 19 and became vegetarian (mahatma Gandhi had a lot to do with it) when my weight went down to 100 lb with height of 5'4 my family said no!!! I was vegetarian for two years, preparing myself to be vegan...........After I got very sick,  I started slowly getting back on normal food.  When I was young meat was good, better than organic one now.  It took me like 6 months to recover.  I agree with all above about education, and taking supplements,  well most of them is money maker and do not provide much for the body. 
When there is two plates one with meat one vegetarian, I usually pick up the last one.  My husband would not like to be on veggies........... My grandchild like meat,  I cook it and eat it.  I still love nature and animals..........


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## cmzaha (Oct 11, 2016)

Organic is not all that great either. I have a beekeeper vendor friend whom told me a very interesting thing about organic. They put several hives in an "Organic" orange grove and another in a non organic orange grove, a lot of hives in both groves. The scary thing is every bee in the organic grove died. They lost thousands of dollars in bees and products. Organic farms are great for the state, they get thousands of dollars just to certify a small area organic. Another vendor friend that has a huge farm has a few acres designated as "Organic," this is after paying 10k in fees per acre. He still uses the same spray as he uses on the balance of his farm, just at a different schedule and rate. Guess who benefits from Organic farmers, the departments that control it, like anything in our bureaucracy. My granddaughter has chickens whom have the run of the yard if they choose, guess where they choose to stay. In the coop in their nesting boxes, so much for free range chickens. Are these happy chickies, yep they even have polished nails, and love her, but love their nesting boxes. Non-toxic polish if anyone wonders...

I do not put anyone done for their dietary choices, my daughter, the one with the chickens, is a vegetarian for the most part. She does eat a few eggs and a little meat but this is mostly for health reasons, and sadly we still have not been able to get all her crowns done where she has implants. Her Rheumatoid doctor does regular blood work and it does work for her, but her growing 8 yr old is required to eat meat at least a few times during the week. 

Theresa is quite right, many or most in this economy cannot afford to purchase so called humanely raised meat, eggs, milk etc. There was I time I could but anymore, so I have to trust the grocery store to not sell tainted. Who says Craig's list does not have people selling tainted products, I trust very little on Craig's list. I would never buy raw milk, but then I hate milk . Growing up I did have the pleasure of getting butter made from fresh raw cream from a family member that raised cows. I still remember that fresh churned butter and homemade biscuits, but now my butter comes from Costco and so does my mom's whom is 90 yrs old. Wow, how has she lived so long eating meat and produce from the grocery store and Costco...

We are Hunters & Gatherers


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 12, 2016)

That is my point, joy - a dog is one thing. A fish or a chicken is something else. Plus, a domesticated animal verses a wild animal would have different responses. 

I think it was the late great Kurt Kobain that said it's okay to eat fish because they don't have any feelings


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## cherrycoke216 (Oct 12, 2016)

I do hope this does not get me into troubles. Long time lurker, thread post newbie here.

I think people here ( especially these omnivores ) are showing greatest restrain. You called a bunch of people gross, and they are complete stranger to you, and you expect they behave like your nephew? Have a laugh about it?

Then you called Teresa have a attitude problem. I think she doesn't sound " not polite or yelling " to me. It's a psychological response called "fight or flight" when encounter with danger or something you don't like.
( after you make some claims about you don't have "respect" for people who buy mass production meat. So they tell you someone might not have an option here. They'd be grateful for just have a BITE really. )
Yes animal farm can be brutal, if the government and congress don't do a thing about it, show me what can we do as an omnivore? ( other than convert us into vegan/ vegetarian or some other propaganda )

And vegans/ vegetarians do have cancer. It just won't be zero.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/03/29...-diet-changes-human-dna-raising-risk-of-canc/

It's all about moderation.

And on the topic here, I'm omnivore who have loads of homemade whole fruit smoothies( with fruit peels/ skins/ seeds) every morning. ( morning lacto-ovo-vegetarian)I agree someone said "first world conceit "and people getting killed in war is a priority than mass production meat, and also what Teresa said" share the love. Share the food . Share the wealth."
( sad that I cannot " LIKE" the post coz I'm on iPhone app )

It is when you have the bling, than you have the option to skip " mass production anything". Or you have the time and space to raise them yourself. World hunger is worse than you can imagine. And we're just bourgeois / middle class being a snob picking on what's in our dinner plate (or not ).


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## Dahila (Oct 12, 2016)

Cherry thanks ,  I wanted to say it,  We all are very polite here and very tolerant. Vegans are miserable people trying to convert everyone. it is childish.  Teresa is incredible person and she is never impolite, she just tells what she things.  No attitude on her part,  Tolerant and accepting person.  
The tone of Joy post is kind of aggressive, 
Veganism is a trend now it will pass. like all of the diets.  One day you going back to eat meat like everyone else.  I am old and had seen a lot of people like you. Discussion is good though, it is always good to talk 
Just do not judge other people please


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## BrewerGeorge (Oct 12, 2016)

The idea that our canine teeth are made for nuts is specious, too.  Every primate is omnivorous in nature, even if they only supplement their plants with bugs.  

But have you ever seen video of a troop of chimpanzees hunting?  They usually hunt monkeys and eat them raw.


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## Dahila (Oct 12, 2016)

Chimpanzees usually hunt small baboons.   Vegan diet is good for a cow, or even elephant,  Would you feed tiger with nuts)?


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## Susie (Oct 12, 2016)

Primates are omnivores.  Period.  No matter what you say about humans, primates are omnivores. 

TeresaT was being exceedingly polite.  Just because she has an agenda that is not yours does not mean she is not being polite.  

Which is the exact issue here.  Just because we do not agree with you, it does not mean we are being rude, impolite, or anything else bad or wrong.  It means we are stating our opinions.  

You chose the most crude wording possible to introduce your opinion elsewhere, then decided to come here to state your opinion.  I am glad you got it out of someone else's thread, but it does not mean that we are going to agree with you here.  If you only want people to agree with you, you need to go to a vegan forum.


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## Navaria (Oct 12, 2016)

Joy, I noticed something when this first started on the other thread. There was a post about using silk and it not dissolving properly. You made the comment about "when you use silk". You know the silk worms are boiled alive to get that silk right? I use silk as well. Nothing wrong with it. But I do have a problem when you say you have no respect for people who don't use humane animal products when you yourself admit to using the product of a boiled alive insect. Just because you don't actually eat it, doesn't mean you don't consume it. You can't have it both ways. That's hypocritical.


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## cmzaha (Oct 12, 2016)

Navaria said:


> Joy, I noticed something when this first started on the other thread. There was a post about using silk and it not dissolving properly. You made the comment about "when you use silk". You know the silk worms are boiled alive to get that silk right? I use silk as well. Nothing wrong with it. But I do have a problem when you say you have no respect for people who don't use humane animal products when you yourself admit to using the product of a boiled alive insect. Just because you don't actually eat it, doesn't mean you don't consume it. You can't have it both ways. That's hypocritical.


A lot of the Tussah Silk is harvested after the silk moth has emerged, problem is we have no proof the moth is emerged unless we buy cocoons. There are a few methods of killing the moth, one is boiling, another drying in the sun and freeze drying. Freeze drying is probably the most humane way to kill the silk moth. The reason for killing the moth and not letting it escape is because they do not want the silk broken if it is going to be spooled. 
I will mention the silk moth does not lead a great life, they do not fly and are blind, although they are quite pretty. They have one purpose that is to mate and die. So the point of this was if Joy thinks she is purchasing humane silk I would not count on it, or is raising her own silk worms. Unless you have a Mulberry tree raising silk worms is very expensive and much cheaper to buy Tussah Silk. The people harvesting the cocoons need the money and I doubt most care how the cocoon is treated.


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## Navaria (Oct 12, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> The people harvesting the cocoons need the money and I doubt most care how the cocoon is treated.


 
This was my whole point. You don't know. But you know most all the methods used involve killing the silk worm in some way.


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## fuzz-juzz (Oct 12, 2016)

Unless you've been to other's peoples shoes you can't and shouldn't judge someone's choices.
As a child of war I can only thank our chickens and occasional cows head (yes head) and offal that kept us from being hungry.
And in those 8 years of my life I couldn't really choose what I want to eat, it was eat or go hungry. And to this day, I am only picky about few things: celery and licorice haha.
Animals are awesome, they are great source of food, we should respect them by eating less of their products. I doubt anyone follows good old "deck of card" size of meat per serve. Not to mention all the milkshakes, ice creams, cakes etc we have to have in a day. Everything in a moderation is a key, and maybe then, some changes to how and where animals are raised. Reduce the amount we need and animals may not need to be kept in overcrowded and horrible places. And also, refuse to buy from questionable sources. They are small changes, but if all of us can get onto the same idea, it should make a difference.
But animals eat animals. it's the part of the nature, look around you, you wouldn't feed banana or an apple to the tiger etc...
If you have pet animals what do you feed them? I hope it's not vegan diet let's say for cats. It will kill them really fast. I've heard of people doing it and to be honest, THAT is animal abuse.


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