# Shampoo bars (or not to shampoo bar!)



## Soapfromthehip (Aug 13, 2016)

Hello all! After some time I put together a great recipe for shampoo bars, I have dry hair and I made it all superfatty and it smells great and I'm hopeful! I have used a lard based soap in my hair for a while to gauge its effects on my mop and while it looks great it feels a touch on the dry side, hence my having a high fat in the one I made, also I used very little palmitic oils for saponifying. It has to cure though before I can use it so my question is: How do you folks feel about shampoo bars? Would you recommend it for those with dry hair or is it purely case by case? I hadn't planned on making liquid soap but if I must to make shampoo I must...


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## shunt2011 (Aug 13, 2016)

No no and no, I do not recommend using soap as shampoo. I tried it and it made a mess of my hair. Hair does not like high PH soap. Some can use them but eventually will find out why they are not good.


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## Obsidian (Aug 13, 2016)

I much preferred a bar over liquid for shampoo, the bars just seemed to clean better and last longer then a bottle of liquid. That being said, shampoo bars ruined my hair, like I had to cut it off to 1 inch long ruined. Took 2 years for the damage to accumulate but it eventually did, making it break off in chunks. If your hair seems to be getting drier then normal, stop using the bars.

As you using hand made shampoo to get away from synthetic detergents? or just because? I go to a wonderful hair forum that can help you with your hair issues but for the most, all products recommended are going to be synthetic. It's http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/forum.php if you are interested.


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## cmzaha (Aug 13, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> No no and no, I do not recommend using soap as shampoo. I tried it and it made a mess of my hair. Hair does not like high PH soap. Some can use them but eventually will find out why they are not good.


All of the above. High superfat just adds to the dirt magnet and hair is normally not a clean place. I so wish people would get it right, soap is NOT SHAMPOO...
While handmade soap is wonderful it is not for everyone or everything. I have had customers that cannot use any handmade soap and not for lack of trying. One of my daughters can only use m&p in other words only surfactant based products


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## Susie (Aug 13, 2016)

I have to echo the "not in my hair" theme, sorry.  I lost 16 inches learning the hard way that soap does not belong in my hair.  And I looked into making my own shampoo, only to find out that I can buy the good stuff for WAY less than making it myself.


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## Soapfromthehip (Aug 13, 2016)

Well that answers that!! So thank you all, the shampoo bars will be soap bars! I went to soapqueens' site and she had a recipe for Argan oil shampoo. So I will try for that. Which leads to another question; the recipe calls for sodium cocoate which I'm sure y'all know is potassium hydroxide and coconut oil only. I'd like to make this myself, am I correct in assuming I just make it like any other liquid soap? Insofar as process, I mean? And thanks for all the help; I'm really trying to get away from the chemicals and weird crap in the store stuff!


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## Dahila (Aug 13, 2016)

NOOOOO,  I had tried and my hair became straw like, awful.........


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## cmzaha (Aug 13, 2016)

You will spend a lot more money trying to make shampoo than purchasing a nice high quality shampoo. Some things just better made in a manufacturing environment when they purchase in bulk and have their own testing labs. This includes sunscreens. sorry I know that was off subject.


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## Obsidian (Aug 13, 2016)

Liquid shampoo is just as bad as shampoo bars. It's the high pH of lye soap that is damaging, doesn't matter what form it take. 

Not all chemicals are bad, some are safer then natural alternates. Shampoo and conditioner are two products I will never try to replace with home made stuff.

High coconut oil shampoo is even worse. It strips all the oil from your hair. Soap queen is well known for having bad recipes simply as a sales tactic.


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## IrishLass (Aug 13, 2016)

Soapfromthehip said:


> Which leads to another question; the recipe calls for sodium cocoate which I'm sure y'all know is potassium hydroxide and coconut oil only.


 
Sodium cocoate is  actually made from sodium hydroxide (NaOH) and coconut oil. 

It would be called potassium cocoate if it were made from potassium hydroxide (KOH).


IrishLass


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## DeeAnna (Aug 13, 2016)

I'm not sure we're getting the point across that we want to make. Whether bar or liquid soap, it doesn't matter -- they both damage hair in much the same way. Liquid soap made with KOH and bar soap made with NaOH are _both_ high pH lye-based soaps. Choose one or choose the other, but you will still end up with the same problem.

I'm yet another who lost inches of hair after a year of using lye-based soap to wash my hair. Sure, my hair seemed okay at first, but the damage accumulated until I could not ignore it any longer. Even my husband's much shorter hair looked dull and lifeless after that same year. 

The only solution is to cut off the damaged hair and switch to a shampoo based on synthetic detergents (syndets). A syndet shampoo has an acidic to neutral pH, doesn't leave sticky soap scum on the hair, and doesn't damage the cuticle of the hair strand like lye soap does.


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## Soapfromthehip (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks for the tip! The cocoate thing is confusing but it appeared that you'd only need two ounces of it for a bottle. I would stick with store bought but it's astronomically expensive for the only brand I found that doesn't have stuff like propylene glycol and 200 sulfates... It's like 13 dollars a bottle, and they aren't big. Obviously I need to do more research. If I come across anything I think is viable I'll share it, I know I'm not the only one in this boat, heh. Thanks again..


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## Soapfromthehip (Aug 13, 2016)

Also I rechecked the site and it is potassium cocoate, dunno why I confused it. I found where some folks suggested adding citric acid to things to bring the ph down. So I have a lot to consider...


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## Soapfromthehip (Aug 13, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> I'm not sure we're getting the point across that we want to make. Whether bar or liquid soap, it doesn't matter -- they both damage hair in much the same way. Liquid soap made with KOH and bar soap made with NaOH are _both_ high pH lye-based soaps. Choose one or choose the other, but you will still end up with the same problem.
> 
> I'm yet another who lost inches of hair after a year of using lye-based soap to wash my hair. Sure, my hair seemed okay at first, but the damage accumulated until I could not ignore it any longer. Even my husband's much shorter hair looked dull and lifeless after that same year.
> 
> The only solution is to cut off the damaged hair and switch to a shampoo based on synthetic detergents (syndets). A syndet shampoo has an acidic to neutral pH, doesn't leave sticky soap scum on the hair, and doesn't damage the cuticle of the hair strand like lye soap does.


Do you have any ingredients to suggest? I thought the potassium cocoate had been rendered into a surfactant once it had been properly cooked and diluted, but I'm not a chemist; that was my impression...


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## Obsidian (Aug 13, 2016)

Doesn't matter what the potassium cocoate is rendered into, it still has a high PH which will damage your hair. Sulfates aren't inherently bad, did you have trouble with them? What brand of shampoo were you using? I might be able to get you some good suggestions from the hair forum.

Edit: citric acid won't bring down the PH to acceptable levels for hair. Too low of a PH and the soap stops being soap and turns into goo, no lathering, no cleansing icky stuff.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 13, 2016)

"...I found where some folks suggested adding citric acid to things to bring the ph down...."

Most people who offer this advice don't realize that soap doesn't do what their "common sense" suggests it should do -- it does not meekly allow the pH to drop in direct response to the acid. Soap instead breaks down chemically in an attempt to maintain its alkaline pH. If you add citric acid to a solid (NaOH) soap, the soap will end up with a higher superfat than you intended. If done to excess, the soap will become a soft mush. Add citric acid to a liquid (KOH) soap and it will form a thick layer of fatty acid floating on top of the remaining soap.

Edit -- Lye based soap IS a surfactant. Synthetic detergents are surfactants too. What soap is NOT is a synthetic detergent. Making soap with KOH vs NaOH doesn't change the fact that you are saponifying a triglyceride fat with an alkali -- it's still soap regardless of the alkali used.


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## reflection (Aug 13, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> I'm yet another who lost inches of hair after a year of using lye-based soap to wash my hair. Sure, my hair seemed okay at first, but the damage accumulated until I could not ignore it any longer. Even my husband's much shorter hair looked dull and lifeless after that same year.


deeanna, i was reading something recently about hair porosity and it mentioned some issues that i am wondering if it relates to the shampoo bar damage you and others experienced, in addition to a lot of other issues i'll mention. i read that porosity refers to how well one's hair absorbs moisture and also has to do with how flat the cuticle lies.

low porosity hair doesn't absorb moisture well. it does tend to have the hair cuticle lie flatter which is good though. people with low porosity hair can have problems with protein buildup which over time dries the hair and eventually causes breakage. i can't seem to remember if most with low porosity hair have dry hair or not, i do, and so the tendency is to use lots of conditioning products but if the wrong kind they will cause this protein buildup which long term can cause strawlike hair & breakage. 

high porosity hair absorbs moisture really easily. this can be due to hair being damaged or just an inherent property of the hair type. high porosity hair seems to already have the cuticle raised a fair amount so people with high porosity hair really are in danger of hair damage with shampoo bars with the mechanical damage that can happen due to the high pH of the bars raising the cuticle. 

medium porosity hair seems to be the healthiest.

so, we have 2 problems here: protein buildup for the low porosity types, and poo bars seem to cause issues with buildup, and mechanical damage for high porosity hair that already is vulnerable with the cuticle raised so much. two different hair types and two different problems.

some who use a higher SF in shampoo bars get buildup from all the fats (although i'm not sure how fat causes protein buildup when it doesn't contain protein but this is what i read especially with things like hot oil treatments). the protein buildup will eventually damage the hair, dry it out and eventually cause breakage.

this is all in addition to hard water issues and the buildup problems it can cause. i'm not sure if that buildup is just the oils not fully rinsing off or also mineral deposits too. 

i had asked the author of one of my books what SF she used in her shampoo bar recipes and she had some interesting comments:

"I usually calculate the superfat right into the recipe & most often use 6%, but sometimes use 5%. For shampoo bars, some people like to go with a lower superfat (4% or 5%) which makes them more cleansing (but, also possibly too drying for dry hair types). On the flip side, some like to have a higher superfat of around 8% so the bar is more moisturizing, but you risk weighing your hair down if it tends to be oily or you have hard water. What superfat you end up liking best will really depend on your hair and water type & sometimes takes a bit of experimenting."

lastly, some don't do well with too much coconut oil and a low SF as that strips the hair and they get the strawlike hair. when i was reading about the j.r. liggett's coconut bars some people seemed to experience this immediately. maybe for others it happens over time.

so, i'm thinking there are many issues to consider if using shampoo bars: whether or not one has hard water and the types of buildup it can cause, hair porosity and both protein buildup issues & cuticle damage issues, SF and whether one has dry or oily hair in combination with water type, using too much coconut oil and whether or not one uses an ACV rinse to help with removing buildup & possible mineral deposits and to close the cuticle. i have no idea if with more understanding a poo bar can be customized for one's hair that works longterm but there do seem to be many factors at play. 

so, am i completely offbase in all this or do you think all this is relevant?


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## Soapfromthehip (Aug 13, 2016)

Yeah over the last few years my hair haaaaates being washed but looks too dirty to let it slide. I tried all kinds of shampoos and whatnot and the only thing I can think of to do is try to make my own and be in charge of what goes in it. It's terrible in the winter.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 14, 2016)

You've been given great advice. 

If store-bought shampoo that fits your needs is too expensive, you might be better off making your own synthetic shampoo with slsa and whatnot. I think that Susan at swift craft monkey has a good section on making your own non-lye based shampoo. 

For many people, it works out too expensive as the cheaper store shampoos work fine. But for you it might be worth a look at least.

I agree with the general flow on this one - lye is not for hair


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## penelopejane (Aug 14, 2016)

Soapfromthehip said:


> . I would stick with store bought but it's astronomically expensive for the only brand I found that doesn't have stuff like propylene glycol and 200 sulfates... It's like 13 dollars a bottle, and they aren't big. Obviously I need to do more research. If I come across anything I think is viable I'll share it, I know I'm not the only one in this boat, heh. Thanks again..



In Oz, not sure that it is the same for you, pharmacies have regular sales of the good herbal berbal shampoos. I have seen 50% off sales! It makes a huge difference.


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## cmzaha (Aug 14, 2016)

Soapfromthehip said:


> Yeah over the last few years my hair haaaaates being washed but looks too dirty to let it slide. I tried all kinds of shampoos and whatnot and the only thing I can think of to do is try to make my own and be in charge of what goes in it. It's terrible in the winter.


That is a new one, in over 30 years of doing hair I never head a customer complain that their hair hated being washed. If you hair is naturally fuzzy and dry you really need to find a shampoo that works and a conditioner that works. If you hair is dry from damage you will never fix it. Hair is virtually dead but is super resilient but damaged has to be cut. This is why you do not want to use SOAP. There are many many nice shampoos on the market. I will also restate that buying the mild surfactants to make a gentle shampoo is going to cost you more than buying a bottle of shampoo.


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## Obsidian (Aug 14, 2016)

reflection said:


> so, am i completely offbase in all this or do you think all this is relevant?



I think this is irrelevant. High PH makes the cuticle lift up, eventually the PH will balance (or you use a acid rinse) and the cuticle will lay flat again. Its this raising and flattening that does the damage. Even low porosity hair will raise up with high PH.

True low porosity hair is very uncommon. Many people think thats what they have due to all those DIY porosity tests on the web but they are inaccurate. They only way to know if you truly are low porosity is to have the hair examined under a high magnification microscope.

I personally have normal porosity, clarified every week and never use protein. My hair broke off not from build up making it brittle but because I essentially had no cuticle left after years of it breaking away from damage. 

I used low SF in my shampoo bars. I still got quite a lot of gunky build up, hence the weekly clarifying . You can not get protein build up from SF, its simply not possible. 

@Soapfromthehip what exactly does your hair do when you wash it? using the wrong products or treating it wrong according to the texture can make a huge differance in how your hair behaves.

For years I though I had just wavy hair. I didn't use good conditioner and I brushed it, a lot. It was always frizzy and dry, turns out I have curly hair and I was brushing it to death and not giving it enough moisture.
Now I only comb it when wet and use a good conditioner, hair is no longer a frizzy dry nightmare. 
I'm in my 40's and just now found shampoo and conditioner that is appropriate for my hair. Spend the last year experimenting with a lot of products to get to this point.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 14, 2016)

I don't know anything about hair more than any other lay person -- I defer to the beauticians who do have the training and experience to know what they're talking about. 

What I can say is is makes no difference to my hair whether there is any coconut oil or not in the soap, whether the superfat is high or low ... what really matters is the use of lye-based soap. Syndet works. Lye soap does not. There are a fair number of people also with the same story as mine -- seems fine at first, but damage in the long term. They have different types of hair and have used many types of lye-based soap recipes for washing their hair. I'm strongly inclined to believe it's the use of any lye-based soap on any hair -- not the specific recipe and not a specific hair type -- that is the culprit.


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## FarmerMom (Aug 14, 2016)

*Hair Therapy*

As someone who has long hair....(like to my waist and longer)  I find a good quality shampoo...(I like Redkin) used once or twice a week and use of a high quality conditioner "treated" with a monthly heavy treatment is best.  I try to monthly use coconut oil as a high level treatment.  Coat hair well with coconut oil and wrap head and hair with saran wrap then turban with a towel and let sit for 30 min or so.  then rinse with cool water.  This is actually what my hairdresser of 25 years told me to do.  also...when you shampoo...only shampoo your head...not any length


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## reflection (Aug 14, 2016)

Obsidian said:


> I think this is irrelevant. High PH makes the cuticle lift up, eventually the PH will balance (or you use a acid rinse) and the cuticle will lay flat again. Its this raising and flattening that does the damage. Even low porosity hair will raise up with high PH.


what about hard water? that has nothing to do with this? i would find it helpful if you can share where you are getting your info and any scientific sources if you have them.



> True low porosity hair is very uncommon. Many people think thats what they have due to all those DIY porosity tests on the web but they are inaccurate. They only way to know if you truly are low porosity is to have the hair examined under a high magnification microscope.


i agree that the diy porosity test sounds rather hokey. my hair does fit the description of low porosity hair to a T though. 



> I personally have normal porosity, clarified every week and never use protein. My hair broke off not from build up making it brittle but because I essentially had no cuticle left after years of it breaking away from damage.
> 
> I used low SF in my shampoo bars. I still got quite a lot of gunky build up, hence the weekly clarifying . You can not get protein build up from SF, its simply not possible.


i agree that it didn't make sense to say "protein" buildup comes from oils. i do know that silicones, which contain proteins i believe, cause buildup. can oils cause buildup? 

it sounds like you weren't using any silicone-containing products? if so, what do you believe was causing all the buildup in your hair?


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## Obsidian (Aug 14, 2016)

Hard water will eventually build up on hair regardless of what you use to wash it, it does cause build up faster with lye soap. As far as I know this doesn't damage hair, just makes it feel bad. A good clarifying wash will remove this build up. I haven't read any proof about about hard water and if its damaging, this is just my personal observation with my own hair and reading others experiences on a hair forum I go to. Lots of info if you really want to get into hair chemistry http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/forum.php
Here is a bit of info on high PH and what it does to hair http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4158629/ 

Protein doesn't come from silicone. Silicone is a synthetic substance that coats the hair and makes it slick. It can build up badly for some people, they have to clarify more often to remove the build up. I use heavy silicones and have to clarify every 1-2 weeks to keep my fine hair clean. Some people can get by with only clarifying a couple times a year.

I did not use silicones when using the shampoo bars, most of my build up was soap scum from hardish water. A good washing with shampoo removed it no problem.
Anything you use in your hair can cause build up, oils, conditioners, leave ins, gels, it all leaves a bit of stuff behind. 

This site is great for in depth info http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/


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## reflection (Aug 15, 2016)

Obsidian said:


> Hard water will eventually build up on hair regardless of what you use to wash it, it does cause build up faster with lye soap. As far as I know this doesn't damage hair, just makes it feel bad. A good clarifying wash will remove this build up. I haven't read any proof about about hard water and if its damaging, this is just my personal observation with my own hair and reading others experiences on a hair forum I go to.
> 
> Protein doesn't come from silicone. Silicone is a synthetic substance that coats the hair and makes it slick. It can build up badly for some people, they have to clarify more often to remove the build up. I use heavy silicones and have to clarify every 1-2 weeks to keep my fine hair clean. Some people can get by with only clarifying a couple times a year.
> 
> ...


thanks for the links.  i'll take a look at them when i get a chance.

i had bookmarked this article and the author, a cosmetic chemist, says that hard water can make hair prone to breakage and a host of other problems leading up to that. she talks about both soap scum and the mineral deposits, etc.. i have very hard water and the ACV rinse i recently started using is working wonders. clarifying shampoos are good to. 

another thing that can cause hair breakage is brushing curly hair. i don't own a brush because it just doesn't work on my curly hair. here are some other causes of hair breakage. i have to color my roots way too often to cover the gray and i have no doubt that is what has caused breakage for me. (i've never used a poo bar.) i recently switched back to an ammonia-free color and it is much, much gentler and still does the job. 

one thing i noticed when reading the long hair forum previously is that i saw people mention only using the shampoo bars on their scalp and not directly on their hair. i thought that was interesting but where's the fun in that? 

i thought maybe silicones had protein in them because the hydrolyzed wheat protein somethingorother that is in my styling gel is considered a water-soluble silicone. it looks like it is the other way around and that some protein treatments contain silicones.

if the article i linked to in my earlier post is correct about the part about buildup causing dryness and eventually causing breakage, and you are saying many things can cause buildup, then that is one more thing to consider. here's more info on breakage. another one on buildup, dryness & breakage. all this to say that there are a lot of factors that can cause hair breakage.


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## navigator9 (Aug 15, 2016)

Here's my two cents. Unless your hair is extremely oily or dirty, I feel it's not necessary to pour shampoo into your hands and rub it on your hair and scalp. I think that even "moisturizing" shampoo is just too efficient at removing oil. As I've gotten older, and my once oily hair has become dry, I find that mixing a dab of shampoo about the size of a nickle, into about a quart of warm water, and pouring that through my wet hair, is all I need, and it cleanses just enough, without stripping the hair. I like to rub some avocado oil on the ends of my hair the night before I wash it, too. After I rinse out the "shampoo water" with an ACV rinse, then I condition and air dry. The less I do to my hair, the better it seems to like it.


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## cmzaha (Aug 15, 2016)

navigator9 said:


> Here's my two cents. Unless your hair is extremely oily or dirty, I feel it's not necessary to pour shampoo into your hands and rub it on your hair and scalp. I think that even "moisturizing" shampoo is just too efficient at removing oil. As I've gotten older, and my once oily hair has become dry, I find that mixing a dab of shampoo about the size of a nickle, into about a quart of warm water, and pouring that through my wet hair, is all I need, and it cleanses just enough, without stripping the hair. I like to rub some avocado oil on the ends of my hair the night before I wash it, too. After I rinse out the "shampoo water" with an ACV rinse, then I condition and air dry. The less I do to my hair, the better it seems to like it.


Hair gets extremely dirty even if you do not realize it, and it is best to wash all your hair not just the scalp. I am not saying daily, but hair likes to be clean. ACV rinse will remove any residue left from the shampoo. Follow with a conditioner or cream rinse if preferred. A leave on conditioner can also be used for hair that is long and tangles. I have old very grey hair that is in beautiful condition using shampoo 4 times per week on the average. Daily shampooing is what can be hard on hair so it will usually require a conditioner. Doing a hot oil treatment the night before is great for hair.


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## reflection (Aug 15, 2016)

soapfromthehip,

here is probably the best info i've found on shampoo bars and potential damage: all about shampoo bars. it is by the same cosmetic chemist i mentioned earlier. on p. 2 of the article she discusses both hard water & pH being the culprits so i don't personally believe it is only about pH. 

you can look up on these hard water maps to get a general idea of how hard or soft your water is. here is another map and they seem to agree generally but not completely. your state looks like one of the better ones for using shampoo bars. if you do decide to go ahead and use the shampoo bars here are some good tips i've come across:

• definitely use the ACV rinse as it removes both buildup from oils, etc & mineral deposits from hard water & lowers the pH of your hair. i don't think this is optional at all from all my online reading
• use a showerhead filter or bottled water if you have hard water issues (ACV may well not be enough for some & personally i'd definitely do this if in a hard water area) 
• consider the level of hard water in your area & the dryness or oiliness of your hair when determining what SF you use
• use a clarifying shampoo periodically if needed
• consider the porosity of your hair, if it is high porosity you may well have more problems because the cuticle is already more raised up
• lather the bar in your hands rather than directly on your hair to avoid breakage. i've read you need to lather really well & rinse really well too
• use a good conditioner after the ACV rinse if your hair needs it
• make sure any products you still use don't have silcones in them so you don't get silicone buildup which poo bars will have a harder time removing
• it may not be a good idea to use coconut oil as it's so cleansing, & possibly drying, but if you do keep it to a rather low % 
• consider using citric acid in your poo bar (interesting discussion about 3/4s of the way down in the comments about whether or not it can really lower the pH. soap queen says yes they got their bars, testing with pH meters, down to a pH of 7 after a year of experimenting on how to add the citric acid & still get a hard bar). this might well be another one of those things that really helps but i honestly don't know.
• consider your soap ingredients well for what is best for your hair & using poo bars & water type
• pay careful attention to the condition of your hair if you do use them. if noticing damage then stop using them or adjust your methods

so, shampoo bars are rather high maintenance and may not be the best way to clean hair, but maybe with a lot of tweaking they can work. some people do seem to have good results. i fully admit i am biased because i'd still like to try them so feel free to take everything i say with a big grain of salt. best.


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## faerytech (Aug 29, 2016)

So, as a novice to the world of hair care and soap making, I'm getting incredibly confused. There seems to be no general consensus on hair at all, haha. In soap, the danger comes from the high ph correct? And so in order to get hair friendly safe soap, you can.... Add in agents to lower the ph? Would that then nullify the risk from soap? I've heard something about salt helping to lower the ph and soften water. So would it be good/safe to wash my hair in a bowl of say, Epsom salt? Or with only water that has acv added? I also have some demand from friends and family to create a shampoo, and found a book with shampoo recipes, but after all this talk I'm concerned. Is potassium hydroxide soap as bad for hair as sodium hydroxide? Sorry if these questions have been answered. Does anyone have links to more info about hair and hair care that cites studies?

Edit: finished reading the comments, it seems like I must give up hope! The best hair option is syndets? I do not want to accept that! 
What about small amounts of coconut oil on it's own? It has a cleaning/dying effect while also being a moisturizer, so would it work on hair if applied minimally under hot water? What about borax to lower ph? I know there is some controversy as to whether it is safe or not, but from some of my reading it is only dangerous if digested in high quantities or if it gets in your eyes... Like many other things...


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## shunt2011 (Aug 29, 2016)

Any high PH soap will eventually cause damage to hair. Many of us here have tried and paid for it. I have customers ask all the time and. I explain why I won't / don't make them.  You can't drop the ph of solid or liquor soap enough. Then it will no longer be soap and will separate.  Check out swiftcraftymonkey site and she has a lot of information on synthetic shampoo. Hi and welcome!!


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## Susie (Aug 29, 2016)

The simple answer is that if you want to make something that is guaranteed safe for the hair of all of your family and friends, you need to use the same stuff they can buy in the store...and pay about five times the price they pay for it.


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## reflection (Aug 29, 2016)

faerytech said:


> Edit: finished reading the comments, it seems like I must give up hope! The best hair option is syndets? I do not want to accept that!
> What about small amounts of coconut oil on it's own? It has a cleaning/dying effect while also being a moisturizer, so would it work on hair if applied minimally under hot water? What about borax to lower ph? I know there is some controversy as to whether it is safe or not, but from some of my reading it is only dangerous if digested in high quantities or if it gets in your eyes... Like many other things...


faery, i'm right there with you. here is one thing i found although it's not the most convenient. coconut milk & aloe freezer cubes i haven't tried it yet but am planning to.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 30, 2016)

Whether you want to accept it or not - so far there is no better option for the majority of people over the long term than syndet shampoos. There will be some exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions.


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