# CP Felted Soap Problem



## Vickywms (Jul 3, 2017)

I recently made 2 batches of coconut oil soap. One was cold processed and one hot processed. After theyhadcured, I felted some of my raw wool around the bars of soap. That worked great but when I sold or gave away my felted soaps, when they used them, the soap got very soft almost gel like. Is there something I can do to
Prevent this?


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## newbie (Jul 3, 2017)

Coconut oil makes for a very soluble soap that will disappear quickly. Was the recipe 100% Coconut oil? The dampness of the wool would allow it to dissolve even more, as the wetness sits on the soap, and if they kept it in a damp environment, like in a soap dish or tray that doesn't drain well, it would be even worse. Did you cure the soap for at least 6 weeks? If it was younger than that, water would not have evaporated out of the bar as much as it could and that would make for a shorter lived and more soluble soap as well. 

I would consider trying a different recipe that is less soluble (assuming this was 100% CO), a full cure before felting and then make sure you instruct people to let the bar dry fully between uses.


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## kchaystack (Jul 3, 2017)

First, if you don't have a clue as to what is going on with this - you probably are not ready to be selling soap.

So you made 100% coconut oil soap?  It would help when you post a question you include your recipe by weight, including alkali and liquid in your lye, and all additives you used.

But assuming it is 100% CO - the problem is probably that CO soap is VERY soluble in water.  You wrapped a bunch of fibers around it that is going to keep the soap very damp.  So it is no surprise it got mushy.

I would say you should use oils that produce less soluble soap for felting - like olive.  

You can also make sure the soaps have a very well draining soapdish to rest on between uses, so as much water as possible drains away and the bar is not setting in water when not in use.


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## cmzaha (Jul 3, 2017)

When I make soaps for felting I use my 45/25% tallow/lard or at least 50% palm oil to make a less soluble soap. Mine do not tend to get mushy if the soap is on a draining soap  dish


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## earlene (Jul 3, 2017)

I suggest you use your own felted soaps before giving away or selling (un-used ones) to see how the soap recipes perform in felting with repeated use.  Some formulas work well while others do not last very well inside wet wool, and as mentioned, break apart and loose their appeal.  If you have not used your creations yourself, you cannot know what the customer can expect.

What you want is a hard recipe that doesn't turn to gel or slime when in use.  So, not high in Olive Oil or other oil that attracts water.  

Also, how thick is your felting?  A thinner layer may be in order. Super thick felting doesn't dry out as well as thinner felting, and in combination with a water-absorbing formula like Castile or high CO soap would make your felted soap into a soggy mess.

P.S.  I have two of my own felted soaps in use in soap dishes right now.  One is great at drying out between uses & I have taken it with me when I travel.  I like this one for scrubbing my feet and it's getting pretty small now, but still quite firm and hard.  The felting is rather thin; the soap is a hard formula.  The other one is a total disappointment; the soap fell apart after a few uses; the felting is really thick, but the soap pieces inside seem to stay wet for days even though I keep it in an environment where all my other soaps dry out without issue.  The second one is that combination of a too soft formula and a too thick felting.


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## Vickywms (Jul 4, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> When I make soaps for felting I use my 45/25% tallow/lard or at least 50% palm oil to make a less soluble soap. Mine do not tend to get mushy if the soap is on a draining soap  dish



I am sorry I did not give percentages. My coconut oil soap is 20% coconut oil and the rest olive oil. I appreciate your response. I did allow the cold processed batch to cure 6 weeks. I am new to soap making and am using it as a way to use my sheeps wool as I raise sheep.


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## newbie (Jul 4, 2017)

I would strongly advise you not to sell your soap if you are new to soap making. As soon as you sell it, you are open to liability for it and that is risky. Even seasoned soap makers will make mistakes but as a person new to soaping, it is even easier. There are all sorts of other issues such as labeling properly etc... not to mention that you don't want to sell a product that simply doesn't work.

With 80% Olive Oil, the soap needs a much much longer cure than 6 weeks to be at its best and OO soap can be very gooey and stringy. 

I agree with Earlene that you should always use your own products to see how they work. Give it away in exchange for honest feedback and constructive criticism but don't sell for at least a year and without a lot of testing and feedback.


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## Vickywms (Jul 4, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> First, if you don't have a clue as to what is going on with this - you probably are not ready to be selling soap.
> 
> So you made 100% coconut oil soap?  It would help when you post a question you include your recipe by weight, including alkali and liquid in your lye, and all additives you used.
> 
> ...



I apologize for not being up to the standards to even ask a question on this forum. I made 24 bars of olive oil soap and 24 bars of 20% coconut oil soap. My sister sold them at her church bazaar to her Sunday school members as a trial. I had already given away 20 bars to my coworkers and they had no issues with the soap. They all loved it. I have not sold any bars that were not felted as that is why I was making the soap to use my wool. In the future, please be more kind and patient with people who are new to the site. No one is in competition with you. How did you learn to make soap through trial and error and help from non judgemental people who were willing to give their advice through their own experiences.


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## newbie (Jul 4, 2017)

New soap makers selling their soap is a very hot button issue on this forum and it usually elicits some very strong warnings to not sell. I agree about always being civil in giving those warnings, but it can be very difficult, even at its most civil, for new soap makers to hear. 

For a number of reasons, some of which I mentioned above, testing two recipes and feedback from 20 bars of one recipe is not going to give you enough information to make your best quality bar. It really does require at least a year of tweaking, testing, feedback, and putting your soap through all sorts of different environments to know that you are making a soap that can stand up to different storage, humidity, heat, etc without degradation of the bar. It can lose its scent, it can go rancid, it can warp and do all sorts of things that would turn off a person in charge of that bar.

Felting to use your wool is a great idea. I just sent out some beautiful dyed rovings to a couple people to use for felting soap or other projects. it's a great use of your resources. Have you dyed any of your wool?

PS. Don't sell soap to people as a trial! People get very unhappy to pay for a product that is in testing.


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## kchaystack (Jul 4, 2017)

Vickywms said:


> I apologize for not being up to the standards to even ask a question on this forum. I made 24 bars of olive oil soap and 24 bars of 20% coconut oil soap. My sister sold them at her church bazaar to her Sunday school members as a trial. I had already given away 20 bars to my coworkers and they had no issues with the soap. They all loved it. I have not sold any bars that were not felted as that is why I was making the soap to use my wool. In the future, please be more kind and patient with people who are new to the site. No one is in competition with you. How did you learn to make soap through trial and error and help from non judgemental people who were willing to give their advice through their own experiences.



My comments were kind and patient.  Trust me, there are far more harsh critics of what you did on this site than me.

Second, I never said you were not up to the standards to ask questions.  I would not have answered if that was the case.

I learned by reading the first 10 pages of the beginners section of this forum, posting my recipes for feedback from forum members, and by practice.  I have been making soap for 2 years and don't sell my soap, nor would I let anyone else sell my soap.

You need to have a much thicker skin if you are going to survive on the internet, my friend.


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## Vickywms (Jul 4, 2017)

Yes, I have dyed my own wool. I shear, wash, card and dye my own wool. I also needle felt, and Nino felt scarves, purses, cat caves, dryer balls, etc. thanks for your response. I just want to use one type of soap that will work with my wool. Since the wool is a natural fiber, I wanted a natural soap to pair it with. It would be easy to just go buy bars of soap to use.


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## newbie (Jul 4, 2017)

Okay, now I have to go look up Nino felt to see what that is. What are dryer balls? I have a friend who has a sheep farm and she uses the felted wool in all sorts of products that she makes. 

It's not a problem to find just one recipe that works with your wool. The issue is all the testing that it takes to find that best recipe, which of course you recently found out by the feedback that your soap was dissolving in the wool. The criticism about selling too soon is directly reflected in that problem; imagine you paid good money for a soap that turned into mush with use. It makes for unhappy people and makes people far less likely to buy from you again in future and perhaps even to again try ANY handmade soap. Keep trying different recipes based on feedback from here and feedback from volunteers until you get what you want in the product.


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## toxikon (Jul 4, 2017)

I think taking a step back from selling would be a good choice. Give yourself time to develop a stellar recipe that performs just how you want it to. Research what different oils bring to your soap and find the perfect recipe to suit your felt. Research and testing is extremely important. 

Olive oil soap needs a very long cure to become good soap - after 6 weeks, it will still turn into a gloppy, gooey mess easily. Some people like to cure their olive oil soap for over a year before using it. Using a high lye concentration, low superfat and dual lye helps a lot. If you don't know any of those terms, you really need to do your research!

People are blunt not because we see you as "competition", but because selling poor-quality soap affects us all. If someone buys one bad bar of handmade soap, they may think that all handmade soap is like that, and will never purchase it again. It can be hard to convince a customer that your soap is good after they've tried the bad stuff. Some people spend years and years perfecting their recipes and people will still not believe that it is good soap because of their bad previous experience. It's frustrating for those who do put in the effort.

It's a common problem in a lot of crafty ventures like soapmaking. Newbies come along and begin selling before they're ready. They charge low prices (because it's a "fun hobby", not a job!) and offer low-quality, untested products. This affects the whole market negatively - the low prices make it more difficult for established crafters to charge what they're worth, and the low-quality products can turn off new customers who haven't tried the good stuff. Then when the newbies lose interest, they've already left a poor impact on the market. Now this doesn't apply to EVERYONE - but it does happen often.


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## Vickywms (Jul 4, 2017)

I have taken a step back and am currently doing the chemical research. I last made soap back in February and that is when I discovered they did not hold up well in felt. I was curious if any other felters have had this issue and what recipe worked better for them. I am not interested in making a variety of soaps. I have enough on my plate with processing my wool. Was just looking for another way to put it to use. Thank you for your quick response. I am continuing to work on it.


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## earlene (Jul 4, 2017)

*Newbie*, dryer balls are felted wool balls like tennis balls, that go into the dryer with wet laundry.  It helps prevent wrinkling and are used instead of fabric softener.

*Vickyms*, your felting skills sound awesome!  My SIL taught me to felt a couple of years ago.  She took a couple of classes and made gloves, slippers, purses, and a variety of other things, including some nino felted items.  I brought the soap; she brought the roving, netting, and some felting needles and we met up at Spring Training (in Arizona), where we dyed the roving, then felted a couple of dozen bars of soap.  Later that trip, I taught my granddaughter to felt soap and together we made several bars she gave as gifts to her teachers and counselors at her school.  She is quite the artist, so she had loads of fun customizing the designs on the felted soap.  Since I had not brought enough soap with me, we actually went out and bought store-bought soap for some of her gift bars.

I have seen some gorgeous felted garments at several shops in the past couple of years, because now I am so interested in the medium.  But I doubt I'll ever get as skilled as you are.  If you care to share, I'd absolutely love to see some photos of your felting projects.  There is a section for posting photos The Photo Gallery, as well as section for Other Crafts & DIY Projects.  Either would be appropriate, I think.  We Love, Love, Love photos of each other's artistic endeavors!

Here's one of my first felted soaps, just because I loved doing it and love the photo.  








I had not taken my own advice about using my own product (felted soap)  before gifting to others.  At least I do know the soap I used for those  first soaps where well cured and remained hard thoughout the life of the  felted bar, because they were from the same batch as the one I  mentioned before that is still hard/firm after several months of usage  (occasional use).  So I lucked out on that score.  Since then I learned  that not all soap will perform so well inside of felting.

My avatar is also a felted soap.  I made the mold using silicone, then made the soap, then felted the soap.  I've actually never used that soap and it hasn't been wet since I did the felting.  But it was so much fun doing everything, including dying the roving!

Here's a better look at my Felted Fish soap.






Welcome to the forum, and please forgive me for hi-jacking your thread.  I just love felting soap and would love to see some photos of yours and some of your other projects.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 4, 2017)

"...I just want to use one type of soap that will work with my wool...."

That would be nice, but the fact is that one type of soap will not work well for every purpose. 

For use when wet felting, you want a soap that dissolves easily in water but doesn't lather a lot. A high oleic soap fits the bill very well. 

All or mostly olive oil is fine, but you can also use high oleic sunflower or HO safflower or any other high oleic oil to make this type of soap. High oleic soaps absorb water quickly, produces a jelly like or syrupy soap that is great for using when wet felting, and makes a low, dense lather. 

Your 20% coconut and 80% olive is a mostly olive soap, not a "coconut soap." It will be a little harsher on your hands if you use it for felting. It will produce more lather due to the extra coconut oil than you might prefer. But soap made with this recipe will dissolve quickly in water, so that is good for felting.

For soap suitable for felting over, the ideal soap is different. Since the felt holds water against the soap, you want to formulate a recipe for soap that is more resistant to absorbing water and less soluble in water. An olive-coconut recipe is a poor choice for this purpose. You want a soap higher in stearic and palmitic acid, such as soaps made with mostly lard, tallow, or palm oil. I'd also use a little bit of coconut for added lather, but I'd avoid a recipe high in oleic acid, because high oleic soaps absorb water very quickly.

As Earlene pointed out, you also want a thin layer of felt on the soap. Just enough to cover the bar sufficiently well, but thin enough to dry as fast as possible.


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## Vickywms (Jul 4, 2017)

Thanks for the advice. When wet felting my scarves and such I use my olive oil soap to felt them. It works great. So just need to find a recipe for a bar that will not readily absorb and hold the water.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 5, 2017)

I agree with the other comments about not selling until you know a lot more about the product. Look at it this way - say somebody picked up a bunch of wool from some place, dyed it and felted some stuff and sold it after very minimal research. Then their products fail - the dye runs off and stains things, the item falls apart, etc. I'd imagine you'd be upset that this person was selling their poorly made products and turning customers off of well-made wool products.

That's how we feel.


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## Vickywms (Jul 5, 2017)

It is fine to feel that way. But I came to this forum for help and feel as though I have been crucified. I am unsubscribing. Sorry to have ruffled feathers.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 5, 2017)

You aren't being crucified. That's quite a dramatic statement.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 5, 2017)

"...I was curious if any other felters have had this issue and what recipe worked better for them...."

No, I have not, because I know enough about designing a soap recipe for a given purpose to avoid that problem. I have already outlined the basic ideas that you would want to consider for a soap recipe that would be good for making wet-felted soap bars.

Soaping is not a "one size fits all" craft any more than felting is. There will be many good recipes that will fit your needs. Which recipe is best for you depends on the ingredients available to you and what your preferences are. Some people won't use palm. Others object to animal fats. For some, the selection of fats available to them is limited. 

I don't have a clue where you live in the world, what soaping fats are available to you, and what you do and don't like in a soap recipe. If you'd like constructive help, it would be nice to know more about these issues.


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## newbie (Jul 5, 2017)

I believe she unsubscribed and left. As I said previously, it is very difficult to some new soapers to hear the advice that they should wait before selling and why.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 5, 2017)

I wondered about that, Newbie. I wanted to make one last effort to help her, just in case she was still around. 

Felting is a cool craft, but there's a learning curve with it too, especially if you want to make felt that is truly beautiful, durable, and long lasting. I see a lot of newbie felters churn out stuff that I'm sure will pill, stretch, and look unsightly after some use, but they're content to dabble, rather than work to improve their game. I'm not a novice felter anymore -- I'm at the point now where I know how much I don't know -- but I'm getting better. I love the few times when my  projects have turned out really nice, rather than merely acceptable. Same with soap.


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## randycoxclemson (Jul 15, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> My comments were kind and patient.  Trust me, there are far more harsh critics of what you did on this site than me.


No, they weren't.  Just because others are even ruder and more brash does not make your statements in any way "kind."  I'm not choosing you to pick on, you just happened to be the most recent example of this type of bad behavior on this site.



> You need to have a much thicker skin if you are going to survive on the internet, my friend.


Keep that in mind.


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## Millie (Jul 15, 2017)

I didn't think his comments were mean. Just telling it like it is. I'm a New Yorker though - it's a tough skin State


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## randycoxclemson (Jul 15, 2017)

Millie said:


> I didn't think his comments were mean. Just telling it like it is. I'm a New Yorker though - it's a tough skin State


I've noticed that a LOT of people here like to lean on the crutch of "telling it like it is" as a means of discarding civility.

I know that several people here are touchy about people selling soap after what they think is too little time in the hobby.  But that should still never, ever supersede being cordial and welcoming.  It's not just this particular questioner getting slammed, I see it every day and that does not speak well of the forum.

It's as though people here have never been on a forum (or have not researched forum discussion for long enough) and should not be in the big leagues of forum talk just yet.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 16, 2017)

How was it rude? If someone is selling, we are going beyond pure cordiality in to a business type of attitude. If a friend makes you a meal and it's not great, you might well be nice and pretend that it was okay. If a chef does it, it's not rude to say "that was not good, you shouldn't be a chef"

If someone (or the op in this case) has issues with a product and can't sort out those issues, it's not rude to point out that this person should not be selling that product. At all.


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## earlene (Jul 16, 2017)

randycoxclemson said:


> I've noticed that a LOT of people here like to lean on the crutch of "telling it like it is" as a means of discarding civility.
> 
> I know that several people here are touchy about people selling soap after what they think is too little time in the hobby.  But that should still never, ever supersede being cordial and welcoming.  It's not just this particular questioner getting slammed, I see it every day and that does not speak well of the forum.
> 
> It's as though people here have never been on a forum (or have not researched forum discussion for long enough) and should not be in the big leagues of forum talk just yet.



*Randycoxclemson*, I have been known for my blunt way of speaking probably most of my life and it has got me into hot water more than once when I had no intention of hurting another's feelings.  I am not making an excuse for the tendency, but pointing out a fact of my own history for background to the forthcoming question.

Not knowing how each person will respond, even face to face, but more so behind the screen, what would you suggest as a more civil (for want of a better word) way to say what we think about selling untested products?  I am surmising a more gentle approach would be your suggestion, but I could be wrong.  Perhaps no response, if our hackles are raised?   

I am serious, because this does come up and I am fairly new to the forum compared to many here already.  And as I said before, I have a history of not pulling punches when it comes to certain things.


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## Kittish (Jul 16, 2017)

Probably pretty much a moot point, but I'll chime in anyhow. I'm still really new to this forum. Been here about a month. And I've already seen it half a dozen times- someone decides they're going to make and sell soap without knowing much of anything really about the process, or what makes a good soap, or what problems can crop up. The extent of their research is usually watching a tutorial video or two. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of tutorial videos for making soap, how hard can it be? Then they show up here asking questions when their second or third batch goes wrong somehow. And yes, they often get crucified for putting their cart before their horses when they start off saying "I just started making and selling soap." I can understand where the more experienced people here are coming from. Poor craftsmanship and hobbyist pricing erodes the market for hand made soap.


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## Millie (Jul 16, 2017)

randycoxclemson said:


> It's as though people here have never been on a forum (or have not researched forum discussion for long enough) and should not be in the big leagues of forum talk just yet.


Is there a forum on foruming? :headbanging:
It is a good idea to address how we react to hot button topics. A diplomatic blend of "welcome/congratulations /don't sell your first batch" would be nice.

All in all, if you intend to school us on forum etiquette, wouldn't it be more appropriate to approach this topic without singling someone out? A new thread on etiquette would get more people involved, and doesn't require anyone to have a thick skin.


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## cherrycoke216 (Jul 16, 2017)

As a customer, this is second worst thing can happen. The first is if a soap that can shed your skin off. Totally DOS and darn gooey slime. I haven't open the package. This happened after its in my hand less than 3 months.




This cost USD $ 5.83 for 50 grams. It's 72% sweet almond oil. Other ingredients are castor oil,coconut oil,palm oil, meadowfoam oil,loofah dew， gardenia EO(???), vetiver, jasmine, wild ginger flower EO (???) , cedarwood, lemon,sandalwood , amyris EO 
This is some " famously great " indie brand in my country. I find her products Like POO POO.
Definitely under well-cured, her other 72% soft oil soap last like a week. I mean a 100 gram bar. Gooey slimy snotty poo poo. Very poorly made. 
Please define the kind of soap or soaper for me. 

She's lucky she did not burn someone else's skin off. It is just a DARN dreaded orange spots ALL OVER her soap!!!!!

ETA: this soap send out right after its cured. It was a "pre-cured sale". So basically it went CRAZY DOS in 3 months after it was made.

By the way, in your kind of forum etiquette, how do a BIG LEAGUE member react to this kind of soap or soaper? Should I just ROLL my EYES and SUCK it UP? I think people here did NOT CRUCIFIED her, nor did anyone sound MEAN and RUDE.
If they're rude, they would not even bother reply their LONG and HELPFUL responses. Or they can even start name-calling...
I'm not trying to troll you, Randy, or the original poster. I'm trying to explain the consequences of newbie selling too soon. Try to feel it in my shoes if you were the customer, how would you react?


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 16, 2017)

Millie said:


> Is there a forum on foruming? :headbanging:


Laughed so hard I almost fell off my rocking chair! Millie, you never cease to amaze and entertain! Gotta love it. I'd stick a heart emoticon in here, but, interestingly, there's not one available.


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## penelopejane (Jul 16, 2017)

Millie said:


> Is there a forum on foruming? :headbanging:
> It is a good idea to address how we react to hot button topics. A diplomatic blend of "welcome/congratulations /don't sell your first batch" would be nice.
> .



Actually the general response to this hot topic has been toned down a lot within the last 12 months. Instead of 8 people chiming in to the post only one or two make the comment. 

The thing is if you aren't told of the consequences how would you know not to sell your second batch unless you are a perfectionist who takes years to get the perfect product?

I think the main reason the OP left was because she wanted a no fail recipe and discovered the she wasn't going to get one instantly (because it's actually not possible in these circumstances) and went elsewhere to get the answer she wanted to hear.

Cherrycoke I hope you let the seller know and got your money back!


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## Saponificarian (Jul 16, 2017)

Newbie here so forgive me in advance. 

Newbie and Earlene answered her questions and advise her not to sell but in a very constructive way. As individuals, we greatly differs in how we communicate and how we receive criticism but I think the onus is on the communicator to communicate criticisms without coming across as either being judgmental or disparaging. 

Sometimes it is difficult to do this when one sees or read a hot bottom issue like this one when the newbie is about to start selling substandard products that's going to ruin years and years of experimenting and costs that other experienced Soapers have put in. In this case it's better to either ignore the poster or respond when you are are feeling chilled after a couple of glasses of Red/white wine. 

Sometimes the soaping bug bites and you just want to make soap and the next thing that comes to mind is selling, please understand it is sometimes the way of a newbie. That is why we need experienced Soapers to say 'earth to newbie' but in such a way that the Poster doesn't go into depression or never soap again or felt they were rushed out of the forum. 

We are different and we react differently when we feel people are being harsh with us. We either want to fight or flight!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 16, 2017)

I have actually taken to just adding them to the ignore list and being done with it. Regardless of how it is pointed out, someone will always get bent out of shape about it. It's not usually the regular contributors, mainly the very occasional posters who come out just for those threads. Which is a shame, that the people who complain about how the tone of the forum makes them post rarely has resulted in me posting less then avoid their misguided ire. 

Even worse, by ignoring these people (I refuse to help someone who will sell regardless of the fact that they shouldn't be and so ignoring them saves me having to read their posts at all) and their threads, it might mean that someone else asks a question that I don't answer where my input might have helped them. But as the "white knights of the order of the bad business" have waged their crusade well, it's the only real option for me.


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## kchaystack (Jul 16, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I have actually taken to just adding them to the ignore list and being done with it. Regardless of how it is pointed out, someone will always get bent out of shape about it. It's not usually the regular contributors, mainly the very occasional posters who come out just for those threads. Which is a shame, that the people who complain about how the tone of the forum makes them post rarely has resulted in me posting less then avoid their misguided ire.



I think this is how I am going to handle things from now on. I'll just go into lurk mode, and not offend people any more.


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## dibbles (Jul 16, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> I think this is how I am going to handle things from now on. I'll just go into lurk mode, and not offend people any more.



:cry:


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## dibbles (Jul 16, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> First, if you don't have a clue as to what is going on with this - you probably are not ready to be selling soap.
> 
> So you made 100% coconut oil soap?  It would help when you post a question you include your recipe by weight, including alkali and liquid in your lye, and all additives you used.
> 
> ...



This is where written communication gets difficult. Read KC's post through as if it was spoken in a condensing, confrontational, mean spirited tone. Then read it through again in a tone of a normal conversation, offering constructive criticism with good intentions for helping. Unfortunately for the OP, she chose to view it as the former. 

KC, for what it's worth, I find your contributions helpful.


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## penelopejane (Jul 16, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> I think this is how I am going to handle things from now on. I'll just go into lurk mode, and not offend people any more.



I think that's very disappointing. Just because one person got offended doesn't mean another person would have. Some people really want to learn. The OP wanted a quick fix to her problem. She didn't want to learn. Your post was direct and to the point, not rude. Please continue to contribute. TEG isn't lurking he's just choosing who he'll respond to. 

I also think the forum gets a few trolls. First time posters who come in to drop a hot button post to get a reaction. I avoid answering those. Maybe we should have a code phrase like: "fish swim upstream" when we spot one.


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## Kittish (Jul 16, 2017)

I'm kind of liking that people here are so willing to be bang-up-front with 'You are not ready to sell your soap. Here's what else you need to know.' Problem is, the way our society is set up, we're all trained to expect and even demand instant gratification. Everybody wants everything rightnowrightthisinstant. And they don't want to do any work for it, like researching the process they'll be using. I have absolutely no problem with telling people with that attitude off. Only reason I haven't jumped on any of them I've seen show up after I found this forum is that I _am_ still an absolute newbie. If they're serious about wanting to learn about making soap, including how to sell it, they can pull their heads out of their a***s and actually learn something. The knowledge is here, for those with the will to utilize it.


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## newbie (Jul 16, 2017)

I don't really have anything new to add. I needed to comment that the DOS soap is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING because I've never seen anything like that.


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## Zany_in_CO (Jul 16, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> I think this is how I am going to handle things from now on. I'll just go into lurk mode, and not offend people any more.


I think that's where many newbies end up...


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## randycoxclemson (Jul 16, 2017)

I'm not advocating that people avoid replying to newbie statements about selling soap.  I think those new soapers need to know that they should go slow, just as they need to know the basics of making soap, or need to know about certain fatty acids being better for felted soaps and all the other wisdom people here have to impart.

I was just saying that a nicer tone in doing that will keep new people here longer.  And then maybe they can start to impart wisdom back to the community.  You never can tell.

To the person who said they have always had a rough time getting their point across without sounding blunt, oh do I ever know that feeling. 

And about that nasty soap, that's hideous and I shouldn't have looked at it after dinner.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 17, 2017)

The point being, Randy - kc thought that he wasn't being offensive. If he had made it sound even nicer then to him it might well have sounded far too over the top and possibly comically fawning. Even then, there is no guarantee that the op wouldn't bounce off with an offended flick of the tail. 

Many people here have "been on the receiving end" if this bluntness and yet are still here contributing and enjoying. If they can, do we really need to coddle every single diva that stamps a foot and holds their breath?


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## Cindy2428 (Jul 17, 2017)

If you haven't seen this, I think it's appropriate.....

Micah Taylor - The Millennial Song
https://www.facebook.com/troy.hooper.790/videos/vb.1841360253/10204603450606492/?type=2&theater


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## dixiedragon (Jul 17, 2017)

kchaystack said:


> I think this is how I am going to handle things from now on. I'll just go into lurk mode, and not offend people any more.


 
I hope you don't intend to withdraw from the forum! Randy has posted a whopping 51 times. I do not consider him/her to be a valued member of this forum. I do consider you to be a valued member of this forum with thoughtful and interesting things to contribute.

Also, I think it's just flat-out common sense that if you've successfully made something a few times doesn't mean you're ready to go into business!


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## cmzaha (Jul 17, 2017)

Apparently many of these people that complain about this forum have not visited The Dish which is the other site I am a member of. You want upfront say it as it is people go there. Like this forum it has a wealth of information especially with lotions but never ask for someone to give you a recipe...no I never did that, but had a member think it was her responsibility to police our website and inform me x and x was wrong. Instead of leaving I simply informed her she was not hired to police my website and keep her comments to herself. It solved the problem. I do not visit there often because they are geared to other B&B products more so than soap. But I received tremendous help with lotion making. Yes it can take a "thick skin" and that goes for almost any forum. If we baby everyone they will not learn and we will soaps being sold like the dossy mush posted above. Hopefully it was okay to mention the other site name.


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## dixiedragon (Jul 17, 2017)

Some people take any sort of criticism as mean. They expect to post and receive nothing but praise and accolades.


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## Cellador (Jul 17, 2017)

I am new here, but one of things that I like about this forum is that everyone seems willing to help, even if helping means saying things that someone might not want to hear. I think it would be worse to seek advice and have no responses because everyone was afraid of being offensive.

I have joined a couple of forums in the past, and this is one of the nicest I've seen. I have yet to see someone start cursing or making insults, which is, sadly, very common in most communities.


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## penelopejane (Jul 17, 2017)

I visit the dish but have yet to make a contribution.


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## AKjulz (Jul 17, 2017)

I wish I had been a part of a forum like this when I started soaping years ago.  I was one of those naive individuals that listened to her not so knowledgeable mentor and sold WAY too soon.  I think it's vital that newbies be told that much research and time be committed before presenting to the public.  I was recently corrected on this forum  regarding something I'm doing wrong and instead of getting offended and pissed off because they were blunt, I took the correction and am learning more and fixing my mistake. So thanks to all those wise and knowledgeable individuals out there!


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## Susie (Jul 17, 2017)

randycoxclemson said:


> No, they weren't.  Just because others are even ruder and more brash does not make your statements in any way "kind."  I'm not choosing you to pick on, you just happened to be the most recent example of this type of bad behavior on this site.
> 
> 
> Keep that in mind.



Just because he did not pat them on the hand and tell them that everything will turn out OK, does not mean that he is rude.  Telling people the truth is its own kindness.  ESPECIALLY if it keeps someone from selling bad soap.



kchaystack said:


> I think this is how I am going to handle things from now on. I'll just go into lurk mode, and not offend people any more.



No, sir, please do not.  You are a valid, valued contributor to this forum.  You have helped more people than you have offended, by far.  

And thank goodness I was not at the center of one firestorm, for a nice change.

I really hate that people take constructive criticism so badly.


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## cmzaha (Jul 18, 2017)

^^^totally agree with Susie. LOL, you slipping Susie?


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## cherrycoke216 (Jul 18, 2017)

PenelopeJane, she's moving on to an B&B business, and her website stop updating, I doubt I'll get my money back.

On a second thought, though I think most of us would not like diva or cry baby, but what if it's a depressed person or have mental illness, or with some disability? Would our members' constructive criticism make them more depressed or go cuckoo, or feel unaccepted by society? Then Randy might actually make a point. Though I don't know if a more neutral tone or dial down a bit will make a difference to the response of these people mentioned above. But I think the society might tolerate them MORE  (than same behavior from average Joe or Jane ) and be EVEN MORE GENTLE.

Just a random thought after reading Saponificarian's post.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jul 18, 2017)

I can't (or won't) base my interactions with people on the possibility that they are mentally ill or anything in that direction, unless they state that up front and then it is not an assumption any more.  That said, if someone is in a position that they can't take the sort of example here, how would they react if someone contacted them after buying dodgy products?  Surely a little bit of a struggle here would be better than that sort of stress?


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## dixiedragon (Jul 18, 2017)

cherrycoke216 said:


> PenelopeJane, she's moving on to an B&B business, and her website stop updating, I doubt I'll get my money back.
> 
> On a second thought, though I think most of us would not like diva or cry baby, but what if it's a depressed person or have mental illness, or with some disability? Would our members' constructive criticism make them more depressed or go cuckoo, or feel unaccepted by society? Then Randy might actually make a point. Though I don't know if a more neutral tone or dial down a bit will make a difference to the response of these people mentioned above. But I think the society might tolerate them MORE (than same behavior from average Joe or Jane ) and be EVEN MORE GENTLE.
> 
> Just a random thought after reading Saponificarian's post.


 
I find this to be pretty ridiculous, TBH. It's like that reasoning that you should be tolerant of rude, nasty people b/c they might have a mental illness. Seriously, if somebody is so severely mentally ill that a person on the internet telling them, "You don't know enough about soap to be a seller" pushes them to do something drastic ... then they were going to do something drastic anyway. 

I also don't see how the post could have been MORE neutral. Sure, it could have been sugar-coated more, but to what purpose? It was polite, informative and gave logical reasons.


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## JuliaNegusuk (Aug 17, 2017)

One thing that has surprised me (perhaps because I am an ex civil servant and it is in my blood) is that no-one has mentioned the law.  I don't know where the felter person came from but if in the UK or Europe at least - I don't know about anywhere else, there is no way you can legally sell soap without going through pure bureaucratic hell (quite rightly too, you can hurt someone if you get it wrong - soggy soap is just one potential issue.)  As someone who is currently going through this process and trying to do everything legally right, I am quite shocked that people think they can just make a potentially dangerous product from a recipe on-line and bung it on the market.  I've been making soap for friends and relatives for about 4 years and working on my final recipes for about 8 months, (which probably isn't enough but I've been working to a deadline - but at least I've got a bit of experience behind me).  It's taken me weeks and months just to get to grips with certification, labelling, weights and measures, insurance etc, etc.  And I've given away tons of freebies to test the product, you definitely can't charge.  Cost an arm and a leg.  Soon to embark on the task of uploading all my soap stuff onto the EU database.  

Wish me luck - I'll need it.


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## dixiedragon (Aug 17, 2017)

Julia - good luck!

I skimmed the original posters first few posts, but not all of them, so I don't see any mention of where she is from? (I assume she b/c I assume Vicky is her name). Most of us are US located, so if she is selling soap as soap here in the US, then she doesn't need to get any kind of official testing done. It's a good idea to get insurance, but not required. If she is selling soap as a beauty product or as medicine - meaning she is making medical or beauty claims for the soap - then that's a whole different ball game.


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 17, 2017)

JuliaNegusuk said:


> It's taken me weeks and months just to get to grips with certification, labelling, weights and measures, insurance etc, etc.  And I've given away tons of freebies to test the product, you definitely can't charge.  Cost an arm and a leg.  Soon to embark on the task of uploading all my soap stuff onto the EU database.
> 
> Wish me luck - I'll need it.


Good luck, Julia! 

Since a good number of us are hobbyists, JMHO (Just My Humble Opinion), it's a good thing we don't have to go through all you are going through in order to pursue our hobby, and we can sell handcrafted items to friends, relatives, farmers markets, local events, etc, to recoop some of the costs of pursuing that hobby. Although there are a few laws in place to protect the consumer, it is through online groups and forums like SMF that we learn (hopefully) to be self-regulating.

Certification similar to what you've outlined is available through a sort of guild, the HCSC (Handcrafted Soaps & Cosmetics) for people to  get a solid grounding in the business aspect, then go on to market their products to retail and wholesale customers. They are the few at the upper echelon that are able to actually make a living selling handmade bath and body products.

The U.S. Congress is currently committed to passing a law similar to what you have in place in the EU. We hobbyists have a small but strong lobby that seeks to make a distinction between "cottage industries" vs. a large manufacturing operation so that we may continue to sell bath & body products on a local level without having to jump through all the hoops you are facing. For many of us, including me, it would be cost prohibitive.

So, I have to ask, once certified, where are you planning on selling your wares? Just curious... 

Wishing you all the best!   :bunny:​


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## JuliaNegusuk (Aug 17, 2017)

Hi Zany in CO. That is a very good question to which I have a totally stupid answer. I am doing it all voluntarily for a charity I volunteer for (actually one day a week on their children's farm, mostly mucking out and feeding the animals). I took in some soap as gifts for people a couple of years ago and they have been bending my ear ever since because they want to make it for their "shop" - actually a shed with a painted board with the word "shop" written on it which is open from 11am till 4pm two days a year on their farm open days, or whenever someone turns up from the village to buy eggs! I said no, absolutely no, not under any circumstances it's not worth it (and it isn't, they will sell one bar a week). Here I am two years later paying for the recipes to be certified and the costs of the first batch. (Certification costs about £230 for 8 or 9 soaps based on one basic recipe, the chemists just review your ingredients, quantities etc and presumably know from experience if it looks right, they don't actually test the product. Then you have to reproduce it exactly.) Then I shall train them up on how to make the soap and they are on their own. I appreciate this probably sounds risky but in the EU, you have each recipe certified and then you stick to it, or pay an admin fee to change it, so they will be just reproducing the recipes I have designed for them. I've written them exact ingredients lists and checklists and good practice guides to help them. They will have to get insurance. They will have to keep records of each batch, all the batch numbers and sources for all the ingredients for each batch, label them properly in accordance with EU regulation, weigh them etc in line with UK or EU laws, the list goes on. When they pass out from the weight of bureaucracy as it overwhelms them I shall say " I told you so, but you wouldn't listen".  I doubt they'll make any money at all.
Actually I have rather enjoyed the challenge. Ironically if I wanted to sell the same recipes myself eg at a craft fair, I would have to get them certified all over again in my own name, even though the recipes won't have changed. Crazy eh!?! But I have to say, it isn't an expensive business to become a soap maker in the EU, probably one of the more accessible businesses for the small crafter or hobbyist, but the bureaucracy is quite breath taking and as an ex civil servant I know a lot about bureaucracy. You certainly have to be determined. The really stupid thing is that you don't need any training or experience! Surely it would make more sense to have to pass a course which allows you to then create recipes rather than get each one certified which does rather stultify creativity. But that would actually probably cost more.  But the process applies equally, as far as I can see, to international cosmetic companies and Joe or Josephine Bloggs making 8 bars of soap per batch in their kitchen at home and flogging it on a charity stall.:-?


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## Zany_in_CO (Aug 17, 2017)

Oh Julia! I don't know whether to laugh or cry! God bless your weary soul for the all good work and caring on behalf of the farm. I'm thinking your sojourn would make an excellent BBC TV series -- especially if you were the head writer! I'd watch it for sure!

ETA: Thank you for your lengthy response. It's a wonderful read.


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## divinegoddessoaps17 (Aug 17, 2017)

Amazing!   I had been making soaps for about 2 years before I started selling them.  Just for friends & family back then.  Did I make mistakes? Of course I did.  Selling to the public is a different issue!  No way can you make mistakes!  Back then I had a B&M NewAge shop when I started selling my soaps.  Never had a problem - because I was prepared.   I just made plain bars then - not like now!  Experience, knowledge and perseverance (?) is what it takes to sell to the public.  I have no problems selling to the public now.  I do fall & spring festivals every year.  My clients are very particular (its the venues I pick- a lot of homesteaders, women's clubs, etc) about what is in the soaps, and you better have the answers!  Because they will ask!  If you not experienced - how can you answer them?


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