# Help with DIY Daily Shower Spray



## TennisGirl (Aug 31, 2021)

I've made two different versions of DIY daily shower spray, both work well to keep soap scum at bay:

1 part water + 2 parts vinegar
OR 
6 T citric acid dissolved in 1 quart hot water

There's another version out there that uses hydrogen peroxide, but I don't want to use that bc my understanding is that HP degrades quickly once exposed to light, air, and water. But I digress.

I'd like to add EOs to make the spray smell better, but don't want to use dish soap as the solubizer (which is what all the YT folks recommend). Has anyone tried PS80 for this, and if so, how much do you use? TIAFYH.

Just had another thought that perhaps I might try rubbing alcohol instead of PS80, as maybe that will be less likely to cause buildup (which is why I don't want to use dish soap - counterproductive in my mind to the whole purpose of a daily shower spray).

I am confident that the rubbing alcohol would be fine mixed with the vinegar and EOs, but not sure if it would interact badly with the citric acid somehow. Anyone with more chemistry knowledge (which is probably lots of people here, haha), please chime in to let me know if RA would be good, and if so, any idea how much? Thanks!


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## DeeAnna (Aug 31, 2021)

Commercial dishwashing liquids are synthetic detergents, not actual soap. That's why none of them are labeled with the word "soap" although I'd guess most consumers don't realize there's a difference.

Anyways, syndets don't make soap scum like true lye-based soap does. PS80 is a synthetic detergent.

If you use true lye-based soap for dishwashing, that's a different story. You're correct -- using actual soap in the shower spray would be counterproductive.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 31, 2021)

TennisGirl said:


> Has anyone tried PS80 for this, and if so, how much do you use?


*LECTRIC MIRACLE SPRAY*

I recently made up some of this "Miracle Spray". I used Arm & Hammer Washing Soda and homemade Coconut oil LS. I see no reason why you couldn't sub Polysorbate 80 or 20 for the dish soap in the recipe plus your essential oil of choice, although *Eucalyptus EO* is known to be antibacterial and antimicrobial and a beneficial "refresher" all by itself in a steam shower.

The best way to test Poly 80 or 20 as a "solubizer" is to add it to water, stir to completely incorporate. Then add the EO. Stir for one full minute. Set it aside to see if the oil rises to the top. If it does, add more Poly until the EO no longer separates out.


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## TennisGirl (Aug 31, 2021)

Thank you ZanyinCO, I should have been clearer. I am making a daily spray-on, leave-on shower spray. It works to prevent build up over time.

I do have a great shower cleaning recipe for when it is time to clean. Mix in spray bottle half vinegar, half dish soap, some EOs. Spray on all shower surfaces and let sit for 10-15 minutes. Scum comes right off with gentle scrubbing motion. Rinse well with hot water. No solubizer needed in that one bc the dish soap as a surfactant does what is needed to keep the EOs from separating out.

But the daily shower spray has no dish soap so that’s why I’m considering PS80. I think alcohol won’t work bc too much is needed to solubize the EOs. The recipe as is works great, I was just hoping to add a nicer smell. The CA version doesn’t smell at all but the vinegar sure does.

Sorry pushed send too soon. Thank you for the tip on dispersing the PS80. I will try it!!


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## rparrny (Aug 31, 2021)

TennisGirl said:


> I've made two different versions of DIY daily shower spray, both work well to keep soap scum at bay:
> 
> 1 part water + 2 parts vinegar
> OR
> ...


Alcohol is really the only non solubilizer base but you really don't need ANY solubilizer, just shake the bottle before use.


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## TennisGirl (Aug 31, 2021)

rparrny said:


> Alcohol is really the only non solubilizer base but you really don't need ANY solubilizer, just shake the bottle before use.


Thanks but I don’t like the results of shaking. It leaves EO drops here and there, which has the potential for undiluted skin contact. A solubizer is best for skin safety.

I tried the1:1 ratio as suggested by Zany and it worked well. Thanks Zany!!


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## rparrny (Aug 31, 2021)

Sorry, I figured if your going natural you would avoid synthetics like PS80.  Not likely you would have to worry about contamination on the skin from a spray bottle, I've been doing it for years with no issues.  You also may want to take a look at the MSDS on the product.  If your worried about skin contamination of an essential oil, you have a lot more to worry about with PS80.  It's a known irritant and that is listed on the MSDS.  Just sayin...


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## TennisGirl (Aug 31, 2021)

I hear ya and would normally totally agree. Unfortunately, I'm very sensitized to EOs and get strong reactions if they touch my skin undiluted including instant high blood pressure, migraine, heart racing, or skin rash. I'm ok as long as they are diluted so if I want to use them in cleaning products, I have to solubize them somehow. Dish soap works well for many applications, but not for a daily shower spray where the purpose is to prevent soap scum.

But I do appreciate all suggestions and am open to hearing more if you can think of them. And that includes things that aren't quite as "natural" such as a touch of PS80. It still ends up being a much less toxic product than what we can buy in the cleaning aisle. And much less expensive, too.


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## amd (Aug 31, 2021)

TennisGirl said:


> I've made two different versions of DIY daily shower spray, both work well to keep soap scum at bay:
> 
> 1 part water + 2 parts vinegar
> OR
> 6 T citric acid dissolved in 1 quart hot water


Do you think the second version would work with sodium citrate?
I had every intention of making my own sodium citrate from citric acid and baking soda, but did a reality check and I just don't have that kind of time, so I bought sodium citrate instead of making it.... long story short, I have sodium citrate but no citric acid.


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## TennisGirl (Aug 31, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> Commercial dishwashing liquids are synthetic detergents, not actual soap. That's why none of them are labeled with the word "soap" although I'd guess most consumers don't realize there's a difference.
> 
> Anyways, syndets don't make soap scum like true lye-based soap does. PS80 is a synthetic detergent.
> 
> If you use true lye-based soap for dishwashing, that's a different story. You're correct -- using actual soap in the shower spray would be counterproductive.


Thank you DeeAnna somehow I missed your reply earlier. Yes, normally I use my homemade LS when concocting household cleaning supplies which is why I was thinking about soap scum. I guess instead of PS80 I could use an equal amount of a syndet dishwashing liquid, and that would probably end up being cheaper than the PS80, too. I do like PS80 for stain removal in clothing and a grease cutter in some kitchen cleaners. But good ole Dawn works just as well for cleaning although not for stain removal for me anyway. So thanks for suggesting the syndet option since that may end up being the easiest choice.


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## rparrny (Aug 31, 2021)

Skin sensitivity can be a real problem.  As a certified aromatherapist and a PA for the past 30 years, it's been my experience that most (not all) skin sensitivities occur secondary to adulterated essential oils.  It's really important that what ever company you buy your oils from furnishes a GC/MS report that will show level of adulterants and it's also a great way to compare oils with other companies.  Most of the major companies provide it right on their website.  I have sometimes found that certain oils from my favorite (but more expensive) company, sometimes didn't measure up against reputable but much cheaper oils when I compared the therapeutic components.
The end result is: if you haven't seen the GC/MS report of the oils that you are using, you can't possibly know if they are adulterated.  I am also a former university professor and I love to teach, so if you want to learn how to read a GC/MS report, let me know, I would love the opportunity to show you how to read a report.


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## TennisGirl (Aug 31, 2021)

amd said:


> Do you think the second version would work with sodium citrate?
> I had every intention of making my own sodium citrate from citric acid and baking soda, but did a reality check and I just don't have that kind of time, so I bought sodium citrate instead of making it.... long story short, I have sodium citrate but no citric acid.


I am guessing no because I think SC is a salt and not as acidic as needed to clean. Vinegar works too but I find the CA works better and has no smell. Sure vinegar smell goes away after a bit but meanwhile, till it does...  whew.



rparrny said:


> Skin sensitivity can be a real problem.  As a certified aromatherapist and a PA for the past 30 years, it's been my experience that most (not all) skin sensitivities occur secondary to adulterated essential oils.  It's really important that what ever company you buy your oils from furnishes a GC/MS report that will show level of adulterants and it's also a great way to compare oils with other companies.  Most of the major companies provide it right on their website.  I have sometimes found that certain oils from my favorite (but more expensive) company, sometimes didn't measure up against reputable but much cheaper oils when I compared the therapeutic components.
> The end result is: if you haven't seen the GC/MS report of the oils that you are using, you can't possibly know if they are adulterated.  I am also a former university professor and I love to teach, so if you want to learn how to read a GC/MS report, let me know, I would love the opportunity to show you how to read a report.


You are very kind to share your knowledge so freely. I only buy EOs from reputable soap suppliers who provide the necessary reports. Regarding the skin sensitivies, I'm just a person with lots of sensitivies and allergies, which is why I make my own soaps, cleaning products, and body care items. I can't use any commercial hair products at all, including any dyes, perms, etc.  But it didn't help that when I first started using EOs at the urging of a friend in one of those MLMs, I was told I could use them undiluted. My allergist was furious because as we all now are more aware, using them undiluted is a great way to become oversensitized. Oh well, what's done is done but I'm very careful now since I don't want to stop using them altogether.


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## rparrny (Aug 31, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> Commercial dishwashing liquids are synthetic detergents, not actual soap. That's why none of them are labeled with the word "soap" although I'd guess most consumers don't realize there's a difference.
> 
> Anyways, syndets don't make soap scum like true lye-based soap does. PS80 is a synthetic detergent.
> 
> If you use true lye-based soap for dishwashing, that's a different story. You're correct -- using actual soap in the shower spray would be counterproductive.


Syndets are also synthetic components.  You can use SCI (Sodium Cocoly Isethionate) in noodle or powder form but if using powder you MUST wear a good mask or SLSA (Sodium Laurly Sufloacetate) again with a powder you must wear a mask.  They are excellent surfactants and are Ecocert approved as being considered "natural".  I use them to formulate shower bars and the pH is 5-6 versus lye soap which is 9+...that strips the skin of it's acid mantle which is the first line of defense against pathogens, pollution and dehydration.  If you use lye soap constantly, you will permanently strip the acid mantle away.  I use it a few times a week only and use shower bars the rest of the week.  Then the acid mantle will regenerate after a few hours.  SCI is so gentle it can be used to create baby soap.  SLSA creates a higher pH and is often combined with SCI to make a more balanced bar.



TennisGirl said:


> You are very kind to share your knowledge so freely. I only buy EOs from reputable soap suppliers who provide the necessary reports. Regarding the skin sensitivies, I'm just a person with lots of sensitivies and allergies, which is why I make my own soaps, cleaning products, and body care items. I can't use any commercial hair products at all, including any dyes, perms, etc.  But it didn't help that when I first started using EOs at the urging of a friend in one of those MLMs, I was told I could use them undiluted. My allergist was furious because as we all now are more aware, using them undiluted is a great way to become oversensitized. Oh well, what's done is done but I'm very careful now since I don't want to stop using them altogether.


I hear you...and one of the BIGGEST MLMs out there does NOT supply a GC/MS report...ever...so who knows WHAT is in that bottle.  Be aware if you use lye soap everyday, you are destroying your acid mantle on your skin which is a protective biome of sorts.  You would benefit from learning how to create a shower bar with SCI, a very gentle surfactant, deemed natural by ecocert and makes a lovely bar that lathers nicely and has a ph under 6.  (most lye soaps have a pH of 9+)  Don't get me wrong, I use lye soap a few times a week, especially if I feel grimey from heat and humidity.  But I also started formulating because of sensitive skin and the shower bar has been a game changer.


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## TennisGirl (Aug 31, 2021)

rparrny said:


> I hear you...and one of the BIGGEST MLMs out there does NOT supply a GC/MS report...ever...so who knows WHAT is in that bottle.  Be aware if you use lye soap everyday, you are destroying your acid mantle on your skin which is a protective biome of sorts.  You would benefit from learning how to create a shower bar with SCI, a very gentle surfactant, deemed natural by ecocert and makes a lovely bar that lathers nicely and has a ph under 6.  (most lye soaps have a pH of 9+)  Don't get me wrong, I use lye soap a few times a week, especially if I feel grimey from heat and humidity.  But I also started formulating because of sensitive skin and the shower bar has been a game changer.


I can use lye soap on my hair without trouble but it does best with gentle syndets so my shampoo bars contain SCI, SLSa, and CapB, among other things. I also make conditioner bars. 

But my skin does better with lye soap made with animal fats, lard being best and tallow coming in second. Any kind of syndet dries it out horribly. I even have to rinse my hair so that the syndet lather doesn't go down my legs or the leg dandruff is insane.


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## AliOop (Aug 31, 2021)

@TennisGirl Sounds a lot like me - I also prefer sydnet bars for hair, and lye soaps with animal fats for my skin. I also have to be very careful with many EOs (mostly the hot oils), or I get the exact same reactions you mentioned. 

Sure appreciate you sharing some of your cleaning supply recipes. I generally keep mine unscented but wouldn't mind adding some scent for those times that we will be having guests.  I may give the PS80 or dish soap a try for mixing in a touch of EOs for those of my friends who say that the house doesn't seem "clean" unless it smells like something nice.


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## Rsapienza (Aug 31, 2021)

rparrny said:


> Syndets are also synthetic components.  You can use SCI (Sodium Cocoly Isethionate) in noodle or powder form but if using powder you MUST wear a good mask or SLSA (Sodium Laurly Sufloacetate) again with a powder you must wear a mask.  They are excellent surfactants and are Ecocert approved as being considered "natural".  I use them to formulate shower bars and the pH is 5-6 versus lye soap which is 9+...that strips the skin of it's acid mantle which is the first line of defense against pathogens, pollution and dehydration.  If you use lye soap constantly, you will permanently strip the acid mantle away.  I use it a few times a week only and use shower bars the rest of the week.  Then the acid mantle will regenerate after a few hours.  SCI is so gentle it can be used to create baby soap.  SLSA creates a higher pH and is often combined with SCI to make a more balanced bar.


I don’t believe any soap, lye based or syndet is recommended for a baby (newborn). SCI, while not disrupting the acid mantle, has been found to be drying in a babies ever so delicate skin.

I also believe this is why we SF, is it not? 
Also, if the acid mantle regenerates after a few hours, what would be the difference in using a lye based soap daily or a few times a week?


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## AliOop (Aug 31, 2021)

Rsapienza said:


> I don’t believe any soap, lye based or syndet is recommended for a baby (newborn). SCI, while not disrupting the acid mantle, has been found to be drying in a babies ever so delicate skin.
> 
> I also believe this is why we SF, is it not?
> Also, if the acid mantle regenerates after a few hours, what would be the difference in using a lye based soap daily or a few times a week?


Totally agree, @Rsapienza!  I use lye soap on my skin daily with no problems. My SF is usually 3% so not very high, but my bars are very low cleansing. Olive oil soaps tend to dry out my skin, but animal-fat soaps don't. But I am now making regular batches of high OO soap because a dear friend of mine has the exact opposite experience from mine.

Another piece of the journey for me was installing a shower head filter. Removing the chlorine from my shower water was like a miracle for my skin.

All that to say, I believe we all have to find what works for us. We can share experiences but need to be careful about telling others what they should do.


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## rparrny (Sep 1, 2021)

TennisGirl said:


> I can use lye soap on my hair without trouble but it does best with gentle syndets so my shampoo bars contain SCI, SLSa, and CapB, among other things. I also make conditioner bars.
> 
> But my skin does better with lye soap made with animal fats, lard being best and tallow coming in second. Any kind of syndet dries it out horribly. I even have to rinse my hair so that the syndet lather doesn't go down my legs or the leg dandruff is insane.


I guess I’m getting confused at your use of syndets.  They are synthetic and not natural. SCI, and SLSA are natural derivatives and are not synthesized. Many of the synthetic versions have a pH that can go as high as nine which would cause dry skin for you. An all natural shower bar made with SCI should have a pH between 5&6.  And because you make it and it’s all natural the oils and butters you choose could be specific healing formulations for your skin.  SLSA on its own has a pH that would be too high for your skin.  You would need a formulation that was only SCI or a combination of SCI and SLSA.



Rsapienza said:


> I don’t believe any soap, lye based or syndet is recommended for a baby (newborn). SCI, while not disrupting the acid mantle, has been found to be drying in a babies ever so delicate skin.
> 
> I also believe this is why we SF, is it not?
> Also, if the acid mantle regenerates after a few hours, what would be the difference in using a lye based soap daily or a few times a week?


I did a search of every study I could find on babies and SCI and there was nothing about SCI causing any irritation. You may be confusing syndet bars with natural bath bars.  Syndet Bars often have a higher pH and it is the pH or the alkalinity of a soap that causes irritation. SCI has the lowest most gentle form of surfactant available.  SLSA Is also a natural surfactant but the pH is much higher and often it is combined with SCI to lower the pH. But it is not recommended in the bath bars for babies.  It would help if you showed me the source so that I could find out what they’re talking about.  Syndet bars are synthetic chemicals.  SCI is Ecocert deemed as natural and not synthetic.


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## Rsapienza (Sep 1, 2021)

rparrny said:


> I did a search of every study I could find on babies and SCI and there was nothing about SCI causing any irritation. You may be confusing syndet bars with natural bath bars.  Syndet Bars often have a higher pH and it is the pH or the alkalinity of a soap that causes irritation. SCI has the lowest most gentle form of surfactant available.  SLSA Is also a natural surfactant but the pH is much higher and often it is combined with SCI to lower the pH. But it is not recommended in the bath bars for babies.  It would help if you showed me the source so that I could find out what they’re talking about.  Syndet bars are synthetic chemicals.  SCI is Ecocert deemed as natural and not synthetic.


“ Moreover, soaps and cleansers should be minimally used in the first few weeks of life for newborns, because any attempt intended to raise the skin pH would promote the number of bacteria and increase the TEWL [69]. There is not enough evidence that soaps have long-term impact on infants, but in the short term, it could disturb their acid mantles [31,33,34]. Synthetic detergents such as cocoyl isethionate, and sodium lauryl sulphate are soap substitutes that have pH values similar to skin and are more moderate than soaps. They do not alter skin pH and microflora, but they disintegrate rapidly and can cause skin dryness [70].








						Role of pH Value in Clinically Relevant Diagnosis
					

As a highly influential physiological factor, pH may be leveraged as a tool to diagnose physiological state. It may be especially suitable for diagnosing and assessing skin structure and wound status. Multiple innovative and elegant smart wound dressings ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



FWIW, the term “natural” doesn’t hold much weight as it is not a regulated term. Exocert or not, I cannot go out in nature and grab some SCI or SLSA. IMO, calling a product made with those ingredients “natural” is being a bit deceitful.


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## TennisGirl (Sep 1, 2021)

@rparrny you are using the terms “syndet” and “natural” in ways that most people on this forum and all the instructional formulation sites that I’ve ever read don’t use them.

Here are the terms I see and use which seem to be the same as the way folks on this forum and the formulation sites use them. Syndet is short for synthetic detergent. It does not mean lye soap, which is true soap as defined by the US government and others (salt of fatty acids made by combining lye and fats). You can make a com-bar that has both soap and syndets but I’ve never tried that.

SCI, SLSa, CapB are all syndets EDITED: here is a link to a PubMed article on SCI which defines it as a syndet. They may be considered natural by Ecocert but I sure don’t think of them in that way and the formulating sites I use don’t call them that either. Here is a link to the Stephenson website where they also list SCI as a syndet and cite it as the most commonly used one.

I realize you have a lot of experience and training but so do many of us here. From other threads I’ve learned DeeAnna is a chemist with advanced credentials. I can’t claim that level of expertise but I have a pH tester, own and wear a dust mask with filters for airborne particles, and generally know how to make pH balanced bars using SCI and the like. Sure there’s so much more to learn but I’m pretty solid in the basics of syndets. I just officially joined this forum only a few days ago so I could ask my question in this thread but have spent many hours researching and learning a lot over the past decade since I made my first bar of lye soap.

It is good to ask people what they know before assuming you need to teach them something. I say that in all kindness because your knowledge and training are very welcome here.


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## Becky1024 (Sep 1, 2021)

TennisGirl said:


> Thank you ZanyinCO, I should have been clearer. I am making a daily spray-on, leave-on shower spray. It works to prevent build up over time.
> 
> I do have a great shower cleaning recipe for when it is time to clean. Mix in spray bottle half vinegar, half dish soap, some EOs. Spray on all shower surfaces and let sit for 10-15 minutes. Scum comes right off with gentle scrubbing motion. Rinse well with hot water. No solubizer needed in that one bc the dish soap as a surfactant does what is needed to keep the EOs from separating out.
> 
> But the daily shower spray has no dish soap so that’s why I’m considering PS80. I think alcohol won’t work bc too much is needed to solubize the EOs. The recipe as is works great, I was just hoping to add a nicer smell. The CA version doesn’t smell at all but the vinegar sure does.


Tennis Girl I use a half vinegar / half dish soap cleaner too. I find Dawn dish soap works best. My shower is white fiberglass which shows EVERYTHING. If the vinegar/dish soap cleaner does not clean all the scum off, I make a paste of half borax, half Dawn dish soap and a little hot water. Apply the paste on the spot, let it dry. Then wet a scrub brush and scrub all the scum off. I like the idea of a daily spray on to prevent build up over time and I will have to try it!


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## TennisGirl (Sep 1, 2021)

@Becky1024 agreed, Dawn rocks!! The daily shower spray really does work too! The CA version is odorless and seems stronger to me than the vinegar version. I either spray that everywhere or squeegee after every single shower. I also use citric acid in my homemade soap. All of that together has greatly reduced the scum buildup which was a constant nightmare in the past.

Thank you for the tip of borax + Dawn. I've used baking soda but will def give the borax a try now too. Always have it around since I make laundry cleaning powder with it and also use it for toilet cleaning. Sprinkle in, swish around, wait 10 minutes. Sparkling toilets!


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## Rsapienza (Sep 2, 2021)

Becky1024 said:


> Tennis Girl I use a half vinegar / half dish soap cleaner too. I find Dawn dish soap works best. My shower is white fiberglass which shows EVERYTHING. If the vinegar/dish soap cleaner does not clean all the scum off, I make a paste of half borax, half Dawn dish soap and a little hot water. Apply the paste on the spot, let it dry. Then wet a scrub brush and scrub all the scum off. I like the idea of a daily spray on to prevent build up over time and I will have to try it!


I do as well. I use one of those dish washing wand gadgets that you put the solution right in the wand. I keep it in my shower and clean the wall tiles as I’m in the shower.


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## rparrny (Sep 2, 2021)

Rsapienza said:


> FWIW, the term “natural” doesn’t hold much weight as it is not a regulated term. Exocert or not, I cannot go out in nature and grab some SCI or SLSA. IMO, calling a product made with those ingredients “natural” is being a bit deceitful.


Most people don't have a clue what ecocert certification really means, thought you might find this enlightening:
*What is “Ecocert” Certification?*






In modern times, cosmetics are synonymous with hygiene, personal well-being and beauty. They are used daily and generously for the care of the whole family. Numerous products invade the everyday life of the average person, personal hygiene and care products, beauty products, makeup, perfumes, baby care products, sunscreen…
At a time when organic products are following a thriving course, more and more logos and certifications appear in bottles and boxes. For you, therefore, looking for credentials and suspecting that all certification organizations are not of the same high requirements and strict specifications, we provide you with information about the certifications of the products we represent.

*WHAT GUARANTEE DOES THE CERTIFIED TERM “BIOLOGICAL COSMETIC” OFFER*
“ECOCERT” is one of the world’s most well-known and major organic product certification bodies.
It is the most rigorous and credible organization, approved by the Ministry of Agriculture and the Ministry of Finance and Industry of France.
“Ecocert” certification guarantees that the products tested meet the requirements and specifications for the manufacturing process and methods and respect the commitments on organic cosmetics.
Ingredients obtained through chemical processes may not be included in the composition of products certified by “Ecocert”.

*In particular, the “Ecocert” certifying body prohibits:*

Synthetic dyes – Synthetic aromas – Synthetic antioxidants
Synthetic oils – Animal feeds and of course no animal experiments are allowed – nor Paraben type conservatives…
Silicones – Ingredients from the petrochemical industry (mineral oils, paraffin…) Propylene glycol, peg, edta…
 
*“Ecocert” certification ensures:*

At least 95% of natural ingredients in the final product (the remaining 5% of the ingredients are strictly preset and safe raw materials and active ingredients)
*At least 95% of the herbal ingredients are certified for organic farming*
At least 10% organically certified ingredients in the final product
The materials used for product packaging are recyclable and the products are produced with low energy consumption.
Producers are controlled at all stages at least twice a year.
*Finally, only “Ecocert” requires the use of a fixed percentage of biological ingredients and requires them to be mentioned on the packaging of the product.*
*This element differentiates “Ecocert” from other organizations and ensures absolute consumer confidence worldwide.*
In addition, production, packaging and handling processes are absolutely safe for man and the environment. *(This concerns both the final product and the raw materials from which it is composed)*
 
“ECOCERT” controls manufacturers of plant cosmetics at least twice a year.

*The process involves scrutiny at all levels related to the production chain and not just the products.*

Raw materials
Transport
Storage
Hygiene and Cleanliness
Energy consumption
Waste Management (Recycling)
Assessment of overall quality and control status
Component lists and verification of acquisition procedures
Percentages of biological components
Packaging
Labels
 
*These requirements lead companies to the utmost transparency and guarantee of the impeccable quality of raw materials.
Auditors prepare the report they send to the Certification Committee.
The dossier remains anonymous throughout the completion of the certification process by the Commission.*

*HOW ARE ORGANIC COSMETICS MAINTAINED*
Originally innovative oxygen-free packaging with a dosing cap or spray to avoid hand contact and risk of infection.
Balanced combination of vitamins A, C & E, from natural sources as well as antioxidant ingredients of plant origin.
Innovative solutions and pioneering ideas for the use of ingredients like glucose – glucose oxydase – lactoperoxydase, which were initially used for their anti – aging activity, but soon found to provide antioxidant protection. So they can act as natural preservatives.
Finally, when the quality and safe use of the product and the health of the consumer are not compromised, the use of “Ecocert” synthetic preservatives is less than 0.5%!
Plant Biotechnology research has continuously offered new natural solutions that the laboratories are studying and implementing, always in order to offer greater comfort and efficiency to its products.
*We can say that products always evolve to the benefit of consumers!*


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## Rsapienza (Sep 2, 2021)

My opinion remains the same. While I appreciate your supplied information, I have already done my homework. I’m not really sure if it’s relevant when the conversation left off with you asking where I found information about SCI not being used on babies so you could “find out what these people are talking about”. I provided my source and I feel like somehow the conversation shifted to a different topic. I still believe SCI is not natural by my definition of natural. That will not change no matter what label is thrown on it. It is a synthetic ingredient. Even at 0.5% synthetic, a product is not then natural, IMO. Naturally derived and natural are not necessarily the same.


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## Tara_H (Sep 2, 2021)

How do you reconcile this:


rparrny said:


> Ingredients obtained through chemical processes may not be included in the composition of products certified by “Ecocert”.


With this?


			
				puracy.com said:
			
		

> Sodium cocoyl isethionate is made by reacting sodium isethionate with the fatty acid from coconut oil (or other chlorides).



In fact, I would think disallowing "chemical processes" rules out a very large number of things?


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## rparrny (Sep 2, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> How do you reconcile this:
> 
> With this?
> 
> ...


I think you may be interpreting the sentence differently than intended.  In a nutshell, a synthetic is completely created in the lab, where as certain components may be taken from nature and processed.  "Chemical processes" refer to what chemical components are allowed in the processing of these natural ingredients and although ecocert will permit a natural component to be "processed", the chemicals that they often use for this processing is often not permitted.  Ecocert strictly regulates _what _chemical components may be used in the processing of natural ingredients that carry ecocert certification.


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## amd (Sep 2, 2021)

I see a number of suppliers listing SCI as ECOCERT, but when checking the Cosmos database (the cosmetics side of ECOCERT), it is not in their approved list. My understanding of how SCI is made, as Tara says, would in fact not allow it to be ECOCERT.


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## TennisGirl (Sep 2, 2021)

@rparrny SCI is well-known to makers as a syndet. You absolutely have the right to call it something else if you like, but will have to accept that most everyone else will be confused when you call something other than what everyone else calls it.

Also, if you look at the MSDS, it is listed as hazardous to aquatic life with both acute and chronic (long-term) effects. Not sure how that fits with the EcoCert claims but as you noted earlier, we should be paying close attention to the scientific reports that suppliers publish regarding the ingredients in their products.


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## rparrny (Sep 2, 2021)

Rsapienza said:


> My opinion remains the same. While I appreciate your supplied information, I have already done my homework. I’m not really sure if it’s relevant when the conversation left off with you asking where I found information about SCI not being used on babies so you could “find out what these people are talking about”. I provided my source and I feel like somehow the conversation shifted to a different topic. I still believe SCI is not natural by my definition of natural. That will not change no matter what label is thrown on it. It is a synthetic ingredient. Even at 0.5% synthetic, a product is not then natural, IMO. Naturally derived and natural are not necessarily the same.


I agree but again, you are misusing the term "synthetic"  a synthetic is a component completely man made, in a lab.  SCI is not a synthetic, it is a natural ingredient that has been processed to alter its function.  And if you read the ecocert qualification, you see that they are VERY picky as to what components are allowed in that processing.  Is it natural? Nope, but for certain formulations, where your choices are synthetics or an ecocert certified ingredients, most of us that do organic skin care formulation will choose ecocert every time.  With out it, there would be no formulations with water of any kind, as there are no true "natural" preservatives and anything with water will breed pathogens quickly without preservatives.  Even an anhydrous product like a sugar scrub is at high risk of contamination as it is used in the shower and is likely to be introduced to water.  Unless it's put in an airless pump or maybe a tube, you can't keep it from getting wet...a responsible formulator knows this and will preserve the product.  If they have gone out of their way to create a natural sugar scrub, do you think they want to preserve with a synthetic?  No, and the same goes for lotions and creams.  So although we would love all of our products to be 100% natural, the reality is...it would severely limit our offerings.  Having ecocert certified ingredients gives us the knowledge that these processed, necessary ingredients have been strictly regulated, tested and receive continuous monitoring to ensure a quality product.



amd said:


> I see a number of suppliers listing SCI as ECOCERT, but when checking the Cosmos database (the cosmetics side of ECOCERT), it is not in their approved list. My understanding of how SCI is made, as Tara says, would in fact not allow it to be ECOCERT.


Keep in mind their are many different companies that make SCI, those that follow ecocert standards are certified.  Since some companies may not follow those standards, Cosmos doesn't (and shouldn't) list it as people would think that just _any_ SCI is approved.


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## amd (Sep 2, 2021)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this list:


			https://www.cosmos-standard-rm.org/verifmp.php
		

Allows you to search for ingredients and companies that are ECOCERT.
SCI is not on this list under any name or company.


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## TennisGirl (Sep 2, 2021)

rparrny said:


> I agree but again, you are misusing the term "synthetic"  a synthetic is a component completely man made, in a lab.  SCI is not a synthetic, it is a natural ingredient that has been processed to alter its function.


I think you are missing the point which is that SCI may not be "synthetic" as that term is strictly defined, but every maker I've ever talked to (right up to this discussion) refers to SCI as a syndet. So when you are trying to explain things to others you need to keep in mind that you are the one creating confusion because you are using the term "syndet" in a different way than everyone else. You may be technically correct but you still create confusion.


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## rparrny (Sep 2, 2021)

amd said:


> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding this list:
> 
> 
> https://www.cosmos-standard-rm.org/verifmp.php
> ...


Did you check the raw ingredient database?



TennisGirl said:


> I think you are missing the point which is that SCI may not be "synthetic" as that term is strictly defined, but every maker I've ever talked to (right up to this discussion) refers to SCI as a syndet. So when you are trying to explain things to others you need to keep in mind that you are the one creating confusion because you are using the term "syndet" in a different way than everyone else. You may be technically correct but you still create confusion.


Syndet is a nickname it came from "Synthetic Detergent"  SCI does not fall in the category of a synthetic is it is not a man made chemical, the raw ingredients are natural, but I understand that most people misuse the term.  We will just have to agree to disagree.


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## TennisGirl (Sep 2, 2021)

rparrny said:


> Syndet is a nickname it came from "Synthetic Detergent"  SCI does not fall in the category of a synthetic is it is not a man made chemical, the raw ingredients are natural, but I understand that most people misuse the term.


Please stop talking like none of us know about preservatives, or how to formulate, or even where the term syndet came from. I actually said that exact thing (syndet = synthetic detergent) in post #25 above so it is very condescending for you to act like you have to teach me the basics. It is not necessary to the issues being discussed and comes across as quite arrogant. You know nothing about me or my education or skill level.

You might want to spend some time reading old posts and realizing that most of the people on this thread have been formulating and advocating for preservatives and yes, using SCI with masks - for years. And making a successful living at it, too.


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## rparrny (Sep 2, 2021)

TennisGirl said:


> Please stop talking like none of us know about preservatives, or how to formulate, or even where the term syndet came from. I actually said that exact thing (syndet = synthetic detergent) in post #25 above so it is very condescending for you to act like you have to teach me the basics. It is not necessary to the issues being discussed and comes across as quite arrogant. You know nothing about me or my education or skill level.
> 
> You might want to spend some time reading old posts and realizing that most of the people on this thread have been formulating and advocating for preservatives and yes, using SCI with masks - for years. And making a successful living at it, too.


As a former University Professor, teaching is what I do.  Unfortunately with the number of people in this post, I couldn't be sure who understood the origin of the term and I wish I had the time to review all old posts, but I don't.  I am well aware of the credentials of the membership, I don't think that precludes me from explaining my position or beliefs.  I'm sorry if you felt belittled, but I didn't make you feel that way...you did.  I have no intention of engaging further.  I'm done.


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## TennisGirl (Sep 2, 2021)

I don't feel belittled, I feel ANNOYED that you are clogging up MY thread with unnecessary long-winded explanations about things we already know and which don't relate at all to my original post or the discussion that has spun off from it. I tried saying it more nicely in an earlier response but you apparently don't respond to subtle.

Others' credentials don't make me feel less than, nor does lack of credentials make me assume that someone doesn't know things. I choose not to share my educational level because then people can take me as I am. I either know my stuff or I don't, and when I don't, I am thrilled to learn from anyone with knowledge - credentials or no credentials.


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## Rsapienza (Sep 3, 2021)

rparrny said:


> I agree but again, you are misusing the term "synthetic"  a synthetic is a component completely man made, in a lab.  SCI is not a synthetic, it is a natural ingredient that has been processed to alter its function.  And if you read the ecocert qualification, you see that they are VERY picky as to what components are allowed in that processing.  Is it natural? Nope, but for certain formulations, where your choices are synthetics or an ecocert certified ingredients, most of us that do organic skin care formulation will choose ecocert every time.  With out it, there would be no formulations with water of any kind, as there are no true "natural" preservatives and anything with water will breed pathogens quickly without preservatives.  Even an anhydrous product like a sugar scrub is at high risk of contamination as it is used in the shower and is likely to be introduced to water.  Unless it's put in an airless pump or maybe a tube, you can't keep it from getting wet...a responsible formulator knows this and will preserve the product.  If they have gone out of their way to create a natural sugar scrub, do you think they want to preserve with a synthetic?  No, and the same goes for lotions and creams.  So although we would love all of our products to be 100% natural, the reality is...it would severely limit our offerings.  Having ecocert certified ingredients gives us the knowledge that these processed, necessary ingredients have been strictly regulated, tested and receive continuous monitoring to ensure a quality product.


I guess I am still very confused with your definition of synthetic. Take, for example, plastic, which is a synthetic material made from petroleum, which is pumped out of the earth. It is still a synthetic. I'm pretty sure SCI is made in a lab as well. I understand that to get the Ecocert stamp of approval, many standards must be met, but this does not make them any less synthetic.


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## rparrny (Sep 4, 2021)

I don’t think the issue with petroleum is whether or not it has a natural origin, my understanding of the issue of petroleum is that it can’t be metabolized, it may be carcinogenic, it’s occlusive and it has no nutrient value for the skin. Just because somethings natural doesn’t mean it’s good for you.


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## Rsapienza (Sep 5, 2021)

rparrny said:


> I don’t think the issue with petroleum is whether or not it has a natural origin, my understanding of the issue of petroleum is that it can’t be metabolized, it may be carcinogenic, it’s occlusive and it has no nutrient value for the skin. Just because somethings natural doesn’t mean it’s good for you.


Now, you seem to be the one missing the point. I wasn’t debating any issue with petroleum so your reply is totally irrelevant. Simply giving an example of a synthetic with natural origins. No matter how processed, plastic will always be a synthetic. You have been implying that due to specific processing and other factors, a synthetic can be deemed natural and that simply is not true.


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## rparrny (Sep 6, 2021)

Rsapienza said:


> Now, you seem to be the one missing the point. I wasn’t debating any issue with petroleum so your reply is totally irrelevant. Simply giving an example of a synthetic with natural origins. No matter how processed, plastic will always be a synthetic. You have been implying that due to specific processing and other factors, a synthetic can be deemed natural and that simply is not true.


Ummm...last I looked most if not all plastic is made from petroleum, which as you state is natural


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## Tara_H (Sep 6, 2021)

rparrny said:


> Ummm...last I looked most if not all plastic is made from petroleum, which as you state is natural


So is your position that plastic is natural and not synthetic? Just trying to understand your stance since you seem to be using some of these words quite differently from how they're generally used here.


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## Rsapienza (Sep 6, 2021)

rparrny said:


> Ummm...last I looked most if not all plastic is made from petroleum, which as you state is natural


And your point is….?


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## Justcallmewillie (Sep 6, 2021)

TennisGirl said:


> I've made two different versions of DIY daily shower spray, both work well to keep soap scum at bay:
> 
> 1 part water + 2 parts vinegar
> OR
> ...


The mix I made is 2C distilled water, 1C each alcohol and peroxide, 1 good shot cascade rinse aid, 1/2 tsp Dawn and 2 tsp citric acid. This mix kills germs and prevents mold, doesn’t ruin metal, prevents soap scum and eats hard water deposits. So the solution mixed with acid until dissolved, poured into an opaque bottle to not kill off the peroxide, rinse aid and Dawn last.


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## Bubble Agent (Sep 6, 2021)

For those of you who continue to talk about unrelated topics of plastic, syntethic ingredients, syndets or other topics NOT pertaining to @TennisGirl questions, could you please move this discussion into a new thread instead, and continue your conversation there? That would be helpful. Understandably she is frustrated about this hijack, and have communicated this very clearly.



TennisGirl said:


> I'd like to add EOs to make the spray smell better, but don't want to use dish soap as the solubizer (which is what all the YT folks recommend). Has anyone tried PS80 for this, and if so, how much do you use? TIAFYH.



Yes I have. I love essential oils in my cleaning products, and add them to everything I make (in safe usage rates). Poly80 is very usefull when I have to get them dispersed in a spray without alcohol, or if the alcohol content is not high enough to help disperse the oils.

Depending on the cleaning product I make (_I make powders, scrubs, liquids and dishsoaps_) my dosage is different for the poly.
But in the sprays I use on glass or mirrors I make sure to not use to much as it will make streaks. BUT since you are making a _rinse off shower spray_ to prevent build-up you don`t have to worry about streaks. So you can use between a half a treaspoon to a full teaspoon of poly80 per. litre of water/liquids (that will be 33oz of liquid per google).
But I say that with a caveat, because I don`t know how hard water you have, or other things in your recipe that can skew the results. So the best is to start low, and go from there.

Since essential oils are so concentrated by nature I don`t need much poly80 to help with the emulsification, and use a half a teaspoon in my general blend. But it also depend on the essential oils I use. Citrus oils takes a bit more poly80 than pine or eucalyptus etc, at least in my experience.

If I have been unclear on something please let me know, English is not my original language so I apologize if there is something I have missed


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## rparrny (Sep 6, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> So is your position that plastic is natural and not synthetic? Just trying to understand your stance since you seem to be using some of these words quite differently from how they're generally used here.


There is no argument that SCI isn’t natural, the point is, of the purely synthetic ingredients, how much is there and has it been deemed harmful or beneficial in those amounts.  This started off about PS80 (I believe) for a person with known severe skin reactions.  PS80 has a well known history of skin reactions.  I was simply offering a more natural alternative with a history of being gentle on the skin.  I think this has been discussed ad nauseum and everyone’s positions have been well established.  There is no need for further discussion on the matter.


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## Justcallmewillie (Sep 6, 2021)

rparrny said:


> There is no argument that SCI isn’t natural, the point is, of the purely synthetic ingredients, how much is there and has it been deemed harmful or beneficial in those amounts.  This started off about PS80 (I believe) for a person with known severe skin reactions.  PS80 has a well known history of skin reactions.  I was simply offering a more natural alternative with a history of being gentle on the skin.  I think this has been discussed ad nauseum and everyone’s positions have been well established.  There is no need for further discussion on the matter.


Curious…I just now saw the thread cause I’m new here…but, why add an emulsifier to daily shower spray? EO aren’t supposed to be used heavily anyway snd what little is used should blend in with alcohol without using an emulsifier.


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## rparrny (Sep 6, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> Curious…I just now saw the thread cause I’m new here…but, why add an emulsifier to daily shower spray? EO aren’t supposed to be used heavily anyway snd what little is used should blend in with alcohol without using an emulsifier.


If I remember the original post correctly, there was no ETOH in the formula and although just shaking it would be fine, she was concerned about high concentrations of EOs on her skin during spraying.


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## Justcallmewillie (Sep 6, 2021)

rparrny said:


> If I remember the original post correctly, there was no ETOH in the formula and although just shaking it would be fine, she was concerned about high concentrations of EOs on her skin during spraying.


In a shower spray using EO, let’s say patchouli, i would only use maybe 3 drops per quart. These materials are extremely concentrated and once the carrier evaporates, the EO is left. If she was really concerned with high concentrations of EO, she should use less or use a fragrance oil instead or use nothing in the spray then make up for fragrance in a room spray. Then again, it’s up to her.


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## rparrny (Sep 6, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> In a shower spray using EO, let’s say patchouli, i would only use maybe 3 drops per quart. These materials are extremely concentrated and once the carrier evaporates, the EO is left. If she was really concerned with high concentrations of EO, she should use less or use a fragrance oil instead or use nothing in the spray then make up for fragrance in a room spray. Then again, it’s up to her.


Hence the beginning of this debate, my position being, if you're concerned about skin reactions from EO's, PS80 is an odd choice as it has a history of skin reactions...there are gentler options.


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## Justcallmewillie (Sep 6, 2021)

rparrny said:


> Hence the beginning of this debate, my position being, if you're concerned about skin reactions from EO's, PS80 is an odd choice as it has a history of skin reactions...there are gentler options.


I agree. Plus it makes the entire mix more complicated. I think with this, I’d use the old acronym KISS. Keep it as simple as possible yet effective in what it was designed for. An emulsifier shouldn’t be needed


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## AliOop (Sep 6, 2021)

The latest posts are bordering on impolite, which is probably why the OP hasn't returned. She sounds like she's pretty aware of what her skin can handle, and what it can't. Since she listed PS80 as an option, then I don't see where we have to question that. I have a lot of sensitivities but can use PS80 with no problem. Some of my friends have almost no sensitivities, but can't use CapB, whereas I have no problem with it. Everyone is different, and since she's explained herself very well, I think people should just answer the question.

EDITED: she also said she's highly sensitive to ANY undiluted EO on her skin, so she isn't talking about "high concentrations of EOs" at all. I am the same way, so I can understand the desire to be extra careful. And I have to agree that I like my EOs evenly dispersed. Shaking and spraying leaves oil spots for me.


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## Justcallmewillie (Sep 6, 2021)

AliOop said:


> The latest posts are bordering on impolite, which is probably why the OP hasn't returned. She sounds like she's pretty aware of what her skin can handle, and what it can't. Since she listed PS80 as an option, then I don't see where we have to question that. I have a lot of sensitivities but can use PS80 with no problem. Some of my friends have almost no sensitivities, but can't use CapB, whereas I have no problem with it. Everyone is different, and since she's explained herself very well, I think people should just answer the question.
> 
> EDITED: she also said she's highly sensitive to ANY undiluted EO on her skin, so she isn't talking about "high concentrations of EOs" at all. I am the same way, so I can understand the desire to be extra careful. And I have to agree that I like my EOs evenly dispersed. Shaking and spraying leaves oil spots for me.


I guess I’m lost. I thought this was about shower cleaner or after shower cleaner like “clean shower” so spraying this all over the skin makes no sense to me.  Or is this to be used instead of bathing


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## AliOop (Sep 6, 2021)

No, the OP is making a daily shower treatment to spray down the shower walls and doors (or curtain) after each shower. The purpose is to fight/prevent soap scum buildup. These products are usually sprayed right after the shower is turned off, while one is still inside the shower stall with no PPE (i.e., naked). Thus, there is a strong potential for getting some of the product on the skin due to the misting from the spray bottle.

As I understood what she wrote, she simply wants to add a touch of EO to make it smell nice. However, she absolutely cannot get undiluted EOs on her skin, so she has to solubize them somehow to ensure that any part of the spray that may touch her skin does not include any amount of undiluted EO.

Yes, she could omit the EOs. Yes, she can perhaps use alcohol or syndet dish soap instead of PS80. But her questions were: *how much PS80 or possibly RA should she use to solubize the EOs, and would the RA interact with the CA if she used it in that formula.*

Somehow the entire thread morphed into an argument about "what is a syndet," and a lecture about the "issues" with PS80, and an admonishment how she should just "shake and spray" (which she already said is not an option for her). I'm sure all that off-topic advice was offered with good intent, but the tone was... off. I'll leave it at that.


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## Justcallmewillie (Sep 6, 2021)

AliOop said:


> No, the OP is making a daily shower treatment to spray down the shower walls and doors (or curtain) after each shower. The purpose is to fight/prevent soap scum buildup. These products are usually sprayed right after the shower is turned off, while one is still inside the shower stall with no PPE (i.e., naked). Thus, there is a strong potential for getting some of the product on the skin due to the misting from the spray bottle.
> 
> As I understood what she wrote, she simply wants to add a touch of EO to make it smell nice. However, she absolutely cannot get undiluted EOs on her skin, so she has to solubize them somehow to ensure that any part of the spray that may touch her skin does not include any amount of undiluted EO.
> 
> ...


Gotcha. I read parts of her post. Peroxide does degrade in heat and light but not in an opaque sprayer. I gave her a recipe I use here snd it works great but I don’t add fragrance cause if the alcohol. She’s probably not even reading any of this so it’s wasted effort. If she can’t get EO on her skin then she shouldn’t use it or spray the shower down when she’s out of it. For shower spray I’d use FO. Since the fair trade act, EO have skyrocketed in price. Why spray that down the drain? Or maybe she enjoys spraying gold down the drain…


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## AliOop (Sep 7, 2021)

She said she can't get undiluted EO on her skin. Big difference. 

She has a recipe she likes; she spelled it out in the very first  post. While it was kind to offer yours, she wasn't asking for a recipe -- just advice on the amount of PS80 or something else to solubize the EOs that she wants to use. 

That may not be what you'd choose to do, but this is her post, and those were her questions. It's bad form to insist that her objectives are dumb and that she should do things your way. This forum is one of the friendliest I've ever been on, and I'd like to keep it that way.


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## IrishLass (Sep 8, 2021)

Okay folks, in respect to the OP, it's time to return to the original topic of this thread. Please take any further discussion in regard to what is considered a synthetic or not, to a new thread.

Thank you.

To TennisGirl- whenever I am working with PS80, I find that each EO or FO is different in terms of how much PS80 is needed to get it to fully emulsify. What I do is just add it drop by drop into my otherwise completed spray in a clear beaker or glass on a tared-out scale (stirring in between drops) until I can no longer see a separation. Then I write down in my notes how may grams (and drops) of PS80 it took so that I can duplicate it for the next time.  


IrishLass


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