# Customer Return Request - WWYD



## amd (Aug 27, 2018)

Today I received a message from a customer who ordered through Etsy. The message says that while she thinks my soaps are adorable, she can't use them because they have an animal product (tallow) in them. She's asking if she can return the product for a refund.

I do currently have Etsy's generic return policy listed on my store (my bad, I meant to update to my actual return policy, but never did).









Now I would be be ok with this... but ... I do list all of my ingredients on each of my listings so she should have known that there was tallow in it before she bought it.

What would you do as a business owner, or expect as a customer? (I'm only asking because, as stated in a previous post today, this week I'm a jerk and I'm not apologizing for it. So if this is a jerky move to not do the refund, I'd like to know.)


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## DeeAnna (Aug 27, 2018)

Your refund/return policy is quite clear. It doesn't say anything about the customer being required to accept responsibility for having read the ingredients list, so you don't have a leg to stand on regarding that point.

Smile through gritted teeth and do what it takes to honor your stated policy to the letter. My guess is you risk bad reviews and potentially having your store shut down if you don't follow through.

Consider it a lesson in the school of life. I've had a lot of those running my small (not soap) biz over the years.


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## Obsidian (Aug 27, 2018)

Since the policy says you'll gladly except returns, I feel you need to refund this customer.
Its better to deal with unreasonable customers in a positive way. You don't want to get a bad review for lousy customer service.
You need to update your terms asap to what you want them to be. Personally, I would only do refunds for damaged or mislabeled goods.


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## Dahila (Aug 27, 2018)

Few days ago my customer brought opened facial lotion.  I had refund her because I had not info in my booth that not refund of open products.  Now I do and it is good size,  In years or selling nobody brought lotion back, or even complained,  She told me that she suffers with Lupus and this is why she could not use.  Now I will ask even more questions before selling   I gave the money back and threw cream into garbage can
Check if your ingredient list is up to date and ask people to check it for allergies,  So you do not have surprises like that.


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## cerelife (Aug 28, 2018)

I don't think you're being a jerk at all since you clearly listed 'tallow' as an ingredient in your soap, and you DO have that 'hygiene' portion in your policy. 
But as a business owner myself, I would offer to replace her soaps with non-animal fat soaps (if you offer them) in lieu of a refund. And request that she give the soaps she received originally to a friend/family member/co-worker who doesn't mind animal fat in soap with your blessings and your contact information. This way you have a happy customer and maybe some new customers who love your tallow soap.


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## Relle (Aug 28, 2018)

I tried to return sunscreen to a retail shop(only because I  could get it 40% off elsewhere )unopened, no seal broken and they wouldn't do it for hygiene reasons and I might have had it in the car in the sun,so if they won't do it in a retail shop, then you shouldn't have to do it online.


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## Alfa_Lazcares (Aug 28, 2018)

I am gonna go on a bit of a tangent here but i was really surprised when i saw a bunch of youtubera buying makeup, using it, deciding they dont like it and return it and noone bats an eye. Same with perfume or whatever. People are getting way too used to buying stuff and taking it back. 

In your case I honestly wouldnt give a refund. You have stated the personal items cant be returned and soap is as personal as it gets. Also you have your list of ingredients on display. Its not your faul people wont read what is written. Is not there to look pretty (another of my pet peeves is why oh why people wont read!). As a customer i wouldnt expect a refund because it was my mistake not to read, specially if i know I wont use something because it has a certain ingredient. If you didnt have that info on display, then fine, you should have told me what i am buying, that would be on you, but in this case nope. 

Sorry for the ranty post. It does kind of irk me.


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## lsg (Aug 28, 2018)

I agee with Deann.  Your return policy clearly states that you gladly take returns.  Is it better to honor the return statement or to risk a bad review and a customer complaint filed with etsy?


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## Lin19687 (Aug 28, 2018)

Yeah I would change policy ASAP and then say you will refund of the soap price only.  BUT they have to pay for shipping back and if they paid for shipping to them, that is not refunded


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## dibbles (Aug 28, 2018)

First I'm going to comment on what would I expect as a customer. Upon receiving the soaps and realizing there was tallow in them, the first thing I would do is go back to your Etsy store and see if the ingredients were listed. Finding that they are, my feeling would be this was my stupid mistake and I'd give away the soap I bought. You wouldn't have heard from me.

But, since she has contacted you about a return, I agree that you should just give it to her if she returns the product in the same condition it was sent to her. You may be right and she may be wrong, but it isn't worth a bad review IMO. And I doubt she will think she is at fault either. People can be pretty dense.

And I would put Change Etsy Return Policy on the top of my to do list.


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## amd (Aug 28, 2018)

Thanks, all, for your input. I appreciate it. This is a gray area for my black & white brain. I agree that if I had been the customer I wouldn't have contacted the seller because I didn't read the ingredients before purchasing. After giving it some thought and reading what everyone wrote, I am going to message her that I will honor the return. The return policy states that she has to pay shipping, so I will make sure she knows that shipping will not be refunded. I don't have a vegan line (in three years this is only the second person who has said anything about the tallow, so I haven't played with vegan recipes at all), so I can't offer her a replacement. I will take this as a learning lesson and get my return policy updated. (@Lin19687 remember when you told me months ago that I should update it? You can say "I told you so" and we'll both laugh over it  ) Fortunately her order was only two bars of soap, so really, I'm not hurting over receiving the product back. Hopefully she learned to read listings as well.


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## SaltedFig (Aug 28, 2018)

I picked a "cute" soap at random. Something curious about the way your etsy listing appears ... the text ends with the lines
"Fragrance: A good for you blend of oatmeal, milk, honey and almond.
  Special Ingredients: Honey for luxurious bubbles."

Initially I thought that there were no ingredients listed as they weren't in the overview, where I often find them.

Now that I've done it, I know that a further click, on "more" a few lines under the listing leads to the ingredients, which makes me think there is a distinct possibility that the customer never actually saw the ingredients and that their first knowledge of the ingredients was on receipt of the soap.

The reason I'm writing this is because even if you change your refund policy, you may still get the same thing occurring ... only then you'll have a "tight" refund/return/exchange policy and the same decision to make.

What I would do (for what it's worth): If she were my customer, I wouldn't ask her to pay return shipping. I wouldn't ask her to return it at all, I would refund the soap and put it down to experience. I certainly wouldn't resell a returned soap (no matter how good it's packaging looks). In addition to modify the default refund policy (to one better suited to how you like to do business), I would mention in the overview either that the soap contains animal fat, or alternatively, that the full ingredient list is available below - then either the information, or the location of the information, is available on the first page.

Sorry this has happened, but it is rather lucky you got this thought provoking situation with what seems to be a very nice customer.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 28, 2018)

I'm not saying I would be happy giving a refund, but I'd do it. My thinking is the same as yours -- customers need to read what you provide. But that doesn't necessarily mean that will happen, especially if the list isn't super easy to find. 

I don't interpret "intimate" items as including soap. The word is way too vague, a lot like the word "natural." IMO, deodorant, makeup, perfume, lotion, lube, underwear ... yes, those are intimate items. Soap ... not really. Soap needs to be called out by name in the returns policy, not left to people's interpretation of what "intimate" means.

The "customer pays return shipping" clause should be a discouragement for her to return a mere 2 bars of soap, but obviously not. Sometimes people don't really understand the cost of shipping until they actually have to ship something, so maybe she's not really realized what she's getting herself into. Hard to say. 

My experience with customers who return things has been really variable (and thankfully rare.) I've dealt with customers who have a righteous head of steam built up by the time they contact me, as if I have and will continue to personally and intentionally offend them. Then there are others who are civil and matter of fact. My goal is to make sure they get pretty much what they want (even the annoyed customers usually have reasonable expectations) and end the transaction with them being reasonably happy. I refuse to show apologetic or fawning behavior, but I do try to make them understand I see they are dissatisfied and I will work to resolve their dissatisfaction.


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## shunt2011 (Aug 28, 2018)

I too would give a refund but would make the customer return the items at their expense just because,  if it's that important to them to return it.  Then of course throw it out.    I personally always look for all information on the product I'm purchasing and if in doubt ask questions.   It's a hassle but not worth a bad review.


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## earlene (Aug 28, 2018)

I agree with your decision, of course.

But where the ingredients are listed seems pretty normal to me for an Etsy listing.  In looking at other soapmaker's soap listing, some use the Overview section for the ingredients list and some do not.  It does not appear to be a uniform thing where to put the ingredients list on Etsy.  But, as SaltedFig says, maybe some users of Etsy expect to see it only one way and don't bother to look at the + More area. 

I've learned with Etsy that if I want to get as much information as I desire, I have to read all of the listing and sometimes I have to ask the seller questions.  But then, I choose to be an informed consumer.  Not everyone does that.  However, even an informed consumer has to send things back sometimes and I have learned to appreciate the thoughtful and conscientious seller who honors a return.  I have also learned that my mistake is my own fault and not the sellers.  Financially, it's not a fun lesson, but perhaps this customer will learn it when she has to pay the return shipping and in future will pay closer attention to details before purchase.


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## Dennis (Aug 28, 2018)

Not a seller now but have been in the past.  I too have a black and white brain and it has been the source of difficulty with people in the past.  
I agree that the customer should get a refund but for a different reason than most might think.  A couple bars of soap is just not worth the drama and negative effect it would have on you.  I'm willing to bet you have far more customers who are positive and love your products than the few who are negative.  You will run across them from time to time.  Don't view it as a win/lose situation.  Once they pay to return (bet they change their mind) and get their refund you'll never hear from them again.  After it's all over, go outside and SCREAM as loud as you can.
It feels good.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 28, 2018)

My experience with my customers is that many skim the product listing and don't do well at comprehending the info. I've had people ask questions about an item's size, color, weight, etc. or how to use an item when all of that is clearly listed in the main description section. It's really weird sometimes to answer their questions with a straight face -- it's like they're not on the same planet that I am on.

@Dennis -- I totally get it about minimizing the drama quotient. I'd rather have a difficult conversation that ends well than one that ends badly. I can more easily let go of any negative feelings I have about the experience if things end reasonably well. Sometimes bending over backwards a small amount will make all the difference in the outcome. I can't expect my customer to do that, but I can.


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## cmzaha (Aug 28, 2018)

I know what I would do but that is just me. I would contact the buyer ask if they would like a vegan soap in it's place and let them keep the other soap to do with it as they may. Actually we have done such, maybe for other reasons but still it can gain a customer. If the customer bothered to visit and purchase from your Etsy store do you really want to lose the customer forever or keep them as a customer? You may lose a few dollars but may gain a customer. Although it can happen that you will come across a habitual returner or one that expects a new free product, so we would not usually do such a second time. Out of my daughters hundreds of customers we only had that happen with one person. We tended to replace any product a customer was un-happy with except for our one customer.

If your description list is on a second page they very well may have not clicked on the more or next tab. It happens. As I get older I notice at times I miss reading something that was right there. All our brains and eyes just do not always work the same and maybe she honestly missed the ingredients and maybe her brain was not thinking tallow soap because she always buys vegan. Many sellers today do not use animal fats in their soaps. I also use a second line under my soap name and state if it is vegan friendly.

I also do not consider soap an intimate item. I forgot to mention there are times I have told a customer if they do not like a particular soap I recommended they are more than welcome to bring it back and pick a new soap. Never had any do such, but I am sure one day someone will.


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## reinbeau (Aug 28, 2018)

If it was opened and used then I'm sorry, I would *not* take it back. Why involve shipping at all? Refund her the cost of the soap only and be done with it. Definitely change your refund policies. This is one reason I have no desire to sell online.


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## SaltedFig (Aug 28, 2018)

My thinking takes Denis' desire to minimise drama one step further.To me, the idea of waiting for a return before refunding means that the whole thing is going to be on my "to do" list for as long as it takes the customer to send the bars back (if they do at all).

I'd much rather refund and write it off as soon as it's obvious it's going nowhere (no usable soap, no viable customer). It's not a big deal - nothing more has been lost by doing this than has already been lost, and I am really not interested in throwing out my own product - that's never going to feel good.

Then you leave it up to the (former) customer to dispose of the soap. They might end up giving the soap to a non-vegan friend (it's not often that a good product will get thrown out, especially when a person feels like they've "achieved" a win) so there's a chance you will get free advertising, and potentially a replacement customer, in return for soap that can't be resold.


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## amd (Aug 28, 2018)

This is what I sent to her this morning:






Of course... an hour later I remembered that my castile soap is vegan! Oh well. For two bars of soap, I'm not extremely worried. The two soaps she purchased were "only one left" bars so I won't be putting them back into the store. Not worth paying the listing price for Etsy. I'll just write them off and throw them in my personal soap stash.


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## earlene (Aug 28, 2018)

Well, there you go!  You 'learned' you do carry vegan soap after all!


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## DeeAnna (Aug 28, 2018)

Yeah, I do this too -- issue a refund or replacement and tell the customer to keep the original product. It depends on the cost of the item -- my products range from under $1 to over $1000. High dollar items I do ask for a return; low cost items I usually don't. This often makes people pretty happy.

@amd Sherry -- you struck a really nice balance in your message to your customer. I like how you asked a question about making the ingred list more visible -- you made your point without being confrontational, and you invited feedback which may result in some good suggestions for your business. Well done!


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## Dennis (Aug 28, 2018)

Two thumbs up!  Excellent!  Also, your vegan castile could possibly be considered "custom".  Ha!


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## scard (Aug 28, 2018)

She can always return those soaps to me, I'm not a vegan and your soaps are really pretty!


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## Lin19687 (Aug 28, 2018)

@amd funny I almost forgot about that chat we had.  But now that I do I went and double checked mine 

I would like to know if she actually returns it.  Would be funny to see if she truly wants a refund or was fishing.

I know of someone that was contacted about a refund, made them return it and it WASN'T EVEN THEIR STUFF !?


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## lsg (Aug 29, 2018)

Good message to the customer.  If she is truly interested in returning, she should respond.  Let us know if she responds.


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## amd (Aug 29, 2018)

So far, no response. I'll send the refund when/if I receive the soaps.


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## NsMar42111 (Aug 29, 2018)

I disagree, I'd have them ship it back-because I've read website where they do this on purpose. They'll buy something, demand a refund, keep using said something and tada! Free something! It's touted as a frugal money saving method...errr no. I would up date the return policy though LOL.


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## BrewerGeorge (Aug 29, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> @amd
> I know of someone that was contacted about a refund, made them return it and it WASN'T EVEN THEIR STUFF !?


I work in the electronics repair industry.  It's not at all uncommon for us to receive returns of printers from entirely different manufacturers.  Once, we got back a Nikon camera in a printer box.

As for the OP question, I would change my policy to All Sales Final.  Assuming you sell only soap, body, etc items, every return is a loss because you can not resell any returns.  Why incurr an additional cost - especially one that you can't control - in a craft that already has such a low margin?  It's not like we're talking about defects, here but people who try something and don't like it.  Are you running  a trial shop or a sales business?

The very idea of returning things is a very American concept.  Our Japanese colleagues struggle with the concept when they are new because you simply can't return things in Japan.  Once you buy something, it's yours.  Even if you buy something brand new and fails out of the box, it will not be replaced; you must have it repaired (under warranty, though).


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## cmzaha (Aug 29, 2018)

NsMar42111 said:


> I disagree, I'd have them ship it back-because I've read website where they do this on purpose. They'll buy something, demand a refund, keep using said something and tada! Free something! It's touted as a frugal money saving method...errr no. I would up date the return policy though LOL.


It does, but there are still more honest buyers that not. I mentioned we had one that was a habitual returner because she knew we did not require shipping back. We just cut her from our customer list. Then the other direction I sent a soap, my bad, that was not good and our customer never informed us. I contacted her and she had tossed it and just figured it was an error. I replaced with double the soaps which she said was un-necessary. So there are good customers. I also asked her to please let us know of any issues. It takes time and some loss of product to build a good online customer base, but it can be done. BTW Bloggers are the worst to work with.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 29, 2018)

@NsMar42111 -- Yeah, you have a good point there. In my biz, the few customers who do want to return an item have all seemed legit and have reasonable reasons for the return, so I've not had a problem with them keeping an item if it's low cost. I would never put this in writing by the way -- I do this only at my discretion.

I did have a situation once with a wholesale customer who claimed some of the items in her order had a cut across them. She wanted to return the items for an exchange. I am certain she or another employee used a box cutter to open the box and sliced some of the product in the process. That really p....d me off because that wasn't my problem to solve. Since I couldn't prove without any shadow of doubt that it wasn't my error, I replaced the product, but I kept a wary eye on that client after that incident. And started to put warning stickers on the boxes about using box cutters.


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## LilyJo (Aug 29, 2018)

If you sell online in the UK you are obligated to accept returns and refund the original postage as part of the updated consumer contract laws. There are some exceptions but if something like this happens to me we either send a replacement or refund without expecting the return (in the long run both save me the cost of the return and the postage).


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## Lin19687 (Aug 29, 2018)

LilyJo said:


> If you sell online in the UK you are obligated to accept returns and refund the original postage as part of the updated consumer contract laws. There are some exceptions but if something like this happens to me we either send a replacement or refund without expecting the return (in the long run both save me the cost of the return and the postage).



That will never happen here.  This is a return crazy country and if that happened everyone would stop selling.
Could you just imagine ???


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## amd (Aug 29, 2018)

NsMar42111 said:


> I disagree, I'd have them ship it back-because I've read website where they do this on purpose. They'll buy something, demand a refund, keep using said something and tada! Free something! It's touted as a frugal money saving method...errr no. I would up date the return policy though LOL.



I have done replacements for customers that I know without them ever returning the product - such as last February when a customer contacted me about my Nag Champa soap. She'd bought it in October and she was about to use it but she didn't think it smelled the same as when she bought it. Now... we know that fragrances will fade when soap gets older, and in this customers defense she did buy 10 bars in October, so at the time that she used it the soap was probably close to 14 months old. This customer happens to buy regularly from me and sends new customers my way quite often, so I did replace the 3 bars of old Nag Champa with bars that were two months old, and I never asked her to send the old ones back, I just did it. Because I know her. Because she gives me business. Now, the Etsy gal requesting a refund? I will probably never see her again. I don't know her outside of this one transaction. Am I going to blindly return her money because she can't read a product description? Nope. I've offered her the refund and informed her that she does have to pay return shipping - exactly what is posted on my Etsy store policy. If she's fishing for free product, she won't be getting it from me. I'm a jerk this week and I'm not apologizing for it.


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## earlene (Aug 29, 2018)

I would certainly be wary of purchasing anything if I couldn't return it if it didn't work or was faulty!  In my 20's I bought a 35mm movie camera that didn't work straight out of the box, so I exchanged it for a new one, same model. It didn't work either, so I returned it for a full refund.  I was really disappointed because I wanted a movie camera as my kids were small at the time and having a movie camera was really something pretty cool to have.  But it was a long time before I was able to find an affordable one after that situation.

When I was young I was really wary of mail order, even though I did order from Sears Catalog once in awhile because if something didn't fit or malfunctioned I could return it at the Sears & Roebuck in my hometown.  I loved the  Spiegel Catalogue, but Spiegel was in Chicago and I was in California, so returns would have been a hassle with which I just wouldn't want to deal.  But, boy oh boy were they big!  I used to work at the USPS sorting mail in the late 60's and Spiegel had it's own 5-digit zip code.  My home town (a city) in the SF Bay area had only one 5-digit zip code at that time, if I remember correctly.  To me that was remarkable.  But of course that was a long time ago.  Many things have changed so much since then.  Now it's online ordering and empty storefronts all over the place and Amazon lockers (in some locations) so you don't have to depend on boxes being left unattended on your door step.

But still, returns are considered practically a basic right in the US  and apparently in the UK, too by what I am reading.  I do believe that is as it should be.  Have you ever bought a carton of milk with an expiration date of at least 7 more days and when you get home and open it 30 minutes later it's spoiled and undrinkable?  If I were not allowed to return that to the grocery store, I would be livid.


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## cerelife (Aug 30, 2018)

amd said:


> I have done replacements for customers that I know without them ever returning the product - such as last February when a customer contacted me about my Nag Champa soap. She'd bought it in October and she was about to use it but she didn't think it smelled the same as when she bought it. Now... we know that fragrances will fade when soap gets older, and in this customers defense she did buy 10 bars in October, so at the time that she used it the soap was probably close to 14 months old. This customer happens to buy regularly from me and sends new customers my way quite often, so I did replace the 3 bars of old Nag Champa with bars that were two months old, and I never asked her to send the old ones back, I just did it. Because I know her. Because she gives me business. Now, the Etsy gal requesting a refund? I will probably never see her again. I don't know her outside of this one transaction. Am I going to blindly return her money because she can't read a product description? Nope. I've offered her the refund and informed her that she does have to pay return shipping - exactly what is posted on my Etsy store policy. If she's fishing for free product, she won't be getting it from me. I'm a jerk this week and I'm not apologizing for it.


THIS!!
I had a similar situation with a customer whom I knew a couple of years ago and I did exactly the same as you. She was amazed and delighted that I didn't ask her to return her products since she said she liked them but didn't LOVE them as much as what she had originally bought. It happens, and I know her and had zero problems sending her replacements!
But I gained a devoted customer and made a friend in the process 
We work some of the same festivals and now we just barter our products until we meet again. We have a loose running tab and always joke about who is in whom's debt 
BTW, she's an amazing artist and a total sweetheart!
http://ellenmccordarts.com/


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## SaltedFig (Aug 30, 2018)

LilyJo said:


> If you sell online in the UK you are obligated to accept returns and refund the original postage as part of the updated consumer contract laws. There are some exceptions but if something like this happens to me we either send a replacement or refund without expecting the return (in the long run both save me the cost of the return and the postage).



LilyJo, the distance selling rules don't apply for purchases under £42, according to this UK government website "Online and Distance Selling for Businesses"

For the 14 day change of mind returns, it looks like you only need to refund the standard delivery charge for postage (not any extra's or premium postage services). See "cancellation by the consumer"

It looks like there's an out for you, for change of mind returns only - you can charge for the reasonable return postage (the arrangements for the return automatically fall to you unless you have written into your listing/policy in advance that it's the customers responsibility to arrange the return). See "return delivery charges"

Your Consumer Rights Act 2015 is complex (and replaced 3 acts - that's a bit a huge change ) ... I think where I am is much easier, but I can see what they were trying to achieve.

Our laws in Australia allow a reasonable deduction for postage and handling when an item is returned, so our consumer laws are a little more biased in the sellers favour in that respect. We are also still allowed to refuse change-of-mind returns, but a lot of places/sellers here don't do that anymore.

Do American laws allow amd to charge reasonable handling charges on the return (if it happens) before issuing a refund?


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## DeeAnna (Aug 30, 2018)

Some companies in the US charge a "restocking fee" that they use to discourage/penalize the customer for making a return. It's not commonly done, but if it's stated clearly up front, it's legal. 

***
What especially gripes me about returns is when the customer just throws the product topsy turvy in a box and expects it to arrive at my shop in "as received" condition ready for re-sale. 

Two wholesale clients pulled this stunt in recent years. In each case, $500 to $1000 worth of product was returned. We package many items in plastic bags or paper and take care to arrange the items so they don't get damaged during shipping. These customers returned the items "naked" and all tumbled together.

In one case, the products still had the adhesive price stickers attached directly on the product. When I discussed this with her, she blandly told me I should just sell the priced items to other people and they could remove the stickers. (If you've ever dealt with adhesive stickers on leather, you'll know stickers often cause permanent damage.) I had to trash about 1/3 to 1/2 of each return for damage. 

As Dennis pointed out, I've learned it's important to know when to quit -- to know when to not add more drama to the already existing drama. So I ate the cost of the damaged goods rather than fight about it. I absolutely knew I wasn't going to win with either of these people. I did, however, add them to my short list of fired clients and used the energy I would have otherwise wasted to serve the many reasonable and nice people I have as customers.


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## LilyJo (Aug 30, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> LilyJo, the distance selling rules don't apply for purchases under £42, according to this UK government website "Online and Distance Selling for Businesses"
> 
> For the 14 day change of mind returns, it looks like you only need to refund the standard delivery charge for postage (not any extra's or premium postage services). See "cancellation by the consumer"
> 
> ...



Hmm, thats not my interpretation of the laws nor other peoples! Distance selling is different to online selling which has greater restrictions and more protections for the consumer and as far as I am concerned both as a customer and a seller the £42 doesnt come into it.

I am aware of the 14 day refund process regarding extras and also not refunding personalised items - Ive been doing this for years and my website complies with UK laws despite most other soapers and candle makers not even bothering with addresses, contact details let alone CLP labels for candles and safety assessments for soaps.

The law is trying to deliver the same level of protection to online customers as they would have if they bought in person as at a B&M store they would have the opportunity to see, smell etc any product. There isnt a legal responsibility for either to accept returns as a change of mind but its considered good customer service.

Did you know that any seller in the US or AUS that sells into the UK is obligated to comply with UK laws? If you have a business and sell through Etsy or a website your products should be EU compliant if you offer sales there. And vice versa - its one of the reasons we dont sell to US and why its so hard to insurance to cover goods sold over there


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## earlene (Aug 30, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> Do American laws allow amd to charge reasonable handling charges on the return (if it happens) before issuing a refund?



Different states have different laws, but several class action law suits have resulted in large monetary judgments against some very large companies who charged unjustifiably high 'shipping and handling' or 'shipping and processing' fees.  The DMA (Direct Marketing Association) has guidelines (for US sellers) on how to set shipping and processing fees that can help them stay out of trouble and avoid law suits over unfair practices. 

Oh, I just re-read your question and it was about the _return_, not the original sale.  Again, states have different laws and all seems to boil down to the posted policies.  (one reference: https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/return-policies-and-refunds.html)  (another reference:  https://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/customer-returns-and-refund-laws-by-state.html)

But what I find most interesting can be found in this article:  https://www.commercehub.com/e-commerce-returns-refunds-best-practice-guide/
Apparently, easy return policies lead to increased business.  Note that although Zappos most valuable customers have a 50% return rate, once they changed their return policies to make it easier for a customer to do returns, their sales shot up 457%.  So the bottom line for Zappos (shoe sales, my husband really like Zappos shoes, btw) is that their return policy has more than paid for itself in increased sales.

But, more to the point I think, rather than does US law allow...  one could ask the opposite, does US law DIS-allow...  No, US law does not dis-allow charging reasonable handling.  Restocking fees are a fairly common practice, which irritates me, but as long as it's clearly posted in the return policy in whatever state where I purchase, it is legal.  If I agree to the policy, I don't have a leg to stand on in court to sue for unfair restocking fees (per many lawsuit judgements in the past.)



LilyJo said:


> Did you know that any seller in the US or AUS that sells into the UK is obligated to comply with UK laws? If you have a business and sell through Etsy or a website your products should be EU compliant if you offer sales there. And vice versa - its one of the reasons we dont sell to US and why its so hard to insurance to cover goods sold over there



Yes, that is true, and rightly so, may I add.  And it's one of the reasons why some companies complain about EU regulations.  But it's part of doing business globally.  If a company doesn't like the regulations/laws within the global market, then they should determine if they really want to sell globally.


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## OldHippie (Aug 30, 2018)

earlene said:


> In my 20's I bought a 35mm movie camera that didn't work straight out of the box, so I exchanged it for a new one, same model.


When you were in your 20's, a 35mm movie camera weighed more than you did.  No doubt you had an 8mm movie camera.


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## earlene (Aug 30, 2018)

OldHippie said:


> When you were in your 20's, a 35mm movie camera weighed more than you did.  No doubt you had an 8mm movie camera.


You are right that it wasn't a 35mm movie camera; it was either an 8mm or 16mm movie camera.  I do wish I could remember (I recall what it looked like, but not the brand or even the name of the store where I bought it, although I do remember where the store was located.)  But, no it wasn't a 35mm movie camera.  

I did have a 35mm regular camera, though.  My dad gave each and everyone of us kids a 35mm camera when we reached a certain age (about 10 or 12 depending on how 'mature' each of us was at the time, I guess) and taught us photography.


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## SaltedFig (Aug 30, 2018)

LilyJo said:


> Hmm, thats not my interpretation of the laws nor other peoples! Distance selling is different to online selling which has greater restrictions and more protections for the consumer and as far as I am concerned both as a customer and a seller the £42 doesnt come into it.
> 
> I am aware of the 14 day refund process regarding extras and also not refunding personalised items - Ive been doing this for years and my website complies with UK laws despite most other soapers and candle makers not even bothering with addresses, contact details let alone CLP labels for candles and safety assessments for soaps.
> 
> ...



Thanks LilyJo .

I saw that international sellers, selling into the UK, need to comply with the local laws. It makes sense for it to be like this, but it sure makes things complex!

I'm still seeing a 14 day cancellation (no reason required) in the government (and other) help pages, but from what you are saying it's not commonly used?

It is hard being compliant (and hats off to you for doing so!). Have you heard of non-compliant sellers being penalised under the new regulations?

And this is what I've found so far, on distance and online selling in the UK:
From what I could tell, the online selling rules are in addition to the distance selling rules (so my understanding is both apply?).
I did check the online selling page from the UK government, and it had the 14 rule under "Right to cancel", exceptions to this rule under "Exceptions" (which is where I found the 42 pound rule) and the link to the page Accepting returns and giving refunds: the law, where the 14 day cancellation rule is found under the heading "Online, mail and phone order sales".

I found this other guide to returns and online sales which also mentioned that only the standard postage needs to be refunded (not the extras) in the instance of a return, a regulation information page, and this news article talked about the standard delivery charge and how some people aren't being given it when it's due (when they've purchased online then changed their mind and returned the goods).

@earlene 
Wow - state by state, that's a lot of law to look at! Thanks for the insight into how your laws work Earlene. Much appreciated. 

So, if I've got this right, amd is unlikely to be able to charge a handling fee for the return of the unwanted goods in this instance.


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## earlene (Aug 30, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> @earlene
> Wow - state by state, that's a lot of law to look at! Thanks for the insight into how your laws work Earlene. Much appreciated.
> 
> So, if I've got this right, amd is unlikely to be able to charge a handling fee for the return of the unwanted goods in this instance.



Right, the posted return policy (at the time of purchase) has to state there is a handling fee for returns, otherwise it is not allowed.  So, no in this case there was nothing in the return policy stating a handling fee would be charged for the return, so no, she can't.  Additionally, of course, there are the contractual agreements an Etsy seller makes when selling, but as far as I can see Etsy doesn't say anything other than 'familiarize yourself with the laws in your country and the buyer's country' in reference to returns and nothing at all about 'handling' fees.

All this is quite interesting.  I mean looking at the laws for global sales.  It brings to mind a question, not really related to amd's actual situation, but something related that holds potential here at SMF.  

Which laws apply for the buyer of online materials who has it shipped to another country or even another state from where they live, then is later delivered or picked up by them to be taken to their home country or state?  Is it the laws of their land or the laws of the land of delivery?  And how do they manage disputes regarding returns should they arise?  

If I as a seller have to become familiar with the laws of the country where the buyer lives, but they give me an address in (for example only) Minnesota, and I drive from my home in (remember, example only) Canada to pick up their online order from their friend (or drop box - PO Box, or whatever) then take it home, which consumer protection laws apply?  Or do any apply at this point?  

I wonder, not because I do this myself, but some here have talked about it and I wonder how it effects a need for a return.  I mean, honestly, sometimes returns are necessary.   Now, for me, I have no trouble returning Amazon orders from where ever I want, because I only ever have them shipped within the US and it's all based on the posted return policy.  But how does it affect others who actually do cross country borders to pick up their orders?


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## Saponificarian (Aug 30, 2018)

I do cross country orders as do most people here in my country. Chances of returning items are really really slim. The merchant shipped to a UK/US address because that is where they are, once it crosses the border, I don’t think it’s their problem anymore except you are willing to ship back to the country of origin and do a return from there... this is really really unlikely as Shipping to Nigeria is not cheap, so by the time you add up the cost of shipment to you, the cost of shipping item back to country of origin and then shipping to the merchant, most people just don’t bother. Unless you have a great supplier like Brambleberry who would take your word for it that they sent you a wrong FO, which they have done before and they sent me a replacement, which is why they are still my major supplier for FO. I don’t think any other company would do that. It has only happened once but because they made it right without any hassle, they earned my loyalty and trust.


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## amd (Aug 30, 2018)

I'm not sure @earlene but I think in the CD/US example, because the product was shipped to a US address, any Canadian laws would not apply. The only responsibility we can have as sellers is where we ship to - so if we ship to US and the buyer takes it to Canada, we can only be knowledgeable of where it shipped. A real example of this is a soap I purchased from a German seller. She was not licensed to sell outside of Germany. We were able to work around that by having her ship my soap to my company's Garching office, where one of my engineers brought it back when he came on a business trip. He declared it through customs as a gift - although, really, it was two bars of soap so he probably could have just said it was his for personal use, but I think he was glad he declared it. Apparently it's becoming common for drugs to be smuggled inside soap bars, so the xray tech stopped it in Chicago and the soap package had to be opened up and examined. My coworker was extremely relieved when it was declared "just soap" and I wasn't smuggling drugs into the country.... this time


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## Lin19687 (Aug 30, 2018)

@DeeAnna   I did, however, add them to my short list of fired clients.

Because I have a ton of things on my mind... I don't' understand this.  Is this Online?  How do you 'not' sell to someone ?  Or do you mean for returns ?


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## amd (Aug 30, 2018)

@Lin19687 I believe that DeeAnna does wholesale - in which case, she can pick an choose who she wants to work with. She also does things other than soap - I believe it is leather horsery items (not to be confused with leather hosiery... and I'm pretty sure there's a more correct term for the items she sells).


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## SaltedFig (Aug 30, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> Some companies in the US charge a "restocking fee" that they use to discourage/penalize the customer for making a return. It's not commonly done, but if it's stated clearly up front, it's legal.



Thanks DeeAnna.

"Restocking fee" is a term used here, but it seems associated mostly with drop shippers (and the occasional high volume/low value seller). It's an unpopular charge (and viewed even more negatively than handling fees from what I can tell).

@DeeAnna

It sounds almost like deliberate damage, treating leather like that
(the tack shops around here treat the leather like it's made of gold! I couldn't imagine one of them even dreaming about putting a sticker on a piece!)

Do you use wholesale contracts?


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## penelopejane (Aug 30, 2018)

We have restocking fees. I bought a heated towel rail and when I read the installation instructions I wanted to return it. The bathroom/tile place wanted 20% plus a handling fee as a restocking charge.  It was expensive so 25% (that was the total) was a lot of money. I kept it and never shopped at that shop again. I told them I wouldn’t. I had a whole house - 2 bathrooms and a kitchen to buy stuff for. They missed out. I was, and still am, furious. There was no indication of this charge at time of purchase.

The bad feelings this engenders in a customer is not worth the goodwill for being a little bit flexible. 

I’ve bought stuff for on the US and they accept returns but you pay postage-so it’s never worth it. 

Buying stuff from China and they say - keep what you have and we’ll replace it! No postage.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 30, 2018)

Lin19687 said:


> ...Because I have a ton of things on my mind... I don't' understand this.  Is this Online?  How do you 'not' sell to someone ?  Or do you mean for returns ?



How do I not sell to someone? It's pretty simple -- I just don't sell to them. No one says you have to serve everyone all of the time. A business person had better have good reasons for refusing service, but it's a legitimate thing to do if the reasons are good.

In my business, if a customer has a complaint or problem with their order, I always try to resolve that issue to the best of my ability. If it means accepting someone's return for an exchange or refund, I do so even if I think it's not strictly necessary. If it means adjusting the price of an order to settle a dispute, I do so. And then if I think it's justified, I put them on a list of "fired clients."

If a fired client tries to order again, whether it's face-to-face, online, or whatever, I politely but firmly decline to serve them. I will clearly explain that I am refusing to serve them, but that's all I will say.

I've done this maybe twice in 15 years, so it doesn't happen often. But I will do it again if need be. There's that old saying -- "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."


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## penelopejane (Aug 30, 2018)

I do agree with DeeAnna.  
I used to have a wholesale plant nursery and we dropped customers that were just too difficult to deal with. Life is too short to bash your head against a brick wall.  It was easier for us as we didn't stop by anymore to show them our plant selection (this was before the internet) and when they rang and asked we just said we weren't servicing that area anymore. 

My son just tells customers he no longer wishes to deal with that he thinks they "will be happier with another accountant".  You have to be tough to be in business.  Polite, conciliatory, humourous, generous and kind but still tough.


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## Misschief (Aug 30, 2018)

We've 'divorced' customers as well. There are times you just can't make someone happy no matter what you do. We let them know, as nicely as we can, that they might be happier with another printer. In most cases, they come back in a year or two, realizing that maybe we're not so bad (or expensive), after all.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 31, 2018)

SaltedFig said:


> ...Restocking fee" ... an unpopular charge (and viewed even more negatively than handling fees from what I can tell).



Restocking fees are not used a lot from my experience, and you're right -- it is an unpopular policy.

_"...It sounds almost like deliberate damage, treating leather like that..."_

I'm afraid it was most likely stupidity. 

_"...Do you use wholesale contracts?..."_

It depends. Larger corporate clients, yes, we generally do have a contract specific to that client because they require it. Not that the contract really means much if the customer decides to cancel an order or declare bankruptcy, both of which have happened to me. 

For medium to small wholesale clients, we have a written policy that outlines our terms of service for wholesale. For these clients, we basically work from that policy and their purchase orders.


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## amd (Aug 31, 2018)

Heard back from the customer today. She has decided to keep the soaps and gift them to friends who are able to use animal products. My bet is she got to the post office and decided that paying $4 in shipping to get $10 back wasn't worth it. Either way, I appreciate that she let me know that she'll be keeping the soaps.


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## I_like_melts (Aug 31, 2018)

I would refund. Keep in mind that Etsy doesn't display all details by default, so they may not have expanded the listing to see everything.


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## SaltedFig (Aug 31, 2018)

@amd - she still sounds really nice.

Can you turn her around and offer her a voucher for a free castile soap?
(Obviously at this point, you have no obligation to, but it would be a way of letting her know you DO have vegan soaps, AND you might get two customers out of a gesture like that - your Etsy gal AND her friend )

PS. @DeeAnna, thanks for that. Nothing can be done for the stupidity, unfortunately 
Sorry to hear you've had to go through the bankruptcy process - aside from the inevitable loss it causes your business, it's never nice having to see someone fail (I've only ever seen one deliberate bankruptcy, most are just sad).


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