# Hot Process and superfat



## luvtobeamom (Feb 14, 2015)

Can someone please help me understand this?  I want to superfat the soap after the cook and I'm so confused.

If I want to superfat the soap with shea butter at 5%, how do I do that in soapcalc?  I know I can superfat before the cook but setting the superfat discount to 5%, but how do I do that afterward?
If I take the shea butter out of the calculation, it comes to 95% and I need 100% for the calulator to work.

Example:  My soap has 46 oz of oils, to superfat shea butter that would be 2.3oz of oil, but if I take that out, what do I add to make 100%?  If I don't add something, won't it be lye heavy if I keep the shea in the calculation, but just don't use it?
I'm sorry if this is confusing, I'm just confused.:eh:


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## hmlove1218 (Feb 14, 2015)

I had a longer response but it disappeared so I'm sorry if this comes across a little short. I don't feel like typing it all out again lol.

If your original recipe calls for 46 ounces of oils including 2.3 ounces of shea, calculate your recipe for 43.7 ounces of oils with a 0%-1% SF without the shea. Save the shea and add it after the cook.

You don't need to add anything to bring the total up to 100% you just need to adjust your other oil percentsges.


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## Obsidian (Feb 14, 2015)

I do it even easier. if you have 5% shea in your recipe, set your SF at 5% and simply save out the shea to add after the cook. Does that make sense? If you have a recipe that is 95% OO and 5% shea, put them both in the calc and set the SF at 5%.


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## luvtobeamom (Feb 14, 2015)

Obsidion-does that affect the amount of lye?

Wouldn't it be lye heavy because I'm cooking the amount of lye with what was supposed to be 95% oo and 5% shea?


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## Obsidian (Feb 14, 2015)

No, it doesn't affect the lye amount and no, it won't be lye heavy. By setting the SF at 5%, you are calculating the lye amount so 5% of your oils stay oil. With HP, you are simply saving this 5% to add after the cook. The 95% OO you cook will be a 0% SF soap, then you add your shea to bring it up to 5%.


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## luvtobeamom (Feb 14, 2015)

Thank you so much for your help!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 14, 2015)

Sorry, obsidian, but it does affect the lye. The lye discount is based on all oils in the mix, including the butter. 

The method I use is put it all in the calc, including the butter. Switch the method over from % to weight (the option for the oils) and remove the butter. Make the superfat to 1% and calculate the lye. That way you have enough lye for the oils you want to saponify. Doing it the other way gives you an incorrect amount of lye - unless your butter has a sap value that is exactly the same as the average of all the other oils combined


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## reinbeau (Feb 14, 2015)

TEG is right.  I calculate my SF based on all of the base oils of the soap, with SoapCalc set at 0% SF, or even 1%, if you want a bit more margin.  So what if it's 52.5 ounces instead if 50?  Holding back that 5 ounces will definitely leave you with a lye heavy soap.


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## Obsidian (Feb 14, 2015)

No, it doesn't leave you with a lye heavy soap. I guess I'm not explaining myself very well. 

Take a standard CP recipe, lets say 95% OO and 5% shea, set it at 5% SF and make it CP, will it be lye heavy? no it won't. Now take the same recipe and make it HP, will it be lye heavy? No it won't. Now take the same recipe, hold the shea out, cook the OO then add the shea, it still won't be lye heavy. 

Mind you the HP recipe and CP recipe are exactly the same, same oil weights and same lye amounts. It doesn't matter when the oils are added or how its made, in the end, all the ingredients get into the soap.


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## reinbeau (Feb 14, 2015)

The whole point of hot process is the saponification process is over with the cook.  Explain to me how you can take out the 5% of the shea, cook just the 95% with the amount of lye for 100% of the oils, and not have a lye heavy soap.  I'm sorry, not trying to argue, but you must not be explaining what you really mean.


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## Cindy2428 (Feb 14, 2015)

Forgive a newb here, but I thought when you added the SF, 5% in this case, that soapcalc reduced the lye amount to take the SF into consideration. I preparing for my basic CP certification exam and was going to practice my math with my recipe numbers...


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## Obsidian (Feb 14, 2015)

Because if the SF is set to 5% on soap calc, then the lye amount in only enough to saponify 95% of the oils.

Here is a visual, this is the soapcal recipe the way I figure. The whole recipe set at 5% SF. http://www.evernote.com/l/ANgpyNY-hHtOnpHfFUQfrOQVj6agFFuIR5M/

and here is the soap cal recipe with just the OO, set at 0% SF. Same lye amount (tiny difference) but they way I do it, it tells me how much shea I need to use. 
http://www.evernote.com/l/ANh4JpOwnIZKn7uB7oX1KCgDWLy8oInTRbM/


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 14, 2015)

True, Cindy, but that is a lye discount, not a superfat -

A lye discount means that 5% of the lye required to saponify ALL of the oils is left away. If you did this with two oils with massively different sap values and kept 5% of one of these oils out, then the lye amount for the remaining 95% will either be too much or not enough, depending on which oil - as the 5% discount was based on a mix of all oils, not just one of them. 

So just leaving out an oil and adding it at the end means that the cook may not be finished completely or that you also have other oils as the superfat. Sure, you put in your superfat at the end of the cook, but some of it could still saponify and more importantly there could still be raw lye present when you think the cook is finished. 

We are talking small %, but it is still there.


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## Cindy2428 (Feb 14, 2015)

Thanks EG for the clarification. I am more than math challenged - I'm math retarded and w/out soap calculators I don't think I could make soap. But I will keep trying to figure it out.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Feb 14, 2015)

I use this calculation to get an accurate sf: http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-calculate-the-hot-process-superfat.html

I plug in on soapcalc my base oils with a 0% sf so I can get the lye amount needed for those oils to completely saponify. Then I use the equation in the link provided to get an exact sf %.  If you like, you can post your soap recipe and I can tell you how much sf you need for it to be 5%


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 14, 2015)

It's not an overly easy topic. 

Another thing to remember is that we have to say 'superfat' and not 'lye discount' - the two are different, in this case.


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## luvtobeamom (Feb 15, 2015)

Thank you all so much for your help so far, but I'm more confused than ever...lol

Can I give the recipe and what I did last night and you tell me if this is right?

I set the soap calc to superfat at 6% because I wanted the 1% buffer.

I knew 5% of cocoa butter for this particular recipe was 1.93 oz

My recipe:
Avocado Oil 2.70oz 
Almond Oil 2.31oz
Cocoa butter 4.62 oz (remember I reserved 1.93oz for the superfat)
Castor oil 1.93 oz
Olive oil 17.33oz
Coconut oil 9.63oz

Water was 14.63 oz
 Lye was 5.33 oz

I hot processed this recipe minue 1.93 oz of the cocoa butter.  Then at the vaseline stage I added the extra cocoa butter.

Was that right?  Please help, I don't want to hurt my family or friends with a lye heavy soap.  I want to make sure I'm doing this right.


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## luvtobeamom (Feb 15, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Sorry, obsidian, but it does affect the lye. The lye discount is based on all oils in the mix, including the butter.
> 
> The method I use is put it all in the calc, including the butter. Switch the method over from % to weight (the option for the oils) and remove the butter. Make the superfat to 1% and calculate the lye. That way you have enough lye for the oils you want to saponify. Doing it the other way gives you an incorrect amount of lye - unless your butter has a sap value that is exactly the same as the average of all the other oils combined



What I don't understand about this is I switch over to weight and calculate, then take out the butter the amount won't be 100% anymore and won't calculate.  Can you please explain?


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2015)

Obsidian has a valid point. The Gent has a valid point. The Curious Soapmaker has a point. Explaining the mathematical distinction between the three viewpoints will only be more confusing, so I'm not going to try.

In the end, any of these methods will work about the same, as long as you stick with a superfat that has a reasonable saponification value. There will be too much error when using superfatting with a fat that has an unusually low sap value, such as jojoba or lanolin. But you want cocoa butter, and that will work plenty fine.

The easiest and simplest is Obsidian's method. Calculate the recipe as a regular CP or HP recipe using the lye discount you want. Hold out the fat you want as superfat. Make the recipe with the rest of the fats and all of the lye as usual. At the end of the cook, the soap ~may~ possibly be a bit lye heavy. Small matter. Add in the superfat. If there is a bit of excess lye remaining, it will saponify happily with a bit of the superfat. The fat remaining in the soap will be the fat you want as superfat at the correct lye discount % you wanted.


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## kchaystack (Feb 15, 2015)

This is how I would do this math:

Avocado Oil 2.70oz 
Almond Oil 2.31oz
Cocoa butter 2.69 oz 
Castor oil 1.93 oz
Olive oil 17.33oz
Coconut oil 9.63oz

Set it at 1% superfat for a buffer.

This gives you 5.36 oz of lye.  

Then, take the total weight of your oils and multiply by .05

26.59 oz of oil * .05 = 1.33 oz of your super fat oil.

By the numbers you used, your superfat was:

1.93 / 26.59 * 100 = 7.25 %

Of course I am new to this - but my math makes sense to me.  And I would do it in grams.  I hate using oz for weight.   




luvtobeamom said:


> Thank you all so much for your help so far, but I'm more confused than ever...lol
> 
> Can I give the recipe and what I did last night and you tell me if this is right?
> 
> ...


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## luvtobeamom (Feb 15, 2015)

MagicalMysterySoap said:


> I use this calculation to get an accurate sf: http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-calculate-the-hot-process-superfat.html
> 
> I plug in on soapcalc my base oils with a 0% sf so I can get the lye amount needed for those oils to completely saponify. Then I use the equation in the link provided to get an exact sf %.  If you like, you can post your soap recipe and I can tell you how much sf you need for it to be 5%



This makes my head spin:lolno:


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2015)

Don't worry about it. Pick a method that makes sense to you and ignore the others.

If you ever get to the point where you want to superfat with fancy stuff like lanolin or jojoba or other waxes, ask this question again and we'll talk about the more complicated methods.


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## luvtobeamom (Feb 15, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Don't worry about it. Pick a method that makes sense to you and ignore the others.
> 
> If you ever get to the point where you want to superfat with fancy stuff like lanolin or jojoba or other waxes, ask this question again and we'll talk about the more complicated methods.



I will either superfat with cocoa, mango or shea butter.  Will all of those be o.k. with the methods above?


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## luvtobeamom (Feb 15, 2015)

kchaystack said:


> This is how I would do this math:
> 
> Avocado Oil 2.70oz
> Almond Oil 2.31oz
> ...



This does make sense to me, just wanted to make sure this would be o.k. to do.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2015)

Yes, they'll be fine. 

To give you some idea of a "reasonable saponification value" -- you'd be fine with a fat that has an NaOH sap value from 0.120 to 0.200, more or less. Your three butters have NaOH sap values from 0.125 to 0.135, so they're within that reasonable range. 

The NaOH sap value for lanolin is 0.075 and for jojoba is 0.068. See the difference?


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## Shirley Kates (Mar 1, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> Obsidian has a valid point. The Gent has a valid point. The Curious Soapmaker has a point. Explaining the mathematical distinction between the three viewpoints will only be more confusing, so I'm not going to try.
> 
> In the end, any of these methods will work about the same, as long as you stick with a superfat that has a reasonable saponification value. There will be too much error when using superfatting with a fat that has an unusually low sap value, such as jojoba or lanolin. But you want cocoa butter, and that will work plenty fine.
> 
> The easiest and simplest is Obsidian's method. Calculate the recipe as a regular CP or HP recipe using the lye discount you want. Hold out the fat you want as superfat. Make the recipe with the rest of the fats and all of the lye as usual. At the end of the cook, the soap ~may~ possibly be a bit lye heavy. Small matter. Add in the superfat. If there is a bit of excess lye remaining, it will saponify happily with a bit of the superfat. The fat remaining in the soap will be the fat you want as superfat at the correct lye discount % you wanted.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 4, 2019)

Hello, @Shirley Kates -- 

SMF discourages "necroposting" in old threads for various reasons. Instead we encourage people to start a new thread and perhaps give a link to an old post to give some background. In this case the original poster is no longer participating here so replies to her won't be read by the OP. That said, I am still around and willing to help. You quoted my post from 2015, but didn't add anything to it. What is your question or comment?

Also, we encourage new people to introduce themselves in the Introduction forum. Why don't you share a little bit about yourself there?


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