# Ready to give up



## scottcote3 (Jun 10, 2015)

I love making soap but have yet to have a batch turn out beautiful. All goes along smoothly with mixing and tracing. I pour into individual bar molds, and the next day my soap seems hard already and has these white spots/blotches on it. Every single batch I make comes out the same. I'm so depressed and ready to give up.


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## kisha (Jun 10, 2015)

Are you talking about ash? I get it on almost all of my bars with my favorite recipes. I've seen posts that mention spraying with alcohol and covering the soap with plastic wrap for the first couple of days to try and prevent it from forming. Can you post a picture?

I'm sure someone with much more knowledge will chime in.


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## Susie (Jun 10, 2015)

If it is soda ash, you can simply wash it off under water.  Much easier to get rid of it than prevent it.  Lots of my soaps develop soda ash.  The other possibility is if you use palm oil, you are getting stearic spots.


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## dixiedragon (Jun 10, 2015)

Like this?
http://www.teachsoap.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3800&view=previous


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## not_ally (Jun 10, 2015)

What is your recipe?  What method are you using (ie, cp or hp? Assume one b/c you mention trace).  Can you describe your process a bit, ie; what temp are you soaping at, are you stickblending or whisking, etc? Where are the spots, in the body of the soap or on the surface?  

If you can describe what you are doing lots of people will be willing to help, we are all soap maniacs here, don't give up.  It is probably something you can fix pretty easily once you figure it out.  It is just hard to figure out what is going on from the info above.


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## dixiedragon (Jun 10, 2015)

Are you using titanium dioxide?


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## scottcote3 (Jun 10, 2015)

I can't seem to up load photos. I created an album on this site but the picture isn't showing up. I am using cold process, the trace comes out perfect. I am using a hand blender.


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## commoncenz (Jun 10, 2015)

Don't give up! Think of most anything that you've done worthwhile in life; none of it came easy right away. And if it did, then it got harder as you tested/improved your skill level. The fun thing about soaping is that even when you get to a point where things are going relatively smoothly, there's more that you can learn, different techniques to try, recipes to develop etc. etc. etc. 

Soaping is a challenge in the beginning and remains as challenging as you choose to make it as you progress. But it can also be an enjoyable sensory experience that helps you relax. 

Stick with it. You'll be glad you did. 

And yes, it sounds like you've got soda ash. Happens to everyone. Pictures would aid in determining it though.


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## lionprincess00 (Jun 10, 2015)

Me too, often. I've been making it since last August, and it it always short of my vision. I am not a natural like some and struggle desperately with seeing a swirl and understanding how it was made...without detailed instructions my soaps resemble crayon drawings to me.

That said, it takes time to figure this out. If you enjoy it, don't give up. I enjoy it and will work through my struggles, as should you if you still like doing it. Didn't build Rome in a day right?

We are here to help you. Whatever the problem, I'm sure someone here can direct you to fixing it. 

Post your method, recipes with exact measures and we can walk you through whats going awry.

My first guess, if it's tracing and pouring well, the white is ash. We all deal with ash at some point. Getting soap to gel helps, lowering the water amount helps, and covering the soap with saran until it's done saponifying helps tremendously. That, or pop it out after saponifying and leave covered with saran or towels a week or so. Should cut back on ash as well.


All that said, with recipe and method we can tell you if it is ash or maybe something else you're doing, and we will help you through it


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## scottcote3 (Jun 10, 2015)




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## scottcote3 (Jun 10, 2015)

Here is a photo of three bars, but they all look this way. Do you know what I am doing wrong?

Can I re-melt and start over without wasting it? I so, how?


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## galaxyMLP (Jun 10, 2015)

That looks like ash to me. Does the soap zap? 

If its ash, running it under water will remove it. Also, if you run your finger nail over it and scrape some off, it should have "pretty" soap underneath. Dont get discouraged! Its all a learning experiece and this seems like this may be an easy fix! Ash happens ALL THE TIME!!

ETA, I usually use a potato peeler to get rid of ash if my bars are smooth and dont have fancy tops!


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## coffeetime (Jun 10, 2015)

That looks like ash to me. You can trim the bars with a knife or just rinse it off. I spray my loaves with alcohol and CPOP so I get minimal ash. I do find that individual molds get ashier, due to the increased exposed surface area.


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## scottcote3 (Jun 10, 2015)

Do you spray the bars with alcohol _after_ they are out of the mold or while they are still in it?


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## navigator9 (Jun 10, 2015)

It does look like ash, and you need to know that it's just cosmetic, it doesn't mean anything is wrong with your soap. Actually, they look really good to me! And know also, that if CP soapmaking were easy, everyone would do it. It's a skill that takes practice, but you're well on your way. Have you actually tried any of your soaps? Yes, it's nice if they look pretty, but what's reallllly important is how does it FEEL?


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## Susie (Jun 10, 2015)

Soda ash.  It is something that happens to all of us.  I just wash mine off after they cure.  Easy peasy to fix.


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## KristaY (Jun 10, 2015)

It looks like ash to me as well. Don't give up! In spite of the annoying ash, your soaps look lovely! Ash isn't harmful, it's only cosmetic. So if your soap doesn't zap, it's fine. I had a problem with ash on EVERY batch I made for a long time. It didn't matter what I tried to prevent it, nothing worked. Until I significantly decreased my water. For me, 1.8:1 water:lye ratio has stopped most of the problem. I still get ash on all salt bars and mechanic's soap that has a lot activated charcoal. I give them a bath and scrub the ash off with panty hose. As Susie said, it's easier to get rid of it than prevent it.

It looks to me like you're doing a beautiful job so keep at it!


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## galaxyMLP (Jun 10, 2015)

scottcote3 said:


> Do you spray the bars with alcohol _after_ they are out of the mold or while they are still in it?


 

While they are still in the mold. The idea is that the spray them right after pouring to create a barier with the air. That is because ash forms when free sodium hydroxide is exposed to the air and creates sodium carbonate by reacting with the carbon dioxide in the air. 


If you see the alcohol dry out, spray them again although I havent had very much luck with the alcohol spray technique. I like to cover/CPOP.


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## Dorymae (Jun 10, 2015)

I get soap ash all the time, well it feels like that!  Anyway I have never been able to prevent it entirely, but luckily a quick rinse and rub under water will wash it away. Then just set the bar upright to dry completely. 

One thing that does help is a water discount, when you are comfortable with trying it of course.


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## Nevada (Jun 10, 2015)

providing your recipe and technique would be helpful


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## shunt2011 (Jun 10, 2015)

I agree with the others.  It's just cosmetic.  Spraying with alcohol and covering may help.  I may be one of the fortunate ones who rarely gets ash (now I've probably jinxed myself).  I do spray and cover and leave the cover on for 18-24 hours with just quick peeks to make sure it's not overheating. Anything I remove the cover one sooner does get a bit of ash.


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## IrishLass (Jun 10, 2015)

Ditto what the others have said- don't give up! Especially over something as benign and commonplace as ash. 

Having said that, it's very rare that I get ash anymore ever since I lowered my water amount and encourage all my batches to gel. I also make sure my soap is protected from the air as it's saponifying by covering my mold..... and I don't uncover/unmold until my soap has cooled down from gel. 


IrishLass


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## Seawolfe (Jun 10, 2015)

Soda ash can actually add visual interest, and truly no big deal. If you do get it just steam or rinse it off.
Study up on water discounting and it will become more rare.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 10, 2015)

Since you have ash on the cut surfaces of the bar, it might not work 100% to treat the top of your soap while in the mold -- you may still get ash on the other surfaces after you unmold the soap. I'd guess you are using a recipe with a low lye solution concentration (lots of water). You might try slightly less water, such as a lye concentration of 30%, and see if that helps. 

But, really, everyone is right -- ash happens to everyone at one time or another. It's not a big deal, and your soap is most likely perfectly fine. Embrace the ash!


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## Jstar (Jun 10, 2015)

Yup, ash..not a big deal at all..dont let that discourage you..you're doing great!

I dont get much ash anymore, but when I do I just leave it be..sometimes ash give the soaps a unique appearance that you can't get any other way.

I have yet to try it, but I saw a vid one time where the soaper took her soap that while still in the mold and ready to cut, run it under hot water and let it dry again a bit and then cut it..no ash and no planing needed after that.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 10, 2015)

I have to ask - what is it that you are looking to make? Why are you talking about giving up before you even begin to troubleshoot? Some tough-love here, but soaping is not always simple and things will go wrong - if you want to produce perfect soaps every time from the start then maybe it is best that you give up now. If you want to make soaps that are great to use even if they look odd, and you acknowledge that there will be mistakes along the way, then welcome to the world of soaping. 

It can take time to work out certain issues in soaping as it depends on a lot of variables that will be particular to you and your location, recipe and so on. People here can offer guidance, but it will take some work on your part to actually put it all together. 

So quit, if you don't want to make soap. Or stay and make soap.


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## not_ally (Jun 10, 2015)

Also, have you thought of using a mold that is not single bars?  Soda ash forms on the outside, so the more surface area you have, the more ash you will get.  If you use a log/slab it will reduce that, plus it will be easier to clean - you can just spray/dunk the whole thing rather than individual bars.  Is that right, you math-y types, or am I figuring wrong?

If you want to try it out and don't yet have log/slab molds, you can test on empty household containers like milk cartons (maybe someone else can chip in here w/suggestions, I am not that creative regarding those b/c I had log molds from making mp before I started w/cp.


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## commoncenz (Jun 10, 2015)

not_ally said:


> Also, have you thought of using a mold that is not single bars?  Soda ash forms on the outside, so the more surface area you have, the more ash you will get.  If you use a log/slab it will reduce that, plus it will be easier to clean - you can just spray/dunk the whole thing rather than individual bars.  Is that right, you math-y types, or am I figuring wrong?
> 
> If you want to try it out and don't yet have log/slab molds, *you can test on empty household containers like milk cartons (maybe someone else can chip in here w/suggestions,* I am not that creative regarding those b/c I had log molds from making mp before I started w/cp.



Within the last month I have used shoe boxes, a plastic tupperware container that is roughly the size of a 5 lb slab mold, some small boxes that my colors from Nurture Soap arrived in and the plastic cover off of a stack of blank dvds that I cut the closed end off of, lined with mineral oil and sealed off on both ends with pieces of a silicone mat that I cut to fit. 

Basically, you are only limited by your imagination (and the laws of chemistry and physics) when it comes to what you can use as a mold.


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## cmzaha (Jun 10, 2015)

One of my favorite Papaya recipes gets ash so thick, even with a 33% lye concentration, it takes a couple of showers for it to wash off :-D. I simply do not worry about it and neither do my customers. Alcohol has never stopped the recipes I have that form ash consistently


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## dillsandwitch (Jun 11, 2015)

I have found lately with my cpop experiments that after pour I put it in the oven and leave it for about 10 or so minutes till it gets hard enough to not dent if touched. I thin put my cling wrap over and then let it go through gel. Haven't had ash on any of the 10 or so batches I have done this way.

I  leave it on for 24 hours + to whenever Im ready to un-mould and cut. Basically till it doesn't zap anymore.   

Maybe you can give the cling wrap idea a go even using your individual moulds. Since you dont need to worry about cutting you'd be right to leave it for days covered if need be to prevent the ash. obviously less time if you gel them,  Hope that helps you out some


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## dixiedragon (Jun 11, 2015)

I don't mind a little soda ash on the top of my loaf - but I HATE it when I use a pretty individual mold and it is all over the place!


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## not_ally (Jun 11, 2015)

Quote: "have found lately with my cpop experiments that after pour I put it in  the oven and leave it for about 10 or so minutes till it gets hard  enough to not dent if touched. I thin put my cling wrap over and then  let it go through gel. Haven't had ash on any of the 10 or so batches I  have done this way."  

Dillandswhitch, and OP, I think this jibes with the thread regarding ash that just revived, where DeeAnna talks about ash being formed by the reaction b/w lye and CO2 in the air during saponification, most of which takes place in the first 24 hrs.  It makes sense that reducing that exposure with cling wrap (or some other barrier) would reduce ash formation during that really active time.

OP, if you're still out there, you should read that thread, it is pretty interesting and informative.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 11, 2015)

Not ally -- is it this one? http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46697


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## not_ally (Jun 11, 2015)

Yup, that's  it.


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## scottcote3 (Jun 13, 2015)

ok; Thanks for all the info on ash. The other (worse) problem that I have is that every batch that I make looks perfect and I bring to a light trace, pour into a 3 lb mold and into individual molds. But within 3-6 hours, EVERY and I mean EVERY batch I make has gone through the entire curing process. The 3 lb mold is ruined as I cannot cut it without the soap just chunking off. Is it because I live on the 15th floor of a highrise in Dallas? Maybe I need a new scale. Here is one of the recipes:

9-1/2 oz coconut oil
8 oz shea butter
16 oz almond oil
4 oz borage oil
2 oz apricot kernel oil
13 oz distilled water
5-1/2 oz sodium hydroxide
2 tsp vitamin e oil.

I have a big tub of coconut oil and noticed that it is typically in batter form instead of liquid when I measure it. I assume that's not an issue. I also make sure my temperatures of the oils vs caustic are around 10 degrees apart before blending.  Any ideas?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jun 13, 2015)

It hasn't gone through the entire curing process after that time. It might be hard, but the solution to that is to actually babysit a batch that you don't know to see how long it needs and cut it when it is ready. My 100% co bars are ready to cut almost as soon as they are poured. If I waited any time at all they would be too hard. You can take times as suggestions, but the actual time will depend on your recipe and your situation (hot house, damp air and so on)


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## not_ally (Jun 13, 2015)

Couple of thoughts.  As EG noted, the curing process takes much longer - really months, at least four weeks before a soap has cured long for most of the mavens to consider ready to use - so not sure what you mean by the fact that it is cured, is it that it is hardening fast so that it crumbles when it is cut? Or alternately, really soft so that it sticks in chunks when you try to cut? Also, and this may be related, that is a high percentage of shea, it works out to 20.25 if I put this into the MMS calculator correctly.  Most people recommend using butters at 10% or less.

I would try a couple of things: smaller batches for now until you have things worked out.  You have about 40 oz of oils there, maybe try a lb - 24 oz so that if things go wrong there is less to have to throw out/fix.  

Use a really simple recipe, with basic oils.  Eg, I don't even know what kind of oil borage is, so can't give any input on it, many may have the same problem.  Plus it is usually easier, cheaper, and simpler to tweak with more basic stuff in part b/c there is more info on them and more people can advise on them.  And they make great soap!

I am one of the resident lard fanatics, so I would recommend the basic recipe that Susie - our lard goddess - does for beginners, here it is (you can sub palm for lard if you have issues w/lard):

"Palm/Tallow/Lard 55%
Olive Oil 20%
Coconut Oil 20%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5-8%

I add 1 tsp/PPO sugar to boost bubbles.  Give it 4-6 weeks cure, and it should be fine." 

If you want to check your scale, here's an easy-ish way to do it: http://lifehacker.com/test-your-kitchen-scale-s-accuracy-with-pocket-change-1638466253


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## not_ally (Jun 13, 2015)

Although this just occurred to me, I have never thought of it before b/c I always use lard.  Susie, or anyway else out there that has subbed palm in that recipe:  does it make it a v. fast tracing and drying bar if you do?  The palm and coconut totals to 75%, that seems pretty high.

EDTA:  Don't want to derail this thread, OP or mods, should I move the last couple of posts? I am afraid of becoming know of "that de-railing woman" to the mods b/c I ramble so much. Just don't want to recommend a fast-tracing/drying recipe to beginners if it is likely to be one.


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## not_ally (Jun 13, 2015)

In the meantime, here's a cut and paste of a post shared by Mr. Lee Bussy, of his favorite beginner soap.   I would sub regular OO for the pomace in this, though, pomace traces faster.  And it does, again, contain lard.  But if someone does not opine on the 75% palm/coconut mix, this is a total of 54% for those if you choose to sub palm for lard, which brings it closer to the "trinity" mixes that many recommend for beginners.
-----------------
"My favorite bar soap (so far) is a recipe IrishLass shared:

40 Pomace Olive Oil (can buy any 100% Olive Oil for this)
27 Lard  (Manteca or Armor brand in the grocery stores)
25 Coconut Oil (Health food stores have this, some groceries.  A little  more expensive local but you can "impulse" buy it on the weekend)
8  Castor Oil (also available in most drug stores)
Superfat 6%

You can buy everything on one trip out on a Saturday morning in most  towns in the US (I have done it) and have soap in the mold by lunch.   That and lard makes a fantastic bar soap."


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## DeeAnna (Jun 13, 2015)

"...The 3 lb mold is ruined as I cannot cut it without the soap just chunking off...."

Another question related to when you cut the soap is -- ~How~ are you cutting your soap? Are you using a wide knife? A flat "bench scraper" type of cutter? A wire cutter? 

Your recipe, made as written, should result in the soap being fairly hard when you remove it from the mold. The large % of shea may also be contributing unsaponifiable ingredients that add to the hardness/brittleness. I'd say choosing a good time to cut this particular soap will be important, but choosing a good way to cut it may also be critical.

Another thought -- why is the mold itself ruined? How are you using the mold to make this soap? Are you lining it? Is it a silicone mold? ???

A couple of comments --

The combination of the borage and almond oils in this recipe is raising your linoleic+linolenic % fairly high. This may make this soap more prone to DOS/rancidity. Might want to consider tweaking the amounts of these ingredients to reduce that risk.

Also, borage is an expensive oil that is probably going to give more benefit to the skin if left intact rather than turned into soap. Why not save it for leave-on products?


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## navigator9 (Jun 13, 2015)

Your stating that "But within 3-6 hours, EVERY and I mean EVERY batch I make has gone through the entire curing process.", makes me wonder where you got your soapmaking information. If you got it off the internet, be aware that there's some absolutely incorrect and sometimes even potentially dangerous info floating around out there. You might want to get to a library and look for some books with reliable information in them. Here are a few, Anne Watson's being my personal favorite. "Smart Soapmaking by Anne Watson",  "Soapmaker's Companion by Susan Miller Cavitch",  "The Everything Soapmaking Book by Alicia Grosso". Having a good basic knowledge about the soapmaking process will make things so much easier for you. 
So as you've been informed above, your soap hasn't cured, that process takes much longer. What I'm wondering is, if it has gelled. Are you familiar with what the gel stage looks like? This is a batch of soap, in a loaf mold, going through gel stage. It starts in the center, and works it's way out to the edges. If your soap goes through this stage, the process of the ingredients turning into soap, goes much faster than if it doesn't. Within 24 hours or less, you can take it out of the mold, cut it, and there is no zap left. Zap is when you touch your tongue to the soap and you get the tingle of lye that's still not saponified. If your batch doesn't go through this stage, it still turns into soap, it just takes longer. If it doesn't gel, the soap will be firm, but it can still be dented with pressure from your finger. It may also crumble if you try to get it out of the mold. Try just leaving your soap in the mold for several days.....a week. Forget about it. Then go back and check. Is it hard? Is the zap gone? If so, then the problem was that your soap didn't gel, and just needed more time in the mold. Good luck!


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## newbie (Jun 13, 2015)

Agree with everyone else's comment but wanted to add that you are using expensive oils as a beginner, when you are bound to have more issues as you familiarize yourself with soap making. They aren't really necessary to make a fantastic bar of soap so I would suggest you consider trying different ingredients to start- lard, olive oil, coconut oil, castor oil, palm, tallow. The high percentage of shea plus coconut is going to make a very hard bar and if you leave it too long before cutting, it is far more likely to break. 

Smaller batches- 1 to 2 pounds- and less expensive oils with you saving your high end ones for a body butter or such (plus high percentage of shea or cocoa can decrease the lather) would be first steps, from my point of view. Try a single 1 pound batch with the recipe Susie gave you and you will see what we mean.


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