# Batch #3 in my Soapin Adventure: MdC shave soap clone



## Johnez (May 14, 2021)

Hey gang, I'm about to jump into shaving soap for my third batch. I've gone through the songwind thread, and in my research came across another version of the clone online here:









						Super Easy 5-Minute DIY Shaving Soap: Martin de Candre Italian Soft Shave Soap
					

Shaving soaps have developed their own popular niche market as well-groomed facial hair and men's skin care have become more acceptable and mainstream. Men are now able to find products that meet their needs with ingredients and scents designed for specifically for men that also provide...




					www.ultimatehpsoap.com
				




I like this version as it lays out the options later on to improve the recipe.  Glad to see the citric acid and sodium lactate additions clearly and simply accounted for.  I'm curious as to how the olive oil addition affects the shave being I've heard mostly negative things from the addition. 

Anyway, I've all the ingredients and am going to give this a shot. Should be fun as it's quick. Will be halving the batch, hopefully for two small portions-one to use ASAP, and one to set aside to cure and serve as a performance baseline for future improvements later. Next week or two I'll try with sodium lactate and citric acid.

Here's my soap calc recipe. I've omitted the SF and split the 55% stearic acid portion into 27.5% stearic acid and 27.5% palmatic acid due to the composition of my stearic acid that @ResolvableOwl somehow knew to ask about. A heads up to anyone purchasing stearic acid-check your SAP values and whatever documents that are attached. The soap calc tool assumes 99% stearic acid when you actually might have a 50/50 SA/PA mix (like I have!)

Based on my soapcalc numbers I got quite a bit of room to play with being the bubbly number is quite high, as is the S+P acid number. Besides the citric acid and sodium lactate adds next time, I'm thinking of carving 10% for castor oil in a future modification. I'm not sure what makes sense to add into this type of recipe, so if anyone's got some input I'm all ears. Ok, off to making this batch!

Aaaaaand it's done. Even cleaned up already. Screwed up with my scale in adding the salt. Didn't register the weight and realized after dumping probably too much in that my cup was probably over the jeweler scale limit. Dope! Guess I'm going to need some smaller plastic measuring containers to keep under the 100 gram capacity.

Anyways, scented with 3 g EO made up of:

Sweet Orange 
Tangerine 
Bergamot 
Grapefruit 

7:5:4:3 ratio

Played around with it till I got as close as I could to my dream scent heh. Went high on the EO percentage as I want to smell this at it's strongest to adjust later. I was perturbed that lime EO seemed to have not made it to my EO chest. Next time...

Anyway, it appears 150 grams oils is the sweet spot for filling exactly 2 containers that I have, getting accurate measurements is a bear tho. I may have to invest in a good scale that can read to the thousandths (in oz) accurately. The Ozeri everyone seems to have tends to jump in .04 increments which is highly annoying considering the tiny amounts I'm working with (especially when considering superfats or EOs!)


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## Tara_H (May 15, 2021)

Johnez said:


> smaller plastic measuring containers


Personally I've found that the little plastic tubs that the dip comes in when we order pizza are just the right size for weighing small amounts of things! I use them for EO/FO and micas.


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## Johnez (May 15, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> Personally I've found that the little plastic tubs that the dip comes in when we order pizza are just the right size for weighing small amounts of things! I use them for EO/FO and micas.



Great idea!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 15, 2021)

For measuring small amounts you'd be better switching to grams as a starter. I use a scale that does 0.1g measurements up to 7kg (that's 0.0035 oz and 15.5lb) and it wasn't expensive at all.


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## Johnez (May 15, 2021)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> For measuring small amounts you'd be better switching to grams as a starter. I use a scale that does 0.1g measurements up to 7kg (that's 0.0035 oz and 15.5lb) and it wasn't expensive at all.


Curious about this scale, happen to have a link?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 15, 2021)

Johnez said:


> Curious about this scale, happen to have a link?








						SHIOUCY 7.5KG/0.1G Digitale Küchenwaage Digitalwaage, Elektronische Waage, Briefwaage Feinwaage Zählwaage Präzisionswaage LCD Beleuchtetes Display Digitalwaage Ladenwaage Marktwaage : Amazon.de: Küche, Haushalt & Wohnen
					

Amazon.de: Küchen- und Haushaltsartikel online - SHIOUCY 7.5KG/0.1G Digitale Küchenwaage Digitalwaage, Elektronische Waage, Briefwaage Feinwaage Zählwaage Präzisionswaage LCD Beleuchtetes Display Digitalwaage Ladenwaage Marktwaage. SHIOUCY 7.5KG/0.1G Digitale Küchenwaage Digitalwaage...



					www.amazon.de
				




This looks like mine, but I think mine was a different supplier. They're all made in the same factory anyway most likely!

Edit - has power supply rather than battery which is always a bonus


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## earlene (May 15, 2021)

For US purchase, this one is close to that (5kg/0.1gm) for $23.99.  But for $100+ there are a few other options on Amazon.  I don't know what TEG's exchange rate is, but I'd say $24 is far more affordable than $100+ if you're in the market for a new scale.

But if you already have a good scale for the heavier items, a small jeweler's scale for the smaller items might be a better purchase.


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## Johnez (May 15, 2021)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> SHIOUCY 7.5KG/0.1G Digitale Küchenwaage Digitalwaage, Elektronische Waage, Briefwaage Feinwaage Zählwaage Präzisionswaage LCD Beleuchtetes Display Digitalwaage Ladenwaage Marktwaage : Amazon.de: Küche, Haushalt & Wohnen
> 
> 
> Amazon.de: Küchen- und Haushaltsartikel online - SHIOUCY 7.5KG/0.1G Digitale Küchenwaage Digitalwaage, Elektronische Waage, Briefwaage Feinwaage Zählwaage Präzisionswaage LCD Beleuchtetes Display Digitalwaage Ladenwaage Marktwaage. SHIOUCY 7.5KG/0.1G Digitale Küchenwaage Digitalwaage...
> ...



Thanks, power supply is definitely a plus. I found various versions of this type for about $100-150. Just a bit much for my purposes currently, but definitely something I've got my eye on when I've got some spare cash.

***

The shaving soap is a smashing success, I'll be using this stuff till I run out of the first pot, the second I'll save for comparison and curing purposes. I wish I had split this batch into 3 pots to compare at 6 weeks and then at 6 months. I might split the difference and test again at 3-4 months.

I whipped up my lather with a bit of trepidation knowing I screwed up with the salt, knowing this is my first shot...and well I'll be danged it came out pretty fricken good! Pillowed on my face with the cushion of many of my artisan soaps. I'll list the pros and cons as if I bought this tub:

*Great lather, builds quickly and with staying power.
*Excellent cushion, piles on thick and pillowy
*Smells fresh, but faint
*Could be slicker, residual slickness is not there for blade buffing (if necessary)
*Leaves face clean. Not dry, not moisturized,

Great all around and shave soap. I would consider this soap on par with the performance of Proraso, and expect to pay about that price. I would not consider it elite level (such as a Barrister & Mann Soft Heart/PP8 base or even Stirling's current offerings) however there is something magical about getting something that performs as expected at such a mere sliver of the price.

Next steps/changes:
-adding sodium lactate and citric acid
-adding EOs later in the process (at lower temp)
-finding a scale solution
-trying a simpler citrus blend (Tangerine/Lime)

Pics to illustrate how well the lather holds it's shape and how well it builds up.


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## Johnez (May 17, 2021)

I have to say I'm rather impressed with the strength and thickness of the lather, however the shave is just not as good as what I'm used to. Recent artisan offerings are just really really good right now, though with some less accessable ingredients I'm wondering if we can even match em these days. A second shave in the books, I'm considering putting it on the shelf to cure for a bit and maybe mellow out some. Time to give another batch a go at it.

So what's next? What to fix?
-slickness
-closeness
-skin feel during and after (irritation)

In my perusing of the forum I've come to some realizations in this recipe-coconut oil is perhaps a double edge sword. Great lather...but also stripping. I have a feeling the lack of general slickness and residual slickness is due to the stripping nature of CO. The cleansing number is quite high on the recipe and in playing with the numbers, lowering cleansing always lowers bubbles. I wonder how low I can get get the bubbles till lather is considered unacceptable for shave soap.

I am also considering rejiggering the stearic acid: palmatic acid ratio to be heavier on palmatic side. I've read threads attempting to do this for a better feeling bar, surely an experiment I can try with RBO. Moreover it appears I have 10 points to shave off in my S+P budget and still be at 50. Perhaps enough room for some experiments.

Speaking of RBO, it appears I may be neglecting linolenic, linoleic, oliec acids. Am considering adding RBO, Sunflower, OO, even Canola to see if I can get a nicer skin feel. The "slime" people complain about in Castile/Bastille soaps may well come in handy here in a shave soap. We shall see.

Despite the constant tinkering around, I've dispensed with the idea of playing with additives until I get a well performing base to build off of. It seems ultimately pointless to use an additive when it may not be needed or with a recipe that might be better worked on till optimal.

Soapin, what an art an science. Love it!


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## ResolvableOwl (May 17, 2021)

Great to see that it passes its field test! Of course, there are thosand things to try to improve it further, now that you know it works well . And I am in the comfortable situation that I can suggest everything, but you have to decide for/against each, and make it in the end .



Johnez said:


> Am considering adding RBO, Sunflower, OO, even Canola


I second this approach. Swapping out a few % of coconut by either won't make a big difference (it _will_, by adding gentle/conditioning qualities and lowering CO's drying/stripping qualities, but it doesn't matter too much which soft oil you choose for this).
From the (linoleic) numbers, RBO is slightly stronger than canola (but it also brings quite some palm*i*tic acid). HL sunflower is the “worst” of all (most linoleic for most silky-soft lather, but also inviting rancidity), while HO sunflower is very similar to olive oil.
Almond oil would be another popular option, anecdotally it'll bring its own bubbliness that soap calculators cannot account for. And what about castor?

Another modification direction for the recipe would be to gradually replace the free stearic/palmitic acids by *palm oil*. In your recipe, lower each free acid by 5% and the CO by 10%, and replace them by 20% palm oil – the P+S (“longevity number”) is nearly unchanged, but your “conditioning number” magically tripled 

The original recipe mentions *cetyl alcohol* (C12:0 alcohol). You could buy it in pure form at a cosmetics supplier, or alternatively add jojoba oil at a few % into your oil mix for a loosely similar effect. Lye will cleave it into soap and long-chain fatty alcohols (mainly C20:1 and C22:1).

Note that in the original recipe, the *5 minutes HP cook is a really short time*, and only possible since coconut oil saponifies exceptionally quickly.
If you add any “slow” oil, expect increased cooking times. An incomplete saponification will finish over a few days, so it'll be safe soap. But your goal should be to fully saponify on the stovetop (to protect post-cook additives), and for this be confident that you can tell when the saponification reaction is over.


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## Johnez (May 17, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Great to see that it passes its field test! Of course, there are thosand things to try to improve it further, now that you know it works well . And I am in the comfortable situation that I can suggest everything, but you have to decide for/against each, and make it in the end .



Thanks! This whole post, and posts in other threads have given me tons of information and roads to travel down myself.




ResolvableOwl said:


> I second this approach. Swapping out a few % of coconut by either won't make a big difference (it _will_, by adding gentle/conditioning qualities and lowering CO's drying/stripping qualities, but it doesn't matter too much which soft oil you choose for this).



What about.....10%? I guess there's a way to find out heh.



ResolvableOwl said:


> From the (linoleic) numbers, RBO is slightly stronger than canola (but it also brings _quite some palm*i*tic acid_).



This is the reason I am sort of latching onto this oil, it gives me wiggle room to remove some stearic acid (really the 50/50 S/P combo stuff I have) and make even more room for...



ResolvableOwl said:


> And what about castor?



Ooooo....a wild fat appears. From what I read it's easy to fall in love with castor as the numbers invite ever higher additions. I've also read of the dark side however-stickiness. Not such an issue at lower percentages though. I believe it was DeeAnna who clarified for many that it is not an inherent bubble maker, but more of a bubble booster-which is perfectly awesome since we have the bubble king in Coconut Oil.



ResolvableOwl said:


> HL sunflower is the “worst” of all (most linoleic for most silky-soft lather, but also inviting rancidity), while HO sunflower is very similar to olive oil.
> Almond oil would be another popular option, anecdotally it'll bring its own bubbliness that soap calculators cannot account for.



Rancidity...there is always a flipside heh. I scoured your Linoleics Anonymous thread and was tempted to reply, however I wouldn't be contributing or adding anything. The opening post however serves quite a primer for the various oils, pros and cons, and what the FA profiles are up to. Almond oil though, eh? Hmmm...

I'm envisioning experiments with the HL and HO oils. What is the least amount I can add to feel benefit, what is the most I can add until lather is affected negatively, and perhaps which is most efficient percentage wise (if I can add 8% of an oil to receive the same benefit that another oil gives at 15%, that leaves 7% for something else to pump up.



ResolvableOwl said:


> Another modification direction for the recipe would be to gradually replace the free stearic/palmitic acids by *palm oil*. In your recipe, lower each free acid by 5% and the CO by 10%, and replace them by 20% palm oil – the P+S (“longevity number”) is nearly unchanged, but your “conditioning number” magically tripled



I know palm oil is some magic stuff and I don't begrudge anyone for using it, but this is one of the few lines I'm drawing. I wish to avoid palm oil in any form. I know it's only soap and I know I'm not selling, this is just from a personal satisfaction POV and I'd rather avoid it if I can. However, reducing the free stearic/palmatic acids while skewing palmatic up and increasing linoleic acid is conveniently possible with RBO. Hardness goes down with v1.1 though, and kind of wondering if that is a worry with KOH.



ResolvableOwl said:


> The original recipe mentions *cetyl alcohol* (C12:0 alcohol). You could buy it in pure form at a cosmetics supplier, or alternatively add jojoba oil at a few % into your oil mix for a loosely similar effect. Lye will cleave it into soap and long-chain fatty alcohols (mainly C20:1 and C22:1).



I had nearly forgotten about cetyl alcohol. I may have to try this recipe with every single additive in their "perfect" form to see how it performs compared to the "basic" formula. Definitely an interesting additive.




ResolvableOwl said:


> Note that in the original recipe, the *5 minutes HP cook is a really short time*, and only possible since coconut oil saponifies exceptionally quickly.
> If you add any “slow” oil, expect increased cooking times. An incomplete saponification will finish over a few days, so it'll be safe soap. But your goal should be to fully saponify on the stovetop (to protect post-cook additives), and for this be confident that you can tell when the saponification reaction is over.



Thank you for that reminder. Something like this might seem totally obvious for a seasoned soap maker, but dang I could see myself wondering what the heck is wrong when the batch is not firming up-especially considering I'm not SBing with tiny 150 g batches.

Aaaaaand here's version 1.1. New and improved soapcalc numbers attached. Also old soapcalc numbers also attached.

Added: RBO, Castor. Lowered CO, and stearic/palmitic. Kept similar ratio of free S/P to CO, which might be up for adjustment with RBO in the mix. Figured I should keep something as a control to see what the other variables do on their own.

Changes:
*Improvements*
P:S ratio 28:22 (from 31:29)
Cleansing 24 (from 30)
Conditioning 22 (from 5!)

*Possible improvement*
Oleic 10, Linoleic 7 (from 4, 1)

*Not sure*
S+P 50 (from 60)

*Worsening*
Bubbly 28 (from 30)-very slight
Creamy 55 (from 60)-a little worrisome...
Hardness 74  (from 90)-also worrisome...

What I really dig about this process so far is the lack of need for "exotics" and the fact that I just might get a super shave soap by adjusting oils I already have and can source without wasting some precious thing like murumuru butter. I'm considering that icing on the cake for now. I've got cocoa and Shea butter at the ready, along with jojoba to play with should my homework and efforts turn out.


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## ResolvableOwl (May 17, 2021)

Johnez said:


> What about.....10%? I guess there's a way to find out heh.


Well, single-digit additions more often than not aren't distinguishable at all (castor oil as an exception). Your proposed 18% RBO sound generous (but still safe). There's a reason why RBO is so popular.



Johnez said:


> I'm envisioning experiments with the HL and HO oils. What is the least amount I can add to feel benefit, what is the most I can add until lather is affected negatively, and perhaps which is most efficient percentage wise (if I can add 8% of an oil to receive the same benefit that another oil gives at 15%, that leaves 7% for something else to pump up.


I guess there's a way to find out heh. But seriously, as long as your recipe contains >50% hard fats and <15% PUFA, and you use it as shaving soap, those won't make much difference. Not the most flexible basis to work on.



Johnez said:


> I know palm oil is some magic stuff and I don't begrudge anyone for using it, but this is one of the few lines I'm drawing. I wish to avoid palm oil in any form. I know it's only soap and I know I'm not selling, this is just from a personal satisfaction POV and I'd rather avoid it if I can.


Not sure if we already talked about this somewhere else: are you sure your stearic acid itself is palm-free? Putting 55% or only 42% of a “not-sure-but-I'm-hoping-it's-made-from-hydrogenated-soy-but-it-might-as-well-be-from-beef-tallow-or-palm” ingredient into a soap might be self-deceptive. Palm oil is also a popular source of “vegetable glycerol”.



Johnez said:


> Something like this might seem totally obvious for a seasoned soap maker, but dang I could see myself wondering what the heck is wrong when the batch is not firming up-especially considering I'm not SBing with tiny 150 g batches.


It's even worse. With that amount of FFAs, the soap will inevitably harden up under any circumstances, and is very prone to what a CPer would fear as “false trace” and/or “soap on a stick”. You don't even _notice_ if your saponification is over or not!




Johnez said:


> Changes:
> *Improvements*
> P:S ratio 28:22 (from 31:29)
> Cleansing 24 (from 30)
> ...



It looks like a fair evolution of the original recipe. Don't expect wonders from it, and keep an eye on how it feels in comparison to the first iteration – if you can _feel_ an improvement (on the skin, the ease of whipping, etc.), or if it is just numbers on paper that are tricking you.

Absolutely don't worry about hardness numbers. They are way off the chart anyway (as they should for shave soap). As a matter of fact, your lower “hardness” mostly reflects the lower input of coconut, which you wanted to achieve.
And should you, for whatever reason, end up with a soap too soft for your taste, you still have the turning knob to add salt (sodium).



Johnez said:


> What I really dig about this process so far is the lack of need for "exotics" and the fact that I just might get a super shave soap by adjusting oils I already have and can source without wasting some precious thing like murumuru butter. I'm considering that icing on the cake for now. I've got cocoa and Shea butter at the ready, along with jojoba to play with should my homework and efforts turn out.


Great point! Everyone can make label-appeal-heavy “premium” products, but not everyone understands that it isn't the fact that “X butter and cold-pressed Y” is in there, but which unique properties they actually bring (and if they are unique at all!). It is clever to start with the very basics and develop an understanding about what additions to this add to the quality step by step.

One _could_ make a 100% cocoa butter soap, it'd have exactly the S+P (“longevity”) content of your original recipe, with some wow-effect ingredient list. Though, it'll probably be of questionable worth for its purpose.
There is more to an ingredient than the pure numbers.
Only one number is guaranteed to hold true: *1.1*, the version number of universal progress


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## Johnez (May 17, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Not sure if we already talked about this somewhere else: are you sure your stearic acid itself is palm-free? Putting 55% or only 42% of a “not-sure-but-I'm-hoping-it's-made-from-hydrogenated-soy-but-it-might-as-well-be-from-beef-tallow-or-palm” ingredient into a soap might be self-deceptive. Palm oil is also a popular source of “vegetable glycerol”.



Regarding the stearic acid, yes-if the supplier's explicit "soy derived" claim can be believed. And regarding the glycerin, I just recently became aware and honestly I'm finding it quite difficult getting a clear palm free version, though I haven't done a deep search like I did with the SA yet.



ResolvableOwl said:


> I guess there's a way to find out heh. But seriously, as long as your recipe contains >50% hard fats and <15% PUFA, and you use it as shaving soap, those won't make much difference. Not the most flexible basis to work on.



Thanks for this rule of thumb. Reading about PUFAs is on my list of things to research.



ResolvableOwl said:


> It's even worse. With that amount of FFAs, the soap will inevitably harden up under any circumstances, and is very prone to what a CPer would fear as “false trace” and/or “soap on a stick”. You don't even _notice_ if your saponification is over or not!
> 
> It looks like a fair evolution of the original recipe. Don't expect wonders from it, and keep an eye on how it feels in comparison to the first iteration – if you can _feel_ an improvement (on the skin, the ease of whipping, etc.), or if it is just numbers on paper that are tricking you.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the feedback and encouragement. I'll keep the experiment progress posted. Have learned quite a bit from simply reading, now it's time for the doing.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 18, 2021)

Don't forget that the calcs are usually assuming that you're making a soap for washing, rather than one for shaving. The numbers and how they apply to a washing soap does not automatically translate in to a shaving soap. 

I admit that I can't give you a lot of feedback because I don't actually understand your goal. If the performance isn't up to par with the soaps you know, how does your recipe compare to it? I get the feeling that you're trying to get that level of performance but with a very different recipe because you want to use a certain type of recipe, rather than using a recipe which will get you the performance that you're after - and while some do say that they and their husband/wife/family/friends etc get on with the soap, you know that it isn't a one-size-fits-all scenario and those sorts of recipes might not work at all for you.


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## Johnez (May 18, 2021)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Don't forget that the calcs are usually assuming that you're making a soap for washing, rather than one for shaving. The numbers and how they apply to a washing soap does not automatically translate in to a shaving soap.
> 
> I admit that I can't give you a lot of feedback because I don't actually understand your goal. If the performance isn't up to par with the soaps you know, how does your recipe compare to it? I get the feeling that you're trying to get that level of performance but with a very different recipe because you want to use a certain type of recipe, rather than using a recipe which will get you the performance that you're after - and while some do say that they and their husband/wife/family/friends etc get on with the soap, you know that it isn't a one-size-fits-all scenario and those sorts of recipes might not work at all for you.



The goal is to simply create a really good shaving soap. The ultimate goal however is to learn about soapmaking and how certain ingredients interact.

I started with this recipe because it seems like a good entry point for a beginner, but I'm not tied to the exact recipe itself. One size most definitely does not fit all, heck there are tons of people who really enjoy the basic DIY MdC soap all over the forums and blogs and yet the recipe I pulled from adds 4 or 5 ingredients (including an oil). I've kept the bones (CO, SA+KOH) of the recipe and haven't completely flipped the board over on it yet. I'm just looking to see what I can use from that experience to get what I want-which I didn't even know really until I actually made it. Now if I decided to chuck SA and go the tallow route...that'd be totally out there and I wouldn't even bother keeping this thread going. Heck if the next few batches don't do it for me I just might go down that path and leave MdC totally behind. I think there's promise here though.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 18, 2021)

Aye, but you still have to remember that how oils interact and so on depends entirely on the use - body soap vs shaving soap, and things like hardness and longevity numbers are far from cut and dry when dealing with body soap, but even less meaningful when dealing with a shaving soap. 

I think the biggest issue that you are having with the soap is the lack of glycerine. Which is surprising as the songwind thread has that very clearly there with the important reason for including it - if you're using something other than a triglyceride (eg stearic acid) in an amount that will give a benefit, you're missing out on a massive amount of glycerine. You can get responsibly sourced palm based glycerine too, if you look. But if you are using ffas without adding in glycerine, it won't perform anywhere like it should


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## Johnez (May 18, 2021)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Aye, but you still have to remember that how oils interact and so on depends entirely on the use - body soap vs shaving soap, and things like hardness and longevity numbers are far from cut and dry when dealing with body soap, but even less meaningful when dealing with a shaving soap.
> 
> I think the biggest issue that you are having with the soap is the lack of glycerine. Which is surprising as the songwind thread has that very clearly there with the important reason for including it - if you're using something other than a triglyceride (eg stearic acid) in an amount that will give a benefit, you're missing out on a massive amount of glycerine. You can get responsibly sourced palm based glycerine too, if you look. But if you are using ffas without adding in glycerine, it won't perform anywhere like it should



Oh I'm using glycerine! I followed the "standard" (the one without additives) recipe from the blog I linked to a T, with exception of the salt which I might've gone a little too heavy on due to a scale issue. Thank you for the reminder of the limitations with regards to FFAs though. Now you've got me thinking about whether this soap truly is for me though being glycerine is supposed to address the issue I'm having. Hmm.

And yes, I'm aware shaving soap is measured FAR differently than bath soap. Soap Calcs "values" (bubbly, hardness, etc) appear to not take into account quite a few things I'm learning as well, on top of the fact that their values don't always correlate to what actually happens in the soap. I'm slowly learning that. :-/


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 18, 2021)

The basis of that is sound, but their additions to it are things that I wouldn't touch - 

it needs no salt at all. Absolutely none. This sort of soap pretty much has to go in a container of some sort, so salt can only be counterproductive. 

Olive oil is a poor choice. I would add in some more coconut oil after the cook before adding olive oil! 

My recipe has landed at this:

47% sa
28% tallow
25% co

Only KoH, no NaOH
2% lye discount
33% lye solution - 1/4 to 1/3 of the liquid amount as milk added after the cook. Rest used for the solution itself

Added after the cook -

2.5% Shea butter
2.5% lanolin
15% glycerine
Milk (prefer goat or sheep)
7% Scent

I'm not saying that it is the best and only recipe, but it's fairly simple with relatively easily obtainable ingredients - and it performs very well. Used it last night and the only places where I was bleeding from were either my own mistake around the lip or where some skin tags popped up recently and they got taken off. Other than that it was plain sailing with my straight razor. 

If you want a sample (enough to pay the postage from Europe!) drop me a pm


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## Johnez (May 18, 2021)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The basis of that is sound, but their additions to it are things that I wouldn't touch -
> 
> it needs no salt at all. Absolutely none. This sort of soap pretty much has to go in a container of some sort, so salt can only be counterproductive.
> 
> ...



Now we're talkin'! Frankly I was a bit surprised about the inclusion of OO, however I didn't want my biases preventing me from hitting on something good so I gave it a shot. It's only part of the superfat and at 3% so maybe only a negligible effect. Anyway, I appreciate the candid words and different perspective.


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## Professor Bernardo (May 19, 2021)

@Johnez  You seem to be an intermediate level soap maker so you might want to try this recipe and method. 

I have used the following recipe with great success.  It makes a very rich, dense, creamy lather and is ready to go in about a week's worth of air curing / drying.

The total recipe oil weight is 500g 
Stearic Acid - 60% 
Shea Butter -  15% 
Coconut Oil -   15% 
Cocoa Butter -  5% 
Castor Oil  -       5% 
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) - 40% 
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) - 60% 
Superfat - 6% 

To calculate your dual-lye amounts, you can use the soap calculators here on this forum The Soap Making Friend or at Soapee (http://soapee.com/calculator) or Majestic Mountain Sage (https://bit.ly/234ixsG). Both calculate amounts for hybrid lye solutions. 

Water = 2.6 x (NaOH + KOH)   (28% lye solution) 
I adjusted the lye solution to 25% to make it a little more easy to handle scooping into a 3" PVC Pipe mold.
I also added Sodium Lactate along with the glycerin and fragrance oil to make it easier to stir.
Glycerin - 10% of the total oil weight (50g for my 500g recipe)

 I originally saw via YouTube.  It's a Dual Lye Modified Cold Process soap.  The results truly speak for themselves.

You can check out the video here:  Making Dual Lye Shaving Soap | Modified Cold Process Method

Just watch out for the potential for a volcano... so far I have done two batches with no issues.  ()

Regardless, good luck in your endeavors.


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## Johnez (May 19, 2021)

Professor Bernardo said:


> @Johnez  You seem to be an intermediate level soap maker so you might want to try this recipe and method.
> 
> I have used the following recipe with great success.  It makes a very rich, dense, creamy lather and is ready to go in about a week's worth of air curing / drying.
> 
> ...



Thanks PB, I've yet to try a dual lye soap so this should be interesting when I get the chance.


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## Johnez (Sep 6, 2021)

Hey gang I'm back!

I'm ready to push v1.1 to get back into the swing of things. Attached is the screen shot of my inputs, and being it's been a while so I hope this turns out well.

Anyway, as you can see I've procured the RBO (at a fantastic price too) and am getting ready to play with castor oil-w00t!

Soap recipe:

52.5g Coconut oil
63.0g Stearic Acid (50/50 SA, PA)
27.0g RBO
7.5g Castor oil
15.0g glycerin

53.19g water
35.46g 90% KOH

3g EO blend (Rosemary, Lavender, Lemon-3:2:1)

Next up deciding whether to play with butters (cocoa and Shea) or make a tallow soap. I might do each butter independently to figure out shave properties and then formulate a master recipe with the best results.


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## Johnez (Sep 6, 2021)

Well dang, first impressions so far in making this soap is it is waaaaaaay slower to trace. I had such a fast trace last time I'm kind of surprised. Didn't expand instantly either. I'm not sure if it's a result of the lil dipper crock not being as hot as my larger one, the adjustment in CO and SA, the properties of castor oil and/or RBO affecting trace....or a combination of factors. 

Kind of interesting. One thing is for sure, smaller batches are way harder to measure and quite a bit messier. :-/


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 7, 2021)

Small batches are messier, but large batches are messier too  

(Let's stop here before it gets too philosophical)

Well, you essentially scraped off the RBO from the coconut oil. More unsaturated oil blend means slower saponification. RBO brings oleic and linoleic acid, that were essentially non-present in the original formula.
I'm curious now how the two compare in terms of application and skin feel!


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## Johnez (Sep 7, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Small batches are messier, but large batches are messier too
> 
> (Let's stop here before it gets too philosophical)
> 
> ...


I'll wait a week before I give a proper comparison since my initial impressions are not entirely positive. I'll say this-it is slicker than the previous soap.

I did give it a lather and it explodes just as voluminously and easily as the MdC clone. Lathering ability is about the bottom of my list on things that make a great shave soap. However, for this reason alone I'm considering doing a 1.2 version as with this much lather I am considering cutting down on coconut (which is probably causing some skin issues) and even stearic acid.


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## ResolvableOwl (Sep 7, 2021)

But what to replace the saturated coconut and stearic acid with? It's the natural tendency of unsaturated FAs to make soft, slimy, ropy soap; I'm not sure if that is what you want. Giving it a week to calm down after saponification is a good first step.


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## Johnez (Sep 8, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> But what to replace the saturated coconut and stearic acid with? It's the natural tendency of unsaturated FAs to make soft, slimy, ropy soap; I'm not sure if that is what you want. Giving it a week to calm down after saponification is a good first step.



I was tempted to try going with Shea butter, however in the interest of addressing the main issue I'm having (lacking slickness and some irritation) I'll try isolating as few variables as I can. Lowering coconut oil from 35% to 25% and a tick up to the remaining ingredients. 

Conditioning:Cleansing ratio goes to 27:17 from 22:24, a (seemingly) major improvement from 5:35 of the original MdC. Maxing out Castor oil, and maybe higher on the RBO than I should be. SA+PA still remains a respectable 53.

I'm not sure if this is a worthwhile change being coconut oil is still 25% of this recipe. I've completely warped the original with the addition of RBO and castor. I suppose in the long run the benefit will be that I can figure out how much CO is acceptable for me personally. Such a useful ingredient.

Regarding unsaturated FAs, thanks for pointing that out, I had didn't realize I had almost divided my soap along those lines. Although I hadn't planned on replacing SA with a soft oil, I'll keep my eye on that.


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## Professor Bernardo (Sep 8, 2021)

@Johnez Didn't I give a link to the recipe I used to make my shave soaps?  That puck I sent you was from that recipe.

Just curious is all on my part. Try the original recipe if you haven't already, I believe you will be pleased with the results.  Also I have found that fiddling around with a tried and true recipe to the extreme can be detrimental at times.  Do it in baby steps.  Plus making very small size recipes it is difficult to achieve the results one gets with the normal sized recipe.  Normally to test a recipe I will make a half-sized batch and no smaller.

This is the recipe I sent you:
**** RECIPE **** My total recipe oil weight was 500g NOTE:  I made a 250 gram batch to test it at first.  Used the Soapmaking Friend Calculator too.
Stearic Acid - 60% 
Shea Butter -  15% 
Coconut Oil -   15% 
Cocoa Butter -  5% 
Castor Oil  -       5% 
Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) - 40% 
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) - 60% 
Superfat - 6% 
Water = 2.6 x (NaOH + KOH)   (28% lye solution) 
**NOTE:  I modified the water amount to make a 23% lye solution to make it easier to pour into my 3" x 24" PVC soap mold.
Glycerin - 10% of the total oil weight (50g for my 500g recipe)

YouTube Link:  Making Dual Lye Shaving Soap | Modified Cold Process Method


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## Johnez (Sep 8, 2021)

@Professor Bernardo -yes you have. I have yet to try it, but I will I promise! Summertime ain't soaping time for me unfortunately, a promotion and added workload....and a thousand other things. 

As for these microbatches, they are very difficult. The problem with this hobby of mine is that it can be very productive, TOO productive even. I would gift em but they're not up to the quality I would like quite yet. 

Dual lye is my next challenge. Since you're here I'm curious as to why you like dual lye. Is it necessary for the type of recipe, or is there an inherent benefit to all recipes? I personally don't mind the tack of the soft shave soaps, and notice many postings are from soapers who move from NaOH to dual lye, rarely from KOH however. I'm obviously up for new things so will give it a go out of curiosity.


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## Professor Bernardo (Sep 8, 2021)

Johnez said:


> @Professor Bernardo
> Dual lye is my next challenge. Since you're here I'm curious as to why you like dual lye. Is it necessary for the type of recipe, or is there an inherent benefit to all recipes? I personally don't mind the tack of the soft shave soaps, and notice many postings are from soapers who move from NaOH to dual lye, rarely from KOH however. I'm obviously up for new things so will give it a go out of curiosity.


Dual Lye helps to make a semi-soft puck of soap.  It's also used in the "Cream Soap" process, of which I am experimenting with now.  Since the soap is softer consistency I think it really helps with the lathering ability to be quickly reached.  In addition, I am now adding a 5% of the total oils weight with Sorbitol powder to my liquid in the recipes to improve the lathering.  From what I've read here on the forum, many soap makers swear by Sorbitol for it's efficiency and efficacy in the lathering process.

I have done liquid soaps too, started with those many years ago using Catherine Failor's book.  I use both liquid and solid soaps for my daily hygiene showering and switch back and forth.  Liquid soap makes a great lathering shampoo!  I am sticking with dual-lye for the shave soaps though as it really seems to work well.


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## Johnez (Sep 8, 2021)

Ooh I have scrolled through the cream soap thread here, even looked for the legendary book (same author) on the topic but it's way out of price range right now. Soooooon. The "rot" procedure is intriguing, such a funny word to describe a soaping step.

Thank you for the note explaining the reason. Makes good sense.


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## Professor Bernardo (Sep 8, 2021)

Johnez said:


> Ooh I have scrolled through the cream soap thread here, even looked for the legendary book (same author) on the topic but it's way out of price range right now. Soooooon. The "rot" procedure is intriguing, such a funny word to describe a soaping step.
> 
> Thank you for the note explaining the reason. Makes good sense.



Go see my reply in the fragrance thread I started and we got a little off the beaten path so to speak.  Look for "rotted"... LOL!  
In that reply you will see a link to the website where I have found the process and recipe for making a whipped cream soap, I just changed a couple of things to suit my oil supply and such.

Leather Fragrance Oil - Which supplier is best?


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## Johnez (Sep 12, 2021)

Well a quick update for those patient enough to follow along my meandering path:

A week of "rest" from using the latest 1.2 edition of shave soap has yielded an excellent shave. Most of the issues faced on first shave have disappeared. Slickness is there. There is no irritation. The soap has calmed somewhat and shaving was a pleasant experience. I had been slightly worried that I had an inherent process error considering literally everyone seemed to enjoy the original MdC clone but me, however it may be that my skin is sensitive to coconut in heavy amounts. Lowering the CO has helped a LOT. I did 5 passes on my chin, I've got a dang fine shave on my hands fellas.

The ultimate test for me is how I'd feel if I had purchased this soap, and well I would not be pissed off if I had paid for this lil tub of soap. It *is* my baby though so maybe I'm biased haha.


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## Bubble Agent (Sep 20, 2021)

Johnez said:


> Well a quick update for those patient enough to follow along my meandering path:
> 
> A week of "rest" from using the latest 1.2 edition of shave soap has yielded an excellent shave. Most of the issues faced on first shave have disappeared. Slickness is there. There is no irritation. The soap has calmed somewhat and shaving was a pleasant experience. I had been slightly worried that I had an inherent process error considering literally everyone seemed to enjoy the original MdC clone but me, however *it may be that my skin is sensitive to coconut in heavy amounts. *Lowering the CO has helped a LOT. I did 5 passes on my chin, I've got a dang fine shave on my hands fellas.
> 
> The ultimate test for me is how I'd feel if I had purchased this soap, and well I would not be pissed off if I had paid for this lil tub of soap. It *is* my baby though so maybe I'm biased haha.



You are not alone in being like that! My husband can not tolerate high ammount of coconut either, and he has very sensitive skin that start to itch and get red and with sore bumps whenever there is something he reacts too, even if he moisturizes afterwards. 

Even if you should be biased now, the real test is the one that you get if you still like it after time has passed adn you have used it many times. If you still like it the way it is, then it is a keeper!

True story, yesterday he actually told me in no uncertain terms that _"Please, do not to fiddle with ANY more recipes, the last shaving soap you made ticked *ALL *the boxes!! This one is the one. OK??"_

Which was so funny coming from him as he he is just a tall teddybear, and  does not usually have very strong opinions when it comes stuff, easy going and goes with the flow. I always have to make sure that I don`t overtake things and I do want his opinions a lot of stuff, but he is just fine with whatever. _Which can be a double edge sword, aaargh... lol._

But that was not the case now, so if he was _*this *_adamant about the soap, I know he really means it! He hasn`t been this decisive since he wanted me to be his wife almost 30 years ago, so I should take that as a compliment

Shaving soap for the gentlemen are such an interesting topic, so I find it very educational for a soapmaking woman like me, that you gents talk about things from your own perspectives! I learn a lot, so thank you!

_Now I juuuuuust need to try the same recipe with a 100% KOH instead of the 70/30 koh/naOH at least once, then I am done. 



Unless I am not... Shhhhhhh ..._


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## Johnez (Sep 20, 2021)

Bubble Agent said:


> Even if you should be biased now, the real test is the one that you get if you still like it after time has passed adn you have used it many times. If you still like it the way it is, then it is a keeper!



Oh yes, 100% agreed. There's quite a few variables one can adjust, however if I find a recipe that wows me, I'll probably call it. Until I get the itch to try something different (tallow base, cream, exotics, etc).

And I empathize with your husband, once it's "good" I don't want it changed...ever. When I was a kid my ma made mashed potatoes the same way for years and years, when she changed it up one day both me and my bro were stunned and begged her to go back. The secret was simple-leave some chunks haha! Something so simple yet so integral we just couldn't have it another way.

The wetshavers groups and artisan offerings have grown since I've started a decade ago. Its not just soap either, but brushes, razors, and blades. Quite a rabbit hole one can fall into.


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## Bubble Agent (Sep 20, 2021)

Johnez said:


> Oh yes, 100% agreed. There's quite a few variables one can adjust, however if I find a recipe that wows me, I'll probably call it. Until I get the itch to try something different (tallow base, cream, exotics, etc).
> 
> And I empathize with your husband, *once it's "good" I don't want it changed...ever*. When I was a kid my ma made mashed potatoes the same way for years and years, when she changed it up one day both me and my bro were stunned and begged her to go back. The secret was simple-leave some chunks haha! Something so simple yet so integral we just couldn't have it another way.
> 
> The wetshavers groups and artisan offerings have grown since I've started a decade ago. *Its not just soap either, but brushes, razors, and blades. Quite a rabbit hole one can fall into.*



Don`t I know it! Don`t fix it if it aint broke, right? I am the same way. If you want to test my latest recipe just PM me, I am happy to share privately. It is palm free and vegan. The one I shared in the what soapy thing-thread. ( here )

And your warning came a bit late, I have _already _started to _drop deep into that rabbit hole_ research for the best shaving brush, and other things relating to shaving... You know, just in case whatever happens in the future of selling shaving soaps and targeting the gents... Oh, boiii...


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## Johnez (Oct 2, 2021)

Well an update on the one that started it all, MdC shave clone of the famous songwind thread:






As is plenty visible, the lather is just phenomenal, perfect texture and goes in the face thick and pillowy. Upon the "first with the grain" pass I was pleasantly surprised at how smooth the razor glided. Slicker than I remembered. Second and third pass however were less comfortable, by the third pass I knew I wasn't going to be able to touch up the rough patches. I have to say with a 5 month cure time and perhaps my simple time away from the soap it does seem to have improved in feel. I was able to achieve a very good shave (not BBS) with little effort, definitely closer than initial testing. My face does have a sort of slightly "raw" or "exposed" feel. I hesitate in describing this because those words feel like an exaggeration, the feeling is very slight, not to the point of irritated, and not conditioned (though that's not really a goal or requirement). Most likely it's due to the very high coconut content. Although scent is not all that important here, it did fade on me quite a bit, I would say to only 30% of it's original strength. Very faint. The citric EO fade is real unfortunately.

My takeaway from this is it's been a heck of a learning experience and making this soap first was a nice primer in using stearic acid and KOH successfully. I'd wholeheartedly recommend every new soaper try this recipe, with the accompanying instructions as it's nearly fool proof, brings experience in 4 of the perennial shaving ingredients (KOH, SA, CO, glycerin), and isn't prone to surprises or random issues. The variables are few and easy to address, and the recipe sets a nice foundation for figuring out what ya want in a soap. Just perfect.


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## Marsi (Oct 3, 2021)

Johnez said:


> Well an update on the one that started it all, MdC shave clone of the famous songwind thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


good looking lather  

citrus EO can be irritating for some people

your soap looks divine!


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