# Germaben II Preservative



## Carl (Jan 25, 2019)

I got my package from WSP today and got my Germaben II that I want to try as a preservative in liquid soap.

Seems like you add it at about 1/2%

Question 1:
   Can I add it to some LS that I made last weekend?  Already been diluted and in a container?

Or do I need to start fresh and add it at the dilution phase?

So if I had 32 ounces of paste and I dilute with 20 ounces of water, then I have 52 ounces total weight
which would equal .26 Ounces of preservative.

Sound right?

Thanks in advance!!


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## DeeAnna (Jan 25, 2019)

I thought germaben II was good only for pH of 3 to 7.5. Liquid soap will have a pH significantly higher than that, so I'm not sure you're going to get much good from using this preservative in LS.


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## Carl (Jan 25, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> I thought germaben II was good only for pH of 3 to 7.5. Liquid soap will have a pH significantly higher than that, so I'm not sure you're going to get much good from using this preservative in LS.



No germaben II is good for all PH ranges (according to WSP website).

It's the other one (starts with a Phe) that is restrictive.  Sorry, I can't remember the name.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 25, 2019)

Gobsmacked! Carl is correct. This preservative is formulated for use in LS... note "no pH restrictions".
http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/germaben-ii.aspx
Carl, I've been making liquid soap since 2004 and never used a preservative. That being said, every soaper has their own versions that may or may not need a preservative. It's just a matter of preference.

In regard to your questions, I'd advise you to contact WSP about how and when to use it... simply because this is a new one on me and probably most of our members.

Thank you for starting this thread. It's always good to learn something new from a Newbie! 

ETA: *Common Name Ingredient Listing (FDA Approved):*
Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben


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## cmzaha (Jan 26, 2019)

Lotioncrafter still lists it at max ph of 7.5


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## SaltedFig (Jan 26, 2019)

@Carl, It looks like WSP have made a mistake on their website.

WSP have this notice against the preservative:
_Formerly known as Germaben II. Ashland Chemical is the manufacturer and owner of the trademark Germaben II. We have received legal notice that small suppliers may no longer use the brand name of the product.Therefore on 11/20/2017 we have changed the product name as they have requested._
From: http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/germaben-ii.aspx

While WSP list the pH range on the safety data sheet attached to the product as _"No data available" _(*see PDF)_,_ this seems to have been erroneously translated to "_Formula pH: No restrictions_" on their website (http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/germaben-ii.aspx)
* PDF: http://www.crafters-choice.com/PDFs/ProductDocs/2202-SDS.pdf

The registered patent holder and manufacturer of Germaben II (ISP was purchased by Ashland) lists the pH range as 3 to 7.5
https://www.ashland.com/industries/personal-and-home-care/skin-and-sun-care/germaben-ll-and-lle


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## Carl (Jan 26, 2019)

SaltedFig said:


> @Carl, It looks like WSP have made a mistake on their website.
> 
> WSP have this notice against the preservative:
> _Formerly known as Germaben II. Ashland Chemical is the manufacturer and owner of the trademark Germaben II. We have received legal notice that small suppliers may no longer use the brand name of the product.Therefore on 11/20/2017 we have changed the product name as they have requested._
> ...



Wow thanks for all the research.  Now let's see if I can get WSP to give me a refund since their website is wrong.  It even lists Liquid Soaps as possible uses.

So back to the original question, let's pretend I have a preservative that has the acceptable PH range.

Can I just add it to the already dilute soap?

Or start fresh?


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## newlife (Jan 26, 2019)

I found this article and if you read through it , it has good info regarding liquid soap and preservatives
http://www.allsortsofsoap.com/preservatives.html


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## DeeAnna (Jan 26, 2019)

I was finding much the same info that SaltedFig was, but I didn't want to argue the point. 

As far as your question, if the diluted soap is cooled below the temp limit for the preservative, yes, just add the preservative and mix well. This also assumes your preservative is also water soluble.


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## Meshaal (Jan 26, 2019)

Carl said:


> So back to the original question, let's pretend I have a preservative that has the acceptable PH range.
> 
> Can I just add it to the already dilute soap?
> 
> Or start fresh?



As far as my understanding, you can use it in the batch you already made a week ago. However, let's pretend that it got contaminated with some kind of bacteria. What will happen is that the preservative is going to kill the bacteria and you will be rubbing your skin with a soap contains dead bacteria.

I haven't done a research on it but this is my best thought on this.

You could make an experiment. Put two samples of the soap in two small tubes, and add the preservative in one of them. Monitor them until you see changes in either of them and compare the result.

Many of the things you will learn in the soap making community, I believe, are based on personal experiments.


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## SaltedFig (Jan 26, 2019)

Carl said:


> Wow thanks for all the research.  Now let's see if I can get WSP to give me a refund since their website is wrong.  It even lists Liquid Soaps as possible uses. ...



You're welcome 

Asking for a refund is an excellent idea, as doing so will alert WSP to any potential error and gives them an opportunity to offer you a product that more closely suits your needs. If it does turn out that the product is tested as suitable for liquid soap, it also gives them the opportunity to provide you with testing information (to support their claim that it is suitable for liquid soap). Either way, I do believe in contacting the supplier when an error is suspected.

The information contained on this page may interest you: makingskincare.com/preservatives/


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## Carl (Feb 1, 2019)

I sent WSP an email about 2 or 3 days ago.

They updated their website for the product.  I asked them if I can exchange the one that I bought to the the mistake on the website.

They never responded!


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## SaltedFig (Feb 1, 2019)

Carl said:


> I sent WSP an email about 2 or 3 days ago.
> They updated their website for the product.  I asked them if I can exchange the one that I bought to the the mistake on the website.
> They never responded!



It's great that they've already got onto updating their website Carl!
At this point, if you are wanting them to deal with the exchange urgently, I would call them up (2 or 3 days isn't a very long time, so a friendly call might resolve this a bit quicker for you ).


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## cmzaha (Feb 1, 2019)

I would call them


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## Clarice (Feb 27, 2019)

Hi all - I have just read through this thread and followed the various links and still find myself a bit confused.

For those of you who use preservatives - do you have one "go to" preservative that you use for everything, or do you keep various preservatives on hand for use with different recipes?  

Do you have a favorite "high pH" preservative?  

Do you use a pH meter to determine the pH of your products?  If so - do you have a recommendation?  

Finally - for liquid soap - do you measure the pH after dilution?  I assume yes, because the pH of the water will affect the final pH, right?  

Thanks!  Clarice


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## lsg (Feb 27, 2019)

I use Liquid Germall Plus for water soluble products and Phenonip for anhydrous products.


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## Zany_in_CO (Feb 27, 2019)

I don't use any preservative in liquid soap. "Fully saponified soap requires no preservative." Source: _Making Natural LIQUID SOAPS: Herbal Shower Gels / Conditioning Shampoos / Moisturizing Hand Soaps_ by Catherine Failor (Paperback)
I know I'm considered "Old School" when it comes to LS, but the basics have served me well over 14 years, and other LSers who sell commercially as well. It's not that I haven't tried new things as they came along, I have, and I do understand why some prefer to use those options in their process. I always come back to the basics.

If you check the top selling (non-syndet) liquid soaps like Dr Bronner's and many others, their list of ingredients does not include preservative. Most include antioxidants like ROE among others, and/or essential oils that have preservative qualities to help prevent the soap from going south.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 27, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> ...Most include ... essential oils that have preservative qualities to help prevent the soap from going south.



Huh. If soap contains EO with preservative qualities, then that means the soap affirmatively contains a preservative. Might be an off-label use of the EO, but still a preservative.


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## Clarice (Feb 27, 2019)

May I clarify - for those who DO use a preservative in their liquid or cream soaps.  Do you add it to the paste when it has reached a suitable temperature, or do you add it when you add your liquid and/or other additives. 

Thank you!


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## Carl (Feb 28, 2019)

Clarice said:


> May I clarify - for those who DO use a preservative in their liquid or cream soaps.  Do you add it to the paste when it has reached a suitable temperature, or do you add it when you add your liquid and/or other additives.
> 
> Thank you!




I added it POST dilution, but while still semi warm (increase in temperature increases solubility).  The total weight can still change a bit during dilution (evaporation), which is why I added it after dilution.


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## Carl (Feb 28, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I don't use any preservative in liquid soap. "Fully saponified soap requires no preservative." Source: _Making Natural LIQUID SOAPS: Herbal Shower Gels / Conditioning Shampoos / Moisturizing Hand Soaps_ by Catherine Failor (Paperback)
> I know I'm considered "Old School" when it comes to LS, but the basics have served me well over 14 years, and other LSers who sell commercially as well. It's not that I haven't tried new things as they came along, I have, and I do understand why some prefer to use those options in their process. I always come back to the basics.
> 
> If you check the top selling (non-syndet) liquid soaps like Dr Bronner's and many others, their list of ingredients does not include preservative. Most include antioxidants like ROE among others, and/or essential oils that have preservative qualities to help prevent the soap from going south.




Thanks Zany!
This seems to be the one thing that the "Soap Gods" cannot agree on.

In another post, I did an unscientific analysis on Etsy of seller's who were using preservatives.  It was interesting to note that a large percentage of seller's do not preserve.

This could become another topic of conversation, but I think the key here is "Where does the liability or responsibility reside?"

The proponents of preserving feel that the preservative will stop mold/bacteria growth in the future, thus preventing injury, lawsuit, etc.
If a seller chooses not to preserve and the products get mold in say 3 or 4 months and someone gets harmed because of this, who is at fault?
Should the purchaser be intelligent enough to notice something growing in her/his product? And then throw it away.  Or should the purchaser just know better to throw it out after X number of days.

If I go to the farmer's market and buy an apple and eat it 6 months later after it started growing mold and I get sick, is it really the farmer's fault?  There was no "Use By" date on the apple.  There are no preservatives in my apple.

Like I said though, this could be a totally different post and conversation, but I think the key is "Where does the responsibility of the soap maker end and the common sense of the consumer start?"  I don't know the answer to this though.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 28, 2019)

Well, even Failor is not infallible [emoji23]

When people say "it simply cannot grow in liquid soap" it means rejecting the experience of those who have had something grow. What they mean is "I have read and/or never had something grow in my soap" which is VERY different indeed. 

As for liability - the seller is, unless they put a "use by" date on the product and nothing happens within that time. Bear in mind, there is a lot of bad stuff in a product well before you start to see anything actually growing, so expecting the customer to see mould and think "I'll throw this away" is asking them to bolt the stable door when the neighbors call to say that the horse is running down the road two streets over


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## Carl (Feb 28, 2019)

And I totally believe the members here who claim they've had stuff grow!


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## Clarice (Feb 28, 2019)

I could understand why the LS paste would be very unlikely to grow stuff - but once diluted, it would seem that the growth potential has increased dramatically.  

In part I guess it has to do with how quickly the diluted liquid is used up.  

For any of you who use antioxidants - do you add them to the oils during the cook, or do you add them to the paste at the end?  

Thanks!


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## lsg (Feb 28, 2019)

I add preservative to my diluted soap.  I usually keep my soap paste in the refrigerator until I dilute it.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 28, 2019)

I don't add preservative to the soap paste, but I do choose to add it to diluted soap. If it's a basic liquid soap (fat, water, KOH), then it's my opinion that a preservative in the diluted soap is optional, not a requirement. For myself, I err on the side of caution and use preservative.

A preservative is mandatory for a liquid soap that contains ingredients that are microbial food sources (aloe and milk come to mind). Those food sources should also be kept to a minimum. The Making Skincare cosmetic chemists recommend keeping these ingredients under 1%. Even the best preservative won't work well if there's a lovely feast to encourage microbes to grow.

Ideally, antioxidants should be added to the fats before they are put into storage. A chelator is more effective than an antioxidant in reducing the chance of rancidity in soap. So if you can only use one or the other, use a chelator. A chelator to protect against rancidity can be added to the diluted soap -- the dosage should be based on the weight of the diluted soap.


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## cmzaha (Feb 28, 2019)

I have had mold grown in diluted LS so always add a preservative. I use Suttocide™ A in my LS

I do not know if a preservative system can be considered a trade secret but it could be a reason Bonners do not list their actual preservative system. Just playing Devil's Advocate here


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## DeeAnna (Feb 28, 2019)

I'd forgotten about that, Carolyn, but you're right -- some "fragrances" are preservatives that also have a scent. In many consumers minds, scent = "good" and preservative = "bad", so I can appreciate why companies take this tack.


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## Carl (Feb 28, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> I'd forgotten about that, Carolyn, but you're right -- some "fragrances" are preservatives that also have a scent. In many consumers minds, scent = "good" and preservative = "bad", so I can appreciate why companies take this tack.



Thanks again!!

Next question then (surprised no one else asked yet).  Which fragrances are also preservatives?  How can you tell which can act as a preservative and which ones can not?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 1, 2019)

I might be mistaken, but I think that was a reference to certain companies *cough*lush*cough* mixing scents with preservatives and calling it a fragrance, so they only need to list the "fragrance" on their label and no preservatives so it looks like their products contain none of those "horrible nasty" preservatives


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