# Soap Business - Manufacturing vs Artisan / Craft



## goteeguy (Nov 17, 2013)

Hi everyone, 

I live in Kitchener, Ontario, Canada.  I checked with my local by-law office and they stated that I cannot start a soap business in my home because they consider it to be manufacturing.  I challenged them on this and they told me _"making soap is manufacturing, making a quilt is a craft"_.  Well, after some further investigation, I found a *Government of Canada* website that states quite the opposite: 

http://www.cbo-eco.ca/en/index.cfm/...art-an-artisan-and-craft-business-in-ontario/

They state in the very first paragraph, on the very first page that: 

_"The artisanal and craft industries are comprised of many disciplines, and can include a number of professions, from sculptors or quilters, to jewellery-maker or a mechanic who custom-designs vehicles. Artisanal businesses and craft businesses produce a wide variety of products ranging from unique handmade artistic items to mass-produced collectibles or specialty items. In fact, any business creating and selling products made with a personal touch" could be defined as an artisanal or craft business."_

How does this statement NOT include small batch, handmade soaps???  I'm just curious to hear how other people (in Ontario / Canada specifically) managed to start their soap businesses in their homes.  Are you classified as a manufacturing business or as an artisan / craft business? 

Thanks! 
Ken


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## Relle (Nov 17, 2013)

Lindy, should be able to answer this question for you.


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## Stinkydancer (Nov 17, 2013)

Interesting- I will be watching this thread. I'm curious about it.


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## JessieD (Nov 17, 2013)

That's a very good question! Maybe bring some soap with you. They may have a hard time saying it doesn't fit those guidelines...Lol. 

Also being in Canada, I'm very curious to see where this goes....


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## Lindy (Nov 20, 2013)

In Canada each city/town/regional district can make their own rules.  They may be concerned about the lye and I think if it were me I would approach them for a in person meeting to discuss this.  Come prepared with information on your process as well as how many bars you expect to produce in a month.

We are actually manufacturing, however, we are also an artisanal craft.  Can I ask what city/town you are in?  What are they wanting you to do for space?  Have they said?  Perhaps you could create a space they would consider a shop....

ETA - I am listed as manufacturing as my business and licensed as a home business making (manufacturing) soaps, lotions and other personal care products.


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## goteeguy (Dec 1, 2013)

Update:  It appears I am unable to works around the by-laws here.  No matter what I do / say, I am not legally allowed to manufacture soap in my home for business purposes.  The dream is dead... :cry:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 2, 2013)

Do you have an out-building or anything?


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## goteeguy (Dec 2, 2013)

Unfortunately, not... although I'm very tempted to build one!  LOL!


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## neeners (Dec 2, 2013)

there's a soaper in Waterloo.  Hopefully they can chime in to help you with your question.


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## goteeguy (Dec 3, 2013)

I'd really appreciate if they could... I did already try contacting 1 soaper in Waterloo, but the response was eerily quiet.  :shifty:


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## My Mountain Soaps (Dec 3, 2013)

goteeguy said:


> Update:  It appears I am unable to works around the by-laws here.  No matter what I do / say, I am not legally allowed to manufacture soap in my home for business purposes.  The dream is dead... :cry:



Dont give up! God is bigger than your problems!  keep pushing!


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## Khanjari (Dec 3, 2013)

How about telling them, u have a sensitive skin and need to make soaps for personal use?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 4, 2013)

Khanjari said:


> How about telling them, u have a sensitive skin and need to make soaps for personal use?


 
That's not the problem, that's the current situation.

But when selling them (what the OP wants to do) then it enters the realms of manufacturing and cannot be done at home - at the moment, hopefully we get some advice on the situation from another local


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## goteeguy (Dec 4, 2013)

Currently, the only way around the by-laws would be to either:

a) tell them I will be selling soaps, and omit the part about actually making them in my home (i.e., lie)

or

b)  find a location where I can make soap off-site

Unfortunately, option b) is too expensive for my budget, and the whole point of jumping through all these hoops it to go "legit".  Having to lie in order to do it seems contrary to the goal.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 4, 2013)

A rather bad situation, for certain.

What do they class as a home, out of interest?  They should have that rather well defined.  Also, what classes as making soap?  Have they explained why you can't do it from home?


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## goteeguy (Dec 4, 2013)

Unfortunately, the by-law office was not clear on definitions.  They were very clear, however, in stating that making soap was manufacturing and that manufacturing was not permitted in a residence. :evil:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 4, 2013)

A shed would not be a residence.  Shouldn't be too expensive to get one, if you have space


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## goteeguy (Dec 9, 2013)

*Update*

So... just a little update...

I've been able to locate three other soapers in my city (all of whom sell their soaps professionally).  After contacting each of them via email, only one responded - basically stating that registration and licensing were optional and that I really didn't need to do it to sell soap.    Uhhh... WRONG!!!  Obviously, she's got no idea what she's talking about, so I'll assume her business is not legit.  My fear now is that the two unresponsive people have also not setup their business properly, so will be little help to me.

Oh well.  at least it's good to know I'm not the only one in this city being screwed over by crappy by-laws.  :evil:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 9, 2013)

That is not good news at all!

Out of interest, why is the registration required?  Is it for setting up as a business?  If so, can you go as a sole trader to start with, no business numbers etc?  A lot of countries have options for that, as long as you pay your taxes properly.  Then, when people are buying your products like crazy, you can lease a small place to do it.

Or am I dreaming for you?


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## goteeguy (Dec 10, 2013)

Registering the business with the province isn't a problem... it's dealing with the city in order to get a vendor's permit and business license that's the issue.  Without a business license and vendor's permit, I can't "legally" sell my soaps within city limits.  They also stated I need to complete a police clearance, and that my home has to pass a fire inspection by the local authorities.  It just gets dumber and dumber...


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## kryse13 (Dec 10, 2013)

WOW! I Would go with build a shed but then it would have to be up to code and inspected and that would get crazy expencive.  hmmm lease a closet, or better yet bring your soap making stuff to THEIR building and claim it is now your manufacturing shop. LOL "That isn't cupcakes, thats soap!" *bubbles coming out of their mouths as they chew* he he

I'm really sorry they are being so silly


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 10, 2013)

Thinking out loud, but if the issue is that you need to do this because you are looking to sell AND manufacture within the city limits, what happens if you are not only making it in the city but selling it exclusively outside of the city?

Then what happens if you are not making it in the city, but just selling it in the city?

So you could in theory make it inside the city, sell it to a shell company outside the city, then from this shell company sell it inside the city.  So the selling inside the city is not done by the manufacturer.

Complicated, but might be an option.


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## Derpina Bubbles (Dec 10, 2013)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Thinking out loud, but if the issue is that you need to do this because you are looking to sell AND manufacture within the city limits, what happens if you are not only making it in the city but selling it exclusively outside of the city?
> 
> Then what happens if you are not making it in the city, but just selling it in the city?
> 
> ...



I read this and my head exploded. Literally, exploded. I love it. No chance you're secretly plotting to take over the world and soap making is just a front?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 10, 2013)

I did an aptitude test years ago and one suggested career path was law 

I can understand why they have the regulations, but when it is so over the top like this case, then I enjoy trying to find totally legal ways to follow the rules to the letter but still has a good result.

For example, what part of soap making is manufacturing?  I think logic would lead us to the actual combining oils and lye together - melting oil and mixing lye is not manufacturing.  Putting batter in to a mold and cooling it is not manufacturing.  Packaging soap is not manufacturing.  You could argue that it is all part of the process as a whole, but would they let you do all of it except packaging?  No, it's still manufacturing.  Could you take liquid oils and a lye solution and mix it?  No, because it's the mixing that is the manufacturing part.  You can melt oils and mix chemicals in to a solution - people do it every single day.  But combining them together is making soap.

So therefore, if you took your melted oils, lye solution and pot outside of the house and combined it to make soap, you are not manufacturing in the house.


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## neeners (Dec 10, 2013)

^^ I agree with you.  and, you can also argue that baking a batch of cookies is also considered manufacturing.  so if you're going to do a bake sale at work or school, would you then have to go outside of city limits to make the items then bring them in the sell it?  where's the line?  some regulations are just insane (this one being one).


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## CaraCara (Dec 10, 2013)

goteeguy said:


> Registering the business with the province isn't a problem... it's dealing with the city in order to get a vendor's permit and business license that's the issue. Without a business license and vendor's permit, I can't "legally" sell my soaps within city limits. They also stated I need to complete a police clearance, and that my home has to pass a fire inspection by the local authorities. It just gets dumber and dumber...


 Holy cripes! I guess I should look into local by-laws here to see what the bright sparks may or may not have stacked against me.  That's just ridiculous what you have to contend with.


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## neeners (Dec 10, 2013)

can you make soap in your house and sell it outside city limits?  like at St. Jacob's market or another market outside of the Waterloo area?


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## goteeguy (Dec 10, 2013)

neeners said:


> can you make soap in your house and sell it outside city limits?  like at St. Jacob's market or another market outside of the Waterloo area?



I don't think so... but I never really asked.  I was just told that if I planned to sell from my home (or any other address) for most of the year, I would need a permanent vendor's permit which costs $351 for 2013.  If selling anywhere else, I would need an additional temporary vendor's permit which costs $325 for 3 days, and is site specific.  I'm not sure if I would need additional permits from Waterloo as well, if I plan on selling there... but as this continues to spiral downwards, nothing would surprise me.

It just boggles my mind how doing small business (of any kind) has become so dang difficult.  Why do I need a police clearance to work in my own home with no employees and no customers coming to my door???  Why do I need to pass a fire inspection as well???  Both items would be simple enough to complete, but I feel they are unnecessary and only serve to block small businesses from starting up.  :evil:

At any rate, the point is probably moot as I am not even able to make the soap to begin with.  It's no wonder the other soapers where I live are working below the radar and not responding to my emails (likely for fear of being outed).  It seems I may be forced to do the same...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 10, 2013)

Don't give in yet, chap - stiff upper lip and all that.

Do you have small business advice centres in your area?  Maybe even invest a few coins in a legal advice specialising in this topic in your area.  I bet you're not the first person to have this issue and I bet other people are managing to do it legally and without too much pain


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## goteeguy (Dec 10, 2013)

You must have been reading my mind... I just looked up the contact information for the Small Business Centre in this region... I'm going to see if I can meet with one of their advisors (1hr free consultation) to see if they can shed some light on this situation.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 10, 2013)

Brilliant!  Let us know how it goes


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## Khanjari (Dec 12, 2013)

goteeguy said:


> You must have been reading my mind... I just looked up the contact information for the Small Business Centre in this region... I'm going to see if I can meet with one of their advisors (1hr free consultation) to see if they can shed some light on this situation.




Good luck! Hope to get some good news! Keep us posted!


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