# Chives in Soap?



## MooMac (Jun 23, 2021)

Hey all!
I am still crafting my flagship initial soap and I'm thinking about putting chives in it. Would I have to worry about spoilage? How should I do it. What's been your experience in how it can affect the soap? Thoughts?

Context: lye based soap using tallow, macadamia oil, coconut oil, maybe avocado too...salt, citric acid, and turmeric are current add ins considered.

Thank you for any and all input!

MooMac


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## Quanta (Jun 23, 2021)

Are you going to grind it into a powder first? If so, then a small amount is probably ok. You probably won't be able to smell it but it might look interesting.

If you're going to leave it in bigger pieces, botanicals like that will turn an unappealing color when the soap is used. They get soggy and fall out into the sink, too. I wouldn't do it. It might look nice initially, but if the soap is meant to be used (as opposed to looking pretty in a fancy soap dish in the guest bathroom) then don't put botanicals in it.

And I'm just going to say now, especially don't use lavender buds. They will look like mouse poop.


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## TheGecko (Jun 23, 2021)

Finely chopped dried would probably be okay, but fresh chives…no.  The Sodium Hydroxide will turn it black and it will rot.


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## MooMac (Jun 23, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Are you going to grind it into a powder first? If so, then a small amount is probably ok. You probably won't be able to smell it but it might look interesting.
> 
> If you're going to leave it in bigger pieces, botanicals like that will turn an unappealing color when the soap is used. They get soggy and fall out into the sink, too. I wouldn't do it. It might look nice initially, but if the soap is meant to be used (as opposed to looking pretty in a fancy soap dish in the guest bathroom) then don't put botanicals in it.
> 
> And I'm just going to say now, especially don't use lavender buds. They will look like mouse poop.


I see, thank you! I will do my best to avoid the mouse poop haha



TheGecko said:


> Finely chopped dried would probably be okay, but fresh chives…no.  The Sodium Hydroxide will turn it black and it will rot.


I see! I wonder if powdered keeps chives positive qualities


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## Quanta (Jun 23, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see! I wonder if powdered keeps chives positive qualities


Whatever positive qualities chives have will probably be destroyed by the high pH of the lye. That's why you probably won't be able to smell it once the soap is cured.


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## Ford (Jun 24, 2021)

I put calendula petals and lavender buds on the soaps. Lower right of pic. You can see how the humidity affected them. Tumeric and spinula used for coloring has faded also. FWIW


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## TheGecko (Jun 24, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see! I wonder if powdered keeps chives positive qualities



Two things you need to understand about soap:  1) It is a wash on/rinse on product that doesn't stay on your skin very long.  A soap that is "moisturizing", doesn't really moisturize skin, it simply doesn't strip the skin of all its natural oils.  2) Sodium Hydroxide is a caustic substance and it, along with the process of saponification, which changes the oils and butters into soap, destroys the majority of any benefit that may be in the ingredients.  It is why it is recommended to save the expensive oils and ingredients for lotions...that stay on the skin.

Powdered chives may at best, turn your soap some shade of green, but as with a lot of 'natural' colorants, it will also fade with time.


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## maryloucb (Jun 24, 2021)

I thought it would be great to put "stuff" in soap, but it turns out it's not, really. Unless it's something finely ground, or a type of clay, it turns brown, is scratchy and just goes down the drain. If you want to see for yourself, do a small batch.


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## MooMac (Jun 24, 2021)

Ford said:


> I put calendula petals and lavender buds on the soaps. Lower right of pic. You can see how the humidity affected them. Tumeric and spinula used for coloring has faded also. FWIWView attachment 58770


I see, thank you!


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## MooMac (Jun 24, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Two things you need to understand about soap:  1) It is a wash on/rinse on product that doesn't stay on your skin very long.  A soap that is "moisturizing", doesn't really moisturize skin, it simply doesn't strip the skin of all its natural oils.  2) Sodium Hydroxide is a caustic substance and it, along with the process of saponification, which changes the oils and butters into soap, destroys the majority of any benefit that may be in the ingredients.  It is why it is recommended to save the expensive oils and ingredients for lotions...that stay on the skin.
> 
> Powdered chives may at best, turn your soap some shade of green, but as with a lot of 'natural' colorants, it will also fade with time.


That makes sense, thank you for sharing! I suppose chives would be better used in a lotion then


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## MooMac (Jun 24, 2021)

maryloucb said:


> I thought it would be great to put "stuff" in soap, but it turns out it's not, really. Unless it's something finely ground, or a type of clay, it turns brown, is scratchy and just goes down the drain. If you want to see for yourself, do a small batch.


I see! I was hoping ground chives powder might still have some benefit to being in soap but it looks like that's not the case.


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## Quanta (Jun 24, 2021)

MooMac said:


> That makes sense, thank you for sharing! I suppose chives would be better used in a lotion then


No, not really. Botanicals are more easily preserved in a high pH product like soap, and really, really difficult to preserve in lotions. You'll get mold pretty quickly with chives in lotion.


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## maryloucb (Jun 24, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see! I was hoping ground chives powder might still have some benefit to being in soap but it looks like that's not the case.


If you dry them and grind them to a powder, then that could work. I would just suggest experimenting with small batches to see if you get the effect you are after.


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## MooMac (Jun 24, 2021)

Quanta said:


> No, not really. Botanicals are more easily preserved in a high pH product like soap, and really, really difficult to preserve in lotions. You'll get mold pretty quickly with chives in lotion.


So far it seems people are suggesting it would be ineffective in soap, I suppose I'll try powdered and/or perhaps boil chives and use the water in my soap


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## Quanta (Jun 24, 2021)

MooMac said:


> So far it seems people are suggesting it would be ineffective in soap, I suppose I'll try powdered and/or perhaps boil chives and use the water in my soap


You can try infusing oils. Search the forums for it and you'll find threads on how to do it.


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## MooMac (Jun 24, 2021)

Quanta said:


> You can try infusing oils. Search the forums for it and you'll find threads on how to do it.


Thank you very much!


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 24, 2021)

We've all been down the road of putting stuff in our soap - it's all fair game when we start out.  Having said that - if you grind, infuse or whatever else to include the item so that it doesn't discolour, look like mouse poop, or become scratchy or rancid, then that can add to label appeal even if the properties don't withstand the lye torture chamber.  I always include either aloe juice, coconut milk, rice water or oat milk in my soap - all of which are effectively just adding sugars (and maybe some extra superfat) but my customers draw their own conclusions on the 'benefits' of said additives even though I never make any claims.


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## MooMac (Jun 24, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> We've all been down the road of putting stuff in our soap - it's all fair game when we start out.  Having said that - if you grind, infuse or whatever else to include the item so that it doesn't discolour, look like mouse poop, or become scratchy or rancid, then that can add to label appeal even if the properties don't withstand the lye torture chamber.  I always include either aloe juice, coconut milk, rice water or oat milk in my soap - all of which are effectively just adding sugars (and maybe some extra superfat) but my customers draw their own conclusions on the 'benefits' of said additives even though I never make any claims.


Insightful, thank you. I've been thinking of adding coconut milk and/or aloe vera into my soap as well...but you're saying it's unlikely qualities make it past the lye? Even if added after much of the lye reaction in hot soap? I'd like to have intentional ingredients but if I'm not sure and customers are sure they like it, that's compelling


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## Quanta (Jun 24, 2021)

MooMac said:


> Insightful, thank you. I've been thinking of adding coconut milk and/or aloe vera into my soap as well...but you're saying it's unlikely qualities make it past the lye? Even if added after much of the lye reaction in hot soap? I'd like to have intentional ingredients but if I'm not sure and customers are sure they like it, that's compelling


If your soap is still fluid enough to get it into a mold, saponification is still going on and the pH is still very high. Even if you cooked it. That's why you're supposed to wear gloves while working with it.


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## artemis (Jun 25, 2021)

MooMac said:


> Insightful, thank you. I've been thinking of adding coconut milk and/or aloe vera into my soap as well...but you're saying it's unlikely qualities make it past the lye?



Well... The qualities of the original ingredient often don't make it past the lye monster. However, there are other qualities that ingredients can give to your soap. The sugars in the coconut milk can help make a nice lather, for example.  

For most things you might want to add, you can search the forum to see others' experiences. Chives was new to me, though.

BTW, scratchy isn't always a bad thing-- gardener's and mechanic's soaps often have a scratchy element to help with scrubbing.


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## TheGecko (Jun 25, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I suppose chives would be better used in a lotion then



Doubtful.  You can't use fresh chives, they will rot.  You might be able to use a distillation as your water portion and you might be able to use it in powdered form for coloration and maybe as an exfoliant.


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## AliOop (Jun 25, 2021)

Another concern is that the chive smell is not something I’d want on me - not from soap, and definitely not from lotion. I’m guessing most people would feel the same.


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## maryloucb (Jun 25, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Another concern is that the chive smell is not something I’d want on me - not from soap, and definitely not from lotion. I’m guessing most people would feel the same.


Agreed. It does seem like an odd additive for soap or lotion. I use thyme, rosemary and other herbs, but I don't think the oniony smell of chives would appeal to most people.


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## MooMac (Jun 25, 2021)

artemis said:


> Well... The qualities of the original ingredient often don't make it past the lye monster. However, there are other qualities that ingredients can give to your soap. The sugars in the coconut milk can help make a nice lather, for example.
> 
> For most things you might want to add, you can search the forum to see others' experiences. Chives was new to me, though.
> 
> BTW, scratchy isn't always a bad thing-- gardener's and mechanic's soaps often have a scratchy element to help with scrubbing.


I see! I'm curious, how would adding ingredients during a re-melt and pour do? Could you retain some of their non-mechanical qualities then?


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## MooMac (Jun 25, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Another concern is that the chive smell is not something I’d want on me - not from soap, and definitely not from lotion. I’m guessing most people would feel the same.


I'm not as interested in the smell as I am the components in chives. But I also think that slightly pungent smells or strong smells can accent other scents when added as a small note. I haven't experimented with it yet so I'm not sure.


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## AliOop (Jun 25, 2021)

MooMac said:


> But I also think that slightly pungent smells or strong smells can accent other scents when added as a small note.


I can agree to a certain extent, but not onion (chive) smell, nor would I put garlic in soap. But hey, I'm not one who is bothered by neem, whereas many are. Different strokes, and you do you.


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## MooMac (Jun 25, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I can agree to a certain extent, but not onion (chive) smell, nor would I put garlic in soap. But hey, I'm not one who is bothered by neem, whereas many are. Different strokes, and you do you.


Haha I'll let everyone know if for some reason people are now distancing 12 feet instead of 6 feet when I'm around


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## TheGecko (Jun 26, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see! I'm curious, how would adding ingredients during a re-melt and pour do? Could you retain some of their non-mechanical qualities then?



No...you can't add any 'fresh' ingredients.  You have the same restrictions as with Cold or Hot Process and further restrictions, like adding milks and purees, because the saponification process has already been completed.  You could add powdered or finely chopped dried chives as an exfoliant, but not as a colorant.  I checked several soap suppliers to see if powders, oxides, pigments and/or clay were included in the colorants for M&P and they are not.  Just Micas, Color Blocks and Lab Colors.


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## MooMac (Jun 26, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> No...you can't add any 'fresh' ingredients.  You have the same restrictions as with Cold or Hot Process and further restrictions, like adding milks and purees, because the saponification process has already been completed.  You could add powdered or finely chopped dried chives as an exfoliant, but not as a colorant.  I checked several soap suppliers to see if powders, oxides, pigments and/or clay were included in the colorants for M&P and they are not.  Just Micas, Color Blocks and Lab Colors.


Ah because it's the saponification that makes milk and other ingredients into versions that won't spoil as easily, less reactive because it already reacts with the lye? So adding fresh ingredients after the soap is fully reacted would just have little bits of spoiled or rancid ingredients in it...is that right? How does one add fresh ingredients into lotions etc. then to preserve their properties but not spoil?


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## TheGecko (Jun 26, 2021)

MooMac said:


> Ah because it's the saponification that makes milk and other ingredients into versions that won't spoil as easily, less reactive because it already reacts with the lye?



It's not just the lye binding to the oils, it's also heat created. Think of soap making like baking. So I make a Pumpkin Pie...pumpkin puree, eggs, milk; if I just leave it, it's going to spoiled, rancid, moldy mess. But apply XX heat for XX time, it changes the mixture into some very yummy. But even then...after a certain amount of time it's gong to turn into a spoiled, rancid, moldy mess.



> So adding fresh ingredients after the soap is fully reacted would just have little bits of spoiled or rancid ingredients in it...is that right?



Yep



> How does one add fresh ingredients into lotions etc. then to preserve their properties but not spoil?



By adding a preservative; there are lots of them out there and they are generally divided into water-based and oil-based.  And yes, even if your product doesn't contain water, if there is a potential for water to be added to it, you want to add a preservative.  And example of this would be a foot scrub that is used around the tub/shower.


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## Quanta (Jun 26, 2021)

MooMac said:


> How does one add fresh ingredients into lotions etc. then to preserve their properties but not spoil?


The short answer is, you don't. At least not in large quantities. If you want to add anything botanical to a lotion formula, I would suggest you only use a paraben blend or a formaldehyde releaser as your preservative at the maximum safe percentage, because anything else will give you an unfeasibly short shelf life. Both of these types of preservatives are readily available to the home crafter. Parabens in particular are my personal choice due to the fact that they are unparalleled in their safety and efficacy. We literally have 100 years of data on their use and none of that data backs up the recent claim that they are unsafe.

Do not use a so-called "natural" preservative because it will not be strong enough to preserve botanicals unless you use massive amounts, which increases the risk of negative reactions due to large amounts of preservatives.

In case you don't already know, grapefruit seed extract, rosemary oleoresin, and vitamin E are not preservatives. Vitamin E and rosemary oleoresin are antioxidants only and aren't even necessary for all oils. The nature of grapefruit seed extract requires preservatives added to it after extraction, and it is these preservatives that are responsible for any antimicrobial activity attributed to it.


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## MooMac (Jun 26, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> It's not just the lye binding to the oils, it's also heat created. Think of soap making like baking. So I make a Pumpkin Pie...pumpkin puree, eggs, milk; if I just leave it, it's going to spoiled, rancid, moldy mess. But apply XX heat for XX time, it changes the mixture into some very yummy. But even then...after a certain amount of time it's gong to turn into a spoiled, rancid, moldy mess.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, this makes a lot of sense


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## MooMac (Jun 26, 2021)

Quanta said:


> The short answer is, you don't. At least not in large quantities. If you want to add anything botanical to a lotion formula, I would suggest you only use a paraben blend or a formaldehyde releaser as your preservative at the maximum safe percentage, because anything else will give you an unfeasibly short shelf life. Both of these types of preservatives are readily available to the home crafter. Parabens in particular are my personal choice due to the fact that they are unparalleled in their safety and efficacy. We literally have 100 years of data on their use and none of that data backs up the recent claim that they are unsafe.
> 
> Do not use a so-called "natural" preservative because it will not be strong enough to preserve botanicals unless you use massive amounts, which increases the risk of negative reactions due to large amounts of preservatives.
> 
> In case you don't already know, grapefruit seed extract, rosemary oleoresin, and vitamin E are not preservatives. Vitamin E and rosemary oleoresin are antioxidants only and aren't even necessary for all oils. The nature of grapefruit seed extract requires preservatives added to it after extraction, and it is these preservatives that are responsible for any antimicrobial activity attributed to it.


I see. What about the supposed natural antimicrobial and antioxidant properties of ginger, turmeric, onions, garlic, cocoa, honey, cinnamon etc.? Not strong enough to make the self life of a product extent into a reasonable amount for production?


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## TheGecko (Jun 26, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see. What about the supposed natural antimicrobial and antioxidant properties of ginger, turmeric, onions, garlic, cocoa, honey, cinnamon etc.? Not strong enough to make the self life of a product extent into a reasonable amount for production?



Now we have come full circle when I said on the first page:  "_2) Sodium Hydroxide is a caustic substance and it, along with the process of saponification, which changes the oils and butters into soap, destroys the majority of any benefit that may be in the ingredients._"

And fair warning about cinnamon...NOT something you want on your lady bits (or man bits either).

Soap, by its nature, kills germs. It's why handwashing is so effective. It doesn't matter if the soap is made from lard or tallow, olive oil or coconut or some exotic oil hand pressed by sky-clad virgin during the blue moon of the second Tuesday of the week.

Most of the stuff that is added to soap, and I speak as someone who makes Goat Milk Soap and who adds Kaolin Clay religiously to every soap I make, does it really make for a 'better' bar of soap than if I didn't use...not really. I use fresh goat milk from a farm. Is is 'better' than powdered Goat Milk, is it better that store bought Goat Milk, is it better than evaporated (canned) Goat Milk. No. No. Yes...but only as far as color is concerned. And yeah, I use Cocoa in my Chocolate Espresso soap...it makes for a nice 'mica line' and looks pretty sprinkled on top.

There are quite a few soap makers that add a lot of extra stuff to their soap...goat milk powder, buttermilk powder, coconut cream, tussah silk, sugar, salt, honey, aloe vera, colloidal oats, various purees, extracts, powders and clays...a lot of it is 'label appeal', but adds to real 'value' to the soap...it's still soap.  Sure Turmeric has a lot of nutritional and medicinal properties, but you don't eat soap...which is why it is strictly used as a natural colorant.  It's the same with Bee Pollen, Beet Root, Tomato, Pumpkin, Rosehip, Spinach, etc.


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## Quanta (Jun 26, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see. What about the supposed natural antimicrobial and antioxidant properties of ginger, turmeric, onions, garlic, cocoa, honey, cinnamon etc.? Not strong enough to make the self life of a product extent into a reasonable amount for production?


I know this is a long post, but it is very important information for what you're trying to do so please read it and consider.

In soap, those things are fine, if fresh ingredients are dried first. But don't use cinnamon, which can be irritating on skin. I wouldn't use that in soap anyway, especially the essential oil which will give you soap-on-a-stick lickety split.

However, all of those things, in lotion, will require stronger preservatives to prevent them inviting germs into your lotion. Some of those thing you list can only be used in very small quantities because germs looooove eating those things. For example, yeast loves to eat honey, which is how mead is made. You do _not _want yeast in your lotion. Honey only lasts indefinitely if there is not enough water in it for things to grow. Lotion absolutely has enough water in it (60-80%) for all kinds of germs to thrive. And so, if you put honey in lotion, you need to add a preservative that is effective against yeast, and against whatever else likes to eat honey. Same for the others. 

Some of the things you list are basically vegetables. Some vegetables will last a little longer in storage than others, and I believe it is this feature you are referring to as "antimicrobial". But, they don't preserve things you add them to, they only preserve _themselves _(some veggies and fruits actually contain a small amount of naturally occurring parabens). But, they will never ever preserve themselves for the length of time you'd need them to in a lotion, even if they did preserve things you add them to. If you put the things you list in a container on your kitchen countertop, they will get moldy and rot in a matter of days or weeks, certainly not the 1 year+ you'd need in a lotion. If you are using a dried version, put some in a jar of water (to simulate being in a lotion) and watch it still get moldy. If you put them in a lotion without a preservative, they _will _get moldy. Even worse, bacteria will grow in it and that is much, much harder to detect without sending it to a lab for testing. Bacteria in lotion can make you very sick. A good preservative can keep your lotion good for about a year. A lotion with a lot of botanical ingredients like the ones you list, probably less than a year but still long enough to use it up before it went bad.

Some things only have antimicrobial properties under very specific circumstances. Take Tea Tree essential oil for instance. If you use it neat, it can kill some types of germs. But once you dilute it into lotion at customary usage percentages, its antimicrobial activity is completely negated and will actually accelerate the growth of microorganisms, necessitating the use of preservatives. I don't know why it works like that but it has been laboratory verified. All the things you list, will not preserve anything but rather require something to preserve them.

I know this probably is not what you want to hear, but it is what it is. You need to be well equipped with the facts before you make lotions, so that you can make a safe product. Safety is above all. What good is a lotion that ends up giving you a severe skin infection?

Out of curiosity, what skin benefits do you believe there are in plants from the Allium family? When I cook with the stuff, I can't wait to get it off my hands when I'm done chopping.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 27, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see. What about the supposed natural antimicrobial and antioxidant properties of ginger, turmeric, onions, garlic, cocoa, honey, cinnamon etc.? Not strong enough to make the self life of a product extent into a reasonable amount for production?



No they're not effective preservatives or antioxidants for bath and body products. If any of these ingredients was truly an effective preservative for this purpose, you would find it on various lists of effective preservatives. None are. Here's a resource to help you learn about this issue -- Preservative Reviews

Antioxidants that function well for humans aren't necessarily antioxidants that effectively protect fats from oxidation and rancidity. For example, polyunsaturated oils often have high levels of tocopherols (vitamin E), which is a useful antioxidant in the human diet, but thse fats usually have short shelf lives. The tocopherols naturally found in these fats obviously don't do a good job of protecting these fats from rancidity ... but roesmary oleoresin (ROE) does.

Honey is self preserving ONLY if it is NOT DILUTED with anything else -- it HAS to contain no more than about 18% water content to be self preserving. If you add more water to honey to dilute the sugars, the honey will happily grow mold or bacteria or ferment; that's how we get mead (honey wine). Honey has no intrinsic "preservative magic" due to it's being made by bees. Any sugar solution is self preserving if it is sufficiently concentrated -- it's the high concentration of sugars that is the self preserving feature. Salts do the same thing -- concentrated salt preserves stuff; a little salt does not. A property called "water activity" is the principle here.


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## MooMac (Jun 27, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Now we have come full circle when I said on the first page:  "_2) Sodium Hydroxide is a caustic substance and it, along with the process of saponification, which changes the oils and butters into soap, destroys the majority of any benefit that may be in the ingredients._"
> 
> And fair warning about cinnamon...NOT something you want on your lady bits (or man bits either).
> 
> ...


Thank you very much, I can feel that I need to shift my perspective on soap now but I understand more as well. I appreciate you taking the time!


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## MooMac (Jun 27, 2021)

Quanta said:


> I know this is a long post, but it is very important information for what you're trying to do so please read it and consider.
> 
> In soap, those things are fine, if fresh ingredients are dried first. But don't use cinnamon, which can be irritating on skin. I wouldn't use that in soap anyway, especially the essential oil which will give you soap-on-a-stick lickety split.
> 
> ...


This has definitely opened my eyes. I was under the impression that foods which are shown to boost immunity, decrease inflammation, and in general help against oxidation and negative microbes when consumed would do similarly when mixed and applied to the skin. A basic assumption that I can see now does not line up with the complexity involved. I assumed many manufacturers did not use such ingredients because of price, but as there would be a market I see it has more to do with viability as well. I appreciate the explanation, thank you


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## MooMac (Jun 27, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> No they're not effective preservatives or antioxidants for bath and body products. If any of these ingredients was truly an effective preservative for this purpose, you would find it on various lists of effective preservatives. None are. Here's a resource to help you learn about this issue -- Preservative Reviews
> 
> Antioxidants that function well for humans aren't necessarily antioxidants that effectively protect fats from oxidation and rancidity. For example, polyunsaturated oils often have high levels of tocopherols (vitamin E), which is a useful antioxidant in the human diet, but thse fats usually have short shelf lives. The tocopherols naturally found in these fats obviously don't do a good job of protecting these fats from rancidity ... but roesmary oleoresin (ROE) does.
> 
> Honey is self preserving ONLY if it is NOT DILUTED with anything else -- it HAS to contain no more than about 18% water content to be self preserving. If you add more water to honey to dilute the sugars, the honey will happily grow mold or bacteria or ferment; that's how we get mead (honey wine). Honey has no intrinsic "preservative magic" due to it's being made by bees. Any sugar solution is self preserving if it is sufficiently concentrated -- it's the high concentration of sugars that is the self preserving feature. Salts do the same thing -- concentrated salt preserves stuff; a little salt does not. A property called "water activity" is the principle here.


Ahh, thank you very much. I will be reviewing these lists and looking into the water activity principle. I never knew why these high concentrations had these effects! I have a lot of research to do, thank you


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## TheGecko (Jun 27, 2021)

MooMac said:


> Thank you very much, I can feel that I need to shift my perspective on soap now but I understand more as well. I appreciate you taking the time!



It's no problem at all.  There is more than plenty of soap to go around, so it defeats the purpose of not encouraging or providing you with the information you need to be the best that you can be.



> This has definitely opened my eyes. I was under the impression that foods which are shown to boost immunity, decrease inflammation, and in general help against oxidation and negative microbes when consumed would do similarly when mixed and applied to the skin.



Yes, no, maybe.  Soap...no; it's simply not on the skin long enough...along with the whole caustic soda and saponification.  And while lotions are a leave-on products thus you can get the benefit, you also have to remember that they are also 70%-80% water which means that the benefit has been by 70%-80%...actually more because there are other other ingredients.  To take @DeeAnna's example of honey just a step further...we know that honey has anti-oxidant, anti-bacterial and anti-inflammatory properties.  It can be put on wounds to promote rapid and improved healing...my Grandma used it all the time.  But if I add a bunch of water to it, the only thing it's good for is sweet tea.

And there is a big difference between ingesting something, and putting it on your skin. Our skin is composed of three layers...the Epidermis, Dermis and Subcutaneous Layer. Pretty much everyone we put on our skin never makes it past the Epidermis and that is because the Epidermis is a natural barrier. It's what protects us against germs and other nasties, it's why washing our hands with soap and water is so beneficial. Orange Juice contains a ton of Vitamin C, but even if I fill the tub with it and soak in it for three hours, I will not get any benefit. I need to actually ingest it.


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## MooMac (Jun 27, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> It's no problem at all.  There is more than plenty of soap to go around, so it defeats the purpose of not encouraging or providing you with the information you need to be the best that you can be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh wow, I thought you could absorb some vitamins or nutrients through the skin potentially. I hear that different fats and oils have different penetrative properties, I thought perhaps those that are known to go deeper and incorporate more fully into the skin could bring some benefits along with them. I appreciate your helpfulness, I've been really impressed by the whole community on here in general. 

As for preserving some of the beneficial properties of ingredients known to be helpful on the skin, then perhaps a waterless balm may work? I think tallow doesn't spoil quickly when left out at room conditions, maybe mixing it with a stable soft oil and mixing in some dried ingredients might do.


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## TheGecko (Jun 27, 2021)

MooMac said:


> Oh wow, I thought you could absorb some vitamins or nutrients through the skin potentially. I hear that different fats and oils have different penetrative properties, I thought perhaps those that are known to go deeper and incorporate more fully into the skin could bring some benefits along with them. I appreciate your helpfulness, I've been really impressed by the whole community on here in general.
> 
> As for preserving some of the beneficial properties of ingredients known to be helpful on the skin, then perhaps a waterless balm may work? I think tallow doesn't spoil quickly when left out at room conditions, maybe mixing it with a stable soft oil and mixing in some dried ingredients might do.



I am by no means an expert. I used to sell mineral makeup and natural skin care years ago and learned a bit here and there and got to test a lot of products. And I’m looking to develop a few products myself so I am doing a lot of research myself. Diabetes plays havoc on the hands and feet and while there are some fairly decent products that help, I’d rather have something a little more ‘natural’ and less heavy.

I don’t know a lot about tallow per se, but I do know that other animal fats like butter and bacon grease will go rancid.  You can ‘can’ both and produce a stable products that will last a year.


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 28, 2021)

MooMac said:


> Oh wow, I thought you could absorb some vitamins or nutrients through the skin potentially. I hear that different fats and oils have different penetrative properties, I thought perhaps those that are known to go deeper and incorporate more fully into the skin could bring some benefits along with them. I appreciate your helpfulness, I've been really impressed by the whole community on here in general.
> 
> As for preserving some of the beneficial properties of ingredients known to be helpful on the skin, then perhaps a waterless balm may work? I think tallow doesn't spoil quickly when left out at room conditions, maybe mixing it with a stable soft oil and mixing in some dried ingredients might do.


I'd not be keen on putting unsaponified tallow on my skin - just sayin'   But cocoa butter or shea butter - yes. Have you thought about a lotion bar with your special additives?  That could work.  Search lotion bar - there's been heaps of talk lately about them. And ask @Zing  - he likes a good lotion bar apparently. I'd still be considering using a preservative of some sort though.  Not sure if ROE would work in this case - one of the more chemist-ey types on here would know.


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## The_Phoenix (Jun 28, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I'd not be keen on putting unsaponified tallow on my skin - just sayin'   But cocoa butter or shea butter - yes. Have you thought about a lotion bar with your special additives?  That could work.  Search lotion bar - there's been heaps of talk lately about them. And ask @Zing  - he likes a good lotion bar apparently. I'd still be considering using a preservative of some sort though.  Not sure if ROE would work in this case - one of the more chemist-ey types on here would know.


I’m sure to many putting tallow on your skin as a leave-on product seems gross, but it is really fantastic. Not at all greasy, absorbs readily, and works well with other lightweight oils in a salve. But yeah, I get the gross factor for some people.


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## TheGecko (Jun 28, 2021)

The_Phoenix said:


> I’m sure to many putting tallow on your skin as a leave-on product seems gross, but it is really fantastic. Not at all greasy, absorbs readily, and works well with other lightweight oils in a salve. But yeah, I get the gross factor for some people.



Growing poor and in the country, it’s less a gross factor than if the product can be used up before the tallow goes rancid.


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## earlene (Jun 28, 2021)

If you are personally fine with rubbing raw tallow into your skin, it's okay, of course.  But make sure that whatever oils you do use, will absorb without residue as quickly as you desire.

Some oils take a lot longer to absorb or leave an undesirable oily residue.  When I sit on my couch watching TV, or have to get dressed and go out, I don't want to have to wait a long time for absorption, or to have to wipe residue off my skin in order to get dressed or walk on my carpet (or hardwood floors for that matter.)


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## MooMac (Jun 28, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> I am by no means an expert. I used to sell mineral makeup and natural skin care years ago and learned a bit here and there and got to test a lot of products. And I’m looking to develop a few products myself so I am doing a lot of research myself. Diabetes plays havoc on the hands and feet and while there are some fairly decent products that help, I’d rather have something a little more ‘natural’ and less heavy.
> 
> I don’t know a lot about tallow per se, but I do know that other animal fats like butter and bacon grease will go rancid.  You can ‘can’ both and produce a stable products that will last a year.


I did not know some skin applications could help diabetes symptoms. Experience is a great foundation, I am hoping to get a lot of experience experimenting and catch up soon!


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## MooMac (Jun 28, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I'd not be keen on putting unsaponified tallow on my skin - just sayin'   But cocoa butter or shea butter - yes. Have you thought about a lotion bar with your special additives?  That could work.  Search lotion bar - there's been heaps of talk lately about them. And ask @Zing  - he likes a good lotion bar apparently. I'd still be considering using a preservative of some sort though.  Not sure if ROE would work in this case - one of the more chemist-ey types on here would know.


Yes I made a lotion bar the other day! It only stays hard in the fridge currently, I have to mess with the ratios. I use it and my skin seems to like it. Is ROE natural, would it change a products fda categorization? And I think it refers to rosemary oil extract, is that right?


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## MooMac (Jun 28, 2021)

The_Phoenix said:


> I’m sure to many putting tallow on your skin as a leave-on product seems gross, but it is really fantastic. Not at all greasy, absorbs readily, and works well with other lightweight oils in a salve. But yeah, I get the gross factor for some people.


Yes tallow is great on the skin I find! I mix tallow and macadamia oil into a balm / salve, not sure the difference, and it absorbs readily. Macadamia oil is close in composition to the oils of our skin supposedly, and tallow too. Strong combination imo, of course I might be bias with a name like MooMac.


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## MooMac (Jun 28, 2021)

earlene said:


> If you are personally fine with rubbing raw tallow into your skin, it's okay, of course.  But make sure that whatever oils you do use, will absorb without residue as quickly as you desire.
> 
> Some oils take a lot longer to absorb or leave an undesirable oily residue.  When I sit on my couch watching TV, or have to get dressed and go out, I don't want to have to wait a long time for absorption, or to have to wipe residue off my skin in order to get dressed or walk on my carpet (or hardwood floors for that matter.)


I hear that! I think tallow and macadamia absorb at record speeds, I find coconut oil takes a bit in comparison. I definitely don't want anyone to try a sample and walk away feeling icky.


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## MooMac (Jun 28, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Growing poor and in the country, it’s less a gross factor than if the product can be used up before the tallow goes rancid.


I hear tallow can last up to a year or so being left out. But I imagine heat and humidity can really change that?


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## Catscankim (Jul 5, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Soap, by its nature, kills germs. It's why handwashing is so effective. It doesn't matter if the soap is made from lard or tallow, olive oil or coconut or some exotic oil hand pressed by sky-clad virgin during the blue moon of the second Tuesday of the week.


I LOL so hard at this 

Also, if that oil was made on the second Tuesday of the WEEK, I really want some of that special oil lol.


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## Marsi (Jul 5, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see! I was hoping ground chives powder might still have some benefit to being in soap but it looks like that's not the case.



the benefit of sulphur is effective in soap for some skin conditions
the smell of sulphur survives saponification
the amount of sulphur required to be medically effective makes the soap smell disgusting IMHO

a garlic experiment








						"Tasting" garlic through your feet and aromatherapy - Tisserand Institute
					

You can taste garlic by rubbing it on your feet - but is this experiment relevant to the practice of aromatherapy and the use of essential oils?




					tisserandinstitute.org
				




the allium plant family is sulphurous
chives are part of the allium plant family
chives contain less sulphur and smell sweeter than garlic

i would be interested to hear your thoughts on chive powder in soap
i have never tried that

(no medicinal claims are allowed in my country for soap until it has been certified for theraputical use - this is an expensive process)


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## MooMac (Jul 5, 2021)

Marsi said:


> the benefit of sulphur is effective in soap for some skin conditions
> the smell of sulphur survives saponification
> the amount of sulphur required to be medically effective makes the soap smell disgusting IMHO
> 
> ...


That foot experiment was interesting! Thank you for sharing  My thoughts on chive powder aren't super developed yet. Mostly I grow chives so i want to find many uses for them. Chives seem to have benefits when consumed so I figure they may have benefits when applied. Chives solutions have been used on wounds and other ailments so that seemed promising to incorporate. I'm also trying to get an earthy, grass smell like of a prairie into my soap, I think a hint of chives would be a potential note in that.


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## Quanta (Jul 5, 2021)

Marsi said:


> (no medicinal claims are allowed in my country for soap until it has been certified for theraputical use - this is an expensive process)


Same in the USA. You would have to have a licensed drug manufacturing facility, which is different than a facility for manufacturing ordinary soap. The process for getting permission from the FDA to manufacture drugs is expensive. And when people make drug claims about their soap ("helps heal [any skin condition]") without having gone through the proper process and licensing, the FDA does step in and put a stop to it.



MooMac said:


> That foot experiment was interesting! Thank you for sharing  My thoughts on chive powder aren't super developed yet. Mostly I grow chives so i want to find many uses for them. Chives seem to have benefits when consumed so I figure they may have benefits when applied. Chives solutions have been used on wounds and other ailments so that seemed promising to incorporate. I'm also trying to get an earthy, grass smell like of a prairie into my soap, I think a hint of chives would be a potential note in that.


With modern knowledge of bacteria and other germs, and of antibiotics, I recommend _*not*_ putting chives or any other botanical mixture on open wounds. That is asking for an infection. People in the past did not know any better. They didn't know about cleaning wounds and the sterilization of bandages so they got infections anyway. There is no way to sterilize chives to the point that it's safe to put them on a wound. Even if you could, they wouldn't work nearly as well as modern antibiotics.


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## cmzaha (Jul 5, 2021)

MooMac said:


> Insightful, thank you. I've been thinking of adding coconut milk and/or aloe vera into my soap as well...but you're saying it's unlikely qualities make it past the lye? Even if added after much of the lye reaction in hot soap? I'd like to have intentional ingredients but if I'm not sure and customers are sure they like it, that's compelling


Thought a little thought, after selling literally thousands of bars of soaps my customers began reporting back after several years that my soaps progressed from fantastic to awesome. The awesome came after I dropped most additives such as aloe and milks for soaping with vinegar, sorbitol, and EDTA/sodium gluconate combination. I did continue making GM soaps for the hard-core folks that still thought GM soaps were magic, but my regular customers knew better. Anything I added other than salt in my salt bars and AC where for label appeal only.


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## MooMac (Jul 5, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Same in the USA. You would have to have a licensed drug manufacturing facility, which is different than a facility for manufacturing ordinary soap. The process for getting permission from the FDA to manufacture drugs is expensive. And when people make drug claims about their soap ("helps heal [any skin condition]") without having gone through the proper process and licensing, the FDA does step in and put a stop to it.
> 
> 
> With modern knowledge of bacteria and other germs, and of antibiotics, I recommend _*not*_ putting chives or any other botanical mixture on open wounds. That is asking for an infection. People in the past did not know any better. They didn't know about cleaning wounds and the sterilization of bandages so they got infections anyway. There is no way to sterilize chives to the point that it's safe to put them on a wound. Even if you could, they wouldn't work nearly as well as modern antibiotics.


Disheartening but makes sense!


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## MooMac (Jul 5, 2021)

cmzaha said:


> Thought a little thought, after selling literally thousands of bars of soaps my customers began reporting back after several years that my soaps progressed from fantastic to awesome. The awesome came after I dropped most additives such as aloe and milks for soaping with vinegar, sorbitol, and EDTA/sodium gluconate combination. I did continue making GM soaps for the hard-core folks that still thought GM soaps were magic, but my regular customers knew better. Anything I added other than salt in my salt bars and AC where for label appeal only.


Interesting! I've heard a lot of different opinions on adding ACV to soap, why di you use it and what do you notice? Or are you saying you use vinegar and apple cider in your soaps? Still curious on the effects that would have! On the ultimate soap hp website I think it was, they didn't seem to find any positives to using vinegar in soap except i think they said itll raise your superfat percentage by reacting with some of the lye?


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## AliOop (Jul 5, 2021)

Vinegar hardens the soap so it unmolds more cleanly. It also acts as a mild chelator, and makes the lather feel... softer? 

It does react with some of the lye, so either increase your lye amount, or decrease your superfat. Many threads here will give you the formula for doing that; some soap calculators will also adjust for using vinegar.


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## MooMac (Jul 5, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Vinegar hardens the soap so it unmolds more cleanly. It also acts as a mild chelator, and makes the lather feel... softer?
> 
> It does react with some of the lye, so either increase your lye amount, or decrease your superfat. Many threads here will give you the formula for doing that; some soap calculators will also adjust for using vinegar.


I see, I thought that website I mentioned said vinegar is not a chelator. Is it more like a sort of almost chelator? You've definitely noticed the difference when incorporating vinegar though? Thank you!


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## AliOop (Jul 5, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see, I thought that website I mentioned said vinegar is not a chelator. Is it more like a sort of almost chelator? You've definitely noticed the difference when incorporating vinegar though? Thank you!


I think the jury is out when it comes to whether it works as a mild chelator, or not. Perhaps it is recipe-dependent? When our last house had somewhat hard water, I noticed less soap scum from the soaps with vinegar, when comparing with those that did not have vinegar. So my experience is anecdotal at best, but seems to be shared by a few other soapers, as well.


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## MooMac (Jul 5, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I think the jury is out when it comes to whether it works as a mild chelator, or not. Perhaps it is recipe-dependent? When our last house had somewhat hard water, I noticed less soap scum from the soaps with vinegar, when comparing with those that did not have vinegar. So my experience is anecdotal at best, but seems to be shared by a few other soapers, as well.


I see, thank you!


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## AliOop (Jul 6, 2021)

MooMac said:


> I see, thank you!


You are welcome. FWIW, vinegar also helps with unmolding sooner. No need for salt or SL when using vinegar.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 6, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I think the jury is out when it comes to whether it works as a mild chelator, or not. Perhaps it is recipe-dependent? When our last house had somewhat hard water, I noticed less soap scum from the soaps with vinegar, when comparing with those that did not have vinegar. So my experience is anecdotal at best, but seems to be shared by a few other soapers, as well.



People sometimes wonder if  household chemicals  can be effective chelators for soap. Possibilities include table salt (sodium chloride), sodium ascorbate made from Vitamin C (ascorbic acid), sodium acetate made from the acetic acid in vinegar, and sodium lactate made from the lactic acid in fermented dairy.

Sodium acetate and sodium lactate are two household chemicals that can indeed function as chelants. They are sometimes used for that purpose in foods and medical treatments.

I do not see acetate and lactate being recommended, however, as chelants in soap or cosmetics nor for treating minerals in hard water. The chelators normally suggested for these purposes include EDTA, citrate, gluconates, GLDA, etc.

So my take on this is not every chelator is effective for all purposes. Acetate and lactate should be used in soap mainly for the other qualities they contribute, not for their chelating ability.


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## TheGecko (Jul 8, 2021)

Marsi said:


> no medicinal claims are allowed in my country for soap until it has been certified for theraputical use - this is an expensive process



While US is fairly loose when it comes to soap, you still can't make cosmetic or drug claims about your soap without coming under scrutiny of the FDA.  And while there is still some flexibility with it comes to 'cosmetic' claims (except for color additives), if you make a drug claim claim, you can end up in a lot of hot water if you aren't registered and had your products approved.  A lot of soap makers try to skirt this issue by talking about the 'benefits' of the ingredients they use, but it's not a line I want to skate around.


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## Marsi (Jul 9, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> While US is fairly loose when it comes to soap, you still can't make cosmetic or drug claims about your soap without coming under scrutiny of the FDA.  And while there is still some flexibility with it comes to 'cosmetic' claims (except for color additives), if you make a drug claim claim, you can end up in a lot of hot water if you aren't registered and had your products approved



why did you quote me?
(your fda better not be scrutinizin me and my magicestical bath soap all the way over here in my aussie bathtub )


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## AliOop (Jul 9, 2021)

Marsi said:


> why did you quote me?


I thought she was pointing out that the US rules about not making medical/drug claims for soap are very similar to the Aussie rules you mentioned.

But then again, maybe she was warning you. Do you need to be warned?


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## TheGecko (Jul 10, 2021)

Marsi said:


> why did you quote me?



Because your Aussie rules regarding medical claims are similar to our own, including the expense.



> (your fda better not be scrutinizin me and my magicestical bath soap all the way over here in my aussie bathtub )



So long as you aren't selling your soap in the US, your magicestical bath soap and Aussie bathtub should be okay.


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