# 1st batch liquid soap questions and borax vs citric acid



## Karsha2148 (Jul 4, 2019)

Hi -have just made my first batch of liquid soap.  A few questions please.  When do I incorporate glycerin into soap.  Tried putting in with lye to dissolve (didn't work).  Also, do people use citric acid instead of borax to neutralize?  Oh, and can you overcook soap.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 4, 2019)

You need to give more details about what you're doing if you want good advice. We really need to know the recipe and method you used -- there are too many ways to make liquid soap paste.

You don't need to add any glycerin at all, but you can. Why do you want to use it? What is your goal for adding glycerin?

You don't need to add borax or citric acid, but some methods do use one or the other. Why do you want to use these chemicals? What method are you following that calls for their use?

You don't need to actually cook the soap at all, although many people do. What did you do to cook the soap? Why do you think your soap is overcooked?


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## Karsha2148 (Jul 4, 2019)

Thankyou DeeAnna for replying. Did not realise I did not have to use a crock pot.  All recipes I have seen was to use the crock pot.  The recipe was from 'spruce crafts' below are ingredients

16.5 oz. sunflower oil
7 oz. coconut oil
5.5 oz. potassium hydroxide KOH
16.5 oz. distilled water for the lye mixture
40 oz. distilled water to dilute the soap paste
Either 2 oz. of boric acid or 3 oz. of borax mixed into 10 or 6 oz. of water
Method - combine oils in the crockpot then KOH in water mix together and heat for next 4-5 hours then let sit and there is liquid soap.  Have put everything in except for borax.  Would prefer to leave out.  A friend has a skin condition and asked if I could make some liquid soap for sensitive skin as she liked the bar soap I made her so would prefer not to use borax etc.  (Will leave out glycerin question for now as have no good reason to use ... will research more. ) Cooked soap for four hours then had to go to work unexpectedly and left the crockpot on warm for next 8 hours.  Turned off and let sit.  Now 24 hours later there is a thick opaque layer on top under this is very clear liquid soup.  How do I get rid of this layer, stick blend, heat, time..... This soaping is not as easy as some people make out..but I will continue to persevere and conquor..one day I hope...


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## DeeAnna (Jul 4, 2019)

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Thanks for the additional info. Very helpful.

16.5 oz. sunflower oil
7 oz. coconut oil
5.5 oz. KOH
16.5 oz. distilled water
This will make a liquid soap that has zero superfat IF your KOH is 90% pure. If the KOH has a higher purity, there will be some excess alkali after saponification is done. Find out the purity of your KOH if possible to help troubleshoot this batch and to help you make decent recipes in the future with this KOH.

Another check you should probably make, if done with appropriate caution, is the zap test, because it will tell you if your soap has excess alkali or not. See: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-properly-safely-conduct-the-zap-tongue-test.63199/ I would zap test the liquidy part separate from the thicker part. If the soap doesn't zap, ignore the borax / citric acid thing. You don't need it.

If it does zap, yes, you will need to neutralize the soap. But let's get into that later if you need to go there. All I want to say at this point is do not dilute if you do need to neutralize. Also do NOT follow the instructions in your recipe. Come back here and ask for more advice about neutralizing.

If I was making this soap, the saponification would have been done after 30 minutes of cooking once the batter was at trace. An hour at the most. I can't speak about your situation because I don't know how you make soap, but I'd guess it's fairly safe to say the soap is done after 12 hours of cooking.

I would say the thick layer probably is not overcooked, but it may well be dried out instead due to the long period of heating -- water has evaporated out of this layer. There might also be some foam from mixing. Hard to say. But it's soap, that much is reasonably certain. I'd probably separate the firm part from the more liquid part and dilute them separately. You'll probably need to add a bit more water to dilute the thicker portion, but I think that is probably the solution to that particular problem.

When you do get into diluting, do NOT add all the water the recipe calls for. If you want to dilute, say, 500 grams of paste, start by adding 250 grams of distilled water. Get that mixed in. If it's too thick (and it probably will be) add half again that amount of water -- 125 grams -- and so on. Keep records so you know how much water is required to dilute a given amount of paste. That will make the next dilution of the remaining paste in that batch a little easier. Every batch of liquid soap is different due to differences in the fatty acid profile, the amount of water evaporation during the cook, etc.

And that brings me to another point -- did you use regular (high linoleic) sunflower oil or high oleic sunflower oil? If it's "suitable for frying", it's HO. I'd recommend using HO sunflower next time if you used regular sunflower this time. The amount of dilution water needed may vary depending on which fat you used.

Especially while you're learning, don't make large amounts of soap paste. And even when you're experienced at making liquid soap, bigger batches still aren't necessary unless you're supplying soap to an army. I normally make a batch using 300 grams of fat and that is enough to keep my family in liquid soap for months.

Recommended reading --
Irish Lass: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=428988 see posts 8 and 9
and: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974
Susie: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852
Another good resource: https://milesawayfarm.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/liquid-soapmaking-where-to-start/


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## Karsha2148 (Jul 4, 2019)

Thank you for your reply ph is 8 green mid colour on test strip.  Yes used 'frying one' boy the lessons keep coming.  KOH was bought from soaping supply 'Heirloom body care' does not have purity level in package Will keep on making soap or experimenting until I get it right.   Your help is invaluable.. Is there a book with recipes that you could recommend at this point I don't want to develop my own for a very long long time.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 4, 2019)

Most pH test strips are not accurate and they tell you the pH is a lot lower than it is. Most soap, if properly made, will have a pH between 9 and 11. A soap with pH of 8 is not very likely. Also a pH test, even if accurate, cannot not tell you if there is excess alkali in your soap. Only an excess alkali test can do that ... or the zap test. 

I'm going to be blunt -- you really should get used to evaluating and designing recipes. It's not that difficult. Even if you use someone else's recipe, you really need to check that recipe for yourself using a soap recipe calculator. If you can do that, you can design a recipe on your own. Read the tutorials I provided in my previous post -- they're as good or better than any book.


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## Susie (Jul 9, 2019)

^^^What DeeAnna said!  

Plus, learning to zap test a soap will save you many "failed" batches.  One quick test can tell you if it is lye heavy or not.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 9, 2019)

Karsha2148 said:


> Now 24 hours later there is a thick opaque layer on top under this is very clear liquid soup.  How do I get rid of this layer, stick blend, heat, time


This sounds like you added the dilution water to the soap before it became paste? Some people actually make LS that way.

If that's true, then I would warm the batch up to around 160°F, cover and hold that temp. Watch that it doesn't get too hot and overflow. Use a spoon or spatula to break up the thick opaque layer. (Stick blender not recommended.) Stir from time to time and eventually all the thick stuff should dissolve into liquid.

Borax helps to dissolve the soap. It acts as a water softener and also neutralizes any excess lye. If your friend has sensitive skin, as I do, I would not hesitate to add it.

To make the recommended 33% Borax solution, completely dissolve 3 oz Borax into 6 oz. hot water and don't let it cool down or the Borax will particulate out and settle on the bottom as a solid rock.


Karsha2148 said:


> ph is 8 green mid colour on test strip.


Liquid Soap generally has pH of 11 - 9. My guess is, the reason it tested pH 8 is because you tested the liquid part and not the opaque layer. Since the opaque layer has undissolved soap in it, the liquid part is mostly water with very little soap in it, which explains the pH 8.



Karsha2148 said:


> Is there a book with recipes that you could recommend at this point


There's good basic information, Tips & Tricks and a tutorial on this site:
*http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/search/label/tutorial*


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## Karsha2148 (Jul 10, 2019)

Thank you all for your information.  Liquid soap came out ok.  Not quite clear but quite useable.  Now trying to work out percentage rates not a mathematician so hard to get head around.  Will keep on reading.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 10, 2019)

Karsha2148 said:


> Will keep on reading.


In my experience, too much reading can lead to confusion. It would be good to keep in mind that there are about as many ways to make LS as there are LS-ers! LOL  For example, I don't use any additives to make LS; Irish Lass does. I soap at 0% superfat for clarity; others use 3% SF and don't mind if the end result is opaque (generally speaking). There is no right or wrong; just personal preference. 

You've been given some excellent advice in this thread. Be sure to read all the recommended links and make notes. Making small batches using 12-16 oz oils is key at this stage. I would recommend 50% coconut oil + 50% liquid oil of choice as a balanced formula. With 50% coconut oil, your dilution water is 40% soap to 60% water by weight. (Divide the weight of the paste by 2 and then multiply that number by 3 to get the amount of water needed.)

Here's a link where you can post your recipe to get input before making it:
*Recipe Feedback*

Do not add the dilution water until the paste is cooked and tests neutral (NOT the same thing as using pH strips). You can actually make the paste, cover it and stop there without diluting right away. Wait until you have a thick vaseline-like mass to work with.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 15, 2019)

_"...others use 3% SF and don't mind if the end result is opaque..."_

I make liquid soap using a 2-3% superfat and can get a clear soap just fine. I have repeatedly found it's the choice of fats that affects clarity. Using a modest amount of superfat does not.

_"...My guess is, the reason it tested pH 8 is because you tested the liquid part and not the opaque layer. Since the opaque layer has undissolved soap in it, the liquid part is mostly water with very little soap in it, which explains the pH 8...."_

You're guessing the exact opposite of what actually happens. In a properly diluted sample of soap, the pH will test HIGHER than in a sample of concentrated soap. You _cannot _test the pH of a concentrated solution -- you MUST dilute the soap to a consistent concentration to get accurate, repeatable results. There is excellent information about properly diluting and testing soap with a pH meter at the http://alaiynab.blogspot.com/ site you referenced above.


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