# Soaping with unknown oil



## shmaria (May 9, 2016)

Hi, 
I'm from Bangalore India, and recently had a chance to visit a rural oil mill where they produce cold pressed castor oil. I was shown another oil that the local villagers and tribals supposedly use in soapmaking and is also supposed to be great for the hair. It's made from the seeds of the Mahua tree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhuca_longifolia), and does not exist on any soap/lye calculator that I've seen. 
Any suggestions on how to use this oil? I'd like to make a shampoo bar, but have no idea about lye calculations.


----------



## Viore (May 9, 2016)

Welcome to the forum!


----------



## kchaystack (May 9, 2016)

this table lists it as 187-194.  Which is probably the KOH value, so will need to be converted to NaOH value.  So divide that by 1.403 (I think, I might be misremembering, but I am sure one of the real chemists will correct me and I will edit my post if needed).  I would take the .190 (the middle of the range) for .183 (rounded)

http://www.chempro.in/fattyacid.htm


----------



## DeeAnna (May 9, 2016)

KC -- I think you're pretty close, but here's how I'd do it --

The KOH sap value you found is an average of 190. The units on this sap value are milligrams KOH / gram fat. To state this sap value the way we usually see it, you'd say instead the KOH sap value is 0.190 g KOH / g fat. See how the units are mg/g for the first and g/g for the second?

Convert the KOH sap value to the NaOH sap value --
NaOH sap value = 0.190 / 1.403 = 0.135 g NaOH / g fat

This is about the same sap value as linseed (flax seed) oil.


----------



## kchaystack (May 9, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> KC -- I think you're pretty close, but here's how I'd do it --
> 
> The KOH sap value you found is an average of 190. The units on this sap value are milligrams KOH / gram fat. To state this sap value the way we usually see it, you'd say instead the KOH sap value is 0.190 g KOH / g fat. See how the units are mg/g for the first and g/g for the second?
> 
> ...



Glad I got it pretty close.

I was also trying to understand the fatty acid profile - but I am at work on a conf. call from h#!! so I can't quite concentrate enough to really compare it to others and listen for the 1 question they might ask me in an hour and a half call.


----------



## DeeAnna (May 9, 2016)

You have my sympathy, KC. Good luck!


----------



## topofmurrayhill (May 9, 2016)

shmaria said:


> Hi,
> I'm from Bangalore India, and recently had a chance to visit a rural oil mill where they produce cold pressed castor oil. I was shown another oil that the local villagers and tribals supposedly use in soapmaking and is also supposed to be great for the hair. It's made from the seeds of the Mahua tree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhuca_longifolia), and does not exist on any soap/lye calculator that I've seen.
> Any suggestions on how to use this oil? I'd like to make a shampoo bar, but have no idea about lye calculations.



Cool. That tree is related to the one that produces shea butter, though the properties are different. SAP value of .135 sounds too low.

In any case, this oil is found in Soapcalc as *Mowrah Butter* with the correct fatty acid profile and a plausible SV.

Let us know how it works. If you are using locally produced crude oil, the free fatty acid level might be quite high and it would trace very quickly.


----------



## kchaystack (May 9, 2016)

Ok found it on Soapee as Mowrah Butter

http://soapee.com/oils/78


----------



## shmaria (May 10, 2016)

topofmurrayhill said:


> Cool. That tree is related to the one that produces shea butter, though the properties are different. SAP value of .135 sounds too low.
> 
> In any case, this oil is found in Soapcalc as *Mowrah Butter* with the correct fatty acid profile and a plausible SV.
> 
> Let us know how it works. If you are using locally produced crude oil, the free fatty acid level might be quite high and it would trace very quickly.


@topofmurrayhill, thanks, but are you sure its the same oil? I actually wrote to soapcalc asking them if they could add the oil to their list and got a reply that they didn't have enough info on the oil to add it.
Any suggestions on lye percentage and oil combinations? I've got coconut oil, sunflower, palm (we get two kinds, a hard white palm oil with sesame oil mixed in, and a liquid one that's labelled palmolein), rice bran, olive pomace and castor (also raw/crude) in stock.


----------



## topofmurrayhill (May 10, 2016)

shmaria said:


> @topofmurrayhill, thanks, but are you sure its the same oil? I actually wrote to soapcalc asking them if they could add the oil to their list and got a reply that they didn't have enough info on the oil to add it.



Yes it's the same oil. The fatty acid profile is identical. You will be fine using that. There is also an entry for palm olein that should be similar to what you would get as cooking oil.

I don't love the idea of the hard palm if it has sesame oil in it, because (1) you don't know the exact composition of the oil and (2) sesame is not such a stable oil. Perhaps you could find out more about it. The palm olein should be hard enough if it's palm olein 56. You could try refrigerating it and see to what extent it solidifies.


----------



## Summi (May 11, 2016)

@shmaria
Hi! About the palm oil, different brands give different results. The one in yellow bag with Palmolein written all over it causes soap to seize. It sort of sets in the pot. So you might want to avoid that in your first attempt. Just go for any other brand like Ruchi Gold etc. As for the other one (Dalda?) they haven't mentioned the amount of Sesame oil, hence it might be difficult to calculate the SAP value. I would also love to try it, if you find its SAP, do let me know.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 11, 2016)

If there is a mix of two oils, look at the saturated fat amount for each individual oil and compare it to the saturated fat amount for the mix. 

Example, our oil is a mix of A and B. A has a saturated % of 25 and B is 40. The % on our mix is 30%, so I know already that it is more A than B. Using trial and error in a spreadsheet I can quickly come to an exact mix that would give me this figure.


----------



## shmaria (May 12, 2016)

Okay, then. Guess I'll just experiment with different combinations now. Thanks again!


----------



## shmaria (May 12, 2016)

@summi- Yeah, I've been using ruchi gold, but thought of trying dalda since all the recipes and videos show white chunks, not liquid. The one batch I made with dalda did seize fast, but I think I'll try a couple more experimental batches just sseat-of-pants style  I'm trying to formulate a basic soap without expensive oils and a good amount of hardness, so dalda, rice bran sunflower and castor are on the list


----------



## shmaria (May 12, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> If there is a mix of two oils, look at the saturated fat amount for each individual oil and compare it to the saturated fat amount for the mix.
> 
> Example, our oil is a mix of A and B. A has a saturated % of 25 and B is 40. The % on our mix is 30%, so I know already that it is more A than B. Using trial and error in a spreadsheet I can quickly come to an exact mix that would give me this figure.


We don't get a breakdown of the oils here, just "contains palm oil, til oil, vit a and vit e"


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 12, 2016)

You generally have to contact the supplier or research online for the actual oils used. 

Here we have a palm-based  cooking oil, but mixed. So I emailed the company and they said it was palm and canola but wouldn't tell me the ratio - so with the saturated fat amounts for each oil and the amount for the mix itself, I could work out the actual mix of the two oils. 

If the sap values for the two oils are pretty much the same, though, it's not critical. But if you have wildly different sap values you are more accurate with the measurements if you work it out


----------



## DeeAnna (May 12, 2016)

US ingredients lists are the same, Shmaria -- no one wants to tell the consumer the exact amounts of the actual ingredients. 

But do you see a nutrition label on the shortening? Nutrition labels are required in North America and I believe in Europe and the UK; don't know about other regions of the world. For example:







This is what The Gent is talking about -- the list that tells the Calories, and the Saturated, Monosaturated, and Polyunsaturated fats, etc.



shmaria said:


> We don't get a breakdown of the oils here, just "contains palm oil, til oil, vit a and vit e"


----------



## shmaria (May 20, 2016)

Ok, here's what teh pack says exactly:
Nutritional facts per 100g (approximate)
Energy 900kcal
Protein 0g
carbohydrate 0g
of which sugar 0g
fat 100g
vitamin A 750mg
Vitamin D 5 mg
Hydrogenated vegetable fate used - contains trans fats
e} total trans fat content not more than 10 percent by weight
ii) Total saturated fat content not more than 58 percent by weight.



DeeAnna said:


> US ingredients lists are the same, Shmaria -- no one wants to tell the consumer the exact amounts of the actual ingredients.
> 
> But do you see a nutrition label on the shortening? Nutrition labels are required in North America and I believe in Europe and the UK; don't know about other regions of the world. For example:
> 
> ...



http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 20, 2016)

And what are the saturated amounts of the two fats in the mix?


----------



## DeeAnna (May 20, 2016)

Hydrogenated Palm oil
Lauric	49%
Myristic	17
Palmitic	8
Stearic	16
Oleic	4
Ricinoleic	0
Linoleic	0
Linolenic	0

Hyd Palm saturated fat = 49 + 17 + 8 + 16 = 90%
Hyd Palm NaOH sap value	0.176

***

Sesame oil (I believe this is what "til" oil is usually called in English)	
Lauric	0%
Myristic	0
Palmitic	10
Stearic	5
Oleic	40
Ricinoleic	0
Linoleic	43
Linolenic	0

Sesame saturated fat = 10 + 5 = 15%
Sesame NaOH sap value	0.137

***

"Hydrogenated vegetable fat used..."
"contains palm oil, til oil, vit a and vit e"

If I'm following you correctly, your shortening has palm and sesame oils and the mixture is 58% saturated fat. I've assumed the palm is hydrogenated and the sesame is not, but that's a guess. 

So if Sesame is 15% saturated fat and hydrogenated palm is 90% saturated fat, can you figure out the proportions needed of the two oils to make a mixture that is 58% saturated?


----------



## topofmurrayhill (May 20, 2016)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> You generally have to contact the supplier or research online for the actual oils used.
> 
> Here we have a palm-based  cooking oil, but mixed. So I emailed the company and they said it was palm and canola but wouldn't tell me the ratio - so with the saturated fat amounts for each oil and the amount for the mix itself, I could work out the actual mix of the two oils.
> 
> If the sap values for the two oils are pretty much the same, though, it's not critical. But if you have wildly different sap values you are more accurate with the measurements if you work it out



In principle you can't work out the oil proportions in shortening products by looking at saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated numbers. Hydrogenated oils are incorporated into all of them in one way or another, and the specific effect of hydrogenation is to change how saturated the fats are.

The rest is ETA:

The problem is that you don't know the degree of hydrogenation or how it was done. The process can affect the balance of poly / mono / fully saturated in many different ways. So there's a mystery process you can't account for in your calculations.

However, it occurs to me that you could possibly work it out for a zero trans-fat shortening, if a few assumptions are true. First would be that only non-hydrogenated and fully hydrogenated oils are used to make the product. No partially hydrogenated because that would introduce trans-fat.

For Crisco, for instance, you can find the proportion of non-hydrogenated palm and soybean oils to give you the correct proportion of poly and monounsaturated. Then figure the proportion of fully hydrogenated soybean oil to get the right amount of saturated fat.

It turns out that about 1/3 each soybean, palm and fully hydrogenated soy gives you the right numbers and a SAP value of .138 for Crisco.

I know the label says there are "partially hydrogenated palm and soybean oils" in it, which would normally screw up our calculations, but in this case it might not be so. Our second assumption is that "partially hydrogenated" is for labeling purposes how they describe non-hydrogenated oil trans-esterified with fully hydrogenated oil (meaning the fatty acids are redistributed between the two oils).


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 20, 2016)

That is true! The hydrogenation takes another stage in to this. I was thinking of oil mixes but hadn't considered that aspect


----------



## shmaria (May 22, 2016)

What I got is 57% palm & 43% til/sesame. Can't quite believe it because sesame oil is sold at twice the cost of palm oil (labeled palm olein) here, and this particular oil/shortening is cheaper than either of the two. 





DeeAnna said:


> "Hydrogenated vegetable fat used..."
> "contains palm oil, til oil, vit a and vit e"
> 
> If I'm following you correctly, your shortening has palm and sesame oils and the mixture is 58% saturated fat. I've assumed the palm is hydrogenated and the sesame is not, but that's a guess.
> ...


----------



## TeresaT (May 22, 2016)

shmaria said:


> Hi,
> I'm from Bangalore India, and recently had a chance to visit a rural oil mill where they produce cold pressed castor oil. I was shown another oil that the local villagers and tribals supposedly use in soapmaking and is also supposed to be great for the hair. It's made from the seeds of the Mahua tree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhuca_longifolia), and does not exist on any soap/lye calculator that I've seen.
> Any suggestions on how to use this oil? I'd like to make a shampoo bar, but have no idea about lye calculations.
> 
> ...




When I clicked on the link provided, the wikipedia page gave a list of "Other Names" and one of the names this product is known as in India (which I found rather funny since that's where you are) is Mowrah.  As has been pointed out already, Mowrah Butter is on SoapCalc and Soapee.

 Shmaria, if you requested SoapCalc to add it to thier list of oils/butters and were told they didn't have enough information about it, they probably didn't realize that it was an alternative name for Mowrah butter.


----------



## shmaria (May 24, 2016)

Just fyi, India has *22* official languages, and over a thousand unofficial ones, so we've got dozens of names for plants and oils. Also, when phonetic sounds are written in English, it varies according to the writer's ear & tongue (which is how the Brits turned Mumbai into Bombay and Moolliga-thanni became mulligatawny!) 
We don't have a name for this oil or the tree in my mother tongue (Konkani) , but in Kannada, the state language, it's called Hippennae (the tree is Hippae). I speak 3 Indian languages, but had never heard the name of this oil because we've never used it, and it isn't available commercially. Only found out about this oil when I told the mill owner I was buying the castor oil for soap, and he suggested this one. He was curious about my buying 2 litres of raw castor oil because the villagers don't use castor oil for soap, they cook it till it darkens and apply it directly to the scalp. 

I'm guessing Mahua and Mowrah are different versions of the same word, but I didn't look for that on Soapcalc because the images for Mowrah butter show it as a white, solid substance whereas what I've got is dark like coffee, and with the consistency of castor oil.  





TeresaT said:


> When I clicked on the link provided, the wikipedia page gave a list of "Other Names" and one of the names this product is known as in India (which I found rather funny since that's where you are) is Mowrah.


----------



## TeresaT (May 24, 2016)

shmaria said:


> Just fyi, India has *22* official languages, and over a thousand unofficial ones, so we've got dozens of names for plants and oils. Also, when phonetic sounds are written in English, it varies according to the writer's ear & tongue (which is how the Brits turned Mumbai into Bombay and Moolliga-thanni became mulligatawny!)
> We don't have a name for this oil or the tree in my mother tongue (Konkani) , but in Kannada, the state language, it's called Hippennae (the tree is Hippae). I speak 3 Indian languages, but had never heard the name of this oil because we've never used it, and it isn't available commercially. Only found out about this oil when I told the mill owner I was buying the castor oil for soap, and he suggested this one. He was curious about my buying 2 litres of raw castor oil because the villagers don't use castor oil for soap, they cook it till it darkens and apply it directly to the scalp.
> 
> I'm guessing Mahua and Mowrah are different versions of the same word, but I didn't look for that on Soapcalc because the images for Mowrah butter show it as a white, solid substance whereas what I've got is dark like coffee, and with the consistency of castor oil.



I'm sorry if I offended you.  I thought about deleting that after I posted it because it sounded condescending.  It was not meant to be at all.  I just thought it was funny.   It is also proof of my American ignorance.  I knew (know, actually) India is a huge country with a diverse population and multiple languages.  However, I had no idea it had that many *official* languages, as well as a bunch of unofficial ones.   Thanks for the education!!

In America we don't have an "official" language (although many Americans would like to make it English) and there are a large number of other languages spoken.  However, those languages are usually "pocketed" in small communities where "like seeks like."  I cannot imaging going 100 miles in a direction and not knowing the language in my native country.  With that many languages spoken in India, that possibility seems to me to be very real.


----------



## DeeAnna (May 24, 2016)

Yes, that proportion sounds right. Keep in mind we're making some guesses about the oils involved, so this might not be the actual makeup for this particular product. But it's a start.

I agree it doesn't make sense that the shortening should be less expensive than either of the oils in the shortening, but there are a couple of reasons why this might be true. 

The manufacturer may be able to use lower grades of oils to make shortening vs. the grade required for packaging and selling the pure oils. Also, the prices for large amounts of commodities such as edible oil are often much lower than retail prices. The prices you see in the store for an oil in a small container are usually a lot more than what a large commercial processor would pay for a tank car of the same oil.

Palm olein is not the same as palm oil, by the way. Olein is the name for the high oleic fats after they are separated from the stearin, which is the high stearic fats. Palm stearin is more valuable as a feedstock than olein, so stearin is usually more expensive than olein.



shmaria said:


> What I got is 57% palm & 43% til/sesame. Can't quite believe it because sesame oil is sold at twice the cost of palm oil (labeled palm olein) here, and this particular oil/shortening is cheaper than either of the two.


----------



## kchaystack (May 24, 2016)

shmaria said:


> I'm guessing Mahua and Mowrah are different versions of the same word, but I didn't look for that on Soapcalc because the images for Mowrah butter show it as a white, solid substance whereas what I've got is dark like coffee, and with the consistency of castor oil.



I am going to guess some of the color difference comes from refining.  Sort of like shea butter.  Raw shea is kind of a dirty yellow color (usually again this can differ) but refined is a much lighter and more off white.  

If you are getting your mahua right from the press, it might not have been thru anything more than that. 

There could also be minor variance from the harvest locations.


----------



## shmaria (May 26, 2016)

Oh, no offense taken, Teresa. Just thought I'd try to explain why it's such a task for us to find the western/English counterpart to our native species. There are also instances where the name of a plant or fruit gets passed back and forth between languages and next thing you know it means something entirely different. Eg: was on a home remedy page that listed plantain leaves as a medicinal herb, looked it up and realised they were referring to a short, leafy, medicinal plant - In India it's a banana. In Australia a bandicoot is a marsupial, in India it's a rat the size of a small dog! 


TeresaT said:


> I'm sorry if I offended you. .


----------



## DeeAnna (May 26, 2016)

In the US, the word "plantain" also refers to two plants -- a leafy weed or medicinal plant (depending on your point of view) and a type of starchy banana. The leafy plant name is said "plan-tin" with the accent on the first syllable. The banana is "plan-tayn" with the accent on the second.


----------



## Rani Muthu (Aug 6, 2020)

shmaria said:


> Hi,
> I'm from Bangalore India, and recently had a chance to visit a rural oil mill where they produce cold pressed castor oil. I was shown another oil that the local villagers and tribals supposedly use in soapmaking and is also supposed to be great for the hair. It's made from the seeds of the Mahua tree (Madhuca longifolia - Wikipedia), and does not exist on any soap/lye calculator that I've seen.
> Any suggestions on how to use this oil? I'd like to make a shampoo bar, but have no idea about lye calculations.


We’re you able to find out lye calculation for Mahua oil? A nearby shop is having this oil. we use it for lighting lamps with seasame oil. But I can’t find it in soap cal and other calculators. Are you using this oil and how much ?


----------



## varshamanick (Aug 28, 2020)

Rani Muthu said:


> We’re you able to find out lye calculation for Mahua oil? A nearby shop is having this oil. we use it for lighting lamps with seasame oil. But I can’t find it in soap cal and other calculators. Are you using this oil and how much ?



After a lot of research, I concluded Mahua oil is Mowrah butter.
With reference to the fatty acid value comparison between Soapcalc's Mowrah butter and Wikipedia page for Mahua oil.

Soap Calc for Mowrah butter: palmitic: 24, stearic: 22, oleic: 36, linoleic: 15
Wikipedia for Mahua oil:  Fatty acid composition (acid, %) : palmitic (c16:0) : 24.5, stearic (c18:0) : 22.7, oleic (c18:1) : 37.0, linoleic (c18:2) : 14.3

PS: 
Mahua oil is called as illipai oil in Tamil (You might know, your name sounds like a Tamil name). So I believed illipe butter is mahua oil for quite sometime. But when I googled illipe butter, it's wikipedia page tells us that Mowrah butter is from Madhuca LONGIFOLIA and Illipe butter is from Madhuca LATIFOLIA. Now I don't know the difference between Longifolia and Latifolia, soap calc has completely different fatty acid profile for Illipe butter and Mowrah butter. Still confused in that area.

I am new to soap making, I saw a soap profile in instgram from Hyderabad,India using Mahua oil as one of their ingredients, thats when I started to research on Mahua oil. I think I need some more research to formulate a recipe with mahua oil. It seems to provide a lot of benefits to the skin.


----------



## sang90 (Oct 11, 2020)

Hi,

what is SAP value for Mahua oil ?


----------



## varshamanick (Oct 12, 2020)

sang90 said:


> Hi,
> 
> what is SAP value for Mahua oil ?



Mahua oil is also called as Mowrah butter and infinite other regional names.
Soapcalc says
Mowrah Butter NaOH - 0.138 SAP


----------



## sang90 (Oct 12, 2020)

Thanks for the info ... Are you sure mahual oil is the same as Mowrah butter
Mahua oil we have been using is a dark golden yellow, whereas mowrah butter is somewhat creamy white.


----------



## varshamanick (Oct 12, 2020)

I am new to soap making. But I have used this for quite a few batches now. The soap turned out great. Is this the colour of the Mahua oil you have?



There is refined and unrefined. Be sure to check that with your supplier.


----------



## sang90 (Oct 13, 2020)

Hi, yes its the same colour ... 
We get it directly from the oil mill and its always in a thick liquid state,  surprisingly they never heard of mowrah or mahua butter


----------



## Pooja H. (Nov 6, 2020)

Hi, thankyou everyone who commented on this thread, it has been majorly helpful for me since I also learnt to avoid palmolein for beginner recipes and about other locally available cooking oils (I'm planning to make my first cold process soap soon n am gathering info currently), I was searching for Mahua butter SAP value and found this and now I joined this site as well.
I had a question, how much is the recommended % of Mahua butter can I use in my soap? Also I read a research paper on antimicrobial soap where they used Mahua butter and mentioned that it goes Rancid quickly, is that true for you? Thanks in advance 

For reference I'm planning to use the following oils since they're easily available and are cheap, and make a small batch first.
•Sunflower oil (hydrogenated/cooking oil)
•coconut oil (unrefined/we make it at home)
•castor oil
•palm oil (Rucha cooking oil as suggested above)
•Mahua oil (I had bought a 25ml sample to check it out from a supplier)


----------



## varshamanick (Nov 6, 2020)

Pooja H. said:


> Hi, thankyou everyone who commented on this thread, it has been majorly helpful for me since I also learnt to avoid palmolein for beginner recipes and about other locally available cooking oils (I'm planning to make my first cold process soap soon n am gathering info currently), I was searching for Mahua butter SAP value and found this and now I joined this site as well.
> I had a question, how much is the recommended % of Mahua butter can I use in my soap? Also I read a research paper on antimicrobial soap where they used Mahua butter and mentioned that it goes Rancid quickly, is that true for you? Thanks in advance
> 
> For reference I'm planning to use the following oils since they're easily available and are cheap, and make a small batch first.
> ...



Hey, Welcome to the forum.
I made a test batch with 10,15, 20 % Mahua Oil. All three worked fine. 20% was harder comparatively. It did not accelerate my trace. But with respect to Rancidity, I made it with 5% SF. It has been 2 Months. No DOS till now. I used "Mowrah Butter" in soap calc for Mahua Oil.

The cooking oil available at our Indian grocery stores are all Palmolein (I think you mean Ruchi Gold), not Palm Oil.
You can buy palm oil from soap makers/ suppliers mostly.


----------



## Pooja H. (Nov 6, 2020)

varshamanick said:


> Hey, Welcome to the forum.
> I made a test batch with 10,15, 20 % Mahua Oil. All three worked fine. 20% was harder comparatively. It did not accelerate my trace. But with respect to Rancidity, I made it with 5% SF. It has been 2 Months. No DOS till now. I used "Mowrah Butter" in soap calc for Mahua Oil.
> 
> The cooking oil available at our Indian grocery stores are all Palmolein (I think you mean Ruchi Gold), not Palm Oil.
> You can buy palm oil from soap makers/ suppliers mostly.



Thankyou for replying. If you don't mind, may I ask what is SF? 
And is it okay if I used the Ruchi Gold oil for making soap or should i use some other oil instead?


----------



## varshamanick (Nov 6, 2020)

Pooja H. said:


> Thankyou for replying. If you don't mind, may I ask what is SF?
> And is it okay if I used the Ruchi Gold oil for making soap or should i use some other oil instead?



I am a newbie too.
Started making soaps in June.
I used Ruchi gold for all my recipes until I recently realised its palmolein and not palm oil.
It's fine. Just Select Palmolein in Soapcalc and use it.

SF is Superfat.
Check this out for more details about SF:








						Superfatting Soap - An Explanation - Soap Queen
					

The superfat level is the amount of extra oil leftover in cold process soap. It adds luxury to the recipe. Learn more about superfatting your soap recipe.




					www.soapqueen.com
				




Soap making is a fun journey. Today you might feel like you know everything and tomorrow a completely new issue will pop up. The beginning is all about research and lot of trial and errors.


----------



## Pooja H. (Nov 6, 2020)

varshamanick said:


> I am a newbie too.
> Started making soaps in June.
> I used Ruchi gold for all my recipes until I recently realised its palmolein and not palm oil.
> It's fine. Just Select Palmolein in Soapcalc and use it.
> ...



Ohh thankyou so much for clearing my doubts!!  (Even tho its 2.43am currently )
I've read about super fatting but didn't connect the abbreviation with that. But you're right everyday some new information about this pops up and from one minute that I thought "I know everything and should just careful proceed at last" changes to "the understanding of soapcalc to a 5yr old" lol and like you said, I can only imagine how many times I'll have to troubleshoot when I'm actually making it. Ah well like they say, soap making is tests and trial most of the time, is true I guess and I think it's more fun that way. 
From a newbie to another "let the trace be with you"  and thanx again.


----------



## Dawni (Nov 6, 2020)

Illipe butter, what its known as in most of the rest of the world, is a completely different tree, Shorea stenoptera, and is mostly native to Indonesia and a few other places.

Mahua, or mowrah, is from both Madhuca trees, very common in most parts of India and less anywhere else.

SAP values will vary, depending on where the tree is, when stuff is harvested, etc. I'm going through the same research difficulty with a local oil as well. You will need to do a lot of small batch testing once you get a supplier of a consistent product, otherwise you might need to test every single time (usually the problem with unrefined oils direct from source but I love using those lol).

Haven't tried either but I did lots of research because I wanted to try them, and because I'm trying to import the Indian butters and oils coz they're very hard to find where I am now.

Not sure price wise if it's feasible for you guys, but Veda Oils in Delhi has competitive pricing and they sell bulk, and they have a lot of info on their products, plus free shipping anywhere in India if you reach 999 INR. They have butters, carrier and essential oils, etc.

There's also Lime Art in Coimbatore, smaller company so somewhat pricier but they also have relatively good pricing (compared to here, even if I include shipping costs). My SO has been there to check out stuff for me, and they're very informative as well, and have stuff that maybe hard to find elsewhere too.

If you're buying in Bulk there's also Aarnav Global in UP, but they're an exporter so might not have in small quantities but you can check. They quoted for me mango butter as low as 7kgs so maybe they can cater. They have a lot of products, including essential oils, carrier oils, butters, etc.

If you're looking to sell your soap, by all means to help out the small time suppliers by buying straight from them, but make sure you've done your thorough testing....


----------



## Pooja H. (Nov 7, 2020)

Dawni said:


> Illipe butter, what its known as in most of the rest of the world, is a completely different tree, Shorea stenoptera, and is mostly native to Indonesia and a few other places.
> 
> Mahua, or mowrah, is from both Madhuca trees, very common in most parts of India and less anywhere else.
> 
> ...



Thankyou for the information  , especially about the suppliers. Since I've recently started out that too with melt n pour soaps, I bought the ingredients for that from jindeal.com, their prices were comparatively cheaper and I also checked that they do carry few of the common oils n Butters like olive, palm, shea, cocoa etc. Then I also found theartconnect.in where they have a wide variety of oils n Butters like sal butter n other stuff (but compared to the oils carried by jindeal, its a tad bit expensive if not buying in bulk not to mention shipping 59/kg i think whereas jindeal charged only ₹150 for 10kg that I've currently ordered).
I did look at the Veda oils catalogue for their fragrance oils n essential oils and I was a bit skeptical cz they had the cheapest price per 100ml and when I checked the reviews on Google, they were pretty bad so I didn't order from them but glad to know you've had good experience from them.
I suggest aromakrafts.com for fancy fragrance oils n micas, the small order that I placed came neatly wrapped n the fragrances smell really good. (Just putting it out there for any lost newbie like me.)


----------



## Dawni (Nov 7, 2020)

Thank you too @Pooja H. I'll check those out too


----------



## varshamanick (Nov 7, 2020)

Hey Dawni,
Thank you for such a detailed response.

So SAP values may vary based on different factors. Good to know that. So I need to make test batches and stick with a good supplier. 

I have bought Carrier Oils, Butters and Essential Oils from Veda Oils. They even gave me more than the ordered quantity of butter. (Really surprised me when I weighed my freshly opened bag of 1 kg Shea butter and saw the machine show 1.25 Kgs)
Since they have a really cheap pricing and provide more than the ordered quantity, I had a doubt that they may be adulterating. And also their Tamanu oil was light green and not dark green. 









						Supplier Society |  Supplies & Packaging for everything DIY
					

Supplier Society is a one-stop shop that provides everything you will need in terms of DIY projects from raw materials to packaging solutions for cosmetics, baking projects, etc., like soap making, cakes and others




					www.suppliersociety.in
				



They are Erode, Tamil Nadu (near Coimbatore) based suppliers and wholesale soap makers. They have good quality products. Just check them out. They have excellent customer service.








						Sacred Fig
					

Kaviraj Mohanasundaram is the founder And CEO of Sitara Enterprises, a modern day skin care brand and also an Active CEO of Launch Media, a media company foc...




					www.youtube.com
				



This is their youtube channel. It is mostly in Tamil language. (Just for information)

My friend buys from LimeArt and really likes them. 
I will look into Aarnav Global, thanks for that.


----------



## Dawni (Nov 7, 2020)

Thank you @varshamanick! More places for Karthick to call or visit for me nyahaha

Hard to determine adulteration though.... For example, I've bought tamanu from the same supplier several times, who gets from their supplier all the time, and it's never the same shade of green.

I'm thinking it's like what they've learned about shea or illipe butters for example (as I also mentioned earlier), that color and scent will vary depending on the location of the tree/plant, season harvested, harvesters birthday (kidding lol) and so on.

This further hammers down the need for a lot of testing. If an oil is indeed adulterated, you should be able to notice the differences when you make it into soap often enough.....


----------



## varshamanick (Nov 8, 2020)

I wanted make my soaps palm free. Not having access to lard or tallow, I went to learn more about mahua oil/Mowrah butter.
This led to a lot of research, screen time, headaches and NO actual soap making. 
So I didn't want to waste my time on Mahua anymore. Bought sustainable palm oil and started making soaps. Now one big rack is full of curing soaps this makes me stay motivated.
But will make my brand palm free one day.


----------



## Dawni (Nov 8, 2020)

varshamanick said:


> I wanted make my soaps palm free. Not having access to lard or tallow, I went to learn more about mahua oil/Mowrah butter.
> This led to a lot of research, screen time, headaches and NO actual soap making.
> So I didn't want to waste my time on Mahua anymore. Bought sustainable palm oil and started making soaps. Now one big rack is full of curing soaps this makes me stay motivated.
> But will make my brand palm free one day.


I just found sustainable palm too. I think its a great oil, for lather n bubbles, and also hardness and longevity. Hits everything, and if its sustainable then great. 

There are others to try. You get kokum and mango with very good prices where you are, and there's more info on those than mowrah. Mango is rarely unrefined so it'll be more or less consistent, kokum less so but more than mowrah. By the time those get here they are 4-6x the price so for me the cheapest is local cocoa butter and I use it a lot for the vegan soaps.


----------



## MemphisJay (Nov 8, 2020)

Has anyone tried Interesterified Soy shortening?


----------



## sri496 (Mar 18, 2021)

I'm also learning on making hand made soaps. While I'm able to find palmolein oil, I''m not able to find palm oil supplier that can supply at reasonable cost. Palm oil costs from jindeals and theartconnect is very high. Can I know from where you purchased your Palm oil? That would help me a lot in starting my hand made soaps journey.


----------



## sang90 (Mar 19, 2021)

Hi, could someone please let me know if mahua oil in soap goes rancid quickly?


----------



## TheGecko (Mar 19, 2021)

Pooja H. said:


> But you're right everyday some new information about this pops up and from one minute that I thought "I know everything and should just careful proceed at last" changes to "the understanding of soapcalc to a 5yr old" lol



I don't think that any soap maker worth their salt (idiom) ever stops learning because there are so many facets to it.  There is the science of soap making, the magic of soap making, the creativity of soap making.  I feel very blessed to be in the US because of the access and availability of a huge range of ingredients...oils, butters, additives, etc and the lack of overall restrictions (not always a good thing).  But the other side of the coin, that lack of access and availability, and the restriction also lead to a great deal of creativity in producing quality soaps.


----------



## Charmed Heart (Jun 24, 2021)

MemphisJay said:


> Has anyone tried Interesterified Soy shortening?


No I haven't, but I am very interested. Have you tried it yet?


----------

