# Trying the famous shampoo bar recipe - feedback please



## gigisiguenza (Nov 6, 2015)

Since I've been unable to use any of my soaps long term due to them eventually causing drying or skin tightening (some way faster than others), I'm gonna take the suggestion made by several people and try using Genny's shampoo bar recipe as a foundation. It has no CO, which I think may be causing the dryness, so I'm hoping this will help determine if that's the issue. I've added my own tweaks (of course lol). 

Genny's original
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30% - Avocado
10% - Castor
40% - Olive
10% - Shea
10% - Soybean
6%   - SF 
35% Lye Concentration
EOs - Tea Tree, Peppermint, Lavender
1 TBS sugar in lye water
Oils infused with Chamomile

My tweaks
--------------------------
30% - Avocado
5%   - Castor
30% - Olive
20% - Shea
5%   - Neem
10% - Safflower
6%   - SF
33% Lye Concentration (lowered it to comp for shea)
Tea Tree EO & Peppermint FO
Aloe Juice for lye solution (instead of sugar)
Safflower Oil is infused with Chamomile (already have it on hand)
Spinach powder for color 

I'm going to make a really small batch, maybe 1lb, so I can conserve supplies. I decided to boost the shea (more conditioning) and reduce the castor (the aloe should compensate and ensure lather). And I added neem because I've used a tablespoon or two in a hot soak and it helped with the eczema itchies quite a bit. I wish I had more EOs so I could scent it more naturally, but I'm using what I've got. 

I wanted to make this tonight, but I'm too brain fried to focus, so I won't have time to try this until Sunday (assuming the world stays sane and I'm dealing with a crisis on Sunday), but I wanted to run this by you all before I tried it. Please feel free to tell me where it might see a problem. TIA


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## shunt2011 (Nov 6, 2015)

Give it a go.  There's only one way to find out.


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## Obsidian (Nov 6, 2015)

I don't know, I worry that much shea and the small amount of castor will really reduce lather. Castor is great for hair, I'd really suggest you boost it back to 10%


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## KristaMarie (Nov 6, 2015)

Personally, I would up the castor and the neem, it's smelly but I love it in my shampoo bar!


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## Susie (Nov 6, 2015)

Gigi-go back to basics on this.  No scent other than neem.  Eliminate any potential problems before you add to the issue.  That way, if/when you add something that causes a problem, you know exactly what it is.


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## penelopejane (Nov 6, 2015)

Gigi, 
I think you are using it for your skin not hair - not that it matters much!

I really think Susie is right with this recipe. 

If you have eczema leave out the EOs to start. My DH can't have any fragrance (including butters etc that have natural fragrance).

I tried to tweak this recipe and it didn't work so well. So then I tried just keeping the same % and substituting almond (or camellia) oil for the avocado and one recipe worked and the other is spongy. 

It seems to be a particularly tricky recipe or it could just be me or those DSGs (Dreaded Soap Gremlins).

Please let us know how you go.


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## Obsidian (Nov 6, 2015)

Duh, if you are using this for body then it should be good the way you reformulated.


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 6, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> I don't know, I worry that much shea and the small amount of castor will really reduce lather. Castor is great for hair, I'd really suggest you boost it back to 10%



Obsidian I'm going to be using it for a body bar, not shampoo bar, but I am rethinking the reduced castor now that I've slept and can think LOL


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 6, 2015)

Susie said:


> Gigi-go back to basics on this.  No scent other than neem.  Eliminate any potential problems before you add to the issue.  That way, if/when you add something that causes a problem, you know exactly what it is.



Good idea Susie. It's such a teeny batch that I won't be stuck with lots of unscented bars, so I'll do the unscented.


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## Misschief (Nov 6, 2015)

I'm doing this one along with you, Gigi. I couldn't face going to work today so I stayed home and made a small (6 oz) batch in my mini bars mold.

I substituted the soy oil for sunflower and added a tiny bit of patchouli. I know, for me, patchouli is a safe e.o. so I felt fine adding it. Now, I have to wait to try it - that's the hardest part!


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 6, 2015)

Misschief said:


> I'm doing this one along with you, Gigi. I couldn't face going to work today so I stayed home and made a small (6 oz) batch in my mini bars mold.
> 
> I substituted the soy oil for sunflower and added a tiny bit of patchouli. I know, for me, patchouli is a safe e.o. so I felt fine adding it. Now, I have to wait to try it - that's the hardest part!



6oz? Hmmm I hadn't thought about doing one small enough for 2 bars only. That's a great idea. And yes, tea tree EO seems safe for me to use. I've put it into my hit soak and had no issues, so I'll try it on micro batch 2. I hope to make the micro batches on Sunday. Like you, I'm not sure how I'm going to wait for them to be ready


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## IrishLass (Nov 6, 2015)

If you're going to make micro-batches, make sure you have the appropriate scale, i.e., one that can weigh accurately as low as .01g/.0005oz. I sometimes make micro-batches as small as 8 oz., but I'd never attempt it without my ultra sensitive Jenning's scale that can weigh as low as .01g./.0005oz 

If you have a scale like that, wonderful, but for those that don't, the following info is for you: With batches smaller than 1 lb., the lye weight becomes very critical. At lower than a lb. batch weights, if the lye weight is off by even a fraction of a gram, you could either end up with a lye heavy batch or a more highly superfatted batch, depending on which direction the measurement is off. 


IrishLass


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## Dahila (Nov 6, 2015)

Dryness, very often caused by deficiency of VA and E and not drinking enough water.  I have the problem too.  I use my mild soaps and my lotion which takes care of that, mostly.  I started to lower CO and add the lard, if you do not feel turned off by lard try it, please.  
Oh coffee does not count as drink so does tea, )


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 6, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> If you're going to make micro-batches, make sure you have the appropriate scale, i.e., one that can weigh accurately as low as .01g/.0005oz. I sometimes make micro-batches as small as 8 oz., but I'd never attempt it without my ultra sensitive Jenning's scale that can weigh as low as .01g./.0005oz
> 
> If you have a scale like that, wonderful, but for those that don't, the following info is for you: With batches smaller than 1 lb., the lye weight becomes very critical. At lower than a lb. batch weights, if the lye weight is off by even a fraction of a gram, you could either end up with a lye heavy batch or a more highly superfatted batch, depending on which direction the measurement is off.
> 
> ...



I didn't think of that, TY. I have a small digital scale designed for weighing small amounts of fine particles like clays (yet another craft thing that has yielded crossover tools lol). I think it will work as it measures to .01 decimal point.


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 6, 2015)

oldad said:


> Welcome to the Soap Making Forum! We're always looking for ways to improve our site, so feel free to post any comments or suggestions you may have here.


I do use lard, and in one of the variations I'm planning a micro batch of, I will be subbing lard for OO. We will see which of the multiple micro batches is best


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## Misschief (Nov 6, 2015)

Both my recipe and my scale are in .01 ounces. I'm very cautious and slow in my measuring... I still remember my Chem classes.... not fondly but I do remember.

I will take all the advice I can get, though.


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## penelopejane (Nov 6, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> If you're going to make micro-batches, make sure you have the appropriate scale, i.e., one that can weigh accurately as low as .01g/.0005oz. I sometimes make micro-batches as small as 8 oz., but I'd never attempt it without my ultra sensitive Jenning's scale that can weigh as low as .01g./.0005oz
> 
> If you have a scale like that, wonderful, but for those that don't, the following info is for you: With batches smaller than 1 lb., the lye weight becomes very critical. At lower than a lb. batch weights, if the lye weight is off by even a fraction of a gram, you could either end up with a lye heavy batch or a more highly superfatted batch, depending on which direction the measurement is off.
> 
> ...



Irish Lass what would be the resulting soap if you miss-measured?

I have a 500g batch of this recipe which is 3 days old and is spongy.  I put it in a 100*F oven and turned the oven off as soon as it was made but it hasn't dried at all.  It is not oily.  
Would this be because I didn't measure accurately?
Or is there another reason it didn't work?

I made another 500g batch of this recipe on the same day, same size and it is fine.


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## yinepu (Nov 7, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> If you're going to make micro-batches, make sure you have the appropriate scale, i.e., one that can weigh accurately as low as .01g/.0005oz. I sometimes make micro-batches as small as 8 oz., but I'd never attempt it without my ultra sensitive Jenning's scale that can weigh as low as .01g./.0005oz
> 
> 
> IrishLass



I've been looking for a super sensitive scale. Which model number is that one?


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## houseofwool (Nov 7, 2015)

Misschief said:


> Both my recipe and my scale are in .01 ounces. I'm very cautious and slow in my measuring... I still remember my Chem classes.... not fondly but I do remember.
> 
> 
> 
> I will take all the advice I can get, though.




.01 oz is a fairly normal accuracy. If you are making batches under a pound, it really does need to be .01 grams. 

I used to have one for dying wool. Try a head shop or Amazon.


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## IrishLass (Nov 7, 2015)

penelopejane said:


> Irish Lass what would be the resulting soap if you miss-measured?
> 
> I have a 500g batch of this recipe which is 3 days old and is spongy. I put it in a 100*F oven and turned the oven off as soon as it was made but it hasn't dried at all. It is not oily.
> Would this be because I didn't measure accurately?
> ...


 
Every scale comes with a -+ margin for error (usually -+ .2g or something like that). A 500g or a 1lb. batch is fine to make with a digital scale that can weigh down to 1g. The margin for error with such a scale in such batches is usually not critical enough to make any huge differences in the outcome of your finished soap (unless your scale is wonky), but with batches much smaller than 500g, the margin for error with such a scale grows very narrow indeed. 

For example, a 1 gram discrepancy in a 4000g batch with the above type of scale may not be much of anything to write home about, but a 1g discrepancy in 100g batch on such a scale (depending on which way the discrepancy goes) is able to give you a soap with either a negative 1% super-fat or a positive 17% superfat. That's how critical things can get, and that's why a much more sensitive scale is highly recommended for small batches. It will widen up the margin of error to the point that it's not so critical anymore.

Here is a great post by DeeAnna that expounds more on this issue:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=382780&postcount=16

Also- the smaller the batch, the harder it is to gel. 

I can't say for sure why your batch is spongy. While it's possible that it could be from a weight discrepancy, it could also be because it did not go through complete gel, or maybe it's from one of your additives (such as too much sugar, etc..), or maybe from your oil combination. What did you use in your recipe?




			
				yinepu said:
			
		

> I've been looking for a super sensitive scale. Which model number is that one?


 
I bought mine from Lotioncrafter's (it's a Jennings- JSR 200), but you can buy it cheaper here: http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/jennings-jsr-200.html



IrishLass


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## gigisiguenza (Nov 7, 2015)

houseofwool said:


> .01 oz is a fairly normal accuracy. If you are making batches under a pound, it really does need to be .01 grams.
> 
> I used to have one for dying wool. Try a head shop or Amazon.



That's where I found mine LOL a local head shop


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## penelopejane (Nov 8, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> I can't say for sure why your batch is spongy. While it's possible that it could be from a weight discrepancy, it could also be because it did not go through complete gel, or maybe it's from one of your additives (such as too much sugar, etc..), or maybe from your oil combination. What did you use in your recipe?
> 
> IrishLass



I used: 
30% - Almond oil in one (1) camellia oil in the other. (2) 
10% - Castor
40% - Olive
10% - Shea
10% - Ricebran
6%   - SF 
25% Lye Concentration

The lye concentration was a mistake as it reverted to default. 

I made 2x 500g batches at the same time. Mixed a master batch of lye.. One had BB winter gardenia (1) the other BB champagne. (2) both had a few drops of green liquid pigment (1) in the top swirl (2) in the base. 

I wrapped both in a wooden blanket and put in 100*F oven and turned it off. 
(1) (Almond/winter gardenia/plain base w green swirl) great - gelled all the way through, hard soap. This was in a plastic mold I've used before. 
(2) (camellia/champagne/green base) is semi translucent all the way through, very soft and spongy but consistent all the way through 4 days later. This was in a plastic Chinese food container I haven't used before (accident with my mold at the start of the pour). 

I just can't see where I went wrong since one is fine and the other is weird.


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## IrishLass (Nov 8, 2015)

Hi PJ!

If you look at the fatty acid profile of your recipe on SoapCalc and compare the formula with almond to the formula with the camellia, it will all become clear.....

If you look down the line of the fatty acid profile, you'll see that everything looks pretty comparable all the way down the line until you get to the oleic % and the linolenic %. 

The formula made with almond has 58% oleic and 1% linolenic content, while the soap made with camellia lost 14% from the oleic and gave it all over to the linolenic. 

High levels of linolenic (and/or also linoleic) make for a comparatively softer soap than other soaps made with higher levels of oleic or stearic or palmitic, etc... Most recipes usually have no more than 1 or 2% linolenic in them, and it's oftentimes not uncommon to have 0% linolenic. When you combine the fact that you have 14% linolenic in your camellia formula, along with the 15% linoleic that you also have in the same formula, it becomes clear why your camellia version is softer than the almond version. The camellia version has a double-whammy of the soft fatty acids than the almond version.

 HTH!
IrishLass


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## penelopejane (Nov 8, 2015)

Oh wow thank you so much I didn't notice that! 
What a difference. 

I've used 10% camellia before will go back and look at those soaps and read my notes on them too. 

I'm going to give up on camellia oil now that I've found avocado oil at a sensible price. (Up until now avocado oil I have found has been $40 per litre (2 pints) to buy here)

I am so pleased there is a reason for this  (other than soap gremlins which isn't very scientific) I have been going around in circles trying to work it out.  
Thank you.


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## yinepu (Nov 8, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> I bought mine from Lotioncrafter's (it's a Jennings- JSR 200), but you can buy it cheaper here: http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/jennings-jsr-200.html
> 
> 
> 
> IrishLass



thank you!


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## penelopejane (Nov 9, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Hi PJ!
> 
> High levels of linolenic (and/or also linoleic) make for a comparatively softer soap than other soaps made with higher levels of oleic or stearic or palmitic, etc... Most recipes usually have no more than 1 or 2% linolenic in them, and it's oftentimes not uncommon to have 0% linolenic. When you combine the fact that you have 14% linolenic in your camellia formula, along with the 15% linoleic that you also have in the same formula, it becomes clear why your camellia version is softer than the almond version. The camellia version has a double-whammy of the soft fatty acids than the almond version.
> 
> ...



Irish Lass, 

I thought I would let you know that I checked each soap in which I had used Camellia oil and even at 10% it has effected the final soap.  Each soap was one that didn't pour well or didn't cure properly or took ages to cure and is still slightly soft.  Not sure the camellia oil was always responsible - it could be my poor soaping.  I have used a few of the finished soaps and they seem ok but nothing extraordinary.   

Thank you very much, Irish Lass.  I did look at all the oil specifications but didn't pick up on the linolenic in Camellia and can now see how important it is. 

Not quite sure what to do with the 500ml of Camellia oil I have left


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## Susie (Nov 9, 2015)

You could use it, just in smaller amounts.  Or use it in leave on products, such as lip balm or body butter.


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## shunt2011 (Nov 9, 2015)

I agree with Susie, I would save it for a body butter, lip balm or sugar scrub.


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## penelopejane (Nov 9, 2015)

Susie said:


> You could use it, just in smaller amounts.  Or use it in leave on products, such as lip balm or body butter.






shunt2011 said:


> I agree with Susie, I would save it for a body butter, lip balm or sugar scrub.




Thanks Susie and shunt I foresee some more research in my future.


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## penelopejane (Nov 10, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Hi PJ!
> 
> If you look at the fatty acid profile of your recipe on SoapCalc and compare the formula with almond to the formula with the camellia, it will all become clear.....
> 
> ...



Irish lass, 
Sorry to take over this thread but I would like to clarify this. 
Were you looking at Camellia Oil, Tea seed or Camelina Seed Oil on soap calc?  Camellia Oil and Almond oil linoleic and linolenic levels appear pretty similar to me, maybe Almond oil is even a bit worse? 

There is definitely something iffy about Camellia Oil as all my soaps using it have "failed" just not sure of the reason?


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## IrishLass (Nov 10, 2015)

penelopejane said:


> Irish lass,
> Sorry to take over this thread but I would like to clarify this.
> Were you looking at Camellia Oil, Tea seed or Camelina Seed Oil on soap calc? Camellia Oil and Almond oil linoleic and linolenic levels appear pretty similar to me, maybe Almond oil is even a bit worse?
> 
> There is definitely something iffy about Camellia Oil as all my soaps using it have "failed" just not sure of the reason?


 
Good catch there, PJ! Turns out I actually typed in Camelina Seed Oil (with the 'n'), wouldn't you know it. The word 'Tea' after Camellia threw me off. Since I'm not familiar with Camellia seed oil, and since you didn't use the word 'tea' in your post, I just clicked on the oil above it instead, which my eyes (falsely) read as being plain old Camellia Seed Oil without the 'tea', but on deeper glance just now, I see the 'n' in there and realize now how much I screwed up. 

Well, shoot..... that completely throws a wrench in my original theory, doesn't it?! lol

Hmmmmm....... did your soap with the camellia oil gel completely?


IrishLass


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## penelopejane (Nov 10, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Good catch there, PJ! Turns out I actually typed in Camelina Seed Oil (with the 'n'), wouldn't you know it. The word 'Tea' after Camellia threw me off. Since I'm not familiar with Camellia seed oil, and since you didn't use the word 'tea' in your post, I just clicked on the oil above it instead, which my eyes (falsely) read as being plain old Camellia Seed Oil without the 'tea', but on deeper glance just now, I see the 'n' in there and realize now how much I screwed up.
> 
> Well, shoot..... that completely throws a wrench in my original theory, doesn't it?! lol
> 
> ...



Yes it did gel completely - it is the same consistency all the way through - it is soft and spongy. It is sort of translucent.  It is 7 days old now.  

It is such a pity, and there must be something in Camellia oil that isn't showing in soap calc (or maybe just in my Camellia oil - although it is from a top supplier here) because everything you said makes perfect sense.  

Each of my recipes using camellia oil (10%) was soft and spongy and took ages to cure.  This one is the only one I've put 30% camellia oil in and it is displaying the same symptoms as the others but worse!  

So strange.  Don't worry too much.  I think I will use the last remaining bit I have one a lotion or balm (when I get good enough to branch out from soap) and revert to tried and tested avocado oil.  I've now found a good, cheap supplier for avocado oil so that is great.

Here is a photo.

I am so sorry to butt into the Shampoo soap thread but this is what happens when you play around with recipes!


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