# Making soap the REALLY old fashioned way



## Sharron (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi,

I am new to soap-making and am looking for help from people who have skills making soap the really old fashioned way.  Here's my story...

I am a costumed interpreter at a historic home in Kentucky.  We are developing trade skills, and I am able demonstrate hearth cooking, butter-making, etc, but I would like to be able to do something that not everybody can do.  Soap-making came to mind.

I trained with a lady who makes soap for a "pioneer" type venue, but she uses sodium hydroxide flakes and measures everything with digital scales, etc.  I can't do that since I am trying to replicate the way soap was made in early Kentucky using rainwater, ash, and lard.

I have tried soap-making on my own with no scales, etc.  I collected hardwood ash and put it in a bucket layered with pebbles and straw.  I poured rain and distilled water on the ash and let it drip out slowly over a couple of days.  Then I poured it back in the bucket and let it drip out a second time.  I did use a pH paper to check the pH, and it looked to be about a 10-11 on the scale.  Next, I distilled the lye water over an open fire, boiling about a gallon and a half of lye water down to about 4 cup.  I did the egg and potato test, and both floated.  The egg had about a quarter size sticking out the top of the lye water.

Then I melted 2 cups of lard in a pot (I did use the stove) until it was melted and clear.  The temperature was about 125*.  I heated 3/4 cup lye water to the same temperature, adding about 2 tsp salt into the water to help make the soap harder.  I poured the lye into the melted lard and stirred.  It took about an hour to come to trace, but it got nice and thick.  Then I put it in my mold (I'm still working on building a wooden one), and I'm now waiting for it to get hard.  I'm worried it won't.

I know that most soap made with potash is a softer soap.  If that's the case, and the early settlers would have had soft homemade soap, I'm fine to bring that to my interpretation.  If they did have hard soap made with potash, I'm not sure how to get that without scales, etc.  I know some of my tools are not period correct.  I'm working on that as I practice the soap-making.  I'm not going to sell this soap. It is strictly for educational and demonstration purposes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!



Sharron


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## KiwiMoose (Oct 31, 2019)

Can't help - but love your work!  I went to the Shaker village when I lived in Kentucky : )


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## true blue (Oct 31, 2019)

It'll be interesting to see if anyone here can help you, as we pretty much do everything with sodium/potassium hydroxide and digital scales, too!  but I'm not quite sure what you need help with considering it seems like you've done your research and pretty well 'know' what you're doing. I think at this point, experience will be your best teacher! 

That being said, we use the the hydroxides and scales to make everything 'safe' to today's standards (no lye-heavy soap). The pioneers (and farmers & other rural folks who lived in the 'east' for hundreds of years) were less concerned with modern safety and more concerned with cleaning power. Have you ever used modern superfatted soap to wash dishes or clothes? It doesn't work too well ... you end up with a light layer of fat (grease) on your dishes, and the same on your clothes (you just don't notice it on your clothes until it builds up over time). Not good. (Funny, how our modern sense of 'clean' is different for our bodies vs objects. Fat left on our skin after washing is 'moisturizing' but left on dishes equates to 'not clean'. lol) The lye-heavy soap the pioneers made cleaned dishes and clothes much better. Of course, it wasn't so good for skin, but they managed. No one died from it, I'll bet.  So yeah - I firmly believe that a pioneer who ended up with her yearly or semi-yearly batch of soap 'superfatted' ... considered it inferior, as to it's cleaning power. 
On a related, yet similar note, the reason many women in the 'olden days' preferred to use rainwater when washing their hair was because most everyone used well water. Which usually equates to hard water. Not having water softeners then, the rainwater (a natural source of soft water) didn't leave as much soap residue in the hair when washing. Personally, as someone with oily skin, I could also see how the pioneer's lye-heavy soap may also have been nicer for cleaning hair. (Not that ANY soap is good for the hair, but back then, what were the options?) Those same superfat oils that are getting left behind on the dishes, get left behind on the hair too. I know when I used superfatted soap on my hair in the past, it would look about as oily afterwards as before I started. But I have hard well water, too. 

Anyway - good luck on your historical soap making methods! I've considered trying it myself for the kicks (and to say I've done it, lol), but it's not high enough on my priority list to make time for it! And it'll be cool to see if anyone here can 'help' you out ... if you're wanting help with anything in particular, you may want ask outright 'cause as I said ... it looks like you're doing great already!


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## Obsidian (Oct 31, 2019)

I can't help with the process but you are correct that the pioneers had soft soft when using potash.
Generally it was kept in some sort of pot or container and scooped out as needed.


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## Martha (Oct 31, 2019)

I remember reading somewhere (Little House on the Prairie, Farmer Boy maybe) where they mentioned homemade soap as being scoopable.


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## Sharron (Oct 31, 2019)

true blue said:


> It'll be interesting to see if anyone here can help you, as we pretty much do everything with sodium/potassium hydroxide and digital scales, too!  but I'm not quite sure what you need help with considering it seems like you've done your research and pretty well 'know' what you're doing. I think at this point, experience will be your best teacher!
> 
> That being said, we use the the hydroxides and scales to make everything 'safe' to today's standards (no lye-heavy soap). The pioneers (and farmers & other rural folks who lived in the 'east' for hundreds of years) were less concerned with modern safety and more concerned with cleaning power. Have you ever used modern superfatted soap to wash dishes or clothes? It doesn't work too well ... you end up with a light layer of fat (grease) on your dishes, and the same on your clothes (you just don't notice it on your clothes until it builds up over time). Not good. (Funny, how our modern sense of 'clean' is different for our bodies vs objects. Fat left on our skin after washing is 'moisturizing' but left on dishes equates to 'not clean'. lol) The lye-heavy soap the pioneers made cleaned dishes and clothes much better. Of course, it wasn't so good for skin, but they managed. No one died from it, I'll bet.  So yeah - I firmly believe that a pioneer who ended up with her yearly or semi-yearly batch of soap 'superfatted' ... considered it inferior, as to it's cleaning power.
> On a related, yet similar note, the reason many women in the 'olden days' preferred to use rainwater when washing their hair was because most everyone used well water. Which usually equates to hard water. Not having water softeners then, the rainwater (a natural source of soft water) didn't leave as much soap residue in the hair when washing. Personally, as someone with oily skin, I could also see how the pioneer's lye-heavy soap may also have been nicer for cleaning hair. (Not that ANY soap is good for the hair, but back then, what were the options?) Those same superfat oils that are getting left behind on the dishes, get left behind on the hair too. I know when I used superfatted soap on my hair in the past, it would look about as oily afterwards as before I started. But I have hard well water, too.
> ...




Thanks!  I feel pretty good about what I've done so far, but I am not sure if what I'm doing is correct.  There's not a lot of info out there on how to make soap from ashes.  Nobody does that anymore.  I had heard about the egg test, and it seemed like forever that I boiled that lye water down  When the egg floated, I was ecstatic!  

Right now, the historic home where I volunteer has hard lye soap for examples in the hearth kitchen and in balls at the wash basin in the house.  I really feel like the soap would have been the soft soap, but unless I have good documentation, I don't want to propose changing it.  I was hoping to get a good batch of nice hard soap to show off when we have farm demonstration days, but I'm thinking I'm going to have to change my story to fit how it was and not how we think it was.  It's the little things like this that people have forgotten how to do that are fun/frustrating/challenging.  

The soap has to cure in the container for a few days before I can even try to move it.  Then it has to sit for about a month for the lye to weaken.  I'll keep you posted on how this turns out.


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## BattleGnome (Nov 1, 2019)

I remember a “dear America” book that had a soap making scene and maybe an American Girl book. If it’s American girl then the series I’m thinking of was for Kirsten, a Swedish immigrant. I don’t remember the Dear America book other than my my mom has the collection my sister and I acquired. There should have been at least 3-4 about homesteading/manifest destiny in various parts of the US that may have some ideas or sources to look into.


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## lucycat (Nov 1, 2019)

Have you ever read the book 'Jane Franklin, Book of Ages'?  It is a biography of Jane Franklin and her relationship/letters with her brother Benjamin Franklin.  It is a great read but Jane was also a soapmaker and there are several references to it in the book.   It was a family recipe but I believe her soap had a lot of salt in it.   That might solve part of the softness issue.  My memory was that it was a color, maybe green.  I thought that was also a result of some type of additive.


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## sirtim100 (Nov 1, 2019)

I live in Galicia in NW Spain, and when I mention that I make my own soap, people here often talk about how grandmother or great grandmother made soap at home. This region took a long time to reach the 20th century, there were still villages without electrical power in the 70s, for example, and there were (and still are) traditional practices alive and well in a lot of these places. 

From what people tell me, the process was not dissimilar to the one you use, and the raw materials are identical. Galicia is pig country par excellence, so there is a lot of very good quality lard around here. What I'm not so sure about is the lye and where they got that from. As for the process, pure HP, stir and stir until ready. And it was used for everything, personal hygiene, clothes, the lot.

If you want, I can ask around and see what they tell me about processes, tools, ingredients, etc.

My fantasy is to make a Celtic soap. Roman writers made rather disparaging mentions of the Gauls and their use of soap to wash themselves. The Romans went more for coating themselves with olive oil and a scrape down with a "strigil". I'd love to make a Gaulish soap.


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## Sharron (Nov 1, 2019)

sirtim100 said:


> I live in Galicia in NW Spain, and when I mention that I make my own soap, people here often talk about how grandmother or great grandmother made soap at home. This region took a long time to reach the 20th century, there were still villages without electrical power in the 70s, for example, and there were (and still are) traditional practices alive and well in a lot of these places.
> 
> From what people tell me, the process was not dissimilar to the one you use, and the raw materials are identical. Galicia is pig country par excellence, so there is a lot of very good quality lard around here. What I'm not so sure about is the lye and where they got that from. As for the process, pure HP, stir and stir until ready. And it was used for everything, personal hygiene, clothes, the lot.
> 
> ...



I would love any help!  Thank you for your kind offer.  Mostly, I'd like to know proportions of lye water-fat-salt.  Also if I am following the basic steps correctly.

BTW, my great-grandparents were from San Feliu de Guixols on the opposite side of Spain from you.  My great-grandfather was a cork maker.


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## Michele50 (Nov 2, 2019)

Sharron said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am new to soap-making and am looking for help from people who have skills making soap the really old fashioned way.  Here's my story...
> 
> ...


A couple of years ago I was interested to see if I too could make soap with hardwood ash. We burn wood to heat our home in the winter so I plenty of it. I didn't do it like you are--the very authentic way--but I did it the quick method. I simmered my hardwood ash in distilled water on my stove until it reduced and I 'thought' it'd be strong enough to make soap. If an egg can float and crown 'x' amount or a fether dissolves in the solution then it is ready. I cannot remember how much crowning I was to look for and it's been two years ago but when I floated the egg it was perfect. I strained the ash from the water using a stocking that I had left over from making tooth fairy wings for my granddaughter. I had no clue as to how much lard to melt so I put 'x' in the pot and melted it (sorry not real technical, huh). I added some of my strained solution and cooked it stirring frequently. Never had anyone in my family or anyone to watch (not even Youtube video) so I wasn't sure what to look for I just knew I had to try it. Well, it made a (what I call) crude soap that I was able to lather in a dirty pot I had in the sink. It was such a small amount and I used it right away and did not put in a mold....lol...it'd have had to have been quite a small mold. It bubbled and was soapy to the feel so I considered it a success.

I'm excited for you and hope it turns out very well. Keep us updated, please.


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## sirtim100 (Nov 2, 2019)

Sharron said:


> I would love any help!  Thank you for your kind offer.  Mostly, I'd like to know proportions of lye water-fat-salt.  Also if I am following the basic steps correctly.
> 
> BTW, my great-grandparents were from San Feliu de Guixols on the opposite side of Spain from you.  My great-grandfather was a cork maker.



Consider it done


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## Martha (Nov 3, 2019)

Take a peek at this link. She seems very knowledgeable about both the process and the historical accuracy. 

https://classicbells.com/soap/woodAshLye.asp


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## Michele50 (Nov 3, 2019)

Martha said:


> Take a peek at this link. She seems very knowledgeable about both the process and the historical accuracy.
> 
> https://classicbells.com/soap/woodAshLye.asp


This was a good read, I always have to chuckle when I see material about 'no lye' soaps--impossible. Within this material, I used the "boil method" since it hastens the process, I was too anxious to wait by doing it the time-consuming way. Everything stated about the preference for slightly lye-heavy soap my husband can attest to--he remembers it as a kid, grandma and great-grandma made it. His mom did also but he was young enough to *not *be able to remember _*any *_details when I wanted to give it a shot, nor did his older sister. Those in Africa, saw a brief video b/4 trying this myself, still use this method--ash and water--and I figured that was why their soap is firm enough to keep some shape but soft enough to pinch off a small amount from the bar to wash vs getting the whole piece wet. I guessing anyway. In the video, I could see them doing as stated in Classic Bell's material: adding some of their carbonate ley, stirring the mix over an open fire outside, stirring in more and so on and so forth. Reading this material I now know what to call what I made on my stove--carbonate ley--so thanks. My exhaustive research had lead to what Classic Bell's info said--opted for lye-heavy vs too much oils.

With no family members old enough to have made this with their mom or grandma I had no idea how much carbonate ley to how much lard; but, then I'm guessing maybe they didn't either. They had to, by experience, know what the mixture looked like b/4 it was ready to check for a small 'zap.' I wish I knew at least that much as I was flying blind. Mine was like a *thick *liquid of sorts, not firm to keep a shape like that I saw on the video from those in Africa making theirs. I didn't let mine cool though, used it right away, so it could have become a bit solidified had I waited a few days. Still yet, it did not look like what I had seen on that video. The fact that it bubbled and lathered and 'felt' soapy tickled me pink for my first and _*only *_attempt. Got my curiosity fed so I haven't made any further attempts.

Making soap the old pioneer way is intriguing to me! I hope you nail it @Sharron


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## lenarenee (Nov 3, 2019)

Martha said:


> Take a peek at this link. She seems very knowledgeable about both the process and the historical accuracy.
> 
> https://classicbells.com/soap/woodAshLye.asp



That’s from SFM’s own DeeAnna! And yes.....she’s knowledgeable!


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## Bladesmith (Nov 3, 2019)

Seems like you could salt out the soap so that it didn't matter whether you had too little or too much lye. I'm not a history buff on soap so I'm not sure if they salted it out back in the day. It was definitely used in early production soap making though according to some late 1800's books on the subject.

I recently made a batch of soap in this way and it is some great soap. I've been meaning to make more with this method but I just haven't had the time lately.

But essentially you would heat and mix the fats in an excess of lye and water for an extended period of time (until saponification was done) then add salt until the soap begins to float on top. Then you can simply scoop it out. There's a few further steps involved but.. just giving you a general idea. I've only used NaOH for this so am uncertain how wood ash lye would react to this method.

Anyway, might be something to research or think about.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 3, 2019)

There are about three different methods of making soap that are being discussed here, all in a jumble.

1. There's the cold or hot process method used by most small-scale soap makers nowadays to make sodium (bar) soaps or potassium (liquid) soaps.

2. There's the "boil and salt-out" method that was and still is used by small to large scale soap makers usually for making sodium bar soap.

3. And then there's the "pioneer method" the OP is wanting to use.​
*Method 1* isn't suited for using lye with an unknown strength. The success of the typical cold and hot process methods depends on being able to accurately (a) know the weight of alkali being used and (b) measure the amounts of the fats and know their saponification values.

We can cheat a little bit nowadays because we don't normally make soap with anonymous kitchen drippings collected over the past year. And we also have a good idea of the sap values of the fats we do use. But we can't accurately measure the amount of alkali in wood ash lye -- we can only get a guesstimate if we limit ourselves to pioneer grade technology. Because we don't have the accuracy required for the usual hot and cold process methods to work well, we have to use a trial-and-error method of soap making -- in other words, methods 2 and 3.

*Method 2* is suited for commercial production of either type of soap -- sodium or potassium -- but is normally used for sodium soap. Accurate measurements of alkali and fat are not as important as with Method 1.

Method 2 uses a large excess of water and usually depends on the process of salting-out to harvest the finished soap. Salting-out makes the finished soap insoluble in the water by adding salt or alkali to convert the water into a brine (salt solution) or weak alkali solution. Salted-out soap floats on the brine or alkali solution so it can be scooped off and put into molds or containers.

Only sodium soaps will salt-out efficiently, however. If you salt-out a potassium soap that's dissolved in an excess of water, it's true that some of the potassium soap will convert to sodium soap and that sodium soap will salt out. Quite a bit of the potassium soap will remain in solution, however, and you will lose all that dissolved soap down the drain.

Maybe people nowadays don't mind losing a bunch of soap down the drain. If you're a tired, hardworking pioneer woman, however, you are NOT going to be interested in wasting resources -- the fat you've saved all year, the alkali you've slowly harvested from ashes, precious salt that might be better used for seasoning and preserving food, the water you have to carry bucket by bucket from the spring, the wood your husband and sons have chopped, and your valuable time -- trying to make a few pretty bars of hard soap. You will want to make as much soap as possible as efficiently as possible.

Which leads us to Method 3.

*Method 3* is best for making soap using a ley (an old word for lye solution) of unknown concentration and fats of unknown composition. The soap is made with a  reasonable minimum amount of water -- not the large excess as is used in Method 2. More water (weak ley) is used in the beginning of saponification and less water (stronger ley) is used near the end. (I can explain why the different lye concentrations are intentionally used, but this is already complicated enough, so I'll leave this alone for now.)

The ley and fat are added to the kettle gradually - a little fat, a little ley, cook for awhile, add a little fat, and so on. The zap test is used to determine whether the fat is fully saponified or not. If it is but there's fat still to saponify, then repeat the process -- add a little fat, add a little more ley, cook, and so on.

Once all the fat was used up and the soap remained just slightly zappy after a good long simmer, the soap was done. The soap maker might boil the soap paste a little longer to evaporate more water to thicken it up so it became a firmer paste when cool. The paste was put into containers for use and storage.

If salt could be spared for soap making, yes, salt could be added to the pasty finished soap to convert some of the potassium soap to sodium soap. That would make the paste more firm, but the soap would never be hard like our bar soap. All of the salt, all of the soap, and all of the water would remain in the finished soap, unlike the salted-out soap you'd make if using Method 2.


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## Michele50 (Nov 3, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> There are about three different methods of making soap that are being discussed here, all in a jumble.
> 
> 1. There's the cold or hot process method used by most small-scale soap makers nowadays to make sodium (bar) soaps or potassium (liquid) soaps.
> 
> ...



"Pasty" is a good way of describing what mine looked like. What I made was method 3 of your explanation--add some fat, then some ley, cooked on my stove and then repeat. I saw (in the short video) that ley was being added intermittently as it cooked but I couldn't tell if they were adding more oils so I thought I was actually doing it wrong. I presume the way soap is still made in African villages is how pioneer women made theirs, but with different resources of course. 

I was a bit surprised at the consistency of mine since what I had seen the village women hand-scoop out of their barrels was firmer. After removing the soap it was placed on the barrel lid (also over an open fire) and pounded with a small tree branch and/or their hands. I was wondering if this was done maybe to release air from the soap (??) and maybe 'knead' the soap like one would knead bread dough (??). I think had I cooked mine longer, cooked more water out, it would have been the consistency I expected rather than 'pasty.' 

"Worth your weight in salt" came from the fact that salt was a very precious commodity. Without refrigeration, it was needed to preserve meat from animals killed for their consumption. I'm like you, doubtful it was used to salt-out their soap. I actually thought the salting-out of soap was so that companies could separate the glycerin from their soap and sell it as a separate product. 

"The word “salary” was derived from the word “salt.” Salt was highly valued and its production was legally restricted in ancient times, so it was historically used as a method of trade and currency." https://www.seasalt.com/history-of-salt


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## Martha (Nov 4, 2019)

Here’s another good link that talks about soap making in US colonial times. 

https://www.ehow.com/about_4566250_soap-making-colonial-times.html
I think the book I was thinking of that mentioned the soft soap was Little Women. One of the characters used the soft (lower quality) soap at home, but used store bought soap (hard bars) at her friend’s house.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 4, 2019)

Remember too that ashes vary in composition, so the resulting soap will vary too.

If you make soap using ashes from inland woods, your soap will be softer than soap made with ashes of marine or seacoast vegetation.

Many ancient soap making centers were usually along ocean coastlines, because soap makers could harvest and burn seaweed and other specific plants that were adapted to living in a salty environment. These ashes contained more sodium than ashes from inland woods, so you'd get a firmer soap.

Also, you want to use ash that's been burned to white, not softwood ashes and not black ashes. Softwood ash contains less carbonate so the ley will not be as strong, so hardwood ashes are preferred. Black ash contains more impurities.


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## Michele50 (Nov 4, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> Remember too that ashes vary in composition, so the resulting soap will vary too.
> 
> If you make soap using ashes from inland woods, your soap will be softer than soap made with ashes of marine or seacoast vegetation.
> 
> ...


I remember reading material that you've mentioned. All this is so interesting to me and I could spend (have spent) hours and hours reading just for the sake of soaking up all that I can--for knowledge sake. It's time-consuming and labor-intensive so, yes, one needs to understand all the ins and outs before delving into making pioneer-style soap. You bring up really good points......as usual. I hope I live long enough to become as knowledgable as you .


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## Deb Walker (Nov 5, 2019)

While trying to find how to get a hard KOH bar I ended up reading about African Black soap.  Made from ashes of plantain,  cocoa and shea it is basically a KOH soap.  Black from the ashes and on the softer side.  I also heard about traditional Polish Grey soap which is a KOH soap, from friends there.  Both of these soaps are prized for their gentleness and benefits to those with skin problems.
  My grandmother made her own soap and my mother tells me it was awful. I am supposing that being a practical woman (born in late 1800's) she was more interested in cleaning than skin healing.  I presume it was lye heavy.
  Because it is hard to search for topics in other languages I couldn't find the full recipes but realized that salt was the hardener.  I did read that poorer people (US and I probably other countries) in very early times used a soap "sludge" because salt for soap making was beyond their finances.
  I presumed that soap makers near the ocean used sea water to percolate their lye with as hard KOH bars were made.  
  While not doing it the pioneer way (though I have been tempted to try) I dissolve my KOH in brine and the rest of the salt just goes into the oils.  Using 20% salt works well and maybe soap makers who didn't have the old scales just estimated weights.  
  I am sure that not all soap was lye heavy as rich people would have payed for good soap.


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## Michele50 (Nov 5, 2019)

Deb Walker said:


> While trying to find how to get a hard KOH bar I ended up reading about African Black soap.  Made from ashes of plantain,  cocoa and shea it is basically a KOH soap.  Black from the ashes and on the softer side.  I also heard about traditional Polish Grey soap which is a KOH soap, from friends there.  Both of these soaps are prized for their gentleness and benefits to those with skin problems.
> My grandmother made her own soap and my mother tells me it was awful. I am supposing that being a practical woman (born in late 1800's) she was more interested in cleaning than skin healing.  I presume it was lye heavy.
> Because it is hard to search for topics in other languages I couldn't find the full recipes but realized that salt was the hardener.  I did read that poorer people (US and I probably other countries) in very early times used a soap "sludge" because salt for soap making was beyond their finances.
> I presumed that soap makers near the ocean used sea water to percolate their lye with as hard KOH bars were made.
> ...


Howdy @Deb Walker Welcome to the forum. I hope this helps make sense of a sometimes confusing thing. I've had others (DeeAnn to name one) help me when I posted something that allowed her to see I boo-booed on something and appreciated her pointing it out so I could go back and fix my error--thanks @DeeAnna  and you probably don't know what I am speaking of....but thanks anyway.

DeeAnna (post #17) has given good info on the various methods of making soap (#1, #2, & #3) and they are all different one from the other. I just wanted to mention, because things can sometimes become confusing when words sound alike. While I 'do not' have the knowledge that DeeAnn has, I did greatly research African Black Soap a couple of years ago. While potassium hydroxide (KOH) is commonly called _caustic pot*ash*_, it's not the same as the lye solution made from _hardwood *ash*_. Wood-ash lye is a solution of mostly potassium carbonate and some sodium carbonate and making soap from it is very different than using KOH to make liquid soap (a thick soap *paste*). I've made both the soap paste for liquid soap (KOH) and made my own pioneer/African Black soap-tye lye solution from hardwood ash. From what I researched, pioneer soap and ABS (African Black Soap) starts with ashes used from what is at hand--hardwood by pioneers; ashes from cocoa pods, plantain peeling, and/or palm leaves in Africa and maybe other type of plant material. African soap is a very pliable soap due to the type of lye ('ley') solution used; KOH will make a very different kind of end product--thick paste that is pliable but must be diluted with water. I suppose anyone could use it in the very concentrated form but then it would be a waste with not diluting--diluting as it should be will make *a bunch* liquid soap. To clarify, I didn't make ABS, it was pioneer soap that I made which I feel is the same method used in Africa to this day.....only different plant material used for the ley solution.

My hubby remembers the lye-soap his grandma/great-grandma made and it was lye-heavy but was that way as a choice over too much oils---also touched upon by DeeAnn. Since hardwood ash lye solution cannot be consistent from batch to batch soap couldn't be made as we can make today using NaOH. We have the ability to make soap without being lye-heavy because we know how much lye (NaOH / KOH) it takes to saponify the oils we are using--pioneers didn't have that info back then.

Coming from a new member (me) and a person who still has a bit of a problem with low self-esteem, I had to not quit posting even when I got something wrong. Please don't take this as anything but the sharing info done. Again, welcome to a forum with members who I've found to be super helpful to me.


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## Deb Walker (Nov 5, 2019)

Michele50 said:


> Howdy @Deb Walker Welcome to the forum. I hope this helps make sense of a sometimes confusing thing. I've had others (DeeAnn to name one) help me when I posted something that allowed her to see I boo-booed on something and appreciated her pointing it out so I could go back and fix my error--thanks @DeeAnna  and you probably don't know what I am speaking of....but thanks anyway.
> 
> DeeAnna (post #17) has given good info on the various methods of making soap (#1, #2, & #3) and they are all different one from the other. I just wanted to mention, because things can sometimes become confusing when words sound alike. While I 'do not' have the knowledge that DeeAnn has, I did greatly research African Black Soap a couple of years ago. While potassium hydroxide (KOH) is commonly called _caustic pot*ash*_, it's not the same as the lye solution made from _hardwood *ash*_. Wood-ash lye is a solution of mostly potassium carbonate and some sodium carbonate and making soap from it is very different than using KOH to make liquid soap (a thick soap *paste*). I've made both the soap paste for liquid soap (KOH) and made my own pioneer/African Black soap-tye lye solution from hardwood ash. From what I researched, pioneer soap and ABS (African Black Soap) starts with ashes used from what is at hand--hardwood by pioneers; ashes from cocoa pods, plantain peeling, and/or palm leaves in Africa and maybe other type of plant material. African soap is a very pliable soap due to the type of lye ('ley') solution used; KOH will make a very different kind of end product--thick paste that is pliable but must be diluted with water. I suppose anyone could use it in the very concentrated form but then it would be a waste with not diluting--diluting as it should be will make *a bunch* liquid soap. To clarify, I didn't make ABS, it was pioneer soap that I made which I feel is the same method used in Africa to this day.....only different plant material used for the ley solution.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your kind reply.  I presumed a forum would be for the polite sharing of information even if it means making corrections (that's how we learn) so you are welcome.  

I make liquid soap so I am familiar with the KOH soap paste that is made as well as the dilutions etc.  I am talking about a hard bar KOH soap which I make regularly. 

It seems the web sites I looked at back in the day didn't give me the correct details on the chemical composition but to my memory there were comparisons so maybe there shared characteristics somewhere in there. 
Anyway my KOH soap bars work very well with beneficial characteristics and the pioneer way is fascinating (if I had time I would try it) so nothing lost.


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## Michele50 (Nov 5, 2019)

Deb Walker said:


> Thank you for your kind reply.  I presumed a forum would be for the polite sharing of information even if it means making corrections (that's how we learn) so you are welcome.
> 
> I make liquid soap so I am familiar with the KOH soap paste that is made as well as the dilutions etc.  I am talking about a hard bar KOH soap which I make regularly.
> 
> ...



Now that you mentioned it, I had actually landed on a stie (long ago) of someone who made bar soap with KOH. I've not seen much online about it.......probably because I hadn't actually looked it up specifically; I only happened upon it. 

Lol, I stand corrected; one can make soap with KOH. I'll have to do some researching and give it a try. I'm like a kid when it comes to curiosity, but not like a cat. I love reading anything 'soap.'


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## Sharron (Nov 9, 2019)

Update - 

Thanks to everyone who gave me suggestions on how to harden up the soap I am making with lye from wood ashes, rainwater, salt and lard.   I did test my lye water with pH strips, and it is within the necessary range.  It also passed the egg and potato test.

The first batch came to trace but wouldn't harden, so I tried another batch using a different ratio of lye, salt, and lard.  This time, I used 1 1/2 cups lye water, 2 cups lard, and 3 tablespoons of sea salt.  This batch thickened up enough to cut into bar-shaped sizes but it's still soft, like polenta.  I've got it drying on a cooling rack covered with muslin.  It also feels greasy when I pinch off a piece to see if it will wash up.

Questions: 

Any idea if it will harden over time and get less greasy?  Do I need to think about temperature when mixing over the course of an hour or so?  Should I keep it warm during the mixing? (I got each mixture to about 120* before combining, but didn't keep it warm while mixing it.)

Thanks for any thoughts!


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## DeeAnna (Nov 10, 2019)

_"...Any idea if it will ... get less greasy?..."_

Are you not willing to check the soap to see if there is a slight zap as a way to know whether the fat is fully saponified? If you aren't willing to test, then you don't know the answer to whether the soap has an excess of fat or not. 

If _you _don't know whether the soap is neutral or has excess fat or excess alkali, I certainly can't answer this question. The greasy feeling could be from excess fat or it could be from excess alkali because it quickly attacks your skin leaving a slick, greasy feeling.

Given the type of saponification method you're using, if you do not test during saponification, you really don't know what you've got. Your soap can be anywhere from too greasy from excess fat or dangerously alkaline from excess lye.

If you test the soap and find it to be slightly alkaline after a good long simmer, then you know the soap is close to "tongue neutral" (zap free) and at that point you could arguably add a bit more fat to the soap to give it a slight superfat. But _unless you test_, you won't know what quality of soap you've got so you can't make good decisions about what to do next.

_"...I did test my lye water with pH strips, and it is within the necessary range...."_

Potassium carbonate, K2CO3, has a pH of around 10.5 starting at a 0.14% solution of K2CO3 in water. It rises to about 11.4 pH at a 14% solution. And then the pH increases slowly thereafter to a max of about 11.6 in a saturated solution of K2CO3 (about 138 g K2CO3 / 100 mL of water which translates to a 58% K2CO3 solution concentration by weight).

Let's assume your pH strips are able to accurately tell you the pH to within half a pH unit. They indicate the pH of your lye solution is 11.5 plus or minus 0.25 pH units. That means the solution could contain anywhere from about 14% to about 58% concentration.

I really do not think this answer is sufficiently accurate for a person to make soap on this information alone. A soapmaker wanting to make this type of soap _has _to do a reasonably accurate test for excess alkali during saponification to really have a clue. The pH test isn't going to do that -- a person has to do either the zap test or a proper lab test for free alkali.

I will also add that pH strips and pH meters are wildly inaccurate at high alkali concentrations. To accurately test the pH concentrated alkalis, you have to test the solution using an indirect method. If you want to know what that method is, I'll be glad to provide that information in another post.

Sodium carbonate, sodium hydroxide, potassium carbonate, and potassium hydroxide all have a similar relationship between pH and concentration. The pH test alone will _never _be an accurate test of concentration for these alkalis, and that is especially true at higher concentrations.

_"...Any idea if it will harden over time...?..."
_
As I've already explained, adding salt will add firmness to the paste, but it will not create a hard bar soap.


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## sirtim100 (Nov 10, 2019)

Hi @Sharron 

I asked around, and the people who might have known about soap making way back when have nearly all passed away or discovered something that puts the kibosh on what I think you're after: they all discovered lye in packets of one form or another and made their lye mixture that way. They did use lard, no salt to speak of and mixed it all together in a big metal pot of some kind. The task was usually one for the women, and according to one female friend, her grandfather wouldn't wash with anything else, it had to be "el jabón de manteca o nada" (lard soap or nothing)

Sorry I can't help out more, if I pick up any genuinely useful information, I'll pass it on.


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## Cereal (Nov 11, 2019)

“There's not a lot of info out there on how to make soap from ashes.  Nobody does that anymore.”

Savon de Marseille is still made from ashes (and salt water...but it’s ashes of sea plants, not hardwood...and it’s always pure vegetable soap, not lard). 

Any of the four or five soap producers (you can find them on line easily...it’s like Savonerie du Midi, La Licorne, Marius Farbre, and one of two others) still using the traditional method *might* conceivably be willing to answer questions, although maybe not...and they might not speak English very well.  I do know those soaps are cooked over fire in a cauldron for something like three days. They are usually relatively soft bars, but still bars-not scoopable soap. 

but aside from planning a trip to Marseille and taking a bunch of soap tours, maybe some internet research around savon de marseille traditional method etc. Might be interesting. 

Good luck with your project!


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## Sharron (Nov 12, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...Any idea if it will ... get less greasy?..."_
> 
> Are you not willing to check the soap to see if there is a slight zap as a way to know whether the fat is fully saponified? If you aren't willing to test, then you don't know the answer to whether the soap has an excess of fat or not.
> 
> ...



Well, as to whether I am willing to do the zap test, I'm a vegetarian, and the idea of sticking my tongue on a bar of soap made with lard that may or may not be saponified, kinda grosses me out to be honest!  Lol!  I may see if I can get my husband to try it though.  What exactly will he be looking for?  Is it a zap as strong as touching a battery with your tongue?  

As far as hardening, I am fine if it doesn't harden.  My goal is to make the soap as an accurate representation of the kind of soap the people on the Kentucky frontier in 1816 would have had.  The historic home where I work and volunteer was owned by some of the wealthiest people in the area.  Their family members were merchants.  I feel like they would have had hard soap imported from Philly or Boston for their personal use, but the soap for the kitchen, laundry, and the enslaved would have been the homemade kind.  Doubt if salt would have been used for these purposes.  

And like I said in my first post, they would not have had scales, thermometers, etc. to measure with any accuracy the pH, weight, and temperature of the ingredients.  Their soap-making skills came from years and years of just doing it.  I'm trying to learn how to do this with little to no information and no one-on-one instruction.  

Since I'm not going to make this to sell or really even use, I'm not super concerned if it's 100%.  My goal is to get as much correct information as I can so that we can accurately represent how soap was made and used in 1816 and then I can demonstrate with some degree of accuracy the steps involved.  Of course, if I happen to make great soap in the process, that's a bonus.


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## atiz (Nov 12, 2019)

This is a really interesting project! Hope you can figure out the method.

For the zap test, yes, it's like a battery. Someone once told me that if I have to think about whether it zapped or not then it didn't; you just can't miss it. Zap means excess alkali. 

Good luck with all of it!


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## Michele50 (Nov 12, 2019)

Sharron said:


> "....What exactly will he be looking for?  Is it a zap as strong as touching a battery with your tongue?


Yes, it's much like that sensation. At least when I've tested and gotten zapped from my liquid soap paste, in which case I cooked it a bit longer. I imagine that if it was very lye-heavy the zap could be much stronger. 



Sharron said:


> "...Their soap-making skills came from years and years of just doing it.  I'm trying to learn how to do this with little to no information and no one-on-one instruction.
> 
> .... My goal is to get as much correct information as I can so that we can accurately represent how soap was made and used in 1816 and then I can demonstrate with some degree of accuracy the steps involved.  Of course, if I happen to make great soap in the process, that's a bonus."


In speaking to my sister who knows a lady who once lived in Africa and discussing my interest in how they still make soap-- as pioneers did I'm thinking--she told me she'd ask her if she knows anything about soapmaking practices there. If I find out anything, I'll pass it on. 



atiz said:


> "....For the zap test, yes, it's like a battery. Someone once told me that if I have to think about whether it zapped or not then it didn't; you just can't miss it. Zap means excess alkali...."


Lol, I've done both; in fact, I still check 9-volt batteries to see if they are completely dead or not if I happen to find one laying around the house b/4 'assuming' it's no good. Although we have very few items that require that kind anymore.


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## CatahoulaBubble (Nov 12, 2019)

I learned soap making from my great grandmother when I was very young. I watched her make soap several times when I was a kid and then I made some myself with her help when I was in my teens. But then she passed away and I didn't pick up soap making again until my 30s because the internet made it sooooo much easier to make soap. 

She had a bucket that she would scoop her ashes into. She'd filter out all of the dark pieces and chunks of half burnt coals and sift through it till she had just the fine white/gray ash. Then she'd put a layer of straw on it and then fill it with water.  They used well water.  She let that sit for probably a week. This was in summer though so by the time she went to actually use the water there had been evaporation and so the bucket probably had half of what was originally in it.   

Now while her lye water was soaking she'd take all of the fats in her "grease pail" which was cooked fats and fat trimmings and she'd boil it down let it cool then skim the fats off the top of the cooled water and then boil it again until she had all of the fat rendered. It was a mix of beef and pork fat and possibly some chicken fat because she just tossed it all in one bucket then rendered it before the soap making.   

Once she had the fats rendered and the lye water made she'd build a fire outside and use a pot to melt the fats and then she'd strain and drain the lye into another pot and once the fats were melted she'd heat up the lye. She wanted the lye and the fats to be body temperature and she'd actually test the lye on her wrist to gauge the temp. Once they were the same temp she'd mix in the fats to the lye slowly and just keep adding and stirring until she got the consistency she wanted. Honestly I haven't the foggiest how she gauged it. Once she liked the way it looked she then put it back on the edge of the fire and let it simmer while she sat and stirred it. So basically hot processing it to some degree. Then when she was happy with it she'd take the pot off the heat and pour it into the soap jar thing they used to store it. It was like a wide mouth crockery pot. The soap on the edges and top would harden when cooled but the soap under the top layer was soft like playdough.


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## Sharron (Nov 13, 2019)

CatahoulaBubble said:


> I learned soap making from my great grandmother when I was very young. I watched her make soap several times when I was a kid and then I made some myself with her help when I was in my teens. But then she passed away and I didn't pick up soap making again until my 30s because the internet made it sooooo much easier to make soap.
> 
> She had a bucket that she would scoop her ashes into. She'd filter out all of the dark pieces and chunks of half burnt coals and sift through it till she had just the fine white/gray ash. Then she'd put a layer of straw on it and then fill it with water.  They used well water.  She let that sit for probably a week. This was in summer though so by the time she went to actually use the water there had been evaporation and so the bucket probably had half of what was originally in it.
> 
> ...




This is so helpful!  Thank you!  It's almost exactly what I did, minus keeping it hot while processing.  I'll have to try it that way!


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## Lindywine (Nov 14, 2019)

Sharron said:


> This is so helpful!  Thank you!  It's almost exactly what I did, minus keeping it hot while processing.  I'll have to try it that way!


I really enjoyed reading this as I did the same thing with my grandmother. We still have some of her century old soap. I like to display it along with my "modern" handmade soap.


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