# More on Preservatives



## melstan775 (Jan 20, 2013)

I have read about different common preservatives - Optiphen, Phenonip, Germall, etc.  Guess what? I'm confused!  They all have ranges and temperatures and ideal usage suggestions, and only Optiphen products are paraben-free.  Which preservatives do you use, and why? Anyone have any trouble with Optiphen products when used with products over a pH 7?


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## Relle (Jan 21, 2013)

http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/lotion/talk-it-out-tuesday-preservatives/


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## melstan775 (Jan 21, 2013)

I read that one Relle.  I guess what I am confused about is how commercial companies can make paraben-free products if paraben-free preservatives are not strong enough to withstand any given number of variables. Yet many people are all about "no parabens" right now. I guess what I am asking is how others have decided which preservatives to use in their own products.


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## paillo (Jan 21, 2013)

I avoid parabens and have been using Neodefend for well over a year with good results. No parabens, formaldehyde or GMOs. Locally I mostly sell to natural foods stores where my customers like to avoid these. Additionally, it's EcoCert certified for organic products. I've also been wanting to try Aspen bark extract http://www.lotioncrafter.com/phytocide-aspen-bark-extract.html but think I might use something else in addition. Leucidal liquid is another one I've used with success. http://www.lotioncrafter.com/leucidal-liquid.html, but I feel most comfortable with the Neodefend http://www.lotioncrafter.com/neodefend.html

Don't mean to sound like an advertisement for Lotioncrafter -- it's just that their descriptions and caveats are really well spelled-out.


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## walkinwounded (Jan 26, 2013)

I use Germall Plus, why? well for many reasons.

It gives products a great shelf life, I forget exactly but it would be easy to find from the supplier or producer, many preservatives are broad spectrum/anit fungal/anti bactericide, but many do not last as long, which Germal Plus is a broad spectrum as well.

It is Paraben free!!! This is not just a new hype or fad, it is fact that Parabens are very very bad. Orgin toxicity, etc etc. I do not use anything with Parabens from all the things I understand about Parabens, there is oodles of info on Parabens.

Many "natural" preservatives are still considered unhealthy or toxic. Mercury is natural, but bad! Arsenic is considered natural but deadly! Cyanide is a natural, but bad, you get the idea.

Some preservatives can be irritating to skin tissue, like potassium sorbate which has a high irritation rate, and is not broad spectrumand very PH sensitive.

Some preservatives have consequences like PH drift, discolouration etc etc. What good is a naturally preserved lotion that has turned to cottage cheese because of destabalization.

Germall Plus is a formaldehyde donor, which means it provides an element needed to produce formaldehyde which acts as a preservative. This said, our body's produce formaldehyde everyday which we excreate through urine. Used appropriatly it posses little risk. Yes it is toxic in high doses, but our systems can easily deal with the amounts in lotions, I would be more worried about eating McDonalds, sorry to the McD lovers.

I am interested in switching to a more "healthier", "natural" preservative myself, I just have not figured one out yet, my idea so far is to mix Leucidal, aspen bark extract, and elderbarry extract togehter to get a "supper" natural preservative. 

The most important thing I can say on the matter! I have only tried Germall Plus, and Opthiphen Plus. My choice and understanding is from what I have gathered throughout my searches. I'm just sharing my thoughts on the matter, no facts. Its all a matter of personal preferences.


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## melstan775 (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks paillo and walkinwounded. I just saw your responses.  I'm going to look up some more stuff, I didn't know lotioncrafter offered preservatives, so im going to check those links. Thanks!


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## melstan775 (Jan 27, 2013)

Oh dear paillo, you had to show me this web site didn't you...... It has everything you might need to add to stuff to stabilize, mix up, standardize, thicken, ph balance, preserve, and anti-age.


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## Lindy (Jan 27, 2013)

I use the powdered form of Germall Plus and love it.  I am surprised though that Whole Foods won't accept any products with it in it though.  Mind you they don't allow anything with tallow either (to protect the vegan customers)... don't get me started  on that subject   :evil:


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## melstan775 (Jan 27, 2013)

Lindy said:


> I use the powdered form of Germall Plus and love it.  I am surprised though that Whole Foods won't accept any products with it in it though.  Mind you they don't allow anything with tallow either (to protect the vegan customers)... don't get me started  on that subject   :evil:




Urea is a formaldehyde releaser. So if a lotion is exposed to heat and melts, and someone opens it, they get a face full of formaldehyde gas. Even in tiny amounts, that can be very toxic.

I was thinking I might like to try Optiphen, but I'm not sure it's strong enough for most applications.  It seems "small" applications, like lip balms like it best. I make a sugar scrub with plain sugar and cuticle oils. I need something that will ward off bacterial growth and won't send people screaming about what's in the preservative.


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## Lindy (Jan 28, 2013)

Uhmmm at 0.1% I somehow doubt there is enough formaldehyde to give even a mouse a face-full.  Lip balms do not require preservatives and lotions don't melt.


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## melstan775 (Jan 28, 2013)

Lindy said:


> Uhmmm at 0.1% I somehow doubt there is enough formaldehyde to give even a mouse a face-full.  Lip balms do not require preservatives and lotions don't melt.



Lotions melt. I've seem them. In high temperature areas, they do thin, a lot, and even separate, hence the "melting."  Probably not in a store, but it could happen, say in your purse.  

I like how you said, "give a mouse a face full." It's cute, and I will remember it, (and probbaly use it as some point in the future!)   but I stand that formaldehyde is dangerous, even in small amounts.


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## Lindy (Jan 28, 2013)

mestan775 in 4 years I've never had a lotion "melt" or separate, even in high heat.  I've had creams melt from high temps but I challenge test my lotions by putting them in hot windows, leaving them in cars in the summer, leaving them in the car in the winter and some other really, really mean things to see how they're going to hold up.  If they can't handle that treatment I won't sell them because it means I didn't formulate it right.

As for formaldehyde, you have to choose what is right for you.  There is a whole conversation we could have about it, but I'm not here to change your mind.  You can also look at Geoguard Ultra - it is ECOCERT and considered natural.


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## foresthome (Sep 10, 2016)

I think Germall is a non paraben but has Diazolidinyl Urea, which was recently listed as may be carcinogenic. Many over the counter lotions contain one of these. After the warning on Diazolidinyl Urea I have changed from Germsall Plus to Neodefend. It has worked well in my lotions, but have had trouble with mold in creams and had to toss a bunch. The last 2 batches I doubled the amount of preservative and so far no problem.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 10, 2016)

Please give a reputable source regarding the carcinogenicity. I would like to become better informed.


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## HappyGoNaturally (Sep 10, 2016)

melstan775 said:


> I have read about different common preservatives - Optiphen, Phenonip, Germall, etc.  Guess what? I'm confused!  They all have ranges and temperatures and ideal usage suggestions, and only Optiphen products are paraben-free.  Which preservatives do you use, and why? Anyone have any trouble with Optiphen products when used with products over a pH 7?



The only skin product I make regularly that requires a preservative is cream -- for that, I have been using a product called VegeCide (it's a natural preservative).  I have some small amounts of creams that I've set aside for time testing, one of them is going over a year now and it hasn't molded, still looks/smells the same; but, other recipes may not work as well with this.  One thing it does do when using it -- it makes a cream a bit more fluid, not a bad thing, just something to note.


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## DeeAnna (Sep 10, 2016)

The lack of visible fungal growth (mold) doesn't prove anything, really. A product can have a sky high bacteria count, for example, and still look and smell fine.


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## HappyGoNaturally (Sep 10, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> The lack of visible fungal growth (mold) doesn't prove anything, really. A product can have a sky high bacteria count, for example, and still look and smell fine.



Although my post wasn't to prove anything, I do believe that VegeCide can work in some creams -- as for how long, under what conditions, I do not know; but I can't say it doesn't prevent mold in the creams I've made with it.  

I guess if it started to smell like flowers or puppy feet, I could say that it possessed one of these bacteria ...

_Source of below: http://waag.org/en/blog/dreaming-microbial-perfume_

Some of the bacteria that are known for recognizable smells: 


_Pseudomonas aeruginosa_ smells like flowers.
_Streptococcus milleri_ smells like browned butter.
_Proteus bacteria_, known for their “sweet, corn tortilla smell”, also responsible for the popcorn scent of the dog’s feet.
Soil bacteria: _Actinomycetes_ are behind that rich,  wet-earth smell that comes after a rain. Vetiver root bacteria enhance  aroma of Vetiver oil. It is used in men's colognes.

See full article if curious ... I thought that was interesting!


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## foresthome (Sep 12, 2016)

*diazolidinyl urea and parabens*

http://www.safecosmetics.org/get-the-facts/chemicals-of-concern/formaldehyde/

http://www.breastcancerfund.org/clear-science/radiation-chemicals-and-breast-cancer/parabens.html

I just ordered Optiphen Plus to try for the first time.


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## HappyGoNaturally (Sep 13, 2016)

When I look up Optiphen Plus, I see that it's composed of  Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, and Sorbic Acid, yet I can't find the %'s of each of these ingredients.  I see that it recommends a 0.75 - 1.5% usage.  So, I would say that if marketing a cream with this product if used at 1.5%, that a short warning on the label may be a good idea based on notes regarding allergy or eczema unless the %'s of the ingredients of it are known.  _(Also, it should be used with caution around infants.)
_
_"Eczema is also a common allergic reaction to skin exposure of products  containing one percent or more phenoxyethanol. Reactions only occur in  the area of application and eczema subsides after avoidance of the  product causing irritation."
http://www.safecosmetics.org/get-the-facts/chemicals-of-concern/phenoxyethanol/
_


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