# Listing ingredients question



## angelz921 (Feb 25, 2012)

So I ordered some non-bleeding colorants from Brambleberry and they list the INCI as Ultramarines, I have only ever used FD&C colors so I have no idea how to list the colors.

Is Ultramarines a suitable ingredient?


Do you list your ingredients on your soap?


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## Tabitha (Feb 25, 2012)

If it is M&P. it is probably not soap, it is probably a detergent which is considered a cosmetic by the FDA in the USA so by law you must list the ingredients. Yes, I do.


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## Tabitha (Feb 25, 2012)

This thread should clear up why you M&P is or is not soap, is or is not a cosmetic & is or is not a drug & what your legal requirements are.

This comes up a lot so I thought I would make it a sticky. 

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-218.html 
Is It a Cosmetic, a Drug, or Both? 
(or Is It Soap?) 


http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-lab1.html 
Summary of Regulatory Requirements for Labeling of Cosmetics Marketed in the United States. 

Cosmetic Labeling Regulations as Published in Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 701, 740 and Other Pertinent Sections. 

Cosmetic Labeling Guide.


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## angelz921 (Feb 25, 2012)

Well I'm glad I've always labeled my Goat's Milk Soap and eventually my glycerin. I was always under the impression that I was supposed to label my soap but was told (by a soap maker) that I didn't have to list ingredients. 

Ok, so I read through your sticky about labeling so Ultramarines is the obviously the suitable ingredient for the label but let's say I use red. Do you put Ultramarines Red or just leave it as Ultramarines?


Thank you for the link, I had no idea that that information was under the bath and body area.


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## paillo (Feb 26, 2012)

regardless of what product it is, i label all ingredients. 

regarding melt and pour, there are very different formulations out there. there are some based on mostly naturally derived ingredients. others are mostly detergents and chemicals. as a consumer i want to know what i'm getting. will buy the former but not the latter, and won't even consider those without listed ingredients.

i'm struggling with reed diffusers because the bases are proprietary formulas and i don't know what's in them -- only sometimes what's NOT in them. may give up on that idea anyway...

ultramarines will suffice in your listing, you do not need to specify the color.

as an aside, there's the debate about using inci listings vs. plain english listings. when the inci is very short and self-explanatory i use them. otherwise i don't, do not want to have to whip out my dictionary when i'm looking at a label. and just too much info on a label, imho. 

when in doubt i do look it up. e.g. when i first started out i mistakenly thought cosmetic micas were natural ingredients. real, mined micas are natural -- also full of lead, selenium and other heavy metals = natural but NOT safe. cosmetic micas are recreated in the lab, and are not natural, but are GRAS. google is a wonderful thing when trying to navigate the complex landscape of ingredients.

sorry to hijack the thread!


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## angelz921 (Feb 26, 2012)

This particular M&P is glycerin so yes labeling is required, I have always labeled my soap. I have a friend who is allergic to FD&C red 40 and she comments how there are so many products that she can't use or consume because of it. So I've always listed in detail the ingredients for those who may have allergies. 

Thanks so much for the answer, I appreciate it.


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## paillo (Feb 26, 2012)

Tabitha said:
			
		

> This thread should clear up why you M&P is or is not soap, is or is not a cosmetic & is or is not a drug & what your legal requirements are.
> 
> http://soapmakingforum.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=9



tabitha, that link goes to the general discussion for me.


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## angelz921 (Feb 26, 2012)

If you read through the sticky note's there is a lot of useful information in there.


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## paillo (Feb 26, 2012)

angelz921 said:
			
		

> This particular M&P is glycerin so yes labeling is required, I have always labeled my soap. I have a friend who is allergic to FD&C red 40 and she comments how there are so many products that she can't use or consume because of it. So I've always listed in detail the ingredients for those who may have allergies.
> 
> Thanks so much for the answer, I appreciate it.



really good point about allergies and FD&C colors, glad you brought it up.


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## Tabitha (Feb 26, 2012)

angelz921 said:
			
		

> This particular M&P is glycerin so yes labeling is required, I have always labeled my soap. I have a friend who is allergic to FD&C red 40 and she comments how there are so many products that she can't use or consume because of it. So I've always listed in detail the ingredients for those who may have allergies.
> 
> Thanks so much for the answer, I appreciate it.



What do you mean it "is glycerin"? Glycerin is 1 ingredient but there are many other ingredients in it as well. The M&P  "glycerin" soap base I purchase contains :Coconut Oil, Palm Oil.Castor Oil, Safflower Oil, Glycerin (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (from berries, moisturizer), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier).Soybean protein (conditioner


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## Tabitha (Feb 26, 2012)

ASorry the link did not work. This is the info that should have come up:

Sorry, this comes up a lot so I thought I would make it a sticky. 

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-218.html 
Is It a Cosmetic, a Drug, or Both? 
(or Is It Soap?) 


http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-lab1.html 
Summary of Regulatory Requirements for Labeling of Cosmetics Marketed in the United States. 

Cosmetic Labeling Regulations as Published in Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 701, 740 and Other Pertinent Sections. 

Cosmetic Labeling Guide.


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## angelz921 (Feb 26, 2012)

Prop. Glycol, coconut oil, triethanolamine, sodium cocoate, sodium myristate,  SLS, sodium stearate, tit. dioxide,  SLSA, Purified Water


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## paillo (Feb 26, 2012)

angelz921 said:
			
		

> Prop. Glycol, coconut oil, triethanolamine, sodium cocoate, sodium myristate,  SLS, sodium stearate, tit. dioxide,  SLSA, Purified Water



that is one i would NOT buy


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## angelz921 (Feb 26, 2012)

Because of the chemicals?


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## angelz921 (Feb 26, 2012)

What you would recommend as a supplier for M&P soap?


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## Genny (Feb 27, 2012)

angelz921 said:
			
		

> What you would recommend as a supplier for M&P soap?



  It matters what *you* want from your soap. Just because one person thinks a "natural" soap is the way to go, doesn't necessarily mean it will fit your needs.   

   If you're going for more of a visual appeal with your soaps, the "natural" bases usually are hard to use for that.  They're usually soft, collect more moisture and are harder to set.

   If you want to change what kind of base you're using, I'd check out different suppliers and look at their ingredients.  Do some investigation on what those ingredients are and why they're in the soap.

   Then find some that you think you might like and try it out.  When switching to a new base, I always slice off a small piece and use that before doing anything to it.  If I don't like how it feels right off the slab, then there's nothing I can add to it that will make me love it.

Here's a list of some suppliers that get pretty good reviews on here:
http://www.naturesgardencandles.com 
http://www.brambleberry.com
http://www.soapgoods.com
http://www.goplanetearth.com
http://www.fromnaturewithlove.com
http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com
http://www.wisterialane.com

A lot of the places also offer a sampler pack of their mp bases, which if you can afford it may be even more benificial to you in helping find the right base for you.


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## paillo (Feb 27, 2012)

i get mine from either peak candle or the premium line at brambleberry, both excellent suppliers. yes, because of the chemicals in the one you mention


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## Tabitha (Feb 28, 2012)

angelz921 said:
			
		

> Prop. Glycol, coconut oil, triethanolamine, sodium cocoate, sodium myristate,  SLS, sodium stearate, tit. dioxide,  SLSA, Purified Water



OK, so it is a cosmetic according to the FDA.


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## Tabitha (Feb 28, 2012)

paillo said:
			
		

> i get mine from either peak candle or the premium line at brambleberry, both excellent suppliers. yes, because of the chemicals in the one you mention



Chemicals in my M&P do not bother me. It is a wash off product. I am more concerned about what goes in (foods/meds/herbs/etc) my  body that what washes past it.

There is a customer base that will only buy all natural soap, but it is very minimal, so unless that is who you plan to target foryour specific marketing, I wouldn't worry.


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## Tabitha (Feb 28, 2012)

I buy from essentials by catalina and columbus foods, they have the best price for mid sized quantity. You can get 20# (or 24#, I forget) blocks at columbus foods & catalina has a great price when you buy 40#s.


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## paillo (Feb 28, 2012)

Tabitha said:
			
		

> paillo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yah, most of my customer base for m&p are those seeking 'natural' or as close to it as possible, so that's definitely my bias.  tabitha makes an excellent point about wash-off products. but i remain very concerned about phthalates and parabens, even in wash-off products, hence my seeking the more 'natural' lines. that said, the definition of 'natural' is totally elusive, undefined and up to the manufacturer, seller and buyer. knowledge and research are essential to all of us, if only to inform our buyers of controversies should questions arise. and in my experience they have. just my two cents...


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## bombus (Mar 1, 2012)

Hi Tabitha-
I looked at Catalina's web page, and requested their ingredient lists. Glycerin is the first ingredient listed for most of their bases. How does it stand up to humidity? I was under the understanding that the higher the glycerin content, the more "sweating" the bars have.
I don't live in a particularly humid place, but have had trouble with sweating beneath the plastic wrap I use on my bars.


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## Tabitha (Mar 1, 2012)

My bars do not sweat. Never had one since I have been using this base. With that said  it is a very soft base so the bars are softer. I always wrap, or snap the lid on my clamb molds, w/i a few hours of unmolding.


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## Tabitha (Mar 1, 2012)

It looks like the FDA redid their entire website, so the previous links do not work. I researched the new site & theses are the new links below. Same pages & info, just different links....

http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceCo ... 074201.htm 
Is It a Cosmetic, a Drug, or Both? 
(or Is It Soap?) 


http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/CosmeticLa ... efault.htm 
Summary of Regulatory Requirements for Labeling of Cosmetics Marketed in the United States. 

Cosmetic Labeling Regulations as Published in Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Sections 701, 740 and Other Pertinent Sections. 

Cosmetic Labeling Guide.


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