# Rehab the hair (or how to get away from lye based shampoo)?



## szaza (Aug 8, 2018)

Hello! 

A couple of months ago a friend gave me one of her shampoo bars and I've been hooked! But after reading some horror stories on this forum I kind of want to get un-hooked.. I don't want to go back to regular shampoo, because my hair only looks good for one day and then it's not yet dirty or oily but just bleh.. nothing can be done with it to make it look nice. I felt with lye soap my hair had more 'texture', but having waist-lenght hair I don't want to risk having to cut it all. Basically, I have 3 questions (should I have split this in 3 threads? I wasn't sure)

1. Before lye based soap I used clays for a while, but they made my hair gunky. I'm wondering if I could play around with clays to find a better way to use them. For now, I've only used french green and pink clays, because I had them on hand. Maybe I should try another type of clay like Rhassoul. Does anyone have any experience with this? 
2. Are there any syndet-shampoo makers here that can give some tips on how to look for a good syndet based shampoo? I'm not going to start to make any myself for now, but it would be nice to have some more insight in what different ingredients bring to the table and what to look for or avoid. Right now, all the syndet ingredients look like wizarding spells to me.
3. In the transition period away from lye soap I might still use it once in a while.. does anyone have any idea or an educated guess on how often I could still use lye soap without too big a risk? I now wash my hair about once a week, would it be possible to use lye soap once every month or so?


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## dixiedragon (Aug 8, 2018)

Do you use Reddit? It's a ginormous forum with many many many subforums. One of those is entirely devoted to long hair. Google Reddit and Long Hair. You might be able to find other users in Belgium who could direct you to specific products.

I have very very, very thick long hair. I wash about every 3 days (wash 1 day, skip 2 days, wash again). I am really really liking the Lush shampoo bars, especially Honey I washed the kids and Jason and the Argan Oil. Some of the other ones (the purple one and the coconut scented one) did not work for my hair. 
https://nl.lush.com/shop/antwerpen-belgie

The shop near me will give out little samples of stuff to try. I have also recently started using R&B:
https://www.lushusa.com/hair/hair-treatments/randb/03080.html

And I really like it.

Swiftcraftymonkey has a lot of good info on her blog, but she recently made access paid. 

Another option might be to buy shampoo bars from Etsy.


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## szaza (Aug 8, 2018)

Thank you dixiedragon! I've tried a lush shampoo bar before and didn't like it, but that was 10 years ago.. maybe I should give it another try 
I've found the long hair reddit. I always forget how much information there is on reddit about pretty much everything!


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## BattleGnome (Aug 8, 2018)

One idea that I’ve been rolling around is to use 18th century hair care methods or look even earlier. Back the it was almost necessary to have long hair, especially if you were upper class. I haven’t started looking yet but it could be an option. I am curious on the clay method. Do you just dust your roots and brush it through?

For reference, I use baby shampoo 1-2x a week with a Lauriel conditioner (leftover from when my husband used conditioner). I usually wait until my hair is noticeably greasy. I have dark, used to be thick, not yet mermaid length hair. I also use semi permanent hair colors but with my washing schedule they end up acting like permanent.


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## szaza (Aug 9, 2018)

Hey BattleGnome! 

Thanks for the tip of using baby shampoo! It makes sense that baby shampoos are formulated to be very mild and they are generally cheaper than the super mild fancy adult ones.. and if I end up not liking it, I'm sure one of my mommy-friends will be able to use it  

I've done a bit of googling about 18th century hair care, and the only thing I can find is that they combed a lot and washed every once in a while with lye soap to get excess pommade out of their hair. One of the sites I read quoted a manual for ladies in the 1830's that suggested letting a piece of soap sit a few moments in half a cup of lukewarm water and washing the hair with a sponge dipped in this soapy water. Maybe this would be milder on the hair because the soap is more diluted in the water than when you use the lather? It could also just be that they recommended washing hair this way to save water, because they didn't have showers and baths with faucets like we do now..
These are the links to pages I found that mention washing the hair:
https://www.geriwalton.com/georgian-hair-womans-crowning-glory-and/
http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot.com/2014/07/hair-care-in-1820s-1830s.html
In case you're interested in more 18th century stuff, heres a link that talks about the evolution of 18th century hairstyles:
http://demodecouture.com/hairstyles-cosmetics-18th-century/
and this one analyses 18th century hygiene:
http://madameisistoilette.blogspot.com/2014/09/keeping-clean-in-18th-century.html
Unfortunately washing hair isn't mentioned in the last 2 links.
Anyway, I'm trying to get away from using lye soap and even most 18th century sources seem to not recommend washing too often with it..

All tutorials on how to use clay on your hair include making a clay mask with some water and some extra ingredients like acid (lemon juice or ACV), honey, nourishing oils and fragrance. When I was using clay to wash my hair I preferred to only use lemon juice, water and clay but I guess everybody is different. I also never really cracked the code on how to use clay properly, as it left my hair full of gunk and feeling pretty dry/brittle.

"You are a mermaid, sir" OMG that's hilarious!


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## amd (Aug 9, 2018)

I have recently been trying CO washing, with some success. Surprisingly my hair is less gunky doing this - my hair dresser always complains that my hair has a film on it, and it didn't matter if I used salon products or cheap products (or all the stuff in between). After a month of doing this, my hair has been less filmy. I only CO wash once or twice a week, and switch around between whatever is in the shower for shampoo... currently my husband's shampoo and a surfactant shampoo bar that I picked up in China last year. The days I use shampoo I condition with a leave in conditioner. On the days I CO wash, I skip washing my hair the next day.


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## dixiedragon (Aug 9, 2018)

I'm not sure how much hair washing actually happened in the 18th century. IIRC, one reason that hair from Indian women is so long, healthy and desirable for wigs and extensions is that they rarely wash it, but put a bit of coconut oil in it.


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## Obsidian (Aug 9, 2018)

Baby shampoo being mild is just a myth, its it's generally a full on sulfate shampoo. Its formulated not to sting eyes, thats the only real difference.
If you can find it, look into acure shampoo and conditioner. Its sulfate and cone free, not terribly expensive and works well.


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## Cellador (Aug 9, 2018)

I used to wash my hair with a solution made with soapnuts, amla,  and shikakai powder (there's lots of info online). But, it took me a long time to prepare & wash....I have oily hair and need to wash about 4 times a week, so I just couldn't keep up with it. I really liked my hair during that time period though.


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## szaza (Aug 10, 2018)

Hmm.. I'm sure I answered yesterday! I did see that my post was waiting for admin approval, so probably it was not approved (I tried to quote, maybe I did it wrong). I'll try again today 

Thank you all for your suggestions! I really appreciate it, so many new ideas 

Obsidian, thanks for clarifying before I bought the baby shampoo.. I was so hoping that would be the perfect, cheap and simple solution, but it was too good to be true. The brand you suggested can be shipped from the US to Europe, but shipping costs are about the same as the product price (or more). So far none of the EU/UK sellers I found carries the shampoo. But I'll keep looking 

amd, co-washing is definately worth the try! I think I'm going to look for a shampoo/conditioner system that I like and then see how my hair does with conditioner only. I have very thin, straight hair, so co-wash only could weigh it down, but the system you describe of alternating shampoo and co-wash might work!

dixiedragon, thanks for your input! You're right about Indian hair and I just remembered my mom has an Indian friend who used to have very beautiful long hair (it's still beautiful, just a little shorter now) I sent her an email to ask about her hair care routine. If anyone is interested I can post her reply when she answers.

Cellador, I'm going to try to see if I can find those 3 ingredients.. I've read a bit about it online and it does sound like a lot of work, so I understand why you stopped using it.. do you think it would be possible to make a lot at once and freeze it in icecubes, so when you want to take a shower you just melt some icecubes and you're ready to go?


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## Cellador (Aug 10, 2018)

szaza said:


> Cellador, I'm going to try to see if I can find those 3 ingredients.. I've read a bit about it online and it does sound like a lot of work, so I understand why you stopped using it.. do you think it would be possible to make a lot at once and freeze it in icecubes, so when you want to take a shower you just melt some icecubes and you're ready to go?


 Yes, you can do that, and I did for awhile...just remember to take them out early enough. Otherwise, you're in for a cold bath/shower. Lol


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## Carrie (Aug 10, 2018)

isn't the lye gone after the saponification process? i don't see how it could hurt your hair if this is so.


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## artemis (Aug 10, 2018)

Carrie said:


> isn't the lye gone after the saponification process? i don't see how it could hurt your hair if this is so.


It's not the lye, it's the pH of the soap that can be damaging to the hair.


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## szaza (Aug 10, 2018)

Hey Carrie,

Yes, the lye should be gone after saponification if you've used a good recipe, but the soap's pH is still on the alkaline side of the spectrum, while hair prefers a slightly acidic environment. Some people solve this by using an acidic rinse, but it seems even that cannot protect the hair from damage from the alkalinity of soap. There is a very long thread about making lye based shampoo bars on this forum. Many people who have tried it and initially loved the soap bars on their hair have had major damage after prolonged use. There are some exceptions, but it seems like a big risk to take..

If someone has something to add to this, feel free!

This is the link to the shampoo bar thread (I have to admid I didn't read all of it myself, but scanned through a big portion of it):
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/

Edit: While this post was waiting for moderator approval (because of the link I guess) it was invisible to others and has already become redundat.. I can't find an option to remove it, so I'm sorry for the double/repeated info


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## Carrie (Aug 10, 2018)

thanks!  so if i work with a soap calculator, i just need to concentrate on the ph level?


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## dixiedragon (Aug 10, 2018)

Carrie said:


> thanks!  so if i work with a soap calculator, i just need to concentrate on the ph level?


Nope, because soap naturally has a high pH level. That's just part of it's nature as soap. It just isn't possible to lower the pH enough yet have it remain soap. For example, you can add a bunch of lemon juice to it - but that will just gobble up the lye and leave with a bunch of unsaponfied oil, and some greasy, squishy soap. A few posters on here washed their long hair with soap for a while, and liked it...and  then the damage showed up and the hair started breaking off and they had to get their hair cut short, b/c there was no saving it.


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## Carrie (Aug 10, 2018)

thanks again! i was really looking forward to making shampoos bars. i guess this means there is no such thing.


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## dixiedragon (Aug 10, 2018)

Carrie said:


> thanks again! i was really looking forward to making shampoos bars. i guess this means there is no such thing.



You can, actually, but shampoo bar =/= soap bar. SCM has a good recipe, but (as I mentioned), you now have to pay for access. You get different ingredients, which include synthetic surfectants, etc, melt them down and make a bar. I think, I haven't done it.


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## Obsidian (Aug 10, 2018)

szaza said:


> Obsidian, thanks for clarifying before I bought the baby shampoo.. I was so hoping that would be the perfect, cheap and simple solution, but it was too good to be true. The brand you suggested can be shipped from the US to Europe, but shipping costs are about the same as the product price (or more). So far none of the EU/UK sellers I found carries the shampoo. But I'll keep looking



Sorry, didn't notice your location. Maybe look into noughty or natura siberica, I think those are available in Belgium.


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## szaza (Aug 12, 2018)

Obsidian said:


> Sorry, didn't notice your location. Maybe look into noughty or natura siberica, I think those are available in Belgium.


Thanks obsidian! Yes those brands are sold here


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## szaza (Aug 14, 2018)

When I was in a shop that sells natura siberica yesterday, the lady actually directed me towards a different brand called "WAAM". According to her, it's even more natural and should allow my hair to stay nice longer without washing. They only carry one shampoo base, that you can customize yourself with scent/color/active ingredients (same for the conditioner/hair mask base). I washed with the shampoo and conditioner yesterday and my hair is clean and shiny and easy to brush, but I miss the "texture" form lye soap.. I have very straight hair and like every girl with straight hair, I prefer to have some waves. With lye soap (as well as with clay) my hair would easily keep a wave from a bun or braid, but today it's very straight again (even after drying in a braid and beeing kept in a bun all day)... It does seem to have more volume than it used to have with 'regular' shampoo, so that's already a plus! Does anybody have a suggestion for additives that would bring back the wave-keeping ability to my hair?


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## dixiedragon (Aug 14, 2018)

I am wondering if the greater volume of your hair is a side affect of the pH causing hair damage.
http://hairmomentum.com/effects-of-ph-hair/

High pH products make your hair cuticles lift, which weakens the hair.


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## szaza (Aug 14, 2018)

That's a great website @dixiedragon ! I already got carried away and read several articles on the site before I remembered to answer..
The extra volume was indeed probably caused by damage due to high pH, but my hair was also easier to style (with regular products, my hair would be dull and straight within 2omin after styling, no matter what i did). Could that also be because of the pH and the hair cuticle lifting? Maybe the lifted cuticle provided more 'grip' to prevent the hair fibres from sliding back to their natural superstraight position? (just theorizing)
If that would be the case, would there be a possibility to get the same stylability without damaging the hair? I'm not ready to accept mij lifeless thin, straight hair just yet..


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## dixiedragon (Aug 14, 2018)

That's my guess but I honestly don't know. My hair is super straight and fine and also pretty much un-stylable. Won't hold a curl, takes a bunch of bobby pins to stay in because they want to slide out. I just try to appreciate the fact that my hair is thick, soft and pretty even if it won't hold curl, lol.


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## Jenn Lee (Aug 14, 2018)

szaza said:


> Hmm.. I'm sure I answered yesterday! I did see that my post was waiting for admin approval, so probably it was not approved (I tried to quote, maybe I did it wrong). I'll try again today
> 
> Thank you all for your suggestions! I really appreciate it, so many new ideas
> 
> ...



Hello again! I feel like we may be twins!  I also have waist-length hair (that I just got trimmed, phew!).  I have very oily skin and before I started the co-wash, I had to wash my hair daily or it was just gross.  I love the co-wash, it's the best thing I've ever done hygiene-wise other than start using Apple Cider Vinegar instead of other types of deodorants.  I am currently using the seemingly expensive (kinda, I was using a lot more salon products that added up to the same amount without any of the benefits) New Wash, a co-wash by the Bumble&Bumble person.  It's amazing, truly.  I can now go 3 days without washing my hair and it doesn't look like I'm a vagrant.  It feels softer, is shinier, and my scalp is a lot healthier.  So I probably spend around $20-25 a month on hair products.  Not too bad, bit pricey.  

I do wash with a shampoo bar every once in a while - maybe 3 or 4 months -  to do a deep clean because I live in Houston and I tend to get very dirty riding my bike, working outside, etc.  I would never go back to regular shampoo now that I know of the glorious co-wash!  I read a bunch of reviews first and thought it wouldn't work for me because I'm so oily, but it was perfect. It smells good too.

Someone mentioned SwiftyMonkey's blog.  Before it was paid access only, she stated that co-washes, if you look at the ingredients, are not much different than any conditioner you can get.  Some have more of this or that, but you can literally use almost any conditioner as a co-wash and skip the shampoo entirely.  The only trick is that some conditioners will leave build up (silicone) and some may not work for your scalp/hair - so testing is necessary.  She suggests a good one to try first was made by Neutrogena.


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## szaza (Aug 14, 2018)

Jenn Lee said:


> Hello again! I feel like we may be twins!  I also have waist-length hair (that I just got trimmed, phew!).  I have very oily skin and before I started the co-wash, I had to wash my hair daily or it was just gross.  I love the co-wash, it's the best thing I've ever done hygiene-wise other than start using Apple Cider Vinegar instead of other types of deodorants.  I am currently using the seemingly expensive (kinda, I was using a lot more salon products that added up to the same amount without any of the benefits) New Wash, a co-wash by the Bumble&Bumble person.  It's amazing, truly.  I can now go 3 days without washing my hair and it doesn't look like I'm a vagrant.  It feels softer, is shinier, and my scalp is a lot healthier.  So I probably spend around $20-25 a month on hair products.  Not too bad, bit pricey.
> 
> I do wash with a shampoo bar every once in a while - maybe 3 or 4 months -  to do a deep clean because I live in Houston and I tend to get very dirty riding my bike, working outside, etc.  I would never go back to regular shampoo now that I know of the glorious co-wash!  I read a bunch of reviews first and thought it wouldn't work for me because I'm so oily, but it was perfect. It smells good too.
> 
> Someone mentioned SwiftyMonkey's blog.  Before it was paid access only, she stated that co-washes, if you look at the ingredients, are not much different than any conditioner you can get.  Some have more of this or that, but you can literally use almost any conditioner as a co-wash and skip the shampoo entirely.  The only trick is that some conditioners will leave build up (silicone) and some may not work for your scalp/hair - so testing is necessary.  She suggests a good one to try first was made by Neutrogena.



Haha yeah, some kind of secret sister thing is going on here!  Although my skin is rather dry, not oily..
I'm definately going to try out co-washing with my new conditioner, but I wanted to see what shampoo+conditioner was doing before trying conditioner only. I think co-washing originated as conditioner only washing and then some brands started to develop specialized co-wash products. I've actually read about New Wash about a year ago! Back then I thought it was too expensive.. I still think it's pretty expensive, but might try it out in the future (I have my new shampoo/conditioner to finish first)


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## szaza (Aug 14, 2018)

@dixiedragon You're probably right.. I'm just not mentally and emotionally prepared for acceptance yet


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## dixiedragon (Aug 14, 2018)

I have put in next to 0 effort to figure out how to style my hair - TBG I hate the sound/feel of a blow dryer and I hate the feel of a curling iron. IIRC, i read that a dry shampoo was good for that - something like it gives you 2nd day hair, vs 1st day too-clean hair and 3rd too-dirty hair. So maybe the dry shampoo applies a bit of texture and grip? Just something to think about.


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## szaza (Aug 14, 2018)

Thanks! Well.. styling is maybe not the best word to use for what I do with my hair either.. I don't blow dry or curl. What I mean by 'styling' is that my hair gets a bit of wave when I put it in a braid or bun - and that it keeps the wave when I take it out. It would be great if dry shampoo could do that, so I'll definately look into it! Dry shampoo would be useful for hasty moments and travel situations anyway. 
Haha I think I have about a year of experimenting in front of me with all the great suggestions in this thread


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## Dreamer (Sep 2, 2018)

szaza said:


> Hello!
> 
> A couple of months ago a friend gave me one of her shampoo bars and I've been hooked! But after reading some horror stories on this forum I kind of want to get un-hooked..



Hi- I just wanted to let you know that while, yes, there are some horror stories, there are also stories of people that have used lye shampoo bars for quite a while without any issues. I am one of those people, as is part of my family. As for me, I have been making and using my own shampoo bars for a little over 2 years now, with great results. It is all I have used in that time. I continue using the shampoo bar because it gives my hair so much body. I don't wash my hair every day, however, and wonder if that is one of the reasons the lye shampoo bar has not caused any damage. I also have a wash 'n' wear type of hair cut and don't even own a blow dryer or curling iron. Anyway, just wanted to let you know that not everyone has terrible experiences with the lye shampoo bars. For me (us) it has been quite the opposite.


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## bonnyny (Sep 3, 2018)

I agree with Dreamer. Have used Genny's shampoo bar (except with goat milk) for 5 years straight - and still love it. Shoulder length, fine (& now graying) hair, with a blow dryer  and no acid rinse - washing every 4 days. She has my never ending thanks.


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## earlene (Sep 3, 2018)

Dreamer said:


> Hi- I just wanted to let you know that while, yes, there are some horror stories, there are also stories of people that have used lye shampoo bars for quite a while without any issues. I am one of those people, as is part of my family. As for me, I have been making and using my own shampoo bars for a little over 2 years now, with great results. It is all I have used in that time. I continue using the shampoo bar because it gives my hair so much body. I don't wash my hair every day, however, and wonder if that is one of the reasons the lye shampoo bar has not caused any damage. I also have a wash 'n' wear type of hair cut and don't even own a blow dryer or curling iron. Anyway, just wanted to let you know that not everyone has terrible experiences with the lye shampoo bars. For me (us) it has been quite the opposite.


I also wonder what your particular hair type is and how long or short you keep your hair.  I really do believe that many of the people who have had horrible experiences with lye soap on their hair, also had very long hair.  Frequency of use, probably does have something to do with it as well, as you mentioned.  One other question:  Do you also use a rinse of any sort other than simply rinsing with water?


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## Dreamer (Sep 3, 2018)

earlene said:


> I also wonder what your particular hair type is and how long or short you keep your hair.  I really do believe that many of the people who have had horrible experiences with lye soap on their hair, also had very long hair.  Frequency of use, probably does have something to do with it as well, as you mentioned.  One other question:  Do you also use a rinse of any sort other than simply rinsing with water?



My hair is about shoulder-length and is considered fine, but I have a lot of it (so the various hair cutters have described it). I can imagine that people with very long hair may have more tendency with problems using the bars since the bottom or their hair is a few years old already and therefore more damaged.
As far as rinsing, I only use water. I also only shampoo 1X/shower. Some people have told me they shampoo 2X/shower. Once is enough for my hair  (and my family's).


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## Miki (Sep 3, 2018)

Thanks for starting this discussion, I have just joined SMF and have been reading a lot. I started soapmaking HP not that long ago and am totally hooked, and after no poo'ing my hair for several years started washing my hair with my own soap based on a large percentage of co but combined with supermarket available oils. I had heard of shampoo bars, had even bought one from a local market which was the starting point of my own soap production... this bar was 100% co. I love washing my hair with soap, only lately  has my hair started getting gunky after a day or two after washing but have noticed losing less hair in the sink after washing and hair growth on my slightly receding hairline. 
Using Genny's recipe I'm hoping to go that step further and hoping that I'm not in that percentage of damaged hair.... after reading your comments it might be an idea to use a commercial shampoo now and then...


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## KimT2au (Sep 3, 2018)

Hi Szaza,  SwiftCraftMonkey has made her site a pay site but she has a$1US /month subscription and you can cancel at any time. I have just taken out this subscription to see if I make use of the site.  Having gone there for the first time last night I found my head was swimming with the information available.  Also, Marie from Humblebee and Me has some lovely shampoo and conditioner recipes on her site.


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## szaza (Sep 4, 2018)

It's very nice to hear that some of you have had such a succes with using lye based shampoo bars! It's a bit of a reassurance I have been noticing more split ends though... and my mom said she thought her hair was thinning while using a lye based shampoo bar. I also have super long hair and I just don't want to take the risk. We're both back to detergent based shampoo. I'm still trying to find a good fit, because I didn't like the shampoo I used before, but as I'm only washing my hair once a week it'll take a while to experiment enough to find a system that's working for me. The only thing I'm sticking with from the lye based shampoo is the lemon juice rinse. Even with normal shampoo I feel it makes my hair shinier and easier to comb through


Miki said:


> Thanks for starting this discussion, I have just joined SMF and have been reading a lot. I started soapmaking HP not that long ago and am totally hooked, and after no poo'ing my hair for several years started washing my hair with my own soap based on a large percentage of co but combined with supermarket available oils. I had heard of shampoo bars, had even bought one from a local market which was the starting point of my own soap production... this bar was 100% co. I love washing my hair with soap, only lately  has my hair started getting gunky after a day or two after washing but have noticed losing less hair in the sink after washing and hair growth on my slightly receding hairline.
> Using Genny's recipe I'm hoping to go that step further and hoping that I'm not in that percentage of damaged hair.... after reading your comments it might be an idea to use a commercial shampoo now and then...


I also really liked washing my hair with soap.. but I've had long hair all my life and don't want to risk losing it. As stated above by @earlene, the length of your hair and how often you wash it probably has an influence on your results. Short hair just doesn't have as much time to get damaged than long hair does I hope you find a way to wash your hair that you like!


KimT2au said:


> Hi Szaza,  SwiftCraftMonkey has made her site a pay site but she has a$1US /month subscription and you can cancel at any time. I have just taken out this subscription to see if I make use of the site.  Having gone there for the first time last night I found my head was swimming with the information available.  Also, Marie from Humblebee and Me has some lovely shampoo and conditioner recipes on her site.


Thanks! I've heard a lot about SwiftCraftMonkey. Maybe one day I'll feel ready to make lotions and detergent shampoo myself and that same day I'll take a subscription immediately, but right now I'm still playing around with my store bought "customizable shampoo base"


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## DeeAnna (Sep 4, 2018)

I'm sure longer hair can show more cumulative damage with lye soap, but shorter hair can show damage too, so don't dismiss that possibility. 

I can tell if my husband uses lye soap to wash his collar length hair, because it looks dull and loses its nice wave. My hair was only to the middle of my shoulder blades when I had to do a drastic trim after a year of using soap on my hair.

If washing your hair with lye-based soap works for you, more power to you and your hair. But the consequences of it not working on a person's hair of any length can be rather upsetting.


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## shunt2011 (Sep 4, 2018)

Yep, my hair was relatively short (just below the ears) and had to go to just about a pixie after about 6-8 months.  My hair was like straw. 

Some can get away with it but I won't risk it and advise my customers that ask for soap shampoo I don't make them or recommend them.


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## jentlesoaps (Sep 4, 2018)

There is a lot of controversy about pH and soap. However as soon as you get your hair wet it increases the pH of the mantle to 7. Water isn't harmful to the hair and a gentle soap used in the correct way isn't going to harm your hair (which is dead) or cause frizziness or breakage.  I think the fine art of using soap based shampoo on long hair has been lost. I've recently discovered that I can 'cheat' a little and protect my hair at the same time. First wet your hair and work your low pH (gentle formula) conditioner (I use Regis Cashmere) into your hair. Using a shampoo bar with a lower pH (soap based 8-9) wash the scalp and oily  hair close to the scalp. Reapply conditioner and rinse. I use my shampoo soap every week and it's the first thing I reach for because it cleans so well. It may work for you, and it may not.


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## szaza (Sep 5, 2018)

Wow.. @shunt2011 those kinds of stories are exactly why I've decided not to use lye shampoo anymore.. I have some friends who do lots of crazy things with their hair until it breaks and then cut it short and let it grow out again. So I guess there are people who don't mind taking the risk if they like what it does to their hair, but I'm not one of those people. It's good to be aware of the risks though, so thank you for sharing your story!


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## szaza (Sep 5, 2018)

jentlesoaps said:


> I think the fine art of using soap based shampoo on long hair has been lost.


From what I've read about 18th century hair care, the fine art of using soap based shampoo consisted mainly of washing your hair as little as possible. There was also something about soaking soap in water and using the water to wash your hair, but I'm not sure if that was to lessen the damaging effect of soap, or just to limit water consumption, as running water wasn't available yet.


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## earlene (Sep 5, 2018)

I used to read a lot of novels starting at a very young age, and one of the things I noticed in reading novels from long ago, was that women didn't wash their hair very often.  I recall a novel about a group of people crossing the country in wagon trains (around the 1700's and early 1800's) and hair shampooing was mentioned.  As I recall it was uncommon to wash the hair even as often as once a month.  It seemed odd to me since I know how dusty my hair got when we went camping and I figured wagon trails with lots of dust flying around was probably even worse. But then again, I did know what it was like to have to bathe and wash my hair in a cold river since when we went camping that was all there was available for washing.  There were no bathrooms or showers in the campgrounds where we went for our vacations as a child.

Here's an _article_ printed in the New York Times in 1908 in which the recommendations for how often a woman should wash/shampoo her hair varies based on hair types.  The frequency recommended was a month to 6 weeks, although it does mention sometimes every 2 weeks might be desirable.  It goes on to include instructions about how to make shampoo with castile soap shavings.  

When I was around 10 or 12, my grandmother gave me a book to guide girls into proper women (or some such propaganda) and as I recall hair shampooing was still being recommended at much less frequent intervals than later became recommended by the time I was an adult in the 80's or 90's.  I don't think I still have that book or I'd look it up, but I think it was something in the once every week or two range at that time, but it could also have been monthly.  But at that time shampoos were the norm and using lye soap was rare if one were to go by the popular ad campaigns of the time.

Another thing that didn't happen when I was a child was washing the hair at the same time as bathing.  Hair washing happened at the kitchen sink.  Mom washed her hair at the kitchen sink and washed my hair at the kitchen sink.  Later I washed my hair at the kitchen sink myself.    Sometime while in my teens I started washing my hair when I took a shower, but that was not the usual way when I grew up.  Although I do remember having my hair washed in a tub bath as very young girl, but only once and that's because my dad was in charge of that bath.  My mom never had me wash my hair in the tub as a child.  So I think it's because men didn't wash their hair in the sink anyway, at least not in my family home.  I don't have a clue if they used shampoo or bath soap for their hair in the 50s & 60s.  I never paid attention to the bathing habits of my brothers except when they were babies and I had to help because I was the oldest.

It's interesting how these things change over time, but also regionally and in other parts of the world.


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## nonna oakie (Sep 5, 2018)

I have a question about shampoo bars.  Last night I saw a recipe saying 74 degrees for the oil and 125 degrees for the lye.  I have been making
soap for my family/friends for years but i have both at 100 degrees.
Is that 74 - 125 correct? help before I try it, i don't want to waste all.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 5, 2018)

nonna oakie said:


> ...a recipe saying 74 degrees for the oil and 125 degrees for the lye. ... Is that 74 - 125 correct?...




If you're talking about a lye-soap recipe (not a syndet recipe) and a cold process method, that's awfully persnickety, in my opinion. Even matching the temps at 100 F is too persnickety, at least speaking for myself. Getting ingredients to an exact temp is not all that important for most typical soap recipes.

You want your fats fully melted by the time you start soaping. If they're all liquid at room temp, then room temp (74 F or whatever) is fine for the fats. If they are solid at room temp, then 74 F is not okay.

Solid fats should be just warm enough to be fully melted. Whatever that temp happens to be, that's what you want. For my typical soap recipes with a high % of lard, that's somewhere between 95-105 F.

Again speaking about typical soap recipes and typical CP methods, the lye solution should be anywhere from room temp to gently warm to the palm of the hand -- that's anywhere from room temp to maybe 105 F.


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## CoolSuds (Sep 5, 2018)

I use a shampoo bar & always rinse with vinegar. I love it!


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## bonnyny (Sep 7, 2018)

Earlene, you bring up a point about rinsing. We always washed our hair in the sink (or crouching down under the faucet in the tub).


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## szaza (Nov 2, 2018)

It's been a while, but I thought I'd come back to share my experiences with different ways of washing my hair now I've given up on lye-based shampoo. 
So far, I've tried sulphate free shampoo, silicone free conditioner and rhassoul clay in different combinations:
Shampoo + conditioner
Shampoo only
Shampoo + acid rinse
Shampoo+argan oil +acid rinse
Conditioner only
Conditioner + acid rinse
Rhassoul clay only
Rhassoul clay + acid rinse
Rhassoul clay+argan oil + acid rinse
I mainly noticed I love the rinse.. I use a full glass of (cold) water with a tiny spoon of Citric acid, which gives me a pH of about 3,5-4. I'm kind of wondering if the pH is too low, but my hair seems to love it. 
Shampoo + acid rinse made my hair shinier and easier to comb through than shampoo + conditioner. 
My hair looks its best after using conditioner + acid rinse, but it gets dirty more quickly, so I keep that for when I have to look good for a party or something.
For regular use, I tend to gravitate towards rhassoul clay +acid rinse (with a tiny bit of argan oil added to the clay/water mix), I feel it leaves my hair a little softer than the shampoo, with an added bonus of keeping a bit more of a bun-wave. The shampoo is a lot easier to use though, so I keep it for when I'm in a hurry (but I still use an acid rinse and I add a tiny bit of argan oil to the shampoo to keep it from being overly cleansing).
Rhassoul clay is very different from the french clays I've used before. It's much softer on the hair and rinses out super clean (so clean I feel the need to add a bit of oil to the mix). I am a bit worried about what it will do to our plumbing though..
I haven't gotten around to trying the amla, reetha, shikakai mixture yet, but it's still on my list!


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## earlene (Nov 11, 2018)

You've really put a lot of thought and effort into this process, *szaza*.  So the rinse you like is a mild Citric Acid in water rinse.  You only use one glass of water?  Or do you use more than one glass per rinsing?  I forgot how long your hair is?  I believe you said it is quite long, so I am curious about how much product you use that you have to rinse out and how much actual rinse you use.   Is your hair dark or light?

I've decided to order some Rhassoul Clay & it should be here by Wednesday, so I hope to give this a try on Wed. or Thursday. How do you apply it?  I've read some things about mixing it with oils & Coconunt milk, etc. but is that really necessary?  It seems rinsing would require far more water that way.  Oh, I see you say you mix it with water & sometimes add argan oil.  I think I am out of argan oil, so will start out with just a water mix/ paste mixture, followed by a water rinse.  I'll look around for my citric acid and may give a final rinse with that.

I read that rhassoul clay really helps with an itchy scalp and mine has really been itching a lot lately, so I hope this helps.


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## Tiana Acero (Nov 11, 2018)

szaza said:


> Hey BattleGnome!
> 
> Thanks for the tip of using baby shampoo! It makes sense that baby shampoos are formulated to be very mild and they are generally cheaper than the super mild fancy adult ones.. and if I end up not liking it, I'm sure one of my mommy-friends will be able to use it
> 
> ...


I loved the 18th century hygiene link, so interesting.


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## szaza (Nov 12, 2018)

Oh I'm really curious how you'll like the rhassoul clay!
I think starting off with just water and seeing how your hair reacts and then adding/changing things is the best way to find what works for you. I only add argan oil because I find pure rhassoul too cleansing. Also, you need less clay than you'd expect, it soaks up a lot of water (more than french clays at least)
For the rinse I use a big 330ml (beer)glass filled to the brim with water and add a tiny coffeespoon of CA, but I always test the pH with litmus paper as well.. I use one glass to soak all my hair (I have very thin, waist length hair) and then rinse again with cold water.
Good luck experimenting!


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## HoliHealerz (Feb 19, 2022)

szaza said:


> Wow.. @shunt2011 those kinds of stories are exactly why I've decided not to use lye shampoo anymore.. I have some friends who do lots of crazy things with their hair until it breaks and then cut it short and let it grow out again. So I guess there are people who don't mind taking the risk if they like what it does to their hair, but I'm not one of those people. It's good to be aware of the risks though, so thank you for sharing your story!


I also do not like to take risks with my hair.  I stayed away from any kind if soap on my hair until 2021.  My mother has been using katira gond on her hair for 21 years and she still has a lot if hair and less grey than me .  But I just didnt like the idea or feel (I think ince ever did I try but it was ordinary soap).  Then when I began making soap, I pucked up my natural soap (it was a henna bar that I rebatched from a natural traditional soap bar, ai was making these and suddenly began to get orders because of my friend's enthusiasm to sell my hand made soap) and suddenly I felt as if my hair had been released from a life sentence.  Seriously thats the thought that came to me.  I was not completely satisfied and have been working to improve my shampoo bars which I have sold because my acquaintances wanted them. They loved them but the artist /scientist is never satisfied so I wasn't I went back to normal shampoo for one or two washes and then use what I made knowing its better than the artificial stuff.  I NEVER dye my hair, or use any chemicals and I make an awesome hair product that used to have 40 natural ingredients, since then I focused function and reduced to 23.  Everyone loves it and my hair began to grow.  But Im **** lazy knowing that its available when I need it.  Typical.  Either we know nothing and try hard or we know and become lazy. While others are willing to pay for the same thing.  The point is that I BELIEVE in the results of a true and natural shampoo and will work until I reach it or until someone else shares what they have discovered.  I know, it was a long post but hope it was worth your pain to read.  Thank you for your time.  Personally I LOVE all your anecdotes and hope u'll all share more.xxx


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## Lyric (Feb 20, 2022)

szaza said:


> Haha yeah, some kind of secret sister thing is going on here!  Although my skin is rather dry, not oily..
> I'm definately going to try out co-washing with my new conditioner, but I wanted to see what shampoo+conditioner was doing before trying conditioner only. I think co-washing originated as conditioner only washing and then some brands started to develop specialized co-wash products. I've actually read about New Wash about a year ago! Back then I thought it was too expensive.. I still think it's pretty expensive, but might try it out in the future (I have my new shampoo/conditioner to finish first)


I recall yeaaarss ago I used to hang out at Long Hair Care Forum where ladies were discussing hair growth; long hair for women of color.  That's where I learned of co-washing.  Believe it or not I used to use Suave.  Usually on the bottom of the shelf for .80 to maybe $1.00.  I was co-washing every day.  I have eased up . . . a lot.  I like the concept and my hair was soft as a baby's bum when I was doing it.

Now, I am researching a water filter for my shower (we have well water).  Looking forward to results from using that.  My hair is probably uber damaged; need a trim, but married to a dude that spaz's when I cut my hair.  I am now a senior citizen, grey/white hair down middle of my back.  Hmm, wonder if I ever do the proverbial trim how low I would need to go to mitigate damage. Me thinks neck length at the very least.  It's just hair.

Oh, I found out about kaolin clay recently.  Visited a site QuickSilver.  Maaaan, that brand is waaay beyond my finances.  So, I kept reading to see the to-do about it.  Apparently kaolin clay is the bees knees.  Well, I can get that via Amazon for way cheaper than $56, plus s/h.  It also uses a hair oil or squalane.  Again, can get that from Amazon and a conditioner without parabens, et al.


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## artemis (Feb 20, 2022)

Lyric said:


> I am now a senior citizen, grey/white hair down middle of my back.  Hmm, wonder if I ever do the proverbial trim how low I would need to go to mitigate damage. Me thinks neck length at the very least.  It's just hair.



That is a beautiful silver! I'm letting my gray come in without coloring it, but I'm at an in-between phase. My very straight hair is starting to frizz as it turns gray. My husband doesn't get mad when I cut it, but I do get sad, puppy dog eyes. What is kaolin supposed to do for hair?


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## TheGecko (Feb 20, 2022)

Lyric said:


> Believe it or not I used to use Suave.



Ya know, many shampoos are made the same way commercial soaps...same ingredients, but with different levels of water added. Suave is cheap because it has more water.

I'm 60...needless to say I have used a LOT of different shampoos and conditioners over the years. From inexpensive Suave to very expensive 'professional' salon brands. I've had different lengths of hair...from touching my shoulders to being about to sit on it. Until a few years ago, I had been coloring my hair...sometimes professionally, mostly myself. I also had a perm a few times, but that was a long, long time ago.

Things I have learned over the years:

1) Shampoo is for the scalp, conditioner is for the hair.

2) Under normal circumstances, you should only wash your hair every three days.  Most 'products' along with dirt and sweat will rinse out.

3) Brush/comb you hair before washing...you'll have less tangles.  And brush/comb from the bottom to the top.  When you brush from the top to bottom, all you are doing is pushing the tangles down and tightening them up.

4) Less is more. You don't need a head-full of fluffy lather like the commercials to wash your hair...it's a marketing gimmick to get you to use more shampoo. Same with conditioner...don't slather it on.

5) Squeaky clean is great for glasses, plates and pots, but NOT for skin or hair; it's a sign that you have stripped all the natural oils from them.

My hair is waist length...it's mainly silver with some purple streaks except for the underside which is still 'blonde' (weird).  Until some health issues about five years ago, my hair was very thick and coarse (I'm white)...it ten thinned out and became fine.  I generally wash my hair twice a week...Monday and Friday, but I have gone a week without as I work in an office, have a blank social calendar and am not as active as I used to be.

I use OGX Renewing + Argan Oil of Morocco Shampoo and Conditioner...I like the smell of it and it doesn't trigger hubby's sensitivities. I generally wear my hair in a low pony tail after towel drying. I have bangs that I blow dry and use a light spray of TRESemme Hair Spray...it doesn't trigger hubby's sensitivities. I use about a quarter size dollop on my hands, rub them together and then massage into my scalp first and then wash the rest of my hair. Conditioner is about a half dollar size...I start by dipping my fingers in and putting a bit on the top of my head and then rub my hands together and go down the length of my hair and then a general massage. I make sure I rinse my scalp well and then the rest of my hair. No squeaking.

I keep my bangs trimmed myself, but I do go in two to three times a year and have a half to a full inch.  About once every four years I get a good six inches chopped off because regardless of how well I take care it, it gets damaged by normal life.


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## Hope Ann (Feb 20, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> I NEVER dye my hair, or use any chemicals and I make an awesome hair product that used to have 40 natural ingredients, since then I focused function and reduced to 23.  Everyone loves it and my hair began to grow.  But Im **** lazy knowing that its available when I need it.  Typical.  Either we know nothing and try hard or we know and become lazy.



I don't understand your statement that you don't use chemicals on your hair.  Even water is a chemical (H20).

Hope


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## AliOop (Feb 20, 2022)

@Lyric That is some gorgeous hair right there. Looks very similar in curl pattern to mine, but your silver color is  whereas mine is all shades of dark brown, medium brown, auburn-brown, golden blonde-brown, grey, and silver white. Quite the hodge-podge! Your all-over silver is hair goals for me.

Re kaolin clay for hair.  Except rhassoul, all the clays I've tried (french, bentonite, illite) were very drying for my already-dry hair. But I haven't tried kaolin yet. If you do try it, I hope you'll report back with results.


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Feb 20, 2022)

@Lyric 
Your hair & color is stunning...


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## Lyric (Feb 21, 2022)

Put in wrong place.  opps. Was trying to delete and place properly.


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## Lyric (Feb 21, 2022)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> @Lyric
> Your hair & color is stunning...



Awww shucks, thanks.  Determined to grow old gracefully.  Er ah, yeah right as I sit here planning on some type of cute outfit to go see my granddaughter in a couple of weeks.  She's been in Japan, her daddy is an airman and they will be flying home on way to next duty station . . .  Hawaii.  Yippeee, I get to see her,  It has been three years.


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## Lyric (Feb 21, 2022)

AliOop said:


> @Lyric That is some gorgeous hair right there. Looks very similar in curl pattern to mine, but your silver color is  whereas mine is all shades of dark brown, medium brown, auburn-brown, golden blonde-brown, grey, and silver white. Quite the hodge-podge! Your all-over silver is hair goals for me.
> 
> Re kaolin clay for hair.  Except rhassoul, all the clays I've tried (french, bentonite, illite) were very drying for my already-dry hair. But I haven't tried kaolin yet. If you do try it, I hope you'll report back with results.


Oh, well, since you asked (big grin here).  I surely shall.  I won't be able to order until next month.  Kinda excited to be honest, to see the to-do.


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## Lyric (Feb 21, 2022)

artemis said:


> That is a beautiful silver! I'm letting my gray come in without coloring it, but I'm at an in-between phase. My very straight hair is starting to frizz as it turns gray. My husband doesn't get mad when I cut it, but I do get sad, puppy dog eyes. What is kaolin supposed to do for hair?


*Controls dandruff*

Kaolin clay controls dandruff by absorbing some of the oil on your scalp. It can also help remove dead skin cells clogging up pores and leading to an itchy, flaky scalp.

*Reduces excess oil*

Kaolin clay has a very absorbent quality to it, which makes it great for reducing excess oil. This is helpful if you have oily hair or an oily scalp because the kaolin will help remove some of that grease and leave your locks looking fresh and clean!

*Fights frizz*

Kaolin clay works as a natural anti-frizz agent because it reduces the appearance of frizz caused by humidity. It is also an excellent ingredient for curly hair!

*It helps with split ends.*

Kaolin clay can help repair damaged or split ends in your locks, making it a popular treatment option for coloured and dry hair types. The mineral works its way through each strand of your hair and helps to seal up any weak spots.

*Smoothes hair*

Kaolin clay can smooth your locks by helping to remove buildups like product residue, oils, dirt and other debris that may be left behind from environmental pollutants. This will leave you with a clean scalp and shiny, healthy-looking hair!

*Neutralizes & balances pH*

Kaolin clay can help to balance the pH in your scalp and reduce excess oil production. It also helps keep your locks looking shiny, bouncy, and beautiful!

*Helps with Hair loss*

This natural mineral is rich in nutrients like iron, copper, magnesium calcium that are great for strengthening individual strands of hair. These minerals encourage new growth and can help to prevent hair loss in both men and women.

*Treats skin conditions*

Kaolin clay contains many minerals that are great for your skin and can help treat conditions like eczema, acne, psoriasis and more.

*Detoxifies hair*

The detoxifying effects of kaolin clay can help remove product buildup, dirt and other toxins left behind from pollutants in the environment or products you use on your hair.

*Prevents colour fading*

The natural UV protection of kaolin clay can help prevent the colour from bleaching out in hair dyed or treated with a chemical service.

*Repairs damage*

Kaolin clay can help repair hair damaged from heat styling, chemical services like perms and relaxers, or over-processing.
##########################
From the website selling a certain brand that I ain't gonna pay: QuickSilverHair Kit ~ Clay & Squalane Oil ~ QuickSilverHair
*QuickSilverHair Squalane Kit*
$50.99


*Enjoy both the QuickSilverHair Clay and Squalane Oil*
*QuickSilverHair Squalane Kit includes:*


One 4 ounce bag of Clay
One 2 oz bottle of Squalane Oil

Hope this helps.  If not holla and I'll find more 4-1-1.


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## kdaniels8811 (Feb 21, 2022)

Cellador said:


> I used to wash my hair with a solution made with soapnuts, amla,  and shikakai powder (there's lots of info online). But, it took me a long time to prepare & wash....I have oily hair and need to wash about 4 times a week, so I just couldn't keep up with it. I really liked my hair during that time period though.


I purchase the dried herbs you mentioned above and put a heaping teaspoon in about a third cup HOT water and allow to steep 5 minutes, then wash my hair leaving it on while I wash my body.  It suds beautifully due to the soapnuts (ground to a powder).  Good luck!


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## Peachy Clean Soap (Feb 21, 2022)

Lyric said:


> Awww shucks, thanks.  Determined to grow old gracefully.  Er ah, yeah right as I sit here planning on some type of cute outfit to go see my granddaughter in a couple of weeks.  She's been in Japan, her daddy is an airman and they will be flying home on way to next duty station . . .  Hawaii.  Yippeee, I get to see her,  It has been three years.


Oh how nice’ I think bright colors & black is a great combination especially for beautiful grey hair’ it makes it pop! Along with a brighter makeup .


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## szaza (Feb 25, 2022)

@Lyric your hair is absolutely gorgeous! I hope one day my hair will be such a pretty silver

Rhassoul was my favorite clay to use on my hair, but everyone is different, so experiment away just a small tip: wash your ears thoroughly after a clay hairmask.. I once went to work with a lump of clay stuck in the crease of my ear 

Although I really liked washing my hair with clay, it was a lot of work and I don't do it often anymore. I tried a few natural shampoos which were ok, but last summer my hair got very damaged from all the dust of the renovation and I went to a dedicated haircare shop to find something more protective and nourishing. They pointed me in the direction of a natural haircare brand that I now adore. I'm in EU, so might nog be available for most of you, but this is what I'm using:








						Metamorphose Magna Macadamia & Argan Oil Shampoo
					

Droog en beschadigd haar? Klinkt als een nachtmerrie voor de meeste onder ons.. Gelukkig ontwikkelde Metamorphose Magna Macadamia & Argan Oil Shampoo! Een heerlijk ruikende, parabeen vrije shampoo die jouw haar weer een boost geeft.




					www.floralehaircare.com
				











						Metamorphose Magna Macadamia & Argan Oil Potion 11
					

11 wonderen voor het haar! Magna Macadamia & Argan Oil Potion 11 is een leave-in conditioner met maar liefst 11 essentiële effecten voor het haar.




					www.floralehaircare.com


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 6, 2022)

Hope Ann said:


> I don't understand your statement that you don't use chemicals on your hair.  Even water is a chemical (H20).
> 
> Hope


I can be more dictionary friendly for those who do not understand the general meaning of my statement.


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## Hope Ann (Mar 7, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> I can be more dictionary friendly for those who do not understand the general meaning of my statement.



You wrote that you never dye your hair nor use any chemicals.  EVERYTHING in life is a chemical.  So I don't understand your statement.

Hope


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 7, 2022)

Hope Ann said:


> You wrote that you never dye your hair nor use any chemicals.  EVERYTHING in life is a chemical.  So I don't understand your statement.  I also don't appreciate your tone.
> 
> Hope


Step one.  Are you honestly telling me that you have No idea what someone means when they say that they do not use chemicals on their hair?
Ok then perhaps I should explain what people who leave out the word 'synthetic' mean when they say the word  'chemical'.  They mean natural.  I hope that this detail is now clear.  But it does not solve the bigger issue that you didnt understand.


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 7, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> Step one.  Are you honestly telling me that you have No idea what someone means when they say that they do not use chemicals on their hair?
> Ok then perhaps I should explain what people who leave out the word 'synthetic' mean when they say the word  'chemical'.  They mean natural.  I hope that this detail is now clear.  But it does not solve the bigger issue that you didnt understand (given that you are here to teach others).


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 7, 2022)

Step two.  I did not make the initial statement here that one STILL HAS TO WAIT after creating HP JUST like in CP when this is FALSE.  One can let the soap harden through time but once ph has reached neutral and the gel phase is complete.  Then the soap is done.  It is SAFE to use because the criteria is the ph.  Need vs HAVE TO. As I have stated several times already.  This was not ME picking or as you wished to label my defense of facts as 'argumentative' in response to several people falsely claiming that safety refers to weigh (they mentioned that one of the tests was to weight the soap before 'cure' and after as a proof) or hardness or they wouldnt say HAVE TO. 
I was also accused of misinterpreting an article when all I did was pull out the words used in the article.  If that is misinterpreting then perhaps it says something about the article and not the reader or quoter.
Another point that I have seen here is that CP and HP are hot topics.  If this is the case then one cannot call oneself an unbiased scientist but more emotionally effected by conclusions that people draw. Science and philosophy (reason) should, nay, must be independent of emotion or personal preference or politics otherwise lets go run for government instead of making soap because we do not belong in a factual field.


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 7, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> Step two.  I did not make the initial statement here that one STILL HAS TO WAIT after creating HP JUST like in CP when this is FALSE.  One can let the soap harden through time but once ph has reached neutral and the gel phase is complete.  Then the soap is done.  It is SAFE to use because the criteria is the ph.  Need vs HAVE TO. As I have stated several times already.  This was not ME picking or as you wished to label my defense of facts as 'argumentative' in response to several people falsely claiming that safety refers to weight (they mentioned that one of the tests was to weigh the soap before 'cure' and after as a proof) or hardness or they wouldnt say HAVE TO.
> I was also accused of misinterpreting an article when all I did was pull out the words used in the article.  If that is misinterpreting then perhaps it says something about the article and not the reader or quoter.
> Another point that I have seen here is that CP and HP are hot topics.  If this is the case then one cannot call oneself an unbiased scientist but more emotionally effected by conclusions that people draw. Science and philosophy (reason) should, nay, must be independent of emotion or personal preference or politics otherwise lets go run for government instead of making soap because we do not belong in a factual field.


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 7, 2022)

Step three:
Reference was made to 'mushy' soap.  This is an assumption without ground.  
Another assumption was made that the soap was being sold in fact I didn't even initially say that it was used.  It would be better to ask - what was the as you called it 'impatience' for.  And I would have gladly answered, to understand the results of the test.


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## Misschief (Mar 7, 2022)

Hope Ann said:


> You wrote that you never dye your hair nor use any chemicals.  EVERYTHING in life is a chemical.  So I don't understand your statement.
> 
> Hope





HoliHealerz said:


> Step one.  Are you honestly telling me that you have No idea what someone means when they say that they do not use chemicals on their hair?
> Ok then perhaps I should explain what people who leave out the word 'synthetic' mean when they say the word  'chemical'.  They mean natural.  I hope that this detail is now clear.  But it does not solve the bigger issue that you didnt understand.



Ok ladies, take a step back. It's been said before in every forum I've ever been in. You can't read tone into written comments so it's easy to read something into comments that may not be there. Holi, I think Hope Ann was just wanting some insight into your hair care routine. Usually when one talks about not using chemicals in the hair, they're referring to the fact that their hair is uncoloured.  What do you mean when you say "natural" hair care?



HoliHealerz said:


> Step two.  I did not make the initial statement here that one STILL HAS TO WAIT after creating HP JUST like in CP when this is FALSE.  One can let the soap harden through time but once ph has reached neutral and the gel phase is complete.  Then the soap is done.  It is SAFE to use because the criteria is the ph.  Need vs HAVE TO. As I have stated several times already.  This was not ME picking or as you wished to label my defense of facts as 'argumentative' in response to several people falsely claiming that safety refers to weigh (they mentioned that one of the tests was to weight the soap before 'cure' and after as a proof) or hardness or they wouldnt say HAVE TO.



This topic has been discussed many, many times in this forum. There is a difference between saponification and cure. What you're referring to here is saponification. With HP, the soap is saponified by the application of external heat and the process is completed once there's no more zap. CP soap saponifies on its own (with gel or not) and reaches the point of saponification within the first 24-48 hours. At that point, both are safe to use. However, neither is at its best. That's where cure comes in. Cure takes time and happens at a much deeper level in both CP and HP. Incidentally, soap does not have a neutral pH and never will.


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 7, 2022)

Misschief said:


> Ok ladies, take a step back. It's been said before in every forum I've ever been in. You can't read tone into written comments so it's easy to read something into comments that may not be there. Holi, I think Hope Ann was just wanting some insight into your hair care routine. Usually when one talks about not using chemicals in the hair, they're referring to the fact that their hair is uncoloured.  What do you mean when you say "natural" hair care?
> 
> 
> 
> This topic has been discussed many, many times in this forum. There is a difference between saponification and cure. What you're referring to here is saponification. With HP, the soap is saponified by the application of external heat and the process is completed once there's no more zap. CP soap saponifies on its own (with gel or not) and reaches the point of saponification within the first 24-48 hours. At that point, both are safe to use. However, neither is at its best. That's where cure comes in. Cure takes time and happens at a much deeper level in both CP and HP. Incidentally, soap does not have a neutral pH and never will.


I think that you have said everything here that I was saying. Thank you.
My job is done.
And yes natural is no synthetics.  Finally.


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## Hope Ann (Mar 7, 2022)

HoliHealerz said:


> Step one.  Are you honestly telling me that you have No idea what someone means when they say that they do not use chemicals on their hair?
> Ok then perhaps I should explain what people who leave out the word 'synthetic' mean when they say the word  'chemical'.  They mean natural.  I hope that this detail is now clear.  But it does not solve the bigger issue that you didnt understand.



No, I do not know what they mean.  Many people don't understand science and truly believe that "natural" products are chemical free.  Some use the false term "chemical free" to indicate no synthetic ingredients while others mean it to indicate no synthetic ingredients that are considered harsh or toxic.  I'm sure there are other interpretations as well but these are some of the most common ones.  Therefore, I asked for clarification of what you meant, as your words were imprecise and did not clearly communicate to me your intention.  There really is no reason to be combative when asked for clarification.

As for the rest of your comments, please start your own thread for it.  You can ask admin to move them.  It's considered rude to go off topic, as it makes it hard for others when they're reading through a thread to get information on the topic in the subject line but then encounter a lot of comments on a different topic that they have to scroll through.  When you read through the forum, you'll see this mentioned many times.  For example, Zaneys No-Slime Castille thread.

Hope


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## HoliHealerz (Mar 7, 2022)

Misschief said:


> Ok ladies, take a step back. It's been said before in every forum I've ever been in. You can't read tone into written comments so it's easy to read something into comments that may not be there. Holi, I think Hope Ann was just wanting some insight into your hair care routine. Usually when one talks about not using chemicals in the hair, they're referring to the fact that their hair is uncoloured.  What do you mean when you say "natural" hair care?
> 
> 
> 
> This topic has been discussed many, many times in this forum. There is a difference between saponification and cure. What you're referring to here is saponification. With HP, the soap is saponified by the application of external heat and the process is completed once there's no more zap. CP soap saponifies on its own (with gel or not) and reaches the point of saponification within the first 24-48 hours. At that point, both are safe to use. However, neither is at its best. That's where cure comes in. Cure takes time and happens at a much deeper level in both CP and HP. Incidentally, soap does not have a neutral pH and never will.


About the ph


Hope Ann said:


> No, I do not know what they mean.  Many people don't understand science and truly believe that "natural" products are chemical free.  Some use the false term "chemical free" to indicate no synthetic ingredients while others mean it to indicate no synthetic ingredients that are considered harsh or toxic.  I'm sure there are other interpretations as well but these are some of the most common ones.  Therefore, I asked for clarification of what you meant, as your words were imprecise and did not clearly communicate to me your intention.  There really is no reason to be combative when asked for clarification.
> 
> As for the rest of your comments, please start your own thread for it.  You can ask admin to move them.  It's considered rude to go off topic, as it makes it hard for others when they're reading through a thread to get information on the topic in the subject line but then encounter a lot of comments on a different topic that they have to scroll through.  When you read through the forum, you'll see this mentioned many times.  For example, Zaneys No-Slime Castille thread.
> 
> Hope


Thank you for this education.


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