# Lard Versus Tallow Shortening



## cmzaha (Jan 24, 2015)

I am doing some test soap of 100% tallow shortening and 100% lard soapies. These I am making with no additives and water only with a 3% superfat. I have been wondering how  lard versus tallow will feel. If anyone is interested in a sample either pm me or send an email to [email protected]. These are just my little flowers I pour for samples. I am also wondering if either will come down with dos, and how the lather compares


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## Obsidian (Jan 24, 2015)

Where do you find 100% tallow shortening? It would be interesting to see how it compares to tallow I've rendered.


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## jules92207 (Jan 24, 2015)

I am very curious in this experiment! Can't wait to hear the results.


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## Jstar (Jan 24, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> Where do you find 100% tallow shortening? It would be interesting to see how it compares to tallow I've rendered.



Ditto to this..never come across 100% tallow shortening, do tell Carolyn plzzzzz


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## cmzaha (Jan 24, 2015)

Jstar said:


> Ditto to this..never come across 100% tallow shortening, do tell Carolyn plzzzzz


It is sold by Smart & Final under their brand First Street and is used for deep frying french frys. LOL, at least that is what the box states it is best for. It makes a pure white soap with absolutely no smell


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## new12soap (Jan 24, 2015)

OMG I wish we had Smart & Final here!


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## Obsidian (Jan 24, 2015)

Me too!


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## Jstar (Jan 24, 2015)

Dang! Wish we had one of those here too *sniffles*

Looks like Im going to have to go on a hunting spree to find something like it lol

Thankies for the info Carolyn!


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## snappyllama (Jan 24, 2015)

I cannot wait for your results to come in. I've kept bumping up my lard % until I now make Susie's recipe and LOVE it.


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## cmzaha (Jan 24, 2015)

Interesting, the tallow shortening ones I poured around 3:00pm already set- up very solid, no zap, but formed so much ash it rolled off when I rubbed my finger over them. These did not gel and are pure white. The lard ones I poured right after posting at 3:30 are still not set. They were made at same temp but a little less water, both were at extremely light trace when poured.


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## jules92207 (Jan 25, 2015)

Wow. That is very interesting.

I have considered the tallow at Smart & Final, but I would have to purchase the 50 lb block. They don't sell it any smaller at mine. I don't know if I am ready to make that kind of commitment.


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## Sonya-m (Jan 25, 2015)

I love lard soap! In fact I've just used my first 75% bar this morning - gorgeous. 

I keep meaning to ask my local butcher if they charge for fat cuttings so I can render my own lard and tallow to see what the difference is.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jan 25, 2015)

jules92207 said:


> Wow. That is very interesting.
> 
> I have considered the tallow at Smart & Final, but I would have to purchase the 50 lb block. They don't sell it any smaller at mine. I don't know if I am ready to make that kind of commitment.



Same. I really want to try the tallow shortening that they sell but soaping is just a hobby of mine so 50 lbs is A Lot. I wish they sold in smaller amounts also. So I just settle in using the Walmart GV animal shortening, it's not 100% tallow but it will do for now.


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## jules92207 (Jan 25, 2015)

MagicalMysterySoap said:


> Same. I really want to try the tallow shortening that they sell but soaping is just a hobby of mine so 50 lbs is A Lot. I wish they sold in smaller amounts also. So I just settle in using the Walmart GV animal shortening, it's not 100% tallow but it will do for now.



^^^Exactly!


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## cmzaha (Feb 22, 2015)

Update, it will be another 2 weeks before I send out the samples. I am running a couple of other test soapies that I will include and I need to recheck the lard samples I made. Not sure if I noted wrong on my notes or not. I gelled one batch of soapie samples and one ungelled and if my notes are correct it does not compute in my brain. One is a definate yellow which I labeled ungelled and one is pure white which I labeled gelled. I am guessing I mixed up the notes,  blaming it on one of those senior moments.  Since I am not sure I have enough lard from the same batch of lard to re-run. I have not forgotten to send them out. Anyone else wanting some samples let me know by pm. Will also be including one with a fragrance I had duped because I could not longer buy it, and some plain from the same batch made with the rendered tallow I aquired last week. Also a 100% veggie will be included. Might as well compare all :razz:


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## cmzaha (Apr 5, 2015)

Just a quick update. Think you might be surprised with these soap samples. I know everyone must have thought I have forgotten but alas I have not. The non-gelled lard soap samples with 3% superfat are total orange (dos?) but no off smell. The gelled are now starting to turn these were made on 1/242015. I will be packaging all seperate with notes included. All the soapies were made the same with either 100% tallow, distilled water and citric acid at 1% for chelating, extra lye at 0.624. I am really beginning to wonder about lard. This was rendered lard from a local Hispanic market. The tallow samples are holding up great


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## Obsidian (Apr 5, 2015)

Thats really odd. I've made 100% lard that ended up stored in the closet for nearly a year and it stayed white the whole time. I do use store bought lard though, not fresh rendered.


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 5, 2015)

How's the smell?  As in, do they smell like they are made from animal fat?
I was thinking of switching from lard to tallow (commercial so not 100% pure).
I make facial bars from lard, but while they are gentle and lovely,  DOS is starting to drive me nuts.
I have batch made around the New Years, 0% SF, HP as they wouldn't set as CP and they are developing DOS grrr.


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## Obsidian (Apr 5, 2015)

Curious, for those of you getting DOS from lard, what is your humidity? Its really low here, in the winter the house is 0 and the summer it is around 20.


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## cmzaha (Apr 5, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> Thats really odd. I've made 100% lard that ended up stored in the closet for nearly a year and it stayed white the whole time. I do use store bought lard though, not fresh rendered.


I am wondering if light makes a difference. I have a few that have not discolored so I am going to put them away in a dark drawer and see what happens. 
I can say I notice a huge difference between the lather and feel of tallow and lard. Lard gets the A for both lather and feel. I am pretty amazed at the difference.
Finally got all the samples packaged and labeled. Will box them tonight


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## Dahila (Apr 5, 2015)

Lard is creamy and very gentle on skin,  I like tallow too, which comes cheaper than lard so I mix the two together 30% lard, 30% tallow


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## jules92207 (Apr 5, 2015)

Can't go wrong with a little of both!


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## cmzaha (Apr 5, 2015)

fuzz-juzz said:


> How's the smell?  As in, do they smell like they are made from animal fat?
> I was thinking of switching from lard to tallow (commercial so not 100% pure).
> I make facial bars from lard, but while they are gentle and lovely, DOS is starting to drive me nuts.
> I have batch made around the New Years, 0% SF, HP as they wouldn't set as CP and they are developing DOS grrr.


I pick up more smell with the lard versus the tallow, but my fragrance always covers it up. I am in the same boat with the lard even though I love it I am so tired of dos. Our humidity is not unusually high, all year but our summers are becoming similiar to Arizona monsoon weather, just without the rain. A while back I went through all my notes to find the common factor in some soaps that were getting spotty, they all had lard in common


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 6, 2015)

Thanks cmzaha! 
I'm so tempted to give it a go now. I don't pick up lard smell at all so I think I won't mind tallow then.
Is there much difference in mildness when they are used. I plugged in 100% lard vs 100% tallow in the Soapcalc and there's 7 points difference in cleansing value. Shouldn't make to much difference should it?
As for the humid weather, Melbourne cansbe humid, but only few days at the time during summer, nothing too bad. I had bars with heaps of SF, high % of oils that will easily DOS, but I ony ever had issues with lard. And I tried both, home rendered and shop bought.


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## cmzaha (Apr 6, 2015)

fuzz-juzz said:


> Thanks cmzaha!
> I'm so tempted to give it a go now. I don't pick up lard smell at all so I think I won't mind tallow then.
> Is there much difference in mildness when they are used. I plugged in 100% lard vs 100% tallow in the Soapcalc and there's 7 points difference in cleansing value. Shouldn't make to much difference should it?
> As for the humid weather, Melbourne cansbe humid, but only few days at the time during summer, nothing too bad. I had bars with heaps of SF, high % of oils that will easily DOS, but I ony ever had issues with lard. And I tried both, home rendered and shop bought.


It took more effort to build up the lather with the tallow and it was not as silky feeling, but did not feel bad. The lard had a very thick lotion type lather that was very silky. I know most store purchased lard has preservatives and I wonder if the amount varies. My very first bar of soap is still around after 6 yrs and was high lard, but a different brand that I now use. It has never come down with spots


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## jblaney (Apr 6, 2015)

Cmzaha - So the lard you used for your test soaps was not the Smart & Final one, right?   I use that one and have had no problems with it, but now you have me worried.


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 6, 2015)

I just brought home some tallow hehe.
I really like how lard soap feels, shame about annoying DOS. I use it mostly on face as anything else will cause eczema to flare up.
I might do 50/50 at first to see how it turns out. I might add some castor for bubbles.


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## Susie (Apr 6, 2015)

Those lard soaps should not have been developing DOS.  Something else is going on.  I live in a very high humidity area, and my very first soap was 100% Lard.  I still have a bar(my precioussssss) that has been in the bathroom cabinet in the super high humidity, and low air flow with no DOS.


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## LBussy (Apr 6, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> I can say I notice a huge difference between the lather and feel of tallow and lard. Lard gets the A for both lather and feel. I am pretty amazed at the difference.


I agree I can definitely feel a difference.  I prefer the tallow for my shave soaps though - lard gets the nod for bars.


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## cmzaha (Apr 6, 2015)

Susie said:


> Those lard soaps should not have been developing DOS. Something else is going on. I live in a very high humidity area, and my very first soap was 100% Lard. I still have a bar(my precioussssss) that has been in the bathroom cabinet in the super high humidity, and low air flow with no DOS.


Yes I do agree, and the smell is not off at all. But it is interesting that one is quite orange and the others are starting to change. They were all made with distilled water no color, other than one that is marked fragranced and colored with mica, or additives. The color of one reminds me of burnt gm. All the boxes went out. If you want one Susie let me know and I will get together another box. When we did the superfat swap all my soap samples turned orange, not sure if anyone else experienced the same and they were not lard

Blaney, these were not made with S&F Lard, but I have had the same thing happen with it. Just not this bad. These were made with Farmer John Lard in the red box and rendered lard from the hispanic meat market it had no piggy smell like the Farmer John Lard. Maybe you should do some soapie samples with the S&F lard. I am out of it at the moment


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## Obsidian (Apr 6, 2015)

Carolyn, have you ever used amour brand lard? Thats what I use with no DOS. The only times I got DOS was a early batch high in crisco and my first castile that went rancid after 2 months.


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## jules92207 (Apr 6, 2015)

I've actually never had dos and I've used both farmer john and armour. Maybe I am just lucky?


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## cmzaha (Apr 7, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> Carolyn, have you ever used amour brand lard? Thats what I use with no DOS. The only times I got DOS was a early batch high in crisco and my first castile that went rancid after 2 months.


No, but I have used Snow Cap without any problems. When I first started soaping I picked up several 4lb buckets of Snow Cap Lard from Walmart for a $1.50 per bucket. Bought them all and it lasted a long time without ever going rancid or have dos in soaps. I am going to do some more testing with other brands


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## jules92207 (Apr 9, 2015)

I got my box today! Can't wait to try them.


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## cmzaha (Apr 9, 2015)

jules92207 said:


> I got my box today! Can't wait to try them.


LOL, you probably won't be to excited when you see the color of them. roblem:


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## zolveria (Apr 10, 2015)

Darn me too. I was looking for beef tallow here in the valley. you be surprise as the looks and questions. Im like um I make soap.
then i got WHY WOULD YOU WASH YOURSELF WITH GREASE. I HAD TO LAUGH HARD AT THAT ONE. smh. The only ones that understand are the farmers around here. Never tried rendering my own tallow.but i got a butche with six pound of suet for me. I wounder if it will turn out to be 1 pound after i boil it ?


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## newbie (Apr 10, 2015)

Watching with interest. 

As a tangent, I still have all my pieces from the SF swap and only one got DOS, #7. I'm amazed because one of them is a 27 or 28% SF. Also of interest is that I cut pieces off each soap and shipped the rest on to someone else. They reported most has DOS but my pieces, which are from the same soaps, have not developed any, except for the one. Odd.


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## lenarenee (Apr 10, 2015)

I got my box today too!  Thank you Carolyn - you've gone to a lot of thorough work having each sample packaged and labeled just so.  A special thank you for the fo sample - I take it there's an interesting story behind that?

My day was full of unexpected things so I only got to try one soap: the 100% lard that turned orange. We have soft water and the lather was thick and lotiony.  The best thing is this 3% sf soap left my hands noticeable less dry than my own bar of 5% sf. The weather has been very dry here, and despite using lotion, my hands are still dry. After one washing with Carolyn's soap, then one application of lotion my hands are finally !

Can't wait to try the others....hopefully tomorrow is a calmer day so I can try out all of the others.


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## cmzaha (Apr 10, 2015)

lenarenee said:


> I got my box today too!  Thank you Carolyn - you've gone to a lot of thorough work having each sample packaged and labeled just so.  A special thank you for the fo sample - I take it there's an interesting story behind that?
> 
> My day was full of unexpected things so I only got to try one soap: the 100% lard that turned orange. We have soft water and the lather was thick and lotiony.  The best thing is this 3% sf soap left my hands noticeable less dry than my own bar of 5% sf. The weather has been very dry here, and despite using lotion, my hands are still dry. After one washing with Carolyn's soap, then one application of lotion my hands are finally !
> 
> Can't wait to try the others....hopefully tomorrow is a calmer day so I can try out all of the others.


The fragrance is one of my very best sellers and is a great mixer with floral fo's. The original supplier of it closed due to illness so I ended up having it duped. It actually turned out even nicer than the original. Unfortunately even with the purchase of 10 lbs it is an expensive fragrance. Hope you enjoy it


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## jules92207 (Apr 10, 2015)

The fo you had duped smells amazing, I am certainly trying that one this weekend in a soap. And who's dragons blood is this? I think I've only tried BB and couldn't understand all the hoopla over the fragrance but this little baby is delicious!


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## cmzaha (Apr 10, 2015)

jules92207 said:


> The fo you had duped smells amazing, I am certainly trying that one this weekend in a soap. And who's dragons blood is this? I think I've only tried BB and couldn't understand all the hoopla over the fragrance but this little baby is delicious!


Had that one duped also and it turned out amazing! Again better than the original and does not go as dark as the one I had duped. The original goes a dark purple brown. I had intended on purchasing the 10 lbs but my friend that had it duped kept it himself and never gave me much of a price break. I was a bit peeved but he has the supply business not me and did get it made for me.  He said we would get it considerably cheaper if we can purchase 25 lbs min. If you really like it you can call California Candle Supply and see if he has anymore, I do not know if he got it ordered again, since I have not been to his booth for a couple of weeks at my market. I do know he never put it up on the website, and is only selling it if someone calls for it. Long story... He also has an awesome realistic Plumeria that is his not mine


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## Susie (Apr 10, 2015)

zolveria said:


> Darn me too. I was looking for beef tallow here in the valley. you be surprise as the looks and questions. Im like um I make soap.
> then i got WHY WOULD YOU WASH YOURSELF WITH GREASE. I HAD TO LAUGH HARD AT THAT ONE. smh. The only ones that understand are the farmers around here. Never tried rendering my own tallow.but i got a butche with six pound of suet for me. I wounder if it will turn out to be 1 pound after i boil it ?



I got 7.45 lbs of tallow from 10.42 lbs of beef fat.  I was really surprised I ended up with that much, to tell the truth.  I was really looking to get about 5lb only.  The dogs all got the meat I removed from the trimmings(cooked, of course), so everyone was happy.


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## Obsidian (Apr 10, 2015)

I got my samples today. Thank you for the FO, its quite nice. I decided to start testing with the all over dos lard, figured it should get used before its gets any worse. I'm also testing the tallow with the yellow mica. They are very similar but I can tell a difference in lather.

I'm keeping notes and will report back once I've tested all the samples. It may take awhile as I'm only doing 2 at a time. I'd like to use up each bar in the shower but I'm not sure if I'll be able too with the dos lard, it smells pretty bad.

For others who have gotten their samples, can you smell any piggy or beefy scent? I opened all the samples so they can get air and they all smell like animal to me.


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## Susie (Apr 10, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> If you want one Susie let me know and I will get together another box.



Sorry I missed this earlier, and thank you very much for the offer.  However, with my allergies, I would truly hesitate to accept.


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## cmzaha (Apr 10, 2015)

Susie said:


> Sorry I missed this earlier, and thank you very much for the offer. However, with my allergies, I would truly hesitate to accept.


The test samples are done with no fo, water and 100% tallow or lard. I could leave out the fo sample. I have severe allergies so respect all allergies. Just send me a pm if you are interested in the plain test samples. Everything one is packaged.


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## lenarenee (Apr 10, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> I got my samples today. Thank you for the FO, its quite nice. I decided to start testing with the all over dos lard, figured it should get used before its gets any worse. I'm also testing the tallow with the yellow mica. They are very similar but I can tell a difference in lather.
> 
> I'm keeping notes and will report back once I've tested all the samples. It may take awhile as I'm only doing 2 at a time. I'd like to use up each bar in the shower but I'm not sure if I'll be able too with the dos lard, it smells pretty bad.
> 
> For others who have gotten their samples, can you smell any piggy or beefy scent? I opened all the samples so they can get air and they all smell like animal to me.



I don't get an animal smell. I've opened the lard dos, and a tallow one (can't get more specific than that at the moment)  The lard dos one has a heavy "fatty" and slightly dusty smell to it, according to my nose.  Unfresh.  

The 100% tallow has less overall smell, but I would categorize it as a "fat" smell.  I certainly can't discern a "pig" or "beef" smell.  

I've  used many containers of Wal Mart lard, and now have a Smart and Final lard. Most of the lard (smelling the product from the bucket) has smelled only fatty to me. However....I bought some wal mart (Farmer John) lard at Christmas that was hugely piggy smelling to me out of the bucket.  So much so that I didn't want to use it. I did, and it smelled worse when melting. In the finished soap, I didn't detect a piggy smell....but it sure was a fatty smelling soap. Now, my usual lard recipe with 70% lard, 15, co, 5 castor 10 ho safflower, unscented.....I love the smell. It smells like wholesome old fashioned  soap to me, a soap made with fat.

I made a bastille with 85 % oo, and it smells like olive oil, except without the   "fresh from the bottle good enough to eat plain" scent.

I have no idea if my opinion is helpful to you, but there it is.

Everyone's noses are different. I wonder if your nose is "smarter" than mine, or if anything that smells fatty to you, makes you think of animal smell??

Oh! None of the tallow I've used (Smart and Final - looks and scoops a lot like Crisco, btw) and the grassfed organic tallow from eBay) has much smell at all to me. In fact, the Smart and Final is virtually scentless to me....even melted.


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## Obsidian (Apr 10, 2015)

I do have a very sensitive nose to some scents. Its not just a fatty scent, its a rancid animal scent. All the samples have the same sour, rancid animal fat scent which is weird.
I use a lot of lard and my 100% lard bars keep a piggy smell but its never rancid. My home rendered tallow from a older grass fed cow is really strongly scented, ts actually kind of nasty and must be covered with FO.


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## cmzaha (Apr 10, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> I do have a very sensitive nose to some scents. Its not just a fatty scent, its a rancid animal scent. All the samples have the same sour, rancid animal fat scent which is weird.
> I use a lot of lard and my 100% lard bars keep a piggy smell but its never rancid. My home rendered tallow from a older grass fed cow is really strongly scented, ts actually kind of nasty and must be covered with FO.


I get that sour smell with any soap table butter. A few of tried to make butter soap a couple of yrs ago and it was awful. Everytime I washed with it I smelled the sour. With these I smell the fat, but not a rancid sour. And now you know the other reason all the soapies were in their own bag and labeled. 100% tallow from S&F is shortening so it is hydrogenated


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## not_ally (Apr 11, 2015)

Yay, got my soapies/goodies today!  

Carolyn,  thanks so much for doing these single oil experiments.  I am always  curious about them but inevitably come up with something else to do.   And lard and tallow are my favorites, so I it is really good to (a) read  about these experiments with them and (b) actually get to physically  test the results.  My thoughts:

Veggie  sample:  That was the dragon's blood one, right?  Great bubbles I  thought, but seemed to make my hands a bit dry.  I do have v. dry  hands.  And I agree, I don't usually like DB at all but found this one  v. pleasant.

Farmer John Lard samples:  I think you might be  right about having reversed the  gel/ungelled labeling, my "ungelled" one is a fairly bright  yellow-ish orange, the "gelled" one is much paler, creamish white on top  and on the bottom and starting to get that yellow-orange tinge along  the  points of the star in between.  Not sure if is DOS, but it doesn't  actually look  bad, it is kind of pretty and  almost looks like it was part of the  design (ie. not random discolored spots).  Did you color these  at all (I like that orangish-yellow, would buy it in a mica!  Oops, just  reread your post, no color in that one.)   Slightly smaller bubbles  than the veggie soap, but nice creamy lather.  Also, my hands feel less  dry than with the veggie.

Butcher  lard samples:  Both of these were a nice creamy, consistent color.   Again, the "ungelled" sample was a tad bit darker than the "gelled".  As  with the tallow (see below) I was surprised that I felt as if the  lather was both more bubbly and creamy with the Farmer John Samples than  with the butcher sourced ones, although there was clearly less  discoloration with the latter.  

Tallow  samples:  Again, both nice, creamy and consistent coloring w/"ungelled"  a bit darker than "gelled".  For me, a very counter-intuitive result in  use, though, I expected the butcher's tallow to be measurably better  somehow than the S&F one.  When I used it though, it did not produce  a lather which was either bubbly or that creamy.  The S&F tallow  lather was both more bubbly and creamy (not as creamy as the lard soaps, though).  My hands after use feel pretty much like they did with the lard.  These were the only ones that smelled a bit meaty to me when I sniffed them before use, not during or after, though.

FO:   LOVED it.  Even my mother (we always disagree on scents loved it.) If  you ever decide to sell any/do a coop, count me in.  Great woodsy, musky  mix.  Thanks so much for including it.  I am going to put some in  lotion, yummy!  

On  balance, I think I liked the Farmer Johns lard soap the best.  I just  hope that it doesn't inevitably lead to DOS, I used it in a lot of my  earlier soaps, have switched to S&F lard now, but I think you  mentioned in another post that you had encountered problems (if less)  with that too.  

Final questions, where did you get your little soapie molds?  Those are so cute.

Thanks again for doing this and taking the time and trouble to send these out to us lucky recipients!


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## cmzaha (Apr 11, 2015)

The Dragon's Blood soap has a cleaning value of 15. I make it for men and actually it is not just a veggie soap. It is a 32% Tallow, 18% Coconut, Palm, RBO, Sunflower, Castor 4% superfat which is higher than I normally soap. I rechecked my notes and did not mix up the gelled and ungelled. Results are interesting. If you use the Hardwood in lotion try about 1-1.5% that fo is very strong. The little yellow soapie (the one colored with mica, lol I picked a dumb color,) was fragranced with 1 oz ppo, my customers like it strong, but many use it around .7 oz ppo I say many, that was when it was available.


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## not_ally (Apr 11, 2015)

"The Dragon's Blood soap has a cleaning value of 15. I make it for men  and actually it is not just a veggie soap. It is a 32% Tallow, 18%  Coconut, Palm, RBO, Sunflower, Castor 4% superfat which is higher than I  normally soap"

This is probably why I found it a bit drying - I have super dry skin - I think it is actually a genetic thing, if I don't moisturize well every day my skin gets ashy - and I usually superfat at 7.5-8, thinking of going even higher.  One of the reasons I use lard at a minimum of 60 % these days.  So (a) I am probably a bad test subject in that respect; and (b) why I did best with the lard soaps.


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## Obsidian (Apr 11, 2015)

Now that the samples have had a chance to air out, the scents has lessened. Now I'm mostly just getting a fatty smell. I used the FO in batch yesterday at .50oz PPO and its plenty strong. It seems more musky now then OOB, I really like it.


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## jules92207 (Apr 12, 2015)

Starting with the Farmer John gelled and ungelled. I get the smell, but I don't know if I'd call it a bad smell, just a strong smell. It doesn't seem to stay once I dry my hands, and it's not off putting. Interesting stuff. 

Both samples have some yellow. Ungelled is almost completely yellow/orange. Gelled has just a couple spots of yellowish.

Lather is good and creamy for both.


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## Obsidian (Apr 16, 2015)

Did some more testing this morning. 

The farmer johns lard has a noticeable difference in how quick it lathers between the ungelled and gelled. I found the ungelled lathers quicker with larger bubbles but they break down quickly into a super creamy lather. Of the two, I prefer the ungelled. Left my hands nice and soft but smelling a bit like old fat.

There was no noticeable differences in the two tallow samples. Both have bigger bubbles then the lard but not as creamy. Very soft skin but also a bit of a oily film, had to wash with salt bar to remove. Definitely like the lard better.

The home rendered lard had a definite piggy smell but its not old or rancid, its more noticable in the unglled. Both have small spots of DOS.
Once again, the ungelled has the better lather. Larger bubbles quicker that break down to a beautiful cream. I like these better then the farmers john.


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## LittleCrazyWolf (Apr 23, 2015)

I’ve been sitting on my samples (not literally) for a while because my seasonal allergies kicked in big time. My sense of smell is finally starting to come back as I relearn how to breathe through my nose (thank you Zyrtec) so I wanted to report back.
First, Carolyn, thank you so much for the samples. The FO is very interesting and I’m planning to use it in a small batch this week. It smells really good OOB so I can’t wait to see how it smells soaped. I liked the Dragon's Blood sample bar, it was a little too cleansing for me (dry skin) but the lather was bubbly and felt nice during use. I've never smelled Dragon's Blood before and assumed it would be overpowering but this is mellow and has a depth that I wasn't expecting. I'm going to use it up as a hand bar.
I tested the #2 Farmer John Lard samples first.
Gelled sample had small spots of DOS on the points while the ungelled sample was completely orange. Both samples lathered quickly with small bubbles that very turned dense and foamy. I like the ungelled better because the lather just felt nicer. Both samples rinsed clean easily. My skin did not feel tight/dry after drying off and actually felt much better than before using the soaps.
Next I tried the #5 Butcher Rendered Lard.
Gelled sample had more spots of DOS than the Farmer John gelled sample while the ungelled sample had much less DOS than the Farmer John ungelled sample. Results were basically the same as above.
Overall impression of the lard samples…all were hard but had a slight tacky feeling and a musky scent that faded significantly after being used and left out in the open (Farmer John gelled has faded completely to just a soapy scent). I did not detect a piggy odor in any of them. The ungelled samples smelled stronger than the gelled but not in a bad way. I guess DOS does not make soap smell gross and rotten to me (not surprised, I once found a bar that I had misplaced for a couple of years and it had DOS all over but never smelled rancid to me). My favorite was the ungelled Butcher Rendered Lard because it seemed like the soap lathered more quickly and the lather was the most rich and dense. 
#4 Smart and Final Tallow Shortening Gelled
This sample had slight DOS, has that same musky scent (hasn’t faded yet but I only unwrapped it today so it hasn’t had much time), was very hard and smooth and had an almost pearly translucent quality after the lather dried on the bar. The lather was similar to the gelled lard samples but wasn’t as nice, definitely not as dense. Rinsed clean easily. My skin didn’t feel tight but didn’t feel as nice as after using the lard samples. 

#3 Fresh Tallow with Hardwood FO
Soap was hard, smooth. No DOS. The lather had bigger bubbles than the lard samples but faded quickly and was much less creamy. I tried this a few times in a row to see if the lather would improve but it was just “thinner.” Lather rinsed cleanly and I could detect a subtle scent of the FO which was nice. 
Overall impression of the tallow samples…these were very hard and smooth. Lather was decent and definitely had more bubbles than the lard initially but did not feel as nice. 
Again, I have to thank you for sending out these samples for us to try. The tallow does make a harder, smoother bar but the lard was much gentler on my skin and had such a great creamy lather. Lard wins for me for sure.


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## cmzaha (Apr 24, 2015)

I have to agree Little CrazyWolf, I prefer the lather and feel of the lard. The Dragon's Blood samples have a cleansing value of 15  with a 4% superfat. They are to cleansing for me also, but my men customers love them. The Hardwood is my second best seller and is fantastic mixed with heavy florals such as jasmine


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## new12soap (Apr 24, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> The fragrance is one of my very best sellers and is a great mixer with floral fo's. The original supplier of it closed due to illness so I ended up having it duped. It actually turned out even nicer than the original. Unfortunately even with the purchase of 10 lbs it is an expensive fragrance. Hope you enjoy it



Would you mind if I ask where you had it duped? The only place I know of, one friend had success with them, but another soaper had a terrible experience with them, so I would love to find a supplier that I could recommend for dupes.


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## cmzaha (Apr 25, 2015)

new12soap said:


> Would you mind if I ask where you had it duped? The only place I know of, one friend had success with them, but another soaper had a terrible experience with them, so I would love to find a supplier that I could recommend for dupes.


I would love to know of a place myself. This is through a supplier I know that once in awhile he will send in some for me like he is planning on stocking a fragrance, and I do not have a clue what fragrance manufacturing house he uses. It probably would not do me any good if I did know since they most likely will not work with someone that is not a fo supplier. Can you pm me who you tried, since there are a couple I considered trying. Wish I could help you out but I just lucked out that he had it done for me


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 12, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> Just a quick update. Think you might be surprised with these soap samples. I know everyone must have thought I have forgotten but alas I have not. The non-gelled lard soap samples with 3% superfat are total orange (dos?) but no off smell. The gelled are now starting to turn these were made on 1/242015. I will be packaging all seperate with notes included. All the soapies were made the same with either 100% tallow, distilled water and citric acid at 1% for chelating, extra lye at 0.624. I am really beginning to wonder about lard. This was rendered lard from a local Hispanic market. The tallow samples are holding up great



I've thought about this thread from time to time since I read it. Wouldn't you suspect your results with the yellowing lard soap are due to an impurity, perhaps from improper rendering?

Experiments were done long ago that demonstrated very short induction times for catalytic oxidation when liquid extracted from muscle was added to lard, or when it was contaminated with iron-rich hemoglobin from blood.

We know there are many different types and sources of lard. Maybe this is a bit of a soaping hazard due to the variability of the product.

It would be good to narrow down a cause for the oxidation, because it seems unlikely that it's an inherent property of the oil. Your results are amazingly dramatic while others experience nothing out of the ordinary.


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## newbie (Jun 12, 2015)

Carolyn, did you chart other people's finding? I know there was a question about whether your gelled and ungelled were mixed up and I am having trouble following who is saying what about which. 

One thing I am curious about is that I have found that bars with DOS, early is best before it stinks, seems to lather more abundantly than the same bar without. It makes be wonder if the process of DOS breaks things down such that it actually improves the lather. Not a scientific study, unfortunately.

Also, people are noting a difference in lather between gelled and ungelled. Since there may have been a mix-up, I'm wondering if this was consistent and which seems to have better lather, truly ungelled or gelled or the ones labeled as such? If there is a consistent difference, why? They should all end up with their molecules organized the same (there was talk about that structure on a different thread) in the end, but maybe they don't really. And which one ended up with such bad DOS, really gelled or ungelled, or the labeled ungelled or gelled?


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## not_ally (Jun 12, 2015)

I still wonder about why so many of those lard soaps got DOS, especially b/c they were made w/different brands so from different purchase lots.  I have only been using high lards amounts - min. 60%, usually higher -  for about 4 months, but not a single bar has a speck of DOS so far.  Fingers crossed.

My SF is considerably higher than yours, too, Carolyn, b/w 7-8%, you would think that would make it worse.  And we are pretty close by each other geographically, I think, so I don't know if humidity would make a difference, although maybe there are some slight differences there.  I do mix some other oils in, some coconut, olive/avocado and a bit of castor, I would if it is the fact that the lard was totally unadulterated that factored in somehow?  Have your regular, ie; non tester/single-oil lard soaps gotten much DOS?

Anyway, kind of mystifying.


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## JBot (Jun 12, 2015)

newbie said:


> Since there may have been a mix-up, I'm wondering if this was consistent and which seems to have better lather, truly ungelled or gelled or the ones labeled as such? If there is a consistent difference, why? They should all end up with their molecules organized the same (there was talk about that structure on a different thread) in the end, but maybe they don't really.



Anybody know where I can find that thread?  I'm extremely interested, I'd love to read it!


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## not_ally (Jun 12, 2015)

Jane, I believe it is this one, just earlier on.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 12, 2015)

not_ally said:


> I still wonder about why so many of those lard soaps got DOS, especially b/c they were made w/different brands so from different purchase lots.



I'm thinking mostly of the ones that turned yellow entirely and pretty much right away. I think those might have had a particular lard in common. The factors that we normally consider just can't do that with an unadulterated oil, so I think that reasonably leaves just contamination in the product or the process as a possibility. A problem with rendering, blood, a copper vessel or plumbing, I dunno but something like that. Or oil that was rancid to begin with, though that should have been detectable.


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## rosche (Jul 6, 2015)

Hello, is lard/tallow shortening the same as ghee?


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## Susie (Jul 6, 2015)

No.  Ghee is clarified butter(made from the fat of milk), and makes stinky soap.  Lard is pig fat.  Tallow is the fat of almost everything else, but usually refers to cow fat.


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## not_ally (Jul 6, 2015)

No, ghee is clarified butter (from cows), lard is rendered/purified fat from pig meat, and tallow is rendered/purified fat from cow meat.


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## cmzaha (Jul 6, 2015)

newbie said:


> Carolyn, did you chart other people's finding? I know there was a question about whether your gelled and ungelled were mixed up and I am having trouble following who is saying what about which.
> 
> One thing I am curious about is that I have found that bars with DOS, early is best before it stinks, seems to lather more abundantly than the same bar without. It makes be wonder if the process of DOS breaks things down such that it actually improves the lather. Not a scientific study, unfortunately.
> 
> Also, people are noting a difference in lather between gelled and ungelled. Since there may have been a mix-up, I'm wondering if this was consistent and which seems to have better lather, truly ungelled or gelled or the ones labeled as such? If there is a consistent difference, why? They should all end up with their molecules organized the same (there was talk about that structure on a different thread) in the end, but maybe they don't really. And which one ended up with such bad DOS, really gelled or ungelled, or the labeled ungelled or gelled?


The one's I send out were correct and labeled correctly. I redid the test that I thought was incorrect before sending out the samples. The gelled and un-gelled were labeled correctly. Just out of my curious nature I am going to run the test again. Every one of mine are now yellow although the tallow are the least yellow. Still none of mine really stink, but the lard ones smell like the lard when it is in the bucket


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## cmzaha (Jul 6, 2015)

topofmurrayhill said:


> I'm thinking mostly of the ones that turned yellow entirely and pretty much right away. I think those might have had a particular lard in common. The factors that we normally consider just can't do that with an unadulterated oil, so I think that reasonably leaves just contamination in the product or the process as a possibility. A problem with rendering, blood, a copper vessel or plumbing, I dunno but something like that. Or oil that was rancid to begin with, though that should have been detectable.


Other than 1 tallow which I rendered was purchased and Not contaminated here. Last week I ran some palm shortening versus palm oil to see what happens. I am going to run some Smart & Final lard only and see what happens. Previous I used rendered lard from a butcher and Farmer John lard


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## Obsidian (Jul 6, 2015)

Carolyn, I sent one of my 100% lard samples to you in the liquid swap box. I made them shortly after you sent your samples out and they have been on the curing rack this entire time. Not a spot of DOS, they are super hard, bright white and ungelled. I'm really curious to see if they get DOS in your conditions. I used armour brand lard.


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## Susie (Jul 6, 2015)

OOOOoooohhhh!!!!  100% lard soaps!  *Wanders off wondering if her hubby would notice more soap...*


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## cmzaha (Jul 6, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> Carolyn, I sent one of my 100% lard samples to you in the liquid swap box. I made them shortly after you sent your samples out and they have been on the curing rack this entire time. Not a spot of DOS, they are super hard, bright white and ungelled. I'm really curious to see if they get DOS in your conditions. I used armour brand lard.


I am going to look for some Armour Lard and see if it makes a difference. When I first started soaping 5yrs ago I used Snowcap lard from Wallyworld and still have my first 100% lard I made with it. I do not remember who makes the Snowcap. I am going to re-do some samples with as many different lards that I can find. Thankyou for including a sample I am anxious to get my box and will put the sample on the same rack in the same area as mine were in. Just a note I stearlized the racks in-case dos decides to be contagious...


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## jules92207 (Jul 6, 2015)

I use armour most of the time as well. I hope it makes a difference for you. I would also be happy to send out some 100% lard bars for testing purposes.


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