# If my tongue does not detect a zap, but I show pink on pheno drops, what do I trust?



## SoapingSara (Feb 21, 2015)

I made a batch of liquid soap yesterday.

65% olive, 25% coconut, 10% castor-I used the method of using glycerin mixed with KOH and cooked it over low heat until the liquid became clear. I added to my pre warmed oils and blended until I the start of bubbles floating around my hand and rose above my head. My crock pot was off and I simply placed a lit on the pot and went to bed. In the morning I checked the soap first with my touch of a spoon. It was a nice solid paste. I took a small sample and touched the soap to my tongue, it was nice and sweet. I next did a clarity test and my sample showed nice clear liquid soap using distilled water. 
All was goind just fine and I felt a great day had begun. I decided to add a couple of liquid drops to my clarity water sample using Pheno Drops. The drops right away turned pink.  This left me confused. Do I need to add Borax to my soap paste? I feel like checking my tongue into see the next doctor available becasue I feel tricked by that sweet taste. No Zap I was led to believe ment that the soap was usable and I am able to dilute when ready. 

The problem I have with PHENO drops is the fact that a PH of 8.2 to 12 will show pink. So, what do I trust, my tongue that says no zap, or my pheno drops that show pink when added to my sample?

What to do? What to do?:eh:

Thank you for your answer, I will consider all what is said to me


----------



## Susie (Feb 21, 2015)

You go with the no zap.  It is the only definitive safe/not safe test there is.  Liquid soap is, *of course*, going to test higher than 8.2. It is soap.  It is going to be alkaline when tested(and you are supposed to test the paste, not the liquid, IIRC.)  But it is safe!  Your tongue said so!

Congratulations on the soap!


----------



## SoapingSara (Feb 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> You go with the no zap.  It is the only definitive safe/not safe test there is.  Liquid soap is, *of course*, going to test higher than 8.2. It is soap.  It is going to be alkaline when tested(and you are supposed to test the paste, not the liquid, IIRC.)  But it is safe!  Your tongue said so!
> 
> Congratulations on the soap!





Well thank you for making things clear for me. With it being clear, I now feel confused about my process.

So, it is wrong of me to place drops of pheno Liquid into my clarity test?

Yes, come to think of it, I tend to get a pink drop everytime I do a clarity test regardless of how my tongue feels. Are you trying to tell me I have been testing wrong the whole time I have been making liquid soap (lol, a whole 3 times with the same results per time testing the clarity water with drops, and my tongue with the paste)? 
You mentioned that I am supposed to test the paste in your quote, well, just for laughes and giggles I went to my paste just now due to I had some of it reserved, and I took out a tiny couple of gram sample of the paste. Then dropped 2 tiny drops of pheno liquid onto it. Guess what happend? Nothing! The drops were clear as a bell, but if I add distilled water onto the tiny soap paste, bubble it up a bit, add thepheno drops, then I right away will get pink color. Huh?!

Please humor me and act like I am a newbie ( ha ha ha :angel and please tell me exactly how to test my soap paste the right way? I swear I have read someplace on this forum to test the clarity water. Man O Man :roll:

Thank you my new  friend that is super smart! :clap:

I have been making cold process soap for around 3 years so I fully understand what zappy feels like, at least with a cold process soap. That being said, I feel like I do have a good understanding of what zappy is regardless if it is bar soap or liquid soap. I guess it would appear my mistake as been with the process of how I test with the pheno drops. Hmmm, I am glad I asked this question now!


----------



## IrishLass (Feb 21, 2015)

Testing soap with phenol only works properly if a 1% solution is made out of 1 gram soap dissolved in 99 grams distilled water, to which you would then add the phenol drops. But even then, it is hard to judge exact pH unless you have a really good eye for different shades of pink, since phenol turns various shades of pink from 8.2 pH to 12 pH. By the way, phenol goes clear from 0 - 8.2 pH, and also over 12 pH.

It is one of my biggest pet peeves to see many of the liquid soap-makers on YouTube encouraging people to test their soap paste by dropping a few drops directly onto the paste. Grrr!

I'm 100% with Susie on this- go with the zap test directly with the paste. If your paste is tongue-neutral, then you have nothing to worry about. 


IrishLass


----------



## Susie (Feb 21, 2015)

Thanks, IrishLass!  I knew the test the paste thing might be wrong, but the tongue never is.  I don't use pheno.  Never have.  I learned to zap test, and that is what I stuck with.  I do own a pH meter, but I actually bought it for something else, and I occasionally test soap with it.  ONLY when I am doing something wildly different(like trying to make soap to use in the dishwasher). I don't clarity test, either.  I need to know if the soap is _*safe*_, not clear.  

If you are going to add preservatives, and MUST have the correct pH reading, buy a good pH meter.  One you can calibrate.  They are not terribly expensive.


----------



## SoapingSara (Feb 21, 2015)

Ok, I like this answer the best! The tongue gets to be the final answer!
You ladies are in the zone :clap:
That said, if I do get zapped, and then I need to add borax to it, can I re-test the soap with my tongue? Not sure if Borax is edible, per say.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 21, 2015)

Have you looked at the non-borax method? It's in this liquid soap section


----------



## Susie (Feb 21, 2015)

I have never once used Borax for liquid soap that it turned out well.  It was not a good thing!  I learned what it took to make liquid soap with the fewest steps, and therefore fewest potential complications, and I have pretty much stuck with that.

If you use a good lye calculator, with at least a 0% SF, and follow the subsequent recipe(using a good scale), there is no reason, whatsoever, that you have a zappy liquid soap paste that requires more than time to fix it.  I don't even cook soap, though, so maybe I am not the correct person to answer this.  All I do on a zappy paste is let it sit a bit longer.  That's it.  Nothing complicated.


----------



## new12soap (Feb 21, 2015)

I have 2 questions, Soaping Sara;

1) Did you formulate your soap with any superfat? Using a good calculator, with a 0-3% superfat, AND allowing for the "purity" of the KOH (which the 2 soapcalcs I know of and use personally have purity built in or as an option), you should not need to neutralize with borax or anything else. Only if you used a negative superfat (lye excess) or had a measurement problem.

2) Where exactly on your tongue did you zap test the soap? Tasting the soap on the flat part of your tongue may or may not be as sensitive as testing with the very tip of your tongue. I am guessing that is how you did it, but you didn't specifically say, and when you described the soap as sweet that made me wonder. Just want to be clear about zap test, not only for your benefit but for anyone else that comes along and reads the thread.

I completely agree with the previous advice you have been given. Use a good calculator, don't use a lye excess, use a good scale, use the zap test to make sure your soap is done. Ta-Da!

Forget pH testing, soap is alkaline.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2015)

The problem with testing with phenol-p on soap paste is that you aren't checking for the concentration of H+ ions in a solution of soap in water, you are checking  the presence of H+ ions on the surface of a gel. 

Some people cook their LS for hours and even days to get a colorless test from phenol-p on their soap paste, but I suspect it's more about cooking out enough water so the ions are mostly trapped within the gel structure rather than on the surface of the gel.

But I can argue this and cite scholarly and industry references to support my views ... and not change anyone's point of view about using phenol-p for testing soap.

Bottom line  for me ...the zap test is the way to go unless one wants to do a full blown alkalinity test.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk HD


----------



## SoapingSara (Feb 22, 2015)

Apologies, I will try my best to include the facts of my endeavors as I understand that the more information provided, the better one can assist in the development of the end results. I will step up and provide all information.

3% superfat
used a soap calculator: http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps
I use a GOOD Scale:Escali
I test at the tip of my tongue for zap, saying that, I also taste the soap when I do this....don't you? I find the need to brush my teeth every time :grin:


----------



## SoapingSara (Feb 22, 2015)

I will be doing only a zap test noted to be on the tip of my tongue for now on with no need to do a ph test. Thank you for everyone that helped out on the making of this thread, I appreceate you!


----------



## Susie (Feb 22, 2015)

SoapingSara said:


> Apologies, I will try my best to include the facts of my endeavors as I understand that the more information provided, the better one can assist in the development of the end results. I will step up and provide all information.
> 
> 3% superfat
> used a soap calculator: http://summerbeemeadow.com/content/advanced-calculator-solid-cream-or-liquid-soaps
> ...



Yes, the more information you give us on the front end, the faster we can help you, and you get better answers.  But you did well!  

I taste the soap, also.  I just don't brush my teeth, I guess my mouth was exposed to more soap when I was a child.:roll:


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2015)

I find it preemptively reduces my swearing......


----------



## IrishLass (Feb 22, 2015)

SoapingSara said:


> I test at the tip of my tongue for zap, saying that, I also taste the soap when I do this....don't you? I find the need to brush my teeth every time :grin:


 
I test the same way as you, and yes, taste happens for me when I test, too (say that 10 times real fast). lol

I just do a brief rinse and spit if I feel the need to. 




			
				The Efficacious Gentleman said:
			
		

> I find it preemptively reduces my swearing......


 
To funny! That reminds me....when I was about 9, I made the mistake of angrily swearing at my sister, who was my mortal enemy back then (though we are best friends now). She ran into the house to tell my mom and shortly came back out to gleefully tell me that Mom told her to tell me to go right into the bathroom and brush my teeth with soap _and pepper_. I should've fact-checked with my mom first, but being terrified of facing my mom, I went and did what my sis instructed. Moral of the story....I didn't swear much after that...... but the few times that I did, I made sure my sis wasn't around to hear it. lol 

By the way, it wasn't until I was an adult that I learned from my sis that she had never even told my mom I had swore at her. :twisted: Thankfully, I can laugh about it now. 


IrishLass


----------



## SoapingSara (Feb 22, 2015)

the efficacious gentleman said:


> i find it preemptively reduces my swearing......



ha ha ha


----------

