# Now don't yell...



## John Harris (Jan 22, 2022)

but this may be a dumb question...

I have a bottle of FO called White Vanilla.  No other explanations.  Do you think the name indicates a non-discoloring vanilla?

I know I could do a test batch, but I really HATE doing test batches.  (I also hate dark brown soap bars.)

How are you inclined to think on the matter?


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## dibbles (Jan 22, 2022)

I think it is probably non-discoloring, at least to a very dark brown. It may slightly discolor, and over time the soap color may darken as well. That said, I'd advise a test batch, especially if the FO is old. Whatever was added may not still be very effective.


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## TheGecko (Jan 22, 2022)

If you don't like dark brown soaps, then it's best to do a test batch.

I Googled "White Vanilla"...got one hit, a place called Sweet Cakes Soaps (supplier).  Claims it doesn't discolor at all, but the scent is "colder, less buttery-smelling".


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## ResolvableOwl (Jan 22, 2022)

Vanillin discolours in alkaline solution … you can just dump a few drops of the FO into a small beaker with a weak lye solution, and let it stand overnight. If it got yellow or brown, you have a definite “no”, if it stays colourless, however, it's better to rely on a test under soap conditions.

You can make a control test with a bit of vanillin sugar.


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## John Harris (Jan 22, 2022)

I guess there's no way around it.  A test batch is in the future.  That it might be non-discoloring seems to be too good to be true - and we all know what that means.  I'll let you know how it goes.


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## AliOop (Jan 22, 2022)

Or ....make your nice big batch, and pour off some batter for a swirl. 

Don't add any colorant or vanilla stabilizer to the swirl batter, but do add vanilla stabilizer to the remaining base soap. 

Then swirl the non-VS-treated batter into the VS-treated base. 

Watch it during cure to see what happens. That way, your soap won't be all brown, and you get to find out whether the FO discolors.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 22, 2022)

-or- hold off and test it by adding the vanilla FO to a small portion of batter from a batch that will use a different FO.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jan 23, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Or ....make your nice big batch, and pour off some batter for a swirl.
> 
> Don't add any colorant or vanilla stabilizer to the swirl batter, but do add vanilla stabilizer to the remaining base soap.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I did with a vanilla FO that I explicitly bough because it was said to be discolouring … even overdosed it … still not the faintest trace of brown after 11 days & emergency CPOP …


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## glendam (Jan 23, 2022)

What is the supplier? Where did you get the bottle from? Their website should have that information, and if not, they should be able to provide at least the safety sheet that might give you clues (msds).


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 24, 2022)

John Harris said:


> How are you inclined to think on the matter?


Embrace the brown.


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## John Harris (Jan 25, 2022)

glendam said:


> What is the supplier? Where did you get the bottle from? Their website should have that information, and if not, they should be able to provide at least the safety sheet that might give you clues (msds).


I am using some EOs/FOs I bought 20 years ago!  (I used to be an avid soapmaker years ago, but then life changed and soapmaking fell by the wayside for quite a few years.)  Anyway, so far, the EOs/FOs seem to be performing just fine without exception.  I have 40 fluid ounces of this White Vanilla stuff.  It was sold by "Evonne Woycitzky  The Soapmaker".  She doesn't seem to be in business anymore.


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## glendam (Jan 25, 2022)

John Harris said:


> I am using some EOs/FOs I bought 20 years ago!  (I used to be an avid soapmaker years ago, but then life changed and soapmaking fell by the wayside for quite a few years.)  Anyway, so far, the EOs/FOs seem to be performing just fine without exception.  I have 40 fluid ounces of this White Vanilla stuff.  It was sold by "Evonne Woycitzky  The Soapmaker".  She doesn't seem to be in business anymore.


Got it.  You could also try a few drops in any melt and pour you may have around, if it does have vanilla, it will also discolor that.  That's great to know the FO's are performing well, after so many years!


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## TheGecko (Jan 25, 2022)

John Harris said:


> I am using some EOs/FOs I bought 20 years ago!  (I used to be an avid soapmaker years ago, but then life changed and soapmaking fell by the wayside for quite a few years.)  Anyway, so far, the EOs/FOs seem to be performing just fine without exception.  I have 40 fluid ounces of this White Vanilla stuff.  It was sold by "Evonne Woycitzky  The Soapmaker".  She doesn't seem to be in business anymore.



So you do a test batch.  Now I know that you aren't into doing test batches...I wasn't either until I had to toss a 50 oz batch, a bowl and almost a stick blender.  I had a FO that BADLY accelerated.  It went from fluid to concrete in like 2 seconds.  I tried chipping the soap out of the bowl with a screwdriver and ruined the bowl.  Fortunately, the shaft detaches and I was able to boil for about a half hour to soften the soap in the bell...took me over an hour to get it clean.  

Unless the test turns out badly, the worst thing is I have four bars of 'house' soap.

Now I'm okay with brown soap for the most part...it depends on how 'brown' it is, and the scent.  Chocolate Espresso discolors to a med brown, I add cocoa and brown oxide to make it a bit darker and then I top with 'whip cream'.  I have a couple of other med browns that I take a small portion, add some TD and do a Drop/Chopstick Swirl and they sell too.  Then there is Autumn Harvest from Elements; I fell in love with the 1oz bottle and went ahead and bought a 16oz bottle before testing.  I was envisioning a multi-color of autumn colors...orange, green, gold and red.  I got brown...DARK BROWN.  REALLY DARK BROWN.  What the heck am I going to do with this?!?  @Todd Ziegler's VCS...I did the simple version, added an equal amount and...no brown, not even a light tan...it's an off-white.  I don't have a picture of the original soap I made to show you just how brown it was, but THIS is using the VCS.

And since I'm going to be doing a test of Red Palm Oil this evening, I think I'll do a test with AH using the VCS at 25/50/75%.


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## John Harris (Jan 28, 2022)

My First Test Batch.   I made a four bar test of my White Vanilla FO this afternoon.  I was really impressed with how meager it appeared!  It smells great though!  A couple of pics:


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## AliOop (Jan 28, 2022)

John Harris said:


> My First First Batch.   I made a four bar test of my White Vanilla FO this afternoon.  I was really impressed with how meager it appeared!  It smells great though!  A couple of pics:


That's the smallest batch of soap we've ever seen from you. I didn't even imagine you had such a tiny mold in your possession.

It does look lovely!


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## ResolvableOwl (Jan 28, 2022)

AliOop said:


> I didn't even imagine you had such a tiny mold in your possession.


That's the whole point – he doesn't. That doesn't keep him from making such small batches, though. 
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.


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## math ace (Jan 29, 2022)

I've started doing my tests samples this way...a 3 ounce bar (uncolored) with a Mica swirl on top.  The Mica swirl allows me to identify each fragrance when I unmolded the soap.  This method is good for testing fragrance strength, fragrance stick, discoloration, and ricing.  It is not the best for acceleration.  Doing it this way, only one small test bar, I'll get an idea about acceleration, but the reality is usually much worse than what I see in the test bar.... However, I still get a warning to keep it simple when I move to using the fragrance in a regular batch.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 29, 2022)

math ace said:


> I've started doing my tests samples this way


I do something similar. I use a 6 cavity (round) mold to test 6 at a time.

*TESTING EOs/FOs AND COLORANTS IN CP*


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## Kiti Williams (Jan 29, 2022)

math ace said:


> I've started doing my tests samples this way...a 3 ounce bar (uncolored) with a Mica swirl on top.  The Mica swirl allows me to identify each fragrance when I unmolded the soap.  This method is good for testing fragrance strength, fragrance stick, discoloration, and ricing.  It is not the best for acceleration.  Doing it this way, only one small test bar, I'll get an idea about acceleration, but the reality is usually much worse than what I see in the test bar.... However, I still get a warning to keep it simple when I move to using the fragrance in a regular batch.



I really like this idea!  Thank you so much for the hint!


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## John Harris (Feb 1, 2022)

So much for "White" Vanilla...

This is about 5 days from making it.  As you can see, it is quite BROWN, with a heavy coat of soda ash.  The scent is great though.  Maybe if I called it "Vanilla Bean" it would be ok.  I wonder why the EO/FO seller would call it WHITE Vanilla.  She could have just as well called it GREEN Vanilla and it would make as much sense.  If she was still in business, I would ask her what her intention was.


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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 1, 2022)

Mmmh, tiramisù! 



John Harris said:


> If she was still in business, I would ask her what her intention was.


Have you tried to contact her? Just because she isn't in business any more doesn't mean the E-mail address doesn't work any more. Maybe she is flattered to learn that, after so many years, her products still have a fan base.


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## cmzaha (Feb 1, 2022)

I do not know if BB still makes it but they did have a non-discoloring Vanilla. I really never liked it, but it was not bad smelling, just not the type of vanilla I like which is Vanilla Bean but it does not discolor and it did sell well for me. Sorry, I do not remember the name of it.  I had to embrace the brown since most of my best selling fo's were discoloring ones.


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## TheGecko (Feb 1, 2022)

John Harris said:


> I wonder why the EO/FO seller would call it WHITE Vanilla.



Scent profile.  

Two FOs sitting on my desk are Honeysuckle and Eucalyptus Mint...doesn't mean my soap will turn yellow or green...it's just the scent.


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## Here To Learn (Feb 1, 2022)

John Harris said:


> So much for "White" Vanilla...
> 
> This is about 5 days from making it.  As you can see, it is quite BROWN, with a heavy coat of soda ash.  The scent is great though.  Maybe if I called it "Vanilla Bean" it would be ok.  I wonder why the EO/FO seller would call it WHITE Vanilla.  She could have just as well called it GREEN Vanilla and it would make as much sense.  If she was still in business, I would ask her what her intention was.


Can we talk about your wonderful mold? It’s great! Did you make it or did you buy it?


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## dibbles (Feb 1, 2022)

The fragrance oil is 20 years old IIRC. While it still smells great, that doesn’t mean the component used to prevent discoloring is still still stable, or effective, or whatever the correct word here is. My favorite vanilla turns nearly black, so what you have might be significantly weakened, but still working to some extent.


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## John Harris (Feb 1, 2022)

Here To Learn said:


> Can we talk about your wonderful mold? It’s great! Did you make it or did you buy it?


Here are a few pics of the mold and accessories.  A carpenter friend made it for me. And a sheet metal worker friend of mine made the 4 foot long soap knife.







This is a mitre box saw I use as a divider.  I can put it at any point in the box to make less than the full 40 bars capacity.  It just has to be a multiple of four. (i.e. 4, 8, 12, 16, etc.)




with the cover on



With the heat cover on



And this is the (very sharp) stainless steel knife.



I have another soap box about twice as big as this one.  That was for back in the days when I REALLY made soap. (But it was kinda boring stuff.  I have learned  and do so much more since joining this group!)


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## lucycat (Feb 2, 2022)

If that is as dark as it gets I would consider it a "white" vanilla since most of the time I have dark brown soaps with vanilla.

If the fragrance is old then maybe it has morphed and now the discoloration is worse.  I used to have a lilac that would discolor when the fragrance was a couple of years old.


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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 2, 2022)

John Harris said:


> So much for "White" Vanilla...
> 
> This is about 5 days from making it.  As you can see, it is quite BROWN, with a heavy coat of soda ash.  The scent is great though.  Maybe if I called it "Vanilla Bean" it would be ok.  I wonder why the EO/FO seller would call it WHITE Vanilla.  She could have just as well called it GREEN Vanilla and it would make as much sense.  If she was still in business, I would ask her what her intention was.


So, what EXACTLY are we seeing here? How old are the free and the cut surfaces? The top of the bars has been the act (free) surface of the bar in the mould? Is the soda ash the cocoa-brown stuff on the top, and/or the cappuccino-coloured sides? Do you have an explanation for the ITP-swirl-ish patterns in the bulk?

And does it stay that way, or is the colour morph still going on?


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## Purple heather natural sk (Feb 2, 2022)

John Harris said:


> So much for "White" Vanilla...
> 
> This is about 5 days from making it.  As you can see, it is quite BROWN, with a heavy coat of soda ash.  The scent is great though.  Maybe if I called it "Vanilla Bean" it would be ok.  I wonder why the EO/FO seller would call it WHITE Vanilla.  She could have just as well called it GREEN Vanilla and it would make as much sense.  If she was still in business, I would ask her what her intention was.


I like the name Vanille Bean


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## John Harris (Feb 8, 2022)

ResolvableOwl said:


> So, what EXACTLY are we seeing here? How old are the free and the cut surfaces? The top of the bars has been the act (free) surface of the bar in the mould? Is the soda ash the cocoa-brown stuff on the top, and/or the cappuccino-coloured sides? Do you have an explanation for the ITP-swirl-ish patterns in the bulk?
> 
> And does it stay that way, or is the colour morph still going on?






The bars are 11 days old now and the brown (seen on the tops) is darker than the last time I photographed them.  The faces of the bars have what I think is soda ash (cappuccino-coloured). It isn't a dry, white powder like soda ash usually is.  This is more of a thick, moist powder, if that makes any sense. 
The variations in color on the faces are partly due to manipulations I have subjected them to and partly due to ... heaven knows.  These bars seem to have a mind of their own.
The scent is divine, by the way!


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## ResolvableOwl (Feb 8, 2022)

John Harris said:


> The faces of the bars have what I think is soda ash (cappuccino-coloured).


So, the bars would turn uniformly dark brown when used?


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## John Harris (Feb 8, 2022)

Yes


ResolvableOwl said:


> So, the bars would turn uniformly dark brown when used?


Yes, the cappuccino-coloured powder will wash off and the whole bar will be dark brown.


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