# Coronavirus



## LilyJo

With this now seemingly spreading swiftly around the world,  I wondered whether any of our members are directly or indirectly affected?


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## Kosmerta

Everyone will be affected. If not by the illness itself, by the economic depression this is causing. China manufactures products for the rest of the world. The month long production shut down has already put them in an economic depression and the rest of the global economy is following quickly.

Samsung has permanently closed their Chinese factories and moved to Vietnam. Car manufacturers are doing the same. China hasn't been buying oil over the last month which is negatively affecting the Asian oil market. 

Cases are popping up randomly world wide now, even in people who have had seemingly no contact with China or anyone who traveled to china. Although nothing is confirmed yet my theory is they were infected by contaminated goods ordered online before the production shut down. Viruses are different than bacteria. They can survive on a surface for a long time without a host, and easily survive the trip overseas. 

There is no need for people to start panicking, but every person world wide should be taking measures to protect themselves. The same measures you would take for the flu: wash your hands, dont share drinks or utensils, use your elbow to press elevator buttons, and try to avoid crowded places.


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## penelopejane

The Corona virus can’t survive more than a few hours on soft or hard surfaces.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog...y-questions-and-some-answers-2020022719004#q5


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## Vgurer

I was thinking that this one is weaker than SARS or MERS, but I read some where that there will be around million people globally infected and it is also expected that around 30K people will die because of that virus. The only good outcome is that people will have to wash their hands and face more frequently. I had a batch, borderline ph 10.5, I begin using this one as sterilizing wash for myself.


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## LilyJo

I think this is so much more than China now with so many cases in Europe and the middle east.


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## dixiedragon

Interestingly, measles is much more contagious than corona virus. It can survive up to 2 hrs in the air. Vs corona which requires close contact, such as an infected person sneezing or coughing on you.

https://khn.org/news/response-to-na...-case-draws-on-lessons-from-measles-outbreak/


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## jcandleattic

Our company has banned all business travel throughout the global offices with the exception of the US offices being able to travel to other US offices. 
For personal travel, it has to be disclosed where you are going, is 'highly discouraged' but if you do any personal travel, depending on where you go, upon your return to work, you will be quarantined for up to 14 days, and if you at all spike a fever, or show any cold or flu like symptoms you are immediately sent home to work from home for 14 days. 
Our Asian offices are on our rotating protocol where they either do split shifts, or shifts of half the office is working 1 week at the office, 1 week at home, and then rotates. The Asian offices (if working in the office) have a medical station where they will take people temps twice a day, and if there is a fever spike they get sent home. 

I have not personally been affected other than it's harder to connect with the global offices. But I'm supposed to be taking a cruise in exactly 2 weeks, and am not sure if that will get cancelled or not. I've been so looking forward to it, I will probably cry real tears if it gets cancelled. 

I am personally not worried. I have a pretty healthy immune system, and the regular flu has killed more people globally than this virus has or will. 
Also IMO, as others have stated, it comes down to hygiene and health. If both are good, you should be fine.


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## CatahoulaBubble

Unfortunately I have a really bad record with respiratory diseases. Thankfully I've been able to avoid getting my yearly pneumonia for the past 2 years by working from home but sadly I'm super susceptible to getting respiratory diseases which means that I may have to cancel my travel plans this year. I'm supposed to go on a family trip to Curacao but if the outbreak gets worse then I can't see that it will be safe for me to travel unless I'm wearing a self contained hazmat suit.


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## Megan

CatahoulaBubble said:


> Unfortunately I have a really bad record with respiratory diseases. Thankfully I've been able to avoid getting my yearly pneumonia for the past 2 years by working from home but sadly I'm super susceptible to getting respiratory diseases which means that I may have to cancel my travel plans this year. I'm supposed to go on a family trip to Curacao but if the outbreak gets worse then I can't see that it will be safe for me to travel unless I'm wearing a self contained hazmat suit.


I'm worried there as well. Every respiratory disease I've had in the past year I've gotten bronchitis. I had bronchitis 4 times last year...so pretty much the whole year (or at least it feels like it!). Luckily this year has been much better so far....but my two toddlers get croup every other cold as well...so pretty much if it becomes widespread in the US, I'll probably just take them out of daycare until the season ends.


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## penelopejane

CatahoulaBubble said:


> Unfortunately I have a really bad record with respiratory diseases. Thankfully I've been able to avoid getting my yearly pneumonia for the past 2 years by working from home but sadly I'm super susceptible to getting respiratory diseases which means that I may have to cancel my travel plans this year. I'm supposed to go on a family trip to Curacao but if the outbreak gets worse then I can't see that it will be safe for me to travel unless I'm wearing a self contained hazmat suit.


There are vaccinations for the flu and pneumonia.
They won’t protect against the corona virus but might be worthwhile for you.


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## shunt2011

I am prone to bronchitis and pneumonia. I get the pneumonia shot and have not had an episode in 2 years.  I believe there is a lot of scare tactics being given by news outlets causing much more stress to propel than necessary.   I work in a hospital and they aren’t nearly as concerned as the news media’s stressing. They are prepared when it happens. Most patients are treated with fluids to keep hydrated. Just remember to wash your hands frequently.


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## Obsidian

I'm a bit paranoid but I also have health related anxiety. I've been prep shopping for the last few days.
I should have enough food easily for a extended quarantine. Just gotta stock up on pet food and meds now.
At least I have plenty of soap, lol.


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## LilyJo

I'm concerned but ok about it but tbh I'm terrified for my elderly parents. 

It seems to be spreading so quickly now with increasing cases in the UK that you have to wonder how bad this can be. Not sure how much coverage its getting in the US or how many cases you have?


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## Dahila

well on coming Monday I leave for Europe for few weeks , can not cancel it,  With my COPD any cold or flue may end as pneumonia,  I keep my fingers crossed that no one will be sneezing in plane.   What we do ,  when the sickness come.  Whatever it is is (viruses) it stats in the nose,  then rinsing sinuses is pretty useful tool, hand washing, and hand washing I hope I will have a nice time in Poland (I had not visit for 15 years) and come back healthy


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## Noreen Moore

In a 2 week period at work (bedside hospital RN) I had a rule out Corona virus patient, a tuberculosis patient. Then a H1N1, and another influenza A and influenza B patient.  Hope I can survive my career! 
And once again the darn flu vaccine doesn't cover the B strain.  Very frustrating! Going to Disney and flying with my 2 oldest vectors,  oops I mean grandchildren! In a week. Very nervous about flying! So don't want to be sick nor have sick grandkids on vacation. Might have to wear nitrile gloves and face masks! I noticed Wholesale Supplies is out of face masks. And our hospital is out of N95 masks! Curious if someone will be checking temperatures at the airport?


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## Obsidian

LilyJo said:


> I'm concerned but ok about it but tbh I'm terrified for my elderly parents.
> 
> It seems to be spreading so quickly now with increasing cases in the UK that you have to wonder how bad this can be. Not sure how much coverage its getting in the US or how many cases you have?



We have around 60 cases right now. Most are from the infected cruise ship that were flown back to the US.
The other patients either got sick in China or were in direct contact with family who had visited.

We've been very lucky so far, it's given us time to prepare. We have been told that its coming, sooner or later.

I don't watch TV news but I try to keep up on the world cases online. Guess I should start watching the local news since we have 4 of the cruise patients in a hospital 50 miles from here.


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## dibbles

Noreen Moore said:


> In a 2 week period at work (bedside hospital RN) I had a rule out Corona virus patient, a tuberculosis patient. Then a H1N1, and another influenza A and influenza B patient.  Hope I can survive my career!
> And once again the darn flu vaccine doesn't cover the B strain.  Very frustrating! Going to Disney and flying with my 2 oldest vectors,  oops I mean grandchildren! In a week. Very nervous about flying! So don't want to be sick nor have sick grandkids on vacation. Might have to wear nitrile gloves and face masks! I noticed Wholesale Supplies is out of face masks. And our hospital is out of N95 masks! Curious if someone will be checking temperatures at the airport?


If you are flying out of MSP, they weren’t checking temperatures as of last Friday. We did leave from terminal 2 this time, but I’m sure the protocol is the same at both terminals. It didn’t appear there were any checks happening when we came home Tuesday either.


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## Arimara

There's one pending case in NYC and 6 negative cases among residents + one non resident. I'm more worried about the crazies and having a headache.


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## TheGecko

LilyJo said:


> With this now seemingly spreading swiftly around the world,  I wondered whether any of our members are directly or indirectly affected?



I work for a CPA firm, but fortunately I don’t have a lot of in-person client contact.  One of our clients was supposed to be getting married in Italy in April, but that’s not happening now.

We’ll just keep an eye on things and plan accordingly.


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## Kazin1

Dahila said:


> well on coming Monday I leave for Europe for few weeks , can not cancel it,  With my COPD any cold or flue may end as pneumonia,  I keep my fingers crossed that no one will be sneezing in plane.   What we do ,  when the sickness come.  Whatever it is is (viruses) it stats in the nose,  then rinsing sinuses is pretty useful tool, hand washing, and hand washing I hope I will have a nice time in Poland (I had not visit for 15 years) and come back healthy


Apparently face masks only help you if there are people coughing/sneezing so if you have a few masks when you go and there are people sneezing that's something. About three years ago I travelled home to Australia from UK and got a respiratory infection that went through every tube including my ears and eyes. Last time I flew home we took disinfectant wipes to wipe down table, belt and buckle, armrests, entertainment unit, the works. Even the suitcases when we got them off the carousel. Use a nasal spray which makes your nose run as infections get stuck in your nose and go from there. Plenty of hand sanitiser frequently. Needless to say, neither of us even got the sniffles.


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## Kcryss

Very scary! I'm glad now that I work from home. No contact with anyone but my headset and computer. 
Here is a real time interactive map with current cases: https://www.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


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## Kiti Williams

No cases here in Philly, but I am aware of good viral hygiene.  I have a really tough immune system, I don't get the flu shots because I don't get the flu.  I do have a tendency to get bronchitis, but it is from a pollen allergy.


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## Obsidian

First confirmed death in the US in Seattle.


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## LilyJo

Its certainly scary, it seems to be spreading everywhere.


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## Nona'sFarm

Well, the head of the U.S. CDC (Center for Disease Control) said that it will be showing up here and everyone should prepare. So today I stocked up on some non-perishable staples Also stocked up on soaping oils.  Got to do something if we are home bound.  Already have face masks, as I keep those handy for grass cutting (have grass allergies). I ordered some more, they are back ordered until April, so wonder if I'll get them at all.
Hopefully, I won't need any of this preparation, but as Grandma used to say, "Better safe, than sorry." 

Am a little concerned about the stock markets as most of my retirement savings is there. Oh well, just have to hope for the best and realize a lot of other people are in the same boat.

Wish everyone a safe and healthy existence through this potential crisis.


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## penelopejane

Nona'sFarm said:


> Well, the head of the U.S. CDC (Center for Disease Control) said that it will be showing up here and everyone should prepare. So today I stocked up on some non-perishable staples Also stocked up on soaping oils.  Got to do something if we are home bound.  Already have face masks, as I keep those handy for grass cutting (have grass allergies). I ordered some more, they are back ordered until April, so wonder if I'll get them at all.
> Hopefully, I won't need any of this preparation, but as Grandma used to say, "Better safe, than sorry."
> 
> Am a little concerned about the stock markets as most of my retirement savings is there. Oh well, just have to hope for the best and realize a lot of other people are in the same boat.
> 
> Wish everyone a safe and healthy existence through this potential crisis.


Don’t worry about the stock market. I trade for a living. No one knows if this is a correction or a crash (greater than 20% fall)  but no matter what happens it will be ok over time. Do not, whatever you do, take all your money out. Invariably it will be right at the bottom (when fear is greatest) when you take it out. Just breathe. This too shall pass.  Stress test your portfolio when it revives.


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## Nona'sFarm

penelopejane said:


> Don’t worry about the stock market. I trade for a living. No one knows if this is a correction or a crash (greater than 20% fall)  but no matter what happens it will be ok over time. Do not, whatever you do, take all your money out. Invariably it will be right at the bottom (when fear is greatest) when you take it out. Just breathe. This too shall pass.  Stress test your portfolio when it revives.


Thanks, good to have some words of reassurance from someone in the business!


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## bookreader451

Call me weird but I love history and specifically the impact disease has had on shaping the modern world.  The bubonic plague was instrumental in the move towards modernization.   WWI may have lasted much longer if it wasn't for the Spanish flu, Ebola has shown us nature fighting back against deforestation and habitat destruction  and mosquitos are the most deadly vector to the human race.   
Coronavirus is mild in most cases.  We are nowhere near a pandemic, but just one country closing production has illustrated the global dependency of our world today.  

And just for sh!ts and giggles I will leave you with this tidbit; the only time the US and USSR cooperated during the cold war was on smallpox eradication. They are also the two countries with stores that can be weaponized.


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## Kosmerta

South Korea has been picking up a lot of the importing slack while China's ports have been shut down. Live coronavirus was just found in a shipping container in a South Korean port. I got this information from a friend who trade stocks as his sole source of income. With the information of the virus in SK the ports will likely be shut down. For this reason he sold all of his holding in imports and closed his trading account until "after the storm." 

If you live in America start stocking up on daily items you may need over the coming months. Made-in- America items will of course still be available, but the American luxury of buying cheaper made-in-china products will slowly be trickling to a stop for awhile.


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## penelopejane

Kosmerta said:


> South Korea has been picking up a lot of the importing slack while China's ports have been shut down. Live coronavirus was just found in a shipping container in a South Korean port. I got this information from a friend who trade stocks as his sole source of income. With the information of the virus in SK the ports will likely be shut down. For this reason he sold all of his holding in imports and closed his trading account until "after the storm."e.


If you trade for a living you get out early and short sell or wait.  If you are a long term investor hold and don't sell at the bottom.


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## Mobjack Bay

I worry a bit about my parents and my sister who is a nurse.  My dad lives on the outskirts of Ft. Lauderdale, a major cruise ship port in the US,  and has been in and out of the hospital multiple times this past year or so with pneumonia. He doesn’t seem to fend off anything on his own anymore. We are already making plans at the university in case we have to close down at some point. I’m thankful that we don’t have undergrads on our campus, which is more of a research institute. I can’t imagine having to make readiness/contingency plans that involve 1000s of college students.  As for the stock market, I’ve weathered many a downturn over my career.  I’ve always been less of a speculator and more of a diversified, steady kind of investor, which is even more true as I get older.


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## bookreader451

Mobjack Bay said:


> I worry a bit about my parents and my sister who is a nurse.  My dad lives on the outskirts of Ft. Lauderdale, a major cruise ship port in the US,  and has been in and out of the hospital multiple times this past year or so with pneumonia.


I was thinking the same thing about my husband. He has COPD and already did a round of antibiotics and steroids this winter.


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## rdc1978

I work out at a gym where people were apparently raised by wolves and don't cover their coughs (I'm almost positive if I asked id hear a lot of "oh, but this just allergies!").  It's frustrating. 

There are also so many people in the world who either don't have enough sick time or save their sick days for the kids and therefore they show up to work when they are VERY CLEARLY SICK.

It makes me so relieved that I work from home most days of the week

/endrant


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## bookreader451

In the US millions don’t have sick time or health insurance.  They can’t afford to take time and can’t afford medical treatment if they do get sick.  This illness may literally bankrupt families and if they need hospitalization could actually leave them homeless.  I worry more about the impact disproportionately affecting lower wage workers. And yes, since they tend to be in the service industry with no sick days, our chance of catching it just went up.


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## Arimara

Kosmerta said:


> There is no need for people to start panicking, but every person world wide should be taking measures to protect themselves. The same measures you would take for the flu: wash your hands, dont share drinks or utensils, use your elbow to press elevator buttons, and *try to avoid crowded places.*


As long as I have doctor appointments, the bolded will never happen. I have to travel.



Kosmerta said:


> If you live in America start stocking up on daily items you may need over the coming months. Made-in- America items will of course still be available, but the American luxury of buying cheaper made-in-china products will slowly be trickling to a stop for awhile.



I heard a couple of crazy things. One was that this came about from people eating "exotic" meat, more specifically pangolin meat. I also heard the death toll in Yunnan Province is insane. So many people including the head of one hospital who identified the virus died. If this all could have been prevented, that thought makes me very upset. It doesn't help that on a more selfish level on my part, there are teas I have to wait to try, if I even can because of coronavirus. Tea calms my nerves better than coffee.


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## Caic Tarbh

I came back from a SE Asia cruise at the end of January.  Both my wife and I were sick.  Fever and all the other symptoms of the coronavirus.  Aspirin and Tylenol kept our fever down somewhat, so the immigration in Taipei when we flew there from Hong Kong passed us through because we weren't staying in Taiwan.  A lot of people on the ship were coughing and visibly "under the weather".  Same goes for the flight from Taipei back to the US.  No checks were performed when we landed in the US.  My wife and I self-quarantined for a month, just in case.  Our doctor said that we definitely had the flu, but without specialized tests, he could not verify that it was the coronavirus.  I suspect that there are a lot of people like us who were infected, but it did not develop into a serious case, so it never gets reported.


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## rdc1978

Caic Tarbh said:


> I came back from a SE Asia cruise at the end of January.  Both my wife and I were sick.  Fever and all the other symptoms of the coronavirus.  Aspirin and Tylenol kept our fever down somewhat, so the immigration in Taipei when we flew there from Hong Kong passed us through because we weren't staying in Taiwan.  A lot of people on the ship were coughing and visibly "under the weather".  Same goes for the flight from Taipei back to the US.  No checks were performed when we landed in the US.  My wife and I self-quarantined for a month, just in case.  Our doctor said that we definitely had the flu, but without specialized tests, he could not verify that it was the coronavirus.  I suspect that there are a lot of people like us who were infected, but it did not develop into a serious case, so it never gets reported.



How scary.  Good on you for self-quarantining, even if I can't spell it.


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## Caic Tarbh

rdc1978 said:


> How scary.  Good on you for self-quarantining, even if I can't spell it.



Luckily, our pantry and deep freeze were well stocked before we left on the month long trip through SE Asia (Taiwan, Singapore, Cambodia, Vietnam, Hong Kong).  The last three days of the cruise, I slept through most of it, only getting out of bed to get some water and take some aspirin or tylenol.  We had no idea about the coronavirus being an issue until we arrived in Hong Kong and saw the news.

I suspect that it is probably about the same as any other flu that I've had over the years, but it's been probably 40 years at least since I have had the flu and let's just say that at my age, it probably sucks a bit more than it did back then.  Then again, at my age, even getting out of bed in the morning sucks -- I would like to think that if I had known I was going to live this long, I would not have done all the stupid things that I did in my younger days (and my joints would be in better shape), but I suspect that I would have still done them.


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## MarnieSoapien

bookreader451 said:


> Call me weird but I love history and specifically the impact disease has had on shaping the modern world.  The bubonic plague was instrumental in the move towards modernization.   WWI may have lasted much longer if it wasn't for the Spanish flu, Ebola has shown us nature fighting back against deforestation and habitat destruction  and mosquitos are the most deadly vector to the human race.
> Coronavirus is mild in most cases.  We are nowhere near a pandemic, but just one country closing production has illustrated the global dependency of our world today.
> 
> And just for sh!ts and giggles I will leave you with this tidbit; the only time the US and USSR cooperated during the cold war was on smallpox eradication. They are also the two countries with stores that can be weaponized.


There's a great podcast that I listen to that has covered most of this! It's called This Podcast Will Kill You and it's by 2 women who are in medical school studying infectious diseases! 

I am a bit concerned as I will be travelling to France later this week. The news said there are currently 100 confirmed cases in France right now, luckily none of the cases are where I'll be traveling to. The hardest hit area is north of Paris and I'll be in Marseille, so fingers crossed that I don't have to quarantine myself when I get back!


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## bookreader451

Be safe


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## sirtim100

I had a bout of flu about three weeks ago, and after pretending that it didn't exist, I finally admitted defeat and went to the hospital, The first thing they gave me was a facemask and asked me if I had been in China recently. Then the doctor put me on antibiotics for the cough (I have COPD), paracetamol and lots of rest. The doctor didn't seem concerned about the issue, and the people in the waiting room saw me with the mask on and didn't stampede to the other end of the room, making the gesture of the evil eye at me and spraying themselves with industrial alcohol. They seemed more concerned for my wellbeing than anything.

Spain is wonderful because the people here take everything with a humungous pinch of salt. Centuries of barefaced robbery by their governments have made the Spanish very keen eyed and cynical about everything that happens on the media, and what they want are facts, facts, facts. They take nothing at face value, so all this concern about coronavirus leaves them a bit cold, they just make jokes about it

As for the social/economic ramifcations, there's a Chinese dollar store next door to me and they're not losing any business, in fact I make a point of going there and buying more. No masks on the streets, no people in orange biochemical warfare suits. And Spain's been in a major economic crisis since 2008, so life goes on...

The truth of the matter is that it's just another flu, perhaps a bit more savage than other strains, but a flu nonetheless. The lives it's taking are those that any flu takes; the elderly, people who are compromised with heart and pulmonary issues, the underfed, the poor.


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## SmockingRN

Hi, Noreen,  I was bedside and ER RN for many years. The Worst thing I ever caught at work was not a virus. It was mycoplasma, or walking pneumonia. I got it from a pt who coughed in my face while I was starting her IV. Terrible cough, just exhausting, and the illness would clear up and then return a week later. I was sick for 3 months. I never caught flu at work, thank goodness. Thank you for your work, I think nurses are like bedside soldiers and I hope you have continuing good health.


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## Caic Tarbh

Even before the coronavirus thing, many people in Asia wear the masks.  I don't think it is for disease, but more just because of the pollution that they believe that they are breathing in and that they think that the mask will filter it.  I seriously doubt that it makes a difference since the masks are not tight fitting enough to cause all the air that they breath to come through the mask and not around the edges of the mask.

From a disease standpoint, most of the masks that you see are to protect *others* from what *you* might have.  So that if *you* cough or sneeze, you don't spray germs all over everywhere.  Surgeons wear these masks to protect the *patient*, not themselves.


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## Noreen Moore

@dibbles 
Yes terminal 1 this Sat. Layover in Raleigh NC. Lots of airport! Have a purse pack of Clorox wipes. I presume there maybe hand sanitizer at the airport. And I have some as well. Keeping my fingers crossed the kids don't bring something from school to get us all sick!


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## Noreen Moore

Yup confirmed case in Ft Lauderdale. Great... FLA bound Saturday! Disney parks! Nice big germ pools.
Hopefully people will be too scared to get sick and the lines will short.


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## Arimara

Noreen Moore said:


> Yup confirmed case in Ft Lauderdale. Great... FLA bound Saturday! Disney parks! Nice big germ pools.
> Hopefully people will be too scared to get sick and the lines will short.



I'd try not to worry about it. Just wash your hands every so often and before meals avoid the idiots that cough uncovered when possible. You're only going to be in the area a few days.


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## Mobjack Bay

My university is telling administrators that we need to get ready now in anticipation of students returning from spring break in less than 2 weeks.  The focus is on preparing for community level transmission of the virus. The number of areas we need to consider and actions we need to take to help keep students, staff and faculty working and as healthy as we possibly can is not trivial.  Apparently there may be a cumulative loss of personnel time in the 20-40% range over the next 4-6 months and up to 15% *of the those who are infected *within the community might require hospitalization.  It’s especially sobering to think of that many people getting that sick.

Edited to clarify the hospitalization estimate


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## shunt2011

I’m heading to New York for a conference on Saturday. Huge conference for Emergency Medicine Programs across the country.  Hand sanitizer at the ready and lots of hand washing.


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## Arimara

shunt2011 said:


> I’m heading to New York for a conference on Saturday. Huge conference for Emergency Medicine Programs across the country.  Hand sanitizer at the ready and lots of hand washing.


If the city, mind the crazies, wash your hands often as possible, do not eat or drink on the subways/busses, and have a nice trip. If somewhere else in the state, enjoy the wine and have a nice trip.


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## TheGecko

I work at a mid-size CPA.  My boss brought in huge bottles of hand sanitizer and disinfectant wipes, and will be bringing in masks...for clients.  We’re also asking clients to not come to the office if possible, and scan and upload docs to our secure server.  That he is being so cautious since he is usually so pragmatic is cause for concern.    

I have to pick up a bunch of docs at a client’s tomorrow AM...I have 1.5 gal bags to put them in.  And I’m taking some of my soaping gloves in and will remove any staples and paper clips and microwave those puppies.  I’m also taking in two dozen bars of soap for our bathrooms and kitchen since there is no evidence that ‘anti-bacterial’ soap works any better than regular soap and that crap dries my hands out.

Hubby is heading to the store to morrow to pick up some essentials.  Not planning for the apocylpse, just in case anyone gets sick, so Kleenex, toilet paper, orange juice and soups.


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## BattleGnome

Soap2go.

I just use any old soap paste batch and regular (well labeled) lip balm tubes. Handy for when you know you’ll have water but can’t trust that soap will be available.


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## penelopejane

There is no toilet paper in supermarkets in Australia (seriously!).


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## bookreader451

I brought a bunch of soap ends into the office since everyone is washing hands more.  Great alternative to the soap in the dispenser and so far they have been using it. 

Seriously and unscrupulously I am torn.  If I had a mild case would I self isolate for two weeks and burn 80 hours of PTO?  I use PTO for stuff I want to do and work sick.  PTO is mental health, charter fishing with hubby and getting my garden in the week of Memorial Day.  

I know this makes me a horrible person but I only get 4 weeks a year and to burn half of it watching Netflix freaks me out more than getting coronavirus.


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## Relle

penelopejane said:


> There is no toilet paper in supermarkets in Australia (seriously!).
> View attachment 44317


We needed toilet paper as there was only 2 rolls left, dh got some and then the next day nothing left on the shelf ( do they all think they are going to get diarrhoea ). No hand sanitizer either. On the news a medical person said that sanitizer won't do anything unless it has antibacterial or  antimicrobal on the label. DH, was just in Aldi and the checkout operators are wearing gloves . He was at Bunnings and a man asked if they had a filter (mask) that was cheaper than $54 . Maybe I could sell my soaping ones out front .


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## LilyJo

bookreader451 said:


> I brought a bunch of soap ends into the office since everyone is washing hands more.  Great alternative to the soap in the dispenser and so far they have been using it.
> 
> Seriously and unscrupulously I am torn.  If I had a mild case would I self isolate for two weeks and burn 80 hours of PTO?  I use PTO for stuff I want to do and work sick.  PTO is mental health, charter fishing with hubby and getting my garden in the week of Memorial Day.
> 
> But what about all the people who could get your mild case and end up in ICU or dead?
> 
> I'm sorry but it's that attitude of working when sick that has given me multiple hospital admissions and nearly killed my parents.
> 
> If you are self isolating it's for a good reason don't be so selfish.
> 
> I know this makes me a horrible person but I only get 4 weeks a year and to burn half of it watching Netflix freaks me out more than getting coronavirus.


----------



## IwantItgreen

Such conflicting information.  Here's Dave Ramsey's take on the virus


----------



## Susie

We have proven cases of Co-Vid 19 here.  Not just on the base that is quarantined.  I, and my son, have compromised immune systems due to an abnormal protein in our blood.  I am not travelling.  My son is not travelling, but his husband is a flight attendant.  My husband is travelling for work also.  We're using good handwashing and lots of prayers.  I am buying hand sanitizer gel base and I already have the alcohol.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@IwantItgreen The US CDC website provides a situation report on M,W,F mornings. It’s a good place to find verified information.   They also provide guidance document for families, employers and schools. The resounding messages are the same as they are for the flu - wash your hands, cover your cough, and stay home when you’re sick. Limiting the spread will help to protect the most vulnerable.  

Up-to-date statistics on the outbreak are available here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
You can learn about the group that provides these statistics using the “about” link at the bottom of their home page.  They document the data sources further down on the statistics page.


----------



## jcandleattic

jcandleattic said:


> I am personally not worried. I have a pretty healthy immune system, and the regular flu has killed more people globally than this virus has *or will*.


I was wrong. as of today, this virus has surpassed that of the regular flu in amount of cases worldwide, and I think maybe even deaths, so please disregard this part of this post. 

However, I am still convinced that with a heightened awareness of good hygiene and a healthy immune system, people should be fine. It's the elderly and people with compromised immune systems that are most widely affected.


----------



## SmockingRN

Although it has been a very long time since the USA has faced a pandemic, we have all heard about the AIDS Crises, the Spanish Flu, the Black Death. We know contagious disease can turn our world upside down, even if we are not in the high risk groups.  I would feel better if our government was more farsighted and prepared, rather than flooding us with questionable reassurance.


----------



## Kcryss

The virus has now made its way to Colorado. Thought it would be a bit yet before that happened but guess I was wrong.


----------



## jcandleattic

Kcryss said:


> The virus has now made its way to Colorado. Thought it would be a bit yet before that happened but guess I was wrong.


Only 1 case in Snowmass, they caught it very quickly, was quarantined almost immediately. 
Honestly with our airport being an international airport I surprised it didn't get here faster.


----------



## Kcryss

jcandleattic said:


> Only 1 case in Snowmass, they caught it very quickly, was quarantined almost immediately.
> Honestly with our airport being an international airport I surprised it didn't get here faster.



There is a 2nd case reported today. A lady in Douglas county that just came back from a cruise.

Yeah, good point about DIA.


----------



## SeaSuds

I can't get loo roll anywhere!!


----------



## Arimara

We have 2 confirmed cases in NY from when I checked earlier. At least I think we do. I know for sure at least one and in NYC. If anyone is coming to the NYC area, be vigilant and aware of your surroundings. Coronavirus aside, the biggest threat is going to be crazies or scumbags. 

By the way, is this article credible, if any of you know?


----------



## jcandleattic

SeaSuds said:


> I can't get loo roll anywhere!!


Which makes no sense at all. This is a respiratory virus, NOT the flu. People panicking without taking the time to actually research it.


----------



## Arimara

jcandleattic said:


> Which makes no sense at all. This is a respiratory virus, NOT the flu. People panicking without taking the time to actually research it.


It does bring to question what kind of flu people think they are contending with (I know COVID-19 is not a flu). It might be smart (fun) to see if their is anymore TP in Target. I want a cultural comparison.


----------



## amd

SeaSuds said:


> I can't get loo roll anywhere!!


Is this also why I went to three different stores and couldn't find chocolate almond milk? 

My boss has been in Germany since the beginning of Chinese New Year, is finally getting to come back to China. Not sure yet if he will be quarantined for 2 weeks when he gets there. Both of our mfg facilities are 100% running this week, as well as the design center staff is back in the office as of Weds. My company has issued a "no customer visit" policy for Europe/China sales team, but no restrictions yet for US or other countries. For the Eu team, if travel is for personal reasons, they must provide proof of health before returning to work. And they continue to advise for common sense, good hygiene practices, and DO NOT PANIC.


----------



## lenarenee

jcandleattic said:


> Only 1 case in Snowmass, they caught it very quickly, was quarantined almost immediately.
> Honestly with our airport being an international airport I surprised it didn't get here faster.



It probably was. There's 2 strains, S and L, L being more severe. People with S may have never suspected they had Covid 19, therefore their case wasn't on the radar. 


jcandleattic said:


> Only 1 case in Snowmass, they caught it very quickly, was quarantined almost immediately.
> Honestly with our airport being an international airport I surprised it didn't get here faster.



There's a channel on YouTube,  Dr. John Campbell,  30 year clinical nurse and instructor who has videos done with enough medical science to feed my preferences for facts without hype. And he's easy to understand.


----------



## DKing

lenarenee said:


> There's a channel on YouTube,  Dr. John Campbell,  30 year clinical nurse and instructor who has videos done with enough medical science to feed my preferences for facts without hype. And he's easy to understand.


He is who I have been watching as well for information.  Actually listening to his daily update right now.


----------



## Obsidian

SeaSuds said:


> I can't get loo roll anywhere!!



Luckily its still here but is starting to sell more. Saw a lady with 5 huge packages, its all the store would sell to each customer. 

I have bought extra myself but only because I'm worried about it being sold out in a panic. I'm not hording it by any means.

Can't find hand sanitizer anywhere in the county. I bought a huge bottle a month ago but I'd like a bottle for my 90 yr old grandmother.


----------



## SmockingRN

jcandleattic said:


> Which makes no sense at all. This is a respiratory virus, NOT the flu. People panicking without taking the time to actually research it.


Maybe they are stockpiling TP in case they get quarantined? I better go get a few extra rolls! After reading your comment about coronavirus NOT being a flu, I started thinking what was the difference? Looked it up and while both are respiratory viruses, the corona virus  causes shortness of breath. That IS very different from flu. Last time I had flu I was so miserably sick with fever, head and body aches, cough and malaise. But NOT shortness of breath, which is a very scary symptom.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Arimara said:


> By the way, is this article credible, if any of you know?


That was my understanding, that the authorities think it transferred from pangolins.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Having a stock of tissues seems at least as important as having a stock of tp!  I’m making sure that I have the basics on hand in case we get sick and need to stay away from others.  We also don’t have any family in the area to shop for us.


----------



## SeaSuds

Well in the absence of loo roll I have bought my family a squirty bottle each which they can fill with pleasantly warm water and squirt at the necessary places!!  You never know, we might never feel the need for paper again


----------



## SmockingRN

SeaSuds said:


> Well in the absence of loo roll I have bought my family a squirty bottle each which they can fill with pleasantly warm water
> What a great idea, like a bidet without any expensive plumbing redo!
> I read about people who avoid TP, to save trees. Instead they use reusable, washable rags...That would make me hate doing the laundry, for sure.


----------



## Obsidian

Arimara said:


> By the way, is this article credible, if any of you know?



They have now contributed it to bats, not pangolins.



amd said:


> Is this also why I went to three different stores and couldn't find chocolate almond milk?



Not chocolate and not almond but I found shelf stable dairy milk at the dollar tree yesterday.
Good for a year at room temp or until opened. Its probably gross but I bought a couple for my apocalypse stock.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Obsidian said:


> They have now contributed it to bats, not pangolins.


 @Arimara
Based on what I read, they’re looking at pangolins as possible intermediary hosts between bats and humans.  I am aware that intermediate hosts sometimes play a role in the transmission of diseases to marine animals and that it can be quite difficult to trace these pathways of infection because of the large number of species that might act as intermediate hosts.


----------



## Arimara

@Obsidian and @Mobjack Bay There's too many things going on for confuddled info to be going around. Bats do make more sense, though. Thanks.


----------



## GML

Never mind....



SeaSuds said:


> Well in the absence of loo roll I have bought my family a squirty bottle each which they can fill with pleasantly warm water and squirt at the necessary places!!  You never know, we might never feel the need for paper again



You can buy the attachment for your toilet (no special plumbing needed).


----------



## bookreader451

My daughter drove up from Brooklyn today to see us because, as she put it,  we are older and she wanted to see us if anything happened and she brought bagels.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

SeaSuds said:


> Well in the absence of loo roll I have bought my family a squirty bottle each which they can fill with pleasantly warm water and squirt at the necessary places!!  You never know, we might never feel the need for paper again


How very creative!


----------



## SmockingRN

GML said:


> You can buy the attachment for your toilet (no special plumbing needed).


Now you have me thinking! I was scared of a cold water spray. Checked out a website selling bidet toilet seats and they all need electricity. If no electric outlet nearby, some people use cleverly routed extension cords or have an electrician install an outlet just for the bidet seat. So... Thank You! I am going to buy a bidet seat.


----------



## GML

I have 2, 1 that you attach under the toilet seat and the 2nd is part of the toilet seat. And the water shoots out so fast that you don't even notice that it's cold, but it does wake you up in the morning.


----------



## penelopejane

Relle said:


> We needed toilet paper as there was only 2 rolls left, dh got some and then the next day nothing left on the shelf ( do they all think they are going to get diarrhoea ). No hand sanitizer either. On the news a medical person said that sanitizer won't do anything unless it has antibacterial or  antimicrobal on the label. DH, was just in Aldi and the checkout operators are wearing gloves . He was at Bunnings and a man asked if they had a filter (mask) that was cheaper than $54 . Maybe I could sell my soaping ones out front .


There are two schools of thought a) people are panic buying because they think it comes from China and we won’t get supplies (we have several manufacturers in Australia) b) people think they will be quarantined (if you are the Red Cross will supply the essentials in Australia).

Apparently you are more likely to get supplies first thing in the morning when supermarkets open.

It’s not just toilet paper Australians are panic buying - hand sanitiser, bacterial wipes, rice, pasta, baked beans and UHT milk are all in short supply.

Don’t bother with the face masks - keep your hands away from your face, wash your hands regularly, don’t touch public balustrades, shopping carts, door handles etc etc without washing your hands or using bacterial wipes.


----------



## Saffron

SeaSuds said:


> I can't get loo roll anywhere!!



Hi, have you tried Amazon?  Went shopping yesterday and Waitrose, Morrisons, Home Bargains, Aldi  all still had plenty of loo rolls here in Warwicks/Worcs.
If you still can't find any, you can use kitchen rolls (tear each sheet into two),   face/ hand tissues (own brands are fine), baby wipes (I find Huggies are best as they don't have any plastic fibres in them) but dont't flush the baby wipes down the loo.
Good luck  

P.S. If you can't get hold of any of the above, can always do what they did during the war.... cut up newspaper


----------



## sirtim100

4 cases confirmed in Galicia, Spain, one in the general hospital here in Coruña. No deaths as yet. 

In Spain overall, 500 confirmed cases, 10 deaths, makes for a morbidity rate of 2%. The media are insisting on the fact that the mortalities are people with prior heart/pulmonary/age issues, but some members of the public take no notice and get all fired up about the end of the world, especially on the social media. The rest of Spain takes it with wonderful aplomb, last night I had dinner in Ourense with some friends and we ended up chanting "Coronavirus, coronavirus" to the strains of a famous soccer chant. The Spanish memes are very funny and ironic and do a lot to take the edge off things. At the same time, there are no face masks to be found anywhere for love or money. Still plenty of toilet paper, though. 

Perhaps all this is a plot by bidet manufacturers to snatch customers desperate to keep their bums clean. I went without toilet paper for almost a year in Turkey (they use soap and water and the left hand, always the left hand), and my nethers never felt so immaculate.

Those soapers of a venerable age with heart and lung issues, take care, and don't run unnecessary risks. As for me and my pet pangolin, we're going to the park to sneeze and cough on everyone 

PS: what makes me very sad is how things are going in Italy. The country that gave us law, politics, language, Cicero, Tacitus, etc., always ends up getting hammered.


----------



## penelopejane

Saffron said:


> P.S. If you can't get hold of any of the above, can always do what they did during the war.... cut up newspaper



On of the newspapers in Sydney, Australia printed two full pages with dotted lines so people could use it as toilet paper.  So funny.


----------



## Relle

penelopejane said:


> On of the newspapers in Sydney, Australia printed two full pages with dotted lines so people could use it as toilet paper.  So funny.


The Northern Territory news did something similar with 8 pages of loo paper inside.


----------



## Arimara

I was listening to the governor and he said that NY state will be combatting price gouging of hand sanitizers by producing it's own. It has 75% alcohol and a floral scent, as he stated, the the first to get access to it will be those in New Rochelle, NY. I must say, I am very interested in getting a gallon but a small pump will do too.

We're in a state of emergency in NY, by the way. 100 people have been affected but most cases were a little ways upstate.

Edit- 20 people have tested positive for coronavirus in NYC. These are mostly residents with one or two city workers. The mayor stated the city will be helping businesses affected by this virus and that schools will be receiving additional nurses. I did not catch everything said.


----------



## LilyJo

It pretty much seems to be everywhere now and I guess the only questions are how bad will it get and will I/ my loved ones get it?

Scary that Italy is effectively shut from now,suspect it wont be the last country to have to do so.


----------



## Relle

Australia way back when ……… we will be remembering the toilet paper wars of 2020 .


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Danish government officially shut down schools and universities as of last night. My 2 kiddos have been out most of the week with... you guessed it, cough and a fever. I contacted their doctor who said unless they have been in direct contact with a confirmed coronavirus patient, they were to stay at home, no doctor visit needed. My hubby works for the National Museum and they will be closing for 2 weeks starting tomorrow and told everyone to work from home. The school my oldest goes to will be closed as of Monday. No official word from the daycare my youngest goes to. 

Last week, before I left to go to France, I told my hubby about this thread and people not being able to find TP. When he came home from the store he had the biggest pack of TP he could find, because he got nervous about running out in the case of quarantine. It will be interesting to see what the stores look like today.


----------



## bookreader451

The TP situation is starting in NY too.  It is so weird to go into a store and see empty shelves all over, TP, paper towels, no clorox wipes, no alcohol, soup section depleted.  I have taken to wearing my soapin' gloves in stores so I am not touching carts or payment keypads.  

My hubby is at risk so I am being very mindful of everything I touch in public.  Unfortunately, he isn't taking this as serious as I am and thinks I am overreacting.


----------



## Megan

What is really irking me is that people around me are like: "it's just a cold", "I'm not worried about getting it", "I'll be fine", "this is being overblown by the media", "it's only bad if you are old or have preexisting conditions".....
To these people: stop being so GD selfish. This is a big deal. We need to start taking precautions, work on social distancing as much as possible and only travel if absolutely necessary. It's not about just you. It's about the 20% of people who get this who will get a severe form of the disease that will need medical intervention. 
It's about not overwhelming our healthcare centers and putting our healthcare workers at risk. We saw what happened in the early days of Wuhan. We are seeing what is happening in Italy right now. They are picking who they are trying to save, who they think has the best chance...sorry about the other guy. It's about what happens to patients when we run out of ventilators.


----------



## szaza

I'm on 2 days of paid sick leave because of a slight cough


----------



## Kcryss

Megan said:


> What is really irking me is that people around me are like: "it's just a cold", "I'm not worried about getting it", "I'll be fine", "this is being overblown by the media", "it's only bad if you are old or have preexisting conditions".....
> To these people: stop being so GD selfish. This is a big deal. We need to start taking precautions, work on social distancing as much as possible and only travel if absolutely necessary. It's not about just you. It's about the 20% of people who get this who will get a severe form of the disease that will need medical intervention.
> It's about not overwhelming our healthcare centers and putting our healthcare workers at risk. We saw what happened in the early days of Wuhan. We are seeing what is happening in Italy right now. They are picking who they are trying to save, who they think has the best chance...sorry about the other guy. It's about what happens to patients when we run out of ventilators.



I agree. When I hear people saying things like that, when I have the chance, I explain to them (in a kind and caring way of course) that they can easily carry it to others and potentially cause their death. That generally stops them in their tracks and makes them re-think the whole situation. 
I think that young healthy people just don't think about the impact they might have on other more vulnerable people. Sometimes, they just need to be kindly educated.


----------



## Kiti Williams

My community has a food bank hosted by the religious groups in town.  We are taking the common sense precautions and all of us are keeping contact with our elderly clients.  I have not seen a TP, Paper Towel, or disinfecting product shortage.  Keep calm and wash your hands!


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Sending prayers!

My main concern is my 98 year old father. He has heart disease and diabetes. We usually have some sort of doctor's appointment about once a week. We're doing a lot of handwashing. I have wipes in the car too. I have always bought about 6 containers at a time from Amazon, and had just received a carton before all this craziness started. So I feel very fortunate in that regard.
Best wishes to all.


----------



## jcandleattic

I've officially cancelled my vacation - just the right thing to do. Our company is on the BCP protocol globally so all offices globally will work with 50% working from home, 50% working from the office (if the office is not shut down completely like Singapore, Manilla, Italy and a few others where 100% are working from home) and "social distancing" which means if you are in the office you are to be at least 6 feet apart from another person working. If you have meetings, no more than 3 physical persons are to attend the meeting unless they are in a different conference room (3 to a room) or else you need to do the meeting by video conference. If you take public transportation to get to work (I used to ride the bus when our office was downtown) it's mandated you find other means of transportation, or you work from home, etc., 

We are very lucky, we have the ability to work from home. There are so many companies out there that either don't allow for that or make you take PTO if you are staying home, etc,


----------



## dibbles

jcandleattic said:


> We are very lucky, we have the ability to work from home. There are so many companies out there that either don't allow for that or make you take PTO if you are staying home, etc,


Not to mention those that physically have to be at work. 

Hubby went to Costco yesterday. There was no paper towels, toilet paper or tissues. I went to the grocery store today. Toilet paper was limited to one package per day (at least they had some) and there were plenty of the other paper products. There are 5 confirmed/presumptive cases in MN as of this morning.


----------



## jcandleattic

dibbles said:


> Not to mention those that physically have to be at work.


Like my husband. He works manual labor, no way to "work from home" so he would have to use PTO or be out of a job. Many many people are in that situation and I feel so horrible for them. Can't afford to be sick, can't afford to be out of work, but are told to stay away..


----------



## Kcryss

With the exception of corp type jobs, I think a lot people are in that boat. This will have a devastating impact to many many people even if they don't actually get sick.


----------



## jcandleattic

Kcryss said:


> This will have a devastating impact to many many people even if they don't actually get sick.


100% agree. Globally.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

This link to a news piece on why washing hands with good old soap is better than using hand sanitizer or plain water just came up in my email at work_._

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ail&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-90abc25e3e-44722473


----------



## Obsidian

I'm getting really fed up with the panic buying already. I just want a dang bottle of hand sanitizer for my 92 yr old grandma.

Not that she is going out and doing stuff but it would make her feel better to have a supply. At least she has a little left and I always have some on hand when I take her to town.


----------



## Kcryss

Obsidian said:


> I'm getting really fed up with the panic buying already. I just want a dang bottle of hand sanitizer for my 92 yr old grandma.
> 
> Not that she is going out and doing stuff but it would make her feel better to have a supply. At least she has a little left and I always have some on hand when I take her to town.


I will see if I can find some out here. If I do, I'll let you know. Can mail it to you.


----------



## Ladka

I live in Slovenia, bordering Italy. As of today schools are closed and so are universities and most kindergartens. No public events, no gatherings, no holy masses for public. I have diabetes, heart disease and am old. At risk by all three factors. I do what I can, pray and hope for the best.


----------



## Kcryss

44 presumptive cases now in Colorado. About half in the Denver area, the other half in the mountain areas.
Some schools closing and most public events cancelled ... will probably be all soon.


----------



## Obsidian

Kcryss said:


> I will see if I can find some out here. If I do, I'll let you know. Can mail it to you.



Thank you, I'd really appreciate that.


----------



## GML

The only good thing about this entire situation is the various gyms I visit have never been cleaner.


----------



## jcandleattic

GML said:


> The only good thing about this entire situation is the various gyms I visit have never been cleaner.


My local gym has closed down other than during off-peak hours. 9pm-6am, and open again at 9am-3pm.


----------



## Kcryss

We were within minutes of getting our house under contract, and the buyers backed out ... said we are headed for a recession due to the virus and this is a bad time to buy a house.


----------



## GML

Sounds like someone is listening to the msm which is doing all they can to create a panic. Sorry that they have backed out.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Obsidian said:


> I'm getting really fed up with the panic buying already. I just want a dang bottle of hand sanitizer for my 92 yr old grandma.


Have you thought about making your own? @DeeAnna did an article with some good links.  You only really need isopropyl alcohol and aloe vera.
https://classicbells.com/soap/sanitizer.asp


----------



## BattleGnome

I live in upper Michigan, 2 cases were announced in lower Michigan yesterday. My husband works at Walmart, there was a run on tp, paper towels, and hand sanitizer. He picked up beans and rice just in case today, if nothing else we have food.


----------



## Adobehead

I am trying to not not allow myself to be manipulated by fear or panic, but sensible is good.  I thought carrying a little spray bottle of alcohol and a cleaning rag in my purse would be good, have you read the statistics about grocery store cart handles?  The toilets are cleaner, so I will wipe my cart down before shopping.  Also we have touch screens here for paying utilities and banking, not going to do that without a wipe.  I already clean my phone regularly.

As a soaper, I prefer soap and water over hand sanitizer.  Unless there is no water...... but that's rare.  Best to everyone, be safe and be calm.


----------



## Adobehead

Nona'sFarm said:


> Have you thought about making your own? @DeeAnna did an article with some good links.  You only really need isopropyl alcohol and aloe vera.
> https://classicbells.com/soap/sanitizer.asp


Good idea and it costs nothing.


----------



## DeeAnna

"..._For the vast majority of people nationwide and worldwide, this virus *is not about you*. This is one of those times in life, in history, when your actions are about something bigger. They are about someone else. They are about something greater, a greater good that you may not ever witness. A person you will save who you will never meet._..."

http://gretchenschmelzer.com/blog-1/2020/3/10/can-we-make-this-our-finest-hour


----------



## dibbles

I was behind a man checking out at the grocery store. He was wearing gloves (which is fine), and had evidently already stockpiled all the TP, etc. he thought he would need, and was just stocking up on his essentials in case of quarantine. He bought 2 big packages of bologna, 6 bags of Frito's, a case of Spaghettio's, a loaf of bread and 2 boxes of frozen fudge bars. To each his own I guess 

My niece said she read that the biggest gain in grocery sales was gummy bears. The biggest decline was celery.

And, I confess, I kind of wish I had bought a box or two of mac and cheese.


----------



## Serene

We went to the store for our usual weekly shopping.   They were completely out of Mac and Cheese, toilet paper and towels,  Pasta sauce, etc.  Plenty of veggies and other miscellaneous stuff that you have to prepare.     All stores in the area our out of mainly toilet paper and towels


----------



## Mobjack Bay

The TP section in my supermarket.  They moved a few containers of wipes into the section in case someone is desperate.


----------



## Obsidian

Nona'sFarm said:


> Have you thought about making your own?



I actually tried and it came out really watery, would need to be in a spray bottle.
Gramma really needs things she is familiar with, she gets confused way too easy these days. She would probably clean her table with a spray bottle and not her hands.

@dibbles I could get on board with the fudgecicles, need to remember that next time.

I stocked up on things like beans, rice, meat, sauces, top ramen and canned goods. Even got flour and what not to bake with if neccessary.
I even bought spam, for the first time in like 30 years.

Didn't forget the pets either. Bought a big bag of cheap dog for a absolute emergency, otherwise I order from chewy.
Still need to get snake food and more bird seed, suppose some extra fish food would be a good idea too.

So far the only thing sold out is hand sanitizer and sanitizing wipes. Cleaners are getting a little low but not bad. Lots of TP and paper towels. The only cleaner I bought extra of is bleach, should get vinegar too.


----------



## Obsidian

If I could paint, I would so make some of these.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Obsidian said:


> If I could paint, I would so make some of these.


----------



## dibbles

Mobjack Bay said:


> The TP section in my supermarket.  They moved a few containers of wipes into the section in case someone is desperate.
> 
> View attachment 44478


OMG the brushes hanging there. Reminds me of my grandma talking about corn cobs in the outhouse on the farm when she was a girl.


----------



## Dawni

I guess the same thing is happening everywhere, yeah? Yesterday I went to buy bread, not planning on stockpiling or anything and there was almost nothing in the nearby supermarket.

This stupid virus has finally hit close to home - as in literally less than 2km where our first local case, a husband with no history of recent outside travel, unfortunately infected his wife and she has passed on. I know this gated community where they live and used to have friends there. The whole place has been on lock down for a couple of weeks now. I'm praying for my classmates parents and everyone there....

Our president has yesterday decreed a lock down on Metro Manila starting Monday. Only those who have to go to work are allowed to cross from the outskirts (where I am) into the city and vice versa, and all schools have no classes until tentatively April 8th. I haven't checked the news again but we have 52 confirmed cases and already a couple of deaths. A bigger number of these are people who have travelled but the number of those who haven't is growing.

We as a country are severely lacking in financial resources to weather this if it goes on for a long time. We are unfortunately extremely dependent on China, and they on us - there's like a gazillion of them here lol and I feel really bad when I hear them being mistreated despite not having the virus. People who are barely making it between paychecks are going to have to struggle more now with some workplaces even closing down temporarily. 

To make things worse, both my SO and my dad are not allowed to travel into the country until travel bans have been lifted. My baby hasn't seen his dad in a year and a half due to work. Yesterday we were talking and he said it's a strange feeling in his chest knowing he can't come home just yet. For me there's constant worrying for them - at least here we're together (me, my kids, grandma and mom) - and those two are alone. I can imagine what they're feeling as well.


----------



## bookreader451

Adobehead said:


> I am trying to not not allow myself to be manipulated by fear or panic, but sensible is good.  I thought carrying a little spray bottle of alcohol and a cleaning rag in my purse would be good, have you read the statistics about grocery store cart handles?  The toilets are cleaner, so I will wipe my cart down before shopping.  Also we have touch screens here for paying utilities and banking, not going to do that without a wipe.  I already clean my phone regularly.
> 
> As a soaper, I prefer soap and water over hand sanitizer.  Unless there is no water...... but that's rare.  Best to everyone, be safe and be calm.


I have been wearing nitrile gloves for shopping and tossing them once the groceries are in the car.   Keypads are just as filthy as carts.


----------



## Kcryss

@Obsidian I'm sorry, I went shopping after work yesterday. No hand sanitizer of any kind, no alcohol, no tp ... my husband is checking the other stores in the area today as they were already closed last night, but it's a small town with little shopping options so I don't have high hopes at this point.

Was just cleaning my eyeglasses with a wipe ... smells like alcohol. I don't know what the percentage is, but the smell is strong. I wonder if those would work as well? In the absence of other alternatives, it might work ... at least to some degree? I don't know ... just a thought. I wonder what other items out there might contain high percentages of alcohol that are still sitting on store shelves?


----------



## Obsidian

@Kcryss  thanks for trying. Pretty sure it going to be like that everywhere.


----------



## Kcryss

I'm trying to verify what I'm seeing with regard to the eyeglass cleaning wipes. It looks like Zeiss has wipes that are 70% alcohol. 
I went to the walmart site and, at least in my area, they are still available. Also, Home Depot maybe have the industrial size bags of hand sanitizer that find in public stores/restaurants.


----------



## Jersey Girl

dibbles said:


> My niece said she read that the biggest gain in grocery sales was gummy bears. The biggest decline was celery.


  Haha!  I make chicken soup all the time from the Costco chickens so I just bought two bags of celery...doing my part!


----------



## Megan

DeeAnna said:


> "..._For the vast majority of people nationwide and worldwide, this virus *is not about you*. This is one of those times in life, in history, when your actions are about something bigger. They are about someone else. They are about something greater, a greater good that you may not ever witness. A person you will save who you will never meet._..."
> 
> http://gretchenschmelzer.com/blog-1/2020/3/10/can-we-make-this-our-finest-hour


Deanna, I wish more people understood this...in the midwest it is looking bad because (although the powers that be are taking some of the right measures), most people I've talked with are not concerned and I feel many people will not follow the rules put in place. I would expect this from the teenagers that were just put on an extended spring break, but I just wish their parents had enough sense to explain the severity of the situation to them (or at least understand it themselves).


----------



## Jersey Girl

bookreader451 said:


> I have been wearing nitrile gloves for shopping and tossing them once the groceries are in the car.   Keypads are just as filthy as carts.


 Im doing the same.


----------



## Kcryss

Sadly, the eyeglass wipes are only 4% alcohol. Lysol wipes work though. 
https://www.winknews.com/2020/03/13/heres-a-list-of-disinfectants-you-can-use-against-coronavirus/

Here's link of approved disinfectants that kill the virus.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2020-03/documents/sars-cov-2-list_03-03-2020.pdf


----------



## Adobehead

bookreader451 said:


> I have been wearing nitrile gloves for shopping and tossing them once the groceries are in the car.   Keypads are just as filthy as carts.


good idea.  will look for some.


----------



## Claudette Carignan

bookreader451 said:


> The TP situation is starting in NY too.  It is so weird to go into a store and see empty shelves all over, TP, paper towels, no clorox wipes, no alcohol, soup section depleted.  I have taken to wearing my soapin' gloves in stores so I am not touching carts or payment keypads.
> 
> My hubby is at risk so I am being very mindful of everything I touch in public.  Unfortunately, he isn't taking this as serious as I am and thinks I am overreacting.


I’m in the same situation. My husband is on the heart transplant list and is not worried at all. I’m the one taking all the precautions and he gives no fluffs!!! It’s so frustrating!! I cant Get through to him. Even our daughter has been lecturing him about not going out and if he has to to take the necessary steps to protect himself.


----------



## shunt2011

I just got back from NY, things were pretty normal there.  They've closed all schools here for the next 3 weeks.  All concerts and large gatherings have been canceled.  It's crazy.   I can't even get a salad a work right now.  Lines all the way around Costco when my daughter drove by and she waited in line 45 minutes to check out at the grocery store just for weekly shopping. No toilet paper, no ramen noodles, no mac and cheese.


----------



## Saffron

Are we the only country that hasn't closed schools and public places? It's the Cheltenham races this week (aka Cheltenham Festival) and lots of people from work are there now. Saw pictures - the place was absolutely packed!! Thousands of people crowded together watching the races and betting on horses!   Hope they've all washed their hands 

... keep calm and carry on!


----------



## Nanette

All the farmers markets here are planning on closing, Including Mine! I am waiting for the official email notice.....I understand it is a precaution to help the community but boy is it a bummer....loss of income.....foo.


----------



## Lin19687

Last night they closed the schools, Library  & most of the town hall employees are gone too. 
There was TP this past Wednesday when I was at local grocery and Walmart. 
I will stop by the grocery on way to work at 3pm to see how it is.  I don't need anything since my diet is so small with less carbs 
I do have Mac&Cheese that I have not been able to eat due to diet.  Soup, beans, flour/yeast/butter for my bread machine if I need it.
I am more worried about gaining the 15# I just lost because I KNOW I will convince my self that I NEED to make bread and eat the loaf fast   lol

My DD is at home all the time (18, no job) so I am not worried about her.  I work at a Restaurant now so that could be an issue.  I will just wash extra extra.
10 years working in an ER and I have never had the Flu and I do Not get the Flu shot.

Keep your STRESS level down, SLEEP as much as you can, eat and HYDRATE well with GOOD food/healthy drinks, Wash & be smart.  I think these are the best recommendations one can give.
The more one panics the more everyone panics.


----------



## Nanette

A virus is a self assembled nanoparticle with a lipid bilayer. Soap dissolves the lipid bilayer and the virus falls apart....just read that, for all the soapers we are doing the world a great favor!!! Yes, calm and stress free...we share joy, we share fear too....Lin19687  you are right!


----------



## Millie

DH got caught up in the shopping frenzy yesterday, and we now have a year's supply of pasta and corn chips .... but we can't find toilet paper anywhere, hohum, how long do 4 rolls last? 

Our prepper neighbors offered us to room with them, to protect us (they are well armed and hidden from the road) from the hordes of people they imagine descending from the city in a sort of "zombie apocolypse" as they put it. Love them


----------



## GeezLouise

We shop monthly so have a stash of food and tp. If getting food becomes a problem, we may get skinny. Medically fragile and old family members are the bigger concern right now.

If we cannot get more tp, we can use many old washcloths, although it would be like washing diapers again. I routinely use a handheld rinse that resembles a kitchen sink sprayer but DH is unlikely to use it. It's cold... 

We had nurses in the house for two years caring for a family member, and bought inexpensive washcloths as single-use hand towels, which were laundered after use. Instead of vast quantities of paper towels to buy and dispose or sharing larger towels. Also had a sanitizer dispenser because most of the nurses were not thorough washers and acted like it was a babysitting job. Anyway, while the dispenser and nurses are gone now (yeah!) we still have the now-much thinner terry cloth washcloth-hand towels stuffed into the sweatshirt sleeves hung on robe hooks that we used for cloth dispensers.


----------



## PieBorg

I don't get the big rush on TP. Reminds me of what disappears from grocery stores in the southern US when we're expecting snow -- milk and bread. (Are milk sandwiches a thing???)  There are about eleventy bazillion paper mills in this country, a lot of them making TP, so it's not like we depend on China or Europe for  that particular commodity.  As long as the trucking industry is still operating, TP shortages are unlikely.  Or am I missing something?  Are people wrapping their faces with TP because all the surgical masks are gone?  Please tell me they're not!


----------



## Arimara

bookreader451 said:


> The TP situation is starting in NY too.  It is so weird to go into a store and see empty shelves all over, TP, paper towels, no clorox wipes, no alcohol, soup section depleted.  I have taken to wearing my soapin' gloves in stores so I am not touching carts or payment keypads.
> 
> My hubby is at risk so I am being very mindful of everything I touch in public.  Unfortunately, he isn't taking this as serious as I am and thinks I am overreacting.


I showed my grandma a pic of the paper goods isle as well as my sister.


----------



## bookreader451

Millie said:


> DH got caught up in the shopping frenzy yesterday, and we now have a year's supply of pasta and corn chips .... but we can't find toilet paper anywhere, hohum, how long do 4 rolls last?


I went to Costco a couple of months ago and bought 2 packages of TP and paper towels.  I also had a 20 pack of Scott in the basement.  We also have 2 refrigerators freezers and a stand up freezer, pretty full.  My sisters call me an apocalypse  hoarder but no one is laughing at me now.


----------



## Ladka

Nanette said:


> All the farmers markets here are planning on closing, Including Mine!...


I usually order my vegetables, fruits and flours from certified organic farmers who deliver monthly at a earby marketplace. The delivery day was today: the booths inside the building were all empty and all the business was done in the open air. People didn't pack but stood in loose queues, nobody was coughing or sneezing. Was cold and windy! I was glad to be back in my isolation.


----------



## Claudette Carignan

Saffron said:


> Are we the only country that hasn't closed schools and public places? It's the Cheltenham races this week (aka Cheltenham Festival) and lots of people from work are there now. Saw pictures - the place was absolutely packed!! Thousands of people crowded together watching the races and betting on horses!   Hope they've all washed their hands
> 
> ... keep calm and carry on!


OTtawa, Canada’s Capital, where I live Has closed all schools for 3 weeks and all city buildings/programs until April 2. Grocery stores are bare and some of the Costco’s have closed their doors this morning because the crowds are to large and waiting times at others are 2 hours to checkout. I understand The severity of the situation but but it’s getting out of hand


----------



## BattleGnome

PieBorg said:


> I don't get the big rush on TP.



from my understanding the toilet paper thing is four fold. 
1) flu-like symptoms, flu comes out both ends, right?
2) certain countries import toilet paper from China. China shut down so imports are limited quantities.
3) you can’t resupply if you’re stuck in quarantine and if you’re stuck on the toilet... (see #1)
4) everyone else is doing it and I have (insert household members) who like to use toilet paper.


----------



## bookreader451

Can I throw something out here.

I can afford to weather this storm, but there may be some members who cannot.  Is there a way we can come together to maybe help those of us who will genuinely suffer from this? 

Maybe the member can contact the site administrators and let them know of real distress and stay anonymous.....I know we are global and so is Coronavirus.


----------



## GML

BattleGnome said:


> I live in upper Michigan, 2 cases were announced in lower Michigan yesterday. My husband works at Walmart, there was a run on tp, paper towels, and hand sanitizer. He picked up beans and rice just in case today, if nothing else we have food.



And today it's 16 cases today in southern Michigan. And being up in the UP, you can always get your hands on some pasties.


----------



## Obsidian

The apocalypse shopping has officially started here. Store was wall to wall people and TP was flying off the shelves. I don't get why stores don't limit how much one person can buy.

On top of that, there were so many children in the store and a few people coughing. No covered mouths, no one using wipes on the cart.
I came home and scrubbed down. Next store trip will be at opening when no one is around.


----------



## Susie

I still have the hurricane country habits of keeping my house stocked.  I shop meat sales all year round, and load up on pantry and freezer foods as they go on sale.  I did order a gallon of hand sanitizer gel, but only because we don't normally keep it.  We had just stocked up on paper goods and such at Sam's right before this all started, and I wasn't out before we went.  We really are in better shape than most people.  I just hope that people stop freaking out and buying everything.  The trucks will resupply stores.  People just need to calm down.  And hopefully this teaches more people to keep more on hand so they don't have a crisis situation the next time.


----------



## Misschief

Susie said:


> And hopefully this teaches more people to keep more on hand so they don't have a crisis situation the next time.


To a point, we usually keep more than enough on hand (i.e. one package of Costco TP, a 4-pack of paper towels, an 8 pack of tissues.. stuff like that) but we live in a 2 bedroom basement suite (the spare bedroom is my soap room) with very little storage. We don't have room for stocking up on purchases. However, we do have enough to get us through this and our small freezer is stocked with pre-cooked meals, meat, and ingredients for making other meals.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

There are now multiple cases within 30 miles of me.  I am fairly certain that I am only 2 social connections away from one of them.  That’s too close for comfort.  My staff is going to start telecommuting on Monday.


----------



## Kcryss

Up to 77 now in Colorado and everything/everyone is just getting crazier.


----------



## BattleGnome

GML said:


> And today it's 16 cases today in southern Michigan. And being up in the UP, you can always get your hands on some pasties.



pasties sound delicious right now, I’m stuck with a microwave burrito at work.

my husband had a doctors appointment today. Apparently they had a guy in earlier who had been to Asia recently and only decided to visit the doc after a 4 week fever. I assume our numbers are about to jump


----------



## Misschief

I had a doctor's appointment today and asked him about the situation. He had just come from a video conference and was informed that in our town, there is one confirmed case and that person had been traveling and had self-quarantined immediately upon arrival (and is on the mend). Hundreds of tests have been performed and all have been confirmed as Influenza A. There have been no new cases of Covid-19 in this town.... at this point.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

On Thursday, the last day my hubby was at his office, he stopped by the store to pick up some groceries because we are all supposed to be isolating. The fresh veggies and meat were wiped out. The trains are requiring you have a seat assignment so people aren't sitting too close to each other. I went to our one of our little local grocery stores and was able to get a whole chicken so we can plan meals around that. We have enough food to last us for at least a week. I'm more worried about our sanity! Being at home with 2 little ones and not being able to go on train rides and adventures will be a challenge!


----------



## SeaSuds

@MarnieSoapien I hope your little ones have recovered from their sniffles by now  Here in the UK loo roll is now back on the shelves but my order of isopropyl alcohol made over 3 weeks ago to make our own hand sanitiser has still not arrived due to unprecedented demand. I am getting weird looks wiping down my shopping trolley but I do offer to wipe other peoples for them and that brings a smile!  The village I live in has called a meeting to make a plan to help the vulnerable and our little shop is making plans to home deliver, I feel very proud of how everyone is rallying round.  My daughter on the other hand who is so desperate for her university to close so that she can avoid doing a debate then decides to head off to see a Lewis Capaldi concert crammed in with thousands of other people on the eve of the public events lockdown


----------



## Susie

Misschief said:


> To a point, we usually keep more than enough on hand (i.e. one package of Costco TP, a 4-pack of paper towels, an 8 pack of tissues.. stuff like that) but we live in a 2 bedroom basement suite (the spare bedroom is my soap room) with very little storage. We don't have room for stocking up on purchases. However, we do have enough to get us through this and our small freezer is stocked with pre-cooked meals, meat, and ingredients for making other meals.



Even when we lived in a 1 bedroom apartment for a year, I had extras of everything.  I bought those under the bed boxes and you would be shocked how much will fit in those.  Also, a small bookcase/shoe shelf in the closet corralled the shoes so I could use a small bookcase for extra canned goods. Just remember to rotate out the items under there so you don't have to throw stuff away.  And as soon as you take an item out of the "extra" storage to use, put it on your grocery list so you don't ever run completely out.


----------



## sirtim100

The Spanish government has declared a state of emergency. At present this means that all stores, bars discos, etc., are closed, apart from supermarkets and pharmacies. Emergency legislation is now in motion for extending the lock-down on Monday, which shall consist of no movement on the streets unless you're going to/from work, hospital, to buy food or medicines, or to look after someone who is ill. Similar set up to Italy.

With my EPOC, coagulation problems and dicky heart, I'm a prime candidate for hospitalisation and for being a real pain in the butt for the medical services, so I've self-quarantined myself at home. I'm making gallons of hand sanitizer for friends and thinking about making some batches of soap for them as well.

Also on a total Netflix binge. Hooked on "Vikings", toying with watching "Rome" again, and generally relaxing. And praying for everyone, for all of us.

Take care of yourselves. Hugs (at a distance ) from Spain


----------



## Claudette Carignan

Claudette Carignan said:


> I’m in the same situation. My husband is on the heart transplant list and is not worried at all. I’m the one taking all the precautions and he gives no fluffs!!! It’s so frustrating!! I cant Get through to him. Even our daughter has been lecturing him about not going out and if he has to to take the necessary steps to protect himself.


So we were sitting at home yesterday evening and the ottawa heart institute called around 5:00. I just Passes the phone automatically knowing it was for my husband thinking it was a reminder for an upcoming appointment. I hot Up and walked out of the room to check on my dogs and heard his side of the conversation. they had a heart for him. We packed a few things for him and off we went. Landed at administration at 6:45 pm. They wheeled him into the or at 6:30 this morning. I haven’t gotten any updates as of yet. But no news is food news. His surgeon did say it was going to be a long difficult surgery because of having his chest opened twice before. We were told that the waiting period would be 2 to 5 years because of his antibody level being at 100 due to multiple blood transfusions. The shock has finally worn of that it was only 7 months a 1 day!!!!!!! I can’t emphasis how important beings an organ donor is. If it weren’t for the kind empathic selfless person who their licence or donor card or filled out the form on line, My husband wouldn’t have a second chance at life. My deepest sympathies and condolences go out to the person’s family and I thank Them from the bottom of my heart for the precious gift of life. Their loved one’s legacy will live on in my husband and I will Be forever grateful.  
unfortunately my soap making passion will be put on the sidelines for I dont Know how long. But I will Check in every now and then when I get The chance.


----------



## bookreader451

For those of you in NY I heard from the DOH that the Westchester containment is a  show.  No one knows what is going on.  There are no directives.  This is directly from someone who was down there. 

Half our building is DOH offices and they have no directives on what their protocol is if someone in their office tests positive.  I was also told in confidence that someone in our building was being tested. 

I expect to have to self quarantine at some point.

I believe it is up to individuals to be as consciously safe as possible as there doesn't seem to be any consensus from govt on what is the best way to handle this.

Claudette, So happy for you.   Sending good vibes and well wishes to your family.


----------



## msunnerstood

Claudette Carignan said:


> So we were sitting at home yesterday evening and the ottawa heart institute called around 5:00. I just Passes the phone automatically knowing it was for my husband thinking it was a reminder for an upcoming appointment. I hot Up and walked out of the room to check on my dogs and heard his side of the conversation. they had a heart for him. We packed a few things for him and off we went. Landed at administration at 6:45 pm. They wheeled him into the or at 6:30 this morning. I haven’t gotten any updates as of yet. But no news is food news. His surgeon did say it was going to be a long difficult surgery because of having his chest opened twice before. We were told that the waiting period would be 2 to 5 years because of his antibody level being at 100 due to multiple blood transfusions. The shock has finally worn of that it was only 7 months a 1 day!!!!!!! I can’t emphasis how important beings an organ donor is. If it weren’t for the kind empathic selfless person who their licence or donor card or filled out the form on line, My husband wouldn’t have a second chance at life. My deepest sympathies and condolences go out to the person’s family and I thank Them from the bottom of my heart for the precious gift of life. Their loved one’s legacy will live on in my husband and I will Be forever grateful.
> unfortunately my soap making passion will be put on the sidelines for I dont Know how long. But I will Check in every now and then when I get The chance.



Claudette Carignan, I was where you are just 3 years ago this July. Its going to be a long day. My husband went in at 1pm and it was 1am before he came out of surgery. I hope you have family with you so you can take shifts to eat lunch or take a break without missing an update. I am sending prayers for you and your husband and the family of the donor. Hang in there and I am here if yu need to talk with someone who has been there. <3


----------



## Kcryss

@Claudette Carignan Praying for a successful surgery and quick recovery.


----------



## dibbles

@Claudette Carignan I am so happy for your family. You have received the ultimate gift, and I know you are grateful.  Give us an update when you are able.


----------



## Concha

You can do hand sanitizer with Eau de Toilette. It is 78% alcohol. HS has to be 60% alcohol to be safe. You can add a  5% glycerine for hydration and you have it. It is very liquid, but Works. I prefer it to the sticky thing most hand sanitizer are.
Even though, the best is our soap and water.
In Madrid there is no alcohol or wipes or HS for a week.
Fortunately, TP is being at shelves every day. People are crazy.
Rest at home all of you who can. Don't go out.
It is the only way to stop this.
I pray for the British if they don´t do this.​


----------



## Susie

@Claudette Carignan OH, thank God!!!  Praying for your hubby and your family.  You all have a long road to walk.  But at least your hubby will be around to walk it!

DFW went on state of emergency yesterday morning.  All schools closed for at least two weeks.  Lots of companies sending non-essential personnel home to be paid until April.  Unfortunately, my job requires I be there, as does my husband's.  He works on a military base, so they may close the base to non-essential personnel.  His company will pay him if that happens for a couple of weeks.  If they close my office, I am not going to be paid.  Oh, well.  We shall see what happens.  I refuse to live in fear, though.  

On a side note, if y'all haven't seen the videos of Italians singing from their balconies, grab some tissues and go watch it.  Talk about making the best of a bad situation.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@Claudette Carignan This is the most wonderful news!  You may need to put off the soap making for awhile, but I do hope that you will be able to find time, with the support of family and friends, to occasionally do something for yourself, even if it is just getting outside for a walk in the sunshine.  My ex went through a period of kidney failure and dialysis and then had a transplant from my BIL.  Twelve years since later he is still doing very well.  Donors and donor families are true heros. Giving someone life is truly the ultimate gift.  I am also forever grateful to the doctors, ICU nurses and other members of the team that support families through every step.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Claudette Carignan said:


> So we were sitting at home yesterday evening and the ottawa heart institute called around 5:00. I just Passes the phone automatically knowing it was for my husband thinking it was a reminder for an upcoming appointment. I hot Up and walked out of the room to check on my dogs and heard his side of the conversation. they had a heart for him. We packed a few things for him and off we went. Landed at administration at 6:45 pm. They wheeled him into the or at 6:30 this morning. I haven’t gotten any updates as of yet. But no news is food news. His surgeon did say it was going to be a long difficult surgery because of having his chest opened twice before. We were told that the waiting period would be 2 to 5 years because of his antibody level being at 100 due to multiple blood transfusions. The shock has finally worn of that it was only 7 months a 1 day!!!!!!! I can’t emphasis how important beings an organ donor is. If it weren’t for the kind empathic selfless person who their licence or donor card or filled out the form on line, My husband wouldn’t have a second chance at life. My deepest sympathies and condolences go out to the person’s family and I thank Them from the bottom of my heart for the precious gift of life. Their loved one’s legacy will live on in my husband and I will Be forever grateful.
> unfortunately my soap making passion will be put on the sidelines for I dont Know how long. But I will Check in every now and then when I get The chance.



Many prayers for your husband for a successful surgery and a full recovery. God Bless his donor. Sending you a virtual hug.

my sons college sent the kids home this week to study remotely for the next three weeks and just today our local high school closed for two weeks. This is getting really crazy.


----------



## Arimara

Jersey Girl said:


> my sons college sent the kids home this week to study remotely for the next three weeks and just today our local high school closed for two weeks. This is getting really crazy.


NYC schools are still going to be open. I am so glad my mom is not here to see this mess.


----------



## Steve85569

Businesses, Banks, schools, all outside programs at correctional facilities are cancelled and several churches are closed because of the flu. WHY? Viral pneumonia will most likely kill me if I get it. But it won't matter which virus laid the groundwork for it. This one is only a little different than the last 8 or 10.

Don't take me wrong, I am an "at risk" individual - BUT this virus has been weaponized. I have as much chance of getting a fatal case of Covid 19 as I do the flu. Proper hygene and taking care of where I go when I go.
If I NEED sanitizing wipes I will use lens cleaners which are still findable. Or they were before I typed this...
The MEDIA has caused a huge panic .
What the heck does toilet paper have to do with a virus?!?!


----------



## Primrose

Australian shops are an eerie place at the moment. I haven't been able to buy toilet paper for two weeks, although I refuse to (and don't really have the time to) go to 6 or 10 different shops to find some, so I stop at a different place on the way home from work and if I get some I get some, if not and I run out, I'll cut up an old bedsheet. Purchases are limited in most shops now to one or two per person. The shelves are still empty. You ask the cashier and they say well you just have to be here at opening time. That doesn't help those who work in the mornings. Apparently there are 30-50 people all lined up in the morning waiting for doors to open and they are running and pushing and shoving each other to get to the toilet paper. Some shops over east (I am western Australia) are staggering their restocking shelves throughout the day so it allows people like me to get some in the afternoon. Our shops here won't do it because apparently the workers are being assaulted when they bring out the tp.

I have been avoiding the shops in general and not wanting to buy into the panic. I generally keep quite a bit of food at home and I was already starting this year to eat my way through the pantry, try to produce more at home and generally buy as little as possible. I have an endless supply of milk and meat wandering around the paddocks and I make cheese, yoghurt etc. But it looks more and more like we may actually start having shortages and potentially shops may actually start closing so I thought it might be prudent to tackle it yesterday just for a couple of minor things. 

Our Prime minister on Friday announced that by Monday, any large public gatherings of 500 people should be cancelled. I believe this will only fuel the panic buying even more.

I went to an Aldi that was completely eerie. They've shoved extra shelves of stock into all the aisles willy nilly and there were long rows of simply empty shelves. Not only the toilet paper and paper towel, much of the food. Chips and biscuits were hit hard, those shelves were completely empty not a single packet left. Canned goods, pasta, flour  rice etc maybe a quarter was left. I have heard reports of some shops with the frozen sections completely cleared. 

I found one shop that has individual rolls of toilet paper and you are only allowed to buy two. At least it's something. 

I could probably not go to the shops for a month or several now, though my food options may be a little bland, repetitive or somewhat creative haha but I am not fussy. 

I do believe within a few weeks our country will also begin shutting schools and other things as well. 

One event I was heading to has been cancelled. I suspect three others will be, just haven't heard yet. That is about $4.5k and almost half my yearly sales that I was expecting, gone. Thank goodness I have a 'real job'and don't rely on soap to pay the rent and bills.  my real job is considered front line so even if we test positive, as long as we aren't deathly ill we have been told we are expected to come to work as we will be needed.



Steve85569 said:


> Businesses, Banks, schools, all outside programs at correctional facilities are cancelled and several churches are closed because of the flu. WHY? Viral pneumonia will most likely kill me if I get it. But it won't matter which virus laid the groundwork for it. This one is only a little different than the last 8 or 10.
> 
> Don't take me wrong, I am an "at risk" individual - BUT this virus has been weaponized. I have as much chance of getting a fatal case of Covid 19 as I do the flu. Proper hygene and taking care of where I go when I go.
> If I NEED sanitizing wipes I will use lens cleaners which are still findable. Or they were before I typed this...
> The MEDIA has caused a huge panic .
> What the heck does toilet paper have to do with a virus?!?!



With all due respect, firstly you are more likely to survive the normal flu than COVID. Secondly the rapid transmission and number of cases requiring hospitalization because our population has no immunity to it, the overburdened hospital system, that will also markedly increase your chance of dying - because you won't be able to receive proper care.

The social distancing, isolation etc isn't about containment as such - we missed the boat there, this disease is in our communities - it's about slowing the rate at which those severe cases happen to give the health system a chance to cope. If you expect a community will have say 1000 people will contract it in the high risk group and need hospitalization but your hospital only has 300 beds and only a quarter of those are ICU. What these measures are trying to do is to spread those 1000 cases over weeks or months, so that 1000 people don't all turn up in the same day and we can't care for them.


----------



## Relle

Primrose said:


> One event I was heading to has been cancelled. I suspect three others will be, just haven't heard yet. That is about $4.5k and almost half my yearly sales that I was expecting, gone.



The Royal Easter Show here has been cancelled just weeks away. They have 800,000 people through the gate. It also affects the farmers.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Claudette Carignan said:


> they had a heart for him.


How wonderful! So nice to hear good news amidst all the worrisome troubles of the world at this time.


----------



## Primrose

Relle said:


> The Royal Easter Show here has been cancelled just weeks away. They have 800,000 people through the gate. It also affects the farmers.



Yep I was saying the other day it would be inevitable and sure enough ...


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Steve85569 said:


> Businesses, Banks, schools, all outside programs at correctional facilities are cancelled and several churches are closed because of the flu. WHY?
> The MEDIA has caused a huge panic .
> What the heck does toilet paper have to do with a virus?!?!


I've been keeping a very close eye on COVID-19 since the beginning of the year when a friend of mine who was living and working in China was evacuated. This "flu" has closed the borders of several countries, including the one I am currently living in. I read one report that showed the mortality rate in Italy, if you had a severe enough case to be admitted into the hospital was as high as 45%. If that's not enough to get your attention, I don't know what will be. 

Stay away from crowds. Wash your hands often. This is serious. Like @Primrose already pointed out, these measures are so our hospitals don't get overcrowded.


----------



## LilyJo

I am as concerned for my health and my parents as much as anyone but the quotes of 45% mortality is wildly off the mark and just feed into the anxiety.

The death rate is around 1-2% but given it's based on the number of known cases it's likely to get less plus you cannot equate population demographics or healthcare across China, Italy, the UK or the US. Very different populations, health care and welfare systems.

Yes this is potentially the biggest global challenge in generations and we can all do our bit to protect ourselves, our families and our neighbours.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

LilyJo said:


> I am as concerned for my health and my parents as much as anyone but the quotes of 45% mortality is wildly off the mark and just feed into the anxiety.


I had this exact conversation with my husband! 45% of people admitted to the hospital with a resolved outcome. NOT 45% of the infected.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/

It is possible that I am misinterpreting the numbers. It looks like worldwide the mortality rate is at 7% of people hospitalized.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

80% of cases are mild, with about 2% of reported cases being fatal.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-symptoms/


----------



## Susie

Actually, according to the WHO this morning, the worldwide death rate is 3.4%.


----------



## sirtim100

Here in Spain, the police are now driving around with megaphones, warning people and telling them to go home. Tomorrow they start arresting people if they're not on the streets for a good reason. That's the tough, and necessary, news.

What I find really moving is the reaction of people here in Spain and Italy. In Italy they organise improptu concerts of music from their balconies, sing to each other, and put up big signs saying "everything's going to be fine". Here in Spain there have been spontaneous outbreaks of applause for the health service workers (who are working to the limit to manage the outbreak), from balconies, etc. Tonight we're going to hold one in Galicia at 20:00 local time (GMT +1). Give us a quick round of applause, we're doing everything we can. The general level of solidarity brings tears to my eyes. If there's something I want to remember from all this crisis, it's that there are a lot of very very good people out there.

Meanwhile, I've got to Season 2, Episode 2, of Vikings...

Big hugs to you all and take care.


----------



## Kcryss

Susie said:


> Actually, according to the WHO this morning, the worldwide death rate is 3.4%.


That's the number I've been seeing as well. They are showing that with Influenza the death rate is  .1%   and this one is 3.4%. HUGE difference between this and influenza with the potential to kill millions rather then thousands.

So, even though younger people can get this virus without getting too sick, they can easily pass it to others in the population that can and will die from it. Everyone doing their part to prevent the spread will save many lives.


----------



## snappyllama

Hey guys, I haven't posted in a while, but I wanted to check up on how everyone is doing...

I happened to find some hand sanitizer at Bulk Apothecary when shopping for soaping supplies. I wanted to pass that along for folks that are looking for the gel for their relatives that need something familiar.


----------



## DeeAnna

I think the real test of people's mettle in the US, UK, and western Europe will come in the next 4 to 8 weeks after the novelty has worn off and the disease has become widespread and perhaps very personal. 

An article I read recently gave an estimate of about 2 months before a pandemic will start to ebb once it gains a foothold in a region. That number seems reasonable based on the timing of the spread of the 1918 influenza in the US. (Here's a source that contains a widely shared chart of the timeline of this flu in St Louis and Pittsburgh, USA -- https://qz.com/1816060/a-chart-of-the-1918-spanish-flu-shows-why-social-distancing-works/ )


----------



## Kcryss

Thanks for sharing that @DeeAnna. Interesting read. I found another interesting article on that page as well regarding the economic impacts: https://qz.com/1818061/robert-shill...tion-is-different-from-other-economic-crises/


----------



## Lin19687

@ClaudetteCarignan  I am SO HAPPY for you and hope that all goes swimmingly for you all there !  PLEASE start another thread so that we can know how it is all going AND so that you have a place to Vent when you need to.  It can be overwhelming sometimes with all the care and such !

I decided to go to the grocery this morning at 8:30, figured it would not be as crowded, it was pretty dead.  No TP, not that I needed it, but people were buying paper towels.  Funny, there was a TON of Tissue paper.  I went because my DD came in and told me last night (she's 18) to not take any extra shifts, Don't go anywhere unless it is an emergency.... So while she was sleeping I went.  To ease her mind I wanted to have some extra things here... soups (we already had 10) but mainly drinks like Gatorade and Apple/OJ in case we get sick.  I actually filled the cart lol, I have not done that in years.  But it is mainly staple things and extra cheese, she loves cheese.
I wiped everything including myself with Alcohol (91% because I have that for soaping), all knobs, door handles, anything I touched and ANY Item I bought.  It's a bit much but  I thought better to just be safe as people go to the grocery even if they are sick.
Now to see how the Restaurant will do tonight and this week. 

MASS has 119 presumptive and 19 confirmed.  Which is nothing compared to Washington state, 600+cases and 40 deaths.

EDIT to add that they have now closed restaurants and Bars in South Boston to help curb the spread.  
Can you imagine???!!!  No St Patty's day in Boston !!


----------



## Kiti Williams

Claudette Carignan said:


> So we were sitting at home yesterday evening and the ottawa heart institute called around 5:00. I just Passes the phone automatically knowing it was for my husband thinking it was a reminder for an upcoming appointment. I hot Up and walked out of the room to check on my dogs and heard his side of the conversation. they had a heart for him. We packed a few things for him and off we went. Landed at administration at 6:45 pm. They wheeled him into the or at 6:30 this morning. I haven’t gotten any updates as of yet. But no news is food news. His surgeon did say it was going to be a long difficult surgery because of having his chest opened twice before. We were told that the waiting period would be 2 to 5 years because of his antibody level being at 100 due to multiple blood transfusions. The shock has finally worn of that it was only 7 months a 1 day!!!!!!! I can’t emphasis how important beings an organ donor is. If it weren’t for the kind empathic selfless person who their licence or donor card or filled out the form on line, My husband wouldn’t have a second chance at life. My deepest sympathies and condolences go out to the person’s family and I thank Them from the bottom of my heart for the precious gift of life. Their loved one’s legacy will live on in my husband and I will Be forever grateful.
> unfortunately my soap making passion will be put on the sidelines for I dont Know how long. But I will Check in every now and then when I get The chance.




  So happy for you!  May G-d's continued Grace be on both of you!


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## Mobjack Bay

The novelty definitely wore off quickly for me.  As a second tier administrator for my school within the university, I have attended enough meetings over the past two weeks to make my head spin and have had to write and guide the implementation of the academic continuity plan for the school and the operational continuity plans for my unit. The amount of e-mail traffic is unbelievable.  After spending much of my day today reading and answering email, setting up virtual meetings instead of in-person meetings and generally carrying on with what needs to be done, the thought that we are just at the beginning of this pandemic in the US feels a bit overwhelming.  The bright spot in my day was the conversation I had with my 88 yr old dad.  Although he has had many health problems over the last year, he sounded really good on the phone today.  I am thankful for that.


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## atiz

DeeAnna said:


> I think the real test of people's mettle in the US, UK, and western Europe will come in the next 4 to 8 weeks after the novelty has worn off and the disease has become widespread and perhaps very personal.
> 
> An article I read recently gave an estimate of about 2 months before a pandemic will start to ebb once it gains a foothold in a region. That number seems reasonable based on the timing of the spread of the 1918 influenza in the US. (Here's a source that contains a widely shared chart of the timeline of this flu in St Louis and Pittsburgh, USA -- https://qz.com/1816060/a-chart-of-the-1918-spanish-flu-shows-why-social-distancing-works/ )



Hah, this is very interesting. Completely accidentally I'm reading the novel "The Murmur of the Bees" by Segovia (which is great, if anyone has not read it!), which starts with the 1918 flu outbreak. It is quite fascinating (and sad) how people are making the same kinds of arguments now as they did back then (as if we were somehow completely incapable of learning from history...).
Yeah, our university is online now too, so I better figure out how to do that. But I still know people in town who say this is all just in the media... 
Take care everyone. And if anyone needs any extra soap, just let me know


----------



## Nona'sFarm

atiz said:


> Hah, this is very interesting. Completely accidentally I'm reading the novel "The Murmur of the Bees" by Segovia (which is great, if anyone has not read it!), which starts with the 1918 flu outbreak.


Yes, I read that book and when we kept getting messages that covid-19 was definitely going to spread world wide, I kept thinking back to that book.


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## Serene

This is in NH.  Guess who was there for 3 hours on March 4th.


----------



## szaza

As for the death rates, keep in mind that a lot of people are not being tested if their symptoms are only mild and there's no risk of complications. This will make the measured death rate higher than it actually is, since there's an unknown, unmeasured amount of patients with light symptoms that recover.


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## dibbles

@Serene I hope you weren’t in close contact with her. Be well!


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## Serene

dibbles said:


> @Serene I hope you weren’t in close contact with her. Be well!



We are not sure yet.  We are under voluntary quarantine since this all started, only going out if we had to.   That day, since we had to renew our tag and change of address after the big move, we went out to get that done.   We did not find out about our exposure until yesterday, but we were already keeping to ourselves and wearing gloves, mask, etc.  No official word yet as to who she came in contact with.  From what I understand they're making phone calls after they figure it out.   We are just waiting for the 2 weeks incubation period  at this point and will continue the quarantine unless its for a Drs visit.  We have plenty of essentials and we have delivery service from the local stores.  We will see.   Please be safe out there. 

(making soap with  what you can call a hazmat suit at this point and not touching any of it without gloves when cleaning them up. Its the only thing keeping me sane.)


----------



## Lin19687

Whelp.... Mass has officially closed ALL restaurants starting Tuesday   Except for togo/delivery.
So everyone I work with are panicking.  No definite word on what will happen with pay or the likes.  One of my places 'Thinks' they will stay open for togo, but they don't do enough business in general so I know that will only last a day.  The other said they would stay open but they do a TON of togo, but even they are thinking it might not be worth it. Both are major restaurant chains and Both do Scratch meals- no frozen.  Money wise neither will be worth it to keep the doors open for it in the long run.

At least on my way into work I stopped and got the dry kitty food I had forgotten this morning , duh....but she had enough for about 2 weeks.
Just tossed in the meats I got to the freezer instead for later in the month.

Stores tomorrow will be crazy with people stocking up.


----------



## BattleGnome

I talked to my mom and sister today. Illinois is shutting down too. I’m in Michigan and so far it’s just schools closing for 3 weeks. 


I guess I’m lucky and technically am in a “recession proof” job (adult foster care) but have haven’t heard anything from the higher ups. No postings or texts about what would happen if one of our clients needs to quarantine. We’re staffed 24 hours, you can’t switch shifts unless you want to defeat the purpose of a quarantine. By chance I saw my manager the other day and was able to find out that we’ll have a meeting in 2 weeks (unrelated, schedules have been a week in advanced until some staffing issues are worked out). Unfortunately, it sounds like a standard staff meeting with treatment teams coming in to update us on plans not something geared towards helping the unfortunate person who will be stuck with a 336 hour paycheck


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## Arimara

The mayor recanted and NYC schools will be shut down until April. I also ordered some food I regret buying but if someone is getting paid, I'm glad.


----------



## penelopejane

szaza said:


> I'm on 2 days of paid sick leave because of a slight cough


Good on you.  Looks like my nephew has caught Corona virus from the guy sitting next to him at work.


----------



## szaza

penelopejane said:


> Good on you.  Looks like my nephew has caught Corona virus from the guy sitting next to him at work.


Oh no! That's probably why they're being really strict about staying home when you only have slight symptoms of a cold. I hope he's not in the risk group and I wish him a speedy recovery. 
My 2 days have been prolonged to a week because of a change in the guidelines. I'm in isolation now, which means staying home and sending my boyfriend to the grocery store for me while I make soap. I try to complain but I just really can't and 
I feel so very sorry for all the people who are greatly affected by this.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

penelopejane said:


> Good on you.  Looks like my nephew has caught Corona virus from the guy sitting next to him at work.


I hope he’s okay!  One of my friends just found out that two regular attendees of their church we’re confirmed positive for the virus.


----------



## penelopejane

Mobjack Bay said:


> I hope he’s okay!  One of my friends just found out that two regular attendees of their church we’re confirmed positive for the virus.


I hope they are young.


----------



## BattleGnome

I just found a slightly used n95 mask in my bag and and slightly more used unrated mask in my bag. 

it’s a larger “handbag of holding” that I usually use for travel  but have been using for work since a can of soda exploded in my usual bag. The unrated mask was one my mom gave me before we went to Greece a year ago. I think the n95 was from the walk-in clinic in November when I was sniffly but had an ear infection right before getting on a plane to my brother’s wedding. I alternately want to jump for joy at having masks if one of us catches covid and needs to get to a doctor and am horrified that I have to be happy with used masks. 

the little things are also helping me avoid the reality. My brother can’t go into the office because one of his coworkers is being tested for confirmed contact with someone who has the virus. My sister and her husband are both pharmacists. She works at Walgreens, he works in a hospital. I’ll get to heat about both ends of medical needs during the crisis


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## Mobjack Bay

penelopejane said:


> I hope they are young.


They’re in their 40s, but the community they live in attracts retirees and many in their congregation are older.  This area of Virginia, and that community in particular has one of the highest rates of increase in confirmed cases recorded so far in the US. Most of them resulted from known direct contact.

ETA: our governor has had to encourage people to stay home from church.


----------



## atiz

Mobjack Bay said:


> They’re in their 40s, but the community they live in attracts retirees and many in their congregation are older.  This area of Virginia, and that community in particular has one of the highest rates of increase in confirmed cases recorded so far in the US. Most of them resulted from known direct contact.
> 
> ETA: our governor has had to encourage people to stay home from church.


Yeah, I wish they had just canceled. NYC and Chicago has canceled masses already. But there are very well-intentioned people in town here who think that fear is from the devil and everything will be okay if we just stick together.... I understand that, but still, it's just the opposite of what everyone should be doing.


----------



## Ladka

Likewise, we had no public masses in any Catholic church here in Slovenia yesterday. So I attended a mass on the internet: a priest celebrated the mass in a completely empty church and there were over 2500 registered viewers. A strange experience though.


----------



## Noreen Moore

This is absolutely crazy! Everyone else their jobs are on hold except for mine. Bedside RN... Job security? No thanks! Stores are sold out of food and toilet paper!  Sure enough when I got to Florida on the 7th by the 8th my granddaughter was sick!!! Head cold. All sinus. So no corona. Luckily we did hit up the Disney theme parks before they closed them all down. Now the grandson is in the midst of if.  Schools all closed.  Wow!!! Never in my life have I seen such a thing. 
Luckily I have oodles of soap.


----------



## shunt2011

I just received notification that two people at the conference I was at last week have tested positive for the virus.  As of 3:00 today all restaurants and bars are to be closed here except drive thru and carry out.   I work in a hospital so we are all hands on deck.  They are now doing drive through pre-checks for patient that have symptoms.  All the grocery shelves in most stores are almost bare for a lot of items.


----------



## soapmaker

bookreader451 said:


> Can I throw something out here.
> 
> I can afford to weather this storm, but there may be some members who cannot.  Is there a way we can come together to maybe help those of us who will genuinely suffer from this?
> 
> Maybe the member can contact the site administrators and let them know of real distress and stay anonymous.....I know we are global and so is Coronavirus.



Exactly. We here, in more privileged circumstances (at the moment) make light of what could be a very serious situation for us in a month and it *is *a very serious situation in other parts of the world as we write.


----------



## shunt2011

soapmaker said:


> Exactly. We here, in more privileged circumstances (at the moment) make light of what could be a very serious situation for us in a month and it *is *a very serious situation in other parts of the world as we write.



I agree.  I would hope if someone is in need they would reach out.   It's a very scary time for many and there are a lot of caring folks here.


----------



## Lin19687

I am happy that I no longer work at a Hospital.  Because even though I had switched to a desk job at an off site building to do appointment calls, they know I used to work in the ER and would have me go back.  I would go because well I would.  But that won't happen now.

I released my 4-8pm shift at the restaurant today and emailed the Store Manager to see if someone that NEEDS the $$ more wants the shift.  All of the Servers are out of a job and I know some of them are also trained in what I do.  I would rather see them get some hours where I have some money saved and I know many do not and live pay-pay check   I hope someone takes it.


----------



## Kiti Williams

A friend of mine noted that several people she knows of got terribly sick in late Dec to early Jan.  These got sick and it was a few weeks until they got better, she postulated that the Coronal virus may have gotten here much earlier than we think (USA). and that they were not tested for this virus.  Also, this virus is over 50 years old, so even though this is a new mutation, alot of us have been exposed to it.


----------



## Lin19687

Kiti Williams said:


> A friend of mine noted that several people she knows of got terribly sick in late Dec to early Jan.  These got sick and it was a few weeks until they got better, she postulated that the Coronal virus may have gotten here much earlier than we think (USA). and that they were not tested for this virus.  Also, this virus is over 50 years old, so even though this is a new mutation, alot of us have been exposed to it.



They may have just had the Flu, did they test positive for it? where were they located?


----------



## Jersey Girl

https://dennismichaellynch.com/repo...ottles-of-hand-sanitizer-in-us-photos-videos/

I despise people who take advantage of others.  We should all be helping each other not profiting off this horrific situation.


----------



## Arimara

Jersey Girl said:


> https://dennismichaellynch.com/repo...ottles-of-hand-sanitizer-in-us-photos-videos/
> 
> I despise people who take advantage of others.  We should all be helping each other not profiting off this horrific situation.


I read about this guy a couple of days ago. Whatever happens to him, I have no sympathy. I'm passing this along to sisters as an update. On a side note. I'm glad restaurants are open for pickup/delivery only.


----------



## IrishLass

Jersey Girl said:


> https://dennismichaellynch.com/repo...ottles-of-hand-sanitizer-in-us-photos-videos/
> 
> I despise people who take advantage of others.  We should all be helping each other not profiting off this horrific situation.



That's just sick and wrong! There's another seller on Amazon that needs to have their account taken down. My hubby was looking on Amazon for those packets of vitamin C made by EmergenC that we normally get at our local grocer, but our grocery store is sold out. We normally buy a box of 10-count of the EmergenC ImmunePlus from the grocer for something like $5.00, but someone was selling a box of 10 packets on Amazon for $100.00 yesterday. It's one of the worse kinds of evil on this earth to bulk buy then price gouge much needed health supplies that are in dearth supply.  


IrishLass


----------



## Jersey Girl

IrishLass said:


> That's just sick and wrong! There's another seller on Amazon that needs to have their account taken down. My hubby was looking on Amazon for those packets of vitamin C made by EmergenC that we normally get at our local grocer, but our grocery store is sold out. We normally buy a box of 10-count of the EmergenC ImmunePlus from the grocer for something like $5.00, but someone was selling a box of 10 packets on Amazon for $100.00 yesterday. It's one of the worse kinds of evil on this earth to bulk buy then price gouge much needed health supplies that are in dearth supply.
> 
> 
> IrishLass



It’s horrible.


----------



## Steve85569

My son the chef got laid off today. He will still get his salary BUT the many servers and prep cook will not. 
Portland Oregon currently has a no evict and no shut off for utilities but for how long? 
Both of our daughters work in or with the education system here in the IS and will probably be working remotely soon to isolate.

I am in the "at risk population". This might get personal before long...

Like has been said this is only the beginning. My wife and I live in the "home base" for  the family and we don't need to leave the house for several weeks at a time. Most others need to spend their weekly paychecks to stay afloat.
I am willing to help if and where I can.

Is there an Admin here that is willing to take the project on?


----------



## Claudette Carignan

dibbles said:


> @Claudette Carignan I am so happy for your family. You have received the ultimate gift, and I know you are grateful.  Give us an update when you are able.


I called The hospital earlier this afternoon. Both the electrocardiogram and echocardiogram went well and they have taken him off the ventilator. He’s also off the blood pressure meds. He is alert and responding to everything even more. They are going to try and get him to sit up at the side of the bed and try talking.
I also asked them to explain why the kids and I are not there visiting him. The hospital is on log down because of the covid 19.  I can Call as much as I want to get updates. Once he’s out of the icu I can Drop of his phone and we can face time text or call.


dibbles said:


> @Claudette Carignan I am so happy for your family. You have received the ultimate gift, and I know you are grateful.  Give us an update when you are able.


thank you so much. It truly is a gift of life. My heart breaks for the family that lost a loved one but so thankful that they decide to be an organ donor. Because of that selfless act of kindness my husband has a second chance of life. I will Be forever grateful to them.


----------



## Steve85569

Good news!!!


----------



## Claudette Carignan

Susie said:


> @Claudette Carignan OH, thank God!!!  Praying for your hubby and your family.  You all have a long road to walk.  But at least your hubby will be around to walk it!
> 
> DFW went on state of emergency yesterday morning.  All schools closed for at least two weeks.  Lots of companies sending non-essential personnel home to be paid until April.  Unfortunately, my job requires I be there, as does my husband's.  He works on a military base, so they may close the base to non-essential personnel.  His company will pay him if that happens for a couple of weeks.  If they close my office, I am not going to be paid.  Oh, well.  We shall see what happens.  I refuse to live in fear, though.
> 
> On a side note, if y'all haven't seen the videos of Italians singing from their balconies, grab some tissues and go watch it.  Talk about making the best of a bad situation.


Thank you so much. It’s been a rollercoaster of emotions. But we are so grateful to the person who chose to be an organ donor and our hearts go out to their family.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Claudette Carignan said:


> I called The hospital earlier this afternoon. Both the electrocardiogram and echocardiogram went well and they have taken him off the ventilator. He’s also off the blood pressure meds. He is alert and responding to everything even more. They are going to try and get him to sit up at the side of the bed and try talking.
> I also asked them to explain why the kids and I are not there visiting him. The hospital is on log down because of the covid 19.  I can Call as much as I want to get updates. Once he’s out of the icu I can Drop of his phone and we can face time text or call.
> 
> thank you so much. It truly is a gift of life. My heart breaks for the family that lost a loved one but so thankful that they decide to be an organ donor. Because of that selfless act of kindness my husband has a second chance of life. I will Be forever grateful to them.



This is wonderful news. Prayers for his continued recovery.


----------



## Claudette Carignan

Mobjack Bay said:


> @Claudette Carignan This is the most wonderful news!  You may need to put off the soap making for awhile, but I do hope that you will be able to find time, with the support of family and friends, to occasionally do something for yourself, even if it is just getting outside for a walk in the sunshine.  My ex went through a period of kidney failure and dialysis and then had a transplant from my BIL.  Twelve years since later he is still doing very well.  Donors and donor families are true heros. Giving someone life is truly the ultimate gift.  I am also forever grateful to the doctors, ICU nurses and other members of the team that support families through every step.


Thank you for your kind words. The staff at the ottawa heart institute are truly super heros. We are truly so grateful to the person who made the selfless decision to be an organ donor and keep their family in our thoughts. Their loved one’s legacy will live on in my husband


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@Claudette Carignan I’m so happy to hear that everything went as planned.  It must be difficult to be separated from your husband right now, but it will be GREAT when he gets the cell phone.  Best wishes for his speedy recovery and please keep us posted!


----------



## Claudette Carignan

Mobjack Bay said:


> @Claudette Carignan I’m so happy to hear that everything went as planned.  It must be difficult to be separated from your husband right now, but it will be GREAT when he gets the cell phone.  Best wishes for his speedy recovery and please keep us posted!


It is hard and I ask Them to explain why the kids and I are Not there to visit. They were going to explain things to him this afternoon when they had him sitting up on the side of the bed. My daughter is going to be the one calling this evening S it gives her a feeling of being involved more. I did ask her to call my mother in law first to give her the update. She’s really feeling left out of the loup because my sister in law treats her like a child. The family dynamics is awful with the inlaws. Specifically my sister in-law unfortunatly.  She likes to be in charge. I had To put her in her place and tell her it wasn’t about her. I promised My mother in-law she would be the first to get the update and can call her daughter to give the latest news to her. She was in tears and so thankful that I’m putting her first. my daughter promised that she would call her grandmother before texting me or her brother or anyone else


----------



## bookreader451

NYS just went to only essential workers and under 30 per office.


----------



## elurah

Kiti Williams said:


> A friend of mine noted that several people she knows of got terribly sick in late Dec to early Jan. These got sick and it was a few weeks until they got better, she postulated that the Coronal virus may have gotten here much earlier than we think (USA). and that they were not tested for this virus. Also, this virus is over 50 years old, so even though this is a new mutation, alot of us have been exposed to it.



Just want to clarify on your last point. Coronaviruses are a well known virus that causes colds and we have all been exposed to them. Some of the more well known strains have been infecting humans for 500+ years.  There is some argument that children, because they get coronavirus colds often, have some partial immunity and that is why they are not getting sick.

However,  COVID is part of Group 2B coronaviruses,  known to cause emerging 21st century epidemics as people contract the virus from animal resevoirs and then spread it among other people.  SARS and MERS are in this category, and even within this group COVID-19 is 25% different from SARS, which is huge! The closest known virus to COVID-19 is RaTG13 found in a bat in Yunnan province in 2013. It is 96% identical, which is still a pretty big difference in genetic terms.

That's why the world's population has basically no immunity and we have no validated treatments yet. That being said, Remdesivir, chloroquine, interferon, and Kaletra are all being tested as possibilities.

Source: Ralph Baric's research from UNC


----------



## szaza

I just read that the French authorities strongly advise not to use NSAIDs (like ibuprofen) to treat symptoms of infections with covid-19. Apparently they've worsened the infection in some people. Only paracetamol is advised to use. Thought I'd share since a lot of people self medicate with ibuprofen. (In case someone is interested, here's the link)


----------



## Jersey Girl

szaza said:


> I just read that the French authorities strongly advise not to use NSAIDs (like ibuprofen) to treat symptoms of infections with covid-19. Apparently they've worsened the infection in some people. Only paracetamol is advised to use. Thought I'd share since a lot of people self medicate with ibuprofen. (In case someone is interested, here's the link)



I just read the same thing as I lay here unable to sleep!  I take an 81mg aspirin daily. Ugh!


----------



## Mobjack Bay

If your French is only good enough to order off a menu (like me), here’s an article on the topic in English. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ory-drugs-may-aggravate-coronavirus-infection  In the US paracetamol is sold as Tylenol.


----------



## peepntom

stop being sheep


----------



## MarnieSoapien

France is now under lockdown.  

https://www.thelocal.fr/20200316/lockdown-what-exactly-do-frances-new-coronavirus-rules-mean


----------



## Pamela Carver

Relle said:


> Australia way back when ……… we will be remembering the toilet paper wars of 2020 .


So it's not just in the US?  OMG too funny!


----------



## Arimara

Pamela Carver said:


> So it's not just in the US?  OMG too funny!


We were later to the party.


----------



## sirtim100

Day 3 of the lockdown in Spain. 11,409 cases, 509 deaths. 

Every day is a Sunday. In a country where street life is like oxygen, it feels very weird to see so few people out and about. I've been teleworking for 14 years so no big change there, and a friend does any shopping I might need. He says the supermarkets are fully stocked although they only let in 12 people at a time. People go out onto their balconies at 20:00 every day to applause the healthcare workers, supermarket personnel and all the others out there doing their bit to keep the country running.

Funny to think that a little "creature" of about 0.12 microns in size can bring an entire planet to its knees. Good lesson in humility.

"Vikings" is getting better and better...

Hugs to all and take care


----------



## Kiti Williams

Lin19687 said:


> They may have just had the Flu, did they test positive for it? where were they located?




  They have tested positive for the antibodies for the Conv19 virus.  They took  5 vials of blood from 3 blood types to study.  To know WHEN they got sick is the marker for when it got Here.


----------



## raymondlgraham

The Spanish Flu of 1918 took a toll of 50 million people....That was 3 times the number that died in WWI.  When I graduated from high school in the late 1950's we were having a flu pandemic then.  Flu usually enters the body through an opening in the skin.  We have Seven Natural opening in the Skin on our head.  We may have many more due to cuts or abrasions.  Unless someone sneezes or coughs in your vicinity you can do a lot to protect yourself.  The number one thing you can do is to stay away from large gatherings.  The second thing you can do is to keep your hands away from your head and face if they haven't just been washed for over 20 seconds with good Soap and Water.  If you touch anything after you wash your hands with Soap and Water its a good idea to think you have contaminated them again so they are not safe to touch your face or head with until they have been washed again.  Think like a surgeon in an operating room.  To protect yourself you must be aware of how you can become contaminated.  You need excellent hygiene and a mind that is conscious of your environment.  If you don't use lazy habits during this Pandemic and you observe excellent hygiene you could very well get through all this without being infected.  Another thing I usually remember is:  After you have done all you know to do to protect yourself and your family.  You aren't going to leave this World one second before its your time and your not going to be here one second after its your time.  Knowing this will give a person PEACE within themselves.  And you can't put a price tag on PEACE!  The World will want all of us to jump through a bunch of hoops and over a number of hurtles.  That's the way people act when they don't know what else to do.


----------



## Lin19687

raymondlgraham said:


> The Spanish Flu of 1918 took a toll of 50 million people....That was 3 times the number that died in WWI.  When I graduated from high school in the late 1950's we were having a flu pandemic then.  Flu usually enters the body through an opening in the skin.  We have Seven Natural opening in the Skin on our head.  We may have many more due to cuts or abrasions.  Unless someone sneezes or coughs in your vicinity you can do a lot to protect yourself.  The number one thing you can do is to stay away from large gatherings.  The second thing you can do is to keep your hands away from your head and face if they haven't just been washed for over 20 seconds with good Soap and Water.  If you touch anything after you wash your hands with Soap and Water its a good idea to think you have contaminated them again so they are not safe to touch your face or head with until they have been washed again.  Think like a surgeon in an operating room.  To protect yourself you must be aware of how you can become contaminated.  You need excellent hygiene and a mind that is conscious of your environment.  If you don't use lazy habits during this Pandemic and you observe excellent hygiene you could very well get through all this without being infected.  Another thing I usually remember is:  After you have done all you know to do to protect yourself and your family, remember, GOD is still in control.  You aren't going to leave this World one second before its your time and your not going to be here one second after its your time.  Knowing this will give a person PEACE within themselves.  And you can't put a price tag on PEACE!  The World will want all of us to jump through a bunch of hoops and over a number of hurtles.  That's the way people act when they don't know what else to do.  Maybe we should ask GOD to show us HIS WAY.  Have you seen any of our leaders calling on GOD for his deliverance and protection?  It's a shame we haven't seen that isn't it.  When I was growing up we saw leaders asking for GODS Help in time of trouble.  Now days it seems people think we don't need HIS help anymore.  But regardless of what they think.... We still need GOD's HELP and FORGIVENESS!



Sorry, God is not going to help us now


----------



## raymondlgraham

Lin........ You may feel God isn't going to help us now but He has been helping me get out of bed in the morning for almost 80 years now.  Why on Earth would I think He would stop doing that now?  Once we get to really know Him it surprising what He will do to help those that love and trust Him.


----------



## LilyJo

raymondlgraham said:


> Lin........ You may feel God isn't going to help us now but He has been helping me get out of bed in the morning for almost 80 years now.  Why on Earth would I think He would stop doing that now?  Once we get to really know Him it surprising what He will do to help those that love and trust Him.



Please, this isnt the time or place. I don't want to disparage anyone religious belief but not everyone here believes in a Christian God.


----------



## Susie

I understand that not everyone believes in a Christian God.  But if anyone is allowed to post their beliefs, then all should be allowed to post their beliefs.  Just like Lin did. 

We need to avoid controversy to avoid tearing this group apart, yes.  But beliefs are beliefs.  And as long as no one is attacking anyone else, then they should be allowed to state their beliefs.  

I do think, however, that the admins would prefer that this particular subject be minimized for the comfort of all.


----------



## bookreader451

raymondlgraham said:


> Lin........ You may feel God isn't going to help us now but He has been helping me get out of bed in the morning for almost 80 years now.  Why on Earth would I think He would stop doing that now?  Once we get to really know Him it surprising what He will do to help those that love and trust Him.


Please no theological discussions. This isn't why we are here.  We are here to support each other as soapmakers and people; regardless of country or religion.


----------



## amd

So... I have to start my update with a little funny. I mentioned to my hubby that in TWD you never see them concerned about TP - it's always food, medical, gas, and ammunition (with the random pregnancy test thrown in). He looked at me and said "well, they don't look for it because it was the first thing to go..." He thought he was hilarious, it's taken me a while to come around. Let me know when you get there.

SD currently has 10 cases - I think we are at 1 or 2 deaths (I'm not sure if the one announced is_ in addition to_ the one I already knew about or _is _the one I knew about). Last Friday at noon it was announced that schools would be closed this week - insert mass panic and grocery store rioting as the school closure also closed our city's Boys and Girls Club - where approximately 500 kids are fed daily. This week would have been two days of school and 3 days spring break, so many parents were suddenly having to plan for an extra two days at home for older kids, or making arrangements for five days at home for younger kids. Many daycares are closed, but I have seen quite a few teens posting on FB that they will babysit single families in their own home. Today it was announced that school closure will continue for next week as well. I will be creating a school plan for the kids so they are not sleeping until noon and gaming/watching TV the entire time. They'll be thrilled. Our library has initiated a curbside delivery for book checkout. Unfortunately our grocery stores are not doing online delivery - although I wonder if that is more because empty shelves makes it hard to fill orders properly and not because they're jerkfaces. Many restaurants are cutting their seating to half. The taproom is only open for growler fills, no seating. The coffee shops are doing takeout only. Many of our small businesses are adjusting and find ways to make things work. As my boss at the restuarant said... "as long as people are able to make their incomes, we would be foolish not to adjust." 

So far hubby and I have been fortunate that we both work engineering type jobs, which allows us to work semi-isolated and practice social distancing. For once being an introvert might be a good thing... Our household has been put on social distancing protocol, and I am increasing everyone's hygiene practices, cleaning schedules, and health supplements. I have an autoimmune disease in remission, so I am taking extra supplements (because of course this would be the time that work blows up and increases my stress x10) as well as making some minor tweaks to my diet to improve probiotic intake - hello homemade yogurt and kombucha!


----------



## Ash

what liquids are ppl using to soap???? Because I didn’t believe the funk because... well im already a shut in. Went to get water and its only this sport water at my local store.


----------



## bookreader451

Ash said:


> what liquids are ppl using to soap???? Because I didn’t believe the funk because... well im already a shut in. Went to get water and its only this sport water at my local store.


I suggested aloe juice earlier.  Walmart stocks it and I bet there hasn't been a run on it yet.  Find it near pharmacy with the vitamins and supplements


----------



## shunt2011

I use coconut milk in a can, canned goats milk works as does powdered.   Some use vinegar.  Beer, coffee.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Kiti Williams said:


> They have tested positive for the antibodies for the Conv19 virus.  They took  5 vials of blood from 3 blood types to study.  To know WHEN they got sick is the marker for when it got Here.


Can you tell us what part of the country they were in?


----------



## moodymama

Ash said:


> what liquids are ppl using to soap???? Because I didn’t believe the funk because... well im already a shut in. Went to get water and its only this sport water at my local store.



You can distill your own water at home using a pot a rack a bowl and the pot lid. Many dutch ovens have a basting lid, if you don't have one of them you can turn the pot lid upside down so the evaporated water can drip down into the bowl.


----------



## Lin19687

Massachusetts is up to 218 confirmed cases 

One of the restaurants I work at (nationwide store, widely known) is trying take out today since seating/bar all closed today across Mass.  Everyone thinks they will keep that going. 
I can tell you for a fact.......... it will not, and I have a bet that take-out ends by thursday/friday.

All our roads are almost empty when driving during "rush hour", eerily quiet.
Mall just about empty, major mall stores (Macy's, Jordan Furniture, Nordstrom, Bloomingdale's, Apple).  Quick google search and here is a News channel that lists more.
https://kfor.com/news/major-retail-stores-closing-adjusting-hours-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

Please, if you take Medications, call your Dr and see if they can call in an extra script for a month just in case.
I have one stop tomorrow to do just that as I am just about out of my Thyroid meds   Just occurred to me this afternoon.  I have refills remaining and called the Pharmacy to see if they could fill it early and they said come tomorrow as they didn't have time today.  I was very thank full for their understanding and able to do that for me.


----------



## Misschief

I had a Dr. appointment last Friday as my prescriptions were running out. I now have enough on hand for two months with four months still available on the script, so I'm good there. At work, the week has been really slow so my boss has asked my co-worker and me to work half days for the time being. He'll take the mornings (8:30 - 1:00) and I'll work 12:30 - 5:00 as it's me who does the cash out at the end of the day. Two co-workers have been temporarily laid off as they will be in self-isolation for two weeks. I do not work directly with these two co-workers, thankfully; they're in our production shop, off site. However, both have been travelling, one out of country and the other has been in crowded areas, including a ferry so they've been asked to self monitor.

As of this afternoon, our town has 7 confirmed cases. It's getting real, real fast!


----------



## Relle

Please stick to the topic at hand and leave religion of any sort out of the discussion.


----------



## Susie

By the way, about the ibuprofen and coronavirus posted above, here's the truth:

https://www.bbc.com/news/51929628

Please, people, for the love of all that's soapy, check your facts before posting.  Speaking as someone who is allergic to Tylenol/acetaminophen/paracetamol, I just about had a fit trying to prove or disprove that.  Ibuprofen is my go-to for all pain relief and fever relief.


----------



## szaza

Susie said:


> By the way, about the ibuprofen and coronavirus posted above, here's the truth:
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/51929628
> 
> Please, people, for the love of all that's soapy, check your facts before posting.  Speaking as someone who is allergic to Tylenol/acetaminophen/paracetamol, I just about had a fit trying to prove or disprove that.  Ibuprofen is my go-to for all pain relief and fever relief.



I feel this message is directed towards me.. my source was the French ministry of health's guidelines for health care professionals, so I did check my source/facts and I linked to the website. I know most people on here don't speak French, but I hadn't found a reputable English source yet. 
I merely posted to remind people not to self medicate with ibuprofen and similar drugs, especially these days (which at least in my surroundings a lot of people do, even though ibuprofen is officially a prescription drug). I also specified that it was for treatment of the symptoms of covid-19 that prescription of NSAIDS was discouraged. I thought it obvious that medical treatment should not be started or stopped without consulting a medical doctor, but maybe I should have specified or maybe this is not the place for medical info. I thought about that for a bit before posting, but felt it might be useful for a wider public to know, exactly because so many people self medicate with these kind of drugs.


----------



## Noreen Moore

I just survived my 1st hospital layoff. My company just slashed in half one of our hospitals services! NOW!!! NOW they want to ressurect this half closed hospital and turn it into a Covid-19 specialty hospital!!!!! As this hospital owns a TON of ventilators! 
Who are they going to get to work there??? WHO? They already transitioned the staff into new roles! Majority of the nurses and doctors I know are scared dookyless over this virus!
My position is a system float nurse! That will be ME getting pulled to the front lines! 
Not to keen on this idea! Not at all.
I am very happy this new passion of soap making! Soap is very needed at this time! 
So my fellow soapers, get to work!!!! 
Wash your hands! Stay healthy! 
And I am willing and able to help members that maybe out of work! 
Reach out! 
Spread love! Not viruses!

errr... Get to work meant MAKE MORE SOAP!!!


----------



## shunt2011

So funny how it differs from one place to the other.  Our nurses and physicians are taking the proper precautions and just going with the flow.  No drama at all working hard to take care of patients and themselves.

I've made the decision to continue to work at the hospital rather than remote should my residents need me.


----------



## moodymama

Relle said:


> Please stick to the topic at hand and leave religion of any sort out of the discussion.


I hadn't meant to put that, I think it was stuck in the reply box even though I thought I had taken it out  and when I replied to someone else it was still there.


----------



## Kiti Williams

Mobjack Bay said:


> Can you tell us what part of the country they were in?



  New York City.  2 are world commuters {yes, China} due to their work.  Close family got it from them.


----------



## Kari Howie

Relle said:


> Please stick to the topic at hand and leave religion of any sort out of the discussion.


With all due respect, Relle, I disagree. Christians have been commissioned (commanded) by God Himself to share God’s word and pray that the world turns to Jesus. With social distancing and closed churches, I find no offense, and in fact am comforted, in folks who share the good news and hope of God in any forum. In fact it shows how critical it is now more than ever.  Indeed, I am thankful that we have an internet by which to do this. I expect I will continue to infuse all my speech anywhere my voice is heard or written, with the word of God as is expected of me.



LilyJo said:


> Please, this isnt the time or place. I don't want to disparage anyone religious belief but not everyone here believes in a Christian God.


But there are many who do believe in God and I will not erase Him from my words.


----------



## shunt2011

This is a soap making forum and not a religious form.  Same reason we don't allow politics.  Everyone is entitled to what they believe and pray to whom/whatever entity they so choose or don't.  However, this is not the place for it.


----------



## Lin19687

Anyone else watch NY Gov Cuomo talk ?  I like him.



Kari Howie said:


> With all due respect, Relle, I disagree. Christians have been commissioned (commanded) by God Himself to share God’s word and pray that the world turns to Jesus. With social distancing and closed churches, I find no offense, and in fact am comforted, in folks who share the good news and hope of God in any forum. In fact it shows how critical it is now more than ever.  Indeed, I am thankful that we have an internet by which to do this. I expect I will continue to infuse all my speech anywhere my voice is heard or written, with the word of God as is expected of me.
> But there are many who do believe in God and I will not erase Him from my words.



It is not asked to Erase him from your words, just don't do it here.  Just find a religious forum for that, there are plenty.

2 things not to discuss at a dinner party to keep the peace, Politics and Religion


----------



## Nanette

Everyone is scared to some degree...we hold dear to that which comforts us......


----------



## StormyK

Ontario is officially in an emergency state (as of yesterday). Schools and daycare centres have already been shut down for a week now, but the closures have extended now to all licensed daycares, libraries, community centers, theaters of all kinds, indoor rec centers, and restaurants (take out/delivery is allowed).  Any gathering over 50 people are banned. Malls are either closed or operating on reduced hours and most banks have only a few key locations still open. Grocery stores are hit or miss depending on the regions. My region seems particularly bad with all paper products, most root veg, bread, sugar, flour, canned veg/fruit, soup, frozen veg, rice, beans / legumes, eggs, beef, ground meats, and milk all being in extremely short supply or gone entirely. 

Thankfully, we have a small pantry that I keep decently well stocked and have been able to fill/expand the pantry so that, in combination with a meal delivery service we subscribe to (3x weekly), we should be good for easily 2-3 weeks before variety starts to wane. I also buy into a CSA (Community Shared Agriculture) program every summer so if this continues for a few months we'll have a weekly supply of fresh veg starting in May. Something people may want to look into... it might not be too late if interested (*support local farmers!* lol).

Honestly what scares me most these days isn't actually the virus, but rather the economic outfall of all this... 
My sisters are both already laid off. My husband and I, while still employed and working remotely (thankfully) will likely be on reduced hours soon... and I'd expect he, at least, will end up laid off as he's in manufacturing (purchasing).


----------



## Nanette

I went to two stores today, Frys and Costco--didnt even go in Costco as the line was loooong And they were out of dry dogfood, which is what I wanted. Frys had no bread, no flour, no meats...lunchmeats and pnut butter all gone....well, hopefully things will calm down and the stores can get reasonably stocked again--no paper products at all, no clorox.


----------



## bookreader451

Our workplace just went to 50% by order of the governor.  I go in for 4 hours, 8-12 and get paid for 8.  Not unhappy but I wanted to work from home.


----------



## shunt2011

It is getting scary and unfortunately it will get much worse before it gets better.  

We’ve just had our first death in Michigan in our hospital system.

  We need to remember to be kind, reach out to those who don’t have anyone and check on our elderly. 

I’ve been giving out sanitizer to those who can’t find it. I received a gallon and have been bottling it into 1 and 2 ounces.

  I’m still going to work and have offered to help wherever they need it.  I work for the ER.  Not enough tests or testing facilities in the state.  

I sent my daughter and grandkids 3 hours north to my parents where there is a much much  smaller population so less risk. I’ve been told I can’t go as there’s a possibility I’ve been exposed though feeling fine.  The panic is real here as many other places.  
I’m well stocked for the most part so I just go to work then home.


----------



## GML

I'm in Michigan as well.  I've decided to stay away from most of the local tv station websites, they are doing nothing to help the situation. 
I also managed to pick up some items at Costco yesterday; I arrived before the store opened and the line went past the width of the building. By the time I got in the store people were already leaving with their giant packs of toilet paper. I will say one thing about this entire shitfest - people are being polite and courteous to each other. I hope that part stays when all of this ends.


----------



## DeeAnna

Noreen Moore said:


> I just survived my 1st hospital layoff. My company just slashed in half one of our hospitals services! NOW!!! NOW they want to ressurect this half closed hospital and turn it into a Covid-19 specialty hospital!!!!!....



Huh. I live in northeast Iowa about 1/2 hour from the Minnesota border. There was a Mayo clinic in our county seat of Waukon. This clinic closed this past December, causing quite an uproar in the community and surrounding area.

DH came home tonight and said he'd heard scuttlebutt that Mother Mayo is going to turn the empty clinic building in Waukon into an intensive care unit for covid victims. Sounds quite familiar to your story.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Noreen Moore said:


> I just survived my 1st hospital layoff. My company just slashed in half one of our hospitals services! NOW!!! NOW they want to ressurect this half closed hospital and turn it into a Covid-19 specialty hospital!!!!! As this hospital owns a TON of ventilators!
> Who are they going to get to work there??? WHO? They already transitioned the staff into new roles! Majority of the nurses and doctors I know are scared dookyless over this virus!
> My position is a system float nurse! That will be ME getting pulled to the front lines!
> Not to keen on this idea! Not at all.
> I am very happy this new passion of soap making! Soap is very needed at this time!
> So my fellow soapers, get to work!!!!
> Wash your hands! Stay healthy!
> And I am willing and able to help members that maybe out of work!
> Reach out!
> Spread love! Not viruses!
> 
> errr... Get to work meant MAKE MORE SOAP!!!



If I were you I would not take an assignment like that having a heart transplant patient at home. They should understand this and put you in a different role. That’s scary as all hell.


----------



## Lin19687

Oh man I forgot to get Flour at Costco.  Course not sure I NEED 25# of flour   My bread machine is good but my bread is not the greatest so I am not sure I would want to Give any away lol


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Virginia has three hotspots for cases of COVID-19. Over the course of a week we went from having a few isolated cases in Virginia to a situation where there is only one person between me and a confirmed positive case. I’ve been telecommuting since Monday afternoon, but it looks like I should have started at least a week or two earlier. I’m having to work hard to keep my brain from running probability calculations.


----------



## Steve85569

Stay calm.
Follow clean habits. Wash often. Cleanliness is next to nothing. It is it's own reward.
Eat healthy foods.
Get enough rest. 
Follow your belief system whatever that is.
Practice random acts of kindness especially in these stressful times.
Now is when we should be sharing what we can with one another without counting the cost ( you don't owe me for this).
This is NOT the time for transactional or divisive relationships.

This is of course just my humble opinion.
Steve


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I read the article at this link. https://www.bbc.com/news/51929628 that is referenced above.  It includes the statements I pasted in below.  I added the bold for emphasis.  No strong evidence does not mean no evidence, plus there are two statements recommending the use of paracetamol, with one adding not to if your doctor advises against it. Out of an abundance of caution, and given that I have no allergies to it, I will probably stick with Tylenol for now. 

 “there is currently no *strong* evidence that ibuprofen can make coronavirus (Covid-19) worse... until we have more information, take paracetamol to treat the symptoms of coronavirus, unless your doctor has told you paracetamol is not suitable for you.”

“Although we don't yet know whether ibuprofen has a particular effect on the severity or length of illnesses caused by coronavirus - either in healthy people or those with underlying conditions - Dr Charlotte Warren-Gash, of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, says, especially for vulnerable patients, "it seems sensible to stick to paracetamol as first choice".

”There is also some evidence linking ibuprofen to more severe illness from other respiratory infections.”


----------



## Millie

It's been a bit of a rough day here in New York. Over 3000 infected now. It is just the beginning of course, but the reality of it only hits us in stages. All our friend and family gatherings have been canceled for the next 45 days or so, and we know that in reality the whole summer will pass before we can gather again. It is hard to think that some might not be here for the next one.
I struggle with feeling isolated through winters always, as we live out in the countryside, but there is always some gathering to look forward to which keeps us sane. It was a cold day today with nothing to look forward to, and when I took my walk in the woods someone I couldn't see was screaming for me to go away, which was scary, because everyone out here has guns (except for us). I'll chear up again tomorrow. Hope you are all doing ok.

P.s. We ran out of tests locally, but in the morning news they said anyone without a fever was refused a test. So maybe take the pain meds after testing.


----------



## BattleGnome

My MiL is laid off for the duration which is not surprising, she works in a salon with many of the clients being retired and having health issues. Sucks because tips make up most of her income but I’m happy she will be able to lessen her exposure (turning 60 this year with several underlying heath issues).

the issue I’m having processing is the (retired) owner, his (still working) wife, and daughter and now inviting people into their home so that everyone’s hair can be pretty for quarantine. This is an essential service, right? This man has more health issues than I can count (parents were first cousins and it shows) and has worst hygiene I have ever seen. I’m pretty sure his hands only get washed in the shower (but since retirement I can only guess if he still showers regularly), always chews with his mouth open, never covers his mouth when he coughs... he’s going to be patient zero and infect the whole town. 

Is there a hotline or something yet?


----------



## Deb Walker

Years ago I read a paper by a doctor who researches historical disease.  I can't remember who it was or all the details but they found that the death rate of the Spanish Flu  increased dramatically when the treatment was changed.  US army doctors increased aspirin dose and that became the normal treatment.  Case notes show obvious cases of aspirin overdose.  So many died after the worst of their flu of aspirin induced pneumonia and classic overdose symptoms/complications.  It was estimated 5 out of 8 deaths were due to aspirin overdose. Found that interesting.

With this virus there are some simple things we can do to boost our immune system that can reduce severity and length of illness for the average person.  In the mean time I just need to find some flour and loo paper.


----------



## GML

For some, social media distancing is a good thing to follow.


----------



## ShirleyHailstock

shunt2011 said:


> So funny how it differs from one place to the other.  Our nurses and physicians are taking the proper precautions and just going with the flow.  No drama at all working hard to take care of patients and themselves.
> 
> I've made the decision to continue to work at the hospital rather than remote should my residents need me.


Thank you for being on the front lines. I'm not in health care. I used to work for two giant healtcare companies, but we made the drugs and sold them to hospitals, clinics and doctor's offices.


----------



## Rick Jarvis

From the who knows for sure file. I saw a news article saying most of the Palm Oil production was being severely curtailed for an indefinite period.I ordered some a couple of days ago but who knows.?


----------



## shunt2011

Rick Jarvis said:


> From the who knows for sure file. I saw a news article saying most of the Palm Oil production was being severely curtailed for an indefinite period.I ordered some a couple of days ago but who knows.?



There was another post about this the other day.


----------



## GML

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...es-world-vegoil-supply-concerns-idUSKBN2150W7

I did a quick search. Seems that Malaysia is in production.


----------



## sirtim100

Day 4 of the lockdown in Spain. The figures keep rising, as is only to be expected. The government and opposition have united to deal with the problem, and the general tonic is one of "we'll get through this if we stick together". At 20:00 every day everyone goes out onto their balconies to applaud. Last night in my street there was a bagpipe player, saxophonist, DJ and percussionist all doing impromptu concerts, and receiving shouts of encouragement and applause. 

I started with a sore throat a couple of days ago, and have a slight headache, but temperature is fine and there's no fatigue. Talked to a medic who said it could be a flare-up of my COPD and not to worry, but if things change, off to A&E in a hurry. Phoned the hospital to see if things were overloaded there, and the receptionist laughed and said "every once in a while", but her attitude was very much one of don't worry, if you need help, here we are, which goes against the recent media-generated hysteria of collapsing health systems. 

Seems like the virus is now spreading big time in the US. If so, please take my advice and one or two suggestions: don't get unnecessarily scared, ease up on the bad news, it'll only make you feel worse. This is not going to be eternal and try as I might, I can't see the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse anywhere. So perhaps a bit more calm might be in order...

Follow reputable websites. There's a lot of nonsense out there. And follow the self-care instructions.

As for belief or faith, each to his own, I'd say. Have yet to see any stipulations in this forum regarding expressions of personal belief or creed. If there are, do let me know. In the meantime, as the most venerable @KiwiMoose says, "Be kind, for everyone is fighting a hard battle". Maybe some members ought to make an effort to remember that. These days it's more important than ever.

In the meantime, now finishing season 3 of Vikings, it just gets better and better, to the extent that I'm praying to not get any bug till I've seen every last episode. It's as good a reason as any.

Take care, all of you, big hugs and encouragement, and happy soaping.


----------



## Nanette

sirtim100 said:


> Day 4 of the lockdown in Spain. The figures keep rising, as is only to be expected. The government and opposition have united to deal with the problem, and the general tonic is one of "we'll get through this if we stick together". At 20:00 every day everyone goes out onto their balconies to applaud. Last night in my street there was a bagpipe player, saxophonist, DJ and percussionist all doing impromptu concerts, and receiving shouts of encouragement and applause.
> 
> I started with a sore throat a couple of days ago, and have a slight headache, but temperature is fine and there's no fatigue. Talked to a medic who said it could be a flare-up of my COPD and not to worry, but if things change, off to A&E in a hurry. Phoned the hospital to see if things were overloaded there, and the receptionist laughed and said "every once in a while", but her attitude was very much one of don't worry, if you need help, here we are, which goes against the recent media-generated hysteria of collapsing health systems.
> 
> Seems like the virus is now spreading big time in the US. If so, please take my advice and one or two suggestions: don't get unnecessarily scared, ease up on the bad news, it'll only make you feel worse. This is not going to be eternal and try as I might, I can't see the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse anywhere. So perhaps a bit more calm might be in order...
> 
> Follow reputable websites. There's a lot of nonsense out there. And follow the self-care instructions.
> 
> As for belief or faith, each to his own, I'd say. Have yet to see any stipulations in this forum regarding expressions of personal belief or creed. If there are, do let me know. In the meantime, as the most venerable @KiwiMoose says, "Be kind, for everyone is fighting a hard battle". Maybe some members ought to make an effort to remember that. These days it's more important than ever.
> 
> In the meantime, now finishing season 3 of Vikings, it just gets better and better, to the extent that I'm praying to not get any bug till I've seen every last episode. It's as good a reason as any.
> 
> Take care, all of you, big hugs and encouragement, and happy soaping.


Thanks for the encouragement!!


----------



## Kiti Williams

sirtim100 said:


> Day 4 of the lockdown in Spain. The figures keep rising, as is only to be expected. The government and opposition have united to deal with the problem, and the general tonic is one of "we'll get through this if we stick together". At 20:00 every day everyone goes out onto their balconies to applaud. Last night in my street there was a bagpipe player, saxophonist, DJ and percussionist all doing impromptu concerts, and receiving shouts of encouragement and applause.
> 
> I started with a sore throat a couple of days ago, and have a slight headache, but temperature is fine and there's no fatigue. Talked to a medic who said it could be a flare-up of my COPD and not to worry, but if things change, off to A&E in a hurry. Phoned the hospital to see if things were overloaded there, and the receptionist laughed and said "every once in a while", but her attitude was very much one of don't worry, if you need help, here we are, which goes against the recent media-generated hysteria of collapsing health systems.
> 
> Seems like the virus is now spreading big time in the US. If so, please take my advice and one or two suggestions: don't get unnecessarily scared, ease up on the bad news, it'll only make you feel worse. This is not going to be eternal and try as I might, I can't see the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse anywhere. So perhaps a bit more calm might be in order...
> 
> Follow reputable websites. There's a lot of nonsense out there. And follow the self-care instructions.
> 
> As for belief or faith, each to his own, I'd say. Have yet to see any stipulations in this forum regarding expressions of personal belief or creed. If there are, do let me know. In the meantime, as the most venerable @KiwiMoose says, "Be kind, for everyone is fighting a hard battle". Maybe some members ought to make an effort to remember that. These days it's more important than ever.
> 
> In the meantime, now finishing season 3 of Vikings, it just gets better and better, to the extent that I'm praying to not get any bug till I've seen every last episode. It's as good a reason as any.
> 
> Take care, all of you, big hugs and encouragement, and happy soaping.




  Thank you the positive world view.  Sometimes we get so focused that we don't see how there could be any good in a situation.  Can't see the forest for the trees.  I need to go and get some groceries today, I will report back how the shelves look here in Philly.


----------



## jjaded

Lin19687 said:


> Oh man I forgot to get Flour at Costco.  Course not sure I NEED 25# of flour   My bread machine is good but my bread is not the greatest so I am not sure I would want to Give any away lol



http://www.dinnerwithjulie.com/recipe/julia-childs-white-sandwich-bread/

I can't bake , but I can successfully make that every time. I've even gotten to the point where I can add different things to it, like wheat flours or seeds. And my family devours it so fast that I have to make double batches lol.


----------



## raymondlgraham

This is indeed a soap making forum but if my understanding of soap making is correct, it doesn't have anything to do with Covid 19 either.  When we are going about our daily lives its good for our mental health not to have tunnel vision.  So, saying something that might give another person a bit of comfort or peace of mind isn't necessarily a bad thing in my book.  I even rejoice in the suds this comment might make.   LOL  Yes, this is a time for lots of soap to be available.  Your doing a good thing by fulfilling that need.

I am not a medical doctor but I have been a student of health for many years.  One of the reasons doctors advise against giving  ibuprofen to someone who is running a fever with a virus is....The high fever is what helps to kill the virus.  By taking ibuprofen to lower the temperature your working against your bodies immune system that's trying to eliminate the virus. 
Virus's operate inside the cells of our body and that is what makes antibiotics ineffective against them.  The antibiotics can't get into the cell to knock out the virus but heat can.  If the virus causes the body temperature to get too high then medical people will try to lower it to some degree so it doesn't fry your brain.  Now bacteria travel in the blood stream and antibiotics do too.  That's why they can be effective against bacteria.  They can reach them.


----------



## Dahila

I had to cut out a week of my vacation.  I wanted to come to Canada,  anyway here is my home and I am kind of protected .  Over there I would have to pay for medical care,  I am in high risk group. I had ten days of sighting , then every thing was closed .  
I am not sure I did enjoy the experience,  my family was freaking out did not let me go for a walk in park No matter how explained that beautiful weather and  sun will bust the immune response


----------



## Lin19687

GML said:


> For some, social media distancing is a good thing to follow.



This is not 'For Some' this should be FOR ALL.

People need to understand that you don't need to be Showing Signs of Symptoms to contaminate others or Things<---- this is a biggie people.  This thing lives on surfaces for a LONG TIME and in the Air for (IIRC) 4-6 hours.  It is not 100% known the full facts on this.

Stay home, eat well, SLEEP VERY WELL.  It is about the only thing we can do to Stop the spread.  If EVERY STATE did this we all will be better off for it.


----------



## tammy sue starks

Obsidian said:


> I'm a bit paranoid but I also have health related anxiety. I've been prep shopping for the last few days.
> I should have enough food easily for a extended quarantine. Just gotta stock up on pet food and meds now.
> At least I have plenty of soap, lol.


My family has been laughing at me because when I get bored I soap of course! I have my little town of 5000 people covered for soap, laundry soap, dish soap, and shampoo bars lol. We have plenty of food as well. Stay healthy


----------



## StormyK

Lin19687 said:


> This is not 'For Some' this should be FOR ALL.



@Lin19687 - I think you missed the "social media" part of GML's message... Maybe read a little more closely before chastising. 

People not taking the time to fully read / understand what is being written / said is usually at least partially at fault when it comes to a general lack of understanding.


----------



## amd

tammy sue starks said:


> My family has been laughing at me because when I get bored I soap of course!


I have jokingly told my husband for years that during the zombie apocalypse we will be the cleanest people around. I didn't think I would be right...

For the most part stores here are staying somewhat well stocked, depending on which day and time you go shopping - oh and where. WalMart looks good in the meat, produce and bread aisles, but the non-perishables are pretty bare, whereas grocery stores are well stocked in pretty much everything except TP and bread. The second oldest son works at the grocery by our house, so he was able to tell me when the trucks are scheduled and when they stock shelves, so I went grocery shopping yesterday at noon and was able to get everything on my list except bread, which hubby found at WalMart. Also interesting that when son came home from work he said that the TP truck didn't arrive until yesterday, and within 2 hours it was all gone. They didn't even get it on the shelves, people were taking it out of boxes.

I did have a funny chat with the bag boy, he's very worried about this "food shortage". It isn't a food shortage, there's plenty of food, there's just a supply and demand issue - the supplies were not there to meet the increased demand, which has come from hundreds of children suddenly having to be fed at home rather than being fed in school and other child care systems (typically our boys and girls club will host around 500 children daily during spring break, where they're fed breakfast, lunch, snack and dinner). Also consider that many who work in industries that would be greatest affected by forced quarantines are preparing for when they no longer have money to buy food because they have no income. My sister owns a restaurant, and as they shift to reduced seating, take out only, etc, she is also preparing for herself at home for the day she can't open the restaurant at all. She'll be without money so she's preparing now while she does have money. If I were dependent on this type of income (or even a single income source), this is exactly how I would be thinking and preparing for as well. 

I'm trying to be a reasonable person and allow those who have the need get what they need first, but at the same time, I am going to start building our pantry in moderation with non-perishables. There won't be hoarding, there won't be panic runs to the store. 

My dad has been quarantined due to an outbreak with the other drivers he works with (he drives milk truck). I am moving to work from home status beginning next week due to being a Level 3 health risk (forced by my employer). We will continue social distancing ourselves, and continue with good health practices.



StormyK said:


> @Lin19687 - I think you missed the "social media" part of GML's message... Maybe read a little more closely before chastising.


I think you missed Lin's meaning. She didn't miss anything. She does indeed mean that ALL of us should be distancing ourselves from social media. I personally have seen more "fake news" than actual real news on social media and it's disturbing.


----------



## bookreader451

I had a furloughed (with pay) coworker call about her check.  She said her friend's daughter was tested but no results yet.  She had been with both.  I told her she needed to self-isolate and her reply was, "I am going to pay my bills then go home."  She isn't grasping she has to STAY HOME.  

I didn't let her in the office, I put the check under the door.

I also scored some, made in NY by inmates, hand sanitizer.


----------



## Lin19687

StormyK said:


> @Lin19687 - I think you missed the "social media" part of GML's message... Maybe read a little more closely before chastising.


You are correct, I did miss the media wording.  My apologizes 
Although I am unsure why they wrote what they wrote as they didn't quote a particular person they were referring to.
Maybe I was thinking they just meant social distancing



amd said:


> I think you missed Lin's meaning. She didn't miss anything. She does indeed mean that ALL of us should be distancing ourselves from social media. I personally have seen more "fake news" than actual real news on social media and it's disturbing.



Actually I did miss the Media part but must have thought they just meant social distancing .  I did mean Distancing ourselves from others.  I am still surprised that many states have not done this like the ones that have.  Mine has and others have when they see the numbers start to grow.  By the time other states do this they too will have higher numbers.  It just makes sense, it will keep the older/medical issued people safer, and all safer.
Media is good so long as it IS from Credible outlets.  It keeps us informed and if we are correctly informed then we can make better decisions


----------



## moodymama

Lin19687 said:


> This is not 'For Some' this should be FOR ALL.
> 
> People need to understand that you don't need to be Showing Signs of Symptoms to contaminate others or Things<---- this is a biggie people.  This thing lives on surfaces for a LONG TIME and in the Air for (IIRC) 4-6 hours.  It is not 100% known the full facts on this.
> 
> Stay home, eat well, SLEEP VERY WELL.  It is about the only thing we can do to Stop the spread.  If EVERY STATE did this we all will be better off for it.


 They said "social media distancing" not sure we can get people  sick with the virus on FB. xD


----------



## StormyK

@Lin19687 - I'm also surprised that fewer states / places haven't put stronger social distancing rules in place... and that in those areas that *have* put social distancing principles in place there are still people who are balking at the idea or outright ignoring it!

Ontario put fairly strict social distancing practices in place over a week ago and went into a 'state of emergency' earlier this week when we still had under 200 confirmed cases. That same night I received a message from a friend asking if I still wanted to play ball-hockey this upcoming weekend....  Seriously? Have you listened to no news source of any kind in the past week!?

Either way, people be crazy.

And for what it's worth, I also think more people could do with a little more social media distancing as well.


----------



## MGM

I'm enjoying reading all of your reports, because my experience has been totally different. Last Wednesday, my wife and kids and I went to an all-inclusive in Cancun Mexico with my parents. At that time, we surmised I would probably work from home the next day in case I wanted to sleep in ;-) By the next day, schools had closed for the next 3 weeks. The day after, universities closed, moving everything online (my entire job is online education in a university, so I knew I'd be busy). We followed Canadian news and CNN as things grew more and more alarming, but as our trip was only one week long, we didn't think it necessary to try to move up our departure date. The resort wasn't talking about anything that might put a damper on the festivities, but you could see the crowds thinning out as fewer people arrived. They started closing restaurants and there weren't as many staff; many who were there had nothing to do with the smaller numbers. By the time we flew out yesterday afternoon, the flight attendants were wearing masks and gloves, and made an announcement that they were "honouring their contracts by showing up for work" but they were putting their and our health first and would offer limited service. I'll say it was limited: on a 4-hour flight, we each got a glass of water and that was it. The announcement also referred to the flight as a "repatriation" flight. We got out in time, though, hours before the Canadian government started screening to not let people "with symptoms" on flights. I looked at my sunburned little guy and wondered what temperature an IR thermometer would read on his little forehead....
Anyway, we're on a 14-day self-isolation, leaving only to walk the dog. Friends are dropping off groceries, and we will not be in any public spaces for the next two weeks, so I can't even report how bad the TP situation is.
My unit is very well set up to work from home and the demand is HUGE ("hi can we put the final two weeks of hundreds of courses online? ok great. what about all of our final exams? oh and also, we're still going ahead with the Spring term in May, right? except it'll be 100% online...and if this keeps going, we need all of our fall courses online too....") so I have no fear of job security. Just need something to keep the kids busy...maybe they should try soaping?


----------



## KiwiMoose

28 confirmed cases in NZ - ALL from people coming in via air.  So the Prime Minister has, since yesterday, closed our borders to non NZ residents.  Those citizens that are returning home for overseas have to self-isolate for 14 days.  We've had no community transmissions reported at all, only these cases that have 'arrived' in the country.  The PM is trying to nip it in the bud now - as we can see how quickly it has spread in other countries.  We have a national health website set up with all information required so that people have the facts.


----------



## msunnerstood

So thankful for the ignore button. 

As to the Topic, Cases in my state have doubled each day for the last 2 days, and this morning, hit both of my neighboring counties. I have a high risk person in my household and I caught what I think is a bad cold last Friday so not only am I quarantining myself to my house, but to my room as well because my husband cannot get sick (Immunosuppressants). Have lots of soap here but also lysoling surfaces I touch to try and keep this cold from him.


----------



## DKing

My family is doing as well as can be expected, considering the events happening in the world currently.  I had begun to become concerned about the covid 19 virus once I saw it was starting to spread beyond China and saw the numbers in countries such as Italy and South Korea starting to rise, so about mid Feb I started adding little extras to my grocery shopping list.  I told my husband that if I was wrong and this all blew over, that the worst thing that happened was that I would have less shopping to do for a couple of months as our basics would be covered.  Fortunately due to my pre purchases, I have been able to avoid for the most part the frantic frenzied shopping that has been going on for the last couple of weeks.  I go out early mornings and shop smaller stores to get fresh vegetable, but that is all I really need currently.  They are usually not too crowded compared to the larger chain stores so I feel more comfortable being there.  
My husband is working from home now, as of yesterday, although he has not been back to work since last week.  His co-worker returned from California this weekend and was supposed to go into quarantine for 2 weeks as a precaution, but he refused and insisted on working.  We have immune compromised people in my family and so my husband refused to go to work.  Head office found out that the co-worker was working and insisted he not be there for 2 weeks, so he was sent home and he is now implying my husband was the one who ratted on him.  (passive aggressive facebook post)  It was not my husband who called head office, but I sure am happy someone did.  We all need to follow the rules and safety guidelines to prevent potential spread of this disease even if it comes at an inconvenience.  
My daughter and her boyfriend are now sick.  Might just be a flu, but who knows.  Getting testing is nearly impossible so I am sure unless they develop symptoms that require hospitalization they will never know for sure.  Both have been told by their employers to stay home for 2 weeks.  My daughter is being paid, but her boyfriend just started a new job and is not.  Both live cheque to cheque as it is, so this will be extremely difficult for them.  I have already delivered about 2 weeks+ of groceries and supplies to them so that they have no reason to leave their suite currently and potentially endanger anyone who might be compromised.  I have another big care package for them that I will deliver to their door when I am sure we will be going into a lockdown situation and they are finishing up what they have already.  It should keep them going for another month if they don't go on a binge fest.  I just hope that at the end of this, my husband will still have a job to go to as there is so much that is still unknown of what will be the full outcome of this all.  Some businesses will for sure not make it through even short shut downs. 
I am feeling grateful to be in a position where we can be home and isolate ourselves fairly well to remove a lot of our risks.  I feel such compassion for the people who will not have that luxury.  I can see it on the faces of some of our grocery clerks, that they are feeling the stress....partially from dealing with the intense panic shopping going on and dealing with angry customers snapping at them because some shelves are bare, and partially from having to be around so many people when we are being told to self isolate as much as possible.  I sure hope the stores give them a bonus with all the profit they are making from this madness as they will have earned it.  I am also worried about all the people in health care who will be putting themselves at risk since there is not enough protective gear to keep them all safe if things get as intense as they are in other parts of the world.  
I hope it doesn't get nearly as bad as I am anticipating it could.  These kinds of events really have the potential to change the world dramatically.  Hopefully for the better, where we all support one another as humans on the same planet, rather than dividing ourselves and pitting country against country.  I have seen displays of both so far and hopefully there will be more of the first.


----------



## Millie

Our local stores look back to normal! It is a nice morale boost. We are well stocked at home now one way or another, but it takes some of the stress away all the same. Best to everyone ♡


----------



## DeeAnna

moodymama said:


> ...not sure we can get people  sick with the virus on FB. xD



You are 100% correct, but people are getting stressed out with all of the unrelenting flow of grim news. At least I know I am.  And ongoing low-level stress is not good for one's overall health and resistance to disease.  

I want to be informed but I don't want to get overwhelmed. Working on finding that balance.


----------



## Susie

@GML there is a line between correcting someone politely with facts, and stepping over that line.  You have crossed the line. And now
you are compounding everyone's opinion of your behavior.


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> You are 100% correct, but people are getting stressed out with all of the unrelenting flow of grim news. At least I know I am.  And ongoing low-level stress is not good for one's overall health and resistance to disease.
> 
> I want to be informed but I don't want to get overwhelmed. Working on finding that balance.



Yes, me too.  I have removed the news feed app on my phone.  I just don't need 100 updates a day on this.  I told my husband that since he is off so much now, he can watch the news when I am not home.  I am not sticking my head in the sand.  I check the news once a day in the morning.  That's enough.  I am stepping away from all the Facebook drama about it.  There's very little I can do about the overall situation, so I will deal with it in small doses and keep on washing my hands.


----------



## Arimara

bookreader451 said:


> I had a furloughed (with pay) coworker call about her check.  She said her friend's daughter was tested but no results yet.  She had been with both.  I told her she needed to self-isolate and her reply was, "I am going to pay my bills then go home."  She isn't grasping she has to STAY HOME.
> 
> I didn't let her in the office, I put the check under the door.
> 
> I also scored some, made in NY by inmates, hand sanitizer.


I hate to say this but I would love to get my mitts on some. I understand that other areas need it more.


----------



## bookreader451

Arimara said:


> I hate to say this but I would love to get my mitts on some. I understand that other areas need it more.


Our building houses several DOH offices and everyone is helping where they can. Sharing supplies etc.


----------



## Steve85569

sirtim100 said:


> I started with a sore throat a couple of days ago, and have a slight headache, but temperature is fine and there's no fatigue. Talked to a medic who said it could be a flare-up of my COPD and not to worry, but if things change, off to A&E in a hurry. Phoned the hospital to see if things were overloaded there, and the receptionist laughed and said "every once in a while", but her attitude was very much one of don't worry, if you need help, here we are, which goes against the recent media-generated hysteria of collapsing health systems.



Keep treating your COPD as usual and take care of yourself.
Your meds can cause the sore throat - mine do at times. Nothing too unusual there.

On another topic - the distillery 50 miles away has switched to making sanitizers that smell just like the *vodka* they usually make. They are giving out free samples. If you order from them they do curbside delivery, no clients in the store. Washington State is under Marshall law.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@Steve85569  Shine Distillery in Portland, OR, too.  It’s been making the national news.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

I have spent much of the past 2 days in bed, with a  slightly elevated temp, congestion, chills, lethargy and a decreased appetite. I don't believe it is COVID-19, since these are the same symptoms my 2 little guys had 10-14 days ago. Our country is already shut down and we were already practicing social distancing, now I'm isolating... just in case. The past 2 afternoons, when the lethargy peaks, and I lay down in my bed, my oldest (who is 7, has severe autism and is non-verbal) crawls into bed with me and sits quietly next to me while I sleep. It is extremely touching to know that he's watching over me.

We have been doing our best to make this time out of school and working from home not scary for the boys. We've taken walks on the nice days, done puzzles, played with trains, built Lego towers, watched cartoons and had breakfast for dinner more than once. We are hoping that Denmark doesn't go into lockdown like Italy, Spain and France.

This is a trying time for everyone.


----------



## shunt2011

Our Governor just gave all local independent  distillery's the okay to start producing sanitizer as well.


----------



## BattleGnome

MarnieSoapien said:


> We have been doing our best to make this time out of school and working from home not scary for the boys.



I got these links from another forum I belong to where a few people are offering ideas for the kids at home.

coloring book pages from museums
Story time from space 

I don’t know if your kids will have language issues with the second link but the concept is cool.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

BattleGnome said:


> I got these links from another forum I belong to where a few people are offering ideas for the kids at home.
> 
> coloring book pages from museums
> Story time from space
> 
> I don’t know if your kids will have language issues with the second link but the concept is cool.


Thanks! The language won't be a problem, we are an English speaking household  We are all Americans who just happen to be living abroad.


----------



## lsg

BattleGnome said:


> I got these links from another forum I belong to where a few people are offering ideas for the kids at home.
> 
> coloring book pages from museums
> Story time from space
> 
> I don’t know if your kids will have language issues with the second link but the concept is cool.


Crafts can be a great way to pass the time for the young ones.  I have found the YouTube channel  Red Ted Art has some very easy craft ideas for the younger children.


----------



## Dahila

Lin19687 said:


> This is not 'For Some' this should be FOR ALL.
> 
> People need to understand that you don't need to be Showing Signs of Symptoms to contaminate others or Things<---- this is a biggie people.  This thing lives on surfaces for a LONG TIME and in the Air for (IIRC) 4-6 hours.  It is not 100% known the full facts on this.
> 
> Stay home, eat well, SLEEP VERY WELL.  It is about the only thing we can do to Stop the spread.  If EVERY STATE did this we all will be better off for it.


not really  the virus lives on the surface about 3 hours.


----------



## sirtim100

Steve85569 said:


> Keep treating your COPD as usual and take care of yourself.
> Your meds can cause the sore throat - mine do at times. Nothing too unusual there.



Many thanks, Steve! Today I feel a lot better. I'm starting to wonder if I might have had a really dangerous strain of Covid 19, a savage mutation that wreaks havoc on all who catch it. It's common name is "mental coronavirus". Its symptoms include constant, obsessive temperature taking, occasional nervous cough, headache from staring at social media websites, and frequent (mental) phone calls to a lawyer to draw up a last will and testament. Its scientific name is rampant hypochondria, and I think I had it bad, at least yesterday. The cure is really quite simple, stop looking at news updates and social media.

Here in sunny lockdown Spain, the numbers continue to go up, but they're going up more slowly. We may be reaching the peak, but there's a tough stretch ahead, so they say. The mortality rates look horrible in Spain and Italy, but that has its explanation. Both countries have a huge population of elderly citizens, and sadly they're catching it in large numbers. Then again, the most common "confinement breakers" are old folk. The Spanish eat, live and breathe street life, so old people just have to take their walk and see their friends in the park, and they don't mind getting into heated arguments with tired, stressed-out policemen trying to get them to go home. 

The good news is that tonight all of Galicia is going out onto their balconies to sing "Oliñas Veñen" an old Galician folk song, at 22:00. To hell with that hairy little furball, we shall overcome... 

Big hugs to all, take care and happy soaping.


----------



## Lin19687

Hope this helps others. Listed below are the CDC & NIH website info.

From the CDC:
Clean & Disinfect
Interim Recommendations for US Households with Suspected/Confirmed Coronavirus Disease 2019
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...cov/community/home/cleaning-disinfection.html
I am sure some of the CDC info will change as they Learn more with this but thought the recommending cleaning info would be helpful to everyone.
Snippit  -- "Current evidence suggests that novel coronavirus may remain viable for hours to days on surfaces made from a variety of materials."

NIH (National Institutes of Health):
New coronavirus stable for hours on surfaces.  SARS-CoV-2 stability similar to original SARS virus.
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/new-coronavirus-stable-hours-surfaces
Snippit -- "The virus that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is stable for several hours to days in aerosols and on surfaces, according to a new study from National Institutes of Health, CDC, UCLA and Princeton University scientists in The New England Journal of Medicine."


----------



## Arimara

I do love me some NY drama with the mayor-I-never-voted-for.

I don't know when we may follow California with this Shelter-in-Place mess but I am not looking forward to it either.


----------



## amd

shunt2011 said:


> Our Governor just gave all local independent distillery's the okay to start producing sanitizer as well.


I believe ours as well. One of my engineers is part owner of a distillery, and he was asking me some questions about making hand sanitizer.

One of the engineers here is starting to prepare for the end of times. It's fun stuff watching him panic. He's been asking me how to make soup, lol.


----------



## DeeAnna

@amd --

Soup ... or soap? 

Maybe both, hey? 

I have worked with many male engineer types over the years. It's fascinating to watch how some of them approach cooking and other things that require creativity and artistic flair as much as science. Many of them want to reduce the world to hard numbers and black and white methodology. It can be amusing ... or frustrating ... depending on the situation.


----------



## MGM

Dahila said:


> not really  the virus lives on the surface about 3 hours.


NIH now saying 3 hrs to 3 days, depending on the surface.
Our neighbour, who gets a lot of packages, says he's putting everything that comes into the house into various piles in the living room for 3 days before he touches them. I'm assuming he means the mail, and not groceries


----------



## moodymama

Dahila said:


> not really  the virus lives on the surface about 3 hours.



It really is quite contagious and I have read that in warm temperature it can live on a surface for days.



> A man infected with coronavirus spread the virus to nine other people on his bus, raising fears the killer infection can jump between people far easier than initially thought in confined places.
> 
> A study found two victims sitting 4.5 metres (14.7ft) away from the man were later diagnosed, which is four times what is considered a 'safe distance' to stand near an COVID-19 patient.
> 
> Countries including Italy and the UK have implemented one to two metre distancing between people to limit outbreaks.
> 
> The virus has been thought to spread via cough or sneeze droplets, but the study found germs can linger in the air for long periods of time.
> 
> One traveller caught the coronavirus half an hour after the initial COVID-19 carrier got off, according to the scientists.
> The study also found the coronavirus can last for days on a surface, particularly in warmer temperatures, on plastic, fabric and metal.



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8094933/How-one-man-spread-coronavirus-NINE-people-bus.html


----------



## amd

DeeAnna said:


> @amd --
> 
> Soup ... or soap?
> 
> Maybe both, hey?
> 
> I have worked with many male engineer types over the years. It's fascinating to watch how some of them approach cooking and other things that require creativity and artistic flair as much as science. Many of them want to reduce the world to hard numbers and black and white methodology. It can be amusing ... or frustrating ... depending on the situation.



LOL, well this is a young single guy (23 or 24), and he was starting to get concerned that all the canned soup was gone. I mentioned to him that I have always had a few extra cans of broth and a bag of beans on hand to make soup. The look on his face when he asked me if I actually know how to make soup was kind of priceless. I don't think he realized that you can MAKE soup. I haven't even brought up SOAP yet. I'm too worried his head will explode... lol.


----------



## Arimara

amd said:


> LOL, well this is a young single guy (23 or 24), and he was starting to get concerned that all the canned soup was gone. I mentioned to him that I have always had a few extra cans of broth and a bag of beans on hand to make soup. The look on his face when he asked me if I actually know how to make soup was kind of priceless. I don't think he realized that you can MAKE soup. I haven't even brought up SOAP yet. I'm too worried his head will explode... lol.


That gave me a chuckle though I can see where the amazement may come from. Pennsylvania has taught me at least that.


----------



## dibbles

amd said:


> LOL, well this is a young single guy (23 or 24), and he was starting to get concerned that all the canned soup was gone. I mentioned to him that I have always had a few extra cans of broth and a bag of beans on hand to make soup. The look on his face when he asked me if I actually know how to make soup was kind of priceless. I don't think he realized that you can MAKE soup. I haven't even brought up SOAP yet. I'm too worried his head will explode... lol.


You are too funny - thanks for the laugh!


----------



## Dahila

temps of 60Celsius kills it, so does 70% alcohol.   It can not survive more than 3 hours.  It is contagious thats true.  You should look at info on serious pages .

“Surface disinfection with 0.1% sodium hypochlorite or 62–71% ethanol significantly reduces coronavirus infectivity on surfaces within 1 min[ute] exposure time.” all of us have it at home,  Use it to make sure you are safe


----------



## moodymama

Dahila said:


> temps of 60Celsius kills it, so does 70% alcohol.   It can not survive more than 3 hours.  It is contagious thats true.  You should look at info on serious pages .


You mean like this?

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMc2004973

ETA: 60°c is 140°f


----------



## Lin19687

Dahila said:


> temps of 60Celsius kills it, so does 70% alcohol.   It can not survive more than 3 hours.  It is contagious thats true.  You should look at info on serious pages .





Dahila said:


> “Surface disinfection with 0.1% sodium hypochlorite or 62–71% ethanol significantly reduces coronavirus infectivity on surfaces within 1 min[ute] exposure time.” all of us have it at home,  Use it to make sure you are safe


Can you post the linnk to this info .... not trying to be snotty, just want others informed


----------



## Sally Scheibner

‘Staff’ / Mers, Sara has been around long time  & you’ve been getting nose swabbed for years admitted to hospitals. Come on. Wash those hands & any object hands touch w/ soap & water. (Not phones or computer stuff).  We’re in a good position to help the public. Been giving bars to library workers, POffice, school teachers who are mandated to use their provided watered down cleaners.  All the other objects hard to clean guess I’ll buy Everclear & spray it on my steering wheel, etc.


----------



## DeeAnna

Lin19687 said:


> Can you post the linnk to this info .... not trying to be snotty, just want others informed



I think we've all beaten to death the fact that hand sanitizer needs to be at least 60% alcohol by volume. See the "Hand Sanitizer" thread by Mobjack Bay if you need direct sources.

"..._*Outside the body, "to actively kill the virus you need temperatures of around 60 degrees [Celsius]*", says Professor Bloomfield - far hotter than any bath. Washing bed linen or towels at 60C is a good idea, as this can kill any viruses in the fabric. But it's not a good option for washing your skin._..."

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51735367

"..._human coronaviruses such as Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) coronavirus, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) coronavirus or endemic humancoronaviruses (HCoV) can persist on inanimate surfaces like metal, glass or plastic for up to 9 days, but *can be efficiently inactivated by surface disinfection procedures with 62-71% ethanol, 0.5% hydrogen peroxide or 0.1% sodium hypochlorite within 1 minute*_...."

Source: https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(20)30046-3/pdf


----------



## bookreader451

NY went to shelter in place and I have to go to work Monday. I am an accountant how am I essential? I can work from home. But no I have to go into a building with other people and put my 69 yo hubby who has COPD in jeopardy.


----------



## Jersey Girl

bookreader451 said:


> NY went to shelter in place and I have to go to work Monday. I am an accountant how am I essential? I can work from home. But no I have to go into a building with other people and put my 69 yo hubby who has COPD in jeopardy.



That’s really disturbing that they are forcing you to go in. Tell your boss you need to self quarantine because you were exposed to someone who tested positive and that you will work from home. People who can work from home should have a choice in this unprecedented situation without fear of losing their jobs.  Stay well!


----------



## Arimara

Jersey Girl said:


> That’s really disturbing that they are forcing you to go in. Tell your boss you need to self quarantine because you were exposed to someone who tested positive and that you will work from home. People who can work from home should have a choice in this unprecedented situation without fear of losing their jobs.  Stay well!


The fact that this endangers her husband should have been reason enough. That's NY for you.


----------



## Jeboz

Dahila said:


> not really  the virus lives on the surface about 3 hours.


Try live on hard surfaces up to 72 hours - 3 DAYS. Very scary stuff and it is held in the air as well - not just coughed droplets.
Typical ironing temperatures should run hot enough to kill the virus if that is a possibility.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

New research, published by the New England Journal of Medicine a few days ago, reported experimental findings re. the viability on four types of  surfaces of the corona virus that is causing the pandemic (SARS-CoV-2).

Shorter, friendlier description of research here: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317150116.htm
“New research finds that the virus that causes coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) is stable for several hours to days in aerosols and on surfaces. Scientists found that severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) was detectable in aerosols for up to three hours*, up to four hours on copper, up to 24 hours on cardboard and up to two to three days on plastic and stainless steel.”

*This part of the sentence is misleading.  According to the original article, linked below, the virus remained viable for the full duration of the experiment with aerosols, which was 3 hours. 

The publication is here: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2004973

Under *experimental* conditions, the virus lasted longer on plastic and stainless steel than it did on copper and cardboard.

SARS-CoV-2 was more stable on plastic and stainless steel than on copper and cardboard, and viable virus was detected up to 72 hours after application to these surfaces.
On copper, no viable SARS-CoV-2 was measured after 4 hours.
On cardboard, no viable SARS-CoV-2 was measured after 24 hours.

They also conducted experiments with the related virus SARS-CoV-1, the one that caused “SARS” for comparison:
“We found that the stability of SARS-CoV-2 was similar to that of SARS-CoV-1 under the experimental circumstances tested. This indicates that differences in the epidemiologic characteristics of these viruses probably arise from other factors, including high viral loads in the upper respiratory tract and *the potential for persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 to shed and transmit the virus while asymptomatic.”*

Thus, the great need for social distancing.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

DeeAnna said:


> @amd --
> 
> Soup ... or soap?
> 
> Maybe both, hey?
> 
> I have worked with many male engineer types over the years. It's fascinating to watch how some of them approach cooking and other things that require creativity and artistic flair as much as science. Many of them want to reduce the world to hard numbers and black and white methodology. It can be amusing ... or frustrating ... depending on the situation.


Oh, I loved working with the engineers at my old job. I could count on them to read the manual and understand the math. I never got frustrated with their black and white thinking, it kind of amused me.

On the coronavirus front, my granddaughter 's school is starting remote learning on Monday. Kudos to them for getting this together so quickly. Lots of adjustments for everyone. I took a large box of soaps over to the school today. The teachers and staff have been working night and day in the last two weeks, when they were supposed to be having spring break. They are determined to try to keep these students on track to complete the school year. And frankly, a schedule is a good idea to keep focus away from too much obsessive worrying.
My Dad's medical procedure was postponed. The hospital is only taking emergencies at this time to limit social interaction. And my guess is that they also want to free up as many beds as possible.
Be calm and wash your hands (with soap).

On a NPR report on the Coronavirus, they spoke of sunlight killing viruses, including coronaviruses. Because of that, I've been leaving packages out in the open for 3-4 hours. However, I haven't been able to find any other source that supports that.

Anyone else know if this is true?


----------



## KiwiMoose

Steve85569 said:


> Keep treating your COPD as usual and take care of yourself.
> Your meds can cause the sore throat - mine do at times. Nothing too unusual there.
> 
> On another topic - the distillery 50 miles away has switched to making sanitizers that smell just like the *vodka* they usually make. They are giving out free samples. If you order from them they do curbside delivery, no clients in the store. Washington State is under Marshall law.


Steve - my brother in law lives in Seattle and he said there is no marshall law??


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@Nona'sFarm   According to a couple of biodefense researchers at Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland, “Sunlight or, more specifically, solar UV radiation (UV) acts as the principal natural virucide in the environment.”  With only a scan of the paper I did not find easily digestible results or conclusions, but here’s the link if you’re interested:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280232/#__ffn_sectitle

UV-C is the very effective type of UV radiation used for sterilization in research labs, but I don’t think much of it passes through the atmosphere compared with UV-A and UV-B.


----------



## Misschief

KiwiMoose said:


> Steve - my brother in law lives in Seattle and he said there is no marshall law??


Shouldn't that be martial law?


----------



## Arimara

This is Marshall Law.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Arimara said:


> This is Marshall Law.


That's martial arts


----------



## KiwiMoose

52 confirmed cases in NZ now.  Still no community transmission - all incoming via our airports.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Steve85569 said:


> Washington State is under Marshall law.


I don't believe this info is correct. We have a lot of friends and family who live in WA and we haven't heard anything about this. There's not even a curfew in place.


----------



## bookreader451

Arimara said:


> The fact that this endangers her husband should have been reason enough. That's NY for you.


I am only going in for 4 hours, disinfecting everything constantly, washing my hands constantly,  even though I haven’t touched anything  but my disinfected stuff.   I plan on bringing my spray bottle of alcohol and wearing soaping  gloves, locking my office door.


----------



## Kcryss

Kamran said:


> Hello,
> removed quote post that was deleted
> Thanks.


Isn't this like saying "bleach kills aids, so drink bleach!"? No thanks ...


----------



## Lin19687

Kamran said:


> Hello,
> quote post was deleted
> Thanks.


1st, Soap doesn't break down the virus, it just is a way of seperating it from your skin.
I am not even going to continue onto #2............



bookreader451 said:


> I am only going in for 4 hours, disinfecting everything constantly, washing my hands constantly,  even though I haven’t touched anything  but my disinfected stuff.   I plan on bringing my spray bottle of alcohol and wearing soaping  gloves, locking my office door.


I believe according to the Gov of NY that you are NOT to go in.  You are NOT Essential and I would tell your boss that. 
Just call your boss and tell them to watch the news and then tell them you are not going in.  simple


----------



## sirtim100

Lin19687 said:


> 1st, Soap doesn't break down the virus, it just is a way of seperating it from your skin.
> I am not even going to continue onto #2............


 
No, wait, wait. I see a future in this. You drink a bottle of shampoo, you eat two large plates of chilli con carne, with extra beans. Wait a while, and when the flatulence comes on, you've got endless fun and entertainment for the kiddies as you fart soapy bubbles left, right and centre.


----------



## Lin19687

sirtim100 said:


> No, wait, wait. I see a future in this. You drink a bottle of shampoo, you eat two large plates of chilli con carne, with extra beans. Wait a while, and when the flatulence comes on, you've got endless fun and entertainment for the kiddies as you fart soapy bubbles left, right and centre.


Right but then you would be spreading the Virus too.  Just think of how FAR a Fart goes ....................

bhahahahahahah


----------



## sirtim100

Lin19687 said:


> Right but then you would be spreading the Virus too.  Just think of how FAR a Fart goes ....................
> 
> bhahahahahahah



Rats! That's true. No wait, wait. Drink half a litre of sanitizer. That way you're virus free, drunk and flatulent, the kids'll just love it.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

“drink / inject / inhale soap to treat corona virus infection”
Edited to remove an unnecessary opinion.

The virucidal properties of soap are a function of the way soap molecules interact with the surface of a virus. In addition to ungluing the virus from a surface, soap can also dissolve the fat layer of viruses, causing them to fall apart (ref).  Soap doesn’t maintain its unique structure when ingested. Once soap gets to the stomach, the fatty acid salts break up into fatty acids and ions, which could be the same fatty acids found in food (ref) depending on the fats used to make the soap. Eating soap might not kill you, but it can cause severe vomiting and diarrhea. I am willing to speculate that soap introduced directly into the lungs or bloodstream would be highly problematic due to the high pH, foaming and other properties of soap. (ETA: such as interactions with cell membranes)

ETA: there is some scientific evidence that lipids (fatty acids) produced by the body and present in breast milk or nasal mucus, for example, can be virucidal.  See this post in another thread: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/our-soap-and-the-corona-virus.78562/page-4#post-818803


----------



## Noreen Moore

Love the humor! It certainly is needed during these times!
Note! 5.1 days after exposure is the incubation period. Then if positive day 8 of the virus is most concerning if one has symptoms. Day 8 is notoriously the day the person can "tank" or "krump" as we say in healthcare! That is when acute respiratory distress syndrome CAN kick in!  Heart and lung congestion, and pneumonia.  People with highest risk are those with cardiovascular diseases and diabetes. As well as those who are immunosuppressed or are on biologicals for diseases as rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis etc... 
I hope this can help people. 
The more I learn the more I will share with members. 
So TOMORROW I am hoping I pop no cough. 1st symptom. Followed by a fever.  And I am sure come Monday when I return to Covid-19 front lines I will know if my use of personal protective equipment (sans N95!!!!) is working!!!! 
Old boy scored toilet paper and paper towels!!!! YEA!!!!!! I have plenty!!! 
Will be happy to share!


----------



## Kcryss

Noreen Moore said:


> Love the humor! It certainly is needed during these times!
> Note! 5.1 days after exposure is the incubation period. Then if positive day 8 of the virus is most concerning if one has symptoms. Day 8 is notoriously the day the person can "tank" or "krump" as we say in healthcare! That is when acute respiratory distress syndrome CAN kick in!  Heart and lung congestion, and pneumonia.  People with highest risk are those with cardiovascular diseases and diabetes. As well as those who are immunosuppressed or are on biologicals for diseases as rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis etc...
> I hope this can help people.
> The more I learn the more I will share with members.
> So TOMORROW I am hoping I pop no cough. 1st symptom. Followed by a fever.  And I am sure come Monday when I return to Covid-19 front lines I will know if my use of personal protective equipment (sans N95!!!!) is working!!!!


Sooo ... what you're saying is that even though I am personally under the age of 60, because I have diabetes and had a heart attack last summer, I'm high risk? Ouch ...


----------



## Arimara

KiwiMoose said:


> That's martial arts



His name is Marshall Law. He's from the Tekken games. I just can't remember if he's Forest Law's father or son.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

sirtim100 said:


> No, wait, wait. I see a future in this. You drink a bottle of shampoo, you eat two large plates of chilli con carne, with extra beans. Wait a while, and when the flatulence comes on, you've got endless fun and entertainment for the kiddies as you fart soapy bubbles left, right and centre.


Some people. Thanks for the laugh!


----------



## Lin19687

Why is it people NEED paper towels ?  Does no one use hand towels anymore?
Sure hope they are not going to be flushing those and those **** wet wipes down the toilet !
So tired of seeing the commercials for the 'flushable' wipes.  They may flush but they clog not only YOUR drains but the facilities machines.
Our local news did a small blurp to not flush them. 
Surprised my Landlord the Plumber has not texted me about that........ but then again I think he knows me better then that.


----------



## Lin19687

Arimara said:


> His name is Marshall Law. He's from the Tekken games. I just can't remember if he's Forest Law's father or son.


AHHH  I KNEW he looked familiar but couldn't place it.  I played that game about 20 years ago when it 1st came out - ok maybe it was longer shhhh


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Noreen Moore said:


> Love the humor! It certainly is needed during these times!
> Note! 5.1 days after exposure is the incubation period. Then if positive day 8 of the virus is most concerning if one has symptoms. Day 8 is notoriously the day the person can "tank" or "krump" as we say in healthcare! That is when acute respiratory distress syndrome CAN kick in!  Heart and lung congestion, and pneumonia.  People with highest risk are those with cardiovascular diseases and diabetes. As well as those who are immunosuppressed or are on biologicals for diseases as rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis etc...
> I hope this can help people.
> The more I learn the more I will share with members.
> So TOMORROW I am hoping I pop no cough. 1st symptom. Followed by a fever.  And I am sure come Monday when I return to Covid-19 front lines I will know if my use of personal protective equipment (sans N95!!!!) is working!!!!
> Old boy scored toilet paper and paper towels!!!! YEA!!!!!! I have plenty!!!
> Will be happy to share!


I made it to Day 10 with no symptoms after being on the Washington DC metro, but it’s only 5 days since I was in a meeting with a colleague who was in an extended meeting last week with someone who has been confirmed positive. I appreciate any updates on timing of symptoms for most. I feel fine, although tired from all of the meetings at work. I haven’t had a cold in over three years, so I’m hoping for the best. It’s a bit unsettling to have just turned 65 a few months ago. I don’t feel “old”, but I’m definitely falling into the group the health officials keep lumping into higher risk.


----------



## TheGecko

Steve85569 said:


> Washington State is under Marshall law.



No it's not.  Quit spreading false information since you obviously have NO CLUE what 'marshall law' actually is.  In a nutshell:  "Martial law is the imposition of direct military control of normal civilian functions by a government, especially in response to a temporary emergency such as invasion or major disaster, or in an occupied territory."  ML has not been used in this country since the Cambridge riot of 1963.  Yes, the National Guard has currently been activated in 22 states, but not as a military force, but for disaster aid.


----------



## Obsidian

I'm on the border of washington and idaho, guess they will be closing washington off in the next few days. I know its needed and I wish it was done sooner but its scary. 

Its starting to hit close to home now and I'm scared. I'm keeping my panic mostly under control but I was at the grocery store at 7 am today and I stocked up on dog food yesterday.

My hubby can't work from home, I really wish he could. I am concerned about him getting exposed at work once it hits our town.


----------



## Steve85569

Call it what you want.
When I can be arrested for going about my normal life I will call it tyranny.

I will do what I can to not contract or spread this virus.
I will not participate in the panic.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Is anyone else airing out their house periodically?  I have all the doors and windows open right now.  It’s in the 60s outside so it feels invigorating rather than super cold.   The fresh air smells sweeter than I remember.


----------



## Kcryss

Mobjack Bay said:


> Is anyone else airing out their house periodically?  I have all the doors and windows open right now.  It’s in the 60s outside so it feels invigorating rather than super cold.   The fresh air smells sweeter than I remember.



We open our doors when it's nice out, but right now it's only 33, so staying closed for now.


----------



## soapmaker

Mobjack Bay said:


> Is anyone else airing out their house periodically?  I have all the doors and windows open right now.  It’s in the 60s outside so it feels invigorating rather than super cold.   The fresh air smells sweeter than I remember.


In the 20s here this morning. But we sleep with our window open every night except in summer when it's too hot and humid.


----------



## sirtim100

Mobjack Bay said:


> Is anyone else airing out their house periodically?  I have all the doors and windows open right now.  It’s in the 60s outside so it feels invigorating rather than super cold.   The fresh air smells sweeter than I remember.



Coruña is a coastal town but it has its share of pollution. Since the lockdown the air has smelt so good, really fresh


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Calming Words from a friend of my niece - 

(hope the link works)

https://www.instagram.com/p/B93Fq9iJKrG/?igshid=uj981vexd9qw


----------



## Mobjack Bay

sirtim100 said:


> Coruña is a coastal town but it has its share of pollution. Since the lockdown the air has smelt so good, really fresh


It hadn’t occurred to me that the air in the towns and cities would be noticeably cleaner.  Thanks for sharing that.
I haven’t live in a densely populated area in a very long time.

@Nona'sFarm I needed a little positivity so thanks for sharing that link.  I was so busy all week that I really didn’t have much time to read anything outside of work, then Ispent a couple of hours trying to catch up last night.  It was too much at once.  This is an important time for maintaining balance.


----------



## shunt2011

Mobjack Bay said:


> Is anyone else airing out their house periodically?  I have all the doors and windows open right now.  It’s in the 60s outside so it feels invigorating rather than super cold.   The fresh air smells sweeter than I remember.


I would love to but it’s 30 degrees out. So I cleaned windows to let the rare sunshine in.


----------



## Millie

I aired out the house yesterday when it was almost 70°F. Snowed this morning. Good ol' March.


----------



## BattleGnome

Lin19687 said:


> Why is it people NEED paper towels ?  Does no one use hand towels anymore?



germaphobic husband has always refused to use hand towels, even when I regularly change/wash them. It drives me nuts but that’s one thing that’s been slow to change in our 9 years of living together.


----------



## atiz

Mobjack Bay said:


> Is anyone else airing out their house periodically?  I have all the doors and windows open right now.  It’s in the 60s outside so it feels invigorating rather than super cold.   The fresh air smells sweeter than I remember.


I keep it open too. And take long (lonely) walks often. It's probably overreacting but I just feel like I need much more fresh air now than usual.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

atiz said:


> I keep it open too. And take long (lonely) walks often. It's probably overreacting but I just feel like I need much more fresh air now than usual.


Walking helps- exercise alleviates anxiety,  sun helps with Vitamin D & the immune system, and I believe  sun helps kill off viruses.


----------



## bookreader451

> =I believe according to the Gov of NY that you are NOT to go in.  You are NOT Essential and I would tell your boss that.
> Just call your boss and tell them to watch the news and then tell them you are not going in.  simple




I would but I really want my income and health insurance (I pay nothing for 2 person, no deductible).  Hubby is retired and we are in the middle of a refi at 2.5%. I am not risking getting fired. 

I may show up in a tyvek suit, gloves and a respirator mask to prove my point.  Hubby is/was a painter for years and we have all of those things on hand.


----------



## TheGecko

Obsidian said:


> Its starting to hit close to home now and I'm scared. I'm keeping my panic mostly under control but I was at the grocery store at 7 am today and I stocked up on dog food yesterday.
> 
> My hubby can't work from home, I really wish he could. I am concerned about him getting exposed at work once it hits our town.



It’s here.  14 cases at the Veteran’s Home 12 miles from me.  1 case at one of our local medical clinics.  And potentially one case at our office.  One of my co-workers...that I share an office with...decided that it would be a good idea to come into work sick.  “It’s just a cold!”  

I was anticipating being out of work after the 15th of April (I’m an accountant with a CPA firm), but between “Karen” and the government pushing the tax deadline back 90 days...I start working from home next week. 

I’m good with that.  Give me time to make soap.  More time to knit.  Going to do some Spring cleaning.


----------



## Lin19687

Why did it take the Gov to push the Tax date further out ?  Duh, would have thought that right off the bat.
  Course now I can procrastinate longer lol.  No JJ, I'm gonna have to pull all the papers out and play with them while I have loads of time....... after I get the garden cleaned up a bit


----------



## debdeb54a

Mobjack Bay said:


> Is anyone else airing out their house periodically?  I have all the doors and windows open right now.  It’s in the 60s outside so it feels invigorating rather than super cold.   The fresh air smells sweeter than I remember.


I just moved in January to a senior housing where all utilities are included.  It's too hot to keep the heat on and I have the windows open so I have a constant supply of fresh air.  The sun shining in the window makes it warm enough so that sometimes I have to keep a fan running.  This is just the opposite where I used to live where I was cold all the time.


----------



## earlene

Yes, I have always been in the habit of airing out my house whenever I can.  Fresh air always feels better to me.  I walk outdoors frequently as well.  Yes, I am in a high risk group, but walking outdoors without close contact to the few I also see walking outdoors, being friendly from a distance to neighbors and strangers, is far better than being couped up inside a stuffy house.

I even air out my house during the rain as long as the wind is not so strong that it is blowing the rain in through the windows.


----------



## DeeAnna

shunt2011 said:


> I would love to but it’s 30 degrees out. So I cleaned windows to let the rare sunshine in.



Ah! I thought I was the only one doing that.  Nice to know I'm not alone in wanting every scrap of sunshine into the house this time of year. 

On the rare day when the temp climbs into the 40s and the sun is shining, I do open the house for awhile to air it out.


----------



## soapmaker

Just a thought. Today I was with my 88 year old MIL. She had a humidifier going. It has a place to put EOs but she didn't do it. I did. What a difference in that room! I used Eucalyptus, Lavender, Peppermint, Lemon & Orange. I now know what my next soap will be. It smelled sooo good.


----------



## sirtim100

Spanish government has decided to extend the national lockdown for another two weeks. Figures just keep on rising. 

What amazes (and heartens me) is the spirit of the people. They put up with it all, hang on in there and still applaud every evening at 20:00. Now they're playing recordings of Galician folk songs and a famous old Spanish rock song, "Resistiré". Very apt...

The air smells wonderful. And I'd swear that the temperature has dropped because there are so few cars and local industry is almost at a standstill. There's no urban micro-climate. Go out on the street and it feels like you're in the country. 

Take care and happy soaping


----------



## Relle

shunt2011 said:


> I would love to but it’s 30 degrees out. So I cleaned windows to let the rare sunshine in.


It's been over 30 degrees here also, that's 30 degrees C that is. Too hot to go in the sunshine, I get burn't.


----------



## penelopejane

Mobjack Bay said:


> I hope he’s okay!  One of my friends just found out that two regular attendees of their church we’re confirmed positive for the virus.


Yes he’s fine now. Took 8 days to recover. Fever was bad but the worst symptom was that all his bones felt sore.


----------



## Concha

[ I have as much chance of getting a fatal case of Covid 19 as I do the flu. Proper hygene and taking care of where I go when I go.
The MEDIA has caused a huge panic .]

The DEAD are causing the panic!!! And the ill!!! and the hospitals collapsing!! This is totally different because it is NEW. Don´t get it wrong. You Will see in a week oer


----------



## Arimara

Concha said:


> [ I have as much chance of getting a fatal case of Covid 19 as I do the flu. Proper hygene and taking care of where I go when I go.
> The MEDIA has caused a huge panic .]
> 
> The DEAD are causing the panic!!! And the ill!!! and the hospitals collapsing!! This is totally different because it is NEW. Don´t get it wrong. You Will see in a week oer


So, remind me, what exactly are you doing with the implied tone and excessive use of exclamation marks?


----------



## shunt2011

Well we are now a shelter in place state per the Governor starting at 12:00 tonight for 3 weeks.   I work in a hospital so it doesn't include me.   Hopefully it will stop the spread.  We are up to 1200 cases and 15 deaths in less than a week.

@Concha  I'm not understanding your yelling (caps) and exclamation marks.


----------



## lsg

All non-vital businesses to close in our nearest city until April 4.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Denmark has extended it's shutdown until April 14. At least we're not on lockdown yet.


----------



## soapmaker

Arimara said:


> So, remind me, what exactly are you doing with the implied tone and excessive use of exclamation marks?


I guess I misunderstood this. I just took it to be a wake up call to those who blame the media and the government.


----------



## Lin19687

shunt2011 said:


> Well we are now a shelter in place state per the Governor starting at 12:00 tonight for 3 weeks.   I work in a hospital so it doesn't include me.   Hopefully it will stop the spread.  We are up to 1200 cases and 15 deaths in less than a week.
> 
> @Concha  I'm not understanding your yelling (caps) and exclamation marks.


Wow, I didn't know there were so many cases there, more then here in Mass.  We are at 646 and 5 deaths.


----------



## shunt2011

Lin19687 said:


> Wow, I didn't know there were so many cases there, more then here in Mass.  We are at 646 and 5 deaths.



That's what happens when people won't stay home.


----------



## Lin19687

It's now snowing here.  
I at least got some seeds in the ground just before it started to snow. 
So I got some fresh air and a bit of exercise


----------



## Arimara

soapmaker said:


> I guess I misunderstood this. I just took it to be a wake up call to those who blame the media and the government.


I can't speak for international media but American media is good for fearmongering at times. Our government's response to this pandemic is also allowed to be viewed with some scrutiny. They're the ones relaying info yet also playing unnecessary blame games which do nothing but rile up people who need to stay calm. I find it hard for the dead to do all that. As for the sick, many of them are victims in this. This is all from my personal perspective but people need to just be calm because people make dumb choices when scared.


----------



## SeaSuds

UK is now on Lockdown


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Ten days ago I wrote that there were a few cases within 30 miles of me.  We’re up to 48 as of this afternoon.  So far, a close colleague who was asked to self-isolate by the health department isn’t having any symptoms.   I haven’t been away from my house in almost a week but need to go into work tomorrow to get my computer monitor.  I will be wearing gloves.


----------



## msunnerstood

Wisconsin goes into Shelter In Place tomorrow. All Non Essential businesses will be closed. No details yet on what those will be. current count in WI is 416. None in My County yet but we are surrounded by Counties that have cases.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Overall Virginia has 254 cases.  The biggest concentrations are in cities, along the interstate routes and in areas where the universities are located.  It says a lot about the influence of population density and transportation.


----------



## Misschief

I'm now officially laid off. There's just not enough work for more than one person at this time. I will admit to being somewhat relieved.


----------



## KiwiMoose

I don't know if you heard the news - but we are at alert level three until 11.59pm on Wednesday, when the entire country goes onto full lockdown.  My sisters have a retail business in the mall - they are closing up at 5pm today.  The food courts, etc are already closed.  Takeaway/delivery food companies are to cease from Weds 11.59pm.  The lockdown will continue for 4 weeks, at which time it will be reassessed.  We are up to 102 confirmed cases yesterday at 5pm, but I have not had updates yet for today.  No deaths yet. Our entire population is only 4 million so it's scary how quickly it is spreading and how ignorant some people are about being out in public and spreading the virus around. I have a mother who had major cancer surgery last year, and brother in law with the same, and another brother in law with diabetes and severe kidney and pancreas problems.  Supermarkets will still be open but there's limited access - they only allow a certain amount of people in at one time to receive crowding, and there are markers on the floor where people are to stand at the counter.


----------



## MGM

Mobjack Bay said:


> I haven’t been away from my house in almost a week but need to go into work tomorrow to get my computer monitor.  I will be wearing gloves.


Me too! They shut down the university while I was in Cancun  but I wasn't able to get my stuff. I'm supposed to be self-isolating for 14 days, but I'm also supposed to be working, so I will drive my 45-min commute (probably go really fast as there will be no traffic!), don gloves and a mask when I get there, and go upstairs to get my peripherals. Will feel like a thief! (Doesn't help that I'm watching _Ocean's Eleven_ right now while tidying up soaping files.....)


----------



## Mobjack Bay

We haven’t closed our campus yet, but I’m wondering how much longer it will be.  We are heavily funded by federal grants and if the research isn’t done, we can’t bill.  If we can’t bill, we can only pay the people supported by those grants for so long.  A federal lab down the road is beginning the shutdown process this week.  Their focus is not biomedical and ours isn’t either.  I really do hope the biomedical labs around the world can keep going during this pandemic.  We need those scientists at their benches and computers figuring out how the he!! to slow this pandemic down.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Our campus closes from tomorrow- all face to face classes are suspended this week to allow us time to put everything on line, create alternative assessments etc. Then they will resume next week as online only.


----------



## dibbles

KiwiMoose said:


> I don't know if you heard the news - but we are at alert level three until 11.59pm on Wednesday, when the entire country goes onto full lockdown.  My sisters have a retail business in the mall - they are closing up at 5pm today.  The food courts, etc are already closed.  Takeaway/delivery food companies are to cease from Weds 11.59pm.  The lockdown will continue for 4 weeks, at which time it will be reassessed.  We are up to 102 confirmed cases yesterday at 5pm, but I have not had updates yet for today.  No deaths yet. Our entire population is only 4 million so it's scary how quickly it is spreading and how ignorant some people are about being out in public and spreading the virus around. I have a mother who had major cancer surgery last year, and brother in law with the same, and another brother in law with diabetes and severe kidney and pancreas problems.  Supermarkets will still be open but there's limited access - they only allow a certain amount of people in at one time to receive crowding, and there are markers on the floor where people are to stand at the counter.


Take care Kiwi, and I hope your family is able to stay well.


----------



## Arimara

I just learned that a group of people in Philly started a gofundme to help pay restaurants to feed hospital staff.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/c...free-meals-to-health-care-workers/ar-BB11BTvr


----------



## rdc1978

TheGecko said:


> It’s here.  14 cases at the Veteran’s Home 12 miles from me.  1 case at one of our local medical clinics.  And potentially one case at our office.  One of my co-workers...that I share an office with...decided that it would be a good idea to come into work sick.  “It’s just a cold!”
> 
> I was anticipating being out of work after the 15th of April (I’m an accountant with a CPA firm), but between “Karen” and the government pushing the tax deadline back 90 days...I start working from home next week.
> 
> I’m good with that.  Give me time to make soap.  More time to knit.  Going to do some Spring cleaning.



As a personal aside, I hate when people do this.  I get that people need their sick days for the kids and what not, but my supervisor routinely shows up sick and wants to go around and chat and I can just feel myself shrinking up in my seat and pushing into the corner to get away from her.  

I always just want to scream "YOURE NOT A HERO FOR COMING HERE SICK, GO HOME!"

our job can be done from home, we all work from home five days a week now.  She could work sick from home, I think she just feels like she is setting a positive example.


----------



## TheGecko

rdc1978 said:


> As a personal aside, I hate when people do this.  I get that people need their sick days for the kids and what not, but my supervisor routinely shows up sick and wants to go around and chat and I can just feel myself shrinking up in my seat and pushing into the corner to get away from her.
> 
> I always just want to scream "YOURE NOT A HERO FOR COMING HERE SICK, GO HOME!" our job can be done from home, we all work from home five days a week now.  She could work sick from home, I think she just feels like she is setting a positive example.



It just pisses me off that we all sat in the same meeting...stay home if are sick, don’t put your co-workers at risk.  She defended her actions because I had had a cold and came into work.  True, but it was very mild, my allergies were causing me more problems.  The simple fact is, she’s one of those people can can’t see beyond the end of her nose.  In a way, I’m glad for the virus since it means I won’t have to deal with her for the next several weeks, but the suck thing is that we were going to let her go after tax season and we can’t.  Boss is a good boss and she’s into the company for $750 right now...she’ll need to work for us until she can pay it back.



Concha said:


> [ I have as much chance of getting a fatal case of Covid 19 as I do the flu. Proper hygene and taking care of where I go when I go.
> The MEDIA has caused a huge panic .]
> 
> The DEAD are causing the panic!!! And the ill!!! and the hospitals collapsing!! This is totally different because it is NEW. Don´t get it wrong. You Will see in a week oer



Hon...going around screaming “the sky is falling, the sky is falling” doesn’t help either.  The dead can’t cause panic...they are dead...it’s the living that are the problem.  Starting with China, this is the second time this has happened, but at least that time there was a vaccine and certain amount of immunity.  This time, it’s something completely new and to place a city of 11 million into lockdown with only 81K cases and 8k death in the entire country...the numbers don’t add up.  Especially when you look at Italy.  

We’re only just getting started in the US and it’s going to get bad simply because Americana don’t like being told what do do, not even by our own government.  Case in point...our Governor told people that if they didn’t start practicing social distancing as requested, then she would order it.  On Saturday, our beach towns were packed bumper to bumper with people! W.T.F!?!  And she did.

Some folks were complaining about.  I told them that it was their own **** fault for acting like a spoiled 2 year-old.  If you can’t behave in public, you can stay in your room.


----------



## Lin19687

snow came last night   Welcome to New England where it is sunny and getting warm then WHAM, Not so fast Lucy !
  I was hoping to play a little more in the garden this week


----------



## Carolyne Thrasher

I haven't been around much because I'm having a horrible time with migraines and I'm trying medications but they just aren't working so I've been pretty much living in a state of if it isn't 100% necessary it isn't getting done. I seem to be getting a reprieve. I really miss you guys; and I know, I'm going to get on the ground news here, so I'm checking in from Oregon, USA. We are the little state between California and Washington. We have a shelter-in-place state mandated regulation that has a misdemeanor and fine if you are caught disregarding it. Restaurants offering takeout allowed to stay open. Businesses that allow curbside pickup or delivery allowed open. Work from home if possible not only encouraged but mandated by the state. No school until 4/28 (at least). My kids are technically on their spring break and I've told them to just binge on video games and youtube while hubby and I get organized. Trying to prioritize eating and mental health. My kids could be done with school and roll right into next year without problems unlike many of their classmates so I'm not worried about school and I detest busy work so we shall see what we come up with. Something because they can't be onscreen for a month but... I take care of my 78 yo mom. She lives with us. We have a big house on a big lot. So thankful for that. But we started taking precautions, wiping doorknobs etc. 8 weeks ago. We put up a pretty solid barrier around Mom 4 weeks ago. My husband is a pastor and our church is heavy on the senior age bracket and they stopped shaking hands and allowing hugs 6 weeks ago and 2 weeks ago they went to virtual services. I'm proud to say our congregation has been 1 week ahead of state mandated rules, no science deniers here. I've missed you guys and I hope you are all well. I'm not afraid of this virus. I'm just afraid we aren't listening to the experts and have missed the point of flattening the curve so that we don't overwhelm our systems. Sorry to go on and on.


----------



## Arimara

@Carolyne Thrasher My daughter is doing online digital class right now. I also am plagued with headaches but I limit most of my triggers except tea (caffeine is the real culprit). Have you tried excluding common triggers from your diet? In any case, I hope you feel better.


----------



## atiz

Mobjack Bay said:


> We haven’t closed our campus yet, but I’m wondering how much longer it will be.  We are heavily funded by federal grants and if the research isn’t done, we can’t bill.  If we can’t bill, we can only pay the people supported by those grants for so long.  A federal lab down the road is beginning the shutdown process this week.  Their focus is not biomedical and ours isn’t either.  I really do hope the biomedical labs around the world can keep going during this pandemic.  We need those scientists at their benches and computers figuring out how the he!! to slow this pandemic down.


UVA is planning to close all its bio labs as well sometime in the near future. They haven't told us yet when exactly, but they asked everyone to be prepared. 
(I'm on the humanities side so it doesn't affect me directly... but it is still very discouraging. We haven't been allowed in the office for more than a week now either, but at least in theory all we need is a pen and a piece of paper.)
Hope you all are staying safe!


----------



## Dru B.

Dahila said:


> well on coming Monday I leave for Europe for few weeks , can not cancel it,  With my COPD any cold or flue may end as pneumonia,  I keep my fingers crossed that no one will be sneezing in plane.   What we do ,  when the sickness come.  Whatever it is is (viruses) it stats in the nose,  then rinsing sinuses is pretty useful tool, hand washing, and hand washing I hope I will have a nice time in Poland (I had not visit for 15 years) and come back healthy


Hello Dahlia, I wondered if you were able to make your trip? I was in Thailand for three weeks and my flights were not affected but European countries were. Also travelers who had planned to stay longer in Thailand were cutting their trips short and trying to get home sooner. I got home the day before the Stay-At-Home order was made.


----------



## Dahila

Dru B. said:


> Hello Dahlia, I wondered if you were able to make your trip? I was in Thailand for three weeks and my flights were not affected but European countries were. Also travelers who had planned to stay longer in Thailand were cutting their trips short and trying to get home sooner. I got home the day before the Stay-At-Home order was made.


yes but I cut it short to two weeks,  now I am on self isolation and going insane,  on day 6th.  I am happy i got home ,  In poland they closed everything,  To be locked even with lovely family is not my idea of vacation. So far I am good .


----------



## MGM

KiwiMoose said:


> Our campus closes from tomorrow- all face to face classes are suspended this week to allow us time to put everything on line, create alternative assessments etc. Then they will resume next week as online only.


The funny thing is, this is my entire job. I feel like I've been inadvertently preparing for a pandemic my entire life...


----------



## Carolyne Thrasher

Arimara said:


> @Carolyne Thrasher My daughter is doing online digital class right now. I also am plagued with headaches but I limit most of my triggers except tea (caffeine is the real culprit). Have you tried excluding common triggers from your diet? In any case, I hope you feel better.


I've had migraines for 30 years and I know exactly what my trigger is. I remember the exact first migraine I had. It was at 4 am the morning after I took the first placebo pill in the old school packet of birth control pills (you know the kind that had the higher amounts of hormones). I woke up with throbbing pain in one side of my head and was violently ill. That happened every month on schedule until I stopped taking the pill. Doctors refused to believe me. Unfortunately after that the die was set and my body for whatever reason decided that every month at ovulation it was going to do this to me but it wasn't always at 4 am. And now thanks to menopause ovulation is all over the place so my trigger is myself. Not red wine, not cheese, not gluten. Although none of those help. But thanks triggers are always the first place to start. After 30 years of beating myself up for eating this or that though I give up and eat whatever I want because it's going to happen or it's not. And if you're a migraine sufferer. It's not your fault.


----------



## Susie

We're going on stay-at-home at midnight tonight in my county(same as shelter in place, but less scary terminology for the easily frightened).  Shame my hubby and I both work with doctors and can't stay home.

The good news is that they released my daughter from student teaching, so she is on the way here.  We will worry about moving her here when this is over.  My son is hanging out at his house being careful as he is also immunocompromised.  So, my family is in as safe a situation as possible under the circumstances.

What about yours?



Carolyne Thrasher said:


> I've had migraines for 30 years and I know exactly what my trigger is. I remember the exact first migraine I had. It was at 4 am the morning after I took the first placebo pill in the old school packet of birth control pills (you know the kind that had the higher amounts of hormones). I woke up with throbbing pain in one side of my head and was violently ill. That happened every month on schedule until I stopped taking the pill. Doctors refused to believe me. Unfortunately after that the die was set and my body for whatever reason decided that every month at ovulation it was going to do this to me but it wasn't always at 4 am. And now thanks to menopause ovulation is all over the place so my trigger is myself. Not red wine, not cheese, not gluten. Although none of those help. But thanks triggers are always the first place to start. After 30 years of beating myself up for eating this or that though I give up and eat whatever I want because it's going to happen or it's not. And if you're a migraine sufferer. It's not your fault.



The good news is that menopause is the beginning of the end of migraines.  It may happen slowly, but it will happen.  I get a much, much milder migraine now if all the bad triggers (storms, stress, chocolate, cheese, pickles, MSG) align.  And I have had exactly two in the last two years.


----------



## Arimara

Carolyne Thrasher said:


> I've had migraines for 30 years and I know exactly what my trigger is. I remember the exact first migraine I had. It was at 4 am the morning after I took the first placebo pill in the old school packet of birth control pills (you know the kind that had the higher amounts of hormones). I woke up with throbbing pain in one side of my head and was violently ill. That happened every month on schedule until I stopped taking the pill. Doctors refused to believe me. Unfortunately after that the die was set and my body for whatever reason decided that every month at ovulation it was going to do this to me but it wasn't always at 4 am. And now thanks to menopause ovulation is all over the place so my trigger is myself. Not red wine, not cheese, not gluten. Although none of those help. But thanks triggers are always the first place to start. After 30 years of beating myself up for eating this or that though I give up and eat whatever I want because it's going to happen or it's not. And if you're a migraine sufferer. It's not your fault.


Oy, that's a pain. I've been getting migraines since 13 and only within the past 3 years have they changed in behavior. For me, certain foods trigger them as can certain scents so that was part of why I asked if you tried the diet thing. I do know everyone's different though. 

I'm not near menopause age yet but I'm not looking forward to those years either.


----------



## LilyJo

Numbers are looking scary here in the uk and we're now on lockdown. Only allowed out for essentials for at least three weeks - have to go get groceries tomorrow and tbh I don't want to go. Feel quite safe tucked upon my house keeping myself busy.

I so hope the US doesn't go the way its being predicted, tbh I hope nowhere ends up like Itaky or Spain, it doesn't bear thinking about.

Trying to keep busy,turning out cupboards, repainting walls and planning a new website  - anything other than endless news!!


----------



## Dru B.

Dahila said:


> yes but I cut it short to two weeks,  now I am on self isolation and going insane,  on day 6th.  I am happy i got home ,  In poland they closed everything,  To be locked even with lovely family is not my idea of vacation. So far I am good .


At least you got to go on your trip. Sounds like we are on the same schedule. I got back late last Wednesday night, now on day six of self-isolating/stay-at-home mandate. All good here too.


----------



## Dahila

Dru B. said:


> At least you got to go on your trip. Sounds like we are on the same schedule. I got back late last Wednesday night, now on day six of self-isolating/stay-at-home mandate. All good here too.


same Wensday, actually Thursday at 2 pm.


----------



## bookreader451

The introvert in me is liking the socia


Lin19687 said:


> snow came last night   Welcome to New England where it is sunny and getting warm then WHAM, Not so fast Lucy !
> I was hoping to play a little more in the garden this week


We got about 6 inches here.  My backyard is still covered but it melted off the driveway and patio.  I was looking at my plants popping up and boom just a reminder it is still March.



LilyJo said:


> Numbers are looking scary here in the uk and we're now on lockdown. Only allowed out for essentials for at least three weeks - have to go get groceries tomorrow and tbh I don't want to go. Feel quite safe tucked upon my house keeping myself busy.
> 
> I so hope the US doesn't go the way its being predicted, tbh I hope nowhere ends up like Itaky or Spain, it doesn't bear thinking about.
> 
> Trying to keep busy,turning out cupboards, repainting walls and planning a new website  - anything other than endless news!!


I am in upstate NY and my kids are in NYC.  I am freaked about the way it is going here.  I treat every person and object outside my home like it has plague and we are 14th century England.  I sprayed a package with alcohol and left it outside for another 20 minutes, then sprayed the contents.  My anxiety level is about 12 on a 10 scale. I have been having nightmares and I even dreamed my deceased mother and aunt picked me up.


----------



## The Bubble Fairy

Here in New Zealand we are heading into a nationwide lockdown as of midnight. Thank God we have a sensible leader and government who take the virus seriously.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

atiz said:


> UVA is planning to close all its bio labs as well sometime in the near future. They haven't told us yet when exactly, but they asked everyone to be prepared.
> (I'm on the humanities side so it doesn't affect me directly... but it is still very discouraging. We haven't been allowed in the office for more than a week now either, but at least in theory all we need is a pen and a piece of paper.)
> Hope you all are staying safe!



I’m getting a sense that the governor is talking to the universities in Virginia and I’m sure the uni presidents are talking to each other.  Things are mostly happening in lock step, or close.

Does being socially isolated inspire you to put pen to paper?  I am old enough to have written my Master’s thesis on paper first!  

I’m staying home and so is my partner, so my exposure risk is about as low as it can be.  You stay safe, too!



MGM said:


> The funny thing is, this is my entire job. I feel like I've been inadvertently preparing for a pandemic my entire life...



Our IT folks have been performing miracles for a couple of weeks now as the faculty moved all of the courses online.  It sounds like you’re on the higher ed front line, too.  Bless you!



bookreader451 said:


> I am in upstate NY and my kids are in NYC.  I am freaked about the way it is going here.  I treat every person and object outside my home like it has plague and we are 14th century England.  I sprayed a package with alcohol and left it outside for another 20 minutes, then sprayed the contents.  My anxiety level is about 12 on a 10 scale. I have been having nightmares and I even dreamed my deceased mother and aunt picked me up.



I’m so sorry that you’re feeling this way.  The NYC situation is not good, but hopefully your kids are being careful and following all the precautions.  NY has also done a lot of testing, which is good, but also scary.


----------



## MGM

Mobjack Bay said:


> Our IT folks have been performing miracles for a couple of weeks now as the faculty moved all of the courses online.  It sounds like you’re on the higher ed front line, too.  Bless you!



Yes, I'm instructional technology rather than information technology (i.e., education support, not tech support), but am very very busy. The funny thing is, in some ways, my colleagues and I are the worst people to help because we have a particular standard we work to in our online courses and there's no way we can come even close in these times. We usually take the better part of a year, working with faculty, to build a course, and each of us works on 6-12 courses per year. So now, to turn 500 courses over for May 11 seems crazy. 
But it's a fun challenge to meet people where they are and help them. Poor profs have so much on their plate right now :-(


----------



## Mobjack Bay

MGM said:


> Yes, I'm instructional technology rather than information technology (i.e., education support, not tech support), but am very very busy. The funny thing is, in some ways, my colleagues and I are the worst people to help because we have a particular standard we work to in our online courses and there's no way we can come even close in these times. We usually take the better part of a year, working with faculty, to build a course, and each of us works on 6-12 courses per year. So now, to turn 500 courses over for May 11 seems crazy.
> But it's a fun challenge to meet people where they are and help them. Poor profs have so much on their plate right now :-(


My characterization of our situation wasn’t as crisp as it should have been .  We went online and remote.  That was something like 3500 courses altogether.  I can only imagine how much time and effort it takes to build a quality online course.  My last class was yesterday, and all I had to do for it was figure out how to use Zoom breakout rooms.


----------



## MGM

Mobjack Bay said:


> My characterization of our situation wasn’t as crisp as it should have been .  We went online and remote.  That was something like 3500 courses altogether.  I can only imagine how much time and effort it takes to build a quality online course.  My last class was yesterday, and all I had to do for it was figure out how to use Zoom breakout rooms.


3500, that is seriously impressive. I don't know how many we had....maybe they never told us 'cause they didn't want us to worry 
What are y'all doing about final exams? That's a biggie....


----------



## Mobjack Bay

MGM said:


> 3500, that is seriously impressive. I don't know how many we had....maybe they never told us 'cause they didn't want us to worry
> What are y'all doing about final exams? That's a biggie....


I don’t think the conversation has gotten very far for the undergrad program.  The school I’m in is on a satellite campus, with graduate level, science students only.  So far our core course instructors are talking about open book exams with relatively short time windows for completion. The final exam style for those courses tends to be mostly short answer to medium length essay questions that can’t be answered without some actual thinking going on.  Past the core courses, most of our graduate courses require final projects or papers instead of exams.


----------



## Lin19687

bookreader451 said:


> The introvert in me is liking the social distancing



Me too !  LOL  Course now Everyone is home and the idjuts in my neighborhood are now irritating me more {roll eyes}
Good news is I can eat a Whole can of Boston Baked Beans when ever I want   hahahhaha

Our snow is gone so I will try and get to the compost place today so I can finish filling my garden.  Just saw neighbors CAT in my NEW garden bed grrrrr.  THAT will end fast


----------



## atiz

Mobjack Bay said:


> Does being socially isolated inspire you to put pen to paper?  I am old enough to have written my Master’s thesis on paper first!



Haha, I wish.... where I have gotten so far is to try limit my social media procrastination to about an hour a day  (Which is still definitely way more than it should be, but one step at a time.) 
Wow, a whole MA thesis on paper! That's really impressive. I used to find it easier to write on paper too, and I still sometimes suspect that I'm a better writer on paper than on the screen. Maybe I should try it again! I'm just really not used to working from home so it has been kind of a struggle. Not even a coffee shop :/
Glad your Zoom class went well! I also had my first one last week; it wasn't a disaster but also wasn't great. Hopefully things improve a bit as we get used to how all this works. I'm still pretty lucky compared to some since only have a small class.


----------



## rdc1978

Lin19687 said:


> Me too !  LOL  Course now Everyone is home and the idjuts in my neighborhood are now irritating me more {roll eyes}
> Good news is I can eat a Whole can of Boston Baked Beans when ever I want   hahahhaha
> 
> Our snow is gone so I will try and get to the compost place today so I can finish filling my garden.  Just saw neighbors CAT in my NEW garden bed grrrrr.  THAT will end fast



LOL, true story.  I once worked with a woman who literally ate a can of black beans everyday for lunch.  I don't think she heated them up.  Straight out of the can.  

It wasn't a big deal, just kinda funny.


----------



## Dahila

I got question;  how do you clean your debit or credit cards?  is it safe to use 70% RA on it?


----------



## Kcryss

MGM said:


> Yes, I'm instructional technology rather than information technology (i.e., education support, not tech support), (


I don't work for a university, but I'm on the IT side ... and it's very very very busy. Blessed to have the work, but it's been insane.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Dahila said:


> I got question;  how do you clean your debit or credit cards?  is it safe to use 70% RA on it?



Ive been spraying mine with Clorox cleanup and letting them sit for an hour or so.


----------



## Dahila

Jersey Girl said:


> Ive been spraying mine with Clorox cleanup and letting them sit for an hour or so.


i have only alcohol in house,  eh this is why the question


----------



## bookreader451

Dahila said:


> I got question;  how do you clean your debit or credit cards?  is it safe to use 70% RA on it?


I have been carrying wipes with me and wiping them down after I use it.


----------



## Dahila

thanks will make wet with RA 70% wipes to take with me to the store,  I should not plan yet cause I am on 7th day of quarantine,  I hope I will be ok, so everyone else


----------



## Lin19687

I just sprayed with 91% alc on my CC's, jacket, put some on a towel and did the door handles and such


----------



## Obsidian

Dahila said:


> i have only alcohol in house,  eh this is why the question



I used hand sanitizer on mine with no issue, alcohol should be ok. It might remove your signature though.
I also sanitized my keys, wallet and outside of purse.
I generally use clorox wipes for things like that.


----------



## Lin19687

I have Corned Beef and Cabbage in the Crock pot today.
House smells yummy !


----------



## msunnerstood

Lin19687 said:


> I have Corned Beef and Cabbage in the Crock pot today.
> House smells yummy !



I wonder if Driving to Lins house counts as essential travel?


----------



## Misschief

msunnerstood said:


> I wonder if Driving to Lins house counts as essential travel?


I would think it would qualify. I can almost smell it from here!


----------



## Lin19687

msunnerstood said:


> I wonder if Driving to Lins house counts as essential travel?


Why, Yes, Yes it does ;-)

Smells so good, but not done yet.  And I can't use Carrots   as DD is 'allergic' to them


----------



## Obsidian

My state just got a shelter in place order. I'm glad of this but also a bit stressed, just makes it more real.

Not sure if my husbands job is considered essential, waiting for a call back from the governors office. 
Part of me really wants him at home, those guys always work sick. Part of me dreads having him home that long lol.


----------



## Lin19687

Obsidian said:


> My state just got a shelter in place order. I'm glad of this but also a bit stressed, just makes it more real.
> 
> Not sure if my husbands job is considered essential, waiting for a call back from the governors office.
> Part of me really wants him at home, those guys always work sick. Part of me dreads having him home that long lol.


Just ask him to stay home.  Tell him you are worried, I am sure he will understand.  Many Gov offices are letting staff stay home just for this reason.


----------



## dibbles

We'll be having a stay at home in place starting Friday. Also, I am a member of the Y which has been closed for a couple of weeks now. I had a call from someone there as they are contacting all of their members to see if anyone needed anything. I told her I didn't, and she said if I know of anyone that has a need to think of the Y as a resource. That they might be able to help. What a nice gesture.

@Obsidian just wait until you are both retired, it's winter and you are both cooped up a LOT. It's an adjustment. I love him dearly, but some days I find a lot to do in my soap room.


----------



## Obsidian

Lin19687 said:


> Just ask him to stay home.  Tell him you are worried, I am sure he will understand.  Many Gov offices are letting staff stay home just for this reason.



Unfortunately, he can't just stay home. If the mill is open, he has to be their to keep it running. 
He would have to quit or the mill would have to close.


----------



## Misschief

dibbles said:


> just wait until you are both retired, it's winter and you are both cooped up a LOT. It's an adjustment. I love him dearly, but some days I find a lot to do in my soap room.


That's what I'm dreading. I love him dearly but, seriously, I'm at Day 2 of being home and I already wonder what he does besides sit at his computer studying the stock market and reading Twitter. However, we did go for a walk today and he did fix the weed eater. As soon as  he's back from getting smokes, though, I'm sure he'll be back at his computer. In some ways, I'm not looking towards retiring considering we live in a 2 bedroom suite. In other ways, I can't wait!


----------



## KiwiMoose

Some cool photos of NZ in lockdown 
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/he...bPpbIjc3L9MD1cNRer2y91KY9xoXNG6G6TPgyWfhG5B4I


----------



## Mobjack Bay

KiwiMoose said:


> Some cool photos of NZ in lockdown
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/he...bPpbIjc3L9MD1cNRer2y91KY9xoXNG6G6TPgyWfhG5B4I


Lots of clean fresh city air all around the globe!


----------



## Quilter99755

We have been retired since 2006 and for the most part it hasn't been bad.  Until now.  It was bad enough a couple weeks ago when most of our outside activities were cancelled as they were held at churches, old folk centers or libraries.  Now the state has put out a 21 day notice to shelter in place. Between soaping, quilting and reading...and of course household chores...my days are full. Now it seems like every 30 minutes or so Hubby needs to reassure himself that I am still there, he is alive and kicking or some item in the news needs to be told to me in person.  I'm looking at places to hide the body!  I certainly hope it is just a case of cabin fever...if not it's gonna be a long 21 days.  Sure is good that I love him...at least for now


----------



## Kcryss

Quilter99755 said:


> We have been retired since 2006 and for the most part it hasn't been bad.  Until now.  It was bad enough a couple weeks ago when most of our outside activities were cancelled as they were held at churches, old folk centers or libraries.  Now the state has put out a 21 day notice to shelter in place. Between soaping, quilting and reading...and of course household chores...my days are full. Now it seems like every 30 minutes or so Hubby needs to reassure himself that I am still there, he is alive and kicking or some item in the news needs to be told to me in person.  I'm looking at places to hide the body!  I certainly hope it is just a case of cabin fever...if not it's gonna be a long 21 days.  Sure is good that I love him...at least for now


----------



## Obsidian

Quilter99755 said:


> We have been retired since 2006 and for the most part it hasn't been bad.  Until now.  It was bad enough a couple weeks ago when most of our outside activities were cancelled as they were held at churches, old folk centers or libraries.  Now the state has put out a 21 day notice to shelter in place. Between soaping, quilting and reading...and of course household chores...my days are full. Now it seems like every 30 minutes or so Hubby needs to reassure himself that I am still there, he is alive and kicking or some item in the news needs to be told to me in person.  I'm looking at places to hide the body!  I certainly hope it is just a case of cabin fever...if not it's gonna be a long 21 days.  Sure is good that I love him...at least for now



I feel for you. Hubby has a long time before retirement but at times I dread it. He keeps himself busy outside on his days off but he doesn't have any inside hobbies for when he is older.
Even long weekends can be tiring when he is sitting around bored. I finally chased him outside today.
Curious, what part of idaho are you in? I'm in the panhandle not far from Canada.


----------



## penelopejane

I found this article helpful. Some of you might too. 
it’s from the Harvard Business Review: 
https://hbr.org/2020/03/that-discomfort-youre-feeling-is-grief


----------



## Lin19687

In MASS-  2,417 confirmed cases, 579 new cases from yesterday.  Thankfully our death toll is only at 25


----------



## KiwiMoose

We are lucky in New Zealand - no deaths so far.  283 cases but it going up each day by about 40 - 50.  Hopefully with the enforced lockdown we can now stop the spread.  My 12 year old son in with his Dad for the next two weeks!!  We can FaceTime every night but I wish I could give him a cuddle.


----------



## penelopejane

Quilter99755 said:


> We have been retired since 2006 and for the most part it hasn't been bad.  Until now.  It was bad enough a couple weeks ago when most of our outside activities were cancelled as they were held at churches, old folk centers or libraries.  Now the state has put out a 21 day notice to shelter in place. Between soaping, quilting and reading...and of course household chores...my days are full. Now it seems like every 30 minutes or so Hubby needs to reassure himself that I am still there, he is alive and kicking or some item in the news needs to be told to me in person.  I'm looking at places to hide the body!  I certainly hope it is just a case of cabin fever...if not it's gonna be a long 21 days.  Sure is good that I love him...at least for now


I think a lot of us need a bit of reassurance at times like this. The Stockmarket is plunging and your government does not come across as having a coordinated message about corona virus. It is frightening and unsettling for a lot of people. Even for us in Oz the mixed messages coming from the US are unsettling.

I know it’s difficult for you to be extra patient with your DH when you must be feeling unsettled too. But I think that might be what he might need right now.

I am trying not to read the news but can’t help myself.


----------



## Steve85569

I'm wondering how long I have to shelter in place. When the order came the wife was outside and she's getting really MAD.


Should I let her in?


----------



## MGM

Dahila said:


> thanks will make wet with RA 70% wipes to take with me to the store,  I should not plan yet cause I am on 7th day of quarantine,  I hope I will be ok, so everyone else


I'm on Day 8! And it feels like I will never touch a credit card again....Other than the $600 for 2 online grocery orders I've made (for future groceries...pick up dates Sunday and then April 6th!), I haven't spent a dime in the past week!
We did get an order of shoes for my son today, so I put a $5 tip in an envelope taped to the door for the delivery person...sprayed the bill with alcohol and handled everything with gloves. Noticed part-way through the day that the shoes were here and the tip was gone, so I hope the right guy got it and not some rando passing by....


----------



## KiwiMoose

I can't believe how much my husband swears when he's working!!! F bombs dropping all over the place - even the dog has come huddling under my feet for shelter.


----------



## Jersey Girl

penelopejane said:


> I found this article helpful. Some of you might too.
> it’s from the Harvard Business Review:
> https://hbr.org/2020/03/that-discomfort-youre-feeling-is-grief



Thank you for sharing this.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

The bright spot in my day yesterday came from catching up on how medical researchers and other scientists are responding to the pressing need for treatments, management strategies and, ultimately, a vaccine to combat this virus.  They’re using two websites (medRXiv and bioRXiv) to share potentially important information in advance of peer review and publication.  One paper reported that a small group of very sick people in China recovered rapidly after being transfused with blood plasma from people who had recovered from the virus. That information was mobilized quickly and the approach will now be tested more widely, as reported in the NY Times, here. If it works, it will help keep doctors and nurses safer and help the sickest of people to survive.  Although the world seems to have missed the opportunity to control this virus until a vaccine is developed, mathematical modelers are exploring ways to control outbreaks once rapid testing is available to confirm who has been infected. That would let people in many areas get back to a level of normalcy in daily life. People all over the world are letting scientists use their home computers (linking them together via the internet) to run some of the models and super computers are being used to search through massive databases to look for drugs that might be able to attack a weak spot in the virus.  Science leaders are calling for all scientists to seek ways to help those who are doing critical research on vaccines. Something as simple as childcare could make it possible for a researcher to stay in the lab doing an experiment that leads to a breakthrough.


----------



## SmockingRN

I am just getting over feeling sick and having a bad, dry cough x 6 days. Only had a trace of temp 99*. I live in Louisiana in a small rural community. Testing is limited to those who have high fevers and severe symptoms. I guess  am lucky to be getting over it so easy. Am so ready to get back to sewing and soaping, maybe tomorrow!


----------



## Mobjack Bay

SmockingRN said:


> I am just getting over feeling sick and having a bad, dry cough x 6 days. Only had a trace of temp 99*. I live in Louisiana in a small rural community. Testing is limited to those who have high fevers and severe symptoms. I guess  am lucky to be getting over it so easy. Am so ready to get back to sewing and soaping, maybe tomorrow!


It must be kind of freeing to be past an infection.  I’m glad to hear that you’re okay.  It sounds like NOLA is on its ways to becoming the next epicenter.


----------



## lovdatsoap

LilyJo said:


> With this now seemingly spreading swiftly around the world,  I wondered whether any of our members are directly or indirectly affected?


  Plain old soap works best  here is the scientific reason we can use to explain to others why we love real soap
hy does soap work so well on the Sars-CoV-2, the coronavirus and indeed most viruses? The short story: because the virus is a self-assembled nanoparticle in which the weakest link is the lipid (fatty) bilayer. Soap dissolves the fat membrane and the virus falls apart like a house of cards and dies – or rather, we should say it becomes inactive as viruses aren’t really alive.

The slightly longer story is that most viruses consist of three key building blocks: ribonucleic acid (RNA), proteins and lipids. A virus-infected cell makes lots of these building blocks, which then spontaneously self-assemble to form the virus. Critically, there are no strong covalent bonds holding these units together, which means you do not necessarily need harsh chemicals to split those units apart. When an infected cell dies, all these new viruses escape and go on to infect other cells. Some end up also in the airways of lungs.

 You can’t, for any price, get a drug for the coronavirus – but your grandmother’s bar of soap kills it
When you cough, or especially when you sneeze, tiny droplets from the airways can fly up to 10 metres. The larger ones are thought to be the main coronavirus carriers and they can go at least two metres.

These tiny droplets end on surfaces and often dry out quickly. But the viruses remain active. Human skin is an ideal surface for a virus. It is “organic” and the proteins and fatty acids in the dead cells on the surface interact with the virus.

When you touch, say, a steel surface with a virus particle on it, it will stick to your skin and hence get transferred on to your hands. If you then touch your face, especially your eyes, nostrils or mouth, you can get infected. And it turns out that most people touch their face once every two to five minutes.

Washing the virus off with water alone might work. But water is not good at competing with the strong, glue-like interactions between the skin and the virus. Water isn’t enough.

Soapy water is totally different. Soap contains fat-like substances known as amphiphiles, some of which are structurally very similar to the lipids in the virus membrane. The soap molecules “compete” with the lipids in the virus membrane. This is more or less how soap also removes normal dirt from the skin.

The soap not only loosens the “glue” between the virus and the skin but also the Velcro-like interactions that hold the proteins, lipids and RNA in the virus together.  
Pall Thordarson is a professor of chemistry at the University of New South Wales, Sydney


----------



## themadsoaper

Quilter99755 said:


> We have been retired since 2006 and for the most part it hasn't been bad.  Until now.  It was bad enough a couple weeks ago when most of our outside activities were cancelled as they were held at churches, old folk centers or libraries.  Now the state has put out a 21 day notice to shelter in place. Between soaping, quilting and reading...and of course household chores...my days are full. Now it seems like every 30 minutes or so Hubby needs to reassure himself that I am still there, he is alive and kicking or some item in the news needs to be told to me in person.  I'm looking at places to hide the body!  I certainly hope it is just a case of cabin fever...if not it's gonna be a long 21 days.  Sure is good that I love him...at least for now


Take him to the vet and Have him put to sleep lol lol


----------



## Misschief

lovdatsoap said:


> Plain old soap works best  here is the scientific reason we can use to explain to others why we love real soap
> hy does soap work so well on the Sars-CoV-2, the coronavirus and indeed most viruses? The short story: because the virus is a self-assembled nanoparticle in which the weakest link is the lipid (fatty) bilayer. Soap dissolves the fat membrane and the virus falls apart like a house of cards and dies – or rather, we should say it becomes inactive as viruses aren’t really alive.
> 
> The slightly longer story is that most viruses consist of three key building blocks: ribonucleic acid (RNA), proteins and lipids. A virus-infected cell makes lots of these building blocks, which then spontaneously self-assemble to form the virus. Critically, there are no strong covalent bonds holding these units together, which means you do not necessarily need harsh chemicals to split those units apart. When an infected cell dies, all these new viruses escape and go on to infect other cells. Some end up also in the airways of lungs.
> 
> You can’t, for any price, get a drug for the coronavirus – but your grandmother’s bar of soap kills it
> When you cough, or especially when you sneeze, tiny droplets from the airways can fly up to 10 metres. The larger ones are thought to be the main coronavirus carriers and they can go at least two metres.
> 
> These tiny droplets end on surfaces and often dry out quickly. But the viruses remain active. Human skin is an ideal surface for a virus. It is “organic” and the proteins and fatty acids in the dead cells on the surface interact with the virus.
> 
> When you touch, say, a steel surface with a virus particle on it, it will stick to your skin and hence get transferred on to your hands. If you then touch your face, especially your eyes, nostrils or mouth, you can get infected. And it turns out that most people touch their face once every two to five minutes.
> 
> Washing the virus off with water alone might work. But water is not good at competing with the strong, glue-like interactions between the skin and the virus. Water isn’t enough.
> 
> Soapy water is totally different. Soap contains fat-like substances known as amphiphiles, some of which are structurally very similar to the lipids in the virus membrane. The soap molecules “compete” with the lipids in the virus membrane. This is more or less how soap also removes normal dirt from the skin.
> 
> The soap not only loosens the “glue” between the virus and the skin but also the Velcro-like interactions that hold the proteins, lipids and RNA in the virus together.
> Pall Thordarson is a professor of chemistry at the University of New South Wales, Sydney


Sorry to sound snarky but how did this answer the quoted question?


----------



## bookreader451

KiwiMoose said:


> We are lucky in New Zealand - no deaths so far.  283 cases but it going up each day by about 40 - 50.  Hopefully with the enforced lockdown we can now stop the spread.  My 12 year old son in with his Dad for the next two weeks!!  We can FaceTime every night but I wish I could give him a cuddle.


My kids are in NYC and even though I know they are working from home I worry every minute for them.  My daughter has been texting pictures of the meals she is making and we had an intense brainstorming session regarding cookie making and the lack of all purpose flour.  I convinced her macarons using almond flour was a better idea than hunting for all purpose.


----------



## DeeAnna

Misschief said:


> Sorry...



That post is this person's first post. I've noticed new people sometimes don't always know how to use the "reply" button, and sometimes things don't turn out quite right while they're figuring things out.

Many of us are feeling stressed, afraid, and grieving. I'm trying to cut everyone a little slack.


----------



## Misschief

DeeAnna said:


> That post is this person's first post. I've noticed new people sometimes don't always know how to use the "reply" button, and sometimes things don't turn out quite right while they're figuring things out.
> 
> Many of us are feeling stressed, afraid, and grieving. I'm trying to cut everyone a little slack.


That's why I qualified my question... I seriously didn't intend to sound snarky. I was just a little confused by the response.


----------



## Arimara

bookreader451 said:


> My kids are in NYC and even though I know they are working from home I worry every minute for them.  My daughter has been texting pictures of the meals she is making and we had an intense brainstorming session regarding cookie making and the lack of all purpose flour.  I convinced her macarons using almond flour was a better idea than hunting for all purpose.


That reminds me that I need to venture off to the stores to see what they have. I also want to wash a load of clothes. Fun Times.


----------



## Quilter99755

Obsidian said:


> I feel for you. Hubby has a long time before retirement but at times I dread it. He keeps himself busy outside on his days off but he doesn't have any inside hobbies for when he is older.
> Even long weekends can be tiring when he is sitting around bored. I finally chased him outside today.
> Curious, what part of idaho are you in? I'm in the panhandle not far from Canada.


Just outside of Boise in the burbs.  My hubby had a hobby...used to make guitars and mandolins.  About 5 years back he got throat cancer and hasn't made any since then. I feel that some of it is that he hasn't worked with his hands for a while...use it or lose it is real at our ages. But some could also be the radiation he was given for the cancer...or something else to do with Agent Orange. At least he does have a workshop outside of the house and I can get him to go out there at least for a while. Hasn't happened since all this virus stuff. I think hobbies are a definite necessity for retirement. I know even with them I get bored...can't imagine what it would be like if I didn't have them.



penelopejane said:


> I think a lot of us need a bit of reassurance at times like this. The Stockmarket is plunging and your government does not come across as having a coordinated message about corona virus. It is frightening and unsettling for a lot of people. Even for us in Oz the mixed messages coming from the US are unsettling.
> 
> I know it’s difficult for you to be extra patient with your DH when you must be feeling unsettled too. But I think that might be what he might need right now.
> 
> I am trying not to read the news but can’t help myself.


I am being nice to the old guy!  LOL  It's just nice to have a place to vent that he won't see! 

I do the finances in our household so I know watching the news is contributing to the problem. I have this attitude that if I can't do something to prevent a problem then I let it go.  He cannot do that and since he doesn't understand the finances it is even more scary to him. And now all of his music events have been cancelled so he doesn't have the community that he normally has. He is way more of an extrovert than me, so now I get to be his "everything".  This too shall pass. If the weather keeps warming up he will have the lawn to mow at least! LOL


----------



## themadsoaper

bookreader451 said:


> My kids are in NYC and even though I know they are working from home I worry every minute for them.  My daughter has been texting pictures of the meals she is making and we had an intense brainstorming session regarding cookie making and the lack of all purpose flour.  I convinced her macarons using almond flour was a better idea than hunting for all purpose.


I am praying for your children


----------



## StormyK

themadsoaper said:


> I am praying for your children



I'm praying for my own. 
Week two of lockdown with a 2.5 year old and his survival is looking more and more questionable...

As an aside, have you guys seen the covid-19 map being maintained by John Hopkins University? Its pretty amazing if you haven't...

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


----------



## Kcryss

StormyK said:


> As an aside, have you guys seen the covid-19 map being maintained by John Hopkins University? Its pretty amazing if you haven't...
> 
> https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


That's the one I watch every day ... sad to see that the US has now surpassed China in number of confirmed cases. Watching the numbers in Italy is very sad.


----------



## Jeboz

KiwiMoose said:


> I can't believe how much my husband swears when he's working!!! F bombs dropping all over the place - even the dog has come huddling under my feet for shelter.



My friend gave me a blow by blow account of one of her husband's business calls yesterday morning from their new office. Same!


----------



## Arimara

Kcryss said:


> That's the one I watch every day ... sad to see that the US has now surpassed China in number of confirmed cases. Watching the numbers in Italy is very sad.


Part of that may have to do with our culture and what not. It didn't really hit home for many Americans until it literally hit home.


----------



## Kcryss

Arimara said:


> Part of that may have to do with our culture and what not. It didn't really hit home for many Americans until it literally hit home.


Sadly, I agree with you. I've had to explain it to sooo many people it's amazing that they didn't understand the impact of spreading the virus to others.


----------



## Arimara

Kcryss said:


> Sadly, I agree with you. I've had to explain it to sooo many people it's amazing that they didn't understand the impact of spreading the virus to others.


People my age and younger have gotten their butts kicked by the coronavirus apparently. It's not like the chicken pox at all.


----------



## bookreader451

StormyK said:


> As an aside, have you guys seen the covid-19 map being maintained by John Hopkins University? Its pretty amazing if you haven't...
> 
> https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6


Corona has a 4.5% death rate so far using the number from that site.  It is probably lower since many are not tested but have the disease.  Imagine if 30% of the world's population gets corona, using those numbers that means 94,500,000 dead.


----------



## lovdatsoap

Misschief said:


> Sorry to sound snarky but how did this answer the quoted question?



Sorry I should have made it more clear
Young folk want what is bew better not what was used by their grandparents 
Plain bar soap is seen less and less in the home 

Soap makers provide soap as a tool in this fight against the virus -that is over shadowed by other items in advertising world 

In this fight against the virus —what ran out first in the stores and online was ..sanitizers and spray Folks forgot about soap in the initial apocalypse buying craze

The chemist said the soap lather actually has an advantages as it can get to crevices  that other things might miss

So a soap maker is actually a fighter in this battle not only with soap but education
That is how it directly impacts us
I have been in homes that have no liquid soap except in the kitchen and have sanitizers and paper towels  in restrooms because it has a more modern more hygienic public perception

Many of the folks I know under 3o are not about soap first but rely on sanitizer as first 

My daughter is all about sanitizer and is very tidy , uses spray  and does have some liquid soap 
This  virus already went through her house   Hitting three of the four .Her perception was soap was not as strong
I do not think she could have stopped it as her kids had it first 


Luckily she was ok  It did kick off her  asthma  ( and 20 drugstores has no neb refills )w all the coughing but she is on the mend  She had all the symptoms :GI symptoms and upper resp issues plus fever 7-9 days and cough remains
  Her two young kids only had minimal versions  They brought it home from school and had it first  Hard for moms of young kids as they have to care for their ill kids 
Both her husband and myself reminded her to get extra neb meds when this started but she thought she had outgrown it


----------



## Relle

A Professor/Microbiologist from a University here, said 2 days ago that soap and sanitizer are on par with each other as far as effectiveness is concerned. Hospitals he said have been using sanitizer for 10 -20 yrs because it's easier to have beside the bedside instead of going to the sink all the time.


----------



## lovdatsoap

Relle said:


> A Professor/Microbiologist from a University here, said 2 days ago that soap and sanitizer are on par with each other as far as effectiveness is concerned. Hospitals he said have been using sanitizer for 10 -20 yrs because it's easier to have beside the bedside instead of going to the sink all the time.


Yes sanitizer is  a good thing
 I work in a hospital and the expectation is no more than12-15 x of sanitizer before one  uses soap and for certain isolation reasons (like c-diff for example) Sanitizer  Is not used -only soap
I do think on a positive note that this will raise hand hygiene and skin hygiene awareness globally  hopefully forever
The NY md who posted his famius YouTube of ed for others said hand to face was the most common route
and stated how many times we touch our face without thinking
I think we will never go out again to a public restroom  on a trip ,without our backup in our purse after this


----------



## msunnerstood

One interesting thing that has come out of home confinement is that Ive read 3 books in the last 24 hours.  I havent read that much since before I had kids.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

msunnerstood said:


> One interesting thing that has come out of home confinement is that Ive read 3 books in the last 24 hours.  I havent read that much since before I had kids.


WOW!! I recently started a new book and am only halfway done. Of course, I think I would get a lot more reading done if the kiddos weren't so demanding... I mean darn cute!


----------



## msunnerstood

MarnieSoapien said:


> WOW!! I recently started a new book and am only halfway done. Of course, I think I would get a lot more reading done if the kiddos weren't so demanding... I mean darn cute!


My kids are grown and I was off of work this week so besides the dogs being really cute I had a little extra time LOL. I've never been able to just read a few chapters and put the book down and come back to it later I'm kind of an obsessive reader when I get started


----------



## patty smigiel

lovdatsoap said:


> Plain old soap works best  here is the scientific reason we can use to explain to others why we love real soap
> hy does soap work so well on the Sars-CoV-2, the coronavirus and indeed most viruses? The short story: because the virus is a self-assembled nanoparticle in which the weakest link is the lipid (fatty) bilayer. Soap dissolves the fat membrane and the virus falls apart like a house of cards and dies – or rather, we should say it becomes inactive as viruses aren’t really alive.
> 
> The slightly longer story is that most viruses consist of three key building blocks: ribonucleic acid (RNA), proteins and lipids. A virus-infected cell makes lots of these building blocks, which then spontaneously self-assemble to form the virus. Critically, there are no strong covalent bonds holding these units together, which means you do not necessarily need harsh chemicals to split those units apart. When an infected cell dies, all these new viruses escape and go on to infect other cells. Some end up also in the airways of lungs.
> 
> You can’t, for any price, get a drug for the coronavirus – but your grandmother’s bar of soap kills it
> When you cough, or especially when you sneeze, tiny droplets from the airways can fly up to 10 metres. The larger ones are thought to be the main coronavirus carriers and they can go at least two metres.
> 
> These tiny droplets end on surfaces and often dry out quickly. But the viruses remain active. Human skin is an ideal surface for a virus. It is “organic” and the proteins and fatty acids in the dead cells on the surface interact with the virus.
> 
> When you touch, say, a steel surface with a virus particle on it, it will stick to your skin and hence get transferred on to your hands. If you then touch your face, especially your eyes, nostrils or mouth, you can get infected. And it turns out that most people touch their face once every two to five minutes.
> 
> Washing the virus off with water alone might work. But water is not good at competing with the strong, glue-like interactions between the skin and the virus. Water isn’t enough.
> 
> Soapy water is totally different. Soap contains fat-like substances known as amphiphiles, some of which are structurally very similar to the lipids in the virus membrane. The soap molecules “compete” with the lipids in the virus membrane. This is more or less how soap also removes normal dirt from the skin.
> 
> The soap not only loosens the “glue” between the virus and the skin but also the Velcro-like interactions that hold the proteins, lipids and RNA in the virus together.
> Pall Thordarson is a professor of chemistry at the University of New South Wales, Sydney


Very interesting.  Thank you!


----------



## Arimara

Things like this is why I am not quick to sing my governor's, much less that mayor's praises.


----------



## shunt2011

We’re at  over 3700 cases and 92 deaths. Our hospital system is over stressed with so many sick patients at level 3 pandemic.   We are about out of respirators.  It’s assumed we have all been exposed and many including me are exhibiting symptoms. Fortunately they are not serious serious. Most cough, fever, loss of taste and smell and some are experiencing vomiting and body aches as well. Everyone is required to wear masks. We are tested at the door before entering.  I can’t understand people not taking this serious.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Arimara said:


> Things like this is why I am not quick to sing my governor's, much less that mayor's praises.




This is horrible!  I would lose my mind!


----------



## Arimara

Jersey Girl said:


> This is horrible!  I would lose my mind!


If I had not known people who grew up in the projects, any of them, I'd be more shocked than I am mad. And I am mad. On my end, I will look into that more.


----------



## Lin19687

Arimara said:


> Things like this is why I am not quick to sing my governor's, much less that mayor's praises.




I want to say that 1, she didn't say how long the Hot water was out, but the Water was only out for 1 hour.  There may be a main break or 100 other things.  I find it hard to believe that this is not being adressed.

2) where is the update at the end of this?  It was posted on the 24th, no update and I can only assume it was fixed.

Did you find any info on this after you posted it?


----------



## penelopejane

Quilter99755 said:


> Just outside of Boise in the burbs.  My hubby had a hobby...used to make guitars and mandolins.  About 5 years back he got throat cancer and hasn't made any since then. I feel that some of it is that he hasn't worked with his hands for a while...use it or lose it is real at our ages. But some could also be the radiation he was given for the cancer...or something else to do with Agent Orange. At least he does have a workshop outside of the house and I can get him to go out there at least for a while. Hasn't happened since all this virus stuff. I think hobbies are a definite necessity for retirement. I know even with them I get bored...can't imagine what it would be like if I didn't have them.
> 
> 
> I am being nice to the old guy!  LOL  It's just nice to have a place to vent that he won't see!
> 
> I do the finances in our household so I know watching the news is contributing to the problem. I have this attitude that if I can't do something to prevent a problem then I let it go.  He cannot do that and since he doesn't understand the finances it is even more scary to him. And now all of his music events have been cancelled so he doesn't have the community that he normally has. He is way more of an extrovert than me, so now I get to be his "everything".  This too shall pass. If the weather keeps warming up he will have the lawn to mow at least! LOL


Yes, all that is very tough on you. 
Such a difficult time. This too will pass us a great philosophy but doesn’t it seem endless at the moment! 
Best wishes to you both.



Relle said:


> A Professor/Microbiologist from a University here, said 2 days ago that soap and sanitizer are on par with each other as far as effectiveness is concerned. Hospitals he said have been using sanitizer for 10 -20 yrs because it's easier to have beside the bedside instead of going to the sink all the time.


It is but I read that if you have any dirt on your hands sanitizer might not get under it.
Best advice I think is to use soap regularly and when you can but if not, use sanitiser. At hospitals it’s much quicker to use sanitiser at the end of beds but doctors regularly wash their hands between patients as well.

I find this is an easier to read Coronavirus chart. Also using John Hopkins figures.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Spain ignored the warnings and staged a huge women’s day rally and they estimate 2,000 people caught the virus at that event alone.

The news in NY and the spiralling number of hospital workers infected is so very sad.  A friend has her daughter and son in law working in NY at the moment - so scary. Thinking of all you New Yorkers.


----------



## Arimara

Lin19687 said:


> I want to say that 1, she didn't say how long the Hot water was out, but the Water was only out for 1 hour.  There may be a main break or 100 other things.  I find it hard to believe that this is not being adressed.
> 
> 2) where is the update at the end of this?  It was posted on the 24th, no update and I can only assume it was fixed.
> 
> Did you find any info on this after you posted it?



No Heat in the Taft Houses for Days
Thousands Were Without Water at Manhattan NYCHA complex

Not much to find but this is a common problem in much of the public housing. Whether you want to believe it or not, the video above shows what a huge amount of public housing tenants have to deal with. I've seen it first hand with my ex, I have some family who lived in these apartments, and I have met people who have dealt with some mess when it comes to NYCHA. Both articles are about the Taft Houses, which is further NW from where that lady in the video lives.

NYCHA Residents Sue City for Making Them Live In Unlivable Conditions

The above is the most recent I can find at the moment but not specific to the issue in the video. I get that some may think these people can just move out and find another place but then those same people are not thinking of those who genuinely cannot so as such.


----------



## DeeAnna

shunt2011 said:


> We’re at  over 3700 cases and 92 deaths. Our hospital system is over stressed with so many sick patients at level 3 pandemic.   We are about out of respirators.  It’s assumed we have all been exposed and many including me are exhibiting symptoms. Fortunately they are not serious serious. Most cough, fever, loss of taste and smell and some are experiencing vomiting and body aches as well. Everyone is required to wear masks. We are tested at the door before entering.  I can’t understand people not taking this serious.



Oh, Shari, I feel for you so. This is distressing to hear. I hope your symptoms don't get any worse than they are right now and you recover reasonably quickly. 

I think we're all eventually going to experience some version of what you're going through right now -- personal illness, illness of people around us, serious complications, loss of friends and family, upheaval, and grief. I would love to be wrong.


----------



## Lin19687

Arimara said:


> No Heat in the Taft Houses for Days
> Thousands Were Without Water at Manhattan NYCHA complex
> 
> Not much to find but this is a common problem in much of the public housing. Whether you want to believe it or not, the video above shows what a huge amount of public housing tenants have to deal with. I've seen it first hand with my ex, I have some family who lived in these apartments, and I have met people who have dealt with some mess when it comes to NYCHA. Both articles are about the Taft Houses, which is further NW from where that lady in the video lives.
> 
> NYCHA Residents Sue City for Making Them Live In Unlivable Conditions
> 
> The above is the most recent I can find at the moment but not specific to the issue in the video. I get that some may think these people can just move out and find another place but then those same people are not thinking of those who genuinely cannot so as such.



I get what you are saying BUT, this was a Water MAIN BREAK and they brought water in for them.  Not like they just shut off the water for no reason.  All but 3 (of the 9 buildings) had their water restored that night. 
All inner city housing have issues, it is the nature of the beast. I had friends that lived in housing I know the struggles on BOTH sides of the rent payment.
I am not saying this isn't bad but that 1st video sure made it sound like it was done on purpose which it wasn't.  I just hate to see videos like that without showing all that was done/reasons why it happened & what was done and when.

Back to the Virus numbers here.... 4,257 confirmed cases of C19 here as of today.  My work called and asked if I wanted to come in to do ToGo service,  ummmm  Nope, all those sicky people can just stay away from me.  Money wise it isn't worth it to me, I'll stay here TYVM


----------



## Arimara

Lin19687 said:


> I get what you are saying BUT, this was a Water MAIN BREAK and they brought water in for them.  Not like they just shut off the water for no reason.  All but 3 (of the 9 buildings) had their water restored that night.
> All inner city housing have issues, it is the nature of the beast. I had friends that lived in housing I know the struggles on BOTH sides of the rent payment.
> I am not saying this isn't bad but that 1st video sure made it sound like it was done on purpose which it wasn't.  I just hate to see videos like that without showing all that was done/reasons why it happened & what was done and when.
> 
> Back to the Virus numbers here.... 4,257 confirmed cases of C19 here as of today.  My work called and asked if I wanted to come in to do ToGo service,  ummmm  Nope, all those sicky people can just stay away from me.  Money wise it isn't worth it to me, I'll stay here TYVM


I can't blame you for feeling that way for either subjects. I do wonder what the other countries are doing that their mortality numbers are lower than ours in comparison to how many have recovered.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I know it’s not for everyone, but reading about the research efforts to combat the virus makes me feel a lot better than looking at case and mortality counters. Some of the world’s best science journalists are writing about the newest developments and areas where the research community is converging on consensus.  If you want to learn more, Statnews.com and the articles I linked below are a good starting place. Although there are knowledge gaps and other major obstacles to overcome, there is also a steady stream of reasons to be hopeful.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/25/coronavirus-experts-craft-strategies-to-relax-lockdowns/
https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/25...-progress-in-antibody-treatment-for-covid-19/


----------



## penelopejane

If you are interested in how the US have reacted to the virus compared to South Korea and further info:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/28/trump-coronavirus-politics-us-health-disaster


----------



## lsg

Sorry to hear that you are unwell, Shari.


----------



## dibbles

@shunt2011 I am sorry - I hope you feel better very soon.


----------



## Quilter99755

@shunt2011 I hope that you recover easily and quickly.  Take care.


----------



## Arimara

@shunt2011 Sorry. I hope you recover.


----------



## Funmi

The effects of this disease on the world is quite devastating. I pray that you and your families stay safe.

Just a quick question to my fellow soapers with soap making businesses,how is the coronavirus affecting it?

Shouldnt Soap sales  be increasing due to frequent handwashing? Could this be an opportunity in disguise.

What challenges are you facing?


----------



## Elena 64

@shunt2011 , hope you recover quickly.


----------



## MGM

penelopejane said:


> Best advice I think is to use soap regularly and when you can but if not, use sanitiser. At hospitals it’s much quicker to use sanitiser at the end of beds but doctors regularly wash their hands between patients as well.



I've always felt like hand-washing is an at-home thing and sanitizer is an out and about thing.  This is borne out by my recent experience: we went to Cancun March 11-18 (in case you forget, since we've all lived lifetimes since then,  March 11 was "be careful, but definitely still travel'; by March 13, school was cancelled, the university had shut down...what a difference 2 days makes!). On the way there, we sprayed down the airplane, and carried hand sanitizer with us at all times in the resort. We used it multiple times during meals (every time we went to up to the buffet, for example) as well as while we were out and about. But, we also washed our hands a lot in our room. On the flight home, we again sprayed down the entire airplane, and were using it obsessively in the airport.
Since we got back, I haven't used hand sanitizer once. I'm not even sure where it is, although I must find it to carry with me once my 14-day isolation is over and I rejoin the world....although I'm not sure where I will go...

We use regular cleaning spray to wipe down door knobs, counters, light switches, etc. and lots of beautiful and fragrant soap on our hands, multiple times a day....


----------



## Obsidian

We have our first case in my county. I don't know if its in my town or the bigger one next door.
Looks like a case of community transmission, I'm sure we would have many other cases if we actually had tests. In the last week or two, our health district tested around 100 people. Its just not enough.

On top of that, I've been feeling poorly the last couple days. Makes me wonder if the cough and sore throat I had a week ago was the beginning and not really allergies like I though.
My lungs are fine and I'm not running a fever yet but my eyeballs hurt, I have a headache and general malaise.

If I do get sick, the biggest issue I'll have is not spreading to DH. I make sure to disinfect surfaces and stay away from him. I also have my own bedroom so that helps.


----------



## Elena 64

@Obsidian , hoping it will be good soon; virtual hugs!!!


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Obsidian said:


> We have our first case in my county. I don't know if its in my town or the bigger one next door.
> Looks like a case of community transmission, I'm sure we would have many other cases if we actually had tests. In the last week or two, our health district tested around 100 people. Its just not enough.
> 
> On top of that, I've been feeling poorly the last couple days. Makes me wonder if the cough and sore throat I had a week ago was the beginning and not really allergies like I though.
> My lungs are fine and I'm not running a fever yet but my eyeballs hurt, I have a headache and general malaise.
> 
> If I do get sick, the biggest issue I'll have is not spreading to DH. I make sure to disinfect surfaces and stay away from him. I also have my own bedroom so that helps.


Take care Obsidian.  I hope you start feeling better really soon.


----------



## dianaabuela1

dixiedragon said:


> Interestingly, measles is much more contagious than corona virus. It can survive up to 2 hrs in the air. Vs corona which requires close contact, such as an infected person sneezing or coughing on you.
> 
> https://khn.org/news/response-to-na...-case-draws-on-lessons-from-measles-outbreak/


And on surfaces for days!!


----------



## dibbles

I hope you feel better soon, and it's not the virus @Obsidian. Take care.


----------



## penelopejane

Funmi said:


> The effects of this disease on the world is quite devastating. I pray that you and your families stay safe.
> 
> Just a quick question to my fellow soapers with soap making businesses,how is the coronavirus affecting it?
> 
> Shouldnt Soap sales  be increasing due to frequent handwashing? Could this be an opportunity in disguise.
> 
> What challenges are you facing?


I live in a tiny tourist village in Australia. In December and January we had fires and no tourists so no soap sales. Since the Corona virus we’ve had very few tourists and no one is spending except on essential (cheap)groceries. Australia is in shutdown and as of yesterday lockdown -except to go to the supermarket, pharmacy, doctor or essential travel and you can’t congregate in groups of more than 2 in public places.
A lot of people are out of work and others are being careful to save every cent as no one knows what the future holds economically or healthwise. Expensive handmade soap is a luxury item that few are considering now.

I hope you feel better soon Shari and Obsidian.


----------



## bookreader451

Take care Obsidian!  My SIL had a fever yesterday and she lives with my almost 90 yo MIL.  She says the fever is gone today so hopefully it was nothing.  They are in Ft. Lauderdale area.


----------



## KiwiMoose

penelopejane said:


> I live in a tiny tourist village in Australia. In December and January we had fires and no tourists so no soap sales. Since the Corona virus we’ve had very few tourists and no one is spending except on essential (cheap)groceries. Australia is in shutdown and as of yesterday lockdown -except to go to the supermarket, pharmacy, doctor or essential travel and you can’t congregate in groups of more than 2 in public places.
> A lot of people are out of work and others are being careful to save every cent as no one knows what the future holds economically or healthwise. Expensive handmade soap is a luxury item that few are considering now.
> 
> I hope you feel better soon Shari and Obsidian.


Yes - you've had a double whammy in Aussie PJ!  
We are in a similar situation since out country-wide lockdown that started last Thursday.  Internet sales are restricted to only essential items - so facebook marketplace, trade me ( our version of e-bay) and most website sales are out of action too.  We are not allowed to get within 2 metres of anyone not in our 'bubble' (anyone in our household).  We just had our first death in NZ related to C-19 yesterday.  I'm pleased that our PM imposed the lockdown before it got out of hand.  Hopefully we won't have too many more.  They did state it is likely that confirmed cases will increase in the first two weeks of lockdown though, before we start to see it turning around.


----------



## shunt2011

@dixiedragon  Take care of yourself and hope you feel better soon.


----------



## StormyK

I thought this was an extreamly interesting. 



It doesnt look like much, but is from Dr. David Price: a critical care pulmonologist in NYC at Weill Cornell Hospital which apparently is almost solely Covid patients now. Has some really interesting info on how the virus spreads - a bit different than has been believed thus far.


----------



## DeeAnna

I'd love to watch this video, but it's almost an hour long. I need to look for a written transcript instead.

edit: Ah, google is my friend. 

Here's a summary that I hope provides accurate highlights of Dr. Price's video lecture. https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpres...vid-19-from-a-pulmonary-critical-care-doctor/

Medium.com ran a similar article a day or so ago that is a good companion to the information by Dr. Price. Author A.M. Carter provides much the same advice from the perspective of someone who has a serious immune system disorder. https://medium.com/@amcarter/i-had-...-after-my-bone-marrow-transplant-1b097f16040c


----------



## Funmi

penelopejane said:


> I live in a tiny tourist village in Australia. In December and January we had fires and no tourists so no soap sales. Since the Corona virus we’ve had very few tourists and no one is spending except on essential (cheap)groceries. Australia is in shutdown and as of yesterday lockdown -except to go to the supermarket, pharmacy, doctor or essential travel and you can’t congregate in groups of more than 2 in public places.
> A lot of people are out of work and others are being careful to save every cent as no one knows what the future holds economically or healthwise. Expensive handmade soap is a luxury item that few are considering now.
> 
> I hope you feel better soon Shari and Obsidian.


sorry to hear about that. I stay in Lagos, Nigeria and a lockdown has been ordered. No movement, nothing. Hopefully this will pass soon.

After this pandemic we have to recover.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

For those in the US, you can now find state by state projections of the timelines for infections that will require hospital beds and other hospital resources at this site: https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections

The projections are based on a model developed at University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IMHE), which is supported by a major grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

This is an early model and there are still many unknowns, which may affect the actual patterns observed compared with the projections.  This uncertainty is represented as shading around the projections.  With NY peaking relatively early and dominating the national projection, the US need for hospital beds is projected to peak about 2 weeks from now. In some states, my own included, the predicted demand won’t peak until about a month later, in May.


----------



## atiz

Mobjack Bay said:


> For those in the US, you can now find state by state projections of the timelines for infections that will require hospital beds and other hospital resources at this site: https://covid19.healthdata.org/projections
> 
> The projections are based on a model developed at University of Washington’s Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IMHE), which is supported by a major grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.
> 
> This is an early model and there are still many unknowns, which may affect the actual patterns observed compared with the projections.  This uncertainty is represented as shading around the projections.  With NY peaking relatively early and dominating the national projection, the US need for hospital beds is projected to peak about 2 weeks from now. In some states, my own included, the predicted demand won’t peak until about a month later, in May.


This is really interesting, thanks!
I guess "flattening the curve" also means that it lasts longer. I just wish things were at least a little better by June because I'll have to move mid-June cross-country again....


----------



## DeeAnna

If you want to see a neat 2-minute video that explains how soap destroys the covid-19 virus, you gotta check this out --



And if you're worried about how to shop for groceries or accept UPS deliveries or handle carryout/delivered food -- here's a helpful article from the Washington Post -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...pping-getting-delivery-or-accepting-packages/

Although the whole article is a worthwhile read, here's the essential advice the author offers -- 

When receiving a package that you think might be contaminated with the virus, "...t_he virus on the package is a necessary component, but it alone is not sufficient to get you sick. Many other pieces of the pie would have to be in place.

"So this is what you can do to disassemble the pie — to cut the chain.

"You can leave that cardboard package at your door for a few hours — or bring it inside and leave it right inside your door, then wash your hands again. 

"If you’re still concerned there was any virus on the package, you could wipe down the exterior with a disinfectant, or open it outdoors and put the packaging in the recycling can. (Then wash your hands again.)

"What about going to the grocery store? The same approach applies.

"Shop when you need to (keeping six feet from other customers) and load items into your cart or basket. Keep your hands away from your face while shopping, and wash them as soon as you’re home. Put away your groceries, and then wash your hands again. 

"If you wait even a few hours before using anything you just purchased, most of the virus that was on any package will be significantly reduced. If you need to use something immediately, and want to take extra precautions, wipe the package down with a disinfectant. Last, wash all fruits and vegetables as you normally would_...."


----------



## dibbles




----------



## lovdatsoap

..”I've been feeling poorly .....”
******



hope you fully recover quickly
Prayers for you and yours rising up


----------



## BattleGnome

View media item 2632


----------



## KiwiMoose

We've not even been on lockdown for a week and I'm soooooooo bored and unmotivated.  How I'm going to manage for the next 3 and a half weeks I don't know. There's talk of extending it a further week or two as well!


----------



## Lin19687

Mobjack Bay said:


> With NY peaking relatively early and dominating the national projection,



I do not believe that NY has peaked.  
We also need to make sure that our adult & teenage children know about staying away from others.
Found this on CNN a few minutes ago.
"In Australia and New Zealand, there's a high proportion of young people among those diagnosed with coronavirus.
According to Australian government statistics:
    21% of confirmed cases are aged 20 to 29
    16% of cases are aged 30 to 39
    31% of cases are 60 or older
In New Zealand:
    26% of confirmed cases are aged 20 to 29
    14% of cases are aged 30 to 39
    21% of cases are 60 or older
For comparison, a report issued by the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that ***analyzed the cases of 2,500 patients in the US whose ages were known***, found that:
    29% were aged 20 to 44
    18% were aged 55 to 64
    25% were aged 65 to 84"
PLEASE note the *** section of the US.  That is Only 2,500 patients, we have how many?   160,700+   I do not know when that analysis was done but it looks like there are more younger getting it and those are the ones that are still not heading the call to stay away from others.  I really do wish that all the states, that think they only have a few cases and don't count, would issue the stay at home.  They obviously are not thinking of all the people that travel to other places to work and come back.  Their Health care systems will be over run because they are small if it hits there.


----------



## Susie

atiz said:


> This is really interesting, thanks!
> I guess "flattening the curve" also means that it lasts longer. I just wish things were at least a little better by June because I'll have to move mid-June cross-country again....



I understand your frustration.  Real life is real life, and sometimes you have to move in the middle of a pandemic. 

However, "flattening the curve" does NOT make this last longer.  It means that less people (maybe your loved ones, maybe mine) die because the amount of sick people stay below the maximum number of hospital beds and other resources available.  It means that doctors don't have to let people die because there isn't another ventilator available.  It means that less people over all get sick.  

Had the US and its states started more stringent lockdown measures earlier, we would probably be already going back to life as normal.  And, if people would stop having weddings, parties, in-person church services, spring break vacations on beaches, etc, we would not now be facing another potential month or more of this. However, people are not smart or wise as a whole.  And they want to go back to life as normal as it was right now.  Well, sweetie, that isn't going to help anyone, least of all, you.  If/when you have to move, deal with the move then.  Right now, stay at home. 

Sorry if this comes off as strong, y'all.  I deleted half of what I wrote already.  But strong warnings are not enough to convince some people that this virus KILLS PEOPLE. Some young and healthy, some old and ill.  But every one of us is at risk.  It does not pick and choose.


----------



## Megan

Flattening the curve actually does make the pandemic last a little longer, because (unfortunately) roughly the same amount of people will get infected. The idea is to spread out that rate of infection so that hospitals can adequately care for those who need it when it arises. 

I do agree that the lock down should have been more stringent. It's hard to say if tightening the faucet, or turning it off altogether would have been better though. What really hurt us, IMO, was all of the contradictory messaging we were hearing about the virus when it first came here to the US. The first thing the president told the country was that it was no big deal and that it would just disappear. That we had nothing to worry about. That is what people heard first and many still believe it. Young people feel invincible because they were told it couldn't hurt them (And lets face it, most young people are selfish, impulsive, and bacchanalian).


----------



## Gaisy59

StormyK said:


> I thought this was an extreamly interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesnt look like much, but is from Dr. David Price: a critical care pulmonologist in NYC at Weill Cornell Hospital which apparently is almost solely Covid patients now. Has some really interesting info on how the virus spreads - a bit different than has been believed thus far.




This is what people need to hear instead of what we are getting in the news everyday which is promoting panic. A common sense approach instead of fear mongering. Thank you for posting this!


----------



## atiz

Susie said:


> I understand your frustration.  Real life is real life, and sometimes you have to move in the middle of a pandemic.
> 
> However, "flattening the curve" does NOT make this last longer.  It means that less people (maybe your loved ones, maybe mine) die because the amount of sick people stay below the maximum number of hospital beds and other resources available.  It means that doctors don't have to let people die because there isn't another ventilator available.  It means that less people over all get sick.
> 
> Had the US and its states started more stringent lockdown measures earlier, we would probably be already going back to life as normal.  And, if people would stop having weddings, parties, in-person church services, spring break vacations on beaches, etc, we would not now be facing another potential month or more of this. However, people are not smart or wise as a whole.  And they want to go back to life as normal as it was right now.  Well, sweetie, that isn't going to help anyone, least of all, you.  If/when you have to move, deal with the move then.  Right now, stay at home.
> 
> Sorry if this comes off as strong, y'all.  I deleted half of what I wrote already.  But strong warnings are not enough to convince some people that this virus KILLS PEOPLE. Some young and healthy, some old and ill.  But every one of us is at risk.  It does not pick and choose.


Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that flattening the curve is not the right thing to do. Absolutely, without any question at all.

But I do think it makes things last longer. At least based on what I've read, the expected number of people who end up getting infected is mostly the same whether we flatten the curve or not. The question is how this number gets distributed over time: whether everyone gets sick almost at once and break the health care system (I have a lot of friends in NYC and it's heartbreaking to read the news about the hospitals there), or they/we get sick sort of consecutively, on a "flat curve" -- a longer curve for sure, but flatter. In all, yes, less people die but not less people get sick.
Again, I'm not a medical expert so I may be misunderstanding the situation, there are so many different pieces of information going around.

ETA: sorry, didn't see @Megan's response earlier. She said it better.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@Lin19687 The model I linked predicts that the maximum need for hospital beds in NY will be on April 9th, compared with late May or early June in Virginia.  NY is dwarfing the effects of other states on the model output because NY alone accounts for so many of the current and predicted cases requiring hospitalization in the US.

Flattening the curve does not determine how many people will ultimately become infected by COVID-19.  It’s most important as a public health tool for helping to keep the number of new cases at a level that does not exceed hospital resources.


----------



## MGM

DeeAnna said:


> _"If you wait even a few hours before using anything you just purchased, most of the virus that was on any package will be significantly reduced. If you need to use something immediately, and want to take extra precautions, wipe the package down with a disinfectant. Last, wash all fruits and vegetables as you normally would_...."



My first Christmas-like experience was when my first Walmart grocery order arrived Sunday morning. Everything that needed to go in the fridge was washed and everything else is in a 3-day time-out in the storage room. Second Christmas-like experience will be tomorrow morning when I can go get the rest of my groceries...mainly snack food IIRC.....


----------



## DeeAnna

"..._Flattening the curve does not determine how many people will ultimately become infected by COVID-19. It’s most important as a public health tool for helping to keep the number of new cases at a level that does not exceed hospital resources_...."

I agree. Given the inconsistencies in the restrictions on people's interactions and the large number of people who ignore the restrictions, the US is likely to have as many people get sick as if there were no restrictions at all.  But given many of us are complying with restrictions, I hope the peak will not be as catastrophic. 

Some countries have imposed rigid restrictions, serious enforcement of the restrictions, and widespread testing to contain "hot spots". If a country can manage to do this, you can create a situation where the curve is both flattened AND shortened. In other words, fewer people are sick at any one time and fewer people in total get sick. Problem is, the US isn't one of those countries. 

What I don't think a lot of people realize is this outbreak is only the first in what will be a series of outbreaks. This one will be the worst, because we don't have _any _herd immunity in the human population right now and no vaccine (yet) to help build herd immunity. The virus is here to stay and will crop up again and again, just like other corona viruses we're more familiar with.

I hope no one is in a hurry to forget the lessons we're learning now.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Strict controls during the early stages of the COVID-19 event could have contained the disease, but what they’re doing now is slowing the spread, reducing the number of sick people at any given time and, as a result, the number of people who can be kept alive in hospitals. The strategy is buying time for the research community to find alternatives or develop a vaccine. I’m not saying it’s a bad strategy, but there’s a flip side.  The disintegration of a country’s economy also has major implications for the health and wellbeing of the population.  That is the kindest explanation for why some leaders are starting to talk about lifting restrictions and allowing the disease to run its course.  It’s a risk assessment exercise.  If they lift restrictions and let the populations in their countries develop herd immunity, most people will be able to go back to work and some semblance of normality sooner rather than later.  The price will be the lives of those who could have been saved by waiting for a vaccine or a better public health management strategy for a highly infectious disease in a globally connected world. There will be no herd immunity until something like 60-70% of the population has been infected and survived. The benefit will go to those who make it through. Borders will have to stay closed until a vaccine is developed and administered to those who have not been infected.  Current estimates are 12-18 months for a vaccine if we keep our fingers crossed.  Intermittent control strategies (in space or time) seem like the most viable option out there right now, but only if rapid testing, rapid contact tracing and immediate quarantine can be effected.  That will mean major restrictions on the freedoms many enjoyed before the pandemic.  It’s difficult for me to imagine a strategy like that working in the US, especially when I consider the current state of our political system. At the same time, I remain hopeful that the tremendous focus on vaccine development right now will lead to a breakthrough.


----------



## dibbles

I just saw this posted on FaceBook - seems like a good thing to do. 

IMPORTANT COVID-19 INFO to share with the public:

Right now, write up a information sheet. Start with name, address, birthdate, phone number. Then include medical history, allergies and medication list.

Please do this for every member of your family and make sure it's handy and ready to be given to the Fire crews.

Make sure an "IN CASE OF EMERGENCY" phone number is on there.

We are not allowing ANYONE to accompany a patient to the hospital.

If you or a loved one has to go the hospital for ANY reason you don't want us, doctors or nurses missing key information.

Most of us have plenty of time on our hands right now. So, no excuses! Do it today please.


----------



## Relle

dibbles said:


> I just saw this posted on FaceBook - seems like a good thing to do.
> IMPORTANT COVID-19 INFO to share with the public:
> Right now, write up a information sheet. Start with name, address, birthdate, phone number. Then include medical history, allergies and medication list.
> Please do this for every member of your family and make sure it's handy and ready to be given to the Fire crews.


I presume that this is for the USA only ? Can't understand about giving it to a fire crew .


----------



## SeaSuds

Relle said:


> I presume that this is for the USA only ? Can't understand about giving it to a fire crew .



Not yet Relle, but my son is a fireman and they are being prepared to drive ambulances, be first responders and assist paramedics


----------



## Susie

dibbles said:


> I just saw this posted on FaceBook - seems like a good thing to do.
> 
> IMPORTANT COVID-19 INFO to share with the public:
> 
> Right now, write up a information sheet. Start with name, address, birthdate, phone number. Then include medical history, allergies and medication list.
> 
> Please do this for every member of your family and make sure it's handy and ready to be given to the Fire crews.
> 
> Make sure an "IN CASE OF EMERGENCY" phone number is on there.
> 
> We are not allowing ANYONE to accompany a patient to the hospital.
> 
> If you or a loved one has to go the hospital for ANY reason you don't want us, doctors or nurses missing key information.
> 
> Most of us have plenty of time on our hands right now. So, no excuses! Do it today please.



Thank you for this, Dibbles!!!

Speaking as someone who has been a nurse as well as an EMT, the standard place emergency crews are taught to look for that information is on the refrigerator.  I have ours there, as well as a printed out copy (two sided) behind my driver's license and health insurance card.  Those are the cards that will be removed from your wallet in case of an accident.  You also need a list of your doctors.  This will give them far more detailed information from the pertinent sources.


----------



## Lin19687

Relle said:


> I presume that this is for the USA only ? Can't understand about giving it to a fire crew .


Here the Fire Dept is the one who goes on Medical calls they have an ambulance along too.
Many Nursing homes or Assisted living condos say the best thing is to have all info on the FRIDGE, and that is where they look.  Things like DNR, names/numbers just don't have a ton of pics and crap on the fridge 

People need to look at HOW the spread started a bit differently.... By the time that China KNEW <-- key word here, there was a Virus there were people infected that left the area.  yeah Yeah, China blew it by keeping it secret for a while.

Just think about 2 people leaving the 'infected area' before it was known, going on a plane, both infected and touched the doors, railings, handles and seats as they walked in/by before boarding and after.  Then say out of 200 on that plane, 100 were in contact with that spot and then carried the infection with Them.  Now put them on at least 1-2 other planes to get to their destination and all the things they touched.  Don't forget the SOLES of the SHOES and how it is now carried all over, even if they keep their hands to themselves.  Think of how you take off your shoes and kids playing on the floor (yeah gross, and I cringe when I see that in public places gross).
Now draw a mental map of the spread.....  it was going to happen no matter what.  Remember they are saying that this stays on surfaces for DAYS and in the air for longer then the Flu.
Now if China was a bit more forthcoming and ALL the countries jumped on keeping people home, then we might be in a 'better' place.  But then again see above in my 1st two sentences.

When my Restaurant closed on March 17th they all thought we would be closed for 2 weeks.  I told them no, you won't , not sure if I said it here or on someones PM that I was talking about it.  It will be Months before Restaurants open and then when they do no one will be going for 2 reasons.  1) no one has the Extra money to waste on that luxury (even small $ is still a luxury) when you have bills that can't be paid.  2)  Most people know that employees of restaurants 'usually' work pay- pay and go to work even if they are sick..... ummm no thanks not on my food.  If you didn't know that, let me tell you they do, servers and food prep.  They don't have a choice and the bosses don't care so long as they can get the food out and customers are happy.

If you are out of work, Please look at your finances and PLAN to be super lean for a long while.  As much as I would love to help Small Biz, I can't because, well I have to put food on the table for the family and pay the bills. Just like everyone else.

Oh and just so you know, Cheesecake Factory always says they are 'For the Employee'--- they are NOT so just keep that in mind when you are deciding on where to spend your money in the future.  There are a LOT of employees that will no longer work for them because of this. They also own Grand Lux Cafe, RockSugar Southeast Asian Kitchen, North Italia & Flower Child.
Darden Restaurants are at least paying 1/2 of employees average paychecks to them for the next 3 week.  They own : Eddie V's Prime Seafood, The Capital Grille, Olive Garden, LongHorn Steakhouse, Bahama Breeze, Seasons 52, Yard House and Cheddar's Scratch Kitchen.
HOW well companies treat their employees in this pandemic is who I will be doing my Future shopping/business with, just my opinion

Wow, sorry that was super long, too much coffee I think lol


----------



## Susie

If I have to leave religion out of all my posts, politics needs to be out of posts also.


----------



## dibbles

Relle said:


> I presume that this is for the USA only ? Can't understand about giving it to a fire crew .


This was originally posted by a fire department. In some cases, a fire crew could be first responders as they are trained in emergency services and can get to a sight first. An ambulance would also be called. At any rate, I think it would be a good idea to have the information readily available for whoever the first responder is where someone lives, which was the intent of the post.


----------



## StormyK

Susie said:


> If I have to leave religion out of all my posts, politics needs to be out of posts also.



lmao!! Well, this comes across as rather petty.

Personally, I don't care if religion or politics is in a post if there's a *purpose *for it beyond just preaching or forcing personal beliefs/opinions down others' throats. Dont "yell" at me about what I should believe or what (you deem) to be correct and we'll get along just fine. As with everything in life, just be respectful of others and their beliefs, stances, and opinions. Do that and you can usually say what you wish without anyone jumping down your throat.

One caveat - text is tough to interpret and its extra easy to offend by accident...


----------



## Donna Ohanian

Atiz, the US has not flattened the curve. We are #1, for the worst curve. Meaning it gets much worse, before it gets better.  China & Italy ordered lockdowns and round 1 of the virus still took months. Maybe drugs will help. Testing is now back in 5 minutes thanks to a company from Maine. Look up Herd Immunity. Before this virus, it was 90-95%. Funny how they are saying 60% now.  That will take time, it will take the virus coming back, or a vaccine, or both.

Depending on what you do for work, reality is 80% of US small businesses and restaurants will be bankrupt by mid-June, so you might not be moving. They get loans, not a bailout and most can’t go months without income. Time to get some new skills online.  Food prices will sky rocket and I expect will be sparse since farmers will be affected too. People on here are crafty, hands on types. Grow gardens people! Regrow the veggies in your fridge with water! Stay home.  Sew your own mask for when you have to go out or make one out of vacuum cleaner bags  ( or coffee filters) and a bandana.


----------



## atiz

Donna Ohanian said:


> Atiz, the US has not flattened the curve. We are #1, for the worst curve. Meaning it gets much worse, before it gets better.  China & Italy ordered lockdowns and round 1 of the virus still took months. Maybe drugs will help. Testing is now back in 5 minutes thanks to a company from Maine. Look up Herd Immunity. Before this virus, it was 90-95%. Funny how they are saying 60% now.  That will take time, it will take the virus coming back, or a vaccine, or both.
> 
> Depending on what you do for work, reality is 80% of US small businesses and restaurants will be bankrupt by mid-June, so you might not be moving. They get loans, not a bailout and most can’t go months without income. Time to get some new skills online.  Food prices will sky rocket and I expect will be sparse since farmers will be affected too. People on here are crafty, hands on types. Grow gardens people! Regrow the veggies in your fridge with water! Stay home.  Sew your own mask for when you have to go out or make one out of vacuum cleaner bags  ( or coffee filters) and a bandana.


Well, the US as a whole might not be doing its best, but I think several places -- including our town -- is pretty considerate and has been quite proactive with lockdowns. People have been very disciplined around here with social distancing. So, hopefully the curve will, indeed, be flattened. (I don't want to offend anyone, but having grown up in Europe -- which I'm very aware is not doing great either -- I find the US healthcare system pretty scary in general. I hope I'm wrong.)

I am lucky to have a job in higher ed, which, even though we have had to deal with some difficult/unusual things lately, is at least relatively stable. I know a lot of people are struggling right now and I do try to help local small businesses as much as I can.


----------



## shunt2011

StormyK said:


> lmao!! Well, this comes across as rather petty.
> 
> Personally, I don't care if religion or politics is in a post if there's a *purpose *for it beyond just preaching or forcing personal beliefs/opinions down others' throats. Dont "yell" at me about what I should believe or what (you deem) to be correct and we'll get along just fine. As with everything in life, just be respectful of others and their beliefs, stances, and opinions. Do that and you can usually say what you wish without anyone jumping down your throat.
> 
> One caveat - text is tough to interpret and its extra easy to offend by accident...


`
No, it's not.  We don't allow religious or political postings.   This is a soapmaking forum and we want to keep it that way.  It will surely get out of control if not.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Susie said:


> If I have to leave religion out of all my posts, politics needs to be out of posts also.


Hallelujah!


----------



## bookreader451

Today I became one of those people who lost someone they know to corona.  He was a work associate and I just told him when NY's lockdown began he needs to be extra careful because he was in the hospital with lung problems last year.  He pooh poohed me and told me he is fine.  His wife contacted us today. 

Take this serious please.  I know some of my country is thinking it won't touch them, but please even in rural areas you just don't know.


----------



## Jersey Girl

bookreader451 said:


> Today I became one of those people who lost someone they know to corona.  He was a work associate and I just told him when NY's lockdown began he needs to be extra careful because he was in the hospital with lung problems last year.  He pooh poohed me and told me he is fine.  His wife contacted us today.
> 
> Take this serious please.  I know some of my country is thinking it won't touch them, but please even in rural areas you just don't know.



Im so sorry to hear this. This is all so scary.


----------



## Relle

bookreader451 said:


> Today I became one of those people who lost someone they know to corona.  He was a work associate and I just told him when NY's lockdown began he needs to be extra careful because he was in the hospital with lung problems last year.  He pooh poohed me and told me he is fine.  His wife contacted us today.
> 
> Take this serious please.  I know some of my country is thinking it won't touch them, but please even in rural areas you just don't know.


Sorry to hear of the loss of your work colleague.

My BIL has only 30% lung capacity and on oxygen. He doesn't leave the house.


----------



## atiz

I'm really sorry @bookreader451 ; it is just really scary.
I'm more and more worried about my parents who are pretty old and live in Europe. It's hard to be so far because if anything happens I'm not sure I'll be able to visit, and they have been pretty casual about this whole thing.


----------



## KiwiMoose

bookreader451 said:


> Today I became one of those people who lost someone they know to corona.  He was a work associate and I just told him when NY's lockdown began he needs to be extra careful because he was in the hospital with lung problems last year.  He pooh poohed me and told me he is fine.  His wife contacted us today.
> 
> Take this serious please.  I know some of my country is thinking it won't touch them, but please even in rural areas you just don't know.


That's awful, and very sad.  So many people think they are bullet-proof.  Our PM is telling us to 'act as if we have the virus' so that we are always conscious of passing it on to others.  A lot of people seem to be more ( or in some cases less) concerned about getting it, rather than realising the role they play in passing it on to others in their community.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

KiwiMoose said:


> That's awful, and very sad.  So many people think they are bullet-proof.  Our PM is telling us to 'act as if we have the virus' so that we are always conscious of passing it on to others.  A lot of people seem to be more ( or in some cases less) concerned about getting it, rather than realising the role they play in passing it on to others in their community.


I read last night that something like 20% of the infected may never know because they remain asymptomatic.  I think that was based on numbers from the cruise ships where everyone was tested.


----------



## TheGecko

My youngest daughter (30) works security for a distribution center...grave yard.  She came out of her room coughing around 8pm and said, “Mom, I’m sick.”  She called out to work and went back to bed.  Got up early the next morning and went to three different Urgent Cares before one would see her.  They did very little...temp (fever), BP (reasonable)...doctor listened to her lungs and ordered an X-Ray (negative for pneumonia).  Said she had a ‘respiratory infection’, wrote a few scripts and sent her on her way.  I get it, not enough tests to go around and no ‘cure’, but there was zero discussion.  And I’m finding a lot of people with the same ‘respiratory infection’ and being treated with the same meds, and no discussion.  About anything...when to return to work or when to return to the doctor, nothing about self-quarantine.  Nothing.

I put us in lock-down after I got back from the pharmacy (they were uncharacteristically quiet too).  And I may have to break quarantine.  Hubby got a new script...a special compound that isn’t make locally and they don’t ship, you have to pick it up...four hour drive round-trip...to the city...where there are thousands and thousands of idiots still running around.


----------



## KiwiMoose

TheGecko said:


> My youngest daughter (30) works security for a distribution center...grave yard.  She came out of her room coughing around 8pm and said, “Mom, I’m sick.”  She called out to work and went back to bed.  Got up early the next morning and went to three different Urgent Cares before one would see her.  They did very little...temp (fever), BP (reasonable)...doctor listened to her lungs and ordered an X-Ray (negative for pneumonia).  Said she had a ‘respiratory infection’, wrote a few scripts and sent her on her way.  I get it, not enough tests to go around and no ‘cure’, but there was zero discussion.  And I’m finding a lot of people with the same ‘respiratory infection’ and being treated with the same meds, and no discussion.  About anything...when to return to work or when to return to the doctor, nothing about self-quarantine.  Nothing.
> 
> I put us in lock-down after I got back from the pharmacy (they were uncharacteristically quiet too).  And I may have to break quarantine.  Hubby got a new script...a special compound that isn’t make locally and they don’t ship, you have to pick it up...four hour drive round-trip...to the city...where there are thousands and thousands of idiots still running around.


----------



## bookreader451

TheGecko said:


> My youngest daughter (30) works security for a distribution center...grave yard.  She came out of her room coughing around 8pm and said, “Mom, I’m sick.”  She called out to work and went back to bed.  Got up early the next morning and went to three different Urgent Cares before one would see her.  They did very little...temp (fever), BP (reasonable)...doctor listened to her lungs and ordered an X-Ray (negative for pneumonia).  Said she had a ‘respiratory infection’, wrote a few scripts and sent her on her way.  I get it, not enough tests to go around and no ‘cure’, but there was zero discussion.  And I’m finding a lot of people with the same ‘respiratory infection’ and being treated with the same meds, and no discussion.  About anything...when to return to work or when to return to the doctor, nothing about self-quarantine.  Nothing.
> 
> I put us in lock-down after I got back from the pharmacy (they were uncharacteristically quiet too).  And I may have to break quarantine.  Hubby got a new script...a special compound that isn’t make locally and they don’t ship, you have to pick it up...four hour drive round-trip...to the city...where there are thousands and thousands of idiots still running around.


I believe this is so underreported because they are just not testing everyone.


----------



## shunt2011

It's going to remain unknown how many truly are victims of COVID-19 as many have mild or no symptoms.  They  aren't even testing medical personnel at the hospital unless admitted.  We've got quite a few residents that are out on quarantine.  They are to stay home until they go 3 days without a fever.   They've just naturally assumed everyone has been exposed.  There's just not enough tests which is inexcusable.  I'm finally starting to feel better.  Still wearing a mask at work and then I go straight home.  Detroit is going to have the first 5 minute testing available starting today for First Responders.  Our police force has been hit really hard.  Greektown Casino has set aside two floors of rooms for First Responders that don't want to risk taking the virus home to their loved ones.


----------



## Gaisy59

Relle said:


> I presume that this is for the USA only ? Can't understand about giving it to a fire crew .



Sorry i am late to this info but up here in Manitoba we have E.R.I.K. Which is the same. All medical info is kept in fridge including any DNR info etc. I think it is a great idea to help out the paramedics as they try to treat an emergency.


----------



## dibbles

I'm sorry for your loss @bookreader451.


----------



## Becky1024

We live in Ohio and I feel blessed that we have Gov. Mike DeWine and Dr. Amy Acton leading us through this. They have been pretty strict with school closings, business shutdowns, stay-at-home orders etc, but I believe it will pay off in the long run.


----------



## cedarstar

Gaisy59 said:


> Sorry i am late to this info but up here in Manitoba we have E.R.I.K. Which is the same. All medical info is kept in fridge including any DNR info etc. I think it is a great idea to help out the paramedics as they try to treat an emergency.



I'm also in Manitoba and had to google what E.R.I.K stood for. It's that package attached to my fridge. I totally forgot about it. I think I will update the information. You never know when it might me needed.



bookreader451 said:


> Today I became one of those people who lost someone they know to corona.  He was a work associate and I just told him when NY's lockdown began he needs to be extra careful because he was in the hospital with lung problems last year.  He pooh poohed me and told me he is fine.  His wife contacted us today.
> 
> Take this serious please.  I know some of my country is thinking it won't touch them, but please even in rural areas you just don't know.



I'm so sorry for your loss. :'(


----------



## Lin19687

http://boston.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/a2f67ae8147948919ea2f99dd09d0955
Mass is a small state but we have a website that people can keep track of cases.  We were one of the few states that shut down schools then restaurants by March 17th.  When you look at the scale of cases, you can see when we started to get the testing kits in and it's shocking how many cases A DAY we are getting.  BTW the map is silly because they are not going to put in how many per Town.  And everything from the County list 'Unknown" down is where there is very small population and not a lot of testing going on in that area as there is near Boston.
I wondered if other states had this too.


----------



## Susie

TheGecko said:


> My youngest daughter (30) works security for a distribution center...grave yard.  She came out of her room coughing around 8pm and said, “Mom, I’m sick.”  She called out to work and went back to bed.  Got up early the next morning and went to three different Urgent Cares before one would see her.  They did very little...temp (fever), BP (reasonable)...doctor listened to her lungs and ordered an X-Ray (negative for pneumonia).  Said she had a ‘respiratory infection’, wrote a few scripts and sent her on her way.  I get it, not enough tests to go around and no ‘cure’, but there was zero discussion.  And I’m finding a lot of people with the same ‘respiratory infection’ and being treated with the same meds, and no discussion.  About anything...when to return to work or when to return to the doctor, nothing about self-quarantine.  Nothing.
> 
> I put us in lock-down after I got back from the pharmacy (they were uncharacteristically quiet too).  And I may have to break quarantine.  Hubby got a new script...a special compound that isn’t make locally and they don’t ship, you have to pick it up...four hour drive round-trip...to the city...where there are thousands and thousands of idiots still running around.



Call your local health department.  Someone there knows where to get her tested.  She MUST be tested.  ALL of you need to stay home because you are now all quarantined for 14 days.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Doctors of the Keck School of Medicine at the University of Southern California developed a simple self-triage tool to help individuals decide when to treat their symptoms safely at home and when to seek medical help. They are stressing that “one of the most important things each of us can do during the ongoing pandemic is to free up medical providers to concentrate on the seriously ill.”

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/20/self-triage-tool-covid-19/
https://covidassessment.org/

For the US, the Gates Foundation funded Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington is predicting the end of the first wave of the epidemic will be in early June.  http://www.healthdata.org/covid/faqs

“Our model says that social distancing will likely lead to the end of the first wave of the epidemic by early June. The question of whether there will be a second wave of the epidemic will depend on what we do to avoid reintroducing COVID-19 into the population. By end the of the first wave of the epidemic, an estimated 97% of the population of the United States will still be susceptible to the disease, so avoiding reintroduction of COVID-19 through mass screening, contact tracing, and quarantine will be essential to avoid a second wave.”


----------



## Arimara

bookreader451 said:


> Today I became one of those people who lost someone they know to corona.  He was a work associate and I just told him when NY's lockdown began he needs to be extra careful because he was in the hospital with lung problems last year.  He pooh poohed me and told me he is fine.  His wife contacted us today.
> 
> Take this serious please.  I know some of my country is thinking it won't touch them, but please even in rural areas you just don't know.



I didn't respond earlier but I'm sorry for your loss.


----------



## TheGecko

bookreader451 said:


> I believe this is so underreported because they are just not testing everyone.



A friend of mine’s daughter went through the same exact...’respiratory infection‘, here are some med, go home until you feel better.  Then Tuesday she went to the ER...double pneumonia...and they tested her for CV-19.  Then sent her back home...isolation for seven days, the time it takes to get the test back.

I figure that half the country has it.  But if you’re an ‘average’ person, you won’t get tested until until you are really, really sick.



Susie said:


> Call your local health department.  Someone there knows where to get her tested.  She MUST be tested.  ALL of you need to stay home because you are now all quarantined for 14 days.



We are...for the most part.  Daughter is only leaving her room for bathroom and fluids.  I dropped off rent, drop box, no one was around.  I’m still ‘essential’ and so boss and I discussed logistics of getting me stuff I need.  Roads are pretty quiet around 7pm so I’ll pull up to his driveway, pop my truck, he’ll deliver the package, I’ll head home.  Even though the stuff I need has been in an empty office, I’ll quarantine in my garage for 48 hours.


----------



## penelopejane

TheGecko said:


> A friend of mine’s daughter went through the same exact...’respiratory infection‘, here are some med, go home until you feel better.  Then Tuesday she went to the ER...double pneumonia...and they tested her for CV-19.  Then sent her back home...isolation for seven days, the time it takes to get the test back.
> 
> We are...for the most part.  Daughter is only leaving her room for bathroom and fluids.  I dropped off rent, drop box, no one was around.  I’m still ‘essential’ and so boss and I discussed logistics of getting me stuff I need.  Roads are pretty quiet around 7pm so I’ll pull up to his driveway, pop my truck, he’ll deliver the package, I’ll head home.  Even though the stuff I need has been in an empty office, I’ll quarantine in my garage for 48 hours.


Seven days to get test results back? May son just got tested because he was in contact with someone who tested positive and it took 2 days to get the results back. And our testing is free. 

We have a lot of testing sites - around the cities at least.
So very sorry to hear people losing relatives and friends and the troubles you are having getting PPE and testing.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@gecko a model that is being widely used by the medical community to predict hospital resource use is estimating that around 97% of the US population will have *not* have immunity when the first wave of the epidemic is over.  (See here, under “length of the epidemic”).  The model uses data on death rates to project infection rates, rather than relying infection rate data that is compromised by a lack of testing.


----------



## bookreader451

I fished out a bunch of quilting fabric and will be making masks today.  I was going to make my first attempt at the challenge but I want to see how many masks I can make instead.  

We are going to the senior shopping at 6am tomorrow so we are getting ready for that. My husband is going to wear his respirator.  Never in my life did I think making soap and working construction would be so useful during a pandemic.  

I mailed my daughter a box of gloves and she texted that she was keeping some and giving the rest to her friend's husband who is an ER doctor in NY.  The fact that my soaping gloves are going to good use makes me very happy.  I am also thankful I ordered a case of them before this began.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I’m also planning to take a shot at making masks today.  I probably have enough fabric in my stash to make thousands of them...


----------



## Lin19687

OMG I made a 5 min mask the other day just so we could go to the grocery.  It looks like a Duck Bill  bwahahahaha and it is golden color so that is even funnier.


----------



## bookreader451

This is what I came up with.  Can’t find my elastic so I used snap tape and rubber bands. Making six because my aunt needs a couple. Have to meet her on the NY MA border on Monday


----------



## penelopejane

DH bought a few like this in Vietnam to stop some of the smoke when fire fighting.  Beautifully made. 
You might be able to work out a pattern. they fit really snuggly over the face and don’t look like a ducks bill.


----------



## Lin19687

penelopejane said:


> DH bought a few like this in Vietnam to stop some of the smoke when fire fighting.  Beautifully made.
> You might be able to work out a pattern. they fit really snuggly over the face and don’t look like a ducks bill.
> View attachment 44945
> View attachment 44946
> 
> View attachment 44944


Bwahahaha That is what I was doing with my Duck Bill, it didnt' turn out very well but hey, it was god enough.
here it is on a roll of Paper towels.. it was all free hand in literally a few minutes on my machine as DD was yelling at me to get going. It covered my chin to my neck LOL


OK ok I don't EVER post pics of me but here it is on my face lol



man I am starting to get a chicken next hahahahhahaa


----------



## MarnieSoapien

@Lin19687 You have the beginnings of a great Halloween costume!


----------



## Mobjack Bay

This website has a pattern for a fitted mask similar to the one @penelopejane shows, and in different sizes if you scroll down: https://www.craftpassion.com/face-mask-sewing-pattern/

I made a rectangular mask today and it’s way too big for my face.  I’m going to try a fitted version tomorrow and then I will probably make more of the rectangular ones to give away.  I have a ton of fabric and at least a few yards of narrow elastic.  I don’t think I have snaps, but maybe some will turn up if I search long enough.  I do have loads of Velcro.  Now I know why I’m a fabric and notions hoarder


----------



## penelopejane

Mobjack Bay said:


> This website has a pattern for a fitted mask similar to the one @penelopejane shows, and in different sizes if you scroll down: https://www.craftpassion.com/face-mask-sewing-pattern/
> 
> I made a rectangular mask today and it’s way too big for my face.  I’m going to try a fitted version tomorrow and then I will probably make more of the rectangular ones to give away.  I have a ton of fabric and at least a few yards of narrow elastic.  I don’t think I have snaps, but maybe some will turn up if I search long enough.  I do have loads of Velcro.  Now I know why I’m a fabric and notions hoarder


Thanks mobjack that looks pretty close. They are really comfortable. 
@Lin19687 you are brave! Thankfully someone models mine in the link above so I am saved from having to do so.


----------



## bookreader451

I made six today.  I cut the pleated side 10 x 13.5 and the unpleated back 5 x 13.5.
The first one I made was 12 x 12 an it was too big in width and to short in length.  I was steaming up my glasses LOL. 
I used a 1/2 inch seam allowance and then flipped it inside out, made another pleat to make the sides smaller and added the snaps.  It fits over my ears and I can wash it easily.  If the rubber bands break I can add another with no problem.  Not the best needlework I have ever done but it will keep cooties away to grocery shop.


----------



## Lin19687

MarnieSoapien said:


> @Lin19687 You have the beginnings of a great Halloween costume!


Oh, I AM a Halloween costume daily ! (even with out the duck bill on ) hahahaa

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-maps-and-cases/
Link to see Stats on not only US but the World.  Looks like it is updated every day, has numbers and graphs (how often known cases have doubled) since the outbreak.
Wish it had Ages of people who have died so others can see it ISN'T an old/sick that is dying.
So if you know someone that thinks it is not going to come their way, show them this.  I am still amazed at hearing people say that.
If you don't have a mask, make one from tshirts if you have to, anything is better then nothing.   The best line of defense starts with you... as in everyone.

This afternoon my siblings and I are all going to be on a Video conference for my Nephews B-day (we are all over the US).  One is in NY.  Can't wait to find out if my siblings are intelligent or stupid by what they are doing and what they say about C19 - I already know 1 is an idiot but they are family by marriage lol


----------



## melinda48

A friend and I are making masks for our VA hospital. Turned in 30 yesterday. We both make them and when I have my batch done, I put them in a bag hanging on my front door; she picks them up and takes them to her contact from the VA. It is working well. Have stopped making soap for the short term as this is more important right now. Do have a 200 bar order for a November wedding so I still have time for that one and a fundraiser coming in early June so mid-week I will make more soap for that one - other than that, I am making masks.

Walmart has online grocery ordering which works spectacularly well so that is how we are getting our foodstuffs and other supplies. Our daughter is an essential employee and so she stops for little items for us if we need anything between Walmart orders.

Stay healthy - stay home!


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Here are my two prototype masks.  The top one started as two pieces of 9”x 7” fabric and the binding was cut on the grain from the outer fabric.  It is too big for my little squarish face, but fits a longer, more oval face just fine.  The bottom one is made from the pattern at the website I linked above. I made a casing to insert a piece of wire that conforms to the bridge of my nose and there’s a way to add a third liner layer if I decide to do that.  It fits well enough that I’m going to make a second one with only minor adjustments.  Then, if I can find a place that will take them, I will get busy making more of the first design.  I will change the design slightly to take advantage of the elastic I have in my stash.  I’m hoping I can get more because the ties I made are a bit bulky.  I have a stash of rubber bands so that’s another option to consider.


----------



## bookreader451

We went senior shopping  at 6am this morning.  Store was pretty empty and everyone had masks on.  I was anxious just being out.  I can't imagine how my kids are handling this in the city.  

I found a mill in Texas that still has bread flour you can order. They are refunding $10.00 on shipping on orders over 10#.  Bread flour is impossible to get here.  I used all purpose to make bread this week but it isn't the same.  It is called Barton Spring Mills if anyone wants to order.


----------



## Arimara

bookreader451 said:


> We went senior shopping  at 6am this morning.  Store was pretty empty and everyone had masks on.  I was anxious just being out.  I can't imagine how my kids are handling this in the city.
> 
> I found a mill in Texas that still has bread flour you can order. They are refunding $10.00 on shipping on orders over 10#.  Bread flour is impossible to get here.  I used all purpose to make bread this week but it isn't the same.  It is called Barton Spring Mills if anyone wants to order.


We have to wait on line to get into some supermarkets. Some of the stores are doing sales and some are not. Food and stuff is expensive, as usual. Side note, I saw an open Hagen Daaz. I wanted to go in so bad.


----------



## bookreader451

Arimara said:


> We have to wait on line to get into some supermarkets. Some of the stores are doing sales and some are not. Food and stuff is expensive, as usual. Side note, I saw an open Hagen Daaz. I wanted to go in so bad.


Yeah my daughter was so desperate she went to the Key Foods on Atlantic.   She couldn't get into Whole Foods the line was too long.


----------



## Arimara

bookreader451 said:


> Yeah my daughter was so desperate she went to the Key Foods on Atlantic.   She couldn't get into Whole Foods the line was too long.


Whole Food's has been off my broke radar. If she lives where I'm thinking that is (that KeyFood is by Sahadi's) She'd be better of waking up as earlier as possible (not too early as a lot of stores are give the elderly and disabled early access) and going to Trader Joe's. Taking the bus to Stop & Shop early is also a good idea (within reason).
That KeyFood isn't a bad store but it is one of the few larger grocery stores in that area so traveling farther for certain things might be a thing.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

We skyped with some friends of ours in Missoula yesterday. They told us a couple of stores are filling orders and delivering them into your car so people don't even have to go into the store. It seems like a good idea. Some of the shops here have limits on the amount of people that can be in the store at a time. I haven't seen it with grocery stores yet, but we live in a small town, so it might be happening in the larger cities already.


----------



## Misschief

All of our major chains here will do that, or you can arrange for pick up (they bring it to your vehicle). Unfortunately, they've been overwhelmed; I've even heard one person on the radio who said it would take nearly a month to receive their order as they're that backed up.


----------



## raymondlgraham

It's a good thing you do when you make soap.  Here is an article I borrowed from The New York Times.  We all need this information right about now.
Why Soap Works
Washing with soap and water is one of the key public health practices that can significantly slow the rate of a pandemic and limit the number of infections, preventing a disastrous overburdening of hospitals and clinics. But the technique works only if everyone washes their hands frequently and thoroughly: Work up a good lather, scrub your palms and the back of your hands, interlace your fingers, rub your fingertips against your palms, and twist a soapy fist around your thumbs.

Or as the Canadian health officer Bonnie Henry said recently, “Wash your hands like you’ve been chopping jalapeños and you need to change your contacts.” Even people who are relatively young and healthy should regularly wash their hands, especially during a pandemic, because they can spread the disease to those who are more vulnerable.

Soap is more than a personal protectant; when used properly, it becomes part of a communal safety net. At the molecular level, soap works by breaking things apart, but at the level of society, it helps hold everything together. Remember this the next time you have the impulse to bypass the sink: Other people’s lives are in your hands.


----------



## rdc1978

Misschief said:


> All of our major chains here will do that, or you can arrange for pick up (they bring it to your vehicle). Unfortunately, they've been overwhelmed; I've even heard one person on the radio who said it would take nearly a month to receive their order as they're that backed up.



I did this and not only did it take nearly a month to get a pick up time, the store had only $30 of my $200 order.  They also were over an hour late with the delivery.  I'm not mad because we're all doing our best, but that's been my experience with the drive up option at our grocery store.


----------



## shunt2011

Can't even get a date for delivery here.  My daughter managed to get one but only got half of what she ordered.   I've had better luck going to small independent markets for things.  Fortunately I don't need TP, Kleenex or Paper towels.   I always have a stash of those.


----------



## raymondlgraham

*If you really want to fight this Corona Virus then pass the following links along to everyone that has a position of authority and can check this out and get it implemented.  It could save 1000's of lives and you would have helped.   And NO, I am not connected with this product in anyway nor will I profit in anyway from its use or sale.  Like You, I just want to help stop this Pandemic as fast as we can.  And this could go a long way in helping to do that. 

https://bgr.com/2020/03/26/coronavi...spital-kills-coronavirus-on-surfaces-70-days/*

*https://www.nanovaporbiotech.com/*


----------



## dibbles

Day I don't even know. 2 bottles of wine and we're out of the house. Date night, I think.


----------



## CatahoulaBubble

Well my PPE has arrived so I am ready to face the jungle out there. It's GRRRREAT!


----------



## raymondlgraham

In these times, we all need a little encouragement and HOPE.... it's with that thought in mind that I offer this little song to you today.  I HOPE it lifts you up and make your day better.


----------



## Lin19687

HAPPY HUMP DAY !!!!


----------



## DeeAnna

raymondlgraham said:


> If you really want to fight this Corona Virus then pass the following links along to everyone that has a position of authority...*/*



Do your homework first before you issue challenges like this. If you really think this product is truly effective, then please provide _reputable _sources of information about it.

One source you gave is the company's website, which I suppose is acceptable assuming this is a legitimate product. But the other link is a scammy marketing website that is thinly disguised as a news source. A quick google search shows every one of the other websites that are carrying this article are also sketchy, scammy "news sources" as well.

I didn't find one reputable news source reporting about this supposed technology. And I find it telling that nowhere is the New Jersey hospital actually mentioned by name.

If you think something seems to be promising and useful, then do your research first, and share only if the info seems legitimate. Don't be a source of scammy clickbait like this. Don't be leading people on with unproven "miracle treatments" such as this "news article".


----------



## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> Do your homework first before you issue challenges like this. If you really think this product is truly effective, then please provide _reputable _sources of information about it.
> 
> One source you gave is the company's website, which I suppose is acceptable assuming this is a legitimate product. But the other link is a scammy marketing website that is thinly disguised as a news source. A quick google search shows every one of the other websites that are carrying this article are also sketchy, scammy "news sources" as well.
> 
> I didn't find one reputable news source reporting about this supposed technology. And I find it telling that nowhere is the New Jersey hospital actually mentioned by name.
> 
> If you think something seems to be promising and useful, then do your research first, and share only if the info seems legitimate. Don't be a source of scammy clickbait like this. Don't be leading people on with unproven "miracle treatments" such as this "news article".



Thank you, DeeAnna!  I was trying to think of a tactful way of saying exactly that.  You handled it beautifully.  This is NOT a reputable product.  Had it been, there would be published articles delineating the process of testing as well as all sites that participated in the trials.


----------



## bookreader451

dibbles said:


> Day I don't even know. 2 bottles of wine and we're out of the house. Date night, I think.View attachment 45006


This is our plan for this weekend if it stays nice.  I bought a projector and screen last year and we do fires and watch movies.


----------



## dibbles

bookreader451 said:


> This is our plan for this weekend if it stays nice.  I bought a projector and screen last year and we do fires and watch movies.


That sounds like so much fun!


----------



## Steve85569

CatahoulaBubble said:


> Well my PPE has arrived so I am ready to face the jungle out there. It's GRRRREAT!



I was looking for a good Halloween mask but couldn't find one.

I'm still trying to find some pantyhose the will go over my head so I can go out. 
It's a mask, right?

All joking aside, WASH YOUR HANDS. Don't sneeze, cough or just spray on anyone. Don't kiss anyone that you don't know ( good advice all the time).
This is a Corona virus. It spreads just like the flu because it is a type of the flu.
Practice safe and polite social living and we will have this disease beat in just a couple weeks.


----------



## Arimara

Steve85569 said:


> I was looking for a good Halloween mask but couldn't find one.
> 
> I'm still trying to find some pantyhose the will go over my head so I can go out.
> It's a mask, right?
> 
> All joking aside, WASH YOUR HANDS. Don't sneeze, cough or just spray on anyone. Don't kiss anyone that you don't know ( good advice all the time).
> This is a Corona virus. It spreads just like the flu because it is a type of the flu.
> Practice safe and polite social living and we will have this disease beat in just a couple weeks.


I thought it was a type of cold? Usually, the flu is caused by influenza, right?


----------



## Susie

@Steve85569 it may spread like the flu, but it is not a flu.  It is an entirely different virus.  It is far more dangerous because our most vulnerable groups of people routinely get flu vaccines.  There is, so far, no vaccine against this virus.  And, unlike the cold (rhinovirus) viruses, most of the population has no antibodies due to having been exposed before.  I am not trying to call you out on this, really I am not.  I appreciate your attempt to calm people here, but comparing this to the flu won't help them.  It may have someone believe that just because they got a flu vaccine last year, that they are safe.  They aren't.


----------



## Susie

Arimara said:


> I thought it was a type of cold? Usually, the flu is caused by influenza, right?



It isn't a cold virus, either.  It is different.  It is most related to the SARS virus that was in Asia in 2002. 

SARS stands for Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome.  And that is why this is a _*type *_of SARS virus.  It causes much the same group of symptoms (AKA syndrome).


----------



## Arimara

Susie said:


> It isn't a cold virus, either.  It is different.  It is most related to the SARS virus that was in Asia in 2002.
> 
> SARS stands for Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome.  And that is why this is a _*type *_of SARS virus.  It causes much the same group of symptoms (AKA syndrome).


Makes sense to me. Either way, I rather have the flu.


----------



## Susie




----------



## bookreader451

I don't know if anyone has access to a Restaurant Depot but I was there yesterday and they had toilet paper and nitrile gloves.   I carry gloves, a mask, and Clorox wipes everywhere.

Unfortunately, I am deemed essential so I still have to walk into a building that houses other people every day.   For some reason today everyone wanted to be chatty Kathy and I had to pull up my buff every 5 minutes.  Even 6 feet is not enough for me these days.  I wear the buff everyday and put it on if I see another person.


----------



## CatahoulaBubble

Steve85569 said:


> I was looking for a good Halloween mask but couldn't find one.
> 
> I'm still trying to find some pantyhose the will go over my head so I can go out.
> It's a mask, right?
> 
> All joking aside, WASH YOUR HANDS. Don't sneeze, cough or just spray on anyone. Don't kiss anyone that you don't know ( good advice all the time).
> This is a Corona virus. It spreads just like the flu because it is a type of the flu.
> Practice safe and polite social living and we will have this disease beat in just a couple weeks.



I got my mask on Amazon, I was looking for full face ski masks and the animal masks popped up. I felt I had to get one immediately.


----------



## dibbles

I'm in the middle of week 6 of self isolation. Two days ago it was 70° outside. Right now it's snowing. Yesterday there was a big bear poop in the yard. Hubby checked the neighborhood online board, and someone posted a picture of the bear - with 2 cubs. Last night one of our suet feeders was ripped down and destroyed. And onward we go. Our stay at home has been extended until May 4th. Even the dog is feeling it. Stay home and be well everyone.


----------



## bookreader451

We have to put a positive spin on being home. 

First our homes have probably never been cleaner. 
Second we have more time for soaping. 
Three we have rediscovered cooking/baking even on weeknights.  

This is scary but the introvert in me isn’t all that annoyed at being home


----------



## Susie

I am both missing my work and enjoying getting all this stuff done at home.  I definitely miss my income, but unemployment should arrive in my account tomorrow.  I am conquering my "get-around-to-it" list.


----------



## dibbles

I’m not making a lot of progress on the cleaning/sorting/organizing front. Which is making me feel a little guilty. I cook most days normally, so that isn’t a change. I was hoarding the bit of flour I had left until I finally was able to buy some last week. My friend/neighbor has been baking though and is almost daily bringing something over - none of which either of us need to be eating. I am home a lot normally, so it really isn’t that different for me. But we do usually see friends or family once or twice a week and I miss that. I’m not complaining. It’s just a bit of knowing I can’t go do things - and won’t be able to for awhile to come. I will have plenty of soap to give away for many months though. All my loved ones are well, and that is what matters most.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I’m not finding much time to make soap or keep my house clean, but I am very grateful that I can do my job at home and keep a paycheck coming in. My partner, who works for a nonprofit, is furloughed for an indefinite period of time.


----------



## atiz

I wouldn't say my home is very clean right now either.... :/ But I'm also grateful that I can work from home, even if it's not ideal. I have probably done the most of my work in various coffee shops, so the hardest for me at this point is not being able to do that at all. 
I also just found out that my future employer is counting me as an essential worker, so I'll have to move a bit earlier than planned and report to the office in person. Yeah, I always knew reading medieval manuscripts was super essential work .


----------



## Arimara

I'm the introvert that wants to go for a walk in the botanical garden and observe some blooming flowers.


----------



## Megan

My house has never been more messy with three year olds home 24/7 and working from home half days (at work for the other half)!


----------



## Susie

Mobjack Bay said:


> I’m not finding much time to make soap or keep my house clean, but I am very grateful that I can do my job at home and keep a paycheck coming in. My partner, who works for a nonprofit, is furloughed for an indefinite period of time.



I hope your partner filed for unemployment.  I filed the first day I was told not to come into work.  Everyone who is fuloughed should file.  The federal government kicked in some money to help increase the amount each person receives.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Denmark will begin a gradual return to school and work starting next week. My youngest will return to daycare next Tuesday and my oldest will start school again on the 20th. Hubby will be working from home until May 10. Social distancing is still in place, the borders are still closed until May 10, all events and concerts are cancelled until August. If there is an increase in cases, the schools will close again and we will go back to shelter in place.

I might be able to get some soap made later this month! It's been 40 days since I last made soap. Not that I'm counting...


----------



## Lin19687

No unemployment check for me  I don't qualify because I had just started the Restaurant job.. jerks
But on the bright side I have started Veggie Seeds indoor, got part of the garden ready for planting when it gets steady warm enough.
Got Bee Hive boxes almost all made and Bees coming later this month.
Every nice day I get to go out for a walk and drag the teenager DD out for some fresh air.
My desk is full of scrap paper with all sorts of ideas and things to do.... that I may never look at again  lol
I am getting a bit bored on rainy days and just can't get motivated to sew quilts right now for some reason.... Probably because I would need a few days and there are sunny days in there that I want to be outside 
Oh and I am a procrastinator so that is not helping


----------



## bookreader451

I find I am more productive at work because I am only there half time and still need to do all the work.  The blessing is things are much slower.


Lin19687 said:


> No unemployment check for me  I don't qualify because I had just started the Restaurant job.. jerks
> But on the bright side I have started Veggie Seeds indoor, got part of the garden ready for planting when it gets steady warm enough.
> Got Bee Hive boxes almost all made and Bees coming later this month.
> Every nice day I get to go out for a walk and drag the teenager DD out for some fresh air.
> My desk is full of scrap paper with all sorts of ideas and things to do.... that I may never look at again  lol
> I am getting a bit bored on rainy days and just can't get motivated to sew quilts right now for some reason.... Probably because I would need a few days and there are sunny days in there that I want to be outside
> Oh and I am a procrastinator so that is not helping



I would try to apply anyway.  Most times unemployment is based on work quarters so your job before that may qualify you.  I helped my aunt do her unemployment in MA and she was able to get it.  She was only at the place a short time too.  The owner hires her and gets rid of her regularly because she is a nut job. 

I also started my veggie seeds.  Need to move some things around as my soaping stuff took over my grow racks.


----------



## Susie

I don't know about MA, but TX says if you have been employed for 6 months anywhere in Texas, you are eligible.


----------



## Steve85569

Susie said:


> @Steve85569 it may spread like the flu, but it is not a flu.  It is an entirely different virus.  It is far more dangerous because our most vulnerable groups of people routinely get flu vaccines.  There is, so far, no vaccine against this virus.  And, unlike the cold (rhinovirus) viruses, most of the population has no antibodies due to having been exposed before.  I am not trying to call you out on this, really I am not.  I appreciate your attempt to calm people here, but comparing this to the flu won't help them.  It may have someone believe that just because they got a flu vaccine last year, that they are safe.  They aren't.



I didn't take it that way.
I am just tired of the FEAR being poured out on us.
That having been said - I am triple compromised as far as my health issues are right now. My breathing is bad enough that I cannot wear a surgical mask.

I have a powerful Friend that has told me that I shouldn't be afraid - he is always with me, he will never leave me nor will he turn on me.
If this is the one that gets me I've had a heck of a great ride!!


----------



## Susie

He is my Friend, also!  And I keep telling people that although He said don't be afraid, He also gave us brains to think with.  And He expects us to use them and follow simple guidelines like stay home if you don't HAVE to leave, wash your hands frequently, maintain social distancing.  I do very much appreciate you trying to get people to calm down.  I am quite tired of the media pounding fear down people's throats.


----------



## giltc

I think I may actually have begun to go mad here in my cell. The walls seem the circumference of my head. I converse with the ceaseless but faceless footsteps of my apparently-legion apartment  neighbors. I wear my best boots and hat to run to the Conoco, just in case any of the spectral locals heave up out from their disaster bunkers to judge my handkerchief face mask. The dogs are now fine with the mailman, but spooked by me. But hey...I got some argan oil somewhere...and there’s always, always another ******* Original Movie starring, like, a dispirited John Cusack.


----------



## Lin19687

Susie said:


> I don't know about MA, but TX says if you have been employed for 6 months anywhere in Texas, you are eligible.


In MA there is a Minimum $$ amount.

I do not see FEAR being spread, I see Medical Reason being spread.  Those talking about Martial Law and such are spreading Fear and those people should just be avoided.

Saturday Morning and it is going to be Nice out YAY !!!  Lawn lowing here I come


----------



## Susie

If you are worried about taking ibuprofen if you have Co-vid19, here's the facts:


----------



## Susie

Lin19687 said:


> In MA there is a Minimum $$ amount.
> 
> I do not see FEAR being spread, I see Medical Reason being spread.  Those talking about Martial Law and such are spreading Fear and those people should just be avoided.
> 
> Saturday Morning and it is going to be Nice out YAY !!!  Lawn lowing here I come



I get all kinds of news feeds, and I have to tell you that there is a vast amount of disinformation and fear mongering going on.  I am quite appreciative for those sites, though.  They have identified themselves as not trustworthy and allowed me to winnow down to sites that do their research before posting news.  It's going to save me a lot of time going forward.


----------



## KiwiMoose

So grateful for our Prime Minister taking such swift action with lockdown.  We have only about 14 people currently in hospital across the entire country - so no pressure with overflowing hospital wards.  We have sadly had four deaths now - all elderly and with compromised immunity/underlying conditions.  At two weeks into our lockdown the numbers tested positive with the virus have slowed, and now decreasing.  We now have more people recovering each day than we have people being tested positive. The PM said she will not reduce the lockdown period ( currently set at 4 weeks) because we run the risk of rushing out and re-spreading the virus. We have just gone two weeks into our lockdown.  It's tough - but I'm totally down with it. Because we locked down early, I think we have managed to change the pattern of C19 spread that has become so devastating in other countries.  It is likely that some major centres will have to stay in lockdown beyond 4 weeks, but it will be decided nearer the time.  Meanwhile - we were supposed to have moved house on 8th April, but this is not allowed, so we are waiting to hear when we can move.


----------



## Arimara

I'm now up to day with the mayor and the governor's power spat. I was wondering when that was going to happen.

In other news, I'm about to watch Royalty Soaps, Nail Career Education, and maybe Chocolate Cacao's new video. Of the three, Nail Career Education is the worst- I always wanna play with the acrylic or the polygel after watching those videos. #CoronaLife


----------



## msunnerstood

Arimara said:


> I'm now up to day with the mayor and the governor's power spat. I was wondering when that was going to happen.
> 
> In other news, I'm about to watch Royalty Soaps, Nail Career Education, and maybe Chocolate Cacao's new video. Of the three, Nail Career Education is the worst- I always wanna play with the acrylic or the polygel after watching those videos. #CoronaLife



Ive watched a few Nail Career Education videos, mostly when she's using Halo Taco. Funny thing is, I havent done my nails in years but I just like Cristine's (Simply Nailogical) attitude.


----------



## Lin19687

Coronavirus Update (Live): 124,049,013 Cases and 2,730,178 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info
				



In case anyone wants to watch numbers for all the world.

Going to go for a long walk in Private woods with DD.  Temps hitting 60 today.  Hope the bugs are not too bad or she will freak lol, darn teenagers


----------



## qtkitty

It is amazing what we knew back in February compared to now. Social distancing isn't much different than my normal. Although I swear I spend more time flipping around Netflix and what not for something to watch and get more excited than I care to admit when I get a notification that one of the channels I  follow has a new video uploaded lol.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Alas - we have four more deaths today.  There is a cluster in a retirement village and it's taking its toll.
On the bright side - only 17 new cases reported today, and 84 recovered today.


----------



## Hinata

I have been working exclusively with COVID+ patients for the last 4 weeks. Some of my patients look and feel alright (like not toxic or super ill) and knew they were sick for a week or so with headaches and bodyaches and only now come to the hospital because of shortness of breath. However, their xrays look horrendous. Sooo much inflammation in the lungs. And the oxygen in their blood dropped Which requires supplemental oxygen. However their blood work shows ALOT of inflammation in the body. And people like this can easy tip over the edge and turn very sick very quickly— because their body has already been fighting for a week and getting overwhelmed by the virus. I have seen people in their 30s getting intubated who where otherwise healthy individuals with no past medical history of diabetes, hypertension, renal disease, obesity etc. So my advice is if you know someone who has been having bodyaches/headaches and just developed shortness of breath then go straight to the hospital!! This is no joke. I had a young gentlemen with a heart attack due to the massive amount of inflammation in his body. Typically heart attacks is from coronary artery disease, meaning clogged with fat slowly overtime due to poor diet. But for the arteries In the heart to be clogged by a clot from the massive inflammatory response of a virus shows you the devastation this virus causes in the body. So please go to the hospital if you have already been fighting it and it hasn’t resolved after a week.


----------



## bookreader451

I got news last Saturday that my 80 yo uncle caught Corona when he was in the hospital with kidney stones.  He was on oxygen and doing okay.  He is supposed to come home today for a 14 day quarantine.   I am so thankful he didn't get worse.  We are dropping off a care package this week since no one can leave the house.


----------



## Jersey Girl

bookreader451 said:


> I got news last Saturday that my 80 yo uncle caught Corona when he was in the hospital with kidney stones.  He was on oxygen and doing okay.  He is supposed to come home today for a 14 day quarantine.   I am so thankful he didn't get worse.  We are dropping off a care package this week since no one can leave the house.



This is the really scary part.  People aren’t going to the hospital for help with other conditions because of fear of catching the virus there. The risk is real. I’ve heard that people are dying of heart attacks because they delayed going to the hospital.  My ex husband is fighting a very aggressive form of thyroid cancer and his doctors aren’t performing needed testing because they don’t want him going near a hospital.


----------



## Noreen Moore

Clarifications! Rhino and Corona viruses all cause common colds. However the reason this Corona virus is so virulent is the fact no humans have been subjected to this strain. No one on this earth has immunity. It recently jumped from an animal to another animal to humans. And I forgot how many strains now has been identified in this particular Corona.  And the scary part? Like influenza viruses, and the HIV viruses they all mutate! 
So yes this is in the "cold" virus family yet it is very much a SARS illness as well.  
I understand the financial loss, however being on the front lines? I am in NO hurry to re-open business as usual.  And I do feel compassion for those who are financially insecure.  
I have been taking between 1-3 cancelation shifts a pay period. 1. Because I am scared of this! 2. There are young nurses with small children and student loans who need the money more than myself. And if I can forfeit pay so another nurse can work to feed her family I will stay home. 
Then I see the TV ads calling healthcare workers heroes? I don't feel like a hero! I am so scared I feel like a zero!!!!


----------



## Misschief

Noreen Moore said:


> Then I see the TV ads calling healthcare workers heroes? I don't feel like a hero! I am so scared I feel like a zero!!!!



That line, right there.... THAT is what makes you a hero. You're doing what needs to be done even though it scares you. Thank you!


----------



## penelopejane

Noreen Moore said:


> Clarifications! Rhino and Corona viruses all cause common colds. However the reason this Corona virus is so virulent is the fact no humans have been subjected to this strain. No one on this earth has immunity. It recently jumped from an animal to another animal to humans. And I forgot how many strains now has been identified in this particular Corona.  And the scary part? Like influenza viruses, and the HIV viruses they all mutate!
> So yes this is in the "cold" virus family yet it is very much a SARS illness as well.
> I understand the financial loss, however being on the front lines? I am in NO hurry to re-open business as usual.  And I do feel compassion for those who are financially insecure.
> I have been taking between 1-3 cancelation shifts a pay period. 1. Because I am scared of this! 2. There are young nurses with small children and student loans who need the money more than myself. And if I can forfeit pay so another nurse can work to feed her family I will stay home.
> Then I see the TV ads calling healthcare workers heroes? I don't feel like a hero! I am so scared I feel like a zero!!!!



I think the front line nurses and doctors are amazing.  A huge thank you from me and my family and all of my friends.  Can't comprehend any negativity towards them at all. What would we do without you?




Melbourne, Australia, street art.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

penelopejane said:


> View attachment 45348
> 
> Melbourne, Australia, street art.


That is it exactly.  Where would we be without the nurses like @Noreen Moore, doctors and other healthcare workers?


----------



## melinda48

Arimara said:


> We have to wait on line to get into some supermarkets. Some of the stores are doing sales and some are not. Food and stuff is expensive, as usual. Side note, I saw an open Hagen Daaz. I wanted to go in so bad.


If I had a mask, I would have gone in and bought some ice cream for sure! We have been ordering groceries online and having them put in our car at Walmart. We have been very pleased with their selection of fresh produce (yes, they have organic too). I love that you can choose which items can be substituted and which cannot. Working wonderfully well for us!


----------



## Mobjack Bay

My sister finally found a container of Clorox wipes in her local grocery store.  It was $7.99!


----------



## bookreader451

Not sure how many of you are still on shelter in place orders but in NY we have two weeks, at least, to go. In the middle of all of this my husband has to have back surgery tomorrow morning.  I can't be at the hospital and he will be there overnight.  

To say I am scared would be a huge understatement.  He doesn't have a choice. He has a bulging disc that is affecting his ability to walk.  My uncle caught Corona in the hospital and I am terrified my husband will too.  I know they will be as safe as they can, but all it takes is one aide, phlebotomist, or nurse who is asymptomatic to spread it to him.


----------



## dibbles

@bookreader451 I'm sure you have concerns. It's also so hard that you can't be there with him. *hugs*


----------



## rdc1978

melinda48 said:


> If I had a mask, I would have gone in and bought some ice cream for sure! We have been ordering groceries online and having them put in our car at Walmart. We have been very pleased with their selection of fresh produce (yes, they have organic too). I love that you can choose which items can be substituted and which cannot. Working wonderfully well for us!



I am not a fan of Walmart but their grocery service has been a godsend.  

For years, nearly decades, Walmart invested heavily in inventory analytics and efficient supply chain and boy does it ever show, because that drive up service is nearly flawless.  

I've never had to schedule a pick up day/time that was more than five days out.  And out of two orders, that were each over $150, they substituted one item and were out of two.  

And in each instance it wasn't a big deal....like instead of french toast crunch I got an extra box of cinnamon toast crunch and they only had one box of triple berry Newton's and not two.  

They have had every other item in stock, the employees put everything in your car.  The check in process is easy peasy, and they are always on time.   And the employees refuse tips, I know because I have tried both times because I'm just so thankful for the service. 

Versus Safeway, which had $30 of the $120 worth of product I ordered and had me waiting like an hour and a half for it.  And I had to wait over a week to set up a time for pick up. 

Anyways, I cannot recommend the Wal Mart pick up grocery service enough.  

The first time I used it I even got an extra pineapple!


----------



## TheGecko

No offense to those in healthcare, but anyone providing an essential service outside of their home during this time should be elevated.  My husband and I have five children with three spouses/SOs.  Technically, they are all "essential" employees, but three can can work from home with one having to go to the office at least one day a week...the others are leaving their home six days a week.  Of those five, three are reasonably safe in that they each have their own work areas that exceed mandatory physical distancing guidelines.  The other two...not quite as safe.  DIL is a nurse, youngest daughter works security for a large distribution center.  And it was she who just returned to work yesterday after being out for five weeks when she came down with CV-19...she got it from a co-worker who came to work sick.


----------



## Arimara

melinda48 said:


> If I had a mask, I would have gone in and bought some ice cream for sure! We have been ordering groceries online and having them put in our car at Walmart. We have been very pleased with their selection of fresh produce (yes, they have organic too). I love that you can choose which items can be substituted and which cannot. Working wonderfully well for us!


I think the closest Walmart to me is on Long Island but the time it takes to drive there (if I had  my car and was able to drive), it would be better to drive to NJ being that even going over the Goethals Bridge, I deal with less traffic. That said, if Walmart is helpful for you, that's great to hear.


----------



## penelopejane

Queensland, a northern state in Australia, relaxed the lockdown rules and this is what happened the first day at one park.  
Give some people an inch and they will take a mile.   New restrictions now in place.


----------



## Arimara

penelopejane said:


> Queensland, a northern state in Australia, relaxed the lockdown rules and this is what happened the first day at one park.
> Give some people an inch and they will take a mile.   New restrictions now in place.
> View attachment 45767


That's to be expected when people are told they have to stay home for weeks with no contact with other people in many cases AND they believe the threat is over.


----------



## shunt2011

We are still under a stay at home order.  I've been working though.  I work for the ER.   I've tried to get an online order placed with our Walmart with no luck at all.  Fortunately, Kroger has been okay but it's usually a week out which isn't a problem for me.    Our governor is starting to loosen up the restrictions just a bit.  Allowing construction, realtors to open later this week.   Last week she finally made it possible to buy other items at the store other than essentials.  You couldn't buy paint, potting soil, seeds etc.   Toilet paper, paper towels, Kleenex and meat/chicken, flour are difficult to come by still.  Parks have been opened but are being watched carefully.   Also started allowing boats with motors and golf courses to open but no golf carts.

Our numbers are dropping and our hospital is doing much better but still seeing quite a lot of COVID patients.


----------



## atiz

Virginia is on stay-at-home order till June 10th, one of the latest. I'll have moved cross-country by then, and will not be able to see the Shenandoah park again, or go to my favorite places in town, at least this time...


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@atiz This state is an especially beautiful one (IMHO), but when it comes to amazing wide open spaces, that's true for much of the US.  If you ever want to come back to visit and don't have a place to stay, let me know.  The guest apartment is also the soap lab.  You will feel right at home


----------



## atiz

Mobjack Bay said:


> @atiz This state is an especially beautiful one (IMHO), but when it comes to amazing wide open spaces, that's true for much of the US.  If you ever want to come back to visit and don't have a place to stay, let me know.  The guest apartment is also the soap lab.  You will feel right at home


Thank you Mobjack Bay  It really is a beautiful state, so far my favorite (but have only lived in 3). I will much miss the mountains and the sunshine!


----------



## Nona'sFarm

penelopejane said:


> Queensland, a northern state in Australia, relaxed the lockdown rules and this is what happened the first day at one park.
> Give some people an inch and they will take a mile.   New restrictions now in place.


Wonder why it is so hard for people to understand the importance of social distancing and wearing masks? This virus is so contagious and as @Noreen Moore pointed out, no one has immunity. I guess it is a situation of many will not understand the danger until they or someone close to them get sick. That is sad and selfish, since one can be a silent carrier. Humans! We are our own worse enemies sometimes.


----------



## dibbles

Hubby and I buy our TP at Costco. We had just bought a pack not long before all of this started, and with it being just the two of us, it's been fine. We didn't need it, so I didn't buy more. Then the real craziness began, and I haven't seen it anywhere since. Finally, it is back in stock - not a lot and with limits on daily purchases - but it is there. I feel like a millionaire!


----------



## Jersey Girl

Nona'sFarm said:


> Wonder why it is so hard for people to understand the importance of social distancing and wearing masks? This virus is so contagious and as @Noreen Moore pointed out, no one has immunity. I guess it is a situation of many will not understand the danger until they or someone close to them get sick. That is sad and selfish, since one can be a silent carrier. Humans! We are our own worse enemies sometimes.



I don’t get it either. No one has to tell me to wear a mask.  I’ll be wearing one long after restrictions have been lifted but here in NJ it’s going to be awhile.



shunt2011 said:


> We are still under a stay at home order.  I've been working though.  I work for the ER.   I've tried to get an online order placed with our Walmart with no luck at all.  Fortunately, Kroger has been okay but it's usually a week out which isn't a problem for me.    Our governor is starting to loosen up the restrictions just a bit.  Allowing construction, realtors to open later this week.   Last week she finally made it possible to buy other items at the store other than essentials.  You couldn't buy paint, potting soil, seeds etc.   Toilet paper, paper towels, Kleenex and meat/chicken, flour are difficult to come by still.  Parks have been opened but are being watched carefully.   Also started allowing boats with motors and golf courses to open but no golf carts.
> 
> Our numbers are dropping and our hospital is doing much better but still seeing quite a lot of COVID patients.



In NJ golf courses have opened again too. You can take a cart, but it’s one per person.


----------



## Noreen Moore

Sad to say one of my co-workers hubby has been on a ventilator for 3 weeks now. Poor guy has severe underlying asthma and is a medical professional as well. 
PPE has ramped UP now in the hospitals. Neck is killing me. Face shields, masks, and the heavy Littman stethoscope and communication device all dangling off head and neck. Face shields mandatory in front of ANY patient. We all look like Star Wars Storm Troopers! Nobody is recognizable. Nobody.  Now with non Covid's I keep the shield on when I pull down face mask to give my patient a heart warming smile! I really believe it reduces fear. How scary to be so vulnerable in a strange environment with all these masked Storm Troopers around you!
One "new" thing is "re-use your gown" which I abhor and fear!!!  AND FINALLY yes FINALLY those who work the dedicated Covid floor are NOW provided with hospital scrubs!!! FINALLY!!!!! Thank you to my union. As nurses were being written up for using them. They were for doctors only!!!! 
N95 is another story.  We have now a lot of N95 masks. However all are different styles and everyone has to be re-fit. I failed on this years new mask. However with subsequent varieties I passed on a different style. Whew... 
Never in my life... Speechless... And I hope never again!!! The fear in the eyes of one of my most beloved infectious disease doctors spoke volumes.  
And what I find so sad is that my dear step son who passed from liver disease on March 30th, his cremains sit on a shelf in the cremation center.  No one can retrieve them yet.  
No funeral yet. When? Certainly isn't helping his fathers grief process by any means. Nor mine... Haven't gone this long without making a batch of soap... 
Today... Yup... Thinking a PVC pipe soap... 
Hugs to y'all out there! Hang in there!!!  Yes we are all a bit sick of the "we're in this together" mantra... But we are all in this together! And yes we will prevail!


----------



## dibbles

@Noreen Moore Hang in there. I saw that there is a better supply of PPE available for hospitals now. I'm so sorry for your personal loss. It must be hard.

Good luck with your soap. I hope making a batch helps.


----------



## bookreader451

I can't even describe my disgust at going to a grocery store for the first time in 2 months.  People without masks, no one following the one way cart rules, no one moving to let you by.  Hubby had been going to the 6am senior shopping but I am not 60 yet and with him out of commission from back surgery I had to be the one to go.  Not again!!  So many cars on the road again and people going into stores just to get out.  They are crazy.

We ordered half a cow from a local farm.  I just ordered more flour from the mill I found in Texas, my starter is off an running and I have plenty of toilet paper.  

I also got a pick-up slot at Walmart for aloe juice and socks.........I know but I needed socks and you have to buy $30.00


----------



## raymondlgraham

Noreen Moore said:


> Sad to say one of my co-workers hubby has been on a ventilator for 3 weeks now. Poor guy has severe underlying asthma and is a medical professional as well.
> PPE has ramped UP now in the hospitals. Neck is killing me. Face shields, masks, and the heavy Littman stethoscope and communication device all dangling off head and neck. Face shields mandatory in front of ANY patient. We all look like Star Wars Storm Troopers! Nobody is recognizable. Nobody.  Now with non Covid's I keep the shield on when I pull down face mask to give my patient a heart warming smile! I really believe it reduces fear. How scary to be so vulnerable in a strange environment with all these masked Storm Troopers around you!
> One "new" thing is "re-use your gown" which I abhor and fear!!!  AND FINALLY yes FINALLY those who work the dedicated Covid floor are NOW provided with hospital scrubs!!! FINALLY!!!!! Thank you to my union. As nurses were being written up for using them. They were for doctors only!!!!
> N95 is another story.  We have now a lot of N95 masks. However all are different styles and everyone has to be re-fit. I failed on this years new mask. However with subsequent varieties I passed on a different style. Whew...
> Never in my life... Speechless... And I hope never again!!! The fear in the eyes of one of my most beloved infectious disease doctors spoke volumes.
> And what I find so sad is that my dear step son who passed from liver disease on March 30th, his cremains sit on a shelf in the cremation center.  No one can retrieve them yet.
> No funeral yet. When? Certainly isn't helping his fathers grief process by any means. Nor mine... Haven't gone this long without making a batch of soap...
> Today... Yup... Thinking a PVC pipe soap...
> Hugs to y'all out there! Hang in there!!!  Yes we are all a bit sick of the "we're in this together" mantra... But we are all in this together! And yes we will prevail!


I believe that Red-Green of the PBS Red Green TV SHOW should be given the credit for the quote" We're all in this together"  I have heard him use it for several years now when he is dispensing his sage advice to us older guys.  I know that most everyone seems to believe we should all live in a panic.  But I choose to live in PEACE.  I understand this is a serious situation and we all need to take precautions.  But like combat, the danger comes with the territory.  We are just supposed to do all the things that help us to avoid becoming infected and leave the rest up to Jesus.  If he decides to take us out there isn't anything we can do to stop it but if he decides to leave us here then nothing will take us out.  Once a person realizes that and does all the safety things required then you can live in PEACE knowing that a higher Power makes the final decision.  That's how I make it day by day and I am in that age group and with an underlying condition, Asthma that by all others reasoning I should be worried.  But I am not and I refuse to worry.  It's not up to this virus to decide if I remain here or I go it is up to GOD and I know it.   God bless you for what your doing on the front lines.  You have my utmost respect and my deepest sympathy for your loss.  May God spread his Protection over you and your coworkers as you engage the enemy.  Thank you for your service.


----------



## Misschief

I've been keeping an eye on the numbers here in our local health authority. Interior Health (one of our local BC health authorities covering 216,000 square kilometres, almost 84,000 square miles) has had two new cases so far this week; there are 0 cases in ICU and have been none for the past week or more. We're taking this pandemic very seriously but when you see numbers like that, people are going to say "see, it wasn't all that bad" and they will be out and about in higher numbers. Thankfully, our local medical officials have done everything possible to keep the numbers low.


----------



## TheDebby

I know these times are difficult and very strange.

I'm so sad, this week I got news that my grandfather has corona.
Today I got the news that he is in a very bad condition. 
I don't know what is going to happen.


----------



## cmzaha

raymondlgraham said:


> I believe that Red-Green of the PBS Red Green TV SHOW should be given the credit for the quote" We're all in this together"  I have heard him use it for several years now when he is dispensing his sage advice to us older guys.  I know that most everyone seems to believe we should all live in a panic.  But I choose to live in PEACE.  I understand this is a serious situation and we all need to take precautions.  But like combat, the danger comes with the territory.  We are just supposed to do all the things that help us to avoid becoming infected and leave the rest up to Jesus.  If he decides to take us out there isn't anything we can do to stop it but if he decides to leave us here then nothing will take us out.  Once a person realizes that and does all the safety things required then you can live in PEACE knowing that a higher Power makes the final decision.  That's how I make it day by day and I am in that age group and with an underlying condition, Asthma that by all others reasoning I should be worried.  But I am not and I refuse to worry.  It's not up to this virus to decide if I remain here or I go it is up to GOD and I know it.   God bless you for what your doing on the front lines.  You have my utmost respect and my deepest sympathy for your loss.  May God spread his Protection over you and your coworkers as you engage the enemy.  Thank you for your service.


I also refuse to live frightened. If it is my time then guess what, I am not going to be able to stop it. Frankly, if I have to live the rest of my life wearing a mask I am not sure I want that either and will move to some little tiny town where they cannot find me. I am so done with this mess. 

Wonder if they will start counting the number of suicides and violence that happens due to the economic crash they have created instead of this running its course. It may prove to be. worse. The economy will be years getting back to normal and everyone getting back to work. This is going to be devastating for many young families. 

I may be old and cynical but death is a part of life and we all could have made our own decisions to stay in when this hit here. But no, we are treated like children and told by local authorities we cannot work, we cannot go to beaches because we do no mind. What does this sound like? .... We could have been given the guidelines of what to do and let us all decide how to live. I am sure I am stepping on toes but this is craziness control. I also, at my age, find it very frightening hospitals get paid if a patient passes away from this virus. I am by no means belittling you folks working out there in the medical field, I have family and friends working in the field. If I was still working and it was my profession I would work and do my job as expected, the same as every policeman and fireman, etc that puts their job on the line daily. We simply cannot control life as much as we may like to.

 Okay, my Rant is now over and if this gets taken down I understand.


----------



## DeeAnna

@raymondlgraham -- Really? You haven't heard _one _word about this matter? Then you haven't done ANY due diligence.

Since you can't be bothered to research your topic before you spout off your provocative ideas, I can only conclude your post is intended as a troll.


----------



## Lin19687

penelopejane said:


> Queensland, a northern state in Australia, relaxed the lockdown rules and this is what happened the first day at one park.
> Give some people an inch and they will take a mile.   New restrictions now in place.
> View attachment 45767


yup, that is going to happen all over and this darn C19 will start right back from the beginning if not worse


----------



## Lin19687

raymondlgraham said:


> In 2018-2019 the CDC reported that there were 34,200 deaths from the influenza.  This year, 2020, we haven't heard a word about deaths from influenza, only deaths from Covid 19 virus.  Hospitals are getting paid for every Covid 19 virus case they diagnose.  They get additional money for everyone they put on a Ventilator.  Could that have anything to do with why we aren't hearing about the influenza deaths this year?  Just asking.


Please stop watching Fox news and their Fear Mongering and Know your Facts.  I know what you are talking about but you are not listing the FACTS here. Please stop.

@Noreen Moore Please STOP taking off your mask so patients can see you.  You are endangering not only them, but your Coworkers, yourself and everyone that you come in contact with.  You know this, please get a Pic of yourself and pin it to your outter wear so they can see you that way.


I left the medical world last Jan and started again for C19.  Everyone Please be careful in what you are doing and how you are touching everything.  If you go to the grocery, only touch what you are going to take.  Don't squeeze the peaches (lol).  Wipe everything off before you bring it in your house and line the inside of your car with something before you put bags in there.  Just Think before you do something it really is simple to do, think about how things spread.


----------



## jcandleattic

raymondlgraham said:


> Hospitals are getting paid for every Covid 19 virus case they diagnose. They get additional money for everyone they put on a Ventilator.


This is absolutely 100% very untrue...


----------



## dibbles

raymondlgraham said:


> In 2018-2019 the CDC reported that there were 34,200 deaths from the influenza.  This year, 2020, we haven't heard a word about deaths from influenza, only deaths from Covid 19 virus.  Hospitals are getting paid for every Covid 19 virus case they diagnose.  They get additional money for everyone they put on a Ventilator.  Could that have anything to do with why we aren't hearing about the influenza deaths this year?  Just asking.


Do you really think that healthcare professionals would put someone on a ventilator that didn't need it? And just this week I saw a comparison of influenza deaths vs. Covid-19 deaths. Covid is winning, hands down.


----------



## raymondlgraham

dibbles said:


> Do you really think that healthcare professionals would put someone on a ventilator that didn't need it? And just this week I saw a comparison of influenza deaths vs. Covid-19 deaths. Covid is winning, hands down.


to answer your question:  Do you really think that healthcare professionals would put someone on a ventilator that didn't need it?  If they truly understood what they were dealing with, NO.  But this virus doesn't behave like it was expected to.  Doctors on the front lines are saying: ** 
Normally when you put a person on a Vent it's because the muscles that work the lungs have tired out, but this isn't the case with Covid 19.  A number of doctors in the ICU are saying that the pressure is too strong for some of these patients and may be doing more harm than good.  Some patients were placed on their stomachs and were able to get by and recover without being put on a vent.    Also about comparing Covid 19 deaths to influenza deaths.  Many of these deaths are counted as Covid 19 when they were never tested for Covid 19.  They could have had a number of different end stage lung problems such as COPD, or Pneumonia or Emphysema just to name a few. So, those statistics might be meaningless.   Just saying.


----------



## raymondlgraham

DeeAnna said:


> @raymondlgraham -- Really? You haven't heard _one _word about this matter? Then you haven't done ANY due diligence.
> 
> Since you can't be bothered to research your topic before you spout off your provocative ideas, I can only conclude your post is intended as a troll.


I don't want to start an argument here but to be sure I have done my due diligence perhaps much more than you have.  I have spent the last 25 years studying disease and how it destroys our bodies.  We have all been told that antibiotics shouldn't be given for a virus infection.  Do you know why this is true?   I do.


----------



## DeeAnna

You are making provocative statements, but aren't backing them up with verifiable science-based information. And now you're boasting to make yourself seem like an authority. As well as trying to deflect and divert the discussion by throwing in totally unrelated information.


----------



## MaryAlice

I don't feel that raymondlgrahm is trying to be provocative. There are very many differing views on this topic and the current narrative in the mainstream is coming from a very narrow view. It's important to let everyone talk about this openly, honestly and try to not get upset when someone presents a viewpoint that is different from one's own. There is so much fear around this. The best way to counter fear is to stay in our hearts because we are all in this together. All of humanity is facing this so we must stick together even when our opinions differ. Please stay calm and let us discuss this rationally.


----------



## IdahoSoapMaker

Why is this topic on this forum? How is this related to soap making? It is a highly charged issue that brings out a million different opinions.


----------



## beckster51

I am not going to address the issues about numbers of cases of Covid 19 vs. the flu.  That data can be  easily found and has been reported in the news frequently.  Right now, we are in such a crisis that the data is very fluid.  However, I am a little peeved about people making insinuations that the hospitals shouldn't be charging for treating patients that they are taking care of so diligently.  REALLY?  Do you expect them to do it for free?  Do you have any idea how much it costs to pay all those employees, professionals, and buy supplies and equipment?  Not to mention how expensive it is just to keep a building that size open and accessible?  And the idea that any health professional would knowingly diagnose someone with an illness to get paid is ridiculous.  You obviously don't know how hospitals get paid if you believe that is true.  Please stop making inferences that are completely false.  It confuses people who are already living in a knowledge vacuum that some seem to be gleefully filling with fear and misinformation.  It is true that health professionals are unsure about how to treat some patients, but that is not a new phenomena.  It happens every day with many diseases, and they make educated decisions based on individual data.  Taking care of people is not like changing the oil in a car.  And yes, Raymond, lots of us know why antibiotics are not given to treat viruses because we are health professionals.  I wouldn't go up against health professionals who actually know what they are talking about if I were you, and yes, it is provocative to make statements that you don't know are actually true and verifiable.


----------



## Lin19687

Does anyone have this kind of web site for THEIR STATE specifically like this one here in MASS ?
Would love to look at them and see how they all compare.





						ArcGIS Dashboards
					

ArcGIS Dashboards




					boston.maps.arcgis.com


----------



## DeeAnna

@Lin19687 -- Here is the main dashboard for the Johns Hopkins info -- ArcGIS Dashboards

I'm not sure if this will show you what you want to see, but maybe it will help.

On the left hand side of the screen, look for the tabs labeled Admin0, Admin1, and Admin2. The Admin0 tab will be active when you first view this map. Click on "US" in the Admin0 list to see just info in the US, for example. Next, click on the Admin1 tab and you'll see a list of states within the US. Click on a state name to narrow your view to the data for that state. Then click on Admin2 to see the county by county info within that state.

 Click and hold the left mouse button and then drag the mouse to change the part of the world you're looking at. Hover over the world map and rotate the wheel on your mouse to zoom in and out.


----------



## Arimara

IdahoSoapMaker said:


> Why is this topic on this forum? How is this related to soap making? It is a highly charged issue that brings out a million different opinions.


Why are you asking THIS question in the GENERAL CHAT subforum which clearly states what it is about?


----------



## Misschief

Lin19687 said:


> Does anyone have this kind of web site for THEIR STATE specifically like this one here in MASS ?
> Would love to look at them and see how they all compare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ArcGIS Dashboards
> 
> 
> ArcGIS Dashboards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boston.maps.arcgis.com


Here's one for British Columbia. Along the top right are the different health regions in our province. I'm in the Interior. Incidentally, the Interior Health Authority's region is about 8 times the size of Massachusetts.






						Experience
					






					experience.arcgis.com


----------



## SPowers

IdahoSoapMaker said:


> Why is this topic on this forum? How is this related to soap making? It is a highly charged issue that brings out a million different opinions.



I'm with you on this!  There is so much information on the web - which is a good thing... problem is half says 1 thing; the other half says the opposite.  So you either have to do your own research and hopefully you come up with 'real' and accurate info.  But people think differently and absorb information differently.. some believe because it's already part of what they've deemed to be true.  We all have preconceived ideas and basically seek out information that supports us.  That doesn't make it fact.

This virus affects us all and everyone has an opinion - to create a post based on this is just asking for trouble!  Is there a link on politics and/or religion?  I suggest not for obvious reason.  This topics belongs in that category.  No one wins!


----------



## LilyJo

As the person who started this thread, there was no mention of politics or conspiracy theories or statistics.

Just hows everyone doing, anyone affected. Since when was checking in with everyone such a contentious thought?

Anyone on here for any time knows we all talk about much more than soaping, particularly in a general chat sub forum.


----------



## Lin19687

Well you don't have to read what is in the off topic,/ general chat section.
Kinda like why I don't go in the section candle section. I don't care not do I have experience.
I also don't go in the beginners section because I got tied of people asking the same questions that have been asked 1000000 times. But if they had actually searched and read they wouldn't be asking,.....


----------



## beckster51

DeeAnna said:


> @Lin19687 -- Here is the main dashboard for the Johns Hopkins info -- ArcGIS Dashboards
> 
> I'm not sure if this will show you what you want to see, but maybe it will help.
> 
> On the left hand side of the screen, look for the tabs labeled Admin0, Admin1, and Admin2. The Admin0 tab will be active when you first view this map. Click on "US" in the Admin0 list to see just info in the US, for example. Next, click on the Admin1 tab and you'll see a list of states within the US. Click on a state name to narrow your view to the data for that state. Then click on Admin2 to see the county by county info within that state.
> 
> Click and hold the left mouse button and then drag the mouse to change the part of the world you're looking at. Hover over the world map and rotate the wheel on your mouse to zoom in and out.


Thanks, Deanna, I have been looking for this!


----------



## SPowers

Sorry if I was too aggressive in my response.  I understand the intent of the original post.  Too bad when it ends up straying into muddy waters.  My intent was not to offend anyone.


----------



## penelopejane

SPowers said:


> Sorry if I was too aggressive in my response.  I understand the intent of the original post.  Too bad when it ends up straying into muddy waters.  My intent was not to offend anyone.


A few of us have been on this forum for many years.  Seeing our friends around the world suffering is worrying so threads like this are good to reassure ourselves that people are safe and ok.  
As you say, it is a pity when it ends up straying into muddy waters, but that doesn't negate the value of threads like this, especially at such uncertain times as this.  We are battered with the news while in lockdown which is depressing but reading how people are actually coping and working through it all is great, for me at least. It makes me feel not so alone.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

As we begin to consider moving to the next phase of living with this virus, I recommend reading this piece:









						The Risks - Know Them - Avoid Them
					

Please read this link to learn about the author and background to these posts. It seems many people are breathing some relief, and I’m not sure why. An epidemic curve has a relatively predictable upslope and once the peak is reached, the back slope can also be predicted. We have robust data from...




					www.erinbromage.com


----------



## earlene

As a retired RN, it infuriates me when I hear or read statements that blanketly malign or blame the medical profession or it's workers of malfeasance in situations such as this.  

The doctors and nurses and Respiratory Therapists and unnamed others in the field who on a daily basis are putting themselves in close proximity to this illness to provide medical care and life-saving procedures for other human beings, usually total strangers have dedicated their skills, their minds, and their lives to providing the best possible care in circumstances that put not only themselves, but their families at risk.  And don't forget their families!  Their families who support their nurse/husband/son/father/wife/daughter/sister/mother; doctor/wife/mother/sister/husband/son/father/; etc. because the family supports this effort to save lives in spite of the fear they may lose their loved ones as well.

You have no idea (and in fact, neither do I) how scared my family was that my SIL & I would both come out of retirement and go work the front lines with CoVid patients in hospitals and that we would not survive as a result.  They begged us not to do that because they don't want to lose us.  I get that.  Even so, I did look into it, going as far as contacting the California Board of Registered Nursing to inquire about renewing my RN license.  But I did not follow through and honestly, I probably would not be doing anyone any good coming out of retirement at the age of 71 after a recent cardiac procedure anyway, even in the best of times.

My brothers, all just a bit younger than me, are concerned about their families too. Some are ill and have been tested. One brother is in self-quarantine in the parlor while he waits for test results (sore throat - not Strep). Another brother spent a few days worried that his his mother-in-law (our mother's best friend for years, as a matter of fact) and possibly sisters-in-law were infected. The news came back. It was negative, although the MIL is in hospital for pneumonia. Another has been through the scare of his daughter (mother of his very first and only grandchild) being sick and being tested, and coming out negative. That particular brother fears the whole family will die from this disease in one fell swoop. 

I don't think the whole family will die because we have a few generations scattered around the country, and many of them are pretty healthy.  But I do get his fear; my siblings and I are of an age and have some medical factors that do put us at risk, so it's not an unlikely scenario for the elders in the family.  And we are not even the oldest in the family.  We still have living aunts and uncles.  

As I am sure all here do have, extended families scattered near and far and have had your own scares.  And I thank you and commend you all who continue to work on the front lines with those affected by this pandemic, in whatever capacity.  And cheers to your husbands, wives, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles, grandmothers, grandfathers and other loved ones who are either doing the same or support you as you dedicate yourselves to providing care to those in need of care.

PS.  Thank you Mobjack for posting the link to that article.


----------



## shunt2011

SPowers said:


> I'm with you on this!  There is so much information on the web - which is a good thing... problem is half says 1 thing; the other half says the opposite.  So you either have to do your own research and hopefully you come up with 'real' and accurate info.  But people think differently and absorb information differently.. some believe because it's already part of what they've deemed to be true.  We all have preconceived ideas and basically seek out information that supports us.  That doesn't make it fact.
> 
> This virus affects us all and everyone has an opinion - to create a post based on this is just asking for trouble!  Is there a link on politics and/or religion?  I suggest not for obvious reason.  This topics belongs in that category.  No one wins!



Ya'll are more than welcome to just move on to another subject.  This is general chat.  Unless things get out of order it's allowed.  The only thing we don't allow is political/religious specific posts as they are very charged subjects.  Not everyone has the same views.


----------



## IrishLass

IdahoSoapMaker said:


> Why is this topic on this forum? How is this related to soap making? It is a highly charged issue that brings out a million different opinions.



This here thread is located in the General Chat section, which states: 

"Discuss the weather, reality television or anything else that's on your mind. This is the place for all your off topic conversations."

You may or may not not like it, but this topic/thread is not against forum rules and has every right to be here. As all long-term, active members here can attest, certain soaping methods can also be highly charged subjects that bring out a million different opinions here on the forum. Does that mean we should also not allow posts that talk about differing soaping methods, too?

Like Shari said above^^^ if this thread upsets you, y'all are more than welcome to click onto a different thread.


IrishLass


----------



## bookreader451

Lin19687 said:


> Does anyone have this kind of web site for THEIR STATE specifically like this one here in MASS ?
> Would love to look at them and see how they all compare.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ArcGIS Dashboards
> 
> 
> ArcGIS Dashboards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> boston.maps.arcgis.com


Moving on from the above...................here is the NY information. 









						COVID-19 Testing Tracker
					

Statewide tests and positive cases




					covid19tracker.health.ny.gov
				




and on a lighter note staying inside has reduced hubby to watching You Tube fishing videos in foreign languages without English subtitles.


----------



## Catscankim

I am not en Epidemiologist, or a Scientist, or even a Dr or RN. I am a CT Tech. I work in the ER/Trauma. I have been doing my job for 25 years. I can only tell you what I personally see trending with COVID.

The ”Curve” was flattening. Things seemed to be getting better. They removed the tents where potential covids were screened or kept at the hospital until they either got a room or discharged. People were starting to relax. Everything started opening back up.

I can tell you that, by personal observation, IT IS SO MUCH WORSE NOW. We dont have enough beds for them all. I scanned an adult located in the pediatric icu, because our icus are full because one of the icus is now dedicated to covid pts.

This cannot be stressed enough. In the past few weeks, we have gotten...just on my 8 hour shifts, 4-8 covids per shift. Sometimes more if the whole stinkin family shows up at once. Last week I was walking to the employee entrance and 3 men were like hot on my tail, practically breathing down my neck with no masks on. I got in the door and turned around “hi, we tested positive”. I backed up and let the doors close lol. I didnt know what else to do lol. I gestured to them where the ER was and called the charge nurse to give her a heads up that 3 covids were checking in.

My sisters boyfriend owns a shop. Every single one of the guys just tested positive, except for him because he is usually in the office.

The rapid covid test is crap. It has a 30% accuracy rate. Patients come in, test negative...so you feel safe to get them for their test, right? Wrong. Days down the road you are getting a phone call from infection control that you were exposed to that same guy who tested negative with the rapid. And you don't even have time to wait for rapid results with traumas or stroke alerts, so you “assume” everybody is positive.I have made it my practice to write down on my paperwork whether or not i had on an n95 for every pt so i know what to tell infection control when they call.

There was a girl Thursday....generally healthy in her 20s. Cant breathe. Oxygen sats in the 80s. Rapid test is negative. Im like oh hell no. Suited up to scan her. “Bilateral ground glass opacities”, which is the typical covid sign on ct.

Everytime i get a neck or abdominal ct, i get a peek at their lungs. I show the doc, which prompts a covid test. Some of these people dont even have symptoms, but their lungs look like crap.

I feel like everybody has it now. I call the hospital a covid cesspool. And now we are running out of ppe again. I have gone back and forth on my opinions in the past on social distancing and opening things back up. Since we have opened up...its exponentially worse just in a few weeks.

Stay home.


----------



## beckster51

Thanks for the info.  I have been following the news, and I saw that Florida is in trouble.  I hope people begin to realize that social distancing and masks are really your only defense if you are out and about.  I live in TN, and people here are not properly social distancing and wearing masks, and our case numbers and hospitalizations are going up as well, although not as badly as where you are.  Stay safe as you can.  I am a retired nurse, and I cannot imagine how stressful and sad it must be to work in a hospital these days.  I think about you guys every day and am so grateful that we have such a dedicated healthcare workforce.


----------



## LilyJo

Catscankim said:


> I am not en Epidemiologist, or a Scientist, or even a Dr or RN. I am a CT Tech. I work in the ER/Trauma. I have been doing my job for 25 years. I can only tell you what I personally see trending with COVID.
> 
> The ”Curve” was flattening. Things seemed to be getting better. They removed the tents where potential covids were screened or kept at the hospital until they either got a room or discharged. People were starting to relax. Everything started opening back up.
> 
> I can tell you that, by personal observation, IT IS SO MUCH WORSE NOW. We dont have enough beds for them all. I scanned an adult located in the pediatric icu, because our icus are full because one of the icus is now dedicated to covid pts.
> 
> This cannot be stressed enough. In the past few weeks, we have gotten...just on my 8 hour shifts, 4-8 covids per shift. Sometimes more if the whole stinkin family shows up at once. Last week I was walking to the employee entrance and 3 men were like hot on my tail, practically breathing down my neck with no masks on. I got in the door and turned around “hi, we tested positive”. I backed up and let the doors close lol. I didnt know what else to do lol. I gestured to them where the ER was and called the charge nurse to give her a heads up that 3 covids were checking in.
> 
> My sisters boyfriend owns a shop. Every single one of the guys just tested positive, except for him because he is usually in the office.
> 
> The rapid covid test is crap. It has a 30% accuracy rate. Patients come in, test negative...so you feel safe to get them for their test, right? Wrong. Days down the road you are getting a phone call from infection control that you were exposed to that same guy who tested negative with the rapid. And you don't even have time to wait for rapid results with traumas or stroke alerts, so you “assume” everybody is positive.I have made it my practice to write down on my paperwork whether or not i had on an n95 for every pt so i know what to tell infection control when they call.
> 
> There was a girl Thursday....generally healthy in her 20s. Cant breathe. Oxygen sats in the 80s. Rapid test is negative. Im like oh hell no. Suited up to scan her. “Bilateral ground glass opacities”, which is the typical covid sign on ct.
> 
> Everytime i get a neck or abdominal ct, i get a peek at their lungs. I show the doc, which prompts a covid test. Some of these people dont even have symptoms, but their lungs look like crap.
> 
> I feel like everybody has it now. I call the hospital a covid cesspool. And now we are running out of ppe again. I have gone back and forth on my opinions in the past on social distancing and opening things back up. Since we have opened up...its exponentially worse just in a few weeks.
> 
> Stay home.


Thank you for this. In the uk, we see so much huff and puff about the US and it's hard to see where the truth truly lies, which is kinda why I started this thread.

I wondered how bad it was for some of us what the reality was opposed to news or SM. I am so sorry it's got so bad so fast, I hope you are as safe as you can be in the circumstances.

I just wish people trusted the science and understood that this is still out there, people are still dying.


----------



## Catscankim

How has it been in the UK overall? I see nothing on the news about you guys. I have a friend over there but i keep forgetting to ask him.


----------



## DeeAnna

I watch this site -- Rt Covid-19 -- that shows how the covid virus is spreading in the US. 

The goal for Rt, the effective reproduction number, is to be under 1, which basically means each contagious person is infecting less than one other person and the rate of infections is slowing. 

Two months ago, 45 states had an Rt below 1, a good sign. At that time, @Catscankim 's home state of Florida was at Rt=0.87. 

The latest Rt numbers show only half of the states now have an Rt below 1. Florida is currently at 1.39 and is showing a sharp increase in new cases, so the Rt is likely to rise even higher.  Hawaii is another state with a similar trend.


----------



## rdc1978

Catscankim said:


> I am not en Epidemiologist, or a Scientist, or even a Dr or RN. I am a CT Tech. I work in the ER/Trauma. I have been doing my job for 25 years. I can only tell you what I personally see trending with COVID.
> 
> The ”Curve” was flattening. Things seemed to be getting better. They removed the tents where potential covids were screened or kept at the hospital until they either got a room or discharged. People were starting to relax. Everything started opening back up.
> 
> I can tell you that, by personal observation, IT IS SO MUCH WORSE NOW. We dont have enough beds for them all. I scanned an adult located in the pediatric icu, because our icus are full because one of the icus is now dedicated to covid pts.
> 
> This cannot be stressed enough. In the past few weeks, we have gotten...just on my 8 hour shifts, 4-8 covids per shift. Sometimes more if the whole stinkin family shows up at once. Last week I was walking to the employee entrance and 3 men were like hot on my tail, practically breathing down my neck with no masks on. I got in the door and turned around “hi, we tested positive”. I backed up and let the doors close lol. I didnt know what else to do lol. I gestured to them where the ER was and called the charge nurse to give her a heads up that 3 covids were checking in.
> 
> My sisters boyfriend owns a shop. Every single one of the guys just tested positive, except for him because he is usually in the office.
> 
> The rapid covid test is crap. It has a 30% accuracy rate. Patients come in, test negative...so you feel safe to get them for their test, right? Wrong. Days down the road you are getting a phone call from infection control that you were exposed to that same guy who tested negative with the rapid. And you don't even have time to wait for rapid results with traumas or stroke alerts, so you “assume” everybody is positive.I have made it my practice to write down on my paperwork whether or not i had on an n95 for every pt so i know what to tell infection control when they call.
> 
> There was a girl Thursday....generally healthy in her 20s. Cant breathe. Oxygen sats in the 80s. Rapid test is negative. Im like oh hell no. Suited up to scan her. “Bilateral ground glass opacities”, which is the typical covid sign on ct.
> 
> Everytime i get a neck or abdominal ct, i get a peek at their lungs. I show the doc, which prompts a covid test. Some of these people dont even have symptoms, but their lungs look like crap.
> 
> I feel like everybody has it now. I call the hospital a covid cesspool. And now we are running out of ppe again. I have gone back and forth on my opinions in the past on social distancing and opening things back up. Since we have opened up...its exponentially worse just in a few weeks.
> 
> Stay home.



Thank you for posting this.  Our state has been very conservative about reopening and we are under an order to wear masks in public places.  

But it looks like gyms will reopen in early July and I really want to go back because I kinda miss their professional grade machines versus the $123 one I bought on Amazon (which does a great job for for what it is). 

I was thinking that maybe I should just risk it and go, but I think your post will have me thinking twice and three times.


----------



## Catscankim

WOW. Super informative. Is that site accurate?  I have learned to fact check almost everything. Sad state of affairs we live in. Thats why i stress that my post is personal observation. I dont have data, just know what i see. I havent looked at your site but i will. Im intrigued.



rdc1978 said:


> Thank you for posting this.  Our state has been very conservative about reopening and we are under an order to wear masks in public places.
> 
> But it looks like gyms will reopen in early July and I really want to go back because I kinda miss their professional grade machines versus the $123 one I bought on Amazon (which does a great job for for what it is).
> 
> I was thinking that maybe I should just risk it and go, but I think your post will have me thinking twice and three times.



When our state first opened i was super excited. I play pool on a pool leage, and my friends are the owners of my pool room (and financially suffering). I went to a memorial day party (outside bbq) and went to the poolroom once.

I know the virus takes like 2 weeks to incubate. But i got super nervous, retrospectively. So i stayed in from then on, except work and food shopping.

Glad i did. Cause from what i see now....its insane. Again, my opinion. Just an observation from the front line.


----------



## bookreader451

beckster51 said:


> Thanks for the info.  I have been following the news, and I saw that Florida is in trouble.  I hope people begin to realize that social distancing and masks are really your only defense if you are out and about.  I live in TN, and people here are not properly social distancing and wearing masks, and our case numbers and hospitalizations are going up as well, although not as badly as where you are.  Stay safe as you can.  I am a retired nurse, and I cannot imagine how stressful and sad it must be to work in a hospital these days.  I think about you guys every day and am so grateful that we have such a dedicated healthcare workforce.


My girlfriend in Tennessee is planning a 70th birthday trip for her husband to MO.  I don't even fathom traveling now. Here in NY we are still socially distancing and wearing masks in public spaces at all times. I wish masks hadn't become such a political pressure button and people would just do what they have to to ensure there own, and families safety.


----------



## rdc1978

bookreader451 said:


> My girlfriend in Tennessee is planning a 70th birthday trip for her husband to MO.  I don't even fathom traveling now. Here in NY we are still socially distancing and wearing masks in public spaces at all times. I wish masks hadn't become such a political pressure button and people would just do what they have to to ensure there own, and families safety.



I'm happy that my state just made it mandatory.  It seems counterintuitive, but I think it reduces conflict, because business owners can just say "my hands are tied and legally you cannot be in here without a mask"

I love my sister, but she says she is "over it" with respect to wearing a mask.  She goes into stores without one and figures it's okay because she isn't in there a long time and doesn't feel sick.  

She comes from a state without many cases, but she won't wear a mask unless forced.


----------



## DeeAnna

Catscankim said:


> WOW. Super informative. Is that site accurate?...



It jives well with other information I believe to be from respected, factual sources. The Rt numbers shown on this website (Rt Covid-19) doesn't answer all the questions a person might want to know,. so I don't consider it to be the be-all-end-all resource for covid information. That said, it's a good way to get a quick update and monitor trends. Other information sources I follow include these --









						States Are Reopening: See How Coronavirus Cases Rise or Fall
					

As states reopen, see if they meet White House guidelines for reopening and whether their COVID-19 infection rate is increasing or not.



					projects.propublica.org
				






			https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/national/coronavirus-us-cases-deaths/
		


Coronavirus in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count (login required)









						COVID-19 #CoronaVirus Infographic Datapack — Information is Beautiful
					

Updated daily, now with global vaccination stats




					informationisbeautiful.net
				









						ArcGIS Dashboards
					

ArcGIS Dashboards




					www.arcgis.com
				




-- as well as information sources for my home state of Iowa, which most of y'all won't be interested in.

Here is a snapshot of the current hotspots in the US according to the New York Times article "_Coronavirus in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count_". I think the info on this map compares pretty well with the current Rt data I've been talking about in this and my previous post.


----------



## LilianNoir

I can't even with Florida right now, more than usual.
I went out to pick up lye from Lowes (contactless pick up) and maybe1/3 of the people I saw going in and out of the store had masks and of those, like half even had them on correctly.


----------



## tammy sue starks

Catscankim said:


> I am not en Epidemiologist, or a Scientist, or even a Dr or RN. I am a CT Tech. I work in the ER/Trauma. I have been doing my job for 25 years. I can only tell you what I personally see trending with COVID.
> 
> The ”Curve” was flattening. Things seemed to be getting better. They removed the tents where potential covids were screened or kept at the hospital until they either got a room or discharged. People were starting to relax. Everything started opening back up.
> 
> I can tell you that, by personal observation, IT IS SO MUCH WORSE NOW. We dont have enough beds for them all. I scanned an adult located in the pediatric icu, because our icus are full because one of the icus is now dedicated to covid pts.
> 
> This cannot be stressed enough. In the past few weeks, we have gotten...just on my 8 hour shifts, 4-8 covids per shift. Sometimes more if the whole stinkin family shows up at once. Last week I was walking to the employee entrance and 3 men were like hot on my tail, practically breathing down my neck with no masks on. I got in the door and turned around “hi, we tested positive”. I backed up and let the doors close lol. I didnt know what else to do lol. I gestured to them where the ER was and called the charge nurse to give her a heads up that 3 covids were checking in.
> 
> My sisters boyfriend owns a shop. Every single one of the guys just tested positive, except for him because he is usually in the office.
> 
> The rapid covid test is crap. It has a 30% accuracy rate. Patients come in, test negative...so you feel safe to get them for their test, right? Wrong. Days down the road you are getting a phone call from infection control that you were exposed to that same guy who tested negative with the rapid. And you don't even have time to wait for rapid results with traumas or stroke alerts, so you “assume” everybody is positive.I have made it my practice to write down on my paperwork whether or not i had on an n95 for every pt so i know what to tell infection control when they call.
> 
> There was a girl Thursday....generally healthy in her 20s. Cant breathe. Oxygen sats in the 80s. Rapid test is negative. Im like oh hell no. Suited up to scan her. “Bilateral ground glass opacities”, which is the typical covid sign on ct.
> 
> Everytime i get a neck or abdominal ct, i get a peek at their lungs. I show the doc, which prompts a covid test. Some of these people dont even have symptoms, but their lungs look like crap.
> 
> I feel like everybody has it now. I call the hospital a covid cesspool. And now we are running out of ppe again. I have gone back and forth on my opinions in the past on social distancing and opening things back up. Since we have opened up...its exponentially worse just in a few weeks.
> 
> Stay home.


Thank you so much


----------



## KiwiMoose

We had 18 days straight in New Zealand with NO cases of C-19, until two dimwits arrived from the UK to go to a funeral.  All incoming people are quarantined for 14 days in a hotel near the airport, where they are tested once at the 3 day mark, and again at the 12 day mark.  Some idiot-in-charge at the facility saw fit to allow these two compassionate consideration _without being tested_ to attend the funeral, and they drive over 8 hours down the country to get to it ( think stopping for toilet trips, cafes' etc) where it was afterwards discovered that they are C-19 positive!!!  Talk about a public outcry after all our hard work as a country locking down at home for a month, and even then most for us for a further two weeks after that.


----------



## Arimara

rdc1978 said:


> I'm happy that my state just made it mandatory.  It seems counterintuitive, but I think it reduces conflict, because business owners can just say "my hands are tied and legally you cannot be in here without a mask"
> 
> I love my sister, but she says she is "over it" with respect to wearing a mask.  She goes into stores without one and figures it's okay because she isn't in there a long time and doesn't feel sick.
> 
> She comes from a state without many cases, but she won't wear a mask unless forced.



I say let her be for now. Those masks are stifiling and I worry more about what is staying in my nose than what some passerby has. I'm quite sick of the paranoia the media did a fine job of drumming up. If it wasn't for the fact that on public grounds I have to have one, I would not be wearing a mask either. Even when I wear a mask, if the block is empty, that mask is on my chin. If I see people, I'll pull it up until they pass. But I'm tired of making myself sick trying to keep from getting sick.


----------



## Gaisy59

But the problem is that if any covid has attached itself to the mask and you keep pulling it up and down then the main purpose has been defeated because now you keep touching a contaminated mask.

Unless wearers are using the mask properly then it really is a false sense if security.  If you are going to wear a mask sanitize your hands, apply the mask, leave it on until you are totally down wearing it, sanitize your hands, remove it by ear loops then discard or if cloth then wash it.

How many people actually follow thIs procedure?


----------



## LilyJo

I hate how politicised wearing a mask has become.

Quite simply I cant wear one. If I was forced to put one on, I would either vomit within about 2 minutes or have an asthma attack but all people see is me without a mask and assume I am making some of selfish point.

In the uk it's been bad but the numbers are so unreliable it's hard to really know. I think no one will really know how bad it's been anywhere until we can analyse and compare in the same basis- some countries include deaths at home, some don't. Some include confirmed Covid cases only and others include suspected cases as well.

UK govt has, like many others, been pretty inept tbh with conflicting information and bureaucracy hampering the response but the public has, in general, been pretty good.  I have thoroughly enjoyed our lockdown and have no wish to go out but I do know the economy needs a kick start.

My worry is that people think it's all over and its not, the danger is still there especially for vulnerable people like my parents and that terrifies me.


----------



## penelopejane

If you want to know what’s happening in the rest of the world regarding covid 19 this is a good site. If you click on the USA It takes you to a page that gives you stats per sta









						COVID Live Update: 140,558,460 Cases and 3,012,991 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info
				




Not all countries report deaths at home from covid 19 and some deaths aren’t tested for covid 19 so the stats are far worse than these figures suggest which is really, really scary.


----------



## Susie

I live in DFW (Texas, USA for non USA residents), and our numbers have doubled from pre-Memorial Day, pre-protest numbers.  MUCH worse than the first couple of months.  I understand that our economy can't afford to stay shut down forever, but something has to give. 

I sympathize with you people that can't wear a mask.  I hate and despise masks.  Not being able to wear one on a prolonged basis is what kept me from being a surgery nurse.  But you endanger everyone around you when you fail to wear one, or fail to wear it properly.  Co-vid 19 starts out quite symptomless.  You can even be contagious and NEVER KNOW YOU HAD IT.  But the whole time, you are spreading those germs.  So, no, sympathy for you does not make me any less angry at you when I see you in the stores sneezing and coughing with no mask on.  You say it's just allergies (and for sneezing, it is), but what else do you have going on that you don't know about?  Thank you for staying home if you refuse to wear a mask.  Just saying.

When governments mandate mask wearing, it takes the onus of requiring a mask off of the individual business owner.  Thereby leveling the playing field for small businesses and major corporations.  It also LOWERS THE NUMBERS OF CASES in that area.  Period.


----------



## penelopejane

Vietnam has 349 cases And no deaths in a population of 100 million. Those numbers have been verified by foreign officials on the ground.
They listened to the stories coming out of China and shut their borders In early January and quarantined anyone coming into the country or having any contact with anyone who caught the virus. They have posters everywhere and loud speakers in the streets warning about the virus. They have suffered from many epidemics and understand about wearing masks (everyone wears one) and social distancing. If you’ve ever been to Vietnam you’ll understand what a phenomenal job the government there has done to protect its people.


----------



## dianaabuela1

beckster51 said:


> Thanks for the info.  I have been following the news, and I saw that Florida is in trouble.  I hope people begin to realize that social distancing and masks are really your only defense if you are out and about.  I live in TN, and people here are not properly social distancing and wearing masks, and our case numbers and hospitalizations are going up as well, although not as badly as where you are.  Stay safe as you can.  I am a retired nurse, and I cannot imagine how stressful and sad it must be to work in a hospital these days.  I think about you guys every day and am so grateful that we have such a dedicated healthcare workforce.


I live in Florida, I put my mask all the time that I am out. But many people don't care and the social distance not rule it is a mess, they act like everything is ok.


----------



## Adeliepenguin

KiwiMoose said:


> We had 18 days straight in New Zealand with NO cases of C-19, until two dimwits arrived from the UK to go to a funeral.  All incoming people are quarantined for 14 days in a hotel near the airport, where they are tested once at the 3 day mark, and again at the 12 day mark.  Some idiot-in-charge at the facility saw fit to allow these two compassionate consideration _without being tested_ to attend the funeral, and they drive over 8 hours down the country to get to it ( think stopping for toilet trips, cafes' etc) where it was afterwards discovered that they are C-19 positive!!!  Talk about a public outcry after all our hard work as a country locking down at home for a month, and even then most for us for a further two weeks after that.


To be fair they shouldn’t have been allowed to travel out of the U.K. and into New Zealand, or other countries..nobody should until it’s gone, but then will it ever go!? Do we wait until there’s not one case and then open up the boarders but that could be years. They were just following “flawed” guidelines set out by our governments and if they didn’t know they had it they weren’t doing anything wrong and shouldn’t be labelled “dim wits”. It must be so frustrating and I’m sure we will all get cases like these once it settles down in our countries and I fear this will go on for a while like this!


----------



## beckster51

rdc1978 said:


> Thank you for posting this.  Our state has been very conservative about reopening and we are under an order to wear masks in public places.
> 
> But it looks like gyms will reopen in early July and I really want to go back because I kinda miss their professional grade machines versus the $123 one I bought on Amazon (which does a great job for for what it is).
> 
> I was thinking that maybe I should just risk it and go, but I think your post will have me thinking twice and three times.


I, too, would like to go back to the gym, but I think the exposure there is very dangerous.  Lots of heavy breathing, sweating, and shared equipment.  I would find it particularly difficult not to touch my face in that environment.  I am not going back to the gym for a long time.



bookreader451 said:


> My girlfriend in Tennessee is planning a 70th birthday trip for her husband to MO.  I don't even fathom traveling now. Here in NY we are still socially distancing and wearing masks in public spaces at all times. I wish masks hadn't become such a political pressure button and people would just do what they have to to ensure there own, and families safety.


Agree!  Masks are not a political issue, they are a public health issue.


----------



## melinda48

Arimara said:


> I say let her be for now. Those masks are stifiling and I worry more about what is staying in my nose than what some passerby has. I'm quite sick of the paranoia the media did a fine job of drumming up. If it wasn't for the fact that on public grounds I have to have one, I would not be wearing a mask either. Even when I wear a mask, if the block is empty, that mask is on my chin. If I see people, I'll pull it up until they pass. But I'm tired of making myself sick trying to keep from getting sick.


We also have to remember that in order to develop any sort of herd immunity, we have to be exposed. Those who are in high-risk groups should be vigilant and cautious; those who are not in a high-risk category can be a bit more lax. I always have a mask with me. When I am going to be near others, I wear it but I will not wear it out in the fresh air - I will not wear it when I am not near others.


----------



## ShySoaper

Catscankim said:


> I am not en Epidemiologist, or a Scientist, or even a Dr or RN. I am a CT Tech. I work in the ER/Trauma. I have been doing my job for 25 years. I can only tell you what I personally see trending with COVID.
> 
> The ”Curve” was flattening. Things seemed to be getting better. They removed the tents where potential covids were screened or kept at the hospital until they either got a room or discharged. People were starting to relax. Everything started opening back up.
> 
> I can tell you that, by personal observation, IT IS SO MUCH WORSE NOW. We dont have enough beds for them all. I scanned an adult located in the pediatric icu, because our icus are full because one of the icus is now dedicated to covid pts.
> 
> This cannot be stressed enough. In the past few weeks, we have gotten...just on my 8 hour shifts, 4-8 covids per shift. Sometimes more if the whole stinkin family shows up at once. Last week I was walking to the employee entrance and 3 men were like hot on my tail, practically breathing down my neck with no masks on. I got in the door and turned around “hi, we tested positive”. I backed up and let the doors close lol. I didnt know what else to do lol. I gestured to them where the ER was and called the charge nurse to give her a heads up that 3 covids were checking in.
> 
> My sisters boyfriend owns a shop. Every single one of the guys just tested positive, except for him because he is usually in the office.
> 
> The rapid covid test is crap. It has a 30% accuracy rate. Patients come in, test negative...so you feel safe to get them for their test, right? Wrong. Days down the road you are getting a phone call from infection control that you were exposed to that same guy who tested negative with the rapid. And you don't even have time to wait for rapid results with traumas or stroke alerts, so you “assume” everybody is positive.I have made it my practice to write down on my paperwork whether or not i had on an n95 for every pt so i know what to tell infection control when they call.
> 
> There was a girl Thursday....generally healthy in her 20s. Cant breathe. Oxygen sats in the 80s. Rapid test is negative. Im like oh hell no. Suited up to scan her. “Bilateral ground glass opacities”, which is the typical covid sign on ct.
> 
> Everytime i get a neck or abdominal ct, i get a peek at their lungs. I show the doc, which prompts a covid test. Some of these people dont even have symptoms, but their lungs look like crap.
> 
> I feel like everybody has it now. I call the hospital a covid cesspool. And now we are running out of ppe again. I have gone back and forth on my opinions in the past on social distancing and opening things back up. Since we have opened up...its exponentially worse just in a few weeks.
> 
> Stay home.


I really appreciate you putting this kind of information out there. People need to know what is going on around them.


----------



## shunt2011

I too work for the ED as a Manger for the residency program.  I live in Michigan who had some of the highest numbers of COVID patients.   Our hospital (one of 8 in our system)  was at or above capacity with ventilators at it's worst. We converted the majority of our 5 floors into ventilator / covid floors because our ICU couldn't handle it all.    Our hospital system had to convert a laundry facility into a temporary morgue.   All employees were given the opportunity to be tested for antibodies as our system was approved by the FDA to do a study.  What was crazy is I only had 2 residents get sick and not attending's.  Only one of my resident's tested positive for COVID 19.  They weren't testing the majority of residents (21 program) or attending's if they were sick (not enough testing supplies).   When they started the antibody testing only 1 of my resident's tested positive for antibodies.  None of my attending's tested positive.  I tested negative.   They are seriously questioning the accuracy of the antibody tests at this point.  Even employees who tested positive via swab tested negative for antibodies.   So, with that, I don't think we will ever know the true numbers on who was or wasn't sick with/without symptoms.  

I worked in the command center as well and it was always planning in motion to accommodate all the sick.  We had drive-thru covid checks before anyone could enter the hospital and only the most ill were admitted. 

Our numbers have dropped significantly here.  We only have 160 Covid patients in the entire hospital system.  We had over 900 deaths. 

We are required to wear masks at all times inside the hospital.  I wear masks out in public places.  

Our state is pretty much open with limitations on numbers after more than 3 months of lockdown (gyms open Thursday as a court ruled against our governor).  

So far we haven't see any spikes even with all the protests going on.   Hoping it remains so.    

With all that, I'd rather wear a mask and be safe than risk family, friends or others getting ill. Especially since I work in the hot spot.


----------



## paradisi

melinda48 said:


> We also have to remember that in order to develop any sort of herd immunity, we have to be exposed. Those who are in high-risk groups should be vigilant and cautious; those who are not in a high-risk category can be a bit more lax. I always have a mask with me. When I am going to be near others, I wear it but I will not wear it out in the fresh air - I will not wear it when I am not near others.


That's incorrect.  We can, and will, establish herd immunity with vaccination, the same way we did with polio, whooping cough, measles.... 

Wearing a mask in public for the good of all is a tiny thing to ask, and do. And I say that as a claustrophobe for whom wearing a mask is horrid. But I'd feel exponentially worse risking someone else getting sick because of me.


----------



## lucycat

A question for you more knowledgeable people.  I look at the numbers and it appears that the southern states aren't having the death rates that the northern states have had.  Do you have an opinion about why?  Is it because our numbers haven't yet caught up or are doctors/hospitals better able to treat patients now than in Feb-Mar or is it based on how fast it spreads or just the outdoor temps?   

Honestly, when the number of cases are large but the death rate low more people don't see a need to take it seriously.


----------



## bookreader451

lucycat said:


> A question for you more knowledgeable people.  I look at the numbers and it appears that the southern states aren't having the death rates that the northern states have had.  Do you have an opinion about why?  Is it because our numbers haven't yet caught up or are doctors/hospitals better able to treat patients now than in Feb-Mar or is it based on how fast it spreads or just the outdoor temps?
> 
> Honestly, when the number of cases are large but the death rate low more people don't see a need to take it seriously.



I believe the there has been a steep learning curve in the treatment process.  What I don't agree with is calling over 120,000 a low death rate.  That is 120,000 families in mourning and I don't think they care about the percentage that died, only that their loved one did.


----------



## Megan

lucycat said:


> A question for you more knowledgeable people.  I look at the numbers and it appears that the southern states aren't having the death rates that the northern states have had.  Do you have an opinion about why?  Is it because our numbers haven't yet caught up or are doctors/hospitals better able to treat patients now than in Feb-Mar or is it based on how fast it spreads or just the outdoor temps?
> 
> Honestly, when the number of cases are large but the death rate low more people don't see a need to take it seriously.


One issue is that deaths lag behind cases. So generally, when you see an uptick in cases, 2-4 weeks later you will see an uptick in deaths. This is especially a problem when the systems get overwhelmed.


----------



## lucycat

I don't mean 120,000 deaths is low.  In Arkansas we have about 15,000 cases and 225 in deaths.  Comparing to other states, especially ones with early Covid cases the 225 is a much lower number for that many cases.   I am glad it is that but still wonder why.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> I am not en Epidemiologist, or a Scientist, or even a Dr or RN. I am a CT Tech. I work in the ER/Trauma. I have been doing my job for 25 years. I can only tell you what I personally see trending with COVID.
> 
> The ”Curve” was flattening. Things seemed to be getting better. They removed the tents where potential covids were screened or kept at the hospital until they either got a room or discharged. People were starting to relax. Everything started opening back up.
> 
> I can tell you that, by personal observation, IT IS SO MUCH WORSE NOW. We dont have enough beds for them all. I scanned an adult located in the pediatric icu, because our icus are full because one of the icus is now dedicated to covid pts.
> 
> This cannot be stressed enough. In the past few weeks, we have gotten...just on my 8 hour shifts, 4-8 covids per shift. Sometimes more if the whole stinkin family shows up at once. Last week I was walking to the employee entrance and 3 men were like hot on my tail, practically breathing down my neck with no masks on. I got in the door and turned around “hi, we tested positive”. I backed up and let the doors close lol. I didnt know what else to do lol. I gestured to them where the ER was and called the charge nurse to give her a heads up that 3 covids were checking in.
> 
> My sisters boyfriend owns a shop. Every single one of the guys just tested positive, except for him because he is usually in the office.
> 
> The rapid covid test is crap. It has a 30% accuracy rate. Patients come in, test negative...so you feel safe to get them for their test, right? Wrong. Days down the road you are getting a phone call from infection control that you were exposed to that same guy who tested negative with the rapid. And you don't even have time to wait for rapid results with traumas or stroke alerts, so you “assume” everybody is positive.I have made it my practice to write down on my paperwork whether or not i had on an n95 for every pt so i know what to tell infection control when they call.
> 
> There was a girl Thursday....generally healthy in her 20s. Cant breathe. Oxygen sats in the 80s. Rapid test is negative. Im like oh hell no. Suited up to scan her. “Bilateral ground glass opacities”, which is the typical covid sign on ct.
> 
> Everytime i get a neck or abdominal ct, i get a peek at their lungs. I show the doc, which prompts a covid test. Some of these people dont even have symptoms, but their lungs look like crap.
> 
> I feel like everybody has it now. I call the hospital a covid cesspool. And now we are running out of ppe again. I have gone back and forth on my opinions in the past on social distancing and opening things back up. Since we have opened up...its exponentially worse just in a few weeks.
> 
> Stay home.


I am also in Florida, specifically Port St Lucie.  I am a registered nurse working in an out patient surgery center.  We test everyone (several days)  before they have their procedure.  When they come into our facility, they get a mask and a temperature check (and of course the list of questions) - if they have a temp - their procedure is not done.  No friends of family may come inside to wait - the exception is when a procedure is being done on someone who has not achieved the age of 18.  All the nurses have N95 masks, over that we wear a level 2 surgical mask, over that a face shield.  So I feel fairly protected.  It is sad that so many of the people outside are not wearing masks - ever since we opened up, people seem to think the virus has gone away.  It hasn't!  Many of the hospitals nearby are almost full.  Keep up the social distancing and wear a mask when you can't, such as inside a store.  Wash your hands like your life depends on it - it does!


----------



## Megan

lucycat said:


> I don't mean 120,000 deaths is low.  In Arkansas we have about 15,000 cases and 225 in deaths.  Comparing to other states, especially ones with early Covid cases the 225 is a much lower number for that many cases.   I am glad it is that but still wonder why.


A 1.5% death rate is still really deadly when it comes to a common cold virus, but probably closer to the actual death rate of this virus when adequate treatments are available. States that were inundated with cases weren't able to adequately take care of all of their patients and so some that may have lived if they had the resources, still died. It also has to do with population density, and the ability/willingness to social distance. Socioeconomics also comes into play...there are just a lot of factors. So like Louisiana, their death rate is pretty high, if humidity/warm weather or latitude had anything to do with it, you think they wouldn't have fared so badly as they have.


----------



## lucycat

You are right about Louisiana.  It seemed to have an earlier outbreak so if lag time is the biggest difference the statistics in most southern states are going to look a lot different 4-6 weeks from now.


----------



## beckster51

Yep, southern states are just not at their peak yet.  The Health Dept. here in TN is estimating that the true peak of this first wave will not happen until September, maybe late August.  We are, unfortunately, just getting started.


----------



## penelopejane

If you look at this website based on John Hopkins data you’ll see they base the death rate on closed cases.  The covid-19 death rate is 9% currently. This does not take into account, for most countries, people who die at home or people who die but aren’t tested. So the statistics are a lot worse than stated. 








						COVID Live Update: 140,558,460 Cases and 3,012,991 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info
				



CLOSED CASES Worldwide
Cases which had an outcome:   5,373,492
Recovered / Discharged:  4,900,404 (91%)
Deaths:  473,088 (9%)


----------



## KiwiMoose

T


melinda48 said:


> We also have to remember that in order to develop any sort of herd immunity, we have to be exposed. Those who are in high-risk groups should be vigilant and cautious; those who are not in a high-risk category can be a bit more lax. I always have a mask with me. When I am going to be near others, I wear it but I will not wear it out in the fresh air - I will not wear it when I am not near others.


That didn't work so well for Sweden though.


----------



## Jersey Girl

penelopejane said:


> If you look at this website based on John Hopkins data you’ll see they base the death rate on closed cases.  The covid-19 death rate is 9% currently. This does not take into account, for most countries, people who die at home or people who die but aren’t tested. So the statistics are a lot worse than stated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Live Update: 140,558,460 Cases and 3,012,991 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CLOSED CASES Worldwide
> Cases which had an outcome:   5,373,492
> Recovered / Discharged:  4,900,404 (91%)
> Deaths:  473,088 (9%)



It also doesn’t take into account asymptotic cases that recovered which would lower the death rate. In NYC when they started testing for antibodies, some areas recorded nearly 25% had been exposed. We will probably never know the true number. its all very disturbing because of the unknowns.


----------



## Susie

lucycat said:


> You are right about Louisiana.  It seemed to have an earlier outbreak so if lag time is the biggest difference the statistics in most southern states are going to look a lot different 4-6 weeks from now.



Let me preface what I am about to say with a little background.  I was born and raised in Louisiana, and my ancestors go back to landing on the north shore of Lake Ponchatrain back in 1726.  So, Louisiana is HOME.  I love the state, I adore the people, but I also see it for what it really is.  I worked there as a home health and hospice nurse.  So, I understand what role culture has on illness, especially pre-existing chronic illnesses that play such a huge role in the outcome of this virus.

The first problem in Louisiana is that you have a culture built around food and spending time with family and friends.  Rarely does a weekend go by that you don't have a BBQ or other food related get-together.  And no matter what someone's blood pressure or blood sugar is, they are going to eat and "pass the good time".  They also don't care about "some new cold germ".  Maintaining that sense of community is more important.  This is about 85% of the population.  Only about 15% are going to actually try to control their diet and lifestyle at any point during any given week. 

That attitude of "let what happens, happen" also goes to big festivals, like Mardi Gras.  The attitude down there was that they were going to catch "the rona" no matter what, so they may as well have the largest festival that brings in the most tourist money.  It was like a bomb went off down there as far as transmission of Co-vid 19.  You can see it on the graphs. 

So, you take people that are NOT trying to keep their health in good order, and are deluding themselves as to the severity of that virus, and you add the greed of the government entities that made some really bad decisions, and you get what has happened in Louisiana.  Period.

And, please note that no where did I say what color anyone's skin is.  Because it is not a matter of color.  Louisiana is a melting pot of color, culture and everything that goes with it.  It is just Louisiana.


----------



## penelopejane

Jersey Girl said:


> It also doesn’t take into account asymptotic cases that recovered which would lower the death rate. In NYC when they started testing for antibodies, some areas recorded nearly 25% had been exposed. We will probably never know the true number. its all very disturbing because of the unknowns.



Yes except I think the number of people who’ve died without being tested since the beginning of the outbreak is also huge.
I find the whole thing scary


----------



## LilianNoir

I really don't understand why the whole "it's not just about you" part is so difficult for some people. Like YOU might be ok possibly getting this and dying a slow, painful death, but I didn't survive cancer 5 years ago to die now.


----------



## dibbles

I went grocery shopping today, and was surprised to see easily 90% of people wearing masks. Two months ago, I was seeing probably 75% wearing masks and slowly decreasing to about 50% the last time I was there. I'm not saying that this is a trend. I think it was just as likely that it was a coincidence. 

I live in the greater Minneapolis area, and I'm sure most of you have seen footage of the protests that have taken place since the death of George Floyd. What is interesting is that there hasn't as yet been a spike in covid cases. It may still come, but as of today, the number of new cases is declining. I wouldn't have expected to see that at all. The one explanation for that I have heard is that possibly because the protests took place outside and people were moving, the virus didn't spread as you would expect. There were a LOT of people close together for extended periods of time. Some were wearing masks and some weren't.


----------



## Jersey Girl

LilianNoir said:


> I really don't understand why the whole "it's not just about you" part is so difficult for some people. Like YOU might be ok possibly getting this and dying a slow, painful death, but I didn't survive cancer 5 years ago to die now.



Sadly, People can be very selfish.


----------



## jcandleattic

dibbles said:


> I live in the greater Minneapolis area, and I'm sure most of you have seen footage of the protests that have taken place since the death of George Floyd.


Hard not to notice since the protests became world-wide. 

Our numbers here have been rising steadily since partially reopening, but not huge spikes like I expected or have see elsewhere like in FL.


----------



## JoeyJ

Pretty sure our family had it back in March. We weren't allowed testing because of tight restrictions around qualifying and limited supply of testing gear...
still get very tired quickly and no end of lung trouble since. I don't like wearing a mask now because I feel suffocated.  
Western Australia is free of it because of our isolation from the rest of the country, and lockdown is being rolled back again as of Monday. I am so terrified of going thru the same thing again I am happy to stay home...got no money to spend anyway!


----------



## bookreader451

dibbles said:


> I went grocery shopping today, and was surprised to see easily 90% of people wearing masks. Two months ago, I was seeing probably 75% wearing masks and slowly decreasing to about 50% the last time I was there. I'm not saying that this is a trend. I think it was just as likely that it was a coincidence.
> 
> I live in the greater Minneapolis area, and I'm sure most of you have seen footage of the protests that have taken place since the death of George Floyd. What is interesting is that there hasn't as yet been a spike in covid cases. It may still come, but as of today, the number of new cases is declining. I wouldn't have expected to see that at all. The one explanation for that I have heard is that possibly because the protests took place outside and people were moving, the virus didn't spread as you would expect. There were a LOT of people close together for extended periods of time. Some were wearing masks and some weren't.


I am also wondering if the protest being outside and most protesters masked will make a difference.  I am hoping the numbers don't spike for every state.  Then we are back to square one.


----------



## bookreader451

JoeyJ said:


> Pretty sure our family had it back in March. We weren't allowed testing because of tight restrictions around qualifying and limited supply of testing gear...
> still get very tired quickly and no end of lung trouble since. I don't like wearing a mask now because I feel suffocated.
> Western Australia is free of it because of our isolation from the rest of the country, and lockdown is being rolled back again as of Monday. I am so terrified of going thru the same thing again I am happy to stay home...got no money to spend anyway!


Around late February early March my husband was sick.  He had a bad chest thing that dragged on.  One Saturday night he couldn't breath and he didn't want to go to the hospital.  I boiled water and added eucalyptus oil (soap making came in handy) and it loosened him up.  The next morning we went to OnCall and his blood oxygen was at 80% they treated him with two nebulizer (sp?) treatments and sent him home with antibiotics and steroids.  I am convinced he had it.   No one even had really heard of Covid-19 at that point, and they certainly weren't testing.


----------



## dibbles

bookreader451 said:


> I am also wondering if the protest being outside and most protesters masked will make a difference.  I am hoping the numbers don't spike for every state.  Then we are back to square one.


But I wouldn’t say most protesters were wearing masks. Maybe half...maybe. I’d say less from what I saw. We had continuous live coverage here for days because it was local.


----------



## Catscankim

Last night at work i found out...

-our covid floor is full
-they stopped rapid testing patients as of 1:30 pm yesterday afternoon. I dont know why. Yes its highly inaccurate, but it at least gives you a heads up on some patients.
-we are holding some covid patients (generally healthy) outside of the er on a bench
-unconfirmed patients are being sent to the floors (private room)

I havent received a new n95 mask since march

They are requiring us to wear goggles (new rule as of 1:30pm yesterday). YES PLEASE! They are not giving us goggles. Some nurses are sharing. Wheres my fricken goggles?? I cant even get a new mask.

I feel like we live in a 3rd world country.


----------



## Megan

Catscankim said:


> Last night at work i found out...
> 
> -our covid floor is full
> -they stopped rapid testing patients as of 1:30 pm yesterday afternoon. I dont know why. Yes its highly inaccurate, but it at least gives you a heads up on some patients.
> -we are holding some covid patients (generally healthy) outside of the er on a bench
> -unconfirmed patients are being sent to the floors (private room)
> 
> I havent received a new n95 mask since march
> 
> They are requiring us to wear goggles (new rule as of 1:30pm yesterday). YES PLEASE! They are not giving us goggles. Some nurses are sharing. Wheres my fricken goggles?? I cant even get a new mask.
> 
> I feel like we live in a 3rd world country.


Can you order kn-95 online? That's what all of the hospitals here are using bc they can't find n95


----------



## KiwiMoose

I have a bad head cold and so i went and got tested today to be on the safe side.  Gotta wait two days for results...


----------



## Susie

Catscankim said:


> Last night at work i found out...
> 
> -our covid floor is full
> -they stopped rapid testing patients as of 1:30 pm yesterday afternoon. I dont know why. Yes its highly inaccurate, but it at least gives you a heads up on some patients.
> -we are holding some covid patients (generally healthy) outside of the er on a bench
> -unconfirmed patients are being sent to the floors (private room)
> 
> I havent received a new n95 mask since march
> 
> They are requiring us to wear goggles (new rule as of 1:30pm yesterday). YES PLEASE! They are not giving us goggles. Some nurses are sharing. Wheres my fricken goggles?? I cant even get a new mask.
> 
> I feel like we live in a 3rd world country.



I would be spraying that n95 down with alcohol front and back every night until I got someone to sew me some with a filter pocket.  Get an air con filter that can filter down to MPR 1500 or higher and cut it up for filters for it.  No, it probably won't pass a fit test, but it is better than nothing. 

If you don't wear glasses, get one of these that are intended to be worn cutting onions as they have a sponge that catches droplets around the edges:  https://smile.amazon.com/Anti-Fog-No-Tears-Tearless-Dust-proof-Grilling/dp/B086C1FTTL/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=23P4QZYN76OR0&dchild=1&keywords=goggles+for+cutting+onions&qid=1592999008&sprefix=goggle+for+cutt,aps,176&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFUNDFWS0w3U1FFWlAmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA4NzU4OTUyTTAzU1VTVjJFNFpCJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAwNjUzMjkyQlhGRjQ2Q1JXSElFJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

And finally, I am shocked and absolutely furious that they are treating y'all this way!  How dare they not take care of the people they want to take care of all the sickest???


----------



## Susie

I went to the doctor yesterday for bronchitis, turns out I have pneumonia.  The chest x-ray does not look consistent with co-vid 19 yet, although I have heard of people that were diagnosed with pneumonia and actually had co-vid 19.  And I am not running any fever. I have fibromyalgia that makes me feel like I have the flu all of the time (worse with our recent stormy weather), so diagnosing muscle aches is difficult.  Antibiotics are being called in today. 

If anyone prays, I am asking for prayers that this is just pneumonia, and not co-vid 19.  I am immunocompromised, so at high risk to be the sickest.


----------



## rdc1978

Susie said:


> I went to the doctor yesterday for bronchitis, turns out I have pneumonia.  The chest x-ray does not look consistent with co-vid 19 yet, although I have heard of people that were diagnosed with pneumonia and actually had co-vid 19.  And I am not running any fever. I have fibromyalgia that makes me feel like I have the flu all of the time (worse with our recent stormy weather), so diagnosing muscle aches is difficult.  Antibiotics are being called in today.
> 
> If anyone prays, I am asking for prayers that this is just pneumonia, and not co-vid 19.  I am immunocompromised, so at high risk to be the sickest.



Oh no!  I'm so sorry to hear this, I hope it's not covid and that you're on the mend soon.  I had the lowest grade pnuemonia before and it was awful so I hope you're able to be comfortable and get better.  Fingers crossed for you and sending you positive vibes.


----------



## Ladka

Susie said:


> I went to the doctor yesterday for bronchitis, turns out I have pneumonia.  The chest x-ray does not look consistent with co-vid 19 yet, although I have heard of people that were diagnosed with pneumonia and actually had co-vid 19.  And I am not running any fever. I have fibromyalgia that makes me feel like I have the flu all of the time (worse with our recent stormy weather), so diagnosing muscle aches is difficult.  Antibiotics are being called in today.
> 
> If anyone prays, I am asking for prayers that this is just pneumonia, and not co-vid 19.  I am immunocompromised, so at high risk to be the sickest.


You have my prayers, Susie.


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## MarnieSoapien

@Susie sending positive thoughts your way! I hope you feel better soon.


----------



## bookreader451

Sending positive vibes for a speedy recovery


----------



## jcandleattic

dibbles said:


> We had continuous live coverage here for days because it was local.


It was pretty local everywhere. We also had protests and live coverage for almost 7 days. (actually there are still pockets of protesters here) They started in MN, but soon moved nationally, then globally. 
And yes, from what I saw you are right, maybe - big maybe - half or less were wearing masks. I think when people were getting gassed though, the ones without masks wished they had them. 

I've seen a lot of states that have opened up are now just as bad if not worse with cases than they were at their peaks. And as Catscankim said, hospitals are being overwhelmed - again. But nobody seems to care, and it's the indifference to it all that is so FRUSTRATING.


----------



## dibbles

jcandleattic said:


> It was pretty local everywhere. We also had protests and live coverage for almost 7 days. (actually there are still pockets of protesters here) They started in MN, but soon moved nationally, then globally.
> And yes, from what I saw you are right, maybe - big maybe - half or less were wearing masks. I think when people were getting gassed though, the ones without masks wished they had them.
> 
> I've seen a lot of states that have opened up are now just as bad if not worse with cases than they were at their peaks. And as Catscankim said, hospitals are being overwhelmed - again. But nobody seems to care, and it's the indifference to it all that is so FRUSTRATING.


I am sure it was well covered elsewhere. I was just responding to a comment on my post about what I saw here - if the coverage elsewhere of what happened here is like the coverage we saw of what was happening in other areas it was very minimal and could show just a short clip where most people were wearing masks. I'm talking about local coverage - not a national cable new source. And what I saw here, as well as what you saw where you are - a large percentage of people weren't wearing masks.

I also agree with you that the indifference seems to be growing, and it is very frustrating.


----------



## Arimara

Susie said:


> I went to the doctor yesterday for bronchitis, turns out I have pneumonia.  The chest x-ray does not look consistent with co-vid 19 yet, although I have heard of people that were diagnosed with pneumonia and actually had co-vid 19.  And I am not running any fever. I have fibromyalgia that makes me feel like I have the flu all of the time (worse with our recent stormy weather), so diagnosing muscle aches is difficult.  Antibiotics are being called in today.
> 
> If anyone prays, I am asking for prayers that this is just pneumonia, and not co-vid 19.  I am immunocompromised, so at high risk to be the sickest.


I pray but I'm going to ask you to have enough faith to believe that someone is praying for you. You'd be surprised that a tiny speck of faith for that one thing can help.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Will be saying prayers for your speedy recovery Susie.


----------



## TashaBird

I’ve been a massage therapist for 30 years. We were scheduled to open back up mid august, but it just got moved to now. So sad that the thought of the work I have loved for so long now gives me so much anxiety that it’s making me sick. I’m going to wait as long as I can, and I don’t have any other choice really. I’m so scared and I can’t post on any other social media because I have clients that would read it. Sky rocketing numbers and stories like the ones I‘m reading here and elsewhere are not reassuring. Thanks for this thread!


----------



## TashaBird

Catscankim said:


> Last night at work i found out...
> 
> -our covid floor is full
> -they stopped rapid testing patients as of 1:30 pm yesterday afternoon. I dont know why. Yes its highly inaccurate, but it at least gives you a heads up on some patients.
> -we are holding some covid patients (generally healthy) outside of the er on a bench
> -unconfirmed patients are being sent to the floors (private room)
> 
> I havent received a new n95 mask since march
> 
> They are requiring us to wear goggles (new rule as of 1:30pm yesterday). YES PLEASE! They are not giving us goggles. Some nurses are sharing. Wheres my fricken goggles?? I cant even get a new mask.
> 
> I feel like we live in a 3rd world country.


This material can be used as a filter equivalent to N95, for anyone making masks. It can be sterilized in the oven, or autoclave. It’s called Halyard H600.  Hospitals are using it for reusable masks. My friend made me some to go into my cloth masks. I don’t wear the filter when I’m walking the dog, but I do when I go to peopley places.


----------



## Catscankim

KiwiMoose said:


> I have a bad head cold and so i went and got tested today to be on the safe side.  Gotta wait two days for results...


Thats the best test. the rapid 30 minute is crap


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## Catscankim

Catscankim said:


> Thats the best test. the rapid 30 minute is crap


And head stuff is probably not covid. its all chest stuff. If that makes you feel better


----------



## rdc1978

Catscankim said:


> And head stuff is probably not covid. its all chest stuff. If that makes you feel better



I'd say about once every other week, I'm convinced I have COVID 19 because my throat is a little raw, I sneeze and I keep having to cough and clear my throat. 

But then I realize that it's super windy up here and it's spring/summer allergy season and that's probably it.  It's just so disconcerting because I'm in a high risk group so I'm really afraid.  

Thankfully, I don't have to be out and about too often.  I'm sorry for those of you who don't want to be out, but are forced to be.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Catscankim said:


> Thats the best test. the rapid 30 minute is crap


We don’t have a rapid test here that I know of.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Catscankim said:


> And head stuff is probably not covid. its all chest stuff. If that makes you feel better


Well I do have a very phlegmy cough now.


----------



## Catscankim

I am a ct tech, so i only know what I see. maybe one of our nurses here can chime in. If you got tested already, wait for the test. If you feel really sick, you should go to the er or at least call your doctor.

But please, do not just show up to the ER unannounced. Call first and let them know you are coming in with symptoms


----------



## KiwiMoose

Catscankim said:


> I am a ct tech, so i only know what I see. maybe one of our nurses here can chime in. If you got tested already, wait for the test. If you feel really sick, you should go to the er or at least call your doctor.
> 
> But please, do not just show up to the ER unannounced. Call first and let them know you are coming in with symptoms


It’s ok - we have designated Covid 19 testing stations in every town. But the chance of me having it is unlikely. We have not had any community transmissions for almost a month.


----------



## Susie

Catscankim said:


> I am a ct tech, so i only know what I see. maybe one of our nurses here can chime in. If you got tested already, wait for the test. If you feel really sick, you should go to the er or at least call your doctor.
> 
> But please, do not just show up to the ER unannounced. Call first and let them know you are coming in with symptoms



Before anyone goes anywhere when they think they may have Co-vid 19, they need to call first.  Even to go to the drive through testing stations, they ask that you make a reservation first.  No one wants to unexpectedly have someone who may be contagious.  Even though the doctor's office and the radiology clinic were doing full mask, goggles, gloves, cleaning precautions, I had to do a questionnaire screening.


----------



## beckster51

@Susie I am thinking of you and hoping you have a mild pneumonia that clears soon.  Take really good care of yourself, drink plenty of liquids, rest, eat well, and be positive.  Lots of folks are pulling for you.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Got my results back this morning - it's a negative.  Just a cold thank goodness.


----------



## dibbles

@Susie I hope you are feeling better soon. It feels odd to say I am hoping it really is ‘just’ pneumonia. Take care.


----------



## beckster51

KiwiMoose said:


> Got my results back this morning - it's a negative.  Just a cold thank goodness.


YAY!!!!


----------



## MarnieSoapien

The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time. 

We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in. 

Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.


----------



## Catscankim

KiwiMoose said:


> Got my results back this morning - it's a negative.  Just a cold thank goodness.


Im so happy for you. Feel better! I know its unnerving. Every cough and sneeze is like....its covid. Take care. And its allergy season too. Which sucks.


----------



## Catscankim

TashaBird said:


> This material can be used as a filter equivalent to N95, for anyone making masks. It can be sterilized in the oven, or autoclave. It’s called Halyard H600.  Hospitals are using it for reusable masks. My friend made me some to go into my cloth masks. I don’t wear the filter when I’m walking the dog, but I do when I go to peopley places.


I would like to know how to buy this fabric. I can sew masks


----------



## KiwiMoose

MarnieSoapien said:


> The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time.
> 
> We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in.
> 
> Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.


It's difficult for the social butterflies - my mum went a bit stir crazy, but luckily we only had a 4 week lockdown.  The only other thing to suggest is online gaming - of the more mature kind - scrabble etc?


----------



## TashaBird

Catscankim said:


> I would like to know how to buy this fabric. I can sew masks


There are many online sources. My friend who made the inserts for me is a biochemist with compromised immune system. Do not wash the fabric, but it can be sterilized in the oven At 165 for 30 minutes.








						Halyard Health Sequential Sterilization Wraps H600 Fabric Heavy Duty
					

USA Medical & Surgical Supplies is your source for great buys on thousands of medical, surgical and home medical products, equipment and supplies. Shop now!




					www.usamedicalsurgical.com


----------



## DeeAnna

Wow, @TashaBird -- thanks for suggesting this idea. A case of 48 sheets, 48" x 48" per sheet, is about $88 plus shipping. That would make a TON of inserts for masks. Or I suppose you could make masks directly from this material.

I wonder if people are doing a "group buy" kind of thing where a case of these sheets is divided amongst a group of people. That would make it more affordable and reasonable. I suspect many people don't need a whole case of this stuff.


----------



## AliOop

Susie said:


> I went to the doctor yesterday for bronchitis, turns out I have pneumonia.  The chest x-ray does not look consistent with co-vid 19 yet, although I have heard of people that were diagnosed with pneumonia and actually had co-vid 19.  And I am not running any fever. I have fibromyalgia that makes me feel like I have the flu all of the time (worse with our recent stormy weather), so diagnosing muscle aches is difficult.  Antibiotics are being called in today.
> 
> If anyone prays, I am asking for prayers that this is just pneumonia, and not co-vid 19.  I am immunocompromised, so at high risk to be the sickest.


Just seeing this now. Praying for you, Susie!!


----------



## Daisy

MarnieSoapien said:


> The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time.
> 
> We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in.
> 
> Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.



I have just danced to "Long Live" by For King and Country. It's a beautiful song to waken ones dreams.

Maybe every day you can send her a song with lyrics and she can dance and sing along for exercise. 
It doesn't matter how old she is. Music is a cure for isolation


----------



## dippy

I don't know what it is like in the rest of the world but where I am in the UK there seems a general attitude now that Covid has gone away. Health professionals I have spoken to have said a second wave is inevitable. We have beaches and local beauty spots crawling with people not distancing as we have had a recent heatwave. 

I had Covid in March and I am early 40s fit and healthy with an active job but it floored me. It took me 2 months for my lungs to fully recover. It can hit anyone hard.  I wish people would take it more seriously.


----------



## Misschief

dippy said:


> I don't know what it is like in the rest of the world but where I am in the UK there seems a general attitude now that Covid has gone away. Health professionals I have spoken to have said a second wave is inevitable. We have beaches and local beauty spots crawling with people not distancing as we have had a recent heatwave.
> 
> I had Covid in March and I am early 40s fit and healthy with an active job but it floored me. It took me 2 months for my lungs to fully recover. It can hit anyone hard.  I wish people would take it more seriously.


I fear that for our area. Kelowna is a resort area; we have a large lake, mountains near by and a lot of summer homes owned by out of province owners. They're coming in droves from a province that has more cases than we have. I think it's just a matter of time.


----------



## Nostalgicgranny

MarnieSoapien said:


> The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time.
> 
> We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in.
> 
> Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.


Have her call the local food bank and see if they have needed items. She can organize a fund raiser or shelf stocking ( nonperishable food items and toiletries online via facebook and front yard sign. Once the items are collected either you or someone from the foodbank can pick them up and deliver them for her. 
If she can drive have her get out of the house and site see. You can talk to her about what she has seen.
Find out if her church has a FB page. If so she can interact with her church family on that page. If a church member is in need she can make a hot dish and set it on their steps or even bring anything else to drop off for the one in need. All without face to face contact. 
If she sews, face masks are needed at most charities.  Maybe even needed at her church.


----------



## Susie

My church has live services on Facebook.  My Sunday School teacher even does lessons there, in addition to Zoom meeting discussion of the lessons.

Maybe she and her friends can get together on Face Time or some such?  I know that one nursing home here has board games set up with a web cam so that residents can play games with their family members.  Each end has another web cam on the people playing.  

Even if she doesn't currently have hobbies outside of meeting with friends, now is a great time to start a hobby.  It is a sanity saver.


----------



## Kathy_VaO

KiwiMoose said:


> Well I do have a very phlegmy cough now.


Mullein tea is good for this.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

@Susie @Nostalgicgranny Thanks for the suggestions! She and my aunt and uncle watch church services every week via zoom or whichever platform they use. I suggested the app 1 Second a Day for her to record a one second videos each day and it makes a video at the end of the month. I'll suggest the other ideas and see if anything motivates her.


----------



## DKing

Misschief said:


> I fear that for our area. Kelowna is a resort area; we have a large lake, mountains near by and a lot of summer homes owned by out of province owners. They're coming in droves from a province that has more cases than we have. I think it's just a matter of time.


It is absolutely true.  So many people here are acting like there are no concerns.  My son and I went to Costco a few days ago and we were 2 of the few people who were wearing masks within the store.  There were elderly and what appeared to be a woman with cancer, not taking any precautions at all.  Costco was offering free masks at the entrance for any who would be willing to wear one and still there were few takers.  We are a very high destination location for tourists and I have been seeing the out of province plates on cars everywhere.  If a location in BC gets hit with an influx of new cluster cases, it will likely be us.  I don't understand why people won't take this more seriously and protect themselves and others by simply wearing a mask to reduce the risk of transmission.  My son is in his mid 20's so likely not at much risk for serious illness, but if he has enough respect to wear a mask to reduce his risk of unintentionally passing it on if he were asymptomatic, should not those who could potentially really suffer not take equal or greater precautions?


----------



## dippy

Quite right dking. I have had the same frustrations here. We came out of quarantine the day lockdown started in the UK and even though we have had it we have followed the lockdown rules out of respect to others who are vulnerable as it's not worth taking any chances. 

Our next door neighbours are elderly and throughout lockdown they have been entertaining friends in their garden!! 

Lockdown rules have eased a bit in the UK recently but just yesterday I was out with my 15 year old daughter and an old lady tried to come up close to her and touch her arm. My daughter said 'please don't we have to distance' and the woman said 'don't worry about that dear'. I absolutely despair of the situation.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> Last night at work i found out...
> 
> -our covid floor is full
> -they stopped rapid testing patients as of 1:30 pm yesterday afternoon. I dont know why. Yes its highly inaccurate, but it at least gives you a heads up on some patients.
> -we are holding some covid patients (generally healthy) outside of the er on a bench
> -unconfirmed patients are being sent to the floors (private room)
> 
> I havent received a new n95 mask since march
> 
> They are requiring us to wear goggles (new rule as of 1:30pm yesterday). YES PLEASE! They are not giving us goggles. Some nurses are sharing. Wheres my fricken goggles?? I cant even get a new mask.
> 
> I feel like we live in a 3rd world country.


That's horrible!  I am a nurse also.  I work in an outpatient surgery center.  We were closed for 1 month but reopened for urgent cases in May.  We are all required to wear a N95 mask, with a level 2 mask on top and a face shield on top of that.  For 8 hours!  We get a new N95 mask every 5 wearings.  We are also required to change into scrubs when we arrive and wear shoe covers and a hair net.  I feel pretty safe actually - but wearing those masks all day is brutal.  I only work part time - so I feel bad for the full time nurses.


----------



## AliOop

*The issue of mask-wearing is complex*. I do my best to wear one when in crowds, but I do seriously consider the viewpoints of those who don't. That way, instead of being angry at those people, I can acknowledge that they have some valid perspectives, even if their decisions differ from mine.

*Here are some of the perspectives I've heard from those who choose not to wear masks:*

~ When COVID first appeared, we were told repeatedly that masks don't help. There are still no strong scientific studies confirming that masks do help. What does help? Social distancing, frequent hand-washing, and isolation of those who have been or may have been infected. The CDC website even says that "the cloth face cover is not a substitute for social distancing."

~ During the SARS outbreak years ago, we all saw pictures of mask-wearing people in affected countries. These articles contained prominent statements advising everyone that masks don't prevent the spread of disease at all; they just make people relax and feel better about going out.

~ Many people have issues with asthma or a mental health issue, and cannot wear masks, period. You cannot tell whether someone has a breathing problem or mental health issue by how fit or "normal" they appear to be. (Note: I personally have asthma and have to remove my mask immediately if I sense that my levels are dropping).

~ People who do wear face coverings are constantly touching them. By doing this, they are picking up all the germs they've breathed out into the mask. Then they are touching everything in the store or other public place, and then touching their faces again to adjust the mask. Thus, it is quite possible that more germs are being transmitted by mask wearing, than by going without masks.

~ Social isolation has a proven negative effect on one's immune system and overall health, and masks exacerbate the isolation.

*Again, I am not saying that I agree with all of these points. *However, if we seek to understand why someone may think or behave differently than we do, it helps us not be angry, upset, or anxious towards them - all of which emotions are also bad for our immune systems.


----------



## Arimara

@AliOop  I prefer being able to breath as God intended us to breath. I really don't think those masks are doing us any good if people are starting to get dizzy and pass out from lack of oxygen.


----------



## AliOop

Arimara said:


> @AliOop  I prefer being able to breath as God intended us to breath. I really don't think those masks are doing us any good if people are starting to get dizzy and pass out from lack of oxygen.


I totally respect that and believe it is a valid position. I agree that we can make ourselves sick from not having fresh oxygen. 

Bottom line, there are competing and valid concerns on both sides of the mask-wearing issue. 

My main point was that acknowledging validity of someone else's choices, even when they are different than ours, can relieve some of our anger and stress that is generated when we see them making choices that we would not make.


----------



## Arimara

AliOop said:


> I totally respect that and believe it is a valid position. I agree that we can make ourselves sick from not having fresh oxygen.
> 
> Bottom line, there are competing and valid concerns on both sides of the mask-wearing issue.
> 
> My main point was that acknowledging validity of someone else's choices, even when they are different than ours, can relieve some of our anger and stress that is generated when we see them making choices that we would not make.


It would but then some people are some people.


----------



## Sharyn

AliOop said:


> Just seeing this now. Praying for you, Susie!!


Healing prayers for you Susie


----------



## KiwiMoose

The rest of world is watching the USA and the debates going on around masks, staying at home, and freedom of choice. It seems to us here in NZ, having put in the hard yards as a country to eradicate Covid-19, silly that people wouldn't do all that they can to minimise the spread of the disease.
If you have surgery (in a non- covid world) would you be happy if the surgeon didn't wear a mask?  He/she does so to prevent YOU from getting any germs.
If you don't want to go out with a mask where it is mandated to do so - then by all means, don't wear a mask - BUT don't go out.  Don't deliberately buck the system and try and force your 'rights' on others who are doing their best to stop the spread.  It seems a selfish approach to think that you are somehow special enough to not wear a mask, or to be able to go out and walk around freely in the middle of a lockdown.  When we had our lockdown those who had special requirements had a helpline to call for assistance, and we were urged to check on elderly neighbours or vulnerable people to collect groceries on their behalf, or to pick up prescriptions for them.  Not to get within 2 metres of them - but to help out where we could.
I understand that it is difficult operating in a crisis under the country's current leadership - who, I'm sorry to say, that the rest of the world (yes I have a large number of friends in Australia, Europe and the United Kingdom too) thinks is an absolute idiot.
If each of us do our very best to stop this virus spreading then surely the crisis will be over sooner rather than later. The USA has the worst spread, the most deaths, the most people infected in the world.  Doesn't that say anything?
Sorry - I'm not usually one to write controversial posts but I find it really frustrating standing by and watching this debate.  I will duck for cover now and accept that I may well be verbally assaulted.


----------



## Gaisy59

Kathy_VaO said:


> Mullein tea is good for this.


Interesting!


----------



## AliOop

@KiwiMoose I would never verbally assault you. I agree that your points are valid.

I also think that some of the points of non-mask wearers (which I listed) are valid. In other words, there is no perfect solution to the problem, and getting upset at each other over differing opinions only raises our stress levels so we don't think clearly or act wisely and compassionately.

Masks or no masks aside, the US has a lot of reasons for why our rates are highest:
~much more open borders than other countries that were smart enough to lock down sooner
~lack of good tests available to catch infections sooner
~failure to actively trace and isolate those who have had contact with infected persons
~false inflation of numbers even when no tests confirmed that COVID was the cause of death. Why? because the hospitals are paid more for COVID deaths. I know this from my friend who works in finances at a local hospital.


----------



## Arimara

AliOop said:


> @KiwiMoose I would never verbally assault you. I agree that your points are valid.
> 
> I also think that some of the points of non-mask wearers (which I listed) are valid. In other words, there is no perfect solution to the problem, and getting upset at each other over differing opinions only raises our stress levels so we don't think clearly or act wisely and compassionately.
> 
> Masks or no masks aside, the US has a lot of reasons for why our rates are highest:
> ~much more open borders than other countries that were smart enough to lock down sooner
> ~lack of good tests available to catch infections sooner
> ~failure to actively trace and isolate those who have had contact with infected persons
> ~*false inflation of numbers even when no tests confirmed that COVID was the cause of death. Why? because the hospitals are paid more for COVID deaths. I know this from my friend who works in finances at a local hospital.*


If that's true, I want to know the real numbers of who died from Coronavirus and I want to know if my mom's friend from chruch really died from that as well.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

I worked as a medical records coordinator in the US before moving to Denmark 5 years ago. I've seen a few death certificates and from what I remember, there are 4 lines under cause of death. So, the covid cases might seem skewed if a person has a heart attack and dies but was also positive for covid. That could be listed on the death certificate as a cause of death even if it wasn't a direct cause (does that make sense?).
As far as hospitals getting more money for covid cases, I think this has a lot to do with the amount of time and care a covid patient needs vs a non-covid patient. I can only hope doctors and hospitals are being honest and not trying to inflate numbers.


----------



## mishmish

Speaking of the corona virus, the government gave 7.3M$ to a start-up company in Houston called Fillakit (founded six days before landing the govt contract, by a shady guy who has run scams before) that was supposed to provide test tubes for the covid tests, but instead sent non-sterile soda bottle "blanks" (intended to be expanded to become 2 liter soda bottles) that can't be used as test tubes, don't fit into the test tube holders, were contaminated, and were loaded into plastic bins and rental trucks by workers with snow shovels, working from a garage. FEMA has sent these to 50 states, and they are all unusable. Your tax dollars at work, folks. If they finish their "contract", they'll get a total of 10.16M$. Heaven help us.
h ttps://meteor.news/2020/06/18/the-trump-administration-paid-millions-for-test-tubes-and-got-unusable-mini-soda-bottles/


----------



## beckster51

DeeAnna said:


> Wow, @TashaBird -- thanks for suggesting this idea. A case of 48 sheets, 48" x 48" per sheet, is about $88 plus shipping. That would make a TON of inserts for masks. Or I suppose you could make masks directly from this material.
> 
> I wonder if people are doing a "group buy" kind of thing where a case of these sheets is divided amongst a group of people. That would make it more affordable and reasonable. I suspect many people don't need a whole case of this stuff.


I found a smaller quantity on sale on Etsy.  I certainly could not use a huge amount of this, and it can be very expensive.  (Which I find hilarious since you can get it for free if you work in a hospital.  Most of the sterile trays come wrapped in it.)  So, I would suggest anyone interested look on Etsy.


----------



## cm4bleenmb

TashaBird said:


> There are many online sources. My friend who made the inserts for me is a biochemist with compromised immune system. Do not wash the fabric, but it can be sterilized in the oven At 165 for 30 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Halyard Health Sequential Sterilization Wraps H600 Fabric Heavy Duty
> 
> 
> USA Medical & Surgical Supplies is your source for great buys on thousands of medical, surgical and home medical products, equipment and supplies. Shop now!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.usamedicalsurgical.com


I went to the link and if I am understanding the quality statistics of this, you could buy the H100 and it would be just as effective but much lighter on the face. (If someone who knows could chime in, that would be great.) And it comes in a 12 x 12 size, 1000 of them for less than $50.


----------



## penelopejane

MarnieSoapien said:


> The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time.
> 
> We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in.
> 
> Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.


What about zoom if she’s computer savvy?


----------



## Karen May

AliOop said:


> @KiwiMoose I would never verbally assault you. I agree that your points are valid.
> 
> I also think that some of the points of non-mask wearers (which I listed) are valid. In other words, there is no perfect solution to the problem, and getting upset at each other over differing opinions only raises our stress levels so we don't think clearly or act wisely and compassionately.
> 
> Masks or no masks aside, the US has a lot of reasons for why our rates are highest:
> ~much more open borders than other countries that were smart enough to lock down sooner
> ~lack of good tests available to catch infections sooner
> ~failure to actively trace and isolate those who have had contact with infected persons
> ~false inflation of numbers even when no tests confirmed that COVID was the cause of death. Why? because the hospitals are paid more for COVID deaths. I know this from my friend who works in finances at a local hospital.


The majority of your statements are spot on.

However, there is currently ZERO evidence than hospitals are gaming the system and claiming deaths as COVID-19 that aren't.  I've worked in hospital IT for more than 30 years.  If you're caught submitting fraudulent claims to Medicare/Medicaid, the penalties are severe.  Also, it's not just Medicare/Medicaid patients with COVID-19.  It spans all health insurance carriers and you can bet they are auditing every claim filed and if all of the activities associated with the claim do not match the final diagnosis, the claim is rejected.  Coders are required to utilize the full patient record, inclusive of lab tests, treatment documents, medications and supplies to determine what diagnosis codes are applicable.

I wear a mask and gloves every time I leave the house.  I got yelled at in a Walmart by someone who wasn't, just standing on line waiting to check out.  It shocked me.  The woman told me I had been lied to and that "You democrats are destroying all of our rights just because you don't like Trump!"  I kept my temper in check and replied.   1. I'm not a democrat. 2. I'm high risk.  3. Thank you, I will continue to "suit up" until there is a proper treatment or a vaccine.

The final comment I'll make is this.  Too many people ignore basic distancing and safety measures.  When I do have to go to the grocer, I find myself dodging people who get too close.  When we practice safety measures, we not only protect ourselves, we protect those we encounter.


----------



## MGM

Speaking of border closures, I just hope our Prime Minister has the will to keep our southern border closed for as long as possible. He certainly has the mandate.
I think Americans don't really understand how the rest of the world sees them.


----------



## AliOop

Karen May said:


> The majority of your statements are spot on.
> 
> However, there is currently ZERO evidence than hospitals are gaming the system and claiming deaths as COVID-19 that aren't.  I've worked in hospital IT for more than 30 years.  If you're caught submitting fraudulent claims to Medicare/Medicaid, the penalties are severe.  Also, it's not just Medicare/Medicaid patients with COVID-19.  It spans all health insurance carriers and you can bet they are auditing every claim filed and if all of the activities associated with the claim do not match the final diagnosis, the claim is rejected.  Coders are required to utilize the full patient record, inclusive of lab tests, treatment documents, medications and supplies to determine what diagnosis codes are applicable.
> 
> I wear a mask and gloves every time I leave the house.  I got yelled at in a Walmart by someone who wasn't, just standing on line waiting to check out.  It shocked me.  The woman told me I had been lied to and that "You democrats are destroying all of our rights just because you don't like Trump!"  I kept my temper in check and replied.   1. I'm not a democrat. 2. I'm high risk.  3. Thank you, I will continue to "suit up" until there is a proper treatment or a vaccine.
> 
> The final comment I'll make is this.  Too many people ignore basic distancing and safety measures.  When I do have to go to the grocer, I find myself dodging people who get too close.  When we practice safety measures, we not only protect ourselves, we protect those we encounter.


Karen, I’m so sorry that happened to you. It is the perfect example of people jumping to conclusions based on appearances. 

People on both sides of the debate do that, and it is so sad. Instead of assuming others are stupid or don’t care about others for _____ (wearing a mask, not wearing a mask) why not assume that they (rightly or wrongly) sincerely believe differently than we do about the problem, as well as the solution?

I live in a very low-numbers area where most people aren’t and haven’t been wearing masks. Still, our numbers didn’t jump till they re-opened the bars and other locales where people were packed in together. 

What I found so sad was to see people mocking those who did wear masks, or excoriating those who didn’t. The lack of basic human decency is disheartening.

As for the allegedly inflated numbers, my friend who works in claims said they are being strongly encouraged by govt health officials and insurance companies to report cases and deaths as COVID-related even without testing to confirm it. I don’t work in that system so I can’t personally say, but I can say that my friend is a person of integrity who would not make up something like that.



MGM said:


> Speaking of border closures, I just hope our Prime Minister has the will to keep our southern border closed for as long as possible. He certainly has the mandate.
> I think Americans don't really understand how the rest of the world sees them.


Oh, we understand, at least some of us. And some of that is well-deserved. 

But please don’t forget we aren’t all the same, either. Just take a look at our news, and you can see that there is no one set of opinions or beliefs that can categorize US citizens, any more than the citizens of most other countries.

We don’t do each other favors when we decide that everyone from X country (religion, color, gender) is like _____ (fill in your media-shaped point of view about whatever).

Despite our country’s faults, so many Americans also have deeply wonderful qualities. Many have the most generous hands when it comes to those in other countries who are in need.

And for some reason, people from all over the world who love to bash us still want to emigrate here if given a chance.


----------



## Catscankim

I dont even watch the news anymore. They are so full of crap most of the time. They twist things for a good story.

I work in a trauma hospital...i LIVE the news in our area. But then they talk about a story, i sit there like noooooo thats not what happened. I was THERE lol.

One story was about a guy who go bit by a gator (Reality here lol). Local news glorified it that he was in critical condition and currently in surgery to save a limb. Where did THAT come from? He was sedated to clean out the FLESH WOUND and discharged a few hour later lol.

I really hate the media. Someone once told me....if you really want to know whats happening in America, watch the UK news lol.


----------



## rdc1978

MarnieSoapien said:


> The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time.
> 
> We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in.
> 
> Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.



My  elderly aunt is kind of in the same position, it's just her and my cousin.  

She and my cousin take a weekly drive to an open location, like the area surrounding a beach or just wherever and they get an ice cream cone.  

She also visits with extended family, but they stay outside and six feet apart from each other.  Ive heard that the virus does not spread as well outside and they make sure to keep a distance.  

I think for my aunt, it's about calculated risks.  Not sure if any of that works for your mom.  I think my aunt's and your mom's generation were used to going out to socialize and it has been hard.  

Do you think she would like zoom calls?  I heard a story a while back that some of the senior center were doing classes on zoom and it's a little more duplicative of the in person experience.  

At work we had a virtual happy hour on zoom, I didn't much care for it because there were too many people.  But two of my friends and I had a zoom call and I thought that was much better.  

My friend took me out for my birthday, and by that, I mean that we each sat in our car like a couple of hobos and ate our food and chatted with each other.  I'm not a person who needs a lot of in person contact but this made me feel really good. 

Also, if your mom likes books, maybe she can try podcasts?



AliOop said:


> *The issue of mask-wearing is complex*. I do my best to wear one when in crowds, but I do seriously consider the viewpoints of those who don't. That way, instead of being angry at those people, I can acknowledge that they have some valid perspectives, even if their decisions differ from mine.
> 
> *Here are some of the perspectives I've heard from those who choose not to wear masks:*
> 
> ~ When COVID first appeared, we were told repeatedly that masks don't help. There are still no strong scientific studies confirming that masks do help. What does help? Social distancing, frequent hand-washing, and isolation of those who have been or may have been infected. The CDC website even says that "the cloth face cover is not a substitute for social distancing."
> 
> ~ During the SARS outbreak years ago, we all saw pictures of mask-wearing people in affected countries. These articles contained prominent statements advising everyone that masks don't prevent the spread of disease at all; they just make people relax and feel better about going out.
> 
> ~ Many people have issues with asthma or a mental health issue, and cannot wear masks, period. You cannot tell whether someone has a breathing problem or mental health issue by how fit or "normal" they appear to be. (Note: I personally have asthma and have to remove my mask immediately if I sense that my levels are dropping).
> 
> ~ People who do wear face coverings are constantly touching them. By doing this, they are picking up all the germs they've breathed out into the mask. Then they are touching everything in the store or other public place, and then touching their faces again to adjust the mask. Thus, it is quite possible that more germs are being transmitted by mask wearing, than by going without masks.
> 
> ~ Social isolation has a proven negative effect on one's immune system and overall health, and masks exacerbate the isolation.
> 
> *Again, I am not saying that I agree with all of these points. *However, if we seek to understand why someone may think or behave differently than we do, it helps us not be angry, upset, or anxious towards them - all of which emotions are also bad for our immune systems.



1. So, I don't remember the message ever being that masks didn't help.  I remember the message being that healthcare workers needed them more and there wasn't enough of a supply.  I can see how that would be awfully nuanced and could sound like "don't wear a mask, it doesn't help"

2. I think that we are learning more and more now about how the virus transmits and how masks can be used.  Since we haven't really had a pandemic of this magnitude in a while I don't think we had previously done as much research as we are doing now and in as many settings.

We've been dealing with the virus for less than a year and the knowledge base is increasing everyday.

3. It appears that covid may spread more easily than SARS.

In covid cases the viral load is highest in the nose and mouth fairly early, so that may be when a person is asymptomatic or barely sick and therefore they can spread it without knowing.  Versus SARS, where the viral load peaks later, when the person is already clearly sick.  There don't appear to be cases of asymptomatic SARS spread.  So if the viral load with SARS peaks when the carrier is really sick and likely out of commission, mask wearing may not have helped since those carriers would likely be out of the public anyways.









						Coronavirus vs. SARS
					

COVID-19 and SARS are both caused by coronaviruses. There are many similarities between these viruses. However, there are also key differences.




					www.healthline.com
				




4. Since ashtma is an underlying condition that could make covid so much worse, I really think those with asthma should really try to wear a mask or stay home.

I have an underlying condition and I'm super scared of getting coronavirus.  At least for me, I can drive every other week and use Wal-Mart's curbside grocery pick up, which is contactless. I can order a lot of things online.  I can deal with wearing a mask, but if I had a condition that fully barred me from breathing with a mask, it's probably one that would make the pulmonary effects of COVID 10x worse for me so I'd try to just stay away from people and inside.

5. Speaking of new research, apparently the virus can spread from surface to human, but it's unlikely.  To me, this would mean that it's still better to wear a mask since surface to human spread seems unlikely even under the worst of circumstances.  





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Catscankim

rdc1978 said:


> 1. So, I don't remember the message ever being that masks didn't help.  I remember the message being that healthcare workers needed them more and there wasn't enough of a supply.  I can see how that would be awfully nuanced and could sound like "don't wear a mask, it doesn't help"
> 
> 2. I think that we are learning more and more now about how the virus transmits and how masks can be used.  Since we haven't really had a pandemic of this magnitude in a while I don't think we had previously done as much research as we are doing now and in as many settings.
> 
> We've been dealing with the virus for less than a year and the knowledge base is increasing everyday.
> 
> 3. It appears that covid may spread more easily than SARS.
> 
> In covid cases the viral load is highest in the nose and mouth fairly early, so that may be when a person is asymptomatic or barely sick and therefore they can spread it without knowing.  Versus SARS, where the viral load peaks later, when the person is already clearly sick.  There don't appear to be cases of asymptomatic SARS spread.  So if the viral load with SARS peaks when the carrier is really sick and likely out of commission, mask wearing may not have helped since those carriers would likely be out of the public anyways.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus vs. SARS
> 
> 
> COVID-19 and SARS are both caused by coronaviruses. There are many similarities between these viruses. However, there are also key differences.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Since ashtma is an underlying condition that could make covid so much worse, I really think those with asthma should really try to wear a mask or stay home.
> 
> I have an underlying condition and I'm super scared of getting coronavirus.  At least for me, I can drive every other week and use Wal-Mart's curbside grocery pick up, which is contactless. I can order a lot of things online.  I can deal with wearing a mask, but if I had a condition that fully barred me from breathing with a mask, it's probably one that would make the pulmonary effects of COVID 10x worse for me so I'd try to just stay away from people and inside.


Your fears are 100% valid. But all viruses have an incubation time. Average time for infection is about 7-14 days. This is proven. It has always been. If your coworker is sick, chances are you might be sick next week...because they were already infected with ummm....common cold or flu last week before symptoms. covid is no different.

Symptoms...I said infection "Average time for infection is about 7-14 days". I meant symptoms.


----------



## rdc1978

Catscankim said:


> Your fears are 100% valid. But all viruses have an incubation time. Average time for infection is about 7-14 days. This is proven. It has always been. If your coworker is sick, chances are you might be sick next week...because they were already infected with ummm....common cold or flu last week before symptoms. covid is no different.



I think that as far as the common cold or flu, I get my flu shot every year like a champ and a common cold is unlikely to put me in the hospital.  

I'd only say that comparing SARS to covid seems like comparing apples to oranges, because by the time the viral load has peaked with SARS, the carrier is already highly symptomatic.  It's not to say that they aren't carrying the virus during the incubation period, just not as much, and therefore it wouldn't be as easily transmitted as someone who has coronavirus who had the highest viral loads in the nose and throat (to spread) when they are barely symptomatic or asymptomatic.  

So while SARS could spread, it wouldn't have been as rampant or as easy as it would be for covid.


----------



## LilyJo

I have asthma. I cant wear a mask even if I  wanted to. Please don't assume that it's something we can all do if we tried - if I am forced to wear one first thing that will happen is I will vomit. Followed within a couple of minutes by a full blown asthma attack which is enough to need an ambulance.

Remember asthma attacks kill people every day.

I am not going out aside from shopping and checking on my parents but luckily I can work from home.

The politicisation, right vs left, of the virus is just maddening. It seems worse in the US and although there is criticism of the UK Govt it seems less partisan. What's the situation elsewhere in the world, are Govts working together on solutions?

Would love to hear from fellow forumites in Aus or NZ where the virus seems much more under control, what made the difference in your opinion?


----------



## Catscankim

I am not a microbiologist or dr. I can only talk about what I see. And SARS....I don't even look for their screens. I kinda dont care when the SARS ALERT screen pops up on the pt charts. and if they call me NOW, that they are bringing a TB pt down I'm like pfffttt bring it on lol.

We had a wine party at a nurses house because we figured....we are all exposed to the same germs together anyway.

I don't even know how to react to most of this covid stuff. They mandate the whole county needs to wear masks, but they don't provide citizens masks. they mandate that we need to wear goggles at the hospital (3 months now into it) but they don't provide goggles. Nurse manager stopped me because I only had on my glasses and needed to put on goggles. GIVE ME GOGGLES AND I WILL WEAR THEM. New employees get two sets of uniforms upon hire because the color of your uniform is mandated. But I can't get eye protection during a pandemic.

But the weird thing is....with all of this lack of protection, no new N95 masks, sub-par surgical masks, everything needing to be worn over and over....only 5 nurses in my whole large hospital have gotten covid since the start of this whole thing. And I am torn over what I know and what I see.

All at once we had an influx of a certain ethnic population. Im like....what, you all go to the same friken picnic???

And they talk about no touching your mask pulling it up and down. but if you only have one mask for 12 hours, its all you do ALL NIGHT.


----------



## KiwiMoose

LilyJo said:


> I have asthma. I cant wear a mask even if I  wanted to. Please don't assume that it's something we can all do if we tried - if I am forced to wear one first thing that will happen is I will vomit. Followed within a couple of minutes by a full blown asthma attack which is enough to need an ambulance.
> 
> Remember asthma attacks kill people every day.
> 
> I am not going out aside from shopping and checking on my parents but luckily I can work from home.
> 
> The politicisation, right vs left, of the virus is just maddening. It seems worse in the US and although there is criticism of the UK Govt it seems less partisan. What's the situation elsewhere in the world, are Govts working together on solutions?
> 
> Would love to hear from fellow forumites in Aus or NZ where the virus seems much more under control, what made the difference in your opinion?


We shut the borders early, and we went into full lockdown early for one month. We followed that with a further two weeks of partial lockdown - increasing our ‘bubble‘ by an additional one or two people only.  After that we had a nationwide contact tracing system launched for the next phase, whereby every location had a QR code to scan upon entry - to enable ease on contact tracing in case of an outbreak.
Our leader has been criticised by the opposition party (right wing) for screwing up the economy. But you know what - we’ve coped pretty well with it, however some people have lost their job or taken a reduction in pay. It is likely that the full impact on the economy is yet to eventuate.
I have heard right wing friends and family members acknowledge that our PM has handled the situation well so that’s a bonus for her as a lefty.


----------



## JoeyJ

MarnieSoapien said:


> The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time.
> 
> We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in.
> 
> Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.


Not sure if you have this in Denmark, but I have heard of a Red Cross initiative, where a volunteer phones up people who are living alone to check on them and chat. She may like to phone up some old or young church friends, write down some old stories from her childhood for future generations to enjoy, or organise a collection of "isolation" tips, stories, or recipes that church members submit and she could arrange for a book or ebook to be sent to all members.
Probably a bit contradictory,  but we found computer based activities, unless strictly time limited, tended to make us get depressed. Youtube is a good teacher of new crafts. We enjoyed doing macrame, and looking through old photos.
Hope its helpful❤



LilyJo said:


> I have asthma. I cant wear a mask even if I  wanted to. Please don't assume that it's something we can all do if we tried - if I am forced to wear one first thing that will happen is I will vomit. Followed within a couple of minutes by a full blown asthma attack which is enough to need an ambulance.
> 
> Remember asthma attacks kill people every day.
> 
> I am not going out aside from shopping and checking on my parents but luckily I can work from home.
> 
> The politicisation, right vs left, of the virus is just maddening. It seems worse in the US and although there is criticism of the UK Govt it seems less partisan. What's the situation elsewhere in the world, are Govts working together on solutions?
> 
> Would love to hear from fellow forumites in Aus or NZ where the virus seems much more under control, what made the difference in your opinion?


People who complied...and did exactly what the law stated, and especially, do not go out if you are at all sick, people will come to you and drop off food and medicine for you.
I dont know if its because at the start when there werent enough tests, everyone acted like they were carriers, or everyone else was infected...
Im sure the way stores are required to keep up intense cleaning programs has helped. 
Most surprisingly, tho, the general public wearing masks around home and in public (unless you are in the "high risk of dying if you contract it" category) has been widely discouraged, because they give a false sense of security.
Theres no cases here now, and hasnt been any new cases (which started actually on our soil) for weeks...but I still have paranoia when i find myself near a person, especially in a lift...poor person!


----------



## MGM

Catscankim said:


> They mandate the whole county needs to wear masks, but they don't provide citizens masks.



Well, to be fair, they mandate that citizens need to wear pants in public but they don't provide pants either....



> they mandate that we need to wear goggles at the hospital (3 months now into it) but they don't provide goggles. Nurse manager stopped me because I only had on my glasses and needed to put on goggles. GIVE ME GOGGLES AND I WILL WEAR THEM. New employees get two sets of uniforms upon hire because the color of your uniform is mandated. But I can't get eye protection during a pandemic.



This, however, is unconscionable. The way PPE stocks federally were not replenished; the way the current administration cut pandemic research; the way the federal administration not only doesn't coordinate with the states, but actively fights against them; the way the CDC has been gutted so that their "science" is now based on what the president wants....all of this has repurcussions, and front-line workers of all stripes suffer them.



> All at once we had an influx of a certain ethnic population. Im like....what, you all go to the same friken picnic???



More likely they all went to the same terrible job, whether it's being a PSW in a care home, working the floor in a meat packing plant, or being a prisoner.
Unless by ethnic population, you meant "white people" and then, where they went is to a bar or a family party because "don't tread on me."

The early outbreaks in Canada were in long-term care homes and it was absolutely shameful how it was handled; 84% of deaths in Canada were in these homes. This has led to public inquiries at various levels and discoveries of things like, oh, our former premier from 20 years back cut funding and regulations to care homes and dismantled the public system, giving breaks to private care homes. Now, we learn that same guy has $7 million invested in private homes, and in fact, the chain of homes he's associated with has the highest rate of covid deaths.

The current outbreaks in Canada *are* among one ethnic population....those darn Mexicans that the US president is always talking about. You know the ones....they cross our border (not by sneaking, mind you, but by flying over an entire country) and take our jobs. And by "our jobs", I mean agricultural worker jobs that Canadians don't want because they are too taxing. Because they don't pay well, workers aren't treated well (not subject to the labour laws that we Canadians insist on), and it's bloody hard work, 12 hours a day, in poor conditions. So these workers flew to Canada, did their 14-day quarantine as all people coming into this country are required to do, and then they got to work. But then, they started falling ill, were told to take Tylenol and keep working, keep sleeping in cramped bunks, keep eating together. Over 800 workers have so far tested positive in the past few weeks; 3 have died. So these essential workers who came here to ensure that I get fresh peppers and cucumbers and strawberries are being infected by Canadians. Because they aren't part of our single-payer system, their employers are responsible for their healthcare bills. Because they are literally trapped on the farms with no transportation, they rely on those same employers for trips to the hospital.

So yeah, there are more brown people infected in Canada than ever before....because they left their country healthy and ready to work hard, and we made them sick :-(


----------



## beckster51

LilyJo said:


> I have asthma. I cant wear a mask even if I  wanted to. Please don't assume that it's something we can all do if we tried - if I am forced to wear one first thing that will happen is I will vomit. Followed within a couple of minutes by a full blown asthma attack which is enough to need an ambulance.
> 
> Remember asthma attacks kill people every day.
> 
> I am not going out aside from shopping and checking on my parents but luckily I can work from home.
> 
> The politicisation, right vs left, of the virus is just maddening. It seems worse in the US and although there is criticism of the UK Govt it seems less partisan. What's the situation elsewhere in the world, are Govts working together on solutions?
> 
> Would love to hear from fellow forumites in Aus or NZ where the virus seems much more under control, what made the difference in your opinion?


I certainly have sympathy for an inability or perceived inability to wear a mask.  I know that's real for some people.  Wear a face shield!  You can make them from plastic report covers if you don't want to spend a lot of money on them.  I am an advanced practice nurse, I keep up with the evolving knowledge of the virus.  Let's don't dwell on what was said early on., and let's don't blame everyone else for an evolving situation.  Most of us accept new knowledge about soap making vs. myths about soap making, so why can't we move on with current information about Covid-19?  It's more important than soap science!  Let's don't spend a lot of time rationalizing why we don't want to wear a mask.  There are other options.  The fact of the matter is that if we don't start mitigating this virus, thousands of people will die that would not have died otherwise, including healthcare workers.  My husband is at extraordinarily high risk, so I am isolating as much as possible in order not to expose him.  When people do not wear a mask or face shield in public, it makes me a little nuts, I admit it.  But I have not said anything to anyone who does not wear one, and I feel ignoring the science is blatant disregard for the health and well-being of others.  We need to circle the wagons for the health of everyone.


----------



## jcandleattic

KiwiMoose said:


> The rest of world is watching the USA and the debates going on around masks, staying at home, and freedom of choice. It seems to us here in NZ, having put in the hard yards as a country to eradicate Covid-19, silly that people wouldn't do all that they can to minimise the spread of the disease.
> If you have surgery (in a non- covid world) would you be happy if the surgeon didn't wear a mask?  He/she does so to prevent YOU from getting any germs.
> If you don't want to go out with a mask where it is mandated to do so - then by all means, don't wear a mask - BUT don't go out.  Don't deliberately buck the system and try and force your 'rights' on others who are doing their best to stop the spread.  It seems a selfish approach to think that you are somehow special enough to not wear a mask, or to be able to go out and walk around freely in the middle of a lockdown.  When we had our lockdown those who had special requirements had a helpline to call for assistance, and we were urged to check on elderly neighbours or vulnerable people to collect groceries on their behalf, or to pick up prescriptions for them.  Not to get within 2 metres of them - but to help out where we could.
> I understand that it is difficult operating in a crisis under the country's current leadership - who, I'm sorry to say, that the rest of the world (yes I have a large number of friends in Australia, Europe and the United Kingdom too) thinks is an absolute idiot.
> If each of us do our very best to stop this virus spreading then surely the crisis will be over sooner rather than later. The USA has the worst spread, the most deaths, the most people infected in the world.  Doesn't that say anything?
> Sorry - I'm not usually one to write controversial posts but I find it really frustrating standing by and watching this debate.  I will duck for cover now and accept that I may well be verbally assaulted.


Well said, and even as an American, I completely agree with you.


----------



## AliOop

beckster51 said:


> I feel ignoring the science is blatant disregard for the health and well-being of others.  We need to circle the wagons for the health of everyone.


I agree with all that you said about not looking back, and about being willing to change our minds when new information comes along. KUDOS FOR YOUR GREAT ATTITUDE!

And yes, there are people who don't give a flying fig about others. There was even a rash of pranksters who coughed on people purposely to frighten them (sad, but true - happened to a dear friend of mine in my hometown).

Still, we will all reduce our stress level greatly if we stop assuming the worst about others. Why not trust that *most* people who disagree on the mask issue are *not* "blatantly disregarding the health and wellbeing of others"? Rather, *they believe a different set of facts that also claim to be scientifically based. *

Face it, we get a lot of conflicting information, and it is tough to know who to believe. It doesn't help when major news outlets are caught in blatant lies as they try to hype things, like showing hospitals overflowing with patients, and test lines going around the block - pictures that are then revealed as coming from other countries, not the US. Then the other side of the news outlets pounce and say that the numbers are *all* faked. If only our news outlets (ALL of them) would fact-check and focus on finding the truth, instead of trying to score political points against each other!

Then there are the elected officials on and news anchors screaming, "STAY IN AND WEAR MASKS OR WE WILL ARREST YOU!" - several of whom are then caught outside during strict quarantine - and not even wearing masks. One of those persons was out with his *entire family who had tested positive for COVID*.

Two of these hypocritical public figures berated those who confronted them. The other just made sure he was quickly photographed delivering meals to the poor while wearing masks and gloves.

The hypocrisy is maddening. The worst part is that antics like these cause otherwise reasonable people to genuinely believe that things aren't that bad, and that no precautions are needed.
After all, if the leaders themselves are behaving this way...


----------



## jcandleattic

AliOop said:


> Then there are the elected officials on and news anchors screaming, "STAY IN AND WEAR MASKS OR WE WILL ARREST YOU!" -


In certain areas of my state wearing a mask in public IS mandatory by executive order of the Governor, and although you won't get arrested for not wearing one, you can/will get a fine - first offense $1000 fine, and it goes up from there each time. (and yes, they have fined newscasters for being out reporting the news in those areas without masks on) 

I'm with the others who have said if you (you as in the collective "you" of the general public, not pointing any 1 person out here) don't want to wear a mask, then don't go where it's madated, or stay home. It's easy enough to avoid being in public when you don't have to be. And if you absolutely have to be out, wear a mask. If for health reasons you can't wear a mask, then you probably shouldn't be out in public anyway until this is all under control and contained. Have someone else do your errands and running around for you.


----------



## beckster51

AliOop said:


> I agree with all that you said about not looking back, and about being willing to change our minds when new information comes along. KUDOS FOR YOUR GREAT ATTITUDE!
> 
> And yes, there are people who don't give a flying fig about others. There was even a rash of pranksters who coughed on people purposely to frighten them (sad, but true - happened to a dear friend of mine in my hometown).
> 
> Still, we will all reduce our stress level greatly if we stop assuming the worst about others. Why not trust that *most* people who disagree on the mask issue are *not* "blatantly disregarding the health and wellbeing of others"? Rather, *they believe a different set of facts that also claim to be scientifically based. *
> 
> Face it, we get a lot of conflicting information, and it is tough to know who to believe. It doesn't help when major news outlets are caught in blatant lies as they try to hype things, like showing hospitals overflowing with patients, and test lines going around the block - pictures that are then revealed as coming from other countries, not the US. Then the other side of the news outlets pounce and say that the numbers are *all* faked. If only our news outlets (ALL of them) would fact-check and focus on finding the truth, instead of trying to score political points against each other!
> 
> Then there are the elected officials on and news anchors screaming, "STAY IN AND WEAR MASKS OR WE WILL ARREST YOU!" - several of whom are then caught outside during strict quarantine - and not even wearing masks. One of those persons was out with his *entire family who had tested positive for COVID*.
> 
> Two of these hypocritical public figures berated those who confronted them. The other just made sure he was quickly photographed delivering meals to the poor while wearing masks and gloves.
> 
> The hypocrisy is maddening. The worst part is that antics like these cause otherwise reasonable people to genuinely believe that things aren't that bad, and that no precautions are needed.
> After all, if the leaders themselves are behaving this way...


I am not assuming the worst of others.  I am assuming that they are ignorant of the facts.  People need to be careful who they listen to about what to do.  There are authorities on these matters, and they are not always on the channel or Facebook page you are on.  (Speaking about the "royal you" not you in particular.) The CDC is a reliable source of information, as are other physicians who consult with the networks.  People who are getting their guidance from pundits are making a potentially deadly error.  Also, whether you are a fan of this President or not, he is not an authority on these issues, so don't follow his guidance.  The science is very clear, so get the facts and follow them.  The facts are the facts, really, there is very little conflicting science about these issues, just evolving knowledge.


----------



## LilyJo

I had to take my son to the hospital for treatment today and no I didnt wear a mask. I bought some visors a few weeks back and I managed one of those for a short period whilst we waited but it was far from pleasant.

I completely take the "wear a mask" argument but not going out is not an option for me. I am a single parent, live in the middle of nowhere and cannot get a regular shopping order delivered. I have no one else to do my errands or collect my shopping. I go out for food shopping because I have to. I don't leave the house aside for walking the dogs for anything other than food and checking my parents. 

I have been so careful this whole time and I really resent being made to feel like the bad guy cos my health wont let me wear a mask. Meanwhile, the beaches are packed, there are protests every week and yet those of us who cant wear a mask are lumped in with those who wont.

These are tricky times for us all but can we not all be quite so judgemental,  none of us know a persons medical, mental health or other reasons for not wearing a mask. It may not be as black and white as you think.


----------



## Karen May

LilyJo said:


> I have asthma. I cant wear a mask even if I  wanted to. Please don't assume that it's something we can all do if we tried - if I am forced to wear one first thing that will happen is I will vomit. Followed within a couple of minutes by a full blown asthma attack which is enough to need an ambulance.
> 
> Remember asthma attacks kill people every day.
> 
> I am not going out aside from shopping and checking on my parents but luckily I can work from home.
> 
> The politicisation, right vs left, of the virus is just maddening. It seems worse in the US and although there is criticism of the UK Govt it seems less partisan. What's the situation elsewhere in the world, are Govts working together on solutions?
> 
> Would love to hear from fellow forumites in Aus or NZ where the virus seems much more under control, what made the difference in your opinion?


I have a cousin with severe asthma who has the same issue, so I can understand your situation.  As a stop gap, my cousin started wearing a face shield.  Not exactly foolproof, but gives her a little peace of mind.

The politics of this is maddening, particularly here in the States.  It's become a real problem that has lead to temper tantrums on both sides of the spectrum.  It shouldn't be this way, but alas.



AliOop said:


> Karen, I’m so sorry that happened to you. It is the perfect example of people jumping to conclusions based on appearances.
> 
> People on both sides of the debate do that, and it is so sad. Instead of assuming others are stupid or don’t care about others for _____ (wearing a mask, not wearing a mask) why not assume that they (rightly or wrongly) sincerely believe differently than we do about the problem, as well as the solution?
> 
> I live in a very low-numbers area where most people aren’t and haven’t been wearing masks. Still, our numbers didn’t jump till they re-opened the bars and other locales where people were packed in together.
> 
> What I found so sad was to see people mocking those who did wear masks, or excoriating those who didn’t. The lack of basic human decency is disheartening.
> 
> As for the allegedly inflated numbers, my friend who works in claims said they are being strongly encouraged by govt health officials and insurance companies to report cases and deaths as COVID-related even without testing to confirm it. I don’t work in that system so I can’t personally say, but I can say that my friend is a person of integrity who would not make up something like that.
> 
> 
> Oh, we understand, at least some of us. And some of that is well-deserved.
> 
> But please don’t forget we aren’t all the same, either. Just take a look at our news, and you can see that there is no one set of opinions or beliefs that can categorize US citizens, any more than the citizens of most other countries.
> 
> We don’t do each other favors when we decide that everyone from X country (religion, color, gender) is like _____ (fill in your media-shaped point of view about whatever).
> 
> Despite our country’s faults, so many Americans also have deeply wonderful qualities. Many have the most generous hands when it comes to those in other countries who are in need.
> 
> And for some reason, people from all over the world who love to bash us still want to emigrate here if given a chance.


Thanks Ali.  I was in walmart, which is famous for having eccentric characters wandering the aisles.  I just do what I do and try to avoid confrontation if I can.  Where I work, I haven't seen any creative filing with a COVID diagnosis.  I'm sorry to hear it's happening elsewhere.


----------



## dippy

LilyJo I think from a UK perspective you do see less people wearing masks certainly in my area. I even regularly see people on buses not wearing masks and not to mention all the nonsense on the beaches.

I think if you keep social distance and go in enclosed spaces as little as possible then you are doing your bit.  

It's the idiots who come right up close and breathe in your face that annoy me - they think it won't happen to them.  I am sure people with asthma are far more careful than that.


----------



## AliOop

beckster51 said:


> I am not assuming the worst of others.  I am assuming that they are ignorant of the facts.  People need to be careful who they listen to about what to do.  There are authorities on these matters, and they are not always on the channel or Facebook page you are on.  (Speaking about the "royal you" not you in particular.) The CDC is a reliable source of information, as are other physicians who consult with the networks.  People who are getting their guidance from pundits are making a potentially deadly error.  Also, whether you are a fan of this President or not, he is not an authority on these issues, so don't follow his guidance.  The science is very clear, so get the facts and follow them.  The facts are the facts, really, there is very little conflicting science about these issues, just evolving knowledge.


If someone next to me sees Dr. X as credible, and I believe Dr. X is an absolute nincompoop, then the issue isn't necessarily that someone isn't being careful about their sources.

For instance, not everyone sees the CDC as a reliable source of information, esp after the big whistleblower drama about the autism-vaccine connection, and their prior announcements in years past that masks don't help. And not all scientists today agree about whether masks do more good than harm, outside of use by medical professionals during medical procedures that involve close contact, open surgical sites, etc.

I may disagree with them about those issues, but that doesn't mean that they aren't being careful. It just means they have a reason for not seeing the facts the way I see them.


----------



## bookreader451

MarnieSoapien said:


> The 3 months of self imposed isolation is really starting to wear my mother down. BCV (before covid-19) she had a strong social network, was volunteering and going to church every Sunday. Now she stays at home and has no one to interact with, except for my aunt (her sister) and uncle, who live next door. My mom spends most of her time on Facebook and I've been trying to come up with alternative ways for her to spend her time.
> 
> We video chat at least once a week and yesterday she broke down and started to cry because Facebook is her only social outlet. After a few questions I found out what kind of books she likes to read and have ordered a book for her and will keep ordering books for her monthly for the foreseeable future. The libraries are still closed in the town she lives in.
> 
> Any suggestions on ways to make isolation more bearable? I've suggested numerous hobbies but she's not interested in them.



We have had friends over, outside.  Maybe your mom could have a lady's tea outside, just a couple of persons at a time.  Chairs spread apart, with individual side tables, is how we have been distant together.


----------



## beckster51

I would ask which doctor you think is a nincompoop and on what you base that decision.  I haven't seen any true experts on the news with whom I would argue. I think it is arrogant of any of us to think we are smarter than people who have spent their lives studying an issue. 

 Masks are useless for some viruses.  For example, masks do not decrease transmission of the flu.  It depends on how that virus is transmitted.  So, I would respectfully disagree that you believe some true experts are nincompoops.  Facts are facts.  As they are with the vaccine controversy, which I will never touch with a 10 foot pole.  You can't really filter facts to make them be something you want them to be.  You can ignore them, but you cannot transmute them into something different. If people want to disregard the facts, then fine. Just admit to yourself that you are disregarding facts for some personal bias. Rationalizations are not facts.

 Anyone who thinks the CDC is an unreliable source of information is uninformed.  They are the best experts we've got, and I challenge anyone to actually go toe to toe with them on facts about communicable diseases.  I am very well educated in these areas, and I wouldn't dare try to put my knowledge above theirs.  

Sorry if you find this post distasteful, but I am just trying to educate people.  Knowledge is power to make the best decisions for yourself and others.  If people are not practicing best public health practices as we know them, they are not being careful with their health or the health of others.



AliOop said:


> If someone next to me sees Dr. X as credible, and I believe Dr. X is an absolute nincompoop, then the issue isn't necessarily that someone isn't being careful about their sources.
> 
> For instance, not everyone sees the CDC as a reliable source of information, esp after the big whistleblower drama about the autism-vaccine connection, and their prior announcements in years past that masks don't help. And not all scientists today agree about whether masks do more good than harm, outside of use by medical professionals during medical procedures that involve close contact, open surgical sites, etc.
> 
> I may disagree with them about those issues, but that doesn't mean that they aren't being careful. It just means they have a reason for not seeing the facts the way I see them.


----------



## Rsapienza

KiwiMoose said:


> The rest of world is watching the USA and the debates going on around masks, staying at home, and freedom of choice. It seems to us here in NZ, having put in the hard yards as a country to eradicate Covid-19, silly that people wouldn't do all that they can to minimise the spread of the disease.
> If you have surgery (in a non- covid world) would you be happy if the surgeon didn't wear a mask?  He/she does so to prevent YOU from getting any germs.
> If you don't want to go out with a mask where it is mandated to do so - then by all means, don't wear a mask - BUT don't go out.  Don't deliberately buck the system and try and force your 'rights' on others who are doing their best to stop the spread.  It seems a selfish approach to think that you are somehow special enough to not wear a mask, or to be able to go out and walk around freely in the middle of a lockdown.  When we had our lockdown those who had special requirements had a helpline to call for assistance, and we were urged to check on elderly neighbours or vulnerable people to collect groceries on their behalf, or to pick up prescriptions for them.  Not to get within 2 metres of them - but to help out where we could.
> I understand that it is difficult operating in a crisis under the country's current leadership - who, I'm sorry to say, that the rest of the world (yes I have a large number of friends in Australia, Europe and the United Kingdom too) thinks is an absolute idiot.
> If each of us do our very best to stop this virus spreading then surely the crisis will be over sooner rather than later. The USA has the worst spread, the most deaths, the most people infected in the world.  Doesn't that say anything?
> Sorry - I'm not usually one to write controversial posts but I find it really frustrating standing by and watching this debate.  I will duck for cover now and accept that I may well be verbally assaulted.


I agree. I'm in the US, Florida specifically.  They just semi mandated masks in some counties. The state governor hasn't done it state wide. I was thinking of you not too long ago. The news was talking about countries with the lowest rates and yours was one of them. There were 3 countries mentioned. They all had something else in common...a female leader! hmmmmm.... LOL


----------



## bookreader451

I said it before and will say it again.  I can't believe that wearing a mask to protect yourself, and loved ones, has become a hot button political issue.  What a sorry state of affairs during a world wide pandemic.  

We need to be in this together not arguing about who has credibility and who doesn't.


----------



## MGM

bookreader451 said:


> I said it before and will say it again.  I can't believe that wearing a mask to protect yourself, and loved ones, has become a hot button political issue.  What a sorry state of affairs during a world wide pandemic.
> 
> We need to be in this together not arguing about who has credibility and who doesn't.


It does seem absurd, doesn't it? And yet, the masses didn't come up with this issue as being divisive on their own: the behaviour is modelled from the very top. Like so many things that Americans now say "This shouldn't be a partisan issue" and yet it somehow, in the past 4 years, now is.....


----------



## bookreader451

MGM said:


> It does seem absurd, doesn't it? And yet, the masses didn't come up with this issue as being divisive on their own: the behaviour is modelled from the very top. Like so many things that Americans now say "This shouldn't be a partisan issue" and yet it somehow, in the past 4 years, now is.....


I know, if my great-great grandparents were from Canada and I can prove my family was there in the 1700's can I come?


----------



## melinda48

MarnieSoapien said:


> I worked as a medical records coordinator in the US before moving to Denmark 5 years ago. I've seen a few death certificates and from what I remember, there are 4 lines under cause of death. So, the covid cases might seem skewed if a person has a heart attack and dies but was also positive for covid. That could be listed on the death certificate as a cause of death even if it wasn't a direct cause (does that make sense?).
> As far as hospitals getting more money for covid cases, I think this has a lot to do with the amount of time and care a covid patient needs vs a non-covid patient. I can only hope doctors and hospitals are being honest and not trying to inflate numbers.


Actually, hospitals in New York City and elsewhere have already come forward and said they listed fatalities that may or may not have been caused by Covid as Covid-19 deaths so your assumption that everyone follows the rules is, unfortunately, not valid.

On another note - what does any of this have to do with soapmaking?


----------



## AliOop

beckster51 said:


> I would ask which doctor you think is a nincompoop and on what you base that decision.  I haven't seen any true experts on the news with whom I would argue. I think it is arrogant of any of us to think we are smarter than people who have spent their lives studying an issue.
> 
> Masks are useless for some viruses.  For example, masks do not decrease transmission of the flu.  It depends on how that virus is transmitted.  So, I would respectfully disagree that you believe some true experts are nincompoops.  Facts are facts.  As they are with the vaccine controversy, which I will never touch with a 10 foot pole.  You can't really filter facts to make them be something you want them to be.  You can ignore them, but you cannot transmute them into something different. If people want to disregard the facts, then fine. Just admit to yourself that you are disregarding facts for some personal bias. Rationalizations are not facts.
> 
> Anyone who thinks the CDC is an unreliable source of information is uninformed.  They are the best experts we've got, and I challenge anyone to actually go toe to toe with them on facts about communicable diseases.  I am very well educated in these areas, and I wouldn't dare try to put my knowledge above theirs.
> 
> Sorry if you find this post distasteful, but I am just trying to educate people.  Knowledge is power to make the best decisions for yourself and others.  If people are not practicing best public health practices as we know them, they are not being careful with their health or the health of others.



Please let me clarify... I don't find your post distasteful. I actually agree with most of it, and I really appreciate your cordial way of making your points.

My point was that there are very intelligent, careful, compassionate people who do not believe that the CDC is telling the truth, because they sincerely believe that agency has been caught lying in the past. The unfortunate history of hiring prior Big-Pharma CEOs doesn't help them dispel the appearance of impropriety, either. So these people aren't questioning the intelligence of CDC scientists, but rather, the organization's integrity and motives. 

It is very similar to the intelligent, careful, compassionate people who despise our current president. Because of his abhorrent history and admittedly harsh ways of communicating, they simply do not trust anything he says - even if it is factually true. With their view of him filtered through that lens, whatever he says, they believe the opposite. 

Similarly intelligent, compassionate people feel that exact same way about our previous president, and the one before him, and those before him. 

I have younger siblings who are black, and their experience of life as black people is very different than mine as a white person. Should I say they are unintelligent because they would never call the police for help, when I would absolutely do so under the same circumstances?

My point? What seems obvious and so clearly true to us, is always filtered through our individual experiences and biases. It's why personal integrity is so important. 

Is our CDC telling the truth this time? I sincerely hope so, because we don't have many other options for good information.


----------



## melinda48

bookreader451 said:


> I know, if my great-great grandparents were from Canada and I can prove my family was there in the 1700's can I come?


Yes, for the last four years the far left has vilified not only our President but any who disagree with them.  I hope you can verify your ancestry so you are free to live where you so desire. I could choose to be an Italian citizen but would not trade where I live. My best friend was a member of Solidarity and is now an American citizen. She is the epitome of the American success Story. I will not even bother going in to details about how sad she is at the changes to our society - she is a staunch conservative because she values liberty, freedom, and individual expression more than most anyone I have ever known.


----------



## bookreader451

melinda48 said:


> Actually, hospitals in New York City and elsewhere have already come forward and said they listed fatalities that may or may not have been caused by Covid as Covid-19 deaths so your assumption that everyone follows the rules is, unfortunately, not valid.
> 
> On another note - what does any of this have to do with soapmaking?


It has to do with community and mutual support during a time of crisis.  It has to do with a place to go during isolation.  A place to laugh about toilet paper, a place to console those who have lost someone.  No,  it has nothing to do with soap and everything to do with who we are as empathetic human beings.


----------



## melinda48

KiwiMoose said:


> T
> 
> That didn't work so well for Sweden though.


Actually, they are no worse off than any other country and they did not crash their economy.


----------



## AliOop

LilyJo said:


> These are tricky times for us all but can we not all be quite so judgmental,  none of us know a persons medical, mental health or other reasons for not wearing a mask. It may not be as black and white as you think.


‼



MGM said:


> It does seem absurd, doesn't it? And yet, the masses didn't come up with this issue as being divisive on their own: the behaviour is modelled from the very top. Like so many things that Americans now say "This shouldn't be a partisan issue" and yet it somehow, in the past 4 years, now is.....


Oh, it goes way further back than the last four years. The divide was happening at least twenty years ago. It deepened considerably when President Obama was elected. Many people saw him as extremely divisive, while others saw him as bringing people together. We became divided about whether he was divisive! 

ETA: My perspective comes from 25 years of working on legislation at California's capitol. There used to be some cooperation across the aisle if an idea was positive. That ended about 10 years ago. Now any idea that doesn't come from the majority is shut down, simply because it came from someone of another party. Some of my dear Republican friends who work as staffers are cussed at, shoved in the hallways, and literally spat upon by some of the more radical Dems. Many of the Republican staffers have quit because their cars have been vandalized, and they are fearful for their personal safety. The less radical ones stand by and do nothing because they are afraid of being turned upon. I personally am pretty moderate and hate political labels, but it's hard to see anyone in power bullying others this way.


----------



## rdc1978

melinda48 said:


> Yes, for the last four years the far left has vilified not only our President but any who disagree with them.  I hope you can verify your ancestry so you are free to live where you so desire. I could choose to be an Italian citizen but would not trade where I live. My best friend was a member of Solidarity and is now an American citizen. She is the epitome of the American success Story. I will not even bother going in to details about how sad she is at the changes to our society - she is a staunch conservative because she values liberty, freedom, and individual expression more than most anyone I have ever known.



The implication that people from the other side of the aisle do not value liberty, freedom and individual expression just as much as a conservative is odd to me.  

Many staunch conservatives do not support particular freedoms or individual expressions.  If you'd like me to delve further, I can.  I don't want to vilify someone who's political views I don't agree with, but we can talk about it if you're open to it.



AliOop said:


> Oh, it goes way further back than the last four years. The divide was happening at least twenty years ago. It deepened considerably when President Obama was elected. Many people saw him as extremely divisive, while others saw him as bringing people together. We became divided about whether he was divisive!
> 
> ETA: My perspective comes from 25 years of working on legislation at California's capitol. There used to be some cooperation across the aisle if an idea was positive. That ended about 10 years ago. Now any idea that doesn't come from the majority is shut down, simply because it came from someone of another party. Some of my dear Republican friends who work as staffers are cussed at, shoved in the hallways, and literally spat upon by some of the more radical Dems. Many of the Republican staffers have quit because their cars have been vandalized, and they are fearful for their personal safety. The less radical ones stand by and do nothing because they are afraid of being turned upon. I personally am pretty moderate and hate political labels, but it's hard to see anyone in power bullying others this way.



Obama never went out of his way to create a divide.  People who found him divisive had their own reasons and there was nothing he could do about that.  

Many democrats were disappointed by his moderate stance and many republicans benefitted from the ACA, one of his biggest political wins. 

To try to say that our current POTUS is as divisive as our last seems to ignore that one of them never tried to be anything but. 

Whether people love the current POTUS or hate him, we can probably all agree in unity that he is nothing like our last POTUS.


----------



## KiwiMoose

jcandleattic said:


> In certain areas of my state wearing a mask in public IS mandatory by executive order of the Governor, and although you won't get arrested for not wearing one, you can/will get a fine - first offense $1000 fine, and it goes up from there each time. (and yes, they have fined newscasters for being out reporting the news in those areas without masks on)
> 
> I'm with the others who have said if you (you as in the collective "you" of the general public, not pointing any 1 person out here) don't want to wear a mask, then don't go where it's madated, or stay home. It's easy enough to avoid being in public when you don't have to be. And if you absolutely have to be out, wear a mask. If for health reasons you can't wear a mask, then you probably shouldn't be out in public anyway until this is all under control and contained. Have someone else do your errands and running around for you.


This showed up today - quite interesting: Scientist Demonstrates The Effect Of Wearing A Mask Vs. Not Wearing One

In New Zealand it was never mandated to wear a mask - but we were told that if we went out in public (which was only for 'essential' items like groceries or healthcare) we were told to "act as if we have the virus".  In other words - do everything we can to avoid spreading it to others.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

melinda48 said:


> On another note - what does any of this have to do with soapmaking?





LilyJo said:


> As the person who started this thread, there was no mention of politics or conspiracy theories or statistics.
> 
> Just hows everyone doing, anyone affected. Since when was checking in with everyone such a contentious thought?
> 
> Anyone on here for any time knows we all talk about much more than soaping, particularly in a general chat sub forum.


This was discussed on page 34. Soap making is a community and I personally want to know how people are holding up during these unprecedented times.


----------



## AliOop

KiwiMoose said:


> In New Zealand it was never mandated to wear a mask - but we were told that if we went out in public (which was only for 'essential' items like groceries or healthcare) we were told to "act as if we have the virus".  In other words - do everything we can to avoid spreading it to others.


I believe that was a very wise way to talk to people and get their buy-in to cooperate. The threats that have been issued from some of our public officials (whose family members were some of those caught flaunting the rules) just got people riled up and wanting to push back.

As the proverb goes, you catch more flies with honey...



rdc1978 said:


> Obama never went out of his way to create a divide.  People who found him divisive had their own reasons and there was nothing he could do about that.


Sorry, I have to disagree. Former President O was a much smoother politician who thankfully did know how to behave and speak in public... but he was extremely divisive. He wasn't any more willing to meet in the middle than our current president, who is also divisive but in a much more in-your-face way. 

I'm no fan of former President Clinton for many reasons, but at least he got the parties to work together on a variety of issues. It's a shame that neither party in this country can apparently find someone who knows how to bring people to the table to work things out.


----------



## rdc1978

AliOop said:


> I believe that was a very wise way to talk to people and get their buy-in to cooperate. The threats that have been issued from some of our public officials (whose family members were some of those caught flaunting the rules) just got people riled up and wanting to push back.
> 
> As the proverb goes, you catch more flies with honey...
> 
> If people are willing to risk their safety and the safety of others because they weren't asked nicely enough, then it seems like promulgation is probably the best solution.
> 
> Sorry, I have to disagree. Former President O was a much smoother politician who thankfully did know how to behave and speak in public... but he was extremely divisive. He wasn't any more willing to meet in the middle than our current president, who is also divisive but in a much more in-your-face way.
> 
> I'm no fan of former President Clinton for many reasons, but at least he got the parties to work together on a variety of issues. It's a shame that neither party in this country can apparently find someone who knows how to bring people to the table to work things out.



1. The transportation bill of 2015 was a bipartisan effort that was passed due to significant compromises by Obama.

2. The stimulus bill of 2009 was passed with substantial changes made by Senate republicans, and though democrats held a supermajority and could have forced the original bill through, Obama insisted that the altered bill pass because he wanted to foster a working relationship with republicans. 

3. The ACA took an extended period to get through Congress because Obama attempted to get republican buy-in.  

This versus Mitch McConnell, a party leader openly admitting that he pressured his party not to work with Obama no matter what the legislation as soon as the man took office. 

And some of these pieces of legislation, such as educational bills were inspired by republican plans, which was another effort by Obama to bridge the divide.

How is that Obama's fault?



AliOop said:


> I believe that was a very wise way to talk to people and get their buy-in to cooperate. The threats that have been issued from some of our public officials (whose family members were some of those caught flaunting the rules) just got people riled up and wanting to push back.
> 
> As the proverb goes, you catch more flies with honey...
> 
> 
> Sorry, I have to disagree. Former President O was a much smoother politician who thankfully did know how to behave and speak in public... but he was extremely divisive. He wasn't any more willing to meet in the middle than our current president, who is also divisive but in a much more in-your-face way.
> 
> I'm no fan of former President Clinton for many reasons, but at least he got the parties to work together on a variety of issues. It's a shame that neither party in this country can apparently find someone who knows how to bring people to the table to work things out.



If people won't do something designed to protect the safety of themselves and others unless they are asked nicely enough it seems better to promulgate the behavior.


----------



## melinda48

rdc1978 said:


> The implication that people from the other side of the aisle do not value liberty, freedom and individual expression just as much as a conservative is odd to me.
> 
> Many staunch conservatives do not support particular freedoms or individual expressions.  If you'd like me to delve further, I can.  I don't want to vilify someone who's political views I don't agree with, but we can talk about it if you're open to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Obama never went out of his way to create a divide.  People who found him divisive had their own reasons and there was nothing he could do about that.
> 
> Many democrats were disappointed by his moderate stance and many republicans benefitted from the ACA, one of his biggest political wins.
> 
> To try to say that our current POTUS is as divisive as our last seems to ignore that one of them never tried to be anything but.
> 
> Whether people love the current POTUS or hate him, we can probably all agree in unity that he is nothing like our last POTUS.


Every utterance was one to promote divisiveness. He constantly “lectured” the American people and tried his best to “change the very nature of America”. Sadly, although he could have done more for our African American brothers and sisters, he did nothing.  

Along came a man who is so very annoying but who has permanently funded HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities), implemented the First Step Program to assist convicted felons, created empowerment zones to offer incentives for businesses to move into underserved neighborhoods. I see a “pushy New Yorker” (I am a New Yorker myself) who gets things done. While I often cringe, I appreciate what he has accomplished.

So often I wish he would just shut up but then I look at all he has done to help small and large businesses, and can appreciate the results. I had high hopes when Obama was elected but ended up being greatly disappointed with his one-world order push. I want to live my life on my terms and appreciate that our current President understands that.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

I would like to take this opportunity to remind people that discussion of religion and politics are not SMF approved topics.


----------



## Jersey Girl

MGM said:


> It does seem absurd, doesn't it? And yet, the masses didn't come up with this issue as being divisive on their own: the behaviour is modelled from the very top. Like so many things that Americans now say "This shouldn't be a partisan issue" and yet it somehow, in the past 4 years, now is.....


I think it’s more of a common sense issue and an issue of people being confused by conflicting reports regarding the efficacy and Safety of wearing masks. Regardless of what leadership at the top says or does and regardless whether I am a supporter of that leadership, Ive chosen to wear a mask.  I’m a dental hygienist, although I haven’t worked in 15 years, but I know that masks do offer protection.  I mostly use an N95 or a surgical mask if I have to. I don’t think cloth masks or bandanas are effective personally but are better than nothing.  I don’t spend too much time in situations where I need to wear one as it gets hard to breath at times in the heat. I’m probably going to be wearing one in certain situations long after this virus has waned again regardless of what any leadership does or says.


----------



## DeeAnna

Thanks, @MarnieSoapien -- Please, let's get this thread steered back closer to the original discussion in which everyone can contribute. I've really appreciated hearing others' feelings, personal observations, and reputable information about the covid virus.


----------



## lsg

This is not a political forum.  Please leave out all opinions about and references to this and other administrations.


----------



## KiwiMoose

I'm sorry - I probably started this with my criticism of your president (albeit without mentioning his name) back in post 778. I did expect a backlash but did not expect it to take quite such a political turn. My apologies.
Let's get back to Covid...


----------



## DeeAnna

Annnnddd on that note -- 

This was shared on Facebook by my 30something niece who is finally at home recovering from covid-19. It is such a helpless feeling to have a family member in the ICU fighting to survive this disease -- it hammers home the reality that this disease is not a conspiracy, is not a joke, and is not a mere cold or the flu. I could go on, but I instead would rather you read this doctor's essay... 

"This week I was one of the COVID doctors in the hospital. Before I went on service, I had planned to share my experiences when I got home after my last shift. That didn't happen because I was mentally and emotionally exhausted after being at the hospital for 15+ hours.
I am going to try to break things down so that the general public can understand, because I want everyone, not just my fellow healthcare workers, to be as scared as I am.

"This is going to be long, but hopefully will be worth the read for someone.

"For references purposes, I am a Hospitalist, which is sort of like your primary care doctor when you're in the hospital. We manage your chronic medical conditions and most of your acute issues in the hospital and consult specialists when we need additional help with complex decision making or a specialized procedure to be performed. We are also the primary point of contact for your nurse on most issues.

"I live in Arizona, the current COVID-19 hot spot. Arizona never really closed. Any level of closure that we obtained was the result of petitions with thousands of signatures from physicians. Despite pretty much being able to do anything you wanted to do except get your hair/nails done or eat out at a restaurant (carry out stayed open), people protested the state being closed. The state reopened immediately when criteria were put out to guide how and when states should reopen. To be clear, Arizona did not meet a single criteria for reopening. In addition, masks were not mandated. Governor Ducey avoided mandating masks and made it the responsibility of city Mayors to make any mandates. Mandatory masks were just implemented a few days ago.

"As you have almost certainly seen in the news, the rapid reopening without mandated masks has been catastrophic. In a couple of weeks we have gone from a few hundred cases per day to around 3,500 cases per day. A few weeks ago, I was working at the COVID-free hospital designated to be the primary elective surgery campus within the network. The past few days, our recently reopened COVID Unit has been near or completely full. I shared the patient's on the unit with one other hospitalist.

"Before I went on service this week, I read anything and everything I could to prepare myself to be the COVID doc. I was up to date on all of the latest recommendations. I was a little nervous, but felt like I was armed with the information that would allow me to help my patients.
I quickly learned that there is no possible way to prepare for how to treat a COVID patient. There is no rhyme, reason, or pattern. There is no possible way to predict what will happen with your patient.

"In my sign out to the doc taking over for me today, I prefaced the individual patient sign outs with, "one slightly improving, one with less oxygen requirements but possible new liver failure developing, everyone else getting worse."

"I have never seen anything like this. None of us have. We have no idea what we are doing. We are sharing evidence from small studies that could help and utilizing treatments that we think and hope are helpful. Of course, we also thought hydroxychloroquine was helpful a couple of months ago. So, we're hopefully helping people, maybe hurting them, and trying our best. We are flipping people on their stomachs while wide awake on a machine pushing oxygen into their lungs to try and help; this is called the prone position, and it works, but you're stuck in that position for as long as we can keep you there. The longer the better. Anyone on supplemental oxygen is receiving dexamethasone based on the European study that came out last week. We were using Remdesivir, but a patient I admitted two days ago is the last one that will receive it from our current stockpile. Convalescent plasma from patients that had COVID, recovered, and donated plasma is being administered, but studies suggest that antibody concentration diminishes by up to 90% within 2-3 months, so who knows if that's even doing anything.

"I realized in the past two days that oxygen saturation numbers that you see on the machines are completely worthless in many COVID patients. So, the one thing we thought we knew, that COVID causes profound hypoxia, was true, but it's actually much worse than we thought. In order to figure out if you are hypoxic (low blood oxygen levels), a needle is stuck into an artery in your wrist as often as is needed. It hurts. A lot. I will have a needle stuck into your artery as often as I need to. I'm sorry, I know it hurts, but it's for your own good.

"In any other time, most of my patients would already be intubated on a ventilator. We are managing so many critically ill patients on regular hospital floors. If we sent everyone to the ICU that would normally be there based on their current status and put them all on ventilators, all resources would be depleted in a day.

"The patients I cared for the past few days were the most miserable, uncomfortable, terrified patients I have seen in the past four years.  I sat with them while they cried because they are scared that they will get worse and get intubated and die without ever seeing their loved ones again. I can't comfort them by saying they'll get better soon, because I don't know that they will. All I can tell them is that we're doing everything we can and I really hope they improve. I held a patients hand while she cried and screamed, "oh my god, I'm going to die, aren't I? I'm dying" when I told her we couldn't give her more oxygen without intubating her and putting her on life support. I then tried to comfort her children over the phone after I informed them they were not allowed to come in to the hospital to be with her. They asked if someone could be there to comfort her if she is going to die.

"Many of my patients were young. Many have no underlying conditions that predispose them to a bad outcome, yet are one bad blood oxygen reading away from needing to be intubated.

"COVID does not care who you are.

"I am scared and you should be, too.

"All of that is to send the following message:

"Please, please, stay home if you can. If you need to go out, WEAR A MASK! Do not touch your face. Wash your hands and sanitize often. I can't promise you won't end up in the hospital with COVID even if you do all of these things, but I promise it's the best shot you've got.
P.S. THANK YOU to all the amazing RNs, RTs, PCTs, Pharmacists, Pharmacy techs, lab techs, physical, occupational & speech therapists, social workers, case managers, environmental service workers, and everyone else that makes it possible to care for these patients in the best way we know how. You don't get enough credit. You all are the real MVPs.

______________________________________
"ADDENDUM: To be clear, COVID-19 is caused by a virus. This is a PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS. It is not, never has been, and never will be a political issue. Politics have played a huge role in getting us into this mess, and it's time to cut them out. COVID doesn't discriminate, and it definitely doesn't care who you're going to vote for. When you see/hear/read anything related to COVID-19, pay attention to who is posting the information. If it is not coming from a medical professional, question your source.

______________________________________
"ADDENDUM-2: I am so incredibly shocked at how widely this has been shared. Thank you all! Please continue to share! Since people are reading this, I would like to use this platform to ask you to PLEASE talk with your loved ones about your wishes. If you have an advance directive, please bring it with you if you are unfortunately in need of hospitalization. If you do not have an advance directive, it's time to get one. If we do not know what you would like to be done, we assume that the answer is everything. If your loved one or listed MPOA [Medical Power of Attorney] is unaware of your wishes, they will likely also err on the side of doing everything.  Help them to make those very difficult decisions by making your wishes known. Do not wait until you are in the hospital, because it may be too late. Please look up what it means to be "full code" vs "DNR/DNI [Do Not Resuscitate /Do Not Intubate]." Know what you would want done to you."

Author: Brandon Bikowski
Posted: 27 June 2020, 12:34 p.m.
Source: https://www.facebook.com/brandon.bikowski

Comments in brackets [ ] are mine --DeeAnna


----------



## rdc1978

MarnieSoapien said:


> I would like to take this opportunity to remind people that discussion of religion and politics are not SMF approved topics.



Thank you, I honestly didn't know and didn't mean to break the rules!


DeeAnna said:


> Annnnddd on that note --
> 
> This was shared on Facebook by my 30something niece who is finally at home recovering from covid-19. It is such a helpless feeling to have a family member in the ICU fighting to survive this disease -- it hammers home the reality that this disease is not a conspiracy, is not a joke, and is not a mere cold or the flu. I could go on, but I instead would rather you read this doctor's essay...
> 
> "This week I was one of the COVID doctors in the hospital. Before I went on service, I had planned to share my experiences when I got home after my last shift. That didn't happen because I was mentally and emotionally exhausted after being at the hospital for 15+ hours.
> I am going to try to break things down so that the general public can understand, because I want everyone, not just my fellow healthcare workers, to be as scared as I am.
> 
> "This is going to be long, but hopefully will be worth the read for someone.
> 
> "For references purposes, I am a Hospitalist, which is sort of like your primary care doctor when you're in the hospital. We manage your chronic medical conditions and most of your acute issues in the hospital and consult specialists when we need additional help with complex decision making or a specialized procedure to be performed. We are also the primary point of contact for your nurse on most issues.
> 
> "I live in Arizona, the current COVID-19 hot spot. Arizona never really closed. Any level of closure that we obtained was the result of petitions with thousands of signatures from physicians. Despite pretty much being able to do anything you wanted to do except get your hair/nails done or eat out at a restaurant (carry out stayed open), people protested the state being closed. The state reopened immediately when criteria were put out to guide how and when states should reopen. To be clear, Arizona did not meet a single criteria for reopening. In addition, masks were not mandated. Governor Ducey avoided mandating masks and made it the responsibility of city Mayors to make any mandates. Mandatory masks were just implemented a few days ago.
> 
> "As you have almost certainly seen in the news, the rapid reopening without mandated masks has been catastrophic. In a couple of weeks we have gone from a few hundred cases per day to around 3,500 cases per day. A few weeks ago, I was working at the COVID-free hospital designated to be the primary elective surgery campus within the network. The past few days, our recently reopened COVID Unit has been near or completely full. I shared the patient's on the unit with one other hospitalist.
> 
> "Before I went on service this week, I read anything and everything I could to prepare myself to be the COVID doc. I was up to date on all of the latest recommendations. I was a little nervous, but felt like I was armed with the information that would allow me to help my patients.
> I quickly learned that there is no possible way to prepare for how to treat a COVID patient. There is no rhyme, reason, or pattern. There is no possible way to predict what will happen with your patient.
> 
> "In my sign out to the doc taking over for me today, I prefaced the individual patient sign outs with, "one slightly improving, one with less oxygen requirements but possible new liver failure developing, everyone else getting worse."
> 
> "I have never seen anything like this. None of us have. We have no idea what we are doing. We are sharing evidence from small studies that could help and utilizing treatments that we think and hope are helpful. Of course, we also thought hydroxychloroquine was helpful a couple of months ago. So, we're hopefully helping people, maybe hurting them, and trying our best. We are flipping people on their stomachs while wide awake on a machine pushing oxygen into their lungs to try and help; this is called the prone position, and it works, but you're stuck in that position for as long as we can keep you there. The longer the better. Anyone on supplemental oxygen is receiving dexamethasone based on the European study that came out last week. We were using Remdesivir, but a patient I admitted two days ago is the last one that will receive it from our current stockpile. Convalescent plasma from patients that had COVID, recovered, and donated plasma is being administered, but studies suggest that antibody concentration diminishes by up to 90% within 2-3 months, so who knows if that's even doing anything.
> 
> "I realized in the past two days that oxygen saturation numbers that you see on the machines are completely worthless in many COVID patients. So, the one thing we thought we knew, that COVID causes profound hypoxia, was true, but it's actually much worse than we thought. In order to figure out if you are hypoxic (low blood oxygen levels), a needle is stuck into an artery in your wrist as often as is needed. It hurts. A lot. I will have a needle stuck into your artery as often as I need to. I'm sorry, I know it hurts, but it's for your own good.
> 
> "In any other time, most of my patients would already be intubated on a ventilator. We are managing so many critically ill patients on regular hospital floors. If we sent everyone to the ICU that would normally be there based on their current status and put them all on ventilators, all resources would be depleted in a day.
> 
> "The patients I cared for the past few days were the most miserable, uncomfortable, terrified patients I have seen in the past four years.  I sat with them while they cried because they are scared that they will get worse and get intubated and die without ever seeing their loved ones again. I can't comfort them by saying they'll get better soon, because I don't know that they will. All I can tell them is that we're doing everything we can and I really hope they improve. I held a patients hand while she cried and screamed, "oh my god, I'm going to die, aren't I? I'm dying" when I told her we couldn't give her more oxygen without intubating her and putting her on life support. I then tried to comfort her children over the phone after I informed them they were not allowed to come in to the hospital to be with her. They asked if someone could be there to comfort her if she is going to die.
> 
> "Many of my patients were young. Many have no underlying conditions that predispose them to a bad outcome, yet are one bad blood oxygen reading away from needing to be intubated.
> 
> "COVID does not care who you are.
> 
> "I am scared and you should be, too.
> 
> "All of that is to send the following message:
> 
> "Please, please, stay home if you can. If you need to go out, WEAR A MASK! Do not touch your face. Wash your hands and sanitize often. I can't promise you won't end up in the hospital with COVID even if you do all of these things, but I promise it's the best shot you've got.
> P.S. THANK YOU to all the amazing RNs, RTs, PCTs, Pharmacists, Pharmacy techs, lab techs, physical, occupational & speech therapists, social workers, case managers, environmental service workers, and everyone else that makes it possible to care for these patients in the best way we know how. You don't get enough credit. You all are the real MVPs.
> 
> ______________________________________
> "ADDENDUM: To be clear, COVID-19 is caused by a virus. This is a PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS. It is not, never has been, and never will be a political issue. Politics have played a huge role in getting us into this mess, and it's time to cut them out. COVID doesn't discriminate, and it definitely doesn't care who you're going to vote for. When you see/hear/read anything related to COVID-19, pay attention to who is posting the information. If it is not coming from a medical professional, question your source.
> 
> ______________________________________
> "ADDENDUM-2: I am so incredibly shocked at how widely this has been shared. Thank you all! Please continue to share! Since people are reading this, I would like to use this platform to ask you to PLEASE talk with your loved ones about your wishes. If you have an advance directive, please bring it with you if you are unfortunately in need of hospitalization. If you do not have an advance directive, it's time to get one. If we do not know what you would like to be done, we assume that the answer is everything. If your loved one or listed MPOA [Medical Power of Attorney] is unaware of your wishes, they will likely also err on the side of doing everything.  Help them to make those very difficult decisions by making your wishes known. Do not wait until you are in the hospital, because it may be too late. Please look up what it means to be "full code" vs "DNR/DNI [Do Not Resuscitate /Do Not Intubate]." Know what you would want done to you."
> 
> Author: Brandon Bikowski
> Posted: 27 June 2020, 12:34 p.m.
> Source: https://www.facebook.com/brandon.bikowski
> 
> Comments in brackets [ ] are mine --DeeAnna



I'm so glad to hear she is on the mend, some of the newer treatments sound very promising.  I wish her a speedy and full recovery!


----------



## penelopejane

I found out last weekend that while we were in shut down, here in Australia,  a month ago if you were pregnant and went to hospital to deliver the baby your husband could not be with you in the delivery room. I can’t imagine how stressful that would be for mothers - yes I know when I was born men didn’t hold their wive’s hand but these days expectations are different.
Let’s hope we keep it contained at low levels in Australia after we got through the Victorian breakout.


----------



## beckster51

DeeAnna said:


> Annnnddd on that note --
> 
> This was shared on Facebook by my 30something niece who is finally at home recovering from covid-19. It is such a helpless feeling to have a family member in the ICU fighting to survive this disease -- it hammers home the reality that this disease is not a conspiracy, is not a joke, and is not a mere cold or the flu. I could go on, but I instead would rather you read this doctor's essay...
> 
> "This week I was one of the COVID doctors in the hospital. Before I went on service, I had planned to share my experiences when I got home after my last shift. That didn't happen because I was mentally and emotionally exhausted after being at the hospital for 15+ hours.
> I am going to try to break things down so that the general public can understand, because I want everyone, not just my fellow healthcare workers, to be as scared as I am.
> 
> "This is going to be long, but hopefully will be worth the read for someone.
> 
> "For references purposes, I am a Hospitalist, which is sort of like your primary care doctor when you're in the hospital. We manage your chronic medical conditions and most of your acute issues in the hospital and consult specialists when we need additional help with complex decision making or a specialized procedure to be performed. We are also the primary point of contact for your nurse on most issues.
> 
> "I live in Arizona, the current COVID-19 hot spot. Arizona never really closed. Any level of closure that we obtained was the result of petitions with thousands of signatures from physicians. Despite pretty much being able to do anything you wanted to do except get your hair/nails done or eat out at a restaurant (carry out stayed open), people protested the state being closed. The state reopened immediately when criteria were put out to guide how and when states should reopen. To be clear, Arizona did not meet a single criteria for reopening. In addition, masks were not mandated. Governor Ducey avoided mandating masks and made it the responsibility of city Mayors to make any mandates. Mandatory masks were just implemented a few days ago.
> 
> "As you have almost certainly seen in the news, the rapid reopening without mandated masks has been catastrophic. In a couple of weeks we have gone from a few hundred cases per day to around 3,500 cases per day. A few weeks ago, I was working at the COVID-free hospital designated to be the primary elective surgery campus within the network. The past few days, our recently reopened COVID Unit has been near or completely full. I shared the patient's on the unit with one other hospitalist.
> 
> "Before I went on service this week, I read anything and everything I could to prepare myself to be the COVID doc. I was up to date on all of the latest recommendations. I was a little nervous, but felt like I was armed with the information that would allow me to help my patients.
> I quickly learned that there is no possible way to prepare for how to treat a COVID patient. There is no rhyme, reason, or pattern. There is no possible way to predict what will happen with your patient.
> 
> "In my sign out to the doc taking over for me today, I prefaced the individual patient sign outs with, "one slightly improving, one with less oxygen requirements but possible new liver failure developing, everyone else getting worse."
> 
> "I have never seen anything like this. None of us have. We have no idea what we are doing. We are sharing evidence from small studies that could help and utilizing treatments that we think and hope are helpful. Of course, we also thought hydroxychloroquine was helpful a couple of months ago. So, we're hopefully helping people, maybe hurting them, and trying our best. We are flipping people on their stomachs while wide awake on a machine pushing oxygen into their lungs to try and help; this is called the prone position, and it works, but you're stuck in that position for as long as we can keep you there. The longer the better. Anyone on supplemental oxygen is receiving dexamethasone based on the European study that came out last week. We were using Remdesivir, but a patient I admitted two days ago is the last one that will receive it from our current stockpile. Convalescent plasma from patients that had COVID, recovered, and donated plasma is being administered, but studies suggest that antibody concentration diminishes by up to 90% within 2-3 months, so who knows if that's even doing anything.
> 
> "I realized in the past two days that oxygen saturation numbers that you see on the machines are completely worthless in many COVID patients. So, the one thing we thought we knew, that COVID causes profound hypoxia, was true, but it's actually much worse than we thought. In order to figure out if you are hypoxic (low blood oxygen levels), a needle is stuck into an artery in your wrist as often as is needed. It hurts. A lot. I will have a needle stuck into your artery as often as I need to. I'm sorry, I know it hurts, but it's for your own good.
> 
> "In any other time, most of my patients would already be intubated on a ventilator. We are managing so many critically ill patients on regular hospital floors. If we sent everyone to the ICU that would normally be there based on their current status and put them all on ventilators, all resources would be depleted in a day.
> 
> "The patients I cared for the past few days were the most miserable, uncomfortable, terrified patients I have seen in the past four years.  I sat with them while they cried because they are scared that they will get worse and get intubated and die without ever seeing their loved ones again. I can't comfort them by saying they'll get better soon, because I don't know that they will. All I can tell them is that we're doing everything we can and I really hope they improve. I held a patients hand while she cried and screamed, "oh my god, I'm going to die, aren't I? I'm dying" when I told her we couldn't give her more oxygen without intubating her and putting her on life support. I then tried to comfort her children over the phone after I informed them they were not allowed to come in to the hospital to be with her. They asked if someone could be there to comfort her if she is going to die.
> 
> "Many of my patients were young. Many have no underlying conditions that predispose them to a bad outcome, yet are one bad blood oxygen reading away from needing to be intubated.
> 
> "COVID does not care who you are.
> 
> "I am scared and you should be, too.
> 
> "All of that is to send the following message:
> 
> "Please, please, stay home if you can. If you need to go out, WEAR A MASK! Do not touch your face. Wash your hands and sanitize often. I can't promise you won't end up in the hospital with COVID even if you do all of these things, but I promise it's the best shot you've got.
> P.S. THANK YOU to all the amazing RNs, RTs, PCTs, Pharmacists, Pharmacy techs, lab techs, physical, occupational & speech therapists, social workers, case managers, environmental service workers, and everyone else that makes it possible to care for these patients in the best way we know how. You don't get enough credit. You all are the real MVPs.
> 
> ______________________________________
> "ADDENDUM: To be clear, COVID-19 is caused by a virus. This is a PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS. It is not, never has been, and never will be a political issue. Politics have played a huge role in getting us into this mess, and it's time to cut them out. COVID doesn't discriminate, and it definitely doesn't care who you're going to vote for. When you see/hear/read anything related to COVID-19, pay attention to who is posting the information. If it is not coming from a medical professional, question your source.
> 
> ______________________________________
> "ADDENDUM-2: I am so incredibly shocked at how widely this has been shared. Thank you all! Please continue to share! Since people are reading this, I would like to use this platform to ask you to PLEASE talk with your loved ones about your wishes. If you have an advance directive, please bring it with you if you are unfortunately in need of hospitalization. If you do not have an advance directive, it's time to get one. If we do not know what you would like to be done, we assume that the answer is everything. If your loved one or listed MPOA [Medical Power of Attorney] is unaware of your wishes, they will likely also err on the side of doing everything.  Help them to make those very difficult decisions by making your wishes known. Do not wait until you are in the hospital, because it may be too late. Please look up what it means to be "full code" vs "DNR/DNI [Do Not Resuscitate /Do Not Intubate]." Know what you would want done to you."
> 
> Author: Brandon Bikowski
> Posted: 27 June 2020, 12:34 p.m.
> Source: https://www.facebook.com/brandon.bikowski
> 
> Comments in brackets [ ] are mine --DeeAnna


Oh, Deanna, thank you for sharing this.  It makes me cry, but I am so glad to hear from someone so articulate that is on the front lines.  If this doesn't move people to unite against this disease and do what we must, then nothing will.



beckster51 said:


> Oh, Deanna, thank you for sharing this.  It makes me cry, but I am so glad to hear from someone so articulate that is on the front lines.  If this doesn't move people to unite against this disease and do what we must, then nothing will.


Oh, and I should have said I was truly happy to hear that you had a family member that survived and was able to go home from this situation.  She's a lucky lady.  There is no experience that prepares you for having a loved one in the ICU that is fighting so hard to live.  I hope she continues to do well.


----------



## Susie

I am going to say two thing about wearing masks.  Or not wearing masks:

1.  The mask you wear is intended to stop someone else's virus containing spit from going into your nose or mouth where it will infect you.  The virus is not going to suddenly sprout arms and legs to crawl through the holes in the weave of the cloth.  Stop the spit, folks!

2.  The mask someone else wears is to stop your potentially virus containing spit from going into their nose and mouth.  

Face shields are better than nothing, but masks are better than shields.  You make your choices, and you take your chances.


----------



## AliOop

Susie said:


> I am going to say two thing about wearing masks.  Or not wearing masks:
> 
> 1.  The mask you wear is intended to stop someone else's virus containing spit from going into your nose or mouth where it will infect you.  The virus is not going to suddenly sprout arms and legs to crawl through the holes in the weave of the cloth.  Stop the spit, folks!
> 
> 2.  The mask someone else wears is to stop your potentially virus containing spit from going into their nose and mouth.
> 
> Face shields are better than nothing, but masks are better than shields.  You make your choices, and you take your chances.


I've heard just the opposite: that the mask is intended to keep my spit germs from being spread and infecting someone else.


----------



## LilyJo

Yes that's what we've had here, its not designed to stop the virus getting to you, its meant to stop YOU sharing your germs with others.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Taking a break from the mask debate... I'd just like to say they I'm loving the creative solutions people are coming up with.
Drive thru fancy dinner.  I would totally do that, if I could afford it and I was in Ottawa.


----------



## AliOop

Met with a friend tonight to see her amazing veggie garden. She told me that her grandson and his date went on a joint "prom" date with five other couples. Since there are no proms happening, they dressed up in fancy clothes and went to a very nice (expensive) restaurant in a limo, just as if they were on their way to the prom.

After eating their fill, when the kids asked for their tab, the waiter told them that another diner had asked the wait staff why the kids were all gussied up. Upon learning the reason, this anonymous diner secretly paid their ~$800 total bill. 

Sometimes catastrophes bring out amazing generosity in others, that is for sure!


----------



## MGM

AliOop said:


> I've heard just the opposite: that the mask is intended to keep my spit germs from being spread and infecting someone else.


Yup, Susie's got it backward: your cloth mask keeps _your_ germs in your own face. An N95 mask worn by a front-line worker who sees hundreds of germ-holes a day protects _them_. A face shield does both and is easier for people with breathing problems to wear. Remember, we're not talking about gas or smoke here: your face shield/mask doesn't need to filter out virus particles: it needs to keep _in _droplets_ of _saliva that contain the virus.
I think this is why the message is so hard to handle....I wear a seatbelt to protect myself. I don't smoke to protect myself. I wear a mask to protect YOU and I need you to wear one to protect me.


----------



## Susie

Very true, your face mask keeps your germs to yourself.

Also true, your face mask stops the droplets that non-masked people spew out while talking, sneezing, coughing from getting in your nose and mouth.  It also stops you from touching your nose and mouth after touching contaminated surfaces.

Here's a list.









						Sources - How Much Do Cloth Masks Prevent You From Getting the Coronavirus?
					

How Much Do Cloth Masks Prevent You From Getting the Coronavirus?  Sources:  Recommendation Regarding the Use of Cloth Face Coverings, Especially in Areas of Significant Community-Based Transmission https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html  Testing Show...




					docs.google.com
				




I am not trying to cause dissension.  I care about the people on this forum, and their families.  I want everyone to be well.  If you can't wear a mask, wear a face shield.  It is better than nothing until proved otherwise.  Just be sure to clean it properly after each use.


----------



## BattleGnome




----------



## Hope Ann

penelopejane said:


> I found out last weekend that while we were in shut down, here in Australia,  a month ago if you were pregnant and went to hospital to deliver the baby your husband could not be with you in the delivery room. I can’t imagine how stressful that would be for mothers - yes I know when I was born men didn’t hold their wive’s hand but these days expectations are different.


I had to go to cancer treatments alone through this.  

Hope


----------



## penelopejane

Hope Ann said:


> I had to go to cancer treatments alone through this.
> 
> Hope


You poor thing. It must have been a daunting process for you. I hope they went well for you. Fingers crossed for an excellent result.
I am so glad there was hospital space for you to undergo your treatments.


----------



## dibbles

Hope Ann said:


> I had to go to cancer treatments alone through this.
> 
> Hope


☹ I'm so sorry. It must have been incredibly hard for you. Take care of yourself - do whatever you need to do to heal.


----------



## beckster51

Hope Ann said:


> I had to go to cancer treatments alone through this.
> 
> Hope


Hope, I hope you are doing well.  Sorry that this situation has been so difficult for you personally.


----------



## DKing

MGM said:


> I wear a mask to protect YOU and I need you to wear one to protect me.



This is why I get a little frustrated about the whole mask thing.  So many people do not get this ^ point.  Wearing masks only works if everyone is willing to do it.  Unfortunately though, when you wear a mask you aren't protecting yourself as much as you are protecting others.  Wearing a mask is more a respect for the health and welfare of others, and people tend to be selfish (the comments sections on social media sites definitely make me believe this) and so they don't want to be bothered wearing a mask as they have heard that it doesn't protect them from respiratory droplets in the air....which would be minimized greatly if everyone wore a mask.  
I understand that there might be a small amount of people who can't wear a mask for legitimate medical reasons, but the vast majority of people do not genuinely fit into that category.  Those who have serious medical issues that prevent them from wearing a mask should be taking all precautions possible to not be in public situations unless absolutely necessary since their outcome from contracting the virus is pretty grave.  
I have some lung issues and do struggle with an n95 mask, but I can wear a basic surgical or homemade mask, which is really what we should be wearing in public places anyhow.  (save the n95 for medical professionals)  Is it my preference to wear a mask?  No, but I do it to be respectful of the health of others and hope they will reciprocate as I do not want this virus, nor would I want to pass it on to anyone else.   I hope that if enough people start wearing masks that it won't be such a "taboo".  Therefor, I choose to wear a mask in public, even though I am a definitely a minority in this habit.  I would rather error on the side of caution than take a chance on unintentionally spreading a virus to others who might not survive it.   I am fortunate to live in an area where we have not been hard hit by this virus and could probably get away with not wearing a mask and be totally safe....BUT, our situation could change at any time.  The US has shown me that.  I would rather be prepared and not fight a simple change in habit that could save myself, or the lives of others.  Wear a mask.  It isn't a big deal once you get used to it.  It is awkward and uncomfortable to start, but you adjust.  I am old enough to remember life before it was a law to wear seatbelts....everyone complained about it back when it was enforced too, but I certainly would not feel comfortable minus a seatbelt now.  People need to adjust to new situations as they come up.  We are supposed to be the most evolved species on earth, but some days I truly wonder.  (this might have been more appropriate for the gripe page?)


----------



## Catscankim

I just came from work. They reopened our tents, and also two more COVID units and an overflow floor

They should have never closed the tents. That allowed WHOLE families to just enter the hospital “ummmm, we tested positive”, when a few weeks ago they were directed to the tents for triage.

still, morons with no business being in the er are showing up...dental pain, earaches....stuff that most ppl call their doctor for. Clogging up the er. If i didnt have to be in that cesspool i wouldnt. Why you bringing your kid in for a fat lip, put freakin ice on it she will be fine. And babies shouldnt wear masks because of co2, but yet here they are for non emergent complaints. It infuriates me!

one girl showed up because cotton from a qtip was stuck in her ear. Our er doc went out to the waiting room with tweezers and just pulled it out. GO HOME, STAY HOME Lol


----------



## raymondlgraham

Dr. Fauci is supposed to be the expert.  He is regularly moving the goal post.  First he said don't wear mask, now he says wear mask.  That doesn't sound much like an expert.  Sounds more like he is flying by the seat of his pants.  The virus is very small.  Just to give you an idea how small.  The average human hair is about 70 microns in diameter.  The holes in a coffee filter are about 20 microns in diameter.  The covid19 virus is   Dot 125 microns in diameter.  That is about an eighth of a micron.  the best vacuum filters will filter a particle about 3 microns in diameter.  No Reputable Studies have been done that has proven wearing a mask protects anyone.  The frontline forces in the hospitals wear N95 masks and they still catch the virus too.  We want to believe wearing a mask makes a difference but we have only our feelings on that and no hard evidence.  On the other hand.  Wearing a mask for someone who is challenged on their breathing already, like a person with Asthma or other lung problems might be doing more harm than even the supposed good.  Trying to stop the virus with a mask is like throwing a handful of b-b's and expecting a chain link fence to stop them.  The virus doesn't just ride on water droplets it also rides on air currents and can probably travel greater distances than the 6 feet we allow for social distancing.  And we don't really know how long it can glide on air currents.  Maybe for hours like a hand glider can.  But if it makes you feel safe to wear a mask then wear one.  But I would think you would be better served by maintaining distance and keeping your hands away from your head entirely and wash them often.  Just a few observations I have made.  Don't know if they make you feel safer or not but if they make you think then I have accomplished my purpose.   To the person who had to go for cancer treatments alone, that has to be frightening.  I am sorry the CCP did this to you.  I pray that you fully recover from that cancer.  To everyone else.   Have a great day everyone.


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> I just came from work. They reopened our tents, and also two more COVID units and an overflow floor
> 
> They should have never closed the tents. That allowed WHOLE families to just enter the hospital “ummmm, we tested positive”, when a few weeks ago they were directed to the tents for triage.
> 
> still, morons with no business being in the er are showing up...dental pain, earaches....stuff that most ppl call their doctor for. Clogging up the er. If i didnt have to be in that cesspool i wouldnt. Why you bringing your kid in for a fat lip, put freakin ice on it she will be fine. And babies shouldnt wear masks because of co2, but yet here they are for non emergent complaints. It infuriates me!
> 
> one girl showed up because cotton from a qtip was stuck in her ear. Our er doc went out to the waiting room with tweezers and just pulled it out. GO HOME, STAY HOME Lol


I'm glad you are able to laugh about it after you get home.  I know it's never funny when you are at work and stressed out.  Stay safe, dodge the idiots (they DON'T know who they are), and be well.


----------



## Daisy

Hope Ann said:


> I had to go to cancer treatments alone through this.
> 
> Hope




Sorry to hear that and I hope you feel better soon. 
Best wishes


----------



## beckster51

raymondlgraham said:


> Dr. Fauci is supposed to be the expert.  He is regularly moving the goal post.  First he said don't wear mask, now he says wear mask.  That doesn't sound much like an expert.  Sounds more like he is flying by the seat of his pants.  The virus is very small.  Just to give you an idea how small.  The average human hair is about 70 microns in diameter.  The holes in a coffee filter are about 20 microns in diameter.  The covid19 virus is   Dot 125 microns in diameter.  That is about an eighth of a micron.  the best vacuum filters will filter a particle about 3 microns in diameter.  No Reputable Studies have been done that has proven wearing a mask protects anyone.  The frontline forces in the hospitals wear N95 masks and they still catch the virus too.  We want to believe wearing a mask makes a difference but we have only our feelings on that and no hard evidence.  On the other hand.  Wearing a mask for someone who is challenged on their breathing already, like a person with Asthma or other lung problems might be doing more harm than even the supposed good.  Trying to stop the virus with a mask is like throwing a handful of b-b's and expecting a chain link fence to stop them.  The virus doesn't just ride on water droplets it also rides on air currents and can probably travel greater distances than the 6 feet we allow for social distancing.  And we don't really know how long it can glide on air currents.  Maybe for hours like a hand glider can.  But if it makes you feel safe to wear a mask then wear one.  But I would think you would be better served by maintaining distance and keeping your hands away from your head entirely and wash them often.  Just a few observations I have made.  Don't know if they make you feel safer or not but if they make you think then I have accomplished my purpose.   To the person who had to go for cancer treatments alone, that has to be frightening.  I am sorry the CCP did this to you.  I pray that you fully recover from that cancer.  To everyone else.   Have a great day everyone.



Dr. Fauci changes his recommendations based on current knowledge, which is a good thing.  New virus, evolving knowledge.  



			https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818
		









						Yes, Wearing Masks Helps. Here's Why
					

Politicians argue. Those opposed to mask mandates protest. But meanwhile, growing evidence shows that mask wearing is a critical tool in curbing the spread of the coronavirus.




					www.npr.org
				











						Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus
					

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.




					www.ucsf.edu
				




Need more?  Just google it.


----------



## Megan

raymondlgraham said:


> First he said don't wear mask, now he says wear mask.





beckster51 said:


> Dr. Fauci changes his recommendations based on current knowledge, which is a good thing. New virus, evolving knowledge.



He also had/has to watch what he says because of the current administration...(not trying to open up a political debate, but for sure he was censored in the beginning). I think that has improved since the start of the pandemic

Plus, from what I understand, they didn't want people panic buying n-95s which were and still are in short supply. I believe this is true because it is logical that people would have wanted to buy the best of the best to protect themselves.


----------



## lshone

Wear a mask or don't wear a mask.

If you wear a mask and it has zero effectiveness, you're no worse off. 

If you wear a mask and it's 20% effective, you've added an additional layer to your defensive strategy.

I wash my hands regularly, only go out if I need to, physically distance AND wear a mask in public. 

Stay safe out there!


----------



## Catscankim

I need opinions from my fellow healthcare workers.

so last week, i call evs for a terminal clean. I just scanned two super-sick covid pts. I watched her from the control room, and she walked in with no gear on, sprayed the table, and left. I was horrified while she was in there. I put my mask on and ran in to tell her to gear-up. She ignored me.

after, i literally followed her down to the elevator....excuse me miss, miss, ma’am....HELLO!!! That was supposed to be a terminal clean. Shes like, thats what you get for terminal clean. Total chip on her shoulder and i don't know why.

couple days later i scanned a couple covid pts again, and called evs for a terminal clean. Same woman ....supervisor!!!! says they no longer terminally clean ct scan. Its off-hours, so i called the nursing supervisor. She calls me back and says that evs supervisor (this same woman) says that we do our own room. WHAAAAT????

i emailed my director, she responds that the process hasnt changed (Meaning, they should be cleaning our room).

i worked this weekend, its after hours and its a holiday weekend...im fricken chasing my tail here.

what do you think? Call infection control??


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> I need opinions from my fellow healthcare workers.
> 
> so last week, i call evs for a terminal clean. I just scanned two super-sick covid pts. I watched her from the control room, and she walked in with no gear on, sprayed the table, and left. I was horrified while she was in there. I put my mask on and ran in to tell her to gear-up. She ignored me.
> 
> after, i literally followed her down to the elevator....excuse me miss, miss, ma’am....HELLO!!! That was supposed to be a terminal clean. Shes like, thats what you get for terminal clean. Total chip on her shoulder and i don't know why.
> 
> couple days later i scanned a couple covid pts again, and called evs for a terminal clean. Same woman ....supervisor!!!! says they no longer terminally clean ct scan. Its off-hours, so i called the nursing supervisor. She calls me back and says that evs supervisor (this same woman) says that we do our own room. WHAAAAT????
> 
> i emailed my director, she responds that the process hasnt changed (Meaning, they should be cleaning our room).
> 
> i worked this weekend, its after hours and its a holiday weekend...im fricken chasing my tail here.
> 
> what do you think? Call infection control??


DEFINITELY!  Sorry, not yelling at you, using caps for emphasis.  If she is not following protocol for you, she is likely not following protocol for others.  That endangers staff, patients, and visitors all over the hospital.  The other option is to ask your supervisor to call IFC if you would rather not "tattle", and you can trust your supervisor to do so.   I wouldn't care about that myself, but I understand others feel differently.  I think it's your duty to find out the truth of the matter and reinforce proper technique.


----------



## Susie

Yes, I would call infection control.  Even if they do tell you to clean the room, at least you then know what you are supposed to do.  But right now, you have no update on the policy or the procedure, so you need clarification on both.  (I know you non-medical people are having fits right now wondering why I am quoting policy and procedure over this egregious refusal to clean, but if @Catscankim doesn't clean the room "correctly" according to P&P, SHE can be terminated and lose her licensing for not following P&P.  And that's not to mention if someone gets sick and IC tracks it back to that room, then she can be sued.  Following P&P keeps her employed and everyone safe.)


----------



## Megan

I would 100% blow that whistle too. She's putting people's lives at risk.


----------



## penelopejane

We have 100+ new covid cases In Victoria (a southern state In Oz). (That is a huge Number for us as most states had irradicated it here in Oz.) Some places in that state (including the capital) are back in lockdown and immediately we have shortages of toilet paper, flour, rice and pasta in NSW!  A totally different practically covid free state!  I don’t understand - didn’t people realise it wasn’t necessary last time?


----------



## mishmish

Can you use your phone to video record her doing her perfunctory "cleaning" while not wearing PPE? Document it so it's not just your word against hers. A person like that shouldn't be in charge of anything.


----------



## Catscankim

I talked to my director yesterday. she said the issue was was “fixed”. I called for a terminal clean, she laughed and said, “ yeah, ok” and hung up on me. Called today and she did the same....never coming to clean.

i went to talk to my director again today in person, after that it got cleaned by someone else in their dept. Its just this one woman.

i said, im not dealing with this crap all weekend with her....i WILL call infection control, and the union, and maybe OSHA while im at it.

we will see....


----------



## Susie

penelopejane said:


> We have 100+ new covid cases In Victoria (a southern state In Oz). (That is a huge Number for us as most states had irradicated it here in Oz.) Some places in that state (including the capital) are back in lockdown and immediately we have shortages of toilet paper, flour, rice and pasta in NSW!  A totally different practically covid free state!  I don’t understand - didn’t people realise it wasn’t necessary last time?



We have higher numbers now than ever before.  It is terrible.  We don't have shortages, but I just sent DH a list for Sam's that included stock up items we had shortages of before just to prevent having to go scramble in case people panic again.



Catscankim said:


> I talked to my director yesterday. she said the issue was was “fixed”. I called for a terminal clean, she laughed and said, “ yeah, ok” and hung up on me. Called today and she did the same....never coming to clean.
> 
> i went to talk to my director again today in person, after that it got cleaned by someone else in their dept. Its just this one woman.
> 
> i said, im not dealing with this crap all weekend with her....i WILL call infection control, and the union, and maybe OSHA while im at it.
> 
> we will see....


I am so sorry you are having this problem!  As if it was not stressful enough taking care of people who are positive for Covid-19, or just anybody during this time.  I certainly hope you get a true resolution to your problem.  You should not be having to deal with this, Catscankim.


----------



## Catscankim

You want to hear the craziest story?

 My friend posted on fb about how they have to dig 9cm into your nose to detect the virus but you can catch it from 6ft away....

I GET IT the whole stupid thing is confusing and nobody knows What the truth is.

I responded that i dont know, but all i can tell you is what i see at the hospital and it is way worse now than it was before. I gave some personal stats like...i scanned 40 patients toniight and 8 of them were covid+ on my 8 hour shift. And i have just finished my long run of (10) 8 hour shifts and its bad.... Ended with ...i get it...do what you need to do to keep you and yours safe, despite what you hear on tv. Im a frontliner and can only tell you what i see.

i was called a communist, a socialist, and a lot of bad names that i cant say here. One person asked me how much i was paid to say post that. Then this other guy blasted me because i have a fb profile picture with a thin blue line, and then the name calling started all over again.

this world has turned fing crazy.


----------



## AliOop

A well-respected doctor in Texas is advocating that we respond to the virus according to the way it is being handled in countries with very low COVID death rates (Japan, Taiwan, Singapore). Unlike the countries with high death rates, these densely-populated countries are beating COVID by:

1. Testing everyone
2. Treating early (none of this "go home and wait" stuff), and
3. Treating it with asthma medications 

He started doing this, and has not had one patient die yet. He is trying to get the word out that there IS effective treatment if people will get tested and then treated early. This is also happening in the three countries mentioned -- which did not close down, but DID do widespread testing and early treatment. 

Trigger warning: his YouTube video contains a LOT of conservative commentary. If that upsets you, please try to look past that for the substance of what is being discussed: Dr. Richard Barlett on Treating COVID


----------



## Jersey Girl

AliOop said:


> A well-respected doctor in Texas is advocating that we respond to the virus according to the way it is being handled in countries with very low COVID death rates (Japan, Taiwan, Singapore). Unlike the countries with high death rates, these densely-populated countries are beating COVID by:
> 
> 1. Testing everyone
> 2. Treating early (none of this "go home and wait" stuff), and
> 3. Treating it with asthma medications
> 
> He started doing this, and has not had one patient die yet. He is trying to get the word out that there IS effective treatment if people will get tested and then treated early. This is born out by the three countries mentioned -- which did not close down, but DID do widespread testing and early treatment.
> 
> Trigger warning: his YouTube video contains a LOT of conservative commentary. If that upsets you, please try to look past that for the substance of what is being discussed: Dr. Richard Barlett on Treating COVID


I’ve shared this video when I first saw it a few days ago.  He makes a lot of sense.


----------



## AliOop

Jersey Girl said:


> I’ve shared this video when I first saw it a few days ago.  He makes a lot of sense.


Here is another one that is more of a medical review (apolitical):

MedCram COVID19 Update


----------



## Catscankim

Im an in a border. When a patient wallks in and says “estoy enferma”...typically an immigrant...im like “Covid!”

nothing against a culture....but they all have it. Not all hispanics....Guatemalans down  here. Every one of them. Every. Single. One.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Catscankim said:


> Im an in a border. When a patient wallks in and says “estoy enferma”...typically an immigrant...im like “Covid!”
> 
> nothing against a culture....but they all have it. Not all hispanics....Guatemalans down  here. Every one of them. Every. Single. One.


Very disturbing. I’ll leave it at that.


----------



## AliOop

Jersey Girl said:


> Very disturbing. I’ll leave it at that.


I’m guessing that, as immigrants who don’t speak English and are probably continuing to work at their essential positions, they are exposed to a lot more potential illness and a lot less good information about protecting themselves. Culturally (and due to limited finances) they may also be living with more people in smaller homes, and less access to the best sanitation practices and tools. 

I don’t say this as a slur in any way, but as the reality that I observe when working with the child welfare system.


----------



## MGM

AliOop said:


> I’m guessing that, as immigrants who don’t speak English and are probably continuing to work at their essential positions, they are exposed to a lot more potential illness and a lot less good information about protecting themselves. Culturally (and due to limited finances) they may also be living with more people in smaller homes, and less access to the best sanitation practices and tools.
> 
> I don’t say this as a slur in any way, but as the reality that I observe when working with the child welfare system.


Yup, same thing in Ontario. Hundreds of migrant workers who were brought here to do back-breaking agricultural work have caught the virus from Canadians. Many have died. Neither their job nor their living conditions allows them to physically distance; at one point, they were told to keep working even if symptomatic.


----------



## Arimara

Catscankim said:


> You want to hear the craziest story?
> 
> My friend posted on fb about how they have to dig 9cm into your nose to detect the virus but you can catch it from 6ft away....
> 
> I GET IT the whole stupid thing is confusing and nobody knows What the truth is.
> 
> I responded that i dont know, but all i can tell you is what i see at the hospital and it is way worse now than it was before. I gave some personal stats like...i scanned 40 patients toniight and 8 of them were covid+ on my 8 hour shift. And i have just finished my long run of (10) 8 hour shifts and its bad.... Ended with ...i get it...do what you need to do to keep you and yours safe, despite what you hear on tv. Im a frontliner and can only tell you what i see.
> 
> i was called a communist, a socialist, and a lot of bad names that i cant say here. One person asked me how much i was paid to say post that. Then this other guy blasted me because i have a fb profile picture with a thin blue line, and then the name calling started all over again.
> 
> this world has turned fing crazy.


Part of why I stopped watching the news (reading it isn't much better depending on the source but life). Americans are used to thinking they can do whatever they want and it's gotten worse with the whole BLM stuff going on. We have a race war going on in the middle of another wave of a pandemic that is ongoing AND Americans don't like being told they have to wear a mask in order to get their necessities from stores directly.

It sucks that you got cussed out like that, I'm sorry it happened to you because no one needs that negativity and I hope things turn around (and that you have been reporting and making use of that block button).


----------



## PieBorg

Some of the dumbest things I've heard are, "I'm not gonna wear a mask because I'm a Christian, and I should be willing to die for God," and "I didn't think I had to worry about the virus.  I'm only 29."  

Cases and deaths in my part of the US are through the roof.  Masks are being given out for free by the health department, and masks have been mandated, although the police department says they won't enforce it.  People apparently think nothing of taking chances with their own health and the health of those they come into contact with.  This virus sounds horrible, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, even those who apparently don't care if they get it.  I just wish everyone would do their part, but maybe some people would literally rather die than practice the precautions.


----------



## Malleebird

I was encouraged yesterday by an email I received from a friend in Dongguan, China. The virus seems to be under control there now...when I say under control I mean the lid is being kept on.  She said it's back to business as usual and a lot of people have even stopped wearing face masks !  The rules are still in place though, re being tested if you have a cough, quarantine for travellers etc....but people don't break the rules !  If they do they are immediately exposed on social media and prosecuted.....not going to work anywhere but China !  At least we can see that it can be controlled if a government gets serious.


----------



## cerelife

@Catscankim I feel your pain!!
We've been cleaning our own CT rooms from the beginning because it's faster and we do it better and more thoroughly than EVS. We also have our air filtration tested weekly in each of our 3 CT rooms to make sure we remain at a 25-minute turnaround time. For those of you who don't work in healthcare - this means that it takes 25 minutes for the air in the CT scan room to be virus free for the next patient per a specialized filtration system. Which means that every time we scan a Covid positve (or Covid presumptive) patient we have to shut that room down for 25 minutes minimum! And we're being overwhelmed by Covid positive patients!!!
Now every employee in our ER is required to wear a N95 mask and a face shield or goggles for all interactions with patients. If you've never had to wear this stuff, let me tell you that it's uncomfortable/it's HOT/and you get sick of it really fast!! And heaven help you if you burp your lunch into your N95 mask....I may be off tuna salad sandwiches forever thanks to this.
So as a healthcare worker who has been on the frontline non-stop since the beginning of this mess, I beg everyone to please wear a mask when you have to be within 6 feet of other people and to NOT come to the ER for anything that isn't life-threatening right now. And that includes testing positive for Covid or being exposed to someone who tested positive. We know you're scared, but if you don't have any symptoms you don't need to be here. And for heaven's sake, STOP pulling your mask down to talk to us!!! Or pulling it off because it's not comfortable!! And BTW - it needs to cover your nose as well as your mouth, otherwise it's kind of like wearing a condom on your testicles.


----------



## Catscankim

None of our ct scan rooms is negative air pressure, which is scarey.

and i dont know how many times i have to tell a pt ...put your mask back on, please pull your mask up, cover your nose, cover your nose.

they havent required for us to wear n95s, just a mask and goggles. I had to purchase my own goggles. I havent had a hard time getting an n95, but the other day mine snapped. Rubber band strap hiit me right on the cheek...ow. But since it was after hours, i couldnt get another one from my manager, so i had to barter with the er and promise to replace it, which is sad. What is this, a third world country?

I been using my n95 on nearly every pt and i have bruises on my chin from it. I will write on my paperwork when i have worn one, so theres no guesswork when infection control calls. I told the other girls to do the same and they “keep forgetting”...how many times you gonna get a swab up your fricken nose before you remember. Newbies...


----------



## Ladka

Malleebird said:


> At least we can see that it can be controlled if a government gets serious.


I believe it's more when general population gets serious.


----------



## Catscankim

I agree. I dont want to be controlled by a government run state. But i also think ppl are so afraid of the same, that they do things in spite of the government. Which is why i talk about it a lot. Too many ppl say no, just because the government told you to.

Hear from honest, just as scared as you are front liners and then make your decision.

If the government told me that as of wednesday i could no longer buy a gun, sure as all heck im gonna go out to buy another gun on tuesday.

with so many uncertainties and questions, and media  and government etc giving ppl false senses of security... NOBODY really knows whats going on. Why risk it? Its really, literally ppls lives at stake


----------



## raymondlgraham

Since testing for the virus has ramped up considerably it important to understand that infection rates will reflect this.  Meaning we should expect to have a much higher infection rate due to a higher testing rate.  What we really need to know is is the Death Rate Dropping?  If it is, this tells us one of two things.  The virus is running its course or it is becoming less lethal.  The Death Rate is a much better indicator of what is going on with the virus than the infection or testing rates.  We scream believe the science, what we should be doing is reading the science correctly to start with.  And if we believe the Panic Driven Mainstream Media they are focusing on the infection/testing rate instead of the actual death rate.  Could it be this helps their ratings and increases their viewer numbers?   Maybe


----------



## Arimara

raymondlgraham said:


> Since testing for the virus has ramped up considerably it important to understand that infection rates will reflect this.  Meaning we should expect to have a much higher infection rate due to a higher testing rate.  What we really need to know is is the Death Rate Dropping?  If it is, this tells us one of two things.  The virus is running its course or it is becoming less lethal.  The Death Rate is a much better indicator of what is going on with the virus than the infection or testing rates.  We scream believe the science, what we should be doing is reading the science correctly to start with.  And if we believe the Panic Driven Mainstream Media they are focusing on the infection/testing rate instead of the actual death rate.  Could it be this helps their ratings and increases their viewer numbers?   Maybe


That does make logical sense to me.


----------



## goat soap rulz!

One of my friend's friends' kids got kicked in the head by a horse and passed away in the ER. They labeled her death certificate covid 19. The hospital likes to get paid the extra 38,000 dollars per covid death.


----------



## melinda48

AliOop said:


> A well-respected doctor in Texas is advocating that we respond to the virus according to the way it is being handled in countries with very low COVID death rates (Japan, Taiwan, Singapore). Unlike the countries with high death rates, these densely-populated countries are beating COVID by:
> 
> 1. Testing everyone
> 2. Treating early (none of this "go home and wait" stuff), and
> 3. Treating it with asthma medications
> 
> He started doing this, and has not had one patient die yet. He is trying to get the word out that there IS effective treatment if people will get tested and then treated early. This is also happening in the three countries mentioned -- which did not close down, but DID do widespread testing and early treatment.
> 
> Trigger warning: his YouTube video contains a LOT of conservative commentary. If that upsets you, please try to look past that for the substance of what is being discussed: Dr. Richard Barlett on Treating COVID


Conservative commentary? What is that? Dr. Bartlett is a superstar and everyone should be listening carefully to what he says!



goat soap rulz! said:


> One of my friend's friends' kids got kicked in the head by a horse and passed away in the ER. They labeled her death certificate covid 19. The hospital likes to get paid the extra 38,000 dollars per covid death.


There are far too many instances like this. Dying from Covid and with Covid are two different things entirely.



Arimara said:


> That does make logical sense to me.


The fatalities are in the tank which is a great thing. I don't even listen to the news any more as they are completely off base.



Ladka said:


> I believe it's more when general population gets serious.


The government does not need to "get serious." The death rate is very very low. We have to have herd immunity. Let's look to Sweden as an example of how to deal with Covid.


----------



## paradisi

goat soap rulz! said:


> One of my friend's friends' kids got kicked in the head by a horse and passed away in the ER. They labeled her death certificate covid 19. The hospital likes to get paid the extra 38,000 dollars per covid death.


That's not remotely how it works.
First, there's no "extra 38.000 per covid death." That figure is based on an average of the total medicare payment for a Covid19 patient spending 96 hours on a ventilator.  Not an extra payment on top.

Second, there's no billing code for Covid19. Charges are coded by what's done .. bloodwork, scans, iv's etc.

Third, billing is closely examined by all insurance providers and fraudulent charges like what you are suggesting would not only not be paid, there would be investigations and legal charges brought as defrauding the government is a federal crime.

Fourth, I googled and there's no evidence of hospitals padding death numbers. To the contrary, all evidence points to undercounting both infections and deaths.


----------



## melinda48

paradisi said:


> That's not remotely how it works.
> First, there's no "extra 38.000 per covid death." That figure is based on an average of the total medicare payment for a Covid19 patient spending 96 hours on a ventilator.  Not an extra payment on top.
> 
> Second, there's no billing code for Covid19. Charges are coded by what's done .. bloodwork, scans, iv's etc.
> 
> Third, billing is closely examined by all insurance providers and fraudulent charges like what you are suggesting would not only not be paid, there would be investigations and legal charges brought as defrauding the government is a federal crime.
> 
> Fourth, I googled and there's no evidence of hospitals padding death numbers. To the contrary, all evidence points to undercounting both infections and deaths.


You should check the stats for New York. Patients who died with Covid (not of Covid) listed as a covid death.


----------



## goat soap rulz!

paradisi said:


> Third, billing is closely examined by all insurance providers and fraudulent charges like what you are suggesting would not only not be paid, there would be investigations and legal charges brought as defrauding the government is a federal crime.


The family ended up filing a lawsuit. I haven't heard much since then. 

That was just what I was told. I was told they get money per COVID death. I didn't do any research, but it made sense because they have to pay for the medications/ventilators somehow. Maybe it was just this particular hospital. I didn't say it happened at all hospitals. 

Sorry if I was giving wrong info. I Didn't mean it like that. I was just saying what I was told...


----------



## Gaisy59

If everyone quarantined for two weeks minimum and only going out for food (and work) with masks it would help a lot to get this at least controlled and give the health care workers a break. It sure won’t hurt people to do this for a teensy portion if their lives so that we can get back to some semblance of normal. Pleeease


----------



## AliOop

Gaisy59 said:


> If everyone quarantined for two weeks minimum and only going out for food (and work) with masks it would help a lot to get this at least controlled and give the health care workers a break. It sure won’t hurt people to do this for a teensy portion if their lives so that we can get back to some semblance of normal. Pleeease


I agree that this could be part of the solution. But it is not correct to stay that it won't hurt people. Many people live from paycheck to paycheck. If they are forced to stay home for two unpaid weeks, they will be unable to pay their rent, pay their utilities, buy food for themselves and their children, etc.

So again, while I agree that lockdown will help slow or prevent the spread, saying that "it won't hurt" is very insulting to many who are struggling to make ends meet.

Also, the countries with the highest death rates - the US, Italy, and France, for instance - are those that are locking down, wearing masks, social distancing, and telling people not to come to the hospital until they are very sick. 

The countries with the lowest death rates (Japan, Singapore, and Taiwan) have focused on tracing those possibly infected, testing as many people as possible, and treating early with corticosteroids.


----------



## Catscankim

A ton of our housekeeping are out with corona. Really no surprise there. Theres only a few of them that truly do what they are supposed to as far as ppe. I had to yell at their supervisor once because of her lack of ppe in a contaminated room. I mean...not even a mask.

A bunch of unit clerks are out with it. I dont know how that happened....they really dont have contact with patients. This is a mystery to me.

Two ct techs. Scary cause i work with them. They are getting tested tomorrow. All i know is that “they dont feel good”.

Our covid units are at capacity again, so all covid+ patients that came in tonight are holding in the er, and the day shift failed to tell anybody that er bed #9 was positive so we are like...great, thanks guys....


----------



## penelopejane

melinda48 said:


> The government does not need to "get serious." The death rate is very very low. We have to have herd immunity. Let's look to Sweden as an example of how to deal with Covid.


Have you looked at the figures? See below. The death rate for completed cases is 7% that is not low and this pandemic is far from over.

Sweden has said they would do things differently if they knew In the beginning what they know now. Their death rate per million population is even higher than the US and the surrounding countries have closed their borders to the Swedish.

if you want to copy anyone look at Vietnam. No 160 on the list below with 97 million people In crowded conditions and NO deaths. They closed borders early, socially distanced, everyone wears masks and they quarantined new arrivals, traced cases and quarantined people with the virus. They have learnt from the 1918 flu, Mers, SARS, and H1N1 how to respond to quickly spreading fatal diseases and they want to protect themselves and their families and communities as best they can.









						COVID Live Update: 140,558,460 Cases and 3,012,991 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info


----------



## Gaisy59

AliOop said:


> I agree that this could be part of the solution. But it is not correct to stay that it won't hurt people. Many people live from paycheck to paycheck. If they are forced to stay home for two unpaid weeks, they will be unable to pay their rent, pay their utilities, buy food for themselves and their children, etc.
> 
> So again, while I agree that lockdown will help slow or prevent the spread, saying that "it won't hurt" is very insulting to many who are struggling to make ends meet.
> 
> Also, the countries with the highest death rates - the US, Italy, and France, for instance - are those that are locking down, wearing masks, social distancing, and telling people not to come to the hospital until they are very sick.
> 
> The countries with the lowest death rates (Japan, Singapore, and Taiwan) have focused on tracing those possibly infected, testing as many people as possible, and treating early with corticosteroids.


Hey AliOop i did say they would grocery shop and work. I totally agree that an economy cannot shut down. Unfortunately our prime minister thought that keeping people home from work was a solution, but has been paying out money from the coffers and if no one is working who is filling the “bottomless bank”?!
And WHY did we not do what VietNam did? We saw it coming but we did not shut down our borders and immediately screen people.


----------



## Marsi

Vaccine trials 13 July 2020

Queensland


----------



## Megan

raymondlgraham said:


> Since testing for the virus has ramped up considerably it important to understand that infection rates will reflect this.  Meaning we should expect to have a much higher infection rate due to a higher testing rate.  What we really need to know is is the Death Rate Dropping?  If it is, this tells us one of two things.  The virus is running its course or it is becoming less lethal.  The Death Rate is a much better indicator of what is going on with the virus than the infection or testing rates.  We scream believe the science, what we should be doing is reading the science correctly to start with.  And if we believe the Panic Driven Mainstream Media they are focusing on the infection/testing rate instead of the actual death rate.  Could it be this helps their ratings and increases their viewer numbers?   Maybe



The issue is, deaths lag behind infections. So infection rates are going to go up (as we are seeing), and then 2-4 weeks later, we are likely to see an increase in the death rate. This is especially going to be true in places like Florida, where ICU capacity is being maxed out. 

The current administration's rhetoric on the death rate going down means nothing...and will mean nothing until the pandemic is over and we can actually see the case fatality ratio. If infections continue to increase, and mortality continues to fall...then I might be more convinced. Hopefully this can become the case, but to claim this has already happened is foolish.

Plus, it has been estimated, in a well controlled scenario (for instance S.Korea), the actual mortality rate of Covid-19 is anywhere from .2-1%...yet we are seeing an average death rate of 8% in the US...and 7% in Sweden for the people saying they did so well...and there are people who have the gall to claim (and continue to claim) we are doing so well in fighting the pandemic.

Even mortality rate aside...there are people who will have life altering complications from Covid. So they don't die, but they have irreversible scarring in their lungs, or nerve damage, or a host of other issues. Yet people still gripe about having to wear a mask...and grown adults are having temper tantrums when Costco is denying them entry for not following the rules.


----------



## DKing

raymondlgraham said:


> Since testing for the virus has ramped up considerably it important to understand that infection rates will reflect this.  Meaning we should expect to have a much higher infection rate due to a higher testing rate.  What we really need to know is is the Death Rate Dropping?  If it is, this tells us one of two things.  The virus is running its course or it is becoming less lethal.  The Death Rate is a much better indicator of what is going on with the virus than the infection or testing rates.  We scream believe the science, what we should be doing is reading the science correctly to start with.  And if we believe the Panic Driven Mainstream Media they are focusing on the infection/testing rate instead of the actual death rate.  Could it be this helps their ratings and increases their viewer numbers?   Maybe


The thing about the infection rate and the death rate is....we might see a spike in infection weeks to months before we see a spike in deaths.  Some people might interpret that time as that the virus isn't as lethal as the science currently might indicate.  Then we get less people willing to take precautions and imagine how the virus will spread in that time.  (the US is a good example of this happening currently)  We need to look back at what has been happening over the half year+ that this has been really showing it's teeth.  The death rate to known infection has been significant enough to warrant taking extra precautions.  Wear a mask, avoid crowds, protect our elderly and people at increased risk, don't travel far, remember where you have been and who you have been around incase you need to assist in helping trace a cluster.  Is it that much of a burden???  I think that the media is doing more to protect lives than some leaders have.  Listen to the science and take precautions.  If it ends up being not as serious as the media might lead one to believe, it is serious enough that many have lost their lives.  All I know is, if someone I loved died due to my unwillingness to make a few changes in my life, I would regret it for life.  There has been so much bullshit said about this virus on both ends of the spectrum that no one really knows what to believe any longer so I can understand why each person might be confused what to believe.  I myself would rather error on the side of caution though, and take precautions to limit my own personal risks and definitely reduce my risk of unintentionally passing it on to others that might not fare as well as I probably will.  I care enough about others to tread a little lighter and listen to the science that is currently out.  I have so many people I love who are elderly and have pre existing conditions, that I would not want anything to happen to them.  I also have people I love who work in health care or other essential services, and I know the incredible strain that this virus has on them as well.  I will do what I have to do to help others out, even if I am not at an extreme risk according to the science.


----------



## Catscankim

We had an MCI tonight....Mass Casualty Incident. Multi-car accident and they were bringing them all to us. Christ i dont know how many i scanned. During my third patient, they called me to let me know that at least 7 of them tested positive for covid.

we have a radio system with ems...i kept hearing “hello this is medcom, can you accept one more, hello medcom, can you accept six? Hello medcom can you accept seven?  Overhead pages....“Trauma alert, 5 by ground, two by air” “ Trauma alert two by ground”. I have videos of all the chaos. It was like a MASH unit.

Then find out they are ALL testing positive. I could have thrown up.

And i sent my very INEXPERIENCED partner up to the other scanner. I called her on her cell....(lots of curse words here that i will omit)...why is your n95 sitting here???? “ because i needed to clean it”.

I have no words for that

No emergencies during a pandemic. 

im like you get down here and get your mask. So i called trauma to have them bring the rest to me, because nitwit doesn't have her ppe.


----------



## LBV

I'm from NZ and I think many of us struggle to understand how people in other countries can be so selfish, stupid (in some cases). We currently have no community transmission, but all current cases are in quarantine at the border. There have been a few who have escaped quarantine and the public have been extremely strong in their condemnation (and belief that they should immediately sent to prison). When Covid was out in the community, as a country we went into lockdown. Unfortunately the virus made it into a rest home and the death rate there was extremely high due to the vulnerability of the residents. Our view as a nation was Be Kind. I can not understand why wearing a mask is such a big thing?


----------



## shunt2011

LBV said:


> I'm from NZ and I think many of us struggle to understand how people in other countries can be so selfish, stupid (in some cases). We currently have no community transmission, but all current cases are in quarantine at the border. There have been a few who have escaped quarantine and the public have been extremely strong in their condemnation (and belief that they should immediately sent to prison). When Covid was out in the community, as a country we went into lockdown. Unfortunately the virus made it into a rest home and the death rate there was extremely high due to the vulnerability of the residents. Our view as a nation was Be Kind. I can not understand why wearing a mask is such a big thing?



The problem is that the news is nothing but scare tactics and not always giving the best information.  That on top of all those from all sides stating it's a political game.   I know here I see so much hate and intolerance for others opinions and fears.   Facebook has become a huge dumpster fire of hate.    A lot of selfish people.    Sadly, we'll never know the true statistics for infection rate or death for that matter.   Here testing is a free for all.  There are people being tested several times a week.  That's certainly going to increase the numbers.  We need a better way of tracking and reporting.  Sadly it's become a true nightmare for many.  Wear a darn mask.  Quit whining.  Have some compassion.


----------



## Megan

Catscankim said:


> We had an MCI tonight....Mass Casualty Incident. Multi-car accident and they were bringing them all to us. Christ i dont know how many i scanned. During my third patient, they called me to let me know that at least 7 of them tested positive for covid.
> 
> we have a radio system with ems...i kept hearing “hello this is medcom, can you accept one more, hello medcom, can you accept six? Hello medcom can you accept seven?  Overhead pages....“Trauma alert, 5 by ground, two by air” “ Trauma alert two by ground”. I have videos of all the chaos. It was like a MASH unit.
> 
> Then find out they are ALL testing positive. I could have thrown up.
> 
> And i sent my very INEXPERIENCED partner up to the other scanner. I called her on her cell....(lots of curse words here that i will omit)...why is your n95 sitting here???? “ because i needed to clean it”.
> 
> I have no words for that
> 
> No emergencies during a pandemic.
> 
> im like you get down here and get your mask. So i called trauma to have them bring the rest to me, because nitwit doesn't have her ppe.



That sounds like a horrible night. It's crazy that they all turned up positive. I'm sending you good vibes that you can keep your health.

Also, I've read quite a few of your messages since you've joined. It literally has taken me until now to figure out your screen name...so I'm facepalming right now.


----------



## melinda48

penelopejane said:


> Have you looked at the figures? See below. The death rate for completed cases is 7% that is not low and this pandemic is far from over.
> 
> Sweden has said they would do things differently if they knew In the beginning what they know now. Their death rate per million population is even higher than the US and the surrounding countries have closed their borders to the Swedish.
> 
> if you want to copy anyone look at Vietnam. No 160 on the list below with 97 million people In crowded conditions and NO deaths. They closed borders early, socially distanced, everyone wears masks and they quarantined new arrivals, traced cases and quarantined people with the virus. They have learnt from the 1918 flu, Mers, SARS, and H1N1 how to respond to quickly spreading fatal diseases and they want to protect themselves and their families and communities as best they can.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Live Update: 140,558,460 Cases and 3,012,991 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
> 
> 
> Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.worldometers.info


How many people are there in the US? How many in Vietnam? Please view current data here:


----------



## Megan

The population of Vietnam is about 1/3 the population of the US....yet the population density of Vietnam is over 5x higher (so had the virus gotten as out of control there as it did here, they would have had a major problem). So I really don't understand your argument or what you are trying to point out.


----------



## penelopejane

melinda48 said:


> The government does not need to "get serious." The death rate is very very low. We have to have herd immunity. Let's look to Sweden as an example of how to deal with Covid.





melinda48 said:


> How many people are there in the US? How many in Vietnam? Please view current data here:



I don't know where you got that chart from but it is not even remotely correct. 
The US had 1001 covid deaths in the last 24 hours alone and 71,750 new cases.  (16 July 2020) 
Your chart seems to indicate that there were less than 10 deaths due to covid in the week ending 11 July.  This is not correct.
See the corona virus data for the US here:








						United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer
					

United States Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.




					www.worldometers.info
				




Compare the US to the rest of the world here:








						COVID Live Update: 140,558,460 Cases and 3,012,991 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info
				




This link tells you where the data comes from and who uses it.  It is a trusted site world wide.








						About Worldometer COVID-19 data - Worldometer
					






					www.worldometers.info
				




There are 97 million people in Vietnam and there are 330 million people in the USA.  There are no deaths from covid-19 in Vietnam and there are now over 140,000 deaths from covid-19 in the US and that number is growing rapidly.  It is very, very sad. 

I was pointing out that Vietnam has learnt through past experience how to react to a pandemic threat and has performed really really well.  Sweden thought it knew better but has learnt a bitter lesson and would not do the same thing if a new pandemic arose in future.

It will take 14 years, on current figures, for the US to get herd immunity.  I do not want to even think about the number of deaths that would entail to reach.  I think it is easier to stop the virus.  The consequences of catching covid-19 are just being realised.  The majority of covid-19 patients in a major Sydney Hospital (St Vincents) who contracted the disease since March and have been treated and sent home have still got lingering symptoms now.  I think it is much better, for me at least, to avoid catching it.


----------



## asiaspyro

For the USA, do be cautious about new covid numbers as they aren't going to the CDC anymore...








						Did Trump Admin Remove CDC as Overseer of COVID-19 Hospital Data?
					

In what was framed as an effort to streamline the reporting process, the federal government ordered hospitals to send patient information to a centralized database operated by HHS.




					www.snopes.com
				




For me, in Colorado, starting tomorrow we're doing mandatory masks for everyone including customers. Before it was only employees who have to wear one. My sister in law is already throwing a fit over her "constitutional rights" or something >.>

If only our federal govt could make a full decision on freezing payments or even giving out funds but it feels like they're just trying to delay anything until they think covid will just blow over or something. Not to mention people who don't bat an eye at 165k people dead because 99% recovery is a better sounding number. It's a scary time.


----------



## TashaBird

Today was a rough day for me. 30 years as a massage therapist and I have no idea what I’m going to do. I can’t work, and I don’t even want to. Even with masks that close proximity is too risky. I’m just so anxious and sad. Didn’t really think I was going to have to figure out a new line of work at 50.... anyway, some days are ok, today really wasn’t. I’m going to make soap tomorrow. Really wish I could just make soap for a living. Bet I could be a hundredaire!


----------



## Catscankim

I am sorry TashaBird. I wish i had good advice for you. Being close to 50 myself and thinking recently....im to old for this crap lol. Been in my field for 25 years.

i probably wont do it, but i thought of medical coding. Very short schooling, they make good money, and most work from home.

So my work horror story from today lol....

Our trauma nurse is still out with covid. Shes super sick and says that she feels like every bone in her body is broken. She did a video call with the PA at her dr office and he said that he cant prescribe pain meds “on the phone”. Shes diagnosed....so what the heck is she supposed to do since shes not exactly welcomed IN the office.

CT tech hasnt gotten her test results back yet, but she spoke with employee health, and based on her symptoms they have put her under quarantine.

she wears full ppe gear for her entire shift no matter if she needs to or not. I actually yelled at her one day that she needs to breathe once in a while or shes gonna make herself sick. She never takes it off...n95 with a mask on top....face shield, goggles. All this and i just found out that she went to a 4th of july house party with 50 ppl....her husband and his mother, and a bunch of ppl at that party are all sick and tested positive. This INFURIATES me. Stupid child. I imagine all of these 50 ppl are gonna be sick. Why the show with the “gearing up” for hours at a time, just to go to a party later....

As far as the ER tonight, i only know of one positive, but i was super busy so didnt really pay attention too much.

I talked to one of the ER docs and asked why they keep ordering PE (lung clots) studies on covid patients...apparently ppl with covid develop a clotting disorder and a lot of them are getting either pulmonary embolisms or having strokes as an added bonus.



Megan said:


> That sounds like a horrible night. It's crazy that they all turned up positive. I'm sending you good vibes that you can keep your health.
> 
> Also, I've read quite a few of your messages since you've joined. It literally has taken me until now to figure out your screen name...so I'm facepalming right now.


LOL

there is a story behind that. Years ago at a hospital i worked at, they had a rule that you needed to answer the phone with your dept and name. Makes sense lol.

so i answer the phone cat scan, kim....i guess i say it fast lol.

i was in the cafeteria and i was ordering food, and this woman in front of me is like, “omg! Catscankim!” She was the hospital operator lol. We never met, she just knew my voice from the phone lol


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> So my work horror story from today lol....
> 
> Our trauma nurse is still out with covid. Shes super sick and says that she feels like every bone in her body is broken. She did a video call with the PA at her dr office and he said that he cant prescribe pain meds “on the phone”. Shes diagnosed....so what the heck is she supposed to do since shes not exactly welcomed IN the office.
> 
> CT tech hasnt gotten her test results back yet, but she spoke with employee health, and based on her symptoms they have put her under quarantine.
> 
> she wears full ppe gear for her entire shift no matter if she needs to or not. I actually yelled at her one day that she needs to breathe once in a while or shes gonna make herself sick. She never takes it off...n95 with a mask on top....face shield, goggles. All this and i just found out that she went to a 4th of july house party with 50 ppl....her husband and his mother, and a bunch of ppl at that party are all sick and tested positive. This INFURIATES me. Stupid child. I imagine all of these 50 ppl are gonna be sick. Why the show with the “gearing up” for hours at a time, just to go to a party later....
> 
> As far as the ER tonight, i only know of one positive, but i was super busy so didnt really pay attention too much.
> 
> I talked to one of the ER docs and asked why they keep ordering PE (lung clots) studies on covid patients...apparently ppl with covid develop a clotting disorder and a lot of them are getting either pulmonary embolisms or having strokes as an added bonus.





asiaspyro said:


> For the USA, do be cautious about new covid numbers as they aren't going to the CDC anymore...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did Trump Admin Remove CDC as Overseer of COVID-19 Hospital Data?
> 
> 
> In what was framed as an effort to streamline the reporting process, the federal government ordered hospitals to send patient information to a centralized database operated by HHS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.snopes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For me, in Colorado, starting tomorrow we're doing mandatory masks for everyone including customers. Before it was only employees who have to wear one. My sister in law is already throwing a fit over her "constitutional rights" or something >.>
> 
> If only our federal govt could make a full decision on freezing payments or even giving out funds but it feels like they're just trying to delay anything until they think covid will just blow over or something. Not to mention people who don't bat an eye at 165k people dead because 99% recovery is a better sounding number. It's a scary time.


I keep up with the cases and deaths by using the John Hopkins dashboard.  It has been lauded to be very accurate.  You can search by country, state in the US, etc.  Here is the link.









						COVID-19 Map - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center
					

Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University (JHU)




					coronavirus.jhu.edu
				




I wonder if HHS will even let us know what the numbers are.  This seems to be a deliberate obsfuscation of the information.  It's maddening.


----------



## Megan

beckster51 said:


> I wonder if HHS will even let us know what the numbers are.  This seems to be a deliberate obfuscation of the information.  It's maddening.



I doubt that I'll be believing the data that they put out (like you said, if they even do) anymore.


----------



## cerelife

Catscankim said:


> I talked to one of the ER docs and asked why they keep ordering PE (lung clots) studies on covid patients...apparently ppl with covid develop a clotting disorder and a lot of them are getting either pulmonary embolisms or having strokes as an added bonus.


Yep, we're getting a ton of these as well as excessive amounts of CTA Head/Neck studies. DESPITE the fact that contrast administration is contraindicated for Covid patients due to the propensity for renal failure!!

And as for the mask debate...I've actually had people get snarky with me for wearing a mask in a grocery store more than once. One of those times I was in my work scrubs (because we have to shop too and our free time is limited right now) and this woman approached me and said "You know that mask doesn't protect you, right?"
Ummm, YEAH dahlin I *AM* aware of that. I'm wearing it to protect *YOU*. Do you see what else I'm wearing? I'm rolling in Covid 5 to 6 days a week so I'm trying to be a decent, responsible member of society. But if my mask bothers you so much, I can take it off and we can have a nice long talk about _why_ it bothers you so much. Heck, I'll even give you a big ole hug to apologize for offending you!
The look on her face was priceless and she got away from me toute de suite!


----------



## Catscankim

Yeah, the easiest way to clear out a supermarket aisle is to walk around in your scrubs lol

its usually before work in my clean scrubs, but the reaction is the same cause they dont know


----------



## Marsi

our front line people here are getting exhausted in PPE

this pandemic is harsh


----------



## Jor224

Greetings from Indonesia. Our situation here is also worsened with spread of covid 19 due to people not exercising proper safety discipline in public. Because of this pandemic, I started to step into soap business for hands and dishes. With increasing usage of soap, I hope I can help to provide soap that are gentle to hands.


----------



## Catscankim

Marsi said:


> our front line people here are getting exhausted in PPE
> 
> this pandemic is harsh


i have sore spots behind my ears from the masks combined with my glasses. My glasses are progressives, so they need to sit just right on my face or else everything is like looking through a glass of water. Im constantly touching, moving, adjusting my glasses and mask straps cause it hurts or i cant see.


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> i have sore spots behind my ears from the masks combined with my glasses. My glasses are progressives, so they need to sit just right on my face or else everything is like looking through a glass of water. Im constantly touching, moving, adjusting my glasses and mask straps cause it hurts or i cant see.


I would suggest that you think about getting one of those adapters that let's you fasten your mask on the back of your head. If I had to wear a mask all day, my ears would be so sore that I could not wear my glasses.  The skin behind the ears is so tender!  You could probably make them yourself or find them cheaper.  This is just the first version I found when googling.  Just a thought.






						This item is unavailable - Etsy
					

Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewelry, and more… lots more.




					www.etsy.com


----------



## TashaBird

Catscankim said:


> i have sore spots behind my ears from the masks combined with my glasses. My glasses are progressives, so they need to sit just right on my face or else everything is like looking through a glass of water. Im constantly touching, moving, adjusting my glasses and mask straps cause it hurts or i cant see.


Have you seen this idea?


----------



## Catscankim

beckster51 said:


> I would suggest that you think about getting one of those adapters that let's you fasten your mask on the back of your head. If I had to wear a mask all day, my ears would be so sore that I could not wear my glasses.  The skin behind the ears is so tender!  You could probably make them yourself or find them cheaper.  This is just the first version I found when googling.  Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This item is unavailable - Etsy
> 
> 
> Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewelry, and more… lots more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com


I have seen a lot of ppl with those. We actually had a bunch of them donated to the hospital and for a while they were laying around everywhere, but i never grabbed one. Iv watched ppl put them on and they seem a little cumbersome, especially since we generally wear two masks....n95 plus a surgical mask on top. 

i have off this weekend so im gonna find a surgical hat pattern that i can sew and add buttons to wrap the mask straps on. I dunno. This might be out of my skillset. I do quilting, never followed a hat pattern before lol.



TashaBird said:


> Have you seen this idea?


THAT looks like a good idea

Soooo....one of our ct techs just tested positive. Dont get me wrong, i do not think this is because of work. Stupid kid went to a house party 50+ ppl. All of them are sick. Im so mad at her. How irresponsible and now possibly infecting the rest of us in the past two weeks.

There are only 7 of us, now 6. We were short staffed to begin with...

anyway. I was talking to a nurse yesterday. She said “at least we arent at 50% today” im like 50% what.... “50% of our er/trauma all week have been positive”. So im guessing there are stats around somewhere. I dont have work this weekend, so i will find out where she got those stats on monday when i go back.

I need to hit the lottery


----------



## MarnieSoapien

The family and I met up with a friend of ours and her boyfriend for the afternoon. She greeted me by giving me a big hug. I think it was the first hug I've gotten from a friend in at least 5 months! And she loves my soaps, she even bought 3 bars.  

My hubby suggested that we try to get my mom over here for a couple of months. She's 72, has asthma and lives in Texas. We are worried about her. She is very careful, wears a mask when she goes out and is still social distancing, but I think her social distancing is slipping a bit lately. I don't know if she will come or not. She can come into the country and stay for 90 days, which might be enough time for things to cool down a bit in the States. Or not. I dunno anymore. If she comes here and things are still looking bad in the States, we might try to get her temporary refugee status. Or send her to visit my cousin in the UK. I'm terrified that she might get sick and I'm on the other side of the world.


----------



## dibbles

MarnieSoapien said:


> The family and I met up with a friend of ours and her boyfriend for the afternoon. She greeted me by giving me a big hug. I think it was the first hug I've gotten from a friend in at least 5 months! And she loves my soaps, she even bought 3 bars.
> 
> My hubby suggested that we try to get my mom over here for a couple of months. She's 72, has asthma and lives in Texas. We are worried about her. She is very careful, wears a mask when she goes out and is still social distancing, but I think her social distancing is slipping a bit lately. I don't know if she will come or not. She can come into the country and stay for 90 days, which might be enough time for things to cool down a bit in the States. Or not. I dunno anymore. If she comes here and things are still looking bad in the States, we might try to get her temporary refugee status. Or send her to visit my cousin in the UK. I'm terrified that she might get sick and I'm on the other side of the world.


That seems like it might be a good idea. I hope she considers it.


----------



## Catscankim

MarnieSoapien said:


> The family and I met up with a friend of ours and her boyfriend for the afternoon. She greeted me by giving me a big hug. I think it was the first hug I've gotten from a friend in at least 5 months! And she loves my soaps, she even bought 3 bars.
> 
> My hubby suggested that we try to get my mom over here for a couple of months. She's 72, has asthma and lives in Texas. We are worried about her. She is very careful, wears a mask when she goes out and is still social distancing, but I think her social distancing is slipping a bit lately. I don't know if she will come or not. She can come into the country and stay for 90 days, which might be enough time for things to cool down a bit in the States. Or not. I dunno anymore. If she comes here and things are still looking bad in the States, we might try to get her temporary refugee status. Or send her to visit my cousin in the UK. I'm terrified that she might get sick and I'm on the other side of the world.


There are so many variables. I dont know a right or wrong answer. You do whats right for you.

I do think that all parties should be tested first and then self quarantine Until she gets to you. Personal opinion only.


----------



## BattleGnome

Catscankim said:


> i have sore spots behind my ears from the masks combined with my glasses.



my husband stretches out a paperclip to use as an ear protector. It’s reusable if you want it to be but also easy to toss/remake if you get worried about contamination. I occasionally use a ribbon to tie back my masks, it has the added benefit of allowing me to tighten the seal around the mask if I need it.


----------



## DKing

Catscankim said:


> Soooo....one of our ct techs just tested positive. Dont get me wrong, i do not think this is because of work. Stupid kid went to a house party 50+ ppl. All of them are sick. Im so mad at her. How irresponsible and now possibly infecting the rest of us in the past two weeks.
> 
> There are only 7 of us, now 6. We were short staffed to begin with...
> 
> anyway. I was talking to a nurse yesterday. She said “at least we arent at 50% today” im like 50% what.... “50% of our er/trauma all week have been positive”. So im guessing there are stats around somewhere. I dont have work this weekend, so i will find out where she got those stats on monday when i go back.


These younger people just don't seem to get it.  You would think that with her being a hospital worker that she would be a little more enlightened than your typical 20-30ish year old and would not put herself or her co workers in potential danger by engaging in risky behavior.  We are going through a similar situation in our city right now.  Up until now we have been fairly fortunate, but due to the recent holiday weekend and living in a tourist town, we are getting a significant cluster of cases from young people coming to our town to party.  So far the tally is at 35 confirmed cases (6 being hospital staff) and hundreds at risk.  Multiple businesses are having to close down in an attempt to stop the spread.  Most affected so far are in their 20's and 30's, but who knows who they may have passed it on to between catching it and getting diagnosed.  It is frustrating that not everyone is taking this seriously.  Until it has fully played out and no new cases emerge for awhile, I am staying home.  I went shopping today to grab several hundred dollars worth of food and supplies I might need for the next few weeks, and now I am staying away from everyone but my immediate family.  I feel badly for those not in the same position as I am and have no other choice but to go out into public places on a regular basis.  
Stay safe @Catscankim   I can only imagine what hell it would be to wear an n95 mask your whole shift!


----------



## Marsi

Students over 12 are required to wear a mask in class from Thursday morning
homemade bandanas are allowed
see some interesting classes coming up


----------



## TheGecko

I haven’t seen my grand babies since February; youngest wasn’t even a month old and now he’s a six-month old chunka chunk.  Talked to my son on Wednesday and he said he sees no reason why we can’t come up next month for his oldest’s birthday...she will be four.  PROVIDING...he and his girlfriend test negative after being exposed via daughter’s daycare.  

Youngest daughter is battling Unemployment. Not a problem getting UI while she was sick with CV-19 until she returned to work full-time, it’s that she quit her job because after retuning to full duty, she found she could no longer do her job due to respiratory issues.

Outside of my immediate household, I’ve only hugged one other person. That was a very good friend who had just lost her daughter due to CV-19. Her daughter had just retuned to work after being out for 8 weeks, was looking forward to spending a quiet weekend with her boyfriend...32-years old and she had a stroke.

I’m back at the office, but it’s closed to the public except by appointment and we have an office located next to the side door that is strictly for that. We don’t have to wear masks while in our respective offices, only in the common areas or while going to other offices. 

I’m just so sick and tired of it all.  I’ve lost several friends over it (differences), both of my sisters have drunk the Kook-Aid and my Knitting Retreat was canceled!!!  Now we have all this BLM crap and nightly riots.  I’m tired of all the ‘experts’, I’m tired of the ‘race baiters’, I’m sick of all the hatred and violence being spewed by everyone. I just want to order FOs and get them in a week instead of three weeks.  I want to go to the yarn store and squish the squish yarn with my bare hands.  I want to hug my grandbabies!


----------



## Catscankim

TheGecko said:


> I haven’t seen my grand babies since February; youngest wasn’t even a month old and now he’s a six-month old chunka chunk.  Talked to my son on Wednesday and he said he sees no reason why we can’t come up next month for his oldest’s birthday...she will be four.  PROVIDING...he and his girlfriend test negative after being exposed via daughter’s daycare.
> 
> Youngest daughter is battling Unemployment. Not a problem getting UI while she was sick with CV-19 until she returned to work full-time, it’s that she quit her job because after retuning to full duty, she found she could no longer do her job due to respiratory issues.
> 
> Outside of my immediate household, I’ve only hugged one other person. That was a very good friend who had just lost her daughter due to CV-19. Her daughter had just retuned to work after being out for 8 weeks, was looking forward to spending a quiet weekend with her boyfriend...32-years old and she had a stroke.
> 
> I’m back at the office, but it’s closed to the public except by appointment and we have an office located next to the side door that is strictly for that. We don’t have to wear masks while in our respective offices, only in the common areas or while going to other offices.
> 
> I’m just so sick and tired of it all.  I’ve lost several friends over it (differences), both of my sisters have drunk the Kook-Aid and my Knitting Retreat was canceled!!!  Now we have all this BLM crap and nightly riots.  I’m tired of all the ‘experts’, I’m tired of the ‘race baiters’, I’m sick of all the hatred and violence being spewed by everyone. I just want to order FOs and get them in a week instead of three weeks.  I want to go to the yarn store and squish the squish yarn with my bare hands.  I want to hug my grandbabies!


Im so sorry gecko. I feel your pain. Reading your post...i really feel your pain.

i dont know how to get back to normal. I live alone, so this isolation is pretty hard. Yeah, i have work, but then i go home, alone. Except my furballs.

i get home from work and literally strip down at the door (after i let the dog out, she cant wait lol). My new sneakers have been washed and bleached so many times they look like they are 5 years old. Everybody always laughed at me for wearing only white leather sneakers. I was trained that way. White can be cleaned properly.

i been up since 4am cleaning my house and sanitizing cause i have some virex i “borrowed” from the hospital.

My daughter is out of work. First furloughed,  now officially let go. She just bought her house right before all of this. I offered for her to come here, but her fiancé said no because of my job.

i play pool. They are starting league back up today at the billiard. My friend is the owner. She assured me that all social distancing guidelines are being followed and tons on hand sanitizer available blah blah blah. With all the crap i deal with at the hospital....”I” am not afraid of them, they should be afraid of me.

i might test the water. I dunno. I dont want anybody to come back and say kim showed up at league last week and now im sick.

Aaaaand, i planned on either getting some sun in the back yard or going to the beach, but the weather keeps saying its going to storm soon (since 9am). so i didnt go out. Its still sunny with zero rain. Stupid weaterman.

im sure once i pack up and go out, it will turn into a hurricane lol


----------



## beckster51

I feel everybody's pain these days.  Life as we know it has gone down the tubes.  Some of us are better off than others, but nobody's life is the same, is it?  I try to practice gratitude, but it's difficult at times.  I have enough to eat.  I have a relatively safe place to live.  I am a retired advanced practice nurse, so I am grateful I am no longer in the fray.  I'm lucky that I have the knowledge to understand what is going on and how to reasonably protect myself.  However, I have a husband who is disabled and is at extraordinarily high risk due to multiple illnesses and is on a ventilator 14-16 hours a day.  I am his only caregiver.  I cannot catch this virus or he would have to go to a nursing home, which is a death sentence in itself for him.  I cannot give him this virus or it would surely kill him.  I have been in almost total  isolation with him since March.  I can only go out only very rare occasions to pick up necessities that I cannot get delivered, where I see ignorant people who think that masks are irrelevant.  When a vaccine becomes available, it is doubtful that it will be effective in people our ages.  So I foresee living and dying in this house.  I tell myself there are worse things, because there are.  But we can't give up hope!  It's all we've got, and I keep thinking things will eventually get better.


----------



## penelopejane

beckster51 said:


> I feel everybody's pain these days.  Life as we know it has gone down the tubes.  Some of us are better off than others, but nobody's life is the same, is it?  I try to practice gratitude, but it's difficult at times.  I have enough to eat.  I have a relatively safe place to live.  I am a retired advanced practice nurse, so I am grateful I am no longer in the fray.  I'm lucky that I have the knowledge to understand what is going on and how to reasonably protect myself.  However, I have a husband who is disabled and is at extraordinarily high risk due to multiple illnesses and is on a ventilator 14-16 hours a day.  I am his only caregiver.  I cannot catch this virus or he would have to go to a nursing home, which is a death sentence in itself for him.  I cannot give him this virus or it would surely kill him.  I have been in almost total  isolation with him since March.  I can only go out only very rare occasions to pick up necessities that I cannot get delivered, where I see ignorant people who think that masks are irrelevant.  When a vaccine becomes available, it is doubtful that it will be effective in people our ages.  So I foresee living and dying in this house.  I tell myself there are worse things, because there are.  But we can't give up hope!  It's all we've got, and I keep thinking things will eventually get better.


I am so sorry to hear of your troubles. I’m doing deepak chopra’s 21 days of abundance meditations (free on you tube) and find it helpful. I’m doing it in a group and am being sent the tasks as well. PM me if you think that would be helpful for you.

I think the vaccine (when it comes) will protect all ages. The flu and pneumonia vaccines are effective for all ages. But I’m not a nurse like you so maybe overly optimistic.

Sending you my very best wishes and thoughts. 
PJ


----------



## raymondlgraham

There are those that believe that wearing a mask does absolutely nothing to alter the infection rate of Covid 19.  If this virus is aerosol driven then they might be right.  If you can breath through a mask and the virus might be aerosol driven this means that the virus being .123 microns in diameter will pass through most masks.   It could then linger in a room with low humidity and mild air currents perhaps for several hours just waiting to attach itself to anyone who comes into that room.  Places this is more likely to occur would be places where a person might be expected to spend a considerable amount of time there, for example, a restaurant, or a hair saloon or a doctors office or a barber shop, etc.  Until more is understood about the transmission of this disease it is just a guess if mask really do any good.  Psychologically we might derive a placebo effect from wearing them but until hard studies are done it just a guess if they work at all but you can bet certain people will insist we wear them because they do represent control and that is what many are seeking to get from them anyway.


----------



## goat soap rulz!

shunt2011 said:


> Facebook has become a huge dumpster fire of hate.


I refuse to download facebook for this reason! I have never seen a more hateful group of people! 



shunt2011 said:


> Wear a darn mask. Quit whining. Have some compassion.


YES! I see all of these videos of people SCREAMING at poor essential workers that " MY DOCTOR SAID I CANT WEAR A MASK BECAUSE I HAVE A BREATHING PROBLEM!!!" 
Ok honey first of all, if you can scream, and yell, and throw a tantrum, then I think your lungs can handle a mask over your face. 
And 2: If you have a breathing problem, then you SHOULD be afraid of a deadly virus that attacks the respiratory system. I mean... RIGHT? 

*sigh* some people really get on my nerves... Like makes me want to punch them in the face... repeatedly LOL! 

We went to the hardware store about a week ago, because my mom wants to paint the cabinets. we have a small little family owned hardware store. They are sweet people. But literally NO ONE was wearing a mask. I won't lie, if nobody was in the store, id take mine off, because they are a bit annoying, but when someone walks up to me, I'm going to put it on! If they are respecting me by wearing a mask, then I will respect them!

Kind of a funny story though, my mask had a little piece of string on the inside, and it kept going up my nose and tickling it. We were in the toilet paper aisle and I sneezed, and everybody moved away from me so fast! I am not a shy person, so I was like "Hey yall, it's fine! There's a little rebel piece of string trying to crawl up my nose!" Everybody gave out a little chuckle lol! That's all people need right now. Human interaction. GOOD human interaction!


----------



## beckster51

penelopejane said:


> I am so sorry to hear of your troubles. I’m doing deepak chopra’s 21 days of abundance meditations (free on you tube) and find it helpful. I’m doing it in a group and am being sent the tasks as well. PM me if you think that would be helpful for you.
> 
> I think the vaccine (when it comes) will protect all ages. The flu and pneumonia vaccines are effective for all ages. But I’m not a nurse like you so maybe overly optimistic.
> 
> Sending you my very best wishes and thoughts.
> PJ


I re-read my message, and I guess it sounded like I was whining.  I didn't mean it that way.  I was just trying to convey that everyone is struggling and that all struggles are different, but nonetheless, struggles.  My husband always says there are no minor illnesses if they are your own, and I think that applies to many things in life.

Thanks for the recommendation for the meditation.  I have meditated off and on for years, but I find it difficult to meditate lately.  I just need to deploy some discipline! I will look it up on youtube.

Older people have less responsive immune systems in general, and that is why the high dose flu vaccines have been developed.  The regular flu vaccines don't create much of an immune response in older populations.  They do activate your immune system to a degree, which helps, but they often don't create the mass of antibodies that are specific to the viruses represented in the vaccine.  It may be awhile before they have an effective Covid-19 vaccine that works for us old grunts - LOL.  Nevertheless, I will take it whenever it appears and hope for the best.

Thank you for your kind words and thoughts, PJ.  They help!


----------



## Adobehead

Catscankim said:


> I dunno. This might be out of my skillset. I do quilting, never followed a hat pattern before lol.


 
You can do it! Necessity is the mother of invention, and you are creative to begin with or you wouldn't be here.  I hope you get relief.


----------



## Catscankim

beckster51 said:


> I would suggest that you think about getting one of those adapters that let's you fasten your mask on the back of your head. If I had to wear a mask all day, my ears would be so sore that I could not wear my glasses.  The skin behind the ears is so tender!  You could probably make them yourself or find them cheaper.  This is just the first version I found when googling.  Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This item is unavailable - Etsy
> 
> 
> Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewelry, and more… lots more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com


I guess somebody else donated boxes of these clips today. I grabbed one and i must say that it is brilliant!!

you cant use it for the n95, but they dont go behind your ears anyway. Its the surgical mask on top that bothers me.

Thanks for the suggestion, i might not have grabbed one if i didnt see your post

You do have to fiddle with it a bit getting it on, but its worth it!

We are out of Rapid covid tests again. They used to take 30 minutes for results, The new “rapid“ takes 4 hours.

My er doc tonight (who freaks out about everything) called me and says...”i know bed 20 is listed as covid precautions, but shes really not. I think she has a PE so i need you to take her right away” (we usually wait for the test, or treat the like covid if its a real emergency).

ok, so you have her in a covid room, she desats to 50% on room air, and you placed her under isolation precautions, so im not supposed to treat her as covid why? She did not pass the front door because the screeners determined she was a covid risk.

Because of a hunch And/or you dont want to wait for the now 4 hour test.

Basically shes risking everybodys health because she wants to rule out something else while we wait for this other test to come back.

Of course her PE test was negative, and of course she had ground glass opacities, and OF COURSE her covid was positive. Glad i went with my gut. I was so mad...

She later saw me in the er...omg i hope you had an n95 on for bed 20, she came back positive. I lost it on her.

AND i should add that if i did not treat her as covid, i would have scanned numerous patients after her.... i was furious.


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> I guess somebody else donated boxes of these clips today. I grabbed one and i must say that it is brilliant!!
> 
> you cant use it for the n95, but they dont go behind your ears anyway. Its the surgical mask on top that bothers me.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion, i might not have grabbed one if i didnt see your post
> 
> You do have to fiddle with it a bit getting it on, but its worth it!
> 
> We are out of Rapid covid tests again. They used to take 30 minutes for results, The new “rapid“ takes 4 hours.
> 
> My er doc tonight (who freaks out about everything) called me and says...”i know bed 20 is listed as covid precautions, but shes really not. I think she has a PE so i need you to take her right away” (we usually wait for the test, or treat the like covid if its a real emergency).
> 
> ok, so you have her in a covid room, she desats to 50% on room air, and you placed her under isolation precautions, so im not supposed to treat her as covid why? She did not pass the front door because the screeners determined she was a covid risk.
> 
> Because of a hunch And/or you dont want to wait for the now 4 hour test.
> 
> Basically shes risking everybodys health because she wants to rule out something else while we wait for this other test to come back.
> 
> Of course her PE test was negative, and of course she had ground glass opacities, and OF COURSE her covid was positive. Glad i went with my gut. I was so mad...
> 
> She later saw me in the er...omg i hope you had an n95 on for bed 20, she came back positive. I lost it on her.
> 
> AND i should add that if i did not treat her as covid, i would have scanned numerous patients after her.... i was furious.


Glad the mask extender worked for you.  Hooray!  Small victories.  And you are smart to treat everyone as positive until proven negative.  I can't imagine why anyone in the ED wouldn't.  Keep using your brain, Catscankim, even when those around you get careless.


----------



## GemstonePony

One of my sisters went to the Emergency Room with COVID symptoms, including low oxygen. She was told by the doctors there that she could assume it was COVID based on her symptoms. However, her symptoms were not considered severe enough to be life threatening, so she did not qualify for hospitalization or a COVID test. She was told to go home and quarantine with her family, including a 2 year old who was born with half his heart missing (that's why she had equipment to check her oxygen levels in the first place).
That was a couple months ago, she's been symptom free for a while, and fortunately nobody else developed symptoms.
At this point the only numbers I pay attention to are the death toll above average, because I don't feel like I can rely on the other numbers.
I had a virus with a lot of COVID symptoms early in the year, but nobody in the US was testing for it then. I didn't feel like spending $200 for a Dr. tell me to go home and drink fluids (I'm 27), so there's nothing in my medical records indicating I had symptoms for an antibody test, either.


----------



## Catscankim

They tell you to self quarantine at home unless your symptoms are severe to save beds for bad cases. Things are different every single day, and with every patient. We dont even have covid rooms available right now (even though our commercials say we do).

in the beginning there were hardly any covid tests. Then they were widely available, now we dont have any again.

but i thought you could get an antibody test if you thought you were exposed. But that could be todays rule and not tomorrows....everything literally changes daily.


----------



## GemstonePony

Oh, I absolutely understand the reasons for it all, but those reasons still impact the numbers. I'm not mad about the stuff I posted, I'm just sad because I'm the type of person who really likes crunching and being able to rely on numbers. I mean, there are a LOT of things I'm pretty mad about, because -ya know this is the wrong thread and I'm not starting the right one- but I understand nonexistent and limited resources.


----------



## Catscankim

We have a pediatric emergency room in our hospital. I got an order for a kid who was listed under covid isolation precautions. The nurse called me to reassure me that he was anything but covid...the test triggers the isolation order.

So i told her, i just scanned FIVE super sick actual covid patients and have another one on the way, then i need to get my room cleaned and its going to be at least an hour, especially if this kid isnt covid...im not comfortable bringing him in my now contaminated room. We have two scanners, but the other one was waiting to be cleaned as well.

Finally i get this kid. Mom is a jerk cause shes mad that it took so long. Im dying in my ppe, and shes yelling at me.

i says ma’am, it took so long because i needed to sanitize the room. Shes like Well i BETTER NOT catch corona while trying to get us tested for corona.

Isnt that the statement of the century. Stay home lady or get tested at a drive through.


----------



## DKing

@Catscankim   do you know how long it is taking for results for your tests down in Florida?  My daughter and her boyfriend were tested on Monday and won't have results for another day or so.  That seems like a really long time to wait for something like this, or am I wrong?


----------



## Catscankim

DKing said:


> @Catscankim   do you know how long it is taking for results for your tests down in Florida?  My daughter and her boyfriend were tested on Monday and won't have results for another day or so.  That seems like a really long time to wait for something like this, or am I wrong?


Our hospital Rapid tests were taking only 30 minutes. We ran out this week, so now we have this other in-house test that takes 4-48 hours to process. From my understanding (and i have asked lots of questions today), is that it takes 4 hours to process, but they do it in batches. You might be part of batch #1, or batch #3 etc... Batch #3 will be 12 hours as opposed to the first batch. It took me a minute to process this, but i came up with, if you only have one soap mold then you have to wait 12 hours to unmold your soap before you can make your next batch of soap lol.

This isnt the same as the send out test that goes to an outside lab...which takes days, but is more accurate for some reason. So if its taking days for you, you have a send out lab. Personally, if i had a swab shoved up my nose, i would rather have it right the first time with the good test even if it meant that i had to wait longer. I dont know what the difference is between the two tests.

edit....also remember that i work in radiology. I just ask lots of questions at work. But im not an expert


----------



## DKing

Catscankim said:


> Our hospital Rapid tests were taking only 30 minutes. We ran out this week, so now we have this other in-house test that takes 4-48 hours to process. From my understanding (and i have asked lots of questions today), is that it takes 4 hours to process, but they do it in batches. You might be part of batch #1, or batch #3 etc... Batch #3 will be 12 hours as opposed to the first batch. It took me a minute to process this, but i came up with, if you only have one soap mold then you have to wait 12 hours to unmold your soap before you can make your next batch of soap lol.
> 
> This isnt the same as the send out test that goes to an outside lab...which takes days, but is more accurate for some reason. So if its taking days for you, you have a send out lab. Personally, if i had a swab shoved up my nose, i would rather have it right the first time with the good test even if it meant that i had to wait longer. I dont know what the difference is between the two tests.


I too would prefer the more accurate test as well!  Hopefully they are both fine but there has been a big cluster of cases in our city due to tourists coming for the Canada Day long weekend.  Over 70 so far confirmed, but with test results taking several days to determine, I have to assume it is significantly higher now.   I will feel better when she is able to tell me she has a negative result!


----------



## Catscankim

Do they have symptoms?


----------



## DKing

Catscankim said:


> Do they have symptoms?


My daughter has been really tired and sleeping a lot but she is also emotionally worn out by her boyfriend currently so it could be just that.  It is more her boyfriend that felt like he was coming down with something viral, but it might be in his head too.  He also ended up having a massive panic attack and had to go to the hospital for a few hours until they could calm him down.  He has some mental health issues and they seem to be getting extra triggered right now.  He works in the downtown core where most of these cases originated so his imagination might be causing him to over analyze everything he is feeling.  My daughter never told me what he felt were his symptoms, just that he felt he was getting sick.


----------



## Cosmo71

I live in a small, rural town.  Cornonovirus seems imaginary to me even though my 91 year old aunt got it and recovered.  I live in a tourist area and people are still coming in droves though they waited until June instead of May to start touring this year.  I am concerned about my child returning to school in the fall and am unsure what I will do when the vaccine is available.  I feel like people, companies and the government are using the coronavirus to push their own agendas and it is frustrating...but perhaps it is everyone just doing what they feel is right to be safe because I am so remote...I just don't get it.


----------



## Misschief

DKing said:


> @Catscankim   do you know how long it is taking for results for your tests down in Florida?  My daughter and her boyfriend were tested on Monday and won't have results for another day or so.  That seems like a really long time to wait for something like this, or am I wrong?



I do know that here in Kelowna, some if not all of the tests are sent out to Vancouver for testing. One of our customers is a private courier driver and his company drives there daily with Covid tests (properly packaged and stored, obviously).


----------



## DKing

Misschief said:


> I do know that here in Kelowna, some if not all of the tests are sent out to Vancouver for testing. One of our customers is a private courier driver and his company drives there daily with Covid tests (properly packaged and stored, obviously).


That is obviously why it is taking so long.  You would think that there would be some labs locally that could handle it?  It certainly makes me uncomfortable that we are several days behind knowing just how many people are currently affected.  At least those being tested are being told to go into quarantine until they know the results of their tests.  I just hope that everyone being tested is respecting that expectation.

How are you doing?  Still going out shopping?  I am staying home for awhile other than some veggies.


----------



## DKing

My daughter and her boyfriend got their results.  Both negative.  phew!


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> Do they have symptoms?


Hi Catscankim, I live in Port St Lucie (on the treasure coast) and I'm a registered nurse.  Where in Florida are you located?


----------



## Misschief

DKing said:


> That is obviously why it is taking so long.  You would think that there would be some labs locally that could handle it?  It certainly makes me uncomfortable that we are several days behind knowing just how many people are currently affected.  At least those being tested are being told to go into quarantine until they know the results of their tests.  I just hope that everyone being tested is respecting that expectation.
> 
> How are you doing?  Still going out shopping?  I am staying home for awhile other than some veggies.


I'll go out if I need to but I'm taking it easy. I do still have to go to work and I'm noticing that more of our customers are wearing masks. We've been warned by the market organizers that they may pull the plug if they deem it necessary but at this point, we're still going ahead.


----------



## DKing

Misschief said:


> I'll go out if I need to but I'm taking it easy. I do still have to go to work and I'm noticing that more of our customers are wearing masks. We've been warned by the market organizers that they may pull the plug if they deem it necessary but at this point, we're still going ahead.


it is a bit of a roller coaster ride.  I was starting to feel like the Interior was really fortunate and we might not have any true concerns when it came to the virus.  I too have noticed more people wearing masks, so hopefully that continues.  I think that the contact tracing is being taken seriously so anyone at risk would have been told to be in self quarantine until they know if they have the virus.  Stay safe at work!!


----------



## raymondlgraham

Ben Gurion University in Israel has a doctor there that has developed a Breathalyzer test much like the one that tells if your drunk or not.....but this one can detect the Covid19 virus with a 90% accuracy rate.  And you can get the results in 1 minute.  Now this has been known for some time now.  Wonder why our mainstream media isn't telling you about this.  I called one of our local TV stations Yesterday and informed them of this and told them I would like to see something about this on the TV News.  Tonight that local TV Station ran a blip about it, even showing the product being used.  That local station was the only one I have seen show or say anything about this product.  The National mainstream media haven't shown anything about it nor have the other local stations.  How is it that an average citizen could know more about this than all the mainstream media networks?  Do they really want to stop this pandemic?  It sure does make me wonder.  The interesting aspect about all this is if the virus is detected early, like in the first 6 days you can prescribe Hydroxychloroquine, with a Z-Pack and Zinc and it can save 50% of those that might otherwise not survive.  But it's critical that the treatment needs to be started in the first six days.  The problem now, the FDA won't permit the prescription of Hydroxychloroquine until a positive diagnosis has been made and with the test they are using now it can take a week to get the results back.  That is too long for the meds to be of any use.  That's why this breathalyzer test is so important.  You would think that our medical people would want to know this if they really want to stop this virus anytime soon.  I guess the only way they will know about this advancement in testing for the virus is if people like you and me get the word out and ask your news media to cover this information.  Maybe just maybe you will help in saving some lives.   I did my part here.  I hope you will do your part too.  You can vet this information by Googling Breathalyzer Test at Ben Gurion University to detect Covid19.


----------



## DeeAnna

Here is an updated map of the current covid-19 hotspots in the US as of today. Uncolored areas are regions with no data. 

Source: The New York Times, Coronavirus in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count (login required) --


----------



## Catscankim

raymondlgraham said:


> Ben Gurion University in Israel has a doctor there that has developed a Breathalyzer test much like the one that tells if your drunk or not.....but this one can detect the Covid19 virus with a 90% accuracy rate.  And you can get the results in 1 minute.  Now this has been known for some time now.  Wonder why our mainstream media isn't telling you about this.  I called one of our local TV stations Yesterday and informed them of this and told them I would like to see something about this on the TV News.  Tonight that local TV Station ran a blip about it, even showing the product being used.  That local station was the only one I have seen show or say anything about this product.  The National mainstream media haven't shown anything about it nor have the other local stations.  How is it that an average citizen could know more about this than all the mainstream media networks?  Do they really want to stop this pandemic?  It sure does make me wonder.  The interesting aspect about all this is if the virus is detected early, like in the first 6 days you can prescribe Hydroxychloroquine, with a Z-Pack and Zinc and it can save 50% of those that might otherwise not survive.  But it's critical that the treatment needs to be started in the first six days.  The problem now, the FDA won't permit the prescription of Hydroxychloroquine until a positive diagnosis has been made and with the test they are using now it can take a week to get the results back.  That is too long for the meds to be of any use.  That's why this breathalyzer test is so important.  You would think that our medical people would want to know this if they really want to stop this virus anytime soon.  I guess the only way they will know about this advancement in testing for the virus is if people like you and me get the word out and ask your news media to cover this information.  Maybe just maybe you will help in saving some lives.   I did my part here.  I hope you will do your part too.  You can vet this information by Googling Breathalyzer Test at Ben Gurion University to detect Covid19.


I just googled it. I have never heard of it. I am gonna post to one of my groups.

i wonder why this isnt out in the open? So many times i have heard drs hashing back and forth about the proper treatment etc, and never had i heard mention of this.



linne1gi said:


> Hi Catscankim, I live in Port St Lucie (on the treasure coast) and I'm a registered nurse.  Where in Florida are you located?


I am in port st lucie lol.


----------



## raymondlgraham

*








						Israeli scientist invents one-minute coronavirus breath test
					

***




					www.haaretz.com
				



*
Haaretz.com                                                                 >                                                                            Science & Health                                       

*Israeli Scientist Invents One-minute Coronavirus Breath Test *
        Breakthrough device invented at Ben-Gurion University could reach market within months; meanwhile normal speech sprays infectious droplets that can remain in the air for up to 8 minutes, doctors warn

Now, *Prof. Gabby Sarusi* of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev, Be’er Sheva, has invented an almost instantaneous, affordable breath test for SARS-CoV-2 (Covid19) based on spectroscopy, which outputs the positive or negative result in less than 1 minute – and even as little as 20 seconds – the university announced Wednesday.

The above link will take you to the story and it's a story you probably ought to know about.


----------



## alex777

With Coronavirus, you should be careful about how you 'boost' your immune system. The deadly part of this virus is the cytokine storm that it can cause, which is basically your immune system going haywire trying to fight the virus and turning against you. Using an immune booster during this period of infection is basically throwing gasoline on a fire.

My focus has been more on immune modulators like Vitamin D3, which helps to prevent the cytokine storm, among other things. Another focus is Zinc here which helps to prevent viral replication.


----------



## rdc1978

Megan said:


> The issue is, deaths lag behind infections. So infection rates are going to go up (as we are seeing), and then 2-4 weeks later, we are likely to see an increase in the death rate. This is especially going to be true in places like Florida, where ICU capacity is being maxed out.
> 
> The current administration's rhetoric on the death rate going down means nothing...and will mean nothing until the pandemic is over and we can actually see the case fatality ratio. If infections continue to increase, and mortality continues to fall...then I might be more convinced. Hopefully this can become the case, but to claim this has already happened is foolish.
> 
> Plus, it has been estimated, in a well controlled scenario (for instance S.Korea), the actual mortality rate of Covid-19 is anywhere from .2-1%...yet we are seeing an average death rate of 8% in the US...and 7% in Sweden for the people saying they did so well...and there are people who have the gall to claim (and continue to claim) we are doing so well in fighting the pandemic.
> 
> Even mortality rate aside...there are people who will have life altering complications from Covid. So they don't die, but they have irreversible scarring in their lungs, or nerve damage, or a host of other issues. Yet people still gripe about having to wear a mask...and grown adults are having temper tantrums when Costco is denying them entry for not following the rules.



I think this last part is being dangerously and purposefully ignored.  I don't think enough time has lapsed to really study long term effects but the anecdotal data suggests that the residual effects for survivors can be particularly bad. 

Anecdotally I can say that after having only a mild form of pneumonia my lung capacity never fully came.back.  so I can see where someone who had a much more serious pulmonary situation could have long term effects. 

My friend who had had a probable case of coronavirus early on before her state had enough tests says she continues to feel the effects even after she "recovered"

So yeah, I agree that it's not as black and white as the death rate.

I think there are a subset of people who are young and fairly healthy who feel like it's not a big deal if they get coronavirus because they probably aren't going to die, but they don't realize that there is likely a real risk of long term effects and I think if they knew that they might be more careful.  Much of the messaging has been that you either die or you fully recover.  

Technically this is probably fair because there is mostly only anecdotal information about lingering residual effects, but I think some of these kids are heading to packed pool parties and bars without understanding that the risk isn't just death or a few days of being sick. The risk could also be these lingering, residual effects.


----------



## MGM

raymondlgraham said:


> Ben Gurion University in Israel has a doctor there that has developed a Breathalyzer test much like the one that tells if your drunk or not..... You can vet this information by Googling Breathalyzer Test at Ben Gurion University to detect Covid19.


I did see this reported a while back, but it seems that it's not just the mainstream media that's hiding it.....you'd think that Ben-Gurion University would want to make this information known! Do we know why they're not publicizing their own research? I wonder if perhaps the subsequent trials were not as successful. After all, the initial sample was only 120 people--and neither peer-reviewed nor published, I don't think--so perhaps the ongoing results didn't hold up.


----------



## Megan

MGM said:


> I did see this reported a while back, but it seems that it's not just the mainstream media that's hiding it.....you'd think that Ben-Gurion University would want to make this information known! Do we know why they're not publicizing their own research? I wonder if perhaps the subsequent trials were not as successful. After all, the initial sample was only 120 people--and neither peer-reviewed nor published, I don't think--so perhaps the ongoing results didn't hold up.


They say it's economical...but the other sources I've read about similar tech (in France) they mention that it's too costly for widespread use.


----------



## MGM

Megan said:


> They say it's economical...but the other sources I've read about similar tech (in France) they mention that it's too costly for widespread use.


Actually, it looks like it's not a conspiracy keeping it down...it's capitalism!!

*However, investment and development are likely to be significantly slowed by a legal battle regarding the IP of the invention now being waged between BGU’s tech-transfer company and The Ram Group conglomerate.*

*10 ways Israeli scientists are improving corona testing*


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Tickets have been purchased. Necessary documentation has been sent to my mom. Now we just need to keep her virus-free until she gets here in just under 2 weeks. The county she lives in has been reporting 100 or so new cases a day for the past few days. She asked if we wanted her to bring anything over. I told her to stay out of the stores! There is nothing I want her to buy if it means possible exposure and a cancelled trip.


----------



## Megan

@MarnieSoapien Best wishes for her health and safe travels!


----------



## mishmish

There have been lots of recent studies that debunk the hydroxychloroquin/z-pack/zinc treatment. If it really worked, all doctors would be prescribing it and it wouldn't be a controversial treatment (unless you susbcribe to conspiracy theories). I don't understand how an antibiotic is supposed to help a viral infection - I've always been told that antibiotics have no effect on corona viruses.


----------



## Megan

mishmish said:


> There have been lots of recent studies that debunk the hydroxychloroquin/z-pack/zinc treatment. If it really worked, all doctors would be prescribing it and it wouldn't be a controversial treatment (unless you susbcribe to conspiracy theories). I don't understand how an antibiotic is supposed to help a viral infection - I've always been told that antibiotics have no effect on corona viruses.


I sort of understand the HCQ, because it is immunosupressive, how (if it didn't have deadly side effects) they thought it_ might_ be beneficial for dampening the cytokine storm. Obviously there has been evidence to contraindicate the use now...but it does make theoretical sense (if you had no evidence based data).

That being said, I am 100% sick of the conspiracy theories and the constant touting of this "miracle cure".


----------



## atiz

MarnieSoapien said:


> Tickets have been purchased. Necessary documentation has been sent to my mom. Now we just need to keep her virus-free until she gets here in just under 2 weeks. The county she lives in has been reporting 100 or so new cases a day for the past few days. She asked if we wanted her to bring anything over. I told her to stay out of the stores! There is nothing I want her to buy if it means possible exposure and a cancelled trip.


Oh that's so great, hope all goes well!
My parents are in Europe and I have been really worried that if anything happens I can't go home to help (and they can't visit here either).


----------



## GORONK

dixiedragon said:


> Interestingly, measles is much more contagious than corona virus. It can survive up to 2 hrs in the air. Vs corona which requires close contact, such as an infected person sneezing or coughing on you.
> 
> Response To Nation’s 1st Coronavirus Case Draws On Lessons From Measles Outbreak


Due to people quarantined and not going out measles has had a resurgence globally. Polio has also come back.


----------



## penelopejane




----------



## MGM

GORONK said:


> Due to people quarantined and not going out measles has had a resurgence globally. Polio has also come back.


Polio and measles are caused by lack of contagion? That is definitely a new theory to me!


----------



## earlene

No, not lack of contagion, but lack of vaccinations and more exposure within the confined family units perhaps.   For measles, anyway.  As far as I am aware, polio does remain a problem in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but again, that is related to inadequate vaccination.

However, there is a real risk for all whose preventative healthcare is compromised/interupted/post-poned because so many of us are not able to seek routine healthcare during this time.


----------



## Megan

MGM said:


> Polio and measles are caused by lack of contagion? That is definitely a new theory to me!



Here's a good article explaining the recent increase in outbreaks:








						Polio vaccination campaigns restart after modelers warn about risk of ‘explosive' outbreaks
					

Eradication drives were suspended worldwide in March to prevent spread of COVID-19




					www.sciencemag.org
				






earlene said:


> No, not lack of contagion, but lack of vaccinations and more exposure within the confined family units perhaps. For measles, anyway. As far as I am aware, polio does remain a problem in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but again, that is related to inadequate vaccination.



Vaccination efforts for polio were (and I think for the most part still are) on hold as well because it wasn't known if it was worse to risk spreading COVID. It also doesn't help that in these countries there is a problem with vaccine refusal (although you can say the same thing about here and measles so...) and outright bans on the vaccine by certain factions. There are issues with vaccine derived outbreaks as well.


----------



## MGM

Megan said:


> Vaccination efforts for polio were (and I think for the most part still are) on hold as well because it wasn't known if it was worse to risk spreading COVID. It also doesn't help that in these countries there is a problem with vaccine refusal (although you can say the same thing about here and measles so...) and outright bans on the vaccine by certain factions. There are issues with vaccine derived outbreaks as well.


Yeah I didn't want to actually say the v-word. Spending more time with your family? Doesn't cause polio or measles. Not getting a vaccination and spending time with anyone other than your cat? Increases risks of both.


----------



## raymondlgraham

mishmish said:


> There have been lots of recent studies that debunk the hydroxychloroquine  z-pack/zinc treatment. If it really worked, all doctors would be prescribing it and it wouldn't be a controversial treatment (unless you subscribe to conspiracy theories). I don't understand how an antibiotic is supposed to help a viral infection - I've always been told that antibiotics have no effect on corona viruses.


You must have missed my earlier post.  hydroxychloroquine  /z-pack and /zinc treatment does work but it has to be administered in the first 6 days to be effective.  The FDA has a requirement that a Positive Test has to be done first before the Hydroxychloroquine can be prescribed.  That posses a problem with the current test.  It can take over a week to get the results back.  By that time its too late to get the good results you want from hydroxychloroquine /z-pack and /zinc treatment.  Hydroxychloroquine has been classified as a safe drug for 65 years.  They use it to treat Malaria, LUPUS and Arthritis. It wasn't until President Trump mentioned it that it got demonized.  Many doctors in other countries have been using it with Z-Pack and Zinc for early treatment with success.  They don't have an FDA that says they need a positive test result first to prescribe it.  They say this combination when administered early reduces the death rate by 50%.  These are front line doctors and not Administrators like Dr. Fauci.  The virus connects to the cell with its sharp prongs and then enters the cell where it begins the process of duplicating itself.  Zinc will kill the virus but it can't get through the cell wall to get at it.  However Hydroxychloroquine can make an opening in the cell that allows the zinc into the cell to kill the virus.  The purpose of the Z-Pack is to clean up any bacteria that might be present to prevent bacterial infection since Z-pack  is an antibiotic and it doesn't kill the virus itself.  That is the purpose of the three drug combo.  But the Breathalyzer test that was recently developed in Israel allows 90% accurate test results in 1 Minute.  That is even a higher accuracy rate than what they are using now and its light years faster.  So, don't strike out hydroxychloroquine  /z-pack  and /zinc treatment just yet.  Even with our 7 league boots we are required to wear in fighting this virus it might be sooner than you think that they will do a reversal on this treatment due to the Breathalyzer test soon becoming available.  Therapeutics might hold a better promise for treatment than any vaccine.  An who can say just how safe a vaccine would be anyhow.   And therapeutics  just might already be available.


----------



## LilyJo

raymondlgraham said:


> You must have missed my earlier post.  hydroxychloroquine  /z-pack and /zinc treatment does work but it has to be administered in the first 6 days to be effective.  The FDA has a requirement that a Positive Test has to be done first before the Hydroxychloroquine can be prescribed.  That posses a problem with the current test.  It can take over a week to get the results back.  By that time its too late to get the good results you want from hydroxychloroquine /z-pack and /zinc treatment.  Hydroxychloroquine has been classified as a safe drug for 65 years.  They use it to treat Malaria, LUPUS and Arthritis. It wasn't until President Trump mentioned it that it got demonized.  Many doctors in other countries have been using it with Z-Pack and Zinc for early treatment with success.  They don't have an FDA that says they need a positive test result first to prescribe it.  They say this combination when administered early reduces the death rate by 50%.  These are front line doctors and not Administrators like Dr. Fauci.  The virus connects to the cell with its sharp prongs and then enters the cell where it begins the process of duplicating itself.  Zinc will kill the virus but it can't get through the cell wall to get at it.  However Hydroxychloroquine can make an opening in the cell that allows the zinc into the cell to kill the virus.  The purpose of the Z-Pack is to clean up any bacteria that might be present to prevent bacterial infection since Z-pack  is an antibiotic and it doesn't kill the virus itself.  That is the purpose of the three drug combo.  But the Breathalyzer test that was recently developed in Israel allows 90% accurate test results in 1 Minute.  That is even a higher accuracy rate than what they are using now and its light years faster.  So, don't strike out hydroxychloroquine  /z-pack  and /zinc treatment just yet.  Even with our 7 league boots we are required to wear in fighting this virus it might be sooner than you think that they will do a reversal on this treatment due to the Breathalyzer test soon becoming available.  Therapeutics might hold a better promise for treatment than any vaccine.  An who can say just how safe a vaccine would be anyhow.   And therapeutics  just might already be available.



There is so much in this that I want to disagree with but I am loathe to do so without evidence.  Can you provide a link to which countries are using this successfully?

As far as I understand the breathalyser test is not ready for approval for lots of reasons inc cost and until it is we need to get on with what we have.

We need better,faster testing. Better and more therapeutics.

And we all need to wear a mask (or whatever face covering we can).


----------



## MGM

LilyJo said:


> Can you provide a link to which countries are using this successfully?



[            crickets                                  ]


----------



## penelopejane

raymondlgraham said:


> You must have missed my earlier post.  hydroxychloroquine  /z-pack and /zinc treatment does work but it has to be administered in the first 6 days to be effective.  The FDA has a requirement that a Positive Test has to be done first before the Hydroxychloroquine can be prescribed.  That posses a problem with the current test.  It can take over a week to get the results back.  By that time its too late to get the good results you want from hydroxychloroquine /z-pack and /zinc treatment.  Hydroxychloroquine has been classified as a safe drug for 65 years.  They use it to treat Malaria, LUPUS and Arthritis. It wasn't until President Trump mentioned it that it got demonized.  Many doctors in other countries have been using it with Z-Pack and Zinc for early treatment with success.  They don't have an FDA that says they need a positive test result first to prescribe it.  They say this combination when administered early reduces the death rate by 50%.  These are front line doctors and not Administrators like Dr. Fauci.  The virus connects to the cell with its sharp prongs and then enters the cell where it begins the process of duplicating itself.  Zinc will kill the virus but it can't get through the cell wall to get at it.  However Hydroxychloroquine can make an opening in the cell that allows the zinc into the cell to kill the virus.  The purpose of the Z-Pack is to clean up any bacteria that might be present to prevent bacterial infection since Z-pack  is an antibiotic and it doesn't kill the virus itself.  That is the purpose of the three drug combo.  But the Breathalyzer test that was recently developed in Israel allows 90% accurate test results in 1 Minute.  That is even a higher accuracy rate than what they are using now and its light years faster.  So, don't strike out hydroxychloroquine  /z-pack  and /zinc treatment just yet.  Even with our 7 league boots we are required to wear in fighting this virus it might be sooner than you think that they will do a reversal on this treatment due to the Breathalyzer test soon becoming available.  Therapeutics might hold a better promise for treatment than any vaccine.  An who can say just how safe a vaccine would be anyhow.   And therapeutics  just might already be available.


The “results” of US testing were not accurate as double blind testing wasn’t done. Most countries have a similar body to the FDA approving drugs. Ours is the TGA. 








						Recovery trial for Covid-19 treatments: what we know so far
					

The biggest randomised controlled trial of drugs against Covid-19 in the world is already producing results




					www.google.com.au


----------



## Lin19687

Stay tuned as this C-19 just keeps getting better.
In mass where the Veterans home had so many sick and die, one person who was sick (confirmed) recovered and now just got sick again, positive with C-19.

Like I had said before, if the world would just stop for 3 weeks we would have had this in a semi checkmate.  At least if the US had totally shut for 3 weeks we would be closer to that.

On a happy/sad note, C-19 gave me a new job with OT every week and a healthy rate of pay.  SO I have not been on here lately, nor soaping


----------



## Megan

Lin19687 said:


> Stay tuned as this C-19 just keeps getting better.
> In mass where the Veterans home had so many sick and die, one person who was sick (confirmed) recovered and now just got sick again, positive with C-19.
> 
> Like I had said before, if the world would just stop for 3 weeks we would have had this in a semi checkmate.  At least if the US had totally shut for 3 weeks we would be closer to that.
> 
> On a happy/sad note, C-19 gave me a new job with OT every week and a healthy rate of pay.  SO I have not been on here lately, nor soaping


Stories like this don't instill a lot of confidence in me that a vaccine will work.


----------



## Marsi

city victoria australia is at stage 4 lockdown, news this morning was about food shortages, the government has limited staff in the food supply chain  police and armed forced are enforcing curfew, noone can leave their home before 5am or after 8pm, the fines are up to 20 thousand for someone out a second time (for "particularly selfish behaviour" was the way this was announced by the premier)
*edited
one person per household is allowed out to shop most shops are closed except for supermarkets pharmacies and a few essential shops shopping is limited to the nearest shop or under 5km from home and for no more than one hour
supermarkets are limiting purchases








						Supermarket warns of national food shortages
					

A major supermarket is warning about food shortages triggering panic buying across Australia and shoppers could soon face renewed purchasing restrictions amid fears Victoria’s stage four lockdown will severely disrupt supply chains.




					www.news.com.au
				



I was talking to my local this morning - where she is from the supermarket is having trouble getting enough stock and she said they have been out of meat and fresh vegetables for days


----------



## beckster51

Marsi said:


> city victoria australia is at stage 4 lockdown
> 
> news this morning was about food shortages
> the government has limited staff in the food supply chain
> 
> police and armed forced are enforcing curfew
> noone can leave their home before 5am or after 8pm
> the fines are up to 20 thousand for someone out a second time (for "particularly selfish behaviour" was the way this was announced by the premier)
> 
> *edited
> one person per household is allowed out to shop
> most shops are closed except for supermarkets pharmacies and a few essential shops
> shopping is limited to the nearest shop or under 5km from home and for no more than one hour
> 
> supermarkets are limiting purchases
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supermarket warns of national food shortages
> 
> 
> A major supermarket is warning about food shortages triggering panic buying across Australia and shoppers could soon face renewed purchasing restrictions amid fears Victoria’s stage four lockdown will severely disrupt supply chains.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.news.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was talking to my local this morning - where she is from the supermarket is having trouble getting enough stock and she said they have been out of meat and fresh vegetables for days



That food chain problem happened here in the states at the beginning of the first wave.  It was alarming.  We had enough to eat, but it made everyone feel very insecure.  Our food chain was sending a great percentage of food to restaurants, and it took them a while to figure out how to change that and send it to grocery stores.  Once it began to correct itself, hoarding decreased and items became more available, although some things are just impossible to find depending on where you live. Food here has gotten more expensive as a result of the pandemic.
I found I could live without some things that I ate routinely.  I realized I was a spoiled brat from being able to get what I wanted when I wanted it.  It was a reality check for a lot of people.  Unfortunately there is a lot of food insecurity here due to unemployment, but that is different from it being unavailable.
I don't know what it is like where you are, but a lot of restaurants started selling food from their stock.  There was some emergency relaxation of regulations that previously banned that in order to help the restaurants and those unable to find food in groceries.  Something that really helped me was that I found I could get a lot of things straight from the manufacturer online rather than trying to find it lower in the chain.  
Hang in there!  I bet it will get better as they figure it out.  Good luck!


----------



## Marsi

beckster51 said:


> That food chain problem happened here in the states at the beginning of the first wave.  It was alarming.  We had enough to eat, but it made everyone feel very insecure.  Our food chain was sending a great percentage of food to restaurants, and it took them a while to figure out how to change that and send it to grocery stores.  Once it began to correct itself, hoarding decreased and items became more available, although some things are just impossible to find depending on where you live. Food here has gotten more expensive as a result of the pandemic.
> I found I could live without some things that I ate routinely.  I realized I was a spoiled brat from being able to get what I wanted when I wanted it.  It was a reality check for a lot of people.  Unfortunately there is a lot of food insecurity here due to unemployment, but that is different from it being unavailable.
> I don't know what it is like where you are, but a lot of restaurants started selling food from their stock.  There was some emergency relaxation of regulations that previously banned that in order to help the restaurants and those unable to find food in groceries.  Something that really helped me was that I found I could get a lot of things straight from the manufacturer online rather than trying to find it lower in the chain.
> Hang in there!  I bet it will get better as they figure it out.  Good luck!



thank you, it is good to hear that the food chain supply does get better. I did find one fresh food supplier they are using their vans to deliver fresh food to people at home now the restaurants are shut, you are right, buying direct from local growers and manufacturers makes a lot of sense


----------



## Lin19687

I'm just gonna live off PBJ, (I can make my own bread) and mac & Cheese lol
But my cucumbers are going just crazy as I planted small pickle ones.  They have a better taste and I Love the Snap.  damnnn the virus !


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Picked my mom up at the airport today  She's here with us for at least 2 months.


----------



## Catscankim

I listened in on two doctors hashing things over with covid tonight. Apparently the hyperbaric chamber is helpful.

The theory is that it only helps while you are in it, but once you are out, you desat again (oxygen levels go back down). Being in the chamber allows your lungs to keep up a good level of oxygen to help you recover.

Problem is, that there are not that many hyperbaric chambers around. We are like one of two within a 50 mile radius...and im near the coast....ppl get the bends a lot here with diving accidents, so they really get used a lot. I work at both of these hospitals, and havent heard of our chambers being used for covid (One is my ft job, the other is my per diem job).

The hyperbaric chamber is only a theory though. I will do more poking around on this. 

I havent posted any frontline stories lately:

one of our ct techs didnt get paid for being out with covid because “she couldnt prove where she got it”. What kind of crap is that.

They wouldnt test her to begin with, she had to get her own test at a drive thru to find out she was positive.

she was allowed to come back to work without a covid test to say she was negative before returning to work. So yay us Coworkers who get to work in close quarters with her.

our trauma nurse is still out with covid. Its been a month now.

Tonight i walked into the er, and the er doc told me to stay away from the “B” side of our er if i could because they were all covid...rooms 11-22...but then ordered a ct scan on every single one of those patients.

our hospital is offering free testing to first responders, but not us, even if we have symptoms.

our ppe situation seems to be better. I havent had a problem.

one (or more) employees has talked to the media about what its “really like” in the hospital. Wish i could take credit for that.

ER doc told me tonight that she got in trouble for ordering too many rapid covid tests on patients.

Guess thats all i got....


----------



## Elizevt

Catscankim said:


> I talked to one of the ER docs and asked why they keep ordering PE (lung clots) studies on covid patients...apparently ppl with covid develop a clotting disorder and a lot of them are getting either pulmonary embolisms or having strokes as an added bonus.



Hi, there @Catscankim Yes, here in South Africa they are starting to treat Covid19 patients with 2-3 types of blood thinners as Drs are starting to believe covid19 is a more a vascular problem, than a respiratory problem. I'll attach a video below. 
Basically it sounds as if they are saying the lungs work, but the virus causes a cascade of little clots to form in the capillaries around the alveolus, preventing oxygen from being absorbed into the bloodstream.  



My sister works as a pharmacist at the hospital, and she became very ill over the weekend and has been admitted into the hospital on Monday. She is in a tremendous amount of body pain, fever and she can't breathe. She's been on oxygen since Monday.  
We dropped her off on Monday and we have not heard anything from the hospital in 3 days. Its really tough not being able to visit family in the hospital, and then still also not receiving feedback from the hospital about their condition either. 

Just from a few WhatsApp msgs from my sister, It sounds like she is having a very rough day today, 
All we can do is pray for her and wait.


----------



## Megan

Elizevt said:


> Hi, there @Catscankim Yes, here in South Africa they are starting to treat Covid19 patients with 2-3 types of blood thinners as Drs are starting to believe covid19 is a more a vascular problem, than a respiratory problem. I'll attach a video below.
> Basically it sounds as if they are saying the lungs work, but the virus causes a cascade of little clots to form in the capillaries around the alveolus, preventing oxygen from being absorbed into the bloodstream.
> 
> 
> 
> My sister works as a pharmacist at the hospital, and she became very ill over the weekend and has been admitted into the hospital on Monday. She is in a tremendous amount of body pain, fever and she can't breathe. She's been on oxygen since Monday.
> We dropped her off on Monday and we have not heard anything from the hospital in 3 days. Its really tough not being able to visit family in the hospital, and then still also not receiving feedback from the hospital about their condition either.
> 
> Just from a few WhatsApp msgs from my sister, It sounds like she is having a very rough day today,
> All we can do is pray for her and wait.



That is fascinating. I have heard there is a vascular component, but I had thought this was secondary to the other issues. It does make sense if the inflammatory response is going haywire. 

Also, I am so sorry about your sister. Sending positive vibes for healing your/her way.


----------



## peachymoon

Elizevt said:


> Hi, there @Catscankim Yes, here in South Africa they are starting to treat Covid19 patients with 2-3 types of blood thinners as Drs are starting to believe covid19 is a more a vascular problem, than a respiratory problem. I'll attach a video below.
> Basically it sounds as if they are saying the lungs work, but the virus causes a cascade of little clots to form in the capillaries around the alveolus, preventing oxygen from being absorbed into the bloodstream.
> 
> 
> 
> My sister works as a pharmacist at the hospital, and she became very ill over the weekend and has been admitted into the hospital on Monday. She is in a tremendous amount of body pain, fever and she can't breathe. She's been on oxygen since Monday.
> We dropped her off on Monday and we have not heard anything from the hospital in 3 days. Its really tough not being able to visit family in the hospital, and then still also not receiving feedback from the hospital about their condition either.
> 
> Just from a few WhatsApp msgs from my sister, It sounds like she is having a very rough day today,
> All we can do is pray for her and wait.




Hoping for the best for your sister.


----------



## dibbles

@Elizevt I really hope things improve for your sister quickly. Not being with her must be so hard, and the lack of updates on her condition must be awful. Take care of yourself too.


----------



## CatahoulaBubble

My 4 yr old niece contracted covid from a family friend that decided to come and visit my sister's kids when my sister was out of town. The friend and her husband hadn't been practicing social distancing and ended up coming down with Covid-19. She was infected when she was visiting my niece and nephew but didn't know she was sick. Thankfully my nephew didn't get sick and my niece was only hit with mild symptoms of a fever but didn't get any respiratory issues. Her pediatrician has advised my sister to keep an eye on her for any secondary health issues just in case she ends up developing any other complications.


----------



## dibbles

CatahoulaBubble said:


> My 4 yr old niece contracted covid from a family friend that decided to come and visit my sister's kids when my sister was out of town. The friend and her husband hadn't been practicing social distancing and ended up coming down with Covid-19. She was infected when she was visiting my niece and nephew but didn't know she was sick. Thankfully my nephew didn't get sick and my niece was only hit with mild symptoms of a fever but didn't get any respiratory issues. Her pediatrician has advised my sister to keep an eye on her for any secondary health issues just in case she ends up developing any other complications.


I'm glad your niece and nephew ended up being okay, but seriously - some people!


----------



## MarnieSoapien

Over the past month, there has been an increase of cases in Denmark. The country had implemented social distancing rules on public transportation after the lockdown was over but has since rolled those back. We heard from a friend, starting next Saturday masks will be mandatory on all public transportation for anyone over the age of 11. One of my husband's coworkers was nice enough to give us cloth facemasks a few weeks ago but we are going to try to find some that fit our personalities better online.


----------



## Elizevt

Elizevt said:


> My sister works as a pharmacist at the hospital, and she became very ill over the weekend and has been admitted into the hospital on Monday. She is in a tremendous amount of body pain, fever and she can't breathe. She's been on oxygen since Monday.
> We dropped her off on Monday and we have not heard anything from the hospital in 3 days. Its really tough not being able to visit family in the hospital, and then still also not receiving feedback from the hospital about their condition either.
> 
> Just from a few WhatsApp msgs from my sister, It sounds like she is having a very rough day today,
> All we can do is pray for her and wait.


 

Just an Update on my Sister. She passed away from Covid19 last night. She fought for oxygen for the last 4-5 days. Her Oxygen was between 40%-70% up until last night.  The hospital let my oldest sister into the ward to see her(all PPE precautions observed). and they were changing machines from a CPAP machine to a high-pressure one, so for a few seconds, she was breathing on her own. All she could muster breathing on her own was 17% oxygen.  

We are all heartbroken. and frankly, I'm feeling angry at the Aholes who get COVID and still think, just because they feel fine, they can go to town and go shopping and refuse to wear masks and not take precautions.  My sister caught this from a guy who got COVID and came to work anyway because he felt fine.    

My mom and my niece moved in with me to stay safe while my oldest sister is self-isolating.  She is all alone in a house for the next 10 days - 2 weeks trying to deal with the death of my 2nd oldest sister, in isolation.


----------



## AliOop

Oh @Elizevt I am so sorry.  My prayers go out to you and your family tonight.


----------



## DKing

@Elizevt  I am so extremely sorry for your loss!!  How selfish of that person for bringing a virus into the workplace that cost your sister her life, and for all of you, her loss.  He is going to have to live with that horrible decision for the rest of his life and I hope he remembers her every day.  People need to take this virus far more seriously!  Too many lives are being lost that may have been prevented with some precautions.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

@Elizevt I'm so sorry for your loss. Sending you and your family (((HUGS))) and lots of warm thoughts during this very difficult time.


----------



## dibbles

@Elizevt I'm so very sorry for the loss of your sister. *hugs* to you and your family.


----------



## Jersey Girl

@Elizevt 
I am so very sorry to see this heartbreaking update.


----------



## Megan

@Elizevt I am so sorry for your loss.


----------



## Claudette Carignan

I am So very sorry for your loss.


----------



## Catscankim

Elizevt said:


> Just an Update on my Sister. She passed away from Covid19 last night. She fought for oxygen for the last 4-5 days. Her Oxygen was between 40%-70% up until last night.  The hospital let my oldest sister into the ward to see her(all PPE precautions observed). and they were changing machines from a CPAP machine to a high-pressure one, so for a few seconds, she was breathing on her own. All she could muster breathing on her own was 17% oxygen.
> 
> We are all heartbroken. and frankly, I'm feeling angry at the Aholes who get COVID and still think, just because they feel fine, they can go to town and go shopping and refuse to wear masks and not take precautions.  My sister caught this from a guy who got COVID and came to work anyway because he felt fine.
> 
> My mom and my niece moved in with me to stay safe while my oldest sister is self-isolating.  She is all alone in a house for the next 10 days - 2 weeks trying to deal with the death of my 2nd oldest sister, in isolation.


I am so sorry for your loss. You and you family are in my thoughts. Praying for the health of your other sister.


----------



## Wendlebee

I am very sorry for your loss.  Let us all do everything we can to stay safe!


----------



## AliOop

I just learned that one young fellow who came to church yesterday has a wife sick at home with COVID. 

WHAT?? You came to a public gathering with people of all ages and health conditions, knowing for a FACT that you were intimately exposed to this virus?? Just because we live in an area where numbers are low, doesn't mean you should play Russian roulette with other people's lives. 

Can't think of any other words to say except bad ones, so I'll quit there.


----------



## cmzaha

@Elizevt please accept my heartfelt condolences to you and your family for the senseless loss of your sister. Will keep your family and your sister in confinement in my prayers. These senseless acts of selfish people just make no sense to me. 

These acts affect people and families directly and indirectly. We lost a beloved friend to all things curable Listeria, the end of last month. She laid in an emergency room, with the family only being told she has an infection but they were not sure what it was and they were very busy. My friend died 15 hrs later. A week later the autopsy showed she had Listeria. A curable food poisoning. She was otherwise a healthy person.


----------



## dibbles

cmzaha said:


> @Elizevt please accept my heartfelt condolences to you and your family for the senseless loss of your sister. Will keep your family and your sister in confinement in my prayers. These senseless acts of selfish people just make no sense to me.
> 
> These acts affect people and families directly and indirectly. We lost a beloved friend to all things curable Listeria, the end of last month. She laid in an emergency room, with the family only being told she has an infection but they were not sure what it was and they were very busy. My friend died 15 hrs later. A week later the autopsy showed she had Listeria. A curable food poisoning. She was otherwise a healthy person.


I’m sorry for your loss as well, Carolyn.


----------



## JillGat

AliOop said:


> I just learned that one young fellow who came to church yesterday has a wife sick at home with COVID.
> 
> WHAT?? You came to a public gathering with people of all ages and health conditions, knowing for a FACT that you were intimately exposed to this virus?? Just because we live in an area where numbers are low, doesn't mean you should play Russian roulette with other people's lives.
> 
> Can't think of any other words to say except bad ones, so I'll quit there.



*No one* should be in a church gathering right now, whether they/you know they have been exposed or not. The majority of people with Covid-19 are asymptomatic.  Everyone going to a church gathering right now is playing Russian roulette with others' and their own lives.


----------



## AliOop

JillGat said:


> *No one* should be in a church gathering right now, whether they/you know they have been exposed or not. The majority of people with Covid-19 are asymptomatic.  Everyone going to a church gathering right now is playing Russian roulette with others' and their own lives.


Please don't make assumptions before you know all of the facts. Our state has very low numbers and is in Phase 3. Everything is open except bars and large inside gatherings.

Even so, our church is voluntarily and strictly complying with social distancing, mask-wearing, and meeting outside. It is no more risky, and in fact far less risky, than going to a grocery store, the beach, and other public places like Walmart, protests, or marches -- NONE of which are scrupulously sanitized or even able to strictly enforce social distancing like our church does.

ALL of those places/gatherings are far more dangerous than our very regimented church gathering. ALL of them are subject to foolish people who mingle with others in public after known exposure. 

To the extent you apply the same rigorous standard to ALL of those gatherings, and are personally staying out of stores and all other public places, then I commend you for your non-hypocritical stance on these issues.


----------



## Elizevt

Ya, Funerals are very tricky. People who have been exposed to a family member who died of covid19, all getting together with masses of people to hug and shake hands with people that are holding snotty tissues.... nope.

My whole family are at high risk. Compromised immune systems or just plain overweight and unhealthy. So we can't risk getting sick.  My sister who passed away on Sunday will be cremated and we will hold a tiny memorial with just the direct family (mom, sister brother niece) and a minister. But we will be hosting it over skype, so that family and friends can sit in and listen to the service.  It's Much safer. 

During lockdown My family have been doing attending bible study over skype, so we got the idea to do the memorial service online too. It's just much safer. 

We can't risk loosing more loved ones. We are running out of family


----------



## Marsi

Elizevt I admire your resiliance and good sense

Praying that your remaining loved ones all stay well

cmzaha they are warning here that the risk from ordinary diseases have increased but to have this happen in your own circle of friends - i cant even image


----------



## Megan

@cmzaha  I'm sorry for your loss as well. 

One of the things that frustrates me about people who write off Covid as being nothing more than a bad flu and the death rate not being very bad (or that most recover) is they don't realize how taxing it is on our healthcare system. Even if we're in a pandemic, people are still going to have heart attacks, strokes, get food poisoning/other infections, have life threatening allergic reactions, get in car accidents, etc....and they still need adequate care too.


----------



## Susie

@cmzaha and @Megan 

I am so very, very sorry for your losses!  I will keep y'all in my thoughts and prayers!


----------



## Catscankim

I would like to hear from the other healthcare workers here. Do you feel like its getting better? I do. I dont even watch the numbers. I think the numbers are all bs. Quest Lab “forgot” to report thousands of results from months ago, so they all got reported in one day...making florida the worst in the country once again.

Anyway, just an example of bad numbers.

How does everybody who works in it feel right now? Personally I feel like its better. We were talking about it in the er the other day, and i was talking to a nurse from another hospital. Covid is definitely going down. I dont think we are out of the woods. Everybody i have spoken to also is afraid of another wave.


----------



## atiz

Catscankim said:


> I would like to hear from the other healthcare workers here. Do you feel like its getting better? I do. I dont even watch the numbers. I think the numbers are all bs. Quest Lab “forgot” to report thousands of results from months ago, so they all got reported in one day...making florida the worst in the country once again.
> 
> Anyway, just an example of bad numbers.
> 
> How does everybody who works in it feel right now? Personally I feel like its better. We were talking about it in the er the other day, and i was talking to a nurse from another hospital. Covid is definitely going down. I dont think we are out of the woods. Everybody i have spoken to also is afraid of another wave.


I'm really glad to hear that, and hope so much that it's true. 
I work in higher ed and things are not great here right now, but that has to do with the start of the semester and bringing 40k students back to campus, which everyone knew was a terrible idea to begin with. Anyway, hopefully things will stabilize soon.
Big kudos to all the healthcare workers who have been in this for so long now.


----------



## Catscankim

atiz said:


> I'm really glad to hear that, and hope so much that it's true.
> I work in higher ed and things are not great here right now, but that has to do with the start of the semester and bringing 40k students back to campus, which everyone knew was a terrible idea to begin with. Anyway, hopefully things will stabilize soon.
> Big kudos to all the healthcare workers who have been in this for so long now.


Stay safe!!


----------



## TheGecko

Add to the CV-19 woes...wild fires.  We've lost four towns in our county.  Some of the fires are do to nature, some are suspicious to say the least.

And get this.  I'm Oregon...I'm sure you have heard about all the protesting going on here.  Anyhoo...about a dozen of them thought it would be a good idea to "protest" at a highway in the fire zone...blocking folks trying to evacuate and emergency services trying to get in.  And of course, our Governor is totally useless (along with the Portland Mayor).


----------



## Daisy

"grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference."


----------



## beckster51

TheGecko said:


> Add to the CV-19 woes...wild fires.  We've lost four towns in our county.  Some of the fires are do to nature, some are suspicious to say the least.
> 
> And get this.  I'm Oregon...I'm sure you have heard about all the protesting going on here.  Anyhoo...about a dozen of them thought it would be a good idea to "protest" at a highway in the fire zone...blocking folks trying to evacuate and emergency services trying to get in.  And of course, our Governor is totally useless (along with the Portland Mayor).


My son and DIL just moved to Oregon 3 weeks ago!  What a rude awakening.  They loved it for the first 2 weeks - LOL.  They are in Eugene, so I hope that the Holiday Farm fire will be contained before it gets to them.  Since they really don't know anything about Oregon, it is a bit nerve-wracking, for them and the parental units.  My thoughts are certainly with everyone on the west coast in this hellish nightmare.  Stay safe!


----------



## TheGecko

beckster51 said:


> My son and DIL just moved to Oregon 3 weeks ago!  What a rude awakening.  They loved it for the first 2 weeks - LOL.  They are in Eugene, so I hope that the Holiday Farm fire will be contained before it gets to them.  Since they really don't know anything about Oregon, it is a bit nerve-wracking, for them and the parental units.  My thoughts are certainly with everyone on the west coast in this hellish nightmare.  Stay safe!



They should be okay...we have family in Eugene too. It's hit the west outskirts of Springfield, but it has a long ways to go to reach Eugene and then it would have to cross I-5 and with a LOT of wind behind it. 

We currently have 36 to 38 fire burning in Oregon. We're approximately 35 miles from the Beachie Fire, well outside any "zones" right now. Of course, I am starting my vacation today and we're heading into a "Green Zone", not too far from a "Yellow Zone", but I'm not too overly worried because 1) there is a big river between the zones and 2) I can be repacked in two minutes and on the road heading home in five.


----------



## Catscankim

TheGecko said:


> Add to the CV-19 woes...wild fires.  We've lost four towns in our county.  Some of the fires are do to nature, some are suspicious to say the least.
> 
> And get this.  I'm Oregon...I'm sure you have heard about all the protesting going on here.  Anyhoo...about a dozen of them thought it would be a good idea to "protest" at a highway in the fire zone...blocking folks trying to evacuate and emergency services trying to get in.  And of course, our Governor is totally useless (along with the Portland Mayor).


Sorry, i would have barreled them all over with my truck. I worry about this kind of stuff with the protestors. I have seen videos with people stopping for them and being ripped out of the car. Im pretty sure they will jump out of the way anyway. Even if they dont...im protecting my life


----------



## beckster51

TheGecko said:


> They should be okay...we have family in Eugene too. It's hit the west outskirts of Springfield, but it has a long ways to go to reach Eugene and then it would have to cross I-5 and with a LOT of wind behind it.
> 
> We currently have 36 to 38 fire burning in Oregon. We're approximately 35 miles from the Beachie Fire, well outside any "zones" right now. Of course, I am starting my vacation today and we're heading into a "Green Zone", not too far from a "Yellow Zone", but I'm not too overly worried because 1) there is a big river between the zones and 2) I can be repacked in two minutes and on the road heading home in five.


I certainly hope you are right, and I hope the wind and weather gives everyone a break.  Enjoy your vacation and stay safe.  I appreciate the information very much.


----------



## Susie

Here in DFW our Co-vid 19 numbers are down from the huge spike we had from Memorial Day outings.  But actual in-person school started last week.  So...they won't be down long.  They already have positive cases in at least two schools.


----------



## BattleGnome

Numbers are way up by us. governor Whitmer announced my area rolling back a stage in the opening plan, two hours later the Michigan Supreme Court ruled she was overreaching her powers. I work in a group home for adults with developmental disabilities, a licensed adult foster care home. We have no idea what is going on but need to base our actions on what the law says. My husband just found out that he was exposed to someone who was exposed to someone who may have been exposed to the virus (aka: my husband’s coworker’s wife works with someone who tested positive). Until we know for sure there is no contingency plan for “maybe“ and I can’t afford to miss work on a “maybe.” 


I did find this article from the Mayo Clinic about air purifiers, so “maybe” I can still keep my clients safe.


----------



## earlene

I'm sorry, *BattleGnome*.  I've been considering an air purifier for our home, but just keep putting it off.

But in a group home, it sure does seem like the wise choice.

Well, even in my home it might be the right choice.  My husband works with the public and we do share the same space, and as it gets colder, there is less air circulation inside our home.


----------



## Megan

I'm so fatigued by all of this...

The second wave is coming, who knows what mutations may or may not have happened within the virus and if this second wave will be even deadlier than the first...which if history repeats itself I wouldn't write off at all. 

My work is making me go on a business car trip tomorrow...where I'll be in a car with someone who was just at a wedding, and another person who travels as a salesman for a living, flying on planes and everything...so I'm pretty pissed that I'm going to be stuck inside a metal box with these two for seven hours.


----------



## beckster51

Oh, that is frustrating and a bit scary!  Is it warm enough to open the car windows?  That might help.  I can't imagine why anyone needs to do this in this day and time.


----------



## Megan

beckster51 said:


> Oh, that is frustrating and a bit scary!  Is it warm enough to open the car windows?  That might help.  I can't imagine why anyone needs to do this in this day and time.


The majority of the trip will be highway, and it's not cold, but not warm...so I doubt that the windows will be open. I plan on wearing a mask and insisting the others do the same. That's about the best I can do.


----------



## lenarenee

What's disturbing are the neighbors talking about kids (up to college age) who had covid, and are still down for the count. A 16 year old who can't get out of bed - despite having covid in March. An 8 year old with blood clots in his leg, lung damage; asymptomatic until he went to emergency room for pain and swelling.  Another teen who's been in a wheelchair for 5 months due to weakness, tremors. Right down the street is a girl about...11?  Has memory problems after asymptomatic covid in June. These are all in a section of our town that I can drive to in 15 minutes or less. That just seems like a lot of kids for a virus that isn't supposed to have much affect on them.


----------



## linne1gi

lenarenee said:


> What's disturbing are the neighbors talking about kids (up to college age) who had covid, and are still down for the count. A 16 year old who can't get out of bed - despite having covid in March. An 8 year old with blood clots in his leg, lung damage; asymptomatic until he went to emergency room for pain and swelling.  Another teen who's been in a wheelchair for 5 months due to weakness, tremors. Right down the street is a girl about...11?  Has memory problems after asymptomatic covid in June. These are all in a section of our town that I can drive to in 15 minutes or less. That just seems like a lot of kids for a virus that isn't supposed to have much affect on them.


I have a co-worker who is a nurse, she's age 32 and she now has breathing problems and an enlarged heart and other cardiac problems since she had Covid.   People are still much too cavalier about this virus, it's not just the flu, it's many other problems as well, and they seem to go on for extended periods of time.


----------



## earlene

Megan said:


> The majority of the trip will be highway, and it's not cold, but not warm...so I doubt that the windows will be open. I plan on wearing a mask and insisting the others do the same. That's about the best I can do.



Can you obtain a face shield?  I would wear one over the mask in that situation.  If not, I would wear safety goggles. As a soaper, you must have a pair of safety goggles.

In fact I do wear safety glasses everywhere I go now.  They are actually safety goggles for wearing outside in the sun, so they just look like sunglasses, but they are safety glasses and have a very good wrap around design for protecting the eyes from all angles.  I slide them up like a hair band if no one is close to me while shopping, but when someone gets too close, I just pull them down over my eyes so droplets won't get into my eyes.


----------



## MarnieSoapien

As a family, we decided to apply for temporary residency for my mom. We fully expect her application to be denied and when /if it is, we will appeal. This should give us a few more months of not having to worry about her safety.

Denmark has had an increase of cases over the last month resulting in some sectors being sent back to work from home. Masks are mandatory on all public transportation and in restaurants and cafes until you are seated. Kids are in school and we get notices when the Danish Health Authorities make any changes. The school our youngest goes to did have 1 positive case of a kid in grade 7. Our kiddo is in grade 0 and the school had precautions in place so the children don't mingle with other kids outside of their class.

My husband is being treated for a presumptive positive for Lyme's disease. I'm going to make a t-shirt for him that says "I survived Corona with Lyme's"

I try not to be discouraged or sad because we are very fortunate to be living in Denmark, have my mom here and my husband have a job that is very supportive. But man, I miss the ease of travel of a year ago. I wish I could hop on a plane and go...anywhere.


----------



## earlene

Our County doesn't meet the criteria for Nursing Home Visits, so we can't go visit MIL.  Here's hoping our county new case rate goes down to the Nursing Homes open up for family visits again.

*MarnieSopien*, when my granddaughter flew back home in June after a long visit (she has come back with me by car), she wore not only a mask, but a face shield. I was so proud of her for planning her personal protective gear right from the start as soon as the flight plan was discussed.

I'd rather drive, myself, but I know that's not a viable option for some destinations.


----------



## goat soap rulz!

All i can say to my American folks is please... Vote.
Pease... Listen to scientist. Not politicians with no scientific backrounds who only spew lies. 
Please... do your own research and factcheck everything you hear. 
We are all tired, and clearly the government is doing terribly. We have to take it onto our own hands and follow guidelines, and listen to Scientist. It could be way better by now if everyone would just do the right thing. 
If you truly love America, do the right thing.


----------



## AliOop

goat soap rulz! said:


> All i can say to my American folks is please... Vote.
> Pease... Listen to scientist. Not politicians with no scientific backrounds who only spew lies.
> Please... do your own research and factcheck everything you hear.
> We are all tired, and clearly the government is doing terribly. We have to take it onto our own hands and follow guidelines, and listen to Scientist. It could be way better by now if everyone would just do the right thing.
> If you truly love America, do the right thing.


I agree with you, but will also note that even the scientists have widely varying statements about what works and doesn't work. Last year at this time, the CDC website was adamant (to the point of mocking) about the fact that masks don't work to stop the spread of airborne illnesses, and used SARS as the specific example. Of course, all of that has now been removed. Was the previous "science" correct? Or is this current "science" correct? I can't fault anyone for taking either side in that debate, but I do fault people who want to assume ill intent on the part of others who don't believe like they believe.

So along with your plea, I would urge people to listen carefully even to opinions and beliefs of those with whom you disagree. Ask questions about why they believe certain things that seem strange to you. Get to know them as a person, and see if there isn't some common ground where you can appreciate them as a human being.

It's too easy for us to get stuck in an echo-chamber life where we only associate with those who share our beliefs, whether that is about masks, or which science is the correct science. Then we start thinking that others who believe differently are stupid, or even evil.

There will always be stupid and evil people in this world, but not everyone who thinks differently than you do will necessarily fall into either of those categories. And if we stay stuck in believing that they are stupid and evil, then we remain divided, instead of working to find common ground to move forward in a way that is respectful of people as individuals.


----------



## beckster51

AliOop said:


> I agree with you, but will also note that even the scientists have widely varying statements about what works and doesn't work. Last year at this time, the CDC website was adamant (to the point of mocking) about the fact that masks don't work to stop the spread of airborne illnesses, and used SARS as the specific example. Of course, all of that has now been removed. Was the previous "science" correct? Or is this current "science" correct? I can't fault anyone for taking either side in that debate, but I do fault people who want to assume ill intent on the part of others who don't believe like they believe.
> 
> So along with your plea, I would urge people to listen carefully even to opinions and beliefs of those with whom you disagree. Ask questions about why they believe certain things that seem strange to you. Get to know them as a person, and see if there isn't some common ground where you can appreciate them as a human being.
> 
> It's too easy for us to get stuck in an echo-chamber life where we only associate with those who share our beliefs, whether that is about masks, or which science is the correct science. Then we start thinking that others who believe differently are stupid, or even evil.
> 
> There will always be stupid and evil people in this world, but not everyone who thinks differently than you do will necessarily fall into either of those categories. And if we stay stuck in believing that they are stupid and evil, then we remain divided, instead of working to find common ground to move forward in a way th


----------



## Jersey Girl

AliOop said:


> I agree with you, but will also note that even the scientists have widely varying statements about what works and doesn't work. Last year at this time, the CDC website was adamant (to the point of mocking) about the fact that masks don't work to stop the spread of airborne illnesses, and used SARS as the specific example. Of course, all of that has now been removed. Was the previous "science" correct? Or is this current "science" correct? I can't fault anyone for taking either side in that debate, but I do fault people who want to assume ill intent on the part of others who don't believe like they believe.
> 
> So along with your plea, I would urge people to listen carefully even to opinions and beliefs of those with whom you disagree. Ask questions about why they believe certain things that seem strange to you. Get to know them as a person, and see if there isn't some common ground where you can appreciate them as a human being.
> 
> It's too easy for us to get stuck in an echo-chamber life where we only associate with those who share our beliefs, whether that is about masks, or which science is the correct science. Then we start thinking that others who believe differently are stupid, or even evil.
> 
> There will always be stupid and evil people in this world, but not everyone who thinks differently than you do will necessarily fall into either of those categories. And if we stay stuck in believing that they are stupid and evil, then we remain divided, instead of working to find common ground to move forward in a way that is respectful of people as individuals.



Amen to everything you wrote @AliOop


----------



## beckster51

You know, if you posted this on twitter, they would remove it as being disinformation.  There is no such thing as "alternate facts" when it comes to science. I agree that we must be respectful to others who hold differing opinions, but opinions are not science, and being respectful has nothing to do with truth.  The CDC has never said that masks were useless.  They said we shouldn't wear them in the beginning because the hospitals did not have enough PPE for healthcare workers and they didn't want people on the street using PPE that was needed in the hospitals.  There was such a run on masks in the general public, that PPE was not available for healthcare workers.  Since there was literally nothing known about this new virus when it hit, the advice has been evolving.  No scientists at the CDC has given us "wrong advice", they have just been updating the advice as more information came to light.  When someone who is not a scientist has proof, as the scientists do, about how the scientists are wrong, as in studies and not opinions, then I will give them consideration.  Sorry, with all due respect, but this sounds like magical thinking.


----------



## GemstonePony

AliOop said:


> I agree with you, but will also note that even the scientists have widely varying statements about what works and doesn't work. Last year at this time, the CDC website was adamant (to the point of mocking) about the fact that masks don't work to stop the spread of airborne illnesses, and used SARS as the specific example. Of course, all of that has now been removed. Was the previous "science" correct? Or is this current "science" correct? I can't fault anyone for taking either side in that debate, but I do fault people who want to assume ill intent on the part of others who don't believe like they believe.
> 
> So along with your plea, I would urge people to listen carefully even to opinions and beliefs of those with whom you disagree. Ask questions about why they believe certain things that seem strange to you. Get to know them as a person, and see if there isn't some common ground where you can appreciate them as a human being.
> 
> It's too easy for us to get stuck in an echo-chamber life where we only associate with those who share our beliefs, whether that is about masks, or which science is the correct science. Then we start thinking that others who believe differently are stupid, or even evil.
> 
> There will always be stupid and evil people in this world, but not everyone who thinks differently than you do will necessarily fall into either of those categories. And if we stay stuck in believing that they are stupid and evil, then we remain divided, instead of working to find common ground to move forward in a way that is respectful of people as individuals.


@goat soap rulz! didn't specify mask-wearing, and given the number of people who still aren't washing their hands, I'd start there instead. Mask-wearing is easier to identify and gets more noise, but if we could at least get everyone to wash their hands after using the bathroom, that would be nice. There seem to be a number of people in this country (extrapolated from observation) who don't follow basic hygiene practices and aren't changing that just because there's a pandemic.


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## lenarenee

There's a difference between "alternate facts" (which are actually lies to suit a chosen narrative) and the kind of science that's going on - evolving science if you will.  The scientific process is a slow, plodding, painstaking, highly detailed process.  Often it's AFTER the studies are done that researchers discover where the flaws were in their process and how that may have colored their findings....so they go back to redesign the study and start over.  Then - the experiments have to be replicated by other researchers with the exact parameters - and if they get different results - it's back to the drawing board ...again. 

There's also interpretations of those findings - and 2 highly qualified science groups and have 2 different interpretations of those findings. So guess what....they experiment again. 

Another factor is, because of the medical need - doctors are reporting "anecdotal" observations, and researchers are choosing some of them to base an experiment on - because Covid is a moving target and sometime you just have to pick a starting point and jump in to learning what you can.  However - any reports from experiments using anecdotal info are supposed to be labeled as such. 

So, I'm not surprised that things change from one month to the next. (I'm not including info from politicians). This is exactly what I would expect.  Also - when journalists try to write informative article to the average reader (neither of which are highly knowledgeable in science-speak) - then there's lots of mis-interpretation that happens. 

Science is still learning about the 1918 pandemic. We won't be good at handling Covid - until years have passed and all the data has been collected, and researched exhaustively. 

(For 24 years I've been surrounded by highly respected scientists, including a virologist, neuroscientist, researcher - and others. In fact, one of them is responsible for inventing the process that maps the entire genome of viruses in hours, instead of weeks - and overseeing the building of the machine that does it. 
Before knowing these people, I had little respect for science; rolled my eyes in our earliest conversations and couldn't wait to change the subject.  Now - well, medical science saved my life for the first time when I was about 7 months old - and it's done it a couple of times since. I'm a believer.)


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## AliOop

Don't get me wrong - I love and appreciate scientists, and science. 

What I don't like is the easy dismissal of anyone who questions status quo, says that they have different results than others, etc. Just look how many different results we get here on this forum, even using the same oils, recipe, etc. There's room for difference if we would respect one another long enough to listen.



beckster51 said:


> You know, if you posted this on twitter, they would remove it as being disinformation.  There is no such thing as "alternate facts" when it comes to science. I agree that we must be respectful to others who hold differing opinions, but opinions are not science, and being respectful has nothing to do with truth.  The CDC has never said that masks were useless.  They said we shouldn't wear them in the beginning because the hospitals did not have enough PPE for healthcare workers and they didn't want people on the street using PPE that was needed in the hospitals.  There was such a run on masks in the general public, that PPE was not available for healthcare workers.  Since there was literally nothing known about this new virus when it hit, the advice has been evolving.  No scientists at the CDC has given us "wrong advice", they have just been updating the advice as more information came to light.  When someone who is not a scientist has proof, as the scientists do, about how the scientists are wrong, as in studies and not opinions, then I will give them consideration.  Sorry, with all due respect, but this sounds like magical thinking.


You must not have read the actual CDC pages in the past (which I did, and wish I had printed) which said that mask-wearing was completely ineffective against SARS (a viral cousin to COVID). During the first big SARS outbreak, the CDC website had pictures of streets in Asian countries, filled with mask-wearing crowds, and a headline that said, "Masks are ineffective and may even be harmful." Dr. Fauci even made that statement ON TAPE at the beginning of 2020.

I cannot emphasize enough that my point is *not* whether masks are effective. I'm just using the change in scientific stance on that one issue to point out that "science" isn't always as hard and fast as it is played to be. Even the experts change their mind, and not all of them agree, either. Scientific studies can and often are designed to prove a pre-existing hypothesis. Remember the "studies" funded by Big Tobacco that "proved" that smoking wasn't harmless to our health?

I'm not advocating in any way to ignore "science," but to READ the actual studies and scientific literature to make sure they prove what they purport to prove. And keep in mind that what is "true" today may be disproven tomorrow based on a better understanding of *the science*.

EDIT:  ....and to respect others who may have an honest difference in beliefs, whether they don't believe the same facts as you do, or whether they don't believe the same conclusion as a result of those facts.


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## beckster51

AliOop said:


> You must not have read the actual CDC pages in the past (which I did, and wish I had printed) which said that mask-wearing was completely ineffective against SARS (a viral cousin to COVID). During the first big SARS outbreak, the CDC website had pictures of streets in Asian countries, filled with mask-wearing crowds, and a headline that said, "Masks are ineffective and may even be harmful." Dr. Fauci even made that statement ON TAPE at the beginning of 2020.
> 
> I cannot emphasize enough that my point is *not* whether masks are effective. I'm just using the change in scientific stance on that one issue to point out that "science" isn't always as hard and fast as it is played to be. Even the experts change their mind, and not all of them agree, either. Scientific studies can and often are designed to prove a pre-existing hypothesis. Remember the "studies" funded by Big Tobacco that "proved" that smoking wasn't harmless to our health?
> 
> I'm not advocating in any way to ignore "science," but to READ the actual studies and scientific literature to make sure they prove what they purport to prove. And keep in mind that what is "true" today may be disproven tomorrow based on a better understanding of *the science*.
> 
> EDIT:  ....and to respect others who may have an honest difference in beliefs, whether they don't believe the same facts as you do, or whether they don't believe the same conclusion as a result of those facts.


I am an advanced practice nurse who has been involved in science for over 50 years.  I keep up with all the CDC recommendations, even before the pandemic, I have been involved in research, I know how to read research and how to evaluate whether or not a study is valid or verifiable based on methodology and conclusions.  The CDC has never printed  any material that is scathing or mocking that I have read.  Any study that is funded by the industry that is being investigated should be viewed with skepticism.  That is why reputable sources require that potential conflicts of interest by the investigators are admitted and published.  Comparisons between SARS and Covid 19 are like comparing apples to oranges.  So, yes, I have read the studies, and I read new studies every day.  I am confident in saying I know of what I speak or I don't speak, and I don't make assumptions, which are dangerous, nor do I try to fill in the voids in science by coming up with conclusions and plans of action that are not based on proven facts.  It is very, very difficult for me to stay quiet when people spread information that is not helpful in saving lives.  I have opinions and beliefs, but they are not the same as scientific facts.


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## AliOop

@beckster51 I stand corrected: it wasn't the CDC that published the mocking pictures. It was newspapers, that were basing their stance on the CDC's official position that masks don't help. 

I know this for a fact, because when travel resumed after a SARS outbreak, I was in the midst of planning a work trip to Hong Kong. So I personally read the news articles, and then personally read the CDC's website stating that face masks don't help prevent the spread of viral diseases. That official position was not changed until sometime early in 2020, well after the COVID-19 outbreak. 

Whatever... I have no dog in the fight as to whether masks should or should not be worn. I only want to do what the facts support is the best thing to do. But what we believe to be facts today, often changes tomorrow. As a medical professional, you surely know about the first doctor who advocated hand-washing to prevent the spread of disease - he was severely mocked and ostracized by his medical peers. Before that, people were executed for daring to hypothesize that the earth was round. 

So who am I to say that what someone puts forth as fact - whether from mainstream medical, or those believed to be off-beat quacks - is or is not correct? That's why I listen to and read a wide variety of sources that say widely conflicting things: far left, alt-right, and everything in between. You absolutely have the same right to decide what sources you want to hear and trust. But I'd never go so far as to say that this source or that source is the one that has all the right facts. History shows that almost never is so.


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## beckster51

Semmelweis was indeed mocked, but he was right, and his assertions were based on data.  I understand you have the right to listen to whoever you desire, but I do believe it is important to listen to those who have been educated to pursue the truth in these issues and who have gone to the trouble to having their assertions backed by data.  And civil servants, who are never paid enough for their efforts and expertise, IMHO, should be given more weight than others.  It's easy to write an article, not so easy to ensure that you know what you are talking about.  Stay well!


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## AliOop

beckster51 said:


> Semmelweis was indeed mocked, but he was right, and his assertions were based on data.  I understand you have the right to listen to whoever you desire, but I do believe it is important to listen to those who have been educated to pursue the truth in these issues and who have gone to the trouble to having their assertions backed by data.  And civil servants, who are never paid enough for their efforts and expertise, IMHO, should be given more weight than others.  It's easy to write an article, not so easy to ensure that you know what you are talking about.  Stay well!


I can certainly agree with all of that.  

Thank you for the spirited, respectful discussion about these interesting times, and your selflessness as a medical professional who regularly puts her own health on the line for the benefit of others in need.


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## JillGat

Trust Fauci . That politicians would argue with or dismissed his information or recommendations amazes me


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## earlene

In the midst of this pandemic, my eldest son is so isolated, it worries me greatly.  None of the family has been able to visit him, nor has he been able to visit any of us either due to distance, travel restrictions, financial circumstances, medical circumstances, wildfires and so forth.  On top of that, his landlord wants all tenants out of the property (a few tiny houses she rents to HUD recipients) and began a campaign to force them all out perhaps before the pandemic, or just as the pandemic hit; timing could simply be a co-incidence.  But whether it just happens to be a co-incidence that she started this in the Spring, or not, she attempted to evict all tenants from all units after the pandemic began to rage here in the US.  Luckily because there is a moratorium on evictions right now, his housing situation is safe for a bit.  And lucky for the landlord, HUD recipients are required to pay their portion of the rent or HUD will drop them, so the rent does get paid.

She's better off than my younger son, whose tenant didn't pay rent for 6 months and her excuse was 'you can't kick me out because of CoVid' & the moratorium on evictions.  So they can't pay the mortgage on their house which is now up for sale.  He'd be better off if he had set up renting to HUD recipients.

But back to my eldest son, who is so isolated and I am really worried about.  This year I do not want to put my health at risk by traveling to California, and I have explained that to him. It gives me so much guilt considering that I have always gone to visit him at least once per year for the past several years, and he needs me or someone, but no, it's me he needs and it is so hard to communicate with him by phone.  His speech is hard to understand on the phone, often his speech is pressured, especially lately.  Getting him to slow down, enunciate and speak clearly is nearly impossible.  And my hearing loss makes it even more difficult.  Face to face, I can usually calm him and we can communicate better, but on the phone it's very difficult and I am sure just as frustrating to him as it is for me.

So here's the deal for my little family...

Younger son & DIL are trying to sell the house here in town that they used to live in before moving to Texas; they have not been able to keep up with the mortgage payments because they didn't have the income (not just CoVid related - deadbeat tenant related, but exacerbated by CoVid pandemic); the back has turned the mortgage over to collections (I just learned this last week).  Older son will need to find a new place to live soon if the eviction moratorium is lifted; he has HUD but even so, finding a new place will be difficult; his car needs work again; he lives on his disability payments, so income is limited; he cannot work, cannot hold a job when he tries; he needs mental health support, which is sporadic for a variety of reasons, some internal and some external; Our mortgage is paid off; Hubby has job security with a steady income (except in the case of a government shut-down, then his departments has always had to work without pay); my income is steady (2 retirements + Social Security); we can afford to buy younger son's house so they don't have to go bankrupt and destroy their credit; we can provide eldest son a home, which we believe we can get HUD approved.

So Hubby & I are working on a plan to buy the house, get it ready for him and his dog; we have to install a fence for the backyard; get him a washer & dryer; perhaps upgrade the bathroom (for his handicap).  I actually thought he might balk at the idea, but he has warmed up to it a lot in terms of the long-haul, as it is single story and a nice location in town and he wants us to retire to a single story home in future, and although he wanted to move to another state, I really like it here and sees real potential with this as our retirement home if eldest son decides he can't live in the MidWest (we did try it once before, and he didn't take to it, but that was in the same house as us; this might actually be better for him as he doesn't live well with others.)  

DIL is highly family support oriented, so she loves the idea of selling to us to provide a home for her brother-in-law, and believes younger son will feel the same way because he feels guilt sometimes that he can't help his brother or stand to be around him for prolonged periods when he tries.  And Hubby is very considerate in that he wants to help younger son & DIL out financially in such a way that we don't take unfair advantage of their financial straights and offer a fair price for the house rather than gouge them like the last buyers tried to do.  I am extremely proud of my husband's ethics and wish my Dad were still alive to see this, because he would have been so proud of my husband as well.

In any case, this pandemic (SARS Co-V-2) has certainly exacerbated this entire situation for us, but also for untold numbers of others in similar situations around the nation, and I expect, the entire world.


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## KimW

earlene said:


> So here's the deal for my little family...



Your little family will be in my thoughts, @earlene.  I'm thankful you and hubby are in a position to help with it all, and that family members are all in agreement.


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## Susie

@earlene Praying for you and your family!


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## dibbles

@earlene these are such difficult times, and your situation is another example of why. It seems that the solution is of benefit to every one of you in some way, and I applaud your family for finding a way to work it out to find a positive outcome. The best to you as you move your son home.


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## Zany_in_CO

@earlene  As always, good thinking! I hope writing it all down helped to clarify the many issues you are dealing with. Wishing you the best of luck and many blessings to you and your dear ones.


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## earlene

Well, our plan is looking good.  We met with our banker yesterday & I spoke with the realtor this morning.  Due to her self-quarantine (one of her clients tested positive, which she found out a couple of days after do a showing, and also a secretary in her office also tested positive), we are proceeding with only phone calls and electronic missives & meetings at this point.   That's fine for us, we already know the property well enough, having been intimately involved with preparation for sale in the first place.

My son & DIL are very happy that they are so close to being out from under the burden of this house and all the nightmares of renting during a pandemic.  I sent them money to get the mortgage payments up to date, so that won't be hanging over their heads while we wait for the process of the sale to complete itself (the appraisal, the title search and all the other required stuff that takes some time).  And once we have a binding agreement I can start taking things over there to prepare it for my other son.

That's the nice thing about it being in family as well as in town; I can actually start getting things in place for when my older son comes, so he & we have less to do when he actually does move in.  We have some furniture for him, which will make it that much easier for him.  Moving furniture 2000 miles is costly, way more costly than what he has is worth, so I am happy we have things he will be able to use, as is he.

In the meantime, I have surgery the day before Thanksgiving, so I'll be having another CoVid test a few days ahead of that, as per the current requirement for pre-surgical lab tests.  I'm actually glad that it is required so it will be done.  I don't have any real concerns that I have been exposed or have symptoms, but I like knowing for sure prior to traveling to California to help him with the move.


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## Zany_in_CO

earlene said:


> In the meantime, I have surgery the day before Thanksgiving,


LOL I'm sorry, but I had to laugh. It all seemed fine and dandy until I got to this sentence and you *@earlene* blithely saying this like you're the Ringmaster of a 3-ring circus, but you must step out for a bit to eat a piece of cake! You're one amazing woman! 

Wishing you all the best and most certainly, that all runs smoothly, especially the surgery.


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## earlene

Zany_in_CO said:


> LOL I'm sorry, but I had to laugh. It all seemed fine and dandy until I got to this sentence and you *@earlene* blithely saying this like you're the Ringmaster of a 3-ring circus, but you must step out for a bit to eat a piece of cake! You're one amazing woman!
> 
> Wishing you all the best and most certainly, that all runs smoothly, especially the surgery.



*Zany*, my surgery is minor: a simple ganglion cyst repair and a repair of a thumb joint that was damaged in a skiing accident (not recent.) If I have to wait for it, it won't be a problem for me personally, unless I have to wait until after Hubby retires, then insurance coverage could be a factor. Same hand for both surgeries; sort of 2 for the price of 1.


However, my husband just commented to me that 'they might cancel your surgery' because we had a horrendous spike of cases in our county yesterday: 273 new cases in one day! We live in a much less populated county than many others, so this was a huge shock, paticularly since most days there aren't even that many tests performed in our county. In addition to that, MIL's nursing home called yesterday to report that they are on 'double lockdown' because there are 5 staff & 2 residents who have tested positive. This is the first time a single resident (aka patient) has ever tested positive here. And also the first time more than one staff person has tested positive.

I speculate that the increased testing in our county was a result of a combination of contact tracing & the recommendation by public health officials that people get tested if they voted in person at public polling sites (particularly with long lines, etc.)  Hubby & I voted in person at the country elections office on the first early voting day for Illinois and there was no line of people when we went and in spite of his work, we have felt pretty safe with the precautions we both take. 

_Although_... Hubby did work the polls on Tuesday for 14 1/2 hours in a large room with unknown air quality. But he wore his mask properly all day (he always wears his mask properly all day at work as well), eye protection and gloves and was behind a plexiglass barrier as well. The distance between the other judges was 5 feet on either side, so his only concern is how close he was to them, rather than the voters themselves. Still, we have no idea about the air ventilation methods used in the building where the polls took place that day, and his mask was not an N95, which it probably should have been in that situation.

So now, we obviously feel the need to be even more cautious when shopping or whatever.

And I am seriously considering buying an air purifier to increase our air quality at home.  I've been thinking about it for some time now, but have just sort of kept putting off making a decision.  I think it's time for that decision.

PS: The county where the surgery is scheduled (next county over) also had a huge spike in cases yesterday, as well, so it is possible my husband is correct and the surgery could be cancelled.  We shall see.


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## BattleGnome

I would suggest the air purifier. A few weeks ago I posted a Mayo Clinic article about it: get a virus rated filter and keep the air moving. Anything is better than nothing. A few months ago I read an article about radiators, specifically the near useless/confusing ones in NYC apartments - apparently they were invented/installed during the 1918 pandemic and intended to be warm enough to keep the house from freezing with your windows open. even without the science the hope was in ventilation at all costs


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## Catscankim

@earlene I am so sorry for all your troubles. Will be keeping you and yours in my thoughts.

Hospitals are greedy, so I am 99.94% (pun intended) sure that your surgery will not be cancelled. Most hospitals started elective surgeries as soon as they possibly could after the pandemic started, and I don’t see them changing their minds now.

Stay safe, and good luck on your surgery.


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## TashaBird

I have sparkle mica everywhere. So, I can relate to this metaphor. Hope y’all are staying safe and sane.


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## Lin19687

Catscankim said:


> @earlene I am so sorry for all your troubles. Will be keeping you and yours in my thoughts.
> 
> Hospitals are greedy, so I am 99.94% (pun intended) sure that your surgery will not be cancelled. Most hospitals started elective surgeries as soon as they possibly could after the pandemic started, and I don’t see them changing their minds now.
> 
> Stay safe, and good luck on your surgery.



I just want to point out the words "elective surgeries" which means ANYTHING that wasn't do e on your ER visit... basically.
Please know that just because it is called that doesn't mean it isn't  a serious or semi-emergent problem.  ie: a massive Hernia is elective, strangulated hernia would also still be elective depending on how long it has been strangled....

Hospitals still need to make money to run or they shut down.


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## earlene

Well, first, my surgery is not in hospital; it's at an ambulatory surgery facility.  I had an EKG today in prep for it, so it's not being cancelled due to CoVid, at least not as yet.  I will have a mandatory CoVid test 2 days prior to the date of surgery and then isolated until the surgery.

However, my husband came home from work a few days ago and said one of the other Supervisors at work tested positive, and because of contact tracing (and with videotape verification) 3 others he has exposed via playing cards together (without masks on) in the breakroom at lunchtime, they all are out for 14 days.  Hubby had not worked with any of them last week because he was off work for most of the week, however, this does leave his shift short-staffed. Today he worked as the only supervisor and no Lead, so with the staffing dificulties, it was an exhausting day for him and he was really looking forward to this 2 days off.

Then just as he was getting settled in for a relaxing afternoon, one of his staff texted him that one of the 3 who were sent to quarantine has now tested positive.  As it turns out, she also exposed more staff the day after the incident where they were all exposed playing cards without masks on?  Guess how she exposed the others the next day? Playing cards in the break room while not wearing masks!  So now more staff have to get tested and quarantine. 

So now I am feeling anxiety.  He always wears a mask around his co-workers.  But I don't know how safe that break room is when he eats lunch.  He assures me he was not exposed on those particular days, because he was off for the election (he worked the polls & took a couple of extra days as well).  But that's no guarantee some other exposure might not have happened.


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## Catscankim

Lin19687 said:


> I just want to point out the words "elective surgeries" which means ANYTHING that wasn't do e on your ER visit... basically.
> Please know that just because it is called that doesn't mean it isn't  a serious or semi-emergent problem.  ie: a massive Hernia is elective, strangulated hernia would also still be elective depending on how long it has been strangled....
> 
> Hospitals still need to make money to run or they shut down.


I was saying that exact same thing. Sorry I wasnt clear enough, and sorry to upset you.


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## Dawni

Loves, need a few more prayers please.. On top of everything, my uncle just tested positive for covid

He was taken to the hospital Friday, in the middle of the storm, when he complained of tightness in the chest. Prior to that him, his wife n my cousin were all sick with flu like symptoms. They have recovered but he's still bad. 

Please keep my other countrymen in your prayers too. Our government cannot help everyone with covid plus the people who are affected by the two storms.


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## AliOop

@Dawni you definitely have my prayers for healing, comfort, and relief from these storms.


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## Relle

No cases in the last 5 days in Australia.


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## Zany_in_CO

AliOop said:


> @Dawni you definitely have my prayers for healing, comfort, and relief from these storms.


Ditto.


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## earlene

*Dawni*, best wishes to your uncle and your family.


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## beckster51

Dawni said:


> Loves, need a few more prayers please.. On top of everything, my uncle just tested positive for covid
> 
> He was taken to the hospital Friday, in the middle of the storm, when he complained of tightness in the chest. Prior to that him, his wife n my cousin were all sick with flu like symptoms. They have recovered but he's still bad.
> 
> Please keep my other countrymen in your prayers too. Our government cannot help everyone with covid plus the people who are affected by the two storms.


Dawni, I hope all goes as well as it can for you and yours.  I thought about you when the storms hit and hoped you were OK.  Now, your uncle is sick?  It seems it is a constant challenge these days.  Take care of you as well as everyone else.


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## beckster51

earlene said:


> Well, first, my surgery is not in hospital; it's at an ambulatory surgery facility.  I had an EKG today in prep for it, so it's not being cancelled due to CoVid, at least not as yet.  I will have a mandatory CoVid test 2 days prior to the date of surgery and then isolated until the surgery.
> 
> However, my husband came home from work a few days ago and said one of the other Supervisors at work tested positive, and because of contact tracing (and with videotape verification) 3 others he has exposed via playing cards together (without masks on) in the breakroom at lunchtime, they all are out for 14 days.  Hubby had not worked with any of them last week because he was off work for most of the week, however, this does leave his shift short-staffed. Today he worked as the only supervisor and no Lead, so with the staffing dificulties, it was an exhausting day for him and he was really looking forward to this 2 days off.
> 
> Then just as he was getting settled in for a relaxing afternoon, one of his staff texted him that one of the 3 who were sent to quarantine has now tested positive.  As it turns out, she also exposed more staff the day after the incident where they were all exposed playing cards without masks on?  Guess how she exposed the others the next day? Playing cards in the break room while not wearing masks!  So now more staff have to get tested and quarantine.
> 
> So now I am feeling anxiety.  He always wears a mask around his co-workers.  But I don't know how safe that break room is when he eats lunch.  He assures me he was not exposed on those particular days, because he was off for the election (he worked the polls & took a couple of extra days as well).  But that's no guarantee some other exposure might not have happened.


How frustrating and scary!  I hope all goes well, Earlene.  And I hope your surgeries go well. You definitely have too much going on!


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## earlene

My surgery was post-poned due to an anomaly in my EKG; I just got the call this morning.  They want me to be cleared by a cardiologist, and of course I can't get an appointment soon enough for that to happen.  First off, my cardiologist is in Texas and and I had not yet found one here to replace him.  Second, even the surgery center didn't think I'd be able to get clearance before the scheduled date anyway.

So I searched for a local cardiologist who does AVT ablations, patient reviews & my Insurance site to get a cardiologist to call for an appointment.  I can't get into see him until February 1st, so no hand surgery this year.  I contacted the hospital where my ablation was done to start the medical record release process, printed & completed the form, which I have to FAX or mail to them with a photocopy of my government-issued ID so they can send the info to my new cardiologist.

I would have put this in the gripe thread, except it's probably a good thing.  Having hand surgery a month before driving across country & helping my eldest son move, was not the best plan anyway.  The drive and the process of his move will be much easier with full use of both my hands.

Another co-worker at Hubby's work tested positive for CoVid & is now out for a minimum of 2 weeks.

One of the co-workers who tested positive last week was hospitalized, on a ventilator and so sick she thought she was going to die, but is now back home again. She will be out longer than the originally expected 2-week quarantine, because her doc won't clear her this soon, for obvious reasons. 

Hubby said yesterday that because of the above hospitalized co-worker's condition, he has been able to come down hard on all the staff that report directly to him, demanding they take this more seriously.  No more maskless faces while taking card-playing breaks in the break-room.  It's about time they realize this is life-threatening.  And they should be wearing gloves, too, despite the fact that that might make playing cards more difficult.  But, geez, people, 20% of staff are out because they tested positive, are sick or are out on quarantine from exposure by a co-worker!  

The good news is that upper management is now requiring they all wear face shields as well and have provided 3 different types to accommodate different needs/preferences.


----------



## The Park Bench

I'm sitting outside of the surgery center because, as of yesterday, they won't let loved ones in.  My 23 year old son is having his first surgery ever.  At least I personally know the recovery room nurse who is keeping me updated.  God did not give me a spirit of fear, but I would still prefer to be in there with my son


----------



## Kari Howie

I just posted on Facebook a coronavirus paper I wrote for our church that y'all may find useful. It's on my FB page Kari Roberson-Howie.


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## Obsidian

I get to go in for a corona test today and I'm not happy about it.
I wear my mask, stay away from people and wash often but a good 90% of the population here doesn't.

I have anxiety and its running full bore, I'm scared and trying not to freak out. The test itself has me freaked too, I have a issue with things going in noses.


----------



## KimW

Obsidian said:


> I get to go in for a corona test today and I'm not happy about it.


Oh dear.  I'm sorry you have to go through the hassle and anxiety.  I wouldn't be happy about it either.  Will be thinking about you today.


----------



## AliOop

@The Park Bench and @Obsidian praying for you both!


----------



## Gaisy59

Obsidian said:


> I get to go in for a corona test today and I'm not happy about it.
> I wear my mask, stay away from people and wash often but a good 90% of the population here doesn't.
> 
> I have anxiety and its running full bore, I'm scared and trying not to freak out. The test itself has me freaked too, I have a issue with things going in noses.


Well that sucks but it will be fine. I hate things going up my nose too but i have had my nose scoped so just remember to breathe and focus in something else. Good luck!


----------



## violets2217

Obsidian said:


> I get to go in for a corona test today and I'm not happy about it.


Hopefully you will have a lab technician as nice as mine! I had to get a test for work and it was a free drive thru test site manned by the National Guard, I think... military of some sort and they were rather intimidating and not very nice! So by the time it was my turn I was almost in tears. With the swab in her had... she said it’s not so bad, everything will be ok! I am almost positive she was smiling behind all her PPE! But the test wasn’t as bad as I was expecting and left a little less stressed. So I will pray for you and send calming vibes you way! Everything will be ok!


----------



## linne1gi

I work in a day surgery center.  I'm a registered nurse and I still work 1-2 days a week (I'm 69).  All the patients in our center who are having a procedure above the chest have to have a Covid test done 2 days before their surgery and to self isolate after the test. Everyone who enters the building must wear a mask and have their temperature taken.  All the staff must wear: an N-95 mask, with a level 3 surgical mask over the N-95, face shield, hair covering, gown, shoe coverings and gloves.  It's pretty stringent restrictions.  Only the patient may enter the building unless the procedure is for a child under 18, then one parent/guardian may enter. No one may remove their mask in the building.  Even for breaks and lunch, which most of us have outside.  So far, no staff member has gotten Covid,  It can definitely be tough wearing an N-95 all day but it seems to be working.


----------



## Obsidian

Thanks everyone. Sitting here at the DR waiting to go in, nerves are so bad I feel nauseous.

I'm really beginning to question my need for a test, besides a lack of taste, I have no symptoms. 
I did manage to burn my tongue a couple days ago with acid fruit, maybe thats the whole problem.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Obsidian said:


> Thanks everyone. Sitting here at the DR waiting to go in, nerves are so bad I feel nauseous.
> 
> I'm really beginning to question my need for a test, besides a lack of taste, I have no symptoms.
> I did manage to burn my tongue a couple days ago with acid fruit, maybe thats the whole problem.


I feel for you as I suffer with anxiety too. Saying a prayer for you.  It will be over soon.


----------



## Obsidian

That was very unpleasant but at least it was quick


----------



## dibbles

I hope the results come back soon and with a negative so you can relax.


----------



## The Park Bench

AliOop said:


> @The Park Bench and @Obsidian praying for you both!


Thank you


----------



## earlene

I await your results, *Obsidian*.  Burning your tongue is hopefully the entire cause of your sensory change.

The anxiety levels seem to be getting pretty high lately.  My eldest son about lost it this morning while trying to talk to me on his malfunctioning phone.  Car and phone troubles and neighbor problems lead to gastric disturbances (anxiety does that to him.)  He is calmer now that the car is in the shop, his phone is working and he actually had Immodium in his first aid kid, which I advised he take.

We are still waiting on news of the home loan, and found out we have to be even more patient, something that is hard to be right now.  Time for me to focus on other things for awhile!

I have an appointment with my primary physician tomorrow. I haven't seen him in over a year because of the temporary move to San Antonio, which I discussed with him prior to the event. But so much has happened since then and I need to bring him up to speed on my medical changes since I saw him last. I also just mailed a release of medical information form to the hospital where I had my cardiac ablation, so they'll send the information to my new cardiologist here and will do the same for the cardiologist & cardiosurgeon either later tonight or tomorrow (the form is still open on my laptop.)


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Obsidian said:


> I have a issue with things going in noses.


Just remember to breathe. You will be fine.


----------



## DKing

My daughter and her boyfriend were tested for the second time since covid 19 came to be, about 2 weeks ago.  Fortunately they both tested negative.  The day before she started feeling sick, she had gone to see my husband at work so that he could look at something to do with her car.  They hugged goodbye.  The next day she was feeling sick and she phoned me in the midst of a panic attack because she was worried she had covid symptoms.  Scared for herself, but also terrified that she might have passed on the virus to her father and then potentially to the rest of the family through him.  It is very hard to hear your child so terrified thinking that she may be the cause of one or both of her parents dying, or that she may be one of the unlucky younger people that don't survive this illness.  I did my best to calm her down and let her know that no matter what happened she was not responsible and should not have any guilt.  I wanted to go and see her and hug her and reassure her that we would all be fine, but of course at that point she was quarantining and it wasn't possible.  Anxiety levels are definitely high these days for everyone everywhere.  I am looking forward to the future when this is all resolved.  I am just hoping that while we get there that no one I know or love dies from this.  I feel so badly for those who have and who will lose their loved ones.  The world just feels so strange.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

DKing said:


> Anxiety levels are definitely high these days for everyone everywhere.


Fear of the unknown causes high anxiety. Therefore, knowing what to do when you test positive, the more likely you will sail through the 2-week hibernation.  The fact of the matter, speaking from experience, *unless you are having trouble breathing* and are running a high temperature, you will be sent home to *isolate, hydrate, rest and treat the symptoms as you would a cold* . If you have a sore throat, gargle with warm salt water for immediate relief. The bug "lives" in the throat. The number of positives is high but the likelihood of surviving is also high. Keep that thought in mind.


----------



## DKing

Zany_in_CO said:


> Fear of the unknown causes high anxiety. Therefore, knowing what to do when you test positive, the more likely you will sail through the 2-week hibernation.  The fact of the matter, speaking from experience, *unless you are having trouble breathing* and are running a high temperature, you will be sent home to *isolate, hydrate, rest and treat the symptoms as you would a cold* . If you have a sore throat, gargle with warm salt water for immediate relief. The bug "lives" in the throat. The number of positives is high but the likelihood of surviving is also high. Keep that thought in mind.


Yes, we do remind ourselves that the survival rate is pretty good and most get off with mild illness.  It is when young and seemingly healthy people die that I feel really confused and concerned.  My daughter worries though because her and my husband have a gene defect that leaves their lungs a bit unprotected so we have no way of knowing if it puts them at more risk for a more serious outcome.  We are all prepped for an extended stay at home if any of us get sick, which we expect is probably going to happen at some point.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

DKing said:


> My daughter worries though because her and my husband have a gene defect that leaves their lungs a bit unprotected so we have no way of knowing if it puts them at more risk for a more serious outcome.


I am SO sorry to hear that. Scary, indeed. I have a dear friend, age 65, in the same predicament.


----------



## DKing

Zany_in_CO said:


> I am SO sorry to hear that. Scary, indeed. I have a dear friend, age 65, in the same predicament.


Thank you!  Hopefully it will be all fine and no worries.  My mother in law also has the gene and she is in her early 80's and actually has accumulated damage to her lungs over the years because of it (non smoker) so we really worry about her getting sick.  She is convinced if she gets it that she will not survive.  I feel so badly for the people who truly feel vulnerable.  
I went into Costco today to do some shopping and there were so many people. Big lineups going in and line ups to pay stretching to the back of the warehouse...carts filled full and everyone wearing masks. I had time to think while I waited in my lineups so I started thinking about a year ago today....if anyone had told me this would be how we were living life now I would not have believed it. So crazy about how much can change in such a short time.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

DKing said:


> I started thinking about a year ago today....if anyone had told me this would be how we were living life now I would not have believed it.


So funny! I was thinking something similar while having my coffee on the back deck this AM. My thought was, _"I wonder if it will be like this a year from now?"_


----------



## violets2217

Zany_in_CO said:


> My thought was, _"I wonder if it will be like this a year from now?"_


I sooooo hope not! But I did read an article were Dr. Fauci (who I love to pieces!!!) said the vaccine would be ready for all by maybe April/May. So I've been curious if everyone would take it...Like the flu shot and all! I was a bit leery about it being given so early in the trials in some countries. But anyways... Dr. Fauci said he'd take it!!!


----------



## Jersey Girl

violets2217 said:


> I sooooo hope not! But I did read an article were Dr. Fauci (who I love to pieces!!!) said the vaccine would be ready for all by maybe April/May. So I've been curious if everyone would take it...Like the flu shot and all! I was a bit leery about it being given so early in the trials in some countries. But anyways... Dr. Fauci said he'd take it!!!


I for one am not lining up to take a vaccine developed in record time.


----------



## violets2217

Jersey Girl said:


> I for one am not lining up to take a vaccine developed in record time.


Lol... I'm not either. I'm not into conspiracy theories or whatever....and I vaccinate my kids and what not. But if companies keep stopping the trials.... there is a reason. I'ma gonna wait it out!!! But I'm also not a scientist.... what so I know!


----------



## earlene

My husband thinks we will have access to the vaccine, whichever one, early because he is a part of a federal emergency response team/task force program.  (I don't remember what he called it.)  Written into the protocol is that all members and their household members will be vaccinated in the first wave of vaccinations when the emergency is a pandemic situation (such as this.)

I remember him telling me about this way back when he signed on for this duty, but until he just mentioned it a few days ago, I'd forgotten. He may not even be on that roster anymore, though. It was a few years ago that he was added and trained; he hasn't been 'called up' to do anything related to this pandemic other than to continue working.

As for which vaccine that would be, it's anyone's guess right now.  There may be a few available.  I will just have to trust the science and the process.

My concern, however, is not the vaccination itself, but appropriate, safe and effective distribution of the initial dose of the vaccine AND any subsequent necessary boosters.  The whole thing has the potential to be a logistical nightmare.

ETA:  I just asked him about the program he was talking about (I do vaguely recall when he signed up for it & took the required training - it was 6 or 7 years ago).  It's only the security aspect of providing vaccines in a pandemic situation, a piece of the national pandemic response program.  So as part of the folks who provide the security for the vaccination process, the potential for exposure would be great, that's why they would be getting the vaccine as a part of the rollout process.  That explains why no-one has contacted him as yet.  There really is no imminent roll-out.  It will be interesting to see how this progresses.


----------



## violets2217

earlene said:


> My husband thinks we will have access to the vaccine, whichever one, early because he is a part of a federal emergency response team/task force program.


The article I read also mentioned that those in the medical field and those front line individuals will receive the vaccine when it is first approved. Then those with underlying medical conditions and such. Then the general population should have the vaccine available by April/May. I don’t have a problem with taking the vaccine, I just worry that the testing and development have been rushed ... I don’t know really what to think... it’s all really scary.


----------



## Catscankim

violets2217 said:


> The article I read also mentioned that those in the medical field and those front line individuals will receive the vaccine when it is first approved. Then those with underlying medical conditions and such. Then the general population should have the vaccine available by April/May. I don’t have a problem with taking the vaccine, I just worry that the testing and development have been rushed ... I don’t know really what to think... it’s all really scary.


None of us at the hospital want it. They are going to probably make it mandatory, so a lot of ppl are threatening to quit or retire. I am talking nurses, doctors, techs. Our charge nurse said she wont take it...shes a friend of mine also, so we were speaking candidly. Its too rushed.

I cant afford to quit or retire, so i will take it....I will probably be the very last one to get it. See what happens to every one else first lol.

For the past few years they made the flu shot mandatory “or wear a mask”. I hate the flu shot. It makes me sick, i dont care what they say. It does make me sick. I know my body. Never had a flu shot before and never got the flu. Im a carp lol.

This year I opted out of the flu shot. “Whaddya gonna do? Make me wear a mask? Make me wear a third mask and two face shields?“  LOL Im not the only one.

They changed the rule now, get it or get fired. So i got the flu shot. There was a huge line of nurses etc, that had the same idea i did, on the last day to get our flu shot. Admittedly, I did not get sick this year from it. But this is the first year i didnt get sick.

When i started my job a bunch of years ago, they asked if i had a Tdap vaxx. At the time, i didnt even know what it was. But this was my employee health visit for a new job. So i took it. Not only did it HURT a lot, but i was in bed for three days sick. I got titers (bloodwork to see what you are immune to), and all of mine were good. I know this because i got my paperwork to take to another job. Why did i need a Tdap for childhood vaccines that not only i received and had proof of, but my titers proved it on top??

When my daughter was a kid, the school nurse called me about her not having a chicken pox vaccine. Im like, but she had the chicken pox. The school nurse wants proof. Threatened to “call someone” Im like, shes 7, ask her lol. Carolyn went on a whole long story and showed her all her chicken pox scars lol.

So get that vaxx, and now need a booster every ten years. Are you going to realistically remember to do that every ten years for the rest of your life? Or just get the actual chicken pox when you are 7 and be proud of your chicken pox scars lol (as a kid). Get your last booster as required in college, now years later you are 32 with a kid that has it, oh crap, did you get your booster ten years ago? No? Now chicken pox is deadly for you as an adult.

I am not against it (covid vaccine) totally. I know vaccines have eradicated so many deadly diseases. I agree with some vaccines, and not others. I just feel like this one is rushed. Give it to ppl that want it first. Dont make me take it.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Jersey Girl said:


> I for one am not lining up to take a vaccine developed in record time.


 Me neither. My brother, the epidemiologist, was distantly involved with the development of the first H1N1 flu vaccine during Gerald Ford's administration. It killed more trusting citizens than the flu because, for political and Big Pharmco profit reasons, it was rushed to market before being fully tested. He wrote a novel about it... a "bio-terrorism thriller".


----------



## Obsidian

Zany_in_CO said:


> Me neither. My brother, the epidemiologist, was distantly involved with the development of the first H1N1 flu vaccine during Gerald Ford's administration. It killed more trusting citizens than the flu because, for political and Big Pharmco profit reasons, it was rushed to market before being tested. He wrote a novel about it... a "bio-terrorism thriller".
> 
> View attachment 51739



Science has came a long way since then and the covid vaccines have been tested, no one has died.

I personally can't wait to get in line for vaccines and I hope the government makes them mandatory.


----------



## beckster51

Obsidian said:


> Science has came a long way since then and the covid vaccines have been tested, no one has died.
> 
> I personally can't wait to get in line for vaccines and I hope the government makes them mandatory.



Me, too, Obsidian!  I am a nurse, and I have been  closely following development of the vaccines.  They stop a drug/vaccine trial if anyone has anything happen that is serious to determine if it has anything to do with the drug/vaccine.  So stopping trials is a common occurrence.  If they meet the FDA vaccine requirements, then they should be as safe as any vaccine currently used at present.  They do have to be approved for emergency use, which is yet another set of criteria, and none have been approved as of yet.  It is normal to be a bit nervous about it, I am, too.  But at my age, my chances are better with an approved vaccine than Covid.  I am old enough to remember when you could not start school without a current shot record, period, no excuses.  That is why the generation below me did not have to contend with hardly any childhood communicable diseases, which is no longer the case.  I don't mean to sound like I am on my soapbox, and I don't want to get a discussion about this started.  But to put this in perspective, many, many, many more people have died from diseases than vaccines.  
Oh, and here is a fascinating article about what Thanksgiving was like in 1918.  I also posted this in the holiday/covid thread.  

We're celebrating Thanksgiving amid a pandemic. Here's how we did it in 1918 — and what happened next


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Obsidian said:


> Science has came a long way since then...


Just to put a fine point on it, for me, it isn't about the science, it's about the "Deciders"... those who make the decision of when the vaccine is ready to be distributed to the public. The problems with the first H1N1 vaccine didn't become apparent until after the vaccination program was well under way. These things take time, and patience, to be reasonably sure that the vaccine will do no harm. We're talking a year at least.


----------



## violets2217

I Enjoy watching The Daily Show and Trevor Noah. He’s always asking the questions in my head and getting answers!


----------



## paradisi

There's a good discussion of the actual chance of acquiring Guillan Barre from this vaccine (GB exists in every country anyway and you can get it after surgery for example) here, where the author ought to alleviate fears about this vaccine. (They *do* make new flu vax in under a year every year now..)
Swine Flu Vaccine Fearmongering





Zany_in_CO said:


> Me neither. My brother, the epidemiologist, was distantly involved with the development of the first N1 flu vaccine during Gerald Ford's administration. It killed more trusting citizens than the flu because, for political and Big Pharmco profit reasons, it was rushed to market before being fully tested. He wrote a novel about it... a "bio-terrorism thriller".
> 
> View attachment 51739


----------



## linne1gi

Zany_in_CO said:


> Me neither. My brother, the epidemiologist, was distantly involved with the development of the first H1N1 flu vaccine during Gerald Ford's administration. It killed more trusting citizens than the flu because, for political and Big Pharmco profit reasons, it was rushed to market before being fully tested. He wrote a novel about it... a "bio-terrorism thriller".
> 
> View attachment 51739


I have two high school classmates who were involved in the clinical trials.  One was in the Moderna trial and one was in the AstraZenica trial.  Obviously we are all the same general age (69-70).  Both of my friends fared well in the trials with a little arm soreness being the major complaint, and one had a headache for 2 days after the 2nd vaccine dose.  Because I am a registered nurse (still working), AND older than 65, I would be in the first wave of people to be vaccinated.  I am going to believe in the vaccine, that the FDA wouldn't approve it if it weren't safe and effective and I am watching Dr. Fauci to see what he thinks.  Like Kim, the flu vaccine (and this vaccine) is mandatory if I want to continue working (I plan to retire next year after I turn 70).  So, my guess is I will be taking it - I do pray it is safe.


----------



## Obsidian

My test came back negative. I'm relieved not to have exposed my family. It was a big wake up call that I need to be more careful.


----------



## cmzaha

Up until about 3 yrs ago I never had the flu and never received flu shots, then I came down with the flu. Except when I had Meningitis in 1977 I can say I have never been so sick so I now believe in flu shots. Also, I will can I have never felt like I did before I came down with the flu and my cardiologist believes my heat problem was caused by the flu virus I had. It also makes me think I may not come out well if I were to contract covid so I will probably risk the vaccine.


----------



## Obsidian

Our region finally passed a mask mandate, the first since this all started.

I really didn't think many people would actually follow the mandate since masks are pretty political here and its a red state but surprisingly, about 90% at the grocers were masked.

I was really glad to see it but at the same time, it sad that adults can't figure out how to stay safe on their own.


----------



## earlene

My MIL has tested positive as of Wednesday, we learned yesterday, but she is asymptomatic. Staff had called & left a message that night, but we missed the call; called yesterday morning, then called his brother to let him know & he called MIL's sister to let her know.  Apparently, the occupancy in her nursing home is low enough, that they have a designated CoVid wing.  We don't know if she is sharing a room or single; Hubby didn't think to ask. We will have to call to find out if her phone was transferred to her new room.

MIL's advance directives are for palliative care only, so hopefully she remains asymptomatic with a mild case & complication-free, because we don't think her compromised respiratory system would fare well.

However, over the past few weeks she has been showing signs that for her, the veil between life and the hereafter is thinning.  We hear it in the things she says when talking on the phone.   So she may be more ready for this than we are.  I really wish she wasn't so isolated.  She has always been a very social person.


----------



## cmzaha

I am so sorry to hear that, it is very frightening when it hits the facilities. I will keep your MIL in my prayers, it is so hard when you can do nothing.


----------



## beckster51

earlene said:


> My MIL has tested positive as of Wednesday, we learned yesterday, but she is asymptomatic. Staff had called & left a message that night, but we missed the call; called yesterday morning, then called his brother to let him know & he called MIL's sister to let her know.  Apparently, the occupancy in her nursing home is low enough, that they have a designated CoVid wing.  We don't know if she is sharing a room or single; Hubby didn't think to ask. We will have to call to find out if her phone was transferred to her new room.
> 
> MIL's advance directives are for palliative care only, so hopefully she remains asymptomatic with a mild case & complication-free, because we don't think her compromised respiratory system would fare well.
> 
> However, over the past few weeks she has been showing signs that for her, the veil between life and the hereafter is thinning.  We hear it in the things she says when talking on the phone.   So she may be more ready for this than we are.  I really wish she wasn't so isolated.  She has always been a very social person.


Yes, it is a bit frightening when people start speaking as though they have one foot beyond the veil, but it may be the result of extreme isolation.  I really hate hearing that she is positive.  Maybe she will have a mild course.  I certainly hope so.  It's really hard on you and your husband, sitting around thinking about her without being able to do anything.  I will be thinking of you all.  Take care.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I still have fairly vivid memories from my childhood of being deliriously ill with the measles and a mild case of scarlet fever and then in my 20s with a major bout of flu. I received both of the polio vaccines as a child, but had an older friend across the street for whom the vaccines came too late.  She walked with leg braces.  Personally, I’m all for vaccines and flu shots. I don’t worry about the speed of development of the COVID-19 vaccines, which is an outcome (blessing) of the massive amount of funding, the person power devoted to the effort, the state of science knowledge in various contributing fields, an increasing focus on trans disciplinary/team science approaches for tackling complex problems, and the massive improvements in methods (rapid, more efficient) and computing power over the decade before the pandemic started. With the close on-going scrutiny of the testing protocols and outcomes, I look forward to getting vaccinated when the opportunity comes my way.


----------



## lenarenee

violets2217 said:


> Lol... I'm not either. I'm not into conspiracy theories or whatever....and I vaccinate my kids and what not. But if companies keep stopping the trials.... there is a reason. I'ma gonna wait it out!!! But I'm also not a scientist.... what so I know!



It's normal and expected to have these interruptions in the trials - several of them in fact...to investigate every little suspected anomaly.   Stopping the trials is proof to me that there's good and proper science going on. 

My good friend is a virologist, researcher, inventor. She and her partner are people who invented the fast process of mapping the genome of viruses and bacteria.....which is one reason why they've been able to formulate potential vaccines so quickly....what took months....now only took days or hours (I don't remember which....my eyes kind of glass over when she gets that deep into her science.) 

 When the vaccine is out - I'll have her advice to help me decide which vaccine and when - which is a relief because I'm so behind on the science.


----------



## linne1gi

I live in a 55+ community in South Florida.  We were locked down here for about 4 months. And by locked down, I mean all our amenities were closed.  Pool, tennis courts, pickleball court, clubhouse and gym.  They started slowly reopening in June, and it has been pretty good.  Pool, tennis and gym have been open and we have been going there, mindfully practicing social distancing and wearing masks, of course.  Unfortunately, we just heard that there are a number of people here who have recently been diagnosed with Covid (they are all sick) - and at least one of them was a tennis player.  So, everything is now closed again, we don't know for how long.    I really don't understand why people don't wear masks.  It just drives me nuts!!


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> I live in a 55+ community in South Florida.  We were locked down here for about 4 months. And by locked down, I mean all our amenities were closed.  Pool, tennis courts, pickleball court, clubhouse and gym.  They started slowly reopening in June, and it has been pretty good.  Pool, tennis and gym have been open and we have been going there, mindfully practicing social distancing and wearing masks, of course.  Unfortunately, we just heard that there are a number of people here who have recently been diagnosed with Covid (they are all sick) - and at least one of them was a tennis player.  So, everything is now closed again, we don't know for how long.    I really don't understand why people don't wear masks.  It just drives me nuts!!


I, too, have been trying to suss out what the individual reasoning or psychology is regarding not wanting to wear a mask when the science is very strong that it helps to decrease transmission.   Is it just a case of ignorance or misinformation?  If anyone here can explain it to me, I would appreciate it.  It is making my head explode about once a week.


----------



## beckster51

Mobjack Bay said:


> I still have fairly vivid memories from my childhood of being deliriously ill with the measles and a mild case of scarlet fever and then in my 20s with a major bout of flu. I received both of the polio vaccines as a child, but had an older friend across the street for whom the vaccines came too late.  She walked with leg braces.  Personally, I’m all for vaccines and flu shots. I don’t worry about the speed of development of the COVID-19 vaccines, which is an outcome (blessing) of the massive amount of funding, the person power devoted to the effort, the state of science knowledge in various contributing fields, an increasing focus on trans disciplinary/team science approaches for tackling complex problems, and the massive improvements in methods (rapid, more efficient) and computing power over the decade before the pandemic started. With the close on-going scrutiny of the testing protocols and outcomes, I look forward to getting vaccinated when the opportunity comes my way.


Very eloquently said!  These are vaccines made by a method never before used, and may be the model for how all vaccines are made in the future.  Rapid vaccine development will greatly benefit mankind in the future.  This is not the last nasty virus we will see, unfortunately, so it is so encouraging to see the science progress so quickly and efficiently.  Necessity is indeed the mother of invention.


----------



## linne1gi

beckster51 said:


> I, too, have been trying to suss out what the individual reasoning or psychology is regarding not wanting to wear a mask when the science is very strong that it helps to decrease transmission.   Is it just a case of ignorance or misinformation?  If anyone here can explain it to me, I would appreciate it.  It is making my head explode about once a week.


I can't even.  I'm a nurse and we wear an N-95 mask, with a level 2 surgical mask over that, with eye protection, hair covering, shoe covering, gown, and gloves.  All this cr*p is hotter than Hades, and the general public is complaining about just putting on a mask - (it infringes on their constitutional rights!) - you have gotten me started now.   For me, I say wearing a mask is much better and nicer than wearing a ventilator.   Rant over, thanks for letting me.


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> I can't even.  I'm a nurse and we wear an N-95 mask, with a level 2 surgical mask over that, with eye protection, hair covering, shoe covering, gown, and gloves.  All this cr*p is hotter than Hades, and the general public is complaining about just putting on a mask - (it infringes on their constitutional rights!) - you have gotten me started now.   For me, I say wearing a mask is much better and nicer than wearing a ventilator.   Rant over, thanks for letting me.


Well, I am a nurse, too, although retired.  During my career, I worked with a lot of contagious patients, including drug resistant TB, and I was never resistant to wearing protective equipment.  Maybe it is our "up close and personal" experience, but I don't understand why the general public doesn't want to hear what the experts have to say.  I thought your rant was very short - LOL.  Ask my husband, who is a doctor, how long and passionate some of my rants have been!  It doesn't serve any purpose to rant, but it certainly makes me feel better, sometimes.


----------



## linne1gi

beckster51 said:


> Well, I am a nurse, too, although retired.  During my career, I worked with a lot of contagious patients, including drug resistant TB, and I was never resistant to wearing protective equipment.  Maybe it is our "up close and personal" experience, but I don't understand why the general public doesn't want to hear what the experts have to say.  I thought your rant was very short - LOL.  Ask my husband, who is a doctor, how long and passionate some of my rants have been!  It doesn't serve any purpose to rant, but it certainly makes me feel better, sometimes.


This is especially funny, because my husband is a doctor also, a retired Psychiatrist.  He's heard more than his fair share of my rants in the 46 years we've been married.


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> This is especially funny, because my husband is a doctor also, a retired Psychiatrist.  He's heard more than his fair share of my rants in the 46 years we've been married.


That is funny.  My husband gets this patient look on his face when I start a rant.  He has put up with a lot of rants as well, and he has no answers for me.  Perhaps yours does!


----------



## linne1gi

beckster51 said:


> That is funny.  My husband gets this patient look on his face when I start a rant.  He has put up with a lot of rants as well, and he has no answers for me.  Perhaps yours does!


He does, but I don't like hearing them.


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> He does, but I don't like hearing them.


You made me laugh out loud very early on a Saturday morning.  My husband's standard answer is, "it's human nature".  Probably true, not very satisfying.


----------



## Catscankim

Not sure if this is corona related, i feel like patients and families are getting more and more aggressive towards the staff. Three times this week alone i had to call for security.

Been doing my job for 25 years. I am not a fragile wallflower...i have a pretty thick skin, but they are wearing me down.

First girl earlier this week brings in her baby because she DROPPED him....4weeks old. I go to get them, first words...”Its about bleeping time!” After the scan, she asks what the lead apron was for, “to protect you from the radiation”. “Oh you didnt tell me you were giving us radiation you bleeping bleep bleep.” All up in my face threatening me with physical harm, because apparently i should have gotten informed consent for the xrays. (Well maybe you shouldnt have dropped your newborn on a tile floor you bleeping bleep ) <i didnt say that lol. 

Next woman, there with her 17 y/o for menstrual problems, in the middle of the night. Shes mad that i wont let her back behind the glass with me. I gave her three options...stay in the room with your daughter, i can take you back to the er to wait, or i can get you a chair to wait outside the door. Nothing was good enough. She was ready for a fight the minute i walked into the room to get them. Poor kid kept asking her to stop. All i could do is stand there listening to her telling me how shes gonna kick my (butt) and F my HIPPA rules. She saw my name on my badge and kept pacing back and forth like a caged animal repeating my first and last name over and over (i really hate having my last name on my badge for this reason). She also accused me of exposing them to covid because i had only one mask on and not two. Neither of them had masks on, and declined when i gave them masks...

Last night....guy who got beat up with .....antlers (????) true story lol. That transpired with a woman that he caught in the act with another man. That went from zero to sixty quick when i got him into my department. I was still putting my gloves on when he started screaming that i wacked him in the head “with that” he pointed at...the pillow?? Lol. Started yelling that his head was bleeding because i hit him with the pillow. Ok we can give him credit, it was a foam pillow lol, but it also could have been caused by ummmm, the antlers she beat him up with???

All 3 times i just called over to the er to have the police to come over...no fanfare. I could have called a code “gray”, which means its a big deal and someone is getting arrested in the end. I just assume or hope that they are just stressed about being in the hospital to begin with. Having police presence usually calms it down, except last nights guy, but at least i wasnt the next one “to go out tonight in a body bag“ as he promised...

Apparently they are all going to have my job on monday...lol. Take it at this point. You can have it. I am exhausted

I do think this is covid related. Its is just progressively getting worse. People are so much more angry or aggressive lately. Maybe the state of affairs? In 25 years i have never felt so threatened in my job.


----------



## linne1gi

I’m so sorry you had this happen. I agree with you people have no patience, it’s all about them these days. I’m getting fed up as well and my stories aren’t as good as yours! Just the general aggression seems to be accelerating. We require everyone in our facility to wear a mask and so many give us a hard time. Ok, go outside and wait, otherwise wear the **** mask.  I am praying this gets better when a vaccine is finally available.


----------



## earlene

beckster51 said:


> I, too, have been trying to suss out what the individual reasoning or psychology is regarding not wanting to wear a mask when the science is very strong that it helps to decrease transmission.   Is it just a case of ignorance or misinformation?  If anyone here can explain it to me, I would appreciate it.  It is making my head explode about once a week.



I don't think it's worth your head exploding. We can't change the minds of the adamantly ignorant, science denouncers, magical thinkers, political radicals, or the downright ballistically angry, and sometimes possibly mentally challenged. I don't mean any of that in a bad way, but sometimes in some situations one of those 'labels' I used is part of the equation. Understanding can go a long way in our learning tolerance and forgiveness, but it's not going to change the other person. Unless it's putting me or my loved ones at risk, I have had to practice distancing myself rather than engagement.



linne1gi said:


> I can't even.  I'm a nurse and we wear an N-95 mask, with a level 2 surgical mask over that, with eye protection, hair covering, shoe covering, gown, and gloves.  All this cr*p is hotter than Hades, and the general public is complaining about just putting on a mask - (it infringes on their constitutional rights!) - you have gotten me started now.   For me, I say wearing a mask is much better and nicer than wearing a ventilator.   Rant over, thanks for letting me.



What bothers me are the medical and medical ancillary folks who complain about complying and even who tell the public and even their own patients that masks are useless or super wasteful or just plain complain that they have to wear them in the first place.  Yes, twice now I've had to listen to that from: 1. one of medical doctors (my former cardiologist in San Antonio); 2. the tech who gave Hubby & I our flu vaccinations (here in town).  I took my doctor's words with a grain of salt.  I worked with TB patients, too, as well as other infectious diseases.  I probably wore a mask more hours during my nursing career than said cardiologist ever dreamed of wearing in his career (still young, he is.)  And the pharmacy tech?  Well Hubby and I were so appalled by his attitude, that I reported him to the facility and to corporate; his attitude and complaints were certainly something I would have addressed when I was a Charge Nurse; in fact I did have to do that with a couple of employees with those kinds of attitudes in the workplace.



Catscankim said:


> Not sure if this is corona related, i feel like patients and families are getting more and more aggressive towards the staff. Three times this week alone i had to call for security.
> 
> First girl earlier this week brings in her baby because she DROPPED him....4weeks old. I go to get them, first words...”Its about bleeping time!” After the scan, she asks what the lead apron was for, “to protect you from the radiation”. “Oh you didnt tell me you were giving us radiation you bleeping bleep bleep.” All up in my face threatening me with physical harm, because apparently i should have gotten informed consent for the xrays. (Well maybe you shouldnt have dropped your newborn on a tile floor you bleeping bleep ) <i didnt say that lol.
> 
> Next woman, there with her 17 y/o for menstrual problems, in the middle of the night. Shes mad that i wont let her back behind the glass with me. I gave her three options...stay in the room with your daughter, i can take you back to the er to wait, or i can get you a chair to wait outside the door. Nothing was good enough. She was ready for a fight the minute i walked into the room to get them. Poor kid kept asking her to stop. All i could do is stand there listening to her telling me how shes gonna kick my (butt) and F my HIPPA rules. She saw my name on my badge and kept pacing back and forth like a caged animal repeating my first and last name over and over (i really hate having my last name on my badge for this reason). She also accused me of exposing them to covid because i had only one mask on and not two. Neither of them had masks on, and declined when i gave them masks...
> 
> Last night....guy who got beat up with .....antlers (????) true story lol. That transpired with a woman that he caught in the act with another man. That went from zero to sixty quick when i got him into my department. I was still putting my gloves on when he started screaming that i wacked him in the head “with that” he pointed at...the pillow?? Lol. Started yelling that his head was bleeding because i hit him with the pillow. Ok we can give him credit, it was a foam pillow lol, but it also could have been caused by ummmm, the antlers she beat him up with???
> 
> All 3 times i just called over to the er to have the police to come over...no fanfare. I could have called a code “gray”, which means its a big deal and someone is getting arrested in the end. I just assume or hope that they are just stressed about being in the hospital to begin with. Having police presence usually calms it down, except last nights guy, but at least i wasnt the next one “to go out tonight in a body bag“ as he promised...
> 
> Apparently they are all going to have my job on monday...lol. Take it at this point. You can have it. I am exhausted
> 
> I do think this is covid related. Its is just progressively getting worse. People are so much more angry or aggressive lately. Maybe the state of affairs? In 25 years i have never felt so threatened in my job.


*Kim*, that is so uncalled for, but I am sure you understand the underlying frustration the public is feeling over all this stuff going on, and how it only makes badly behaving indiduals behave even more badly. I know, you're probably thinking, just as I sometimes do, "so what, deal with it, you imbecilic morons!"  

Dropped her baby boy on the tile floor on it's head!? OMG, how scary is that?

Bad Mama with embarrassed teen, OMG, how awful for that young girl! Okay maybe she was just at the end of her rope, but that is no excuse for _threatening you_ or using _foul language_. When the public uses foul language &/or makes any sort of threat toward my husband or his co-workers, the police are called immediately. No exception. There is always an officer on premises, so it's no waiting. Raging anger can erupt into physical violence so unexpectedly fast, you have to protect yourself and everyone else around you, in such situations. If the customer has to deal with the police for their behavior, that is on them, not the person who that were threatening. In this case, I would have called the code gray. There were threats accompanied by foul language. You were alone, right? Or was that flaky newbie around to assist?

And, pardon my chuckling, but the guy got beat up with a set of antlers?  How did you maintain a straight face?! Talk about adding insult to injury, though; first he catches them in the act, then she actually beats him up with whatever was close at hand?  God, I hope he's not stupid enough to take her back into his life! He is probably going to get ribbed about that incident by his friends for the rest of his life!


----------



## DKing

Oh wow!  It is stressful enough for you having to go in and do your job under these trying times, but to have so many patients threatening you for trying to help them would make it difficult to want to come in.  People in general seem to be acting up.  Not all of them, but definitely a certain type.  It is usually the ones who think their civil liberties are being stolen from them because they have to wear a mask and follow rules meant to protect them and their loved ones.  Or maybe it is just the chaotic state of the world currently, stressing everyone out.  Between covid and political unrest, the world just doesn't seem quite right currently.  
I hope things improve for you soon!  People need to learn to relax some and be respectful of professional trying to do a job.  Take care and stay safe!


----------



## Catscankim

@earlene ... dropping babies is almost its own pandemic. Its sad and i get at least one a day. We get a lot of “she rolled off the bed” or changing table ...really? a two week old, or even 4 did not ROLL anywhere. I was 19 when i had my kid, and i treated her like a fine piece of china. I go to get these babies and am like I WILL CARRY HER. I cant even get started lol. Whole different discussion.

The girl was so embarrassed. If she were a few months older, she would have been in our adult ER, not the Pedi. Without mom. The kid was so sweet, and mom was for lack of a better word..ghetto.

And dude with the antlers lol. It wasnt even his girlfriend lol. It was his friends gf. He was a skinhead, white guy, with teardrop tatoos on his face. Very gangster. We get a lot of gangster types, but i have never had a problem, especially if they are actually sick. Nothing but yes ma’am no ma’am.

We were talking about it in the ER, the country is stressed or something. People dont act like this to other ppl normally. Like i said, i have been doing this for a long time, and mostly in inner city hospitals. I have never been treated so bad as i have lately. We are all blaming covid.

Edit....tv has nothing on the actual life in the er lol. I need to write a book “you cant make this stuff up”.


----------



## Marsi

masks and varying travel restrictions (down to 5km travel bubbles and night time curfews) were made mandatory here
now we are 30 days without a new case where i am and theres no active cases
we still all wear masks inside shops and theres still some restrictions on movement (hopefully lifting soon)

it is strange to see everyone who hasnt driven for months drive like learner drivers (chaos)


----------



## linne1gi

We went up to Vero Beach this afternoon just for a drive and to get out of the house for a bit.  We went to Mulligans (outside dining) for an ear dinner - not one person was wearing a mask. I’m not talking about people dining, but people walking about on the street.


----------



## violets2217

linne1gi said:


> We went up to Vero Beach this afternoon just for a drive and to get out of the house for a bit.


You were just south of me! Howdy neighbor!   Yep! masks are so silly! At least that the consensus of all the visiting guest at my hotel when I point out that they need to get their mask before I help them...


----------



## linne1gi

Thank you for helping the idiots of this world.


----------



## AliOop

Interesting article re: C19 and the current public policies.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@Catscankim @beckster51 @linne1gi and @earlene - I just want you all to know that I think nurses are the closest thing we have to angels on this earth ❤ ❤ ❤


----------



## Catscankim

Mobjack Bay said:


> @Catscankim @beckster51 @linne1gi and @earlene - I just want you all to know that I think nurses are the closest thing we have to angels on this earth ❤ ❤ ❤


Awww...not a nurse. I am a CT Tech, but in the trenches nonetheless, so thank you


----------



## beckster51

Mobjack Bay said:


> @Catscankim @beckster51 @linne1gi and @earlene - I just want you all to know that I think nurses are the closest thing we have to angels on this earth ❤ ❤ ❤


I appreciate your kind words very much, even though I no longer work in the hospital.  Those that do these days are truly the best of us.


----------



## linne1gi

beckster51 said:


> I appreciate your kind words very much, even though I no longer work in the hospital.  Those that do these days are truly the best of us.


That's really kind of you to say.


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> That's really kind of you to say.


It's true!


----------



## Zany_in_CO

My sister lives in Tacoma with her son (fireman, ENT) and DIL (nurse practitioner). In her latest Email, she wrote this about her DIL,  _"She’s working tonight: no beds, when they find beds, no nurses. It’s a mess."_ It makes me wish I could do more than just hope and pray...


----------



## earlene

Mobjack Bay said:


> @Catscankim @beckster51 @linne1gi and @earlene - I just want you all to know that I think nurses are the closest thing we have to angels on this earth ❤ ❤ ❤



There are a lot of nurses here on the forum; I had no idea how many until lately.  We even had a posting member who was a doctor a couple of years ago, I think it was.  We have a lot of nurses in our family, on my side and on my husband's side.  

Interesting facts:  There are more than 20 million nurses worldwide.  There were over 4 million Registered Nurses in the US and just under a million LVN/LPNs (Oct 2019). RNs outnumber doctors about 3:1, in the US.  The average RN is between 48 & 50 years of age.*

There is a nursing shortage in the US and it is only getting worse with this pandemic.  Part of the reason for the shortage is the aging population of nurses and the fact that we are not being replaced in numbers equal to our retirees.  In 2019 in the US, over 80 thousand qualified applicants were turned away from Baccalaureate & Graduate Nursing Programs for the 2019-2020 enrollment period because there were not enough Instructors and Preceptors available to teach the applicants, and to a lesser degree, insufficient classroom space, clinical sites and budget constraints.  (AACN)

*(National Council of State Boards of Nursing [NCSBN], 2020)



Zany_in_CO said:


> My sister lives in Tacoma with her son (fireman, ENT) and DIL (nurse practitioner). In her latest Email, she wrote this about her DIL,  _"She’s working tonight: no beds, when they find beds, no nurses. It’s a mess."_ It makes me wish I could do more than just hope and pray...



Another small world moment.  I also have family in Tacoma.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

My sister recently retired from her job as an LPN.  Her hospitals always seemed to be incredibly short-staffed. I think they got much more from her than what they paid for.


----------



## Angie Gail

violets2217 said:


> I sooooo hope not! But I did read an article were Dr. Fauci (who I love to pieces!!!) said the vaccine would be ready for all by maybe April/May. So I've been curious if everyone would take it...Like the flu shot and all! I was a bit leery about it being given so early in the trials in some countries. But anyways... Dr. Fauci said he'd take it!!!


I don't have any comorbidities and am not taking a vaccine that has not had a proper testing time for a virus with a 99% survival rate. I haven't taken many prescription meds in my life (I'm 43 and healthy) but I have taken two that I and many others had bad side effects from and have since been banned. Both passed FDA approval although there was a controversy around one because it was hastily approved and officials were bribed to do it. I don't have much faith in the FDA or Dr. Fauci.


----------



## Angie Gail

Obsidian said:


> Science has came a long way since then and the covid vaccines have been tested, no one has died.
> 
> I personally can't wait to get in line for vaccines and I hope the government makes them mandatory.


That's a terrifying thought that any level of government would make it mandatory that you take something. What happened to my body, my choice?


----------



## Angie Gail

beckster51 said:


> I, too, have been trying to suss out what the individual reasoning or psychology is regarding not wanting to wear a mask when the science is very strong that it helps to decrease transmission.   Is it just a case of ignorance or misinformation?  If anyone here can explain it to me, I would appreciate it.  It is making my head explode about once a week.


Dr. Fauci has flip-flopped on this multiple times telling people not to wear masks and then saying to wear them. I'm neither ignorant nor misinformed and I don't think they do much good really. Face shields probably work better as some people have reported the size of the virus particles are small enough to pass through the weave of masks.


----------



## Marsi

Where i am it was told to us that the masks are more to protect others
if i have a virus and am wearing a mask i am less able to spread my infectious droplets
so more protect others by wearing a mask than protection for the mask wearer

i like face shields too
ima soaper 
(no splatters)

my doctor wears both
(a face shield and masks)


----------



## Obsidian

Yes, masks are more to stop spread from the sick. 
Since so many people are asymptomatic, without a mask, they go around spreading it everywhere


----------



## Mobjack Bay

The most recent science articles I’m reading are honing in on a 0.2% COVID-19 mortality rate for the population in general.  That’s 2 individuals in 1000.  But, the rate looks higher for those over 70, more like 4% or 4 in every 100 individuals. The studies are based on serological testing for antibodies and if I recall correctly, at least 83 studies have been through peer review and published. This has led a large international group of epidemiologists and public health officials to publish the *Barrington Declaration*, which calls for more emphasis on what they call “focused protection.” They’re very worried about the mental health implications of continuing lockdowns and the effects on the very poor.

I’m not all that far from 70, but generally in very good health.  Based on what I know so far, I will likely opt in for vaccination when it becomes available.


----------



## DKing

Angie Gail said:


> Dr. Fauci has flip-flopped on this multiple times telling people not to wear masks and then saying to wear them. I'm neither ignorant nor misinformed and I don't think they do much good really. Face shields probably work better as some people have reported the size of the virus particles are small enough to pass through the weave of masks.


You can't fault Dr Fauci for telling people not to wear masks in the beginning as at that point people were in panic mode and either buying up all the PPE (which hospitals and long term care homes, etc needed) or they were also stealing these items from these places.  Until there were appropriate supplies in place it was best not to have everyone panic purchasing, especially while the virus numbers were low.  The toilet paper and grocery shortages were bad enough to deal with.  It was hard enough for the medical professionals, that really needed the PPE, to secure their sources and they didn't need more competition from the general public.


----------



## linne1gi

Angie Gail said:


> Dr. Fauci has flip-flopped on this multiple times telling people not to wear masks and then saying to wear them. I'm neither ignorant nor misinformed and I don't think they do much good really. Face shields probably work better as some people have reported the size of the virus particles are small enough to pass through the weave of masks.


Dr. Fauci has not "flip-flopped" on mask wearing.  As @DKing said, In the beginning, he said not to wear masks, but changed his remarks when several studies noted that masks are beneficial.  When those studies suggested that mask wearing will help bring down the numbers, he agreed and has since stressed mask wearing.  He follows the science.  The problem with face shields is that a lot of virus particles fall out of those - there is nothing on the bottom of the shields to contain virus particles.  Wearing a mask AND a face shield will definitely give you better protection.  

@AngieGail, To my knowledge, they are not going to force you to get vaccinated.  The FDA panel that oversees vaccine approval are dedicated knowledgeable people who aren't just going to rubber stamp this vaccine.  They will spend weeks just evaluating the studies that have been done.  I personally have several friends (3) who were involved in this vaccine study and they are doing great.  They were all in the Moderna study, and they are all in my age group (69-70).  Personally I trust vaccines, I was born at a time when Polio was rampant and my parents rushed to get me the Polio vaccine when it became available - one of my friends' parents didn't and she died (at age 10) of complications of Polio.  I've also had to get many vaccines as I am a registered nurse - so they are mandatory.  I'm hoping to be first in line when they start giving them out.  Yes, this disease seems to affect the elderly more often (I'm definitely getting there!), but many young people have died or have multiple sequelae from this virus.  One of the doctors I work with got Covid in April - he's still experiencing shortness of breath and now has an enlarged heart - he's 43.  Another nurse friend who got it (she was one of the nurses who volunteered to go to NY when they were having such an overwhelming number of cases), now has many problems - she had numerous blood clots, and almost lost her legs - she still isn't back to work and it has been 8 months since she had the virus - she is 26, by the way.  

I'm just saying, there's not a whole lot of rhyme or reason to this disease - some that get it do fine and others do poorly or die.  And mask wearing does help to bring down the number of new infections.  As I understand this, Covid is going to be with us for a long time, so we may as well get used to wearing masks - even if only to protect our loved ones.  Or don't  wear a mask - because after all "you" are the most important person there is, no one else matters.


----------



## AliOop

@Mobjack Bay I also read about the Barrington Declaration, and felt like it made a lot of sense. The idea is to taylor the remedies to the science, which would mean keeping schools open, and focusing the majority of protection, prevention, and cure towards those who are most at risk.

@linne1gi Not everyone who is refusing to mask up is doing so out of selfishness. Two of my dear friends have problems masking up. One has severe asthma, and simply cannot get enough oxygen if she wears a mask. A face shield is mildly better, but her oxygen levels still drop significantly. The other has asthma + PTSD from severe childhood trauma. Anything on or over any part of her face triggers horrible flashbacks, disassociation, and potential for psych hospitalization to restabilize her.

To be clear, I'm not anti-mask by any means. But please don't assume that everyone who is maskless is doing so out of selfishness or stupidity. It makes the divisions between all of us worse, and needlessly so.


----------



## linne1gi

AliOop said:


> @Mobjack Bay I also read about the Barrington Declaration, and felt like it made a lot of sense. The idea is to taylor the remedies to the science, which would mean keeping schools open, and focusing the majority of protection, prevention, and cure towards those who are most at risk.
> 
> @linne1gi Not everyone who is refusing to mask up is doing so out of selfishness. Two of my dear friends have problems masking up. One has severe asthma, and simply cannot get enough oxygen if she wears a mask. A face shield is mildly better, but her oxygen levels still drop significantly. The other has asthma + PTSD from severe childhood trauma. Anything on or over any part of her face triggers horrible flashbacks, disassociation, and potential for psych hospitalization to restabilize her.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not anti-mask by any means. But please don't assume that everyone who is maskless is doing so out of selfishness or stupidity. It makes the divisions between all of us worse, and needlessly so.


Then I would suggest that the people who cannot wear a mask for whatever reason, stay out of crowded indoor places - because that is where most people get the virus.   And I see plenty of people who are not wearing masks (and I talk to many people who won't wear a mask, "because, it's stupid, and a violation of my civil rights") that seem plenty healthy, but just won't wear them (oftentimes for political reasons) and it IS just plain dumb.  But honestly in my line of work, I see so many people who are anti-maskers and it just makes me crazy.


----------



## paradisi

The Barrington Declaration was astroturfed by rightwing political orgs and is very bad science.  Their agenda is not public health and they cherry picked their "evidence".

To wit:

A Right-Wing Think Tank Is Behind the Controversial Great Barrington Declaration Calling for COVID-19 Herd Immunity - Resilience








						A Right-Wing Think Tank Is Behind the Controversial Great Barrington Declaration Calling for COVID-19 Herd Immunity
					

The fact that the Great Barrington Declaration is now the Trump administration’s official policy is deeply troubling




					www.resilience.org
				




Scientists Slam The Great Barrington Declaration








						Scientists Are Slamming The Great Barrington Declaration’s Call For “Herd Immunity”
					

A week after White House officials met with scientists endorsing herd immunity, dozens of other researchers called it “a dangerous fallacy unsupported by scientific evidence.”




					www.buzzfeednews.com
				




Herd immunity letter signed by fake experts including 'Dr Johnny Bananas' | Coronavirus | The Guardian








						Herd immunity letter signed by fake experts including 'Dr Johnny Bananas'
					

Open letter calling for new Covid-19 strategy also signed by ‘Cominic Dummings’




					www.theguardian.com
				










Mobjack Bay said:


> The most recent science articles I’m reading are honing in on a 0.2% COVID-19 mortality rate for the population in general.  That’s 2 individuals in 1000.  But, the rate looks higher for those over 70, more like 4% or 4 in every 100 individuals. The studies are based on serological testing for antibodies and if I recall correctly, at least 83 studies have been through peer review and published. This has led a large international group of epidemiologists and public health officials to publish the *Barrington Declaration*, which calls for more emphasis on what they call “focused protection.” They’re very worried about the mental health implications of continuing lockdowns and the effects on the very poor.
> 
> I’m not all that far from 70, but generally in very good health.  Based on what I know so far, I will likely opt in for vaccination when it becomes available.


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## AliOop

@paradisi @linne1gi this is exactly why some people are making different choices than others.  Many intelligent, well-intentioned people are on both sides of each debated point, because people don't know who to believe. What many doctors are calling good science, others are calling astroturfing, or a plot of the deep state, etc. 

My point was not to say who is right or who is wrong, but to urge people to consider that (most of) those who disagree with us are doing so out of honest beliefs. You or I may not agree with the basis of their beliefs, but calling them stupid or selfish will do nothing to convince them to believe or behave otherwise. Human nature tends to dig in when confronted with anger and disdain. We also damage our own mental and physical health when we get so frustrated and angry with those who don't make the same choices we do.

If we were to assume that most people are doing the best they can to sift through mountains of conflicting "experts" and information, and that they do care about the well-being of others, then we leave open the possibility of having open, intelligent discussions where each side might learn something from the other... and could leave the conversation respecting one another despite differing views.


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## Mochamommy

LilyJo said:


> With this now seemingly spreading swiftly around the world,  I wondered whether any of our members are directly or indirectly affected?


Indirectly, I have had family members, friends of friends, as well as associates affected by Rona.  I have been staying inside and I am sick of it not being with my family for the holidays and just in self isolation is taking a toll on me however, I hope we will have slowed this pandemic down so that I can get back to some sense of normalcy.


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## linne1gi

Mochamommy said:


> Indirectly, I have had family members, friends of friends, as well as associates affected by Rona.  I have been staying inside and I'm am sick of it not being with my family for the holidays and just in self isolation is taking a toll on me however, I hope we will have slowed this pandemic down so that I can get back to some sense of normalcy.


I’m with you. I haven’t seen my son in almost a year. He and his wife are having a baby in April and we want to stay healthy enough to be with them at that time. I haven’t seen my daughter since March.  In the meantime, Thanksgiving was just my husband and I and Christmas is going to be the same. This is one reason I am sick to death of the anti-maskers.


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## Mobjack Bay

Just to be clear, I wasn’t endorsing the Barrington Declaration or the herd immunity approach. I’m simply trying to assess personal risks as the data improves.  The peer-review system isn’t perfect, but the estimates of mortality/fatality rates are getting better as more studies are published.  We need the numbers to calculate the risks and benefits of different public health/containment policies.  Debate is good, but so is caution when the issue is a pandemic and public health.

I don’t go out without a mask and I wish everyone would wear one for the good of those who are vulnerable.  As far as I’m concerned, it’s a simple act of kindness and consideration for others.  I don’t understand why it’s so controversial.


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## linne1gi

Mobjack Bay said:


> Just to be clear, I wasn’t endorsing the Barrington Declaration or the herd immunity approach. I’m simply trying to assess personal risks as the data improves.  The peer-review system isn’t perfect, but the estimates of mortality/fatality rates are getting better as more studies are published.  We need the numbers to calculate the risks and benefits of different public health/containment policies.  Debate is good, but so is caution when the issue is a pandemic and public health.
> 
> I don’t go out without a mask and I wish everyone would wear one for the good of those who are vulnerable.  As far as I’m concerned, it’s a simple act of kindness and consideration for others.  I don’t understand why it’s so controversial.


I agree, it became a political issue and I keep hoping it will cease.


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## JenBen

Obsidian said:


> Science has came a long way since then and the covid vaccines have been tested, no one has died.
> 
> I personally can't wait to get in line for vaccines and I hope the government makes them mandatory.


Not all pharmaceuticals (including vaccines) have positive reactions for all members of the population.  The results can be deadly.  More troubling however is that thanks to the "National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act" (NCVIA) of 1986, pharmaceutical companies have zero liability for damage caused by this particular category of drug we call a vaccine, even in cases where it has been proven that it was improperly or unhygienically produced.

I think we should give it time and let individuals make the choices they feel are right for them.


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## dibbles

I think it's fine to let people decide for themselves if they want to get vaccinated or not. As I understand it, the federal government is leaving it up to individual states on how they want to manage this. BUT, if that is the case, I also think it is fine for places of business, airlines, schools, etc. require proof of vaccination to enter facilities and I hope that they do. I will get a vaccine when it is available to me. 

We just found out that our neighbor had Covid. It was deer hunting season in November, and everyone at the deer camp ended up with it. Our neighbor (74 years old) just had cold-like symptoms. His brother is in the ICU, and prognosis for him pulling through are not good. Both are otherwise healthy, just older. The sons are 40-50 years old, and also recovered with no problems.


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## paradisi

On safety of vaccines, the vaccine claim reimbursement program (it's instead of lawsuits, and very few % actually claim injury) etc

National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | Official web site of the U.S. Health Resources & Services Administration




__





						National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | HRSA
					






					www.hrsa.gov
				




Vaccine Injury Claims Are Few and Far Between - The New York Times








						Vaccine Injury Claims Are Few and Far Between (Published 2019)
					

Data from a federal program designed to compensate people harmed by vaccines shows how rare it is for someone to claim they were hurt after getting vaccinated.




					www.nytimes.com
				




Vaccine Injury Court: Here's the Truth | Time








						Here's the Truth About the 'Vaccine Injury Court'
					

The anti-vaxxers have been misrepresenting an important, if little-used, law




					time.com


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## The Park Bench

My 25 year old super fit, super healthy son is getting over Covid-19.  He is having difficulty with fatigue, lack of strength and is feeling depressed.  Of course we are over the moon that it wasn't worse.


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## earlene

I am sorry your son has been ill, and has lingering symptoms.  I hope for a full recovery for him.

My MIL is doing surprisingly well!  In her 80's and she does not appear to have any symptoms whatsoever since she tested positive a week ago.  She is quite fortunate.  Her room phone still is not connected, which is irritating, because when go over to talk to her through the double-pane windows, it's really impossible for us to hear each other clearly.


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## linne1gi

The Park Bench said:


> My 25 year old super fit, super healthy son is getting over Covid-19.  He is having difficulty with fatigue, lack of strength and is feeling depressed.  Of course we are over the moon that it wasn't worse.


Thank goodness he’s getting better!


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## Basil

@linne1gi I understand being frustrated. I'm a nurse, one of my daughters is a nurse, another one of my daughters a respiratory therapist, another daughter working in hospitals doing her residency, one son-in-law is an ED Dr, and another son in law is a fireman/EMT. Plus I have another daughter and another son in law working in the schools as teachers.  All day long my phone is going off from one or more of them telling me about their day, who they came in contact with, how many covid pts they have seen, what PPE they don't have, what the shut downs are, etc. etc. etc.  My youngest daughter is married to the fireman and they moved from Florida to Arizona just before the virus hit. They moved to be closer to us again with their 3 year old and 3 month old. They are still with us because they haven't been able to find a house due to the timing. So, we are having to be very careful. My mother is going to have her 90th birthday in two weeks and she's been by herself for the most of the year. I haven't seen my other out of state daughters for a year. It's hard for me to understand why people don't comply as best they can just to protect other people.  I know some people have a reason not to wear a mask, but if it's not a medical (physical or emotional) reason, and it's to vocalize 'rights', that seems to me a dangerous way to stand up for 'freedom'.  It bugs a lot of health care workers and first responders. You're not alone.   As you said, this virus is so unpredictable. That poor 26 year old nurse and all the others who are trying to help while others are trying to make a point. I hope you stay healthy and are able to see that grand baby when it's time.


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## linne1gi

Basil said:


> @linne1gi I understand being frustrated. I'm a nurse, one of my daughters is a nurse, another one of my daughters a respiratory therapist, another daughter working in hospitals doing her residency, one son-in-law is an ED Dr, and another son in law is a fireman/EMT. Plus I have another daughter and another son in law working in the schools as teachers.  All day long my phone is going off from one or more of them telling me about their day, who they came in contact with, how many covid pts they have seen, what PPE they don't have, what the shut downs are, etc. etc. etc.  My youngest daughter is married to the fireman and they moved from Florida to Arizona just before the virus hit. They moved to be closer to us again with their 3 year old and 3 month old. They are still with us because they haven't been able to find a house due to the timing. So, we are having to be very careful. My mother is going to have her 90th birthday in two weeks and she's been by herself for the most of the year. I haven't seen my other out of state daughters for a year. It's hard for me to understand why people don't comply as best they can just to protect other people.  I know some people have a reason not to wear a mask, but if it's not a medical (physical or emotional) reason, and it's to vocalize 'rights', that seems to me a dangerous way to stand up for 'freedom'.  It bugs a lot of health care workers and first responders. You're not alone.   As you said, this virus is so unpredictable. That poor 26 year old nurse and all the others who are trying to help while others are trying to make a point. I hope you stay healthy and are able to see that grand baby when it's time.


Wow, thank you! It’s so nice to know that someone understands. Your words brought a tear to my eyes, just to feel understood is a glorious thing.   The thing that you get, is to wear masks for others, not necessarily yourself. That’s what makes me so unhappy. The “me” ness is so frustrating. Really, thank you! I pray your family stays safe and your mother sees 91! (At least)


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## Basil

linne1gi said:


> Wow, thank you! It’s so nice to know that someone understands. Your words brought a tear to my eyes, just to feel understood is a glorious thing.   The thing that you get, is to wear masks for others, not necessarily yourself. That’s what makes me so unhappy. The “me” ness is so frustrating. Really, thank you! I pray your family stays safe and your mother sees 91! (At least)


Thank you And your family as well!


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## fish123

linne1gi said:


> The thing that you get, is to wear masks for others, not necessarily yourself. That’s what makes me so unhappy. The “me” ness is so frustrating.



The thing is - there is ALWAYS someone, who would benefit from everyone wearing a mask. Cancer patients, elderly, families with premature babies etc. But I doubt it would do good to mankind to wear masks constantly. It is weakening our immune system (by contracting slightly changed virus in short intervals immune system can respond faster and we avoid serious symptoms). 
We can not see smiles, expressions in general on faces around us. 
CHILDREN grow up in the world without a smile (only close family is not enough).
I have a leukemia patient in close family and currently we too benefit from everyone wearing a mask. But we still think, that the whole thing is driven ad absurdum and becomes dangerous economical, social and medicinal experiment. We (including leukemia-patient) are definitely against mandatory vaccine - especially this one, new type and tested in haste, not in accordance with standard protocols. People should always have right to decide about their bodies and treatments - and still have right to use schools, planes and other public places.


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## Basil

fish123 said:


> The thing is - there is ALWAYS someone, who would benefit from everyone wearing a mask.
> 
> People should always have right to decide about their bodies and treatments - and still have right to use schools, planes and other public places.


 It’s funny that we’re experiencing the same debate  that those in 1918 had  with the Spanish flu. I feel that our country doesn’t really learn from history much.  Maybe because ‘America’ isn’t really that old so there’s nothing from history to learn yet?  I think the key word in the poster is ‘careless’.  Even back then, it was about caring. Not putting your life on a line by wearing a mask, but by putting someone else’s life on a line by not.


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## paradisi

Wearing a mask emphatically does *not* weaken the immune system. 

Not only is that not true, if it was,  surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc would all constantly be sicker than everyone else. And they are not.

People would do well to snopes such claims and to research (by which I do not mean Facebook or google or things a chiropractor or naturopath might say, neither of which are medical training). 

Also, there's no move to mandatory vaccination in the US, another thing that could be found by looking outside of political sources.

Someone I know is hanging on by a thread in a covid ward and I've had it with false information and selfishness.


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## linne1gi

paradisi said:


> Wearing a mask emphatically does *not* weaken the immune system.
> 
> Not only is that not true, if it was,  surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc would all constantly be sicker than everyone else. And they are not.
> 
> People would do well to snopes such claims and to research (by which I do not mean Facebook or google or things a chiropractor or naturopath might say, neither of which are medical training).
> 
> Also, there's no move to mandatory vaccination in the US, another thing that could be found by looking outside of political sources.
> 
> Someone I know is hanging on by a thread in a covid ward and I've had it with false information and selfishness.


THANK YOU!!! (yes, all in caps, because really thank you)  I will state also - People - Wearing a mask DOES NOT compromise your immune system.  Honestly, shaking my head here because of all the crappy information out there.


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## Kiti Williams

linne1gi said:


> THANK YOU!!! (yes, all in caps, because really thank you)  I will state also - People - Wearing a mask DOES NOT compromise your immune system.  Honestly, shaking my head here because of all the crappy information out there.



I agree, and I wear a mask to keep others at risk, safe.  I have found my mask also helped me with my nasty seasonal allergies!


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## linne1gi

Kiti Williams said:


> I agree, and I wear a mask to keep others at risk, safe.  I have found my mask also helped me with my nasty seasonal allergies!


Look at you with your silver lining! Kudos!


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## JenBen

paradisi said:


> On safety of vaccines, the vaccine claim reimbursement program (it's instead of lawsuits, and very few % actually claim injury) etc
> 
> National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | Official web site of the U.S. Health Resources & Services Administration
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | HRSA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hrsa.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Injury Claims Are Few and Far Between - The New York Times
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Injury Claims Are Few and Far Between (Published 2019)
> 
> 
> Data from a federal program designed to compensate people harmed by vaccines shows how rare it is for someone to claim they were hurt after getting vaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine Injury Court: Here's the Truth | Time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the Truth About the 'Vaccine Injury Court'
> 
> 
> The anti-vaxxers have been misrepresenting an important, if little-used, law
> 
> 
> 
> 
> time.com


1.  If vaccines were perfectly safe why would we need the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program?
2. Different vaccines, like different medication, have different side effects.   But unlike picking up a prescription, I wasn’t advised of the side effects nor was I given a drug-fact sheet which would’ve informed me.  Truthfully, I didn’t even know to ask when I vaccinated my daughter.
3. Almost no one: parent or patient, knows that National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program exists. 

Vaccine are pretty amazing but should any product that we and our children are forced to take be shielded from all liability?


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## linne1gi

JenBen said:


> 1.  If vaccines were perfectly safe why would we need the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program?
> 2. Different vaccines, like different medication, have different side effects.   But unlike picking up a prescription, I wasn’t advised of the side effects nor was I given a drug-fact sheet which would’ve informed me.  Truthfully, I didn’t even know to ask when I vaccinated my daughter.
> 3. Almost no one: parent or patient, knows that National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program exists.
> 
> Vaccine are pretty amazing but should any product that we and our children are forced to take be shielded from all liability?


No one is being forced to take this vaccine. Just like no one is forced to take the measles vaccine, which, by the way, is now on the rise in this and many countries.


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## fish123

linne1gi said:


> No one is being forced to take this vaccine. Just like no one is forced to take the measles vaccine, which, by the way, is now on the rise in this and many countries.


Kids are not allowed to go to school if they decided not to take measles vaccine - and you call it "no one is forced"?


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## Basil

linne1gi said:


> No one is being forced to take this vaccine. Just like no one is forced to take the measles vaccine, which, by the way, is now on the rise in this and many countries.


LOL I’m a pediatric nurse. And you are correct


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## linne1gi

fish123 said:


> Kids are not allowed to go to school if they decided not to take measles vaccine - and you call it "no one is forced"?


To my knowledge that determination hasn’t been made yet. We don’t have an FDA approval yet. Settle down.


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## Basil

fish123 said:


> Kids are not allowed to go to school if they decided not to take measles vaccine - and you call it "no one is forced"?


Well, I guess I kinda am. All  a parent has to do is sign a waiver. Having worked at a University  health center and pediatric center ( all ages of minors) as well as the one of the nurses who had to educate parents about vaccines and waivers and outcomes, etc...as well as having five kids ... I can say all parents have the ability to sign a waiver. But if there is an outbreak , the student  will be required to leave. And of course, that makes sense as they haven’t had the vaccine and then of course could get very sick from possible exposure. And this would of course apply to the other non vaccinated population who’ve signed waivers. All acceptable choices with known outcomes. Trying to meet the feelings  of all concerned.


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## dibbles

fish123 said:


> We can not see smiles, expressions in general on faces around us.
> CHILDREN grow up in the world without a smile (only close family is not enough).
> People should always have right to decide about their bodies and treatments - and still have right to use schools, planes and other public places.


I have two grandsons. The oldest is 22 months old. He doesn’t remember a time when it was more than mom and dad working from home, people didn’t wear masks when away from home, there were play dates with other kids, etc. The youngest is not quite 3 months old and doesn’t know much of anything yet, but I so wish I didn’t have to wear a mask when I am with him. I don’t believe the way things are now will be permanent, and children will not ‘grow up in a world without a smile’. I do believe we would get back to ‘normal’ a lot faster if people would just wear a mask.

I agree people should have the right to make their own decisions about their bodies. But when someone makes that decision and contracts the virus they could potentially expose others, especially if they don’t have symptoms and are unaware. When my son was 11 months old and too young to have received the measles vaccine, he did get sick with measles and I have no idea where he was exposed. Someone chose not to vaccinate, went into a public space and spread an airborne virus to anyone else that was there within 2 hours. A vaccine was not yet available to my son as he was too young for it. He was very sick, but his older sister, who was vaccinated, was fine. So until everyone who wants a vaccine is able to get one, I don’t have a problem with those who choose not to get one living with some consequences of that decision.

I hope I am saying this in the way I intend. I’m not trying to be confrontational, but just have a different viewpoint.


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## fish123

_


paradisi said:



			Wearing a mask emphatically does *not* weaken the immune system.
Not only is that not true, if it was,  surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc would all constantly be sicker than everyone else. And they are not.
People would do well to snopes such claims and to research (by which I do not mean Facebook or google or things a chiropractor or naturopath might say, neither of which are medical training).
Also, there's no move to mandatory vaccination in the US, another thing that could be found by looking outside of political sources.
Someone I know is hanging on by a thread in a covid ward and I've had it with false information and selfishness.
		
Click to expand...

_
Well it happened, that I am a biologist, from medical dynasty (none of whom are chiropractors or naturopaths or even nurses - all hard core classical doctors). So I have my claims not from facebook.
Continuous(!) avoidance of "germs" DOES result in weakening immune system over time - please learn what IS immune system and how it is working before you call someone stupid or liar. The results of constant germ avoidance will be noticeable in several months - couple of years. There will be strong surge in heavy reactions to seasonal illnesses, previously considered as mild ones - and as no one ever made PCR on those multitudes of "colds" they will find "new" "super-bugs" one after another - not because they emerged from some lab, but just because people lost immunity to some rota-, corona- etc- viruses, they used to contract every, EVERY winter before and just felt slightly tired, because in short period of time mutations accumulated by virus are few and immune system can recognize and respond quickly with more or less compatible antibodies still left from previous infection with similar strain. Longer interval between reinfections -> more mutations accumulated by virus -> "new" (=unknown to immune system) virus. SO please - DO educate yourself not only from mainstream newspapers.

Your example with "surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc" is not correct, as all those people use masks only at work (and previously it was NOT all the time) and after work they contracted LOTS of germs in stores, restaurants, at home from family members who do NOT wear masks at work and bring every single germ back home to "surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc".

I do wear mask from reason stated above(I am not afraid for myself because I had it mid January - just strange loss of smell and taste for a week without any other symptoms), but I am perfectly sure they do not stop all the viruses - they diminish the load, which is good. But somewhere should be the limit. And currently looks like many would just love to wear masks to the end of their lives (folks in this forum too). And THAT I (even having leukemia-patient at home) find to be really, really sick.

And there ultimately IS move to mandatory vaccination - freedom to choose whether to vaccinate children who are going to public schools was taken from people in every single state of US.



Basil said:


> Well, I guess I kinda am. All a parent has to do is sign a waiver.



wake up - a waiver possibility was waived. Vaccinations ARE mandatory since couple of years. Only medical extemptions are recognized now in most states, and doctors are not willing to give them.



dibbles said:


> I have two grandsons. The oldest is 22 months old. He doesn’t remember a time when it was more than mom and dad working from home, people didn’t wear masks when away from home, there were play dates with other kids, etc. The youngest is not quite 3 months old and doesn’t know much of anything yet, but I so wish I didn’t have to wear a mask when I am with him. I don’t believe the way things are now will be permanent, and children will not ‘grow up in a world without a smile’. I do believe we would get back to ‘normal’ a lot faster if people would just wear a mask.
> ...



The sad thing is - wearing a mask does "flatten the curve" - just by STRETCHING out infection rates throughout population, because this virus (as most air-born ones) is impossible to control - we ALL have to go through this infection. And that means - wearing the mask will not fasten but slow down "back to normal" - might be even longer just because virus would mutate more over longer time and cause severe symptoms by second infections with changed strain, which otherwise (with short intervals between contracting the virus = less changed strain of virus) would go unnoticed.
And sadly - nothing in the world can change impressions put on a child in the first tree years of life. These first years are mind-molding - literally.



Basil said:


> It’s funny that we’re experiencing the same debate  that those in 1918 had  with the Spanish flu. I feel that our country doesn’t really learn from history much.  Maybe because ‘America’ isn’t really that old so there’s nothing from history to learn yet?  I think the key word in the poster is ‘careless’.  Even back then, it was about caring. Not putting your life on a line by wearing a mask, but by putting someone else’s life on a line by not.


 btw. "Spanish flu" was one of regular strains of influenza (real one) after all - H1N1 influenza A - it was recently PCR tested from exhumed bodies.  Pretty common strain in those time already, but social and economical situation of that time was a cause of disaster, making the virus so devastating - through peoples weakened immune systems and unsanitary conditions of living in war time.
And now social and economical disaster is being created - under banner of COVID. What would come in next years?


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## dibbles

fish123 said:


> The sad thing is - wearing a mask does "flatten the curve" - just by STRETCHING out infection rates throughout population, because this virus (as most air-born ones) is impossible to control - we ALL have to go through this infection. And that means - wearing the mask will not fasten but slow down "back to normal" - might be even longer just because virus would mutate more over longer time and cause severe symptoms by second infections with changed strain, which otherwise (with short intervals between contracting the virus = less changed strain of virus) would go unnoticed.
> And sadly - nothing in the world can change impressions put on a child in the first tree years of life. These first years are mind-molding - literally.


I'm not going to argue with you. I don't necessarily agree with you that we 'all' have to go through this infection. Even so, flattening the curve will allow hospitals and health care workers to keep up with the cases. That in itself is a huge reason to flatten the curve. If we all do, indeed, have to have the infection I would like to think that those needing care will get it.


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## Basil

fish123 said:


> wake up - a waiver possibility was waived. Vaccinations ARE mandatory since couple of years. Only medical extemptions are recognized now in most states, and doctors are not willing to give them.


My apologies. I see you are from California. Take care.


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## Obsidian

@paradisi s


fish123 said:


> Kids are not allowed to go to school if they decided not to take measles vaccine - and you call it "no one is forced"?



Its not required everywhere and thats the reason measles is making a come back in the US.

I personally feel that vaccinations absolutely should be mandatory, for kids and adults.

Its obvious by how this pandemic has spread that people can't figure out how to keep themselves safe. It time for governments to step up and make them.


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## JenBen

linne1gi said:


> No one is being forced to take this vaccine. Just like no one is forced to take the measles vaccine, which, by the way, is now on the rise in this and many countries.


We _are_ required to vaccinate our children in order to enroll them in school and sometimes in order to enroll them in Summer Camp. (It varies from state to state.) Those who work in healthcare can chime in, but it my understanding that they are required to get a flu vaccine.
Some are suggesting requiring proof of vaccination in order to enter stores, fly on airplanes, and at certain workplaces.
The rise of measles concerns me too.  It’s so virulent.  Like other highly-infectious diseases, it likely requires multi-faceted attention. 
I don’t want to discount the life-saving value of vaccines.  I simply believe we should apply the same caution and scrutiny that we do to all pharmaceuticals.


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## melinda48

JenBen said:


> Not all pharmaceuticals (including vaccines) have positive reactions for all members of the population.  The results can be deadly.  More troubling however is that thanks to the "National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act" (NCVIA) of 1986, pharmaceutical companies have zero liability for damage caused by this particular category of drug we call a vaccine, even in cases where it has been proven that it was improperly or unhygienically produced.
> 
> I think we should give it time and let individuals make the choices they feel are right for them.


The government does not have the right to make any medical procedure/vaccine ”mandatory.” As you likely know, there are some religions that do not allow for vaccines/medical interference. The Amish and the Mennonite communities do not wear masks -we have to respect that right.  I believe we have to be careful to make good choices for ourselves, our families, and others. Be very very careful what you wish for.

That being said, I always wear a mask when I am going to be around others. I do not wear a mask when walking in the fresh air. If I am in a store and see someone coming my way without a mask, I turn and take another route. Social distancing is not difficult; it is s9mething we can all do. If you work I doors all day, you will be wearing a mask-be sure to keep it clean as change it often. 

Hang in there folks. We will get through this!



Obsidian said:


> @paradisi s
> 
> 
> Its not required everywhere and thats the reason measles is making a come back in the US.
> 
> I personally feel that vaccinations absolutely should be mandatory, for kids and adults.
> 
> Its obvious by how this pandemic has spread that people can't figure out how to keep themselves safe. It time for governments to step up and make them.


How, exactly?


----------



## linne1gi

I agree with @dibbles, wearing a mask will help flatten the curve. The virus doesn’t go away, it’s still there, but it does help to keep hospitals, doctors and nurses from being totally overwhelmed. Along with mortuaries. Do you realize they are loading bodies into refrigerated trucks because there’s no place big enough to contain them?  The hospital in my area is overwhelmed, many are overwhelmed. And @Obsidian, I totally agree with you, the government needs to step up and keep safe the idiots out there.


----------



## Kiti Williams

linne1gi said:


> Look at you with your silver lining! Kudos!



I figure, what can it hurt?  My Husband does have asthma, so he needs to "vent" a few times.  This is done with the mask on, but pulled away from the neck a bit.  It lets in fresh air.


----------



## paradisi

Wearing a mask doesn't harm the immune system..that idea is based on misunderstanding how both masks and the immune system work. 

Here's a good backgrounder on that:
Wearing A Mask To Protect Against Covid-19 Coronavirus Will Not Weaken Your Immune System








						Wearing A Mask To Protect Against Covid-19 Coronavirus Will Not Weaken Your Immune System
					

Some people have suggested that mask-wearing can lower the immune system, but there is no scientific evidence for this claim.




					www.forbes.com
				




"Plandemic" Fact-Check




__





						"Plandemic" Fact-Check
					

Plandemic Fact-Check is our effort to correct the scientific misinformation presented in a recent COVID-19 conspiracy video.




					covidstudentresponse.org


----------



## mensasnem

No one wants to look at the facts.

1. You're just as likely to contract and die of ordinary flu as you are coronavirus -- no one is suggesting lockdowns or masks for ordinary flu.
2. A hundred years ago it was demonstrated that cloth masks do not (I repeat, do NOT) slow or stop the spread of airborne viruses -- a hundred years ago.
3. If lockdowns and masks were necessary for survival, then why is anyone alive in Sweden.
4. If lockdowns and masks slow down and stop the spread of coronavirus, then why are there so many deaths in New York and New Jersey, where mask requirements and lockdowns have been the greatest.
5. A hundred years ago, it was demonstrated that vitamin D is the only effective countermeasure for respiratory viral diseases. In Europe, the governments are finally telling people to take vitamin D. Why isn't our government and the medical community telling people to take vitamin D?

Anyone who talks about the facts is marginalized as being stupid, ignorant, or possessed of a desire to kill everyone. Allow fact, reason, logic, and science rule the day, rather than fear, hysteria, non-sense, and pseudoscience.



Noreen Moore said:


> And once again the darn flu vaccine doesn't cover the B strain.



Clinical studies demonstrate that flu shots are no more effective than placebo. Yet, the government and the medical community continue to push them. Why?


----------



## paradisi

That's all untrue.

And Sweden has repudiated what it did. Etc. 

It's sad and tiring to see people turning to disinformation when the severity of Covid and proof of safety and efficacy of masks and vaccines is there for all to see.

Meanwhile, my friend has died from Covid. 

That can't actually be what you want to keep happening... but covid denial will only increase suffering and death.  Take a step back and think about the consequences of what you're advocating on the lives of people you know and care about.




mensasnem said:


> No one wants to look at the facts.
> 
> 1. You're just as likely to contract and die of ordinary flu as you are coronavirus -- no one is suggesting lockdowns or masks for ordinary flu.
> 2. A hundred years ago it was demonstrated that cloth masks do not (I repeat, do NOT) slow or stop the spread of airborne viruses -- a hundred years ago.
> 3. If lockdowns and masks were necessary for survival, then why is anyone alive in Sweden.
> 4. If lockdowns and masks slow down and stop the spread of coronavirus, then why are there so many deaths in New York and New Jersey, where mask requirements and lockdowns have been the greatest.
> 5. A hundred years ago, it was demonstrated that vitamin D is the only effective countermeasure for respiratory viral diseases. In Europe, the governments are finally telling people to take vitamin D. Why isn't our government and the medical community telling people to take vitamin D?
> 
> Anyone who talks about the facts is marginalized as being stupid, ignorant, or possessed of a desire to kill everyone. Allow fact, reason, logic, and science rule the day, rather than fear, hysteria, non-sense, and pseudoscience.


----------



## beckster51

mensasnem said:


> No one wants to look at the facts.
> 
> 1. You're just as likely to contract and die of ordinary flu as you are coronavirus -- no one is suggesting lockdowns or masks for ordinary flu.
> 2. A hundred years ago it was demonstrated that cloth masks do not (I repeat, do NOT) slow or stop the spread of airborne viruses -- a hundred years ago.
> 3. If lockdowns and masks were necessary for survival, then why is anyone alive in Sweden.
> 4. If lockdowns and masks slow down and stop the spread of coronavirus, then why are there so many deaths in New York and New Jersey, where mask requirements and lockdowns have been the greatest.
> 5. A hundred years ago, it was demonstrated that vitamin D is the only effective countermeasure for respiratory viral diseases. In Europe, the governments are finally telling people to take vitamin D. Why isn't our government and the medical community telling people to take vitamin D?
> 
> Anyone who talks about the facts is marginalized as being stupid, ignorant, or possessed of a desire to kill everyone. Allow fact, reason, logic, and science rule the day, rather than fear, hysteria, non-sense, and pseudoscience.


I don't know where you are getting your information, but it is all incorrect.  This is not factual data, and no one is

1. The death rate from Covid is much higher than the flu.  Yes, people can die from the flu, but the death rate is much lower.  
2. The CDC has demonstrated through experiments that appropriately made cloth masks do work to protect people from the virus.  A hundred years ago, they wore gauze masks, which are ineffective because they are so porous.  
3. Sweden has one of the highest death rates in Europe, so their experiment with herd immunity has not been successful with decreasing deaths in their country.  Even though they have a high death rate, they still have not achieved herd immunity.
4. Vitamin D "may" be helpful, but there are no definitive studies that document that it is a successful adjunctive treatment.  We currently do have treatments that are effective for viruses, but they are not as effective as antibiotics are against susceptible bacteria. 
5.  Why you would refer to medical knowledge of 100 years ago as being an appropriate reference for today boggles my mind.  During the 1918 flu epidemic, the population was vaccinated with a vaccine for a bacteria instead of a virus.  They did not even know it was a virus, so the vaccine was totally ineffective since they had no knowledge of viruses at that time. 
6.  The flu vaccine is variable in its effectiveness, since it is a different vaccine every year.  It is prepared by extrapolating/guessing which viruses will be prevalent in the this hemisphere based on what viruses were prevalent in the other hemispheres before flu season here.  You can look up how effective it was each year by looking at the CDC website.  They admit it is often not as effective as they would like.  But no one has documented that it no more effective than a placebo since there have been no studies that gave the entire population a placebo or a flu shot then compared data based on incidence.
No one is calling you stupid or ignorant, but your assertions are not correct.  It is dangerous to spread misinformation, and that is what this is.  If anyone would like references for my facts, I would be happy to hunt them up and give them to you, but psychological research says that you cannot change anyone's mind when they have taken an emotional position on a subject, and most people who are misinformed have taken an stand based on an emotional point of view.



fish123 said:


> Well it happened, that I am a biologist, from medical dynasty (none of whom are chiropractors or naturopaths or even nurses - all hard core classical doctors). So I have my claims not from facebook.
> Continuous(!) avoidance of "germs" DOES result in weakening immune system over time - please learn what IS immune system and how it is working before you call someone stupid or liar. The results of constant germ avoidance will be noticeable in several months - couple of years. There will be strong surge in heavy reactions to seasonal illnesses, previously considered as mild ones - and as no one ever made PCR on those multitudes of "colds" they will find "new" "super-bugs" one after another - not because they emerged from some lab, but just because people lost immunity to some rota-, corona- etc- viruses, they used to contract every, EVERY winter before and just felt slightly tired, because in short period of time mutations accumulated by virus are few and immune system can recognize and respond quickly with more or less compatible antibodies still left from previous infection with similar strain. Longer interval between reinfections -> more mutations accumulated by virus -> "new" (=unknown to immune system) virus. SO please - DO educate yourself not only from mainstream newspapers.
> 
> Your example with "surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc" is not correct, as all those people use masks only at work (and previously it was NOT all the time) and after work they contracted LOTS of germs in stores, restaurants, at home from family members who do NOT wear masks at work and bring every single germ back home to "surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc".
> 
> I do wear mask from reason stated above(I am not afraid for myself because I had it mid January - just strange loss of smell and taste for a week without any other symptoms), but I am perfectly sure they do not stop all the viruses - they diminish the load, which is good. But somewhere should be the limit. And currently looks like many would just love to wear masks to the end of their lives (folks in this forum too). And THAT I (even having leukemia-patient at home) find to be really, really sick.
> 
> And there ultimately IS move to mandatory vaccination - freedom to choose whether to vaccinate children who are going to public schools was taken from people in every single state of US.


There is no way to continuously avoid germs unless you live in a bubble,  and as a biologist you should know that.  Yes, placing someone with an immature immune system (babies) in a protective environment for years would cause their immune system to be less robust than someone's who had been exposed to more germs.  That is why scientists have found that children who play outside have a more robust immune system.  All adults who do not have an immune disorder have a well developed immune system and are not harmed by wearing a mask.  If that were true, all the people who wear masks every day at work would be harmed, and they are not. I don't have any idea where you got this information, but it is incorrect.

I have tried to avoid posting any more about Covid 19 misinformation on this forum, but it truly makes me crazy to see all this misinformation. It's dangerous and results in poor decision making in daily living during a pandemic.  I would ask that everyone look carefully at the sources they are using for information.  People should heed the warnings and direction of medical and scientific professionals.  I would never argue with someone about a subject that I was not an expert in.  Think about why you are doing that exact thing if you are stating that the experts are all wrong.


----------



## Megan

beckster51 said:


> 1. The death rate from Covid is much higher than the flu.  Yes, people can die from the flu, but the death rate is much lower.
> 6.  The flu vaccine is variable in its effectiveness, since it is a different vaccine every year.  It is prepared by extrapolating/guessing which viruses will be prevalent in the this hemisphere based on what viruses were prevalent in the other hemispheres before flu season here.  You can look up how effective it was each year by looking at the CDC website.  They admit it is often not as effective as they would like.  But no one has documented that it no more effective than a placebo since there have been no studies that gave the entire population a placebo or a flu shot then compared data based on incidence.



I'd like to mention also that the death rate of Covid has surpassed the death rate of the flu compounded over several seasons now. Last time I checked it was the last five flu seasons, but that has been a couple of months ago so I would venture to say we're closing in on six years (and Covid is just coming up on it's first year here, depending on the sources you read). 

Additionally, just because a patient doesn't die of Covid, doesn't mean they won't have possibly life-long complications from the disease. I know several people who now have COPD as a direct result of Covid. People are also having strokes, some people have enlarged hearts as a result, heck I've even heard of people who are now on dialysis because their kidneys have failed due to the effects that Covid had on their bodies. Some of these people are young and now have a continued life expectancy of less than a decade because of this virus. 

Regarding the flu vaccine: even though it isn't as effective as I think they would like it to be, there have been several studies done that indicate strongly that the flu vaccine does protect from severe flu illness (people who get the vaccine are less likely to be hospitalized and/or die from the flu). 

The misinformation is so frustrating to me too. A lot of people have a very short-term outlook on this situation.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Meanwhile I'll just sit over here in New Zealand where we have only a handful of current cases, all in managed isolation facilities where they are placed on arrival into the country.  We've had two lockdowns - one the entire country for 4 weeks, and the other just the biggest city for 2 weeks. Stoping the spread is critical.  We are back up and fully functioning as a country, the housing market is buoyant, and my sisters who run their own retail business have never been so busy ( and have been this way since the lockdown lifted in May).


----------



## beckster51

paradisi said:


> That's all untrue.
> 
> And Sweden has repudiated what it did. Etc.
> 
> It's sad and tiring to see people turning to disinformation when the severity of Covid and proof of safety and efficacy of masks and vaccines is there for all to see.
> 
> Meanwhile, my friend has died from Covid.
> 
> That can't actually be what you want to keep happening... but covid denial will only increase suffering and death.  Take a step back and think about the consequences of what you're advocating on the lives of people you know and care about.


I'm sorry to hear that you have lost a friend.  I have been very lucky thus far, and I have not lost anyone to this disease yet.  I'm sure I would be much more frustrated with misinformation if I had lost a loved one.  My condolences.


----------



## fish123

paradisi said:


> Wearing a mask doesn't harm the immune system..that idea is based on misunderstanding how both masks and the immune system work.
> 
> Here's a good backgrounder on that:
> Wearing A Mask To Protect Against Covid-19 Coronavirus Will Not Weaken Your Immune System
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wearing A Mask To Protect Against Covid-19 Coronavirus Will Not Weaken Your Immune System
> 
> 
> Some people have suggested that mask-wearing can lower the immune system, but there is no scientific evidence for this claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com



Dear paradisi, you obviously did not read my answer (#1,165) to you? That you still offer me information from "Forbes" - in your opinion THIS is THE authority to get information about how Immunity works? biologist and doctors have to learn from "Forbes" to make their opinion???
I would laugh if such ignorance wouldn't  be so sad...
Btw, the very same "authorities" cried out loud in February and March - "DO NOT WEAR MASKS - MASKS DO NOT HELP!" - on all channels and pages! - and ultimately promoted high infection rates making sure this virus becomes unstoppable (though with 85% asymptomatic infections it essentially IS unstoppable, as we know now)


----------



## fish123

KiwiMoose said:


> Meanwhile I'll just sit over here in New Zealand where we have only a handful of current cases, all in managed isolation facilities where they are placed on arrival into the country.


It is impossible to stop this virus spread - just like influenza and even more - because so many as 85% and probably more infections go unnoticed - because of mild symptoms or no symptoms at all - it is to stay on this planet. It is the question of time when everyone contracts it. Just relax and try to keep your inflamation factors (adrenalin first of all) down.


----------



## linne1gi

mensasnem said:


> No one wants to look at the facts.
> 
> 1. You're just as likely to contract and die of ordinary flu as you are coronavirus -- no one is suggesting lockdowns or masks for ordinary flu.
> 2. A hundred years ago it was demonstrated that cloth masks do not (I repeat, do NOT) slow or stop the spread of airborne viruses -- a hundred years ago.
> 3. If lockdowns and masks were necessary for survival, then why is anyone alive in Sweden.
> 4. If lockdowns and masks slow down and stop the spread of coronavirus, then why are there so many deaths in New York and New Jersey, where mask requirements and lockdowns have been the greatest.
> 5. A hundred years ago, it was demonstrated that vitamin D is the only effective countermeasure for respiratory viral diseases. In Europe, the governments are finally telling people to take vitamin D. Why isn't our government and the medical community telling people to take vitamin D?
> 
> Anyone who talks about the facts is marginalized as being stupid, ignorant, or possessed of a desire to kill everyone. Allow fact, reason, logic, and science rule the day, rather than fear, hysteria, non-sense, and pseudoscience.





mensasnem said:


> Clinical studies demonstrate that flu shots are no more effective than placebo. Yet, the government and the medical community continue to push them. Why?


All untrue, sad that you are repeating this.  The Flu does kill a number of people each year, but nowhere near as many as this virus does - and this virus has so much sequelae (it's effects keep on).  Sweden has the highest daily death rate in the world and it's getting worse there.  The Flu vaccine has a 60% effectiveness rate, which is not perfect, but it does help prevent the Flu in those that would suffer the most - it's not a placebo vaccine.  Masks do work, this is proven.  In areas where mask wearing was enforced, the number of cases and more importantly the number of deaths decreased.  I'm a registered nurse and I have been wearing masks for 35 years.  My mask protects you - your mask protects me - that's how that works.  I do believe that vitamin D does help to strengthen the immune system, but it is in no way proven to combat the Covid-19 virus.


----------



## fish123

linne1gi said:


> All untrue, sad that you are repeating this.  The Flu does kill a number of people each year, but nowhere near as many as this virus does
> ....  My mask protects you - your mask protects me - that's how that works.



"Never believe statistics that you did not fix yourself"
Even with Hopkins data there are only 1.5% deaths from REGISTERED cases. Considering the fact most cases (+-85%) go unnoticed/untested - the death rate is indeed similar to regular flu.
Please show me those trucks with bodies. You know some time ago, I looked at "portable crematories" in China that were hysterically shared over internet - they are just portable homes of older type, like those for seasonal  fieldworkers and builders - obviously set up for additional incoming personal needed in Wuhan. )



mensasnem said:


> Clinical studies demonstrate that flu shots are no more effective than placebo. Yet, the government and the medical community continue to push them. Why?



well mensasnem, looks like we both know why  just when we say it loud we would be stigmatized and ignored..
Vaccines are pushed for same reason why there is an agenda in WHO - "How to create interest in pharma-companies to produce cheap but vital  medications for "3d world" countries (where folks can not pay big bucks for medi). Because pharma-companies said repeatedly - "we are NOT welfare organizations but companies - our primary goal is making PROFIT. Make us get profit from those 3d world medies and we would produce them as much you like". And they feel comfortable to say that. It's official. It's legal. It's fact . That is THE simple and ugly truth about "why"...



mensasnem said:


> Why isn't our government and the medical community telling people to take vitamin D?



Mmm... Because that would expose the fact, that total supplementation of Milk with Vit D did not work? ...maybe even did it worse because Vit D can work only until VIt K is not depleted. When there is a lack of Vit K you can eat "tons" of Vit D and it would not work. And if you take into account that 75% of synthetic Vit K offered to population are ineffective (possibly harmful) isomers of similar Vit K molecule. And that synthetic Vit D often causes inflammation of bowes... Oh my better keep silent )


----------



## beckster51

fish123 said:


> Dear paradisi, you obviously did not read my answer (#1,165) to you? That you still offer me information from "Forbes" - in your opinion THIS is THE authority to get information about how Immunity works? biologist and doctors have to learn from "Forbes" to make their opinion???
> I would laugh if such ignorance wouldn't  be so sad...
> Btw, the very same "authorities" cried out loud in February and March - "DO NOT WEAR MASKS - MASKS DO NOT HELP!" - on all channels and pages! - and ultimately promoted high infection rates making sure this virus becomes unstoppable (though with 85% asymptomatic infections it essentially IS unstoppable, as we know now)


Perhaps it would help if you read the actual article.  This is the resume of the person who wrote it.



Victoria Forster


I am a postdoctoral research scientist focusing on childhood cancers and new, targeted cancer therapies. As a survivor of childhood leukemia myself, I am a determined advocate for research into better, less-toxic cancer treatments and how to reduce the long-term side effects of current drugs. I am an award-winning science communicator and have written for The Times, The Guardian and various cancer-focused outlets. I am also a 2017 TED Fellow, having done my TED talk on cancer survivorship and I regularly do public talks on topics ranging from ‘Why haven’t we cured cancer yet?’ to ‘Cannabis and cancer; hype or hope?’. I am passionate about using social media to communicate science and frequently share pictures and stories from my own laboratory work in real-time on my Twitter account @vickyyyf, alongside commentary about important research breakthroughs. You can find out more about me and how to get in contact via my website drvickyforster.com. All of my articles reflect my personal views and not those of my employer.


----------



## fish123

beckster51 said:


> There is no way to continuously avoid germs unless you live in a bubble,  and as a biologist you should know that.
> Yes, placing someone with an immature immune system (babies) in a protective environment for years would cause their immune system to be less robust than someone's who had been exposed to more germs.  That is why scientists have found that children who play outside have a more robust immune system.


 Correct, thank you , exactly what I said.



> All adults who do not have an immune disorder have a well developed immune system and are not harmed by wearing a mask.


and here is the laps of reasoning. Above you state being exposed makes "more robust immune system", and now you say it is good to avoid. ???



> If that were true, all the people who wear masks every day at work would be harmed, and they are not. I don't have any idea where you got this information, but it is incorrect.


You obviously are not paitent enough to read my comment to the end, because I explained fully why - _"...and after work they contracted _<previously> _LOTS of germs in stores, restaurants, at home from family members who do NOT wear masks at work and bring every single germ back home to "surgeons, nurses, firefighters, painters, drywallers, etc". _


----------



## fish123

beckster51 said:


> Perhaps it would help if you read the actual article.  This is the resume of the person who wrote it.
> Victoria Forster
> I am a postdoctoral research scientist focusing on childhood cancers



Nice for her, but should I throw away all the opinions of proffs in microbiology, virology and biochemistry and that of doctors with decades(!) of experience because some nice young "postdoctoral research scientist *focusing on childhood cancers*" decided to give her opinion to virus by Forbes?


----------



## Basil

mensasnem said:


> No one wants to look at the facts.
> 
> 1. You're just as likely to contract and die of ordinary flu as you are coronavirus -- no one is suggesting lockdowns or masks for ordinary flu.
> 2. A hundred years ago it was demonstrated that cloth masks do not (I repeat, do NOT) slow or stop the spread of airborne viruses -- a hundred years ago.
> 3. If lockdowns and masks were necessary for survival, then why is anyone alive in Sweden.
> 4. If lockdowns and masks slow down and stop the spread of coronavirus, then why are there so many deaths in New York and New Jersey, where mask requirements and lockdowns have been the greatest.
> 5. A hundred years ago, it was demonstrated that vitamin D is the only effective countermeasure for respiratory viral diseases. In Europe, the governments are finally telling people to take vitamin D. Why isn't our government and the medical community telling people to take vitamin D?
> 
> Anyone who talks about the facts is marginalized as being stupid, ignorant, or possessed of a desire to kill everyone. Allow fact, reason, logic, and science rule the day, rather than fear, hysteria, non-sense, and pseudoscience.


It may be worth it to read up on what Trump took when being treated for covid and what Dr Fauci  recommends as far as vitamin D. It was plastered all over the news. And what has been acknowledged for many years now as a supplement worth taking. Also a very commen lab test ordered at any VA facility- vit D level. And prescribed for veterans if low on it. Also high doses recommended by naturalpaths, altho not always taken seriously by some. Vitamin D is very well documented, but you may have missed that. I think we all want to look at the facts during a time when we get so much misinformation. It’s not so much that one can die from covid anymore than dying from the flu. It’s that covid attacks the body in strange ways, very unpredictable, and nothing like we’ve experienced before. It fills up hospitals faster than people sick from the flu. I agree with you that we should listen to science.


----------



## beckster51

fish123 said:


> Nice for her, but should I throw away all the opinions of proffs in microbiology, virology and biochemistry and that of doctors with decades(!) of experience because some nice young "postdoctoral research scientist *focusing on childhood cancers*" decided to give her opinion to virus by Forbes?


Could you provide me with your sources?  I am curious and would like to follow your reasoning.


----------



## paradisi

beckster51 said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you have lost a friend.  I have been very lucky thus far, and I have not lost anyone to this disease yet.  I'm sure I would be much more frustrated with misinformation if I had lost a loved one.  My condolences.


Thank you. It's been a dark week.
Another friend had a stroke after covid, it's not something the survivors are all fine when it's over.  I don't understand people minimizing this.


----------



## fish123

Megan said:


> I'd like to mention also that the death rate of Covid has surpassed the death rate of the flu compounded over several seasons now.


it is incorrect to assume that virus is more dangerous based on absolute counts - it IS essentially relatively _new_ virus so population does not have immunity and _all get sick more or less at once _(relatively to millennia of years of influenza) But if you look at *percentage* of deadly cases - it IS similar to influenza.



> ...
> Additionally, just because a patient doesn't die of Covid, doesn't mean they won't have possibly life-long complications from the disease. I know several people who now have COPD as a direct result of Covid.


couple of months is luckily not long enough to call it " CHRONIC obstructive pulmonary disease" - my cousin had coronaviral infection back in 2018 (yes, 2018, all symptoms of COVID, just a whole year earlier) and her lungs did not work properly about 4 months after she got better, but she is absolutely back to normal over a year as by now. So I have reason to hope that most of those affected would recover likewise!
As well I know a young girl whose kidneys died after _influenza_ infection. She was on dialysis for years until her mother (friend of mine) could give her one of hers.
My father got deaf on one ear after influenza infection.
I had Influenza - whole week in a bed with 40.5°C(105F) that could not be pushed below 39.6 (103.5F) and it actually helped me to combat Lyme I had by that time.  SO I know that influenza is VERY serious disease. And yet I am not immunizing against flu - because natural boosts are more effective, do not contain neurotoxic metals, yes - sometimes are dangerous (as are vaccines sometimes), but sometimes unexpectedly give us additional positive effect.



> Regarding the flu vaccine: even though it isn't as effective as I think they would like it to be, there have been several studies done that indicate strongly that the flu vaccine does protect from severe flu illness (people who get the vaccine are less likely to be hospitalized and/or die from the flu).



I am absolutely PRO availability of vaccines, but it always should be a FREE CHOICE - without any discrimination at schools or other public places.



> The misinformation is so frustrating to me too. A lot of people have a very short-term outlook on this situation.


It is un-ethical to label someone else's differing opinion (quite educated one) as "misinformation", even if it upsets you.
Short therm outlook is - to hope, that you might ignore and comply with the current ongoing loss of freedoms and be well in 10 years.


----------



## Kiti Williams

I have 1 personal contact that has had Covid-19.  1.  I live in a small town where just about everyone is related by blood and/or marriage.  The person who contracted the CCP virus is from my Quilting Guild and does not live near me.
I work with our local food bank and have seen, nor heard of, anyone who has had it.  I filled the position of Lay Chaplain and did not get prayers for friend or family of those that were receiving our services. I guess all the cases we have had are of the asymptomatic kind.


----------



## LilyJo

I started this thread as a way to share our experiences and to check in with each other and now I have just read the last few pages with increasing anger.

This forum is NOT the place for politics, conspiracy theories, misinformation or anti vaxx platforms. There are plenty of places elsewhere to share your opinions on all of that but this isn't the forum for it.


----------



## Microchick

mensasnem said:


> Clinical studies demonstrate that flu shots are no more effective than placebo. Yet, the government and the medical community continue to push them. Why?


Share these "clinical studies"


----------



## Catscankim

I got a text from my boss this morning that the vaccine is supposedly going to be available to us next week and I needed to sign up for it. It is NOT mandatory.


----------



## cmzaha

After taking all the precautions my husband brought it home from his 1-day week transport job for a retirement facility. He always wore his mask was over six feet from the passengers on his bus, but it did not help us. We have both been very sick since before Thanksgiving. I came down with it a week after my husband and this is the first day I have really been up. This is a very nasty dangerous virus so anyone that ignores the warnings I very much hope you do not get it. I am very concerned about my husband he is not getting over it. I have been fortunate to have not had it as bad, but bad enough, but my husband just cannot shake it. This Virus is Not a game, and I for one will most likely risk taking the vaccine when it comes available.


----------



## Catscankim

I am so sorry @cmzaha I hope you are both ok! I should have elaborated on my post. I was squashing a few prior posts on whether or not the government was making it mandatory.

I had a scare last week and yesterday was my first day back to work after a mandatory quarantine because I had symptoms. Like literally got off the phone with my boss at 130 pm and dozed off on the sofa...woke up at 1230am...11 hours later. I had a cycle of sleeping for almost 12  hours, being awake for a few, then sleeping another 12 for the entire week. It was weird. Then I woke up once thinking it was xmas and called my daughter. Had a screaming sore throat and felt generally flu-y and achy. Really winded just walking to the bathroom. I tested negative. I don't trust the tests, but my symptoms, whatever they were, have gone away. It is kind of my sick season anyway, but I couldn't justify going into work when they also seemed like covid symptoms.

Still not sure about the vaccine. I said yes that I would take it, but there is still a big question in my head on whether or not it is safe. And maybe I am just listening to too many theories on both ends, but I am not going to be the one lucky lottery winner that was offered the vax and declined, only to catch it and get super sick or die later. Not with what I have witnessed over the past 9 months.

edit:  Not sure of the significance...but before today we havent heard anything about an actual plan. Then I got the text asking for an immediate decision. It was a yes or no...RIGHT NOW.


----------



## beckster51

cmzaha said:


> After taking all the precautions my husband brought it home from his 1-day week transport job for a retirement facility. He always wore his mask was over six feet from the passengers on his bus, but it did not help us. We have both been very sick since before Thanksgiving. I came down with it a week after my husband and this is the first day I have really been up. This is a very nasty dangerous virus so anyone that ignores the warnings I very much hope you do not get it. I am very concerned about my husband he is not getting over it. I have been fortunate to have not had it as bad, but bad enough, but my husband just cannot shake it. This Virus is Not a game, and I for one will most likely risk taking the vaccine when it comes available.


I am so sorry to hear that you and your husband have been sick!  My husband is extremely high risk since he is already chronically ill, and I am anxious about it, but doing all I can to avoid catching it.  As you say, no matter how many precautions you take, you can get it.  I send prayers that you continue to feel better and that your husband turns the corner.


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> I am so sorry @cmzaha I hope you are both ok! I should have elaborated on my post. I was squashing a few prior posts on whether or not the government was making it mandatory.
> 
> I had a scare last week and yesterday was my first day back to work after a mandatory quarantine because I had symptoms. Like literally got off the phone with my boss at 130 pm and dozed off on the sofa...woke up at 1230am...11 hours later. I had a cycle of sleeping for almost 12  hours, being awake for a few, then sleeping another 12 for the entire week. It was weird. Then I woke up once thinking it was xmas and called my daughter. Had a screaming sore throat and felt generally flu-y and achy. Really winded just walking to the bathroom. I tested negative. I don't trust the tests, but my symptoms, whatever they were, have gone away. It is kind of my sick season anyway, but I couldn't justify going into work when they also seemed like covid symptoms.
> 
> Still not sure about the vaccine. I said yes that I would take it, but there is still a big question in my head on whether or not it is safe. And maybe I am just listening to too many theories on both ends, but I am not going to be the one lucky lottery winner that was offered the vax and declined, only to catch it and get super sick or die later. Not with what I have witnessed over the past 9 months.
> 
> edit:  Not sure of the significance...but before today we havent heard anything about an actual plan. Then I got the text asking for an immediate decision. It was a yes or no...RIGHT NOW.


I wonder if you should take another test before you take the vaccine?  I would guess that your reaction to the vaccine would be enhanced if you have had Covid.  At least ask, it might make your decision on what to do more clear to you.  I agree that it is a little bit scary to take it, but the alternatives seem much more grim.  I am going to take it when it is available to me. Sending good luck to you, Kim.  Let us know how it goes.  OH, and sorry you have been so sick!  It surely sounds like Covid.


----------



## beckster51

Kiti Williams said:


> I have 1 personal contact that has had Covid-19.  1.  I live in a small town where just about everyone is related by blood and/or marriage.  The person who contracted the CCP virus is from my Quilting Guild and does not live near me.
> I work with our local food bank and have seen, nor heard of, anyone who has had it.  I filled the position of Lay Chaplain and did not get prayers for friend or family of those that were receiving our services. I guess all the cases we have had are of the asymptomatic kind.


Your community is lucky, indeed, but don't let your guard down, it will get there eventually.  Stay well!


----------



## Kiti Williams

beckster51 said:


> Your community is lucky, indeed, but don't let your guard down, it will get there eventually.  Stay well!



 Yes, we must be.  The whole family came down with something during last year's winter break.  It went from not feeling well for me - to full on fever and such for my hubby.  Both kids were off a bit as well.  This went on for 8 days, thereabouts.  My oldest kid is sure it was covid.


----------



## beckster51

Kiti Williams said:


> Yes, we must be.  The whole family came down with something during last year's winter break.  It went from not feeling well for me - to full on fever and such for my hubby.  Both kids were off a bit as well.  This went on for 8 days, thereabouts.  My oldest kid is sure it was covid.


Well, let's hope that it was!  Then you have no worries.


----------



## linne1gi

beckster51 said:


> Well, let's hope that it was!  Then you have no worries.


Well not exactly - since no one seems to know how long immunity lasts.


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> Well not exactly - since no one seems to know how long immunity lasts.


The lastest studies say that immunity lasts several months or longer.  The earlier studies said that it was very short-lived, but they have corrected that assumption.  Unless you know something I don't?  If I thought I might have had Covid, I would certainly get an antibody test to see if I had them.  It has not been difficult to get that test in my area yet.


----------



## Kiti Williams

beckster51 said:


> Well, let's hope that it was!  Then you have no worries.



 We have an active homeless population, all are still going strong.  I just wonder what the other places are doing for their numbers to be so high.  There have been 3 covid warnings from my granddaughter's school, she was not in the area the infected people were in.  I fear that all of us will get this virus, one way or another.


----------



## linne1gi

beckster51 said:


> The lastest studies say that immunity lasts several months or longer.  The earlier studies said that it was very short-lived, but they have corrected that assumption.  Unless you know something I don't?  If I thought I might have had Covid, I would certainly get an antibody test to see if I had them.  It has not been difficult to get that test in my area yet.


Not difficult but expensive.


----------



## GemstonePony

linne1gi said:


> Not difficult but expensive.


Also why I haven't tried getting one. I had a horrid bug early this year, and my lungs still feel a little weird.


----------



## earlene

cmzaha said:


> After taking all the precautions my husband brought it home from his 1-day week transport job for a retirement facility. He always wore his mask was over six feet from the passengers on his bus, but it did not help us. We have both been very sick since before Thanksgiving. I came down with it a week after my husband and this is the first day I have really been up. This is a very nasty dangerous virus so anyone that ignores the warnings I very much hope you do not get it. I am very concerned about my husband he is not getting over it. I have been fortunate to have not had it as bad, but bad enough, but my husband just cannot shake it. This Virus is Not a game, and I for one will most likely risk taking the vaccine when it comes available.


*Carolyn*, I am so sorry to read this.  My prayers for you both.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@cmzaha I‘m very sorry to hear that you’ve been ill and that your husband is still dealing with the infection.  I’m sure this is a challenging time for both of you. I hope he starts feeling better soon.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Our governor is worried about the very steep increase in hospitalizations in Virginia and just today imposed a curfew for bars and dropped gathering size back to 10.  I think it’s going to be a very long winter with high mental health costs for many.

My bright spot today was doing a zoom drop-in session for the graduate students in the program I administer.  Only a handful showed up, but those that did seem to be doing well/staying resilient.


----------



## dibbles

@cmzaha I'm so sorry to hear this. You and hubby take care, and I hope you are both back to feeling good very soon.


----------



## dibbles

My DIL's maternity leave ends tomorrow. My not-quite-3-months-old grandson was supposed to start daycare on Monday. They found out that there was a confirmed covid case (in the infant room) at the daycare and it is closed for 10 days. I'm thankful it happened before he went, but I do hope that little infected baby is okay and the other babies in that room don't get sick.


----------



## Basil

Mobjack Bay said:


> Our governor is worried about the very steep increase in hospitalizations in Virginia and just today imposed a curfew for bars and dropped gathering size back to 10.  I think it’s going to be a very long winter with high mental health costs for many.
> 
> My bright spot today was doing a zoom drop-in session for the graduate students in the program I administer.  Only a handful showed up, but those that did seem to be doing well/staying resilient.


I read that today as I follow Virginia. My daughter is a nurse in Roanoke.  What program do you administer? I bet that was a bright spot!


----------



## Catscankim

linne1gi said:


> Not difficult but expensive.


Some of the blood banks are offering free antibody tests with a blood donation.


----------



## earlene

Catscankim said:


> Some of the blood banks are offering free antibody tests with a blood donation.


That is an option for some.  My dad was a dedicated donor.  I always envied him that, but I was rejected for donation a couple of times in my career, for not meeting the minimum weight requirement and also exposure to certain infectious diseases in my workplace, then my doctor advised against it, so I quit trying to donate.  Now I do meet the weight requirement, however, I am on medications that are not acceptable for blood donation.  Sadly, even though my blood type is the universal plasma donor, and I would donate, but I do not meet the criteria.


----------



## Lin19687

I wish people would stop being stupid and STOP having ANY gatherings !
Yeah Yeah boo hoo, you miss your friends, extended family.

It isn't going to end until people start staying away from others.
We here are having a big spread just because of this.  People thinking they won't get it and their "friend' is the only person they see.... ummm are you stapled to their hip 24 hours a day?  Then NO you don't know where they have been and it is not safe.

I still shudder when I have to go to the grocery.  I go every 2-3 weeks, glad it is only my DD and I.
Everything get wiped off with alcohol and I still don't buy fresh fruit or veggies.  I'm just not.
Then again I can't take any chances. Do I sound paranoid?  Sure, wish more people would.
If something happens to me my DD is all alone, there is no one to take her. And with mental issues that makes it harder.

So please people, the holiday is upon us.  Stay Home.


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> Some of the blood banks are offering free antibody tests with a blood donation.


The CDC is now saying that you can trust you have 3 months, if not more,  of immunity if you have had Covid, but they also recommend that people who have had Covid take the vaccine.  Just thought I would pass that along to you, Kim.  Hope things are going well.


----------



## violets2217

So every year I take the week before Christmas off for my vacation. I use this time to clean and catch up on household stuff. I also spend a day baking lots and lots of Christmas cookies. I usually make boxes up for my neighbors. My son asked if I was still doing it this year due to the pandemic. He just wanted to make sure I was still making cookies for us! But although I was still planning to bake cookies for my neighbors, my son got me thinking. What is your opinion? Should I hold off sending homemade cookie to my neighbors this year?


----------



## beckster51

violets2217 said:


> So every year I take the week before Christmas off for my vacation. I use this time to clean and catch up on household stuff. I also spend a day baking lots and lots of Christmas cookies. I usually make boxes up for my neighbors. My son asked if I was still doing it this year due to the pandemic. He just wanted to make sure I was still making cookies for us! But although I was still planning to bake cookies for my neighbors, my son got me thinking. What is your opinion? Should I hold off sending homemade cookie to my neighbors this year?


It's hard to know what to do!  I usually do this too, and I have read that the experts say there is no risk.  However, I think a lot of people will throw them in the garbage if I hand them out this year, so I am leaning toward not doing it.  It's pretty labor intensive, and it's expensive, and I hate to think of them being thrown away.  I'm sure my neighbors would not tell me if that was what they were planning to do in order not to hurt my feelings.


----------



## Lin19687

violets2217 said:


> So every year I take the week before Christmas off for my vacation. I use this time to clean and catch up on household stuff. I also spend a day baking lots and lots of Christmas cookies. I usually make boxes up for my neighbors. My son asked if I was still doing it this year due to the pandemic. He just wanted to make sure I was still making cookies for us! But although I was still planning to bake cookies for my neighbors, my son got me thinking. What is your opinion? Should I hold off sending homemade cookie to my neighbors this year?


Don't send anything.  If my neighbor did that, even if I loved them dearly, I would toss in trash with a glove on.
Why risk it. Send an email that says "sorry no cookies this year just a no touch Card  "
I don't even want to touch mail because there have been many hand touching it


----------



## cmzaha

beckster51 said:


> It's hard to know what to do!  I usually do this too, and I have read that the experts say there is no risk.  However, I think a lot of people will throw them in the garbage if I hand them out this year, so I am leaning toward not doing it.  It's pretty labor intensive, and it's expensive, and I hate to think of them being thrown away.  I'm sure my neighbors would not tell me if that was what they were planning to do in order not to hurt my feelings.


My daughter was going to order cookies from her sister to give to the neighbors but backed off. They are a lot of work and I am afraid they would get thrown away, although my daughter did recently get a cookie order from a co-worker of her husband. My daughter puts a tremendous amount of work into her cookie decorating so I told her to just send us some.

I want to thank all of you for the well wishes. Hopefully, we are finally turning the corner with this miserable virus, but it is costing us spending the Holiday with my granddaughter I so badly miss. :-(


----------



## beckster51

cmzaha said:


> My daughter was going to order cookies from her sister to give to the neighbors but backed off. They are a lot of work and I am afraid they would get thrown away, although my daughter did recently get a cookie order from a co-worker of her husband. My daughter puts a tremendous amount of work into her cookie decorating so I told her to just send us some.
> 
> I want to thank all of you for the well wishes. Hopefully, we are finally turning the corner with this miserable virus, but it is costing us spending the Holiday with my granddaughter I so badly miss. :-(


I am so glad that you both are feeling well enough to miss your granddaughter.  It could be so much worse.  Hang in there!


----------



## AliOop

beckster51 said:


> It's hard to know what to do!  I usually do this too, and I have read that the experts say there is no risk.  However, I think a lot of people will throw them in the garbage if I hand them out this year, so I am leaning toward not doing it.  It's pretty labor intensive, and it's expensive, and I hate to think of them being thrown away.  I'm sure my neighbors would not tell me if that was what they were planning to do in order not to hurt my feelings.


Maybe you could ask them whether they want the cookies? That would give them a graceful out if they are concerned, and also let you give to those who are not concerned.

@cmzaha so glad you and Tony are turning the corner with this nasty thing. And I am with you re: missing the grandkids.


----------



## fish123

_"*While researchers are hopeful that current candidates will stop not only symptoms but also transmission, no COVID vaccine has proven that capability yet.* " 
And:
"While it's possible that one or more of the vaccines could produce sterilizing immunity, it currently remains unproven. "
And:
"While experts learn more about the protection that COVID-19 vaccines provide under real-life conditions, it will be important for everyone to continue using all the tools available to us to help stop this pandemic, like covering your mouth and nose with a mask .... " ( The COVID Vaccine May Not Prevent Tranmission, Experts Warn )_

So, vaccine manufacturers never proved that it can stop the transmission. So - people should take a part in unprescendent medical experiment and everything stays the same like wearing masks and lockdowns (hopefully it would not bring some surprizes later on, like SwineFlu Vaccine brought narcolepsy (uncurable progressing neurological desease) in many : Narcolepsy Following 2009 Pandemrix Influenza Vaccination in Europe | Vaccine Safety | CDC , which set on as late as year after vaccination, and  as trial participants in case of COVID19 vaccine are observed only two months after getting shots)
And considering the fact NEVER EVER before mRNA vaccine was approved, but many trials showed that mRNA therapies hat lots of severes side effects resulting in stopping research.
And now suddenly new TYPE of vaccine approved after two months of clinical trial (with half of test persons out of manufacturers employees and their families) - and I should believe it is totally safe? I will better bet on my loss of smell I had for a week mid January 2020...


----------



## TheGecko

Boss just called...new co-worker just tested positive for Covid so we are off work for the next three days.  He called in sick on Friday and got tested.

I sit a good 12 feet from him and know we didn’t share any equipment outside of the printer. I did give him cash on Thursday for lunch and he handed me my sealed food.

Boss’s doctor said that if anyone is going to get sick, it will be within the next couple of days (hence the three days off).  I’ll call my doctor in the morning.

ETA: Just called my son, we were supposed to go up to his place on Saturday. We have rescheduled Christmas for January and will combine son’s birthday, DIL’s birthday, and grandson’s 1st birthday.

And on a fantastic note...son sent me a picture of the ring he got his girlfriend (I call her my DIL); he’s going to propose Christmas Eve..  I’ve been praying for this day.  He talked to her folks...they gave their blessing.  Son and DIL have two children.


----------



## beckster51

TheGecko said:


> Boss just called...new co-worker just tested positive for Covid so we are off work for the next three days.  He called in sick on Friday and got tested.
> 
> I sit a good 12 feet from him and know we didn’t share any equipment outside of the printer. I did give him cash on Thursday for lunch and he handed me my sealed food.
> 
> Boss’s doctor said that if anyone is going to get sick, it will be within the next couple of days (hence the three days off).  I’ll call my doctor in the morning.
> 
> ETA: Just called my son, we were supposed to go up to his place on Saturday. We have rescheduled Christmas for January and will combine son’s birthday, DIL’s birthday, and grandson’s 1st birthday.
> 
> And on a fantastic note...son sent me a picture of the ring he got his girlfriend (I call her my DIL); he’s going to propose Christmas Eve..  I’ve been praying for this day.  He talked to her folks...they gave their blessing.  Son and DIL have two children.


Sounds like you should be safe enough, but I will be thinking good thoughts.  Congratulations on a new DIL!  Good news in bad times.


----------



## Becky1024

violets2217 said:


> So every year I take the week before Christmas off for my vacation. I use this time to clean and catch up on household stuff. I also spend a day baking lots and lots of Christmas cookies. I usually make boxes up for my neighbors. My son asked if I was still doing it this year due to the pandemic. He just wanted to make sure I was still making cookies for us! But although I was still planning to bake cookies for my neighbors, my son got me thinking. What is your opinion? Should I hold off sending homemade cookie to my neighbors this year?


I always make up plates of homemade cookies and give them to neighbors and friends. I will do it again this year. If they choose to throw them away that's fine with me, it's the thought that counts. 

Any homemade goodies that I receive will either go into my "COVID holding area" where I keep all packages for a at least day before unwrapping them, or I will disinfect the package with 70% alcohol before opening.


----------



## Daisy

Becky1024 said:


> I always make up plates of homemade cookies and give them to neighbors and friends. I will do it again this year. If they choose to throw them away that's fine with me, it's the thought that counts.
> 
> Any homemade goodies that I receive will either go into my "COVID holding area" where I keep all packages for a at least day before unwrapping them, or I will disinfect the package with 70% alcohol before opening.


   I'm sure your neighbors and friends will appreciate 
Like in restaurants, add another precaution of wearing a mask and gloves as you make and pack them.
I'm doing that with all my gifts.


----------



## Catscankim

I heard on the news that although the vaccine will be in Florida today (Monday), Palm Beach County where I work won't be getting it for another couple of weeks. Now that I have decided to get it, that was a bummer when I woke up this morning. But then it also gives us a few weeks to see how it affects everybody else lol. Although it kinda blows my mind because its one of the highest counties for covid. I dunno. Next to Miami, we kinda thought we would be one of the first ones on the list.

I was talking to one of our Trauma Nurses tonight who was one of the first ones in the hospital to contract covid early on. She was really sick for about 8 weeks. She is conducting her own personal experiment to see how long she has antibodies by getting tested once a week. So far she still has them, and it's been about 7 months.


----------



## RyloKen

At work, as a teacher, if anything comes from home we have to quarantine for 72 hours. Same with my daughter who works in a clothes shop, any returned clothes have to sit by for 72 hours. I hopes this helps with time frames for setting things aside.


----------



## Obsidian

Looks like rates are dropping in my county. Went from around 125 a day to 25-30. 

The infections rate started going down about a week after the the mask mandate went into affect, weird


----------



## KimW

RyloKen said:


> At work, as a teacher, if anything comes from home we have to quarantine for 72 hours. Same with my daughter who works in a clothes shop, any returned clothes have to sit by for 72 hours. I hopes this helps with time frames for setting things aside.


We spray delivered packages with Lysol and have setup a quarantine area in our garage where packages, and mail, sit for at least 72 hours.  Everything, including contents of quarantined packages and groceries, that comes into the house gets wiped down with 151 Everclear (75% grain alcohol) and allowed to air dry or, if clothing, gets thrown into the washer immediately.  Letters/cards/bills get tended to after they've quarantined, and we wash/sanitize hands after handling.  External car handles/door frames (you know, where you put your hand to shut the door) get wiped, car insides and shoe soles get sprayed, floor where groceries sat gets sprayed, grocery bags and clothes/coat get washed after coming home from grocery shopping.  It sounds like a lot, but it's funny how quickly it becomes routine, although I do mutter a bit at the tedium of wiping down canned food!  I might have already written, I bet our little Village thinks we've become alcoholics since we're buying so much Everclear - LOL  We can get hard liquor less half-a-mile away, but not butterscotch chips?!   - but I digress. I sometimes think we're being freakish, and I feel bad when I don't open packages/letters from friends immediately, but then I receive a package from someone who became sick and tested positive just days later with COVID (which certainly means they had COVID when packing up my package) and I no longer feel freakish. I have a 94 yr-young Great Aunt (still driving...doh!) who was exposed three weeks ago, and who tested negative. Not that I want her to live forever - well, OK, I do - but I'd rather her not die alone in a hospital from COVID.  I'm looking forward to the vaccine.


----------



## cmzaha

My sister called me last night informing me Caremore called to make an appointment to give my 94 yr old mom the vaccine. If you recall the 40k mess with my sister, now she calls me for my opinion... My sister has full POA medical, anyhoo I digress, I told her my opinion is no. They really go nowhere and I do not approve of using elders as guinea pigs. This vaccine, I do not care what anyone tells me, has been too political in nature and fast-tracked. I do not believe a few months of testing can prove what is going to come up a year from now, 2 yrs. Yes, this is a hateful nasty virus, but we have all know for years viruses are getting more resistant and harder to deal with. Enough with my opinions. I am not planning on getting the vaccine and fortunately, now I am not on the immediate list.

Guess what, you can take all the precautions and still get this virus if you leave your bubble. Ask me how I know.


----------



## KimW

I hear you, @cmzaha. My Great Aunt feels the same way and is thankful she's not in a nursing home so that she's not forced to get the vaccine.  Perhaps I should have expounded on my post, but it was already so long...  I agree with her and, while I do look forward to getting the vaccine for myself, I think it so very wrong and downright atrocious that it seems we're using the most vulnerable of our population as guinea pigs.  

That said, I was in a USAF unit type code that required being ready for travel anywhere at anytime, meaning I received enough vaccines to fill multiple immunization cards, and my Dad headed a county CDC, so my perspective on vaccines is likely different to most folks.


----------



## Marsi

Australian company Ellume has designed and had approved a COVID home test kit
the US FDA has approved it
the test takes about 20 minutes and the expected cost (according to the CEO/doctor of Ellume on the news this morning) is $30






						Made in Australia - good news!
					

Exciting news this morning!  Australia has developed a 20 minute home test for Covid and the FDA in America has just approved it for home use  The CEO/Doctor of Ellume was on our morning news to tell us that they are producing 100,000 units a day and, to begin with, it's all being shipped to the...



					www.soapmakingforum.com
				




(we dont need it here, so you are getting all of the first rounds - it works on testing for a protein, so it is super quick)


----------



## Lin19687

Just saw this this morning.   Boris Johnson to hold emergency meeting as concerns grow over new coronavirus variant

Anyone that thought this was close to being over..... well things changed I guess.

Let the games begin on what will happen next and how/if that changes the vaccine %'s on success 

Personally I think if you shut the world down, a Real stay at home for a month, should stop it. I know that won't happen but I  see no other way of stopping the spread


----------



## Misschief

And.... I just read an article that said South Africa is dealing with a variant as well, different from the UK variant. It could be a while before this is behind us.


----------



## Obsidian

What I don't get is why all international travel isn't banned. It should have been right off the bat and stayed that way until the vaccine has been distributed world wide.
I would be completely ok with banning travel between states too.

We had very few cases until travel restrictions were lifted and all the tourists showed up for the summer


----------



## Misschief

Obsidian said:


> What I don't get is why all international travel isn't banned. It should have been right off the bat and stayed that way until the vaccine has been distributed world wide.
> I would be completely ok with banning travel between states too.
> 
> We had very few cases until travel restrictions were lifted and all the tourists showed up for the summer


Here, too. The majority of cases at the beginnning of all this were out of area visitors who came to party. Perish the thought that their summer fun could be cancelled! No, instead they shared Covid with the locals. 

Even now, the province of Manitoba has been completely shut down; someone was mentioning to me that they couldn't believe the number of vehicles with Manitoba license plates here in town. We're in BC, three provinces over! They HAD to do their Christmas shopping somewhere, right?


----------



## Catscankim

This is frustrating. FINALLY we got the vaccine in the county that i work in. They distributed to our hospital, but we cannot get it until the 28th because our employee health department is on xmas leave until after xmas. And then we need an appointment!

What in the actual (heck). I finally decided to take it. Even if i didnt i would be mad. How can they make that decision?? 2 girls that work in an office type setting saying no...they are on xmas leave.

So you guys get a week off, while we are working with covid pts. Our numbers are up, and this is your decision? Enjoy your time off.

Employee health, we cant even go there for our yearly tests....they even did away with our tb test, they are so afraid of being exposed to us.

AND THEN i was talking to this nurse tonight that said something about a waiver he had to sign. Im like “ what waiver”. He said he was given a waiver. I never got one, neither did trauma...i asked. Nobody heard of anything to sign.


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> AND THEN i was talking to this nurse tonight that said something about a waiver he had to sign. Im like “ what waiver”. He said he was given a waiver. I never got one, neither did trauma...i asked. Nobody heard of anything to sign.


WTH?   I don't get it either!  I know you must be terribly frustrated. It sounds like these people are living in an alternate reality to me, and I cannot believe the hospital administration or the nurses in EH think this is acceptable.  People!


----------



## Catscankim

Beyond frustrated. And “alternate reality” is a great way to describe them.

My vaccine is scheduled for January 4th at 3:30. It was the first available. They are only doing vaccines on Mondays and Thursdays. What a joke our employee heath is lol.

A couple of  years ago with the old girls, they set up three stations for flu shots and had us just "badge in'. Go to the cafeteria,..get a flu shot. Got it all done in a week.  these new girls are so afraid of us LOL. One vac every half hour. I have no words. But I am scheduled nonetheless

The general public will probably be vaccinated before we all get done at the hospital LOL

Edit: I stood there waiting for one of them to come in in the morning one time. They were supposed to be open at 7:30. I worked overnight so I waited for her to open. She walked in at 8:05. I was livid. Then she turned me away because I didn't do something right with my paperwork. Like put a date on it or something stupid. This was just to pick up proof of a flu shot for my other job. She stood there looking me in the face telling me the she was very busy...with a Starbucks coffee in her hand after I just saw her walk in the door. If she was like "OMG I am so sorry I'm late" I would have been fine with that. I left without my form...then got a phone call 15 minutes after I was already on my way home that it was ready to pick up. I stopped by the next morning and didn't get it again because she said that she didn't have a record of my flu shot.

So we have vaccines, but can only get them on her schedule...


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> Beyond frustrated. And “alternate reality” is a great way to describe them.
> 
> My vaccine is scheduled for January 4th at 3:30. It was the first available. They are only doing vaccines on Mondays and Thursdays. What a joke our employee heath is lol.
> 
> A couple of  years ago with the old girls, they set up three stations for flu shots and had us just "badge in'. Go to the cafeteria,..get a flu shot. Got it all done in a week.  these new girls are so afraid of us LOL. One vac every half hour. I have no words. But I am scheduled nonetheless
> 
> The general public will probably be vaccinated before we all get done at the hospital LOL
> 
> Edit: I stood there waiting for one of them to come in in the morning one time. They were supposed to be open at 7:30. I worked overnight so I waited for her to open. She walked in at 8:05. I was livid. Then she turned me away because I didn't do something right with my paperwork. Like put a date on it or something stupid. This was just to pick up proof of a flu shot for my other job. She stood there looking me in the face telling me the she was very busy...with a Starbucks coffee in her hand after I just saw her walk in the door. If she was like "OMG I am so sorry I'm late" I would have been fine with that. I left without my form...then got a phone call 15 minutes after I was already on my way home that it was ready to pick up. I stopped by the next morning and didn't get it again because she said that she didn't have a record of my flu shot.
> 
> So we have vaccines, but can only get them on her schedule...


I am so sorry you are having to deal with such incompetence, Kim.  As if you didn't have enough stress already!  I read an article yesterday that this is happening in several places across the country.  Evidently many people feel no urgency in administering the vaccine.  All I can say, is HUH?!


----------



## Susie

We have people living in independent living apartments that got the vaccine before our hospital workers got it. Not to mention police, fire dept, or other first responders. I know they are at high risk (ish) but these are in independent living, not a nursing home. I am waiting for my phone call. I have registered for the vaccine with every doctor I have as well as my workplace.


----------



## beckster51

Susie said:


> We have people living in independent living apartments that got the vaccine before our hospital workers got it. Not to mention police, fire dept, or other first responders. I know they are at high risk (ish) but these are in independent living, not a nursing home. I am waiting for my phone call. I have registered for the vaccine with every doctor I have as well as my workplace.


I think that is what happens when politicians interfere with public health authorities recommendations.  From what I understand the governors of Texas and Florida have decided not to follow the recommendations.  I am married to a very, very high risk man and neither of us think as long as he is able to shelter here with his caregiver that he should receive the vaccine before first responders.  It's shameful.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> Beyond frustrated. And “alternate reality” is a great way to describe them.
> 
> My vaccine is scheduled for January 4th at 3:30. It was the first available. They are only doing vaccines on Mondays and Thursdays. What a joke our employee heath is lol.
> 
> A couple of  years ago with the old girls, they set up three stations for flu shots and had us just "badge in'. Go to the cafeteria,..get a flu shot. Got it all done in a week.  these new girls are so afraid of us LOL. One vac every half hour. I have no words. But I am scheduled nonetheless
> 
> The general public will probably be vaccinated before we all get done at the hospital LOL
> 
> Edit: I stood there waiting for one of them to come in in the morning one time. They were supposed to be open at 7:30. I worked overnight so I waited for her to open. She walked in at 8:05. I was livid. Then she turned me away because I didn't do something right with my paperwork. Like put a date on it or something stupid. This was just to pick up proof of a flu shot for my other job. She stood there looking me in the face telling me the she was very busy...with a Starbucks coffee in her hand after I just saw her walk in the door. If she was like "OMG I am so sorry I'm late" I would have been fine with that. I left without my form...then got a phone call 15 minutes after I was already on my way home that it was ready to pick up. I stopped by the next morning and didn't get it again because she said that she didn't have a record of my flu shot.
> 
> So we have vaccines, but can only get them on her schedule...


I just scheduled my vaccine for Monday morning (Dec.28th).  I think if I had been paying attention, I could have gotten it on Thursday when most of my colleagues got it.  But I usually only work on Friday, so didn't pay attention to the email.  Oh well.


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> I just scheduled my vaccine for Monday morning (Dec.28th).  I think if I had been paying attention, I could have gotten it on Thursday when most of my colleagues got it.  But I usually only work on Friday, so didn't pay attention to the email.  Oh well.


Good for you!  I hope you have absolutely no side effects.  Please let us know how it goes.


----------



## Catscankim

linne1gi said:


> I just scheduled my vaccine for Monday morning (Dec.28th).  I think if I had been paying attention, I could have gotten it on Thursday when most of my colleagues got it.  But I usually only work on Friday, so didn't pay attention to the email.  Oh well.


I didn't pay attention to my email either. So my first available was the 4th. Other than that, it wasn't available at all until the holiday was over. LOL. I have a consent form to sign...I can't figure out how to upload pics from my new computer yet so I will type it...excuse the typos 


_you should not get this vaccine if you had a severe reaction after a previous dose of this vaccine, had a reaction to any ingredient of this vaccine, are under 16 years of age, have any allergies, have a fever, have a bleeding disorder or are on a blood thinners, are immunocompromised, pregnant, breastfeeding, or have received another covid 19 vaccine._

Just basic stuff written out on a long bulletted form that you need to check off each box yes or no. I am weirded out about the "any allergies" part. I mean, almost everybody has allergies.

They opened up our covid units again. And sooo many ppl are coming in to the er with it..

Then I had a lady that knew she had it. Coughing, pulliing off her mask. I kept telling her to put her surgical mask on for transport. She didn't care... Taking it off to cough. Threw it on the floor, I got her another one and physically put it on her face. Finally I was like "YOU ARE EXPOSING EVERYBODY AROUND YOU PUT THE MASK ON" She was just really sloppy about it. Then I stopped someone in the hallway to tell them I had a covid pt and she got all "thats a hippa violation" on me lol. "There are no rules here, and if you PUT YOUR MASK ON there wouldn't be a problem" 

She wouldn't move herself from her stretcher to the ct table. She is younger than me. I get it, she is sick. I personally moved myself from one bed to the other just to see what it is like...It is harder than to just stand up...which she COULD have.  So we had to slide this mammoth of a woman (200kg) over and she scratched me, even through my ppe. OK you are so sick that you can't move over or get up to go on the table, BUT YOU MANAGED TO GET YOUR NAILS DONE (in my head, i din't say that to her lol) Finally she is on the table and I need some consent forms signed (which I should have done prior to moving her over). 

She says she might be pregnant. SERIOUSLY??? Now everything is contaminated and every thing stops...Shes coughing all over the place and won't keep a mask on. I am dying of sweat in my ppe. I want to kill somebody at this point, Nurse comes in to do a preg test. Now another one exposed right? After the whole ordeal, she says she hasnt had sex in years. JC really? This is the reality that we live in. I had to shut down one ct scanner just to clean after her.

It ain't the parties or the family gatherings...It is people like this person here.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> I didn't pay attention to my email either. So my first available was the 4th. Other than that, it wasn't available at all until the holiday was over. LOL. I have a consent form to sign...I can't figure out how to upload pics from my new computer yet so I will type it...excuse the typos
> 
> 
> _you should not get this vaccine if you had a severe reaction after a previous dose of this vaccine, had a reaction to any ingredient of this vaccine, are under 16 years of age, have any allergies, have a fever, have a bleeding disorder or are on a blood thinners, are immunocompromised, pregnant, breastfeeding, or have received another covid 19 vaccine._
> 
> Just basic stuff written out on a long bulletted form that you need to check off each box yes or no. I am weirded out about the "any allergies" part. I mean, almost everybody has allergies.
> 
> They opened up our covid units again. And sooo many ppl are coming in to the er with it..
> 
> Then I had a lady that knew she had it. Coughing, pulliing off her mask. I kept telling her to put her surgical mask on for transport. She didn't care... Taking it off to cough. Threw it on the floor, I got her another one and physically put it on her face. Finally I was like "YOU ARE EXPOSING EVERYBODY AROUND YOU PUT THE MASK ON" She was just really sloppy about it. Then I stopped someone in the hallway to tell them I had a covid pt and she got all "thats a hippa violation" on me lol. "There are no rules here, and if you PUT YOUR MASK ON there wouldn't be a problem"
> 
> She wouldn't move herself from her stretcher to the ct table. She is younger than me. I get it, she is sick. I personally moved myself from one bed to the other just to see what it is like...It is harder than to just stand up...which she COULD have.  So we had to slide this mammoth of a woman (200kg) over and she scratched me, even through my ppe. OK you are so sick that you can't move over or get up to go on the table, BUT YOU MANAGED TO GET YOUR NAILS DONE (in my head, i din't say that to her lol) Finally she is on the table and I need some consent forms signed (which I should have done prior to moving her over).
> 
> She says she might be pregnant. SERIOUSLY??? Now everything is contaminated and every thing stops...Shes coughing all over the place and won't keep a mask on. I am dying of sweat in my ppe. I want to kill somebody at this point, Nurse comes in to do a preg test. Now another one exposed right? After the whole ordeal, she says she hasnt had sex in years. JC really? This is the reality that we live in. I had to shut down one ct scanner just to clean after her.
> 
> It ain't the parties or the family gatherings...It is people like this person here.


That’s such a sad story. I have no words. Cannot wait until you get the vaccine.


----------



## Microchick

Catscankim said:


> This is frustrating. FINALLY we got the vaccine in the county that i work in. They distributed to our hospital, but we cannot get it until the 28th because our employee health department is on xmas leave until after xmas. And then we need an appointment!
> 
> What in the actual (heck). I finally decided to take it. Even if i didnt i would be mad. How can they make that decision?? 2 girls that work in an office type setting saying no...they are on xmas leave.
> 
> So you guys get a week off, while we are working with covid pts. Our numbers are up, and this is your decision? Enjoy your time off.
> 
> Employee health, we cant even go there for our yearly tests....they even did away with our tb test, they are so afraid of being exposed to us.
> 
> AND THEN i was talking to this nurse tonight that said something about a waiver he had to sign. Im like “ what waiver”. He said he was given a waiver. I never got one, neither did trauma...i asked. Nobody heard of anything to sign.


How are they going to keep the vaccine at the proper temperature that long?  Horrible, horrible mismanagement from the top down.   The hospital had plenty of time to make a good plan.


----------



## linne1gi

Microchick said:


> How are they going to keep the vaccine at the proper temperature that long?  Horrible, horrible mismanagement from the top down.   The hospital had plenty of time to make a good plan.


I'm not sure about @Catscankim, but we are getting the Moderna vaccine - which doesn't need the minus 80F that the Pfizer vaccine needs.


----------



## The Park Bench

Catscankim said:


> I didn't pay attention to my email either. So my first available was the 4th. Other than that, it wasn't available at all until the holiday was over. LOL. I have a consent form to sign...I can't figure out how to upload pics from my new computer yet so I will type it...excuse the typos
> 
> 
> _you should not get this vaccine if you had a severe reaction after a previous dose of this vaccine, had a reaction to any ingredient of this vaccine, are under 16 years of age, have any allergies, have a fever, have a bleeding disorder or are on a blood thinners, are immunocompromised, pregnant, breastfeeding, or have received another covid 19 vaccine._
> 
> Just basic stuff written out on a long bulletted form that you need to check off each box yes or no. I am weirded out about the "any allergies" part. I mean, almost everybody has allergies.
> 
> They opened up our covid units again. And sooo many ppl are coming in to the er with it..
> 
> Then I had a lady that knew she had it. Coughing, pulliing off her mask. I kept telling her to put her surgical mask on for transport. She didn't care... Taking it off to cough. Threw it on the floor, I got her another one and physically put it on her face. Finally I was like "YOU ARE EXPOSING EVERYBODY AROUND YOU PUT THE MASK ON" She was just really sloppy about it. Then I stopped someone in the hallway to tell them I had a covid pt and she got all "thats a hippa violation" on me lol. "There are no rules here, and if you PUT YOUR MASK ON there wouldn't be a problem"
> 
> She wouldn't move herself from her stretcher to the ct table. She is younger than me. I get it, she is sick. I personally moved myself from one bed to the other just to see what it is like...It is harder than to just stand up...which she COULD have.  So we had to slide this mammoth of a woman (200kg) over and she scratched me, even through my ppe. OK you are so sick that you can't move over or get up to go on the table, BUT YOU MANAGED TO GET YOUR NAILS DONE (in my head, i din't say that to her lol) Finally she is on the table and I need some consent forms signed (which I should have done prior to moving her over).
> 
> She says she might be pregnant. SERIOUSLY??? Now everything is contaminated and every thing stops...Shes coughing all over the place and won't keep a mask on. I am dying of sweat in my ppe. I want to kill somebody at this point, Nurse comes in to do a preg test. Now another one exposed right? After the whole ordeal, she says she hasnt had sex in years. JC really? This is the reality that we live in. I had to shut down one ct scanner just to clean after her.
> 
> It ain't the parties or the family gatherings...It is people like this person here.


I have no words.  I'm angry just reading about what you had to endure.  Know that there are a WHOLE lot of us who appreciate what you do!


----------



## linne1gi

I got my first Moderna vaccine today. No problems at all, my arm is slightly tender that’s all. Next vaccine in 4 weeks - January 25th.


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> I got my first Moderna vaccine today. No problems at all, my arm is slightly tender that’s all. Next vaccine in 4 weeks - January 25th.


Fabulous!  I'm glad you had such a good experience.


----------



## Catscankim

I was talking to somebody last night that was second in line yesterday for the first day of vaccines. He said it was ridiculous and uncoordinated. Their were ppl there that weren't scheduled (doctor's wives)....like how did they get in for the first day of vaccines?? I guess they found a loophole. 

It's not like we haven't done mass vaccines before...like the flu shot. I mentioned before that they held a campaign one week and stationed a few ppl at key places across different shifts...you badged in on their computer (proximity badge) and got your shot. No paperwork to fill out, your badge was your record. Done in a few days. They only have this available during their hours.... 8-4pm.

I can't speak on their logic for this lol. With this they are scheduling one person every 30 minutes. Crazy!! But then they had a line of people waiting. I am going to wait for the frenzy to be over and keep my Jan 4th appt.

I spoke to a few people, so far nobody had any ill-effects.


----------



## GemstonePony

My roommate's Dad tested positive for covid-19. My roommate was visiting her parents over Christmas, so it's a fairly recent exposure. My roommate isn't showing any symptoms and she had it this summer. She's taken a covid-19 test, and it'll be a few days until we get the results back. Meanwhile, neither of us can go anywhere. She'll be working from home, and I'll be not working but also not disruptive. I'm pretty sure I had the virus this spring, but getting it again wouldn't be on my wishlist. This last week of 2020 is very 2020.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> I was talking to somebody last night that was second in line yesterday for the first day of vaccines. He said it was ridiculous and uncoordinated. Their were ppl there that weren't scheduled (doctor's wives)....like how did they get in for the first day of vaccines?? I guess they found a loophole.
> 
> It's not like we haven't done mass vaccines before...like the flu shot. I mentioned before that they held a campaign one week and stationed a few ppl at key places across different shifts...you badged in on their computer (proximity badge) and got your shot. No paperwork to fill out, your badge was your record. Done in a few days. They only have this available during their hours.... 8-4pm.
> 
> I can't speak on their logic for this lol. With this they are scheduling one person every 30 minutes. Crazy!! But then they had a line of people waiting. I am going to wait for the frenzy to be over and keep my Jan 4th appt.
> 
> I spoke to a few people, so far nobody had any ill-effects.


I actually thought where I had the vaccine it was pretty well organized. My appointment was for 9:30 and they were scheduled every 10 minutes.  There were 3 stations for injections, so they could have 18 people every hour. I was taken about 15 minutes early and had to wait 1/2 hour after the shot, but I was out of there by 9:45.


----------



## glendam

my cousin in law (if that is a thing) works at a hospital and got her vaccine recently.  She knows we won’t be able to get it for a while, but wanted to give us her recommendation to schedule it for a weekend or when we will have time off after.  Apparently she wasn’t feeling too well initially or it was up and down.  It is probably different for everybody though.  She mentioned that the follow up shot will be in January and that one is supposed to be stronger, I would be curious to see what everyone’s experience is, who have had the shot.


----------



## linne1gi

glendam said:


> my cousin in law (if that is a thing) works at a hospital and got her vaccine recently.  She knows we won’t be able to get it for a while, but wanted to give us her recommendation to schedule it for a weekend or when we will have time off after.  Apparently she wasn’t feeling too well initially or it was up and down.  It is probably different for everybody though.  She mentioned that the follow up shot will be in January and that one is supposed to be stronger, I would be curious to see what everyone’s experience is, who have had the shot.


To my knowledge, the 2nd dose is stronger.


----------



## Catscankim

GemstonePony said:


> My roommate's Dad tested positive for covid-19. My roommate was visiting her parents over Christmas, so it's a fairly recent exposure. My roommate isn't showing any symptoms and she had it this summer. She's taken a covid-19 test, and it'll be a few days until we get the results back. Meanwhile, neither of us can go anywhere. She'll be working from home, and I'll be not working but also not disruptive. I'm pretty sure I had the virus this spring, but getting it again wouldn't be on my wishlist. This last week of 2020 is very 2020.


One of the nurses that I work with had covid early on. She gets tested for antibodies every week and she is still testing positive for antibodies. I know there are a lot of uncertainties, but hopefully your room mate can't spread it back to you, knowing that she already had it...hopefully that means it isn't going to spread. I have some mixed opinions that I won't share on this (not you, the whole rest of it), but keeping my fingers crossed for you. Has she been tested for antibodies? Blood donations is a good way to get a free antibody test...

They are letting covid+ workers back into work at the hospital if they don't have symptoms, even if they are still positive on their repeat test. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but somebody knows something we don't.

It went from sanitizing walls and floors in the lobby in the beginning, shutting down hallways to transport covid pts, to only cleaning certain areas and transporting patients all over the place... to letting positive workers come back to work based on them saying they don't have symptoms... over the phone, without a follow up at employee health or dr note. For pete's sake, we needed a dr note to come back to work if we were out more than 2 days prior to this. Now you can be out for 10 or 14 and simply tell them you feel better and come back, even still positive. I am not a dr or nurse, so I would like someone who knows better to explain this to me LOL.

I had a patient brought to me from the covid floor. The nurse had on a surgical mask, and literally nothing else. Fiddling with the iv with her bare hands. yeah...that's a bad habit for all of us, but this was a covid patient. What happened to the astronaut/bunny suits? Now no gloves even. Bad practice on a regular day, but we are all guilty of that. I can't even start an iv with gloves on. But with covid patients? And from the covid floor none the less.

I work at two hospitals. I thought this was just at my main job. But my part-time job is the same way.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Catscankim said:


> One of the nurses that I work with had covid early on. She gets tested for antibodies every week and she is still testing positive for antibodies. I know there are a lot of uncertainties, but hopefully your room mate can't spread it back to you, knowing that she already had it...hopefully that means it isn't going to spread. I have some mixed opinions that I won't share on this (not you, the whole rest of it), but keeping my fingers crossed for you. Has she been tested for antibodies? Blood donations is a good way to get a free antibody test...
> 
> They are letting covid+ workers back into work at the hospital if they don't have symptoms, even if they are still positive on their repeat test. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but somebody knows something we don't.
> 
> It went from sanitizing walls and floors in the lobby in the beginning, shutting down hallways to transport covid pts, to only cleaning certain areas and transporting patients all over the place... to letting positive workers come back to work based on them saying they don't have symptoms... over the phone, without a follow up at employee health or dr note. For pete's sake, we needed a dr note to come back to work if we were out more than 2 days prior to this. Now you can be out for 10 or 14 and simply tell them you feel better and come back, even still positive. I am not a dr or nurse, so I would like someone who knows better to explain this to me LOL.
> 
> I had a patient brought to me from the covid floor. The nurse had on a surgical mask, and literally nothing else. Fiddling with the iv with her bare hands. yeah...that's a bad habit for all of us, but this was a covid patient. What happened to the astronaut/bunny suits? Now no gloves even. Bad practice on a regular day, but we are all guilty of that. I can't even start an iv with gloves on. But with covid patients? And from the covid floor none the less.
> 
> I work at two hospitals. I thought this was just at my main job. But my part-time job is the same way.


This is very interesting.  That’s all I’ll say...


----------



## paradisi

That's not someone knowing something you don't, that's someone giving up on controlling the spread. It's not suddenly non contagious.


Catscankim said:


> One of the nurses that I work with had covid early on. She gets tested for antibodies every week and she is still testing positive for antibodies. I know there are a lot of uncertainties, but hopefully your room mate can't spread it back to you, knowing that she already had it...hopefully that means it isn't going to spread. I have some mixed opinions that I won't share on this (not you, the whole rest of it), but keeping my fingers crossed for you. Has she been tested for antibodies? Blood donations is a good way to get a free antibody test...
> 
> They are letting covid+ workers back into work at the hospital if they don't have symptoms, even if they are still positive on their repeat test. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but somebody knows something we don't.
> 
> It went from sanitizing walls and floors in the lobby in the beginning, shutting down hallways to transport covid pts, to only cleaning certain areas and transporting patients all over the place... to letting positive workers come back to work based on them saying they don't have symptoms... over the phone, without a follow up at employee health or dr note. For pete's sake, we needed a dr note to come back to work if we were out more than 2 days prior to this. Now you can be out for 10 or 14 and simply tell them you feel better and come back, even still positive. I am not a dr or nurse, so I would like someone who knows better to explain this to me LOL.
> 
> I had a patient brought to me from the covid floor. The nurse had on a surgical mask, and literally nothing else. Fiddling with the iv with her bare hands. yeah...that's a bad habit for all of us, but this was a covid patient. What happened to the astronaut/bunny suits? Now no gloves even. Bad practice on a regular day, but we are all guilty of that. I can't even start an iv with gloves on. But with covid patients? And from the covid floor none the less.
> 
> I work at two hospitals. I thought this was just at my main job. But my part-time job is the same way.


----------



## Dawni

Two words from the Philippines - what vaccine???? lol

I shouldn't be laughing.. But yeah.


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> One of the nurses that I work with had covid early on. She gets tested for antibodies every week and she is still testing positive for antibodies. I know there are a lot of uncertainties, but hopefully your room mate can't spread it back to you, knowing that she already had it...hopefully that means it isn't going to spread. I have some mixed opinions that I won't share on this (not you, the whole rest of it), but keeping my fingers crossed for you. Has she been tested for antibodies? Blood donations is a good way to get a free antibody test...
> 
> They are letting covid+ workers back into work at the hospital if they don't have symptoms, even if they are still positive on their repeat test. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but somebody knows something we don't.
> 
> It went from sanitizing walls and floors in the lobby in the beginning, shutting down hallways to transport covid pts, to only cleaning certain areas and transporting patients all over the place... to letting positive workers come back to work based on them saying they don't have symptoms... over the phone, without a follow up at employee health or dr note. For pete's sake, we needed a dr note to come back to work if we were out more than 2 days prior to this. Now you can be out for 10 or 14 and simply tell them you feel better and come back, even still positive. I am not a dr or nurse, so I would like someone who knows better to explain this to me LOL.
> 
> I had a patient brought to me from the covid floor. The nurse had on a surgical mask, and literally nothing else. Fiddling with the iv with her bare hands. yeah...that's a bad habit for all of us, but this was a covid patient. What happened to the astronaut/bunny suits? Now no gloves even. Bad practice on a regular day, but we are all guilty of that. I can't even start an iv with gloves on. But with covid patients? And from the covid floor none the less.
> 
> I work at two hospitals. I thought this was just at my main job. But my part-time job is the same way.











						Healthcare Workers
					

COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.




					www.cdc.gov
				




Here are the CDC guidelines for HCP to return to work. They do not recommend that anyone work with a positive test.  If you have a positive test, you can spread the virus even if you don't have symptoms.  That is how most of the spread is occurring, from people who are positive and asymptomatic.  From all that I have read, this is a decision that some hospitals are making in order to keep staffing numbers where they want them to be.  They feel that if HCP wear a mask, then it will be OK.  I certainly hope they are just having positive HCP work on Covid units, but it seems that it would be a risk to their colleagues who are negative.  I guess if I had a choice of having HCP who were positive taking care of me, and not having any HCP taking care of me at all, it would be a time for desperate measures.  But unless that is the situation, I certainly would not want anybody positive coming in my room.  So, I don't think anyone knows any information that is not available if you look in the right places for it.  I do think they have backed off of environmental sanitizing quite a bit since they have documented that it is pretty difficult to catch Covid from an environmental surface if you wash your hands regularly and at times you should, like before preparing food, eating, etc.
And here are their recommendations for strategies to prevent staff shortages.  









						Healthcare Workers
					

COVID-19 guidance, tools, and resources for healthcare workers.




					www.cdc.gov
				




Probably more than you wanted to know, but interesting and important information if you are a working healthcare person.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> One of the nurses that I work with had covid early on. She gets tested for antibodies every week and she is still testing positive for antibodies. I know there are a lot of uncertainties, but hopefully your room mate can't spread it back to you, knowing that she already had it...hopefully that means it isn't going to spread. I have some mixed opinions that I won't share on this (not you, the whole rest of it), but keeping my fingers crossed for you. Has she been tested for antibodies? Blood donations is a good way to get a free antibody test...
> 
> They are letting covid+ workers back into work at the hospital if they don't have symptoms, even if they are still positive on their repeat test. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but somebody knows something we don't.
> 
> It went from sanitizing walls and floors in the lobby in the beginning, shutting down hallways to transport covid pts, to only cleaning certain areas and transporting patients all over the place... to letting positive workers come back to work based on them saying they don't have symptoms... over the phone, without a follow up at employee health or dr note. For pete's sake, we needed a dr note to come back to work if we were out more than 2 days prior to this. Now you can be out for 10 or 14 and simply tell them you feel better and come back, even still positive. I am not a dr or nurse, so I would like someone who knows better to explain this to me LOL.
> 
> I had a patient brought to me from the covid floor. The nurse had on a surgical mask, and literally nothing else. Fiddling with the iv with her bare hands. yeah...that's a bad habit for all of us, but this was a covid patient. What happened to the astronaut/bunny suits? Now no gloves even. Bad practice on a regular day, but we are all guilty of that. I can't even start an iv with gloves on. But with covid patients? And from the covid floor none the less.
> 
> I work at two hospitals. I thought this was just at my main job. But my part-time job is the same way.


This sounds to me like very poor practice,  If that nurse worked at my facility even for one day, she would be let go.  Gloves, gown, hair covering, mask, eye protection, shoe coverings are standard - wear them or go home.  And if you go home, don't ever come back.  We had one nurse who refused to wear all this PPE, she was fired.  This is really sad to hear.


----------



## earlene

Catscankim said:


> This is frustrating. FINALLY we got the vaccine in the county that i work in. They distributed to our hospital, but we cannot get it until the 28th because our employee health department is on xmas leave until after xmas. And then we need an appointment!
> 
> What in the actual (heck). I finally decided to take it. Even if i didnt i would be mad. How can they make that decision?? 2 girls that work in an office type setting saying no...they are on xmas leave.
> 
> So you guys get a week off, while we are working with covid pts. Our numbers are up, and this is your decision? Enjoy your time off.
> 
> Employee health, we cant even go there for our yearly tests....they even did away with our tb test, they are so afraid of being exposed to us.
> 
> AND THEN i was talking to this nurse tonight that said something about a waiver he had to sign. Im like “ what waiver”. He said he was given a waiver. I never got one, neither did trauma...i asked. Nobody heard of anything to sign.


The Pfizer BioNTech vaccine?  Isn't that beyond the 5 day storage limit out of freezer?

Or is it the Moderna vaccine, which can be stored for 30 days out of freezer?

Just wondering if this makes any sense...  Well, as you know, No, it doesn't make sense even if it is the Moderna vaccine, because, hey, selfish-much?  (Not you, Cat, the girls on vacay. - They don't deserve to work in a department called 'employee health'!!!)

Personally, I prefer the Moderna vaccine if I have my druthers.

I have no qualms and have never had any leanings toward anti-vaccination;  I am getting it as soon as I have access.

Oh, BTW, I learned why my husband & his co-workers who were trained to assist with the roll-out of vaccines were never called up for duty.  The current administration dismantled every aspect of the pandemic response program put in place by the previous administration; so the current plan was a re-invention of the wheel, so to speak.  Oh, well.  Maybe someday, we can learn from our past and be better prepared in the future.



Catscankim said:


> One of the nurses that I work with had covid early on. She gets tested for antibodies every week and she is still testing positive for antibodies. I know there are a lot of uncertainties, but hopefully your room mate can't spread it back to you, knowing that she already had it...hopefully that means it isn't going to spread. I have some mixed opinions that I won't share on this (not you, the whole rest of it), but keeping my fingers crossed for you. Has she been tested for antibodies? Blood donations is a good way to get a free antibody test...
> 
> They are letting covid+ workers back into work at the hospital if they don't have symptoms, even if they are still positive on their repeat test. Not to be a conspiracy theorist, but somebody knows something we don't.
> 
> It went from sanitizing walls and floors in the lobby in the beginning, shutting down hallways to transport covid pts, to only cleaning certain areas and transporting patients all over the place... to letting positive workers come back to work based on them saying they don't have symptoms... over the phone, without a follow up at employee health or dr note. For pete's sake, we needed a dr note to come back to work if we were out more than 2 days prior to this. Now you can be out for 10 or 14 and simply tell them you feel better and come back, even still positive. I am not a dr or nurse, so I would like someone who knows better to explain this to me LOL.



Honestly, Kim, it's more about the shortage of skilled and trained workers than anything else.

When I was a floor nurse, one of the things my favorite Nursing Supervisor used to say was,  "I can't knit nurses" when people complained about either being called to come in to work extra shifts.  Or when they complained they didn't get called to come in, it was "If they ever said 'Yes', then I'd call them, but they always say 'No' so why would I call them to come in."

Sure it's a tough decision to make, but where do you think the management is going to find nurses and RTs and other essential personnel who are capable of doing direct care with Co-Vid patients if the asymptomatic skilled workers are NOT allowed to work?  There is already a nursing shortage in this country.  This is only making it worse. And the same is true for skilled Respiratory Therapists as well.  So I get it that they are being allowed to work.  If they weren't allowed to work, then even more people would die and nobody wants that.

As far as self-reporting, that is the wisest method at this point.  Getting a note from a physician that a person is asymptomatic is a ridiculous idea, really.  What happens when you go to a doctor?  They ask you your symptoms, which is the same as self-reporting.  The doctor may examine you, have the office nurse take a temp, but these days, you can't even enter the building without a fever, so why bother seeing the doctor when asymptomatic anyway.  It would be a stupid a waste of resources to do that.  Medical personnel are considered extremely reliable at self-reporting, and for good reason.  We are so perceived because we do tend to be in matters of our own health.


----------



## linne1gi

earlene said:


> The Pfizer BioNTech vaccine?  Isn't that beyond the 5 day storage limit out of freezer?
> 
> Or is it the Moderna vaccine, which can be stored for 30 days out of freezer?
> 
> Just wondering if this makes any sense...  Well, as you know, No, it doesn't make sense even if it is the Moderna vaccine, because, hey, selfish-much?  (Not you, Cat, the girls on vacay. - They don't deserve to work in a department called 'employee health'!!!)
> 
> Personally, I prefer the Moderna vaccine if I have my druthers.
> 
> I have no qualms and have never had any leanings toward anti-vaccination;  I am getting it as soon as I have access.
> 
> Oh, BTW, I learned why my husband & his co-workers who were trained to assist with the roll-out of vaccines were never called up for duty.  The current administration dismantled every aspect of the pandemic response program put in place by the previous administration; so the current plan was a re-invention of the wheel, so to speak.  Oh, well.  Maybe someday, we can learn from our past and be better prepared in the future.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, Kim, it's more about the shortage of skilled and trained workers than anything else.
> 
> When I was a floor nurse, one of the things my favorite Nursing Supervisor used to say was,  "I can't knit nurses" when people complained about either being called to come in to work extra shifts.  Or when they complained they didn't get called to come in, it was "If they ever said 'Yes', then I'd call them, but they always say 'No' so why would I call them to come in."
> 
> Sure it's a tough decision to make, but where do you think the management is going to find nurses and RTs and other essential personnel who are capable of doing direct care with Co-Vid patients if the asymptomatic skilled workers are NOT allowed to work?  There is already a nursing shortage in this country.  This is only making it worse. And the same is true for skilled Respiratory Therapists as well.  So I get it that they are being allowed to work.  If they weren't allowed to work, then even more people would die and nobody wants that.
> 
> As far as self-reporting, that is the wisest method at this point.  Getting a note from a physician that a person is asymptomatic is a ridiculous idea, really.  What happens when you go to a doctor?  They ask you your symptoms, which is the same as self-reporting.  The doctor may examine you, have the office nurse take a temp, but these days, you can't even enter the building without a fever, so why bother seeing the doctor when asymptomatic anyway.  It would be a stupid a waste of resources to do that.  Medical personnel are considered extremely reliable at self-reporting, and for good reason.  We are so perceived because we do tend to be in matters of our own health.


I had to sign a form. Not sure whether it was a waiver or a consent form.


----------



## earlene

Well, if all travel were banned between states or whatever municipalities may be called in our various locales, where would our food come from? How would PPE's get delivered? How would we get our soap-making supplies?  How would hand sanitizer end up in the hands of those who need them?  Who would repair essential equipment when it breaks down?  There is so much done that is totally dependent on interstate & international travel, to assume that we can just close the roads to all traffic is naive.  And our Congressfolk have to travel to do the business of running our democracy, in fact, so shutting down the airports would halt that process as well.  

And how would people who have to return home get back home?  Or people that have to move to find a new place to live (for whatever reason), how will they get there if they can't travel to their new home?  Not everyone started in a place where they can actually stay indefinitely when this pandemic hit or when a new wave hit, either.

Anyway, I do agree that reasonable travel restrictions are necessary and that unnecessary travel should be avoided. But people are going to do what they are going to do and it cannot all be prevented even with the most stringent policies in place.  

So I just got back from moving my son 2100 miles across country.  He had to move.  He could not do it on his own.  I had to go back there to help him.  It was the only way to make it happen safely and to ensure he would not end up stranded somewhere along the way.  In fact, if I had not been there, he may well have ended up in a psych ward, jail, stranded in a snow storm in Colorado, or dead.  Any of those things were an absolutely real possibility given his circumstances.  And his dog would have suffered as well, and would also have ended up stranded who knows where had any of those things happened.  So I did the right thing by my son, his dog and my conscience.  I rented a vehicle and drove out to get him and we caravaned as far as over the mountain range in Colorado until his car gave out, then I rented a storage unit for some of his stuff and drove him & his dog the rest of the way here so he would have a safe place to live.  Tomorrow my husband is driving to Colorado to get his stuff from storage and bringing it back here.  I was going to do that myself, but he volunteered to take on that burden and give me a few extra days of much needed rest, for which I am extremely grateful.  He's a good man.  And my son is close-by now and I can better keep track of his welfare, even though he is an adult and I wish he could manage it all by himself.  

There are so many people in the world who cannot make it on their own without the help of others, and travel is sometimes a necessary part of providing that help.  So I am against the idea of absolute travel bans.  They make no sense unless as a society we also endorse starvation and isolation to the detriment of life.

In the course of my travels to and from my son's home, I adhered to strict CoVid precautions, more so than some state residents in all the states I drove through, both at gas stations (had to use the restrooms) and in hotels (couldn't sleep in the car in the dead of winter in any of said states).  The only places that seemed to adhere to CoVid precautions diligently were in places where it's a National Corporate policy and even then some simply chose to ignore the posted signage.  These were not travelers, but local people with local license plates on their cars; so if they get CoVid, they have only themselves to blame, not this traveler.  I rarely saw anyone with out-of-state plates get out of their cars or semis without a mask at a truck stop in any of the states where I refilled the gas tank.  And none of them walked into a C-store without a mask from those out-of-state plated vehicles.


----------



## Catscankim

linne1gi said:


> I had to sign a form. Not sure whether it was a waiver or a consent form.


Mine is called a consent form. And I found out that they are making you wait in the area to make sure you don't have a reaction to it.

My boss just texted me that she is currently waiting in line for the vaccine. I still don't understand why there is a line if they are only scheduling every 30 minutes.

@earlene I am not sure which vaccine we are being offered, but the consent does have a check off for which one was administered. I am sure WE don't get to make that decision, but I am curious as to why there are both on there as options.

edit: nurses and therapists are leaving the hospital in droves because travel agencies are offering $10k per WEEK. But you can be sent anywhere, and they are not offering insurance, but I suppose that for that kind of money you can get your own insurance. As far as I know, no agencies are offering that kind of money for rad techs, but I kind of like the security of having a full time job. Who knows how long these positions are going to last, and then you don't have your FT position to return to. And I also wonder where they are getting the money to pay them that much? CARES Act?

I just wish this would all be over...


----------



## earlene

My SIL did the traveling nurses thing for a couple of years after my brother finished his engineering degree and before he nailed down a great job back in California.  They tend to pay very high wages in those instances.  I was often tempted, but never wanted to leave the security of my job either.  And after I retired, the head hunters would call me every few months for years offering extremely high incentives.  If I wasn't adamant that I wanted to enjoy my retirement, perhaps I would have taken them up on it, but no, I preferred my freedom to do as I pleased when I pleased.  But I was never offered $10K per week.  That would have been hard to turn down.  They don't call anymore. Maybe they finally figured out I have never returned any of their calls.

High short term wages are a really tempting thing and lots of folks do it with a plan of filling their bank accounts so they can afford an early retirement.  My uncle did it when he went over to Dubai to work the oil rigs.  A decade of those kinds of wages gave him the opportunity to buy multiple houses - one for his mother, some for his kids and more than one for himself and my aunt, as well as a few rental properties AND a trucking business to run when he retired from the oil industry.

And then of course there's the whole, "If this is going to kill me, I may as well sock away a huge chunk of change while I can" kind of feeling that may play a part as well.  I'd probably feel that way; sort of build up an inheritance for the grandkids or write something into my will to start a foundation for nursing scholarships and make my granddaughter the first recipient, then she could administer the selection of candidates each year after completing her degree kind-of-thing.  How altruistic AND manipulative is that?  Controlling her from the grave.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> Mine is called a consent form. And I found out that they are making you wait in the area to make sure you don't have a reaction to it.
> 
> My boss just texted me that she is currently waiting in line for the vaccine. I still don't understand why there is a line if they are only scheduling every 30 minutes.
> 
> @earlene I am not sure which vaccine we are being offered, but the consent does have a check off for which one was administered. I am sure WE don't get to make that decision, but I am curious as to why there are both on there as options.
> 
> edit: nurses and therapists are leaving the hospital in droves because travel agencies are offering $10k per WEEK. But you can be sent anywhere, and they are not offering insurance, but I suppose that for that kind of money you can get your own insurance. As far as I know, no agencies are offering that kind of money for rad techs, but I kind of like the security of having a full time job. Who knows how long these positions are going to last, and then you don't have your FT position to return to. And I also wonder where they are getting the money to pay them that much? CARES Act?
> 
> I just wish this would all be over...


I think the Moderna vaccine because it’s easier to store. The Pfizer vaccine has to be kept at minus 100, and most places don’t have the ability to store it.


----------



## Catscankim

I actually asked around last night because I thought I might be mistaken about the 10k/wk pay. It sounded crazy to me. But I was sitting there and there was a nurse talking to an RRT and they said it again. The nurse was like "I am going to pay my truck off in a couple of weeks with this money". So its true LOL. That just seems like a crazy amt of money, and again, I would be worried that it would be short lived and not have a job in the near future.

When I lived back in Philly a bunch of years ago, I did some agency work in addition to my FT job. I liked it because it was all local and you could pick up jobs, or not pick them up if you chose. It was good money back then...$50/hr for a CT tech was great. And if I took call it was even better LOL. We got paid $200 per body part we scanned plus $50/hr that we were there. Needless to say I was never in a hurry to get out of the hospital while I was on call lol. One job I was on call for a 12 hour shift and got called in a few times. My paycheck was $1200 at the end of the week just from that one 12 hour call that I picked up.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> I actually asked around last night because I thought I might be mistaken about the 10k/wk pay. It sounded crazy to me. But I was sitting there and there was a nurse talking to an RRT and they said it again. The nurse was like "I am going to pay my truck off in a couple of weeks with this money". So its true LOL. That just seems like a crazy amt of money, and again, I would be worried that it would be short lived and not have a job in the near future.
> 
> When I lived back in Philly a bunch of years ago, I did some agency work in addition to my FT job. I liked it because it was all local and you could pick up jobs, or not pick them up if you chose. It was good money back then...$50/hr for a CT tech was great. And if I took call it was even better LOL. We got paid $200 per body part we scanned plus $50/hr that we were there. Needless to say I was never in a hurry to get out of the hospital while I was on call lol. One job I was on call for a 12 hour shift and got called in a few times. My paycheck was $1200 at the end of the week just from that one 12 hour call that I picked up.


Well that beats the $5000 sign on bonus I got (one time) back in 1989!


----------



## Catscankim

linne1gi said:


> Well that beats the $5000 sign on bonus I got (one time) back in 1989!


I got a sign on bonus at Martin for $4000 to move down from Philly in 2007, which seemed great at the time, until the taxes took almost half of it after it was added to my regular paycheck.

edit: and not realizing it, it was contingent on certain parts of the hiring process. So even though I had a letter off offer and already MOVED, I still had to do the background check, drug and health screening etc. I almost didn't pass the health screen because of a broken finger that I got just before I moved because of the lifting/moving test. I was dying LOL, but I knew now that it had to be done to pass. Trying to hide a broken finger while I got this guy telling me to keep picking up a 50lb weight to keep putting it from the table to the floor and back up was excruciating.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> I got a sign on bonus at Martin for $4000 to move down from Philly in 2007, which seemed great at the time, until the taxes took almost half of it after it was added to my regular paycheck.
> 
> edit: and not realizing it, it was contingent on certain parts of the hiring process. So even though I had a letter off offer and already MOVED, I still had to do the background check, drug and health screening etc. I almost didn't pass the health screen because of a broken finger that I got just before I moved because of the lifting/moving test. I was dying LOL, but I knew now that it had to be done to pass. Trying to hide a broken finger while I got this guy telling me to keep picking up a 50lb weight to keep putting it from the table to the floor and back up was excruciating.


You had to demonstrate picking up 50#? Wow. I have never had to do that.


----------



## earlene

When I worked at the post office at age 18 (a ton of years ago), we had to be able to lift 50 pounds.  But no one ever made me demonstrate doing so.  But it would have been fine; I was pretty strong in my youth and regularly hefted 50-pound bags of dog food onto my shoulders (2 large dogs at home back then.)  

Use of the thumb is so inherent in almost everything we do; we don't realize how much we use it until a thumb joint is compromised. It's horrible! Just using the lavatory becomes a major ordeal. I can't imagine how awful it was to have to try and hide it during a mandatory weight lifting test. You'd think they wanted a body builder!


----------



## linne1gi

earlene said:


> When I worked at the post office at age 18 (a ton of years ago), we had to be able to lift 50 pounds.  But no one ever made me demonstrate doing so.  But it would have been fine; I was pretty strong in my youth and regularly hefted 50-pound bags of dog food onto my shoulders (2 large dogs at home back then.)
> 
> Use of the thumb is so inherent in almost everything we do; we don't realize how much we use it until a thumb joint is compromised. It's horrible! Just using the lavatory becomes a major ordeal. I can't imagine how awful it was to have to try and hide it during a mandatory weight lifting test. You'd think they wanted a body builder!


Exactly. I’ve been a nurse for a long time. Yes, it’s part of the job requirement, but I have never been asked to demonstrate.


----------



## Catscankim

linne1gi said:


> You had to demonstrate picking up 50#? Wow. I have never had to do that.


You should have seen me at Jupiter LOL. The woman had a whole bunch of weights on a shelf and I had to keep picking them up and putting them back and picking them up and grab the next weight up....without moving my place. It was ridiculous! And it was timed. I mean, I pick up and move people all day long for a living. It was the repititions I guess LOL. I was TIRED. If my abs didn't hurt so much, I would have picked up one of the weights and threw it in her direction. I felt like asking this woman (who looked like she should have retired years ago), if she would like to give it a shot. This isn't a position for ninja warrior for pete's sake. And this was just last year!! It makes me think that the next time I pick up another job I am going to have to ask how rigorous the Occupational Health test is LOL.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> You should have seen me at Jupiter LOL. The woman had a whole bunch of weights on a shelf and I had to keep picking them up and putting them back and picking them up and grab the next weight up....without moving my place. It was ridiculous! And it was timed. I mean, I pick up and move people all day long for a living. It was the repititions I guess LOL. I was TIRED. If my abs didn't hurt so much, I would have picked up one of the weights and threw it in her direction. I felt like asking this woman (who looked like she should have retired years ago), if she would like to give it a shot. This isn't a position for ninja warrior for pete's sake. And this was just last year!! It makes me think that the next time I pick up another job I am going to have to ask how rigorous the Occupational Health test is LOL.


I’m shocked.



linne1gi said:


> I’m shocked.


I doubt I could do it.


----------



## Catscankim

I guess cause the job descriptions say that you need to be able to lift 50lbs? Martins wouldn't have been that hard except that I had that broken finger. But jupiter was crazy. Next I knew that nut was putting the tent on my head for the tb mask test. I'm like "you need to give me a minute" lol

And let me correct/clarify. Jup was doing reps with lighter weights. 5-10 lbs


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> I guess cause the job descriptions say that you need to be able to lift 50lbs? Martins wouldn't have been that hard except that I had that broken finger. But jupiter was crazy. Next I knew that nut was putting the tent on my head for the tb mask test. I'm like "you need to give me a minute" lol
> 
> And let me correct/clarify. Jup was doing reps with lighter weights. 5-10 lbs


Same thing in my job description - but I have never had to actually do it.  And frankly at my age, it would be near impossible.  However, we pick up, turn and otherwise position patients every day - but - we always have help.  Maybe that's the difference?  You are probably alone most of the time.


----------



## jcandleattic

The variant has been found in the US as of yesterday, and of course the first case was found in Colorado. 
*sigh*


----------



## linne1gi

earlene said:


> Well, if all travel were banned between states or whatever municipalities may be called in our various locales, where would our food come from? How would PPE's get delivered? How would we get our soap-making supplies?  How would hand sanitizer end up in the hands of those who need them?  Who would repair essential equipment when it breaks down?  There is so much done that is totally dependent on interstate & international travel, to assume that we can just close the roads to all traffic is naive.  And our Congressfolk have to travel to do the business of running our democracy, in fact, so shutting down the airports would halt that process as well.
> 
> And how would people who have to return home get back home?  Or people that have to move to find a new place to live (for whatever reason), how will they get there if they can't travel to their new home?  Not everyone started in a place where they can actually stay indefinitely when this pandemic hit or when a new wave hit, either.
> 
> Anyway, I do agree that reasonable travel restrictions are necessary and that unnecessary travel should be avoided. But people are going to do what they are going to do and it cannot all be prevented even with the most stringent policies in place.
> 
> So I just got back from moving my son 2100 miles across country.  He had to move.  He could not do it on his own.  I had to go back there to help him.  It was the only way to make it happen safely and to ensure he would not end up stranded somewhere along the way.  In fact, if I had not been there, he may well have ended up in a psych ward, jail, stranded in a snow storm in Colorado, or dead.  Any of those things were an absolutely real possibility given his circumstances.  And his dog would have suffered as well, and would also have ended up stranded who knows where had any of those things happened.  So I did the right thing by my son, his dog and my conscience.  I rented a vehicle and drove out to get him and we caravaned as far as over the mountain range in Colorado until his car gave out, then I rented a storage unit for some of his stuff and drove him & his dog the rest of the way here so he would have a safe place to live.  Tomorrow my husband is driving to Colorado to get his stuff from storage and bringing it back here.  I was going to do that myself, but he volunteered to take on that burden and give me a few extra days of much needed rest, for which I am extremely grateful.  He's a good man.  And my son is close-by now and I can better keep track of his welfare, even though he is an adult and I wish he could manage it all by himself.
> 
> There are so many people in the world who cannot make it on their own without the help of others, and travel is sometimes a necessary part of providing that help.  So I am against the idea of absolute travel bans.  They make no sense unless as a society we also endorse starvation and isolation to the detriment of life.
> 
> In the course of my travels to and from my son's home, I adhered to strict CoVid precautions, more so than some state residents in all the states I drove through, both at gas stations (had to use the restrooms) and in hotels (couldn't sleep in the car in the dead of winter in any of said states).  The only places that seemed to adhere to CoVid precautions diligently were in places where it's a National Corporate policy and even then some simply chose to ignore the posted signage.  These were not travelers, but local people with local license plates on their cars; so if they get CoVid, they have only themselves to blame, not this traveler.  I rarely saw anyone with out-of-state plates get out of their cars or semis without a mask at a truck stop in any of the states where I refilled the gas tank.  And none of them walked into a C-store without a mask from those out-of-state plated vehicles.


I helped my daughter move in October.  She only moved an hour north - but her roommate moved out of their apartment and left her stranded with the rent for 2 people. She was a piece of work - left more than half of her belongings - cleaned up nothing - and then called my daughter to find out when she would get her share of the security deposit!  Anyway, we observed strict protocol - wearing masks diligently, even outdoors, while moving.  I don't think she could have done it alone - she left me at the first apartment to monitor the moving people, while she drove on to the next apartment to get the key - it worked out pretty well.  Now, she's in her own place, with no one to give her a hard time.


----------



## earlene

It's what mothers do, right?  We love our kids; we help them when they need us if we are able; we worry when they are in trouble; we are happy when they are safe and in better circumstances.  And hopefully, we demonstrate & model behavior we strive to instill in them.  Kudos to us!  

I am happy for your daughter and also that you were a able to provide her with the help she needed.


linne1gi said:


> I helped my daughter move in October.  She only moved an hour north - but her roommate moved out of their apartment and left her stranded with the rent for 2 people. She was a piece of work - left more than half of her belongings - cleaned up nothing - and then called my daughter to find out when she would get her share of the security deposit!  Anyway, we observed strict protocol - wearing masks diligently, even outdoors, while moving.  I don't think she could have done it alone - she left me at the first apartment to monitor the moving people, while she drove on to the next apartment to get the key - it worked out pretty well.  Now, she's in her own place, with no one to give her a hard time.


----------



## Susie

My daughter arrived at my house in March, hours before we locked down. We had to go back to her college town and actually move her belongings when things loosened up a bit in May. We followed all precautions and none of us got sick. It is possible to travel and even stay in a hotel safely. You just have to keep following the rules.


----------



## Iseleigh

This video explains a lot of what is going on right now. I'd suggest everyone watch it before it gets taken down.


----------



## paradisi

Iseleigh said:


> This video explains a lot of what is going on right now. I'd suggest everyone watch it before it gets taken down.




This is .. nonsense.


----------



## beckster51

paradisi said:


> This is .. nonsense.


Oh my, this is the most involved  conspiracy theory I have ever heard!  Everybody who is leaning toward conspiracy theories needs to educate themselves about the origin or conspiracy theories.  For example, who on earth believes that wealthy people all over the earth could agree to do this, plan this, and execute it without it ever leaking out.  If you can name me a situation where this large a group of people all over the world get together, agree to a solution, plan it, execute it and never mention to anyone I would like to hear it.  People can't agree on anything, even within their own families.  This really is nonsense, and if it is taken down it is for good reason.  She talks about "them" instituting fear to meet some goal, so what is her goal in instituting fear?  Because that is what she id doing.


----------



## lucycat

No real reason this video is on this forum


----------



## SPowers

except it relates to Covid

it sounds like conspiracy but this woman has incredible credentials... she's not a crackpot.


----------



## paradisi

Believing in and promoting the idea of a cabal instituting an agenda of 'Transhuman Depopulation of the planet ' and thus slavery is the epitome of crackpottery.

And has nothing to do with Covid or science.


----------



## beckster51

SPowers said:


> except it relates to Covid
> 
> it sounds like conspiracy but this woman has incredible credentials... she's not a crackpot.


A lot of people with credentials are crackpots.  Just think about it.  I could name a few in power at present, and so could you.  Being educated doesn't mean you are always right.


----------



## Catscankim

I am not commenting on that video.

What people need to do if they have covid, is to NOT come to the hospital NOT sick! We get so many that come in JUST because they tested positive. This is the most irresponsible thing. stay home if you know you are covid. There is nothing to do if you aren't sick.

Maybe irresponsible is a little strong, uneducated might be the correct word. You do not need medical attention just because you tested positive if you have no symptoms.There is nothing to do for you.

I walked in through the front door coming back from smoking. There's this woman "I just tested positive". She was gently escorted out, and not without an argument from her that she belongs there because she has covid.

there are people standing around. People with kids, pregnant women, etc....all "socially distanced" waiting to check in for regular ER problems. You walk in and announce that you have covid. Nice. Go home if you are not sick. Then here comes poor Kim walking in from the only break she got in 12 hours.

Just that one action potentially exposed about ten people, then had to shut down the lobby to be cleaned...on and on.

I understand people are scared. Point is....do not just walk into a lobby infected. At least call first and ask what you should do...


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Catscankim said:


> I am not commenting on that video.
> I understand people are scared. Point is....do not just walk into a lobby infected. At least call first and ask what you should do...


Your point is well taken. Thank you!!!
I am not commenting on that video either.
People are scared. I don't know about elsewhere, but I belong to Kaiser (HMO) and to make a call first results in a recorded message telling you to go to the ER. Sheesh!

Back in mid-May to mid-June I experienced 12 of the COVID symptoms listed on the KP.org webpage. There was a number available to talk to a physician. Luckily, I got an ER doc. The discussion was short and to the  point. When I told him my symptoms, he asked: 

_"Are you short of breath? Do you have trouble breathing?". _
No.
_"Then stay home. Isolate. Hydrate. Rest. Treat it like a cold."_
Okay. But should I get tested?
_"You can if you want to. I can set an appointment up for you."_
What if I test positive?
_"Unless you have trouble breathing, stay home." _
I'll do that but what if I have trouble breathing?
_"Then contact your PCP first before going to the ER."_
What is my prognosis if I go to the ER?
_"We have no cure for COVID 19."_

The point I'm making is that we hear _"Wash your hands. Wear a mask. Practice social distancing"_ ad nauseam daily! But no one is telling the general population what to do if you test positive! I even searched the KP.org website before placing the call to the doctor. Nothing, nada, zero, zip that told me what to do. 

To my mind at least, and in support of your statement *@Catscankim *it seems to me that it would be prudent if the PSAs also informed those who test positive to isolate, hydrate, rest, treat if like a cold. How hard is it to figure that out?


----------



## Zany_in_CO

For what it's worth, I heard this statistic on the radio this morning:
Deaths in the USA due to COVID-19 ~ 20 million
Deaths in the USA due to the Flu ~ 50 million (and that's with easy access to the vaccine!)

Something to think about, especially since the damage to our economy due to the Lock Down may be irreparable. So, buckle up, peeps. 2021 is going to be a long and bumpy road.


----------



## sunnysuds

Dahila said:


> well on coming Monday I leave for Europe for few weeks , can not cancel it,  With my COPD any cold or flue may end as pneumonia,  I keep my fingers crossed that no one will be sneezing in plane.   What we do ,  when the sickness come.  Whatever it is is (viruses) it stats in the nose,  then rinsing sinuses is pretty useful tool, hand washing, and hand washing I hope I will have a nice time in Poland (I had not visit for 15 years) and come back healthy


I pray for an uneventful trip.


----------



## lshone

Zany_in_CO said:


> For what it's worth, I heard this statistic on the radio this morning:
> Deaths in the USA due to COVID-19 ~ 20 million
> Deaths in the USA due to the Flu ~ 50 million (and that's with easy access to the vaccine!)



As of today, in the U.S. there are 20 million positive cases of Covid, 12 million recovered and 356,000 deaths caused by Covid. 

Mortality rate = 2.85%, this means that 1 in 35 that contract covid will perish. Currently there are 8,114,362 active cases. At a 2.85% mortality rate this means that at least another 220,000 people will perish even if there are no new cases. 

On a per capita basis there are 2442 active cases of Covid per 100,000 (2.4%). This is equates to 1 in 41 people. Think of it this way if you are in a room with 41 people one person will be infected.

There were approx. 22,000 deaths due to flu in 2019-2020.


----------



## beckster51

Zany_in_CO said:


> For what it's worth, I heard this statistic on the radio this morning:
> Deaths in the USA due to COVID-19 ~ 20 million
> Deaths in the USA due to the Flu ~ 50 million (and that's with easy access to the vaccine!)
> 
> Something to think about, especially since the damage to our economy due to the Lock Down may be irreparable. So, buckle up, peeps. 2021 is going to be a long and bumpy road.


In what time frame?  Without a time frame, Zany, this makes no sense.


----------



## redhead1226

paradisi said:


> This is .. nonsense.


Im not sure why this is allowed here! This brings nothing good here to this forum! Im surprised its here.


----------



## beckster51

redhead1226 said:


> Im not sure why this is allowed here! This brings nothing good here to this forum! Im surprised its here.


I agree, although I find myself unable to ignore it when it is pushing disinformation on people.  Perhaps the forum should ban conspiracy theories.  That's what FB is for.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

lshone said:


> As of today, in the U.S. there are 20 million positive cases of Covid, 12 million recovered and 356,000 deaths caused by Covid.
> 
> There were approx. 22,000 deaths due to flu in 2019-2020.


I stand corrected. Thank you, *@Ishone*.  
That will teach me not to post stuff I heard on the radio at sun-up before I even had my coffee!


----------



## KimW

lshone said:


> As of today, in the U.S. there are 20 million positive cases of Covid, 12 million recovered and 356,000 deaths caused by Covid.


Thank you for all these stats.  Do you have sources so I can share, please?  I've looked at CDC and I've had a hard time selecting the data so that I can see the numbers as you've summarized them.


----------



## lshone

KimW said:


> Thank you for all these stats.  Do you have sources so I can share, please?  I've looked at CDC and I've had a hard time selecting the data so that I can see the numbers as you've summarized them.


@KimW These are the sites I rely on for Covid info. The Canada site breaks down the rates by province but does has a global section (link at the top) that has stats by country. the US site has a breakdown by state.








						Coronavirus (COVID-19) tracker, latest cases in Canada
					

Coronavirus updates: Areas in Canada with cases of the latest novel coronavirus (COVID-19 or 2019-nCoV)




					www.covid-19canada.com
				







__





						Coronavirus (COVID-19) tracker, latest cases in US
					

Coronavirus updates: Areas in the United States with cases of the latest novel coronavirus (COVID-19 or 2019-nCoV)




					www.covid-19us.live


----------



## Misschief

This is the one we keep watching... from Johns Hopkins University.





						ArcGIS Dashboards
					

ArcGIS Dashboards




					www.arcgis.com
				




We also watch our local one for British Columbia.


----------



## cmzaha

earlene said:


> Well, if all travel were banned between states or whatever municipalities may be called in our various locales, where would our food come from? How would PPE's get delivered? How would we get our soap-making supplies?  How would hand sanitizer end up in the hands of those who need them?  Who would repair essential equipment when it breaks down?  There is so much done that is totally dependent on interstate & international travel, to assume that we can just close the roads to all traffic is naive.  And our Congressfolk have to travel to do the business of running our democracy, in fact, so shutting down the airports would halt that process as well.
> 
> And how would people who have to return home get back home?  Or people that have to move to find a new place to live (for whatever reason), how will they get there if they can't travel to their new home?  Not everyone started in a place where they can actually stay indefinitely when this pandemic hit or when a new wave hit, either.
> 
> Anyway, I do agree that reasonable travel restrictions are necessary and that unnecessary travel should be avoided. But people are going to do what they are going to do and it cannot all be prevented even with the most stringent policies in place.
> 
> So I just got back from moving my son 2100 miles across country.  He had to move.  He could not do it on his own.  I had to go back there to help him.  It was the only way to make it happen safely and to ensure he would not end up stranded somewhere along the way.  In fact, if I had not been there, he may well have ended up in a psych ward, jail, stranded in a snow storm in Colorado, or dead.  Any of those things were an absolutely real possibility given his circumstances.  And his dog would have suffered as well, and would also have ended up stranded who knows where had any of those things happened.  So I did the right thing by my son, his dog and my conscience.  I rented a vehicle and drove out to get him and we caravaned as far as over the mountain range in Colorado until his car gave out, then I rented a storage unit for some of his stuff and drove him & his dog the rest of the way here so he would have a safe place to live.  Tomorrow my husband is driving to Colorado to get his stuff from storage and bringing it back here.  I was going to do that myself, but he volunteered to take on that burden and give me a few extra days of much needed rest, for which I am extremely grateful.  He's a good man.  And my son is close-by now and I can better keep track of his welfare, even though he is an adult and I wish he could manage it all by himself.
> 
> There are so many people in the world who cannot make it on their own without the help of others, and travel is sometimes a necessary part of providing that help.  So I am against the idea of absolute travel bans.  They make no sense unless as a society we also endorse starvation and isolation to the detriment of life.
> 
> In the course of my travels to and from my son's home, I adhered to strict CoVid precautions, more so than some state residents in all the states I drove through, both at gas stations (had to use the restrooms) and in hotels (couldn't sleep in the car in the dead of winter in any of said states).  The only places that seemed to adhere to CoVid precautions diligently were in places where it's a National Corporate policy and even then some simply chose to ignore the posted signage.  These were not travelers, but local people with local license plates on their cars; so if they get CoVid, they have only themselves to blame, not this traveler.  I rarely saw anyone with out-of-state plates get out of their cars or semis without a mask at a truck stop in any of the states where I refilled the gas tank.  And none of them walked into a C-store without a mask from those out-of-state plated vehicles.


I am glad you were able to get your son moved. You are very correct some of us do have family/kids that need help making it on their own and possibly always will so we do what we have to do. Hopefully, your son adjusts well. 

The last time we were in NV at my daughter's you are very correct the folks we saw Not wearing masks were locals, not travelers. .


----------



## Eclypse

I agree with everyone who is taking this Pandemic very seriously, and I am praying for all the people who have been affected by it too (which is EVERYONE). My lifestyle didn't change much because I have been living how others are now being forced to. I'm not a very social person and I have had Federal Service Dogs for more than 20yrs who provided me with 2'-3' of social distancing, alerted me to people who are ill, allowed me to have an excuse (pre-pandemic) to maintain vigilant cleanliness. I've been labeled so many times as germaphobic, ocd, etc.. just for doing what we all are doing now. So when Covid-19 hit the World, I purchased soap supplies (olive oil, coconut oil, lye, almond oil, oats, honey, and lg bags of powdered milk) and a bidet. I switched my dogs over to a raw food diet, and contacted every hunter I know asking them to save their animal fats in return for supplying them with soap (taxidermists have a wonderful verity of animal fats). I only shop every 2 months wearing a mask and nitrile gloves. I buy everclear an use as spray sanitizer because I'm worried that fools will start drinking sanitizer and I've been known to lose stuff. My Federal Service Dogs wear boots in public so I can disenfect their paws.
My lifestyle was/is foriegn to most of social people and


----------



## Eclypse

Eclypse said:


> I agree with everyone who is taking this Pandemic very seriously, and I am praying for all the people who have been affected by it too (which is EVERYONE). My lifestyle didn't change much because I have been living how others are now being forced to. I'm not a very social person and I have had Federal Service Dogs for more than 20yrs who provided me with 2'-3' of social distancing, alerted me to people who are ill, allowed me to have an excuse (pre-pandemic) to maintain vigilant cleanliness. I've been labeled so many times as germaphobic, ocd, etc.. just for doing what we all are doing now. So when Covid-19 hit the World, I purchased soap supplies (olive oil, coconut oil, lye, almond oil, oats, honey, and lg bags of powdered milk) and a bidet. I switched my dogs over to a raw food diet, and contacted every hunter I know asking them to save their animal fats in return for supplying them with soap (taxidermists have a wonderful verity of animal fats). I only shop every 2 months wearing a mask and nitrile gloves. I buy everclear an use as spray sanitizer because I'm worried that fools will start drinking sanitizer and I've been known to lose stuff. My Federal Service Dogs wear boots in public so I can disenfect their paws.
> My lifestyle was/is foriegn to most of social people and theirs is to mine. I know that being forced to change habits is so hard and I truly hope everyone can find some sense of normalcy soon.
> Here is a pic of the 'Faith' soaps I donate to charities and food banks.
> We may all be forced into limited social contact, just remember that we're not by any means alone in this situation.


----------



## Jeboz

Preliminary In-Season 2021-2022 Flu Burden Estimates
					

CDC's weekly cumulative in-season estimates of flu cases, medical visits, hospitalizations and deaths in the United States.




					www.cdc.gov
				



this is one CDC link to seasonal flu numbers this past season.


----------



## melinda48

Zany_in_CO said:


> For what it's worth, I heard this statistic on the radio this morning:
> Deaths in the USA due to COVID-19 ~ 20 million
> Deaths in the USA due to the Flu ~ 50 million (and that's with easy access to the vaccine!)
> 
> Something to think about, especially since the damage to our economy due to the Lock Down may be irreparable. So, buckle up, peeps. 2021 is going to be a long and bumpy road.


It is not going to be pretty.


----------



## melinda48

Zany_in_CO said:


> I stand corrected. Thank you, *@Ishone*.
> That will teach me not to post stuff I heard on the radio at sun-up before I even had my coffee!


That is absolutely incorrect. Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

melinda48 said:


> That is absolutely incorrect. Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear.


Wise words. Thank you, Ben Franklin.


----------



## Catscankim

Got my vaccine today. I was fine, then all of a sudden I felt like I had the flu a few hours later...chills and body aches, and super tired. Almost didn't make it through work. Motrin helped. One of the nurses said that is happening with everybody. He said its gone within 24 hours. I get that with the flu shot too, but it doesn't usually happen till the next day.


----------



## TashaBird

Catscankim said:


> Got my vaccine today. I was fine, then all of a sudden I felt like I had the flu a few hours later...chills and body aches, and super tired. Almost didn't make it through work. Motrin helped. One of the nurses said that is happening with everybody. He said its gone within 24 hours. I get that with the flu shot too, but it doesn't usually happen till the next day.


I’m so glad you got it! I can’t wait. I hope I get the Dolly Parton vaccine. (That’s what I’m calling the Moderna one, because she spent a million funding it.)


----------



## Catscankim

TashaBird said:


> I’m so glad you got it! I can’t wait. I hope I get the Dolly Parton vaccine. (That’s what I’m calling the Moderna one, because she spent a million funding it.)


I didn't know that LOL, but that's the one I got. I kept asking everybody that got one before me which vaccine they were giving, and nobody knew lol. Seriously, with all the press, you do not know which one you got?? So I asked when I got up there. 

It was more organized than I thought. But I had to show my driver's license 3 times to 3 different people including a security guard to get in, and also get my hospital ID zapped. And this was in a small conference room, so there was no chance of people sneaking in or swapping out, so I don't know what that was all about. One of the ID takers had a program/app on her computer that she had to fill in some information and barcode and zap your DL I think time of day and such. She didn't seem to need to put much effort into it. Also had to wait around for 20 minutes to make sure you didn't have a reaction. There was a pharmacist there keeping track of time on your watch time. I don't think it had anything to do with her being a pharmacist other than somebody with a degree willing to keep the time LOL.

It was all super-official looking and time-consuming. I half expected some MIB guys to show up LOL.


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> I didn't know that LOL, but that's the one I got. I kept asking everybody that got one before me which vaccine they were giving, and nobody knew lol. Seriously, with all the press, you do not know which one you got?? So I asked when I got up there.
> 
> It was more organized than I thought. But I had to show my driver's license 3 times to 3 different people including a security guard to get in, and also get my hospital ID zapped. And this was in a small conference room, so there was no chance of people sneaking in or swapping out, so I don't know what that was all about. One of the ID takers had a program/app on her computer that she had to fill in some information and barcode and zap your DL I think time of day and such. She didn't seem to need to put much effort into it. Also had to wait around for 20 minutes to make sure you didn't have a reaction. There was a pharmacist there keeping track of time on your watch time. I don't think it had anything to do with her being a pharmacist other than somebody with a degree willing to keep the time LOL.
> 
> It was all super-official looking and time-consuming. I half expected some MIB guys to show up LOL.


I'm so glad you got it and that your side effects were minimal, Kim.  I always get a fever and myalgias with every vaccine I get, so I usually take some Tylenol or ibuprofen right after I get the shot, and it seems to decrease the severity and duration of those things.  I hope you feel fit as a fiddle today!


----------



## dibbles

I'm glad you got your shot! They might have been collecting your info for tracing purposes in giving the second dose.


----------



## TashaBird

Catscankim said:


> I didn't know that LOL, but that's the one I got. I kept asking everybody that got one before me which vaccine they were giving, and nobody knew lol. Seriously, with all the press, you do not know which one you got?? So I asked when I got up there.
> 
> It was more organized than I thought. But I had to show my driver's license 3 times to 3 different people including a security guard to get in, and also get my hospital ID zapped. And this was in a small conference room, so there was no chance of people sneaking in or swapping out, so I don't know what that was all about. One of the ID takers had a program/app on her computer that she had to fill in some information and barcode and zap your DL I think time of day and such. She didn't seem to need to put much effort into it. Also had to wait around for 20 minutes to make sure you didn't have a reaction. There was a pharmacist there keeping track of time on your watch time. I don't think it had anything to do with her being a pharmacist other than somebody with a degree willing to keep the time LOL.
> 
> It was all super-official looking and time-consuming. I half expected some MIB guys to show up LOL.


The security was probably because some crazy people have sabatoged vaccine!


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Catscankim said:


> It was more organized than I thought. But I had to show my driver's license 3 times to 3 different people including a security guard to get in, and also get my hospital ID zapped.


Thanks for sharing, Kim. 

You didn't mention if you had your temp taken? I only ask because when I went to the Kaiser clinic the other day to have labs done, you can't get in the door without having your temp taken. The gal who took mine got a reading of 91.6! She didn't think anything of it, but I told her the last time I was there two people took my temp because the first one was way off. So she switched thermometers and got a reading of 97.6 which is normal for me. 

My concern is that patients with temps over 100 would get a below normal reading with what is obviously a faulty thermometer that is still in use. Gah. I use to feel safe going into that facility. Now, not so much!


----------



## Catscankim

Zany_in_CO said:


> Thanks for sharing, Kim.
> 
> You didn't mention if you had your temp taken? I only ask because when I went to the Kaiser clinic the other day to have labs done, you can't get in the door without having your temp taken. The gal who took mine got a reading of 91.6! She didn't think anything of it, but I told her the last time I was there two people took my temp because the first one was way off. So she switched thermometers and got a reading of 97.6 which is normal for me.
> 
> My concern is that patients with temps over 100 would get a below normal reading with what is obviously a faulty thermometer that is still in use. Gah. I use to feel safe going into that facility. Now, not so much!


We didn't get screened for anything but allergy history. They didn't turn you away if you have allergies, even if severe...they just made you hang out for a few extra minutes.

My arm REALLY hurts lol. I know there is nothing wrong because everybody is complaining of it. But OOWWW.


----------



## Adobehead

I got it on October 30.  It was "mild".  For 2 days I had strong symptoms, heart racing (resting was 100 bpm) and chills on day 1 and heart racing plus head and joint pain on day 2.  I slept the whole time (48 hours!) Waking to take vitamin C and go to the bathroom. 

Day 3 I felt great.  Tested positive.

Day 4, back down again.  Very bad negative mental attitude which lasted several weeks.  Fell down once. Lost my sense of smell for 4 weeks. I dismissed several of my friends and told them they don't need to be my friend any more.  (what the hell?) I felt that it would be like this the rest of my life and I might as well blow my brains out right now.  Of course, I did not.  But a really bad mental attitude. 

The fatigue continued in an up and down manner for about 8 weeks when my doctor gave me a series of vitamin B shots.  I felt energetic and positive again after the first shot. 

The lethargy and general "laying around" for such a long period has had other effects, like my back giving me problems, muscles becoming weaker.  others have used the word "weird" and that is what I noticed.  Many feelings I have never felt before.  I have known this body for 73 years and never felt a lot of this stuff. 

I am lucky and grateful to have had a mild one.  I have been taking vitamin C twice a day for months in preparation and of course have no way of knowing if it was helpful.  But I am going to keep taking it and the other vitamins my doctor has prepared for his patients. 

May you all stay well!


----------



## SPowers

Glad you recovered!  I'm 75 so always concerned about getting it when having to go out for necesseties.  I've been taking vitamins a,b,c,d,k plus other supplements for a few years so hopefull that will help if needed but think I might up the vit c just in case.  
I sure get the 'laying around' bit.. being stuck in, soaping is as active as it gets but it still isn't really enough and I'm not disciplined enough to exercise on my own.  The past 2 days I've not been well but no fever so I think it's just a general malaise but definitely keeping an eye on it.
Thanks for sharing your experience.


----------



## Eclypse

Anyone else have a "feeling"???


----------



## Eclypse

Adobehead said:


> I got it on October 30.  It was "mild".  For 2 days I had strong symptoms, heart racing (resting was 100 bpm) and chills on day 1 and heart racing plus head and joint pain on day 2.  I slept the whole time (48 hours!) Waking to take vitamin C and go to the bathroom.
> 
> Day 3 I felt great.  Tested positive.
> 
> Day 4, back down again.  Very bad negative mental attitude which lasted several weeks.  Fell down once. Lost my sense of smell for 4 weeks. I dismissed several of my friends and told them they don't need to be my friend any more.  (what the hell?) I felt that it would be like this the rest of my life and I might as well blow my brains out right now.  Of course, I did not.  But a really bad mental attitude.
> 
> The fatigue continued in an up and down manner for about 8 weeks when my doctor gave me a series of vitamin B shots.  I felt energetic and positive again after the first shot.
> 
> The lethargy and general "laying around" for such a long period has had other effects, like my back giving me problems, muscles becoming weaker.  others have used the word "weird" and that is what I noticed.  Many feelings I have never felt before.  I have known this body for 73 years and never felt a lot of this stuff.
> 
> I am lucky and grateful to have had a mild one.  I have been taking vitamin C twice a day for months in preparation and of course have no way of knowing if it was helpful.  But I am going to keep taking it and the other vitamins my doctor has prepared for his patients.
> 
> May you all stay well!


Thank you for sharing the humour!!! I've read what you've been through and are going through.  My friend is going through same stuff as you. His acronym is 'FISH' F*** IT SH** HAPPENS ( He's an avid Great Lakes fisherman). I'm alone in a forest with 2 dogs and some banteman hens. Oh, yeah, a cat too, 'technically' in her mind EVERYTHING IS HER'S. Me, the dogs the birds, the house, the land, the neighbors, the World, etc... LOL 
Hang in there.


----------



## violets2217

So question... I know 2 vaccines are available and one is supposed to be kept at -zillion degrees below zero or something like that! But my question is ... How long does it need to thaw, because my first Christmas turkey this year took forever to thaw and it was just in the deep freezer! I need to read up on that...I'm now very curious! I'm glad to see everyone is able to get the vaccine.


----------



## Basil

Catscankim said:


> Got my vaccine today. I was fine, then all of a sudden I felt like I had the flu a few hours later...chills and body aches, and super tired. Almost didn't make it through work. Motrin helped. One of the nurses said that is happening with everybody. He said its gone within 24 hours. I get that with the flu shot too, but it doesn't usually happen till the next day.


I’ve heard the same from family members. 3 daughters and one son in law. All healthcare providers. Better the next day. Moderna  seems to have a few more side effects I’ve heard, but both still do. I get mine next week. I was told by my son in law ( ER doctor) that those who react that way have a good immune system . Hang in there!


----------



## AliOop

This video has a great summary of how boost your immune system, and what to do if your COVID symptoms aren't severe enough to warrant hospitalization. The medical professionals in my circle of family and friends all speak highly of this YT channel due to the strong science combined with excellent presentation that makes complicated concepts understandable for the general public.


----------



## GemstonePony

Roommate's covid test is positive, both her parents have symptoms, and my roommate now has symptoms. If I remain asymptomatic, I'll get a test in a few days. Meanwhile, since I soap/craft at my parents, that means I'll be not doing that for a while. And we have a 5 month old kitten (with claws) that can't be contained by itself for extended periods of time due to it's destructive capabilities. So, crafting at home in a limited capacity isn't a good option either.


----------



## KimW

GemstonePony said:


> Roommate's covid test is positive, both her parents have symptoms, and my roommate now has symptoms. If I remain asymptomatic, I'll get a test in a few days. Meanwhile, since I soap/craft at my parents, that means I'll be not doing that for a while. And we have a 5 month old kitten (with claws) that can't be contained by itself for extended periods of time due to it's destructive capabilities. So, crafting at home in a limited capacity isn't a good option either.


Oh no!  I am so sorry!  Will keep you and roomy and roomies parents in my prayers.  I hope you stay asymptomatic!


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## Eclypse

How awful. All of You are in my prayers. Hang in there


----------



## The Park Bench

GemstonePony said:


> Roommate's covid test is positive, both her parents have symptoms, and my roommate now has symptoms. If I remain asymptomatic, I'll get a test in a few days. Meanwhile, since I soap/craft at my parents, that means I'll be not doing that for a while. And we have a 5 month old kitten (with claws) that can't be contained by itself for extended periods of time due to it's destructive capabilities. So, crafting at home in a limited capacity isn't a good option either.


A second of our sons, Kagen, tested positive today.  His younger brother lives at home with us but spent last weekend with Kagen .... Now I'm getting nervous.  I have rheumatoid arthritis and don't need any additional pain!


----------



## soapysarah

I suggest researching vitamin D (not a vitamin, a hormone) and its ability to reduce severity on COVID-19 and reduce the possibility of contracting coronavirus.  Best wishes.


----------



## AliOop

The Park Bench said:


> A second of our sons, Kagen, tested positive today.  His younger brother lives at home with us but spent last weekend with Kagen .... Now I'm getting nervous.  I have rheumatoid arthritis and don't need any additional pain!


I second what @soapysarah said and recommend watching the video I posted above. The docs have a lot of great science-based recommendations for boosting your immune system to hopefully avoid or at least minimize any C19 infections. Praying for you to stay well!


----------



## rdc1978

The Park Bench said:


> A second of our sons, Kagen, tested positive today.  His younger brother lives at home with us but spent last weekend with Kagen .... Now I'm getting nervous.  I have rheumatoid arthritis and don't need any additional pain!



I'm so sorry to hear that.  Can Kagen stay quarantine with someone until his tests come back? IIRC, RA is an autoimmune disease so it would be harder for you to get it.  

Fingers crossed he is negative and i.hope your other son is doing well.


----------



## AliOop

rdc1978 said:


> IIRC, RA is an autoimmune disease so it would be harder for you to get it.


Yes, RA is an autoimmune disease. But those make one MORE susceptible to any kind of virus or illness, not less. That can be compounded by the medications for RA, which often dampen the immune system, including one of the most common ones, methotrexate.


----------



## Adobehead

soapysarah said:


> I suggest researching vitamin D (not a vitamin, a hormone) and its ability to reduce severity on COVID-19 and reduce the possibility of contracting coronavirus.  Best wishes.


The formula my doctor has made up for his patients contains Vit. D.  also A.  Another formula from him has L-Lysine, Zinc, Folic Acid and Selenium. I think everything we can do to support the immune system benefits us.  D is a big one!


----------



## The Park Bench

The Park Bench said:


> A second of our sons, Kagen, tested positive today.  His younger brother lives at home with us but spent last weekend with Kagen .... Now I'm getting nervous.  I have rheumatoid arthritis and don't need any additional pain!


Kagen finishes his quarantine tomorrow.  He doesn't live at home as he is 27, thankfully his brother who does live at home, my husband and I are all feeling fine!. Thank you everyone for your support!!


----------



## GemstonePony

My Covid test just came back negative! I'm so relieved that I wasn't a risk to my coworkers or family. I still have no symptoms, but my roommate hasn't been able to smell or taste anything for a few days. She says her diet has become very low-sugar, because there's no point. A mutual friend of my roommate asked us what we need for groceries, and then bought them and dropped them off for us earlier this afternoon (it's after 11pm here now).


----------



## Catscankim

I was speaking with a friend last night. Her twin sister is dying from breast cancer and is on home-hospice in a rural area of New York (catskills). I haven't done any traveling, so I didn't know there were traveling rules (living in a bubble I guess lol).

So, in order for her to go see her sister before she dies, she needs to test negative to enter the state (understandable), but then quarantine for 3 days, then on the 4th day test negative again. 

So I told her to drive up. She doesn't want to do the long drive and thinks there is some kind of KGB force waiting for out of state cars at the border. I have taken the trip in the past plenty of times by car to PA, so I get it with the drive. But its not terrible. Plus I wouldn't be real comfortable with flying anyway right now.

Anyway, she is going to fly. I told her that she could just go to PA and just drive up there. She doesn't want to break any rules. I did some research, the only requirement for PA is to have documentation of a negative test to enter and you don't have to quarantine.

New York doesn't have what the consequences are listed on the DOH website (that I could find), but PA is $25-300 fine if you don't have proof of a neg test and then fail to quarantine. 

I get it. Its a pandemic, and normally would just say to obide by the rules. But I feel this is an exception. She and her husband tested negative last week and they are going for another test today before they travel. Even if you were exposed on the airplane, the 4th day test is pointless because your virus load is not going to be high enough for detection, especially with a 40% accuracy rate of the pcr to begin with.

She doesn't think she is going to make it in time. Sadly, her trip might only serve to make final arrangements. Personally, if I have two negative tests, then I am going to see my sister.


----------



## Catscankim

I had an interesting conversation with a nurse tonight. He is enrolled in a doctorate program, and he and some colleagues submitted a study on the effects of smoking on corona virus. I have heard this before a long time ago, but shrugged it off as fake news.

These guys have lots and lots of facts and figures. _Less than 10% of the *WORLDs* positive corona cases are smokers._ That means 90% of all cases are non-smokers. In China, about 50% of all men smoke, and their male smoker corona cases are nearly non-existent....like 1%

At first they thought it was the nicotine, but studies proved that wrong. A lot of theories were disproven, but they think they have come up with the reason...the high temperature of what is being inhaled, and it is not just cigarette smokers: it is vapers, marijuana smokers...basically anything that is a higher temperature when you inhale it, because corona cannot survive at a certain temperature (I forget what he said that temp was). He said cigarette smoke is inhaled at 130 degrees (which as a smoker, I don't think I am inhaling 130 degree cigarette smoke. I could be wrong, there's no way for me to tell lol). 

Obviously a nurse with a doctorate is not going to purport smoking as a prevention for corona, but his proposal was to invent a product made out of something safe that you can inhale, like vegetable oil based or sterile water/saline based solution that can be used with a vape or some sort of steam, maybe as a prophylactic: come out of the supermarket, hit your corona vape lol.

The University of Miami shot it down because they don't want to advocate smoking.

They are prepared to take this idea down different avenues with all their research and facts, including cigarette or vape manufacturers...they all have labs too.

After I got home from work I did a little quick google research of my own, most of the articles are either old, or say how bad it COULD be for smokers. But I did find a few that agree with this, WebMD of all sites LOL. But then there was also a study done in Paris. That article was old, and they planned, back then, to give hospital workers nicotine patches (because last year they thought that nicotine was the reason for the phenomenon), so it's not a hairbrain idea these guys have. It seems to be substantiated. These are educated people with the means to do medical research.

After I make some soap, I am going to do deeper research if its not too late. I guess good places to start are NIH, WHO, CDC if anybody else wants to do some digging of their own.


----------



## paradisi

Jason Sheltzer on Twitter: "This preprint has been going around the internet suggesting that smoking actually protects against coronavirus. I’m going to highlight some errors that went into this analysis and why I think you should be skeptical of its conclusions…


Andreas Backhaus on Twitter: "I wish that people would simply ask "Why aren't there as many smokers among COVID19 cases and deaths as I expected?" instead of making misleading interpretations. First, p. 69 of the French report says smoking IS associated with…


----------



## DKing

my son found out today that he is getting the Pfizer vaccination tomorrow.  For those who have already been vaccinated, should he take tylenol or advil or anything prior to the shot or wait until after to see if he has any sort of reaction?


----------



## beckster51

DKing said:


> my son found out today that he is getting the Pfizer vaccination tomorrow.  For those who have already been vaccinated, should he take tylenol or advil or anything prior to the shot or wait until after to see if he has any sort of reaction?


I have not received this vaccine, but I always take Tylenol after I get a vaccine.  It certainly mediates a lot of  side effects such as fever and aches that I always have after I get a vaccination.  I don't think he should take anything before the shot.  If he has a reaction, they will want to decide what to give him.  Any other nurses want to weigh in on this issue?


----------



## DKing

beckster51 said:


> I have not received this vaccine, but I always take Tylenol after I get a vaccine.  It certainly mediates a lot of  side effects such as fever and aches that I always have after I get a vaccination.  I don't think he should take anything before the shot.  If he has a reaction, they will want to decide what to give him.  Any other nurses want to weigh in on this issue?


I did find a couple of websites that said it is best not to take anything prior to the shot as there are no studies as to whether it may reduce the benefit of the shot or not.  So he is planning to wait now until a bit after he has his shot and take it something he develops any soreness or aches, etc.  thank you!


----------



## Catscankim

It was a few hours before i felt like i needed to take some ibuprofen. And i took it regularly for a few days because the site hurts pretty bad, like a tetanus shot.


----------



## Daisy

DKing said:


> I did find a couple of websites that said it is best not to take anything prior to the shot as there are no studies as to whether it may reduce the benefit of the shot or not.  So he is planning to wait now until a bit after he has his shot and take it something he develops any soreness or aches, etc.  thank you!


That's a great decision! Even though some recommend taking for soreness and aches afterwards,
I never take any. I still believe a vaccine should be left well alone for a few days.
Of course there are cases that are severe enough to warrant a non steroidal anti inflammatory drug.
Best wishes to your son


----------



## DKing

Daisy said:


> That's a great decision! Even though some recommend taking for soreness and aches afterwards,
> I never take any. I still believe a vaccine should be left well alone for a few days.
> Of course there are cases that are severe enough to warrant a non steroidal anti inflammatory drug.
> Best wishes to your son


He is about 2 hours past receiving the vaccination right now and feeling no ill effects so doesn't plan to take anything currently.  In general, he tends to hold off on taking any otc meds unless he is feeling really unwell and i imagine he won't be too quick to rush to take anything unless necessary.  I feel a lot of relief that he is not having any problems so far.  There is so much conflicting information out there that it can make you a little apprehensive about taking these vaccinations even though I know it is the way to go to get life back to normal as quickly as possible.


----------



## Catscankim

Well, a bunch of messages back I complained that even though my hospital had the vaccine before christmas, we didn't start getting it until start date of Jan 4th because the morons in our employee health dept were on holiday break. *The CDC is paying attention*. NOW they (employee health) are like get your shot NOW!!! Because the CDC is threatening to withdraw our supply because it hadn't rolled out  as quick as it should have. There are a lot of curse words that I am omitting from this message.

They made me an appt for my second does for Feb 1st (Monday) after my first dose. I had no choice in this date (btw, they only give the shots until 1:30 pm because they leave for the day at 3pm). 

Lots of ppl are sick and one of our techs is out "indefinitely" because she has lupus and should not have gotten the shot to begin with and now she is sick. They are *currently* not making appts for the second vaccine unless you have the next day off because so many ppl are calling out because they are sick.

I went to the employee health dept today..."can you make my appt for Friday please, I have off all weekend, we are already short staffed and now one of our techs is out because of getting sick from it. I cannot miss work."

_NO. Keep your appointment or you do not get the second dose. You cannot change your appointment._

So when they realize that ppl are not coming to work after the second dose, they made a rule that you cannot get the shot if you have work the next day, then tell me that I am not allowed to make a different appointment because I don't want to miss work if I get sick, because we are short staffed and I can't afford to be out. I would rather be home feeling like crap then being at work or calling out for it.

Me not changing my appointment from Monday to Friday is an absolute decision. Employee health said no... my director went to HR to get my shot on a different day and they said no. 

It makes no difference to ME if i get it Monday or Friday. I just know how short we already are. And so many people are calling out. Even the HR girl said she called out the next day. I am trying to avoid that if i feel that bad. And btw, why did HR get the vaccine before me?? They are not frontline. I had to talk to them through a speaker  on the other side of the door LOL. They are so afraid of US...

These people are idiots. My *whole* department is getting our second dose next week.

BTW: I am not trying to deter people from getting the vaccine. A doctor that i work with said that if you get sick then that is good...healthy immune system and you are making antibodies. I am complaining about our system....


----------



## beckster51

Catscankim said:


> Well, a bunch of messages back I complained that even though my hospital had the vaccine before christmas, we didn't start getting it until start date of Jan 4th because the morons in our employee health dept were on holiday break. *The CDC is paying attention*. NOW they (employee health) are like get your shot NOW!!! Because the CDC is threatening to withdraw our supply because it hadn't rolled out  as quick as it should have. There are a lot of curse words that I am omitting from this message.
> 
> They made me an appt for my second does for Feb 1st (Monday) after my first dose. I had no choice in this date (btw, they only give the shots until 1:30 pm because they leave for the day at 3pm).
> 
> Lots of ppl are sick and one of our techs is out "indefinitely" because she has lupus and should not have gotten the shot to begin with and now she is sick. They are *currently* not making appts for the second vaccine unless you have the next day off because so many ppl are calling out because they are sick.
> 
> I went to the employee health dept today..."can you make my appt for Friday please, I have off all weekend, we are already short staffed and now one of our techs is out because of getting sick from it. I cannot miss work."
> 
> _NO. Keep your appointment or you do not get the second dose. You cannot change your appointment._
> 
> So when they realize that ppl are not coming to work after the second dose, they made a rule that you cannot get the shot if you have work the next day, then tell me that I am not allowed to make a different appointment because I don't want to miss work if I get sick, because we are short staffed and I can't afford to be out. I would rather be home feeling like crap then being at work or calling out for it.
> 
> Me not changing my appointment from Monday to Friday is an absolute decision. Employee health said no... my director went to HR to get my shot on a different day and they said no.
> 
> It makes no difference to ME if i get it Monday or Friday. I just know how short we already are. And so many people are calling out. Even the HR girl said she called out the next day. I am trying to avoid that if i feel that bad. And btw, why did HR get the vaccine before me?? They are not frontline. I had to talk to them through a speaker  on the other side of the door LOL. They are so afraid of US...
> 
> These people are idiots. My *whole* department is getting our second dose next week.
> 
> BTW: I am not trying to deter people  from getting the vaccine. A doctor that i work with said that if you get sick then that is good...healthy immune system and you are making antibodies. I am complaining about our system....


Kim, you have done what you could to avoid delays in service.  Try to let it go.  You can't cure stupid.


----------



## DKing

@Catscankim   Do you know if it is only with the second dose that you are likely to get a reaction?  My son had the Pfizer one, but only first dose so far, and had absolutely no reaction from it other than a mildly sore arm for a couple of days.  I also heard that if you get a reaction that it shows that your body is reacting and forming antibodies to the virus.  Now I am wondering if maybe his dose lost its effectiveness somehow.  With how cold it needs to be stored, I have to wonder if there had been a time during its making and then delivery and storage until it was ready to be used, if maybe someone dropped the ball.  Have you heard of any of your colleagues getting really sick after the second dose?  I have read some concerning reports that seem to be mostly connected to the Pfizer vaccine, that have me a bit anxious as I know my son will be having his second dose in about 2-3 weeks.


----------



## beckster51

@DKing  Most people have a more severe reaction to the second shot, if they are going to have one at all.  The first shot "introduces" the virus to your immune system.  By the time you get the second shot, your immune system can fully recognize it, and it reacts much more than it does to the first shot.   The first shot does provide some immunity, but it is the second shot that provides much higher immunity.  Does this make sense?  I may not be explaining it well.  There is no proof that I know of that you must have a lot of side effects for the vaccine to be effective.  Everybody's body is different, and some people notice side effects and some don't.


----------



## BattleGnome

@DKing I had the Pfizer shot through work and of the 6 people (including myself) that I’ve been able to talk to only one person had anything more than a sore arm. The one person who had a fever was maybe a degree over his normal temp (taken 4x daily). The fever responded to Tylenol and he was back to his usual self in a half hour or so.


----------



## Catscankim

My partner/buddy at work tested positive for covid today. He is a little older...been at my hospital for 30 years. He is not sick, but his wife is. I am so sad, he is so lost. She is REALLY sick, and he is blaming himself for bringing it home.

I went over to their room in the ER to see him. He looks gray. Just so tired. He said he hadn't eaten or slept in 48 hours. I brought him a piece of chocolate cake that I bought from the cafeteria (i know, yumm LOL but it's all I had). I know they way to his heart...he likes his sweets. I always leave him cookies or something at change of shift.

I talked to the doc a little, and she said that his wife is super sick. O2 sats keep going down, and she has a total change in mental status. She isn't intubated yet, but its probably coming. I am so sad. She is the love of his life. Seriously loves her with a passion.

I gowned up and sat with him for a while while he ate his cake. He is so tired, he is not even making sense.

HR told him that he is cleared to come back to work on Monday because he has no symptoms. I told him that I would cover any shifts that he needs. We all are, not just me. I hope she is ok.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Catscankim said:


> HR told him that he is cleared to come back to work on Monday because he has no symptoms. I told him that I would cover any shifts that he needs. We all are, not just me. I hope she is ok.



 I am so shocked to hear this! In NZ - if you are tested you have to self-isolate until the results are through as negative. If the results are positive - you must continue to self isolate until you test negative - symptoms or no symptoms.


----------



## Catscankim

Yep. Can come back if you are positive, and they won't test us. In the beginning of covid, we could come back after TWO negative tests. I was outside smoking with an OB nurse one day and I asked where she had been. She said she was coming back from COVID. Her wife was sick, and she (nurse) only had loss of taste and smell. Wife was still sick, but she was still told to come back to work because she wasn't SICK sick, even with a second positive test.

Honestly, I told my work partner to tell them that he was sick or had symptoms. A....we work in small quarters. B....he cannot work with his wife so sick. I don't understand this country.

Or maybe he should take FMLA (leave of absence covered for yourself, or a sick loved one). I know we are going to get killed with staffing but right is right. Take your time off. He hasn't called out a day in his life in 30 years...


----------



## Catscankim

rules keep changing. I thought I had it...prob flu or something (or not willing to shove my own swab far enough up my nose LOL). They kept me out even with a negative covid test. Now you can come back with a positive test and no symptoms...


----------



## soapmaker

Catscankim said:


> Yep. Can come back if you are positive, and they won't test us. In the beginning of covid, we could come back after TWO negative tests. I was outside smoking with an OB nurse one day and I asked where she had been. She said she was coming back from COVID. Her wife was sick, and she (nurse) only had loss of taste and smell. Wife was still sick, but she was still told to come back to work because she wasn't SICK sick, even with a second positive test.
> 
> Honestly, I told my work partner to tell them that he was sick or had symptoms. A....we work in small quarters. B....he cannot work with his wife so sick. I don't understand this country.
> 
> Or maybe he should take FMLA (leave of absence covered for yourself, or a sick loved one). I know we are going to get killed with staffing but right is right. Take your time off. He hasn't called out a day in his life in 30 years...


So sad. I'm so sorry for all the suffering.


----------



## linne1gi

Catscankim said:


> My partner/buddy at work tested positive for covid today. He is a little older...been at my hospital for 30 years. He is not sick, but his wife is. I am so sad, he is so lost. She is REALLY sick, and he is blaming himself for bringing it home.
> 
> I went over to their room in the ER to see him. He looks gray. Just so tired. He said he hadn't eaten or slept in 48 hours. I brought him a piece of chocolate cake that I bought from the cafeteria (i know, yumm LOL but it's all I had). I know they way to his heart...he likes his sweets. I always leave him cookies or something at change of shift.
> 
> I talked to the doc a little, and she said that his wife is super sick. O2 sats keep going down, and she has a total change in mental status. She isn't intubated yet, but its probably coming. I am so sad. She is the love of his life. Seriously loves her with a passion.
> 
> I gowned up and sat with him for a while while he ate his cake. He is so tired, he is not even making sense.
> 
> HR told him that he is cleared to come back to work on Monday because he has no symptoms. I told him that I would cover any shifts that he needs. We all are, not just me. I hope she is ok.


That is so sad. It’s heartening that you are so kind. I certainly don’t understand how he could come to work with a positive test, symptoms or not. Isn’t that how this is being spread? And that’s why we still wear a mask even though we are vaccinated.  SMH.  I’m sending positive thoughts your way.


----------



## beckster51

I hate to hear this, Kim.  He is living my worst fear.  My husband is very high risk, and although I am very careful and rarely leave the house, I always felt like I should take a shower in alcohol when I got back home.  I would rather be sick than him.  I know your friend must be terrified and so sad.  I think he should take sick time since it sounds like his wife will end up in ICU.  I took time off when my husband was in ICU.  Who can work when their loved one may be dying?! I read an article this week that stated that it was a violation of "first do no harm" for any HCW to work with a positive test.  Also, he should take time off just to take care of himself.  Sending very positive thoughts his way, and like linne1gi, SMH.  You are very kind to provide emotional support when he is so lost.  My husband and I got our second shot of Pfizer this week, and I have been pretty sick, but still very glad to have received it.


----------



## Jersey Girl

I sat at my computer early this morning and was shocked that I was able to score an appt for the J&J vaccine at a CVS. It’s next to impossible to get an appt here in NJ but I kept at it refreshing and refreshing and I guess having fast fingers. I’m very nervous about getting it but I’ve decided I’m more anxious about getting the illness. I really wanted a two shot vaccines but you take what you can get here. But I’m concerned with the less efficacy of this vaccine that I can still get a mild case and pass it to my 83 yr old mother who refuses to get vaccinated. Ugh!


----------



## rdc1978

Catscankim said:


> My partner/buddy at work tested positive for covid today. He is a little older...been at my hospital for 30 years. He is not sick, but his wife is. I am so sad, he is so lost. She is REALLY sick, and he is blaming himself for bringing it home.
> 
> I went over to their room in the ER to see him. He looks gray. Just so tired. He said he hadn't eaten or slept in 48 hours. I brought him a piece of chocolate cake that I bought from the cafeteria (i know, yumm LOL but it's all I had). I know they way to his heart...he likes his sweets. I always leave him cookies or something at change of shift.
> 
> I talked to the doc a little, and she said that his wife is super sick. O2 sats keep going down, and she has a total change in mental status. She isn't intubated yet, but its probably coming. I am so sad. She is the love of his life. Seriously loves her with a passion.
> 
> I gowned up and sat with him for a while while he ate his cake. He is so tired, he is not even making sense.
> 
> HR told him that he is cleared to come back to work on Monday because he has no symptoms. I told him that I would cover any shifts that he needs. We all are, not just me. I hope she is ok.



What an awful thing.  Its one thing to hear the facts and figures, its another when you realize its an individual human being, and even when cases and hospitalizations drop, each number STILL represents a human being in pain.  And now two. 

I thought there was a drug that helped to counter the symptoms once a person got sick?  Is she not a candidate?  That poor man must be a basket case.  

What a wonderful thing you and your team are doing in covering his shifts, I really hope she improves


----------



## beckster51

Jersey Girl said:


> I sat at my computer early this morning and was shocked that I was able to score an appt for the J&J vaccine at a CVS. It’s next to impossible to get an appt here in NJ but I kept at it refreshing and refreshing and I guess having fast fingers. I’m very nervous about getting it but I’ve decided I’m more anxious about getting the illness. I really wanted a two shot vaccines but you take what you can get here. But I’m concerned with the less efficacy of this vaccine that I can still get a mild case and pass it to my 83 yr old mother who refuses to get vaccinated. Ugh!


Jersey girl, the best vaccine is the one you can get!  And since you are concerned about passing this to your mother, and rightfully so, here is an article that may ease your mind.









						Why the Johnson & Johnson Vaccine Should Reduce COVID-19 Transmission
					

Data suggests that the newest COVID vaccine reduces asymptomatic infections by 74%. Learn how does this affect your chances of passing on the virus.




					www.verywellhealth.com
				




As an aside, I feel better this morning.  I got my second shot of Pfizer vaccine on Monday morning, felt fine all day Monday, but began feeling bad on Tuesday evening, which was a surprise.  I had flu-like symptoms of aches and pains all over, being very low energy, and lots of GI symptoms, which have all improved, but the GI symptoms seem to be hanging on.  I still feel lucky to have received the vaccine, and the side effects that I have had are much better than getting Covid.  So there's that.  I wish you could talk your mother into getting the shot.  She is someone who would certainly benefit from having it, and the side effects in people her age seem to be greatly reduced since the elderly have a less robust immune system reaction.  I am 70 (so elderly!), so I was a bit surprised at my side effects.  I thought they would be less than they were.  My 74 y.o. husband only had a sore arm.  Good luck!  I hope you don't have any side effects and a great experience.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

In case anyone is interested, if you test positive but are NOT in respiratory distress, stay home and IHRT:
Isolate
Hydrate
Rest
Treat it like you would a cold.


----------



## rdc1978

I just told me sister yesterday that I'm desperate for any shot.  At this point they could probably inject me with saline and id be ecstatic!


----------



## Jersey Girl

beckster51 said:


> Jersey girl, the best vaccine is the one you can get!  And since you are concerned about passing this to your mother, and rightfully so, here is an article that may ease your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why the Johnson & Johnson Vaccine Should Reduce COVID-19 Transmission
> 
> 
> Data suggests that the newest COVID vaccine reduces asymptomatic infections by 74%. Learn how does this affect your chances of passing on the virus.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.verywellhealth.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As an aside, I feel better this morning.  I got my second shot of Pfizer vaccine on Monday morning, felt fine all day Monday, but began feeling bad on Tuesday evening, which was a surprise.  I had flu-like symptoms of aches and pains all over, being very low energy, and lots of GI symptoms, which have all improved, but the GI symptoms seem to be hanging on.  I still feel lucky to have received the vaccine, and the side effects that I have had are much better than getting Covid.  So there's that.  I wish you could talk your mother into getting the shot.  She is someone who would certainly benefit from having it, and the side effects in people her age seem to be greatly reduced since the elderly have a less robust immune system reaction.  I am 70 (so elderly!), so I was a bit surprised at my side effects.  I thought they would be less than they were.  My 74 y.o. husband only had a sore arm.  Good luck!  I hope you don't have any side effects and a great experience.



Thank you. The article was encouraging. My mom is very high risk with congestive heart disease.  I’m going to have to work hard to convince her though as she is very skeptical and afraid but I think the J&J one would be a good choice for her as the technology used to develop has been used for ages and I think that was a big fear of hers with the others.


----------



## Jstheidi

DKing said:


> my son found out today that he is getting the Pfizer vaccination tomorrow.  For those who have already been vaccinated, should he take tylenol or advil or anything prior to the shot or wait until after to see if he has any sort of reaction?


I’ve had both doses of the vaccine and I would suggest taking Tylenol at least 2 hours before getting the injection just to help with the sore in the arm and in case he spikes a little fever afterwards. I did fine with my first dose, but spiked fever of 101* and a very sore arm about 15 hours after the 2nd injection. Thank goodness it only lasted a day and then I was fine. i took the Moderna Vaccine.


----------



## DKing

Jstheidi said:


> I’ve had both doses of the vaccine and I would suggest taking Tylenol at least 2 hours before getting the injection just to help with the sore in the arm and in case he spikes a little fever afterwards. I did fine with my first dose, but spiked fever of 101* and a very sore arm about 15 hours after the 2nd injection. Thank goodness it only lasted a day and then I was fine. i took the Moderna Vaccine.


My son was supposed to get the second dose yesterday, but it was cancelled as they seem to be increasing the time between 1st and 2nd doses now so that more people can have a first.  No clue when his appointment will be rescheduled but I have read of many others in the same situation as you, having no real problem with the first dose but reacting more to the second one.  He knows to expect that he might not get away as easily with the second injection as he did the first.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Jstheidi said:


> I’ve had both doses of the vaccine and I would suggest taking Tylenol at least 2 hours before getting the injection just to help with the sore in the arm and in case he spikes a little fever afterwards. I did fine with my first dose, but spiked fever of 101* and a very sore arm about 15 hours after the 2nd injection. Thank goodness it only lasted a day and then I was fine. i took the Moderna Vaccine.



I just looked this up because I had read or heard that it wasn’t recommended to take Tylenol or Advil before the shot. After is ok, but before they say not to. Here is an article.









						Yes, you can take OTC pain meds after getting the Covid vaccine, says CDC — plus other tips for dealing with side effects
					

What you can do, and what you shouldn't do, when it comes to OTC medications and the Covid-19 vaccine.




					www.cnbc.com


----------



## soapmaker

Zany_in_CO said:


> In case anyone is interested, if you test positive but are NOT in respiratory distress, stay home and IHRT:
> Isolate
> Hydrate
> Rest
> Treat it like you would a cold.


Of course, we're all interested


----------



## Catscankim

linne1gi said:


> That is so sad. It’s heartening that you are so kind. I certainly don’t understand how he could come to work with a positive test, symptoms or not. Isn’t that how this is being spread? And that’s why we still wear a mask even though we are vaccinated.  SMH.  I’m sending positive thoughts your way.


He came back to work tonight. Me and my partner were sitting in the department eating ice cream and he walked in early because he went up to see his wife prior to his shift and they wouldn't let him in..badge or no badge.

So here we were with no masks on eating ice cream, and he walks in 45 min early LOL. He had a mask on, but it was still like OMG HE IS COVID lol.

And I felt so bad. He just looks lost. I asked if he has eaten (casually putting my mask on), he said no. And I had no cake or cookies for him, which I usually do. All I had was a nutrigrain bar and he at least took that.

They are very old fashioned...he worked and she cooked and such. Spanish couple. I guess it is cultural I dunno. Or just their age.

After a short conversation, I am finally like ... you don't mind if I go right?

And I love that guy. I just don't love all his covidness lol. And it's not his fault. HR (who has no clue) told him to come back. They only tested positive on Thursday. I told him the other day to tell them that he has symptoms and I will work most if not all of his shifts so he doesn't feel like he is screwing the department, but he doesn't want to lie. This is a guy that hasn't called out in 30 years. We are a 6-person department. I would rather be exhausted from working too much, than for all of us to be sick. And even with a mask on...here he is touching all the computers and talking on the phone etc.

And now I am sitting home letting my inner hypochondriac kick in LOL.

edit....And our HR and employee health department...we cannot even go into their office since covid started. You talk to them through the newly installed microphone outside the door. They are so petrified of anybody clinical, it's ridiculous. But it is ok for a clinical coworker to come back to work positive. Our area is literally the size of a medium sized bathroom. So we are really close together all the time. One girl went to get some medical records and she had to slide the forms under the door and was told to come back...then they slid her requested documents back under the door. Plus they stopped TB testing us because "it is not necessary at our facility". This has been a yearly test for the 25 years that I have been a tech...suddenly we don't need to be tested anymore.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Catscankim said:


> He came back to work tonight. Me and my partner were sitting in the department eating ice cream and he walked in early because he went up to see his wife prior to his shift and they wouldn't let him in..badge or no badge.
> 
> So here we were with no masks on eating ice cream, and he walks in 45 min early LOL. He had a mask on, but it was still like OMG HE IS COVID lol.
> 
> And I felt so bad. He just looks lost. I asked if he has eaten (casually putting my mask on), he said no. And I had no cake or cookies for him, which I usually do. All I had was a nutrigrain bar and he at least took that.
> 
> They are very old fashioned...he worked and she cooked and such. Spanish couple. I guess it is cultural I dunno. Or just their age.
> 
> After a short conversation, I am finally like ... you don't mind if I go right?
> 
> And I love that guy. I just don't love all his covidness lol. And it's not his fault. HR (who has no clue) told him to come back. They only tested positive on Thursday. I told him the other day to tell them that he has symptoms and I will work most if not all of his shifts so he doesn't feel like he is screwing the department, but he doesn't want to lie. This is a guy that hasn't called out in 30 years. We are a 6-person department. I would rather be exhausted from working too much, than for all of us to be sick. And even with a mask on...here he is touching all the computers and talking on the phone etc.
> 
> And now I am sitting home letting my inner hypochondriac kick in LOL.
> 
> edit....And our HR and employee health department...we cannot even go into their office since covid started. You talk to them through the newly installed microphone outside the door. They are so petrified of anybody clinical, it's ridiculous. But it is ok for a clinical coworker to come back to work positive. Our area is literally the size of a medium sized bathroom. So we are really close together all the time. One girl went to get some medical records and she had to slide the forms under the door and was told to come back...then they slid her requested documents back under the door. Plus they stopped TB testing us because "it is not necessary at our facility". This has been a yearly test for the 25 years that I have been a tech...suddenly we don't need to be tested anymore.



I thought you were vaccinated?


----------



## earlene

Jersey Girl said:


> I sat at my computer early this morning and was shocked that I was able to score an appt for the J&J vaccine at a CVS. It’s next to impossible to get an appt here in NJ but I kept at it refreshing and refreshing and I guess having fast fingers. I’m very nervous about getting it but I’ve decided I’m more anxious about getting the illness. I really wanted a two shot vaccines but you take what you can get here. But I’m concerned with the less efficacy of this vaccine that I can still get a mild case and pass it to my 83 yr old mother who refuses to get vaccinated. Ugh!



Congratulations!  My disabled son (my eldest) really wants the Janssen vaccine because he really hates the whole process of a injections and would really like to not have to go back for the booster.  It's totally understandable and having spent so much time in hospitals with him over the years (multiple hospitalizations, surgeries and uncountable numbers of injections), he really doesn't enjoy anything medical related.

The Janssen (by Johnson & Johnson) vaccine has very good results, particularly for preventing severe disease and hospitalizations and death.  I would fully support my son getting that one if it were available here.

But I spent days and countless hours trying to find an open appointment for him to get it and finally scheduled him for the Moderna as the closest location for Janssen was 345 miles away. For a round trip, that would cost him about $100.00 in gasoline plus an overnight stay in a hotel somewhere along the way! And he can't manage a long drive like that due to his disability and his other medical issues.

So he gets his first Moderna dose on Friday and he's over-the-moon about that.

Hubby & I get our second Moderna doses tomorrow.



Jersey Girl said:


> I thought you were vaccinated?



Vaccination does not mean everyone who is vaccinated will never contract or spread the virus or contract newer variants that have arisen and/or may arise in the future. The clinical trials show that some vaccinated individuals, do both those things, although to a lesser degree. So far, the approved vaccines do remain extremely protective, but remember, this is a rolling target, and new variants keep popping up, so we must continue to protect ourselves and everyone else by maintaining protective infection-prevention measures (masks, shields, distancing, hygiene, etc.)

PLEASE don't think once you are vaccinated you can safely stop the important infection prevention measures that have been working so well to reduce deaths and infection. They are still needed a while longer.


----------



## Obsidian

Work places just aren't doing enough to protect their employees and families.

My hubbies work won't let infected employees work but they will let them come in if any of their family test positive.
When I got sick and had to be tested, they told hubby, just wear a mask. He should have been sent home until my test came back (it was negative)
Now covid is making the rounds through hubbies work and only a few people have gotten vaccinated and those people are no longer required to to wear masks.

Luckily, I was able to schedule a vaccination for today, along with my mom and 92 yr old grandmother. Now to get one in my hubby as he has some risk factors, as do I. 
He is skeptical of the newer vaccines but seems more willing to get the j&j, which is the one I'm getting.


----------



## Catscankim

Jersey Girl said:


> I thought you were vaccinated?


Yeah, well so was he and his wife


----------



## Jersey Girl

Catscankim said:


> Yeah, well so was he and his wife



That’s disturbing to hear. How long ago did she get vaccinated?  Everything I read says that these vaccines are supposed to protect you from severe disease at the very least.  J & J a bit less effective but that’s only been given for a couple weeks at most so I’m assuming they got the two shot vacc.  There is that 5% I guess.  Yikes...kind of makes me not want to bother getting one!


----------



## Misschief

There's been a positive in my boss' daughter's class and she now has to self-isolate. Thankfully, my boss is staying away as much as possible and working from an empty space in our production shop (off site). When he does come to the storefront (he runs product back and forth), he's conscientious about wearing his mask and staying as far away from us as possible, keeping contact to an absolute minimum.


----------



## Jersey Girl

earlene said:


> Congratulations!  My disabled son (my eldest) really wants the Janssen vaccine because he really hates the whole process of a injections and would really like to not have to go back for the booster.  It's totally understandable and having spent so much time in hospitals with him over the years (multiple hospitalizations, surgeries and uncountable numbers of injections), he really doesn't enjoy anything medical related.
> 
> The Janssen (by Johnson & Johnson) vaccine has very good results, particularly for preventing severe disease and hospitalizations and death.  I would fully support my son getting that one if it were available here.
> 
> But I spent days and countless hours trying to find an open appointment for him to get it and finally scheduled him for the Moderna as the closest location for Janssen was 345 miles away. For a round trip, that would cost him about $100.00 in gasoline plus an overnight stay in a hotel somewhere along the way! And he can't manage a long drive like that due to his disability and his other medical issues.
> 
> So he gets his first Moderna dose on Friday and he's over-the-moon about that.
> 
> Hubby & I get our second Moderna doses tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccination does not mean everyone who is vaccinated will never contract or spread the virus or contract newer variants that have arisen and/or may arise in the future. The clinical trials show that some vaccinated individuals, do both those things, although to a lesser degree. So far, the approved vaccines do remain extremely protective, but remember, this is a rolling target, and new variants keep popping up, so we must continue to protect ourselves and everyone else by maintaining protective infection-prevention measures (masks, shields, distancing, hygiene, etc.)
> 
> PLEASE don't think once you are vaccinated you can safely stop the important infection prevention measures that have been working so well to reduce deaths and infection. They are still needed a while longer.



I understand all that but it’s a bit disturbing hearing how someone who was fully vaccinated contracted it and is severely ill.  I’ve had so much anxiety over this past year. As someone who normally struggles with anxiety and depression this year has had a pretty devastating impact on me.  I rarely go anywhere anymore or interact with anyone in person. I was starting to have some hope, but I can’t imagine another year of living like this let alone longer...


----------



## Catscankim

Jersey Girl said:


> That’s disturbing to hear. How long ago did she get vaccinated?  Everything I read says that these vaccines are supposed to protect you from severe disease at the very least.  J & J a bit less effective but that’s only been given for a couple weeks at most so I’m assuming they got the two shot vacc.  There is that 5% I guess.  Yikes...kind of makes me not want to bother getting one!


But we are exposed all the time. Dont let that change your mind. Get the vaccine


----------



## penelopejane

Jersey Girl said:


> I understand all that but it’s a bit disturbing hearing how someone who was fully vaccinated contracted it and is severely ill.  I’ve had so much anxiety over this past year. As someone who normally struggles with anxiety and depression this year has had a pretty devastating impact on me.  I rarely go anywhere anymore or interact with anyone in person. I was starting to have some hope, but I can’t imagine another year of living like this let alone longer...


It has been a very daunting time for everyone. 
The vaccine will protect you.  There is a greatly reduced possibility of contracting the virus once vaccinated and if by some slim chance you do contract it your body will start fighting the invader immediately and you might not get symptoms, even in the unlikely chance that it does effect you it will be a very mild case and last days rather than weeks.

People in the medical profession and other front line workers are bombarded all day with high amounts of contagen.  Even with their protective gear they are at higher risk than the rest of us. The best thing we can do to show our gratitude to ther wonderful care is to get vacinated so we can protect them as soon as we can.  

This too will pass.  The spanish flu went away without a vaccine so did SARS and MERS (after devastating loss of life).  The consequences of covid will be much less because of the vaccines but it depends on how many of us have the vaccine to stop covid in its tracks as soon as we can.


----------



## TashaBird

One year ago today I had to call and cancel a full schedule of appointments. I’ve been a massage therapist for almost 30 years. Soon I’ll be vaccinated. But it will take a long time to recover.


----------



## AliOop

On the positive side of things, my immune-compromised 64yo husband, my 90yo father with late-stage congestive heart failure, and my 86yo mother with a variety of health issues all got COVID, as did I.

For my husband and I, it was like a bad flu. For my parents, it was nothing more than a bad cold. They are all fully recovered, and I (the healthy one of the bunch) am still slowly regaining my sense of smell but have no other lasting effects.

We were very fortunate to be in the 90+% of the people who get COVID and do recover.  I don't say that to minimize the potential severity, or to suggest that you don't need a vaccine or a mask. But for our own mental health, and that of those we love, it is _*healthy*_ to remind ourselves that the likelihood of getting or giving a severe case to someone is statistically pretty low.

The risk of getting in a bad car accident is much higher, but we don't stop driving; we have just mentally decided not to dwell on those very real risks. And that is appropriate! Once you take all the appropriate driving precautions (wearing a seatbelt and your prescription glasses), it is not helpful to drive in a state of terror over the risk of an accident. Be cautious, yes. Practice defensive driving, yes. But avoid driving with elevated anxiety that will actually increase your accident risk.

The same is true of disease: the elevated level of anxiety caused by constant bombardment of bad news will actually make you more susceptible to being sick. *Source.* So yes, do all the recommended things to avoid the spread of disease. After that is done, practice the same compartmentalization that we have all learned to do regarding the risk of driving. Choose not to dwell on it, because dwelling makes things worse, not better.

Experts like the one reference above are unanimous that of the best things we can do for our physical health, and that of our loved ones, is to take very good care of our mental health. That  includes withdrawing a bit from the onslaught of bad news. Not because you want to pretend it doesn't exist, but because it doesn't help you.

Of course, our first responders don't have this luxury of pulling back a bit; it is in their face all day, every day. But the rest of us can choose to limit our exposure to anxiety-producing news. You can turn off the news and only scan those headlines once every two to three days - or even once a week. Give your body and immune system a break from those jolts of anxiety!

My continuing professional education classes are unanimously recommending that very action as a way to remain emotionally and mentally healthy... which increases the likelihood that I will also stay physically healthy.  And when I know I've done all that I can to maximize my health, that supports the positive feedback loop within all my body systems.

Yes, someone I love could get COVID, or I could have a bad car accident, or be diagnosed with cancer tomorrow, or my husband's illnesses could (will) progress. But I don't want to lose my joy of living right now, when those things are not my present reality.

I hope that makes sense and comes across as an encouragement to those of you who are truly suffering. Anxiety is a horrible affliction, and if there is any way that we can support one another through this, let's do that.


----------



## KimW

AliOop said:


> I hope that makes sense and comes across as an encouragement to those of you who are truly suffering. Anxiety is a horrible affliction, and if there is any way that we can support one another through this, let's do that.



Well said, @AliOop and exactly why I haven't been on any social media since last November.  Thank you for taking time to write such a thoughtful post and for the encouragement.


----------



## Jersey Girl

AliOop said:


> On the positive side of things, my immune-compromised 64yo husband, my 90yo father with late-stage congestive heart failure, and my 86yo mother with a variety of health issues all got COVID, as did I.
> 
> For my husband and I, it was like a bad flu. For my parents, it was nothing more than a bad cold. They are all fully recovered, and I (the healthy one of the bunch) am still slowly regaining my sense of smell but have no other lasting effects.
> 
> We were very fortunate to be in the 90+% of the people who get COVID and do recover.  I don't say that to minimize the potential severity, or to suggest that you don't need a vaccine or a mask. But for our own mental health, and that of those we love, it is _*healthy*_ to remind ourselves that the likelihood of getting or giving a severe case to someone is statistically pretty low.
> 
> The risk of getting in a bad car accident is much higher, but we don't stop driving; we have just mentally decided not to dwell on those very real risks. And that is appropriate! Once you take all the appropriate driving precautions (wearing a seatbelt and your prescription glasses), it is not helpful to drive in a state of terror over the risk of an accident. Be cautious, yes. Practice defensive driving, yes. But avoid driving with elevated anxiety that will actually increase your accident risk.
> 
> The same is true of disease: the elevated level of anxiety caused by constant bombardment of bad news will actually make you more susceptible to being sick. *Source.* So yes, do all the recommended things to avoid the spread of disease. After that is done, practice the same compartmentalization that we have all learned to do regarding the risk of driving. Choose not to dwell on it, because dwelling makes things worse, not better.
> 
> Experts like the one reference above are unanimous that of the best things we can do for our physical health, and that of our loved ones, is to take very good care of our mental health. That  includes withdrawing a bit from the onslaught of bad news. Not because you want to pretend it doesn't exist, but because it doesn't help you.
> 
> Of course, our first responders don't have this luxury of pulling back a bit; it is in their face all day, every day. But the rest of us can choose to limit our exposure to anxiety-producing news. You can turn off the news and only scan those headlines once every two to three days - or even once a week. Give your body and immune system a break from those jolts of anxiety!
> 
> My continuing professional education classes are unanimously recommending that very action as a way to remain emotionally and mentally healthy... which increases the likelihood that I will also stay physically healthy.  And when I know I've done all that I can to maximize my health, that supports the positive feedback loop within all my body systems.
> 
> Yes, I could get COVID, or have a bad car accident, or be diagnosed with cancer in the next minute. But I don't want to lose my joy of living right now, when those things are not my present reality.
> 
> I hope that makes sense and comes across as an encouragement to those of you who are truly suffering. Anxiety is a horrible affliction, and if there is any way that we can support one another through this, let's do that.



I can’t love your words of encouragement any more.  You are 100% correct and I appreciate everything you said.


----------



## AliOop

@KimW yup, no Facebook for me since mid-2020, and I even turned off IG about a month ago. Never was a tweeter so no issues there. I still roam YouTube more than is healthy, but stopped subscribing to some of the channels that caused me to think or behave negatively after watching them. 

@Jersey Girl you got this.


----------



## Something witty

LilyJo said:


> With this now seemingly spreading swiftly around the world,  I wondered whether any of our members are directly or indirectly affected?


I had it early on and am immune compromised so I've been under lockdown ever since. I rarely leave my appointment for my safety and when I do go out for an appointment or if I want to grocery shop with a family member I gamble getting sick for 1-3 months at a time. It's been rough.

I'm "young" so I may not get my dose of vaccine till September due to losing my dr right before all this crap went down.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Had my J&J one dose shot a couple hours ago and I’m still here!  Woohoo!


----------



## earlene

My husband & I got our 2nd doses of Moderna 2 days ago & my disabled son was vaccinated yesterday with his first dose of the pfizer vaccine.  He finally agreed to get the 2-dose vaccine because I couldn't find anywhere locally that was giving the one-dose Janssen vaccine.  It almost didn't happen because he gets too easily frustrate with anything medical related, but he did get the injection.  I am very happy about this progress forward.

I am also happy that I have had no side effects/adverse symptoms.  My husband felt muscular soreness yesterday and missed a day of work because he had so much trouble sleeping due to the discomfort, but he is fine today.  All I had was the usual very slight tenderness at the site of injection, but only if I touch it.

Being quite comfortable with injections, I do not tense up; I always watch the injection as it is being given; I rarely have any reaction.  Overall, I am fortunate in that way.

My son, DIL & granddaughter want me to come visit with Kitty Baby in April.  I may, but I have surgery on April 7th on my right hand, so have to see how well my hand recovers and if I can safely drive.  I'll surely be going with my son for his 2nd CoVid vaccination injection (as moral support and to ensure he doesn't walk out when he gets frustrated with the process), the day after surgery.  I won't be driving that day, but I will be recuperating, I hope.

Anyway, I hope my younger son & granddaughter can get their vaccines by then. Both are what are considered front-line workers in Texas, so I'd feel better if they get their vaccines, although we spent months together prior to me being vaccinated and nothing untoward happened. We all miss each other and they all miss Kitty Baby.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I had my first dose of the Moderna vaccine 10 days ago and was so grateful in that moment to be on my way to lowered risk of infection. I took a couple of tylenol the first morning after the shot, but then remembered that it may be best to let the body respond.  My arm was very sore and I was tired the next day, but I was nearly 100% by day two.

As I look back over the last year, it’s so strange to realize that I’ve spent the vast majority of my days alone sitting in front of a computer on zoom in a 9x9 room. When this is finally over and it’s safe to be together again, I’m going to throw a big party, dance, laugh, and hug everyone I can.


----------



## Obsidian

I had some mild reactions to the j&j shot, really sore arm and swollen lymph in my arm pit but that happens with regular flu vaccinations too. Had a couple days where I just felt ran down and a little foggy, slept more then normal.

Feeling fine today, arm is still a little sore and the lymph is still swollen, it could last another week.
Doctors have been unable to determine why my lymph glands swell like they do, its not a normal side effect. Sometimes its really bad and painful enough I can't put my arm down for days.


----------



## KimW

Obsidian said:


> I had some mild reactions to the j&j shot, really sore arm and swollen lymph in my arm pit but that happens with regular flu vaccinations too. Had a couple days where I just felt ran down and a little foggy, slept more then normal.
> 
> Feeling fine today, arm is still a little sore and the lymph is still swollen, it could last another week.
> Doctors have been unable to determine why my lymph glands swell like they do, its not a normal side effect. Sometimes its really bad and painful enough I can't put my arm down for days.


If it's any consolation, the same thing happens to me when I get just about any type of vaccine (prior military), tetanus being the only exception that comes to mind.  Never so bad that I couldn't put my arm down, but bad enough that I would elevate it as much as possible.  I never thought to ask anyone why this would happen.  I'm not a Dr., but I do know my body and I know usually the first lymph nodes that swell or become tender when I start to get sick are not the glands in my neck, but the glands in my armpits.  Also, during routine exams my GP would examine the armpit nodes as well as the neck area nodes.  I never questioned it because it made sense to me given what I knew about my body.  So, there must be something that's "ok" "normal" about it... ??


----------



## Babyshoes

Obsidian said:


> I had some mild reactions to the j&j shot, really sore arm and swollen lymph in my arm pit but that happens with regular flu vaccinations too. Had a couple days where I just felt ran down and a little foggy, slept more then normal.
> 
> Feeling fine today, arm is still a little sore and the lymph is still swollen, it could last another week.
> Doctors have been unable to determine why my lymph glands swell like they do, its not a normal side effect. Sometimes its really bad and painful enough I can't put my arm down for days.



I also get swelling in my lymph glands after the flu jab and when I'm run down. I have CFS/ME though, and that's a common reaction amongst many, many other wierd symptoms. 

I have my first jab booked tomorrow afternoon, won't know which one it is until I get there though, depends on what they have been able to get that day. I'm expecting a strong reaction, given how I tend to react to the flu jab and how other folks with CFS/ME have reacted to it, so planning easy food and plenty of rest for a couple of days after it...


----------



## Obsidian

Babyshoes said:


> I also get swelling in my lymph glands after the flu jab and when I'm run down. I have CFS/ME though, and that's a common reaction amongst many, many other wierd symptoms.
> 
> I have my first jab booked tomorrow afternoon, won't know which one it is until I get there though, depends on what they have been able to get that day. I'm expecting a strong reaction, given how I tend to react to the flu jab and how other folks with CFS/ME have reacted to it, so planning easy food and plenty of rest for a couple of days after it...



Thats really interesting. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia years ago and one doctor suggested cfs also. Unfortunately, most doctors around here don't believe in either so its impossible to get any treatment.


----------



## Jersey Girl

The only reaction I seem to have had from the one dose vaccine given yesterday is a slightly sore arm but also a very strange sensation at the injection site. It’s like tiny muscle twitches that feel kind of like a tapping directly on the area where it was injected. Very strange. They were happening constantly yesterday but have lessened today. Anyone else feel something like this?


----------



## Booker

Well, I was Covid positive on Mar 4.  Quite shocked.  I've been so careful, wear a mask etc.  I am still recovering.  Have sinus congestion that just won't budge--and with that my sense of smell is pretty much non existent.  I do get a few breakthrough smells but not much (frustrating for a soap maker though!)  

But, I recognize that my problems are nothing to that of other people's suffering.  My grandfather actually passed from it, so I'm thankful that my complaints are so mild.  I actually feel more paranoid about giving it to other people than I was about catching it.  

With having it now, I am curious about the vaccine and what kind of reactions I may or may not have.


----------



## earlene

Booker said:


> Well, I was Covid positive on Mar 4.  Quite shocked.  I've been so careful, wear a mask etc.  I am still recovering.  Have sinus congestion that just won't budge--and with that my sense of smell is pretty much non existent.  I do get a few breakthrough smells but not much (frustrating for a soap maker though!)
> 
> But, I recognize that my problems are nothing to that of other people's suffering.  My grandfather actually passed from it, so I'm thankful that my complaints are so mild.  I actually feel more paranoid about giving it to other people than I was about catching it.
> 
> With having it now, I am curious about the vaccine and what kind of reactions I may or may not have.


If you haven't already, do take a look at the CDC guidance regarding when to take the vaccine after infection, or speak with your medical doctor if you have not as yet.  (*link* - skip to this section: *COVID-19 vaccination and SARS-CoV-2 infection*).

This article may help with your curiosity about what to expect:  Why vaccine side effects might be more common in people who've already had COVID-19


----------



## Booker

earlene said:


> If you haven't already, do take a look at the CDC guidance regarding when to take the vaccine after infection, or speak with your medical doctor if you have not as yet.  (*link* - skip to this section: *COVID-19 vaccination and SARS-CoV-2 infection*).
> 
> This article may help with your curiosity about what to expect:  Why vaccine side effects might be more common in people who've already had COVID-19


Thank you.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Booker said:


> Thank you.



I saw an interesting interview with a doctor on Dr Oz and he was saying they are studying and may recommend that people who have been infected already may only require one dose of the moderna or Pfizer as a booster to ensure their full immunity..That would also free up more vaccine for those who haven’t been infected.


----------



## Susie

Obsidian said:


> Thats really interesting. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia years ago and one doctor suggested cfs also. Unfortunately, most doctors around here don't believe in either so its impossible to get any treatment.



I've had fibro since 1999. I had many doctors over the years that didn't believe in it. Now, since there is an actual blood test that can prove fibro, I find many doctors no longer have sheer disbelief when I tell them I have it. If your doctor expresses disbelief, you need a new/younger doctor. 

I haven't found any effective treatment for it, but I still do my research just in case they do find something. My insurance doesn't classify the test as anything other than experimental, so it would be >$1000 to have it done.  I am appealing that as I want to be in on any studies in case they do find a treatment.


----------



## earlene

Susie said:


> I've had fibro since 1999. I had many doctors over the years that didn't believe in it. Now, since there is an actual blood test that can prove fibro, I find many doctors no longer have sheer disbelief when I tell them I have it. If your doctor expresses disbelief, you need a new/younger doctor.
> 
> I haven't found any effective treatment for it, but I still do my research just in case they do find something. My insurance doesn't classify the test as anything other than experimental, so it would be >$1000 to have it done.  I am appealing that as I want to be in on any studies in case they do find a treatment.


*Susie*, is it possible to find a clinical trial or study that will also perform the test as a part of the trial and therefore be free to you?

It is annoying how insurance companies limit and restrict, right?


----------



## Susie

earlene said:


> *Susie*, is it possible to find a clinical trial or study that will also perform the test as a part of the trial and therefore be free to you?
> 
> It is annoying how insurance companies limit and restrict, right?



I have tried over and over. I live in DFW, so we are a major metropolitan area. We have clinical trials all the time. I am signed up on multiple websites for clinical trials.


----------



## earlene

Good luck to you and I hope you find one, *Susie*.


----------



## Catscankim

Obsidian said:


> Thats really interesting. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia years ago and one doctor suggested cfs also. Unfortunately, most doctors around here don't believe in either so its impossible to get any treatment.



I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia a bunch of years ago. Peoples non-beliefs stem from not having an actual test to diagnose it other than a clinical evaluation, as well as tests to rule-out any kind of arthritis.

The Rheumatologist that I was seeing suggested taking Turmeric instead of prescribing pain pills, which I hate anyway.



Jersey Girl said:


> The only reaction I seem to have had from the one dose vaccine given yesterday is a slightly sore arm but also a very strange sensation at the injection site. It’s like tiny muscle twitches that feel kind of like a tapping directly on the area where it was injected. Very strange. They were happening constantly yesterday but have lessened today. Anyone else feel something like this?



I used to get that twitching when I would get my allergy shots when I was younger...right at the injection site. But it would only last about an hour or so. It's probably just a little reaction to your body not being happy about something foreign being introduced. Maybe try a benadryl?


----------



## Catscankim

Susie said:


> I've had fibro since 1999. I had many doctors over the years that didn't believe in it. Now, since there is an actual blood test that can prove fibro, I find many doctors no longer have sheer disbelief when I tell them I have it. If your doctor expresses disbelief, you need a new/younger doctor.
> 
> I haven't found any effective treatment for it, but I still do my research just in case they do find something. My insurance doesn't classify the test as anything other than experimental, so it would be >$1000 to have it done.  I am appealing that as I want to be in on any studies in case they do find a treatment.



Just did a quick research on the blood test (I didn't see your message prior to posting my last message), but from what I have seen, they test for low levels of cytokines in your blood. There is a link between the low levels across fibro pts. I think routine blood work would give you that result (??). 

I am definitely not disagreeing with you, maybe the site that I just looked at has old information. It has been a while since I did any research on fibro, or even seen a dr for it. Is there a name of the test, that you know of? I would be interested in it.


----------



## Jersey Girl

Catscankim said:


> I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia a bunch of years ago. Peoples non-beliefs stem from not having an actual test to diagnose it other than a clinical evaluation, as well as tests to rule-out any kind of arthritis.
> 
> The Rheumatologist that I was seeing suggested taking Turmeric instead of prescribing pain pills, which I hate anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> I used to get that twitching when I would get my allergy shots when I was younger...right at the injection site. But it would only last about an hour or so. It's probably just a little reaction to your body not being happy about something foreign being introduced. Maybe try a benadryl?



ok...good to know I’m not the only one. I tried to google it and couldn’t find a thing about it!  Lol. It lasted two days on and off but I’m on day three now and it seems to have stopped.


----------



## Sudds

Catscankim said:


> Just did a quick research on the blood test (I didn't see your message prior to posting my last message), but from what I have seen, they test for low levels of cytokines in your blood. There is a link between the low levels across fibro pts. I think routine blood work would give you that result (??).
> 
> I am definitely not disagreeing with you, maybe the site that I just looked at has old information. It has been a while since I did any research on fibro, or even seen a dr for it. Is there a name of the test, that you know of? I would be interested in it.


I just had pre-op blood work done so went and looked and there aren't any cytokines listed that they were looking for, so I don't think routine blood work is going to give you an answer. The routine stuff is lipids, glucose, red and white blood cell count, kidney functions, etc. Nothing out of the ordinary. I also have fibro, and my dr is very aware that it does exist, although there is nothing to help it either! I go to the 6th ranked hospital/teaching hospital in the country and where I used to go is the 2nd ranked hospital/teaching hospital so am pretty sure they would know if there was something that would give me relief. You can also try CBD oil for the pain. I use it for another problem and my gut dr. is now prescribing it to others because it works so well. Thank heavens I am getting an implant in May that should alleviate my problem entirely, Oh Happy Day!


----------



## Susie

Sudds said:


> I just had pre-op blood work done so went and looked and there aren't any cytokines listed that they were looking for, so I don't think routine blood work is going to give you an answer. The routine stuff is lipids, glucose, red and white blood cell count, kidney functions, etc. Nothing out of the ordinary. I also have fibro, and my dr is very aware that it does exist, although there is nothing to help it either! I go to the 6th ranked hospital/teaching hospital in the country and where I used to go is the 2nd ranked hospital/teaching hospital so am pretty sure they would know if there was something that would give me relief. You can also try CBD oil for the pain. I use it for another problem and my gut dr. is now prescribing it to others because it works so well. Thank heavens I am getting an implant in May that should alleviate my problem entirely, Oh Happy Day!



No, this is not going to be diagnosed with routine (or even non-routine, but covered by my insurance) blood tests. Home - FM/a
It is a genetic test.  I have tried CBD, Cymbalta, and Gabapentin. None of them really help fibro, although the Gabapentin helps with my neurogenic claudication. I will end up having surgery for this, but not until I am unable to walk standing up straight, as I am leery of any surgery involving my vertebrae and spinal cord.


----------



## Obsidian

Susie said:


> No, this is not going to be diagnosed with routine (or even non-routine, but covered by my insurance) blood tests. Home - FM/a
> It is a genetic test.  I have tried CBD, Cymbalta, and Gabapentin. None of them really help fibro, although the Gabapentin helps with my neurogenic claudication. I will end up having surgery for this, but not until I am unable to walk standing up straight, as I am leery of any surgery involving my vertebrae and spinal cord.



Lyrica is the only medication that helps fibro pain for me, it actually stopped all pain after just a couple doses. It was amazing but unfortunately, had side effects that wasn't worth it.


----------



## Susie

Obsidian said:


> Lyrica is the only medication that helps fibro pain for me, it actually stopped all pain after just a couple doses. It was amazing but unfortunately, had side effects that wasn't worth it.



Yep, I know all about those side effects. Not being able to sleep is a problem already, that just amped my insomnia into the cosmos.  Didn't sleep for 3 weeks after taking it for 3 days.


----------



## Obsidian

Susie said:


> Yep, I know all about those side effects. Not being able to sleep is a problem already, that just amped my insomnia into the cosmos.  Didn't sleep for 3 weeks after taking it for 3 days.



Ugg, I hate being a insomniac. Doc put me on seroquel and I'm actually sleeping full nights now. First time since I was 13.


----------



## Susie

Obsidian said:


> Ugg, I hate being a insomniac. Doc put me on seroquel and I'm actually sleeping full nights now. First time since I was 13.



I can't take Seroquel. One of the many drugs that cause absolutely no sleep whatsoever insomnia. I am on Lunesta. I get a consistent 6 ish hours/night until my body gets used to it and I have to go off of it a week. But I really sleep those 6 hours. Better sleep quality than I have ever had. And I am glad someone else started insomnia young. I can remember long nights awake starting when I was in first grade. I try to tell people that I have always had fibro because I can also remember not being comfortable leaning back on chairs because they hurt my back when I was that young also.


----------



## Booker

Jersey Girl said:


> I saw an interesting interview with a doctor on Dr Oz and he was saying they are studying and may recommend that people who have been infected already may only require one dose of the moderna or Pfizer as a booster to ensure their full immunity..That would also free up more vaccine for those who haven’t been infected.


Yes, that would be a good thing!  Thanks for the share.


----------



## Obsidian

Susie said:


> I can't take Seroquel. One of the many drugs that cause absolutely no sleep whatsoever insomnia. I am on Lunesta. I get a consistent 6 ish hours/night until my body gets used to it and I have to go off of it a week. But I really sleep those 6 hours. Better sleep quality than I have ever had. And I am glad someone else started insomnia young. I can remember long nights awake starting when I was in first grade. I try to tell people that I have always had fibro because I can also remember not being comfortable leaning back on chairs because they hurt my back when I was that young also.



I don't think I've ever tried Lunesta. Usually my drs want to use mind altering drugs to treat my depression and anxiety since they think thats where my insomnia steams from.
I'm just glad to find something that works, I was getting 2 hours sleep a night, now I'm getting 7-9

I can't remember if I had sleep issues as a small child but I do remember multiple trips to the dr for back pain when in grade school.


----------



## AliOop

Obsidian said:


> Usually my drs want to use mind altering drugs to treat my depression and anxiety since they think thats where my insomnia steams from.


I think the opposite is often true, don't you? I mean, sleep deprivation is used as a form of prisoner torture because it severely alters brain functioning.

My husband has several sleep disorders (including RBD) that dramatically impact my sleep, both in quality and quantity.  After just two bad nights in a row, I'm depressed, anxious, cranky, unreasonable, and unable to be satisfied with any amount of food, particularly sweets. When we get to that point, a couple nights of sleeping by myself in the spare bedroom works wonders.

All that to say, I think you are smart to focus on fixing the sleep issue first. So many things flow from that!


----------



## Susie

Doctors always want to start with mind altering drugs. They think all insomnia is from anxiety/depression/ADHD/bipolar/etc.  They ALWAYS try to give me those. I had completely given up on getting any treatment for the insomnia, but I hit a bad patch for months where my a-fib was waking me up routinely an hour after I got to sleep and about 4-5 times an hour thereafter. My diabetes became intractable, so no amount of insulin was helping. They HAD to do something. My doctor suggested all of the antidepressants before even discussing something strictly for sleep. She then asked about Ambien, but as it makes me sleepwalk and try to sleep drive, that is right out of the question. She finally suggested Lunesta, and it is wonderful.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

A natural alternative for insomnia is Melatonin, a hormone. Dr. Oz did a whole show about it. When I can't sleep, I take 1 mg and wake up feeling rested and I have no drug hangover. But I'm very sensitive to drugs, even "natural" supplements, so the minimum dosage available is what I take. Any more than that and I feel lethargic the next day.


----------



## Susie

I have tried so many different dosages of Melatonin over the years, the doctors have given up suggesting it. I have tried every OTC and Rx medication out there for insomnia.


----------



## KimW

Susie said:


> I have tried so many different dosages of Melatonin over the years, the doctors have given up suggesting it. I have tried every OTC and Rx medication out there for insomnia.


Valerian root?


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Susie said:


> I have tried so many different dosages of Melatonin over the years, the doctors have given up suggesting it. I have tried every OTC and Rx medication out there for insomnia.


Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that! A good night's sleep is so important for health -- mental, emotional, psychological and physical.   What about Yoga? Excercise in general? Think "10,000 Steps" Program. The last time I did that I slept like a log. It's good to be out and about in the fresh air and sunshine. (I think I need to take my own advice! )

Then there's always my Auntie's solution. When she got older, she had a shot of bourbon first thing in the morning, to _"Get her heart started"_ LOL and another one before bedtime.  She lived to be 105!!!


----------



## Mary M

I recommend a topical magnesium cream applied before bed. I had difficulty sleeping while going through Chemo. It was and it still the best option for me. My daughter has also used it for my grandson at age 3 while he was having night terrors. It is safe and has no side effects like I had with melatonin, cbd, or magnesium pills.


----------



## beckster51

Mary M said:


> I recommend a topical magnesium cream applied before bed. I had difficulty sleeping while going through Chemo. It was and it still the best option for me. My daughter has also used it for my grandson at age 3 while he was having night terrors. It is safe and has no side effects like I had with melatonin, cbd, or magnesium pills.


I am quite curious about topical magnesium cream.  Where do you get yours?  Where do you put it and how much?  The older I get, the less I sleep, and I can tell it is really affecting how I feel.


----------



## Mary M

A good nights sleep is crucial for me also, I’m 68 and we live with my daughter and her family. My grands keep me on my toes.  I began making my own 5 years ago after cancer treatment and still do. I apply approximately 1 tsp of the cream to the bottom each foot and put on a pair of light socks or apply on my tummy before bed. There are some good magnesium creams on the market. I use Anchient Minerals Magnesium flakes in my cream and recommend it for its quality.


----------



## linne1gi

Have you tried a weighted blanket?   I’ve been getting leg cramps that wake me in the middle of the night and the weighted blanket has been great.  It’s hot & I live in South Florida so I only put it at the bottom of the bed but it’s awesome.


----------



## beckster51

Mary M said:


> A good nights sleep is crucial for me also, I’m 68 and we live with my daughter and her family. My grands keep me on my toes.  I began making my own 5 years ago after cancer treatment and still do. I apply approximately 1 tsp of the cream to the bottom each foot and put on a pair of light socks or apply on my tummy before bed. There are some good magnesium creams on the market. I use Anchient Minerals Magnesium flakes in my cream and recommend it for its quality.


Thank you, Mary, for your quick reply.  I will have to try this.  I am pretty desperate for a good night's sleep.  I sleep about 4-5 hours if I am lucky most nights.  It really sucks the life out of you after a while.  I am not a good daytime napper, which just complicates the issue.


----------



## Mary M

You are very welcome. You can search out recipes to make your own online. I feel the less ingredients the better. Maybe even try a Magnesium spray. Good luck.


----------



## beckster51

linne1gi said:


> Have you tried a weighted blanket?   I’ve been getting leg cramps that wake me in the middle of the night and the weighted blanket has been great.  It’s hot & I live in South Florida so I only put it at the bottom of the bed but it’s awesome.


I will put this on my list to try, but it is hot where I live as well, so I don't know how well I would tolerate this, even at the bottom of the bed.  I have heard lots of folks say it works well for them.


----------



## earlene

Mary M said:


> I recommend a topical magnesium cream applied before bed. I had difficulty sleeping while going through Chemo. It was and it still the best option for me. My daughter has also used it for my grandson at age 3 while he was having night terrors. It is safe and has no side effects like I had with melatonin, cbd, or magnesium pills.


My husband uses a magnesium spray.  He says it helps when he has pain. I've never tried it.  I am not sure where he gets it, but here are a couple of links: 








						Pure Magnesium Oil Spray
					

We call it Nature’s Concentrate for a reason: Life-flo Pure Magnesium Oil is highly concentrated magnesium chloride, mined from the Netherlands’ ancient Zechstein Seabed, one of the world’s finest sources. Extracted from depths of 1600 to 2000 meters under the earth for unmatched purity, this...




					tinyurl.com
				







__





						NOW Foods, Magnesium Topical Spray, 8 fl oz (237 ml)
					






					tinyurl.com
				



The first one looks like the one my husband uses.


Melatonin is something I've been trying to work with lately.  10 mg is way to high a dosage for me, because it makes me really groggy the next day, so I am currently trying out 3 mg, because that's the dosage my husband had on hand.  

For me, not sleeping enough is more about getting to sleep too late.  I find it very difficult to sleep in, and it rarely ever happens.  Going back to sleep once I get up to use the bathroom around 5 am, is usually an impossibility no matter how tired I feel, so getting to sleep earlier is the key for me.

Sometimes I take benadryl at night when I have itchy eyes or other pollen-related symptoms because I know it will knock me out as well as treat the allergy symptoms, but it does make me feel groggy the morning, even if my FitBit tells me I get better quality sleep (more time asleep and less restlessness and less waking up during the night, as well as more time in the restorative stages of sleep). 

Meditation helps, but not in and of itself.  And reducing screen time at night just goes against my grain; I can't stick to a plan to turn off my TV or computer or mobile phone at 6 pm or even 8 pm.  That's about the time I start to really enjoy a movie or a TV series.  I prefer to be physically active in the morning and during the daylight hours, then relax in the evening with the TV.

And napping during the day is not something I do on a regular basis either.  Sometimes, but it's not a habit, and when I do, then it keeps me awake even later at night, so that's probably why I avoid daytime naps.


----------



## Tara_H

earlene said:


> reducing screen time at night just goes against my grain


Have you tried blue light filters?  I use an app on my phone called Night Screen which lets me turn it down much darker than the standard phone setting, and changes the colour tones to orange after sunset.  I found that helped a lot with my sleep quality since I'm tied to my phone pretty much constantly.  There's also similar things available for PC.


----------



## Ladka

earlene said:


> ...
> And napping during the day is not something I do on a regular basis either.  Sometimes, but it's not a habit, and when I do, then it keeps me awake even later at night, so that's probably why I avoid daytime naps.


I was the same, and then learned it is a prolonged "napping" that badly affects my night sleep. Now I practice "power nap" that does not exceed 30 minutes.


----------



## Daisy

earlene said:


> My husband uses a magnesium spray.  He says it helps when he has pain. I've never tried it.  I am not sure where he gets it, but here are a couple of links:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pure Magnesium Oil Spray
> 
> 
> We call it Nature’s Concentrate for a reason: Life-flo Pure Magnesium Oil is highly concentrated magnesium chloride, mined from the Netherlands’ ancient Zechstein Seabed, one of the world’s finest sources. Extracted from depths of 1600 to 2000 meters under the earth for unmatched purity, this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinyurl.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOW Foods, Magnesium Topical Spray, 8 fl oz (237 ml)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tinyurl.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first one looks like the one my husband uses.
> 
> 
> Melatonin is something I've been trying to work with lately.  10 mg is way to high a dosage for me, because it makes me really groggy the next day, so I am currently trying out 3 mg, because that's the dosage my husband had on hand.
> 
> For me, not sleeping enough is more about getting to sleep too late.  I find it very difficult to sleep in, and it rarely ever happens.  Going back to sleep once I get up to use the bathroom around 5 am, is usually an impossibility no matter how tired I feel, so getting to sleep earlier is the key for me.
> 
> Sometimes I take benadryl at night when I have itchy eyes or other pollen-related symptoms because I know it will knock me out as well as treat the allergy symptoms, but it does make me feel groggy the morning, even if my FitBit tells me I get better quality sleep (more time asleep and less restlessness and less waking up during the night, as well as more time in the restorative stages of sleep).
> 
> Meditation helps, but not in and of itself.  And reducing screen time at night just goes against my grain; I can't stick to a plan to turn off my TV or computer or mobile phone at 6 pm or even 8 pm.  That's about the time I start to really enjoy a movie or a TV series.  I prefer to be physically active in the morning and during the daylight hours, then relax in the evening with the TV.
> 
> And napping during the day is not something I do on a regular basis either.  Sometimes, but it's not a habit, and when I do, then it keeps me awake even later at night, so that's probably why I avoid daytime naps.



To add on:
Some people are very sensitive to coffee, tea, chocolate and many other foods, drinks and drugs that stimulate the nervous system.
Check your intake of these and then try this and see whether it will help; 

 Do not take caffeinated coffee/tea, hot chocolate and bars or cocoa after midday. 
People have been surprised that such a simple change helps them sleep better. 
This is not medical advice;
For some people, non-drowsy antihistamines and Vitamin B complex interfere with sleep.
Discuss with your Doctor.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Daisy said:


> Do not take caffeinated coffee/tea, hot chocolate and bars or cocoa after midday.


Add soda pop to that list -- like Coca Cola, Diet Coke, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, etc.

@earlene: I bite off 1/3rd of a 3mg Melatonin tablet when I'm having trouble sleeping. It usually is 20 minutes before taking effect. I wake up feeling refreshed and no drug hangover during the day. I also take the same amount during the day if I'm nervous or stressed out.


----------



## beckster51

@earlene:  The melatonin I buy is a 3 mg. tablet that is rounded.  If yours is as well, just put both of your thumbs on either side of the tablet, apply pressure, and it should break into 2 equal halves.  I take 1.5 mg. of melatonin every night for various reasons.  It is the dose that does not give me a hangover.  Melatonin does many things, and I don't particularly take it for sleep.  It is a hormone and regulates many things in the body like regulation of mood, learning and memory, immune activity, and dreaming.  *Melatonin* is also an effective antioxidant.  Older folks have severely declining levels, so I take it to offset the deficit.  Life extension researchers recommend that older people take it to improve their health.


----------



## earlene

I had my pre-op CoVid test yesterday.  Should know the result tomorrow morning, which I expect will be negative, of course; I'd be very surprised if it turned out positive.   If I do test positive, it won't be from the my vaccination as the Covid-19 PCR test specifically looks for genetic virus material, none of which the mRNA vaccines include.

At this point, (one month after our second vaccination injections), Hubby & I are both considered 'fully vaccinated' so we're both feeling pretty well protected as long as we continue following stringent mitigation procedures.  The B-117 and other possible variants that may turn up in the meanwhile until the nation and the majority of the global population is also fully vaccinated, are keeping us extremely cautious.  We still don't know how this will turn out.

My closest family members will all have reached 'fully vaccinated' within the next 60 days, with me & my sibs all done already.

Older son gets his second vaccination injection on Thursday. Granddaughter & younger son are getting their first doses on Friday & Saturday, respectively, so I expect I should feel safe to travel to Texas to visit them again in late possibly in June. I was going to go this month, but expect minimal use of my dominant hand AND a lot of occupational therapy before I regain full use of my hand, so visiting this month or even early May seems rather out-of-the-question, even without the rising CoVid cases, particularly of the B-117 variant in their part of the state.

Of course all this does exacerbate the sleep problems I've been having, I am sure.  In spite of an attitude that worrying about stuff out of my control is useless, it doesn't stop the mind from being effected.  



Tara_H said:


> Have you tried blue light filters?  I use an app on my phone called Night Screen which lets me turn it down much darker than the standard phone setting, and changes the colour tones to orange after sunset.  I found that helped a lot with my sleep quality since I'm tied to my phone pretty much constantly.  There's also similar things available for PC.



Yes, on my phone.  Not on my computer, though.  And the TV we are now using is as is (it has no setting for blue light filtering - hopefully the next one will.)

This morning, I turned on the Night Light feature on my laptop to filter out blue light, more for eye strain issues & retina protection, than for sleep, but if it helps, all the better!  

Even when blue light is filtered, I believe that brain stimulation caused by action movies or stimulating internet reading or compulsive web browsing are just as likely to keep me up as the blue light issue, but perhaps I would fall asleep sooner if the blue light was filtered out. I'll keep an eye on it. 



Ladka said:


> I was the same, and then learned it is a prolonged "napping" that badly affects my night sleep. Now I practice "power nap" that does not exceed 30 minutes.


I do power nap when traveling, and have done for at least 2 decades or more.  It's fairly easy to do power naps sitting in my car at a rest area, partly because even though I do have a timer, I usually can't sleep longer than 20 minutes sitting up in a car.   Quite effective to regenerate and prevents me from falling asleep at the wheel.  But I've never tried it at home, basically because I don't like using an alarm at home, and I just have never wanted to schedule a nap except while traveling.  Except when I should take a nap and try because I had a bad night, and then that's when I can't fall asleep during the day.

But it is a good idea and I know it works because it is what I do when I drive long distances.  Maybe I'll give this a try if the other things I'm trying don't pan out.



Daisy said:


> To add on:
> Some people are very sensitive to coffee, tea, chocolate and many other foods, drinks and drugs that stimulate the nervous system.
> Check your intake of these and then try this and see whether it will help;
> 
> Do not take caffeinated coffee/tea, hot chocolate and bars or cocoa after midday.
> People have been surprised that such a simple change helps them sleep better.
> This is not medical advice;
> For some people, non-drowsy antihistamines and Vitamin B complex interfere with sleep.
> Discuss with your Doctor.



Years and years ago, I cut caffeine to a maximum of two cups of tea per day & only in the early morning.  Only extremely rarely do I ever drink tea after noon, and if I do, it's usually at the end of a day of driving and generally de-caf or chamomile tea.  I do not eat chocolate or drink cocoa because when I do, I always get pimples in the worst places. Other than a rare occasion, I just don't consume foods that contain caffeine unless I have a persistent headache that won't quit, then my HA (headache) pill includes caffeine.  I don't drink soda pop (grew up not drinking it because this is how I was raised) and I don't drink alcoholic beverages, nor do I drink sweet drinks or fruit juices.  I don't even drink orange juice (I don't really like it.) Really other than 2 cups of tea in the morning, all I drink all day is water, plain, filtered water and once in awhile I'll buy a quart of buttermilk and drink about 3 ounces to ward off hunger.  So that's about it for beverages for me.

My physician has me taking methyl B12 + folate, which could be a real culprit here.  I've decided to try a couple of weeks without it and see what kind difference that makes.  My blood levels for B12 were high the last time they were done, so it's not like I've been deficient, in spite of the fact that I do not eat meat.  

It is true that my evening meals (eaten around 4:30 or 5 pm usually, several hours before I normally go to sleep) do often contain stimulant ingredients, like spiciness, various vitamins, fats, salt, pepper, whatever.  I don't eat many sweets regularly because I tend to prefer savory to sweet.  Although I could cut out the ice cream bar I've been adding as an after-dinner desert (but again, this is really early in the evening because Hubby goes to bed around 6 pm or earlier, so it's pretty much before his bedtime, but long before mine.)

Perhaps I could start a new evening snack routine and add some things that are supposed to help with sleep like rice, garbanzo, edamame, hummus, bananas, pumpkin seeds, a Brazil nut (I used to eat one per day, but haven't done that in a long time; perhaps it's time to go buy some more), green leafies, yogurt, maybe an egg (for the tryptophan) once in awhile, but I can only tolerate so many eggs, and certainly not on a daily basis.

I might see if I can do that in the evenings.  I used to take 5-HTP, but I ran out while away last year & didn't buy more (I was trying to cut down on pills pills and just forgot about them).  Last night, though,  I ordered more 5-HTP with L-tryptophan supplements. Both support serotonin & melatonin production, so I'll go back to taking those.  I was trying to cut down on supplements, but perhaps these are pretty important ones right now, and probably cut out the melatonin since it doesn't seem to be working as positively as I was hoping.

Another possibility is to talk to my physician about changing out my cholesterol med for a water-soluble instead of the fat-soluble one I now take, which does interfere with sleep for some people.  Although the sleeping issue is not new to since I started on simvastatin, so I am not sure that one matters.  But I will keep it in mind for future discussion.

Anyway, you have given me food for thought, *Daisy*, that has helped me re-think my supplements and what to add as an evening snack. I'll try those and see how it goes. I did buy buttermilk yesterday, and although it does contain butter fat, at least its milk so I had a small glassful in the evening to encourage serotonin production. I had already taken my 3mg melatonin. I did get to sleep much earlier than usual, but also awoke too early, so still didn't get enough sleep and the quality was down (very restless during the night.)

Additionally, I've been tracking my quality of sleep with melatonin, and so far, it's not looking favorable.  But other factors may be at play, so I'll keep tracking for a little longer with those in mind as well, before ruling it out.



beckster51 said:


> @earlene:  The melatonin I buy is a 3 mg. tablet that is rounded.  If yours is as well, just put both of your thumbs on either side of the tablet, apply pressure, and it should break into 2 equal halves.  I take 1.5 mg. of melatonin every night for various reasons.  It is the dose that does not give me a hangover.  Melatonin does many things, and I don't particularly take it for sleep.  It is a hormone and regulates many things in the body like regulation of mood, learning and memory, immune activity, and dreaming.  *Melatonin* is also an effective antioxidant.  Older folks have severely declining levels, so I take it to offset the deficit.  Life extension researchers recommend that older people take it to improve their health.


I have a pill cutter.  My aged fingers couldn't break a pill in two if my life depended on it.  Plus I am having hand surgery tomorrow & won't have full use of my dominant hand, particularly my thumb for about 6-8 weeks.  Even prior to surgery I haven't had full use of my right thumb in years, certainly not enough to break a pill in half with use of two thumbs.  I assume when you say it breaks evenly, that your tablets are scored?  Mine are not.  Not all pills are scored, and I've rarely seen supplements scored.  Scoring of tablets is useful for breaking in half using a pill cutter, but not essential.  Yet even with a pill cutter, I don't always get an even cut, so _you must have magical thumbs_!


----------



## Daisy

earlene said:


> I had my pre-op CoVid test yesterday.  Should know the result tomorrow morning, which I expect will be negative, of course; I'd be very surprised if it turned out positive.   If I do test positive, it won't be from the my vaccination as the Covid-19 PCR test specifically looks for genetic virus material, none of which the mRNA vaccines include.
> 
> At this point, (one month after our second vaccination injections), Hubby & I are both considered 'fully vaccinated' so we're both feeling pretty well protected as long as we continue following stringent mitigation procedures.  The B-117 and other possible variants that may turn up in the meanwhile until the nation and the majority of the global population is also fully vaccinated, are keeping us extremely cautious.  We still don't know how this will turn out.
> 
> My closest family members will all have reached 'fully vaccinated' within the next 60 days, with me & my sibs all done already.
> 
> Older son gets his second vaccination injection on Thursday. Granddaughter & younger son are getting their first doses on Friday & Saturday, respectively, so I expect I should feel safe to travel to Texas to visit them again in late possibly in June. I was going to go this month, but expect minimal use of my dominant hand AND a lot of occupational therapy before I regain full use of my hand, so visiting this month or even early May seems rather out-of-the-question, even without the rising CoVid cases, particularly of the B-117 variant in their part of the state.
> 
> Of course all this does exacerbate the sleep problems I've been having, I am sure.  In spite of an attitude that worrying about stuff out of my control is useless, it doesn't stop the mind from being effected.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, on my phone.  Not on my computer, though.  And the TV we are now using is as is (it has no setting for blue light filtering - hopefully the next one will.)
> 
> This morning, I turned on the Night Light feature on my laptop to filter out blue light, more for eye strain issues & retina protection, than for sleep, but if it helps, all the better!
> 
> Even when blue light is filtered, I believe that brain stimulation caused by action movies or stimulating internet reading or compulsive web browsing are just as likely to keep me up as the blue light issue, but perhaps I would fall asleep sooner if the blue light was filtered out. I'll keep an eye on it.
> 
> 
> I do power nap when traveling, and have done for at least 2 decades or more.  It's fairly easy to do power naps sitting in my car at a rest area, partly because even though I do have a timer, I usually can't sleep longer than 20 minutes sitting up in a car.   Quite effective to regenerate and prevents me from falling asleep at the wheel.  But I've never tried it at home, basically because I don't like using an alarm at home, and I just have never wanted to schedule a nap except while traveling.  Except when I should take a nap and try because I had a bad night, and then that's when I can't fall asleep during the day.
> 
> But it is a good idea and I know it works because it is what I do when I drive long distances.  Maybe I'll give this a try if the other things I'm trying don't pan out.
> 
> 
> 
> Years and years ago, I cut caffeine to a maximum of two cups of tea per day & only in the early morning.  Only extremely rarely do I ever drink tea after noon, and if I do, it's usually at the end of a day of driving and generally de-caf or chamomile tea.  I do not eat chocolate or drink cocoa because when I do, I always get pimples in the worst places. Other than a rare occasion, I just don't consume foods that contain caffeine unless I have a persistent headache that won't quit, then my HA (headache) pill includes caffeine.  I don't drink soda pop (grew up not drinking it because this is how I was raised) and I don't drink alcoholic beverages, nor do I drink sweet drinks or fruit juices.  I don't even drink orange juice (I don't really like it.) Really other than 2 cups of tea in the morning, all I drink all day is water, plain, filtered water and once in awhile I'll buy a quart of buttermilk and drink about 3 ounces to ward off hunger.  So that's about it for beverages for me.
> 
> My physician has me taking methyl B12 + folate, which could be a real culprit here.  I've decided to try a couple of weeks without it and see what kind difference that makes.  My blood levels for B12 were high the last time they were done, so it's not like I've been deficient, in spite of the fact that I do not eat meat.
> 
> It is true that my evening meals (eaten around 4:30 or 5 pm usually, several hours before I normally go to sleep) do often contain stimulant ingredients, like spiciness, various vitamins, fats, salt, pepper, whatever.  I don't eat many sweets regularly because I tend to prefer savory to sweet.  Although I could cut out the ice cream bar I've been adding as an after-dinner desert (but again, this is really early in the evening because Hubby goes to bed around 6 pm or earlier, so it's pretty much before his bedtime, but long before mine.)
> 
> Perhaps I could start a new evening snack routine and add some things that are supposed to help with sleep like rice, garbanzo, edamame, hummus, bananas, pumpkin seeds, a Brazil nut (I used to eat one per day, but haven't done that in a long time; perhaps it's time to go buy some more), green leafies, yogurt, maybe an egg (for the tryptophan) once in awhile, but I can only tolerate so many eggs, and certainly not on a daily basis.
> 
> I might see if I can do that in the evenings.  I used to take 5-HTP, but I ran out while away last year & didn't buy more (I was trying to cut down on pills pills and just forgot about them).  Last night, though,  I ordered more 5-HTP with L-tryptophan supplements. Both support serotonin & melatonin production, so I'll go back to taking those.  I was trying to cut down on supplements, but perhaps these are pretty important ones right now, and probably cut out the melatonin since it doesn't seem to be working as positively as I was hoping.
> 
> Another possibility is to talk to my physician about changing out my cholesterol med for a water-soluble instead of the fat-soluble one I now take, which does interfere with sleep for some people.  Although the sleeping issue is not new to since I started on simvastatin, so I am not sure that one matters.  But I will keep it in mind for future discussion.
> 
> Anyway, you have given me food for thought, *Daisy*, that has helped me re-think my supplements and what to add as an evening snack. I'll try those and see how it goes. I did buy buttermilk yesterday, and although it does contain butter fat, at least its milk so I had a small glassful in the evening to encourage serotonin production. I had already taken my 3mg melatonin. I did get to sleep much earlier than usual, but also awoke too early, so still didn't get enough sleep and the quality was down (very restless during the night.)
> 
> Additionally, I've been tracking my quality of sleep with melatonin, and so far, it's not looking favorable.  But other factors may be at play, so I'll keep tracking for a little longer with those in mind as well, before ruling it out.
> 
> 
> I have a pill cutter.  My aged fingers couldn't break a pill in two if my life depended on it.  Plus I am having hand surgery tomorrow & won't have full use of my dominant hand, particularly my thumb for about 6-8 weeks.  Even prior to surgery I haven't had full use of my right thumb in years, certainly not enough to break a pill in half with use of two thumbs.  I assume when you say it breaks evenly, that your tablets are scored?  Mine are not.  Not all pills are scored, and I've rarely seen supplements scored.  Scoring of tablets is useful for breaking in half using a pill cutter, but not essential.  Yet even with a pill cutter, I don't always get an even cut, so _you must have magical thumbs_!



Best wishes Earlene as you figure it out
However, Some supplements are brutal to the liver and kidneys if taken for a long time.
Talk to your doctor before you weed out old (if prescribed) or add on new.


----------



## earlene

Daisy said:


> Best wishes Earlene as you figure it out
> However, Some supplements are brutal to the liver and kidneys if taken for a long time.
> Talk to your doctor before you weed out old (if prescribed) or add on new.



Of course.  I am a retired RN; talking to my doctor is instilled in my psyche.  And so is knowledge & on-going education regarding contraindications & interactions for or between meds (in any form), vitamins, supplements, herbals, etc, and I do diligent research whether or not it is prescribed.  I am never empty-handed when I have a medical appointment; I always have a list of what needs to be addressed/clarified/etc.  I have always been an advocate for the patient, whether it is me, my family or anyone else for whom I share interest.  So I do my homework before any conversations with my docs (and afterward, as well, when something new is prescribed - I'm not one of those 'oh the doctor prescribed it, so I have full faith' types - I've seen doctors make prescribing errors, as I am sure any nurse who has worked with them has.  (Everyone makes mistakes; not bashing doctors.)

In addition to that, my pharmacist and my Insurance company flag possible interactions whenever there is a change to my prescriptions and also every time a medication is renewed. The number of professionals looking at my medical stuff is remarkable.

And of course liver & kidneys are important considerations, particularly at my age and with (or without) my particular history.

But thank you for the precautions.  You would have no way of knowing my medical background.


----------



## beckster51

earlene said:


> I had my pre-op CoVid test yesterday.  Should know the result tomorrow morning, which I expect will be negative, of course; I'd be very surprised if it turned out positive.   If I do test positive, it won't be from the my vaccination as the Covid-19 PCR test specifically looks for genetic virus material, none of which the mRNA vaccines include.
> 
> At this point, (one month after our second vaccination injections), Hubby & I are both considered 'fully vaccinated' so we're both feeling pretty well protected as long as we continue following stringent mitigation procedures.  The B-117 and other possible variants that may turn up in the meanwhile until the nation and the majority of the global population is also fully vaccinated, are keeping us extremely cautious.  We still don't know how this will turn out.
> 
> My closest family members will all have reached 'fully vaccinated' within the next 60 days, with me & my sibs all done already.
> 
> Older son gets his second vaccination injection on Thursday. Granddaughter & younger son are getting their first doses on Friday & Saturday, respectively, so I expect I should feel safe to travel to Texas to visit them again in late possibly in June. I was going to go this month, but expect minimal use of my dominant hand AND a lot of occupational therapy before I regain full use of my hand, so visiting this month or even early May seems rather out-of-the-question, even without the rising CoVid cases, particularly of the B-117 variant in their part of the state.
> 
> Of course all this does exacerbate the sleep problems I've been having, I am sure.  In spite of an attitude that worrying about stuff out of my control is useless, it doesn't stop the mind from being effected.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, on my phone.  Not on my computer, though.  And the TV we are now using is as is (it has no setting for blue light filtering - hopefully the next one will.)
> 
> This morning, I turned on the Night Light feature on my laptop to filter out blue light, more for eye strain issues & retina protection, than for sleep, but if it helps, all the better!
> 
> Even when blue light is filtered, I believe that brain stimulation caused by action movies or stimulating internet reading or compulsive web browsing are just as likely to keep me up as the blue light issue, but perhaps I would fall asleep sooner if the blue light was filtered out. I'll keep an eye on it.
> 
> 
> I do power nap when traveling, and have done for at least 2 decades or more.  It's fairly easy to do power naps sitting in my car at a rest area, partly because even though I do have a timer, I usually can't sleep longer than 20 minutes sitting up in a car.   Quite effective to regenerate and prevents me from falling asleep at the wheel.  But I've never tried it at home, basically because I don't like using an alarm at home, and I just have never wanted to schedule a nap except while traveling.  Except when I should take a nap and try because I had a bad night, and then that's when I can't fall asleep during the day.
> 
> But it is a good idea and I know it works because it is what I do when I drive long distances.  Maybe I'll give this a try if the other things I'm trying don't pan out.
> 
> 
> 
> Years and years ago, I cut caffeine to a maximum of two cups of tea per day & only in the early morning.  Only extremely rarely do I ever drink tea after noon, and if I do, it's usually at the end of a day of driving and generally de-caf or chamomile tea.  I do not eat chocolate or drink cocoa because when I do, I always get pimples in the worst places. Other than a rare occasion, I just don't consume foods that contain caffeine unless I have a persistent headache that won't quit, then my HA (headache) pill includes caffeine.  I don't drink soda pop (grew up not drinking it because this is how I was raised) and I don't drink alcoholic beverages, nor do I drink sweet drinks or fruit juices.  I don't even drink orange juice (I don't really like it.) Really other than 2 cups of tea in the morning, all I drink all day is water, plain, filtered water and once in awhile I'll buy a quart of buttermilk and drink about 3 ounces to ward off hunger.  So that's about it for beverages for me.
> 
> My physician has me taking methyl B12 + folate, which could be a real culprit here.  I've decided to try a couple of weeks without it and see what kind difference that makes.  My blood levels for B12 were high the last time they were done, so it's not like I've been deficient, in spite of the fact that I do not eat meat.
> 
> It is true that my evening meals (eaten around 4:30 or 5 pm usually, several hours before I normally go to sleep) do often contain stimulant ingredients, like spiciness, various vitamins, fats, salt, pepper, whatever.  I don't eat many sweets regularly because I tend to prefer savory to sweet.  Although I could cut out the ice cream bar I've been adding as an after-dinner desert (but again, this is really early in the evening because Hubby goes to bed around 6 pm or earlier, so it's pretty much before his bedtime, but long before mine.)
> 
> Perhaps I could start a new evening snack routine and add some things that are supposed to help with sleep like rice, garbanzo, edamame, hummus, bananas, pumpkin seeds, a Brazil nut (I used to eat one per day, but haven't done that in a long time; perhaps it's time to go buy some more), green leafies, yogurt, maybe an egg (for the tryptophan) once in awhile, but I can only tolerate so many eggs, and certainly not on a daily basis.
> 
> I might see if I can do that in the evenings.  I used to take 5-HTP, but I ran out while away last year & didn't buy more (I was trying to cut down on pills pills and just forgot about them).  Last night, though,  I ordered more 5-HTP with L-tryptophan supplements. Both support serotonin & melatonin production, so I'll go back to taking those.  I was trying to cut down on supplements, but perhaps these are pretty important ones right now, and probably cut out the melatonin since it doesn't seem to be working as positively as I was hoping.
> 
> Another possibility is to talk to my physician about changing out my cholesterol med for a water-soluble instead of the fat-soluble one I now take, which does interfere with sleep for some people.  Although the sleeping issue is not new to since I started on simvastatin, so I am not sure that one matters.  But I will keep it in mind for future discussion.
> 
> Anyway, you have given me food for thought, *Daisy*, that has helped me re-think my supplements and what to add as an evening snack. I'll try those and see how it goes. I did buy buttermilk yesterday, and although it does contain butter fat, at least its milk so I had a small glassful in the evening to encourage serotonin production. I had already taken my 3mg melatonin. I did get to sleep much earlier than usual, but also awoke too early, so still didn't get enough sleep and the quality was down (very restless during the night.)
> 
> Additionally, I've been tracking my quality of sleep with melatonin, and so far, it's not looking favorable.  But other factors may be at play, so I'll keep tracking for a little longer with those in mind as well, before ruling it out.
> 
> 
> I have a pill cutter.  My aged fingers couldn't break a pill in two if my life depended on it.  Plus I am having hand surgery tomorrow & won't have full use of my dominant hand, particularly my thumb for about 6-8 weeks.  Even prior to surgery I haven't had full use of my right thumb in years, certainly not enough to break a pill in half with use of two thumbs.  I assume when you say it breaks evenly, that your tablets are scored?  Mine are not.  Not all pills are scored, and I've rarely seen supplements scored.  Scoring of tablets is useful for breaking in half using a pill cutter, but not essential.  Yet even with a pill cutter, I don't always get an even cut, so _you must have magical thumbs_!


No magical thumbs here.  Just 70 year old ones.  I was shown this trick by my physician husband, and you would be amazed how easy it is.  If the tablet is rounded and placed on a hard surface, 2 fingers is all it takes to break most of them in half.  The trick is magic, not my fingers.  I have a pill cutter as well, and I am a retired RN, but for the life of me, I have never found a pill cutter that works for me.  All my cut pills come out unevenly cut.  Best of luck with all your medical adventures, Earlene.  Have your husband perform the magical pill trick.


----------



## Daisy

earlene said:


> Of course.  I am a retired RN; talking to my doctor is instilled in my psyche.  And so is knowledge & on-going education regarding contraindications & interactions for or between meds (in any form), vitamins, supplements, herbals, etc, and I do diligent research whether or not it is prescribed.  I am never empty-handed when I have a medical appointment; I always have a list of what needs to be addressed/clarified/etc.  I have always been an advocate for the patient, whether it is me, my family or anyone else for whom I share interest.  So I do my homework before any conversations with my docs (and afterward, as well, when something new is prescribed - I'm not one of those 'oh the doctor prescribed it, so I have full faith' types - I've seen doctors make prescribing errors, as I am sure any nurse who has worked with them has.  (Everyone makes mistakes; not bashing doctors.)
> 
> In addition to that, my pharmacist and my Insurance company flag possible interactions whenever there is a change to my prescriptions and also every time a medication is renewed. The number of professionals looking at my medical stuff is remarkable.
> 
> And of course liver & kidneys are important considerations, particularly at my age and with (or without) my particular history.
> 
> But thank you for the precautions.  You would have no way of knowing my medical background.



Oops! Preaching to the choir
I am glad you've taken it positively.
We learn from each other.  I have learnt a number things from your threads.

Like now, you've posted more things to consider. Education is never wasted!
Cheers!


----------



## BattleGnome

linne1gi said:


> It’s hot & I live in South Florida so I only put it at the bottom of the bed but it’s awesome.



one of my weighted blankets (I have 2 of different sizes and weights) has a “keep cool” lining on one side. I can’t vouch for how well it works yet, as I live in the frozen north and bought the blanket in December. It does feel physically cooler than other blankets, so maybe it’s an option


----------



## earlene

beckster51 said:


> Have your husband perform the magical pill trick.



I'll ask him, but his fingers are huge.  It makes me laugh just to think of him trying to do that.  So round, but not scored? Mine are round but flattish, as opposed to round and longish.  As in this vs this vs this:







Mine are like picture #1, but they are actually quite tiny.  Even my thumbs next to the edges of them look very very big.



BattleGnome said:


> one of my weighted blankets (I have 2 of different sizes and weights) has a “keep cool” lining on one side. I can’t vouch for how well it works yet, as I live in the frozen north and bought the blanket in December. It does feel physically cooler than other blankets, so maybe it’s an option




I have wondered about 'weighted blankets' which seem to be quite a trend these day.  DPS blankets or Gravity blankets have been used in therapeutic settings, but studies to show their efficacy in treating sleep disorders is minimal and inconclusive at best.  Studies performed without control groups or conducted by blanket manufacturers are suspect as are studies performed without appropriate scientific criteria (which includes a control group), so the bottom line right now is there isn't enough evidence that weighted blankets are a useful tool to treat insomnia and other seep disorders.

Additionally, some published studies claim that weighted blankets are safe, which makes no sense at all. Any report or study that blatantly claims the item being studied is safe without any cautions whatsoever, is always going to be suspect. Weighted blankets are not safe in all situations or cases.  There have been 2 deaths associated with the use of weighted blankets in children and there are cautions for people with chronic respiratory disorders use of them, therefore the claim of absolute safety is absurd. (links: Weighted Blanket Use: A Systematic Review - PubMed   and   Weighted Blankets: How They Work)

In any case, I have thought it would be interesting to try one, but I doubt I will unless someone in my family whom I go visit at some point has one & I try it while visiting.  As a child, I recall piles upon piles of quilts weighing me down when visiting my grandparents; if I really want to pile on the weight while sleeping, I could do it with the blankets I already own.


----------



## beckster51

earlene said:


> I'll ask him, but his fingers are huge.  It makes me laugh just to think of him trying to do that.  So round, but not scored? Mine are round but flattish, as opposed to round and longish.  As in this vs this vs this:
> 
> View attachment 55853
> View attachment 55855
> View attachment 55856
> 
> 
> Mine are like picture #1, but they are actually quite tiny.  Even my thumbs next to the edges of them look very very big.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have wondered about 'weighted blankets' which seem to be quite a trend these day.  DPS blankets or Gravity blankets have been used in therapeutic settings, but studies to show their efficacy in treating sleep disorders is minimal and inconclusive at best.  Studies performed without control groups or conducted by blanket manufacturers are suspect as are studies performed without appropriate scientific criteria (which includes a control group), so the bottom line right now is there isn't enough evidence that weighted blankets are a useful tool to treat insomnia and other seep disorders.
> 
> Additionally, some published studies claim that weighted blankets are safe, which makes no sense at all. Any report or study that blatantly claims the item being studied is safe without any cautions whatsoever, is always going to be suspect. Weighted blankets are not safe in all situations or cases.  There have been 2 deaths associated with the use of weighted blankets in children and there are cautions for people with chronic respiratory disorders use of them, therefore the claim of absolute safety is absurd. (links: Weighted Blanket Use: A Systematic Review - PubMed   and   Weighted Blankets: How They Work)
> 
> In any case, I have thought it would be interesting to try one, but I doubt I will unless someone in my family whom I go visit at some point has one & I try it while visiting.  As a child, I recall piles upon piles of quilts weighing me down when visiting my grandparents; if I really want to pile on the weight while sleeping, I could do it with the blankets I already own.


UH OH!  I guess I haven't communicated well, Earlene.  They cannot lie flat against the surface that they are sitting on.  They have to be rounded (convex) on their surface area, not in circumference.  Does that make sense?  That is why it works so well.  The pressure applied to each end causes the pills to snap in the middle.


----------



## earlene

beckster51 said:


> UH OH!  I guess I haven't communicated well, Earlene.  They cannot lie flat against the surface that they are sitting on.  They have to be rounded (convex) on their surface area, not in circumference.  Does that make sense?  That is why it works so well.  The pressure applied to each end causes the pills to snap in the middle.


I see what you mean.  they are too tiny for that, but they do break quite well in my pill cutter.  I switched to 1/2 tab at night for the past few nights & now I don't get that grogginess.


----------



## earlene

My mandatory pre-op CoVid test was negative, as anticipated.  

My thumb joint may have had some bone removed, but I don't know for sure, since I don't remember talking to my surgeon post-op.  Pre-op he said he might need to take a bit (a Wedge of bone) out.  Post-op he talked to Hubby, but either he didn't say much or Hubby didn't really comprehend all of it; could be either.  My pinky finger has stitches, I think, because it seemed like I could feel them yesterday when I moved the finger too much (I'm not sure how, maybe a reflex attempt to bend it when trying to exercise the adjacent fingers.)

My thumb, wrist & forearm are in a partial plaster cast with a partial soft cast, the finger is bandaged in gauze, then all of that & my hand is wrapped in a kind of cotton-wool & an ACE-type  wrap.  Hot, itchy, uncomfortable and it's only been 2 days.  Two of my non-surgical fingers are bruised, but that seems to be diminishing.  All look puffy this morning.  Time to elevate & ice again.  It's hard to elevate while sleeping; I do prior to sleeping, but the body does, what the body does, once asleep.

I realized when I awoke in recovery that I really wish I had trimmed all my fingernails prior to sugery.  I won't be able to manage that at all for at least 2 months, I think.  Not only will it be impossible without my dominant thumb, it will be to painful even if someone else does it for me.  I guess I can only hope they don't break.  I won't be able to file them either!



Cutting jalapenos  because I must persist.

Time for my pain pill, elevation & ice...


----------



## linne1gi

earlene said:


> My mandatory pre-op CoVid test was negative, as anticipated.
> 
> My thumb joint may have had some bone removed, but I don't know for sure, since I don't remember talking to my surgeon post-op.  Pre-op he said he might need to take a bit (a Wedge of bone) out.  Post-op he talked to Hubby, but either he didn't say much or Hubby didn't really comprehend all of it; could be either.  My pinky finger has stitches, I think, because it seemed like I could feel them yesterday when I moved the finger too much (I'm not sure how, maybe a reflex attempt to bend it when trying to exercise the adjacent fingers.)
> 
> My thumb, wrist & forearm are in a partial plaster cast with a partial soft cast, the finger is bandaged in gauze, then all of that & my hand is wrapped in a kind of cotton-wool & an ACE-type  wrap.  Hot, itchy, uncomfortable and it's only been 2 days.  Two of my non-surgical fingers are bruised, but that seems to be diminishing.  All look puffy this morning.  Time to elevate & ice again.  It's hard to elevate while sleeping; I do prior to sleeping, but the body does, what the body does, once asleep.
> 
> I realized when I awoke in recovery that I really wish I had trimmed all my fingernails prior to sugery.  I won't be able to manage that at all for at least 2 months, I think.  Not only will it be impossible without my dominant thumb, it will be to painful even if someone else does it for me.  I guess I can only hope they don't break.  I won't be able to file them either!
> 
> View attachment 55916
> 
> Cutting jalapenos  because I must persist.
> 
> Time for my pain pill, elevation & ice...


Hang in there, it’ll get better. I hope your recovery goes well.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

earlene said:


> Time for my pain pill, elevation & ice...


FWIW, Vitamin C is the "healing vitamin". 
Whenever I have surgery on the horizon, I take 
1000 IU vitamin C 3 X a day, with meals...
for 3 days before the procedure and 
for 1 week after the procedure. That's all.
It sounds like an excessive amount but the body takes what it needs and flushes the rest in the form of pretty bright yellow pee. LOL If you try this, you and your surgeon will be amazed at the amount of healing that takes place in a short amount of time.

I did this recently when I had a growth removed from my eyelid. The worst part was the needle injected to deaden the pain prior to the surgeon taking a scalpel and deftly lopping off the mass. Biopsy was negative. It's been five weeks now. The open wound is completely closed (without stitches) and I can barely see the scar.


----------



## KimW

earlene said:


> My mandatory pre-op CoVid test was negative, as anticipated.
> 
> My thumb joint may have had some bone removed, but I don't know for sure, since I don't remember talking to my surgeon post-op.  Pre-op he said he might need to take a bit (a Wedge of bone) out.  Post-op he talked to Hubby, but either he didn't say much or Hubby didn't really comprehend all of it; could be either.  My pinky finger has stitches, I think, because it seemed like I could feel them yesterday when I moved the finger too much (I'm not sure how, maybe a reflex attempt to bend it when trying to exercise the adjacent fingers.)
> 
> Time for my pain pill, elevation & ice...



You chop those peppers, lady!  I wouldn't have thought about trimming my nails either...
So glad your test was negative and that the surgery is done.  Praying for a quick progress in recovery!


----------



## earlene

Zany_in_CO said:


> FWIW, Vitamin C is the "healing vitamin".
> Whenever I have surgery on the horizon, I take
> 1000 IU vitamin C 3 X a day, with meals...
> for 3 days before the procedure and
> for 1 week after the procedure. That's all.
> It sounds like an excessive amount but the body takes what it needs and flushes the rest in the form of pretty bright yellow pee. LOL If you try this, you and your surgeon will be amazed at the amount of healing that takes place in a short amount of time.
> 
> I did this recently when I had a growth removed from my eyelid. The worst part was the needle injected to deaden the pain prior to the surgeon taking a scalpel and deftly lopping off the mass. Biopsy was negative. It's been five weeks now. The open wound is completely closed (without stitches) and I can barely see the scar.


High doses of vit C cause diarrhea (FMMV, but this is me), so I have to keep it to 500mg daily.  I am also on an immunomodulator med, which is closely monitored, so that is another concern in my case.  All my meds & OTC's are monitored, btw.


----------



## Susie

Whole lot of nurses in here. 

@earlene -praying for a speedy recovery and no complications!


----------



## earlene

Sharing here from another thread where it was being discussed:

As a (retired) nurse, let me share a few tips for future vaccinations recipients:

4 items for up-front (prior to/at time of)

Don't tense up.  Rigid muscle during injection -> more pain.  Take a few deep breaths ahead of time, meditate, whatever helps you relax, soft music, listen to/watch a comedian - aside from getting sloshed  
Bring an ice pack with you, and place it on your arm (deltoid area) for a few minutes prior to your turn for injection.
Avoid taking prophylactic acetaminophen, aspirin or other NSAIDs, although they can prevent/diminish some uncomfortable effects of vaccination, per recent studies on effects of NSAIDs on antibody production, may be counter-productive (link) If in doubt, contact your personal physician.
ASK the person who administers the vaccination if massaging the site of injection is advisable (sometimes, yes, sometime, no.)

Immediately afterward & for the next day or so:

Move your arm around after injection (immobility of that arm can lead to more pain.)
Avoid NSAIDs as  indicated above until medical advice changes (contact your physician for advice as needed)
Warm pack at injection site periodically can help reduce pain.

Call your doctor if:

High fever,
Signs of allergic reaction: difficulty breathing, rapid heart rate, hives or rash, dizziness, sudden weakness, pallor.

If anyone else has anything to add that will help folks prepare for the vaccine, please do.  I am sure I haven't thought of every helpful tip.


----------



## Susie

earlene said:


> Sharing here from another thread where it was being discussed:
> 
> As a (retired) nurse, let me share a few tips for future vaccinations recipients:
> 
> 4 items for up-front (prior to/at time of)
> 
> Don't tense up.  Rigid muscle during injection -> more pain.  Take a few deep breaths ahead of time, meditate, whatever helps you relax, soft music, listen to/watch a comedian - aside from getting sloshed
> Bring an ice pack with you, and place it on your arm (deltoid area) for a few minutes prior to your turn for injection.
> Avoid taking prophylactic acetaminophen, aspirin or other NSAIDs, although they can prevent/diminish some uncomfortable effects of vaccination, per recent studies on effects of NSAIDs on antibody production, may be counter-productive (link) If in doubt, contact your personal physician.
> ASK the person who administers the vaccination if massaging the site of injection is advisable (sometimes, yes, sometime, no.)
> 
> Immediately afterward & for the next day or so:
> 
> Move your arm around after injection (immobility of that arm can lead to more pain.)
> Avoid NSAIDs as  indicated above until medical advice changes (contact your physician for advice as needed)
> Warm pack at injection site periodically can help reduce pain.
> 
> Call your doctor if:
> 
> High fever,
> Signs of allergic reaction: difficulty breathing, rapid heart rate, hives or rash, dizziness, sudden weakness, pallor.
> 
> If anyone else has anything to add that will help folks prepare for the vaccine, please do.  I am sure I haven't thought of every helpful tip.



DO NOT get the second injection in the same arm as the first.


----------



## BattleGnome

Susie said:


> DO NOT get the second injection in the same arm as the first.



Any particular reason?

My second injection (Pfizer) was in the same arm and I had fewer issues than the first shot. or was I supposed to have a bigger reaction the second time?


----------



## earlene

I was one of the lucky ones.  No side effects, minimal soreness at injection site.  Moderna in dominant arm each time. During a drive-through clinic, there's no option for which arm unless you trade seats.


----------



## Susie

My husband and I got the Moderna vaccines the same week as four of my co-workers and their spouses(all of us in healthcare, all of us with other diagnoses). All of us that got it in the same arm had a miserable 2-3 days with muscle soreness everywhere, low grade fevers, malaise, fatigue, sore arms. All the rest of us who didn't had a slightly sore arm that evening.  

Just wanted to give everyone a heads up, as we were warned going into the second vaccine not to get it in the same arm. And I don't recall seeing that information anywhere else.


----------



## Hope Ann

Susie said:


> DO NOT get the second injection in the same arm as the first.



Interesting.  But not everyone has the option of a second arm.

Hope


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I experienced re-entry into something that approaches “normal” this week. I spent Thursday and Friday in my workplace office for the first time in over a year. I’ve seen my work team on Zoom or talked by phone multiple times a day every weekday, but in person only a few times since last March. It was good to be together again, and with them it was almost like the pandemic never happened.  Then today I participated in a commencement ceremony that had 1000s of attendees.  It was outside, we adhered to distancing rules and there was plenty of space, but it sure felt surreal.


----------



## KiwiMoose

We are so lucky here - we currently have 23 COVID cases in the entire country - all in managed isolation centres at the border (where they were identified upon entry to the country).  We have been operating 'normally' for 8 or 9 months now with the exception of our largest city, Auckland, which had a temporary partial lockdown for about 5 days earlier this year.  We still have QR codes up at every location (stores, community venues etc) that some people scan, and some people don't.  Just to help with tracking if we do have another outbreak.


----------



## Tara_H

Wow, I'm looking forward to getting something like that going here. Up until last week there were police checkpoints on the roads to make sure you were only going within 5km or you had a valid reason (medical, buying animal supplies and such).

I joined my current team just over a year ago (during the first lockdown) and although I knew some of them previously, none of us have met in person since then.  There have been quite a few hired since who have never met any of us, including our manager, in person, and have never been to the office...

It's going to be really strange when things start to change back.  My husband was able to register for his vaccination the other day and I'm expecting my chance will come very soon.


----------



## JuLeeRenee

Tara_H said:


> Wow, I'm looking forward to getting something like that going here. Up until last week there were police checkpoints on the roads to make sure you were only going within 5km or you had a valid reason (medical, buying animal supplies and such).



Wow, I would be screwed. I don't have much at all besides houses in that distance.


----------



## Tara_H

JuLeeRenee said:


> Wow, I would be screwed. I don't have much at all besides houses in that distance.


Yeah, we don't have much other than fields in that distance!  We got stopped a lot but we were never traveling without a proper reason; mostly to get our prescriptions or to buy chicken food.  All non-essential businesses were closed anyway so there wasn't a lot of places to go!


----------



## Tara_H

Well, I'm up for my first vaccine shot tomorrow, wish me luck!

Interestingly I noticed this in the info sheet (Pfizer vaccine):


> If you have had an immediate allergic reaction to any other vaccine, injectable therapy or polysorbate 80, you should talk to your doctor before getting the COVID-19 vaccine.



That polysorbate really is used for everything, isn't it?


----------



## GemstonePony

Tara_H said:


> Well, I'm up for my first vaccine shot tomorrow, wish me luck!
> 
> Interestingly I noticed this in the info sheet (Pfizer vaccine):
> 
> 
> That polysorbate really is used for everything, isn't it?


Absolutely everything. Now I kind of want to know what systems in my body benefit from having an emulsifier injected into them. 
Good luck with your vaccine!


----------



## KimW

Tara_H said:


> Well, I'm up for my first vaccine shot tomorrow, wish me luck!
> 
> Interestingly I noticed this in the info sheet (Pfizer vaccine):
> 
> 
> That polysorbate really is used for everything, isn't it?


Wishing you the best, Tara!!


----------



## dibbles

GemstonePony said:


> Absolutely everything. Now I kind of want to know what systems in my body benefit from having an emulsifier injected into them.
> Good luck with your vaccine!


Good luck Tara!


----------



## earlene

Tara_H said:


> Well, I'm up for my first vaccine shot tomorrow, wish me luck!
> 
> Interestingly I noticed this in the info sheet (Pfizer vaccine):
> 
> 
> That polysorbate really is used for everything, isn't it?


Do you eat ice cream?


----------



## Tara_H

earlene said:


> Do you eat ice cream?


I'm afraid I don't actually! (Very sadly  ) I'm allergic to cows' milk which means all sort of good things (cheese, chocolate, ice cream) are off the table by default.  (I.e. without a fair bit of effort and money to find an alternate.)

But when I was researching polysorbate 80 for using in bath bombs, I was reassured to discover it's often a food ingredient too


----------



## earlene

Well now, I am so sorry you cannot eat traditional ice cream, but not even that made without cow's milk?


----------



## Tara_H

earlene said:


> Well now, I am so sorry you cannot eat traditional ice cream, but not even that made without cow's milk?


Yes, I sometimes make my own, and there are a couple of dairy-free brands which can be found sometimes, but the options here are pretty limited so generally it's not something that I eat


----------



## ResolvableOwl

Gadget-hostile you might just have one too few ice cream maker


----------



## AliOop

A lawsuit has been filed in the US, seeking a preliminary injunction to halt the use of the C19 vaccines due to 45,000 deaths in the US being attributed to the shots. 

No matter where you land on this issue, the allegations make for interesting reading:  
https://renz-law.com/45k-whistleblower-suit


----------



## beckster51

I skipped straight to the part about underreported deaths.  Their allegation that everyone who dies within 3 days of receiving a vaccine is ridiculous.  Think about it.  That's like saying everyone who took an aspirin within the last 3 days died because they took an aspirin.  Any algorithm based on correlation rather than causation is trash.  I actually have an open mind about what the side effects of vaccines are, even though I am pro vaccine.  I know that nothing is absolute.  But again, correlation does not equal causation.  That is huge leap in thinking, and those that understand epidemiology and medical research know that.


----------



## KiwiMoose

I won't be rushing into having a vaccine, but I *may* get one further down the line.  Fortunately for NZers, the issue is not as pressing because we can count on one hand how many active cases there are ( and they are in managed isolation).  
My opinion about the vaccine would no doubt be vastly different were I living in a region that was badly affected by COVID-19.


----------



## linne1gi

AliOop said:


> A lawsuit has been filed in the US, seeking a preliminary injunction to halt the use of the C19 vaccines due to 45,000 deaths in the US being attributed to the shots.
> 
> No matter where you land on this issue, the allegations make for interesting reading:
> https://renz-law.com/45k-whistleblower-suit


@AliOop, thanks for the info.


----------



## beckster51

Sorry, @AliOop if I sounded snarky.  I don't mean to be.  It's just that all the misinformation really drives me to distraction.  I really did not find anything in their assertions that would cause alarm.  A lot of misinformation about many things comes from correlation rather than causation, and that is generally magical thinking or such a shortage of data that it is impossible to come to a conclusion.  I'll try to be more measured in my responses in future, even if I am pulling my hair out as I do so!  LOL


----------



## AliOop

beckster51 said:


> Sorry, @AliOop if I sounded snarky.  I don't mean to be.  It's just that all the misinformation really drives me to distraction.  I really did not find anything in their assertions that would cause alarm.  A lot of misinformation about many things comes from correlation rather than causation, and that is generally magical thinking or such a shortage of data that it is impossible to come to a conclusion.  I'll try to be more measured in my responses in future, even if I am pulling my hair out as I do so!  LOL


I didn't take as snarky, so no worries. Besides, I like open discussion and like hearing opposing views. Having a discussion with a variety of viewpoints is something our society seems to have forgotten how to do, so I appreciate that we can do that here.

As an attorney, I was most surprised by the conversational tone in which is was written, which is not typical for an adversarial document like a request for injunction. I can agree with some of the things in the lawsuit (don't suppress free discussion in the name of public safety - I can think for myself)... while other contentions make me roll my eyes.

For instance, I wasn't as bothered by the correlation v. causation issue, because in the law, a high enough correlation can be grounds to find causation. An example of this is smoking: it is the high correlation with lung cancer that has lead them to say "smoking causes cancer" - not any scientific test proving it, as that would require unethical human testing. But I digress....

But I was bothered that the 45k death number is a statistical extrapolation (aka ASSUMPTION) based on some smaller numbers, and what they believe those smaller numbers represent. From a legal standpoint, that is a VERY weak argument. I understand that they are making that argument in order to gain access to the actual records. And I absolutely agree that those records should be public. Hiding them inside a separate and non-public reporting system is wrong from every perspective. Make the records public, and deal with what's in there. Not too much to ask. But I don't like hyperbole because it actually weakens any valid arguments, IMO.


----------



## beckster51

I think this case is extraordinarily weak, and we are in the middle of this pandemic, so I think it is premature to come to any conclusions about vaccines and causation.  If the algorithm person is the basis for the suit, then I give them a big raspberry.  Even if they get access to all records to date,  they will not prove causation through use of an algorithm.  Scientists were able to prove that smoking causes severe dysplasia in lung tissue, so they were able to demonstrate harm.  It is nice to be able to have discussions that are civil, but this type of suit allows people who are antivaxxers to point to what they think is legitimacy for their beliefs, even though it is not, at least not yet.  The science will come out in due time.  Thanks for being tolerant of my response!


----------



## rdc1978

beckster51 said:


> Sorry, @AliOop if I sounded snarky.  I don't mean to be.  It's just that all the misinformation really drives me to distraction.  I really did not find anything in their assertions that would cause alarm.  A lot of misinformation about many things comes from correlation rather than causation, and that is generally magical thinking or such a shortage of data that it is impossible to come to a conclusion.  I'll try to be more measured in my responses in future, even if I am pulling my hair out as I do so!  LOL



I understand how you feel completely.  I don't get into arguments with anyone and I'm grateful to live in an area where people always took covid 19 seriously.  

I do appreciate @AliOop  highlighting this case and while frustrating I think its good that it's filed so that there is a chance for transparency and a way to address these accusations in a recognized legal forum designed to weigh facts and data.  

Perhaps the response from the various manufacturers will make people feel a little more confident.


----------



## earlene

AliOop said:


> A lawsuit has been filed in the US, seeking a preliminary injunction to halt the use of the C19 vaccines due to 45,000 deaths in the US being attributed to the shots.
> 
> No matter where you land on this issue, the allegations make for interesting reading:
> https://renz-law.com/45k-whistleblower-suit



Another point of view about the filers of this lawsuit, "America's Frontline Doctors:









						'America's Frontline Doctors' Continue to Misinform on COVID
					

Notorious physician group has now pivoted to inciting fear about vaccines




					www.medpagetoday.com
				




The founder of "America's Frontline Doctors" on July 16, 2020, is Simone Melissa Gold, an anti-vaccine activist, physician, attorney, and author.   (reference)









						America's Frontline Doctors - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## AliOop

Yup, I am all for transparency. And having been involved in a lot of trial work myself, I don't draw conclusions till I've seen all the evidence. Anyone can say anything, and saying it, doesn't make it so.  I do hope the issue is fully and fairly vetted in the courts, so that all of us can have confidence in whatever the science proves to be true.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

So this is a plug for vaccination. Based on reading and discussions with family members in the medical field, currently our biggest threat are the variants that continue to evolve. Until we reach worldwide herd immunity or better, we should all be vigilant, even after getting fully vaccinated.
I do have concerns about the vaccines, since they were developed so rapidly; but cases are down since people have been able to be vaccinated, at least for now. The quicker herd immunity is reached, the less time there is for a variant to develop that can't be stopped by the current vaccine.  We just don't need to lose any more lives to this horrible disease.
So please follow your CDC and health department guidelines. "Better to be safe, than sorry," as grandma used to say.

And finally, hats off to New Zealand! They have done an incredible job at containing and preventing the virus on their shores. I only wish the U.S. had taken it more seriously at the beginning of the pandemic.


----------



## melinda48

beckster51 said:


> Sorry, @AliOop if I sounded snarky.  I don't mean to be.  It's just that all the misinformation really drives me to distraction.  I really did not find anything in their assertions that would cause alarm.  A lot of misinformation about many things comes from correlation rather than causation, and that is generally magical thinking or such a shortage of data that it is impossible to come to a conclusion.  I'll try to be more measured in my responses in future, even if I am pulling my hair out as I do so!  LOL


Didn’t think you were “snarky” at all. No offense taken here!



Nona'sFarm said:


> So this is a plug for vaccination. Based on reading and discussions with family members in the medical field, currently our biggest threat are the variants that continue to evolve. Until we reach worldwide herd immunity or better, we should all be vigilant, even after getting fully vaccinated.
> I do have concerns about the vaccines, since they were developed so rapidly; but cases are down since people have been able to be vaccinated, at least for now. The quicker herd immunity is reached, the less time there is for a variant to develop that can't be stopped by the current vaccine.  We just don't need to lose any more lives to this horrible disease.
> So please follow your CDC and health department guidelines. "Better to be safe, than sorry," as grandma used to say.
> 
> And finally, hats off to New Zealand! They have done an incredible job at containing and preventing the virus on their shores. I only wish the U.S. had taken it more seriously at the beginning of the pandemic.


And what is the population of New Zealand compared to that of the US? I think we are doing fine considering our numbers. Vaccines are available for free everywhere you turn. Those who want it can easily get it; those who do not want it, won’t take it. Live your life as completely as you can as it is the only one you will get. I, for one, will not spend my time sequestered in my home, much as I love it! Fresh air, sunshine, good food, good friends (and making great soap) make life worth living.


----------



## lenarenee

My 2 pennies:   The vaccine was NOT created quickly. After the SARS 2003 outbreak, a vaccine went into pre-clinical animal testing, and scientists knew to target the spike protein. When covid -19 showed up, all they had to do was tweak proteins and DNA strands, test to see it was effective, then test to double check safety.  It's the same thing for flu vaccines every year; there's a model vaccine to start with which is tweaked to fit the current virus circulating that year.
mRNA vaccine technology has also been around for 15 years or more. It  greatly increases the speed at which a vaccine can be produced as well.  

2) I don't know how or if this relates to the legal complaint listed above, but have you seen website with the adverse reactions reports of the vaccine? I've read through a dozen pages or so of it. The adverse effects are NOT reported by medical personnel, they're reported by mostly relatives. There's no qualification system for someone to report an adverse effect....it's basically guesses and heresy. People claiming that they 84 year old parent in palliative care with 2 chronic diseases dying days after receiving the vaccine are....useless. Most of them were elderly, compromised patients. There were no medical evaluations or autopsies substantiating any claims. Causes of deaths of the death certificates varied greatly, and many family called them lies. So, if any of those 45,000 supposed vaccine deaths came from the adverse reaction list, I know there's no proof behind it.


----------



## rdc1978

This, this right here?  These are the conversations we, as a society, need to be having. 

And the genesis of it was the lawsuit that @AliOop  brought up.  

I dont have the time or patience to have these conversations but I'm glad to see the discussions happening.  

I know what side I am on, and I do not particularly understand the "other side", but I know that we are all in this together, so the discussion back and forth with both sides giving information can only help.  Particularly if there are some things that are open to misunderstanding and can be debunked. 

Thank you all.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Nona'sFarm said:


> And finally, hats off to New Zealand! They have done an incredible job at containing and preventing the virus on their shores. I only wish the U.S. had taken it more seriously at the beginning of the pandemic.


We are lucky that we are small and self-contained.  We don't border any other countries and we have a population of under 5 million, so it is easier for us to manage. I think larger countries/those with higher populations are always going to be hit hardest.


----------



## Marsi

we are larger and mostly self-contained

but we are in lockdown

again


----------



## Vicki C

I am PRO VACCINE and frustrated by disinformation. So, that’s where I stand.

Here is some info from a local tv station, WTOL, on Attorney Renz and this lawsuit and his previous lawsuit. She says vaccines make you magnetized. This lawmaker invited her testimony, chair says

Here is some info from the Ohio Capital Journal on the previous lawsuit. COVID deniers drop lawsuit against health department; their $130k legal fund remains - Ohio Capital Journal

I am grateful to be vaccinated. I worry about my two grandchildren who are too young to be vaccinated and yes, I understand that children fare better in general than adults with C19 infections.


----------



## beckster51

lenarenee said:


> My 2 pennies:   The vaccine was NOT created quickly. After the SARS 2003 outbreak, a vaccine went into pre-clinical animal testing, and scientists knew to target the spike protein. When covid -19 showed up, all they had to do was tweak proteins and DNA strands, test to see it was effective, then test to double check safety.  It's the same thing for flu vaccines every year; there's a model vaccine to start with which is tweaked to fit the current virus circulating that year.
> mRNA vaccine technology has also been around for 15 years or more. It  greatly increases the speed at which a vaccine can be produced as well.
> 
> 2) I don't know how or if this relates to the legal complaint listed above, but have you seen website with the adverse reactions reports of the vaccine? I've read through a dozen pages or so of it. The adverse effects are NOT reported by medical personnel, they're reported by mostly relatives. There's no qualification system for someone to report an adverse effect....it's basically guesses and heresy. People claiming that they 84 year old parent in palliative care with 2 chronic diseases dying days after receiving the vaccine are....useless. Most of them were elderly, compromised patients. There were no medical evaluations or autopsies substantiating any claims. Causes of deaths of the death certificates varied greatly, and many family called them lies. So, if any of those 45,000 supposed vaccine deaths came from the adverse reaction list, I know there's no proof behind it.


Great comment!  Unfortunately, families and other nonmedical people are contributing to misinformation through ignorance about what has caused death in a lot of people.  A large number of people will die every day, regardless of Covid-19 vaccines.  That does not mean all deaths of people who received the vaccine can be attributed to the vaccine.  It's understandable that the vaccine would jump to mind first, but saying with certainty it was caused by the vaccine is not based in fact.  I know there are medical researchers who are going to review each and every one of these deaths, but it will take time to determine if they are vaccine related.  And, yes, mRNA research into coronavirus vaccines has been going on a long time.  Other coronaviruses had caused epidemics prior to this one.  MERS and SARS are both coronaviruses, and they caused many deaths, but they are not well known in this country because few people in this country were affected.


----------



## Susie

I am happily vaccinated. So are all the members of my immediate family. I am the definition of a person with co-morbidities. I took the steps I deemed necessary to be as safe as possible.  I have members on all sides of my extended family who are vehemently anti-vaxxers when it comes to this vaccine. I try to explain to them that we have been making mRNA vaccines for a lot of years. They don't listen.

I know people who were vaccinated and then caught the delta variant. They spent a week at a children's camp that has since been shut down due to the overwhelming numbers of people with Co-Vid. They had 3 days of mild flu symptoms and went on with their lives as soon as they tested negative.

I talk to a lot of patients and families every day, and I really feel for the families that are now losing people to this virus because that person refused a vaccine. They are so angry at the person for not making a better decision. I fear their grief process will be a lot longer because they essentially feel like that person committed suicide. And speaking from experience, being stuck in the anger part of the grief process really extends the process. You have to get past it to move on.

Make up your own minds on what you are going to do about the vaccine. But if you are not going to get the vaccine, maybe talk to your family members on how they would feel if you died of a preventable illness like Co-vid. Because you do matter to them. And grief is all they will be left with.


----------



## beckster51

Susie said:


> I am happily vaccinated. So are all the members of my immediate family. I am the definition of a person with co-morbidities. I took the steps I deemed necessary to be as safe as possible.  I have members on all sides of my extended family who are vehemently anti-vaxxers when it comes to this vaccine. I try to explain to them that we have been making mRNA vaccines for a lot of years. They don't listen.
> 
> I know people who were vaccinated and then caught the delta variant. They spent a week at a children's camp that has since been shut down due to the overwhelming numbers of people with Co-Vid. They had 3 days of mild flu symptoms and went on with their lives as soon as they tested negative.
> 
> I talk to a lot of patients and families every day, and I really feel for the families that are now losing people to this virus because that person refused a vaccine. They are so angry at the person for not making a better decision. I fear their grief process will be a lot longer because they essentially feel like that person committed suicide. And speaking from experience, being stuck in the anger part of the grief process really extends the process. You have to get past it to move on.
> 
> Make up your own minds on what you are going to do about the vaccine. But if you are not going to get the vaccine, maybe talk to your family members on how they would feel if you died of a preventable illness like Co-vid. Because you do matter to them. And grief is all they will be left with.


This is really spot-on and touching, Susie.  My mother committed suicide, it is very difficult to come to terms with a loved one's death that angers you while you also feel bereft that they are gone.  How do you resolve anger when there is no longer anyone there to be angry with?  I also feel sorrow for those who lose loved ones that refused the vaccine.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

melinda48 said:


> And what is the population of New Zealand compared to that of the US? I think we are doing fine considering our numbers. Vaccines are available for free everywhere you turn. Those who want it can easily get it; those who do not want it, won’t take it. Live your life as completely as you can as it is the only one you will get. I, for one, will not spend my time sequestered in my home, much as I love it! Fresh air, sunshine, good food, good friends (and making great soap) make life worth living.


I hear you loud and clear! Self care of one's mental health is definitely important. NZ is definitely self contained; however if we had done more testing and isolation at the beginning, the case loads would have been much lower. Once we understood that wearing masks helped protect others, more should have done it, than get all up in arms about their "rights." When someone who can, doesn't get the vaccine, they are not risking only their health, but the health of those who can't get it because of certain health conditions. Additionally, until world herd immunity is reached one day sooner or later there will be a variant that the vaccine can't stop.  Yes they will need to tweak the vaccine, but how many will get sick and possibly die, when the variant could have been prevented; then even those of us who have been vaccinated are at risk. In my opinion, our individualistic American spirit gets in the way at times and needs to be balanced with what's good for the greater community.

I know I am getting all preachy here and perhaps because I live in a southern rural community, these attitudes are more prevalent here. Please know that I am not attacking you @melinda48, I am just generally concerned about this situation. If anything, this pandemic has shown us what a global community we truly are and what one does truly has an impact on others.


----------



## earlene

Much as I feel it is a sad state of affairs that any discerning human would belligerently choose to put themselves above others while protecting their purported rights & perceived well-being over the rights and well-being of others, perhaps this is mother nature's way of thinning the herd or a method of reducing the population that is causing so much damage to the Earth upon which we live.  Perhaps it is a method of proving Darwin's theory about the survival of the fittest; I do not necessarily mean those most physically fit, but those who exercise wisdom as a test of fitness.

Now the anti-vaxxers believe they are exercising wisdom, while the science and health conscious tend to believe that wisdom dictates vaccination to prevent wide-spread death and disease.  We all have a right to our own opinions, whether we think the other opinion is stupid or not.  

Then, of course there are the folks who have little to no access to vaccines but would take them were they available to them; these folks are the ones who are sadly suffering because they don't have a choice.  I feel more for them than I do for the others whose opinions are different than my own.  I feel badly for them because they don't have easy choices and their lives are at risk through no choice of their own.


----------



## AliOop

Just remember that most folks refusing the vaccine are not doing so out of selfishness; they honestly believe that the vaccine does more harm than good.

I am not saying that these folks are correct. I am saying that you will feel less angry towards those refusing the vaccine if you believe the best about them - that they are acting out of sincere beliefs (right or wrong), and not selfishness. 

Reducing the level of hostility and division among us is good for everyone, both mentally and physically.


----------



## lenarenee

Why do people believe the magnetism thing? Are they seeing forks and spoons flying across restaurant to smack into vaccinated people? Are coins and paperclips stuck to people's hands?  Are people calling 911 to ask for help because they're magnetized to their stainless steel 'fridge?

Seriously, I suspect a lot of this can be explained by personality traits. An unvaccinated man recovering from covid in the hospital was asked if he would have gotten vaccinated had he known his future. He said no, because he wasn't going to let anyone shove anything down his throat. I understand what he means....the more I'm forced to do something, the more it's not going to get done. However, I didn't feel forced to get the vaccine, as I work for scientists and am fed covid science daily and recognized this is a desperate world wide effort to contain the virus.


----------



## Susie

earlene said:


> Much as I feel it is a sad state of affairs that any discerning human would belligerently choose to put themselves above others while protecting their purported rights & perceived well-being over the rights and well-being of others, perhaps this is mother nature's way of thinning the herd or a method of reducing the population that is causing so much damage to the Earth upon which we live.  *Perhaps it is a method of proving Darwin's theory about the survival of the fittest; I do not necessarily mean those most physically fit, but those who exercise wisdom as a test of fitness.*
> 
> Now the anti-vaxxers believe they are exercising wisdom, while the science and health conscious tend to believe that wisdom dictates vaccination to prevent wide-spread death and disease.  We all have a right to our own opinions, whether we think the other opinion is stupid or not.
> 
> Then, of course there are the folks who have little to no access to vaccines but would take them were they available to them; these folks are the ones who are sadly suffering because they don't have a choice.  I feel more for them than I do for the others whose opinions are different than my own.  I feel badly for them because they don't have easy choices and their lives are at risk through no choice of their own.



I have thought this more than once. My relatives (bless their hearts) think this about me. I now watch them freak out about whether we will have to prove vaccine status to fly or gather in large numbers. I understand that each side thinks the other is doing something incredibly risky and foolish, but I really hope that does not cost one of them their life.


----------



## Dana89

lenarenee said:


> Why do people believe the magnetism thing? Are they seeing forks and spoons flying across restaurant to smack into vaccinated people? Are coins and paperclips stuck to people's hands?  Are people calling 911 to ask for help because they're magnetized to their stainless steel 'fridge?
> 
> Seriously, I suspect a lot of this can be explained by personality traits. An unvaccinated man recovering from covid in the hospital was asked if he would have gotten vaccinated had he known his future. He said no, because he wasn't going to let anyone shove anything down his throat. I understand what he means....the more I'm forced to do something, the more it's not going to get done. However, I didn't feel forced to get the vaccine, as I work for scientists and am fed covid science daily and recognized this is a desperate world wide effort to contain the virus.


He may feel differently if they have to shove a breathing tube down his throat.


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## rdc1978

My brother's girlfriend is smart as a whip (not particularly personable, but incredibly smart).

Graduates magna cum laude from a top law school.  

Last we spoke, she was refusing the vaccine on based on "research" which tends to have been debunked.  

One of the biggest problem we have is that intelligent people naturally research and Google is going to be a part of that.  
Anyone can put anything on the internet.  And some of it looks very official.  And it's so hard to be critical if something looks legit and is using a lot of medical terms you don't understand or that they are explaining to you.  

And its part of the reason why i think these discussions are important.  

The days where people just trust authority figures has passes.  People want to do their own research.  And the more intelligent the person, the more likely they are to think they can understand everything even without a background in the field.


----------



## TheGecko

earlene said:


> Much as I feel it is a sad state of affairs that any discerning human would belligerently choose to put themselves above others while protecting their purported rights & perceived well-being over the rights and well-being of others, perhaps this is mother nature's way of thinning the herd or a method of reducing the population that is causing so much damage to the Earth upon which we live.  Perhaps it is a method of proving Darwin's theory about the survival of the fittest; I do not necessarily mean those most physically fit, but those who exercise wisdom as a test of fitness.
> 
> Now the anti-vaxxers believe they are exercising wisdom, while the science and health conscious tend to believe that wisdom dictates vaccination to prevent wide-spread death and disease.  We all have a right to our own opinions, whether we think the other opinion is stupid or not.
> 
> Then, of course there are the folks who have little to no access to vaccines but would take them were they available to them; these folks are the ones who are sadly suffering because they don't have a choice.  I feel more for them than I do for the others whose opinions are different than my own.  I feel badly for them because they don't have easy choices and their lives are at risk through no choice of their own.



This is a bunch of effing bovine male excrement! Just because someone chooses to not get vaccinated for Covid 19 does NOT make them an anti-vaxxer, doesn't NOT make them belligerent, does NOT make them less discerning, does NOT make them selfish, does NOT make them stupid or whatever other insult you can come up.

I am not vaccinated.  My husband is.  None of my children are (including the one who had Covid).  One sister is vaccinated, one is not, none of their children are.  Out of the seven people in our office, two of us are not vaccinated, one had Covid and is not vaccinated, the rest are (when one of the guys in the office found out that I was not going to get vaccinated, he became insulting and belittling...boss put a stop to that).  Of two DILs, one is vaccinated, one is not.  It should be noted that everyone is an adult (30+).

Since the very beginning of Covid-19, there has been a LOT of misinformation put before the public. Some of it was due to lack of understanding of Covid-19, some of it was due to the changing nature of the virus, a lot of it was political; and unfortunately, at least in the US, the politics has not stopped. And the virus hasn't stopped changing either. The media has down played it a lot, but the vaccine isn't effective against the variant out of India.

As of right now, I am not comfortable with subjecting myself to a vaccine for a new virus that was less than a year old. I understand that science is constantly working on vaccine and for any one to say: "The vaccine was NOT created quickly. After the SARS 2003 outbreak, a vaccine went into pre-clinical animal testing, and scientists knew to target the spike protein. When Covid -19 showed up, all they had to do was tweak proteins and DNA strands, test to see it was effective, then test to double check safety." is mind-blowing. Consider this...this person wants folks to believe that a vaccine that has been _in development_ for 16-17 years for a virus that globally affected less than 10,000 people and hasn't been seen since (expect in a lab) was able to be quickly made with a little 'tweaking' and we're just supposed to accept that?!? No. No.


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## paradisi

Covid vax is NOT new; just this one variety. MERS, SARS didn't much affect the US, but MRNA vax aren't new or untested.

And we have new flu vax every season, with less time to develop and test than the covid vax have been.

Choosing not to be vaccinated (unless you've got an immunodeficiency or are on chemo, etc) is choosing to risk the health of everyone you come in contact with, as well as your own.

Googling is not research.  Reading political blogs or your Facebook feed is not research.

Covid vax are more tested, and proven effective and safe, than the ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine that vax resisters tout.

It seems that a lot of the hostility shown by vax resisters might be because they see they've backed the wrong horse, so to speak,  and are unwilling to admit it in public.

I don't care if resisters admit anything in public, I just want them to be good to themselves and their families, friends and anyone they cross paths with by getting vaccinated, and not spreading misinformation or outright lies about the safety and effectiveness of the vac.

Friends of mine who were unable to be vaccinated for real medical reasons have died or spent months on a ventilator because of vax resisters and it's not just horribly sad, it's infuriating that people who don't know what they're talking about or think it can't happen to *them* have caused it.


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## rdc1978

I think you both have good points.  I know where I land, but I've trusted medical science since I was diagnosed with t1 diabetes as a child.  So it's very natural  for me to trust what the medical community recommends.  
I dont have that spirit that makes me super critical. And I think we ALL have been in a field where someone who hadn't had the same expertise that we did, thought they understood things as well as we did.  

I've gotten frustrated but when I sit back and take an objective look, what can we do?  

As @paradisi.  Said, the most important thing for people who are pro vaccine is to get more people to get vaccinated.  

AND as @TheGecko  said, or alluded, the only way we are going to even have a shot (pun intended) at getting more people vaccinated is to have these open conversations, where we talk about things that may be misinformation or things that can be explaining.  Countering and clarifying confusing and conflicting information.  

There are some people who will never take the vaccine.  But hopefully people can be open to having their concerns addressed.


----------



## Marsi

in Australia most of our population is unvaccinated
we have 3 vaccines approved by our government
Pfizer (extremely limited supply), Astra Zeneca (abundant stock, 6 Australian clot deaths), Moderna (supply due to arrive later this year)

people under 40 are excluded from the official government vaccine rollout
they are turned away if they show up and refused a booking if they call to book
(except for priority groups, yesterday pregnant woment were included in the priority Pfizer rollout group)

people eligible for the Pfizer vaccine are having difficulty accessing the vaccine, there is not enough stock
recently the official reports showed one mass vaccination hub in VIC ... vaccinated 50 people
in NSW, where the Delta variant in in the community, second doses of Pfizer are being postponed or cancelled, to allow more first doses to be given

the Moderna vaccine is not being offered to anyone

i talked to a teacher here who is desperate to get vaccinated, they deal with the public and children every day at their work
they are young and not included in the official government priority list (for their designated vaccine, Pfizer)
the only choice they have is to risk taking the Astra Zeneca vaccine, by seeking it out privately and signing a waiver for their doctor

some people are understandably nervous about the Astra Zeneca vaccine
(5 people here have died of thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) and 1 of immune thrombocytopenia (ITP))

the reality for most of our population?
Astra Zeneca, or nothing
we have ... Hobsons' choice



TheGecko said:


> The media has down played it a lot, but the vaccine isn't effective against the variant out of India.



incorrect
reduced efficacy is not the same as inefficacy



> According to figures gathered by Public Health Scotland and published in the Lancet, at least two weeks after the second dose of Covid jabs, protection against infection fell from 92% for the Alpha variant to 79% against the Delta variant for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, while for the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine the protection fell from 73% to 60% respectively.
> 
> Protection against symptomatic disease has also been found to differ depending on the variant.
> 
> According to the latest figures from Public Health England (PHE), four weeks after one dose, either vaccine offered almost 50% protection against the Alpha variant. However for the Delta variant this protection was lower, with one dose of the Pfizer/BioNTech jab offering about 36% protection against symptomatic disease. For one dose of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine this figure was about 30%.
> 
> 
> Two weeks after the second dose, the differences in vaccine effectiveness by variant were more modest, with the Pfizer/BioNTech jab offering 88% protection against symptomatic disease with the Delta variant, compared with 94% protection against the Alpha variant. For the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, the figures were 67% and 74% respectively.


*www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/15/the-covid-delta-variant-how-effective-are-the-vaccines


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## KiwiMoose

I'm a dreadful fence-sitter.  I am one of those people who hears and understands both sides of the story.  As I say, I am pleased that I live somewhere that allows me the breathing space to sit on said fence and there is no pressure either way.  Like I said earlier, if I lived somewhere where COVID-19 was more prevalent I'm sure I would be acting one way or another.


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## rdc1978

@Marsi- I joke that I pledged house Pfizer and it was such a relief given my underlying condition.  

Pfizer has to be kept extremely cold.  I went to a federal vaccination site and the nurses had to keep only a small number of prefilled shots in an insulated box on their table because it had to be kept so cold.  

I remember when the vaccine first came out, people were like waiting in lines, hoping for leftovers, getting up at all hours of the morning to get it....and now you can literally walk into any local CVS or Walgreens and get a vaccine.  

I hope that what you guys experience too.  I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I hope it works out.  I literally cried with relief when I got my first shot.  I didn't realize how much stress I was under and how worried I was until I could feel it in my arm.


----------



## Vicki C

rdc1978 said:


> @Marsi- I joke that I pledged house Pfizer and it was such a relief given my underlying condition.
> 
> Pfizer has to be kept extremely cold.  I went to a federal vaccination site and the nurses had to keep only a small number of prefilled shots in an insulated box on their table because it had to be kept so cold.
> 
> I remember when the vaccine first came out, people were like waiting in lines, hoping for leftovers, getting up at all hours of the morning to get it....and now you can literally walk into any local CVS or Walgreens and get a vaccine.
> 
> I hope that what you guys experience too.  I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I hope it works out.  I literally cried with relief when I got my first shot.  I didn't realize how much stress I was under and how worried I was until I could feel it in my arm.


I cried too.


----------



## lenarenee

TheGecko said:


> I understand that science is constantly working on vaccine and for any one to say: "The vaccine was NOT created quickly. After the SARS 2003 outbreak, a vaccine went into pre-clinical animal testing, and scientists knew to target the spike protein. When Covid -19 showed up, all they had to do was tweak proteins and DNA strands, test to see it was effective, then test to double check safety." is mind-blowing. Consider this...this person wants folks to believe that a vaccine that has been _in development_ for 16-17 years for a virus that globally affected less than 10,000 people and hasn't been seen since (expect in a lab) was able to be quickly made with a little 'tweaking' and we're just supposed to accept that?!? No. No.



That SARS 2003 pandemic is EXACTLY why a vaccine became a priority to science - they recognized the  high potential for a lethal future pandemic of a very sneaky virus.  And today we are flippin' lucky that they did. (despite the fact they were defunded a by governments a few years later. The prototype was saved and stored despite that).

It's just like flu vaccines; once you have the prototype, you tweak it to meet the next new form. Flu and coronaviruses have hundreds of different versions.









						Coronaviruses
					

Coronaviruses are a priority for NIAID. Three forms have emerged over the past two decades. These cause the serious and widespread diseases SARS, MERS, and COVID-19.




					www.niaid.nih.gov


----------



## Nona'sFarm

@Marsi , my prayers are for all those willing and ready to get the vaccine, but not able to, because of lack of availability. I hope the U.S. will continue to provide help to those who need it. Until we reach worldwide herd immunity, we are all at risk for new variants. I know the stress we were under trying to find vaccine availability for my 99 year old father and the sigh of relief after he was finally vaccinated. (and as my children point out, I'm no spring chicken, either) He is at risk for even a mild form of the disease, as are many others. So I am also fervently praying that everyone who can, get vaccinated.
For those still unsure, I urge you to talk with your healthcare professionals, getting as many details as possible to address your concerns. I was really  concerned for my granddaughter, until I had a long talk with my relatives who are medical professionals. I felt that it was just too new and there just hadn't been enough research to understand the long term effects on a young person. They were able to explain how it worked and the relative safety of it, and particularly the risk of not getting the vaccine; the risk both to her and others.


----------



## beckster51

KiwiMoose said:


> I'm a dreadful fence-sitter.  I am one of those people who hears and understands both sides of the story.  As I say, I am pleased that I live somewhere that allows me the breathing space to sit on said fence and there is no pressure either way.  Like I said earlier, if I lived somewhere where COVID-19 was more prevalent I'm sure I would be acting one way or another.


The only problem with being a fence sitter is that eventually the virus will find you, even if you  presently live in a low risk area.  It is all over the world, and we are a global community these days.  Since the common cold is a coronavirus, you can bet that Covid-19 will be here in some form from now on.  Hopefully, eventually enough people will become vaccinated that we will have herd immunity and quit passing it around constantly.  So, I hope you fall off the fence on the vaccination eventually before New Zealand totally opens up, and it will in time.


----------



## earlene

TheGecko said:


> This is a bunch of effing bovine male excrement! Just because someone chooses to not get vaccinated for Covid 19 does NOT make them an anti-vaxxer, doesn't NOT make them belligerent, does NOT make them less discerning, does NOT make them selfish, does NOT make them stupid or whatever other insult you can come up.
> 
> I am not vaccinated.  My husband is.  None of my children are (including the one who had Covid).  One sister is vaccinated, one is not, none of their children are.  Out of the seven people in our office, two of us are not vaccinated, one had Covid and is not vaccinated, the rest are (when one of the guys in the office found out that I was not going to get vaccinated, he became insulting and belittling...boss put a stop to that).  Of two DILs, one is vaccinated, one is not.  It should be noted that everyone is an adult (30+).
> 
> Since the very beginning of Covid-19, there has been a LOT of misinformation put before the public. Some of it was due to lack of understanding of Covid-19, some of it was due to the changing nature of the virus, a lot of it was political; and unfortunately, at least in the US, the politics has not stopped. And the virus hasn't stopped changing either. The media has down played it a lot, but the vaccine isn't effective against the variant out of India.
> 
> As of right now, I am not comfortable with subjecting myself to a vaccine for a new virus that was less than a year old. I understand that science is constantly working on vaccine and for any one to say: "The vaccine was NOT created quickly. After the SARS 2003 outbreak, a vaccine went into pre-clinical animal testing, and scientists knew to target the spike protein. When Covid -19 showed up, all they had to do was tweak proteins and DNA strands, test to see it was effective, then test to double check safety." is mind-blowing. Consider this...this person wants folks to believe that a vaccine that has been _in development_ for 16-17 years for a virus that globally affected less than 10,000 people and hasn't been seen since (expect in a lab) was able to be quickly made with a little 'tweaking' and we're just supposed to accept that?!? No. No.


I do not believe, nor did I say that every person who does not get the vaccine is an anti-vaxxer.  Nor do I believe, nor did I say that every person who does not get the vaccine is either non-discerning or belligerent.  I did not use the word selfish, and I did not call anyone stupid.  In fact, I called people discerning, whether you read it that way or not. However, I can see how you inferred the word 'selfish' from what I wrote. That part of what I wrote was in response to other discussions previous to my post where such behavior was described.

I am sorry that you felt that I was insulting you personally; that was certainly not my intent.  I was voicing my concern based on actual events that have occurred; some referenced by others in this thread and others I have witnessed repeatedly in my own experience with live face to face humans, as well as events witnessed &/or described to me by interactions my family have had. My husband works with self-proclaimed anti-vaxxers who DO belligerently state those views and argue at every apparent opportunity that they are being discriminated against and actually harmed by others regarding their beliefs that their POV is averse to others in this regard (as related to the CoVid virus, but also whether _any_ vaccines are safe or should even be required.)  We have neighbors with these views who are quite vocal about their anti-vaccine stance and how strongly they feel that they are defending their rights by protesting and even thwarting vaccination efforts when they have the opportunity.  We have actually heard many folks say _out loud_ that they should not have to do anything to protect another person's health regards CoVid, be it wear a mask, social distance, avoid sneezing on, or covering a cough toward others, or get to a vaccine as a precaution to prevent loved ones from getting infected. I am not exaggerating about these statements that we do hear people we know proclaim out loud to anyone within earshot. I suspect you have heard a belligerent child argue against whatever perceived wrong and know what belligerence sounds like, so I assure you that when I use the word 'belligerantly' it is because that is the attitude exhibited by the folks we have heard repeatedly making these statements and arguments. For the most part, I do not engage in these face to face conversations, unless they reference my capacity as a (retired) medical professional, in which case I will usually answer a specific question at least once. That is, unless I know for sure (from past experience with said person) that their question is simply bait to prolong or start an argument; in that case, I either change the subject or say it is not a discussion upon which we agree so will not engage because I don't want to strain our (hopefully) otherwise amicable relationship, 

The one glaring thing that I would agree that was not well put on my part (in the post you quoted) was in using the words 'health conscious' as a descriptor for one set of folks and not both (those who believe in getting vaccines and those in the anti-vax camp because I do know that the we all consider ourselves to be health conscious, no matter the side of the fence upon which we stand.  I apologize to anyone here who does adhere to the anti-vaccination camp, as it was a mistake on my part to imply that anyone is not health conscious.


Referenced sentence that I would change if edit were still possible, because I do believe we are all health conscious:


earlene said:


> Now the anti-vaxxers believe they are exercising wisdom, while the science and health conscious tend to believe that wisdom dictates vaccination to prevent wide-spread death and disease.


----------



## paradisi

Here are some thorough answers to questions about the vaccines from a doctor advising our very red state's governor.  The dr. is a Republican & Christian, if those are concerns one might have.  

These are excerpts from his blog published yesterday.

"I have spoken with dozens of people who are somewhat skeptical and some that are very skeptical. I have listened to their concerns and answered their questions the best that I could. The vast majority of these folks have followed up with me and indicated that they did go ahead and get vaccinated after our discussions. 
So, I am going to share some of those questions and my answers below, because it is likely that if they had these questions or concerns, there are others with the same questions or concerns.

Concern: The vaccines are experimental.
Response: The Pfizer, Moderna and J&J vaccines are not experimental. Vaccine opponents have carefully selected words that are calculated to provoke an emotional and negative response from those they hope to influence. Labelling the vaccines “experimental” is intended to scare people. The clinical trials for these vaccines were conducted last year. At that time, they were experimental. These vaccines are no longer considered experimental by physicians, scientists, the FDA and the courts, where plaintiffs unsuccessfully asserted that the vaccines were experimental.
In the United States alone, about 340 million doses of vaccine have been administered. The Pfizer vaccine is being used by 111 countries. The Moderna vaccine is being administered by 61 countries. The J&J vaccine is being administered in 33 countries. If these vaccines were experimental, these would be the largest clinical trials ever conducted, a reason to trust them even more.
So, if you decide not to be vaccinated, at least do not use the false narrative that the U.S. vaccines are “experimental” as your reason.

2. Concern: We don’t have long-term studies on the safety of vaccines.
Response: Minor vaccine reactions (sore arm, redness at the injection site, fever, aches and rashes) generally occur within hours to a few days, but almost always occur within 12 days of vaccination. Serious vaccine reactions usually manifest themselves within hours to days, and almost always within 35 days of the vaccination. Thus, the FDA required a minimum of two months of safety data prior to issuing Emergency Use Authorization for the vaccines.
Because of the size of the trials, the studies were designed to identify adverse effects of the vaccines that occur at the rate of at least 1 in 30,000 or 1 in 40,000 people vaccinated. However, the FDA has continued to monitor the safety of vaccines following the grant of Emergency Use Authorization, such that now we are identifying adverse effects that occur at a rate of 1 in a million or 1 in 10 million vaccinees.
Keep in mind, that we have administered about ten times more COVID vaccines than the number of all other vaccines that we administer in an average year in the U.S. Thus, we don’t need longer term data to identify adverse effects in adults and any adverse effects that we do identify as we have additional time to vaccinate more people will be events that occur at extraordinarily rare levels. Keep in mind, while there have been rare serious adverse events reported with the COVID vaccines, these have largely been events that occur at much higher frequency in those who become ill with COVID.
As we are seeing a surge in new cases across the country due to delta, if you choose not to be vaccinated, at least do not be misled by claims that we need more data or longer-term studies to assess the safety of these vaccines. We have all the data that we need to make a safety assessment of these vaccines, and in every case, the FDA, the CDC, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, and public health and infectious disease experts have concluded that the benefits outweigh the risks.

3. Fear: I don’t want to get the vaccine because I am scared of the side effects.
Response: I can certainly understand this. Most people, like my wife, have very mild side effects. Some, like me, have 1 – 3 days of feeling ill or like they have the flu. Obviously, no one wants to go through these side effects, but again, one should compare the potential side effects to the potential illness with COVID. While many people with COVID have mild symptoms, there are others who experience extreme distress and require hospitalization and some will require a ventilator to breathe for them.

4. Confusion: I am young and healthy, so I don’t need to be worried about getting COVID.
Response: I can certainly understand this sentiment. The fact that you are young and healthy does mean that you are very unlikely to die from COVID. On the other hand, there are many bad things that can happen to you even if you survive. The adverse effects that many fear with the vaccines occur far more often in people who are ill with COVID. With the alpha and now the delta variants, hospitals across the country and world have reported having younger people hospitalized, as well as in the ICU, including young adults in their twenties, thirties and forties. We also see up to a third of young people developing long-COVID following infection, even when that infection was mild. These are often young adults who were active and fit, who are experiencing severe limitations to their activity and exercise tolerance months following the infection.
So, even if you remain unconvinced that the benefits of vaccination outweigh the risks of COVID, please get vaccinated to lessen the possibility that you will infect someone you know and care about who might be at much higher risk for a severe outcome if they get infected.

5. Confusion: I had COVID, so I don’t need the vaccine.
Response: While having COVID does provide some degree of immune protection against re-infection for most, but certainly not all, persons, there is growing evidence that the degree of immune protection is inferior to that provided by vaccines. As we see more and more variants of concern, we have less and less confidence that natural infection will provide people the same degree of immune protection that the vaccine will. Therefore, we recommend that everyone who has previously had COVID get vaccinated once they recover from their illness.

6. Confusion: I can wait and then if I get sick, I can get vaccinated.
Response: This is incorrect. First of all, we do not vaccinate people against COVID who are sick from any infection. Secondly, if you are sick with COVID, it is too late for the vaccine to prevent you from becoming severely ill. The vaccine takes at least a week to produce the kind of immune response that we are looking for. While with previous variants and strains of the virus, even a single dose of vaccine would produce a significant amount of protection, with delta, we are finding that a single dose provides very little protection. Because both doses are required to achieve a robust immune response, we are generally looking at a period of 4 – 6 weeks from the first dose of the series until someone will be maximally protected against the delta variant.

So, if I am persuading you to get vaccinated, please do so ASAP and be sure to go back for your second dose as soon as it is time for it.
If one of the things holding you back from getting vaccinated is the thought that you have time and can get it once you get sick, please know that it is likely it will be too late by then. Please get protected now.

7. Concern: Some are concerned that vaccine “breakthroughs” mean that the vaccines don’t work.
Response: Vaccine breakthroughs are expected. We have known since the clinical trials that the vaccines would not be 100% effective, even though they are not far from it. The key is whether the vaccines can prevent severe illness, hospitalization and death. So, look at the deaths in the US from COVID and May and June. More than 99% of them occurred in the unvaccinated. It you look at the fully vaccinated rate in the U.S. of around 50%, you would expect the deaths to be about 50% in vaccinated persons and 50% in unvaccinated persons if the vaccine was not effective. The fact that deaths from COVID among the vaccinated are less than 1% confirms that these vaccines are highly protective, even if some persons get breakthrough infections.

I hope that if I have addressed your concern, you will get your first dose of vaccine this week. If you still have a concern, an unanswered question or a fear that I have not addressed, write a comment and tell me what that concern or question is and I will do my best to get you an answer. [[On his blog]]
I care about you. I do not want you to get infected or to inadvertently infect someone else. I want life to get back to normal, but we can’t get there if we allow this virus to continue to spread unabated, continuing to develop new and more threatening variants."


----------



## lenarenee

^^^^^. Sounds like this person should be hired as vaccine spokesman for the nation.


----------



## szaza

@paradisi could you provide a link to the blog you quoted?

I'm not really participating in this discussion, because I get easily frustrated with the subject, but I feel like I want to share my experience. 
I got assigned the AstraZeneca vaccine. The reports of people (mainly young women, which I think I still belong to) having serious side effects came in the news literally hours after my first injection. So for my second jab I made a risk assessment whether or not to go back and get it. It turned out that my risk of dying from covid within 3 months (considering my age group) was twice as high as my risk of dying from the AZ vaccine. Not to mention the risk of long term problems which is a lot higher in covid. 
Fear is normal in these weird times, but it's not a good guide.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

paradisi said:


> Here are some thorough answers to questions about the vaccines from a doctor advising our very red state's governor.
> ".... I hope that if I have addressed your concern, you will get your first dose of vaccine this week. If you still have a concern, an unanswered question or a fear that I have not addressed, write a comment and tell me what that concern or question is and I will do my best to get you an answer. "[[On his blog]]


@paradisi , thanks for this. Can you give us the web address for his/her blog?


----------



## rdc1978

szaza said:


> @paradisi could you provide a link to the blog you quoted?
> 
> I'm not really participating in this discussion, because I get easily frustrated with the subject, but I feel like I want to share my experience.
> I got assigned the AstraZeneca vaccine. The reports of people (mainly young women, which I think I still belong to) having serious side effects came in the news literally hours after my first injection. So for my second jab I made a risk assessment whether or not to go back and get it. It turned out that my risk of dying from covid within 3 months (considering my age group) was twice as high as my risk of dying from the AZ vaccine. Not to mention the risk of long term problems which is a lot higher in covid.
> Fear is normal in these weird times, but it's not a good guide.



It is hard.  

My aunt is in her late 70s and has multiple comorbities.  

She lives in abject fear of the coronavirus.  She takes multiple precautions, masks, she doesn't go out very often, she NEVER let's anyone in her house and she stays wiping down her groceries with lysol wipes.  

She is essentially a prisoner in her home and she cannot go to family gatherings (if they happen again).  

But she steadfastly refuses the vaccine.  

She shuts down if you even try to bring it up.  

I had a discussion with her about it early on and I think I didn't understand the level of misinformation floating around.  And written in such a way that it's easy to understand and seems to "make sense"

Now she feels like everyone is pointing and laughing at her, blaming her or calling her stupid and its making her dig her heels in even more.  

I haven't talked to her about it since, but I do worry for her.  

Just at my wits end.


----------



## melinda48

Nona'sFarm said:


> I hear you loud and clear! Self care of one's mental health is definitely important. NZ is definitely self contained; however if we had done more testing and isolation at the beginning, the case loads would have been much lower. Once we understood that wearing masks helped protect others, more should have done it, than get all up in arms about their "rights." When someone who can, doesn't get the vaccine, they are not risking only their health, but the health of those who can't get it because of certain health conditions. Additionally, until world herd immunity is reached one day sooner or later there will be a variant that the vaccine can't stop.  Yes they will need to tweak the vaccine, but how many will get sick and possibly die, when the variant could have been prevented; then even those of us who have been vaccinated are at risk. In my opinion, our individualistic American spirit gets in the way at times and needs to be balanced with what's good for the greater community.
> 
> I know I am getting all preachy here and perhaps because I live in a southern rural community, these attitudes are more prevalent here. Please know that I am not attacking you @melinda48, I am just generally concerned about this situation. If anything, this pandemic has shown us what a global community we truly are and what one does truly has an impact on others.


Sadly, the information given is by our medical experts has been changing almost daily. we were initially told masks did not work (come to find out this was because they were afraid there would not be enough for our medical personnel). Then we were told to wear one mask, then two, then none again. We chose to take the vaccine due to our ages (we are both over 70). Neither my husband or I have any co-morbidities nor do we take any medications, aside from my blood pressure medicine (yes, we are very fortunate and know it). We took it because it makes sense to do so.

The upshot is that people have free choice. Take it or not, I will still care for you. Four of my best friends have not and will not take the vaccine. I will Not judge their decision (two have advanced degrees; one in medicine and one in engineering). I cannot control anyone but me. I can pray for everyone though and that is what I will do. The vast majority of those who die (as with the flu and every other disease) have co-morbidities. If they don’t have enough sense to or choose not to take the vaccine, I cannot make them. None of us can. Life is a gift; cherish it and protect it or not, it is your choice.


----------



## TheGecko

earlene said:


> those who believe in getting vaccines and those in the anti-vax camp



And herein lies the problem...that anyone who has chosen to not be vaccinated is 'anti-vax'.  I'm not 'anti-vax'...my children were vaccinated.  Because I had Chicken Pox I get a Shingles shot.  Because I enjoy outdoor activities and because I run around barefoot I get a Tetanus shot.  After I was diagnosed with late onset Type II Diabetes I made sure to get an annual Influenza shot.  Last year was the first time I didn't one in almost 20 years, but I didn't feel it was necessary under the circumstances (gloves, masks, physical distancing, etc), but I will be getting one this year.  So...*NOT* anti-vaccine.

Without question, life in general would be so much easier if I received the vaccine. For one I could dispense with masks, gloves, hand sanitizer, sanitizing wipes and alcohol spritzer...my purse would be lighter, my glove box would be less full, my desk at work would be less cluttered. For another there is a thousand dollar 'bonus' from work...I could use that money to stock up on larger quantities of FOs or maybe get a couple of slab molds and a loaf cutter or maybe a really nice chair for my home office. Best yet, I wouldn't have to deal with all the "you're either with us or you're against us"...sorry to tell folks, but the world is NOT black and white.  

This is from Johns Hopkins...I consider(ed) them, as I believe many people do, to be a leading authority in the medical field:

_All three vaccines authorized for emergency use by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) have been thoroughly tested and found to be safe and effective in preventing severe COVID-19. They continue to undergo continuous and intense safety monitoring.

Johns Hopkins Medicine is administering all three COVID-19 vaccines: Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson. We view all three vaccines as highly effective in preventing serious disease, hospitalization and death from COVID-19 and that their benefits outweigh their risks._

First of all, they have not been "thoroughly tested", it is simply NOT possible in given timeline.  Average time for vaccine development is 10 - 12 years with 86%-90% failure rate.  Add in rapid development and urgency of producing a vaccine and you increase the risks and failure rate of delivering a safe, effective vaccine.  You have R&D, Pre-Clinical Trials (animal), then there are Phase 1, 2 and 3 Trials (human), then it's off to the FDA and if approved, Phase 4 (sick people, follow up).  Even with a SARS vaccine that had been development since 2009, over 300 companies involved, the best of the best working, billions of dollars, the WHO estimated in February 2020 that it would take a minimum of 18 months.  In June 2020, China approved the CanSino vaccine, in August 2020, Russia approved the Sputnik V vaccine (it never went far), in September 2020 the UAE approved the Sinopharm's vaccine for healthcare workers with further use in November, in December 2020 the US approved the Moderna vaccine, the UK approved Oxford/AstraSenecca.  When all these, and other vaccines were approved, the majority weren't even in Phase 3...the efficacy and effective rates being touted were based on computer models.  So in a nutshell, everyone in the world who has received a Covid-19 vaccine, are in fact, part of the Phase 3 Trials, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

Then there is the two statements highlighted in red...suggest folks read it a second and third time, I know that I did. When the vaccine was first released, it was supposed to keep folks from getting Covid and when folks started showing up with Covid after being vaccinated, it was suggested that those folks had been exposed to Covid just prior to receiving the vaccine or during the two weeks it takes for the vaccine to become effective. As more vaccinated folks started showing up with Covid, they came up with "breakthrough infections" and how it was caused by low vaccination rates and variants, but it would prevent "severe" Covid. But now that has changed to just "highly" effective as vaccinated folks are being hospitalized and dying. And blaming the variants on the unvaccinated...that's not how viruses work. If a virus can infect you, it has no reason to mutate, it only mutates when it can't infect you. 

My husband and I have had several long conversation about getting vaccinated; we'd both done extensive research, spoke with medical professionals, spoke with close friends and family to get different opinions, weighed the pros and cons.  My husband is sick...it's been over a decade since he went through radiation therapy that left him disabled and worsening a little more every year.  Even though he is in remission for the cancer, there is no cure or treatment for the damaged caused...the best that can be done is to try and management the worst and it's not much.  So we decided he would get vaccinated first...of course he had to wait for all the "beautiful" people to get vaccinated first before he was eligible, but he finally 'qualified'.  He's still alive, so there is that.  As to whether it actually 'works'...can't say.  He not running around exposing himself, partly because he can't run (sorry, gotta have humor), but mostly because if it doesn't work (it's still an experimental vaccine), he doesn't want to put myself, my daughter (she's had Covid, but there is no guarantee that she is immune) or others at risk.  We'll see what next year brings...in the meantime, we will continue to be cautious around everyone.


----------



## TheGecko

paradisi said:


> The Pfizer, Moderna and J&J vaccines are not experimental.



Yes they are. Vaccine proponents have used carefully selected words that are calculated to provoke an emotional and positive response from those they hope to influence (see how easy it was to turn that statement around).  The simple fact that the vaccines had to be authorized for emergency use means that they were still experimental, elsewise they would have had full approval.  Which by the way, they still have not received (but are pushing for).  And let's not forget shame, fear, bribery and coercion that has been used to entice or force people to force people to get vaccinated.



> We don’t have long-term studies on the safety of vaccines.



Actually we do, but the concern ISN'T isn't about vaccines in general, it's about the Covid-19 vaccine.  So the real concern is:  _We don't have long-term studies on the safety of the Covid-19 vaccine_ and the Response should be:  _This is true.  The FDA only required a minimum of two months of safety data prior to issuing an EUA so we know at least that it's not going to kill you outright.  _



> Fear: I don’t want to get the vaccine because I am scared of the side effects.



This is BS...being worried, having concerns...it's not the same.  This is a 'shame' statement.   



> I can wait and then if I get sick, I can get vaccinated.



The response is stupid.  It should explain what a vaccine in...that it is prevention, NOT treatment.  It also creates confusion with "we are finding that a single dose provides very little protection. Because both doses are required to achieve a robust immune response" statements.  The J&J vaccine is one-shot only vaccine, so aren't folks "fully vaccinated"?  What happens if someone were to get two J&J vaccines because of this misinformation?  Or if someone got confused and mixed up the other two vaccines?  I looked, not a whole lot of information...some conflicting "preliminary results" back in May, but nothing sense then.  While one could say that 'no news is good news', it was the lack of news coming from China that had me stocking (not hoarding) my pantry and freezer a month before SHTF.  



> Some are concerned that vaccine “breakthroughs” mean that the vaccines don’t work.



This is where "carefully selected words that are calculated an emotional and positive response from those they hope to influence" are apropos.  Why can't people just speak simply.  No, no vaccine is 100% effective.  As an example, 15%-20% of folks who get vaccinated against Chickenpox will get Chickenpox, but they probably won't get as sick.  And we are hoping that it will be the same with the Covid-19 vaccines.  Preliminary results are that the majority of the folks being hospitalized are those that are unvaccinated, but we really don't know for sure...they could be part of the folks are who being hospitalized even with the vaccine.  Only time will tell.

When Covid-19 first came out, based on available information and was not being said (equally as important), we figured we were looking at two years.  It's why my pantry and freezer are still fully stocked, why our gas tanks don't go below half, why we keep a little more cash on hand than usual.  And it's why we still wear masks and physical distance because we know that viruses mutate...it's what they do.  It's why the Influenza (flu) vaccine gets retooled every year based on best-guess of what is out there...sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't.


----------



## paradisi

Here's the link. He does answer q's on his blog and on twitter. He's been advising schools as well as the governor.









						A Note to Those who are Confused, Afraid or just Uncertain about Whether to Get the COVID Vaccine
					

Thank you for reading this. First of all, I want you to know that I understand your confusion, your fear and your reservations about the vaccines. This is complicated stuff and unfortunately, there…




					drpatesblog.com


----------



## TheGecko

szaza said:


> Fear is normal in these weird times, but it's not a good guide.



I agree, which is why both sides need to be completely honest instead of playing games.



rdc1978 said:


> Now she feels like everyone is pointing and laughing at her, blaming her or calling her stupid and its making her dig her heels in even more.



They probably are. I was subjected to ridicule by one of my co-workers over my decision to not get the vaccine at this time, boss shut him down real quick. I've lost a few friends because I choose to wear a mask, to wear gloves, to physically distance myself. I ended up in a serious disagreement with my older sister after spending an unmasked, physical close day when she casually mentioned that she was crafting with a bunch of friends in defiance of state orders. What she did with her own life was her business, but her not telling me of her potential exposure, took away my right to make an informed decision. My other sister is one of those who have dug in her heels for her own reasons, but that is her own business and I am respectful of that.



melinda48 said:


> Sadly, the information given is by our medical experts has been changing almost daily. we were initially told masks did not work (come to find out this was because they were afraid there would not be enough for our medical personnel). Then we were told to wear one mask, then two, then none again.



And it continues and it's the reason why I have chosen to wait.  And I accept responsibility for that decision...which is why I still wear a mask, why I still physical distance.


----------



## GemstonePony

TheGecko said:


> I agree, which is why both sides need to be completely honest instead of playing games.
> 
> 
> 
> They probably are. I was subjected to ridicule by one of my co-workers over my decision to not get the vaccine at this time, boss shut him down real quick. I've lost a few friends because I choose to wear a mask, to wear gloves, to physically distance myself. I ended up in a serious disagreement with my older sister after spending an unmasked, physical close day when she casually mentioned that she was crafting with a bunch of friends in defiance of state orders. What she did with her own life was her business, but her not telling me of her potential exposure, took away my right to make an informed decision. My other sister is one of those who have dug in her heels for her own reasons, but that is her own business and I am respectful of that.
> 
> 
> 
> And it continues and it's the reason why I have chosen to wait.  And I accept responsibility for that decision...which is why I still wear a mask, why I still physical distance.


Thank you for being considerate while not getting vaccinated.
 I know a quite a number of individuals who either believe the virus is a hoax or trust in alternative science to prevent it instead of the recommended precautions, or just say masking, distancing, and personal hygiene recommendations infringe on their inalienable rights. And unfortunately, they are quite vocal, so while I'm sure many people are continuing to take precautions while not being vaccinated, they are, at least from my point of view, the vocal minority.
Thank you for sharing your perspective.


----------



## earlene

TheGecko said:


> And herein lies the problem...that anyone who has chosen to not be vaccinated is 'anti-vax'.  I'm not 'anti-vax'...my children were vaccinated.  Because I had Chicken Pox I get a Shingles shot.  Because I enjoy outdoor activities and because I run around barefoot I get a Tetanus shot.  After I was diagnosed with late onset Type II Diabetes I made sure to get an annual Influenza shot.  Last year was the first time I didn't one in almost 20 years, but I didn't feel it was necessary under the circumstances (gloves, masks, physical distancing, etc), but I will be getting one this year.  So...*NOT* anti-vaccine.
> 
> Without question, life in general would be so much easier if I received the vaccine. For one I could dispense with masks, gloves, hand sanitizer, sanitizing wipes and alcohol spritzer...my purse would be lighter, my glove box would be less full, my desk at work would be less cluttered. For another there is a thousand dollar 'bonus' from work...I could use that money to stock up on larger quantities of FOs or maybe get a couple of slab molds and a loaf cutter or maybe a really nice chair for my home office. Best yet, I wouldn't have to deal with all the "you're either with us or you're against us"...sorry to tell folks, but the world is NOT black and white.
> 
> This is from Johns Hopkins...I consider(ed) them, as I believe many people do, to be a leading authority in the medical field:
> 
> _All three vaccines authorized for emergency use by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) have been thoroughly tested and found to be safe and effective in preventing severe COVID-19. They continue to undergo continuous and intense safety monitoring.
> 
> Johns Hopkins Medicine is administering all three COVID-19 vaccines: Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson. We view all three vaccines as highly effective in preventing serious disease, hospitalization and death from COVID-19 and that their benefits outweigh their risks._
> 
> First of all, they have not been "thoroughly tested", it is simply NOT possible in given timeline.  Average time for vaccine development is 10 - 12 years with 86%-90% failure rate.  Add in rapid development and urgency of producing a vaccine and you increase the risks and failure rate of delivering a safe, effective vaccine.  You have R&D, Pre-Clinical Trials (animal), then there are Phase 1, 2 and 3 Trials (human), then it's off to the FDA and if approved, Phase 4 (sick people, follow up).  Even with a SARS vaccine that had been development since 2009, over 300 companies involved, the best of the best working, billions of dollars, the WHO estimated in February 2020 that it would take a minimum of 18 months.  In June 2020, China approved the CanSino vaccine, in August 2020, Russia approved the Sputnik V vaccine (it never went far), in September 2020 the UAE approved the Sinopharm's vaccine for healthcare workers with further use in November, in December 2020 the US approved the Moderna vaccine, the UK approved Oxford/AstraSenecca.  When all these, and other vaccines were approved, the majority weren't even in Phase 3...the efficacy and effective rates being touted were based on computer models.  So in a nutshell, everyone in the world who has received a Covid-19 vaccine, are in fact, part of the Phase 3 Trials, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
> 
> Then there is the two statements highlighted in red...suggest folks read it a second and third time, I know that I did. When the vaccine was first released, it was supposed to keep folks from getting Covid and when folks started showing up with Covid after being vaccinated, it was suggested that those folks had been exposed to Covid just prior to receiving the vaccine or during the two weeks it takes for the vaccine to become effective. As more vaccinated folks started showing up with Covid, they came up with "breakthrough infections" and how it was caused by low vaccination rates and variants, but it would prevent "severe" Covid. But now that has changed to just "highly" effective as vaccinated folks are being hospitalized and dying. And blaming the variants on the unvaccinated...that's not how viruses work. If a virus can infect you, it has no reason to mutate, it only mutates when it can't infect you.
> 
> My husband and I have had several long conversation about getting vaccinated; we'd both done extensive research, spoke with medical professionals, spoke with close friends and family to get different opinions, weighed the pros and cons.  My husband is sick...it's been over a decade since he went through radiation therapy that left him disabled and worsening a little more every year.  Even though he is in remission for the cancer, there is no cure or treatment for the damaged caused...the best that can be done is to try and management the worst and it's not much.  So we decided he would get vaccinated first...of course he had to wait for all the "beautiful" people to get vaccinated first before he was eligible, but he finally 'qualified'.  He's still alive, so there is that.  As to whether it actually 'works'...can't say.  He not running around exposing himself, partly because he can't run (sorry, gotta have humor), but mostly because if it doesn't work (it's still an experimental vaccine), he doesn't want to put myself, my daughter (she's had Covid, but there is no guarantee that she is immune) or others at risk.  We'll see what next year brings...in the meantime, we will continue to be cautious around everyone.


Again, you are taking out of context.  I do not believe that everyone who chooses not to take the vaccine is an anti-vaxxer.  That quote is out of context from my original post.

There are many people who don't take the vaccine for various reasons; some are waiting for more data to proove it is safe; some are so healthy that they feel they are 'stealing' opportunities from those who need it more; some have medical issues that worry them or their doctors advise that the vaccine would complicate their already precarious medical condition; the list goes on.  That is not being an anti-vaxxer and I never said it does.

If you choose to mis-read what I write, fine. But that is NOT what I said.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

melinda48 said:


> Sadly, the information given is by our medical experts has been changing almost daily. we were initially told masks did not work (come to find out this was because they were afraid there would not be enough for our medical personnel). Then we were told to wear one mask, then two, then none again. We chose to take the vaccine due to our ages (we are both over 70). Neither my husband or I have any co-morbidities nor do we take any medications, aside from my blood pressure medicine (yes, we are very fortunate and know it). We took it because it makes sense to do so.


Yes, the information changed as we learned more about the disease. Sadly, in my area many refused to wear masks even when it was mandated. Many don't believe that the vaccine is safe, yet don't wear masks in public and brag about it. Even though I am fully vaccinated, I still wear a mask inside public places and will only eat outside at a restaurant. I know it's going to do little to protect me (i.e. the mask protects the other person), but it's as much a statement as anything. This pandemic is not over.  There is no vaccine for children under 12 yet.  We don't have worldwide herd immunity yet and I believe we all need to continue to be careful until we do.
I pray for us all. I am usually a very positive person and I know I sound like doomsday Sally (my apologies to anyone named Sally), but my gut says that this is not over yet and we need to continue to be vigilant.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

TheGecko said:


> If a virus can infect you, it has no reason to mutate, it only mutates when it can't infect you.


I appreciate your perspective, but this point bothers me. Viruses are likely to  mutate all the time, some make no impact, others make the virus more dangerous. Each time the virus replicates within one's body, it has the potential to mutate. That is why the medical professionals are urging people to be vaccinated. Your immune system will then attack the virus and it will not be able to replicate and therefore not have a chance to mutate.

Below is my reference, but there are others.









						COVID-19 Variants: What You Should Know
					

Believed to be extremely transmissible, BA.2.75 and BA.5 are mutations of the omicron variant. Here’s why that matters.




					health.clevelandclinic.org
				



"All viruses are made up of a bundle of genetic material (either DNA or RNA) that’s covered by a protective coating of proteins. Once a virus gets into your body – usually through your mouth or nose – it latches onto one of your cells. The virus’s DNA or RNA then enters your cell, where it can make copies of itself that go off and infect other cells. If the virus can copy itself and hijack enough of your cells without being wiped out by your immune system, that’s how you get sick.

Every now and then, an error occurs during the virus’s copying process. That’s a mutation.

Most of the time, mutations are so small that they don’t significantly affect how the virus works, or they make the virus weaker, Dr. Rhoads says. But occasionally, a mutation helps the virus copy itself or get into our cells more easily.

“If these advantageous genetic mistakes are included when the virus replicates, they’re passed on and eventually become part of the virus’s normal genome,” Dr. Rhoads explains. We can see these mutations accumulate over time, and that’s how we get new variants of a virus strain. "


----------



## TheGecko

GemstonePony said:


> Thank you for being considerate while not getting vaccinated.
> 
> I know a quite a number of individuals who either believe the virus is a hoax or trust in alternative science to prevent it instead of the recommended precautions, or just say masking, distancing, and personal hygiene recommendations infringe on their inalienable rights. And unfortunately, they are quite vocal, so while I'm sure many people are continuing to take precautions while not being vaccinated, they are, at least from my point of view, the vocal minority.
> 
> Thank you for sharing your perspective.



With rights come responsibilities...we've forgotten that in this country.



Nona'sFarm said:


> I appreciate your perspective, but this point bothers me. Viruses are likely to mutate all the time, some make no impact, others make the virus more dangerous. Each time the virus replicates within one's body, it has the potential to mutate. That is why the medical professionals are urging people to be vaccinated. Your immune system will then attack the virus and it will not be able to replicate and therefore not have a chance to mutate.



I admit that I simplified it, but it still stands as you have illustrated.



earlene said:


> I do not believe that everyone who chooses not to take the vaccine is an anti-vaxxer.



Thank you for clarifying that.


----------



## The_Phoenix

We have reached a point where the only end to this will be global herd immunity. We are not done with this virus and this virus is not done with us. Get vaccinated or don't get vaccinated. Wear your mask or don't wear your mask. I don't really care what people do or don't do. 

It is the rudeness, and personalization of the issue, that I find most appalling and distasteful.


----------



## AliOop

The_Phoenix said:


> We have reached a point where the only end to this will be global herd immunity. We are not done with this virus and this virus is not done with us. Get vaccinated or don't get vaccinated. Wear your mask or don't wear your mask. I don't really care what people do or don't do.
> 
> It is the rudeness, and personalization of the issue, that I find most appalling and distasteful.


EXACTLY, THANK YOU!!


----------



## Misschief

Our area is a vacation destination; we've suddenly become a hot spot again, for two reasons. Firstly, now that inter provincial travel is allowed again, we're being inundated with out of province tourists, many of whom haven't been vaccinated. Secondly, young people who haven't been vaccinated are taking the reopening as permission to party and they're getting sick. We've had numerous outbreaks at local nightclubs and restaurants and it's being blamed primarily on unvaccinated partygoers. 

Before the reopening, our town had approximately 75% of adults vaccinated with their first dose. Just because you're allowed to travel doesn't mean you should and if you are going to travel, make sure you've been vaccinated so you aren't putting yourself or, more importantly, others at risk.


----------



## The_Phoenix

I wanted to note that herd immunity requires the virus to run out of sufficient viable hosts. Which means it runs out of people to kill and/or spread to others. Personally, I prefer not to volunteer for either. But that’s just me…



MLSB said:


> Vaccinate don’t vaccinate every single American has the right to choose without pressure from the Government or other individuals!


Yup, you most certainly have the right to take on the risk of death and infection.


----------



## DKing

Misschief said:


> Our area is a vacation destination; we've suddenly become a hot spot again, for two reasons. Firstly, now that inter provincial travel is allowed again, we're being inundated with out of province tourists, many of whom haven't been vaccinated. Secondly, young people who haven't been vaccinated are taking the reopening as permission to party and they're getting sick. We've had numerous outbreaks at local nightclubs and restaurants and it's being blamed primarily on unvaccinated partygoers.
> 
> Before the reopening, our town had approximately 75% of adults vaccinated with their first dose. Just because you're allowed to travel doesn't mean you should and if you are going to travel, make sure you've been vaccinated so you aren't putting yourself or, more importantly, others at risk.


My husband works right next to a late 20/early 30 something year old.  His roommates have been diagnosed with Covid and now the co worker has to be tested as well before he can come to work.  My question is, what if he was viral before these guys were diagnosed but just wasn't showing symptoms.  My husband and i are just hoping his co worker was clear of the virus the last time they worked together.  It is a little anxiety provoking that we may have to suffer the consequences of people who think they are invincible.   I hope that you are staying safe!


----------



## paradisi

The_Phoenix said:


> I wanted to note that herd immunity requires the virus to run out of sufficient viable hosts. Which means it runs out of people to kill and/or spread to others. Personally, I prefer not to volunteer for either. But that’s just me…


True! Herd immunity did not exist until veterinarians began vaccinating entire herds, which denied the diseases hosts to live and reproduce in. Before that, diseases ran through herds unchecked.


----------



## Misschief

DKing said:


> My husband works right next to a late 20/early 30 something year old.  His roommates have been diagnosed with Covid and now the co worker has to be tested as well before he can come to work.  My question is, what if he was viral before these guys were diagnosed but just wasn't showing symptoms.  My husband and i are just hoping his co worker was clear of the virus the last time they worked together.  It is a little anxiety provoking that we may have to suffer the consequences of people who think they are invincible.   I hope that you are staying safe!


Frustrating, isn't it? We're fine; thankfully, we're both vaccinated (x2) and try to stay away from people but you can't stay away from all the people all the time, yanno? Hopefully, your hubby's coworker caught it after he worked with your hubby. I'm back to wearing my mask when I'm out shopping (it helps with the smoke, too).


----------



## DKing

Misschief said:


> Frustrating, isn't it? We're fine; thankfully, we're both vaccinated (x2) and try to stay away from people but you can't stay away from all the people all the time, yanno? Hopefully, your hubby's coworker caught it after he worked with your hubby. I'm back to wearing my mask when I'm out shopping (it helps with the smoke, too).


It is very frustrating!  We are only vaccinated once so far but I am hoping that his co worker just didn't have it then.  He better be tested before he comes back to work as well.  Nick was asked if he would mind if the co worker worked nights so that they weren't around one another.  I am sorry, but unless they hire someone to come in and disinfect the whole work area before my husband comes in to work each day....that is going to have to be a hard no.  I never stopped wearing my mask when I go into stores.  It is one of the things that I have felt from the beginning would help reduce transmission if everyone was doing it.  Unfortunately about 90% of people don't seem to bother any longer.  I will imagine that if numbers pick up even more, Bonnie Henry is going to shut down Kelowna clubs and restaurants and enforce mask use here again.  I hope so anyhow.  I haven't been inside a restaurant in a year and a half.  I can go longer.  
ps SUPER over all this smoke. meh!!


----------



## rdc1978

DKing said:


> It is very frustrating!  We are only vaccinated once so far but I am hoping that his co worker just didn't have it then.  He better be tested before he comes back to work as well.  Nick was asked if he would mind if the co worker worked nights so that they weren't around one another.  I am sorry, but unless they hire someone to come in and disinfect the whole work area before my husband comes in to work each day....that is going to have to be a hard no.  I never stopped wearing my mask when I go into stores.  It is one of the things that I have felt from the beginning would help reduce transmission if everyone was doing it.  Unfortunately about 90% of people don't seem to bother any longer.  I will imagine that if numbers pick up even more, Bonnie Henry is going to shut down Kelowna clubs and restaurants and enforce mask use here again.  I hope so anyhow.  I haven't been inside a restaurant in a year and a half.  I can go longer.
> ps SUPER over all this smoke. meh!!



Honestly, I guess I just got used to the mask and so like 89% of the time, I just wear it inside public places.  

The biggest place I don't wear it is at the gym, but the gym is so open and airy and never packed, so I think the social distance remains.  

But, in silver lining news, I've saved a bundle on lipstick!  I feel like 10% of the time mask wearing is a pain/chore, but like the other 90% of the time its really not a big deal.  

Anyways, I want to thank you all for this interesting discussion.  I'm hoping that you guys keep it going, I generally like the back and forth. 

However, as an aside, I feel somewhat obligated to say that there is no absolute constitutional right to anything.  I'm not saying anyone said this, but I think this has become a point of contention.


----------



## szaza

rdc1978 said:


> It is hard.
> 
> My aunt is in her late 70s and has multiple comorbities.
> 
> She lives in abject fear of the coronavirus.  She takes multiple precautions, masks, she doesn't go out very often, she NEVER let's anyone in her house and she stays wiping down her groceries with lysol wipes.
> 
> She is essentially a prisoner in her home and she cannot go to family gatherings (if they happen again).
> 
> But she steadfastly refuses the vaccine.
> 
> She shuts down if you even try to bring it up.
> 
> I had a discussion with her about it early on and I think I didn't understand the level of misinformation floating around.  And written in such a way that it's easy to understand and seems to "make sense"
> 
> Now she feels like everyone is pointing and laughing at her, blaming her or calling her stupid and its making her dig her heels in even more.
> 
> I haven't talked to her about it since, but I do worry for her.
> 
> Just at my wits end.



Poor thing! I'm so sorry that she's living in so much fear. 
There are some anti-coronavax articles out there that sound pretty scary if you haven't taken university level cell biology. My mom has some anti-coronavax friends and sometimes sends me articles or videos that scare her. I can generally ease her mind because most of these articles take a wrong turn at one point or another, but I would also be scared to death by them if I didn't have a good basic understanding of biology.
It sounds like your aunt has made up her mind about the vaccination, so I think the only way you can help her now is to be there for her emotionally. She must be suffering so much! Try to stay in touch with her in ways that make her still feel safe.


----------



## TheGecko

The_Phoenix said:


> It is the rudeness, and personalization of the issue, that I find most appalling and distasteful.



I agree, but unfortunately such has become the norm.



MLSB said:


> Why is it that no one talks about the reason for increase in this darn virus????
> 
> with the increased number of illegals who are allowed to come into the USA and who are positive for the virus and then are shuffled off the states which IS THE #1 Reason for the increase in the new strain
> 
> what about the Cleveland Clinic study stating that if you had the virus you don’t need to be vaccinated????? Honestly if you HAD the virus then you ARE protected and I would NEVER take a vaccine.
> 
> this whole new level of control that the current administration is trying to implement on the American people is unlawful and against our freedom which is backed by our constitution!
> 
> Vaccinate don’t vaccinate every single American has the right to choose without pressure from the Government or other individuals!
> 
> honestly until the illegals are STOPPED from entering the USA, we will never see and end to this darn virus increase!



WOW. I certainly hope your can back up all these statements with factual information, but I'll go ahead and give you a hand.

There have been four variants to date...Alpha came out of the UK, Beta came out of South Africa, Gamma came from Brazil and the latest...Delta has come out of India. You are more than welcomed to correct me, but I know of no illegal immigration coming from any of those countries. The folks crossing, or rather trying to cross our southern borders are from Central America and Mexico.

Currently, the only folks from the south that have been allowed in to the US have been unaccompanied minors or minors with adults who are not parents or legal guardians. The majority of these children are being held in camps until their families can be found.

Regarding the Cleveland study...really?  A two paragraph news release with NO links to the actual study and you're accepting it as truth?!?  And did you not read the second paragraph:  

"_This is still a new virus, and more research is needed. It is important to keep in mind that this study was conducted in a population that was younger and healthier than the general population. In addition, we do not know how long the immune system will protect itself against re-infection after COVID-19._"

Please point me to the part of the Constitution that discusses pandemics and vaccinations.

And your last statement makes it very clear that you know absolutely NOTHING about pandemics or how viruses work.  Neither care about the color of your skin, what God or Gods you worship or don't, what your gender is, who you have sex with or what your citizenship status is.  Covid was brought into this country by LEGAL folks who had been traveling and came home.


----------



## TheGecko

The_Phoenix said:


> I wanted to note that herd immunity requires the virus to run out of sufficient viable hosts. Which means it runs out of people to kill and/or spread to others. Personally, I prefer not to volunteer for either. But that’s just me…
> 
> Yup, you most certainly have the right to take on the risk of death and infection.



Seriously...you go from this:  "It is the rudeness, and personalization of the issue, that I find most appalling and distasteful." to saying stuff like the above?


----------



## The_Phoenix

TheGecko said:


> Seriously...you go from this:  "It is the rudeness, and personalization of the issue, that I find most appalling and distasteful." to saying stuff like the above?


Gosh, you’re right.


----------



## rdc1978

szaza said:


> Poor thing! I'm so sorry that she's living in so much fear.
> There are some anti-coronavax articles out there that sound pretty scary if you haven't taken university level cell biology. My mom has some anti-coronavax friends and sometimes sends me articles or videos that scare her. I can generally ease her mind because most of these articles take a wrong turn at one point or another, but I would also be scared to death by them if I didn't have a good basic understanding of biology.
> It sounds like your aunt has made up her mind about the vaccination, so I think the only way you can help her now is to be there for her emotionally. She must be suffering so much! Try to stay in touch with her in ways that make her still feel safe.



Thank you.  

It's hard because sometimes i just want to shake her, because I'm scared for her too!

But I feel bad for her because, as I said before, I know the fear I felt and how much stress it created.  No one wants to die suffocating to death.  

But at this point I keep in touch and we just talk and chat.  I say nothing about vaccinations or the virus or anything and I mostly listen.   

You're right, it's all I can do.  Google is a blessing and a curse.


----------



## BattleGnome

DKing said:


> It is a little anxiety provoking that we may have to suffer the consequences of people who think they are invincible.



if it Would give you piece of mind (and it’s available by you) the binax COVID test that they now sell at Walgreens and Walmart looks to be the same one my work uses (I work in a licensed adult foster care home in the US, we have to give residents weekly tests). It’s just a nose swab and a 15 minute wait.

obviously not 100% but a piece of mind while you wait on the coworker


----------



## DKing

BattleGnome said:


> if it Would give you piece of mind (and it’s available by you) the binax COVID test that they now sell at Walgreens and Walmart looks to be the same one my work uses (I work in a licensed adult foster care home in the US, we have to give residents weekly tests). It’s just a nose swab and a 15 minute wait.
> 
> obviously not 100% but a piece of mind while you wait on the coworker


We live in Canada, and as far as I know, we don't have a for purchase covid test here.  I appreciate the idea though, and wish we had the same resources here.  

@Misschief I called it on masks being required again for Kelowna. I just don't know how they will enforce it with restaurants and clubs still open. There is no way those people are going to be wearing them, and they are the ones driving up the numbers.


----------



## Misschief

DKing said:


> We live in Canada, and as far as I know, we don't have a for purchase covid test here.  I appreciate the idea though, and wish we had the same resources here.
> 
> @Misschief I called it on masks being required again for Kelowna. I just don't know how they will enforce it with restaurants and clubs still open. There is no way those people are going to be wearing them, and they are the ones driving up the numbers.


You did. I wasn't surprised to hear it today. I hate that it's a blanket thing, though. We're doing everything right at our market but we now have to wear them indoors as well. Oh well, I'm just happy I have a number of comfortable masks I don't mind wearing. And on the plus side, they even keep out the smell of the smoke.


----------



## szaza

rdc1978 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> It's hard because sometimes i just want to shake her, because I'm scared for her too!
> 
> But I feel bad for her because, as I said before, I know the fear I felt and how much stress it created.  No one wants to die suffocating to death.
> 
> But at this point I keep in touch and we just talk and chat.  I say nothing about vaccinations or the virus or anything and I mostly listen.
> 
> You're right, it's all I can do.  Google is a blessing and a curse.



That's probably the best you can do for her now, making sure she knows she's loved. I know it's hard.. I have a friend who doesn't want to get vaccinated because she's pregnant (even though that's a huge risk factor if she would get covid). She's afraid of possible long term side effects, even though the chances of those from vaccines are extremely low and she doesn't think about possible long-term negative effects of a covid infection during pregnancy. I thought she might just be really careful not to get infected, but then she hopped on a plane to Burundi a few weeks ago (I think she might already have been in her 3rd trimester by then). I will never understand her logic in making that decision.


----------



## DKing

So my husband's co worker did test positive, but fortunately my husband is negative!  Phew!  That was a big relief but I was pretty confident that he would be negative as neither of us have felt anything coming on, and it has been now a week since the exposure.


----------



## Misschief

DKing said:


> So my husband's co worker did test positive, but fortunately my husband is negative!  Phew!  That was a big relief but I was pretty confident that he would be negative as neither of us have felt anything coming on, and it has been now a week since the exposure.


Thank God!


----------



## penelopejane

melinda48 said:


> And what is the population of New Zealand compared to that of the US? I think we are doing fine considering our numbers.


I would be careful of dismissing NZ and Australia’s response to covid. 

In the USA There have been 1,889 deaths from covid per million population 
In New Zealand 5 deaths per million population
In Australia 36 deaths per million population 

These statistics might be even further apart in actuality because in NZ and Australia all deaths from covid (at home or in hospital) are included in our numbers.



KiwiMoose said:


> I won't be rushing into having a vaccine, but I *may* get one further down the line.  Fortunately for NZers, the issue is not as pressing because we can count on one hand how many active cases there are ( and they are in managed isolation).
> My opinion about the vaccine would no doubt be vastly different were I living in a region that was badly affected by COVID-19.


Kiwimoose we had a few fence sitters in Oz too until this latest Delta strain out break that originated from one unmasked and unvaccinated taxi driver who drove some airline staff to their homes. Now there is a rush to get vaccinated, but, unfortunately we just don’t have enough doses to go around.  At last we have prospects of getting a lot more Pfizer over the next few months. Our borders will be closed at least until the end of the year. Thank goodness for the NZ/Oz bubble!


----------



## KiwiMoose

penelopejane said:


> Kiwimoose we had a few fence sitters in Oz too until this latest Delta strain out break that originated from one unmasked and unvaccinated taxi driver who drove some airline staff to their homes. Now there is a rush to get vaccinated, but, unfortunately we just don’t have enough doses to go around.  At last we have prospects of getting a lot more Pfizer over the next few months. Our borders will be closed at least until the end of the year. Thank goodness for the NZ/Oz bubble!


The only people using that bubble are those who have have families spread across the two countries it seems.  I know that not many Kiwis want to take the risk of flying over there with it being so rampant.  So sorry for you guys with this recent surge in cases.
On a brighter note - many Kiwis are now touring our own country doing all the sight-seeing we've been meaning to do for years!  We can't go overseas, so we look around out own country for a change - and bonus! -  no busloads of tourists getting in our way


----------



## Relle

We are in lockdown until end of August when it will be reviewed, so that's 2 months.  I've had 1 vaccination and the 2nd one is due early sept. 



KiwiMoose said:


> - and bonus! -  no busloads of tourists getting in our way


Unfortunately for Australia and NZ, tourists keep the economy turning over. No tourists, no money for businesses etc. Travelling here at the moment is almost impossible with lockdowns happening at the drop of a hat, between states, so we can't even support our own tourist places. We can't go any further than 10kls from home.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Breaking News:
One case in the community found today - the first since February.  It's unknown yet if it is the Delta variant.  Luckily he has been scanning in on the covid app so we have a trace of where he's been.
Response - Level 4 (highest level) lockdown effective from 11pm tonight for three days until we can see if any other cases evolve. We will know by tomorrow morning if it is the Delta variant, but they are treating it as if it is for now.


----------



## Tara_H

KiwiMoose said:


> Breaking News:
> One case in the community found today - the first since February.  It's unknown yet if it is the Delta variant.  Luckily he has been scanning in on the covid app so we have a trace of where he's been.
> Response - Level 4 (highest level) lockdown effective from 11pm tonight for three days until we can see if any other cases evolve. We will know by tomorrow morning if it is the Delta variant, but they are treating it as if it is for now.


Fingers crossed for you all!


----------



## KiwiMoose

So I awoke to find out it is the Delta variant as suspected.  Four more people have been found in the community connected to this outbreak. This is the first community outbreak since February - all other cases have been in Managed Isolation Quarantine (MIQ) at the border.


----------



## dibbles

@KiwiMoose at least NZ stays on top of things. You are a model in Covid management.


----------



## Relle

KiwiMoose said:


> So I awoke to find out it is the Delta variant as suspected.  Four more people have been found in the community connected to this outbreak. This is the first community outbreak since February - all other cases have been in Managed Isolation Quarantine (MIQ) at the border.


Be aware that it spreads like wildfire, as in NSW, upwards of 400 plus and rising. Our lockdown has been tightened even more, only allowed to travel within your own LGA and for a radius of 5kls outside. Local hospital had a case from oncology.


----------



## KiwiMoose

dibbles said:


> @KiwiMoose at least NZ stays on top of things. You are a model in Covid management.


Yes - that's why we've gone straight into Level 4 lockdown. Many people complain about the country stopping and causing economic hardship, but at least we have learned from the rest of the world and particularly from our neighbours (@Relle ) that we must go in hard and fast to stop the spread.  That's why the decision was made with only 5 hours notice to the general public.
Selfishly, I'm happy about the lockdown because the course convenor was going to run two options for the mid-term test - either come in person and do it on paper like the old days (except open-book), or do it online from wherever you like.  Now I don't have to worry about printing, supervising and marking paper-copy tests. Whew!


----------



## szaza

@KiwiMoose I'm in awe with how well New Zealand has learned from outbreaks in other countries. Keep on giving a good example!


----------



## MLSB

KiwiMoose said:


> So I awoke to find out it is the Delta variant as suspected.  Four more people have been found in the community connected to this outbreak. This is the first community outbreak since February - all other cases have been in Managed Isolation Quarantine (MIQ) at the border.


The tests for the virus can not distinguish  between the different forms of the virus.  Just so you know. Those calling it the delta is a political comment.


----------



## DKing

MLSB said:


> The tests for the virus can not distinguish  between the different forms of the virus.  Just so you know. Those calling it the delta is a political comment.


Actually, they DO have the ability to test for the different strains using the sample on the PCR test.  If the sample is positive, it will then go through genomic sequencing to determine the variant.  It isn't just a political ploy.


----------



## beckster51

@MLSB  I actually think KiwiMoose was reporting on the data that came from her government about which strain of the virus had shown up in NZ.  She was not reporting anything about herself,  I don't think.


----------



## paradisi

MLSB said:


> The tests for the virus can not distinguish  between the different forms of the virus.  Just so you know. Those calling it the delta is a political comment.


Our tiny local health district even can test that & distinguish.  We're at 86% Delta right now, per their info.


----------



## penelopejane

Yes they can tell what variant of covid a person has.  Not only that but they can trace it back to the source in Australia as in "it came from a guy in room 202 of such and such a hotel".  We know this in Australia because we've had so few cases (until this last outbreak) and it has been relatively easy. 
Science is an incredible thing. 

Kiwimoose good on Jacinda Ardern for being proactive.  Our state premier was far too slow - worried about personal approval, maybe.


----------



## KiwiMoose

DKing said:


> Actually, they DO have the ability to test for the different strains using the sample on the PCR test.  If the sample is positive, it will then go through genomic sequencing to determine the variant.  It isn't just a political ploy.


That's correct DKing - they did the genome sequencing overnight to find out if it was Delta or not.
Luckily there is good contact tracing in place and they have managed to locate a few places of interest and asked people to self-isolate for 14 days.  No new cases from this current outbreak have been reported overnight - so we remain at circa 10 infected.  They expect it to go up as high as 125.


----------



## Relle

Today the outbreak is at 633 and rising. Going by the local paper we have 11 in our suburb. We could be in lockdown until christmas.


----------



## lenarenee

Relle said:


> Today the outbreak is at 633 and rising. Going by the local paper we have 11 in our suburb. We could be in lockdown until christmas.



What's the full vaccination rate there Relle?


----------



## Relle

Just watched the news this afternoon, after posting above and it's now 681 new cases overnight. Haven't a clue about vaccination rate, I'll chase that info down, I'm sure it will be on the news tonight.



lenarenee said:


> What's the full vaccination rate there Relle?


----------



## KiwiMoose

Unfortunately, in NZ, because we are fairly on top of the virus as a nation, this also meant that we were late to roll out the vaccinations (not being as urgent as in other countries). The vaccinations for the general public (once the border staff and frontline workers had been done) only started a couple of months ago - starting with the over 65s, then the over 60s, then the over 55s...you get the picture.  We had just got down to the over 50s when this outbreak struck. So only 19% of the population is fully vaccinated, with approx 33% of people having had only the one dose so far.


----------



## Relle

I looked up our LGA and the rates are 30-39% fully vaccinated, 1 dose - 60-69% and some spots 50- 59%. I get my 2nd dose in 2 wks as I had to wait 11 wks inbetween shots. I think the GP's were waiting on the vaccine and it took a while. Dh got done in mid May as he has health issues and he was on the list to get done before me. I think that's when they first started.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Our CDC (U.S.) is recommending a 3rd shot, 8 months after the 2nd shot.  It is believed necessary in order to keep immunity stronger in light of the Delta variant.
I hope we'll get over our political and "rights" issues regarding face masks soon. I sure would feel safer if all those that can, would wear face masks in public places. Based on what health experts currently know that would still help to cut down on the spread of disease. I am really concerned for young children going back to school. Thank goodness in Virginia primary and secondary schools masks will be mandatory for all students and staff this fall and probably through the entire school year.

Do folks in other countries have such strong opposition to wearing face masks for protection or is it a U.S. thing?

Our CDC (U.S.) is recommending a 3rd shot, 8 months after the 2nd shot.  It is believed necessary in order to keep immunity stronger in light of the Delta variant.
I hope we'll get over our political and "rights" issues regarding face masks soon. I sure would feel safer if all those that can, would wear face masks in public places. Based on what health experts currently know that would still help to cut down on the spread of disease. I am really concerned for young children going back to school. Thank goodness in Virginia primary and secondary schools masks will be mandatory for all students and staff this fall and probably through the entire school year.

Do folks in other countries have such strong opposition to wearing face masks for protection or is it a U.S. thing?


----------



## DKing

Nona'sFarm said:


> Do folks in other countries have such strong opposition to wearing face masks for protection or is it a U.S. thing?



We have very vocal opponents to wearing masks here in Canada as well.  I find it ridiculous that people can get so bent out of shape about wearing a mask, like it is some great hardship that is stripping them of their full rights without considering the rights of those who are at a greater risk of lost life due to the virus.  I just shake my head at the arrogance of some people.


----------



## KiwiMoose

We have them here in NZ too. I understand if there are valid health reasons for not wearing them, but those are few and far between. As a glasses-wearer I hate wearing a mask but of course I do, foggy glasses and all ( yes I’ve tried all the tips for non-fogged glasses and they don’t work).
I think those that simply just refuse to wear them because of ‘rights’ are uneducated and have no consideration for others.


----------



## Relle

A couple of weeks ago there were non mask wearers here protesting in the city. Idiots, is all I can say. Masks are compulsory here or you get fined. When it starts to hurt the hip pocket, that's when they comply.


----------



## LynetteO

KiwiMoose said:


> Unfortunately, in NZ, because we are fairly on top of the virus as a nation, this also meant that we were late to roll out the vaccinations (not being as urgent as in other countries). The vaccinations for the general public (once the border staff and frontline workers had been done) only started a couple of months ago - starting with the over 65s, then the over 60s, then the over 55s...you get the picture.  We had just got down to the over 50s when this outbreak struck. So only 19% of the population is fully vaccinated, with approx 33% of people having had only the one dose so far.


I am going to be watching 4 & reading all you posts about your C-19 situation. I live in US, work at an elementary school, in the office but have to “nurse” the children which qualified me to get my C-19 2 shot series in April. I’m back to work already but kids not due until 9/2. Hospitals everywhere are filling up again & everything is OPEN. Oy Vey!

On top of that heard rumor that C-19 may only be good for 5 months. Hope that’s a myth because April-Aug & do t qualifiy for3rd booster that is now being offered.



Nona'sFarm said:


> Our CDC (U.S.) is recommending a 3rd shot, 8 months after the 2nd shot.  It is believed necessary in order to keep immunity stronger in light of the Delta variant.
> I hope we'll get over our political and "rights" issues regarding face masks soon. I sure would feel safer if all those that can, would wear face masks in public places. Based on what health experts currently know that would still help to cut down on the spread of disease. I am really concerned for young children going back to school. Thank goodness in Virginia primary and secondary schools masks will be mandatory for all students and staff this fall and probably through the entire school year.
> 
> Do folks in other countries have such strong opposition to wearing face masks for protection or is it a U.S. thing?


Glad to hear 8 months. I’d heard 5 which is what I’m at now.  Work in elem school office as secretary but fill as needed for sick  children.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

LynetteO said:


> Glad to hear 8 months. I’d heard 5 which is what I’m at now.  Work in elem school office as secretary but fill as needed for sick  children.


I believe if you are immuno - compromised (is this a word?), it is sooner. I believe the priority is going to roll out as before: elderly, health care workers, school personnel, etc. will be given first priority. I think the supply will be provided by the federal government and the distribution handled by the state health departments; so priorities may differ depending on your locality.

And I am so grateful to be in a location in the world where we have this choice/possibility - availability of the covid vaccine. The U.S. has donated and will continue to donate many doses to other countries, but we still have a long way to go to get to global herd immunity.


----------



## TheGecko

I'm in Oregon (USA).  We're back to a mask mandate.  I never really stopped wearing my mask or physically distancing myself from others.  Partly because I chose to not get vaccinated, partly because I'm not stupid...I knew the vaccine wasn't the "end-all, be-all" that the governments and medical field was touting.  Not in the first place, and not in the second place.  And now, not even eight months later, a third vaccination is being recommended...because, you know...the Delta variant.

Along with the mask mandate, the governor has now mandated that all workers in the healthcare and education MUST be vaccinated...excepting child care and colleges/universities (that may change). If you still 'refuse' to get vaccinated, you will be find and mostly likely won't be able to apply for unemployment. And most likely won't be able to get any state or federal aid.

Additionally, there had been heavy pressure placed on large employers to have a similar mandate...get vaccinated or get fired. A friend works at FaceBook and has already been threatened...even though she documentation from two of her doctors that she should NOT be vaccinated.

While I might not be the brightest crayon in God's box, I have a lot of common sense and my nose works well (you can smell the male bovine excrement).

Common sense say there was simply no way the vaccine was going to work; not enough time to properly study this new virus much less make a vaccine that would actually protect against it. And then you have the fact that viruses mutate...it's why the "flu" vaccine gets tweaked every year. So while the "flu" vaccine was tweaked for Covid-19, it has NOT been so for Covid-19 Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Eta, Iota, Kappa, Lambda, Epsilon, Zeta, Theta, R.1, Lineage B.1.1207, Lineage B.1.320 and so on and so forth. Again...not enough time to study the mutation, must less create a vaccine.

The simple fact is...vaccinated people are still getting sick. While the government and media is blaming the unvaccinated, common sense says the numbers when up AFTER the mask mandate and physical distancing rules were lifted. And given the 'blame game' going around...I simply don't trust them when they report that the unvaccinated are sicker than the vaccinated. I mean, it wasn't even two months ago that they claimed that only the unvaccinated were getting sick and then they come up with "breakthrough" cases to explain why vaccinated people were ending up in the hospital.

Yesterday I had to get a Covid test because of potential exposure. The FNP (family nurse practitioner) was friendly enough to give me the good news, but that all changed when when he asked me if I was vaccinated? _No I'm not._  Would I like to get the vaccine today?  _No thank you._ Why not? Personal choice. At that point, he shoved my paperwork at me and abruptly left the room. Yes, I am filing a complaint.

I don't know how it is in other countries, but things are not good here (USA); we are a nation divided...not just against our government, but among the people and Covid is tearing us further apart. You have masked folks attacking folks without masks. You have folks who don't want to wear masks, attacking folks who ask them to wear them. Companies are going to be allowed to fire unvaccinated folks, or treat them like leapers if they can't be vaccinated or chose not to be vaccinated, or charge a financial penalty. And while it may be a stretch, I thought the preceding was a stretch too, how long before we are required to show proof of vaccine before obtaining services and goods? Like flying to see your kids or grandkids? Don't scoff. Though it has been extended, we already need to have a Real ID (enhanced DL) or passport to fly within the country. Whose to say that by the end of the year, you will need to show your 'papers' before you can get on a city bus to go to work? Or that you need to have a leaky pipe fixed or your furnace serviced or get your oil changed, but have to show proof of vaccination first. Or you won't be allowed to enter a grocery store with it? Seems rather dystopian, but look at where we are today.


----------



## TheGecko

Nona'sFarm said:


> I believe the priority is going to roll out as before: elderly, health care workers, school personnel, etc. will be given first priority.



They said that with the first round, but it isn't what happened.  Just like before, folks high in the government, along with folks who have money and fame will get theirs first.  The elderly and the poor will be last.


----------



## rdc1978

I believe vaccinated people still account for a very small number of cases.  Even with the delta variant, and an even smaller number of hospitalizations. 

People have pointed to this small city in Maine? I think to show that vaccination doesn't help transmission.  But I think that data has been mischaracterized.  

Basically a very small town hosts a "bear week" where gay men have a week of.....socializing.  The town population swells to about 60k.  And a lot of these are gay men who are maybe there to meet other gay men for the week.  This isn't some like political convention and it's not comic con.  It's a place where people from around the country go to meet a type of gay man they find attractive.  

Given its a small town and a lot of people and probably quite a bit of... intimate socializing in very tight, enclosed spaces its a dream situation for transmission of an airborne virus with asymptotic spread.  

The big news, to me, is that out of like 60,000 mostly vaccinated people only 578 even tested positive for the virus. 

That's like .78% transmission.  Had this been an unvaccinated population I think the transmission rate would have been much, much, much higher. So that suggests to me that the vaccine is effective. 

However it served as the basis for rethinking mask guidance for the vaccinated indoors. 

While vaccinated people carry as much viral load as the unvaccinated for the delta variant, in the first and original iteration vaccinated people, even in breakthrough cases had less viral load.  

And even with the delta variant, I believe that the tcell response has still been very good amongst the vaccinated, which IIRC means less time sick because the tcell response destroys the infected cells.  

I think that had we gotten to 70+% vaccination early on we may have achieved herd immunity and wouldn't have needed a booster.  Early testing seemed to, and still does show a degree of vaccine protection against the delta variant.  But for those who are not vaccinated its maybe a bit more of an issue.  

I can provide linked cites to everything except my last point.  I had a discussion about this a week or two ago and had to show my work.  If anyone wants to see them I can dig them up.  

@TheGecko.   I have also heard type of mask matters.  I know you're not getting vaccinated so I wanted to bring this to you attention so you're as safe as possible


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## paradisi

Stats in my state show vaccinated account for about 0.4% of infections. 

And we're in the midst of a terrible surge, a woman with a hobo spider bite had to have her foot amputated this week because *the unvaccinated* have filled all local and regional hospitals and she wasn't able to get transferred from her tiny overloaded hospital to the regional ...overloaded.. hospital for critical care.  
By the time there was a spot for her, all they could do was amputate her foot.

Yes vaccines work. And they free up medical care for others.

Telling yourself they don't really work as an excuse to not get vaccinated is too bad not just for you, but for everyone around you. 

If unvaccinated were on their own planet, and not consuming all medical resources *for everyone*, that would be different.... but in the reality we have, the unvaccinated by choice are choosing to  endanger everyone else.


----------



## Relle

lenarenee said:


> What's the full vaccination rate there Relle?


As of yesterday the rate is 30.1% fully vaccinated and 53.6% have had the 1st dose.

We are now in lockdown until the end of Sept. The hotspot areas (not us) have a curfew starting Monday from 9pm - 5am, exercise for 1 hr a day only and masks outside if not exercising.

Gov. looking into a vaccine passport added on to QR codes for logging into venues. As far as flying etc, looks like we will need a vaccine passport for that too, which is no different than when years ago you were flying O/S and had to have typhoid/cholera and smallpox vaccinations.


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## Relle

KiwiMoose, noticed your delta variant cases are now up to 11. We started with 1 and look at us now, all because of 1 person and it was brought into the country via a cabin crew.


----------



## lenarenee

TheGecko said:


> They said that with the first round, but it isn't what happened.  Just like before, folks high in the government, along with folks who have money and fame will get theirs first.  The elderly and the poor will be last.



Really? I’m surprised. Was this the case in Oregon?  like most people with friends and relatives all over the US, no one had any difficulties getting a timely shot when they were eligible.  Our county nursing homes were done within days of eligibility.…state and private.  

I heard scuttlebutt out of Florida that preferential treatment was given to leaders and families before they were eligible, but I didn’t bother to verify.

Now, it was difficult for the non computer skilled elderly in our church to schedule shots, because the pharmacies and county services posted appointment times online which were quickly taken as people like me could and would check several times daily.  But that’s when doctors, pharmacies, county services, volunteers, etc. started helping.


----------



## lenarenee

Relle said:


> As of yesterday the rate is 30.1% fully vaccinated and 53.6% have had the 1st dose.
> 
> We are now in lockdown until the end of Sept. The hotspot areas (not us) have a curfew starting Monday from 9pm - 5am, exercise for 1 hr a day only and masks outside if not exercising.
> 
> Gov. looking into a vaccine passport added on to QR codes for logging into venues. As far as flying etc, looks like we will need a vaccine passport for that too, which is no different than when years ago you were flying O/S and had to have typhoid/cholera and smallpox vaccinations.



I was just curious about what parameters were causing lockdowns in different places, and what that might mean for my area.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Relle said:


> KiwiMoose, noticed your delta variant cases are now up to 11. We started with 1 and look at us now, all because of 1 person and it was brought into the country via a cabin crew.


Keep up! LOL.  We are now at 51.  They are expecting a rapid increase from now, and have extended the Level 4 (maximum) national lockdown until Tuesday evening for reassessment.  At that stage it is likely that they will continue at level four in the two main cities, Auckland and Wellington, as that is where the current cases are.  But who knows what tomorrow will bring?  The 'places of interest' include many pubs and nightclubs in Auckland - so it's more the demographic that will encourage the spread ( ie young folk that like to go out to heavily populated drinking venues).  They've also got a few Auckland university students in there who were attending lectures before knowing they had it.


----------



## rdc1978

lenarenee said:


> Really? I’m surprised. Was this the case in Oregon?  like most people with friends and relatives all over the US, no one had any difficulties getting a timely shot when they were eligible.  Our county nursing homes were done within days of eligibility.…state and private.
> 
> I heard scuttlebutt out of Florida that preferential treatment was given to leaders and families before they were eligible, but I didn’t bother to verify.
> 
> Now, it was difficult for the non computer skilled elderly in our church to schedule shots, because the pharmacies and county services posted appointment times online which were quickly taken as people like me could and would check several times daily.  But that’s when doctors, pharmacies, county services, volunteers, etc. started helping.



I'll never forget watching an interview with a doctor at an inner city hospital in a poor, undeserved area when the vaccine first came out and hospitals got doses.  

In what have been the most judicious way possible, he talked about how he had never seen so many Mercedes, BMW, Teslas, Aston Martin's and Bentleys in the parking lot before.  

Turns out all the rich hospital board members had were getting vaccinated first.  

But to your point, once it was my turn (March 15) I got a vaccination appointment the same day.


----------



## lenarenee

rdc1978 said:


> I'll never forget watching an interview with a doctor at an inner city hospital in a poor, undeserved area when the vaccine first came out and hospitals got doses.
> 
> In what have been the most judicious way possible, he talked about how he had never seen so many Mercedes, BMW, Teslas, Aston Martin's and Bentleys in the parking lot before.
> 
> Turns out all the rich hospital board members had were getting vaccinated first.
> 
> But to your point, once it was my turn (March 15) I got a vaccination appointment the same day.



Hmmm.  Interesting. That's a much smaller population than I was imagining from reading Gecko's post. I was thinking thousands or tens of thousands of entitled people jumping the line.  Situations like hospital board members misusing their jobs are smaller, less obvious to the general public.


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## Relle

KiwiMoose said:


> Keep up! LOL.  We are now at 51.  They are expecting a rapid increase from now, and have extended the Level 4 (maximum) national lockdown until Tuesday evening for reassessment.  At that stage it is likely that they will continue at level four in the two main cities, Auckland and Wellington, as that is where the current cases are.  But who knows what tomorrow will bring?  The 'places of interest' include many pubs and nightclubs in Auckland - so it's more the demographic that will encourage the spread ( ie young folk that like to go out to heavily populated drinking venues).  They've also got a few Auckland university students in there who were attending lectures before knowing they had it.


OK, behind with the numbers, don't say Oz doesn't give you anything, it came from us. Nothing like that open here, all pubs, clubs etc. closed. There is no elective surgery, closed all breast screens ( stupid they did that ),as from Monday, all bunnings (oh no) and plant nurseries closed ( what will we do -lol). I need to get some tomato plants to put in for summer. Spotlight and Lincraft closed ( don't need any wool - hehe). I don't think we have levels. One good thing it's going to be 25 C here Sunday and 27 C Monday. Yeah. Another thing good about covid, no sales people knocking on the door. Woohoo.


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## KiwiMoose

Relle said:


> OK, behind with the numbers, don't say Oz doesn't give you anything, it came from us. Nothing like that open here, all pubs, clubs etc. closed. There is no elective surgery, closed all breast screens ( stupid they did that ),as from Monday, all bunnings (oh no) and plant nurseries closed ( what will we do -lol). I need to get some tomato plants to put in for summer. Spotlight and Lincraft closed ( don't need any wool - hehe). I don't think we have levels. One good thing it's going to be 25 C here Sunday and 27 C Monday. Yeah. Another thing good about covid, no sales people knocking on the door. Woohoo.


Yes it's been traced back to the NSW outbreak> We should never have increased our bubble but the Govt had pressure put on them.


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## Tara_H

Just had lunch in a public café! Probably the first time since Covid began! We had to show proof of full immunization at the door and all the things were individually wrapped, but other than that, fairly normal.  The more strange thing was being in town at all, that hasn't been an option an awful lot for a while...


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## Mobjack Bay

I had to go to the grocery store late afternoon yesterday.  I estimated that 2/3 of the people did not have a mask on.  Ugh.  I go to my office and don’t worry about it because everyone I work with is vaccinated and overall our satellite campus is now at >90% vaccinated.  We may even be at >95%, but we’re back to wearing masks unless we‘re in our offices alone. Based on state guidance to the universities and our own public health team, our chief operating officer is telling us that, with masks up for all, there is very minimal risk of getting infected even when interacting with someone who is carrying the virus. Following the public health guidance very, very closely has made all the difference. Through all of the pandemic, there have been no documented cases of on-campus transmission among 400 people, even when individuals have been infected off-campus and then come to campus where they potentially exposed others before they realized they were infected. Our campus community is about 30-35% 21-35 year olds - graduate level science students, research technicians and junior level scientists. If anything, they’ve been some of the most careful.


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## DKing

I only wish we had low numbers like NZ!  Our health region is not doing too well, and I am pretty sure our city is the epicenter of Canada's current covid cases.  The central Okanagan, where I, and @Misschief live, had 922 cases from Aug 8 to the 14th, and numbers have only risen from there but I don't have the stats on those right now to be accurate.  It is a little nerve wracking to be honest.  It is driven mostly by the younger generation who have not been vaccinated but come to our town to party.  We are a tourist destination and the news of our high rates has not been keeping people away, even though we are also dealing with multiple forest fires in surrounding areas, so on top of the virus, we have had to deal with some of the worst air quality in the world over the past month and a bit.  
Our son, who lives with us, works in healthcare and is in a care home where there is a current outbreak, although he works on a different floor from where it currently is. Who says it will stay on that floor? We know multiple people now who have had the Delta variant (under 35 ages) and they have said it was either the worst virus they have ever dealt with or it felt like a regular flu....most said the worst flu they have ever had though. I do not want to get this as I have had a couple really bad flus in my life and I do not want a repeat, plus being in the 50+ age catagory makes me feel a little more vulnerable. So far my husband and I have only had one dose of the vaccine but will be eligible for our second one shortly which will hopefully make me feel a little more protected. My husband is regularly having to go to the hospital as his dad is in there in pretty bad condition (elderly with dementia and a bad gastric bleed) and our hospital is loaded with covid cases so just being there is risky imo. I will be happy when this situation is over! The only good thing about this virus has been that it has made us assess our lives more and we decided it was foolish to keep saving for retirement since there are no guarantees we will get there. So we bought a new boat, a new to us truck and camper and we are planning to do way more camping and exploring once we are able. I will be so grateful when (if) life gets to return to a more normal state.


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## Tara_H

Compliance here is pretty good, at least the places we've been going. Masks are mandatory everywhere inside anyway and I haven't personally heard anyone complaining.
Thankfully my workplace is still on remote-only and everyone is pretty productive that way - I think in the long run they're looking at 50% working from home being the standard for everyone.


----------



## beckster51

Mobjack Bay said:


> I had to go to the grocery store late afternoon yesterday.  I estimated that 2/3 of the people did not have a mask on.  Ugh.  I go to my office and don’t worry about it because everyone I work with is vaccinated and overall our satellite campus is now at >90% vaccinated.  We may even be at >95%, but we’re back to wearing masks unless we‘re in our offices alone. Based on state guidance to the universities and our own public health team, our chief operating officer is telling us that, with masks up for all, there is very minimal risk of getting infected even when interacting with someone who is carrying the virus. Following the public health guidance very, very closely has made all the difference. Through all of the pandemic, there have been no documented cases of on-campus transmission among 400 people, even when individuals have been infected off-campus and then come to campus where they potentially exposed others before they realized they were infected. Our campus community is about 30-35% 21-35 year olds - graduate level science students, research technicians and junior level scientists. If anything, they’ve been some of the most careful.


Hooray for you and your campus!  Following the science and using critical thinking really does foster having the best outcomes.  There are bumps in the road, but without doubt, the best outcomes.  You must be very relieved to be working in such a wise environment!


----------



## Misschief

DKing said:


> I only wish we had low numbers like NZ!  Our health region is not doing too well, and I am pretty sure our city is the epicenter of Canada's current covid cases.  The central Okanagan, where I, and @Misschief live, had 922 cases from Aug 8 to the 14th, and numbers have only risen from there but I don't have the stats on those right now to be accurate.  It is a little nerve wracking to be honest.  It is driven mostly by the younger generation who have not been vaccinated but come to our town to party.  We are a tourist destination and the news of our high rates has not been keeping people away, even though we are also dealing with multiple forest fires in surrounding areas, so on top of the virus, we have had to deal with some of the worst air quality in the world over the past month and a bit.
> Our son, who lives with us, works in healthcare and is in a care home where there is a current outbreak, although he works on a different floor from where it currently is. Who says it will stay on that floor? We know multiple people now who have had the Delta variant (under 35 ages) and they have said it was either the worst virus they have ever dealt with or it felt like a regular flu....most said the worst flu they have ever had though. I do not want to get this as I have had a couple really bad flus in my life and I do not want a repeat, plus being in the 50+ age catagory makes me feel a little more vulnerable. So far my husband and I have only had one dose of the vaccine but will be eligible for our second one shortly which will hopefully make me feel a little more protected. My husband is regularly having to go to the hospital as his dad is in there in pretty bad condition (elderly with dementia and a bad gastric bleed) and our hospital is loaded with covid cases so just being there is risky imo. I will be happy when this situation is over! The only good thing about this virus has been that it has made us assess our lives more and we decided it was foolish to keep saving for retirement since there are no guarantees we will get there. So we bought a new boat, a new to us truck and camper and we are planning to do way more camping and exploring once we are able. I will be so grateful when (if) life gets to return to a more normal state.


My husband went to pick up some beer the other night and there was a group of young adults in the store; when told that masks were mandatory, their reply was "We're from Alberta", as if that exempts them from mask wearing. It's that kind of attitude from the tourists around here that is, imho, fuelling our high Covid rate. It's incredibly frustrating.

Our vaccination rate (for local residents) is pretty high; approximately 83% of British Columbians have had their first shot and 74% are fully vaccinated. And yet, our local hospital is filled to capacity with Covid patients, the majority of whom are not vaccinated at all and are in the 25-40 age range.


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## Mobjack Bay

beckster51 said:


> Hooray for you and your campus!  Following the science and using critical thinking really does foster having the best outcomes.  There are bumps in the road, but without doubt, the best outcomes.  You must be very relieved to be working in such a wise environment!


I am relieved.  Our researchers have been able to do their work, in their labs and out on boats. It’s not being done as efficiently as it was pre-covid, but it’s getting easier. Getting the work done means that we don’t have to have layoffs or furloughs. I think that helps to keep everyone motivated.


----------



## DKing

@Misschief   Did you hear that Kelowna alone is getting between 100-150 cases diagnosed daily?  Our vaccination rates have been lower than the provincial average, but they are now picking up thankfully.  I am more than a little frustrated with some of the Albertan vacationers.  Not only for their determination to not wear masks, but I also saw a post in one of my groups where a large group of all Albertans were camping with a campfire burning.  We are having the worst fire season on record and the laws are clear about no fires, but they come here and do as they please.  It certainly does nothing to improve BC/Alberta relations when there is this kind of public disrespect being seen.  Of course there are Albertan tourists coming and being fully respectful, but the ones that push the boundaries make the people of BC resentful.  I can imagine we have our jerks going there and making people mad too.  We have gotten to a time in the world where so many people are arrogant and have no respect for others.


----------



## Misschief

DKing said:


> @Misschief   Did you hear that Kelowna alone is getting between 100-150 cases diagnosed daily?  Our vaccination rates have been lower than the provincial average, but they are now picking up thankfully.  I am more than a little frustrated with some of the Albertan vacationers.  Not only for their determination to not wear masks, but I also saw a post in one of my groups where a large group of all Albertans were camping with a campfire burning.  We are having the worst fire season on record and the laws are clear about no fires, but they come here and do as they please.  It certainly does nothing to improve BC/Alberta relations when there is this kind of public disrespect being seen.  Of course there are Albertan tourists coming and being fully respectful, but the ones that push the boundaries make the people of BC resentful.  I can imagine we have our jerks going there and making people mad too.  We have gotten to a time in the world where so many people are arrogant and have no respect for others.


@DKing Yup, I'm aware of all of that. Even though our provincial government is begging people not to vacation here this year, it isn't doing much good. 

I know there are visitors who do respect our situation but those who are here because... duh.. vacation! (said with a whole lot of sarcasm).... are thinking only of themselves and really don't care what we, as locals, are going through. (high Covid rates and forest fires all around us)


----------



## DKing

Misschief said:


> @DKing Yup, I'm aware of all of that. Even though our provincial government is begging people not to vacation here this year, it isn't doing much good.
> 
> I know there are visitors who do respect our situation but those who are here because... duh.. vacation! (said with a whole lot of sarcasm).... are thinking only of themselves and really don't care what we, as locals, are going through. (high Covid rates and forest fires all around us)


You are absolutely correct!  This is not the time to be coming here on vacation as we need any space we have available (hotels, etc) to house those displaced by the fires, and of course we don't want people potentially spreading covid.  Everyone should stay in their own regions.  My husband and I want to go on vacation badly, but we are staying home to be respectful.  I can tell you it is hard when you have all these new shiny toys that you want to use, but it just isn't the right time.   Once this concern is over we are going away for a couple of weeks!  I worry it will get a lot worse before it is over though.


----------



## TheGecko

lenarenee said:


> Really? I’m surprised. Was this the case in Oregon? like most people with friends and relatives all over the US, no one had any difficulties getting a timely shot when they were eligible.



And therein lies the problem...eligibility. Originally healthcare workers, teachers, essential workers, residents over 65 or who were high risk were supposed to be vaccinated first. Then it was changed to just healthcare workers in hospitals, urgent care, memory care and first responders. The 1b group was supposed to be healthcare works in long-term care facilities and residents, hospice programs, mobile care, guards in jails, and folks who worked in group homes (but not the residents). And no, the residents in LT Care weren't getting vaccinated. The 1c group was supposed to be outpatient places that worked with high risk patients, but not the patients themselves. The 1d group was everyone else in the healthcare industry.

Then the Groups were scrapped in favor of Phases with Sub-Groups; that didn't work out so well either.  It wasn't until May/June that the vaccine was made available to the general population.  My husband, over 60 and high risk was finally able to get vaccinated in June.  In general, it's been a cluster you-know-what.



rdc1978 said:


> I have also heard type of mask matters. I know you're not getting vaccinated so I wanted to bring this to you attention so you're as safe as possible



Appreciate the information though there is a bit of a problem with your numbers. First is that 578/60000 is .96%, not .78%. I'm just doing a blanket number since I can't find any information that specifically breaks down vaccinated/unvaccinated persons. I even went to Provincetown's Covid section and could find no information on how many of their residents are vaccinated/unvaccinated.

The second is with the 60,000.  The first is that "Bear Week" was cancelled again this year...though there was an "informal" gathering of some folks.  And the site that provides information it, say that it attracts around 10,000 people, far less than the 60,000 you stated. According to the CDC, there was a Covid outbreak in Provincetown associated with "multiple summer events and large public gatherings" between July 3 and 17th. There were 469 cases identified during that time with roughly three-quarters of those cases among full vaccinated people.  So let's say...3000 residents, 3000 visitors, 65% vaccinated.  252/3900=9% Vaccinated.  117/2100=5% Unvaccinated.  Seems to me that you're almost twice as likely to come down with Covid if vaccinated that if unvaccinated.  But those are just raw numbers...lots of other factors can come into play.  

It's funny that you should mention masks.  When I got my Covid test, I was told that my mask was not good enough, that I had to wear one of the those blue paper ones that you find all over the place.  Even after I pointed out that my mask was made with four layers of dense cotton fabric with a charcoal insert containing two more layers of fabric, they insisted theirs was 'better'.  No problem...I just put my mask over it.

I think that there is a bit of a misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault. At the present time I have chosen to not get vaccinated, not that I have chosen to not get vaccinated at all. Again, there simply has not been enough time for Covid to be fully studied, much less have a truly effective vaccine and this is proving to be true. There are a lot of folks like myself...not enough time, vaccine is experimental, too much misinformation and the whole 'carrot and stick' approach. Why do you have to bribe people to start with? If it's supposed to be the 'end-all, 'be-all', why aren't people jumping on the bandwagon? Why are so many medical professionals remaining unvaccinated? Which bring us to the 'stick'...threatening folks with getting fired? And not only getting fired, but that won't get unemployment? Or that they can get 'fined'?

As for "herd immunity"...I'm not sure if you understand what exactly is, I know I had to look it up myself. To have it, you first HAVE to have "immunity"...meaning you can't catch, you can't spread it. We don't have that with the vaccine...not only can vaccinated people still get Covid, they can spread it. Until the vaccine provides immunity, it's not going to matter how many people are vaccinated as evidenced by Israel. As of now, they have the highest...78%...yet they are seeing the same 'surge' as everyone else. They say it's because their vaccinations rates aren't high enough. They say it's because the vaccine's effectiveness wanes after about six months. They say it's because of the Delta variant, which the vaccine doesn't protect against.


----------



## lenarenee

@TheGecko Must be the way your state handled it then. Sounds incredibly inefficient. In San Diego he would have been eligible in March; possibly sooner depending on category of health issue. How awful to to have to wait that long for someone truly in need!


Israel is actually at about 58% vaccinated. They’re 78% in terms of the eligible population…which is over 16, instead of 12 unless that changed in recent days. And the teens and young adults have a very high vaccine hesitancy rate, so that’s another reason for the 58%. But, yeah. Those little details aren’t usually mentioned in the news.  Very few Palestinians are vaccinated, but I don’t know if they’re included in the stats or not.


----------



## TheGecko

lenarenee said:


> @TheGecko Must be the way your state handled it then. Sounds incredibly inefficient. In San Diego he would have been eligible in March; possibly sooner depending on category of health issue. How awful to to have to wait that long for someone truly in need!
> 
> 
> Israel is actually at about 58% vaccinated. They’re 78% in terms of the eligible population…which is over 16, instead of 12 unless that changed in recent days. And the teens and young adults have a very high vaccine hesitancy rate, so that’s another reason for the 58%. But, yeah. Those little details aren’t usually mentioned in the news.  Very few Palestinians are vaccinated, but I don’t know if they’re included in the stats or not.



Our state has been a mess since day one...everything is heavily politically driven.  Outside of the metro area and the two college towns...everything else is conservative and 'rural', and folks pay the price.  

When all this mess started last year, I went into Mama Bear mode. By the time our state went into lockdown, I was well prepared and 18 months later...still prepared. My husband, darling man that he is, bought another set of shelves for soaping this last month since I had given up mine for our pantry. While moving stuff around he found my stash of ammo (some of my first purchases).

I pray that I never have to use it outside of the range, but as I noted above...we're a nation divided. especially in this state.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Misschief said:


> @DKing Yup, I'm aware of all of that. Even though our provincial government is begging people not to vacation here this year, it isn't doing much good.
> 
> I know there are visitors who do respect our situation but those who are here because... duh.. vacation! (said with a whole lot of sarcasm).... are thinking only of themselves and really don't care what we, as locals, are going through. (high Covid rates and forest fires all around us)


See now, in NZ, they would not be allowed to enter or leave a level 4  (lockdown) zone.  We had this once before in February, when there was a small outbreak in Auckland and the borders were patrolled by police to ensure compliance.  The difference being that being in a very narrow part of the country there are very few roads in and out.  Usually what happens is that when lockdown is imminent, all the (rich) Aucklanders hop in their cars are head to their holiday homes on the coast. Tracing (QR) codes must be used at any supermarkets or health services accessed during this time.
NZ's Level 3 is more lenient - but masks are still mandatory in populated places, and there are to be no gatherings of more than 10 people.  Travel between regions is still restricted, but you can travel within your own city.  Bubbles can be extended beyond your immediate household to include extended family and friends.
Once we get down to Level 2 I can go back to work and we can hold tutorials ( of no more than 25 students) as long as they are spaced 1 metre apart. We can't hold lectures though because we have over 500 students in our cohort. We are not allowed gatherings of more than 100 people.


----------



## Misschief

KiwiMoose said:


> See now, in NZ, they would not be allowed to enter or leave a level 4  (lockdown) zone.  We had this once before in February, when there was a small outbreak in Auckland and the borders were patrolled by police to ensure compliance.  The difference being that being in a very narrow part of the country there are very few roads in and out.  Usually what happens is that when lockdown is imminent, all the (rich) Aucklanders hop in their cars are head to their holiday homes on the coast. Tracing (QR) codes must be used at any supermarkets or health services accessed during this time.
> NZ's Level 3 is more lenient - but masks are still mandatory in populated places, and there are to be no gatherings of more than 10 people.  Travel between regions is still restricted, but you can travel within your own city.  Bubbles can be extended beyond your immediate household to include extended family and friends.
> Once we get down to Level 2 I can go back to work and we can hold tutorials ( of no more than 25 students) as long as they are spaced 1 metre apart. We can't hold lectures though because we have over 500 students in our cohort. We are not allowed gatherings of more than 100 people.


Part of the problem we have here is that each province has their own Provincial Health Officer who sets the guidelines for each province (keep in mind that our provinces are larger than a lot of countries). Provincial Health Officers are the ones who decide the level of shut down (or opening) in their provinces as they're the ones who have the best picture of what's happening in their regions. We also have a Chief Public Health Officer for Canada, who oversees the national guidelines. For instance, Dr. Theresa Tam, the CPHO advises the government on whether or not national borders should be shut down or opened up, depending on what's happening across the country and in the US. The PHO for each province decides whether or not travel can be allowed within their own province.

At one point, our PHO, Dr. Bonnie Henry, discouraged travel between BC's health regions (there are 6). It was down to essential travel only and, yes, they did have police check points between some regions.

What's happening here now is that Alberta (next province over) has opened everything up, including travel; they've since had to implement some safety measures again because of spikes in transmission. A lot of Albertans have second homes here and those Albertans have been insisting on coming to their summer homes because they're "residents and tax payers and have the *right *to travel to their homes". Travel is now allowed (discouraged but allowed). And, they're bringing friends. A lot of the younger crowd (25-40) in Alberta haven't been vaccinated but, because travel is allowed, they're travelling.

It's disheartening for those of us who live here because we had some of the lowest transmission rates in the country this past spring. It was pretty much under control, which is why orders were relaxed. And, once travel was again allowed, our rates here have become the highest in the province. The locals are NOT happy and I fear that there could be some push back down the road if things aren't handled correctly.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

TheGecko said:


> They said that with the first round, but it isn't what happened.  Just like before, folks high in the government, along with folks who have money and fame will get theirs first.  The elderly and the poor will be last.


Perhaps it depends on your location. That was not my experience in our area. People I know in the high priority groups were allowed to sign up first. As far as the poor, they had a bi-weekly clinic set up by the free food pantry in our area.
I'm disappointed it wasn't the same for everyone.


----------



## Lindy Lou

May I recommend visiting the following website:  www.americasfrontlinedoctors.org

Some very good resources to educate yourself further about the the virus and the shots.


----------



## AliOop

@Lindy Lou I appreciate hearing from all sides, and listening to all points of view regarding the safety and efficacy of the vaccine. I am not anti-vaxx (had them all in the past except flu vaccine, bc I don't get the flu). But I do have great concerns about this one, especially with so many medical professionals refusing it at the cost of losing their jobs.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

As reported by ABC *news* the group America’s Frontline Doctors “has been widely discredited for spreading disinformation about the coronavirus and unproven treatments, and social media platforms have removed its content.” The group’s founder, Simone Gold, was *arrested* (and has now been indicted) for charges related to the attack on the US Capitol.

edited for clarity


----------



## rdc1978

@TheGecko  - I'm tagging you because I can't seem to get your quote in here and my post.  

Thanks for the response, which made me to back to recheck the figures from the past week since so much of the information was off the top of my head.

In the summer, the town's population swells to 60k - but these are not all "bear week" participants, though the timeline does overlap with the unofficial "Bear Week."  and July 4th.  Between July 3 and July 17, which there were a number of large events, including bear week (official or unofficial) there were 469 cases. One could argue that the 60,000 population did not specifically occur during that time frame, but given that there were a number of large public gatherings, and July 4, and Bear Week, it seems more likely than not that this is the period during which the population experiences that dramatic increase.  

If one were to accept the 60,000 population between July 3 and July 17, there were 469 cases of COVID in a largely vaccinated population, which is 0.78%.  Of those 469 cases, 74% of those who contracted the virus were vaccinated, so,..according to Alexa that's about 347 cases of vaccinated people contracting COVID, which is .57% of 60,000. 

I'd still say that that is a very small number of cases, and I would have expected more at large public gatherings if the vaccine weren't effective.

And since 85% of the cases were male, it suggests that these were cases from the bear week festivities.  If you were there with family, or a mixed group, I would think you'd have a more even distribution among women and children, who can also contract the virus and would be tested through contact tracing. .  Even if there were 10,000 people for bear week, 85% of the 469 reported cases is about 398 cases.  So, even though that percentage would be higher, its at or about 4%, still well within a 95% protection estimate.  I probably would agree all the male cases were not from bear week.  But I'd say that  even if you were to assume that, during a week when people were in a perfect situation for asymtomatic spread and only 4% got covid, thats not only a good result, but its a result, I believe, that is within the 95% protection touted by the vaccine makers and the traditional medical community.  Even if you were to assume that only 7000 people showed up for unofficial bear week and that all 398 male cases occurred during bear week, thats a little over 5%.  Given how good the conditions would have been for asymptomatic spread that still seems really low.  Its absolutely possible my numbers and math are wrong, I did not go to math school!

The article I'm linking to indicated that the area has a large population of vaccinated people and even the visitors who contracted the virus were largely vaccinated, which is why the 74% figure may also be a little confounding.  If the percentage of people with the vaccine increases, its more likely that any cases of the virus will be in  someone who is vaccinated.  For instance - If you have a town of 10,000 people were 9,993 are vaccinated and two vaccinated people contract the virus, you can technically say that 100% of the cases are among the vaccinated, while completely ignoring that only two people contracted the virus at all. 

Additionally, even with the outbreak, five people were hospitalized and no one died.  So, a 1% hospitalization rate, and a 0% death rate among the infected.  So even if one wanted to argue that they stand the exact same chance of getting covid with or without the vaccine, the data continues to support only a small number of hospitalizations among the vaccinated with breakthrough infections.









						Posts Misinterpret CDC’s Provincetown COVID-19 Outbreak Report - FactCheck.org
					

Social media posts are misinterpreting the results of a Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report, which found 74% of people in a COVID-19 outbreak were vaccinated, to argue against immunization. But experts say the statistic is misleading without more context -- and doesn’t mean that...




					www.factcheck.org
				




The article I'm linking from the Mayo Clinic does not seem to suggest that people must be 100% immune from the virus or fully unable to transmit the virus in order for herd immunity to be achieved.  From my read of the article, if you have 95% protection and a vaccine that boosts t-cell response to get the virus out of your body faster, then the virus has fewer viable hosts and opportunity to spread, because even when the rare person does get it, they are not able to spread it for as long.  And they are largely within the herd that has 95% immunity and will likely not get it, but even if they do the virus is less likely to stay around as long.  The article says that "Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community (the herd) becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely."  And the word unlikely, to me, suggests that transmission need not be impossible, but unlikely. 









						Herd immunity and COVID-19: What you need to know
					

Get the facts about coronavirus and herd immunity.




					www.mayoclinic.org
				




The AMA has indicated that 96% of doctors are vaccinated.  So, while there may be people in the medical community that choose not to get vaccinated, it appears that people who have spent, at least four years dedicated to the study of medicine and whose job it is to provide high level care for patients have chosen to get vaccinated.  And 45% of those who were not vaccinated planned to get vaccinated. 









						AMA survey shows over 96% of doctors fully vaccinated against COVID-19
					

New data point toward high COVID-19 vaccine confidence among practicing physicians.




					www.ama-assn.org
				




If I trust everyone is acting in their best interest, then I have to trust that doctors are doing the same.  And doctors in private practice, as far as I know, are not required to get vaccinated.  So, to me, that suggests that people most familiar with medicine and medical treatments, medical science and medical risk have, by and large, determined that vaccination is in their best interest. 

@TheGecko - I know you are very likely frustrated and feel a lot of pressure.  And you want to take time to make your decision, but I hope that you continue to consider all the sources available to you.  I think the road is a little harder for those who want to do a lot of independent research because many of us are not experts in the field, and to me, I don't know anyones job as good as they know it so I do the best I can to understand the data, but I cannot contextualize it like an expert could.  I think you're an attorney too, and it kinda reminds me of people who have read their pocket constitution , but they aren't able to contextualize the information because they don't really know the applicable case law, areas of law  that may implicate constitutional law or precedent cases or even ideas like dual sovereignty.  

And, just know that I hope you stay happy and healthy no matter what.  Its like 4 am, so I'm a little loopy and I feel like I should thank you for coming to my TedTalk.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

rdc1978 said:


> The article I'm linking from the Mayo Clinic does not seem to suggest that people must be 100% immune from the virus or fully unable to transmit the virus in order for herd immunity to be achieved.  From my read of the article, if you have 95% protection and a vaccine that boosts t-cell response to get the virus out of your body faster, then the virus has fewer viable hosts and opportunity to spread, because even when the rare person does get it, they are not able to spread it for as long.  And they are largely within the herd that has 95% immunity and will likely not get it, but even if they do the virus is less likely to stay around as long.  The article says that "Herd immunity occurs when a large portion of a community (the herd) becomes immune to a disease, making the spread of disease from person to person unlikely."  And the word unlikely, to me, suggests that transmission need not be impossible, but unlikely.


This is my understanding of herd immunity as well. 
But it doesn't mean immunity can't wane, and thus the need for boosters. And because a virus can mutate as it replicates in someone's body, there will probably be a need for tweaks. Currently  the data indicate the benefits far outweigh the risks. It can be a really tough decision. And as I have said many times, I still wish everyone, who can, would wear masks in group settings and public places.


----------



## Lindy Lou

Mobjack Bay said:


> As reported by ABC *news* the group America’s Frontline Doctors “has been widely discredited for spreading disinformation about the coronavirus and unproven treatments, and social media platforms have removed its content.” The group’s founder, Simone Gold, was *arrested* (and has now been indicted) for charges related to the attack on the US Capitol.
> 
> edited for clarity


Although this is not meant to start an argument, I would question the Main Stream Media, on a great deal of things.  This website is not disinformation.  I still recommend it.  Peace...


----------



## paradisi

Viruses can and do mutate. Look at how the flu vaccine each autumn is a bit different, to account for that. 

The idea that somehow because the current vaccine isn't 100% effective in prevention and transmission,  and therefore not to be trusted, is an idea taken from the playbook of antivaxxers trying to scare people off childhood vaccines. 

It's not true, and one ought to ask oneself why people pressing that idea never apply that standard to the alternatives they are selling.

Speaking of the flu... it usually kills many thousands each winter in the US, and deaths from flu dropped dramatically last winter, because of masking and distancing and closures.

I'm old enough to have had relatives who got polio, and remember my parents' summer fear before the polio vax came out. My Mom knew people who'd lost family to smallpox. 

Those examples in front of our family as I was growing up make it easy for me to see why vaccination is utterly necessary and useful. Perhaps younger folks who don't remember a time before now, when people died all the time from those diseases, don't fully grasp the gravity of the situation they set up by not vaccinating.

*The americas frontline doctors group is, frankly, quacks. A prominent YT vidder from that group is prevented from practicing in any of his regional hospitals because of his well known quackery.


----------



## lenarenee

Mobjack Bay said:


> As reported by ABC *news* the group America’s Frontline Doctors “has been widely discredited for spreading disinformation about the coronavirus and unproven treatments, and social media platforms have removed its content.” The group’s founder, Simone Gold, was *arrested* (and has now been indicted) for charges related to the attack on the US Capitol.
> 
> edited for clarity



I looked into this group (looked up their alleged credentials)  many months ago as a friend of mine asked my opinion on their concerns. At that time; many of those doctors were not even medical professionals, or even held Ph.d in any field.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I’ve added the word _endemicity_ to my vocabulary:









						How the Pandemic Now Ends
					

Cases of COVID-19 are rising fast. Vaccine uptake has plateaued. The pandemic will be over one day—but the way there is different now.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## TheGecko

rdc1978 said:


> I know you are very likely frustrated and feel a lot of pressure. And you want to take time to make your decision, but I hope that you continue to consider all the sources available to you. I think the road is a little harder for those who want to do a lot of independent research because many of us are not experts in the field, and to me, I don't know anyones job as good as they know it so I do the best I can to understand the data, but I cannot contextualize it like an expert could. I think you're an attorney too, and it kinda reminds me of people who have read their pocket constitution , but they aren't able to contextualize the information because they don't really know the applicable case law, areas of law that may implicate constitutional law or precedent cases or even ideas like dual sovereignty.
> 
> And, just know that I hope you stay happy and healthy no matter what. Its like 4 am, so I'm a little loopy and I feel like I should thank you for coming to my TedTalk.



Yes, it is incredibly frustrating when trying to make an informed decision only to have folks treat you like you're an idiot.  NOT to pick on the OP, but when I read stuff like this:  _Following the science and using critical thinking really does foster having the best outcomes. There are bumps in the road, but without doubt, the best outcomes. You must be very relieved to be working in such a wise environment!_ It just makes me angry because I HAVE been following the science***, I have been thinking critically.

And to be honest, you're not helping either because what you have just said above...that because I'm not an "expert", I can't possibly understand.

No, I'm not an attorney though I did work as a paralegal and ran my own LPD business.  These days I'm a Senior Staff Accountant for a CPA firm and even though I don't have a degree in business, finance or accounting, those that do consult with me quite frequently.

With that said.....

- You don't need to be an 'expert' to see that there has been a lot of misinformation and conflicting information regarding Covid, or how heavily it was politized (by both sides). Just type it in into any search engine and you will find millions of links...Google gave me 4,220,000 results in 0.62 seconds. Of course, you'll have to use multiple search engines to see the full scope since so many of them limit how far they go back or even what they show. Best to go your local library and pull old newspapers and magazines.

- You don't need to be an 'expert' to know that studying a new disease or virus takes time. Yes, I understand that Covid-19 is part of the 'family of coronaviruses that usually cause mild to moderate upper-respiratory tract illnesses, like the common cold', but therein lies the problem. And I understand that because of SARS and MERS the scientific community was able to quickly identify it as a coronaviruses and start developing strategies for diagnostics, treatments and possible a vaccine, but...this was not SARS or MERS...this was something new.

- You don't need to be an 'expert' to know that it takes time to develop develop treatments, medications, vaccines and hopefully a cure. On the average it takes 10 to 15 years for vaccine development...which is pretty **** good considering that it took 22 years from the initial development to approval for Chicken Pox vaccine. Again, no doubt that development of the Covid-19 vaccine was jump started with previous research with SARS and MERS, but both were still in Pre-Clinicals (animal testing). I get it, we're in the midst of a global pandemic...countries are shut-down, businesses are closed, millions of people are out of work, a lot of people are getting sick, some are even dying. Governments threw billions of dollars in to R&D and then took the most promising of what was being developed and authorized emergency use of...when you consider that there are over 20 vaccines in five categories (RNA, DNA, Adenovirus Vector, Inactivated Virus and Subunit)...the biggest Phase 3 trial ever in history.

- And you sure a heck don't need to be an 'expert' to see what what is missing or what is deliberately being ignored or gets spun...kind like the source that you cited. I was really dizzy after reading it.

_“When a new vaccine is introduced into a population, when vaccination rates become very high, we can expect as many and sometimes more cases in the vaccinated population than the unvaccinated — even when the vaccine is doing its job and protecting people at a high rate — because the denominator of number of people vaccinated is so large,”_

Does that makes sense to anyone?  And doesn't it contradict:

_While it’s not known how many visitors to Provincetown were vaccinated, anecdotally many of them were, and data from the state show that prior to the outbreak, virtually everyone in the town had received at least one dose of a vaccine, with 85% or more of each age group fully vaccinated.

“The 74% needs to be put in the context that a very high proportion of the people exposed were vaccinated,” said Hanage. “It suggests that in the absence of vaccination the outbreak would have been much larger.”_

So let's say 60,000 and 85% fully vaccinated.  That's 51,000 vaccinated and 9000 unvaccinated.  Out of 60,000 folks, 469 folks came down with Covid-19; 74% were fully vaccinated, 26% were not.  347 folks out of 51,000 is 0.007 or 0.7%.  122 folks out of 9000 is 0.013 or 1.3%.  So technically...it was.

This is the kind of stuff that keeps a lot of people from being vaccinated...feeling like they are being sold a bill of goods. And truth be told...they have been, they still are. But honesty is a double-edge sword. How many of you, had you been told:

_So we have these vaccines.  They've only been tested with a small number of people so they are still experimental.  We know what some of the short-term side effects, but we have no clue what the long-term effects will be because it's only been a few months.  Computer models suggest that it's 90% effective against Covid-19, but we really don't know because it's only been a few months.  And then there is the issues that viruses mutate and so we don't if it will work against them because we don't know what they will be.  We also don't know how long the vaccine will last because again, not enough time._ 

Would have gotten vaccinated?  

But before you answer consider this: There are approximately 333 Million people in the US with 253K cases (0.08%) and 3k deaths (0.001%) to date. We KNOW that masks and physical distancing work, we saw the numbers go down starting in March 2020 and then saw spikes around the Thanksgiving/Christmas holiday 2020 and around Spring Breaks 2021. And we've seen the surge since mandates were dropped in June/July. Speaking solely for myself, until Phase 3 is complete, I think I have better odds of winning the lottery.


----------



## rdc1978

TheGecko said:


> Yes, it is incredibly frustrating when trying to make an informed decision only to have folks treat you like you're an idiot.  NOT to pick on the OP, but when I read stuff like this:  _Following the science and using critical thinking really does foster having the best outcomes. There are bumps in the road, but without doubt, the best outcomes. You must be very relieved to be working in such a wise environment!_ It just makes me angry because I HAVE been following the science***, I have been thinking critically.
> 
> And to be honest, you're not helping either because what you have just said above...that because I'm not an "expert", I can't possibly understand.
> 
> No, I'm not an attorney though I did work as a paralegal and ran my own LPD business.  These days I'm a Senior Staff Accountant for a CPA firm and even though I don't have a degree in business, finance or accounting, those that do consult with me quite frequently.
> 
> With that said.....
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to see that there has been a lot of misinformation and conflicting information regarding Covid, or how heavily it was politized (by both sides). Just type it in into any search engine and you will find millions of links...Google gave me 4,220,000 results in 0.62 seconds. Of course, you'll have to use multiple search engines to see the full scope since so many of them limit how far they go back or even what they show. Best to go your local library and pull old newspapers and magazines.
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to know that studying a new disease or virus takes time. Yes, I understand that Covid-19 is part of the 'family of coronaviruses that usually cause mild to moderate upper-respiratory tract illnesses, like the common cold', but therein lies the problem. And I understand that because of SARS and MERS the scientific community was able to quickly identify it as a coronaviruses and start developing strategies for diagnostics, treatments and possible a vaccine, but...this was not SARS or MERS...this was something new.
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to know that it takes time to develop develop treatments, medications, vaccines and hopefully a cure. On the average it takes 10 to 15 years for vaccine development...which is pretty **** good considering that it took 22 years from the initial development to approval for Chicken Pox vaccine. Again, no doubt that development of the Covid-19 vaccine was jump started with previous research with SARS and MERS, but both were still in Pre-Clinicals (animal testing). I get it, we're in the midst of a global pandemic...countries are shut-down, businesses are closed, millions of people are out of work, a lot of people are getting sick, some are even dying. Governments threw billions of dollars in to R&D and then took the most promising of what was being developed and authorized emergency use of...when you consider that there are over 20 vaccines in five categories (RNA, DNA, Adenovirus Vector, Inactivated Virus and Subunit)...the biggest Phase 3 trial ever in history.
> 
> - And you sure a heck don't need to be an 'expert' to see what what is missing or what is deliberately being ignored or gets spun...kind like the source that you cited. I was really dizzy after reading it.
> 
> _“When a new vaccine is introduced into a population, when vaccination rates become very high, we can expect as many and sometimes more cases in the vaccinated population than the unvaccinated — even when the vaccine is doing its job and protecting people at a high rate — because the denominator of number of people vaccinated is so large,”_
> 
> Does that makes sense to anyone?  And doesn't it contradict:
> 
> _While it’s not known how many visitors to Provincetown were vaccinated, anecdotally many of them were, and data from the state show that prior to the outbreak, virtually everyone in the town had received at least one dose of a vaccine, with 85% or more of each age group fully vaccinated.
> 
> “The 74% needs to be put in the context that a very high proportion of the people exposed were vaccinated,” said Hanage. “It suggests that in the absence of vaccination the outbreak would have been much larger.”_
> 
> So let's say 60,000 and 85% fully vaccinated.  That's 51,000 vaccinated and 9000 unvaccinated.  Out of 60,000 folks, 469 folks came down with Covid-19; 74% were fully vaccinated, 26% were not.  347 folks out of 51,000 is 0.007 or 0.7%.  122 folks out of 9000 is 0.013 or 1.3%.  So technically...it was.
> 
> This is the kind of stuff that keeps a lot of people from being vaccinated...feeling like they are being sold a bill of goods. And truth be told...they have been, they still are. But honesty is a double-edge sword. How many of you, had you been told:
> 
> _So we have these vaccines.  They've only been tested with a small number of people so they are still experimental.  We know what some of the short-term side effects, but we have no clue what the long-term effects will be because it's only been a few months.  Computer models suggest that it's 90% effective against Covid-19, but we really don't know because it's only been a few months.  And then there is the issues that viruses mutate and so we don't if it will work against them because we don't know what they will be.  We also don't know how long the vaccine will last because again, not enough time._
> 
> Would have gotten vaccinated?
> 
> But before you answer consider this: There are approximately 333 Million people in the US with 253K cases (0.08%) and 3k deaths (0.001%) to date. We KNOW that masks and physical distancing work, we saw the numbers go down starting in March 2020 and then saw spikes around the Thanksgiving/Christmas holiday 2020 and around Spring Breaks 2021. And we've seen the surge since mandates were dropped in June/July. Speaking solely for myself, until Phase 3 is complete, I think I have better odds of winning the lottery.



But I don't think you're an expert and you don't assert that you are. Wouldn't you agree that being an expert in a particular field gives you greater knowledge and ability to understand your field of study or career?  This is why we send people to school, this is why employers ask for prior experience.  Because being an expert does allow for better understanding than that of a non expert.

This is in any field.  No one should trust me to build a bridge or design a bridge.  Even if the bridge was to my own house.  I can read all the articles I want on bridge building and design but there is a reason why a bridge expert should design and build the bridge and not me.

Your point is similar to my own.   As a non expert, my decisions are going to be more about WHO I trust and which information sources I think are trustworthy.

Because as a non expert I do not have the background, nor the education and expertise to put the raw data into context.

What I linked didn't seem particularly confusing.  The vaccine takes 2 weeks after the second dose to become fully effective.  If a population is largely vaccinated at the same time, People who get cases in that time are going to largely be vaccinated.  It didn't seem that confusing to me.

I think "introduced" and "new vaccine" may have been skimmed over in your review of the article and so no, the first quotes passage doesn't contradict the second quoted passage you cited.

I'm not sure why the numbers would make you feel distrustful.  By any analysis the percentage of overall  cases low.   And by your analysis less than 1% of vaccinated and over 1% of unvaccinated.

However, a large number of vaccinated people who were likely exposed but did not contract or spread the virus would have helped to protect many of the unvaccinated from exposure.

I'm not sure why any of this would prompt someone not to get vaccinated.

I think that if I were faced with a medical decision with various potential risks and benefits. I'd discuss my decision with an expert who could help me better understand the landscape and context in which to consider each factor.  In my case it would be my doctor.

And this isn't just in medicine.  I also don't do my own taxes and entrust them to an expert.

Let me ask you this.  Exactly what will you need to see and over what period of time before you'd feel comfortable getting vaccinated?  

If this is too personal, I apologize but you've been comfortable sharing the reasons why you won't get vaccinated and that you aren't an anti vaxxer so I didn't think it would be too intrusive a question.


----------



## KiwiMoose

My brain hurts


----------



## Mobjack Bay

For those who don’t have the time to read the article I linked above, here are some of my major take aways. The SARS CoV-2 virus is now here to stay. It is destined to become endemic, like the other covid viruses. The key to getting this variant under control, and stopping/reducing the public health crises we’re seeing yet again, is to slow the spread by using *all* of the tools in the toolbox - vaccinations, masks and other public health methods/precautions. The delta variant is highly transmissible, with an estimated R0 of 5-9. That’s 2-3 times what it was for the original variant(s). The probability of a new, more “successful” variant popping up goes up the longer the delta variant lingers in the population. Pockets of unprotected individuals can spread the virus very quickly, while pockets of vaccinated people transmit less on average because they carry viral loads for less time if they do become infected. Regardless of vaccination status, following public health guidance strictly helps to slow transmission due to reduced contact and “barrier” protection. On average, the vaccinated will be much less susceptible to the ravages of the disease and some/many will never know they were infected. Although that’s good news for the vaccinated for now, the impacts at societal and global levels on the pathway to endemicity are going to depend on the net effects of measures taken at all levels.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Mobjack Bay said:


> I’ve added the word _endemicity_ to my vocabulary:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How the Pandemic Now Ends
> 
> 
> Cases of COVID-19 are rising fast. Vaccine uptake has plateaued. The pandemic will be over one day—but the way there is different now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com


Love learning new words!


----------



## Susie

Co-vid is here to stay. We will have co-vid vaccines offered each year just like flu vaccines. (Pneumonia vaccines are only necessary every 10 years, so I am leaving them out of this conversation.)

The current vaccines/boosters are the same vaccine, just that if you have not been exposed to Co-vid in between the original set of vaccines and now, your immunity is waning. It was NEVER intended to provide 100% immunity to all variants of this virus. We (anyone who studied what an RNA virus is to begin with, not just medical professionals) knew this was going to mutate, and mutate fast. The only idea behind getting the vaccine was to keep the cases down to a manageable level so the hospitals could continue to provide care long enough to let both the "natural" (meaning you get sick) immunity and the immunity provided by the vaccine protect enough of the population to prevent a mass die off of the population due to lack of hospital beds/staff/ventilators. 

And in case anyone spouts that this is not as bad as last year, let me correct you. This is far, far worse. Last year we had mask mandates in Texas and mandatory shut downs.  This year, we have mayhem as hospital after hospital shuts its doors to incoming patients. I spoke Friday to hospital after hospital that quoted that they had anywhere between 8-30 people lined up waiting for every bed in the hospital. Not every ICU bed or every ventilator. Every bed. 

And while I am not pointing fingers at anyone in this forum, let me tell you what Texas and Louisiana are seeing. It is NOT the vaccinated people taking up hospital beds. The vaccinated are managing their mild cases at home. It is the unvaccinated. Because, you see, no one in the US had ANY immunity to this germ before it came over here. And that means deaths.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Mobjack Bay said:


> For those who don’t have the time to read the article I linked above, here are some of my major take aways. The SARS CoV-2 virus is now here to stay. It is destined to become endemic, like the other covid viruses. The key to getting this variant under control, and stopping/reducing the public health crises we’re seeing yet again, is to slow the spread by using *all* of the tools in the toolbox - vaccinations, masks and other public health methods/precautions. The delta variant is highly transmissible, with an estimated R0 of 5-9. That’s 2-3 times what it was for the original variant(s). The probability of a new, more “successful” variant popping up goes up the longer the delta variant lingers in the population. Pockets of unprotected individuals can spread the virus very quickly, while pockets of vaccinated people transmit less on average because they carry viral loads for less time if they do become infected. Regardless of vaccination status, following public health guidance strictly helps to slow transmission due to reduced contact and “barrier” protection. On average, the vaccinated will be much less susceptible to the ravages of the disease and some/many will never know they were infected. Although that’s good news for the vaccinated for now, the impacts at societal and global levels on the pathway to endemicity are going to depend on the net effects of measures taken at all levels.


This realization several days ago threw me into a mental health funk, as I call it - a day of crying at the drop of a hat, deep frustration,  anger, grief - you name it, lots of negative emotions. I am pulling out of it. I know that I can only control my actions, so will continue to follow safe practices. This will include wearing masks in public places, not eating indoors with strangers, staying 6 feet from strangers, getting my 3rd vaccine shot when eligible. But you know I am just so dang tired of all this. 
Being outside helps me tremendously to get back my equilibrium, so hopefully the weather will get better here soon and I can spend lots of time outdoors.



TheGecko said:


> Yes, it is incredibly frustrating when trying to make an informed decision only to have folks treat you like you're an idiot.  NOT to pick on the OP, but when I read stuff like this:  _Following the science and using critical thinking really does foster having the best outcomes. There are bumps in the road, but without doubt, the best outcomes. You must be very relieved to be working in such a wise environment!_ It just makes me angry because I HAVE been following the science***, I have been thinking critically.
> 
> And to be honest, you're not helping either because what you have just said above...that because I'm not an "expert", I can't possibly understand.
> 
> No, I'm not an attorney though I did work as a paralegal and ran my own LPD business.  These days I'm a Senior Staff Accountant for a CPA firm and even though I don't have a degree in business, finance or accounting, those that do consult with me quite frequently.
> 
> With that said.....
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to see that there has been a lot of misinformation and conflicting information regarding Covid, or how heavily it was politized (by both sides). Just type it in into any search engine and you will find millions of links...Google gave me 4,220,000 results in 0.62 seconds. Of course, you'll have to use multiple search engines to see the full scope since so many of them limit how far they go back or even what they show. Best to go your local library and pull old newspapers and magazines.
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to know that studying a new disease or virus takes time. Yes, I understand that Covid-19 is part of the 'family of coronaviruses that usually cause mild to moderate upper-respiratory tract illnesses, like the common cold', but therein lies the problem. And I understand that because of SARS and MERS the scientific community was able to quickly identify it as a coronaviruses and start developing strategies for diagnostics, treatments and possible a vaccine, but...this was not SARS or MERS...this was something new.
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to know that it takes time to develop develop treatments, medications, vaccines and hopefully a cure. On the average it takes 10 to 15 years for vaccine development...which is pretty **** good considering that it took 22 years from the initial development to approval for Chicken Pox vaccine. Again, no doubt that development of the Covid-19 vaccine was jump started with previous research with SARS and MERS, but both were still in Pre-Clinicals (animal testing). I get it, we're in the midst of a global pandemic...countries are shut-down, businesses are closed, millions of people are out of work, a lot of people are getting sick, some are even dying. Governments threw billions of dollars in to R&D and then took the most promising of what was being developed and authorized emergency use of...when you consider that there are over 20 vaccines in five categories (RNA, DNA, Adenovirus Vector, Inactivated Virus and Subunit)...the biggest Phase 3 trial ever in history.
> 
> - And you sure a heck don't need to be an 'expert' to see what what is missing or what is deliberately being ignored or gets spun...kind like the source that you cited. I was really dizzy after reading it.
> 
> _“When a new vaccine is introduced into a population, when vaccination rates become very high, we can expect as many and sometimes more cases in the vaccinated population than the unvaccinated — even when the vaccine is doing its job and protecting people at a high rate — because the denominator of number of people vaccinated is so large,”_
> 
> Does that makes sense to anyone?  And doesn't it contradict:
> 
> _While it’s not known how many visitors to Provincetown were vaccinated, anecdotally many of them were, and data from the state show that prior to the outbreak, virtually everyone in the town had received at least one dose of a vaccine, with 85% or more of each age group fully vaccinated.
> 
> “The 74% needs to be put in the context that a very high proportion of the people exposed were vaccinated,” said Hanage. “It suggests that in the absence of vaccination the outbreak would have been much larger.”_
> 
> So let's say 60,000 and 85% fully vaccinated.  That's 51,000 vaccinated and 9000 unvaccinated.  Out of 60,000 folks, 469 folks came down with Covid-19; 74% were fully vaccinated, 26% were not.  347 folks out of 51,000 is 0.007 or 0.7%.  122 folks out of 9000 is 0.013 or 1.3%.  So technically...it was.
> 
> This is the kind of stuff that keeps a lot of people from being vaccinated...feeling like they are being sold a bill of goods. And truth be told...they have been, they still are. But honesty is a double-edge sword. How many of you, had you been told:
> 
> _So we have these vaccines.  They've only been tested with a small number of people so they are still experimental.  We know what some of the short-term side effects, but we have no clue what the long-term effects will be because it's only been a few months.  Computer models suggest that it's 90% effective against Covid-19, but we really don't know because it's only been a few months.  And then there is the issues that viruses mutate and so we don't if it will work against them because we don't know what they will be.  We also don't know how long the vaccine will last because again, not enough time._
> 
> Would have gotten vaccinated?
> 
> But before you answer consider this: There are approximately 333 Million people in the US with 253K cases (0.08%) and 3k deaths (0.001%) to date. We KNOW that masks and physical distancing work, we saw the numbers go down starting in March 2020 and then saw spikes around the Thanksgiving/Christmas holiday 2020 and around Spring Breaks 2021. And we've seen the surge since mandates were dropped in June/July. Speaking solely for myself, until Phase 3 is complete, I think I have better odds of winning the lottery.


I appreciate your perspective and thoughts, even though the right choice for me is vaccination. I personally feel I have better odds of not getting seriously ill, making others ill, or giving this virus a chance to create more dangerous variants by being vaccinated.  I applaud you, that you are wearing masks, keeping physical distancing, etc.


----------



## Gaisy59

Susie said:


> Co-vid is here to stay. We will have co-vid vaccines offered each year just like flu vaccines. (Pneumonia vaccines are only necessary every 10 years, so I am leaving them out of this conversation.)
> 
> The current vaccines/boosters are the same vaccine, just that if you have not been exposed to Co-vid in between the original set of vaccines and now, your immunity is waning. It was NEVER intended to provide 100% immunity to all variants of this virus. We (anyone who studied what an RNA virus is to begin with, not just medical professionals) knew this was going to mutate, and mutate fast. The only idea behind getting the vaccine was to keep the cases down to a manageable level so the hospitals could continue to provide care long enough to let both the "natural" (meaning you get sick) immunity and the immunity provided by the vaccine protect enough of the population to prevent a mass die off of the population due to lack of hospital beds/staff/ventilators.
> 
> And in case anyone spouts that this is not as bad as last year, let me correct you. This is far, far worse. Last year we had mask mandates in Texas and mandatory shut downs.  This year, we have mayhem as hospital after hospital shuts its doors to incoming patients. I spoke Friday to hospital after hospital that quoted that they had anywhere between 8-30 people lined up waiting for every bed in the hospital. Not every ICU bed or every ventilator. Every bed.
> 
> And while I am not pointing fingers at anyone in this forum, let me tell you what Texas and Louisiana are seeing. It is NOT the vaccinated people taking up hospital beds. The vaccinated are managing their mild cases at home. It is the unvaccinated. Because, you see, no one in the US had ANY immunity to this germ before it came over here. And that means deaths.


Well said!


----------



## LynetteO

Mobjack Bay said:


> I’ve added the word _endemicity_ to my vocabulary:
> 
> https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/08/delta-has-changed-pandemic-/619726/


*LOVE* new words & what a GREAT article! However, I kept thinking, did I miss this word? Then I saw it! “ *Endemicity was always the likely outcome—I wrote as much in March 2020.” *
Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Megan

TheGecko said:


> But before you answer consider this: There are approximately 333 Million people in the US with 253K cases (0.08%) and 3k deaths (0.001%) to date. We KNOW that masks and physical distancing work, we saw the numbers go down starting in March 2020 and then saw spikes around the Thanksgiving/Christmas holiday 2020 and around Spring Breaks 2021. And we've seen the surge since mandates were dropped in June/July. Speaking solely for myself, until Phase 3 is complete, I think I have better odds of winning the lottery.



These numbers are nowhere near what reputable sources like John's Hopkins/ the CDC are reporting. There have been 37,583,545  cases in the US and the current number of deaths is 625,375  in the US alone. Morbidity is around 1.67%. Which is high...much higher than it should have been.


----------



## Susie

Megan said:


> These numbers are nowhere near what reputable sources like John's Hopkins/ the CDC are reporting. There have been 37,583,545  cases in the US and the current number of deaths is 625,375  in the US alone. Morbidity is around 1.67%. Which is high...much higher than it should have been.



But morbidity is heading much lower than last year. We have treatments this year, and a whole lot of time under our belt to understand this virus. There is hope. It is going to get better. We just have to hang in there and get enough herd immunity for this to become nothing worse than the flu. And yes, I know people die from the flu, but there are people refusing that vaccine also.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Nona'sFarm said:


> This realization several days ago threw me into a mental health funk, as I call it - a day of crying at the drop of a hat, deep frustration,  anger, grief - you name it, lots of negative emotions. I am pulling out of it. I know that I can only control my actions, so will continue to follow safe practices. This will include wearing masks in public places, not eating indoors with strangers, staying 6 feet from strangers, getting my 3rd vaccine shot when eligible. But you know I am just so dang tired of all this.
> Being outside helps me tremendously to get back my equilibrium, so hopefully the weather will get better here soon and I can spend lots of time outdoors.


I get it. We will be welcoming a new cohort of students to our campus next week and I‘m having to work hard to feel the excitement and anticipation that usually come so easily this time of year.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Mobjack Bay said:


> I get it. We will be welcoming a new cohort of students to our campus next week and I‘m having to work hard to feel the excitement and anticipation that usually come so easily this time of year.


Thanks. Wishing all in education the very best this school year. Fingers crossed! My granddaughter is in high school and I just hope they get to have as normal a school year as possible. 
In 2020 and early 2021, there were a lot of activities I had stopped doing for fear of bringing the virus to my father, who just turned 100. Then we all were able to get vaccinated - those in close contact with my father. Sigh of relief. We still were/are vigilant- mask wearing, physical distancing, etc., but thought the worse was behind us. Now, here comes the Delta variant and the concern is great again. Some of the activities I planned for this fall, I am dropping, just can't take the risk. 
Pre covid, we had large multi-generational holiday gatherings with lots of food and close interaction; now we do ZOOM gatherings. 
I know we will find creative ways to continue to connect, but I realize I am  grieving for the loss of our old traditions.


----------



## rdc1978

Megan said:


> These numbers are nowhere near what reputable sources like John's Hopkins/ the CDC are reporting. There have been 37,583,545  cases in the US and the current number of deaths is 625,375  in the US alone. Morbidity is around 1.67%. Which is high...much higher than it should have been.



And then there is the "long covid" which we are just


Mobjack Bay said:


> I get it. We will be welcoming a new cohort of students to our campus next week and I‘m having to work hard to feel the excitement and anticipation that usually come so easily this time of year.


That's sad.  I never had that college excitement but when I see footage of kids taking their first foray into freedom every year it makes me happy for them. 

Heck I still get excited at the scene in revenge of the nerds when they were first being dropped off at campus.


----------



## KiwiMoose

So we had another 41 cases in the community overnight.  That brings us to circa 140 cases now. You've gotta remember that (with the exception of a small outbreak in Auckland in February - not Delta) we have been living our lives completely normally here in NZ - covid free. SO - bam!  That'll teach us for being cocky.  It was only a matter of time.  They've traced it back to someone who flew over from NSW in Aussie who was in managed isolation at the border.  They transferred him to hospital and somewhere in those couple of days the virus got out into the community.  They haven't found the missing link yet between him and the outbreak.  The good new is - so far - that the affected are mostly in Auckland ( being our most populated city) with about 12 in Wellington (our capital).  No cases reported anywhere else, although contact tracing has revealed possible spread to the South Island, but nothing has shown in testing yet.
The entire country is in lockdown until Friday evening now, at which time they will reassess.  If It's still not showing in the regions, they may well keep Auckland and Wellington at level 4 ( maximum lockdown) and allow the rest of country to go to level three. Level three is basically a full lockdown ( although we can extend our family bubble to include one other household) but with uber eats and other takeaways allowed  Bring on the pizza!


----------



## Relle

KiwiMoose said:


> Bring on the pizza!


Mmmm, pizza. This is the pizza we order - meat with olives.


----------



## Vicki C

KiwiMoose said:


> So we had another 41 cases in the community overnight.  That brings us to circa 140 cases now. You've gotta remember that (with the exception of a small outbreak in Auckland in February - not Delta) we have been living our lives completely normally here in NZ - covid free. SO - bam!  That'll teach us for being cocky.  It was only a matter of time.  They've traced it back to someone who flew over from NSW in Aussie who was in managed isolation at the border.  They transferred him to hospital and somewhere in those couple of days the virus got out into the community.  They haven't found the missing link yet between him and the outbreak.  The good new is - so far - that the affected are mostly in Auckland ( being our most populated city) with about 12 in Wellington (our capital).  No cases reported anywhere else, although contact tracing has revealed possible spread to the South Island, but nothing has shown in testing yet.
> The entire country is in lockdown until Friday evening now, at which time they will reassess.  If It's still not showing in the regions, they may well keep Auckland and Wellington at level 4 ( maximum lockdown) and allow the rest of country to go to level three. Level three is basically a full lockdown ( although we can extend our family bubble to include one other household) but with uber eats and other takeaways allowed  Bring on the pizza!


That’s too bad. Delta is so transmissible it’s likely to keep going. Just wondering how you personally are feeling about getting the vaccine? I recall you were on the fence but maybe I’m not up to speed.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Vicki C said:


> That’s too bad. Delta is so transmissible it’s likely to keep going. Just wondering how you personally are feeling about getting the vaccine? I recall you were on the fence but maybe I’m not up to speed.


I jumped off the fence when DELTA hit town.


----------



## melinda48

Susie said:


> Co-vid is here to stay. We will have co-vid vaccines offered each year just like flu vaccines. (Pneumonia vaccines are only necessary every 10 years, so I am leaving them out of this conversation.)
> 
> The current vaccines/boosters are the same vaccine, just that if you have not been exposed to Co-vid in between the original set of vaccines and now, your immunity is waning. It was NEVER intended to provide 100% immunity to all variants of this virus. We (anyone who studied what an RNA virus is to begin with, not just medical professionals) knew this was going to mutate, and mutate fast. The only idea behind getting the vaccine was to keep the cases down to a manageable level so the hospitals could continue to provide care long enough to let both the "natural" (meaning you get sick) immunity and the immunity provided by the vaccine protect enough of the population to prevent a mass die off of the population due to lack of hospital beds/staff/ventilators.
> 
> And in case anyone spouts that this is not as bad as last year, let me correct you. This is far, far worse. Last year we had mask mandates in Texas and mandatory shut downs.  This year, we have mayhem as hospital after hospital shuts its doors to incoming patients. I spoke Friday to hospital after hospital that quoted that they had anywhere between 8-30 people lined up waiting for every bed in the hospital. Not every ICU bed or every ventilator. Every bed.
> 
> And while I am not pointing fingers at anyone in this forum, let me tell you what Texas and Louisiana are seeing. It is NOT the vaccinated people taking up hospital beds. The vaccinated are managing their mild cases at home. It is the unvaccinated. Because, you see, no one in the US had ANY immunity to this germ before it came over here. And that means deaths.


Sadly, however, there are two effective drugs that are, for some reason, not being allowed to be prescribed. Ivermecton (spelling is most likely wrong) and Hydroxychloroquine. Both are proven; neither is being used by most doctors. You have a doctor who is willing to “go against the grain” and prescribe. Both were recommended until former President Donald Trump said he was using them pallatively. He did get covid but  had a very mild case. Also, in the US, many Democratic legislators said they would not take any vaccine recommended or developed while Trump was President. What do you suppose that did to the confidence level of the American people? Here, where I am from, we can blame vaccine hesitancy on several non-medical narratives. Thankfully, the FDA has approved the vaccine and so now I imagine many more will take the shot(s).

You are correct, we will be living with this virus for a long time to come. We may as well just look at the Covid vaccine as another yearly “shot in the arm.”


----------



## beckster51

TheGecko said:


> Yes, it is incredibly frustrating when trying to make an informed decision only to have folks treat you like you're an idiot.  NOT to pick on the OP, but when I read stuff like this:  _Following the science and using critical thinking really does foster having the best outcomes. There are bumps in the road, but without doubt, the best outcomes. You must be very relieved to be working in such a wise environment!_ It just makes me angry because I HAVE been following the science***, I have been thinking critically.
> 
> And to be honest, you're not helping either because what you have just said above...that because I'm not an "expert", I can't possibly understand.
> 
> No, I'm not an attorney though I did work as a paralegal and ran my own LPD business.  These days I'm a Senior Staff Accountant for a CPA firm and even though I don't have a degree in business, finance or accounting, those that do consult with me quite frequently.
> 
> With that said.....
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to see that there has been a lot of misinformation and conflicting information regarding Covid, or how heavily it was politized (by both sides). Just type it in into any search engine and you will find millions of links...Google gave me 4,220,000 results in 0.62 seconds. Of course, you'll have to use multiple search engines to see the full scope since so many of them limit how far they go back or even what they show. Best to go your local library and pull old newspapers and magazines.
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to know that studying a new disease or virus takes time. Yes, I understand that Covid-19 is part of the 'family of coronaviruses that usually cause mild to moderate upper-respiratory tract illnesses, like the common cold', but therein lies the problem. And I understand that because of SARS and MERS the scientific community was able to quickly identify it as a coronaviruses and start developing strategies for diagnostics, treatments and possible a vaccine, but...this was not SARS or MERS...this was something new.
> 
> - You don't need to be an 'expert' to know that it takes time to develop develop treatments, medications, vaccines and hopefully a cure. On the average it takes 10 to 15 years for vaccine development...which is pretty **** good considering that it took 22 years from the initial development to approval for Chicken Pox vaccine. Again, no doubt that development of the Covid-19 vaccine was jump started with previous research with SARS and MERS, but both were still in Pre-Clinicals (animal testing). I get it, we're in the midst of a global pandemic...countries are shut-down, businesses are closed, millions of people are out of work, a lot of people are getting sick, some are even dying. Governments threw billions of dollars in to R&D and then took the most promising of what was being developed and authorized emergency use of...when you consider that there are over 20 vaccines in five categories (RNA, DNA, Adenovirus Vector, Inactivated Virus and Subunit)...the biggest Phase 3 trial ever in history.
> 
> - And you sure a heck don't need to be an 'expert' to see what what is missing or what is deliberately being ignored or gets spun...kind like the source that you cited. I was really dizzy after reading it.
> 
> _“When a new vaccine is introduced into a population, when vaccination rates become very high, we can expect as many and sometimes more cases in the vaccinated population than the unvaccinated — even when the vaccine is doing its job and protecting people at a high rate — because the denominator of number of people vaccinated is so large,”_
> 
> Does that makes sense to anyone?  And doesn't it contradict:
> 
> _While it’s not known how many visitors to Provincetown were vaccinated, anecdotally many of them were, and data from the state show that prior to the outbreak, virtually everyone in the town had received at least one dose of a vaccine, with 85% or more of each age group fully vaccinated.
> 
> “The 74% needs to be put in the context that a very high proportion of the people exposed were vaccinated,” said Hanage. “It suggests that in the absence of vaccination the outbreak would have been much larger.”_
> 
> So let's say 60,000 and 85% fully vaccinated.  That's 51,000 vaccinated and 9000 unvaccinated.  Out of 60,000 folks, 469 folks came down with Covid-19; 74% were fully vaccinated, 26% were not.  347 folks out of 51,000 is 0.007 or 0.7%.  122 folks out of 9000 is 0.013 or 1.3%.  So technically...it was.
> 
> This is the kind of stuff that keeps a lot of people from being vaccinated...feeling like they are being sold a bill of goods. And truth be told...they have been, they still are. But honesty is a double-edge sword. How many of you, had you been told:
> 
> _So we have these vaccines.  They've only been tested with a small number of people so they are still experimental.  We know what some of the short-term side effects, but we have no clue what the long-term effects will be because it's only been a few months.  Computer models suggest that it's 90% effective against Covid-19, but we really don't know because it's only been a few months.  And then there is the issues that viruses mutate and so we don't if it will work against them because we don't know what they will be.  We also don't know how long the vaccine will last because again, not enough time._
> 
> Would have gotten vaccinated?
> 
> But before you answer consider this: There are approximately 333 Million people in the US with 253K cases (0.08%) and 3k deaths (0.001%) to date. We KNOW that masks and physical distancing work, we saw the numbers go down starting in March 2020 and then saw spikes around the Thanksgiving/Christmas holiday 2020 and around Spring Breaks 2021. And we've seen the surge since mandates were dropped in June/July. Speaking solely for myself, until Phase 3 is complete, I think I have better odds of winning the lottery.


My response to Mobjack Bay should not have made you angry.  I don't believe I mentioned the word "expert".  My reply was meant to be encouraging (her campus has had stellar results from their efforts), and it was not directed at you, it didn't involve you, and it had nothing to do with anything you previously said.  Yes, you are correct, there is a lot of misinformation out there, and you are repeating a lot of it on this forum.  I sense that it is OK for you to express your opinions, but people who are trained to evaluate this data who don't agree with you are not.  You appear to be anxiously fishing everywhere for data that supports your beliefs, and while I understand that, I think it has led to some of your anger.  I have been trained to evaluate scientific studies, and even so, I rely on expert sources to guide me in my decision making.  It's a very scary time, but venting your anger on other people in this thread is not going to improve your situation.


----------



## Babyshoes

melinda48 said:


> Sadly, however, there are two effective drugs that are, for some reason, not being allowed to be prescribed. Ivermecton (spelling is most likely wrong) and Hydroxychloroquine. Both are proven; neither is being used by most doctors.



I wasn't aware they had been proven to work, do you have a link to the studies which shows that? 

I seem to recall reading that Hydroxychloroquinine had been disproved, and last I checked Ivermectin was still being studied. It's been a while since I looked though.


----------



## dibbles

What @Babyshoes said above regarding ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine. 


melinda48 said:


> Also, in the US, many Democratic legislators said they would not take any vaccine recommended or developed while Trump was President. What do you suppose that did to the confidence level of the American people?


U.S. Congressional democrats have a 100% vaccination rate. 
Congressional Democrats have a 100% vaccination rate 


melinda48 said:


> Thankfully, the FDA has approved the vaccine and so now I imagine many more will take the shot(s).


Sadly, I don't think this is the case. At least among the people I personally know who are not vaccinated, I don't think FDA approval is going to make a difference to them.


----------



## TheGecko

rdc1978 said:


> Let me ask you this. Exactly what will you need to see and over what period of time before you'd feel comfortable getting vaccinated?
> 
> If this is too personal, I apologize but you've been comfortable sharing the reasons why you won't get vaccinated and that you aren't an anti vaxxer so I didn't think it would be too intrusive a question.



Honesty.  Transparency.  Time.  Respect.  A better vaccine.  

I need to get going, but I'll get back to you this evening.


----------



## Relle

melinda48 said:


> Sadly, however, there are two effective drugs that are, for some reason, not being allowed to be prescribed. Ivermecton. (spelling is most likely wrong) and Hydroxychloroquine. Both are proven; neither is being used by most doctors.


When I saw this, my eyes bugged out of my head . I remember treating bunnies years ago with Ivermectin for ear mites and yes, I KNOW, that Ivermectin preparations for animals, are different from human ones. It was something that caught my eye that's all and my memory kicked in.


----------



## lsg

Relle, I did some research and came across this article.









						Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19... : American Journal of Therapeutics
					

mortality, in secondary outcomes, and in chemoprophylaxis, among people with, or at high risk of, COVID-19 infection. Data sources:  We searched bibliographic databases up to April 25, 2021. Two review authors sifted for studies, extracted data, and assessed risk of bias. Meta-analyses were...




					journals.lww.com


----------



## lenarenee

melinda48 said:


> Sadly, however, there are two effective drugs that are, for some reason, not being allowed to be prescribed. Ivermecton (spelling is most likely wrong) and Hydroxychloroquine. Both are proven; neither is being used by most doctors. You have a doctor who is willing to “go against the grain” and prescribe. Both were recommended until former President Donald Trump said he was using them pallatively. He did get covid but  had a very mild case. Also, in the US, many Democratic legislators said they would not take any vaccine recommended or developed while Trump was President. What do you suppose that did to the confidence level of the American people? Here, where I am from, we can blame vaccine hesitancy on several non-medical narratives. Thankfully, the FDA has approved the vaccine and so now I imagine many more will take the shot(s).
> 
> You are correct, we will be living with this virus for a long time to come. We may as well just look at the Covid vaccine as another yearly “shot in the arm.”



Trump didn’t have a mild case, he was quite seriously ill, scarily so. They started him on the monoclonal antibodies ( among other things, but I forgot what they were) immediately and he had multiple courses because he initially worsened, and set up a ventilator for him. (my old neighbor, who retired after he left office, was one who helped treat him) After the 3rd treatment was markedly better in 24 hrs. Cost 1/3 of a million dollars ror his total medical care. If I remember correctly, he had 2 more antibody treatments….for insurance. Plus, the treatment was brand spanking new and they probably didn’t know exactly what dose to use.


----------



## szaza

lsg said:


> Relle, I did some research and came across this article.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin for Prevention and Treatment of COVID-19... : American Journal of Therapeutics
> 
> 
> mortality, in secondary outcomes, and in chemoprophylaxis, among people with, or at high risk of, COVID-19 infection. Data sources:  We searched bibliographic databases up to April 25, 2021. Two review authors sifted for studies, extracted data, and assessed risk of bias. Meta-analyses were...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> journals.lww.com



I only glossed over the article, but some things stood out to me. 
First of all, most of the studies included are pre-print, in other words not yet peer-reviewed. Obviously preprints are important during a pandemic, when you want to know results quickly, but it's something to keep in mind. 
Furthermore, if you look at the graphs of the meta-analysis (statistical compilation of data from different studies), only 2 studies had statistically significant outcomes. One of those (Elgazzar et al.) recently got retracted over suspicions of plagiarism and data falsification. The other one is getting an awful lot of weight, being the only study in a category. 
Lastly, only 3 studies get a perfect score when it comes to bias/study quality, only one of those is included in the meta-analysis and that one is actually reporting a possible negative effect of ivermectin on all-cause mortality. 
I think it is concerns like these that prevent most doctors from gladly jumping on the ivermectin bandwagon (even though they probably wished they could, because we all crave a miracle cure).


----------



## Susie

I eagerly read the article linked, but I have never heard of that publication. And being a nurse in the US that reads everything I can get my hands on about everything medical, and especially regarding this virus, that is saying something. So I went looking for supporting data. And I can't find any from anyone I know of or trust. I know that we are all looking for that miracle prevention/cure, but ivermectin has been thoroughly studied by organizations and *has yet* to show any real promise on either front. They are still studying it, so we shall see going forward. 

I will say, however, if you choose to take it, please, please, please get the human formula prescribed by an actual human medical doctor (if you can). People are taking doses that are way too high of basically cattle wormer, and are not having great outcomes.


----------



## TheGecko

Megan said:


> These numbers are nowhere near what reputable sources like John's Hopkins/ the CDC are reporting. There have been 37,583,545 cases in the US and the current number of deaths is 625,375 in the US alone. Morbidity is around 1.67%. Which is high...much higher than it should have been.



You are correct.  Totally my mistake and I apologize, I had a lot "windows" open and mixed up "World Population" with my state's cases.  But something I was thinking about on the way to work...is that none of the numbers really matter.  It's like...I'm an accountant, we do Financial Statement preparation for out clients.  It should be simple...you made this much money (money in), you spent this much money (money out)...what you have left over is your Net Profit.  Kind of.  Sort of.  Except that the Money Out that is spent towards Liabilities on your Balance Sheet, is not reflected on your Profit & Loss Statement.  It's how you can have a Net Profit of $65,000 and yet paid $150,000 towards your loan.

Last night the news made a big deal about how unvaccinated folks are 29% more likely to get Covid than vaccinated...kind of DUH to me, but I'm an information person so I wanted to know...under what circumstances?  And what was the percentage of vaccinated folks who were getting Covid...and under what circumstances?


----------



## TheGecko

beckster51 said:


> My response to Mobjack Bay should not have made you angry.  I don't believe I mentioned the word "expert".  My reply was meant to be encouraging (her campus has had stellar results from their efforts), and it was not directed at you, it didn't involve you, and it had nothing to do with anything you previously said.  Yes, you are correct, there is a lot of misinformation out there, and you are repeating a lot of it on this forum.  I sense that it is OK for you to express your opinions, but people who are trained to evaluate this data who don't agree with you are not.  You appear to be anxiously fishing everywhere for data that supports your beliefs, and while I understand that, I think it has led to some of your anger.  I have been trained to evaluate scientific studies, and even so, I rely on expert sources to guide me in my decision making.  It's a very scary time, but venting your anger on other people in this thread is not going to improve your situation.



Except for the mistake I made earlier, exactly what misinformation am I repeating?  If you would like, I would be more than happy to cite my sources which include the CDC, WHO, FDA, Yale Medicine, and John Hopkins Medicine...just to name a few.  And no, I don't just rely on information that supports my 'view', I look for information that counters it.

I welcome all opinions...if folks have information that negates mine, I'm all for it because I know that I am fallible. New information is coming out all the time and that's a good thing. What I don't welcome is the treatment that unvaccinated people are receiving which is where my frustration and anger come from. 

My choice to be unvaccinated at this time is not done lightly, I have first-hand experience. My youngest daughter had Covid...doesn't matter that she was 30 instead of 13, standing outside her bedroom door listening to her hack up a lung and not being able to do anything to help her in any way...indescribable. My BFF, her daughter got Covid two weeks before mine and went twice to the ER only to be sent back home. A couple of days after she returned to light duty, she told her roommate she was tired and was going to take a nap. She died. 

And I have first hand experience of the detriment of trusting 'expert sources'. With my father who died sooner than he should have because we trusted. With my husband who is now permanently disabled and very doubtful we will make it to our 20th anniversary because we trusted. And with myself. To add to myself, I am in the "high risk" category...I have Diabetes. I'm not ready to die yet. I have grandkids that I want to see grow up. Which is why I look at BOTH sides, which is why I am seeking information.

I am now the only one left in my office that is unvaccinated. My boss and co-workers have been very supportive, but he and I know that there will come a point when I will be forced out of the office because of it...simply because we don't have an extra office to 'accommodate' me. And because he doesn't want to have to fire me or single me out, everyone is getting decked out to be able 'work from home'. Within a couple of months, I expect to be working exclusively from home with a specific time to come to the office before anyone else is around to pick up and drop off work. That will make my husband happy, he hates that I commute, but jobs like these don't grow on trees.

I would like to be 'free', but again, not seeing that the grass is so much more greener on the other side of the fence.

Off to work.


----------



## rdc1978

@TheGecko experts aren't infallible or perfect but there is something to be gained from specialized education, knowledge and expertise in this and in nearly EVERY field.

Yearly there are mistakes made in hospitals, but that doesn't mean that I wouldnt go to a hospital for care.  Or that people should reject hospital care.


----------



## beckster51

TheGecko said:


> Except for the mistake I made earlier, exactly what misinformation am I repeating?  If you would like, I would be more than happy to cite my sources which include the CDC, WHO, FDA, Yale Medicine, and John Hopkins Medicine...just to name a few.  And no, I don't just rely on information that supports my 'view', I look for information that counters it.
> 
> I welcome all opinions...if folks have information that negates mine, I'm all for it because I know that I am fallible. New information is coming out all the time and that's a good thing. What I don't welcome is the treatment that unvaccinated people are receiving which is where my frustration and anger come from.
> 
> My choice to be unvaccinated at this time is not done lightly, I have first-hand experience. My youngest daughter had Covid...doesn't matter that she was 30 instead of 13, standing outside her bedroom door listening to her hack up a lung and not being able to do anything to help her in any way...indescribable. My BFF, her daughter got Covid two weeks before mine and went twice to the ER only to be sent back home. A couple of days after she returned to light duty, she told her roommate she was tired and was going to take a nap. She died.
> 
> And I have first hand experience of the detriment of trusting 'expert sources'. With my father who died sooner than he should have because we trusted. With my husband who is now permanently disabled and very doubtful we will make it to our 20th anniversary because we trusted. And with myself. To add to myself, I am in the "high risk" category...I have Diabetes. I'm not ready to die yet. I have grandkids that I want to see grow up. Which is why I look at BOTH sides, which is why I am seeking information.
> 
> I am now the only one left in my office that is unvaccinated. My boss and co-workers have been very supportive, but he and I know that there will come a point when I will be forced out of the office because of it...simply because we don't have an extra office to 'accommodate' me. And because he doesn't want to have to fire me or single me out, everyone is getting decked out to be able 'work from home'. Within a couple of months, I expect to be working exclusively from home with a specific time to come to the office before anyone else is around to pick up and drop off work. That will make my husband happy, he hates that I commute, but jobs like these don't grow on trees.
> 
> I would like to be 'free', but again, not seeing that the grass is so much more greener on the other side of the fence.
> 
> Off to work.


I think it would be counterproductive for me to go back and review all your posts for to point out misinformation since my reply to someone else that didn't even involve anything except an encouraging remark to her made you angry.  You say above that you are "all for it" when people disagree with you, but based on your recent entry to me, that has certainly not been my experience.  I am not going to argue with anyone about this.  If you really wish for me to tell you where I think your conclusions are wrong,  you can let me know.  People make their own choices, and they live with them, just as I do.  I give people information based on my education and experience, and that is where my feelings of responsibility end.  I do believe that health care professionals are best at slogging through and interpreting the data and its nuances, and I have tried to be helpful to others here on the forum.  This is not an emotional issue for me, I am totally data driven and logical about research studies and whether they are valid and reliable.  I don't say anything that I think I cannot back up with data.

I am concerned that you are not vaccinated, and I admit that.  You are exceptionally high-risk as a diabetic and the Delta variant is rampant.  I wish you and yours nothing but luck and good fortune.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

melinda48 said:


> Sadly, however, there are two effective drugs that are, for some reason, not being allowed to be prescribed. Ivermecton (spelling is most likely wrong) and Hydroxychloroquine.


My understanding was that these were not preventative but curative (sorry for the fancy words, but they are so descriptive and I don't get to use them together often). Whereas the vaccine is a preventive measure - that is it should prevent you from getting the disease, 80-90% of the time. These two drugs don't prevent you from getting sick, but help cure you once you start getting sick.  Is my understanding incorrect?



TheGecko said:


> And I have first hand experience of the detriment of trusting 'expert sources'. With my father who died sooner than he should have because we trusted. With my husband who is now permanently disabled and very doubtful we will make it to our 20th anniversary because we trusted. And with myself. To add to myself, I am in the "high risk" category...I have Diabetes. I'm not ready to die yet. I have grandkids that I want to see grow up. Which is why I look at BOTH sides, which is why I am seeking information.



My heart goes out to you, that's a lot of loss, a lot to process, a lot to forgive, a lot to accept.

As for me, I'm 67, so figured well, it would help keep me alive at least through the pandemic. I do wonder if there will be unforseen long term undesirable side effects, but at least this gives me better chances of living through this pandemic. And at 67, though I want to live much longer, if I get some weird side effect, at least I've had a decent (and sometimes fantastic) life.
I was concerned for my granddaughter, who is in the 12+ group. My concern was for possible unforseen long term detrimental side effects.  But now young people in her group are getting ill and dying, so I am glad her Mom had her vaccinated.  As for me, I don't think the experts are being dishonest or non-transparent, they are dealing with a relative unknown and are giving the best help and information as it is determined. It will probably be years and years before this disease is completely understood, but I don't want to wait that long to get a jab (as the British say).

I wish for you the best.


----------



## AliOop

Babyshoes said:


> I wasn't aware they had been proven to work, do you have a link to the studies which shows that?
> 
> I seem to recall reading that Hydroxychloroquinine had been disproved, and last I checked Ivermectin was still being studied. It's been a while since I looked though.


The study that supposedly disproved HCQ's efficacy has been withdrawn. It's very sad that the media heavily publicized the study upon publication, but has completely ignored its withdrawal. Apparently the doctors deliberately gave almost lethal doses of HCQ to near-death patients, and they had conflicts of interest. In other words, the study was deliberately designed to fail. I heard a rumor that these doctors are now under investigation, but cannot find anything to back that up.

In any event, HCQ's efficacy is based on a much, much lower dose, and it must be combined with zinc, which is actually the cure (HCQ is just the vehicle that gets zinc into the cells). This protocol is most effective as an early-stage cure, even for very high-risk individuals who otherwise would be expected to become seriously ill from their C-19 infection. According to the video linked below, if the medical community would get on board with treating people early with this protocol, they could prevent the great majority of the serious cases and deaths.

This video below is an interview with a doctor who successfully used this protocol with an almost 100% success rate in over 6000 C19 patients. He is no slacker, having been nominated for a Nobel prize. *Trigger warning:* this is a very right-wing show with religious comments throughout. The interviewer is evangelical Christian and doctor is an Orthodox Jew who was one of Trump's medical care providers for COVID treatment.  I personally like to hear from all sides of the political and religious spectrum, since the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. If you can look past all that rhetoric, including their theories about the political issues involved, the science of what they discuss is fascinating. I feel very sad that it is being ignored.

Stew Peters Show with Dr. Zev Zelenko

PS - doctors like Dr. Z take a lot of ridicule, abuse, and even death threats, for touting these protocols. One has to ask why they would put themselves through all of that if they didn't have evidence to back up their claims. In case you think their motive is money, Dr. Z lays out the entire protocol right on his website, including the OTC alternative to HCQ, which is quercetin. You can choose to buy his prepackaged version, or purchase the supplements yourself at any place that sells them.


----------



## AliOop

Sorry, I couldn't find this video earlier; it confirms that HCQ is now an FDA-approved off-label treatment for C19. The only significant contraindication for HCQ treatment is a blood disorder that is most common among African-Americans.

Like the video linked in my prior post, this one also emphasizes the need for pre-hospitalization treatment. The doctor says you should demand monoclonal antibodies before being admitted, because for some unknown reason, you cannot receive them once you are admitted, despite their great effectiveness. Lots more great info about starting early treatment, and treating long-haul symptoms.

And unlike the prior video, there is no political or religious commentary in this one. So if you can't bear watching the other one, this one will be much easier for you.  As a side note, these doctors are seeing equal hospitalization rates for vaxxed and unvaxxed patients.


----------



## earlene

AliOop said:


> PS - doctors like Dr. Z take a lot of ridicule, abuse, and even death threats, for touting these protocols. One has to ask why they would put themselves through all of that if they didn't have evidence to back up their claims. In case you think their motive is money, Dr. Z lays out the entire protocol right on his website, including the OTC alternative to HCQ, which is quercetin. You can choose to buy his prepackaged version, or purchase the supplements yourself at any place that sells them.



There are cautions with quercetin that should be taken into account if anyone plans to use this supplement.  Personally, I am taking at least two (and possibly more) medications that are on the "Interactions" precautions list, so I felt compelled to make others aware that reading these precautions is important in your decision-making process.




__





						QUERCETIN: Overview, Uses, Side Effects, Precautions, Interactions, Dosing and Reviews
					

Learn more about QUERCETIN uses, effectiveness, possible side effects, interactions, dosage, user ratings and products that contain QUERCETIN.




					www.webmd.com


----------



## AliOop

earlene said:


> There are cautions with quercetin that should be taken into account if anyone plans to use this supplement.  Personally, I am taking at least two (and possibly more) medications that are on the "Interactions" precautions list, so I felt compelled to make others aware that reading these precautions is important in your decision-making process.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> QUERCETIN: Overview, Uses, Side Effects, Precautions, Interactions, Dosing and Reviews
> 
> 
> Learn more about QUERCETIN uses, effectiveness, possible side effects, interactions, dosage, user ratings and products that contain QUERCETIN.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


Great point, @earlene! 100% I agree that people should consult their doctors about the proper treatment of any illness, esp C19 if you are taking other medications or having underlying conditions. Not every protocol will work for every person. But these videos can provide both doctors and patients with a starting point for treatment considerations. As noted by Dr. Z, HCQ is the preferred delivery method for zinc. He only researched and found out about quercetin as an alternative because HCQ was banned for a short period of time. Now that HCQ is an accepted and allowable treatment protocol, it would be the first-line treatment ahead of quercetin anyway. He also provides a third option in case neither of those two are available or advisable.


----------



## szaza

To those who fear unknown long-term side effects, the Dutch professor and immunologist Marjolein van Egmond often emphazises that in the history of vaccine development, there have never been any long term side effects years after vaccination. 
She's often cited in the Dutch news (NOS), but unfortunately I don't find an Englisch source.


----------



## lenarenee

AliOop said:


> As a side note, these doctors are seeing equal hospitalization rates for vaxxed and unvaxxed patients.



This doesn't sound right. But where are these doctors? What vaccine did these hospitalized patients have?  I have daily access to some of the best and most current information out there, and this is not what was reported in the UK (as of end of July)  or the US.


----------



## szaza

lenarenee said:


> This doesn't sound right. But where are these doctors? What vaccine did these hospitalized patients have?  I have daily access to some of the best and most current information out there, and this is not what was reported in the UK (as of end of July)  or the US.


I'm following the numbers in Belgium and the Netherlands. Both report significantly more unvaccinated than vaccinated people in the hospitals. In Belgium there's a big difference in vaccinations between the capital area and the rest of the country (61% in the capital, 73% in the small German speaking population, 78% in the French speaking population and 89% in the Dutch speaking population). By far the most hospital admissions are in the capital area.


----------



## soapysarah

I’ve just looked at this post, rather late I know.

From my in-medical reading over the past year, I am dismayed to find that anything which does not agree with the ‘official’ narrative is removed or subject to ad hominem attacks; where’s the debate?  1984 anyone?

The FLCCC website has details of the protocol for use in prevention and treatment.  I see that this information is a problem for governments because if there is a treatment for the rona the waxxes cannot be approved for emergency use - no money to be made.  IVM is off-patent and cheap.  The BIRD group also have the results of many studies on IVM.  My view on IVM is the same as that for vitamin D; if there are no down-sides but plenty of up-sides why would be not use it?  IVM has been approved for use in humans since 1987 and many millions of doses taken around the world without reports of side-effects causing death and lasting disability.

Dr Peter McCullugh stated in a video, sorry no to hand, that the hospitalisations are running at about the same percentage split as vax uptake - no differentiation.  He says that the CDC stopped counting back in May so have no idea as to the real number.  Factoring in the use of the PCR test which is being run at too many cycles we are very much in the dark With 93-97% false positives.  If you’re into statistics then John Dee’s Almanac is a go-to.

I’d have more faith in government measures if they did not control the narrative and get the MSM to take down the comments of Nobel scientists and label alternative views as ‘misinformation’.  Open debate would be better.

Dr Robert W Malone, inventor of mRNA technology, was taken off LinkedIn, although he was lucky and had some influential friends who got him reinstated.  He does not advise these treatments, not vaccines under the legal definition, to anyone other than the elderly or people with serious co-morbidities.

Having just seen that the UK government is planning on jabbing 12-year-olds with out parental consent, not that consent would make it right, I am surprised that millions are not on the streets objecting and launching legal action under Human Rights legislation and the Nuremberg Code.  What have we come to that this is considered acceptable behaviour; the risks far outwiegh the benefits (none).

Apologies for the rant but we are on a slippery slope to a state where people accept apartheid and coercion without batting an eyelid - not good as history has shown.


----------



## beckster51

AliOop said:


> Sorry, I couldn't find this video earlier; it confirms that HCQ is now an FDA-approved off-label treatment for C19. The only significant contraindication for HCQ treatment is a blood disorder that is most common among African-Americans.
> 
> Like the video linked in my prior post, this one also emphasizes the need for pre-hospitalization treatment. The doctor says you should demand monoclonal antibodies before being admitted, because for some unknown reason, you cannot receive them once you are admitted, despite their great effectiveness. Lots more great info about starting early treatment, and treating long-haul symptoms.
> 
> And unlike the prior video, there is no political or religious commentary in this one. So if you can't bear watching the other one, this one will be much easier for you.  As a side note, these doctors are seeing equal hospitalization rates for vaxxed and unvaxxed patients.



I don't think the assertions in this video are true.  This is the physician who is being sued by Baylor for stating far and wide he is affiliated with them when he has not been affiliated with them for some time.  They do not wish to be named as his employer because they feel he is an embarrassment.  He is also being heavily criticized in general by the medical community for treating Covid 19 patients with HCQ since it is NOT FDA or WHO approved or recommended for the treatment of Covid 19.  Here are 2 articles that explain this.









						Fact Check-U.S. government guidance against use of hydroxychloroquine for treating COVID-19 has not changed in 2021
					

Social media users have been sharing posts which claim that “hydroxychloroquine is now ok” yet the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the American Medical Association (AMA) told Reuters that their guidance advising against...




					www.reuters.com
				












						Lawsuit: Doc Using Old Baylor Affiliation While Dishing COVID Vax Falsehoods
					

Baylor Scott & White Health says Peter McCullough, MD, used former title during media interviews




					www.medpagetoday.com
				




If Dr. Zelenko has been nominated for a Nobel Prize, no one can confirm that because the list is secret.  Also, the Nobel committee accepts every name that offered by anyone for the nomination list.  Anyone can be nominated for a Nobel Prize.  

The reason that monoclonal antibodies are not generally used once you are admitted to the hospital is that they are not effective unless they are given very early on, often before symptoms or with minor symptoms.  That is why Dr. Fauci, the FDA, and the CDC are encouraging everyone who has a positive test for Covid to seek treatment with monoclonal antibodies before becoming truly ill.  They are a very effective treatment during the extremely early stages of disease, but are totally ineffective after the disease progresses.  

This is the problem with seeking medical information from platforms like youtube.  There is no editorial oversight.  Anyone can make a video and place it on the platform for all to see whether it is accurate information or not.  Same problem as getting "news" from any social media platform.  Some of it may be accurate, but since there is no oversight, who knows what is true and what is not.  I cannot stress how important it is to seek medical information from a reputable source.  Why do people believe that the medical experts would not recommend a treatment such as HCQ if it works?  They would be delighted to use HCQ if it had been proven to work, but it has not.  There have been no double blind studies to date that have proven that it is an effective treatment.  If you give it to someone and they get better, it is not proof that HCQ was the reason.  They may also have eaten eggs for breakfast every day since diagnosis.  Did that cure them?  This is correlation and not causation.  It's so very easy to confuse them.  All "cures" to date for the use of HCQ and Ivermectin are anecdotes, not proven treatments or cures.  I wish it were true.  We could all move on with our old lives if it were.  Please don't shoot the messenger.


----------



## Susie

AliOop said:


> Like the video linked in my prior post, this one also emphasizes the need for pre-hospitalization treatment. The doctor says you should demand monoclonal antibodies before being admitted, because for some unknown reason, you cannot receive them once you are admitted, despite their great effectiveness. Lots more great info about starting early treatment, and treating long-haul symptoms.



Our freestanding ERs and hospital based ERs are administering monoclonal antibodies (casirivimab and imdevimab) to anyone who has an oxygen saturation (SpO2) of 90% or less, then sending them home with oxygen. Our hospitals are just that full.


----------



## beckster51

soapysarah said:


> I’ve just looked at this post, rather late I know.
> 
> From my in-medical reading over the past year, I am dismayed to find that anything which does not agree with the ‘official’ narrative is removed or subject to ad hominem attacks; where’s the debate?  1984 anyone?
> 
> The FLCCC website has details of the protocol for use in prevention and treatment.  I see that this information is a problem for governments because if there is a treatment for the rona the waxxes cannot be approved for emergency use - no money to be made.  IVM is off-patent and cheap.  The BIRD group also have the results of many studies on IVM.  My view on IVM is the same as that for vitamin D; if there are no down-sides but plenty of up-sides why would be not use it?  IVM has been approved for use in humans since 1987 and many millions of doses taken around the world without reports of side-effects causing death and lasting disability.
> 
> Dr Peter McCullugh stated in a video, sorry no to hand, that the hospitalisations are running at about the same percentage split as vax uptake - no differentiation.  He says that the CDC stopped counting back in May so have no idea as to the real number.  Factoring in the use of the PCR test which is being run at too many cycles we are very much in the dark With 93-97% false positives.  If you’re into statistics then John Dee’s Almanac is a go-to.
> 
> I’d have more faith in government measures if they did not control the narrative and get the MSM to take down the comments of Nobel scientists and label alternative views as ‘misinformation’.  Open debate would be better.
> 
> Dr Robert W Malone, inventor of mRNA technology, was taken off LinkedIn, although he was lucky and had some influential friends who got him reinstated.  He does not advise these treatments, not vaccines under the legal definition, to anyone other than the elderly or people with serious co-morbidities.
> 
> Having just seen that the UK government is planning on jabbing 12-year-olds with out parental consent, not that consent would make it right, I am surprised that millions are not on the streets objecting and launching legal action under Human Rights legislation and the Nuremberg Code.  What have we come to that this is considered acceptable behaviour; the risks far outwiegh the benefits (none).
> 
> Apologies for the rant but we are on a slippery slope to a state where people accept apartheid and coercion without batting an eyelid - not good as history has shown.


Dr. Robert Malone did not invent the mRNA technology, and he was removed from LinkedIn because he inferred that he did.  He did write a paper in 1989 about the potentials for RNA technology.  That hardly makes him the inventor of mRNA vaccines.  He has admitted since then that he didn't invent them.  Dr. Katalin Kariko and Dr. Drew Weissman are credited with laying the groundwork for mRNA vaccines.  LinkedIn is not platform that has any authority to certify qualifications of any kind.  They are a media platform that allows people to build a professional identity.

See my reply to AliOop about Dr. McCullough.   What does your statement "hospitalisations are running at about the same percentage split as vax uptake - no differentiation" mean?  I don't understand that statement, but I would like to learn what it means.

There are downsides of Ivermectin.  You can look them up.  The biggest one is that it has not been proven to provide any benefit in the treatment of Covid 19.  I wish someone would explain to me why they believe there is a group of people in the medical community who are suppressing effective treatments for Covid 19.  The physicians who treat patients would use whatever has been proven to work, regardless of cost.  A lot of people want to believe in the "deep state" of government that suppresses physicians that tout cures, but the facts are that people for reasons of fame, fortune, ego, ignorance, and/or the need for attention pass misinformation along to unsuspecting people.  Physicians and scientists who provide true evidence of advances in treatment are not suppressed.  They are celebrated, and they don't have to go on youtube or podcasts to get that out to the public.  

Open debate in the medical community is alive and well.  But the gold standard for deciding on effective treatments is evidence.  These physicians have not presented evidence, only anecdotes.  It might not hurt you to take Ivermectin, but it probably won't help you either.  The real risk in taking unproven treatments is that they take on significance that they do not deserve and overshadow the development of treatments that will actually work based on double blind trials that establish protocols that determine how and when they should be used.

Again, as I have said in earlier posts, I am just stating facts.   These are not emotional issues for me, and I don't stand to benefit from giving anyone inaccurate information.  To put it simply, other than feeling strongly that people should be given accurate information, I have no dog in this hunt.  Please source information from reputable sources that you investigate.


----------



## rdc1978

@AliOop - it appears that the emergency authorization may have been rescinded according to the FDA. 

The video you posted is only five days old so perhaps there is updated guidance or it wasn't actually filmed 5 days ago just uploaded 5 days ago.  









						Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Revokes Emergency Use Authorization for Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine
					

COVID-19 Update: FDA Revokes Emergency Use Authorization




					www.fda.gov


----------



## ScentimentallyYours

TheGecko said:


> Except for the mistake I made earlier, exactly what misinformation am I repeating?  If you would like, I would be more than happy to cite my sources which include the CDC, WHO, FDA, Yale Medicine, and John Hopkins Medicine...just to name a few.  And no, I don't just rely on information that supports my 'view', I look for information that counters it.
> 
> I welcome all opinions...if folks have information that negates mine, I'm all for it because I know that I am fallible. New information is coming out all the time and that's a good thing. What I don't welcome is the treatment that unvaccinated people are receiving which is where my frustration and anger come from.
> 
> My choice to be unvaccinated at this time is not done lightly, I have first-hand experience. My youngest daughter had Covid...doesn't matter that she was 30 instead of 13, standing outside her bedroom door listening to her hack up a lung and not being able to do anything to help her in any way...indescribable. My BFF, her daughter got Covid two weeks before mine and went twice to the ER only to be sent back home. A couple of days after she returned to light duty, she told her roommate she was tired and was going to take a nap. She died.
> 
> And I have first hand experience of the detriment of trusting 'expert sources'. With my father who died sooner than he should have because we trusted. With my husband who is now permanently disabled and very doubtful we will make it to our 20th anniversary because we trusted. And with myself. To add to myself, I am in the "high risk" category...I have Diabetes. I'm not ready to die yet. I have grandkids that I want to see grow up. Which is why I look at BOTH sides, which is why I am seeking information.
> 
> I am now the only one left in my office that is unvaccinated. My boss and co-workers have been very supportive, but he and I know that there will come a point when I will be forced out of the office because of it...simply because we don't have an extra office to 'accommodate' me. And because he doesn't want to have to fire me or single me out, everyone is getting decked out to be able 'work from home'. Within a couple of months, I expect to be working exclusively from home with a specific time to come to the office before anyone else is around to pick up and drop off work. That will make my husband happy, he hates that I commute, but jobs like these don't grow on trees.
> 
> I would like to be 'free', but again, not seeing that the grass is so much more greener on the other side of the fence.
> 
> Off to work.


I understand your distrust of medical advice. My mother was in there with you! She has a Doctor who incorporates  alternative medicines in her practice, and that makes mom comfortable.  When the vaccine first became available, her doctor explained to her how delicate her system was and why she should not get the vaccine.

My husband and I have a daughter with autism who lives in a group home, but came home with us when the pandemic started. In January, she became eligible for the vaccine, which would enable her to go back to the group home with her friends. Because she had been home with us, my husband and I were also eligible and got the Moderna vaccine. My husband (who has MS) had no symptoms, I had a very sore arm. With the second shot, my husband had mild flu symptoms for a day, but I had no symptoms at all.

My physical make up is very similar to my mother’s.  Two days after my second shot I called her up and told her she did not need to worry about the vaccine. No matter what her doctor had said, my reaction to the vaccine gave her the best possible prediction of how she would react to the vaccine.  I told her that once she was vaccinated, I could come visit.

I also pointed out to consider the expensive medical bills from Covid that have pushed survivors into bankruptcy. Death is often mentioned, but the financial burden that the family inherits is not.

Next I pointed out the difference in longevity between an mRNA vaccine and Covid. The mRNA vaccine contains only a small piece of a coronavirus spike. It cannot give anyone Covid. On the other hand, catching the coronavirus means that it will live in your system forever. It may go into hiding, but just like chickenpox, it will still be there. Chickenpox shows up decades later as shingles. We have no way of knowing how the long-term effects of catching the coronavirus will affect us.

All three things — shared genetics, hospital expense, and unknown long-term effects — resonated with my mother because she suffered terribly from shingle two years ago. She discussed vaccination with her husband and was on the phone the next day searching for an appointment.  She got vaccinated. Her physical reaction paralleled mine. Her doctor’s advice did not fit for her after all.  Mom said her primary emotion was the extreme sense of relief.

I did go out and visit my mother as soon as she was fully vaccinated.  For the first time in over a year, she got to go to a store and shop for food that she wanted.  She left the house and went for a walk with me. Twice!

Perhaps you will see some similar considerations for yourself in my mother’s story. Hope it help!


----------



## AliOop

lenarenee said:


> This doesn't sound right. But where are these doctors? What vaccine did these hospitalized patients have?  I have daily access to some of the best and most current information out there, and this is not what was reported in the UK (as of end of July)  or the US.


They are in Dallas, TX.

@rdc1978 That FDA notice you posted is over a year old. No, HCQ is not FDA-approved for this purpose, but it is no longer banned as an off-label use for treating C19.

@beckster51 here is a very small study completed and published by Dr. Z regarding the efficacy of low-dose HCQ + zinc + an antibiotic. Again, as he explained very clearly in the video, he does not tout HCQ as the cure; it is merely the delivery vehicle for zinc. Zinc is well known for blocking many different viruses (including the virus which causes the common cold, as well as C19) from replicating.

Why are there no bigger, longer studies confirming this? Because the media screamed so loud about the dangers of HCQ, based on the faulty "study" where the doctors overdosed critically ill patients with 10x the appropriate amount of HCQ. But the media never reported that the study was withdrawn as being seriously flawed in methodology, and the doctors as having conflicts of interest. Thus, later attempts to recruit people for clinical trials of HCQ have not been successful because no one will volunteer. Source.  Of course not - many still believe that HCQ killed those patients and will likely kill them, too.

Many doctors are also unaware of the story behind the story. Per the second video I posted (the two docs in Dallas, TX), many primary care doctors are still telling their c19-positive patients to go home and rest - or they refuse to treat them at all. They are not being proactive with recommending protocols that some doctors are finding very successful - like Dr. Z.

Per Dr. Z's explanation in the video, the appropriate use of HCQ is to administer low does with zinc, *for the purpose early intervention* (first 4-5 days) to treat those who are infected and showing symptoms. His study, though small, shows great results. Nowhere does he claim it is a "cure."

Why aren't there more studies like this? Maybe because our medical care providers are so overwhelmed that they don't have time to dig up these stories and learn about them. Why are major medical journals not publishing these studies? Maybe because Big Pharma pays their salaries and will cut off the $$$ if anyone suggests use of inexpensive, out-of-patent drugs, and supplements available at the general store. Follow the money.

Regarding Dr. McCullough, his explanation was that he failed to update his LinkedIn profile, and did so when that was pointed out to him. How many of you have outdated profiles on some social media account? I personally haven't logged in to LinkedIn for years so mine is probably outdated, too. That doesn't make me a liar - just a busy professional.

As far as anything Dr. Fauci says... the man lied to Congress, and got caught with his pants down when his emails regarding the source of the virus were exposed. You may not like the senators who questioned him, or the way they went about questioning them. But as an attorney, I can assure you that the evidence against Dr. Fauci is very damning. He'd be convicted in a heartbeat in front a jury. Yet he still denies it. He actually said at the hearings, "Anyone challenging Dr. Fauci is challenging science."

That is insane arrogance. EVERYONE is subject to being challenged, no matter how smart, powerful, or popular that person may be. I could have respect for Dr. F if he would man up and admit he blew it. But since he won't, I have zero trust in anything that man says, and it is his own fault.

ETA: I find it very ironic that some people find it easy to overlook Dr. F's documented falsehoods under oath, and damning emails showing that he knew the source of the virus... but they want to pick apart Dr. M for having an outdated LinkedIn profile. Let's get a sense of proportion here as to what demonstrates a more serious lack of integrity, and a more egregious effect on the healthcare of sick people in this country.

PS - in no way do I intend to shoot the messenger for those of you who disagree. I'm sharing what I've learned in my research because I believe you'd want to know this in the event it can save one of your lives, or the lives of one of your loved ones. You don't have to believe it or accept it, but I do hope you will remember it in the event you find yourself in a situation where someone's life or long-term health depends on it.



Susie said:


> Our freestanding ERs and hospital based ERs are administering monoclonal antibodies (casirivimab and imdevimab) to anyone who has an oxygen saturation (SpO2) of 90% or less, then sending them home with oxygen. Our hospitals are just that full.


Sorry, missed this one... our hospitals are not doing this unless patients demand or their doctors call in an RX ahead of time.


----------



## beckster51

AliOop said:


> They are in Dallas, TX.
> 
> @rdc1978 That FDA notice you posted is over a year old. No, HCQ is not FDA-approved for this purpose, but it is no longer banned as an off-label use for treating C19.
> 
> @beckster51 here is a very small study completed and published by Dr. Z regarding the efficacy of low-dose HCQ + zinc + an antibiotic. Again, as he explained very clearly in the video, he does not tout HCQ as the cure; it is merely the delivery vehicle for zinc. Zinc is well known for blocking many different viruses (including the virus which causes the common cold, as well as C19) from replicating.
> 
> Why are there no bigger, longer studies confirming this? Because the media screamed so loud about the dangers of HCQ, based on the faulty "study" where the doctors overdosed critically ill patients with 10x the appropriate amount of HCQ. But the media never reported that the study was withdrawn as being seriously flawed in methodology, and the doctors as having conflicts of interest. Thus, later attempts to recruit people for clinical trials of HCQ have not been successful because no one will volunteer. Source.  Of course not - many still believe that HCQ killed those patients and will likely kill them, too.
> 
> Many doctors are also unaware of the story behind the story. Per the second video I posted (the two docs in Dallas, TX), many primary care doctors are still telling their c19-positive patients to go home and rest - or they refuse to treat them at all. They are not being proactive with recommending protocols that some doctors are finding very successful - like Dr. Z.
> 
> Per Dr. Z's explanation in the video, the appropriate use of HCQ is to administer low does with zinc, *for the purpose early intervention* (first 4-5 days) to treat those who are infected and showing symptoms. His study, though small, shows great results. Nowhere does he claim it is a "cure."
> 
> Why aren't there more studies like this? Maybe because our medical care providers are so overwhelmed that they don't have time to dig up these stories and learn about them. Why are major medical journals not publishing these studies? Maybe because Big Pharma pays their salaries and will cut off the $$$ if anyone suggests use of inexpensive drugs out of patent and supplements available at the general store. Follow the money.
> 
> Regarding Dr. McCullough, his explanation was that he failed to update his LinkedIn profile, and did so when that was pointed out to him. How many of you have outdated profiles on some social media account? I personally haven't logged in to LinkedIn for years so mine is probably outdated, too. That doesn't make me a liar - just a busy professional.
> 
> As far as anything Dr. Fauci says... the man lied to Congress, and got caught with his pants down when his emails regarding the source of the virus were exposed. You may not like the senators who questioned him, or the way they went about questioning them. But as an attorney, I can assure you that the evidence against Dr. Fauci is very damning. He'd be convicted in a heartbeat in front a jury. Yet he still denies it. I could have respect for him if he would man up and admit he blew it. But since he won't, I have zero trust in anything that man says, and it is his own fault.
> 
> PS - in no way do I intend to shoot the messenger for those of you who disagree. I'm sharing what I've learned in my research because I believe you'd want to know this in the event it can save one of your lives, or the lives of one of your loved ones. You don't have to believe it or accept it, but I do hope you will remember it in the event you find yourself in a situation where someone's life or long-term health depends on it.



Yes, that is a very small study, but more importantly, it is not a double blind study, with no control group, so it means nothing.  If you have no control group that did not receive the treatment, you don't know if these people would have gotten better with or without his protocol.  Am I explaining this so you understand the difference?  Again, correlation, no causation.  There have been random double blind studies about this, and there was no difference in outcome in the treated and untreated groups.  I'm sure I can find you more, but here is an example:









						Effect of Hydroxychloroquine or Lopinavir-Ritonavir on Hospitalization for COVID-19
					

This randomized clinical trial examines whether hydroxychloroquine or lopinavir-ritonavir is effective for reducing hospitalization among high-risk outpatients with early symptomatic COVID-19.




					jamanetwork.com
				




Yes, zinc can lessen the symptomatic course of a mild viral illness.  It has been shown to be effective in lessening the duration of the common cold, and it does not require a delivery vehicle.  You can buy OTC zinc and suck on it (it tastes terrible!), or you can buy lozenges that contain it.  The lozenges are much more pleasant tasting.  I have used zinc for a cold to lessen the course.  I don't know if it truly helped or not, but it didn't hurt. Using zinc to fight Covid 19 is like using a cap gun to kill someone.  Also, giving azithromycin, which is an antibiotic, for a virus is ridiculous.  A virus is not a bacterial infection, and a virus cannot be treated with an antibiotic.  So I end my assessment of Dr. Z's protocol.  If only it would work, but there is no proof that it does.

My criticism of Dr. McCullough had nothing to do with his LinkedIn profile.  I was trying to make the OP understand that what a LinkedIn profiles says about someone is totally irrelevant.  I am sure there are many falsehoods on LinkedIn,  just as there are on many resumes and digital platforms.  Dr. M. was stating publicly and in his written credentials that he was affiliated with Baylor in order to look like he had greater credibility than he had.  That is like me saying I am on the faculty at Baylor.  That is lying and unethical, and that is why he is being sued by Baylor to cease and desist.  He obviously did not think his credentials without being on the faculty at Baylor were influential enough, so he lied.  Not a capital offense, but Baylor was embarrassed by it since his medical claims are not true.

If you are referring to the accusation that Dr. Fauci lied to Congress about funding the Wuhan lab for gain of function viral studies, the grants from NIH are never for gain of function research since gain of function research can result in bioweapons.  NIH does fund labs all over the world for viral research.  The more scientists that work on these emerging viruses in legitimate labs, the better.  The lab in Wuhan has been a respected lab for virology research.  I have no fact based opinion and no information about where the virus came from, and neither does anyone else.  It could have jumped species as HIV did, it could have come from the wet market in Wuhan, or it could have been a lab accident.  We will never know conclusively.  If you are saying he lied about something else, I am not sure what you are referring to.  What I do know is that we have no one else in this country that has the breadth and depth of knowledge that he does about these issues, and we would be foolish to discount what he says without real scientific proof that he is wrong.  He has made educated guesses that turned out to be inaccurate.  Everyone did.  The situation continues to evolve and suppositions will be proved or disproved or discarded as the virus mutates and more facts come to light.  It is truly a moving target.  As to something he said in an email that he didn't intend to become public, I would ask you this: Do you remember everything you have said in emails? Have situations changed since you sent some emails? My answers to these questions would be NO and YES.  This was, as many political things are these days, a tempest in a teapot for political reasons.  I make it a rule never to put too much emphasis on what gets said in Congress when the objective of questioning is just to make someone look bad.  I know that your outlook may be different than mine since you are an attorney.  I find the process of congressmen and congresswomen grilling anyone to make them look bad, no matter what it is about, appalling and a waste of taxpayer money.  I am only interested in the science.  Dr. Fauci knows his science, and he has been a dedicated public servant for a very long time.  

I have said I don't intend to argue with anyone about this, and I am not.  I am presenting the objective medical facts as I know them as a medical professional.  Your references and information sources are very weak and not evidence based.  If HCQ could treat people that have Covid 19, do you really think any medical professional would deny it?  They are in the profession of treating and curing disease.  All valid treatments are welcome!  Do you think medical professionals are guided or that research funding is influenced by what the media says?  I never attended a research committee that ever discussed what the media or public opinion thought as a subject to be considered prior to funding research or evaluating the validity of research.  I assure you they are not, but you are free to believe what you like.  I, too, want people to receive accurate information about how to make the best choices for how to deal with this pandemic. It is my considered professional opinion based on my extensive reading that HQC is not a helpful suggestion for anyone seeking treatment advice for Covid 19.  Using worthless treatments only delays people from getting effective treatments.  My definition of accurate information is what is revealed by evidence based protocols that result from double blind studies that are based on causation, not correlation.


----------



## rdc1978

@AliOop - I'm aware of the publication date.  Once a drug gains initial approval from the FDA for any condition it does not need to get further approval for "off label" use.

So I don't think the fact that off label use is expressly prohibited by the FDA means anything one way or the other. 

Though the fact that they rescinded emergency authorization may say something.









						Understanding Unapproved Use of Approved Drugs "Off Label"
					

Understanding Unapproved Use of Approved Drugs "Off Label"




					www.fda.gov
				




The article below, from Reuters lays it out.  The FDA says that they haven't changed their position on HCQ since June 2020.  

The AMA, it sounds like urged doctors to be very cautious when using HCQ off label.  









						Fact Check-U.S. government guidance against use of hydroxychloroquine for treating COVID-19 has not changed in 2021
					

Social media users have been sharing posts which claim that “hydroxychloroquine is now ok” yet the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the American Medical Association (AMA) told Reuters that their guidance advising against...




					www.reuters.com


----------



## AliOop

beckster51 said:


> My definition of accurate information is what is revealed by evidence based protocols that result from double blind studies that are based on causation, not correlation.


Of course we want double-blind, randomized control trials! But saying that any evidence outside of those is inaccurate, or to be dismissed, suppresses potentially vital treatments in times of fast-spreading disease where all hands are on deck, and people are dying. But let's say you are right - where are the double-blind, randomized long-term trials for the C-19 vaccine? Why the double-standard to get emergency approval for that, but not emergency approval for some of these other treatments?

As for the study from Brazil that you linked, you are comparing apples and oranges. The study uses a different protocol than what Dr. Z recommends. They included people up to 8 days after symptom onset, and if I recall correctly, he cut it off at 5 (I could be wrong, so fact-check me on that). More importantly, the Brazil study only administered HCQ, not HCQ + zinc + the antibiotic. I don't know why Dr. Z includes the antibiotic for treating this viral disease, but as you know, sometimes drugs have secondary purposes for which they are administered. You can contact him on his website to ask about that.

Based on your opinion that the Brazil study proves Dr. Z wrong, I'm not sure you really listened to what Dr. Z actually said. He made it very clear that HCQ must be combined with zinc, not administered by itself; that his protocol is only appropriate for people in the early stage with mild symptoms; and that it most benefits those who are high risk for severe complications of C19. His population was small, but the percentage of those who would be expected to have severe symptoms, vs. those who actually did, was compelling. He also stated during the interview that he has successfully treated close to 6,000 such patients - a much larger group than what is covered by the study.

Another point he made is that  for C19 (unlike for other viruses), zinc does require a delivery vehicle, because it needs help crossing the blood-brain barrier. Not that it won't get there, but it won't get there in the amounts needed to do what it needs to do. HCQ serves that purpose, or quercetin can be an alternative (he quotes a third, but I don't recall what it was). So those who keep saying HCQ doesn't work, are missing the point of combining HCQ with zinc to combat the virus.

I don't have a problem if you want to dispute the fact, but I am puzzled as to your determination to ignore and dismiss what he is saying. Maybe it wasn't this way back in the say when you were practicing, but today's medical field is highly influenced by money and Big Pharma.  Do some research into the bonuses that family physicians are paid for getting 80% of their patients vaccinated with FDA-approved vaccinations: often these bonuses are $40k, $80k and more. You cannot tell me that doctors, who are ordinary people, are not influenced by that kind of money.


----------



## AliOop

rdc1978 said:


> @AliOop - I'm aware of the publication date.  Once a drug gains initial approval from the FDA for any condition it does not need to get further approval for "off label" use.
> 
> So I don't think the fact that off label use is expressly prohibited by the FDA means anything one way or the other.
> 
> Though the fact that they rescinded emergency authorization may say something.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Understanding Unapproved Use of Approved Drugs "Off Label"
> 
> 
> Understanding Unapproved Use of Approved Drugs "Off Label"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.fda.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The article below, from Reuters lays it out.  The FDA says that they haven't changed their position on HCQ since June 2020.
> 
> The AMA, it sounds like urged doctors to be very cautious when using HCQ off label.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-U.S. government guidance against use of hydroxychloroquine for treating COVID-19 has not changed in 2021
> 
> 
> Social media users have been sharing posts which claim that “hydroxychloroquine is now ok” yet the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the National Institutes of Health (NIH) and the American Medical Association (AMA) told Reuters that their guidance advising against...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Yes, and that withdrawal of emergency approval of HCQ for C19 was based on the "study" where severely ill patients were overdosed with HCQ, and subsequently died. The negative cardiac affects observed, and about which the FDA warns, are exactly what is expected from overdosing with HCQ.

That study has been withdrawn, yet the FDA has not changed its position that was based on that study. Why does the FDA feel the need to warn anyone about HCQ being administered in doses which are tolerated well by millions around the world for malaria and other illnesses, and have been for decades?


----------



## beckster51

AliOop said:


> Of course we want double-blind, randomized control trials! But saying that any evidence outside of those is inaccurate, or to be dismissed, suppresses potentially vital treatments in times of fast-spreading disease where all hands are on deck, and people are dying. But let's say you are right - where are the double-blind, randomized long-term trials for the C-19 vaccine? Why the double-standard to get emergency approval for that, but not emergency approval for some of these other treatments?
> 
> As for the study from Brazil that you linked, you are comparing apples and oranges. The study uses a different protocol than what Dr. Z recommends. They included people up to 8 days after symptom onset, and if I recall correctly, he cut it off at 5 (I could be wrong, so fact-check me on that). More importantly, the Brazil study only administered HCQ, not HCQ + zinc + the antibiotic. I don't know why Dr. Z includes the antibiotic for treating this viral disease, but as you know, sometimes drugs have secondary purposes for which they are administered. You can contact him on his website to ask about that.
> 
> Based on your opinion that the Brazil study proves Dr. Z wrong, I'm not sure you really listened to what Dr. Z actually said. He made it very clear that his protocol is only appropriate for people in the early stage with mild symptoms, and that it most benefits those who are high risk for severe complications of C19. His population was small, but the percentage of those who would be expected to have severe symptoms, vs. those who actually did, was compelling. He also stated during the interview that he has successfully treated close to 6,000 such patients - a much larger group than what is covered by the study.
> 
> Another point he made is that  for C19 (unlike for other viruses), zinc does require a delivery vehicle, because it needs help crossing the blood-brain barrier. Not that it won't get there, but it won't get there in the amounts needed to do what it needs to do. HCQ serves that purpose, or quercetin can be an alternative (he quotes a third, but I don't recall what it was). So those who keep saying HCQ doesn't work, are missing the point of combining HCQ with zinc to combat the virus.
> 
> I don't have a problem if you want to dispute the fact, but I am puzzled as to your determination to ignore and dismiss what he is saying. Maybe it wasn't this way back in the say when you were practicing, but today's medical field is highly influenced by money and Big Pharma.  Do some research into the bonuses that family physicians are paid for getting 80% of their patients vaccinated with FDA-approved vaccinations: often these bonuses are $40k, $80k and more. You cannot tell me that doctors, who are ordinary people, are not influenced by that kind of money.


UNCLE.  Now that I have tried to provide you with facts, I am going to tell you how I actually feel.  I am STUNNED and find the arrogance of people who are not medically trained arguing with someone who is just breath-taking.  I would never be arrogant enough to tell you how to practice law.  But you obviously think you know more about medical research than the NIH, the FDA, the CDC, and someone who spent her entire career in the medical profession in advanced practice, who is married to a physician who did research as part of his medical practice.  BTW, I know a lot about the pharmaceutical industry as my father worked for one.  I know more about incentives in the pharmaceutical industry than you ever will.  You say you are open to other opinions, but you are not as shown above.  As Forest Gump said so well, "and that is all I am going to say about that."  I retire from the coronavirus thread.  I have given you accurate information, but you obviously don't want it.


----------



## rdc1978

AliOop said:


> Yes, and that withdrawal of emergency approval of HCQ for C19 was based on the "study" where severely ill patients were overdosed with HCQ, and subsequently died. The negative cardiac affects observed, and about which the FDA warns, are exactly what is expected from overdosing with HCQ.
> 
> That study has been withdrawn, yet the FDA has not changed its position that was based on that study. Why does the FDA feel the need to warn anyone about HCQ being administered in doses which are tolerated well by millions around the world for malaria and other illnesses, and have been for decades?



Perhaps because the risk isn't worth the reward. Has the protocol at normal doses been well studied?

The FDA considers a number of factors in approving a drug for a particular condition.  And some of it is weighing the pros and cons. 

Malaria and arthritis and lupus may be worth the possible cons.  .   

Even the AMA cautioned care for doctors using HCQ off label for COVID patients. 

Doctors are free to use HCQ off label for covid but that has nothing to do with the FDA giving express or implicit approval or prohibition of its use for COVID.

If it's working I'm sure doctors will write it off label.  

Wait, are you assuming that the patients were overdosed because of their symptoms or is there some sort of admission or proof of overdosing?


----------



## AliOop

beckster51 said:


> UNCLE.  Now that I have tried to provide you with facts, I am going to tell you how I actually feel.  I am STUNNED and find the arrogance of people who are not medically trained arguing with someone who is just breath-taking.  I would never be arrogant enough to tell you how to practice law.  But you obviously think you know more about medical research than the NIH, the FDA, the CDC, and someone who spent her entire career in the medical profession in advanced practice, who is married to a physician who did research as part of his medical practice.  BTW, I know a lot about the pharmaceutical industry as my father worked for one.  I know more about incentives in the pharmaceutical industry than you ever will.  You say you are open to other opinions, but you are not as shown above.  As Forest Gump said so well, "and that is all I am going to say about that."  I retire from the coronavirus thread.  I have given you accurate information, but you obviously don't want it.


I am sorry you feel that way. I would never suggest that you could not analyze legal situations simply because you do not have a degree in law.

While I am not medically trained myself, close family members are. One of my best friends is a pharmacist. I have taken my questions to them, and asked for explanations of what I'm reading. I believe I am intelligent enough to understand what they are saying to me, despite my lack of medical training - just like I believe you have the ability to understand legal situations despite your lack of legal training.

I am very open to other opinions, and have been very appreciative of the fact that you cited real studies. But I am puzzled by the fact that when I point out differences between the studies you cite, and the study I cited, you aren't willing to acknowledge those or tell me where I am wrong. Instead, I'm called arrogant for questioning your position, based on the fact that you have more training. That is absolutely true, and I wouldn't presume to diagnose or treat someone with a medical problem. That doesn't mean I can't read and analyze reports and facts, and come to reasoned conclusions that are different than yours.

If I did so in a way that came across as offensive, you have my apologies. I truly thought we were having a civilized debate, but apparently, I was wrong.


----------



## AliOop

@rdc1978 my responses are in red.
Perhaps because the risk isn't worth the reward. Has the protocol at normal doses been well studied? which protocol; the one for malaria or C19? As far as I know, there have only been a few small scale, non-randomized studies for the C19 protocol. Surprising, given the results of the studies that are available and showing promise.

The FDA considers a number of factors in approving a drug for a particular condition.  And some of it is weighing the pros and cons. agreed

Malaria and arthritis and lupus may be worth the possible cons.  .  agreed, and the cons of HCQ are generally very minimal at low doses - unless there are other drug interactions or specific health conditions. The study by Dr. Z discusses some of the side effects.

Even the AMA cautioned care for doctors using HCQ off label for COVID patients. Yes, based on the withdrawn study that "proved" it was harmful.

Doctors are free to use HCQ off label for covid but that has nothing to do with the FDA giving express or implicit approval or prohibition of its use for COVID. Agreed as to the approval issue. My very point was that use of HCQ for treating C19 was outright banned for a time, - check out the ban in NY by Gov Cuomo. That is troubling from a governor who, as far as I know, has no medical training and per the logic espoused by medical folks here, should not be allowed to make these decisions. From all appearances, it was a political move simply because he despised the high profile national leader who was touting it as something helpful.

If it's working I'm sure doctors will write it off label.  Yes, IF they are aware that the prior negative study was withdrawn, and IF positive studies are publicized, showing its efficacy when combined with zinc. Those are big IFs.  There's also the issue of it being banned in some places (see prior response), and per my pharmacist friend, government putting pressure on the manufacturers to make it less available to pharmacies who order it. She says that's how it is done when they want to discourage use of a particular medication - just say, "Sorry, not in stock right now. Try again later."

Wait, are you assuming that the patients were overdosed because of their symptoms or is there some sort of admission or proof of overdosing? I am not assuming anything - I was reporting what I read.  I am not currently finding the original stories that I read, which went deeper into the reasons for withdrawal. I fear that they have probably been "scrubbed" - which is a disturbing trend whenever someone in charge decides that something is "misinformation." The best I can find at this moment is  this link confirming that the study was withdrawn.


----------



## rdc1978

AliOop said:


> @rdc1978 my responses are in red.
> Perhaps because the risk isn't worth the reward. Has the protocol at normal doses been well studied? which protocol; the one for malaria or C19? As far as I know, there have only been a few small scale, non-randomized studies for the C19 protocol. Surprising, given the results of the studies that are available and showing promise.
> 
> Yeah, I wouldn't expect the FDA to go back to emergency authorization with small non randomized studies.
> 
> Especially in this environment where people have suggested that the vaccine was too quickly authorized and then approved after larger studies.
> 
> The FDA considers a number of factors in approving a drug for a particular condition.  And some of it is weighing the pros and cons. agreed
> 
> Malaria and arthritis and lupus may be worth the possible cons.  .  agreed, and the cons of HCQ are generally very minimal at low doses - unless there are other drug interactions or specific health conditions. The study by Dr. Z discusses some of the side effects.
> 
> Even the AMA cautioned care for doctors using HCQ off label for COVID patients. Yes, based on the withdrawn study that "proved" it was harmful.
> 
> The AMA has also, to my knowledge, been clear that their guidance hasnt changed.
> 
> Doctors are free to use HCQ off label for covid but that has nothing to do with the FDA giving express or implicit approval or prohibition of its use for COVID. Agreed as to the approval issue. My very point was that use of HCQ for treating C19 was outright banned for a time, - check out the ban in NY by Gov Cuomo. That is troubling from a governor who, as far as I know, has no medical training and per the logic espoused by medical folks here, should not be allowed to make these decisions. From all appearances, it was a political move simply because he despised the high profile national leader who was touting it as something helpful.
> 
> But this has nothing to do with the FDA.  I imagine the governor was advised by medical experts and made that decision.
> 
> Perhaps the risk of having additional patients with side effects on an already burdened health care system wasn't worth the uncertain reward.
> 
> I wouldnt make the jump to governor Cuomo rejecting life saving treatment because he hated the president. I mean, operation warp speed WAS started under the last administration and I dont remember cuomo telling people not to get vaccinated or making disparaging remarks about the pharma companies who participated.
> 
> If it's working I'm sure doctors will write it off label.  Yes, IF they are aware that the prior negative study was withdrawn, and IF positive studies are publicized, showing its efficacy when combined with zinc. Those are big IFs.  There's also the issue of it being banned in some places (see prior response), and per my pharmacist friend, government putting pressure on the manufacturers to make it less available to pharmacies who order it. She says that's how it is done when they want to discourage use of a particular medication - just say, "Sorry, not in stock right now. Try again later."
> 
> Its also entirely possible that it's simply out of stock because people have been stockpiling it and there is no devious motive.
> 
> Most doctors I know take their duty to stay up on current treatments pretty seriously and I'd imagine that this is more true than ever for first-line doctors in the covid fight.
> 
> If you get into medicine it's probably to help people so you're looking for anything that makes sense.
> 
> And I'd bet a shiny bar of soap that doctors are specifically asked about HCQ all the time and are advised of all the best data out there in favor of it by people with access to the same information we have access to
> 
> Wait, are you assuming that the patients were overdosed because of their symptoms or is there some sort of admission or proof of overdosing? I am not assuming anything - I was reporting what I read.  I am not currently finding the original stories that I read, which went deeper into the reasons for withdrawal. I fear that they have probably been "scrubbed" - which is a disturbing trend whenever someone in charge decides that something is "misinformation." The best I can find at this moment is  this link confirming that the study was withdrawn.
> 
> well, notably, the link you provided wasn't scrubbed.  It seems like the problem was with the underlying data set and not necessarily overdosing.
> 
> The internet is big and wide with all sorts if a crazy stuff, so I'm not sure someone is policing the internet to get rid of information like this.
> 
> If these articles that you're relying on are being removed it may be by the authors themselves.
> 
> I think its why I try to choose better known long standing sources when I can.


----------



## AliOop

All good points @rdc1978 .

I did find this article published in the American Journal of Epidemiology, written by Dr. Harvey A. Risch, Department of Chronic Disease Epidemiology, Yale School of Public Health, from May 2020. He makes a very impassioned plea for early outpatient treatment with HCQ + AZ (an antibiotic that also has antiviral properties, or effects - not sure of correct terminology there). He strongly cautions that it is not appropriate for in-patient use, since the presentation and thus treatment of the disease is entirely different at that point.

He is open about the fact that there are no randomized, double-blind trials to support this protocol. He acknowledges that those would be ideal. But he makes the point, so much more eloquently than I could, or did, that we don't have the luxury of waiting for those. Small scale studies in France, the US, and Brazil show a 50x benefit gained from this treatment, when compared to the results for those who are not treated, Any risks from using low-dose HCQ are far outweighed by the number of lives that could be saved.

What is sad is that this article is 18 months old. I have several friends at quarantining at home right now with C19 - all of them with comorbidities, including MS, obesity, 60+years, cardiovascular disease, and arthritis. NONE of them were offered monoclonal antibodies, HCQ+zinc, or any other early treatment. ALL of them were told to go home and isolate. SOME of them were told to take zinc, C, and D. Others didn't even get that. All were told to get oximeters and come to the hospital if their SAT levels dropped.

I don't live in a huge metro area, but it's big enough and modern enough that the doctors here should be aware of the demonstrated benefits of early treatment. It breaks my heart that they are not, and it's part of why I'm clanging the gong. My friends should not be at much greater risk for dying because the medical powers that be are unwilling to acknowledge the difference between effective protocols for inpatient v. outpatient treatment.


----------



## szaza

AliOop said:


> But let's say you are right - where are the double-blind, randomized long-term trials for the C-19 vaccine? Why the double-standard to get emergency approval for that, but not emergency approval for some of these other treatments?


I'm confused by this statement. The vaccine approval is based on double-blind, randomized, placebo controlled studies with tens of thousands of participants. 
For example, here's the phase 3 trial publication of the pfizer vaccine:








						Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine - PubMed
					

A two-dose regimen of BNT162b2 conferred 95% protection against Covid-19 in persons 16 years of age or older. Safety over a median of 2 months was similar to that of other viral vaccines. (Funded by BioNTech and Pfizer; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04368728.).




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



And this is Moderna:








						Efficacy and Safety of the mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine - PubMed
					

The mRNA-1273 vaccine showed 94.1% efficacy at preventing Covid-19 illness, including severe disease. Aside from transient local and systemic reactions, no safety concerns were identified. (Funded by the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority and the National Institute of Allergy...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



And Johnson:








						Safety and Efficacy of Single-Dose Ad26.COV2.S Vaccine against Covid-19 - PubMed
					

A single dose of Ad26.COV2.S protected against symptomatic Covid-19 and asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection and was effective against severe-critical disease, including hospitalization and death. Safety appeared to be similar to that in other phase 3 trials of Covid-19 vaccines. (Funded by Janssen...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



@TheGecko maybe you find these interesting as well.



AliOop said:


> Another point he made is that for C19 (unlike for other viruses), zinc does require a delivery vehicle, because it needs help crossing the blood-brain barrier. Not that it won't get there, but it won't get there in the amounts needed to do what it needs to do. HCQ serves that purpose, or quercetin can be an alternative (he quotes a third, but I don't recall what it was). So those who keep saying HCQ doesn't work, are missing the point of combining HCQ with zinc to combat the virus.


Why would it need to cross the blood-brain barrier? I haven't heard much about covid-19 encefalitis (yet).


----------



## Susie

@szaza Yes, I know those studies took place, I live in one of the areas where they were taking place and we heard daily how many thousands of people had joined those studies locally. And my neighbor down the street (I live about 1 hour away from the testing center) was one of them. She does not work and wanted to do her bit to help. But it took her all day every time she went due to the sheer amount of people that were participating in the study.

And I have not heard of an encephalitis yet, either. Nor meningitis. And although Zinc has been proven to some (small) degree as causing a mild reduction of rhinovirus (head cold) count in the pharynx (throat), I really can't find a lot of supporting data from any sources I trust regarding it's efficacy for Co-vid. I will continue to look, though, as there is always new information out there.


----------



## Talispa1

The inventor of Vaseline, *Robert Chesebrough*, believed in the product so much that he ate a spoonful of it every day.

More importantly we should be talking about Radithor. It could hold the key to ending questionable COVID-19 treatments.









						Radithor - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## AliOop

szaza said:


> I'm confused by this statement. The vaccine approval is based on double-blind, randomized, placebo controlled studies with tens of thousands of participants.
> 
> Why would it need to cross the blood-brain barrier? I haven't heard much about covid-19 encefalitis (yet).


Sorry,  you are correct, the trials do meet those tests. They just aren't long-term, which was the point I was trying to make (apparently not as clearly as I thought). The lack of long-term studies compounds my concern with the separate C19 vaccine reporting adverse event system, the results of which are not public, as the VAERS system is. There are reports by doctors saying their adverse event submissions are being denied or removed.

Without long-term trials, without access to all adverse event statistics, and with large numbers of medical professionals here in the US walking off the job due to vaccine mandates, the public will continue to be skeptical about efficacy and safety.

Thank you for also catching another misstatement. The HCQ is not for the purpose of helping the zinc cross the blood-brain barrier, but to more effectively work on an intra-cellular level. I don't have access at the moment to where this was explained in more accurate medical terms, but I will come back and edit this when I do.

@rdc1978 to continue our previous discussion, I did find one paper here that explains the serious methodological concerns regarding the now-withdrawn study that claimed HCQ would be dangerous for C19 patients. The author of this paper concludes that the study data was deliberately manipulated in order to prove something the study authors wanted to prove.

@Susie I hope you will consider reading the attached article by Dr. Harvey A. Risch, Department of Chronic Disease Epidemiology, Yale School of Public Health, which was published in the American Journal of Epidemiology. He acknowledges that the studies showing efficacy of the HCQ protocol are small, and he urges more long-term studies (some of which are underway). So he is not ignoring established medical standards for legitimizing treatments. He is, however, urging that we don't ignore the astounding efficacy shown in these several small studies, when the recommended protocol is used for early treatment. I find that approach very reasonable and thoughtful.

@Talispa1 I am not sure if you were attempting to be humorous, or suggesting that these doctors are prescribing the equivalent of liquid poison. If it is the former, thank you for helping us lighten up. If it is the latter, well, I hope you will read the article I attached below. These doctors are using very safe drugs that are taken by multiple millions around the world for other illnesses - hardly the equivalent of drinking radioactive water. EDIT: I just realized that you might have been comparing the vaccines to the radioactive water, not the treatment protocol I was discussing. Hopefully you can clarify?


----------



## rdc1978

@AliOop - I don't take the concerns about methodology lightly but I think it's unreasonable to make the jump to malice. 

From what I can tell the concerns are threefold, and are centered around the idea that because not all of the studied cases were of the same severity the results cannot be trusted.  

And that becsuse some of the patients in in the untreated group had been treated with azrithromiacian it was not fair to call them untreated.

I doubt these are best practices in formulating a study and I can see why the underlying data set was suspicious. But the tone of the response? seems weirdly aggressive for someone who is just hanging out facts.  IMO.


----------



## szaza

@Susie there's a test site close to me as well. I got an email that they were looking for participants in phase 3 trials for J&J early this year (jan/feb) but I got my invitation to get vaccinated around the same time (so no risk of placebo) and therefore didn't sign up. 

@AliOop the vaccine trials have been set up to monitor adverse events in the timeframe in which they are expected to occur, based on experience with other vaccines (as stated earlier, super long-term effects, years after vaccination have never occurred). So I'm wondering what kind of timeframe you're thinking about when you talk about long-term effects? Please keep in mind that if a vaccine takes a long time to develop, that doesn't necessarily mean that phase 3 clinical trial participants have been monitored for a longer time. 

Another thing that has been bugging me a bit about the 'we don't know the long-term side effects of vaccination' argument is that besides the fact that we don't have reason to believe covid vaccines might cause side effects besides the ones we already know of, we have ample evidence that a covid infection does come with a significant risk of long term side effects. I fail to see how vaccines are still considered to be the 'dangerous' option between the two. 



AliOop said:


> I will come back and edit this when I do.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Susie said:


> Our freestanding ERs and hospital based ERs are administering monoclonal antibodies (casirivimab and imdevimab) to anyone who has an oxygen saturation (SpO2) of 90% or less, then sending them home with oxygen. Our hospitals are just that full.


Wow! That is bad. It is so disheartening. One of my nieces lives in the Houston area. She and her husband have both been vaccinated, but their young children (4 & 2 months) are not. How bad is it there? Should I be praying extra hard for them?



szaza said:


> Another thing that has been bugging me a bit about the 'we don't know the long-term side effects of vaccination' argument is that besides the fact that we don't have reason to believe covid vaccines might cause side effects besides the ones we already know of, we have ample evidence that a covid infection does come with a significant risk of long term side effects. I fail to see how vaccines are still considered to be the 'dangerous' option between the two.


This thought is stated so much better than I stated it, but that was my final conclusion when it came to making a decision about getting the vaccine.


----------



## Susie

Nona'sFarm said:


> Wow! That is bad. It is so disheartening. One of my nieces lives in the Houston area. She and her husband have both been vaccinated, but their young children (4 & 2 months) are not. How bad is it there? Should I be praying extra hard for them?



It's bad. I heard on the news that there were only two pediatric ICU beds available, but I did not catch which city. Texas needs all the prayers it can get.

I ran across this article just now: Video: Idaho Doctor Makes Baseless Claims About Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines - FactCheck.org

And this: Texas Poison Center Calls Triple for People Treating COVID-19 With Ivermectin

And sadly, this: Houston reports first pediatric Covid-19 death in youth with no underlying conditions

Off topic briefly, Louisiana is staring down the throat of a Cat 4 Hurricane Ida this Sunday evening. All prayers are welcome.


----------



## melinda48

lenarenee said:


> This doesn't sound right. But where are these doctors? What vaccine did these hospitalized patients have?  I have daily access to some of the best and most current information out there, and this is not what was reported in the UK (as of end of July)  or the US.


HCQ was used in Vietnam to prevent malaria (50 years ago). My husband and his Marine comrades were dosed daily. Semi-daily - he tells me it gave them the “runs” and so they tried to avoid taking it as they were instructed. There have been zero ill effects from this drug. Doesn’t matter which vaccine they took, if they have type-two diabetes, are obese, have any lung-related issues, they are far more susceptible to Covid. We are not give the information we need to make a well-informed decision. My husband and I wear masks when requested; otherwise, we do not. We try to get at least 20 minutes a day in the outdoors (preferably when the sun is shining for the vitamin D), neither of us has a co-morbidity. We live as we always have and hope it is enough - and yes, we have both taken the vaccine. I think he got Pfizer; I got Moderna.


----------



## rdc1978

melinda48 said:


> HCQ was used in Vietnam to prevent malaria (50 years ago). My husband and his Marine comrades were dosed daily. Semi-daily - he tells me it gave them the “runs” and so they tried to avoid taking it as they were instructed. There have been zero ill effects from this drug. Doesn’t matter which vaccine they took, if they have type-two diabetes, are obese, have any lung-related issues, they are far more susceptible to Covid. We are not give the information we need to make a well-informed decision. My husband and I wear masks when requested; otherwise, we do not. We try to get at least 20 minutes a day in the outdoors (preferably when the sun is shining for the vitamin D), neither of us has a co-morbidity. We live as we always have and hope it is enough - and yes, we have both taken the vaccine. I think he got Pfizer; I got Moderna.


 
More susceptible to contracting covid or to experiencing long term effects/hospitalization even when vaccinated?  Is there a source for this information? 

Here is a list of potential HCQ side effects.  









						Hydroxychloroquine Side Effects: Common, Severe, Long Term - Drugs.com
					

Learn about the potential side effects of hydroxychloroquine. Includes common and rare side effects information for consumers and healthcare professionals.




					www.drugs.com


----------



## ClarityArtisanSoaps

szaza said:


> I'm confused by this statement. The vaccine approval is based on double-blind, randomized, placebo controlled studies with tens of thousands of participants.
> For example, here's the phase 3 trial publication of the pfizer vaccine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine - PubMed
> 
> 
> A two-dose regimen of BNT162b2 conferred 95% protection against Covid-19 in persons 16 years of age or older. Safety over a median of 2 months was similar to that of other viral vaccines. (Funded by BioNTech and Pfizer; ClinicalTrials.gov number, NCT04368728.).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is Moderna:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Efficacy and Safety of the mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine - PubMed
> 
> 
> The mRNA-1273 vaccine showed 94.1% efficacy at preventing Covid-19 illness, including severe disease. Aside from transient local and systemic reactions, no safety concerns were identified. (Funded by the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority and the National Institute of Allergy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Johnson:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Safety and Efficacy of Single-Dose Ad26.COV2.S Vaccine against Covid-19 - PubMed
> 
> 
> A single dose of Ad26.COV2.S protected against symptomatic Covid-19 and asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection and was effective against severe-critical disease, including hospitalization and death. Safety appeared to be similar to that in other phase 3 trials of Covid-19 vaccines. (Funded by Janssen...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @TheGecko maybe you find these interesting as well.
> 
> 
> Why would it need to cross the blood-brain barrier? I haven't heard much about covid-19 encefalitis (yet).


i got the booster (autoimmune) ra, hashis, ugh this one was awful! no one allowed in without a mask!



rdc1978 said:


> More susceptible to contracting covid or to experiencing long term effects/hospitalization even when vaccinated?  Is there a source for this information?
> 
> Here is a list of potential HCQ side effects.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hydroxychloroquine Side Effects: Common, Severe, Long Term - Drugs.com
> 
> 
> Learn about the potential side effects of hydroxychloroquine. Includes common and rare side effects information for consumers and healthcare professionals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.drugs.com


i take this too



ClarityArtisanSoaps said:


> i take this too


autoimmune disoreders can make u tired thats why the is coffee


----------



## Susie

I have a call in to my hematologist to get on the list for a booster. I know it will be only a month or so earlier than everyone else can get it, but I am immunocompromised, so we don't know how much immunity my body produced by the first two vaccines. We really need a titer to check how much immunity someone has. With the huge push to just get a vaccine and tests out, I don't think anyone thought to test to see how much immunity someone develops. 

I am just really grateful I work from home. They closed my office until further notice due to too many people needing to be quarantined all at the same time. And that is just one of our DFW offices, there are two others closed also. I, however, just keep making my five step commute to the office and clock in.


----------



## Bubble Agent

I am so sorry for everyone who is affected by this pandemic.

I am so *incredibly grateful *that I am so blessed to be fully vaccinated. Not because I expect the vaccine to protect me 100% against covid, but it makes the likelyhood of me getting deadly ill from it at least lowered.
I have a set of complex health issues and got recently diagnosed with a lung decease that makes me high risk. I am SO glad I never smoked, can`t imagine even being alive if I had done that, when I live every day struggling with this issue the way I do!

I still wear a mask when I have to go to the grocery store, and when I am at a mall etc, because my lung specialist told me it would absolutely lower the risk for me, now that so many are getting sloppy.

_ETA: I am also gratefull that I can still make soaps! I don`t get sick by soaping, only straining myself. If I could not make soaps I would go into a depression me thinks. Silver linings, people. lol_


----------



## TheGecko

AliOop said:


> Without long-term trials, without access to all adverse event statistics, and with large numbers of medical professionals here in the US walking off the job due to vaccine mandates, the public will continue to be skeptical about efficacy and safety.



It is concerning when medical professionals are risking/have risked...their jobs rather than be vaccinated.

I have an appointment next Thursday to get vaccinated...not because I have 'seen the light' or feel comfortable about the vaccine, but because hubby has an important doctor's appointment coming up and I've been told that I can't attend because I'm not vaccinated, and I would need to be vaccinated at least two weeks prior. They won't accept a negative test, or allow me to sit in the parking lot to attend telephonically.

I can't even begin to express how much I *HATE* (not a word I use lightly) this!


----------



## rdc1978

Susie said:


> I am just really grateful I work from home. They closed my office until further notice due to too many people needing to be quarantined all at the same time. And that is just one of our DFW offices, there are two others closed also. I, however, just keep making my five step commute to the office and clock in.



I feel this statement in my soul! 

We only ever went into the office once a week, but once things got serious we stayed home and I'm so grateful. 

The elevator situation alone would be a disaster. 

Before the rise of Corona The administration had been trying to take away our right to teleworking in the new contract but an arbitration board struck it down. 

Interestingly their argument failed, in part because people were actually much more productive at home. 

I think there was an assumption that people slack off when they work from home, but it's not true. 

If anything people don't have the distractions like donuts, lunch planning that starts at 9am and constant drop bys for a chat. 

And I think, at least in our case, people are so happy to have the opportunity to work from home that they are conscientious and do not abuse it.


----------



## melinda48

Susie said:


> It's bad. I heard on the news that there were only two pediatric ICU beds available, but I did not catch which city. Texas needs all the prayers it can get.
> 
> I ran across this article just now: Video: Idaho Doctor Makes Baseless Claims About Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines - FactCheck.org
> 
> And this: Texas Poison Center Calls Triple for People Treating COVID-19 With Ivermectin
> 
> And sadly, this: Houston reports first pediatric Covid-19 death in youth with no underlying conditions
> 
> Off topic briefly, Louisiana is staring down the throat of a Cat 4 Hurricane Ida this Sunday evening. All prayers are welcome.





szaza said:


> I only glossed over the article, but some things stood out to me.
> First of all, most of the studies included are pre-print, in other words not yet peer-reviewed. Obviously preprints are important during a pandemic, when you want to know results quickly, but it's something to keep in mind.
> Furthermore, if you look at the graphs of the meta-analysis (statistical compilation of data from different studies), only 2 studies had statistically significant outcomes. One of those (Elgazzar et al.) recently got retracted over suspicions of plagiarism and data falsification. The other one is getting an awful lot of weight, being the only study in a category.
> Lastly, only 3 studies get a perfect score when it comes to bias/study quality, only one of those is included in the meta-analysis and that one is actually reporting a possible negative effect of ivermectin on all-cause mortality.
> I think it is concerns like these that prevent most doctors from gladly jumping on the ivermectin bandwagon (even though they probably wished they could, because we all crave a miracle cure).


Were they referring to an overdose quantity of ivermectin? It will always cause death if heavily over-dosed. Aside from that, it is an outstanding addition to HCQ from what I have heard from several doctors.



TheGecko said:


> It is concerning when medical professionals are risking/have risked...their jobs rather than be vaccinated.
> 
> I have an appointment next Thursday to get vaccinated...not because I have 'seen the light' or feel comfortable about the vaccine, but because hubby has an important doctor's appointment coming up and I've been told that I can't attend because I'm not vaccinated, and I would need to be vaccinated at least two weeks prior. They won't accept a negative test, or allow me to sit in the parking lot to attend telephonically.
> 
> I can't even begin to express how much I *HATE* (not a word I use lightly) this!


I understand. It is beyond frustrating. And the ridiculous thing is this virus (in several forms) will be with us for decades. There is no such thing as a magic bullet or miracle cure.


----------



## KiwiMoose

rdc1978 said:


> I feel this statement in my soul!
> 
> We only ever went into the office once a week, but once things got serious we stayed home and I'm so grateful.
> 
> The elevator situation alone would be a disaster.
> 
> Before the rise of Corona The administration had been trying to take away our right to teleworking in the new contract but an arbitration board struck it down.
> 
> Interestingly their argument failed, in part because people were actually much more productive at home.
> 
> I think there was an assumption that people slack off when they work from home, but it's not true.
> 
> If anything people don't have the distractions like donuts, lunch planning that starts at 9am and constant drop bys for a chat.
> 
> And I think, at least in our case, people are so happy to have the opportunity to work from home that they are conscientious and do not abuse it.


Much prefer to work from home - I can do everything from here including meeting with students via Zoom.  I do find that my work day changes though, in that I don't work for a concentrated period of time like I would if I was at work - rather I spread my work out across the day/evening, interspersed with bits of 'home' stuff. Sometimes I'm still doing work at 11.30 pm!


----------



## rdc1978

KiwiMoose said:


> Much prefer to work from home - I can do everything from here including meeting with students via Zoom.  I do find that my work day changes though, in that I don't work for a concentrated period of time like I would if I was at work - rather I spread my work out across the day/evening, interspersed with bits of 'home' stuff. Sometimes I'm still doing work at 11.30 pm!



My sister is a teacher and she does her work in a similar way!  

I imagine you're getting your work done as good, if not better, and that its in a way that works for you!   It takes all types to make the world go around, and it seems like technology is increasingly allowing people to work in a way that is better for them and just as good, if not better, for the employer.  Although, I HAAAAAATE how I look on zoom!  I either need a ring light or botox!


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Susie said:


> It's bad. I heard on the news that there were only two pediatric ICU beds available, but I did not catch which city. Texas needs all the prayers it can get.
> 
> I ran across this article just now: Video: Idaho Doctor Makes Baseless Claims About Safety of COVID-19 Vaccines - FactCheck.org
> 
> And this: Texas Poison Center Calls Triple for People Treating COVID-19 With Ivermectin
> 
> And sadly, this: Houston reports first pediatric Covid-19 death in youth with no underlying conditions
> 
> Off topic briefly, Louisiana is staring down the throat of a Cat 4 Hurricane Ida this Sunday evening. All prayers are welcome.


Wow, too much - going to have to turn off the news for awhile, send prayers and donations - covid, hurricane, Afghanistan,  the unrelenting heat....


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Susie said:


> I have a call in to my hematologist to get on the list for a booster. I know it will be only a month or so earlier than everyone else can get it, but I am immunocompromised, so we don't know how much immunity my body produced by the first two vaccines. We really need a titer to check how much immunity someone has. With the huge push to just get a vaccine and tests out, I don't think anyone thought to test to see how much immunity someone develops.
> 
> I am just really grateful I work from home. They closed my office until further notice due to too many people needing to be quarantined all at the same time. And that is just one of our DFW offices, there are two others closed also. I, however, just keep making my five step commute to the office and clock in.


My understanding is there is a way to check your level of immunity, but it must be hard to get for whatever reason. One of my friends, here in Virginia, USA, just got her third shot. She has an autoimmune disease. As she stated, it was to bring her immunity up to a "normal " person's.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

TheGecko said:


> It is concerning when medical professionals are risking/have risked...their jobs rather than be vaccinated.
> 
> I have an appointment next Thursday to get vaccinated...not because I have 'seen the light' or feel comfortable about the vaccine, but because hubby has an important doctor's appointment coming up and I've been told that I can't attend because I'm not vaccinated, and I would need to be vaccinated at least two weeks prior. They won't accept a negative test, or allow me to sit in the parking lot to attend telephonically.
> 
> I can't even begin to express how much I *HATE* (not a word I use lightly) this!


I am sorry you are forced to do something you feel strongly conflicted about. Nobody likes to be forced to do anything.  As always, best wishes to you and your husband.  Hope his medical procedure has a positive outcome.


----------



## Susie

Nona'sFarm said:


> My understanding is there is a way to check your level of immunity, but it must be hard to get for whatever reason. One of my friends, here in Virginia, USA, just got her third shot. She has an autoimmune disease. As she stated, it was to bring her immunity up to a "normal " person's.



The theory of immunocompromised patients is that we are not capable of creating the antibodies like a normal person. So, your friend is correct. However, the current tests can not be used to measure the amount of immunity you have. They test whether or not you have been exposed to or had a vaccine for covid, just not the amount of immunity you have. COVID-19 Antibody Testing | Labcorp

So, out of concern that I am still insufficiently protected against it, I am getting a booster. Either through the "immunocompromised" group or a month or so later when it is available to everyone.


----------



## TheGecko

Nona'sFarm said:


> I am sorry you are forced to do something you feel strongly conflicted about. Nobody likes to be forced to do anything.  As always, best wishes to you and your husband.  Hope his medical procedure has a positive outcome.



Thank you.  Not a procedure, just an appointment, but he has been having some issues that need to be addressed and because his short-term memory is shot, it's important that I attend.  And we have tried other solutions...emailing the doctor, Lists...but they aren't as effective, especially when he forgets the list.  

And doctors, or rather, our 'health systems' aren't what they used to be.  I can remember a time when doctors were focused on the whole person, when they would ask, "Besides what you came in for, how are you overall?  Is there anything else going on?"


----------



## lenarenee

Susie said:


> The theory of immunocompromised patients is that we are not capable of creating the antibodies like a normal person. So, your friend is correct. However, the current tests can not be used to measure the amount of immunity you have. They test whether or not you have been exposed to or had a vaccine for covid, just not the amount of immunity you have. COVID-19 Antibody Testing | Labcorp
> 
> So, out of concern that I am still insufficiently protected against it, I am getting a booster. Either through the "immunocompromised" group or a month or so later when it is available to everyone.



Susie, a couple of questions for you.  There's more to the immune system than antibodies; B cells, T cells, neutrophils, monocytes, etc. Would the booster host also increase those for immunocompromised people?

What are your thoughts on giving inoculations without aspiration?  One theory as to the rare incidence of blood clots from the vaccine is because shot are not aspirated any more. There are studies from previous years about what happens when a shot is accidentally given intravascularly, it can result in....blood clots.  Here's one of my sources:  . He's got a couple of videos on this, so I hope I picked the one where he references those studies.  Dr. Thompson has been a nurse, and long time nurse educator in the UK.


----------



## Susie

Most vaccines, including Co-vid19, are given into the layer of fat just below the skin (subcutaneously). While you certainly have blood vessels in that fatty layer, they are primarily capillaries. Even if the capillaries develop a clot, the clots don't go anywhere. Just like if you get a clot from an intravenous (IV), it is in a peripheral vein, and they almost never move. I've had one, and they are miserable, but not very dangerous. The clots you have to worry about are in the deep veins or arteries in the body. Those blood vessels are big enough that you have a real danger of them moving somewhere you don't want them to be.

I watch his videos periodically as he looks at things differently than other people, and he measures as usually/mostly credible on my "bovine fertilizer" meter. Almost no one measures as absolutely credible. I cross reference/look for other opinions on everything, so don't take that as a criticism on him specifically. What bothers me the most on this particular video are the following in no particular order:  

Your liver is on the right, your spleen on the left.

The Co-vid vaccines available in the US are mRNA, not adenovirus.

The vaccine is given into the subcutaneous layer, not the deltoid muscle. Big difference. Anyone who is giving this vaccine properly will not be giving it into the deltoid muscle.  Muscles have larger blood vessels than the subcutaneous layer. There is a much higher risk of causing a blood clot when giving injections into the muscle, and aspiration is still considered best practice when giving an intramuscular injection.

I am wondering when this video was made, because lots of what he is talking about is not true of what we are seeing from current vaccines. It seems to be dated info. I tried to check when it was made, but I am currently distracted by multiple news feeds on Hurricane Ida.


----------



## Susie

TheGecko said:


> Thank you.  Not a procedure, just an appointment, but he has been having some issues that need to be addressed and because his short-term memory is shot, it's important that I attend.  And we have tried other solutions...emailing the doctor, Lists...but they aren't as effective, especially when he forgets the list.
> 
> And doctors, or rather, our 'health systems' aren't what they used to be.  I can remember a time when doctors were focused on the whole person, when they would ask, "Besides what you came in for, how are you overall?  Is there anything else going on?"



It is important for everyone to advocate for themselves/their family members. And once anyone has any memory issues, for them to bring someone to help listen and ask questions.  This is even true whenever a major diagnosis is imminent, as bad news tends to drown out all other information that might need to be heard.

I am sorry to say that I am too young (even though I am 58) to recall when even most doctors asked how you were generally. And certainly our current health care industry is not a gleaming representation of the best medical care possible. I strongly suggest that everyone keep track of all symptoms that are unusual for them. And whenever you go to a doctor, any doctor, bring them up. Smart doctors will listen, and if needed, refer wherever you really need to go. But there are many syndromes that have symptoms that do not appear to be related, but they are all part of a bigger picture that may lead to a diagnosis, and from there, a potential treatment or at least management.


----------



## lenarenee

Susie said:


> Most vaccines, including Co-vid19, are given into the layer of fat just below the skin (subcutaneously). While you certainly have blood vessels in that fatty layer, they are primarily capillaries. Even if the capillaries develop a clot, the clots don't go anywhere. Just like if you get a clot from an intravenous (IV), it is in a peripheral vein, and they almost never move. I've had one, and they are miserable, but not very dangerous. The clots you have to worry about are in the deep veins or arteries in the body. Those blood vessels are big enough that you have a real danger of them moving somewhere you don't want them to be.
> 
> I watch his videos periodically as he looks at things differently than other people, and he measures as usually/mostly credible on my "bovine fertilizer" meter. Almost no one measures as absolutely credible. I cross reference/look for other opinions on everything, so don't take that as a criticism on him specifically. What bothers me the most on this particular video are the following in no particular order:
> 
> Your liver is on the right, your spleen on the left.
> 
> The Co-vid vaccines available in the US are mRNA, not adenovirus.
> 
> The vaccine is given into the subcutaneous layer, not the deltoid muscle. Big difference. Anyone who is giving this vaccine properly will not be giving it into the deltoid muscle.  Muscles have larger blood vessels than the subcutaneous layer. There is a much higher risk of causing a blood clot when giving injections into the muscle, and aspiration is still considered best practice when giving an intramuscular injection.
> 
> I am wondering when this video was made, because lots of what he is talking about is not true of what we are seeing from current vaccines. It seems to be dated info. I tried to check when it was made, but I am currently distracted by multiple news feeds on Hurricane Ida.




Thank you so much for your input!!  I thought all shots were into muscle!  Well, good to know that my....uh...extra adipose tissue provided insurance that the needle reached the right place!

The video is from June 2021.  When I listened to this; I didn't differentiate between mRNA and adenovirus vaccines since I knew the UK used the Pfizer vaccine , which is the one I got. I'm going to watch again with "new eyes" after what you said.  Or, just quit worrying and prepare to make some soap

I haven't caught up on Ida; is Texas in it's sights?  I'm just horrified at the timing of the covid surge and its affects on the south, and now this....


----------



## Susie

I'm in Texas, but all of my family and friends remain in Louisiana. And they are all over in Louisiana.  I still own property there. And you can ask my husband, if a storm is hitting Louisiana, I am going to be obsessively watching it.


----------



## KiwiMoose

TheGecko said:


> Thank you.  Not a procedure, just an appointment, but he has been having some issues that need to be addressed and because his short-term memory is shot, it's important that I attend.  And we have tried other solutions...emailing the doctor, Lists...but they aren't as effective, especially when he forgets the list.
> 
> And doctors, or rather, our 'health systems' aren't what they used to be.  I can remember a time when doctors were focused on the whole person, when they would ask, "Besides what you came in for, how are you overall?  Is there anything else going on?"


Ahh yes - I remember those days!  Now it's like - only one 'problem' per appointment please.  Well, how are they (we) to know that the problems aren't collectively all symptoms for something major?


----------



## FiddleFoot

I just want to jump in here to say that I have really enjoyed reading the thoughts on vaccines in this thread. Even though opinions vary they are for the most part civily and intelligently articulated. If only the rest of the world were as fabulous as us soapmakers!


----------



## Susie

We try. No one learns anything when people are arguing and angry.


----------



## TheGecko

KiwiMoose said:


> Ahh yes - I remember those days! Now it's like - only one 'problem' per appointment please. Well, how are they (we) to know that the problems aren't collectively all symptoms for something major?



I had a skin tag in my 'pit'.  Now I'm not going to make an appointment JUST to have it removed, figured I'd get it done the next time I saw the doctor.  Oh no...I came in for 'this', they can't take care of 'that'.


----------



## rparrny

Kazin1 said:


> Apparently face masks only help you if there are people coughing/sneezing so if you have a few masks when you go and there are people sneezing that's something. About three years ago I travelled home to Australia from UK and got a respiratory infection that went through every tube including my ears and eyes. Last time I flew home we took disinfectant wipes to wipe down table, belt and buckle, armrests, entertainment unit, the works. Even the suitcases when we got them off the carousel. Use a nasal spray which makes your nose run as infections get stuck in your nose and go from there. Plenty of hand sanitiser frequently. Needless to say, neither of us even got the sniffles.


Actually face masks (with the exception of N95) not only don't work, they increase your risk of death.  During the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918, the majority of people that died, did not die of the Spanish Flu, they died from bacterial pnuemonia from wide spread adoption of wearing masks!  It was the first time wearing masks was adopted.  Pathogens thrive on moist, warm areas so the inside of the mask is the perfect breeding ground.  There was a whole paper written about it years ago...guess who co-authored it?  Anthony Fauci!


----------



## paradisi

rparrny said:


> Actually face masks (with the exception of N95) not only don't work, they increase your risk of death.  During the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918, the majority of people that died, did not die of the Spanish Flu, they died from bacterial pnuemonia from wide spread adoption of wearing masks!  It was the first time wearing masks was adopted.  Pathogens thrive on moist, warm areas so the inside of the mask is the perfect breeding ground.  There was a whole paper written about it years ago...guess who co-authored it?  Anthony Fauci!


Complete, dangerous nonsense.
This is shameful.


----------



## Susie

rparrny said:


> Actually face masks (with the exception of N95) not only don't work, they increase your risk of death.  During the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918, the majority of people that died, did not die of the Spanish Flu, they died from bacterial pnuemonia from wide spread adoption of wearing masks!  It was the first time wearing masks was adopted.  Pathogens thrive on moist, warm areas so the inside of the mask is the perfect breeding ground.  There was a whole paper written about it years ago...guess who co-authored it?  Anthony Fauci!



Most patients who die from complications of the flu, die from pneumonia. I would estimate (hunting data now) that it is easily 96%. And of those, usually it is from bacteria that live in the nose and throat.  And that has been true since humans developed the ability to test for bacteria. Why, you ask? Because most bacteria that make us sick are found somewhere on or in the human body. But when a bacteria that one area of your body has a method of controlling gets to another part of the body that does not have a method of controlling it, it makes us ill.  Period. And people who are already sick have an overstretched immune system. That leaves them open to getting sick from germs that normally they could fight off. If you are not easily squeamish or freaked out about germs, go research all of the bacteria in the nose and mouth. Then go research all the bacteria that live on your skin. We really are completely inhabited inside and out by bacteria. That does not, however, prove a link between masks and deaths from pneumonia. That just proves that it was bacteria from the nose and mouth. Correlation does not imply causation. 

The others die from either Guillian-Barre Syndrome (GBS) or other nosocomial (hospital acquired) infections such as MRSA or VRE. GBS is manageable with use of a ventilator and other supportive therapy while it runs its course. 

Back in 2020, hospitals were issuing masks to employees that they were expected to use for a full week or more. Even just the blue surgical masks. I assure you that both employee health and infection control were running cultures on those masks to check for bacteria. They had to. Dead healthcare workers do not provide help to anyone. And lawsuits are expensive.


----------



## TheGecko

rparrny said:


> Actually face masks (with the exception of N95) not only don't work, they increase your risk of death.  During the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918, the majority of people that died, did not die of the Spanish Flu, they died from bacterial pnuemonia from wide spread adoption of wearing masks!  It was the first time wearing masks was adopted.  Pathogens thrive on moist, warm areas so the inside of the mask is the perfect breeding ground.  There was a whole paper written about it years ago...guess who co-authored it?  Anthony Fauci!



I wouldn't trust Fauci if he told me the sky was blue on a sunny day!

This is where good old common sense comes in.  You clean your kitchen counters do you not?  Wash your dishes?  Why wouldn't you do the same with your masks? I have paper masks and I have cloth masks...in my vehicle, in my purse, at work.  I always carry extra paper and cloth masks in my glove box.  I have two masks for work.  I also have three 99% IPA spritzers; one in my purse, one at work, one in my desk at home.  While the paper masks are technically for single use only, I will wear them a few times before disposing on them.  Between uses, I spritz them with alcohol.  It's the same with my cloth masks, they get spritzed and washed.  Mind you, I don't have to wear a mask every day all day at work, only when I'm consulting with another co-worker or a client.  If I did have to do so, I would have a sufficient supply to change at least once an hour.


----------



## szaza

Susie said:


> Most patients who die from complications of the flu, die from pneumonia. I would estimate (hunting data now) that it is easily 96%. And of those, usually it is from bacteria that live in the nose and throat.  And that has been true since humans developed the ability to test for bacteria. Why, you ask? Because most bacteria that make us sick are found somewhere on or in the human body. But when a bacteria that one area of your body has a method of controlling gets to another part of the body that does not have a method of controlling it, it makes us ill.  Period. And people who are already sick have an overstretched immune system. That leaves them open to getting sick from germs that normally they could fight off. If you are not easily squeamish or freaked out about germs, go research all of the bacteria in the nose and mouth. Then go research all the bacteria that live on your skin. We really are completely inhabited inside and out by bacteria. That does not, however, prove a link between masks and deaths from pneumonia. That just proves that it was bacteria from the nose and mouth. Correlation does not imply causation.
> 
> The others die from either Guillian-Barre Syndrome (GBS) or other nosocomial (hospital acquired) infections such as MRSA or VRE. GBS is manageable with use of a ventilator and other supportive therapy while it runs its course.
> 
> Back in 2020, hospitals were issuing masks to employees that they were expected to use for a full week or more. Even just the blue surgical masks. I assure you that both employee health and infection control were running cultures on those masks to check for bacteria. They had to. Dead healthcare workers do not provide help to anyone. And lawsuits are expensive.



A while back there was an article in the news about an opportunistic mold infection playing a role in covid-19 morbidity. Don't have much more info on it, but had to think about it when reading this.


----------



## Megan

rparrny said:


> Actually face masks (with the exception of N95) not only don't work, they increase your risk of death.  During the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918, the majority of people that died, did not die of the Spanish Flu, they died from bacterial pnuemonia from wide spread adoption of wearing masks!  It was the first time wearing masks was adopted.  Pathogens thrive on moist, warm areas so the inside of the mask is the perfect breeding ground.  There was a whole paper written about it years ago...guess who co-authored it?  Anthony Fauci!


Just a friendly reminder: twitter is not a reliable source of information.
Bacterial Pneumonia (a secondary opportunistic infection that can result from your immune system being weakened by the flu...which by the way means it is a flu death) is/was not caused by mask wearing and I imagine there are no credible sources that are claiming this. Dr. Fauci's paper did mention bacterial pneumonia, but not masks as being a causal factor...and as mentioned above, just because bacterial pneumonia was secondary to the flu, it doesn't mean that the flu was not a factor in the death.


----------



## Susie

szaza said:


> A while back there was an article in the news about an opportunistic mold infection playing a role in covid-19 morbidity. Don't have much more info on it, but had to think about it when reading this.



We are full of yeasts also. I am not surprised. After working in ICU for a couple of years, I got extremely familiar with all of the beasties that can make us ill.


----------



## lenarenee

Susie said:


> We are full of yeasts also. I am not surprised. After working in ICU for a couple of years, I got extremely familiar with all of the beasties that can make us ill.


They might be referring to the poor covid patients in India who survived , only to be infested with fungal infections. Their immune systems were so taxed, they couldn’t fend it off. Probably simple infections from a daily scratch  or cold made people sick too.


----------



## Susie

lenarenee said:


> They might be referring to the poor covid patients in India who survived , only to be infested with fungal infections. Their immune systems were so taxed, they couldn’t fend it off. Probably simple infections from a daily scratch  or cold made people sick too.



I am unsurprised. We saw lots of post-antibiotic fungal infections in the hospital. Because your body functions best when the bacteria and yeast compete with each other for nutrients and space. You kill off the bacteria, and you get over-growth of yeast. You kill off too many yeasts, you get an over-growth of bacteria. This is why women get a yeast infection after being on certain antibiotics. Add that to an already overworked immune system, and you get into trouble.


----------



## szaza

lenarenee said:


> They might be referring to the poor covid patients in India who survived , only to be infested with fungal infections. Their immune systems were so taxed, they couldn’t fend it off. Probably simple infections from a daily scratch  or cold made people sick too.


It was about patients in Belgium, but the mechanism is probably the same as in India There was an interview with a man who only survived because they thought to check for a very common type of mold that otherwise wouldn't have made him sick.


----------



## TheGecko

So the local news has been making a huge deal about how the hospitals being "overrun" with "unvaccinated" Covid patients and how many [needful] surgeries are being delayed because there isn't enough room.

Then it comes out that our hospitals don't even have enough beds to begin with; the national average is 4 beds per 1000 and we only have 1 bed per 1000. So there is already a problem with scheduling these surgeries. As of the 24th of August, there were approximately 1000 Covid patients with a quarter of them in ICU...in the entire state of 4.7 million people.

They've also gone from reporting the total number/percentage of eligible folks who are vaccinated, to reporting the total number/percentage of total population who are vaccinated. We were at 67% when it was over 18 and are at 64% now that we are including everyone.

The State has currently mandated vaccinations for all healthcare workers and teachers...or be fired. The City of Portland just mandated vaccinations for all city employees...or be fired. I have no doubt that more cities (and companies) will be doing the same and/or that the State will be requiring other workers to be vaccinated.

Now you can still get a medical or religious exemption, but the standards are going to incredibly tough.  It won't be enough to get a statement from your doctor saying that you can't have the vaccine...no, you will need to reveal whatever medical condition that it is that you have and then it will be up to the employer (State, City, company) to determine if it is valid.  As for religion...I know that in the State of Washington, you have to prove that you have never been vaccinated or received medication...I'm sure Oregon will follow.


----------



## AliOop

At least two university professors have sued and won the right not to vaccinate, based on their existing immunity. This is consistent with a new study from Israel that shows that those with natural immunity due to having contracted and recovered from COVID have significantly better immunity than those who have been vaccinated. 

The issue is, the average person cannot locate an immunity testing center, let alone pay for the cost, which is not covered by insurance. 

This just fries me. Yes, let's develop vaccines that work, by all means.... but not to the exclusion of aggressively pursuing effective early treatment options that can bring down hospitalization rates, as well as post-recovery research regarding natural immunity. We need the whole package, not just one piece of it.


----------



## Relle

lenarenee said:


> Thank you so much for your input!!  I thought all shots were into muscle!  Well, good to know that my....uh...extra adipose tissue provided insurance that the needle reached the right place!


I had my 2nd shot yesterday and it was in the muscle.


----------



## Susie

Relle said:


> I had my 2nd shot yesterday and it was in the muscle.



Wow, different countries! News to me. I thought everyone gave them the same way. I definitely got mine in the SQ (subcutaneous), I asked and checked the needle.


Here is a link that shows the varying locations in the arm: https://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2020.pdf



AliOop said:


> At least two university professors have sued and won the right not to vaccinate, based on their existing immunity. This is consistent with a new study from Israel that shows that those with natural immunity due to having contracted and recovered from COVID have significantly better immunity than those who have been vaccinated.
> 
> The issue is, the average person cannot locate an immunity testing center, let alone pay for the cost, which is not covered by insurance.
> 
> This just fries me. Yes, let's develop vaccines that work, by all means.... but not to the exclusion of aggressively pursuing effective *early treatment options* that can bring down hospitalization rates, as well as post-recovery research regarding natural immunity. We need the whole package, not just one piece of it.



1.  "_This is consistent with a new study from Israel that shows that those with natural immunity due to having contracted and recovered from COVID have significantly better immunity than those who have been vaccinated._" One study does not indicate much. Most countries are studying this very question. I will wait until we have more studies before deciding one way or the other. Currently in the US, the best practice is considered for those who have had Co-vid to wait 90 days before taking the vaccines. I think the thought process is that the vaccines provide a booster for the immunity people already developed, much like we are expecting boosters for those of us who have already had vaccines. The issue is that the body starts "forgetting" that germ within a few months if it is not backed up by boosters. Several children's vaccines have boosters for the same reason. But once you expose the body to that 2-3 times, it really starts to remember them much better.  

2.  Define "early treatment options".


----------



## Zing

Coronavirus hit close to home this week.  We went to a wedding last Sunday which had originally been planned for 2020.  It was at a brewery and took place outdoors.  My wife and I and several others were masked the entire time.  One side of the brewery had large garage doors that were open.  It was very breezy.  

Wednesday we found out that several guests were positive and at least one was symptomatic.  My wife and I were not worried but we still scrambled to find a rapid test before we had to report to work.  Thankfully we are negative.  One of my cousins, vaccinated, is positive which hopefully means no symptoms or mild symptoms.  I've gone back to curbside pickup, and added a face shield in addition to my mask.  I'm not sure about hugging my elderly dad this weekend, maybe a quick one.


----------



## TheGecko

Zing said:


> Coronavirus hit close to home this week.  We went to a wedding last Sunday which had originally been planned for 2020.  It was at a brewery and took place outdoors.  My wife and I and several others were masked the entire time.  One side of the brewery had large garage doors that were open.  It was very breezy.



We just had our State Fair. Despite the mask mandate, required for all indoor public buildings and large outdoor gatherings, at least 2/3s, based on photographs, weren't wearing masks. One lady that was interviewed said she wasn't wearing a mask because she was fully vaccinated and wasn't that the purpose for insisting folks get vaccinated? She's not wrong...that was the original sales pitch...once you were vaccinated, you didn't have to wear a mask anymore, you could gather with friends and family in all sorts of numbers.

The Delta variant has been around for several months now...you'd think they'd have a vaccine for it by now given the speed in which the first vaccine was developed.  Yes, I'm being a bit factious, but you can't have you cake and eat it too..


----------



## Marsi

I got mine in the muscle too

a friend works in the field and told me ahead about the blood vessel issue
so i asked them to aspirate the needle
the first trainee nurse didnt know what it meant and the senior doctor said aspiration is not standard practice and they dont teach it anymore

i was told that the needle length was designed to reach the muscle
and the location was chosen to avoid larger blood vessels


----------



## Kari Howie

Susie said:


> Wow, different countries! News to me. I thought everyone gave them the same way. I definitely got mine in the SQ (subcutaneous), I asked and checked the needle.
> 
> 
> Here is a link that shows the varying locations in the arm: https://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2020.pdf


Your link shows the various locations for IM (Intramuscular) injections, which is the correct route of administration. I have attached excerpts from the Epocrates drug formulary also stating the intramuscular route of administration. health professionals already know to aspirate for blood and redirect the needle if a there’s + blood aspirate for any injection they give.



Marsi said:


> I got mine in the muscle too
> 
> a friend works in the field and told me ahead about the blood vessel issue
> so i asked them to aspirate the needle
> the first trainee nurse didnt know what it meant and the senior doctor said aspiration is not standard practice and they dont teach it anymore
> 
> i was told that the needle length was designed to reach the muscle
> and the location was chosen to avoid larger blood vessels


----------



## Marsi

Kari you have given two images that are the same
neither has the information you mentioned



Kari Howie said:


> Your link shows the various locations for IM (Intramuscular) injections, which is the correct route of administration. I have attached excerpts from the Epocrates drug formulary also stating the intramuscular route of administration. health professionals already know to aspirate for blood and redirect the needle if a there’s + blood aspirate for any injection they give.


----------



## Kari Howie

Doctors rarely give injections instead leaving it to the nurses.


Marsi said:


> Kari you have given two images that are the same
> neither has the information you mentioned


Dang!

They both say “IM” which means Intramuscular as opposed to “SQ” which means Subcutaneous (fat).

Maybe I misunderstood. Are you looking for information on injection technique, i.e., to aspirate or not aspirate?


----------



## paradisi

Wrt injections and fear of blood clots: I, like many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Americans with pernicious anemia, receive monthly injections of cyanocobalamin (B-12). I'm unaware of any of us ever getting anything more than the occasional goose egg.

And that's pretty good, considering that it's very very common for us to self administer. 

That's right, thousands of non medical personnel giving ourselves monthly injections with no ill effects from the action of injecting medicine with a needle.

Imagine then how much *less* risk to people receiving vaccine injections from trained medical professionals.


----------



## Relle

Susie said:


> Wow, different countries! News to me. I thought everyone gave them the same way. I definitely got mine in the SQ (subcutaneous), I asked and checked the needle.
> Here is a link that shows the varying locations in the arm: https://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2020.pdf


I asked because of your post and definitely no. I had trouble with the first one with a lump the size of a tennis ball in circumference, with a smaller lump at the injection site, it was there for 2 months so the doctor used a 38mm needle instead of a 25mm needle and went in on an angle instead of putting it in like a dart. She also let the area swabbed, dry, before injecting.  She could also see where the other injection had gone in, which was after 12 wks. Out of the 4-500 covid shots she had given at the time of my first shot, I was the only one that happened to - just my luck. So today, 1 1/2 days later, no lump and no problems.


Kari Howie said:


> Doctors rarely give injections instead leaving it to the nurses.
> Dang!


Not here, no nurses in my GP's practice, only doctors. My GP has given me all necessary injections.


----------



## rdc1978

Zing said:


> Coronavirus hit close to home this week.  We went to a wedding last Sunday which had originally been planned for 2020.  It was at a brewery and took place outdoors.  My wife and I and several others were masked the entire time.  One side of the brewery had large garage doors that were open.  It was very breezy.
> 
> Wednesday we found out that several guests were positive and at least one was symptomatic.  My wife and I were not worried but we still scrambled to find a rapid test before we had to report to work.  Thankfully we are negative.  One of my cousins, vaccinated, is positive which hopefully means no symptoms or mild symptoms.  I've gone back to curbside pickup, and added a face shield in addition to my mask.  I'm not sure about hugging my elderly dad this weekend, maybe a quick one.



Good on you for wearing a mask.  I remember a few "super spreader" events that were outside prior to the vaccine. 

At this point it seems to be about taking calculated risks and mitigating as much risk as you can. 

I went to see HAMILTON yesterday (amazing!).  It was a risk to go to any show indoors.  But, there was active risk mitigation. 

You had to show proof of vaccination and wear a mask throughout the entire show.  And no bandanas or gators, it had to be an actual mask. 

There was still a risk, but I've been waiting to see this show for over a year and I felt better with the rules and their enforcement.


----------



## szaza

I'm frustrated. I was at a party yesterday with a lot of unvaxxed people, almost nobody was wearing a mask except me and another woman who wasn't vaccinated, very scared, but really wanted to be there for the person throwing the party. I was encouraged to take off my mask "for my own health". One person told me we're not 100% sure that the coronavirus causes covid-19, because there haven't been any clinical trials where unknowing humans were injected with the virus to see if they got sick. Could you imagine living in a place where research like that could be done

A recent study in Belgium found that unvaccinated individuals had more 'risk contacts' than vaccinated individuals and I think I saw how that could be. It's pretty infuriating, considering the strain the hospitals have been under for the past year and a half.

Out of sheer annoyance I feel compelled to post screen shots comparing the adult vaccination rate and 14-day cumulative incidence in Belgium, where it's pretty obvious that VACCINES WORK. Most places that are lighter on the vaccination map are darker on the incidence map.

Here's the vaccination rate.....................And cumulative incidence next to it.



Source: Sciensano




__





						Belgium COVID-19 Dashboard - Sciensano
					





					datastudio.google.com
				







__





						Belgium COVID-19 Dashboard - Sciensano
					





					datastudio.google.com
				




Sorry for the rant...


----------



## szaza

AliOop said:


> Yes, let's develop vaccines that work, by all means.... but not to the exclusion of aggressively pursuing effective early treatment options that can bring down hospitalization rates, as well as post-recovery research regarding natural immunity. We need the whole package, not just one piece of it.


I know we don't agree on many things in this thread, but I wholeheartedly agree with this. Anything that can be done to minimize negative effects of covid-19 should be explored and exploited once proven effective. I'd also be very interested in a link or reference to the Israeli study you mentioned. I read a study that seemed to suggest the complete opposite, so it'd be interesting to compare


----------



## Orebma

AliOop said:


> At least two university professors have sued and won the right not to vaccinate, based on their existing immunity. This is consistent with a new study from Israel that shows that those with natural immunity due to having contracted and recovered from COVID have significantly better immunity than those who have been vaccinated.
> 
> The issue is, the average person cannot locate an immunity testing center, let alone pay for the cost, which is not covered by insurance.
> 
> This just fries me. Yes, let's develop vaccines that work, by all means.... but not to the exclusion of aggressively pursuing effective early treatment options that can bring down hospitalization rates, as well as post-recovery research regarding natural immunity. We need the whole package, not just one piece of it.


Totaly agree - natural immunity is better than vacc immunity. I'm not pro or anti vacc - I'm pro-choice. It's interesting that some indigenous peoples would intentionally go to the home of a person - with a disease with their children - in order to expose them to it. Obviously many got the sickness and once recovered had natural immunity to it. That worked fine until the Spanish Flu, which decimated whole communities of native people. Certainly a topsy turvy world we're living in at the moment


----------



## AliOop

Sorry, haven't been able to keep up as much lately with this thread but did find the link to the Israeli study.


----------



## Susie

It makes sense that your body would create more antibodies when you have the germs sitting in your system for more than a week rather than one injection. And they still recommend a follow up vaccine to those that had the actual illness.


----------



## paradisi

Actually, no, natural immunity from infection with Covid is not as strong as that from vaccination. Especially Delta.:

"A Note to Those who are Confused, Afraid or just Uncertain about Whether to Get the COVID Vaccine – Dr. Pate’s blog

While having COVID does provide some degree of immune protection against re-infection for most, but certainly not all, persons, there is growing evidence that the degree of immune protection is inferior to that provided by vaccines. As we see more and more variants of concern, we have less and less confidence that natural infection will provide people the same degree of immune protection that the vaccine will. Therefore, we recommend that everyone who has previously had COVID get vaccinated once they recover from their illness."









						A Note to Those who are Confused, Afraid or just Uncertain about Whether to Get the COVID Vaccine
					

Thank you for reading this. First of all, I want you to know that I understand your confusion, your fear and your reservations about the vaccines. This is complicated stuff and unfortunately, there…




					drpatesblog.com


----------



## AliOop

paradisi said:


> Actually, no, natural immunity from infection with Covid is not as strong as that from vaccination. Especially Delta.:
> 
> "A Note to Those who are Confused, Afraid or just Uncertain about Whether to Get the COVID Vaccine – Dr. Pate’s blog
> 
> While having COVID does provide some degree of immune protection against re-infection for most, but certainly not all, persons, there is growing evidence that the degree of immune protection is inferior to that provided by vaccines. As we see more and more variants of concern, we have less and less confidence that natural infection will provide people the same degree of immune protection that the vaccine will. Therefore, we recommend that everyone who has previously had COVID get vaccinated once they recover from their illness."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Note to Those who are Confused, Afraid or just Uncertain about Whether to Get the COVID Vaccine
> 
> 
> Thank you for reading this. First of all, I want you to know that I understand your confusion, your fear and your reservations about the vaccines. This is complicated stuff and unfortunately, there…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drpatesblog.com


Sorry, but a blog post citing no sources and written by a single doctor does not hold as much weight as a published (although not yet peer-reviewed) medical study based on medical data from almost 70,000 patients (the Israeli study linked in my prior post).

The study data does indeed show that previously infected individuals have stronger immunity. It also shows that they can boost their immunity further with a single vaccine shot, rather than two of them.


----------



## Susie

Surgical masks work very well in preventing spread of COVID-19, biggest ever study finds


----------



## LynetteO

This is most definitely a gripe but a COVID-19 gripe. I have two close friends come down with COVID-19. Both unvaccinated by choice. The healthier female is on the SLOW mend but my other friend that had underlying health issues is in the hospital & may be sent to ICU if she doesn’t show improvement or being stable. I had assumed she was vaccinated. I am a healthy female but carry a chromosome for a genetic lung disease (Alpha1 anti trypsin lung deficiency) so I chose to vaccinate ASAP. All last year I had Covid-19 all around in community but none of my close friends or family had gotten C-19. Now in less than a week TWO close friends.


----------



## DKing

LynetteO said:


> This is most definitely a gripe but a COVID-19 gripe. I have two close friends come down with COVID-19. Both unvaccinated by choice. The healthier female is on the SLOW mend but my other friend that had underlying health issues is in the hospital & may be sent to ICU if she doesn’t show improvement or being stable. I had assumed she was vaccinated. I am a healthy female but carry a chromosome for a genetic lung disease (Alpha1 anti trypsin lung deficiency) so I chose to vaccinate ASAP. All last year I had Covid-19 all around in community but none of my close friends or family had gotten C-19. Now in less than a week TWO close friends.


My husband and both our kids also carry the Alpha1 anti trypsin deficiency gene as well, so that has been a large concern for us as well.  My kids are both fully vaccinated but they work in care homes around covid positive people, so I still worry about break through cases for them.  I hope that they stay safe and healthy.  I do not know how I would handle losing a loved one to this virus.  It would be devastating!


----------



## TheGecko

I received my first Covid vaccine today…in the muscle for those discussing that.  Sucker HURT!  I usually don’t feel needles, but I felt this one, and I felt the liquid going in.  They kept me around a little longer that normal when I mentioned that my lips felt a little tingly and numb, but it went away after about a half hour and they sent me on my way.

A couple of hours later my upper arm…shoulder to elbow was really sore…couldn’t left my arm able my chest without shooting pain.  I also had a massive headache, so I decided to lay down around 2pm for short nap…hubby woke me around 8:30.  Sat up and OMG…please somebody, cut off my arm!!!  I couldn’t help it, there were tears in my eyes.  Took some more Ibuprofen.  Hubby offered me something ‘stronger’ and I was tempted, but declined.  Noticed that my hand was swollen and tried to take off my rings and couldn’t.

It’s midnight…approximate 10 hours since my shot. Still have a headache. Shoulder has settled down to a deep ache instead of a sharp pain…unless I try to raise my arm and then I want my mommy. I managed to get the rings off my pinkie and thumb, but the other three are firmly stuck.

When the nurse handed me my proof of vaccine aka Covid Card, I was advised to carry it with me at all times.  I said no…it’s 2021, not 1941.


----------



## Susie

I am so sorry you had such a bad reaction to the vaccine! I carry my card with me for only one reason, if you catch co-vid, or have a bad reaction to the second dose, the doctors will need to know which manufacturer and lot # you have. That's it. I have never been asked for mine, nor have I volunteered that info to anyone. If you would feel better just jotting that info down on a different piece of paper to stick in your wallet or record in your phone, go for it. But medically, you need to have that info, just in case. And you need to take that card with you to the second dose. 

I should probably take a picture with my phone and put that card with all the other medical info at this stage of the game. Might be a better idea, and it would get one more thing out of my wallet.


----------



## earlene

TheGecko said:


> I received my first Covid vaccine today…in the muscle for those discussing that.  Sucker HURT!  I usually don’t feel needles, but I felt this one, and I felt the liquid going in.  They kept me around a little longer that normal when I mentioned that my lips felt a little tingly and numb, but it went away after about a half hour and they sent me on my way.
> 
> A couple of hours later my upper arm…shoulder to elbow was really sore…couldn’t left my arm able my chest without shooting pain.  I also had a massive headache, so I decided to lay down around 2pm for short nap…hubby woke me around 8:30.  Sat up and OMG…please somebody, cut off my arm!!!  I couldn’t help it, there were tears in my eyes.  Took some more Ibuprofen.  Hubby offered me something ‘stronger’ and I was tempted, but declined.  Noticed that my hand was swollen and tried to take off my rings and couldn’t.
> 
> It’s midnight…approximate 10 hours since my shot. Still have a headache. Shoulder has settled down to a deep ache instead of a sharp pain…unless I try to raise my arm and then I want my mommy. I managed to get the rings off my pinkie and thumb, but the other three are firmly stuck.
> 
> When the nurse handed me my proof of vaccine aka Covid Card, I was advised to carry it with me at all times.  I said no…it’s 2021, not 1941.


@TheGecko I recommend you use the vSafe app to report your reactions.  The purpose is to follow up on adverse reactions to vaccines.  The app will prompt you via texts (if you opt in for texts) to provide updates on your reactions (or lack thereof) periodically.  I just got a prompt after several months (early on it was frequent, then pared down over time).

Another app that is collecting data from vaccine recipients is C-19 by ZOE.  This app collects data daily from those who opt-in to participate.  At the outset, it has some background questions, but after the initional period, there are only 3 questions (verifying the dates & types of Covid Tests as well as dates & types of vaccine, plus how you are feeling.)  Then periodically, it will include a few questions (only once every few months if I remember correctly).  

Just a suggestion to participate in ongoing data collection about the vaccines.  The first is for the CDC specifically. The second study was created by doctors and scientists at Massachusetts General Hospital, the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, King's College London and Stanford University School of Medicine, working with ZOE – a health science company. One of the collaborators is the Harvard Nurses Study, which I have been a member for decades in an ongoing study of women's health, which is why I highly recommend this one.


----------



## szaza

@earlene so cool that you're a participant in the nurses' health study!!


----------



## TheGecko

Susie said:


> I carry my card with me for only one reason, if you catch co-vid, or have a bad reaction to the second dose, the doctors will need to know which manufacturer and lot # you have. That's it.



And they would be able to find that information by looking on My Chart...doesn't matter what health system you use these days.  In addition to get a Covid shot yesterday, it was my first appointment with my new insurance/health provider and during the intake process, they already had a list of my allergies and prescriptions from the last seven years.



> I have never been asked for mine, nor have I volunteered that info to anyone. If you would feel better just jotting that info down on a different piece of paper to stick in your wallet or record in your phone, go for it. But medically, you need to have that info, just in case. And you need to take that card with you to the second dose.



Do you carry a list of all your vaccines with you?


----------



## rdc1978

Susie said:


> I am so sorry you had such a bad reaction to the vaccine! I carry my card with me for only one reason, if you catch co-vid, or have a bad reaction to the second dose, the doctors will need to know which manufacturer and lot # you have. That's it. I have never been asked for mine, nor have I volunteered that info to anyone. If you would feel better just jotting that info down on a different piece of paper to stick in your wallet or record in your phone, go for it. But medically, you need to have that info, just in case. And you need to take that card with you to the second dose.
> 
> I should probably take a picture with my phone and put that card with all the other medical info at this stage of the game. Might be a better idea, and it would get one more thing out of my wallet.



We were asked for proof of vaccination when we went see Hamilton.  

But they did mention that a picture would work just fine so that may be the way.  I just didn't want to risk it, I waited like a year to see hamilton!


----------



## Susie

I probably would have done the same thing.


----------



## earlene

rdc1978 said:


> We were asked for proof of vaccination when we went see Hamilton.
> 
> But they did mention that a picture would work just fine so that may be the way.  I just didn't want to risk it, I waited like a year to see hamilton!


I want to see Hamilton again!  My granddaughter can sing all the lyrics as sung by Lin-Manual Miranda word for word at that rapid pace.  I don't know how she does it!  My ears cannot even hear that fast, or should I say, my brain cannot keep up with the pace at which my ears are hearing.

We have our reservations to get our Boosters tomorrow at 3pm (Hubby & I).  I am looking forward to that!  I should make an appointment for my son to get his booster, as I think he is due as well.  I'll check with him tomorrow to find out if he is up for it yet.

We spent the night in Chicago last night for our Anniversary, and it keeps surprising me to see maskless people on the EL.  At least on Amtrak on the way up here, and the stations, I did not see any maskless people.  Now if only the gregariously overly loud fella on the train when I came up yesterday doesn't ride back Westwardly today, I'll be happy. I swear that guy had the loudest conversational voice I've ever heard and he never shut-up from the time he got on the train until he disembarked at Union Station.


----------



## TheGecko

Just found out this morning that a classmate passed from Covid.  Yes, she was vaccinated.  But it didn't save her.


----------



## soapman5

TheGecko said:


> Just found out this morning that a classmate passed from Covid.  Yes, she was vaccinated.  But it didn't save her.



Whaat? How old and which type of vaccine did she get, how many shots?


----------



## lenarenee

Our 9th grader, in a class of 100, has 3 friends still struggling with long covid. (from last winter/spring, not from the Delta variant). One of them was able to return to school, but her breathing and fatigue tax her so much she leaves early, however the doctors think it will be permanent and in a few years may not show any signs. The other two aren't so lucky and have heart and lung damage and can't do any type of school at this time. She can talk and text with them, but can't visit in person..


----------



## Catscankim

I had a couple of friends over on Friday night. She was crying all night, drunk...the worst kind of crying. I can't talk to anybody drunk and crying like that, no matter how valid their reason is for crying. Anyway, her god-niece was being taken off the ventilator on Saturday. She wasn't vaccinated, and completely healthy: young, worked out regularly, no smoking/drinking. It's very sad.

I asked them if they were vaccinated and they both resounded no and are very passionate about the "government not telling me what to do with my body". I understand it when people are scared or misinformed about its safety, but really? Your niece is dying tomorrow and you are still saying no to the vaccine because you think it is a government conspiracy. Seeing first hand what covid can do to someone who is completely healthy...gone like that.

Sadly there are breakthrough cases, but that is with every vaccine...the flu comes to mind.

If you do not want to listen to the government, listen to the healthcare workers who see it every day. Nearly every covid case that I have seen (and I get ALL of them in CT) did not get the vaccine. They put it right up front in their triage notes: "NOT vaccinated". 

Our 400-bed hospital is full. People are in the waiting room now for 6 or more hours because we are holding ICU patients down in the ER because all of the ICU units are now converted to covid floors. They resusitated a trauma in the hallway the other day because they were holding ICU patients, and did a bunch of the invasive procedures in my CT room because they couldn't do it in the hall. That was an hour and a half that I could not take any other patients because my room became an OR. Our trauma doc called one of the desk-jockies and asked her to please put us on divert and she said no. 

No elective procedures. Not directly BECAUSE of covid like in the beginning...it's because the post op is holding as well and we have nowhere to put people who come out of surgery for something they can wait for.

We don't need stats to know what is truth...we LIVE it. I saw a covid pt walking down the hall to the bathroom. I said something to the charge nurse and he said "It doesn't matter, every single patient on that side is covid" (rooms 11-22 plus all the hallway beds...each room has a corresponding hallway bed), plus our old trauma room holds two covid patients. Our entire hospital is all private rooms. Right now they are doubling up in the covid floor rooms because there is just no where else to put people. Plus all of the richer "ritzy" hospitals in the area transferring their covid patients "for a higher level of care"...aka, we don't want them to contaminate our rich donors.

I was watching the news the other day and they had a press conference. One reporter asked this woman "So if I need to go to the hospital, are you telling me that I will be sitting in the hallway?" This lady (I don't know who she was), says "of course not! We are prepared and everybody is being treated safely" ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Its like a third-world country in there some days. I had a stroke alert on thursday morning at exactly 7am. I walked in on Friday...he is still there holding in the ER. I left there today (Sunday) at 3pm...he is still there.

Its not a government conspiracy. Listen to us, not the media, not social media. It is really bad. I almost didn't get my shot in the beginning either. Today was my first of 9 shifts. I just worked 6, had off one day and now looking forward to 8 more. We are tired. It is real. 

And then also dealing with really pissed off patients and their families that have been sitting in the waiting room for 6 hours.

The masking up didn't work. The isolations and quarantines didn't work...The vaccine is our only hope, and we see the benefit of it. *Please do it.* 

I gave John and Julie this speech and now they are going to get their vaxx. Hopefully I also hit some of you guys that are afraid of getting it.

ON THE FLIP SIDE....

I had a patient the other day and as I was walking into her room the nurse was like "get ready". I go in with a wheelchair and the little old lady who got hit in the head with a golf ball, jumps up and demands (pointing her finger in my face) to know if I have been vaccinated. I turned around to her nurse "I don't think her getting hit in the head was accidental" LOL. I told her that was my own personal business. She starts yelling at me that I am unvaccinated and she's not going with me. Finally I'm like yes I got my shot, but that's not an appropriate question. Then our joke all day was "did you get your HPV vaccine? Is your vagina healthy?" LOL. This is where I draw the line "It's my body, it's nunya".


----------



## cmzaha

I was up in Winnemucca this last week where they are saying the Delta stain is going around. My SIL's sister's family had covid within last 6 or 7 months, all 14 of them. She has 12 kids and the entire family was down, fortunately, all survived. They were all vaccinated with the Pfizer having both vaccinations and the entire family is down with covid again. Her husband is extremely sick with double pneumonia. This is very frightening since she has said they are twice as sick as they were the first time. So word of advice, do get too careless thinking the vaccine works against all strains of the hateful virus, no matter what anyone is telling us.


----------



## rdc1978

earlene said:


> I want to see Hamilton again!  My granddaughter can sing all the lyrics as sung by Lin-Manual Miranda word for word at that rapid pace.  I don't know how she does it!  My ears cannot even hear that fast, or should I say, my brain cannot keep up with the pace at which my ears are hearing.
> 
> We have our reservations to get our Boosters tomorrow at 3pm (Hubby & I).  I am looking forward to that!  I should make an appointment for my son to get his booster, as I think he is due as well.  I'll check with him tomorrow to find out if he is up for it yet.
> 
> We spent the night in Chicago last night for our Anniversary, and it keeps surprising me to see maskless people on the EL.  At least on Amtrak on the way up here, and the stations, I did not see any maskless people.  Now if only the gregariously overly loud fella on the train when I came up yesterday doesn't ride back Westwardly today, I'll be happy. I swear that guy had the loudest conversational voice I've ever heard and he never shut-up from the time he got on the train until he disembarked at Union Station.



I was surprised at how much I enjoyed the show.  

Your granddaughter sounds cute.  The only lyric I can remember (and often sing to myself) is any iteration of "I'm gonna take my shot!"  

Which I find an interesting lyric both for the time frame of the show and our current time when a different kind of "shot" is in the news.


----------



## rdc1978

@Catscankim - I'm sorry to hear about your job. 

Sounds extremely stressful.  The little old lady reminds me of those warnings for people to avoid dangerous activities so as not to end up on the hospital.  She was probably scared to death.  A hospital ER must be a scary place right now.  

And you can bet whoever hit her with that golf ball won't be getting a Christmas fruitcake this year!


----------



## rdc1978

lenarenee said:


> Our 9th grader, in a class of 100, has 3 friends still struggling with long covid. (from last winter/spring, not from the Delta variant). One of them was able to return to school, but her breathing and fatigue tax her so much she leaves early, however the doctors think it will be permanent and in a few years may not show any signs. The other two aren't so lucky and have heart and lung damage and can't do any type of school at this time. She can talk and text with them, but can't visit in person..



I had a mild pneumonia and never fully recovered.  
I believe "long covid" has been (or shortly will be) considered a disabling condition.  This should help open the door to disability claims and perhaps a set of standards to streamline evaluation of long covid.


----------



## MonaLisaLu

rdc1978 said:


> I had a mild pneumonia and never fully recovered.
> I believe "long covid" has been (or shortly will be) considered a disabling condition.  This should help open the door to disability claims and perhaps a set of standards to streamline evaluation of long covid.


“Long-Haul Covid, can be treated. Here is a protocol, for just that. It may be helpful:









						COVID-19 Protocols - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
					

Read about our prevention and treatment protocols for COVID-19.




					covid19criticalcare.com


----------



## AliOop

For those with COVID or long COVID, this website is very interesting.


----------



## paradisi

This is what failed leadership causes 









						‘Their Crisis’ Is ‘Our Problem’: Washington Grapples With Idaho Covid Cases
					

Hospitals in Washington State, already strained, are taking on an influx of Covid patients from Idaho, where the governor has refused to require masks or vaccinations.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## rdc1978

paradisi said:


> This is what failed leadership causes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Their Crisis’ Is ‘Our Problem’: Washington Grapples With Idaho Covid Cases
> 
> 
> Hospitals in Washington State, already strained, are taking on an influx of Covid patients from Idaho, where the governor has refused to require masks or vaccinations.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com



As an addendum, apparently Washington hospitals aren't obligated to take out of state patients.  Its at the discretion of each hospital.  









						What does Idaho's 'Crisis Standards of Care' mean for Washington hospitals?
					

As Washington hospitals approach capacity, patients from Idaho could be transferred in, but Washington is under no obligation to take them, according to the WSHA.




					www.king5.com


----------



## paradisi

rdc1978 said:


> As an addendum, apparently Washington hospitals aren't obligated to take out of state patients.  Its at the discretion of each hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does Idaho's 'Crisis Standards of Care' mean for Washington hospitals?
> 
> 
> As Washington hospitals approach capacity, patients from Idaho could be transferred in, but Washington is under no obligation to take them, according to the WSHA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.king5.com



Right.  The Spokane-Coeur d'Alene area is almost one metro though, and Spokane is the regional mega hospital that Kootenai county and north Idaho sends to for things they can't do.  Big trauma, cardiac, burns etc. So Spokane feels a responsibility to the cross border hospitals that are not as well equipped.

Idaho being an irresponsible punk though is hurting Washington over and above that.


----------



## AliOop

The failed leadership is at a much higher level than local and state governments.

For some reason, the US federal government and the non-governmental entities such as the CDC and WHO will not accept the overwhelming data from other countries that Ivermectin is a very effective treatment for every stage of COVID19, including early stage, advanced stage, and long-haulers. The same folks that cry "racist!" at every turn have condescendingly said that the data showing how it worked in these "poor" countries cannot be expected to work the same in the US. 

They ignore the similarly strong data that HCQ + zinc is effective for early stage treatment.

They ignore the data from the very robust Israeli study showing that natural immunity is more effective than any vaccine alone.

What kind of government leaders would rather get into a big political fight to push vaccines as the only solution, rather than listening to front-line doctors and "poor" countries (India, Paraguay, Peru) that have had to find non-vaccine solutions?

What kind of government leaders would rather see hospitals get overwhelmed, and people continue to die, rather than aggressively pursuing early testing, early treatment, and antibody testing, along with vaccine programs?

Please don't say "we need randomized controlled double-blind studies." Of course we do! But in the meantime, we should be treating folks with whatever shows itself to be effective right now. To do otherwise is highly unethical.


----------



## paradisi

AliOop said:


> The failed leadership is at a much higher level than local and state governments.
> 
> For some reason, the US federal government and the non-governmental entities such as the CDC and WHO will not accept the overwhelming data from other countries that Ivermectin is a very effective treatment for every stage of COVID19, including early stage, advanced stage, and long-haulers. The same folks that cry "racist!" at every turn have condescendingly said that the data showing how it worked in these "poor" countries cannot be expected to work the same in the US.
> 
> They ignore the similarly strong data that HCQ + zinc is effective for early stage treatment.
> 
> They ignore the data from the very robust Israeli study showing that natural immunity is more effective than any vaccine alone.
> 
> What kind of government leaders would rather get into a big political fight to push vaccines as the only solution, rather than listening to front-line doctors and "poor" countries (India, Paraguay, Peru) that have had to find non-vaccine solutions?
> 
> What kind of government leaders would rather see hospitals get overwhelmed, and people continue to die, rather than aggressively pursuing early testing, early treatment, and antibody testing, along with vaccine programs?
> 
> Please don't say "we need randomized controlled double-blind studies." Of course we do! But in the meantime, we should be treating folks with whatever shows itself to be effective right now. To do otherwise is highly unethical.


No. Just no. You're either badly misled or very irresponsible to spread that.

Ivermectin IS NOT effective as any kind of treatment for Covid.  It's just not.

There are no hidden or suppressed real studies that show otherwise.

I don't know why people fall for this when there's an easy, safe, free preventative. Vaccines work. 

Even our knucklehead governor admits that.


----------



## szaza

This kind of misinformation gets to me. 

There is NO good evidence for either ivermectin nor hcq in whatever form. If there was, it would be used. The articles that claim to see improvement with either drug are of poor quality (not because they are done in poor countries, but because there's no blinding, different protocols are mixed, etc..), the better quality studies don't show an effect of these drugs.

Even if immunity after infection would protect better than immunity after vaccination (which cannot be concluded based on only a single preprint article), that's still not a reason to go seek out infection and hope it gets cured with drugs (of which we have no proper evidence that they work, and we still don't know the full scope of long-term effects from covid). Do you really want to risk all the side effects of covid so you'll hopefully be immune afterwards (hopefully, because some studies also showed that some previously infected people had a worse infection the second time around)? Also, the Israeli article states that infection+vaccination offers the best protection, so even if you'd get infected you still need to get vaccinated.

There's a Dutch saying "preventing is better than curing" and that's what vaccines do. It's not like this is the first time we've had to avert a health crisis with vaccines. This is exactly what vaccines were meant to do, which is why they are the first choice now. Early testing, prevention of spreading and (science based) treatment are definitely needed to help, but vaccines are the basis.

As I mentioned before, here in Belgium there's a big difference in vaccination rate between the Dutch speaking part (90% of adults) and the capital (62% of adults). At the moment most restrictions are lifted nationwide (clubs are still closed, festivals require testing or proof of vaccination, masks here and there... that's about it). In the Dutch speaking part there are only a handful of covid patients in each hospital (0-15 patients overall in the hospitals that I've been in contact with lately), meanwhile the hospitals in the capital area are overflowing with unvaccinated covid patients. Soon patients will be transferred from the capital area to here, meaning ICU's will get full again and elective treatments will get pushed back again. That means that other people will need to wait to get the treatment they need, which could lead to long-term consequences for them. As soon as your "freedom" to not listen to the majority of medical professionals gets in the way of other people's access to health care, something is very wrong on an ethical level.


----------



## Johnez

The vaccine works, I get it. I don't question it, even in the face of Delta. However in a group of 57 there were 6 lawmakers out of Texas (the ones who left in protest) who got COVID. That's a significant breakthrough rate. We shouldn't be relying on a vaccine to keep ourselves safe. I mask up, I avoid public gatherings, and I take my health seriously. I'd appreciate if our leadership would advocate the same, and do the same (looking at you Governor Newsome). Thank goodness for the very astute people in Massachusetts who were a part of a breakthrough event and took the time to gather info and present their case to the CDC. The vaccines are not perfect, not a panacea, they are simply part of the solution. Anyone relying on the govt at this point for their health is placing themselves at risk as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Susie

Johnez said:


> The vaccine works, I get it. I don't question it, even in the face of Delta. However in a group of 57 there were 6 lawmakers out of Texas (the ones who left in protest) who got COVID. That's a significant breakthrough rate. We shouldn't be relying on a vaccine to keep ourselves safe. I mask up, I avoid public gatherings, and I take my health seriously. I'd appreciate if our leadership would advocate the same, and do the same (looking at you Governor Newsome). Thank goodness for the very astute people in Massachusetts who were a part of a breakthrough event and took the time to gather info and present their case to the CDC. The vaccines are not perfect, not a panacea, they are simply part of the solution. Anyone relying on the govt at this point for their health is placing themselves at risk as far as I'm concerned.



However, how many of them were hospitalized? None.

THAT is the point of the vaccine. It is not to prevent anyone from getting sick (with an RNA virus, it mutates so fast that people will get sick from variants too quickly to develop vaccines for every last variant), it is to keep people out of the hospitals and prevent deaths. With the vaccine, you have SOME immunity to that germ, and that helps keep you from overwhelming the hospital with one more person that is going to potentially die from this virus.

Also, how many of them used masks on their various modes of transport? None of them that got sick. There is photographic proof.


----------



## earlene

Well, I got dose # 3 yesterday.  They would not administer to Hubby, so he has to wait (he is not immunocompromised).  I was disappointed that we couldn't get our 3rd dose at the same time, but it is what it is and I guess we will just carry on as we have.

I agree, @Johnez, that if we depend on only one thing and ignore all other precautions, we are taking undue risks. The fact that NO VACCINE EVER has been 100% effective 100% of the time seems to evade far too many people.  To expect NO ONE who is vaccinated will ever get sick is unrealistic, just as to going to a gunfight bare-chested and without armor, carrying only a baton is unrealistic.

So in conjunction with my annual pneumonia vaccine, I also practice good hygiene, I don't smoke, I maintain a healthy lifestyle via diet & exercise, paying particular attention to exercise lung capacity, I avoid being around people who are coughing whenever possible.  Another precaution to prevent pneumonia is to not drink (alcohol or alcoholically), but since I already don't, I did not list that as one of my actions.

Anyway, Good for you for continuing to wear a mask and avoiding large gatherings.  It gets lonely sometimes, I know.  So far, I have been fortunate, in spite of being immunocompromised, but I do diligently mask up when I am around people other than my closest family, who I know take the same precautions as I, so I feel safe with them most of the time.  My husband works with the public and we talked about the precautions to take when the pandemic started.  He follows the same kinds of procedures I was taught in nursing school: change out of work clothes immediately upon returning home and thoroughly wash up before contact with anyone at home.  He often does his own laundry as well, although on occasion I will do it myself, but I also take precautions then as well.

I have not completely avoided large crowds, but I do maintain a good distance and wear a mask when in those crowds, even when outdoors.  Hubby & I are going to attend a Dead & Company concert next month with my son, DIL & granddaughter.  I do have to frequently remind granddaughter to lift the mask back up over her nose, but she always follows my instruction when I do, so I feel safe enough with her as well.  When CoVid broke out, she & I were sharing space in a tiny house in San Antonio and neither of us has yet to infect the other. 

Hubby & I celebrated our wedding anniversary this past week-end with a trip to Chicago, and one of the things that I saw that concerns me as much as mask wearing and vaccination rates was a woman at the hotel breakfast buffet who filled her water bottle from the drink dispenser, and pushed the lip of the bottle all the way up against the mechanism where the water comes out.  I said to her, 'When you fill your used water bottle with the bottle top touching the dispenser like that, you are contaminating the machine making it unsafe for any other person to use afterward.'  She replied something I didn't quite hear, and just went on filling her bottle to the top.  Even if she had pulled it away, I still would have done what I did next, because it was already contaminated by her lips having been on her water bottle before it was up against the dispenser tip.  I went to the Hotel employee overseeing the buffet and told him what had happened because now the tips would have to be de-contaminated.  He thanked me and immediately went to de-contaminate the machine.  And he returned to thank me again.  I am sure the hotel does not want to have to be known as a place where any disease spread by virtue of one self-centered thoughtless and uncaring person.

Good hygiene entails a lot more than wearing a mask and maintaining a safe distance from others.  I sometimes wonder why some people are so uncaring or oblivious to all the rest of what can cause the spread of disease and think only of immediate self-gratification at the expense of others.


----------



## Johnez

Susie said:


> Also, how many of them used masks on their various modes of transport? None of them that got sick. There is photographic proof.



Yes....that is one of the things that bothered me. People took the vaccine as "the answer," yay no more masks! Now people are still getting sick and the story is you can't expect the shot to prevent every case. I agree, but there should have been a more cautious messaging, now people here are going to have their freedoms yanked back once again. I think it was very irresponsible to use "no masks" as a carrot for taking the vaccine. We shouldn't have let our guard down until the virus was either eradicated or a surefire treatment option was developed. The vaccine requires a massive buy-in and we're just not at herd immunity yet.


----------



## rdc1978

Johnez said:


> Yes....that is one of the things that bothered me. People took the vaccine as "the answer," yay no more masks! Now people are still getting sick and the story is you can't expect the shot to prevent every case. I agree, but there should have been a more cautious messaging, now people here are going to have their freedoms yanked back once again. I think it was very irresponsible to use "no masks" as a carrot for taking the vaccine. We shouldn't have let our guard down until the virus was either eradicated or a surefire treatment option was developed. The vaccine requires a massive buy-in and we're just not at herd immunity yet.



I feel like the message was always that the vaccine offered less immunity against the delta variant.  

I think your point about stopping masking and social distancing too soon is fair. 

But I also think that people in particular areas and with a particular mindset already weren't masking and weren't social distancing.  So, if that's the case, what good was the guidance doing?

However I think it was naive to imagine that saying vaccinated people could do x,y and z in tbe hopes of encouraging more vaccinations was a mistake.  I dont think that really changed enough minds to warrant the risk.


----------



## lenarenee

rdc1978 said:


> I had a mild pneumonia and never fully recovered.
> I believe "long covid" has been (or shortly will be) considered a disabling condition.  This should help open the door to disability claims and perhaps a set of standards to streamline evaluation of long covid.



Even though I have a comorbidity, I am vaccinated and fear less for my life. It's the long covid that really worries me because there are SO many people I know who have had terrible health issues from it (before the Delta variant). 17 people -16 of whom are under 50, 8 of whom are under 32, 4. of whom are kids were under 16 at the time (not including my 13 year olds' friends), are facing things like hip replacements, kidney disease to the point of needing transplant, lung and heart disease - some to the point of needing transplants, and strokes and brain/memory/learning issues. What so many people don't understand is that this is far more a vascular disease because of the thousands of minuscule blood clots covid causes, and how it attacks the endothelial cells of (especially) blood vessels and arteries. 

And I can't forget the psychological toll; one of those kids is a 9 year old neighbor who caught covid last spring at school, which spread to his family, killing his father, his mother was ill for several months (she' much better now)  He blames himself for his father's death and tried to kill himself. 

And I certainly don't want to be hospitalized/ventilated; the number of ventilator narcosis experiences  from ventilation are terrifying. These people are traumatized, even brain damaged for life!  I am definitely considering having the booster shot, and have made diet and other health improvements.

The number of people I've known (or even heard of - friend of a friend sort of thing)  in my entire life who've been disabled or died from the flu = 1.


----------



## Susie

rdc1978 said:


> I feel like the message was always that the vaccine offered less immunity against the delta variant.
> 
> I think your point about stopping masking and social distancing too soon is fair.
> 
> But I also think that people in particular areas and with a particular mindset already weren't masking and weren't social distancing.  So, if that's the case, what good was the guidance doing?
> 
> However I think it was naive to imagine that saying vaccinated people could do x,y and z in tbe hopes of encouraging more vaccinations was a mistake.  I dont think that really changed enough minds to warrant the risk.



I live in Texas, and let's just say my opinion about masks and social distancing are not in line with our esteemed governor. And you don't even want to know my reaction when the "guidance" about what vaccinated people could or could not do came out. Let's just say that I have NOT stopped wearing my mask, even though I have had 2 vaccines. I am going for my booster in a week or so, my doctor did not want to overlap the Pneumovax 23 and co-vid vaccines. 

Folks, this virus is going to be around forever in one form or another. Our hope is that we can get to the point that we just go for our yearly vaccine like the flu. The CDC and WHO are going to be doing "best guesses" on which variants to vaccinate for each year. And until then, we are going to be having outbreaks. We just need as many people as possible to get some immunity so that it no longer overwhelms our hospitals and funeral homes. Until then, I'm going to be wearing my mask and signing up for every vaccine they let me have.



earlene said:


> Well, I got dose # 3 yesterday.  They would not administer to Hubby, so he has to wait (he is not immunocompromised).  I was disappointed that we couldn't get our 3rd dose at the same time, but it is what it is and I guess we will just carry on as we have.
> 
> I agree, @Johnez, that if we depend on only one thing and ignore all other precautions, we are taking undue risks. The fact that NO VACCINE EVER has been 100% effective 100% of the time seems to evade far too many people.  To expect NO ONE who is vaccinated will ever get sick is unrealistic, just as to going to a gunfight bare-chested and without armor, carrying only a baton is unrealistic.
> 
> So in conjunction with my annual pneumonia vaccine, I also practice good hygiene, I don't smoke, I maintain a healthy lifestyle via diet & exercise, paying particular attention to exercise lung capacity, I avoid being around people who are coughing whenever possible.  Another precaution to prevent pneumonia is to not drink (alcohol or alcoholically), but since I already don't, I did not list that as one of my actions.
> 
> Anyway, Good for you for continuing to wear a mask and avoiding large gatherings.  It gets lonely sometimes, I know.  So far, I have been fortunate, in spite of being immunocompromised, but I do diligently mask up when I am around people other than my closest family, who I know take the same precautions as I, so I feel safe with them most of the time.  My husband works with the public and we talked about the precautions to take when the pandemic started.  He follows the same kinds of procedures I was taught in nursing school: change out of work clothes immediately upon returning home and thoroughly wash up before contact with anyone at home.  He often does his own laundry as well, although on occasion I will do it myself, but I also take precautions then as well.
> 
> I have not completely avoided large crowds, but I do maintain a good distance and wear a mask when in those crowds, even when outdoors.  Hubby & I are going to attend a Dead & Company concert next month with my son, DIL & granddaughter.  I do have to frequently remind granddaughter to lift the mask back up over her nose, but she always follows my instruction when I do, so I feel safe enough with her as well.  When CoVid broke out, she & I were sharing space in a tiny house in San Antonio and neither of us has yet to infect the other.
> 
> Hubby & I celebrated our wedding anniversary this past week-end with a trip to Chicago, and one of the things that I saw that concerns me as much as mask wearing and vaccination rates was a woman at the hotel breakfast buffet who filled her water bottle from the drink dispenser, and pushed the lip of the bottle all the way up against the mechanism where the water comes out.  I said to her, 'When you fill your used water bottle with the bottle top touching the dispenser like that, you are contaminating the machine making it unsafe for any other person to use afterward.'  She replied something I didn't quite hear, and just went on filling her bottle to the top.  Even if she had pulled it away, I still would have done what I did next, because it was already contaminated by her lips having been on her water bottle before it was up against the dispenser tip.  I went to the Hotel employee overseeing the buffet and told him what had happened because now the tips would have to be de-contaminated.  He thanked me and immediately went to de-contaminate the machine.  And he returned to thank me again.  I am sure the hotel does not want to have to be known as a place where any disease spread by virtue of one self-centered thoughtless and uncaring person.
> 
> Good hygiene entails a lot more than wearing a mask and maintaining a safe distance from others.  I sometimes wonder why some people are so uncaring or oblivious to all the rest of what can cause the spread of disease and think only of immediate self-gratification at the expense of others.



I saw a waitress refill a tea glass while resting the side of the pitcher on the rim of the glass. I talked to the manager at that location and asked if that was SOP. He said yes. I told him we were done eating there. Then I reported that location to their corporate people. We shall see what their response is.

I will be either bringing my own iced tea to restaurants or only ordering bottled water until this gets better.


----------



## earlene

Susie said:


> I saw a waitress refill a tea glass while resting the side of the pitcher on the rim of the glass. I talked to the manager at that location and asked if that was SOP. He said yes. I told him we were done eating there. Then I reported that location to their corporate people. We shall see what their response is.
> 
> I will be either bringing my own iced tea to restaurants or only ordering bottled water until this gets better.


Shocking.  That really is wrong.  You should also report it to the County Health Department.  I doubt very much that is acceptable practice per the Food Handlers Certification course.  According to Texas law, all food employees are required to have a Food Handlers Certificate within 60 days of employment.  I don't know if the online courses (as little as $7.00 fee) are intensive enough to cover such detail, or if indeed everyone pays close attention to what they are supposed to learn and practice, but Health Dept. should be inspecting that restaurant at least annually & if they see that kind of practice, should be citing it as a violation.

At least that is my experience with food handling.  We owned a restaurant for awhile after I retired and the Health Dept. here is adamant about such things.  But of course, what is taught is not always what is practiced, as we well know.


----------



## Susie

earlene said:


> Shocking.  That really is wrong.  You should also report it to the County Health Department.  I doubt very much that is acceptable practice per the Food Handlers Certification course.  According to Texas law, all food employees are required to have a Food Handlers Certificate within 60 days of employment.  I don't know if the online courses (as little as $7.00 fee) are intensive enough to cover such detail, or if indeed everyone pays close attention to what they are supposed to learn and practice, but Health Dept. should be inspecting that restaurant at least annually & if they see that kind of practice, should be citing it as a violation.
> 
> At least that is my experience with food handling.  We owned a restaurant for awhile after I retired and the Health Dept. here is adamant about such things.  But of course, what is taught is not always what is practiced, as we well know.



That is why I started with the manager. The fact that he did not have a problem with it is what alarmed me. Our state/county health dept here is ... not very effective or efficient ... at taking care of some truly egregious violations in our area. I am not going to elaborate as to why I think that is, but I suspect you can probably fill in the options.

If I don't hear back from upper management, it won't change a thing for me, because I am not going back. You can't pay me enough.


----------



## Johnez

Susie said:


> I saw a waitress refill a tea glass while resting the side of the pitcher on the rim of the glass. I talked to the manager at that location and asked if that was SOP. He said yes. I told him we were done eating there. Then I reported that location to their corporate people. We shall see what their response is.
> 
> I will be either bringing my own iced tea to restaurants or only ordering bottled water until this gets better.



Is this a matter of the pitcher touching the glass? I'm curious as my SO worked with food and took it VERY seriously, I've learned a lot from her. She would point out all sorts of stuff at restaurants I wouldn't have even noticed.


----------



## DKing

Johnez said:


> Is this a matter of the pitcher touching the glass? I'm curious as my SO worked with food and took it VERY seriously, I've learned a lot from her. She would point out all sorts of stuff at restaurants I wouldn't have even noticed.


I am thinking since it is a refill happening, that the pitcher rim is touching the glass where people's mouths have touched.....then the pitcher would move on to the next glass, potentially spreading the germs from glass to glass which goes directly to a person's mouth.  Definitely not hygienic!


----------



## Rsapienza

I take this pandemic very seriously so I don’t want to imply that I don’t; however, if I were that concerned about germs, (which are inevitably everywhere), I probably wouldn’t be going out to eat at all. I mean, realistically, we have no idea what goes on in the kitchen, or anywhere out of our sight for that matter.


----------



## rdc1978

Susie said:


> I saw a waitress refill a tea glass while resting the side of the pitcher on the rim of the glass. I talked to the manager at that location and asked if that was SOP. He said yes. I told him we were done eating there. Then I reported that location to their corporate people. We shall see what their response is.
> 
> I will be either bringing my own iced tea to restaurants or only ordering bottled water until this gets better.



A few years ago (before covid) I just started bringing my water bottle with me everywhere.  

I think it was in an effort to drink more water and because I don't like disposable straws.  

You should do what makes you comfortable, but I'd hate to give up good food.


----------



## paradisi

Rsapienza said:


> I take this pandemic very seriously so I don’t want to imply that I don’t; however, if I were that concerned about germs, (which are inevitably everywhere), I probably wouldn’t be going out to eat at all. I mean, realistically, we have no idea what goes on in the kitchen, or anywhere out of our sight for that matter.


It's a completely different level of risk. Food poisoning doesn't kill thousands of people per outbreak; restaurants are mandated to be inspected and staff to be vaccinated for hepatitis, and rightwing loons don't protest against handwashing or correct food handling.

So weird how people don't get the differences/aren't aware of the legally mandated protections all around them that make things like eating in restaurants as safe as they are.

Plus, of course, E. coli, Listeria, and other food borne pathogens are not airborne. And covid is.


----------



## Tara_H

paradisi said:


> It's a completely different level of risk. Food poisoning doesn't kill thousands of people per outbreak; restaurants are mandated to be inspected and staff to be vaccinated for hepatitis, and rightwing loons don't protest against handwashing or correct food handling.
> 
> So weird how people don't get the differences/aren't aware of the legally mandated protections all around them that make things like eating in restaurants as safe as they are.
> 
> Plus, of course, E. coli, Listeria, and other food borne pathogens are not airborne. And covid is.


Oh, I read that as not going out to eat _during the pandemic_, maybe your interpretation is more accurate.


----------



## earlene

I had almost no reaction to my 3rd Moderna injection, in fact I was so mildly sore in my right deltoid, it was almost not present.  

But today I have my Pneumovax23 vaccine & my left deltoid is so uncomfortable I can barely tolerate moving my left arm.  I don't really recall the Pneumovax13 last year being even close to this uncomfortable.  Either way, I know I was relaxed and this is not from tightening my muscles.  I am extremely comfortable around needles and never tense up, so it's just the nature of the beast.  Of course I was forewarned and I wish I had taken an pain pill before I got home.

I had my Shingrex vaccine in my right arm & it's barely tender to touch, which is nice since that's the same place I got my #3 dose of Moderna this past Monday.

I thought I was all caught up on my vaccines, but just remembered today that I'll have to do the flu vaccine again in a couple of months (well, I guess I'm caught up for now, anyway.)

As far as food poisoning goes, it really can kill.  Pregnant women, the elderly and the very young and those with compromised immune systems are more like to experience complications leading to morbidity, and of course certain microbes are more deadly than others.

And the supposed mandate for hepatitis vaccination of food workers is not the case in every locality in the United States, I don't know about elsewhere.  It is apparently mandatory for ChildCare & School workers (grade-dependent) in the majority of states, but not for Food Handlers.  Some jurisdictions (county or other municipalities) pass ordinances requiring it, but that is not as common as one might expect.

If interested in mandatory vaccines by state see:  State Mandates on Immunization and Vaccine-Preventable Diseases: Hepatitis B  and subsequent maps showing more detail.


----------



## paradisi

Of course people die from food poisoning; the husband of a good friend of mine very nearly did.  

But the risk, from foodborne germs, is vanishingly small in comparison to the risk of death from covid.  

And our national inability to understand risk is part of the problem, from fear of vaccination to scoffing at the need for masks.

We're at 2/3 of a million deaths in the USA from covid since it began less than two years ago.

By contrast, yearly deaths from food borne illnesses in the US are less than  1% of that figure:

"The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates 1 in 6 Americans (48 million people) are affected by foodborne illness annually. The estimates suggest 128,000 people are hospitalized and 3,000 die. "




__





						What is the prevalence of food poisoning in the US?
					

Initially, food-borne diseases were estimated to be responsible for 6-8 million illnesses and as many as 9000 deaths each year.{ref5}{ref6} However, the change in food supply, the identification of ne... more



					www.medscape.com


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## Rsapienza

paradisi said:


> It's a completely different level of risk. Food poisoning doesn't kill thousands of people per outbreak; restaurants are mandated to be inspected and staff to be vaccinated for hepatitis, and rightwing loons don't protest against handwashing or correct food handling.
> 
> So weird how people don't get the differences/aren't aware of the legally mandated protections all around them that make things like eating in restaurants as safe as they are.
> 
> Plus, of course, E. coli, Listeria, and other food borne pathogens are not airborne. And covid is.


I’m not sure where this food poisoning topic came from as I said nothing about it. Possibly my use of the word “germs”?? I was referring to Covid.
You made no mention of airborne pathogens. The subject was a water pitcher touching a glass.
If you’re referring to “people” as me, I am fully aware of the protections/differences you speak of, but I am also aware that creating mandates and following said mandates are 2 totally different things. I mean….if everybody followed the law, there would be no crime



Tara_H said:


> Oh, I read that as not going out to eat _during the pandemic_, maybe your interpretation is more accurate.


It is not. You interpreted it correctly.


----------



## Vicki C

Susie said:


> I saw a waitress refill a tea glass while resting the side of the pitcher on the rim of the glass. I talked to the manager at that location and asked if that was SOP. He said yes. I told him we were done eating there. Then I reported that location to their corporate people. We shall see what their response is.
> 
> I will be either bringing my own iced tea to restaurants or only ordering bottled water until this gets better.


That’s disgusting. At least present a picture of sanitary practices to the customers, never mind what might go on in the kitchen.


----------



## earlene

paradisi said:


> Of course people die from food poisoning; the husband of a good friend of mine very nearly did.
> 
> But the risk, from foodborne germs, is vanishingly small in comparison to the risk of death from covid.
> 
> And our national inability to understand risk is part of the problem, from fear of vaccination to scoffing at the need for masks.
> 
> We're at 2/3 of a million deaths in the USA from covid since it began less than two years ago.
> 
> By contrast, yearly deaths from food borne illnesses in the US are less than  1% of that figure:
> 
> "The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates 1 in 6 Americans (48 million people) are affected by foodborne illness annually. The estimates suggest 128,000 people are hospitalized and 3,000 die. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the prevalence of food poisoning in the US?
> 
> 
> Initially, food-borne diseases were estimated to be responsible for 6-8 million illnesses and as many as 9000 deaths each year.{ref5}{ref6} However, the change in food supply, the identification of ne... more
> 
> 
> 
> www.medscape.com



Neither Susie nor I was saying the death rate & risk of food poisoning approached that of CoVid.  What we were both demonstrating by our very nearly timed experiences in establishments that provide food & beverage to the public, wherein some folks foster a cavalier attitude toward how their unhygienic practices affect other people around them (no finger pointing here at SMF, just our personal observations out in the world.)  Add to that the fact that we both do have compromised immune systems, the risks for us is greater than for some other folks, but that is just an aside, however, the restaurant worker should be aware that they may serve just about anyone with just about any invisible condition that may put them more at risk than anyone else.  My example was of the public itself (a woman at a water dispenser) and Susie's example was of wait-staff, AND the manager, all of whom showed blatant disregard for the welfare of the people around them by their unhygienic practices.  

We were just pointing out one more example of some people we have visually seen take unhygienic risks with the public at large and in the face of today's pandemic, we were both shocked that good hygiene is given so little regard by these folks.  Unhygienic practices in one area of one's life indicates there are other unhygenic practices in other areas of that person's life.  I believe we were both alluding to that fact, in case that was not altogether obvious.

We are both Nurses (I am retired and Susie is still working), and if you have read our previous posts, I think you would be aware that we have a great deal of experience and knowledge on the subject of infection control, pay very close attention to the CDC and the WHO and other reputable sources in regards to CoVid as well as hand-washing, and various other public health issues, including the bigger picture of how widespread unhygienic practices puts other people at risk.

You may not realize it, but you are preaching to the choir, while not taking into account the bigger picture that we were pointing out in our own personal experiences out in the public.  If your server or the restaurant manager where you eat is cavalier about good hygiene as related to drinking water, how seriously are they taking other hygienic precautions that relate to more serious risks?




Rsapienza said:


> I’m not sure where this food poisoning topic came from as I said nothing about it. Possibly my use of the word “germs”?? I was referring to Covid.
> You made no mention of airborne pathogens. The subject was a water pitcher touching a glass.
> If you’re referring to “people” as me, I am fully aware of the protections/differences you speak of, but I am also aware that creating mandates and following said mandates are 2 totally different things. I mean….if everybody followed the law, there would be no crime



Well that would certainly be nice (the no crime part.)


----------



## Susie

I am further going to say that even healthy people get very ill from food borne pathogens. My neighbor spent almost a month in the hospital and over a week in ICU from a lovely bit of restaurant carelessness. He ended up with over $1M worth of hospital bills. The health dept closed them down for quite a while as they found numerous egregious violations. And enough well-known people got ill enough that that restaurant ended up closing for good as no one was willing to go back.

I, myself, spent a week in a monitored bed with new onset atrial fibrillation after food poisoning picked up at a restaurant (I wasn't the only one that got sick, so the restaurant got a health dept. visit).

So, while food borne illnesses/sloppy restaurant habits typically do not spread through thousands of people, you don't want them to happen to you, or anyone you know.


----------



## Albertina

Susie said:


> I live in Texas, and let's just say my opinion about masks and social distancing are not in line with our esteemed governor. And you don't even want to know my reaction when the "guidance" about what vaccinated people could or could not do came out. Let's just say that I have NOT stopped wearing my mask, even though I have had 2 vaccines. I am going for my booster in a week or so, my doctor did not want to overlap the Pneumovax 23 and co-vid vaccines.
> 
> Folks, this virus is going to be around forever in one form or another. Our hope is that we can get to the point that we just go for our yearly vaccine like the flu. The CDC and WHO are going to be doing "best guesses" on which variants to vaccinate for each year. And until then, we are going to be having outbreaks. We just need as many people as possible to get some immunity so that it no longer overwhelms our hospitals and funeral homes. Until then, I'm going to be wearing my mask and signing up for every vaccine they let me have.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a waitress refill a tea glass while resting the side of the pitcher on the rim of the glass. I talked to the manager at that location and asked if that was SOP. He said yes. I told him we were done eating there. Then I reported that location to their corporate people. We shall see what their response is.
> 
> I will be either bringing my own iced tea to restaurants or only ordering bottled water until this gets better.


Excuse me. I'm Italian, what is SOP?


----------



## Rsapienza

Albertina said:


> Excuse me. I'm Italian, what is SOP?


I believe it’s “standard operating procedure”


----------



## TheGecko

Susie said:


> I saw a waitress refill a tea glass while resting the side of the pitcher on the rim of the glass. I talked to the manager at that location and asked if that was SOP. He said yes. I told him we were done eating there. Then I reported that location to their corporate people. We shall see what their response is.



Reported what exactly?  The tea was not being contaminated in any way.


----------



## KobokuSoaps

When the pandemic first started, and information started rolling in on who was going into dire health situations, mainly adults in poor health, I immediately started working on myself. I started working out and eating better and losing weight (lost 20lbs that I didn't need woohoo!), taking a multi-vitamin, doing breathing exercises to increase lung capacity. There was no vaccine at the time, no treatments, the only unknown treatment at the time was using convalescent plasma. Over the course of a year and a half now, I've seen 3 people that I know die of Covid related complications, basically suffocating to death, which I think is one of the worst ways to go. Just the thought of being forced against your will by a virus, laboring to breathe through an ever-decreasing diameter of straw until you die is terrible to think about.

I also remember when the first vaccines were being made available, the rich (probably highly educated) people in the US were flying to other states where they had abundant vaccines and could "cut the line" or people would lie about their health status to try and get the vaccine before others. Now the masses, the middle-class, the poor and uneducated have the chance to be vaccinated and yet aren't getting vaccinated for ridiculous reasons and unfounded beliefs. It's really mind-boggling.


----------



## earlene

TheGecko said:


> Reported what exactly?  The tea was not being contaminated in any way.


You are absolutely and entirely mistaken.  It is called Indirect Person-to-Person Transmission.  Once the drinking glass is delivered to the customer, it is assumed to be contaminated by either the customer's lips, finger, tongue, spittle, spoon (also probably contaminated), or other body parts.  To place the underside of the pouring vessel pour-spout on the edge or lip of a used drinking glass, the vessel becomes contaminated and re-contaminated EVERY SINGLE TIME it rests atop the edge of another used drinking glass while doing a re-fill. By moving from one used drinking glass to another used drinking glass, the server is spreading contamination from one table to another table to another table, contaminating each one with each re-fill, while also picking up more contaminants with each re-fill. This is exactly how it gets contaminated.  This is exactly what is wrong with this picture.

You may argue that the server doesn't really know if it is contaminated or not, but you are wrong.  It can never be assumed that a glass that has left the server's possession is uncontaminated once it is out of their possession.  No duly trained public health officer will tell you otherwise.


----------



## Susie

TheGecko said:


> Reported what exactly?  The tea was not being contaminated in any way.



So, you take a pitcher of tea and rest it against the rim of a glass. Assuming that the person drinking from the glass originally was not careful to be sure their lips touched _precisely _the same spot each time, and assuming again that the waitress made absolutely sure to avoid that spot touching the pitcher of tea, then sure, I will go with non-contamination. However, in the real world, a waitress that will touch the side of the pitcher with the glass someone has been drinking out of will touch the side of everyone's glass with the pitcher. So, someone else's saliva will now rest on the rim of your glass. Where your mouth will now go so that you can sip your tea.

And, considering the fact that I _showed _this behavior to the manager and asked him if it is standard operating procedures, and he said _YES. _I will never darken their door again. Even under the best of circumstances, this is unacceptable practice for a restaurant. I asked my son, who is restaurant manager for a venue that is nationwide, so he is trained for all states' health codes.

If you really don't find a problem with this behavior, you need to go take a microbiology course.

ETA: Didn't see Earlene's post before I replied, she explains it so much better than I did.


----------



## TheGecko

earlene said:


> You are absolutely and entirely mistaken.  It is called Indirect Person-to-Person Transmission.  Once the drinking glass is delivered to the customer, it is assumed to be contaminated by either the customer's lips, finger, tongue, spittle, spoon (also probably contaminated), or other body parts.  To place the underside of the pouring vessel pour-spout on the edge or lip of a used drinking glass, the vessel becomes contaminated and re-contaminated EVERY SINGLE TIME it rests atop the edge of another used drinking glass while doing a re-fill. By moving from one used drinking glass to another used drinking glass, the server is spreading contamination from one table to another table to another table, contaminating each one with each re-fill, while also picking up more contaminants with each re-fill. This is exactly how it gets contaminated.  This is exactly what is wrong with this picture.



I stand corrected, thank you.


----------



## Albertina

Rsapienza said:


> I believe it’s “standard operating procedure”


Thank you!


----------



## Catscankim

I was a bartender at a local hole in the wall in Philly about 25 years ago. We were NOT to refill a glass even though every customer always said "you can use the same glass"...we always gave them a new glass. I was a kid back then and didn't understand or care why...

But the reason behind it that I later found out is that EVERY bartender touches the glass edge to the beer tap, and if somebody already drank out of that glass, then now the beer tap is contaminated, thus transferring another customers saliva to the next beer that was poured from that tap.


----------



## Zing

Ugh.  My beloved wife tested positive and has mild symptoms and is isolated inside our house.  I tested negative and have no symptoms.  We are super careful and are vaccinated.  This delta strain is scary s***, people.  We have worn masks in stores since 2020.  When delta took off, we went back to outdoor socializing, refused invites to indoor events, curbside pickups, etc.  I'm kinda in a fog and can't believe this has happened despite all the precautions.  Luckily she has mild symptoms.


----------



## Babyshoes

Zing said:


> Ugh.  My beloved wife tested positive and has mild symptoms and is isolated inside our house.  I tested negative and have no symptoms.  We are super careful and are vaccinated.  This delta strain is scary s***, people.  We have worn masks in stores since 2020.  When delta took off, we went back to outdoor socializing, refused invites to indoor events, curbside pickups, etc.  I'm kinda in a fog and can't believe this has happened despite all the precautions.  Luckily she has mild symptoms.



Sending healing vibes and a wish that it stays mild!

Scary that even folks like yourselves who are doing everything right in terms of prevention can still catch it. At least the vaccines should mean it's a lot milder than it would otherwise have been.


----------



## ScentimentallyYours

I hope Mrs. Zing feels better soon!  I must admit that I had not realized how vulnerable we still are even with vaccinations now that the Delta variant is among us. NPR ran a story a couple of days ago that was very enlightening. We have met friends at restaurants, but after reading the NPR story we will have to be much more careful.  Hope you have a good supply of chicken soup!


----------



## beckster51

Zing, I am so, so sorry!  The Delta variant is scary and so hard to duck.  I hope your wife feels better soon, and that you stay negative.   Sometimes no matter how careful you are, it finds you.  I will be sending all positive and healing thoughts to you both along the airwaves.


----------



## Zing

Thanks, everyone, for the well wishes.  I appreciate it.  I've learned to re-frame in the era of delta to think of the vaccine as a "symptom or hospital preventer" instead of a "infection preventer."


----------



## rdc1978

Zing said:


> Ugh.  My beloved wife tested positive and has mild symptoms and is isolated inside our house.  I tested negative and have no symptoms.  We are super careful and are vaccinated.  This delta strain is scary s***, people.  We have worn masks in stores since 2020.  When delta took off, we went back to outdoor socializing, refused invites to indoor events, curbside pickups, etc.  I'm kinda in a fog and can't believe this has happened despite all the precautions.  Luckily she has mild symptoms.



Oh no.  I'm so so so so so sorry this is happening to you.  

And so glad the symptoms are mild and that you are both vaccinated.  

I know it's cliche but my thoughts are with you and I hope that she will have a speedy and full recovery.


----------



## earlene

Best wishes to both of you @Zing .


----------



## dibbles

@Zing I am so sorry to hear Mrs. Zing is ill. I hope her symptoms stay mild and you stay healthy. I am sure she will be tended to with the most TLC anyone could ask for.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I’m so sorry to hear this. Please add me to the list of those who are hoping Mrs. Zing has only the mildest of symptoms and a speedy recovery.


----------



## Susie

Prayers for both of you @Zing !


----------



## Bubble Agent

@Zing Eep, I hope you both will not be affected more than you already are, and that Mrs. Zing will not get any worse than she already is. Hope she will feel better soon, and that you will be ok too


----------



## Quilter99755

I wish you and Mrs. Zing all the best. I do think you are right about the delta variant. We have heard of a lot of friends who have gotten it after being vaccinated and being careful. I haven't seen my sister in two years other than through her doorway as she is very fragile healthwise and I do not want to be the one that carries it to her. We too have hunkered down and are back to doing less with anyone...it appears that it is too easy to be a carrier even if you have been vaccinated. So far, knock wood, all have recovered without hospitalization. I hope that you and yours are in the same boat. Take care of each other.


----------



## Tara_H

Yikes, hope Mrs Zing feels better soon!

I'm going for a test tomorrow myself, wish me luck... Met some colleagues in person for the first time ever last week, and although we are all fully vaccinated, unfortunately one of us has since tested positive, and I'm now a close contact :-/
I'm not feeling too bad but a bit under the weather, and my (soap) thermometer reckons I'm at 102! So figured a test is the way to go...


----------



## Misschief

Tara_H said:


> Yikes, hope Mrs Zing feels better soon!
> 
> I'm going for a test tomorrow myself, wish me luck... Met some colleagues in person for the first time ever last week, and although we are all fully vaccinated, unfortunately one of us has since tested positive, and I'm now a close contact :-/
> I'm not feeling too bad but a bit under the weather, and my (soap) thermometer reckons I'm at 102! So figured a test is the way to go...


Husband and I are going for testing later today. We came home early from vacation almost a week ago with cold/flu symptoms and I won't go back to work until I can rule Covid out. Thankfully, my boss agrees with me. I slept almost 20 hours yesterday because I was so tired; I'm feeling a little better today, emphasis on the word "little".


----------



## Zing

@Tara_H , @Misschief , sorry to hear you are under the weather!  Keep us posted.  If you do test positive, here's hoping for a mild case.  
Mrs. Zing is still isolated in bed and one of her main "symptoms" is boredom, I'm like, hello, ever heard of YouTube soaping videos!!  I'm relieved that so far she has a mild case.  I tested negative this morning.


----------



## dibbles

@Zing l’m so glad you tested negative and I hope Mrs. Zing’s worst symptom continues to be boredom. @Misschief and @Tara_H sending positive thoughts for a negative result. I hope you are both feeling better soon.


----------



## earlene

Misschief said:


> Husband and I are going for testing later today. We came home early from vacation almost a week ago with cold/flu symptoms and I won't go back to work until I can rule Covid out. Thankfully, my boss agrees with me. I slept almost 20 hours yesterday because I was so tired; I'm feeling a little better today, emphasis on the word "little".


Dear Misschief, I hope you both feel better soon.  And I truly hope you don't have CoVid, even if fully vacinated folks who come down with it don't often need hospitalization and don't get 'as sick' as others, it's still a pretty horrible disease and as yet we don't know what the true long-term affects of having CoVid are going to be for folks.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Rsapienza said:


> I mean, realistically, we have no idea what goes on in the kitchen, or anywhere out of our sight for that matter.


Unfortunately, that applies to the ER room at the hospital as well.


----------



## Misschief

earlene said:


> Dear Misschief, I hope you both feel better soon.  And I truly hope you don't have CoVid, even if fully vacinated folks who come down with it don't often need hospitalization and don't get 'as sick' as others, it's still a pretty horrible disease and as yet we don't know what the true long-term affects of having CoVid are going to be for folks.


Believe me, I hope all we have is a nasty head cold; I don't want it to be Covid. Both of us are fully vaxxed, thankfully, and in reasonably good health. At this point, it is what it is--we're both sick, just hoping it isn't Covid. I won't go back to work until I know I'm safe to do so and that means finding out for sure.

Thank you all for the good wishes, it means a lot!


----------



## Catscankim

Hope all is well for you guys


----------



## KiwiMoose

Oh - I just read this!  Poor Mrs @Zing!  Please wish her all the best from little old me in NZ - who now have rapidly spreading cases of the Delta variant (watch this space).
Good luck to you too @Misschief - here's hoping it's not covid
xx


----------



## Susie

Just to let everyone know, we already have the flu going around. So much fun!


----------



## szaza

Good luck with your tests @Tara_H and @Misschief ! And a very big get well soon to [email protected]


----------



## Zing

KiwiMoose said:


> Oh - I just read this!  Poor Mrs @Zing!  Please wish her all the best from little old me in NZ - who now have rapidly spreading cases of the Delta variant (watch this space).
> Good luck to you too @Misschief - here's hoping it's not covid
> xx


Thank you for the well wishes.  Too bad about NZ, I've been following how it responded to the pandemic and was ready to immigrate.  Stay safe.


----------



## Tara_H

Well, I got my brain poked at, should get the results tomorrow.
I think I might have some of that altered sense of smell going on though.  I sat down and was wondering what the weird smell of rotten fruit was.
Then I realized it was the glass of wine in my hand


----------



## KiwiMoose

Zing said:


> Thank you for the well wishes.  Too bad about NZ, I've been following how it responded to the pandemic and was ready to immigrate.  Stay safe.


We had a man die of DELTA yesterday.  He was 55 :-(
Overall our total death count from COVID is not bad - at only 28 since the start of the pandemic last year.  But still, we only have 5 mill population, so it's all relative.  This delta spreads like wildfire though - you barely ned to look at someone and you catch it.


----------



## Susie

KiwiMoose said:


> We had a man die of DELTA yesterday.  He was 55 :-(
> Overall our total death count from COVID is not bad - at only 28 since the start of the pandemic last year.  But still, we only have 5 mill population, so it's all relative.  This delta spreads like wildfire though - you barely ned to look at someone and you catch it.



This is why I have only left my house for a few trips to the doctor and outdoor trips to big box home improvement stores (with gloves and mask) since this began. My immune system is not good at all, as my hematologist just warned me, and I have lost two very dear friends to this. I don't need to add to the list. I have the privilege of working from home, so here I will stay until this is much better. I attend my church online, and even my Sunday School is online now.


----------



## Megan

Susie said:


> Just to let everyone know, we already have the flu going around. So much fun!


My doctor told me that they have predicted a very rough flu season this year. I still have to get my jab for that.

I've had 12 colds in 6 months (thanks to kids in daycare) so I don't want to risk it.


----------



## Misschief

Our results came back last night: we're both negative. The nurse who tested us did tell us there is a particularly nasty cold going around right now; a lot of their staff have been getting it. 

I'm starting to feel better but definitely not there yet. This cold packs a wallop, comes on hard and fast and takes a while to leave. I can remember my mom's doctor telling her a cold is about a week with medication and seven days without. It's already been 11 days and I'm still nowhere near over it.


----------



## szaza

I'm glad to hear you both tested negative @Misschief !


----------



## Tara_H

Well, I got a negative result today but I'm a bit skeptical! I may need to take another test later on, they said it may take longer for it to show up.


----------



## Susie

I've already had the flu this fall. I called my doctor's office and they said it was safer to stay home and nurse myself through it than to come in and get the medication. They were really unsurprised I had it, they said it hit the first week of September. I did go ahead and get my flu and Pneumovax 23 when I saw the doctor.


----------



## BattleGnome

Hopefully you guys can help me talk this through.

whenever work arranges it I will be getting my COVID booster. I got phizer for the first two doses. Would it be more effective if I requested a different vaccine brand or does it matter at this point? (I’ll take what I can get regardless of my options)

I just have concerns since six months ago everyone was comparing where the vaccines were tested to what variants they were most effective against. Is it similar to birth control being more effective if you use a condom and have an IUD? Are two brands better than one? Or am I over thinking since this is still so new in the grand scheme of thing? As I said, I’m not saying no when it comes to signing up for whatever booster they offer


----------



## paradisi

I listened to an epidemiologist last night on the news who said unless you were allergic to the one you'd had, there was no reason to change brands.. EXCEPT for the J&J.

 If you had J&J, she urged you to get one of the mRNA for booster (Moderna or Pfizer).  She said she herself had had the J&J and was going to get one of the others for her booster.


----------



## earlene

What @paradisi said.


----------



## AliOop

Dear dear friend has been hospitalized for three weeks. Currently intubated and in a medical coma. She was fully vaccinated but had several other risk factors. Her parents came up for prayer at church yesterday - dad couldn’t speak, mom barely able to whisper a few words. We are all heartbroken. 

This woman has (had?) an amazing singing voice and other musical talents. She has a sweet husband and 13yo miracle child (she wasn’t supposed to be able to conceive).

Docs say her lungs are very scarred. She needs a miracle to survive and then to recover. Appreciate prayers from all of you who pray.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

AliOop said:


> Appreciate prayers from all of you who pray.


I am so sorry to hear this. I'd like to help. If you don't mind, and it's no trouble, I need her name and location to focus a healing meditation.


----------



## AliOop

Zany_in_CO said:


> I am so sorry to hear this. I'd like to help. If you don't mind, and it's no trouble, I need her name and location to focus a healing meditation.


Thank you, Zany. Her name is Jessica and she is in Boise, Idaho.


----------



## paradisi

****.  I'm so sorry. Prayers you got.


----------



## Peachy Clean Soap

@AliOop Keeping her in prayers. Most sad


----------



## dibbles

I'm so sorry @AliOop


----------



## Daisy

@AliOop 
Praying for Jessica's healing.


----------



## Mommawolfe

Obsidian said:


> Lyrica is the only medication that helps fibro pain for me, it actually stopped all pain after just a couple doses. It was amazing but unfortunately, had side effects that wasn't worth it.


Lyrica causes migraines for me. Took it for a very SHORT time with my 4 level back fusion...as you said, NOT worth it!


----------



## Nostalgicgranny

Praying for your friend.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

@AliOop ,
Sending prayers for Jessica and her family.


----------



## Zing

Sorry for your friend, @AliOop , I am sending prayers her way as well.

I was thrilled that my employer started offering Moderna boosters to essential workers this week.  I got my 3rd Moderna yesterday and was thrilled and relieved.  After the first 2 doses, I had no side effects whatsoever.  But this morning, hoo boy!  Fever, chills, body aches, aching eye balls, headache, fatigue.  After lots of sleep and Tylenol I am upright and typing.  I am not sharing this for pity -- but just want to give a heads up to others who will get a Moderna booster.  At my work, we were the first cohort to get the booster so there was no data or anecdotal reports on what to expect.

I do want your pity, however, in that I'm stuck in bed when it will be the last warm high 50s day and garden tasks are undone.   Also, missing a backyard party tonight. 

Stay safe everyone -- and wash your hands!


----------



## Catscankim

@Zing … its a sign that your immune system is working good.

Havent gotten the third yet, but my second was terrible. Tylenol knocked it out. Woke up the next day and went to work just fine. As the day progressed, so did my wish to die lol, but i had to power through it. One of the PAs came to my dept…i never seen you like this, whats wrong. I was literally sitting on the floor. He had a nurse throw some tylenol in my pocket, which i took….all of them. Went home and straight to bed. The next morning you would never know that the day before i wanted to just die lol.


----------



## TheGecko

So sorry to hear about your friend @AliOop.

Boss called out sick yesterday.  It could just be an early start of the flu season...we're all still pretty run down from the end of the tax season two weeks ago, but he suspects it could be Covid.  He's "fully vaccinated" and careful, as are all the other adults in his household (multi-generational/multi-family), but we know that that doesn't mean squat.  We'll know when his test results come back.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

@Zing, thanks for the heads up. Haven't gotten my 3rd shot yet, but need to schedule it. I had some reaction to the first shot, none to the second. So I was hoping for no reaction with the third. Guess I need to schedule it when I don't have anything I have to do the next day.


----------



## Catscankim

Nona'sFarm said:


> Guess I need to schedule it when I don't have anything I have to do the next day.


Yes, you should do that...


----------



## Peachy Clean Soap

@Zing 
I'm so sorry to here this' hopefully by tomorrow you'll be up & about. 

I got the same Moderna Jab 1-2  on my 2nd jab I got sicker then a dog for several Days, I've decided after the 2nd jab No way am I getting another vaccination that is it.


----------



## earlene

Other than a bit of injection site soreness, my booster (in September) was side-effect free.  Just because someone else had a strong reaction, does not mean you are going to.  Of course just because someone did not have a reaction, does not mean you won't have one either.

People are different and have different responses to the very same thing.


----------



## AliOop

Update on my friend Jessica: she is still here and fighting the good fight. They've gotten most of the fluid out of her lungs, and her sat levels are hovering around 90, but she is still having trouble exhaling due to the extensive scar tissue. Doctors say she is not out of the woods by any means, but they are marveling at what a fighter she is. 

My deepest thanks to all of you who have prayed and are praying.


----------



## dibbles

So happy for any bit of good news @AliOop.


----------



## LynetteO

I had my booster last week (Phizer)…  . I was expecting it to be no big deal due to fact that @ 1st dose I had minor pain @ injection site only, 2nd dose had EXTREME fatigue & arm pain day 2 but back to  normal day 3. Booster however… Swollen & extremely tender lymph node in left armpit, same side as injection. That faded after 5 days to zero & then the itch began. Outbreak of shingles! It’s minor thank goodness I believe due to fact that 1. I got fully vaccinated for shingles after 1st & only outbreak prior to now & 2. I got in to see HCP 1st day rash sprouted in same spot as before. I was able to start anti-viral meds super fast. I’m going to be fine & feel better already, I  just wasn’t expecting the side effects.


----------



## AliOop

@dibbles thank you. 

@Obsidian @Susie I am not even sure how just today I ended up reading your posts above (from back in April) regarding Lyrica. 

FWIW, my husband cannot take Lyrica for his autoimmune pain, either. The only thing that has worked for him is low-dose naltrexone (LDN). It's very inexpensive and has zero side effects other than vivid dreams if he takes it at night, so he takes it during the day. There are some pretty good studies out there that support the use of it for relief of pain related to a variety of autoimmune diseases. About the only thing it appears to interact with are narcotics (which is why it is used in higher doses for addiction treatment).


----------



## Obsidian

Has anyone mixed vaccines? I got the jj back in march and will probably get a moderna booster. 
I'm in Idaho, we have no mandates and most people act like covid doesn't even exist. I need all the extra protection I can get


----------



## Zing

So just FYI for those getting a Moderna booster following 2 Moderna shots, my side effects lasted 24 hours.  I was completely knocked out for 24 hours (fatigue, achiness, headache) after my booster -- but today am back to normal speed.  I am so happy regardless because I'm a totally paranoid essential worker.  Stay safe everyone, and, um, WASH YOUR HANDS!


----------



## dibbles

@Zing sorry you were sick on one of the last beautiful days we are likely to have, but I'm glad you are feeling better today. I'm scheduled for my booster on Wednesday (Moderna). I'll not plan to do much on Thursday - thanks for the heads up. And if I end up feeling fine - bonus day!


----------



## dibbles

Obsidian said:


> Has anyone mixed vaccines? I got the jj back in march and will probably get a moderna booster.
> I'm in Idaho, we have no mandates and most people act like covid doesn't even exist. I need all the extra protection I can get


My MIL originally had the Pfizer vaccine, and had a Moderna booster. She was sick for a day (or two?) after her 2nd Pfizer shot, but nothing other than a little tired after her booster.


----------



## Catscankim

AliOop said:


> Update on my friend Jessica: she is still here and fighting the good fight. They've gotten most of the fluid out of her lungs, and her sat levels are hovering around 90, but she is still having trouble exhaling due to the extensive scar tissue. Doctors say she is not out of the woods by any means, but they are marveling at what a fighter she is.
> 
> My deepest thanks to all of you who have prayed and are praying.


Keeping her in my thoughts @AliOop  ❤  ❤  ❤


----------



## TheGecko

My state is going vaccine mandate crazy and we are losing valuable people...police officers, firefighters, healthcare workers, educators and supporting staff.  

Gun violence in the city (Portland) has escalated to making the national news. It started with "defunding" the police which included defunding/disbanding the latest gang taskforce (aka Gun Violence Reduction Team) 'cuz they were picking on targeting people of color. And we lost the response team for protests...they all quit after well over a year of rioting.

Schools don't have enough teachers or bus drivers. Two friends of mine who were long-term teachers are sitting at home right now. Running errands the other day during the week, I noticed several day care centers are closed. One of our clients who has a convenience store has seen an increase in shop lifting...when he called the police he was told flat out that there is nothing they can do. If he needs a report number for insurance purposes, they will take a report, but it won't be investigated because they don't have the manpower for anything more than serious crimes. When we went shopping two weeks ago, the problems at the docks and shortage of truck drivers can easily be seen...the empty shelves reminded me of the early days of Covid. I don't blame the drivers, they were pretty abused last year and a lot quit. 

Companies in hospitality and service are facing employee shortages. Initially it was blamed on the very generous unemployment benefits, but now they have ended and it's being blamed on low wages. But companies have raised the wages and are still having hiring problems. I think it's a combination of the abuse these folks face all the time these days and that they can still get Covid even if they are vaccinated. 

Anyhoo...gots to go to work.  Talked to Boss yesterday...he is still sick.  Home kit says he's negative, but he said if he wasn't better today, he'd go to the doctor.


----------



## gww

If a cop pulls me over he ought to be serving and protecting and not putting me at extra risk.  Nothing is changing so much in that they have always had time to raise revenue with driving infractions and have never had the priority or ability to solve purse snatching and home burglary except by filing reports and maybe getting lucky.  They certainly have not dedicated resources in a way that prioritizes crime over revenue.   

I do think being forced out of the rat race for a short period of time has given some people experiences that may have them reevaluating their priorities in life as it pertains to what they had been doing prior to the experience.

As far as I can tell, not everyone who has been vaccinated is having a break through case and many seem to have extra protection for themselves and those around them.  Any exceptions to the norm does not change the helpfulness that is possible for many.
Cheers
gww


----------



## linne1gi

Zing said:


> Sorry for your friend, @AliOop , I am sending prayers her way as well.
> 
> I was thrilled that my employer started offering Moderna boosters to essential workers this week.  I got my 3rd Moderna yesterday and was thrilled and relieved.  After the first 2 doses, I had no side effects whatsoever.  But this morning, hoo boy!  Fever, chills, body aches, aching eye balls, headache, fatigue.  After lots of sleep and Tylenol I am upright and typing.  I am not sharing this for pity -- but just want to give a heads up to others who will get a Moderna booster.  At my work, we were the first cohort to get the booster so there was no data or anecdotal reports on what to expect.
> 
> I do want your pity, however, in that I'm stuck in bed when it will be the last warm high 50s day and garden tasks are undone.   Also, missing a backyard party tonight.
> 
> Stay safe everyone -- and wash your hands!


Hi Zing, I got my booster about 10 days ago.  Also Moderna & like you I got really sick. Fever of 101, aches (my fingers were soooo painful), shaking chills.  Fortunately it lasted only 24 hours.   I’m not looking forward to the next one (I have heard that we’ll be needing a booster every 6 months).


----------



## TheGecko

gww said:


> If a cop pulls me over he ought to be serving and protecting and not putting me at extra risk. Nothing is changing so much in that they have always had time to raise revenue with driving infractions and have never had the priority or ability to solve purse snatching and home burglary except by filing reports and maybe getting lucky. They certainly have not dedicated resources in a way that prioritizes crime over revenue.



If a cop pulls you over for speeding he IS serving and protecting...other people from your stupidity. Same when s/he pulls you over for having a head or brake light out because YOU could cause an accident. Heck, I almost got in an accident this afternoon because someone was speeding. It's posted 30mph, person had to be doing 50 when they came flying around the corner.

Yes, it would be wonderful if all crimes could be solved in 45 minutes the way they show on television, but real life doesn't work that way. My BIL's brother was severely beaten, left for dead and his bike stolen in the wee hours of the morning. There were no cameras, no eye witnesses...just him left lying in a field off a dirt path The usual evidence...like what you see on TV...was collected, but it does little good if the perpetrators aren't already in the system for another crime; which was the case here. A week later...the cops got 'lucky'. Some guy overhead some other guy, a friend of a friend of a friend, bragging about beating up some 'retard', about how he and his cousin worked him over real good and took his bike. From that lead, they got more leads and eventually ended up knocking on the cousin's door with a search warrant and found the bike. Possession of bike doesn't make the guy guilty...he could have purchased it off of Craig's List. But again...luck. These guys weren't professional bike thieves so it hadn't been 'processed' (serial marks removed, sanded and repainted)...it hadn't even been washed. My BIL's brother's fingerprints were on it, his blood was on it...so were both of the guy's. More 'luck'...the guy who had possession of the bike talked thinking he wouldn't get into as much trouble since he didn't actually take the bike, he was just storing it. And he tried to stop his cousin. If the bike had been cleaned. If the guys had kept their mouths shut. The crime would have remained unsolved...or at least unsolved until these boys (19 and 20) got caught for something else or until they needed a security clearance because there is no statute of limitations on murder (BIL's brother never recovered and died almost a year later). 

The above is the reality of criminal investigations...just a lot of freaking luck.



> I do think being forced out of the rat race for a short period of time has given some people experiences that may have them reevaluating their priorities in life as it pertains to what they had been doing prior to the experience.



I can agree to that to a certain extent.  I think there were couples who found out that that second income wasn't really as much as they thought it was by the time you subtract work-related expenses, higher tax bracket and child care.  That having one person at home doing stuff during the week that they could only do at night or weekends, meant they had more time at night and the weekends.  That the things they thought they had to have or spent money on because they both worked...they didn't need or wasn't as important.  I think there were folks to took the opportunity to either better their skills and/or find different jobs.  It's not like you can tell your current boss that you need time off to interview for a better job.  I have a friend who decided that Covid was God's way of telling her that it was time to retire; she works two days a week.  Another friend had been wanting to open his own business for awhile...Covid gave him that opportunity and he can be home with the kids.


----------



## Susie

I had the Moderna vaccines and a Pfizer booster. Same side effects on all of them. Sore arm. It is good in a way, but even my immunologist thinks I may not be producing the antibodies. This is not a new issue for me, I took three rounds (three injections each) of Hepatitis B vaccine without sero-converting. I finally gave up. And new employers understand why I am opting out once I explain the issue. I am worried it will be like that again on this vaccine.

I believe in vaccines. I do not believe in vaccine mandates. We are losing people in all of the essential worker fields at a tremendous rate over those stupid unnecessary mandates. I think everyone would be much wiser to get the vaccines.  I even think they should have vaccine clinics at essential workers' workplaces so they are extremely convenient to obtain. But this is supposed to be the land of the free. When did that change?


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@Nona'sFarm if you haven’t scheduled yet, some of the local walgreens are offering moderna or pfizer.  I’m scheduled to have my booster on Friday at the one in the ‘burg.


----------



## Quilter99755

I had my booster and a normal flu shot the same day, in the same arm. All three of my covid vaccines were pfizer. The first one was the worst with a sore arm the first day, and no energy the second. Just a sore arm for the second one and third one. Just sore enough that I didn't want to sleep on that side but it was gone by the next morning. I rarely get reactions from shots. But I have plenty of friends who had nasty reactions, so I do feel for those that do.


----------



## AliOop

The docs told Jessica’s family that she cannot survive due to lung scarring, and they need to discuss taking her off life support. Family members are not in agreement about whether or when to do this.


----------



## earlene

Families rarely are in agreement on these matters, even when the person in question makes their wishes explicitly known ahead of time both verbally and in writing. It is tough on the family to have to make such a decision as it brings with it strong emotions, unfinished business, feelings of their own immortality and often feelings of guilt.

I am so sorry for the grief this is causing you, AliOop, as well as for the family and other loved ones.


----------



## AliOop

earlene said:


> Families rarely are in agreement on these matters, even when the person in question makes their wishes explicitly known ahead of time both verbally and in writing. It is tough on the family to have to make such a decision as it brings with it strong emotions, unfinished business, feelings of their own immortality and often feelings of guilt.
> 
> I am so sorry for the grief this is causing you, AliOop, as well as for the family and other loved ones.


Thank you, Earlene.


----------



## gww

*TheGecko



			Same when s/he pulls you over for having a head or brake light out because YOU could cause an accident.
		
Click to expand...

*If a cop pulls me over and I have an issue that I would most likely find out about and have not caused and accident and he gives me covid due to refusal to protect himself or me, he has done no favor for society or those that I might come in contact with from that point on.

I do agree with much of your post though.

Suzie
As there are people such as you that really have no choice in the matter, it seems even more helpful for those who do not have such issues to take care of their family and neighbors by doing things that are shown to help alleviate risk to others with billions of examples of the safety of doing so.  This would seem especially true for those with jobs that are integral to interaction that the public have no way of living with out contact with those in that kind of job.

If we talk about choice, one choice seems to be more helpful to the whole then the other choice.

None of this is new, when I joined the army in 1980, I got to walk down a line of shots with hundreds of others due to the protections that science offered the whole force and those that force would interact with.
Cheers
gww

Ps, I do not know why the above is typed with bold print but I did not want to shout with my fingers but was just not smart enough to change it.

AliOop
Hope it works out a good as it can in the end.  Some things in life are hard and with few right answers.  Sorry for you, your friend and her family.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Megan

AliOop said:


> The docs told Jessica’s family that she cannot survive due to lung scarring, and they need to discuss taking her off life support. Family members are not in agreement about whether or when to do this.


I'm so sorry to hear this. It is a very hard decision to make.


----------



## paradisi

AliOop said:


> The docs told Jessica’s family that she cannot survive due to lung scarring, and they need to discuss taking her off life support. Family members are not in agreement about whether or when to do this.


Oh no, I'm sorry. This is so awful. And family members sometimes cling to hope past reason because... it's so hard to let go. What a horrible road for all of them, and you.


----------



## cmzaha

Susie said:


> I had the Moderna vaccines and a Pfizer booster. Same side effects on all of them. Sore arm. It is good in a way, but even my immunologist thinks I may not be producing the antibodies. This is not a new issue for me, I took three rounds (three injections each) of Hepatitis B vaccine without sero-converting. I finally gave up. And new employers understand why I am opting out once I explain the issue. I am worried it will be like that again on this vaccine.
> 
> I believe in vaccines. I do not believe in vaccine mandates. We are losing people in all of the essential worker fields at a tremendous rate over those stupid unnecessary mandates. I think everyone would be much wiser to get the vaccines.  I even think they should have vaccine clinics at essential workers' workplaces so they are extremely convenient to obtain. But this is supposed to be the land of the free. When did that change?


What I question is when does the vaccine finally work, since we now have vaccine number 4. I was vaccinated, against my kids, and my initial thoughts on this with Pfizer, with number two making me very ill for 2 weeks and a very sore arm even now which is weeks later. I am not about to get numbers 3 and 4. In my humble opinion if they keep adding more vaccines it is not working. I know personally more than one family that has contracted the Delta strain who have been vaccinated. I feel they need to be working harder on treatment meds for this virus.

Firing folks from essential departments, or anyone from their jobs because of their beliefs is Not the way to do things in our country. We have surely lost our perspective on how our forefathers built our country.



AliOop said:


> The docs told Jessica’s family that she cannot survive due to lung scarring, and they need to discuss taking her off life support. Family members are not in agreement about whether or when to do this.


I am so sorry Alison. It is such a hard decision to make but at times it is better for the patient to let them have peace. We went through this with my MIL years ago. While it was not my decision I had a long talk with my husband and finally convinced him to convince his sister and brother to take their mom off life support for her comfort and peace. She simply could not come back.


----------



## gww

cmzaha
I agree with the finding better treatments.


----------



## paradisi

Susie said:


> I had the Moderna vaccines and a Pfizer booster. Same side effects on all of them. Sore arm. It is good in a way, but even my immunologist thinks I may not be producing the antibodies. This is not a new issue for me, I took three rounds (three injections each) of Hepatitis B vaccine without sero-converting. I finally gave up. And new employers understand why I am opting out once I explain the issue. I am worried it will be like that again on this vaccine.
> 
> I believe in vaccines. I do not believe in vaccine mandates. We are losing people in all of the essential worker fields at a tremendous rate over those stupid unnecessary mandates. I think everyone would be much wiser to get the vaccines.  I even think they should have vaccine clinics at essential workers' workplaces so they are extremely convenient to obtain. But this is supposed to be the land of the free. When did that change?


If essential workers like healthcare, fire & police refuse to vaccinate and thus place others at risk of serious longterm illness or death due to covid19, I'm quite comfortable with their jobs being available instead to workers who will vaccinate & put others' lives first.


As to mandates, 1905:

"Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. 

The Court's decision articulated the view that *individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state. *

Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia"





__





						Jacobson v. Massachusetts - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## AliOop

Thank you for sharing that Carolyn, it helps me understand the dynamics happening here since it is very similar to what you shared. She's been through a physically and emotionally agonizing experience, and it will only get worse as her organs begin shutting down. Comfort and peace sound best to me, but perhaps I would feel differently if I had unfinished business with her, which is what I believe is happening here.


----------



## Vicki C

AliOop said:


> The docs told Jessica’s family that she cannot survive due to lung scarring, and they need to discuss taking her off life support. Family members are not in agreement about whether or when to do this.


Oh how heartbreaking - I’m so sorry for her, for you, and all her loved ones. I hope the family is getting helpful guidance and support.


----------



## Daisy

LynetteO said:


> I had my booster last week (Phizer)…  . I was expecting it to be no big deal due to fact that @ 1st dose I had minor pain @ injection site only, 2nd dose had EXTREME fatigue & arm pain day 2 but back to  normal day 3. Booster however… Swollen & extremely tender lymph node in left armpit, same side as injection. That faded after 5 days to zero & then the itch began. Outbreak of shingles! It’s minor thank goodness I believe due to fact that 1. I got fully vaccinated for shingles after 1st & only outbreak prior to now & 2. I got in to see HCP 1st day rash sprouted in same spot as before. I was able to start anti-viral meds super fast. I’m going to be fine & feel better already, I  just wasn’t expecting the side effects.



Sorry to hear about you developing shingles. I hope you are well on your way to a full recovery.
It's a fear I had when I got my two shots of Covid vaccine since they followed my 2nd dose of Shingrix vaccine!
Which shingles vaccine did you get?


----------



## LynetteO

Daisy said:


> Sorry to hear about you developing shingles. I hope you are well on your way to a full recovery.
> It's a fear I had when I got my two shots of Covid vaccine since they followed my 2nd dose of Shingrix vaccine!
> Which shingles vaccine did you get?


Thank you so much!   I am feeling much improved & almost back .
I also  received two doses of Shingrix vaccine to protect me from further shingles outbreaks. this is my last!


----------



## earlene

gww said:


> Ps, I do not know why the above is typed with bold print but I did not want to shout with my fingers but was just not smart enough to change it.


You can UNbold the text in edit.  Just highlight the entirety of the text  you want to change and click on the B at the top of the edit entry box like this:


----------



## gww

earlene
Believe it or not I tried that.  I do have a sticky button on my laptop that goes through spells of having to be hit just perfect.  I did go back and edit that post after reading your response and it did work this time.  Thank you.
Cheers
gww


----------



## cerelife

paradisi said:


> If essential workers like healthcare, fire & police refuse to vaccinate and thus place others at risk of serious longterm illness or death due to covid19, I'm quite comfortable with their jobs being available instead to workers who will vaccinate & put others' lives first.


With all due respect @paradisi - We essential workers have been putting others' lives first since the onset of this pandemic. I'm a CT tech in a large hospital and as such I've been on the front line for Covid cases from the very beginning since CT is the preferred modality for imaging Covid patients. We were scared to death EVERY. SINGLE. DAY because no one was really sure how it was transmitted/how long the virus survived in the air or on surfaces/etc. 
But we showed up, suited up, and took care of our patients even though we were terrified of getting infected - or even worse - bringing the virus home to our families. 
We've worked nonstop through the pandemic while others got paid to stay home. 
I don't even know how to put into words how (mentally and physically) exhausted we are from constantly being vigilant against spreading this virus. 
In an 8-hour shift during the height of the virus; I had to suit up in full PPE on a daily average of at least 10 times. And then sanitize every surface in my CT suite while still in full PPE before I could take care of myself. 
This has been terrifying and traumatic and there isn't enough money in the universe to pay us for what we've gone through to take care of our patients during these unprecedented times.
All of this to say that your statement is incredibly insulting to those of us who have put not only our lives - but also our family's lives - on the line long before there was a vaccine available.
I personally am fully vaccinated, but you do realize that vaccinated people can still contract Covid and spread it to others, right? And since we may be asymptomatic, that makes us a little more dangerous.
But by all means, fire all of the essential workers who refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental vaccine. I'm glad you're "quite comfortable" with that.
My apologies if I'm not so comfortable with this opinion that seems to be growing in popularity in social media. We need help and I'll be happy to add a link to our hospital group's Human Resource "Available Jobs" page for anyone with this mindset who wants to come be exposed to Covid everyday with us.


----------



## Susie

gww said:


> cmzaha
> I agree with the finding better treatments but thought I would add a fun fact to the rest.
> George Washington did mandate his whole force to try and be immunized in secret during the war that started the building of our nation.
> Cheers
> gww
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact check: Did George Washington mandate vaccines for his army?
> 
> 
> "George Washington mandated smallpox vaccines for the Continental Army," reads the text of an image that's being shared on social media with an illustration of the first president of the United States on horseback. PolitiFact checks the claim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wral.com





*History of Smallpox - CDC*
https://www.cdc.gov › smallpox › history › history



Feb 20, 2021 — The basis for _vaccination_ began in 1796 when the English doctor Edward Jenner noticed that milkmaids who had gotten cowpox were protected from ...



cerelife said:


> With all due respect @paradisi - We essential workers have been putting others' lives first since the onset of this pandemic. I'm a CT tech in a large hospital and as such I've been on the front line for Covid cases from the very beginning since CT is the preferred modality for imaging Covid patients. We were scared to death EVERY. SINGLE. DAY because no one was really sure how it was transmitted/how long the virus survived in the air or on surfaces/etc.
> But we showed up, suited up, and took care of our patients even though we were terrified of getting infected - or even worse - bringing the virus home to our families.
> We've worked nonstop through the pandemic while others got paid to stay home.
> I don't even know how to put into words how (mentally and physically) exhausted we are from constantly being vigilant against spreading this virus.
> In an 8-hour shift during the height of the virus; I had to suit up in full PPE on a daily average of at least 10 times. And then sanitize every surface in my CT suite while still in full PPE before I could take care of myself.
> This has been terrifying and traumatic and there isn't enough money in the universe to pay us for what we've gone through to take care of our patients during these unprecedented times.
> All of this to say that your statement is incredibly insulting to those of us who have put not only our lives - but also our family's lives - on the line long before there was a vaccine available.
> I personally am fully vaccinated, but you do realize that vaccinated people can still contract Covid and spread it to others, right? And since we may be asymptomatic, that makes us a little more dangerous.
> But by all means, fire all of the essential workers who refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental vaccine. I'm glad you're "quite comfortable" with that.
> My apologies if I'm not so comfortable with this opinion that seems to be growing in popularity in social media. We need help and I'll be happy to add a link to our hospital group's Human Resource "Available Jobs" page for anyone with this mindset who wants to come be exposed to Covid everyday with us.



^^^^^This!!!!

Repeat this millions of times over for all of the companies who are forced to mandate vaccines just because they do business in one way or another with the government.  Add to that all of the first responders that every one of our lives depend upon. Then, once all of those people decide to stop going to work, what exactly are you going to do when YOU, God forbid, need one of them?


----------



## gww

Susie
If a shot has been taken by billions of people and has proven to be pretty risk free, then it is most likely not still experimental.  If there is data that shows some benefit with very little risk then the choice becomes more of a do the right thing or wrong thing.  Under these types of situations and taking into fact, let say something like after the mandate in New York police mandate where 92 percent of the police have taken it, should we look up to the 8 percent that are out layers?   Is not taking a safe thing that gives some help not kind of a funny thing to hang your hat on and become a hill to die on?

People are funny and most are not all good or all bad.  They should be praised and given credit for the good things they do but having did one good thing should not be a license to do bad things.  You should get credit for all you do.

My belief is that I have more freedom with the least amount of responsibility but if it were my job that gave me the responsibility over the safety of others and I may be the one who is involved with policy that effects safety, I would more have to look at the data and what is safest to meet my added responsibilities.

If someone decides they would rather not do a public job rather then take a shot, I could not fault that decision.  However, if they had small pox and wanted to go to a movie in a crowded theater, their decision should not be honored because it would be a purely selfish decision regardless of any adverse effect that it had on others.   Now if that person decided to wear a bright green shirt and pink pants and tin foil on his head and go to that same movie, it would be a personal decision that does not effect anyone else and should be his to rightly make.

Cheers
gww
Ps I loved your participation in the big liquid soap threads on this site and it gave me the confidence to make two batches so far.


----------



## AliOop

@gww the issue is that not everyone agrees that the vaccines are safe; that they are necessary for those with natural immunity; or that mandating them will actually provide greater protection than not.

Thus, it isn’t a matter of these first responders willingly exposing people to danger, but a belief that they are NOT doing so - based on the sources of scientific information that they find credible. You may not agree with those sources, but that’s the reasoned decision each of us faces daily on a multitude of issues.

I find it disturbing and sad that instead of believing the best about these true heroes of our nation, so many are quick to discard them because they have made reasoned decisions based on all they have seen and experienced - not to mention their own medical training.

I personally would rather risk potential contact with COVID than risk not having a police officer, firefighter, or medical professional available when I need them.

You may feel differently, but that doesn’t give the government the right to force that shortage upon me because of their decision that the risk is covid is worse than the risk of rising violent crime, the possibility of my house burning down, or the chance that I may have no EMT to get me out of that car crash or treat me on the way to the hospital.

Not to mention that should we make it to the hospital, we will languish bc there is no one there to put us  back together. Or God forbid, treat us for covid.


----------



## Basil

AliOop said:


> The docs told Jessica’s family that she cannot survive due to lung scarring, and they need to discuss taking her off life support. Family members are not in agreement about whether or when to do this.


I've been behind on this. I'm so sorry @AliOop.  We have had two members in our family who've been on ventilators and have had to make this decision. It's very difficult and I'm so sorry they have to go through this. This is hard for you as a friend as well. I pray too, and I'll be praying for all of you.


----------



## paradisi

> ="cerelife, post: 917958, member: 4592"]
> With all due respect @paradisi - We essential workers have been putting others' lives first since the onset of this pandemic. I'm a CT tech in a large hospital and as such I've been on the front line for Covid cases from the very beginning since CT is the preferred modality for imaging Covid patients. We were scared to death EVERY. SINGLE. DAY because no one was really sure how it was transmitted/how long the virus survived in the air or on surfaces/etc.
> But we showed up, suited up, and took care of our patients even though we were terrified of getting infected - or even worse - bringing the virus home to our families.
> We've worked nonstop through the pandemic while others got paid to stay home.
> I don't even know how to put into words how (mentally and physically) exhausted we are from constantly being vigilant against spreading this virus.
> In an 8-hour shift during the height of the virus; I had to suit up in full PPE on a daily average of at least 10 times. And then sanitize every surface in my CT suite while still in full PPE before I could take care of myself.
> This has been terrifying and traumatic and there isn't enough money in the universe to pay us for what we've gone through to take care of our patients during these unprecedented times.
> All of this to say that your statement is incredibly insulting to those of us who have put not only our lives - but also our family's lives - on the line long before there was a vaccine available.
> I personally am fully vaccinated, but you do realize that vaccinated people can still contract Covid and spread it to others, right? And since we may be asymptomatic, that makes us a little more dangerous.
> But by all means, fire all of the essential workers who refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental vaccine. I'm glad you're "quite comfortable" with that.
> My apologies if I'm not so comfortable with this opinion that seems to be growing in popularity in social media. We need help and I'll be happy to add a link to our hospital group's Human Resource "Available Jobs" page for anyone with this mindset who wants to come be exposed to Covid everyday with us.


I do realize. And-- coming from a medical family with medical, police & firefighters as friends-- I don't respect choosing to disregard the safety of others, especially when based on politics.

The vaccines aren't experimental. It's shocking that you'd let that disinformation guide you.

You make your choice, you live with the consequences of having to find a different line of work.

Nobody forced anyone to take those jobs. But people in distress (wrecks, fires, heart attacks etc.) are going to come in contact with them.  What about  *their* rights?

As I said, I'm comfortable with workers in public facing jobs who won't get vaccinated having to either find non public facing accommodations if the employer has them,  or find another job.

( Political comment deleted in post above - against forum rules. )


----------



## earlene

Vaccination mandates have existed in our culture world-wide to varying degrees for a very long time. 

The first trial for the polio vaccine in US schools was in 1954.  And I remember lining up with hundreds of other children to get vaccinated against polio via sugar cube distribution as a child a few years later.  My parents gladly took us to  get it because they didn't want their 5 children (at the time) to end up in a wheel chair like our former president had been.

When the Hepatitis B vaccine became mandatory for hospital nurses (& others), I gladly got mine while hoping for vaccines for the other forms of Hepatitis, because as an RN accidental needle-stick exposures were a very real risk! Luckily I never did contract any form of Hepatitis despite exposures, but while in the military, my brother did and his quality of life changed drastically for the rest of his life. So he participated in clinical trials to help identify effective treatment.  Decades of his life was dedicated to finding a cure for Hepatitis C.  There is still no vaccine for it, but at least there are effective treatments and a cure.  But it would be far better to never contract the disease than to have to suffer through the treatments and the cure.

Maybe one day there will be a vaccine to protect against AIDs.  I know a lot of effort continues to be put into finding a vaccine and a cure.

Both in my private life and in my career, I have seen many people sick with many of the diseases for which `vaccines now exist to protect against, and I sincerely say I'd rather be vaccinated for every one of them.  I'm old enough that I've had a few diseases before the vaccines became available, and even though I survived, I much preferred my children, grand & great grandchildren be vaccinated than have to suffer those diseases.  And I did not have to suffer all the diseases that many before me had to suffer because I was vaccinated.  And my sons did not have to suffer all the diseases I did because they were vaccinated.  And my grandchildren & great grandchildren won't have to suffer all the diseases that many people my age and my children's and grandchildren's ages could not be protected against, so I am and will remain a believer in the necessity of vaccines to protect health and welfare. 

And I did not even address the requirements that many nations put on travelers regarding required vaccinations prior to being allowed to visit said countries.  There are many world-wide, for good reason, and I support that as well.


----------



## gww

AliOop


> Not to mention that should we make it to the hospital, we will languish bc there is no one there to put us back together. Or God forbid, treat us for covid.


The hospitals that have been forced to let patients languish lately is bc of covid over load with unvaccinated being in numbers ten to one of those vaccinated.

Vaccine hesitancy has been around since the first vaccine.  I have only taken two flue shots in my life so far and not cause I am so against them but more because I was lazy.  I the 1918 pandimic, the vaccine did not really work but also did not really hurt anyone for the effort.  The track record is mostly good and the risk is mostly low.  Nothing is perfect.  However,  None of the previous accomplishments could have worked with out participation and some times mandates. 

I have two choices to look at this.  One is where I am with only responsibility for myself and the ability to just stay home and collect my check in the mail.  Others have no choice but to get out and get it on just to survive.  Others yet have responsibility given to them by others to address public policy.   In my mind, it is best to try and put myself in all the above situations and try and figure big picture what is best for all and then to not be so critical of those who are doing their best with good intent. 

If you are not one of those that is allergic to what is in the vaccine or have some other medical situation including age for young children, the most helpful thing seems to be to get vaccinated not to protect yourself but to protect others who might not be as lucky to have the same ability to do so as I do.  I am not saying people should be lemmings and all swim together into the sea and kill themselves but also find it hard to respect the 8 percent of the new york cops who are better then all their co workers when using the same data to make a decision for good or bad.
Cheers.
gww
Ps Belief is a funny thing, there are still people that believe we did not land on the moon and that the world is flat.  Who am I to say that they really don't believe these things.


----------



## LynetteO

I work with a woman that has cancer & was due to undergo a double mastectomy day after tomorrow. She had to take a Covid test prior to surgery. She’s been being super careful because the surgery was already delayed once previously due to Covid protocol. Bless her heart, she just learned that her surgery is delayed another 6 weeks, minimum. The pre-surgical mandatory Covid test came back positive for Covid. I work right next to this woman every day & can say that she doesn’t have a single Covid symptom. I am quite familiar with all the Class A, Class B symptoms & Covid protocol for the public school system & this is 1st time I’ve come across an asymptotic individual that tested positive that has not had direct contact with someone else with Covid. She’s flabbergasted to say the least!


----------



## Catscankim

LynetteO said:


> I work with a woman that has cancer & was due to undergo a double mastectomy day after tomorrow. She had to take a Covid test prior to surgery. She’s been being super careful because the surgery was already delayed once previously due to Covid protocol. Bless her heart, she just learned that her surgery is delayed another 6 weeks, minimum. The pre-surgical mandatory Covid test came back positive for Covid. I work right next to this woman every day & can say that she doesn’t have a single Covid symptom. I am quite familiar with all the Class A, Class B symptoms & Covid protocol for the public school system & this is 1st time I’ve come across an asymptotic individual that tested positive that has not had direct contact with someone else with Covid. She’s flabbergasted to say the least!


We have asymptomatic patients come in all the time who test positive, just the same as you can test positive for the flu without being sick.

We have a covid dedicated OR. I thought every hospital did… I could be wrong. But I mean, if we get a trauma that tests positive, they cant deny them life-saving surgery.


----------



## paradisi

How awful for her, and you.

She obviously did have contact with someone with covid, she and they just didn't know it yet.  People can shed virus for days before they would have any symptoms. It's scary.

It's too bad people who are contagious don't turn bright purple or something so there'd be no guessing.


----------



## LynetteO

@Catscankim I don’t know if Spokane has a dedicated Covid OR but the area hospitals have all put a hold on elective surgeries at least twice since the start of the epidemic. Yes her surgery is considered elective. One reason it’s considered as such is because she opted to have the surgery in lieu of chemo & radiation due to her immediate family history of breast cancer. 



paradisi said:


> How awful for her, and you.
> 
> She obviously did have contact with someone with covid, she and they just didn't know it yet.  People can shed virus for days before they would have any symptoms. It's scary.
> 
> It's too bad people who are contagious don't turn bright purple or something so there'd be no guessing.


She said as much every day working in a public school. She was forced to come back to work because of 1st surgical delay. Any child that coughed, sneezed or had mask askew she feared she was doomed with auto immune disorder & unvaccinated. She wasn’t expecting asymptomatic positive case however. That was straw that broke camels back, so to speak.


----------



## cerelife

paradisi said:


> I do realize. And-- coming from a medical family with medical, police & firefighters as friends-- I don't respect choosing to disregard the safety of others, especially when based on politics.
> 
> The vaccines aren't experimental. It's shocking that you'd let that disinformation guide you.
> 
> You make your choice, you live with the consequences of having to find a different line of work.
> 
> Nobody forced anyone to take those jobs. But people in distress (wrecks, fires, heart attacks etc.) are going to come in contact with them.  What about  *their* rights?
> 
> As I said, I'm comfortable with workers in public facing jobs who won't get vaccinated having to either find non public facing accommodations if the employer has them,  or find another job.


1) I never mentioned politics in my previous post, so I'm not sure why you would bring it up in this conversation. ( Political comment deleted in quoted post above - against forum rules. )
2) I don't understand your comment of how you find it shocking that I would let this disinformation (that the vaccine is experimental) guide me, since I plainly stated that I'm fully vaccinated. Also this isn't disinformation, it's a fact. The FDA has only authorized the vaccines for emergency use while gathering research data with the concept of "the benefits outweigh the risks" mentality. Even now, only Pfizer is FDA approved with huge caveats in the approval pending more research data. I don't know how you define experimental, but here's an unbiased definition:
_ex-per-i-men-tal
adjective
(of a new invention or product) based on untested ideas or techniques and not yet established or finalized.
"an experimental drug"_
3) You are absolutely correct that no one forced us into these jobs. We freely chose our professions. But as I said in my prior post, there isn't enough money in the universe to pay us for what we've gone through for the past 19 months and still currently deal with every day. Add to that our staffing shortages...we lost a lot of great people (doctors, nurses, radiology and respiratory staff, EMS, etc.) during the pandemic. Some took early retirement, some decided on a career change, and we lost 2 people to suicide in my hospital alone. Now we're losing even more people due to vaccine mandates.
Those people in distress you mentioned - and their rights?? We're overwhelmed and understaffed so those people who need immediate treatment may not get it because of this situation.
I personally am NOT 'quite comfortable' with this because it's creating a huge problem with taking care of our patients in a timely manner.
I honestly wish that you could live in my world for just one day.


----------



## gww

cerelife
I do think you guys are heroes and most of you were tackling this way before there was any vaccine or treatment and before anyone really knew what we were dealing with and what it would do and that is bravery.  Pretty sure I could not handle that.  People should get credit for all they do.  Cheers
gww


----------



## melinda48

cerelife said:


> With all due respect @paradisi - We essential workers have been putting others' lives first since the onset of this pandemic. I'm a CT tech in a large hospital and as such I've been on the front line for Covid cases from the very beginning since CT is the preferred modality for imaging Covid patients. We were scared to death EVERY. SINGLE. DAY because no one was really sure how it was transmitted/how long the virus survived in the air or on surfaces/etc.
> But we showed up, suited up, and took care of our patients even though we were terrified of getting infected - or even worse - bringing the virus home to our families.
> We've worked nonstop through the pandemic while others got paid to stay home.
> I don't even know how to put into words how (mentally and physically) exhausted we are from constantly being vigilant against spreading this virus.
> In an 8-hour shift during the height of the virus; I had to suit up in full PPE on a daily average of at least 10 times. And then sanitize every surface in my CT suite while still in full PPE before I could take care of myself.
> This has been terrifying and traumatic and there isn't enough money in the universe to pay us for what we've gone through to take care of our patients during these unprecedented times.
> All of this to say that your statement is incredibly insulting to those of us who have put not only our lives - but also our family's lives - on the line long before there was a vaccine available.
> I personally am fully vaccinated, but you do realize that vaccinated people can still contract Covid and spread it to others, right? And since we may be asymptomatic, that makes us a little more dangerous.
> But by all means, fire all of the essential workers who refuse to be vaccinated with an experimental vaccine. I'm glad you're "quite comfortable" with that.
> My apologies if I'm not so comfortable with this opinion that seems to be growing in popularity in social media. We need help and I'll be happy to add a link to our hospital group's Human Resource "Available Jobs" page for anyone with this mindset who wants to come be exposed to Covid everyday with us.


I continue to be appalled at the reaction people have to requiring vaccines for those who have, for the past two years, put their lives on the line every single day to care for our fellow humans. They were good enough to care for you prior to the vaccine but are now lepers?
Kudos to all our medical personnel, kudos to our store clerks (those who made it possible for you to get you groceries when you were afraid or unwilling to trek out to the store yourself); kudos to the truck drivers who delivered our soaping supplies in a timely manner so we can pursue our hobby/businesses; kudos to the police and fire fighters who stand between us and possible disaster from many sources; kudos to our mailmen (letter carriers) who suit up and show up every single day to deliver our goods; kudos to the trash collectors who suit up and show up consistently and who have done so throughout the pandemics. Kudos to those who work in the factories that make our precious masks and who make the heaters that warm the blood and medicines for our transfusions. I’m sure I have missed some folks and I apologize.
If you choose/chose to be vaccinated, good for you. My husband and I are both vaccinated but do not judge those who have chosen not to take the vaccine. We have good friends who are not vaccinated; they are still good friends. We recently lost a good friend who was not vaccinated; we did not gloat or scold. We all talk about respecting each other and respecting each other’s values, lifestyles, choices - maybe it’s time to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. 
Everyone approaches life in his/her own way. To say that our healthcare professionals can be easily replaced is a ludicrous statement - just think about it - one cannot become a doctor or nurse or tech in two weeks for heaven sake!

If you have already had Covid-19 and have developed natural immunity, you should not have to be mandated. While both tend to fade away - no one has all the facts. Ready for 5 years olds? The test was done with 3,000 children - how in the world is that a large enough sample. they say “some” developed myocarditis - how many?

I don’t care if you have been vaccinated or not. I would hope everyone would see the benefits but there are many reasons not to take the vaccine - each is personal and, is frankly, none of my business. We have a 70%+ vaccine rate - good for us! I pray your life will be full and that you can go forward as Mac Bolin (the movie super-spy from the 70’s said) “live large.”


----------



## gww

melinda
Fellow Missourian.  Still, keep in mind, what is using the health care resources is ten to one, those who are not vaccinated.  There are billions of people having safely took the vaccine and so plenty of data.  Mandates are being done by policy makers right or wrongly to your view.  It seems to be a very funny hill to die on in a refusal to take something with such data behind it.  This is nothing like being paid in script that can only be spent at the company store but more like wearing a hair net if you work cooking a McDonalds.  Is that a reason that a person should quit their job over.  There is no harm to those but could be harm by the data to those they serve as most people recognize based on how many are vaccinated as well as how many commercial cooks wear hairnets.  

Policy makers world wide recognize and make decisions on what the data is saying and this is why travel is restricted and has steps involved to be able to do it.  Yet the complaint is by a few whos jobs are public facing.  Perhaps those few should just recognize what the whole world can plainly see and is acting on also.  Though it may not be the end of the world if it happens, nobody who is paying for a bowl of soup really wants to find a hair in it and this is not near as serious as what covid does to some.

Cheers
gww


----------



## AliOop

@gww Wearing a hair net has zero potential health effects. The vaccines have some extremely serious side effects for some folks. The exact numbers are unknown because our governmental agencies have been obfuscating the data. This only serves to increase vaccine hesitancy and resistance.

And no, the whole world does not agree about the efficacy or safety of the vaccine - not even close. If they did, we would not be having this conversation.


----------



## gww

AliOop
Because this affects the whole world, it would be impossible to obfuscate the data.  There is nothing being hid that can stay hid with so much of the world involved.  This should give comfort in what is know and not fear in what we don't know.  Nothing is perfect and I whole heartedly agree with an earlier poster who mentioned that if a treatment after the fact could be found we might handle this better but till then, it is what it is.  

There have been different reactions on how to go about tackling the problem which are being studied after the fact and assessed for effectiveness.  

Their may be some that are making claims of issues from the fringe that the whole world looks at and as of yet have not given credence to.  Those claims are out there to be seen and you must admit that resource world wide are big enough to investigate them and yet billions of people have taken the vaccine with out incident.  
There are people with medical conditions that can not receive the vaccine but these are also known and not being hidden.  

I have zero belief that this is a world wide effort to put one over on the common people.
Cheers
gww


----------



## AliOop

@gww What you claim as fact, I find to be fiction, and vice versa.

Rather than continue to debate our different views, we can agree to disagree.


----------



## gww

melinda
Technocrats like to have a study behind them before they jump. Makes them slow but maybe a bit more sure.
Nurses, doctors, technicians, etc., etc.,  Are still heros but they also still have responsibilities.  Heroes are heroes when they are doing things that are heroic.

3,000 children, the vaccine is safe (in spite of cases of myocarditis).  There were no cases of myocarditis in the 3000 case study but defiantly something to watch though the consensus for now is that with out the vaccine you have an even higher chance to catch covid and get it though that infection then if you were vaccinated.



> We have different opinions on this but we can still hang together and make great soap! Live long and prosper my friend!!



I may not understand others but have love for many other things then just one issue.  I don't win every discussion I ever get in to and so can not afford to be writing off people based on just discussions.
Cheers
gww

AliOop


> Rather than continue to debate our different views, we can agree to disagree.


You bet.  I have appreciated your help and though I put out views that I think are helpful, I am not the boss of anyone and in soap making am actually kind of needy.
I say what I say but not with the intent to burn bridges.
Hope I am not a one trick pony.
Again, I thank you for your advice from other threads.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Obsidian

melinda48 said:


> We have a 70%+ vaccine rate



We have a 47% vaccination rate in my county and people are dying. The hospitals are so full we are on emergency protocol, if I had a heart attack they would park me in the hall and let me die because covid patients take priority.
That ticks me off to no end, not only are anti vaxers being irresponsible by not getting vaccinated but they are directly causing deaths due to overfilling hospitals.


----------



## Relle

FYI for those replying on this thread. Any mention of politics will and have been deleted.


----------



## Catscankim

Obsidian said:


> We have a 47% vaccination rate in my county and people are dying. The hospitals are so full we are on emergency protocol, if I had a heart attack they would park me in the hall and let me die because covid patients take priority.
> That ticks me off to no end, not only are anti vaxers being irresponsible by not getting vaccinated but they are directly causing deaths due to overfilling hospitals.


The ones overfilling our ER are the people that come in with stuff that they should go to their Dr/Urgent Care for...toothache, chronic problems "headache x2 years", prescription refills, etc... My famous saying is "if they had to pay ONE DOLLAR to walk through the doors they wouldn't be here."

Sooo many patients holding in the er for rooms mostly because of nursing shortages. The rooms are there, just nobody to take care of them.

Our doctors have been seeing people in the ER waiting room and they put orders in. If it is just a head ct or foot ct, I can just grab them from the waiting room. All is good and they can go home. If it is something that needs contrast (aka needs an IV)....they would sit because a patient cannot be in the waiting room with an IV in place because we have had drug users leave with it in. So no IVs on pts in the waiting room. But I have started IVs on pts in the waiting room and took the iv out before sending them back, or if I see something (like an appendicitis or something that looks like they might be admitted for), then I will call the charge nurse or doctor, like "what do you want me to do with this pt, I started an IV, do you want me to pull it or do you have a room for them, looks like an appy".

Early morning every day we have a gazillion patients that check in to the emergency room that need dialysis. They don't have insurance, so they check in to the er, and they get their dialysis. We have our regulars. They sit and wait for hours to be seen. But they get seen, and they get their dialysis.

And I don't get it with post partum women. They get a c-section, then come in the next day because of pain. I dunno, I guess they had their babies and forgot to check the box "no dolor". But I was getting a soda from the vending machine one day and saw this one particular girl that really really looked sick. So I started her iv in the CT suite, intending to pull it out when I was done and sticking her back in the waiting room. I called the ER Charge nurse..."I really don't know what I am looking at here. Can you ask the doc to pull her images before I pull her IV?" She was hemorrhaging. Straight to the OR from there.

I been doing this since 1995. These past two years I feel like I am working in a third world country. I don't know who or what to blame for all of this, but this is really the craziest thing I have ever seen.


----------



## gww

Many of those nurses seem to be enticed away by pay for short term stints where there are covid out breaks.  Willing to travel, got money.  That is the nurse in my family anyway. She has worked in three different states in the last year and a half.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Obsidian

Catscankim said:


> The ones overfilling our ER are the people that come in with stuff that they should go to their Dr/Urgent Care for...toothache, chronic problems "headache x2 years", prescription refills, etc... My famous saying is "if they had to pay ONE DOLLAR to walk through the doors they wouldn't be here."
> 
> Sooo many patients holding in the er for rooms mostly because of nursing shortages. The rooms are there, just nobody to take care of them.
> 
> Our doctors have been seeing people in the ER waiting room and they put orders in. If it is just a head ct or foot ct, I can just grab them from the waiting room. All is good and they can go home. If it is something that needs contrast (aka needs an IV)....they would sit because a patient cannot be in the waiting room with an IV in place because we have had drug users leave with it in. So no IVs on pts in the waiting room. But I have started IVs on pts in the waiting room and took the iv out before sending them back, or if I see something (like an appendicitis or something that looks like they might be admitted for), then I will call the charge nurse or doctor, like "what do you want me to do with this pt, I started an IV, do you want me to pull it or do you have a room for them, looks like an appy".
> 
> Early morning every day we have a gazillion patients that check in to the emergency room that need dialysis. They don't have insurance, so they check in to the er, and they get their dialysis. We have our regulars. They sit and wait for hours to be seen. But they get seen, and they get their dialysis.
> 
> And I don't get it with post partum women. They get a c-section, then come in the next day because of pain. I dunno, I guess they had their babies and forgot to check the box "no dolor". But I was getting a soda from the vending machine one day and saw this one particular girl that really really looked sick. So I started her iv in the CT suite, intending to pull it out when I was done and sticking her back in the waiting room. I called the ER Charge nurse..."I really don't know what I am looking at here. Can you ask the doc to pull her images before I pull her IV?" She was hemorrhaging. Straight to the OR from there.
> 
> I been doing this since 1995. These past two years I feel like I am working in a third world country. I don't know who or what to blame for all of this, but this is really the craziest thing I have ever seen.



I can't even imagine what you and the other health care workers are going through. I know there is no way I'd be able to do it.
I live in a rural area, the closest two hospitals don't have the ER issues of bigger ones and very rarely drug seekers.
Many people do utilize urgent care, they are faster and cheaper.

I don't know what the bigger hospital ER is like beyond the covid patients. I know they brought in doctors and nurses from the nation guard to help.
The main issue is all the beds are taken, no place for regular patients and all elective surgeries have been canceled. 
Many hospitals are sending patients to the neighboring state and clogging up their already taxed system.


----------



## Quilter99755

Obsidian said:


> The main issue is all the beds are taken, no place for regular patients and all elective surgeries have been canceled.
> Many hospitals are sending patients to the neighboring state and clogging up their already taxed system.


I live closer to the Boise area and although the state has just now implemented no elective surgeries for all hospitals, it has been going on down here for a long time. I was a candidate for hip replacement and that should have taken 1-2 months to get diagnosed and have the operation. Instead, it took just shy of one year to get my hip replaced. By the time I was able to get it done, I was house bound and using a walker to get around the house. That might have been elective surgery in some politicians' eyes but to someone who could no longer function in their own house, I certainly could not call it elective!  

And now because of the excess of covid patients in our hospitals (mostly due to unvaccinated people) operations for cancer patients are called elective.  Heart surgeries are being put off. The message I get is that the unvaccinated take preference over any other medical procedure. Those of us that have been vaccinated just have to put our lives on hold and bear the pain. I know what I went through and cannot imagine what it would have been like to be told I had breast or kidney cancer, needed an operation, but just try to hang on until our hospitals are empty enough to take you. You don't count right at the moment.


----------



## Megan

Catscankim said:


> But I was getting a soda from the vending machine one day and saw this one particular girl that really really looked sick. So I started her iv in the CT suite, intending to pull it out when I was done and sticking her back in the waiting room. I called the ER Charge nurse..."I really don't know what I am looking at here. Can you ask the doc to pull her images before I pull her IV?" She was hemorrhaging. Straight to the OR from there.
> 
> I been doing this since 1995. These past two years I feel like I am working in a third world country. I don't know who or what to blame for all of this, but this is really the craziest thing I have ever seen.



You saved that woman's life! That's amazing

As for why women end up back in the ER postpartum...I think not a lot is done to educate moms on what is normal and what is life-threatening after giving birth. There has been a recent education program in my county because the postpartum mortality rate has been unacceptably high. Also, pain management for postpartum women is lacking...I personally didn't need pain meds after my C-section (other than some of what they gave me while I was in the hospital)...but I don't think that's really normal or that women should be denied pain management after birth. It's major surgery and there is a giant wound in the abdomen.


----------



## earlene

gww said:


> Many of those nurses seem to be enticed away by pay for short term stints where there are covid out breaks.  Willing to travel, got money.  That is the nurse in my family anyway. She has worked in three different states in the last year and a half.


Traveling nurses have been around for ages and ages.  I still get calls from headhunters to go work in remote locations who are in need.  (I've been retired a long time.)

My SIL did a stint as a traveling nurse right after my brother got his degree & before he got his first engineering job. It was decades ago, but yes, the pay was very good and allowed for an opportunity for the kids to see a lot of historical places they would not have seen if they had stayed put.

We had discussions in my family about whether either of us would return to the work force during this pandemic. Had either of us done so, traveling nurses would have been a reasonable option for serving where needs were high. Neither of us did, however, much to the relief of our respective spouses and siblings.



Quilter99755 said:


> I live closer to the Boise area and although the state has just now implemented no elective surgeries for all hospitals, it has been going on down here for a long time. I was a candidate for hip replacement and that should have taken 1-2 months to get diagnosed and have the operation. Instead, it took just shy of one year to get my hip replaced. By the time I was able to get it done, I was house bound and using a walker to get around the house. That might have been elective surgery in some politicians' eyes but to someone who could no longer function in their own house, I certainly could not call it elective!



I empathize with you on the delayed surgery!  Before my orthopedist diagnosed the arthritis in my hips, I was using a cane even in my own home and thought for sure I was going to need a hip replacement. Luckily for me, medication has worked wonders in my ability to get around and to be most-of-the-time pain-free. But if I don't take them for a few days, immobility becomes very real shockingly quickly.  

I was so glad that the hospitals had not yet eliminated 'elective' procedures in Feb of 2020 when I needed my cardiac ablation (which was complicated by the abnormal anatomical placement of my heart within my thoracic cavity.)  I was in San Antonio at the time and it was another month before suddenly schools were closing and masks were being mandated.  My husband was so worried about my health that he & I discussed if I should return home or not when granddaughter's school went to remote learning only, because his job put him in daily jeopardy of exposure and he didn't want to bring the disease home to me so soon after that cardiac scare.  He still worries about that because I on an immunosuppressive medication, but he retires next month and I know we will both be relieved.   Even though we are both very careful to take necessary precautions, we also know that we have been very fortunate in our continued health.


----------



## dibbles

FWIW, I had my booster on Wednesday. I had no problems other than a slight headache, which could as easily have been hubby related as vaccine related   My arm was a little tender to touch at the injection site, but I have had no stiffness or soreness when moving it. Both my original vaccine and the booster were Moderna.


----------



## Obsidian

Hubby and I both got our boosters yesterday. He was feeling achy last night and we both have fairly sore arms with swelling.
Not as painful as the jj but still bad enough to keep me awake most all night, otherwise, no reactions.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

I had my Moderna booster this morning. So far, so good.


----------



## AliOop

My friend Jessica was taken off life support on Saturday, and passed within minutes. 

My deepest thanks to all of you who prayed for her and for her family.


----------



## Catscankim

Another multi-emoji moment. I am sad and mad at the same time.

I am so sorry AliOop. Wish I were there to give you a huge (((hug))).


----------



## gww

AliOop
Don't take my thumbs up as happiness but as dumbness on my part and not knowing how to put a sad face there instead.  My goal in acknowledgement was to try to give some kind of comfort though I am apparently not computer literate enough to pull it off.  Sorry for your loss.
gww


----------



## AliOop

No worries @gww and thanks to all for the condolences.


----------



## Quilter99755

Sorry for your loss. This is a hard time for friends and family.


----------



## Dawni

My condolences @AliOop

If y'all think you guys have it bad...

Here - an actual third world country - patients are out in tents in hospital gardens. I've seen pics of them near the fountains and parking lots. They've set up wards in the hospital chapels and hallways, and they've taken over nearby schools (which have been closed for more than a year now) and gymnasiums. The government is encouraging people to monitor symptoms at home and only go to the hospital in grave cases.

And that's only counting the people who can afford to pay for their hospital stay. Those who can't stay home and wait to live or die.

It's that bad here. We hit a record of 25k new cases in a single day some months back but it has been getting lower now that they're reporting that the number of vaccinated people are going up.

In our case (my family) we're lucky enough that my sister was monitoring us the whole time, even if she was sick herself, and we didn't get much worse. She, btw, is head of one of the quarantine facilities of Red Cross here. She gave us an oxymeter and as long as it read above 95% we kept calm lol. Take note that all of us were vaccinated (Sinovac) except for my 4yr old and my grandma and surprisingly these two are the ones who did not get sick/show symptoms.

Between the end of September and end of October I lost 4 uncles - 2 due to covid, with only one of them being here in the country. The reason I mentioned him is.... We're also experiencing a shortage in medicines. Us cousins, to help his children, set up a group chat where we could all help looking for the blasted meds. One vial cost above 70k so that's more than 1500 USD and he needed 2. So we had to scramble between ourselves for the cash, and then my cousins just paid us back after. Thankfully he was insured and he had good health care so at least they were refunded a huge chunk. Imagine what happens to those who can't afford this.

His nurses and doctors are overworked, they are under paid, they have no more energy left to deal with difficult patients (like my uncle). With so many patients experiencing the same thing they're spread too thin so I don't even know if anyone in the hospitals are really being looked after as well as they would have been outside this pandemic.

That being said..... We're known for our nurses - they're everywhere lol - but we have awesome doctors here that we just don't export haha coz they earn enough here anyway lol and a lot of them are dying/have died too.


----------



## Susie

Catscankim said:


> The ones overfilling our ER are the people that come in with stuff that they should go to their Dr/Urgent Care for...toothache, chronic problems "headache x2 years", prescription refills, etc... My famous saying is "if they had to pay ONE DOLLAR to walk through the doors they wouldn't be here."
> 
> Sooo many patients holding in the er for rooms mostly because of nursing shortages. The rooms are there, just nobody to take care of them.
> 
> Our doctors have been seeing people in the ER waiting room and they put orders in. If it is just a head ct or foot ct, I can just grab them from the waiting room. All is good and they can go home. If it is something that needs contrast (aka needs an IV)....they would sit because a patient cannot be in the waiting room with an IV in place because we have had drug users leave with it in. So no IVs on pts in the waiting room. But I have started IVs on pts in the waiting room and took the iv out before sending them back, or if I see something (like an appendicitis or something that looks like they might be admitted for), then I will call the charge nurse or doctor, like "what do you want me to do with this pt, I started an IV, do you want me to pull it or do you have a room for them, looks like an appy".
> 
> *Early morning every day we have a gazillion patients that check in to the emergency room that need dialysis. They don't have insurance, so they check in to the er, and they get their dialysis. We have our regulars. They sit and wait for hours to be seen. But they get seen, and they get their dialysis.*
> 
> And I don't get it with post partum women. They get a c-section, then come in the next day because of pain. I dunno, I guess they had their babies and forgot to check the box "no dolor". But I was getting a soda from the vending machine one day and saw this one particular girl that really really looked sick. So I started her iv in the CT suite, intending to pull it out when I was done and sticking her back in the waiting room. I called the ER Charge nurse..."I really don't know what I am looking at here. Can you ask the doc to pull her images before I pull her IV?" She was hemorrhaging. Straight to the OR from there.
> 
> I been doing this since 1995. These past two years I feel like I am working in a third world country. I don't know who or what to blame for all of this, but this is really the craziest thing I have ever seen.



So much good and so much truth in this post I didn't want to delete any of it, so I bolded what I wanted to address.

ESRD patients qualify for Medicare just by being ESRD.  They can get dialysis for free. Your social workers should be on this situation with all hands on deck. That would mean more $$ for the hospital also.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

gww said:


> not knowing how to put a sad face there instead.


Allow your mouse to hover over the "Like" button to see a "pop-up" range of emojis. Click on the one that suits your response.


----------



## earlene

Dawni said:


> That being said..... We're known for our nurses - they're everywhere lol -



You sure are!  I worked with many RNs from your country and LOVED them all.  Fun, fun people and fabulous cooks all who brought food to the potlucks!  Excellent nurses, too.  Didn't want to forget that part.


----------



## Relle

In NSW we have hit 90% double vaccinated now.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

AliOop said:


> My friend Jessica was taken off life support on Saturday, and passed within minutes.
> 
> My deepest thanks to all of you who prayed for her and for her family.


So sorry @AliOop, I will continue to send prayers to her family as they work through their grief.



Dawni said:


> My condolences @AliOop
> 
> If y'all think you guys have it bad...
> 
> Here - an actual third world country - patients are out in tents in hospital gardens. I've seen pics of them near the fountains and parking lots. They've set up wards in the hospital chapels and hallways, and they've taken over nearby schools (which have been closed for more than a year now) and gymnasiums. The government is encouraging people to monitor symptoms at home and only go to the hospital in grave cases.
> 
> And that's only counting the people who can afford to pay for their hospital stay. Those who can't stay home and wait to live or die.
> 
> It's that bad here. We hit a record of 25k new cases in a single day some months back but it has been getting lower now that they're reporting that the number of vaccinated people are going up.
> 
> In our case (my family) we're lucky enough that my sister was monitoring us the whole time, even if she was sick herself, and we didn't get much worse. She, btw, is head of one of the quarantine facilities of Red Cross here. She gave us an oxymeter and as long as it read above 95% we kept calm lol. Take note that all of us were vaccinated (Sinovac) except for my 4yr old and my grandma and surprisingly these two are the ones who did not get sick/show symptoms.
> 
> Between the end of September and end of October I lost 4 uncles - 2 due to covid, with only one of them being here in the country. The reason I mentioned him is.... We're also experiencing a shortage in medicines. Us cousins, to help his children, set up a group chat where we could all help looking for the blasted meds. One vial cost above 70k so that's more than 1500 USD and he needed 2. So we had to scramble between ourselves for the cash, and then my cousins just paid us back after. Thankfully he was insured and he had good health care so at least they were refunded a huge chunk. Imagine what happens to those who can't afford this.
> 
> His nurses and doctors are overworked, they are under paid, they have no more energy left to deal with difficult patients (like my uncle). With so many patients experiencing the same thing they're spread too thin so I don't even know if anyone in the hospitals are really being looked after as well as they would have been outside this pandemic.
> 
> That being said..... We're known for our nurses - they're everywhere lol - but we have awesome doctors here that we just don't export haha coz they earn enough here anyway lol and a lot of them are dying/have died too.


thank you @Dawni , I know we take so much for granted here in the US and are not aware of the situation elsewhere. We hear the numbers, but have no idea what the circumstances are like.
So sorry for the loss of your uncles. That's a lot of loss in a short time.
What an incredible family you have to pull together to find medicine for a family member and what a wonderful example for your children.
Best wishes to you and your family as you work through your grief.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Well, we are recovering here. I was ill on my birthday, which is always fun! It wasn't pleasant, but the admirable lady and our daughter weren't too badly affected. Our son didn't even test positive. I had a very high fever for 10 days, so spent most of the time in bed (but could get up and move around, I wasn't bed ridden)

Two upshots - we now have the same status as vaccinated people here in Austria, so we can certainly ski this season if it is restricted, and in April we are hoping to fly to England to see my family and the timing works for that. The other upshot - I hardly ate for the 10 days so I ended up losing 8 kg! Don't recommend it as a diet option, but my wife likes the end effect!


----------



## Nona'sFarm

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Well, we are recovering here. I was ill on my birthday, which is always fun! It wasn't pleasant, but the admirable lady and our daughter weren't too badly affected. Our son didn't even test positive. I had a very high fever for 10 days, so spent most of the time in bed (but could get up and move around, I wasn't bed ridden)
> 
> Two upshots - we now have the same status as vaccinated people here in Austria, so we can certainly ski this season if it is restricted, and in April we are hoping to fly to England to see my family and the timing works for that. The other upshot - I hardly ate for the 10 days so I ended up losing 8 kg! Don't recommend it as a diet option, but my wife likes the end effect!


So glad you made it through.


----------



## AliOop

Nona'sFarm said:


> So glad you made it through.


Ditto, Gent - so glad all of you are better now.


----------



## Catscankim

I had a friend from Philly die yesterday of covid. There were prayers all over facebook for her all last week. She was more my sisters' friend than mine, but we all lived in the same neighborhood growing up. She ended up getting married to one of my very best childhood friends.

She was on a ventillator all week, which I know is not good as far as covid goes. They almost never get well from there. All the prayers on fb...I knew what the outcome was going to be.

RIP Dawn 12/5/21. Mother of two teenage girls.


----------



## paradisi

A friend, husband of a close friend, has died from covid even though he was fully vaccinated.  

That's three friends I've lost to it since summer.


----------



## Vicki C

My 5yo grandson in Seattle caught Covid - had been scheduled to get the vax two days later. My daughter and her husband, both fully vaccinated, caught it from him and were pretty sick for several days but hopefully are on the mend. Scary that they were vaxed and still got so sick. My husband and I got our boosters two days ago - I also got the flu shot. Amazingly I had no ill effects from either.


----------



## Microchick

Vicki C said:


> My 5yo grandson in Seattle caught Covid - had been scheduled to get the vax two days later. My daughter and her husband, both fully vaccinated, caught it from him and were pretty sick for several days but hopefully are on the mend. Scary that they were vaxed and still got so sick. My husband and I got our boosters two days ago - I also got the flu shot. Amazingly I had no ill effects from either.


Virus vaccines cannot prevent infections but do kick your immune system in quickly so the symptoms don't become life-threatening.  Thankfully your daughter and husband did get their shots!!  Terribly sorry your little man caught it before his shot.  Hopefully he is well soon!  And kudos to you and hubby for getting boosters!!


----------



## gww

Got my booster today at walmart.  Was a little surprised at the wait.  First got moderna and to day Pfizer.  Went hunting this after noon during extended doe season. Watched four little bucks for an hour.  Go figure.  I might have been sick as heck and it was hidden with adrenaline.  My five year old grandkid tested positive approximately ten days before thanksgiving but the fever broke in two days thankfully.  Nobody else in the family tested pos.  My wife got her booster two weeks before me but she is not quite the hermit that I am or as lazy.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Megan

I got my booster on Tuesday and my arm is still sore! Otherwise I am feeling well. My 5 year olds will get their first vaccine right before the new year...but with them in daycare I'm just hoping they don't get sick before they are able to get the vaccine.


----------



## Nona'sFarm

Vicki C said:


> My 5yo grandson in Seattle caught Covid - had been scheduled to get the vax two days later. My daughter and her husband, both fully vaccinated, caught it from him and were pretty sick for several days but hopefully are on the mend. Scary that they were vaxed and still got so sick. My husband and I got our boosters two days ago - I also got the flu shot. Amazingly I had no ill effects from either.


So sorry to hear. Hope all are well soon.


----------



## Cat&Oak

Got my booster last week and the side effects were worse than the first two but happy to have it. ❤


----------



## Vicki C

My son and his wife now have covid. They have an infant daughter, and I wish I could help them out by taking care of her but that’s not an option. Also, my DIL had J&J which does not work against omicron.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

Hooray for the South African researchers who did the research, John Campbell for his clear explanation of their encouraging study and T cells for doing their work!


----------



## TashaBird

Got my booster! I’m bivaxual! Pfizer for 1-2, Moderna for 3. Had a close contact with someone positive on Christmas Day, so I had to cancel all my work for the following week. Thankfully I didn’t have to call clients and tell them I’d been exposed, because there was no crossover. At least I got to make soap! But, it was stressful. Negative PCR test, and a few more days of feeling fine, so back to work. The whole thing is so exhausting.


----------



## Vicki C

TashaBird said:


> Got my booster! I’m bivaxual! Pfizer for 1-2, Moderna for 3. Had a close contact with someone positive on Christmas Day, so I had to cancel all my work for the following week. Thankfully I didn’t have to call clients and tell them I’d been exposed, because there was no crossover. At least I got to make soap! But, it was stressful. Negative PCR test, and a few more days of feeling fine, so back to work. The whole thing is so exhausting.


It really is. My adult children and their kids have all had it, most recently my infant granddaughter. They are recovering but the little one was miserable, had a fever, couldn’t sleep. Worrisome. 
Glad you are in the clear!


----------



## scmorgans

Mobjack Bay said:


> Hooray for the South African researchers who did the research, John Campbell for his clear explanation of their encouraging study and T cells for doing their work!



Thank you for sharing!


----------



## TashaBird

scmorgans said:


> Thank you for sharing!


That video was super helpful for my understanding, and hopefulness. I had missed it earlier. Thank you!


----------



## Vicki C

Mobjack Bay said:


> Hooray for the South African researchers who did the research, John Campbell for his clear explanation of their encouraging study and T cells for doing their work!



so encouraging. His video today was really optimistic too.


----------



## Catscankim

Today was a clean out my locker and leave day. I didn't do it, but I was close. It is so bad there at the hospital lately. I work in the ER CT scanner so I am close to all that is going on over there.

Our waiting room is packed 24-7. Our whole er is full. ppl are treating it like it is a covid testing site and lying about being sick, or even worse, calling 911 and getting brought in by ambulance, which they think guarantees them a room and a test.

They call and call and call wanting to know wait times...Ok, well we have ppl in the waiting room for 12 hours now if that gives you an indication...

People are coming in sick with real problems and it is getting missed. We had a 47 year old man go into cardiac arrest and die last night in the waiting room. He walked in with "throat pain". Turned out to really be chest pain.

Every nurse this morning was in the break room threatening to walk out. By the end of the day I was saying the same as a CT tech because I cannot run a one man show in a busy hospital. People are dying because the emergency room cannot keep up with all these patients walking in for non-emergencies.

Where normally we have 8 ER nurses and two medics, two CT techs, and three trauma nurses...we had 2 ER Nurses, no medics, 1 CT tech, and 1 trauma nurse. 21 beds full in the ER, plus all the hallways, and 44 patients in the waiting room.

I was walking down an empty hall today and the infection control nurse came out of nowhere and said "mask up please". SERIOUSLY??? Two years into it and three shots, obviously the masks aren't solving it.

All this woman does is walk around like the secret society of mask enforcers. She worked from home for the past two years sending out "stay safe emails", and now she pops up with no clue what goes on in reality, in an empty hallway to tell me to pull up my mask. Two years of this and all I did was pull down a mask for face id on my phone. BY MYSELF. I was in my CT scan room BY MYSELF putting a new sheet on the bed. This **** walked by...backed up to the door, and motioned for me to pull up my mask. I'm like FIRE ME FOR IT and hit the button to close the door on her.

Our pediatric ER shut down for almost a week because of a mass call out. It almost happened with our adult er last week.

I literally just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is a nurse at another hospital, it is the same situation there. The difference is that we are trauma. We have regressed as a civilization I think. Administration just sits around fat and happy. I asked where management was....they are all on vacation for the holiday. Well most, I did have a radiology director siting today. So I guess she was there. But I think her biggest decision made today was matching her heels to her outfit...

AND NOW...they started closing entrances to the hospital again like back in the beginning of covid, so there is only one entrance open. OK great idea for a looooong hospital. If someone is looking for directions to the cafeteria, I always tell them that its about a 1/4 mile down and make a right... My friend brought her pregnant daughter to there who was having contractions. She called me. It was an emergency and she didn't know the layout of the hospital. I told her to go to any entrance and tell them that it was an "OB emergency". Doors were all locked because some nitwit decided that this was a covid cure apparently. I had no idea they just shut down all the entrances again. I just left there and they were all open.

I told her to find the Emergency Room entrance and just start banging on the door. I'm on the phone with her an hour away trying to give directions from the location at the hospital parking lot where I "thought" she was. I called the ER charge nurse to let her know she was coming. They got her in and she ended up having an emergency c-section within an hour to a preemie baby. She was that close to losing him.

I worked overnight shifts last week. The girl who was at the clerical desk was like "oh god this woman again" when the phone rang. I'm like "I got it" and I picked up the phone. Its this woman who was out in the waiting room who somehow got the direct line into the ER who had been calling over and over and over. Mind you, there is literally no staff.

I put her on speakerphone so the cop can hear her. Her complaint: there is a homeless man on the bench with no mask on. "Don't you have mask rules? I saw your website and it said you have mask rules. He doesn't have a mask on and I want him removed."

OUTSIDE. THREE O'CLOCK in the morning for her 30 y/o son (inside in the waiting room) that was there for a possible std. I'm like "ma'am, he was just discharged and is just waiting for a ride." "screaming screaming cursing cursing". "MA'AM you can call the nursing supervisor with your complaint, otherwise if you call in here again I will have the police remove you" Silence.

Then she started posting on facebook LOL. I'm like...she's gotta fall asleep eventually LOL.


----------



## gww

Catscankim
I would like to tell you that I always fall back on the meaning in the serenity prayer but I know that not to be true.  I would be better off if it was though.  My nose has lots of cuts to spite my face.  However, since I believe in double standards and always told my kids to do what I say and not what I do, The serenity prayer might be better advice.  Like the old dirty harry movie points out (not saying you are a man) "A man has got to know his limitations."  Make sure you take care of your needs in all this as well as needs of others and good luck.
Cheers
gww


----------



## lenarenee

@Catscankim 

I'm sorry that I have nothing comforting to say to you. 

I think people and systems have broken to the point that desperation has set in. People are reacting. Grasping at straws in order to get what they want. Our medical system certainly wasn't perfect before the pandemic....but it worked far better than now with all the short staffing and other issues.

From reading your descriptive posts over the months, It sounds like you are an outstanding employee; and no doubt had a big contribution to the success and stability that has been meted out in your department. 

My perception is that this is happening all across the US...aka unnecessary ER visits due to people who have suspected covid symptoms and either panic, or feel entitled to a test because their can't get on anywhere else?  If so, then I have to ask where is the leadership?  Any leadership....a mayor, a county health department official.....anything?!  A hospital spokesman calling a press conference explain to the public when to seek ER services, when to monitor at home, etc.  

Is anyone, anywhere, taking the initiative to inform the public how to proceed? Yes, I know there will always be people who don't listen...but in our extended neighborhoods, we have people who trying to get tested before returning to work and other valid reasons, trusting any fly-by-night operation that springs up in the corner of a parking lot claiming to be a new testing site....and people who now think they were scammed for the ID information. Honestly. On social media, I finally had to call out an individual who kept telling people to come to their free testing site because she never identified who they were, what their qualifications were, what lab did the tests and if were they certified! 

 If I were even a small town mayor, I'd be collecting information and sending it out to my people in any format feasible....from posters at bus stops, restaurants, churches, fliers in mail boxes, phones and emails.   It's not happening in San Diego. (I don't count any little 5 second blurb at the end of a news item....because they are trite and un-detailed, and therefore lacking authority)


----------



## cerelife

Catscankim said:


> Today was a clean out my locker and leave day. I didn't do it, but I was close. It is so bad there at the hospital lately. I work in the ER CT scanner so I am close to all that is going on over there.
> 
> Our waiting room is packed 24-7. Our whole er is full. ppl are treating it like it is a covid testing site and lying about being sick, or even worse, calling 911 and getting brought in by ambulance, which they think guarantees them a room and a test.
> 
> They call and call and call wanting to know wait times...Ok, well we have ppl in the waiting room for 12 hours now if that gives you an indication...
> 
> People are coming in sick with real problems and it is getting missed. We had a 47 year old man go into cardiac arrest and die last night in the waiting room. He walked in with "throat pain". Turned out to really be chest pain.
> 
> Every nurse this morning was in the break room threatening to walk out. By the end of the day I was saying the same as a CT tech because I cannot run a one man show in a busy hospital. People are dying because the emergency room cannot keep up with all these patients walking in for non-emergencies.
> 
> Where normally we have 8 ER nurses and two medics, two CT techs, and three trauma nurses...we had 2 ER Nurses, no medics, 1 CT tech, and 1 trauma nurse. 21 beds full in the ER, plus all the hallways, and 44 patients in the waiting room.
> 
> I was walking down an empty hall today and the infection control nurse came out of nowhere and said "mask up please". SERIOUSLY??? Two years into it and three shots, obviously the masks aren't solving it.
> 
> All this woman does is walk around like the secret society of mask enforcers. She worked from home for the past two years sending out "stay safe emails", and now she pops up with no clue what goes on in reality, in an empty hallway to tell me to pull up my mask. Two years of this and all I did was pull down a mask for face id on my phone. BY MYSELF. I was in my CT scan room BY MYSELF putting a new sheet on the bed. This **** walked by...backed up to the door, and motioned for me to pull up my mask. I'm like FIRE ME FOR IT and hit the button to close the door on her.
> 
> Our pediatric ER shut down for almost a week because of a mass call out. It almost happened with our adult er last week.
> 
> I literally just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is a nurse at another hospital, it is the same situation there. The difference is that we are trauma. We have regressed as a civilization I think. Administration just sits around fat and happy. I asked where management was....they are all on vacation for the holiday. Well most, I did have a radiology director siting today. So I guess she was there. But I think her biggest decision made today was matching her heels to her outfit...
> 
> AND NOW...they started closing entrances to the hospital again like back in the beginning of covid, so there is only one entrance open. OK great idea for a looooong hospital. If someone is looking for directions to the cafeteria, I always tell them that its about a 1/4 mile down and make a right... My friend brought her pregnant daughter to there who was having contractions. She called me. It was an emergency and she didn't know the layout of the hospital. I told her to go to any entrance and tell them that it was an "OB emergency". Doors were all locked because some nitwit decided that this was a covid cure apparently. I had no idea they just shut down all the entrances again. I just left there and they were all open.
> 
> I told her to find the Emergency Room entrance and just start banging on the door. I'm on the phone with her an hour away trying to give directions from the location at the hospital parking lot where I "thought" she was. I called the ER charge nurse to let her know she was coming. They got her in and she ended up having an emergency c-section within an hour to a preemie baby. She was that close to losing him.
> 
> I worked overnight shifts last week. The girl who was at the clerical desk was like "oh god this woman again" when the phone rang. I'm like "I got it" and I picked up the phone. Its this woman who was out in the waiting room who somehow got the direct line into the ER who had been calling over and over and over. Mind you, there is literally no staff.
> 
> I put her on speakerphone so the cop can hear her. Her complaint: there is a homeless man on the bench with no mask on. "Don't you have mask rules? I saw your website and it said you have mask rules. He doesn't have a mask on and I want him removed."
> 
> OUTSIDE. THREE O'CLOCK in the morning for her 30 y/o son (inside in the waiting room) that was there for a possible std. I'm like "ma'am, he was just discharged and is just waiting for a ride." "screaming screaming cursing cursing". "MA'AM you can call the nursing supervisor with your complaint, otherwise if you call in here again I will have the police remove you" Silence.
> 
> Then she started posting on facebook LOL. I'm like...she's gotta fall asleep eventually LOL.


THIS...ALL OF THIS!!!
Our ER waiting room has been packed for the past 2 weeks - standing room only and people lined up out the door to get inside. Our top number so far was 72 people...just in the ER waiting room alone! Trying to get a patient for CT is like navigating Bourbon Street on a Saturday night, lol! 
And what is it with patient's ordering from Waitr, Doordash, and UberEats while in the ER waiting room?? It's hard to take your 10 out of 10 abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting seriously when I come to get you for your CT Abdomen Pelvis and find you shoving pizza in your mouth like you're the Cookie Monster.
I work both upstairs and downstairs so I do inpatients, outpatients, and ER patients. We had an outpatient call about her routine CT that was scheduled for later that day asking if she needed to reschedule because she just tested positive for Covid. YES!! Of course you do, and we transferred her to the scheduling line to do so. BUT she showed up for her appointment anyway!! She LIED to the screeners and to registration about her Covid+ status and actually made it all the way upstairs to the Radiology waiting room where she didn't disclose her Covid+ status to the receptionist there either. As soon as we saw her orders we pulled her out of the waiting room and asked her why she came in despite testing positive for Covid. 
Y'all ready for this? "Because this was a good time for me and I didn't feel like rescheduling." And THEN she had the audacity to be angry when we refused to do her CT!! Her logic was that she was already there and we were already exposed, so we should just do it already. Nope, we are NOT rewarding you for being a horrible person. Security will escort you out and you will be reported for lying to staff about your Covid+ status.


----------



## dibbles

@Catscankim @cerelife and any others reading this that are working in hospitals and health care settings - thank you. Thank you for working through exhaustion, with rude and entitled patients, and navigating the impossible days - over and over and over. The ones that truly need you are so grateful, and so are we who are not sick knowing that if we, or someone we love, do need you you will be there. I'm sorry for everyone that there are 'those people', and more of them all the time, who make it all so difficult for you and, to a lesser extent, all of us. You are appreciated.


----------



## Megan

dibbles said:


> @Catscankim @cerelife and any others reading this that are working in hospitals and health care settings - thank you. Thank you for working through exhaustion, with rude and entitled patients, and navigating the impossible days - over and over and over. The ones that truly need you are so grateful, and so are we who are not sick knowing that if we, or someone we love, do need you you will be there. I'm sorry for everyone that there are 'those people', and more of them all the time, who make it all so difficult for you and, to a lesser extent, all of us. You are appreciated.


I want to just echo this. Thank you to all of our healthcare workers who have continued to help despite how challenging people have been. I can't imagine the mental and physical toll it has taken on you all and I am so grateful for your dedication to helping people. I really do hope that things start to slow down, and that you get some type of respite from this nightmarish situation.


----------



## Catscankim

cerelife said:


> THIS...ALL OF THIS!!!
> Our ER waiting room has been packed for the past 2 weeks - standing room only and people lined up out the door to get inside. Our top number so far was 72 people...just in the ER waiting room alone! Trying to get a patient for CT is like navigating Bourbon Street on a Saturday night, lol!
> And what is it with patient's ordering from Waitr, Doordash, and UberEats while in the ER waiting room?? It's hard to take your 10 out of 10 abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting seriously when I come to get you for your CT Abdomen Pelvis and find you shoving pizza in your mouth like you're the Cookie Monster.
> I work both upstairs and downstairs so I do inpatients, outpatients, and ER patients. We had an outpatient call about her routine CT that was scheduled for later that day asking if she needed to reschedule because she just tested positive for Covid. YES!! Of course you do, and we transferred her to the scheduling line to do so. BUT she showed up for her appointment anyway!! She LIED to the screeners and to registration about her Covid+ status and actually made it all the way upstairs to the Radiology waiting room where she didn't disclose her Covid+ status to the receptionist there either. As soon as we saw her orders we pulled her out of the waiting room and asked her why she came in despite testing positive for Covid.
> Y'all ready for this? "Because this was a good time for me and I didn't feel like rescheduling." And THEN she had the audacity to be angry when we refused to do her CT!! Her logic was that she was already there and we were already exposed, so we should just do it already. Nope, we are NOT rewarding you for being a horrible person. Security will escort you out and you will be reported for lying to staff about your Covid+ status.



omg, 72 in the waiting room? 

When I was in xray school I was told to always make sure that you have the correct patient because they will answer to anything just to get seen. Since then I have never had that problem really...until now. I swear if I walk out to the waiting room and call a name more than once and nobody answers, SOMEBODY will always answer next. I start walking them back to CT and talking to them and checking their wrist band and asking questions....HELLO you are not John Doe. Waste my time, waste my steps. Now I gotta walk them back to the waiting room.

Haven't noticed the food delivery problem LOL. But they do usually bring their own food with them. Since McDonalds is the last stop before the hospital, the whole room smells like hamburgers and fries.

Today was really bad too, it was just more bearable since I had a good transporter.

Everybody wants to leave for these high-paying travel jobs. Personally I think its stupid. Yeah they get paid well...for now. These jobs arent going to last forever. It is eventually going to get back to normal (I hope). Traveling sucks. I did it a long time ago traveling locally. You gotta get used to a lot of different personalities and its only for a few weeks and then start over. Distance traveling....you gotta deal with housing etc. You never just go home kick your shoes off and play with your pet. So there's a shortage everywhere for people who want to just have a job and stay put.

We phone interviewed a girl the other day. She wants to work 3-12 hour shifts. We don't have that. That is not what was posted. She got pissy that our variable position posted doesn't work for her and *these* are the hours that she wants. We need evening/weekend techs. She wasn't even experienced and making demands on an interview. Buh-bye LOL. If she didn't get all pissy on the phone then we probably would have been willing to work something out.

I forget who asked, but yes we have a union. They are weak. Florida is a "right to work state" so somehow that makes everybody represented in our union whether or not you are IN the union. But I don't know why anybody pays to be in our union because like I said, they are weak. Throughout this whole pandemic, while everybody is leaving for these high-paying jobs and leaving us super short-staffed...the union negotiated that we could get a whopping $200 per extra shift. Well, we work 5/8hour shifts. So how many shifts can you do before you get burnt out and not give a crap about a lousy $200 at the end of the day? 

So now we have two techs that are reaping the benefits of a travel job that the hospital is paying them a ton of money to be there for a 13 week assignment. I believe they are getting $4600 a week. To break it down, after a 40 hour 5-day work week, we can only possibly accrue another $400 with our "bonus" by doing 7 days instead of 5 (unless you are suicide and work a bunch of doubles), but the hospital will pay this money to a traveler. One of them renewed his contract this week and the other traveler was like "I really love you guys but this place sucks". Oh, I forgot to mention, that they also took away our bonus a few weeks ago. Corporate, located in another state, determined that we don't need it, and it terminated in the middle of a pay period, after people already signed up for bonus shifts, that they are no longer getting a bonus for.


----------



## gww

MO was a right to work state for a short time but then it was put on the ballot and rescinded by the voters by a two to one margin.  Nurses however were knocked out of being able to be unions due to state supreme court saying they were management cause they could instruct orderlies.  We all know in the bigger conglomerates who management really is though don't we?

I hope everything gets back to normal for you or even better, better then normal.  Just maybe some good might come out of all this and some of the issues you speak of don't fall away but get addressed.  It is hard to say how it might all work out and worth keeping your fingers crossed.

I could not agree more with you that travel sucks and coming to the same home every night is worth quite a bit.
Good luck
gww


----------



## Zing

Catscankim said:


> Today was a clean out my locker and leave day. I didn't do it, but I was close. It is so bad there at the hospital lately. I work in the ER CT scanner so I am close to all that is going on over there.
> 
> Our waiting room is packed 24-7. Our whole er is full. ppl are treating it like it is a covid testing site and lying about being sick, or even worse, calling 911 and getting brought in by ambulance, which they think guarantees them a room and a test.
> 
> They call and call and call wanting to know wait times...Ok, well we have ppl in the waiting room for 12 hours now if that gives you an indication...
> 
> People are coming in sick with real problems and it is getting missed. We had a 47 year old man go into cardiac arrest and die last night in the waiting room. He walked in with "throat pain". Turned out to really be chest pain.
> 
> Every nurse this morning was in the break room threatening to walk out. By the end of the day I was saying the same as a CT tech because I cannot run a one man show in a busy hospital. People are dying because the emergency room cannot keep up with all these patients walking in for non-emergencies.
> 
> Where normally we have 8 ER nurses and two medics, two CT techs, and three trauma nurses...we had 2 ER Nurses, no medics, 1 CT tech, and 1 trauma nurse. 21 beds full in the ER, plus all the hallways, and 44 patients in the waiting room.
> 
> I was walking down an empty hall today and the infection control nurse came out of nowhere and said "mask up please". SERIOUSLY??? Two years into it and three shots, obviously the masks aren't solving it.
> 
> All this woman does is walk around like the secret society of mask enforcers. She worked from home for the past two years sending out "stay safe emails", and now she pops up with no clue what goes on in reality, in an empty hallway to tell me to pull up my mask. Two years of this and all I did was pull down a mask for face id on my phone. BY MYSELF. I was in my CT scan room BY MYSELF putting a new sheet on the bed. This **** walked by...backed up to the door, and motioned for me to pull up my mask. I'm like FIRE ME FOR IT and hit the button to close the door on her.
> 
> Our pediatric ER shut down for almost a week because of a mass call out. It almost happened with our adult er last week.
> 
> I literally just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is a nurse at another hospital, it is the same situation there. The difference is that we are trauma. We have regressed as a civilization I think. Administration just sits around fat and happy. I asked where management was....they are all on vacation for the holiday. Well most, I did have a radiology director siting today. So I guess she was there. But I think her biggest decision made today was matching her heels to her outfit...
> 
> AND NOW...they started closing entrances to the hospital again like back in the beginning of covid, so there is only one entrance open. OK great idea for a looooong hospital. If someone is looking for directions to the cafeteria, I always tell them that its about a 1/4 mile down and make a right... My friend brought her pregnant daughter to there who was having contractions. She called me. It was an emergency and she didn't know the layout of the hospital. I told her to go to any entrance and tell them that it was an "OB emergency". Doors were all locked because some nitwit decided that this was a covid cure apparently. I had no idea they just shut down all the entrances again. I just left there and they were all open.
> 
> I told her to find the Emergency Room entrance and just start banging on the door. I'm on the phone with her an hour away trying to give directions from the location at the hospital parking lot where I "thought" she was. I called the ER charge nurse to let her know she was coming. They got her in and she ended up having an emergency c-section within an hour to a preemie baby. She was that close to losing him.
> 
> I worked overnight shifts last week. The girl who was at the clerical desk was like "oh god this woman again" when the phone rang. I'm like "I got it" and I picked up the phone. Its this woman who was out in the waiting room who somehow got the direct line into the ER who had been calling over and over and over. Mind you, there is literally no staff.
> 
> I put her on speakerphone so the cop can hear her. Her complaint: there is a homeless man on the bench with no mask on. "Don't you have mask rules? I saw your website and it said you have mask rules. He doesn't have a mask on and I want him removed."
> 
> OUTSIDE. THREE O'CLOCK in the morning for her 30 y/o son (inside in the waiting room) that was there for a possible std. I'm like "ma'am, he was just discharged and is just waiting for a ride." "screaming screaming cursing cursing". "MA'AM you can call the nursing supervisor with your complaint, otherwise if you call in here again I will have the police remove you" Silence.
> 
> Then she started posting on facebook LOL. I'm like...she's gotta fall asleep eventually LOL.


Oh, @Catscankim , my heart is breaking for you.  Your anger and frustration and grief is just pouring out of my computer screen.  Props to you and all your colleagues.  In the last week alone, one co-worker called 9 hospitals before she found one to help her husband's angina.  My best friend called 4 urgent care centers for his husband's blood clot (hip to ankle), and an older family member is severely dehydrated (gastrointestinal issues) to the point of delusions and no hospital in town will admit her.  Is anyone tracking the death rate, not from COVID, but from, I don't know what the term is, a broken system?

I hope you give yourself lots of treats outside of work whether it's petting a pet, binging on Netflix (Schitt's Creek will cure depression), walking in the woods, ice cream.  Doing something with my hands takes my mind off of life, helloooo soap and lotion bars!

My favorite meme from 2020 was "When the pandemic is over, can all the essential workers quarantine while the rest of you all run the world for a bit."

Sending hugs,


----------



## cerelife

Catscankim said:


> I swear if I walk out to the waiting room and call a name more than once and nobody answers, SOMEBODY will always answer next. I start walking them back to CT and talking to them and checking their wrist band and asking questions....HELLO you are not John Doe. Waste my time, waste my steps. Now I gotta walk them back to the waiting room.


Yep, this has become a huge problem with us as well. I could walk out to the ER waiting room at any given time and call "Mr. Supercalifragilistic" and four or five people will raise their hands. Monday I called for (fake names, obviously) Ms. Huxtable and a woman said "That's me" and hopped into my wheelchair. Before I could even lean over and check her armband another woman rushed up and insisted that SHE was Ms. Huxtable, telling the other woman to get the hush out of HER wheelchair! The woman in the wheelchair (whose name bore absolutely NO resemblance to the name I called) refused to get out of the chair because "I'm sick and I need to be seen next." She hadn't even been triaged yet!! 
Why do people think that this is a good idea?? What if we as healthcare workers slip up in our exhaustion and treat you as the person you claim to be? Ms. Huxtable was here for chest pain and I was getting her for a CTA chest. The other woman was here for abdominal pain and no CT had been ordered for her yet, but eventually the ER doc ordered a CT of her Abdomen/Pelvis with contrast but she was allergic to iodine so it had to be changed to a non-contrast study. 
By answering to the wrong name just to be seen more quickly this woman ran the risk of not only having the wrong body part scanned but also of going into anaphylactic shock due to her allergy.


----------



## Catscankim

Zing said:


> Oh, @Catscankim
> 
> I hope you give yourself lots of treats outside of work whether it's petting a pet, binging on Netflix (Schitt's Creek will cure depression), walking in the woods, ice cream.  Doing something with my hands takes my mind off of life, helloooo soap and lotion bars!
> 
> My favorite meme from 2020 was "When the pandemic is over, can all the essential workers quarantine while the rest of you all run the world for a bit."
> 
> Sending hugs,



I made Strawberry Jam last week and brought them to work. They were such a hit that I just got done making more LOL. Who knew that 10 little jars of jelly would make ppl so happy?!

My sister just told me that my niece is on day six of quarantine from covid (not sick, just tested positive)...I'm like "that sounds lovely" LOL

Although after tomorrow, I have four days off. I told my boss that when she makes the schedule, that I want some time off, and I didn't care when or how, I just need 4 straight days however she managed to do it. I'm so grateful....

OMG, I was outside of the lobby waiting for my food delivery. The ER director was out there in green OR scrubs and heels trying to get an old lady out of the car. Gonna be honest here, I stood on the other side of the pole pretending to look at my phone LOL. Then I noticed that she was really struggling and had a somewhat unconcious patient...trying to get her into a wheelchair from a car. I don't know how this director ended outside with scrubs and high heels on, but it happened. I tried to ignore it as long as I could I WANT MY FOOD LOL.

Finally I'm like "do you need help?" All I kept thinking was "please say no. please say no....door dash is going to drop my food off on the ground like they did last week". She screams out SOMEBODY GET ME A STRETCHER!

UGGGGHH this is an actual thing

I run into the ER ambulance entrance and yell that we need help outside. I kid you not, everybody scattered. (food is very much still on my mind). I finally found ONE nurse who didn't hear me the first time and say we need help. She screeches....."I can't. I just can't. I have too much to do. Too many responsibilities. I can't. Just can't. I can't." and walks away. This is YOUR director!!! LOL.

I can't find a stretcher because they are all occupied because the ER is full yet again. I yell for andrew in trauma (he's the bestest), and he finds a stretcher and runs out with me to help the struggling director (who we all know has no clue what to do).

We are getting this lady onto the stretcher and door dash pulls up "JUST LEAVE IT ON THE GROUND!!" Now he's confused cause I lost it on him last week because he left it on the ground LOL.


----------



## gww

I hope andrew in trauma got some of that jelly.  
Cheers
gww


----------



## dibbles

OMG @Catscankim ! Enjoy your time off.


----------



## MGM

Report from a patient's POV: On Monday, our province went into semi lockdown and cancelled surgeries and procedures again (as of September, we were "20 million procedures behind" in a province of 16 million people. Dunno how many behind we are now). I had a throat biopsy scheduled for 6:30 am yesterday, so Tuesday was spent with my doc's office playing phone tag with the hospital. They were cancelling everyone else, but prioritizing me (is that good? bad?), but my surgery eventually got moved to 12:30 pm. NO PROBLEM I'll be there!! Well, I was pretty much the only one there. Rooms and rooms and beds and beds sitting empty; the porter said they were working at maybe 30% capacity; the nurse who saw me later said they were "shut down" (perhaps they're only operating at all until the end of this week?). Our town isn't in bad shape at all; never has been throughout the pandemic, and of course we want to keep things this way. I know we could be preparing for an influx of patients, but the people in Day Surgery didn't seem to think it was a good idea to take away all of their patients in hopes that they'd be ready for people to arrive in other units. Our hospital lost less than 1% of employees due to the vaccine mandate and I've not see a report of significant numbers out sick or quarantining, but we know that things are changing by the minute. Anyway, I had a great hospital experience and am truly thankful for the system and ANYONE who works in it in any capacity. Especially @Catscankim 's Door Dash guy


----------



## LynetteO

I’ve a Covid 19 test question? I’ve mild symptoms & after an online E-visit I was given a QR code to go into a clinic to pick up my rapid test. At 1st I’d thought I’d won the lottery because I could not find a rapid test within 50 miles for at least 3 days out. Anywhoo, when I went to pick up the test, I see it’s a rapid antigen vs rapid molecular test. 

The information & 10 free Covid-19 tests (5 kits) that I received from my regional health district & now the C-19 test kit I’ve was handed by my local healthcare facility are identical. They also both include documentation that say & I quote: *“If you have had TWO negative tests at least 24 hours apart, you do not have Covid-19 at this time. “*

Question: Why are these rapid antigen test being used if employers will not accept them? My employer doesn’t anyway. Is it because of fear of high percentage of user error, such as individual does not swab deep enough &/or follow the simple instructions to complete this home test? Or are the tests simply less reliable? TIA


----------



## LynetteO

Yesterday I got my Covid test question answered in a round about way. The school district is in a crisis situation with children & adults out sick & they now accept two negative rapid antigen tests for return to school!


----------



## Megan

LynetteO said:


> Yesterday I got my Covid test question answered in a round about way. The school district is in a crisis situation with children & adults out sick & they now accept two negative rapid antigen tests for return to school!


That's if you can find them! I don't know about Washington but here in notheast Ohio, they're selling out within 15 min of being stocked! It's so bad over here.


----------



## Misschief

I got my booster yesterday.


----------



## TashaBird

Found out yesterday my mom and step dad in FL both have Covid. Vaxxed but not boosted. Both with ALL the health risks.


----------



## dibbles

We found out yesterday we had a possible exposure last week. Hubby has had a 'cold' for a few days so went in for a test yesterday. Results today are negative, thank goodness.


----------



## LynetteO

Megan said:


> That's if you can find them! I don't know about Washington but here in notheast Ohio, they're selling out within 15 min of being stocked! It's so bad over here.


I’m quite grateful that I signed up to receive 10 free antigen tests from my Regional Health District & our local libraries are giving away free PCR test kits for every household member. PCR kits that you take at home & then mail into Everlywell Labs for results. I’ve already used one of those. Mailed in on Sunday & got my negative results this morning. Which is DAYS faster than the individuals testing at Mass Testing Sites in our area.

 We had to call 24 families regarding school exposure before 10AM yesterday! About half turned out to be fully vaccinated & get to stay at school. Still had about 80 absent (of 380)  due to


----------



## paradisi

In the USA: the USPS is live now with its site to order free covid19 test kits, one kit of 4 per residential address.  It's fast and simple.







						COVID Home Tests | USPS
					

COVID Home Tests | USPS




					special.usps.com


----------



## Megan

paradisi said:


> In the USA: the USPS is live now with its site to order free covid19 test kits, one kit of 4 per residential address.  It's fast and simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Home Tests | USPS
> 
> 
> COVID Home Tests | USPS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> special.usps.com


Just signed up! Thanks for the reminder, I knew they were going to do this but wasn't sure when it was going live.


----------



## Misschief

dibbles said:


> We found out yesterday we had a possible exposure last week. Hubby has had a 'cold' for a few days so went in for a test yesterday. Results today are negative, thank goodness.


Here, our medical professionals are telling us that a positive result is a positive result but a negative test doesn't mean you don't have Covid. *sigh*


----------



## AliOop

Thanks, @paradisi I didn't know about this program. Ordered mine today and will be happy to have them on hand, just in case.

On a different note, our state is rated highly in how it is responding to C19. Our one big drawback is that certain areas (mostly Boise and Couer d'Alene) have exploded in population over the last decade. They focused on building housing for the incoming migration, and thus are way behind on infrastructure, especially hospitals and roads. And it's not like you can build a hospital in a month (or a year) once everyone agrees that it needs to happen.


----------



## scmorgans

paradisi said:


> In the USA: the USPS is live now with its site to order free covid19 test kits, one kit of 4 per residential address.  It's fast and simple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID Home Tests | USPS
> 
> 
> COVID Home Tests | USPS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> special.usps.com




Thanks for the link! Just signed up even though I was just tested by our State - as Negative!! Seems like everyone in my State is getting it.


----------



## LynetteO

Misschief said:


> Here, our medical professionals are telling us that a positive result is a positive result but a negative test doesn't mean you don't have Covid. *sigh*


Oh My Stars!  That is not so great news. School was canceled here yesterday to extend the weekend due to “someone’s” predictions that Covid peak would be Jan 17th?! Our school is now doing “test to stay” in hopes to keep the kiddos in school vs out on quarantine all the time. 








						Coronavirus Disease 2019
					

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.




					www.cdc.gov


----------



## Basil

Misschief said:


> Here, our medical professionals are telling us that a positive result is a positive result but a negative test doesn't mean you don't have Covid. *sigh*


This is true unfortunately. Having worked in pediatrics we saw that with rapid strep tests. I did learn something helpful yesterday from an ED Dr. Since the omicron variant usually starts in the throat ( sore throat being one of the first symptoms) , if you do a home self test, swab the back of your throat first , then your nose as the directions say. It’s an off label technique that’s getting more accurate results. Always something huh? Lol Next time I do home test I’m going to try it


----------



## LynetteO

Basil said:


> This is true unfortunately. Having worked in pediatrics we saw that with rapid strep tests. I did learn something helpful yesterday from an ED Dr. Since the omicron variant usually starts in the throat ( sore throat being one of the first symptoms) , if you do a home self test, swab the back of your throat first , then your nose as the directions say. It’s an off label technique that’s getting more accurate results. Always something huh? Lol Next time I do home test I’m going to try it


Our school nurse just said that she wished she could move “sore throat” to a class A symptom because she too noticed omicron starts in throat.


----------



## TheGecko

There is a meme making the rounds.  On one hand it is satirical with its timeline, on the other hand it's sad in its truthfulness:







Of course, it has been 'fact-check' with a warning that the _Meme Does NOT Paint Accurate Picture Of Effectiveness Of COVID-19 Vaccines__. _ I usually ignore the Fact Check stuff because it's usually a bunch of male bovine excrement, but was curious on how they (the whatever powers that be) were going to spin it when you consider that when the vaccine first came it, it WAS touted as being 95% effective against getting Covid.

I linked the article above so you all could read it yourselves, but the last paragraph, though I'm sure they did intend for it it to, pretty much supports the Meme:

"_In sum, even though the science of the virus and our understanding of it changes over time, it's clear that vaccines continue to offer some degree of protection against COVID, especially when it comes to the risk of severe illness and death._"


----------



## Basil

LynetteO said:


> Our school nurse just said that she wished she could move “sore throat” to a class A symptom because she too noticed omicron starts in throat.


My daughter is a nurse and recently took a job with CVS as a tester. She's saying the same. So far, since Christmas, I've had two family members in different states, and 6 close friends in my town test positive. All of them said it started with a really bad sore throat. I'm nursing a sore throat now and am waiting for my results. It gets a little hard to be realistic knowing other viruses are out there as well and our immunity is probably down having masks for the last two years. However, the omicron variant supposedly knows no barriers. It's a sly one  I'm scheduled for surgery next monday and hoping I test negative. Otherwise, I'll have to cancel .


----------



## paradisi

Two things.  

Wearing masks does not impair the immune system. That's completely untrue.

And the vaccines were ~95% effective against *the original variant* ... but all the unvaccinated who contract covid give it a place to mutate into something that is more resistant.

So the vaccines we have currently are not less strong than they were; it's that by our actions (lack of masking, distancing, or vaccination) we've evolved covid into stronger, slipperier customers for whom we are going to need similarly adjusted vaccines. 

The vaccines we have *are* still enough to protect against death almost entirely, and severe illness, so they very much are worthwhile and effective.... nobody wants to die nor be hospitalized... even if they're not preventing infection itself as much by the newer variants.  Continue masking, distancing  and avoiding crowds, all those will extend the protection of your vaccinations.


----------



## Basil

paradisi said:


> Two things.
> 
> Wearing masks does not impair the immune system. That's completely untrue.
> 
> And the vaccines were ~95% effective against *the original variant* ... but all the unvaccinated who contract covid give it a place to mutate into something that is more resistant.
> 
> So the vaccines we have currently are not less strong than they were; it's that by our actions (lack of masking, distancing, or vaccination) we've evolved covid into stronger, slipperier customers for whom we are going to need similarly adjusted vaccines.
> 
> The vaccines we have *are* still enough to protect against death almost entirely, and severe illness, so they very much are worthwhile and effective.... nobody wants to die nor be hospitalized... even if they're not preventing infection itself as much by the newer variants.  Continue masking, distancing  and avoiding crowds, all those will extend the protection of your vaccinations.


Sorry if I made it seem that masks weren’t important as I believe in them too. I understand they don’t impair immunity. Usually I don’t get political on this for this reason. What I meant was because we are trying to protect ourselves so much, we aren’t exposing ourselves to as many other  viruses as well. Whether that be with masks, staying home, sanitizing hands, etc. etc. Having working in respiratory ICU, college health and pediatrics over 40 years, I understand what we’re both saying lol. I apologize for not going into depth and creating a misconception.


----------



## lenarenee

Basil said:


> This is true unfortunately. Having worked in pediatrics we saw that with rapid strep tests. I did learn something helpful yesterday from an ED Dr. Since the omicron variant usually starts in the throat ( sore throat being one of the first symptoms) , if you do a home self test, swab the back of your throat first , then your nose as the directions say. It’s an off label technique that’s getting more accurate results. Always something huh? Lol Next time I do home test I’m going to try it



I'd investigate that process more thoroughly before relying on it. One of my clients manufactures test kits and has said expressly that this their test kits are more often more inaccurate with this double swabbing techniques.  There are too many variable that affect the outcome such as when you brushed your teeth, when you last ate, or drank, chewed gum....etc.


----------



## Basil

lenarenee said:


> I'd investigate that process more thoroughly before relying on it. One of my clients manufactures test kits and has said expressly that this their test kits are more often more inaccurate with this double swabbing techniques.  There are too many variable that affect the outcome such as when you brushed your teeth, when you last ate, or drank, chewed gum....etc.


I totally understand, having swabbed literally thousands of noses and throats throughout the years. I probably should  and keep soaping. I just thought it was interesting, and impulsively shared. It's probably something I shouldn't have, knowing how things can be passed on. Thanks for clarifying!


----------



## AliOop

paradisi said:


> ... we've evolved covid into stronger, slipperier customers for whom we are going to need similarly adjusted vaccines.


I agree with most of what you shared, except that my understanding is that Omicron, while more contagious, is actually milder in effect.


----------



## lenarenee

Basil said:


> I totally understand, having swabbed literally thousands of noses and throats throughout the years. I probably should  and keep soaping. I just thought it was interesting, and impulsively shared. It's probably something I shouldn't have, knowing how things can be passed on. Thanks for clarifying!



I hope you don't think I was admonishing you; I meant to simply caution.  When I had heard about people swabbing throat and nose, and the reasons for it, I fully intended to do the same. The subject came up with my client - and he warned me that the technique shouldn't be relied on and why.

So in other words, we still have to use the antigen tests, but test more often and try to get a "majority".  (it's my understanding that testing while having symptoms is more reliable than testing before symptoms, but don't take that as absolute fact)


----------



## Basil

lenarenee said:


> I hope you don't think I was admonishing you; I meant to simply caution.  When I had heard about people swabbing throat and nose, and the reasons for it, I fully intended to do the same. The subject came up with my client - and he warned me that the technique shouldn't be relied on and why.
> 
> So in other words, we still have to use the antigen tests, but test more often and try to get a "majority".  (it's my understanding that testing while having symptoms is more reliable than testing before symptoms, but don't take that as absolute fact)


No, I didn’t but thank you. I had just heard that yesterday from a doctor who had just returned from a seminar and I thought it was interesting and made sense actually. But I really shouldn’t have passed it on . That kind of sharing has been part of the confusion and I shouldn’t have.


----------



## lenarenee

Basil said:


> No, I didn’t but thank you. I had just heard that yesterday from a doctor who had just returned from a seminar and I thought it was interesting and made sense actually. But I really shouldn’t have passed it on . That kind of sharing has been part of the confusion and I shouldn’t have.



It's so hard not too because we all want to help others out!  But, I try to keep in mind that we (science and medicine) aren't going to be good at dealing with the virus/pandemic until about 50 years after it's over when there's been time to analyze all the data.  Hindsight will be 20/20 decades in the future.


----------



## Lilway

Basil said:


> This is true unfortunately. Having worked in pediatrics we saw that with rapid strep tests. I did learn something helpful yesterday from an ED Dr. Since the omicron variant usually starts in the throat ( sore throat being one of the first symptoms) , if you do a home self test, swab the back of your throat first , then your nose as the directions say. It’s an off label technique that’s getting more accurate results. Always something huh? Lol Next time I do home test I’m going to try it


That’s what I did, with my own variation. I had Covid last year and it was a bit  different but similar enough for me to know what I was dealing with. This round of Covid wasn’t as bad as last year and I didn’t lose senses of smell and taste, except for a day.

This time, I started with a scratchy throat at the beginning of last week. Then a slight headache and low grade fever. The sore throat ramped up to where it felt really raw. My husband looked and saw white patches, similar to strep. The white patches went away by the end of the day or I would have gotten a strep test. I slept a lot and fever stayed in the 99.5-100.3 range. I only took aspirin a few times for the headache. My upper nostrils started to feel that familiar burning sensation I had last year with Covid.

We were able to buy a few test kits at WalMart. To do my test, I used a q-tip to swab each of my nostrils and then used the provided swab to rub on the q-tip. Since my throat was swollen and mucousy, and I have a strong gag reflex, I coughed into a clean cup and rubbed the swab in the cup. I then completed the test as instructed. It came up positive within a few minutes.
I know this isn’t the recommended way to perform the test but it worked for me. I waited until I was 3 days into the illness to test, in order to get an accurate result. I was doing everything I knew I needed to do (quarantining, supplements, etc), so test results wouldn’t have changed anything. Anyhow, I think testing the throat is a good idea and they have been using spit and gargled water to test with accuracy, too.


----------



## TheGecko

paradisi said:


> And the vaccines were ~95% effective against *the original variant* ... but all the unvaccinated who contract covid give it a place to mutate into something that is more resistant.



I am sick to death of folks blaming the “unvaccinated”. Viruses naturally mutate to adapt to their surroundings and more effectively move from host to host…doesn’t matter if you are vaccinated, unvaccinated, or have a natural immunity.


----------



## Lilway

TheGecko said:


> I am sick to death of folks blaming the “unvaccinated”. Viruses naturally mutate to adapt to their surroundings and more effectively move from host to host…doesn’t matter if you are vaccinated, unvaccinated, or have a natural immunity.


I agree. Most people are going to get this newer variant. It’s highly contagious and doesn’t care if you’re unvaccinated, naturally immune, or doubly vaccinated and boosted to the moon. It’s moving from pandemic to endemic very rapidly. That should give us some encouragement.

I’m more concerned about what has happened to people over these past two years. There is a lot of damage created and surfacing, and it will need to be dealt with. So many are living in fear and/or anger. Many are waiting for a sense of  “normalcy” to return, while difficulties still look ahead. I pray we can all pull back together and realize we all did the best we could, given the circumstances we were given. We will need each other. It’s time to stop placing blame and work on forgiveness and charity.


----------



## gww

I went to the lung doc day before yesterday and he told me the hospital was still full and 80% in there were unvaccinated and it was depressing to walk by all the rooms and see every one on a ventilator. Talked to the heart doc. last week and he was thinking the omicron might not give a strong enough or long enough immunity and there was already new variants in Europe.  His worry is that people are going to keep getting sick every few months and that that will be a real over all drag on them and people were not really built for that kind of stress.  
Cheers
gww


----------



## Megan

Why Viruses Mutate, Explained by an Infectious Disease Expert
					

All viruses mutate. But, what makes some mutate more quickly? What's a mutation, a variant and a strain? A UnityPoint Health infectious disease expert answers all.




					www.unitypoint.org
				




“Any virus will keep trying to change, so it can continue to spread. With all vaccines, the more quickly people get vaccinated, the better. The slower vaccination happens, the higher the chance of having mutations in the virus and the appearance of more variants."


----------



## TashaBird

TashaBird said:


> Found out yesterday my mom and step dad in FL both have Covid. Vaxxed but not boosted. Both with ALL the health risks.


Just following up, seems like the folks are recovering well. Thank goodness!!


----------



## gww

Tashabird
Stupid sad face should have been a smile.  Note to self, must pay better attention.  Good for you.
Cheers
gww


----------



## TheGecko

Lilway said:


> I’m more concerned about what has happened to people over these past two years. There is a lot of damage created and surfacing, and it will need to be dealt with. So many are living in fear and/or anger. Many are waiting for a sense of  “normalcy” to return, while difficulties still look ahead. I pray we can all pull back together and realize we all did the best we could, given the circumstances we were given. We will need each other. It’s time to stop placing blame and work on forgiveness and charity.



I think that most of us are suffering from Covid Fatigue or even Covid PSTD...I know that I am struggling.  I absolutely love my job.  I have a fantastic boss, great co-workers, have most of my clients well-trained, I make a good living, have good benefits.  Yeah, the 108 mile round-trip commute sucks some time, but if I need a break I can work from home.  I also have a fantastic husband  (probably should have put him first).  He never complains about how much money I spend on yarn or my yearly knitting retreat (he bought me a new suitcase last year so I would have more room for yarn).  He's been very supportive of my soap making and hasn't complained about the bottles of FO and jars of Mica on the desk, or the kitchen counter, or the new mold sitting in front of the microwave...next to a slab mold filled with a bunch more stuff.

About a month or so ago, I started hitting the 'snooze' button.  Instead of being the first one in the office, I'm usually the last.  Instead of occasionally working from home a couple of days a month, it's a couple of day a week.  My work is suffering and we're getting ready to enter our busiest season of the year.  I want to make soap, but then I walk into the kitchen and my soap cart is constantly covered with all the crap everyone puts on it.  By the time I get all cleaned up, I know longer want to make soap.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  I haven't touch my knitting in over a month, even a simple dishcloth seems too overwhelming.  I'm sick to death of "social distancing", "we're all in this together", "Covid-19", "fully vaccinated" and not being able to pick up a breakfast sandwich at Subway because they are out of eggs all the time do to 'supply issues'.  

The last I cried all the way home from work.  I feel helpless and hopeless.  No, not suicidal...just really, really sad.  I'm going to call my doctor tomorrow and see about getting a little pharmaceutical assistance.


----------



## Marsi

TheGecko said:


> I think that most of us are suffering from Covid Fatigue or even Covid PSTD...I know that I am struggling.  I absolutely love my job.  I have a fantastic boss, great co-workers, have most of my clients well-trained, I make a good living, have good benefits.  Yeah, the 108 mile round-trip commute sucks some time, but if I need a break I can work from home.  I also have a fantastic husband  (probably should have put him first).  He never complains about how much money I spend on yarn or my yearly knitting retreat (he bought me a new suitcase last year so I would have more room for yarn).  He's been very supportive of my soap making and hasn't complained about the bottles of FO and jars of Mica on the desk, or the kitchen counter, or the new mold sitting in front of the microwave...next to a slab mold filled with a bunch more stuff.
> 
> About a month or so ago, I started hitting the 'snooze' button.  Instead of being the first one in the office, I'm usually the last.  Instead of occasionally working from home a couple of days a month, it's a couple of day a week.  My work is suffering and we're getting ready to enter our busiest season of the year.  I want to make soap, but then I walk into the kitchen and my soap cart is constantly covered with all the crap everyone puts on it.  By the time I get all cleaned up, I know longer want to make soap.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  I haven't touch my knitting in over a month, even a simple dishcloth seems too overwhelming.  I'm sick to death of "social distancing", "we're all in this together", "Covid-19", "fully vaccinated" and not being able to pick up a breakfast sandwich at Subway because they are out of eggs all the time do to 'supply issues'.
> 
> The last I cried all the way home from work.  I feel helpless and hopeless.  No, not suicidal...just really, really sad.  I'm going to call my doctor tomorrow and see about getting a little pharmaceutical assistance.


PTSD sucks.
What you are describing is classic symptoms of pre-ptsd depression (depression is the wrong word - it's the brain going into protective mode and refusing to engage ... a bit like diabetes, it has flags, and then you actually have it) ... i offer


----------



## Megan

TheGecko said:


> I think that most of us are suffering from Covid Fatigue or even Covid PSTD


I know I am...
I am also sorry if you read my unedited reply regarding vaccination. I have been extremely irritable lately and it was unnecessarily harsh. I tried deleting it altogether, but thought that source was a more neutral reply with the same general information.

I get upset about all of this because I believe, or wish it could have been different if we all had acted a different way or taken it more seriously early enough...but now I feel like we're all stuck in this loop...and it really does feel hopeless sometimes


----------



## Lilway

TheGecko said:


> I think that most of us are suffering from Covid Fatigue or even Covid PSTD...I know that I am struggling…
> 
> The last I cried all the way home from work.  I feel helpless and hopeless.  No, not suicidal...just really, really sad.  I'm going to call my doctor tomorrow and see about getting a little pharmaceutical assistance.



I’m sorry you are struggling so much. I went through that as well early on in this mess. Try to find simple moments of joy and gratitude. If you can’t make soap, plan what your next soap will be. Plan some designs, scents, etc. Make your mind go there first and focus on something you enjoy.

There is a life outside of this virus. It not only affects the body physically but also emotionally and spiritually. My doctor suggested taking daily chelated magnesium lysinate glycinate, in the morning and evening. It made a big difference within a week. I still take it and others I know have had good results. Ask your doctor about it.

I also don’t listen to the news, negativity, or people trying to place guilt on others. I use reason and logic to sort things out. I made up my mind that I’m not going into panic mode or depressed mode for anyone. I pray you find joy and peace.


----------



## Basil

TheGecko said:


> I think that most of us are suffering from Covid Fatigue or even Covid PSTD...I know that I am struggling.  I absolutely love my job.  I have a fantastic boss, great co-workers, have most of my clients well-trained, I make a good living, have good benefits.  Yeah, the 108 mile round-trip commute sucks some time, but if I need a break I can work from home.  I also have a fantastic husband  (probably should have put him first).  He never complains about how much money I spend on yarn or my yearly knitting retreat (he bought me a new suitcase last year so I would have more room for yarn).  He's been very supportive of my soap making and hasn't complained about the bottles of FO and jars of Mica on the desk, or the kitchen counter, or the new mold sitting in front of the microwave...next to a slab mold filled with a bunch more stuff.
> 
> About a month or so ago, I started hitting the 'snooze' button.  Instead of being the first one in the office, I'm usually the last.  Instead of occasionally working from home a couple of days a month, it's a couple of day a week.  My work is suffering and we're getting ready to enter our busiest season of the year.  I want to make soap, but then I walk into the kitchen and my soap cart is constantly covered with all the crap everyone puts on it.  By the time I get all cleaned up, I know longer want to make soap.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  I haven't touch my knitting in over a month, even a simple dishcloth seems too overwhelming.  I'm sick to death of "social distancing", "we're all in this together", "Covid-19", "fully vaccinated" and not being able to pick up a breakfast sandwich at Subway because they are out of eggs all the time do to 'supply issues'.
> 
> The last I cried all the way home from work.  I feel helpless and hopeless.  No, not suicidal...just really, really sad.  I'm going to call my doctor tomorrow and see about getting a little pharmaceutical assistance.


I can appreciate everything you said


----------



## Catscankim

TheGecko said:


> I think that most of us are suffering from Covid Fatigue or even Covid PSTD...I know that I am struggling.  I absolutely love my job.  I have a fantastic boss, great co-workers, have most of my clients well-trained, I make a good living, have good benefits.  Yeah, the 108 mile round-trip commute sucks some time, but if I need a break I can work from home.  I also have a fantastic husband  (probably should have put him first).  He never complains about how much money I spend on yarn or my yearly knitting retreat (he bought me a new suitcase last year so I would have more room for yarn).  He's been very supportive of my soap making and hasn't complained about the bottles of FO and jars of Mica on the desk, or the kitchen counter, or the new mold sitting in front of the microwave...next to a slab mold filled with a bunch more stuff.
> 
> About a month or so ago, I started hitting the 'snooze' button.  Instead of being the first one in the office, I'm usually the last.  Instead of occasionally working from home a couple of days a month, it's a couple of day a week.  My work is suffering and we're getting ready to enter our busiest season of the year.  I want to make soap, but then I walk into the kitchen and my soap cart is constantly covered with all the crap everyone puts on it.  By the time I get all cleaned up, I know longer want to make soap.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  I haven't touch my knitting in over a month, even a simple dishcloth seems too overwhelming.  I'm sick to death of "social distancing", "we're all in this together", "Covid-19", "fully vaccinated" and not being able to pick up a breakfast sandwich at Subway because they are out of eggs all the time do to 'supply issues'.
> 
> The last I cried all the way home from work.  I feel helpless and hopeless.  No, not suicidal...just really, really sad.  I'm going to call my doctor tomorrow and see about getting a little pharmaceutical assistance.


I can completely relate. I am not even making soap much anymore, even though it really is my release. Been doing some gardening a little. I just get home and I am tired. Not even physically. Mentally tired.

The hospital is miserable. Its not even the covid really. It is the staffing. There are not enough nurses...or any ancillary staff to function.

I went to get a patient from the ER the other day. We have so many new nurses and they are all straight out of school because everybody is leaving. Anyway....this nurse tells me that I must take the pt on a monitor. I know they are short staffed, so I tell her that i will because he was stable, but don't get mad if another tech doesn't do the same. If a patient needs to be on a monitor, then they need a nurse to travel with them...

I get back to the ER and she comes rushing in asking if his sats are ok because he had a lot of drugs before I took him...When I got him to CT scan, the portable monitor was there, the wires were there....nothing was hooked up to the pt. I HOOKED HIM UP when I got to ct. Then she laughed about it.

I got a call from a nurse manager today who was complaining about our travel tech that didn't take something seriously. All I could say was "we need him, its only until Feb 12 and then we are short staffed again, I can't do anything about it. Let it go." She got all high-pitched freak out mode about him taking a patient that was on a cardiac med that he needed a nurse to travel with him. So I told her the story about the nurse that insisted that I take a patient on a monitor. Yeah, we are all in the same boat...

We have had now three patients die in the waiting room because there is no way to monitor them or know that they are out there for something serious. Our entire trauma dept is about to shut down because every single nurse in trauma has already signed contacts for travel jobs.

Guy came in for left sided neck pain and he was triaged as a 4 on the ESI level for a sore throat...he sat there for 6 hours. Later died from cardiac arrest because left neck pain was probably his symptom for a heart attack.

Girl came in yesterday...3 months pregnant. Abdominal pain...we get a lot of this so it was apparently dismissed. Ultrasound said everything was good with the fetus. Smart doctor decided to order a ct scan...complete blockage of the vena cava and portal veins. Such a weird thing. She died i heard. Out in the waiting room too long...but there are just so many people out there.

Everybody keeps saying that they are done, even new nurses, techs, respiratory, etc. I been doing this for 26 years almost but I keep trying to remember why I got into my career. And I keep reminding everybody the same.

Then you have regular stuff to deal with. Our midnight tech was out all week because his mom died. Everybody was pissed that he was out...two years ago the same people would have been like "take all the time you need".

I keep telling people that this is not going to last forever. It is starting to feel like forever...and its depressing


----------



## Catscankim

Oh, and then walking into work last week I found this love letter written on a plant...I wanted to just turn around and go home. Just had to remind myself that I had a house to pay for and suck it up and go in. It almost doesn't look real, but i promise you I took the picture myself LOL


----------



## gww

catscankim


> Our entire trauma dept is about to shut down because every single nurse in trauma has already signed contacts for travel jobs.


My cousin just went to another state on a six week contract for $8000 per week.  I don't know if it is part of the problem or part of the fix for this to happen.  It would be nice if this might drive up the wages a bit for people who stay.  

I do remember my working life and remember also feeling that though money was important, working conditions was right up there with money.  The biggest hope in all this might be that some of the stresses that are being highlighted might be forced to be addressed.  Fingers crossed.  

By the time I had 26 years in my job and living through all the changes that happened during that time, I was wanting nothing but to be able to make it to retirement and be done and I have been running from responsibility every since.  

It will probably not last forever and it is not all on your shoulders.  Do your best and do not feel guilty for things that are not your responsibility or that are situational but not of your making.  You deserve to be part of the equation and should know that it does not matter what others think when you know you are giving more then you are taking.  I hope this post helps more than it hurts.   Be proud of yourself and don't take the world onto your shoulder as nobody deserve that responsibility put on them.
Wishing you the best.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Vicki C

I’m so sorry for everyone who is struggling now. Fwiw this forum is a great source of comfort for me. I appreciate all the comaradery among all of you even though we are generally strangers. The SMF community is so smart, kind, generous, and helps me feel less isolated. Thank you.


----------



## violets2217

Basil said:


> This is true unfortunately. Having worked in pediatrics we saw that with rapid strep tests. I did learn something helpful yesterday from an ED Dr. Since the omicron variant usually starts in the throat ( sore throat being one of the first symptoms) , if you do a home self test, swab the back of your throat first , then your nose as the directions say. It’s an off label technique that’s getting more accurate results. Always something huh? Lol Next time I do home test I’m going to try it


I wish I’d seen this Friday… my 16 year old stayed home from school with a sore throat and low fever. After driving all over the place… found test. We both tested negative, but only with nose swabs. Everyone else in the house is feeling fine, he’s just experiencing his usual fall/winter allergy/cold stuff with no fever the rest of the weekend. I told him I’d test him again tonight to see make sure it’s safe to send him back to school.


----------



## Basil

violets2217 said:


> I wish I’d seen this Friday… my 16 year old stayed home from school with a sore throat and low fever. After driving all over the place… found test. We both tested negative, but only with nose swabs. Everyone else in the house is feeling fine, he’s just experiencing his usual fall/winter allergy/cold stuff with no fever the rest of the weekend. I told him I’d test him again tonight to see make sure it’s safe to send him back to school.


Unfortunately this isn’t proven so I was probably out of line to share. I hope you both get better soon! I tested negative too with a nasal swab. Finally starting to get better 



Catscankim said:


> I can completely relate. I am not even making soap much anymore, even though it really is my release. Been doing some gardening a little. I just get home and I am tired. Not even physically. Mentally tired.
> 
> The hospital is miserable. Its not even the covid really. It is the staffing. There are not enough nurses...or any ancillary staff to function.
> 
> I went to get a patient from the ER the other day. We have so many new nurses and they are all straight out of school because everybody is leaving. Anyway....this nurse tells me that I must take the pt on a monitor. I know they are short staffed, so I tell her that i will because he was stable, but don't get mad if another tech doesn't do the same. If a patient needs to be on a monitor, then they need a nurse to travel with them...
> 
> I get back to the ER and she comes rushing in asking if his sats are ok because he had a lot of drugs before I took him...When I got him to CT scan, the portable monitor was there, the wires were there....nothing was hooked up to the pt. I HOOKED HIM UP when I got to ct. Then she laughed about it.
> 
> I got a call from a nurse manager today who was complaining about our travel tech that didn't take something seriously. All I could say was "we need him, its only until Feb 12 and then we are short staffed again, I can't do anything about it. Let it go." She got all high-pitched freak out mode about him taking a patient that was on a cardiac med that he needed a nurse to travel with him. So I told her the story about the nurse that insisted that I take a patient on a monitor. Yeah, we are all in the same boat...
> 
> We have had now three patients die in the waiting room because there is no way to monitor them or know that they are out there for something serious. Our entire trauma dept is about to shut down because every single nurse in trauma has already signed contacts for travel jobs.
> 
> Guy came in for left sided neck pain and he was triaged as a 4 on the ESI level for a sore throat...he sat there for 6 hours. Later died from cardiac arrest because left neck pain was probably his symptom for a heart attack.
> 
> Girl came in yesterday...3 months pregnant. Abdominal pain...we get a lot of this so it was apparently dismissed. Ultrasound said everything was good with the fetus. Smart doctor decided to order a ct scan...complete blockage of the vena cava and portal veins. Such a weird thing. She died i heard. Out in the waiting room too long...but there are just so many people out there.
> 
> Everybody keeps saying that they are done, even new nurses, techs, respiratory, etc. I been doing this for 26 years almost but I keep trying to remember why I got into my career. And I keep reminding everybody the same.
> 
> Then you have regular stuff to deal with. Our midnight tech was out all week because his mom died. Everybody was pissed that he was out...two years ago the same people would have been like "take all the time you need".
> 
> I keep telling people that this is not going to last forever. It is starting to feel like forever...and its depressing


Cat, I feel for you. I got out the end of 2020. I have two daughters and a son in law in it still. ER Dr, RN, and respiratory therapist. I’m so sorry it’s so very hard on all of you


----------



## violets2217

Basil said:


> Unfortunately this isn’t proven so I was probably out of line to share. I hope you both get better soon! I tested negative too with a nasal swab. Finally starting to get better


No worries, it just makes more sense. But he’s the only one sick. I just took a test before work, just because. He only had a fever Friday, so it could be his normal winter cold…. But maybe another test tonight before bed will tell us more. 
Glad you’re starting to feel better!


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Lilway said:


> The sore throat ramped up to where it felt really raw.


In March, 2020, at the very beginning of the pandemic, I had several symptoms, including a sore throat. The doctor manning the phone line that night was an ER doc. He said, _"The virus lives in the throat. Gargle with warm salt water for 2 minutes."_ Worked like a charm.

Mix about 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon of salt into 8 ounces of  warm water.
Take a large sip, tilt your head back and gargle for about 30 seconds, Then swish the water around in your mouth, teeth, and gums before you spit it out.  Repeat for 2 minutes. If after three days, and you still have a sore throat, it’s time to call the doctor.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Lilway said:


> I also don’t listen to the news,


----------



## chigirl

TheGecko said:


> I think that most of us are suffering from Covid Fatigue or even Covid PSTD...I know that I am struggling.  I absolutely love my job.  I have a fantastic boss, great co-workers, have most of my clients well-trained, I make a good living, have good benefits.  Yeah, the 108 mile round-trip commute sucks some time, but if I need a break I can work from home.  I also have a fantastic husband  (probably should have put him first).  He never complains about how much money I spend on yarn or my yearly knitting retreat (he bought me a new suitcase last year so I would have more room for yarn).  He's been very supportive of my soap making and hasn't complained about the bottles of FO and jars of Mica on the desk, or the kitchen counter, or the new mold sitting in front of the microwave...next to a slab mold filled with a bunch more stuff.
> 
> About a month or so ago, I started hitting the 'snooze' button.  Instead of being the first one in the office, I'm usually the last.  Instead of occasionally working from home a couple of days a month, it's a couple of day a week.  My work is suffering and we're getting ready to enter our busiest season of the year.  I want to make soap, but then I walk into the kitchen and my soap cart is constantly covered with all the crap everyone puts on it.  By the time I get all cleaned up, I know longer want to make soap.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  I haven't touch my knitting in over a month, even a simple dishcloth seems too overwhelming.  I'm sick to death of "social distancing", "we're all in this together", "Covid-19", "fully vaccinated" and not being able to pick up a breakfast sandwich at Subway because they are out of eggs all the time do to 'supply issues'.
> 
> The last I cried all the way home from work.  I feel helpless and hopeless.  No, not suicidal...just really, really sad.  I'm going to call my doctor tomorrow and see about getting a little pharmaceutical assistance.


Hugs to you my friend.  LTC RN here. Lost 37 last year and I understand.


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## cerelife

Catscankim said:


> I can completely relate. I am not even making soap much anymore, even though it really is my release. Been doing some gardening a little. I just get home and I am tired. Not even physically. Mentally tired.
> 
> The hospital is miserable. Its not even the covid really. It is the staffing. There are not enough nurses...or any ancillary staff to function.
> 
> I went to get a patient from the ER the other day. We have so many new nurses and they are all straight out of school because everybody is leaving. Anyway....this nurse tells me that I must take the pt on a monitor. I know they are short staffed, so I tell her that i will because he was stable, but don't get mad if another tech doesn't do the same. If a patient needs to be on a monitor, then they need a nurse to travel with them...
> 
> I get back to the ER and she comes rushing in asking if his sats are ok because he had a lot of drugs before I took him...When I got him to CT scan, the portable monitor was there, the wires were there....nothing was hooked up to the pt. I HOOKED HIM UP when I got to ct. Then she laughed about it.
> 
> I got a call from a nurse manager today who was complaining about our travel tech that didn't take something seriously. All I could say was "we need him, its only until Feb 12 and then we are short staffed again, I can't do anything about it. Let it go." She got all high-pitched freak out mode about him taking a patient that was on a cardiac med that he needed a nurse to travel with him. So I told her the story about the nurse that insisted that I take a patient on a monitor. Yeah, we are all in the same boat...
> 
> We have had now three patients die in the waiting room because there is no way to monitor them or know that they are out there for something serious. Our entire trauma dept is about to shut down because every single nurse in trauma has already signed contacts for travel jobs.
> 
> Guy came in for left sided neck pain and he was triaged as a 4 on the ESI level for a sore throat...he sat there for 6 hours. Later died from cardiac arrest because left neck pain was probably his symptom for a heart attack.
> 
> Girl came in yesterday...3 months pregnant. Abdominal pain...we get a lot of this so it was apparently dismissed. Ultrasound said everything was good with the fetus. Smart doctor decided to order a ct scan...complete blockage of the vena cava and portal veins. Such a weird thing. She died i heard. Out in the waiting room too long...but there are just so many people out there.
> 
> Everybody keeps saying that they are done, even new nurses, techs, respiratory, etc. I been doing this for 26 years almost but I keep trying to remember why I got into my career. And I keep reminding everybody the same.
> 
> Then you have regular stuff to deal with. Our midnight tech was out all week because his mom died. Everybody was pissed that he was out...two years ago the same people would have been like "take all the time you need".
> 
> I keep telling people that this is not going to last forever. It is starting to feel like forever...and its depressing


Aside from the current staffing shortages, Covid has recently been ripping through staff causing even more shortages. The current policy is that staff return to work after a 5 day quarantine. I tested positive week before last and while I might not have been contagious after 5 days, I still felt like crap. But I came back to work on day six because we don't have enough people to go around. Heck, I even pulled extra hours because of the shortage even though I felt horrible. But as you well know, that's just what we do. It's incredibly frustrating to have the ER packed with people with minor complaints clogging up the system and keeping the real emergencies waiting. I swear it was all I could do to keep my patience last week with all of the patients I had to go get from the ER waiting room for whom the ER docs ordered CTA chests because "I tested positive for Covid last week and I still don't feel good." but they're satting 100% on room air.
And last Friday I worked an 11 hour shift with a 7 hour turnaround so 5 hours sleep between shifts. After 4pm there were only 2 CT techs in the hospital - me upstairs and another tech in the ER (who was supposed to leave at 6pm). I was about to get an inpatient for a post tPa Head when they called a Code Stroke upstairs. The neurologist wanted the full deal: CTA head/neck, perfusion study so by the time I was done with that, I was running downstairs to take over for the tech that was leaving since the ER had blown up. When the night shift tech came in at 7pm (when I was leaving) I told her about the post-tPa scan, saying it needed to be done as soon as possible she just rolled her eyes (as is her usual practice).
So I come in to work today and immediately I'm questioned about why I didn't do this post-tPa exam. As it turns out they were just looking for verification to deal with the night shift tech. At first she said she didn't have time to do the scan and then when they looked at the numbers and saw she had over 4 hours of downtime she said that it was ordered on my shift and if I couldn't be bothered to do it then neither could she. REALLY??? But you still question me??
I don't have your 26 years yet - it's 18 for me - but I'm almost done. I'm exhausted physically, mentally, and emotionally. It's hard to keep on keeping on when we have to deal with all of this AND the anger and nastiness from patients for not being able to be everywhere at once. We're doing our best.


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## Littleone68

Hugs and prayers to all of you dealing with this on the front lines.  I wish people would realize that this is the rwal issue with this virus.  Yes, the death rate from the virus isn’t very high but it isn’t those who have died putting the burden in the healthcare system.  I am 30+ years in laboratory and dealing with back side with testing.  We are at full capacity. Luckily, we are also full staff.  Not true for many, many labs.  Stay brave frontline warriors!


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## TheGecko

I love my older sister and she has a generous heart, but Covid has made her selfish and stupid.  Due to an incident about six months after Covid started in which she failed to tell me that she was socializing with friends without masks and distance (she couldn’t understand why I was upset)…I started keeping my distance from her.  I had been meaning to stop over the past couple of weeks…glad I didn’t as they are just now starting to recover from Covid.

Their son, who has a place on their property came down with it first, then gave it to his Dad, who then gave to my sister, who then gave it to a friend. So this is where I get really pissed off…she claims they didn’t know it was Covid because they didn’t have any of the usual symptoms…just sore throats***. And with two people sick and a tickle in her throat, she hung out with her friend. When her friend came down sick, she got tested and she called my sister to warn her. And found out that sister and her family already had it. When I mentioned the symptom of Omicron was sore throats, her response was “Whatever. How was I supposed to know?” “You watch the news every night don’t you?”

She then asked me if I had ordered any test kits from the government. I said, “Yes, when they first became available. Just got an email that they will be delivered next week. Why?” “Everyone needs to test before coming to the crafting weekend and mine won’t be here in time so you can give me yours. Let me know when they come in and I’ll come over and picked them up.” “Uh…no you won’t. I’ll be in town next Saturday and will put it in your mail box.” 

*** - None of us has had a sore throat since we had our tonsils out 50 years ago.


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## DKing

My daughter recently got over covid and i was concerned I might also get it since I was with her all day on her sickest day.  I assumed she was feeling off due to being pregnant and under a lot of stress and I didn't even consider it could be covid.  Fortunately it has been 2 weeks now and i feel totally fine.  Her boyfriend died 3 weeks ago and with all of the people that came to pay their respects, social distancing went out the window and covid was inevitable.   We were concerned due to hearing covid can be worse for pregnant women, but she recovered fast and it was relatively mild.  Her symptoms were headache and bad body/bone aches and a fever of 101 for one day, then she improved quickly but got an ear infection a couple of days later.  She has no lingering symptoms.


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## LynetteO

I’m in full blown menopause & these recent posts are causing my tear factory to kick on. @cerelife sending you some HUGE  & sure wish I could send you a clone of yourself for a much needed vacation for yourself. @TheGecko Enjoy your craft day & try to resist the temptation to glue your sister to her seat.  JK of course. @DKing I am praying for your daughter & am so sorry to hear about the passing of her boyfriend. On a positive note. The attendance numbers & number of students testing + for Covid are definitely better late last week & so he start of this week.


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## Misschief

DKing said:


> My daughter recently got over covid and i was concerned I might also get it since I was with her all day on her sickest day.  I assumed she was feeling off due to being pregnant and under a lot of stress and I didn't even consider it could be covid.  Fortunately it has been 2 weeks now and i feel totally fine.  Her boyfriend died 3 weeks ago and with all of the people that came to pay their respects, social distancing went out the window and covid was inevitable.   We were concerned due to hearing covid can be worse for pregnant women, but she recovered fast and it was relatively mild.  Her symptoms were headache and bad body/bone aches and a fever of 101 for one day, then she improved quickly but got an ear infection a couple of days later.  She has no lingering symptoms.



@DKing, there's so much in your post! I've been wondering how things were going with you; you've been on my mind off and on for the past couple of weeks. First, congratulations on the upcoming addition to your family. When is the baby due? I hope all continues to go well with the pregnancy and that the little one will be surrounded with all the love and joy it needs (I know it will!). Second, I'm glad your daughter is recovering. A couple of the girls I work with have just gone through it and both were sick for a good two weeks (they work in our production shop, not in the sales center where I work, thankfully); one of them started with an ear infection and it progressed from there. 

I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter's boyfriend. How hard that must be for your daughter!  Seeing that baby will bring it home day after day and I'm sure it will be bittersweet for her and for you. I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers and if you ever want to meet for coffee again, let me know.


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## TheGecko

LynetteO said:


> @TheGecko Enjoy your craft day & try to resist the temptation to glue your sister to her seat. JK of course



I try to be respectful of everyone whether I agree with them or not, I just want the same in return.


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## DKing

Misschief said:


> @DKing, there's so much in your post! I've been wondering how things were going with you; you've been on my mind off and on for the past couple of weeks. First, congratulations on the upcoming addition to your family. When is the baby due? I hope all continues to go well with the pregnancy and that the little one will be surrounded with all the love and joy it needs (I know it will!). Second, I'm glad your daughter is recovering. A couple of the girls I work with have just gone through it and both were sick for a good two weeks (they work in our production shop, not in the sales center where I work, thankfully); one of them started with an ear infection and it progressed from there.
> 
> I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter's boyfriend. How hard that must be for your daughter!  Seeing that baby will bring it home day after day and I'm sure it will be bittersweet for her and for you. I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers and if you ever want to meet for coffee again, let me know.


It has been one wave after another with stressful events in our family (including parents and siblings) for the last half year, that the world is starting to feel quite ominous.  I keep wondering what is next.  I really hope that the tide starts turning in our favor now because we are due some happy times.  The good thing is, Britt is doing fine health wise now.  She had an ultrasound a few days ago and baby is progressing normally so far, so she is excited.  She brought Matt's best friend to the ultrasound, which I think is as close as she could feel to Matt being there with her.  The first week for her was extremely hard, but she is finding her feet again and adjusting to life without him as best as she can.  I think it helps that she does have the baby coming as she feels as she hasn't lost Matt completely.  They have a very strong community of friends, plus ours and his family, so I think she will be fine but it won't be the same experience for her as she was expecting.  I am sure she will have some very hard days during this pregnancy when he isn't there for all the little things.  She has never been really sure about her feelings of what comes after someone passes, but she had some really strong "signs" that gave her hope he is out there somewhere and trying to let her know he was alright.  That has brought her some comfort, so I am glad for that.  
Baby is due at the end of August to beginning of September. It is still very new really.  I think they had only known for a couple of weeks that Britt was pregnant and they were nervously excited.  
We should most definitely get together for coffee again soon.  I am going away next weekend for a few days to sleep in a tent on a frozen lake, but after that I am free pretty much anytime.


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## ghoshsmita

cerelife said:


> Aside from the current staffing shortages, Covid has recently been ripping through staff causing even more shortages. The current policy is that staff return to work after a 5 day quarantine. I tested positive week before last and while I might not have been contagious after 5 days, I still felt like crap. But I came back to work on day six because we don't have enough people to go around. Heck, I even pulled extra hours because of the shortage even though I felt horrible. But as you well know, that's just what we do. It's incredibly frustrating to have the ER packed with people with minor complaints clogging up the system and keeping the real emergencies waiting. I swear it was all I could do to keep my patience last week with all of the patients I had to go get from the ER waiting room for whom the ER docs ordered CTA chests because "I tested positive for Covid last week and I still don't feel good." but they're satting 100% on room air.
> And last Friday I worked an 11 hour shift with a 7 hour turnaround so 5 hours sleep between shifts. After 4pm there were only 2 CT techs in the hospital - me upstairs and another tech in the ER (who was supposed to leave at 6pm). I was about to get an inpatient for a post tPa Head when they called a Code Stroke upstairs. The neurologist wanted the full deal: CTA head/neck, perfusion study so by the time I was done with that, I was running downstairs to take over for the tech that was leaving since the ER had blown up. When the night shift tech came in at 7pm (when I was leaving) I told her about the post-tPa scan, saying it needed to be done as soon as possible she just rolled her eyes (as is her usual practice).
> So I come in to work today and immediately I'm questioned about why I didn't do this post-tPa exam. As it turns out they were just looking for verification to deal with the night shift tech. At first she said she didn't have time to do the scan and then when they looked at the numbers and saw she had over 4 hours of downtime she said that it was ordered on my shift and if I couldn't be bothered to do it then neither could she. REALLY??? But you still question me??
> I don't have your 26 years yet - it's 18 for me - but I'm almost done. I'm exhausted physically, mentally, and emotionally. It's hard to keep on keeping on when we have to deal with all of this AND the anger and nastiness from patients for not being able to be everywhere at once. We're doing our best.


It is because of you & people like you that we are still in a better off place than we could have been due to the Pandemic. 
I can't help you with your challenges, but, know that we really appreciate people like you. I live in an entirely different continent, but thank you from the bottom of my heart for helping save lives


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## AliOop

I work in a field with a lot of acronyms, and I heard a new one yesterday: PARD

pandemic adaptive response disorder

It is considered highly contagious, long-lasting, and ranges from mild to severe. Best antidotes are reported to be:

• sunshine for at least 30 mins per day,
• gentle exercise, 
• uplifting music,
• calming spiritual practices, and 
• limited exposure to news reports (every three days max, only scan headlines for 10 minutes)


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## Zany_in_CO

AliOop said:


> I work in a field with a lot of acronyms, and I heard a new one yesterday: PARD


Love it!!! Thanks for sharing!


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## TheGecko

Just off the phone with my sister…she had just gotten up as she had to go the the ER in the wee hours.  Gall Bladder attack.  And she tested positive for Covid.  And then proceeded to argue with me about the test results because she didn’t have a fever and you can’t have Covid without a fever.  She knows this because every time she had seen her doctors, it’s the first question they ask.  I told her, not every has a high fever or realizes that they have a fever.  “Well, THEY should tell you that.”  SIGH…they do, but apparently you only hear what you want to hear.

Then she starts whining about not being able to see the surgeon until the 22nd…providing she tests negative, Asked me if I got my kits and when I said I had, she said she would send hubby over and I said no…I have to go to town tomorrow and will drop it off in the mailbox. “Can’t you drop it off on the front porch.” No, the mailbox is a close as I plan to get to your Typhoid Mary household. And don’t use it until a couple of days before your appointment. 

And then there was more whining about having to wait…they only gave her a few pain pills. I told her to have hubby get a few large bottles of Mylanta or Pepto Bismol and as soon as she felt the first twinge of something like heartburn, to take a shot.,,that it helps. And I told her to quit whining about having to wait a couple of weeks…I had to wait four months since I was pregnant and was buying Costco-size bottles of that stuff!

On a good note, son and future DIL set a date for the wedding.


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## AliOop

My sister-in-law is extremely ill with Covid. She has a fever, pneumonia, blood clots on her lungs, and low SAT levels. But after five days in the hospital, this morning they sent her home with some meds, telling her it would be months of slow recovery and potentially meds for life.

Her husband *only* has flu symptoms, but I'm not sure why they think he can care for her while he is quite ill with the Covid fever and cough. They both have underlying health issues that put them at higher risk for complications and poor outcomes.

I truly don't understand the thinking behind the care she has received. With *normal* (non-Covid) pneumonia, she would have remained hospitalized for monitoring and treatment. The hospital is not overwhelmed with patients, so it's not like they need the bed for something more urgent.

She is my husband's only sibling, and their parents are deceased. It's hard to know whether to get on a plane, or wait it out for a bit and pray that she recovers.


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## linne1gi

Personally if I was able, I would go there to help them out for a couple of weeks.


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## LynetteO

How scary & how frustrating. That just doesn’t make sense! Whatever your decision, I am praying for health & recovery  for your family.


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## AliOop

linne1gi said:


> Personally if I was able, I would go there to help them out for a couple of weeks.


Unfortunately, my husband has a lot of health issues, including Parkinson's Disease, lupus, and several other autoimmune conditions. He's still ambulatory around the house, but traveling even on a vacation is very, very hard on him. Once we'd get there, he'd not be in any physical shape to help them. I'd love to go so I could cook and clean for them, but I am just back from two weeks of vacation. My office would be hammered if I left again right now, even for a few days.

Most of all, his sister is horrified at the idea that we might catch Covid from them if we came. We've both had it 2x, and aren't really that concerned on that point, but they are saying, "Don't come!" Thankfully, they do have church friends nearby who are caring for them.

But .... it's still very hard to be so far away. This one of those times that I'd really like to be retired so we'd be free to go as needed.


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## earlene

AliOop, I am so sorry to hear this and feel badly for your situation and your husband who is probably feeling all kinds of helpless.  I pray for a speedy recovery and strength for your SIL & BIL and those marvelous friends who are helping them out in your absence.


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## Jersey Girl

@AliOop Sim so sorry to hear that your in-laws are so sick. I know you would be there if you could. Will keep them both in my prayers.


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## AliOop

Jersey Girl said:


> @AliOop Sim so sorry to hear that your in-laws are so sick. I know you would be there if you could. Will keep them both in my prayers.


Thank you, friend.


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## Babyshoes

@AliOop it sounds like it's really not practical or practicable for you to get there in person. I can only imagine the frustration - I too have family a long way away and it's really hard at times like this.

I wonder if there is a care company you could contact and pay for remotely who might be willing to send in a suitably masked carer once or twice a day for a short visit, to help with essential functions like hygiene, basic cleaning, food prep etc. If they're sensible, it'll also give you an objective pair of eyes to watch her progress.


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## AliOop

Thank you, @Babyshoes that is a lovely idea. At the moment, they insist that a few local friends from their church are providing all the help they need. They also live in a fairly rural area (northern Wyoming) where medical care in general is awful, and independent care services simply don't exist. But I'll do some checking to see if any options might exist. My BIL has very good insurance after retiring from a very large public utility company, so that's the positive bit. 

We hope to hear from him today with an update. His last text yesterday was simply, "She had a really rough day." He said in previous texts that besides being quite sick himself, he's overcome with emotions and not able to talk or function well. I can only imagine.


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## dibbles

If they have medicare (not sure of the ages here, but you mentioned retired so...) the medicare advantage supplemental insurance will often provide meals to be delivered for a couple of weeks after a hospital stay. I don't know if they have a meals on wheels type of service in their area, but maybe something like that could be helpful. Otherwise, there are options like Healthy Fresh meal kits that need minimal prep/cooking that can be delivered. I know how helpless you and your hubby feel. Hoping everyone starts to feel better soon.


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## AliOop

Thanks @dibbles they do have Medicare in addition to their insurance from his former employer. Great idea re: meals on wheels, as well as meal kits. I will definitely check into that!

UPDATE: just received a text from my SIL. She says she is feeling a smidge better today. We will take it! Thanks for all who have prayed and are praying.


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