# Whats wrong with this picture?



## seven (Jan 19, 2015)

Pls share your thoughts


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## shunt2011 (Jan 19, 2015)

I have some that looks just like that.....will be watching.   I'm thinking not enough dilution?   I haven't had a chance to play with it.  I made mine about 2 months ago and it's sitting on the shelf.   I've since done the glycerin method it has worked like a gem.


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## Susie (Jan 19, 2015)

I'm going to have to ask for your recipe including _everything_ in weights.  Please include scents and all other additions, as well as percent of superfat.   I also need your process.  I hate to ask, but this is the only way I can begin to troubleshoot.

However, if you want an off the cuff answer that may or may not be correct, too much fat.  Whether too high superfat, too many unsaponifiables in the oils, or certain EO/FOs, that appears to be a layer of oil on top of the soap.  Now, to answer with what exactly it is, I need details.


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## seven (Jan 19, 2015)

The picture belongs to a student of mine who purchased a castile base from quite a big seller in here.

On the guide it says, dilute with distilled water 1:3. It came out runny, white/milky stuff on top, and pretty milky altogether. The paste zaps! Looks like it hasnt finished cooking.

Just a lil fyi of how crazy the soap market in here. Lots of irresponsible sellers flooding the market.


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## Susie (Jan 19, 2015)

It is irresponsible in the extreme to give away soap that has not been properly tested, much less sell it.  Every batch I make gets zap tested by me, as well as quality tested, before it goes out for family to use. 

It may be that the seller is still using the lye heavy methods taught in the past, added to oils high in unsaponifiables with EOs that cause separation...my mind boggles past that point.  I don't know where to even begin telling them what to do to "fix" it because I have no idea what is in there or how they arrived at that state.  Sorry.

If I were the person that bought the soap, I would promptly contact the seller with this picture and the fact that it zaps.  Give them a chance to make it right.


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## seven (Jan 19, 2015)

the paste is unscented. the instruction guide only mention 1 ingredient: saponified evoo (organic). dilute with 1:3 water, thats it.

oh, the person who bought it has contacted the seller. she only said to follow directions given on the instruction paper. no explanation, no nothing about how the end product looked to be.


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## Susie (Jan 19, 2015)

Wow, words fail me.


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## Dorymae (Jan 19, 2015)

I would explain to your student that this is a perfect example of a lye heavy soap paste that should not be used. A bad recipe with bad technique and to never purchase from that seller again. 

Nothing more you can do really. I suppose if she wanted to try to save her investment she could cook the paste and try adding very small amounts of oil to it, and see if she can cook it to zap free.  Then try diluting it with water and maybe try adding a bit of polysorbate 80. 

I doubt it would work but it sounds like she has nothing to lose by trying.


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## seven (Jan 19, 2015)

oh yeah, i have explained to her about the above. i didn't bother about try to saving the product since it wasn't mine anyway. i was more concerned that there is a seller out there who can be so careless.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 19, 2015)

Wow, that's pretty bold to be selling something that's lye heavy.  Hope she has good insurance for when someone gets burned.    I wouldn't dream of selling anything with out testing it.  I've zap tested mine and it's not zappy, I think I just need to dilute mine a bit more.   Just haven't had time to play with it.


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## Saponista (Jan 20, 2015)

Imagine if someone tries to wash their delicate facial skin with it or gets it in their eyes!!!!!!


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## seven (Jan 21, 2015)

it's been 3 days, my student said the soap is still milky, no improvement, no nothing. i told her to just forget about it. better to lose a few bucks than be sorry..


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## Susie (Jan 21, 2015)

So now you are going to teach her how to make it correctly, right?


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## seven (Jan 21, 2015)

nah, she just started basic cp and is not ready yet for ls (she told me herself). i ended up selling her my paste. i don't normally sell in paste form, but she sounded so frustrated i just can't help it.

i did give her a short lecture about zap testing, etc (which i already did when she first come to me for basic cp class). thought i reminded her again.


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## Susie (Jan 21, 2015)

Well, at least you made sure she has safe paste to dilute until she gets advanced enough to learn how to make it herself.  Good enough.  Are you going to teach her HP or CP liquid soap?


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## seven (Jan 21, 2015)

yep, at least i made sure the paste i sold to her was properly made, with proper testing (ph, zap, dilution tests) done prior to selling. she came to me for a basic cp class a few months back. she hasn't showed any interest in making her own paste, still overwhelmed by making cp soaps at the moment.


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## Mellifera (Jan 26, 2015)

Why isn't she contacting the seller for a refund? No point in losing money. Also, the seller should know that he/she has a problem with their process or formulation.


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## Luckyone80 (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm confused, is this paste used to make liquid soap?


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## DeeAnna (Jan 26, 2015)

Okay, so this question is still rumbling around in my pointy little head -- why would a lye-heavy paste produce a milky, separated soap after dilution? 
Was more cook time needed? Or am I missing an important point? 
Sounds like a teachable moment here, at least for me -- Susie? Irish Lass?

"...is this paste used to make liquid soap?..."

Yes, you're right about that. 
This question is in the cream and liquid soap forum, FWIW.


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## boyago (Jan 26, 2015)

Mellifera said:


> Why isn't she contacting the seller for a refund? No point in losing money. Also, the seller should know that he/she has a problem with their process or formulation.


I was curious if someone contacted the seller if just for a warning.  They could at least stop selling that batch.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 26, 2015)

From post #6: "...the person who bought it has contacted the seller. she only said to follow directions given on the instruction paper. no explanation, no nothing about how the end product looked to be...."


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## seven (Jan 26, 2015)

this is a pretty big, well known seller over here. sells a lot of stuff from ls paste, soap, shampoo bar, etc. i don't think many ppl here understand that a liquid soap shouldn't look milky and separated as pictured. maybe they thought it's normal. the market here needs A LOT of education.


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## Susie (Jan 26, 2015)

seven said:


> On the guide it says, dilute with distilled water 1:3. It came out runny, white/milky stuff on top, and pretty milky altogether. The paste zaps! Looks like it hasnt finished cooking.



I am going to have to presume this is at least a mostly olive oil liquid soap.  I have no other idea what is going on, whether it was scented with an EO or any other details.  Seems to me that the student/buyer of the paste bought it to be liquid soap, and diluted correctly. 

Without the recipe, I have no idea how else to troubleshoot this.  But unsaponifiables in the oils(EVOO, jojoba, lard, tallow, etc) will cause the milky appearance.  The cloudy top is oils...whatever the cause, it has to be.  I have no idea how it could have zapped.  Even paste I barely got to emulsification this morning before the power went out turned into zapless paste by the time the power got back on.


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## seven (Jan 26, 2015)

could it be that the paste maker had too much sf (re: milky appearance)?

my student had let the soap sit for days, and nothing changed during that period. i told her to just forget it. she was buying the paste to make ls and sell it. she had not add any scent or anything else to it when she took the photo. i guess nobody would buy a ls that looks like the pic, lol


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## Mellifera (Jan 26, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> From post #6: "...the person who bought it has contacted the seller. she only said to follow directions given on the instruction paper. no explanation, no nothing about how the end product looked to be...."



Yeah, but has the seller been contacted with the information that it isn't directions that are needed, but that there is a problem, that it's lye heavy, etc.?
ETA I guess I'm saying: if you contacted the seller with, "Hey this looks weird," it's time to contact again and say, "It more than weird, it's wrong. How are you going to make this right?"


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## Susie (Jan 26, 2015)

seven said:


> could it be that the paste maker had too much sf (re: milky appearance)?
> 
> my student had let the soap sit for days, and nothing changed during that period. i told her to just forget it. she was buying the paste to make ls and sell it. she had not add any scent or anything else to it when she took the photo. i guess nobody would buy a ls that looks like the pic, lol



You can't have zap and superfat at the same time.  One is lye heavy, the other oil heavy.  That is why I am leaning towards too many unsaponifiables in the oils used.  

Zap is unmistakable.  Superfat is not.  Many things cause milkiness.  

But, milkiness is not unsafe.  Zap is unsafe.  Thus my concern that the student has safe soap to use.

If I were that student, however, I would be filing a complaint with the BBB at the very least for unsafe product, and poor customer service.


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## Saponista (Jan 27, 2015)

I have found essential oils to cause milkiness and separation in my liquid soap, especially sweet orange and lavender.


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## Susie (Jan 27, 2015)

seven said:


> could it be that the paste maker had too much sf (re: milky appearance)?
> 
> my student had let the soap sit for days, and nothing changed during that period. i told her to just forget it. she was buying the paste to make ls and sell it. *she had not add any scent or anything else to it when she took the photo*. i guess nobody would buy a ls that looks like the pic, lol



Therefore, not an EO causing separation.

With a process of elimination, it has to be unsaponifiables in the paste.

It zaps, so that eliminates superfat.

It did not have ANY scent whatsoever, so that eliminates EO problems.  

It is definitely a layer of oils on the top.  It is not undiluted paste that would be in globs.(Also seven has enough soaping sense to rule that out on the front end.)

There may be another cause for the milkiness and separation, but I am at the end of my knowledge, so, without having the paste/soap in front of me with a list of ingredients, it has to be unsaponifiables.  There's nothing left.  I am going to guess it is probably Jojoba or EVOO that is the culprit, as it lacks the "snowflakes" appearance in there that lard gives(and lots of people would never think of using lard in liquid soap).


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## seven (Jan 27, 2015)

whatever it is, it is beyond me to sells such a paste that would produce a soap like that. even my beginner student knew there was something wrong with the soap just by looking at it. it didn't feel good on her skin too, runny and weird she said.


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## Susie (Jan 27, 2015)

I keep thinking that it is my age and upbringing that keeps me from comprehending how some people could act the way they do...like selling not zap tested soap and not responding to a request from a customer.  I just don't get it.  Maybe it is not just me, maybe that seller really is that....well, I have no polite words for it, so I will just stop there.


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## Saponista (Jan 27, 2015)

It is beyond my comprehension too Susie. If I was running a company and a customer complained, especially for a reason that could be a safety issue, I would do my utmost to resolve the problem for them and definitely not sell any more product from that batch!


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## cmzaha (Jan 27, 2015)

I would try cooking down the paste and see if it quits zapping. I still superfat at -10-13 without ending up with a zappy paste


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## Susie (Jan 27, 2015)

I would cook the paste with some extra oils to try to unzap it, also.  But this is a new soaper, so I think seven took the correct course of action.  She recommended the student not use unsafe soap, and sold her some safe soap.


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## Luckyone80 (Jan 27, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> "...is this paste used to make liquid soap?..."
> 
> Yes, you're right about that.
> This question is in the cream and liquid soap forum, FWIW.


 
Whoops, sorry about that, didn't even see where it was posted at. I just found this post on the quick links on the right side of the page under "Newest Threads" and didn't pay attention to where it was posted, sorry about that.


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## seven (Jan 28, 2015)

here in my country, it is not the norm to complain and demand things, even when it's our right to do so (like in this case: my student). she told the seller the problem, seller answered, period. my student ended up just accepting and forgetting, plus that would be the last time she spend her money with that seller.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 28, 2015)

Lucky -- Been guilty of that myself so I totally understand!

Seven -- That's how I was taught too. If it's not a matter of life and death, my goal is to politely say what needs to be said and move on.


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