# more shampoo bar questions



## Bex1982 (Jul 15, 2014)

I've read that essentially you can wash your hair with any soap. While I've had a recipe for a shampoo bar for some time, I haven't actually made it yet. 
But a few days ago a lady at the market asked me if I sold a shamp bar and that got me thinking about it again.  I've put off making my own because all of the ones I've tried have made my hair dry and dull. However,  now I know to use an acid rinse after. 
Ive been doing co-washing but it often leaves my hair limp, mine is on the fine side and curly. 
Anyway,  I grabbed my charcoal bar and washed my hair, just to see. Followed up with a conditioner containing CA, so I thought that would sub the acid rince plus hydrate my hair. It was bubbly and felt clean, hair felt kind of weird like when you shamp with a  sulfate free shampoo. 
I got out, less hair fall, hair shiny and thick but oily looking somewhat. Like second day hair. 
So next shower I thought I would use my salt bar to get through the oilyness. Feels fine going on BUT THEN I feel the back of my head and itch it, and there is a layer of sebum gunk, probably a 1/4 inch thick. It was so gross. So I had to bust out the sulfate free shamp then had a ton of hair fall and limp locks. 
Anyone know why its not cleaning my hair. 
Aren't shamp bars formulated to be more gentle than body soap? Then why is the stronger body soap still not washing my hair?  My hair is not normally very oily. Help, because im tired of hair falling out and would love to be able to use a shamp bar.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 15, 2014)

my advice, based on about a year of soap for my hair.

Acid rinse helps with the greasies, and with combing out, and with shine.  It neutralises the alkaline soap, and lets the scales of the hair lay flat and tight to the core of the hair.

Soap bars won't wash like shampoo, so you have to make sure you actually get soap all over....shampoo you can get away with washing the front and letting the suds run down the hair shaft and be pretty sure it will clean.  I find with soap you have to wash the skin of the scalp, getting soap on the skin all over the scalp and any hair that you want to wash.  Then I find it cleans properly.  I dont' use a conditioner anymore, and I have used very high coconut bars with no problem, as long as I use an acid rinse.

One other suggestion: Try a different acid for your rinse.  I like unpasturized apple cider vinegar, and my hair doesn't like citric acid much at all.


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## coffeetime (Jul 15, 2014)

I had a similar experience but I discovered a bunch of reasons: my hormones were out of whack, my water is very hard so I need some coconut oil in my bars, and an ACV rinse helps immensely. 

I am mentally working on a new recipe with citric acid to help with the hard water, some coconut, and a superfat that works with all these variables. Yikes!!

When I got my hair cut recently, the hairdresser just spritzed my hair down with water, and then commented that my hair was very dry. It actually wasn't, it was just that I was experimenting with some of my regular soap bars to see what effects they have, and I had some hard water (mineral) buildup making my hair seem dry. Research is challenging!


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## Bex1982 (Jul 15, 2014)

Soap queen has a recipe for one with citric acid. Too many oils for my liking but it sounds nice. Im also not entirely sure that lowering the ph will make much difference since hair like lower ph and you can't get soap to be acidic. But maybe it does help. Im not a chemist  
Here's the link, I'm still thinking about trying it out.http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/cold-process-soap/sudsy-shampoo-bars/


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## Obsidian (Jul 15, 2014)

It could be that your regular soap bars are too cleansing causing your scalp to go into overdrive and produce way too much oil. Also, a high SF will leave your hair feeling nasty and looking oily. salt bars wreck my hair and scalp, the high cleansing combined with a 20% SF just gunks up everything.
I use a modified version of genny's shampoo bar, I added 5% coconut so its a tiny bit cleansing but not too much. I also lowered to SF to 3 so there isn't too much residue left behind.

You need to make a regular shampoo bar and stick with it for at least two months before you decide if you like it or not. I think genny's recipe is really good for fine hair. I have crazy wild frizzy hair but its fine and gets weighed down easily. Its actually under more control and my curls are more defined sine I started using poo bars about 10 months ago.


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## coffeetime (Jul 15, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> I think genny's recipe is really good for fine hair. I have crazy wild frizzy hair but its fine and gets weighed down easily. Its actually under more control and my curls are more defined sine I started using poo bars about 10 months ago.



I have fine hair but not baby-fine, and I have lots of it and I found Gennys recipe made it very fly-away. And static-y. It made me feel like I needed conditioner.


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## coffeetime (Jul 15, 2014)

Bex1982 said:


> Soap queen has a recipe for one with citric acid. Too many oils for my liking but it sounds nice. Im also not entirely sure that lowering the ph will make much difference since hair like lower ph and you can't get soap to be acidic. But maybe it does help. Im not a chemist
> Here's the link, I'm still thinking about trying it out.http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/cold-process-soap/sudsy-shampoo-bars/



Thank you. I don't actually want a less alkaline pH, but I had read that sodium citrate would be created during the lye reaction, and that sodium citrate helps with hard water. But it also reacts with lye, leaving more fat unsaponified, so that has to be accounted for. I'm not a chemist, so I am not able to figure out the exact reaction, so trial and error for me. Plus I wanted to use lemon juice instead of pure citric acid and there's only so much you can use before the soap doesn't make soap anymore.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 15, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> It could be that your regular soap bars are too cleansing causing your scalp to go into overdrive and produce way too much oil. Also, a high SF will leave your hair feeling nasty and looking oily. salt bars wreck my hair and scalp, the high cleansing combined with a 20% SF just gunks up everything.
> I use a modified version of genny's shampoo bar, I added 5% coconut so its a tiny bit cleansing but not too much. I also lowered to SF to 3 so there isn't too much residue left behind.
> 
> You need to make a regular shampoo bar and stick with it for at least two months before you decide if you like it or not. I think genny's recipe is really good for fine hair. I have crazy wild frizzy hair but its fine and gets weighed down easily. Its actually under more control and my curls are more defined sine I started using poo bars about 10 months ago.



The weird thing was it was only on the back of my head. I don't think I got enough soap in that spot or something.  Maybe I needed more soap. The SF was 6%, I think co and po where both at 2%, then I had caster 5% and she at 15% I think..


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## Obsidian (Jul 15, 2014)

_For every 1000 grams of oils, you would add 10 g of citric acid and 6 g of extra lye to your water solution to create sodium citrate without extra superfat._


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## CanaDawn (Jul 15, 2014)

Bex1982 said:


> The weird thing was it was only on the back of my head. I don't think I got enough soap in that spot or something.  Maybe I needed more soap. The SF was 6%, I think co and po where both at 2%, then I had caster 5% and she at 15% I think..



is "she" shea butter?  I find that very "clingy" and dislike it in soap.  2% CO or 20% (which makes more sense to me)?

I think it's a technique issue rather than an oils issue (re the spot on the back of your head).  Make sure you rinse well, since soap left in will be "gummy".  Also, if you try an acid rinse, try a squeeze bottle with a small tip (like used for dye) and run the solution along your scalp.  I found those two things made a big difference, too.

I would have said you need a break in or trial period, but once I tried an acid rinse, there was no "break in" at all, and I've never looked back.  Prior to that point, I had greasy/heavy feeling hair when I used soap on my hair.  I find it is the acid rinse that made the difference.

I don't know about using the acid in the soap itself, vs just rinsing to directly "chemistry" on the hair shaft, since as stated the pH can't go too low without the soap just not being soap anymore, and the hairshaft needs the acid restored after soap.  I'm not sure how well the soap with additive compares to additives to adjust the water and then soap.  My sense is that the additives being separate would work better, but I have never bothered to make shampoo bars once things started to work well for me (ie as soon as I started using vinegar)


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 15, 2014)

I really wish I could use shampoo bars on my hair but they just don't seem to work . It sucks living with hard water, my hair feels a bit greasy and not clean with soap scum eww. Maybe I haven't found the right recipe but I want to be able to go without vinegar, it stinks. I don't care what people say, I can still smell it on my hair. Especially this time of year when I sweat it smells like pickle juice


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## Bex1982 (Jul 15, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> is "she" shea butter?  I find that very "clingy" and dislike it in soap.  2% CO or 20%



Yeah stupid typos  shea butter and 20% co


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## Bex1982 (Jul 15, 2014)

MagicalMysterySoap said:


> I really wish I could use shampoo bars on my hair but they just don't seem to work . It sucks living with hard water, my hair feels a bit greasy and not clean with soap scum eww. Maybe I haven't found the right recipe but I want to be able to go without vinegar, it stinks. I don't care what people say, I can still smell it on my hair. Especially this time of year when I sweat it smells like pickle juice



Maybe my water is hard too. I know you can add citric acid to water, im just not sure the ratio (to use as rinse). Some people use lemon juice too.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 15, 2014)

MagicalMysterySoap said:


> I really wish I could use shampoo bars on my hair but they just don't seem to work . It sucks living with hard water, my hair feels a bit greasy and not clean with soap scum eww. Maybe I haven't found the right recipe but I want to be able to go without vinegar, it stinks. I don't care what people say, I can still smell it on my hair. Especially this time of year when I sweat it smells like pickle juice


 
Lemon juice or citric acid powder also work.  (citric acid powder works very well for hard water, 1/2 - 3/4 teaspoon in a quart although some people say that much in a gallon instead.  Experiment.  Less is probably better.)


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## coffeetime (Jul 16, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> _For every 1000 grams of oils, you would add 10 g of citric acid and 6 g of extra lye to your water solution to create sodium citrate without extra superfat._




Ok, I found some info online that said that lemon juice is 5-6% citric acid and that the juice of one average lemon contains about 3g of citric acid. My 2lb soap recipe has about 670 g of oils. Which would need 6.7 g of citric acid (the juice from two lemons) and roughly 4g extra lye? Does that math work? I'm on my phone so I can't use the calculator at the same time. I usually superfat at 6-7% so there's a good margin for error if I'm off by a gram of lye. I have some lemons in the fruit basket as we speak so I will try it tomorrow and see what I get.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 16, 2014)

I found something on the forum about adding citric acid to soaps which is interesting.  


IrishLass said:


> From all I've read, the main reason that some add citric acid (sodium citrate) to their soaps seems to be that it acts as a chelator which helps to cut down on the soap scum that forms in your shower/tub from using the soap. Adding tetrasodium EDTA will do that as well.
> 
> 
> IrishLass
> ...


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## CanaDawn (Jul 16, 2014)

coffeetime said:


> Ok, I found some info online that said that lemon juice is 5-6% citric acid and that the juice of one average lemon contains about 3g of citric acid. My 2lb soap recipe has about 670 g of oils. Which would need 6.7 g of citric acid (the juice from two lemons) and roughly 4g extra lye? Does that math work? I'm on my phone so I can't use the calculator at the same time. I usually superfat at 6-7% so there's a good margin for error if I'm off by a gram of lye. I have some lemons in the fruit basket as we speak so I will try it tomorrow and see what I get.



Just to clarify, are you thinking of adding lemon juice or powdered citric acid?


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## coffeetime (Jul 16, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> Just to clarify, are you thinking of adding lemon juice or powdered citric acid?




Lemon juice.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 16, 2014)

Ok, this time I used my honey beer soap, its more bubbly than the other 2 I tried. 
This time I parted it in 2, I washed the back of my head really well, then the front, top and sides. 
I used a white vinegar rinse I had made a while back (not sure why I added witch hazel) and put conditioner on the ends (fried from coloring). 
Almost no hair fall.  Somd tangles but not bad. Hair super shiny and very soft, nicer than when I use shampoo,  also less frizzy.  Hair color intact.  Clean no oil or grease. Verdict is I cant complain.  
Now I just need to come up with a formula specifically for hair, but until then I'll just use the honey beer soap.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 16, 2014)

Bex1982 said:


> Ok, this time I used my honey beer soap, its more bubbly than the other 2 I tried.
> This time I parted it in 2, I washed the back of my head really well, then the front, top and sides.
> I used a white vinegar rinse I had made a while back (not sure why I added witch hazel) and put conditioner on the ends (fried from coloring).
> Almost no hair fall.  Somd tangles but not bad. Hair super shiny and very soft, nicer than when I use shampoo,  also less frizzy.  Hair color intact.  Clean no oil or grease. Verdict is I cant complain.
> Now I just need to come up with a formula specifically for hair, but until then I'll just use the honey beer soap.




sounds great.   You might find the tangles lessen as you use this method, and the lifted hair scales lay flatter and flatter, so they aren't so "velcro"y.

witch hazel is astringent, so it might help with oiliness?  I dont' know if it has hair specific properties (but I've always liked its odour!)


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## Bex1982 (Jul 16, 2014)

That's good. So it gets better as it goes on? Maybe I wont need conditioner in a few weeks. 
I had also added bergamot essential oil, I read something about it being good for your scalp. It did mask the vinegar smell a bit. I can't smell any of it now, not even the essential oil. My hair is still a little fluffy/frizzy but way less than usual. I just put a dab of argon oil hair cream and it fixed it.


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## Obsidian (Jul 16, 2014)

When my hair is excessively frizzy, I use a dab of shea body butter on the ends.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 16, 2014)

Bex1982 said:


> That's good. So it gets better as it goes on? Maybe I wont need conditioner in a few weeks.
> I had also added bergamot essential oil, I read something about it being good for your scalp. It did mask the vinegar smell a bit. I can't smell any of it now, not even the essential oil. My hair is still a little fluffy/frizzy but way less than usual. I just put a dab of argon oil hair cream and it fixed it.



It might get better, I can really only speak from my own experience.  I never use conditioner anymore, and have no problem combing through, and my hair feels completely different now (sort of...plastic, in a good way.  Very smooth and "hard" somehow)

See how it goes over a week, now that it's working.  There's a hair forum called the Long Hair Community (LHC) that has heaps of hair information, if you wanted to search there for more ideas.  between the soap experts and the hair pros you'd be sure to find something that worked.


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## eucalypta (Jul 16, 2014)

> I've put off making my own because all of the ones I've tried have made my hair *dry and dull*. However, now I know to use an acid rinse after.
> Ive been doing co-washing but it often leaves my hair limp, mine is on the fine side and curly.


 
 The main reasons not to make and use CP shampoo bars (or liquid soap), is that it leaves "soap scum" in your hair, that is not easliy rinsed out, and that you can't put in the necessary goodies, because they suffer from, or won't survive, the lye.
 The SF should do the trick according to those in favor of CP shampoo, but the major part of it will be rinsed off.
 (Persons whomight like the CP soap attack on their hair, are men - or people with short hair in general - because it will feel like their hair is firmer/thicker.)

 So I decided to make syndet shampoo bars, based on mild surfactants and with the possibiity of adding all the goodies I want (like panthenol, burdock root, horse tail, you name it).
 I'm happy, customers are happy.

 I love "natural" products and ingredients,  but I think we could put to use the best of two worlds.
 We've got the technology.

 You might want to visit Swiftcraftymonkey's blog; she's the shampoo guru!


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## CanaDawn (Jul 17, 2014)

eh.  soap "scum" is dealt with via the acid rinse as is the "soap attack" (assuming you mean the alkali affect on the hair).  My hair is nearly to my waist, and I'm not a man, so there goes that theory.  My hair is better now with soap and vinegar than it has been since I was a child, it has stopped falling out in handfuls (which it did no matter how mild the shampoo I tried), and it shines like crazy.  If I felt any "goodies" were "necessary" I would add them to a rinse, where they wouldn't get washed off like a soap or shampoo.  I've tried very hard to stick to "my experience is" in this thread, but I must say that mine has been nothing like the unpleasantness you suggest, and the quoted post is clear that there is no rinse being used that would in all probability reduce or remove any drying or dulling effects.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 17, 2014)

The first try was with a burts bees shampoo bar and no acid rinse. It went ok for a few washes. But eventually dried and dulled my hair. 
I have used a syndet bar and I liked it but I'd rather get away from the synthetics if possible,  well as many as I can get away from, I know I still use them. 
I really need something to combat hair falling out, I already have hypothyroidism which causes hair loss and I can tell right away if something will cause my hair to fall out bc it comes out in bunches. I didn’t have that with the soap so id really love if I could get it to work. 
I'll try the week and see. If my hair gets weird I'll just have to go back to my other shamp or co-washing.


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## DeliaRana (Jul 18, 2014)

I started using shampoo bars about 8 months ago.  They are what got me interested in soap making. The best advice I can give is start with one recipe and make a 1 lb batch. Use it for a couple weeks to a month and see how your hair reacts. Then change the recipe to suit the needs of your hair.  I went through several versions of a recipe before I found one I like. I now use my shampoo bars exclusively, with no conditioner or vinegar rinse. If my hair starts to feel dry or frizzy(mostly from blow drying) I use a couple drops of camellia seed oil.  Don't give up, you may just have to tweak a recipe to suit your needs.


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## DawninWA (Jul 18, 2014)

I made some 100% olive oil soap and use that for my hair (my scalp hates coconut).  I used vinegar or ascorbic acid rinses for the first few weeks, but I missed conditioner.  So I tried conditioner as a rinse, works perfectly for me.  I use a tresemme silicone free conditioner.  I dilute about a tbsp or 2 in a cup of water (it's really thick conditioner, and lasts forever this way).

I liquify the soap (1 4oz bar to about 6 cups water - not all soaps liquefy well), it works better for me that way.


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## eucalypta (Jul 18, 2014)

Excessive hairloss is a medical condition; often hormonal - like as after giving birth.
 Stress also could be a factor as well as general health.
 You can't prevent nor cure hairloss using  shampoos.

 Anyhow, everyone has his preferences; I respect that.


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## Susie (Jul 18, 2014)

It is true that you can't fix hair _loss_ with a shampoo.  However, you can address hair _breakage_ with shampoo, rinse, conditioner, other hair products, and how you choose to style your hair.  Most people can't differentiate between those two.  They see more hair in their brush or on their hands and/or clothing, and they are _losing _ hair.  So, it simply semantics.

While I absolutely support everyone's right to an opinion, using pejorative language is not conducive to helping people learn, in my _most_ humble opinion.


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## FGOriold (Jul 18, 2014)

Just like with every other type of hair care or skin care product, what works for one does not always work for another.  There is a lot of talk about the higher pH of shampoo bars or liquid shampoo made with lye and it's negative effects on hair in lifting the cuticle - but that is to be weighed with how a detergent based product can also affect the hair due to the oftentimes harsh ingredients - even if is is pH balanced (balanced to what too?).  You are also using water (average pH of 7) to mix with any hair or skin cleanser you use and to rinse out said cleansers and I have yet to get a definitive answer from chemists in the field as to how the water pH affects the overall product pH when said product is being used as directed.  

The science says that your acid mantle has a specific pH in the acidic range and we should not be using high pH products on it, but they also cannot dispute the facts that many peoples skin benefits from using a quality cold process soap - skin that may have suffered greatly from using even the mildest (and pH balanced) commercial cleansers.  I personally could never go back to commercial skin cleansers after seeing and feeling the difference on my own skin.  Maybe the biggest problem and the most concern is with a high pH product that is left on the skin or hair and is not a rinse off product.

As for shampoo bars, all I can say is I have been using them for 2 years and I get lots of compliments on my hair and every time I go in for hair services (color, cut) I ask my hairdresser how my hair looks and how the color is holding up from her perspective - and it is all good.  As for my business, I make about 8 different shampoo bars and they are my best sellers.  Hair care products outsell any other product that I offer and I oftentimes cannot keep up with the demand and am constantly making batch after batch of shampoo bars and I still run out.  I have repeat customers who have been buying them for several years too.

So, as with every thing in life - do what works for you and don't assume what does not work for you based on your experience or research does not work for anyone else.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 18, 2014)

eucalypta said:


> Excessive hairloss is a medical condition; often hormonal - like as after giving birth.
> Stress also could be a factor as well as general health.
> You can't prevent nor cure hairloss using  shampoos.
> 
> Anyhow, everyone has his preferences; I respect that.



I definitely stopped hair loss by switching to soap.  I have a hormonal condition, but the difference happened immediately on changing to soap.  It was not hair breakage, as the root of the hair was visible on the lost hair.  I now lose a normal amount of hair (a small number in my comb and not gobs and handfuls throughout the day, to the point that I fear cooking for others, and can scrape a clump off my clothing at any time).  The ONLY change was shampoo to soap and vinegar.  And it was immediate and sustained.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 18, 2014)

FGOriold said:


> You are also using water (average pH of 7) to mix with any hair or skin cleanser you use and to rinse out said cleansers and I have yet to get a definitive answer from chemists in the field as to how the water pH affects the overall product pH when said product is being used as directed.



Really?  Because I'm sure most could talk about the presence or absence of buffering components in the water or product, etc and how that may affect a product, as well as the mineral salt content and its reactivity.  I'm surprised no one you have spoken to has been able to address the question.  There's not a "definitive" single answer, but there are lots of things that could be explained and considered.  Buffers are weird chemistry though, for sure.



FGOriold said:


> The science says that your acid mantle has a specific pH in the acidic range and we should not be using high pH products on it, but they also cannot dispute the facts that many peoples skin benefits from using a quality cold process soap - skin that may have suffered greatly from using even the mildest (and pH balanced) commercial cleansers.  I personally could never go back to commercial skin cleansers after seeing and feeling the difference on my own skin.  Maybe the biggest problem and the most concern is with a high pH product that is left on the skin or hair and is not a rinse off product.



I think you hit the nail on the head re leaving ON a high pH product, vs rinsing and neutralising (because there IS an effect of a high pH, which should be considered in troubleshooting a routine).  Your skin also works as its own buffering system, so it can tolerate a range of pH and return to normal balance, although it obviously has its limitations for extremes.  

I agree with most of what you wrote in this post, and certainly have found my experience lines up with yours, but I think much of the chemistry can be explained by widening  the view to the whole system being used (and accepting there is individual variations within a range of normal).


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## Bex1982 (Jul 18, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> I definitely stopped hair loss by switching to soap.  I have a hormonal condition, but the difference happened immediately on changing to soap.  It was not hair breakage, as the root of the hair was visible on the lost hair.  I now lose a normal amount of hair (a small number in my comb and not gobs and handfuls throughout the day, to the point that I fear cooking for others, and can scrape a clump off my clothing at any time).  The ONLY change was shampoo to soap and vinegar.  And it was immediate and sustained.



I can relate. I need a product because I have hypothyroidism. And yes, just tons of hair falls out. When I used the soap these 3 times there was way less. Like you, I can see the roots attached to the hairs in the brush also. When I use Organix brand my hair falls out like crazy, it also strips my color so there must be something harsh in there!! And it's considered a good sulfate free poo. So I can't blame it on sulfates. When I use the brand Shea Moisture my hair doesn't fall out as much but it leaves my hair feeling weird, frizzy I guess. 
I think my hair is just barely hanging on by the roots and anything it doesn't like will just cause it to fall out. Not strongly rooted.
I'm also unsure of the ph, but it seems that if it's neutralized fairy fast there wouldn’t be much to worry about.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 19, 2014)

Bex1982 said:


> I'm also unsure of the ph, but it seems that if it's neutralized fairy fast there wouldn’t be much to worry about.



This is my understanding, and my experience.  Honestly my hair has doubled in thickness - as in the number of hairs at full length, not the size of the hair shaft, although that has improved as well.  I french braided it down the back today and for the first time in many many years it's a full braid starting high on my head, not a few feeble crosses before it tapers off to a ratty braid.  

If your soap is properly made in a normal way, with the right level of lye, and you use a mild diluted acid rinse, I would expect you find a change for the better.  Whether or not a special formulation for hair is required is something I couldn't speak to from experience, but something I doubt is truly "necessary".  YMMV.


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## kmarvel (Jul 20, 2014)

Magic,  I have the same concerns.  why would I use a shampoo bar of soap on my hair only to rinse it with some type of vinegar or citric acid base stuff??  I would like to start making shampoo bars but the rinse part truly turns me off.  Is there a poo bar recipe out there that you DON'T have to use a rinse after??
 Kathie


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## seven (Jul 20, 2014)

^^^
Put some dl panthenol perhaps? Soapqueen has a recipe for a poo bar with dlp.


Sent from my iPhone using Soap Making


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## Dahila (Jul 20, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> I definitely stopped hair loss by switching to soap.  I have a hormonal condition, but the difference happened immediately on changing to soap.  It was not hair breakage, as the root of the hair was visible on the lost hair.  I now lose a normal amount of hair (a small number in my comb and not gobs and handfuls throughout the day, to the point that I fear cooking for others, and can scrape a clump off my clothing at any time).  The ONLY change was shampoo to soap and vinegar.  And it was immediate and sustained.



Here the same.  I was losing my hair and my confidence too.  Maybe 3 washes with Genny or rather Linda shampoo bar it stopped.  
My hair is very fine,  no problem after washing with shampoo bar, easy to manage and color is keeping pretty good. 
I will consider Obsidian suggestion and add tiny bit of CO..to the next one.  My shampoo bar had not gelled, it was my second soap and I was terrified of screwing it up.  I made it on very low temps like 35 Celsius.  The bar was very soft, but right now after 4 or 5 months it is hard and bubbles are pretty good.  
I am allergic to most of commercial products, have always been.  Making my own is a blessing, and fun 
BTW thanks to everyone for the advice


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## CanaDawn (Jul 20, 2014)

kmarvel said:


> Magic,  I have the same concerns.  why would I use a shampoo bar of soap on my hair only to rinse it with some type of vinegar or citric acid base stuff??  I would like to start making shampoo bars but the rinse part truly turns me off.  Is there a poo bar recipe out there that you DON'T have to use a rinse after??
> Kathie




Because of the chemistry of putting an alkali on your hair and  scalp, which should be at least neutral, if not slightly acidic.  

You rinse ALL soaps and shampoos, don't you?  And then on your hair use conditioner?  Same same.  Why do you object to using a rinse?  

You are not going to make an acidic soap.  
If  you find a bar that *your* hair likes, or if your water reacts with the  soap, you may not have to rinse with a neutralising rinse, but all soap  is alkali, and your hair is not designed to be alkali.  It's just not.


----------



## CanaDawn (Jul 20, 2014)

I also thought of something else that might be a factor:  hair length.

Hair is dead.  It can't buffer or adjust itself, it is reliant on what is put on it (oil from scalp, hair products, etc) to stay intact and "healthy".

Shorter hair is a) cut more often, so any damage is removed, and b) close enough to the scalp to benefit more from the skin's built-in buffering and protection and oils.  After about ear length, that benefit is pretty much lost, and care and handling become more crucial to its appearance and strength.

Soap is for cleaning.  It's not a leave-on product, so rinsing it off is normal.  If you need to adjust the performance (hair hard to comb, or dull, etc), you are most likely in need of an acidic follow up.  Call it conditioner, if that helps.

The talk about soap scum etc made me think about this, in relation to hair.  We don't talk about soap scum on skin, or object to rinsing, but we want hair to behave differently, so we have to treat it differently, and consider that it cannot adjust its chemistry itself like skin can.  Hair and skin have tolerances to pH that are best kept within a certain range, so with soap (always alkaline) for hair, we have to neutralise, and for skin, we need to provide enough SF or reduce the cleansing enough to let the skin adjust the pH in time to avoid damage.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 20, 2014)

Right, most shampoos leave your hair dry and you have to follow up with a conditioner. 
I put my acid rinse in a spray bottle, a dark tinted one with a lid on it. It's acidic so I very highly doubt anything will grow in there, especially since i am not removing the lid and allowing air in the container. It's like when people make their own toners and they add vinegar and water, it doesn't go bad as far as I know. Besides the rinse is a wash off product so I doubt it will give me moldy scalp or something outrageous. Anyway, that's easy enough, just as easy as conditioner. Conditioner also has citric acid in it to make hair shinier, make the cuticles lay flat etc. Shampoo is damaging your hair while it's cleansing it. 
Hair likes an acidic ph and there is are no natural shampoo bars that are acidic. Even lowering the ph of shampoo bars won't really make much difference since you follow up with an acid wash anyway. JMO.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 20, 2014)

You definitely won't go moldy  , even if you didn't rinse off the vinegar (not everyone does rinse it off, I guess). Just make small batches of rinse, and don't worry about it.    Vinegar is made by things growing in juice, but you are designed not to be sterile.    And generally what grows in vinegar is GOOD for you.  

Obviously, for some people, maybe their hair and water and soap will all work together happily, or the slight damage of an alkali won't show on their thick hair like it does on my fine strands, or they have shorter hair that gets cut more and they can blissfully not use an acidic rinse but for me it makes all the difference in the world (and we're not talking glacial acid here, but a highly-diluted moderate-pH solution).


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## Dahila (Jul 21, 2014)

Maybe that stupid question; but...What proportion of AC to water for hair rince? 
It makes sense to rinse with vinegar.   
I remember my mom always rinsed my hair with it..


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## kmarvel (Jul 21, 2014)

CanaDawn,  I rinse after I shower and shampoo my hair.  I do not use a conditioner on my hair.


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## Obsidian (Jul 21, 2014)

I use 1/4-1/2 teaspoon vinegar to 1 cup water. Sometimes I rinse it out, sometimes I leave it.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 21, 2014)

kmarvel said:


> CanaDawn,  I rinse after I shower and shampoo my hair.  I do not use a conditioner on my hair.



Well ok.  I'm sure you've heard of it though.

The chemistry is sound.  There's lots of people happy with the method and the science.  If you're not - do something else.  I'm not sure what your objection is, but clearly you're firm in your distaste for using a rinse.  It's not my job or my interest to convince you to do something you find distasteful, now that the reasoning for the choice has been explained.

Good luck! :smile:


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## soapysarah (Jul 21, 2014)

I've just made my first green tea and soapnuts shampoo bar and it is proving to be really good.  I warned my husband that it would not make foam like a commercial shampoo...his head disappeared under a mountain of bubbles!  (I've become a soapnuts fan.)

I'm not an experienced soaper but started playing around with soap a year or so ago when I studied aromatherapy and haven't bought soap since.  I love cooking and this is just a variation for me.  I've not made the transition to commerical production because of the cost and regulations involved.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 21, 2014)

This thread has inspired me to make some shampoo bars. I thought I just couldn't use them due to my hard water but hearing people have success even with hard water, makes me happy. I bought some Citric Acid because I can't stand the smell of vinegar and now I am off to soapcalc to create some recipes and experiment to see what works best with my hair  I'm excited!


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## Bex1982 (Jul 21, 2014)

soapysarah said:


> I've just made my first green tea and soapnuts shampoo bar and it is proving to be really good.  I warned my husband that it would not make foam like a commercial shampoo...his head disappeared under a mountain of bubbles!  (I've become a soapnuts fan.)



Did you put the soap nuts in CP soap, or how do you use them/it?


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## Dahila (Jul 21, 2014)

Thank you Obsidian, thank you very much :clap:


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## Obsidian (Jul 22, 2014)

Another tip for the vinegar rinse. Keep a small bottle of apple cider vinegar in the shower with a 8 oz yogurt cup. You can quickly mix a fresh batch of warm rinse every shower. I used to keep remixed rinse in the shower but it was always too cold.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 23, 2014)

I just made my first shampoo bar yesterday ~ so excited to use it and let my friends/fam test it out n get some feedback.  I made a 20 oz batch which came to 9 bars. Three are super ugly so those will be mine and I'll give the other six away. Just impatient and it will be hard for me to wait some weeks to try it out...


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## beckster51 (Jul 24, 2014)

Bex1982 said:


> I can relate. I need a product because I have hypothyroidism. And yes, just tons of hair falls out. When I used the soap these 3 times there was way less. Like you, I can see the roots attached to the hairs in the brush also. When I use Organix brand my hair falls out like crazy, it also strips my color so there must be something harsh in there!! And it's considered a good sulfate free poo. So I can't blame it on sulfates. When I use the brand Shea Moisture my hair doesn't fall out as much but it leaves my hair feeling weird, frizzy I guess.
> I think my hair is just barely hanging on by the roots and anything it doesn't like will just cause it to fall out. Not strongly rooted.
> I'm also unsure of the ph, but it seems that if it's neutralized fairy fast there wouldn’t be much to worry about.


I'm late to the party here, just joined the forum.  I have fine, thin hair that has been falling out due to keratoses on my scalp, and of course it is all in the front center - yikes.  I am in my early 60's.  I started using shampoo bars about 3 months ago, then about 2 months ago, I started mixing up ACV with herbs for a rinse. I am currently using ACV with sage infused in it. I now have growth that is about 1/2 inch long where I was bald before, and I have a lot less falling out.  It may be that some of us are allergic to something in synthetic shampoos. I have used many types of shampoo and nothing helped. Shampoo bars to the rescue! The one I favor has babassu oil in it.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 24, 2014)

That's awesome Beckster51, I'm so happy your hair is growing back :clap: I'm glad you found a bar that works for you. It's been about a week since i've been using soap to wash my hair and so far so good


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## Dahila (Jul 24, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> I definitely stopped hair loss by switching to soap. I have a hormonal condition, but the difference happened immediately on changing to soap. It was not hair breakage, as the root of the hair was visible on the lost hair. I now lose a normal amount of hair (a small number in my comb and not gobs and handfuls throughout the day, to the point that I fear cooking for others, and can scrape a clump off my clothing at any time). The ONLY change was shampoo to soap and vinegar. And it was immediate and sustained.


*I agree!!!! *
I had the same situation, my hair was falling like crazy, all tests came negative, so the stress is probably the quilty one
I made gennys shampoo bar and started to use it, I am using it from December 2013, and so far so good. I added AC rince also for the last two weeks my hair is really shiny, even with the need for color.  It does not fall out anymore, just few when i wash it
I am allergic to a lot of chemicals and medications.   My mom was washing my hair with CP soap and vinegar rince and it was a wonderful hair, even baby thin, and no itching scalp.  
I have no doubts that chemicals in shampoo (I used Nioxin for visibly thining hair #4)were one of the cause of my hair falling.
My soaps plus my lotions and I do not need any meds for my sensitive skin...
I love Susan but as someone said (I think it was Sussie) everyone is different and we have the right to share our expierences 
:mrgreen:
uff my longest post.....


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## Dahila (Jul 28, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> Another tip for the vinegar rinse. Keep a small bottle of apple cider vinegar in the shower with a 8 oz yogurt cup. You can quickly mix a fresh batch of warm rinse every shower. I used to keep remixed rinse in the shower but it was always too cold.


This is exactly what I do, I use one quart plastic jar and mix it when I am ready to rince my hair


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## Antonia (Jul 28, 2014)

Hi there,

I am relatively new in soapmaking, but I have already switched all the way to soap. Of course one of my first challenges was switching shampoo. I did not want to risk being disappointed with my own experiments so I purchased an artisan shampoo bar which sounded pretty nice (argan oil, shea butter, high superfat, pretty expensive also). I have very fine shoulder length hair which turns greasy within 24h (I usually wash every day) and I was not happy with this shampoo bar at all. My hair was dull and hard and did not feel clean at all, it felt like loads of soap scum was building within just one-two washes, even though I used ACV rinse. Luckily I had made a basic soap recipe and I decided to give it a try on my hair. It was not perfect but it was much better than the old one - less superfat and less clinging oils worked great on my fine hair. Meanwhile I had made Humblebee's "All in one soap", I tried it on my hair and it worked like a charm. My hair looks and feels great, I use it almost every day (followed by a simple ACV rinse that I mix in the shower) - my hair has more body and is sturdier than ever. Nowadays sometimes I wash every second day and even though my hair does not look fantastic on the second day, it is not awful. Even though I aim to try different recipes because I am still a newbie and want to experiment, I still come back to this recipe because it works so well and I love the fact that I can have only one bar of soap in my shower. I am still looking for an amazing shampoo bar recipe, but I am currently happy with the result. I just though it was worth sharing my experience, I hope that you will end up with a shampoo bar that you love.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 28, 2014)

So I have made a small batch of soap to use on my hair.  I have used it 2 times already and my hair feels clean, no soap scum since I rinse with citric acid and I don't have dandruff anymore (yay!). I absolutely love it but there is one issue, I am getting a lot of hair fall out when I use it. Is there anyway to stop this? I don't want to stop using it but I am scared that my hair will thin out if I continue with it


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## CanaDawn (Jul 28, 2014)

Can't really help much, MagicalMysterySoap, because using soap STOPPED my hairloss.  Citric acid is quite powerful, so you could try cutting back the strength of that and see if it helps?

Antonia, good to hear re Humblebee's recipe, I follow Marie and just hadn't tried it yet, but I am having some trouble getting the superfat/conditioning right (and I keep feeling that although CO soap was working I "should" try something else....  ) so I will try her bar next.  (Need to make soap anyhow)


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 28, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> Can't really help much, MagicalMysterySoap, because using soap STOPPED my hairloss.  Citric acid is quite powerful, so you could try cutting back the strength of that and see if it helps?
> 
> Antonia, good to hear re Humblebee's recipe, I follow Marie and just hadn't tried it yet, but I am having some trouble getting the superfat/conditioning right (and I keep feeling that although CO soap was working I "should" try something else....  ) so I will try her bar next.  (Need to make soap anyhow)



 I use the tiniest amount of CA, plus my hair loss happens when I am scrubbing my hair and rinsing the shampoo off of my head so the Citric isn't the culprit.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 28, 2014)

MagicalMysterySoap said:


> I use the tiniest amount of CA, plus my hair loss happens when I am scrubbing my hair and rinsing the shampoo off of my head so the Citric isn't the culprit.



hmm...the obvious question...are you scrubbing too hard?

Soap's not the answer for everyone, maybe it won't be ok for you.  Have you tried a few types of soap?


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 29, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> hmm...the obvious question...are you scrubbing too hard?
> 
> Soap's not the answer for everyone, maybe it won't be ok for you.  Have you tried a few types of soap?



I haven't paid attention to how I scrub, but next time, I'll be more aware and be gentler if I am rough. I feel like more falls off due to the alkaline nature of the soap which causes i
my hair gets matted more easily. No, this is only one recipe, I will try to experiment more. The one that I am using is 19% castor, 19% Co, and 62% olive. Maybe my hair needs to adjust? I will give it more time and see how it turns out. Thank you for trying to help me out


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## CanaDawn (Jul 29, 2014)

hm.  I don't know too much about formulation, but it might be the castor oil at that high percentage?  I hope someone more expert on the topic will chime in.

Is it breaking from being matted from the soap and scrubbed or falling out at the root?  Was it healthy hair to start with?  Coloured/processed?


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 29, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> hm.  I don't know too much about formulation, but it might be the castor oil at that high percentage?  I hope someone more expert on the topic will chime in.
> 
> Is it breaking from being matted from the soap and scrubbed or falling out at the root?  Was it healthy hair to start with?  Coloured/processed?



I will formulate another recipe with a lower castor percentage but from what I read, high castor is favored in shampoo bars. 
My hair isn't breaking, it's falling from the root. Yes my hair is really healthy and I don't color it. My original shampoo is a trader joe's one and I never got as much fall out as I am getting with the shampoo bar.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 29, 2014)

Sorry, I don't have other ideas.  I hope someone else chimes in.


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## Obsidian (Jul 29, 2014)

19% coconut oil is really high for a shampoo bar. You want a low cleansing bar so the natural oils aren't stripped away. I use a modified version of genny's recipe. If you don't want to use the neem, replace it with OO or avocado. SF 3%.

If you hair is really matted, try a stronger vinegar rinse. I normally use 1/4 tsp per cup of water but I've used up to 2 TB per cup of water. Too much castor can make your hair sticky so that could be part of the problem.

OO  40%
Castor  10%
Avocado  30%
Shea 10%
Coconut 5%
Neem  5%


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## CanaDawn (Jul 29, 2014)

again...it all depends.
I used another bar much lower in CO than usual, and this morning went back to a bar that is 80% CO and my hair is better than it's been in a few weeks.

For me, personally, with fine hair, all that low cleansing and high conditioning just leaves me an unhappy greaseball, where a SF CO bar (with a little castor and olive) and a vinegar rinse leave me with clean, shiny hair that can actually move.    If a standard bar isn't working as advertised, there's nothing at all wrong with trying different things.

I agree though, if it's matting because of the soap, try either a stronger citric acid rinse, a vinegar rinse, or a different acid (lemon juice, different type of vinegar) - I can't comb mine if the acid rinse isn't done, and citric acid was weird on my hair.

Do you have a list of the Trader Joe bar ingredients?  Was it soap or syndet?


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 29, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> 19% coconut oil is really high for a shampoo bar. You want a low cleansing bar so the natural oils aren't stripped away. I use a modified version of genny's recipe. If you don't want to use the neem, replace it with OO or avocado. SF 3%.
> 
> If you hair is really matted, try a stronger vinegar rinse. I normally use 1/4 tsp per cup of water but I've used up to 2 TB per cup of water. Too much castor can make your hair sticky so that could be part of the problem.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I will formulate a low cleansing one also and see how that works. 



CanaDawn said:


> again...it all depends.
> I used another bar much lower in CO than usual, and this morning went back to a bar that is 80% CO and my hair is better than it's been in a few weeks.
> 
> For me, personally, with fine hair, all that low cleansing and high conditioning just leaves me an unhappy greaseball, where a SF CO bar (with a little castor and olive) and a vinegar rinse leave me with clean, shiny hair that can actually move.    If a standard bar isn't working as advertised, there's nothing at all wrong with trying different things.
> ...


I'll also consider one with 80% coconut oil and see how that works. Do you know the percentage of sf for that one? I'll keep messing with the amount of Citric and see if it helps. I washed my hair today and the hair fall out was less than before so maybe my hair needed to adjust. 

Oh the TJ  shampoo is not actual soap, it's liquid normal shampoo that's sulfate free.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 29, 2014)

So the shampoo bar I made last week totally sucks. I didn’t try it on my hair because it's not cured yet but I checked the lather by washing my hands.  
For one, the essential oils and lemon fragrance really clash IMO it's a bit gross smelling.  
For two, the lather is not dense at all and the was the problem with the first bar I tried, it hardly lathered and my hair stayed oily. 
Like I said, it's still curing so I can't say for sure. 

Avocado 20%
Castor 15%
CO 20%
OO 15%
PO 18.5% 
Shea 11% 
Stearic .5% 

Mint, lavender and patchouli e-oil. Lemon FO.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 29, 2014)

MagicalMysterySoap said:


> I'll also consider one with 80% coconut oil and see how that works. Do you know the percentage of sf for that one? I'll keep messing with the amount of Citric and see if it helps. I washed my hair today and the hair fall out was less than before so maybe my hair needed to adjust.
> 
> Oh the TJ  shampoo is not actual soap, it's liquid normal shampoo that's sulfate free.



I'm not saying you should go that high with CO,  and I hesitate to because the general wisdom is that that is far too high   My hair gets greasy feeling if I use a more conditioning bar, but I suspect that high a CO is not "normal".   My point really was that whatever is the "norm" will only work for the majority of users, and if it isn't working, it's ok to experiment with other formulas or try different things.  

How is your hair once it's dry, when you wash with soap?

The other thing I was thinking about this afternoon:  Soap will act differently to shampoo, and your scalp oil/sebum is maybe being removed differently, and "releasing" hair that is not actively growing.  I'm just guessing though, and you'll know best what sort of thing is going on.  If it's getting less, it could just be an adjustment period.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 29, 2014)

Bex1982 said:


> So the shampoo bar I made last week totally sucks.



Aw, that's too bad.    Give it a longer cure (isn't that the solution to most soap problems?   ) and see what it's like...maybe the smell will settle down too.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 29, 2014)

Yeah,  I'll try again when it's cured. I have about 9 bars thinking I would have a nice stash for myself and some for friends.  It's nice and conditioning on my hands,  I just don't think it's cleansing enough for my type of hair.  
If it doesn't work for me after the cure, I'll just give them away as "herbal hand soap" since I really don't need more soap and pretty much use only 3 types of my soaps on a regular basis,  the rest are things other people like.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 29, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> I'm not saying you should go that high with CO,  and I hesitate to because the general wisdom is that that is far too high   My hair gets greasy feeling if I use a more conditioning bar, but I suspect that high a CO is not "normal".   My point really was that whatever is the "norm" will only work for the majority of users, and if it isn't working, it's ok to experiment with other formulas or try different things.
> 
> How is your hair once it's dry, when you wash with soap?
> 
> The other thing I was thinking about this afternoon:  Soap will act differently to shampoo, and your scalp oil/sebum is maybe being removed differently, and "releasing" hair that is not actively growing.  I'm just guessing though, and you'll know best what sort of thing is going on.  If it's getting less, it could just be an adjustment period.


Well I am willing to try different recipes because I really want to stop buying shampoo and just make my own. I have oily hair too and I hope the low cleansing high conditioning will work with my hair but if not I am willing to try a high coconut oil one. 

My hair has been fine the last few washes but today it is looking kinda dull and not feeling so soft. I brushed my dry hair just now and there is like whitish soap scum looking stuff on my brush, gross. I hate having really hard water.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 29, 2014)

I have more residue on my brushes with soap too, but my hair seems fine/better/stronger, so I'm assuming shampoo just stripped off all that natural oil.  I also was trying a different bar that is lower cleansing (I don't like that bar on my face or hair, but it's fine on my body and for shaving), and had an increase in residue while using that bar.

Another thing I am noticing is that my hair dries much faster now.  I think it is less porous than before, but that's just a guess.

Another thought....maybe you need to treat the water first with citric acid to precipitate out the minerals ("hardness") and then wash using treated water.  Just throwing out ideas, feel free to chuck out anything that won't work for you.

The other place for hair advice, including using shampoo/soap bars is a forum called Long Hair Community but I just tried searching and need to register before that is an option (I think that might have changed).  I used to read there, and learned a great deal.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 29, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> I have more residue on my brushes with soap too, but my hair seems fine/better/stronger, so I'm assuming shampoo just stripped off all that natural oil.  I also was trying a different bar that is lower cleansing (I don't like that bar on my face or hair, but it's fine on my body and for shaving), and had an increase in residue while using that bar.
> 
> Another thing I am noticing is that my hair dries much faster now.  I think it is less porous than before, but that's just a guess.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for helping me out, I honestly appreciate it. I use to search a lot on LHC too so I will give it a try on the shampoo bar. I feel like this is a trial and error sort of thing so I will keep experimenting with different soap recipes and amount of CA, etc. I think I am going to purchase a shower head filter to see if it makes a difference.


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## Obsidian (Jul 29, 2014)

I think its important to have a low SF when using a low cleansing bar. My first bar had 6% SF and after a few washes, it left a build up. Lowering it to 3% has fixed that issue.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 29, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> I think its important to have a low SF when using a low cleansing bar. My first bar had 6% SF and after a few washes, it left a build up. Lowering it to 3% has fixed that issue.



Yeah, that's my next experiment.  I like what the other oils did for my bars of soap, but not for my hair, and it's the SF/conditioning level that bothers me.  Going to make a very low SF version and see if it's good.

Another thought: silicone buildup from product use?  

And are you a) cleaning to the scalp and b) rinsing completely with your acid rinse?  I started using a nozzle bottle similar to the one below to be able to use less rinse and do a better job of getting it thru all the hair instead of just washing down the surface with a wider mouth container (use a lot less rinse, and it's not as cold as a drench):


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## KristaY (Jul 29, 2014)

Are my eyes bleeding? I think they're bleeding.... I've done SOOO MUCH reading on shampoo bars over the last several days, my head is filled to the brim and spilling over, lol. roblem: After reading through this thread (thanks Bex!), Genny's thread (all 63 pages), plus may other sites, I think I'm ready to create one. I have fine hair but normal amount. It's color treated (yep, there's gray under there, shhh) but healthy. I usually shampoo every 2nd day and can go every 3rd day in winter, so not oily. I'd like my DH to use this bar too, he has normal "man" hair (very short, not oily or dry, etc.) So based on Genny's original recipe I subbed the 10% soybean with 5% each CO and sunflower (sunflower because of it's non-comedogenic properties). I'll probably need to experiment a while to find out what works best for me, DH, our water quality, etc. but here's a start. What are your thoughts?

 40% OO
 30% Avocado
 10% Castor
 10% Shea
 5% CO
 5% Sunflower

 3% SF
 35% H2O to oils

 Soap Calc puts this at 3 for cleansing and 74 conditioning.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 29, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> I think its important to have a low SF when using a low cleansing bar. My first bar had 6% SF and after a few washes, it left a build up. Lowering it to 3% has fixed that issue.


The shampoo bar I am using is 3% sf.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Jul 29, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> Yeah, that's my next experiment.  I like what the other oils did for my bars of soap, but not for my hair, and it's the SF/conditioning level that bothers me.  Going to make a very low SF version and see if it's good.
> 
> Another thought: silicone buildup from product use?
> 
> And are you a) cleaning to the scalp and b) rinsing completely with your acid rinse?  I started using a nozzle bottle similar to the one below to be able to use less rinse and do a better job of getting it thru all the hair instead of just washing down the surface with a wider mouth container (use a lot less rinse, and it's not as cold as a drench):


I don't use silicone products. I honestly don't use any products on my hair except coconut oil occasionally when my ends might feel slightly dry. I try to make sure to get the rinse all over my hair even lifting and parting areas on my hair to get in between. But I will look into one of those bottles and see if it makes a difference.


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## Bex1982 (Jul 30, 2014)

> didn’t think about SF :/


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## Obsidian (Jul 30, 2014)

If I use any products with silicone, I have to lather my hair 2-3 times to get it all out. I try and not use hair products anymore, opting for a little body butter instead of silicone smoothers.


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## CanaDawn (Jul 30, 2014)

yet another thought:  Are you piling your hair up on top of your head to wash/scrub it?  Could the matting be sort of like "felting" from the raised cuticle in the akaline soap, before it gets laid back down with the acid rinse?


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## soapysarah (Aug 4, 2014)

*soapnuts - shampoo bar*

Hi Bex, I make a liquid with the soap nuts.  Boil about 15-20 soap nuts with 6 cups water for 20 mins., add 1 cup water, boil further 10 mins., add 2 cups water and boil for another 10 mins.. Cool and store in fridge.  I add a few drops of tea-tree and lavender.  I use a bare cup in the washing machine.  I find the liquid brilliant for cleaning the glass hob and granite worktops.  (I have found that there is still life in the soap nuts after this and boil them up again for general cleaning.  When they are all used up they look grey.)

This liquid is substituted for some of the liquid in the soap.  Not added when the lye mixture is very hot.  There is a lot of information on the web about soap nuts.

I hope that this helps.


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## Susie (Aug 4, 2014)

KristaY said:


> Are my eyes bleeding? I think they're bleeding.... I've done SOOO MUCH reading on shampoo bars over the last several days, my head is filled to the brim and spilling over, lol. roblem: After reading through this thread (thanks Bex!), Genny's thread (all 63 pages), plus may other sites, I think I'm ready to create one. I have fine hair but normal amount. It's color treated (yep, there's gray under there, shhh) but healthy. I usually shampoo every 2nd day and can go every 3rd day in winter, so not oily. I'd like my DH to use this bar too, he has normal "man" hair (very short, not oily or dry, etc.) So based on Genny's original recipe I subbed the 10% soybean with 5% each CO and sunflower (sunflower because of it's non-comedogenic properties). I'll probably need to experiment a while to find out what works best for me, DH, our water quality, etc. but here's a start. What are your thoughts?
> 
> 40% OO
> 30% Avocado
> ...



I think that is a lot of soft oils.


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## beckster51 (Aug 4, 2014)

Before I made shampoo bars, I ordered samples, lots of samples, and I noted the ingredients in the bars I liked and used them in my own recipe. I have only made shampoo bars twice, and this one is my favorite of the two.  One of my goals was to come up with a bar that I liked for body soap and shampoo, an all-in-one bar. It is a rather soft bar, and I know it will be too cleansing and not conditioning enough in the winter months, so I am trying to come up with another recipe that works for cold weather. In the future, I will tweak it, but for now (summer in the south) it works well.  I have short (pixie cut)very fine, very thin hair that is not processed in any way.  It can be very fly away, but it is not with this bar. In my limited experience, your recipe should be based on the oils and SF ratio that work best for your hair.  You can only find this out via trial and error.  And you have to use the same methods to compare different recipes, that is use the same kind of rinse with each bar. I have soft water, and I use an ACV rinse with rosemary and sage infused in it about once a week. I am happy to share it as a jumping off point for others. 
Apricot kernel oil 10%
Avocado oil 10%
coconut oil 30%
castor oil 15%
palm kernel oil 15%
sunflower oil 20%
I am sure this bar would be a nightmare for some folks.  My hair performs best with a bar that is cleansing and has a high SF.  This bar's SF if 10%. It has a great lather due to all the palm kernel and castor. Next I want to try a bar that has babassu oil or jojoba oil in it for greater conditioning.


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## Bex1982 (Aug 9, 2014)

Your formula is not too much different than mine. 
I just tested it again (I think it's been about 3 weeks curing now? ) and I like it much better.  It does seem to make my hair frizzy. I'll have to figure something out. My other hair products like leave in conditioner and oils are not helping and then too much looks greasy.


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## sososo (Aug 9, 2014)

Is clay ok in shampoo bars?


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## beckster51 (Aug 11, 2014)

Bex, I just made a recipe of Sherry's Fantastic Soap Shaving Soap/Shampoo Bar version from Miller's Soap pages.  It is certainly a different recipe!  It includes Palmer's Cocoa Butter, which contains a crystalline wax and some dimethicone, I believe.  Anyway, Sherry says it is the only shampoo bar that holds the style the next morning after she blow dries her hair.  Maybe the wax?  I look like Woody Woodpecker when I get up in the morning, so if it worked that way for me, I would be delighted!  I made it for my husband for shaving soap, but I am certainly going to try it for shampoo after it cures.  I know that jojoba is great for some people in shampoo bars, but I fear the dimethicone will make my hair floppy and greasy.  I will report back after I have tried it.


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## beckster51 (Aug 11, 2014)

Sososo, I know some people put clay in shampoo bars, but I have not tried it.  Maybe someone else will pipe up.


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## Crombie (Aug 12, 2014)

*Shampoo Bars*

I use kaolin clay in my shampoo bars but only at 1/2 tsp ppo.

I also infuse some of my oils (avocado) and beer/water with marshmallow root and calendula overnight.  The marshmallow root gives the soap some detangling properties.


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## soapysarah (Aug 18, 2014)

*I'm really pleased with my shampoo bar*

I made a shampoo bar for my husband who has an itchy scalp.  He uses Nizoral which is both expensive and strong.  He is really pleased with the soap and so I passed it to my sister-in-law, who has bleached hair - she likes it too.  My husband says that his scalp no longer itches and his hair feels soft and shiny.

This is the only shampoo I use now.  I have shoulder-length coloured hair and the shampoo soap seems to give it a lot of body and it holds any style I blow dry it into.  As my hair is quite thick but fine this is a great result.  If only it didn't cost so much to get a soap to market!

(I always condition after washing and every couple of weeks use a vinegar rinse.)

Playing around with soap is great fun.  I'v been making body lotions ever since I qualified as an aromatherapist and am now trialling deodorant.  My soap for dogs is working as a fly repellant and I leave a bar out wherever the flies congregate.


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## Nyknits (Feb 26, 2021)

beckster51 said:


> Bex, I just made a recipe of Sherry's Fantastic Soap Shaving Soap/Shampoo Bar version from Miller's Soap pages.  It is certainly a different recipe!  It includes Palmer's Cocoa Butter, which contains a crystalline wax and some dimethicone, I believe.  Anyway, Sherry says it is the only shampoo bar that holds the style the next morning after she blow dries her hair.  Maybe the wax?  I look like Woody Woodpecker when I get up in the morning, so if it worked that way for me, I would be delighted!  I made it for my husband for shaving soap, but I am certainly going to try it for shampoo after it cures.  I know that jojoba is great for some people in shampoo bars, but I fear the dimethicone will make my hair floppy and greasy.  I will report back after I have tried it.


This is stab in the dark. I’m interested in trying Sherry’s shave/shampoo bar. As a new soap maker, I know to run everything through a soap calculator. When adding the Palmer’s, am I adding it after emulsification? TIA.


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## beckster51 (Feb 26, 2021)

This is a really old thread, but since I was the one who was posting, I will share my experience with this recipe.  I didn't like it.  It is not a good shave soap recipe or a shampoo bar recipe.  I just added the Palmer's in with all the other oils with no problem.  It's an OK soap, but after 6 years of experience, I can tell you there are much better recipes than this one.  I also found I absolutely cannot use shampoo bars.  Like many other people, it really turns my hair into straw, even with a vinegar rinse.  If you want shampoo bars, try Lindy's shampoo bar, there is thread for that on here.  If you want a good shave soap, there are threads for that as well.  I hope this helps.


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## Nyknits (Feb 26, 2021)

beckster51 said:


> This is a really old thread, but since I was the one who was posting, I will share my experience with this recipe.  I didn't like it.  It is not a good shave soap recipe or a shampoo bar recipe.  I just added the Palmer's in with all the other oils with no problem.  It's an OK soap, but after 6 years of experience, I can tell you there are much better recipes than this one.  I also found I absolutely cannot use shampoo bars.  Like many other people, it really turns my hair into straw, even with a vinegar rinse.  If you want shampoo bars, try Lindy's shampoo bar, there is thread for that on here.  If you want a good shave soap, there are threads for that as well.  I hope this helps.


Thank you for replying. I will search for Lindy’s and see how that goes. Thanks so much for taking the time to share your experience with this recipe.  Enjoy your weekend. 
Lisa


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## MarinaB (Feb 26, 2021)

I only can say that I gave up trying to create a shampoo bar. 
Today I ordered a shampoo bar from one lady, she is in California. I really interested. 15$ a bar.


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## Krashdragon (Feb 27, 2021)

I haven't made any shampoo bars, just a few soaps. But. I tried Katie's ( Royalty Soaps ) shampoo bars, I especially like the honey one. Also the conditioner bar. Then I use a tiny dab of leave-on conditioner. My hair stylists suggested that. 
My hair has gotten finer with age (I'm officially ancient... over 70),  it feels softer and I'm not losing nearly as much. My hair is a bit below shoulder length. 
Why does one long hair just seems so much more... hair... than a bunch of short ones?
Also read where commercial shampoos can increase hair loss. We don't need that!


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