# Replacing water with vinegar



## dixiedragon (Jan 23, 2019)

So, I'm going to try it. I've read a few threads here but I'm not seeing something basic - maybe I missed it? Do I just measure out the vinegar and dump the lye crystals in it?


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## DeeAnna (Jan 23, 2019)

Here's my article about using vinegar in soap: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.html


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## dixiedragon (Jan 23, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> Here's my article about using vinegar in soap: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.html


100% vinegar? Or less?


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## DeeAnna (Jan 23, 2019)

Whatever you want. There's no set amount that is best. Of the people who have shared their experiences with vinegar, I  think most use vinegar as a full replacement for water.


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## Misschief (Jan 23, 2019)

I did. I made a batch a while back in which half the batch was made with water/lye and the other half with vinegar/lye. I'll see if I can find my notes. I do know that I still have one half bar of the vinegar soap after a couple of years and its hard and lathers beautifully. I made no allowances for the vinegar, incidentally.

https://www.missionmeadowssoapery.com/2016/10/soap-made.html


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## Ivanstein (Jan 29, 2019)

Do you have to up the lye to counteract the acetic acid? Most store bought vinegar is roughly 5% acetic acid and that would surely make some sodium acetate out of the lye causing an overshoot on the superfat... wouldn't it?


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## cmzaha (Jan 29, 2019)

I make most of my soaps with vinegar now using 50-100% vinegar. I multiply my vinegar amount by 0.0357 to get the additional amount of lye I need to compensate for the vinegar. I love the hardness and the way the soap lathers with vinegar, I also use a low superfat of 2%. 

ETA: I use distilled vinegar not apple cider vinegar


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## DeeAnna (Jan 30, 2019)

For those who might be wondering about the difference between Carolyn's method (Post 7) and my method (Post 2) for figuring out the NaOH to neutralize the vinegar -- they're exactly the same thing; they just look different. You can multiply the amount of vinegar by 0.0357 (Carolyn's method) to get the amount of NaOH needed to neutralize the 5% vinegar solution. Or you can divide the amount of vinegar by 28 (my method) to accomplish the same thing. Either way gives you the same answer.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 30, 2019)

made it last night! Super impressed by how hard it is this morning - I didn't gel it. We'll see how it unmolds!


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## cmzaha (Jan 30, 2019)

Anyone trying this, especially if you a high palm, lard and or tallow recipe do not leave in the mold 24 hrs. I cut mine in 8-12 hrs or I would not be able to cut. My vegan recipe is approx 40% palm and my non vegan is a tallow/lard recipe. Approx percentages are 45 % tallow 22% lard


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## dixiedragon (Jan 30, 2019)

Uh oh. I could be in trouble.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 30, 2019)

@dixiedragon. Hurry and cut it.   I haven’t tried this yet. May give it a shot next time I make soap. Maybe this weekend.


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## MGM (Jan 30, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> but I'm not seeing something basic - maybe I missed it?



Don't you mean you're not seeing something acidic? Bah-dum-bum.....


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## dixiedragon (Jan 30, 2019)

shunt2011 said:


> @dixiedragon. Hurry and cut it.   I haven’t tried this yet. May give it a shot next time I make soap. Maybe this weekend.


I'm at work. I made it last night at around 8 pm. Won't be home for about 4 more hrs. 

Dun dun dun.....stay tuned!


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## cmzaha (Jan 30, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> So, I'm going to try it. I've read a few threads here but I'm not seeing something basic - maybe I missed it? Do I just measure out the vinegar and dump the lye crystals in it?


I add the lye to right vinegar, but I do not suggest letting it sit long or masterbatching. Once the lye is added to the vinegar and reacts it will thicken up but it does still work fine. I just never masterbatch more that what I am going to use that day.


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## Ivanstein (Jan 30, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> I add the lye to right vinegar, but I do not suggest letting it sit long or masterbatching. Once the lye is added to the vinegar and reacts it will thicken up but it does still work fine. I just never masterbatch more that what I am going to use that day.


That makes sense because of the acetate result. Those are great at increasing viscosity.


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## cmzaha (Jan 30, 2019)

Ivanstein said:


> That makes sense because of the acetate result. Those are great at increasing viscosity.


Yes it does and it looks like it would be a problem because it actually forms little beads, but it works fine. I just never go with more lye/vinegar premix than I will use during my soaping day


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## DeeAnna (Jan 30, 2019)

Thanks for the info about the lye-vinegar mixture thickening up. I'll add this to my article about using vinegar in soap, so other soap makers can benefit from your experience.


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## Meena (Jan 30, 2019)

Misschief said:


> https://www.missionmeadowssoapery.com/2016/10/soap-made.html



Checked out some of your blog and Instagram.  That 'save' you did on the Viva Margarita that started accelerating before you were done getting it into the mold...  Wow ...  Probably a technique you wouldn't have done on purpose, but until I read the comment about it, I thought it WAS your on-purpose design!  They came out beautiful!!  

(cut soaps are here  https://www.instagram.com/p/BsqLOzKBGtW/ )


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## Misschief (Jan 30, 2019)

Meena said:


> Checked out some of your blog and Instagram.  That 'save' you did on the Viva Margarita that started accelerating before you were done getting it into the mold...  Wow ...  Probably a technique you wouldn't have done on purpose, but until I read the comment about it, I thought it WAS your on-purpose design!  They came out beautiful!!
> 
> (cut soaps are here  https://www.instagram.com/p/BsqLOzKBGtW/ )


Thank you. It isn't often that I get a batch that accelerates that quickly. It turned out a lot better than I thought it would.


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## KimT2au (Jan 30, 2019)

At the moment I master batch my lye, so can I confirm that if I wanted to replace the additional water with vinegar, I would have to add the additional lye to the master batched lye I have weighed out.  Is that correct?  Does it mean that using vinegar to replace the water that is not part of the master batched lye, rather than all of the water, that the bar would still be hard?



cmzaha said:


> I also use a low superfat of 2%.
> 
> ETA: I use distilled vinegar not apple cider vinegar



@cmzaha do you use a low superfat because of the vinegar or because you prefer it that way?  Do you use distilled vinegar because of the cost compared to ACV or for some other reason?


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## cmzaha (Jan 30, 2019)

I have low superfatted since my second year of soaping.  I mentioned my low superfat once in a forum and someone told me they would not touch my soap with a 10' pole. I just replied not to judge what you have not tried...My drains did not like all the oil going down the drain so I learned to make a nice balanced soap with low superfat, which has nothing to do with the vinegar. My plumbing bills became a lot less. I use distilled vinegar because it does not affect the color and their is no advantage to using ACV. 

If I use my 50/50 masterbatch lye I just replace the balance of my liquid with vinegar and multiply the amount of vinegar by 0.0357 to determine the extra lye required, adding it into the vinegar. Yes the bar is still hard with the 50% vinegar, but we have to remember, my recipes are also pretty hard


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## dixiedragon (Jan 30, 2019)

Turned out great! I was really impressed with how easily it unmolded. This was from my tall skinny mold which is usually a pain to unmold.


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## cmzaha (Jan 30, 2019)

dixiedragon said:


> Turned out great! I was really impressed with how easily it unmolded. This was from my tall skinny mold which is usually a pain to unmold.View attachment 35708
> View attachment 35709


Very nice looking. Will be curious how you like them after cure


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## shunt2011 (Jan 31, 2019)

@dixiedragon They turned out beautiful!   Now, I'm going to have to give it a go sometime soon.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 31, 2019)

So, if I want to make coffee soap, can I just put my coffee grounds in the vinegar, nuke it, let it cool and then make the lye water?


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## shunt2011 (Jan 31, 2019)

@dixiedragon   Look at you go!


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## dixiedragon (Jan 31, 2019)

I admit, I expected a violent reaction when I added the lye to the vinegar. But...nothing! It didn't even fizz a bit like it does when you add it to water. the lye crystals just sat there until I stirred. 

I usually don't use my TS molds because it's so difficult to get the soap out. I was doing a long gel in the oven, then freezing, then hot water, then squeeze and pushing and pulling. Then bars a the end usually got a bit mangled. This just slid right out after I broke the seal.


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## cmzaha (Jan 31, 2019)

I just use used coffee grounds and add them to my oils, but I am sure you could add them to your vinegar lye mix. You are not adding in a large amount of extra lye.


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## smengot0 (Feb 2, 2019)

Very useful information. Thanks. I think I should try using vinegar instead of water in my recipes. Or at least water:vinegar ratio of 50:50.


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## earlene (Feb 2, 2019)

I may be late to the thread, but thought I'd mention this.  Generally I don't use animal fats in my soap, so was surprised to find that the time I used lard and 100% vinegar replacement, the soap was very brittle.  So my assumption was that the vinegar at that strength was far too much.  I have not had such a brittle soap any other time.  It was extremely hard soap, too, which was good, but it was so brittle that cutting it caused it to break in weird ways reminiscent of pieces of rock that come off a mountain side in odd shapes.

Incidentally when I make soap with vinegar I do the calculations for adjusting the lye, but may have made some sort of mistake with that batch in the calculations.  I cannot be completely sure as it was a couple of years or so ago.


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## cmzaha (Feb 3, 2019)

earlene said:


> I may be late to the thread, but thought I'd mention this.  Generally I don't use animal fats in my soap, so was surprised to find that the time I used lard and 100% vinegar replacement, the soap was very brittle.  So my assumption was that the vinegar at that strength was far too much.  I have not had such a brittle soap any other time.  It was extremely hard soap, too, which was good, but it was so brittle that cutting it caused it to break in weird ways reminiscent of pieces of rock that come off a mountain side in odd shapes.
> 
> Incidentally when I make soap with vinegar I do the calculations for adjusting the lye, but may have made some sort of mistake with that batch in the calculations.  I cannot be completely sure as it was a couple of years or so ago.


My non-vegan soap is approx 45/20 tallow lard and my vegan soaps are 45% palm. They do not turn out extremely brittle, but I have to cut in 8-12 hrs


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## dixiedragon (Feb 4, 2019)

I use 40% lard in my soaps. I definitely noticed more crumbly bits. The bars aren't damaged, but it's almost like little soap shavings? The soap was 24 hrs old when I cut, so I will definitely cut sooner with vinegar after this!


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## ps1cute (Feb 21, 2020)

dixiedragon said:


> I use 40% lard in my soaps. I definitely noticed more crumbly bits. The bars aren't damaged, but it's almost like little soap shavings? The soap was 24 hrs old when I cut, so I will definitely cut sooner with vinegar after this!


I maybe getting on this thread late, but I've questioned also if ACV could be used in soap. I've seen a lot of people sell soap with that additive, but didn't understand how it was incorporated. I haven't been soaping long, so some stuff still goes over my head, but with the recipe you used, did you use the vinegar at 100% of water replacement or was it 50:50?


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## dixiedragon (Feb 21, 2020)

I used vinegar at 100%. I was able to look up the recipe I used in Soapee (go soapee!) I used a 0% superfat, since the vinegar will eat up some of the lye, so my actual ending superfat is in the 5% range. I've never used AVC and I'd be concerned about it making the soap brownish. But if you're okay with that, then I'd try it at 100% water replacement and a superfat of 0%. Or maybe a 50% with a superfat of 2 or 3%.


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## cmzaha (Feb 21, 2020)

dixiedragon said:


> I used vinegar at 100%. I was able to look up the recipe I used in Soapee (go soapee!) I used a 0% superfat, since the vinegar will eat up some of the lye, so my actual ending superfat is in the 5% range. I've never used AVC and I'd be concerned about it making the soap brownish. But if you're okay with that, then I'd try it at 100% water replacement and a superfat of 0%. Or maybe a 50% with a superfat of 2 or 3%.


Can I ask why you do not just use the factor of 0.357 x the amount of vinegar, adding in the extra lye, and control the superfat as you normally would?


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## dixiedragon (Feb 21, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> Can I ask why you do not just use the factor of 0.357 x the amount of vinegar, adding in the extra lye, and control the superfat as you normally would?



Because math is hard, lol.

I have no idea how to do that. where would I add that in Soapee?


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## Kcryss (Feb 21, 2020)

dixiedragon said:


> Because math is hard, lol.
> 
> I have no idea how to do that. where would I add that in Soapee?



Soapmakingfriend does the math for you.


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## Quilter99755 (Feb 22, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> Soapmakingfriend does the math for you.


I just went into Soapmakingfriend's calculator and using my last recipe the only way I could enter the vinegar was to halve the liquid in the recipe and use it as a given gram rate for the vinegar.  Example: the total grams for the liquid was 300, I put in 150 grams of vinegar and calculated the recipe.  The lye was adjusted but also the liquid was a little more than a total of 300.  Did I do this right?  Or is there a better way to do the formula?

So this is making a harder soap (that you unmold and cut faster) with possibly better lather?  I did not see any differences in the Recipe Properties or Fatty Acids so it is not changing the soaping process, so to speak. I'm not big on the chemistry part of soaping...just trying to find some good recipes for my skin(and family) and ones that are longer lasting, to boot. Thanks to DeeAnna I finally realized that Hard does not equate to Long lasting. But possibly the vinegar addition might be better for my kids in Hawaii, since that is one of their complaints about my soap. Since it is free, it's the only complaint! LOL


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## Kcryss (Feb 22, 2020)

Quilter99755 said:


> I just went into Soapmakingfriend's calculator and using my last recipe the only way I could enter the vinegar was to halve the liquid in the recipe and use it as a given gram rate for the vinegar.  Example: the total grams for the liquid was 300, I put in 150 grams of vinegar and calculated the recipe.  The lye was adjusted but also the liquid was a little more than a total of 300.  Did I do this right?  Or is there a better way to do the formula?



That is a very good question. I've been using it to do my calculations and have had a great deal of trouble with HP taking forever and a day to cook. Wondering now if the problem was actually with the vinegar calculation. The last batch I made was without vinegar and a few other additives, and it cooked in 14 minutes ... guess I'll have to build a spreadsheet with formulas to do that math for me and see if there is a difference.


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## Quilter99755 (Feb 22, 2020)

I use it for the calculation for Citric Acid and that seems to work. I just didn't know if the way I put in the Vinegar was the way you used the formula.  I also do HP and I've give my cooks about 20 minutes, give or take a bit. But I have never used vinegar.  Guess I will have to try that out, too!


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## Kcryss (Feb 22, 2020)

Quilter99755 said:


> I use it for the calculation for Citric Acid and that seems to work. I just didn't know if the way I put in the Vinegar was the way you used the formula.  I also do HP and I've give my cooks about 20 minutes, give or take a bit. But I have never used vinegar.  Guess I will have to try that out, too!



Yeah, just decided to stop being lazy and did the math. lol
You're right. The calculator is wrong and likely the cause of my 1.5 hr cook times. 
100g of 5% vinegar will require an additional 3.57 grams of NaOH but should not increase the amount of water in the recipe.

So I just threw a hypothetical recipe into the calculator with no additives.
water needed = 185.18
lye needed = 68.59

Added 100g vinegar and now the calculation shows
water needed = 94.8g (not including the 100g vinegar)
lye needed = 72.15
So, the lye calculation is almost dead on with a difference of 3.56 and the water increased by 9.62g. Not sure if that is enough to make the difference in cook time I was experiencing, but maybe the CA is off too.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2020)

I'd say this needs to get fixed if the Soapmaking Friend isn't calculating the water correctly when vinegar is being used in a recipe. @Angie -- can you help?

Bear in mind that 100 grams of vinegar is 5 g of acetic acid and 95 g of water. I'm not digging into the math at all right now, just taking these comments at face value. 

@Kcryss maybe you can confirm the Soapmaking Friend calculations are correct or not?


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## Kcryss (Feb 22, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> Yeah, just decided to stop being lazy and did the math. lol
> You're right. The calculator is wrong and likely the cause of my 1.5 hr cook times.
> 100g of 5% vinegar will require an additional 3.57 grams of NaOH but should not increase the amount of water in the recipe.
> 
> ...



Checked CA calculation ... same thing. Wrong. That will teach me to trust other peoples calculations.  
From now on, I will do my own.
Thanks to @DeeAnna for her SoapyStuff info I have the necessary calculations to do it myself. 



DeeAnna said:


> I'd say this needs to get fixed if the Soapmaking Friend isn't calculating the water correctly when vinegar is being used in a recipe. @Angie -- can you help?


The CA calculation as well. Does the same thing.

@DeeAnna

Ohh ... good point. Didn't think of that. Let me check.

So, yes. Still off, just not by as much now.
5g removed from the liquid total should increase liquid needed by the same 5g, but is increasing an additional 4.62g for the same 100g of vinegar.


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## cmzaha (Feb 22, 2020)

What the calculator SMF is doing is figuring the extra liquid requirement for the extra lye amount necessary for the vinegar.

What I still find the calculator does not do is subtract the vinegar amount from the required liquid, even if you turn on the "liquid discount" box. This is why I do not depend on the calculator to do my calculations for vinegar usage which I pretty much use in all my soaps.

Kcyrss, I am still wondering if you are actually using double the amount of liquid needed for your batch. Or at least the required liquid plus your added vinegar


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## Kcryss (Feb 22, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> What the calculator SMF is doing is figuring the extra liquid requirement for the extra lye amount necessary for the vinegar. What I still find the calculator does not do is subtract the vinegar amount from the required liquid, even if you turn on the "liquid discount" box. This is why I do not depend on the calculator to do my calculations for vinegar usage which I pretty much use in all my soaps. Kcyrss, I am still wondering if you are actually using double the amount of liquid needed for your batch.



Yeah, I think the calculation may have been the problem with the loooong cook times as well. I'm going to try another batch with just the addition of vinegar, but will do that calculation myself and also check it against SMF calculator.


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## GML (Feb 22, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> Yeah, I think the calculation may have been the problem with the loooong cook times as well. I'm going to try another batch with just the addition of vinegar, but will do that calculation myself and also check it against SMF calculator.



Don't worry, I'll skip the "told you so" dance.


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## Kcryss (Feb 22, 2020)

GML said:


> Don't worry, I'll skip the "told you so" dance.



LOL, go ahead, I can take it!


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## GML (Feb 22, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> LOL, go ahead, I can take it!



Glad you resolved the issue.


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## Kcryss (Feb 22, 2020)

@DeeAnna
Here's the math:






So, if I make this recipe using 13.5g CA and 100g vinegar, I will need to use 139.74g NaOH.
Original lye calculation 127.74 + soapystuff increase (CA)  8.42 + soapystuff increase (vin) 3.57 = 139.74
Liquid should be  original calc 344.89 + increase for vinegar 5g = 349.89 (water 249.89, vin 100)

Please someone correct me if these calculations are wrong.


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## Pepsi Girl (Feb 22, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I have low superfatted since my second year of soaping.  I mentioned my low superfat once in a forum and someone told me they would not touch my soap with a 10' pole. I just replied not to judge what you have not tried...My drains did not like all the oil going down the drain so I learned to make a nice balanced soap with low superfat, which has nothing to do with the vinegar. My plumbing bills became a lot less



So when you say low super fat, how low?  I don’t think my plumbing likes it either!


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## cmzaha (Feb 22, 2020)

Pepsi Girl said:


> So when you say low super fat, how low?  I don’t think my plumbing likes it either!


I superfat at 2% other than soleseif and salt bars.



Kcryss said:


> @DeeAnna
> Here's the math:
> View attachment 44063
> 
> ...


Your calculations are correct although confusing to me, just too many calculations.  Or maybe I should say too much verbiage for me. I keep things simple and I do not change the initial water requirement. So I would use 139 g NaOH (rounded down) and 245 g water with 100 g vinegar.

I simply multiply my CA amount by 0.624 and my vinegar usage by 0.0357 to come up with the extra NaOH.


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## Prysm (Feb 22, 2020)

I've let the people of the SoapMakingFriend know of the water/vinegar issue and gave them this thread to check out.


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## Mobjack Bay (Feb 23, 2020)

I deleted this post because the way I was doing the calculation was wrong...


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## DeeAnna (Feb 23, 2020)

I don't have a dog in this fight, because I don't use Soapmaking Friend to create my soap recipes, nor do I have any particular input into how it is designed.

I am starting to recommend this calc to other soap makers because it does allow people to use additives like vinegar without having to deal with the math. If the calculations are not complete and correct, however, that's not good.

I really appreciate how responsive the developers have been. I'm certain it's been a daunting task to slog through all the features people have asked for, and the developers have done a bang-up job of responding to the challenge. This calc has the potential to have an excellent reputation in the soap making community.

@Mobjack Bay -- 

Commercial vinegar sold for cooking and household use is 5% acetic acid. About 1 fluid ounce (2 tablespoons, 1 ounce by weight, or 28 grams) of this commercial vinegar contains 1.5 g acetic acid.

1 oz by weight (28 g) of commercial 5% vinegar neutralizes about 1 g NaOH. 1 oz by weight (28 g) of commercial 5% vinegar neutralizes about 1.4 g KOH.


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## atiz (Feb 23, 2020)

I have been doing full water replacement with vinegar based on the SMF calculations. I did not double check the math, so this has been helpful, even though I had no problem at all with the SMF-recommended amounts. I assume the amount of water is more important in HP than in CP.


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

@atiz I believe that is correct. In my case because I was using both ca and vinegar and the calculation being wrong for both I was getting a double whammy. Not enough lye and too much water for ca, then more water for vinegar. It was taking a really long time to cook.  With CP, it would maybe take a bit longer to saponify but probably wouldn't be as noticable.


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

@DeeAnna , I agree about that calculator and have recommended it in threads many times. I am going to do my own calculations for any vinegar or ca that I use, but will still use the calculator. 
Does this information need to get to anyone in particular or has that been taken care of with your notice to the admin?


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## DeeAnna (Feb 23, 2020)

See post 53, @Kcryss. Angie has routed this issue to the right folks.


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> See post 53, @Kcryss. Angie has routed this issue to the right folks.


Oops, didn't see that. Thank you!


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## cmzaha (Feb 23, 2020)

I will once again mention the calculations for the extra NaOH required are Correct. If using 100% Vinegar for Water replacement the liquid requirement will be Correct. The problem comes in when using less than 100% vinegar as a replacement for water such as when using masterbatch at 50% as I do. The program still figures the NaOH correctly adding in the extra necessary amount no matter how much vinegar you enter in to use. Where the issue is even if you check the Liquid Discount Box it is not deducting the Vinegar from the liquid requirement. I know I mentioned this problem quite a while back and if I remember correctly it was fixed for a while. Angie and the developers will get it taken care of. 

I never found the calculations to be off for the Lye requirements, and I use vinegar for all my batches. 

They have done an outstanding job with this calculator, amazing me how Angie and the developers have gone above and beyond to include all the features people asked for.


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I will once again mention the calculations for the extra NaOH required are Correct.



Agreed, the lye calculation is fine for vinegar, but not CA.




cmzaha said:


> If using 100% Vinegar for Water replacement the liquid requirement will be Correct. The problem comes in when using less than 100% vinegar as a replacement for water such as when using masterbatch at 50% as I do. The program still figures the NaOH correctly adding in the extra necessary amount no matter how much vinegar you enter in to use. Where the issue is even if you check the Liquid Discount Box it is not deducting the Vinegar from the liquid requirement. I know I mentioned this problem quite a while back and if I remember correctly it was fixed for a while. Angie and the developers will get it taken care of.



Ah, that makes sense, especially since I don't use 100% vinegar. I do half aloe and half vinegar.




cmzaha said:


> They have done an outstanding job with this calculator, amazing me how Angie and the developers have gone above and beyond to include all the features people asked for.



Agreed, this is my favorite calculator by far and the only one I use. I do use soapcal when playing around with oils because it gives the numbers right there ... no scrolling required etc. However, once I make a final decision, I use SMF for the actual recipe.

The bigger issue here is actually with CA and since I was using both, it was a combination of the two that caused my long cook time issue (I think).
According to the math DeeAnna provides on SoapyStuff, the lye calculation for CA is off. In the example I provided above, the SMF calculator was short by 2.25g and increased the water by 16.68g. Combine that with the water increase for using only half the liquid as vinegar and the water was a bit more than required on top of a 3:1 water to lye ratio. 

I never selected the liquid discount option for CA as it is a powder not a liquid so that option didn't make sense to me. I see now that using that option decreases the increased water by a lot and would at the very least be a bit closer to what is needed. I suspect there was an assumption that the CA was a liquid (like a citrus juice).


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## Mobjack Bay (Feb 23, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, because I don't use Soapmaking Friend to create my soap recipes, nor do I have any particular input into how it is designed.
> 
> I am starting to recommend this calc to other soap makers because it does allow people to use additives like vinegar without having to deal with the math. If the calculations are not complete and correct, however, that's not good.
> 
> ...



thanks DeeAnna!

My calculation, based on that information and an imaginary recipe that uses 100 g of liquid:
Acetic acid is 5% of the 28 g of commercial 5% vinegar = 5% of  28 g = 0.05 x 28 g = 1.4 g acetic acid in 28 g of vinegar
Which means that 1.4 g acetic acid neutralizes 1 g NaOH
For every 1 g of acetic acid I add when using vinegar, I should be adding an additional 0.714 g of NaOH
For the 5 g of acetic acid in 100 g of vinegar, I should be adding an extra 3.57 g of NaOH (= 5 x 0.714)

Happily, this matches the calculation using @cmzaha relationship (see post #52) —> 100 g of vinegar x 0.0357 = 3.57 g extra NaOH.

The NaOH is calculated correctly in the SMF calculator if I set the vinegar additive to 100 g for my imaginary recipe that requires 100 g of liquid.  It also means that I was not doing using the calculator correctly when I was adding the weight of the acetic acid in the vinegar additive box.  It makes sense now, but the calculator led me astray because it auto-populated the field with “8”.  But, even then I should have suspected something was up because it wasn’t “5”.  The info box in the calculator could state “add the weight of commercial (5%) vinegar you will use to replace water in the recipe” or something like that.  If I select “liquid discount” for the 100 g of vinegar, the calculator does not tell me that I will need 5 g of water to replace the 5 g of acetic acid in the vinegar.  Just as when adding a food purée, it’s up to me to know the water content of whatever I’m using as a water replacement.  That’s fine, but again, it would help to have a clearer explanation in the information box.

For the soaps I made over the last week, I was not adding enough extra NaOH, which means my SF is higher than I intended.  I start at a low SF, so it’s not a disaster, but I will do the SF calculation next and thank goodness it wasn’t the other way around...  and, double thank goodness this thread came up now and not months from now.  I also should have known to run through a hand calculation of the NaOH needed for the vinegar.

ETA: I wasn’t using MB lye for my imaginary recipe and didn’t catch that there’s another problem with the calculator.  Thanks @cmzaha for mentioning that issue!


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## cmzaha (Feb 23, 2020)

What I found it seems the calculator multiplied the CA by 0.45 instead of 0.624 but I could be wrong. Math is not my strong suit.. Since I do not use CA anymore I never paid attention to the calculations in SMF. I was just playing with this morning and this was what I came up with.


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> What I found it seems the calculator multiplied the CA by 0.45 instead of 0.624 but I could be wrong. Math is not my strong suit.. Since I do not use CA anymore I never paid attention to the calculations in SMF. I was just playing with this morning and this was what I came up with.


LOL, well at least you did the math to see what it was doing, I only did the math to show it was wrong. 
Now I can't wait to make another batch with adding vinegar and CA back in ... hoping for that 14 minute cook time again!


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## cmzaha (Feb 23, 2020)

Good Luck Kcryss


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> Good Luck Kcryss



Fingers crossed!


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## Mobjack Bay (Feb 23, 2020)

@Kcryss I don’t know if it matters for HP soap, but some experienced makers reported that using vinegar and citric acid together results in soft soap.  It was not a lye problem.  

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/vinegar-and-citric-acid.76921/#post-795253


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## Arimara (Feb 23, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> What I found it seems the calculator multiplied the CA by 0.45 instead of 0.624 but I could be wrong. Math is not my strong suit.. Since I do not use CA anymore I never paid attention to the calculations in SMF. I was just playing with this morning and this was what I came up with.


 As inspiring as it is to try to calculate this myself, I'm better off not using those additives until the  calculator is fixed. My brain sucks monkeys when it comes to math now.


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## Quilter99755 (Feb 23, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> @Kcryss I don’t know if it matters for HP soap, but some experienced makers reported that using vinegar and citric acid together results in soft soap.  It was not a lye problem.
> 
> https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/vinegar-and-citric-acid.76921/#post-795253


They also used SMF's calculator which may or may not have had the correct amount of total liquid. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this conversation. I have a better grasp on the math part of doing the calculations and will use that when I decide to use vinegar in my soaps.  And for sure will do the math for CA until I know that SMF calculator is fixed.  I'm trying to redo some of my soaps so that I have less SF due to hard water and pipe problems. This means all my use of CA was just making the SF back up to what it had been.  Better late than never. I do hope that it gets fixed as I really prefer the SMF calculator for some reason.


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## Mobjack Bay (Feb 23, 2020)

One person mentions using the calculator, but not the others.  I wouldn’t rule out problems with CA and vinegar together just yet.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 23, 2020)

I agree with @Mobjack Bay -- I suspect using both citric acid and vinegar can indeed cause bar soap to be softer. I don't know what people are doing when they use both, but if the "usual" dosage is used for each acid and they're combined together in one soap, that salt load may be too much of a good thing. 

It may be (just a guess -- I don't have proof of this) that the total combined salt load should be kept below a certain amount to get the most benefits and the fewest disadvantages.

The effect of too much salt is really obvious in liquid soap. The viscosity (thickness) of certain types of liquid soap will increase as salts are added, but only up to a given point. Add more salt after that point is reached, and the soap thins out. 

Some soapers report sodium lactate over about 3% can cause bar soap to have a rubbery texture. I haven't heard too much about that lately here on SMF, but this issue pops up occasionally.


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## cmzaha (Feb 23, 2020)

I have never tried Vinegar with CA. I use Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Gluconate and Vinegar together with no issues.


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## GML (Feb 23, 2020)

So I was doing some research on citric acid and have read various answers: What exactly is the purpose of using CA in soap?


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

Mobjack Bay said:


> @Kcryss I don’t know if it matters for HP soap, but some experienced makers reported that using vinegar and citric acid together results in soft soap.  It was not a lye problem.
> 
> https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/vinegar-and-citric-acid.76921/#post-795253



Thanks Mobjack! The soap isn't soft once it actually cooks. Just takes forever and a day to get it zap free.


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

Quilter99755 said:


> They also used SMF's calculator which may or may not have had the correct amount of total liquid. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this conversation. I have a better grasp on the math part of doing the calculations and will use that when I decide to use vinegar in my soaps.  And for sure will do the math for CA until I know that SMF calculator is fixed.  I'm trying to redo some of my soaps so that I have less SF due to hard water and pipe problems. This means all my use of CA was just making the SF back up to what it had been.  Better late than never. I do hope that it gets fixed as I really prefer the SMF calculator for some reason.



The math is actually pretty easy if you have a spreadsheet to do it for you. I'm still using the calculator for the actual lye/liquid, but I write both down before adding CA/vinegar. Then, I add one at a time.
I add the CA, get the grams needed  (I use 1.5% ppo). Then I do the math  =CA grams*6.24/10. So if I need 13.5 grams of CA, the calculation would be 13.5*6.24/10 = 8.42, then I add the 8.42 to whatever the calculator originally calculated for the lye.
Same with vinegar, although the lye calculation there is fine, so it's just a matter of increasing the original liquid by 5g for the 100g of vinegar (that's all I use for a 900g batch of soap).
For the liquid, I am just going to use the original stated quantity +5g. 

I will be trying this out tonight and post the results of the experiment here.
Tonights batch will be = 13.5g CA, 100g vinegar, 9g SG. No other additives before cook. 900g batch and 2% SF after cook.


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

GML said:


> So I was doing some research on citric acid and have read various answers: What exactly is the purpose of using CA in soap?



It helps to decrease soap scum in hard water. Sodium Gluconate does that as well, but I've read several threads/blogs in which people seem to like using both. To be honest, I don't know that both are really needed, but the water in the Denver area is very hard so I'm using both ... I know, probably overkill ...


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## GML (Feb 23, 2020)

I found this after I posted and it explains what you're saying. 

https://www.ultimatehpsoap.com/post/soapy-science-citric-acid-in-soap-making


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

GML said:


> I found this after I posted and it explains what you're saying.
> 
> https://www.ultimatehpsoap.com/post/soapy-science-citric-acid-in-soap-making



DeeAnn has some info on her page as well and includes the calculations needed. 
https://classicbells.com/soap/citricAcid.asp
https://classicbells.com/soap/chelator.asp
https://classicbells.com/soap/citrate.asp


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## Arimara (Feb 23, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> It helps to decrease soap scum in hard water. Sodium Gluconate does that as well, but I've read several threads/blogs in which people seem to like using both. To be honest, I don't know that both are really needed, but the water in the Denver area is very hard so I'm using both ... I know, probably overkill ...


Likely not. If sodium gluconate up's citric acid's effectiveness when it becomes sodium citrate, you're better off adding it.


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## Kcryss (Feb 23, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> I agree with @Mobjack Bay -- I suspect using both citric acid and vinegar can indeed cause bar soap to be softer. I don't know what people are doing when they use both, but if the "usual" dosage is used for each acid and they're combined together in one soap, that salt load may be too much of a good thing.
> 
> It may be (just a guess -- I don't have proof of this) that the total combined salt load should be kept below a certain amount to get the most benefits and the fewest disadvantages.



I wonder if too much salt is causing the long cook times?

Prior to getting the Sodium Gluconate, I was using CA/Vinegar. I never used the full amount of vinegar, never more than 150g in a batch of 900g of oils. However, I was still having trouble with long cook times.

When I used SG/water only, the batch cooked in 14 minutes.

Tonight, my trial batch with making adjustments for the CA and vinegar, is back to the long cook times. 

However, while stirring/cooking/stirring/cooking I realized that maybe, to your point, the salt is the problem. I have a water softener and even though I don't use tap water straight from the faucet, I am using filtered water that came from the tap. 

Is it possible that there is still salt getting through the filter and that combined with ca/vinegar and now SG that the cause is too much salt? Maybe I should just stop trying to use vinegar and try it with distilled water, ca/sg.


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## RDak (Feb 24, 2020)

A bit off topic......

Will an equal amount of vinegar  add the same basic benefits to the soap as an equal amount of sodium lactate would (e.g., hardening up the soap more quickly for unmolding purposes)?


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## DeeAnna (Feb 24, 2020)

"..._Is it possible that there is still salt getting through the filter and that combined with ca/vinegar and now SG that the cause is too much salt?_..."

Softened water contains maybe 10-15 milligrams of sodium per 8 ounces (~250 grams) of water based on a quick Google search. That's around 0.006% by weight.

I don't want to get into calculating the salt load from softened water, vinegar, and citric acid this morning, so I'll just ask you to think about this --

The 0.006% sodium in softened water is minuscule. You can't even taste the sodium in softened water. This amount is way, WAY less compared with vinegar at 5% acetic acid or however much citric acid you're using when the CA is dissolved in water.

Focus on the salt load from your additives. That's where your problems are coming from.


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## Kcryss (Feb 24, 2020)

DeeAnna said:


> Focus on the salt load from your additives. That's where your problems are coming from.



Thanks DeeAnna. Makes sense. I will skip the vinegar on the next batch and cross my fingers


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## Kcryss (Feb 24, 2020)

RDak said:


> A bit off topic......
> 
> Will an equal amount of vinegar  add the same basic benefits to the soap as an equal amount of sodium lactate would (e.g., hardening up the soap more quickly for unmolding purposes)?



I don't know if an equal amount will do the same as sodium lactate but here is additional info on using vinegar in soap: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.asp


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## cmzaha (Feb 24, 2020)

May I ask why you are determined to use CA? I use Vinegar and SG in all batches. I do split my SG with my Tetrasodium EDTA, but that is only because I am using up 5 lbs of Tetrasodium EDTA. I have used SG up to 1% and it works better than CA ever work as a chelator for me or for my daughter who has extremely hard well water with high arsenic levels. (no they do not drink the water). I do find many products sold in her area contain both Tetrasodium EDTA and SG. I always hated the way CA would crystalize on the outside of my soap when I added enough CA to actually help as a chelator. 

To answer the above question, post #82, I find it takes at least a 50% water replacement with vinegar to notice a hardness in soap and quick un-molding.


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## Kcryss (Feb 24, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> May I ask why you are determined to use CA? I use Vinegar and SG in all batches. I do split my SG with my Tetrasodium EDTA, but that is only because I am using up 5 lbs of Tetrasodium EDTA. I have used SG up to 1% and it works better than CA ever work as a chelator for me or for my daughter who has extremely hard well water with high arsenic levels. (no they do not drink the water). I do find many products sold in her area contain both Tetrasodium EDTA and SG. I always hated the way CA would crystalize on the outside of my soap when I added enough CA to actually help as a chelator.
> 
> To answer the above question, post #82, I find it takes at least a 50% water replacement with vinegar to notice a hardness in soap and quick un-molding.



To be honest I was hoping it helped with the hard water issues, but based on what you're saying with the SG, maybe I really don't need it. I've read several threads/blogs where people are still using both, but maybe that really is overkill. 

Also, I do HP, so I really don't have unmolding issues or issues with hardness to be honest. So figured getting rid of the vinegar as a first step was the best option. 

To your point though if SG at 1% works better than CA, I could go back to just the SG and add my aloe back in since I'm really missing that one.

As an experienced soaper, do you think both SG and CA are overkill or is it potentially upping the chelating factor?


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## cmzaha (Feb 24, 2020)

I really do not think both are necessary and as I mentioned I really do not like using CA. It is really trial and error. When my Tetrasodium EDTA is gone I will go with SG at 1% instead of EDTA and SG at 0.5% each. This is based on my total batch weight not ppo.


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## Kcryss (Feb 24, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I really do not think both are necessary and as I mentioned I really do not like using CA. It is really trial and error. When my Tetrasodium EDTA is gone I will go with SG at 1% instead of EDTA and SG at 0.5% each. This is based on my total batch weight not ppo.


I will give a try. Thanks


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## RDak (Feb 25, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> I don't know if an equal amount will do the same as sodium lactate but here is additional info on using vinegar in soap: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.asp


Thank you!


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## Pepsi Girl (Feb 26, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I superfat at 2% other than soleseif and salt bars..


Thank you!


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## RDak (Mar 2, 2020)

Jesus you guys and gals know your stuff!!

Just tried some vinegar (only 56 grams in a batch that called for 1,023 grams of liquid), added the 2 extra grams of lye as required and even that little bit hardened up the soap decently after 24 hours.  (That is all I wanted it to do so hopefully I could use that instead of sodium lactate.)  Well, now I can thanks to all of you.  

Now if it helps with lather it is a total win!

You guys and gals are a wealth of info and I want to thank all of you because I never used vinegar in making soap.  Been making soap for a long time but I just had never heard of using some vinegar.  Thanks again!


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## ps1cute (Mar 11, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> I make most of my soaps with vinegar now using 50-100% vinegar. I multiply my vinegar amount by 0.0357 to get the additional amount of lye I need to compensate for the vinegar. I love the hardness and the way the soap lathers with vinegar, I also use a low superfat of 2%.
> 
> ETA: I use distilled vinegar not apple cider vinegar



Hey there.  I know this is an old post and a commonly asked question but I am still confused. For example, If I'm doing 50% lye of the water solution, which is 4.62 and the other water portion is 4.62. The lye amt is 3.94. do I multiply 0.0357 × 4.62=.165 Then add that to 4.62 to 3.94 get total lye of 4.11. Is this correct?


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## cmzaha (Mar 11, 2020)

ps1cute said:


> Hey there.  I know this is an old post and a commonly asked question but I am still confused. For example, If I'm doing 50% lye of the water solution, which is 4.62 and the other water portion is 4.62. The lye amt is 3.94. do I multiply 0.0357 × 4.62=.165 Then add that to 4.62 to 3.94 get total lye of 4.11. Is this correct?


*Then add that to 4.62 to 3.94* This is a little confusing to me. You add the .16+3.94 (lye)= 4.1 oz total lye necessary if using 4.62 oz vinegar. Always multiply your vinegar use by 0.0357 to get your extra lye requirement.

Once again I want to mention SMF is Not deducting the Vinegar from the liquid requirement when checking the water discount box after adding vinegar in the additives section, so please all be careful if you use this function. You can very well end up with to much water if you are not using 100% vinegar as water replacement. That is somewhat hard to do because SMF always ups the water when it adds in the small amount of extra lye which is something I do not do. There is already plenty of liquid to add in the small bit of extra lye, no need to up the water. I simply stay away from that function and do my own math. I tried a new recipe today, well somewhat new to see if the function is working and no it is not. It does figure the extra lye requirement properly.


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## ps1cute (Mar 11, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> *Then add that to 4.62 to 3.94* This is a little confusing to me. You add the .16+3.94 (lye)= 4.1 oz total lye necessary if using 4.62 oz vinegar. Always multiply your vinegar use by 0.0357 to get your extra lye requirement.
> 
> Once again I want to mention SMF is Not deducting the Vinegar from the liquid requirement when checking the water discount box after adding vinegar in the additives section, so please all be careful if you use this function. You can very well end up with to much water if you are not using 100% vinegar as water replacement. That is somewhat hard to do because SMF always ups the water when it adds in the small amount of extra lye which is something I do not do. There is already plenty of liquid to add in the small bit of extra lye, no need to up the water. I simply stay away from that function and do my own math. I tried a new recipe today, well somewhat new to see if the function is working and no it is not. It does figure the extra lye requirement properly.


I think I've confused myself... LOL where'd you get the. 16 from? Im sure I didn't explain it correctly.  My total water for the recipe is 9.24oz. I was gonna do half acv. So that's where I got the 4.62 from.


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## cmzaha (Mar 11, 2020)

ps1cute said:


> I think I've confused myself... LOL where'd you get the. 16 from? Im sure I didn't explain it correctly.  My total water for the recipe is 9.24oz. I was gonna do half acv. So that's where I got the 4.62 from.


The 0.16 oz is from multiplying the 4.62 vinegar by 0.0357 to get the extra required lye needed.  4.62 oz  x 0.0357 = 0.164 oz extra lye needed.


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## David James (Mar 11, 2020)

None of the calculators appear to make the use of vinegar 100% predictable. SMF at least adjusts the lye calc, but none of them seem to adjust the soap properties. I really would like to see it at least show me an updated hardness score, but ideally all of the properties. I am sure that bubbly, conditioning, etc. Either go up or down when adding vinegar. If nothing else, all of the other saponifiables are being reduced/diluted.

Maybe the easiest fix would be to add acetic acid to the list of oils, just like stearic. I could calculate 5% (or whatever percentage of acidity) of the vinegar weight and just enter that along with my oils.


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## cmzaha (Mar 11, 2020)

David James said:


> None of the calculators appear to make the use of vinegar 100% predictable. SMF at least adjusts the lye calc, but none of them seem to adjust the soap properties. I really would like to see it at least show me an updated hardness score, but ideally all of the properties. I am sure that bubbly, conditioning, etc. Either go up or down when adding vinegar. If nothing else, all of the other saponifiables are being reduced/diluted.
> 
> Maybe the easiest fix would be to add acetic acid to the list of oils, just like stearic. I could calculate 5% (or whatever percentage of acidity) of the vinegar weight and just enter that along with my oils.


I really think that would make things more complicated. Besides the properties are not all that perfect, to begin with. soap with vinegar and you will see what it does or does not do.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 12, 2020)

_"...none of them seem to adjust the soap properties..."_

That's because the "scores" for hardness and such are calculated ONLY based on the fatty acids in the recipe. Hardness = palmitic + stearic + myristic + lauric acids. What's the fatty acid content in vinegar?

Many other commonly used additives, including table salt, citric acid, sodium lactate, beer, honey and other sugars, various starches, food purees, etc., etc., can and do affect the hardness and other qualities of soap.

These additives often inter-react, sometimes in unpredictable ways. I cannot fathom how someone is supposed to design a calc that can predict the effects of additives, including vinegar. For example, a soap maker in one recent thread was experiencing serious problems and finally traced it back to using both vinegar and citric acid in her soap. How is a calc designer supposed to predict that kind of interaction???

Frankly, we're lucky to have a calc designer who was willing to include the calculations needed so people can include acids like vinegar and citric acid without having to do the math by hand to calculate the extra alkali required for the acid-base neutralization. That's something no other calc (that I know of, anyway) is doing, and I think this is a huge step forward.

I don't believe there is a mathematical model available for calculating the change in hardness due to vinegar. If a model doesn't exist, I can't remotely see why a calc designer needs to be responsible for the research necessary to develop one. If you do know how to calculate the change in hardness due to vinegar, however, be sure and present it to the SMF management.

_"...all of the other saponifiables are being reduced/diluted.... _

The acetic acid in vinegar is an organic acid, but it's not a fatty acid. Only fats and fatty acids saponify. 

Vinegar doesn't dilute or reduce the fats in the recipe any more than plain water dilutes or reduces the fats. The weight of pure soap made in any batch of soap is equal to the fat/fatty acid weight plus the lye weight required to saponify the fats and fatty acids. Water-based liquids, including vinegar, are in addition to the pure soap made.

_"...Maybe the easiest fix would be to add acetic acid to the list of oils, just like stearic...."_

I suppose one could pretend as if vinegar is a fat and put it in the list of fats. Problem is many people will then treat vinegar as if it really is an ingredient that results in soap and make some major mistakes in formulating recipes.

The consumption of NaOH by vinegar is being handled correctly by the SMF calc as it is written. We don't need to pretend as if vinegar is a fat. The essential problem right now is the calc isn't doing the calculations correctly to account for the water in the vinegar.


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## omniverse99 (Mar 31, 2020)

Kcryss said:


> The math is actually pretty easy if you have a spreadsheet to do it for you. I'm still using the calculator for the actual lye/liquid, but I write both down before adding CA/vinegar. Then, I add one at a time.
> I add the CA, get the grams needed  (I use 1.5% ppo). Then I do the math  =CA grams*6.24/10. So if I need 13.5 grams of CA, the calculation would be 13.5*6.24/10 = 8.42, then I add the 8.42 to whatever the calculator originally calculated for the lye.
> Same with vinegar, although the lye calculation there is fine, so it's just a matter of increasing the original liquid by 5g for the 100g of vinegar (that's all I use for a 900g batch of soap).
> For the liquid, I am just going to use the original stated quantity +5g.
> ...


Hello how did it turn out? How did it feel on the skin?


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## Kcryss (Apr 1, 2020)

omniverse99 said:


> Hello how did it turn out? How did it feel on the skin?


I have learned that, at least for me, I cannot use CA or vinegar without it causing longer cook times. I honestly have no idea why, but that's what happens.  
From a feel perspective, the bars are harder with the vinegar, so I actually decided I don't like that a whole lot. Beyond that I don't really notice much difference. 
I stopped using Aloe, CA, Vinegar, and Salt in the lye water. Now, I just use water and sodium gluconate. I do still add a little aloe, yogurt and sugar after the cook. The bars now seem a tab bit softer which I like, they lather well and so far I haven't had any issues.


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## AliOop (Jun 15, 2020)

@cmzaha You commented earlier on this thread that the vinegar adjustment didn't work for you on SM Friend. I noted that it did work for me.

Well, I just tried it with the master-batched lye option, and it did NOT work. There was no liquid adjustment or lye adjustment for the vinegar at all.

So I was wondering if that was the issue, that perhaps you were using masterbatched lye, and previously I was not, and that's why our results differed? I mean, it should work either way, but at least we would both know we aren't crazy (about that, anyway).


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## cmzaha (Jun 15, 2020)

AliOop said:


> @cmzaha You commented earlier on this thread that the vinegar adjustment didn't work for you on SM Friend. I noted that it did work for me.
> 
> Well, I just tried it with the master-batched lye option, and it did NOT work. There was no liquid adjustment or lye adjustment for the vinegar at all.
> 
> So I was wondering if that was the issue, that perhaps you were using masterbatched lye, and previously I was not, and that's why our results differed? I mean, it should work either way, but at least we would both know we aren't crazy (about that, anyway).


I very well may have been using the masterbatched lye since that is what I usually use. It is really nice to know that maybe I am not crazy, and that is why once it did work. Thank you for the info.


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## AliOop (Jun 15, 2020)

I was just trying to decide whether to start master-batching my lye. But since I use vinegar in the majority of my soaps, and since it doesn't work in SM Friend, I am reconsidering. I am great with math concepts but terrible with details... I make so many silly math mistakes that I don't trust myself to do the figuring. So I'll probably stick with making the lye as I go. Sigh.


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## Soaps_and_more (Jun 15, 2020)

I am just reading slowly through this thread, but I have to shout out to you all: YOU ARE ALL SO AWESOME!!!

Thank you for being so curious and doing these things! I adore you all.

Sorry I can be a bit excited when it comes to soap making, hahaha. But isnt this the best hobby!! Always something to learn and to improve!


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## smengot0 (Jun 16, 2020)

Hello wonderful soap makers!
Does your soap batter trace faster when you replace water with vinegar? I have had this issue in the past. Maybe it's just me?
Thanks


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## AliOop (Jun 16, 2020)

I haven’t seen that, but I tend to use slow-tracing blends so it may have, but I would not have noticed if it did.

I do have to add the lye more slowly so the reaction with the vinegar doesn’t overflow. And it does make for hotter lye liquid, for sure - esp with added sugar.


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## cmzaha (Jun 16, 2020)

No, it does not cause my soap to trace faster and I use vinegar in all my soap batches, at least not in my experience.


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