# Trouble with Fall EO blends



## SoapyMama4992 (Aug 16, 2017)

In search of fall EO blends that you've tried and had success with in CP Soap. I've made a Pumpkin Spice blend with Clove, Cinnamon, Orange and Nutmeg and it excelerated my trace to an almost unworkable batter. I later read that cinnamon and clove can cause batter to overheat. My last batch I created was with Cedarwood and Fir needle and that somehow turned my blue oxide to pink within my batter. I have not had much luck with fall blends and I'm trying to gear up my inventory for fall craft fairs. I would love some successful blends. My base recipe contains Coconut Oil, Olive Oil and Castor Oil. 

Also, could I add my EO's to my fats before adding the lye water. I have not had much success with adding them into the batter. Looking for a better option.


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## Kittish (Aug 17, 2017)

How long have you been making soap? You said in another thread that you're new to CP soap making. If you've been doing it less than one to two years, I really think you're getting ahead of yourself with selling.


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## Cellador (Aug 17, 2017)

I found this when I was searching for similar information, though I haven't tried any yet. 

http://www.soap-making-resource.com/fall-essential-oil-blends.html


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## SoapyMama4992 (Aug 17, 2017)

Thanks for the link!!


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## 0115d8cf (Aug 17, 2017)

If I'm using finicky fos/eos, I usually soap at room temperature and add the fo/eo to my base oils before mixing with lye. And re: color morphing... are you sure it was an oxide and not a dye?

And for the record, you might want to remove the medical claims you make on your etsy. Saying that certain oils can fight inflammation/are antiseptic steers your soap over to drugs instead of cosmetics.


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## SoapyMama4992 (Aug 17, 2017)

0115d8cf said:


> If I'm using finicky fos/eos, I usually soap at room temperature and add the fo/eo to my base oils before mixing with lye. And re: color morphing... are you sure it was an oxide and not a dye?
> 
> And for the record, you might want to remove the medical claims you make on your etsy. Saying that certain oils can fight inflammation/are antiseptic steers your soap over to drugs instead of cosmetics.





Kittish said:


> How long have you been making soap? You said in another thread that you're new to CP soap making. If you've been doing it less than one to two years, I really think you're getting ahead of yourself with selling.



I've been making CP soaps for a little over a year, I still consider myself new because I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I feel like I'm learning something new with every batch, especially as I create new recipes…. but I'm certainly not getting ahead of myself for selling. I've had a lot of success with local markets and boutiques. Thanks for the input.

I have a background in Marketing and don't believe I'm making any claims that would brand my soaps for medical purposes. I use to work in copywriting and I'm very familiar with FDA guidelines and making false claims. I don't make any claims about my soaps directly, but I do list the benefits of certain oils. Thanks for stopping by my Etsy shop!

Again, Would love to know if anyone has had success with Fall essential oil blends. I thought a soap making forum was a safe place to ask questions without judgement and scrutiny.


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## Millie (Aug 17, 2017)

I'm happy to share scent blends. Cedar, light patchouli and lemongrass is nice, with bergamot in place of lemongrass it's amazing, but bergamot fades, so it's only a good combo if you use it quickly. For ratios, I've tried a bunch and they're all pretty good  A touch of frosty peppermint or fir needle in the blend... Well, you get the idea. My spicy autumn blends accelerate quite a bit, sounds like you are looking for something easier to work with. 

I don't know much about labeling but the info you posted is certainly misleading. Oils don't have the same properties once saponified. CO for example is great for skin and hair, sodium cocoate is stripping. The high pH of soap damages hair. I would be worried that many people will damage their hair using your cold process Hair Repair Bar. It would probably make for a great body bar though. 

The learning process never ends. We've all gotten schooled on one thing or another, but the honest feedback from fellow crafters helps in the end. Welcome to the forum!


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## DeeAnna (Aug 17, 2017)

"...I don't make any claims about my soaps directly, but I do list the benefits of certain oils...."

Our goal is to help people do the right thing, whether it's how to make soap or how to market and sell it. Sometimes you get more help and advice than you're asking for, that's for sure. That's the chance you take when asking for help in an open public forum. The advice you're getting is correct, so it might be worth your while to do more digging into this matter to get a better perspective.

The FDA rules and their disciplinary letters show the FDA takes a dim view of anyone making an outright claim or even an implication that a soap does anything other than get a person clean. If you claim or imply anything more than your soap will get a person clean, the product is no longer soap; it's a cosmetic or a drug. Claims don't have to be explicitly offered by the seller about the product itself. Claims also include hype about the amazing properties of the ingredients, customer testimonials about the healing or beneficial properties, and all other circumlocutions of this nature.

Furthermore, it's a fact that saponification destroys the fats/oils from which a soap is made. The properties of the fat don't transfer to the soap, so it's inaccurate to suggest the soap offers benefits similar to the fats from which the soap is made. The classic example is a comparison of coconut oil and coconut oil soap.

Marie Gale is the expert at properly marketing and labeling soap and cosmetic products. 
Labeling FAQ: http://www.mariegale.com/quick-labeling-faq/
Discussion of an FDA warning letter: http://www.mariegale.com/another-fda-warning-letter/


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## Kittish (Aug 17, 2017)

SotaSoapCo said:


> I've been making CP soaps for a little over a year, I still consider myself new because I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I feel like I'm learning something new with every batch, especially as I create new recipes…. but I'm certainly not getting ahead of myself for selling. I've had a lot of success with local markets and boutiques. Thanks for the input.
> 
> I have a background in Marketing and don't believe I'm making any claims that would brand my soaps for medical purposes. I use to work in copywriting and I'm very familiar with FDA guidelines and making false claims. I don't make any claims about my soaps directly, but I do list the benefits of certain oils. Thanks for stopping by my Etsy shop!
> 
> Again, Would love to know if anyone has had success with Fall essential oil blends. I thought a soap making forum was a safe place to ask questions without judgement and scrutiny.



The judgement comes because so many, many people think "Hey, I'll make and sell soap!" without doing any even basic research into the product or process, then pop up here when their second or third batch of soap goes awry. In fact, I've seen just exactly that happen no fewer than a dozen different times in the two short months I've been a member of this forum. You say you've been doing CP soap for a bit over a year, though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for having done your due diligence. 

As far as making claims, if I understand the FDA regs, claiming or even insinuating _anything_ beyond it gets you clean and having exfoliating properties, such as listing believed benefits of essential oils included, moves the soap into the drug category. And one of your claims is flat wrong. "Chemical free" your soaps ain't. And why don't you have sodium hydroxide listed in your ingredients on your product pages? 

The closest thing to a 'fall blend' EO I've done anything with was a combination of fir needle, cedarwood, and frankincense. Smells like walking through an evergreen forest. There was no acceleration at all in my soap, nor any discoloration. I haven't tried any of the spicy sorts of EOs yet, though my own research and reading leads me to expect varying degrees of acceleration from pretty much all of them, all the way up to OMG instant soap-on-a-stick. 

Yes, you can add your EOs to your oils before mixing in your lye. If you're working with EOs you know are going to accelerate your soap, skip the stick blender entirely and use a whisk for your mixing in addition to soaping at room temperature and with full water (33% lye concentration). That will help slow things down as much as they can be and hopefully give you enough time for whatever sorts of designs you want to do.


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## SoapyMama4992 (Aug 17, 2017)

Millie said:


> I'm happy to share scent blends. Cedar, light patchouli and lemongrass is nice, with bergamot in place of lemongrass it's amazing, but bergamot fades, so it's only a good combo if you use it quickly. For ratios, I've tried a bunch and they're all pretty good  A touch of frosty peppermint or fir needle in the blend... Well, you get the idea. My spicy autumn blends accelerate quite a bit, sounds like you are looking for something easier to work with.
> 
> I don't know much about labeling but the info you posted is certainly misleading. Oils don't have the same properties once saponified. CO for example is great for skin and hair, sodium cocoate is stripping. The high pH of soap damages hair. I would be worried that many people will damage their hair using your cold process Hair Repair Bar. It would probably make for a great body bar though.
> 
> The learning process never ends. We've all gotten schooled on one thing or another, but the honest feedback from fellow crafters helps in the end. Welcome to the forum!



I do appreciate the feedback and learning from more seasoned soap makers, which is why after almost 2 years I decided yesterday to join the forum. I did not however, expect my entire Etsy page to be scrutinized and put under the microscope in less than 24 hours of creating an account on this forum. I just asked a simple question about Fall EO's and I'm getting FDA warnings thrown at me and questioned wether I'm competent enough to be selling at all. Again, I appreciate the feedback even though it was unsolicited. I'm not opposed to advice, if I were I wouldn't be here. If I wanted help on my labeling or advice on starting a business... this is not the thread I would be posting in. Thanks for sharing your EO blends with me.


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## SoapyMama4992 (Aug 17, 2017)

Kittish said:


> The judgement comes because so many, many people think "Hey, I'll make and sell soap!" without doing any even basic research into the product or process, then pop up here when their second or third batch of soap goes awry. In fact, I've seen just exactly that happen no fewer than a dozen different times in the two short months I've been a member of this forum. You say you've been doing CP soap for a bit over a year, though, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for having done your due diligence.
> 
> As far as making claims, if I understand the FDA regs, claiming or even insinuating _anything_ beyond it gets you clean and having exfoliating properties, such as listing believed benefits of essential oils included, moves the soap into the drug category. And one of your claims is flat wrong. "Chemical free" your soaps ain't. And why don't you have sodium hydroxide listed in your ingredients on your product pages?
> 
> ...



This is all one giant learning process for me, even after a year of making CP Soap. The selling has only unfolded in the last 4 months. I'll be honest, I'm not perfect. I have "fully saponified lye" in my ingredients on my actual labels... but apparently I spaced out and forgot to add it to Etsy. I thought I could claim *chemical free because although CP Soap requires lye, it doesn't contain it in the finished product. Again, I'm learning.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 17, 2017)

"Chemical free" is a term with no real meaning, because all matter is made of chemicals. If you really mean to say "synthetic detergent free" or "synthetic fragrance free" or something like that, I'd encourage you to say something like that instead -- those are examples of accurate statements that could be used to describe a lye-based soap made with only EOs for scent.


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## SoapyMama4992 (Aug 17, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> "Chemical free" is a term with no real meaning, because all matter is made of chemicals. If you really mean to say "synthetic detergent free" or "synthetic fragrance free" or something like that, I'd encourage you to say something like that instead -- those are examples of accurate statements that could be used to describe a lye-based soap made with only EOs for scent.



Ok thank you. I appreciate the helpful tips. I have since removed "chemical free"


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## Kittish (Aug 17, 2017)

SotaSoapCo said:


> This is all one giant learning process for me, even after a year of making CP Soap. The selling has only unfolded in the last 4 months. I'll be honest, I'm not perfect. I have "fully saponified lye" in my ingredients on my actual labels... but apparently I spaced out and forgot to add it to Etsy. I thought I could claim *chemical free because although CP Soap requires lye, it doesn't contain it in the finished product. Again, I'm learning.



Fair enough. As long as you're willing to learn what you don't know, then it'll all work out.


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## cmzaha (Aug 17, 2017)

SotaSoapCo said:


> I do appreciate the feedback and learning from more seasoned soap makers, which is why after almost 2 years I decided yesterday to join the forum. I did not however, expect my entire Etsy page to be scrutinized and put under the microscope in less than 24 hours of creating an account on this forum. I just asked a simple question about Fall EO's and I'm getting FDA warnings thrown at me and questioned wether I'm competent enough to be selling at all. Again, I appreciate the feedback even though it was unsolicited. I'm not opposed to advice, if I were I wouldn't be here. If I wanted help on my labeling or advice on starting a business... this is not the thread I would be posting in. Thanks for sharing your EO blends with me.


First off threads take on a life of their own, and one question can go in a different direction. Also when people mention "I am new" to the forum and soapmaking, we, we being the curious creatures will very possibly check out the persons Etsy, FB and Webpage. You actually have mentioned being a New soapmaker, then soapmaking for 2yrs and another time you mention soaping 1 yr. So you really should not get upset when someone makes suggestions and comments. Any seasoned soapmaker should know in a year that certain EO and FO's are troublemakers. 

Please remember when labeling Soap is a "Wash-Off" product off so will not help with bug repellent, moisturizing etc.  Yup checked out your FB and Etsy page :bunny:

As for winter/fall scents I like to stick to pumpkins, cranberries, apples. I do not use a lot of EO's except Peppermint, Wintergreen, Eucalyptus, Litsea, patchouli, and Clove in soaps since most do not stick as well as a good known sticking FO and my customers like stickers. I save EO's for stay on products so they may get some benefit from the EO's.  

Hopefully you will stick around and learn, there is a lot of good knowledge on this forum, with very helpful people here. Nice to meet you :bunny:


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## Millie (Aug 18, 2017)

I like the changes you made to your etsy shop! It is easy to get sucked in by the "soap cures everything" hype on so many blogs, and a little like losing Santa when you realise soap is, after all, just soap. 

Sorry I pounced earlier. It is a hot button topic for me, and I'm not sure how to be diplomatic about it 

  I hope you stick around, this really is a good forum to be a part of.


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## SunRiseArts (Aug 18, 2017)

lately I get FOs that are vanillin free because I hate that the soap goes brown.  So this is the only scent I use for my fall soap.  Also,  FOs that have spices in them tend to rise.

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com/autumn-wreath-type-fragrance-oil


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## IrishLass (Aug 18, 2017)

Welcome Sota Soap :wave:

I hope we haven't scared you away. We all here are very passionate about the craft of handmade soapmaking if we are passionate about anything at all. DeeAnna said it best when she said: "_Our goal is to help people do the right thing, whether it's how to make soap or how to market and sell it."_ 

Many of our members are very experienced soapmakers who have been making and/or selling handmade soap for several years (some for decades), and are not shy to speak up if they happen to pick up on certain clues that are a possible give-away of where someone might be standing along the road of soapmaking progress or if someone might be heading for a known pitfall, etc..., and they can't be faulted for speaking up, especially in light of the plethora of bad (and even very dangerous) soap-making info making the rounds on the internet and some of the social media groups these days where it's so easy for one bad soapmaking idea to be so oft-repeated that it becomes enshrined as soaping wisdom by the uninitiated who then pass it on to others and so on and so on. Such are the kinds of things we find ourselves having to confront and dispel on the forum on a daily basis to the point that it's not uncommon for any one of us to get a little battle-weary from time to time. I hope you don't hold it against us. 

I don't know if you have had the chance to do so yet, but reading through the three threads in the following links, which have been made into Stickies, will help you to gain a better understanding of the dynamics of our community and why certain types of questions tend to elicit certain kinds of responses:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56833

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=33144

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=16002 




SotaSoapCo said:


> Ok thank you. I appreciate the helpful tips. I have since removed "chemical free"


 
You may also want to re-think using the term, "saponified lye" or "fully saponified lye" in your ingredients, seeing as how the oils are what are saponified by the lye, not the other way around. Instead of 'saponified lye and whichever oils', the proper terminology should read "Saponified oils of____". 




			
				SotaSoapCo said:
			
		

> I don't make any claims about my soaps directly, but I do list the benefits of certain oils...."


 
Even listing indirect benefits puts your soap in the drug category and makes it subject to all the rules and regulations applied to drug companies. Here is an example of the kind of enforcement one can expect from the FDA for listing indirect benefits either on labels or on webpages:

https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2017/ucm569211.htm 


IrishLass


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## SoapyMama4992 (Aug 18, 2017)

A little put off by the need to poke holes in my Etsy shop and experience... but it's not scaring me away. I think my overall experience is being questioned a lot and it feels like a very gang mentality happening between people who see me as a rookie and those who see themselves as a veteran. I appreciate the wisdom and experience... I really do. The delivery in some (not all) of these replies could be a little less mean girl. I guess I wasn't expecting to be greeeted by hostility on a stinking soap making forum! CMZaHa I've had about 2 years of experience with soap making in general if you consider melt/pour, which is what I said in my reply. I've only been making CP soap for about a year of that if you don't include the reading and studying I did prior to my first batch. I still consider myself new and I will probably consider myself new for a while as I feel like I'm ALWAYS learning. I'm sorry my experience with EO's gave you the impression that I don't know what I'm talking about. This is my FIRST time working with fall EO's like clove, cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. as this time last year I was making my very first batch of Oatmeal and Honey. I hope this clears up my experience track record with you. I have had extremely good luck with recipes until now and the only thing I can attribute that to is the spicy fall blends I'm working with. Hence the original question on this thread. I could also provide my birth certificate for you since you are so interested in vetting me. I would say your idea of curiosity boarders nosey. I'm not scared of the veteran type behavior and kick-back I'm getting. I'm willing to learn and never claimed to be perfect. I wouldnt be here if I did. There are a few of you who have delivered this message to me in a very gracious and welcoming way and I have taken all your tips and labeling advice to heart. I really want to do well with this. I'm not a fair weather soap maker. I've been a stay at home mom for 4 years who has felt like my worth has been slipping through my fingers. This small little soap business has made me feel useful again. It feeds my creative and crafty needs. Please be nice. Since we all know what my Etsy page looks like. I would love for you to take a peek and let me know if there is anything else I should change. When it comes to selling I guess I was a little naive. Again, the selling part is very new to me. My shop has not been open long and the local Markets are a little differnt than Etsy. I made tons of changes on my Etsy page yesterday.


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## Millie (Aug 18, 2017)

Kudos to you for making those swift changes. I can understand a bit what you are going through as a mother - I haven't had the experience myself, but my sister is going through the same thing. It costs more for childcare than she can earn, and as much as she loves getting to stay with her kids, it is hard on her self esteem.

Back onto scent blends: I always like to add a bit of sweetness to the spice blends, and they help as a filler for a strong scent as spices need to be used sparingly (although read up on any of the following, as overexposure could also cause allergic reactions). They will accelerate, but fortunately the rustic look you might get goes well with the autumn theme 

 Benzoin is a sweat, almost cotton candy like scent with a hint of plastic that makes a decent substitute for vanilla. Accelerant, discolors brown. Scent sticks. Great for a chai blend. 

Anise Star - black licorice! Blends well with benzoin as a sweet filler. No accel, no discoloration. Scent sticks. Also good in chai.

Orange peel wax - an orange scent that has been sticking for me so far, I'll hold off on any guarantees til it's stuck around a year, (late oct or nov) but so far smelling good.  Pairs well with benzoin in pumpkin spice blends. And of course anything that goes with orange  The highest amount I have used so far is 4%, added into a lye calculator with other oils. That batch is just two weeks old, so again I'll have to wait to report if that feels good, but I'm getting a decent lather so it's looking good. Said to be similar to lanolin, so I might be pushing the limits. In scent calculations, I divide it by two for strength of scent, so I considered the last batch as 2%. I have never used it on it's own, I think it accelerates a tad, but I did manage a slightly gloppy-near-the-end tiger swirl with it. Discolors dark orange. Cheap as lard!


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## cmzaha (Aug 19, 2017)

SoapyMama4992 said:


> I wasn't expecting to be greeeted by hostility on a stinking soap making forum! CMZaHa I've had about 2 years of experience with soap making in general if you consider melt/pour, which is what I said in my reply. I've only been making CP soap for about a year of that if you don't include the reading and studying I did prior to my first batch. I still consider myself new and I will probably consider myself new for a while as I feel like I'm ALWAYS learning. I'm sorry my experience with EO's gave you the impression that I don't know what I'm talking about. This is my FIRST time working with fall EO's like clove, cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. as this time last year I was making my very first batch of Oatmeal and Honey. I hope this clears up my experience track record with you. I have had extremely good luck with recipes until now and the only thing I can attribute that to is the spicy fall blends I'm working with. Hence the original question on this thread. I could also provide my birth certificate for you since you are so interested in vetting me. I would say your idea of curiosity boarders nosey. I'm not scared of the veteran type behavior and kick-back I'm getting. .


Don't really think I was asking to do a background check, and could care less how old you are. I really do not care how old you are, etc. M&P does not really count for soaping experience, unless you are actually making your own m&p base. On any forum if a website is listed someone is going to check it out, call it nosy or what that is what happens. Also FDA does not recognize the word "Saponified". You label either what goes in the pot or what comes out of the pot, but not saponified oil of .....


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