# Lye Heavy? !



## MoonBath (Jan 1, 2014)

Used the soap calculator at Maple Springs as usual, superfatted at between 7-9%, and still, two weeks out, my lavender lemongrass charcoal swirl seems to behave as if it's lye- heavy. And weirdly, some pieces seem to be zapping mildly (although I might not have enough experience to know a true zap), while others don't seem to zap at all. 

What gives?? I'm at a loss.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 1, 2014)

What are you seeing when you say it's behaving as if it's lye heavy? What does that mean to you? I'm not trying to be a smarty pants ... just wondering about the specifics of what you mean.

I have to say that a zap, for me, is unmistakable. It's less of an "icky taste" kind of thing and more of an instant "ewwww!" static-shock experience. My rule of thumb is if I'm wondering ... is it a zap? no zap? ... then it's not a zap. Could be the bitterness from my fragrance. Could be the taste of the soap. But very likely not zap.

When I test a new soap, I always dampen my finger tip, rub on the soap, and touch fingertip very lightly to my tongue. Just that much of a taste will produce a "zap" if the soap is zappy, but it is small enough of a sample that the zap is reasonably tolerable and safe.

Ash on the top can sometimes be slightly zappy. You can wash or plane it off if that is an issue for you. The upper parts of a properly made soap can sometimes be slightly zappy even though the lower parts test fine. This can resolve on its own if you can give the soap enough cure time, since free alkali slowly reacts with carbon dioxide in the air. In effect, the soap will become milder just by being exposed to air.

If for some reason you didn't get the soap batter emulsified well enough or didn't get the lye particles completely dissolved, I would think the soap would show streaks of different textures or have scattered white spots where the lye particles are.


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## MirandaH (Jan 1, 2014)

I am super new and have only done 5 batches, but I am with DeeAnna on the zap thing.  I had some soap that I thought had a mild zap.  Then I made another batch later and put it in the freezer to prevent gel.  When I took it out of the freezer a few hours later, I knew it would still zap because of the short time and the freezer and decided to do a zap test to make sure I knew what a zap was and man oh man, it felt like someone had lit my tongue on fire!  I did it again with a different batch after waiting a little longer, but while it was still not ready.  It was not only a different taste, but a way different feeling, as well.  I don't know that I would recommend learning what a zap is the way I did, but I can certainly tell the difference now, without question!


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## MoonBath (Jan 1, 2014)

I guess I'm not sure if what I'm getting is a zap. It's a definite feeling, but not as electric as others describe. It's a strong, kind of silvery taste, which seems to go away as my other soaps have cured.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 1, 2014)

Mmmmmm.... I'm pretty sure that's probably not a zap you're getting, MoonBath. Not sure exactly what you're tasting, but I don't think it's a zap. Soap, even non-zapping soap, can have an odd metallic ... silvery is a good word! ... flavor. Sometimes the taste is slightly salty or salty-metallic combined. Sometimes not much flavor at all. And the taste can change with time.

A zap is like someone snapping your bare skin with a rubber band -- a clear, unmistakable, rather startling sensation. The turn of phrase "a definite feeling" is kind of an understatement when I want to describe what a zap is like.


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 3, 2014)

Chiming in here because I'm not sure I'm getting zapped either.  I've got a fresh batch right now that makes me feel like I have a copper penny in my mouth (silvery made me nod in agreement) .. icky, which is the same taste as a 9 volt (don't ask me how I know that, LOL) .. but definitely not a rubber band snap.  Mine has no fragrance or EO in it so I can't blame that.

Do I just leave it to cure longer or rebatch it?


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## Obsidian (Jan 3, 2014)

I'd leave it to cure. A zap isn't a taste, its a sharp painful sting.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 3, 2014)

The times I've gotten zapped, even mildly, my head involuntarily jerks back and I scrinch my face up in a strong "ewww!!!" reaction. It is unmistakably sharp and definite, like Obsidian said. If you find yourself wondering ... it's not a zap.

I've learned a tiny lick of the soap film on a fingertip is enough of a sample to taste. I really don't recommend taking a direct lick on a bar of soap as a first taste -- if it just so happens the soap is lye heavy, you could get a painful chemical burn on your tongue. 

If the soap isn't zappy, then, sure, it's fine to give the soap a full-on swipe with the ol' tongue. If Will, my 2 year old honorary nephew, can happily munch on my handcrafted soap when his mother's back is turned and enjoy the experience, it's probably safe for anyone!


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## Lin (Jan 4, 2014)

My dog Emma has tasted 2 bars of handmade soap. It still cracks my bf up joking around about her going "Hmmm, this smells so good! I should eat it. *bite* EWW! yuck this tastes like soap! Hmmm, maybe I should try this other one that smells so good.... *bite* EWWW! This one is gross too!" The teeth marks on both bars were the clear evidence. 

I had bought it from Chagrin Valley a few years ago, I sent them an email saying their soap smells good enough to eat, or so thinks my Emma.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 4, 2014)

I am a fan of the lather test first, then the direct lick.  But when I made my pine tar soap I had to work up the courage to taste that one - did not fancy the taste one bit, but it turned out to be tastier than I thought it would be.  Well, not as bad as I thought it would be!


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 4, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> The times I've gotten zapped, even mildly, my head involuntarily jerks back and I scrinch my face up in a strong "ewww!!!" reaction. It is unmistakably sharp and definite, like Obsidian said. If you find yourself wondering ... it's not a zap.



Okay .. I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this one.  Obviously I have a different sense of taste or zap than others.  I zap tested the carrot bastile bar again this morning and thought, "I dunno .. terrible icky-ness to it but not what I'd call a zap" .. about 10 seconds later I was running to the sink full tilt!!!  I guess my processors run a little slower, LOL!

OUCH!  My tongue is still stinging 1/2 hour later :shifty:


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## Lin (Jan 4, 2014)

I zap tested a soap early to purposefully feel the zap, but not SO early that it would be super strong. I didn't have any sort of head jerking reaction, but definitely felt the tingle/zap. What I did was lick my finger and rub it on the soap, then sorta tap tap tap very lightly on the tip of my tongue so that if it was a strong zap I'd stop after the first super light quick tap. Instead I got a tingly/static shock type feel with each tap.


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## Kansas Farm Girl (Jan 5, 2014)

So, back to the question about why you think it may be lye-heavy - I have found that when I have lye-heavy soap, not only does it zap, but parts of it are also crumbly/hard. The consistency just isn't right. For me it's typically when I am trying a swirl and one of the colors must not have gotten mixed correctly. Still trying to figure that one out. Is there something besides a possible zap that makes you think your soap may be lye-heavy?


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## MoonBath (Jan 5, 2014)

It just seemed... harsh, a bit. And there are white spots in some of the slices. But I'm fairly convinced now that it's not lye-heavy, just not what I've seen before. I appreciate the input.


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 5, 2014)

Kansas Farm Girl said:


> So, back to the question about why you think it may be lye-heavy - I have found that when I have lye-heavy soap, not only does it zap, but parts of it are also crumbly/hard.



Ok .. so while Moonbath no longer thinks her's is lye heavy I read your comment and nodded YUP.

The top of my bar is gelled and not zappy at all.  The bottom of the bar is off colour, crumbly/dryish/looks like curdled milk and IS zappy.







When this came out of the mold there was a LOT (3/4 cup?) of orange liquid in the mold.  I didn't know any better and poured it out.  I have been educated (thank you Obsidian) .. that I should have kept it for the rebatch process so now I'm wondering if I need to add more than the small amount of liquid recommended for rebatching in order to compensate for the amount lost.

ETA:  here's the thread that tells the full story on this batch http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=41216


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## Lin (Jan 5, 2014)

You definitely need to add more than liquid to rebatch a lye heavy bar, you need to add more oil to saponify the leftover lye.


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 6, 2014)

Lin said:


> You definitely need to add more than liquid to rebatch a lye heavy bar, you need to add more oil to saponify the leftover lye.



Seriously?  Everything I read said to HP it, either without adding anything or  by adding a tiny bit of water or other liquid.

I used a bit of buttermilk and carrot juice since my original recipe was buttermilk and carrots.  It gelled nice in the crock pot and is sitting in the mold again.  

Are you saying it's still going to be lye heavy and I'll have to do it again?


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## Obsidian (Jan 6, 2014)

Its possible you might have to do it again. With regular rebatch you only have to add some extra liquid but when dealing with a lye heavy batch, you usually have to add oils for the extra lye to saponify.
Since your batch is just plain weird and probably not from using too much lye, you might be ok. The fact that it gelled when cooked makes me think it simply hadn't saponified yet. What was the original SF%? Keep in mind for next time, when doing HP or lye heavy rebatch, always check for zap before molding.


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## judymoody (Jan 6, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> Seriously?  Everything I read said to HP it, either without adding anything or  by adding a tiny bit of water or other liquid.
> 
> I used a bit of buttermilk and carrot juice since my original recipe was buttermilk and carrots.  It gelled nice in the crock pot and is sitting in the mold again.
> 
> Are you saying it's still going to be lye heavy and I'll have to do it again?



If you had used all of the oozy liquid in your rebatch, then no additional ingredients would have been required except perhaps a smidge of extra water.  The problem is that your soap overheated and separated so the fluid you threw out contained a lot of oil and probably some lye solution.  There is no way to know its composition or that of the rebatched soap after the fact.  However, it's likely that in this instance your soap will be lye heavy because of the missing oil that was discarded.


For what it's worth, I have found carrot and milk soaps the most challenging because of the overheating potential.  I rebatched a couple before I got the temperatures down right.  Don't be discouraged!


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## Lin (Jan 6, 2014)

Yep, with regular rebatch when you don't like how the soap looks or feels etc you just add liquid. But if its a lye heavy batch, you need to get rid of the lye and just liquid isn't going to do that. So if your soap doesn't zap (which would probably be because the fat in the buttermilk saponified) it would still have low to no superfat most likely. So to get from a lye heavy soap to one that does not have extra lye and has extra fat, you need to add fat. So your results are going to be determined by how much extra lye was still in the soap, and how much fat is in your buttermilk. If you had just added water I'd pretty much guarantee you'd need to rebatch again. At this point, you can see how it turns out if its still zappy and then decide since its already in the mold.

If you had not thrown away the liquid, it would have been possible to rebatch with that liquid and not need additional oils.


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 6, 2014)

judymoody said:


> Don't be discouraged!



Thanks but no need to worry.  There is no such thing as discouraged in my world .. I'm a bit of a mad scientist at heart and everything is a learning opportunity.


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 6, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> What was the original SF%?



5%

Can anyone help me figure out why this batch is acting silly.  I think I might have figured it out for myself but want to see what experienced soapers say.

I used this recipe http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-b...-soap/baby-soap-buttermilk-bastille-baby-bar/

but since it's for a 2lb mold and I only have a 1lb I adjusted it by calculating the percentages of each ingredient based on total weight of all .. then put the percentages into this soap calc  http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp but using a total of 500 grams of oil.

.. here are my amounts

OO 420g
CO   80g
Buttermilk 190g
Carrot baby food (I used cooked mushed carrots) 39G
Lye 67g

What I didn't know how to do was calculate for the carrots (I didn't treat them as part of the water and I think I was supposed to do that) so I added the carrot weight to the total liquid.  I think that's where the mistake started.

THEN .. to make matters worse I got frisky with the ingredients and added more carrots when the colour wasn't as orange as I wanted it.  *hangs head in shame* .. I thought a little extra liquid wouldn't hurt .. Doah!! .. an extra 60 grams.  So if I was supposed to count carrots as water I'm actually over on water by a total of 99 grams.  

I hope you can all understand what I did.  I think that's what caused this entire mess and if that's the case what can I do to fix this? ... again, :shifty:


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## Lin (Jan 6, 2014)

Yes, I would say the carrots should have been counted as liquid. At least the amount of the carrots that IS liquid needs to be considered as such. 

For example, if you were using baby food you could have used the nutrition label to determine the amount of pure liquid and considered that as part of your total of liquid, and the rest of whats in pureed carrots would be considered a solid additive. But buy not considering them into your liquid at all, and then adding even more, yea you went WAY over. 

I recently posted a thread titled something like max amount of liquid, check out DeeAnna's response there. It discusses what I mentioned about using the nutrition label. Its what I was thinking but wanted to hear back to assure me that my thinking was right that when using water swaps that aren't pure liquid, the TOTAL weight can be higher than total water, but thats if you take the time to determine how much liquid is in the item and factor that into total water amount and consider the other ingredients as solid additives.


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## grayceworks (Jan 6, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> but since it's for a 2lb mold and I only have a 1lb I adjusted it by calculating the percentages of each ingredient based on total weight of all .. then put the percentages into this soap calc but using a total of 500 grams of oil.


 

Easier way I discovered for enlarging/reducing recipes on soapcalc.... 

Put in the original recipe amounts exactly as they are stated for the original size recipe.

Click Calculate. This will calculate your percentages for each individual oil automatically. 

THEN, just choose the little selector dot over to the percents column instead of the weight column. You can then go up to where it asks you the total weight you want the batch to be (and choose pounds, ounces or grams), and enter the new total batch weight, and click calculate. 

It will calculate all new numbers for the new weight based on the percents that you now have selected. 

Saves a lot of fiddling with the calculator.


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 6, 2014)

Since my water calc and the carrots were probably the cause .. does that mean this is not a lye heavy batch but that I probably put it to bed on false trace?  It wasn't tracing and someone suggested just get it to emulsion and mold it .. so I did.  Is that why there was all that liquid?

.. and if that's the case do I still need to rebatch it with oils or will it be fine after HP? (I guess a zap test will tell me that answer but asking anyway .. )


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## Obsidian (Jan 6, 2014)

No way to tell if its ok until you zap test it. Have you cut it yet?


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## cmzaha (Jan 6, 2014)

judymoody said:


> If you had used all of the oozy liquid in your rebatch, then no additional ingredients would have been required except perhaps a smidge of extra water. The problem is that your soap overheated and separated so the fluid you threw out contained a lot of oil and probably some lye solution. There is no way to know its composition or that of the rebatched soap after the fact. However, it's likely that in this instance your soap will be lye heavy because of the missing oil that was discarded.
> 
> As Judy mentioned you are still going to have to add in more oils for your rebatch, worst that will happen at this point is the fact you will have a high superfat. Even with saving all the liquid I would add in a little extra oil, since it will not alway pour into the crockpot. If I get a seperated batch in the mold I just dump out of the mold into the crockpot and still add in a bit of oil or milk. Also adding in extra liquid can create other scenarios, best saved for a new thread


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 6, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> No way to tell if its ok until you zap test it. Have you cut it yet?



Not yet, it's still a bit sticky in the mold so I'm thinking maybe later today.


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## judymoody (Jan 6, 2014)

It's the carrot puree - seriously.  That stuff heats up soap like nobody's business.  I attempted to make a bastille soap for a baby and added pureed carrot baby food to half so I could do a swirl.  The white part of the soap was fine.  The orange was a gooey oozing mess, rivers of orange dripping everywhere.  I had put the soap in a preheated 170 degree oven and then turned it off.  That mess went to rebatch.  Next attempt I put it in our unheated garage after pouring into the mold - it was winter and ambient temperature was probably around 50.  Much better result.

I don't think the extra carrot puree was the culprit as far as water amount is concerned.  However, as a heating element, I'm sure it contributed.  And since you threw out the 3/4 cup of oozy liquid (which in a 1 lb batch is quite a lot), I seriously doubt your rebatch is going to be safe as is.  If it still zaps, my recommendation would be to start over.  It's only a pound of oils after all.


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 6, 2014)

judymoody said:


> I seriously doubt your rebatch is going to be safe as is.  If it still zaps, my recommendation would be to start over.  It's only a pound of oils after all.



Would it be safe to chop it up and incorporate any of it into a different batch or should it go straight into the bin?

ETA:  Judy .. I'm confused about this one because this batch never got hot at all.  Usually when I'm mixing I can feel the heat through the mixing container.  This batch was cold, cold, cold and even then I wondered about it.  I used frozen buttermilk cubes and had the mixing container in an ice bath as well.  I added the carrot in after the lye had all dissolved.  Even after I put it in the mold there was no heat.  Usually I can hold my hand over the block and feel heat or there's heat condensation on the lid of my mold .. this time, nothing for either.  It's very odd and I'd love to know what really happened inside all that goo.


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## judymoody (Jan 6, 2014)

Well, if it was that cold, perhaps you got false trace?  However, as the top of your soap looks like it gelled, I still suspect that it heated up at some point in the process.  Did you insulate after pour?

I've had soap that I mixed cool and put in the frig go into complete gel so anything is possible.  Perhaps once the chemical reaction got underway it took off?  Without time lapse photography, it's difficult to say.

p.s. I checked out the original recipe and she did not say to count the carrots as part of your liquid weight.  So I don't think you erred there.

I also think that further rebatching would be an exercise in futility as you'd have a lot of guesswork involved in calculating what was lost when you threw out the oozy liquid.  It might make a good utility soap.  Lye heavy soap is great for cleaning stove grates (use gloves!)


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 6, 2014)

judymoody said:


> Did you insulate after pour?



I did  .. I use 1" hard styrofoam as a mold framework and just line it with a silicone liner.  I have another piece of styrofoam for a lid so it's well insulated.


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## Lin (Jan 6, 2014)

Pouring at emulsion itself is fine, you don't have to always wait for trace. In fact many specific design techniques require coloring and pouring at emulsion and not trace. But you got separation after pouring, which can be more likely without waiting for trace. But sounds like the cause here was the carrots. Too much liquid can also cause separation, or so I've been told when I was looking into the max amount of liquid possible to use without negative effects.


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## MzMolly65 (Jan 7, 2014)

I posted pics of it out of the mold in my thread http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=388183&postcount=23

and a couple more final pics http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=388184&postcount=24

It's not zapping but I'm really skeptical about this bar (and my ability to know what a real zap is) after the initial "not so zappy" zap.


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