# Lavender scent pricing



## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

Hi all.  I am new to soap making, so I have a lot of questions to ask all you kind experienced people!

I want to make lavender scented goat milk soap.  The lavender EO is soooooooooooo expensive!!  2 oz. for $16.13 including shipping!  At 1 oz per 2 lb loaf (8 bars), that comes to $1 of frgrance per bar!!  Without counting shipping, that comes to $195 for 16 oz as opposed to 22.35 for lemongrass!!

Is this what everyone uses?  The expensive EO?  Or do you use something else?  I have bought laundry detergent that had either scent and both jars had the same price, so I am thinking that they must be using something else?

I called a vendor and they said that they had "Lavender Water (all natural) Fragrance Oil."  Will this do?  Has anyone used this product to scent your soaps?


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 8, 2015)

Where do you live?  If you are in the US you can check out some of the soap suppliers: Nature's Garden, New Directions Aromatics, Brambleberry, Soapmaking Resource, Liberty Naturals etc.


----------



## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> Where do you live?  If you are in the US you can check out some of the soap suppliers: Nature's Garden, New Directions Aromatics, Brambleberry, Soapmaking Resource, Liberty Naturals etc.



In US.  Bought 2 oz fm Bulk Apothecary.  BB has similar pricing.  Too expensive to use!  So, am looking for cheaper alternatives, if there are any.  There are some on Amazon for half the price, but still too high, compared to the lemongrass.


----------



## galaxyMLP (Dec 8, 2015)

Lavender EO is one of the cheaper oils. There are many different sources for lavender EO. Amazon has one with free prime shipping. 4 oz for only 13 something. I tested it and it is indeed lavender EO. It is not 40/42 EO though. Its Bulgarian lavender which is the more floral one. Mikes fragrances also has some lavender EO for a pretty good price. I've also heard others use Camden Grey.


----------



## traderbren (Dec 8, 2015)

Some people also use fragrance oils instead of Essential Oils to keep their cost down. It's a matter of personal preference.


----------



## penelopejane (Dec 8, 2015)

You don't use 1 oz of EO for a 2lb loaf. You use drops of it. Can someone please tell narnia how many drops to use?

You might use 1 oz of FO. That is why the price is different.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 8, 2015)

1.6oz is 5% of the 32oz that make up two pound. I would use that much lavender for that size batch


----------



## dixiedragon (Dec 8, 2015)

Camden Grey:
2 oz. ($6.50)
4 oz. ($11.25):
8 oz. ($18.50):

As for the amount to use, I like Brambleberry's fragrance calculator. Because I'm lazy. According to it, you'd need 1.6 oz for a strong scent in 32 oz of soap.

ETA: Camden Grey is in Florida, and since I'm in Alabama, I use them b/c the shipping to me is pretty fast and reasonable. Liberty Naturals also gets good reviews here.

Generally, FO companies don't have particularly good prices on EOs. Better than the health food store, certainly. I tend to build a list of stuff I want from CG - EOs and some carrier oils, then place a larger order.


----------



## DeeAnna (Dec 8, 2015)

I agree with The Gent. The typical rate for most EOs and FOs in CP soap is somewhere between 3% (0.5 oz ppo) and 6% (1 oz ppo). Even in HP soap, lotions, balms, and other B&B products, I'd use 0.5% to 1% EO by weight of finished product. I'm speaking about EOs that are fairly safe ones for use on the skin -- lavender falls in that category. If you just used a few drops of lavender EO ppo in soap, you'd never smell it.


----------



## shunt2011 (Dec 8, 2015)

penelopejane said:


> You don't use 1 oz of EO for a 2lb loaf. You use drops of it. Can someone please tell narnia how many drops to use?
> 
> You might use 1 oz of FO. That is why the price is different.


 
I would use 1.5oz in a 32 oz batch or a bit more.  Drops will not give you much of anything afterward.


----------



## dixiedragon (Dec 8, 2015)

I don't love Bulk Apothecary's prices, generally. I think they're good if you need to get a bunch of different types of items, b/c of their variety, but you can find better prices on most things elsewhere.


----------



## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

Is lavender fragrance oil just as strong a the EO?  And, is the fragrance oil all natural?  Can it irritate skin?  What about that "lavender water" thingy?


----------



## hmlove1218 (Dec 8, 2015)

I second Camden Grey. I got an 8 oz bottle for under $20. Shipping is about $10 for the discount option, so I usually purchase more than one thing at a time to make it worth it


----------



## SplendorSoaps (Dec 8, 2015)

If you're willing to look at FOs intead of EOs, the cost will be significantly lower.

Also, beware of who you're buying EOs from. One of the first times I bought Lavender EO for soap making I bought it on Amazon or eBay (can't remember which), thinking that it was a good price. The order came, and I don't even know what the heck they sent me. It smelled like dirty lemons, not a THING like any kind of lavender. Lesson learned! It's always worth it to pay a little extra to go with a reputable supplier.


----------



## dixiedragon (Dec 8, 2015)

narnia said:


> Is lavender fragrance oil just as strong a the EO? And, is the fragrance oil all natural? Can it irritate skin? What about that "lavender water" thingy?


 
Lavender FO can be just as stronger or stronger than the EO. It also tends to stick a bit better. Fragrance oil is NOT all natural.

"Can it irritate skin?" Anything can irritate skin. There are folks who can use EOs and not FOs, and vice versa. Folks who can't stand olive oil. Folks who can't use coconut oil. 

The lavender water is not appropriate for soaping. Lavender EO is very highly concentrated. I am assuming the lavender water is intended for direct skin application? It is probably water, preservative and a few drops of lavender EO or FO.


----------



## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

dixiedragon said:


> Lavender FO can be just as stronger or stronger than the EO. It also tends to stick a bit better. Fragrance oil is NOT all natural.
> 
> "Can it irritate skin?" Anything can irritate skin. There are folks who can use EOs and not FOs, and vice versa. Folks who can't stand olive oil. Folks who can't use coconut oil.
> 
> The lavender water is not appropriate for soaping. Lavender EO is very highly concentrated. I am assuming the lavender water is intended for direct skin application? It is probably water, preservative and a few drops of lavender EO or FO.



Thank you that was very helpful!


hmlove1218 said:


> I second Camden Grey. I got an 8 oz bottle for under $20. Shipping is about $10 for the discount option, so I usually purchase more than one thing at a time to make it worth it



EO or FO?


----------



## lionprincess00 (Dec 8, 2015)

narnia said:


> EO or FO?



Camden grey is eo. I buy eos from them. A 20$ minimum purchase is reasonable, their eos are quality and well priced.  Also, dont use a coupon there for regular smaller purchases. It bumps the shipping to a high price. Their coupons are better suited for large bulk purchases. Bulk apothecary has descent prices and with coupons seem reasonable, but cg still winds up cheaper in checkout. Also, every and i mean EVERY sale ba has had this year the eo prices increased during the sale (from before the sale) and decreased back immediately after the sale. So i use cg...and other companies are well priced if youre willing to do a 100$ minimum order. If  youre like me and experimenting with a handful of eos, i say cg all the way.


----------



## Nevada (Dec 8, 2015)

Bramble Berry Lavender fo is a favorite. I got bars 2 years old blended with Orange and Patch that still smell nice.


----------



## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

lionprincess00 said:


> Camden grey is eo. I buy eos from them. A 20$ minimum purchase is reasonable, their eos are quality and well priced.  Also, dont use a coupon there for regular smaller purchases. It bumps the shipping to a high price. Their coupons are better suited for large bulk purchases. Bulk apothecary has descent prices and with coupons seem reasonable, but cg still winds up cheaper in checkout. Also, every and i mean EVERY sale ba has had this year the eo prices increased during the sale (from before the sale) and decreased back immediately after the sale. So i use cg...and other companies are well priced if youre willing to do a 100$ minimum order. If  youre like me and experimenting with a handful of eos, i say cg all the way.



When I went to their site today, they had a $100 minimum.  $20 admin charge if purchasing under that amount.


----------



## hmlove1218 (Dec 8, 2015)

I think you may have been on the New Direction Aromatics website. Camden Grey only has a $20 minimum


----------



## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> Lavender EO is one of the cheaper oils. There are many different sources for lavender EO. Amazon has one with free prime shipping. 4 oz for only 13 something. I tested it and it is indeed lavender EO. It is not 40/42 EO though. Its Bulgarian lavender which is the more floral one. Mikes fragrances also has some lavender EO for a pretty good price. I've also heard others use Camden Grey.



Which do people prefer?  The floral or the 40/42?


galaxyMLP said:


> Lavender EO is one of the cheaper oils. There are many different sources for lavender EO. Amazon has one with free prime shipping. 4 oz for only 13 something. I tested it and it is indeed lavender EO. It is not 40/42 EO though. Its Bulgarian lavender which is the more floral one. Mikes fragrances also has some lavender EO for a pretty good price. I've also heard others use Camden Grey.



What brand of lavender EO was it?


----------



## galaxyMLP (Dec 8, 2015)

It was Radha brand lavender. And I find that it's personal preference. The 40/42 (usually a french lavender) has more camphorous notes go it. Personally I like the Bulgarian one better. But some people really don't like that it's more like a straight floral.


----------



## narnia (Dec 8, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> It was Radha brand lavender. And I find that it's personal preference. The 40/42 (usually a french lavender) has more camphorous notes go it. Personally I like the Bulgarian one better. But some people really don't like that it's more like a straight floral.


 
Thx! Is the Radha Bulgarian?


----------



## lionprincess00 (Dec 9, 2015)

narnia said:


> When I went to their site today, they had a $100 minimum.  $20 admin charge if purchasing under that amount.



Yes, nda has the 100 minimum.  Camden grey 20$ which is who i was saying to use (i abbreviated  it cg for short).


----------



## narnia (Dec 9, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> It was Radha brand lavender. And I find that it's personal preference. The 40/42 (usually a french lavender) has more camphorous notes go it. Personally I like the Bulgarian one better. But some people really don't like that it's more like a straight floral.



I had bought the 40/42 from BB.  I smelled it, and it did not smell anything like the tiny bottle of Bulgarian that I had been using therapeutically.  Maybe because I was used to it, but I prefer the Bulgarian one, too.  I actually don't even like the 40/42 but if that is what is typically used in soap then I guess I should stick with it....


----------



## penelopejane (Dec 9, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> I would use 1.5oz in a 32 oz batch or a bit more.  Drops will not give you much of anything afterward.




Wow that has put me off EOs. I thought you paid the higher price because they were more concentrated. [emoji33]


----------



## dixiedragon (Dec 9, 2015)

penelopejane said:


> Wow that has put me off EOs. I thought you paid the higher price because they were more concentrated. [emoji33]


 
Not sure where you got that idea? EOs are more expensive b/c they come from plants. Some plants (like lavender and mint) are easy to grow and have a lot of essential oil in them, so those EOs are cheaper. Some plants have much less scent and are harder to grow, so those EOs are expensive. (Like rose.)


----------



## narnia (Dec 12, 2015)

Would I need less lavender EO if adding after the cook in HP?


----------



## snappyllama (Dec 12, 2015)

narnia said:


> Would I need less lavender EO if adding after the cook in HP?



Yes. That's one reason some folks like to reserve expensive EOs for HP.


----------



## narnia (Dec 12, 2015)

snappyllama said:


> Yes. That's one reason some folks like to reserve expensive EOs for HP.



Then how much would I need to add after the cook?  BB says 1.6 oz for 2 lb.  Lyecalc says .98 oz.  I really want to make some frgranced soaps but cannot proceed without knowing exactly how much EO to add!  :?


----------



## houseofwool (Dec 12, 2015)

I normally use 3% PPO for cold process. I would think somewhere around 1.5% would do for hot process, but TEG might direct you more accurately since he does HP.


----------



## narnia (Dec 12, 2015)

houseofwool said:


> I normally use 3% PPO for cold process. I would think somewhere around 1.5% would do for hot process, but TEG might direct you more accurately since he does HP.



Thanks.  What is PPO?


----------



## snappyllama (Dec 12, 2015)

I don't HP very often so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in. Basically, I use half of what I would when CPing. I like a highly scented soap. Most of my CP soaps use between .8 and 1oz ppo. I always check the max allowable limit from the supplier and make sure that's within guidelines. Some fragrances are very strong so I might use a little less (or wish I had lol).

For HP, I use about half of what I would for CP.... typically .5oz ppo. A good reference is BB's FO calculator to get an idea of different fragrance types. For EOs, you'll really want to verify allowable amounts. Some can be dangerous at pretty small amounts like clove.


----------



## narnia (Dec 12, 2015)

Thanks, but I still don't know what ppo means...

This is all soooooooo confusing.  I just read Soap Queen's recommendations for EOs and she said that HP takes the same amount as CP.....


----------



## snappyllama (Dec 12, 2015)

Per Pound of Oil


----------



## narnia (Dec 12, 2015)

Thank you!  So that is oil only and not the finished weight of the soap?


----------



## kchaystack (Dec 12, 2015)

Short answer, it depends.

The I think BB calculator takes into account the IFRA guidelines for safe amounts.  All soapcalc will tell you is how much to put in according to the % that you enter.  So if you tell it you want to add 5% of an EO, it will calculate how many ounces or grams of that EO you need.  It does not know what the safe level of the EO is.  To know what the safe level is, you have to find what the IFRA considers a 'safe' amount.

Most places you get EO's and FO's from will tell you what this is.  I will not buy from a place that does not list this clearly in the description, along with the flashpoint and (for FO's) the vanillan content.

For lavender, I think the max is 5% of your weight.  So if you are making 2 pounds of soap, you can use up to 1.6oz of lavender EO.

Depending on your preference, that might be too much.  No one can tell you what you will feel is 'strong scented' or 'light scented'  you just have to try it on your own.

For other EOs, like clove, peppermint, or cinnamon  the max is about 1% of your soap weight, as these are very irritating.


Also, you can find most abbreviations we use in this thread:  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=51841


----------



## snappyllama (Dec 12, 2015)

Just Oil


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 13, 2015)

I deleted the other question about difference in hp and cp scent amounts - as discussed, please do not ask the same question in multiple threads. 

With hp, it's also good to let the soap cool a bit before adding in the scent. The trick is finding the sweet spot between it being not yet cool as it can be and so cool that it starts to stiffen up!


----------



## narnia (Dec 13, 2015)

Thanks for the link to the abbreviations!


----------



## dixiedragon (Dec 14, 2015)

Another way to use less FO or EO is to rebatch. Make your soap, then grate it. put it in a crockpot with a teensy bit of water (just enough to moisten it) and melt it down. add your scent, stir and glop into the mold.

http://www.millersoap.com/re.html


----------



## JayJay (Dec 14, 2015)

I ditto the temperature warning. Make sure you know the flashpoint and don't add the EO until you soap has cooled enough. 

With my first batch, I poured my precious EO into the cooked soap, only to witness them evaporate.  That was an expensive lesson to learn.


----------



## narnia (Dec 14, 2015)

I added the default soapcalc fragrance ratio of .5 of lavender and lemongrass to my test batch last night and it seems kind of strong even then....

It's been a steep learning curve, but I'm learning!  It all boils down to lot of experimentation!  No way around it!


----------



## narnia (Jan 16, 2016)

After some calculations....it turned out that bulk apothecary came out cheaper for the 1lb. size with their 10% discount code and the lower shipping charges.

Jayjay, what is a good temp to let it cool down to after the cook in order to avoid the EO evaporating?  I found that my .5 ratio came out very weak after 4 weeks of cure.


----------



## Saponista (Jan 16, 2016)

http://www.jonnsaromatherapy.com/flashpoints.html

This article may be of interest to you narnia


----------



## DeeAnna (Jan 16, 2016)

That article really doesn't explain flash point at all. The method described is more of a crude experiment to determine the property called vapor pressure. 

Wikipedia's article is a correct explanation of flash point See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point

Eta ... I think there's a lot of confusion about flash point in regard to retaining fragrance in a product. I make a point to add scent or other heat sensitive ingredients to my lotion or HP soap or whatever when the product is as cool as is practical. That's often well below the flash point and that's all to the good ... cooler is better.


----------



## narnia (Jan 16, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> That article really doesn't explain flash point at all. The method described is more of a crude experiment to determine the property called vapor pressure.
> 
> Wikipedia's article is a correct explanation of flash point See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
> 
> Eta ... I think there's a lot of confusion about flash point in regard to retaining fragrance in a product. I make a point to add scent or other heat sensitive ingredients to my lotion or HP soap or whatever when the product is as cool as is practical. That's often well below the flash point and that's all to the good ... cooler is better.



What is a good temp for HP soap to cool down to, but not get so cool that the batter will be clumpy /chunky in the mold?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 17, 2016)

It's a question rather like "how long is a piece of string?" In that the answer is "it depends" 

Different recipes will solidify at different temperatures, so I would say to watch one regularly as it cools, checking the temp and seeing if it is okay for moulding.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jan 17, 2016)

^^^^ The Gent says it best. No substitute for experience with things like this ... and that is what makes soap making as much of an art as it is a science.

For example, an HP soap that has a bit less water due perhaps to a longer cook will be firmer at a higher temp than one with a bit more water. The solution is to evaluate the texture as it cools, not go by a strict temp reading.


----------



## Saponista (Jan 17, 2016)

Oh dear, I defer to your experience deeanna! Sorry for posting a rubbish article.


----------



## DeeAnna (Jan 17, 2016)

Oh, Saponista, it's not rubbish!  There's merit to this test and I'm glad you shared it. Never seen this idea before. I can see where someone could use it to figure out at what temperature a scent becomes strong or to figure out when certain notes of a scent first appear.


----------

