# Stand off between me and Soap paste



## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 15, 2015)

Well, I thought I had it but still the soap I am cooking (last night for 7 hours!) is still refusing to morph in to a clear gel.  In fact, last night I decided, as a last ditch attempt to put the pan in the oven... As i went along I decided also to test the core temp of the paste... I was only getting at best 140 degree F.  When I ramped the oven up to 130 degrees C which is well over 200 F suddenly  it looked like it might turn and core temp was 165 F.  However, here are the things that I did with this batch that I'm questioning:

- What should the core temp of the soap in the pot be?
- I whisked on the advise of Failor but when I turned the paste out it is a solid lump of cloudy soap - is that the consistency it should be?  I'm wondering if the whisk introduced more air than it should and perhaps slowed the saponification process?
- The trace was really good (read volcano), and I started to whisk for 2-3 mins every 20 minutes... would that cool the paste too much?  How long should I whisk/stir for?
- Should the paste resemble kneaded bread dough at any point?

pH with pH meter after 7 hours cooking was needless to say around 9.5!

Lots of questions I know but I would really appreciate some help on this.


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## Susie (Feb 15, 2015)

This is exactly why I stopped trying to make soap the Failor way.  

Not every recipe goes through every stage.  That clear gel is the most elusive.  I have had the same recipe not go through the same stages on subsequent batches.

There is no need to cook any paste 7 hours.  After 1.5 hours, cooking longer is futile if it is zap free.(Did you zap test?)

The paste can, indeed, resemble kneaded bread.  What was your recipe?(including superfat)

9.5 is a perfectly acceptable pH for liquid soap.

While I have the utmost respect for Catherine Failor for being the person who paved the way for home made liquid soaps(and was kind enough to put it in book format for everyone to use), we have lye calculators now that work perfectly fine.  So, there is no reason to have to go through the "whole lye heavy then neutralize" methodology.  And we can cut half the steps out that she used.  Including the whole cooking issue.  It is just not necessary.  She has some good oil blends that I use and run through a lye calculator for myself, and I still give some of her sequestering instructions out, I no longer make liquid soap the way the book says.  Lots of people give up making liquid soap when their results don't come out like she says after cooking for hours/days.   We have better/easier ways to make soap now, truly!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2015)

Resounding, enthusiastic support to what Susie said! 

I'm not a LS expert, but Susie and Irish Lass are. And they're champions at helping people understand LS making doesn't have to be a gritty test of endurance and patience. I find it painful to read how people cook their paste for hours and hours ... or even days ... and agonize over the pH and neutralizing and all that.

Start with these tutorials:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

And then read:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=51947
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=48889
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47822
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=45025
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47634


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## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 15, 2015)

Thanks for your feedback everyone.  I think there are some factors I have discovered in my test batch today that are causing the problems:

- overheating the pot when bringing the mix to trace.  I followed Melinda Coss's example of not heating it during trace (only before - both oils and of course the lye is naturally heated).
- The trace I got this time round was much more fine... there was none of this crumbly bread appearance.  It took much longer but it was definitely much finer.
- I think I could have continued quite a bit longer with the trace, but I was going by Melinda's and various other UK specialists version of trace.

In the final test today I stopped cooking at 4 hours.  pH was 9.5 and the colour on dissolving was blonder than normal... less yellow and definitely less cloudy than the previous batches.  I think next test I will go for a very good and heavy trace (without heat underneath) and then cook again for 3-4 hours.  Crossing fingers that the next batch will be even better!

Whoops, forgot the recipe:  It is 0% superfat, using no lye excess (not allowed here in the UK for commercial production):

Sunflower: 250g
Olive: 250g
Coconut: 250g
Palm: 30g

Potassium Carbonate: 15.6g (yes I added this back in)
Potassium Hydroxide: 167.5g
Water 273g (35%)


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## Susie (Feb 15, 2015)

I am not sure what you want me/us to tell you.  You seem to be doing the same thing again and expecting different results.  

One question, however, you are selling liquid soap???


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## Seawolfe (Feb 15, 2015)

Did you read the links that DeAnn gave you? Solutions are there. Susie is right, it doesn't help to ask for advice when you keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.


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## shunt2011 (Feb 15, 2015)

I agree with Susie.  If you keep doing the same thing you will get the same result.  Please read the links DeeAnna posted as there is awesome information and it will also make your LS life so much easier. You don't need to cook it that long if at all  Also, you never responded to the question of are you zap testing the soap.  That is the easiest/only way to see if your soap is done.  

Good luck to you!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2015)

Here are specific answers to your questions:

"...- What should the core temp of the soap in the pot be?

Whatever it happens to be. There is no specific temperature that LS must be. If the batter is cooler than usual, the saponification reaction will be slower. If warmer than usual, it will be faster. Saponification is a fairly forgiving process once one gets to a stable emulsion. It's we humans who have expectations that it is a far more black-and-white process than it really is.

"...I whisked on the advise of Failor but when I turned the paste out it is a solid lump of cloudy soap - is that the consistency it should be?

It can be, but it doesn't have to be. It is certainly an appearance that I've seen at times, but it depends on the recipe and your method. Not every LS recipe goes through all the "usual" stages explained by the "experts". The key events are the point of stable emulsion and the point at which the paste is zap free (no excess alkali). What happens between those points as far as what you do to the batter and what the batter looks like will vary.

"...The trace was really good (read volcano), and I started to whisk for 2-3 mins every 20 minutes... would that cool the paste too much?

Not really. The rate of saponification is dependent on temperature, but saponification will happen regardless of what you do within the range of temperatures normal to the kitchen or soap workshop. Don't wear yourself out! If you had really reached trace, you didn't need to stir anymore. Trace = stable emulsion = stop mixing. Cover it up and walk away.

"... How long should I whisk/stir for?

Until you get to a stable emulsion, then stop. The first two tutorials I reference above explain matters much better than I can. 

Tip: If you really are just using a hand whisk, you may want to invest in a stick blender. You'll get to a stable emulsion much faster. 

"...Should the paste resemble kneaded bread dough at any point?

It can. It has for me a few times, but others see different textures and consistencies. Again, it depends on the recipe and the method you use.


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## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 16, 2015)

Hi Susie, and everyone.  Firstly, be reassured that I have not been making the same recipe with the same method over and over again in exactly the same way - and as you say expecting the same result.  The things i have varied are: length of trace time, heating or not during trace, stirring frequency during cooking (15-20) and length of stir, maintaining higher or lower temp during cooking (from 145-180 dF), method of stirring, spoon/whisk. Surely this represents variation?

Also, the recipe I'm using is well suited to liquid soap according to all the books/forums and the lye calculation has been done online and by hand (using UK regulated cals with no lye excess - non-negotiable).

The only thing I can think of that is throwing it all is the Potassium Hydroxide.  It sounds like you are all using the lye calculators that factor in the max 10% lye impurities/water in the Potassium and by my calculations that comes to between 5-10g more KOH per 500g oils.  This I'm sure would solve my problem, however, here there is no point me testing with this amount if legally I'm not eventually allowed to use this method commercially... I suppose something for Scott Grainger.  Perhaps I should try the excess method just to prove the point?

If there is anyone from the UK here who has the Cosmetic Safety Assessment and could advise that would be great!

Oh, and I'm not selling the liquid soap to anyone, as I'm clearly still in development phase!  I do sell bar soap to stores in the UK - including Fortnum and Mason so am aware that things must be 'right' before marketing.


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## Susie (Feb 16, 2015)

CarolinePJCoram said:


> Hi Susie, and everyone.  Firstly, be reassured that I have not been making the same recipe with the same method over and over again in exactly the same way - and as you say expecting the same result.  The things i have varied are: length of trace time, heating or not during trace, stirring frequency during cooking (15-20) and length of stir, maintaining higher or lower temp during cooking (from 145-180 dF), method of stirring, spoon/whisk. Surely this represents variation?
> 
> *Not really variation there.  And you are either not reading what we are really saying or...you just want to do what you want to do regardless of what we say.  Things you have varied make no difference whatsoever if you are going to stick with the same recipe.  Trace time , stirring length, temperature during heating, stirring method matter little except to take more time or less time.  Your outcomes will be the same with all of these "variations".*
> 
> ...



*Thank goodness for that!*


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## Susie (Feb 16, 2015)

I hate to repeat myself, but the problem is your *recipe*.


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## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 16, 2015)

Susie, thank you for your kind advise.  I clearly am a complete novice and did not understand that the nuances of trace, heat, stirring etc do not matter ... and it seems that it is the ingredients that do.  I will try making with more lye as stipulated on SoapCalc as that seems the only option left to me... Thank you so much for your input, it is greatly appreciated.


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## Susie (Feb 16, 2015)

Please try using this soap calculator:

http://summerbeemeadow.com/sites/all/sbm_calc_input/calc_input_page_1.1.html

It accounts for 94% KOH purity without having to check any boxes, and yields an easier paste to work with.  Please use one of the methods linked by DeeAnna.  I hate having to tell you to throw out everything you learned to do to make liquid soap, but until you see how it goes when you try our recipes and methods, you just won't *know* how much better and easier it can be.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 16, 2015)

"...there is no point me testing with this amount if legally I'm not eventually allowed to use this method commercially... Perhaps I should try the excess method just to prove the point?..."

If I use a soap recipe calculator that is set for the actual purity of KOH that I am using AND I set the lye discount for 0% to +3% -- exactly what Susie's and Irish Lass' tutorials advise -- that is most emphatically NOT a "lye excess" method.

Absolutely no one trying to help you in this thread and nothing in their tutorials says one peep about using a lye EXCESS. In fact Susie and Irish Lass have repeatedly explained exactly why one does not need to formulate LS with a lye excess. Your belief that we are advising a lye-heavy method is incorrect. 

If you do not know the purity of your KOH, you are shooting in the dark. Get the analysis of purity from your supplier and use it!

Here are two calcs used by many people the world around -- Summerbeemeadow using 94% pure KOH, and Soapcalc using either 90% or 100% pure KOH. Pick the one that is closest to the purity of the KOH you are actually using. Or use your own preferred calc set to the correct purity for your KOH. Set the superfat at 0% to 3%. Finally, follow Irish Lass' or Susie's tutorial to make excellent LS without the hassle.


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## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 17, 2015)

I totally hear what you're saying DeeAnna and Susie.  Before speaking to you I spoke to a Soap chemical supplier who said that my Safety Assessor probably would not accept the 'correction' for 5-10% impurities and I have since emailed the assessor to try and clarify this issue.  This is the problem that I have been trying to get to the bottom of.  Problem here is that if you do anything off the book you would be prosecuted if selling commercially.  I'm now trying to find out if the assessor accepts the calculation factoring in the impurities.  I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear the first time round as it is pretty obvious that the problem is there is just not enough KOH in the mix. Pure (near 100% KOH is available, but it is insanely expensive.


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## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 21, 2015)

Hi Everyone.  Well, I did the recipe again today using the soap calc you recommended and was really disappointed to see yet again the same clouding on dilution even with 5% more KOH flakes.  How could this be happening?!  I got a 5 litre container of deionized water yesterday to dissolve powders to calibrate my pH meter so I thought I would try to dissolved a 10g amount in 20g of this water and do the same with the spring water I had been using.  Wow, what a difference!  Spring water - cloudy, deionized water - crystal clear!  Remind me not to drink the bottled spring water from the supermarket again...


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## Susie (Feb 21, 2015)

OK, I understand what you are saying about the "corrections", but my question is this:  Is the assessor checking the product, or the mathematical process?  Or both?

If they are checking the product, you are going to have no problem.  Your soap will not be lye heavy.  If they are checking the process, then you may have issues.

I am so glad you figured out what the problem was!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2015)

You have not been using distilled water to dilute???? Oh...... 

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD


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## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 22, 2015)

A very well respected soap maker here in the UK said either distilled or Spring. Just following her recipe. I do not have access to the chemical breakdown of this branded Highland Spring water so was not to know that it would create a chemical reaction in the soap.  Neither am I a chemist.

Oh and when I diluted the last batch of soap (without using the US soap calc, and the UK recommended calcs) with distilled water it also came out perfectly clear.  Susie was right, it was a component of the recipe... but not the one foreseen on here.


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## Dorymae (Feb 22, 2015)

I'm sorry no one caught that. Using distilled water, for many soapers in the US at least is a given. I too assumed you were using distilled water because all spring and drinking waters here add minerals to the water. Since most tap water also contains minerals and city water has added chlorine and or fluoride it is common knowledge here to always use distilled water.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2015)

You shouldn't need the chemical analysis of the water if your "very well respected soap maker" really knew her stuff. Distilled water and spring water are not remotely the same things.

Water that comes from springs, wells, lakes, and rivers will always contain "hard water" ions. These ions, principally magnesium and calcium, react with potassium or sodium soaps to form insoluble calcium and magnesium soaps. These insoluble soaps are what we call "hard water scum", and they will cause cloudiness in LS if one uses this kind of water for making liquid soap. 

The only types of water that will have zero or very low levels of dissolved minerals are distilled, deionized, and reverse osmosis water, as well as water collected directly from the air -- rainwater being a prime example.

Softened water is another possibility for liquid soapmaking, because some amount of the hard-water ions have been replaced by sodium ions in softened water. Whether softened water will work or not depends on how "soft" the water is -- in other words, how low the concentrations of calcium and magnesium ions are in the softened water. 

If the "expert" you are following is actually using softened water, then her terminology is incorrect and misleading, because soft water is by definition not "spring" water. Since you have mentioned you also follow Failor, you can confirm my advice by referring to her Making Natural Liquid Soaps, copyright 2000, page 10.


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## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 22, 2015)

xxxx


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## Susie (Feb 22, 2015)

I use filtered tap water.  I was using our well water until we got "city" water.  But my filter specifically filters out "hard water ions, chlorine, flouride..."

And don't feel bad, it would never have occurred to me that it was your water, either.  But now we have all learned a valuable lesson.


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## Saponista (Feb 23, 2015)

What sort of filter do you have susie?


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## CarolinePJCoram (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks so much Susie.  It has been a bit of a trial!  Glad to have it sorted now.  Yes, would be interesting to know which filter you use.  Wonder if there is something like it here.


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## Susie (Feb 23, 2015)

I use Pur filters.  The one that hooks right onto the faucet.  I was using one that sent a testing gadget with it, but Walmart quit carrying them here.  I still use that tester, though to see if the water has too many ppm of anything.

If you make soap commercially, you probably use distilled water fast enough to avoid having to dispose of it after 72 hours.  I don't.  And they don't sell distilled water here in bottles smaller than one gallon.  I hate throwing it away.  I had to come up with a plan B.


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## Saponista (Feb 23, 2015)

We are moving up the country and are used to the lovely soft water of the south west UK, so I am looking at solutions which might give us the soft water we are used to.


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## Susie (Feb 23, 2015)

You do have my sympathy.  I love our soft water.  Here is their website, maybe they have them "over the pond" there.

http://www.purwater.com/


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## DeeAnna (Feb 23, 2015)

I've used the Pur brand filters too, probably for 10-15 years now. We have a shallow well, and I don't trust it at certain times of the year. I think the Pur brand is pretty reputable.

Susie -- I buy distilled water in gallon jugs, but I don't dispose of my distilled water after using from the jug. I never pour anything back into the distilled water container -- once the water leaves the jug, it goes into soap or lotion or into a flower pot. I try to keep the container capped at all times unless I'm actually pouring from it. 

There is nothing in distilled water to support microbial growth if you take reasonable care to prevent contamination, and there's nothing to add minerals back into this water, so it should be fine to store and use distilled water until it's gone with a bit of care. I use the same distilled water for my lotions, but I also use the "heat and hold" method to sanitize my ingredients, including my water. I really think it's pretty safe -- just something to think about...


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## shunt2011 (Feb 23, 2015)

I do the same with my distilled water.  I don't throw it away.  Just use precautions and keep it capped.


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## Saponista (Feb 24, 2015)

Thank you, I will have a look at the link and see if they do them over here.


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## Susie (Feb 24, 2015)

In nursing, we were taught to dispose of all wound care liquids that do not contain preservatives(sterile water, normal saline, etc) 72 hours after opening.  I often wondered if that was necessary in the real world, but I am not sure I can break that mindset.  I still date and time any bottle of water I open.roblem:


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## DeeAnna (Feb 24, 2015)

I can respect that, Susie -- I doubt I'd want someone washing my wound with "second hand" liquids!


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