# Rose Wax



## IngridK (Aug 15, 2018)

Hi all!
Just wondering if anyone here had experience in adding rose wax to their soaps. I cannot find any 'intel' if it has a SAP value so I am assuming not. I added it to a batch of cream soap over the weekend  and it is separting. No big; the stuff on the top will make amazing shave cream... once I get the two apart I will have a look as to what the oily stuff wants to do and use it up accordingly.

I am thinking I might have one of two issues going on here;
1- dummy here forgot to check the temp and may have emulsified at too low of a temp (note to self; stop talking to the best friends kid and pay attention next time)
2- the rose wax did something to me that someone here might be aware of.
TIA
Ingrid


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## amd (Aug 15, 2018)

I don't know if this will be of help, but I did a quick Google search and found a few hits.

Other thoughts:
1. how much wax did you use? typically wax has very minimal/none SAP value so should be used in small amounts.
2. Before you use that top stuff, be sure to do a zap test to make sure it isn't lye heavy.


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## Misschief (Aug 15, 2018)

Interesting. I still have some orange (neroli) wax around here somewhere. It might be time for an experiment.


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## IngridK (Aug 15, 2018)

amd said:


> I don't know if this will be of help, but I did a quick Google search and found a few hits.
> 
> Other thoughts:
> 1. how much wax did you use? typically wax has very minimal/none SAP value so should be used in small amounts.
> 2. Before you use that top stuff, be sure to do a zap test to make sure it isn't lye heavy.




Thanks for the google link, sometimes I get too specific when searching... I should have thought to put in more general terms!

I used about a half ounce...

I have strip tested the top layer and it is showing a nice green so it is around 8-9 - that was 24 hours after the 'cook' and before the separation began. I'll be sure to test both layers again once it has had time to settle.

I just double checked the math... I used .03% rose wax in the formula... 
4.6 almond
6 coconut
4 palm
2 stearic acid
2.4 Potassium Hydroxide
.7 Sodium Hydroxide
18 water
1 glycerine for superfat


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## amd (Aug 15, 2018)

Half an ounce in how much oils?

pH strips aren't going to tell you if it is lye heavy, only what the pH of your soap is.

Ooops! Posted the same time you did


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## IngridK (Aug 15, 2018)

Misschief said:


> Interesting. I still have some orange (neroli) wax around here somewhere. It might be time for an experiment.


Until now (and finding a supplier in Bangalore where the cost became affordable for testing) I only ever used rose wax for lotions because of the cost... rose is amazing on the skin! Just amazing!



amd said:


> Half an ounce in how much oils?
> 
> pH strips aren't going to tell you if it is lye heavy, only what the pH of your soap is.
> 
> Ooops! Posted the same time you did



I never taste the stuff until I have completed the rot... I'm a sensitive beastie... ;-)

On that note; I cannot remember the 'official name' of the chemical where you can test for lye... anyone here have a cheerful supplier in Canada they could recommend. Right now I am just making for myself but as time goes by I will want to give my stuff away as gifts... would like to know all is good before the product leaves my hands.


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## amd (Aug 15, 2018)

Ah! I completely missed that this is liquid soap. (One of the pitfalls of using 'New Posts' instead of reading each forum individually) I'm gracefully bowing out of giving advice in favor of someone with more liquid soap experience chiming in.


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## earlene (Aug 15, 2018)

Phenolphthalein is probably what you're looking for.  No Canada suppliers lists from me, though, sorry.


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## IngridK (Aug 15, 2018)

amd said:


> Ah! I completely missed that this is liquid soap. (One of the pitfalls of using 'New Posts' instead of reading each forum individually) I'm gracefully bowing out of giving advice in favor of someone with more liquid soap experience chiming in.



No Worries, no worries at all... thank you for your help thus far.

I posted here because I truly am a newbie with barely a dozen batches under my belt. My bad for not stating that this was a liquid recipe from the jump!


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 15, 2018)

Hi Ingrid and Welcome!   




Floral waxes are formulated to be used in products like lotion, butters, and balms. I imagine they would work in NaOH bars as well, similar to using beeswax in your formula. If making liquid soap, you may have to find a way to "solubize" the wax, i.e., make it watery enough to disperse in the soap or it will end up separating out and floating on top.

HTH


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## IngridK (Aug 15, 2018)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Hi Ingrid and Welcome!   View attachment 31565
> 
> Floral waxes are formulated to be used in products like lotion, butters, and balms. I imagine they would work in NaOH bars as well, similar to using beeswax in your formula. If making liquid soap, you may have to find a way to "solubize" the wax, i.e., make it watery enough to disperse in the soap or it will end up separating out and floating on top.
> 
> HTH



Ah! I melted it into the oils before I added the lye/water mixture... Solubizing is easy... PEG 40 would do the trick. The only issue there is that PEG 40 has a SAP value and I haven't a clue as to how that would effect the blend. I was using glycerine I wonder if the wax would melt into the glycerine... I think you are right about dispersal the wax melts beautifully but the temps are not high enough for it to blend, even with a stick blender... 

LOL I feel another test batch coming on...


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## Misschief (Aug 16, 2018)

Ingrid Kostron said:


> On that note; I cannot remember the 'official name' of the chemical where you can test for lye... anyone here have a cheerful supplier in Canada they could recommend. Right now I am just making for myself but as time goes by I will want to give my stuff away as gifts... would like to know all is good before the product leaves my hands.



That would be phenolphthalein you're looking for. I got mine from Voyageur Soap & Candle.

https://www.voyageursoapandcandle.com/search?q=phenolphthalein


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## IngridK (Aug 16, 2018)

Misschief said:


> That would be phenolphthalein you're looking for. I got mine from Voyageur Soap & Candle.
> 
> https://www.voyageursoapandcandle.com/search?q=phenolphthalein



Timing is everything, I was eyeying their site recently because a local supplier had let me down a number of times. The presumption on my part is that you like working with them and perhaps it would be worth my while to place an order and have it shipped to the other side of Canada?


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## Misschief (Aug 16, 2018)

Ingrid Kostron said:


> Timing is everything, I was eyeying their site recently because a local supplier had let me down a number of times. The presumption on my part is that you like working with them and perhaps it would be worth my while to place an order and have it shipped to the other side of Canada?


Your presumption would be correct. I've been a Voyageur customer for almost 20 years; I wish they would open a shop here, where I live, instead of 4-5 hours from me (might be too dangerous for my bank account, though). When I did have a (minor) complaint, they were very helpful and even called me at work to discuss the issue.  

I put in an order this morning and just received notification that it's already on its way. They're not always THAT quick but they're a lot quicker than other suppliers I've used.


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## szaza (Aug 16, 2018)

Just a thought... In liquid soap you add the scent after saponification right? Would it be an option to use rose essential oil in stead of rose wax? I've used rose absolue in HP soap (I got a small dropler of very diluted rose absolue long before I started soaping and never used it, so decided to try it out). You need a rediculously small amount of rose oil to get the scent (like 1/10 of what you would normally use). The soap had a wonderful smell, though it faded after a year.. 
I'm thinking it might be more practical and maybe even more economical to use rose oil at the end of the process than adding a bunch of wax and have it go through saponification and heating and hope you have some of the smell left (with the risk of the wax doing funky things to your soap). Rose absolue is a lot cheaper than rose EO, but of course it's chemically extracted.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 16, 2018)

szaza said:


> I'm thinking it might be more practical and maybe even more economical to use rose oil at the end of the process than adding a bunch of wax and have it go through saponification and heating and hope you have some of the smell left (with the risk of the wax doing funky things to your soap).


You're thinking is spot on.  However, if you're not opposed to using Fragrance Oils vs. Essential Oils, an FO would be less expensive compared to EO.


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## IngridK (Aug 17, 2018)

I am not going for the scent... believe it or not... but the properties of the wax itself...

I find the hydrosol and wax component far more therapeutic than the oil for this flower... Personally I don't care for the scent of roses... but my icky skin loves what rose can do for it...


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## jentlesoaps (Aug 18, 2018)

I just got some rose wax in from Bulgaria. Yes, it isn't a nice fragrance so it's not going in for the fragrant properties. I am using a counter top hot process and adding what I normally add in beeswax at the end of the cook while everything is still quite hot. Maybe you could try this as well?


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## IngridK (Aug 18, 2018)

Funny, that, I love the scent of Bulgarian Rose Wax for boosting lotions. I just don't have a direct supplier for it... I must keep this in mind for a next batch when I experiment.


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## IngridK (Aug 18, 2018)

The adventure continues... my batch has now cured for two weeks. It is pretty solid but I think a whiz with a blender will fix that. Will have to add preservative it is testing at a Ph of about neutral... I am a titch surprised by that.


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## szaza (Aug 18, 2018)

IngridK said:


> I am not going for the scent... believe it or not... but the properties of the wax itself...
> 
> I find the hydrosol and wax component far more therapeutic than the oil for this flower... Personally I don't care for the scent of roses... but my icky skin loves what rose can do for it...



That's very interesting! Makes me curious to try out rose wax as well 
I don't have any experience with liquid soap and I only reacted because I made a rose scented soap and thought that was your goal with this soap as well.
On the website of the supplier I normally order my soaping stuff from, it sais that rose wax can be used as a substitute for beeswax in cosmetics or if you want to use it in soap, you need to add 20g for 1kg of soap batter. I think that's about 2/3 of an ounce for 2 pounds of soap or 2%. If I'm not mistaken, liquid soap can be made with up to 3% SF, so I guess you could try adding the rose wax as a 2% SF after saponification? Since it sais 2% of the soap batter and not soaping oils, you might even need less than 2% SF.
Good luck with your experiment! I hope you find a way to get the rose wax incorporated in the soap to get the qualities you're looking for!


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## IngridK (Aug 18, 2018)

Rose as a scent is tricky to hold over time... I am currently experimenting with perfumers alcohol to fix something that smells like my idea of spring, the mid note is lily of the valley; another notoriously hard fragrance to fix. If I can get a fix then it is only a matter to putting the perfume into the trace and be extra careful about the temps because the alcohol will ignite (not so much a hazard for the batch of soap - definitely a hazard for the house!)

Rose is a softener and has great balancing properties that are lost to the wax or hydrosol. So rose oil works with aroma and aromatherapy, it still has qualities of the wax or hydrosol but not as much.

And just so you all know the preceding statement is yet another IMHO moment... I could be full of poo for saying that... ;-)

I know a lot, I not know everything.


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## shunt2011 (Aug 18, 2018)

Alcohol can also cause seizing.  Also, liquid soap can’t test neutral it would separate.  Will always be 8.5-11 or so.


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## IngridK (Aug 18, 2018)

shunt2011 said:


> Alcohol can also cause seizing.  Also, liquid soap can’t test neutral it would separate.  Will always be 8.5-11 or so.



Well, that explains much... so the lye calc was off on the recipe I tried. Time to try another batch, armed with a little more knowledge!

I may just weigh the loose oil and try rebatching with a bit more lye... I would think the soap is lost so, it might as well become a learning experience.

Thank you.


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## jentlesoaps (Aug 19, 2018)

IngredK,  Here is where I get my rose wax...  http://bulgarianroseotto.com/ It does smell of roses once dilute. Right in the jar it isn't something I find very pleasant. Same with the pure EO.


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## IngridK (Aug 19, 2018)

jentlesoaps said:


> IngredK,  Here is where I get my rose wax...  http://bulgarianroseotto.com/ It does smell of roses once dilute. Right in the jar it isn't something I find very pleasant. Same with the pure EO.



Was looking at that web site as well... good to know... I'm thinking about a test order from them.


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## umeali (Oct 21, 2018)

IngridK said:


> Hi all!
> Just wondering if anyone here had experience in adding rose wax to their soaps. I cannot find any 'intel' if it has a SAP value so I am assuming not. I added it to a batch of cream soap over the weekend  and it is separting. No big; the stuff on the top will make amazing shave cream... once I get the two apart I will have a look as to what the oily stuff wants to do and use it up accordingly.
> 
> I am thinking I might have one of two issues going on here;
> ...


I always use rose water in my  rose soap instead of water with dried rose petal powder .


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