# What to use as antioxidants?



## Rune (Mar 19, 2017)

Hi!

I am very, very new to soap making, but have done a lot of research. I came across a site that claims grocery store bought olive oil will not work for soap making: https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/tips-and-tricks/olive-oils-created-equally/

I don't really believe the Soap Queen, since she is there to sell products from Brambleberry: "While you technically can make soap with small sized store-bought oils, you can see that the results can be unpredictable and in these tests, didn’t result in the highest quality soaps. In these tests, only the soaps made with Bramble Berry’s Pure and Pomace Olive Oils stood the test of time and did not behave poorly or develop DOS"

But what if she is totally right? It is too late to find a lot of DOS when you have made like 5 loafs and they have been curing for many weeks.

I can not buy anything from Brambleberry anyway, nothing from America at all, because of the high shipping cost. But there must be something that can be added to olive oil, a strong antioxidant.

I know about vitamin E, but that is too expensive for use in large quantities, and especially the natural vitamin E, which is the only one I can use in all natural soaps.

I know about citric acid and other acidic antioxidants. But they will mess up the recipe and make a soft bar because of acids neutralizing lye.

I also know about rosemary extract. That is a good option when rosemary scent is acceptable. But who wants rosemary scent in everything? So that is not an all-rounder.

But something must be out there, that is not synthetic, that is not too acidic, that is not too expensive and does not have a strong scent on it's own, and is so strong that it easily can be used to keep 1 liter of oil at a time fresh for a long time.

Do you know about anything?


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## shunt2011 (Mar 19, 2017)

You can add vitamins E or Rosemary Olserin.  I add it to my oils when I open the bottle.  Olive oil makes great soap. Many purchase it from their local grocery. I buy mine from COSTCO which is a large warehouse chain here.


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## Rune (Mar 19, 2017)

Do you use the vitamin E capsules from Costco, from Kirkland Signature brand? That and another capsule is the only one I can find at costco.com. I should be able to find vitamin E capsules at a local health food store or the pharmacy, maybe cheaper than the liquid vitamin E. 

I googled it now, and it is superexpensive here. And you get maximum 60 capsules. So that is not an option. 

I have found prices for vitamin E in France (Aroma-Zone). It is 8 dollars for a 30 ml bottle. The strenght is only 50%, and I found on a forum that you are supposed to add 2-3 tablespoons per gallon of base oil. And we can double that since it is just 50% strong. And then the 30 ml bottle will be gone in an instant. So that is too expensive. Rosemary was even more expensive. Hmm. But there must be a cheaper alternative somewhere than vitamin E and rosemary. 

I found on a Norwegian pharmacy's website that they have vitamin E for animals. That is in bigger bottles and full strenght, so it will be cheaper. But it's synthetic, and I can't use that if I shall claim my soaps to be 100% natural. And I really want to make all natural soaps. Not that I have anything against synthetic ingredients, but I'm just more attracted to the all natural scents and colors and so on. I like the bleeding and morphing and all the unpredictable stuff that natural colorants can do :-D


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## shunt2011 (Mar 19, 2017)

No, I use t50 I think it's called from a soap company.


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## cmzaha (Mar 19, 2017)

I am one of the very naughty people that like to use BHT. I have trouble with lard going DOS even when using ROE so I changed to BHT & Sodium Citrate. No Dos in lard anymore! Most lard will contain BHT so I just add a titch/pinch more to my 60 oz oil batches


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## Obsidian (Mar 19, 2017)

You can use citric acid without it messing up your soap, you just have to add a little extra lye. There is a post about calculating how much, I'll see if I can find it for you.

Edit: I can't find the post but I have these notes written down.

_Citric acid is used to create sodium citrate for a chelating agent/hard water softener/lather booster. For every 1000 grams of oils, you would add 10 g of citric acid and 6 g of extra lye to your water solution to create sodium citrate without extra superfat._

Personally, I've never had any issues with store bought olive oil. I don't believe a thing that comes out of the soapqueens mouth. She is above all else, a business women who's real interest is selling her products.


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## Rune (Mar 19, 2017)

BHT is not produced naturally, as far as I can find out. So that I can not use. Sodium citrate will be made by itself by adding citric acid, so there is no need for buying that either, I think.

Citric acid, yes, that is something that should work. And it's very cheap here and available at every grocery store. That seems like a great idea if it can be adjusted by adding more lye. I knew that it should be possible, but not the exact amount (I am very afraid of getting a lye heavy soap). Thank you, I will definately try that method. 

I don't think either it should be a big problem with a 100% olive oil soap. It has been made for generations, and they did for sure not buy the oil from Brambleberry. The Soap Queen's examples was getting really bad even before unmolding, so I guess that is as fake as it can be. But even worse if it's true. For if all olive oils fails completely but only Brambleberry's survive, what have Brambleberry added to their oil that is not available to others? Mercury?

But I wish to take some precautions anyway, since I plan to use some percentage of superfatting. Not too much, but suddenly horrible DOS appears and everything has to be thrown away. And olive oil soaps must cure for a longer time, so I guess it is an extra change of DOS to appear. Plus that refined oils go rancid quicker than unrefined, and I will use refined. But I have no experience, so it's just guessing. But to add some citric acid, that is a low cost alternative, and proven to be effective as an antioxydant.

If I understand right, can i use 1000 grams of oil already mixed with 10 grams of citric acid before storing, X minus superfatting plus 6 grams of lye, and then water? So let's say the lye calculator says 150 grams of lye when an 8% superfatting is chosen. Then I just add 6 grams, so it is 156 grams of lye in total. Or must I choose zero superfatting?


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## Rune (Mar 19, 2017)

Aha, okey. The citric acid must be added to the lye/water solution. I was just googling and found out that citric acid is most likely not soluble in oil. But yes, I see that you write that it is added to the water solution.


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## Rune (Mar 19, 2017)

And what is a chelating agent? I have googled that in both english and norwegian, and did not understand a thing other than it has something with a metal ring to do. Or some ions bonding to each other to form a ring. No, I don't get it at all.


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## dibbles (Mar 19, 2017)

A chelating agent helps to prevent soap scum in hard water. If you are planning to add it to the lye water, dissolve it completely in the water before adding the lye. Our own super smart DeeAnna has compiled soap making information for a lot of commonly asked questions, including using citric acid, sodium citrate and EDTA. Here is the link to her very helpful page:

https://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.html

ETA: I use Costco olive oil as well, and have had no problems with it. Before that I used grocery store light olive oil without issues.


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## shunt2011 (Mar 19, 2017)

Also, if you plan on making 100% castille  it's not a very good soap and needs to cure a very long time.  A year and it's an okay soap.


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## IrishLass (Mar 19, 2017)

I use a chelator in my soap (tetrasodium EDTA). Not only does it help cut down on soap scum formation due to my hard water situation, but it is also very effective as a DOS-preventative.




shunt2011 said:


> Also, if you plan on making 100% points soap


 
LOL I read your post without having read the whole thread first, and I thought to myself, "Oooo! What is this thing called 100% points soap- a new Castile technique perhaps?" So I went back and read through the whole thread to find out more about 100% points soap, only to figure out it was just a case of "Dang you Autocorrect!" lol I take it that you meant to say 100% Castile soap, correct? 



IrishLass


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## cmzaha (Mar 19, 2017)

Rune said:


> Aha, okey. The citric acid must be added to the lye/water solution. I was just googling and found out that citric acid is most likely not soluble in oil. But yes, I see that you write that it is added to the water solution.


It is much safer in my opinion to dissolve the citric acid in water instead of adding it to the lye Then dump into your oil. Just take out some of your water before mixing your lye. I never mentioned that BHT was natural, just very good at deterring dos apparently at its best if used with Sodium Citrate. This is according to test done by Kevin Dunn author of the Scientific Soapmaking book. I used to use Citric Acid at a rate of 3% total batch weight, but found it to be to much. It would precipitate out of the soap and crystallize on the outside, it did not hurt anything and washed off but I did not like it so changed to 2% and it was better. Just times the amount of citric acid by 0.624 for the total extra lye needed.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 19, 2017)

Another thing that Kevin Dunn reported is that vitamin E didn't do squat, compared with the other antioxidants and chelators that he tested. I really, really question whether vitamin E is useful in this context. Might be great on skin, but in soap or soaping fats .. not so much.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 19, 2017)

IrishLass said:


> LOL I read your post without having read the whole thread first, and I thought to myself, "Oooo! What is this thing called 100% points soap- a new Castile technique perhaps?" So I went back and read through the whole thread to find out more about 100% points soap, only to figure out it was just a case of "Dang you Autocorrect!" lol


LOL Too funny! In any case, I believe styrax benzoin oil has preservative qualties. Here's an article by the esteemed Martin Watt on the subject, as well as extracts in general:

ETA - Deleted the link. It didn't work... BRB   ...Here's the corrected link:

https://www.naturesgift.com/aromath...ntial-oil-safety/benzoin-a-safe-preservative/


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## shunt2011 (Mar 19, 2017)

IrishLass said:


> I use a chelator in my soap (tetrasodium EDTA). Not only does it help cut down on soap scum formation due to my hard water situation, but it is also very effective as a DOS-preventative.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Having a rough day with autocorrect


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## SunRiseArts (Mar 19, 2017)

Rune, I am sort of a newbie to CP too.  But I think I have found my groove.  My favorite thing to do is substitute the water or some of the water of your lye with juices  or purees from natural elements.  Soaping1o1 on utube has amazing videos on this.

The other day I had vegetables left (carrots and cucumbers) and I juiced them to use as my lye water.  Loved the results, it did not even need color or fragrance. You can get your antioxidants that way.


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## cmzaha (Mar 20, 2017)

SunRiseArts said:


> Rune, I am sort of a newbie to CP too.  But I think I have found my groove.  My favorite thing to do is substitute the water or some of the water of your lye with juices  or purees from natural elements.  Soaping1o1 on utube has amazing videos on this.
> 
> The other day I had vegetables left (carrots and cucumbers) and I juiced them to use as my lye water.  Loved the results, it did not even need color or fragrance. You can get your antioxidants that way.


Unfortunately they will fade in color and the tiny bit of scent will not stick. You are not going to get enough antioxidants to keep the soap from getting dos if it chooses to.


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## SunRiseArts (Mar 20, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> Unfortunately they will fade in color and the tiny bit of scent will not stick. You are not going to get enough antioxidants to keep the soap from getting dos if it chooses to.


 

Oh have not gone to that step yet ... they are curing.  I will watch them!  Tanks for the info.


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## WeaversPort (Mar 20, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> I am one of the very naughty people that like to use BHT.



What is BHT and why is it naughty?


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 20, 2017)

In an excellent study on DOS that appeared in The Journal of the Hancrafted Soapmaker Guild in 2004/2005, it mentions the efficacy of BHT + Sodium Citrate in reducing the appearance of DOS. Personally, I use ROE and add a little Vitamin E for its skin-loving properties to almost all my oils once opened. Normally, I would share the link to the following information, but all I have is the PDF file. The following quote is at the end and contains the conclusions drawn from the study:



> *Do additves do better when combined?*
> We next looked at combinations of additives. Vitamin E (0.1 g) + Sodium Citrate (0.1g) performed slightly better than Vitamin E alone, that is to say, it did not perform very well. ROE + Sodium Citrate actually performed worse than ROE alone. Three combinations, however, performed dramatically better than any single additive. BHT + EDTA and ROE + EDTA each lengthened the induction period beyond 300 hours and held the eventual color saturation below 25%.
> (Unable to show Chart)
> The best combination in our tests, however, came from BHT + Sodium Citrate. Used together, they lengthened the induction period beyond 300 hours and held the eventual color saturation to about 10%, the same color as fresh soap.
> ...



HTH   :bunny:​


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## beardguy (Mar 20, 2017)

Since I buy all my lard from Walmart, I don't want DOS and I don't give two you know what about scaremongering (and I'm not looking to sell), where do you buy BHT or EDTA for that matter ? I checked with the online soap suppliers I have bought from (Saffire Blue, Voyageur soap and New Directions) and none of them seem to have BHT or EDTA.


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## IrishLass (Mar 20, 2017)

I buy my Tetrasodium EDTA from LotionCrafter


IrishLass


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## beardguy (Mar 20, 2017)

Thank you for that info ! I will pick some up along with ROE.


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## mx5inpenn (Mar 20, 2017)

beardguy said:


> Since I buy all my lard from Walmart, I don't want DOS and I don't give two you know what about scaremongering (and I'm not looking to sell), where do you buy BHT or EDTA for that matter ? I checked with the online soap suppliers I have bought from (Saffire Blue, Voyageur soap and New Directions) and none of them seem to have BHT or EDTA.



If you are buying the armour brand lard, it has BHT added.


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## beardguy (Mar 20, 2017)

mx6inpenn said:


> If you are buying the armour brand lard, it has BHT added.



Sadly, Walmart doesn't seem to carry Armour lard around here, only Tenderflake. It still has bht, bha and citric acid.


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## earlene (Mar 20, 2017)

beardguy said:


> Sadly, Walmart doesn't seem to carry Armour lard around here, only Tenderflake. It still has bht, bha and citric acid.



Walmart is so unpredictable that way! I have discovered in my travels that I cannot count on any given Walmart to carry the same brands, or even sometimes, the same product.  But it sure makes shopping interesting.


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## Rune (Mar 21, 2017)

SunRiseArts said:


> Rune, I am sort of a newbie to CP too.  But I think I have found my groove.  My favorite thing to do is substitute the water or some of the water of your lye with juices  or purees from natural elements.  Soaping1o1 on utube has amazing videos on this.
> 
> The other day I had vegetables left (carrots and cucumbers) and I juiced them to use as my lye water.  Loved the results, it did not even need color or fragrance. You can get your antioxidants that way.



A great idea! I have been thinking about that, sort of. Because in Sweden they have all sorts of concentrated juice packages. A small package that you must dillute at home, it gives 1 litre. But I found out that every single one of them had citric acid added to them, and I thought no, that will destroy the lye. But now I hear that citric acid is a wanted ingrediens. So I will buy some of those juices. The only problem is that I don't know how much citric acid they contain. But I guess that is possible to find out. It is especially the lingonberry juice I want to make soap with. That juice is bright red and taste fantastic! They also have blueberry juice and much more. And they are dead cheap. Here in Norway, nothing like that exists. We have only regular fruit juices and not very many to choose from. And they are not cheap either. To juice fruits and vegetables myself is at the moment not an option, because I then have to buy a fruit juicer. Not that they aren't cheap, but it's easier to just buy premade. And there will be no clutter from unused kitchen appliances all over the place. Plus vegetables and fruits are expensive here. We are so far north that the shipping from Southern Europe, where they are produced, is extreme. Paprika costs around $5,50 per kilo, for example. One cucumber is around $1,70. But I want to make a carrot soap. And there is no carrot juice nowhere to be found here or in Sweden, except from a very expensive and very bad tasting one with muddy color. So I have to find a way to make carrot juice without a juicer. A blender will maybe do the job.


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## Rune (Mar 21, 2017)

shunt2011 said:


> Also, if you plan on making 100% castille  it's not a very good soap and needs to cure a very long time.  A year and it's an okay soap.



A year, hmm. Yes, I don't know how long it have to cure except that it has to be at least 4 months. I saw testing done in South Africa, one lady that had several castile soaps from several curing times, and there was little difference from 4 months and upward, the did only get a little harder. BUT, that is South Africa, a hot country. This country is cold and humid. So I had calculated that I have to cure at least 5 months. But maybe it will need a full year. And that is why I am so afraid of DOS. The longer time it cures, the higher the chances are for the free flowing oils to go rancid.

I will anyway add some stearic acid or other rock hard waxes. Both so it can unmold without waiting a week, and that it gets a little extra hardness to make it last longer in the shower.

If other fats, like coconut and so on, where available here for an okey price, then I would most likely had decided on some sort of Bastille soap recipe. The only place I can get coconut oil for an acceptable price, is if I order online from abroad. But that is a pain like no other. Because we have nazi customs. They stop every single parcel, and if you are very, very lucky and good to make up stories, they let the parcel pass thru customs without sending you a bill with a $25 fee and 25% VAT. We can order for a value no more than $41 INCLUDED the price for the shipping. So I can't get much coconut oil for that price.

There is another way, and that is to mail the company and ask if they can send the parcel from a private person's name and wrap it as a present. Like write happy birthday all over it and such. That works, but you see, it is so much work ordering online from abroad, that oils and fats are the last thing I want to buy. There are no Norwegian suppliers either, apart from health stores with their hefty prices. So I have to use what I can find in grocery stores. And luckily, olive oil is so cheap it is almost for free. We have coconut fat in stores as well, but that is for baking and the price is quite a lot for only 250 grams. The price for 250 grams of coconut is around the same as for 4000 grams (4 litre) of olive oil. So that's why it has to be castile soaps. At least I will start there first, since I am not rich at the moment. 

But coconut and such are available if I ask a bakery to order it for me. Their suppliers have all sorts of fats, and I guess the prices are lower than in grocery stores, and in bigger packages. Like 10 kilos or so.


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## Rune (Mar 21, 2017)

Here is a list of things with very high antioxidant levels:

https://www.superfoodly.com/orac-values/

Dragon's blood, that should do the trick. But I imagine that it is very, very expensive, and it will not dissolve in oil easily. Astaxanthin powder is maybe easier to use.


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## IrishLass (Mar 21, 2017)

Rune said:


> A great idea! I have been thinking about that, sort of. Because in Sweden they have all sorts of concentrated juice packages.


 
I don't mean to burst your soap bubble or anything  , but just be aware that the natural colors from juices are not pH stable enough to last very long in lye-based soap without having a little 'help' from pH-stable colorants such as micas or oxides or ultramarines. I've made several batches of carrot soap and also cucumber soap (I juice the peel and all to get that lovely emerald green), and the colors do morph over time. The lovely orange morphs to a muddy color and the cucumber to a khaki-like color. But if I add a little orange mica and TD to the carrot juice or a little chromium hydroxide green and TD to the cucumber juice, the colors stay true. 

Also- the antioxidant levels in juices are not concentrated enough to be able to do the job demanded of soap such as ROE or BHT would do. 


IrishLass


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## SunRiseArts (Mar 21, 2017)

Rune said:


> A great idea! I have been thinking about that, sort of. Because in Sweden they have all sorts of concentrated juice packages. A small package that you must dillute at home, it gives 1 litre. But I found out that every single one of them had citric acid added to them, and I thought no, that will destroy the lye. But now I hear that citric acid is a wanted ingrediens. So I will buy some of those juices. The only problem is that I don't know how much citric acid they contain. But I guess that is possible to find out. It is especially the lingonberry juice I want to make soap with. That juice is bright red and taste fantastic! They also have blueberry juice and much more. And they are dead cheap. Here in Norway, nothing like that exists. We have only regular fruit juices and not very many to choose from. And they are not cheap either. To juice fruits and vegetables myself is at the moment not an option, because I then have to buy a fruit juicer. Not that they aren't cheap, but it's easier to just buy premade. And there will be no clutter from unused kitchen appliances all over the place. Plus vegetables and fruits are expensive here. We are so far north that the shipping from Southern Europe, where they are produced, is extreme. Paprika costs around $5,50 per kilo, for example. One cucumber is around $1,70. But I want to make a carrot soap. And there is no carrot juice nowhere to be found here or in Sweden, except from a very expensive and very bad tasting one with muddy color. So I have to find a way to make carrot juice without a juicer. A blender will maybe do the job.


 
I understand what others are saying. If you decide to use the juice you do need to be very careful adding the lye, or the sugar can burn, but I am all up for experimenting! I learned to make soap watching soaping 101 and soap queen channels on you tube. Nobody in my family is a soap makes, and I grew up as a city sleeker! lol Soaping101 does a lot of experimenting. Some of it I question, like using grass and leaves, as many people could have allergic reaction, but I am all up for trying new things. I love learning!

One of the first soaps I made, and I loved was the carrot puree soap. Is made with baby food. There are so many options in baby food, but not sure which ones can work. I have been wondering about applesauce. Has anyone ever tried it? I am curious. I do make sure to get GMO free and organic baby food. I am thinking of trying the beet one next. They do not need extra color or scent. Mine is already 8 weeks old, and still looks like when I cut it. I love it.

Here is the recipe I used if it helps:
http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/education/recipes/pureed-carrot-cold-process-soap.aspx


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## SunRiseArts (Mar 21, 2017)

How about tea IrishLass?  have you ever used tea instead of lye water?  Does it give color or change?


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## cherrycoke216 (Mar 21, 2017)

Rune said:


> Here is a list of things with very high antioxidant levels:
> 
> https://www.superfoodly.com/orac-values/
> 
> Dragon's blood, that should do the trick. But I imagine that it is very, very expensive, and it will not dissolve in oil easily. Astaxanthin powder is maybe easier to use.




Astaxathin is used as an anti-aging cosmetics ingredient. So you can imagine it's not a cheap ingredient for you to put in oils to use as anti-oxidant. Its facial product has been a hit in Japan and Asia.


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## Brynhilde (Mar 23, 2017)

Rune said:


> Do you use the vitamin E capsules from Costco, from Kirkland Signature brand? That and another capsule is the only one I can find at costco.com. I should be able to find vitamin E capsules at a local health food store or the pharmacy, maybe cheaper than the liquid vitamin E.
> 
> I googled it now, and it is superexpensive here. And you get maximum 60 capsules. So that is not an option.
> 
> ...



Have you checked the norwegian netstore sunvita? If you buy there, you don't have to worry about customs.


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## cmzaha (Mar 23, 2017)

beardguy said:


> Since I buy all my lard from Walmart, I don't want DOS and I don't give two you know what about scaremongering (and I'm not looking to sell), where do you buy BHT or EDTA for that matter ? I checked with the online soap suppliers I have bought from (Saffire Blue, Voyageur soap and New Directions) and none of them seem to have BHT or EDTA.


Making cosmetics.com carries BHT and so does this one. I did not compare shipping  http://myworldhut.com/products/BHT-...ne)-Powder-Food%2dGrade-Antioxidant-Bulk.html

I would rather add in a tiny pinch of additional BHT and not lose a batch of soap. Several brands of lard have bht added


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 23, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> Several brands of lard have bht added


I didn't know that! I have currently have Morrell Snow Cap Lard -- _"With hydrogenated lard, BHT and BHA added to help protect flavor"_. Hmmmm.  Thanks for the head's up, (((Carolyn))).


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## cerelife (Mar 24, 2017)

When I clicked on the link, I did notice that she mentions that she has successfully used olive oil purchased from places like Sam's Club (which is where I buy my olive oil) toward the end of the article. So the article is kind of misleading and obviously meant to steer soapers toward Brambleberry products. It seems like they intentionally chose small grocery stores and off-brands to create failures. I personally don't use extra virgin, virgin, or lite olive oils.
None of my 1+ year old castile soaps have developed DOS nor gave me any trouble while soaping. I'm one of those weirdos who like castile (sorry Shunt!) and my Rosemary Peppermint castile is my 'go-to' facial soap because it's mild and has a little coolness/tingle to it that feels good on my face


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## Susie (Mar 24, 2017)

SunRiseArts said:


> How about tea IrishLass?  have you ever used tea instead of lye water?  Does it give color or change?



It gives you a blechy tan color no matter what color you start with.  So very disappointing!


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## DeeAnna (Mar 24, 2017)

Another thing to keep in mind -- I'm catching a flavor in this conversation that people might be assuming ANY antioxidant will work for protecting fats and soap. Antioxidants that work with living tissues are not necessarily effective when protecting non-living material.


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## Rune (Mar 24, 2017)

Brynhilde said:


> Have you checked the norwegian netstore sunvita? If you buy there, you don't have to worry about customs.



Tusen takk  I am looking at that store just now. And they have a lot of different things. Not very cheap, but considered the potential very high customs fee by ordering abroad, and that one really should support Norwegian businesses, it's maybe better to buy from Sunvita than from abroad.


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## Rune (Mar 24, 2017)

IrishLass said:


> I don't mean to burst your soap bubble or anything  , but just be aware that the natural colors from juices are not pH stable enough to last very long in lye-based soap without having a little 'help' from pH-stable colorants such as micas or oxides or ultramarines. I've made several batches of carrot soap and also cucumber soap (I juice the peel and all to get that lovely emerald green), and the colors do morph over time. The lovely orange morphs to a muddy color and the cucumber to a khaki-like color. But if I add a little orange mica and TD to the carrot juice or a little chromium hydroxide green and TD to the cucumber juice, the colors stay true.
> 
> Also- the antioxidant levels in juices are not concentrated enough to be able to do the job demanded of soap such as ROE or BHT would do.
> 
> ...



Thank you  Who wants brownish, muddy and dull colours, so yes, that was a very useful tip to add some pigments or micas. I am also concerned about the scent, if that will morph into something unpleasant? Like rotten smell or anything.


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 24, 2017)

My mama always said, "If ya can't fight 'em, join 'em!" So I'm joining in on the HIJACK to colorants! YAY! Hopefully I won't raise too much of a fuss...

When I first started soaping, since I couldn't afford fancy colorants, I used CRAYOLA crayons to color CP/HP soap. They not only add color, but seem to add hardness and lather as well (that part could be just my imagination. LOL) Cerulean Blue is gorgeous and my personal favorite! They create awesome jewel tones in transparent soap.  

- Use a whole (3”) Crayola in 3 lb batch; or 1” ppo.
- Toss in at trace in CP or at the end of the cook in HP. 
- Melts easily. Let set a minute before stirring in.
- Some colors work better than others. See Miller’s site for details. Scroll down the page about 2/3 of the way.

http://millersoap.com/soapingred.html

MORE INFO

1) I use only CRAYOLA Crayons. According to Smith-Binney, the manufacturer, Crayolas are certified non-toxic to assure the products contain no known toxic or harmful substances in sufficient quantities to be harmful to the human body, even if ingested. To my mind, and with all due respect to those who would disagree, this is just me -- if they’re safe enough for toddlers to chew on, they’re safe enough to soap with.

2) The best time to buy them is the month or so before school starts. I get the 16-count box of the Original colors. I picked up a dozen boxes for 25¢ each at an Office Depot  BACK-TO-SCHOOL SALE one year. 

3) Label Ingredients: Paraffin wax, stearic acid and powder color pigment. 
Each of those ingredients is GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) and they are found in any number of B & B (Bath & Beauty) products.

4) Usage Rate: 1” per pound of oils. Be sure to peel off the wrapper! LOL

5) Grate really fine to mix colors. 

6) How to Use - (Do this before you start the recipe.) For 1 pound of soap: Pour 2 teaspoons of olive oil in a small microwave safe dish. Add 1” of Crayola (whole, pieces, or grated). Nuke on high in the microwave for 20 seconds. Let sit for a few seconds, then mix thoroughly. Warm again if necessary. Add at trace (CP) or after cook (HP).

NOTE: If you only need a teaspoon or so for a small batch, the rest solidifies, keeps well, and easily melts again for another time. (I like to do this with White Crayola for my Wannabe White soaps).


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## SunRiseArts (Mar 24, 2017)

Rune said:


> Thank you  Who wants brownish, muddy and dull colours, so yes, that was a very useful tip to add some pigments or micas. I am also concerned about the scent, if that will morph into something unpleasant? Like rotten smell or anything.


 

There is no smell whatsoever in the end product.  I also have made beer soap, and there is no beer smell, or perhaps way to subtle in it.  Same with the carrot puree.  I normally use a FO that will complement what I believe the vegetables or fruits are.

Also I wanted to ask more experience people here.  I was thinking about this thread and the fact that the antioxidants do not carry to the end product, but if that is so, then how come safflower, or avocado oil that are rich in vitamin E for example, does become part of the soap after saponification?  Nothing of the fruits survive?  Nor even its nutritional value?

Please forgive my ignorance, hopefully is not a silly question.  Chemistry was never my thing ....:think:


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## SoapSap (Mar 24, 2017)

What is BHT?


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## cmzaha (Mar 25, 2017)

SoapSap said:


> What is BHT?


You can find the info here http://www.makingcosmetics.com/BHT_p_52.html


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## WeaversPort (Mar 25, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> When I first started soaping, since I couldn't afford fancy colorants, I used CRAYOLA crayons to color CP/HP soap. They not only add color, but seem to add hardness and lather as well (that part could be just my imagination. LOL) Cerulean Blue is gorgeous and my personal favorite! They create awesome jewel tones in transparent soap.
> 
> - Use a whole (3”) Crayola in 3 lb batch; or 1” ppo.
> - Toss in at trace in CP or at the end of the cook in HP.
> ...



*CRAYOLA!! * I feel like an angel choir just sang out in the back of my head.. This is awesome news for the newbie here!!


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## shunt2011 (Mar 25, 2017)

I would never ever use crayons. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Just my opinion. Yes, they are non toxic, but, they are not made for skin use.


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## Rune (Apr 2, 2017)

So much to think about and so many new ideas! Crayola, that is a new one, but wow how genius! If it is only pigments and waxes, so why not?

Astaxanthin is very expensive as a supplement or anti-aging. But, guess what, it is also sold as fish food for aquarium gold fish and such. And that is not expensive. I found one, I can't remember where, and it was said to be pure astaxanthin.


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## Rune (Apr 2, 2017)

I found it! http://www.yourfishstuff.com/natural-astaxanthin-powder


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## Rune (Apr 2, 2017)

Oops, forget it. I thought it was pure astaxanthin, but it's not. When I pressed "ingredients", it is only 21 grams astaxanthin per kilo. And the rest of the ingredients are maybe fishy. So, not a good idea at all.


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## Rune (Apr 2, 2017)

I don't think I understand how oils get rancid. I mean, I understand it if it's a pure oil, but what if that oil is mixed with something else? Lets say you mix hemp oil with fractionated coconut oil. Will the fractionated coconut protect the hemp oil so that it will have a prolonged shelf life? Or, will the hemp portion in the mixture go rancid just as fast while the coconut stay fresh? Are the oils in a mixture to be seen as separate oils or do they form a unity that has it's own shelf life. Like if you mix something that go rancid tomorrow and something that go rancid in 10 years. Will the shelf life be like 5 years?

The oils that don't go rancid fast, there is a reason for that, depending on what oil it is and how it has been treated. So will that thing that protects them from rancidity migrate over to other oils? Let's say cold pressed virgin coconut oil that has infinite life time. That is because of a high amount of antioxidants. While refined coconut will go rancid (unless it's fractionated). So those antioxidants should migrate over, I think. That makes sense. But I'm as far from beeing an expert as anyone can be.

So what about pine tar, that has also infinite shelf life, I think. Will some pine tar added to let's say olive oil protect the olive oil from going rancid too fast? Hmm...? What'ya think?


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## Susie (Apr 2, 2017)

Fractionated coconut oil is not the coconut oil commonly used in CP soapmaking.  The "76 degree" version is what most of us use.  And if you mix a high linoleic fatty acid oil into a soap batter, and it goes rancid, the whole batch goes rancid and you get DOS.  Best to avoid using too much high linoleic fatty acid oils in CP, I think the conventional wisdom on that is 15%, but if I am incorrect, please feel free to correct me.


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## SaltedFig (Apr 2, 2017)

Rune said:


> I don't think I understand how oils get rancid. I mean, I understand it if it's a pure oil, but what if that oil is mixed with something else? ..."



Hi Rune!

This article might be of some help to you: http://www.gcca.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/RancidityAntioxidants.pdf

There are a few ways oils can go rancid. Rancidity is the oil structure breaking down. Some oils (as you have noted) break down slower than others.

The reasons oils break down can be from exposure to oxygen, or by being contaminated by bacteria, or when water is added (water acts as a catalyst for a lot of different reactions, but makes the breaking down of the oil "easier").

Exposure to heat and sunlight can hasten rancidity as well.

"Delicate" oils are oils that become rancid, or break down, quickly or more easily than other oils.

Sometimes mixing oils can help (I believe this works by dilution), but only if it is before rancidity has occurred.

Once an oil has broken down, I don't believe that it can be put back together again


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## Rune (Apr 2, 2017)

Fractionated coconut was just an example, not the best example, but I know that is not what is used. Aha, okey, I did not know that about linoleic fatty acids. Thank you  I have now found out that olive oil has 12% linoleic acid. So if a wax is added, that has 0% linoleic, the total will luckily go down to well under the safety limit.

I must really try to whip up a batch of soap soon. I have not done anything at all, because my job was killing me. So I don't had any energy to soap. And I have not yet placed and order for supplies. That should have been done weeks ago. But I took a bar of the soap I have on curing. And it does feel drying. Even if it is a 100% olive oil soap, if I remember right. It does lather very well also. Something is fishy around here, hmm, but what?

So I want to try hot process next. I came across a genius method, almost magical, and perfect since I don't have a crockpot (and don't want to buy one either). It is the high temperature hot process method, where the soap cooks by itself in a hurry. I want to try hot process, because then I can add acids to get the PH down, and I can cure it for a shorter time, hopefully, so that I can test it quicker and see if it is okey or not. I don't really want to whip up a bunch of cold processed soaps, wait for months for then to find out that all of them is more or less a failure in one or another way. But in the end, I really want to do cold process more than hot process because of the design possibilities. But maybe I will like hot process a lot, I don't know. I will try anyway. I finally have a stick blender, and I have bought some nice paper cupcake molds from the grocery store, and I have some essential oils. So I can make something without further supplies. For colorants, I can just use turmeric and rosehip tea, for example. I want to use rosehip tea in the recipe anyway, because it is so acidic, and I want the PH down to see if I can tolerate the soap better. I have very sensitive skin on my hands, but not elsewhere on the body, and in this winther months, the air and cold dries out the hands. But it must be added after the cook, though.


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## cherrycoke216 (Apr 2, 2017)

Rune, the 100% olive oil soap lathers well... Probably because most of olive oil brands have been adulterated( mix other cheaper oil and sell it as higher priced olive oil or extra virgin olive oil) 
And adding citric acid won't bring the PH down. It will be more superfat. At one point, you add too much citric acid, the soap will become oily mess and not a soap anymore. Whether you add it before or after cook.

And you cure hot process soap longer because you need it to be fluid enough to not become a dry paste. (The soap forms crystal structure during cure, lose water, and ph goes down,too. )


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 2, 2017)

Rune said:


> I found it! http://www.yourfishstuff.com/natural-astaxanthin-powder


COOL! As it happens, I have some 4mg capsules here... they are indeed deep red! 
Hmmm   :think:


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## DeeAnna (Apr 2, 2017)

"...I must really try to whip up a batch of soap soon. I have not done anything at all, because my job was killing me. So I don't had any energy to soap...."

I've been reading your posts, but I've chosen to not participate. I think it's now time to say something. 

It seems to me that you don't have energy because you are spending it asking many questions that lead you down non-productive side tracks. Once someone responds to one of your questions, then you're off running down the next side track. First it was antioxidants, next it was crayons and astaxanthin and such, now it's preventing rancidity with waxes and using high temp hot process with the expectation of a fast cure. It's like watching a high-energy toddler running wild around the house after a good nap.

If you really want to make soap, then FOCUS and make soap.


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## cmzaha (Apr 2, 2017)

mx6inpenn said:


> If you are buying the armour brand lard, it has BHT added.


My lard contains BHT but was not quite enough to keep it from going dossy. Ask anyone here who I sent samples to when I was testing 100% different brands of lard. So I chose to use a pinch (by measuring spoon) in my soap, which contains 60 oz oils


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## cmzaha (Apr 2, 2017)

Rune said:


> Here is a list of things with very high antioxidant levels:
> 
> https://www.superfoodly.com/orac-values/
> 
> Dragon's blood, that should do the trick. But I imagine that it is very, very expensive, and it will not dissolve in oil easily. Astaxanthin powder is maybe easier to use.


Dragon's Blood Resin is extremely red so you would have to watch how much you use. I have crushed and infused it in oil by using a mini crock pot, to use as a red coloring in my Dragon's Blood soap. It has does not have much scent so does not remotely compare to DB fragrance oil.


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## crazy_lil_Mom (Apr 18, 2017)

I use store bought olive oil from our local Walmart & Sam's club here since we don't have a Costco or Kirklands. I've never had a problem! I've been soaping for over 4 years since re-starting after a hiatus for a few years.


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