# Dish soap (hard)



## Ukahela (Mar 31, 2017)

Hello!

I have never made soap, but my quest for a more environmental option to substitute for dish washing liquids makes me think I might like to try. 

I started using hard soap to reduce my plastic waste and transporting of water, but that leaves stains on the dishes. It cleans them, but together with the hard water of my town, there will still be marks making them look shabby.

So I tried a Lush soap with Sodium Lauryl Sulfate. Now this works very nicely - but it is expensive. The soap only contains, however, sodium lauryl sulfate + some perfumes and preservatives: sodium lauryl sulfate, Citrus aurantium dulcis, Carapa guaianensis, Citrus sinensis, ylang ylang (Cananga odorata), *benzyl benzoate, *benzyl salicylate, *farnesol, limonene, *linalool, alpha-isomethyl ionone, amyl cinnamal, geraniol, hydroxycitronellal, perfume, Cl 15510

So, how difficult might it be making soap oneself from sodium lauryl sulfate?


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## toxikon (Mar 31, 2017)

A 100% coconut oil recipe with 0% sf and citric acid might work well for you.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 31, 2017)

And hello to you, too.

A 100% CO soap is also quite easy to make.  You don't need the SLS or many of the other ingredients in the bought soap, not least of which because anything that doesn't begin with mixing lye and fats isn't actually soap.


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## Ukahela (Mar 31, 2017)

Thank you for your quick answers!



toxikon said:


> A 100% coconut oil recipe with 0% sf and citric acid might work well for you.





The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> And hello to you, too.
> 
> A 100% CO soap is also quite easy to make.  You don't need the SLS or many of the other ingredients in the bought soap, not least of which because anything that doesn't begin with mixing lye and fats isn't actually soap.



Ok, so if it isn't soap then let me correct myself: I want something that cleans my dishes .

I am using regular soap at the moment and am not really happy with the results, that's why I'd like to make something with SLS or a similarly efficient surfactant. 

The soap I use now cleans the fat, smells nice and is cheap. But it leaves streaks on my dishes which isn't great. This is a common problem of soaps, I believe, so I really would wish something efficient. How would a soap based on coconut oil differ from one made with say olive oil?


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## lionprincess00 (Mar 31, 2017)

Ukahela said:


> Thank you for your quick answers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I encourage you to read the first, 5 or 10, pages in the beginners forum. A simple way to search this site, easier for me at least, is go to google.com
Type in the search engine your question, then type the word site, a colon, and then website you want to search on. for example 

Coconut oil properties in soap site:www.soapmakingforum.com 

No spaces around your colons. Now all threads with this topic from our site pop up. It is a useful tool for me when I have specific questions.

To answer your question, coconut oil is one of several super cleansing oils once it has been saponified into soap. Olive oil isn't as stripping in soap. In other words it doesn't strip your skin of natual oils as well as CO does. It turns a bar slimey, so I've read countless times, and requires a good year long cure  (it is a castille soap). Check out the liquid soap making forum here. Many make liquid soap and it works too.

Sodium citrate, citric acid, or edta can be added to combat soap scum with hard water and help prevent soap residue. I use sodium citrate personally.

At this point, I suggest research. Research research research. Then gather supplies, and have a go at it. I literally spent 3 months learning about making soap before I ever made my 1st batch. It doesn't have to take months, but spending time learning all these things helps to understand the process and helps you to come up with a formula that will benefit what it is you are needing from that soap.


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## toxikon (Mar 31, 2017)

Ukahela said:


> Ok, so if it isn't soap then let me correct myself: I want something that cleans my dishes .



The recipe I gave you is for a hard bar of soap good for washing dishes.

Coconut oil is a very bubbly, cleansing oil. It will work perfectly for washing dishes - it also makes a great laundry soap/stain bar. You can use it at 100% - no other oils needed.

0% Superfat means that no oils will remain in your soap after curing. This is a good thing, because it won't leave any oils on your dishes. You want them to feel squeaky clean, so zero superfat is important.

Citric acid is an additive that reduces soap scum in hard water. Once again - important for dishes!

Now that you have your starting point - all you need to do is research. Learn how to use a soap calculator (Soapee is great) to calculate the size of your recipe and the amount of lye and water you'll need. Research on how to use citric acid and how it affects your superfat.

The forum is a wealth of information at your fingertips!

Edit: And if you're looking to make a syndet (synthetic detergent) bar instead of a lye soap, that's a whole other world I'm not really familiar with. I believe Susan's blog (Swifty Crafty Monkey - google it) has good information on syndets and SLS.


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## BrewerGeorge (Mar 31, 2017)

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the OP's concern is with spots left behind by soap scum.  Coming from an area with rock-hard water myself, syndet is just about the only option other than whole-house softening.  The chelators we use to help with soap scum for body and hand soaps probably won't be enough to handle an entire sink's worth of water for dishes.


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## dixiedragon (Mar 31, 2017)

You could try melt and pour:
https://www.chemistrystore.com/Melt_Pour_Soap-Crystal_Ultra_Clear.html

It has a lot of the same ingredients. Not sure if you want to make something from scratch?


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## IrishLass (Mar 31, 2017)

Ditto what Brewer George said. As wonderfully cleansing as a lye-based, 100% coconut oil soap is with a 0% superfat, it _will_ leave soap scum behind on your dishes, even with Tetrasodium EDTA added..... but there'll be less soap scum as compared to a soap _without_ EDTA added. At least that has been my experience with my own soap and my very hard water. The EDTA does indeed help, but it doesn't totally eliminate 100% of the scurrilous scum. However- rinsing the dishes off in vinegar works quite well as an antidote to that.....again- according to my own experience. 

My advice would be to either count on having a gallon of vinegar on hand at all times to rinse your dishes that were washed with your lye-based soap, or else buy some bulk melt & pour base to make your own solid syndet soap which you can further customize to your needs, both scent-wise or additive-wise. 


IrishLass


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## Seawolfe (Mar 31, 2017)

I think what you are running up against is the fact that SLS isnt great for skin (see this post about SLS), and also this is primarily a forum about soaps made from lye - ie true soaps.

That said, many here are interested in shampoo bars which DO use detergent (because lye soap isnt great for hair), and those use SLSa which is kinder and gentler than SLS. Check out this post about shampoo bars to see a recipe for a solid bar that uses SLSa: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/05/road-trip-essentials-solid-shampoo-bar.html

That said, I made a 100% Coconut oil solid soap for laundry that also works on my dishes. I also make a 100% coconut oil Liquid Soap that I do use for my dishes because its easier for me to use. Both of these contain citric acid, which cuts down on hard water spots and makes the soaps work better with my hard water.

So you have options


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## BrewerGeorge (Mar 31, 2017)

Honestly, I might try a bar of Dove.  It does have some soap, but syndet is the #1 ingredient.

All these questions revolve around how truly hard your "hard" water is, and how much of that "permanent" hardness vs "temporary" hardness. Water is generally labeled "hard" at about 120 ppm, and at that level many of the typical solutions can be effective.  But for me here in limestone country, our water is over 600 ppm, where nothing but ion-exchange softening works at all.  You can usually call your water company and ask them a typical hardness level, or the county if you're on a well, to get a starting point for just how much hardness you need to combat.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 31, 2017)

I agree with BrewerGeorge that sometimes "real" soap doesn't do the job and your situation may be one of them. If you want to make a simple synthetic detergent mix for dishwashing, I'd suggest a blend of SLS with one other syndet, distilled water, and scent. (Bear in mind that I'm no expert at formulating recipes for synthetic detergents!) 

The mixture of two dissimilar types of surfactants will be milder and less drying than just SLS alone, which is well known for being irritating to the skin. For example Dawn Dishwashing liquid has several surfactants -- the two main ones are Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (SLS) and Sodium Laureth Sulfate (SLES). 

You can by surfactants at various suppliers; I get stuff like this from The Chemistry Connection, http://www.saveoncitric.com/

Helpful links at The Chem Connection: 
http://www.saveoncitric.com/suintiandfo.html
http://www.saveoncitric.com/surfactants.html


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## Ukahela (Mar 31, 2017)

Wow, what an active forum this was – thank you all for your input! 8) 

I really don't know the level of hardness of the water of my area, I just know (from experience) that it is semi-hard to hard.

But so I think that to start with, I'll try (buy) a coconut soap that matches the description above to test how it performs on my dishes; and if not satisfactory I will try making the "syndet" bar that many of you mention, since the shampoo bar works so nicely.

Thank you guys!


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## Ukahela (Mar 31, 2017)

Also very good with the different forms of surfactants and benefits of combining them! This is all really great, looking forward to start some mixing :mrgreen:


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## BrewerGeorge (Mar 31, 2017)

Kirk's Coco Castille is widely available and is 100% coconut oil.  Cheap, too.


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## dixiedragon (Mar 31, 2017)

Perhaps coconut soap and a vinegar rinse?

https://www.google.com/search?q=hard+water+AND+vinegar#spf=1

Also, I am assuming (I think we all are) that you are talking about washing dishes in the sink, not washing dishes in a dishwasher?

If not---soap is way to bubbly to use in a dishwasher. Once I put some dishes in the dishwasher that were a bit too soap and pink peppermint foam came out of the bottom. It looked like my dishwasher had rabies.

My floor was super clean and my kitchen smelled awesome, and it got rid of my sugar ant problem.


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## cherrycoke216 (Mar 31, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> Also, I am assuming (I think we all are) that you are talking about washing dishes in the sink, not washing dishes in a dishwasher?
> 
> If not---soap is way to bubbly to use in a dishwasher. Once I put some dishes in the dishwasher that were a bit too soap and pink peppermint foam came out of the bottom. It looked like my dishwasher had rabies.
> 
> My floor was super clean and my kitchen smelled awesome, and it got rid of my sugar ant problem.




I'm sorry that I laugh so hard reading this. Seems like the scene in the movies. And very cute description of dishwasher had rabies!!! 
 Ditto everyone said. If the water is too hard, maybe synthetic detergent is the way or true soap with vinegar rinse. 
Assuming hand washing dishes. In Asia, we wear gloves while dish washing. I didn't get it as a child, until now that I realize so that synthetic detergents won't dry out hands.


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## toxikon (Mar 31, 2017)

cherrycoke216 said:


> I'm sorry that I laugh so hard reading this. Seems like the scene in the movies. And very cute description of dishwasher had rabies!!!
> Ditto everyone said. If the water is too hard, maybe synthetic detergent is the way or true soap with vinegar rinse.
> Assuming hand washing dishes. In Asia, we wear gloves while dish washing. I didn't get it as a child, until now that I realize so that synthetic detergents won't dry out hands.



Same here, I always always use gloves while washing the dishes. My poor hands are dry enough as it is.


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## dixiedragon (Mar 31, 2017)

I use gloves too. Because of the hot water, the drying dish soap and also all that grease and food in the dishwater is gross.


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## earlene (Apr 1, 2017)

If your goal is to reduce plastics, which I believe is a very valid and essential goal for our global environment, there are a couple of other options besides making your own soap.  You can buy in bulk (much larger containers of dish soap) and refill a smaller bottle that you re-use over and over again.  I have done this for many years with dish soap and what I actually use for sink-side is an old Noxzema pump bottle.   A large 1-gallon bottle of dish soap lasts me about 4-6 months.  You can get Dish Soap in 1 gallon bottles at Sam's Club, Costco, Restaurant Supply stores, Office Supply stores, and a variety of online sources.  When I last ran out of dishwashing liquid & Sam's Club was transitioning from their old product to a new different product (not yet on the shelves at the time), I went to the Dollar Store in town and bought a 2.5 liter bottle (the largest they had in stock) and use that for refilling my smaller bottle.  

Granted, there are still plastic bottles which need to be recycled, but far fewer than if I were purchasing a new small sized bottle each time I want more dish washing liquid. 

In some a cases you can even buy 5-gallon buckets of dish washing liquid, but storing such a size might be problematic for many consumers, so generally those are more often purchased by businesses with sufficient space.

Dollar-type Stores all over the US seem to carry the Kirk's Coco Castile that BrewerGeorge mentioned, so yes, it should be easy to find if you are in the US.  Walmart also carries it, but I don't know about it's availability internationally.  (I mention this because I don't know where you are located.)


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## Soapmaker145 (Apr 1, 2017)

Ukahela said:


> Hello!
> 
> I have never made soap, but my quest for a more environmental option to substitute for dish washing liquids makes me think I might like to try.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure where you are located since you're "transporting water" and what type of surfactants you have access to.  However, if you want to use SLS, it's very easy.  It's supplied in a ready to use form.  You can make a bar or to be more efficient and reduce waste, make a 1% to 10% solution and have it ready in a recycled bottle.  It'll be a thin solution but you can thicken it if you want.  1% solution is super cleansing and will dry your skin.  With SLS and other surfactants, you need to wear a mask when you weigh them.  Don't inhale the dust.

Reusing plasticware is the best option.  The bottle I have at my sink is at least 5 years old.  I've refilled it countless times.


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## cherrycoke216 (Apr 1, 2017)

Soapmaker145 said:


> 1% solution is super cleansing and will dry your skin.  With SLS and other surfactants, you need to wear a mask when you weigh them.  Don't inhale the dust.




DITTO this! I have bought SLS powder form recently. And while weighting, the dust just goes everywhere! I mean, EVERYWHERE,literally!!! And I wear a paper mask like the doctors wear in the movies, it still went in my nose and I cannot stop coughing!!! It just happened that I'm having a flu, and SLS powder worsen it. My nose is runny and congested. I can't cough out the phlegm even it makes my ribs hurt. And if I cough out something, it's usually spit. And I don't remember my saliva was THIS BUBBLY!!! I even google "inhale SLS powder", haha! It is disastrous. This is no joke. Wear some special filter mask when using SLS powder. Or use a spoon to transfer it into the bowl. Don't go shaking the bag, it will be more dust in the air!!!

On a side note, anyone knows SLS besides powder, needle form, and SLS solution form? Is there other form of SLS?


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## Ukahela (Apr 2, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> Perhaps coconut soap and a vinegar rinse?
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=hard+water+AND+vinegar#spf=1
> 
> ...



:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

I certainly appreciate people who are not scared of trying things! But yes I hand wash since I have no dishwasher, and I use gloves 





earlene said:


> If your goal is to reduce plastics, which I believe is a very valid and essential goal for our global environment, there are a couple of other options besides making your own soap.  You can buy in bulk (much larger containers of dish soap) and refill a smaller bottle that you re-use over and over again.



Well, that used to be an option but no longer possible; refill isn't allowed by law anymore in Finland – also not for detergents etc. (because of the Finnish interpretation of EU regulations).

By "transport water" I meant the fact that liquid detergents are mostly water and so much more weight than required for just the soap, ie. hard soap. If they weren't so expensive I'd just use Lush products.

But I'm also very fond of everything DIY and like to try things. So at the moment I'm exploring that option, with great help from the very informative posts in this thread!


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## earlene (Apr 2, 2017)

*Ukahela*, there is a thread by *Susie*, that includes a liquid dishwashing soap she makes using KOH lye (for liquid soapmaking).  I have never done her recipe myself, but if you want more information about making your own dishwashing soap, this might be a place to start.  See post # 3 with the heading 'Dish or Laundry Soap'.  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Liquid Soap starts out as a paste, that you later add more water to when ready to make it the correct consistency.  It might be a good way to go, because you start out with a very concentrated and thick glob of soap paste for storage.  Then you just take as much as you need to add water when you are ready to use it.  

Thus you can use a re-usable bottle (I am sure you can find a bottle among your possessions to become your re-usable dishwashing bottle in your own home) to add the necessary water for your sink-side dishwashing soap.

I have only made Liquid Soap once, and still have some of the soap paste in a small bucket. (I use my soap paste to make shaving soap for my personal use when shaving my legs.) The paste keeps quite well in the airtight seal so I think this might work for you with your intended purpose.


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## Susie (Apr 2, 2017)

cherrycoke216 said:


> I'm sorry that I laugh so hard reading this. Seems like the scene in the movies. And very cute description of dishwasher had rabies!!!
> Ditto everyone said. If the water is too hard, maybe synthetic detergent is the way or true soap with vinegar rinse.
> Assuming hand washing dishes. In Asia, we wear gloves while dish washing. *I didn't get it as a child, until now that I realize so that synthetic detergents won't dry out hands.*



Synthetic detergents can be VERY drying to hands.  Do wear your gloves no matter what you are washing with.  

If I were you, I would probably make a liquid soap (made with potassium hydroxide) paste with some sort of synthetic detergent and EDTA in it.  Washing dishes by hand is easier with the paste than a bar for me.  NOTE:  I would NOT dilute it.  It is easier to use a dab of the paste on your cloth than the liquid that loses bubbles too fast.

ETA:  I just saw the post above mine.  I appreciate that, Earlene, but I have very soft water.  I understand that it makes a huge difference.

*"I'm not sure where you are located since you're "transporting water" and what type of surfactants you have access to."*

I rather think the OP is referring to the shipping of a diluted product, as opposed to using a bar that contains little or no water.  In some areas of the EU, everything must be shipped in as they have little or no manufacturing, and shipping is costly.


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