# Inflation!



## Ugeauxgirl (Jun 11, 2022)

I went to the store this afternoon to buy a few things including a bucket of lard.  It has gone from about $14 when I started soaping (about 18 months ago) to $20 now.  Ouch!  Olive oil hasn't gone up nearly as much around here and is now cheaper than lard.   Considering that most butchers toss pork fat, it's kind of surprising.   I'm either going to have to use less in my recipes, make less soap, or render my own.  Sheesh.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 11, 2022)

Ugeauxgirl said:


> I'm either going to have to use less in my recipes, make less soap, or render my own.


Or raise your prices.


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## Ugeauxgirl (Jun 11, 2022)

Well since I've been giving it away, I guess I could start charging a little something...


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## AliOop (Jun 11, 2022)

I actually can't get my super-low-priced hog fat from my friendly local butcher any longer. I think he's found a good market for it and is no longer giving it away.


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## Catscankim (Jun 12, 2022)

Prices of everything have gone up, thats why I have started growing food and saving seeds as of late. I saw oranges at the supermarket for $4 each. I'm in FLORIDA!! I frequently see orange trucks driving on their way to the Tropicana plant, and the oranges just bounce out all over the place onto the road (or hitting your car). I'm like $4, $4, $4... One time a truck hit a big bump and all these oranges popped out. So I pulled over and picked them up lol.

Hate to be a chicken little, but something is going on. I feel like the world is in a very bad spot right now. We crafters are going to be the only ones left with something to contribute. Mask shortage: I made my own. Food shortage/high prices: I grow my own. Who knows how to make soap and other essential BB products? WE do. Who has enough soap to supply the world right out of their closet, WE do LOL.

Living in Florida, we are accustomed to stockpiling because of hurricanes. But lately it is a new weird vibe. I order a lot of seeds online. I had a bunch in my online cart on Wenesday awaiting payday on Friday. When I went back to check out, they were all out of stock. Zero potato or sweet potato slips. No eggplant. The stuff that was in stock went from $2/$3 a package of seeds, to $5 or even $8. This was a matter of days. Free shipping, to $14 shipping. And honestly, they are seeds. The last order I got from them they shipped in envelopes with postage stamps... and go to big box store like lowes, all they have are ornamental plants and rows of basil, mint, and tomatoes. Nothing really sustainable in the Florida garden. It gets hot here...tomatoes are hard to grow.

The grocery store was out of milk and half and half yesterday. Do you know that florida is the biggest cattle state, even above texas? Yet here we are, no milk. I had to buy almond milk. I mean, I like almond milk. But its not a good replacement for my half and half in coffee. When Covid started, they were dumping milk..You drive across route 70 near tropicana, the orange groves and dairy cows....why can't we get any of this?? Mac Arthur dairy farm is right there (amongst others), why don't we get any Mac Arthur milk, or half and half, or cream??


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## Relle (Jun 12, 2022)

Iceberg lettuce here are now $12.  I'm not paying that for lettuce, it's because of all the rain we had.


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## dibbles (Jun 12, 2022)

I live in MN. Our growing season is from May (if we're lucky) through September. I quit canning years ago, but I do freeze squash and tomatoes. I make big batches of stuffed peppers and freeze those, but that's about all I do other than the occasional jam. I'd love to be able to have something growing all year, but I will agree that there is nothing that can compare to a home-grown tomato.

I notice random shortages at the grocery store. It's been pasta for the last couple of months. About 2 months ago, there was no almond milk one week, and a very limited supply the next week. Since then it's been readily available again. I buy yogurt for both my hubby and myself. The choice of flavors he likes isn't always available.

But it's better than it was during the early pandemic days. At least here, anyway. And what used to cost $75 is now closer to $100.


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## earlene (Jun 12, 2022)

Some of the current shortages got even worse when Russia invaded the Ukraine and the ongoing war is impacting the global supply chain.  We noticed it right away here. Added on top of the shortages from prolonged effects of CoVid and climate change, having 2 major exporters of wheat & other grains at war with each other, what can we expect?  In a global community, of which we are a part, these types of things impact all of us, eventually.

Yesterday I planted onions.  Red onions & white onions, my two favorite types of onions to buy.  It's not that I expect a shortage of onions (but who knows, right?), but the price of the bulbs was good & I am hoping they don't get too soggy with all the rain we keep having.  It rains here a lot in the summer; I'm still not used to it after living here for 17 years.

That and potatoes are all I am growing this year.  I just travel too much to grow things that need daily or weekly attention, so we'll see how it goes with onions & potatoes.  Even during CoVid, I did not grow anything but stinging nettle and that wasn't something I planted myself; it just grew, so I harvested it & make nettle soup with it sometimes.  I even infused some oil to make soap with, just for the heck of it.

I recall when the price of lettuce was so high my auntie said she wouldn't buy it.  My mom said to her elder sister, you choose to deprive your family of a well-balanced diet over the price of lettuce?  My mom's sister was married to an executive of a major milk brand in Southern California at the time and we all considered them to be very rich, and my mom followed the nutritional recommendations of the USDA back then.  She planned her meals based on the Basic 7, later to become the Basic 4 Food Groups.  She was adamant that meals be well balanced and salad was served at least once, sometimes twice a day in our home.  Not to buy lettuce was something my mom would never have condoned.  And she certainly could not understand why someone with money to burn cared how much lettuce cost in the first place.

Someone posted here a few months ago that globally the price of all oils was going to go up, and I am not surprised to see that it is happening.

Does anyone remember a time when the price of gas was less than 20¢ per gallon?  I do.  I was about 8 years old. We were driving to visit my dad's sister in Southern Oregon.  Gas was 16.9¢ per gallon at this one station where we stopped.  It always amazes me that I even paid attention to the price of gasoline at that age, but this is one thing I have never forgotten because it seemed pretty remarkable at the time; or perhaps it was my parents' comments about it that sealed it in my memory.  I think the average price of gas in California at the time was closer to 30¢ per gallon.  It went up to $1.00 per gallon (where I lived in California) during OPEC in the early 70's. My second son was a still a baby; the lines to get gas were extremely long.  I was knitting a blue baby blanket while waiting in line for gasoline.   I don't think we even pumped our own gas in California yet before OPEC.  As I recall, it was after that that we started seeing the loss of gas jockey jobs and an increase in self-service pumps at gas stations in California.

Global economic impact.  It will always be with us.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jun 12, 2022)

I remember the gas shortage back in the 70s.  I was living in San Francisco at the time and we had to wait hours in long lines to get gas.  And the price hovered at 99¢ for a while because the pumps had to be renovated to accommodate the extra digit to charge $1.00.


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## dibbles (Jun 12, 2022)

I need to order sodium citrate. The price has more than doubled for what I bought last time! I need to look around a little.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 12, 2022)

Relle said:


> Iceberg lettuce here are now $12.  I'm not paying that for lettuce,


When we visited Australia in '88 we saw "rocket" salad everywhere. Later we learned "rocket" was arugula which was just coming in vogue in the USA at the time. LUV it! And much *more nutritious than Iceburg*, I can't remember the last time I bought iceburg. I can't help but wonder what the cost of arugala is there? Just curious.  



Catscankim said:


> Zero potato or sweet potato slips.


I don't know if this will play in Florida but, right now, if I put potatoes or yams in my potato bin, loose, they start growing "eyes" within a week or two. Dig a 14" hole, add the potato/yam, thrown in some manure or compost, and cover them up. You might want to double check those directions, just like you would the lye amount in any shared soap recipe, but you should be harvesting them late fall.


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## cmzaha (Jun 12, 2022)

The 50# blocks of lard I used to pay $27 for at Smart & Final are now $67. I am glad I decided to retire from selling. The blocks of Tallow Shortening went from approx $35 to $69 last time I looked. I posted a while back what my CO went up to for the 35lb buckets from the will-call supplier, it over tripled in price along with PKO. I used to pay around $27-30 for 35 lbs of CO now it is over $100 from the same supplier.

This severely takes the profit out of a $7 bar of soap.

ETA: Sunflower HO from $35 for 35 lbs to $150. I just checked Cibaria soap Supply, which was my bulk will-call supplier for yrs.


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## AliOop (Jun 12, 2022)

The other issue is the COVID lockdown in Shanghai. For some reason, this isn't featured as much on the news as the issues with wheat from Russia and Ukraine. Shanghai has the world's largest container port, and the lockdown has stopped the flow of goods in, out, and through this port. In addition, the production of food and goods from China was also severely interrupted.

For those of you who enjoy lettuce, it's very easy to grow outdoors in cool weather, and indoors in hot weather. I just harvested a huge bag of the last of my outdoor lettuce, since it was all starting to bolt. I'll be planting more indoors in the next week or so, and also harvesting, cooking, and canning from my ginormous rhubarb plant. 

Sadly, our strawberries and tomatoes aren't faring so well in all the rain, and the beets are struggling. Thankfully, the blueberries are looking pretty good. Anything we can grow ourselves takes a little bit of pressure off the mounting grocery bills.


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## Relle (Jun 12, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> When we visited Australia in '88 we saw "rocket" salad everywhere. Later we learned "rocket" was arugula which was just coming in vogue in the USA at the time. LUV it! And much *more nutritious than Iceburg*, I can't remember the last time I bought iceburg. I can't help but wonder what the cost of arugala is there? Just curious.


Rocket is $2 for a 60g bag. I don't like rocket so wouldn't buy it anyway. I tend to buy mignonette lettuce with the roots on and then plant it when nearly finished to get more out of it. Rabbit food has nearly doubled in price, that is something I have to have, ( she's fussy). I can at least pick her dandelions from the yard.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 12, 2022)

A few years back I grew Spring mix -- baby lettuce variety -- in a half whiskey barrel container. I got 2 harvests out of it. Seeded early spring and again about this time of year, late spring. We enjoyed fresh picked colorful salads well into the fall. 



> _Spring mix is a little lighter in texture and flavor than arugula. The exact mixture varies from brand to brand, but most spring mixes contain lettuces, arugula and spinach. Spring mix also tends to include “baby greens,” meaning they are picked just a few weeks after their seeds are planted. Not only are they more tender, they also have a bounty of nutrients, because the plant is still feeding them lots of energy for growth._


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## TheGecko (Jun 13, 2022)

I know that it seems like Covid has been around FOR-E-VER and now that it's over, everything should be back to 'normal'.  Except 1) Covid restrictions only just ended...for my state, it's only been 90 days.  2) There has been a huge amount of damage done to the 'supply chain' and it's going to take time...I figure as long as two years...before things come back to anything approaching 'normal', but it won't be the same.

As an example, @Catscankim mentioned that her store was out of milk and half & half...how is that possible?  It's like this...I have a 1000 head of dairy cows and better than half of my milk goes to supply milk to schools and restaurants and the rest goes to grocery stores and producers of dairy products.  Covid comes along and shuts down schools and restaurants.  Now all of a sudden I have milk that no one wants to buy...or rather no one can buy because the factories that produce the 8 oz cartons of milk for schools or those 12 gallon bags of milk for restaurants...it's not like they can just retool and start making gallon and quart containers because no one is going to want to buy a ton of cartons or can utilize those bags.  So I end up dumping half of my milk.  And of course, this brings up another problem...I have a 1000 dairy cows.  They need to eat, they need to poop and they need to be milked.  Only how am I supposed to keep feeding them, keep cleaning up their poop and keep milking them when I can longer afford to since I just lost over half of my income?  I can't.  So I am forced to start selling off my herd.  And since I'm not the only one, I'm not getting a lot of money for them.

So here we are...the schools are recently reopened, restaurants have reopened and everyone wants milk except...I only have 500 cows now.  And you can demand all you want, but my cows only give xx amount of milk per day.  And it's not like I can just go out and buy a bunch of new cows...there aren't any because 1) they don't grow on trees and 2) they aren't cheap because there are thousands of other dairies across the country also needing cows.  Maybe if I take out a third mortgage, I can pick up a cow or two or maybe I can get a few heifers...and then raise them to adult, and then breed them, and then wait until after the calf is born.  But it's going to be a couple of years before I have a 1000 dairy cows again.  And that's if my farm survived...a lot of them didn't.

Folks think that the employee shortage is do to 'low wages", but even as employers offer more money, there are still no takers.  I believe that it is because discovered what my ex-husband and I did when we had our second child...that by the time we subtracted costs of transportation, clothing, food, daycare and tax liability from my wages, and added in the costs of me staying home...there really wasn't that much left over, and someone else was raising our children 9 to 10 hours a day.  So I quit, and I did what women (and men) have always done over the centuries...I started "working" from home.  I started a small sewing business, I told Tupperware a couple of nights a week and I did daycare (just six kids and I kept my rates low).  I ended up making more money than I did working outside the home, the kids got a parent at home, everyone ate healthier and I wasn't exhausted at night.  

I drove past our local "farmer's market" on Saturday...it was packed.  I haven't seen so many vendors since I was in high school doing Flea Markets with my grandparents.  Unfortunately I didn't have time to stop, but from what I could see...there were lots of 'home crafts'.


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## melinda48 (Jun 13, 2022)

earlene said:


> Some of the current shortages got even worse when Russia invaded the Ukraine and the ongoing war is impacting the global supply chain.  We noticed it right away here. Added on top of the shortages from prolonged effects of CoVid and climate change, having 2 major exporters of wheat & other grains at war with each other, what can we expect?  In a global community, of which we are a part, these types of things impact all of us, eventually.
> 
> Yesterday I planted onions.  Red onions & white onions, my two favorite types of onions to buy.  It's not that I expect a shortage of onions (but who knows, right?), but the price of the bulbs was good & I am hoping they don't get too soggy with all the rain we keep having.  It rains here a lot in the summer; I'm still not used to it after living here for 17 years.
> 
> ...


And, of course, because we, here in the US can no longer extract adequate natural gas (which is required/critical for fertilizer production), our farmers are going to have smaller crops and so there will be less produce, less feed for cattle and other livestock, less food for people. Do you know that studying the effects man has on weather only began in 1850? There was no weather service before that time and, therefore, we are not clear on the long-term effects we are having (other than the obvious one - pollution). Here our government is pushing so hard for electric vehicles that we are looking forward to rolling blackouts this summer due to lack of natural gas; we do not yet have a way to recycle lithium batteries used in electric cars; cannot even recycle the wind power blades (they are being buried in the desert). We are decimating our earth mining lithium. And now, Russia is trying to take Ukraine which has disrupted not only the delivery of those things we need but is devastating two countries (Ukraine and Russia). I have several friends who are Russian but were born in Ukraine and who are saddened/embarrassed/crushed by what is going on. The world is a mess - This is a man-made problem alright but not in the way we may initially think.



Relle said:


> Rocket is $2 for a 60g bag. I don't like rocket so wouldn't buy it anyway. I tend to buy mignonette lettuce with the roots on and then plant it when nearly finished to get more out of it. Rabbit food has nearly doubled in price, that is something I have to have, ( she's fussy). I can at least pick her dandelions from the yard.
> View attachment 67216


I used to buy Iceburg when we were newly married and had no money to speak of -  it was always inexpensive. It has, however, been years since then. I love Arugula - love that it is peppery-tasting! I did no know that Rocket is Arugula. Cool post!



TheGecko said:


> I know that it seems like Covid has been around FOR-E-VER and now that it's over, everything should be back to 'normal'.  Except 1) Covid restrictions only just ended...for my state, it's only been 90 days.  2) There has been a huge amount of damage done to the 'supply chain' and it's going to take time...I figure as long as two years...before things come back to anything approaching 'normal', but it won't be the same.
> 
> As an example, @Catscankim mentioned that her store was out of milk and half & half...how is that possible?  It's like this...I have a 1000 head of dairy cows and better than half of my milk goes to supply milk to schools and restaurants and the rest goes to grocery stores and producers of dairy products.  Covid comes along and shuts down schools and restaurants.  Now all of a sudden I have milk that no one wants to buy...or rather no one can buy because the factories that produce the 8 oz cartons of milk for schools or those 12 gallon bags of milk for restaurants...it's not like they can just retool and start making gallon and quart containers because no one is going to want to buy a ton of cartons or can utilize those bags.  So I end up dumping half of my milk.  And of course, this brings up another problem...I have a 1000 dairy cows.  They need to eat, they need to poop and they need to be milked.  Only how am I supposed to keep feeding them, keep cleaning up their poop and keep milking them when I can longer afford to since I just lost over half of my income?  I can't.  So I am forced to start selling off my herd.  And since I'm not the only one, I'm not getting a lot of money for them.
> 
> ...


First, I am so sorry you have had to make these tough decisions. I think your post clearly explains the consequences of these short-sighted shut downs. Now we know that has Covid has reached endemic proportions and will always be with us (just like the flu), we are going to have to  (or we should) reexamine our response to these sorts of occurrences. People no  longer consider the complete chain of supply when they make decisions to “help” us.


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## melinda48 (Jun 13, 2022)

dibbles said:


> I live in MN. Our growing season is from May (if we're lucky) through September. I quit canning years ago, but I do freeze squash and tomatoes. I make big batches of stuffed peppers and freeze those, but that's about all I do other than the occasional jam. I'd love to be able to have something growing all year, but I will agree that there is nothing that can compare to a home-grown tomato.
> 
> I notice random shortages at the grocery store. It's been pasta for the last couple of months. About 2 months ago, there was no almond milk one week, and a very limited supply the next week. Since then it's been readily available again. I buy yogurt for both my hubby and myself. The choice of flavors he likes isn't always available.
> 
> But it's better than it was during the early pandemic days. At least here, anyway. And what used to cost $75 is now closer to $100.


I have been buying flour so that I can make pasta, bread, buns, etc.; rice. I do can and will can  more this year and hope it is enough. Our daughter had a friend who wants to learn to can and so I will help her learn. If we know how to “do things,” I think it is incumbent on us to teach others - especially now. Let’s all see how we can help each other get through this mess.


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## TheGecko (Jun 13, 2022)

melinda48 said:


> First, I am so sorry you have had to make these tough decisions. I think your post clearly explains the consequences of these short-sighted shut downs. Now we know that has Covid has reached endemic proportions and will always be with us (just like the flu), we are going to have to  (or we should) reexamine our response to these sorts of occurrences. People no  longer consider the complete chain of supply when they make decisions to “help” us.


Oh no no no...I don't really own dairy cattle, but I did grow up on a dairy farm and I understand the consequences.  I'm also an accountant and saw the consequences, good, bad and unintended, among our various clients.  

I don't think the shut-downs were necessarily short-sighted...Covid IS spread through contact and people were dying...we know that physical distancing worked because it did slow it down, but with all the political male bovine excrement that was taking place, calling it 'social distancing' and the heavy-handiness of all...Americans don't like being told what to do in the first place and it's worse when it's their own government.  People forgot that this country was founded in rebellion and I'm not just talking about our forefathers, but those that came before them.  My father's ancestor came to the "American Colonies" in the mid-1600...not that he had a lot of choice, he was a bit of a black-sheep...his family sent him here.  Even the Pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower were 'rebels'.

Even had our government been in complete agreement and had the full cooperation of our population, it wouldn't have changed the supply chain issues because we have become dependent on imports.  At least half of the stuff (probably more) that comes INTO this country comes from China...and they were the first to be hit with Covid.  We'll never know just how bad in was there, but common sense says it was really bad...not only were they the first hit, but they have four times the population.  

But anyhoo...folks think that there is just an endless supply of stuff sitting in warehouses, but the reality is is that stuff is going out as fast as it is coming in; there really aren't any warehouses...storage facilities if you will...just 'distribution centers'.  When you go to the grocery store...what you see is pretty much what there is...at best there is a 3-day supply.  You go to Home Depot or Lowe's...same thing.  You go to Auto Zone or Pep Boys...same thing.  You go to JC Penny's or Macy's...same thing.  You go to Costco or Sam's Club...same thing.  You to your local furniture store or appliance store...same thing.  You go to Office Depot/Max or Staples...same thing.

My story of the dairy farm...it was the same for everything because everything is connected.  There is absolutely no reason why this country cannot be self-sufficient, in fact, once upon a time we were a major exporter.  But we got lazy and stupid and greedy.  You'd think we had learned a hard lesson these past two years, but we have learned nothing other than to beat our breasts and cry "oh woe is me" as we blame everyone else but ourselves for the fine mess that we are in.



melinda48 said:


> I have been buying flour so that I can make pasta, bread, buns, etc.; rice. I do can and will can  more this year and hope it is enough. Our daughter had a friend who wants to learn to can and so I will help her learn. If we know how to “do things,” I think it is incumbent on us to teach others - especially now. Let’s all see how we can help each other get through this mess.


Unfortunately I have no real room for a garden, but now that the Farmer's Markets are back, I plan to get into canning this Fall.

I agree about teaching others...we've lost so much information because we have gotten into the habit of just being able to buy anything we want from the store.  I know how to can and dehydrate.  I can sew, loom knit, needle knit and crochet.  I know how to grow food, but am a bit light on foraging.  I know basic first aid and CPR and some home remedies.  I can cook/bake just about anything from "scratch".  I can't shoot Bambi or chop the head off Chicken Little, but I can dress them.  I can milk a cow and make butter and cheese.  Oh...and I can make soap.


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## melinda48 (Jun 13, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> Oh no no no...I don't really own dairy cattle, but I did grow up on a dairy farm and I understand the consequences.  I'm also an accountant and saw the consequences, good, bad and unintended, among our various clients.
> 
> I don't think the shut-downs were necessarily short-sighted...Covid IS spread through contact and people were dying...we know that physical distancing worked because it did slow it down, but with all the political male bovine excrement that was taking place, calling it 'social distancing' and the heavy-handiness of all...Americans don't like being told what to do in the first place and it's worse when it's their own government.  People forgot that this country was founded in rebellion and I'm not just talking about our forefathers, but those that came before them.  My father's ancestor came to the "American Colonies" in the mid-1600...not that he had a lot of choice, he was a bit of a black-sheep...his family sent him here.  Even the Pilgrims who came over on the Mayflower were 'rebels'.
> 
> ...


Excellent points! You are right on regarding our dependence on foreign goods and we can and must change that dynamic!


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## earlene (Jun 13, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> When we visited Australia in '88 we saw "rocket" salad everywhere. Later we learned "rocket" was arugula which was just coming in vogue in the USA at the time. LUV it! And much *more nutritious than Iceburg*, I can't remember the last time I bought iceburg. I can't help but wonder what the cost of arugala is there? Just curious.


While in Italy, arugula was translated as 'rocket' also, but the Italian word is rucola, so the translation certainly made sense, but it was the same in Prague as well.  I did not realize the word was used more globally.

I eat arugula frequently as it is possibly my favorite salad green.  I love that peppery flavor.  It is not expensive, IMO, but it depends on availability, as well as one's perspective on what expensive is to one's pocketbook.  It is a seasonal green of course, harder to find in winter in this part of the country.  I used to grow it on in pots on my deck in California so that I could add it to sandwiches or salads anytime I wanted.  I could grow it year round there.  I actually have some growing in a pot on my back deck right now, but it bolts very fast in this heat, so I don't generally grow it here since it is readily available in stores here.

I prefer romaine lettuce over iceberg lettuce, but either one is good for bread replacement in making a 'sandwich'.  When I stopped eating bread (to loose weight) I used romaine more often than icerberg for that purpose.  I still prefer wrapping certain sandwich items in romaine over using bread.  Even peanut butter tastes good on romaine.

My husband said he wanted to start making bread after his retirement, but has not started that yet.  I used to love making bread.  Kneading bread by hand was one of my favorite things to do, and I adore the odor of yeast as the bread rises.  I used to make pasta, too; not as much fun as breadmaking, IMO, but certainly not difficult and I can easily do it again if pasta becomes hard to find.


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## TheGecko (Jun 13, 2022)

melinda48 said:


> Excellent points! You are right on regarding our dependence on foreign goods and we can and must change that dynamic!


There are simply solutions, but they aren't politically correct.

1)  We need to close our borders.  I know that that isn't going to go over well since we are a nation of immigrants, but the simple fact is...we can't take care of the people we already have.  And we have become less a 'land of opportunity' and more a 'land of hand-outs'.  Fences make for good neighbors and we need to build them; not just on our southern border, but northern as well.  Bring our service men and women home and have them guard our borders.

2)  Because we have closed the barn too late, we need a REAL path to citizenship...NOT that BS 'dreamer' crap.  Keep the criteria simple...you must be able to speak English, you cannot be a burden on society, you must be current on your taxes, you cannot have a criminal history.  And for anyone who doesn't think any of this is 'fair'...explain exactly why because I don't think any of these four items are unreasonable?  And anyone who has served honorably is granted automatic citizenship (providing they don't have a criminal history).  

3)  We need to amend the 14th Amendment, Section 1 to say that anyone born in the US must have at least one US Citizen as a parent in order to be granted citizenship.  

4)  We need to support our farmers.  It is absolutely criminal that those who feed this nation often cannot feed their own families.

5)  We need to bring back manufacturing.  "Made in the USA" should be the rule, NOT the exception.  If you're an American company that is manufacturing something overseas that can be manufactured here, then you get to pay VAT on your products.

6)  We need to end the "too big to fail" mentality and quit bailing out big business.  If they fail...yeah it's going to suck for a short time because folks are going to be out of work, but the big boys won't be making any money either.  Honestly, how many different kinds of vehicles do we really need?  And we need to stop with all the "special considerations" that cities and states give to businesses to open shop there.  Oh sure...jobs, but at what cost because those considerations aren't free?

7)  Instead of building new, how about repairing what we already have?  There are hundreds of thousands of homes sitting empty that just need some work, how about offering grants to folks willing to put in the work to make a house a home?  If you have two girls or two boys...they don't need their own bedrooms...the Brandy Bunch had six kids and two bedrooms.

8)  Term limits.

9)  Flat tax.  10% of your gross income (business or personal) goes to the Feds and 5% to the States...EVERYBODY pays.  No exemptions, no deductions, no loopholes, no returns...EVERYBODY pays.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 13, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> 9) Flat tax. 10% of your gross income (business or personal) goes to the Feds and 5% to the States...EVERYBODY pays. No exemptions, no deductions, no loopholes, no returns...EVERYBODY pays.


I like this one. Works great! When we lived in Hong Kong everyone, personal or business, paid 15% Flat Tax and everyone had money left over to afford the basics plus donate to charities or bet on the horses at the Jockey Club which was one of the biggest donors to the less fortunate. LOL The juicy upside of this format was the form was a single piece of paper that didn't need a pamphlet guide or tax advisor or CPA to figure it out!!!

The only problem is, if it ever became law, it would put a large segment of the population out of business!!!


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## Catscankim (Jun 13, 2022)

Oh my gosh, so many good points to respond to, I am sorry if I don't mention you in the response.

Lettuce is hard to grow here. I did buy a florida-friendly arugula that I have yet to plant. Hopefully it takes well with the heat. I also found a few different things that are adapted to our heat. Generally tomatoes do not do well, I have found a spot and a few raised self-watering beds that seem to be suiting the northern veggies fine: cucumbers, tomatoes etc. i want to do corn, but corn seems so daunting to me for some reason. Although I have lots of packets of seeds.

Overall from my research, it is always best to grow native for your area. And down here it is a lot of fruits which seem exotic, but it is just the right climate: bananas, mango, papayas, etc. I got creative and built a raised bed to put other non native stuff in, and am building an arbor to keep it somewhat shady to keep out the sun a bit. The arbor is going to have a passion flower/fruit vine on it so I think that will be enough to cool it off a bit in the bed . So far my cukes and tomatoes are doing fine in my partial shady spot of my back yard, but I just recently discovered Everglades tomatoes, which are almost a nuisance, but will produce a large crop year round with no attention what so ever.

Also the tomatillos and peppers, but one cannot survive on salsas alone LOL. @Zany_in_CO  Potatoes and sw. potatoes do excellent around here, which is why I was upset that I can't find slips. Sweet potatoes should be fine from the market, but regular potatoes have a big possibility of spreading blight...which will knock out everything...and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Its just what I have read, so if it is possible I would love to hear about it.

I have a 1/4 acre plot, which might not seem huge to some of you (or even enormous to others), but I come from a city with row houses and a 9'x3' lawn in the front that usually contained our little grassy area and maybe one tomato plant in a pot. So looking at my big (to me) back yard is daunting as far as planning, plus all the differences between growing up north and growing down here. I need to learn to grow food for sustenance.

I know how to can, but the extent of my experience is jams. With my cucumbers I plan on doing some pickling this year. I'm not a big meat eater, nor do I eat eggs straight up, so I don't think that would be an issue if the grid shut down.

When I finally get a fence, which is hard to find a contractor right now, even offering 100% cash payment upfront, then I can do some more planning for my garden.

@earlene I am a little younger than you, so I don't remember gas being that cheap, but I do know that I moved down here in 2007 from Philadelphia, and it only cost me exactly $80 in gas, and that included going way past my intended residence to my sisters house an hour more south, then back again to my apartment in the morning. Since I work an hour away, and I have a truck...the gas is killing me right now. Last year I got to work and exclaimed (expletive) gas cost me $50 to fill up my truck. Now its around $80... almost twice a week. Thankfully I have a smaller truck.

Lets not get started on our trash issues. Our trash service used to pick up twice a week and once a week for recycle. I know we are spoiled with the twice a week, but we pay for it. Now we don't know when they are going to come, if at all. Last week they picked up my Monday trash on Wednesday, then came back on thursday for our next scheduled pickup...like nobody had trash out anymore. I keep freezing smelly stuff like left over chicken carcass, so it doesn't attract anything, but then you don't know when to put it out.


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## TheGecko (Jun 13, 2022)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I like this one. Works great! When we lived in Hong Kong everyone, personal or business, paid 15% Flat Tax and everyone had money left over to afford the basics plus donate to charities or bet on the horses at the Jockey Club which was one of the biggest donors to the less fortunate. LOL The juicy upside of this format was the form was a single piece of paper that didn't need a pamphlet guide or tax advisor or CPA to figure it out!!!
> 
> The only problem is, if it ever became law, it would put a large segment of the population out of business!!!


Not as much as you think, but it will change the business landscape.  We'll see and end to million dollar paychecks, corporate jets and big expense accounts and I think we'll see a resurgence of the 'middle class'.


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## Catscankim (Jun 13, 2022)

Oh, and what kinda crappola is this?... Our county forbids that we collect rain water, unless it comes from the rooftop and out of a gutter into an approved collecting system. Seriously? The only water we are allowed to collect is dirty water.  My house used to have well water, but they put in city water back in the late 90's, and took out all of the well water access, which was the exclusive water around here at the time. I guess it might have seemed to be ok in the 90's, but its really just not ok. I could water my plants for free from well water, but instead I pay city water and sewage on city water.

I still have the connections for well water, and somebody said that I can hook it back up, but would probably cost $2k upfront. I don't know if I want that cost. Maybe, I dunno.

I don't use water in excess. No irrigation/sprinkler system. I carry buckets out to water my plants and I am the only person living here and I let my grass go brown in the winter, yet my bill is almost $200/month sometimes.


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## Bill S. (Jun 14, 2022)

melinda48 said:


> And, of course, because we, here in the US can no longer extract adequate natural gas (which is required/critical for fertilizer production), our farmers are going to have smaller crops and so there will be less produce, less feed for cattle and other livestock, less food for people. Do you know that studying the effects man has on weather only began in 1850? There was no weather service before that time and, therefore, we are not clear on the long-term effects we are having (other than the obvious one - pollution). Here our government is pushing so hard for electric vehicles that we are looking forward to rolling blackouts this summer due to lack of natural gas; we do not yet have a way to recycle lithium batteries used in electric cars; cannot even recycle the wind power blades (they are being buried in the desert). We are decimating our earth mining lithium. And now, Russia is trying to take Ukraine which has disrupted not only the delivery of those things we need but is devastating two countries (Ukraine and Russia). I have several friends who are Russian but were born in Ukraine and who are saddened/embarrassed/crushed by what is going on. The world is a mess - This is a man-made problem alright but not in the way we may initially think.
> 
> 
> I used to buy Iceburg when we were newly married and had no money to speak of -  it was always inexpensive. It has, however, been years since then. I love Arugula - love that it is peppery-tasting! I did no know that Rocket is Arugula. Cool post!
> ...


I checked current statistics on natural gas production (reproduced below), and it is not true that the US is suffering from a shortage of natural gas production. It is as high today as it has ever been.

Natural gas explained 
Where our natural gas comes from​
The United States now produces nearly all of the natural gas that it uses​U.S. dry natural gas production in 2020 was about 33.5 trillion cubic feet (Tcf), an average of about 91.5 billion cubic feet per day and the second-highest annual amount recorded. Most of the production increases since 2005 are the result of horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing techniques, notably in shale, sandstone, carbonate, and other tight geologic formations. Natural gas is produced from onshore and offshore natural gas and oil wells and from coal beds. In 2020, U.S. dry natural gas production was about 10% greater than U.S. total natural gas consumption.
U.S. dry natural gas production in 2020 was 0.4 Tcf lower than in 2019 because of a decline in drilling activity related to low natural gas and oil prices, which was largely the result of a drop in demand resulting from the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, as well as increased recovery of natural gas plant liquids from marketed natural gas.
Five of the 34 natural gas producing states accounted for about 69% of total U.S. dry natural gas production in 2020.






						Where our natural gas comes from - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
					

Where natural gas is found and produced, including shale gas and tight gas and a list of the top 5 natural gas producing states.




					www.eia.gov
				





Three producing regions drove U.S. natural gas production in 2021​





*Source: *U.S. Energy Information Administration, _Drilling Productivity Report_, _Monthly Crude Oil and Natural Gas Production Report_, _Natural Gas Monthly_
In 2021, U.S. natural gas production increased 2% and reached 118.8 billion cubic feet per day (Bcf/d) on a monthly basis in December 2021, the highest on record. Three regions drove this growth: Appalachia, Permian, and Haynesville, which collectively accounted for 59% of gross withdrawals in 2021 compared with 24% in 2011.

We measure U.S. natural gas production in this analysis as gross withdrawals (the most comprehensive measure of natural gas production). Our _Drilling Productivity Report_ (DPR) measures natural gas production in selected onshore regions.


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## TheGecko (Jun 14, 2022)

Bill S. said:


> I checked current statistics on natural gas production (reproduced below), and it is not true that the US is suffering from a shortage of natural gas production. It is as high today as it has ever been.


First of all...you don't need to yell at people.

Second, you're wrong and you're wrong because you weren't listening and your supporting documentation clearly shows this.  Just because we are producing more, doesn't mean that we producing enough.  

@melinda48 said:  "we, here in the US can no longer extract adequate natural gas "

This statement is true. According to a May 2nd article on Reuters U.S. Natural Gas Production Growth Wanes as Need Arises, the reason it has slowed is "because it has become increasingly difficult for energy firms to build new pipes to move gas out of the Pennsylvania, Ohio and West Virginia region."  

Again, the discussion was NOT about how MUCH the US produces, but that is inadequate to meet the current demands.


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## Catscankim (Jun 14, 2022)

Bill S. said:


> I checked current statistics on natural gas production (reproduced below), and it is not true that the US is suffering from a shortage of natural gas production. It is as high today as it has ever been.​​Natural gas explained​Where our natural gas comes from​
> The United States now produces nearly all of the natural gas that it uses​U.S. dry natural gas production in 2020 was about 33.5 trillion cubic feet (Tcf), an average of about 91.5 billion cubic feet per day and the second-highest annual amount recorded. Most of the production increases since 2005 are the result of horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing techniques, notably in shale, sandstone, carbonate, and other tight geologic formations. Natural gas is produced from onshore and offshore natural gas and oil wells and from coal beds. In 2020, U.S. dry natural gas production was about 10% greater than U.S. total natural gas consumption.
> U.S. dry natural gas production in 2020 was 0.4 Tcf lower than in 2019 because of a decline in drilling activity related to low natural gas and oil prices, which was largely the result of a drop in demand resulting from the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, as well as increased recovery of natural gas plant liquids from marketed natural gas.
> Five of the 34 natural gas producing states accounted for about 69% of total U.S. dry natural gas production in 2020.
> ...


Did you write and do all that research, or was this an article?


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## dibbles (Jun 14, 2022)

Catscankim said:


> I saw oranges at the supermarket for $4 each.


I went grocery shopping today and looked at the prices of oranges here. They were about $2/lb in bags or $1 each for small ones. I don’t know where they were grown, but definitely not local. It’s crazy they would cost so much more in FL!


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## Relle (Jun 15, 2022)

I bought a small punnet of cherry tomatoes (just so that I could have some tomatoes) here this morning and the unit price per kg worked out at $13.95 per kg and there were more expensive ones than that ( they were the cheapest.


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## Bill S. (Jun 16, 2022)

Catscankim said:


> Did you write and do all that research, or was this an article?


I found gas statistics from within the industry and the US government, and shared that information. I believe I provided the links to the sources too.



TheGecko said:


> First of all...you don't need to yell at people.
> 
> Second, you're wrong and you're wrong because you weren't listening and your supporting documentation clearly shows this.  Just because we are producing more, doesn't mean that we producing enough.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure I wasn't yelling. I apologize if I came across that way. (I think I figured out why you think I was yelling. I just copied and pasted the article that I referenced and the formatting the source used was carried over. They used bold fonts and my comment carried that bold font over. I would have had to strip away all the formatting to prevent that and it never occurred to me that anyone would see bold font as an "ALL CAPS yelling" kind of situation.)
We are producing natural gas at the highest level or second highest level ever in the US this year and in the last couple years, and we export natural gas. I'm not sure how we are not producing enough to meet our demand if we are exporting natural gas? I would think there would be no exports in that case. Or domestic users are not willing to pay as much as foreign users, and that's just normal supply and demand. Perhaps you can clarify that for me. I read the Reuters article and it is saying that worldwide demand has soared in response to Russian invasion of Ukraine and Europe looking to replace Russian natural gas. That is an acute problem and not one that could be solved tomorrow if the pipelines existed. Our pipelines are adequate today for our use, but not for that increased demand forecasted for the next few years. It is also worth noting that many European countries that want LNG have no LNG terminals. They don't currently have the infrastructure to receive American LNG if it were available to them. It's complicated with many factors, but pipeline limitations are not the problem today.

     U.S. Natural Gas Exports (Million Cubic Feet)
U.S. Natural Gas Exports  (Million Cubic Feet)

The US is the #3 world producer of nitrogen fertilizer and has had 4.2% average growth rate year over year for 5 years. It did decline 0.4% last year I see. That may have been a Covid factor, but I don't know. Again, I don't see that as evidence of a shortage of natural gas if we are #3 in the world. Maybe it's just me.

Since 2014, United States Nitrogen Fertilizer Production jumped by 4.2% year on year. With 11,217,874.09 Metric Tons in 2019, the country was ranked number 3 comparing other countries in Nitrogen Fertilizer Production. United States is overtaken by India, which was ranked number 2 with 13,601,710.71 Metric Tons and is followed by Russia at 10,611,761.82 Metric Tons. China ranked the highest with 34,023,626.73 Metric Tons in 2019, +3.9% compared to 2018

     Top Countries in Nitrogen Fertilizer Production
Top countries for Nitrogen Fertilizer Production



TheGecko said:


> There are simply solutions, but they aren't politically correct.
> 
> 1)  We need to close our borders.  I know that that isn't going to go over well since we are a nation of immigrants, but the simple fact is...we can't take care of the people we already have.  And we have become less a 'land of opportunity' and more a 'land of hand-outs'.  Fences make for good neighbors and we need to build them; not just on our southern border, but northern as well.  Bring our service men and women home and have them guard our borders.
> 
> ...


I never want to see a flat tax and never want everyone to pay income tax when some people make so little money. I do not approve of regressive taxation.

Is it that we cannot or do not take care of the people we already have? I assert that we do not, but we could if we wanted to. It is a political choice. Ask yourself if Congress would take care of all Americans that are in need in the hypothetical case of zero immigration. The answer is certainly no they would not.

I like birthright citizenship as it stands. Born here = citizen is fine with me.
Support our farmers sounds good. What exactly does that mean? Support agribusiness with subsidies? Give family farmers cash supplements? Only buy American grown foods? Gov't limits on products markups? The devil is in the details.


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## Relle (Jun 17, 2022)

Today, punnets of strawberries are $12 , so guess what - not buying strawberries. So, if you want inflated prices come to Australia we have plenty.

Petrol is $2.29 a litre at the moment, just makes you want to go for a drive doesn't it.


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## Jersey Girl (Jun 17, 2022)

TheGecko said:


> There are simply solutions, but they aren't politically correct.
> 
> 1)  We need to close our borders.  I know that that isn't going to go over well since we are a nation of immigrants, but the simple fact is...we can't take care of the people we already have.  And we have become less a 'land of opportunity' and more a 'land of hand-outs'.  Fences make for good neighbors and we need to build them; not just on our southern border, but northern as well.  Bring our service men and women home and have them guard our borders.
> 
> ...


All I can say is AMEN to this!


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## earlene (Jun 18, 2022)

Bill S. said:


> I'm pretty sure I wasn't yelling. I apologize if I came across that way. (I think I figured out why you think I was yelling. I just copied and pasted the article that I referenced and the formatting the source used was carried over. They used bold fonts and my comment carried that bold font over. I would have had to strip away all the formatting to prevent that and it never occurred to me that anyone would see bold font as an "ALL CAPS yelling" kind of situation.)
> 
> 
> See #11 in SMF Message Board Rules


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## Lin19687 (Jun 18, 2022)

Catscankim said:


> florida is the biggest cattle state, even above texas?








						Ranking Of States With The Most Cattle
					

Texas had the most cattle in the United States in 2022 followed by Nebraska and Kansas.



					beef2live.com
				





melinda48 said:


> recycle the wind power blades


We are trying though 


melinda48 said:


> US can no longer extract adequate natural gas (which is required/critical for fertilizer production)


And many other things like Electricity.......... but the impact on the earth is even worse.  And talk to some of the people that live in the area that they are doing the extracting.  It's no fun to be able to drink your water because you can light it on fire and the polluted extracting water is just dumped into the ground so it pollutes the fish and wildlife.


melinda48 said:


> we do not yet have a way to recycle lithium batteries used in electric cars;


They have been recycling Li batteries for years, just not the EV batteries in large scale yet but they are working on it and many are being recycled.  Here is one place that is starting here in Massachusetts Mass. startup transforms old electric car batteries into better-than-new ones


TheGecko said:


> My story of the dairy farm...it was the same for everything because everything is connected. There is absolutely no reason why this country cannot be self-sufficient, in fact, once upon a time we were a major exporter. But we got lazy and stupid and greedy. You'd think we had learned a hard lesson these past two years, but we have learned nothing other than to beat our breasts and cry "oh woe is me" as we blame everyone else but ourselves for the fine mess that we are in.


Bingo !

Earlene, he said he copied and pasted from a site.  Not sure if it was noted by them when they did it but I can say that I have done that myself.  And where it didn't show that on my screen that it was bolded and huge, it did when it posted and was a bear to fix.  I didn't take it as he was yelling because I understood while reading that it was from another source. 


There are many assets that lead to the way that inflation has hit today. and covid really is the base part of that... everything else spiraled from there.
Let's just hope that things can get better going forward with better vaccine so people can work and be/feel safer.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jun 18, 2022)

@Lin19687 I learned a few things today.      THANK YOU!!!


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## TashaBird (Jun 18, 2022)

Such a great thread! I had just invested in all the supplies and started learning to make bath bombs when I heard through the grapevine that a CA shortage was coming. I drove 2 hours to a winery supply house and bought 3 50lb bags for $85 each. My hubs thought I was nuts. The same supply store now sells them for $165, and that is considered CHEAP! The price folks are paying online to have it shipped to them is (was) up to $250!!! Insane! There is some sign that it’s going down. So, I’m trying to stay hopeful.


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## TheGecko (Jun 19, 2022)

Bill S. said:


> I never want to see a flat tax and never want everyone to pay income tax when some people make so little money. I do not approve of regressive taxation.
> 
> Is it that we cannot or do not take care of the people we already have? I assert that we do not, but we could if we wanted to. It is a political choice. Ask yourself if Congress would take care of all Americans that are in need in the hypothetical case of zero immigration. The answer is certainly no they would not.
> 
> ...


A flat tax is not regressive...the tax rate doesn't change.  Unlike our current progress tax system in which the more you make the more you pay.  I worked my butt off to get where I am today, why should I have to pay more?  

It's not just about foreign aid, immigration or illegal immigration, which by-the-way depending on who you talk to, runs between $104 BILLION to $354 BILLION dollars a year.  How many school lunches would that money buy?  How much money gets wasted in 'hand-outs'?  When I went back to school ten years ago, I noted that about half of the 2-year degree programs the local community college offered were ones that used to be taught in high school so that when kids graduated, they had skills and knowledge to enter the workforce.  40 years ago the age of the average minimum wage worker was 16 to 24, today it's 35.  

Just like with manufacturing, we shouldn't be importing anything that we cannot produce ourselves.  We import Beef and Pork, we import dairy products, we import grains and feed, vegetable oils, fruits and vegetables, nuts, cotton, tobacco, wine, malt beverages, distilled spirts, cut flowers and nursery stock, sugar, cocoa, coffee.  In 2021 the US IMPORTED $2.07 BILLION potatoes, we exported $1.9 Billion...why are we importing potatoes?


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## earlene (Jun 20, 2022)

I worked for many years and paid taxes according to my tax bracket during that time, as IMO it should be.  IMO, living in a society carries with it the obligation to support the society in whatever way necessary and taxes is one of the ways the society is supported.  I have never felt that the government is taking my money away from me or that taxes are a burden. It is my belief that over the course of any person's life in the society, they may have a need for the services that taxes pay for, and that at some other time in their life they will also have enough of an abundance to share with others in need.

I know I needed help at a period in my life when I was young and my children were very young and may again when I am very old (I don't know for sure, but it may happen again before I die), and eventually I no longer needed help and became able to help others both via taxes on my income and property as well as volunteer work, hands-on and remotely.  It is my obligation as a member of this society and as a human being.  And I do not regret any of it because I know I am helping others in similar ways that I was helped or in ways I know many others do need help and bolstering to live more fully, more safely, in better health, better nutrition, less fear, more security and hopefully with dignity.

That is my opinion and I have no regrets that this is how our society works.  Could the taxing system be improved? Certainly everything about everything in this world can or could be improved, but IMO I consider it an important part of the process to the advancement of a society that every member thereof participate with integrity and care for all members of the society without putting oneself or any members above any or all others.

I look at other societies/nations in the world and see some quite effective methods of running their governments, taxation methods, social services, restrictions (human rights, internet privacy rights, weapons, food products, voting methods, laws, etc.), enforcement thereof and so forth, and I find myself impressed with some of them as quite attractive methods in that they take exceptional care to provide a quality of life for all of their citizenry in ways I believe look more fair than we do ourselves in our own society (the one in which I live).  Is any one of them 100% perfect?  Probably not, I don't think that is the important thing, though.  What I believe is important is that the methods by which a society has reached the place where they are today.  IMO, there are conscientious and caring people with integrity who made those things happen, rather than people who put themselves and their own personal interests in the forefront, which sadly happens in so many societies in the course of human evolution, both now and in the past.


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