# Is non-fat powdered milk good enough?



## Arthur Dent (Jul 21, 2015)

Re-reading some recent threads on milk soaps has given me the itch to try it in one of my favorite lard recipes.  Looking at powdered milks in the local stores, all I see is non-fat powdered milk.  Will this give the "milk soap" effect that people seem to be crazy about, even though the milk fat is missing?   Or do I need to keep looking for a "whole" powdered milk or just give up on the powder and go for the real deal?  I think I can wrangle some fresh cow's milk eventually, but wanted to play around with the powder first.   Sorry if this has been talked to death, I did a search and didn't find it.


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## jenneelk (Jul 21, 2015)

I have tried the nonfat powder and IMO it's not as creamy as my powder buttermilk, coconut or goats that all have fats and thus superfat my soap more. But maybe its just in my head lol.  I'll be curious to see what others say.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 21, 2015)

I wonder if, as it has less fat, it is missing some of those proteins as well as not affecting the sf - as in, even if you manually adjusted your sf to the point it would be if you were using fat milk, would there still be that  lack of certain benefit that the milk fat brings, because of the nature of the fat with the proteins and so on?


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## Dorymae (Jul 21, 2015)

You can get whole milk powder at Walmart - it is in the Spanish foods section and comes in a bright yellow canister. I think it is called Nico or something like that. Definitely use whole milk powder.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 21, 2015)

I had the same issue, which is why I switched to canned milk.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 21, 2015)

Or just add a little bit of butter. Seriously. The fat in whole milk is simply butter aka milkfat -- about 3.5% milkfat in the US. There's going to be some buytric acid contributed by the butterfat, but I'd guess there's not enough to make a great deal of difference to the soap recipe.

Nonfat powdered milk is going to keep longer than whole powdered milk, since there is no fat to oxidize and go rancid. If you use it up quick, that won't be a problem, but store it in the fridge or freezer if you're going to keep it around for awhile.

To give another spin on it, here's how I do it -- if I need, say, 400 g water for a recipe, I will use half that (200 g) as plain distilled water to make my lye solution (assuming the lye is equal to or less than 200g). I will measure out the other half of the "water" as fluid whole milk. I weigh enough powdered nonfat milk needed to reconstitute the water into milk. I put the powder into the fluid milk and give it a good mix so it rehydrates well. Add the "double milk" to my fats and give the whole mess a quick whir with the SB right before adding the lye solution.


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## IrishLass (Jul 21, 2015)

Dorymae said:


> You can get whole milk powder at Walmart - it is in the Spanish foods section and comes in a bright yellow canister. I think it is called Nico or something like that. Definitely use whole milk powder.


 
Yes- as Dory said, you can find whole powdered cow milk at Walmart. It's called Nido and it's made by Nestle. I use it in some of my bread recipes and always keep a canister on hand, since besides soap, I've crazily taken to making all our bread as well. lol Anyway, I find it makes such a nice difference in the crumb. I've never used it in my soap, though. I like to use goat milk and coconut milk in my soap instead. 



			
				DeeAnna said:
			
		

> Or just add a little bit of butter. Seriously. The fat in whole milk is simply butter aka milkfat -- about 3.5% milkfat in the US. There's going to be some buytric acid contributed by the butterfat, but I'd guess there's not enough to make a great deal of difference to the soap recipe.


 
Just be prepared for the possibility of stinky soap, though. The butyric acid content in cow's milk is why I like to soap goat milk and/or coconut milk instead. My cow milk soaps that I made in the past always ended up smelling sour or like vomit from the butyric content, so I quit using it. The handful of soapers I know of that have added butter to their soap ended up regretting it (because of the smell).


IrishLass


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## snappyllama (Jul 21, 2015)

Irishlass, I'm glad I'm not the only that detects a faint baby vomit smell when using cow milk (even at a low %).  My family all thought I was crazy when I would sniff that batch, say how bad it smelled and then make them sniff it. They ended up using it all, but I just couldn't ignore it. Maybe they just took it and threw it out to avoid listening to me repeat how bad I thought it smelled. Blech.


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## Arthur Dent (Jul 21, 2015)

Well shoot!  I was getting all excited until I got to the part about the baby vomit smell. :Kitten Love:


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## not_ally (Jul 21, 2015)

I've noticed that faint unpleasant smell w/the soaps to which I added full/whipping cream.  Good to know, I do not like it.

ETA:  Arthur, I ordered all my milk powders (all full fat) on line, there was no close local source, and it was so much easier.  I am a lard freak, too.  I LOVE the addition of coconut milk, especially.

Plus w/Amazon Prime shipping was free and took 2 days:

Yogurt:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CSRMYDE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Buttermilk: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014UH6UM/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Coconut milk: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XTCU52/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Goats milk: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004K69OMU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## OliveOil2 (Jul 21, 2015)

I put milk or yogurt in most of my batches, and I had one batch that smelled exactly like baby vomit. I thought it was just me, since I would ask people to smell it, and they would say that is a super nice lavender. 
I would have to look at my notes, to see what type of milk it was, I most often use goat milk, but I am betting it was cow milk, probably Bulgarian Buttermilk. To my nose the smell never went away, and I couldn't figure out why I was the only one who thought it smelled terrible.


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## not_ally (Jul 21, 2015)

OO, other people can't smell the nasty tinge in mine, either, but I know it is there.  In a fragrance blend of litsea EO and lemon verbena FO which is pretty assertive.  So I'm glad for this thread (thanks, IL!) I am going to skip non-yogurt cow's milk in the future, I think.

ETA:  IL, do you find that using powdered milk (cow's milk, that is) is less likely to cause the stinky effect than the liquid stuff?


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## OliveOil2 (Jul 21, 2015)

I felt guilty, because I dumped the batch, but I didn't want to subject anyone else to it. I donate a bunch of soap, and I usually make an extra effort to make sure those bars are nicely wrapped and labeled. It wasn't even something I thought was worth grating or cutting into imbeds. It would be so awful to have someone open a bar and think baby vomit!


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## not_ally (Jul 21, 2015)

I know what you mean, I feel guilty about dumping batches too.  Like food, which is even worse b/c I live by myself, like to cook but am not a big eater.  

I don't want to donate soap that I wouldn't use myself, but sometimes wonder if my standards are different than that of a non-soaper, ie; maybe something I think is hideous is not so much in the non-soaper world ...


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## Susie (Jul 21, 2015)

So glad to know I am not the only one that gets the whole "spit up" smell from some soap.  I stopped using milks because of that.  

GM does not cause it?  Truly? 

My next batch is Coconut Milk/watermelon, but I would like to re-visit GM after that if I can avoid the smell.


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## not_ally (Jul 21, 2015)

Susie, I have only noticed it in the full cream cow's milk soaps, so I am thinking it is an issue of high fat content in cow's milk.  I haven't noticed it in the gm soaps, which of course have lower fat, but will check now to be sure.  Please opine, anyone else who has noticed ....


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## Arthur Dent (Jul 21, 2015)

So, if the butyric acid is in the butter fat, which has been removed from the non-fat powdered milk, then soap made with the the non-fat powdered milk theoretically shouldn't have the baby puke smell.  You should still get the soapy goodness from the lactose and milk proteins, because most of those are still there.  
Sounds like a couple of pretty good check marks in favor of at least trying the non-fat milk powder.
Yes?


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## DeeAnna (Jul 22, 2015)

"...soap made with the the non-fat powdered milk theoretically shouldn't have the baby puke smell...."

That's my take on the matter. 

I have made a butter soap with butterfat being about 16.5% of the total fat in the batch. There was a distinct cheesy/yeasty "butyric" odor to that particular soap. I wouldn't call it baby puke, but obviously YMMV on that. 

I haven't smelled that butyric smell from any soap I've made with just cow's milk, whether whole, non-fat, or something in between. We're talking far, far less butterfat added by the milk than what one would add of a fragrance. And of that butter fat, only a few percent is butyric. 

The last recipe I made with milk on 10 July was based on 1500 g fats. I needed about 500 g liquid. 
If the liquid was entirely whole milk at 3.5% butterfat, the total butterfat contributed by the milk is about:
butterfat weight= 500 g X 3.5 / 100 = 17.5 g

Of that butterfat, about 3% is butyric acid*, so the total weight of butyric in this recipe is about:
butyric acid weight = 17.5 g X 3 / 100 = 0.5 g

The total soap weight (fat + lye + milk + additives) was about 2500 g, so the % of butyric in this recipe is about:
% butyric acid = 0.5 g / 2500 g X 100 = .02%

* Source: www.webexhibits.org/butter/compounds-fatty.html


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## snappyllama (Jul 22, 2015)

Susie, definitely give goat milk a try. I've never gotten any odor from it and have used fresh, concentrated canned, and powdered. I've done the split method and ice cube method. Neither method made any difference.


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## Susie (Jul 22, 2015)

I used full fat evaporated cow's milk with the split method when I noticed the "spit up" smell overwhelming the EO I added.  I tossed that whole batch, so I don't know if the smell went away.  

I will re-try GM evaporated milk as soon as I start soaping again.  I really need to reduce what I have on hand first, though.  I had just rendered all that tallow when I found out I was getting married, so I made a LOT of soap in a short period of time to use it up.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 22, 2015)

I also get the baby vomit smell. Since I started using canned milk, it is gone, or only very very faint.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 22, 2015)

Evaporated milk is about twice as concentrated as regular fluid milk, so there's going to be about double the fat (and butyric acid). That may be enough to make a difference.


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## not_ally (Jul 22, 2015)

D, that is the exact smell, cheesy rather than baby vomit.  I just checked again, it really is is pretty faint after a couple month cure.  Does it eventually cure out completely, do you know?


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## DeeAnna (Jul 22, 2015)

I don't remember. It's been a couple of years since I made that batch of butter soap. I don't remember the butyric odor as being particularly strong or obvious after cure, but I did use a spearmint EO in the batch. 

I knew before I made this soap that some people said butter soap smells bad, but I wanted to try it anyway. I remember thinking after making the soap that the smell wasn't any worse than my beer soap. Just different -- cheesy rather than hoppy.

I thought the combination of the butyric odor + spearmint turned out decent, at least to my particular nose. Hubby, friends, and family didn't say anything either, but I realize that doesn't mean no one thought it smelled "off". But I didn't see any instant nose-wrinkling reactions either.


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## not_ally (Jul 22, 2015)

I suspect that in part we smell everything in the soap more than other people do, just b/c we are so obsessed w/it!  No one else has said "yuck, cheese" when smelling that soap.


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## IrishLass (Jul 22, 2015)

It could also definitely be the difference in our individual scent receptors. As I'm often fond of saying, one person's Jasmine is another person's cat pee. :razz: lol 

I've never used powdered cows milk or evaporated cow's milk, but I've used heavy cream and also whole milk (both cow), and it made my lily of the valley soap and my rose soap smell quite sour/pukey. I ended up giving those to Clean the World to be recycled. 

Goat milk and coconut have never done that to my soap and I've used canned, powdered and fresh of each. When first unmolded they might emit a slight ammonia smell, but it completely goes away after a few days.

In comparison, my cow milk/cream soaps smelled sour/pukey for a long time. I kept them for about a year before finally giving up hope and sending them away to be recycled. They were good soaps- no DOS or anything, but my nose just couldn't take the sour smell.


IrishLass


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## dillsandwitch (Jul 23, 2015)

I have used cow milk in several batches. Fresh the UHT kind and powdered. I have never detected any off smells coming from my soaps.  Maybe my sniffer is broken. hahahaha.  DH hasn't said anything about any odd smells either an he's pretty picky when it comes to his soap smells.


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## not_ally (Jul 23, 2015)

Dill, for me I think it has been the combo b/w cow's milk and high butterfat.  I only get the smell w/heavy cream, not yogurt or buttermilk, and I made the heavy cream with 1/2 milk and the other two w/full milk, so the differences are even more pronounced.


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## TheDragonGirl (Jul 24, 2015)

I have actually gotten the sour smell off of the nonfat milk powder /but/ it was very concentrated because I miss measured the water to powder ratio


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## dillsandwitch (Jul 24, 2015)

Hmmm maybe I have just lucked out then or the my FO just out-ways any smells? I do like to have my FO on the strong side


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## shunt2011 (Jul 24, 2015)

I'm another one who doesn't notice any off smell from milks.  I use buttermilk, cream, 1/2 & 1/2, goat and coconut. (liquid & powder)  I think IL may be that some folks smell sensors are very sensitive to different things.


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## Arthur Dent (Jul 26, 2015)

I took the plunge today and made a sample batch of my favorite lard recipe with Carnation non-fat milk powder added (mixed into the oils), we'll see how it goes.


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## Arthur Dent (Jul 27, 2015)

I unmolded and cut the soap tonight.  There is no "vomit" smell at all, there is a very slight hint of ammonia, which I understand should disappear as it cures.  There is another odd smell though, which is impossible to describe.  I assume it is milk related, as I have never gotten this smell from this recipe before (without the milk of course).  I didn't use any scent in this batch, which might have been a mistake, but I wanted to be positive about the vomit smell.  Does anyone know if this odd smell will go away as it cures, or is this something that needs to be masked with scent?

ETA:

It's kind of a "cooked milk" smell I guess.  Wife says she doesn't smell it, so I have hopes that it will fade.
I did not refrigerate anything to discourage gell, nor did I insulate to encourage it, so the bars are light brownish but not the "burnt orange" that one often sees.


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## Arthur Dent (Jul 28, 2015)

I was worried about nothing, the odd smell is mostly gone already.  It is a nice pleasant light tan color, nowhere near the orange one often sees, so I am happy with this so far.  I'll let it cure a few weeks and we'll see what it's like.


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## not_ally (Jul 28, 2015)

V. nice, smooth, looking texture, Arthur.


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## not_ally (Aug 4, 2015)

I just tried that cream soap, was at my  mom's house and she had a bag  of my soaps in her bathroom which of course I had to sniff.  In part to  see how they did when you kept a bunch of different scented ones in a  bag   She had a couple of the cream ones in there and I sniffed one,  got the cheesy smell, and was about to throw them both out when I figured out I would try one first.  I kind of loved it, v. moisturizing, big loose creamy bubbles, just really nice.  Also did not smell bad in use.  

I just looked at the recipe and there was a lot of fat in it (not just butterfat) - 24 oz of oils and 2 oz cream/1.5 oz avocado puree/half oz of gm powder.  It did have some cucumber puree in it, which adds some astringency - I must have been in a very "additive-y" mood that day - and was SF'd at 5%, lower than my normal 7-8% b/c of all the fat.  But it was a really nice soap except for the faint odor when dry.  I might try and figure out a way to get around it somehow.


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## Arthur Dent (Aug 4, 2015)

Interesting N_A.  
I sliced one of my bars into sample sizes a couple of days ago, and though the whole bars did not smell, the "cheesy" smell was pretty strong from the cuts. :Kitten Love:   
Obviously this is one that demands a full cure.
I hope it's worth the wait.


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## not_ally (Aug 4, 2015)

The cure on this one was about three mos., I think.  So maybe it would  cure out completely after 6 mos and take care of the problem, I think it  would be worth the wait for me.  I did pretty much forget about it for  the first three, though   I would put it at the v. back of the rack and have a fit of absent-mindedness.


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## Arthur Dent (Jan 10, 2016)

Update:
At 5+ months old this is a really good soap.  Nice and hard, with good lather and bubbles.  No detectable "off smell".
I'll make this one again.


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