# Analyzing soap performance



## SoapDaddy70 (Dec 30, 2020)

I started making soap at the end of September and have started using different bars from my first few recipes. I obviously have the recipes saved and can see the number differences in cleansing, conditioning, etc and how the recipes are different. My problem is that I really don't know how to analyze what I am feeling when using them. I can't say to myself.."This soap had more bubbles", "This soap feels more conditioning", "This one has creamier lather", "This soap is less drying". All of these first recipes have different combinations of Olive Oil, Coconut, Castor and then some have Shea Butter, some have Shea and Cocoa Butter, some just Shea and no Cocoa. To be honest they all feel the same to me  My more recent recipes have Palm Oil so I am hoping to see the difference between my soap with Palm and without. Sometimes I think people talk about soap the way wine drinkers talk about wine with a lot of buzz words just to sound fancy. How did other people out there learn how to critique a bar of soap in order to make adjustments to their recipes?


----------



## GemstonePony (Dec 30, 2020)

Have highly sensitive skin that wants you to be miserable.  J/K, but it does help if your skin is at least somewhat sensitive.

You don't say by how much your recipe changed, so it's possible the changes were too small to make a noticeable difference.

Bubbles and lather can be harder to judge without a side-by-side comparison over time. Especially if you have hard water, the lather for any one bar can vary from use to use as hard water deposit/water hardness messes with the lather unreliably, so you kind of have to keep track of the average for each bar in order to judge. As mentioned, minor differences in the recipe may be harder to perceive.

Dryness/moisturizing- if you've never had a bar that DIDN'T dry out your skin, this one's hard. I judge this based on if my skin feels as soft or softer 5 minutes after washing and drying it. If it doesn't I either consider it not ready, or a bathroom/kitchen hand soap only if the reverse effect is mild. If it leaves a greasy/oily feeling after being rinsed, I consider it an incompetent hand soap, and it fails up into bath bar or facial bar only status, depending on the level of failure. 

Tightness is a more immediate reaction for me, and I don't consider any bar that does it ready for use.


----------



## Megan (Dec 30, 2020)

GemstonePony said:


> Have highly sensitive skin that wants you to be miserable.  J/K, but it does help if your skin is at least somewhat sensitive.



~ Relatable~ 
Funny enough: I didn't even know my skin was sensitive till I started using homemade soap and basically all of my skin problems went away! Ha!

Lather is really the one thing that gets me sometimes. Like I can tell if a bar has bad lather....but as far as good lather...I'm like "it's bubbly!" without really knowing the degree or how it compares to other "bubbly" soaps. 

I would say, trying out other maker's soaps helps a lot. I know there haven't been any big trades on here recently, but FB has several groups you can join...or just purchasing several bars from different artisans. I have tried several of the "famous" soaper's soaps, and some local. 
I mean you won't get a feel of how recipe affects soap so much this way (except for the ingredient list), but you can get a good feeling of how different handmade soaps can be. I've found some definite bad (for me at least, no shade on any maker) ones out there and some pretty good ones too.


----------



## SoapDaddy70 (Dec 30, 2020)

It's weird because I do not think I have sensitive skin so I have not experienced any dryness or tightness with any of the bars I have been using so far. My issue is that it can be intimidating thinking about what makes a solid recipe. Not to mention all the different things you can add or not add. I feel like I can make a thousands tweaks and try a thousand different things and still get the same experience when using the soap. I guess I am hoping for that "aha" moment that lets me know that a particular recipe is one that I want to stick with. Not even remotely talking about selling. I just want to be able to say to myself..."I like this type of bar over another type" I guess that will come with experience. So many different things to try that it becomes overwhelming at times. Beer, aloe vera juice, goats milk, beeswax, honey....the list is endless. I just hope that at some point I will be able to tell what the differences are when using or not using certain ingredients. Sorry for the rant


----------



## KimW (Dec 30, 2020)

I'm with @GemstonePony.  If you're only making minor adjustments, it might be difficult to discern differences.  If you aren't prone to sensitive/irritated skin, then it may be well difficult to analyze a soap.  Also, as you're finding, analyzing soap is subjective.  Bubbles can be a little more objective as far as copious bubbles vs few bubbles, but even that depends greatly on the environment, like hardness of water, and method, like using just your hands or a wash rag.   Finally, and this is the really fun part, a soap's properties/qualities continue to change as it cures/ages over time.  A soap that's drying with low bubbles on week 6, can often turn out to be gentle with acceptable bubbles on month 6.

My like/dislike of a soap comes down to if it makes my skin feel tight or dry, but I have sensitive skin.  When that happens, I shelve it for a few months and try it again.

My hubby has yet to notice a difference in any of my soaps other than the fact that some last longer in the shower than others.  I've found that this also changes slightly as a bar cures/ages.

I do a strange test on new recipes that have appropriately cured for 4-6 weeks.  I wash a few dishes with the soap.  Rub a wet sponge on the soap, wash the dishes, rinse the dishes, allow to air dry.  This allows me to quickly see how clean it rinses (I do rub the dish as I am rinsing to help it along), how much soap scum it produces in the sink, and if it is drying to my hands.  It also lets me know if I like a scent I used without getting it all over my body in the shower.  Not a fan of Patchouli in soap (sad, right?)...just sayin'!


----------



## Zing (Dec 30, 2020)

I know what you're saying.  I have to rely on the numbers that I plug into soap calc.  From time to time I'll experiment with various ingredients and ratios but invariably when I use it, I totally forget what I did differently!

However, I do notice bubbles and lather quality.  When I use any butters, the lather is lotion-y to me.  My wife loves it, I don't.  Daddy here loves his bubbles!

I occasionally use the soap of a local soaper here whose ingredients are similar to mine.  In the shower, I immediately notice that my skin feels dryer and tighter after use so now I use it just as hand soap.

Before I started using my own soap, I just thought that I had particularly rashy skin and just lived with it and had tried every product and prescription.  Now my skin has never been healthier.  Not bragging but just stating that the difference compared to commercial brand soap is night and day.


----------



## Megan (Dec 30, 2020)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> I just want to be able to say to myself..."I like this type of bar over another type" I guess that will come with experience.



That's something that will develop over time...and will probably change as you learn more as well.

For instance, I thought I hated salt bars...because I started off doing 100% coconut oil salt bars. After browsing here and trying a shea/coconut and salt recipe...well, guess who has been using salt bars now for over a month exclusively? To be fair, if I didn't have a batch completely fail on me, I probably wouldn't have even really tried this recipe because I thought I just didn't like salt bars...but it's unsellable in its current state and I hate to waste.


----------



## AliOop (Dec 30, 2020)

I agree that only small tweaks aren't going to be noticeable to some people's skin. Maybe you can shift your experiments so that you are testing wildly different soaps, like high butter, then high lard, then high OO, etc.  

Just be sure to keep good notes. My very favorite soap EVER is one that I didn't document because I changed my plans mid-stream, and then didn't write down the changes. Of course, I didn't remember them when I tried the soap eight weeks later and loved it. I'm still trying to recreate that one!


----------



## hlee (Dec 30, 2020)

I understand this completely.  I know my soap is kind to my skin as the eczema on my legs is gone but I have used many recipes over the years and have a really hard time analyzing them. Usually the best I can do is decide if I like it or not.


----------



## TheGecko (Dec 31, 2020)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> I just want to be able to say to myself..."I like this type of bar over another type" I guess that will come with experience.



You really don't need "experience" to like one thing more than another. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a wine connoisseur, I can't sip a glass and tell you were the grapes were grown, or even what kind of grapes (except maybe white or red), or if the barrel had whiskey in it previously or is brand new, or whatever else...I just know whether whether I like it or not.

And it's kind of the same way with soap...unless you are making a huge change in your recipe from one soap to another (Red vs White or even Chablis vs Chardonnay), you're really not going to know the difference between say 20% Cocoa Butter vs Almond Butter or 10% Sweet Almond Oil vs Avocado Oil or 5% Argan Oil vs none.

I can make a good quality bar of soap with just four oils, but I choose to add in a couple of butters.  If I was only making soap for my household, I'd probably just stick with the four oils since I can get them all locally, but I want to sell my soaps and I want to sell more than just soaps, so the butters are good for other products.  So what it came down to was...what ingredients did I want to use?


----------



## SoapDaddy70 (Dec 31, 2020)

TheGecko said:


> You really don't need "experience" to like one thing more than another. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a wine connoisseur, I can't sip a glass and tell you were the grapes were grown, or even what kind of grapes (except maybe white or red), or if the barrel had whiskey in it previously or is brand new, or whatever else...I just know whether whether I like it or not.
> 
> And it's kind of the same way with soap...unless you are making a huge change in your recipe from one soap to another (Red vs White or even Chablis vs Chardonnay), you're really not going to know the difference between say 20% Cocoa Butter vs Almond Butter or 10% Sweet Almond Oil vs Avocado Oil or 5% Argan Oil vs none.
> 
> I can make a good quality bar of soap with just four oils, but I choose to add in a couple of butters.  If I was only making soap for my household, I'd probably just stick with the four oils since I can get them all locally, but I want to sell my soaps and I want to sell more than just soaps, so the butters are good for other products.  So what it came down to was...what ingredients did I want to use?


Thanks. This makes a lot of sense to me. I think when I am able to test one of my Palm Oil soaps I will be able to garner whether I like a Palm free soap better than one with Palm. All of my beginning recipes were all just small tweaks to basically the same few ingredients (Olive Oil, Coconut Oil, Shea Butter, Cocoa Butter, and Castor Oil) with a specialty oil like Hemp or Tamanu thrown in once or twice. I thinks it's all the additives or water replacements that I feel overwhelmed sometimes. For example, are soaps with a certain thing like beer or goats milk that much better than just using just regular distilled water. Sometimes I think people just add stuff because someone else did and/or they read something about it. Can someone really tell when using a soap which one was made with water or aloe vera juice or apple cider vinegar or any other thing like clay, silk, etc? I am just being the cynic that I am, so excuse me for being long winded.


----------



## AliOop (Dec 31, 2020)

@SoapDaddy70 those are all great questions to ask! 

Some people feel no difference at all with goat milk or colloidal oats; my skin really, really likes both of them. But since I feel no difference between powdered goat milk and fresh, I used the powdered bc it is cheaper and easier to use and store. Others just love the fresh milk, so that's what they use.

I also like to use either aloe vera juice (more bubbles) or vinegar (softer lather, faster unmolding, less soap scum) for my lye solution. But since I can't feel any difference between cheap white vinegar and expensive ACV, and since cheap white vinegar + sugar (or sorbitol) for bubbles is cheaper than aloe vera juice, that's what I choose to use most of the time. 

It would be a different story if I were marketing my soaps to folks who felt strongly about using ACV or fresh goat's milk because they believed it would benefit them more, or because they can genuinely feel the difference that I cannot feel. But since that's not my soaping lane, it would be a total waste of my money to use ACV or fresh goat's milk.

I'm sharing all that so you can see my thought process for how I picked the ingredients and additives for most of my soaps. Your thought process and final choices may be different. Bottom line, make the kind of soap you want to use, or the kind of soap you can sell to your target market, as fits your situation. 

In the meantime, enjoy the experimentation process without feeling pressure to buy more additives than you want to spend on (or find storage space for). You can make really great soap without spending tons of money on additives, micas, fragrances, molds, etc.  If those things are fun for you, great! But if they overwhelm or annoy you, don't sweat it. We've got all kinds of soapers here, and that's part of what makes this group so fun.


----------



## linne1gi (Dec 31, 2020)

Zing said:


> I know what you're saying.  I have to rely on the numbers that I plug into soap calc.  From time to time I'll experiment with various ingredients and ratios but invariably when I use it, I totally forget what I did differently!
> 
> However, I do notice bubbles and lather quality.  When I use any butters, the lather is lotion-y to me.  My wife loves it, I don't.  Daddy here loves his bubbles!
> 
> ...


I agree and most medical personnel disagree (doctors) - they all seem to have an affinity for Dove.  Really.  And I remember that Dove gave me most of my skin problems - itchy, hivey (sp) skin that never felt good no matter what lotion I used.   
Zing - have you tried sugar in your soaps?  Because putting sugar, particularly powdered sugar is a complete game changed.  Big bountiful bubbles and even if your coconut oil is low, you still get great big bubbles.


----------



## bookreader451 (Dec 31, 2020)

Since I started soaping I kept the ends in a container by the sink.  I found that if I use a few at a time, standing at the sink, wasting water (hubby's observation) I can see the differences in recipes. 

I always use a poof in the shower so all my soaps bubble, but I can tell by my winter leg dandruff, or lack thereof, which soap formula works best for me. I find that the soap I make with lard or tallow and less OO is more skin friendly to me. That is just my personal observation and each person is different.  

Overall I can say that since I started using other's and my own artisan soaps my hands and body are less dry that they used to be.


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 31, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> I agree and most medical personnel disagree (doctors) - they all seem to have an affinity for Dove.  Really.  And I remember that Dove gave me most of my skin problems - itchy, hivey (sp) skin that never felt good no matter what lotion I used.
> Zing - have you tried sugar in your soaps?  Because putting sugar, particularly powdered sugar is a complete game changed.  Big bountiful bubbles and even if your coconut oil is low, you still get great big bubbles.


Store bought powdered sugar can contain corn starch. I wonder how corn starch affects a soap? @linne1gi


----------



## linne1gi (Dec 31, 2020)

bookreader451 said:


> Since I started soaping I kept the ends in a container by the sink.  I found that if I use a few at a time, standing at the sink, wasting water (hubby's observation) I can see the differences in recipes.
> 
> I always use a poof in the shower so all my soaps bubble, but I can tell by my winter leg dandruff, or lack thereof, which soap formula works best for me. I find that the soap I make with lard or tallow and less OO is more skin friendly to me. That is just my personal observation and each person is different.
> 
> Overall I can say that since I started using other's and my own artisan soaps my hands and body are less dry that they used to be.


I know!  Before I started using real soap my skin was so dry, I was going through an entire bottle of lotion a week.


----------



## linne1gi (Dec 31, 2020)

Melysg25 said:


> Store bought powdered sugar can contain corn starch. I wonder how corn starch affects a soap? @linne1gi


Yes, I know that powdered sugar contains anti-caking ingredients.  I don’t exactly know why it works so well, but I’ve been using powdered sugar about 2 years now and granulated sugar for about 5 years before that.  Powdered sugar dissolves effortlessly into water and slows trace. And now since I use the combination of powdered sugar, salt, silk and citric acid, I have noticed how much more bubbles there are. I’ve only been using this combo about 6 months. I’m really impressed.


----------



## AliOop (Dec 31, 2020)

Some people use corn starch in their soaps on purpose. Most starches do contribute to both the amount and the "feel" of the lather, IME.


----------



## linne1gi (Dec 31, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Some people use corn starch in their soaps on purpose. Most starches do contribute to both the amount and the "feel" of the lather, IME.


Sure, Not much difference between cornstarch and clay.


----------



## Zing (Dec 31, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> I agree and most medical personnel disagree (doctors) - they all seem to have an affinity for Dove.  Really.  And I remember that Dove gave me most of my skin problems - itchy, hivey (sp) skin that never felt good no matter what lotion I used.
> Zing - have you tried sugar in your soaps?  Because putting sugar, particularly powdered sugar is a complete game changed.  Big bountiful bubbles and even if your coconut oil is low, you still get great big bubbles.


Several doctors told me to use Dove Sensitive which I used for years and years and it did nothing for me, and now when I occasionally use it, it feels caustic.
I will put sugar on my 2021 Soap Resolutions!  Thanks for the tip.  Always good to hear others' experiences.


----------



## Melysg25 (Dec 31, 2020)

linne1gi said:


> Yes, I know that powdered sugar contains anti-caking ingredients.  I don’t exactly know why it works so well, but I’ve been using powdered sugar about 2 years now and granulated sugar for about 5 years before that.  Powdered sugar dissolves effortlessly into water and slows trace. And now since I use the combination of powdered sugar, salt, silk and citric acid, I have noticed how much more bubbles there are. I’ve only been using this combo about 6 months. I’m really impressed.


Ok, just wondering. So much soapy tidbits, thank you! So much to learn. I did find a site on how to make homemade powdered sugar, just blending it with high speed vitamix type blender. No other additives in homemade version some I'm going that route. Until I learn more about starches and lather I will omit them in my homemade powdered sugar. I like to learn the why of adding stuff so I have the knowledge and thereby freedom to play with this and that, because I know why I'm doing it. Lol.  I've hesitated using granular sugar because I like additives that dissolve effortlessly. I'm glad to hear powdered sugar does just that. I don't want to bother with sorbitol because I rather use what I have on hand, regular sugar. I did end up buying, what looks like a lifetime amount, of tussah silk after reading all about it here on SMF. WILL be my next batch experiment of the new year!


----------



## TheGecko (Dec 31, 2020)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> Thanks. This makes a lot of sense to me. I think when I am able to test one of my Palm Oil soaps I will be able to garner whether I like a Palm free soap better than one with Palm.



Just MHO, but I'm guessing that you may not notice a difference is you are substituting as opposed to developing an entirely new recipe. With that said, an article from the National Center for Biotechnology Information (Commercially available alternatives to palm oil) has some interesting alternatives



> All of my beginning recipes were all just small tweaks to basically the same few ingredients (Olive Oil, Coconut Oil, Shea Butter, Cocoa Butter, and Castor Oil) with a specialty oil like Hemp or Tamanu thrown in once or twice.



I think that that is pretty SOP for the majority of soap makers. When I first started out, I had collected a boat load of different recipes, but it's not very cost effective to have 20 different oils and butters on hand. I started with a basic recipe of Olive, Coconut, Palm and Castor Oils (BrambleBerry's Beginning Soap Recipe). When it came time to order more supplies...I bought a dozen different oils and butters...substituting between 5% to 20%. In a discussion about the real-life benefits of using various oils and butters, I was told that with the exception of Castor Oil, adding less than 10% of any ingredient was a waste of money. Adding expensive ingredients of any amount was also a waste of money as the majority of any 'benefit' would 1) be destroyed by the Lye and 2) soap is a wash on/rinse off product and thus not on the skin long enough. In short, save the good stuff for leave on products like lotions.



> I thinks it's all the additives or water replacements that I feel overwhelmed sometimes. For example, are soaps with a certain thing like beer or goats milk that much better than just using just regular distilled water. Sometimes I think people just add stuff because someone else did and/or they read something about it. Can someone really tell when using a soap which one was made with water or aloe vera juice or apple cider vinegar or any other thing like clay, silk, etc? I am just being the cynic that I am, so excuse me for being long winded.



I can't speak to beer, AVJ, Tussah Silk and a bunch of other additives, but I can with Goat Milk, Kaolin Clay and Sodium Lactate.  I don't know if Goat Milk is "better" for the skin that soap make with Distilled Water...again, it's a wash on/rinse off product, but I can tell the difference between a bar of GMS and a bar of Regular Soap and that is less about it being "Goat" milk and probably just milk in general with its added fat and sugars.  I could probably get the same 'feel' if I increased my SuperFat and add sugar or honey.  And Lord knows it would be less of a hassle since I use fresh goat milk as opposed to powdered, but I enjoy the process...it's very zen...kind of like when I wind hanks of yarn into cakes.

With regard to the KC...some say it provides more 'slip', some say it helps to 'anchor' FOs...I don't know, it's soap, it's naturally 'slippery'. LOL As to the anchoring...the jury is still out on that one. I haven't tested it...maybe I'll do that this weekend. Make a small batch for my round cavity molds...add KO to one and not the other and put the soap on the shelf and check on it over the next year.

Last is the Sodium Lactate...I do find that it makes it a bit easier to unmold a lot of my soaps...especially during the Fall/Winter when it gets cold and damp. I could probably make my own or grab the salt shaker, but it's cheap enough and a gallon of the stuff lasts a long time.

To be honest, I don't get a lot of the additives I see folks putting into their soaps on YouTube...to me it's just more crap to buy, more crap to store, more crap to list on my label. Watched one gal add about a dozen different 'additives' and I kept thinking...is there any more for oils?

But the nice thing about making your own soap, it that you can experiment with stuff like that.  A half ounce of Tussah Silk is $2.98 at BB, an ounce of Collodial Oatmeal is a buck and a quarter, an ounce of KO is a buck, seventy-five and so on and so forth.


----------



## Catscankim (Dec 31, 2020)

@linne1gi do you add the powdered sugar at the same rate as granulated? I use granulated in all of my batches because it makes great bubbles. I am curious about the powdered sugar.


----------



## SoapSisters (Jan 1, 2021)

AliOop said:


> But since I can't feel any difference between cheap white vinegar and expensive ACV, and since cheap white vinegar + sugar (or sorbitol) for bubbles is cheaper than aloe vera juice, that's what I choose to use most of the time.
> 
> [/QUOTE]


How do you dissolve the sugar? In the vinegar? I recently used white vinegar in a high OO soap with lovely results, but I didn't add sugar. I use sugar in my other recipes but dissolve in distilled water.


----------



## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 1, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Just MHO, but I'm guessing that you may not notice a difference is you are substituting as opposed to developing an entirely new recipe. With that said, an article from the National Center for Biotechnology Information (Commercially available alternatives to palm oil) has some interesting alternatives
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the lengthy and well thought out response. My last few recipes have been more simple than what I was doing at the beginning. When I start using my palm oil soaps I will be able to make an informed decision if I want to continued using palm or not. Thanks again.


----------



## Basil (Jan 1, 2021)

AliOop said:


> @SoapDaddy70 those are all great questions to ask!
> 
> Bottom line, make the kind of soap you want to use, or the kind of soap you can sell to your target market, as fits your situation.
> 
> We've got all kinds of soapers here, and that's part of what makes this group so fun.


@SoapDaddy70 you asked so many of the questions I’ve asked myself and as I continue to play and test and ask questions on this forum and read others input on many other questions, I’m beginning to understand what type of soap I like. Allioop brings it back home to me when she says “bottom line....” and “all kinds of soapers here”. I absolutely love how everyone on this forum is so encouraging and take the time to support, knowing many of them really don’t need to. The experience on this forum is mind boggling to me. Sharing it is even more so.


----------



## AliOop (Jan 1, 2021)

SoapSisters said:


> How do you dissolve the sugar? In the vinegar? I recently used white vinegar in a high OO soap with lovely results, but I didn't add sugar. I use sugar in my other recipes but dissolve in distilled water.


Yes, I dissolve it in the vinegar, along with the sodium citrate that I use as a chelator.  You can also choose to dissolve it in a bit of extra water if you prefer.


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Jan 1, 2021)

I’ve tried many, many different recipes, with various hard fats (tallow, lard, butters, palm and soy wax alone or in combination), liquid oils (mostly olive, HO sunflower, Avocado or RBO), CO ranging from 10-30%, with and without castor oil, sugar, vinegar, aloe juice, salt, goat milk, cow cream, oat milk, clay, etc. After almost two years of experimenting, I know that I like handmade soap  .  I also learned that what I like the most in a soap aligns pretty well with particular ranges for the major groups of fatty acids.  For me, this is 14-20% lauric + myristic, 25-31% stearic + palmitic and 11-15% linoleic.  These ranges work well for me, almost regardless of what fats I use to get the profiles, except that after almost two years I still don’t have a palm-based recipe that I love.  The hard fats give me creaminess, but if I go above above 31% in my recipes, the soap feels too hard in my hands. The linoleic gives my recipes some “slip” and bigger bubbles without adding sugar or a lot of coconut oil. Unless I’m making a high OO soap, I think of the oleic FA as a filler. I’ve made soap with and without castor, but I don’t feel it changes my recipes much. My batches made with sugar make more/bigger bubbles and the animal milks add creaminess in my recipes, but for the most part, the qualities of my soaps align most closely with the FA profiles.  When I add extra things now, it’s mostly for visual or label appeal.  Since I don’t give any soap away without a label, the huge job of labeling test batches has forced me to think hard about whether or not I need any particular ingredient in the soap.

ETA: I forgot to mention that chelators are another additive I’m sold on.  Aside from keeping DOS at bay, I get better bubbles with a chelator in the recipe.  We have a water softener, but our water still has high TDS.  I also use a low SF (2-3%) and have no problems with soap scum.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 2, 2021)

I will make a vast generalisation here (*ducks for cover*) and say that men prefer more bubbles and are not quite as sensitive to drying soap as women are.  I like my soap to leave a soft lotion-y film on my skin so that they don't feel as dry.  My son and partner both complain about this and say that it doesn't 'rinse off' properly.  Considering how often I wash my hands and analyse how lovely and creamy the lather may be, or how beautiful scent is, and also that I rarely use hand cream, I would much prefer to have use a soap that leaves my hands feeling 'damp' than have big bubbles that rinse off dry.
There - I think I've explained it well enough, let me know if it doesn't make sense.


----------



## hlee (Jan 2, 2021)

To really do it right you would need a soap " standard" to compare the different qualities of your soaps.
You would need a  soap  that is acceptable to you that you would use as the "standard ""and  you would need to know the composition of the "standard "soap. Then you  test soaps side by side as you modify and make  changes.
As you expand recipes you can also make more " standards" say one for palm soaps or one for lard soaps, etc.  You would have a checklist for both good qualities and bad  that you would note with your side by side soap comparisons. This is how it is done with food , etc. and probably the best way to notice the little changes.


----------



## Zing (Jan 2, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I will make a vast generalisation here (*ducks for cover*) and say that men prefer more bubbles and are not quite as sensitive to drying soap as women are.  I like my soap to leave a soft lotion-y film on my skin so that they don't feel as dry.


Like I always say, Daddy loves the bubbles!


----------



## Basil (Jan 2, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I will make a vast generalisation here (*ducks for cover*) and say that men prefer more bubbles and are not quite as sensitive to drying soap as women are.  I like my soap to leave a soft lotion-y film on my skin so that they don't feel as dry.  My son and partner both complain about this and say that it doesn't 'rinse off' properly.  Considering how often I wash my hands and analyse how lovely and creamy the lather may be, or how beautiful scent is, and also that I rarely use hand cream, I would much prefer to have use a soap that leaves my hands feeling 'damp' than have big bubbles that rinse off dry.
> There - I think I've explained it well enough, let me know if it doesn't make sense.


I’m right with you @KiwiMoose. I used to think it was all the bubbles I liked until I started noticing the bubbles weren’t what made my skin feel good after the shower. I’m gravitating to the creamy now. My husband likes creamy lather and scent - he’s a burn victim and he has some parts of his body that are sensitive and tight. He really likes @Zany_in_CO no slime Castile. Even with his skin he likes the peppermint EO and it gives him no problems. He can’t use Shea butter as it causes blisters. Go figure ...


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 2, 2021)

Basil said:


> I’m right with you @KiwiMoose. I used to think it was all the bubbles I liked until I started noticing the bubbles weren’t what made my skin feel good after the shower. I’m gravitating to the creamy now. My husband likes creamy lather and scent - he’s a burn victim and he has some parts of his body that are sensitive and tight. He really likes @Zany_in_CO no slime Castile. Even with his skin he likes the peppermint EO and it gives him no problems. He can’t use Shea butter as it causes blisters. Go figure ...


Nut allergy?


----------



## Melysg25 (Jan 2, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I will make a vast generalisation here (*ducks for cover*) and say that men prefer more bubbles and are not quite as sensitive to drying soap as women are.  I like my soap to leave a soft lotion-y film on my skin so that they don't feel as dry.  My son and partner both complain about this and say that it doesn't 'rinse off' properly.  Considering how often I wash my hands and analyse how lovely and creamy the lather may be, or how beautiful scent is, and also that I rarely use hand cream, I would much prefer to have use a soap that leaves my hands feeling 'damp' than have big bubbles that rinse off dry.
> There - I think I've explained it well enough, let me know if it doesn't make sense.


I prefer the creamy lotion lather for my bath bars but for hand soap, that "damp" lotion feeling annoys me. I keep washing and washing to get it off. Though when I wash my hands I generally apply some type of moisturizer afterwards. Just what I'm used to. I don't like residue after a good hand wash. Lol. Call me kooky.. For my hands I like a squeaky clean big bubble no fluff hand soap. Not saying I would wash my hands with 100% coconut oil soap cause that would just make them raw, but I get your son and partner not wanting a lotion feel for hand soap.

"Don't shoot just my IMO, probably not worth 2 pennies rubbed together."


----------



## Basil (Jan 2, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Nut allergy?


No, he eats nuts, peanut butter, etc all the time...


----------



## ravenscents (Jan 2, 2021)

Megan said:


> ~ Relatable~
> Funny enough: I didn't even know my skin was sensitive till I started using homemade soap and basically all of my skin problems went away! Ha!
> 
> Lather is really the one thing that gets me sometimes. Like I can tell if a bar has bad lather....but as far as good lather...I'm like "it's bubbly!" without really knowing the degree or how it compares to other "bubbly" soaps.
> ...


I always buy others soap when I can. I keep the label to analyze the recipe.  I look for things different in the performance than mine.
I have very oily skin, so I’m really not the best judge.


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Jan 2, 2021)

As I understand it, bubbles do not automatically equate to high cleansing.  Coconut oil soap bubbles profusely because it dissolves easily and is very cleansing because there are a lot of short chain fatty acid soap molecules in solution when in use. Sugars (and glycerin) enhance bubbles because they increase the surface tension of the bubbles, which allows them to grow bigger without breaking.  Chelators, like sodium citrate and edta, enhance bubbles because they keep the dissolved soap from complexing with hard water minerals.  Why the addition of oils that are high in linoleic fatty acid, like RBO, hemp and grapeseed, leads to bigger bubbles in a balanced recipe is still a mystery to me, especially since we know that soaps made with these oils at 100% do not make great lather.


----------



## Basil (Jan 2, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Why the addition of oils that are high in linoleic fatty acid, like RBO, hemp and grapeseed, leads to bigger bubbles in a balanced recipe is still a mystery to me, especially since we know that soaps made with these oils at 100% do not make great lather.


Thank you for bringing that up as I was wondering the same yesterday. In celebration of Az becoming cannabis legal recreationally, I’m playing with  hemp oil again in some recipes.


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Jan 2, 2021)

I honestly think that most people, other than soapmakers and those close to them, would find most balanced recipes to be a big improvement over commercial soap.  That being said, most of the comments I get are about creaminess in my animal fat soaps and bubbles and silkiness In my soy wax and RBO soap.  A lot of my tweaking over the last year has been about achieving recipes that trace slowly for the FA profiles I like, while also keeping the base color as close to white as possible.  With RBO at 25-30% and soy wax at 20%, I am always going to have an off colored base, but I’ve learned to live with it because I really, really like the soap that recipe makes.


----------



## linne1gi (Jan 2, 2021)

Catscankim said:


> @linne1gi do you add the powdered sugar at the same rate as granulated? I use granulated in all of my batches because it makes great bubbles. I am curious about the powdered sugar.


I master batch my lye solution 1:1.  And I usually use a 2:1 water to lye ratio.  So the 1st part of the water I need is already part of the master batched lye, the 2nd part is where I add powdered sugar, salt, silk, citric acid and extra lye.  I sometimes use other liquids besides water; coconut milk, oat milk, aloe juice, etc. (not usually goats milk as I add that in powder form).  And yes I add powdered sugar at the same rate as granular sugar (1 teaspoon per pound of oils) - it dissolves almost instantly, and tends to slow trace a little.


----------



## linne1gi (Jan 2, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Just MHO, but I'm guessing that you may not notice a difference is you are substituting as opposed to developing an entirely new recipe. With that said, an article from the National Center for Biotechnology Information (Commercially available alternatives to palm oil) has some interesting alternatives
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did an experiment a while back which I posted on FB, maybe here, I don't remember.  I was making soap dough and had enough batter left for 2 soaps - so one soap I added blood orange essential oil to and colored it green, the other soap, I added blood orange essential oil which has been "marinating" in kaolin clay for hours and colored it pink.  6 weeks later, the green soap literally had no scent at all, while the pink soap (with the marinated clay) smelled terrifically of blood orange essential oil.   I have been using kaolin clay to anchor my scent for years, now I have some evidence to back it up.   This was just my experiment, not a controlled experiment.   But I am going to continue using kaolin clay to anchor my scents.


----------



## soapysarah (Jan 2, 2021)

Basil said:


> I’m right with you @KiwiMoose. I used to think it was all the bubbles I liked until I started noticing the bubbles weren’t what made my skin feel good after the shower. I’m gravitating to the creamy now. My husband likes creamy lather and scent - he’s a burn victim and he has some parts of his body that are sensitive and tight. He really likes @Zany_in_CO no slime Castile. Even with his skin he likes the peppermint EO and it gives him no problems. He can’t use Shea butter as it causes blisters. Go figure ...



Completely off-topic; have you heard of Scarwork?  This was initiated by Sharon Wheeler in Seattle and is now taught all over the world; it can help the result of burns by re-integrating tissue.


----------



## linne1gi (Jan 2, 2021)

As I understand it's a form of massage that helps to improve scar tissue.


----------



## soapysarah (Jan 2, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> As I understand it's a form of massage that helps to improve scar tissue.



Hi, linne1gi, it isn’t really a form of massage but it does utilise touch but very gently.  Sharon Wheeler has developed lots of different techniques over the years (I was trained in Scar and Bonework by Sharon) for most situations.  I am also trained in massage and there is a big difference.  Scarwork can permanently change fascia and the appearance and feel of scars.  One of my clients saved her toes from being amputated by having Scarwork.


----------



## linne1gi (Jan 2, 2021)

Impressive!


----------



## soapysarah (Jan 2, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> Impressive!



Yes, it is.  And that is no exaggeration.


----------



## KimW (Jan 2, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> I did an experiment a while back which I posted on FB, maybe here, I don't remember.  I was making soap dough and had enough batter left for 2 soaps - so one soap I added blood orange essential oil to and colored it green, the other soap, I added blood orange essential oil which has been "marinating" in kaolin clay for hours and colored it pink.  6 weeks later, the green soap literally had no scent at all, while the pink soap (with the marinated clay) smelled terrifically of blood orange essential oil.   I have been using kaolin clay to anchor my scent for years, now I have some evidence to back it up.   This was just my experiment, not a controlled experiment.   But I am going to continue using kaolin clay to anchor my scents.


Great tip!  Thank you for sharing.  Now to find that kaolin clay!


----------



## Becky1024 (Jan 2, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> As I understand it, bubbles do not automatically equate to high cleansing.  Coconut oil soap bubbles profusely because it dissolves easily and is very cleansing because there are a lot of short chain fatty acid soap molecules in solution when in use. Sugars (and glycerin) enhance bubbles because they increase the surface tension of the bubbles, which allows them to grow bigger without breaking.  Chelators, like sodium citrate and edta, enhance bubbles because they keep the dissolved soap from complexing with hard water minerals.  Why the addition of oils that are high in linoleic fatty acid, like RBO, hemp and grapeseed, leads to bigger bubbles in a balanced recipe is still a mystery to me, especially since we know that soaps made with these oils at 100% do not make great lather.


Mojack Bay I agree with you that chelators increase bubbles. In fact I can get a very nice bubbly bar with adding 2% sodium citrate to a 100% lard soap. I think I can help you out with the linoleic acid and why they bubble well. Linoleic acid is polyunsaturated, each fatty acid has 2 double bonds. The double bonds are slightly more hydrophilic (water loving) than the single bonds. It makes the oils that are high in linoleic acid slightly more soluble than say strearic acid which only has single bonds. It’s the slight solubility that makes linoleic acid bubbly.


----------



## linne1gi (Jan 2, 2021)

Becky1024 said:


> Mojack Bay I agree with you that chelators increase bubbles. In fact I can get a very nice bubbly bar with adding 2% sodium citrate to a 100% lard soap. I think I can help you out with the linoleic acid and why they bubble well. Linoleic acid is polyunsaturated, each fatty acid has 2 double bonds. The double bonds are slightly more hydrophilic (water loving) than the single bonds. It makes the oils that are high in linoleic acid slightly more soluble than say strearic acid which only has single bonds. It’s the slight solubility that makes linoleic acid bubbly.


Two things I didn’t put together. Thank you.


----------



## Peachy Clean Soap (Jan 3, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> I agree and most medical personnel disagree (doctors) - they all seem to have an affinity for Dove.  Really.  And I remember that Dove gave me most of my skin problems - itchy, hivey (sp) skin that never felt good no matter what lotion I used.
> Zing - have you tried sugar in your soaps?  Because putting sugar, particularly powdered sugar is a complete game changed.  Big bountiful bubbles and even if your coconut oil is low, you still get great big bubbles.


How much powder sugar do you use & is it add'ed to oils before lye? id love to try it' currently i'm using honey or  molasses one tea ppo depending on the soap i'm making to increase the bubbles.


----------



## linne1gi (Jan 3, 2021)

Peachy Clean Soap said:


> How much powder sugar do you use & is it add'ed to oils before lye? id love to try it' currently i'm using honey or  molasses one tea ppo depending on the soap i'm making to increase the bubbles.


Sugar is sugar. I use 1 teaspoon (PPO)  because that is the recommended rate for sugar. Powdered sugar dissolves instantly and also relaxes the batter giving more workable time.  I add it to distilled water and make sure it has fully dissolved before adding lye. I add the lye solution to the melted oils as we all do.


----------



## Peachy Clean Soap (Jan 3, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> Sugar is sugar. I use 1 teaspoon (PPO)  because that is the recommended rate for sugar. Powdered sugar dissolves instantly and also relaxes the batter giving more workable time.  I add it to distilled water and make sure it has fully dissolved before adding lye. I add the lye solution to the melted oils as we all do.


Thx so much


----------



## Mobjack Bay (Jan 4, 2021)

Becky1024 said:


> Mojack Bay I agree with you that chelators increase bubbles. In fact I can get a very nice bubbly bar with adding 2% sodium citrate to a 100% lard soap. I think I can help you out with the linoleic acid and why they bubble well. Linoleic acid is polyunsaturated, each fatty acid has 2 double bonds. The double bonds are slightly more hydrophilic (water loving) than the single bonds. It makes the oils that are high in linoleic acid slightly more soluble than say strearic acid which only has single bonds. It’s the slight solubility that makes linoleic acid bubbly.


Mystery solved! Thank you!


----------



## Basil (May 14, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> I’ve tried many, many different recipes, with various hard fats (tallow, lard, butters, palm and soy wax alone or in combination), liquid oils (mostly olive, HO sunflower, Avocado or RBO), CO ranging from 10-30%, with and without castor oil, sugar, vinegar, aloe juice, salt, goat milk, cow cream, oat milk, clay, etc. After almost two years of experimenting, I know that I like handmade soap  .  I also learned that what I like the most in a soap aligns pretty well with particular ranges for the major groups of fatty acids.  For me, this is 14-20% lauric + myristic, 25-31% stearic + palmitic and 11-15% linoleic.  These ranges work well for me, almost regardless of what fats I use to get the profiles, except that after almost two years I still don’t have a palm-based recipe that I love.  The hard fats give me creaminess, but if I go above above 31% in my recipes, the soap feels too hard in my hands. The linoleic gives my recipes some “slip” and bigger bubbles without adding sugar or a lot of coconut oil. Unless I’m making a high OO soap, I think of the oleic FA as a filler. I’ve made soap with and without castor, but I don’t feel it changes my recipes much. My batches made with sugar make more/bigger bubbles and the animal milks add creaminess in my recipes, but for the most part, the qualities of my soaps align most closely with the FA profiles.  When I add extra things now, it’s mostly for visual or label appeal.  Since I don’t give any soap away without a label, the huge job of labeling test batches has forced me to think hard about whether or not I need any particular ingredient in the soap.
> 
> ETA: I forgot to mention that chelators are another additive I’m sold on.  Aside from keeping DOS at bay, I get better bubbles with a chelator in the recipe.  We have a water softener, but our water still has high TDS.  I also use a low SF (2-3%) and have no problems with soap scum.


I now I'm replying to an older post, but as I've been reading through these again, your pecentages caught my eye. I've mangaged to get my palmitic and stearic over 30, but I still gravitate to the 25-29 %. My linoleic is also higher as yours and the lauric and myristic hover around 13-14%. I'm thinking what the heck is wrong with me, but after reading your post, I've figured out I must like those ranges LOL. Thanks my octopus friend for that!


----------



## linne1gi (May 14, 2021)

Basil said:


> I now I'm replying to an older post, but as I've been reading through these again, your pecentages caught my eye. I've mangaged to get my palmitic and stearic over 30, but I still gravitate to the 25-29 %. My linoleic is also higher as yours and the lauric and myristic hover around 13-14%. I'm thinking what the heck is wrong with me, but after reading your post, I've figured out I must like those ranges LOL. Thanks my octopus friend for that!


The only thing I would add to this is that Linoleic & Linolenic acid numbers are best kept below 15, or you risk DOS.


----------



## MickeyRat (May 14, 2021)

I have to confess that I have skin that is impervious to almost anything.  Though I did have a nasty experience with lye once.  Back in the day I had my hands in gasoline for about an hour cleaning a carburetor with a toothbrush with no ill affects.  I have to go by what the calculators say or what I hear from other people.  Nice to see I'm not alone.


----------



## Arimara (May 15, 2021)

Zing said:


> Several doctors told me to use Dove Sensitive which I used for years and years and it did nothing for me, and now when I occasionally use it, it feels caustic.
> I will put sugar on my 2021 Soap Resolutions!  Thanks for the tip.  Always good to hear others' experiences.


I stopped using that soap for my daughter after my sister confirmed that it was responsible for burning my daughter's skin up (it had burned my sister's face and her skin is nowhere near as sensitive). I still won't use a handmade soap for her yet but her skin is mostly good with Cetaphil.


----------



## Johnez (May 15, 2021)

So much soapy knowledge in this thread.





Becky1024 said:


> Mojack Bay I agree with you that chelators increase bubbles. In fact I can get a very nice bubbly bar with adding 2% sodium citrate to a 100% lard soap. I think I can help you out with the linoleic acid and why they bubble well. Linoleic acid is polyunsaturated, each fatty acid has 2 double bonds. The double bonds are slightly more hydrophilic (water loving) than the single bonds. It makes the oils that are high in linoleic acid slightly more soluble than say strearic acid which only has single bonds. It’s the slight solubility that makes linoleic acid bubbly.


----------



## Zing (May 15, 2021)

Arimara said:


> I stopped using that soap for my daughter after my sister confirmed that it was responsible for burning my daughter's skin up (it had burned my sister's face and her skin is nowhere near as sensitive). I still won't use a handmade soap for her yet but her skin is mostly good with Cetaphil.


Yikes-kers!  I was exaggerating for me, Dove just leaves me feeling super dry.


----------



## Arimara (May 15, 2021)

Zing said:


> Yikes-kers!  I was exaggerating for me, Dove just leaves me feeling super dry.


It went downhill at some point. It used to actually be good, I remember.


----------

