# Room spray



## PippiL

To make room spray, which one of polysorbate is better to use 80 or 20 ?


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## lsg

I would think polysorbate 20.  You can also use rubbing alcohol with water and essential oils.  Just give it a shake before each use.


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## DeeAnna

Yes, the usual advice is to use PS 20 for solubilizing EOs. I have both polysorbates on hand because I followed that advice. What I've found over time, however, is that I get consistently better results with PS 80, no matter what I'm making. 

I did a room spray recently -- 50:50 mix of water and vodka, EO at 5% of total weight, and polysorbate. I decided to try PS 20 one last time. I had to add PS 20 at a rate equal to 6 times the EO weight before the solution remained reliably mixed and turned clear. That's a lot of polysorbate. 

Using PS 80 in a similar room spray recipe, I had to use a ratio of 2 to 3 parts PS 80 to 1 part EO by weight to get a stable mixture. A 2:1 ratio was slightly hazy but stayed reliably mixed. A 3:1 ratio was clear from the start.

I only use the absolute minimum amount of PS that's needed to get a stable mixture because I think it affects the scent somewhat. Also a lot of PS in a room spray can leave little spots wherever the mist lands because the PS doesn't evaporate like water, alcohol, and EOs.


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## LBussy

So if you are using 50:50 water/vodka, you are somewhere around 25% ETOH?


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## DeeAnna

More like 17% EtOH (ethyl alcohol, ethanol) if you assume 5% EO and 10% PS and the balance is 1/2 water and 1/2 vodka (my cheap vodka is 80 proof). That's going to be a reasonable % to act as a preservative. I don't see the point of going higher especially for something that shouldn't damage the finish on furniture, but I also wouldn't go any lower either.

Let's say there's 100 g of room spray. How much EtOH is in this mix?

The room spray contains 5 g EO and 10 g Polysorbate.
100 g total - 5 g EO - 10 g PS = 85 g of vodka-water mix

The vodka-water mix is 50% vodka.
85 g * 50/100 = 42.5 g vodka

80 proof vodka is 40% EtOH by volume. Let's also assume that's by weight to keep it simple tonight -- my brain isn't working too good right now.
42.5 g * 40/100 = 17 g EtOH

What % is EtOH in the 100 g of spray?
17/100 = 17%


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## lionprincess00

Deeanna, you're awesome. Thx for the educational hour! I had white cloudy spray with poly 20, distilled water and fo and optiphen. Now I have options to look into!


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## lillybella

What preservative did you use in the Room Spray, please?


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## LBussy

Thanks DeeAnna.  Yes I was doing "bonzai math" but I think you got where I was going with it.  I have cheap 90-something proof vodka (tastes horrible) and I also have 98% ETOH which for me is a little easier to use.  I figure it at 100% and the maths are easier on my poor widdle head.


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## DeeAnna

Lillybella -- LionPrincess is using optiphen as her preservative. I am using ethyl alcohol (EtOH) as my preservative. 

I don't quite remember how much EtOH is recommended by the experts for effective preservation of commercial products such as this room spray we're talking about. I estimate the EtOH should be at least 15% to 20% by weight in the finished product, going by my experiences making tinctures, wine, and mead. You'd want to double check and follow the experts' guidelines, however, if you're going to use EtOH for preservation in products you will be selling or giving away to others.

LionPrincess -- I'd gradually add more PS 20 to your room spray until the mixture clears. It's nice if you can mix the PS with the EO first, mix until the two are a uniform mixture, and then add the solvent (meaning the EtOH and/or water mixture). But you can add the PS to the finished mix if needed while you're trying to figure out the proper ratio.

What I've learned is that many recipes gives a single ratio of PS to EO, as if there's only one answer possible, but I've learned otherwise -- I pretty much use the recipe's ratio as a rough guideline.

I generally start with 2 parts PS to 1 part EO and work up from there -- 3:1, 4:1, etc. At some point, the liquid will turn from milky to translucent. With a bit more PS, it will turn from translucent to clear. It's kind of cool to see the change (except I get frustrated with how much PS 20 I usually have to add!) 

What I have noticed too is sometimes a mixture may be slightly translucent at first but will gradually clear on its own -- it might take a few days. If I have the patience, I'll let a translucent mixture sit for a few days and see if it clears on its own. If not, a dab more PS will do the trick.

There are other polysorbate products -- for example, I know there's a polysorbate 60. PS 60 might work as good or better than PS 80, but I haven't tried it (yet).


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## lionprincess00

So this explains why it took so much ps 20 to clear one bottle, and I understand now why the other one is milky. 
Really need to get a hold of ps 80. Thx again!!


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## LBussy

Where's a good place to get the PS 80?  My darling wife wanted me to make some for her so it seems like I need yet more supplies.


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## lionprincess00

I got ps20 from brambleberry, but I wouldn't recommend going there unless you're going to stock up on other things too (to cut down on the shipping). Lotioncrafter is good but they too have high shipping and a minimum 10$ purchase.I found some on eBay for [email protected] 13.19$ free shipping, so try there and Amazon too.


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## DeeAnna

I've gotten mine from Lotioncrafter and from Majestic Mountain Sage: https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Polysorbate-80.html Ditto on LP's advice about stocking up to keep shipping reasonable. 

If you want a sample, Lee, PM your address at me and I'll send ya some.


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## lillybella

If I am using alcohol in the form of witch hazel in a spray, then does that alcohol act as a preservative?


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## PippiL

Thank you DeeAnna as always.
I don't want to use alcohol,just PS.
I through an entire bottle of PS80 away,because it was older...:crazy:
I guess I have to get a new one.
I buy mine at soaper's choice, because I can pick up.


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## DeeAnna

Lillybella -- the alcohol in the witch hazel will be enough to preserve the witch hazel itself. But you're diluting that alcohol with more stuff -- water, EO, and PS -- so the concentration in your room spray mix probably isn't high enough to preserve the whole mixture.

Pippi -- You could certainly could use just water, PS, and EOs to make a room spray. The advantages of including alcohol is the spray will dry down faster and the alcohol acts as a preservative if the amount of alcohol in the product is high enough to kill cooties. If you don't want to use alcohol, it's really important to use a good broad-spectrum preservative if you're selling or giving the product away.


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## DeeAnna

In Post 5 (above) I made an assumption that I should not have. Here is the correct conversion:

The % of alcohol by weight (ABW) is different than % alcohol by volume (ABV). Drinkable spirits are sold by ABV, at least in the US, but we normally base recipes on units of weight. So you need to be able to convert ABV to ABW when using spirits in your recipes if you want to ensure your product has enough pure ethyl alcohol (EtOH) to function as a preservative. 

ABV = Proof / 2
ABW = ABV X 0.79336

Example 1: In the state of Iowa, Everclear (grain alcohol) is 151 proof. What is the ABV and ABW of this product?
ABV = 151/2 = 75.5%
ABW = 75.5 X 0.79336 = 59.9%

Example 2: In other US states, Everclear may legally be as high as 189 to 190 proof. What is the ABV and ABW of this product, assuming 190 proof?
ABV = 190/2 = 95%
ABW = 95 X 0.79336 = 75.4%

Example 3: Most vodka is 80 proof. What is the ABV and ABW of this product?
ABV = 80/2 = 40%
ABW = 40 X 0.79336 = 31.7% 

*** 

Here is the corrected version for the example I provided in Post 5:

The room spray contains 5 g EO and 10 g Polysorbate per 100 grams of product. How much vodka and water mix is in this 100 g of product?
vodka-water mix = 100 g total - 5 g EO - 10 g PS = 85 g

The vodka-water mix is 50% vodka and 50% water. How many grams of vodka is in the mix?
85 g * 50/100 = 42.5 g vodka

How much pure ethyl alcohol (EtOH) is in the vodka? From the examples above, 80 proof vodka is 40% ABV or 31.7% ABW. Since we're working in units of weight to make this recipe, the correct number to use is 31.7% ABW. 
42.5 g * 31.7/100 = 13.5 g EtOH

So the pure ethyl alcohol (EtOH) in 100 grams of room spray is 13.5 grams. So what % by weight is EtOH in this spray?
13.5/100 = 13.5% by weight

This amount of EtOH in this recipe is not quite enough to work well as a preservative -- the % of EtOH by weight should be no less than 20% ABW and preferably 25% ABW or higher for long term preservation. So ideally there should be more vodka and less water in the vodka-water mix to raise the ABW high enough to preserve the room spray. 

IMPORTANT: This post reflects my better understanding of using EtOH as a preservative, so it may conflict with advice I gave earlier in this thread.


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