# Rancid soap??



## Jen74 (Jun 7, 2021)

Hey everyone,

So I have been making my own soap now for about a year. I use just a few basic ingredients because my skin is Severely sensitive and I react to many things. I got it down to palm oil, palm kernel oil, lye, and  water and I use the soap Calc. Those are my ingredients and they work well for me. Last year I noticed my soaps were getting rancid rather quickly and could not figure out why. I switched to making hot process soap and that seemed to help. I also started using a smal fan to blow on them while they are curing over the 4 to 6 weeks. Well everything was going great, no more rancid soap.  Well now here in Chicago it is spring and the humidity is up. Well all my soap that I just made a couple months ago went rancid! The only thing that is different is that it seems like in the winter, the soap has no issues( it is also very dry in the house). What can I do to prevent this? I bought a small table top dehumidifier which I will get tomorrow. I am thinking maybe if I place this dehumidifier in the area where I cure the soaps this can help? We have the AC on as well on hot humid days. Should I also use a fan on the soaps along with the dehumidifier? I am at a loss and not sure what to do. I mean I lost like a whole batch of soap because it smells kind of rancid( that old oil smell). I do not think it is safe to use rancid soap right?  Any suggestions? Does anyone else use a dehumidifier? Does this prevent soap going rancid?


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## Johnez (Jun 7, 2021)

In addition to humidity there's also the possibility that one of your oils is rancid or that some metal other than stainless steel came in contact with your soap.


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## Jen74 (Jun 7, 2021)

Johnez said:


> In addition to humidity there's also the possibility that one of your oils is rancid or that some metal other than stainless steel came in contact with your soap.



No stainless steel touched it that I know of. The oil smelled okay that we used. In fact we still have some, it smells fine. We have been using a crock pot that is ceramic inside. Never had an issue before with it.


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## Johnez (Jun 7, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> No stainless steel touched it that I know of. The oil smelled okay that we used. In fact we still have some, it smells fine. We have been using a crock pot that is ceramic inside. Never had an issue before with it.


Stainless steel is ok, it won't react with lye. Other metals will react with lye though.


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## Jen74 (Jun 7, 2021)

Johnez said:


> Stainless steel is ok, it won't react with lye. Other metals will react with lye though.



I basically use silicone spoon to stir and my crock pot I cook it  in is ceramic.  The molds I use are also silicone. When curing I use a plastic table to set them on. I keep them in my living room/kitchen. Our house is not too big so I try and keep it in the driest place. I do not want to keep it the bedroom as the bathroom is in there and I worry about the humidity. Would the small dehumidifier prevent them going rancid?


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 7, 2021)

Hi @Jen74,
I'm sorry for you and all your issues (and your soaps that went bad).
For a first, be happy that you found a recipe that your body doesn't reject! Funny enough, From a technical soapmaking perspective, it is fortunate that it's of all the “boring base oils” PO and PKO that work for you. Odd that these give you rancidity issues, since they're among the most robust oils of all, and for these reasons used for deep-frying, baking etc., and have a long shelf life to begin with.

You have already addressed some “external” factors like kick-starting curing (fan, dehumidifier, AC), but I suspect there are still “internal” things annoying you. @Johnez pointed on contact with metals, which is important to avoid. Chelators (citrate, EDTA etc.) are powerful agents to avoid “invisible” metal contact (soluble contaminations), and prove as valuable helpers in fight against rancidity. Read up backgrounds and avoiding of rancidity here: Rancidity and DOS | Soapy Stuff
You cannot (and don't need to) get your soaps totally dry. A bit of water is bound very strongly to the natural glycerol. But water is not the main reason for a soap to go rancid. Just like oils can go bad without water, soaps can as well. Protection of the oils is first priority.

Another point is the recipe itself. High-PO soaps aren't very common, since they are very hard and difficult to get any lather off. A bit of PKO will make things only a bit better. What is your lye concentration? What is your superfat? High superfat is a major culprit: free fats/fatty acids foster rancidity.

Another common reason for rancid soap is that the _oils themselves_ had gone bad when you used them. Check your batches, and replace them when in question. Rancid oils make rancid soap.


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## Jen74 (Jun 7, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Hi @Jen74,
> I'm sorry for you and all your issues (and your soaps that went bad).
> For a first, be happy that you found a recipe that your body doesn't reject! Funny enough, From a technical soapmaking perspective, it is fortunate that it's of all the “boring base oils” PO and PKO that work for you. Odd that these give you rancidity issues, since they're among the most robust oils of all, and for these reasons used for deep-frying, baking etc., and have a long shelf life to begin with.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the reply. I definitely did not use any metal. I cook mine in a ceramic crock pot, use silicone spoons for stiring and silicone molds. This is the recipe I use from SoapCalc: 9.18 ounces of water, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel Oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil, 4.52 ounces of lye and 1.6 ounces of Glycerin.  What is weird is that I made several batches during the winter that did fine.  It seems like when the warmer weather hits, this happens, I even have my AC on most days too when it is hot or humid.. So strange. The oil I used smells okay.  Do you have any suggestions? I have not used any additives like EDTA because I am so sensitive to stuff that I try and stay with as little ingredients as possible. Any suggestions?


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 7, 2021)

That's 33% lye concentation at 5% superfat, with 20% lauric oil, prepared as HP. An absolutely common recipe, except for the extra glycerol, which makes sense to make the final soap bars somewhat easier soluble. Provided that the oils are of decent quality, this should have negligible chances of rancidity, FWIW. The apparent influence of weather just makes it stranger.

But that means that I have little to offer, from the distance, I'm afraid. You could give sodium citrate a chance as a chelator, citrates are very mild (contained in many foods, and a regular metabolism intermediate anyway). You could reduce glycerol a bit and/or swap it for sorbitol or plain table sugar, which makes the soap less keen to pull air moisture, still increase solubility. I guess you are using distilled water for everything?


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## amd (Jun 7, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> I got it down to palm oil, palm kernel oil, lye, and water and I use the soap Calc.


What water do you use? Is it bottled water or from the tap? If bottled water, is it distilled, spring, or drinking water? If from the tap, do you have a water treatment system?

My first soaps that I made, even though I knew better, I used tap water just to make sure. All of those first two batches developed DOS within weeks of curing. I switched to distilled water - spring or drinking water is about the same as tap - and it hasn't been a problem.


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## Jen74 (Jun 7, 2021)

amd said:


> What water do you use? Is it bottled water or from the tap? If bottled water, is it distilled, spring, or drinking water? If from the tap, do you have a water treatment system?
> 
> My first soaps that I made, even though I knew better, I used tap water just to make sure. All of those first two batches developed DOS within weeks of curing. I switched to distilled water - spring or drinking water is about the same as tap - and it hasn't been a problem.



I use distilled water


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## lenarenee (Jun 7, 2021)

Interesting. The recipe comes out to about 9 for the linolenic and linoleic. (guessing coconut was 20%)

Is the soap curing in a dark place?

 Has it been humid enough that you’ve noticed beads of moisture on the soap? That Can bring particles to the soap.

I wonder if lowering the super fat to 2 or 3 will help. You’ll have less free oil in the soap.

Some people think that storing bars in muslin bags helps a lot. So maybe let the soap cure for 4 weeks, then store in muslin, but keep in a dark, dry place with ventilation.


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## Jen74 (Jun 7, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> Interesting. The recipe comes out to about 9 for the linolenic and linoleic. (guessing coconut was 20%)
> 
> Is the soap curing in a dark place?
> 
> ...




Thanks for the reply. I actually don't use any coconut oil( I'm allergic). I just use palm oil, palm kernel oil, a tiny bit of glycerin,  lye and water. How would I go about lowering the superfat ( palm oil) without messing up the ratio with the other ingredients? Sorry, I'm just a bit new to this.


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## lenarenee (Jun 7, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I actually don't use any coconut oil( I'm allergic). I just use palm oil, palm kernel oil, a tiny bit of glycerin,  lye and water. How would I go about lowering the superfat ( palm oil) without messing up the ratio with the other ingredients? Sorry, I'm just a bit new to this.



Sorry, that was supposed to be pko, not coconut. It was pko oil I entered into soap calculator.

Did you use a soap calculator for this recipe?  There should be a box where it asks for a super fat percentage. Which calc are you using?  And if this is a printed recipe from someone and you haven’t checked it with a calculator then we may have found the problem….aka their numbers are off and you have a higher super fat than they stated.

Oh, and do you know how pure your lye is? Is it food grade or hardware store grade? That can relate to super fat level or contaminant.


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> Sorry, that was supposed to be pko, not coconut. It was pko oil I entered into soap calculator.
> 
> Did you use a soap calculator for this recipe?  There should be a box where it asks for a super fat percentage. Which calc are you using?  And if this is a printed recipe from someone and you haven’t checked it with a calculator then we may have found the problem….aka their numbers are off and you have a higher super fat than they stated.
> 
> Oh, and do you know how pure your lye is? Is it food grade or hardware store grade? That can relate to super fat level or contaminant.




I went through SoapCalc actually.  The lye is get is food grade 100% sodium Hydroxide( Lye) and I order it online through Belle Chemical. I just wish I could figure this out. I just purchased a table top dehumidifier to see if placing that in the area will help. I am so at a loss and it is frustrating because this is the one soap I can use without having a reaction... So odd how it was fine all winter and now with the warmer weather it is giving me this issue. Our house is odd so not many rooms I can put it in to cure, so I use the kitchen/living room. I wonder if because we were painting the room a couple weeks ago and I had to move the soap for a few hours, could that have did it? I just cannot figure this out. I literally have a fan blowing on the  soaps while they are curing constantly. This seemed to help all winter( at least I never had any soap go rancid). My one batch that went rancid I literally made like just 4 weeks ago almost so it was not even done curing( I cure mine for at least 6 weeks usually). I leave them out too so they have airflow even after they are cured. Not sure what to do.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 8, 2021)

On top of this, a similar soap I made some time ago (but sans added glycerol) went rock hard within a mere day.

Just for fun (and to add some positive perspective), you could grate up a bit of your soap and stir it into the same weight of glycerol. Leave it a day or two, and then heat it up in the microwave or a water bath. It'll melt, turn transparent, and become glycerin soap (melt&pour base). That won't overcome rancidity, nor will it speed up drying/prevent sweating (rather the opposite). But at least the soap is doing something creative for you, not just constantly reminds you of weird/annoying things going on in your house.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 8, 2021)

As far as metal contamination, please understand you aren't 100% in control of that. The harvesting and processing of fats requires machinery and equipment that is metal. Dust and air pollution and other random contamination can also add metal to the soap.


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## Becky1024 (Jun 8, 2021)

Can you post a picture of your rancid soap? It may help us figure out what is going on.

Also, how fast does your spring soap turn rancid? 

I take it from your list of ingredients that you do not add any scent, colorant or other additives. Can you confirm that?


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## earlene (Jun 8, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> So I have been making my own soap now for about a year. I use just a few basic ingredients because my skin is Severely sensitive and I react to many things. I got it down to palm oil, palm kernel oil, lye, and  water and I use the soap Calc. Those are my ingredients and they work well for me. Last year I noticed my soaps were getting rancid rather quickly and could not figure out why. I switched to making hot process soap and that seemed to help. I also started using a smal fan to blow on them while they are curing over the 4 to 6 weeks. Well everything was going great, no more rancid soap.  Well now here in Chicago it is spring and the humidity is up. Well all my soap that I just made a couple months ago went rancid! The only thing that is different is that it seems like in the winter, the soap has no issues( it is also very dry in the house). What can I do to prevent this? I bought a small table top dehumidifier which I will get tomorrow. I am thinking maybe if I place this dehumidifier in the area where I cure the soaps this can help? We have the AC on as well on hot humid days. Should I also use a fan on the soaps along with the dehumidifier? I am at a loss and not sure what to do. I mean I lost like a whole batch of soap because it smells kind of rancid( that old oil smell). I do not think it is safe to use rancid soap right?  Any suggestions? Does anyone else use a dehumidifier? Does this prevent soap going rancid?


Palm Oil and PKO should not start out rancid, so I would not suspect the oils, particularly if bought not too far in advance of making the soap.  But I suppose in the right conditions, they could be rancid to start.  I've just not had that happen.

Even though I would probably feel safe using both without an antioxidant, I'd still probably use ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin) and you can add Citric Acid for reduction of soap scum instead of EDTA.  Or not.  But the ROE does help prevent rancidity.

To address this question:  _I do not think it is safe to use rancid soap right?_  Yes, it is safe to use soap that has some rancidity.  BUT you may not like to use it because of the smell.  So if it's only a little rancid (a couple of spots here and there), you can cut them out and still use the soap.  If it's widespread (throughout the entire bar), then the smell will be so strong you won't even want it in the house, that's when I would just toss it out and make new soap.  But for a small DOS spot here and there, I'd cut them out, and do my best to keep the soap from developing more DOS.

Is there any sunshine in the room where you cure?  Are your window curtains drawn at all times during the cure?  Or does the sun shine into the room during the daylight hours?  Sunshine is an enemy of curing soap.

I also live in hot & humid Illinois, so I get what you are experiencing, although I have not made soap with only that formula to compare to your exact experience.  But hot humid conditions, yes.  Even with the AC on in my house, the room where I cure gets hotter and curing soap only adds to the humidity in that room, because it IS releasing moisture into the air itself as it cures.  So I keep a fan on at all times up there in the humid months.

Others do use portable dehumidifiers, but I have no desire to lug around a full bin of water to another room where I can empty it out every single day.  We have one of those in my husband's basement office, and I hate emptying it even though there is a floor drain in the adjacent room.  It gets heavy; it is cumbersome; it fills up in less than 24 hours, meaning it needs emptying every single day to be of any use to pull moisture from the air.  I find a fan to be more convenient.

A couple of other suggestions:

Try a lower SF for your next soap.  Maybe 2 or 3% SF and absolutely add ROE to the soap as an antioxidant.  I would probably try at least one ZERO percent SF with a test batch as well.  And then keep an eye on them; keep them away from any area that has sunshine coming in.

Test your lye purity.  It is likely that your 100% pure lye has deteriorated in purity, by being exposed to the air (when opening the container), especially if the cap is left off for longer periods of time in the presence of high humidity.  How to test for purity: NaOH or KOH purity check | Soapy Stuff

Alter your lye storage method to increase the life of the lye and decrease the likelihood of introducing moisture into the containers via ambient moisture in the air.  This is how I store my lye as another member here at SMF once posted: My lye storage setup

ETA:  I see you added glycerin to your formula.  THAT is drawing moisture to the bar.  I suggest leaving it out in the next couple of batches and seeing if that helps.  It might be that your skin likes the extra glycerin in the winter, but perhaps you might need to adjust the formula for the Hot and Humid months to no-added glycerin.  Soap has glycerin already without adding any extra.


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## The_Phoenix (Jun 8, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> I leave them out too so they have airflow even after they are cured.


When you say you "leave them out," what do you mean by that? Are they near any windows? In my opinion, the kitchen/living room is not an ideal spot to cure soap. The soap is exposed to every day air and activity. My hunch is that your curing location is most likely the culprit.

I cure my soaps in a closet under our staircase, resting on wooden shoe racks, lots of room to breathe, and they never see the light of day.


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## earlene (Jun 8, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> I went through SoapCalc actually.  The lye is get is food grade 100% sodium Hydroxide( Lye) and I order it online through Belle Chemical. I just wish I could figure this out. I just purchased a table top dehumidifier to see if placing that in the area will help. I am so at a loss and it is frustrating because this is the one soap I can use without having a reaction... So odd how it was fine all winter and now with the warmer weather it is giving me this issue. Our house is odd so not many rooms I can put it in to cure, so I use the kitchen/living room. I wonder if because we were painting the room a couple weeks ago and I had to move the soap for a few hours, could that have did it? I just cannot figure this out. I literally have a fan blowing on the  soaps while they are curing constantly. This seemed to help all winter( at least I never had any soap go rancid). My one batch that went rancid I literally made like just 4 weeks ago almost so it was not even done curing( I cure mine for at least 6 weeks usually). I leave them out too so they have airflow even after they are cured. Not sure what to do.


Re: could they have gone rancid because you moved them for a couple of hours, really depends more on the specific conditions than the amount of time.

When you do cure them do you use Metal racks or exposure to other possible contaminants?  Even bare hands can transfer contaminants to soap during handling.

I would not cure in a kitchen, no matter how big my kitchen is because of heat fluctuations, oils from cooking, possible confusion of soap with food (my husband once said grated yellow soap looked like grated cheddar and that he was tempted to grab a taste.)  Plus my kitchen has a window that I will never shade, and sunshine on curing soap is not beneficial to the soap.

And if your kitchen/living room is an open-floor plan type of setting, then I wouldn't want to cure the soap in that environment, either.

How one uses a living room is dependant on one's personal choices.  Our living room and every living room in every house I have ever lived in has too many windows and too much activity for curing soap. I prefer to cure soap in an area without a lot of activity, in a dark space without access by visitors, pets (we only have a cat, but cat hairs on soap is not desirable), dust, etc.


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

Becky1024 said:


> Can you post a picture of your rancid soap? It may help us figure out what is going on.
> 
> Also, how fast does your spring soap turn rancid?
> 
> I take it from your list of ingredients that you do not add any scent, colorant or other additives. Can you confirm that?



This is the soap. It seems like it turned rancid probably about two weeks into curing is my guess. At least that is what was happening last spring and summer. I attached a picture below. I do not add any scents or additives.


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

earlene said:


> Re: could they have gone rancid because you moved them for a couple of hours, really depends more on the specific conditions than the amount of time.
> 
> When you do cure them do you use Metal racks or exposure to other possible contaminants?  Even bare hands can transfer contaminants to soap during handling.
> 
> ...




I agree, just not sure where to cure it our bedroom has the shower we use so that probably wouldn't be ideal because of moisture. The basement probably has more moisture than the rest of the house too. I have a closet in our bedroom, but again, the shower is in the bedroom. We have a closet in our basement under the stairs, but again probably not ideal being in the basement. Not sure where to cure them.


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## The_Phoenix (Jun 8, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> I agree, just not sure where to cure it our bedroom has the shower we use so that probably wouldn't be ideal because of moisture. The basement probably has more moisture than the rest of the house too. I have a closet in our bedroom, but again, the shower is in the bedroom. We have a closet in our basement under the stairs, but again probably not ideal being in the basement. Not sure where to cure them.


Your bedroom closet is much more suitable as a curing location. Even if you shower once a day (or twice for the two of you--though if you shower less than that, no judgement here), that's fine. Do you usually leave your closet door closed? Looking at the photo of your soap, I can see that it's located near bright light. No need to have a fan directly on them. They will cure just fine without constant air movement.


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

The_Phoenix said:


> Your bedroom closet is much more suitable as a curing location. Even if you shower once a day (or twice for the two of you--though if you shower less than that, no judgement here), that's fine. Do you usually leave your closet door closed? Looking at the photo of your soap, I can see that it's located near bright light. No need to have a fan directly on them. They will cure just fine without constant air movement.
> [/QUO
> 
> Thanks. I guess I can give it a try in the bedroom closet. Maybe I Will place the small dehumidifier in there with the soaps. Should I keep the closet door shut? Also should I keep them up high or lower or does it matter?


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## The_Phoenix (Jun 8, 2021)

One other thought. I'm reading between the lines here so forgive me if I misread you. I saw you mention that you "superfat" with palm oil. Did I read you correct in that you use the cold process method? If that is the case, you cannot choose which fat you use as a superfat. Cold process soap does that all on its own.

Also, do you use a soap calculator to determine your recipes? I noticed that your soap has a very chunky soft texture. That tells me that you definitely have a higher superfat %. High superfat could easily cause a soap to become rancid more quickly.


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## The_Phoenix (Jun 8, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Thanks. I guess I can give it a try in the bedroom closet. Maybe I Will place the small dehumidifier in there with the soaps. Should I keep the closet door shut? Also should I keep them up high or lower or does it matter?


For a small batch of soap. the humidifier isn't completely necessary but it wouldn't hurt. I would keep the soap higher up to be sure it doesn't get dirty somehow. I did want to mention that I have several hundreds of bars curing under my stairs and there isn't a need for a dehumidifier. When it's really hot I do turn a fan on, but I live in a lower humidity climate so humidity isn't a huge issue anyway. Perhaps somehow who lives with more humidity could chime in here.

Could you share your exact recipe with us? I keeping looking at the soap photo. It's possible that the high superfat % is another red flag.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 8, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> This is the recipe I use from SoapCalc: 9.18 ounces of water, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel Oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil, 4.52 ounces of lye and 1.6 ounces of Glycerin.


That's 5% superfat (intrinsic CP). I understood you correctly that you don't add any oils on top of that?


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

The_Phoenix said:


> For a small batch of soap. the humidifier isn't completely necessary but it wouldn't hurt. I would keep the soap higher up to be sure it doesn't get dirty somehow. I did want to mention that I have several hundreds of bars curing under my stairs and there isn't a need for a dehumidifier. When it's really hot I do turn a fan on, but I live in a lower humidity climate so humidity isn't a huge issue anyway. Perhaps somehow who lives with more humidity could chime in here.
> 
> Could you share your exact recipe with us? I keeping looking at the soap photo. It's possible that the high superfat % is another red flag.


 

This is the recipe, and I used SoapCalc for it.  4.52 ounces of food grade Lye, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil and 9.18 ounces of distilled water.  How would I cut down on the superfat without messing up the ratio in the recipe?


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> That's 5% superfat (intrinsic CP). I understood you correctly that you don't add any oils on top of that?




I make my soap hot process as I found it just works better for me. I cure it for 6 weeks usually. I do not add any other oils or scents as I am highly sensitive to things.


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## The_Phoenix (Jun 8, 2021)

A soap going rancid that quickly is really quite rare. Something is definitely amiss.


Jen74 said:


> This is the recipe, and I used SoapCalc for it.  4.52 ounces of food grade Lye, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil and 9.18 ounces of distilled water.  How would I cut down on the superfat without messing up the ratio in the recipe?


Just plugged your recipe into the soap calculator. It's 5% superfat, so that's fine. Nothing out of the ordinary there. And now that I know that you HP, that would explain the texture.

I'm not sure what you meaning by "messing up the ratio of the recipe." When I think of "superfat" I envision "free" fat that is not saponified. The amount of fats you use stay the same no matter what superfat you plug into the calculator. You change the superfat by adjusting the lye. Using less lye will result in a higher superfat %. Play around with the superfat % in the calculator to see what that would look like.

So, now that I've looked at your recipe, and everything checks out there, it's likely the curing location. And you said previously that your palm oil and palm kernel flakes are fine and there is no hint of rancidity in their storing containers. Right?


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 8, 2021)

Hrm. HP gives you more freedom to control which oils should fully saponify. If you add all the oils at once at the beginning of the HP cook, it won't be different from CP, that's why quite some people prefer to call it “lye discount” for that reason. Since in HP, there is also the option of “late” superfat, i. e. saving some of the oils to add after the cook.

(Btw, in SoapCalc you can just lower the “Super Fat” value in the top right corner. Amounts of NaOH and water will go up a bit, the oil weights will stay the same)

ETA: The_Phoenix was a second quicker…


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## The_Phoenix (Jun 8, 2021)

A good experiment would be to make a batch as usual (albeit much smaller so you don't waste raw materials) and put half of the bars of soap in your closet away from bright sunlight, away from activity, and the other half in the usual curing area. If both sets go rancid, something else is amiss.


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## amd (Jun 8, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> This is the recipe, and I used SoapCalc for it. 4.52 ounces of food grade Lye, 6.40 ounces of Palm Kernel oil, 25.60 ounces of Palm oil and 9.18 ounces of distilled water. How would I cut down on the superfat without messing up the ratio in the recipe?


So this is your recipe





In soap calc, to change the super fat you would change this number on the calculator





If you change the superfat to 3%, this would be your new recipe.





Note that the amount of oils does not change. What changes is the amount of lye and water.
When lowering the superfat you are adding more lye (which then changes your amount of water) so that more oils are converted into soap.
When increasing the superfat you are adding less lye so that less oils are converted into soap.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 8, 2021)

Another question. I wonder why your soaps have such a whitish-opaque appearance. HP is the most stringent way of enforcing gel, so I'd expect them to look more translucent, particularly with added glycerol.
(Tbf I've never made HP soaps that high in hard oils, to compare these to).
I just want to make sure you cook long enough, and don't end up with a lot of unreacted oils and lye. Technically it shouldn't make a difference (saponification will finish within days at most), but it could prolong the time at which large amounts of partially broken down oil molecules are exposed to the environment.


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

The_Phoenix said:


> A soap going rancid that quickly is really quite rare. Something is definitely amiss.
> 
> Just plugged your recipe into the soap calculator. It's 5% superfat, so that's fine. Nothing out of the ordinary there. And now that I know that you HP, that would explain the texture.
> 
> ...


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

The_Phoenix said:


> A soap going rancid that quickly is really quite rare. Something is definitely amiss.
> 
> Just plugged your recipe into the soap calculator. It's 5% superfat, so that's fine. Nothing out of the ordinary there. And now that I know that you HP, that would explain the texture.
> 
> ...


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

There is no rancid smell to the oils at all. The container the palm oil is in is a plastic jug( 7lbs). The palm kernel oil is in a box, the oil is more solid and in a plastic bag inside the box. The Lye is in a plastic bottle with a safety top.


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Another question. I wonder why your soaps have such a whitish-opaque appearance. HP is the most stringent way of enforcing gel, so I'd expect them to look more translucent, particularly with added glycerol.
> (Tbf I've never made HP soaps that high in hard oils, to compare these to).
> I just want to make sure you cook long enough, and don't end up with a lot of unreacted oils and lye. Technically it shouldn't make a difference (saponification will finish within days at most), but it could prolong the time at which large amounts of partially broken down oil molecules are exposed to the environment.




I followed the recipe for the HP which cooks for about an hour and 20 minutes sometimes a little longer.


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 8, 2021)

Rancidity isn't necessarily easy to detect with the nose. If you feel comfortable to do so, you could just eat a bit of either oil. With refined oils, bitter, cheesy, tart, acrid-adstingent (like EVOO), or otherwise weird taste suggests rancidity, or at least inferior quality.

You cannot look into the manufacturing process. Oils are deodorised to sell them as industrial/cosmetic ingredients when they are of too low quality to meet food standards. They also might have been inadequately stored at the manufacturer or your supplier's warehouse.
This thread isn't about rancidity, but OP had other quality issues with palm oil, that vanished with changing the supply.

ad HP recipe: There is no hard rule how long to cook HP soap, the rule is “as long as it needs to finish saponifying”. But given you only use quick tracing oils, I guess you are well above the needed time (longer cook doesn't hurt, except when you're losing too much water to evaporation and/or the soap burns). But thanks for clarifying, so we can exclude this as well.


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## Jen74 (Jun 8, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Rancidity isn't necessarily easy to detect with the nose. If you feel comfortable to do so, you could just eat a bit of either oil. With refined oils, bitter, cheesy, tart, acrid-adstingent (like EVOO), or otherwise weird taste suggests rancidity, or at least inferior quality.
> 
> You cannot look into the manufacturing process. Oils are deodorised to sell them as industrial/cosmetic ingredients when they are of too low quality to meet food standards. They also might have been inadequately stored at the manufacturer or your supplier's warehouse.
> This thread isn't about rancidity, but OP had other quality issues with palm oil, that vanished with changing the supply.
> ...


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 8, 2021)

Like mentioned before: if you have humidity under suspicion, take care that your soap doesn't pull water from the air, i. e. leave out the extra glycerol, or at least replace it by something less hygroscopic (table sugar).


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## earlene (Jun 8, 2021)

I may be missing something, but I don't see visible DOS in those white bars of soap.  If you smell an off odor but do not see Dreaded Orange Spots, perhaps it is your nose and not actual rancidity?  Just a thought.

Do all your other soaps smell okay, or is it only this batch you pictured?  Do any of them have orange or darkish-yellow spots?

If none have spots and all of them smell off, I would question my olfactory sense has gone a little off.  That can happen.  Some things that affect the sense of smell are St. John's Wort (a supplement), some prescription medications), some illnesses.  Just FYI.

Maybe others see DOS in the pictures and I don't for some reason (my monitor? the time of day? poor lighting in my room?)


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## Jen74 (Jun 9, 2021)

earlene said:


> I may be missing something, but I don't see visible DOS in those white bars of soap.  If you smell an off odor but do not see Dreaded Orange Spots, perhaps it is your nose and not actual rancidity?  Just a thought.
> 
> Do all your other soaps smell okay, or is it only this batch you pictured?  Do any of them have orange or darkish-yellow spots?
> 
> ...




Yes, there is a few with light organce spots on them. I even had my husband and dad sniff them  because I thought exactly what you were saying, maybe my sense was off.  But it does smell unfortuantely. The picture I took I guess did not realy show the spots to well. There are not a ton of them, but you can see random light organge colored spots of some of the bars. This was my batch that I made a month ago and yes, all of them smell rancid. I had a few that were from a previous batch and even some of them went , but not all of them which is odd....


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## earlene (Jun 9, 2021)

It was probably my eyes, combined with the lighting last night.  I do see a hint of the yellowish orange spot on the single bar this morning.  My eyes are getting old and although still in the early stages, cataracts are developing, which I suspect is slowly altering the clarity of my vision.


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## Becky1024 (Jun 10, 2021)

I've never used palm oil, palm kernel oil or glycerin in my soaps so I may be way off base but here goes ...

In my experience, a few small DOS spots does not create a detectable rancid smell. It's only when the spots get very large or basically consume the entire bar that the bar stinks. So something else may be happening in your bars to make them smell bad.

Some of my customers with very sensitive noses have educated me that even unscented bars have a distinct odor to them. It comes from the natural odor of the oils and some are more pleasing than others. What is pleasing to one customer is not to another (the odor of shea butter in my case). I wonder if this is happening to you? Can anybody with experience in palm, palm kernel or glycerin chime in?


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## Jen74 (Jun 10, 2021)

Becky1024 said:


> I've never used palm oil, palm kernel oil or glycerin in my soaps so I may be way off base but here goes ...
> 
> In my experience, a few small DOS spots does not create a detectable rancid smell. It's only when the spots get very large or basically consume the entire bar that the bar stinks. So something else may be happeng in your bars to make them smell bad.
> 
> Some of my customers with very sensitive noses have educated me that even unscented bars have a distinct odor to them. It comes from the natural odor of the oils and some are more pleasing than others. What is pleasing to one customer is not to another (the odor of shea butter in my case). I wonder if this is happening to you? Can anybody with experience in palm, palm kernel or glycerin chime in?




The only thing is, I have made them the exact same way several times and they do not normally have this rancid smell. This is definitely rancid smell. There are a few bars that have some light orange spots on them.


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## AliOop (Jun 10, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> The only thing is, I have made them the exact same way several times and they do not normally have this rancid smell. This is definitely rancid smell. There are a few bars that have some light orange spots on them.


Rancidity will not necessarily be equal or even present across all bars from the same batch. I’d be more interested in finding the cause rather than why some did, and some did not.

Did the bars come in contact with sunlight or metal? Did you make them with tap water instead of distilled water? Old oils can also cause rancidity.


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## Jen74 (Jun 10, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Rancidity will not necessarily be equal or even present across all bars from the same batch. I’d be more interested in finding the cause rather than why some did, and some did not.
> 
> Did the bars come in contact with sunlight or metal? Did you make them with tap water instead of distilled water? Old oils can also cause rancidity.




No metal was in contact with the soap. I use distilled water when making my soaps. As for the oil, well it smells okay. The racidity seems to kick in during the curing process( like 2 weeks after it has been curing). I just think it must be a humidty issue as I never have this issue in the winter when the humidity in very low in the house( like 20's or 30's). Rght now it is spring approaching summer here in Chicago and my humidity level accroding to the guage I have is always betweem 45 and 50 percent. That is with the AC running and a fan blowing on the soaps. I am at a loss as to what to do...


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## ResolvableOwl (Jun 10, 2021)

Try a batch without glycerol.


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## Jen74 (Jun 10, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Try a batch without glycerol.


 Yes, I made some yesterday and left the glycerin out.


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## glendam (Jun 10, 2021)

My only experience with quick DOS was with a ghost swirl technique soap.  Soaps made before and after that one, from the same master batched oils did not have DOS.  That lead me to believe the excess water from the technique played a role (that and the fact that I couldn’t add ROE or EDTA because additives were against the challenge rules).  I live in a high humidity area (it’s like 91% humidity today), and at the time I did not have a dehumidifier. (It had broke down)


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## Jen74 (Jun 10, 2021)

glendam said:


> My only experience with quick DOS was with a ghost swirl technique soap.  Soaps made before and after that one, from the same master batched oils did not have DOS.  That lead me to believe the excess water from the technique played a role (that and the fact that I couldn’t add ROE or EDTA because additives were against the challenge rules).  I live in a high humidity area (it’s like 91% humidity today), and at the time I did not have a dehumidifier. (It had broke down)




I am wondering if I need to add ROE or EDTA to prevent rancidity? I hate to add anything as I am so sensitive and the less added the better for me.  I would think ROE would add a  odor. EDTA I have read it not the best long term to use( something about it raising cancer risks).


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## glendam (Jun 10, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> I am wondering if I need to add ROE or EDTA to prevent rancidity? I hate to add anything as I am so sensitive and the less added the better for me.  I would think ROE would add a  odor. EDTA I have read it not the best long term to use( something about it raising cancer risks).


ROE is used at a very low % (0.05% of oils), I normally need to weigh it on a jewelers scale.  There is no discerning smell at the end.  (I use fragrance though).  EDTA is used at 0.50% of total batch.  I would be curious to read about the long term cancer risk, do you remember where you read that?  Most of the concerns I have read were of an environmental nature


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## earlene (Jun 10, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> I am wondering if I need to add ROE or EDTA to prevent rancidity? I hate to add anything as I am so sensitive and the less added the better for me.  I would think ROE would add a  odor. EDTA I have read it not the best long term to use( something about it raising cancer risks).





glendam said:


> ROE is used at a very low % (0.05% of oils), I normally need to weigh it on a jewelers scale.  There is no discerning smell at the end.  (I use fragrance though).  EDTA is used at 0.50% of total batch.  I would be curious to read about the long term cancer risk, do you remember where you read that?  Most of the concerns I have read were of an environmental nature


I highly recommend ROE.  If you don't want to use EDTA (I do, but some don't like using EDTA), you can use Citric Acid instead.  

Here is a useful link on use of antioxidants (which ROE is) and chelators (which EDTA & Citric Acid are): 





						Rancidity and DOS | Soapy Stuff
					

Classic Bells restores antique sleigh bells and manufactures bell home decor. Wholesale. Retail.




					classicbells.com


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## Jen74 (Jun 10, 2021)

earlene said:


> I highly recommend ROE.  If you don't want to use EDTA (I do, but some don't like using EDTA), you can use Citric Acid instead.
> 
> Here is a useful link on use of antioxidants (which ROE is) and chelators (which EDTA & Citric Acid are):
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing. How would one keep dust off of soap while it's curing? Where do you get a good ROE? They mentioned adding it to the oil before making soap. I make HP soap. Could I add it while cooking the soap? Will it leave a fragrance in the soap?


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## lenarenee (Jun 10, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Thanks for sharing. How would one keep dust off of soap while it's curing? Where do you get a good ROE? They mentioned adding it to the oil before making soap. I make HP soap. Could I add it while cooking the soap? Will it leave a fragrance in the soap?



I thought I already posted this; so sorry if this is a duplicate.  I have used ROE before, and found it to have a noticeable fragrance in a cured bar of soap.  I love the smell, but since I almost always use fragrances, I stopped using it because I found it was strong enough to even taint those.


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## Jen74 (Jun 10, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> I thought I already posted this; so sorry if this is a duplicate.  I have used ROE before, and found it to have a noticeable fragrance in a cured bar of soap.  I love the smell, but since I almost always use fragrances, I stopped using it because I found it was strong enough to even taint those.




Oh wow, I defininitely do not want that then as I am highly sensitive to fragrances ( even some natural stuff).  I have Mast cell activation syndrome which makes me super reactive which is why I use only PKO and Palm oil in my soaps as I react to most everything else. What else can I add that would help prevent my soaps from going rancid? I am guessing they are going bad because of too much humidity and lack of additives to prevent rancidity?? What are your thoughts?


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## lenarenee (Jun 10, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Oh wow, I defininitely do not want that then as I am highly sensitive to fragrances ( even some natural stuff).  I have Mast cell activation syndrome which makes me super reactive which is why I use only PKO and Palm oil in my soaps as I react to most everything else. What else can I add that would help prevent my soaps from going rancid? I am guessing they are going bad because of too much humidity and lack of additives to prevent rancidity?? What are your thoughts?



Jen, do you have enough soap for your use now?   

I'm puzzled by this rancidity problem you're having. Unless your oils were old or contaminated when you bought them, or your crock pot is too porous and is leaching something...I don't know why your soap went rancid so quickly.  Palm and palm kernel oil are not problematic oils usually.

I do suggest using a chelator. I use sodium citrate (so I don't have to calculate additional lye because of the citric acid, but if you use citric acid we'll help you with that, it's not hard), but the others are fine too.

Not knowing your hot process method; I wonder if your soap gets overcooked....and MAYBE that does something - but that's just a guess.

Try a small 1lb batch using the cold process method, SF at 2 or 3%, use a chelator

Maybe start fresh with new ingredients. Make sure all of your bowls and tools are free of oils. 

Lye with as high a purity as you can get (I think you already had this - but try a new bottle)

The smell of ROE is very strong just when measuring it from the little bottle - you may not even be able to tolerate that so yeah, skip the ROE.

I have some soaps with very rich recipes including lard, shea or cocoa butter, and soft oils that I've mistreated by exposing to. very humid bathrooms, then tucking away in a forgotten drawer to pull out a year later....and rarely get DOS.  I do use sodium citrate though.

Can you cure a small batch at a friend's house and see what happens?  Although....might be exposed to air fresheners and perfumes there.

Have you tried using a detergent bar made with surfactants?  I LOVE "This is Not Soap" for my hair!  I never have to use conditioner and I have colored hair!   They have unscented; but I would contact them first to make sure they grab a bar for you that hasn't been sitting on a shelf near scented ones.


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## Jen74 (Jun 10, 2021)

lenarenee said:


> Jen, do you have enough soap for your use now?
> 
> I'm puzzled by this rancidity problem you're having. Unless your oils were old or contaminated when you bought them, or your crock pot is too porous and is leaching something...I don't know why your soap went rancid so quickly.  Palm and palm kernel oil are not problematic oils usually.
> 
> ...


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## lenarenee (Jun 10, 2021)

I buy my sodium citrate from Amazon (it's used to make cheese sauce!) Right now I have Anthony's brand.  I add 2 % sodium citrate per 1000 grams of oils. So that's 20 grams per 1000. ( the suggested usage rate is 1% to 4%)

I add the sodium citrate to my "naked" distilled water right after I've measured it out. Stir well to get it dissolving. Then I let it sit for 5 minutes to make sure it thoroughly dissolves, and stir it again. It's not difficult to dissolve, but I once didn't have all of it dissolved, and it caused problems.  AFTER it's thoroughly dissolved.  If I'm adding sugar, I add that next and also make sure it's fully dissolved. Then adding the lye comes next.

It must be frustrating - but I admire your perseverance!  If I can think of a spot in my house where I can cure a batch without it being exposed to any hairsprays, perfumes, and other scents, I'll make you a batch.....just in case.  I know what it's like to have a sensitivity and NOT have good soap!

Which reminds me; what brand of palm oils are you using? Some of them, including palm kernel oil, have to have the entire container melted down, stirred well to incorporate the heavier fatty acids that collect at the bottom, before measuring, (and this has to be done every time). Some are hydrogenated and don't need mixing.


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## earlene (Jun 11, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Thanks for sharing. How would one keep dust off of soap while it's curing?


Some folks use a sort of curtain of gauze around the curing racks.  Others enclose their curing trays inside of a screened set-up.  Strategically placed covers (paper, tissue or cloth) above the top rack can keep dust at bay.  Fans may blow dust, but keeping the area clean and free of dust-producing items helps as well (no pets in the room and that sort of thing.)


Jen74 said:


> Where do you get a good ROE? They mentioned adding it to the oil before making soap. I make HP soap. Could I add it while cooking the soap? Will it leave a fragrance in the soap?


See *this link* for places to buy ROE (a previous post in a different thread).

As for the smell in soap, that really will depend on various factors.  I do not smell it, even though my olfactory sense is very acute (or perhaps I just like it enough that it doesn't bother me).  Some of the factors could be where purchased (how the manufacturer prepares the ROE; not all are equal); percentage of Carsonic Acid (see the above link for more information); when added (when bottle is first opened, or when making the soap); percentage of ROE used in the soap (see the link  I provided for correct amounts recommended).


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## Becky1024 (Jun 11, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Thanks for sharing. How would one keep dust off of soap while it's curing? Where do you get a good ROE? They mentioned adding it to the oil before making soap. I make HP soap. Could I add it while cooking the soap? Will it leave a fragrance in the soap?


I use stackable racks and cover the top stack with a clean cotton dish towel.


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## Wendjie (Nov 17, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> So I have been making my own soap now for about a year. I use just a few basic ingredients because my skin is Severely sensitive and I react to many things. I got it down to palm oil, palm kernel oil, lye, and  water and I use the soap Calc. Those are my ingredients and they work well for me. Last year I noticed my soaps were getting rancid rather quickly and could not figure out why. I switched to making hot process soap and that seemed to help. I also started using a smal fan to blow on them while they are curing over the 4 to 6 weeks. Well everything was going great, no more rancid soap.  Well now here in Chicago it is spring and the humidity is up. Well all my soap that I just made a couple months ago went rancid! The only thing that is different is that it seems like in the winter, the soap has no issues( it is also very dry in the house). What can I do to prevent this? I bought a small table top dehumidifier which I will get tomorrow. I am thinking maybe if I place this dehumidifier in the area where I cure the soaps this can help? We have the AC on as well on hot humid days. Should I also use a fan on the soaps along with the dehumidifier? I am at a loss and not sure what to do. I mean I lost like a whole batch of soap because it smells kind of rancid( that old oil smell). I do not think it is safe to use rancid soap right?  Any suggestions? Does anyone else use a dehumidifier? Does this prevent soap going rancid?


Hello Jen did you resolve your problem? I have exactly the same so i would like to know what have you done? Thank you for your answer


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## Jen74 (Nov 17, 2021)

Wendjie said:


> Hello Jen did you resolve your problem? I have exactly the same so i would like to know what have you done? Thank you for your answer




Hey there. I am having some luck with the rancid issue. A person  on here adivsed that I switch my recipe adding a little more lye and water which in turn lowered the Fat perventage to  in my soap. My original recipe from soap calc called for 128.18 of Lye and 260.25 of water. Well I instead used 265.73 of water and 130.88 of Lye.  I also added a tiny bit of ROE( rosemary Olestrin) and run a dehumifier and fan in the room where my soaps  cure. It seems to be working so far. I make my soap HP too. I find it works better.


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## Wendjie (Nov 17, 2021)

Jen74 said:


> Hey there. I am having some luck with the rancid issue. A person  on here adivsed that I switch my recipe adding a little more lye and water which in turn lowered the Fat perventage to  in my soap. My original recipe from soap calc called for 128.18 of Lye and 260.25 of water. Well I instead used 265.73 of water and 130.88 of Lye.  I also added a tiny bit of ROE( rosemary Olestrin) and run a dehumifier and fan in the room where my soaps  cure. It seems to be working so far. I make my soap HP too. I find it works better.


Ok happy for you and thanks for the answer!


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