# Liquid Soap Shampoos



## liquidsoaplady (Feb 1, 2015)

I was just wondering due to the  high pH of natural liquid soaps if anyone has formulated a successful liquid soap shampoo? If so would you mind sharing how you achieved this? I know the high pH is not good for the hair and can damage it. I've made some shampoos, hard to rinse out, do 'clean' the hair and it ok after applying commercial conditioners. 
Thanks for sharing your experiences...........:!:

Lisa


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## DeeAnna (Feb 1, 2015)

Low pH cleansers are syndets -- synthetic detergents. It is not physically possible to make a functional lye soap, whether it's made with KOH or NaOH, that has a pH of 7 or below. 

That said, there are many people who make shampoo bars and shampoo liquids that are true soap and like them very well. The pH of these products is the naturally alkaline pH of lye soap, generally somewhere between 8 and 11. A fair number of people who do use these soap-based 'poos are following it with an acidic rinse of diluted vinegar (acetic acid) or citric acid to lay the cuticle of the hair back down.

See also http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30946
and http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=490385
and http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/search?q=shampoo


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## seven (Feb 3, 2015)

i make my liquid (soap) shampoo with the combo of beer and apple cider vinegar (acv). i quite like the end result. might not be totally the same as having a vinegar rinse, but the acv does help.


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## hmlove1218 (Feb 3, 2015)

seven said:


> i make my liquid (soap) shampoo with the combo of beer and apple cider vinegar (acv). i quite like the end result. might not be totally the same as having a vinegar rinse, but the acv does help.



If you don't mind me asking, do you add the beer and ACV to the initial soapmaking stage or the dilution stage?


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## seven (Feb 4, 2015)

hmlove1218 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, do you add the beer and ACV to the initial soapmaking stage or the dilution stage?



i made the mixture of beer, acv, and glycerin, and added this to my lye.. make sure the beer is free from alcohol first...


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## kchaystack (Feb 4, 2015)

Mixing vinegar and  lye is only going to neutralize them both. It will create a salt and water.  So you are going to have a lye discount with your oil.


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## seven (Feb 4, 2015)

kchaystack said:


> Mixing vinegar and  lye is only going to neutralize them both. It will create a salt and water.  So you are going to have a lye discount with your oil.



yes i am aware of that. adjusting the lye is necessary. a rough guide for KOH, 30 gr of vinegar will neutralize 1.4 gr of KOH (thanks DeeAnna)


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## kchaystack (Feb 4, 2015)

seven said:


> yes i am aware of that. adjusting the lye is necessary. a rough guide for KOH, 30 gr of vinegar will neutralize 1.4 gr of KOH (thanks DeeAnna)



OK, so now I am really confused.  Maybe I misunderstand the process, which is very likely, since I just started.  

If this is added to your lye solution before you add it to your oils, why are you not just using a weaker KOH solution? 

Sorry to be dense, I just am trying to understand the method.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 4, 2015)

You add enough extra KOH to react with the vinegar and leave enough KOH to make the soap properly. The vinegar reacts with the KOH to make a salt -- potassium acetate.

At a 5% acetic solution, 30 g of commercial vinegar will neutralize 1 g of NaOH or 1.4 g of KOH

Another thread on this topic: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=41504


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## Susie (Feb 4, 2015)

kchaystack said:


> OK, so now I am really confused.  Maybe I misunderstand the process, which is very likely, since I just started.
> 
> If this is added to your lye solution before you add it to your oils, why are you not just using a weaker KOH solution?
> 
> Sorry to be dense, I just am trying to understand the method.



I think what you are not understanding is the _reason_ they want to add vinegar/citric acid to the shampoo.  I think the #1 reason is that they have hard water, and need the vinegar as an agent to bind with some of those minerals that leads to gunky buildup on hair.  

They are not adding vinegar or citric acid strictly to lower the pH, or to raise the superfat.  If you lower the pH too much, you will "break" the soap.  It will separate into fatty acids floating on a watery layer.  And will have to have more alkaline added to bring it back together.


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## kchaystack (Feb 4, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> You add enough extra KOH to react with the vinegar and leave enough KOH to make the soap properly. The vinegar reacts with the KOH to make a salt -- potassium acetate.
> 
> At a 5% acetic solution, 30 g of commercial vinegar will neutralize 1 g of NaOH or 1.4 g of KOH
> 
> Another thread on this topic: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=41504



Thanks Deeanna.  So does the potassium acetate have some beneficial effect on the product?  From everything else I have read this really is not going to lower the pH of the soap, so I can't understand why you would still need to use a slightly acidic rinse to counter act the alkali effect on the scalp?  

I guess I just don't see why you don't just use less KOH or NaOH, unless you want the K acetate for some reason.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 4, 2015)

Precisely what Susie said. You WANT the potassium acetate as a specific additive. You do NOT want more superfat. Fats or fatty acids above about 3% in a LS will just separate out, so there's no point to that. 

If you had potassium acetate itself, you could just add that and then you would not have to tweak the lye amount, but most people don't have potassium acetate on hand. They do have vinegar (acetic acid), so they do some simple kitchen chemistry instead.

The point of a separate acidic rinse after shampooing is to lay the cuticle of the hair back down so the hair feels smoother. The hair shaft becomes rough when exposed to alkaline conditions (real soap) and the acid counteracts this tendency after the soap is rinsed out. This two-step chemical process (alkaline soap followed by acidic rinse) is different than adding vinegar directly to the soap when it's made (alkaline soap + salt together in the same product). Although I concede that many people think it's the same thing ... but it's not.


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## kchaystack (Feb 4, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Precisely what Susie said. You WANT the potassium acetate as a specific additive. You do NOT want more superfat. Fats or fatty acids above about 3% in a LS will just separate out, so there's no point to that.
> 
> If you had potassium acetate itself, you could just add that and then you would not have to tweak the lye amount, but most people don't have potassium acetate on hand. They do have vinegar (acetic acid), so they do some simple kitchen chemistry instead.
> 
> The point of a separate acidic rinse after shampooing is to lay the cuticle of the hair back down so the hair feels smoother. The hair shaft becomes rough when exposed to alkaline conditions (real soap) and the acid counteracts this tendency after the soap is rinsed out. This two-step chemical process (alkaline soap followed by acidic rinse) is different than adding vinegar directly to the soap when it's made (alkaline soap + salt together in the same product). Although I concede that many people think it's the same thing ... but it's not.




That makes sense, thanks Susie and DeeAnna.


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## seven (Feb 4, 2015)

as i said earlier, having a separate vinegar rinse is a different thing, but i swear (maybe it's the combo of beer and acv? who knows ) having them in my shampoo makes my hair more manageable compared to my usual cp shampoo bar (again YMMV, as each person's hair and scalp is different). with the shampoo bar, a vinegar rinse is a must for me, otherwise my hair is hard to comb. with the beer and acv liquid shampoo, it is def better


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## DeeAnna (Feb 4, 2015)

There ya go! Thanks for the info, Seven!


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## kchaystack (Feb 4, 2015)

seven said:


> as i said earlier, having a separate vinegar rinse is a different thing, but i swear (maybe it's the combo of beer and acv? who knows ) having them in my shampoo makes my hair more manageable compared to my usual cp shampoo bar (again YMMV, as each person's hair and scalp is different). with the shampoo bar, a vinegar rinse is a must for me, otherwise my hair is hard to comb. with the beer and acv liquid shampoo, it is def better



Yeah I understand now.  I don't really have to worry about manageable hair, as I keep mine clipped very short, so I rarely have to use more than my fingers to comb through it!


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## Susie (Feb 4, 2015)

Must be nice...mine is down to my waist and naturally curly.  But, it is in better shape now than when I kept it in a pixie cut and had to wash and style it every day.


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## dosco (Feb 12, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Precisely what Susie said. You WANT the potassium acetate as a specific additive. You do NOT want more superfat. Fats or fatty acids above about 3% in a LS will just separate out, so there's no point to that.
> 
> If you had potassium acetate itself, you could just add that and then you would not have to tweak the lye amount, but most people don't have potassium acetate on hand. They do have vinegar (acetic acid), so they do some simple kitchen chemistry instead.
> 
> The point of a separate acidic rinse after shampooing is to lay the cuticle of the hair back down so the hair feels smoother. The hair shaft becomes rough when exposed to alkaline conditions (real soap) and the acid counteracts this tendency after the soap is rinsed out. This two-step chemical process (alkaline soap followed by acidic rinse) is different than adding vinegar directly to the soap when it's made (alkaline soap + salt together in the same product). Although I concede that many people think it's the same thing ... but it's not.



I get all this - thanks for the explanation.

Next question: can one skip the acetic acid rinse if they're going to use a conditioner?

(I suppose to some extent this depends on if one is using a conditioner based on BTMS-25 (or -50) or cetearyl alcohol)

-Dave


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## Obsidian (Feb 12, 2015)

I don't often use conditioner but when I do, I follow it with a acid rinse.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 12, 2015)

"...can one skip the acetic acid rinse if they're going to use a conditioner?

Not necessarily. Conditioner may or may not be acidic enough to smooth the hair cuticle, depending on hair type, damage, length, etc. Very much a personal choice.

"...(I suppose to some extent this depends on if one is using a conditioner based on BTMS-25 (or -50) or cetearyl alcohol)..."

Why do you think this is so? I'm curious about your thinking on this point.


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## dosco (Feb 12, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> "...(I suppose to some extent this depends on if one is using a conditioner based on BTMS-25 (or -50) or cetearyl alcohol)..."
> 
> Why do you think this is so? I'm curious about your thinking on this point.



Cetearyl alcohol "is a thickener that brings slip and glide to our products."

BTMS is a cationic emulsifier ... according to Susan (of swiftcraftymonkey) "conditioner is a cationic product" and she goes on to say no cationic stuff = not a hair conditioner.

I'm sure my statement is more a reflection of my ignorance and confusion while I ascend the learning curve of hair conditioner formulation.

As an aside I purchased some "hair conditioner concentrate" which is cetearyl alcohol + stearalkonium chloride. I posted my question/statement before  searching swiftcraftymonkey using "stearalkonium chloride" as the search term - stearalkonium chloride is the cationic quaternary compound that makes conditioner what it is supposed to be. I was under the incorrect assumption the primary stuff in my baggie of concentrate was the alcohol (which it is not).

-Dave


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2015)

Okay, I think I see your point now. Conditioning the hair with adsorbent ingredients such as BTMS and/or coating the hair with silicones, a film of oils, etc. is not the same as adjusting the pH of the hair. Yes, I agree a cationic ingredient like BTMS has a positive charge, but BTMS can't do the same chemistry job as H+ (the positively charged hydrogen ions created by acids).

You could make a conditioner that has a lower pH by including a bit of citric acid in the recipe to replace a separate vinegar or citric acid rinse. That is what I have been doing when I've made my last couple of batches of conditioner. My homemade conditioner has always included conditioning emulsifier (generic form of BTMS 25) but my soap-shampooed hair did not respond as well with the original no-citric-acid recipe than it did after I added citric acid to the conditioner recipe. A little dab of citric is plenty -- you don't need much.

I need to add -- Even though I do have a chemistry background and have done some kitchen chemistry experiments with my lotions and potions, I'm definitely not a cosmetic chemist and not the last word on this stuff!


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