# Maximum of Cocoabutter in CP?



## MySoapyHeart (Oct 1, 2016)

*Updated info - Maximum of Cocoabutter in CP?*

I am sorry to bother you fine folk`s, but I found it safer to start a new thread instead of resurrecting old threads and quoting old posts.

I have searched the forum, and read many posts that said some of you like to use a lot of cocoabutter in your soaps. I Personally I have not gone over 10%, simply because it is expensive for me to get a hold of it as I have to order it from overseas. 10% has worked wonderfully for me. Bubbly, conditioning soaps that lasts and lasts. That is fine.

But, here the other day one of my friends out of the blue handed me a jar of unrefined, foodgrade cocoabutter - *250 grams*. She wanted me to make a soap that was made with it, and I quote:_ <<at the highest procentage possible in the soap>>_. 
She wanted no fragrance, no color or any additives, but a clean soap made with ALL of the cocoabutter she gave me. I told her to see what I could do, but told her I had to check it out first, to see what was possible without compromizing with the quality, and for this I had to do some proper research first.

I know too much cocoabutter can make a brittle soap, so since I have no experience in making a soap with this much cocoabutter I am hoping that those of you that have some experience with it, could lend me some advice?

I am making a batch, curing it for the usual 3 months as I always do, testing it on myself first after some proper curetime to see how it fares as weeks and months pass by. She will receive it when I am sure it is ok. I am aware that it may not suds or buble up as much as other soaps, and that it will be a soap that will benefit a loooong cure.

She allready know the drill, this is one of my friends who have gotten my soaps for a long time so she knows how strict I am on this issue and I am not taking any shortcuts. So that I am not stressed about! 

But the recipe itself is a challenge, as I want to use as much as I can without reducing lather too much. And I can`t really do a test batch as I am out of both shea and coconut butter - except this jar she handed me. This friend is not sensitive to coconut oil, so I am comfortable with 25% coconut oil for this one, perhaps even 30% if you think it is necessary. 

The oils I have on hand to combine with cocabutter, are:

Olive oil (refined)
High Oleic Sunflower oil
Almond oil (refined)
Avocado oil (refined)
Coconut oil - 92 deg. (hydrogenated )
Lard
Castor

I don`t expect you to hand me your secret recipes, but if you please could give some advice or steer me in some sort of direction as to what oils is the best to combine with all this butter. I am open to any advice you can give me.

Thanks so much in advance, guys.


----------



## Obsidian (Oct 1, 2016)

Generally, butters are recommended at a max of 20%

You could try a recipe like this

lard 30%
coco butter 20%
olive or one of you other liquid oils 25%
coconut 20%
castor 5%


----------



## Chefmom (Oct 1, 2016)

Will you consider hot process?  I personally love cocoa butter soaps and have made quite a few formulations over the years. I also know from personal use that with cocoa butter, a lot doesn't have to be used to be able to feel the difference.  When I use it in a cold process formulation (or the base of a hot process) I usually hover in the 5-7%.  I've gone as high as 10% and I don't believe it made any more difference that the 5%, so I've always just used the lower amount....since it has always been one of my most expensive oils/fats.

That said...awhile back I did a couple of hot process superfat tests and cocoa butter was my standout winner to add after the cook.  For me it stood out and made a simple soap recipe something luxurious at just a 3% superfat addition. As an addendum...cocoa butter added after the cook seems to bloom in the cure time.  Just like when chocolate isn't stored correctly and the various fats bloom to the surface, cocoa butter forms a crystalline structure on the outside of the soap.  If the soap is colored it is most noticeable, if left white it doesn't stand out as much. And cocoa butter added after the cook also changes the timing on cutting the loaf, it needs to be cut sooner to prevent the loaf from being brittle.  

It would be interesting to hear about a 20% cocoa butter soap, and it is probably something I would try in a very small amount, just to test.  I would balance it with:
cocoa butter 20%
lard 25%
coconut 20%
20% olive
10% avocado 
castor 5%

My instincts still say to split that cocoa butter amount in half with shea butter...but that is me. 

And....to throw in another wrench....I have recently bought Kokum butter and my skin is telling me that it just might like it  better than cocoa butter.  I won't have a positive full test until the winter sets in....but I've got the first kokum curing with other tests to follow.  It's a tight race.Save​


----------



## Arimara (Oct 1, 2016)

Here's my first recipe. Feel free to tweak it

Avocado oil- 20%
Coconut oi- 20%
Olive oil (I had some herbs infused in this)- 45%
Cocoa butter- 15%

This soap will be plenty hard and I liked the lather.


----------



## green soap (Oct 1, 2016)

This is what I would do with my 900g batches (you did not say the size of your batch). At this % cocoa butter you should smell it if it is unrefined.


Total oil weight	900 g
Water as percent of oil weight	33.06 %
Super Fat/Discount	5 %
Lye Concentration	30.0000 %
Water : Lye Ratio	2.3333:1
Sat : Unsat Ratio	47 : 53
Iodine	51
INS	161
Fragrance Ratio	0
Fragrance Weight	0.00 g


 	Pounds	Ounces	Grams
Water	0.656	10.50	297.53
Lye - NaOH	0.281	4.50	127.51
Oils	1.984	31.75	900.00
Fragrance	0.000	0.00	0.00
Soap weight before CP cure or HP cookMore info	2.921	46.74	1,325.04


#	√	Oil/Fat	%	Pounds	Ounces	Grams
1		Cocoa Butter	27.78	0.551	8.82	250.00
2		Coconut Oil, 76 deg	27.78	0.551	8.82	250.00
3		Olive Oil	38.89	0.772	12.35	350.00
4		Castor Oil	5.56	0.110	1.76	50.00
 	 	Totals	100.00	1.984	31.75	900.00


Soap Bar Quality	Range	Your Recipe
Hardness	29 - 54	46
Cleansing	12 - 22	19
Conditioning	44 - 69	51
Bubbly	14 - 46	24
Creamy	16 - 48	32
Iodine	41 - 70	51
INS	136 - 165	161
Lauric	13
Myristic	5
Palmitic	16
Stearic	11
Ricinoleic	5
Oleic	39
Linoleic	6
Linolenic	0


----------



## penelopejane (Oct 1, 2016)

There is a lovely recipe on this board that was originally called a Genny's "shampoo bar". Soap as shampoo is not a good idea but the recipe is beautiful as a soap. It is tried and tested: 

40% OO
30% Avocado oil 
10% Shea Butter (substitute the Cocoa butter here) 
10% Soy Oil
10% Castor 

I reduce the Castor oil to 5% and add it to the OO. 
I use Rice Bran Oil instead of the Soy oil and others use Safflower Oil (HO). Or put more cocoa butter in here. You can play with that percentage to your hearts content. 
Also play with the SF but keep it below 5%. 

It makes a lovely bar - creamy, bubbly, non-drying-your-skin-out (I'd almost say moisturising but soap can't do that apparently! )

I've used Almond oil instead of the Avocado oil and it is lovely too.

You will detract from/negate the properties of the cocoa butter by adding coconut oil. You do not need it to make a bubbly bar with butters up to about 30%.  If you must use CO use it to 10%. 

If I were you I'd make her a couple of different test batches with her 250g. See which she likes then she can buy more butter.


----------



## osso (Oct 2, 2016)

I have used cocoa butter at 25% and it bloomed quite a bit, so I wouldn't go that high.


----------



## ngian (Oct 3, 2016)

Shea and Cocoa butters is generally adviced to use them up to 15%. At that range you can definitely feel what these butters can give to the suds of soap (more luxurious feeling maybe because of the unsaponifiables).

I have used once shea butter at 70% and it gives a really interesting HARD soap bar.

These butters belong to the stearic FA family that is even less water soluble than the palmitic ones (palm, lard), can speed up trace and make a soap bar that can last very long.

So if you exceed the 15% amount and want to reach 50% I would advise you to use 28-30% lye concentration, CO / PKO oils up to 35% and Castor up to 10%.

I maybe make a small batch with:

55% Shea (or Cocoa) butter
30-35% Coconut
5-10% Castor


30-35% Coconut oil might not be so cleaning in such a huge amount of stearic acid in the recipe.


----------



## earlene (Oct 4, 2016)

FYI, you can make 100% Cocoa Butter soap.  I did as a test of single oil soaps.  I used 0% SF and an individual mold, so cutting was not necessary.  

So if she wants a soap with the highest percentage possible, you can make one at 100%.  It doesn't bubble much but it produces a very fine lather.  In the beginning it smelled wonderful (I love the smell of cocoa butter) now at 14 months, it has no odor left.  It started out a light beige, but now it is whiter than I would have expected. 

I would not recommend 0% SF if you want a luxurious bar, nor would I recommend 100% Cocoa Butter as a luxury bar, either.  Pure Cocoa Butter makes my skin feel great, but 100% Cocoa Butter soap does not make my skin feel great.  I just tried it again, and although I do like the lather, my skin feels dry now, whereas normally it does not when I wash with a well balanced bar.


----------



## MySoapyHeart (Oct 10, 2016)

First of all; thank you ALL for popping in with suggestions and advice for me, I really appreciate it! 

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but I became sick as a dog and had to take it easy after my post. I suddenly got hit with bad headaches, stuffed nose and achy body so I just couldn`t manage to write you back. Making soap was not possible either. Sure sign of me being sick is when I can`t even make a small batch of soap. Seriously. 

So I have just been taking it easy and try to get better day by day. Still having a bad headache and sore and tingly  throat, so I am *sorry *I am not doing my usual quoting and getting back to each and everyone of you as  I always do when I reply in my threads. I am actually having hard enough time to write this, my head is simply not with me today. 

But just wanted to say that I have read ALL the replies, and so much good advice from all of you, so thank you!

After I wrote the post, I plopped down on the couch, drank hot tea while I ruffled through my stash of recipes. Most of them I have tested many times with great results. But I found one that I have been meaning to test out. It was a recipe I put together many months ago, but never made because I never had that much cocoabutter to "spend" in one go. So I think I will go for that one since I can`t seem to get it out of my system untill I actually make it. 

Even though I am well over that phase where I was experimenting like crazy, because I have over time developed good recipes that makes me happy and I repeat making. But this one... You know the itch you get when there is something you just have to test out before you can decide if it is a good one that you want to develop further. 

I will get back to you on how it ended up, and how it looks, and the complete recipe too. I am not posting the recipe yet because it may be tweaked a bit. 

But it do have 25% cocoabutter in it. Yup. Stay tuned.

Just mentioning also, that  
the Genny shampoo bar I have indeed made before, someone mentioned it here, and I agree, it makes a lovely piece of soap, and it has 10% butter. But I wanted to use much more, because 10% is what I always use as a standard in my soaps.

Thanks again! Now I need a rest. Take care, talk soon : )


----------



## crispysoap (Oct 10, 2016)

Sorry to hear you have been (and still are) poorly. Wishing you a speedy recovery!


----------



## Arimara (Oct 10, 2016)

I hope you feel better. I'm still coughing my lungs up myself. No point soaping if you don't have the energy;  gotta stay safe.


----------



## MySoapyHeart (Feb 4, 2017)

I see this thread needs a little updatin`n!

So, as I am writing this I have _just _washed my hands with this soap. I`ll let you know in a minute how it feels.

So, I posted the thread on the 1`st, and made the soap on october 4`th - 2016.

When I made it I decided to take a risk, because as I mentioned in one of the replies, that I  decided to go with 25% cocoabutter, as that was actually the entire batch of butter my friend gave me  

I decided to go with that much because:

1) It was an oportunity to use a lot of butter without having to actually pay for it. Even though I paid for the rest of the ingredients I have always wanted to try something like this at least once so it was a win win.

2) All she wanted in return was 1 single bar of soap, but hoped I could use as much cocoabutter as possible in the recipe.

As my hands have just been cleaned using this soap, I am really happy with the results!

It gives off some nice bubbles, and as I rub the bar of soap it turns the bubbles into creamy, soft and smooth, creamy lather in matter of seconds. Everything rinses off well and leaves my hands clean but never dry. Nor do I get any feeligs of icky residue on my hands, they just feel soft and clean. The soap itself is INCREDIBLY long lasting! The piece you see in the image has been used non stop for over two months straight.

Soap was left unfragranced, no color.

My notes says:
-Well behaved, smooth, easy to work with.
- Cut the next day (12 hours after making)
- Smell of the cocoabutter is strong!

The latter is still true, it smells just like cocoabutter still.

Here are some images of the soap:













Going to bed now but will check in tomorrow if anyone has some questions.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 4, 2017)

That's fantastic. I want to make another batch but I can't yet.


----------



## earlene (Feb 5, 2017)

It sounds and looks lovely.  So what other oils did you use?  Any other additives?


----------



## MySoapyHeart (Feb 5, 2017)

*Updated info - Maximum of Cocoabutter in CP?*



earlene said:


> It sounds and looks lovely.  So what other oils did you use?  Any other additives?



I can share the entire recipe in case someone is interested.

After reading all the input and advice given to me I decided I just needed to go my own way with this one and play with soapcalc to see if I couldn`t come up with something, because I couldn`t really implement _all _the adcive given.

So I played around with soapcalc to get an ok balance in this recipe. Btw - this isn`t a revolutionary recipe, I am sure someone else has come up with something similar way before my time, but this is at least what I ended up with.

Although the numbers are what they are, _and I understand that not everyone is going to like them, _they really don`t tell the entire story, because I really, really, really love this soap ta` death. 

What surprized me was that it was so wellbehaved and easy to work with it was like I could just leave and let it make itself. I wasn`t expecting that since it has 250 grams of cocoabutter in there. Not to mention I soaped with a water discount...

I expected it to set super fast, get false trace etc, but nothing. It just stayed creamy, easy going and was so wellbehaved that I didn`t have to rush at all. The lard, olive and avocado may have helped with that bit.

I would absolutely make it over and over again if I could, but when you read the recipe you`ll notice it won`t be a cheap soap to make *cough* 

*1 kg batch* (a little over 2 pounds) 

Also note that I soaped a littlebit warmer than usual with this one, but I don`t have temps for you, sorry. I just use my hand underneat the bowl to feel the temps. I quit using thermometer shortly after starting my soapy adventure, because I actually found that my instincts worked better than any thermometer for some reason. I usually soap in room temperature/ slightly above, but here everything was warmer so the oils never became foggy but stayed clear.

The lyewater was room temp.

*Recipe SF 3% *

35% Lard
25% cocoabutter 
15% olive oil
15% avocado oil
5% coconut _(My friend is a bit sensitive for coconut, kept it  low for that reason)_
5% castor

*Additives:* None - not even sugar,

Even though I always use sugar in all my soaps it was left out on this one. I`ll bet it would get bublier if I added sugar.

No color, no fragrance.

Cut after 12 hours. 

Still it smells a lot of cocoabutter, and I love that.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 5, 2017)

^^ THis is MY kind of recipe. I'd still switch out the coconut oil for PKO or babassu but It's totally after my own heart.


----------



## Nao (Feb 5, 2017)

That looks awesome, I have to try it someday 0o0


----------



## CaraBou (Feb 5, 2017)

Thanks for the follow-up with all the great details. It's good to know 25% worked well for you, especially with that low of coconut. I've used almost that much shea butter in a very similar recipe (no coconut, same lard) and got good results too.


----------



## MySoapyHeart (Feb 6, 2017)

Arimara said:


> ^^ THis is MY kind of recipe. I'd still switch out the coconut oil for PKO or babassu but It's totally after my own heart.



Glad to hear it : )

I wish I could get a hold of those oils, but then I had to pay huge shippingcosts, as these oils are not available to get over the counter (or anywhere else for that matter) here in Norway. 



Nao said:


> That looks awesome, I have to try it someday 0o0



Thanks! It is a more expensive recipe but if you have an oportunity to try something like this (or this recipe exactly) we love pictures, we loooove pictures of soap in here!



CaraBou said:


> Thanks for the follow-up with all the great details. It's good to know 25% worked well for you, especially with that low of coconut. I've used almost that much shea butter in a very similar recipe (no coconut, same lard) and got good results too.



Sheabutter is lovely too, it is my #1 favourite butter, my skin soak it right up and get so soft. And I use 10% in many of my soaps, I just love it.

Yes, I was a bit worried that with this much cocoabutter and so little coconut, that it would be a low sudsing recipe, but glad to find that it worked really well.

Good to hear that your similar recipe worked even with no coconut : )

What was your SF in that recipe? Mine was 3, and is not drying at all, even now when I struggle with my usual dry winterskin. Have been using this soap for a loong time, and it is very long lasting too, which is great.


----------



## CaraBou (Feb 6, 2017)

My superfat was planned at 6% but my recipe notations show a slight overage of avocado so it was probably more like 7.  I made it as one last attempt at a face soap but finally learned my face doesn't take real soap on more than an occasional basis.  I gifted a bar (and several from other batches) to a friend who ultimately raved about this one in particular. I wish I still had it b/c I didn't take notes and don't remember anything particular about the feel or lather.  At this point I'd almost assume nothing stood out as exceptionally good or exceptionally bad. It had 20% shea.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 7, 2017)

MySoapyHeart said:


> Glad to hear it : )
> 
> I wish I could get a hold of those oils, but then I had to pay huge shippingcosts, as these oils are not available to get over the counter (or anywhere else for that matter) here in Norway...



Use what you can get. I do count myself fortunate to be able to get babassu and PKO but I only consider them because of my daughter's skin sensitivities and allergies. Making your recipe without a cleansing oil is doable for me too, to keep things fair. I'd just have to break out the beef tallow since I know it's a cleansing soaping fat for me.


----------



## earlene (Feb 7, 2017)

*MySoapyHeart*, do you mind if I try your recipe? 

I don't sell.  I just want to try it out because you are so happy with it.  

You said you used a water discount.  I was thinking of doing a 33% lye concentration. I know it's not much a water discount, but I want to do some swirls and I still take a long time when I do them.


----------



## MySoapyHeart (Feb 7, 2017)

Arimara said:


> Use what you can get. I do count myself fortunate to be able to get babassu and PKO but I only consider them because of my daughter's skin sensitivities and allergies. Making your recipe without a cleansing oil is doable for me too, to keep things fair. I'd just have to break out the beef tallow since I know it's a cleansing soaping fat for me.



Lucky her, having a sweet and kind mama that can design soap specifically for her. : ) 

I use whatever I can find here, which is coconut, lard, olive, sunflower (HO), and order only avocado oil and cocoa + sheabutter at small amounts when I can, I use them in many of my favourite recipes. I am very happy with the results of my soaps with those oils and butters, so I have nothing to complain about, really! 

Would be fun to at least try palm oil _once _though, just to see how that feels. But paying $50 just for shipping alone - uhm - nope : P




earlene said:


> *MySoapyHeart*, do you mind if I try your recipe?
> 
> I don't sell.  I just want to try it out because you are so happy with it.
> 
> You said you used a water discount.  I was thinking of doing a 33% lye concentration. I know it's not much a water discount, but I want to do some swirls and I still take a long time when I do them.



Of course you can earlene, no worries!

My water discound was not a big one, I didn`t dear to do too much because of the cocoa, I think I did 33% lye concentration too (I don`t have the recipe with me so can`t be 100% sure right now. I don`t trust my brain so late in the evening, almost time for bed)

Btw - If I got so much cocoabutter that I could splurge like this again (as this was gifted to me)  I think I would make the cocoabutter 20% and coconut 10%, just to see how what the difference would be like. 

And I would use sugar too. I didn`t use anything at all, but you would probably get more bubbles with sugar. But I am still very happy with this one even without it.

*Oh, and one last thing:* I never use distilled water. I use De-ionized water, because 1 bottle of destilled water here in Norway is $5 for 16 fl.oz. Available only at the pharmacy.

But I can get 5 liter (135 fl.oz) of De-ionized water for $5. That type of water is so clean you can use it to top of the battery on your car, which can not be topped off with unpure water.

I haven`t withheld any information regarding this recipe, but if there are any questions, just ask, I will be happy to answer any of them.


----------



## MySoapyHeart (Feb 7, 2017)

CaraBou said:


> My superfat was planned at 6% but my recipe notations show a slight overage of avocado so it was probably more like 7.  I made it as one last attempt at a face soap but finally learned my face doesn't take real soap on more than an occasional basis.  I gifted a bar (and several from other batches) to a friend who ultimately raved about this one in particular. I wish I still had it b/c I didn't take notes and don't remember anything particular about the feel or lather.  At this point I'd almost assume nothing stood out as exceptionally good or exceptionally bad. It had 20% shea.



Thanks for that info. 20% shea and avocado oil also sounds like a luxurious recipe!

Notes are super important, I know in the very beginning - even though I was very good at saving the recipes, I didn`t know that it would be wise to write down _details _about the how the soap reacted with fragrances, gelled or not, lather after cure or lather after months of curing etc.

I do those things now, but back then I just didn`t do it. Oh well, a part of the learning curve I guess.


----------

