# Missing ingredients in M&P from company?



## jblaney (Apr 25, 2014)

I purchased a soap from a company that sells on Etsy and has their own website.  The company M*** & H**** Naturals sells melt & pour soap and several other items.   I am always curious how other businesses wrap their soap and I want to know how they display their ingredients.   

This company does not list specific ingredients on their website, just a list of "common" ingredients that they use in all of their products.   They do say they are detergent free, but I'm not sure this covers surfactants as well.   When I emailed to ask for the ingredients since the package had none, I was sent this for their Ginger Lime M&P Soap:

ginger essential oil, lime essential oil, dead sea salt, apple extract, sweet orange essential oil, fruit and vegetable powders/natural minerals, scented, filtered water, coconut oil, glycerin, oat kernel flower, coconut milk, cocoa butter, shea butter, mango seed butter.

I want to know from anyone that makes their own M&P, can you make it from just these ingredients?  There are no surfactants included which I think would still work, but she does not even include castor oil or stearic acid.  If this is a base she purchased, she is not including all of the ingredients.   If this is the case it makes me angry.  Her soap bubbles very well, so I don't think it could do this with the ingredients she listed.  There is no lye listed either.  Please let me know your thoughts.


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## FlybyStardancer (Apr 25, 2014)

Another issue... If that's the order that they're listed in, either her proportions are way out of whack or she has them listed wrong. I can't see any sort of soap where the essential oils are the most abundant ingredients!


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## jblaney (Apr 25, 2014)

Flybystardancer - Yes, I noticed this too but didn't want to completely attack the company owner.


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## Obsidian (Apr 25, 2014)

It looks like she is just listing any ingredients she adds to the base. I'd ask for a full list of the M & P base not just what she adds, most likely she wants her M&P to sound "natural" so she doesn't list the chemicals the base is made with.

If M&P is detergent free, that means surfactant free to.


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## FlybyStardancer (Apr 25, 2014)

I agree with Obsidian. 

And honestly, I personally would not want to do business with someone who won't do a full disclosure of their ingredients.  It makes me feel like there's something they want to hide, which is not good for those with health issues.


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## jblaney (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks both of you for your input.   

This irritates me immensely.  I asked her for the ingredients in the bar of soap I purchased and that was not it.  I'm really not sure if they are detergent free either.   It has a lot of bubbles, more in my opinion than the SFIC base.  I know there are other bases out there, but they contain propylene glycol which I would think she would not want in her products. My hands feel dry, but it could be because I washed them a bunch of times.  I have tried most of the "natural" bases out there and this one is different.   If she made it from scratch I believe she would want to say that, but she does not.  I'm not going to harass the woman since she is not honest and I have nothing to learn from her.


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## Obsidian (Apr 25, 2014)

Doesn't all M&P have propylene glycol in it? I have a detergent free M&P bar made with crafters choice base and I hate it. Its very bubbly but its extremely drying and has a slight ammonia smell when wet.

Also, by law since detergent free M&P is listed as a soap, the seller doesn't have to include the ingredients. I wouldn't do business with them either though. If I'm buying a handcrafted bar of soap, I want to know exactly what I'm rubbing on my skin.


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## jblaney (Apr 25, 2014)

SFIC does not have propylene glycol in it.  

I don't like Crafter's Choice M&P of any kind.   The one's with detergent are very drying and the detergent free don't feel nice to me.

You are correct, it is soap and legally she does not have to list ingredients, but since I specifically asked, I believe she should have told me exactly what was in it and not given me a partial list.   I could be wrong, but it irritates me none the less.


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## Aline (Apr 25, 2014)

I abhor deceptive advertising & fraudulent labeling too. This woman is very sneaky: instead of saying Fragrance Oil she says 'fragranced'. And I bet you anything she is not using ginger essential oil. It would be expensive to use in soap and does not smell as good as ginger FO. She also has 'Organic Made Beautiful' on her labels and has a FAQ: What is organic? on her listing. i.e. she implies her soaps are organic without blatantly saying so (and of course they are not). Ugh Ugh. I hate it! Honestly, I want to tell everyone off who does that but I just can't go there. I'll just rant a bit instead :twisted:


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## Aline (Apr 25, 2014)

Obsidian said:


> Doesn't all M&P have propylene glycol in it?.



No, absolutely not. Brambleberry's premium bases for instance....

Aline


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## jblaney (Apr 25, 2014)

Brambleberry's premium bases are from SFIC and I like them.

Aline - I know, I noticed all of that too but I didn't want to pick to poor woman apart so I'm glad you pointed it out. :mrgreen:

I have some ginger root essential oil CO2 extracted and it is lovely, but yes, it would be pretty expensive.  I used a little in a soap once and it was nice, but she would have to charge more for her soaps than she is.  Maybe she puts a drop in and the rest is FO.


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## Khanjari (Apr 26, 2014)

I think when trying to sell MP soaps either she should write all the ingredients or instead of just saying glycerin, she should say melt and pour glycerin soap base.

But that's just me and my opinion!


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## cmzaha (Apr 26, 2014)

jblaney said:


> Thanks both of you for your input.
> 
> This irritates me immensely. I asked her for the ingredients in the bar of soap I purchased and that was not it. I'm really not sure if they are detergent free either. It has a lot of bubbles, more in my opinion than the SFIC base. I know there are other bases out there, but they contain propylene glycol which I would think she would not want in her products. My hands feel dry, but it could be because I washed them a bunch of times. I have tried most of the "natural" bases out there and this one is different. If she made it from scratch I believe she would want to say that, but she does not. I'm not going to harass the woman since she is not honest and I have nothing to learn from her.


 
It may not be an honesty issue. It may be that she is adding something different from the norm and does not want her recipe copied. Or at the very least someone trying to copy it. It is tough selling out there and if you come up with something different it could make a person not want to list all. Not saying it is right, but sometimes you just do not want to disclose all. Also there is the gray area of Trade Secrets. There are some very nice sls free m&p bases available. Nope I am not trying to start an argument here, just another opinion :-o


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## heather s (Apr 26, 2014)

...or she may just not know? I honestly do not know if many people outside if the soaping community have a clue that there is a difference in mp and cp, hp etc. to them it is just soap...and if you make it yourself, well, it's "all natural". Just look at the "all natural" homemade cleaner recipes on pintrest! Mix dawn and hydrogen peroxide for an all natural stain remover! lol If she is a crafter and not a soap maker in her eyes buying a base and adding lovely ingredients herself means it is a natural product. And asking for the ingredients would simply mean to her what she adds to the base. Just another hypothesis ;-)


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## jblaney (Apr 26, 2014)

Upon further washing, it does not have more bubbles than mine.  It seemed to yesterday, but it does not now.   

I understand trade secrets, but when it comes to ingredients people put on their skin or in their bodies it needs to be disclosed.   I have MANY allergies, most food, but topical as well.   I do not tolerate large amounts of coconut oil, even in my body butters.  I'm sensitive to it and it makes my skin flakey it I use it often.  

Before I started making soap I did not realize the deception involved.   I find it annoying but I guess I better get used to it.


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## Aline (Apr 28, 2014)

jblaney said:


> Brambleberry's premium bases are from SFIC and I like them.
> 
> Aline - I know, I noticed all of that too but I didn't want to pick to poor woman apart so I'm glad you pointed it out. :mrgreen:
> 
> I have some ginger root essential oil CO2 extracted and it is lovely, but yes, it would be pretty expensive.  I used a little in a soap once and it was nice, but she would have to charge more for her soaps than she is.  Maybe she puts a drop in and the rest is FO.



That's useful to know that BrambleBerry soaps are from SFIC. I have ginger CO2 also and it is nice but doesn't smell as good in soap as FO. And as you said, way too expensive! I think it is extremely unlikely she uses any of it in her soap - but I know you want to give her the benefit of the doubt


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## stlsoaps (May 2, 2014)

*Just another perspective*

I didn't see the original link, so I can't speak to the specific seller, but... The seller is not legally obligated to disclose anything other than the fact it is soap. She didn't disclose the ingredient list on her website, but you bought it anyway. In her mind, perhaps the ingredient list she gave you after the sale was a courtesy. I don't think it necessarily makes her shady. 

Perhaps she doesn't clearly understand how saponification works? Or maybe she herself bought some shady M&P that didn't have the ingredients listed and she doesn't know. Or worse, doesn't even know that M&P she's buying is a low quality. I don't know that I would buy from her again, but naive does not necessarily equal shady.


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## lisamaliga (May 2, 2014)

jblaney said:


> I was sent this for their Ginger Lime M&P Soap:
> 
> ginger essential oil, lime essential oil, dead sea salt, apple extract, sweet orange essential oil, fruit and vegetable powders/natural minerals, scented, filtered water, coconut oil, glycerin, oat kernel flower, coconut milk, cocoa butter, shea butter, mango seed butter.



That's a strange listing. At first I thought it was alphabetical order, but no, it's clearly not. Glycerin, coconut oil or water should be the first ingredient listed. Not being able to properly list ingredients isn't a way to instill customer confidence...just my opinion.


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## seven (May 2, 2014)

not commenting on how she listed the ingredients, just saying that it is possible to make mp only with glycerine thru the hp method. i've not done it myself, but there are others who did, there's a post about this topic in this sub-forum.


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## Khanjari (May 2, 2014)

seven said:


> not commenting on how she listed the ingredients, just saying that it is possible to make mp only with glycerine thru the hp method. i've not done it myself, but there are others who did, there's a post about this topic in this sub-forum.



Seven,  I respect your deep knowledge very very much!  There are a few people in this forum that I always look for posts on a topic and you are one of them   HATS OFF


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## jblaney (May 2, 2014)

Seven - 

Yes, that was my first question on this post.   I wanted to know if she made it herself.   I do not believe she did.  She says nothing on her site that she makes her own soap which she would tout if she actually made the base herself.  Also, the recipe for M&P on this site had castor and stearic acid in it, which she claims she has none of in her "ingredients".  No, it sounds like what many have said, she listed what she adds to the base she purchases.  I just went back and under "common ingredients" she says her soaps have sorbitol in them, yet that was left out when I asked for the ingredients.   Maybe since she listed it somewhere on her website she felt she did not have to repeat it?

 I have no problem with her purchasing a base and adding to it, but I do have a problem if I ask for the ingredients and they are left out in a private email to me.   She's either ignorant or unethical...take your pick.   Neither is acceptable when selling to the public.  She's not breaking any laws though, but ethics is a grey area.

I do not mean to pick on this one company in particular.  I'm sure there are many people doing what she is doing, but my feelings about it have not changed.


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## seven (May 3, 2014)

aaww thank you Khanjari  i just happen to know about this, coz i was the one who posted about the glycerine hp method (which i got from another blog btw). i am still a new soaper myself. living and learning new things everyday.

initially, i thought mp is not possible w/o propylene glycol, boy was i wrong. ppl make their mp in many ways, using different ingredients. one can learn a lot just by looking at the ingredients list on soap supplies shops that sell mp bases. 

as for this lady seller, i somehow doubt it that she was making her own base using the gly method. i dont have anything to back this up though, just a hunch, which could very well be wrong at the end


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