# Preservatives required in everything with water???



## cdc (May 16, 2009)

Hi!

I have been seeing a bunch of people selling different products, and it has got me thinking about preservatives.    Can you tell me if these products will require preservatives, and if there are any natural preservatives that work?   Does Tea Tree oil or Vit E or GSE work in these?

Lanolin Spray, with water and Lanolin + EO.
Brown sugar scrub with salt?

Thanks!!!!


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## Guest (May 16, 2009)

_(inflammatory/trolling posts will be removed by SMF Admin)_


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## heartsong (May 16, 2009)

*x*

  hi there!

www.lotioncrafter.com is a great site with a lots of info.  if you have any questions, they're always helpful, especially with us beginners!

they have nice quality and unique supplies.


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## IrishLass (May 17, 2009)

WaterWitch said:
			
		

> First, why in the world would anyone want to spray lanolin on themselves??  Sounds like a rash waiting to happen.



She might not be making it to spray on herself. There are _lots and lots_ of lanolin sprays on the market that are used for the care and upkeep of  products made of wool. There's actually quite a market for them. But there are also many lanolin products made for the body as well. Some people do very well using lanolin products on their skin. Like all ingredients, it all depends on individual sensitivities if one will get a rash or not.


cdc- I agree with heartsong. Lotioncrafters is an excellent site for learning about preservatives and what products to use them in. I've found Jenny of LotionCrafters to be very friendly and helpful with my own questions, as well as prompt in her answers.

Another excellent site for preservative info is this one:

http://southernsoapers.com/news/?p=477

You can add Tea Tree Oil and Vit. E and GSE to any of your products, but I've learned that they are not considered to be sufficient enough in water based B&B products to retard all the different bacterias, molds and fungi that can invade such  products. Instead, they are used mostly for their anti-oxidant abilities in helping to retard rancidity of your oils.

HTH!
IrishLass


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## Tabitha (May 17, 2009)

IMHO, every product containing water needs a preservative or you run the risk of bacterial growth.


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## Tabitha (May 17, 2009)

As a nurse, I use lanolin topicaly quite a bit, on my patients.


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## Guest (May 17, 2009)

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## Harlow (May 17, 2009)

I am going to have to agree with Tabitha. Preseravtives  just make good sense unless you have unlimited resources for testing, which 99% of the members on this forum do not.  I would much rather find an FDA approved preservative in my product than bacteria or mold.  Better safe than sorry.

I have found mold in a number of items I have received in forum soap swaps. Most recently in a tube of bath salts, which just goes to prove "products with a certain level of salt" do indeed need additional preservatives.


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## cdc (May 17, 2009)

Thank you all for your opinions!  Lanolin spray is indeed used for wool, and so does not need to be as stringent as body use products I would guess, but I was not sure that lanolin would go rancid.  It is different from other oils, more of a wax I understand....so perhaps some gse, tea tree or vit E might be enough.  Hmm.


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## Guest (May 17, 2009)

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## cdc (May 17, 2009)

Ok, I DONT make and sell lotion or other water based body products, but just out of curiousity, how do you test for this stuff?  Where?  How much does it cost?


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## carebear (May 17, 2009)

WaterWitch said:
			
		

> First, why in the world would anyone want to spray lanolin on themselves??  Sounds like a rash waiting to happen.


uh, not everyone is allergic to lanolin.  I use it daily on my skin, I work with wool and love how it makes my hands feel, women use it as a nursing balm...


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## Guest (May 17, 2009)

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## Guest (May 17, 2009)

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## carebear (May 17, 2009)

oops, sorry my error.


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## carebear (May 17, 2009)

WaterWitch said:
			
		

> Care bear...not every rash is the result of an allergy, F.Y.I.
> 
> Sue


really?!? oh my!  I never knew!!!

and not everyone gets a rash from lanolin.  

see, even you found it wasn't the lanolin.  so what exactly is wrong with using it on oneself?


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## carebear (May 18, 2009)

items that need preservatives are those with nothing else to prevent the growth of nasties.  items that are high in salt, for example, may be low water activity systems, as are jams and jellies thanks to the high levels of sugar.  so in theory scrubs don't need a preservative.  but that's making an assumption that the system won't be disturbed.  unfortunately consumers are likely to disturb that balance by introducing water with wet hands, condensation, and splashing from the shower.  the excess water pooling in your scrub container may not have enough salt or sugar to "take up" the water - and so leaving it free to support life - yanno, molds and bacteria.

so you not only need a good preservative in formulations that contain water, but also those into which water might be introduced.


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## rupertspal42 (May 18, 2009)

So using a preservative is just an extra safety pretty much right? 

I have really dry skin and the army had to medicate a lotion to me and it's made with lanolin, waxes and some type of wool wax (never heard of it) it's SUPER thick and I have to use it almost everyday or my skin will crack open and chap horribley!! If I don't use it i'm effed but when I do use it i'm happy! I have sensitive skin already so I have to be careful  :wink:


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## carebear (May 18, 2009)

rupertspal42 said:
			
		

> So using a preservative is just an extra safety pretty much right?


well, yes and no.

in a perfect world - yea.  but we live in a world of dirty fingers so except in some anhydrous products where it's unlikely water would be introduced a preservative is really a necessity.

I wouldn't use a properly preserved moisturizer unless it's been produced in a sterile environment and packaged in a way to avoid contamination (they do exist, they are expensive, and your pharmacist can order them for you).

I love lanolin.  It causes me no rashes of either the allergic nor non-allergic type.


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## rupertspal42 (May 18, 2009)

Oh I see, yeah don't know about doing that whole expensive thing.. haha


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## Guest (May 18, 2009)

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## cdc (May 18, 2009)

WaterWitch said:
			
		

> _(inflammatory/trolling posts will be removed by SMF Admin)_



Wow, thanks admin!  I am happy to see this, it is nice to just have a helpful and interesting discussion.


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## cdc (May 18, 2009)

Ok, what about alcohol.  I understand that alcohol is a preservative, in a strong enough concentration.  I read 25%.  Does anyone know what kind of alcohol is required?  You know, can I dump tequila in my stuff and have it work ?


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## Tabitha (May 18, 2009)

> can I dump tequila in my stuff and have it work ?



Now why would you want to waster perfectly good teqila like that?

I know people make body mists w/ everclear or vodka, you would not be able to airmail it & you would not be able to sell it w/o an alcohol permit though.


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## carebear (May 18, 2009)

cdc, alcohol is a decent preservative in the right formula, but its legal status and the drying nature sets some limitations on its usage.

I've read varying things about how much you need, but of course cannot recall details right now.  I'll search my notes - but while I consider my sources credible, they aren't precisely "data" so I wouldn't suggest going by me!


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## ChrissyB (May 18, 2009)

This may be TMI but lanolin certainly saved my nipples when I was nursing my little girl.
There is a product over here marketed specifically for nursing mothers to help heal cracks and soreness while nursing, it works because the lanolin is waterproof and creates a barrier, and locks in moisture to help with the healing process.
I was in tears everyday till I found that stuff, it really was a godsend.
I have a tube left over from those days and I use it in winter as a hand cream when my hands get really chapped and sore.


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## cdc (May 18, 2009)

ChrissyB said:
			
		

> This may be TMI but lanolin certainly saved my nipples when I was nursing my little girl.
> There is a product over here marketed specifically for nursing mothers to help heal cracks and soreness while nursing, it works because the lanolin is waterproof and creates a barrier, and locks in moisture to help with the healing process.
> I was in tears everyday till I found that stuff, it really was a godsend.
> I have a tube left over from those days and I use it in winter as a hand cream when my hands get really chapped and sore.


Yep, it is good stuff! And there is the misconception that alot of people are allergic to it.  There was a study recently that showed that only 1.7% of the test subjects were allergic to lanolin.  There are often yucky chemicals in certain forms of lanolin, and those are the most likely culprets in suspected lanolin or wool allergies.  I use only medical grade lanolin, which is free of chemicals.


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## IrishLass (May 18, 2009)

cdc said:
			
		

> WaterWitch said:
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Ditto to that!   



> Ok, what about alcohol. I understand that alcohol is a preservative, in a strong enough concentration. I read 25%. Does anyone know what kind of alcohol is required? You know, can I dump tequila in my stuff and have it work ?



I use Everclear to make my own perfumes for personal use and I really love it. It mixes perfectly with all my fragrances and essential oils without any separation issues and it doesn't overpower any of my scents. If I were selling it to the public, though, I would have to use Pefumers Alcohol instead, or else get an alcohol seller's permit or something.  

Snowdrift Farms has a lotion recipe in their formulary that uses alcohol as the sole perservative. They use it at 10%. Here's the link to it: 

http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/formulary.html  (Just click on 'Lotionmaking 101- How To Make Lotions' in the 'How To' video section at the top of the page.) 

Also- regarding the lanolin- I've seen some places on the net that sell liquid lanolin. Has anyone tried it? I was just wondering if that might possibly work better for spray bottles?

IrishLass


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## cdc (May 18, 2009)

Hi!

Thanks for the info.

The term "liquid" is a bit misleading.  It has the consistancy of honey!  The solid stuff is like a soft wax though, so it is more liquidy than that!  You cant spray it directly, it has to be thinned.  That is the thing I am trying to do.  It can be thinned with another oil, or wiht an emulsifier, with water.  Im playing around with the different formulas....but stumbled on the preservative issue.


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## rupertspal42 (May 19, 2009)

HOORAY FOR ADMIN!! 

So when using water for like a salt/sugar scrub I should use preservatives definetly correct?


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## IrishLass (May 19, 2009)

rupertspal42 said:
			
		

> HOORAY FOR ADMIN!!
> 
> So when using water for like a salt/sugar scrub I should use preservatives definetly correct?



If it were me, I would.   


IrishLass


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## LJA (May 19, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> cdc, alcohol is a decent preservative in the right formula, but its legal status and the drying nature sets some limitations on its usage.
> 
> quote]
> 
> You can't even BUY the stuff _here_.  Not that uh...I ever uh...._looked _for it.   :wink:


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## cdc (May 19, 2009)

LJA said:
			
		

> carebear said:
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OMG.  They DONT SELL LIQUOR IN your state?  Horrible.  Id move.


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## LJA (May 19, 2009)

They sell liquor here...lol.  They just don't sell _Everclear_.  It's not quite a Footloose movie, but apparently it's okay to get hammered on everything but Everclear.

Ridiculous- 1   Sense - 0


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## cdc (May 19, 2009)

So, I see loads of liquid soap being sold with no preservative.  Is it not necessary?  Water, right?  They list the ingredients as lye and oil.  

This is so confusing.


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## rszuba (May 19, 2009)

there is a woman in the up(i live in michigan, up is upper pennisula) and she uses witch hazel for a preservitive. not sure how, i would love to know, anyone else heard of this?


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## cdc (May 19, 2009)

I am planning on casting a spell on my liquid soap instead of using a preservative.  Probably works as well as witch hazel.


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## cdc (May 19, 2009)

Ok, seriously, liquid soap.....preservatives or NO?

I read this article, and although the formuation is not provided in the free read, it seems that the plain soap was fine in a challenge test....

http://www.sinpospq.org/2008/node/446

Anyone have any good data to the contrary for me?


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## LJA (May 20, 2009)

cdc said:
			
		

> I am planning on casting a spell on my liquid soap instead of using a preservative.  Probably works as well as witch hazel.



::::


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## rupertspal42 (May 20, 2009)

So you can use booze and it works? That's wicked cool lmao I think i'll stick to preserves... but can you use like rubbing alcohol?


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## angbaby4974 (May 20, 2009)

cdc said:
			
		

> Ok, seriously, liquid soap.....preservatives or NO?
> 
> I read this article, and although the formuation is not provided in the free read, it seems that the plain soap was fine in a challenge test....
> 
> ...



I'm thinking it will be fine preservative free.  Keep in mind the only liquid soap I've ever made was a horribly failed rebatch...but You're still making "soap".  You add water to lye for bar soap & don't add preservatives, so why would you add preservatives when you add water to potassium hydroxide for liquid soap???  

I could be totally off base with that, but I don't think I've ever read a recipe for liquid soap that called for a preservative.


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## pink-north (May 20, 2009)

carebear said:
			
		

> rupertspal42 said:
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So let me see if I understand you properly. You do not use handmade lotions unless you can ensure they are made in a sterile environment. How does one make their lotion sterile?


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## Deda (May 20, 2009)

> So let me see if I understand you properly. You do not use handmade lotions unless you can ensure they are made in a sterile environment. How does one make their lotion sterile?



I use lots of Clorox. Rinse my containers, utensils, and all work surfaces.  Wear gloves, and cover hair (sometimes).  Boil and hold water at170 for a minimum of 20 mins.


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## pink-north (May 20, 2009)

I use lots of Clorox. Rinse my containers, utensils, and all work surfaces.  Wear gloves, and cover hair (sometimes).  Boil and hold water at170 for a minimum of 20 mins.[/quote]

I tried that once and I ended up melting all my bottles. How do you handle that?


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## Deda (May 20, 2009)

I dont boil my containers, I use a bleach rinse.  Maybe you poured too hot?


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## IrishLass (May 21, 2009)

pink-north said:
			
		

> How does one make their lotion sterile?



I think the word 'sterile' is really a misnomer unless the lotion was made and bottled in a sterile lab or a 'clean room' environment with Hazmat suits on.    

I believe 'Sanitized' is actually a much better word for what homecrafters of lotion aim for- basically making sure all the lotionmaking equipment is as clean as one can possibly get it without having to mortgage the house on an autoclave or something.  :wink: 

From what I understand, sanitizing helps to give ones' lotion a good head start and a better chance at a longer shelf-life by putting a good, wolloping  dent in the buggie colonies in order that ones' preservative system is not overwhelmed.

I'm just a small-time (and fairly brand new) lotionmaker who makes lotions only for my own personal use, but I sanitize all my lotionmaking equipment in a product called StarSan. It's a product that many homebrewers of beer and wine use to sanitize their equipment and containers with. I also sanitize my working area and wear gloves and all that.

My lotionmaking set-up mainly consists of 3 (sanitized) wide-mouthed canning jars. What I do is put my water phase in one jar, my oil phase in another jar, and some extra water in the third jar just in case I need to make up for any water loss later on. I cover all 3 tightly with foil and poke sanitised thermometers through the foil of the oil phase jar and the water phase jar. I then set all 3 jars in a simmering water bath (in a large pot) until the temp reaches 175 degreesF. Then I fiddle with the stove knob in order to hold it at that temp for 20 minutes before combining the oil and water phases together and blending with my sanitized stickblender. 

When all is said and done, I transfer my lotion to a ZipLoc baggy, snip a small hole in the corner with sanitized scissors and squeeze it out into my clean lotion bottles. 

I can't claim it's 100% sterile, but it's as spit-spot clean as I can possibly get it.   

IrishLass


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## rupertspal42 (May 21, 2009)

Yeah completly sterile would be pretty hard to achieve! But I like Deda's method, i think i'm going to go that route for sterilizing my bottles.. but what about rubbing alcohol in lotions for a preservative? I've seen on the back of some lotions it says Isophoythl Alcohol (spelling) isn't that the same as rubbing alcohol?  :?


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## BeGreen (May 21, 2009)

> Yeah completly sterile would be pretty hard to achieve! But I like Deda's method, i think i'm going to go that route for sterilizing my bottles.. but what about rubbing alcohol in lotions for a preservative?



*Rubbing alcohol* contains chemicals added so that it smells so terrible no one would be able to drink it.  You probably do not want your lotion to smell like that, which is why it should never be used, not because it would not work.

Alcohol is regularly used in patient preoperative skin preparations but at a high volume; 60-95%.  But you would not want a level that high in a cosmetic.  Those preparations also smell like the denaturant since they are not designed to be a pleasant experience!

_"Microbial growth is prevented in squeous systems containing 25% alcohol; however, lower levels of alcohol (5-10%) may have additive or synergistic antimicrobial action with other formula components."_

*Preservative-free and self-preserving cosmetics and drugs* By Jon J. Kabara

BG


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## cdc (May 21, 2009)

What about liquid soaps?  Preservatives required?


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## BeGreen (May 21, 2009)

> What about liquid soaps?  Preservatives required?



It completely depends on the formula. What is the pH?  How much glycerin is in the formula?  Does the formula have other ingredients such as essential oils that might make the formula self-preserving? Glycerin works to preserve products as do some essential oils.


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## cdc (May 21, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> cdc said:
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Ok, it was my understanding that essential oils do not preserve, they just retard oxidation of oils.  And, I didnt think there was that much variability in soap PH...it is all alkaline....

but this question applys to basic soap recipies.  Oil, water, lye.


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## BeGreen (May 21, 2009)

> Ok, it was my understanding that essential oils do not preserve, they just retard oxidation of oils.



I think you might be confusing something like Vitamin oils with essential oils.  Essential oils are the basis for quite a few preservatives.

BG


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## cdc (May 21, 2009)

No, really, I have read many times that essential oils are not preservatives....someone with more credibility?  Right?  Confused?


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## BeGreen (May 21, 2009)

> No, really, I have read many times that essential oils are not preservatives....someone with more credibility?  Right?  Confused?



They in and of themselves are not preservatives, in the sense that you just add some to any formula and it will work to preserve it.  But many do have the effect of preserving a formula which is why some preservatives are made from them, or contain them.  Here's some for your research; look into Suprapein, Neopein, Biopein, Feniol, Naticide, Jeecide NAS-NPC, NAS-NPC CC, Linatural NLP, neem, tea tree...that should get you started. 

Here is an article which certainly has the credibility you are asking for: Williams L.R., Home V, Asre S. (1990) Antimicrobial activity of oil of Melaleuca (Tea  tree oil): It's potential use in cosmetics and toiletries. Cosmetics, Aerosols and Toiletries, Australia. 4 (4), pp. 12-13, 16-18,22.

BG


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## cdc (May 21, 2009)

Great info, thank you!


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## cdc (May 21, 2009)

PS, just reread my earlier post....I didnt mean to imply YOU had limited credibility, I was saying that I did!  

Thanks for the help!


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## Deda (May 21, 2009)

BeGreen said:
			
		

> > No, really, I have read many times that essential oils are not preservatives....someone with more credibility?  Right?  Confused?
> 
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Dear WaterWitch, I'm so sorry, I meant BeGreen,  we have a strict NO TROLL policy here.  

I believe admin already has already banned you once.


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## cdc (May 21, 2009)

OOps, Im confused.


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## cdc (May 21, 2009)

IC.

She was a meanie in the beginning of this post.  Made me crazy.

I did research some of the products she listed, and the essential oil combos seem to be legit.

Tea Tree oil, on the other hand, is unreliable and you need SO MUCH of it to work, that your stuff would stink like TeaTree.  Tea Tree does seem to have good uses in your products as anti-fungals, but as a preservative, not so much.  Apparently, it takes %5 to be preservative.  Yikes.

I might try some of the EO blends for my home stuff...but too pricey to sell it seems.  Anyone use them?  Seems to be cinnamon, rosemary and a few others....


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## IrishLass (May 22, 2009)

MrsJones said:
			
		

> It seems to me that WaterWitch, a member recently banned for inflammatory posting, has transformed herself into BeGreen and tried to sneak back in.
> 
> Admin can see IP addresses.



I was a-wondering if BeGreen was WaterWitch. Looks like my suspicions were correct.

IrishLass


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## rupertspal42 (May 22, 2009)

:shock: ok that's kinda creepy... oh since admin can see our IP address does that mean mine is always changing? I'm not always on the some IP muhahahaha  :twisted: well i'm in iraq and I have to use public computers... that's why.. but anyways... CDC where did you find that info? I'd like to take a peak myself if you don't mind!


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## cdc (May 22, 2009)

Hi!  Just google suprapein, Neopein, Biopein, Feniol, Naticide.

Surapein seems to be the most available.....you can get it at a few lotion supply sites.  This is the manufacturer....http://www.bio-botanica.com/news/suprapein.asp

And this talks about TT oil.  http://www.byregion.net/articles-healer ... e_Oil.html


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## Deda (May 22, 2009)

cdc said:
			
		

> Hi!  Just google suprapein, Neopein, Biopein, Feniol, Naticide.
> 
> Surapein seems to be the most available.....you can get it at a few lotion supply sites.  This is the manufacturer....http://www.bio-botanica.com/news/suprapein.asp
> 
> And this talks about TT oil.  http://www.byregion.net/articles-healer ... e_Oil.html



Problem with that is the smell, just can't get past it.  I want my lotions to smell nice.  The whiff on that stuff was over powering.  

I haven't tried it myself at home in my formulations.  I tested it out when I was de-parabenizing the lotions at my old job.  It was a phenomenal failure.  If I remember the challenge results correctly, the results were ok within limits, but not the greatest.  Didn't require much more testing as the stench was so horrid.


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## cdc (May 22, 2009)

what did it smell like?


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## Deda (May 22, 2009)

It's been a couple years, but I remember a pungent chemically strongly herbaceous smell.  Adding additional fragrance made it very ugly.


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## rupertspal42 (May 22, 2009)

eee that's scary... thanks CDC i'll look into it


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## Tabitha (May 23, 2009)

rupert, 

We can see each IP you have posted from, we can also see you only post under 1 screen name. With a little more effort we can get an exact address where the IPs originate. Mods/admin on most forums have that access.


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## rupertspal42 (May 24, 2009)

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  8) I see, that's really neato. COOL BEANS!


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