# Syndet shampoo bar recipe help needed



## Gaisy59 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi I am trying to formulate a syndet shampoo bar for my curly dry hair. I bought Swift Craft Monkeys shampoo bar book and have tried to formulate something for me and would like input before I purchase all the ingredients. Please jump in with suggestions thanks to all in advance.


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## cmzaha (Nov 3, 2019)

I do not like the syndet bar from Susan. My experience with it is it gets very mushy after one use. The basics of it are okay but it takes some experimentation to get it to hold up.


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## Dahila (Nov 3, 2019)

too much liquid ,  I make my own,  I tried like 4 from her books and all soft to the very end you could squeeze it like a ball . 30% of Slsa is just too much for me


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 3, 2019)

Dahila said:


> too much liquid ,  I make my own,  I tried like 4 from her books and all soft to the very end you could squeeze it like a ball . 30% of Slsa is just too much for me



Sighhhh, having read the forums everyone seems to have liked Susan. So back to square one then. Maybe I will try Humblebee instead, but from what I can see she hasn’t developed anything for dry hair.


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## Obsidian (Nov 3, 2019)

Here is a recipe I use on my hair. Most of the time I don't have to use a conditioner, at least I didn't until I bleached my hair a few months back.
Even with it being bleached and damaged, this bar isn't as harsh as commercial shampoo.

They can get a little soft after a couple weeks if not able to dry really well between uses but it didn't become squishy.

Heated powder ingredients- add colorant here if using, micas work great.
SCI 32%
cetyl alcohol 5%
BTMS25 7%
Incroquat CR 5%
Shea butter (any butter will work) 5%
SLSa 28%

Liquid heated ingredients (mix with powders)
Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate 6%
Cocamidopropyl Betaine 6%

Cool down phase
Silk amino acids 1%
Panthenol 1%
Dimethicone 1%
Cyclomethicone 1%
CTAC 1%
Preservative 1%
Fragrance 1-3%

melt heated phase at 30 second bursts in microwave. Make sure not to burn or overheat, it will puff up and come out of your bowl if you do. Will resemble applesauce when melted.
Cool down to the appropriate temps for your preservative. Add preservative, additives and fragrance, mix well and quickly pour into molds.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 3, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> I do not like the syndet bar from Susan. My experience with it is it gets very mushy after one use. The basics of it are okay but it takes some experimentation to get it to hold up.



unfortunately i am not good at experimenting. I can follow a recipe and make stuff but chemistry was not my strong suit. Making soap I can do lol



Obsidian said:


> Here is a recipe I use on my hair. Most of the time I don't have to use a conditioner, at least I didn't until I bleached my hair a few months back.
> Even with it being bleached and damaged, this bar isn't as harsh as commercial shampoo.
> 
> They can get a little soft after a couple weeks if not able to dry really well between uses but it didn't become squishy.
> ...



I see you added more SCI which is ok because it is gentle. I saw cetyl alcohol in Susans recipe but wasn’t sure what it brought to the bar...
My recipe had BTMS-50 is there a difference  between 50 and btms-25? And why do you have incroquat and btms separately when I have incroquat btms?

can I use oat protein in place of silk amino acids or do you prefer the silk?

Do you not use sodium lactaid? It is my understanding that it helps harden the bar.

Wow it seems I have fallen down a never ending hole with this project. Its more complicated than I thought.



Obsidian said:


> Here is a recipe I use on my hair. Most of the time I don't have to use a conditioner, at least I didn't until I bleached my hair a few months back.
> Even with it being bleached and damaged, this bar isn't as harsh as commercial shampoo.
> 
> They can get a little soft after a couple weeks if not able to dry really well between uses but it didn't become squishy.
> ...



Oh how rude of me...thanks so much for your help Obsidian. I am trying to get rid of as much plastic as I can and that’s why I am trying to make my own shampoo bars.


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## Obsidian (Nov 3, 2019)

Unfortunately, I can't answer your questions about different ingredients. This recipe was given to me, I'm not good at formulating things like this myself.

I do think replace silk with the oat protein should be fine.

I was told what to add to try and harden the bar but I forgot what it was.


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## Dahila (Nov 3, 2019)

I started with Susan one , but made probably like 50 small batches , each time changing a bit,  Now I have very stable formula, which I use to press.  Mine is kind of similar to Obsidian.  You can use any protein you like.  I use Keratin and silk because of tiny molecules,


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## SoaperForLife (Nov 4, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> I see you added more SCI which is ok because it is gentle. I saw cetyl alcohol in Susans recipe but wasn’t sure what it brought to the bar...
> My recipe had BTMS-50 is there a difference between 50 and btms-25? And why do you have incroquat and btms separately when I have incroquat btms?


Cetyl alcohol can be incorporated into a recipe to increase the hardness and it can also give oil free moisturization.  BTMS 50 is better than BTMS 25 because it has more active ingredients plus a humectant.  To save money, you can sub equal parts BTMS 25 and Incroquat CR for the BTMS 50.  I know that sodium lactate is suggested to make the bar harder in Susan's recipes but I have not found that to be the case with my bars.  Sodium lactate is a humectant which means it draws water from the air.  Last thing I want to do is draw water to my shampoo bar when not in use.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 4, 2019)

I also have wondered about the use of sodium lactate -- Susan says it's a required ingredient. Having tried it, my opinion is different. The SL causes the product to get a lot softer in humid weather. If it works well for her and other people, that's all good, but I'm getting better results without it.


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## KimberLea (Nov 4, 2019)

I'm so glad I checked in this morning, I lurk alot, but very seldom comment. I have been making shampoo bars for awhile and want to change to syndet bars, this will be so helpful. I've also experienced a problem with my HP soap lately that has been driving me nuts. My soap has been sweating and it has ruined a few batches. I have gone through my oils etc and couldn't figure out what was going on. Thanks to this post I believe it's the addition of Sodium Lactate!!! Seems to work just fine in my CP GM soaps, but not well at all for my HP soaps. 
Sorry to get off subject, but I'm just so grateful to figure it out!! Thank you all


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 4, 2019)

SoaperForLife said:


> Cetyl alcohol can be incorporated into a recipe to increase the hardness and it can also give oil free moisturization.  BTMS 50 is better than BTMS 25 because it has more active ingredients plus a humectant.  To save money, you can sub equal parts BTMS 25 and Incroquat CR for the BTMS 50.  I know that sodium lactate is suggested to make the bar harder in Susan's recipes but I have not found that to be the case with my bars.  Sodium lactate is a humectant which means it draws water from the air.  Last thing I want to do is draw water to my shampoo bar when not in use.



Thanks so much SoaperForLife! Things are starting to make more sense. I researched these last night but didn’t get this kind of information on them. It did say that cetyl was good because it was non-filming for hair. I would rather invest in btms-50 just because it is one additive instead of two.

@KimberLea I am glad this is helping because we are both learning from this. I never used sodium lactate for my soap and now glad I didn’t.

Hopefully we can both come up with a favorite syndet bar.

I am a little disappointed in Swift Craft Monkey though. If a product doesn’t help a formula why use it? Also, how can it possibly work for some and not others if it’s properties state that it draws in moisture?

Anyway, back to the drawing board for my bar. Stay tuned ladies to see what I come up with


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## Dawni (Nov 4, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> Also, how can it possibly work for some and not others if it’s properties state that it draws in moisture?
> 
> Anyway, back to the drawing board for my bar. Stay tuned ladies to see what I come up with


I think a lot depends on how much moisture there is to draw in. I'm sure what works for someone in a dry climate will not work for me, with 75-100% humidity almost everyday. I'm talking about both the bar and hair here. 

Looking forward to your results


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## Dahila (Nov 5, 2019)

Susan syndets is a good starting point.  The problem there is too much liquid if you lower the liquids it comes as decent syndet


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2019)

@Dawni is right -- humidity makes a BIG difference. Susan lives, IIRC, in British Columbia, Canada. I have no idea what her climate is like, but I suspect it's generally less humid overall than where I live. 

Pretty much any 'poo bar I've made stays reasonably firm in our dry winter air. Only a few recipes have been acceptable in summer, however, when it's very humid.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 5, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> @Dawni is right -- humidity makes a BIG difference. Susan lives, IIRC, in British Columbia, Canada. I have no idea what her climate is like, but I suspect it's generally less humid overall than where I live.
> 
> Pretty much any 'poo bar I've made stays reasonably firm in our dry winter air. Only a few recipes have been acceptable in summer, however, when it's very humid.



Yes I live in the Canadian prairies and it does get humid.  Not sure what part ofBC Susan is in but the coastal regions would be humid for sure. I think the cetyl alcohol Obsidian mentioned makes way more sense to harden the bar and provide some emollients. I like the idea of a hard bar especially when travelling.



Dahila said:


> Susan syndets is a good starting point.  The problem there is too much liquid if you lower the liquids it comes as decent syndet



That sounds good Dahila. I will remove the sodium lactate and use the cetyl alcohol instead and i was thinking of taking the SLSa down to 28%. I was researching the btms-25 Obsidian uses and I might switch to that instead of btms-50 but still waffling.


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## Dahila (Nov 5, 2019)

Bmts 25 is almost the same you just need to use double amount of it ,  Bmts 50 is much easier to work with.  I also got BMTS plus which is very good for hair but pricey;  inci name; Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Behentrimonium Methosulfate.  The thing Susans do is shiny hair,  I have the hair care ; her book and it is good,  I used some formulas to start the conditioner.  They do not sell well cause of price, so I started to make very cool ones just for myself... To get better hardness use 1% of stearic acid and the rest Cetreal or cetyl. it makes a different,  1% so it is not draggy on hair.  you need humectant also so maybe Panthenol is a good option if powder 1% is enough 
Susan is in BC so also very humid.    I keep my house cool and ac running dehumidifier too so maybe is not so bad,  Mine formula is completely dry in few minutes in shower,  the one from her book is very nice but stays wet for about two to three hours


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 5, 2019)

Dahila said:


> Bmts 25 is almost the same you just need to use double amount of it ,  Bmts 50 is much easier to work with.  I also got BMTS plus which is very good for hair but pricey;  inci name; Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Behentrimonium Methosulfate.  The thing Susans do is shiny hair,  I have the hair care ; her book and it is good,  I used some formulas to start the conditioner.  They do not sell well cause of price, so I started to make very cool ones just for myself... To get better hardness use 1% of stearic acid and the rest Cetreal or cetyl. it makes a different,  1% so it is not draggy on hair.  you need humectant also so maybe Panthenol is a good option if powder 1% is enough
> Susan is in BC so also very humid.    I keep my house cool and ac running dehumidifier too so maybe is not so bad,  Mine formula is completely dry in few minutes in shower,  the one from her book is very nice but stays wet for about two to three hours



Ok then I just reviewed btms-50 and if you like it I will stick with that. Do you recommend I should get her hair care book? I too would like to try a conditioner bar after I hurdle the shampoo bar.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 5, 2019)

Ok here is what I have put together for curly dry hair (mine):

SCI Phase
30% SCI noodles
20% Amphosol CG
10% kokum butter

Other Stuff Phase
28% SLSa
 3% BTMS-50
 5% cetyl alcohol
1.5% silk amino acid

Cool Down Phase
1% Fragrance
1% Panthenol
.05 Germall Plus

The only thing is I am short by 0.5% and I don’t know what to do about that.

So my reasoning:
SCI noodles have more fatty acids for dry hair and good ph. Amphosol CG has good ph. Kokum butter is supposed to be good for hair but would you suggest Jojoba instead? 
SLSa has a good ph. BTMS-50 is a good emulsifier, A’s is the cetyl alcohol. 

All of these are within 5-7 ph which is good for hair and would not need any adjusting.

OK any comments?


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## Ashleigh (Nov 5, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> .05 Germall Plus



Hi @Gaisy59, I would suggest double checking the usage rate for this, because I think it is supposed to be 0.5% not 0.05%.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 5, 2019)

Ashleigh said:


> Hi @Gaisy59, I would suggest double checking the usage rate for this, because I think it is supposed to be 0.5% not 0.05%.



Thanks so much Ashleigh! It is supposed to be 0.5%!  I am so glad I have asked for help I would have totally missed that.


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## Ashleigh (Nov 5, 2019)

You're very welcome! So easy to miss when working with so many ingredients and small numbers.

Your post reminded me that I have some Kokum butter to use and I've been wanting to try a syndet bar again so this was good timing. I based my first one off of swift craft monkey's recipe with some small tweaks and it didn't hold up well so I've wanted to give it another shot.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 5, 2019)

@Ashleigh i bought swift craft monkey’s shampoo bar book because i had no idea where to start. It was very informative. I am trying to work it for my curly dry hair and as for something i would like to use.  Im hoping this will work and not need too much tweaking. This forum has already been helpful regarding the sodium lactate and of course you found my math error lol.

Good luck with your formulation!


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## Dahila (Nov 5, 2019)

add more slsa,  it looks good ,  and lower the cB a bit Amphosol  I used the Varisoft too (high ph) so you need to ajust it,  I can not see the difference after washing both are good but BMTS 50 is cheaper and it never failed me .   I bought Susans book or books , to support her not to use it,  . Whatever I know I learned it following her blog, from very beginning.  I have " Formulating Facial products" and I was using it a lot but not anymore. I use info I put into soapmaker 3 ,  each of the ingredients i have inci name,  and usage rates and what kind of ie emulsifier it is anoninc katonic non inonic
I believe Susan deserve our support,  I am also subscriber on her blog .


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 5, 2019)

Hi Dahila. You are right about the varisoft.  I looked it up and it is too finicky for a newbie like me. Apparently you have to bring down the ph to 5 for it to work.  So yes I will stick with the btms. I see where you are going with the Amphosol. You did say Susans bars were too soft so I will decrease the amphosol to 18% and the SLSa will increase to 30%. Both good surfactants but increase the dry and decrease the wet (wasn’t thinking). Do you think that will be enough?


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 5, 2019)

Also I was thinking of using grapefruit, tea tree and rosemary for the scent. I love the smell of grapefruit


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## Dahila (Nov 5, 2019)

I use combination of rosemary, lemon and cedarwood,  Even using Bmts 50 (6ph) I do adjust to 4.68 ph,  I am not happy with higher,  5 is fine but if bmts and slasa is 6 it is hard to have lower ph.  Many people do not adjust and they are fine,  I do adjust, a lot of fun with it  I love measuring, making solutions and excetera
Varisoft is nice but it drifts up to 9 ph, very high


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## Dawni (Nov 5, 2019)

@Dahila how do you test for ph in syndet bars? Do test strips work? I know they're not very reliable for soap... Or do you have a gadget for testing ph?


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 5, 2019)

I will do a newbie answer...Susan from Swift Craft Monkey has a gadget and a system.  This is a whole process which is why I wanted to stay with products that are in the 5-7 ph range.  Let's see what Dahila does.


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## Dahila (Nov 6, 2019)

I do not believe in strips , I use ph meter and yes I test each batch,   However I had a plastic strips from Formulator Store (I think that's the name) and they are incredible accurate when ph is 4.6 they show 5 , which surprise me every time I use them,  I use them to check how low is ph then the meter. 
Susan explains so well how to adjust it and how to measure,  You could use strips just for general information
link to good strips,  They costed so much cause I am in Canada, but they are the best I have  .  Link: https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/pH-Fix-Indicator-Strips-10-Pack-p/fssd22020.htm
you need to make solution 5grams  of syndet bar 45 of distilled water then measure it,  I use ph meter 5 g of syndet 95 g of DW. easy peasy


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## Dawni (Nov 6, 2019)

Thank you @Dahila


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## DeeAnna (Nov 6, 2019)

The pH Fix strips are manufactured by Machery Nagel and they do have a decent reputation. Look around online or locally for the Machery Nagel name if you don't want to or can't buy from Dahlia's source. Even the M-N strips are inaccurate if a person doesn't use them correctly -- Dahlia's advice about that is spot on too.


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## Dahila (Nov 6, 2019)

Thank you DeeAnna I just put it in my wish list in amazon,  They are so expensive is $56 CAD for 100 strips


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## amd (Nov 6, 2019)

*Disclaimer: I am not an expert by any means, but I've been researching syndet shampoo bars very diligently for almost 18 months now. I've made a few different recipes as well.*



Gaisy59 said:


> Maybe I will try Humblebee instead, but from what I can see she hasn’t developed anything for dry hair.


I have dry hair, prone to being frizzy, and have been using the recently published clay bar for two weeks now. I subbed bentonite clay because I had no rhassoul. It's amazing! I do have to use a light conditioner with this one though. I love this one so much, I shared a bar with my mom.
https://www.humblebeeandme.com/chocolate-rhassoul-shampoo-bars/



Gaisy59 said:


> Do you not use sodium lactaid? It is my understanding that it helps harden the bar.





DeeAnna said:


> The SL causes the product to get a lot softer in humid weather. If it works well for her and other people, that's all good, but I'm getting better results without it.


I agree with DeeAnna on this one too! @DeeAnna I meant to get back to you regarding a discussion we had about the WSP recipes using SL and how the bars stood up to my lack of air conditioning in the summer. Well, this summer we only had about a week where the humidity was high enough to make the house uncomfortable. The WSP bars turned to mush. I made a new batch subbing out the SL for stearic acid. We'll see how those do next summer 



Gaisy59 said:


> Do you recommend I should get her hair care book?


I don't know about SCM's book, but I will tell you to save your money and NOT buy the Lisa Lise book. I have not been able to make a single recipe from that book yet because so many of the ingredients are either hard to find or expensive. You don't dare use substitutions because she uses hurdle method to make the bars self-preserving. Just my two cents.



Gaisy59 said:


> Wow it seems I have fallen down a never ending hole with this project.


Welcome to my world!

There's a few recipes I have tried that I really like:
WSP recipes https://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/Handmade-Magazine/12492/Handmade.aspx#p=24
I have made all four of the recipes and I liked them all, although they don't give alot of luxurious suds like you see with other shampoo bars. My only complaint with these was that they are not good for colored hair, I'm not sure why as the recipes are sulfate free. The moisturizing bar seems to be the most popular, I have 3 customers who will have me do custom orders of the moisturizing bar - one of those customers has naturally curly hair. See my note to DeeAnna above regarding subbing out the sodium lactate.

DIY Bath & Body https://www.etsy.com/listing/630191706/diy-solid-shampoo-bars-sci-version-2?ref=shop_home_feat_1
Their recipe calls for argan oil, but I hate to use up my precious argan oil in a wash off product, so I subbed with avocado oil. My husband has really oily skin and hair, and this recipe worked well for his hair, I have drier coarser hair and most days I can go without conditioning, so I think this recipe really covers a lot of hair types. It gives the gorgeous sudsy lather. I used this one for a solid month, until I made the clay bar.


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## KiwiMoose (Nov 6, 2019)

Thanks all - interesting thread.  I fell down this rabbit hole some time ago and was overwhelmed so climbed back out.  I'm feeling a bit tempted to fall back in again now!


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## justjacqui (Nov 6, 2019)

I have based my shampoo bars off Swifts original formula guidelines and quite like them. I don't find them soft at all. I don't add any butters (I just make up the difference with some extra SCI). I use 65% solid surfactants (SCI and SLSa) and 26% Cocoamidopropyl betaine, with BTMS, Cetearyl Alcohol, Fragrance, Oat Proteins and Preservative making up the remainder. They work best if you leave them a few days before using.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 6, 2019)

@amd welcome to my rabbit hole lol.  It's crazy isn't it!  I am a subscriber to both SCM and Humblebee because they deserve my support.  All the amazing stuff they try is fantastic! I saw Marie's shampoo bar but that was before I did all my research.  I know a very little bit more now and will go back and review...thanks for that.  

And yes I am going to steer clear of SL.  I am sooo glad I asked for help because everyone has said the same thing...it sucks in water.  Kind of weird that Susan would use it, but everything works differently for everybody.

Thank you for those links.  I was just going to put in my order when these showed up.  I am going to review them for sure.  I too don't know why colored hair would be affected.  Everything I have read so far says one thing...syndet shampoo bars do not affect color.

All righty, back into the hole lol


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 6, 2019)

justjacqui said:


> I have based my shampoo bars off Swifts original formula guidelines and quite like them. I don't find them soft at all. I don't add any butters (I just make up the difference with some extra SCI). I use 65% solid surfactants (SCI and SLSa) and 26% Cocoamidopropyl betaine, with BTMS, Cetearyl Alcohol, Fragrance, Oat Proteins and Preservative making up the remainder. They work best if you leave them a few days before using.



Hey justjacqui my daughter is touring Australia as we chat.  So as far as I can see you have a similar recipe to the one I compiled except for the Kokum butter.  My understanding is that Jojoba, Kokum etc make the hair feel good so why have you left it out of your formula??  Don't get me wrong I am all for keeping it simple, but what is your reasoning?  Have you tried with and without?


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## DeeAnna (Nov 6, 2019)

_"...Kind of weird that Susan would use it, but everything works differently for everybody...."_

I think that's it in a nutshell. Sodium lactate works for her. It doesn't necessarily work for other people. Some people make a pressed "bath bomb" type of bar; Susan melts her ingredients (as do I).

I think the common ground for everyone making syndet shampoo bars is a very high % of solid surfactants bound together with a minimum of liquids, usually in the form of liquid surfactants.

Ideally there will be two or more surfactants to build in mildness. A small % of BTMS or its generic equivalent to add hardness and also build in mildness. Preservative.

Optional -- Proteins, humectants, a thickener such as stearic acid or cetyl alcohol, solid fats, silicones or equivalent, fragrance, color. A pH adjuster if the surfactants have a high pH.

My current bars don't have any added solid fats either, @Gaisy59. I've made bars with and without. I think my hair combs out a little easier if my bars contain a small % of any kind of solid fat, but I don't think it's an absolute necessity. I think I'd be more reluctant to remove the BTMS from my formulation.

I've used tallow, coconut oil, babassu and they all work fine, but the higher the melt point the better so the bars stay as firm as possible. I don't think liquid fats would work well in my shampoo bars, no matter how nice I think jojoba is. But maybe that works for you.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 6, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...Kind of weird that Susan would use it, but everything works differently for everybody...."_
> 
> I think that's it in a nutshell. Sodium lactate works for her. It doesn't necessarily work for other people. Some people make a pressed "bath bomb" type of bar; Susan melts her ingredients (as do I).
> 
> ...



Thanks DeeAnna so far I have my solid and liquid surfactants, my BTMS 50, a thickener, humectant and cetyl alcohol.  Perhaps I will leave the jojoba oil out.  I was going to use kokum butter but that is adding an expense and two of you so far do not use any butters. I will omit the 10% butter and up the SCI, SLSa and a touch of the BTMS-50.

My next step would be to make a conditioner bar so perhaps I could use kokum butter there.  But first things first.  So what I can see from all of the above is that I am on the right track.


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## justjacqui (Nov 6, 2019)

Gaisy59 said:


> Hey justjacqui my daughter is touring Australia as we chat.  So as far as I can see you have a similar recipe to the one I compiled except for the Kokum butter.  My understanding is that Jojoba, Kokum etc make the hair feel good so why have you left it out of your formula??  Don't get me wrong I am all for keeping it simple, but what is your reasoning?  Have you tried with and without?


I just leave the oils/butters for the conditioner bar. If I was planning on a more 2 in 1 shampoo/conditioner bar I would consider it but I am happy to also use the conditioner bar. In liquid shampoos oils just decrease foaming.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 7, 2019)

justjacqui said:


> I just leave the oils/butters for the conditioner bar. If I was planning on a more 2 in 1 shampoo/conditioner bar I would consider it but I am happy to also use the conditioner bar. In liquid shampoos oils just decrease foaming.



Ok that makes sense. I do not want a 2 in 1 as those types of shampoos left my hair heavy and oily.


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## Ashleigh (Nov 7, 2019)

justjacqui said:


> I just leave the oils/butters for the conditioner bar. If I was planning on a more 2 in 1 shampoo/conditioner bar I would consider it but I am happy to also use the conditioner bar. In liquid shampoos oils just decrease foaming.



This is so good to know! One less ingredient to worry about and it may bring the cost down if ever deciding to sell. Hopefully I have a chance this weekend to give the shampoo bars another shot, you guys have me excited to get formulating!


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## SoaperForLife (Nov 10, 2019)

In SCM's question section for shampoo bars someone named Sarah had asked about using Varisoft EQ 65 and Susan had responded that if you use SCI or other pH balanced ingredients you didn't need to alter the pH.  Then in my notes I have to sub Varisoft for the Centronium Chloride at 2% (if this helps at all).  I recently made Susan's recipe for dry hair that contained 10% butter and I thought it really took away from the suds so there's that.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 10, 2019)

SoaperForLife said:


> In SCM's question section for shampoo bars someone named Sarah had asked about using Varisoft EQ 65 and Susan had responded that if you use SCI or other pH balanced ingredients you didn't need to alter the pH.  Then in my notes I have to sub Varisoft for the Centronium Chloride at 2% (if this helps at all).  I recently made Susan's recipe for dry hair that contained 10% butter and I thought it really took away from the suds so there's that.



Thanks yes I saw that. My whole issue was trying not to have to sub anything out and keep the ph between 5-7 because I am definitely not chemistry oriented lol. The ladies convinced me that adding a butter to the shampoo would not be a wise idea. 
Also, I just saw a recipe that Marie from Humblebee just posted and from the looks of that one and my recipe I think I did pretty good for a newbie. Give myself a pat on the back lol. I just put my product order in but sad to say it looks like shipments are a month behind. Might not be able to make anything before Xmas.


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## Gaisy59 (Jan 4, 2020)

Wooo hoooo i made my first shampoo bar! However i must have done something wrong...i melted my SCI and amphosol together and i used a double boiler to melt my slsa, btms, cetearyl alcohol and silk amino acid together. The ingredients in the double boiler melted fine but then became kind of chunky. I had to try and break up little hard bits apart once i joined it all together.

What did i do wrong?


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 4, 2020)

Pour as soon as you can because it hardens as soon as you remove it from heat.


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## Gaisy59 (Jan 4, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> Pour as soon as you can because it hardens as soon as you remove it from heat.[/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks for replying KM. Dang! Is that why its grainy feeling too? Also, i dont have a lot of liquid in the recipe but it isnt hard. Why would that be?


----------



## SideDoorSoaps (Jan 5, 2020)

I recently made this recipe from Soap and more with a couple adjustments to the ingredients I had on hand: mango instead of Kokum and wholesale supplies plus Soft and silky ewax (Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Ceteareth-20). It’s so lovely!

I have thick, wavy hair. I do use a conditioner bar also from Naturally Curly This has been for the last two weeks. I used sunflower oil and Panthenol.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

SideDoorSoaps said:


> I recently made this recipe from Soap and more with a couple adjustments to the ingredients I had on hand: mango instead of Kokum and wholesale supplies plus Soft and silky ewax (Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Ceteareth-20). It’s so lovely!
> 
> I have thick, wavy hair. I do use a conditioner bar also from Naturally Curly This has been for the last two weeks. I used sunflower oil and Panthenol.View attachment 43258



Thank you! I will read this over and then have questions if you dont mind.


----------



## atiz (Jan 5, 2020)

@Gaisy59: Why did you melt the SLSa with the BTMS instead of the surfactants? (Just curious.)

But otherwise KM is right, it will melt to a thick paste consistency. I usually melt mine for 30 minutes or so, and then mix, and then while mixing let it cool somewhat to the temp. where I can add the preservative (which is heat sensitive). By the time I can add the preservative it's on the borderline of not being pourable at all, so I just need to somehow get it into the mold.

You should let it harden for a few days before using it. It will get a bit harder, although it may never be as hard as a rock (depending on the recipe).

Some people say that SCI and BTMS don't work very well together, although in my experience it's fine to combine them.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi atiz thanks for dropping in with help. So the question is why did i melt SLSa that way and the answer is i do not know lol. I am using Swift Craft Monkeys i structions and she has “phases”. First phase, second phase then cool down phase. So i should have melted my SCI, and slsa and cetearyl together with my amphosol and then added the powders?

And i can tell you that nothing took 30 minutes. Everything melted really fast!  I felt like one of those chefs trying to juggle ten pans at the same time


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

Oh oh after doing some reading i might have ordered cetearyl alcohol instead of cetyl alcohol. Would that make my bar too soft?


----------



## atiz (Jan 5, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> Oh oh after doing some reading i might have ordered cetearyl alcohol instead of cetyl alcohol. Would that make my bar too soft?


As far as I know, cetearyl alchol = cetyl alcohol + stearic acid. So it shouldn't make your bar soft. 
I guess it doesn't matter how you melt them (you can even make it without melting!), as far as everything gets well combined at the end.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

atiz said:


> As far as I know, cetearyl alchol = cetyl alcohol + stearic acid. So it shouldn't make your bar soft.
> I guess it doesn't matter how you melt them (you can even make it without melting!), as far as everything gets well combined at the end.



Then why oh why is my bar soft?

I think i prefer to melt as i dont have a press and it makes me feel like everything is well blended. I will have to slow the melting process down and place all the meltables together then add the powders at the end maybe that will be better.


----------



## Dahila (Jan 5, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> Oh oh after doing some reading i might have ordered cetearyl alcohol instead of cetyl alcohol. Would that make my bar too soft?


Gaisy I just ordered Cetearyl alcohol for syndets ,  it is much better in shampoo bar than Cetyl


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## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

Dahila said:


> Gaisy I just ordered Cetearyl alcohol for syndets ,  it is much better in shampoo bar than Cetyl



Ok so i can keep that then. But why would it be a soft bar, and i washed my hair with the bar and it looks greasy? Stringy?


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 5, 2020)

what amount of liquid surfactants/other ingredients did you add?
My recipe has about 16% liquid - the rest is melted/powders/butters.


----------



## Dana L (Jan 5, 2020)

Obsidian said:


> Here is a recipe I use on my hair. Most of the time I don't have to use a conditioner, at least I didn't until I bleached my hair a few months back.
> Even with it being bleached and damaged, this bar isn't as harsh as commercial shampoo.
> 
> They can get a little soft after a couple weeks if not able to dry really well between uses but it didn't become squishy.
> ...


You are so kind to share this. Thank you


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> what amount of liquid surfactants/other ingredients did you add?
> My recipe has about 16% liquid - the rest is melted/powders/butters.



40 gms sci
20 gms amphosol
29 gms slsa
3 gms slsa
5 gms cetearyl 
1.5 gms silk amino
1 gm panthenol
.5 gms germail plus


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 5, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> 40 gms sci
> 20 gms amphosol
> 29 gms slsa
> 3 gms slsa
> ...


Is amposol a liquid?


----------



## atiz (Jan 5, 2020)

Did you let your bar sit for a few days? I found that it really matters in terms of hardness. I would let it sit at least 3 days before first use.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> Is amposol a liquid?



Yes and i see that you probably want it down to 16 gms? Then what do you suggest i increase?


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

atiz said:


> Did you let your bar sit for a few days? I found that it really matters in terms of hardness. I would let it sit at least 3 days before first use.



yes i will but i was anxious to try it


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 5, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> Yes and i see that you probably want it down to 16 gms? Then what do you suggest i increase?


What is it? What’s your total liquid percentage? Isn’t panthenol a liquid?


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 5, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> What is it? What’s your total liquid percentage? Isn’t panthenol a liquid?



Arrgghhh no my panthenol is a powder BUT! my germail plus is a liquid  ‍ So thats 20.5 gms if liquid out of a total 100gms. OK back to drawing board. I would love to do your recipe but it didnt work well for your friend with curls. I have to figure this out because i so badly want to make my own shampoo


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 5, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> Arrgghhh no my panthenol is a powder BUT! my germail plus is a liquid  ‍ So thats 20.5 gms if liquid out of a total 100gms. OK back to drawing board. I would love to do your recipe but it didnt work well for your friend with curls. I have to figure this out because i so badly want to make my own shampoo


That was my first one - she hasn’t tried the second recipe which has a few tweaks. Try it: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/syndet-shampoo-bar-trials.77482/


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## Dahila (Jan 6, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> Ok so i can keep that then. But why would it be a soft bar, and i washed my hair with the bar and it looks greasy? Stringy?


maybe you added oils?  or too much of CA?


----------



## Dahila (Jan 6, 2020)

It does not look that you have to much liquid but I try not to go over 11% of liquid ,  Is your silk liquid or powder?


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## Gaisy59 (Jan 6, 2020)

Hi Dahila my silk is powder but my total liquid is too much. I did something wrong because after a couple of days the bar is still sticky/tacky. I have to try again with some tweaks. Also its almost like there is too much chemical or something because after i washed my hair it was like i had a chemical taste in my mouth.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 7, 2020)

I read somewhere that shea butter is better for dry hair than cocoa butter - it's more moisturising.  If you have frizzy hair I would be careful about using too many humectants, because they will exacerbate the problem.  I went with varisoft EQ65 in my recipe as an alternative to stearic acid and cetearyl alcohol.  I'm sure it contributes to hardness because it sure takes a high heat and long time to melt!  My original recipe had 13% liquids (but 15% varisoft), then I changed it and it now has 16% ( with 10% varisoft), and now my foaming apple has arrived from America (!) I will try it with 19% liquids (and 12% varisoft).  We'll see how the hardness holds out.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 7, 2020)

The bar that my head really likes is from Unwrapped Life but holy smokes it has SLS in it and a ton of oils. I have no idea how it stays hard and how it can be healthy. SLS is bad for body and environment. Im wondering if they are not posting all their ingredients.

Anyway KiwiMoose my fingers are crossed that your recipe will be the one. I will try mine again since i have the ingredients and see what happens.


----------



## atiz (Jan 7, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> The bar that my head really likes is from Unwrapped Life but holy smokes it has SLS in it and a ton of oils. I have no idea how it stays hard and how it can be healthy. SLS is bad for body and environment. Im wondering if they are not posting all their ingredients.
> 
> Anyway KiwiMoose my fingers are crossed that your recipe will be the one. I will try mine again since i have the ingredients and see what happens.


Why don't you try a few different recipes? Humblebee&Me has some nice ones too, the ones I have tried worked very well for me. (They usually use Coco betaine though and KM did not want that.)


----------



## Dahila (Jan 7, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> Hi Dahila my silk is powder but my total liquid is too much. I did something wrong because after a couple of days the bar is still sticky/tacky. I have to try again with some tweaks. Also its almost like there is too much chemical or something because after i washed my hair it was like i had a chemical taste in my mouth.


this is why I make tine batches first when I get what I want from shampoo adequate ph ,  foaming, moisturizing and gentleness, skin not itchy, shiny hair, then I go and do bigger batches,  It seems that you have silk peptides they are good, very small molecule and they do penetrate  the hair, With all due respect none of Susan shampoo bar is working for me, It is always soft.  I get her books to support her,  cause she deserve it, but shampoo bars hm not as good as the other stuff.  you need to find the way to mix the surfacants so you do not have wet thing .  I press mine almost dry


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 7, 2020)

atiz said:


> Why don't you try a few different recipes? Humblebee&Me has some nice ones too, the ones I have tried worked very well for me. (They usually use Coco betaine though and KM did not want that.)



yes I am a Humblebee member as well as a Swift Craft Monkey member (which is where i formulated my recipe from), but i do like KM’s thought process as i do want less chemically ingredients especially after this trial on my head. Took a whole day to get rid of that taste in my mouth.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 7, 2020)

Dahila said:


> this is why I make tine batches first when I get what I want from shampoo adequate ph ,  foaming, moisturizing and gentleness, skin not itchy, shiny hair, then I go and do bigger batches,  It seems that you have silk peptides they are good, very small molecule and they do penetrate  the hair, With all due respect none of Susan shampoo bar is working for me, It is always soft.  I get her books to support her,  cause she deserve it, but shampoo bars hm not as good as the other stuff.  you need to find the way to mix the surfacants so you do not have wet thing .  I press mine almost dry



I agree Dahila i too am supporting SCM and Humblebee because they are an inspiration, but yes i am not impressed with the basic recipe from SCM. Having said that it was my very first try at this so am kinda proud of myself. It actually worked but just not great on my head lol.


----------



## Deborah Long (Jan 7, 2020)

@Gaisy59 - So, I'm trying the 'Curly Girl' method on my hair and make my own syndet shampoo bars.  They are hard as a rock, last me for a couple of months (I don't shampoo daily any more) and are gentle on my hair.  The curly girl method is a way to get your curls/waves under control and if you're interested in trying it - just google it and youtube it - that's what I did!  lol
I use not so much butter in my recipe, but rather come Cocamidopopyl Betaine (which I call coco B because that's quite a mouthful) but it's a very gentle surfactant and makes a ton of lather!
Good luck in taming your curls!


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 7, 2020)

I am subscribed to SCM and I do get a lot of info from her site - but I just use that info to help formulate by own recipe.  My recipe is kind of a hotch-potch of lots of different recipes that I've read, all rolled into one.  
This morning in the shower I used my latest recipe which is good, then I used my first recipe (which has now broken in half as it's gotten smaller - my DH has been using that one), and then, just to compare I used the Lush one.  Yes, I do have THREE shampoo bars in my shower - what of it? 
The Lush one is far superior in terms of lathering and gentleness BUT as we know it is almost entirely SLS used as the surfactant.  https://www.lushusa.com/stories/article_dont-stress-sls.html.  I love the Lush one - I would just make that if I could.  The problem is that I'm trying to replicate the quality of a bar by using completely different ingredients, so it will probably never happen.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 7, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> I am subscribed to SCM and I do get a lot of info from her site - but I just use that info to help formulate by own recipe.  My recipe is kind of a hotch-potch of lots of different recipes that I've read, all rolled into one.
> This morning in the shower I used my latest recipe which is good, then I used my first recipe (which has now broken in half as it's gotten smaller - my DH has been using that one), and then, just to compare I used the Lush one.  Yes, I do have THREE shampoo bars in my shower - what of it?
> The Lush one is far superior in terms of lathering and gentleness BUT as we know it is almost entirely SLS used as the surfactant.  https://www.lushusa.com/stories/article_dont-stress-sls.html.  I love the Lush one - I would just make that if I could.  The problem is that I'm trying to replicate the quality of a bar by using completely different ingredients, so it will probably never happen.



Yes! My unwrapped life bar basically has sls and its bad but it feels so good lol. And i dont use Lush products because they are not the healthiest.


----------



## atiz (Jan 7, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> yes I am a Humblebee member as well as a Swift Craft Monkey member (which is where i formulated my recipe from), but i do like KM’s thought process as i do want less chemically ingredients especially after this trial on my head. Took a whole day to get rid of that taste in my mouth.


I may be wrong but if I remember right @KiwiMoose doesn't use C-Betaine because it is an irritant. If you are making shampoo just for yourself, and are not allergic to it, it would make formulating much easier. It is a gentle surfactant, and not "more chemical" than SLSa or Amphosol. (I'm not quite sure what "chemical" means anyway....)
I like formulating my own things too, but for formulating a good shampoo it is quite essential to have some accurate pH testing device, which I don't at the moment. So I don't try to do it from scratch because in terms of pH it is very difficult if not impossible to calculate where you end up, without actually testing it.

FWIW, as mentioned in another thread, I recently got a commercial syndet shampoo bar and quite like it. It has plenty of lather. They don't use SLS (nor coco betaine as far as I can tell), so it is certainly possible.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 7, 2020)

atiz said:


> I may be wrong but if I remember right @KiwiMoose doesn't use C-Betaine because it is an irritant. If you are making shampoo just for yourself, and are not allergic to it, it would make formulating much easier. It is a gentle surfactant, and not "more chemical" than SLSa or Amphosol. (I'm not quite sure what "chemical" means anyway....)
> I like formulating my own things too, but for formulating a good shampoo it is quite essential to have some accurate pH testing device, which I don't at the moment. So I don't try to do it from scratch because in terms of pH it is very difficult if not impossible to calculate where you end up, without actually testing it.
> 
> FWIW, as mentioned in another thread, I recently got a commercial syndet shampoo bar and quite like it. It has plenty of lather. They don't use SLS (nor coco betaine as far as I can tell), so it is certainly possible.



LOL I have been following that thread and OMG 26.00 I find a little crazy. But having said that I will never say never cause then I might have to eat my words.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 7, 2020)

I'm about to make my new recipe today with the foaming apple that arrived from the USA!  Exciting stuff. https://lotioncrafter.com/products/...z2mpFy6W1zV3O2uDvrwB3bJxsuwiJ8_nRisfQG6B_oSrw


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## Dahila (Jan 7, 2020)

Altz Amphosol is Cocamidopropyl Betaine,  Most people call it cocobetaine, however it is not right name. Coco betaine is a bit different


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 8, 2020)

New 'poo bars!


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## atiz (Jan 8, 2020)

Dahila said:


> Altz Amphosol is Cocamidopropyl Betaine,  Most people call it cocobetaine, however it is not right name. Coco betaine is a bit different


Oh that's right, I forgot (about Amphosol). Yeah, I do know that cocamidopropyl betaine is not quite the same as coco betaine, but people don't seem to use the full name usually (even my bottle says coco betaine and only in the INCI the full name). SO obviously -- disregard my previous about using coco betaine.
KM, those look quite nice! did you use a colorant for them? That foaming apple surfactant looks promising, let us know how it works!


----------



## Kcryss (Jan 8, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> New 'poo bars!  View attachment 43298



Very nice!!


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## Gaisy59 (Jan 8, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> New 'poo bars!  View attachment 43298



AMAZING!



atiz said:


> I may be wrong but if I remember right @KiwiMoose doesn't use C-Betaine because it is an irritant. If you are making shampoo just for yourself, and are not allergic to it, it would make formulating much easier. It is a gentle surfactant, and not "more chemical" than SLSa or Amphosol. (I'm not quite sure what "chemical" means anyway....)
> I like formulating my own things too, but for formulating a good shampoo it is quite essential to have some accurate pH testing device, which I don't at the moment. So I don't try to do it from scratch because in terms of pH it is very difficult if not impossible to calculate where you end up, without actually testing it.
> 
> FWIW, as mentioned in another thread, I recently got a commercial syndet shampoo bar and quite like it. It has plenty of lather. They don't use SLS (nor coco betaine as far as I can tell), so it is certainly possible.



Hi atiz by more chemically i meant that i had a metal taste in my mouth after using my first bar. Not good and i must have done something really wrong to get that.


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## JasmineTea (Jan 8, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> New 'poo bars!  View attachment 43298


I switch from using at least three foamings: apple, silk, oats. I've liked them all. 

Your syndet bar is very pretty!

I'm not sure if this is the best place to insert this link, but I think it could be helpful for formulating shampoo/syndet recipes. It tells about different hair types and proteins to use for them:  Protein 101 - Lots of Basic Information About Using Protein in Hair Products


----------



## Kcryss (Jan 8, 2020)

JasmineTea said:


> I'm not sure if this is the best place to insert this link, but I think it could be helpful for formulating shampoo/syndet recipes. It tells about different hair types and proteins to use for them:  http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.c....html?mc_cid=6f392dfd02&mc_eid=5e5409dcbe&m=1



Nice page. That explains why rye flour as shampoo works so well! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Carolyne Thrasher (Jan 8, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> New 'poo bars!  View attachment 43298


Wow! those look amazing. Let me know how you like your foaming apple. I got mine too and am waiting for a trial bar to harden up before I use it. I tried 20% foaming apple and it's soft after 24 hours so I guess I'll have to go back to 10% liquid surfactant and add some slsa. I used part SCI Powder and part sci noodles. The noodles are really a lot less expensive than the powder and I'm trying to bring the cost per bar down a bit.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 8, 2020)

Carolyne Thrasher said:


> Wow! those look amazing. Let me know how you like your foaming apple. I got mine too and am waiting for a trial bar to harden up before I use it. I tried 20% foaming apple and it's soft after 24 hours so I guess I'll have to go back to 10% liquid surfactant and add some slsa. I used part SCI Powder and part sci noodles. The noodles are really a lot less expensive than the powder and I'm trying to bring the cost per bar down a bit.


I'm surprised at how hard mine are, but bear in mind that the Varisoft and cetyl alcohol I use are very hard, waxy substances ( a total of 18% of these) which set up again after melting.  I used the foaming apple at 10%.
My 'noodles' are short and fat - not like those nice long ones I see you all using over there - so I'm cautious about using too many.  I add about  1/4 of my SCI as noodles and the rest as powder.


----------



## Carolyne Thrasher (Jan 9, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> I'm surprised at how hard mine are, but bear in mind that the Varisoft and cetyl alcohol I use are very hard, waxy substances ( a total of 18% of these) which set up again after melting.  I used the foaming apple at 10%.
> My 'noodles' are short and fat - not like those nice long ones I see you all using over there - so I'm cautious about using too many.  I add about  1/4 of my SCI as noodles and the rest as powder.


I should get some varisoft. The one I see for sale is varisoft eq 65. Is that what you are using. I’m only using 5% cetyl alcohol and  3% btms and 3% kokum. When I used only sci powder melted down I ended up with a pretty hard bar but only using 10% of a liquid surfactant.


----------



## justjacqui (Jan 9, 2020)

@Gaisy59 In your ingredient list you listed SLSA twice. Was the second entry for 3 grams supposed to be sodium lactate? I read somewhere (sorry can't remember where) that sodium lactate made shampoo bars soft even though it is a bar hardener for soaps. Just a thought.



Gaisy59 said:


> 40 gms sci
> 20 gms amphosol
> 29 gms slsa
> 3 gms slsa
> ...


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 10, 2020)

Carolyne Thrasher said:


> I should get some varisoft. The one I see for sale is varisoft eq 65. Is that what you are using. I’m only using 5% cetyl alcohol and  3% btms and 3% kokum. When I used only sci powder melted down I ended up with a pretty hard bar but only using 10% of a liquid surfactant.


Yes that's the one.  I use it instead of BTMS.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 13, 2020)

justjacqui said:


> @Gaisy59 In your ingredient list you listed SLSA twice. Was the second entry for 3 grams supposed to be sodium lactate? I read somewhere (sorry can't remember where) that sodium lactate made shampoo bars soft even though it is a bar hardener for soaps. Just a thought.



My bad...I didn't notice. It should be BTMS-50 and I changed the cetyl alcohol to cetearyl alcohol.  No sodium lactate at all.  However, that recipe did not do well for me at all.  Bad reaction.


----------



## Deborah Long (Jan 14, 2020)

@KiwiMoose - I often use foaming silk in my shampoo bars instead of Cocamidopropyl Betaine.  My sister is allergic to that stuff!  (However, I am not!)  It seems to work wonderfully well for me!  Does it smell 'appley'?  lol


----------



## cmzaha (Jan 14, 2020)

Carolyne Thrasher said:


> Wow! those look amazing. Let me know how you like your foaming apple. I got mine too and am waiting for a trial bar to harden up before I use it. I tried 20% foaming apple and it's soft after 24 hours so I guess I'll have to go back to 10% liquid surfactant and add some slsa. I used part SCI Powder and part sci noodles. The noodles are really a lot less expensive than the powder and I'm trying to bring the cost per bar down a bit.


I actually use 24% liquid surfactant in my syndet bars and they do not get mushy, but only 1% silk protein.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Jan 14, 2020)

@Gaisy59 - I'm going to write some more on my other thread about the new bars.  I'm getting confused between your thread and mine, so I'd better stick to mine 'Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials'.


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jan 14, 2020)

KiwiMoose said:


> @Gaisy59 - I'm going to write some more on my other thread about the new bars.  I'm getting confused between your thread and mine, so I'd better stick to mine 'Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials'.



Lol i totally get it. I too have been watching both threads. I will keep up with your thread.


----------



## Mellicious (Jun 13, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> Sighhhh, having read the forums everyone seems to have liked Susan. So back to square one then. Maybe I will try Humblebee instead, but from what I can see she hasn’t developed anything for dry hair.


I have a basic recipe that makes really hard bars. I have really curly hair too and it works for me. Maybe you can tweak it because the ingredients are a little different. Please note that my SCI and SLSa are both in powder form - so id you’re using noodles you 

Phase A (Surfactant phase)
40% SCI
30% SLSa (not SLS)
1% Agar Agar 

Phase B (Melting phase)
4% BTMS or other conditioning emulsifier
5% Cetyl Alcohol
4.5% Argan oil

Phase C (co-surfactant phase)
7% Cocamidopropyl Betaine (you could use a different liquid surfactant here but would have to make sure that you adjust the pH if needed)

Phase D (Cool down phase)
4.5% distilled water ( I use rose water)
0.5% Glycerin
1% Panthenol 
1% Essential oil or fragrance oil
1% Hydrolyzed Protein of choice ( I use wheat protein)
0.5 % Preservative (Broad spectrum)

Phase E:  pH adjusting if needed
* the recipe as it is doesn’t need adjusting because the pH is 5 but always double check, especially if you tweak 
It makes a rather sticky dough - so I use cling wrap in my mooncake press so they don’t stick. They end up hard and really great!


----------



## Gaisy59 (Jun 13, 2020)

Thanks Mellicious i will give this a try!


----------



## nframe (Jun 15, 2020)

Mellicious, why do you use agar agar?


----------



## cmzaha (Jun 15, 2020)

Not Mellicious, but the agar agar can be used as a conditioning agent and binding the ingredients together. This recipe is very similiar to this one Argan Rose Pressed Shampoo Bars - Humblebee & Me


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## nframe (Jun 15, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> Not Mellicious, but the agar agar can be used as a conditioning agent and binding the ingredients together. This recipe is very similiar to this one Argan Rose Pressed Shampoo Bars - Humblebee & Me


Thank you.


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## Gaisy59 (Jun 15, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> Not Mellicious, but the agar agar can be used as a conditioning agent and binding the ingredients together. This recipe is very similiar to this one Argan Rose Pressed Shampoo Bars - Humblebee & Me



Thanks cmzaha for the reply and the link. I decided to try a bar with the ingredients I already have and then will give other recipes a try. I can keep ordering product til the cows come home with all the different ingredients


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## Claudette Carignan (Jun 16, 2020)

cmzaha said:


> Not Mellicious, but the agar agar can be used as a conditioning agent and binding the ingredients together. This recipe is very similiar to this one Argan Rose Pressed Shampoo Bars - Humblebee & Me


Thank you cmzaha for sharing this link. I’ve been wanting to make shampoo bars but couldn’t find a recipe anywhere that explained it clearly like in this link. Now to be able to find all the ingredients!!


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## Mellicious (Jun 17, 2020)

nframe said:


> Mellicious, why do you use agar agar?


Cmzah answered the question


----------



## gsc (Nov 15, 2020)

Dahila said:


> I do not believe in strips , I use ph meter and yes I test each batch,   However I had a plastic strips from Formulator Store (I think that's the name) and they are incredible accurate when ph is 4.6 they show 5 , which surprise me every time I use them,  I use them to check how low is ph then the meter.
> Susan explains so well how to adjust it and how to measure,  You could use strips just for general information
> link to good strips,  They costed so much cause I am in Canada, but they are the best I have  .  Link: https://www.formulatorsampleshop.com/pH-Fix-Indicator-Strips-10-Pack-p/fssd22020.htm
> you need to make solution 5grams  of syndet bar 45 of distilled water then measure it,  I use ph meter 5 g of syndet 95 g of DW. easy peasy


Dahila, which pH meter do you have and where did you purchase it from?


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 15, 2020)

Dahila would it be better to use citric acid to lower pH or lactic acid? I used lactic acid last time but you use citric.


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## Carolyne Thrasher (Nov 26, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> View attachment 42365
> Hi I am trying to formulate a syndet shampoo bar for my curly dry hair. I bought Swift Craft Monkeys shampoo bar book and have tried to formulate something for me and would like input before I purchase all the ingredients. Please jump in with suggestions thanks to all in advance.



I use Bespoke Formula's book for my syndet bars. I purchased both hers and Swiftcraft Monkey. I do not have dry curly hair but I would back the slsa down and increase the sci. SLSA can be irritating at too high a percentage. 10% kokum would definitely be moisturizing. You might consider adding some cetyl alcohol and bumping up the btms 50 to 5%. I don't use sodium lactate in my bars. Regardless make a 100 g batch (one bar's worth) at a time until you have it dialed in so you don't spend a fortune on mistakes. The only way to learn shampoo bars is through mistakes. It's a different animal than soap. You may have to try 4 or 5 recipes until you get one you like. I promise it's worth it in the end though. Make the recipe above (just 100 grams) and then make one of HumbleBee's. Between those two you will learn a lot. And you can't learn it until you do it. It will seem overwhelming at first. Just keep on and expect to make mistakes and waste material.


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## Mellicious (Nov 26, 2020)

I have curly hair and formulated a bar that seems to do my hair pretty good. I use a total of 70% dry surfactants (SLSa and SCI), don’t need to add any sodium lactate because the solid content is high enough. Kokum butter sounds good, though I use mango butter or Shea butter. I also add hydrolyzed wheat protein and panthenol. What made the difference for me (detangling) was coconut silicone (Coco Caprylate). Well it’s not a silicone but it has the same benefits


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## AliOop (Nov 26, 2020)

Mellicious said:


> I have curly hair and formulated a bar that seems to do my hair pretty good. I use a total of 70% dry surfactants (SLSa and SCI), don’t need to add any sodium lactate because the solid content is high enough. Kokum butter sounds good, though I use mango butter or Shea butter. I also add hydrolyzed wheat protein and panthenol. What made the difference for me (detangling) was coconut silicone (Coco Caprylate). Well it’s not a silicone but it has the same benefits


Can you tell me a bit about how you incorporated the coco caprylate into your bars? Making Cosmetics has a product called BioJelly that has CC as the first ingredient. Since I have a bunch of other stuff from their shop in my cart, I'm toying with whether to add this to my shampoo bar, as well. I have super thick, curly, dry, low-porosity hair. It was long till about two weeks ago - it's pretty short now, but still a ton of hair.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 26, 2020)

Keeping an eye on these conversations. I plan on making some bars this weekend and will check pH and report back.


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## AliOop (Nov 26, 2020)

Gaisy59 said:


> Keeping an eye on these conversations. I plan on making some bars this weekend and will check pH and report back.


Thanks, I am planning to make mine this weekend, as well. I keep going back and forth between something very basic, and a recipe with all the things. Sigh.

I do know for sure that I want a melted version so the ingredients are thoroughly mixed. Having separate "noodles" in the final product would mean you could not be sure how much of each ingredient was being activated during the shampooing process.


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## Gaisy59 (Nov 26, 2020)

Here is something that my hairdresser told me that made me rethink my processes/formulas...she said that for curls the shampoo is the cleaner but it’s the conditioner that ends up making the difference for our curls. Now she is a curl specialist stylist so pretty much knows what she is doing. So once i figure out a syndet bar that isn’t harsh then i am going to focus on a great conditioner.


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## Mellicious (Nov 26, 2020)

AliOop said:


> Can you tell me a bit about how you incorporated the coco caprylate into your bars? Making Cosmetics has a product called BioJelly that has CC as the first ingredient. Since I have a bunch of other stuff from their shop in my cart, I'm toying with whether to add this to my shampoo bar, as well. I have super thick, curly, dry, low-porosity hair. It was long till about two weeks ago - it's pretty short now, but still a ton of hair.


 I don’t have me recipe at hand but if I remember correctly, I added it to the cool down phase where preservatives are added (while still mixing it in my kitchen aid. I’d have to have a look but I think I used 2% CC


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## AliOop (Nov 26, 2020)

@Mellicious that is very helpful - thank you! I realized that I can't make my bars just yet, as I am waiting on my dust mask to arrive. My lungs are pretty sensitive so I didn't want to chance it with a paper mask.


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## daisychain (Jun 7, 2022)

cmzaha said:


> My experience with it is it gets very mushy after one use. The basics of it are okay but it takes some experimentation to get it to hold up.





Dahila said:


> I tried like 4 from her books and all soft to the very end you could squeeze it like a ball .



I hope it's OK to reply to some older messages like this. I just saw these posts and was curious about your experiences, because I've found the same with these shampoo bar formulas.

I was wondering if you put yours in the freezer? Because I've seen people claim this is a make-or-break factor for these particular formulas. Which is odd to me, as I haven't found it crucial to freeze syndet bars and most professional formulas don't suggest to do so. But maybe some ingredient in hers needs it.

I'm not really interested in perfecting these formulas, I'm happy with my own - but just curious what might make these not work for some of us, when others rave about them


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## Dahila (Jun 7, 2022)

Nope it is not about oils or butters.  Right now I completely changed my formula, it has nothing to do with Susan"s formulas,  My syndet bars are hard like a rock and very good


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## AliOop (Jun 7, 2022)

I now use the Hot Pour Shampoo Bar recipe from DIY Bath and Body on Etsy. Melt everything together in the microwave, stir well, add preservative when cooled a bit, then put into molds. Easy, fast, and nice hard bars. Most importantly, they get rave reviews from family who have tried them. Hair is soft and clean, scalp isn’t itchy or irritated, and there is zero product build-up or color stripping. 

She does recommend popping them into the freezer to harden, help with mold release, and dehydrate them a bit.  I’ve tried both ways, and the frozen and non-frozen bars are identical after a few days. But the freezer really does give them a head start and dry them out a bit faster.


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## daisychain (Jun 7, 2022)

Thanks for your replies 



AliOop said:


> She does recommend popping them into the freezer to harden, help with mold release, and dehydrate them a bit. I’ve tried both ways, and the frozen and non-frozen bars are identical after a few days. But the freezer really does give them a head start and dry them out a bit faster.



Yes, I've found the same - gives them a "head start", as you put it, but isn't crucial. Also helps with my impatience to see the end result . But if a formula depends on freezing the bars, I think it's too finicky. I'm also skeptical it's the reason some recipes don't work for people, hence why I was curious if others had used the freezer or not with these recipes.

AliOop, how do you find the lather with the hot pour recipe? I tried a hot pour formula which had a large amount of stearic acid, and found it made the lather non-existent.


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## Misschief (Jun 7, 2022)

daisychain said:


> Thanks for your replies
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I use the Hot Pour recipe as well and LOVE it. It has plenty of lather and my hair feels amazing using it; I don't even need conditioner when I use it.


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 7, 2022)

I guess my recipe is classed as what you would call a 'hot pour'.  It's set and ready for unmolding within an hour or two. No fridge/freezer required.  Lather is fantastic!


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## AliOop (Jun 7, 2022)

Misschief said:


> I use the Hot Pour recipe as well and LOVE it. It has plenty of lather and my hair feels amazing using it; I don't even need conditioner when I use it.


I agree, plenty of lather in those bars. With my super dry hair, I do need conditioner (and I use her solid conditioner bar recipe for that). My daughter's hair is slightly oily; she only has to condition the ends when she uses these bars. We both love how soft and manageable our hair feels after washing with these. Her husband recently joined the bandwagon, so I brought them 10 shampoo bars when we visited them recently.

My daughter's hairdresser asked her what products she was using, because her hair was so healthy. When my daughter replied that it was her mom's "homemade" shampoo bar, the hairdresser asked to see the ingredients.  I sent them the link to the recipe listing on Etsy, which discloses all required ingredients. The response was, "Yup, that's what's in real shampoo." I think she was afraid we were using lye soap on our hair.


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## JasmineTea (Jun 8, 2022)

AliOop said:


> I now use the Hot Pour Shampoo Bar recipe from DIY Bath and Body on Etsy. Melt everything together in the microwave, stir well, add preservative when cooled a bit, then put into molds. Easy, fast, and nice hard bars. Most importantly, they get rave reviews from family who have tried them. Hair is soft and clean, scalp isn’t itchy or irritated, and there is zero product build-up or color stripping.
> 
> She does recommend popping them into the freezer to harden, help with mold release, and dehydrate them a bit.  I’ve tried both ways, and the frozen and non-frozen bars are identical after a few days. But the freezer really does give them a head start and dry them out a bit faster.


@AliOop Which of the Hot Pour formulas do you use? I just bought that set of recipes.


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## AliOop (Jun 8, 2022)

Hi @JasmineTea  This is the recipe: Hot Pour Shampoo Bars


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## JasmineTea (Jun 8, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Hi @JasmineTea  This is the recipe: Hot Pour Shampoo Bars


Thank you, @AliOop ! Within that publication there are several different recipes. I was wondering which of the recipes you make and like so well.


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## AliOop (Jun 8, 2022)

Ah, gotcha. I've only used the first recipe with hydrolized silk as my additive, and subbing in FCO instead of babassu. 

I intend to try the baobab recipe next, since it is recommended for dry, curly hair. I recently acquired some baobab powder and oil, but I don't have bamboo extract or baobab extract... so I'll probably use another extract that I have on hand


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## JasmineTea (Jun 8, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Ah, gotcha. I've only used the first recipe with hydrolized silk as my additive, and subbing in FCO instead of babassu.
> 
> I intend to try the baobab recipe next, since it is recommended for dry, curly hair. I recently acquired some baobab powder and oil, but I don't have bamboo extract or baobab extract... so I'll probably use another extract that I have on hand


Alrighty, thank you. I look forward to trying it. I'm happy with my current recipe, but streamlining and making the process easier are really good things. 

I admired your shampoo bars in another thread and wondered how you were able to use such pretty molds. Now I know =).


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## AliOop (Jun 8, 2022)

Yes, and I microwave everything, too. No double-boiler and so much faster!


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## glendam (Jun 11, 2022)

AliOop said:


> Hi @JasmineTea  This is the recipe: Hot Pour Shampoo Bars


Have you by chance taken the ph of the bars?  Or does it say on the recipe?  Today I as watching a video and got curious about it, the youtuber was saying how curly hair needs a really low ph (I think 3.5 to 4 ish if I remember correctly) to avoid opening the cuticle so it made me curious for my next diy shampoo bar


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## AliOop (Jun 11, 2022)

@glendam mine are usually between 5 and 6, depending on what additives I use. 

My curly hair is dry but super resilient, and not as easily affected by high pH at all. I never even had problems using lye soap on it, although I don't recommend that.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jun 12, 2022)

Can anyone give me feedback on DIY's two downloads for Shampoo Bars -- her original Solid Shampoo Bars vs Hot Pour Shampoo Bars?  I'm leaning toward getting the original only because I've already got the ingredients for it, but if the Hot Pour is substantially better I'd like to know.

And have any of you tried her Conditioner Bars?

DIY Solid Shampoo Bars  SCI Version  2 Recipes | Etsy
DIY Shampoo Bars  Hot Pour | Etsy


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## AliOop (Jun 12, 2022)

I have all three of those: the conditioner bar, the solid shampoo bar recipe, and the hot pour recipe. I love the conditioner bars! My dry hair is made a lot more manageable, without suffering from the allergies and skin reactions I tend to get from store-bought conditioners.

Both shampoo bars leave my scalp clean, and my hair relatively soft and manageable. I say "relatively" because my hair is very dry, curly, and thick.  Even though the hot pour recipe required me to buy another ingredient (decyl glucoside), I prefer it over the other recipe for two reasons:

1. I prefer poured bars over pressed bars. The best comparison is CP bars v. not-fluid HP bars. One is smooth and homogenous, while the other is "rustic."  The rustic ones tend to lose bits here and there that break off due to the uneven texture, which I find wasteful.

2. Unless she has reformulated, the solid shampoo bar recipe is very high in SCI - over the recommended max usage. While it never bothered my scalp or hair, a lot of folks were concerned about this. Since I do share my shampoo bars with family, I felt it best to stick with the hot pour recipe that stays within recommended usage rates.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jun 12, 2022)

@AliOop Thank you so much for your detailed feedback.  I also have very dry curly hair so your notes are especially helpful.

I wonder how her original recipe would be if I substituted SLSa for the "overage" of her SCI?  I've ground my SCI into a powder, so it's pretty workable.

 I've been finding most solid conditioners not up to managing my strong-willed mind-of-its-own hair.  Sounds like this one may be a winner.  It does have a few ingredients I'd have to track down because I don't have them and can't get them locally (Olivem 300, Dimethicone).

I had no idea what a windy rabbit hole I was heading down when I started down this path!


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## AliOop (Jun 12, 2022)

@JoyfulSudz the conditioner bar recipe that I have from DIY Bath & Body doesn't call for Olivem 300. But I just looked it up on Etsy, and Olivem300 (or polysorbate 80 as an alternative) is listed in the description as one of the required ingredients. Perhaps she has reformulated since I purchased this recipe.

Regarding the non-hot-pour shampoo bars, the recipe does include SLSa, and other sources (like this recipe on Humblebee & Me) use more SLSa and less SCI. As long as you are pH-testing your final product, it seems like a safe adjustment to lower SCI and up the SLSa. Let us know how it goes!


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## JoyfulSudz (Jun 12, 2022)

@AliOop  Interesting that her Conditioner Bar recipe has changed since she doesn't talk about "new formulation" or anything.

Sure wish there was a Shampoo Calculator that worked like a Lye Calculator.  It could quantify the qualities of each ingredient and as a combination, giving an idea of what you get increasing or decreasing of each component.  This seems like so much more guesswork than creating a soap recipe!

Thanks again for your input!


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 12, 2022)

@JoyfulSudz i initially started out with circa 10% SLSa but found I got an itchy scalp from it. Since reducing it to 5% I’ve had no problems.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jun 12, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> i initially started out with circa 10% SLSa but found I got an itchy scalp from it. Since reducing it to 5% I’ve had no problems.


If that's all the SLSa you use, do you use SCI at higher than the recommended amount of 50-53%? (maybe around 60% or so?) What, if any, other solid surfactants do you use?

I've been using SLSa at 20-27% so far in my test bars with no problem, but one of my testers did report her scalp felt too dry after using it.


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 12, 2022)

JoyfulSudz said:


> If that's all the SLSa you use, do you use SCI at higher than the recommended amount of 50-53%? (maybe around 60% or so?) What, if any, other solid surfactants do you use?
> 
> I've been using SLSa at 20-27% so far in my test bars with no problem, but one of my testers did report her scalp felt too dry after using it.


I use 55% SCI and the SLSa, but also foaming apple . And a titch of decyl glucoside. My bars are pourable so may have more liquid than pressed bars?


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## AliOop (Jun 12, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> I use 55% SCI and the SLSa, but also foaming apple . And a titch of decyl glucoside. My bars are pourable so may have more liquid than pressed bars?


That sounds a lot like the hot pour recipe that I use, except it's CAP-B instead of foaming apple.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jun 12, 2022)

KiwiMoose said:


> I use 55% SCI and the SLSa, but also foaming apple . And a titch of decyl glucoside. My bars are pourable so may have more liquid than pressed bars?


Thank you @KiwiMoose .  I'm not up on New Zealand measurements (lol) -- would a titch be maybe around 2 or 3%?


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 12, 2022)

This my old thread - the recipe develops over time, so don't take the first post as gospel: Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials
Lol @JoyfulSudz - yes that's about right


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## Whillow (Jun 13, 2022)

I use the original DIY pressed 'powder' bar.  I also purchased the pourable one but the one batch I made was way too soft and never did harden up (obviously my error).  I can't keep the original pressed ones in stock.  I also use Humblebee and Me's conditioning bar (which I absolutely love for my hair - thick and straight).   Vanilla Spice Conditioner Bar - Humblebee & Me


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## AliOop (Jun 13, 2022)

Whillow said:


> I use the original DIY pressed 'powder' bar.  I also purchased the pourable one but the one batch I made was way too soft and never did harden up (obviously my error).  I can't keep the original pressed ones in stock.  I also use Humblebee and Me's conditioning bar (which I absolutely love for my hair - thick and straight).   Vanilla Spice Conditioner Bar - Humblebee & Me


I also had trouble with my first batch of hot pour bars being too soft. I don’t know why, either. Every batch I’ve made since then has been great. They are a tad softer than the pressed powder bars, but not much.


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## Whillow (Jun 13, 2022)

AliOop said:


> I also had trouble with my first batch of hot pour bars being too soft. I don’t know why, either. Every batch I’ve made since then has been great. They are a tad softer than the pressed powder bars, but not much.


Oh that is good to know actually, thanks.   I just didn't want to waste the supplies retrying it if that is the way they are.  None of my "testers - guinea pigs (family) lol " liked them at all.  Plus the ingredients are so expensive, and some of them were on back order for quite a while, I think I might try to rebatch the few I still have left over.


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## AliOop (Jun 13, 2022)

I felt the same and didn’t remake them for months afterwards. Then I received some decyl glucoside and jojoba oil on destash, which motivated me to try again.

I have remelted mine in a Pyrex measuring cup in the microwave, which made pouring easy and cleanup a breeze. If you try that, maybe add a bit of cornstarch or rice starch (flour) for hardening. I’d use the rice personally since it is reportedly wonderful for hair. Would love to hear the results if you do remelt!


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## Whillow (Jun 13, 2022)

AliOop said:


> I felt the same and didn’t remake them for months afterwards. Then I received some decyl glucoside and jojoba oil on destash, which motivated me to try again.
> 
> I have remelted mine in a Pyrex measuring cup in the microwave, which made pouring easy and cleanup a breeze. If you try that, maybe add a bit of cornstarch or rice starch (flour) for hardening. I’d use the rice personally since it is reportedly wonderful for hair. Would love to hear the results if you do remelt!


Oh that is excellent.  I will rebatch an definitely post results.  I used hydrolyzed rice protein for that reason as well.  Good idea about the rice starch, thank you.


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## Misschief (Jun 13, 2022)

I make both kinds. I've made and rewarmed the Pourable bars so that I could press them; I didn't like the rustic look of the pourable ones in the mold; no matter what I did, I could not get the tops nice and smooth.


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## Whillow (Jun 13, 2022)

Misschief said:


> I make both kinds. I've made and rewarmed the Pourable bars so that I could press them; I didn't like the rustic look of the pourable ones in the mold; no matter what I did, I could not get the tops nice and smooth.


Did you have to mix any additives to get them to be more solidified?


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## Misschief (Jun 13, 2022)

Whillow said:


> Did you have to mix any additives to get them to be more solidified?


No, but I only reheated them because I didn't like the way they looked. Mine, made as written, were hard enough.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 13, 2022)

Someone asked a page or two back about putting syndet shampoo bars in the freezer and someone else responded that freezing made it easier to unmold the bars.

I agree that chilling freshly made bars can be helpful to get them to unmold cleanly. I only refrigerate the bars for several hours, however, and they come out of the molds nicely.

After unmolding the bars, I store them in the refrigerator as well until I'm ready to use one. I have the luxury of a second fridge for storing garden produce and beverages. I store "best if kept cool" ingredients for my lotions and potions in the veggie drawers of this fridge.

Anyways, the fridge is a frost-free type so the humidity in the fridge is low. Storing freshly made bars in this refrigerator helps them dry down and keeping them in the fridge until I need them helps the bars stay dry and clean. 

I don't think this is a "make or break" factor for the bars I make -- just a tweak. If I didn't have enough refrigerator (or freezer) space, I wouldn't bother.

The only downside to this is if you add fragrance to the shampoo bars -- the scent can be absorbed by lightly wrapped food anywhere in the refrigerator, including the freezer. Having bread that smells like FO was a hard learned lesson and is the reason why I no longer scent my shampoo bars.


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## KiwiMoose (Jun 13, 2022)

I find that refrigerated bars only get condensation once out in the humid air again.  So it's kind of a 'damned it you, damned if you don't' situation.  You put them in to whisk away moisture, and then you take them out and it all comes back again.
Here's my most recently poured bars.  I've moved to the square shape because I find them much easier to hold and less likely to break once they get small and thin.


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