# I Take It All Back!



## Lindy (Feb 14, 2014)

I take back what I said about preservative in liquid and cream soaps.  I opened up a batch of cream soap that is just over a year old to make some scrubs and there was black mold :shock:  From now on I will be adding preservative in both as I don't trust the liquid soap either now.


----------



## new12soap (Feb 14, 2014)

:shock: :sick:

That would be heartbreaking, I'm sorry that happened to you but thanks for sharing. A whole year of curing a cream soap gone, if ever there was a good argument for using a preservative that would be it!


----------



## Lindy (Feb 14, 2014)

Yup that would be it.  I would rather share my failures than hide them because they are a learning opportunity not just for me, but for others too.... :-|


----------



## clhigh29 (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm still a newbie with cp, but your story reaches even me.  I purchased lab colors and learned I had to get a preservative.  Killed me to wait another two weeks to get it.  Glad now that I did.  Thanks for reenforcing the lesson, however, sorry for your loss


----------



## craftymom0263 (Feb 15, 2014)

What preservative are you adding to your soaps so they don't go bad?


----------



## AnnaMarie (Feb 15, 2014)

Thank you for sharing!  I have not made liquid or cream soap yet  but I imagine I will at some point.  I am glad to learn from the experience of others although it is a shame about your soap...
Cheers!
Anna Marie


----------



## grayceworks (Feb 15, 2014)

So sorry to hear about your cream soap. 

I haven't made any yet (one of my future projects) but I've been reading a lot on the cream soap yahoo group, and they have some great suggestions for preservatives for it -- 

I'm on the fence about using it in liquid soap (I currently use it just in case), since so many have provided compelling arguments about the very high ph providing a hostile environment for yucky stuff in liquid soaps, some having liquid soaps years old that test fine.  

But I'm not sure how that differs in cream soaps either, since it would seem they have just as high a ph? But the reading I've done so far says they need it, whether due to method or ingredients or whatever the case may be, and your example definitely reinforces that! 

It would be interesting to try to identify what kind of mold or bacteria could actually have grown in that medium... Pics?


----------



## Seawolfe (Feb 15, 2014)

Yes thanks for this. Im not up to liquid soap yet, but Id assumed they didn't need preservative. Thanks for correcting that.


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 15, 2014)

I have never had a problem not preserving my liquid soap, but yep I have had a problem with cream soap. Fortunetly it was a small amount I seperated out before preserving the balance just to test and see what would happen. Within 6 months the test amount contained mold. I use liquid germall plus in my cream soap


----------



## Susie (Feb 15, 2014)

I really do use my liquid soap fast enough to not worry.  The longest my batch has lasted was 2 months.  My large laundry soap recipe was split between my house and 2 others.  I will save a bit of it with a date on top and see how long it will last without going bad.  

I had heard about cream soaps going bad fast.  I don't make them for that very reason.  I would rather not use preservatives in my soaps.  I am trying to avoid adding any artificial chemicals, if possible.  

I am really sorry you had that problem.  It would break my heart to open soap I made with TLC, and see that.


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 15, 2014)

Susie said:


> I really do use my liquid soap fast enough to not worry. The longest my batch has lasted was 2 months. My large laundry soap recipe was split between my house and 2 others. I will save a bit of it with a date on top and see how long it will last without going bad.
> 
> I had heard about cream soaps going bad fast. I don't make them for that very reason. I would rather not use preservatives in my soaps. I am trying to avoid adding any artificial chemicals, if possible.
> 
> I am really sorry you had that problem. It would break my heart to open soap I made with TLC, and see that.


 
The ickys that can grow can cause more problems than the teeny tiny amount of preservative it takes to make sure they do not grow in our products.


----------



## Lindy (Feb 15, 2014)

craftymom0263 said:


> What preservative are you adding to your soaps so they don't go bad?



 Regular soap doesn't need a preservative



grayceworks said:


> So sorry to hear about your cream soap.
> 
> I haven't made any yet (one of my future projects) but I've been reading a lot on the cream soap yahoo group, and they have some great suggestions for preservatives for it --
> 
> ...


 
 No pics.  I was on the Cream Soap Forum but they annoyed me too much for me to stay.  I always pooh poohed the preservative needs before, but I now realize that they were right, not just being overly cautious.


----------



## MzMolly65 (Feb 15, 2014)

Question from a newbie.  Is it just cream soaps that require a preservative or liquid as well?  What is it about these soaps that causes the bacteria to grow?


----------



## Lindy (Feb 15, 2014)

Not a rookie question because last week I would have told you neither require a preservative but after this episode I'm going to say they both need it because liquid soap has even more water in it than cream soap.


----------



## Miz Jenny (Feb 15, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I take back what I said about preservative in liquid and cream soaps.  I opened up a batch of cream soap that is just over a year old to make some scrubs and there was black mold :shock:  From now on I will be adding preservative in both as I don't trust the liquid soap either now.



Would this also apply to cp made with yogurt/water?


----------



## grayceworks (Feb 15, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Not a rookie question because last week I would have told you neither require a preservative but after this episode I'm going to say they both need it because liquid soap has even more water in it than cream soap.



I wonder if that's all there is to consider though... 

for example, this info from one of the testing laboratories says that many cleaners have either a low enough or a high enough PH that they don't require preservatives, as the environment doesn't support microbial growth: 

http://www.antimicrobialtestlaboratories.com/Information_About_Preservatives.htm

I have seen others state that liquid soap doesn't need it while cream soap does, so I'm still wondering what other differences would account for that, aside from water content. It is interesting to ponder, and I'd like to find an answer at some point (me and my curiosity! lol)

In the meantime, I err on the safe side.


----------



## Lindy (Feb 16, 2014)

Miz Jenny said:


> Would this also apply to cp made with yogurt/water?


 
*No this only applies to cream and liquid soaps.  CP & HP are fine.*



grayceworks said:


> I wonder if that's all there is to consider though...
> 
> for example, this info from one of the testing laboratories says that many cleaners have either a low enough or a high enough PH that they don't require preservatives, as the environment doesn't support microbial growth:
> 
> ...



*I can tell you I will be erring on the safe side now too.  Even though this is the first batch in over 3 years of making it to develop this problem,  I don't want another...*


----------



## grayceworks (Feb 16, 2014)

Lindy said:


> *I can tell you I will be erring on the safe side now too.  Even though this is the first batch in over 3 years of making it to develop this problem,  I don't want another...*



I wonder what was different in this batch? Do you have other batches from the same time-period? Might be worth the $35 to get a microbial test done and see how they are holding up. It may be a fluke, something atypical that wouldn't normally be a contaminant, since it obviously survives in that PH, and most things don't. I have testing on the brain at the moment, as I'm getting ready to send in a new recipe for testing. lol


----------



## Miz Jenny (Feb 16, 2014)

Lindy said:


> *No this only applies to cream and liquid soaps.  CP & HP are fine.*
> 
> Big Whew! I panicked because I have soaps curing made with 35% cream, milk and yogurt! Thanks for the clarification, Lindy.


----------



## Susie (Feb 16, 2014)

I understand your position, Carolyn.  I really do.  And I would be right there with you on that except for one tiny detail:  I am one of those lucky people that are allergic to the preservative in the contact lens products.  This makes me extremely leery to the thought of adding those products(or similar) to soap I am going to use.  I know that the preservatives are in tiny amounts in soap, but they are in tiny amounts in contact lens solutions also. 

I AM going to downsize my batch amounts, though.  No more large batches or making more before the last is used up.  Or maybe I will freeze the paste and dilute as needed.  Either way, lesson learned.  And proper caution will be taken.


----------



## MidwestSoaper (Feb 17, 2014)

Before making bath and body products I did a lot of research and read extensively.  I learned one very basic rule: _*if water is used to make a product (like lotion, cream, liquid or cream soap, etc); the product needs a preservative*_.  

The nasties that grow cannot at first be seen, smelled, or felt.  A small artisan business or hobbyist does not always have access to the most elegant or effective ingredients and we must use extra care to be certain that we cause no harm to those using our products.  If you don't want to use a preservative, don't formulate a product requiring water.  There are anhydrous alternatives.


----------



## grayceworks (Feb 17, 2014)

It also depends on water activity, whether water is unbound and available for microbial growth, and again PH. But there is no way aside from thorough challenge  testing to be sure a water-continuing product falls within the scope of not requiring  preservative. And that's something that I think many smaller soapers and body-products makers would find cost-prohibitive to do for every liquid or cream sop recipe they design, especially when it is simpler and more fool-proof to add a preservative. I myself am allergic to quite a few things including some preservative ingredients, which is why I got started making my own stuff. There are so many good preservatives now, including ones that are at least naturally derived or approved for use in organic products. Then you also can design your stuff so that you don't need as much preservative by including other factors that discourage microbes and help to prevent contamination, even down to things like the type of packaging. There are so many things to consider. 

I am thinking that at some point, when I am well and truly happy with some of my liquid soap recipes, I may go ahead and get a recipe full-on challenge tested for a year like I've done in the past with my lotions, and see what comes up. 

In the meantime, some good reading from a testing lab, and also an article on preservatives, how to help them be more effective, using hurdles, etc. as well as a bit of info to ponder on making your products hostile to nasties.  

http://www.antimicrobialtestlaboratories.com/Information_About_Preservatives.htm

http://makingskincare.com/preservatives/

PS - I can't use contact lens stuff either.


----------



## new12soap (Feb 17, 2014)

Grayce, where do you do your challenge testing? That link, or another place? If you don't mind my asking...


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 17, 2014)

Susie said:


> I understand your position, Carolyn. I really do. And I would be right there with you on that except for one tiny detail: I am one of those lucky people that are allergic to the preservative in the contact lens products. This makes me extremely leery to the thought of adding those products(or similar) to soap I am going to use. I know that the preservatives are in tiny amounts in soap, but they are in tiny amounts in contact lens solutions also.
> 
> I AM going to downsize my batch amounts, though. No more large batches or making more before the last is used up. Or maybe I will freeze the paste and dilute as needed. Either way, lesson learned. And proper caution will be taken.


 
I fully undstand alleries Susie and they can be a b***h. I have some very severe allergies and an allergic person cannot afford to push their luck if the allergies are severe. I keep my LS paste in paste form and only dilute small amounts of ls which I have never had a problem with. Only the cream soap have caused problems. Only difference I really see with cream soap is it is made with a high percentage of stearic acid and I wonder if that is an issue. Guess I shall be doing some research. 
There is not a thing on this earth that is truly non-allergic. It annoys me when people state they purchase only hypo-allergenic because they have allergies...DUH. Sorry strayed a bit from the topic here


----------



## Lindy (Feb 18, 2014)

Gracyeworks that's an excellent idea. Challenge testing will tell me what is going on.  I have the home kit and I will start there and then move on.  I have other batches of the same age and some that are even older.  As I said this is the first and only batch to develop a problem.


----------



## lady-of-4 (Feb 18, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Gracyeworks that's an excellent idea. Challenge testing will tell me what is going on.  I have the home kit and I will start there and then move on.  I have other batches of the same age and some that are even older.  As I said this is the first and only batch to develop a problem.



Lindy,  I'd been following your thread,  and I'm sorry your cream soap got icky.  Might I ask where you get the home kit from?  Despite my stance on preservatives,  I'd like to know myself if I truly need to use one or not for my recipes.  I do for conditioner and I'm running a small experiment with that.  But I'd considered sending in samples for testing.  Thanks.


----------



## Lindy (Feb 18, 2014)

I got mine from Snowdrift Farms but they are also available from Lotion Crafters...


----------



## lady-of-4 (Feb 18, 2014)

Lindy said:


> I got mine from Snowdrift Farms but they are also available from Lotion Crafters...



I appreciate you sharing.  Thank you.


----------



## Lindy (Feb 18, 2014)

Oh you are most welcome - it is what we do here - share.......


----------



## DavidinTexas (Feb 18, 2014)

Since cream soaps are super fatted ( or super creamed ) and liquid soaps are usually not - would that be a factor?


----------



## grayceworks (Feb 18, 2014)

new12soap said:


> Grayce, where do you do your challenge testing? That link, or another place? If you don't mind my asking...



I've just requested a quote from that place in the link. I used to use a local lab where a friend worked back in AZ when I first started making my own stuff, because she gave me a good price   and those recipes I now pretty much  just do quality control on using the home test kits.

There's lots of little local labs, not even necessarily cosmetics labs, who will check samples for microbes for about $35 - $50 per sample, so I take advantage of that whenever I change an existing recipe, to be sure the change doesn't affect the preservative effectiveness.  

I don't really change often though, because it works, and my customers like it, so I haven't had to deal with more than the home kits for a while...

I can't remember who my former partner used for full-on challenge testing before that, and I don't have any records from that time period... She hung on to those - I do remember she wasted quite a bit of time and money trying to go "all natural" with -and without- some of those supposed natural preservatives. Which is probably why we never got past the local level back then either. Hmm. Sorry, thinking out loud lol.

But I'm comparing quotes on challenge testing with various companies, local here in GA now, and elsewhere,  since I have some new completely different lotion and conditioner recipes that have passed all my home tests, that I'm wanting to finalize, so I may go ahead and ask about liquid and cream soap also. I'll let you know what I find out! 

I use either the lotioncrafters or the makingcosmetics home test kits, depending on who I'm putting an order in with at the time.


----------



## new12soap (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks, Grayce  and yes please let us know


----------



## Lindy (Feb 19, 2014)

I just checked a couple of tubs of Cream Soap from 2011 and they are just fine.....  so weird...


----------



## grayceworks (Feb 19, 2014)

Maybe some weird contaminant got in there that wouldn't normally, from the water used, from the container, airborne? I had one single lotion jar come up with a weird airborne mold after only 2 months  one time that's not even usually found indoors, and it wasn't in any of the bottles of the same batch, just in the new wide-mouth jar with an unlined plastic lid I was trying out. Was the weirdest thing, especially since we live 24 floors up and rarely open the windows. And apparently was resistant to the preservative that keeps all the normal nasties at bay. Never happened again, even when I tested more wide-mouth jars with various lids, and dipping fingers in the jars, so I started disinfecting containers twice after that lol.


----------



## lady-of-4 (Feb 19, 2014)

Random instances of contamination can happen,  even with the best of efforts.  As. Gracyeworks said,  something came in that wasn't even a normal indoor contaminate. Probably got in through the ventilation system. Maybe you can find out exactly what strain of mold it was,  Lindy?


----------



## Lindy (Feb 19, 2014)

Unfortunately I threw it out... LOL


----------

