# Shipping (out) cost.



## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

I just paid USPS over $5 to mail 2 5oz bars from MS to AL with minimal packaging—mylar shipping envelope and 2 pieces of card stock..  Is that reasonable?  Is there a cheaper method?


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## Lin19687 (May 21, 2019)

Depends on if you want banged up bars.
I ONLY ship in Priority boxes for flat fee.  I don't care how many you buy so long as it fits in there.  I do NOT want my bars dented


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 21, 2019)

I shipped some in a bag with a lot of bubble wrap and they got there fine. cost me double what you paid though.  the post office had things on the wrong shelf with the wrong prices grrrrrr-- anyway--like I said it got there undented.  but the boxes would be my first choice also


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## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

Thanks for the feedback.  These were freebies for my mom, so a little banging is ok, the I was shocked.  How does anybody make a any money when the shipping costs more than the soap?



Lin19687 said:


> Depends on if you want banged up bars.
> I ONLY ship in Priority boxes for flat fee.  I don't care how many you buy so long as it fits in there.  I do NOT want my bars dented


If you don't mind my asking for a ball-park, what is your break-even on that (i.e. how many bars do you have to ship in an order at flat rate to make it worth the cost)?


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 21, 2019)

DWinMadison said:


> If you don't mind my asking for a ball-park, what is your break-even on that (i.e. how many bars do you have to ship in an order at flat rate to make it worth the cost)?



I believe it is the buyers resp to pay shipping--just like when you buy from a company and have to pay for shipping


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## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

Marilyn Norgart said:


> I believe it is the buyers resp to pay shipping--just like when you buy from a company and have to pay for shipping


I agree, but according to all the experts, most customers want shipping included in the cost of the product.  In fact, most people will supposedly pay MORE for shipping if it's built in the cost of the product.  It's a psychological thing, I guess but people are averse to paying for "shipping."  Ergo, Amazon Prime's popularity.   It's like that deal where I'll pay $19.99 for something, but $20.00 is just a "bridge too far."


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## amd (May 21, 2019)

DWinMadison said:


> In fact, most people will supposedly pay MORE for shipping if it's built in the cost of the product.


I think you mean to say that people will pay more for a product if they aren't paying for shipping. For sellers that may mean including some shipping cost into the price of the product.

With that, price accordingly.

My prices on Etsy split the cost of shipping one bar ($3.75 first class) and offer free shipping, with a discount once they get over 4 bars as it then becomes profitable for me to offer free shipping. Etsy also does a discount if you print shipping labels through them, so I only pay $2.90 or so for shipping one bar. On my own website all shipped orders have a flat rate shipping fee of $3.75, but my customers who shop my website NEVER order just one bar (that's totally an Etsy issue) so it's always worth the difference of the flat rate charged and the actual shipping. All of my soaps are individually wrapped in tissue paper with a sticker on them identifying the soap. (in addition to being shrink wrapped and correctly labeled of course) and I've never gotten complaints about damaged product. In large boxes I also add in bubble wrap or brown paper - recycled from my husband's Amazon habit or from soap supply orders. I've never bought bubble wrap.

1-2 bars go in a padded 6x9 envelope first class (typical prices are one bar $3.75 and two bars $4.90).
3-4 bars go in the small flat rate box that ships for $7.90
3-8 bars (sometimes I can get 10) go into the flat rate padded envelope that ships for $7.90.
If the order is larger, I skip the medium flat rate box (I think that usually ships around $14) and use the medium regional rate box instead. (From memory last summer I shipped 18 bars to OK for $10)

I live in a smallish city, and the ladies at my local PO are incredibly helpful last summer when I was figuring out how to save shipping costs. I went in during a time when they aren't busy (e.g. lunch or Saturday morning) they were more than happy to help me figure out my best shipping options for various possibilities, so now I know how to package before I even get to the PO.


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 21, 2019)

amd said:


> I think you mean to say that people will pay more for a product if they aren't paying for shipping. For sellers that may mean including some shipping cost into the price of the product.
> 
> With that, price accordingly.
> 
> ...



thanks for the info!!!  my PO doesn't carry many of the boxes or bags that are available.  I need to go in and talk to them--even for none soapy things that is a good idea


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## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

amd said:


> I think you mean to say that people will pay more for a product if they aren't paying for shipping. For sellers that may mean including some shipping cost into the price of the product.
> 
> With that, price accordingly.
> 
> ...



Kudos to your local PO--gotta love small town life.

We may be saying them same thing.  The Woocommerce tutorial I was watching  recommended, using your example, to simply increase your price per bar by the $3.75 and list the item as "Free Shipping." Supposedly, people perceive higher value that way.    

I'm trying to decide between setting up my eCommerce site with a minimum order of 3 bars or no minimum but offering a discount for 3+ bars.  In either case, my thought is to build the "free shipping" into the product price.  Of course, for any local deliveries, I just provide a "Hand Delivery" coupon.



Marilyn Norgart said:


> thanks for the info!!!  my PO doesn't carry many of the boxes or bags that are available.  I need to go in and talk to them--even for none soapy things that is a good idea


I do like the idea of sharing the shipping cost.  It helps your customer realize that NOTHING is free.


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## amd (May 21, 2019)

Marilyn Norgart said:


> my PO doesn't carry many of the boxes or bags that are available.


I order all of my flat rate boxes and padded envelopes, and regional rate boxes online from USPS. They're free and they don't charge for delivery. That way I always have what I need in stock. I discovered that often around holidays the local PO doesn't have enough in stock. Ordering online was also the PO ladies suggestion. I buy the 6x9 padded envelopes at WalMart (although the last two times I've gone they've been out of stock of those too, grrrr!).


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## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

Have any of you guys tried "subscription" services whereby you send our a certain number of bars on a regular basis for an annual fee?  It's crazy popular---at least with my wife.  No, seriously, she does enjoy a couple of them for cosmetics, and we do a couple for (bootleg) wine from CA and TX and olive oil  We


amd said:


> I order all of my flat rate boxes and padded envelopes, and regional rate boxes online from USPS. They're free and they don't charge for delivery. That way I always have what I need in stock. I discovered that often around holidays the local PO doesn't have enough in stock. Ordering online was also the PO ladies suggestion. I buy the 6x9 padded envelopes at WalMart (although the last two times I've gone they've been out of stock of those too, grrrr!).


This is very helpful.  Thank you!


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## amd (May 21, 2019)

I tried cratejoy. Turned up crickets.


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 21, 2019)

the place I worked at this last winter had a subscription deal--I have mixed feelings on it I guess, but with the product they sold you could do a monthly box a 6 month box and a year box.



amd said:


> I order all of my flat rate boxes and padded envelopes, and regional rate boxes online from USPS. They're free and they don't charge for delivery. That way I always have what I need in stock. I discovered that often around holidays the local PO doesn't have enough in stock. Ordering online was also the PO ladies suggestion. I buy the 6x9 padded envelopes at WalMart (although the last two times I've gone they've been out of stock of those too, grrrr!).



are the regional boxes something you use a lot?  I really need to go online and check out the sizes of the boxes. Hopefully there are a good variety.  I don't think the place I worked at utilized all the sizes.  I was going to send 4 bars out and thought they would fit in the small box but it didn't work


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## DeeAnna (May 21, 2019)

DWinMadison said:


> I agree, but according to all the experts, most customers want shipping included in the cost of the product.  In fact, most people will supposedly pay MORE for shipping if it's built in the cost of the product....



As you noted, "free" shipping is not free -- it's built into the cost of the merchandise. I hate this kind of promotion because it's deceptive. If I buy just one thing, maybe this "free" shipping is an okay deal. But if I buy 3 items, each with "free" shipping built into the price, then I might easily pay more for shipping these 3 items in one box than if the shipping was calculated at the end.

It's hard to jack up the price of inexpensive merchandise high enough to offer "free" shipping and not have the consumer gag on your prices. It might be better to look at ways to increase the average size of your orders. With more cash flow per customer, you have a little more leeway to play with how you handle shipping. 

One method to consider is the "free shipping over X dollars" promotion. You set the X dollar limit somewhat above the average dollar amount your customers order. That encourages the consumer to buy a little bit more than she might otherwise buy and the extra income you receive from her larger order is used to cover the shipping cost.

Lets say your average order is $50. You set up a "free shipping over $80" promotion. The difference between the average and the promo is $30. Of that $30 difference, let's say half (in other words $15) is needed to cover your costs, including labor and return on investment. The second $15 would then normally be your profit on that merchandise. In this case instance, however that second $15 is used to cover the shipping cost. 

You earn your usual profit on the first $50. For the remaining $30, you get paid $15 for manufacturing and ROI -- pretty much a break-even situation with the balance (the remaining $15) going toward shipping. If shipping is less than $15, the difference can go into your pocket as a small profit. It's really, really important to find out where that break even point is and be sure to make that "X" dollar figure high enough so you aren't losing money.

I've tried this one year with my small business (not soap or B&B related). I was able to sell more expensive items that most people don't otherwise buy. Looking at it from a craftsman's point of view, I liked that because I enjoy making nice things, but they don't always sell well for me due to their cost. The promo made the cost a little more tolerable for my customers. Looking at it as a bookkeeper, however, this promo was pretty much a "break even" deal -- it didn't help my bank account at all. Next time I try this, I need to set my "X" dollar figure a little higher.


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## amd (May 21, 2019)

ETA: @Marilyn Norgart regarding box sizes (DeeAnna jumped in with her thoughts on shipping while I was writing...  )

I googled it quick to check so that I could link it for you, but then got distracted by this article
https://support.shippingeasy.com/hc...ity-Mail-Regional-Rates-vs-Flat-Rate-Packages
In which they make this comment "If your products will fit into Flat Rate envelopes or Small boxes, USPS Flat Rate will always yield a lower rate than USPS Regional Rate boxes. This is across all weights (up to 70lbs) and zones." Which I don't think is a true statement at all. At least it certainly doesn't seem to be true for the times that I've used it. I know it can make a difference if you do Regional Rate A or Regional Rate B, and which zone you are shipping to, so I wonder how accurate their comparison article is. It has always been significantly cheaper for me to ship Regional Rate compared to flat rate. Okay... back to the regularly scheduled program...

I think the regional rate boxes are the same sizes as the flat rate medium and large boxes. I don't think they have padded envelopes or the small flat rate sized box, but I could be wrong. [I needed to stop googling before I went down a rabbit hole I shouldn't be in...]



DeeAnna said:


> As you noted, "free" shipping is not free -- it's built into the cost of the merchandise. I hate this kind of promotion because it's deceptive. If I buy just one thing, maybe this "free" shipping is an okay deal. But if I buy 3 items, each with "free" shipping built into the price, then I might easily pay more for shipping these 3 items in one box than if the shipping was calculated at the end.


I agree with this, and honestly I cringe a bit when I add on the split shipping cost to my Etsy prices, suddenly my $5.25 soap jumps to $7.00 and I have to wonder... even with free shipping who wants a $7 bar of soap? (Of course people pay $10-12 a bar PLUS s&h for Royalty Soaps... so there's that...) The accumulative affect on shipping costs for multiple bars you describe here is exactly why I do the discount for 4 or more bars. At the 4 bar mark they're overpaying for "free" shipping, and that doesn't sit right with my gut. I don't think I have the discount advertised well on Etsy - which might be part of why I don't get very many orders.... ugh. Thanks for making me think of that


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## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> As you noted, "free" shipping is not free -- it's built into the cost of the merchandise. I hate this kind of promotion because it's deceptive. If I buy just one thing, maybe this "free" shipping is an okay deal. But if I buy 3 items, each with "free" shipping built into the price, then I might easily pay more for shipping these 3 items in one box than if the shipping was calculated at the end.
> 
> It's hard to jack up the price of inexpensive merchandise high enough to offer "free" shipping and not have the consumer gag on your prices. It might be better to look at ways to increase the average size of your orders. With more cash flow per customer, you have a little more leeway to play with how you handle shipping.
> 
> ...



This is a very reasonable compromise.  It's certainly how the soap suppliers do it... e.g free shipping for orders over $50.  My issue is the cost of shipping compared to the price of the product.  Of course, the other option, which someone mentioned earlier, is to "share" the shipping with the ever-popular "Shipping and Handling" moniker.


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## Lin19687 (May 21, 2019)

I do the Regional rate Box A - as @amd can attest to.  I only charge $8 for shipping anywhere.  Some times I eat the extra charge, others I make a few Cents on it.  So even though the Buyer pays for shipping it is reasonable and they KNOW that I ship in a box.
Most of my customers are in the New England area.
I also do FM's and Fairs so they can also come see me and I have held orders for a pt that would be in my area of a FM.
Course I already have customers so I know what they would like by asking them in person.
There are too many variables to compare me to you.


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 21, 2019)

amd said:


> ETA: @Marilyn Norgart regarding box sizes (DeeAnna jumped in with her thoughts on shipping while I was writing...  )



thanks, I guess this is why I stated the place I worked for must not have utilized all sizes cuz the regional boxes were a different size and depending where in the country they were going they could be cheaper than a flat rate box to fit.  now I will look into it even more--so far all I do is send soap to my son but he wants to start handing my cards out in the state he is in.  I really don't want to start shipping soap though blech!! I want people to know they want my soap and come to my door to get it hahaha.  thanks again for the links, I appreciate it


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## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> There are too many variables to compare me to you.


Sigh...story of my life...

Nah, I get that.  I brand new to all this.  Just trying to figure it all out.  I assumed about $1.25/bar.  $2.50+ just sat me back on my haunches a bit.



Marilyn Norgart said:


> thanks, I guess this is why I stated the place I worked for must not have utilized all sizes cuz the regional boxes were a different size and depending where in the country they were going they could be cheaper than a flat rate box to fit.  now I will look into it even more--so far all I do is send soap to my son but he wants to start handing my cards out in the state he is in.  I really don't want to start shipping soap though blech!! I want people to know they want my soap and come to my door to get it hahaha.  thanks again for the links, I appreciate it



True that.  It's sort of regional for me.  We have tons of friends in our community who would buy, and I can deliver to them, or they can pick it up.  Then, we have family and friends in Birmingham and Mobile (both in the next state) who want to buy, and they tell their friends, etc.... For someone outside those tight knit circles, I'd advise them to look for a local vendor first--I mean, I'm really proud of what I produce, but it's not "magic."


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 21, 2019)

DWinMadison said:


> True that.  It's sort of regional for me.  We have tons of friends in our community who would buy, and I can deliver to them, or they can pick it up.  Then, we have family and friends in Birmingham and Mobile (both in the next state) who want to buy, and they tell their friends, etc.... For someone outside those tight knit circles, I'd advise them to look for a local vendor first--I mean, I'm really proud of what I produce, but it's not "magic."



no it isn't magic but I guess I gotta admit it makes me proud that he thinks so highly of the soap I make


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## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

Marilyn Norgart said:


> no it isn't magic but I guess I gotta admit it makes me proud that he thinks so highly of the soap I make



Well, I mean, it's not $2.50/bar worth of magic.


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 21, 2019)

DWinMadison said:


> Well, I mean, it's not $2.50/bar worth of magic.



I have a hard time with the $5 a bar I charge--my son told me I am definitely not my target market.  I was going to say cuz I am cheap but there really isn't much cheap about making soap


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## DWinMadison (May 21, 2019)

Marilyn Norgart said:


> I have a hard time with the $5 a bar I charge--my son told me I am definitely not my target market.  I was going to say cuz I am cheap but there really isn't much cheap about making soap



And I feel guilty taking $$$, so I give it all away.


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 21, 2019)

DWinMadison said:


> And I feel guilty taking $$$, so I give it all away.



I probably give more away then I sell--or I give a lot of deals


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## DeeAnna (May 21, 2019)

DWinMadison said:


> ...My issue is the cost of shipping compared to the price of the product....



I'm really sensitive to it too, but I can't see how to ship small orders for much less than about $8 per package, unless you get into shipping via USPS first class and ignore incidental expenses related to shipping. To be honest, it doesn't make sense to ship a single bar or two of soap.

I totally agree it's painful to see a person spend $15 on merchandise and pay another $8 for the shipping, but that's how it is. I don't make a lot of profit on $15 items and I ship a lot of those, especially around Christmas time. I can't  realistically discount shipping on small orders and expect to stay in the black. I ship about 500 packages a year, so I need to know what it costs me to ship all those packages and make sure that expense is covered.

When I order supplies, I estimate my shipping cost will be 20-30% of my merchandise cost for orders under a few hundred dollars. For orders above that, the shipping is more like 8% to 15% of the merchandise cost. Buying larger amounts makes shipping a lot more economical, but it's hard to apply this "buy big" model to bars of handmade soap.


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## Lin19687 (May 22, 2019)

FYI, all of my sent boxes cost about $7.60 to send, and I charge $8.
And like I said before I do not use padded envelopes.  Mailmen toss these things all over and I don't want to have a customer complain about the product being damaged.


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## earlene (May 22, 2019)

As a customer, I have learned that the shipping costs are part of the cost of ordering online, (or by catalogue, before online ordering even existed.)  When I want a product enough, and can only get it by having it shipped to me, that's what I do.  That doesn't stop me from shopping around for the best deal, but when I find what I want, if I have to pay a little more and no one else has it, that's what I do or I go without.

Remember that shipping costs offset the cost of me having to drive somewhere (or take public transportation when & if that is an option, which it's not very often considering where I currently live) and all the hassles of shopping in person for whatever product I want.  When I do travel a fair distance to purchase what I want, it tends to be quite costly and can really cut into a huge chunk of time.


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## Marilyn Norgart (May 22, 2019)

earlene said:


> As a customer, I have learned that the shipping costs are part of the cost of ordering online, (or by catalogue, before online ordering even existed.)  When I want a product enough, and can only get it by having it shipped to me, that's what I do.  That doesn't stop me from shopping around for the best deal, but when I find what I want, if I have to pay a little more and no one else has it, that's what I do or I go without.
> 
> Remember that shipping costs offset the cost of me having to drive somewhere (or take public transportation when & if that is an option, which it's not very often considering where I currently live) and all the hassles of shopping in person for whatever product I want.  When I do travel a fair distance to purchase what I want, it tends to be quite costly and can really cut into a huge chunk of time.



What she said!!!!!!


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## SideDoorSoaps (May 22, 2019)

Shipping costs are the reason I don’t like to sell online. I’ve set up a local pick up or flat $7.95 rate option. Most people pick up. People who do buy online buy enough that I can ship usually for $7.95 either flat rate or regular mail cost. I’ve only eaten a few overages.

I’ve also tried a subscription box. It didn’t really go well. I spent more time figuring out the schedule of what goes in the box than what paid off.


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