# My soap burns



## Sauboon (Apr 12, 2015)

Hi, 

I've been making soap for the past 5 years. My customers say the soap is nice except it burns their below the waist area. I use Thesage.com lye calc. The soap feels really nice on the skin but that burning is not easy to deal with. I've tried superfatting however I notice the soap gets sticky after about six months if I put too much oil or extra butters. Does anyone have any suggestions. It's really affecting my business. I use coconut oil, olive oil, palm oil, sunflower and soy.


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## happyshopper (Apr 12, 2015)

Is it more than one customer who is describing this? If so, I don't mean to be rude but you are selling soap that burns!!

I live in the uk and to sell soap here you have to have a safety assessment (I believe it is the same for all of the EU). This costs a lot of money so means that soap making will always only be a hobby for me.

Whilst in some ways I am annoyed as I will never be at a stage where I could make a few extra pounds from something I am hoping to continue to enjoy, it does mean on the other side of it as a customer I would never be able to purchase any thing that would be used on mine or my family's skin that hasn't been safety assessed to avoid the issue you describe.

I do hope you manage to resolve your issue for both your and your customer's sake.


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## hmlove1218 (Apr 12, 2015)

What percentage of FO/EO are you using ppo? What is your SF level? How long has this complaint been going on? Have you checked the accuracy of your scale since it started? Are you zap testing each batch for safety?


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## Sauboon (Apr 12, 2015)

hmlove1218 said:


> What percentage of FO/EO are you using ppo? What is your SF level? How long has this complaint been going on? Have you checked the accuracy of your scale since it started? Are you zap testing each batch for safety?



Yes, I've checked the accuracy. It's not all the customers. only a small amount. I do zap test if I do hot processed. SF was 5%.


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## kchaystack (Apr 12, 2015)

As hmlove asked, what are the essential oils/fragrance oils in the soap, and at what % are you adding them.  Peppermint, eucalyptus, clove, and a few others might irritate skin.

But you really need to post a full recipe with all additives so the experts on the board can chime in.


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## Sauboon (Apr 12, 2015)

*My soap irritates*

Not all the customers say this. Only a few but I want to correct this. Many are very satisfied. If it were all I would not make soap. I am not selling it in stores. I don't mean to be rude but I find it strange that you are not aware that many people sell soap that may not have a safety assessment. Etsy, farmers markets,  etc. Maybe I shouldn't use the word burn. Rather it can irritate sensitive areas.








happyshopper said:


> Is it more than one customer who is describing this? If so, I don't mean to be rude but you are selling soap that burns!!
> 
> I live in the uk and to sell soap here you have to have a safety assessment (I believe it is the same for all of the EU). This costs a lot of money so means that soap making will always only be a hobby for me.
> 
> ...


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

I instantly thought it was the EOs.  Please do post the whole recipe, including amounts and which EOs, and any additives.

Some ladies are more sensitive to products "there" than others.  Even plain soap may be too irritating.


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## lionprincess00 (Apr 12, 2015)

Ok. This isn't scientific or anything but...
I stopped using regular soap because of this exact issue. It burned, in places, bad. I started using dove (doesn't it have a lower Ph?) Anyway I used sensitive skin dove and never had another problem.

Introduce using my own cp soap. 

Some bother me (like 2 I've made) and most don't for the most part, but they can. If I clean super fast I don't have a problem, but if not it does burn a little. 

My opinion is the fragrances are the culprit, or honestly the Ph of soap. I may just be a tad sensitive to it in a region. I have no other answers other than that. Advice? Don't clean as though your a doctor going for surgery, clean thoroughly but quickly. Rise completely! Any leftover residue will start to irritate. I should probably make a scent free soap. That would solve my issue of fragrance vs Ph levels.
And just saw Susie...yes, I think I am just one of those sensitive ladies, and I dont think I'm alone.

Edit to say I understand what you're saying. Burning as it feels like burning, but in essence it's irritating the area. Again, not so uncommon imo.


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## Sonya-m (Apr 12, 2015)

Sauboon said:


> I don't mean to be rude but I find it strange that you are not aware that many people sell soap that may not have a safety assessment. Etsy, farmers markets,  etc. Maybe I shouldn't use the word burn. Rather it can irritate sensitive areas.




They may well do but that doesn't mean it's ok to. Here in the UK you shouldn't be selling without a safety assessment


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## boyago (Apr 12, 2015)

Sauboon said:


> Not all the customers say this. Only a few but I want to correct this. Many are very satisfied. If it were all I would not make soap. I am not selling it in stores. I don't mean to be rude but I find it strange that you are not aware that many people sell soap that may not have a safety assessment. Etsy, farmers markets,  etc. Maybe I shouldn't use the word burn. Rather it can irritate sensitive areas.



Are you in the states?  Happy Shopper is posting from the UK, all EU countries are much stricter with soap sales than elsewhere.  Have you had this feedback on all your soaps or a few in particular?

My first thought was that it could be your EO/FO as well.


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## happyshopper (Apr 12, 2015)

Yes I must admit I was very surprised that in other countries you are allowed to sell soap without a safety certificate (I am sure you would also be surprised about some of the practices over here compared to yours)

I get what you mean now when you say irritate rather than burn! Any soap can do this if you have sensitive skin, whether handmade or shop brought. Certainly if its not all customers saying this, its just those with sensitive skin having an issue. To be fair to you, they would already know they have sensitive skin so should not really be purchasing any kind of soap that contains fragrance/additives, or soap that isn't specifically sold for sensitive skin.

I am lucky my skin is like ox hide, nothing seems to effect it


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 12, 2015)

I think that the point being made with the Safety Assessment in the EU is that there is always a final check that nothing in the recipe is known to cause issues - you wouldn't be able to get a recipe signed off with 10% clove EO, for example.  But there is nothing to stop someone in countries with less regulation selling a soap with it.  Whether or not more or less regulation is a good thing or a bad thing is a discussion for elsewhere!

As for the burning issue (pun most certainly intended!) I also think it could be EO, but agree that the whole recipe is needed - if it was the EO I would expect more people to react to it, so it might well be something that seems innocent enough but that can cause issues.  Maybe some people are fine with a certain % of CO in general, it's borderline maybe, but in certain places causes the issue.  Until we have the full info, it's a little bit hard to say.


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## Dorymae (Apr 12, 2015)

Okay down to brass tacks. I am willing to bet you are using an EO or blend that contains one or more of the following, peppermint, spearmint, wintergreen, really anything in the mint family, menthol, eucalyptus and or cinnamon. 

All of these need to be used in smaller percentages than the average do to compounds within the EO that make our skin feel hot or cool. If used in large amounts they will cause a tingling or burning sensation in the private areas.  

Even if you are using small amount, some people are simply more sensitive to the EO than others. 

One more thing, you said you zap test when you HP. Why are you not Zap testing for CP?  If you don't you could get lye heavy soap but that would effect everyone.


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## cmzaha (Apr 12, 2015)

When I use the EO's that Dorymae mentioned above I put a warning on my label, that they can cause burning/ tingling in sensitive areas. I am one that cannot use handmade soap other than m&p on certain areas including my face. My face actually gets no soap 90% of the time. It does not matter if the soap is 1 week old, 1 yr old fragranced, non fragranced, low or high cleansing number, high or low superfat. In other words, nether regions get washed with m&p. I really think it is the ph, as far as my face goes I have just never used soap on it. It gets either Cetaphil or water. I have had a few people ask if soap can bother certain areas and I tell them yep. Soap is not for everyone as much as many soapmakers like to think it is. If it is just a couple of people I would guess they are sensitive, it is it a lot of customers I would rethink my recipe/recipes and not sell until it is figured out.


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## dixiedragon (Apr 12, 2015)

I agree regarding posting your recipe, additives, etc.

also, how long do you let the soap age?

It's also possible that these customers are just sensitive to something in particular - FOs, EOs, coconut oil, etc. Honestly, it's not a great idea for ladies to soap up our lady parts - messes with the pH.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 12, 2015)

Apropos to a separate discussion we are having, I am curious as to the percentage of soy and sunflower you are using.

Lye soap stings the eyes because it has a high pH compared to say a detergent bar. However, soaping with a lot of linoleic oils will make the soap even more alkaline. I haven't specifically heard of that hurting the nether regions, but I imagine it could.

Your description of the soap getting sticky after 6 months with a bigger lye discount also makes me wonder about the proportion of these oils.


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## Sauboon (Apr 12, 2015)

*My soap irritates*

Thank you so much for understanding. I will take your advice.




lionprincess00 said:


> Ok. This isn't scientific or anything but...
> I stopped using regular soap because of this exact issue. It burned, in places, bad. I started using dove (doesn't it have a lower Ph?) Anyway I used sensitive skin dove and never had another problem.
> 
> Introduce using my own cp soap.
> ...


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## Sauboon (Apr 12, 2015)

Thank you for your concern




dixiedragon said:


> I agree regarding posting your recipe, additives, etc.
> 
> also, how long do you let the soap age?
> 
> It's also possible that these customers are just sensitive to something in particular - FOs, EOs, coconut oil, etc. Honestly, it's not a great idea for ladies to soap up our lady parts - messes with the pH.


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## Sauboon (Apr 12, 2015)

2 months to age. And I think you are right. It may be the essential oils


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

lionprincess00, you know I am a nurse, right?  So, when I tell you that most women would be wise to use nothing but water on mucous membranes due to pH disruption, I am not just saying that to be a rebel, right?  I am certain that I am going to get a chorus of nay-sayers here, but truly gals, that is like a self cleaning oven.  Rinsing is OK, but leave everything else not prescribed by a doctor out.

(Mods-if you think this is over the line, please just delete it.  I debated long and hard on the best wording, so if I did not succeed, just get rid of it.)


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 12, 2015)

Sauboon said:


> 2 months to age. And I think you are right. It may be the essential oils



It may be - but it also may not be.  What mix are you using?  Any other additives?


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## JayJay (Apr 12, 2015)

I have heard MANY girls and women over the years say that soap burns their privates sometimes. The impression that I got was that the same bar of soap can sometimes burn and sometimes not burn. I always assumed it had to do with the condition (acute irritation) of the skin at the time at it is being used, how much is being used, how it is applied (scrubbing vs wiping). Sometimes other issues like infections, or friction can make a person more likely to burn when anything acidic or alkaline is applied. 

I think it would be a good idea to keep that in mind when you are checking out some of the other factors that people are mentioning (like EO, pH, and lye).  I have heard medical professionals say that the only bar soap (store bought)  that works for sensitive female parts is dove (which isn't real soap).  So if you double check everything and you are sure that it's safe, then maybe there is nothing wrong with your soap. Maybe their region is too sensitive for soap.


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 12, 2015)

I don't use any soap down there, I never have. Its just too irritating and causes problems for me. I would bet that they are just sensitive overall as it sounds like it is only a few people and you are testing it. I have very sensitive skin and even 10% coconut oil recipes irritate me. I used to make a 30% CO recipe. It literally started making my skin peel on my hands when I was felting it. Some people have super tough skin others, not!


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 12, 2015)

JayJay makes sense about the VaJayJay.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

:clap::clap:

I was waiting for it.


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 12, 2015)

Even gentlemen can experience a slight burning sensation Down There depending on many factors.  Fortunately, this has never been a problem for me.  Certainly people with very sensitive skin are more likely to have an issue.

Both ladies and gentlemen with hemorrhoid problems may experience some burning when using a high-pH soap to wash their bums during a flare up.  That was a problem my father had.


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## gemsupthepoley (Apr 12, 2015)

Looking back, I used up scraps of my first 2 soaps and made a HP soap with West Indies Bay and Lime and I added powdered cinnamon.  It did cause a little bit burny burny feeling on ..............well.............

I don't use it there now!!!!!!!!!!!  I don't think they even advise using plain soap on those bits,


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> Even gentlemen can experience a slight burning sensation Down There depending on many factors.  Fortunately, this has never been a problem for me.  Certainly people with very sensitive skin are more likely to have an issue.
> 
> Both ladies and gentlemen with hemorrhoid problems may experience some burning when using a high-pH soap to wash their bums during a flare up.  That was a problem my father had.



Very common problem, that.  Indeed, even washes intended for that very use can be too harsh on hemorrhoids.


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## cmzaha (Apr 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> lionprincess00, you know I am a nurse, right? So, when I tell you that most women would be wise to use nothing but water on mucous membranes due to pH disruption, I am not just saying that to be a rebel, right? I am certain that I am going to get a chorus of nay-sayers here, but truly gals, that is like a self cleaning oven. Rinsing is OK, but leave everything else not prescribed by a doctor out.
> 
> (Mods-if you think this is over the line, please just delete it. I debated long and hard on the best wording, so if I did not succeed, just get rid of it.)


LOL, I think you put it well. I do also tend to use just water or as mentioned above our lower ph m&p base. What I did not mention before was I only use the m&p a couple time per week on mucus membrane and my face. Outside of my eczema problems, my skin for, my age, is in very good condition


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## lenarenee (Apr 12, 2015)

cmzaha said:


> When I use the EO's that Dorymae mentioned above I put a warning on my label, that they can cause burning/ tingling in sensitive areas. I am one that cannot use handmade soap other than m&p on certain areas including my face. My face actually gets no soap 90% of the time. It does not matter if the soap is 1 week old, 1 yr old fragranced, non fragranced, low or high cleansing number, high or low superfat. In other words, nether regions get washed with m&p. I really think it is the ph, as far as my face goes I have just never used soap on it. It gets either Cetaphil or water. I have had a few people ask if soap can bother certain areas and I tell them yep. Soap is not for everyone as much as many soapmakers like to think it is. If it is just a couple of people I would guess they are sensitive, it is it a lot of customers I would rethink my recipe/recipes and not sell until it is figured out.


 
Agreed! Some people just cannot use cp soap no matter whether its scented or not.


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## lionprincess00 (Apr 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> lionprincess00, you know I am a nurse, right?  So, when I tell you that most women would be wise to use nothing but water on mucous membranes due to pH disruption, I am not just saying that to be a rebel, right?  I am certain that I am going to get a chorus of nay-sayers here, but truly gals, that is like a self cleaning oven.  Rinsing is OK, but leave everything else not prescribed by a doctor out.
> 
> (Mods-if you think this is over the line, please just delete it.  I debated long and hard on the best wording, so if I did not succeed, just get rid of it.)



I've had more kids than most, and I totally understand the Ph balance of the nether regions is disrupted by many things, pregnancy for example. Many different things disrupt the Ph balance, so using an alkaline substance most certainly would too. 
The Ph balance disruption causes discomfort, burning, ittitation, can create infections (yeast for ex). 

So you are completely correct in that over cleaning with "things" most certainly disrupt the perfect balance we were born with. 

I still use soap, MY soap only, and use it sparingly. We are a nation (at least here in the US) of showers every day, twice a day sometimes, hair wash every day, super soap, antibacterial eberything.
This isn't good for our skin, our balance of Ph "there", nor our hair (with regards to washing). I am not "a hippy child", but I see the need to over use of cleaning _everything_, a fallacy here. It is not necessary and can cause more problems in the long run.


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## JayJay (Apr 12, 2015)

topofmurrayhill said:


> JayJay makes sense about the VaJayJay.
> 
> (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)





Susie said:


> I was waiting for it.




...  Wow.... My name is Jayjay.  roblem::Kitten Love:  Time for a name change.  

I'm glad you made the joke this early in my soap making life. You just prevented me from embarrassment in the future.  I can picture it 10 years from now.  I am standing in front of my new exclusive, high brow bath and body store, cutting the ribbon under a sign reading "Exclusively JayJay's" :shock:

Edit:  Seriously though, if anyone wants to message me on how to change my name, that would be great.


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## JayJay (Apr 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> lionprincess00, you know I am a nurse, right?  So, when I tell you that most women would be wise to use nothing but water on mucous membranes due to pH disruption, I am not just saying that to be a rebel, right?  I am certain that I am going to get a chorus of nay-sayers here, but truly gals, that is like a self cleaning oven.  Rinsing is OK, but leave everything else not prescribed by a doctor out.
> 
> (Mods-if you think this is over the line, please just delete it.  I debated long and hard on the best wording, so if I did not succeed, just get rid of it.)



Sorry, I didn't see this post before I posted my comment earlier.  Sorry for restating (not as well) this idea.  I wasn't trying to plagiarize, i promise.


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## JBot (Apr 12, 2015)

I realize it's not like this for everybody, but using my own soap has dramatically improved things for my "lady bits."  I used to have chronic problems with irritation, infections, etc.  I have had ZERO issues since I switched.  Also no more UTIs, which I used to get constantly.  (I only clean the "outside," since it's my understanding that it's not a good idea to use ANYTHING on the "inside" unless it's a prescription.)

I use it on my face, too, and my skin has never looked better.  Any my hair.  I should note that even though soap is a wash-off product, and its primary purpose is to clean rather than to moisturize, I really think that superfatting my HP with meadowfoam oil makes a difference.  (Maybe because it remains unsaponified?  I do agree that it would probably be a waste of an expensive oil otherwise.)  Even when the SF oil is the only difference between two batches, the one with meadowfoam oil has a richer, silkier lather, and my skin feels terrific.  My rosacea has almost disappeared since I started using nothing but the meadowfoam-SF soap on my face.

Maybe it has something to do with my particular body chemistry?  Maybe my natural pH is too low, and using my own soap helps to correct it?  Who knows.  All I care about is that it WORKS!


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## cmzaha (Apr 12, 2015)

JBot said:


> I realize it's not like this for everybody, but using my own soap has dramatically improved things for my "lady bits." I used to have chronic problems with irritation, infections, etc. I have had ZERO issues since I switched. Also no more UTIs, which I used to get constantly. (I only clean the "outside," since it's my understanding that it's not a good idea to use ANYTHING on the "inside" unless it's a prescription.)
> 
> I use it on my face, too, and my skin has never looked better. Any my hair. I should note that even though soap is a wash-off product, and its primary purpose is to clean rather than to moisturize, I really think that superfatting my HP with meadowfoam oil makes a difference. (Maybe because it remains unsaponified? I do agree that it would probably be a waste of an expensive oil otherwise.) Even when the SF oil is the only difference between two batches, the one with meadowfoam oil has a richer, silkier lather, and my skin feels terrific. My rosacea has almost disappeared since I started using nothing but the meadowfoam-SF soap on my face.
> 
> Maybe it has something to do with my particular body chemistry? Maybe my natural pH is too low, and using my own soap helps to correct it? Who knows. All I care about is that it WORKS!


You could spritz the meadowfoam on after your bath or shower then you are not rinsing if off down the drain:razz:


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 12, 2015)

JBot said:


> I realize it's not like this for everybody, but using my own soap has dramatically improved things for my "lady bits."  I used to have chronic problems with irritation, infections, etc.



Having no lady bits, I can't speak to it.  But thanks for sharing and all.  

I notice that my skin--normally very acidic to the point that most colognes warp on me and sour--has changed.  Softer, smoother, clearer, and at least a little pH shifted.

I can now wear earthy scented colognes and even Navy Lime, which before smelled a bit like Navy Decaying Lime.  Any floral is still out, but guys aren't big on florals anyway.  I like a wood scent.


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## JBot (Apr 12, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> Having no lady bits, I can't speak to it.  But thanks for sharing and all.



Nice, right?  LOL!  I hesitated before posting that, thinking it might be TMI, but I figured since we're already talking about it and nobody is being unnecessarily graphic or crude, might as well go ahead and over-share!


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## jules92207 (Apr 12, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It may be - but it also may not be.  What mix are you using?  Any other additives?



I just want to add here coconut oil in higher percentages gives me the same burning sensation as well. So while it may be the eo's I'm gonna agree with the gent that there could be other factors at play too. It would be good to get a full picture of your recipe.


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## Jstar (Apr 13, 2015)

Im thinking EO's as well and sensitivity, but with the lack of the recipe there's really no way to tell...did the OP intend to respond to any of those questions?


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## Susie (Apr 13, 2015)

JayJay said:


> Sorry, I didn't see this post before I posted my comment earlier.  Sorry for restating (not as well) this idea.  I wasn't trying to plagiarize, i promise.



Don't worry about it.  I think when folks read the same info from more than one source, it reinforces the idea/info.


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## Reesedog914 (Apr 13, 2015)

There was a comment saying that soap needed to " pass safety inspection" to be sold. I disagree. This barrier to entry would stop so many soap makers and cause such a hassle. Buyer beware should be the norm. If somebody sells bad soap the market will correct the issue ( by not buying it ). I am an economics degree holder and i know the consequences to such barriers of entry. Just another hassle that puts major corporations in the advantage.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 13, 2015)

Reesedog914 said:


> There was a comment saying that soap needed to " pass safety inspection" to be sold. I disagree. This barrier to entry would stop so many soap makers and cause such a hassle. Buyer beware should be the norm. If somebody sells bad soap the market will correct the issue ( by not buying it ). I am an economics degree holder and i know the consequences to such barriers of entry. Just another hassle that puts major corporations in the advantage.


 
And yet it doesn't apply to all industry - try producing a car and see what sort of hoops you need to jump through.  I imagine even over there in the US of A you need some sort of approval before producing car, which plays in to the hands of the corporations.

Saying "Buyer beware" and "the market will correct" doesn't help those people who have to buy a dangerous soap in order for other people to know that it is bad and it shouldn't be bought.

People in the EU do indeed sell handmade cosmetics, so the entry is not a barrier for people who are intent on doing it, but it does mean that the market is not flooded with charletans and fools who want to chase the quick buck with no experience.


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## shunt2011 (Apr 13, 2015)

I agree with TEG.  Stating "buyer beware" and "the market will correct itself" is not the way to enter into this.  Customers that have purchased less than favorable handmade soap will hesitate buying it again from anyone.  It's so frustrating to hear someone say "I've bought it before and it did x, y or z to my skin and I'll never try it again.   

This is why so many of us believe in making, testing and tweaking recipes for a year is favorable. Too many are now entering the markets with very little experience and have no idea how their soaps will be in 3, 6 or 12 months.  They just think they are going to go out and make a millions.


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## Saponista (Apr 13, 2015)

I saw someone on another forum asking how to make their 80% coconut oil baby soap that they were already selling less harsh!!!!! It makes me quite glad I live in a country with more regulations to be honest.


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## Dorymae (Apr 13, 2015)

I have to respectfully disagree. I believe the market will most certainly correct a bad soap maker and I certainly DO NOT think we need any more regulation especially on soap. 

Using soap is not inherently dangerous. How many people do you know that have had REAL harm come to them from using soap. ( not taking about allergies because that can happen to anyone at anytime.) I'm not sure of the statistics but my guess is that it doesn't happen often. 

I don't want the government sticking it's extremely large nose everywhere. Now I would agree we should stop sticking it into other countries business as well but that is another story. 

Bottom line is the government can not really keep anyone safe, all they can do is give you solid legal recourse if you are harmed. They can try to keep you safe with regulations, but considering how many people already make wild claims, I don't think it would do much good. 

Let the government spend its resources on something useful, like trying to balance budgets, that seems to really push their abilities.


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## yadonm (Apr 13, 2015)

Just a thought...a lot of people have soybean allergies.


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## happyshopper (Apr 13, 2015)

It is not very easy for a buyer to be aware when purchasing soap.

With other handmade items, a dress for example, a buyer would clearly be able to see the difference between someone who had been sewing a week and someone who had been sewing for years. With soap however it is not easy to tell, unless you are a soap maker yourself (and then you wouldn't be buying it) one bar of soap looks like another, one soap could be perfect the other could be heavy on lye and made with the wrong combination of oils - to the untrained eye I doubt there would be much difference by looking at them.


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## not_ally (Apr 13, 2015)

The thing about soap is that anyone can make it.  And some of those youtube videos are frigging scary.  I can't find the link now, but I remember watching (with horrified fascination) one from a woman who - apparently in the same space - made soap without any safety/antisceptic measures, flung everything about with great abandon, and performed some kind of surgical procedure on her cat.  

Dory, I agree that there is some over-regulation on soap, but I also think that there need to be some safe-keeping measures (especially good labeling for people who have severe allergies to well-known allergans) before it can be sold, I know people who have really bad reactions to certain ingredients.


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## Susie (Apr 13, 2015)

With all due respect, not_ally, if people with known allergies buys a bar of soap without a list of ingredients, it is not the seller's fault.  It is the buyer's fault.  They should know better, and be pro-active enough to take care of themselves.


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## not_ally (Apr 13, 2015)

I agree, to some extent, Susie.  But the thing is that people who are walking around in a farmer's market are not the most informed of consumers (even if they should be). You are a soapmaker who has done a lot of research on allergans.  I am one who had done less.  I think buyers have often done almost zero, they just buy based on the way things look and smell.  Wise? Of course not.  But I sort of think the onus is on us, as the ones that have done that research, to give them the heads up.  Not to mention good for liability reasons.  I admit that I am very cautious about that stuff.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 13, 2015)

There was someone a while back who asked a seller if the soap contained a certain oil, as they knew they had an allergy. The seller said no, it doesn't. It actually DID contain the oil! The person had what I take was a (thankfully!) mild reaction that could have been worse


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## Reesedog914 (Apr 20, 2015)

Comparing the automotive industry to soap making is apples and oranges. As one user stated before, little harm comes from bad bar of soap besides the person not buying from that supplier anymore. There is no need for government intervention here. Stop relying on government to solve all your problems.


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## Saponista (Apr 20, 2015)

Little harm? If you call having your skin burned off from a lye heavy bar or having a horrific reaction from way too much essential oil then I suppose I agree with you.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 20, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> There was someone a while back who asked a seller if the soap contained a certain oil, as they knew they had an allergy. The seller said no, it doesn't. It actually DID contain the oil! The person had what I take was a (thankfully!) mild reaction that could have been worse





Reesedog914 said:


> Comparing the automotive industry to soap making is apples and oranges. As one user stated before, little harm comes from bad bar of soap besides the person not buying from that supplier anymore. There is no need for government intervention here. Stop relying on government to solve all your problems.




I don't like to quote myself, but in the real world example above, someone could have easily been seriously hurt.  It is not too hard to imagine this oil being peanut oil and someone then having a reaction to it that results in a great deal of harm.

While in theory having people themselves regulate the market, I think it falls over on the fact that people are people - look at how well companies like DoTerra and so on were doing before the government finally got involved and how many other companies out there are doing very well even though the product is at very best shoddy.

I know that the US citizens generally take a dim view of The Feds getting involved, but you also have to admit that the current state of things is not working either.  Maybe something in between.  

It will be interesting to see what comes from the US/EU talks on free markets, as I don't see the EU making cosmetics as open as it is in the US, nor can I imagine the US tightening it to match our regulations.


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## LBussy (Apr 20, 2015)

I think, as much as I have some very good arguments and want to make them, that we're bordering on politics here.  Dad always told me that was a no-no.


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 20, 2015)

About the only requirement I'd like to see is requiring accurate labeling with ingredients.  Most of us do this already.  I do this already and I don't sell--but what if I give a bar with coconut oil to somebody who's allergic to it?  Not a good idea, and I certainly don't want to cause anybody harm.

Some of my bars are given to friends of friends, who I don't know directly, or given at the yearly Yankee Swap we have with the family (and dates of family, and friends, and people who just kind of wandered in...)

Plus stuff does get around.  My mom's given bars I've given her to others who admired them.  Far from being annoyed at the re-gifting, I just tell her to ask for feedback.  

Accurate labeling is an absolute requirement as far as I'm concerned.


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## JBot (Apr 20, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> About the only requirement I'd like to see is requiring accurate labeling with ingredients.  Most of us do this already.  I do this already and I don't sell--but what if I give a bar with coconut oil to somebody who's allergic to it?  Not a good idea, and I certainly don't want to cause anybody harm.
> 
> Some of my bars are given to friends of friends, who I don't know directly, or given at the yearly Yankee Swap we have with the family (and dates of family, and friends, and people who just kind of wandered in...)
> 
> ...



Amen to that.  I had a friend who had a reaction to the mango butter in a bar I gave her, even though it WAS labeled, and even though she knew she was allergic to mango, papaya, and banana.  She checked the label as soon as her skin started welting.  She probably wouldn't have used it again anyway, but still. . .


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 20, 2015)

JBot said:


> Amen to that.  I had a friend who had a reaction to the mango butter in a bar I gave her, even though it WAS labeled, and even though she knew she was allergic to mango, papaya, and banana.  She checked the label as soon as her skin started welting.  She probably wouldn't have used it again anyway, but still. . .



Peace of mind is not to be underestimated.    She knew what she was reacting to, and what was likely to happen--and whether or not she needed medical attention immediately, which it doesn't seem she did.

All that because you had a label on the soap that she could look at and say, "Oh, yeah, mango butter.  I'll itch for a couple hours.  Where's the Benadryl?  And does Hallmark make a 'Thanks for the allergic reaction, jerk!' card?"


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## kchaystack (Apr 20, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> All that because you had a label on the soap that she could look at and say, "Oh, yeah, mango butter.  I'll itch for a couple hours.  Where's the Benadryl?  And does Hallmark make a 'Thanks for the allergic reaction, jerk!' card?"



If not, you can always make your own.  

I made the mistake of looking at making my own soap boxes...  and caught the card making bug!  :O


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## Reesedog914 (Apr 20, 2015)

I can agree with labeling of what you have put in your soap. ( ingredients )

Any other type of regulation -- no. The government does not need to be involved in every facet of your life. The market will create solutions to problems in you just give it a chance. ( and sometimes maybe government intervention IS necessary ). Consider the militias in mexico who have risen up to fight the cartels because there was no police force to protect them. Who pays these militias? ( nobody ). There risks in life, shall we make a law saying you cannot go outside?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 20, 2015)

So you're saying that unpaid militia are better than the police actually doing their jobs?  That is your reasoning for keeping the status quo where companies hide the preservative in the scent and then claim that their products have no preservative(note, it seems the main one has given this up!), or where EO companies claim that they can cure ebola?  The train of thought that, if someone else gets hurt, at least it isn't me and I won't buy it if someone else has had a bad reaction?  Where any one can grab a recipe online, shove it all in a mould in a slap-dash fashion and then head off to the market with an arm full of unlabeled garbage?

Quite frankly, you can keep that kind of freedom over there in the land of the free - I like knowing that the people selling cosmetics here have checks in place to ensure a safe product and, in the rare case of an issue, a reliable method of finding the company and any other batches that might also be an issue.


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 20, 2015)

kchaystack said:


> If not, you can always make your own.
> 
> I made the mistake of looking at making my own soap boxes...  and caught the card making bug!  :O



I've done card-making, but can never resist the impulse to put my own disclaimer on the back. 

"No trees were harmed to make this card, but two baby saplings were clubbed to death."


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## Reesedog914 (Apr 20, 2015)

Keep in mind that it is the police who murdered innocent men in mexico. If you like the gov telling you when, where, how then that's your peragative. I come from the land of the free.


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## LBussy (Apr 20, 2015)

Yep. I was right.

So was dad.


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## JBot (Apr 21, 2015)

Maybe we should talk about sex instead?


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## Jstar (Apr 21, 2015)

> I come from the land of the free.


Free? :eh: Free what? If its a rock and its free, then I want it!! *snort*

Seriously, Im from Tx and Im trying desperately not to talk about the gov..I dont like it, but Im kinda stuck with it..I'd much prefer to talk about bubbles. {I do all my gov talking on my FB page so they can see it lol}


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## LBussy (Apr 21, 2015)

It's rare when I can keep myself from talking politics.  It's a big deal so y'all should take advantage of it


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm thinking that you and Mr Bussy Sr have the right idea!


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## Susie (Apr 21, 2015)

So, how's the weather where ever you live, everyone?

OR

How about those <insert sports team name here>?


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> So, how's the weather where ever you live, everyone?
> 
> OR
> 
> How about those <insert sports team name here>?



Why thank you for asking, Susie!

The weather was stormy last night, but today dawned sunny and gorgeous with highs in the sixties.  We're going to experience a cooling trend this week, which will slow down getting my plants out to harden off.  That's no matter, it's early anyway and I have tons of time.

I don't follow the local Iron Pigs, but understand they had a so-so season.


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## shunt2011 (Apr 21, 2015)

How about those Red Wings and Tigers.....

Let's keep playing nice.  Everyone has their opinions and are entitled to them but let's agree to disagree in this case and move on.


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 21, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> How about those Red Wings and Tigers.....
> 
> Let's keep playing nice.  Everyone has their opinions and are entitled to them but let's agree to disagree in this case and move on.



I've had hot wings, but never red wings...


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## shunt2011 (Apr 21, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> I've had hot wings, but never red wings...


 
I've had hot wing too.  Just hoping that we have Hot Red Wings tonight for game 3.  :mrgreen:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 21, 2015)

NJ Devils!  Ah, I do remember seeing the Rangers playing in MSG and also the Knicks on the TV in the bar almost every night when I was in NYC.


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 21, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> I've had hot wing too.  Just hoping that we have Hot Red Wings tonight for game 3.  :mrgreen:



It was just pointed out to me that "red wings" is actually a phrase with a meaning.

For the love of little green apples, don't look it up unless you want to get a little squicked out.  You Have Been Warned.  :Kitten Love:


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## shunt2011 (Apr 21, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> It was just pointed out to me that "red wings" is actually a phrase with a meaning.
> 
> For the love of little green apples, don't look it up unless you want to get a little squicked out. You Have Been Warned. :Kitten Love:


 
Okay, now you've peaked my interest. I'm going to check it out. If my work network will let me. They block us from the stupidest things.

Okay, you win....now I'm totally squicked out.   Learn something new every day.  :shock::shock:


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## Dorymae (Apr 21, 2015)

Saponista said:


> Little harm? If you call having your skin burned off from a lye heavy bar or having a horrific reaction from way too much essential oil then I suppose I agree with you.



Really? You've heard of something like this that was not a reaction to an allergy but was caused by lye heavy soap?

I've never come across it, and I've looked. Allergies are abundant but they will happen in a well made bar as well as a badly made bar, but I've never heard of someone having their skin burned off from a lye heavy bar.


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 21, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> Okay, now you've peaked my interest. I'm going to check it out. If my work network will let me. They block us from the stupidest things.
> 
> Okay, you win....now I'm totally squicked out.   Learn something new every day.  :shock::shock:



I.  Warned.  You.  Next time, listen...because if I get squicked, it's really pretty bad indeed.  I don't squick easily.   :???:


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## shunt2011 (Apr 21, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> I. Warned. You. Next time, listen...because if I get squicked, it's really pretty bad indeed. I don't squick easily. :???:


 
I generally don't either.   My husband cured me of that 20 years ago.  I've seen and heard things that should have burned my eyes and ears out. We put the fun in dysfunctional for sure.  Not too much out of bounds.


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## LBussy (Apr 21, 2015)




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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 21, 2015)

LBussy said:


>



Bring it, Bussy!


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## KristaY (Apr 21, 2015)

MorpheusPA said:


> It was just pointed out to me that "red wings" is actually a phrase with a meaning.
> 
> For the love of little green apples, don't look it up unless you want to get a little squicked out. You Have Been Warned. :Kitten Love:


 
I first heard that meaning (along with some others that are related) when I was in high school so that's what came to mind first! I absolutely wasn't going to mention it because of the puke factor, lol. At least you warned everyone that may get curious! (I'm still giggling at those curious types that just had to know...)


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## shunt2011 (Apr 21, 2015)

I think this conversation has gotten way off track....into the gutter.   Bad bad bad!!!


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## KristaY (Apr 21, 2015)

I'm still chuckling, Shunt! But I'd rather be laughing to the point of tears running down my face than rolling my eyes over the political points of view. We have Susie to blame for the train being derailed!


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 21, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> I think this conversation has gotten way off track....into the gutter.   Bad bad bad!!!



In my experience, the gutter features the best people and most fun to be had in any given locale.


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## FlybyStardancer (Apr 21, 2015)

Add me to the curious that had to look it up.  And I had to change the search because the first one only gave me sports and shoes! And eeeeeh... It's gross, but it's not hitting my squick button as much as other things can. To each their own, right?


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## Susie (Apr 21, 2015)

KristaY said:


> I'm still chuckling, Shunt! But I'd rather be laughing to the point of tears running down my face than rolling my eyes over the political points of view. *We have Susie to blame for the train being derailed!*



You're welcome.:crazy:


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## hmlove1218 (Apr 21, 2015)

KristaY said:


> I first heard that meaning (along with some others that are related) when I was in high school so that's what came to mind first! I absolutely wasn't going to mention it because of the puke factor, lol. At least you warned everyone that may get curious! (I'm still giggling at those curious types that just had to know...)



*raises hand* Yep I had to look it up lol. I agree with FlyBy though.  There are much worse things out there lol (rusty trombone anyone?). A definite eew.. but not a squick ha.

I wouldn't suggest looking that up either lol.


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## newbie (Apr 21, 2015)

You've got to have some decent coordination for a rusty trombone, it would seem. The clumsy need not apply.

Thanks for the education, you guys! I've heard worse but still, it's good to have a broad knowledge base.


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## not_ally (Apr 21, 2015)

I have been really enjoying the funniness of these posts by themselves, but trying so, so hard not to google, I am somewhat squickable.  Thanks for adding yet another term to have to resist, you guys.

Poor OP and the guy who went political, they must think we are all insane.  Which has yet to be proved untrue


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## Reesedog914 (Apr 21, 2015)

haha i no point was I ever mad or arguing. Two people should allowed to disagree without spiraling into name calling and that's exactly what happened. Nobody felt uncomfortable besides the people that needed to switch the subject for whatever reason. Avoiding politics because you can't keep it together is the reason why nobody knows anything about anything.


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## IrishLass (Apr 21, 2015)

not_ally said:


> I have been really enjoying the funniness of these posts by themselves, but trying so, so hard not to google, I am somewhat squickable.


 
Don't do it, not_ally. Seriously! Just don't. Stupid me, on the other hand just had to rush in where angels fear to tread, and I am now trying to get the image out of my mind. Eeeew, eeeew, eeeew! :crazy:

Hey- speaking of things that are red- anybody make homemade ice cream? I made some awesome strawberry ice cream a few weeks ago that tasted just like the strawberry shortcake ice cream bars sold by Good Humor Man. I also made some watermelon ice cream with chocolate 'seeds' (white and dark), and pistachio ice cream (among others). Summer will be upon us all soon, you know, and it never hurts to have your recipes perfected ahead of time!


IrishLass


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## hmlove1218 (Apr 21, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Don't do it, not_ally. Seriously! Just don't. Stupid me, on the other hand just had to rush in where angels fear to tread, and I am now trying to get the image out of my mind. Eeeew, eeeew, eeeew! :crazy:
> 
> Hey- speaking of things that are red- anybody make homemade ice cream? I made some awesome strawberry ice cream a few weeks ago that tasted just like the strawberry shortcake ice cream bars sold by Good Humor Man. I also made some watermelon ice cream with chocolate 'seeds' (white and dark), and pistachio ice cream (among others). Summer will be upon us all soon, you know, and it never hurts to have your recipes perfected ahead of time!
> 
> ...



Ooh those sound yummy! My grandmother used to make homemade ice cream all the time during the summer. Store bought just doesn't compare lol.


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## not_ally (Apr 21, 2015)

Actually, I think many felt uncomfortable, because all though we are probably a group that varies widely on a number of topics, including politics, I believe most of us come here to just enjoy the soapy fellowship  and *not* have politics, or other personal things, disrupt that.  

I belong to other soapy related boards where that is not the case - and sometimes that can be good too - but this is not one of them, and it is one of the reasons that I like to come here, that very quality.  

I hope you will note that I am not making a comment of any kind *about* politics, just about the nature and rules of the board.  

"Nobody felt uncomfortable besides the people that needed to switch the  subject for whatever reason. Avoiding politics because you can't keep it  together is the reason why nobody knows anything about anything"


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## MorpheusPA (Apr 21, 2015)

not_ally said:


> Actually, I think many felt uncomfortable, because all though we are probably a group that varies widely on a number of topics, including politics, I believe most of us come here to just enjoy the soapy fellowship  and *not* have politics, or other personal things, disrupt that.



Exactly.  If I want politics, there are sites for that.  Which I read.  They are not named "Soap Making Forum."  



> "Nobody felt uncomfortable besides the people that needed to switch the  subject for whatever reason. Avoiding politics because you can't keep it  together is the reason why nobody knows anything about anything"



Not your quote, not_ally, I know.  And the only comment I have is, no--I, anyway, changed the subject because it's inappropriate on this forum.  Plus one is unlikely to Make Friends and Influence People by insulting them, so that's generally an unwise thing to do.


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## Dahila (Apr 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> With all due respect, not_ally, if people with known allergies buys a bar of soap without a list of ingredients, it is not the seller's fault.  It is the buyer's fault.  They should know better, and be pro-active enough to take care of themselves.


Well said Susie.

I am allergic to *acetylsalicylic acid,* and I would not dream about taking any medication without checking the list of ingredients.   Same with any cosmetics , actually I buy only foundation lately :mrgreen:
People with allergies must check what they are buying, they are responsible for themselves not the seller.  I do not believe honest soap maker force their soap on people :think:


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## shunt2011 (Apr 22, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> Don't do it, not_ally. Seriously! Just don't. Stupid me, on the other hand just had to rush in where angels fear to tread, and I am now trying to get the image out of my mind. Eeeew, eeeew, eeeew! :crazy:
> 
> Hey- speaking of things that are red- anybody make homemade ice cream? I made some awesome strawberry ice cream a few weeks ago that tasted just like the strawberry shortcake ice cream bars sold by Good Humor Man. I also made some watermelon ice cream with chocolate 'seeds' (white and dark), and pistachio ice cream (among others). Summer will be upon us all soon, you know, and it never hurts to have your recipes perfected ahead of time!
> 
> ...


 

I went through a time when I was making ice cream. It was so fun and so delish!   I made Strawberry (yours sounds even yummier), Chocolate, Orange and several others.   Then the novelty wore off and I haven't made it in years.   I do love ice cream though.


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## LBussy (Apr 22, 2015)

I've made ice cream as well .. LOVE it.  My fave is plain old vanilla with a little bit of Amaretto on it.


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## IrishLass (Apr 22, 2015)

shunt2011 said:


> I went through a time when I was making ice cream. It was so fun and so delish! I made Strawberry (yours sounds even yummier), Chocolate, Orange and several others. Then the novelty wore off and I haven't made it in years. I do love ice cream though.


 
I go through the same on and off ice cream-making obsession, too, only instead of years in between, it's more like a few months.  Orange is on my hit-list to try my hand at next (never made it before in spite of having our 2 orange trees, oddly enough). 



			
				LBussy said:
			
		

> I've made ice cream as well .. LOVE it. My fave is plain old vanilla with a little bit of Amaretto on it.


 
Plain old vanilla is my hubby's favorite, too. I call him my 'plain vanilla guy'. lol Only, he pours Hershey's over his....sometimes. My son and I are more adventurous. One of his favorites is Mexican chocolate and one of mine is avocado ice cream.

I should post the strawberry shortcake ice cream recipe over in the recipe section. It was a huge hit at the most recent family BBQ at my sis's house....well, that _and_ the watermelon ice cream (have dry ice, will travel!). 

I make it sound like we eat tons of ice cream, but I've recently grown fond of making up about a quart-sized batch of sweet cream base, dividing it into 1 cup portions which I flavor individually, and which then get dispensed into small, 4oz-sized freezer containers. That way, we're not over-gorging ourselves and we each get to pick our favorites.


IrishLass


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## kchaystack (Apr 22, 2015)

MMMmmmmm  Ice cream

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1569759316/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The White Russian is DEVINE


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## jules92207 (Apr 22, 2015)

You guys are killing me, time to bust out the ice cream maker!


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## IrishLass (Apr 22, 2015)

jules92207 said:


> You guys are killing me, time to bust out the ice cream maker!


 
Speaking about busting- mine is actually busted (the canister developed a small crack and is leaking blue fluid) so I've been doing it this way: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVums7b9Bvk[/ame]


IrishLass


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## cnm (Apr 22, 2015)

oh no


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## vmakkers (Apr 27, 2015)

I am kinda late to the party and you guys did turn this into an ice cream thread but for all your curious people, look up truffle butter. Def. worse than red wings. 

Happy Monday!


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## LBussy (Apr 27, 2015)

vmakkers said:


> I am kinda late to the party and you guys did turn this into an ice cream thread but for all your curious people, look up truffle butter. Def. worse than red wings.
> 
> Happy Monday!


Oh for the love of ... no PLEASE don't look!


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## kumudini (Apr 27, 2015)

My vegan icecream recipe:
Coconut milk, cashew paste, sweetener of choice with or without mango purée.
Had to find some use for my ice cream maker, but my non vegan friends enjoyed it thoroughly, the one with mango purée. I'm going to try different fruit purées this summer. Can't wait for the weather to get warm.


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## KristaY (Apr 27, 2015)

Yep, I had to do it, lol. I learn something new every time I'm on SMF. I appreciate the education as it's always good to keep up on slang terms. In my line of work I've seen and heard it all so now I have another phrase I'll understand if/when it's mentioned! :twisted:


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## Jstar (Apr 27, 2015)

Oh my gosh..making ice cream without a machine..I can forsee another layer of fat forming as I type..thank heavens its getting hot outside and I can work it off in the garden..evil enabler Irish


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## jules92207 (Apr 27, 2015)

I'll never look at See's candy the same.


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## IrishLass (Apr 27, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Oh for the love of ... no PLEASE don't look!


 
I've learned my lesson, and I'm very happy to say I didn't look. 




> I'll never look at See's candy the same.


 
I'm very happy to report that I don't have a clue what that means, but it sounds like I dodged a bullet and I am happy knowing that I shall have no trouble being able to forever eat candy from See's in all blissful innocence. :angel:

By the way, I made orange creamsicles yesterday, and I'll be making cantaloupe ice cream tomorrow so that I can use up the cantaloupe my son bought but neglected to eat. I want to use it up before it goes bad.


IrishLass


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## KristaY (Apr 27, 2015)

Cantaloupe ice cream? I've never seen it but it sounds delicious!


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## not_ally (Apr 28, 2015)

IL, me too.  NO WAY am I checking out anything that will interfere with my enjoyment of See's caramels.


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## Sauboon (Jun 4, 2015)

Thank you so much. You gave a really good explanation...







lionprincess00 said:


> Ok. This isn't scientific or anything but...
> I stopped using regular soap because of this exact issue. It burned, in places, bad. I started using dove (doesn't it have a lower Ph?) Anyway I used sensitive skin dove and never had another problem.
> 
> Introduce using my own cp soap.
> ...


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