# Anybody ever try using "exotic" additives for their cleansing soap?



## kagey (Aug 21, 2021)

In specific - I'm looking at adding one or more of these at trace (prolly not all for the same bar of soap)
magnisium hydroxide
aluminum hydroxide
beta cyclodextrin
sulfur (or sulphur)

(I'm hoping @DeeAnna our resident chemist my chime in!)

I'm on a mission to extract certain stubborn oils from your hands - and it seems that no matter how "cleansing" my fatty oils are, they don't totally work. So, I'm looking at additives.
So far I've tried bentonite clay and activated charcoal with limited success... 

Any thoughts?


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## Obsidian (Aug 21, 2021)

Magnesium will cause a ton of soap or even the soap to loose cohesion and fall apart.

Aluminum will react with the lye and produce toxic fumes and excessive heat.

I add cornmeal to my gardener soap, it helps remove grease and set in dirt.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 21, 2021)

I second what Obsidian said.

Sulfur is a medicinal ingredient that should be used on the skin for specific reasons, not for general handwashing or bathing. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone tout it for cleaning greasy, grimy hands. In addition, sulfur can leave a lingering objectionable odor on the skin.

@earlene makes a soap with borax that works well for grimy blacksmith's hands.

I know nothing about beta cyclodextrin.

If you want targeted advice, you should be more specific about the "certain stubborn oils" you have in mind.


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## AliOop (Aug 21, 2021)

What superfat and what oils are you using? Whether liquid or bar soap, 100% CO with 0% superfat will strip so much oil it will get your skin peeling, guaranteed.


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## lsg (Aug 22, 2021)

I use finely ground coffee in my mechanics soap.


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## kagey (Aug 22, 2021)

Thanks all for your replies! Especially @DeeAnna - your wisdom has been invaluable.

Just so you don't think I'm one of those crackpots -- I seriously have found soaps that have magneisum and sulfur in them... as well as soaps with epsom salt! So it can be done... now whether or not it will perform is another story...

a few examples:




__





						EnviroKlenz Odor Neutralizing Bar Soap | EnviroKlenz
					






					enviroklenz.com
				











						10% Sulfur & 3% Salicylic Acid Body and Facial Bar Soap - DermaHarmony
					

10% Sulfur & 3% Salicylic Acid Body and Facial Bar Soap - sulfur salicylic acid soap




					www.dermaharmony.com
				











						Epsom Salt Bar Soap | Grandpa Soap Co.
					

Pure Epsom salt and baking soda remove dirt, grease and grime and leave skin feeling cleansed and soothed.




					grandpasoap.com
				




Although sulfur soap at 10%+ is advertised as medicinal for acne, I've read that in some countries, sulfur soap is quite common. I would not be using it at 10%. (Heck, may not even use it at all!)

I also have no qualm in making hot process soap (or M&P) to allow the lye to fully saponify before adding a possible oil-absorbing additives. So, all my questions don't necessarily pertain to CP soapmaking.

Thank you @Obsidian for your recommendation of _cornmeal_.
I've used cornstarch and baking soda -- but did not consider cornmeal. Will give it a shot.

Thanks @lsg for your reco of coffee grounds.
I have made a loaf using it (see photo below) - and found it to be a good exfoilant. But it doesn't have the absorption properties that I'm looking for.

I've resisted using Borax (used in @earlene 's mechanic soap), but will be trying to see if it can improve my formula. (My past experience with borax as a kid left a negative impression.)

Thanks @AliOop for 0% SF coconut soap reco. I will try this, and also experiment with creating 100% oil, 0% SF with my other cleansing oils to see if they perform better. Murumuru and Babassu oils have a better "total score" than coconut... meaning they have more and a wider variety of fatty acids which, on paper, seems to fulfill what I'm looking for.

In addition to borax & cornmeal, I'm considering using Kieselguhr, Fuller's Earth and maybe even urea. Beta cyclodextrin is an ingredient that's supposedly in Febreeze which envelops certain molecules... I don't know if it will work, but I've seen that it's used in oral medicine and food products.

Like I said, I'm on a mission!

I'm also looking at using oils with longer carbon chains -- as well as the extreme opposite (like Babassu & Murumuru [an oil so amazing they named it twice!]) -- I'm having to relearn chemistry to approach this problem from a molecular level! Who thought doing this could be so complicated!

Anyway - I'm starting to walk away from loaf soap and to make my experiments less costly, will be making smaller batches. Will be happy to post if anyone's interested.


BTW - I found a great resource for learning about cosmetic additives that seems non-biased:




__





						Homepage - Cosmetics Info
					






					cosmeticsinfo.org


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## DeeAnna (Aug 22, 2021)

I don't think anyone is saying you CAN'T make soap with calcium, magnesium or sulfur. Just that there are definite downsides to these ingredients as soap additives, especially when making hand crafted soap using typical CP or HP methods. Many of the commercial makers who use these ingredients are milling them into the finished soap. Milling (aka French milling) is not a technique most handcrafters have available to them.


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 22, 2021)

Calcium and magnesium soaps are very widespread – it's that sticky goo around your sink that's called _soap scum_. In bulk, it makes up a disgusting slime that is nearly impossible to wash off skin, pretty much the opposite of what (sodium/potassium) soap is usually used for. It feels like a mix of snot, glue, and half-cured silicone rubber.

Aluminium soaps are in technical use, e. g. as a component of the glorious stuff with which the West brought peace and civilisation to Vietnam. It's simple to make (from liquid soap and alum), but I haven't deliberately made it by myself to test what it is like; and I have little intention to do so – from what I've read it's probably quite similar to Ca/Mg soap.

Plus, all these metal hydroxides are much weaker bases than NaOH or KOH, so they won't react with oils as much as conventional lye does.

With cyclodextrin, my guess would be it's mostly like sugar/starch, i. e. some increased lather/solubility, maybe a colour shift, but nothing justifying the price of cyclodextrin to put into a wash-off product.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 24, 2021)

kagey said:


> I'm on a mission to extract certain stubborn oils from your hands


As @DeeAnna mentioned, it would be helpful to know what "stubborn oils" we are addressing? For example, on another thread, I mentioned that straight olive oil will remove waterproof mascara and a ballpoint pen ink mark from a silk blouse. Sweet Orange EO will remove the sticky stuff left behind when you take the label off a jar and want to re-purpose it.

The concept is "oil on oil" works. Maybe, instead of soap, you need a scrub like mixing fine pumice (or coarse salt), almond oil (or oil of choice), and orange or other EO? 

ETA: Have you tried *LAVA HEAVY DUTY HAND CLEANER SOAP*? I imagine that would be easy to duplicate if it works for you.


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## kagey (Aug 24, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> The concept is "oil on oil" works.


Yep -- thans for your thoughts.
That's why I'm looking into Superfatting as well as what oils for the base formula.

Am familiar with LAVA -- they put Petrolatum in it. I'm trying to keep my bars "all natural" as in no petroleum products. 

I don't really think I need an exfoilant (pumice, walnut shells, coffee grounds, etc) as much as something that would either absorb oils, neutralize them (milks maybe?) break down/"cleave" molecules into different compounds (like an enzyme) or something that might microencapsulate the oil... and allow it to be washed away.

when you start to look at cosmetics and cleaning products at a molecular level, it gives you a whole new appreciation for these chemical companies and genius behind the brands.

Did you know that there's more than one type of Bentonite Clay?


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## earlene (Aug 25, 2021)

What I use that works best for my brother the blacksmith, better than Lava and better than if only one or the other ingredient is included in the soap is bar soap that includes both Borax AND Pumice.

For 32 ounces of oils (900 grams of oil), 2.2 ounces of Borax (62 grams of Borax), 3 Tablespoons (33 grams) Pumice. I also use dual lye (95% NaOH+ 5% KOH).  I have added Honey to increase bubbles, but that really isn't necessary if your oils are high in cleansing oils.  The oils used can be what you prefer, but when I make the soap this way for my brother, it removes the stains that blacksmithing produces the same day he washes.  All other soaps, including industrial strength mechanic soaps take a full 5 days or more of scrubbing before his hands look normal again.  Then he works in the blacksmith shop and has to start all over again.

My husband prefers this to any others he has tried after working on the cars (he does almost all of the maintenance on our vehicles.)

The oils I have used have included animal fats sometimes and sometimes not.  Even with a cleansing number of only 14, this combination in soap works wonders from the point of view of the men in my life who get greasy and grimy. 

Some people have a problem with using Borax in hand soap, but you can make up your own mind on that issue.  The reason I used it was because when I searched the Blacksmith forums for how they cleaned their hands, the best thing some had found for them was straight Borax. It's also used in the blacksmithing process for many things that they do, so I had no doubt that my brother would balk at it as an additive.

The Borax has to be dissolved in hot water prior to mixing into the soap batter.  Deduct the water from what is used for lye solution.  The pumice should be added when the batter is at a thick enough trace that it won't sink the the bottom of the mold. (So not at thin trace.)

There is a thread about my blacksmith soap, but the attached recipe had the wrong amount of Borax, which I later explained on page 3 of that thread.  Perhaps the next time I make a batch, I'll post a new thread & link to it in the old thread for clarity.


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## AliOop (Aug 25, 2021)

Thank you @earlene for sharing your recipe! What grade of pumice do you use:  medium, fine, extra fine?


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 25, 2021)

earlene said:


> here is a thread about my blacksmith soap, but the attached recipe had the wrong amount of Borax, which I later explained on page 3 of that thread.



*BORAX HAND SOAP FOR BLACKSMITH OR OTHER DIRTY WORK*


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 25, 2021)

kagey said:


> Am familiar with LAVA -- they put Petrolatum in it. I'm trying to keep my bars "all natural" as in no petroleum products.


You may find this helpful, assuming "Petrolatum" is aka "Vaseline"
*DIY HOMEMADE VASELINE SUB FOR PETROLEUM JELLY*

As for the rest of the ingredients, go to the *Recipe Feedback Forum* for help in duplicating the formula.
SOURCE: _https://files.wd40.com/pdf/Lava_Bar_Whats_In_It.pdf_






kagey said:


> Did you know that there's more than one type of Bentonite Clay?


Yes, but I'm not sure that is germane to this discussion.

What IS germane, is the "certain stubborn oils" you seem reluctant to identify. Not being snippy, just wondering WHY ???  Providing that information would help us to help you.


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## SoapDaddy70 (Aug 25, 2021)

I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that if you are looking to add all these type of "exotic" additives, wouldn't it just be easier to buy a specific soap targeted to your needs. The beauty of an artisan soap recipe is in it's simplicity - lye solution plus oils equals soap.


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## AliOop (Aug 25, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> *BORAX HAND SOAP FOR BLACKSMITH OR OTHER DIRTY WORK*


Thanks, I read that thread but never saw anything about the grade of pumice. There is a tremendous difference in scratchiness between extra fine, fine, regular, and coarse. Hopefully @earlene can let us know which one she has used that has worked so well in her bars.


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## kagey (Aug 25, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> I am going to play devil's advocate here and say that if you are looking to add all these type of "exotic" additives, wouldn't it just be easier to buy a specific soap targeted to your needs.



The thing is: there's no current soap on the market made for this problem. Hence, my reluctance to discuss exactly what I'm trying to accomplish with my formula. (I don't know if it's impossible to solve or if it's just something that's so niche - it isn't worth the investment by large corporations.) I promise I'll reveal more once I've gotten closer to cracking this nut.



SoapDaddy70 said:


> The beauty of an artisan soap recipe is in it's simplicity - lye solution plus oils equals soap.


IMHO, the beauty of artisan soaps is the customizability... especially the formulas.
There are handmade soaps out there for eczema, acne, ashen skin and more... made for campers, gardners, even blacksmiths... using unique ingredients like hemp oil, goat's milk, sulphur, colloidal oatmeal, borax... (things the soaping companies aren't doing).

I dig all the lines, layers, swirls, woodgrain technique, etc. that YouTube soapmakers are doing -- but as a guy, what I care most about are the "practical" applications: 
can it get all the funk of sweat, dirt and humidity off my skin? 
Will it remove the smell of fish guts, squid, mussels or clams from my hands? 
Does it leave me feeling clean & refreshed?

Without really realizing it, I've been collecting a "wish list" of things I wanted my soaps to do. for example: H2O used to make an amazing "cooling" shower soap that they discontinued. I've kept the last bottle of shower gel in a drawer for 20 years. (Turns out they used pennyroyal in it!) Now, I can try to recreate this recipe (without harmful EOs). A great summertime soap...

Now, armed with the knowledge shared here and on YouTube and blogs, I can take a shot and creating soaps that tackle the issues that I believe are problematic. (again, who knows if they really are?)



Zany_in_CO said:


> Yes, but I'm not sure that is germane to this discussion.


Ahh, but it is. 
There's sodium bentonite, calcium bentonite, magnesium bentonite and potassium bentonite... only one works best at absorbing oils. Did you know that most soap suppliers don't even know the difference?

Anyway - I digress...
I'm planning on creating a master batch of soap batter soon and adding specific additives at trace into each individual bar... something like what Soap & Clay does here:


(nice video BTW)
or an updated version of this:








						Lather Lovers: Additive Testing
					






					www.modernsoapmaking.com
				




I'd be happy to post results to those interested (or create a new thread to talk more about this experiment). 

As always -- _many thanks to all who generously share their experience and knowledge on these forums._
I would not be making such giant strides in my soaping journey without you guys.


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## paradisi (Aug 25, 2021)

You're planning to share a percentage of your profits & royalties from the secret  soap you plan to market after using all the generous expertise and technical advice given to you here, right?  Since it's their knowledge and work you'd be using?


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## AliOop (Aug 25, 2021)

I second @paradisi 's post!

Also, while it is true that there are hand-crafted soaps which advertise as being effective for acne, eczema, and other skin problems, most if not all of those are marketed in flagrant violation of testing and labeling laws that prohibit such marketing.

So if you are really interested in marketing a soap that solves a specific problem - other than getting clean - you should research the laws and regulations that apply to your geographic area.


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## kagey (Aug 25, 2021)

paradisi said:


> You're planning to share a percentage of your profits & royalties from the secret soap you plan to market after using all the generous expertise and technical advice given to you here, right?


yes -- I plan on becoming a lifetime supporter here once I turn a profit.


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## kagey (Aug 25, 2021)

AliOop said:


> if you are really interested in marketing a soap that solves a specific problem - other than getting clean - you should research the laws and regulations that apply to your geographic area.



I've worked in the advertising business for more than 20 years -- so I'm quite familiar with the laws.
But more than that: I'm seeking to formulate my soaps to solve specific issues that can be scientifically tested and assessed (hence the reason I'm soaping at all!)
so don't worry about me being one of those soapers that make all kinds of soaping claims based on the EO that supposedly do this and that. I plan on running an honest advertising campaign.


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## AliOop (Aug 25, 2021)

kagey said:


> I've worked in the advertising business for more than 20 years -- so I'm quite familiar with the laws.
> But more than that: I seeking to formulate my soaps to solve specific issues that can be scientifically tested and assessed (hence the reason I'm soaping at all!)
> so don't worry about me being one of those soapers that make all kinds of soaping claims based on the EO that supposedly do this and that. I plan on running an honest advertising campaign.


Yes, I was worried about that! Thanks for confirming your intent to do it the right way.


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## paradisi (Aug 25, 2021)

kagey said:


> yes -- I plan on becoming a lifetime supporter here once I turn a profit.


No, I mean share the profits with the people who will have made your product possible, if you ever do take one to market, not just making a tax deductible donation to a website (as good as that would be to do!).

"I'm not sharing my info with you until after I've patented something using your ideas and years of research instead of doing my own" isn't a great way to approach people.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 25, 2021)

kagey said:


> as a guy, what I care most about are the "practical" applications:
> can it get all the funk of sweat, dirt and humidity off my skin?
> Will it remove the smell of fish guts, squid, mussels or clams from my hands?
> Does it leave me feeling clean & refreshed?


Ah, now we are getting somewhere... but it can wait until you give your clay soap a go. That just may do the trick for you.

GOOD LUCK & HAPPY SOAPING!


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## kagey (Aug 25, 2021)

paradisi said:


> "I'm not sharing my info with you until after I've patented something using your ideas and years of research instead of doing my own" isn't a great way to approach people.


I don't think I've requested that anybody share a "secret" that's patentable or required years of research to steal for my own selfish purpose. And I'm pretty sure nobody has either.

To date, I have spent no less than 320 hours per month combing through forum threads, YouTube videos, published research papers, chemistry theories, re-learning molecular chemistry, reading newspaper articles as well as experimenting with various fatty oils and soap additives. And  I have always offered to share my learnings as others have kindly shared with me.

If you take a deep dive into any famous inventor -- no breakthrough discovery has not been built on the back of those who went before them. Not Madame Curie. Not Jonas Salk. Not Louis Pasteur. Even Augusto Odone based his discovery from the works of medical papers he read. This is what it means to be part of a society. We gift to others what learn today so that those after us can have a head start.

If @Obsidian 's cornmeal, or @earlene 's borax or @lsg & @Zing 's coffee grounds turn into that magic ingredient that turns my soaping formula into a marketable winner and I'm able to turn this experiment into a Dr. Squatch empire -- then, I'll be happy to talk to them offline about compensating them fairly for their contribution. My soaping journey is transparent and easily documentable.

Having said that - I'm constantly surprised by the naysayers on this forum who are happy to tell me that I'm doing it all wrong but don't offer constructive criticism to the ingredients, approach or solution. In fact, @paradisi I don't recall you sharing anything in my threads that's been remotely useful.

If you don't want to share what works for you which you might think solves my problems, I'm okay with that. No one is twisting anybody's arm. If you're intrigued by my mission and want to be part of my soaping team, feel free to reach out to my offline to discuss a possible business relationship.

Just know that should things go well (which odds are, they won't), you can bet that I'll remember those like @Zany_in_CO and @DeeAnna, who have been nothing but friendly and helpful. And to them - I say "Thank you for making the soaping journey more pleasant. I wish there were more people like you!"


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## Obsidian (Aug 25, 2021)

@kagey I went through my notes and I used cream of wheat, not cornmeal for my kitchen hand soap.
Its a really nice scrubby on the hands without being overly scratchy.


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## kagey (Aug 25, 2021)

Ha - ha!
Too late -- bought some cornmeal and also found some flax seed meal.
Worse case, they help anchor the scents and maybe even provide some exfoilient.
Best case - they absorb the oil and leave your hands clean.
I'll know in a few days when I soap up a batch.

May look into cream of wheat in my next batches.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 25, 2021)

kagey said:


> to them - I say "Thank you for making the soaping journey more pleasant. I wish there were more people like you!"


Like most folks on SMF, I am nothing if not an enabler!


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## AliOop (Aug 25, 2021)

@kagey don't forget me! I suggested 100% CO remember? and researching labeling laws?   

I'm banking on you making it so big that a mere token "thank you" payment will fund the lifestyle to which I wish to become accustomed.  ✈🏝


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## lenarenee (Aug 25, 2021)

How about a cleansing balm made with an emulsifier like polysorbate to apply to oily hands instead, before washing?  I love poly to get substantial grease stains out of clothing.


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## kagey (Aug 25, 2021)

I planned on using polysorbate 80 when I moved on to creating bath bombs (a much later project)... but havent thought about using it in my kitchen hand soap bar. I think it's mostly used to get oils and water to play nicely together in a mixture. Putting it into a soap bar with nothing to blend with seems odd... but maybe something to look at...
thanks for the suggestion @lenarenee


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## earlene (Aug 26, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Thank you @earlene for sharing your recipe! What grade of pumice do you use:  medium, fine, extra fine?



I used the finest grade sold by the vendor at the time.  I believe it was FF grade @ Making Cosmetics (*link*) if that is what they were selling at the time (my past orders do not show on their current website). A finer grade is available @ Save on Citric's site (FFF grade pumice).  

I recommended buying the finest grade you can find in this post (a different thread.)


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## AliOop (Aug 26, 2021)

earlene said:


> I used the finest grade sold by the vendor at the time.  I believe it was FF grade @ Making Cosmetics (*link*) if that is what they were selling at the time (my past orders do not show on their current website). A finer grade is available @ Save on Citric's site (FFF grade pumice).
> 
> I recommended buying the finest grade you can find in this post (a different thread.)


Perfect, thank you so much! Having read your prior posts about how sensitive your skin is to scratchy ingredients, I was guessing that was the case. But since the soap was made for other folks, I didn't want to assume.


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## earlene (Aug 26, 2021)

@kagey, Thank you for crediting borax to me, but I am definitely not the first person who has ever used it in bar soap. What works best in tmy  blacksmith soap is the combination of both Borax AND the pumice.  As far as I know (but I could be entirely wrong), I did come up with that on my own.  But 'there is nothing new' under the sun & all that.

If I didn't want to share, I wouldn't.  No worries. 

Oh, and even if Obsidian did not use cornmeal, someone has.  I've seen it recommended in various places for creating an exfoliating soap.

Question: when you say you want certain oils to be removed, do you mean the smells of those oils, rather than the oily feel?  I think those are somewhat different goals/functions and may require different solutions/ingredients.

For example, getting the smell of fish guts (or onions or garlic or whatever the offending odor may be) doesn't always happen even when the hands have been thoroughly cleaned. Sometimes I want to get the smell of the SOAP off my hands (LS in public restrooms, for example) and not have to smell that stuff for the next couple of hours!

I believe the approach for odor removal is a different subject altogether.

There was mention of PS80.  I love that stuff for stain removal when laundering, even with old set-in stains.  I have used it in LS, but never thought of, nor heard mention of using it in bar soap (not saying it hasn't been done, though.)  It would be interesting to know your results if you ever do try it in bar soap.


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## lenarenee (Aug 26, 2021)

kagey said:


> I planned on using polysorbate 80 when I moved on to creating bath bombs (a much later project)... but havent thought about using it in my kitchen hand soap bar. I think it's mostly used to get oils and water to play nicely together in a mixture. Putting it into a soap bar with nothing to blend with seems odd... but maybe something to look at...
> thanks for the suggestion @lenarenee



I don't think it would work in a bar soap. It would have to be a separate product.

But knows; maybe there's a new class of emulsifiers out there that would.  Also....look at adding a detergent to your soap recipe. There's been some new fangled and rather nice ones available the past few years.


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## kagey (Aug 26, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> Also....look at adding a detergent to your soap recipe


I like the way you think.
I'll be using Borax as well as Sodium Carbonate ("Washing Soda") in my test batch.
I'm not too keen on using petroleum-based or sophisticated chemical additives to my soaps. (I'll leave that for Procter & Gamble.) But who knows? I going down the line exploring natural and obvious choices -- and as I eliminate them as ineffective, look at what else is available.


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## lenarenee (Aug 26, 2021)

kagey said:


> I like the way you think.
> I'll be using Borax as well as Sodium Carbonate ("Washing Soda") in my test batch.
> I'm not too keen on using petroleum-based or sophisticated chemical additives to my soaps. (I'll leave that for Procter & Gamble.) But who knows? I going down the line exploring natural and obvious choices -- and as I eliminate them as ineffective, look at what else is available.



Not all detergents are petroleum based. Sodium gluconate is one.Some are coconut based and one comes from apples, although I don’t know if there are other components.


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## Nona'sFarm (Aug 27, 2021)

Know I'm late to join the conversation, but now I am very curious by some of the discussion. In my mind, if you are trying to clean some type of stubborn oil off of your skin, you would need a super cleanser. Something that lathered well and stripped off oil like a high coconut oil soap like @AliOop suggested. I have not tried dual lye soaps, but I understand they really lather well.  If you are trying to clean off ground in dirt or oily dirt, then you might want to add something like pumice like @earlene suggested. My favorite exfoliants are crushed walnuts and green zeolite clay. 
Oh and by the way, some people, like me, are allergic to sulfur; so hopefully your soap ingredients list will be easy to read.
Anyway, have fun. Let us know how it goes.


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## kagey (Aug 27, 2021)

Nona'sFarm said:


> My favorite exfoliants are crushed walnuts and green zeolite clay.


better late than never!   besides this will be an ongoing missoin!

Yeah - got zeolites on my radar. 
Waiting for Amazon to deliver my 3X Activated Pure Zeolite Clinoptilolite.
It's supposed to be good for absorbing oil...
between this (if and when it arrives), a couple of different versions of Bentonite clay, cornmeal, borax, sodium carbonate, beta cyclodextrin and some other possible additives.

Although I don't think an exfoliant is necessary to remove this oil. 
I either need something that absorbs it, neutralizes it (breaks it down into other compounds) or somehow encapsulates it and allows it to be washed away.

BTW, I love crushed walnuts as an exfoliant. It's in the St. Ives facial scrub I occassionally use.

Since my soaps have a high cleansing number (30+) they also produce a whole lot of lather.
So much, that I could probably shave with them.
I don't think lather or bubbles is my issue... it seems to be more of a "chemistry problem."
So I'm devoting part of my research time re-learning organic chemistry... smh!

Here's something I learned as I was studying the soap calculator numbers:
you know how I said that most soap fatty acids total 96-98?
and how if you make palmatic or stearic more, that number has to come from one of the other acids?
well, I took it a step further and simply added all the acid numbers for each oil.
And to my surprise, they're all over the place!
If you use MuruMuru Butter or Grapeseed Oil - their total scores are 100.
But if you use Coconut Oil -- it's total score is 89!

What does that mean?
Well, to me, it means that if you have the choice between Murumuru or Coconut Oil as your hard "cleansing" oil -- murumuru will contribute more to the Palmitic, Oleic and Linoleic totals -- thus (theoretically) producing more bubbles, lather AND conditioning. Making it a better choice (if cost was no issue).
if the amount of fatty acids per ounce of oil indeed produce results as the Soap Calc predicts.... shouldn't we be all only be using oils that can give us the highest scores?
wouldn't we all want are soap to be the creamiest, bubbliest and most conditioning bars of soap?

anyway...

Thanks for your suggestion.
Will post test results after my soaps are made.


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 28, 2021)

kagey said:


> But if you use Coconut Oil -- it's total score is 89!
> 
> What does that mean?


It means that you have discovered that coconut oil contains significant amounts of “minor fatty acids”, that rarely appear in the FA profile but do consume lye like any other FA.

In case of coconut (and other lauric oils to some degree as well), these minor FAs are the mid-chain fatty acids (caproic, caprylic, capric acid – cf. “MCT oil”, “neutral oil”, or “fractionated coconut”). They are part of the reason why the SAP of coconut oil is so high. With lye, they produce soap-like sodium salts; reports disagree if such MCT soaps a marvellous addition to soap, neutral/useless, or even detrimental (major skin irritants).

Look up Abyssinian oil for a more dramatic example (numbers add up to mere 38, still it's an ordinary oil without excessive unsaponifiables – in this case, soap calculators miss erucic acid).
Lye calculators are lazy to some degree, and the “property numbers” they give are not always accurate and misleading at times – FWIW, that's not a fundamental flaw, because too much “number trust” isn't sensible at all due to natural variability in FA profiles, lye purity, etc.


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## kagey (Aug 28, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> It means that you have discovered that coconut oil contains significant amounts of “minor fatty acids”, that rarely appear in the FA profile but do consume lye like any other FA.


yeah - I have seen in technical papers how they mention other fatty acids in oils.
but have yet to see how or if they're valuable unless when consumed.



ResolvableOwl said:


> reports disagree if such MCT soaps a marvellous addition to soap, neutral/useless, or even detrimental (major skin irritants).


so, if these minor fatty acids have yet to be recognized as contributing to a "better soap" - shouldn't we, then, choose our oils based on how well they perform in the "major fatty acid" realm? (Seriously asking. I'm a newbie who using a very logical approach to making soaps.)


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## kagey (Sep 11, 2021)

opening new thread on "lye-based soaps" forum to discuss additives I used and results:






						results from testing clays and additives
					

26 hours after soaping - I'm unmolding the soaps. This is what they look like. Top left is #1. Followed by #2 & #3. Next row is #4 and so on.  I created my batch of C34 (cleansing) soap batter. Poured it into the mold. Then, added approx ⅛ tspn of additive. And, if any, 1 tspn of EO. Mixed...




					www.soapmakingforum.com


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