# True 'Wine' (Transparent) Soap Tests



## Richard Perrine (Sep 22, 2018)

I was inspired by this thread:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/wine-soap.71509/

I also wondered what the hoopla was about and found the idea intriguing. I followed some of the tutorials online and found most were using artificial colours and fragrances to get a 'wine' soap. I wondered though and tested out an idea that I had while visiting the above thread. I chose two wines with high sugar content to help with the transparency and lather. Two sweet moscatos. Also an excuse to buy them to indulge. :-D

RESULTS:
1. Color of my bars are close to the colour of the original wine used (red moscato). I asked several family members and it was mixed as some thought it a little 'browner' than the original color while others thought it spot on. Perception 
2. Though not as sweet, there is clearly a 'wine' fragrance in the bars from the original wine used. There is barely any alcohol residue (aromatic) and some did not smell it at all.

NO additional or artificial colouring or fragrance was added to this soap below. We'll see what happens over the days to see if color changes or fragrance changes. The two dark bars are the wine bars. The smaller, sample-sized bar really shows the transparency and color. 





I will try using one of my favorite white moscato wines next.


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## msunnerstood (Sep 22, 2018)

Very cool!


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## Richard Perrine (Sep 22, 2018)

msunnerstood said:


> Very cool!


I am very pleased with the initial results. Hope both the colour and fragrance hold.


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## msunnerstood (Sep 22, 2018)

Richard Perrine said:


> I am very pleased with the initial results. Hope both the colour and fragrance hold.


We have a vineyard right up the road from us and I have considered making soap from their wine.


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## Richard Perrine (Sep 22, 2018)

msunnerstood said:


> We have a vineyard right up the road from us and I have considered making soap from their wine.



That would be sweet! Sell your soaps to them advertising that their wines were used! Great marketing model! Holy crap, msunnerstood, you have given  me an idea!


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## msunnerstood (Sep 22, 2018)

Richard Perrine said:


> That would be sweet! Sell your soaps to them advertising that their wines were used! Great marketing model! Holy crap, msunnerstood, you have given  me an idea!


Not My Idea, amd started it with beer soaps and breweries


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## Richard Perrine (Sep 22, 2018)

msunnerstood said:


> Not My Idea, amd started it with beer soaps and breweries


Well, it wasn't something I was thinking of until YOU mentioned it.  Testing my recipe test with white wine now.


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## KimT2au (Sep 23, 2018)

WOW @Richard Perrine , I love the colour and the transparency.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 1, 2018)

Hi all. Kim recently contacted me and it got me thinking about my wine soap tests.  I have found that the bar, after a couple of days and testing, does not retain its 'sweet' wine odor. The color also turns a more brownish color, but still transparent. I will be testing the following:

Some recommendations that I will be testing:
1. Add equal volume of water to lye to create the solution. DO not mix wine with lye.
2. Blend the soap to trace and allow to set to allow as much of the lye to react with the oils to saponification
3. Add remaining volume of wine into the slurry after the soap has gone through the stages of HP, but only after the sugar water and glycerin have been mixed and heated.
4. Allow the soap mixture to heat for an additional 15-20 min (?). This will help dissipate much of the alcohol, but still utilize the transparent props it contributes to.

Don't know if this makes sense, but in my head it does.  I am simply trying to minimize the contact that the wine solids have with the lye which creates something a lot leas pleasant after a day or two.


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## msunnerstood (Oct 1, 2018)

I hot process my  Wine soap and what I did was that I started with a 50% water discount and added the wine at the end of the cook for the other 50%.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 1, 2018)

msunnerstood said:


> I hot process my  Wine soap and what I did was that I started with a 50% water discount and added the wine at the end of the cook for the other 50%.


Yes. Sounds great! How much of the original wine color/fragrance do you get? I do not use any coloring or fragrances. I actually discovered another method that could prove to be either eye-opening or a total dud.


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## Megan (Oct 1, 2018)

Beautiful! You will definitely have to keep us updated on how the fragrance and color holds.

Edit:
Sorry, apparently I didn't look closely above about the fragrance. Still very cool though. I really want to try transparent soap, but I'm a bit chicken right now.


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## SaltedFig (Oct 1, 2018)

Richard,

From your other thread I noticed that you were having trouble with the integrity of the soap.



Richard Perrine said:


> Hi Kim. I used the sweetest red Moscato I could find. Barefoot Red Moscato. I must warn you that I continue to experiment with this. It turns out that the integrity of the soap becomes compromised and the nice wine odor does not last. I need to further test and investigate. The key is to minimize the wine with the lye. I have some ideas and will test later.



Is it possible that the water to alcohol ratio is skewed too far towards water, when you use wine as the solvent base?

I am enjoying reading your adventures, but I've been wanting to ask you - does the sugar based solution cause rubberiness/sweating in your soap? I've used high sugar (below the amount that causes too much rubberiness) and the sweating stabilizes, but I haven't gone as high as you are using, so I'm curious


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 1, 2018)

Hi. I am not certain exactly what is happening. I'm testing a few things at once. I really cook my soap through the stages expected in HP and cook much longer afterwards, so I suspect that excess water content is not an issue. Also, these tests are using my transparent soap recipe which works beautifully for me and does not leave my soaps rubbery nor do I get any sweating. I'm in Utah and it's relatively dry. Would that make a difference? You are in Australia. Humid where you live?

The integrity I speak of is the fragrance and somewhat of the color. I truly believe the reaction with the NaOH is what the problem is. I need to find a way to minimize contact with the wine and unreacted NaOH....or find another process.


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## SaltedFig (Oct 1, 2018)

Yes, it gets humid (sometimes almost tropical, but mostly Mediterranean type weather). I think that does make a difference to soap sweating.

I've only heard of the rubbery for high sugar soaps, but never experienced it (and you are using the most amount of sugar I know of anyone) - thanks for letting me know that your's aren't rubbery - that's really interesting !

For wine soaps, I simmer them down to a syrup. The colour is intensified in the syrup, but most of the alcohol is lost in the process. Maybe that would work for you, if you add it after the cook? I don't know that you could save the scent - I tend to boost it with herbs (a bit like a mulled wine )


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## msunnerstood (Oct 1, 2018)

Richard Perrine said:


> Yes. Sounds great! How much of the original wine color/fragrance do you get? I do not use any coloring or fragrances. I actually discovered another method that could prove to be either eye-opening or a total dud.


Color was a challenge.as soon as it hit the batter it turned gray and I had to add Mica. Quite a bit of the fragrance stayed though.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 1, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Yes, it gets humid (sometimes almost tropical, but mostly Mediterranean type weather). I think that does make a difference to soap sweating.
> 
> I've only heard of the rubbery for high sugar soaps, but never experienced it (and you are using the most amount of sugar I know of anyone) - thanks for letting me know that your's aren't rubbery - that's really interesting !
> 
> For wine soaps, I simmer them down to a syrup. The colour is intensified in the syrup, but most of the alcohol is lost in the process. Maybe that would work for you, if you add it after the cook? I don't know that you could save the scent - I tend to boost it with herbs (a bit like a mulled wine )



Hi again. I actually did exactly that... heated down my white moscato to a syrup and then dumped it. Wasn't quite sure what I really wanted to do with it.  It did turn out to be a lovely, more golden hue. I may revisit this for the color. I also realize that part of the wine scent we smell is necessarily the alcohol content. So, if I vape off all of the alcohol, will it still smell like wine? I have a couple of tests I will conduct tonight. Totally new for me and may revolutionize MY soap making skills...or not.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 1, 2018)

msunnerstood said:


> Color was a challenge.as soon as it hit the batter it turned gray and I had to add Mica. Quite a bit of the fragrance stayed though.



I am making transparent soap, so perhaps the color isn't affected as much? Or not as affected b/c of the light color of the batter? I do recall in my early days of baking that mixing some bluish dyes with white batter sometimes created a weird greyish color instead.


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## KimT2au (Oct 1, 2018)

Richard Perrine said:


> Hi again. I actually did exactly that... heated down my white moscato to a syrup and then dumped it. Wasn't quite sure what I really wanted to do with it.  It did turn out to be a lovely, more golden hue. I may revisit this for the color. I also realize that part of the wine scent we smell is necessarily the alcohol content. So, if I vape off all of the alcohol, will it still smell like wine? I have a couple of tests I will conduct tonight. Totally new for me and may revolutionize MY soap making skills...or not.



I would not have thought that cooking off the alcohol would be a problem with the aroma as you get non-al wines and you also cook with wine and get a lovely aroma.  I wait with baited breath for an update on your results, @Richard Perrine


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 1, 2018)

KimT2au said:


> I would not have thought that cooking off the alcohol would be a problem with the aroma as you get non-al wines and you also cook with wine and get a lovely aroma.  I wait with baited breath for an update on your results, @Richard Perrine



Hmmmm...good point, Kim. I don't remember ever having non-alcoholic wine in the past, but very good point. In fact, I decided to change my approach. You've given me another idea.


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## SaltedFig (Oct 2, 2018)

I think it's the lye that's the problem, not so much the cooking 

(I'm enjoying your adventures!)


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## KimT2au (Oct 2, 2018)

Richard Perrine said:


> Hmmmm...good point, Kim. I don't remember ever having non-alcoholic wine in the past, but very good point. In fact, I decided to change my approach. You've given me another idea.



When I was visiting a friend on the other side of Australia recently (I mention this part as it is too far to go visit again any time soon) she took me to meet a friend of hers that made his own grape juice and it was *amazing*.  He made it every year and some of it was about 16 years old.  He was a strict teetotaler so nothing to cause alcoholic fermentation had been added to the juice.   I tried some of the 16 year old juice and it was like drinking a gorgeous port, you would not have realised it was not alcoholic, except you could drink it by the tumbler full and still safely drive home    I wish I could go get some of that juice now as I would like to experiment.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 2, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> I think it's the lye that's the problem, not so much the cooking
> 
> (I'm enjoying your adventures!)



Absolutely. I am digging into my science background and the art/science of soap making (of what little I know) to wrap my head around this. I love trying out new and 'uncertain' things with soap. Ack, wish I had taken up this hobby years ago.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 2, 2018)

KimT2au said:


> When I was visiting a friend on the other side of Australia recently (I mention this part as it is too far to go visit again any time soon) she took me to meet a friend of hers that made his own grape juice and it was *amazing*.  He made it every year and some of it was about 16 years old.  He was a strict teetotaler so nothing to cause alcoholic fermentation had been added to the juice.   I tried some of the 16 year old juice and it was like drinking a gorgeous port, you would not have realised it was not alcoholic, except you could drink it by the tumbler full and still safely drive home    I wish I could go get some of that juice now as I would like to experiment.


'Teetotaler?"  Wow, how did he store the juice? Anyway, I am currently looking for non or 'de-acoholized' wine. I live in Utah, so it shouldn't be a problem, right? Or local liquor stores simply will scoff at the idea of carrying it...


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## KimT2au (Oct 3, 2018)

Richard Perrine said:


> 'Teetotaler?"  Wow, how did he store the juice? Anyway, I am currently looking for non or 'de-acoholized' wine. I live in Utah, so it shouldn't be a problem, right? Or local liquor stores simply will scoff at the idea of carrying it...




He bottles it like they do wine.  He has loads of equipment.  It really is amazing juice.  He had boxes and boxes in his garage.  He regularly gives it away to family and friends.  I could have brought some home with me, I wish I had thought of it.  Our local grocery stores sell non-al  wines but you have to go to a bottle shop to purchase regular alcoholic wine.


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## SaltedFig (Oct 3, 2018)

Would Verjuice work, to get the scent of the grapes?


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 3, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Would Verjuice work, to get the scent of the grapes?


Had to look that up.  Can't hurt to try.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 6, 2018)

I have changed my approach. Instead of using the sweetest wine I could find, I have chosen to work with the dryest and full aroma. My test involved a pinot grigio. Dark, full aroma and DRY (very little to no sugar).



1. Used 50ml of the wine
2. Concentrated it down to ~20ml by carefully microwaving, stirring. Also removed most of the alcohol. The remaining liquid was definitely darker (wine solids) and the aroma intact for the most part. I am still convinced that alcohol also plays a part in our perception of what the wine smells like.
3. Used my newly modified transparent recipe. Added the concentrated wine at about 1-oz per 1-lbs of oils. (15-ml for the two bars). The deep purple immediately turned to a more blue color when it came in contact with the transparent soap slurry in the crock pot. I suspect it has a lot or all to do with the alkaline conditions of the soap.
4. No question to the color. There is a deep purple/blue color that remains in the soap. Also, the concentration of the wine solids creates an opaque soap, barely translucent.
5. I believe it will prove to be a better color than previous test soap. I also feel that the aroma will be 'cleaner' w/o the burnt odor of previous soap test. I will test again using the same wine, but not concentrating as much as I did here. Perhaps only reducing to 65-70% of the volume so that it will create bars that are less opaque. I took a 5mm slice of the soap and it does appear to be transparent (translucent). 

I have another idea. I will test soon and share.


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## KimT2au (Oct 6, 2018)

You are a mine of energy, @Richard Perrine .  When you reduce the wine, what about filtering the solids out so you get a clearer bar? I can't wait to see the results.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 6, 2018)

KimT2au said:


> You are a mine of energy, @Richard Perrine .  When you reduce the wine, what about filtering the solids out so you get a clearer bar? I can't wait to see the results.


Kim. I just put up a pic of a sliver of the soap. It does seem to be transparent/translucent. I didn't think of doing that as I hoped to utilize the solids for color and fragrance. Naive of me. I believe filtering it out would help! I definitely don't need to worry about retaining the colour of the wine. Now working on ANY aroma I can get.


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## KimT2au (Oct 7, 2018)

I got some wine tonight and I guess I could have experimented on soap but darn it, I drank it instead.  The only down side was that I burned dinner, something I have not done in years.  My only excuse was that I found out a friend had died suddenly and very unexpectedly overnight and match that with the 3 glasses of wine while preparing dinner lead to burnt offerings.  Luckily no one in the family complained.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 7, 2018)

KimT2au said:


> I got some wine tonight and I guess I could have experimented on soap but darn it, I drank it instead.  The only down side was that I burned dinner, something I have not done in years.  My only excuse was that I found out a friend had died suddenly and very unexpectedly overnight and match that with the 3 glasses of wine while preparing dinner lead to burnt offerings.  Luckily no one in the family complained.


Kim,

I must admit I had mixed emotions. Laughing and condolences. Sorry about your loss. Plenty of wine around to test later. I hope you are well.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 7, 2018)

Okay. Latest test...


A little bluish, but there is wine fragrance present.  I will wait a couple of days to see if it fades. I also have another test to do. I was hoping to find some ingenious way to make ALL natural wine soap, but the final product may not be so ingenious after all.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 11, 2018)

It has been 3 days and the small sample test of wine soap has definitely retained its wine aroma. Not strong, but clearly present. I placed the small bar into a ziplock bag for a few hours and came back to it greeted by the aroma once opened. 

Does anyone know of very dry red, strongly aromatic wines? Something affordable that I can test?


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## KimT2au (Oct 12, 2018)

Richard Perrine said:


> Does anyone know of very dry red, strongly aromatic wines? Something affordable that I can test?



I'd ask at your local bottle shop and see what they recommend.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 12, 2018)

KimT2au said:


> I'd ask at your local bottle shop and see what they recommend.


Planning on it today.


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## Suzy Knight (Oct 13, 2018)

Richard Perrine said:


> Hi all. Kim recently contacted me and it got me thinking about my wine soap tests.  I have found that the bar, after a couple of days and testing, does not retain its 'sweet' wine odor. The color also turns a more brownish color, but still transparent. I will be testing the following:
> 
> Some recommendations that I will be testing:
> 1. Add equal volume of water to lye to create the solution. DO not mix wine with lye.
> ...


"DO not mix wine with lye." I must say I learned that one the hard way! Lol.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 13, 2018)

Suzy Knight said:


> "DO not mix wine with lye." I must say I learned that one the hard way! Lol.


Suzy,

Been there, done that and I completely agree.  My first wine test involved mixing the wine with the lye and it turned out lovely in terms of colour, but the residual fragrance, or should I say, 'odor', was not so great. My recent tests have been much more pleasant aromatically.


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## Richard Perrine (Oct 14, 2018)

It's been a busy weekend of experimenting. I have found a way to address the fragrance so that there is one, but finding a way to maintain more of it is on-going. I have experimented with changing the pH of the bar to something less alkaline and harsh and closer to that of wine and my initial results are giving me some ideas. Wine is already very acidic (pH 2-3) and so trying to make the base soap closer to that is tricky. 


From left to right...the concentration of citric acid has been increased. You can see the elastic nature of the far right bar as the more acidic conditions prevented complete saponification. But, the far left bar especially, is a bar whose pH is close to neutral (at least that's what the pH test indicates). The bars have been coloured with wine and are transparent. I am hoping to modify the pH to help with colour and fragrance issues. Who knows?


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## Dawni (Oct 15, 2018)

I have nothing to add in terms of help lol but I'm curious if old wine will work? 

I remember some months back my dad's fridge had a couple of opened bottles that he said isn't drinkable anymore.... 

I also now wonder about old, homemade wine lol coz yes, we have a whole bucket of that haha


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