# Base formula



## Daniellewal (Apr 8, 2021)

Hello , can someone help I’m a beginner,  I’m looking for a good all rounded formula for the base of my cold compress soaps. I don’t want to use palm oil or any lard / beef fats ect.
I realise it’s personal preference, but I have nothing to go off at the moment apart from research from others, but I’m confused. So I need something to try. I have done two batches of soap so far they turned out ok, ( not using this recipe below exactly just a palm free one)  I have been trying formulas out on soap cal and researching other company’s soap recipes and this is what I have come up with from my research. 
Olive oil 40%
Coconut oil 25%
Shea butter 20%
Sunflower oil 10%
Caster oil - 5%

5% super fat & 33% lye concentration,  I will only be using Essential oils as-well. 

Some people seem to iver add sweet almond oil or cocoa butter but I don’t no what difference these make? I have read up on what each oil does but how much of a difference would they be for this base recipe.

Does this seem about right to go off and then obviously tweak depending on my variants? I would like to make a business out of the soap and going through the cpsr they just seem to let you put one base recipe in and then you can have up to 6 variants more depending what company you go for, I don’t no if this is why it has got me confused. I no I need to do alot
More before I make a business out of it but that’s why I’m on here asking for help. I’m abit stuck and don’t want to spend loads money trying different base recipes out waiting months . I want to get stuck in with my essential oils adding clays ect I just need to get this first part sorted.


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## cmzaha (Apr 8, 2021)

Welcome to the Forum Daniellewal and soapmaking. I would suggest you go to the introduction and tell us a little bit about yourself. The Introduction Forum

I will let others help you with your recipe since I would not make soap without using palm, lard, or tallow especially when selling. You simply will not make much money if trying to make a decent soap depending on butters to make a long-lasting soap, but butters can be a nice additive in low percentages. Your best bet will be to use Soy Wax to harden up your soap and lengthen the longevity, which should be much more cost-effective. There are a few here that use Soy Wax so I am sure you will get help. 

As for not spending much money or time that is not an option when wanting to start a soap business, both are a requirement if you wish to succeed at selling soap. You also have to pay for assessment so you want a good sound recipe before putting out the money. For us, that has succeeded in selling soap we are not too inclined to give up our recipes that took a lot of time and money to create. I personally do not use OO in soap because it always feels sticky to me, but it is obvious many love it, and 25% CO would have produced a soap much too harsh for my customers, so I had to create a soap that would lather well with a low cleansing factor and long-lasting. My CO/PKO split never went over 18%, which I liked better than just CO.


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## Daniellewal (Apr 8, 2021)

Sorry why? Are you the owner of the site? 

Yes I no you have to pay for your assessment I’m well aware of that and everything else it’s cost I have done my research, I wanted some help to try and cut some of it down by getting an all rounded formula without using what I stated I didn’t want to use. Thankyou! And I use 4 company’s for my soap I buy for myself non of which use palm tellow ect... I’m from the UK and the company’s I buy from are the same.  I notice most recipes that arnt from the uk seem to like to use palm tellow ect , but I don’t want to use that which I have stated, and they have built very good company’s.  I thought This was what the forum was for asking for help on recipes... anyways I would like people to answer with similar recipes not ones I said I didn’t want to use . Ta


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## lsg (Apr 8, 2021)

These are the properties of you soap according to The Soap Making Friend.  As you can see, your soap may not produce a long-lasting bar.  You might consider exchanging the shea butter for 20% soy wax.
*Recipe Properties*

Property%RecommendedBubbly Lather2114 - 46Cleansing1712 - 22Condition6044 - 69Hardness3729 - 54Longevity2025 - 50Creamy Lather2416 - 48Iodine6641 - 70Ins141136 - 165


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## Daniellewal (Apr 8, 2021)

Thankyou I shall look into that. So you don’t think adding another butter will make the difference? And when you say a long lasting bar , do you mean it will go soft quicker? After cure? I find it confusing because just olive oil (Castile) is a hard bar , can someone spread some light over this? One of my suppliers I buy from her soap has a 6 months life onit , is that what you mean ?


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## Jersey Girl (Apr 8, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> Thankyou I shall look into that. So you don’t think adding another butter will make the difference? And when you say a long lasting bar , do you mean it will go soft quicker? After cure? I find it confusing because just olive oil (Castile) is a hard bar , can someone spread some light over this? One of my suppliers I buy from her soap has a 6 months life onit , is that what you mean ?



Longevity refers to how long a soap will last with use. Lower numbers generally will “melt” away faster as they are more water soluble. Learning which oils bring which properties to a well balanced bar of soap will help you formulate a nice bar that last for a good amount of time in use.  Don’t mistake hardness for longevity though. For example, high coconut oil will produce a very hard bar of soap, but it will melt away quickly as it is more water soluble than other oils. There is so much to research and learn and if you do some searching on the forum you can find tons of excellent information.


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## lsg (Apr 8, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> Thankyou I shall look into that. So you don’t think adding another butter will make the difference? And when you say a long lasting bar , do you mean it will go soft quicker? After cure? I find it confusing because just olive oil (Castile) is a hard bar , can someone spread some light over this? One of my suppliers I buy from her soap has a 6 months life onit , is that what you mean ?


What Jersey Girl said.


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## earlene (Apr 8, 2021)

True 100% OO soap is hard, but it still doesn't last long because it wears away quickly in use.  CO is also hard, but wears away quickly with use.  What makes a bar of soap wear away quickly is the how hydrophilic it is; some are more soluble and some are less.

Some butters are harder than others; Cocoa butter is harder than shea.  Illipe butter is harder still.  But butters can increase the cost of your soap.

Soy wax is hydrogenated soy oil & will harden your bar.  Some use it up to 40%.  Others stick to 25-30%.

Another option for hardening your soap is to use *stearic acid*. Another is to use rice (see threads about Triple Rice soap here at SMF.)

Rice bran oil creates a harder some than some other liquid oils.  Avocado oil is harder still.

You just have to try several out in your soap/lye calculator.  These two are the ones I prefer, but there are other good ones:  Soapmaking Recipe Builder & Lye Calculator  &  Soapee Next &  this is good for sorting oils based on fatty acids: Sort Oils

If your research has taught you what the FAs do in soap, that last one can be  quite useful.


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## KiwiMoose (Apr 8, 2021)

I use both soy wax (20%) and shea butter (10%) in my standard recipe which is also palm-free and vegan.  I think in the UK you can get one called Eurosoy which is supposed to be quite good.  I started out using cocoa butter but it's so expensive, so I switched to soy wax.
Have a search for my threads where I mention soy wax and I think I have included some recipes in there somewhere


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## Daniellewal (Apr 9, 2021)

Aww brilliant Thankyou everyone !!


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## Daniellewal (Apr 9, 2021)

Got another question haha, how long after cure time from when your selling should a bar of soap actually last? As there is a lady I watch on YouTube she’s great at giving soap advice out and her formula are what I’m looking for. She say 6 months 12 max the soap I purchased was 6 months . If your saying my bars won’t last long how long is that a couple of washes or a month? Obviously this will also depend on how the person looks after their soap ? Hope that makes sense, I just can’t understand when im looking at other people recipes that I purchase from have the same ingredients (possible not the same percentages) make it work. I personally don’t want to use a soap that’s been sitting there for longer than 6 months, also I would want recurring business from them so if their soap lasted to long well I’m just relaying on new customers all the time ?


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## Hope Ann (Apr 9, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> Sorry why? Are you the owner of the site?
> 
> I wanted some help to try and cut some of it down by getting an all rounded formula without using what I stated I didn’t want to use.
> 
> I thought This was what the forum was for asking for help on recipes...



Your answer came across as rude.  It's asked that we introduce ourselves because that is typical forum etiquette.  It allows members to know you and your background, which may help them to help you.

As far as recipes, as stated above, most of us spent months and years and money testing formulas.  You can read through the forums and find some shared formulas, but you'll still have to test for your supplies and environment.  There aren't shortcuts in soapmaking.

I would suggest searching the forum for various key words, or just taking the time to read through threads.  Many of your questions will have been answered, but not always by people who are still active here.  For example, you can search for longevity or hardness, to learn what they mean and how to improve that in soap.  Which oils, butters, etc. Improve it, saturated vs u saturated, etc.  Soapmaking had a lot of science to it so it's worth the time to search and learn.  Keep a notebook handy to take notes.  Again, no shortcuts.

Lastly, besides this forum, the Ultimate Guide to Soapmaking is a thorough reference that is reasonably priced.  It's an ebook.

Hope


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## TheGecko (Apr 9, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> Sorry why? Are you the owner of the site?



It's a courtesy to introduce yourself...nothing more, nothing less.



> Does this seem about right to go off and then obviously tweak depending on my variants? I would like to make a business out of the soap and going through the cpsr they just seem to let you put one base recipe in and then you can have up to 6 variants more depending what company you go for, I don’t no if this is why it has got me confused. I no I need to do alot
> 
> More before I make a business out of it but that’s why I’m on here asking for help. I’m abit stuck and don’t want to spend loads money trying different base recipes out waiting months . I want to get stuck in with my essential oils adding clays ect I just need to get this first part sorted.



There are no shortcuts to making soap...period. 

First you need to develop a base recipe...this takes time and money. Second, you need to test your soaps...again, time and money. Curing isn't just about water evaporation...there is a lot of science involved and you need to know what your soap is like in six months to a year. Consider...someone buys a half dozen bars of soap...depending on how many people are using that bar, how often they are using that bar and under what conditions (bath, shower, sink)...they may use up those bars in month or it may take a year. So you need to make sure that you have a good quality soap that only improves with age...instead of melting away or becoming rancid.

The UK/EU has very strict rules when it comes to soap making, the purpose of which is to make sure you are selling a soap that is safe. There are safe usage rates for EOs, FOs, colorants and additives that you must follow. Each assessment allows for your bases recipe along with 5 to 6 'variants' and you must stick with that assessment...you can use less additives, but you can't go beyond that assessment. As an example...say your assessment includes TD, Red, Yellow and Blue Micas...you can make a single color soap, you can make swirls, you can combine Red and Yellow to make Orange or Yellow and Blue to make Green. But once you change anything...say you want to make a soap with Activated Charcoal...you will need a new assessment. Or say you want to use a different FO, you will need a new assessment. 

And once you receive money for your soap...even from friends and family who are just covering your costs...you'll need to register and have insurance; more time and money.

So now you have developed a solid recipe, you have met all the legal requirements, you have an inventory of beautifully designed and packaged soap and...you sell a dozen bars of soap to family and friends and now what? Talk to anyone who make soap for a living and most will tell you that it takes four to five years before they start making money. And starting a business during a global pandemic?!? Yeah, folks are using more soap, but they aren't using artisan soap because they don't have the money.


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## Daniellewal (Apr 9, 2021)

I felt her answer was rude. I don’t need people to no about me... it’s about soap not me ? And yeh obviously I need to test formulas , but this is a forum where you ask questions. Don’t you think I have done that lol reading on these threads for months and as stated trying to do research, I wanted a answer if know one wanted to give me one they just keep quiet.. this is what I didn’t want that’s why I felt like I had to justify everything I said as someone start making a thing about it when actually that’s not that main question. I have 3 books also im just struggling to get my head around some people seem to get it quicker than others, so many people say so many different things. So I thought I would try here and get some advice on an all rounded base recipe vegan friendly and palm free recipes as when looking at doing a cpsr then want 1 base formula , I have tried a few with nothing actually being wrong with them so far it just hasn’t had enough cure time yet for me to actually check them. I wanted other things to try while I wait to compare but I don’t want to waste batch’s so people advice is better .


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## earlene (Apr 9, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> Got another question haha, how long after cure time from when your selling should a bar of soap actually last? As there is a lady I watch on YouTube she’s great at giving soap advice out and her formula are what I’m looking for. She say 6 months 12 max the soap I purchased was 6 months . If your saying my bars won’t last long how long is that a couple of washes or a month? Obviously this will also depend on how the person looks after their soap ? Hope that makes sense, I just can’t understand when im looking at other people recipes that I purchase from have the same ingredients (possible not the same percentages) make it work. I personally don’t want to use a soap that’s been sitting there for longer than 6 months, also I would want recurring business from them so if their soap lasted to long well I’m just relaying on new customers all the time ?


I am not sure about how the EU regs view shelf life of soap, so my answer could be way off if your regs differ.

However, some formulas require a very long cure, but they probably wouldn't be cost-effective for a business, due to having to store them for longer periods.  I have no problem waiting for a long cure, but I don't sell my soap, either.

Soap that is properly made/stored without contaminants to introduce or foster DOS, will not go 'bad' in so short a time and often improves with age.  Perhaps a high SF soap would, but even those can last years without going rancid. I am currently using a bar that has only just reached what feels to me like its peak; that soap will be 3 years old, the end of this month.

Regarding the question about how long soap will last once in use:  It really depends on the formula, the cure, plus the _size of the soap_ as well as user actions_ and_ environment. I know that's not definitive, but there are too many variables to give a hard & fast rule, IMO.

I think DeeAnna once posted about figuring out how long (her) soap lasted, but I don't really remember much about that post:  I think it was years ago. 

I'd suggest a customer would want a bar of soap to last at least or about a month for daily showers.    A soap that is very soluble won't dry out between showers in a poorly ventilated shower, and perhaps will be a gooey mess in short order, making the customer feel the soapmaker doesn't know what they are doing.  The same soap will last a lot longer in optimal conditions, of course. 

Why not just try out your formula, cure it for 4 weeks; test one bar and leave the rest to continue to cure for another month while you evaluate the first bar for daily showers for that month.  Keep notes about the soap's performance. When that bar wears too small, take the second bar; note the date & evaluate that bar with the longer cure & its performance.  Keep going with the 3rd and 4th bar until you are satisfied you have learned all you can from that formula. 

By doing that, you can answer the question of how cure time can make a difference, and how long you think a bar should last in use.  If you are satisfied with the quality & performance, You can decide if you feel it is a viable formula for continued production.  If not, reconsider the formula.


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## Daniellewal (Apr 9, 2021)

earlene said:


> I am not sure about how the EU regs view shelf life of soap, so my answer could be way off if your regs differ.
> 
> However, some formulas require a very long cure, but they probably wouldn't be cost-effective for a business, due to having to store them for longer periods.  I have no problem waiting for a long cure, but I don't sell my soap, either.
> 
> ...



yes sounds good thanykou


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## cmzaha (Apr 9, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> I felt her answer was rude. I don’t need people to no about me...


Excuse me, I was not even close to rude... BTW it proper grammar would be to say "know" about me not "no" about me, and I did give you the hint of using soy wax to help with your vegan soap. I am also one here that tends to share a lot of recipes when asked properly, especially now that I have retired.

Someone could give you their best selling recipe and you could hate it so you wasted ingredients.

And since you called me rude I will point out it is Cold Process Soap, not Cold Compress...


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## lsg (Apr 9, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> I felt her answer was rude. I don’t need people to no about me... it’s about soap not me ? And yeh obviously I need to test formulas , but this is a forum where you ask questions. Don’t you think I have done that lol reading on these threads for months and as stated trying to do research, I wanted a answer if know one wanted to give me one they just keep quiet.. this is what I didn’t want that’s why I felt like I had to justify everything I said as someone start making a thing about it when actually that’s not that main question. I have 3 books also im just struggling to get my head around some people seem to get it quicker than others, so many people say so many different things. So I thought I would try here and get some advice on an all rounded base recipe vegan friendly and palm free recipes as when looking at doing a cpsr then want 1 base formula , I have tried a few with nothing actually being wrong with them so far it just hasn’t had enough cure time yet for me to actually check them. I wanted other things to try while I wait to compare but I don’t want to waste batch’s so people advice is better .


I don't think anyone intended to be rude to you.  We just like everyone to post a little something about themselves in the Intro section.


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## Arimara (Apr 9, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> I felt her answer was rude. I don’t need people to no about me... it’s about soap not me ? And yeh obviously I need to test formulas , but this is a forum where you ask questions. Don’t you think I have done that lol reading on these threads for months and as stated trying to do research, I wanted a answer if know one wanted to give me one they just keep quiet.. this is what I didn’t want that’s why I felt like I had to justify everything I said as someone start making a thing about it when actually that’s not that main question. I have 3 books also im just struggling to get my head around some people seem to get it quicker than others, so many people say so many different things. So I thought I would try here and get some advice on an all rounded base recipe vegan friendly and palm free recipes as when looking at doing a cpsr then want 1 base formula , I have tried a few with nothing actually being wrong with them so far it just hasn’t had enough cure time yet for me to actually check them. I wanted other things to try while I wait to compare but I don’t want to waste batch’s so people advice is better .


How small are your test batches that you don't wanna waste batches? In any case, You need to use some resources to develop your soap. It's unrealistic not to do so when there are so many factors beyond your control that affect how your soap will come out. I could give you a recipe that works marvelously for me that would be trash for you simply because I formulated it for my specific area.


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## TheGecko (Apr 10, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> I felt her answer was rude. I don’t need people to no about me... it’s about soap not me ? And yeh obviously I need to test formulas , but this is a forum where you ask questions. Don’t you think I have done that lol reading on these threads for months and as stated trying to do research, I wanted a answer if know one wanted to give me one they just keep quiet.. this is what I didn’t want that’s why I felt like I had to justify everything I said as someone start making a thing about it when actually that’s not that main question. I have 3 books also im just struggling to get my head around some people seem to get it quicker than others, so many people say so many different things. So I thought I would try here and get some advice on an all rounded base recipe vegan friendly and palm free recipes as when looking at doing a cpsr then want 1 base formula , I have tried a few with nothing actually being wrong with them so far it just hasn’t had enough cure time yet for me to actually check them. I wanted other things to try while I wait to compare but I don’t want to waste batch’s so people advice is better



First of all...check your attitude at the door. No was rude to you, as I said, it’s how things are done here. I got the same request with my first post...it was NOT a big deal to give information about my soap making experience. Doing so gives us an idea to what extent you need help and what terminology to use. And that’s NOT about talking down, it’s about not giving a Calculus book to a Kindergartener. If you’re new to soaping, I won’t say “PPO”, I will say “PPO (per pound of oil)”. 

Second, may I recommend that you slow down and check over what you have written before you post. We are not the spelling/grammar police, but clarity leads to better understanding of a person is wanting to.

Now you can get you panties in a twist, or you can simply say “fair enough” and we move forward.

With that said, based on what you have said so for, you are a beginner soap maker who had done some research. Research is good, but depending on the source, it should be taken with a grain of salt. Frankly, there is a lot of crap out. Yes, not wanting to use Palm Oil or animal fats like Lard and Tallow is a often a personal preference, but it should be YOUR preference for YOUR reasons, and NOT because someone on the Internet told you it was “bad”. I use RSPO certified Palm Oil because I grew up an area that was almost destroyed by the Spotted Owl controversy. After an industry was gutted, and once thriving communities were turned into ghost towns...turned out the Spotted Owl didn’t care how old the tree was.

Soap made with animal fats are the oldest soaps. I haven’t used Tallow, but I have used Lard and it’s lovely. It’s naturally white and slow moving, I will be using it when I attempt a Taiwan Swirl. It’s also cost effective...I can make a Lard Soap for almost half the cost of my Regular Soap. Unfortunately, animal fats have gotten a bad rap which is stupid (IMHO)...whether you use the most expensive oils or the cheapest oils...what you end up with is the same product.

Oh...I’d drop your Coconut Oil down to 20%.


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## cerelife (Apr 10, 2021)

This forum is *absolutely* for asking questions and it's one of the most friendly, helpful forums for soapmaking that I've belonged to over the years. This is a great place to learn and you will find a lot of very generous advice from our members. Welcome!
But your posts don't seem like _general_ questions so much as basically asking for a good soap recipe so that you can start  building a business without wasting your time and money trying out your own recipes. Or am I misunderstanding your intent?
Because if I'm NOT misunderstanding, then how on earth do you think *we* came up with successful soap recipes? I'll tell you - by wasting a lot of time and money to make our best soap. We try a basic recipe and then tweak it little by little until we find the 'sweet spot' which is our ideal soap. When I say 'tweak', I mean we research different oils and percentages (as well as additives) and what they bring to our soap and then we try, and try again to get what we want. We make a LOT of soap before we find that perfect balance that makes our ideal soap.This is true for most of us, not just those of us who have a business.
And please keep in mind that as others have said, our perfect soap may not be to your liking.
You've mentioned several times that you've done your research, but you mention companies that you buy soap from and their recipes. Attempting to copy someone else's recipe isn't research. Reading books on soapmaking is great, but the real research is in learning about the different oils and additives/learning what they will add to your soap/and trying it for yourself to see what YOU like in a bar of soap.
Yet you thought someone was rude by asking you to introduce yourself to the forum and pointing our that it wasn't a realistic expectation that we would just hand over our recipes to help you start a business?
Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding your intentions. But it seems like you want to take advantage of all of the time and money _*we've*_ spent learning how to make good soap so that you don't have to do the work? Do I have that right?


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## lmfrancis15 (Apr 10, 2021)

Hope Ann said:


> Lastly, besides this forum, the Ultimate Guide to Soapmaking is a thorough reference that is reasonably priced.  It's an ebook.
> 
> Hope



ooh.... dont believe I’ve come across that particularly publication,  would you have an authors name or perhaps a web link to it please?


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## SeaSuds (Apr 10, 2021)

cerelife said:


> maybe I'm misunderstanding your intentions. But it seems like you want to take advantage of all of the time and money _*we've*_ spent learning how to make good soap so that you don't have to do the work? Do I have that right?


No sadly I don't think you do but hey ho not to worry, I don't think she'll be back to this 'friendly' forum in a hurry. 



TheGecko said:


> may I recommend that you slow down and check over what you have written before you post.


Good advice, please take it



TheGecko said:


> check your attitude at the door.


good advice, please take it


TheGecko said:


> Now you can get you panties in a twist, or you can simply say “fair enough” and we move forward.


Hmm....


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## Susie (Apr 10, 2021)

Daniellewal said:


> This is what I mean I’m
> Out of here Thankyou for everyone who did give me advice appreciate it



Bye, See you!  Don't let the door hit you where the Good Lord split you!

And this time, guys, it wasn't me instigating or participating in this!


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## SeaSuds (Apr 10, 2021)

Actually to be clear my comments above were aimed at the posters themselves and not at the young woman who left.  Can't stand bullying in any form and thats exactly whats gone on here ....again.  As for your comments Susie, Grow Up!!


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## lsg (Apr 10, 2021)

I have locked this thread because it has developed "ping pong" tendencies.


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