# crumbly, soft soap - not sure how to proceed?!



## zazazing (Oct 5, 2012)

Hi there,

I'm very new to soap making and finally got a batch that unmolded cleanly (thank you so much irish for recommending the sodium lactate - that's the only reason this must have come out without sticking!).  

I unmolded after 24 hours and tried to cut the slab in half to separate the bars - it was very crumbly and soft in the center...almost like cutting feta cheese.  The outside looked fine and smooth and is pretty firm to the touch - if I press down, I won't make an imprint or anything.  

The parts that crumbled off were like super soft dough crumbs - I could actually gather them up and make a patty with them.  

I took pictures b/c now I'm not sure how to proceed!  I'm pretty sure I measured exactly, but did I not use enough lye?  Or if I wait another day will I be able to cut it?  I should also mention this batch never gelled.  It's a pretty standard recipe w/ olive, palm, palm kernel, coconut and a smidgen of mango butter and castor oil.  

Any advice would be great appreciated.  Thanks so much!


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## soapcakes (Oct 5, 2012)

Beautiful soap! I have had crumbling like that from using too much sodium lactate, and for some reason, I can't use sodium lactate in my low slab mold, like yours appears to be, otherwise my soap is always crumbly, I'm not sure why!

It's gorgeous soap though, it looks like big slabs of white chocolate


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## zazazing (Oct 5, 2012)

Thanks so much for the response!  Oh gosh, I was hoping it was salvageable, but does it always remain crumbly?  It's so moist too, so I was hoping if it dried out a bit more I could perhaps attempt cutting it.  I used the recommended sodium lactate of 1 T per lb of oil - I was so excited to have soap that didn't stick, but now this!  I wonder if I will ever be able to make a standard, normal, problem-free bar!  Thanks again for your insight.


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## new12soap (Oct 6, 2012)

Your soap looks great  Go ahead and cut it as carefully as you can, then wait a week and see how it does. It doesn't sound like you used too much SL, about 1% shouldn't cause crumbling. I don't know what your ratios of oils were, but I think this soap will cure out nicely as long as it isn't lye heavy and doesn't zap. Since it didn't gel you may want to wait another day or so to zap test.

I don't know what a standard normal problem-free bar_ IS_, but I am sure you will get there


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## zazazing (Oct 6, 2012)

Thanks, guys!  So I tried to cut the bars at 48 hours and it's just a mess.  Still super soft and gooey dough-like and the outside turned white, almost like it's been spray-painted.  I tried the zap test and it seemed fine.  But I cannot get a good batch for the life of me!  What I mean by problem-free bar is one that unmolds w/o sticking and getting destroyed, doesn't have bad stearic spots, and doesn't seize - every single batch I've made has had one of these problems!  I guess I am learning w/ all this firsthand experience, but I hope to be able to make some normal soap I can share w/ family and friends w/o them thinking they're going to get a disease from it!  Thanks again for your help - I'd be completely lost w/o this forum!


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## Kansas Farm Girl (Oct 6, 2012)

What percentages did you use for each of your oils?  Have you ever had this recipe work in the past?  I've had some batches do something similar and time did seem to help them. If mine is soft when I try to cut I wait and try again later until it hardens up.


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## zazazing (Oct 7, 2012)

The recipe is 45% olive, 22% coconut, 12% palm kernel, 12% palm, 5% castor, 4% mango butter, 7.26 oz distilled water, 3.14 oz lye.  I've tried making this same recipe 5 different times - the only thing I've changed is the fragrance, the temp (anywhere from 100 to 120) at mixing, adding the sodium lactate and gelling/non-gelling.  Every time it comes out differently and I encounter some new problem!  Thanks for the help and giving me some hope - I will cross my fingers this batch will work out after curing!    On another note, I notice that the soaps from the previous batches, esp the early ones, have barely any fragrance left.  I used 1 ounce per 2 lb tray mold, so I guess I need to add more!


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## ClaraSuds (Oct 7, 2012)

Mango butter has that texture when its ben overheated and it could be your problem. Why not make a simple traditional bar without all the fancy stuff first? Something like olive and coconut oil only or a straight traditional tallow soap. The less variables you have the easier it becomes and the easier it is to know what's gone wrong if something does. 

The other thing I noticed is you list your water and lye as Oz's yet list your oils as percentages. Could it be that something is going wrong in your ratios? What were the Oz' of each oil and butter? That will help us troubleshoot. 

 I'm using tupperware containers and greaseproof paper for my molds. The soap cannot stick because it never comes into contact with the walls of the container. Theres a fair amount of wisdom in sticking to a basic recipe and shoebox molds. With such a setup, not much can go wrong. You can only get your ratios wrong or overheat. Problems are easy to fix and you have the satisfaction of a successful bar of (plain and unfancy soap) early on in your journey. My very first batch was a simple unscented vege soap. It worked perfectly and gave me the confidence to try scenting, colouring and additives on my 2nd and 3rd batches knowing that I already had success with the basic process. 

Finally what exactly are you using to fragrance the soap? I use 1/2 Oz of EO for my 2.5lb batch and the scent is so strong it fills my apartment.


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## new12soap (Oct 7, 2012)

I knew what you meant about a "normal" bar, I was just teasing because I have yet to have a completely perfect turned out exactly the way I wanted it to bar that I can make consistently. There are _always_ surprises!

I would agree that you may want to simplify your recipe for now, until you get a bit more experience. Coconut oil and palm kernel oil have very similar properties and those 2 combined are making up a fair percentage of your soap. I would suggest something simple like 45 olive, 30 palm, 20 coconut, 5 castor, and forget the mango butter and PKO entirely for now. Also, if you are making a 2 lb batch of soap that doesn't sound like enough water or lye. What is your total weight of your oils?

Fragrance oils are usually calculated by weight of base oils, too. EO's can vary a great deal depending on which one, but most (not all!) FO's are usually recommeded at 5% or approximately 1 ounce per pound of oil. Check the supplier where you bought them. So, if you are using 2 lbs of oils in your soap recipe you would use 2 ounces of fragrance. Also some fade more, others stick better in CP soap. Sounds like you may be using about half the recommended amount.


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## zazazing (Oct 8, 2012)

Thank you so much - I am going to try that recipe.  I didn't realize the one I was whipping up was more advanced - I found it on a site as a "basic" recipe and thought it sounded nice!  It has definitely been daunting for me though....

I get most of my fragrance and essential oils from New Directions and then recently I ordered some from Brambleberry.  The ND ones smell amazing so I was disappointed that after about 3 weeks what had once been a strong smell, now smells like nothing.  I guess I will have to up to 2oz - good to know!  Did I also read something about fragrances sticking more when you don't gel vs when you do?  I can't tell a difference so far.

The oils for the 2 lb mold are 22 oz - I used the mold calculator on this forum to figure the oils, but it actually came out to be too much for this mold.  22 oz works out pretty much exact w/o any overflow.  That's what my water/lye calculations are based on.  (I used the calculator on Brambleberry).

Thanks again for everyone's help.  I'm very Type A with a touch of OCD so I'm really determined to get this right - the variables each time have been ebbing at me!  I want to try this simpler recipe you recommended - would you still use the sodum lactate w/ this one? (I think the bit of castor oil tends to make it stick to the mold and the SL helped w/ that).  I'm waiting on a new container of lye, so hopefully towards the end of the week!  Thanks again


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## new12soap (Oct 8, 2012)

Ok, for 22 ounces of oils, you were using the correct amount of FO, 5% would be 1.1 ounces, so it sounds like you got one that just didn't want to stick. It's a shame but sometimes it does happen. You can check real soaper's fragrance oil reviews here:

http://soapscentreview.obisoap.ca/index.php

You need a paid email account (no free ones like aol yahoo gmail etc) such as the one you get from you internet service provider, but it is very helpful to check which ones stick better and which ones fade, as well as any other notes like acceleration, discoloration, morphing, etc.

As for FO's sticking better with gelling vs. non-gelling I am afraid I don't know that, perhaps someone else will chime in.

Yes, I would still use sodium lactate at 1-2% of you oils, so around 0.4 ounces added to your water before you add your lye.

Another trick I have heard of (but I have not tried it so I can't vouch personally) is to mix all your oils except your castor, then add the castor directly to your lye water after the solution has cooled and right before you stir in into your oils.

HTH


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## zazazing (Oct 8, 2012)

Oh, thank you!  I was able to sign up for the site w/ my school email address - just waiting to be approved now.  This sounds so helpful.  I like light citrus-y scents and I had heard those do not stick as easily, so most likely I'll have to add more.

I'll keep you posted once I try the recipe.  I'm too gun-shy to try the castor lye mix, but maybe in the future...


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## zazazing (Oct 8, 2012)

OMG!  Just got on the site and I could literally spend all day on here - it's amazing!  Thank you so much for sharing this forum!


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## Kansas Farm Girl (Oct 8, 2012)

I have never used SL, and don't have trouble with my soaps sticking. I use either a wooden loaf lined in butcher paper, a silicone loaf mold or 1 qrt paper-board cream containers. I think those have a wax coating because sometimes it seems like I have a very tiny amount of wax on the top of my soap when I use those. But is it so little I have never worried about it. I do have the most problems getting the soap out of the cream containers. I have to let it sit longer and dry out more before ripping the carton apart to get the loaf out. But that's not an issue, I have the room and time to let them age.

My preferred recipe is in the range of 40% beef tallow, 20% coconut, 30% olive and 10% castor, I adjust based on what results I want. I sometimes swap out lard for the tallow, cut back on the castor add some sunflower.  I try to keep my oils pretty basic, mostly ones I can buy locally. I always gel. I tend to under-scent, too much scent in the air and I can't breathe. As long as I remember the KISS principle - Keep it simple Soaper, I do pretty good.


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## new12soap (Oct 9, 2012)

zazazing said:
			
		

> Oh, thank you!  I was able to sign up for the site w/ my school email address - just waiting to be approved now.  This sounds so helpful.  I like light citrus-y scents and I had heard those do not stick as easily, so most likely I'll have to add more.
> 
> I'll keep you posted once I try the recipe.  I'm too gun-shy to try the castor lye mix, but maybe in the future...



Just make sure you stay within the recommended percentages. Adding more could cause skin irritation, and if it is a scent that fades it may not help anyway. For the fleeting citrus scents try adding 1 tsp cornstarch, that can help to "anchor" the fragrance.


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## zazazing (Oct 10, 2012)

Okay, my lye just came today so I was going to attempt another batch tonight.  Cornstarch?  In what ratio/quantity and when?  That's a new one I've never heard - interesting.  Thanks again!


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## new12soap (Oct 10, 2012)

zazazing said:
			
		

> Okay, my lye just came today so I was going to attempt another batch tonight.  Cornstarch?  In what ratio/quantity and when?  That's a new one I've never heard - interesting.  Thanks again!



1 level teaspoon per pound of oils, and I have no idea what is the best way to do it. I have stickblended it into my warm oils before adding my lye, and I have also mixed it with my additives to put in after the cook (HP) before pouring into the mold. It does seem to help, worth a try. HTH


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## SoSoapy (Oct 10, 2012)

> On another note, I notice that the soaps from the previous batches, esp the early ones, have barely any fragrance left. I used 1 ounce per 2 lb tray mold, so I guess I need to add more!



when did you add the fragrance,  (because some of the f/o's have low flashpoints) or maybe the f/o just wasn't a good quality fragrance for soap


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## zazazing (Oct 11, 2012)

I've just made the new batch w/ the simpler recipe.  I didn't see the message regarding the cornstarch in time, but I'll try it next time if this batch comes out.  I did 4 lbs for 2 2lb molds.  Everything so far was okay - I just peeped on the molds under the towelsand it looks like it's just starting to gel in the centers although I poured them almost 4 hours ago.  I really hope it reaches all the edges.  I'll take pics if it comes out - fingers crossed!

SoSoapy, I've only ever added fragrance and essential oils by hand stirring right after reaching trace and right before pouring into the mold tray.  I usually soap around 110.  The ones that faded seem to be all the ones from New Directions Aromatics - ruby grapefruit, bergamot, white grapefruit and almond.  I notice the smell is slightly stronger in the ones that didn't gel, but I think I need to always gel b/c the ungelled ones have the worst stearic spots (although the color is much nicer).

Thanks again - I'll keep you posted


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## ClaraSuds (Oct 11, 2012)

I don't know about New Directions in your country, but I buy from ND in Australia and they state on the AU site that their fragrance oils are not suitable for CP soaps.


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## zazazing (Oct 11, 2012)

Oh boy!  So the batch from last night didn't end up gelling completely, only partially!  When I saw that it looked like it might not reach the edges, I actually put a jacket on top of it.  But this morning when I looked, there was a ring.  This is the first time I've ever gotten a partial...another new challenge....  I can also see that the parts that didn't gel are getting the white spots again.  I'm a little afraid to unmold it - I think I'll wait b/c it looks rather soft still and even 18 hours later it's still a bit warm.  Is there any way to get this batch to finish the gel process?

That's really interesting about the NDA FO in your country.  On the US site it says they're okay for CP and I read the reviews for each fragrance, which were quite good, many of them had been used in CP.  But for me, they really didn't work out.  I wonder why it's different for the AUS and US sites.

I am going to take a breather on the soap making b/c I"m just having too many misses.  I did just purchase a silicone loaf pan to try at a later date.  I originally was scared of the loaves b/c I thought I wouldn't be able to cut them straight or well, but I'm willing to give it a try once I recover from all my fails!  I was thinking maybe some of my problems stem from the kind of plastic mold I've been using  :?: 

Thanks again for everything!


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## ClaraSuds (Oct 11, 2012)

You coukd be right about the mould. It looks like a thin slab so your mix may not have enough mass to surface area in order to create the heat required to gel completely without a lot if insulation. Most people use log moulds and so there is little heat loss from the smaller surface area. This batch isn't a goner. Partial gel isn't a make or break and those white areas are just where the soap is in the more opaque state of ungelled soap. It may not be cosmetically preferrable but your soap will still be fine to use if this s the only issue.


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## new12soap (Oct 13, 2012)

Yep, tray molds are harder to get complete gel, too much surface area to hold the heat. plastic molds can NOT go in the oven! Next time you can try putting the mold on top of a heating pad on the counter, pour the soap and immediately cover it all up. maybe a peice of cardboard with a towel on top of that (so as to not smoosh the soap), and leave the heating pad on for an hour or so. That may help. And those lighter spots will fade some with cure.

They still look like very lovely soaps to me


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## zazazing (Oct 14, 2012)

Hi guys,

Thanks for your thoughts.  When I was getting a full gel w/ these trays the weather was much warmer.  It did cool down almost 20 degrees this last batch, so I think that's the main reason it didn't get the edges.  A heating pad is a good idea.  It turns out the silicone loaf mold I ordered was out of stock so I need to look for another one.  Any rec's?  I would like the ease of silicone.  I don't think I can handle a wood mold and all that lining.  I saw some on Brambleberry but I wish they had reviews on that site.

About the last soap batch, I ended up googling how to finish gel and read about oven process.  I know my pvc molds are not meant for the oven (HTH, you must have known I was loose cannon enough to precaution me!), but I put one in there at 150 (although the info said it was supposed to be 170 for 2 hrs) for an hour and it looked like it completed the gel process.  I did this less than 24 hours after I had originally made the soap.  It bowed the edges of the tray and warped it a bit but nothing too major.  I have no idea if I put it in long enough and what exactly happened but I cut both trays (this time w/ no problems) and pictured them both.  

The oven one is a lot darker and felt denser when I cut it.  The partial gel one evened out slightly and isn't as bad to look at as I initially thought.


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## ClaraSuds (Oct 14, 2012)

Good looking soap... :wink:


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## zazazing (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks!  I'm trying to get there....

Also, I wanted to tell you those NDA essential oils and fragrances that faded out to nothing...well, I used one of those bars for the first time b/c they just finished their 4 week cure and it turns out once the bar suds up, i can smell the fragrance.  It's not super strong, but definitely still there.  It just doesn't come through in the dry bar!


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## ClaraSuds (Oct 15, 2012)

Fragrancing in soap I think is really tricky. I stopped by a shop with professional CP soaps on offer. They had been scented with EOs and honestly every bar just had some vague herbal smell about it. But I can tell though that star anise is a huge scent in a bar. My house still smells like a licorice factory. I've decided to leave my soaps unscented and scent my homemade lotions instead. Its much cheaper to scent lotion than soap, and more reliable. I don't mind to wash with unscented soap and its just for me right now.


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## Dennis (Oct 15, 2012)

zazazing said:
			
		

> Thanks, guys!  So I tried to cut the bars at 48 hours and it's just a mess.  Still super soft and gooey dough-like and the outside turned white, almost like it's been spray-painted.  I tried the zap test and it seemed fine.



Sounds like soda ash to me.  I've had that happen when I cut partially gelled soap too soon.  Did you zap test before you cut the first time?


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## zazazing (Oct 15, 2012)

I think you're right and it was soda ash, but even when I cut it, it had kind of uneven color throughout.  I never did the zap test but when I was scrunching some discarded parts (I had cut off the crumbly edges) into a ball under water, I tested the lather w/ a ph strip.  I don't know when you're supposed to do this but it was about a 9 and this was a few days later.  I don't know if that means it's safe?


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## Dennis (Oct 15, 2012)

Give it some time.  Do a zap test.  If you had done it before the soda ash appeared it probably would have been positive.  (ZAP!)  
Mine was covered with soda ash after cutting and was soft and squushy kinda.  Turned out ok after I left it alone and it hardened after about a week.  
It was a batch that I was trying to do a column pour with and failed miserably.  It was a mess but the soap eventually was ok.  Soda ash won't hurt anything.  It's just not real pretty.   

NO, I'M NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT THE FAILED COLUMN POUR.   But I might post a couple of pics.  Maybe.


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## zazazing (Oct 16, 2012)

Go for it, Dennis!  I would love to see some pics.  I have been one fail after another but feel like I'm learning a lot.

I tried the zap test and I didn't get a zap but the tip of my tongue tasted a bit more foul than usual.  Very strong taste.

Another interesting thing I read was that sometimes you can get that soft doughy crumbly texture when you pour at too thin a trace.  That's actually exactly what I had done that batch and never before.  I saw it on a soap blog and she had had just that same soft texture and she attributed it to having a trace that was too thin.

I found this cheese slicer at home that I've slicing the soda ash off w/.  Depending on the pressure, it can take off very little or a lot.  It's very nifty b/c I don't like the look of ash!


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## Dennis (Oct 16, 2012)

The ash will go away as soon as you use the soap.


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