# 100% natural ...is it worth it?  Aspen Bark preservative



## eden (Aug 14, 2008)

What is it worth to claim 100% natural on your label?  The new aspen bark preservative would add about $15 to the cost of production for 1 gallon of lotion ...if I have a wholesale market established ...that increases my retail price by nearly $4.00 per 8oz bottle ...is it woth it?  If I use Germall powder, I can already claim 99.8% natural ...if I use Optiphen, I can claim 98% ( keeping my other factors in place of course) ...  100% sounds great!* BUT *...will it sound that much better to the consumer to justify the added cost?  Should it maybe be a speciality that is offered, rather than the entire line - giving people the choice?  Thanks for any input!


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## jettibo (Aug 14, 2008)

I would suggest making it a specialty item and seeing how it sold.  If you notice everyone flocking to it then drop the other line of lotions.  Otherwise, keep both.  To be honest, when I buy handmade products I assume most things are all-natural.  I was actually surprised to come on here and see that there are people that use so many preservatives.  I guess my point is that if you can, label it slightly different than 100% all-natural because it may bring attention to the fact that your others aren't.  I'm not sure what would fit.  Maybe simply "All-natural", "organic", "vegan", etc.


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## Tabitha (Aug 14, 2008)

According to many of the big companies, including Burt (formerly) of Burt's Bees, if your product is 98% or more natural, you can claim on the label it is all natural. I am not saying this is right or wrong. Just pointing it out. The FDA had decided they do not want to come up w/ an acctual definition for the term all natural so Burt did & many people are following the guidline he set, which is 98% or more.

Is there a way for you to poll your customers?

In a few of my products I labe/list them as natural & at the very end of the description I write something to the effect of "This items was 100% natural prior to the addition of fragrance oil  /or prior the addition of preservative."


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## eden (Aug 14, 2008)

jettibo said:
			
		

> ... To be honest ...  I was actually surprised to come on here and see that there are people that use so many preservatives.. .



I appreciate the input & thanks for the info from 'Burt'  Tabitha

 ...good points as well Jettibo ...but I'm sure you understand the need for preservatives - I don't think it's that we use _so_ many ...I think most of us try to get by with as little as necessary - and unfortunately it is necessary!   In the case of 'bugs' or preservatives, preservatives wins out!  And bugs you will get w/o a preservative....I know of one big company (& I'm sure there are others), which uses alcohol as their preservative

 ...I'm glad to know that 98% natural qualifies as an 'all natural' product - that helps alot!  And I also like the way you word it Tab!


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## Tabitha (Aug 14, 2008)

> To be honest, when I buy handmade products I assume most things are all-natural. I was actually surprised to come on here and see that there are people that use so many preservatives.


Products w/o preservative are breeding grounds for all sorts of bacterias. I am always surprised when I see someone who doesn't use preservative.

I agree eden, if I have to choose between bacteria in my lotion or preservative, I am going with preservative.


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## carebear (Aug 19, 2008)

eden said:
			
		

> What is it worth to claim 100% natural on your label?  The new aspen bark preservative would add about $15 to the cost of production for 1 gallon of lotion ...if I have a wholesale market established ...that increases my retail price by nearly $4.00 per 8oz bottle ...is it woth it?  If I use Germall powder, I can already claim 99.8% natural ...if I use Optiphen, I can claim 98% ( keeping my other factors in place of course) ...  100% sounds great!* BUT *...will it sound that much better to the consumer to justify the added cost?  Should it maybe be a speciality that is offered, rather than the entire line - giving people the choice?  Thanks for any input!


unless you find the ingredients growing on a tree in the form in which you use them it's not really "all natural" anyway - so use your preservative and make a safe product.  But that's just *MY* take on it.


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## eden (Aug 20, 2008)

course I use a preservative ...maybe you missed something.  I was debating the expense of a _natural _preservative( aspenbark extract) for the sake of labeling 100% natural ...verses germall or opti ...I would never skip the preservative.  _(Our ingredients may be altered from their original state, but they are naturally derived, not synthetics created in the lab, making them 'natural' as far as I'm concered - as long as they are not PEGs or ethoxylated ; except for our preservatives ...and FOs,  at least IMHO)_ ...that was really my question, not wether or not to use a preservative at all ...I *always *strive to make a safe product & wuold never dream of doing anything but ...I do appreciate all input! Thanks so much!


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## carebear (Sep 1, 2008)

perhaps I did. 

I was challenging the word "natural".  Cause naturally derived doesn't mean squat to me - gasoline is derived from nature..., so is high fructose corn syrup (even better, it's the result of the operation of live organisms!!).


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## eden (Sep 2, 2008)

carebear said:
			
		

> perhaps I did.
> 
> I was challenging the word "natural".  Cause naturally derived doesn't mean squat to me - gasoline is derived from nature..., so is high fructose corn syrup (even better, it's the result of the operation of live organisms!!).



no problem carebear! 

 The word 'natural' is really up for a lot of debate, I know ...and if we are using something like a synthetic fragrance ...why spend the extra on a 'natural' preservative ...makes no sense 

...as far as the label of 'natural' ... or 'naturally derived' ...I figure if I take 2 natural ingredients & make a new ingredient, or extract it from an ingredient ...even though the ingredient I just created may not occur on it's onw in nature ...it still comes from a totally natural begining ...making it 'natural' in my mind ...like pectin ...does pectin grow on tress?    

Of course it is true that many 'natural' or 'naturally derived' ingredients are not necessarily good ( for you ) and of course we would not use everything that is natural on our skin - or at all in anything. Arsenic & lead are natural ...who would  debate their use?  That's where our research comes in - for us to decide wether or not it is 'natural' enough for each of us ...yes,* natural can be a tough thing to define!*
oh, BTW ...yogurt & buttermilk contains living organisms ...cheese is made with them  ...active yeast is a live organism ...so even that may be good or bad depending upon the individual case.

Please don't think I'm being argumenitive ...I think this is a wonderful discusion - it is a learning experience for myself as well!


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## carebear (Sep 2, 2008)

debate is healthy.  it gives each person involved (and reading) the opportunity to learn and grow.

an open mind is a wonderful thing and something I aspire to improving on personally.

and sometimes we just have to agree to disagree - but that's not a bad outcome either!

(and the reference to high fructose corn syrup was meant in the reverse of the way I think you took it.  generally I think people believe that stuff from living organisms are very earthy and healthy like yogurt, but even bad stuff like the HFCS can be produced that way too)


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## eden (Sep 2, 2008)

carebear said:
			
		

> ... the reference to high fructose corn syrup was meant in the reverse of the way I think you took it.  generally I think people believe that stuff from living organisms are very earthy and healthy like yogurt, but even bad stuff like the HFCS can be produced that way too)



 I bet you're right ...people do mostly think produce of L.O. to be beneficial  - myself included - that was a great piece of info about the HFCS! Something I didn't know!  ( of which there is much!!)  Great forum!


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## aimee (Sep 15, 2008)

From a customer point of view I think 98% natural sounds pretty good and probably a bit more realistic!!


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## Sanghama (Sep 26, 2008)

What an interesting discussion, I've never heard of that new preservative.
Yet another new ingredient to research!!! LOL

I have a certain philosophy which governs the ingredients I choose.  So for me to make a decision on a new ingredient or product it's pretty much cut and dried.  

Yes there are some pretty dodgy handmade products out there, but the majority of handmade stuff I've seen are streets ahead of the mass produced, chemically laden 'beauty products' the major shops sell.  And don't forget the intent of the manufacturer too - those made and handled with love and care have to be much better for you than the mass produced ones.  

And btw, I think 98% is pretty darned good


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## Krystal (Sep 28, 2008)

I'm sure this is gonna seem like a silly question, but I am a bit of a newbie to this.....what preservatives do you all use to put in your soaps? I think I remember seeing grapefruit oil or something on some other site as being one of them, but what are the others? Right now, I'm working with M&P soap. I'm glad I saw this before I got all soap making happy, :shock:  lol!! Thanks in advance


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## carebear (Sep 29, 2008)

in soap? no preservative.

some put antioxidants in oils for CP soaping - I don't.


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## eden (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't believe that MP would need any type of preservative at all.  The 'grapfruit oil' you are refering to is most likely Grapefruit Seed Extract which is used to prevent rancidity in oils ... it's a good idea to use an antioxidant in Cold Process ( aka CP ) soap, to prevent rancidityof the unsaponified portions of oil.  Rosemary Oleoresin Extract is great for this ...perhaps a better choice than GSE.  I'm not sure if GSE *is* actually an antioxidant, but it does help - myself however, I'd just use the ROE.  Anyway - welcome to the forum!


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## pink-north (Oct 9, 2008)

I have a creme that I bought from a company that makes hand-made cream. It doesn't have any preservatives that I know of but uses Tocopherol (vitamin E). Is this tocopherol a preservative or can it be used as one? :? 

FYI: Here's the ingredient list;
olive oil
aloe vera gel
witch hazel
coconut oil
water
emulsifying wax
beeswax
sodium borate
cocoa butter
vitamine E (tocopherol)
essential oil of calendula

Do you see any preservative on this list?


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## eden (Oct 9, 2008)

...there has to be a preservative ...there just has to be - witch hazel has _some_ alcohol content but I doubt enough to preserve anything - the maker of this cream seems to not be completely disclosing their ingredient list ...unfortunately it happens ...are these listed with their appropriate INCI names? This really ticks me off when people do this (this is not intended to the poster ... Pink North - I don't mean you ...I mean the maker of the cream).  I see this all the time at shows & it just ticks me off  :?  :x  :shock:  btw - tocopherol is an anti-oxidant to prevent rancidity of oils ...it does not protect against mold & fungus


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## pink-north (Oct 9, 2008)

No the names I listed are exactly as they appear on the jar. It wasn't cheap cream either. I have another one I purchased which has bee propolis in it which is said to preserve things, but I'm as miffed as you are. Perhaps they use so little preservative they don't bother mentioning it. Not a good practice in my opinion, considering the high number of allergens.


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## eden (Oct 10, 2008)

yes ...so for starters, this maker has not labeled their product according to the law ...so it could be possible that they are intentionally leaving the preservative off the label, so as to let the public think it's preservative free ...arg!


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## pink-north (Oct 12, 2008)

So in your opinion what would be a good preservative to use?


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## eden (Oct 13, 2008)

well - this post was originally about Aspen Bark extract - trade name of Naturecide ...but very expensive right now - hopefully it will come down in time -  I would love to work with ...currently _I_ use Otiphen Plus & Germall Plus ( trade names ) - my biggest concern is to ne paraben free


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## poviry (Nov 28, 2012)

Eden, did you get to use Aspen Bark preservative? I have a little experience in skin care production, I would say I'm almost new. Very interested in Aspen Bark Extract, looking for the info about some real use of this preservative in creams, lotions, or serums. If you tried it could you share, please?


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