# Polysorbate 80 help



## Claudsoap (Oct 15, 2017)

Hello,

So Ive been using polysorbate 80 at 1% along with 1% essential oil in my liquid soap.  

With peppermint essential oil it works great! My soap is clear! However,  with my own blend of pink grapefruit, lemon and orange essential oils it still manages to separate, cloud and have a large layer of white fall to the bottom.

Can anyone recommend how to stop this?  Is it due to citrus oils?  Should I use a higher % of PS80?

More information on PS80 and  essential oils for liquid soap would be much appreciated.

Cheers!


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 16, 2017)

Hi Claudsoap,

Try adding the PS 80 to some water in a glass first. Mix well. Then add your EOs. Give it a stir and let it rest. If the oil separates out, add another portion of PS 80. Continue until the oil doesn't separate out. Sometimes I don't add any PS 80; sometimes I add 4 parts PS 80 to 1 part EO.

TIP: If you aren't already doing so, it helps to warm the LS before adding fragrance or any other additive.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 16, 2017)

Yes, you need more PS80. Anywhere from 1 part PS80 to 1 part EO up to 5 or 6 parts PS80 usually work for me. You have to experiment to see what works.


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## BrewerGeorge (Oct 16, 2017)

I personally had a lot of trouble getting lemon EO to dissolve. I don't actually know how much PS80 it took because I got a little bit frustrated and stopped measuring after a while - just started globbing it in until it mixed.


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## Saranac (Oct 16, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> I personally had a lot of trouble getting lemon EO to dissolve. I don't actually know how much PS80 it took because I got a little bit frustrated and stopped measuring after a while - just started globbing it in until it mixed.



This is my experience with Patchouli EO.  With everything else, an equal amount of PS80 is sufficient.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 16, 2017)

I also want to point out that you may not need any PS80 to solubilize fragrance in liquid soap. At least that's been my experience with LS. To some extent, the soap itself can solubilize some additives. I do have to use PS80 with EOs in other products, and if I come across a fragrance that won't solubilize in LS on its own, I'll certainly use the PS80 in the LS as well.

You just have to try it and see -- I don't know of any list that tells what fragrances (EOs or FOs) need "X" amount of polysorbate. And even if there was such a list, it would never be comprehensive. One type of lavender EO might solubilize with a given amount of PS80 and another type might need more or less. Testing is the only way to find out for sure.

The polysorbates are surfactants, so if you use polysorbates in liquid soap, be aware that you can't legitimately say the product is "pure soap" if that claim is a part of your marketing strategy (assuming you sell).


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 17, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> I personally had a lot of trouble getting lemon EO to dissolve. I don't actually know how much PS80 it took because I got a little bit frustrated and stopped measuring after a while - just started globbing it in until it mixed.


Tsk, tsk :smallno:  :mrgreen:   It's good to keep in mind that it may take time to work. 

I like to add a tablespoon of PS20 or PS80 to an oz or so of water; stir well; then add a teaspoon of the fragrance. Stir well and let it sit. If the oil separates out, then add a teaspoon of polysorbate and stir again. At that point I wait an hour or so, or even let it sit overnight to give it a chance to work before correcting it further, a teaspoon at a time. 

HTH


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 17, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> ...you may not need any  PS80 to solubilize fragrance in liquid soap. At least that's been my  experience with LS.


Ditto. That has been my experience as well. Also, if your fragrance causes an "oil slick", ... 





> _...small additions of alcohol, glycerin and sugar act as solvents to improve the brightness and clarity of LS. They literally dissolve the soap crystals and then hold them in suspension, allowing the light to pass through._ Source: Catherine Failor, Making Natural Liquid Soaps, pp. 8-9


 1-2 tablespoons of 80 proof vodka per 16 oz. LS works well and also boosts lather. If you use too much of any of the solvents, they can also flatten lather, so use with a light touch.



DeeAnna said:


> The polysorbates are surfactants



Technically speaking, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I believe polysorbates are "solubizers" -- dedicated to making oils water soluble. 

For non-foaming water based products, i.e., linen spray, body mist, etc., polysorbate 20 (olive oil derivative) is recommended. For foaming products, i.e. liquid soap, polysorbate 80 (coconut oil derivative) is best. That being said, PS20 and PS80 can be used interchangeably.

They can also be used in non-aqueous products such as facial cleansers where they serve to blend oils (like an emulsifier) and make the product easy to rinse off after removing makeup. That's where the water-soluble feature kicks in.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 17, 2017)

Yes, polysorbates solubilize, and they emulsify, and they are surfactants. Soap is also a surfactant as well as an emulsifier. 

All surfactant means is "surface active agent" which is true of emulsifiers and solubilizers and soap and synthetic detergents and similar types of chemicals. Why do you think one function precludes the other? 

The difference between a "solubilizer" and an "emulsifier" is only a matter of degree. A solubilizer is a chemical that is able to bond with individual molecules. An emulsifier is able to bond only with groups of molecules. In either case, once the bond is created, the resulting particle has different chemical properties than the original chemicals that make up the particle. 

I don't find PS20 and PS80 interchangeable at all. I have never had good results from PS20. My polysorbate of choice is PS80.


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## Claudsoap (Oct 17, 2017)

I used 1% EO and 1% polysorbate 80.  It looked fine until a week later it started to show white particles floating around and either has settled at the top or bottom.  I mixed this over a month ago and some still have bits floating around.  So frustrating! I guess Ill experiment with 1.5 and 2% next.

Note.  My unscented blend looks great, so thats how I know its the EO's.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 18, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> Why do you think one function precludes the other?


I know this probably won't fly with you, DeeAnna, but you asked and I'll try to explain my thinking. I don't dabble in syndets at all and I associate "surfactant" with those. As for "emulsifier", that translates to "Ewax" to my mind, and I understand it as more of an oil/water "binder" than dissolver, i.e., I wouldn't try subbing PS80 for an emulsifying wax. I hope that makes sense.


DeeAnna said:


> I don't find PS20 and PS80 interchangeable at all. I have never  had good results from PS20. My polysorbate of choice is PS80.


LOL That surprised my eyes! Once again, I think our backgrounds and experience are different. My knowledge of syndets is practically non-existent, so I can only guess why you "don't find PS20 and PS80 interchangeable at all."  

As I've said before, I'm not a scientist. I just know what works for me. IME, and this isn't just me, as a solubizer, PS80 and PS20 can be used to make FOs and EOs water soluble for use in liquid soap, and in such products as linen spray, body mist, bug spray, etc., to eliminate the need to "shake before using". 

Given my "no syndet" background and experience, it would never occur to me to use them as surfactants/emulsifiers. Altho, now that I've thought about it, your point is well taken.    If used in a 100% natural product, I should change that to 99.97% +/- natural!


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 18, 2017)

Claudsoap said:


> I used 1% EO and 1% polysorbate 80.


It's good to keep in mind that "one-size-fits-all" doesn't work well when it comes to making EOs and FOs water-soluble. That's why I use a fragrance calculator like the one at MMS:
https://www.thesage.com/calcs/FragCalc.html

So, using Brewer George's finicky lemon EO as an example:


So, for 64 oz. of liquid soap, for "strong" scent, I need 0.32 Oz Wt of Lemon EO. Before adding the EO to the batch, I would test to see how much polysorbate is needed to make the EO water soluble. 

Since it's easier in this example to use volume measure, I would add 1 ml PS80 to a juice glass of water.  Stir well. Then add 1 ml lemon EO. Stir well. Since it's likely to separate out, add another ml of PS80, stir well and repeat as necessary until the EO no longer separates out. Then you have an idea of how much PS80 you need to add to 0.32 Oz. Wt. of EO, i.e., 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 and so on.

Be sure to take notes! And warm the LS to about 140°F or so before adding fragrance -- that helps to incorporate any additives you may be using.

HTH   :bunny:​


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## DeeAnna (Oct 18, 2017)

"...Given my "no syndet" background and experience, it would never occur to me to use them as surfactants/emulsifiers...."

Zany -- you yourself say you use polysorbate for cleansing your skin or hair (can't remember the specific details) as well as for solubilizing products. Why do you think polysorbates are able to cleanse if you don't think they're surfactancts or emulsifiers? Just because you don't think you use synthetic detergents doesn't mean you are correct. Do your homework!

Lotioncrafter: "*Polysorbate *80 is used as an *emulsifier *in combination with a variety of other hydrophobic emulsifiers to cover a wide range of oil in water, and water in oil emulsion systems. Individually, it is an excellent *solubilizer*..." http://www.lotioncrafter.com/polysorbate-80.html

Lotioncrafter: "Polysorbate 20 is used as a high HLB *emulsifier *in combination with a variety low HLB emulsifiers to cover a wide range of oil in water, and water in oil emulsion systems. Alone, it is an excellent solubilizer of essential oils, a wetting agent, viscosity modifier, stabilizer and dispersing agent...." http://www.lotioncrafter.com/polysorbate-20.html

Wikipedia: "*Emulsifying wax* is created when a wax material (either a vegetable wax of some kind or a petroleum-based wax) is treated with a *detergent *(typically sodium dodecyl sulfate or *polysorbates*)..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsifying_wax

Susan (swiftcraftymonkey): "[Polysorbates] are considered to be *non-ionic surfactants*..." http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/search?q=polysorbate


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## Susie (Oct 19, 2017)

Claudsoap said:


> Hello,
> 
> So Ive been using polysorbate 80 at 1% along with 1% essential oil in my liquid soap.
> 
> ...



Citrus EOs are notorious for causing exactly what you describe.  And even when using distilled water and a higher amount of PS80, you will still get the oils floating on the top and the white stuff at the bottom.  Even more confusing is that the citrus EOs from this source will differ from the citrus EOs from another source.  And sometimes they will differ even with different lots from the same source.  I attribute this to the differing sources of the fruits utilized.  Just accept and expect this and know that you are going to have to test and wait to see to know what the correct amount of PS80 will be for each batch of EO.


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