# Researching before making soap:)



## Dahila (Mar 12, 2015)

I can not understand why people post constantly  questions about the simplest things.  Why they do not acquire at least basic knowledge about making soap.  It is as easy as to click -->Forum--> search bar on left hand side and put it in what ever question one does have. 
English is my second language and I learned everything I know here on this forum.  Every other forum is just too snotty and does not share like here. 
I am getting upset with volume measurement and the same question all over again.  I admire people here, you are the most patient group of people , I had ever met on internet. 
It is my first thread here,  I would love to know your opinions about it 
Thank you


----------



## shunt2011 (Mar 12, 2015)

I agree 100% It has been a bit frustrating lately. Especially those who just want everyone to give them a recipe so that they can make awesome soap with no work. I spent months researching on this forum and another one. This one was the friendliest and most helpful so I stayed here. 

There is an enormous amount of information available on this forum if folks just do a little work. Then if there are still questions, ask away. Lately the questions have been so basic and it's maddening.

Then after a few weeks many will be selling their soaps, which is a whole different issue.


----------



## Dahila (Mar 12, 2015)

I think making the soap without any experience and start selling it , even without proper 8 weeks or more of curing , it is just irresponsible.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 12, 2015)

I admit, I read a lot of the old posts going back at least 10 pages when I started out.  Took away most (but not all  ) of the obvious questions.

But as you say, not everyone does and it can get a little bit old.  I sometimes lose my temper a little and get frustrated, but I like how we all generally keep each other on the level a little bit, too.


----------



## Dorymae (Mar 12, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> Then after a few weeks many will be selling their soaps, which is a whole different issue.



True, but people don't listen Shunt, and if you try to tell them why it's a bad idea, they think you don't want competition, or that you are trampling their hopes and dreams. 

The only real thing that gets me is that they will fail, usually spectacularly and then they think it has to be the industry or the economy rather than their lack of knowledge that has caused their failure. 

I was called snarky today for pointing out someone's lack of knowledge and plans to sell! Honestly I laughed when I read it because snarky I was not, however I'm fully capable of it. ( I wonder what they would have said if I really was snarky!!)

In short I think I'm going to wash my hands of commenting on posts that I know are super new to making soap and want to sell. I figure just let them go, maybe a few of them will learn and grow from their mistakes and take advice without getting offended. The rest will be gone before long.


----------



## Seawolfe (Mar 12, 2015)

Everyone here is SO MEAN!! I want to use my great grandmothers recipe using shot glasses as measures and her sacred recipe that involves raisins, uncooked pasta,  grappa and chicken skin. I plan to sell it as soon as it firms up.  I had just ONE question about how to stop it dripping after 3 days, and everyone butted into the thread with opinions that I did NOT ask for!! I will never post here again!!!!1!!! 

<cue dramatic flounce>


----------



## Susie (Mar 12, 2015)

mrsbrightside said:


> As a newbie I find this thread vaguely rude. Yes, I did my research and came up with my own recipe and Lord knows where anyone finds a soap recipe measured in volume, but heck, people have to start learning somewhere. And if they're asking, then at least they're trying to learn from their mistakes. I'm sure I've asked or said something deemed stupid on here by someone, but I asked; and now I know. Everyone has been helpful. I truly don't think there's such a thing as a stupid question & saying there is might hinder people from asking for help in the future. As for people that want to sell right away, they're probably not going to listen to opinions telling them not to regardless & they either will or won't. Soaping is exciting, but people that truly have a passion for it will outlast those that don't.



I was going to stay out of this thread until I read this.  I need to correct a couple of misconceptions for you.

Yes, they are learning.  Yes, we understand that.  Yes, we are patient and thorough with the people who truly want to learn and demonstrate that with at least a rudimentary knowledge of any part of soapmaking.  See the many, many threads that we repeat the same information over and over as proof of this.  

Even if someone comes brand new to the forum with *only* the willingness to learn, we will step up and help.  I will go dig out every last video I found helpful and link every sticky of the forum I know they need.  And I am not alone.  Most of us are more than happy to help!  You just would not understand the rush I get when someone makes that first batch of soap that turns out well, and I know I had some small part of helping them learn.  

However, we have had a few people lately that are not really wanting to learn.  They want us to tell them how to fix a bad recipe, and nothing else.  Then, when we explain the whole of what is wrong with what they did, they do not take it well.  And then they call us names, or make baseless accusations that are patently untrue.  Usually these are spread out a bit more, but we have just had some too close together.  

Worst of all, however, are the ones who absolutely refuse to learn.  After asking us to help, and asking our opinions, they refuse.  There's not much we can do to help those.  Unfortunately, those are the very ones who think they can crank soap out and make LOTS OF MONEY RIGHT NOW!!!

The OP of this thread is a brand new soaper(who hasn't even made a batch yet!) who took the time to do the research to avoid asking questions that have been answered over and over.  Kudos to them!  We can wish for many, many more of those types of folks!  Until then, though, we would prefer to help those that truly want our help.


----------



## Obsidian (Mar 12, 2015)

mrsbrightside, no one has a problem with questions like you have asked and yes, everyone has to start some where. Its more of the "I've never made soap and have a order to fill by next week so I need a recipe" type posts that are so very annoying. 
In defense of newbies though. they don't know that soap is so complicated and that recipes can take so much time/money to perfect. They probably think its like baking a cake and there are simple, basic recipes that will turn out wonderful and be sell-able right away.

When I started, I had no idea you couldn't use volume measures. That how I had seen it done as a child so I though that was how it was still done. I got schooled and not in a necessarily nice way. It almost drove me away from the site as I felt attacked when I was very excited and just wanted to learn.

Yes, its easy enough to search the site but you need to have a idea what you are searching for. I didn't know handmade soap was so popular so it never crossed my mind to go on youtube to watch instruction videos. If you don't know ingredients need to be weighed, how can you seek out info for that? Google really doesn't help as there is a ton of horrible instructions on soap making, how to know the good from the bad.

If I see a post that makes me unhappy, I simple don't answer. I also don't assume that when someone says they want to sell, that they mean it will be immediately. I've seen some people say they want to eventually sell, once they get a good product and people still jump all over them and are often quite rude about it.

I really do think there are times that people should keep their opinions about selling to themselves. Unless someone posts that they are going to sell their first batch or some other silliness, stop assuming that they are going to sell their beginning soaps.


----------



## CTAnton (Mar 12, 2015)

Kudos to mrsbrightside! I'm a newbie as well.I've sat many an hour playing contentedly on soap calc. I've spent hours watching youtube videos. I have a library of well read soaping books.I've gone back on this website for page upon page researching the topics that interested me or were pertinent.I've also made a lot of soap, replete with mistakes.  I have received a lot of help on this website and have gleaned some wonderful information. I thank everyone that has responded to my questions.With that said, several things come to mind.Perhaps we can as a group to simply ask people to do some more research on their own. For instance, for someone using volume as opposed to weight simply state that this would be a difficult recipe to share. For those looking for THE perfect soap recipe let us remember we live in a time of immediate gratification. For those looking to sell their soaps very early on in their soap making careers I refer back to the immediate gratification statement.We are also not living in what I would call boom times; a lot of people are struggling economically and are looking for an additional money stream.30 years ago I became familiar with what PITA stands for...maybe we can come up with something similar to GENTLY encourage people to do more homework. Lastly,as in some groups it is said;"take what you need and leave the rest". Years from now, I hope I can be of as much help to someone else as you all have been to me. 'Nuff said!


----------



## Dahila (Mar 12, 2015)

Susie I made already many batches of soap ) two years already : ) remember the liquid soap?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 12, 2015)

Regarding rudeness, I have to say that when people start a post that is answered, not on the second or third or 10th page of the forum, but on the very first page!  Many people seem to not even read other threads other than what they themselves create.  There is a huge difference between people who want to learn and those who just want to be given everything on a platter and are willing to do next to no work at all themselves.

Please don't confuse it with someone starting out.  As you can see, I am also not overly long here and it was my first (and only) soaping forum.  When I started, I read a lot of old and new posts, then I asked for feedback on my first proposed recipe, filling in the blanks and correcting misunderstood parts.  There is a very big difference between the two methods, I am sure you will agree.


----------



## lenarenee (Mar 12, 2015)

Why do people ask the "simple" questions?

For many, many different reasons. Some are lazy and want you to tell them step by step. 

Some are looking for confirmation of what they have learned; after all how many times are we told that you can't believe everything on the internet???

Some people are insecure and by making "contact" on a forum...and "hearing" something from a living breathing human being....they can move on from there.

Some people are NOT visual learners...and watching the best soaping vids from YouTube do nothing for them.

Some forums (especially frequented by the younger generation) are filled with people who ask basic, simple, and/or stupid questions. It's the culture on some forums. Not here - but it takes hours of reading to catch on to the culture here.

People research in different ways. I know what to do with a card catalog, but less friendly with computer research because I don't know how to judge a good source well.

And there's other reasons I'm sure.

Did I mention that some people are lazy?

Oh, and I've wanted to say this for a long, long time but was afraid to. For those new soap makers who want ignore good advice, or want to start selling right away....let them.  Most humans learn best by mistakes. Most only hear what they want to hear, and will do what they want anyway.

Let them make their choices and fail. They'll either give up totally, or  work harder and better.


----------



## shunt2011 (Mar 12, 2015)

^^^
I am more than willing and happy to help folks. Even really new people. What irritates me is the people who consistently are asking for recipes without doing any research what so ever. And those who make a few batches and ask if they are okay enough to sell. I've helped many people here, as well as in real life. I'm not afraid of competition of any sort. I stand behind what I have created that took me a boatload of time, effort and research. I read almost every single post here in the beginners & soap forum. I wanted to know as much as I possibly could and there is so much helpful information here alone. 

I will almost always offer help to a poster.  However, if I see they aren't listening and continue to ask the same kind of questions when they've been given answers to but choose to ignore it because they aren't hearing or getting the answer they want.  I will walk away from the conversation and not post anymore

We were all new at some point. I don't think anyone is being rude in any way, just stating facts as they see them.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 12, 2015)

lenarenee said:


> ...........................Oh, and I've wanted to say this for a long, long time but was afraid to. For those new soap makers who want ignore good advice, or want to start selling right away....let them.  Most humans learn best by mistakes. Most only hear what they want to hear, and will do what they want anyway.
> 
> Let them make their choices and fail. They'll either give up totally, or  work harder and better.



While that would be great, the problem is the impact that has in the meantime.  Imagine if you wanted to sell but everyone had already tried a bar of soap from someone who was not selling good soap - no one would want to by your product because every product they tried before turned out to be either rubbish or caused them injury.

If they listen or not, I will still say it.  The rest is up to them.  One thing I will NOT do, though, is help them except to prevent them doing something outright dangerous.


----------



## kumudini (Mar 12, 2015)

*Brand new member*

I just joined yesterday. Have been soaping for past 4 months. Already 10 almost Successful batches old before I even thought of googling " soap forums". whatever I have learnt was by reading blogs and watching videos mostly beginner ones.  I made sure I knew all the basics before I started, have all the basic oils and lye and safety equipment ready. All my soaps have been my own recipes or some promising ones which I tweaked. 
Having said all that, I have gone through many threads on this forum in the last 3 days. am already familiar with some of the most helpful names, Susie anyone?A wealth of information if one knew how to look. I'm going to learn how to search myself and I know there is a thread for that as well.
But it is my experience that not every one has the kind of time I have, not everyone is as click happy as I am, not everyone has harnessed the power of Google and most importantly not as inclined to learn the ways of learning if you know what I mean.
So I'm grateful that such learner questions are being met with such kindness on this forum, either  fully answered or gently redirected. because they do need to learn, for the sake of their customers.  To those who want everything on a platter, I say please pay it forward as you do get it from some really kind members.


----------



## dixiedragon (Mar 12, 2015)

I don't have a problem with the "basic" questions because when you first start out, you don't even know the questions to ask. I have seen soda ash described in SO many ways here - as a rind, a crust, white stuff, weird white stuff on top, etc. Same thing with gel. Not using aluminum is "common" knowledge, which is why it's not mentioned very frequently, so you have people making soap in aluminum bread pans. IME, most soap making books are not particuarly good b/c they are long on pretty pictures and lovely descriptions and short on A+B=C explanations of things.


----------



## reinbeau (Mar 12, 2015)

I've been on the internet a long, long time and hear this complaint about newbies on many different subjects.  I answer questions. I put together a new soaper blog post that I give to people to help get them started.  You know the ones who are seeking vs. the ones who want a handout.  I prefer to focus on the former.


----------



## Susie (Mar 12, 2015)

Dahila said:


> Susie I made already many batches of soap ) two years already : ) remember the liquid soap?



Sorry, honey!  I have the flu, and I am just not functioning well this week.  Please forgive me!


----------



## Seawolfe (Mar 12, 2015)

I have all the patience in the world for questions - we were all newbies once.

However my patience wears thin when someone has an agenda other than learning about soap and some general principles, and insists we deliver the information that they require immediately!

Every forum, blog, website and internet space has its own culture, its always a good idea to read around, get a feel for it and read the stickies for the forum you are posting in.


----------



## Susie (Mar 12, 2015)

mrsbrightside said:


> To clarify my statement of saying this thread was "vaguely rude", I wasn't trying to attack any of the posters before me . I actually read a post earlier today where someone had made soap using volume measurements and couldn't figure out why it wasn't setting up right, and then this thread showed up not long after. If I was that person seeing this thread I wouldn't be able to help feeling miffed-whether it was directly intended at me or not. Typed words can come off wrong to some people and the tone can easily be misunderstood. I agree with lenarenee on why ppl post seemingly stupid questions. Company, commiseration, validation, attention...sometimes I wonder if they're gag questions lol. I didn't realize people had asked for help and then bad mouthed those that input...I'm sorry if my response came off so critical in that case. But there is a fine line between complaining and gossiping and sarcasm and rudeness. Everyone that has responded to my questions has been super helpful, especially 2-3 people & I'm so grateful for that. If there are stupid people on the forum they'll weed themselves out before long...



I really didn't think you were being "so critical".  I thought you were asking/making a statement about exactly what you were trying to say.  Which, if I had been fairly new, would be exactly my own reaction.  However, I have been on this side of that conversation for a while now.  And I have had my fair share of being called names and confronted for giving truth to someone who did not want it.  But I am not going to let folks like that scare me off.   I am going to hang in there and help and explain to anyone who wants my/our help.  

I thought you honestly needed to understand what is going on that folks would react like they did.  And that you really would learn from what we said.  You have already proven yourself as one who wants to learn and will apply that knowledge.  We want to help folks like you, truly!


----------



## Cindy2428 (Mar 12, 2015)

I have also seen a recent spike in basic questions that with a minimal search effort have been answered here many, many times. I'm contemplating putting together a standardized response post - These types of folks don't read Stickies either. This forum is successful because the great majority here love soap. They enjoy learning and sharing and making themselves the best soapers they can be. Frankly mrsbrightside, I think in general the dedicated base here is very accommodating to the "fly-by-nighters" Not once has one of these types of posts been ignored or answered unkindly. It's pretty obvious to determine the get rich schemers who don't really want to learn.


----------



## dixiedragon (Mar 12, 2015)

I don't have a problem with people asking us for recipes, because the asker can actually interact with us. There is a LOT Of information out there, but how do you know if it's good? Remember, we had somebody posting articles right here about making edible soap with soapwort and avoiding the evils of lye. Google "soap without lye" and you get all kinds of hits. 

I don't think it's necessarily about wanting a "handout" but rather not wanting to do it wrong. And wanting very precise instructions so as not to do it wrong.


----------



## TVivian (Mar 12, 2015)

I think everyone here is SUPER patient in answering basic questions over, and over, and over. I keep waiting for the day when someone says "USE THE SEARCH BAR!" But no one ever does. The people here are just too polite and sometimes even to those who don't deserve it. I belong to a Disneyland forum. In the beginning, it was ok to ask "is it crowded today?" What time is the five o clock parade?" "Look at this picture of the castle!" And then, after time it just got old and the members lost their patience and you should see the rudeness that ensued. 

When I first started wanting to make soap, Google was a great tool. Also the library, or the bookstore. It may have been hard to find good info years ago on basic soap making, but now it's so easy to at least learn the very basics. 
I've been around here for awhile and am still impressed by the kindness here. I don't have the patience to tell every person who wants to sell after two batches, not to. Im glad there are people here who do!


----------



## kchaystack (Mar 12, 2015)

Over on the mead forum I am a member of we have a 'new bee' guide that answers all the FAQ.  When someone asks something that is answered in that document, we point them to that and tell them to read it, the answer is in there.  

Maybe the guru's on the site can put something together like that.  Or at least an actual FAQ post like the acronym post, and then everyone can keep that handy to reply with.


----------



## dixiedragon (Mar 12, 2015)

I typed "dark spot" unto the search bar. Here are the results:
*What's going on with my soap?*
*OK, I'll bite. Radish soap?*
*My first batch of soap (by myself)* 
*Alkenet soap*
*What soapy thing have you done today?*
*need your help re lye pockets*
*Wrapped bars cure?*
*CP Soap Making Virgin! Recipe Help!*
*Catty Competitors*
*Is my cat a super genius, or is it just me?*

None of these is about gel. There IS a thread about gel towards the end of the list, but I can see how a newbie would get frustrated.

I figure that if I don't feel like answering basic questions, then I don't respond to that post. And honestly, this forum would be pretty darn quiet without newbie questions.


----------



## Obsidian (Mar 12, 2015)

I have the same issues with the search function on most forums, the results I get are rarely what I need or wanted. I hate being told to use the search function and I won't stick around on a forum where that is the standard answer to basic questions.


----------



## TVivian (Mar 12, 2015)

dixiedragon said:


> I figure that if I don't feel like answering basic questions, then I don't respond to that post. And honestly, this forum would be pretty darn quiet without newbie questions.




I agree! Sometimes I wish there were more going on, more questions being asked, and more pictures being shared.


----------



## Dahila (Mar 12, 2015)

The search bar is not the best here, it is like most forums.  One word is usually the best.  When you click forum you have long list of subforum; then click it and find the thread which will answer the question .   The only blog that has an excellent search bar is swift monkey blog.
This thread is mine first in over a year, I am here, there was no need to post any, it is enough if you read the posts and make notes.  
Before I joined well I found this forum on December 2012 when I was off work) it took me a year to read it and be happy.  Pintrest is an evil, facebook is an evil; sending people and teaching bad habbits ....this forum teach the right knowledge.  
It just make me upset when someone makes a new thread with ie" white spots on soap" ; there are white spots on the right side of my soap.....that's it no pic no description nothing.  Then people post; what is your recepie, did you check soapcalc........and on and on.  I love this forum


----------



## FlybyStardancer (Mar 12, 2015)

I admit, generally when I want to search the forums I'll do a google search targeted at the site instead of using the site's search function. I can post a longer inquiry, and get better results. :shifty:


----------



## Seawolfe (Mar 12, 2015)

On almost every forum I've ever used, I use the advanced function and set it to search titles. Works for me.


----------



## dixiedragon (Mar 12, 2015)

TVivian said:


> I agree! Sometimes I wish there were more going on, more questions being asked, and more pictures being shared.


 
Just started a thread with lots of pics! "Mica line success"


----------



## lenarenee (Mar 12, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> While that would be great, the problem is the impact that has in the meantime. Imagine if you wanted to sell but everyone had already tried a bar of soap from someone who was not selling good soap - no one would want to by your product because every product they tried before turned out to be either rubbish or caused them injury.
> 
> .


 
What is the impact? The real impact, not the imagined. 

 Handmade soap
is usually a luxury item for the average American budget (can't speak for outside my country). It's usually purchased at farmer's markets and speciality shops and the kind of people who purchase it have the money and the motivation that isn't stopped by a couple bars of bad homemade soap.  They're savvy shoppers; very aware of the large and varied handmade soap community. Most will buy again. Some won't. 

There are thousands and thousands of brands of "stuff" in our grocery stores. When we buy a can of Pringles chips and don't like it; we move on to another brand. It's the American way. 

Hopefully EG, your diligent efforts (and those of others) will be heeded when you try to educate new people. There will unfortunately always be those who won't listen, or need to experience defeat in order to learn.

Considering how the handmade soap market has bloomed over the past 20 - 30 years....the results of the "bad" soap makers aren't stopping it!


----------



## lenarenee (Mar 12, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> I have the same issues with the search function on most forums, the results I get are rarely what I need or wanted. I hate being told to use the search function and I won't stick around on a forum where that is the standard answer to basic questions.


 
Me too. It's often true that a successful search on a forum requires that you already have some modicum of knowledge before you can ask the right question, interpret responses correctly....or avoid copious hours of reading hundreds of pages.  (Except for this forum... because I read it for fun during my free time when I have no paper soap books to read. I'm somewhere in the 500's of SMF!)


----------



## not_ally (Mar 12, 2015)

I am a compulsive researcher (boy is it fun), so although a newbie, will only ask a question if I have searched and re-searched.  Even if I don't get the answer I am looking for, I get others, plus leads on other useful questions, searching is a newbie's best friend.

So two comments, based on that:  (1) people who blithely request folks to share the best recipe ever  for "x" (or whatever equivalent of that) so they can get a batch ready for the local farmer's market are really annoying, mostly because they have not thought about/do not understand what they are asking to people who sell product.  I just ignore them (not that I have the answer, but it is better to not click on the post, best not to encourage them at all.)  If you ignore them, I think they will go away.

(2)  Some people really are trying to learn and for whatever reason are not researchers.  Maybe they are not internet mavens.  Maybe they are not academic pinhead types like me.  Maybe they are moms with a bunch of kids at home and have 30 secs before making up a bottle.  Maybe they are on limited internet plans.  I don't know, but I feel if a question s well-intentioned (however ill-researched), it is not such a bad thing.  I would just hope they say please and thank you, though, it is remarkable to me how many people fail to do that.

Edited to add:  the search function is not good here, or on other boards.  That is frustrating.

Also, it would help if people's re: lines were descriptive.  Just typing "HELP ME" is not a good way to get people to click on your link.

I think I am going to change my sign on to "Soap Curmudgeon."  I might be a bit cranky today, sorry if offensive


----------



## navigator9 (Mar 13, 2015)

mrsbrightside said:


> I really like the "is my cat a super genius..." Hahaha I bet that one isn't very useful.



Heyyyy....that was my post, and it was in the general chat forum, not about soap, and I think it was pretty helpful for people who think their cats are smarter than anyone elses!  LOL

OK, if we're getting things off our chest, let me just vent and then shut up. I don't even mind the repetitive questions, but there is one thing that does get under my skin. When did it become the end all and be all to make rainbow colored, layered, swirled, glittered, etc. soap? I think all of us can appreciate when someone goes through a lot of trouble to make a beautiful bar of soap. But when someone just starting out, is hell bent on making fancy soap before they can make good soap.......that bugs me. What difference does it make how pretty the soap is if it's crappy soap? I always stress the basics with newbies, and I'm sure they're all tired of hearing it over and over again, but the basics really do matter. Really working on your own recipe teaches you many valuable lessons. Just making a recipe over and over and varying the ingredients slightly to see how it affects the outcome is what makes you a soapmaker. Anyone can find a recipe on the internet, and copy it, and make soap, but developing your own formula, something unique, a soap that no one else has but you..... is what makes you a soapmaker, IMHO. And "plain" handmade soap is not PLAIN, it's amazing, _*just freaking amazing*_!!!!!!! 

OK, I feel better now, I'll shut up.


----------



## Susie (Mar 13, 2015)

lenarenee said:


> What is the impact? The real impact, not the imagined.
> 
> Handmade soap
> is usually a luxury item for the average American budget (can't speak for outside my country). It's usually purchased at farmer's markets and speciality shops and the kind of people who purchase it have the money and the motivation that isn't stopped by a couple bars of bad homemade soap.  They're savvy shoppers; very aware of the large and varied handmade soap community. Most will buy again. Some won't.



While I can't speak to anyone else's experience, I can certainly speak to mine.  I do not sell my soap.  I have never tried to sell my soap.  My area's farmer's markets and craft shows are saturated with bar soap makers.  I am smart enough not to try to turn a profit by competing with them.  

However, I have extended family that I make soap for.  And ones I have tried to give my soap to, to help them with eczema and other skin issues.  They won't even try it.  Why?  Because they paid, "too much money to get soap that was terrible and melted too fast."  Which, I can only guess that it was not cured long enough, and possibly had too much CO.  

So, you see, people who sell soap who don't have their recipe and process down pat DO hurt all of us.  Even if we don't sell.


----------



## pamielynn (Mar 13, 2015)

lenarenee said:


> What is the impact? The real impact, not the imagined.
> 
> Handmade soap
> is usually a luxury item for the average American budget (can't speak for outside my country). It's usually purchased at farmer's markets and speciality shops and the kind of people who purchase it have the money and the motivation that isn't stopped by a couple bars of bad homemade soap.  They're savvy shoppers; very aware of the large and varied handmade soap community. Most will buy again. Some won't.
> ...



It does have an impact though. I sell in person in a relatively small circle and have bumped up across many people who will say to me "I don't like handmade soap; it makes my skin feel dry". I've spent a lot of time, breath and free samples gaining customers who've had a bad experience with handmade soap in the past. And, really, just because there are many, many people IN the market, doesn't mean they're all making good soap.


----------



## navigator9 (Mar 13, 2015)

pamielynn said:


> It does have an impact though. I sell in person in a relatively small circle and have bumped up across many people who will say to me "I don't like handmade soap; it makes my skin feel dry". I've spent a lot of time, breath and free samples gaining customers who've had a bad experience with handmade soap in the past. And, really, just because there are many, many people IN the market, doesn't mean they're all making good soap.



Another reason to stress the need to learn to make GOOD soap,  before worrying about making PRETTY soap!


----------



## dixiedragon (Mar 13, 2015)

navigator9 said:


> Heyyyy....that was my post, and it was in the general chat forum, not about soap, and I think it was pretty helpful for people who think their cats are smarter than anyone elses! LOL
> 
> When did it become the end all and be all to make rainbow colored, layered, swirled, glittered, etc. soap? I think all of us can appreciate when someone goes through a lot of trouble to make a beautiful bar of soap. But when someone just starting out, is hell bent on making fancy soap before they can make good soap.......that bugs me.
> OK, I feel better now, I'll shut up.


 
The cat thread was helpful, just not if you were searching for while a "dark spot" appeared on your soap. 8)

Books, the internet, etc can only appeal to our sense of sight and our imagination. And I think that people don't know how good soap can be until they try good soap. I have had SO MANY people come up to me raving about how good my soap is. But they buy it the first time b/c it's pretty and/or it smells good.


----------



## navigator9 (Mar 13, 2015)

dixiedragon said:


> The cat thread was helpful, just not if you were searching for while a "dark spot" appeared on your soap. 8)
> 
> Books, the internet, etc can only appeal to our sense of sight and our imagination. And I think that people don't know how good soap can be until they try good soap. I have had SO MANY people come up to me raving about how good my soap is. But they buy it the first time b/c it's pretty and/or it smells good.



True, but they won't be repeat customers if the soap isn't good. The book I always recommend for beginners is Anne Watson's Smart Soapmaking. It's doesn't have pictures, just drawings, and she doesn't teach about swirls, layers, etc. , just good basic soapmaking technique. I have no problem with pretty soaps, as long as they're *good* soap. That has to be a priority. If not, all soapmakers end up with a bad name.


----------



## dixiedragon (Mar 13, 2015)

navigator9 said:


> True, but they won't be repeat customers if the soap isn't good. The book I always recommend for beginners is Anne Watson's Smart Soapmaking. It's doesn't have pictures, just drawings, and she doesn't teach about swirls, layers, etc. , just good basic soapmaking technique. I have no problem with pretty soaps, as long as they're *good* soap. That has to be a priority. If not, all soapmakers end up with a bad name.


 
But if the soap doesn't "grab" their attention - either by looks or scent - then they probably won't be first-time customers. 

Everybody who has purchased my soap (I am a hobbiest, not a serious seller, but I make soaps to sell for charity) has bought it b/c of scent or looks. Most of them had never tried soap they didn't buy at the grocery store or B&BW before.


----------



## Dahila (Mar 13, 2015)

You start with people network and plain soaps nicely packed sells good.  I rather get mild,  nice soap than fancy one which could irritate my skin with powdered colors.  I think most people will look how is pack and the nice smell.  
Fancy soaps are kind of difficult to use in shower with that uneven top.  I got few and I was using it, for some time.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 13, 2015)

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that people shouldn't use swirls and so on, but that the primary thing to get sorted first is a good soap making technique and recipe - where many new soapers fall down is wanted to make a superswirly soap that smells like a rose, using 10 oils with 5 of them being less than 5% - then they wonder why it doesn't work out as they planned.


----------



## Dahila (Mar 13, 2015)

I agree ^^^ wholeheartedly:mrgreen:


----------



## kchaystack (Mar 13, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I don't think that anyone is suggesting that people shouldn't use swirls and so on, but that the primary thing to get sorted first is a good soap making technique and recipe - where many new soapers fall down is wanted to make a superswirly soap that smells like a rose, using 10 oils with 5 of them being less than 5% - then they wonder why it doesn't work out as they planned.



I am an avid youtube watcher for soaps. 

There is one seller on there who does a ton of videos, and it is always nice to watch someone else's style.  

But her recipe...  wow.  I am not sure what her base oils are, but she uses goat milk, tussah silk, oatmeal, kaolin clay, and cream in EVERY batch.  I think that is a little overkill, but I have also been reading about soap since I got the idea to make my own in early December 2014.  I guess I was lucky this forum was an early discovery (I read for a month before joining).

But if her videos were what I found first, I would have been amazed about all the stuff in the soap, how easy she makes it look and might have jumped right into the deepest part upstream from the Niagra Falls.  LOL.

But still people do need to try and do a little research before joining a forum and posting a 1 sentence question.


----------



## Dorymae (Mar 13, 2015)

dixiedragon said:


> But if the soap doesn't "grab" their attention - either by looks or scent - then they probably won't be first-time customers.
> 
> Everybody who has purchased my soap (I am a hobbiest, not a serious seller, but I make soaps to sell for charity) has bought it b/c of scent or looks. Most of them had never tried soap they didn't buy at the grocery store or B&BW before.



This is true, but this is why you learn to make good soap first - so when they buy for your scent they will come back for the soap!  If you have a great scent and a drying soap no one will come back.  Learn to make the soap first - then you can mess with fragrance and color. Added benefit : when that fragrance you wanted rices your soap batter, you won't wonder if anything is wrong with your recipe, or your lye. etc.  You will realize that it is the fragrance since your recipe is already perfected and you can reproduce the results of a good plain (unscented, uncolored ) soap.


----------



## navigator9 (Mar 13, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I don't think that anyone is suggesting that people shouldn't use swirls and so on, but that the primary thing to get sorted first is a good soap making technique and recipe - where many new soapers fall down is wanted to make a superswirly soap that smells like a rose, using 10 oils with 5 of them being less than 5% - then they wonder why it doesn't work out as they planned.



Exactly! If it's not good soap first, then* it doesn't matter how pretty it is! *I don't think any of us go through the trouble of making soap just to look at it. If it's really pretty, we may let it sit in our soap dish for a while to admire it, but at some point, it's going to be used. And if it doesn't make your skin feel wonderful, who cares how pretty it was. By all means, make pretty soap, but just make sure it's really good, pretty soap.


----------



## Cactuslily (Mar 13, 2015)

I am a new soaper. I read more books and watched so many videos, my eyes crossed. Aside from being a new soaper, I'm also new to computers. My children grew up with them, but I had a thing for books. I know many of my questions were silly to others, but I always subscribe to there's no such thing as a silly question. I've used the search bar endlessly, but many threads don't address my particular question.   I struggled for months trying to get a picture uploaded' and finally  had success. In fact, most of my successes are because of the help and patience of the people on this forum. Thank you to everyone here who has been part of my learning curve. I only hope to pass it along some day. As to selling. I personally would feel terrible if my soaped harmed anyone. I don't want anyone but me trying my soap ( not even my family ) until I have used it and deemed it safe. Most people don't realize the intricacies of CP soapmaking. We can educate them and hope they do the right thing. Maybe a stickie on the topic that can be referred to? Suggest MP for selling until their CP skills are consistently safe over time.  Thanks again for helping this newbie out!


----------



## dixiedragon (Mar 13, 2015)

I totally agree that learning how to make good soap is important. I'm just saying it doesn't bother me when people want to jump in to fancy stuff b/c it looks so pretty. It's just human nature. I think it's very common for people to discover something that they really like and jump in with both feet. Learning the basics sounds boring. So then what happens is the first attempt is a flop, THEN they go back and learn the basics.


----------



## hmlove1218 (Mar 13, 2015)

I've tried to avoid this for a long, long time, but I have a confession.  I will never be comfortable telling someone not to sell because they don't have enough experience because that would make me a hypocrite..  I was one of them, as some of you probably know.  I honestly can't say I'm proud of it and I really wish I'd waited longer than I did before I started selling my CP/HP soaps.  I was one of those looking to "get rich quick," but I didn't want to get rich.  Money was tight, I couldn't find a job, I had two kids.. I felt helpless and I wanted to do something to help support my family.

I opened an Etsy shop before I even joined this forum, but luckily it was only for melt and pour.  I read all the responses from members here to not sell your first soaps, but I didn't figure that applied to me with melt and pour.  I didn't figure I could really cause any problems since I wasn't making anything, just adding fragrance and color.  I sold only melt and pour for several months.  During this time, I had become intrigued with making my own soap.  All the beautiful pictures of CP members posted had me wanting to give it a try.

So I researched.  I spent hours and hours reading through the forum.  I spent days playing with SoapCalc and looking at different oils.  I searched everything I could think of on Google.  I read every single article on the first 10 pages.  I took everything I found and ran it through my BS detector and compared what was left to what I found on the forum.  I asked questions here and I learned from the answers I received.

I am proud to say, however, that I've never made someone else's recipe.  I'd look at the recipes here and on the internet for ideas, then I'd tweak them to suit my needs and what I had on hand.  I have never asked for recipes, only advice on something I came up with.  I wanted my recipes to be mine.

I understand newbie reactions to being told not to sell or being talked about on the forum.  I have been the subject of several conversations.  Most have not been very nice.  At first, I was royally p*ssed that members were talking about me behind my back.  There have been many times that I've typed up a response and walked away for a few hours to clear my thoughts.  When I came back to the thread, I realized that I should let it go because I opened myself up to these kinds of posts when I started selling so early - less than 6 months after making my first CP/HP batches.  Sometime you just have to tuck your tail, take your punishment, and learn from it.  I've been run off from the forum a couple of times, but I've always come back because there is a wealth of knowledge here if you know how to look for it and are willing to learn.  The people here are amazing.

With all that being said, I _do not_ condone selling early.  As I said, I wish I had waited.  The one year rule is a good guide line and I think most new soap makers should follow it.  Some may be ready to sell earlier, some may not be.  I learned from my mistakes and maybe someone reading this will too.


----------



## Cactuslily (Mar 13, 2015)

Hmlove1218...you are a perfect example for everyone to remember never to judge. People looking to earn money to support themselves honestly, don't mean anyone harm. I agree, waiting to sell CP is prudent, and benefits the maker and the community as a whole. That being said, all anyone can do is make recommendations in a non judgmental way, and educate people along the way. That includes often taking a breath and answering what might be a silly or basic question.


----------



## IrishLass (Mar 13, 2015)

Good thread with many good points made by all! 

Since many brought up the subject of our search feature, I just wanted to let y'all know there are 3 different ways to search on the forum, in case some of you didn't know about all 3 of them:

1) The 'Search This Forum' icon on the upper right on the page, which is pretty basic and the least useful of the three. 

2) The "Advanced Search' icon that appears in the bottom of the dropdown box when you click on the 'Search This Forum' icon. This allows one to narrow down their search parameters better than feature #1. 

3) The 'SiteComber site that's posted in the forum Sticky entitled, 'How To Search On SoapMakingForum Like A Pro': http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34889, which works wonderfully! 


Also, since this was brought up several times- here is our long-cherished Stickie that helps hobby soap-makers to be able to better discern whether or not they are ready to sell yet: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=16002

and also this excellent sticky that's along the same lines: 
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=33144


And here's a link to our Acronym and Definitions thread that will help to answer many basic questions: 
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=51841 By the way, this particular Stickie is a continual work in progress. If any of y'all think that something should be included, please let one of us mods or admins know via PM. 

I just want to say that I love this forum. I think we have a great group of very intelligent lovers of the craft here who 8 times out of 10 go out of their way to be helpful and kind to all (I would say 9 or 10 times out of 10, but none of us is perfect, and we all have our bad days after all :wink. But you all need to take a bow.... I'm a member of a goodly handful of different forums, and I can only name 2 that are so helpful in such a kind way, and this is one of them. 

Speaking only for myself, I love to help out those who are new to the craft and don't mind answering questions. Like Susie, I'm so tickled when I've been able to truly help someone out. 

Questions are good and I feel no one should _ever_ be afraid of asking them. The only times I get frustrated with questions are when I feel like I'm being 'used' or 'milked' for info, if you know what I mean. For example, such as when a self-described newcomer to the craft with admittedly only a batch or two of experience under their belt starts selling those first batches soap online against all of everyone's collective advice to take things slow, and then they come back onto the forum to ask very basic questions about things which should have already become common knowlege/second-nature long before even attempting to sell. Thankfully, though, those times are rare, but it does happen (more so, the past few months, it seems), and like several others have mentioned, to answer any further questions from them makes me feel like I'm enabling what I think is a very bad decision on their part that may adversely affect the homemade soap community as a whole, so I'll usually refrain from answering them further  (unless, as the good Gent pointed out, that they are about to do something very dangerous).


IrishLass


----------



## not_ally (Mar 14, 2015)

Irishlass, thank you for the searching tips.  Bookmarking, I didn't think about the options beyond the first.


----------



## lillybella (Mar 14, 2015)

Is there a way to search the whole Forum or just a thread at a time?


----------



## cmzaha (Mar 14, 2015)

hmlove1218 said:


> I've tried to avoid this for a long, long time, but I have a confession.  I will never be comfortable telling someone not to sell because they don't have enough experience because that would make me a hypocrite..  I was one of them, as some of you probably know.  I honestly can't say I'm proud of it and I really wish I'd waited longer than I did before I started selling my CP/HP soaps.  I was one of those looking to "get rich quick," but I didn't want to get rich.  Money was tight, I couldn't find a job, I had two kids.. I felt helpless and I wanted to do something to help support my family.
> 
> I opened an Etsy shop before I even joined this forum, but luckily it was only for melt and pour.  I read all the responses from members here to not sell your first soaps, but I didn't figure that applied to me with melt and pour.  I didn't figure I could really cause any problems since I wasn't making anything, just adding fragrance and color.  I sold only melt and pour for several months.  During this time, I had become intrigued with making my own soap.  All the beautiful pictures of CP members posted had me wanting to give it a try.
> 
> ...



Very well said. I also sold soaps within 6 months, and was never a member of a forum when I started. I also started because income was imperative at the time. Did not get rich but it certainly helped. I ran a lot of batches in the 6 months until I was reasonably happy with them and went to market a bit to early. I actually still have some of my first customers. Almost 6 yrs later I can see where my soaps could have been improved and have been improved but I actually still have and use a couple of the recipes I came up with, all on my own with no help. I had a tutorial from B&B, learned to use soap calc and started making soap. My first batch was 100% lard and I still have one bar left. I am not an advocate of early selling and have taken note to comments that my soap has gone from being great soap to awesome, so I assume over the years I have learned something. In my case it was an outlet to save my sanity, after losing our company and a large portion of retirement, and helping with a little added income. I also still sell in the same market as my first day of selling and have outlasted many many soapmakers. We have a newbie that makes beautiful colored soaps but even mild facial bars are the same recipe. A fantastic 2 oil soap, Olive and Coconut. Yep, I know some do like that combination, but a luxury moisturizing facial bar....not in my book of recipes.


----------



## PuddinAndPeanuts (Apr 4, 2015)

I get asking questions without looking extensively for your own answers first- I'm not sure I've gotten good results from search here yet!  It's gotten to the point that if I need help figuring something out, and I can not find the answer after searching SwiftCraftMonkey, I ask immediately here.  I know searching here will yield no results, and I don't trust most other resources.  

You have all been so unbelievably helpful- the group of people here have a generosity of spirit that is utterly heartwarming. 

As for people selling so soon?  I SO see both sides of that!  At the end of the day though, people selling too soon aren't likely to last long in the market- especially selling soap, IMO. The profit margins are just too narrow.  There's not much money do be made- especially if you can't buy supplies in large quantities.  I branched into making soap after starting with body butter.  I started my first loaf with the intent to sell (as soon as I got the recipes ironed out and time tested).  Nope!  I don't think so!  I've played around enough and researched enough to see there just is not enough $$ in soap to make it worth my time selling it.  Maybe if I had unlimited space to store curing soap....  Or maybe if I were more of a 'planner' and didn't need the ability to pull an old fashioned all nighter to prepare for a show... Maybe if it weren't so flippin' fragile where I envision an enormous amount of shrinkage carting it around show to show...  And the biggest one- maybe if I sold more retail and less wholesale.


----------



## Susie (Apr 4, 2015)

There are people that I respect highly that have successfully sold soap well before that one year mark.  However, those people have the right mindset to not accept the first successful recipe and do it over and over, but to continue to improve and refine their way through that learning curve.  My hat is off to them!  I could never do that.  I have had some real doozies well after when I thought I should know better.


----------



## LBussy (Apr 4, 2015)

I'm at just over a year now of making soaps, and little under a year on this forum.  I used the very first batch of soap I made for shaving yesterday.  Aside from being veg only (sorry but shaving soap needs tallow!) it's still better than any of the commercial soaps available in the US and not far behind some older commercial  European veg soaps.  Lucky?  Undoubtedly there is some luck there. I am an avid researcher however and I knew a good amount of what and why before I started.  It was a calculated stab in the dark.

Not bragging, just pointing out that a new person can absolutely make good, even marketable soap their first time.  

Since then I learned a lot more.  There's "book smarts" and there's wisdom, and wisdom is the experience to apply what you learned.   I came here as a shaver and I didn't even know the vernacular.  Until you know what you are looking for at least a little bit it is often hard to formulate a question, let alone find the answer to the question someone else asked and was answered.  It's rather like expecting to hit the target the first time playing pin the tail on the donkey.  But, y'all persevered and I kept at it.  Nearly everyone in this thread has helped me in some way directly or indirectly.  For that you have my heartfelt thanks.  So, a person can have researched without seeming to "know" anything.  

I guess I don't know what threads you all are talking about. I don't read everything.  If there are people here looking only to commercialize YOUR time, then they need to be taken out back and flogged.  I look at this place not only as a place to learn but a place to talk.  If a person is not willing to invest here emotionally, to make some "friends", then it's going to be a tough go.  If however they come here with an emotional investment in grandma's recipe for face soap made with bacon drippings and measured with a pyrex measuring cup, that does not mean they wont be the next person who really gives back.

So, take that for what it's worth, understanding I don't know exactly who you may be referring to.


----------



## snappyllama (Apr 4, 2015)

I totally agree with the folks on this forum... y'all have taught me so much, with such generosity of spirit. I really don't get the offense that some folks immediately take when they ask for advice.  Geez people, you asked a question, someone took *their* time to share *their* knowledge and possibly give additional advice. Show some gratitude or at least avoid being a drama-llama! 

I regularly visit other soaping and gamer forums.  This one has the most welcoming, supportive group of folks I've seen on the web. I'm tempted to send the drama-llamas over to the gamer forums. They would probably better enjoy the mass umbrage they find there - since that's just what they are looking for.

Sorry for the negativity... I normally try to avoid it but really wanted to vent!

<grumble> people have no manners </grumble>


----------



## not_ally (Apr 4, 2015)

I also have never been met here with anything other than kindness and supportive advice.  I think where newbies go wrong is not taking the time to explore the board, do research before they ask question, if they can, and figure out who the really helpful posters are.  Ie; don't tell someone who knows what they are talking about and is trying to help you make your soap better that they are "snarky."  That is not a good way to proceed if you want to be a member of a community.


----------



## Seawolfe (Apr 4, 2015)

LBussy said:


> If there are people here looking only to commercialize YOUR time, then they need to be taken out back and flogged.  I look at this place not only as a place to learn but a place to talk.  If a person is not willing to invest here emotionally, to make some "friends", then it's going to be a tough go.  If however they come here with an emotional investment in grandma's recipe for face soap made with bacon drippings and measured with a pyrex measuring cup, that does not mean they wont be the next person who really gives back.


This! So much this!


----------



## not_ally (Apr 4, 2015)

Ok, am responding to my own post, definite saddo thing to do.  But I was thinking about it, and the fact is that this *is* a community, if you stick around and post for long enough.  After reading thousands of posts, I feel like I sort of know many of the posters here.  I know their styles, some are more politic than others, but input from the old-timers is always good, no matter how it is delivered (I use the term "old-timers" advisedly, at 52 I am probably older than many/most of you.)  

Don't know what to say about the selling thing, I think it is a terrible idea unless you have been doing it for a year.  The soaps change so much, they have their own minds about how they want to end up.  I am 4 months out and tweaking all the time, carefully and one ingredient at a time.  

I don't think that making soaps you are ultimately happy with can happen fast (or at least that you really know that) although it is faster if you get good advice.  Although I get how much pressure there may be on someone who has discovered that they love soapmaking, thinks they have a no-fail first time out and needs to pay childcare expenses or a mortgage.  I guess I would say, be truly mindful.


----------



## LBussy (Apr 4, 2015)

not_ally said:


> (I use the term "old-timers" advisedly, at 52 I am probably older than many/most of you.)


I turn 50 this year so I'm not far up the hill from you.  :wave:


----------



## not_ally (Apr 4, 2015)

Dang, it's a steep hill in some ways, Lee.   I still look and (usually) feel pretty young, but the number is weird to deal with.

Edited to add:  Apropos of nothing soap related, but connected to feeling old.  I have  been watching back episodes of "Parenthood" on Netflix, and this actor,  Josh Stamberg, has popped up, he seems to show up constantly on TV  these days as the hunky, 40-something romantic interest.  

I typed up  that guy's college applications because his mom was my boss when I was in my  early/mid 20's, I really resented having to do it (*so* not work  related, and it was in a place where people did not usually pull rank  like that.)  Every time I see him I think of him standing outside my  cube as a sort of hulking, silent, football playerish high school kid.  It really upsets the believability factor for me *and* makes me feel old.  Weird, the things that do that.


----------



## reinbeau (Apr 4, 2015)

I'll be 59 in a week and a half.  I am kinda in awe of that every time I really look at it.  59  Where the hell did all that time go?  

As for community yes, this is a wonderful soaping community.  I love forums, and for soaps, this is the best.


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 4, 2015)

Yeah, I'll be 59 this month too. We can commiserate, Ann -- I don't know where time went either.


----------



## not_ally (Apr 4, 2015)

I know, it is so corny, you used to hear "old" people say "blink and it is gone".  And then it happens to you!  Although I am kind of glad I don't have to go through my 20's and part of the 30's again.


----------



## snappyllama (Apr 4, 2015)

I'd like my 18 year old body back, but I'd like to keep my brain as-of five years ago (before I started forgetting where I parked my car).  Now if only I could remember where I left that genie lamp...


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 5, 2015)

Hitting 35 this year and wouldn't swap mind or body for my younger self - healthier and happier than I have ever been. 

But I guess that makes me a whipper-snapper here


----------



## Dahila (Apr 5, 2015)

I am 60 and probably the oldest one It is nice to know that the most valuable posters are in my age range.  Now I feel at home. I have theory that for older people earth moves faster:sad:  Year is like 15 minutes..........


----------



## Susie (Apr 5, 2015)

Well, guys...I am 52, and was happily preparing "someday" to be a grandmother.  I felt old, I thought old.  It really is sad when you get old in your brain.  However, don't give up hope.  I have been divorced since 1998, and happily so, swore off of men LONG ago.  

However, last weekend I got the shock of my life when my very dear friend of 3 + years told me that he thought we were more than friends.  My mind was absolutely blown.  Suddenly the floodgates were open.  Suddenly everything I thought I never needed or wanted in my life was possible again.  I am now happily engaged to my best friend, and trying to get our lives in order to marry and me to move to Texas.   Since this has been less than a week, we have no dates set, but it will happen, and I no longer feel old in the least.


----------



## LBussy (Apr 5, 2015)

Congratulations Susie!


----------



## cmzaha (Apr 5, 2015)

Dahila said:


> I am 60 and probably the oldest one It is nice to know that the most valuable posters are in my age range. Now I feel at home. I have theory that for older people earth moves faster:sad: Year is like 15 minutes..........


Nope Gottcha beat, 66 here 




Susie said:


> Well, guys...I am 52, and was happily preparing "someday" to be a grandmother. I felt old, I thought old. It really is sad when you get old in your brain. However, don't give up hope. I have been divorced since 1998, and happily so, swore off of men LONG ago.
> 
> However, last weekend I got the shock of my life when my very dear friend of 3 + years told me that he thought we were more than friends. My mind was absolutely blown. Suddenly the floodgates were open. Suddenly everything I thought I never needed or wanted in my life was possible again. I am now happily engaged to my best friend, and trying to get our lives in order to marry and me to move to Texas. Since this has been less than a week, we have no dates set, but it will happen, and I no longer feel old in the least.


Congratulations Susie, life can definetly take many turns. I wish you all the best and your are still a youngster!!


----------



## DeeAnna (Apr 5, 2015)

Oh, THAT's what you meant when you said in another post that your life was all topsy-turvy, but in a good way. BEST WISHES to you both!!!!


----------



## Seawolfe (Apr 5, 2015)

Oh my gosh Susie thats such fun news!! I wish ALL the best for you two 

Back to the original tangent - I turn 50 this month. I was so sure I would be more mature by now...


----------



## snappyllama (Apr 5, 2015)

Congratulations Susie!


----------



## Cindy2428 (Apr 5, 2015)

Congrats Susie! How wonderful to be this Blessed with re-connecting with your best friend. At 53 this is a wonderful time of life; just wish the body could keep up.


----------



## Dahila (Apr 5, 2015)

Congrats Susie; may sun always shine on you, and your days shall be filled by happiness.  

When you love someone all your saved up wishes start coming out


----------



## jules92207 (Apr 5, 2015)

Well I am a young one at 37, but I am also a grandma thanks to step kids. 

And congratulations Susie! What a beautiful chaos to be in!


----------



## lpstephy85 (Apr 5, 2015)

Congrats, Susie! Love always finds its way, especially when you're not looking for it.


----------



## reinbeau (Apr 5, 2015)

Awesome,  Susie! Never give up ; good for you


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 5, 2015)

SUSIE!  That is amazing news.  I am sat here with a big grin on my face.  That is such a romantic story


----------



## not_ally (Apr 5, 2015)

Oh Susie, I am thrilled for you.  Heartfelt gladness.  That is such a wonderful story.  Being in love with your best friend, that is as good as it gets.  Your post kind of made my day, thank you for sharing this news with us.

Edited to add:  actually, my best friends are all gay guys, so I do hope it gets a bit better than that for me


----------



## Susie (Apr 6, 2015)

Thank you all so very, very much!


----------

