# sodium carbonate and sodium sulphate in laundry bar soap



## mosesakpan

Hello All,

I'm about making 100% PKO laundry bar soap and I intend to add sodium carbonate and sodium sulphate in the recipe. 

How do I achieve this. The quantity of sodium carbonate and sodium sulphate and when to add it.

Thank you.


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## Susie

Why do you feel the need to add them?  And why did you not find out your details before deciding to add them?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Indeed- where was the source where you got the idea, what did it say about adding them in?  Without knowing your aim for adding them, it is not easy to make suggestions.


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## mosesakpan

Thank you Susie and The Efficacious Gentleman for post. 
I believed it will bring more bubbly and cleansing power and probably increases the final quantity of the soap. I don't really know. Almost all the soap makers around me add that to their recipe though they don't scale any of their items. They rather take the volume and use hydrometer in checking their Lye solution. to me the method is crude. 
Kindly advise.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Well, as I see in the other thread that you want to "compete well in the market", the only advice I'll give is that you don't even think about considering entertaining the idea of possibly selling until you know enough about the process and ingredients that you know the answers to these sorts of questions


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## mosesakpan

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Well, as I see in the other thread that you want to "compete well in the market", the only advice I'll give is that you don't even think about considering entertaining the idea of possibly selling until you know enough about the process and ingredients that you know the answers to these sorts of questions



Thank you. 
My quest is to make best laundry bar soap possible with PKO. My soap is not for bathing but washing clothes. I know sodium carbonate and sulphate could be added in liquid soap and detergent.  So when some soapers around added them in their laundry bar soap, I was wondering it outcome in my recipe. 

I came here to learn. 
Thank you.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

That being my point - there should be very little that you would need to learn about a product which you are looking to sell, especially as this is in the Beginner section.


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## earlene

Can't help you as I see no point to adding a laundry detergent 'filler' (sodium sulphate) to bar soap.  The purpose of it in commercial laundry detergents is stated as a filler, therefore it's only purpose is to increase the volume of the laundry powder so the consumer things they are getting more product.  In my opinion that is a waste of resources and ethically questionable.

I have not read anywhere else where anyone has used washing soda (sodium carbonate) in bar soap, but I do use it in my powdered laundry soap as well as my laundry butter.  It's purpose is two-fold: stain removal and softening of hard water.  It is also used in liquid laundry soap.  But as I said, I have no idea how it would affect solid soap.

Maybe you can do some test batches with varying amounts and see what results you get.

Here is an experiment done by a formerly active member about 8 years ago using sodium carbonate vs potassium carbonate (as a point of interest, but it probably won't help you determine how much to use):  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=13704

And here is a link about laundry detergent formulation that might interest you:  http://surfactantschemistry.blogspot.com/2013/07/laundry-detergents-formulation.html


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## DeeAnna

The use of sodium phosphate in laundry and dishwashing detergents is banned in the EU, Australia, Canada, and USA due to the water pollution problems it creates. Most detergent manufacturers use sodium carbonate (washing soda) as an alternative. These chemicals chelate (bind up) hard water minerals, effectively softening the water. 

Sodium sulfate, sodium phosphate, and sodium carbonate are inexpensive chemicals that are also used to lower the cost of a detergent. This appears to be the biggest reason for using sodium sulfate in dry detergents.


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## mosesakpan

earlene said:


> Can't help you as I see no point to adding a laundry detergent 'filler' (sodium sulphate) to bar soap.  The purpose of it in commercial laundry detergents is stated as a filler, therefore it's only purpose is to increase the volume of the laundry powder so the consumer things they are getting more product.  In my opinion that is a waste of resources and ethically questionable.
> 
> I have not read anywhere else where anyone has used washing soda (sodium carbonate) in bar soap, but I do use it in my powdered laundry soap as well as my laundry butter.  It's purpose is two-fold: stain removal and softening of hard water.  It is also used in liquid laundry soap.  But as I said, I have no idea how it would affect solid soap.
> 
> Maybe you can do some test batches with varying amounts and see what results you get.
> 
> Here is an experiment done by a formerly active member about 8 years ago using sodium carbonate vs potassium carbonate (as a point of interest, but it probably won't help you determine how much to use):  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=13704
> 
> And here is a link about laundry detergent formulation that might interest you:  http://surfactantschemistry.blogspot.com/2013/07/laundry-detergents-formulation.html




Thank you very much for your advise. I'm only a beginner and I learned everything online. But I noticed that our local homemade bar soap makers are doing something different and they all add the two compound to their recipe. A look at the site below shows  how our local make their bar soap :
http://www.nairaland.com/1273296/how-make-laundry-soap-bar 

I only wanted to hear from this forum if someone has done that and what was the outcome. 
Thank you for your contribution. I won't consider that option in my production.


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## mosesakpan

DeeAnna said:


> The use of sodium phosphate in laundry and dishwashing detergents is banned in the EU, Australia, Canada, and USA due to the water pollution problems it creates. Most detergent manufacturers use sodium carbonate (washing soda) as an alternative. These chemicals chelate (bind up) hard water minerals, effectively softening the water.
> 
> Sodium sulfate, sodium phosphate, and sodium carbonate are inexpensive chemicals that are also used to lower the cost of a detergent. This appears to be the biggest reason for using sodium sulfate in dry detergents.



Thank you for your post. I want to  believe the main reason is for the quantity of the final product. This in order to maximize profit. But the products are not that cheap here. So at the end difference is not that significant.


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## gloopygloop

I have made my own laundry soap and added Sodium Carbonate with success, well it works for me as I have very hard water, I did not find any adverse effects although I think it added to load ash which was not an issues as I do not sell anything I just make for me. I would like to say though that laundry soap has an effect for all of us as it will eventually mix in with our water systems etc. Please be responsible with what you put into your laundry soap and please research A LOT before attempting to sell your products if you live somewhere which does not require a safety assessment, making sure that it is safe to use and safe to put into the environment. Also I see no point in making a product like that if it isn't a dare I say as natural as possible, by which I mean why use weird chemicals unless they really bring something to the party and that they are as safe possible once in the product.

I add that I have also added Sodium Carbonate to ground powdered home made soap but I tended to find that as the two powders were of a different grind, e.g. my own ground up soap being slightly less fine than the Sodium Carbonate and also a slightly different weight they had a tendency to separate and it was a bit of a bore and chore to have to mix the entire batch up every time it was laundry time! so that it why I ended up adding it to the soap batch.


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## BattleGnome

mosesakpan said:


> . A look at the site below shows  how our local make their bar soap :
> http://www.nairaland.com/1273296/how-make-laundry-soap-bar



I would like to note that the recipe in the link is not the best recipe. Whatever formula you choose to use it is important to measure by weight not by volume. Weights are much more accurate if you want to repeat a successful batch (I assume this is your goal since you keep saying you hope to sell). The recipe also makes no mention of fragrances or colorants being skin safe (super important for any soap. You don't know if someone is going to have any residue on their clothing after a wash and some people just plain misuse products). The most important thing I must stress about that recipe is that you need a cure time. No solid soap is ever ready the next day, the chemical reaction just takes time. 

Have you had a chance to read the first few threads of the beginner's forum, lots of good info about about basic safety in soap making.


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## DeeAnna

"...the main reason [to use sodium sulfate] is for the [larger] quantity of the final product ... to maximize profit...." 

Yes, I understand this. But you also say --

"...the products are not that cheap here. So at the end difference is not that significant...."

I think you are saying sodium sulfate is expensive where you live. Not sure, but that's the impression I get. So let's think about that.

The _only_ reason to use sodium sulfate is to increase the volume of the finished soap so you can make more money from selling the soap. But if sodium sulfate costs a lot, then it may not make economic sense to use it. 

So ask yourself -- why do you want to use it if it is not going to make you more money?

I do not understand your desire to use this ingredient if I understand the situation correctly. Is it just because others are doing it, so you must do it too?

Most of us do not need or want to make the most soap at the lowest possible cost, so there is no reason for us to use fillers like sodium sulfate. For this reason, I doubt you will find anyone with experience using sodium sulfate here. 

You will find people using sodium carbonate in their laundry soap because it makes the soap more effective in hard water. But sodium sulfate does not offer this benefit. 

What about the cost of sodium carbonate -- is that expensive too? If not, it too can be used as a filler as well as acting as a water softening agent.

***

As far as using a hydrometer for measuring concentration -- yes, it is a valid and accepted test used in industry to verify the concentration of liquid solutions. The hydrometer has its limitations, but it will work fine for testing caustic soda (NaOH) solution and the carbonate and sulfate solutions as described in your procedure for making the soap.


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## mosesakpan

DeeAnna said:


> "...the main reason [to use sodium sulfate] is for the [larger] quantity of the final product ... to maximize profit...."
> 
> Yes, I understand this. But you also say --
> 
> "...the products are not that cheap here. So at the end difference is not that significant...."
> 
> I think you are saying sodium sulfate is expensive where you live. Not sure, but that's the impression I get. So let's think about that.
> 
> The _only_ reason to use sodium sulfate is to increase the volume of the finished soap so you can make more money from selling the soap. But if sodium sulfate costs a lot, then it may not make economic sense to use it.
> 
> So ask yourself -- why do you want to use it if it is not going to make you more money?
> 
> I do not understand your desire to use this ingredient if I understand the situation correctly. Is it just because others are doing it, so you must do it too?
> 
> Most of us do not need or want to make the most soap at the lowest possible cost, so there is no reason for us to use fillers like sodium sulfate. For this reason, I doubt you will find anyone with experience using sodium sulfate here.
> 
> You will find people using sodium carbonate in their laundry soap because it makes the soap more effective in hard water. But sodium sulfate does not offer this benefit.
> 
> What about the cost of sodium carbonate -- is that expensive too? If not, it too can be used as a filler as well as acting as a water softening agent.
> 
> ***
> 
> As far as using a hydrometer for measuring concentration -- yes, it is a valid and accepted test used in industry to verify the concentration of liquid solutions. The hydrometer has its limitations, but it will work fine for testing caustic soda (NaOH) solution and the carbonate and sulfate solutions as described in your procedure for making the soap.



My intention was to know why they are using these two compounds in their production and what could be the outcome. I now know they are not necessary in my recipe.

Also that web link is not mine and not even my procedure. I use lye calculator, weigh my oils, NaOH and fragrances. I don't use hydrometer and i don't measure volumes.

Thank you for your post


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## mosesakpan

BattleGnome said:


> I would like to note that the recipe in the link is not the best recipe. Whatever formula you choose to use it is important to measure by weight not by volume. Weights are much more accurate if you want to repeat a successful batch (I assume this is your goal since you keep saying you hope to sell). The recipe also makes no mention of fragrances or colorants being skin safe (super important for any soap. You don't know if someone is going to have any residue on their clothing after a wash and some people just plain misuse products). The most important thing I must stress about that recipe is that you need a cure time. No solid soap is ever ready the next day, the chemical reaction just takes time.
> 
> Have you had a chance to read the first few threads of the beginner's forum, lots of good info about about basic safety in soap making.



That web link is not mine and not even my procedure. I use lye calculator, weigh my oils, NaOH and fragrances. I don't use hydrometer and i don't measure volumes.


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## Soapmaker145

There is no substitute for doing your own tests.   If you plan on selling, you need to explain to customers why your product works better than alternatives.

The sodium sulfate is added to dry detergents to keep them flowing.  I can't think of anything that it will contribute to a bar of soap.  There is no reason to do any testing with it to at the start.  The sodium carbonate may contribute something useful to the product you want to make.  My suggestion is to try adding some sodium carbonate to traced soap by weight (e.g 10%, 20%, 30%.... of the weight of batter) and see how it works in your final product.  You can make small 4 to 5 oz samples and let them cure fully before testing.  While you're at it, think about adding another oil to your mix (tallow, lard or palm) which will help with a soap with no superfat.   My grandmother only used pure olive oil soap for the "tough" jobs.  It might also be helpful to test other chelators.


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## lenarenee

Hi mosesakpan,

I do know that bubbles do not have cleaning power, so more bubbles doesn't mean better washing. In fact, that might be a good marketing stance for your product.....lower bubbles means faster rinsing.

Also if you don't use the sodium sulfate and carbonate, that fact becomes another marketing family tor.....your product is different for a reason and doesn't contain unnecessary ingredients. 

Can optical brighteners added to your soap?  Enzymes like what Biz contains add in stain removal.

I have a website about laundry soap sonewhere, I'll dig it up and post it if I think it's helpful


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## mosesakpan

lenarenee said:


> Hi mosesakpan,
> 
> I do know that bubbles do not have cleaning power, so more bubbles doesn't mean better washing. In fact, that might be a good marketing stance for your product.....lower bubbles means faster rinsing.
> 
> Also if you don't use the sodium sulfate and carbonate, that fact becomes another marketing family tor.....your product is different for a reason and doesn't contain unnecessary ingredients.
> 
> Can optical brighteners added to your soap?  Enzymes like what Biz contains add in stain removal.
> 
> I have a website about laundry soap sonewhere, I'll dig it up and post it if I think it's helpful



Thank you. I'll be grateful with the website.


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## biarine

I love my laundry soap using koh and I add dissolved borax and washing soda. The cleaning power is very good. Our old white Irish lace curtain that look black even I wash it in commercial detergent and vanish stain remover with whitener on it but still black. I washed it yesterday and looking New and no sign of stain anymore my husband really surprised because we keep it in the cupboard because it's really looks dirty. We can't throw it because his grandmother crochet it.


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