# Does homemade soap disinfect at all ??



## Gaspar Navarrete (Apr 16, 2014)

Hello everyone,

We all know that homemade soap can feel great on our skin. However, someone brought up this point and I didn't know how to answer: One thing that soap is supposed to do is kill some bacteria, and hinder the spread of microbes.

Do the saponified salts in our soaps do this ?

Thanks


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## Lin (Apr 16, 2014)

You don't need soap to kill bacteria. In fact antibacterial soaps cause more problems than they help, but I won't get into that.  Studies show antibacterial soaps versus regular soaps make no difference in the amount of bacteria on the hands left after washing. What DOES make a difference is washing technique,  washing the hands for a long enough period of time and the friction with the soap during the process.


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## lenarenee (Apr 16, 2014)

Welcome Gaspar from Montgomery County, MD!  (from a former resident of Howard Cty)  How are you, and how is MD?  My friends tell me I've missed a frigid, frigid winter!

Soap, whether store bought, detergent, or homemade, doesn't kill germs. There a chemistry thing with molecules (that I'm not knowledgeable enough to put into words) that explains why soap washes dirt, oil, and bacteria/viruses from our skin.  Through the washing process, the dirt and germs are lifted from the skin and are attracted to the something in the soap, and rinsed away.

Lin is correct about triclosan causing problems. My brother the civil engineer warned me 3 decades away that  soap and other products with triclosan will be major issues for the environment.


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## Gaspar Navarrete (Apr 16, 2014)

I didn't know that it was the washing technique that removed germs. I learned something here. I always thought that the store-bought soap had a special germ-killing ingredient. I have also heard that antibacterial soap is not what it's cracked up to be. In the public school system, the students frequently use hand sanitizer. Is this good ?



lenarenee said:


> Welcome Gaspar from Montgomery County, MD! (from a former resident of Howard Cty) How are you, and how is MD? My friends tell me I've missed a frigid, frigid winter!



Hello lenarenee,

Yes, we certainly had a winter here in MD. I can't complain. I don't go to Howard County much, so I don't know much about Howard City.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 16, 2014)

Ditto the above.  Slap the person who asked you if your soap kills germs on the back of the head and tell them to stop being a ninny*.

If you imagine that a soap molecule is a person falling down a cliff.  Our skin is the cliff.  Water is something very important to the falling person and dirt is parts of the cliff face - the falling person is being weighed down by the important thing and they try to grab the cliff face to stop falling.  The cliff face breaks off and they fall to their dooooooom!  

A soap molecule binds with the water and then has one binding (or arm!) free, which it grabs on to the dirt with.  The fight then comes with how easily the dirt comes off from our skin.

I'm pretty certain (and here we enter uncertainty for me) that germs can also be washed off like dirt to some degree.

* only slap them if you really have to!


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## Candybee (Apr 16, 2014)

I can't imagine anyone asking for a soap with any disenfectant. It makes my skin crawl thinking about it.


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## Susie (Apr 16, 2014)

Soap does disinfect.  It facilitates the removal of bacteria and viruses.  
Does it "kill" germs?  Not on skin or surfaces. 
But if the germs are not where they can infect someone, what does it matter?  The drain and sewer pipes are not going to have a problem with them.

Great analogy, TEG!  And, yes, the germs go with the dirt and dead skin cells.

Our society, thanks to the advertising agencies and the media, has become convinced that every "germ" must die.  We have spent many, many millions of dollars investing into this fallacy.  

If you look at the most healthy children, they grow up in households with pets and dirt, and germs.  It keeps their immune systems from attacking everything causing allergies and leading to other health issues.

The primary ingredient in "disinfectant" products is triclosan, and triclosan is far from safe!

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/...l-soaps-linked-with-impaired-muscle-function/

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...to-gauge-effectiveness-of-antibacterial-soaps


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## lenarenee (Apr 16, 2014)

We lived just a hop, skip and a jump from Montgomery county; and of course, used the Silver Spring metro for trips to Smithsonian.

As for hand sanitizer,  most of them are alcohol based and I haven't found a safety warning regarding their use, but I'm interested to hear what other
soapers might have learned.

We had 3 boys in Howard cty public schools, and once the teachers started a daily practice of using the sanitizer, I really didn't notice much difference in the frequency of the illness they boys came home with.

Now when they were re-districted to a new school (meaning not overcrowded and each classroom had it's own sink and water fountain) the practice there was that each student wash hands before eating lunch. There was a HUGE difference in the amount of illnesses the boys brought home.

Just as a note of curiosity: since I work in childcare and really hate getting sick, I started using the new oral spray called Halo.  (knock on wood....haven't been sick in a year.)


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## inkyfingers (Apr 16, 2014)

Once upon a time, I was a college student training to be a medical laboratory technologist.  One of the things we did, was swab random objects around the school and culture it, which we did (toilet seat, light switches, hair/scalp, etc...).  The swabbed objects resulting in the most colony forming units (bacterial growth), was the hair/scalp and the bar of soap by the sink.

 Soap provides a vehicle to remove dirt and germs from our skin, but it certainly doesn't kill anything unless it is made antibacterial by a specially added ingredient.

 We were all shocked, that's why I remember this 25 years later.


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## Gaspar Navarrete (Apr 16, 2014)

That's why forums like this are great.  They really shine the light of truth onto things and dispel the darkness of lies and misconceptions.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 16, 2014)

When I hear things like "there are more bacteria on your chopping board than on your toilet seat" I get worried - not because I think that there is something wrong with my chopping board, but because of the twisting that goes on in advertising.  

If pure amount of bacteria is what we use to judge if something should be bleached or not, then let's all look at some numbers.  50 bacteria per square inch on a loo seat, 10,000 bacteria per sq inch on a chopping board.  1 Million per sq inch of a dish cloth.  10 Million per sq inch on a kitchen sponge.

Wow.  High number.  Want to sanitise that sponge, eh?

Human skin?  32 million per square inch!  Get that bleach rubbed in to your skin.  That's not even going in to how much is in our stomachs.

My point with all this?  If we just look at shocking numbers, it makes no sense what so ever.  More bacteria on your chopping board than loo seat - but is that a bad thing?

People lived a very long time with no real germ control in their daily lives.  I'm not saying that it's not needed in hospitals and so on - but as has been said, just wash things properly with out bleaching every surface.

I lived with a woman for a while and she was manic with bleaching things.  I was ill so much it was not funny.  Then I lived with some people who were not quite so crazy with it and wasn't ill as much.  Our bodies need a certain amount, but because of advertising and people listening to an authoritative voice telling us about how we will die if we don't use this certain cleaning product, people just go to extremes.

Rant over, sorry - it just really annoys me.


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## Susie (Apr 16, 2014)

inkyfingers said:


> Once upon a time, I was a college student training to be a medical laboratory technologist.  One of the things we did, was swab random objects around the school and culture it, which we did (toilet seat, light switches, hair/scalp, etc...).  The swabbed objects resulting in the most colony forming units (bacterial growth), was the hair/scalp and the bar of soap by the sink.
> 
> Soap provides a vehicle to remove dirt and germs from our skin, but it certainly doesn't kill anything unless it is made antibacterial by a specially added ingredient.
> 
> We were all shocked, that's why I remember this 25 years later.



I am a registered nurse.  I took microbiology.  We did the same thing.  And people wonder why I am squicked by the thought of using bar soaps for routine handwashing(especially in the kitchen!)  And while I know good and well that the vast majority of those bacteria are not ones that harm us, I still see that petri dish.   I make liquid soap for handwashing.  I like my liquid soap for handwashing.


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## Saponista (Apr 16, 2014)

Weirdly I was a veterinary microbiologist and I've gone the other way. Don't get me wrong, I like my toilets disinfected but I am far less germ paranoid than my mother who has no microbiological training whatsoever.


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## AF_SOAP (Apr 16, 2014)

I use to work in a juvenile facility and as a staple there they had hand sanitize dispensers.  I never saw much use to them.  

If any has not told you, soap does not really kill germs, it just cleans dirt so to speak.  It also may or may not take care of bacteria both good and bad.  Also, in terms of cleaning, bubbles do matter.  They act as a transporter from dirt on the body to the water and finally rinsed off.  You do not need a lot of bubbles but in some respect they are necessary. 

I personally would not seek a soap that was a disinfectant.  Although, some soaps like dial are antibacterial which could be beneficial, but to me it is label appeal.

If you are looking for anti anything, it is not going to come from the oils and water/lye mixture.  It is going to come from additives like essential oils, plant matter, etc.  The only additive that comes to mind right off the top of my head is borax which does disinfect(it is used in laundry powders/liquids).  I am sure there are more but honestly stay away from it.  Let your body fight it naturally.


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## Saponista (Apr 16, 2014)

I think borax might have some issues associated with it too. It is restricted in the EU as it causes reproductive toxicity.


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## navigator9 (Apr 17, 2014)

When I do craft fairs, I will occasionally have a customer who says, "Oh, I only use anti-bacterial soap." So I now have a print out, with quotes from the Mayo Clinic, the CDC, and others, which explain why anti-bacterial soaps and alcohol based cleansers are not the best option. The print out ends with this quote.

*"The takeaway: If you are worried about MRSA, E. coli, SARS, influenza or simply the common cold, you know you should wash your hands.
Thoroughly.
Plain soap and water will do."*

Good handwashing technique, lots of friction, running water, with good handmade soap, of course....is really all you need.


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## Silverwolf (Apr 18, 2014)

If your looking for label appeal some EO's have a better antibiotic ability then triclosan does. Tea tree, lemon, clove and oregano all exhibit antibaterial qualities that are much stronger then triclosan mosty because of it's overuse. Now since soap washes the bacteria off it doesn't matter much from a bacteria count on your hands stand point.


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## jade-15 (Apr 24, 2014)

inkyfingers said:


> Once upon a time, I was a college student training to be a medical laboratory technologist.  One of the things we did, was swab random objects around the school and culture it, which we did (toilet seat, light switches, hair/scalp, etc...).  The swabbed objects resulting in the most colony forming units (bacterial growth), was the hair/scalp and the bar of soap by the sink.



This is the reason I use liquid soap for the toilet!  Not disinfectant, just the liquid type... so the soap can't sit there growing bacteria.
Of course, a saltbar wouldn't... but a salt bar for a hand soap? :O seems like a waste of a salt bar.  (I love my salt bars... )
I'm also a med lab scientist, and love micro.  Like Saponista, I've 'gone the other way' - not too worried at all about it.  
As explained in a micro lecture, if the good bacteria are knocked off your skin (or wherever), that just makes room for the bad bacteria to grow!


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 24, 2014)

It does desinfect to a degree but it doesn't completely removes all the germs. 
I am student nurse and we were taught that friction of drying hands with something actually does most of germ removal, but not 100% of them.
I mean, in normal household environment, what's the point in completely desinfecting hand if there are germs everywhere.
We did some lab tests at university and I was very surprised at the amount of different germs I Cary on my skin, hair, glasses and my nose gave particularly nasty results.


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## jade-15 (Apr 24, 2014)

fuzz-juzz said:


> We did some lab tests at university and I was very surprised at the amount of different germs I Cary on my skin, hair, glasses and my nose gave particularly nasty results.



yeahhhhh noses are grossssssssss.
(So gross that we don't even make a slide from a swab cause there's just way too much gunk).

I think an important point to make after doing these sorts of labs (swab your hand and plate it out etc) is to then ask "now... is anyone SICK despite all these germs?"

Actually one of our pracs was swabbing hands pre & post handwashing, and we had like five students use different hand-washes - so water, soap & water, hospital grade disinfecting soap etc.
Not much difference between soap & water and the harsh stuff.


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 24, 2014)

I think answer lies in our immune system, I think our bodies are well equipped against bad germs.
We don't have to bathe in antibacterial stuff. 
And one of my Uni notes states resident germs are more competitive foodwise than nonresident germ we pick up, so there's a big chance,  bad germs will just die off if we don't wash them off.
Swab of my nose grew staphylococcus epidermis which is a germ that belongs to normal human flora like many others. Few classmates grew Golden staph which can be pathogenic if given opportunity,  but mainly in hospital and patients who are already immunosuppressed or with wounds.
Swab of my glasses was gross as well, it grew 3 different fungus... ewww.
We did actually note differnce between unwashed hands, hands washed with soap and hands cleaned with alcohol rub. Alcohol was actually best disinfectant. Hands washed with soap were cleaner than gloves, we found germs on gloves... go figure...


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## jade-15 (Apr 24, 2014)

Yeah I watched a doctor last night thoroughly wash his hands, put gloves on (just regular, not the sterile ones)... then grab the door handle and walk out to go get something else.
*sigh*
Then set up his workspace/area.
THEN clean and dress the wound.

Oh well, he thoroughly flushed it with saline first so I don't think any bugs have a chance


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## Belinda02 (Apr 24, 2014)

Sounds like we need to be making lotions and soaps with immune boasters. And someone needs to insert message at beginning of thread to not be eating during reading of this thread. Yuck, cause my glasses are always barely readable.


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## AustinStraight (Apr 24, 2014)

So... who wants to try making hand sanitizer out of vodka?  And if the results aren't satisfactory... bottoms up!


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## InNae (Apr 24, 2014)

navigator9 said:


> *"The takeaway: If you are worried about MRSA, E. coli, SARS, influenza or simply the common cold, you know you should wash your hands. Thoroughly. Plain soap and water will do."*



Do you recall where you got this quote? I don't doubt this, but would love to have it on hand for the exact same purpose.

InNae


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## Carty812 (Apr 24, 2014)

Soap does not kill germ at all. It is all about technique when you wash your hands and rub them back and forth the friction is what actually kills the germs. It is know that antibacterial soap is not good to use all the time as it does help rid your skin of most bacteria when used properly. The disadvantage of this is it rids your body of good bacteria as well as bad. Believe it or not some bacteria is beneficial to our skin and will cause issues if your skin is constantly washed of it. In addition, every person on this planet regardless to how well they wash have germs on them. It is the reason your underarms smell after your workout. What happens is that you have bacteria there and when you sweat these germs "eat" it and then excrete it causing the odor. A lot of Americans even have MRSA or Methicillin Resistant Staff Aureus that is permanently colonized in your nose. But you don't hear anyone recommend they wash their noses out and further more this would not get rid of it anyway.

   Now for hand sanitizer. There is a large group of people in the medical field that believe this is the worst invention ever! People believe that because they have applied hand sanitizer they no longer need to wash. This is so not true! The Center For Disease Control or CDC recommends that you can use hand sanitizer up to three times if your hands are not visibly soiled but then you should wash. Also If your hands aRe visibly soiled you should wash with soap and water. Lastly if you have contact with multiple individuals you should wash your hand in between each contact.


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## Lin (Apr 24, 2014)

One of the big preventatives of bacterial infection is the good bacteria in the body. Being too obsessive with being clean inside and out will get rid of the healthy bacteria that your body depends on and allow pathogenic bacteria to take over.  Anyone on oral antibiotics should take probiotics (not at the same time! Stagger doses).  This will prevent some side effects like diarrhea in many cases, and also help serious issues like c. Diff infection. And misuse of antibiotics (any kind, oral, topical, etc)  will contribute to antibiotic resistant infections which is a SERIOUS problem.


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## jade-15 (Apr 24, 2014)

Lin, how do we get everyone to think like you? Haha.

From the CDC website:

Washing hands with soap and water is the best way to reduce the number of microbes on them in most situations. If soap and water are not available, use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol. Alcohol-based hand sanitizers can quickly reduce the number of microbes on hands in some situations, but sanitizers do not eliminate all types of germs.
Hand sanitizers are not as effective when hands are visibly dirty or greasy.

http://www.cdc.gov/handwashing/when-how-handwashing.html

Also has a link to 'read the science behind the recommendations', if you're interested.

ALSO from the CDC (now this makes me happy! :grin::grin
To date, studies have shown that there is no added health benefit for consumers (this does not include professionals in the healthcare setting) using soaps containing antibacterial ingredients compared with using plain soap.

(links to references if you are really keen)
http://www.cdc.gov/handwashing/show-me-the-science-handwashing.html


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## Nevada (Apr 24, 2014)

Cleaning hands & brushing treeth is mostly a mechanical action.
Colloidal Silver Soap is a Anti-Bacterial Soap.


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