# When soap goes bad....life isn't the same



## Spice (Dec 28, 2017)

When the new year rung in in Jan of 2017, I was making soap for the street fairs and farmer's Markets coming around. I had made lots of soap, I mean LOTS. Lavender was my fav. I had ordered some Alkanet root, and was infusing sunflower oil to add into my Lavender Haze Soap. I was not happy with the Saddlewood powder that I had been using for over a year; so I decided to do the infusion thing. 

I got good results with the Alkanet, nice color, my EO smell great. All my soaps were good looking. When my first street fair come around in early May, I started noticing that my soaps were a different color. An ugly yellow, like massive DOS. the lavender was the worse, to the point I stopped putting it out for sell. Soap that I had never had an issue with, ever, had DOS; but the Lavender was the worse. I couldn't figure out what was so wrong. I managed to get enough soap, to skinny by 2017. 

Since September, I havent  sold any soap, I needed to find out what was going wrong. I bought, new blenders, thinking that it was the Hand held blender gone bad. I got rid of, yes; threw out, 2 ounces of Lavender EO, and bought new. Got rid of any old pipettes and started over with new ones ( I usually clean and save my pipettes). Posted pictures on this forum, to no avail. I tested so much soap, that I had more soap then food! All were awful, the alkanet root took a turn for the worst, it turn absolutely brown after just 2 weeks. I was going to quit and just sale everything I had, every soap had a problem now. It looked as if I didn't know what I was doing.

To make matters worse, I had two Boxer dogs that had cancer, I euthanized one in Oct and the other in Nov. I shared my life with them and they shared theirs with me. I euthanized my last on Nov 20th,Thankgiving week. 

By now, I had a clue of what was going on though, thank God because I was in no shape to think; my test batches were beginning to talk to me. 
I remembered that in Jan of 2016, I bought new lye, I thought that maybe it was the lye because I had changed everything and still was coming up with the same results. Brown soap. I talked with the manager from the chemical company, I wanted to know where did the lye I bought came from, and if there had been any other complaints. He assure me that there wasn't, if it made me feel better he was going to give me a 50 lb lye bucket. I figured since it was Sept, and the batch was from Jan, why not.

Then I started thinking again, what if it does the same thing, how would I know? I decided to order a small amount from Bulk Apothecary. I got the lye from Bulk, made a test batch, and what do I get......brown soap! Now I knew, it wasn't the lye, so what was it?

I remembered that I was having an issue with my batter tracing really fast, I posted on this forum about that. Some asked the % of lye to water, if I soaped at full water I wouldn't have an issue with tracing. So I started soaping at full water. Worked good, that was in 2015, at end of 2016 is when I ran out of the old lye,  that's when I started the new lye from that Chemical company that I had called bout the lye. I hated to buy from them because it was more money for the lye, but the old lye I had been using come from some guy, that I met at the back of some store.

When I started to think about the new lye, I realized that I was still soaping at full water. My new lye water was RT, and my oils were not very hot, I started to wonder if I was soaping to cold. I started a test batch with my lye at 120 and the oils at about 80. It was better but within a week I could see DOS coming. 
I finally got it, it was the blending, my soap wasnt even tracing, the new lye that I had was different from the first. So the next test batch, I blended the crap out of it and I could barely get it to trace, but I knew it had saponified. I could see the difference. It was Lavender with Alkanet infused oil, by the 4th week, I had one little DOS mark, God only knows where it come from; the rest was perfect.
I don't know if the first lye was a lower grade or what. I just know that, it took this long to figure something out when it comes to soap. I was totally depressed because of the disappointment.

I guess that not all lye is the same, the one thing I learned, I will be staying with companies that are reputable and test each time I get a new batch of lye....no matter what. 

My apologies for this post being so long. Its been a while.:headbanging::headbanging:


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 28, 2017)

Thank you for sharing your journey of resolving a rather tricky issue -- I'm inspired by your patience and persistence. Well done. :clap:  :clap:  :clap:


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## jewels621 (Dec 28, 2017)

How frustrating for you! I hope the joy of soaping comes back. And I hope the gremlins leave your home for good.


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## dixiedragon (Dec 28, 2017)

Welcome back! 

And I'm so sorry about your dogs.


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## penelopejane (Dec 28, 2017)

So sorry to hear about your horrible year. I hope 2018 is much better for you. 

I had a couple of batches that started getting yellow spots (about 1/2 an inch across) but it wasn’t DOS because it started to spread along the edges of the soap. I am pretty sure it was the FO turning the soap yellow. Perfect soap - some yellow all over some with yellow edges. I stopped using that FO and have had no further problem. Fingers crossed.  So difficult to pinpoint problems! 

I do know that lavender EO can make soap prone to DOS but haven’t used it yet so have no experience with it.


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## cmzaha (Dec 28, 2017)

Your experiences are one of the reasons we tell newbies not to sell in less than a year or so. You need to know what your soap is going to do over time. Hopefully you get it worked out. I purchase my lye from a chem house and I get a COA and of course the MSDS with my purchase. Have you tried making single oils soaps with the lye you think is suspect, you can learn quit a bit about your recipe this way if you use the oils you normally soap with. If you use lard in high amounts in your soap it could be your lard that is the culprit. While I love the feel of lard it hates me when it comes to soap so I never go over 25%. Some will remember my lard test a few years ago using different brands available here and Farmer John was the very worst, but all came down with dos. Hope you get it worked out, but it can take months to work out


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## isha (Dec 28, 2017)

Sorry for your loss..  Hope u have an excellent 2018..
It's great to read n learn from.  Your post.  Thanks for posting and appreciate your patience. 
Being a newbie, I had made a few batches n sold them all right out to known people.  They all loved it..  I did save few pieces of each batch.. . For observation


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## EssentialSuds (Dec 28, 2017)

Could it be your sunflower oil? This oil has a very short shelf life. It should be used within 3 months. How old is our sunflower oil?

Julie


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## shunt2011 (Dec 28, 2017)

Sunflower is actually a year and if high oleic it would be longer.


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## Relle (Dec 28, 2017)

isha said:


> Sorry for your loss..  Hope u have an excellent 2018..
> It's great to read n learn from.  Your post.  Thanks for posting and appreciate your patience.
> Being a newbie, I had made a few batches n sold them all right out to known people.  They all loved it..  I did save few pieces of each batch.. . For observation



Being a newbie, I wouldn't be selling your soap, even to friends. If you want their opinion, give them some, don't sell it., You have only been making soap for a couple of months ( your words). I think you need to read this thread - http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=16002


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## toxikon (Dec 28, 2017)

It can certainly be difficult to pinpoint the cause of DOS. The main causes, as far as I know, are:

- not using distilled water
- using old oils
- using oils with a short shelf-life
- using old/short-lived oils in a high superfat
- curing soaps in sunlight
- curing soap on metal racks
- curing in particularly hot/humid conditions
- not allowing good airflow around curing soaps
- using certain essential oils (lavender especially!)


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## Saranac (Dec 28, 2017)

I'm so sorry for your loss.  The hardest thing I've ever had to do was make that decision for a pet.  My first dog. . . and he filled such a whole in my heart.  But it was the humane thing to do. . . 

As for the soap, I've given up on lavender (fo and eo).  For some reason, it turns my soap yellow--not the whole bar--just the outside .  It starts light, but over the course of the cure, the whole outside changes to ugly yellow.  For a while, I thought the fragrance oil I was using had vanilla in it; the way the color slowly took over was like discoloration from vanilla.  But lavender 40/42 does the same thing.  I wish I new what was causing it.  I love lavender so much!

Indecently, the only time I've ever seen DOS on one of my bars, was with with a lavender bar (a mix of fo and eo).


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## Laurabolyard (Dec 28, 2017)

How long does it take dos to show up when using lavender?  I'm guessing it's not right away. I just made a batch HP,  I intended to give away, but I will keep a couple for observation.


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## Spice (Dec 29, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Thank you for sharing your journey of resolving a rather tricky issue -- I'm inspired by your patience and persistence. Well done. :clap:  :clap:  :clap:



I didn't know what was going on. I was baffled at first. Then I was alarmed. Then I was sicken. I tossed out a lot of soap.


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## Spice (Dec 29, 2017)

jewels621 said:


> How frustrating for you! I hope the joy of soaping comes back. And I hope the gremlins leave your home for good.



My joy was just last week when I made my first great soap. It felt like the first time. I just can't believe what it took. But I am very happy now.


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## Spice (Dec 29, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> Welcome back!
> 
> And I'm so sorry about your dogs.



I had my dogs for eleven years. I went through an operation, and a year 17  relationship break up with them, then homeless....I even had to borrow money to feed them.....but I never give them up.


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## Spice (Dec 29, 2017)

penelopejane said:


> So sorry to hear about your horrible year. I hope 2018 is much better for you.
> 
> I had a couple of batches that started getting yellow spots (about 1/2 an inch across) but it wasn’t DOS because it started to spread along the edges of the soap. I am pretty sure it was the FO turning the soap yellow. Perfect soap - some yellow all over some with yellow edges. I stopped using that FO and have had no further problem. Fingers crossed.  So difficult to pinpoint problems!
> 
> I do know that lavender EO can make soap prone to DOS but haven’t used it yet so have no experience with it.





cmzaha said:


> Your experiences are one of the reasons we tell newbies not to sell in less than a year or so. You need to know what your soap is going to do over time. Hopefully you get it worked out. I purchase my lye from a chem house and I get a COA and of course the MSDS with my purchase. Have you tried making single oils soaps with the lye you think is suspect, you can learn quit a bit about your recipe this way if you use the oils you normally soap with. If you use lard in high amounts in your soap it could be your lard that is the culprit. While I love the feel of lard it hates me when it comes to soap so I never go over 25%. Some will remember my lard test a few years ago using different brands available here and Farmer John was the very worst, but all came down with dos. Hope you get it worked out, but it can take months to work out





isha said:


> Sorry for your loss..  Hope u have an excellent 2018..
> It's great to read n learn from.  Your post.  Thanks for posting and appreciate your patience.
> Being a newbie, I had made a few batches n sold them all right out to known people.  They all loved it..  I did save few pieces of each batch.. . For observation



penelopejane, I thought it was DOS, at first, then when the entire bar was a yucky brownish yellow, I knew at that point I had something very bad. Yes I noticed it first with the Lavender EO.

cmzaha, what is a COA? I plan on sticking with the chem house that I have now and will ask for the MSDS too. I never used lard before, I have heard its a nice soap though. The thing about the lye, worries me because I used that for a year or more, it was  50 pounds of lye.

isha, Thanks, I have to admit, when I was a real young newbie....like my first batch....I sold my soap too.


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## Spice (Dec 29, 2017)

EssentialSuds said:


> Could it be your sunflower oil? This oil has a very short shelf life. It should be used within 3 months. How old is our sunflower oil?
> 
> Julie





shunt2011 said:


> Sunflower is actually a year and if high oleic it would be longer.





Relle said:


> Being a newbie, I wouldn't be selling your soap, even to friends. If you want their opinion, give them some, don't sell it., You have only been making soap for a couple of months ( your words). I think you need to read this thread - http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=16002



EssentialSuds, I did think it was the sunflower oil too, and one of my test batches was no sunflower oil....would have been nice, but no cigar.

shunt2011, thanks for that info, I had been wondering bout its shelf life, that's why I thought it could have been the sunflower oil. I am actually glad it wasn't, I like sunflower oil.

Relle, haven't seen the thread, but thanks and I will.


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## Spice (Dec 29, 2017)

toxikon said:


> It can certainly be difficult to pinpoint the cause of DOS. The main causes, as far as I know, are:
> 
> - not using distilled water
> - using old oils
> ...





Saranac said:


> I'm so sorry for your loss.  The hardest thing I've ever had to do was make that decision for a pet.  My first dog. . . and he filled such a whole in my heart.  But it was the humane thing to do. . .
> 
> As for the soap, I've given up on lavender (fo and eo).  For some reason, it turns my soap yellow--not the whole bar--just the outside .  It starts light, but over the course of the cure, the whole outside changes to ugly yellow.  For a while, I thought the fragrance oil I was using had vanilla in it; the way the color slowly took over was like discoloration from vanilla.  But lavender 40/42 does the same thing.  I wish I new what was causing it.  I love lavender so much!
> 
> Indecently, the only time I've ever seen DOS on one of my bars, was with with a lavender bar (a mix of fo and eo).





Laurabolyard said:


> How long does it take dos to show up when using lavender?  I'm guessing it's not right away. I just made a batch HP,  I intended to give away, but I will keep a couple for observation.



toxikon, that is interesting, your list got me with the, "high superfat", because out of all these batches, I think that if oils don't get a good trace, then it creates DOS. I usually do a 2% superfat anyway.

Saranac, for whatever reason, it seems that lavender was the one I used to see if my test batches were right now. When I finally figured that it was in the tracing, that's when the Lavender acted  right and that is when I noticed the difference. I would not mix FO/EO of Lavender together for that reason.

Laurabolyard, for my batches, It took a week, it started out so ever slightly, when that, I new it would be just a matter of time for it to turn. I don't think it was DOS, really......whatever it was, thank God, we got it figured out.


Thank You all for your replies and the kind words for my dogs, I will miss them so.


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## SaltedFig (Dec 30, 2017)

I am so sorry to hear that your loyal friends time was up. It's hard, living longer than the creatures we come to love.

Happy to hear that soaping is good for you again!


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## Spice (Dec 30, 2017)

Here is a pictures of the the mess and the triumph.:bunny:  HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.


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## Spice (Dec 30, 2017)

SaltedFig said:


> I am so sorry to hear that your loyal friends time was up. It's hard, living longer than the creatures we come to love.
> 
> Happy to hear that soaping is good for you again!



I need to learn to get a new language, I keep referring to my little pet that is left, "My dogs", or "I'll be back doggies". 11 year language is hard to change. They didn't suffer to much before I let them go.


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## cmzaha (Dec 30, 2017)

Spice said:


> penelopejane, I thought it was DOS, at first, then when the entire bar was a yucky brownish yellow, I knew at that point I had something very bad. Yes I noticed it first with the Lavender EO.
> 
> cmzaha, what is a COA? I plan on sticking with the chem house that I have now and will ask for the MSDS too. I never used lard before, I have heard its a nice soap though. The thing about the lye, worries me because I used that for a year or more, it was 50 pounds of lye.


 If you constantly open your container of lye you can be causing it to lose strength. I purchase in 50 lbs but master a couple of gallon at a time so I do not open the bucket often. You can also split the bag of lye into smaller buckets. COA is a certificate of Authentication and will give you info on the strength. MSDS should be standard paperwork from a chem house. Your lye could have been picking up moisture when you opened up the bucket to take out your lye thus weakening it a little each time. Some chem houses do sell in 25 lb or smaller increments which might be better for you.


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## SunRiseArts (Dec 31, 2017)

Sorry for your challenges Spice, and I really hope 2018 will be a better year for you!

I am not a fan of those natural colorants. I find them unpredictable, but it could be that I just don't know how to use them properly .... I prefer my micas!

Wishing and praying that 2018 is full of good vibes and positive outcomes for all!

I made MP for 10+ years, HP for a year and only started CP November 2016, then did not do it again until early 2017,  and would not even think about selling. Had my first bazar this December, and I do sell some MP occasionally on eBay. It would not even cross my mind to sell before, it scared me!

Not sure I want to do the whole farmers market selling thing. I do have an opportunity coming up and I am pondering it. But I think is not really worth it money wise.


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## isha (Dec 31, 2017)

Relle said:


> Being a newbie, I wouldn't be selling your soap, even to friends. If you want their opinion, give them some, don't sell it., You have only been making soap for a couple of months ( your words). I think you need to read this thread - http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=16002


This one soap I've been making for 2 years..  Which I sell.  Thanks for ur advice


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 31, 2017)

isha said:


> This one soap I've been making for 2 years..  Which I sell.  Thanks for ur advice


But the post Relle quoted was you saying that you sold it AS a newbie, back when you started. Her point being, what would happen if those pieces that you kept for observations went mouldy and disgusting after 3 months and you had already sold some bars?

Sorry for the hijack, spice. Sorry it was such a horrid year. Hope you get back in to the flow and are able to make soaps which meet your expectations again


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## Spice (Jan 1, 2018)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But the post Relle quoted was you saying that you sold it AS a newbie, back when you started. Her point being, what would happen if those pieces that you kept for observations went mouldy and disgusting after 3 months and you had already sold some bars?
> 
> Sorry for the hijack, spice. Sorry it was such a horrid year. Hope you get back in to the flow and are able to make soaps which meet your expectations again



I read Tabitha's post, that was great, when and if I ever get a brick and mortar place, this is where I will go to. I wonder if soaping will ever be predictable?  We mix FO/EO and hope for the best, knowing that every batch is different. We use micas vs natural colorants, neither is predictable. Our oils, we hope, have been processed to the fullest care of the vendor, but how often do we soapers, try and get away with a "little bit of this and that"? 

When something isn't right, if we know our product, we know it right away. We can see it, feel it, and sometimes smell it. Most soapers know when something isn't right. I was able to tell, something was wrong within 24 hrs, the soap was still in it's mold. I could tell by the way I ran my finger across the top. My hackles were straight up.


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## Spice (Jan 1, 2018)

SunRiseArts said:


> Sorry for your challenges Spice, and I really hope 2018 will be a better year for you!
> 
> I am not a fan of those natural colorants. I find them unpredictable, but it could be that I just don't know how to use them properly .... I prefer my micas!
> 
> ...



Where do you buy your micas at? I was going to see about getting into using micas.


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## SunRiseArts (Jan 1, 2018)

I buy most of my micas at justpigments.com, and they ship free if you spend 10 dollars, which is pretty cool.  Just make sure your mica is good for soap, it will say so in the description.

But I know you can find the at brambleberry, natures garden, nurture, etc.  Toxicon posted the other day a lavender soap which had a purple to die for,  and I think it was from nurture.


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## toxikon (Jan 1, 2018)

SunRiseArts said:


> I buy most of my micas at justpigments.com, and they ship free if you spend 10 dollars, which is pretty cool.  Just make sure your mica is good for soap, it will say so in the description.
> 
> But I know you can find the at brambleberry, natures garden, nurture, etc.  Toxicon posted the other day a lavender soap which had a purple to die for,  and I think it was from nurture.


Yes indeedy! Nurture micas are quite lovely.


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