# Shampoo bars



## Appalasia (Jul 16, 2019)

I am seeing a lof shampp bars recipes using lye. Does anyone use lye in their bars for shampoo? Pros vs cons? Also, does everyone like the shampoo bars? I have never tried them but was thinking of making them. I heard that the texture is much different than regular shampoo? Thanx for any replies!!!!


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## Dawni (Jul 17, 2019)

Oooh this topic.... 

If you search enough in this forum you'll find that many did try shampooing with lye based shampoo bars and after an extended period learned that lye+hair is a big no no.

Someone here had to shave her hair off.... 

I have an uncle who uses whatever his body soap is on his hair. His advantage is, his hair is very short to begin with and even if he had to shave it he won't mind lol. I think it's us gals with longer hair who will have problems.

When I did try a lye based shampoo bar my scalp was awesome but my hair wasn't. 

The consensus is, you're better off with a syndet shampoo bar, if you don't want liquid ones.. In my case, hair is lovely, scalp is not liking it. 

I've been testing syndets now for close to two years and still can't get a balance of good scalp and hair. I'm very tempted to attempt making some, if not for the cost.


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## Rahmi (Jul 17, 2019)

Wow, and I've been shampooing with my body bars too  I'm gonna read up more on his. 

I'm my case so far I haven't had any problems so far. I love how clean my scalp and hair feels after shampooing. The best shampoo bar  for me was the 20% sf coconut oil bar. I noticed a difference then. 

 But I suppose I'm really low maintenance. When does the problem start to appear? After months? Weeks?


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## Obsidian (Jul 17, 2019)

@Rahmi in my case, it took about two years before I saw severe breakage.
Some people do just fine with lye soap on hair, most do not. 
It should also work if you have short hair since the hair will be cut away before the damage can build up.


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## Dahila (Jul 17, 2019)

Obsidian said:


> @Rahmi in my case, it took about two years before I saw severe breakage.
> Some people do just fine with lye soap on hair, most do not.
> It should also work if you have short hair since the hair will be cut away before the damage can build up.


I had a short hair and it took not long time to make my hair straw like .  I made my first syndet it was like 5 years ago and I will never go back to commercial shampoos or Liquid shampoo


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## Lankan (Jul 17, 2019)

An Instagram handle, who does some good soap making, recently launched two shampoo bars, which are claimed to be not soaps and sulfate free (SLS,SLES & ALS). But they have not disclosed the surfactant they are using, but claiming to be mild one.


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## Dahila (Jul 17, 2019)

I believe our syndets (people here on forums) are also sulfate free,  There is a lot of options to use instead of sls


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## Lankan (Jul 18, 2019)

Dahila said:


> I believe our syndets (people here on forums) are also sulfate free,  There is a lot of options to use instead of sls



Every personal care product including baby care products sold here contains one of those three sulfates and form enhancers, that's one of the reason I got interested in soap-making. I'm trying to find a lye  sulfate free shampoo bar recipe that I could make and possibly use on my own.


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## Dawni (Jul 18, 2019)

Lankan said:


> Every personal care product including baby care products sold here contains one of those three sulfates and form enhancers, that's one of the reason I got interested in soap-making. I'm trying to find a lye  sulfate free shampoo bar recipe that I could make and possibly use on my own.


I've read around and most sulfate free bars I've seen have sci and/or slsa..


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## Vaibhav Jain (Jul 18, 2019)

Now a these days the question "whether a product is sulfate free or not" is no more relevant rather the right question is "whether the product is free of synthetic surfactants or not" and if it contain surfactant(s) "whether those are mild" and "what's their names".


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 18, 2019)

Hi!  I've made shampoo bars with lye, and found them to be very gentle.  I did use citric acid to bring the PH closer to neutral (about 7.45 or 8), as well as apple cider vinegar to close the hair cuticle.  Many people use an apple cider vinegar rinse to close the hair cuticle, making the hair smooth and shiny.  I'm just curious....since there would be no lye left over in a shampoo bar (unless something went wrong with the calculations), what is it that is causing the hair damage?  I've never tried a syndet bar, so I can't compare what it would feel like.  Has anyone tried the ACV rinse after using a "lye based" shampoo bar?  Would love to know it that helps the problem. A very interesting thread, to be sure!

oops, I forgot to mention the "texture" of the shampoo bar, as requested by 'Appalasia".  The bars I've made do lather up very well, but it is a different sort of lather.  Some commercial shampoos have an abundance of creamy and/or fluffy bubbles.  The bars I make have good lather, but more like the bubbles you'd get from a shower gel.  It's a little hard to describe.  I find it covers my hair well...meaning it lathers all over, not just in a few spots.  And it rinses out easily.  I don't use the ACV rinse, as I put the ACV in the bar itself.  Hope this helps.  (ACV rinse is made with a tablespoon of ACV, a cup or more of water and several drops of an essential oil to mask the smell.   There are other ways to mix it up, but that's a basic ACV recipe.)


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## Dahila (Jul 18, 2019)

Liesel Atwood said:


> Hi!  I've made shampoo bars with lye, and found them to be very gentle.  I did use citric acid to bring the PH closer to neutral (about 7.45 or 8), as well as apple cider vinegar to close the hair cuticle.  Many people use an apple cider vinegar rinse to close the hair cuticle, making the hair smooth and shiny.  I'm just curious....since there would be no lye left over in a shampoo bar (unless something went wrong with the calculations), what is it that is causing the hair damage?  I've never tried a syndet bar, so I can't compare what it would feel like.  Has anyone tried the ACV rinse after using a "lye based" shampoo bar?  Would love to know it that helps the problem. A very interesting thread, to be sure!


With all due respect no one can bring soap to 7 ph and still have soap


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## cmzaha (Jul 18, 2019)

The problem is not the fact that lye no longer remains in the soap, it is the ph of soap itself that is hard on the hair. "Soap" is soap, not shampoo. Some of the cheapest shampoos on the market will be better than using soap on your hair. Remember you cannot fix dead, so when the hair becomes damaged it has to be cut to correct the problem. 

Under doctors' orders, I was to use Tide on a customer's hair, years ago, for her severe psoriasis. While the Tide did help clear her scalp it was not nice to her hair. By choice, she kept her hair very short so the damage would be cut off every 2 weeks.


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 18, 2019)

I just meant that I tried to bring the PH closer to neutral.....the numbers I listed were an example of what neutral is. (to be specific, neutral is 7.35 to 7.45)The PH I actually achieved was about an 8.5, but ph strips aren't always consistently reliable.  However, I don't add the citric acid to the lye water, because, as you mentioned, the batch would fail.  I also forgot to add that I make these bars using HP, rather than CP.  The citric acid was added after  the cook.  I've been experimenting.   They turned out really well.


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 18, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> The problem is not the fact that lye no longer remains in the soap, it is the ph of soap itself that is hard on the hair. "Soap" is soap, not shampoo. Some of the cheapest shampoos on the market will be better than using soap on your hair. Remember you cannot fix dead, so when the hair becomes damaged it has to be cut to correct the problem.
> 
> Under doctors' orders, I was to use Tide on a customer's hair, years ago, for her severe psoriasis. While the Tide did help clear her scalp it was not nice to her hair. By choice, she kept her hair very short so the damage would be cut off every 2 weeks.


    Hi! 
   Perhaps I have my terminology wrong.  How do we define "soap" as compared to "shampoo"?  Is it based on the PH levels?  The "shampoo" bars I made have a ph of about 8.5.  Would that be considered 'soap' or 'shampoo'?  I'm a nurse, not a hair dresser so I don't consider myself an expert on hair.  From my research, I've learned that our hair is already dead, but it is also a reflection of what we eat and drink, the medications we take and what we put on it.  Would it be accurate to say that damaged hair could come from any number of factors?  Could it also, then, be repaired by changing those factors?  I realize that all shampoos are not equal.  I have noticed, though, that since I've been using the shampoo bars for the past two months, my problem hair (multiple medications causing falling hair and loss of curl) is getting thicker, fluffier and shinier.  I hope, if I can overcome my health problems, perhaps I'll even get my curls back.    I guess what I really want to know is, what defines a shampoo?  Thanks for any feedback.  I appreciate the opportunity to learn something new.


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## Dahila (Jul 18, 2019)

Liessel it is not possible to have soap bar at 8.5 ph,  How did you check ph?  Have you made a solution with water?  1 g of soap 45 g of water, then when dissolved you check Ph with Ph meter, not strips they are usually off a lot.   Only LS can have ph from 9 to up .  Bar soap does not matter what you use (oils) will be from at least 9.5 to 12.
The hair is thicker (I had been there too) cause of residue the soap leave on hair 
Soap is not shampoo, not matter how you call it,  Our hair needs , the best is 4.5 to5.5 ph. I keep my shampoos at 4.5 I uploaded the scale so you get better idea 
Neutral is 7 ph


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 18, 2019)

Hi Dahila!  Thanks for your response, and the attached ph scale.  I did use ph strips to check...I knew they could be "off" a little, but I didn't realize it could vary that much. I used distilled water to create a lather, and then dipped the strip in it.  I can try making a solution, but if the strips are off that much, I probably won't bother.   It's too bad there are no specific instructions with the package on the proper usage.   Just to be clear...LS is liquid soap?


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## cmzaha (Jul 18, 2019)

Shampoo is made with surfactants, not lye soap. Even if you were to get a bar of soap down to 8.5 ph, it would still be too high to use on the hair. Yes, LS is liquid soap. As Dahila mentions above no matter what you call a lye-based Bar it is Soap and soap is not good for hair.


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 18, 2019)

Sorry to have so many questions, but I feel like I am still missing something.  I understand what you're saying about soap and shampoo.   What seems to be confusing me is this; what exactly is it about lye soap, or soap in general that is damaging to the hair,  if it could be brought to a low enough ph? Is it only a matter of the ph being too high, or are there other factors. I have been under the impression that surfactants are harmful chemicals, while soap contains natural ingredients.  It seems strange to me that natural (saponified) oils would be harmful to the hair.   I've been a soaper for a long time, but shampoo is relatively new to me. Thanks again, cmzaha and Dahila, and anyone else who wishes to reply.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 18, 2019)

_"...what exactly is it about lye soap, or soap in general that is damaging to the hair, if it could be brought to a low enough ph?..."_

"Soap in general" is the same thing as "lye soap". In discussions like this, some of us will say "lye based soap" or "lye soap" to avoid confusion, because many people use the word "soap" as a catch-all term for any kind of cleanser ranging from lye-based soap to not-soap cleansers.

Problem is that soap made with fats or fatty acids plus an alkali (KOH, NaOH, etc.) simply cannot be brought down to a pH low enough to be good for hair and still remain as soap. Soap decomposes as acids are added. This decomposition happens whether the acids are added up front or added later.

Alkaline pH causes the cuticle on the hair shaft to open, which makes it easier to damage the hair (split ends!) Due to the raised cuticle, the hair also feels rougher (some people think this means the hair has "more body") and the hair often appears less shiny.

Just because an ingredient like soap contains "natural" ingredients does not mean it is the best cleanser for every purpose nor does it mean the soap can't cause harm.

I love to use my home made soap on my skin. But I make a syndet based cleanser for washing my hair -- I learned this lesson the hard way.


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 18, 2019)

Yes, now I see what you mean about being unable to get the ph low enough, even by adding citric acid etc.  I also agree with your POV about not all soaps being the same, or good for all purposes. (I paraphrased your comment.)  I need to do more research on syndet bars, because I don't know enough about their ingredients, especially surfactants.  
I'm sorry to learn that you've had troubles with your hair because of soap.  I can certainly identify with hair troubles....I hope the syndet cleanser has helped. Thanks for your kind replies and answers to my questions.  Many thanks to everyone who helped me straighten out the chemistry in my head.


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## Soapymumma (Jul 18, 2019)

There are some great responses here. I’d like to add, I feel a little qualified (previous medical scientist & recent hairdresser) been making shampoo (liquid for 20+ yrs, bars for 6 & soap for 20+ and still feeling a beginner with the latter). However with shampoo, the pH needs to be 4.5-5.5 so shampoo needs to be the same to maintain healthy hair, scalp and sebum. Disrupting this with more acid or alkaline will cause problems for the majority at some time - even allowing an environment for (naked to the eye) mites, fungus and bacteria to live on the scalp causing damage to scalp, hair, hair loss & health. This can take many years or just a few months. 

Shampoo has a combination of cleansing, & conditioning agents at the very minimum. Regardless of liquid or bar they need these for balance. This isn’t possible in soap due to high pH. 

Some people can use soap and acv rinse but not most. It seems those that can use soap as shampoo are a very small percentage of people (my guess is short hair frequently cut so damage is never noticed or the damage hasn’t caught up yet. It can take some years. Then all of a sudden it’s disastrous.  

I see absolutely no way of successfully using soap on hair. Syndet bars are the only way of making a solid shampoo bar. There are great resources out there to get started & create a wonderfully balanced shampoo bar for healthy, hair, scalp and sebum levels.


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## Dahila (Jul 18, 2019)

When you bring soap that low ph it is not soap it will separate the fatty acids,  You will end up with soft glob ,  Syndat bars are ph friendly shampoos, actually you could say it is a shampoo without water added.  If you want to learn about it , the best option would be to follow swiftcraftymonkey,  Susan has a blog and for as little as one dollar you can learn all about hair, and body care.  Now she carries a series about ph friendly products.  Highly recommend her.  You can find her on fb too. and follow the link to blog.  She is much easier for beginners.  Making skincare is for advanced diyers


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 18, 2019)

Thank you, Dahila, for this information.  I will look for Susan's blog.  Actually, I'm not new to soaping or skin care.  It's been about 25 years since I began my soaping journey.  I am new to shampoo, though, as well as the world of PH testing.  I learned by doing, reading and experimenting.  Thank goodness for the soap calculators!  I enjoy formulating my own recipes and trying out others recipes.  Making shampoo has been fun, even though there are two distinct groups of thought.  Thankfully, this group has helped me understand some of the differences between the soap "camp" and syndet "camp".  Until a month ago, I didn't need to test for PH.  I knew that if i used a soap calculator and followed the recipe precisely, one way or another soap would be the result.  It was easy to tell if the soap was "good soap" or lye heavy.  Then I saw soapers on youtube, ph testing once or maybe even twice in a soap batch, and i thought I should do that as well.  But I've found PH strips to be a bit of a waste!  It can be a novel thing, to know approx. what the ph of my soap is, but they don't tell me anything i didn't already know, and that was, safe or not safe.  Good soap or Not Good soap.  Now my task is to research shampoo bars, and syndet bars, and figure out where I stand.  There are many things to consider, and I appreciate all the voices I've heard and the info I've learned here.  I am thankful to everyone who has contributed to my shampoo journey!  

Hi SoapyMumma!
Thank you for your response to my questions!  As with the other lovely ladies who have responded, you are obviously very educated in the soaping arena.  I have learned something new and interesting from everyone!  I would like to ask....what do you use in your liquid shampoo?  The only liquid shampoo I have made is potassium hydroxide based.  Do you use the same cleansers and conditioners that you would use in a solid syndet bar?  This will be an interesting and fun journey for me....shampoo is a little different.  I think I still prefer soapmaking, but it will be very useful to know how to make shampoo that will satisfy both the "no soap" and the lye based shampoo bar groups.  Lots of research ahead for me, but I like that!  Nursing has taught me that learning is a lifelong journey....as life is a journey in learning!  I must apologise to the person who first started this thread.  It was not my intention to hijack your post.  Guess my questions got the better of me.  I hope we're all good.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 18, 2019)

Hi Liesel! Take heart, you are not alone. Many soapers make and use lye-based shampoo bars and lye-based liquid shampoo. Myself included. It's important to rinse thoroughly after shampooing, with increasingly cool water until it's as cold as you can stand it. Follow up with a vinegar rinse (1 tablespoon apple cider vinegar in 8 oz water) to restore the acid mantle of the scalp.

When I first tried a shampoo bar in 2004 it took about a year for my hair to get used to it. I even went back to OTC shampoo a few times during that year. This is typical of other soapers' experience as well. Once my hair adjusted, I've used whatever bar that we happened to be test driving in the shower without any negative effects. I now make and use my own Liquid Shampoo and just love the results. I don't even need conditioner.

Read more about the benefits of Shampoo Bars on the Chagrin Valley Site. Links:

Why Use A Natural Shampoo Bar?
https://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/blog/posts/why-use-a-natural-shampoo-bar/

Everything About Shampoo Bars
https://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/blog/posts/everything-about-shampoo-bars/

Shampoo Bar Residue
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/shampoo-bar-residue.47769/

HERBAL RINSES FOR SHAMPOO BARS
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/herbal-rinses-for-shampoo-bars.63398/

This is a good one too:
https://jrliggett.com/faq#best-results


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## DeeAnna (Jul 18, 2019)

Obviously, everyone's opinions and experiences on this point will vary. My observation is the "soap as shampoo" advocates, like Zany, seem to be in the minority compared to the "syndet as shampoo" advocates. But you have to make up your own mind on what's best for you.


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## Dahila (Jul 19, 2019)

Exactly, only few people can use soap on their hair,  and what is most important they always had good hair,


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## earlene (Jul 19, 2019)

I believe that it is not only the length of hair that matters, but the type of hair.  My hair was blonde, very fine, pale as could be and super soft.   Over the years, my hair changed, first to wiry and grey and now most of what I can see is white and the texture of my white hair is not at all the texture it was when blonde, nor when it was grey.  As far as I can tell, different hair types may require different types of shampoos, or at least that's what the industry than sells shampoos suggests, so different products may cause different results in different hair types.

Now, as far as the skin or scalp itself, although many people react differently to different soap recipes, lye soap is still a strong alkali and the scalp generally doesn't respond well to strong alkalis I think.  But of course, reports from all kinds of people varies, so perhaps I am wrong on that count.

Personally, my very long (over 3 feet in length as reminded by my granddaughter just yesterday) hair that I had for many years, turned to looking and feeling like straw within a month or two of using mild and quite lovely soap I had made and love for my skin.  It was an adapted shampoo bar recipe and a very nice bar of soap.  But as I continued to use it, the straw-like nature of my hair put me off shampoo bars at least while my hair was long.  It's very short now, but I have not been tempted at all to try again.  Not sure I will in the future, either.  Even with short hair, I would not like the straw-like look or feel that I experienced with lye hair soap.   Haircuts notwithstanding, the straw look may be fine for scarecrows but not for me.


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## PCT (Jul 19, 2019)

Liesel Atwood said:


> Hi!  I've made shampoo bars with lye, and found them to be very gentle.  I did use citric acid to bring the PH closer to neutral (about 7.45 or 8), as well as apple cider vinegar to close the hair cuticle.  Many people use an apple cider vinegar rinse to close the hair cuticle, making the hair smooth and shiny.  I'm just curious....since there would be no lye left over in a shampoo bar (unless something went wrong with the calculations), what is it that is causing the hair damage?  I've never tried a syndet bar, so I can't compare what it would feel like.  Has anyone tried the ACV rinse after using a "lye based" shampoo bar?  Would love to know it that helps the problem. A very interesting thread, to be sure!



Hello new here. I have short black hair, but been using home made shampoo bar , in fact any and every home made bar soap to wash my hair, still OK , black silky and shiny, maybe genes ....LOL but I do spray ACV  after washing , and leave it on , and dump some home made hair wax just to tone the flyaways.


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 19, 2019)

Hi Zany-in-CO !  Thanks for your kind words.  And also for the links.  I'm sure I will find lots of useful info!  The bars I make  are infused with about 5 different herbs known for strengthening hair and promoting hair growth.  Hopefully that will help some.  I put ACV in the bar, hoping that would close the hair cuticle so I wouldn't have to rinse with it (aversion to smell!)  I haven't tried the cold water for rinsing so I'll be sure to give that a try as well.  Thanks again!


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## DeeAnna (Jul 19, 2019)

"...I put ACV in the bar, hoping that would close the hair cuticle so I wouldn't have to rinse with it (aversion to smell!)..."

Vinegar (an acid) added to the soap batter consumes lye (a base) and creates sodium acetate (a salt). Washing with a soap that contains sodium acetate is not the same as rinsing with an acidic solution after washing.

If you don't like the smell of vinegar, use a citric acid solution instead. Just a small bit of citric acid powder per quart/liter of water is all you need.


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## Liesel Atwood (Jul 19, 2019)

Hey there, new member from New Zealand!  It's interesting that you mention the homemade hair wax....I just made a test "conditioner" bar, but it is more like hair wax.  I think the recipe I found on pinterest had too much bees wax for my hair type.  I'm enjoying the jojoba oil though! 

Hey DeeAnna! Thanks so much for that advice!  I'll give it a try.  When I rinse my hair as normal....cool water, not hot...the shampoo bar rinses out leaving my hair squeaky clean.  Just curious....it the "squeak" indicative of a closed hair cuticle, or is it simply because of our very acidic water.  (We have extremely acidic water here at my house.  We only use it for bathing, laundry and dishes. )  Maybe this is one of the reasons the shampoo bars work well on my hair?


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## DeeAnna (Jul 19, 2019)

Maybe you're right, Liesel. I really don't know.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 19, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> But you have to make up your own mind on what's best for you.


Exactly. Thank you for saying that, DeeAnna. I appreciate it. 


Dahila said:


> Exactly, only few people can use soap on their hair,  and what is most important they always had good hair,


Um, with all due respect, Dahila, in my experience, "they always have good hair" isn't a factor. For one thing, I don't have "good hair". I wish I did. My hair is thin, fine, limp. With our common (Polish) ancestry -- I'm 99.6% "Eastern European" according to Ancestry dot com --  I expect your hair isn't that much different from mine.

I used to perm & bleach my hair until I turned 45 when my daughter said, _"Mom, why don't you stop frying your hair,  grow it out and let your natural beauty show." _LOL  So I did. Now I have "virgin" hair, but it's still thin and fine but also soft & shiny -- thanks to a couple drops of Argan Oil rubbed between my palms and then smoothed on the hair to prevent flyaways.

Also, with a hubby, 5 stepchildren, 2 kiddos of my own, the variety of hair is extensive.   I've never heard a complaint. Quite the opposite. But I do stress "rinsing with increasingly cool water until it's as cold as you can stand it (think 'Viking').

My two are Polish and Lebanese -- blue-eyed blonds with their father's olive skin. My step-kids are a mix of British, Welsh, Irish, European. One stepson, Jimmy, is 3% Neanderthal! LOL I used to give them haircuts when they were young. His hair was so thick it would slide off the scissors-- almost impossible to cut -- but very nice hair in the long run. My son, Peter, had thick blond hair through his teens and well into adulthood. Gorgeous! The rest were pretty much blessed with good, if not great hair.

As I've mentioned before, my hubby's hair benefited from using my "Palm Olive" bar in the shower. He followed the cool-water rinse routine, never even tried an acid rinse, and his fine, thin white hair was so pretty & shiny, no yellow at all, every time he went out the door.

I should say, my mentors in the early days of learning to make soap were kind and generous individuals who shared their experience and encouraged me and supported me in my journey. They are largely responsible for what success I have achieved in using soap as shampoo. For them, I am most grateful. 

I am also grateful for the SMF "Powers-that-be" for allowing me to share what I know, based on my experience. It wasn't that long ago that this subject was banned. Paying it forward is the way I express gratitude to those who have gone before me.



Liesel Atwood said:


> I put ACV in the bar, hoping that would close the hair cuticle so I wouldn't have to rinse with it (aversion to smell!) ... Thanks again!


You're very welcome, Liesel!  Keep in mind, that the first year of using a lye-based shampoo has its ups & downs, but eventually, you will find that the hair/scalp has its way of adjusting to the new treatment and eventually you won't need to use an acid rinse at all. I don't have chaper & verse on it, but I read that the acid mantle of the scalp returns in as little as 20 minutes after shampooing.   

You can also use beer as a final rinse... leave it on to add volume while styling your hair or rinse out. Non-domestic beer is said to have more beneficial qualities than what we brew here in the States.

You may like this Parsley Lemon Rinse from Catherine Bardey's book, _"Making Soap and Scents"_:
Juice of one lemon
2 oz finely chopped parsley (for added shine)
8 oz water
Bring water to boil, add parsley, and let stand for 5 minutes. Strain. Add lemon juice and allow to cool. Pour rinse onto freshly shampooed (& conditioned optional) hair. Be sure to keep your eyes shut because the high level of acidity stings. Rinse thoroughly with as cool a water rinse as you can stand. 

That was  one of my favorite rinses when I first started using Shampoo bars. I stopped because I got lazy!


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## Dahila (Jul 20, 2019)

Zany this is why you like the soap, cause it makes our fine hair thicker,  I tried and it is not working for me,  I am paranoiac about loosing more.  Fine blond hair (color on hazelnut) and frigging limp.  I am happy with my syndets and the hair is shiny,  My hair was dull on soap.  I used it for over 3 months and I had to wash it every other day,  with syndet twice a week is good for me.  No offense taken Zany


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## Appalasia (Jul 23, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Oooh this topic....
> 
> If you search enough in this forum you'll find that many did try shampooing with lye based shampoo bars and after an extended period learned that lye+hair is a big no no.
> 
> ...


Very good to know ty!!!!!


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## MickeyRat (Jul 24, 2019)

I'll chime in and say that I've used lye based shampoo bars for over a year.  I do rinse thoroughly but, I don't lower the temperature.    I also use a vinegar rinse (tbls vinegar, cup of water, 6 drops rosemary EO, 6 drops tea tree oil and 3 drops jojoba oil) that I put on right after I get out of the shower and leave in.  I'm a man that is well past the age that a lot of men go bald but, I'm blessed with a thick head of hair.  I don't wear it especially short.  So far, I have no issue with what I'm doing.  My hair looks fine.

I'll add that this is a hobby for me and I give my soap away but, because of what I've read regarding shampoo bars, I keep those just for me.


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## Karen jw (Jul 25, 2019)

I've been using lye based shampoo bars for at least 5 years now. I found regular shampoo irritated my scalp to the point that I thought I had an infestation 
I started with soap from the funky soap shop which I found expensive but worth it not to have the itch.
I have long curly hair and it took a few months for my hair and scalp to adjust and to get the routine right.
My hair felt waxy and unpleasant at first but soon adjusted.
They recommend rinsing with a vinegar rinse which I do occasionally but mostly forget.
I always do a cold rinse and always have, whatever the shampoo I was using.
Every soap I have since made (I just completed my 4th batch today so that's not many and my last batch was a liquid Castile soap) I have used on my hair with great success and so far have not had to shave my head 
I have heard that lye based soap will fade a colour if you happen to dye your hair, but I never noticed this when I was using henna for 4 of those years. I stopped using henna to colour my hair a year ago and it is still there where it hasn't grown out yet.

Lye based shampoo? I love it


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## dixiedragon (Jul 25, 2019)

MickeyRat said:


> I'll chime in and say that I've used lye based shampoo bars for over a year.  I do rinse thoroughly but, I don't lower the temperature.    I also use a vinegar rinse (tbls vinegar, cup of water, 6 drops rosemary EO, 6 drops tea tree oil and 3 drops jojoba oil) that I put on right after I get out of the shower and leave in.  I'm a man that is well past the age that a lot of men go bald but, I'm blessed with a thick head of hair.  I don't wear it especially short.  So far, I have no issue with what I'm doing.  My hair looks fine.
> 
> I'll add that this is a hobby for me and I give my soap away but, because of what I've read regarding shampoo bars, I keep those just for me.



How long is "not especially short"? Ear length? Chin? Shoulder? Longer?

Wikipedia tells me that the average hair growth for people is 6 inches per year. So if your hair is, say, ear length, no part of it is older than 1 year. Meanwhile, my hair is 14 inches from the nape of my neck. So the bottom 6 inches of mine is 4-5 years old, if I assume that to the nape of my neck is 1 year. Using a high pH cleanser (soap) fluffs up the hair cuticles.

This is about colored hair, but it's the most scientific I could find:
http://colurehaircare.com/2017/06/2...-level-hair-color-highlights-bleach-balayage/

If you have highlights, balayage, bleached and or color treated hair, likely the hair came into contact with a high alkali substance to change the hair’s cuticle, and then, it was “neutralized” with an acidic substance to flatten the cuticle again. This chemical process will cause damage to the hair shaft, after this process the proper acidic hair products are needed to rebuild protein bonds, hydrate, close the hair cuticle, protect and preserve hair color, highlights, bleach and or balayage.​The issue with using soap on your hair is that it's doing damage you can't see. If you have short hair, no biggie - you're cutting it off. But if you have medium or long hair, it becomes more problematic. Once it leaves the scalp, hair is dead. So damage is permanent. Once the hair is brittle, split ends, breaking off, etc...There's not anything you can really do. It seems like in the coloring process, you fluff up the cuticles with the coloring, but then you immediately (within an hour or two) are smoothing them back down and performing other treatments, so the damage is minimal and you are protecting the strand.


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## Greenthoughts (Jul 25, 2019)

I'm another one who has been using my shampoo bar for 2 years (maybe 3, at least 2) with nonissues, in faCT my hair seems to be getting stronger, and barely any falls out now, compared to handfuls a few years ago.
I still use conditioner (my hair is to my lower back) and herbal ACV rinse that I leave in. I use comfrey, nettles, rosemary & peppermint infused in olive oil in the soap, and the same herb blend.infused in the ACV.
Maybe genetics, maybe hair type, maybe our water here..but for the long term, lye based shampoo bars have worked wonders for my scalp and hair.
So interesting reading all the comments..and that parsley rinse looks good...


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## earlene (Jul 25, 2019)

Greenthoughts said:


> I'm another one who has been using my shampoo bar for 2 years (maybe 3, at least 2) with nonissues, in faCT my hair seems to be getting stronger, and barely any falls out now, compared to handfuls a few years ago.
> I still use conditioner (my hair is to my lower back) and herbal ACV rinse that I leave in. I use comfrey, nettles, rosemary & peppermint infused in olive oil in the soap, and the same herb blend.infused in the ACV.
> Maybe genetics, maybe hair type, maybe our water here..but for the long term, lye based shampoo bars have worked wonders for my scalp and hair.
> So interesting reading all the comments..and that parsley rinse looks good...



I think there is something to the water idea, but not exclusively.  How the water interacts with the hair+the additive (in this case the particular soap being used) is something I have noticed over the years because I travel a lot.  But with detergent based shampoos it is less obvious, to almost impossible to notice.  With sodium bicarb it was extremely noticeable when I traveled; so much so that my hair felt dirty when washing with water in some other municipalities.  I don't think I recall traveling much during my brief encounter using lye soap on my hair, though, so I am unsure of how much of a difference I may or may not have experienced when I used different water with lye soap.   My hair is pale, fine and straight.  It was below my waist and had not been cut in over 10 years when I went through my lye shampoo experience that turned it to the texture of straw. 

Although you and I are both in Illinois, it is possible we have similar water, but also possible we have totally different water, depending on our locations.  IMO, it's more about our probably hair differences (which is determined by genetics).  But for the sake of argument, our water is something along the lines of 'city water'  (we don't live in a city, but it's not well water and it does come from the town's water supply) but the pipes are very old and the method of 'cleansing' the pipes seems rather archaic to me, but shows how much build-up occurs in our pipes (the water comes out an ugly horrible yellow for a few days a couple of times a year when they 'flush out' the system - so much so that people are warned not to wash whites.)  Perhaps larger municipalities (our population is about 6,000 people and it is a rural farming community) would possibly have water with fewer impurities.  Our water is full of various minerals that I find make drinking it pretty unbearable, so we use a water filter on our drinking faucet, but that is the only water that is filtered.


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## Dahila (Jul 25, 2019)

yesterday I went to hair dresser and she used her shampoo and conditioner on my hair,  Jeez my scalp started itching one hour after that,   The option for me is my ph balanced syndet bar and my awesome conditioner


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## Gaisy59 (Jul 26, 2019)

Dahila said:


> yesterday I went to hair dresser and she used her shampoo and conditioner on my hair,  Jeez my scalp started itching one hour after that,   The option for me is my ph balanced syndet bar and my awesome conditioner



Yes! I recently bought a new natural liquid syndet shampoo and my scalp didnt itch. Yesterday i was at the hairdresser and she used her commercial product and i have been going nuts again with the itching. But now i really really want a syndet bar to get rid of plastic bottles and to make it easier to travel with carry-on.


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## Kiti Williams (Jul 26, 2019)

Dahila said:


> yesterday I went to hair dresser and she used her shampoo and conditioner on my hair,  Jeez my scalp started itching one hour after that,   The option for me is my ph balanced syndet bar and my awesome conditioner




  Take your shampoo bar with you next time you get your hair done.  A good Stylist will use your shampoo.


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## Gaisy59 (Jul 26, 2019)

Kiti Williams said:


> Take your shampoo bar with you next time you get your hair done.  A good Stylist will use your shampoo.



OMG! The light went on. What a great idea!


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## Karen jw (Jul 26, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> I recently bought a new natural liquid syndet shampoo



But there is no such thing as a natural syndet shampoo.
Syndet literally means synthetic detergent. It's made from chemicals (disappointingly). Granted it may not have the irritating effect of SLS shampoos which has to be a good thing, but in no way can it be called natural


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## Gaisy59 (Jul 26, 2019)

Karen jw said:


> But there is no such thing as a natural syndet shampoo.
> Syndet literally means synthetic detergent. It's made from chemicals (disappointingly). Granted it may not have the irritating effect of SLS shampoos which has to be a good thing, but in no way can it be called natural



Lol ya sorry. I am really bad at phrasing things. It is syndet shampoo but with lots of natural ingredients added and no sls(the bad one?) etc.


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## Karen jw (Jul 26, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> Lol ya sorry. I am really bad at phrasing things. It is syndet shampoo but with lots of natural ingredients added and no sls(the bad one?) etc.


I'll let you off 
I was just really disappointed as I thought I'd stumbled across another natural option I could make myself


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## Gaisy59 (Jul 26, 2019)

Karen jw said:


> I'll let you off
> I was just really disappointed as I thought I'd stumbled across another natural option I could make myself



Oh i hear you. I too was hoping but i have discovered that some things are not meant to be. If we want decent hair then some synthetic products are a must. I thought i wrecked my hair when i tried using my homemade soap. And of course i use hair color which is not good for us too, but i tried the natural gray look once and i scared myself so not going there again .

For anyone in Canada i found a company that makes syndet shampoo and conditioner bars if you are interested to try before making them yourself. I want to try before i diy just to see if i like them first.

They are called Unwrapped Life Canada and are from Alberta. And no i have not tried them yet, but i will be ordering on Monday if you want to wait for my impression.


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## Soapymumma (Jul 26, 2019)

Liesel Atwood said:


> Thank you, Dahila, for this information.  I will look for Susan's blog.  Actually, I'm not new to soaping or skin care.  It's been about 25 years since I began my soaping journey.  I am new to shampoo, though, as well as the world of PH testing.  I learned by doing, reading and experimenting.  Thank goodness for the soap calculators!  I enjoy formulating my own recipes and trying out others recipes.  Making shampoo has been fun, even though there are two distinct groups of thought.  Thankfully, this group has helped me understand some of the differences between the soap "camp" and syndet "camp".  Until a month ago, I didn't need to test for PH.  I knew that if i used a soap calculator and followed the recipe precisely, one way or another soap would be the result.  It was easy to tell if the soap was "good soap" or lye heavy.  Then I saw soapers on youtube, ph testing once or maybe even twice in a soap batch, and i thought I should do that as well.  But I've found PH strips to be a bit of a waste!  It can be a novel thing, to know approx. what the ph of my soap is, but they don't tell me anything i didn't already know, and that was, safe or not safe.  Good soap or Not Good soap.  Now my task is to research shampoo bars, and syndet bars, and figure out where I stand.  There are many things to consider, and I appreciate all the voices I've heard and the info I've learned here.  I am thankful to everyone who has contributed to my shampoo journey!
> 
> Hi SoapyMumma!
> Thank you for your response to my questions!  As with the other lovely ladies who have responded, you are obviously very educated in the soaping arena.  I have learned something new and interesting from everyone!  I would like to ask....what do you use in your liquid shampoo?  The only liquid shampoo I have made is potassium hydroxide based.  Do you use the same cleansers and conditioners that you would use in a solid syndet bar?  This will be an interesting and fun journey for me....shampoo is a little different.  I think I still prefer soapmaking, but it will be very useful to know how to make shampoo that will satisfy both the "no soap" and the lye based shampoo bar groups.  Lots of research ahead for me, but I like that!  Nursing has taught me that learning is a lifelong journey....as life is a journey in learning!  I must apologise to the person who first started this thread.  It was not my intention to hijack your post.  Guess my questions got the better of me.  I hope we're all good.


Hi sorry for the delayed response, life happened and I couldn’t get back here!  I gave up making liquid shampoo a few years back. I’ve been making sydnet bars and playing with different ones for a while. I experiment every time so I’m yet to find a favourite. I’ve got a base recipe and switch up additives each time. My husband travels a lot for work so the bars are easy. I make small ones for him for his trips. Beats a bottle. Then there’s the no plastic thing which is something we are conscious of.  So try I can’t help you with liquid. It’s been so long.


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## Kiti Williams (Jul 26, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> OMG! The light went on. What a great idea!




Both my daughter and granddaughter do this, my granddaughter's stylist loves the shampoo bar and asked for one.


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## Gaisy59 (Jul 26, 2019)

Kiti Williams said:


> Both my daughter and granddaughter do this, my granddaughter's stylist loves the shampoo bar and asked for one.



Here is a question then for your girls...how do you know if you need a hydrating bar or more protein or it doesnt really matter cause its all one formula (more or less) anyway?


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## Dahila (Jul 26, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> Yes! I recently bought a new natural liquid syndet shampoo and my scalp didnt itch. Yesterday i was at the hairdresser and she used her commercial product and i have been going nuts again with the itching. But now i really really want a syndet bar to get rid of plastic bottles and to make it easier to travel with carry-on.


oh you have the same problem as I do, Gaisy,   I can not use commercial products,  Right now my scalp is not itching, but I just washed with my syndet 



Kiti Williams said:


> Take your shampoo bar with you next time you get your hair done.  A good Stylist will use your shampoo.


I keep forgetting to take it >  I had not forget to take some to test for her


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## Gaisy59 (Jul 26, 2019)

Dahila said:


> oh you have the same problem as I do, Gaisy,   I can not use commercial products,  Right now my scalp is not itching, but I just washed with my syndet



Hey Dahila my mom has the same problem with itchy scalp. I have tried switching shampoos but it doesnt take away the itch so now i am going to try the syndet bar.


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## MGM (Jul 26, 2019)

Do you need to do an ACV rinse with a syndet bar, or it is just wash and wear, so to speak?


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## Gaisy59 (Jul 26, 2019)

MGM said:


> Do you need to do an ACV rinse with a syndet bar, or it is just wash and wear, so to speak?



Cannot speak for anyone else but i once tried an acv rinse and all i could smell was acv for a long time. Maybe my nose is too sensitive but i sure didnt like that smell on my head. I have seen hard conditioner bars which I would prefer in all honesty.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 26, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> i tried the natural gray look once and i scared myself so not going there again .


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## Dawni (Jul 27, 2019)

MGM said:


> Do you need to do an ACV rinse with a syndet bar, or it is just wash and wear, so to speak?


Depends on the syndet, and depends on your hair.

My current syndet is fine without the acv rinse but I do use a conditioner bar on the ends.

I've used one where my hair was horrible even with both the acv rinse and conditioner, and one that only needed the acv without conditioner.

Trial and error it is, for the syndet, the rinse and/or the conditioner. In all of the ones mentioned, my scalp is the one taking the beating so I've not settled on one yet.

Oh, I have to say that throughout all the trials, I use a homemade hair oil. And while the acv smell doesn't completely go away (my hair is the sort that grabs and clings on to all smells - cigarettes, bathroom n car air fresheners, cinema seats lol), it fades into a lemony scent that isn't overpowering, and others don't seem to mind.


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## Dahila (Jul 27, 2019)

MGM said:


> Do you need to do an ACV rinse with a syndet bar, or it is just wash and wear, so to speak?


No I put on my conditioner then rince it off .  That's all I do .   Syndet is not soap and does not lift up the cuticles of hair 
The ph of syndet shampoo bar (in my opinion) is the most important thing , and at least 2 powdered surfacants and at least one liquid I use Cocamidopropyl betaine


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## Kiti Williams (Jul 27, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> Here is a question then for your girls...how do you know if you need a hydrating bar or more protein or it doesnt really matter cause its all one formula (more or less) anyway?




   I ask questions of the customer.  Really long hair with dry brittle ends, very curly hair that the natural oils can't get to the ends, limp dull hair. overly bleached/colored hair, ect.  This type of questioning gives me the overview of their hair.  I blend up a test bar for them to try out, if it works then we are in business.  The key is to define the hair's needs, after that it is just simple mixing.


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## Dahila (Jul 28, 2019)

Kiti Williams said:


> I ask questions of the customer.  Really long hair with dry brittle ends, very curly hair that the natural oils can't get to the ends, limp dull hair. overly bleached/colored hair, ect.  This type of questioning gives me the overview of their hair.  I blend up a test bar for them to try out, if it works then we are in business.  The key is to define the hair's needs, after that it is just simple mixing.


I provide all protein and oils in the conditioner


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## Kiti Williams (Jul 29, 2019)

Dahila said:


> I provide all protein and oils in the conditioner




  My shampoo Bars don't need an additional conditioner.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 29, 2019)

Whether a person needs a conditioner or can just use the shampoo depends on the person's hair and and personal preference. I formulate my conditioner specifically to control frizz and reduce combing friction. I also like a bit of panthenol to reduce scalp itchiness and add shine to the hair. These qualities are easier to build into a conditioner because there are no detergents to prevent the ingredients from coating and bonding to the hair shaft and scalp.


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## cmzaha (Jul 29, 2019)

Kiti Williams said:


> I ask questions of the customer.  Really long hair with dry brittle ends, very curly hair that the natural oils can't get to the ends, limp dull hair. overly bleached/colored hair, ect.  This type of questioning gives me the overview of their hair.  I blend up a test bar for them to try out, if it works then we are in business.  The key is to define the hair's needs, after that it is just simple mixing.



If you are making lye-based shop you are calling shampoo I give you kudos for marketing skills and I hope your insurance is up to date.  No matter how many oils, proteins, etc it is still soap, with to high a ph for hair. Hair really cannot "adjust" as some mention, it is dead and dead does not adjust. The person using it may adjust but not the hair itself. 

Check out the law suit against Chaz Dean. It is hard to find as the product has disappeared, but his original shampoo was "All Natural,| and was a lye-based LS. I told my husband at the time he was going to pay for that one, and shame on him because he had to know better. His products today are no longer lye-based and are basically a lotion/conditioner


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## RobinRogers (Jul 30, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> If you are making lye-based shop you are calling shampoo I give you kudos for marketing skills and I hope your insurance is up to date.  No matter how many oils, proteins, etc it is still soap, with to high a ph for hair. Hair really cannot "adjust" as some mention, it is dead and dead does not adjust. The person using it may adjust but not the hair itself.
> 
> Check out the law suit against Chaz Dean. It is hard to find as the product has disappeared, but his original shampoo was "All Natural,| and was a lye-based LS. I told my husband at the time he was going to pay for that one, and shame on him because he had to know better. His products today are no longer lye-based and are basically a lotion/conditioner


Thanks for telling about soap vs shampoo in labeling. I don’t sell soap (yet) and a friend said her “shampoo bars” were not big sellers. However, I have been using my own shampoo bars (soap!) and I really like it. I use a 50% apple cider vinegar rinse. When I am done, I don’t smell the vinegar. I have an oily scalp and my hair has always been thick but very fine. Feels like baby hair! It was so limp but I couldn’t have perms because the hair is so fine it would become like straw and my scalp had sores. Believe it or not, my hair has an amazing amount of body now! If I sell soap, I don’t plan to sell this bar. I don’t even gift it. I may give some to my sons who have very short hair. One uses commercial bar soap on his now!!! Ewwww!!!


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## cmzaha (Jul 30, 2019)

Most likely your hair is appearing to have body due to damage from the soap.


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## MGM (Jul 30, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> Check out the law suit against Chaz Dean. It is hard to find as the product has disappeared, but his original shampoo was "All Natural,| and was a lye-based LS. I told my husband at the time he was going to pay for that one, and shame on him because he had to know better. His products today are no longer lye-based and are basically a lotion/conditioner



A $26 million payout tells you that they're making WAY more money by continuing to sell, even if they're fined.


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## RobinRogers (Jul 30, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> Most likely your hair is appearing to have body due to damage from the soap.


My beautician says it looks so healthy!


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 30, 2019)

RobinRogers said:


> My beautician says it looks so healthy!


Mine too.


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## RobinRogers (Jul 30, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Mine too.


I was beginning to think there was no one who agreed that soap (shampoo) bars were good! Guess it depends on the recipe and on hair/scalp type. Of course, there are always opinions. I will use mine until my trusted beautician sees a problem!


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## Karen jw (Jul 31, 2019)

I've been checking out the company that I originally found when looking for an alternative to chemical shampoos that were so irritating. Their shampoo bars are what got me into soap making. 
All their soaps and shampoos are lye based using CP or HP methods. They are a huge company now having worked up from being a tiny home business but still hand make their soaps in small batches with all natural ingredients.
They sell loads of shampoo bars all over the UK, and I and many others have used them for years with no ill effects.
Do you think the problems noted above come from mistakes in the manufacturing due to lack of testing and regulations? In the UK every process and recipe has to be assessed, safety certified and then stuck to rigourously. As well as being insured. I'm quite sure that recipes for lye based shampoo bars would not be approved if they tested unsafe for purpose. 
I don't see any extra ingredients in there other than oils and essential oils so nothing that would reduce the pH so that's the only thing I can think of.

Here is a link to their site. You can check out their claims and ingredients and see if I've missed anything.
https://www.funkysoapshop.com


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## Dahila (Jul 31, 2019)

you know how it goes with professionals?
I brought to Canada a puppy; boxer from last litter .  She was a beautiful dog.  I went to well known vet to give her a clean bill of health before breeding.  He told me that I have no chance with her on dog shows or breeding here,  "do you know how beautiful dogs are in Canada. "  Boxers in Canada sucked at this time,  not in standard anyway., It was 30 years ago so now it is different situation, but still they are not like the ones in Europe.   I had not say anything,  my dog was from the best line of German boxers .  She won few shows here and her pupps were gone in like a day.  From this time on I do check professionals, I even check my doctor, they make mistakes too.  I will never believe that soap does not damage hair cuticles


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## Dahila (Jul 31, 2019)

Karen jw said:


> I've been checking out the company that I originally found when looking for an alternative to chemical shampoos that were so irritating. Their shampoo bars are what got me into soap making.
> All their soaps and shampoos are lye based using CP or HP methods. They are a huge company now having worked up from being a tiny home business but still hand make their soaps in small batches with all natural ingredients.
> They sell loads of shampoo bars all over the UK, and I and many others have used them for years with no ill effects.
> Do you think the problems noted above come from mistakes in the manufacturing due to lack of testing and regulations? In the UK every process and recipe has to be assessed, safety certified and then stuck to rigourously. As well as being insured. I'm quite sure that recipes for lye based shampoo bars would not be approved if they tested unsafe for purpose.
> ...


they are safe on skin but they damage hair,  damaging hair does not cause any health problems,  It is just damaged hair which is dead anyway.  I have friends who make the same things as I do,  UK, and all over the Europe,  Eu regulation is about safety not the beautifying .....


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 31, 2019)

Karen jw said:


> Here is a link to their site. You can check out their claims and ingredients and see if I've missed anything.
> https://www.funkysoapshop.com


I love this!
*Adjusting to your Natural Shampoo Bar*
It certainly explains why some experienced soapers like Dahila have problems using lye-based soap for shampoo. Thanks for sharing that link, Karen.







RobinRogers said:


> I was beginning to think there was no one who agreed that soap (shampoo) bars were good!


A little background... When I joined SMF in 2017, the subject of "Shampoo Bars" was *banned* from discussion -- mainly because of the passion of the syndet crowd which caused experienced soap makers like myself to back off just to keep the peace.

During that first year, I saw other experienced soapmakers leave in disgust, one after another, because of the less than kind treatment they received when they shared their knowledge and experience which didn't align with the majority. It has only been within the last year that I've been allowed to participate in discussions about Shampoo Bars, which I am grateful for, but still get nit-picked to death simply because my "opinion" is based on knowledge and experience, i.e., not on science. As I stated in this thread in 2017, I didn't learn to make all natural homemade soap only to be told I have to use syndets (synthetic/detergent) for shampoo. Here's the link to that post:
*https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...uid-soap-and-shampoo.62836/page-2#post-636758*


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## Karen jw (Jul 31, 2019)

I believe that whatever product you put in your hair is going to damage it to some extent. Wind, sunshine, heat, life n general damages hair. When I used synthetic shampoos I used to have to change them frequently as they stopped working the same as they did at the start and I always had to use conditioner on my long curly hair.
All I know it's that for the last 4 years I haven't needed to use a conditioner at all, my scalp no longer itches like I have lice and I have noticed no more damage than previously


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## Kiti Williams (Jul 31, 2019)

RobinRogers said:


> I was beginning to think there was no one who agreed that soap (shampoo) bars were good! Guess it depends on the recipe and on hair/scalp type. Of course, there are always opinions. I will use mine until my trusted beautician sees a problem!




  I have been blasted about how lye based shampoo bars are bad.  What on earth did they do before all this synthetic shampoos came out?!  My Gran remembered making soap/shampoo for her hair, and for the  rest of the family.  No one's hair was fried from it.



Zany_in_CO said:


> I love this!
> *Adjusting to your Natural Shampoo Bar*
> It certainly explains why some experienced soapers like Dahila have problems using lye-based soap for shampoo. Thanks for sharing that link, Karen.
> View attachment 40651
> ...




  Thank you so much!  I was using my daughter's shampoo (made from Dr Donner's soap), so my hair had already gotten adjusted to it - shampoo vars were just a solid form of what she made.  I did notice that I had a waxy "line" about 2" below my shoulders, one wash with the synthetic shampoo got rid of it and it never came back.


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## earlene (Aug 4, 2019)

Kiti Williams said:


> I have been blasted about how lye based shampoo bars are bad.  What on earth did they do before all this synthetic shampoos came out?!  My Gran remembered making soap/shampoo for her hair, and for the  rest of the family.  No one's hair was fried from it.



She also probably did not wash her hair every day or two as so many people have been doing since the influx of shampoo commercials that said things like, 'so gentle I wash my hair every day' and stuff like that.  I am probably dating myself by quoting what was in shampoo commercials when I was young.  Plus daily use of hair spray and other various products, not to mention air pollution, that makes one feel the need to wash their hair more frequently.   Also ladies didn't do a lot of the activities many women do today that lends itself to making the hair more dirty or retain odors we don't want in our hair (smoky night-clubs, daily jogging, working out at the gym, competition sports, stuff like that)

I read an article in an old newspaper that was published over a century ago, wherein the recommendation for how to wash women's hair (customarily long like I used to wear mine) included dilute Castile soap, and to wash gently (no vigorous scrubbing) and rinse thoroughly with rain water until the water runs clear.  The recommended frequency for washing the hair was approximately monthly or perhaps twice monthly if necessary.  This was in a New York (US) paper as I recall, so it only pertains to what was the accepted norm at the time in the US.  I have no idea what the norms were in other parts of the world, other than that hair washing was less frequent still in some areas where soap was not as ready a commodity in some parts of the world in some eras.


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## cmzaha (Aug 4, 2019)

Earlene is correct, they did not wash their hair even weekly. They would brush it to keep distributing the oils. So you cannot compare. During wartime and the depression, most had to use soap, even beauty salons or they had used very harsh shampoo diluted down. 

Anyone that wants to use soap, go for it, but if you damage your hair don't expect your Beautician to fix it since only cutting it will fix it. Even the cheapest shampoos are better than what they were 20 yrs ago.


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## Dahila (Aug 4, 2019)

they also used juka roots or soap something forgot the name, the plant root powder that I was adding to soaps to get more bubbles,  I do not feel like running downstairs to check the name.  I bet someone knows what it is,  The hair was washed once a months when full moon.  It suppose to make hair shiny.  Actually there is even some research , how we connect to moon phases (women)
they also used a lot of herbs to rinse the hair,  women had a long hair,  so for some of them it took a good 12 hours for hair to dry,


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## MickeyRat (Aug 5, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> I love this!
> *Adjusting to your Natural Shampoo Bar*
> It certainly explains why some experienced soapers like Dahila have problems using lye-based soap for shampoo. Thanks for sharing that link, Karen.



I can verify the fact that it took a few weeks for my hair to look right after I started using my soap shampoo bars but, it did come around.  I had read about an adjustment period somewhere so I wasn't alarmed.


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## Dawni (Aug 5, 2019)

Dahila said:


> they also used juka roots or soap something forgot the name, the plant root powder that I was adding to soaps to get more bubbles,  I do not feel like running downstairs to check the name.  I bet someone knows what it is,  The hair was washed once a months when full moon.  It suppose to make hair shiny.  Actually there is even some research , how we connect to moon phases (women)
> they also used a lot of herbs to rinse the hair,  women had a long hair,  so for some of them it took a good 12 hours for hair to dry,


Yucca or soapnuts?


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## penelopejane (Aug 6, 2019)

What people did before shampoos.  I think we've learnt a thing or two since the early 1900s and am happy to embrace natural shampoo (without any lye).

https://historythings.com/people-use-shampoo/


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## Dahila (Aug 6, 2019)

Dawni said:


> Yucca or soapnuts?


i forgot to go downstairs will do it now: Soapwort root powder.  This is what I use. and you actually can make solution and wash your hair 
I found this, but I am sold to syndet shampoos, https://www.natural-homeremedies-for-life.com/homemade-soapwort-shampoo.html


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## Kiti Williams (Aug 6, 2019)

I am a bit grumbly today, I had a batch of oils just the right temp for the lye and the bowl fulled with 48 ozs of oils fell onto the floor!  I yelled for my Hubby to get the old towels so I could sop up the mess.  Do you know that warm oils can find the darnest things to flow under?!  I had to trash the pair of legging I was wearing, toss my crocs into the tub, and I stormed off for a hot shower!  My Sweet Hubby cleaned up the mess for me.


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## Baqn (Aug 29, 2019)

Hallo. I can't disagree that most shampoos have pH below 7 but I found scientific article where they investigated 123 shampoos. The pH range of all 123 shampoos is between 3.5 to 9.0. For adults the preferable pH is from 5.5 to 7.0 when for children it is between 6.5 to 8.0. Also 

I noticed that anti dandruff shampoos are with slightly higher pH than regular. They are in the same  range from 5.5 to 7.0 but there are more shampoos with pH 7.0 compared to shampoos for regular use. Even there is a shampoo with pH 9. I suppose that this is due to the antifungal activity of the additives in them. 

Another  thing they have investigated were Commercial, Dermatological and Professional shampoos. Commercial shampoos are in the range 5.5 to 7.5, Dermatological - 4.0 to 7.0 (there is one with 9.0) but Professional are in the range of 5.0 to 6.0. 

There are few shampoos in the pH range 7.5 - 9.0 but they exist.

The scientists that have made that investigation conclude that:
 "Alkaline pH may increase the negative electrical charge of the hair fiber surface and, therefore, increase friction between the fibers. This may lead to cuticle damage and fiber breakage. It is a reality and not a myth that lower pH of shampoos may cause less frizzing for generating less negative static electricity on the fiber surface. Interestingly, only 38% of the popular brand shampoos against 75% of the salons shampoos presented a pH ≤ 5.0. Pediatric shampoos had the pH of 7.0 because of the “no-tear” concept. There is no standardized value for the final pH. The authors believe that it is important to reveal the pH value on the shampoo label, but studies are needed to establish the best pH range for both the scalp and the hair fiber's health."

My conclusion is that choosing the right pH of your shampoo is strongly individual and also influenced by the purpose of the shampoo.


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