# I made a royal mistake...



## lionprincess00 (Feb 13, 2016)

And I need  your help! Ahh!
Made 2 lotion batches. Same amount and ingredients. Labeled the cool down ingredients together, labeled one MA for my mom, and mine with my name. Cool down ingredients were ipm, fo, and optiphen. I also planned a soap and premeasured my fragrance at the soapy station and left it unlabeled. They were in identical containers saran wrapped. Can you guess what happened next?!?!

My personal lotion batch.
454 total grams
5% ewax 23 grams
2% stearic acid 9 grams
5% shea 23 grams
15% sweet almond 68 grams 
1% optiphen 5 grams
68.5% water 311 grams
Now....
It was supposed to have 
3% ipm 13 grams 
.5% fo 2 grams

And.......I dumped in my 1 oz fo blend intended for soap!
1 oz! My calculations show that to be 28.35 grams! 
It was a blend- .3 oz vanilla rosewood bb, .4oz sandalwood ot, .3oz rosewood fo wsp.

No ipm, no preservative, and an oz of fo! What do i do? Ot and bb dont list ifra guidelines and I'm only getting bb mobile site, the desktop may list it??? Smells not overwhelming, kinda like a cologne.

Do i dump out and total the weight, subtract 3% and blend ipm, subtract 1% and add optiphen, or do i dump it out and add more lotion to make the fo % of total reasonable? Thank you all for your help!!

EDIT
I did a cross multiply.
28 grams fo i used is to x grams total
As
2 original grams fo was to 454 original grams total
I got 28 grams fo will be needed in 6,356 total grams to be at .5% which is 224 oz.

I'm thinking I can't save this?


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## snappyllama (Feb 14, 2016)

If you don't want a vat of lotion... I'd be tempted to try to fiddle what you've got into a soap mainly because I'm curious about what the ewax would be like. Plus I hate to throw things out when I could just possibly waste a few more ingredients on a failure. 

So I played on SoapCalc for a minute and came up with this test recipe that keeps your FO to .5oz ppo, keeps your water amount that same, and makes about 2lbs of soap. You'd just need to up your Sweet Almond oil, add Lard, add CO, and some lye. The ewax and stearic will not play nicely, but there really isn't that much in...

Possibly a disaster, but who knows??


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

snappyllama said:


> If you don't want a vat of lotion... I'd be tempted to try to fiddle what you've got into a soap mainly because I'm curious about what the ewax would be like. Plus I hate to throw things out when I could just possibly waste a few more ingredients on a failure.
> 
> So I played on SoapCalc for a minute and came up with this test recipe that keeps your FO to .5oz ppo, keeps your water amount that same, and makes about 2lbs of soap. You'd just need to up your Sweet Almond oil, add Lard, add CO, and some lye. The ewax and stearic will not play nicely, but there really isn't that much in...
> 
> Possibly a disaster, but who knows??



You and I are on the same wavelength, I thought of this last night haha! My thinking was ewax wont turn to fatty salt, so it'll be similar to jojoba oil (isn't it high in unsaps)??? Stearic was a tad intimidating,  would I have to crock pot it and hp? Without the cool down ingredients,  it could right possibly be turned into soap. Thanks snappy. You've given me the courage to investigate this now.


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## snappyllama (Feb 14, 2016)

Personally, I'd try to CP it first since the FO is already in there, plus the stearic acid and ewax are such low overall portions.  I'd probably use a double boiler to melt the oils instead of the microwave, color the oils before adding the lye solution, soap hot and move quickly to mold. 

I'd keep a crockpot handy just in case.

ETA: Oh jeepers, I cannot believe I didn't think of this. The lye solution!!! You have the right water amount, but it wasn't used to dissolve the lye. It's already in in the oils. So you need to add 128gm more water just to dissolve the lye. It would work, but those bars are going to be pretty warped when the excess of water finally evaporates out.

I'd probably still do it, because I never let common sense get the better of me.


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

snappyllama said:


> Personally, I'd try to CP it first since the FO is already in there, plus the stearic acid and ewax are such low overall portions.  I'd probably use a double boiler to melt the oils instead of the microwave, color the oils before adding the lye solution, soap hot and move quickly to mold.
> 
> I'd keep a crockpot handy just in case.
> 
> ...



I've realized the water issue. I'm trying to work off your recipe tweaking it now. I really don't want 5lbs of soap lol, but looks like I may wind up with it. I love this simple soap, and have always been so focused on swirling I've never taken the time to try it. Now is my chance! (See pic) I'll update with a recipe check. Oh. One last thing. I had appx an oz left over i poured into a bottle with mom's lotion, which i can no longer get out and use since it is combined. I subtracted an oz, converting to grams, and adjusted the shea, almond etc accordingly. Pretty good at math so I'm confident my calculations won't be too far off.


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

Ok, i am low on almond oil so i upped shea to 5% and castor a tad higher. Have a ton of lard. It will be a little water logged. Is it a known fact water and lye absolutely MUST be at LEAST a 1:1 ratio?

How's this look? Good grief, can you read it?!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 14, 2016)

A 50% lye concentration is a practical maximum. The theoretical tables say approximately 52% lye concentration is tops for a solution at 60 deg F. You might be able to get away with a higher % if you keep it hot, but I don't have any practical experience to share about how to do this. Hope this helps!


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> A 50% lye concentration is a practical maximum. The theoretical tables say approximately 52% lye concentration is tops at room temperature.



You're a lovely woman, thank you!!! I'm adding bare minimum to lye. This will obviously take a long cure. I'm thinking 4-6 months perhaps?
If you can't read, 
Almond 10.86% 100 gr, had 64 (adjusted per loss of an oz) so add 36
Castor 6.51% 60 gr
CO 18.46% 170 gr
Lard 57.55% 530 gr
Shea 5.65% 52 gr, has 22 (adjusted per loss of an oz) add 30
Stearic .98% 9 gr 

27.3% lye concentration full water
Water 350 grams, already has 311, difference of 39 grams
Lye 131 grams 
At 52% lye concentration that showed to be 121.31 grams water is needed to dissolve the 131.42 grams lye.

I have 311 grams water in the lotion base. Adding the 52% figures of 121.31 grams water puts full water content to 432.31 grams in finished soap.
Yeah going to need a heafty cure. 

I'll probably remain a 1:1 ratio for safety. 

Thank you both again!


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## snappyllama (Feb 14, 2016)

I'm dying to know how this one turns out! You'll have to keep us posted.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 14, 2016)

I updated my earlier post to be more accurate, but my edits don't really change matters -- I think I too would stick with 50% max if I were in your shoes. 

I don't think the stearic at 1% is going to give you much trouble. Can't say anything about what the e-wax will do as far as accelerating trace or whatever -- I'm really curious how that will go for you.


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

Im thinking ewax will make a waxy feel maybe like pko and hard bar. At less than 1% I'm ok with the stearic.
Running an additional 23 grams of ewax to the mix, it is 2.44% of the total. Hopefully thats low enough to keep thing calm. I'm going to have 12 bars of this, quite interested to see the results! Will of course keep everyone updated. Thank you again snappy and deeanna.


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## Seawolfe (Feb 14, 2016)

Wow if it works you will be like the people who add "lotion to every bar"! 
Im dying to see if this works too - good luck and safe soaping!!


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## cmzaha (Feb 14, 2016)

Not knowing which E Wax you used but E-Wax NF (Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60) has a Sap of 14.0. If you look up the ingredients for your Wax you can many times find the sap


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> Not knowing which E Wax you used but E-Wax NF (Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60) has a Sap of 14.0. If you look up the ingredients for your Wax you can many times find the sap



Well crap.
Cetylstearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 80
Not known in what proportions. It's bb. Advice anyone?

Edit, someone asked for the ratio on reviews and wasn't given an answer.


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## Seawolfe (Feb 14, 2016)

SWAG to 14.0? Fake it to half and let it be superfatted? Does superfatting with lotion (stable emulsification of oils and waters) mean the same as superfatting with oils?

A Random Google gave me this page - do a word search on it and it will show properties and SAPs: http://www.keyblends.com/2-uncategorised?start=40

It says PS 20 has a SAP of 48 and PS 80 has a SAP of 148

And this site http://www.kicgroup.com/cetst5050.htm

Says that cetyl stearyl alcohol has a max SAP of 0.5 - so hardly any

So if you SWAG that the proportions of alcohol and PS are similar, your SAP might be roughly 1/3 of the E-WAX Carolyn mentioned - or around 5? Might be safest to ignore it and let the excess be the SF?


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

Seawolfe said:


> Wow if it works you will be like the people who add "lotion to every bar"!
> Im dying to see if this works too - good luck and safe soaping!!



Thx seawolf. Missed your response, sorry!


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

Seawolfe said:


> SWAG to 14.0? Fake it to half and let it be superfatted? Does superfatting with lotion (stable emulsification of oils and waters) mean the same as superfatting with oils?



Cetylstearyl Alcohol as on bb (everyone else on the net writes cetyl sterearyl), it's different than cetaryl alcohol, no? I googled cetylstearyl alcohol sap and got 2.0, 1.0, .5, and <4.5...any case it seems less than what carolyn posted.


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

Going for it. Here's the lotion in all its pure white light and fluffy glory. On the spatula.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 14, 2016)

That's going to be a KOH saponification value in mg KOH per gram of "fat", because that's the traditional way sap values are given. Divide that number by 1.403 to get the NaOH sap value, which will end up being an even smaller number. 

If you follow the shave soap discussions, you might remember a conversation awhile back about "stearic" acid not really being stearic acid. The normal commercial stuff is about 50% palmitic and 50% stearic because it's what they get when they break down palm oil into its fatty acids. The same is true for what they call cetylstearyl alcohol -- convert fatty acids from palm oil into their equivalent alcohols, and you get about 50% cetyl and 50% stearyl.

Go, LP, go!!!! Rootin' for ya!!!!


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

Thank you everyone!!! All melted, lye cool, wish me luck!


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

Done! Hand wisked and immediately became pic #1
Added fo to come to a total of 2 oz, already had 28gr/1 oz.
Wisked more and looked curdled. Pic 2, see side of pot
SB 15 seconds and went to light medium trace asap. Got so freaking hot! I soap by feel of the stainless pots and it felt ok, but, either it super heated or it was too hot in oils. Reached 160 F. Panicked and had someone replace an empty trash bag in case it volcanoed.
Split base into cup, colored main batter, and poured. Did a drop of base and hanger. Because it was curdled it plopped out even though trace was descent. Plopped batter onto my skin over my top lip. Stopped, cleaned, and finished. Hot still! Watching it.
Side note it isn't ricing I'm pretty sure, there was no binding clumps like ricing, just curdles.
And by the time I got this typed it cooled dramatically. May even cpop!


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## snappyllama (Feb 14, 2016)

Wow, you got it into the mold and it looks really similar to your inspiration one. Sweet!


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

snappyllama said:


> Wow, you got it into the mold and it looks really similar to your inspiration one. Sweet!



Thx! I couldnt resist and hanger swirled the base into sea green. Sigh. Wasn't build for elegant simple soaps. Love this color, though. Unfortunately if the white blobs on top are any indicator, the white base on top (no TD) hangered into sea greeny will not show well as it didn't on the tops.
In full gel. I preheated 170, put in, and forgot to turn off! 80% gelled after 10 minutes, gah! Pulled out, turned off, cooled and back in another 10-12 minutes in oven off. Think almost full gel, back in a few min to complete.
Thank you again EVERYONE for your help!!!!!!


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## doriettefarm (Feb 14, 2016)

Hats off to you lp for thinking outside the box!  Looks like you turned the royal mistake into something lovely and who knows maybe you'll actually want to repeat it.  Pretty sure I would have just chucked it or ended up with a gallon of lotion!


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 14, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> Hats off to you lp for thinking outside the box!  Looks like you turned the royal mistake into something lovely and who knows maybe you'll actually want to repeat it.  Pretty sure I would have just chucked it or ended up with a gallon of lotion!



I dont know what happened. Phones acting funny. The above post was for snappy. I told you, and now it's missing, doriettefarm: thank you (and thx snappy for the oomph I needed to go for it). Doriettefarm,  I'd have chucked it had it not been for a confirmation of this possibly becoming a soap. What a hassle, but if it works,  how cool will that be? !?!
Sorry, phone froze multiple times earlier while typing.


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 15, 2016)

UPDATE-
I cut it at 430am. It was soft, but able to be cut without incident. There's fo seepage, but that's not unusual. I was concerned about waiting too long. The stearic is only an 11, and my typical stearic content ranges from 6-10, but it's been as high as 12. I was mainly concerned with the ewax, being an unknown. No swirls, just white blobs lol. Ugly, but soap and zap free!


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 15, 2016)

Ok, it's a lotion feel to the soap and surprisingly doesnt leave a drying feel after less than 24 hours. No, in fact, it felt soft on the hands afterwards. Lotion feel could be the lard admittedly. It's going to need a long cure of course, and is still indented with a finger poke. It does lather well for excessively high water, though not wonderfully, and hopefully will lather better in several months.
Pic 1 soaps.
Pic 2 weird white blobs in the plain base, lotion seperated out???
Pic 3 lather. 14-16 hours after made and NOT drying in the least surprisingly.


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## Arimara (Feb 15, 2016)

I think the white is kinda awesome. It's giving the soap a cloud kind of appeal.


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## snappyllama (Feb 15, 2016)

That came out awesome and looks like it's lathering well for a newborn soap with high water. I like the look of the white portions... do they have the same texture as the rest of it?


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## cmzaha (Feb 15, 2016)

I like the white globbies. Looks really nice and a great save


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 15, 2016)

Thx everyone! Yes snappy, it seems too. A tad more vaseline like in base than in white within the base. Maybe it's down to a partial gel issue.
Note to clarify, not sea green, but tiny white pure blobs in the base color of soap tinted uncolored. Just in case I was confusing anyone


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## lionprincess00 (Feb 15, 2016)

Snappy, deeanna, seawolfe, carolyn, doriette, arimara, susie, shunt...I will personally send you all a bar after water loss diminishes greatly, granted  there are no dos of funkies that develop, and IF interested/IF not allergic. Just ask for precise (as best as I could) measurements if concerned.
PM me and expect a summer giftie! Maybe late summer lol:wink:
If you contributed to this thread in any way, I  am more than grateful. Too much for one gal, so I'll share. If i dont hear a yea or nay, I'll pm the offer to be sure you passed it up intentionally


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## Seawolfe (Feb 16, 2016)

Omigosh clouds! That is SO pretty. You may be onto something wonderful here.

Edit to add: waving grabby paws here!!


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## regansoap (Feb 16, 2016)

It's beautiful you could call it cloudy day I love it.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 16, 2016)

I like how the final turned out.  Nice job troubleshooting and being brave enough to try to fix it.  Great job!  Unfortunately, I had nothing to contribute to your achieving this.


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## TheDragonGirl (Feb 16, 2016)

It turned out lovely! Especially for something with such a rocky start.


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