# Shampoo bars



## Meena (Jan 29, 2019)

In 2013, a member @judymoody (appears not to be here any longer) wrote:

"The high pH of CP soap will tend to roughen the hair cuticle unless you follow with something acidic."

Unfortunately, my Scientific Soapmaking book hasn't arrived yet, so can someone please tell me if this would also be true for HP hair soap?  If CP is more alkaline than HP, why is that so? 

Also, does the pH of CP shampoo soap remain in a high alkaline state after cure? 

TIA!

Here's Judy's post:  
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-thanks-lindy.30946/page-12#post-329673


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## cmzaha (Jan 29, 2019)

Ph of lye soap whether cp or hp is simply to high for hair. It lifts the cuticle of the hair shaft which is why it feels rough. Following with vinegar will help lay the cuticle back down but it is still not good to use soap.

Hair ph is an average of 4.5 -5.5, so what do you think a high ph does? This is how perms and colors work. They open the hair cuticle to let in the chemicals. Just remember once hair is damaged the only fix is cutting it. Conditioners may make the hair feel smoother, but it does not fix damaged hair.

Shampoo are synthetics and soap is soap


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## Chris_S (Jan 29, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> Ph of lye soap whether cp or hp is simply to high for hair. It lifts the cuticle of the hair shaft which is why it feels rough. Following with vinegar will help lay the cuticle back down but it is still not good to use soap.
> 
> Hair ph is an average of 4.5 -5.5, so what do you think a high ph does? This is how perms and colors work. They open the hair cuticle to let in the chemicals. Just remember once hair is damaged the only fix is cutting it. Conditioners may make the hair feel smoother, but it does not fix damaged hair.
> 
> Shampoo are synthetics and soap is soap



Iv read things saying that it depends on hair type as to how well it works using a shampoo bar is this not the case? Iv been using a m+p shampoo base with what feels like equal sucess to synthetic shampoo am i missing something? I never usually used conditioner before so never done the acv rinse. I made a shampoo bar the other week and if that doesnt suit me ill just use it as a shower soap its got a high % of castor so should lather well Im aware that this is said to cause a sticky bar ect but thats part the reason i tried this recipe because i wanted to see how it worked within this recipe i just love the experimenting side


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## gloopygloop (Jan 29, 2019)

cmzaha has told it perfectly, alkaline soap and hair just don't work together, soap will damage hair almost right away and probably worse on the long term. It does not matter what oils it is made of, yes it will lather like no tomorrow and will clean your hair and scalp but at the cost of damaging your hair. I have read so many times over the years that " your hair has to get used to soap first and then it starts to feel nice" well NOT TRUE. In the old days people did use soap before there were surfactant shampoo's but they didn't wash their hair very often which would I guess have saved it a bit. Short mens hair well you could get away with it maybe but it will leave a dull film unless acid rinsed to close the cuticle. As far as M& P is concerned I dont know much about it as I have never used it but many are in fact a mix of surfactant I think, so if that is the case then it would be like a shampoo bar but as I said I dont know about M&P.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 29, 2019)

I can speak for myself and several others here who have tried it and it was a total disaster.  Doesn't matter if CP or HP the PH is too high.  I have thick somewhat curly hair.  It was to my shoulders, had to cut it off just short of a pixie.   You an surely try it but be prepared as it may not work.


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## Meena (Jan 29, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> I can speak for myself and several others here who have tried it and it was a total disaster.  Doesn't matter if CP or HP the PH is too high.  I have thick somewhat curly hair.  It was to my shoulders, had to cut it off just short of a pixie.   You an surely try it but be prepared as it may not work.



Thanks . Sounds like I haven't gotten to the part of the thread where everyone stopped raving about how fabulous these bars were. 
I certainly don't want to damage my hair.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 29, 2019)

@Meena Also, if you color your hair it will make the color fade very quickly. However, the recipe in the file make a great gentle face/body soap.


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## topred (Jan 29, 2019)

Meena said:


> Thanks . Sounds like I haven't gotten to the part of the thread where everyone stopped raving about how fabulous these bars were.
> I certainly don't want to damage my hair.


I make a shampoo bar using surfactants and if necessary,  adjust the pH. Surfactants, correctly chosen, are great for your hair. Soap, CP or HP, is not. And you can add so many lovely conditioning agents to a shampoo bar! The only limit is your imagination and your wallet!


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## gloopygloop (Jan 29, 2019)

I liked the idea of shampoo bars made with surfactants until I read that a liquid shampoo is surfactants diluted with water, as we know usually more than 50% but the bars are mostly concentrated surfactant held together sometimes by melting and or a glue such as glycerine which I understand such bars to be? The person  making and using the said bars were not at all in love with them as they were too cleansing,  stripping and harsh. It put me off going any further on that front as it did make sense to me, I am happy with liquid which I make and refill bottle, hate the thought of all those supermarket bottles being dumped after use though! But very many people adore them so there must be something good in there.


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## Dawni (Jan 29, 2019)

I've also toyed with the idea of making soap shampoo bars coz I have all these awesome herbs for it (neem, amla, shikakai, henna, etc.), and Ive tried them and seem to have worked for me but I guess I didn't use them long enough plus I don't shampoo often to notice any bad effects.

My scalp was better then than my hair, and now I'm using a syndet shampoo bar that I bought and my scalp likes it less but my hair is great. Need to find a middle ground so I'm looking into making syndets as well but the cost of additional ingredients is holding me back.

If you wanna try those @Meena there's a handful of threads with recipes and feedback on this forum too


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## Meena (Jan 29, 2019)

Dawni said:


> I've also toyed with the idea of making soap shampoo bars coz I have all these awesome herbs for it (neem, amla, shikakai, henna, etc.),
> If you wanna try those @Meena there's a handful of threads with recipes and feedback on this forum too



Thanks Dawni!   I've been reading a huge thread here, still have 25 pages to go.  I have those herbs too, and recently almost ordered honeyquat. Glad now that i didn't.   Those herbs can be used as mud packs , which i very occasionally do, due to time usually.


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## cmzaha (Jan 29, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> I liked the idea of shampoo bars made with surfactants until I read that a liquid shampoo is surfactants diluted with water, as we know usually more than 50% but the bars are mostly concentrated surfactant held together sometimes by melting and or a glue such as glycerine which I understand such bars to be? The person  making and using the said bars were not at all in love with them as they were too cleansing,  stripping and harsh. It put me off going any further on that front as it did make sense to me, I am happy with liquid which I make and refill bottle, hate the thought of all those supermarket bottles being dumped after use though! But very many people adore them so there must be something good in there.


Not sure what type of LS you are referring to, if it is handmade LS it is lye soap with an alkaline ph. The feel of surfactant based shampoo can be controlled by the type of surfactant used. 

If hair is cut regularly and keep it short you will probably be fine. Think about what happened to Chaz and his lawsuit in which he paid out a lot of money and pulled his Liquid Soap (shampoo). This was done before any proof was submitted of it being harmful or safe. He then changed his product line to a cleansing conditioner. When I first saw his line of LS for hair I told my husband there was going to be problems, and shame on him since he should have know better, and yes there was. I was still making LS (not for hair), at the time and looked up his products. They were lye based LS sold as conditioning shampoo. 

The biggest problem with making solid shampoo bars is the cost. The ingredients are not cheap, but I love my shampoo bars as does my scalp and hair. I say my scalp likes them, but sometimes my eczema just will not cooperate no matter what I use. My scalp likes salt bars but of course my hair hates them, so I only use salt bars on my scalp when it decides to break out, so fortunately I am not using them enough to damage my hair.

Shunt is very correct in her post #7 that soap will fade color. When you use soap and open the cuticle you are now washing away the color that is deposited under the cuticle. 

In the end everyone has to make up their own mind, but I would simply not sell soap as shampoo.


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## gloopygloop (Jan 29, 2019)

I didn't mean LS at all just liquid / cream surfactant in reply to topred, meaning the dilution of the surfactant down to 50% or more with water and other goodies. It was because was because of the person ( not on this forum) who'd tried their own surfactant shampoo bar and was disappointed. This sort of made sense to me as regular shampoo or my own made with lovely mild surfactants seem to clean just fine and no striping, I could see the logistic that a solid version is pretty much concentrated surfactants albeit maybe lovely and mild. For many this will work well and perhaps for those with very greasy hair and those who do not unlike myself shampoo everyday.
Think it is totally personal except Potassium LS which we all agree is not for hair !


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## Obsidian (Jan 29, 2019)

I've use syndet shampoo bars and like them very much. Yes they are concentrated but the cleansers are diluted on your head with water.

Some are harsher than others. Takes lushs for example, they are pure SLS and can be harsher. The bars I use are mild, hair and scalp like them.

As far as lye shampoo goes, add me to the list of ruined hair. It took two years for the damage to build up but when it did, I had to buzz my head. It was that bad.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 29, 2019)

Talking only about synthetic detergents here, not soap --

It's important to know how to formulate any syndet shampoo properly, whether liquid or solid. Otherwise it's very easy to end up with shampoo that's harsh and drying. If you've ever used a liquid shampoo that's all or mostly SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate), you'll know what I mean.

Because the total % of detergent is so high in a solid shampoo, it's especially important to use a blend of two or more different types of surfactants to ensure mildness. That's why many recipes for shampoo bars use combinations of SLeS and/or SCI (solid surfactants) mixed with CAPB and/or C14-C16 and/or polysorbates (liquid surfactants) rather than just one or two surfactants. And many of the better shampoo bar recipes avoid SLS entirely, because it's a strong cleanser and can be harder to "tame" down. This blending of different products is essentially the same principle as blending various fats to formulate a soap that is a mild cleanser vs one that is harsh.

I have fine hair that's getting drier with age, so it's important to me to shampoo with a mild product that doesn't strip my hair or scalp. I make my own shampoo bar and get very good results, but it's a blend of mild surfactants. I'm sure I'd hate a shampoo bar that's mostly or all SLS. 

Some shampoo bars and liquid shampoos have only one surfactant in them -- typically an inexpensive syndet such as SLS. If this type of product is a person's only experience with shampoo bars, it's no wonder they think shampoo bars are harsh. But it's unfair to judge ALL syndet shampoo bars by this one experience. It's like saying ALL lye-soap is bad after trying one badly formulated soap.


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## gloopygloop (Jan 29, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> Talking only about synthetic detergents here, not soap --
> 
> It's important to know how to formulate any syndet shampoo properly, whether liquid or solid. Otherwise it's very easy to end up with shampoo that's harsh and drying. If you've ever used a liquid shampoo that's all or mostly SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate), you'll know what I mean.
> 
> ...



Yes I think that sums it up perfectly. I personally totally understand the mixture of different surfactants in order to get a good combination of cleaning and condoning although there are those who argue that shampoo is for cleaning and condoner is for conditioning, perhaps they are right. I also discovered on my very long journey to find " The Shampoo" HA!!! that the amount of " Actives " added up among the mix is also crucial to how the shampoo behaves as in lathers, is gentle is conditioning and so on, its rather like working out allergens in Eos IMO. There has been a lot of trial and many, many errors over the years but then I like experimenting. Trying to get that Holy Grail of shampoo and yet to get it thick enough without gums settling out on the base is for another thread sometime.
 I come from three generations of hair trade and I myself have been associated for more than 45 years, it doesn't make me any kind of expert but I have tried a few things on the way. I understand the difficulties and there are a few " shampoo laws" I totally get that a bar with a combined mix of wonderful surfactants could work well, the person who's blog I read my original comments had posted their recipe which seemed to be just fine! so who knows, its very personal and their probably is no Holy Grail, just the one you personally like.


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## Meena (Jan 29, 2019)

Obsidian said:


> As far as lye shampoo goes, add me to the list of ruined hair. It took two years for the damage to build up but when it did, I had to buzz my head. It was that bad.



Oh noooooo!!  I'm so sorry you went through that!  I'll have to finish reading that thread to see where it all started falling apart, and glean what can be learned from the remainder of the posts.  In the meantime, shampoo bars have been crossed off my to-do list.


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## gloopygloop (Jan 30, 2019)

I would like to hear a side by side comparison with surfactant shampoo bar and a nice liquid shampoo to see what if any difference is made. I happened to have a regular nice quality little hotel shampoo which I thought I would try this morning since all this talk of shampoo, its hole so I imagine not the most amazing but the make is upper middle so not dishwashing type stuff. I noted that to my surplice the lather was not so great and I would need to use far more than my own home made to achieve a similar lather. It was not creamy as my own which does contain a good dollop of SCI it sort of made my hair feel hard like cheap wholesale shampoos I have bought and used way back. But the end result to be hones not much difference, I still love my own make and doubt now that I will venture into making bars but I can see their appeal.


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## Obsidian (Jan 30, 2019)

I use a ton of different commercial shampoos. Harsh cleansing ones for gunk build up, milder ones for not so dirty days and a sulfate free that has cones for when I need really gentle.

My syndet bar falls between the harshest one and the gentler one. It cleans well without stripping but its not harsh enough if my scalp is really, really oily.

I have a skin condition on my scalp that requires me to keep it really clean. The syndet does a fine job most days. If I need more, I just grab my suave clarifying shampoo.

I generally don't need a conditioner when using the syndet either unless my hair has been chemically damaged. If using commercial shampoos, I can only get away without conditioning when using the sulfate free.


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## SoaperForLife (Jan 31, 2019)

If you want a clarifying syndet, Lush's Karma Komba would definitely work.  I bought one to try and the ingredients are: Sodium Lauryl Sulfate Sodium Cocoamphoacetate Fragrance


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## Dawni (Jan 31, 2019)

My hair seems to be the type which can handle anything. Even lye soap. I've tried two different bars so far, and now two different syndets, both had/have no SLS or SLES, only SCI.

My scalp is what's making me try til I get the right one. So far, all of them are giving me itchy scalp, with some flakes, though they're not the kind that falls off into my hair. Not as bad as when I was using liquid ones made with SLS though so I figure I need the gentlest one available in our market.

I can't afford the cost it'll take to experiment so the game plan is to test other people's formulas then use whatever surfactant the winning bar has, for when I can eventually make my own lol


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## gloopygloop (Jan 31, 2019)

These are the ones which look like concentrated noodles glued together with something which looks like its Sodium Cocoamphoacitate. It certainly looks as though it would clarify but would it be harsh?


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## cmzaha (Jan 31, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> cmzaha has told it perfectly, alkaline soap and hair just don't work together, soap will damage hair almost right away and probably worse on the long term. It does not matter what oils it is made of, yes it will lather like no tomorrow and will clean your hair and scalp but at the cost of damaging your hair. I have read so many times over the years that " your hair has to get used to soap first and then it starts to feel nice" well NOT TRUE. In the old days people did use soap before there were surfactant shampoo's but they didn't wash their hair very often which would I guess have saved it a bit. Short mens hair well you could get away with it maybe but it will leave a dull film unless acid rinsed to close the cuticle. As far as M& P is concerned I don't know much about it as I have never used it but many are in fact a mix of surfactant I think, so if that is the case then it would be like a shampoo bar but as I said I don't know about M&P.


Thankyou you said it even better than I. I was going to go into that that hair condition changed considerably once shampoo came into play. Hair is dead once it has grown out of the scalp and you just cannot dead. The hair follicle is quite protected so we always have new hair coming (or at least most of us), which means hair _cannot get used to soap_.

_DeeAnna_ also clarified well, areas I did not touch on.


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## Meena (Jan 31, 2019)

Thanks, everyone, for sharing what you know about lye soap as shampoo!  I'm just dropping the idea because I've spent most of my life protecting my hair from damage.  It's usually to my waist or lower, except right now I'm growing out my hendigo color and whacked a foot off to keep the contrast down to a dull roar, but it's still precious to me (and SO).


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## SoaperForLife (Feb 2, 2019)

I am trying to figure out a recipe that allows me to go several days between shampooing.  When I wet my hair in the shower I can feel the residue from (I assume) the conditioner bar.  It has a tacky feel to it.  If I don't shampoo, it dries okay, my scalp doesn't itch and comb through is fine.  I'd also like to create a shampoo bar recipe that I don't have to follow with a conditioner.  None of this is helped by having to wear a hat of course..


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## atiz (Feb 2, 2019)

My best discovery a few years ago: I have dry hair and dry scalp, and was pretty tired of using shampoo + conditioner all the time. So tried just using conditioner, and it has been working great since. (I wash my hair every second day, usually every day in the summer, with just the conditioner. Spares a lot of time plus a lot of shampoo.... and my hair feels nice and clean.)


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## gloopygloop (Feb 2, 2019)

atiz said:


> My best discovery a few years ago: I have dry hair and dry scalp, and was pretty tired of using shampoo + conditioner all the time. So tried just using conditioner, and it has been working great since. (I wash my hair every second day, usually every day in the summer, with just the conditioner. Spares a lot of time plus a lot of shampoo.... and my hair feels nice and clean.)



To me although you are feeling the effect of non dry scalp and hair the science isnt adding up to me as  far as cleaning is concerned. 
A shampoo is mostly Anionic or Nonionic or Amphoteric with sometimes some Cationinc thrown in for good feel which is saying that some bonds with oil and some with water  they work together and attach to the oil which would be holding any unwanted properties and happily rinse away with the water ( very basic unscientific attempt to get point over ) A conditioner is as far as I am aware Cationic and leave behind their positive charge which is what conditions the hair or gives it that slip. So that is why I cant see that conditioner can " clean " hair despite it feeling nice to you, but maybe as you wash regularly there isnt a build up and so requires very little actual cleansing and enough is achieved?
Point taken that many shampoos can be itchy and drying which is why many of us make otherwise its a hunt to find " that" shampoo, but manufactureres tend to put profit first on the most part.


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## atiz (Feb 2, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> To me although you are feeling the effect of non dry scalp and hair the science isnt adding up to me as  far as cleaning is concerned.
> A shampoo is mostly Anionic or Nonionic or Amphoteric with sometimes some Cationinc thrown in for good feel which is saying that some bonds with oil and some with water  they work together and attach to the oil which would be holding any unwanted properties and happily rinse away with the water ( very basic unscientific attempt to get point over ) A conditioner is as far as I am aware Cationic and leave behind their positive charge which is what conditions the hair or gives it that slip. So that is why I cant see that conditioner can " clean " hair despite it feeling nice to you, but maybe as you wash regularly there isnt a build up and so requires very little actual cleansing and enough is achieved?
> Point taken that many shampoos can be itchy and drying which is why many of us make otherwise its a hunt to find " that" shampoo, but manufactureres tend to put profit first on the most part.


Well, I don't quite understand why it works either. But it does; I tend to be a pretty clean person and would definitely not run around with dirty-feeling scalp/hair. Yes, I guess the water cleans it just enough (my hair is really fine too, and I have never had oil build-up on my scalp, so probably that's part of it).
Just thought I'd mention it so that if anyone has fine, dry hair, it might be worth a try.


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## gloopygloop (Feb 2, 2019)

atiz said:


> Well, I don't quite understand why it works either. But it does; I tend to be a pretty clean person and would definitely not run around with dirty-feeling scalp/hair. Yes, I guess the water cleans it just enough (my hair is really fine too, and I have never had oil build-up on my scalp, so probably that's part of it).
> Just thought I'd mention it so that if anyone has fine, dry hair, it might be worth a try.



Some things just dont add up in the petri dish or on paper they just work and if it works it works. Totally see that having fine hair and very regular washing would make a difference too, you seem to have got the balance right and that is the main thing. Its all very well we can have the most squeaky clean hair but want to tear the skin off of our scalps!!!!! not much point in that!!!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 2, 2019)

The use of conditioner as a cleanser adds up for me, so I'll try to explain.

Conditioners contain various emulsifiers, often but not necessarily cationic. Synthetic detergents (which can be cationic, anionic, nonionic, and/or amphoteric) and soap (cationic) are also emulsifiers. The job of an emulsifier is to bond with water and with fats. The net effect is to make fats essentially water soluble so they rinse off the hair or skin more easily. The fats can be included as part of the product or they can be the natural fats produced by your skin and hair follicles.

I imagine conditioners that are high in fat might not do a very good job as a "shampoo" if you want to use it that way, but it's not a universal thing that conditioners have a high % of fat. You can buy or make conditioners that have little or no added fats. Cleansers (syndets and soap) may contain less fat, although that varies too. But all these products emulsify which means at least some of the fat on your hair or skin will rinse off.


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## gloopygloop (Feb 3, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> The use of conditioner as a cleanser adds up for me, so I'll try to explain.
> 
> Conditioners contain various emulsifiers, often but not necessarily cationic. Synthetic detergents (which can be cationic, anionic, nonionic, and/or amphoteric) and soap (cationic) are also emulsifiers. The job of an emulsifier is to bond with water and with fats. The net effect is to make fats essentially water soluble so they rinse off the hair or skin more easily. The fats can be included as part of the product or they can be the natural fats produced by your skin and hair follicles.
> 
> I imagine conditioners that are high in fat might not do a very good job as a "shampoo" if you want to use it that way, but it's not a universal thing that conditioners have a high % of fat. You can buy or make conditioners that have little or no added fats. Cleansers (syndets and soap) may contain less fat, although that varies too. But all these products emulsify which means at least some of the fat on your hair or skin will rinse off.



This does make sense and one can see how it potentially could offer gentle cleansing if its a basic emulsifier / water type conditioner, I suppose it won't remove last weeks chip fat but yes I see it certainly could remove gentle deposits of oil etc. by emulsifying them for removal. Its an interesting new way to look at conditioners, why and how they work


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## DeeAnna (Feb 3, 2019)

I'd guess a person would have to experiment with different conditioners to see which one works best as a conditioner-as-shampoo. If I wanted a DIY solution and didn't have a commercial product I wanted to dupe, I'd start with a very simple, super basic homemade oil-free conditioner. Probably something like BTMS emulsifier paired with a thickener/stabilizer such as cetyl alcohol, plus water and preservative. If that worked okay, then I'd fancy it up from there.


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## MGM (Feb 3, 2019)

It seems to me that skin and hair are wildly different... Just like body shapes ; I can't wear what some girls wear and my skin and hair don't do what other people's might. One thing tho... "squeaky clean" is definitely not natural. It's a Western construct and while it might help us live in society better (or worse ; I could argue it either way)  it's definitely not the way our bodies are meant to be. But it does sell product!


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