# Lard vs. Soy Wax



## Dawni (Apr 13, 2019)

Back in the soy wax users thread I promised here I'd make a comparison of it against lard as a hardener, and so I did.

I decided to make two fresh soaps, so I could compare trace, molding, unmolding, curing, etc. simultaneously. I think that's a better study than comparing fresh soap to one sitting on the shelf already 2mos.

Recipe:
30% lye concentration, 3% SF, no fragrance
Soy wax/lard 40%, pomace 27%, coconut oil 18%, grapeseed oil 10%, castor oil 5%
*please note that I could not access pure soy wax and used one labeled as 444 that's apparently 98% soy wax and with a (unknown to me) soy based additive at 2%.

Procedure:
I melted both lard and soy wax in the microwave and dumped them into room temperature oils. At this time, the lye water was already mixed, with the container sitting in cold water, and I just waited for the temps to even out somewhat. My handy dandy hand told me I should proceed when I checked after 15mins. I hand stirred both - stirred, checked on the napping baby, stirred again, washed a couple of containers, stirred again. Didn't take that long.

Observations before molding:
The soy wax batter got to light trace before the lard batter did. I was mixing both by hand simultaneously. Batter color and consistency at light trace was very similar and I worried I'd mix em up lol. Should have taken pics. I mixed a lil cocoa powder for the tops of the soy ones so I can differentiate them. 

Observations after molding:
Here's where things get interesting. I purposely unmolded when I thought it was too early, at 20hrs, and both soaps stuck to the bottoms and sides. At around 30hrs the lard stuck on one side only, not at the bottom, but the soy stuck on all sides again. Unmolding at 37hrs still had the soy sticking while the lard one slid out cleanly. I, unfortunately don't have a pic of the untouched soy ones all together but here's one of the lard soap.





You can however, see the first unmolded soy soap with all its glorious ash and the stuck sides here.

Speaking of ash.. They all got it. I left them uncovered and not insulated to see what will happen. I think I got gel but you guys will have to confirm. Here's a pic of freshly molded soap side by side with a pic after about 14hrs.




At this point, at close to 44hrs since both soaps were made, I can definitely say the lard soap is firmer than the soy wax soap, which also is still tacky. I also think it's the thick ash that's tacky, since the others I cleaned aren't as much.

Color wise they've both evened out and are similar, but the soy is still slightly whiter. Yesterday the soy one was very noticeably whiter, even after I shaved off the ash. Here's pics of the tops, bottoms, and one side. 












First pic, I shaved off the sides of the soy wax soap to get to the no ash part. You can see it clearer here. Second pic, I patiently "washed" the ash away with cloth and 70% alcohol and you'll notice I even dropped this soap lol. Last pic, the soy wax soap is untouched.

Ehmm.. I don't know what else to say but if you guys ask questions I should be able to answer them. 

Sorry for the long post. I hope this helps someone lol and thanks for getting to the end haha love you guys!


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## dibbles (Apr 13, 2019)

Nice! Thanks Dawni


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## KiwiSoap (Apr 14, 2019)

Nice process and objective presentation of results  My last couple of batches of soap have been a little tacky at unmoulding but they hardened up fully in a little more time (a day or two? I didn't check often enough to say _when_ it happened). 

Will be interesting to hear how they compare over time. Thanks for the time and effort put into this and for sharing!


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## RDak (Apr 14, 2019)

Thanks Dawni!!

I hot process using the double boiler method...….I hope it will unmold more "cured" at 24 hours.


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## Dawni (Apr 14, 2019)

RDak said:


> Thanks Dawni!!
> 
> I hot process using the double boiler method...….I hope it will unmold more "cured" at 24 hours.


If anything it should be less "problematic" lol.

I'm more of a HP girl myself. I just wanted to CP this one because I foresee almost no obvious difference between the two if I were to HP these hehehe.. I'll probably experiment with the soy wax in HP next.


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## Dawni (Apr 14, 2019)

You're welcome everyone 

Check out the suds of the soy wax! I tried a very thin piece with ash that I shaved off.


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## Lin19687 (Apr 15, 2019)

That's form the CO.

Can I ask why you would use 40% wax?
I know it is a test, but 40% seems very high amount.


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## atiz (Apr 15, 2019)

Thank you @Dawni , this is great. Very helpful comparison.
I have never used soy wax, but regularly use lard -- @Lin19687 , I don't think 40% is too high for a lard soap.


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## Dawni (Apr 15, 2019)

You're welcome @atiz  


Lin19687 said:


> That's form the CO.
> 
> Can I ask why you would use 40% wax?
> I know it is a test, but 40% seems very high amount.


Well that's the recipe for the lard soap, and since this was to compare soy wax to lard as a hardener, the soy wax amount had to be 40% as well.

As for the lather, I'm just happy it's there considering I used candle wax and not 100% pure soy wax lol. And yes, I do realize it's from the coconut, I meant "soy wax soap" lol


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## penelopejane (Apr 15, 2019)

Dawni how about trying the same comparison using 33% lye concentration, soap at 110*F (42*C) and cover your soap with plastic wrap or a chopping board (to make it airtight) and leave for 24 hours or longer.


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## SunRiseArts (Apr 15, 2019)

Interesting, I never thought of using soy wax in my soaps.


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## Dawni (Jul 26, 2019)

I know this test was for hardness but I've used both soaps in the shower and the lard soap trumps the soy wax soap, for me at least, in terms of lather and "conditioning."

To be fair, they both lathered well, it was just the kind of lather that's different and of course, is personal preference. The soy wax soap had a more creamy lather while the lard soap had an in-between creamy n bubbly one.

The soy wax soap shower definitely needed a follow up with my lotion bar, and my face felt tight when I smiled lol. The lard soap did not cause any tightness, nor did I need to lotion up, but I wanted to, coz I love my lotion bars hehehe

I did not pay attention to the weather but I used these one day apart and both days felt more or less the same, in terms of heat and humidity, which means it was awfully hot n sticky both days haha

In terms of hardness, which was the reason for this experiment.. The soy wax soap has caught up now after three months. It is sticky though, because of the humidity here lately, whereas the lard soap isn't. I forgot to check on them in between, sorry.


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## SunRiseArts (Jul 27, 2019)

Thank you for sharing your experiment Dawni!  Very interesting.  I have been following your progress.


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## HowieRoll (Jul 27, 2019)

Thanks for the update!  I recently started experimenting with soy wax and only have one batch cured enough to use (the SW was 25% in place of beef tallow).  I LOVE the lather and it seems to stay more firm in the shower as compared to its beef tallow counterpart.  It's interesting you mention your skin feeling tight, and just the other day I was wondering how this soap would do during winter when the air is super dry.  Time will tell, but in the meantime, thanks again for the update because all the talk about SW on the forum the past few months (including this post) is what got me to try it in the first place and I'm glad I did!


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## Dawni (Jul 28, 2019)

HowieRoll said:


> It's interesting you mention your skin feeling tight, and just the other day I was wondering how this soap would do during winter when the air is super dry.  Time will tell, but in the meantime, thanks again for the update because all the talk about SW on the forum the past few months (including this post) is what got me to try it in the first place and I'm glad I did!


Me too! I needed a vegan alternative to lard, which I love. In terms of hardness it's fine to just switch them out, however, in terms of cleansing and conditioning it might be best to reformulate, considering the properties of each fat. I'd probably decrease my soy wax a bit and add more conditioning oils and/or butters...


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## linne1gi (Jul 28, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Back in the soy wax users thread I promised here I'd make a comparison of it against lard as a hardener, and so I did.
> 
> I decided to make two fresh soaps, so I could compare trace, molding, unmolding, curing, etc. simultaneously. I think that's a better study than comparing fresh soap to one sitting on the shelf already 2mos.
> 
> ...



Dawni,  What is your water amount?  I found that when I reduced my water, I reduced my chance of getting ash and nowadays I get almost no ash.


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## earlene (Jul 28, 2019)

I've been really lucky with my soy wax soaps in terms of no ash.  So far I have not gone about 30% soy wax and have not got ash on any of them.  My water amount tends to be lower with a 33% Lye concentration or higher most of the time.  My soy wax soaps have all been CP, so have no experience with HP soy wax soap.  But I don't recall ever getting ash on an HP soap so not sure if it was heat or the fact that water got cooked out or what contributed to the no ash.


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## linne1gi (Jul 28, 2019)

earlene said:


> I've been really lucky with my soy wax soaps in terms of no ash.  So far I have not gone about 30% soy wax and have not got ash on any of them.  My water amount tends to be lower with a 33% Lye concentration or higher most of the time.  My soy wax soaps have all been CP, so have no experience with HP soy wax soap.  But I don't recall ever getting ash on an HP soap so not sure if it was heat or the fact that water got cooked out or what contributed to the no ash.


It’s probably your low water amount.


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## earlene (Jul 30, 2019)

earlene said:


> I've been really lucky with my soy wax soaps in terms of no ash.  So far I have not gone about 30% soy wax and have not got ash on any of them.  My water amount tends to be lower with a 33% Lye concentration or higher most of the time.  My soy wax soaps have all been CP, so have no experience with HP soy wax soap.  But I don't recall ever getting ash on an HP soap so not sure if it was heat or the fact that water got cooked out or what contributed to the no ash.



That second sentence should read "So far I have not gone above (not about) ....  

Just a correction.


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## Dawni (Jul 30, 2019)

linne1gi said:


> Dawni,  What is your water amount?  I found that when I reduced my water, I reduced my chance of getting ash and nowadays I get almost no ash.


Yes, that's the general consensus I think.... Less water, less _chances_ of ash. I used 30% lye concentrationion for this one, can't remember why lol

Thanks for the reminder @earlene. I've forgotten that I wanted to HP with soy wax.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jul 30, 2019)

@Dawni this is all so interesting. Good job on the side-by-side comparison!  I’m moving ever closer to ordering soy wax.


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## Dawni (Oct 17, 2019)

Update at 6mos:

In both pics the soap with soy wax 444 is on the right.








The brown stuff on the bottom is cocoa powder I used to differentiate them.

As you can see, the soy wax soap has started what looks like DOS to me. It doesn't smell rancid, but for some reason I'm getting a waxy smell more from where the discoloration is than the other parts. Or is that rancidity?

The lard soap has also discolored and I'm waiting to see if this is DOS. If it is then it took longer to get it. Initially the lard soap wasn't as white as the soy wax one but now neither are white lol The sweating also seems to have solved my ash issue? Dunno..

Both soaps are stored in a lined cardboard box next to each other, and were cured side by side so conditions are fairly equal.

The soy wax soap is also still sticky, as I mentioned in the previous update, and is also slightly sweaty, considering it's in a box. The lard soap is fairly dry. Putting my soaps in a box helped keep my cured soleseifes dry so I'm wondering why this one is sweating.

I'm also positive this isn't the soap that I dropped, but seems like the soy wax soap had warped a bit more than the lard soap, not counting that side that looks dented.

As for lather and conditioning I'll have to update later again, after I slice off some slivers from the bottoms n try em. I can't seem to find where I hid the other bars hahaha


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 17, 2019)

@Dawni thanks for providing this very clear side by side comparison.  Now that I started using soy wax, I don’t want to see DOS in anyone’s soy wax soap!  When I read back through this thread I noticed that you used 10% grapeseed oil.  Have you used it in any other soaps you make?  What option did you use for the soy wax in the calculator?  I’m leaning towards thinking SAP .136-.137 is too low for GW 415.  If it’s also too low for 444, your soap would have a slightly higher SF than you calculated.  Perhaps the combination of grapeseed oil and a slightly higher SF would increase the potential for DOS, particularly in your hot, humid environment.  Just a speculation though.


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## linne1gi (Oct 17, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Update at 6mos:
> 
> In both pics the soap with soy wax 444 is on the right.
> View attachment 42089
> ...


Actually rancidity doesn’t smell that bad. Somewhat like old crayons.



Dawni said:


> Update at 6mos:
> 
> In both pics the soap with soy wax 444 is on the right.
> View attachment 42089
> ...


Also, what were your linolenic and linoleic numbers. Higher than 15 seems to bring on the DOS.


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## Dawni (Oct 17, 2019)

You could be right @Mobjack Bay. I used the one that says fully hydrogenated soy bean oil (soy wax) coz that was thought to be the correct one. I wonder what my additional SF could be, on top of the 3%...

I've used this amount of grapeseed in other soaps yes, sometimes even higher and so far no DOS. Actually, this is the only one I've seen it in, other than the Castile. Fingers crossed.. 

@linne1gi I'll have to look it up but I almost never go higher than 15 combined linoleic and linolenic. And old crayons is exactly what I'm thinking of, thank you. I was under the impression it'll smell more like rancid oil lol don't know where I got that idea.


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## linne1gi (Oct 17, 2019)

Dawni said:


> You could be right @Mobjack Bay. I used the one that says fully hydrogenated soy bean oil (soy wax) coz that was thought to be the correct one. I wonder what my additional SF could be, on top of the 3%...
> 
> I've used this amount of grapeseed in other soaps yes, sometimes even higher and so far no DOS. Actually, this is the only one I've seen it in, other than the Castile. Fingers crossed..
> 
> @linne1gi I'll have to look it up but I almost never go higher than 15 combined linoleic and linolenic. And old crayons is exactly what I'm thinking of, thank you. I was under the impression it'll smell more like rancid oil lol don't know where I got that idea.


Lol!


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## Cajuma (Oct 18, 2019)

I am new to soaping so please forgive me if this is an ignorant question. Is there another lard alternative besides soy wax that would be considered vegan? I love the comparison!


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## Dawni (Oct 18, 2019)

Cajuma said:


> I am new to soaping so please forgive me if this is an ignorant question. Is there another lard alternative besides soy wax that would be considered vegan? I love the comparison!


Not ignorant at all! You'll find several experiments on that around the forum, and I'm personally waiting for @szaza to post hers hehehe.. But here's one by IrishLass, if you're not opposed to palm.

I only made this comparison to test hardness and longevity. I mentioned it earlier but I'll say again that soy wax isn't a direct replacement for lard. Lather and conditioning might look similar in the calcs but skin feel is totally different in my opinion.

I have no access to palm but I suspect it, or a combination of the butters, would be a better lard replacement if we want to keep the skin feel similar. Next experiment maybe.... Hehe.


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## szaza (Oct 18, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I'm personally waiting for @szaza to post hers hehehe..


Soon! just don't expect a revolutionary recipe. It was just a first try at creating a replacement that's still being tested and improvement on the recipe is definitely possible. 

@Cajuma just play around with the fatty acid profiles in soapcalc. Find a recipe you want to make a vegan version of and play around with different oils in different amounts to get a similar fatty acid composition. You can simplify by grouping lauric and myristic acids (the total of both should be the same in your recipe as in the recipe you're trying to replace). The same can be done with stearic+palmitic and linoleic+linolenic. That way it gets a bit easier. When replacing lard it's mainly the palmitic+stearic you're looking for. Most butters are high in those oils, but also neem and palm oils. Besides that there are several soft oils that are higher in stearic+palmitic than others, so don't just replace the lard with palm oil or butters, but also see if you can replace some of the soft oils in the recipe.
@Dawni I suspect the trans fats in soy wax will probably be responsible for the difference in skin feel, but haven't gotten around to researching, let alone trying it.. 
Love the experiment you're doing, thanks for keeping us updated!!


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 18, 2019)

@szaza I also wonder about the trans fat “feel”.  I haven’t done any research either, but just thinking about it, the hydrogenated lard that so many use must also be full of trans fats.


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## Jackie Tobey (Oct 19, 2019)

Sorry if this has already been addressed. I have just received my soy wax (GW415) in the mail. Do I use the hydrogenated soy wax option or partially hydrogenated soy wax option in soap making friend?  From what I’ve read I also need to drop my SF to 2-3. Is this correct?  I try to keep my palmitic/stearic combined numbers around 37 when I am formulating a recipe. And I thought the soy wax would be a good alternative to use.


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## szaza (Oct 19, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> @szaza I also wonder about the trans fat “feel”.  I haven’t done any research either, but just thinking about it, the hydrogenated lard that so many use must also be full of trans fats.


Of course I hadn't thought about that yet.. when testing different lards I did notice the one with hydrogenated lard had a more 'slippery' feel. Is this something others have experienced as well?


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 19, 2019)

szaza said:


> Of course I hadn't thought about that yet.. when testing different lards I did notice the one with hydrogenated lard had a more 'slippery' feel. Is this something others have experienced as well?


I searched and searched trying to find a paper on the trans fats in lard, but so far no luck.  I think I need to track down a copy of “The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics” which apparently is a compendium of data and tables of “standard” information, including on fats.


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 19, 2019)

Dawni said:


> You could be right @Mobjack Bay. I used the one that says fully hydrogenated soy bean oil (soy wax) coz that was thought to be the correct one. I wonder what my additional SF could be, on top of the 3%...



Based on the calculation I did here, for a recipe with 20% GW 415 and using the SAP I estimated (.144) instead of .136, it increases the lye needed by about 1%, which I assume equates to 1% less superfat than if you use .136 in the calculator.  As the percentage of GW 415 goes up in the recipe, being off on the SAP would mean a greater increase in SF compared with using it at 20%.  You could get an idea by calculating your recipe using lard (SAP .141), tallow (SAP .143) or oleic acid (SAP. 144) as a proxy for whatever you’re entering for soy wax now.  Then you can see how much of a difference you get in the lye wt.


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## Dawni (Oct 19, 2019)

@Jackie Tobey maybe the post right above will help you make a decision?

Or you could read this thread by @Mobjack Bay


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## Mobjack Bay (Oct 19, 2019)

Great pic @Dawni!


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## Dawni (Oct 19, 2019)

Mobjack Bay said:


> Great pic @Dawni!


Thanks 
I do, once in a while, get a sudden attack of vanity.. Hence the pic without the kids, and a close-up even lol


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## Dawni (Sep 4, 2020)

Who wants an update at 1yr 4.5mos?

Lard soap on the left, soy wax 444 on the right. Please read the preceding posts, as this is not to show that soy wax is a direct replacement to lard - except for hardness lol




Yep that's DO.S aka dreaded orange soap, not spots lol

But I feel I should mention that it does NOT smell like old crayons now, like mentioned in the above posts

The lard soap smells like soap


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## TashaBird (Sep 4, 2020)

Such a cool experiment!


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## penelopejane (Sep 4, 2020)

Dawni said:


> Who wants an update at 1yr 4.5mos?
> 
> Lard soap on the left, soy wax 444 on the right. Please read the preceding posts, as this is not to show that soy wax is a direct replacement to lard - except for hardness lol
> View attachment 49223
> ...


So very sad, Dawni. 
Does the soy wax one smell like rancid oils now?


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## Todd Ziegler (Sep 4, 2020)

Great job! Excellent information.


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## Dawni (Sep 4, 2020)

penelopejane said:


> So very sad, Dawni.
> Does the soy wax one smell like rancid oils now?


Kind of? But not as bad as my Castiles do - that's even sadder lol, and also not as bad as the high canola test I made but never got around to posting about.

This one.. I think, can still be masked if I had fully colored it and scented it with FOs.


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## AliOop (Sep 4, 2020)

Thank you for sharing this. The lard soap looks smoother, too.


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## earlene (Sep 6, 2020)

Thanks for the update.  I'll have to go give a sniff to one of my older soy wax soaps, *Dawni.  *But I do use a different soy wax than you (due to differing local availability, I know). Perhaps the rancidity may be related, or maybe the grapeseed oil?

Since all else was equal, including simultaneous stirring (!), perhaps the preservatives in the lard vs none in the soy OR the 2% unknown additives in the soy had something to do with the DOS in one and not the other soap.  Did you add any preservatives? ROE? BHT? Commercially sold lard generally has BHT added to it (at least here in the US), so that soap may be less prone to rancidity than the other soap if no additional preservatives were added.

More as it relates to the lard/soy comparison and my personal experience:

Lard soap has a very smooth marble-like surface and my soy wax soaps do not.  None of them are as hard as the lard soap, either.   I wonder how your recipes compare for the feel of hardness as you hold them/use them.

In my experience, soy wax does not compare well to lard, neither for hardness nor for the smooth marble-like surface.  Of course our recipes differ, so it may not be your experience.  I really believe the overall recipe influences the soap more than any single ingredient.  Still, we do like to know what each ingredient contributes, don't we?  I know I do.

And the olfactory factor, which does vary for some folks as not all noses are equal:

A few days ago I did a hand-washing test with a soap I thought was a palm oil tester soap (that I had made around the same time I had made the lard soap), so it was a blind test in terms of I didn't know what the ingredients were when I picked it up and started washing my hands.  I had to go check my records when I shockingly thought to myself, "This smells awful; it smells like lard."  Yep, it was the lard soap I made 4 years ago.  The photos are in my records to proove it, along with the recipe; not the palm oil soap at all.  Now, some folks are fortunate enough not to have the sniffer of a bloodhound, but not me, I am gifted with a sniffer that can smell a variety of things not everyone can sense, including lard in cured soap, and I gotta say, sometimes it comes in real handy and sometimes I hate it.  So for those who think the lard smell goes away, it really doesn't, not for some of us. That's okay, I do have non-vegetarian friends and some family not gifted with my sniffer who are happy to get lardy soap.   *It is hard as a rock though, and has absolutely no DOS.  *

So,  I am off to sniff out an older soy wax bar soap of comparable age.  

ETA: I don't have any of comparable age as I didn't start using soy wax that long ago. I'll have to look at newer soaps - in the 2 y.o. age range, next.


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## shermluge (Sep 8, 2020)

I know I'm probably repeating others.. But I've done as you have and I've found over all the lard bars are MUCH smoother.. I still use the soy if the 2 vegan recipes I use..


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