# First attempt at a soap (lard) does this seem right ?



## beardguy (Feb 23, 2017)

I'm taking the soap plunge this weekend and  want a fullproof recipe that will make a good, hard bar of soap that can be used to clean hands and also my face. I don't feel I'm ready yet to play with EO or FO, so I left them out. I read that lard can take a long time to trace, so this is why I used a water discount.  

This is CP. I don't plan on colouring or adding any additives to the soap. I added the castor for lather and coconut for cleaning/lather. 







I have two questions : 

1 ) I have pretty sensitive skin on my face and hands and I added the coconut for cleaning ability. Will only 5% make any difference ? Should I just leave it out (I have it on hand). I *may* also want to use this soap on my kids, after testing it out on me first. Would that be cool or should I wait after a few batches ?

2) Soapcalc uses standard grocery store lard right ? It's not some voodoo special lard ? I'm asking because as a guy who loves his pies, I have a ton of tenderflake 100 % lard already at home so I want to use the stuff. 

Thank you !


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## toxikon (Feb 23, 2017)

You're on the ball, dude! Second post and you're already formulating recipes on SoapCalc and keeping it nice and simple for your first batch. Perfect!

Most people find they can comfortably use coconut oil up to 20% in most recipes. It will produce the bubbles and create a more cleansing bar. Lard will make a nice hard bar, but not so many bubbles/lather. But there's nothing wrong with high lard recipes, some people enjoy 100% lard recipes.

Castor oil at 5% is definitely a great addition to help out with your lather. 

You could bump the coconut oil up to 15-20% if you want, but if you want to keep it mostly lard, go for it! It's up to you to test recipes to find something you like. 

If you're interested in a more creamy lather, some more soft oils like olive oil or avocado oil would be great.

My favourite recipe right now is about 50% Lard, 20% Coconut Oil, 15% Olive Oil, 10% Avocado Oil, 5% Castor. 

The only other thing I'd recommend is doing a much smaller batch for your first, definitely not 3lbs! 1lbs would be a good amount. You don't want to waste ingredients if something goes wrong or you end up not liking the recipe (or getting absolutely hooked and wanting to do 5 batches every weekend... cough).

And yes, grocery store lard is A-Okay. I use Armor Brand from Walmart, works great.


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## mx5inpenn (Feb 23, 2017)

beardguy said:


> I'm taking the soap plunge this weekend and  want a fullproof recipe that will make a good, hard bar of soap that can be used to clean hands and also my face. I don't feel I'm ready yet to play with EO or FO, so I left them out. I read that lard can take a long time to trace, so this is why I used a water discount.
> 
> This is CP. I don't plan on colouring or adding any additives to the soap. I added the castor for lather and coconut for cleaning/lather.
> 
> ...



I don't see any real issues with your recipe. Its soap, it'll clean you. This particular recipe won't be very bubbly, but it will have a nice creamy lather. I would leave the coconut oil in the mix. If you decide to try another batch, maybe add some olive or rice bran in place of some of the lard.

How old are your kids? If they are over 2, it should be fine. A lot of people recommend not using soap under the age of 2. I used it for my kids, hands only, younger than that with no problems. Little kids like to wash their hands, I'll encourage the good habit as long as possible! 

Lard is lard is lard as far as soap goes. The sap value doesn't change from leaf lard to bacon grease. Your tenderflake will be fine.

My personal favorite recipe is 55% lard, 15% coconut, 15% avocado, 10% olive, 5% castor with 5% superfat. I have pretty dry, sensitive skin and it works just fine for me.


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## beardguy (Feb 23, 2017)

toxikon said:


> You're on the ball, dude! Second post and you're already formulating recipes on SoapCalc and keeping it nice and simple for your first batch. Perfect!
> 
> Most people find they can comfortably use coconut oil up to 20% in most recipes. It will produce the bubbles and create a more cleansing bar. Lard will make a nice hard bar, but not so many bubbles/lather. But there's nothing wrong with high lard recipes, some people enjoy 100% lard recipes.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your great feedback and encouragement !

It's true. I think I might have gotten a bit carried away with the size there... Three pounds of soap if something goes wrong (or I don't like it) is a lot of soap. Plus, I get to soap more often if I do smaller batches, right :mrgreen: ? The only thing I was worried about is precision if I scaled down. 

I think my second recipe will be the recipe you just posted since I have all the ingredients already on hand, especially the avocado oil, which I do not like in my beard oil and I need to get rid of.


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## beardguy (Feb 23, 2017)

mx6inpenn said:


> I don't see any real issues with your recipe. Its soap, it'll clean you. This particular recipe won't be very bubbly, but it will have a nice creamy lather. I would leave the coconut oil in the mix. If you decide to try another batch, maybe add some olive or rice bran in place of some of the lard.
> 
> How old are your kids? If they are over 2, it should be fine. A lot of people recommend not using soap under the age of 2. I used it for my kids, hands only, younger than that with no problems. Little kids like to wash their hands, I'll encourage the good habit as long as possible!
> 
> Lard is lard is lard as far as soap goes. The sap value doesn't change from leaf lard to bacon grease. Your tenderflake will be fine.



They are under 2 so I will not be using it on them.


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## toxikon (Feb 23, 2017)

beardguy said:


> Thank you for your great feedback and encouragement !
> 
> It's true. I think I might have gotten a bit carried away with the size there... Three pounds of soap if something goes wrong (or I don't like it) is a lot of soap. Plus, I get to soap more often if I do smaller batches, right :mrgreen: ? The only thing I was worried about is precision if I scaled down.
> 
> I think my second recipe will be the recipe you just posted since I have all the ingredients already on hand, especially the avocado oil, which I do not like in my beard oil and I need to get rid of.



I find 1-2lbs is the sweet spot for trying out new recipes. I wouldn't go much below 1lbs for accuracy's sake. 

Another tip is to take good notes as you begin your soapmaking hobby. I like to print off my SoapCalc recipe to use as a guide as I make my batch, adding any notes about how long it took to trace, how nicely it cooperated, and (very important) today's date - so it's very easy to tell the age of your soap as it cures. When my soap is unmolded, cut, and placed in its curing tray, I tuck that paper into the tray so I always have easy access to that batch's history.


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## Susie (Feb 23, 2017)

I would not use fractionated CO for soap.  I would use the stuff you buy in the grocery store that is solid at 76 F and lower.  I would also up the amount to at least 10% to help with bubbles. 

Yes, that lard is good for soap. 

Lard is a slow trace.  You can speed trace by soaping hotter, or slow it by soaping cooler.  Just be sure not to soap so cool that your solid oils re-solidify.  That is called false trace.  And you will only figure it out once it is in the mold and it separates.

I also like adding sugar for extra bubbles.  I use 1 tablespoon/PPO.  

My favorite recipe is this:

Lard 65%
Coconut Oil 15%
Olive Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

I also use KOH 5% with my soaps, but that is a bit down the road for you.


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## beardguy (Feb 23, 2017)

Susie said:


> I would not use fractionated CO for soap.  I would use the stuff you buy in the grocery store that is solid at 76 F and lower.  I would also up the amount to at least 10% to help with bubbles.
> 
> Yes, that lard is good for soap.
> 
> ...



What is the difference between fractionated and 76F (apart from the indefinite shelf life ?). I already have fractionated at home, which is why I included it, but if you think 76F is better for whatever reason, I'll find some.


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## Kamahido (Feb 23, 2017)

The only thing I have to add is, are you sure you are using Fractionated Coconut Oil and not 76 degree? Such a mistake would greatly throw off your lye calculations.


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## beardguy (Feb 23, 2017)

Yes, it's written on the bottle. I bought it for making my own beard products but I don't care for it.


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## mx5inpenn (Feb 23, 2017)

Susie said:


> I would not use fractionated CO for soap.



Good catch Susie! My eyes didn't register anything beyond coconut oil.


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## kchaystack (Feb 23, 2017)

beardguy said:


> What is the difference between fractionated and 76F (apart from the indefinite shelf life ?). I already have fractionated at home, which is why I included it, but if you think 76F is better for whatever reason, I'll find some.



FCO has had its fatty acids separated and usually the lauric acid has been removed.   Since this is the fatty acid that causes CO soap to be so bubbly,  it kind of defeats its purpose to use FCO in soap.


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## lenarenee (Feb 23, 2017)

Just a note: soap will get you clean with or without coconut oil. The "cleansing" category on the lye calculator is NOT a measure of the cleaning capability of your soap recipe. Saponified coconut oil is good at stripping the natural oils of your skin and that is what the "cleansing" category attempts to measure.

Have you made other bath soap before? What do you want from this soap? If you're looking for a very gentle bar, that's what you'll end up with. However, I think your recipe would benefit from at least a 10% addition of olive, high oleic safflower or sunflower, or avocado oil. I love lard in soap, but at 90% it's  creamy lather is heavy and "dry" for a more pleasant experience. 

Unless you have exceptionally dry skin - I'd be tempted to use at least 10% coconut oil to produce a fair modicum of large bubbles. (assuming you care about the lather). 

On the other hand - testing out all the different recommendations you've gotten here just means you have a great reason to make more soap!


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## Soapmaker145 (Feb 23, 2017)

What Susie said.  FCO makes crappy soap.  It's the stuff that makes homemade soap drying and unpleasant.  Buy the regular coconut oil and save yourself a disappointment.


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## navigator9 (Feb 24, 2017)

As a beginner, I think you are starting off on the right foot by keeping things simple at first. I agree with the comments above regarding your recipe, especially the fractionated coconut oil. So after changing that to regular coconut oil, what you may want to do is to make a small batch and see how you like it. Not enough bubbles for you? Make another small batch with more CO and see what happens. Use your original recipe and change just one thing at a time. That way you can see how increasing or decreasing that ingredient affects the original recipe. If you change too many things at a time, you can't tell which ingredient is responsible for which change. Tweak the original until it's juuuust right. Then make a big batch and enjoy. Good luck to you!


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## BrewerGeorge (Feb 24, 2017)

beardguy said:


> They are under 2 so I will not be using it on them.








Respectfully, what do you think everyone used on babies before syndet was invented?  I think that idea is predicated on the possibility that you might screw up making soap.  Like that brown stuff your crazy, doomsday prepping uncle would make from grandma's recipe.   All imprecise recipe and probably lye-heavy.  More rational warnings could be based on possible interactions with EOs and FOs that are so common in handmade soap causing allergic reactions, but you're not using those.  I certainly understand not taking any chances and I'm not trying to tell you how to parent, but well-made soap shouldn't harm anybody - especially if it's unscented like you're making.  

Add my voice to those saying to skip the fractionated coconut oil in soap.  Save it for cooking.  I use it for anything fried that's not butter.  It's especially great for "greasing" baking pans for the oven because it will not form that brownish, sticky residue so commonly left behind by stuff like Pam.  For that matter, although it's also good for soap (unlike the FCO) avocado is also great for cooking and baking.  It's really excellent to replace the "vegetable oil" in a cake mix, for example, and you can fry with it.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 24, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Respectfully, what do you think everyone used on babies before syndet was invented?  I think that idea is predicated on the possibility that you might screw up making soap.  Like that brown stuff your crazy, doomsday prepping uncle would make from grandma's recipe.   All imprecise recipe and probably lye-heavy.  More rational warnings could be based on possible interactions with EOs and FOs that are so common in handmade soap causing allergic reactions, but you're not using those.  I certainly understand not taking any chances and I'm not trying to tell you how to parent, but well-made soap shouldn't harm anybody - especially if it's unscented like you're making.
> 
> Add my voice to those saying to skip the fractionated coconut oil in soap.  Save it for cooking.  I use it for anything fried that's not butter.  It's especially great for "greasing" baking pans for the oven because it will not form that brownish, sticky residue so commonly left behind by stuff like Pam.  For that matter, although it's also good for soap (unlike the FCO) avocado is also great for cooking and baking.  It's really excellent to replace the "vegetable oil" in a cake mix, for example, and you can fry with it.



I don't use a syndet on my baby, either.  I use water often with a few drop of wheatgerm oil, which is usually all that he needs.  When he needs soap, I use a castile.

Soap on babies is like turpentine soap on me - I only use it when it is really required, rather than an every bath thing.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 24, 2017)

"...What is the difference between fractionated and 76F (apart from the indefinite shelf life ?). ..."

I agree with the things other have said. I also want to add that fractionated coconut oil contains a high % of the short fatty acids -- capric, caproic, and caprylic -- that Soapcalc doesn't bother to mention. These fatty acids (and lauric acid) can be irritating to the skin when turned into soap. The more FCO you use in a recipe, the higher the chance that irritation will occur in normal skin. If your skin is sensitive, as you say, then using FCO in soap is an invitation to trouble. I'd stick with regular coconut oil for soap making -- there will be less potential for irritation and the soap will still make plenty of bubbles.


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## lenarenee (Feb 24, 2017)

The issues with handmade soap and babies is the high pH.  That young skin needs a neutral pH. 

Quite honestly, studies on washing not only bodies, but everyday laundry (average level of dirt) have shown that just plain water cleans almost as well as using soap, some times just as well.  Not sure if I saved that reference to share with you. ( I choose to greet this info with lots of denial, because I don't want any reason to not NEED to make soap)


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## IrishLass (Feb 24, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I don't use a syndet on my baby, either. I use water often with a few drop of wheatgerm oil, which is usually all that he needs. When he needs soap, I use a castile.
> 
> Soap on babies is like turpentine soap on me - I only use it when it is really required, rather than an every bath thing.


 
I never used any kind of soap or syndet on my son when he was a baby either on the advice of not only our midwife, but also our doctor/pediatrician. We just used water and a little olive oil until he was about a year and half to 2. That was 22 years ago. The scientific explanation given to us at the time was that a baby's skin is a huge part of their developing immune system, and that in order to get things started off on the right foot/give it the best developing chance out of the gate so to speak, it was best to not keep interrupting/disrupting the acid/alkaline balance of baby's skin with any kind of soap. As adults, it's much easier for our skin to bounce back from the minor acid/alkaline disruption that takes place when we wash with soap, but it takes baby's skin much longer than that.


IrishLass


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## Arimara (Feb 24, 2017)

beardguy said:


> Thank you for your great feedback and encouragement !
> 
> It's true. I think I might have gotten a bit carried away with the size there... Three pounds of soap if something goes wrong (or I don't like it) is a lot of soap. Plus, I get to soap more often if I do smaller batches, right :mrgreen: ? The only thing I was worried about is precision if I scaled down.
> 
> I think my second recipe will be the recipe you just posted since I have all the ingredients already on hand, especially the avocado oil, which I do not like in my beard oil and I need to get rid of.



Yep. but you can still over do it. I have plenty of 1lb batches left.

Avocado oil is great for cooking (assuming you can cook with it) and in soap, it adds a slip you just won't get with olive oil. You might like it.


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## beardguy (Feb 24, 2017)

I looked in my grocery store and couldn't find any pure CO and will not use the FCO so I just decided to switch to avocado oil. 







I will make the soap tonight and try to take some pics.


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## Susie (Feb 24, 2017)

Coconut oil has recently been a "fad" food, so it should be in most grocery stores.


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## beardguy (Feb 24, 2017)

Made my soap tonight. Unfotunately, I had misplaced my cellphone and couldn't take pitcures, but everything went well. I had everything cleaned and put away in 45 minutes, which is a real surprise since I thought I would be blending and blending due to the high lard amount, but the batter reached trace after about 15 minutes of stick blending. I took a temperature reading and was still at 95 F at that time, so my reasoning was that it can't be false trace since all my oils are liquid at that temp (which is probably too simple of a reasoning, but ho well :mrgreen. 

My spouse was a intrigued and not so sure about putting something I made out of tenderflake lard on her body, but I'm sure she'll turn around


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## toxikon (Feb 24, 2017)

She'll definitely change her tune.  Congrats on your first batch!!


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## penelopejane (Feb 25, 2017)

Susie said:


> Coconut oil has recently been a "fad" food, so it should be in most grocery stores.



Maybe in the health food section.


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## beardguy (Feb 25, 2017)

I like in sticks so our grocery store is more like a medium sized convenience store so we don't have CO, but I commute to the city everyday and will pick some up at Walmart or something. 

Is there a reason to try to unmold as soon as possible ? I looked at my soap and it is hard, but can I just let it get harder in the mold to make sure it's ready ?


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## Susie (Feb 25, 2017)

No, there is a point at which it gets too hard to cut easily.  Unmold and cut at 18-24 hours for gelled soap, or as soon as you can't easily make a dent in it for ungelled soaps.


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## beardguy (Feb 25, 2017)

Thank you Susie. I can still dent it somewhat and it zapped me a bit, so I guess I'll try it again tomorrow.


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## beardguy (Feb 26, 2017)

I cut my soap tonight and it was hard and had stopped zapping. I was nervous cutting freehand with a crappy stainless steel knife, but I managed to do a competent enough job, I think. 

I also did another batch of soap this morning while the kids and wife slept :twisted: using the same recipe but subbing the water for some homemade stout I had leftover from the day before (I also added some coffe grounds to it since I intend to use it as a bodywash and like a scrubby bar).

I was really careful to degass it properly and froze it before adding the lye to it. Everything went well, but since I soaped cool (<100F) to insure against a lye volcano, it took FOREVER to trace (65 minutes to be exact). I stuck the soap outside after it was poured in the mold since I read that soaps with sugar added can overheat. How long can I leave the soap outside in freezing temps ?

The soap looks like chocolate mousse right now, I hope the colour doesn't change too much :mrgreen:


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## DeeAnna (Feb 26, 2017)

Oh, gosh -- I think you're over-reacting a bit about the volcano and overheating concerns. You don't really need to put soap outside in freezing weather to keep it under control. You CAN freeze the soap for however long you like, but you don't have to. Just understand that freezing or refrigerating soap will slow down saponification a lot -- it will take days rather than hours to be zap free. 

I make beer soaps and soaps high in sugars fairly often, so I'm comfortable managing this kind of recipe. If I'm making soap that I think might get a bit hotter than I'd like, I leave it out in the open at normal room temperature without any insulation or cover on it. I check on it for the first hour or two for any signs of expansion on the top or cracking. If I see those signs, I will put a fan on the mold for an hour or so. That happens maybe once or twice in the summer during hot weather (we don't have air conditioning). Our house is in the mid-upper 60s F in winter so overheating is unlikely.


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## beardguy (Feb 26, 2017)

Thanks DeeAnna. A lot of the recipes and online info about beer soap made it sound very daunting and advanced, which explains why I was being so careful : I have made quite a few messes in our kitchen (and garage and basement and yard...) in the past homebrewing, so I'm kind of on a tight leash when it comes to hobbies that can spew goo all over  

I looked at my brewing notes and the beer I used had a pH of 3.9 at bottling time in 2015 (probably has changed due to the fact that it was not pasteurized and organism still influence the pH after packaging). Am I right in thinking that using an acid product such as beer and juice in soapmaking might result in a  lower final pH in the bar ?


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## kchaystack (Feb 26, 2017)

beardguy said:


> Thanks DeeAnna. A lot of the recipes and online info about beer soap made it sound very daunting and advanced, which explains why I was being so careful : I have made quite a few messes in our kitchen (and garage and basement and yard...) in the past homebrewing, so I'm kind of on a tight leash when it comes to hobbies that can spew goo all over
> 
> I looked at my brewing notes and the beer I used had a pH of 3.9 at bottling time in 2015 (probably has changed due to the fact that it was not pasteurized and organism still influence the pH after packaging). Am I right in thinking that using an acid product such as beer and juice in soapmaking might result in a  lower final pH in the bar ?



Not DeeAnna, but no it does not.

What will happen is that your lye will react with the acidic liquid before it reacts with the oils.  So you in effect increase the super fat of your soap, because some of your lye is used up before the oils can get to it.


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## beardguy (Feb 26, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> Not DeeAnna, but no it does not.
> 
> What will happen is that your lye will react with the acidic liquid before it reacts with the oils.  So you in effect increase the super fat of your soap, because some of your lye is used up before the oils can get to it.



This makes a lot more sense and could explain why people describe beer soap as being richer in the lather department than the same recipe without the beer : added sugar and elevated superfat level.


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## kchaystack (Feb 26, 2017)

The sugars from beer definitely help create lather.  There is such a thing as too high of a superfat, so you might want to go with a low SF calculation so you don't get too much.

Also, some people do not boil off the alcohol from their beer, and alcohol causes soap to accelerate very quickly. I think this is more of the reason people think beer soaps are hard to do.


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## BrewerGeorge (Feb 27, 2017)

beardguy said:


> Thanks DeeAnna. A lot of the recipes and online info about beer soap made it sound very daunting and advanced, which explains why I was being so careful : I have made quite a few messes in our kitchen (and garage and basement and yard...) in the past homebrewing, so I'm kind of on a tight leash when it comes to hobbies that can spew goo all over


You're not a home brewer unless you've cleaned krausen off the ceiling.


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