# What is the zap test?



## wbocrafter (Sep 6, 2016)

I have been reading some of the other posts & I see where the question comes up if the soap has passed the zap test.  As a newbie I'm not familiar with that terminology.  Thanks for any info you can provide.


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## dibbles (Sep 6, 2016)

The zap test is used to check for excess lye in your soap. There is a sticky at the beginning of this forum. 

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30690


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## Susie (Sep 6, 2016)

The zap test is where you rub a moistened finger across the soap then touch it to your tongue.  If you get a zap like you touched your tongue to both prongs of a 9V battery, then the soap is lye heavy.  If you don't, you touch your tongue directly to the soap to check.  If no zap, then the soap is safe to use.


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## earlene (Sep 6, 2016)

See here for detailed instructions.

The simple version: Basically you are testing for excess lye by licking the soap*.  If it zaps you, it's lye heavy.  If it just tastes like soap, it's safe.

*Actually you only need to touch the suds to your tongue after making a nice lather on your gloved hands.

ETA:  It looks like we all cross-posted.  

Edited to remove family photo - e


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## penelopejane (Sep 6, 2016)

Or, if you are patient, you can wait 6 weeks and never ever have to do this!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 6, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Or, if you are patient, you can wait 6 weeks and never ever have to do this!





Not actually "never ever" - if someone makes a soapy error and/or has some odd looking things going on in a soap, waiting and hoping might not work at all. 

Op, the method Susie suggested is totally safe and is not something to be avoided for safety reasons. Any other reasons for avoiding it when it is necessary to test (such as it being "icky") is just silliness. Soap gets on to all sorts of mucus membranes all the time, so a little bit in the mouth is not as bad as some people suggest it to be.


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## Susie (Sep 6, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Or, if you are patient, you can wait 6 weeks and never ever have to do this!



LOL, good try!  

Soaps need to be zap tested for all kinds of different reasons.  Basic routine zap testing can be avoided if NOTHING else goes wrong in the process.  I do mean absolutely NOTHING.

If something, anything, goes wrong, zap testing is where I start.


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## SunWolf (Sep 6, 2016)

How will you know if you made a mistake without zap testing every batch?  Bad measurements of your lye may show no other symptoms...you would never know if you didn't test.


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## penelopejane (Sep 7, 2016)

Susie said:


> LOL, good try!
> 
> Soaps need to be zap tested for all kinds of different reasons.  Basic routine zap testing can be avoided if NOTHING else goes wrong in the process.  I do mean absolutely NOTHING.
> 
> If something, anything, goes wrong, zap testing is where I start.



So far, touch wood, I've been able to work out what went wrong without zapping myself.  

Hopefully, if I continue to be vigilant with measurements I will avoid this horrible, scary test.  It is, in fact, what has prevented me making liquid soap so far!  I know, I am a fraidy cat!  roblem:


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## penelopejane (Sep 7, 2016)

SunWolf said:


> How will you know if you made a mistake without zap testing every batch?  Bad measurements of your lye may show no other symptoms...you would never know if you didn't test.



I can see if there are spots in my soap or if it's soft.  If it looks good and it feels good, I assume it is good. I am also obsessively vigilant about my lye measurements. :roll:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 7, 2016)

It is NOT a horrible test. Whether or not it is scary depends on whether or not you are prepared to actually look at it objectively. 

If I was to say that some people choose to let themselves be stabbed by a stranger who then drains off vital life-blood, it sounds like a very stupid thing to do. But giving blood is actually not as horrible or scary as I made it sound. 

Zap testing, when properly done, is totally safe. 

I do not say that it isn't scary, because that is subjective. On the same side of the coin, you also can't say that it IS a scary test just because it's scary for YOU. You can say that you find it scary.

Please do not discourage people from using a perfectly safe and useful tool available to soapers just because you have the wrong view of it.


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## Susie (Sep 7, 2016)

We've had this discussion before.  

I'm going to have to second Craig's stance on it, though.  It is one thing for someone to privately not perform the most basic, simple, important test on their own soap, in the privacy of their own home, and affecting only that person's loved ones' skin.  It is another thing entirely for that person to publicly encourage other people to avoid using the single most important test on their soap that is going to affect their loved ones' safety.  

If there were some virus going around that you needed to get tested for to protect your family, you would have that test done, right?  Even though it would cost you a minute of discomfort while they drew the blood, right?

Folks, do the zap test on your soap.  I personally test every batch.  My family's skin is important enough to me for me to risk one brief moment of mild discomfort.  Is yours?


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## penelopejane (Sep 7, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It is NOT a horrible test. Whether or not it is scary depends on whether or not you are prepared to actually look at it objectively.
> 
> If I was to say that some people choose to let themselves be stabbed by a stranger who then drains off vital life-blood, it sounds like a very stupid thing to do. But giving blood is actually not as horrible or scary as I made it sound.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I was joking and it didn't come across well.  
I definitely wasn't saying other people shouldn't do the zap test.  
I just don't want to do it and as I don't sell that's ok.  It is scary for me. 
If I thought it was necessary for me to test a soap I would get my DH to do it. :mrgreen:


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## navigator9 (Sep 8, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> So far, touch wood, I've been able to work out what went wrong without zapping myself.
> 
> Hopefully, if I continue to be vigilant with measurements I will avoid this horrible, scary test.  It is, in fact, what has prevented me making liquid soap so far!  I know, I am a fraidy cat!  roblem:



penelopejane, it's only scary the first time. Then you say to yourself..."That's it?  I got myself all worked up about THAT?" Just like many of the things we fear in life.


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## IrishLass (Sep 8, 2016)

navigator9 said:


> penelopejane, it's only scary the first time. Then you say to yourself..."That's it? I got myself all worked up about THAT?" Just like many of the things we fear in life.


 
Ditto that 100%. On a scale of 1 to 10 where jalapeno peppers rate at 10, zap that is felt _when one has done the test correctly_ rates about 1 or 2 at the most, at least for someone like myself who loves hot/spicy food, especially jalapenos on pizza- yum! For me, zap would be like someone subbing out the jalapenos on my pizza with poblano peppers, which are about 5 to 8 times milder. My reaction would be, :What!?? That's it? Where's the heat?!" lol

IrishLass


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## Arimara (Sep 11, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Or, if you are patient, you can wait 6 weeks and never ever have to do this!



Nice try but even after 6 weeks, I zap test. As for liquid soap, I'm only squeemish about it for my laundry soap since I use 100% coconut oil with a 0% superfat. That stuff stings like a beast when it doesn't zap (my tongue is sensitive with this soap). Other batches of liquid soap have been far better experiences, quite pleasant as far as zap tests go.

My main question is this: Are you really going to let a simple little test of great importance keep you from potentially making the next best soap since the Aleppo soap but in liquid form? Haven't you been a little curious about the dual lye castiles? They're nice and you can use them much sooner than a standard year. Have you been a little curious about the appeal of a liquid castile soap? I have and though I have EVOO, I'm still going to try it.


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## penelopejane (Sep 11, 2016)

Arimara said:


> Nice try but even after 6 weeks, I zap test. As for liquid soap, I'm only squeemish about it for my laundry soap since I use 100% coconut oil with a 0% superfat. That stuff stings like a beast when it doesn't zap (my tongue is sensitive with this soap). Other batches of liquid soap have been far better experiences, quite pleasant as far as zap tests go.
> 
> My main question is this: Are you really going to let a simple little test of great importance keep you from potentially making the next best soap since the Aleppo soap but in liquid form? Haven't you been a little curious about the dual lye castiles? They're nice and you can use them much sooner than a standard year. Have you been a little curious about the appeal of a liquid castile soap? I have and though I have EVOO, I'm still going to try it.



Yes I am but the only place that sells KOH close to me is a 2 and 1/2 hour drive one way and is only open monday - friday so I have been putting it off  until I can do two or more things at one time.


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## Arimara (Sep 11, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Yes I am but the only place that sells KOH close to me is a 2 and 1/2 hour drive one way and is only open monday - friday so I have been putting it off  until I can do two or more things at one time.



Procrastinator! Lol, but a 2.5 hour drive isn't much fun when it means 5 hours driving. You'd practically have to plan that and maybe make a mini trip of it so you have some rest.


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## earlene (Sep 11, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> Yes I am but the only place that sells KOH  close to me is a 2 and 1/2 hour drive one way and is only open monday -  friday so I have been putting it off  until I can do two or more things  at one time. :smile:





Arimara said:


> Procrastinator! Lol, but a 2.5 hour drive isn't much fun when it means 5 hours driving. You'd practically have to plan that and maybe make a mini trip of it so you have some rest.



Well not everyone loves a roadtrip as much as I do, but I say make it a day to enjoy and have some fun along the way.  A meal out.  A little sightseeing. Maybe a play or a movie after you do your shopping and before you drive back home again.  Then again, I might even do an over-nighter for the fun of it.  Anyway, I am sure you will get around to it eventually.  The KOH is worth the effort when it comes to the dual lye Castile soap!


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## penelopejane (Sep 11, 2016)

earlene said:


> Well not everyone loves a roadtrip as much as I do. Anyway, I am sure you will get around to it eventually.  The KOH is worth the effort when it comes to the dual lye Castile soap!



We do 45,000 km a year each in our cars! I go up there a lot but mostly on the weekends when the shop isn't  open. 

What do you find the dual lye brings to Castile? What percentages do you use?


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## DeeAnna (Sep 11, 2016)

I can't speak for Earlene, but I am trialing 5% KOH in some of my recipes. 

I find it really improves the lather of a high oleic soap -- the soap makes more lather more easily and the lather is more bubbly and fluffy rather than dense and lotiony. The added KOH also reduces the tendency for the soap to make that disagreeable oleic "slime". 

I think the KOH works about the same as making a bastile by adding coconut oil except you're not -- the soap is made only from a high oleic fat such as olive, HO sunflower, HO safflower, avocado, etc. See http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59747

I have also been using 5% KOH in a few batches of soap that contain half or more lard (high stearic-palmitic). There ~is~ a distinct change toward more bubbly, fluffy lather, but the shift is not as dramatic as the change with the high oleic soaps.


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## Susie (Sep 11, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> I have also been using 5% KOH in a few batches of soap that contain half or more lard (high stearic-palmitic). There ~is~ a distinct change toward more bubbly, fluffy lather, but the shift is not as dramatic as the change with the high oleic soaps.



ENABLER!!!  Now I just have to try this!

And my son said his 2 gallons of diluted liquid soap leaked all over the place, so I already have to make liquid soap.


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## Arimara (Sep 11, 2016)

earlene said:


> Well not everyone loves a roadtrip as much as I do, but I say make it a day to enjoy and have some fun along the way.  A meal out.  A little sightseeing. Maybe a play or a movie after you do your shopping and before you drive back home again.  Then again, I might even do an over-nighter for the fun of it.  Anyway, I am sure you will get around to it eventually.  The KOH is worth the effort when it comes to the dual lye Castile soap!



I actually love road trips myself but my driving skills are nigh nonexistant and I'm nervous in a car in general. I'm not fond of the dual lye castiles I made with the exception of the lye heavy one I made. I was surprised that it was safe to use after 3 months and it has a note to it that I'd love if it wasn't scented. I'd love to make a bastile this way but I need to work around the trace a little better.


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## earlene (Sep 13, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> We do 45,000 km a year each in our cars! I go up there a lot but mostly on the weekends when the shop isn't  open.
> 
> What do you find the dual lye brings to Castile? What percentages do you use?



I am sorry for the delayed response.  I just started looking at newer responses to recent threads that show up on the first page of each forum and saw your question.

So far I have not used the bars because they are young yet.  I made them the last week of June.  Here is my thread about making them, which I wanted to try after reading about it here on SMF and elsewhere.  (I can't find the elsewhere right now, and that is bugging me.  I thought I bookmarked it.)



DeeAnna said:


> I can't speak for Earlene, but I am trialing 5% KOH in some of my recipes.
> 
> I find it really improves the lather of a high oleic soap -- the soap makes more lather more easily and the lather is more bubbly and fluffy rather than dense and lotiony. The added KOH also reduces the tendency for the soap to make that disagreeable oleic "slime".
> 
> ...



This sounds interesting.  I am curious about the changes in bubbliness and lather in the lard soaps.  Are you still using EDTA in the lard soaps with the dual lye method?  And what lye concentration do you use when you test a new process like this?  Or does it matter?


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## DeeAnna (Sep 13, 2016)

Yes, I used EDTA. My water is softened with a whole house softener. The EDTA noticeably kicks in to reduce soap scum only when we run out of salt for the water softener, however. I use EDTA in my soaps for DOS prevention as much as soap scum control.

I don't think lye concentration makes a huge difference in the lather assuming the soap is reasonably well cured. Not nearly like the effect of the fat blend and cure time. 

In the recent past, people who have shared the use of NaOH and a bit of KOH for making regular bath soaps have been author Anne Watson in her book Castile Soapmaking and on her website, and Evik, the Curious Soapmaker, on her website. Another person who discussed this some years back is SMF member Sistrum.

Here's a blog post: https://soapinthecity2.wordpress.co...e-l-watsons-koh-modified-castile-soap-recipe/


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## earlene (Sep 13, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> Yes, I used EDTA. My water is softened with a whole house softener. The EDTA noticeably kicks in to reduce soap scum only when we run out of salt for the water softener, however. I use EDTA in my soaps for DOS prevention as much as soap scum control.
> 
> I don't think lye concentration makes a huge difference in the lather assuming the soap is reasonably well cured. Not nearly like the effect of the fat blend and cure time.
> 
> ...



Thank you, it was the Curious Soapmaker post I couldn't find again.  Now I have it.


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## aeiou_- (Sep 20, 2016)

I just dove into making soap about a month ago. My first batch is 12 days old and curing so far. My last batch is 3 days old. I've made 5 batches so far. I was a bit hesitant about zap testing my soap because I still haven't fully cured my first batch of soap yet.. 4 weeks and 2 days left! I'm going for a 6-week cure.  

Today I picked up a bar of both the first and most recent batch for the zap test. All I tasted was soap.. haha! I am happy, but can this ever mean that I did not use enough lye? Would this be physically noticeable?

Also, I would deeply appreciate input on when it is the appropriate time to zap test. I've read on different posts to zap test while the bar is still in the mold. Is the curing still considered part of the saponification process? Is saponification over after it stops zapping, or if it never does? Thanks for reading!


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## shunt2011 (Sep 20, 2016)

aeiou_- said:


> I just dove into making soap about a month ago. My first batch is 12 days old and curing so far. My last batch is 3 days old. I've made 5 batches so far. I was a bit hesitant about zap testing my soap because I still haven't fully cured my first batch of soap yet.. 4 weeks and 2 days left! I'm going for a 6-week cure.
> 
> Today I picked up a bar of both the first and most recent batch for the zap test. All I tasted was soap.. haha! I am happy, but can this ever mean that I did not use enough lye? Would this be physically noticeable?
> 
> Also, I would deeply appreciate input on when it is the appropriate time to zap test. I've read on different posts to zap test while the bar is still in the mold. Is the curing still considered part of the saponification process? Is saponification over after it stops zapping, or if it never does? Thanks for reading!


 
I personally zap test my soaps at about 3-4 days.  I just take an end piece and work up a bit of lather then touch it to my tongue.  That's for gelled soaps.  Ungelled soap I would wait a bit longer.  I'm sure others will pipe in when they test theirs.

As long as you are running your recipes through a lye calculator you will have enough lye in your soap.  Unless of course you don't measure correctly, then you may have too much or not enough to where it's really soft.


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## Susie (Sep 20, 2016)

I zap test my gelled soaps when I cut them, normally at 18-24 hours.  Ungelled soaps get to wait a week, as I got a zap off of one that was 72 hours old.  I do try my hardest to get gel, though.


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## IrishLass (Sep 20, 2016)

aeiou_- said:


> IToday I picked up a bar of both the first and most recent batch for the zap test. All I tasted was soap.. haha! I am happy, but can this ever mean that I did not use enough lye? Would this be physically noticeable?


 
Like Shari said- if you are using a lye calculator, it's a given that you will have enough lye in your soap.......unless perhaps your scale is not weighing properly, but if that is the case, it could go either way- you may end up with either too much or too little lye. 

Suffice it to say that if your soap holds together and lathers (i.e., is not a liquidy, lather-less, gooey mess), you'll know you at least used enough lye to make soap.

If it's really lye heavy, it'll be brittle and you'll most likely find that it will still zap for weeks and weeks later after unmolding. But if you were on the low side with the lye, your soap will just have a higher superfat than you intended, and may or may not feel as hard as other soaps (the degree of softness/hardness will depend on the oils you used and how big the superfat). 

For what its worth (to give you an idea of how far off you can be on the low side and still be okay), you can get away with being at least 20% deficient on the lye but still end up with a decent soap, depending on the oils/fats you used. For example, I make a 100% coconut oil soap with a 20% superfat and it it's quite lovely.




aeiou_- said:


> Also, I would deeply appreciate input on when it is the appropriate time to zap test. I've read on different posts to zap test while the bar is still in the mold. Is the curing still considered part of the saponification process? Is saponification over after it stops zapping, or if it never does? Thanks for reading!


 
I would never, ever zap test the soap while its still in the mold......at least not when doing CP anyway. In my opinion, that is just foolhardy. It's different with HP, though- HP should be zap-tested after the cook when the soap is still in batter phase just before one molds it.

For my CP, if it has gelled, I just zap test sometime within the next few days after unmolding/cutting. If un-gelled, I wait at least a week.

RE: Curing and saponification: those are 2 different things. Saponification means 'to turn into soap' and it is complete when there's lather _and _no longer any zap in the soap. For gelled soap, saponification usually concludes somewhere within the time-frame of a 6 to 24 hour period (depending on the formula). For un-gelled soap, it usually takes a few days longer, and can even take as long as up to a week (based on my own experience).

Curing, on the other hand, is what happens _after_ saponification is complete, and it proceeds at a much, much slower pace than saponification. Although the soap lathers and there's no zap, its lathering ability will increase during cure, the pH will go down some, and it will feel milder/less harsh to the skin.

Particular length of cure varies from person to person based on their formula and the acceptable, good, or optimal levels of performance their soap is able to achieve as it matures. For me, I've found that most of my formulas reach an acceptable level of performance by 4 weeks of cure, and they mature to more optimal levels by about the 6 to 8 week mark. But they keep getting even better beyond 8 weeks (albeit at an even slower, less obvious rate). 

This raises the question- is there a point where the increase in performance levels off and the gains are so small that it is no longer worth waiting it out any longer? Yes, but it's not a 'set-in-stone' point or anything like that. It will be different for each individual soaper and their formulas, as well as their own personal likes or dislikes. Speaking only for myself, that point lies somewhere between 3 months to 6 months of cure.


IrishLass


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## aeiou_- (Sep 20, 2016)

Thank you very much for the in depth response! The process is much easier to visualize now. I am one of those cursed with the visual learning and need to check everything off before I can be satisfied with my results. I have spent a lot of time reading and watching videos, lately, but some things just aren't easy to find specific answers on.

Assuming the soap does not zap and it is in the curing process, let's say two weeks, even though it is not done curing.. can one do a lather test or better yet use it in the shower? I understand that curing makes for a harder bar, which will last longer, but will it still be irritating to the skin? I read someone in a different post mention that ph strips aren't really that effective for measuring ph.. that being said, has anyone ever found a bar that does not zap with unruly ph not safe for the skin?


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## Susie (Sep 20, 2016)

You are more than welcome to try your soap at whatever stage you choose.  However, we are not responsible for the results.  So, if you find your two week old soap not good to shower with after you have taken the shower, then you have learned.  There is a reason I suggest washing your hands with it first.


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## dibbles (Sep 20, 2016)

I confess to trying a sliver of soap to test it out - sometimes the same day I cut it. It probably isn't the smartest thing to do, and I don't recommend this for anyone. But only at the sink and only washing my hands. I never shower with a bar until it is at least 4 weeks old.


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## Arimara (Sep 20, 2016)

aeiou_- said:


> Thank you very much for the in depth response! The process is much easier to visualize now. I am one of those cursed with the visual learning and need to check everything off before I can be satisfied with my results. I have spent a lot of time reading and watching videos, lately, but some things just aren't easy to find specific answers on.
> 
> Assuming the soap does not zap and it is in the curing process, let's say two weeks, even though it is not done curing.. can one do a lather test or better yet use it in the shower? I understand that curing makes for a harder bar, which will last longer, but will it still be irritating to the skin? I read someone in a different post mention that ph strips aren't really that effective for measuring ph.. that being said, has anyone ever found a bar that does not zap with unruly ph not safe for the skin?



Being a visual learner is not a curse. I wish I was confined to it. But somehow, I also learn from listening to lectures as long as the speaker is not doing anything distracting.



dibbles said:


> I confess to trying a sliver of soap to test it out - sometimes the same day I cut it. It probably isn't the smartest thing to do, and I don't recommend this for anyone. But only at the sink and only washing my hands. I never shower with a bar until it is at least 4 weeks old.



I have found that slivers are deceptive. I just use a tester bar to see how the  soap is coming along.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 21, 2016)

I would also just test them on hands to start off with. Also, don't think about adjustments in this phase, especially until you get more experienced- a two week old cp soap is really not going to be a good representation of how the soap could be at 8 weeks. So take these tests as a chance to see what a difference the cure makes for now. Later you can get a better feel for how a soap might develop from using it early, but even then what can seem to be a terrible soap can age well and end up being lovely. 

A two week old soap can also seem harsher. pH has no part in that, it is something about how the soap cures instead. pH can have a place in soaping to some extent, however many of us do not measure the pH at all and many of those who do are only doing it for information purposes and are also testing accurately with dedicated equipment. 

For now, concentrate on the recipe and your process and leave pH to one side. A soap with a bad recipe badly made will be a worse soap than a well made soap with a balanced recipe. Even if the latter has a higher pH than the former.


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