# FDA responds to PO Box Petition



## Cindy2428 (Jan 8, 2015)

I received this e-mail from the Guild this morning. Thought I would pass it along.

*FDA Responds to PO Box Petition*

 Posted by Executive Director on 8 January 2015, 4:00 am 
  In August of 2012, the HSCG wrote a Citizen Petition to the FDA – Department of Health & Human Services, regarding the use of a PO Box in the place of a street address on a cosmetic label.  We did this mainly for the safety of the small businesses that make up the handcrafted soap and cosmetic industry as many of them operate out of their primary residence.   In February of 2013, we received an interim response from FDA stating that they were still reviewing the request and had not reached a decision.  The original petition as well as the supporting documentation can be viewed online at regulations.gov.
 In November of 2014, we decided to send in a supplement letter to the petition to update FDA with our new name (the association changed from The Handcrafted Soapmakers Guild to The Handcrafted Soap & Cosmetic Guild in February of 2013) and our significant increase in membership (182% since the first petition).  We again requested that a PO Box be allowed in the place of a street address on a cosmetic label.
*We received a final response letter from FDA denying our request to change the current regulation.  You can read the full letter here.*
 Even though the request was denied and the regulation will not change, there was some clarification on what constitutes a “telephone or city directory”.  You need to pay close attention to this…
 Under current regulation, the business name and address (full street address) of the person or business responsible for the product must be on every cosmetic label.  The business address must include the street address, city, state and the ZIP code unless the business is listed in a current city or telephone directory under the business name.  In the response letter from FDA dated November 14, 2014, they defined “city directory or current telephone directory” as both print AND online and that either would satisfy the option under the current regulation if the street address is not listed on a cosmetic label.  They further offer the following examples of acceptable online directories that are “no cost or nominal cost” annually:


http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com (currently $29.99/month) 
www.localpages.com (powered by Yext.com – currently $16/month for entry level) 
www.yellowbook.com (powered by hibu.com – charges vary) 
www.yellowbook360.com (powered by hibu.com – charges vary) 
http://business.thewebmap.com/ (powered by prweb.com – charges vary) 
*www.yellowpages.com (FREE)*
 *What this means for a small handcrafted soap and cosmetic business is that in order to meet the requirement under the regulation, to omit your street address, you would only need to list your business in one of these directories annually. * It would be important to keep the listing up to date with current information.
 On the one hand, we were disappointed that a PO Box was not accepted but it was nice to see that the FDA is taking advantage of the non-traditional directory options offered by the internet.  On the whole, this is great news for our industry.


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## lionprincess00 (Jan 8, 2015)

So not print AND online, it means print OR online?

That's wonderful! So what would a veteran recommend putting as a contact on the soaps?


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## lpstephy85 (Jan 8, 2015)

This is wonderful news and was happy when I saw this email this morning as well. The hubby is always concerned that our address is on my products so I am definitely going to look in to getting a listing with the yellow pages.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 8, 2015)

I too am going to do a YP listing.  My husband doesn't want our address on the labels either.


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## Cindy2428 (Jan 8, 2015)

My understanding is that it can be either - as long as it is published by a recognized entity which lists the address along with the phone number. So basically your home address is still available, but it makes for additional work for someone to find. Hopefully some drug whackoo doesn't know how to use the reverse listing feature in the white-yellow pages. It's not full protection, but better. Lionprincess, I'm not selling yet but I would definitely have a separate phone line for business. In my previous life as a traveling manager, I used to get calls, faxes at all hours. I added a second phone line and it made all the difference.


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## lionprincess00 (Jan 8, 2015)

Thx Cindy! I don't sell either, but I am storing all tidbits of information and making sure if I do sell one day, the startup goes smoothly. This is great info to have for the future, thank you!


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## OliveOil2 (Jan 8, 2015)

Thank you for sharing the information, I noticed that in the beginning of the letter it said "cosmetic" and wonder if there is any difference since plain soap isn't considered a cosmetic?  Maybe just hoping, because I really do not like my home address out there. If they are not going to accept a p.o. box guess they won't accept an email address either? I had a previous business listed with the yellow pages, and at that time an ad was required, and it was crazy expensive. Will have to check out an online only listing, since that was back when people actually used the yellow book.


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## Earthen_Step (Jan 8, 2015)

I don't know which is worse though.  An easy online search to find my address, or on the physical label.  The label could have much less exposure.


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## Earthen_Step (Jan 8, 2015)

OliveOil2 said:


> Thank you for sharing the information, I noticed that in the beginning of the letter it said "cosmetic" and wonder if there is any difference since plain soap isn't considered a cosmetic?  Maybe just hoping, because I really do not like my home address out there. If they are not going to accept a p.o. box guess they won't accept an email address either? I had a previous business listed with the yellow pages, and at that time an ad was required, and it was crazy expensive. Will have to check out an online only listing, since that was back when people actually used the yellow book.



Soap using no "cosmetic" phraseology is free from this law.  How you label and market your soap determines if it is a cosmetic or soap.

See the FDA site for information -USA Only (click here).


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 8, 2015)

OliveOil2 said:


> Thank you for sharing the information, I noticed that in the beginning of the letter it said "cosmetic" and wonder if there is any difference since plain soap isn't considered a cosmetic?  Maybe just hoping, because I really do not like my home address out there. If they are not going to accept a p.o. box guess they won't accept an email address either? I had a previous business listed with the yellow pages, and at that time an ad was required, and it was crazy expensive. Will have to check out an online only listing, since that was back when people actually used the yellow book.



US only - 
Plain soap is not a cosmetic, you're right.  Anything that we make here for use on the body that is intended for anything other than cleaning (creams, balms, soaps with certain tag words, shaving soaps etc) are cosmetics.


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## Soapsense (Jan 15, 2015)

Quote"Under current regulation, the business name and address (full street address) of the person or business responsible for the product must be on every cosmetic label. The business address must include the street address, city, state and the ZIP code unless the business is listed in a current city or telephone directory under the business name."

If the business is now listed, (I did the Yellow Pages). Does this mean that no address at all is needed?


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## Earthen_Step (Jan 15, 2015)

Soapsense said:


> Quote"Under current regulation, the business name and address (full street address) of the person or business responsible for the product must be on every cosmetic label. The business address must include the street address, city, state and the ZIP code unless the business is listed in a current city or telephone directory under the business name."
> 
> If the business is now listed, (I did the Yellow Pages). Does this mean that no address at all is needed?



Correct


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## Soapsense (Jan 17, 2015)

This is awesome.  I not only have an very long street name, but also a long town/state.  I will now be able to increase the font size for ingredients etc on my smaller labels with the extra space.


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## Moody Glenn (Jan 17, 2015)

Hello! I was raised not to be a conformist to everything the government bureaucrats say to do - especially when it comes to my family and home security. 

When I began my soapmaking business I asked the lawyer who helped form my business LLC about having my home business address on my soap labels and other materials including my website. I was very concerned about this based upon what the FDA stated. According to him home craftmaking businesses *should never* include their home address. Otherwise you have the potential to have weird people stopping by at all hours to sample products, sniff the soap, ask for samples, ask if you have kids, dogs, etc. I think you get the general idea. All it takes is one very determined person. Also, your home insurance may not allow you to showcase your home like this. The lawyer recommended to obtain a PO Box number for communication purposes. The same precaution goes with not adding your home telephone number. You should have a separate business phone. Your home is strictly your home. Allow customer business elsewhere.

So, what about this new ruling? I say forget about it. Oh it sounds nice to use these online directories BUT that personal information is still right there for people to EASILY find. NO, I would want it to be difficult to find this info. Although I sell soap as soap I still have contact information. I have a PO Box number (but the post office has my home address listed in their records and it is not available to the public). I have a business cell phone, I have an email account, on my website I have a form page so people can contact me. All these various methods for someone to contact me. 

I had asked my lawyer about the (now older) FDA rules and he said - don't worry about it. If a FDA representative presses about why you don't have that "necessary" home address info listed just ask the FDA person where he or she lives and home address, their home phone number and all other personal information. YOU can also play their game. Have to go to court about it? Just ask the judge and jury the same questions. The case would be dismissed in a minute. This is what my lawyer told me and he belongs with a top-notch law firm. 

PLEASE, don't lose sleep over this. Make your products as safe as possible and have other communication methods available so people can contact you. The big companies never post their employees or owners personal information do they? So ask yourself - why do I really have to? 

Am I wrong about this?  Maybe I am but I am not going to change my mind. I am doing it for the safety of my family and home. And I haven't lost any sleep over it. I am off the soapbox now.


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## mx5inpenn (Jan 17, 2015)

I own my own business and my labels for baked and canned goods are inspected by my state.  I don't want my address listed, but unfortunately I will lose my license if I don't list it.  I tried the po box, but couldn't continue since I can't lose my license.


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## Jstar (Jan 17, 2015)

Mx6, have you checked your *cottage laws* in your area? I can only speak for Texas, and while I would have to put my address, Im not held under the same FDA regs and they dont have authority to inspect anything..only thing they can do is keep a record of any complaints filed against me.

As for soap, as long as I label it as 'soap' I don't have to put my address...just the weight {not even ingredients, altho I do}

ETA: Here is a link that may help you..not an exhaustive list but you can find links from here to the food production areas in your state maybe..

http://www.mariegale.com/soap-and-cosmetic-labeling/labeling-state.html


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm sorry, moody glen, but that is a little bit extreme. 

Asking the FDA chap for his address doesn't compare to you putting yours on a label. You are selling something that could do damage to someone. In fact, even if your soap is generally fine, there could be an issue with one particular batch. Having the ability to actually contact someone is jolly important. 

While email, mobiles and so on are fine and dandy, there is a reason why companies have registered addresses - so there is a sure fire way to contact them when all else fails. If you are called to court, I'm pretty certain that a court official can't do that over the phone or email. 

When you start selling you stuff to the public, you stop being 'you, private person' and start being a company. Just because you choose to live in the same place as your company location does not mean that you shouldn't abide by the laws. Your feelings on federal government should have nothing to do with how you stand legally as a company. 

Of course, some states (eg Texas) give protection in the form of cottage laws. Others won't let you make certain products at home (I'm thinking Florida here) - but if your state doesn't, you should abide by the law or, if you don't like the law, get another location to make your soaps in. 

"But that'll cost more!" Well, too bad. Your customers deserve the ability to have a sure fire way to get hold of you in case they need to. Don't forget that some people might well ignore an email or phone calls from a customer seeking damages - so the solution is a physical location.

It sounds like the PO box offer from the FDA is a great compromise. It shows they are taking the soapers concerns on board but still protecting your customers.


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## mx5inpenn (Jan 18, 2015)

Jstar said:


> Mx6, have you checked your *cottage laws* in your area? I can only speak for Texas, and while I would have to put my address, Im not held under the same FDA regs and they dont have authority to inspect anything..only thing they can do is keep a record of any complaints filed against me.



TX, CA, NV and a few others have wonderful cottage laws. I'm in PA and we do not. In fact, myself and a number of other vendors at our local farmers market have spent the last 3 years fighting with our local and state authorities about it and TX cottage laws were what we based our requests for change on. Our market has been in business for 40 years and I think this year will probably be the last. The regs were made more stringent 3 years ago and we have dropped from 25-30 vendors to 10 or less.


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## Earthen_Step (Jan 18, 2015)

Taken from: http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/Labeling/Regulations/ucm126444.htm#clgi

"Name and Place of Business
Corporate name
Manufactured for...
Distributed by...
Address
Principal place of business

21 CFR 701.12

The name and business address appearing on the label may be those of the manufacturer, packer or distributor.

*If the name and address is not that of the manufacturer, the name must be preceded by phrases such as "Manufactured for ...", "Distributed by ...", or other appropriate wording.*

The name of the firm must be the corporate name, and the address may be that of the principal place of business. Stating also the name of a corporation's particular division is optional.

The business address must include the street address, name of the city and state, and the ZIP code. The street address may be omitted if the firm is listed in a current city or telephone directory.

The Tariff Act of 1930 requires that imported products state on the label the English Name of the country of origin."

end quote

*--------*

I refuse to have my home address on my products.  But I do not want to be harassed by feds so I complied.  The way I go about it is packaging my soap at my father in laws business.  I have:  Packaged at "business name" followed by the address.  I think this is a fair solution at this point, I would rather the laws be changed to allow PO box or dropped all together.  I think as a customer I trust an item more with an address on the back, so I'd probably keep an address of sorts on the back even so.  Knowing where something comes from gives a light comfort and an initial judgement of quality.

*Someday I hope to have a place of business separate from my home.  Then I'd love to have my address on, so people can come see how things are done and buy products if desired.


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## new12soap (Jan 18, 2015)

Moody Glen, just so you know, your lawyer could be subject to disciplinary action for advising you to break the law.

JStar, that is incorrect. Federal law supercedes state law, states can be more stringent but not less so. You are correct that as long as you are just making and selling soap, that does not fall under FDA regs, but it DOES fall under the Consumer Protection Act and is subject to Fair Labeling, and that also requires you to list the physical address or be listed in a directory.

Look, folks, comply with the law or choose to take the risk and don't comply. I just think it is important to anyone that reads this thread to understand the law so they can make an informed decision for themselves, and the fact is that if you are selling soaps or cosmetics at all you must list the address of your place of manufacture or primary place of business on the label or in a directory. Period.

eta: anywhere within the US, that is!


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## Moody Glenn (Jan 18, 2015)

new12soap said:


> Moody Glen, just so you know, your lawyer could be subject to disciplinary action for advising you to break the law.
> 
> JStar, that is incorrect. Federal law supercedes state law, states can be more stringent but not less so. You are correct that as long as you are just making and selling soap, that does not fall under FDA regs, but it DOES fall under the Consumer Protection Act and is subject to Fair Labeling, and that also requires you to list the physical address or be listed in a directory.
> 
> ...



Hello new12soap!  Thank you for your comment and information - and I do mean this.   My opinion and views of this particular post falls under Henry David Thoreau's attitude of civil disobedience. I will have to contact the lawyer to get his new assessment of the current FDA regulations. He was only looking after my concerns about home safety. If I definitely have to comply with this "law" - then I will shut my home business down and end it. I am not paranoid but it's not worth the potential troubles - legal or safety wise. I totally understand protecting the consumer - since I am one - but I also value protecting my family and home from certain types of consumers a whole lot more.


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## new12soap (Jan 18, 2015)

Glen, I completely understand your position, and I am not disagreeing with you in principle. The whole point of the petition to the FDA was because so many homecrafters feel that this regulation puts them at risk.

My concern was someone else coming along later and saying, "well, I read on an internet forum that someone's lawyer said you don't have to..."

It is surprising to me how many people are actually selling product and either don't know about the regs or sincerely believe that this does not apply to them. Again, I don't work for the FDA or the Consumer Protection Agency, I am not the label police. If you or anyone else who knows the law and is aware of the potential penalties chooses not to comply, that is absolutely your decision. I just like to make sure the information is accurate!


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## Moody Glenn (Jan 18, 2015)

New12soap - Thank you for the clarification. Well stated  and I understand.


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## Cindy2428 (Jan 18, 2015)

Glen in my heart and my unwillingness to be a "sheep" I completely agree with you. But that being said, if I was to sell I would follow the law. Earthen Step what a wonderful idea! I have some of my supplies shipped to my husband's business anyway, so potentially I could use that. I have been struggling with this since the beginning and this item remains #2 on my Con List for starting a business. (#1 Con is going back to 12-14 hr work days to get a one-woman show up and running again).


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## Moody Glenn (Jan 18, 2015)

Cindy2428 said:


> Glen in my heart and my unwillingness to be a "sheep" I completely agree with you. But that being said, if I was to sell I would follow the law. Earthen Step what a wonderful idea! I have some of my supplies shipped to my husband's business anyway, so potentially I could use that. I have been struggling with this since the beginning and this item remains #2 on my Con List for starting a business. (#1 Con is going back to 12-14 hr work days to get a one-woman show up and running again).



Hi Cindy! Thanks for your support and advice. I get so worked-up about many issues. My heart always speaks louder than my brain most of the time. (Actually, my stomach has the loudest voice but that's a totally different thing). Most likely I will "bite the bullet" and sign-up for one of those websites just to satisfy "the Fed". I love what I do and I am old enough to realize that compromises have to be made - even if I am so darn frustrated over an issue.

Hey, life is too short. Go ahead and become the best 'one-woman-show' out there! :clap:


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## Jstar (Jan 18, 2015)

new12soap said:


> JStar, that is incorrect. Federal law supercedes state law, states can be more stringent but not less so. You are correct that as long as you are just making and selling soap, that does not fall under FDA regs, but it DOES fall under the Consumer Protection Act and is subject to Fair Labeling, and that also requires you to list the physical address or be listed in a directory.
> 
> , and the fact is that if you are selling soaps or cosmetics at all you must list the address of your place of manufacture or primary place of business on the label or in a directory. Period.
> 
> eta: anywhere within the US, that is!



Im sorry, but I think you are mixing cosmetics with soap...Here is the law, and I have highlighted areas with >*< and >italics< etc



===============

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 21, Volume 7]
[Revised as of April 1, 2014]
[CITE: 21CFR701.12]



TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS
CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
SUBCHAPTER G--COSMETICS

PART 701 -- COSMETIC LABELING

Subpart B--Package Form
Sec. 701.12 *Name and place of business of manufacturer, packer, or distributor.*

(a) ***The label of a cosmetic*** in package form shall specify conspicuously the name and place of business of the manufacturer, packer, or distributor.

(b) The requirement for declaration of the name of the manufacturer, packer, or distributor shall be deemed to be satisfied in the case of a corporation only by the actual corporate name, which may be preceded or followed by the name of the particular division of the corporation. Abbreviations for "Company," "Incorporated," etc., may be used and "The" may be omitted. In the case of an individual, partnership, or association, the name under which the business is conducted shall be used.

(c) Where the *cosmetic* is not manufactured by the person whose name appears on the label, the name shall be qualified by a phrase that reveals the connection such person has with such cosmetic; such as, "Manufactured for _______", "Distributed by ________", or any other wording that expresses the facts.

(d) *The statement of the place of business shall include the street address, city, State, and ZIP Code; however, the street address may be omitted if it is shown in a current city directory or telephone directory.* The requirement for inclusion of the ZIP Code shall apply only to consumer commodity labels developed or revised after the effective date of this section. In the case of nonconsumer packages, the ZIP Code shall appear either on the label or the labeling (including the invoice).

(e) If a person manufactures, packs, or distributes a *cosmetic* at a place other than his principal place of business, the label may state the principal place of business in lieu of the actual place where such cosmetic was manufactured or packed or is to be distributed, unless such statement would be misleading.
- 
==

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=701.20

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 21, Volume 7]
[Revised as of April 1, 2014]
[CITE: 21CFR701.20]


TITLE 21--FOOD AND DRUGS
CHAPTER I--FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
SUBCHAPTER G--COSMETICS

PART 701 -- COSMETIC LABELING

Subpart C--Labeling of Specific Ingredients
Sec. 701.20 Detergent substances, ***other than soap,*** intended for use in cleansing the body.

(a)*** In its definition of the term cosmetic, the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act specifically excludes soap. The term soap is nowhere defined in the act.*** In administering the act, the Food and Drug Administration interprets the term "soap" to apply only to articles that meet the following conditions:

(1) The bulk of the nonvolatile matter in the product consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and the detergent properties of the article are due to the alkali-fatty acid compounds; and

(2) The product is labeled, sold, and represented only as soap.

***(b) Products intended for cleansing the human body and which are not "soap" as set out in paragraph (a) of this section are "cosmetics," and accordingly they are subject to the requirements of the act and the regulations thereunder.** *_[this I think is talking about shampoo's, body wash etc_*]* For example, such a product in bar form is subject to the requirement, among others, that it shall bear a label containing an accurate statement of the weight of the bar in avoirdupois pounds and ounces, this statement to be prominently and conspicuously displayed so as to be likely to be read under the customary conditions of purchase and use. 

To me, this is pretty clear of the differences of cosmetics and soap...however that being said, I always list my ingredients for my customers, and as far as address, that I do include on home made goods {cottage law is for anything baked or cooked, canned at home and sold that does not require temperature control to prevent spoilage}


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## Jstar (Jan 18, 2015)

Also, this is from TxDHHS, which is in cahoots with the FDA so Im pretty sure I can safely follow these rules for home made goods.

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/foodestablishments/cfpo/

_During the 83rd Legislature, Regular Session 2013, the Texas  Legislature enacted House Bill 970 that amends the Health and Safety  Code (HSC), Chapter 437, by amending provisions for cottage food  production operations. This law is effective September 1, 2013. 
A  cottage food production operation is exempt from the requirements of a  food service establishment and does not have to comply with the Texas  Food Establishment Rules. Health departments do not have regulatory  authority to conduct inspections of a cottage food production operation.  However, the Department or local health authority has authority to act  to prevent an immediate and serious threat to human life or health  through emergency order, recall orders and delegation of powers or  duties. Health departments are required to maintain records of all  complaints against a cottage food production operation. 
A cottage  food production operation is defined as an individual, operating out of  the individual’s home, who: _


_Produces a baked good, candy, coated and uncoated nuts,  unroasted nut butters, fruit butters, a canned jam or jelly, a fruit  pie, dehydrated fruit or vegetables, including dried beans, popcorn and  popcorn snacks, cereal, including granola, dry mix, vinegar, pickles,  mustard, roasted coffee or dry tea, or a dried herb or dried herb mix. _
_Has an annual gross income of $50,000 or less from the sale of  the described foods; and_
_Sells the foods produced directly to consumers at the  individual’s home, a farmers’ market, a farm stand, or a municipal,  county, or nonprofit fair, festival or event._
_Delivers products to the consumer at the point of sale or  another location designated by the consumer._
 _An individual who operates a cottage food production operation  must successfully complete a basic food safety education or training  program for food handlers accredited under Health and Safety Code,  Chapter 438(D) by January 1, 2014. _
_A cottage food production may not sell to customers potentially  hazardous foods. A potentially hazardous food (PHF) is a food that  requires time and temperature control for safety (TCS) to limit pathogen  growth or toxin production. In other words, a food must be held under  proper temperature controls, such as refrigeration to prevent the growth  of bacteria that may cause human illness. A PHF/TCS is a food that:  contains protein, moisture (water activity greater than 0.85), and is  neutral to slightly acidic (pH between 4.6 -7.5). _
_Foods sold by a cottage food production operation must be  packaged and labeled. The food must be packaged in a manner that  prevents product contamination, except for foods that are too large and  or bulky for conventional packaging. The labeling information for foods  that are not packaged must be provided to the consumer on an invoice or  receipt. The label must include:_


_The name and address of the cottage food production operation; _
_The common or usual name of the product, if a food is made with a  major food allergen, such as eggs, nuts, soy, peanuts, milk or wheat  that ingredient must be listed on the label; and_
_A statement: “This food is made in a home kitchen and is not  inspected by the Department of State Health Services or a local health  department."_
_The labels must be legible. _
 _Food produced by a cottage food production operation may not be  sold via the Internet, by mail order or at wholesale. 
The Department  of State Health Services is in the process of amending the rule,  Section 229.661, concerning cottage food production operations._


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## Earthen_Step (Jan 18, 2015)

Right Jstar, that's how I understand it (soap and cosmetic are different).  Soap has no requirements unless you use cosmetic wording turning your soap into a cosmetic.  I use words such as "exfoliate" and "conditioning" and "moisturizing" which turns my product into a cosmetic.  If you don't do this then you aren't required to label your address under cosmetic label laws.  If you are selling it as soap only, you can omit any portion you desire.  You can even sell it with no packaging at all, or wrap it in blank tissue paper.  When you add a cosmetic word or phrase you need to comply with cosmetic laws.  

Pretty silly stuff IMO


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## Jstar (Jan 18, 2015)

Exactly


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## Jstar (Jan 18, 2015)

Not to take this too far off the track, but in addition to the PO boxes being allowed, Id like to see the cottage laws to be able to extend to online...we're making progress tho because before we could only sell at our homes.


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## girlishcharm2004 (Jan 18, 2015)

Moody Glenn said:


> ...you have the potential to have weird people stopping by at all hours to sample products, sniff the soap, ask for samples, ask if you have kids, dogs, etc. I think you get the general idea. All it takes is one very determined person...



The first thought that went through my mind was a meth addict seeking ingredients (lye).  I've had this happen before -- someone break into my home for drug money, ingredients, etc.  It is _*very *_violating.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone. 

http://youtu.be/iv4L2wkisVI


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## girlishcharm2004 (Jan 18, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> "But that'll cost more!" Well, too bad. Your customers deserve the ability to have a sure fire way to get hold of you in case they need to. Don't forget that some people might well ignore an email or phone calls from a customer seeking damages - so the solution is a physical location.
> 
> It sounds like the PO box offer from the FDA is a great compromise. It shows they are taking the soapers concerns on board but still protecting your customers.



The post office is acting as the medium with a P.O. Box.  The government can still get a hold of you even if your customers don't know where you live.  That's what we call "certified mail" (proof you received the message) and/or a "subpoena" (a policeman serving you to appear in court).  The customer has no reason to know where you live.

The FDA isn't allowing the P.O. Box.  I'm not sure where you got that information from.  They are not taking any concerns.  What they are saying is that if someone can search Google for "The Efficacious Gentleman's Soaps" and find your home address in, say, YellowPages.com, then you can omit your address from your packaging.  Not really a compromise at all.


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## new12soap (Jan 18, 2015)

Jstar, yes there is a difference between just plain soap and anything that qualifies as a cosmetic. True, soap is exempt from the regulations set forth by the *FDA*.

*Soap* does however fall under the Consumer Protection Agency and the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...rgn=div5&view=text&node=16:1.0.1.5.62&idno=16

Soap must be labeled correctly, not as a cosmetic (unless, of course it IS a cosmetic) but as a consumer commodity, and that includes using the physical address or being listed in a directory, exactly like the FDA requirements.

From the regs: _
§500.5   Name and place of business of manufacturer, packer or distributor.

(a) The label of a consumer commodity shall specify conspicuously the name and place of business of the manufacturer, packer, or distributor. Where the consumer commodity is not manufactured by the person whose name appears on the label, the name shall be qualified by a phrase that reveals the connection such person has with such commodity; such as “Manufactured for ___,” “Distributed by ___,” or any other wording that expresses the facts.

(b) The requirement for declaration of the manufacturer, packer, or distributor shall in the case of a corporation be deemed to be satisfied only by the actual corporate name, which may be preceded or followed by the name of the particular division of the corporation. In the case of an individual, partnership, or association, the name under which the business is conducted shall be used.

*(c) The statement of the place of business shall include the street address, city, State, and Zip Code; however, the street address may be omitted if it is shown in a current city directory or telephone directory.*

(d) If a person manufactures, packs, or distributes a consumer commodity at a place other than his principal place of business, the label may state the principal place of business in lieu of the actual place where such consumer commodity was manufactured or packed or is to be distributed, unless such statement would be misleading.

(e) Standard abbreviations may be used in complying with the requirements of this section.
_

I have not yet seen any clear indication of whether the Consumer Protection Agency has changed their terms to allow for listing in an online directory as the FDA has or not.


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## new12soap (Jan 18, 2015)

Earthen_Step said:


> Right Jstar, that's how I understand it (soap and cosmetic are different).  Soap has no requirements unless you use cosmetic wording turning your soap into a cosmetic.  I use words such as "exfoliate" and "conditioning" and "moisturizing" which turns my product into a cosmetic.  If you don't do this then you aren't required to label your address under cosmetic label laws.  If you are selling it as soap only, you can omit any portion you desire.  You can even sell it with no packaging at all, or wrap it in blank tissue paper.  When you add a cosmetic word or phrase you need to comply with cosmetic laws.
> 
> Pretty silly stuff IMO



Earthen Step, that is totally incorrect. There are very clear regulations regarding the labeling of soap, it just doesn't fall under the FDA unless it is also a cosmetic or a drug. Please see the link in my previous post.


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## Jstar (Jan 18, 2015)

What do you make of this section?
=============
(c) The term _consumer commodity_  or _commodity_ means any  article, product, or commodity of any kind or class which is customarily  produced or distributed for sale through retail sales agencies or  instrumentalities for consumption by individuals, or use by individuals  for purposes of personal care or in the performance of services  ordinarily rendered within the household, and which usually is consumed  or expended in the course of such consumption or use. *For purposes of  the regulations in this part the term consumer  commodity does not include any food, drug, device or cosmetic as  defined by section 201 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21  U.S.C. 321);* any meat or meat product, poultry or poultry product, or  tobacco or tobacco product; any commodity subject to packaging or  labeling requirements imposed by the Administrator of the Environmental  Protection Agency pursuant to the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and  Rodenticide Act (7 U.S.C. 136 _et seq._);  any commodity subject to the provisions of the eighth paragraph under  the heading “Bureau of Animal Industry” of the Virus-Serum-Toxin Act (21  U.S.C. 151-157); any beverage subject to or complying with packaging or  labeling requirements imposed under the Federal Alcohol Administration  Act (27 U.S.C. 201 _et seq._);  any commodity subject to the provisions of the Federal Seed Act (7  U.S.C. 1551-1610).


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 19, 2015)

I read that as "if it is cosmetic (lotion etc, shaving soap or soap where you make cosmetic claims) then you need to use the FDA system. Otherwise, use ours"

My mistake on the PO box thing - I did mean the online listing. 

Let's not forget, your home address is available to people who might well be weirdos. All of your suppliers who deliver to your house - do you know all of their employees aren't the sorts of people you are looking to avoid? Not forgetting - your house is physically there for any passerby to just walk up to.......


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## Earthen_Step (Jan 19, 2015)

new12soap said:


> Earthen Step, that is totally incorrect. There are very clear regulations regarding the labeling of soap, it just doesn't fall under the FDA unless it is also a cosmetic or a drug. Please see the link in my previous post.



Thanks for the clarification.  



new12soap said:


> (a) The label of a consumer commodity shall specify conspicuously the name and place of business of the manufacturer, packer, or distributor. Where the consumer commodity is not manufactured by the person whose name appears on the label, the name shall be qualified by a phrase that reveals the connection such person has with such commodity; such as “Manufactured for ___,” “Distributed by ___,” or any other wording that expresses the facts.



I still think this is our best option.  Go pack your soap up at a place of business you trust that will let you do so.


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## new12soap (Jan 19, 2015)

JStar, Craig is correct. Anything that is a food, drug, device, or cosmetic is covered by the FDA. Anything else (soap!)* is covered by the CPA.

Essentially the only difference in labeling requirements for soaps and cosmetics is the ingredients. For just soap you are not required to list the ingredients (however, if you do list any ingredients, you must list all ingredients and do so correctly), for cosmetics you are. That's it. Soap must still be labeled with what it is, how much of it there is (by weight), the name of the manufacturer, and where it was made.

Again, all I am doing is pointing out what the regulations are and where to find them. What you do with the info is up to you, I just want everyone to have the correct information on which to base their decision.

*everything else for purposes of our discussion in a soap and bath and body forum, the other exceptions as noted in the section JStar quoted still apply!

**this applies only to the USA, this is an international forum and each country has their own rules and regulations.


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## Earthen_Step (Jan 21, 2015)

girlishcharm2004 said:


> The post office is acting as the medium with a P.O. Box.  The government can still get a hold of you even if your customers don't know where you live.  That's what we call "certified mail" (proof you received the message) and/or a "subpoena" (a policeman serving you to appear in court).  The customer has no reason to know where you live.



I agree completely girlishcharm -- I hope someday the laws are changed.  I also applaud those who knowingly omit the information as an act of civil disobedience.  I hope you are never harassed for it!  I also appreciate your efforts as well New12Soap, it's good to be informed on the laws in whatever business you are into.  Some good info has come up over the life of this thread, thanks for all your input.


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## new12soap (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks guys  Like I said, I don't disagree with a little civil disobedience now and then, either. And I really have to say that I appreciate the level of discourse around here, that everyone can ask questions, share information, and be so receptive to one another!


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