# Preservatives - Your opinions



## FerrisWheel (Aug 11, 2015)

How many of you guys use a preservative(s) in your products that are 100% oil/butter based?

I have made a few now and I am starting to think that realistically they are needed.

No one can ensure a product is 100% microbe free further more all it takes is a sneeze, cough, humid atmosphere, wet/sweaty hands, etc ONCE when using your product and you have a nice petri dish of nasties.

My issue is how do people go about dealing with making a natural product vs. a safe one?

I have seen many natural, preservative free products on the market that advertise they work best on wet skin after a bath or shower!  Surely this is gonna result in water getting in the pot eventually and lead to bad things.

Thoughts?  Advice?  Pointers?

Interested from both sides of the fence- for and against.

Thanks,

Ferris.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 11, 2015)

Personally, I think anyone selling a natural product like that is dangerous, either from lack of thought or from outright dishonesty. 

1% of a product being a preservative,  then looking at how much of the product is observed by our skin.........my view is that I would rather smear that on me than a handful of natural mould and so on.


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## Saponista (Aug 11, 2015)

I totally agree with EG


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## shunt2011 (Aug 11, 2015)

I agree with the others.  Not adding a preservative is not an option to me.  I would rather be safe.  I would hate to cause someone an infection though it's not likely. Not worth the risk.

If you scroll to the bottom of this post you will see other threads on this topic.  It has been discusses numerous times for sure.


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## FerrisWheel (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks for the replies so far guys.

Just take a look around the natural skincare sections of websites - particularly body butters/moisturizing products lots of them use the "no preservatives" as a unique selling point.

I suffered BADLY from infected eczema a few years back and so worry if my product was used on some very dry skin it might cause someone to go through that misery.

Natural product makers - what is your approach?  How have your customers reacted to the use of preservatives?  The natural beauty world has done a brilliant job of vilifying such chemicals.


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## shunt2011 (Aug 11, 2015)

The sad part is many likely use preservative and just don't list them.  Which in turn is very deceptive.   Just like those who hawk their products as all natural and use FO's and Micas for colorants.


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## cmzaha (Aug 11, 2015)

I have to admit I do not preserve my oil/butter based balms but have them clearly labeled to not introduce water in the products and do not freeze the product. I do however preserve liquid soap, shaving soap, cream soap, and of course emulsified lotions. People here would not buy a lip balm with preservative. I also have severe eczema, use my balms regularly on the dry cracked areas without ever having a problem. I do sell mine with a little plastic spatula and recommend cleaning the spatula with alcohol between uses


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## Dahila (Aug 11, 2015)

I do not sale but can not imagine having anything not preserved.  I usually use Germal liquid plus,  Phononip ,  Tinosan the last one only in dark container it is sensitive to light


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 11, 2015)

FerrisWheel said:


> Thanks for the replies so far guys.
> 
> Just take a look around the natural skincare sections of websites - particularly body butters/moisturizing products lots of them use the "no preservatives" as a unique selling point.
> 
> ...




You sound like you're selling or looking to do so straight away, so you have to face the options as they stand - 

use preservative but pretend that you don't 

Don't use it and tell people to use the product in a short time period and keep it in the fridge

Use preservative and explain to any one who questions it why it can be actually healthier than not using it 

Option one is unethical at best. Option two runs you the risk of being sued by someone who waited too long/didn't store properly and gets a load of e.coli in the eye! I would go with option three and let the customer choose based on good information


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## Dorymae (Aug 11, 2015)

When you sell you need to think further than _what did I put into the product_ and think about _how could someone possibly use this product._ If the answer involves having the product near water where it could become contaminated always use a preservative.


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## BeeMaiden (Aug 11, 2015)

I am interested in your definition of preservative. I put vitamin e in all my lip balms and lotion bars. Coconut oil also has natural antibacterial properties. Also various essential oils are anti bacterial.  If something has no water in it, will it still go bad?
I chose not to make liquid lotion because the stuff I made with a friend molded


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## Trix (Aug 11, 2015)

BeeMaiden, vitamin E is an anti-oxidant not a preservative. It is good in that things like lip balms are extremely close to the nose and once they oxidise we will notice quite fast that foul smell.

Vitamin e delays that,but if there is water in the formula, only a preservative will avoid it. 
Scientists would never put anything like a preservative in a product, unless they need it....and lotions needed. I think the 'preservative free' campaign and fear lingering of preservatives is kind of irresponsible.

You are doing the right thing by researching first before making your own decision so good for you


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## IrishLass (Aug 11, 2015)

Like Carol, I don't use any preservatives in my anhydrous (butter/oil-only) body butters either. I don't sell, btw. I make them for my own personal use and for a few trustworthy family members, and we treat them with the utmost respect, i.e., never dipping fingers- be they wet or dry- into the body butter, ever., etc... We use a cleaned cosmetic spatula each time. For what it's worth, like Carol, we've never had any bad issues develop with it.

I do preserve my lotions and emulsified butters, though. I use a synergistic combo of phenonip and tetrasodium EDTA for those.

If I ever decided to sell, though, I do believe I'd use preservatives in my anhydrous butters just in case. 

Beemaiden, when we talk of preservatives, we mean those that actively kill nasties that want to attack a formula- yeasts, molds, bacteria, etc.. Vitamin E is not a preservative, but an antioxidant. It basically helps oils stay fresher, but it won't actively kill nasties in a water-based formula. Neither will coconut oil either. It might have enough anti-bacterial potency in it to keep itself fresh for a time, but it's not going to actively kill the nasties that want to attack a water-based as a whole. The same with essential oils. They may help to a certain extent with some things, but they are not strong enough to actively kill the kind of nasties that want to invade a water-based formula. They would be overwhelmed.


IrishLass


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## FerrisWheel (Aug 11, 2015)

BeeMaiden said:


> I am interested in your definition of preservative. I put vitamin e in all my lip balms and lotion bars. Coconut oil also has natural antibacterial properties. Also various essential oils are anti bacterial.  If something has no water in it, will it still go bad?
> I chose not to make liquid lotion because the stuff I made with a friend molded ��



My definition of a preservative is an anti-microbial additive such as the dreaded parabens/formaldehydes that have been presented as the devils juice by the media/natural community.

Vitamin E is not anti-microbial nor are things such as Coconut Oil enough to protect from various nasties growing on/in them.

I am again thankful for everyones response so far.

It looks like I will go down the preservative route.  But do worry about the impact it will have on sales.  As others have said already- people won't touch stuff sometimes just because they hear preservatives.

I simply cannot guarantee that people won't use the oils in less than ideal conditions.  I also cannot blame them for that really.  I want my product to be safe.


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## cmzaha (Aug 11, 2015)

I do sell so I make sure it is stated clearly to keep from introducing water into the product. I do not recommend refrigeration or freezing since it can introduce moisture into the product. All precautions are taken with labeling. We do need to learn to take some responsibility as customers to follow instructions. I use preservative free eye drops in individual vials, but I could get more than one use. In my opinion if I decide to keep the opened vial and use it another day I accept the responsibility it is was labeled single use only. If I get an eye infection from reusing the vial that is my fault not the manufacturer.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 11, 2015)

"...Vitamin E is not a preservative.... Neither will coconut oil either.... The same with essential oils. They may help to a certain extent with some things, but they are not strong enough to actively kill the kind of nasties that want to invade a water-based formula...."

And ditto for honey. Honey is SELF preserving if it is properly cured to a safe sugar content. Once you add anything to dilute the honey, including plain water, then honey will support microbial cooties as happily as any other sugary syrup. If that weren't true, my DH wouldn't be able to make mead!


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## KristaY (Aug 11, 2015)

FerrisWheel said:


> It looks like I will go down the preservative route. But do worry about the impact it will have on sales. As others have said already- people won't touch stuff sometimes just because they hear preservatives.
> 
> I simply cannot guarantee that people won't use the oils in less than ideal conditions. I also cannot blame them for that really. I want my product to be safe.


 
My best recommendation is to have an answer ready for people that question your use of preservative. Explain what you use and why it's needed. Something like "it's formaldehyde, paraben and phthalate free and I use it at less than 1%. Anytime you mix oils and water together it will grow germs so must be preserved for your safety" or whatever. Usually when people get clear, concise info given in a confident manner, they're okay with the product.


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## FerrisWheel (Aug 12, 2015)

KristaY said:


> My best recommendation is to have an answer ready for people that question your use of preservative. Explain what you use and why it's needed. Something like "it's formaldehyde, paraben and phthalate free and I use it at less than 1%. Anytime you mix oils and water together it will grow germs so must be preserved for your safety" or whatever. Usually when people get clear, concise info given in a confident manner, they're okay with the product.



Thanks for all your help.

It will be taken on board.

I will perhaps offer pure shea and/or cocoa butter as an alternative "pure" no additive alternative to my balms, etc.  All pointers and advise is a big help so thanks to all!


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## shunt2011 (Aug 12, 2015)

I can say that I've never had anyone question the preservative in my products.   If they did I would just explain as Krista said that it's for their safety.  I do give little scoops with my products as well and tell them to try to avoid getting water into them.

I too agree with Carolyn that the customer has to take some responsibility with safety too.


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## Dorymae (Aug 12, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> I do sell so I make sure it is stated clearly to keep from introducing water into the product. I do not recommend refrigeration or freezing since it can introduce moisture into the product. All precautions are taken with labeling. We do need to learn to take some responsibility as customers to follow instructions. I use preservative free eye drops in individual vials, but I could get more than one use. In my opinion if I decide to keep the opened vial and use it another day I accept the responsibility it is was labeled single use only. If I get an eye infection from reusing the vial that is my fault not the manufacturer.



While I personally agree with you, I'm very aware, as I'm sure you are too, that there is a population of people who disagree. These are the ones who run to sue because coffee is hot, and burns when spilled. Unfortunately these same people would never admit that they dipped wet fingers into the jar and had not washed their hands for 5 or so hours.  I also understand in Cali you probably get a lot of crunchies, that makes it more difficult. I certainly respect your decision of not using a preservative in oil only products, but for me it is still worth adding a preservative.


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## LoveOscar (Aug 14, 2015)

This is incredibly interesting. I was asked today to research propyl paraben (and its relevance as a preservative in skin care products), and it's lead me on a merry chase. I stop in here, and see this thread. Another merry chase; preservatives, natural, synthetic, etc. I've read articles explaining the appropriate pH balances for bacterial growth (4 to 9) and thrive (5.5 to 8.5). Articles explaining the antimicrobial/antibacterial properties of essential oils, and their associated pH ranges. I've read about alcohols (ethanol is a beautiful thing, really, it's like hemp, incredibly useful!), both ethyl and fatty. Parabens, in many forms, are naturally occurring in fruits and vegetables like blackberries and cucumbers, and they are often used in multiples to cover multiple pH ranges to prevent bacteria growth across the whole pH range.

Sorry, I'm going off the chain into a pleasant level of geekery here. :shock:

What are your thoughts on grapefruit seed extracts, or other extracts/essentials that might be both antibacterial AND antifungal (ie antimicrobial)?


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## Saponista (Aug 14, 2015)

A myriad of blogs tout he information that GSE is contaminated with other anti microbial chemicals which actually gives it it's preserving properties. I'm inclined to think this might be true, but I don't believe things that people put on their blogs if I can't find the actual factual evidence behind it as bad information seems to pass around like chinese whispers. If only I could find the original study.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 14, 2015)

Well! <cracking my fingers and grinning!> Here are abstracts from several research papers, Saponista. The first is probably the most damning evidence about GSE.

***

The antimicrobial efficacy as well as the content of preservative agents of six commercially available grapefruit seed extracts were examined. Five of the six extracts showed a high growth inhibiting activity against the test germs Bacillus subtilis SBUG 14, Micrococcus flavus SBUG 16, Staphylococcus aureus SBUG 11, Serratia marcescens SBUG 9, Escherichia coli SBUG 17, Proteus mirabilis SBUG 47, and Candida maltosa SBUG 700. In all of the antimicrobial active grapefruit seed extracts, the preservative benzethonium chloride was detected by thin layer chromatography. Additionally, three extracts contained the preserving substances triclosan and methyl parabene. 

In only one of the grapefruit seed extracts tested no preservative agent was found. However, with this extract as well as with several self-made extracts from seed and juiceless pulp of grapefruits (Citrus paradisi) no antimicrobial activity could be detected (standard serial broth dilution assay, agar diffusion test). 

Thus, it is concluded that the potent as well as nearly universal antimicrobial activity being attributed to grapefruit seed extract is merely due to the synthetic preservative agents contained within. Natural products with antimicrobial activity do not appear to be present. 

Source: Aspects of the antimicrobial efficacy of grapefruit seed extract and its relation to preservative substances contained. von Woedtke T1, Schlüter B, Pflegel P, Lindequist U, Jülich WD. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10399191

***

Commercial grapefruit seed extracts (GSE) were extracted with chloroform. The solvent was evaporated, and the resulting solid was subsequently analyzed by high-performance liquid chromatography, electrospray ionization mass spectrometry, nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy, and elemental analysis (by proton-induced X-ray emission [PIXE] analysis). 

The main constituent was identified as benzethonium chloride, a synthetic antimicrobial agent commonly used in cosmetics and other topical applications. This compound comprised 8.03% (n = 2) of the liquid GSE sample. Higher amounts of benzethonium chloride were found in powder GSE samples.

Source: Identification of benzethonium chloride in commercial grapefruit seed extracts. Takeoka G1, Dao L, Wong RY, Lundin R, Mahoney N. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16159196

***

Grapefruit seed extract (GSE), derived from the seeds of grapefruit (Citrus paradisi MCAF.), is listed as a natural food additive in Japan. Products containing GSE are used as disinfectants made from only natural sources, especially after Japanese researchers found that GSE prevents the growth of norovirus. 

On the other hand, recent overseas studies indicated that synthetic disinfectants, such as benzalkonium and benzethonium chlorides, were present in some commercial GSE products. To confirm the quality of commercial GSE products available in Japanese markets, we carried out comprehensive research to identify the major constituents of commercial GSE products which are used as food additives (13 products from 6 manufacturers), dietary supplements (5 products from 4 manufacturers), cosmetic materials (16 products from 10 manufacturers) and disinfectant or deodorant sprays (7 products from 7 manufacturers). 

By means of NMR and LC/MS analysis, synthetic disinfectants such as benzethonium or benzalkonium salts were detected in most of the commercial GSE products.

Source: Survey of synthetic disinfectants in grapefruit seed extract and its compounded products. [Article in Japanese] Sugimoto N1, Tada A, Kuroyanagi M, Yoneda Y, Yun YS, Kunugi A, Sato K, Yamazaki T, Tanamoto K. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18344660

***

More scholarly references are listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit_seed_extract


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## Saponista (Aug 14, 2015)

Oooh thank you, you did all the hard work for me. Definitely true then!


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## galaxyMLP (Aug 14, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Commercial grapefruit seed extracts (GSE) were extracted with chloroform. The solvent was evaporated, and the resulting solid was subsequently analyzed by high-performance liquid chromatography, electrospray ionization mass spectrometry, nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy, and elemental analysis (by proton-induced X-ray emission [PIXE] analysis).
> 
> The main constituent was identified as benzethonium chloride, a synthetic antimicrobial agent commonly used in cosmetics and other topical applications. This compound comprised 8.03% (n = 2) of the liquid GSE sample. Higher amounts of benzethonium chloride were found in powder GSE samples.



1) very interesting excerpts!

2) Does the quote above suggest that the benzethonium chloride is being produced during the chloroform extraction or are they saying that the benzethonium chloride was added after the extraction? I am a bit confused here. I *think* they are saying it is formed during the extraction which is pretty amazing if it is!


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## DeeAnna (Aug 14, 2015)

I don't think so, Galaxy. The way I read it, the chloroform was just the solvent used to extract the b.chloride from the GSE. I don't read that there was any chem reaction w the chloroform nor that the b.chloride was added. Just a basic solvent extraction of chloroform soluble constituents in the GSE. But abstracts sometimes gloss over important details, and I don't have access to the full text to confirm. Ugh....


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## galaxyMLP (Aug 15, 2015)

Can you send me the link possibly? I still have access to my university email and I'd like to read this if its open to me.

Honestly, the not reacting makes more sense I was just curious from the excerpts you had here. If I *do* have access I'll try and see if I can send it to you so you can read it too.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 15, 2015)

Here is the full cite:
Identification of benzethonium chloride in commercial grapefruit seed extracts.
Takeoka G1, Dao L, Wong RY, Lundin R, Mahoney N.
J Agric Food Chem. 2001 Jul;49(7):3316-20

It's going to cost me $35 just to read the article. If you can access it through your university access for free, that's the way to do it.


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## FlybyStardancer (Aug 15, 2015)

Dorymae said:


> These are the ones who run to sue because coffee is hot, and burns when spilled.



Can we please stop using this example as the poster child for frivolous law suits? The incident that it refers to wasn't actually a frivolous law suit at all, and the media completely misrepresented it.

Frivolous law suits are stupid, but I'd rather stick to mocking _actual_ frivolous law suits.


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## Dorymae (Aug 15, 2015)

FlybyStardancer said:


> Can we please stop using this example as the poster child for frivolous law suits? The incident that it refers to wasn't actually a frivolous law suit at all, and the media completely misrepresented it.
> 
> Frivolous law suits are stupid, but I'd rather stick to mocking _actual_ frivolous law suits.



Sorry Flyby, if you have a better one to cite that will make the point please, by all means. . . (Yes I know the truth about the mcdonalds incident, however it is still used as an example. Most people understand the issue by citing that incident, even if the truth of the lawsuit was sustained. )


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