# Sketchy Farmers Market?



## Corinne

So I have been planning to be a vendor at an upcoming "summer" farmers market that takes place locally on the second Saturday of every month from June-September.

It is from 10am-2pm and is a relatively small market so I thought it would be a good way to get my feet wet now that I have a sellers permit, EIN, FBN etc...

Information on this thing is scarce though. There is a facebook page so I messaged the owner two weeks ago with no reply. Then I saw her phone # and texted her to ask about requirements and fees. She said there is an application (that she would need to e-mail me) and a $40 vendor fee. Ouch! I'm pretty sure the LARGE market one city over has almost the same fee!

It seems to me that she is making bank while the vendors starve at this tiny market.

Also, there is a "certified" market in this city which is run by the city, and when I called them they didn't seem to know the other lady existed.

I have a feeling that she is keeping a low profile because she's not following regulations, and is only looking to make some extra moolah... I don't know. Does it sound fishy to you or am I just paranoid? Should I give the small market a chance or am I better off heading over to the larger one that is every weekend?


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## CanaDawn

Get the application emailed and look it over, and talk to vendors?  I'm not sure.  
Is she advertising it as an approved Farmer's Market (which here is regulated as a not-for-profit, controls the products eligible to be sold, and offers members insurance, etc, as well as a blanket vendor's licence), or a public market (here would require separate food establishment licences or vendors licences for each vendor, vs the blanket one, and is privately owned (for-profit)


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## dixiedragon

$40 doesn't seem that much. My mom had a stall at a small craft show event for a charity and it was $20 for a space, plus 20% of your sales.


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## samirish

$40 seems cheap to me but then it again it really is dependent on what is the norm for your area.

my market is $250 for the season...


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## cmzaha

Fact #1 she has to follow the rules and get city permits. Fact #2 market managers are notorious for not calling back. I have spent up to a year getting in touch with market managers. 
The market you have mentioned here is a Produce Only market and does not accept soap. $35-$60 is quite common here and I will warn you, the markets are very very slow here at the moment. My Friday market is $60 per night and is getting pretty tough to make the fee. Most also require insurance. Good luck to you, markets are very tough here...


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## Corinne

I checked out the larger market one city over and they charge the same fee--but I know for a fact that they get at least a couple hundred people walking through unlike this one, which capped at about 40 customers last month.

Thanks for all of the information! I think I will try out the larger one since they seem to be more organized and were able to give me an application on the spot. And since they are the same price, I don't know why anyone would bother selling at the small market?

Also, the large market limits products sold to only handmade goods and produce--while I found out the smaller market allows all sorts of retail vendors! I don't really get it, but I definitely would rather sell at a market full of crafters and farmers than a market full of salesmen and marketers.


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## cmzaha

I do one that gets thousands people walking around and the sales suck lately. Sometimes the smaller markets are actually better. If you are talking about Chino do they not have a soapmaker? They used to


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## Corinne

EDIT: Clearing this so I don't offend anyone local who might be reading this  I don't mean to offend anyone so please don't take it that way--just being honest and straightforward here.


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## Relle

I thought you were new to soaping Corinne, still learning and have only done a few batches ? and your going to sell at a market, already :shock:.


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## Corinne

Relle, I actually started researching and experimenting last October, but hadn't dealt directly with lye until recently because I was afraid to (silly me!). Now I've been making quite a large amount of soap over the past few weeks... and have gotten so many orders from friends now that I realized I should sell at a market instead of driving all over to make deliveries. I am still sticking to the basics for selling (I don't want to test out failures on people), and I've got a few other products aside from soap (lip balm, lotion bars, body butter, tooth cream, and deoderant in the works) that I've been selling too, so I just finally decided to stop telling myself I'm not cut out for this kind of thing and just go for it.

Plus I have already sunk $500+ into all these supplies, and college doesn't pay for itself 

Actually the tipping point was my sister who said my soap worked REALLY well. I love her to death and she's vegetarian and the main reason I'm making all vegan and vegetarian natural products...

Oh! And the market I plan to sell at is at least a month away. So I will NOT be selling two-week-cured soaps, haha.


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## cmzaha

Most of us spend a year or so before going to market and the markets here are not going to make you much money. Sorry to sound like a downer but it is the way it is right now. I know you mentioned that you are going to go introduce yourself to the other soapmaker in the market you are interested in, unfortunetly do not expect a warm greeting. Hopefully I am wrong, but competition here is fierce and most of us do not appreciate when the market managers let in more soapmakers. None of the markets are large enough to support multiple soapmakers. I am fortunate that in my main market where I have a large following that keep me going. They just let in 3 more soapmakers and I gripe constantly to them. I also outlast most because I keep a large inventory. One market last week, which is usually good for me, I made zip. It is very discouraging to get up, set-up take down and head to the next market for nothing


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## Hazel

Corinne said:


> I have a feeling that she is keeping a low profile because she's not following regulations, and _*is only looking to make some extra moolah*_...



I am asking this politely - how is her desire to earn extra money different from what you're doing?


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## OliveOil2

If you weren't using lye until a few weeks ago, then you only have a few weeks experience. It is not responsible to sell your soap, you need to know how your soap will hold up for the long term, and that your recipe is safe. A few weeks isn't even enough time for a full cure.
 This seems to be a common problem with soap making as a hobby, look it turned to soap now I can make some money! Yes it isn't an inexpensive hobby, and even more expensive once you are ready to sell and add insurance and other necessary business fees. Do you have insurance in place?


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## Corinne

Hazel said:


> I am asking this politely - how is her desire to earn extra money different from what you're doing?



Sorry if I sounded a little harsh in saying that... I was a little upset once I discovered the farmers market "vendors" she had lined up were all things like Origami Owl and such. I was hoping that they would be primarily crafters because I have a great respect for crafters of all kinds... and my reason for selling is not to earn money so I can pad my wallet, but rather to earn money to make more/better products for people  I may sound dumb or naiive for that, but it is the simple truth. My joy is in making things that make other people happy. At the same time, I have been doing all of the legal legwork to get this thing up and running, and it bothered me a bit to think that she might be making a hefty lump of cash off of vendors who are starving at a low-volume market.



OliveOil2 said:


> If you weren't using lye until a few weeks ago, then you only have a few weeks experience. It is not responsible to sell your soap, you need to know how your soap will hold up for the long term, and that your recipe is safe. A few weeks isn't even enough time for a full cure.
> This seems to be a common problem with soap making as a hobby, look it turned to soap now I can make some money! Yes it isn't an inexpensive hobby, and even more expensive once you are ready to sell and add insurance and other necessary business fees. Do you have insurance in place?



My mistake: I have used lye for years, just not in this way. I used to be a chemistry major and dealt with tons of bases, but discovered that I wanted something more people-oriented than a lab job. I don't really want to get all up in arms right now and defend myself... I posted about this kind of thing on another thread, and as I've said already, I will let my works and actions speak for themselves. First of all, chemical reactions are predictable. If you know what you are doing and are very accurate, follow all steps carefully, etc. then the product should be safe. And to be sure, I've tested my batches in numerous ways. Second of all, bottom line is that if my soap is crap then... well, it's crap. People won't buy it, my business will tank, and I'll have learned my lesson. BUT--so far, I love my soap. So does my sister. And my friend. And yes, they are taking a risk on me. No, I don't have everything figured out. But there are a lot of soapers I know of who have soaped for YEARS and still don't have it all figured out. And on the insurance note, I have about every license/permit/fee out there taken care of at this point, and am working on insurance. So yes, I am doing this all by the books and reporting it all to Uncle Sam correctly to protect myself and other people.


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## CanaDawn

IS it a farmer's market, or an ordinary market?  There's great big differences.


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## seven

you were a chemistry major and have used lye for years, yet you were afraid to use it for soaping?


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## cmzaha

CanaDawn said:


> IS it a farmer's market, or an ordinary market? There's great big differences.


 
May I ask a stupid question and ask the difference? Here many of our Farmer Markets include crafts, which in So Cal they still fall under craft. Up North not so much. We do have Farmer Markets that are producer only markets no handcrafted anything. Then we have Art Walks that many times include both


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## CanaDawn

Like I said earlier:





CanaDawn said:


> Is she advertising it as an approved Farmer's Market (which here is regulated as a not-for-profit, controls the products eligible to be sold, and offers members insurance, etc, as well as a blanket vendor's licence), or a public market (here would require separate food establishment licences or vendors licences for each vendor, vs the blanket one, and is privately owned (for-profit)



eta: The number of non-handmade or -vendor-produced items is usually capped in a FM, while other markets might welcome more "second seller" type things.



seven said:


> you were a chemistry major and have used lye for years, yet you were afraid to use it for soaping?



Good point. I am probably somewhat MORE "slap-dash" after years of lab experience handling all sorts of things - not unsafe, just not afraid of things, due to familiarity and handling skills obtained thru work, and from knowing the chemistry and the safety issues from a different angle than "rules", I think.


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## Hazel

Corinne said:


> I was a little upset once I discovered the farmers market "vendors" she had lined up were all things like Origami Owl and such. I was hoping that they would be primarily crafters because I have a great respect for crafters of all kinds... and my reason for selling is not to earn money so I can pad my wallet, but rather to earn money to make more/better products for people I may sound dumb or naiive for that, but it is the simple truth. My joy is in making things that make other people happy. At the same time, I have been doing all of the legal legwork to get this thing up and running, and it bothered me a bit to think that she might be making a hefty lump of cash off of vendors who are starving at a low-volume market.



Different strokes for different folks. I'm quite happy to see jewelry vendors, etc at shows because they attract people. Then hopefully, my products will catch people's eyes as they walk around. At the last show, I was the only soapmaker...heh heh.  Unfortunately, it drizzled most of the day so there wasn't a big turnout. However, it would be nice to talk to other soapmakers.  I think there will be at least one other soapmaker at the next few shows.

  I don’t think this lady would make a “hefty lump of cash” by organizing a market; although hopefully she might a little extra to cover her time and efforts. Generally, the fees help to cover the rent of the area or building plus advertising. A lady I know organized a craft/vendor show and she had to buy supplies to make posters and flyers, create them, print them and distribute them. To be fair, she did ask for help with distributing the flyers. But she put a lot of time into making the flyers and posters. If she made a small profit, then good for her since she should have some recompense for the time spent with renting the hall, promoting the show and gas to distribute posters and flyers. 

  “Starving” sounds a bit dramatic. Every show is a gamble. Sales may not be all that good but there is still the possibility of a recognition factor. Hand out business cards and there could be people who order off your website or look for you at another show. Finally, if vendors aren’t happy with traffic and earnings, then they just won’t return to a show or market. 

  It’s all well and good to make the best products you can and only want to make people happy. Perhaps I haven’t met enough crafters but most of them go into selling because they’re proud of the products they’ve created plus want to supplement their income. I’ve only met one woman who said she started selling after she retired because she was bored. The shows got her out of the house, kept her active and she enjoyed meeting people. She was an awesome lady. She made gorgeous, unique purses and really could have asked a lot more than what she had priced them. Of course, I had to buy one, my sister bought one and we chipped together to buy one for our mother.  I haven’t read all of your posts but I recall one soon after you joined where you stated something about if sales were good enough, it might help pay for college. So, it sounded like it wasn't an entirely altruistic reason for your decision to start selling.  



Corinne said:


> 1.  I have used lye for years, just not in this way. I used to be a chemistry major and dealt with tons of bases, ….
> 
> 2. I will let my works and actions speak for themselves.
> 
> 3. I've tested my batches in numerous ways.
> 
> 4. No, I don't have everything figured out. But there are a lot of soapers I know of who have soaped for YEARS and still don't have it all figured out.
> 
> 5. And on the insurance note, I have about every license/permit/fee out there taken care of at this point, and am working on insurance. So yes, I am doing this all by the books and reporting it all to Uncle Sam correctly to protect myself and other people.


 
    1. Apples and oranges. 

  2. They do.

  3. Numerous ways? Does this mean you know how the soap will turn out over an extended period of time? The scents or colors won’t fade or morph? The soap won’t develop DOS?

  4. You know a lot of soapers who’ve years of experience and none of them gave you the same advice I’ve seen other members mention to you?

  5. That’s fast work to have all the licenses/permits since it’s been under 3 weeks since you stated you were a “relatively new soaper” and asked advice on what oils to use. 


  Please don’t take this the wrong way. I’m not saying any of this to be mean. A few weeks of soapmaking and making 7 or 8 batches aren’t enough experience. Your very basic questions demonstrated you hadn’t even researched or really even read anything about soapmaking. You’ve gone from “relatively new” to stating you’ll be selling at a farmer’s market in just 12 days. I think you need to step back and give yourself more time to ensure you have formulated a good soap which won’t become rancid, etc. You don’t know how long a customer may store your soap after purchase. Someone could tuck it away for 6 months or longer. If your soap goes rancid, there will be a very unhappy customer who may tell other people about it. You don’t want to ruin your business before you even really get started.


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## CanaDawn

Using lye/bases for years and then using lye isn't "apples and oranges" at all.  It IS chemistry, this business of making soap.  Now....since that poster then went on to say she was afraid to use lye until recently, I think the doubt is not whether using lye is like using lye  (it is) but whether the level of comfort was ever there.


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## Hazel

Again, I disagree with you. I don't believe comparing handling lye bases in a laboratory as comparable to using lye in your home. I'd be a lot more concerned about handling a lye base in a lab. However, my lab experience is from many years ago so perhaps alkali bases aren't as concentrated. Then again, perhaps the instructor was just trying to scare us so we wouldn't do something stupid with them. I was nervous about using lye when I first starting soapmaking, too. But it's not the bugbear I had read about; although it should be treated with caution.

However, I realize I have a different perspective of soapmaking from you. I've talked about the chemistry vs art in the past and I don't feel like writing it all out again. Suffice to say, I'll always view soapmaking as an art form and as a creative outlet for me; not as a chemistry experiment.


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## CanaDawn

I don't understand that comment...."base" just means "alkali", and all can be diluted or used concentrated.  That would be no different to when you were using bases in lab.

Lye is a base.  That's just a fact. 

You're apparently talking lab experience as a student, so we definitely have a different perspective there.  I don't know why you think pure NaOH would be different in a lab, and MORE dangerous there than the pure NaOH we use to soap.  It's the same stuff. Lye is lye.  If you have handled it, or other bases, safely in  a lab, you can definitely do so in your home.  The skills are  transferable <- that's my point.  

It's impossible to deny that soap-making requires chemistry to work at all, but that will never preclude  using that chemical reaction artistically.  I don't see why you are disagreeing so strongly, or making it sound like I deny that soap-making includes artistic skills, because I don't.  It just isn't realistic to say that someone who has extensive lab experience would suddenly be a complete greenhorn at handling the same chemical in a different location.

ANYhow...before I get accused of causing thread drift, the topic of this thread is Farmer's Markets and selling soap there, so I am going to back away from this strange side trip.


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## girlishcharm2004

I don't know why people seem to get offended when someone else mentions they want to start a business regardless of how new/inexperienced they seem. If the soap is crap, the soap is crap. Why does anyone else care? (Rhetorical, I'm not looking for a debate on the issue, just stating that people get sidetracked when they see "new soaper" and "business" in the same post.)


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## Corinne

Blah, I tried to leave in peace, but forgot to turn off my e-mail notifications. I will try to answer some trying questions briefly, simply because you all seem to feel that I am going to tarnish your reputations as soap makers with my horrible inexperience.

1) Sometimes things I say can be interpreted a different way than what I meant initially. Please keep that in mind when I say that I was "afraid" to use lye until recently, because I am a Type A personality and very cautious. I was "afraid" in the sense that I wanted to make sure I had EVERYTHING about soap basics down to a t, before going out and letting other people try my soap. I didn't want ultra high pH levels causing chemical burns at my hand.

2) I don't use colors. I only use essential oils. And I have used them in many other handmade products and M&P bases before. So in regards to fading and morphing... I don't know and honestly I actually don't really care. My intention is to have products for people with sensitive skin like myself, and I plan to change and adapt my products as I get feedback from friends (because the majority of people I plan to sell to are friends right now, which is why I'm picking a local market that I will invite them to come to rather than shipping to all of the friends who are interested). I'm not going to charge through the nose for my soap because I want people to expect a product that is a work in progress, but unfortunately I'm not blessed with unlimited funds and so I can't give out any MORE samples currently. And the DOS are yet to be seen... I have kept samples from all of my batches to track their progress.

3. Let me make this clear, since I haven't already, apparently: my business has been in the works for months. I did not build it in three weeks. I am cautious and do not spill my guts to the public before I have things licensed and copyrighted, and since my FBN had not been through the 4-week cycle at the time, I thought it best to NOT mention my name choice on a forum where other people might see the opportunity to snatch the name that took me months to decide on... I had my sellers permit long before that and made the necessary changes once my FBN was set. I think I asked something about a sellers permit because I had one but wasn't sure if there was something more needes to sell soap aside from a local business license if you only sell at craft fairs etc... Anyway, forgive me if I wasn't completely transparent on this matter.

4. For the bazillionth time I do not plan to sell much soap. I will only sell what I know is SAFE, has had AT LEAST 1 month cure time, and has been tested on myseld in the first place. But secondly, I will be selling lip balms, salves, creams, solid lotions, etc. that I have been making for months! So please stop treating me as if I am incapable of making anything BUT soap, and that I will be tainting the names of soapmakers everywhere by choosing to start up a business to sell my OTHER handcrafted items. I don't know what else any of you sell, but I am sure that a lot of you sell things other than soap, right? Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

Please don't take this as a mean or targeted response. I'm trying to cover a lot of questions and concerns in a single post while in the process of batching up some solid lotions for the market.

I did come on this forum as a "newbie soaper" because I didn't want to come off as a know-it-all after only learning how to soap from various books, websites, etc. and using lye calculators to check amd double check everything. As I said I'm Type A and I often spend months researching things inside and out before I "take the plunge". So when I finally decided to, I thought it would be a good idea to check with others who had more experience to see if I was doing everything correctly, and to confirm or deny what I had read online (because you can't always trust the web, knock on wood).

By the way, I would like to just end this with saying that I have known some soapers who I've seen at various markets for years, and I have bought their soaps and been severely disappointed. This is because they are not like many of the people on this forum. They do not seek advice, they do not take advice, and they remain stagnant in their methods and ingredients. The LAST thing I want to to is become like them, and so I have chosen to humbly seek advice on these forums, which has been a great help to me in confirming many things and correcting others. I had hoped that asking questions would continue to reap benefits for me as I continue on this journey, but instead I have been met with a lot of adversity and simple weight which has unfortunately eaten up much of my time over the past few days...

So, as I said before, thank you for the advice and help. I'll leave this thread and all of my posts up for the benefit (and hopefully not to the detriment) of anyone else who is interested.


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## CanaDawn

girlishcharm2004 said:


> I don't know why people seem to get offended when someone else mentions they want to start a business regardless of how new/inexperienced they seem. If the soap is crap, the soap is crap. Why does anyone else care? (Rhetorical, I'm not looking for a debate on the issue, just stating that people get sidetracked when they see "new soaper" and "business" in the same post.)




The reasons have been laid out over and over and over, and for the most part, have merit.


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## Corinne

On a slightly different note, it would seem that some of my more positive posts on other threads are mysteriously "vanishing" without a trace... Since I see no issues with that happening to other posters, I will take that as a notice of my presence on these forums being unwelcome.

If I have caused any turmoil over the past few weeks I apologize; I had no idea a few simple questions would cause so many problems. I suppose that since my posts are mysteriously being deleted, I will probably only be remembered in a negative light based on this thread.

Again, thank you for all of the help and advice. It has been greatly appreciated. If I could do this all over again, I would probably not even mention my entrepreneurial intentions.

Blessings to you all in both your soapmaking and your daily lives!

EDIT: I would just like to add that I NEVER mentioned that I would be selling soap in my first post... soap was always just an added bonus in my mind as I start up this business of natural skin care, and since this forum section is about business and craft fairs in "general", I didn't realize that I needed to specify that it was my intention to sell OTHER products at the market, and sell my recently made soaps to FRIENDS there as an easier method of distribution to friends who are interested in giving my cured ones a shot... I just felt slightly offended and attacked when some people assumed that all I intend to sell is second-rate soap, and that because I am new to CP soaping, that must mean I am also new to lip balm, salves, lotions, balms, and anything else I choose to sell at the market. I hope that none of you meant any offense, but I couldn't help feel offended when so many people went off topic to discuss my inexperience on this thread and other related threads.


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## Shalisk

girlishcharm2004 said:


> I don't know why people seem to get offended when someone else mentions they want to start a business regardless of how new/inexperienced they seem. If the soap is crap, the soap is crap. Why does anyone else care? (Rhetorical, I'm not looking for a debate on the issue, just stating that people get sidetracked when they see "new soaper" and "business" in the same post.)




Because it effects how they see OTHER soapers soaps that DO have years of experiance and knows what happens to their soap.

Thats why get get offended/annoyed.

"I spent X dollars I gotta recoup it some how!"
"I had these four people tell me my soap is awsome..." etc etc
"You" in the following represents "Suzy Soaper" (Anyone. Not anyone in particular)


Well lets put it into perspective, if you spent 500 dollars, on your buisness venture that MUST include the insurance and such that you have to have, so ....really you havent spent that much.

Lets adress the things that 'you' have in your favor, and counterpoint them.

"I have had family and friends tell you how great it is!"

Well thats nice. But I dont know many friends or family that would say "holy crap this stuff sucked." if it smells nice and they didnt die, they wont wanna hurt your feelings.

"I spent X dollars and I gotta make it back somehow..."

Perhaps you are not familiar with a hobby. It generally is  a money sink done out of love. 

Also there are others that spent FAR MORE and spent more time and they are not selling yet. The diffrence is many. Some do it for fun or love, others want to make a profit but know it takes TIME. I am currently at 987.23 in WSP alone. I have 2 stores asking me to sell things there, but the fact is: my soap is not ready. Its not tested long enough. I cant be SURE my product wont ruin people on handmade soaps. Maybe in a few months. but not right now.

"College dont pay for itself."

College takes 4 years to 'master' and putyour skills on the market (IE: Time.)

"Who cares if I do it and my soap sucks, it does not hurt YOU."

Yes it does, lets say you botch a batch and someone gets burned on it (extream case but run with me) They will never buy another handmade soap. I wouldent blame them. That means they wont buy your crappy soap or the good soap someone who put the time in, made. It hurts everyone.

"Why do you care so much about what I do? Get a life."

I care because someday I wish to sell mine and people giving it a bad name is no good.


There are more common statements but you get the point here. Don't be a suzy soaper. Suck it up and take your time. 500 bucks aint all that much for a hobby anyway. Look into RC racing sometime ^.^ (My old hobby)


Hope this helps.


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## Shalisk

*Disclaimer:

The thoughs and views expressed here are my own and in no way affiliated with anyone else. They are not ment to be offensive, just my unbiased, unfiltered opinion. 



Corinne said:


> 1) Sometimes things I say can be interpreted a different way than what I meant initially. Please keep that in mind when I say that I was "afraid" to use lye until recently, because I am a Type A personality and very cautious. I was "afraid" in the sense that I wanted to make sure I had EVERYTHING about soap basics down to a t, before going out and letting other people try my soap. I didn't want ultra high pH levels causing chemical burns at my hand.
> 
> <and a whole lot of words, numbers and psudo-self-humble-boasting mixxed with other things>




1) But you don't have it down to a T, you are asking about basic stuff still. 2) "I don't know, and I dont care." This is why people think you should not sell your soaps 
3) You had all this planned but are still asking basic questions and such? Amazing, I dont plan what I want for breakfast.
 4) Bazillion is a fictious number. Much like many of the things you seem to have said. I am not trying to stir the pot but what you have said has changed repeatedly, and altered from how it was posted time and time again. It makes me wonder how much of what you say really is true, and thus makes me doubt anything you say. This is a community where trust is important. I make mistakes, I get corrected, those corrections help me from hurting myself or others. If your not being honest then you wont get good feedback and it screws up a lot of things, including soapers that find your posts later to get GOOD information.

 4.5) "I came to this as a newbie soaper because I didnt wanna come off as a know it all" so what you are saying is you asked noob questions that were found with a simple search (google or otherwise) so that you could build up a fake reputation as a noob, waste peoples time ansering things you already knew? That....is kinda uncool in my book. And that is unfortunate because some of us want to learn from experianced people. Experianced people do not like having time wasted. I feel sad that I wont want to look at any of your posts anymore, because I wont know what is real and what is not....

I hope you got what you wanted from here, because while I know there are many many people that want to help even after deception and outright mean things, there are those who will not, and keep those things to themself.

 Good luck, you will need it.

PS: I see all 57 of your 57 posts no one is deleting anything.


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## Corinne

Oh. My. Gosh.

For the umpteenth time, please stop attacking me for starting up a business to sell things that are NOT SOAP.

Because you may SAY that you are not attacking me (nicely put, "Suzy Soaper") but when it is BLATANTLY obvious that you ARE, just cut the crap.

I AM NOT SELLING SOAP TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. PLEASE STOP NEEDLESSLY ATTACKING ME FOR THAT.

Lastly, I corrected myself already in saying that sometimes I say things that don't come across how I intended them to. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, read the rest of my posts (as in I am working 34 hrs/week to pay for college--and since all my money is going into that, I decided I need to start selling my products if I want to keep making them so they are hopefully not a money pit for ETERNITY--I DO know it will probably take me 2+ years, I wouldn't have spent 9 months on this already if I wasn't determined!). And PLEASE stop making assumptions by lumping me together with "every other newbie" in existence!

I am not one to make personal attacks, and I do not appreciate it when people attack me on NO grounds and act like it is acceptable because they are "right".

Any form of animosity, no matter how well intended, is unnacceptable in my books.


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## Shalisk

I was awnsering Girlishcharms question. Having seen the same question awnsered many times in other threads, I felt content to post the response in a way using examples (Somthing I had not seen in many other posts) I am sorry that you took it personally.

The internet is a rough place when it comes to text and its easy to think somthing is an attack when it isnt, I do this frequently myself. Please, take a breath, none of it was directed at you personally. I am a no BS kinda fellah that if I was going to call you out, I would do so blatantly. 
I am gunna back out of this thread now because I don't need the mods on me for a fight.
Take care.


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## Corinne

I don't know why it is that no matter how much I explain myself, someone on this forum has SOMETHING to say to attack what I've said in one way or another, but if you were attempting to weed me out, congratulations.

I can't continue to put up with the constant backhanded comments from a few choice members over the past few days. I used to work retail and I have to say that I have had very bad customer experiences, but not many people were aggressive to the point that I have seen on this forum and especially in the last few posts.

Someone mentioned other forums being worse than this and I'd have to say it all depends on whose side you're on in this case. To me, crafting is a personal joy and passion, and it seems that some people here appreciate that until business comes into play.

I'm sorry that I ever opened myself up and trusted this community enough to ask sincere questions.

I won't make that mistake twice.

I WILL be selling my balms and lotions at the farmers market, and I will not allow what has been said here to strip me of my drive to start my own business and build it with my own two hands. My whole family is against me and my own father won't help me with paperwork or legal things even though he ran a successful business for years. I chose to seek advice here because I thought it was a community of people who I could respect and trust in working my way through the details.

I began this journey alone and I guess I'll continue it alone for now.

For the final time, thank you all for your help thus far, and blessings on you despite the bitter taste I have right now.


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## Jaccart789

Corinne...

I know it seems that they are attacking you, but I don't think they are. I think they are trying to prevent you from making a mistake. It is harsh reality and I hope for your sake that you succeed. Don't take it personally and don't leave the forums as all these veteran soapers are such assets, and always so helpful. I understand your eagerness and your dream, so you are going to do what you feel necessary. This forum is a wealth of knowledge and since you are still new to the craft it will only make you a better soaper. Just agree to disagree and carry on.


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## Relle

Corinne said:


> On a slightly different note, it would seem that some of my more positive posts on other threads are mysteriously "vanishing" without a trace... Since I see no issues with that happening to other posters, I will take that as a notice of my presence on these forums being unwelcome.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Corinne, your posts are not mysteriously vanishing without a trace. This forum is heavily moderated and it will be continued to do so with or without you - ALL members, NOT just you, are moderated. If something needs correcting, deleting, moved or changed, it is done. It does happen to other posters, it is just not brought to everyone's attention, other than in the Mods forum, if you can keep track of all the other members posts - good luck, because I can't.
> 
> Here is why they were deleted-
> 
> Corinne you had 2 posts deleted by Mods, one in General Chat because of a Rule Violation -
> 
> 10 - "I'm leaving" posts are not allowed. Should you wish to leave the forum simply go. Go now. Leave already... just leave and don't look back.
> 
> and another because you gave advice to another member that was totally wrong. There is no need to reply to this, these are the facts.


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## Corinne

I digress... I had thought that there was some kind of rule against disrespect or criticism of other users, and felt that I should be protected under it.

I apologize for taking offense at what I felt were personal blows ("inexperienced", "irresponsible", and a few things I will not mention) on this and other threads.

I do not wish to continue arguing for my own character when it is obvious that the general perception of me is not very good, and my explanations are of no benefit to anyone.

Thank you.


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## CanaDawn

Sigh....so....about FARMER'S MARKETS.......are there similar associations in the US that define what makes a market specifically a Farmer's Market?  Here there is sort of a governing body that umbrellas over the individual markets and sets some guidelines and standards, and offers the vendors insurance and permitting.


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## Corinne

The local farmers market that I plan on attending (where I will NOT be selling soap...) does have blanket insurance, and I know that the group which oversees it also oversees other semi-local markets and regulates them. I'm not sure if that is the same thing though, because it would seem that other out-of-area markets regulate under different rules etc... cmzaha might have more information on SoCal market regulations since she has a lot of experience with them.


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## PinkCupcake

Just my opinion--I haven't seen anything here I would consider an attack. I see people telling difficult and unpleasant truths to someone who doesn't want to hear them.


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## Hazel

PinkCupcake - Good point. No one wants to hear it. I know because I don't like to hear it , either. I've got a friend who can cut through  applesauce so she's not always a fun person to be around. But it's good to have one person who will say what I need to hear; as opposed to what I want to hear. 

To start with – another apology to funastrum. I really am sorry to have disrupted your thread.

  @ Shalisk – Well said! Don’t worry. I see it as expressing your opinion.



CanaDawn said:


> I don't understand that comment...."base" just means "alkali", and all can be diluted or used concentrated. That would be no different to when you were using bases in lab.
> 
> Lye is a base. That's just a fact.
> 
> You're apparently talking lab experience as a student, so we definitely have a different perspective there. I don't know why you think pure NaOH would be different in a lab, and MORE dangerous there than the pure NaOH we use to soap. It's the same stuff. Lye is lye. If you have handled it, or other bases, safely in a lab, you can definitely do so in your home. The skills are transferable <- that's my point.


 
  Thank you for pointing this out! I appreciate the validation of my feeling that something seemed a little hinky. Yes, my lab experiment was as a student in the distant, murky past and I couldn’t figure out why some comments gave me a sense of unease.



CanaDawn said:


> It's impossible to deny that soap-making requires chemistry to work at all, but that will never preclude using that chemical reaction artistically. I don't see why you are disagreeing so strongly, or making it sound like I deny that soap-making includes artistic skills, because I don't. It just isn't realistic to say that someone who has extensive lab experience would suddenly be a complete greenhorn at handling the same chemical in a different location.
> 
> ANYhow...before I get accused of causing thread drift, the topic of this thread is Farmer's Markets and selling soap there, so I am going to back away from this strange side trip.


 
  I didn’t deny soapmaking requires chemistry to work. I just wonder how many soapers really think about chemistry when the make a batch. To say I’m disagreeing strongly with you demonstrates you really haven’t gained a sense of who I am just from a few posts. But that’s all right because it doesn’t matter. I can’t believe we’ve actually found something else to agree on about getting off topic. However, I wouldn’t have accused you of it because I’m to blame, too. I enjoyed this debate.




Corinne said:


> Oh. My. Gosh.
> 
> For the umpteenth time, please stop attacking me for starting up a business to sell things that are NOT SOAP.
> 
> 
> I AM NOT SELLING SOAP TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC. PLEASE STOP NEEDLESSLY ATTACKING ME FOR THAT.
> 
> 
> I am not one to make personal attacks, and I do not appreciate it when people attack me on NO grounds and act like it is acceptable because they are "right".
> 
> Any form of animosity, no matter how well intended, is unnacceptable in my books.


 
  This isn’t an attack. I just want to mention I saw a post by you where you stated you had made 7-8  batches to sell at a farmer’s market. That’s not the general public?

  Also, you’re viewing people expressing concerns and opinions as animosity. It’s not. I’ll say it again. If I wanted to be antagonistic, you would know it and really, really be unhappy with my comments.

  Okay, I feel this thread is going south. I’m ready to lock it but I don’t want to be arbitrary since I’m involved in this topic. I’m just going to let it go on. However, if posts get more aggressive, I’m positive another admin will be along to moderate and make a decision.


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## CanaDawn

Hazel :  I truly appreciate you taking the time to read my reply.  I, too, felt something was "hinky".  I think I understand now what you are saying a bit better, and what came across as strong disagreement is probably our mutual frustration at trying to "get" where each of us is coming from.  

I'm pretty much SURE most people don't think about chemistry when they soap.  To be honest, I would say often lab work doesn't consider the specifics of the reactions each time a solution is made, or a common reaction produced.  It's all sort of "cookbook", in the mundane aspects.  That's not to say the proper cautions aren't taken, though...just that I sure don't think about where all the anions and cations end up when I mix up a buffer.  

We have all benefited from DeeAnne's chemistry brilliance, and all admired each other's artistic brilliance, and I prefer a Renaissance-type unity of art and science.    I take nothing from either side when I appreciate the value and benefit of each.

I hope this brief struggle to understand each other won't colour future interactions!  

(PS...my art medium is cake/fondant  )


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## Corinne

Hazel, I made 7-8 batches for a friend.... not to sell at a market? I don't understand where all of these rumors about me selling a bunch of soap are coming from...

And I just wanted to add that this was a thread I started, for completely different reasons than the discussion currently taking place. What made me upset is things got WAY off topic and people started trying to give me advice on things I never even asked for advice on...

I DID read ALL of the posts so far, and some very good advice was given (especially toward the beginning) along with some insightful side discussions.

But I didn't ask about any of this. I did not ask about selling my recently made soap--I asked about selling in general at markets, because I'm trying to sell the lip balm that I've been making for the past 9 months. Maybe 9 months isn't long enough for a business venture but I believe that is my choice, and if I AM acting responsibly (as per the advice that has been repeatedly given) then is there a problem?

I felt attacked because people strayed so far off topic seemingly only to discuss how new I am and how I should not be selling week-old soap--which I never even said I was selling in the first place.

I know I am at fault because I realize now that I did not make it 100% clear WHAT I was selling, but I do feel that some effort should have been made on the side of the advice to actually see if the advice given was necessary and relevant...

Maybe this thread will be of help to newbies selling SOAP, but it just doesn't have any relevance to my initial topic, and so I found myself trying to act in defense because I suddenly had a bunch of questions and suggestions (which may have been well-intended) that I was overwhelmed by, and that were of little help or relevance to my questions.


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## Corinne

I also just realized that at least some of you seem to be posting here thinking it's a different thread... If that is what caused all of the misdirected posts I feel a little bit better, because now I understand that some of you were posting not realizing I had started this thread, and so felt I was the target because these topics seemingly came out of nowhere and had nothing to do with my initial post...


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## cmzaha

I am not sure I mentioned it in this thread, and I was not trying to pick on anyone. I stopped at a scrapbooking booth in one of my markets last week to see her selling soap. Since she had no clue who I was I picked up a soap and smelled it, it litterly smelled like spoiled milk and I think it was glycerin. Was hard to determine it was so nasty, I moved on and said nothing. Sometimes my nose is very sensitive so I had my hubby go smell, and he had the same opinion. He asked her why it smelled so bad and her answer was because it is 100% organic it smells that way. I am wondering if she added milk into a m&p base. I do know, my soap today is nicer than it was 6 yrs ago. Looking back I remember people always telling me my soap was very nice, now they come to the booth and tell me my soap is awesome. So time does make a difference and no, I am not bragging. It takes time and money that is not re-couped. I have also mentioned before this is a gentle forum compared to another I am a member of. We try to help so there are not big mistakes or bad soap that gives all of us sellers a bad reputation. I recently had someone at my booth that mentioned they would never use handmade soap because it is so drying, I talked them into trying a sample of one of my very mild soaps and asked them if they could let me know what they thought of it. Again not everyone can use Soap
As for insurance, yes markets have blanket policies, which they have to pay for, but they do not cover liability for your product if someone is hurt. You still do need your own insurance. If you purchase additional insurance through your market it usually only covers their markets.


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## seven

Corinne said:


> Relle, I actually started researching and experimenting last October, but hadn't dealt directly with lye until recently because I was afraid to (silly me!). _*Now I've been making quite a large amount of soap over the past few weeks... and have gotten so many orders from friends now that I realized I should sell at a market instead of driving all over to make deliveries*_. I am still sticking to the basics for selling (I don't want to test out failures on people), and I've got a few other products aside from soap (lip balm, lotion bars, body butter, tooth cream, and deoderant in the works) that I've been selling too, so I just finally decided to stop telling myself I'm not cut out for this kind of thing and just go for it.
> 
> Plus I have already sunk $500+ into all these supplies, and college doesn't pay for itself
> 
> Actually the tipping point was my sister who said my soap worked REALLY well. I love her to death and she's vegetarian and the main reason I'm making all vegan and vegetarian natural products...
> 
> *Oh! And the market I plan to sell at is at least a month away. So I will NOT be selling two-week-cured soaps,* haha.



not Hazel, but.... you said it yourself, you were preparing soaps to be sold at a farmer's market. or did i understand it wrong?


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## Corinne

seven said:


> not Hazel, but.... you said it yourself, you were preparing soaps to be sold at a
> farmer's market. or did i understand it wrong?



Thank you! Finally a question regarding clarification T____T When I said that I meant it loosely--as in soap is what made me decide to sell at the market!

To give some background: I've been selling M&P soap through facebook for the past few months, and when I started CP soaping I thought I should let people make "custom" requests so I would get ideas and try things out. I only charged them for the cost of the materials since I'm on the beginning stages and they were friends who wanted to support me.

What I meant is that people have started to take more of an interest in my products recently, including my soap. So since I've been paying through the nose to ship lip balms and body balms in padded envelopes, I thought: "Oh my gosh, soap will cost a fortune to ship." So my logic said it's time to give this farmers market thing a shot, BEFORE I get knee deep in orders in a few months (I make creams in 6oz bottles too that would be killer to ship).

And that is the long version of my logic, which I now realize has a lot of flaws, but even though I've taken business classes in the past I've realized none of it prepared me for this at all really.


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## CanaDawn

Corinne, really, it's time to let it go.  You don't like the advice you were given, you left and have returned, you've posted contradictory things many times, and then had to backtrack and reformat your meaning, and honestly, this IS a very calm, pleasant forum compared to many.  Thread drift happens.  You did get answers to your initial questions about the market.  Then, due to the fact that members read across threads, other questions were raised about your level of soaping experience to be selling at a market...and while you're going back and clearing posts, you HAVE said that you intend to sell soap in a month at a market.



Corinne said:


> My whole family is against me and my own father  won't help me with paperwork or legal things even though he ran a  successful business for years.



Now.....why is that?  Is there any merit at ALL in what they say about  selling?  I realise it is hard to think objectively when feelings are  hurt or pride is dented, but they may well know you best, and certainly  it sounds like your father knows business well....can you detach from  the hurt for an hour or so, and either ASK what their specific concerns  are or where their lack of support comes from, or (if you already have  heard it all from them) consider point by point what they have said  without trying to refute it?  

Rather than assume they are all "against" you, pretend for a little  while that they are all entirely correct...and bolster your business  plan or goals to include solutions to those criticisms, or be sure they  are not founded in ANY truth at all before dismissing them. 

Horribly hard task, I know, but it won't be the first uphill struggle of  your business launch, and it might show up some flaws or oversights you  truly need to address calmly and impersonally.


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## Aline

Corinne, you did say you were planning on selling your soap at the market. It may not be wise but there's no law against it. 
And I'm sorry you have had your feelings hurt, but people have continued to challenge you because of your counter-statements that just don't make sense. If I were you I would step away from this thread and get back to what you love


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## Dorymae

Guys just stop.  Anyone who wants to sell their soap is going to sell their soap, whether they just started or whether they have researched it for months - IT DOESN'T MATTER.  You will not convince anyone not to sell their soap if they want to sell it.

I know it bothers people and I think the initial polite post explaining to new soapers why they might want to wait to sell  is informative and helpful.

However, getting your nose out of joint because someone does not want or take your advice (and the advice about not selling is never solicited) does no one any good.  What you create is then a new person who wants to fit in - like we all do - and realizes that you will not accept them the way they wanted to be, so they become defensive as any of us would.  This helps no one.  They feel they have to hide a part of what they are doing and the forum is on the hunt for any discrepancies. 

It is crazy.  I don't feel people should sell right away because I feel they will probably fail if they don't have the knowledge to back them up.  However if they feel they do then I'm fine with it.  It is their life, their business, their liability, and their decision. I don't feel it's my responsibility to become a soap vigilante.


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## Corinne

CanaDawn, I'm not arguing anymore... I was just trying to say that I was upset because I felt targeted, and I apologize for my behavior.

I am taking the advice given here and on other threads.

I mentioned my father because I was feeling frustrated at all of the negative input I had felt I was receiving... I do know why he won't help me, and that is because he believes I do not have the drive to do this, so he is trying to let me fail early "for my own good".

In truth I do not know how hard this will be. But if I thought it would be easy it wouldn't be worthwhile. And although it will be difficult, I am not the first one who has started at ground zero. I know that because there are plenty of people building their own businesses brick by brick on these forums.

I really do apologize for my behavior. I was brought to the point of tears last night because of some of the things I read and other personal things that are going on, and when I am in such an emotional state things aren't thought through or stated well...

That is not an excuse, just an explanation. I had a mental breakdown and felt like everyone was against me and spewed things I didn't mean or intend. Even now I'm still fighting the urge to believe that some of the things being said are intentionally hurtful.

I know I'm rambling so I'll stop. I just wanted to say that I meant no harm, and usually am eager to receive constructive criticism, but I have not been myself the past few days, and as I said, have been perceiving everything as intentionally hurtful and targeted.


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## Shalisk

You have apologised a lot. You have said you are done arguing a lot. You have explaned a lot. You have said you will stop a lot.

Maybe this is whats causing the issue. You simply can't let it drop.


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## Corinne

I will only respond to say that I had hoped it would have been dropped at this point.

Can a mod PLEASE close this thread since it seems to have gone so far astray there is no saving it? Thank you.


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## CanaDawn

yeah....if it can't be dropped, maybe it could be closed?


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## Corinne

Does anyone know how to close a thread? Do I need to pm a mod or go to the general forum and ask for it to be closed?


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## CanaDawn

A moderator will decide if it warrants closing.  Meanwhile....just leave it alone, quit posting, quit responding.  Even if it's not closed it will die a natural death.


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## Hazel

CanaDawn said:


> what came across as strong disagreement is probably our mutual frustration at trying to "get" where each of us is coming from.
> I hope this brief struggle to understand each other won't colour future interactions!


 
Don’t worry about it. It’s very hard for me to express myself well in print. You can’t see my facial expressions or hear the tone of my voice. Unfortunately, I occasionally don’t realize how my comments can sound to someone when read.  Also, feelings can affect the reader’s perception and may not be an accurate reflection of what was meant. 

  After saying this…

  Corinne – 

  I noticed seven’s post but since you addressed me directly…



Corinne said:


> Hazel, I made 7-8 batches for a friend.... not to sell at a market? I don't understand where all of these rumors about me selling a bunch of soap are coming from....


 
  Not to be mean but also from this comment…



Corinne said:


> I've now successfully made 7 or 8 awesome batches of soap, and am currently in the process of making some for an upcoming local farmers market.


 
  I’m going to stop here. I am quite willing to let it go since it’s not productive and I’m tired of the drama.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Wow, quite a read.

I am glad that the thread is still open as there is something that has been in the back of my mind for some time about unsolicited advice and not actually answering the asked question.  I was going to post it in one of the general "selling too soon" threads but as it was actually a topic here, I think it is worthwhile:

If someone was to post on well known parenting forum (naming no names) something along the lines of "Which brand of cigarettes should I make my 3 year old smoke?  She's a cute little girl, so I'm thinking more Lucky Strike than Marlbro, but torn between the cool "Cowboy/girl" vibe......................." I can pretty much assure you that no-one will actually answer the question asked and the poster will be inundated with what they will feel are attacks.  

This is an extreme example, but when it comes to selling soap (and it did very much come over that the OP was looking to sell soap at the next market) people do tend to think of safety first and feelings second.  Or third.

I wish you luck selling non-soap things at the market, but make sure to research them before you sign on the dotted line.  It sounds like the larger market might well be the better idea.  Another idea, though, is to sell lotions etc to your friends at wholesale, so you still make a profit, but they pay the postage - it will still be a total win for them cost-wise and will save you the headache of markets


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## JusDin

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> If someone was to post on well known parenting forum (naming no names) something along the lines of "Which brand of cigarettes should I make my 3 year old smoke?  She's a cute little girl, so I'm thinking more Lucky Strike than Marlbro, but torn between the cool "Cowboy/girl" vibe......................."



Haha EG, I just snarfed my coffee on that one!  Although an excellent point, thanks for bringing a bit of levity to this rather scrappy but well-intentioned and informative thread.


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## lionprincess00

From one newbie to another, I had to chime in and try to explain what I think these veterans here are trying to say (well I'm newer because I haven't made my first batch yet even! In the process of getting supplies and research research research). You say you've spent the last 8 or 9 months making lip balms, slaves, lotions, mp soaps, etc. These will be your main sellers, though you did, it would seem, mention you plan to sell your recent cp soaps that have cured 4 weeks at minimum. 

Now, since you've been doing these long lists of projects the last 8-9 months, we can all assume you have worked out things like- preservatives in your water based lotions (and slaves if applicable), so your customers don't wind up with a furry pet within a few weeks. The perfect amount of preservative (vitamin e is not a preservative so which is the best for you, etc). You've figured how to package properly to prevent sweating and such on your mp soaps, as well as potential color morphing over time so you can see what the customer will wind up with if they keep it, say a few months, before use. You've got your packaging with listed accurate ingredients, and have tested on multiple people over multiple times, these products you will mainly be selling.

If so, then I'd say go for it! You got your licenses, are trying to get insurance (...forbid an accidental allergic reaction to xyz on a customer occurred!), and you are indeed ready to sell then.

If not, then you have a ton to think about. Now.........

Adding to the mix some awesome cp soaps you made recently. You made, what was it, 8 or so batches over a very short amount of time. They all turned out awesome and are well received. Cool! The problem these lovely veteran soap makers see, as well as I, is you haven't had those awesome 8 or 9 months of experience like you say you have with the other products. Sure the lye zap test shows it isn't lye heavy, sure they're pretty and smell fantastic, but that isn't enough to start selling.
Will they develop dos, dreaded orange spots after your superfat goes rancid (ew)? How soon? 2 months, 6, 9? Just how much will they harden up over a few months opposed to 4 weeks? Will the colors hold up, the scents? Will they fade away and how fast? This one lasts a month, but this one lasts forever! See, there is too much to consider to start selling cp soap after a month of production, too much to consider even after 6 months of production. You need that first yr to crank out a ton of recipes, pick your favorite 5 or so, then start selling those the second year as you experiment with new recipes. Get 5-8 more perfect recipes and year 3 add it to your first awesome 5. If you're full time with it, then you can make more than what I recommended and have maybe 8 or 10 recipes to start selling that second year, AFTER a year of hard work NOT selling. 

It isn't about all the time, effort, and business end of it people are questioning. It isn't your hard work these last 8 or 9 months producing OTHER products, it is about selling cp soaps after a month or two of production, for the first time making it ever. 

And to answer, it doesn't sound scammy, but I'd find vendors that have done this market before and ask THEM personally their experience.


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## Shalisk

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> ....
> 
> If someone was to post on well known parenting forum (naming no names) something along the lines of "Which brand of cigarettes should I make my 3 year old smoke?  She's a cute little girl, so I'm thinking more Lucky Strike than Marlbro, but torn between the cool "Cowboy/girl" vibe......................." I can pretty much assure you that no-one will actually answer the question asked and the poster will be inundated with what they will feel are attacks.




Real thing, indonesian 2 year old.
He is like 10 now, and has quit. Jst sayin


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