# Oil properties after saponification



## IndigoWigwam (Nov 14, 2018)

I understand the basics of saponification except for one thing, which I've read different things on. Do the beneficial properties of your oil still remain after saponification (assuming you didn't superfat at all for some reason) ? Or do the beneficial properties only come through the non-saponified fats that remain from superfatting?


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## DeeAnna (Nov 14, 2018)

Soaping fats are called triglycerides (or triacylglycerides) because they contain 3 fatty acid molecules (the "tri" or "triacyl" part of the name) and 1 glycerin molecule (the "glyceride" part). Triglycerides are broken down during saponification into fatty acids and glycerin, and the fatty acids are converted into soap.

The properties that a fat has will no longer exist when the fat is broken down and converted into soap. Even the fat that remains as superfat is very likely changed, because the lye doesn't necessarily break down each fat molecule completely and then move on to the next one. It acts on all of the fat molecules indiscriminately.

For that reason, saponification will not only create soap but also creates diglyceride and monoglyceride fats -- fat molecules that contain only 1 or 2 fatty acids. These changed fats aren't the same as the original triglyceride.

The unsaponifiable content in fats obviously survives saponfication, but there are relatively few fats or waxes that contain large amounts of unsaponifiable content. Avocado, unrefined shea, lanolin, beeswax, jojoba are a few that come to mind. Using a high % of most of these ingredients in soap can create problems with the lather, hardness, and other properties of the soap.

It's my opinion that if a person wants to use a fat in a product that will offer the most benefit to the skin and hair, it's best to use that fat in a lotion or body butter or other leave-on product. The fat will remain unaltered and will remain on the skin long enough to do some good. Soap lather usually remains on the skin for seconds when a person bathes, so even if every beneficial aspect of a fat was also present in the soap, the lather isn't on the skin long enough to make much difference.

My goal for soap is to make soap that is mild and safe on the skin, makes nice lather fairly easily, lasts a reasonable amount of time, keeps well in storage, and smells and looks good. I don't expect it to do any more than that.

** edited for clarity and to add last 2 para **


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## Dean (Nov 14, 2018)

I'm not a pro but have been experimenting a lot with different oils since starting to soaping.  I haven't found any beneficial properties of oils, including when super-fatting after cook.  It seems to all wash off and the SF seems to end up on the shower floor making it slick and scummy.

I have noticed that the different oils do effect lather quality.  My shea soap has super luxurious lather but I don't notice skin benefits after.

 When I run out of all my expensive oils, I think I'll just keep it to a simple recipe with no SF.


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## Dawni (Nov 15, 2018)

How about oils with reported particular skin benefits like grapeseed and neem for acne, avocado for aging, sunflower for shiny hair, etc.... 

People claim to benefit from them, is it a placebo thing? Or maybe it's the repeated use of it that's helping?


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## DeeAnna (Nov 15, 2018)

I haven't studied the scientific articles about neem, so I don't have an opinion about whether the science supports the anecdotes about it.

Pine tar is a another soap ingredient that has a longstanding reputation of having skin benefits, although scientific studies do not support the anecdotes of its benefits.

For a soap with neem or pine tar or any other additive that may have medicinal properties, you want to let the lather stay on the skin or hair for as long as possible -- several minutes at least -- to gain any benefit from these ingredients. I agree that also using the soap over a period of time is another important factor of benefiting from an ingredient in soap, if there are benefits to be gained.

As far as most of the triglyceride fats used in soap -- such as grapeseed, sunflower, avocado, argan, hemp, pumpkin seed, etc -- I honestly do think there's a placebo effect about them.

For example, many beginners think coconut oil is really beneficial for skin and hair, so they extrapolate that line of reasoning and decide coconut oil soap must be just as beneficial. This is easy to disprove just by washing with a 100% coconut oil soap for awhile.

It's harder to dispel the wishful thinking there are unusual benefits to be had from the other triglyceride fats, because there are no obvious downsides if these fats are used in soap. The lack of problems allows people to still believe there are cosmetic or drug benefits for the skin that go above and beyond the soap simply being a decent soap.

I'm open to changing my tune about ingredients if I see there's reason to do so. Lanolin is an example. I now know lanolin adds a thin waxy coating to the skin if added to soap at about 5% ppo AND the soap lather is allowed to stay on the skin for some minutes. In other words, lanolin is one ingredient that has benefits that can carry over into soap under the right conditions.


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## penelopejane (Nov 15, 2018)

I am not the most discerning but I can tell if coconut oil is over 20% in a soap and at least 30% almond, avocado and macadamia oils are distinctly different. I can’t tell the difference between Shea butter and cocoa butter but a lot of people can.
I’ve also noticed that Castor oil at greater than 5% is distinctly sticky.

So although oils may change to fatty acids when saponified they are different and it doesn’t mean they don’t retain some of the beneficial qualities of the oil.

I also believe (since I get a physical reaction to some soap) that what I put on my skin, even if it is washed off, does matter so I use good quality oils and additives that I would eat.


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## IndigoWigwam (Nov 15, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> Soaping fats are called triglycerides (or triacylglycerides) because they contain 3 fatty acid molecules (the "tri" or "triacyl" part of the name) and 1 glycerin molecule (the "glyceride" part). Triglycerides are broken down during saponification into fatty acids and glycerin, and the fatty acids are converted into soap.
> 
> The properties that a fat has will no longer exist when the fat is broken down and converted into soap. Even the fat that remains as superfat is very likely changed, because the lye doesn't necessarily break down each fat molecule completely and then move on to the next one. It acts on all of the fat molecules indiscriminately.
> 
> ...




So why agonize over what oils and butters are used to make soap, and why make soap at all, if the benefits from the oils and butters are destroyed in saponification?


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## Dawni (Nov 15, 2018)

Ah yes, I remember now that that's the reason I let soap sit on my skin for a while, while I do other things in the shower 

@IndigoWigwam, I've not been soaping a lot but I have been using handmade soaps for years and the reason I started was to just stop using synthetic detergents and giving the big companies my money hehe.. 

Agonizing about what oils and butters is a must, if not for the oil properties, at the very least for the look and feel of your finished product otherwise, like @DeeAnna pointed out, you'll get a coconut oil soap to use in the shower instead of in the laundry


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## DeeAnna (Nov 15, 2018)

The properties of the _fatty acids_ certainly do affect the properties of soap, and the varying properties of the _fatty acids_ in soap are what your replies relate to.

The OP is asking about the _fats _and the unsaponifiable content in those _fats_. I quote: _"...Do the *beneficial properties of your oil *still remain after saponification....?" _[bolding is mine]

If you want to take my reply out of this specific context, then so be it, but that is not the issue being raised by the OP and it's not the focus of my replies here in this thread.


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## MadTeddyBear (Nov 15, 2018)

Destroyed is the wrong word for it.  The properties of the soap still depend on what oils/butters are used, but those properties are transformed from what they were as an oil.  Coconut oil, for example, is supposed to be very moisturizing and good for your skin but as soap it's very harsh and drying while also giving the soap a ton of lather and making a very hard bar.

On it's own it's not a bar of soap I'd want to use, at least not without a high superfat.  Adding other oils helps balance that out.  A lot of cooking oils (olive/soybean/canola/peanut) moisturize your skin, but they also reduce lather and can be very soft and if you use too much it can feel greasy.

A great example is shave soap.  The qualities that make a good shave soap would make a terrible hand/body soap, and the recipes for shave soap are usually completely different than most other soaps in order to promote the qualities you want.

As for differences between chemically similar oils like sweet almond/avocado vs olive oil, I haven't yet noticed a difference between them


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## IndigoWigwam (Nov 15, 2018)

MadTeddyBear said:


> Destroyed is the wrong word for it.  The properties of the soap still depend on what oils/butters are used, but those properties are transformed from what they were as an oil.  Coconut oil, for example, is supposed to be very moisturizing and good for your skin but as soap it's very harsh and drying while also giving the soap a ton of lather and making a very hard bar.
> 
> On it's own it's not a bar of soap I'd want to use, at least not without a high superfat.  Adding other oils helps balance that out.  A lot of cooking oils (olive/soybean/canola/peanut) moisturize your skin, but they also reduce lather and can be very soft and if you use too much it can feel greasy.
> 
> ...



So the properties of the oils change in saponification, but benefits are still there, it sounds like? So like, avocado oil is very nourishing, and coconut oil adds to lather. Those things don't get removed in saponification, it sounds like you are saying? That's where I was getting confused. I thought I was reading that these are properties of the oils and fats, but those properties were lost somehow in saponification, which threw everything else I was reading about soaping into chaos in my mind.
@DeeAnna, I am the original poster. I'm just trying to understand. I'm not trying to take anything out of context or be argumentative.


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## Dawni (Nov 15, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> The properties of the _fatty acids_ certainly do affect the properties of soap, and the varying properties of the _fatty acids_ in soap are what your replies relate to.
> 
> The OP is asking about the _fats _and the unsaponifiable content in those _fats_. I quote: _"...Do the *beneficial properties of your oil *still remain after saponification....?" _[bolding is mine]
> 
> If you want to take my reply out of this specific context, then so be it, but that is not the issue being raised by the OP and it's not the focus of my replies here in this thread.



@IndigoWigwam I think DeAnna was referring to me.

No, that wasn't the intention at all. I was merely using your example of coconut oil, as one of the reasons, in my layman's opinion, why anyone should bother about what oils to use.

Apologies for taking it out of context.


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## amd (Nov 15, 2018)

I think I'm a bit confused about what is being asked. When I read the original question, I was interpreting it to mean: _If I choose x oil in my soap for x benefits will it remain in the soap?_ 

A specific example: If choose avocado oil in my soap for the beta carotene, protein, lecithin, fatty acids, and vitamins A, D, and E to help moisturize and protect skin from damaging UV rays and also increase collagen metabolism, will those benefits remain in my soap?



IndigoWigwam said:


> So like, avocado oil is very nourishing, and coconut oil adds to lather. Those things don't get removed in saponification, it sounds like you are saying?



This comment from OP is confusing. Coconut oil *before saponification* does not lather. That is the benefit of using coconut oil in soap, the result of saponification is that coconut oil soap is water soluble and creates lather faster than other oils. However, the comment about avocado oil being nourishing is what I read as a before saponification statement. 

The way that I have approached formulating my own recipes is to look at various charts to see what affects the oil has to the soapmaking process (slows trace, speeds trace, bar hardness, lather performance, etc) - rather than looking at oil properties BEFORE saponification. I haven't been convinced either way if vitamins etc survive the lye monster or not, so I don't choose oils for those properties. This is a chart that I particularly like, it helped me when experimenting with formulas, but it still came down to having to try things in small batches.


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## IndigoWigwam (Nov 15, 2018)

amd said:


> I think I'm a bit confused about what is being asked. When I read the original question, I was interpreting it to mean: _If I choose x oil in my soap for x benefits will it remain in the soap?_
> 
> A specific example: If choose avocado oil in my soap for the beta carotene, protein, lecithin, fatty acids, and vitamins A, D, and E to help moisturize and protect skin from damaging UV rays and also increase collagen metabolism, will those benefits remain in my soap?
> 
> ...




Sorry the OP is confusing. I was confused, so it was hard to formulate the question. I think you guys have answered to where I am starting to understand now. Many thanks. You saying the vitamins from the oils don't transfer into the soap... this is why I was confused. Many posts and tutorials make it sound like the vitamins and other oil properties DO transfer into the soap. But then others say these are lost in the saponification process. A newbie like myself trying to learn from these tutorials and articles gets confused with the conflicting info. Hence the original post. But it sounds like you are saying the lathering, hardness, etc are transferred to the soap along with the amino acids, but the vitamins and some of the other properties do not transfer into the soap. So I'm understanding better (I think).


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## MadTeddyBear (Nov 15, 2018)

IndigoWigwam said:


> So the properties of the oils change in saponification, but benefits are still there, it sounds like? So like, avocado oil is very nourishing, and coconut oil adds to lather. Those things don't get removed in saponification, it sounds like you are saying? That's where I was getting confused. I thought I was reading that these are properties of the oils and fats, but those properties were lost somehow in saponification, which threw everything else I was reading about soaping into chaos in my mind.
> @DeeAnna, I am the original poster. I'm just trying to understand. I'm not trying to take anything out of context or be argumentative.



That's mostly right.  But things like avocado oil being nourishing and coconut oil adding lather are a result of saponification, not something leftover from it.  As @DeeAnna mentioned some oils and butters are also made up of unsaponifiable components that will stay as they are.  I'd recommend doing a search for "Fatty Acids in Soap" and that'll help explain how the chemical makeup of an oil will impact a final bar of soap.

A good way to get started is to try a basic recipe well rounded basic recipe like 33% each of Coconut Oil, Olive Oil, and Palm Oil/Lard/Tallow.  Then look at what you like or don't like about it and adjust the numbers of each until you have something you like.  Once you have a good "control" formula start trying more batches where you replace some or all of one of the oils to see if you notice a difference.  Right now I'm looking to try two batches replacing 35% olive oil in a recipe entirely with avocado oil and sweet almond oil to see what difference those two make.


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## Dean (Nov 15, 2018)

IndigoWigwam said:


> So why agonize over what oils and butters are used to make soap, and why make soap at all, if the benefits from the oils and butters are destroyed in saponification?



I make soap cuz I want mild orange scented soap that does not involve killing animals or causing their extinction due to deforestation (palm).  I cant get that in the store.  Plus I like experimenting and the challenge of making the perfect bar. 

Beyond ethics, I recommend choosing oils based on soap properties:  lather, cleansing (stripping/drying), solubility and hardness.      Google single oil soap test. 

DeeAnna previously provided above info in other threads.  I wasn’t a believer until my experiments concluded with her assertions.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 15, 2018)

IndigoWigwam said:


> So the properties of the oils change in saponification, but benefits are still there, it sounds like? So like, avocado oil is very nourishing, and coconut oil adds to lather. ...



It's entirely possible I'm the one who is misunderstanding your concerns and questions. I'm not trying to be argumentative either. Let me respond to your recent post and see if I can explain my point of view that way --

Coconut oil ... just the oil itself ... doesn't lather at all, so lather is not a benefit of the oil itself. OTOH, coconut oil soap has an abundant bubbly lather. That is a benefit of the soap and it is created by the lauric and myristic acids (fatty acids) supplied by the coconut oil. I can find other fats (palm kernel or babassu being 2 examples) that have similar fatty acids that can create a similar bubbly soap. Or I can even buy just these two fatty acids and make a similar soap. No particular fat is directly and uniquely responsible for creating the benefit of abundant bubbly lather in soap -- it's created by the fatty acids .

You mention that avocado is "nourishing." But what does that word mean, really? I'm really not trying to pick at you, honestly I'm not, but the way it's often used by many people in the bath and beauty world, it is a vague "feel good" word. It doesn't have a clear meaning that is easy to describe, measure, or discuss in concrete terms. If we're going to try to attribute the properties of a particular fat (not just its fatty acids, but the fat itself) to the properties of the soap it makes, we need to be able to clearly identify and measure those properties.

Here's my perception of avocado oil --

When the oil itself is applied to the skin, it feels heavy and somewhat greasy and it doesn't absorb well into my skin, IMO. It does forms a decent barrier to protect skin from being dried out. I have not noticed it has any unusual healing or protective properties that make it stand out from other oils when used on the skin.

Avocado oil in soap creates a mild soap with a dense lather. This mildness and lather I attribute to the high oleic acid content in this oil. Avocado oil is fine to use in soap for adding mildness and dense lather. In fact, I often include it in my soap, but it's not one of my favorites to put in the lotions I make.

I'm not really sure that I can identify any property of avocado oil as the oil alone that directly translates to avocado-oil-as-soap.

How is your perception of avocado different than mine? How can my perception or your perception of this oil possibly contribute to it being described as nourishing? What benefits do you think avocado oil can bring to soap that can be specifically identified as coming from the oil itself?

The chemistry of saponification makes it hard for any properties of the fat itself being preserved in the soap from that fat. Soap is defined more by the fatty acids than by the fats from which the fatty acids come. My perceptions and experience support this.


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## Dawni (Nov 15, 2018)

Dean said:


> Beyond ethics, I recommend choosing oils based on soap properties:  lather, cleansing (stripping/drying), solubility and hardness.      Google single oil soap test.
> 
> DeeAnna previously provided above info in other threads.  I wasn’t a believer until my experiments concluded with her assertions.


Just crawling out of my cave here to show you a link that I had bookmarked, that shows some discussions Dean mentioned regarding lather, hardness, etc.. There are other threads linked there as well. I hope they don't confuse you more lol but they are worth the read.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/ins-iodine.48355/#post-449650


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## Dean (Nov 16, 2018)

Dawni said:


> Just crawling out of my cave here to show you a link that I had bookmarked, that shows some discussions Dean mentioned regarding lather, hardness, etc.. There are other threads linked there as well. I hope they don't confuse you more lol but they are worth the read.
> 
> https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/ins-iodine.48355/#post-449650



Thanks for referencing DeeAnna’s post on INS.  Very informative. Will consider INS in my next batch.  According to research 160 is the target.  In my recipie that = hardness of 54 which is the very tip-top of the range.


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## cmzaha (Nov 16, 2018)

MadTeddyBear said:


> That's mostly right.  But things like avocado oil being nourishing and coconut oil adding lather are a result of saponification, not something leftover from it.  As @DeeAnna mentioned some oils and butters are also made up of unsaponifiable components that will stay as they are.  I'd recommend doing a search for "Fatty Acids in Soap" and that'll help explain how the chemical makeup of an oil will impact a final bar of soap.
> 
> Right now I'm looking to try two batches replacing 35% olive oil in a recipe entirely with avocado oil and sweet almond oil to see what difference those two make.


I would not bother with using expensive Avo at 35%, but that is my opinion. I find 20% lends a very nice feel to soap and does not deter lather, and gives great label appeal. But I can't say it is any better than any other well balanced soap as far as my skin goes. At 100% avocado, the soap is worse than 100% OO soap, absolutely no lather even after a very long cure. My dual lye, vinegar, 100%  avocado will be a year old on 12/31/18 and it still has zero slippery lather, opposed to my 100% Canola HO soap which is very nice as a single oil soap.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 16, 2018)

Dean said:


> Thanks for referencing DeeAnna’s post on INS.  Very informative. Will consider INS in my next batch.  According to research 160 is the target.  In my recipie that = hardness of 54 which is the very tip-top of the range.



INS of 160 is not an ideal to shoot for. I've never advocated that and I've gone to some length on SMF to explain why. Here's an excerpt from a summary I put on my website:

"...Unfortunately, there is a school of thought that says soap recipes need to reach an "ideal" INS value. Robert McDaniels in his book _Essentially Soap_, published 2000, may have been the first to popularize this idea. He suggested an ideal soap recipe should have an INS value of about 160. The problem is that a soap with an INS this high is almost certainly too harsh for many people to use for bathing. And it ignores the success of classic recipes, such as 100% olive oil soap (castile) with a measly INS of 105.

"Anne Watson, in her book _Simple Soapmaking_, drops the bar to a more realistic level; she suggests the INS should fall between 145 to 160. The popular SoapCalc recipe calculator recommends a similar INS range of 136 to 165. These ranges for INS are far more realistic for handmade soap.

"Even so, it does not make sense to focus on INS as the main criteria for designing a soap recipe. For example, a 100% lard recipe and second recipe with a blend of coconut and olive might have the same "ideal" INS. They both might be easy to unmold and might have long shelf lives, but the two soaps will perform quite differently in the bath...."

https://classicbells.com/soap/iodineINS.html


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## Dean (Nov 16, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> INS of 160 is not an ideal to shoot for. I've never advocated that and I've gone to some length on SMF to explain why. Here's an excerpt from a summary I put on my website:
> 
> "...Unfortunately, there is a school of thought that says soap recipes need to reach an "ideal" INS value. Robert McDaniels in his book _Essentially Soap_, published 2000, may have been the first to popularize this idea. He suggested an ideal soap recipe should have an INS value of about 160. The problem is that a soap with an INS this high is almost certainly too harsh for many people to use for bathing. And it ignores the success of classic recipes, such as 100% olive oil soap (castile) with a measly INS of 105.
> 
> ...



For clarification, I got 160 from another online source.  Also, I wouldn’t use INS as the main criteria.  I thought it may be a good indicator for hardness though.  What do you think is the most accurate indicator for hardness, INS or calc’s hardeness property?


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## DeeAnna (Nov 16, 2018)

I don't pay much attention to either INS or the "hardness" number anymore. I don't try to hit any particular target numbers for these properties. I do look at other properties that I think are more useful to me --

I first set the % of coconut oil or other high lauric-myristic fat to control the amount of highly soluble, strongly cleansing soap in the recipe. The "cleansing" number tells me this answer. I keep the lauric + myristic acid content around 10% to 15% as a personal preference. Once those two fatty acids are fixed, there's no point worrying any more about them. 

Stearic and palmitic are the next two fatty acids I think about at that point. The "longevity" number shows me the % of these two fatty acids. Adjust the % of lard/palm/tallow/butters to suit, and then that's done. Most of my recipes have a stearic + palmitic acid content of around 30%.

What's left over is choosing high-oleic fats to provide a moderate oleic acid content. Oleic acid is 40% to 50% for most of my recipes. There's no "number" that correlates to oleic acid content, so I just look at the fatty acid profile.

The linoleic + linolenic acid content is usually is about 5% for the low polyunsaturated fats I normally use for making soap. If I did use a high linoleic fat, I'd keep the linoleic + linolenic content no more than about 15%. 

I haven't been using castor nowadays. But if a person does, once the % of castor oil is set, it's a constant value and can then be ignored when working on the rest of the recipe.


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