# Why do some sites and books say you MUST use lye?



## Camianmears (Jun 26, 2011)

I don't have lye in a lot of the soaps I have purchased. In fact one only has five ingredients: Shea butter, palm kernel oil, olive oil, vanilla oil and purified water and it's amazing. Why do these people say you have to use it?

Also I am new to this site and just started making soaps myself


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## Deda (Jun 26, 2011)

Oil + lye + water = soap

Oil + water = oil + water 

Who ever you purchased that soap from lied.


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## Fullamoon (Jun 26, 2011)

I think maybe people have a misconception about using lye in soap.  You HAVE to use lye in order to MAKE soap. Those oils have been saponified by adding lye to them. But once they are combined with lye, it becomes soap. The properties of the lye changed when it was combined with the oils. So your soap seller is indeed incorrect in saying she didn't use lye. She had to.


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## nursenancy (Jun 26, 2011)

Unless it was M&P and even then....


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## Camianmears (Jun 26, 2011)

*Thanks for the responses.*

The soap i mentioned is from "Out of Africa". I had a feeling they may not have put all the ingredients on the box but that's a bit odd isn't it? Also if i purchase the melt and pour base which has sodium hydroxide already in it, then that means I'm all set with lye right? I can't get lye and add it myself where I live.


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## Camianmears (Jun 26, 2011)

*Also,*

I am using melt and pour bases and some do not have sodium hydroxide...so are they not really soap?


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## Camianmears (Jun 26, 2011)

*What about this base? Still not really soap?*

I'm just trying to make sure before i invest a buncha money and find out i didn't make soap all along so than you all for all your help!


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## Tabitha (Jun 26, 2011)

Melt & pour is called soap by the general polulation, just like soda is called 'coke'  even if it's  pepsi or another brand or how a vacuum is called a 'hoover' even though it may be a different brand.

The FDA offers defintions of what makes an item soap vs a cosmetic, vs a drug. It is based on both content & claims you make.

If you make soap w/ lye & oil & claim it's plain'o soap, it is soap.
If you make soap w/ lye & oil & claim it's mositurising, it is a cosmetic.
If you make soap w/ lye & oil & claim it is anti-acne it is a drug.

If you make soap w/ lye & oil & detergents & claim it's plain'o soap, it is a cosmetic (due to the detergents).
If you make soap w/ lye & oil & detergents & claim it's mositurising, it is a cosmetic (due to the detergents & the claim).
If you make soap w/ lye & oil & detergents &  it's anti-acne, it is a drug (due to the claim).

Dove 'soap' is not soap according to the FDA, it is a cosmetic because it has detergents in it.

Soap vs cosmetics vs drugs have different FDA requirements in relationship to labels, etc.


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## hlawrence (Jul 4, 2011)

This is a particular point of interest for me. I understand the chemistry behind it however specifically what I am interested in is this

Adding lye results in glycerin so for those of us like myself who does not want to handle lye can I use glycerin whether in a soap form or liquid veg glycerin and successfully create a hard or liquid soap?


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## Deda (Jul 4, 2011)

hlawrence said:
			
		

> This is a particular point of interest for me. I understand the chemistry behind it however specifically what I am interested in is this
> 
> Adding lye results in glycerin so for those of us like myself who does not want to handle lye can I use glycerin whether in a soap form or liquid veg glycerin and successfully create a hard or liquid soap?



I'm not sure I understand your question. To what exatly are you adding lye? And by lye, do you mean KOH or NaOH. 

Also, when you say you 'understand the chemistry' what are you referring to?


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## JenniferSews (Jul 4, 2011)

hlawrence said:
			
		

> Adding lye results in glycerin so for those of us like myself who does not want to handle lye can I use glycerin whether in a soap form or liquid veg glycerin and successfully create a hard or liquid soap?



If I understand your question, the answer is no.  You cannot use glycerin to replace lye.

If you want to "make" soap from scratch you can _only _do so by using lye and oils.  The simple process of soapmaking is like any other chemical reaction, it requires the basic ingredients and a source of energy.  But you can't make water (Hydrogen and oxygen) by substituting another ingredient.  Just like you can't make cake by substituting bread crumbs for flour just because they are similar.      

You can use a melt and pour base and not use lye.  You are not "making soap" in the sense of creating the chemical reaction that is soap making.  But you can still be creative and very artistic with M&P soap.  Just take a look at the photos section.


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## carebear (Jul 5, 2011)

do a search on the chemistry of soap for a more detailed explanation, but essentially, soap is the result of reacting fatty acids (oils) with caustic (lye).  it does result in some glycerin, but also in sodium (if using NaOH) or potassium (if using KOH) salts of the fatty acids - also known as SOAP.

true soap is made using a caustic (lye).  some soapmakers choose not to show this on their labels.  our soaps are a mix of water, salts of fatty acids, excess oils, and glycerin, plus whatever else we put in there.

commercial soapmakers (like P&G) make soaps very differently.  if they are making real soap (the salts of fatty acids), they typically purchase (or make elsewhere) these salts of fatty acids and they purify them - so they don't have the mix of ingredients unless they choose to put them in there.  and they don't typically list the caustic.  many times they are not selling "soap" per se, but actually detergent products which - chemically speaking - are another animal altogether.  they act the same way soap does - as emulsifiers - but are different.  detergents are not soaps and are not produced by mixing lye with oils.

oh, and many commercial soaps are a blend of soap & detergent.

yes - adding lye results in glycerin, AND SOAP.  glycerin is not the same as soap.

if you don't want to handle lye, you can purchase pre-made soap or a detergent base.  it's called melt & pour and is fun to work with.


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## judymoody (Jul 5, 2011)

If you want to make soap you have these basic choices:

Cold process (CP) soap making which involves handling lye directly, mixing it with water and fats, and getting soap on the other end.  If you make it properly, the lye will be converted into soap (a form of salt) and there will be no lye left in your finished product.

Hot process (HP) involves the same ingredients as CP and also requires handling lye directly but you heat the soap mixture in a crockpot, in the oven, or on a stove top, which speeds up the chemical reaction of turning lye, fats, and water into soap.

Melt and pour (M&P) soap base is sometimes detergent based and sometimes CP based; if CP-based it involved lye in its production.  You're not really "making" soap, you're melting it down, adding color and fragrance and letting it harden again.  Beautiful soap can be achieved using this method.

Handmilling or rebatching soap.  This involves grating up existing soap (CP or a commercial detergent bar like Dove), heating it, and then mixing it with the color, fragrance, or additives of your choice.  You wouldn't handle lye directly with this method because it was already used in the manufacture of the soap you grated up.

Hope this helps.  

Edited to take carebear's comment into account.  She's right; that's what happens when I type too fast.


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## carebear (Jul 5, 2011)

Judy, detergents are not produced with lye.  There are MP soaps that are based on true soap, and of course those do involve caustic - but not the detergent based ones.


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## carebear (Jul 5, 2011)

by the way, it can seem that African Black Soap is made without lye - but the (burnt) plantain skins (ashes) are the source of the caustic.


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## judymoody (Jul 5, 2011)

carebear said:
			
		

> Judy, detergents are not produced with lye.  There are MP soaps that are based on true soap, and of course those do involve caustic - but not the detergent based ones.



Right you are.  I was typing a mile a minute and didn't spell that out fully.  I fixed the post.  Thanks.


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## hlawrence (Jul 12, 2011)

That's awesome  Thank you all so much for your input. I understand from a chemistry angle the reactions that create the soap. It's an evil thing asking someone at a Whole Foods cause that is exactly what they say, "Oh yes I make soap and no I don't use lye." Which is how I came to question glycerin usage. So then my next question is to what degree can you control the contents of your melt and pour. I don't mind doing that but I do prefer 100% olive oil castile soaps and that is what I was going for.

Oh and one more thing! I see ppl talk about Lye being hazardous to use health wise. Is KoH different in that respect at all? I do like the idea of making things by myself primarily because I want to know that what is in there really is there but I really am not so invested in that idea to the extent of risking health problems.


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## KnowWhat (Jul 18, 2011)

The lye is not toxic, but it is caustic, which means it can burn or corrode living tissue.  (So just don't drink it)

You need to take precautions to not burn yourself (wear gloves, goggles) but I wouldn't say it was hazardous to your health.


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## carebear (Jul 18, 2011)

hlawrence said:
			
		

> So then my next question is to what degree can you control the contents of your melt and pour. I don't mind doing that but I do prefer 100% olive oil castile soaps and that is what I was going for.
> 
> Oh and one more thing! I see ppl talk about Lye being hazardous to use health wise. Is KoH different in that respect at all? I do like the idea of making things by myself primarily because I want to know that what is in there really is there but I really am not so invested in that idea to the extent of risking health problems.



For the first part - you can control what base you buy and from whom.  Read the ingredients carefully.  There are many options out there.

As for KOH vs NaOH - same difference when it comes to safety & precautions.  Health problems?  Don't breathe the fumes (turn your head), and don't splash it on your face or skin or bob forbid your eyes (wear gloves and eye protection and wash quickly if it happens) and you are good to go.  It's not uber dangerous - just use it carefully as you would, say, boiling water.


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## Nostalgicgranny (Sep 17, 2011)

carebear said:
			
		

> by the way, it can seem that African Black Soap is made without lye - but the (burnt) plantain skins (ashes) are the source of the caustic.



You make a form of lye by running water through wood ashes, so my guess would be the burnt plantain skin ashes are also making lye.


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## soapbuddy (Sep 19, 2011)

Nostalgicgranny said:
			
		

> You make a form of lye by running water through wood ashes, so my guess would be the burnt plantain skin ashes are also making lye.


That will make potassium hydroxide, but not sodium hydroxide. It's the ashes that make the soap black.


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## Megan L-T (Sep 28, 2011)

Just out of curiousity, what is used to make a detergent? I have a potential customer who swears she buys soap that doesn't have lye in it. I'm trying to tell her it HAS to have potassium or sodium hydroxide (either caustic)........but it would help if I were able to intelligently explain to her that she may be buying a detergent. Also, am I correct in my undertanding that you use potassium hydroxide to make liquid soap and sodium hydroxide to make regular CP bar soap?


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## soapbuddy (Sep 28, 2011)

Megan L-T said:
			
		

> Just out of curiousity, what is used to make a detergent? I have a potential customer who swears she buys soap that doesn't have lye in it. I'm trying to tell her it HAS to have potassium or sodium hydroxide (either caustic)........but it would help if I were able to intelligently explain to her that she may be buying a detergent. Also, am I correct in my undertanding that you use potassium hydroxide to make liquid soap and sodium hydroxide to make regular CP bar soap?


Detergents have surfactants ie: polyglucose lactylate. They don't have lye.
Yes, potassium hydroxide makes liquid soap and sodium hydroxide makes regular CP soap.


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## sarawithouth (Oct 7, 2011)

Deda said:
			
		

> Who ever you purchased that soap from lied.



Actually, they "lyed."


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## dieSpinne (Oct 7, 2011)

soapbuddy said:
			
		

> Nostalgicgranny said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



if you use saltwater to wash or blend with your plantain ashes, the sodium from the sodium chloride, put in simplest terms, has a stronger ionic attraction to the fatty acid chains in the shea butter and so precipitates the harder form of sodium soap... the potassium remains in solution with the chloride ions.


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## younglivingmargo (Jan 13, 2012)

*using lye*



			
				carebear said:
			
		

> do a search on the chemistry of soap for a more detailed explanation, but essentially, soap is the result of reacting fatty acids (oils) with caustic (lye).  it does result in some glycerin, but also in sodium (if using NaOH) or potassium (if using KOH) salts of the fatty acids - also known as SOAP.
> 
> true soap is made using a caustic (lye).  some soapmakers choose not to show this on their labels.  our soaps are a mix of water, salts of fatty acids, excess oils, and glycerin, plus whatever else we put in there.
> 
> ...



GREAT INFO CAREBEAR.  THANKS


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## carebear (Jan 13, 2012)

dieSpinne said:
			
		

> soapbuddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



right.  you can actually boil your soft (potassium) soap with heavily salted water and the sodium and potassium will switch places and you can scoop harder soap "curds" out of the water.  Don't recommend it - it's messy and not efficient at all.


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## Mom2LilMan (Mar 12, 2012)

Regarding the original question, did the soap manufacturer not have to put the lye as an ingredient because it's chemically gone after the reaction has occurred?  Or should it have been in the ingredient list?


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## fiddletree (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm a bit fuzzy on American labeling laws (I'm assuming that is where you are), but it is my understanding that as long as it just plain soap and no claims are made, no ingredients have to be listed, but if they list *some* ingredients, they must list them all.  

So yes, if they listed oils and water, they should have listed sodium hydroxide.  Or even better, they could have listed the sodium salts (plus water and glycerin) that are the result of the chemical reaction to make soap, since there shouldn't be any lye in the finished product.


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## carebear (Mar 14, 2012)

Apparently they can get away with listing the salts of fatty acids (sodium tallowate) instead of tallow + lye.  It's entirely inaccurate since not all the tallow is saponified, but that's the rule anyway.  Go figure.


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## fiddletree (Mar 14, 2012)

carebear said:
			
		

> Apparently they can get away with listing the salts of fatty acids (sodium tallowate) instead of tallow + lye.  It's entirely inaccurate since not all the tallow is saponified, but that's the rule anyway.  Go figure.



It's actually more accurate than it seems, and technically more accurate than fat/oil+lye.  The 'sodium whatever-ate' terminology includes sodium salts _and_ remaining fatty acids left after the reaction.  Anyhow, we don't know that any of the original fat/oil is left unaltered, since lye eats away at the fatty acids really randomly, even with a fairly large SF.


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## shella (Jan 30, 2013)

i do not know if this is correct. but i have come to understand that dove do not call there product soap because if it has no lye in it. then  the product cannot be called soap dove call there product a moisturising bar


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## melstan775 (Jan 30, 2013)

Dove lists their ingredients in the INCI manner. Their first ingredient is sodium tallowate.  Sodium tallowate is the salt you get from lye and tallow. They basically hide that sodium hydroxide was part of their formula.


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## NativeSisterSoap (Feb 1, 2013)

No.  To make soap, you must have a salt (lye).  Remember chemistry?  If you mix something acid to something alkali in the right proportions you end up with something neutral?  Well that's how soap is make.  Lye is very alkaline.  Oils have fatty acids in them.  The alkaline lye mixes with the fatty acids in oils/fats and you have soap with a by-product of glycerin.


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## Lindy (Feb 1, 2013)

Since lye is not present in the completed product it does not have to be listed as long as you are using the INCI names for the oils.  No lye = no soap.  Most commercial brands are detergent bars so they are not truly soap....


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## hoegarden (Feb 19, 2013)

carebear said:


> right. you can actually boil your soft (potassium) soap with heavily salted water and the sodium and potassium will switch places and you can scoop harder soap "curds" out of the water. Don't recommend it - it's messy and not efficient at all.


 
oh ****.. I am still thinking of using salt water to dissolve my KOH soap that have finish curing. I was thinking that salt water will thicken the mixture. so my liquid soap will not be too liquid... :eh:


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## Rigneylane (Feb 28, 2013)

*To Lye or not to Lye!*

Some of the confusion on the label may come from the fact that "Lye" is not generally stated on a soap label as an ingredient.  I never put it on the label either.  One just generally states the fats, oils, and additives.  It is ASSUMED that NaOH (sodium hydroxide=lye) was used to make a hard soap, and that KOH -potassium hydroxide-was used to create a liquid soap.

Melt and pour bases do not require lye to work with them because they have already been saponified.  They are simply melted and you add whatever you wish.  Many melt and pour bases have a glycerine-ingredient base.

You can also buy soap or soap-shreds (soap noodles) on line to rebatch.  That also does not need lye.  Again, you can add whatever you want during the rebatch.


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## Scentapy (Feb 28, 2013)

Rigneylane said:


> One just generally states the fats, oils, and additives. It is ASSUMED that NaOH (sodium hydroxide=lye) was used to make a hard soap, and that KOH -potassium hydroxide-was used to create a liquid soap.


 
ASSUMED by whom?  Soapmakers?  Yes.  Customers?  NEVER ASSUME.  I did not know how soap was made before I started researching how to make soap.  

I don't know the answer as to whether it needs to be on the label or not... but I just do it.  Why wouldn't you just put it on there to be safe?  What is the reason for leaving it off?


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## Genny (Feb 28, 2013)

Scentapy said:


> ASSUMED by whom?  Soapmakers?  Yes.  Customers?  NEVER ASSUME.  I did not know how soap was made before I started researching how to make soap.
> 
> I don't know the answer as to whether it needs to be on the label or not... but I just do it.  Why wouldn't you just put it on there to be safe?  What is the reason for leaving it off?



Because it scares people :roll:
Why does it scare people?  Because they don't know the process of soap making. 
So you're right Scentapy, never assume.


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## Mommysoaper (Feb 28, 2013)

According to the FDA, you can either list the "starting ingredients" on the label, or the "reaction products" that resulted from the chemical reaction.  In order to use the "reaction products" you need to know the amounts of each reacted ingredient, the amount of glycerine created after the rxn, the amounts of remaining unsaponified oils, any remaining unevaporated water or liquid (milk, beer etc), and any fragrance, herbs, clays, colors or other additives. And they need to be listed in descending order of predominance. 

I got this info from the book, _Soap and Cosmetic Labeling: How to follow the Rules and Regs explained in Plain English_ by Marie Gale.  She states it pretty plainly in her book how soap should be labeled and the circumstances surrounding why soap should be labeled.  Unless you take your soap to get tested and get a breakdown of the components and their amounts after the chemical reaction of saponification has occcurred, then it would be a little touch and go to list your ingredients through the "reaction products" method which would allow you to not list lye.  But even still, I think any responsible soapmaker using that method would explain the "sodium tallowate" was an end product of using lye with tallow.

Hope this makes sense!  I have found marie Gale's book to be very valuable in helping me understand labeling laws.  The FDA website is easy to find too.  Google it!


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## nebetmiw (Feb 28, 2013)

The :my soap does not have lye : thing comes up alot.  Fact is all soap has it at the start of the process.  For those people that are clue less it is best to have the sheet in front of you to point too.  If you ask someone what they use and you have a print out of what is in their soap they use then show your........  Fast sell there.  Ignorance is bliss but knowledge is power.


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## songwind (Feb 28, 2013)

One could list lye as "sodium hydroxide" or "potassium hydroxide," which sounds less scary to the ignorant than "lye." And no one's grandma made sodium-hydroxide-soap that burned their hands.


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