# Made Lotion - Have Questions??



## dibbles (May 19, 2017)

I finally tried making lotion. It all went well except that I intended to use meadowfoam oil and mistakenly added jojoba instead. No problem, I wanted to try jojoba too. It was a micro batch since I am assuming that I'll be wanting to try lots of combinations. I used, for the most part, one of the Swift Crafty Monkey recipes which was 67% water, glycerin, and the oils were jojoba, fractionated coconut oil, mango butter with cetyl alcohol and BTMS 50. I added dimethicone and cyclomethicone because I had them anyway. 

I had already the fractionated coconut oil, so decided to use it since it seems like a light and easily absorbed oil. First question: is the liquid coconut oil I see at the grocery store/Target/Walmart the same thing? http://www.target.com/p/carrington-farms-coconut-oil-16oz/-/A-15346490

With summer coming up, I am hoping to find a recipe for a nice light lotion. This one is just a bit thick in consistency. Would adding more water be the answer to that? By about how many percentage points would be a good place to start? And then do I reduce one of the oils?

Thanks for any advice. I think I have my work cut out for me.

ETA: One more question. I used a preservative, of course, but how long before I would know if something wasn't right? And how long before I would likely see problems like emulsion failure/separation.


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## dixiedragon (May 19, 2017)

My understanding - and I could be wrong - is that they are the same thing for our purposes, but for labeling purposes you need to label them either "liquid coconut" or "fractionated coconut".


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## dibbles (May 19, 2017)

Thank you Dixie. If I decide I want to keep using it when what I have is gone it is nice to know it's something I can buy locally. I don't sell, so labeling it as liquid or fractionated coconut is what I will do - just so people know what is in it. I hope to recruit some testers.


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## Saponificarian (May 20, 2017)

Hello Dibbles. Why not try removing the Cetyl alcohol? There is a thickener in the BTMS 50, I think it's Cetyl but I can't be too sure without checking the INCI (It is Saturday morning here and I am feeling a bit lazy). Checked anyway, It's Cetyl alcohol. Maybe drop the Cetyl Alcohol and maybe increase water to 70% and see how you like it? Depending on the percentage of the mango butter, it might add some thickening.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 20, 2017)

Aye - getting the right thickness is a case of tweaking by degrees. Less oil, more water (making sure the emulsifier amount still works!) and so on. Keep going until you get it right.


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## dibbles (May 20, 2017)

Saponificarian said:


> Hello Dibbles. Why not try removing the Cetyl alcohol? There is a thickener in the BTMS 50, I think it's Cetyl but I can't be too sure without checking the INCI (It is Saturday morning here and I am feeling a bit lazy). Checked anyway, It's Cetyl alcohol. Maybe drop the Cetyl Alcohol and maybe increase water to 70% and see how you like it? Depending on the percentage of the mango butter, it might add some thickening.



Thank you and good point. That will probably be try #2.


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## dibbles (May 20, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Aye - getting the right thickness is a case of tweaking by degrees. Less oil, more water (making sure the emulsifier amount still works!) and so on. Keep going until you get it right.



Thank you EG. I don't think this will ever equal my love of soap making, but I can see it as another black hole of fascination to fall into. Literally endless ways to tweak, and probably always a feeling of 'this is good, but what if ** makes it even better'.


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## dixiedragon (May 20, 2017)

https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/lotion/gift-series-lotion-tutorial-from-scratch-2/

I used this as my starting point.

70-80% Distilled Water
3-5% Stearic Acid
3-6% Emulsifing Wax
add the rest in your choice of oils and butters
To this add
.5 – 1% Preservative
.5% Fragrance

In order to get a lotion thin enough to squeeze easily out of a bottle, I've eliminated the hard oils entirely and replaced them with liquid oils. I've also dropped the stearic to (I think) 2% or so. and I think I've dropped the ewax to 3%.


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## DeeAnna (May 20, 2017)

Dixie -- That's basically what I've done for a light lotion -- all liquid oils, lower emulsifier, lower thickener. 

A tidbit about thickener -- It's tempting to eliminate it entirely, but I have found that a little bit of extra thickener helps the lotion have a creamy texture. Without it, the lotion can have a very slightly curdled look. I won't say this is true for every lotion, but in the couple-three batches I've made without thickener, that's the tendency I've noticed.


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## kchaystack (May 20, 2017)

If I want a light lotion I do not use stearic acid as my thickener.  Even at 3% it makes it too think.  I use Cetyl Alcohol as my thickener.  You can get is pretty cheap on amazon.


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## DeeAnna (May 20, 2017)

Ah, good point, KC. I agree -- I use cetyl a lot more than stearic.


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## Zany_in_CO (May 21, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> My understanding - and I could be wrong - is that they are the same thing for our purposes, but for labeling purposes you need to label them either "liquid coconut" or "fractionated coconut".


Actually, in my experience, FCO doesn't do well in soap but it's a wonderful addition to Lotion, plus it has a long shelf life. Lotion Crafter shows the INCI: _Fractionated Coconut Oil_, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride

ZANY’S BASIC LOTION FORMULA - Tweak to your heart's delight!

75% Liquid*
5% honey (replaces humectant -- glycerin, IPM, etc.)
10% oils
2% butter
5% Ewax NF or Polawax or BTMS (powdery feel) or a combo
0.3%  Liquid Germall Plus preservative**
2.7%  fragrance/”goodies”
100% TOTAL

All measurements are by weight. When designing lotion recipes, use 100 grams because it’s easier -- 100 grams = 100%. Then resize to 300 grams (10.5 oz.) for a trial batch, using 1 gram LGP.

*Liquids to try: Distilled water, rose water, orange blossom water, hydrosols, aloe vera juice at 10% of the liquid + distilled water.

** or any other preservative at the rate recommended by manufacturer.

Making your very own lotion is so rewarding and a welcome gift for family and friends... even the guys like it!  Enjoy!


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## Dahila (May 21, 2017)

Light lotion is 80% of water or water soluble ingredients.  I use Cetyl alcohol or cetyl esters,  Stearic acid I use only for foot balm,  it tends to be druggy.  I light lotion I do not use any butters at all,  Lotionpro 165 will give you a very light lotion.  If you use Bmts it will be a bit thicker.  I use LOtionpro and cetyl esters for pumps,  Works like a charm. 
Making lotions is so satisfying.  You will be a pro in no time.   
Like DeeAnna I made lotion without cetyl , cause BMTS-50 contains cetyl.  500 g went to garbage,  but 1% of cetyl changes it completely  
Ladies and Gents try cetyl esters it is fantastic in lotion and much cheaper than cetyl alcohol


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## dibbles (May 21, 2017)

Thank you all for your advice. I am taking notes and will be testing, testing, testing. After I figure out a lighter lotion, on to one for winter skin. Lots of options here; this could be fun.


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## Arimara (May 21, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> If I want a light lotion I do not use stearic acid as my thickener.  Even at 3% it makes it too think.  I use Cetyl Alcohol as my thickener.  You can get is pretty cheap on amazon.



Agreeing. I haven't truly liked ANY of the lotions I made until I used Cetyl Alcohol. That ingredient changed my view of using e-wax and made the world of difference to me with lotions. I don't think I could ever bring myself to use stearic acid in a lotion again. Now i take it as a loss until I try my hand at a cream soap.


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## cmzaha (May 21, 2017)

I use up to 92% water in lotion but I am sorry at the moment I do have my notes. I don't use stearic in my light lotion and do not use butters in my light lotions. I think my emulsifier combo is approx the same as lotion pro. Unfortunetly I have become as addicted to making lotion as soap. Just so many things to try....


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## dixiedragon (May 21, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Actually, in my experience, FCO doesn't do well in soap but it's a wonderful addition to Lotion, plus it has a long shelf life.



At my local health food store, I bought a product labeled "Liquid coconut". That's the ingredients. It's liquid at room temp, whereas as the virgin coconut in the same room was solid. So I am assuming that was the product the OP was asking about? I know there is a difference between regular (76 degree) coconut and fractionated coconut in regards to soaping, but I don't think there is a difference between liquid coconut and fractionated coconut.


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## Zany_in_CO (May 23, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> At my local health food store, I bought a product labeled "Liquid coconut". That's the ingredients. It's liquid at room temp, whereas as the virgin coconut in the same room was solid. So I am assuming that was the product the OP was asking about? I know there is a difference between regular (76 degree) coconut and fractionated coconut in regards to soaping, but I don't think there is a difference between liquid coconut and fractionated coconut.


Hiya Dixie, I agree, but I wanted a definitive answer -- I mean, why would a manufacturer called it "liquid coconut"??? Evidently, it's a recent phenomenon. Here's a link about "liquid coconut" showing up on health food shelves:
https://healthimpactnews.com/2013/i...liquid-in-your-refrigerator-real-coconut-oil/


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## dixiedragon (May 23, 2017)

I wonder that same thing myself - but the ingredients list says "liquid coconut". My theory is that the process is somehow different than the process that makes fractionated coconut, even though the end product is the same.


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## Dahila (May 23, 2017)

Saponificarian said:


> Hello Dibbles. Why not try removing the Cetyl alcohol? There is a thickener in the BTMS 50, I think it's Cetyl but I can't be too sure without checking the INCI (It is Saturday morning here and I am feeling a bit lazy). Checked anyway, It's Cetyl alcohol. Maybe drop the Cetyl Alcohol and maybe increase water to 70% and see how you like it? Depending on the percentage of the mango butter, it might add some thickening.



I removed cetyl using bmts-50 and my 500g  lotion went to garbage too thin like water


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## dibbles (May 23, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Hiya Dixie, I agree, but I wanted a definitive answer -- I mean, why would a manufacturer called it "liquid coconut"??? Evidently, it's a recent phenomenon. Here's a link about "liquid coconut" showing up on health food shelves:
> https://healthimpactnews.com/2013/i...liquid-in-your-refrigerator-real-coconut-oil/



Thanks for the link. It would appear that liquid coconut and fractionated coconut are the same. The controversy is in labeling it for cooking as 'liquid' coconut oil, since it is different from coconut oil in terms of cooking. I know a lot of people who wouldn't understand that liquid coconut oil and solid coconut oil are not the same. Especially when the ingredients list for both just say 'coconut oil'.


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## DeeAnna (May 23, 2017)

Could it be that nasty word "fractionated?" Perhaps they wanted to find a name that was more "natural" than that?


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## dibbles (May 23, 2017)

Could be. Probably because of the recent trendiness of coconut oil, and all of its uses, they want as little differentiation as possible. I want a product different from virgin coconut oil for my purposes. Most people want it for cooking, and looking at the ingredients could easily assume the liquid and solid coconut oil are the same thing.


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## SudsandLather (May 23, 2017)

What about making lotion bar? It's more of a beeswax solid lotion that melts a little on your skin when you use it. This could be a good 'light' lotion that is also made without water so there is no worry about it going bad so quickly. It's pretty travel friendly too so can handle some travel as long as it's not left in a hot car.
Anyone have some fantastic lotion bar recipes they are willing to share?


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## DeeAnna (May 23, 2017)

SaL -- The original topic here is to discuss how to formulate a light lotion, not about lotion bars. If you want to talk about lotion bar recipes, I'd suggest starting a fresh thread with your question and a good title -- I bet you'll get some excellent replies. 

To be honest, I've not yet found a lotion bar that is as light and refreshing as a water-based lotion. I think both products have a role, but one isn't the equivalent of the other.


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## Zany_in_CO (May 24, 2017)

dibbles said:


> Thanks for the link. It would appear that liquid coconut and fractionated coconut are the same. The controversy is in labeling it for cooking as 'liquid' coconut oil, since it is different from coconut oil in terms of cooking. I know a lot of people who wouldn't understand that liquid coconut oil and solid coconut oil are not the same. Especially when the ingredients list for both just say 'coconut oil'.



Exactly. I did another google and came up with this... 



> *How do you fractionate coconut oil?*
> Fractionated coconut oil, also called “liquid coconut oil,” fit our requirements. Basically, it is a form of the oil that has had the long-chain fatty acids removed via hydrolysis and steam distillation. Just this one change makes the oil liquid at room temperature, and extends the product's shelf life.
> 
> *How do you get liquid coconut oil?*
> Being a saturated fatty acid, and comprising about 50% of coconut oil, once it is removed you are left with a liquid oil with a much lower melting point. So if you see this product online or in a store, just be aware that it is a highly refined product, and that it is missing coconut oil's star component: lauric acid.


Somebody smarter than me, needs to explain the difference... 

  ​


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## DeeAnna (May 24, 2017)

They're the same thing, despite the different name and despite the bad science being presented.

Coconut oil is NOT fractionated by "....hydrolysis and steam distillation...." Someone is badly confusing the production of fatty acids with the fractionation of a triglyceride (a fat).

The way a triglyceride is fractionated (separated) is to simply cool the fat very slowly. Eventually the fat molecules that contain mostly longer chain fatty acids will freeze (turn into a solid form). The fat molecules with mostly shorter fatty acids will still be liquid. If you have ever melted a fat that is normally solid around room temp and left it on the counter to cool slowly, you'll see this process in action. When the fat reaches a low enough temperature, you will find particles of solid fat floating in a bath of liquid. 

If you were cooling palm, tallow or lard and filtered out the solid particles ... voila ... you have what is sometimes called olein (the liquid fat molecules that contain mostly oleic acid) and stearin (solid fat molecules made mostly from palmitic and stearic acids). 

Coconut oil doesn't have much oleic acid and stearic acid, so the names olein and stearin make no sense. The liquid portion of coconut oil is called fractionated coconut oil or medium-chain triglycerides (MCT). MCT is fat molecules that contain mostly capric and caprylic acids. I'm not sure what the solid part of the coconut oil is called -- this portion contains fat molecules that are mostly myristic and lauric acids.


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