# Testing Vinegar/Sodium Acetate In Soap - Phase II



## topofmurrayhill (Mar 22, 2016)

I have been testing the hypothesis that sodium acetate has an effect on soap comparable to the hardening effect of sodium lactate.

One of the implications would be that you can get the benefits of SL by simply replacing all or part of your lye water with vinegar. The acetic acid in vinegar promptly reacts with sodium hydroxide to produce sodium acetate.

There was a gentleman named Leonard M. Liddle who wrote a short piece for a chemical engineering journal on this subject. Almost 100 years ago, he filed a patent for the use of sodium lactate and sodium acetate to harden soap. I think some of you will find it very interesting. You can see it here:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US1377843.pdf

My original thread on this subject, which includes initial testing and any numbers and calculations you might be interested in, is located here:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57991

TeresaT recently did a relevant experiment by substituting apple cider vinegar for water. This thread describes the enhanced hardness and easy demolding of the resulting soap:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=59092
There will be some additional results posted at the end of the week when I get back from a business trip. Here however is something I did on the way out of town.

I tested chunks of the 2 test soaps from the original experiment using a soil penetrometer. A penetrometer tests the hardness of something by poking into it. Higher numbers signify greater hardness, meaning more force required to poke into the soap to a depth of 1/4 inch.

I tested each soap sample at one end and on one face and averaged two readings from each location. The end was harder than the face for both soaps.

Plain soap, face: 2.8 kg/cm2
Plain soap, end: 3.3 kg/cm2

Sodium acetate, face: 4.3 kg/cm2
Sodium acetate, end: > 4.5 kg/cm2 (exceeded the maximum reading)


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## Susie (Mar 22, 2016)

I love this forum!  All of these experiments make my inner mad scientist very happy without me having to do them.  Using real scientific method and everything!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Mar 22, 2016)

I agree - as SL is really not easy to get hold of over here, I am very interested in this.


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## galaxyMLP (Mar 22, 2016)

Very cool! Thank you for sharing.


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## Seawolfe (Mar 22, 2016)

This is pretty exciting! Thanks for compiling your results so far.


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## ngian (Mar 22, 2016)

Thank you for informing us with all the data you have gained. 

Wouldn't salt give the same hardening property? 

I guess I'm lucky to have available in my town sodium lactate (100ml at 1,5€) and lactic acid 85% (1 litre at 5,5€).


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## songwind (Mar 22, 2016)

Do you have any plans/ability to compare the hardness of sodium acetate and sodium lactate soaps?


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## TeresaT (Mar 22, 2016)

I just want to make one tiny correction to TOMH's post.  I did not have ACV at home so I used white vinegar in my experiment.  However, I did get similar results to his.  When I did not add the extra lye to my batch to compensate for the acidity in the vinegar, the bar was rock hard when I unmolded it.  It literally fell out of the mold.  I think this vinegar lye solution will be very beneficial for high OO/soft oil soaps. (I'm thinking Castile-types and Bastille.) My next experiment (since I did this one with lard) is to use 100% OO instead.  Someone mentioned salt being a factor in the hardening process.  I could do one bar with salt as my hardener instead of the vinegar.  I'll post those experiments with the other thread that I had started.  I need to stop at the store on my way home, so I'll pick up some ACV and compare it to white vinegar, as well.    As an aside, I wish I had searched the forum better regarding "vinegar" because TOMH's original thread would have been the perfect answer to my questions.  But then again, I wouldn't have been able to learn quite as well and I would have missed DeeAnna's awesome explanation of how vinegar and lye react together.  (It takes a lot of vinegar to neutralize a little bit of lye.  28:1 ratio.  You definitely don't want to toss a little vinegar on your lye spill to neutralize it.  It's just going to heat up and burn you worse!)

ETA:  Wow!  I'm glad I didn't read that thread first.  I never would have experimented with the vinegar.  I just weighed out my vinegar and weighed out my lye and dumped the lye in vinegar and stirred.  I knew it heated up more than a regular water solution did, but I didn't do anything special for it.  I replaced 100% of the water, too.  Dangerous soaping going on in my house!


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 22, 2016)

songwind said:


> Do you have any plans/ability to compare the hardness of sodium acetate and sodium lactate soaps?



Yes, I already have some testers made with nothing, sodium acetate and sodium lactate. I'm away but will be returning home on Thursday night.


ngian said:


> Thank you for informing us with all the data you have gained.
> 
> Wouldn't salt give the same hardening property?
> 
> I guess I'm lucky to have available in my town sodium lactate (100ml at 1,5€) and lactic acid 85% (1 litre at 5,5€).



Salt has a hardening property, but I'm not experienced with it. I don't know if the effect is the same or somewhat different from SL. I always assumed it was different.

The effects of sodium lactate that I've gathered so far is that it increases the hardness and/or brittleness of bar soap, helps solubilize potassium soap, and adds fluidity to neat soap in the hot process. I think it might be that the lactate and acetate are equivalent in how they work and produce the same effects to one degree or another. It's not for certain, but at first glance they seem pretty similar.

BTW, the old-time soapy term for what SL does is that it shortens soap. I think this is borrowed from baking, where shortening is used for products like pie crusts that are supposed to be hard and crispy rather than flexible.

Your prices are pretty good. In the States we can get 1 gallon or 7 lb SL for $18.99 from Soaper's Choice, which comes out to 50 cents for 100 ml plus a variable shipping cost. The same amount of lactic acid 88% from Essential Wholesale is $26.75. Other suppliers might charge much more, but those two sources happen to be very good.


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## RobertBarnett (Mar 22, 2016)

What acidity levels are your vinegars? This could/would have an Impact on the experiments. Like other thank you all for your hard (no pun intended) work.

Robert


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 22, 2016)

RobertBarnett said:


> What acidity levels are your vinegars? This could/would have an Impact on the experiments. Like other thank you all for your hard (no pun intended) work.
> 
> Robert



5 percent. All the relevant calculations for using vinegar are here:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57991

If this technique turns out to be useful, I'll post simpler instructions for people who aren't into the math and aren't looking to be super exacting.


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## FlybyStardancer (Mar 22, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Yes, I already have some testers made with nothing, sodium acetate and sodium lactate. I'm away but will be returning home on Thursday night.



How are you controlling for the amount of additive? Are you aiming for the same amount of Sodium acetate and Sodium lactate by weight? Same molar amount (or an equivalent measure)?


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## TeresaT (Mar 22, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> 5 percent. All the relevant calculations for using vinegar are here:
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57991
> 
> If this technique turns out to be useful, I'll post simpler instructions for people who aren't into the math and aren't looking to be super exacting.




That would be me.  You know, "Sux-at-math."  You should have see my eyes glaze over when I got to the math part of your thread.  Yeah, not so much.  It was like shoving toothpicks under my nails.


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## RobertBarnett (Mar 22, 2016)

I would also like know if you have to replace all of the water with vinegar or can you get a similar hardening effect with a couple of tablespoons, or if a cup, part of a cup, etc. will work.

Robert


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 22, 2016)

FlybyStardancer said:


> How are you controlling for the amount of additive? Are you aiming for the same amount of Sodium acetate and Sodium lactate by weight? Same molar amount (or an equivalent measure)?



I wasn't sure whether to do it by weight or molar amount, so I chose weight. If the two additives truly work the same way, there's a good chance molar amount might be the actual equivalence. Or so I would think, but other opinions would be interesting.

The question, for people not familiar with the terminology, is how you could best compare the effects of the two additives relative to each other. Do you use equal weights, for example 1 g sodium lactate and 1 g sodium acetate, or do you use essentially the same number of molecules of each? That would be 1 g lactate and 0.73 g acetate, because a sodium acetate molecule has less mass than a sodium lactate molecule.


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## FlybyStardancer (Mar 22, 2016)

Weight is certainly easier to calculate out.

I wonder how it would do by molar, though... Since three soap hardener all contain sodium (Sodium lactate, Sodium acetate, Sodium chloride), I would guess that the extra sodium has something to do with it, and would want to keep the sodium levels introduced the same (and I would include salt as a fourth tester).


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## TeresaT (Mar 22, 2016)

"Molar" weight.  Is that new terminology, because when I was in school I'm pretty sure it was "molecular" weight.  Of course, I am 50, forgetful and haven't had a science class since 1982.  I believe I was dodging dinosaurs on my way to school.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 22, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> "Molar" weight.  Is that new terminology, because when I was in school I'm pretty sure it was "molecular" weight.  Of course, I am 50, forgetful and haven't had a science class since 1982.  I believe I was dodging dinosaurs on my way to school.



It's been molar forever. The general subject is called stoichiometry. You are right though that it's directly connected to molecules and molecular mass.

Excerpt from Wikipedia:

_The mole is widely used in chemistry as a convenient way to express amounts of reactants and products of chemical reactions. For example, the chemical equation 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O implies that 2 mol of dihydrogen (H2) and 1 mol of dioxygen (O2) react to form 2 mol of water (H2O). The mole may also be used to express the number of atoms, ions, or other elementary entities in a given sample of any substance. The concentration of a solution is commonly expressed by its molarity, defined as the number of moles of the dissolved substance per litre of solution._


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## TeresaT (Mar 22, 2016)

Oh.  That must be college stuff.  I never made it that far.  I only got as far as lighting alcohol on fire on the lab table to watch everyone freak out in my freshman year of HS.  Got nicknamed "Pyro" for that stunt and was never allowed to sit in the back of a science lab again.  Somehow the teacher didn't believe my "accident" explanation.  Must have been the mischievous twinkle in my eyes and the devious little smile on my face.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 22, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> Oh.  That must be college stuff.  I never made it that far.  I only got as far as lighting alcohol on fire on the lab table to watch everyone freak out in my freshman year of HS.  Got nicknamed "Pyro" for that stunt and was never allowed to sit in the back of a science lab again.  Somehow the teacher didn't believe my "accident" explanation.  Must have been the mischievous twinkle in my eyes and the devious little smile on my face.



Pyros are cool.


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## Spice (Mar 23, 2016)

I have to stop, "like this post". Every bite of info on this thread is absolutely great! I have used SL yet, but from reading I will be experimenting soon.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 25, 2016)

Here are some more results.

Sunday night I made 3 kinds of soap: no additive, sodium acetate, sodium lactate. I used grapeseed oil to make a soft soap. To avoid separation and hasten trace, each recipe was 95% grapeseed oil, 4% castor oil and 1% stearic acid, soaped quite hot. I used 300 g oil for each type of soap, split between 3 bars. All were made with a 40% lye.

To simplify the testing, I used anhydrous sodium acetate powder instead of reacting vinegar with sodium hydroxide. In the sodium lactate soap I used 2 tsp 60% sodium lactate solution. In the sodium acetate soap I used 4 tsp of 30% solution.

Before I left for my business trip Monday night, I took 4 penetrometer readings from each soap at the 1 day point. I stopped off on the way home tonight and took 4 more readings of each at the 4 day point. The results are the average of the 4 readings. The numbers are in kg/cm2, with higher readings being harder soap.

1 DAY
No additive - 0.33
Sodium acetate - 0.50
Sodium lactate - 0.63

4 DAYS
No additive - 0.40
Sodium acetate - 1.15
Sodium lactate - 1.00

The additive soaps were slightly harder than the control at the 1 day point, and much harder than the control at 4 days. The hardness of the control didn't increase significantly in this timeframe. The results with the 2 additives were comparable.


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## galaxyMLP (Mar 25, 2016)

Id like to see how sodium citrate affects this. I find my bars with sodium citrate are much harder than those without. I would think it should have a similar effect.


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## ngian (Mar 25, 2016)

galaxyMLP said:


> Id like to see how sodium citrate affects this. I find my bars with sodium citrate are much harder than those without. I would think it should have a similar effect.


If that is true I should stop using salt along with sodium citrate. 

Where one can get a cheap penetrometer?


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## kchaystack (Mar 25, 2016)

ngian said:


> If that is true I should stop using salt along with sodium citrate.
> 
> Where one can get a cheap penetrometer?



They look really expensive.  On Amazon the cheapest in $70


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 25, 2016)

galaxyMLP said:


> Id like to see how sodium citrate affects this. I find my bars with sodium citrate are much harder than those without. I would think it should have a similar effect.



Here I am only focusing on the claimed interchangeability of sodium acetate and lactate as per the Liddle patent, but the general topic of hardening additives would make for some interesting experimentation. Even from here, I can hear the wheels turning in ngian's head.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 25, 2016)

Here is another angle on it. Soap that is shortened by sodium lactate is more crumbly and brittle than soap with no additive. With no additive it is not only softer but more flexible -- it's less likely to break apart when squashed or bent.

So it would be interesting to compare the texture of the two additives with each other and the control.

The first picture shows the textures of the test soaps when a corner of the bar is crushed. The second shows what happens when the entire bar is bent 90 degrees. Again the additive soaps are very different from the control but very similar to each other.


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## galaxyMLP (Mar 25, 2016)

That quality you showed above (brittleness) is what I notice in my soaps with SC. I will start a similar experiment next week comparing SC, SL, regular salt, and a control. I'll also do a salt/SC combo and an SC/sugar SL/Sugar and Salt/sugar since people often add them together. 

I will also do gel vs ungel. I will not be able to test hardness as you've done here but i will mirror your other tests and add a lather test at 4, 6 and 8 weeks. My soaps will be mini soaps at 1 oz each and will have 4 duplicates. Additives will be added at 1-2%. 

I won't add sodium acetate as that is what you are testing here. This is a great thread! I'm very curious how this will turn out.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 25, 2016)

galaxyMLP said:


> That quality you showed above (brittleness) is what I notice in my soaps with SC. I will start a similar experiment next week comparing SC, SL, regular salt, and a control. I'll also do a salt/SC combo and an SC/sugar SL/Sugar and Salt/sugar since people often add them together.
> 
> I will also do gel vs ungel. I will not be able to test hardness as you've done here but i will mirror your other tests and add a lather test at 4, 6 and 8 weeks. My soaps will be mini soaps at 1 oz each and will have 4 duplicates. Additives will be added at 1-2%.
> 
> I won't add sodium acetate as that is what you are testing here. This is a great thread! I'm very curious how this will turn out.



That sounds awesome. I'll look forward to it. If you would like to send a set of samples over, I'll be glad to do the penetrometer readings.

I have some objective and some subjective information making me feel that the effect of sodium acetate in this test was a little stronger than the effect of sodium lactate. If I'm right about that, it may be because molar ratios are more comparable than equal weights, so I only needed about 3/4 the usage rate by weight of acetate for similar effect. Something to ponder when thinking about the usage rates in your experiment.

Let me take this opportunity to say that Liddle seems to have been correct as far as he went. On the matter of sodium acetate's equivalence to sodium lactate, my conclusion is that it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. You can shorten soap with sodium lactate as we commonly discuss, and you can achieve the identical effect by substituting household vinegar in place of water and calculating some extra caustic to react with the acetic acid. Something for TEG and others who have a hard time getting SL.

I'll try it in HP when I get a chance.


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## ngian (Mar 25, 2016)

That would be a very interesting experiment galaxyMLP.  It would be the "hardness lovers" test, after the famous "lather lovers" test ( http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/lather-lovers-additive-testing/ ) 

One more hardness test for me also includes (in my to do list) the different lye concentration with no hardening additives at all . 

I am also looking forward to it.


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## topofmurrayhill (Mar 27, 2016)

So here is the lather test. Sodium lactate is known to increase the lathering quality of soap. Liddle notes this in the case of both sodium lactate and sodium acetate.

We may come back to the three soaps in the latest experiment to look at this, but I'm going to start by trying the cured soaps from the first testing thread. These are 25% CO, 25% PO, 50% OO. The first has no additive and the one beneath is the sodium acetate soap, which has a richer, creamier lather that is even more apparent in person than in the photo.  It seems that maybe the sodium palmitate is more solubilized in the additive soap.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 18, 2016)

I tossed the test soaps last night because I can't keep every single thing indefinitely. I did some final testing on them first.

I took more penetrometer readings to see how the hardness of the samples had developed in a month. For easy comparison, I'm also including the previous readings that were posted earlier in the thread.

The numbers are in kg/cm2, with higher readings being harder soap.

1 DAY
No additive - 0.33
Sodium acetate - 0.50
Sodium lactate - 0.63

4 DAYS
No additive - 0.40
Sodium acetate - 1.15
Sodium lactate - 1.00

4 WEEKS
No additive - 1.26
Sodium acetate - 2.68
Sodium lactate - 2.45

Sodium acetate maintained it's slight lead from 4 days to 4 weeks. Both additive soaps were about twice as hard as the no-additive soap.

Since SA works so well, I want to point out that you can get 99% acetic acid on eBay for about $10/gal. This might make things simpler and more flexible than using vinegar. You could calculate the additive and the water separately, and use whatever SA usage rate you want.

My final test was lather. The lather test for my first testers is in the preceding post, illustrating the lather enhancing effect of sodium acetate versus no additive. However, with the recipe I used for my recent trio of testers, there was no noticeable difference between the three soaps, at least in this time frame. All had a similar amount of delicate looking bubbly lather that I would describe as 2 on a scale of 1 to 5.


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## Steve85569 (Apr 19, 2016)

I have a question. Rather than buying acetic why not just get sodium acetate and use that? ( just 'cause I'm a bit lazy):mrgreen:


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 19, 2016)

Steve85569 said:


> I have a question. Rather than buying acetic why not just get sodium acetate and use that? ( just 'cause I'm a bit lazy):mrgreen:



Actually there are a few reasons that buying sodium acetate might be the better idea. It's easier and it's also safer because glacial (undiluted) acetic acid can be hazardous. However, there are two forms of sodium acetate, the anhydride and the trihydrate. I would like to understand why their properties differ as they do. For instance, the trihydrate is much less soluble in water.


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## Steve85569 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anhydrous wants water, tryhdrate has already been chemically bonded if I remember my 1960's chemistry.

I think I'll order some in as long as I can find some anhydrate. The acetic acid has to ship hazmat which means the shipping is more than the material.  
The sodium acetate has free shipping.

Using SA also eliminates nearly all of the calculations - and Jan isn't always asking where the vinegar is.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 19, 2016)

Steve85569 said:


> Anhydrous wants water, tryhdrate has already been chemically bonded if I remember my 1960's chemistry.
> 
> I think I'll order some in as long as I can find some anhydrate. The acetic acid has to ship hazmat which means the shipping is more than the material.
> The sodium acetate has free shipping.
> ...



Sounds like a plan. I did the same myself for the second experiment.

So, anhydride sitting around eventually becomes trihydrate. But does it become trihydrate when you dissolve it in water? I guess not, since anhydride is way more soluble.

In 100 g water you can dissolve (depending on who you ask) something like 123 g anhydride or only 46 g trihydrate. So dissolved anhydride remains anhydride or it would precipitate out.

But to make things more confusing, I left a little anhydride solution in a plastic cup for some days and it formed what appeared to be very lovely sodium acetate trihydride crystals.

As you can see, I haven't quite wrapped my mind around it.


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## LisaAnne (Apr 21, 2016)

Murray, I believe I understand the process to try the vinegar soap recipe. I used grams but I will need to convert to ounces due to my scale. What I am asking about are the circled numbers. What do they represent and how do we get those numbers. I read all the posts on the subject but didn't find the answers there (but I also was on information ovetload).  


Thanks

Added: sideways on pic. If needed I will try and straighten. Oops


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 23, 2016)

LisaAnne said:


> Murray, I believe I understand the process to try the vinegar soap recipe. I used grams but I will need to convert to ounces due to my scale. What I am asking about are the circled numbers. What do they represent and how do we get those numbers. I read all the posts on the subject but didn't find the answers there (but I also was on information ovetload).



Heh, call me anything except Murray. 

Sorry to take so long. That's a very good question.

The numbers you circled are based on ratios of molecular weights. Some molecules are small and simple and don't weigh much, while others are composed of a lot of atoms and can weigh much more. These are the molecular weights of the 4 molecules involved in this chemical reaction:

acetic acid 60
sodium acetate 82
sodium hydroxide 40
water 18

The chemical reaction is:

1 acetic acid + 1 sodium hydroxide ---> 1 sodium acetate + 1 water

1 molecule acetic acid weighing 60 and 1 molecule sodium hydroxide weighing 40 yield 1 molecule sodium acetate weighing 82 and 1 molecule of water weighing 18. The total weight is the same on both sides because stuff can't just disappear or come out of thin air.

60 + 40 = 100 ---> 82 + 18 = 100

This ratio of weights holds at any level. 60 tons acetic acid reacted with 40 tons NaOH yields 82 tons sodium acetate and 18 tons of water. Or ounces or grams or pounds or milligrams. The units don't matter, just the relative weights.

So what is the relative weight of acetic acid to sodium acetate in this reaction? It's 60/82 = .73. To make 82 grams (or any other amount) of sodium acetate, we multiply it by .73, which is 60 grams acetic acid. To make 10 grams sodium acetate, multiply by .73 and you need 7.3 grams acetic acid.

We will be needing sodium hydroxide too, which is the same thing except 40 per 82, which is 40/82 = .49.


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## TeresaT (Apr 23, 2016)

LisaAnne said:


> Murray, I believe I understand the process to try the vinegar soap recipe. I used grams but I will need to convert to ounces due to my scale. What I am asking about are the circled numbers. What do they represent and how do we get those numbers. I read all the posts on the subject but didn't find the answers there (but I also was on information ovetload).
> 
> 
> Thanks
> ...




OH MY GOSH!  I am stealing this.  I've already copied the photo (and I'll turn it right side up),  NOW it actually makes sense to me.  (OK.  MORE sense that before, I'm not 100% there.)  I need to take your ciphering and actually write it down myself and think of my recipe and my ACV and my kitchen and then I'll totally understand it.  (I'm a really weird learner.  I like steps: step 1, turn on computer, step 2....)  Anyway, LisaAnne, thank you so much for your post.  And TOMH - thank you for your generosity and patience.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 23, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> OH MY GOSH!  I am stealing this.  I've already copied the photo (and I'll turn it right side up),  NOW it actually makes sense to me.  (OK.  MORE sense that before, I'm not 100% there.)  I need to take your ciphering and actually write it down myself and think of my recipe and my ACV and my kitchen and then I'll totally understand it.  (I'm a really weird learner.  I like steps: step 1, turn on computer, step 2....)  Anyway, LisaAnne, thank you so much for your post.  And TOMH - thank you for your generosity and patience.



I expect apple sauce. 

Judging by that piece of paper, I think LisaAnne is using the original, more technical instructions:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=570345&postcount=17


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## LisaAnne (Apr 23, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Heh, call me anything except Murray.
> 
> Sorry to take so long. That's a very good question.
> 
> ...



TOMH <- 

Thank you! You explained that perfectly, I will have to read it a couple of more times to bring it all together, but now it makes sense to me. Your complete and detailed answer is appreciated. I'm like Teresa I have to know why before I get it.


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## LisaAnne (Apr 23, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> OH MY GOSH!  I am stealing this.  I've already copied the photo (and I'll turn it right side up),  NOW it actually makes sense to me.  (OK.  MORE sense that before, I'm not 100% there.)  I need to take your ciphering and actually write it down myself and think of my recipe and my ACV and my kitchen and then I'll totally understand it.  (I'm a really weird learner.  I like steps: step 1, turn on computer, step 2....)  Anyway, LisaAnne, thank you so much for your post.  And TOMH - thank you for your generosity and patience.



 yes Teresa! I have to write it down and look at it just like you do, I even had my vinegar bottle on the table as a visual aid. That is how we Adders learn! (I didn't get the H in ADHD, just the ADD inattentive, blah blah!) 

And yes TOMH is very patient and generous with those of us that take a little longer.


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## TeresaT (Apr 23, 2016)

TOMH:  I'll send it next week.  Gotta get more bubble wrap.  BTW:  LisaAnne has more patience with sitting down to figure out the hard stuff and turn your instructions into something easy.  All I saw was "blah blah blah blah .49 blah blah blah has the water blah blah..."  She didn't get the "H" and that makes all the difference in the world.  LOL!


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## TeresaT (Apr 23, 2016)

LisaAnne said:


> yes Teresa! I have to write it down and look at it just like you do, _*I even had my vinegar bottle on the table as a visual aid*_. That is how we Adders learn! (I didn't get the H in ADHD, just the ADD inattentive, blah blah!)
> 
> And yes TOMH is very patient and generous with those of us that take a little longer.




That is hilarious!!  I actually planned on doing that!  You are so right about the "Adders" way of learning.  The more "visual" I can get (the more tactile as well) the better off I am.

ETA:  I did it.  I can't believe I actually did it.  (And I have a headache, too.  I think it's because I need to eat, but I'm blaming it on the math.)  I need to use 69 gm NaOH, 50 gm H20 and 87 gm ACV for my 500 gm oils to have an 8% SF and 2% SA.  (You will notice that even with your excellent cheat sheet, I still made mistakes and multiplied where I should have divided and divided where I should have multiplied.)


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 23, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> ETA:  I did it.  I can't believe I actually did it.  (And I have a headache, too.  I think it's because I need to eat, but I'm blaming it on the math.)



Good work.


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## LisaAnne (Apr 23, 2016)

TeresaT said:


> That is hilarious!!  I actually planned on doing that!  You are so right about the "Adders" way of learning.  The more "visual" I can get (the more textual as well) the better off I am.
> 
> ETA:  I did it.  I can't believe I actually did it.  (And I have a headache, too.  I think it's because I need to eat, but I'm blaming it on the math.)  I need to use 69 gm NaOH, 50 gm H20 and 87 gm ACV for my 500 gm oils to have an 8% SF and 2% SA.  (You will notice that even with your excellent cheat sheet, I still made mistakes and multiplied where I should have divided and divided where I should have multiplied.)




Woo hoo!  And pretty paper!


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## nikkisessence (Apr 24, 2016)

I get decently hard bars of all oil soaps with reducing water to 50:50 w:w in lye solution. You shouldn't need salt in bars but wait two days to unmold. Sodium increases the affinity of the soap molecules for each other. Sodium salts harder than potassium salt, adding salt to the reaction makes a harder bar. I use sugar at half of lye by weight to increase mycelle formation. *edit*micelle. I type fast and get excited. I like this discussion - please I hope I'm not an intrusion. I've not tested sodium acetate and that sounds interesting. Oils I have tested alone are peanut, soy, Olive, and Safflower. The Safflower was by far hardest and least resistant to rancidity. My next experent was to test potassium metabisulfite against rancidity and vanilla discoloration. I will look forward to more discussion here!


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## LisaAnne (Apr 24, 2016)

That is quite a bit more sugar than I use. I will try using more, thanks. I'm slowly lowering my liquids and it is making a difference.


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## LisaAnne (Apr 24, 2016)

nikkisessence said:


> I get decently hard bars of all oil soaps with reducing water to 50:50 w:w in lye solution. You shouldn't need salt in bars but wait two days to unmold. Sodium increases the affinity of the soap molecules for each other. Sodium salts harder than potassium salt, adding salt to the reaction makes a harder bar. I use sugar at half of lye by weight to increase mycelle formation. *edit*micelle. I type fast and get excited. I like this discussion - please I hope I'm not an intrusion. I've not tested sodium acetate and that sounds interesting. Oils I have tested alone are peanut, soy, Olive, and Safflower. The Safflower was by far hardest and least resistant to rancidity. My next experent was to test potassium metabisulfite against rancidity and vanilla discoloration. I will look forward to more discussion here!



I was looking up micelle formation and found some very interesting information. I have never heard that term. Thanks


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## nikkisessence (Apr 24, 2016)

The use of sugars in soaps improves lather most likely because it stabilizes the formations of micelles. This is partly why additives like honey and milks improve soaps.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 24, 2016)

nikkisessence said:


> The use of sugars in soaps improves lather most likely because it stabilizes the formations of micelles. This is partly why additives like honey and milks improve soaps.



My theory is that it solubilizes the soap somewhat, like castor oil. Sugar is commonly used as a solvent for making transparent soap. It makes the soap crystals smaller. With the amount of sugar you use, adding some glycerin as well would make your soap come out translucent. You would not see through it but you would certainly see light shining through.

Unfortunately it would also be pretty rubbery.


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## nikkisessence (Apr 24, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> My theory is that it solubilizes the soap somewhat, like castor oil. Sugar is commonly used as a solvent for making transparent soap. It makes the soap crystals smaller. With the amount of sugar you use, adding some glycerin as well would make your soap come out translucent. You would not see through it but you would certainly see light shining through.
> 
> Unfortunately it would also be pretty rubbery.



Yes, that is what I have found. I can stretch the soap to make roses that I glue together with soap that I have reheated.


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## nikkisessence (Apr 25, 2016)

Is this pertinent to this discussion?

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52250


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 25, 2016)

nikkisessence said:


> Is this pertinent to this discussion?
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=52250



It could be pertinent, but I wouldn't be too quick to conclude that. It was noted 100 years ago that sodium acetate and sodium lactate have very similar effects, which so far seems to be true. Sodium chloride, while also considered a hardener, seems to have some different effects. Another thing that could be as pertinent or even more so is similarities between corresponding sodium and potassium compounds, those being the two alkali metals common in soapmaking. For instance, sodium lactate and potassium lactate seem to have similar properties.


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## nikkisessence (Apr 25, 2016)

I'm probably way out of my league discussing this. My background is in the biological sciences (and even then more into bioinformatics). So, my Chemistry is probably not up to snuff. I do remember potassium and sodium as alkali metals, with sodium being the lighter. Acetate and lactate are both involved as precursors/important players for tca and other biochemical pathways. Perhaps acetate and lactate have some other polymerization going along side the soap polymer reaction? As table salt added would lend the sodium to reinforce the soap bond but leave excess chloride?


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