# for hot process, when to add salt, sugar, milk?



## jnl

I plan to make hot process soaps mostly, so I can add my EO and superfats after the saponification has finished so they retain their scent/properties better.  More work, and sadly, very limited design options.  But I care more about the quality and use of the final bar than how pretty it looks.

But when should I add sugars (refined or honey etc)?   Should I add it at trace?  To the lye water?  I like the idea of adding honey after saponification to protect it.  And most sugars added after during saponification turn a dark color, so is later better, or does the soap need the sugar "eaten" to have the lathering effect?  I use no palm or animal fats or castor, so i will need lather help!

Same with adding a little salt to help speed up hardening?  Should I add that to the lye water?  Or later?  My guess would be to add it to the lye water.

And also milk....when is it best to add that?  I would think that would be best after saponification so the milk is not chemically burned.  


and when i add additives after the saponification, should i use a stick blender?  or is it too thick at that point?


There is a CP and an M&P thread, but why no HP?

Most of my questions related to HP, and there seems to be much less info about it on the web.  Everyone seems to be doing CP and M&P.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

It's because the differences between HP and CP are so small compared to the similarities, where as CP/HP and M&P are really very different indeed.  Recipes, oils and all that jazz work in CP and HP.  You can add all things before the cook in HP, which actually means the difference is essentially just cooking or not.  

There will not be a "HP" section, because of the similarity.

Now, you can and should add things after the cook - scent and superfat, as you pointed out.  

I don't use honey, but rather sugar.  I add it to the lye water.  Milks depend on how much and what type - HP needs water to cook, so keeping 50% of your fluid out of the mix until it is cooked might well give you a dodgy batter indeed.

When I add in my SF, exfliation stuff and scent, I just give it a good mix with a spatula


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## Obsidian

You add salt to your water before adding the lye or it won't dissolve.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Another point made in the thread about dog shampoo - hp soaps need to cure just like cp soaps need to. They are safe after the cook, but certainly far from good to go.


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## seven

^^

Good point Craig, some ppl got confused with the terms "safe to use" and "ready to use" in hp. hp soaps tend to have much more water than cp, they ended up curing for longer.


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## jnl

I say its faster just because a number of blogs/videos i have seen have said their HP soap is good to sell after a week or two. Obviously it will depend on the oils used. Anything with a high amount of olive oil will take quite a bit longer. Adding any liquids after the HP will make it take longer too.

If i use powdered milks or buy cream versions instead of milk versions, then i might be able to add them after and keep the initial water still high. Would a coconut cream or cows/goat cream be considered full water amount, or part of the fat? its kind of both....




The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Another point made in the thread about dog shampoo - hp soaps need to cure just like cp soaps need to. They are safe after the cook, but certainly far from good to go.


 
most of the water should be cooked out of HP soaps. you cant keep water hot for a long time without it evaporating.




seven said:


> ^^
> 
> Good point Craig, some ppl got confused with the terms "safe to use" and "ready to use" in hp. hp soaps tend to have much more water than cp, they ended up curing for longer.


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## Dorymae

jnl said:


> I say its faster just because a number of blogs/videos i have seen have said their HP soap is good to sell after a week or two.  Obviously it will depend on the oils used.  Anything with a high amount of olive oil will take quite a bit longer.  Adding any liquids after the HP will make it take longer too.




UGHHHHH, No, No, and No.  Do not believe everything you read on the internet.  No HP soap is not ready to sell in a few weeks! That is if you ever want to sell to the same person again.  Is it safe, yes.  Will it be a nice hard bar that will last as long as it should? No.  Is it safe, yes.  Will it have as nice of a lather and be as mild as it should?  No.

There are sellers out there who want a quick buck and will sell soap far before it is ready.  The buyers of these soaps either think, geeze this didn't last as long, lather as nice, or isn't as mild as ________'s Soap.  Business gone. Or they haven't tried homemade soap before and think - pfft.. don't know why people would spend money on this, it certainly isn't any better than _____fill in commercial soap brand.

Okay off the soap box, but seriously 4 weeks minimum, better at 6 to 8 weeks.  Olive oil soaps much much longer.


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## jnl

I am not selling, so it doesnt really matter. If i use a bar because I dont want to wait and it doesnt last as long, its no big deal. The other bars will continue to dry.

are those cheap PH meters ($15 on amazon) very accurate? everyone says the test strips are not at all accurate. i want to test my soaps at a bunch of different stages to see how the ph changes over time, but its not worth doing if the results can be off significantly.


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## IrishLass

jnl said:


> I say its faster just because a number of blogs/videos i have seen have said their HP soap is good to sell after a week or two.


 
Granted, but then again, I'm afraid that many people say or do lots of things in blogs and videos that don't necessarily make for good advice. And it also doesn't mean that the blogger's soap is awesome or the best that it can be after only a week or 2 of cure. Although the internet is a wonderful place, it's also a dangerous place with lots of bad and faulty soap-making info. That's why I love this forum- it's a great sounding board that goes far in helping to weed out the good soap-making info from the bad. Lots of our members on the forum have been making soap for many, many years and their experience has enabled them able to spot bad or faulty info quite readily. 



jnl said:


> Obviously it will depend on the oils used. Anything with a high amount of olive oil will take quite a bit longer. Adding any liquids after the HP will make it take longer too.


 
Although that's true to a point, there are other factors at play at the mico-chemical level inside the soap matrix and also at the surface as it reacts with carbon dioxide in the air, all of which make the soap milder with a longer cure.



jnl said:


> most of the water should be cooked out of HP soaps. you cant keep water hot for a long time without it evaporating.


 
But the thing is that HP soap requires much more water than CP soap in order to keep it fluid enough during the cook so that it can be molded half way decently. If all the water was evaporated out during cook, one would have nothing but a bunch of waxy globs that won't adhere very well to each other to make a cohesive soap (been there, done that).

IrishLass


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

To test the pH of a soap, you have to make a 1% soap solution in distilled water and test that with a properly calibrated piece of quality equipment. 

All other (ALL other) methods of testing pH are not worth the time taken to type out the response. Unless you do the above method, you aren't comparing accurate numbers at all.

There is no need for pH testing in making bar soaps. You zap test for safety - if it passes, it's good to go. PH has no relevance for what we do.


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## jnl

I know there is a lot of misinformation in the web.  That is why I have been skeptical of information on here as well.  

I haven't found any videos or blogs of anyone actually testing it out, so I will try out citric acid with a small control batch, a 0.5% after-hp addition, and a 1% after-hp addition and see what happens.  I will try to video tape it, but I hate cameras and am not good at speaking, so that may not turn out.  I will at least take pictures.  If I can find some ACV power for a reasonable price I will try that out too.

But I will have to wait until I can get a PH meter.  Are the cheap $15 ones on amazon accurate?  I have strips but people say they are totally inaccurate.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

jnl said:


> I know there is a lot of misinformation in the web.  That is why I have been skeptical of information on here as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't found any videos or blogs of anyone actually testing it out, so I will try out citric acid with a small control batch, a 0.5% after-hp addition, and a 1% after-hp addition and see what happens.  I will try to video tape it, but I hate cameras and am not good at speaking, so that may not turn out.  I will at least take pictures.  If I can find some ACV power for a reasonable price I will try that out too.
> 
> 
> 
> But I will have to wait until I can get a PH meter.  Are the cheap $15 ones on amazon accurate?  I have strips but people say they are totally inaccurate.




See my post above about pH reading.


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## Hazel

jnl said:


> I know there is a lot of misinformation in the web.   _*That is why I have been skeptical of information on here as well.*_



Absolutely! You should always verify information. I highly recommend you search for answers to your questions to corroborate if what you've been told here is correct.  Google is a wonderful tool.  Not only can you find numerous links to information about HP soap making, there are also other soap forums where you could find more info. :grin:

As for the pH meters, Amazon has a feedback system so interested people can base their decisions on previous customers' experiences. I'd check what the reviewers had to say about the meters since there are many different brands. But as TEG already mentioned, a meter isn't necessary for soapmaking. Soap is alkaline. You might consider syndets if you want a cleansing product with a lower pH.



jnl said:


> I say its faster just because a number of blogs/videos  i have seen have said their HP soap is good to sell after a week or  two.



I've seen a number of blogs/videos which have said Santa Claus is real.


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## Relle

Hazel said:


> I've seen a number of blogs/videos which have said Santa Claus is real.


 
Of course he is Hazel :shh:.


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## jnl

the cheaper amazon meters have varied ratings.  some people say they are very accurate.  a couple people said they are inaccurate.  some say they do not last long at all.  some say they are great.  they do come with calibration liquids, which is good.


i dont get why it would not work with soap?  their range is from 1-14
if i mix the soap with water and compare it to the plain distilled water, shouldnt  that give me an idea?  even if its not totally accurate to outside readings from an expensive meter, (in theory) it should be accurate to itself.  So if i measure a 12 on one bar and then a 9 on another, then i know one is lower ph than the other.  or if i measure the same bar over time, it should show if it changes.

i have no interest in doing a zap test. i ate soap once as a kid and have no desire to do it again.  my friend who has been making soap for 10 years said she did it once to try it but hasnt since.  if you use a lye calculator properly, its fine.  i have not heard any stories of people getting lye burns from using a soap that has fully cooled.


i have zero interest in synthetic chemicals.  the whole point of me getting into making soaps etc is to get away from the chemicals.  people lived without synthetic chemicals for thousands of years.  and without access to wonderful things like cocoabutter!  so im sure i can find a way to make it work.


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## hmlove1218

Zap test is not a taste test, but a sensory test. It's a feeling, not a taste. And there's no need to eat soap. If you don't feel comfortable sticking the tip of your tongue to a bar, you can wet the tip of your fingers, rub the soap, and then touch your fingers to your tongue. 

Theoretically, if you use a calculator and follow the measurements, your soap should be perfectly safe. However, there is plenty of room for mechanical and human error. Scales are not infallible. Changes in air pressure can affect a scale. Zap testing is a surefire way to ensure that you aren't going to burn off your skin (or your fur baby's). You should really reconsider using it.


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## Dorymae

My question is why do you want to know the PH of your soap?  All true soap will be somewhere between 8-12. Most will be 9 or 10. 

Why would it matter?  You can not get soap ( real soap not detergent) any lower than 8 without it beginning to breakdown- literally. Soap, being a wash off product would not adversely affect your skin even being a higher PH because your skin will naturally readjust it's PH back to normal in minutes. 

Knowing this why are you concerned with the PH?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'm afraid to say that the zap test cannot be substituted by a pH test -

Let's say you test the pH and manage to get it lab quality accurate. You get a reading. How do you know if that means it is safe or not?

You don't. Each soap, when perfectly and utterly safe, can have a different pH. One soap can be totally fine and sit at 10, another can be fine and be at 9. Yet another can be 12 and not be harmful. 

The issue comes from excess alkalinity, which is not measured like pH. The option that soapers go to is the zap test. 

I have to say, considering that you are looking to do something new and want help and advice in doing so, you are extremely closed minded. Zero interest in zap testing. Won't use avocado because it's deadly. Cannot use so many oils for ethical reasons. It often seems that you have decided before you ask the question and just want someone to confirm your decision. 

But the answers given come from experienced soapers. A lot of whom have a long history making soaps (longer than it is polite for a gentleman to mention!) and we can benefit from their experience if we are willing. 

Soaping, alas, is not magic. A lot of what you want to do is either very hard or impossible when you include your restrictions. I can't make a pork chop for a vegan - it just isn't possible. I can make a slab of cooked tofu or something, but not a pork chop.


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## jnl

human skin can re-adjust quickly but a dogs skin cant.  i am making a dog bar.

if i am able to reduce the ph from 10 to 9 even that would be a benefit.  i dont know how it will work out.  we'll see.  it doesnt hurt to do a small test batch.




Dorymae said:


> My question is why do you want to know the PH of your soap?  All true soap will be somewhere between 8-12. Most will be 9 or 10.
> 
> Why would it matter?  You can not get soap ( real soap not detergent) any lower than 8 without it beginning to breakdown- literally. Soap, being a wash off product would not adversely affect your skin even being a higher PH because your skin will naturally readjust it's PH back to normal in minutes.
> 
> Knowing this why are you concerned with the PH?


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## Dorymae

You may want to consider a vinegar rinse for a dog, to help their skin readjust. The same as we do for our hair if using a shampoo bar.


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## jnl

the people i know who make and sell soaps dont zap test or ph test.  my friend said it tastes disgusting, which is why she doesnt do it.  do all of you lick every batch you make?  i just dont see a need for it.

i will use avocado, just not for my dog bar.  and there are plenty of oils with similar properties to avocado, so thats not a big deal.  soap has been made for thousands of years, most of which never had any castor oil or other fancy oils we have.  and i dont get why so many people seem to be so against me doing a test to see what happens when i add citric acid after HP.  whats the big deal?  if it fails, it fails.  if it doesnt, like soap queen and a number of others have said, then maybe its something that can benefit my dog bar.

avoiding unethical products or risky ones for this specific use is not closed minded.  its a pain in the butt, but that doesnt mean i shouldnt try.

gluten-free baking is a huge pain in the ass.  but i dont really have any choice.  so im used to lots of trial and error working with limited options.





The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm afraid to say that the zap test cannot be substituted by a pH test -
> 
> Let's say you test the pH and manage to get it lab quality accurate. You get a reading. How do you know if that means it is safe or not?
> 
> You don't. Each soap, when perfectly and utterly safe, can have a different pH. One soap can be totally fine and sit at 10, another can be fine and be at 9. Yet another can be 12 and not be harmful.
> 
> The issue comes from excess alkalinity, which is not measured like pH. The option that soapers go to is the zap test.
> 
> I have to say, considering that you are looking to do something new and want help and advice in doing so, you are extremely closed minded. Zero interest in zap testing. Won't use avocado because it's deadly. Cannot use so many oils for ethical reasons. It often seems that you have decided before you ask the question and just want someone to confirm your decision.
> 
> But the answers given come from experienced soapers. A lot of whom have a long history making soaps (longer than it is polite for a gentleman to mention!) and we can benefit from their experience if we are willing.
> 
> Soaping, alas, is not magic. A lot of what you want to do is either very hard or impossible when you include your restrictions. I can't make a pork chop for a vegan - it just isn't possible. I can make a slab of cooked tofu or something, but not a pork chop.


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## jnl

yes, i will try that.



Dorymae said:


> You may want to consider a vinegar rinse for a dog, to help their skin readjust. The same as we do for our hair if using a shampoo bar.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

jnl said:


> the people i know who make and sell soaps dont zap test or ph test. my friend said it tastes disgusting, which is why she doesnt do it. do all of you lick every batch you make? i just dont see a need for it.


 
I zap test every batch, yes.  Mainly because I do a lot of HP and want to know when the soap is cooked before I cook it more than it needs to be.  Sure, it's not like sipping a delicious cup of tea, but it is far from terrible.  The positives outweigh the negatives, by a very long way.

If you don't test at all, that is something else.  If you are testing to see if a bar is safe, pH is useless.  Any bar of real soap is going to change the pH of your dog's skin, so if you lower the pH by 1 point, you haven't really won anything.  



jnl said:


> i will use avocado, just not for my dog bar. and there are plenty of oils with similar properties to avocado, so thats not a big deal. soap has been made for thousands of years, most of which never had any castor oil or other fancy oils we have. and i dont get why so many people seem to be so against me doing a test to see what happens when i add citric acid after HP. whats the big deal? if it fails, it fails. if it doesnt, like soap queen and a number of others have said, then maybe its something that can benefit my dog bar.


 
You can of course do anything that you jolly well like.  But you ask the question and people answer.  If we don't give the answers that you want, that is not a problem.  People are saying not to do it because that is their advice.  The whole point of a forum is learning from the experience of other people, so if you want to try something regardless of the advice, go for it, but DO NOT complain about getting advice via a medium specifically designed for that.



jnl said:


> avoiding unethical products or risky ones for this specific use is not closed minded. its a pain in the butt, but that doesnt mean i shouldnt try.
> 
> gluten-free baking is a huge pain in the ass. but i dont really have any choice. so im used to lots of trial and error working with limited options.


 
This is a good example.  You might well be unable to process gluten.  You are able to use palm oil - one is not a choice, the other is.  I choose to avoid eating carbs in the evening - it does not mean that I am unable to do so and I have to accept that there are certain things that I can't eat in the evening or I have to accept that I have to sometimes eat carbs, such as when I am out for dinner.

But the closed mindedness was more a reference to the points where you are dead set on doing certain things regardless of the advice given.  By all means, do what you want, but then please ask for advice when you are open to other suggestions.  Zap testing, for example - you are dead set against it even though you have never even tried it.


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## mx5inpenn

The worst thought to me before I made my first batch was the zap test.  I had my mouth washed out with soap as a kid (more than once!!) and really didn't like the idea of doing it voluntarily. I still did it and it really isn't that bad. It doesn't taste good, but it isn't the end of the world either. Of course, I haven't gotten zapped yet either...


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## jnl

if you do a zap test and get a zap because the lye is not done, do you get a burn on your tongue?


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## Dorymae

No you don't get a burn. It is an unpleasant feeling but it is instant. Believe me you won't hold the soap to your tongue if there is a zap. It is a small shock like feeling. Like you touched a battery to your tongue, but it doesn't hurt you just alerts you without a shadow of a doubt.

If you question whether it was a zap- it wasn't.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I wet the soap and rub some of the lather on my fingers - if no tingling, I touch that to my tongue - if no zap, I touch the bar to my tongue.


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## TeresaT

TEG, you are the politest, most patient person I have ever come across on a forum.  Bravo, sir!  I read this whole thread just to see if anyone called her/him out for being so argumentative and stubborn.  I guess I'm the only one that thinks like that.  I've gotta work on my bad attitude and learn some patience.


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## JBot

TeresaT said:


> TEG, you are the politest, most patient person I have ever come across on a forum.  Bravo, sir!  I read this whole thread just to see if anyone called her/him out for being so argumentative and stubborn.  I guess I'm the only one that thinks like that.  I've gotta work on my bad attitude and learn some patience.



You're not the only one, believe me.  This thread had me banging my head on the table.  I'm pretty much a dedicated HP-er, so there's plenty I could have added, but I this was so frustrating to read that I didn't trust myself to be nice.


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