# What is a "vegan soap"?



## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 24, 2015)

Something that TopOfMurrayHill said stuck in my mind, then recently someone mentioned not wanting to soap with animal fat and it was mentioned again in a post and it got the wheels in my head slowly chugging along with something and it has led me to the following conclusion:

Depending on the grounds of the veganism, there may be no such thing as a vegan or non-vegan soap.

Or rather, as all oils are made up of fatty acids in certain proportions and these fatty acids are saponified (super fat to one side for now) then you can make the same recipe using raw fatty acids to make the same profile as lard.  

Lard has 1 myristic, 28 palmitic, 13 stearic, 46 oleic, and 6 linoleic.  
Palm has 1 myristic, 44 palmitic, 5 stearic, 39 oleic, and 10 linoleic.  

By that same token, if I made a 0% SF soap with lard, I am left with saponifed fatty acids.  There is no actual animal product left in the soap.  If a vegan does not want to use an animal product, they could use that soap.

This follows the old argument of soap being certified organic or not because, while the NaOH is NOT organic, it is not technically present in the finished product as it reacts with the fats to make the soap.  By that reasoning, there is no lard in a 0% SF lard soap.

So if I HP a 0% SF soap with 20% CO and 80% lard, then add in an SF of CO, I technically have no lard anywhere, as it is all saponified fatty acids.  So for some vegans, there is no animal product in that soap.

Technically..........................


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 24, 2015)

I guess it will come to the actual belief then. Being vegan is not just "not eating or consuming anything that comes from animals". It's a belief that they shouldn't be killed, exploited or made to suffer.
Even though they might not be actual animal parts left in the soap, they died so that the soap could be made. 
Animal was killed and suffered for that soap to be made. 
When you make a lard soap, you need to kill a pig.
For coconut or palm oil soap, you need to harvest trees. 
I'm not vegan or vegetarian so this is just an educated rumbling.  If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.


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## Stacyspy (Apr 24, 2015)

fuzz-juzz said:


> I guess it will come to the actual belief then. Being vegan is not just "not eating or consuming anything that comes from animals". It's a belief that they shouldn't be killed, exploited or made to suffer.
> Even though they might not be actual animal parts left in the soap, they died so that the soap could be made.
> Animal was killed and suffered for that soap to be made.
> When you make a lard soap, you need to kill a pig.
> ...



Coconut oil is from the coconut, not by harvesting the tree, so I'm not sure if that would change the way anyone sees it. I would compare to using a fruit oil. I have a vegan neighbor, and am slowly learning things from her.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 24, 2015)

There are some degrees of veganism, some with the belief that animals should not be killed for food, others that they personally will not eat or use animal products.  Also, if animals are killed anyway for food so no animal dies for the fat, does that then change the view?


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## Relax (Apr 24, 2015)

I am not vegan either.  Maybe it matters where the fat came from (ie. an animal) regardless of whether or not it remained in the finished product.  It was still used to make it.  That would be my guess..?


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 24, 2015)

Stacyspy said:


> Coconut oil is from the coconut, not by harvesting the tree, so I'm not sure if that would change the way anyone sees it. I would compare to using a fruit oil. I have a vegan neighbor, and am slowly learning things from her.



Sorry, but where does the actual coconut come from? Is a coconut nut or a fruit?
And does it matter if they are picked of the tree or if they've fallen of it by itself? 
I'm not sure I get your post?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 24, 2015)

Relax said:


> I am not vegan either.  Maybe it matters where the fat came from (ie. an animal) regardless of whether or not it remains in the finished product.  It was still used to make it.  That would be my guess..?



But then a soap made with our NaOH or KOH can not be organic, as it was made with the man-made lye.

As I said, it was just a chugging of brain wheels, but if someone says "it's a vegan bar as it contains no animal fats and is organic as the lye is reacted and no longer present in the soap" then I see that as somewhat problematic - if a lard based soap "contains" animal fat then a soap made with man-made lye "contains" man-made lye.  If a soap made with man-made lye does not contain man-made lye, then a soap made with lard does not contain lard.

ETA - again, this only helps those vegans who do not want to use an animal product personally


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## Relax (Apr 24, 2015)

Some will argue that NaOH is still present just not active (or that it's been neutralized).


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Apr 24, 2015)

The vegan people I have met will not use or consume anything from an animal.  This includes milk, eggs,  honey,  beeswax,  etc. So even if the animal was not killed for it's fat, it's still a product that comes from an animal, so it is not vegan.


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 24, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> There are some degrees of veganism, some with the belief that animals should not be killed for food, others that they personally will eat or use animal products.  Also, if animals are killed anyway for food so no animal dies for the fat, does that then change the view?



I don't think so. As many refuse to wear leather even though animals were not killed for the actual skin but for meat.
Honey is also big no. Bees are not actually killed, but I guess number of them is harmed in a process. And they are exploited, used or whatever you call it. Isn't honey also actually their vomit or made by it?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 24, 2015)

MagicalMysterySoap said:


> The vegan people I have met will not use or consume anything from an animal.  This includes milk, eggs,  honey,  beeswax,  etc. So even if the animal was not killed for it's fat, it's still a product that comes from an animal, so it is not vegan.



But they are arguably not consuming an animal product.  It WAS an animal product, but it is no longer one.


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## Relax (Apr 24, 2015)

I understand stand your point.  It's a tricky area for me when it comes to explaining the scientific aspect of soapmaking.  I don't think I would be bothered with trying to go into that detail if I sold soap.  I would just list all ingredients (including Sodium Hydroxide) and let them come to their on conclusion.  Samething goes if I used organic ingredients.

ETA:  I don't use lard or tallow to make soap.


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## MagicalMysterySoap (Apr 24, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But they are arguably not consuming an animal product.  It WAS an animal product, but it is no longer one.


They won't use either. Even if it is no longer an animal product, you still used an animal product to create it.  So not vegan.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 24, 2015)

I am no vegan, as people may have guessed, but then would that mean that vegans can't eat vegetables fertilized with animal manure?


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## Stacyspy (Apr 24, 2015)

fuzz-juzz said:


> Sorry, but where does the actual coconut come from? Is a coconut nut or a fruit?
> And does it matter if they are picked of the tree or if they've fallen of it by itself?
> I'm not sure I get your post?



I was just clarifying a bit of a post where it was said the tree had to be harvested to get coconut oil. Botanically, a coconut can be classified as a nut, a fruit or a seed.


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## JBot (Apr 24, 2015)

Technically, TEG, you're correct.  But I don't think most vegans would appreciate the distinction.

And this is why I'm not crazy about soap being labelled "organic."  It's one thing to say that it's made with organic oils or whatever, but calling the whole soap "organic" is rather like claiming, as you said, that a 0% SF soap made with lard no longer contains any animal fats.

I'm not vegan, so I don't know for sure, but it's my understanding that if animal products were used anywhere in the production process, it's a no-no, whether the animals died in the process or not.


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## Stacy (Apr 24, 2015)

MagicalMysterySoap said:


> They won't use either. Even if it is no  longer an animal product, you still used an animal product to create  it.  So not vegan.



I second this. I've known a fair number of vegans/vegetarians at varying  degrees of commitment, but I don't think any of them would be  comfortable using a soap that was made with animal products based on a  technicality like that.



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I am no vegan, as people may have guessed, but then would that mean that vegans can't eat vegetables fertilized with animal manure?



Again I think this comes down to individual views.  If it was on a farm where animals were treated humanely etc etc.

I'm not looking to rekindle anything but as an example, it could be said that harvesting palm oil is very harmful to animals, depending on it's source. Someone who wished to live a vegan lifestyle would have to educate themselves on the issue and decide accordingly, but I don't think you'll get a blanket rule about it.


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## Susie (Apr 24, 2015)

I am going to vote with the "label it correctly, and let the consumer decide" part of this discussion.


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## Chefmom (Apr 24, 2015)

""Botanically speaking, a coconut is a fibrous one-seeded drupe, also known as a dry drupe.  However, when using loose definitions the coconut can be all three, a fruit, a nut and a seed.""

I looked that up 'cause I wasn't sure.  

Anyway.  I was raised by a vegetarian Grandmother and I know a few vegans.  Many are the nice kind who live their lives and don't preach their view and condescend to others.  But many aren't very nice....

A vegan is the classification used for a vegetarian with an extra step.  No animals products of any kind.  Meaning if it came from a bug, an insect, the product of a goat, cow etc ,or the flesh of a slaughtered animal...it's off limits.  No honey, no cheese, no milk, no red food coloring made from bugs, no shellac finished wood made from bugs, no jello desserts made from animals etc.

There are also vegans who stay on top of politics and if a product destroys the habitat of animals in any way...that product is also off limits, like the palm oil controversy.  Destroying forests and removing the habitat of orangutans for palm oil means that many vegans don't want palm oil either.

So saying that no lard is left in soap isn't enough.  You USED the lard in the first place, so that's a no no.

A vegetarian comes in many forms.  Many eat butter, cheese etc.  An animal isn't harmed to make cheese, but vegans say the animal is "exploited" because the calf is removed from it's mother so we evil humans can steal the milk.  Except if you know anything about milking cows...you also know that the average milk cow produces enough milk for 2 1/2 calves.  She has plenty for both.

Some vegetarians eat eggs, some don't.  Some eat fish, some don't.  Etc, etc.  You can go on and on about the different philosophy of vegetarianism.  

Personally I am omnivorous.  I try to do as much as I can to support organics and locally raised meats that respect the animals life before taking it for nourishment.  I also believe in using every part of every animal because wasting any part is disrespectful of that animals sacrifice.  Soap making with lard and tallow follows this path.  It is a great way to use those products...however potato chips and french fries fried in lard and tallow are wonderful!!!  

In the long run, if we don't raise livestock for harvest, then there will be a whole lot of pigs, chickens, cows, goats and sheep roaming around loose to get themselves in trouble.  If we let them roam the streets there will be a whole lot of poo around and that isn't very sanitary.  If we don't live with a symbiotic relationship with these animals they will become extinct because they will honestly have no purpose.  You are not going to turn working farms into petting zoos.

What many vegetarians don't realize...is that a whole lot of animals die in the act of growing those vegetables.  And they are not eaten, they are just slaughtered for being themselves....raiding the crops on farms is a death sentence to many creatures.http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I am no vegan, as people may have guessed, but then would that mean that vegans can't eat vegetables fertilized with animal manure?



There is a philosophy of gardening that does not use outside products or animal products of any kind.  Only green manures that are produced on site.  So yes, there are gardeners that follow the no animal by products rule.  I'm not sure if it has it's own name or anything, but it's a strict version of biodynamic and permaculture gardening.


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## kchaystack (Apr 24, 2015)

Right, a soap is not vegan if any of the things that went into the making it are animal products.  Tussah silk, honey, animal milks.  

It does not matter what is in the final product, but what was used in the whole production process. Some vegans take it to more of an extreme than others. 

I feel often like there are people on this board who are dismissive or a bit condescending about people who want to have a vegetarian (different than vegan I know) soap.  Yeah the whole 'I don't want to smear dead animal on me' is kind of silly.  Your point about the amount of 'dead animal' left after saponification shows this.  Even at a high SF of 10% it just is not that much.

But, if people are veg in their life, and want soap that follows that philosophy, then I don't think it is a bad thing.  Is a vegan recipe 'as good' as a recipe with lard?  Maybe not but that is subjective.  And if John Snow's idea of a good bar is one with no animal products, it is far better than one that does, to him.  It night not have the creamy lather of lard, or be rock hard and white as beef tallow, but it will not be miles above the syndets most use.  

It is not that I think people usually intend to come off that way.  I just think sometimes, they do.  

It is kind of like the palm controversy.  Refusing to use palm at all is not the answer.  Something will be used to replace that palm oil in the production.  That means that some other crop (that might be far more damaging to the environment to cultivate and harvest) will need to be found.  It means that all the families of farmers that grow palm will no longer be able to support themselves - and palm already comes from some of the poorest regions of the world.  So, it is far better to search for ways to source palm from sustainable sources, teach the growers how to take care of their land better so they quit clear cutting, and increase demand for sustainable palm.  I did a lot of research on RSPO and sent letters and talked to a couple people I know associated with Greenpeace.  Different people in that org have different opinions, but people I trust say RSPO is not a bad group of people, and they are working as hard as they can on their mission.  It is not just a cover org made up of corporate shills to pull the wool over our eyes.


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## hmlove1218 (Apr 24, 2015)

Chefmom said:


> What many vegetarians don't realize...is that a whole lot of animals die in the act of growing those vegetables.  And they are not eaten, they are just slaughtered for being themselves....raiding the crops on farms is a death sentence to many creatures.http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



Yes, so technically wouldn't this mean that vegans shouldn't eat commercially grown plants either since most are treated with pesticides to kill off insects? Wouldn't that mean that animals were harmed and exploited for that salad?


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## Chefmom (Apr 24, 2015)

hmlove1218 said:


> Yes, so technically wouldn't this mean that vegans shouldn't eat commercially grown plants either since most are treated with pesticides to kill off insects? Wouldn't that mean that animals were harmed and exploited for that salad?



Sadly....exactly.  If you want to take it to the most extreme, yes.  There is no one right answer to doing no harm yet still existing as a human.

There is a small offset of vegetarianism where they only eat products of plants, nothing that destroys the plant as a whole.  It's okay to pick the fruit from the living plant, yet not okay to cut a lettuce leaf off, since that harms the plant itself.  Apples...good.....carrots....bad.  

There are lots of philosophy's, lots of choices.  Like kchaystack said earlier, if we all stop using palm globally we will put a lot of people who are dependent on palm production out of business....and yet something else will have to step in...and maybe that will be even worse than palm in the first place.

If corn production is more lucrative for the farmer..then he will not grow wheat, and wheat supplies will fall, prices soar...and we will have too much corn.  The year that companies started to demand sunflower oil pushed the prices of wheat up to almost triple what they were the previous year.  Farmers planted what would give them the highest price, sunflowers, and stopped planting wheat.  The price of sunflower seeds jumped to feed my birds, and has been high ever since....and the price of wheat for a couple of years was through the roof as they say.  

It's all about balance...and we are a global world...so that is a lot to balance.


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## LBussy (Apr 24, 2015)

Honey is not vomit, but if you were watching them produce it the physical action might resemble what we understand as vomit more than anything else.  This does not enter their digestive tract per se.  They have a "honey stomach" and a regular foods stomach.  I don't know what the hell they are called but I do remember that from school. 

I know a few people that consider themselves vegan and the cruelty/exploitation/"product" thing is a common theme.  Different people see different things as exploitation or cruelty, and "product" similarly has different meaning.  For instance, fruit is produced by a tree as a result of the work of honey bees.  The justifications/reasoning are only limited by one's personal belief system.

I see where you are going with the "if there's no lye anymore there's no animal" argument and the life-long amateur lawyer in me appreciates it.  But, you can't really color something "blue" and have everyone see it as such.  Therefore, there's no definition save the one that works for the individual.  This is in part why there's no such regulation defining a commercial designation of "vegan." "vegetarian," or "organic."


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 24, 2015)

Good points, all.

It stems as from the idea that, while we look at oils as oils, they are in fact made up of proportions of the same things to various degrees.  If you took lard and cocoa butter, broke them down in the the fatty acids and used it in a soap, there would be little difference.

I find that a jolly interesting idea and a jolly interesting way of looking at our soaps.


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## KristaY (Apr 24, 2015)

Also, the Biblical viewpoint should be considered. I don't use lard because I have many family members that avoid pork products because of their religious beliefs. I also have several vegetarian family members. For these reasons alone, I avoid animal products so all can be soapy satisfied. Personally, I'm an unashamed carnivore and would love to try lard but, sadly, I won't. My understanding is, if I were to use lard or tallow, I'd have to have a completely separate set of soaping tools (bowls, SB, spatulas, molds, etc). One designated to animal fats, one designated to plant fats.

I agree with you, Gent, on the chemistry at the bottom line, but personal belief systems still need to be considered.


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## LBussy (Apr 24, 2015)

KristaY said:


> Also, the Biblical viewpoint should be considered. I don't use lard because I have many family members that avoid pork products because of their religious beliefs. I also have several vegetarian family members. For these reasons alone, I avoid animal products so all can be soapy satisfied. Personally, I'm an unashamed carnivore and would love to try lard but, sadly, I won't. My understanding is, if I were to use lard or tallow, I'd have to have a completely separate set of soaping tools (bowls, SB, spatulas, molds, etc). One designated to animal fats, one designated to plant fats.
> 
> I agree with you, Gent, on the chemistry at the bottom line, but personal belief systems still need to be considered.


Here ya go:  Kosher tallow:

https://www.kolfoods.com/kosher-products/9-Beef-delicacies/default.asp

(price is not for the faint of heart).  The point being you can do kosher and at least not have to have "all separate" stuff for at least the religious beliefs.


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## KristaY (Apr 24, 2015)

Holy cow, Lee! (pun intended, lol) You aren't kidding about the price. $142.99 for 8 lbs is $1.12 per oz! Kosher cows must be costly to feed, water and house. Plus, it's not rendered. Wowsers!


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## LBussy (Apr 24, 2015)

I'm sure you can get it elsewhere, I just did a Google search to see if it was a "thing" and grabbed the first link.


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## Cindy2428 (Apr 24, 2015)

As I continue learning about soapy stuff and meeting, discussing soap with anyone who will listen, it's forced me out of my comfort zone.  We all gravitate to people who share our beliefs, politics etc and the neat thing about handcrafted aficionados is they cross every spectrum.

I'm enjoying this thread - thanks Craig, because the one thing I have consistently learned is vegans whatever level they come from in their beliefs ask the most questions and read EVERYTHING! As a future soapy business owner, (hopefully), I would anticipate this will be a group that could potentially be a big market, and I need more education. This is so far off my personal spectrum that that I can't even put myself in their "shoes" so to speak. 

Discuss on!


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## KristaY (Apr 24, 2015)

Cindy2428 said:


> ....vegans whatever level they come from in their beliefs ask the most questions and read EVERYTHING!


 
You're SO right, Cindy! Not only do they ask a ton of questions, they REALLY pay attention to what you're saying, so having the answers before hand is really important. In my area it's the Master Gardeners that pick apart the ingredients. They want to know what plant oils I use and why, where I get them, what the benefits are, do I avoid GMO's, etc. When I talk with these people I really have to be on my game, lol.


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## SplendorSoaps (Apr 24, 2015)

What a great discussion! 

What I find interesting is that my online customers seem far more "consumed" (pun intended) with the whole vegan thing, and the in-person customers couldn't care less what goes into the bar as long as it smells good!  LOL

I do almost exclusively vegan soaps (just because those are the oils and butters that I like to work with), but use honey in a few soaps and occasionally beeswax in lotion bars. I'm not vegan, but it does seem strange to me that something renewable like honey, that doesn't kill the animal, it still off-limits. Also, if an animal is being killed, it's almost always for meat (at least, here in the U.S.). It seems to me that using lard and tallow would be more of a situation where you wouldn't want to waste the byproduct of slaughter for food. It's not as if animals are being slaughtered in droves just for their fat!  Not to offend any practicing vegans - just my two cents.


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## Dahila (Apr 24, 2015)

fuzz-juzz said:


> I guess it will come to the actual belief then. Being vegan is not just "not eating or consuming anything that comes from animals". It's a belief that they shouldn't be killed, exploited or made to suffer.
> Even though they might not be actual animal parts left in the soap, they died so that the soap could be made.
> Animal was killed and suffered for that soap to be made.
> When you make a lard soap, you need to kill a pig.
> ...


 No one killed the piggy for the fat for soap.  We are using the thingy which would go to waste.  
Vegans no suppose to use honey or beeswax and they do ie lip balms.  
When I was young I was driving my mom crazy being vegan for over two years.  Finally it passed ...... I would never kill an animal for the fat, no one would)


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## kumudini (Apr 24, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> There are some degrees of veganism, some with the belief that animals should not be killed for food, others that they personally will not eat or use animal products.  Also, if animals are killed anyway for food so no animal dies for the fat, does that then change the view?



I'm trying to be vegan. My operative word is cruelty free. I call my self a vegan outside of home for all practical purposes but I do often times have milk delivered to home, the milk comes from a 100% cruelty free organic dairy farm.
I will have no issues soaping with that milk or milk from cruelty free goat farm?
I would say it is impossible to obtain body fat from animals without involving any cruelty.
ETA: honey and beeswax are not off limits for me.
I see what most of you are saying about animals being harmed in order to grow vegetables. I know some people go to extremes, finding out every little detail about how everything came about so they can be sure. My philosophy is simple. I don't want to hurt any animal if I don't need to. I don't want to hurt myself either, I don't want to be trapped in my own veganism cell, unable to escape. I want to live my life, as quietly and peacefully as possible.
I don't think avoiding Palm oil is a very good idea either, I know that a nation depends on it. I'm not the center of universe. Im not going to judge the world based on my own values. Every ones life circumstances are different. That Palm grower only knows his family's hunger. He may not  be educated enough to know the repercussions of his actions. He may not even have the luxury of time to think or the Internet to educate him. Who am I to judge?
Live and let live, be it humans or animals.


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 24, 2015)

Dahila said:


> No one killed the piggy for the fat for soap.  We are using the thingy which would go to waste.
> Vegans no suppose to use honey or beeswax and they do ie lip balms.
> When I was young I was driving my mom crazy being vegan for over two years.  Finally it passed ...... I would never kill an animal for the fat, no one would)



That's kind of taken out of context. 
I meant killed as in general, not just for fat. 
Animal has to die so that we are able to get the fat from it.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (Apr 24, 2015)

I thought vegans were well read too. But recently discovered that many do not know what tallow is, lol. I was shocked. Then I posted on fb and many vegans replied they didn't know what it was either!


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## Dahila (Apr 24, 2015)

fuzz-juzz said:


> That's kind of taken out of context.
> I meant killed as in general, not just for fat.
> Animal has to die so that we are able to get the fat from it.




Animal had to die to feed the hungry,  pepper or carrot had to die to feed the hungry.  
I respect you are vegan.   Show me the fact that veggies do not feel pain when they can not seed naturally due our devouring them.  I would think, they do.     It is food chain. 
Fuzz I am very old woman in the group of older women here.  We have experience and knowledge not always found in the books or internet.  I guess a least half of us were vegan due the hippy movement, and Mahatma Ghandi in India.   We are not bunch of dummies , who kill animals for fat.  
ON this forum people do not tell the ones who make lard or tallow soaps that they kind of murdering the animal.  I do not tell you that soon you will start eating steaks and enjoying it, cause I do not want hurt your feeling.  Respect others, you get respect back.  In case you are wondering about my style of writing , English is my second language )


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## FlybyStardancer (Apr 24, 2015)

KristaY said:


> I don't use lard because I have many family members that avoid pork products because of their religious beliefs. I also have several vegetarian family members. For these reasons alone, I avoid animal products so all can be soapy satisfied. Personally, I'm an unashamed carnivore and would love to try lard but, sadly, I won't.



A very large portion of the friends I give my soaps to are vegetarian, so I can understand it. And I did give in and tried lard...and loved it. It's certainly a headache to make sure that my soaps are labeled so that it's clear which are vegetarian and which aren't.

I'm just lucky that they're satisfied by me washing stuff between uses.  (Heck, one of said vegetarians works at a fast food burger joint... Though to be fair she started working there before she met her now-husband and became vegetarian.)


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## not_ally (Apr 24, 2015)

One of the things that I like about this forum is that we can disagree about (eg) the use of animal fats without calling each other names.  

Dahila, I love your style of writing, I think you do a great job of getting your point across!  V, if I were ever to be a vegan (not in this lifetime, I am afraid) you are the type  I would be.  I guess I just think that as long as there is a market for eating meat products - and really see the contra as being a long time in the future, if ever - it is not a morally improper choice to be as environmentally and socially conscious as possible using as much as we can of it.  ETA:  I have not gotten the idea that you *are* judging, either, just explaining your own choices.


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## fuzz-juzz (Apr 24, 2015)

Dahila said:


> Animal had to die to feed the hungry,  pepper or carrot had to die to feed the hungry.
> I respect you are vegan.   Show me the fact that veggies do not feel pain when they can not seed naturally due our devouring them.  I would think, they do.     It is food chain.
> Fuzz I am very old woman in the group of older women here.  We have experience and knowledge not always found in the books or internet.  I guess a least half of us were vegan due the hippy movement, and Mahatma Ghandi in India.   We are not bunch of dummies , who kill animals for fat.
> ON this forum people do not tell the ones who make lard or tallow soaps that they kind of murdering the animal.  I do not tell you that soon you will start eating steaks and enjoying it, cause I do not want hurt your feeling.  Respect others, you get respect back.  In case you are wondering about my style of writing , English is my second language )



Dahlia, I don't want to be mean to anyone. I just didn't like someone taking what I sad out of context and flipping it around.
I did however realised that English is your second language, mine is too. My original country is not too far from yours.  Maybe our thoughts here are just lost in translation. 
I'm not vegan nor vegetarian. I love my steaks and bacon!
I don't mind animals dying as long as they are killed in humane way and serve their purpose as food.
I respect both sides and I do not judge. I joined this thread just because of general interest. I really don't know were I showed no respect to other's opinion. If I did I apologise.


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 24, 2015)

Not only do we kill the animal, I personally steal their wallet before I take the fat.

/mood lightening

In my case, there's no conflict.  I'm an omnivore who minimizes meat eating (it's been...four days I think since I had any meat or meat products).  But I still eat it.


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## kumudini (Apr 25, 2015)

not_ally said:


> One of the things that I like about this forum is that we can disagree about (eg) the use of animal fats without calling each other names.
> 
> Dahila, I love your style of writing, I think you do a great job of getting your point across!  V, if I were ever to be a vegan (not in this lifetime, I am afraid) you are the type  I would be.  I guess I just think that as long as there is a market for eating meat products - and really see the contra as being a long time in the future, if ever - it is not a morally improper choice to be as environmentally and socially conscious as possible using as much as we can of it.  ETA:  I have not gotten the idea that you *are* judging, either, just explaining your own choices.



not_ally, after reading some threads about lard and tallow use, possibly being more ethical and responsible choice,I have actually considered using animal fat in soap. I just couldn't come to a decision. One can always say that since the animals are anyways being killed for meat we should use any and all by products to make their sacrifice worth while. I wish none were actually sacrificed. I know it's never going to happen, not in a thousand years. Could the meat industry become more humane? I doubt it. Could humans try not to waste the meats and other animal products? They can if they put their mind to, but that's not going to happen either. The whole meat industry and dairy industry and in general the food scene in the world has become such that there is no regard for life other than humans and their pets. It's no longer geared just towards feeding the hungry, has gone way beyond that. It's the 'might is right' kind of attitude. Fat is being used because it could be, I doubt if it was ethical concerns that started it. I have never driven the meat market. And I am not going to now. I used to bake a lot until I realized how those eggs and butter and the dairy cream are produced. So no more. I did finish up all dairy products and eggs that were in my home even after deciding to go vegan. That's I think as far as I could go about not letting things go to waste.
Just the kind of thoughts that go through vegetarian/ vegans minds. I hope I have not crossed any lines here. If I did, my humble request to mods, please delete it.


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## JayJay (Apr 25, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Good points, all.
> 
> It stems as from the idea that, while we look at oils as oils, they are in fact made up of proportions of the same things to various degrees.  If you took lard and cocoa butter, broke them down in the the fatty acids and used it in a soap, there would be little difference.
> 
> I find that a jolly interesting idea and a jolly interesting way of looking at our soaps.



Aren't there unsaponifiables present in oils? I just assumed that whatever extra there is in an oil is what gives it its uniqueness.  This is my non-scientific, and inexperienced conceptualization.  

I used to be a vegetarian with a dairy allergy, which ended up looking a lot like veganism.  But my reasoning was less about avoiding contact with animal products more along the lines of not wanting to support certain "farming" practices. If the animal was raised outside, eating its own natural diet, being allowed to lead a normal life, then I was okay with the idea that it would be killed and eaten. It's the Food chain.  Now that I have more access to what I consider good meat. I am happy to eat it every day. 

Even in my veggie days, I wouldn't have considered lard an issue.  But as you can tell, I was not die hard about avoiding animal products.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 25, 2015)

*What is a &quot;vegan soap&quot;?*

See, now I'm thinking of a piggy liposuction machine to humanely harvest the fat without killing the pig 

I also agree with the quality of life issue. While there is no totally humane way to kill, there are ways that are better than others especially when it follows a great life. A lot of people in my native uk are anti hunting and were appalled that I shot pheasants. They happily ate chicken from the supermarket, though. The pheasants were free roaming in the woods, with a pen that they could get back in to for safety from foxes and so on. Fed regularly on good quality corn (we shot on an organic farm!) and died quickly in their natural environment - the animal's welfare was a priority, as it is for all good hunters. Whereas the chicken is allowed x square meters, might have direct sunlight or not (even free-range certified can be really dodgy in the uk) and then they are sent in to a whirling cacophony of blades, machines and dead animals at the end of their life. Personally, I think the pheasants had the better deal. 

And that is one reason for this thread - vegans can be vegans for many reasons which means that their boundaries in what they allow or not will vary somewhat. 

The unsaponified parts is a very good point. I also wonder about the chemical make up of lard vs cocoa butter - how similar of a product are they?


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 25, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> While there is no totally humane way to kill, there are ways that are better than others



I consider dynamite to be extremely humane. However, it is a bit inconvenient because of all the hunting around to find everything.


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## JayJay (Apr 25, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> See, now I'm thinking of a piggy liposuction machine to humanely harvest the fat without killing the pig
> 
> I also agree with the quality of life issue. While there is no totally humane way to kill, there are ways that are better than others especially when it follows a great life. A lot of people in my native uk are anti hunting and were appalled that I shot pheasants. They happily ate chicken from the supermarket, though. The pheasants were free roaming in the woods, with a pen that they could get back in to for safety from foxes and so on. Fed regularly on good quality corn (we shot on an organic farm!) and died quickly in their natural environment - the animal's welfare was a priority, as it is for all good hunters. Whereas the chicken is allowed x square meters, might have direct sunlight or not (even free-range certified can be really dodgy in the uk) and then they are sent in to a whirling cacophony of blades, machines and dead animals at the end of their life. Personally, I think the pheasants had the better deal.
> 
> ...



I agree with everything you just said. We have a friend who raises animals on his property, just a few at a time. They roam around in the grass and lay out in the sun. It seems like a good life to me. I feel like they have to die anyway. Natural death for animals includes being eaten for food by other animals. We are animals. So I feel like it is natural. Lard and tallow are just just byproducts of the processing. Okay in my book.

*However, *I can see how the idea of ending the cow's life can be upsetting to some people and why they would want no part in using any of their body parts or fat for any reason-- especially not to rub it all over their naked bodies. I totally get that choice. I have known many vegans over my life and they are some of the most conscientious people I have ever met. They want to respect all life and end suffering at the hands of humans. I respect that too. 

I think that sometimes their beliefs are so strong that it becomes visceral. I have known people who get sick at the smell of meat cooking because they are that disgusted by it. I would imagine that the last thing they would want to do is rub animal products into their skin. No amount of reasoning could change the emotional experience of that. If you were to tell me that you could scientifically breakdown feces into fatty acids and put them into a soap, there is no way I would ever try it. I would not care how many people testified to how good the soap feels, or how many time someone said that there is no actual feces left in the soap. Once the word feces is mentioned, I'm out. I would imagine that for some vegans, it's the same thing.

Edit-- love the piggy Lipo idea! The slogan could be, Lean piggies = good soap!  Although if vegans don't appreciate the harvesting of honey from bees, they probably won't like the harvesting of fat from pigs.

I wonder what doctors do with all the human fat that is collected during lipo procedures. Hummm. Soap adventure?

Edit#2. -- bolds and underlines are not pointed at TEG or anyone else in particular. I just want make sure that my points are easily visible to those who are skimming.


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## not_ally (Apr 25, 2015)

JayJay: "I wonder what doctors do with all the human fat that is collected during lipo procedures. Hummm. Soap adventure?"

Two words:  Tyler Durden.  Be very, very careful using soap from those macho types who disappear for as while to come back with bruises and stitches!  Who knows how they calculate SAP values


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## kumudini (Apr 25, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> The unsaponified parts is a very good point. I also wonder about the chemical make up of lard vs cocoa butter - how similar of a product are they?



They have the same fatty acids in different proportions. The soap calc numbers for hardness are different and in tandem the condition numbers are different. 61 for cocoa butter Vs 42 for lard in terms of hardness. So, they are different.And they are different enough that cocoa butter smells like chocolate and the lard, don't know about that one for sure, but may be lard? I don't think it smells like chocolate though.


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## Dahila (Apr 25, 2015)

Fuzz something took place here, no problemo .


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## snappyllama (Apr 25, 2015)

When I was a vegetarian, I wouldn't consume (eat, buy, use) anything made from a product came from a dead animal. So I didn't buy a car with leather seats (the thought icked me out). I read labels like a hawk (many canned beans have meat-broth bases and don’t get me started on the gelatin in many candies).  I certainly wouldn't have bought any soap made from an animal fat (even if that fat wasn't technically an animal fat any more). 

My vegan friends avoided honey, milk, or basically anything that was produced by animals. I did have one public-vegan/private-vegetarian friend who would happily drink milk from her family’s goat. Since she was raising it, she had full confidence in its treatment. I don't think many of my vegan friends would have been bothered by using manure in their gardens, especially if it was sourced from a cruelty-free provider. 

Although there is a lot of overlap between the vegan, organic, non-GMO, no paraben crowds, that Venn diagram isn’t entirely a full circle. Then you’ve got the gluten-free folks and the no-palm folks. And the locally-sourced-only folks. So it’s going to be hard to please *everyone* with a single product. Maybe a 100% organic coconut bar would come the closest if you lived somewhere tropical.

I think it really depends on the reasons someone has for avoiding certain things. For selling soaps labeled as 'vegan', I would just make a good faith effort to provide a product that uses nothing initially created by a non-human animal. Stearic Acid should be the veggie derived one (and label it as such on your product).  Treating people, especially potential customers, with honesty and respect goes a long way.  

Thinking on the Fight Club posts, I’d bet pig lard comes closest to human fat.  We are more closely related to them than cows or goats.


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## valerieinthegallery (Apr 25, 2015)

Vkumudini said:


> not_ally, after reading some threads about lard and tallow use, possibly being more ethical and responsible choice,I have actually considered using animal fat in soap. I just couldn't come to a decision.



This is kind of the same boat I am in. I eat meat, and I don't feel super conflicted about eating it, although I ate a vegan diet for several months a handful of years back. I couldn't sustain it, for a variety of reasons, and now, being a meat eater, I just try to be more conscious of my choices as a meat-eater. 

Having said that, when it comes to soap, I had no interest in using animal fats at all. But reading through the forums and reading some articles on the internet about using lard/tallow (even one really great blog post by a vegetarian as to why SHE uses lard/tallow in her soap!), I decided to try it. I was excited about the prospect of creating nice, white, hard bars and honestly, about the cost reduction in indredients. But I have to say, I felt uneasy. Sometimes we can't describe exactly WHAT we are feeling or WHY we are feeling it, but that doesn't mean we don't feel it. And I think we should pay attention to that. 

If someone wanted to engage me in a philosophical debate about why it's ok to use it, I'd probably lose. Because this isn't about what seems logical or what makes sense in the grand scheme of things. It's about the fact that even though I was able to create beautiful soap with lard, that feeling of uneasiness never left me. (This was only 2 batches with lard). I decided to not try to figure it out or go back and forth and back and forth about it in my head, driving myself nuts. Because the simple truth is, when I make my vegan batches, I don't have that same feeling of uneasiness. So why torture myself about it? 

Sorry to go on and on.. just felt like I could relate a lot to your posts lately, and wanted to share. 

(Having said all that, I have no judgements towards other soapers who use choose to use animal fat.)


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## kumudini (Apr 25, 2015)

Valerie, I think your uneasiness stems from not giving the 'why' a full thought. Since you were not fully convinced, it's possible that you felt like you were exploiting the situation instead of helping it.
May be you don't like putting animal fat on your skin, but it could be that my reasoning is correct in your case. Whatever it is, you are making a choice you are comfortable with. Good for you. The debate in my mind continues, on so many aspects of this issue.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 25, 2015)

valerieinthegallery said:


> ...........even one really great blog post by a vegetarian as to why SHE uses lard/tallow in her soap..............



I would love to read that!  Do you have a link?

For those who eat meat but feel uncomfortable using animal fat, do bear in mind that you get more animal fat on you while cooking at eating meat than you would from using a soap - say 50% of the 5% SF is lard (the saponified soap is no longer an animal fat), so that's 2.5% of what we put on us is still lard, taking pure figures that are of course not 100% accurate, but for illustration work fine.  Then a 100g bar of soap might be good for 21 washes, so that is 4.8g of soap per wash (rounding up) which is 0.12 grams of lard on our bodies.

Even if we take the 50% of the recipe as being lard, that is only 2.4g of lard on our bodies per wash.


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## not_ally (Apr 25, 2015)

EG, I am not sure if this is the link to which Valerie was referring.  But I actually remembered the title of this post read some time ago, so clearly made an impact - and pulled it up, here it is:  

http://www.humblebeeandme.com/why-i-use-lard-or-tallow-in-my-soap-and-why-you-should-too/


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## Lion Of Judah (Apr 25, 2015)

This has been one of the most interesting post in a long long time . every reply was an interesting and enlightening read. i think the whole topic from start to end can be put in a thimble and poured out into a single word........ "Choice". It's the very reason that we are all here making handmade soap as oppose to buying factory brand name soap , choice, the right to chose.  a vegan , vegetarian , organic minded , non-gmo , and the list goes on are all exercising the human right of choice to what they eat , wear, and how they want their society and community around them to reflect that right . and i equally support the other side of the coin, if a person loves animal ingredients in their soap or body care products then more power to them it's their choice. no one loves to have something forced upon them , whether vegan or otherwise , we all like to think we chose what is right for us in our own opinion ....right or wrong . in closing i will say that if you can supply a soap that is vegan friendly then by all means don't hesitate to make it , for you will be affording someone the power of "choice" . 

*this is my short take on this subject


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## tbeck3579 (Apr 25, 2015)

As long as you are afforded the socioeconomic means to continue with a  healthy vegetarian (or vegan) lifestyle I say go for it.  I love veggies too, and if I could figure out how to process enough vegetable oil on the farm... Anyway, being a farm girl I was giggling about the various swine comments.  No way I'm lipo'ing a hog... I want my ham, bacon, and pork chops   Disgusting, I know, but my first thought was about the crazy murderers appearing regularly on the news, the ones who are supplementing pigs diets with homo-sapiens, sigh... What a world...  Pigs will eat almost anything making them an ideal garbage disposal; a living, breathing *recycling machine* on the farm.  Slopping the hogs means taking the slop bucket (a bucket used to throw all of your garbage into) and giving it to the hogs for dinner.  As a side note, chickens will eat almost anything too, and chickens need protein (historically suet is used on the farm), but I digress.  Consider all the things that you couldn't do on the farm if you didn't have the animals, suet, or lard -- surviving would be difficult at best.  The rats would soon take over if we didn't have animals eating garbage, or other animals.  City dwelling, generation X folks may benefit from the knowledge acquired by surviving without a grocery store.  I would give many yuppy vegetarians < 1 year without a grocery store before they ask "now how do you safely and humanely process your meat?"  Let's "face" it (yes, meat has a face), pigs are pigs and humans, as determined by nature, are carnivores;  meat eaters, at the top of the food chain.  BTW, I am extremely sensitive to the suffering of anything.  In fact, I wonder how my roses and trees are feeling after a severe pruning.  I'm wondering if vegetarians realize that plants also react to being sadistically murdered   Okay, I was being a bit of a smart a** here, sorry, but it is true that plants react to violence.  Almost everything alive has a built in survival mechanism to avoid extinction, even things that don't have a face we recognize.  So, the reason for this post; animal lovers like me (and I am!) shouldn't feel guilty if they want a steak for dinner tonight   And that's the rest of the story -- anyone else miss Paul?


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## kumudini (Apr 25, 2015)

Tbeck, I like your post. It has some great points, things that I have often thought about. That's why I say, I don't want to hurt any animal if I don't have to. Yes I'm aware of the scientific proof that plants feel pain. I guess all I can say is that I can see and as a result feel the pain the animals feel, like I could feel the pain of humans where as the pain plants feel, some one has to set up some really sci-fi equipment and measure ion travels etcetera. Not saying it doesn't count, but it kinda doesn't. And in most cases we are not killing the plant, we are just harvesting, and they die their natural death in case of annuals and biennials.
My mind is tired of this non soap discussion.


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## valerieinthegallery (Apr 25, 2015)

Vkumudini said:


> Valerie, I think your uneasiness stems from not giving the 'why' a full thought. Since you were not fully convinced, it's possible that you felt like you were exploiting the situation instead of helping it.
> May be you don't like putting animal fat on your skin, but it could be that my reasoning is correct in your case. Whatever it is, you are making a choice you are comfortable with. Good for you. The debate in my mind continues, on so many aspects of this issue.



I think, for me, it is more about sourcing. I have very easy access to affordable lard from the grocery store, so that is where I went. I can guarantee that the lard in that tub didn't come from happy pigs from a local farm. 

It's less about putting animal fat on my skin, and more about the energy that is in the fat. That sounds way more "hippie" than I am, but do you know what I mean? If I am going to use animal fat in soap, it needs to be "happy fat" or I just don't think I can be down with it.


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## valerieinthegallery (Apr 25, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I would love to read that!  Do you have a link?



Here is the link, Mr. Gentleman - 

http://www.humblebeeandme.com/why-i-use-lard-or-tallow-in-my-soap-and-why-you-should-too/

ETA: Looks like not_ally beat me to it. Thanks!


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## not_ally (Apr 25, 2015)

Val, looks like we are on the same page (pun intended )


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## vyadha (Apr 25, 2015)

Vegan soap is a soap that a vegan would buy.


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## valerieinthegallery (Apr 25, 2015)

vyadha said:


> Vegan soap is a soap that a vegan would buy.



I suppose you are correct, semantically speaking. 

But if a vegan buys a steak to cook for his wife, that doesn't make it vegan steak.


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 25, 2015)

Apropos of Valerie's comment, I keep thinking that a vegan soap is, clearly, a soap made of vegans.

Soylent Green Is Made Of...  oh, well, you know, you've heard it before.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 25, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> Soylent Green Is Made Of...  oh, well, you know, you've heard it before.



[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE[/ame]


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## vyadha (Apr 25, 2015)

valerieinthegallery said:


> I suppose you are correct, semantically speaking.
> 
> But if a vegan buys a steak to cook for his wife, that doesn't make it vegan steak.



That marriage is doomed.


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## Dahila (Apr 25, 2015)

Humblebee is the most resourceful woman and very practical.  I just love her blog


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (Apr 25, 2015)

Dahila said:


> Humblebee is the most resourceful woman and very practical.  I just love her blog



I LOVE her too!


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## Stacy (Apr 26, 2015)

Now I just have to leave this here...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zCO4j4MrxE[/ame]


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