# Ascorbic Acid (vitamin c)



## ComplexBeauty (Oct 19, 2014)

I recently purchase luxurious goat milk soap from a farmers market and listed as an ingredient is ascorbic acid. I have never heard of vitamin c being used in cp and was wondering what value it has being added.
Thank you.


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## Moody Glenn (Oct 20, 2014)

Hello! Good question and glad you asked. I believe the only benefit is to the seller of the soap. :thumbdown: I seriously doubt it would remain in the soap since this acid reacting with a strong base (lye) creates a new, different substance - a salt - like the fatty acids that are used to make the soap. Anyway, many nutrients will not survive the lye and any leftovers would wash off your body very quickly without any benefits.

It is just for name recognition. I could add all sorts of vitamins to soap but as long I don't say anything about health benefits I am free to do so - as long as I label them in the ingredients. Unethical? I say yes, other people may say no. That soaper just added the Vitamin C and let the customer fill in the blanks as to how the soap will be healthy and beneficial when used.


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## Earthen_Step (Oct 20, 2014)

I wouldn't call it unethical.  What is the salt byproduct?  What does it do for the skin?  I have added apple cider vinegar to soap and was very pleased with the results.  I don't know what was created with the lye in the creation but I did like it.  Ascorbic and citric acid may create a similar feel as vinegar, it might be worth trying -- I might try it sometime to see what I think.  That soaper may be very satisfied with the results of adding vitamin C and not be a con artist in the least.

Overall it may just dilute the Lye and increase the SF%


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## thebeck (Oct 20, 2014)

She might be using it to retard spoilage?


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## sassanellat (Oct 21, 2014)

thebeck said:


> She might be using it to retard spoilage?



In living cells, damage to cell lipids by free radicals can be limited by a combination of vitamins C & E, but  Ireally can't imagine why she'd add C alone. It is technically an antioxidant, but only in water soluble settings. Vitamin E is fat-soluble, so that's why it's added to soaps and other (mostly) anhydrous products.


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## ComplexBeauty (Oct 21, 2014)

Earthen_Step said:


> I wouldn't call it unethical.  What is the salt byproduct?  What does it do for the skin?  I have added apple cider vinegar to soap and was very pleased with the results.  I don't know what was created with the lye in the creation but I did like it.  Ascorbic and citric acid may create a similar feel as vinegar, it might be worth trying -- I might try it sometime to see what I think.  That soaper may be very satisfied with the results of adding vitamin C and not be a con artist in the least.
> 
> Overall it may just dilute the Lye and increase the SF%



Hi there, thanks for the reply. How do you go about adding your apple cider vinegar to you cp? And what are the pleasing results you have encountered in doing so?


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## Earthen_Step (Oct 22, 2014)

ComplexBeauty said:


> Hi there, thanks for the reply. How do you go about adding your apple cider vinegar to you cp? And what are the pleasing results you have encountered in doing so?



I will tell you some info in a pm.  Secrets are fun.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 22, 2014)

Earthen_Step said:


> I will tell you some info in a pm. Secrets are fun.


 
But in a forum based around sharing information about soaping............a little bit odd, don't you think? :thumbdown:


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## Earthen_Step (Oct 22, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But in a forum based around sharing information about soaping............a little bit odd, don't you think? :thumbdown:



No, I hold back a lot on the forums.  Especially on things about healing qualities of ingredients.  I am using my business name which limits my free speech.  Trade secrets and things that could turn my product into a drug can and should be withheld (self preservation).  If I were using an anonymous name I would be much more liberal in my speech.


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## AMyers (Oct 22, 2014)

ComplexBeauty said:


> I recently purchase luxurious goat milk soap from a farmers market and listed as an ingredient is ascorbic acid. I have never heard of vitamin c being used in cp and was wondering what value it has being added.
> Thank you.


You know, I had no idea why this might happen, until I picked up a tub of lard at my grocery store.  I've not made any soap with lard or tallow yet, but I want to!  The lard at my store has ascorbic acid in it.  I didn't purchase that 4lb tub of lard, as I was hoping to find a smaller container to start with.  

Is it possible that the soap you saw was made with lard, and the maker was just listing all the ingredients from their container of lard?


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## Earthen_Step (Oct 22, 2014)

AMyers said:


> You know, I had no idea why this might happen, until I picked up a tub of lard at my grocery store.  I've not made any soap with lard or tallow yet, but I want to!  The lard at my store has ascorbic acid in it.  I didn't purchase that 4lb tub of lard, as I was hoping to find a smaller container to start with.
> 
> Is it possible that the soap you saw was made with lard, and the maker was just listing all the ingredients from their container of lard?



That could very well be.  Looking around a little bit I found lard with citric acid added (as a preservative).  

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/armour-lard-25lb/199699.ip


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## IrishLass (Oct 22, 2014)

AMyers said:


> Is it possible that the soap you saw was made with lard, and the maker was just listing all the ingredients from their container of lard?


 
 You make a valid point.


 IrishLass


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## Hazel (Oct 22, 2014)

ComplexBeauty said:


> How do you go about adding your apple cider vinegar to you cp?



Since this is a forum that emphasizes helping others learn and expand their skills,  I have some apple cider vinegar and I'll make a batch to let you know the results. I probably won't be able to make it until Sunday. I'm just going to use my basic bath bar recipe (see below). However, I'd like to challenge other people to try ACV with one of their basic recipes and let us know how it turns out. :grin:

30% lard
30% olive oil
25% coconut oil
10% sunflower oil (I use high oleic)
5% castor oil


Anyway, there have been discussions about using ACV in soap so I thought I'd post some links which you may find helpful. I didn't bother posting the link from a 2008 discussion because it wasn't helpful at all.

This one will answer your question about adding ACV to a batch.   http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=42734

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=35563

Discussion about how much hotter lye and vinegar get when combined. http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49491&page=2


Off topic here but I wanted to mention if people don't care to contribute to the forum, please do not hint at having some proprietary knowledge that you don't want to publicly share. Just don't mention it and PM the person you want to share the info with and then it will be your "secret". :shh:

To mention something is a secret on an open forum is not only insulting but also demeaning towards members who generously share tips, techniques and knowledge to help other members. It demonstrates disrespect toward members who have spent countless hours helping others and gives the implication the information they've posted doesn't have value since it is public. This forum is a wonderful resource for people to learn about soapmaking. It wouldn't have been possible without the unselfishness of former and current members to contribute their knowledge and experience in building it.


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## Susie (Oct 22, 2014)

Hazel said:


> Off topic here but I wanted to mention if people don't care to contribute to the forum, please do not hint at having some proprietary knowledge that you don't want to publicly share. Just don't mention it and PM the person you want to share the info with and then it will be your "secret". :shh:
> 
> To mention something is a secret on an open forum is not only insulting but also demeaning towards members who generously share tips, techniques and knowledge to help other members. It demonstrates disrespect toward members who have spent countless hours helping others and gives the implication the information they've posted doesn't have value since it is public. This forum is a wonderful resource for people to learn about soapmaking. It wouldn't have been possible without the unselfishness of former and current members to contribute their knowledge and experience in building it.


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## Relle (Oct 23, 2014)

I agree Hazel, you said it well.:clap:


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## shunt2011 (Oct 23, 2014)

Very well stated Hazel (as always!)  I'll give ACV a try.  Won't be able to do it till next weekend.  Will post how it works or doesn't work for me.


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## dosco (Oct 23, 2014)

Earthen_Step said:


> No, I hold back a lot on the forums.  Especially on things about healing qualities of ingredients.
> 
> Trade secrets and things that could turn my product into a drug can and should be withheld (self preservation).



That's interesting. So what you're saying is that there are things in your soap, that if you claim certain things about these compounds, could result in your soap being reclassified as a "drug" ...?


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## DeeAnna (Oct 23, 2014)

To answer your curiosity, Dosco, about whether a soap could be classified as a drug per USA law, yes, that is quite possible. My lowly pine tar soap qualifies if I claim anything other than it gets a body clean.

And regarding an important point made in this discussion -- Hear, hear, Hazel! Well said.


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## Earthen_Step (Oct 23, 2014)

I apologize to you all and meant no disrespect. I can see how this was taken as such.  I have a lot on my mind and have not had much time on the forums lately.  Even right now as I'm responding I have multiple things I'm doing on the computer, pausing this response to answer my kids questions, getting ready to work outside on a project after I start laundry and other such fun things... Enough excuses though, my quick responses should have been thought out more carefully.  

I'll share some info that hopefully helps some.  I added the apple cider vinegar at light trace and there seemed to be no adverse reactions.  I did not notice any extra heat or accelerations.  I have only added this in micro batches in testing new theories.  I have only tested up to around 15 grams per 120 grams of oil.  I cannot say if going above this amount will cause problems, but I had no issues below this amount.  I have not tested adding the vinegar to the lye mixture, only the soap at light trace.  I still have a lot of testing to do before I make a full batch.  If I have any horrible reactions I'll share, I do not want anyone to get hurt or completely ruin a batch of soap if I can prevent it.

I should not have hinted at anything and just sent out a PM and shared the above info initially. Lesson learned the hard way, sorry again.



dosco said:


> That's interesting. So what you're saying is that there are things in your soap, that if you claim certain things about these compounds, could result in your soap being reclassified as a "drug" ...?




If I said anything about any ingredient that heals in any way, that turns any soap I sell with that ingredient into a drug.  The FDA could harass me because of this if they were bored enough -- or I got big enough.

http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceRegulation/LawsRegulations/ucm074201.htm


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## DeeAnna (Oct 23, 2014)

At a 5% acetic solution, 30 g of commercial vinegar (white, cider, or whatever -- it makes no difference) will neutralize 1 g of NaOH or 1.4 g of KOH. The result is sodium or potassium acetate. 

If I use commercial vinegar for all of the "water" in my favorite soap recipe, the vinegar would increase the superfat from my usual 5% to a substantial 12%. If you use an 8% superfat, a "vinegar-ized" soap would end up being superfatted closer to 15%.

Citric acid also can be used in soap, so for those who are wondering:
Typical dosage: 10 g citric acid for every 1,000 g oils (1% ppo)
10 g citric acid neutralizes 6 g NaOH
10 g citric acid neutralizes 8 g KOH


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## Earthen_Step (Oct 23, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> At a 5% acetic solution, 30 g of commercial vinegar (white, cider, or whatever -- it makes no difference) will neutralize 1 g of NaOH or 1.4 g of KOH. The result is sodium or potassium acetate.
> 
> If I use commercial vinegar for all of the "water" in my favorite soap recipe, the vinegar would increase the superfat from my usual 5% to a substantial 12%. If you use an 8% superfat, a "vinegar-ized" soap would end up being superfatted closer to 15%.
> 
> ...



I love your posts, thanks for all your efforts.  Off to house work, have a nice day everyone.


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## Hazel (Oct 30, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> At a 5% acetic solution, 30 g of commercial vinegar (white, cider, or whatever -- it makes no difference) will neutralize 1 g of NaOH or 1.4 g of KOH. The result is sodium or potassium acetate.
> 
> If I use commercial vinegar for all of the "water" in my favorite soap recipe, the vinegar would increase the superfat from my usual 5% to a substantial 12%. If you use an 8% superfat, a "vinegar-ized" soap would end up being superfatted closer to 15%.




  I’m sorry it took so long to get back about making the ACV soap. I did make it on Sunday but this week has been hectic. 

  I decided to use ACV for the entire liquid so by using Deanna’s figures as shown in the above quote, I calculated how much ACV would “neutralize” the lye and then figured how much of a lye discount I would need to get a 5% SF. I ended up stopping at 0% lye discount and the SF was still higher than I wanted for the recipe. I didn't want to use a minus lye discount so I wimped out and decided to make a salt bar. I used 12% lye discount and calculated that it would end up with approximately a 20% SF with the ACV amount.

  Since the ACV sounded like it might be on the astringent side, I decided to use Dead Sea Mud (thanks to the generosity of Pepsi Girl who sent me some to play with) and rhassoul clay (red Morocco). 

  I poured a little of the ACV into 2 cups so I could make a slurry for the DSM and the clay. Both of them fizzed like bath bombs. The clay not so much but the DSM really fizzed up. I was surprised because I hadn’t expected either to be so alkaline. I learned something new.  Batch accelerated but I don’t know if it was because of the ACV or the FO blend. I’ll have to try the FO in a regular batch. Anyway, it was hard to stuff in the cavities since it got so stiff so the bars are a little rough in appearance. I posted a picture in the Photo Gallery. http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49761

  I added the lye to the rest of the ACV and was again surprised because I thought it smelled good. The soap seemed to want to crumble a bit the next day when I unmolded the bars. This is unusual because I use individual cavities and normally don’t have crumbling with salt bars. I also used less salt than normal – approximately 32% compared to the usual 70%.  So, I’m wondering if this was caused by the ACV. However, they seemed fine a couple of days later so if I decide to make this batch again, I’ll know to leave them sit at least 48 hours before unmolding. Because I just couldn’t wait, I tried a little bit from some of the leftover from the bars. The lather appeared the same as usual but it seemed drier feeling than normal. However, this could be from trying it the next day. I normally cure salt bars 6 weeks but I’ll probably try it at 3 weeks and then 4 weeks I don’t know if the ACV will contribute anything to the soap so it will be interesting to see if there is a difference when I start to test.

My next experiment - soleseife and ACV.


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## Hazel (Nov 28, 2014)

Another apology - I forgot to check at 4 weeks. Aren’t holidays fun? I was busy and just forgot about the soap. I hope everyone who celebrated Thanksgiving had a wonderful time. For those who don’t celebrate it, I hope you had a good week. :grin:

Anyway, I checked one of my regular spa bars and the lather has much larger bubbles and a little less creamy. I don’t think it’s a very good comparison since I used more CO in it and also in the ACV one, I added shea butter which normally I don’t use in my salt bar batches. So, I’m wondering if the shea butter, DSM and clay suppressed the bubbles a little. No biggie, if so because the lather is still nice. 

It still doesn’t seem like a particularly hard bar as salt bars go but it’s comparable to regular soap. Again, this could be because I used half the usual amount of salt. It still seems a little drier to my skin. I don’t know if this is because of the combination of ACV, DSM and clay or if the ACV did not neutralize as much lye as I had calculated. I used it on my face and still found it caused some tingling but my skin felt very soft afterwards. However, I was surprised and pleased by how it cleaned my pores. Dryness is worth putting up with for this benefit. I don’t know if this had anything to do with ACV or the other additives. I’m going to have to experiment and see which one or if it’s the combination which produced this result.


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## flavapor (Nov 29, 2014)

ComplexBeauty said:


> I recently purchase luxurious goat milk soap from a farmers market and listed as an ingredient is ascorbic acid. I have never heard of vitamin c being used in cp and was wondering what value it has being added.
> Thank you.


 
 My thought  is that is was added to reduce the ph of the soap.


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## flavapor (Nov 29, 2014)

Hazel said:


> I’m sorry it took so long to get back about making the ACV soap. I did make it on Sunday but this week has been hectic.
> 
> I decided to use ACV for the entire liquid so by using Deanna’s figures as shown in the above quote, I calculated how much ACV would “neutralize” the lye and then figured how much of a lye discount I would need to get a 5% SF. I ended up stopping at 0% lye discount and the SF was still higher than I wanted for the recipe. I didn't want to use a minus lye discount so I wimped out and decided to make a salt bar. I used 12% lye discount and calculated that it would end up with approximately a 20% SF with the ACV amount.
> 
> ...


 
 I think its a mix of the clay and ACV.  I use that on my daughters mud scrubs when we do face masks.  I use yogurt or buttermilk for my mature skin and she uses acv.  I have used acv and a drawing clay like Moroccan clay and it really does take the oils out but I need my oils in so I use kaolin clay most of the time for my mature skin.


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## Hazel (Nov 29, 2014)

Thanks for the info. I'm sure you're correct about the ACV and clay.

I love buttermilk! It's been interesting since I used to think goat milk was the preferred choice based upon what I read. It just appeared more popular and there was a lot of info on it. However, I'm getting more requests for buttermilk soap than goat milk which is fine with me since I prefer it. I thought it was funny when my youngest sister showed up Thursday night. She walked in with a huge grin on her face and said "I brought you a present". Then she handed me a container of buttermilk. She's so subtle.  

I generally use kaolin, too. However, I planned on giving this soap to a nephew which is why I went with the red clay. I should send a bar of it to a niece to test and see what she thinks of it. The DSM I used because a friend had sent me some to play with and I really wanted to try it.


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## flavapor (Nov 29, 2014)

Yes buttermilk is quite nice.  I have used my daughters acv and rhassoul clay mask and it shriveled my skin but it makes her younger oily skin quite nice.


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## shunt2011 (Nov 29, 2014)

Buttermilk is my personal favorite to use in my soaps.  I now pretty much use Buttermilk, cream or GM (for a couple)


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