# Occupy Wall Street



## LushishLux (Oct 19, 2011)

Has anyone been following this movement? I am really excited about it. I hope something comes of all the protesting.


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## carebear (Oct 19, 2011)

I've yet to see a clear definition of what they hope to accomplish.  Exactly who is supposed to do what?


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## LushishLux (Oct 19, 2011)

They still have yet to come up with a clear message of what they want exactly however I do understand their over all message of wanting the 1% to pay their dues to society. They want these big business' to pay their taxes with out all of these loop holes. They are not protesting the people who work for these places they are protesting the CEOS,CFOs, COOs of these places who cut jobs just to give them selves more money.


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## carebear (Oct 19, 2011)

so they protest that there are rich people.  ok.

I wish more people understood that those scads of money "big businesses" make go to the little people through our stocks, our insurance policies, and many more ways.  Those companies are not individuals, they are investments.  And it is the responsibility and charter of a company to make money for it's shareholders.  Like us.

(and just because you haven't bought an individual stock doesn't mean you don't have a vested interest.  401K, insurance, pensions... all own stocks in large companies.  if you don't invest or have insurance - and you should - be aware that your municipality does, etc.)


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## khermsen (Oct 19, 2011)

Protests are an important arm of democracy. 

We the taxpayer bailed out Chrysler not once, but twice.


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## dagmar88 (Oct 19, 2011)

khermsen said:
			
		

> Protests are an important arm of democracy.
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> We* the taxpayer *bailed out Chrysler not once, but twice.



Who do you think is financing all these people who apparently have more then enough time to sit around?

You'd think with that much time on hand they could at least find a spokesperson and decide on a clear statement...

I'm all for protests when necessary, but well organized ones.


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## carebear (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree that protests are a tool of democracy, but it helps when the protesters know what they are protesting (saddened by the interviews that show many don't).  Seems to me they are expressing dissatisfaction in something, or lots of things, but don't know exactly what and have no idea what they want done to change things.

We, the taxpayers, are supporting the "protest".  Along with the company that owns the park, of course (and it's a big company - Brookfield Office Properties, which brings in over 1.5 billion dollars a year, with a CEO who made over 5,000,000 dollar in 2010).

I'm lost, though - we bailed out Chrysler which saved zillions of jobs, but you don't think that's a good thing?  Yet support protesting that some people have money (and jobs) while others don't?

Or am I once again confused.

Actually, that's the feel I've gotten from the whole thing - confused, mixed, contradictory messages.


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## carebear (Oct 19, 2011)

LushishLux said:
			
		

> Has anyone been following this movement? I am really excited about it. I hope something comes of all the protesting.



What do you hope comes of it all?  I really am trying to understand this, not trying to be obtuse.


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## Maythorn (Oct 19, 2011)

I think it's a good thing and I hope they accomplish something.  Many of the protesters are able to devote time to this because they have no jobs.  A lot of times a new movement like this needs time to gather strength, organize and streamline itself but I'm confident in the sincerity behind it.


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## Lindy (Oct 19, 2011)

It's almost like watching this generation's version of what happened to the banks in the 30's.  People then stormed the banks to demand their money and take what was due them because life had gotten scary with the crash of the stock markets.  (Okay that's paraphrased).

Before we set out to destroy big business let's consider who we are really hurting.  We're hurting the people who work there, the people who make as much or less than you do.  What have they done to you to deserve the loss of their jobs?  How many people do each of us know who works for a bank, Walmart, a national company of any kind?  Do you have a job to send them to after these monster big businesses are destroyed?  Or are we to become a Socialist continent where the government controls business, determines where you talents are best utilized and determines how much you need to live which they will give you.

North America is a capitalist society, some countries more than others, but the alternatives are not attractive.  People have died to give us the right to have these types of countries.  Are you saying their sacrifices are worth nothing?

We have men and women who continue to give their lives to protect our way of life - yes that includes protests, but it's also for the ability to be a capitalist nation.

I am unclear as to the true agenda here, maybe it's another method of the terrorists to undermine our countries?  I'm not saying that's true, but what better way to destroy a nation than through the might of it's own citizens?

Just sayin.......


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## LushishLux (Oct 19, 2011)

carebear said:
			
		

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I think its wrong that the people we bail out (i say we because I paid for part of it) decide its okay to give them self a bonus with that money and they should be punished. I am not against big business completely. they employee millions of people (im sure its more but thats just a number). Its not the people who are working the same as me. Its the heads of these companys who think its okay to skimp out on their taxes and leave people like us to foot the bill. moving your money over seas so you dont have to pay taxes on it is wrong. taking jobs away from people here who need them survive is wrong and should be stopped.  I don't have an action plan to make it all better otherwise I would have run for president by now but, we need help we need to stop this and punish those who are taking advantage of the system. I'm not saying bring down big business at all. I am not against people who make alot of money and still pay their dues. I work my butt off to have the few nice things I own (a car, an apartment, a new tv) and I still pay my fair share of taxes.


Wow that was a lot. I think my fingers are tired now lol


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## dagmar88 (Oct 20, 2011)

LushishLux said:
			
		

> taking jobs away from people here who need them survive is wrong and should be stopped.



How? On a small scale, if I'd have 3 employees and couldn't afford them anymore; would it be better to sack one or to go bankrupt and forced to sack all 3?


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## Dragonkaz (Oct 20, 2011)

We had 'Occupy Melbourne' on tele tonight, with snippets from other 'occupies' around the world.

I was impressed by the spread of ages shown in Melbourne and most of the other places.  It was great to see people aged in their 20's through to senior citizens.  Some of the people interviewed said this was a great opportunity to come into contact with some of the homeless people in Melbourne and there was a huge focus on the 'working poor' and 'fringe dwellers'.

Sleeping in tents in a park would be a challenge for many people and I hope that those involved achieve something that makes them happy with their effort!


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## LushishLux (Oct 20, 2011)

dagmar88 said:
			
		

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no not like that at all. I am talking like lets say you had 3,000 employees you COULD afford to pay and you decide "hey it would increase my profits by a million dollars if I fire all of these people and take the jobs over seas." 
I think its wrong. If you can't afford an employee that's a completely different situation.  I should have been more clear on that. my apologies


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## carebear (Oct 20, 2011)

and guess where most of those profits are going?  to the people who own the company.  which is regular folk for the most part.  people who have stock, sure, but also people who have retirement accounts (those old folk live off them), people with pensions, people who have insurance on their cars, homes, businesses... and many more. all have a vested interest in how much money that company makes.  

it's not just the employees who go to work, it's the whole world.


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## carebear (Oct 20, 2011)

LushishLux said:
			
		

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skimp on taxes?  they pay way more than we do in taxes for the most part.  and most pay what is required of them. what is this fair share?  If after paying your taxes you have some money left do you turn to the IRS and say "oh, here's extra for the country!!"?  if I make more than you, I generally pay more - but should there be a limit?  if people aren't allowed to keep what they earn and instead limits are placed on that - well I'm really not interested in living in a socialist country but I hear there are lots to choose from.

punish those who take advantage?  so even if they are following the rules and obeying the law, if it works to their advantage they should be punished?  

you lost me on the "taking away jobs" - who is doing that?  or rather, why are these jobs going away?  I missed something here.

in communist countries people all are "equal" (some more equal than others, but whatever) and no one gets to be rich.  work ethic suffers, though, and the economy falls apart, besides all the other things wrong with that system of government.  in socialist countries everyone pays for everyone and again work ethic suffers along with quality, and people pay over half their income in taxes.  but the US is neither, and I personally am good with that.  I'm far far from wealthy, but I like living in a capitalist society - it works.


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## dagmar88 (Oct 20, 2011)

carebear said:
			
		

> I'm far far from wealthy, but I like living in a capitalist society - it works.



 at least some of the time instead of not at all.


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## LushishLux (Oct 20, 2011)

carebear said:
			
		

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I think this person says what I am trying to say best. "Outsourcing is bad because it destroys jobs for Americans.

the people who lose their jobs must now find a new job they may not be as well qualified for as their old job. these people will also have more financial problems for some time which will slow down their spending on non-necessary things. this will hurt the economy in America as well as lower the quality of life for Americans.

With companies outsourcing they do not need to maintain as many facilities in the US and thus they are not taxed and thus the government does not make get money for the services it supplies. also companies that outsource do not need to follow the same production requirements as those of companies staying in the US.

Outsourcing is good for some businesses not necessarily the economy or the American people.

when companies outsource they nearly always save money, and are able if they want to reduce the prices of their products or keep them much lower than the competition. this hurts the small companies that can't outsource.

in the end it is about what think is a greater good. I personally value people living better lives where they can find work doing something they like or are good at vs letting a business make more money that most workers won't even notice."


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## PrairieCraft (Oct 20, 2011)

You have to remember though, that you and all of us benefit from the more affordable products. (I hesitate to include services, because overseas call centers suck)  We are all able to have so much more than we would if everything were made here.  That being said, a lot of people and especially the younger generation, look down on manufacturing jobs.  Starting in school, they make you feel like if you're not going to college and you're just going to work in a factory that you're a second class citizen.  Too many people think that they're above good hard labor.  I have a client who owns a manufacturing facility (B&B products oddly enough) and he was complaining recently that he hasn't had a white male apply for a job at his plant in over a decade.  He has some well paying positions available, they are being taken by people of different nationalities who come here for work and decent money.  Meanwhile Joe College sits in his parents basement and whines that he doesn't have a job.  

We have become a country of lazy, entitled cry babies who expect to have life's luxuries handed to them on a silver platter and when times are good and there's plenty for all, great.  When times get lean the people on the bottom rungs want to pull down the wealthy.  The rich are rich because of hard work, effort, stress, long hours, ambition...so many things that the majority of people don't possess or strive for.  How can you begrudge someone their wealth that they have worked hard for?  I have clients who are millionaires with 10,000 plus square foot homes and any material thing you could think of.  They are up at 5am to work by 7 don't come home until after 6pm, travel multiple times a month and have to participate in all kinds of work related activities on their free time.  If that sounds like a work schedule you would like to have then you could be rich too.  To me it isn't worth it to live life with no time to yourself.

If we all payed a flat income tax rate and it was 10% across the board, would that be fair?  Or would you expect those who make over a certain amount to pay 15 or 20% just because they have more?  Is that fair?  My husband and I only have small business but I would bet we paid 3 times or more in taxes last year than the majority of our friends and neighbors.  We aren't rich but we work hard and contribute our dues.  Seems to me the less people pay in taxes and the more benefits they receive the less they want to pay out and the more they expect to be handed to them.  Unless you're paying tens of thousands of dollars in income taxes do you really have anything to complain about?  We always figure that the more we owe the more we made and that's a good thing.

And all of this complaint about banks!  How do you think most of us got homes?  I was one of those who shouldn't have qualified as a 24 yr old buying my own home, alone, no co-signer.  7 years later, I'm still here while people twice my age have been foreclosed on.  Bad luck, no, the banks fault, no...bad financial management and overspending and drawing money off their home equity is what screwed them, not the bank.  Without a bank, I wouldn't be able to work for myself or have a nice vehicle to drive.  Banks are failing because the citizens have failed and dumped their responsibilities off on someone else.  Bigger banks will buy out struggling banks but this isn't creating a monopoly, it's creating a space for small banks to move up to mid sized banks and brand new small banks (started by successful citizens) to open.  

I suppose this may seem heartless to someone who has lost their job due to fallout from the financial crisis but damnit this is America, land of opportunity.  No one has ever handed that opportunity out you have to take it and create it yourself.  Do something else, create a new life, roll with the punches, get excited about a different way to make it.  Don't sit back and be complacent and put the blame on people who have more, it doesn't do anything but take your own self out of contention for money making opportunities.  My husband and I are happy all of these idiots are wasting their time protesting because while they do we will be working hard making our money and theirs because they have given up.

Disclaimer:  This is NOT directed at anyone in particular here or in real life.

Also, +1 to everything that Carebear has had to say!

And pardon my typos, this all came out in a quick rush and I don't have the time to go back over it.  Spelling and grammar nazis can suck it.


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## carebear (Oct 20, 2011)

LushishLux said:
			
		

> when companies outsource they nearly always save money, and are able if they want to reduce the prices of their products or keep them much lower than the competition. this hurts the small companies that can't outsource.


so you'd rather pay much much much more instead?  you might, perhaps, but the american people vote with their wallets and guess what, the WAAAAY vast majority go for the lower price.

competition is an important word here.  if you restrict how companies function then you eliminate competition.  competition is one reason that America is great.  without competition we end up with... communism and the like, and all the crap that goes with that (fiscal and ethical).  not my cup of tea.


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## IrishLass (Oct 21, 2011)

Thank you Carebear and PrairieCraft for taking the words right out of my mouth. 

The way I see it, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' economic system in the world where everything is 'fair'. Such a system does not exist. When you really think about it, human beings themselves are not 'perfect' or 'fair', so how can any system we come up with ever be 'perfect' or 'fair' to all?

Of all the systems out there, though, I have to say that Capitalism (to the extent that it's allowed to work without a lot of governmental intervention elbowing its way in) is the best of the lot. Does it ever get abused? Yes- and so do all the other systems- *but* unlike all the others, Capitalism provides the most opportunites and incentives for good work eithics to abound, thereby raising the standard of living for all across the board.  History has proven time and again that the same cannot be said of socialist/communist-type systems.

Aristotle, the famous Greek philosopher says it best for me when he stated centuries ago, "That which is common to the greatest number has the least care bestowed upon it." It was true then and it's still true today, because as I observe it, basic human nature is still the same as it's always been. People work best and hardest and are the most generous when what they've earned isn't cumpulsorily taken away from them and given to someone else. That just ruins all incentive for enthusiastice productivity. Who wants to put their heart and soul into something to make it the best it can be when it will only be taken away and handed to someone else? As Carebear said, work ethic suffers, and along with it, quality, and then it all just snowballs from there.

The Pilgrims learned that the hard way early on when they almost starved those first few years after they arrived at Plymouth. They basically proved Aristotle's statement correct, but were finally able to make a success of things when it was decided that everyone should be allowed to grow food for themselves and their own immediate families instead of sharing and producing work equally along communal lines. Once everyone started working for themselves, the Pilgrims were much more willing to work hard and they grew so much food that starvation was just a bad memory.

I don't know if you've ever read William Bradford's diary on those early starving years in Plymouth colony, but it's a pretty eye-opening case study on why Capitalism, although seemingly more 'greedy' is a more successful system than those that tout to be 'more fair and equitable'. In my opinion, that's because Capitalism takes into account and accepts as a given the greediness/selfishness of basic human nature and uses it to the best advantage for the benefit of all through competition, while other systems seem to begrudge the fact that we're basically greedy/selfish and they try to force everyone by law into not being greedy, which usually doesn't go over very well for long. People just don't like being forced, I've noticed.     

IrishLass


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## LushishLux (Oct 21, 2011)

Well then is it okay for these companies not to pay taxes on the work they out source? 
I do understand we are all to blame for the state of the economy (the fed, the banks, even the consumer) but something needs to happen to fix all of this. someone needs to be taxed more and if you continue to tax me anymore I am going to be out on the streets. I work 12 hour days 5 days a week to pay for my small apartment, and a car.  and Praire I do wish I could have know about your friend I would have jump on that job so quickly while I was living in chicago. I got told by every factory I applied for I didn't experience so they wouldn't hire me.


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## khermsen (Oct 21, 2011)

carebear said:
			
		

> What do you hope comes of it all?  I really am trying to understand this, not trying to be obtuse.



The protests have begun discussions like this that help us sort through who we are as a nation and how we will embrace globalization.

I appreciate reading and thinking about all the different views on the subject, helps me sort through how I feel about the recent economical changes in my life.


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## carebear (Oct 21, 2011)

khermsen said:
			
		

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excellent point


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## carebear (Oct 21, 2011)

IrishLass you are an amazing thinker and writer.  Wow.


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## Mouse (Oct 27, 2011)

I know this thread is aging, but I wanted to throw in my two cents.
How many oc you have been to an OWS protest? 
I have; and the basic outcry isn't a general  critique of capitalism.
Here are the general themes I've encountered, by signage, conversation, and in open forum:
Campaign finance law- this is a HUGE one.
Unjust war- see the last decade
Erosion of civil liberties in the name of 9/11-wiretapping, TSA, etc.
Monetary Policy
Federal Reserve-Audit the Fed movement
environmental degradation/corporate abuse
energy policy
Mass media-how many individuals now own every newspaper and TV station in the country? How low have journalistic ethics sunk as a result? Who do these corporations serve? It certainly isn't us, and they have incredible power to control the dialogue in this country-this thread is a great example. I've noticed how much support for the movement has eroded as mass media cry that the great unwashed lazy hippies are denouncing capitalism itself and threatening our great economic system...*sarcasm*
The truth is, there is no central message or demand. These are not all radical liberals that lean towards socialism. I've met just as many conservatives who believe in limited government. The problems are generally agreed upon, but viewpoints of solutions different. I see just as many Ron Paul supporrters who want to "starve the beast" as I do statists calling for redistribution.
There, I'm done...


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## Mouse (Oct 27, 2011)

...okay, not quite :/
Please find "Occupy Wall Street: Not Here to Destroy Capitalism, but to Remind Us who Saved It" from today's Huffington Post.
Excellent analysis.


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## Maythorn (Oct 27, 2011)

Well said, Irish Lass. I recently had a discussion with somebody who insisted he thought human nature had changed over the ages.  He said what about all the things we know now, all the advances?  And I said, that's progress and genius, not how we humans all really are. 

This is a smart thread and very thoughful of what's happening with this movement. I was sad to see it take a violent turn in Chicago.  I guess I want something good to come of all the energy and effort people have put forth.


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## IrishLass (Oct 28, 2011)

Maythorn said:
			
		

> Well said, Irish Lass. I recently had a discussion with somebody who insisted he thought human nature had changed over the ages.  He said what about all the things we know now, all the advances?  And I said, that's progress and genius, not how we humans all really are.




Well said yourself, Maythorn. I couldn't agree more.  


Mouse- thank you for your 'on-the-scene' report.    I will set aside some time tonight to read the article you mentioned.


IrishLass


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## LisaNY (Oct 29, 2011)

IrishLass said:
			
		

> Thank you Carebear and PrairieCraft for taking the words right out of my mouth.
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> The way I see it, there is no such thing as a 'perfect' economic system in the world where everything is 'fair'. Such a system does not exist. When you really think about it, human beings themselves are not 'perfect' or 'fair', so how can any system we come up with ever be 'perfect' or 'fair' to all?
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This! )


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