# Can this batch be saved?



## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

I made my first batch of liquid soap yesterday. Well, I attempted it, but it didn't work, so I'm hoping someone might have an idea whether it can be fixed. My husband has already been sweet enough to say, "Sometimes when you're experimenting, it just has to end up in the trash," but I am Miss Never Give Up, and I want to try to save it!

I used this recipe and procedure: http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/liquidsoap/ss/basicliquidsoap.htm

Here is a picture of what the soap looks like when I've done all the steps and it should look like an amber liquid: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...1058632802003.437471.523227002&type=1&theater

One problem I know happened, but don't know if it caused what I'm seeing, is my crockpot got unplugged during the cook. When I noticed it, I plugged it back in and plugged away.

When I got to the part about waiting for the soap paste to be diluted, I covered and turned off the crock pot and went to bed, (like the author suggested). This morning, when I woke up, it wasn't diluted--not even close! So... I turned the crock pot on and after a bit, took a stick blender to it. Maybe that caused the problem?

So, I got the temperature up there like he said, but the soap looked more like mashed potatoes than a liquid. There wasn't a picture in the tutorial for this stage, so I thought doing the neutralizing step might do the trick. Nope. Still mashed potatoes. 

Can this batch be saved?

Thanks!
Lisa


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## Jaccart789 (Aug 31, 2014)

There is several parts to liquid soap making. It was my first soap I attempted and it was a success, but I haven't done it since. I can't remember all the steps without looking at my notes, but there is a point your soap will look like mash potatoes. I remember cooking it down until it looked like a glycerine glob. It was then I diluted. I don't think your done before dilution. Go onto youtube and watch Soaping101 making liquid soap recipe. She might be more help.

I will look for a pic and post.


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## Jaccart789 (Aug 31, 2014)

Pics of the stages


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

My soap turned translucent last night, and I did the dilution test, which didn't turn cloudy. It's just been since I diluted the whole batch that it went back to mashed potato appearance.


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

It seems like there isn't enough water in it. The tutorial calls for 40 oz of water to dilute the paste, and that's how much I used.


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## Susie (Aug 31, 2014)

First off, not all liquid soaps go through every stage shown in the tutorials.  I have even had 2 batches using the same exact recipe not go through stages identically.  So, you are fine there.

Did you test for zap, use pheolpthalien, or do a pH test before dilution?

Also, do you have lumps of soap paste or a skin on top?  Or straight mashed potato stage?  If it is mashed potato stage, do a zap test before adding more water.


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## FGOriold (Aug 31, 2014)

Susie is right that each time you make liquid soap, it can act differently for various reasons. Some go through all the stages, some go through just a few and some go so fast you don't even see them. One thing to keep in mind is there are quite a few "older" recipes and tutorials out there that rely on formulating with a lye excess that needs to be neutralized after dilution with boric acid, borax or citric acid and you will see amounts listed for those.  This is because Potassium Hydroxide is only about 90% pure so in order to make sure all the oils were saponified, a lye excess was used.  These days, the calculators we have available to use (summerbee meadow, soapcalc and brambleberry) take this 90% purity into account and it is not necessary to formulate with the lye excess which means there is no need to neutralize the soap if you use these calculators. I find that more paople have problems with the addition of these ingredients than anything else when it comes to liquid soapmaking.  Too much borax or citric acid will cause various problems - some of which can be corrected, some cannot.

Have you added the borax that the recipe called for yet?


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

Susie said:


> First off, not all liquid soaps go through every stage shown in the tutorials.  I have even had 2 batches using the same exact recipe not go through stages identically.  So, you are fine there.
> 
> Did you test for zap, use pheolpthalien, or do a pH test before dilution?
> 
> Also, do you have lumps of soap paste or a skin on top?  Or straight mashed potato stage?  If it is mashed potato stage, do a zap test before adding more water.



I didn't test before dilution, but now tested with pH paper, and it's about 8 (my scale goes from 7 to 9, and the color is about halfway between). I also did a zap test now, and it didn't zap.

I've kept my crock pot on warm throughout these posts, and when I go to stir, some is liquid. So, that seems even more like there is not enough water.


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## Susie (Aug 31, 2014)

OK, I just got time to run that recipe through a lye calculator(which you should ALWAYS do before making any, no matter where you get the recipe from).  That recipe shows as a 0% superfat, which is not going to be conditioning, but should not need the boric acid or borax for neutralization.  Please look under the "mashed potatoes" to see if you have some sort of clear liquid under there.  If so, we need to raise the pH to turn it back into soap.  If not, then we need a different potential solution.

I show that recipe as using almost twice the amount of water to dissolve the KOH.  This is not the end of the world, but can be part of the problem.

I also show that the original recipe called for 3oz FO or EO, which is WAY too much for that soap.  I would use no more than 0.7 oz of FO or EO for that size batch.


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

Susie said:


> OK, I just got time to run that recipe through a lye calculator(which you should ALWAYS do before making any, no matter where you get the recipe from).  That recipe shows as a 0% superfat, which is not going to be conditioning, but should not need the boric acid or borax for neutralization.  Please look under the "mashed potatoes" to see if you have some sort of clear liquid under there.  If so, we need to raise the pH to turn it back into soap.  If not, then we need a different potential solution.
> 
> I show that recipe as using almost twice the amount of water to dissolve the KOH.  This is not the end of the world, but can be part of the problem.
> 
> I also show that the original recipe called for 3oz FO or EO, which is WAY too much for that soap.  I would use no more than 0.7 oz of FO or EO for that size batch.



Yes, I do have liquid under the "mashed potatoes".

I have not added any FO or EO, yet, but I did add the borax solution.

I'm still newbie--I made my first batch of CP soap less than 5 weeks ago (on July 29). But, I've made more than 20 batches of CP/HP already, and if you saw it on another thread, I'm the crazy soap person who made soap in my hotel room while on a business trip. Just a bit obsessive with my hobbies!

I really want to be able to make liquid soap! So many people have already asked me for it. Everything I've learned, I've found online, along with a few tips given by a friend who made soap in the 90's, but I ordered some books this morning, too. 


Thanks for all your help, and I can't wait to know enough to be able to pass it on and help others!!

Lisa


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

*Updated photo*

This is what it looks like now.


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

FGOriold said:


> Susie is right that each time you make liquid soap, it can act differently for various reasons....
> 
> ...Have you added the borax that the recipe called for yet?




Yes, I did add the borax solution.


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## Susie (Aug 31, 2014)

OK, have you zap tested that?  If you haven't, please pull a bit of the paste out to test for some sort of skin safety before doing anything else.  I suspect the pH is a bit low, but not too bad as what I see is, indeed, mashed potatoes, not fatty acids sitting on top of lye solution(which is what I was worried about).

(And BTW, you absolutely win the crazy soap person award as far as I am concerned!)

Liquid soap making is nothing like it used to be.  If you run all your recipes through a good lye calculator, there is no need to neutralize.  A lot of the books still tell you that you need to.  I use the oils from those recipes and run the rest of the recipe through a good calculator.  I also no longer use alcohol or sequester for 2 weeks.  Or even cook it for hours  Heresy, I know!


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

Susie said:


> OK, have you zap tested that?  If you haven't, please pull a bit of the paste out to test for some sort of skin safety before doing anything else.  I suspect the pH is a bit low, but not too bad as what I see is, indeed, mashed potatoes, not fatty acids sitting on top of lye solution(which is what I was worried about).
> 
> (And BTW, you absolutely win the crazy soap person award as far as I am concerned!)
> 
> Liquid soap making is nothing like it used to be.  If you run all your recipes through a good lye calculator, there is no need to neutralize.  A lot of the books still tell you that you need to.  I use the oils from those recipes and run the rest of the recipe through a good calculator.  I also no longer use alcohol or sequester for 2 weeks.  Or even cook it for hours  Heresy, I know!




Yes, I have zap tested, and it did not zap me! 

I think I saw one of your posts earlier about not cooking your soap paste! I read it and was thrilled! I love that kind of heresy. 

I once told my husband he must have OCD. He said, "No, I have CDO. It's the same thing, but the letters are in alphabetical order--the way they should be!"

The other day, he told me I have SCD. It's just like CSD (Compulsive Soap Disorder), but the Soap comes first, the way it should be!

I completely enjoy being this kind of crazy!


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## Susie (Aug 31, 2014)

Yay!  Now we need to dilute!  If you have the faintest clue of paste weight(I show somewhere in the 38-40 oz range), I would add that much water, and break up the clumps with the crockpot on high.  If you have largish clumps in four hours or so after it gets really warm, I would break up those clumps more and add 4 oz water at the time with at least a couple of hours dilution time between additions.  If you need to go to bed, just unplug the crockpot and wrap in a heavy towel or blanket and resume in the morning.  You "should" need somewhere in the twice paste weight amount of water total.  But, you had about 8 oz extra water to begin with, so keep that in mind.

Hand made liquid soap is very thin.  Period.  Do not be dismayed.  There are ways to thicken it, and we have some smart people here that thicken theirs all the time who can help you.  I use my hand soap in a foamer, so it needs to be thin.  And I hate adding steps and extra stuff to a process I worked so hard to get down to absolutely the minimum number of steps.


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

Susie said:


> Yay!  Now we need to dilute!  If you have the faintest clue of paste weight(I show somewhere in the 38-40 oz range), I would add that much water, and break up the clumps with the crockpot on high.  If you have largish clumps in four hours or so after it gets really warm, I would break up those clumps more and add 4 oz water at the time with at least a couple of hours dilution time between additions.  If you need to go to bed, just unplug the crockpot and wrap in a heavy towel or blanket and resume in the morning.  You "should" need somewhere in the twice paste weight amount of water total.  But, you had about 8 oz extra water to begin with, so keep that in mind.
> 
> Hand made liquid soap is very thin.  Period.  Do not be dismayed.  There are ways to thicken it, and we have some smart people here that thicken theirs all the time who can help you.  I use my hand soap in a foamer, so it needs to be thin.  And I hate adding steps and extra stuff to a process I worked so hard to get down to absolutely the minimum number of steps.



Thank you, Susie!!

I will do that. And I love foam soap!!

I really, really appreciate all your help, and from now on, I promise to run EVERY recipe through a lye calculator!!

Thanks,
Lisa


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

This is what it looks like after adding 40 oz of boiling water and breaking it up with a potato masher. I think this looks much better!


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

hmm... now it has a skin on it. That's not good, is it?


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## FGOriold (Aug 31, 2014)

Youu can add a bit more water if your soap has a skin or you can remove it and dilute it separately.


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## PUREAnticipation (Aug 31, 2014)

FGOriold said:


> Youu can add a bit more water if your soap has a skin or you can remove it and dilute it separately.



Wonderful! Thank you!


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## liquidsoaplady (Sep 2, 2014)

*Sounds Like Not Enough Water*

Sounds like you don't have enough water for dilution, the best way to dilute the soap paste is in a cooking pot on the stove, the crock pot doesn't get hot enough. You will have a very good boil when the paste is dissolving in the distilled water, you do use distilled water right? It's takes a little time to dissolve depending on the type of oil you used, especially a high percentage of coconut oil. The best way to determine the amount of distilled water needed to dissolve the paste is the percentage of true soap to water ratio. For an average liquid soap which is 25% actual soap to 75% water, you would add 1 lb and 6 oz (22 oz) of water per lb of soap. So if you made 6 lbs of soap paste you would dilute with 9 lbs and 6 oz 0r (132 oz) of distilled water. The soap will begin to look like maple syrup while boiling in the pot. If you know how many lbs of soap paste you made, try diluting using this formula, if you have an idea of how much water you added, just subtract it from the amount needed. Hope this helps! 
Lisa


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## PUREAnticipation (Sep 2, 2014)

liquidsoaplady said:


> Sounds like you don't have enough water for dilution, the best way to dilute the soap paste is in a cooking pot on the stove, the crock pot doesn't get hot enough. You will have a very good boil when the paste is dissolving in the distilled water, you do use distilled water right? It's takes a little time to dissolve depending on the type of oil you used, especially a high percentage of coconut oil. The best way to determine the amount of distilled water needed to dissolve the paste is the percentage of true soap to water ratio. For an average liquid soap which is 25% actual soap to 75% water, you would add 1 lb and 6 oz (22 oz) of water per lb of soap. So if you made 6 lbs of soap paste you would dilute with 9 lbs and 6 oz 0r (132 oz) of distilled water. The soap will begin to look like maple syrup while boiling in the pot. If you know how many lbs of soap paste you made, try diluting using this formula, if you have an idea of how much water you added, just subtract it from the amount needed. Hope this helps!
> Lisa



Hi Lisa,

Yes, it was a case of not enough water. When I went to 1:2 soap:water, it was good. When I went to 1:3, it worked in my foaming pump! 

Thanks!
Lisa


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## liquidsoaplady (Sep 8, 2014)

*How do you get by with not cooking the paste?*

Hi Susie,
I would like to hear your version of making liquid soap,  sounds like you cut a lot of time out of the process! You must be onto a new liquid soap making era! 
Lisa


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## DeeAnna (May 14, 2015)

LSL -- See http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852


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