# Did something gone wrong? Thoughts/advice please



## TruthSeeker (Jan 23, 2018)

right so i made my very first Soap a few days ago, and a "liquid" one at that, and i am VERY unsure of the result. (note: i intend to use this in its paste form, and not dilute it into a liquid  )

the paste has turned into a consistency not unlike peanut butter. if i try the zap test it leaves a stinging fealing but more like a sharp burning sensation than a zap or jolt (a bit like getting a drop of strong habanero sause on your tungue. it's almost immediet but doesnt last as long).
I then made a gamble and tried to use the paste as soap for a quick handwash, and it does seem to work perfectly as a soap cleaning the skin, it has not even a trace of lather, bubbly or creamy, it feels more like your rubbing a tiny bit of oil on them, and looks about the same.

so id rather not reveal the exact recipe, im privat like that... but the main component is Jojoba oil, at 40% of the oils and there is about 15% pine tar in the mix aswell as 10% duckfat.

i measured and premixed the lye solution, a mix of Goats Milk and KOH90%, before measuring and mixing up all the fats, everything was measured to within about 0.2% of the the soapcalc recipe.

After mixing the oils I added the lye solution which had, at this time, thickend quit a bit. I was also unable to scrape out all of the beaker i used so the lye discount is probebly larger than i estimated, and it was calculated to have more than twice the lye discount what i see most here recomend for Liquid soap's....

after adding the lye solution, i miced it for about 2 hours using a mixmaster with a slim bowl (barly larger then the with of the mixing blades)

and now it has been standing to "mature" for about 2 days (the time it took me to have time and energy to look more into this project of mine)

and thats where i am now... and other than the paste getting a a tin layer at the top thats a bit harder and darker then whats underneath. there doesnt seem to be any change to the soap, for now.

so any thoughts and advice you can offer would be greatly Appreasiated 

ps:
I do have a few questions around this soap too. like:
Should the "paste" be as viscus as it is?
Is there a way to harden it a little more, should i?
i have heard a lot about soap having a very high PH value, can i lower this in any easy way.
the scent of my soap turned out to be a lot stronger than expected (pine tar has a potent smell) is there any way to reduce its impact?

 thats all ive got for now xD

 Truth


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## dixiedragon (Jan 23, 2018)

Not a liquid soaper here, but a picture may help.

I'm thinking the jojoba may be a problem. It's technically a wax, not an oil, so I'm not sure how much it saponifies, produces bubbles, et.c


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## Susie (Jan 23, 2018)

You need to do some research on what oils soap up with which qualities.  The main oils for liquid soap are coconut oil, olive oil, castor oil, rice bran oil...jojoba is WAY down the list as it is not a good lather/cleansing oil.  It is also way too expensive and too full of unsaponifiables.  

You are allowed to keep your recipe private...right up until you need help troubleshooting it. At that point, I will ask you to post your recipe in weights.  And if you do not post it, I will stop trying to help troubleshoot it.  Simply because I can't diagnose the problem without all of the information.


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## cmzaha (Jan 23, 2018)

I agree with Susie, if asking for help keeping a recipe private just does not work. I would also guess the jojoba is causing a problem and the pine tar I simply do not know. I have never used it in Liquid Soap. You can be sure I will not be copying your recipe. So if you want help give us all the info. I do not even waste jojoba in bar soap let alone use 40% in LS especially since it is not an oil


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## DeeAnna (Jan 23, 2018)

I agree with Susie and Carolyn. You can tell the full story and get useful help from the group ... or you can protect your privacy and solve your problems by yourself. It doesn't work both ways. 

_Should the "paste" be as viscus as it is?_

KOH soap is a soft soap, so, yes, it is usually viscous. Since I know next to nothing about your particular soap, I can't say whether your soap paste is any different than any of the other KOH soap I've made or seen. 

_Is there a way to harden it a little more, should i?_

KOH soap will never be hard like bar (NaOH) soap. Your previous question implies you thought it would be softer than it is. This question implies you want it firmer than it is. What texture were you expecting?

_i have heard a lot about soap having a very high PH value, can i lower this in any easy way._

Soap made from an alkali (KOH or NaOH) and fat naturally has an alkaline pH. If your soap is properly made and there is no excess alkali, then you cannot lower the pH any lower than it already is if you still want the soap to remain soap. 

If there is excess alkali in the soap, then you can neutralize that. But that is a problem related to your method or your recipe, not a problem of the soap itself.

_the scent of my soap turned out to be a lot stronger than expected (pine tar has a potent smell) is there any way to reduce its impact?_

No. Welcome to pine tar soap.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 24, 2018)

Okay, Truth Seeker, let me see if I can explain this in a way that will help us understand each other...

If this were a baking forum and you wanted to learn how to bake a cake from scratch, those of us who have been there, done that, would expect you to use something like the following ingredients:


> 1 cup sugar (7 ounces)
> 1 1⁄2 cups flour (6 3/4 ounces)
> 1 1⁄4 teaspoons baking powder or 3⁄8 teaspoon baking soda.
> 2 eggs (3 1/2 ounces)
> ...


But instead you didn't use the usual ingredients for making a cake, and that's got us scratching our heads, wondering how to help you??? For example, it's like you used the following ingredients:


4 cups vegetable oil
1 cup molasses
1 pound of lard
1/2 cup milk
2 eggs
Some of the main ingredients are there, but key ingredients are missing. It's hard for me to even begin to explain "what gone wrong".  While I appreciate your creativity and enthusiasm, I just don't know what to say about your first attempt at soap making except that it takes more than a lye calculator, KOH and some specialty oils to create a good soap.

My advice, please go to the Beginner's Forum and find the Sticky for links to  learning to make soap on line. Then try a few small batches to get the hang of it. Once you have a solid foundation, then we can help you with a liquid soap that contains jojoba, pine tar, and duck fat.

BTW, I think it's best to leave the goat's milk out... here's a bit from my Notes on making Pine Tar soap: Natural scent is harsh but mellows as it cures. (If you sub goat's milk, be prepared to banish the soap to an unused room while it cures. The scent of milk and pine tar curing together can bring tears to your eyes!).
HTH (Hope This Helps)   
:bunny:


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## TruthSeeker (Jan 25, 2018)

A lot of good advice here, I am glad i asked  
And I do realise helping me troubleshoot without the full recipe is... Well next to impossible... 

Anyway, I'll leave it to cure for a few more days, and see if that helps in anyway first while I look into the oils a bit more. I looked mostly at the fatty acids content and what each of those brings to a soap, I did not look at what other contents the oils have, nor how to those affects the soap. 

As for choosing oils that do not cleanse much, that was intentional done, as I am aiming towards soap that can be used by someone whose skin is extremely sensitive and has barely any natural skin oil. 

I shall also admit to a failure in realising how different KOH soap is from NaOH soap, as the recipe was originally made to be a bar soap with NaOH, but simply recalculated to use KOH....

Again thanks for all the good advice, and I'll try to get a few good pictures to show of the consistency and texture of the soap as it is now, as well as posting the recipe. 
(i just need to get home and have some time first xD) 

With Thanks 
 Truth


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## Susie (Jan 25, 2018)

While I understand why you thought the unsaponifiables were the answer to adding oil to the skin, it really is necessary to have the saponified oils be there to provide the basis for lather.  You still need either coconut oil, palm kernel oil, or babassu oil.  You will also find you need something to support those bubbles, and castor oil at 5% is awesome for that.  Too much castor oil, however, leads to sticky soap.

If you have no objections to lard, it makes a wonderful soap for dry skin.  As I get older, my already dry skin is rapidly losing what little oil production it already had.  I am finding myself using higher and higher percentages of lard.  It strips far less oil from my skin compared to most other oils (including olive oil).  When I lived where there was soft water, I would increase my superfat from 5% in the summer to 8% in the winter to have it be more dry skin friendly. Now that I live where there is hard water, however, that is no longer a solution.


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## TruthSeeker (Jan 25, 2018)

Right, so trying the soap again, with a more critical eye, I noticed that there seems to be a few tiny boubles in the soap paste that has some not fully saponified Lye still, though i guess/hope these will disipare after curing for more time.

As for thinking about the Unsaponifiables, I did not think about those AT ALL untill it was mentioned here. (oops?) other than what benifits/drawbacks some of the vitamins, antioxidants and minerals has on the skin.... 

and i did look through the sticky's on the beginers forum before i started, but found little information that i was not already aware off, and even less in reguards to Liquid soap, though i will look through them again and see read a bit more thoroughly.

lastly I have included some pictures of the soap paste as it is now (no change in consistency after curing for 2-3 days) and i appolagise in advance if its hard to see, its a very small batch and it was made in a fairly high walled bowl. and i am not experienced in taking pictures of soap xD

I also included a picture of the recipe i followed. hopefully there will be some way of salvaging the soap, possibly adding it to another soap to get it closer to how i want the soap to act and preform.

Sincerly
 Truth:bunny:


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## cmzaha (Jan 25, 2018)

I do want to bring out one point since you mention making this for sensitive skin. Depending on what you are calling sensitive skin you have 3 possible high allergen ingredients, the pine tar, salmon oil and kukui nut oil. Just thought I would throw that out there.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 25, 2018)

You've got way too much Jojoba in your recipe, it's technically a wax not an oil.  You also used a 10% SF which it too high for liquid soap/paste.   I wouldn't consider that a sensitive skin soap at all.  

There's an excellent liquid soap post on the forum.  It's long but contains so much information.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 25, 2018)

I don't understand your choice of fats for this recipe. Did you choose fats with the thought that SOAP made from a particular fat has the same properties as the fat itself? If so, that's not true. 

And even if this idea did work, you cannot just choose fats based on their effect on the skin without also considering their effect on the soap. Use either jojoba or pine tar, but not both. Jojoba should be used in small amounts if you're determined to use it in soap. Pine tar should be included in recipes that factor in its overall effect on the soap. Kukui and salmon oil are high in fatty acids that go rancid quite easily, so they need to be used in moderation for soap.

And I agree with the others -- a soap made for sensitive, dry skin needs to be as mild as possible with no potential triggers for irritation or allergic reaction. If the person for whom you are making this soap has not been tested for sensitivities to jojoba, salmon oil, kukui, and pine tar, I for sure would not be adding them to a soap meant for that person. You could aggravate the very problems you are trying to solve. 

Some of the people responding to this thread have serious skin issues and allergies themselves and know what they are talking about, so please heed their advice.

"...I noticed that there seems to be a few tiny boubles in the soap paste that has some not fully saponified Lye..."

Was the KOH not fully dissolved in water or water-based liquid before you added it to the fats? If the KOH was fully dissolved, then the bubbles are NOT lye. They might simply be air bubbles.


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## TruthSeeker (Jan 25, 2018)

hello again, great to see such quick responses. 

Yes, i am trying to craft this soap for someone who has very sensitiv skin, and i would never dream of disreguarding the great advice i recieve here. 
Your concerns for the alergens in the soap is noted, and appreciated, i am aware of them, and i have made sure they would not cause a problem.

hmm, DeeAnna, i did not think a soap made from a particular kind of fat would have the same properties as the fat itself, i did asume it would retain some of the properties, though the reason for the high SF is presicly because i wanted to keep some of the fats and their properties available after the soap was compleat.

the bubbles that i mentioned i mentioned because they gave a slight burning sensation when rubbed against my skin. thus the assumtion it might be partly unsaponified Lye caught in a pocket of sorts, it was only trace amounts but noticable non the less. though i have litle... no, experience whith this so its just a guess. the KOH was as far as i could tell, fully dissolved.

Lastly i was aware of this being a higly experimental and unortodox recipe. Part of that was caused by an attemt to think outside of normal convetions, a a bad habbit of mine in several cases. And partly to have an experiment that would allow me insight into a subject i knew i had barly scratched the surface off so that i could get the knowlage of what to ask and look for. Following a premade recipe that would most likly cause very few errors or unexpected results would not give the same kind of insight, or such is my belief atleast.

continuing on the choise of oils, i did indeed chose them based of their effects on skin, individualy, and while i would have loved to consider the effects of the fats on the soap, i could not actualy trach down that information, other than how each of the 5 general fatty acids used in soapmaking affect the soap. and even here most of the information i found (mostly from soap queen, bramblebarry, The Sage, and one artical from ModernSoapmaking), said not to worry about having enough of one fatty acid to get such and such lather...

im also tempted to apolegise for jumping the gun in making this soap, but i had already waited more than a year to get the Lye and did not stumble across this forum until about 10 days ago... Sorry :s 
i am now reviewing some 10 of the LovingSoap articles Zany has linked to in the beginners forum. and already seeing a LOT of the information i was looking for this past year (i am actualy suprised google does not link to them when I was searching for that information, even now...)

i am still interested in knowing if and how i could potentialy salvage and use the soap paste that i have made for later though.

Thanks again for all the assistance and advice.
 Truth
:snowman:


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## Susie (Jan 25, 2018)

Go to this thread:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114

Read from post #8 onward.  

This is the recipe I use up to the point of dilution.  There is a reason for it.  It is awesome soap.  If you are still trying to make soap for the person with sensitive skin, and you don't care if the soap is clear or not, and you are intending to leave it a paste, follow a recipe like this: 

Lard 65%
Olive Oil 15%
Coconut Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

But follow the method in the following ways:

Lye Concentration 25% (switch to Soapee.com and use 3:1 ratio)
Use half the water weight as glycerin, mix the KOH with the water, add the glycerin to the oils
Get the soap mixed to full emulsion (stays mixed by itself) or paste, cover and walk away for an hour or so.  Come back and check to see if it is gelled.  If it is, zap test. (we don't rub it on our skin, we touch a bit of the lather to our tongue to test for unsaponified lye).

Read the whole thread.  Loads of awesome info on it.


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## TruthSeeker (Jan 26, 2018)

Ah, I recognise that thread I did have already looked at the much of it before I started,  though I only got about half way through I think. Mostly looking for the actual reason for using glycerin in the soap, 

Also could you please give a more detailed reason for why exactly that recipe, what thoughts are behind it's creation, and so on. 
Also I sadly am not able to get castor oil, and if the lard your referring to is pigs lard... That's sadly quite hard to come by too  duck fat on the other hand is easy  

Truth


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## earlene (Jan 26, 2018)

I am curious where specifically in Northern Europe lard and castor oil are unavailable.  I do not doubt you.  I am just curious.  Is it the cost that is prohibitive or is it something to do with importation restrictions?  Whatever the reason, you can still make soap without them.  There are lots of people who don't use lard in soap (or cooking either, for that matter.)  And even though castor oil (often found in the laxative section of pharmacies in small bottles) is commonly used in many soap recipes, it's still not required.

Given the current state of affairs here in the US, I would not be surprised to see the cost of Castor Oil go up because we depend so heavily on India for our Castor oil.  Maybe some farmers will convert from corn and soy over to castor.  But given the huge cuts to subsidies given to farmers, it's probably too late already.  Living in a farming community, the outlook is grim from where I sit.


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## Susie (Jan 26, 2018)

Glycerin is used to both speed trace and it makes a much thicker (diluted) soap.  Just gives a phenomenal product.

I have not ever made soap with duck fat.   It does not look all that different in the fatty acid profile from lard.  Try it.  

I make IrishLass' recipe for my handsoap.  It makes lovely soap that does not dry out my hands.  I do carry soap paste of the recipe I gave you in a tube to use when at work or out in public as I am allergic to most commercial soaps.


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## TruthSeeker (Jan 27, 2018)

To Earlene, it's curious of you to mention, neither would be impossible for me to get as there are no import restrictions to either, it's just that neither has been traditionally much used here, and so no stores actually carry those items (well you find lard in a few shoe creams for leather boots, but they have been mixed with more ingredients...)  it would be possible to import them from abroad but then with shipping costs and vat added the price skyrockets, (because we have to pay vat for the shipping price too... Grrrr) 

To Susie, I will definitely try it and I'll probably use much of your other advice to craft more spesialist soaps later using IrishLass's and you're recipes as a reference point. 
But a last question, you use this as a hand soap, but how would it work as a full body/showering soap, as that's the usage are I'm aiming for. 

Sad to hear that you're allergic to most commercial soaps, though with all the chemicals in them I'm not that surprised, glad me or my friend does not suffer from allergies, though she suffers from extreme atopical exema caused by her skin not producing much of the oils that are ment to protect it. And I suffer from a hypersensitiv nervous system ( why I could feel some tiny remnants of lye in the soap on my skin even though it passed my zap test... Then again it could have been a an air bubble causing a sudden temperature difference to what I'd imagined traces of lye would feel like. ..) 

Truth :bunny:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 27, 2018)

You can also use tallow instead of lard. It's not exactly the same, but similar.

Or from here https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/webapp...tps:gb/groceries/sainsburys-lard--basics-250g


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## IrishLass (Jan 27, 2018)

If it helps, forum member MySoapyHeart hails from northern Europe and she posted a list of where she gets her soaping supplies: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58479&highlight=supplies+Norway



			
				TruthSeeker said:
			
		

> But a last question, you use this as a hand soap, but how would it work as a full body/showering soap, as that's the usage are I'm aiming for.


 
As with Susie, I use it exclusively as a hand soap, too, but I have tested it out in the shower to see how it performed as an all-over body wash, and although it got me clean without drying me out, it didn't produce the copious amounts of quick-lathering bubbles that I appreciate so much in an all-over shower/bathing soap.

One thing about me- I'm _very_ picky about my lather in my shower/bathing soaps. Basically, I love showering with soaps that give me lots of readily, bubbly/creamy lather without a lot of effort. With the liquid soap in question, I found that I had to use much more of it in the shower than I wanted to in order to get results that were even close to being comparable to how my bar soaps perform (lather-wise) in the shower. 

If one is not as super picky about their lather as I am  , it might work fine for them as a shower soap, but if I were personally ever to choose to regularly use it as a shower soap, I would definitely need to make it in much bigger quantities than I do my bar soap, because I would go through it much, much faster, guaranteed. 

I love it as a hand soap, though.


IrishLass


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## earlene (Jan 27, 2018)

I don't like liquid soap for bathing/showers, but for shaving my legs, that is what I use.  I found that using a foaming pump bottle solved the problem of having to create a thick foamy lather (and not waste time and water with the shower running) getting the thinner liquid soap to lather enough for shaving.  I still don't want to use it for bathing, but for shaving my legs, it's perfect because I never get nicks or cuts from my razor with the LS that I use for shaving.  I originally made it to be a shampoo, however, as a shampoo it totally sucks.  But for shaving my legs and underarms it is out of this world for me, anyway.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 27, 2018)

TruthSeeker said:


> I sadly am not able to get castor oil, and if the lard your referring to is pigs lard... That's sadly quite hard to come by too  duck fat on the other hand is easy



You could try 100% duck fat liquid soap... at least it has enough fatty acids to potentially make a decent hair & body shower gel.

If you don't mind my asking, what soap making oils are available where you are? Olive? Palm? Coconut? Deer or Bear tallow? I was surprised that you had jojoba oil available. Any other "specialty" oils like avocado, flaxseed (aka linseed), almond, sunflower, safflower, etc. What about rosin (from pine trees)?


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## Susie (Jan 27, 2018)

IrishLass said:


> If it helps, forum member MySoapyHeart hails from northern Europe and she posted a list of where she gets her soaping supplies: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58479&highlight=supplies+Norway
> 
> 
> 
> ...



^^^^What IrishLass said!


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## TruthSeeker (Jan 27, 2018)

Thanks, that's very informative, guess I'll experiment around the two recipes to see if I can't make it more shower soap friendly. After testing the original ofc ;xD

And IrishLass that link is very useful, thanks (though shipping is still *****y expensive xD) 

Zany, Currently I have avocado oil, argan oil, kukui nut, and jojoba oil. 
I also have pure pine tar (really easy to get, and I actually had a hard time finding it in an amount less than a gallon xD
Haven't looked at pine rosin, never even herd of actual, but we have a lot of pine and traditions with pine products so I would not be surprised. 
Gave a quick look at the store I bought my oils from and they also have hemp, almond, grape, wheat, makadami, moringa, neem, tamanu, thistle, fennel flowerseed, seaberry and ricin -oil. 
I think I have seen linseed somewhere before, and olive, coconut and sunflower oil is quite common in the grossery store
Haven't really seen much of any animal fats other than duck, but probably cus I haven't looked. 
Probably won't find bear tallow though as there aren't many of them here and hunters are only allowed to shoot them if the become a danger to and attack people. Last time was a year or two ago so whatever tallow might still be available is probably rancid by now  

Looking forward to hearing more from you all, I am learning a lot here
Truth :bunny:


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## Arimara (Jan 27, 2018)

Read This. I will help you out a lot. You really should consider unsaponifiables a little bit more if you want to make a good soap for sensitive skin. Unsaponifiables also tend to trigger allergies for many people as well. That's why whenever I get around to making a soap again, I will steer clear of virgin oils. the refined stuff is safer for my kid.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 28, 2018)

Here's another... read this:

http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/soap-making-oils.html


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## TruthSeeker (Jan 28, 2018)

Both those links are definitely helpful, I already read through that lovingsoap one previously. 
Though Arimara, you say I should be more aware of the unsaponifiables more if I want to make a soap for sensitive skin. To me that would mean the minerals, vitamins, antioxidants, and potentially sugars, in the ingredients. But how each of those will affect the soap I have found very little information on. How each would affect skin is something I do and did look into in quite some depth (it is one of the main reasons why there is so much jojoba oil in my failed recipe). 
I have to admit that my viewpoint was mostly based in chemistry, and I failed to look at how each would interact with each other. 
So... If any of you have anything that could help me understand unsaponifiables and their effects better, I would be thankful  

xD
 Truth

(ps: I am VERY careful when it comes to allergens, and make sure that using an oil that may contain one won't cause regret.
I would ofc make sure to avoid all know allergens had i been crafting for a larger crowd and not individual persons I personally know )


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## Zany_in_CO (Jan 29, 2018)

*Unsaponifiables*



TruthSeeker said:


> If any of you have anything that could help me  understand unsaponifiables and their effects better, I would be  thankful





> _UNSAPONIFIABLES are  a large group of compounds called plant steroids or sterolins. They  soften the skin, have superior moisturizing effect on the upper layer of  the skin and reduce scars. The sterolins in avocado oil have been found  to diminish age spots. Oils with the highest unsaponifiables are shea  butter, avocado oil, sesame oil, soybean oil and olive oil._ (From my files; source unknown)


So, that's why shea butter; avocado, sesame, soybean and olive oils are highly desirable in CP and HP hard bars for their conditioning effects. However, in Liquid Soap, they present a bit of a problem in that unsaponified bits float free -- and a high % superfat adds to the problem because it allows more free floating oil, which leads to a greater probability of the soap going "off", i.e., rancid. Not good. :sad:

*Oils for Liquid Soap*



TruthSeeker said:


> ...I have avocado oil, argan oil, kukui nut,  and jojoba oil; pine tar; at the store ...hemp, almond, grape, wheat,  makadami, moringa, neem, tamanu, thistle, fennel flowerseed, seaberry  and ricin -oil; ...I think I have seen linseed somewhere; ...olive,  coconut and sunflower oil is quite common.


Hiya Truth,

Sorry I haven't been able to get back to you sooner. That's a nice selection of oils, altho I'm not familiar with some of them -- wheat (as in "wheat germ"?), thistle, flowerseed, seaberry, ricin; and I've only seen fennel as an essential oil. Neem, tamanu, and fennel are said to be beneficial for skin issues:

*Neem Oil* can be used as a majority soapmaking oil blend because it is easy to saponify (with its balanced blend of saturated and unsaturated fatty acids), and because it contributes hardness and conditioning properties to its soaps. Use rate: 10-40% Downside: It is odorific! LOL

*Tamanu Oil - *Use rate: 5% in lotions, etc. 
This slightly waxy oil is a traditional medicine for its analgesic, anti-inflammatory and cicatrizant properties. Formerly used to treat leprosy. It is soothing for eczema and skin irritations; for relieving pain, healing wounds, herpes lesions and post-surgical scars. A combination of tamau and Ravensara aromatica essential oil has been used successfully as a treatment for shingles.

I was happy to see coconut oil! However, I'm concerned that it may be "hydrogenated" for cooking and will not perform as well as the coconut oil 76°F which is generally used in soap. 

Here's some info from my files for your consideration:



> ZANY’S NOTES ON WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS (Collected from a variety of sources.)
> 
> _It isn't a problem if your oils cause clouding. Some people LIKE the "creamier" look of LS. The problem is that if you are not experienced, you won't know if the clouding is from the formula or from it not saponifying properly._ HTH Sharon
> 
> ...



QUOTE (Failor): _ROSIN saponifies much like an oil but without any  resulting glycerin. It gives a smooth cold cream finish to the lather  and also acts as a detergent and preservative. To calculate - Rosin has  the same SAP value as Wheat Germ Oil. (NOTE: May cause contact  dermatitis in sensitive individuals)_

*Lard vs Duck Fat; Pine Tar; Jojoba*

Now, let's take a look at your original recipe using Duck Fat, Pine Tar and Jojoba. One at a time, I put each one into SoapCalc at 100% to see Fatty Acid content.

This pic shows Lard (*One*) vs. Duck Fat (*All*). As Susie suggested earlier, Duck Fat maybe a reasonable sub for Lard, so that's a keeper:



*Jojoba* is a keeper as well, used at 1-2% because that's a sufficient amount to feel the "conditioning" benefit and any more than that may participate out and create a waxy surface on the finished LS (just a guess; not sure):


Pine Tar deserves further investigation, although it has zero fatty acid content and, therefore no SAP value, and functions as an additive in soap -- both hard bars and liquid soap. I may have a recipe in my files for adding pine tar to LS. Not sure.


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## TruthSeeker (Feb 2, 2018)

you Zany are a god xD
This has cleared up a lot of my questions and given me a lot more understanding. and yes the Wheat oil is Wheat germ oil.
and not to worry about not being able to reply for the duration, i have just recently been able to get back to the forum.

We May have Canola oil though. I suspect its not of a type good for soap making, here its name is VERY different, and is based around the rapeseed name... (not sure i like that English version...) anyway, this oil is also quite common to see in large amounts in the general store (over the past few years it has even overtaken the Extra virgin olive oil that has been the main cooking oil here since i was little,though we traditionally mostly use butter)

i am interested in the Rosin but with its warning of possibly causing contact dermatitis on people with sensitive skin, i do not think i should consider it for a soap i'm making for someone with very sensitive skin who already suffers from the condition....

i'm trying to think of a new soap recipe now, based around 80% olive and duck fat in around equal measure (not sure what i want more of in it yet.) reducing the tar to 8-10% and leaving the remaining 10-12% to be filled with conditioning oils such as Jojoba, Aragan, maybe avocado(i am strangely adverse to avocado oil), and potentioaly Canola oil if i find it to be the right kind, and although the Tamanui interests me a lot, i am not sure i can afford any more ingredients at this time ;(
(i also found lard btw, but only in rather large batches...)

last i could not care less about the appearance of the Soap at least to start with, that is a worry for later  (its mostly going to be used as a paste anyway xD)
That it has a good strong lasting lather would be nice, preferably a creamy type more than a bubbly one...
and the conditioning effects are of paramount importance, especially if it can help protect the skin in the long run between washes.

as for odur, im putting pine tar in this, thats going to kill overpower most other odurs no matter what.... (and it suposedly works as a great preservative to keep other oils from going rancid, saponified or otherwise)

with thanks
 Truth


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## TruthSeeker (Feb 3, 2018)

oh, just remembered another question.
when i made my failed CPLS, it created very little heat, the highest temperature it ever reached was about 85F and was i suspect it was mostly caused by the mixer...
i do preform my crafting in a very cold location, so stuff cools down very quickly.
will this cause any problems, or cause any change in the prossess?

love.
 Truth


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## Susie (Feb 3, 2018)

TruthSeeker said:


> oh, just remembered another question.
> when i made my failed CPLS, it created very little heat, the highest temperature it ever reached was about 85F and was i suspect it was mostly caused by the mixer...
> i do preform my crafting in a very cold location, so stuff cools down very quickly.
> will this cause any problems, or cause any change in the prossess?
> ...



I would then question the purity of your KOH.  KOH mixed with water gets VERY hot VERY fast.  So hot it almost boils the water.  DeeAnna has instructions on how to test for purity  here:  
https://classicbells.com/soap/lyePurity.html

You also need to re-think using pine tar until you get basic soapmaking down.  You are trying to formulate a high difficulty soap when you need to learn how to make soap first.  Walk before you run.


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## TruthSeeker (Feb 3, 2018)

Susie said:


> I would then question the purity of your KOH.  KOH mixed with water gets VERY hot VERY fast.  So hot it almost boils the water.  DeeAnna has instructions on how to test for purity  here:
> https://classicbells.com/soap/lyePurity.html
> 
> You also need to re-think using pine tar until you get basic soapmaking down.  You are trying to formulate a high difficulty soap when you need to learn how to make soap first.  Walk before you run.



*Susie *I do not doubt your knowledge in soapmaking or your skills in it, but your doupt in me is somewhat wounding.
It is not basic soap making that confounds me. it is the intricacies of crafting a very specialized product, and eliminating various variables that might effect the aspects of the soap. If all i wanted was to make a common soap with the common oils for anyone to use i would probably not be here.

As for your concerns, the Lye i have no doubt is 90% pure KOH, its purchased from a highly reputable laboratory supplier. Due to the rules here in my country, (that also make it exceedingly hard to get pure chemicals, unless you own/work in a laboratory with multiple people) if its found that they miss-labeled the contents in their wares they loose their license to sell chemical supplies, and has to pay a rather large fine. (i did go and check though just be be safe ;p )

for the lye mixture itself in my first attempt i, use goats milk, and to avoid a heat issue with the lye scorching the milk i froze the milk and mixed it with the lye as crushed ice, ( it clearly caused enough heat to rapidly melt the iced milk, but not enough to heat the mix up to more then a bit over room temp)

the reason i was asking is that am sure i remember having read that the Lye solution and the oil's are also supposed to heat up a fair amount from the chemical reaction them inbetween. this is where i took note of the lack of heating that i was expecting, though it did keep a rather stable temperature around 85F despite the room i'm working in holding roughly 60F.
both the oils and lye solution was slightly above normal room temperature when mixed together (mostly to keep the duckfat in a non-solid state)

As for the Pine tar.... it is one of the key ingredients i am trying to utilize,  it is also actually the only ingredient i had, prior to this thread, full knowledge on what kind of impact it has on the properties of soap. with the exception of lather (in that i found no reference to it having impact on lather other than a mention that soap with pine tar will still have a nice white colored lather) and the potency of the smell  (i'm glad to say it does mellow out after a some days of curing).
From the example recipes i found, as well as the various papers on pine tar soap, (and a few other pine tar skin products out of curiosity), the use of up to 25% pine tar in a soap recipe is not uncommon, but anything over this was hard to come by (i found one historical recipe using 30% pine tar, 20% trout oil, and 50% lard that was quite common (it was the high class soap of the time), the most common one of the same time was 15-20% tar and 75-80% trout oil. i would rather not try to imagine the smell.... ;p ).
i have reduced the amount of tar i am interested in using in my second recipe due only to smell, but i am considering returning it back to 15% and i will later most likely look at a recipe with 20% pine tar.

And with that i ask again, would the low working/soaping temperature cause any potential problems that i might need to consider into the soap making process?

 Truth


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## toxikon (Feb 4, 2018)

TruthSeeker said:


> If all i wanted was to make a common soap with the common oils for anyone to use i would probably not be here.



I find this a bit confusing... Instead of trying a tried-and-true GOOD liquid soap recipe to first see what liquid soap should be, you prefer to randomly develop your own recipes without the core foundation and will probably end up throwing away bad soap until your experiments hopefully turn out right?

I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to wrap my mind around your goals. 

I personally think a better approach would be:

1. Try making a small batch of a tried-and-true recipe to get your technique down and make your own decisions on how the lather feels, how your skin feels, etc

2. Choose one or two things about the recipe that you'd like to change. Maybe you want more bubbles - try upping the coconut oil percentage. You want to use avocado oil instead of olive oil, etc.

3. Make a few small experimental batches and compare them to the tried-and-true.

Keep good notes on what you like and dislike and you'll be well on your way to creating a recipe you love, instead of wasting ingredients by starting from square one with a random assortment of oils.

Good luck!


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## SaltedFig (Feb 4, 2018)

Gidday TruthSeeker,

(I am not a pine soap specialist, just to be clear)

I've just popped in to offer a small thing. The purity of the KOH is not about contaminents from the supplier, but more to do with it's astounding ability to soak up water from the surrounding environment.

I tested this, and weighed out a measure of caustic crystals on a sensitive digital scale (in grams to two decimal points).
And then watched the weight change.
It is fast, and the change is large.
With even a little humidity, the caustic will reduce to a puddle in short order.

So the point of commenting on purity isn't to disparage your supplier, but to offer the very distinct possibility that your KOH has absorbed some moisture.

The link that Susie gave you was a way for you to test what percentage purity you have for this reason.



Susie said:


> I would then question the purity of your KOH.  KOH mixed with water gets VERY hot VERY fast.  So hot it almost boils the water.  DeeAnna has instructions on how to test for purity  here:
> https://classicbells.com/soap/lyePurity.html


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## Susie (Feb 4, 2018)

^^^^What they said!

I am not trying to discourage you in any way.  But until you know a few certain things, you are never going to get where you know how to formulate that soap.  

The first thing you need to know is the purity of that KOH.  Period.  That mixture should be HOT.  So hot it will melt the plastic bell of my old stickblender.  Not that you need to add heat, but that reaction should cause enough heat to leave you in no doubt that it is hot.  So I gave you a link to how to test that purity.

Second thing you need to know is what a properly formulated soap recipe acts like when it is being created, and how it acts when you use it.  To that end I gave you a couple of recipes that I know will give you great soap.  From there you can judge your own soap against it, or tweak either of those recipes to suit you.

I am trying my hardest to give you the tools that I know will help ensure your success.  But I can't do it for you.  I am not going to try a hundred recipes using the ingredients you want to use to give you a perfected recipe.  That is your responsibility.  

If you don't want to take the best advice I can give you, then do not blame me for failures.  I wish you the best of luck going forward.


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## TruthSeeker (Feb 4, 2018)

Oh, i am going to use both the recipes you gave me, and the recipe that IrishLass  recommended, as well as a 100% olive oil soap, and a 100% duck fat soap as Zany suggested, to feel what a good paste will end up as. Before i experiment again. (later i might even try 100% soaps of the exotic oils to see how that turns out, just for curiosities sake. If i can easily make sufficiently small batches to be practical that is.)
my brain just leaps further ahead, than my actions are able to keep op with hand thus has already started formulating the beginnings of the recipe i want to use for that next experiment (i am tempted to making all of them at the same time and see the differences next to each other from start to finish....  just need another few mixers xD)


as for the KoH.... i did use the link and tested the purity of the KOH before my last reply, and mentioned such, in a bi-note somewhere there.... and it is 90% pure.
anyway
i don't have any explanation as to why i did not notice any significant heat buildup, other then not checking it enough, and having a very small batch with a mixer that potentially lets a lot of air circulate around the soap. (i don't have an emulsion/stick blender, i'm using a hand mixer)

i would also like to apologize to you, Susie, for seeing just the worst possible meaning of your post.
i guess i should keep away from the forums when i'm not feeling well, is tired AND hungry at the same time..... oops :s (i had just recovered from Food poisoning)
actually i apologize to all of you lovely folks, who have helped me this far, and had to read my post laced with such annoyance.... Sorry

Sincerly
 Truth


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## penelopejane (Feb 4, 2018)

The thing is that there are heaps of threads where a newbee says can I use xxx oil on LS? Susie types a reply that xxx oil makes cloudy soap use yyy oil.

Newbee ignores advice makes said LS and comes back and says: hey! My LS is cloudy. What went wrong and how do I fix it?

Susie replies: use yyy oil.
Luckily Susie, like all of the gurus on this forum, is very tolerant.

Hope you’re feeling better!


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## SoapingChick (Feb 11, 2018)

Just wanna tell you that you prob do have acces to castor oil - where I’m from it’s called Ricinus, I noticed you had ‘ricin’ on your oils-available list. Guessing it’s the same.. (don’t know if anyone else has chimed in w that, gave up reading around post #25)

Happy soaping/researching!!


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## Saffron (Feb 11, 2018)

@ Truthseeker - Are there any Asian grocery stores where you live? They usually stock castor oil and a whole host of other oils. That's where I get my castor oil from.


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## earlene (Feb 11, 2018)

As mentioned by SoapingChick above, your ricin oil should be Castor oil.  (Here is an article from the European Food Safety Authority in which it is called Ricin.)


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## TruthSeeker (Feb 19, 2018)

sorry about the late reply, i have been rather busy with studying and work, now i am trying to find some time and energy to make some test batches with olive and duck, aswell as the previusly sugjested recipes ;p

@SoapingChick, no one has mentioned that before you, so thanks for the info, its definitly good to know 

and thank you for the link Earlene really helpfull in clarifying 

with Love
 Truth


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