# Why is it so drying when it shouldn't be?



## gigisiguenza (Sep 23, 2015)

My third soapy batch is matured and I've been trying it out. It lathers well but is very drying and I'm looking for help understanding why.

Any help is appreciated 

Here's the specifics
____________________
Recipe:
5% Safflower
5% Castor
20% CO 
20% OO
50% Lard
5% SF
FO - BB Milk n Honey - used 1.5 oz for whole batch

Colorants:
Safflower Oil infused with Anatto powder
Parsley powder
Kaolin white clay

Process:
Batch date is 8/1, slab mold, colors poured into divided sections, swirled, sat in fridge for an hour to prevent gel, cut at 24ish hours, passed zap when tested couple days later.


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## KristaMarie (Sep 23, 2015)

Did you find your other batches drying? Just wondering if there's something different about this one. 

Some people can't handle even 20% CO, so you may want to reduce that in your next batch just to see.

How much clay did you use? Kaolin is really mild, but if you used enough of it, I guess it could be drying


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## lsg (Sep 23, 2015)

It could be that you have an allergy to the FO, making it seem like soap is doing the skin damage.


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## snappyllama (Sep 23, 2015)

You might be someone that's sensitive to CO. Most folks stay at or under 20% and are fine, but some people can only tolerate 15% or even less.  If you have any PKO handy, try splitting it into 8% PKO and 8% CO (putting the remainder in lard). I find my bars with that breakdown lather just as well, without giving me any of the drying that 20% CO can sometimes do.

I also like to SF a little higher... 6-7% range since my skin gets very dry feeling in my climate.

I haven't used parsely powder - have you used it before?  I'm not sure if that could be an irritant for you.


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## Obsidian (Sep 23, 2015)

20% coconut is as high as I can use (exception is a salt bar) toss clay into the mix and I can't use it at all. I know many people really like clay in soaps but I can't stand the stuff.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 23, 2015)

KristaMarie said:


> Did you find your other batches drying? Just wondering if there's something different about this one.
> 
> Some people can't handle even 20% CO, so you may want to reduce that in your next batch just to see.
> 
> How much clay did you use? Kaolin is really mild, but if you used enough of it, I guess it could be drying



Krista - that's a good question, lemme look at my notes. The only batch I've been using before testing the one in question is my first batch, which used the same FO and I have no issues with that one, so I'm pretty sure it's not the FO (or logic says it shouldn't be anyway )


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 23, 2015)

Ok so here is  the two batches side by side, maybe this will help with troubleshooting

batch 1 (which I can use happily and gives me no issues at all, love it actually) 
and batch 3 (which gave me very itchy dryness, but my roommate likes it, go figure) 

Batch #1_____________________Batch #3
10% Avocado________________5% Safflower
10% Castor__________________5% Castor
20% CO______________________20% CO
30% Lard____________________50% Lard
30% OO_____________________20% OO
5% SF_______________________5% SF
FO .5% _______ BB MnH_____ FO .5%
Color
None________________________Anatto infused safflower oil 26g added to 850g of main oils
_____________________________Parsley powder 1tsp added to 637g of main oils
_____________________________Kaolin white clay 1Tbs added to 425g of main oils


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 23, 2015)

lsg said:


> It could be that you have an allergy to the FO, making it seem like soap is doing the skin damage.


I considered that, but its the same FO as my first batch, which I love and gives me no trouble


snappyllama said:


> You might be someone that's sensitive to CO. Most folks stay at or under 20% and are fine, but some people can only tolerate 15% or even less.  If you have any PKO handy, try splitting it into 8% PKO and 8% CO (putting the remainder in lard). I find my bars with that breakdown lather just as well, without giving me any of the drying that 20% CO can sometimes do.
> - I also like to SF a little higher... 6-7% range since my skin gets very dry feeling in my climate.
> - I haven't used parsely powder - have you used it before?  I'm not sure if that could be an irritant for you.


I haven't used palm as I've been unable to source it locally and can't afford to order it online after they add shipping. As to the parsley, nope, it was my first time using it, but it can't see how it would irritate. The anatto might thought, hmmmm.


Obsidian said:


> 20% coconut is as high as I can use (exception is a salt bar) toss clay into the mix and I can't use it at all. I know many people really like clay in soaps but I can't stand the stuff.


I had not considered  at all that the clay make it even more drying ..... hmmm. 
I've been using the high CO amount to ensure lather. I'm totally game to reduce the amount of CO but don't want to sacrifice lather.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 23, 2015)

BTW.... for anyone who thinks you can just whip up batches and crank em out to people, here is a lesson very firmly demonstrated regarding why you all say to NOT give soaps away or sell them before you have personally tested them.

I've been testing this one for a week and only gave it to my roommate to get feedback and determine if it is the soap or me. Thankfully, she likes the soap, has no drying issues, and says it doesn't leave her itchy at all. If I had not followed advice given very early on here, I would have assumed that since batch 1 was nice, then every other batch would be the same and perform the same. Now I know that this particular batch would be good for someone with oily skin, but is gonna be murder for folks with dry or trouble skin.


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## coffeetime (Sep 23, 2015)

gigisiguenza said:


> BTW.... for anyone who thinks you can just whip up batches and crank em out to people, here is a lesson very firmly demonstrated regarding why you all say to NOT give soaps away or sell them before you have personally tested them.
> 
> I've been testing this one for a week and only gave it to my roommate to get feedback and determine if it is the soap or me. Thankfully, she likes the soap, has no drying issues, and says it doesn't leave her itchy at all. If I had not followed advice given very early on here, I would have assumed that since batch 1 was nice, then every other batch would be the same and perform the same. Now I know that this particular batch would be good for someone with oily skin, but is gonna be murder for folks with dry or trouble skin.




Ooh, I'm on my phone so I can't but I wish I could like this ...x1000!


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 24, 2015)

Question -  could the soap still have lye present?? I was reading a different thread about a cured soap being tested and I'm wondering if the soap could still have lye present in it even though it passes zap. I doubt it because I used full water and ran it through soapcalc and measured exactly, but it's got me curious.

I can repost the 'recipe with actual amounts, not percentages, and water and lye amounts if that helps.

Safflower 45.36g
Castor 45.36g
CO 181.44g
OO 181.44g
Lard 453.59g
Water 344.73g
Lye 127.20g

Anyone wanna chime in?


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## Dharlee (Sep 24, 2015)

you can test the P of it with phenolphthalein. I think you can get that at swimming pool supply places. That should tell you if it's a lye problem shouldn't it?


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 24, 2015)

Dharlee said:


> you can test the P of it with phenolphthalein. I think you can get that at swimming pool supply places. That should tell you if it's a lye problem shouldn't it?



No idea, never phone tested soap before LOL. And I'm unsure where I would get a phone testing kit locally. I don't own a car so getting places outside my walkable routes is reliant on when I can get rides to the stores farther away.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 24, 2015)

Pheno would tell you if your soap was alkaline or not, but that's all. As we know soap is alkaline, it doesn't help us much. 

pH testing would tell us the pH, but that also doesn't tell us if there is a lye problem or not. 

Zap test is the best home method of testing for excess lye.


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## FlybyStardancer (Sep 24, 2015)

Dharlee said:


> you can test the P of it with phenolphthalein. I think you can get that at swimming pool supply places. That should tell you if it's a lye problem shouldn't it?



Not necessarily. Pheno tests the pH of standard solutions, where as to test if there's remaining lye you want to test free alkalinity. Those are separate tests and not interchangeable. Not to mention that soap is difficult to accurately test the pH of because of the way it actually buffers pH.


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## Susie (Sep 24, 2015)

1)  You can become allergic to anything at any time.  You can only rule out the FO if you are currently using a bar of batch #1 soap concurrently with #3.

2)  I am in the "can't stand clay in soap" group.  Makes my skin feel super dry and itchy.  I sent the bars to my kids who both have oily skin.

3)  Drop the CO to 10% on the next batch, and add sugar or honey at 2 tsp PPO to boost bubbles.   That should help.

4)  You have the best measure of safe/not-safe right in your mouth.  If it does not zap, you have a safe soap.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 24, 2015)

Susie said:


> 1)  You can become allergic to anything at any time.  You can only rule out the FO if you are currently using a bar of batch #1 soap concurrently with #3.
> 
> 2)  I am in the "can't stand clay in soap" group.  Makes my skin feel super dry and itchy.  I sent the bars to my kids who both have oily skin.
> 
> ...



Susie - I love that you think in itemized lists like I do LOL

1) I'm currently using batch #1 with no trouble, so I don't think the FO is the issue, but I will pay closer attention now that I've stopped using the soap that is giving me the itchies.

2) If the other soaps I made that have clay in them give me the dry itchy reaction, I may end up in the same club.

3) I will try that. Do I need to worry about the sugar or honey causing acceleration or overheating?

4) Thats good to know. I know you all have said it before, but I second guess myself and worry 

TY for the feedback


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## Obsidian (Sep 24, 2015)

It could be that you simply need a more conditioning bar which #1 is. You could make a small batch of #1 and add clay to portion, see how those bars do for you.

sugar/honey can cause overheating. Seems honey might be a bit worse than white sugar. I've read that if you add the honey to your cooled lye solution, let it heat back up then cool back down before mixing, it won't react as bad in your soap. 

I've found what works better and is easier then sugars is aloe juice. I don't know what is in it that boosts lather but it does. You can replace all your water with it and it behaves when you mix it with lye. You can get a big jug at walmart for around $6, it will be in the pharmacy section. Aloe does seem to make your soap a bit softer at first, might need a few extra hours before cutting.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 24, 2015)

Obsidian said:


> It could be that you simply need a more conditioning bar which #1 is. You could make a small batch of #1 and add clay to portion, see how those bars do for you.
> 
> sugar/honey can cause overheating. Seems honey might be a bit worse than white sugar. I've read that if you add the honey to your cooled lye solution, let it heat back up then cool back down before mixing, it won't react as bad in your soap.
> 
> I've found what works better and is easier then sugars is aloe juice. I don't know what is in it that boosts lather but it does. You can replace all your water with it and it behaves when you mix it with lye. You can get a big jug at walmart for around $6, it will be in the pharmacy section. Aloe does seem to make your soap a bit softer at first, might need a few extra hours before cutting.



Obsidian - you answered a question I've been meaning to ask but kept forgetting LOL. I saw that jug of aloe vera juice at Wal-Mart in the pharmacy but wasn't sure if it was good for soaping.  I've wanted to try the honey or sugar but have been leary of it because of the overheating issues. TY for the suggestions


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## osso (Sep 24, 2015)

Aloe is a wonderful and easy water replacement.

Agree with upping super fat to 6-7% with 20% CO.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 24, 2015)

Taking notes  I dunno why it hasn't occurred to me sooner to up the SF.  I want to make a "kitchen" soap, for use after painting or crafting, when my hands get filthy with sticky glues, paints, grout, etc but I don't want it to dry my hands out and make my already bad eczema worse. Upping the superfat would certainly help. 

Big duh moment LOL


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## Susie (Sep 24, 2015)

OK, you just threw a wrench(spanner for you Brits) into the works.  You have eczema.  That changes everything.

The first thing you need to look at is getting the eczema under control or gone.  That means eliminating every potential cause that is under your control.  

The first thing that that means is no scents.  They are the #1 potential cause of eczema in hand made soap.  Make an unscented batch and use it exclusively for a month unless you figure out the cause sooner.  

The second thing that means is ONLY use your own soap, even for handwashing.  I make my own Soap2Go to keep in my pocket or purse so I can avoid using the soap at work/elsewhere.  

Next comes higher superfat, less cleansing.  I would boost the SF to *at least* 8%.  Lower the CO to no more than 10% just to get that cleansing number down.

Less number of oils to reduce potential allergens.  I would strongly think of using the lard/OO/CO/castor oil formula exclusively unless you figure out that one of those is the issue.  It is less likely to be lard than the others.  More likely to be CO.  

Look to your dish soap, laundry soap, dryer sheets, etc.  Are you avoiding exposure to excess dyes and perfumes?  I would wear gloves to wash dishes, change to "free" laundry products. 

I like enumerating my points.  Makes things easier to cover.  Lots of folks take enumerated points as something negative or "finger-pointy".  I have no idea why.  But I avoid using them whenever possible.  I usually only slip up when I am tired or sleepy.


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## kumudini (Sep 24, 2015)

Gigi, I'm sorry, but your eczema will keep you from trying all your wonderful creations. I don't have eczema but had very dry skin that changed after I started soaping. It still gets dry but not like before. But I have to say, it only gets dry when using soaps with FO as opposed to those with EO or non scented. But eczema means several things can trigger the itches and dryness.You have to be careful about what you use in your personal care products. In this particular incident, it could be any of the additives or safflower oil that triggered your reaction or it could be that the CO was a bit much for your skin. Whatever it is you have no way of pinpointing the cause right now. You will have to make test batches eliminating those four things, one at a time. If you don't want to bother with it, may be you could start an un scented batch with no additives and try one new thing at a time to figure out what you can use. Isn't it great that you have the skill to make a soap that is best for you. BTW, You could still whip up those fancy beauties and have a person with no eczema, like may be your roommate test those for you.


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## Susie (Sep 24, 2015)

It should not keep her from trying everything.  The main idea is to get the eczema under control, then add back one potential cause a week until she figures out what is triggering it.  I was very fortunate that my trigger was the syndets in commercial soap.  Making my own soap "cured" it by simply removing the triggers.


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## Dharlee (Sep 24, 2015)

Susie said:


> 1)  Drop the CO to 10% on the next batch, and add sugar or honey at 2 tsp PPO to boost bubbles.   That should help.


When do you add the honey or sugar to the formula to insure that it does not burn? Is it OK to let it gel?


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## Susie (Sep 24, 2015)

I add my honey or sugar straight to my oils.  Well, I dissolve the sugar in 1 oz HOT water and subtract that amount from the amount of water that mixes with the lye, then it goes into the oils.

I do gel all my soaps on the counter wrapped in a heavy towel.  I just have learned to start keeping an eye on it about every 30-45 min after the pouring for about 4-5 hours.  If I could not babysit it, I would probably put it into the freezer for 24 hours.  I have only had one overheat, and I learned my lesson.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 24, 2015)

I've only recently had to deal with this major eczema flair up stuff, and until recently didn't even know that what I was dealing with was eczema and/or psoriasis. It was a friend who deals with it herself who told me what I'm dealing with. I've never had it this bad, so I've never seen a doc about it, and I currently take nothing for it because I can't afford to see a doc due to low income and no insurance (don't make enough to afford it and make too much for state programs, go figure)

But, historically I've been unable to use OTC shampoos, soaps ,perfumes, etc for decades because I have always reacted to things in them. It's always been a hit or miss thing because I won't know if something is an issue until I use it and either immediately break out in hives, or get rashy skin over time. My response to this has been to religiously only use certain products because I know they won't bother me. I've been using the same soap, detergent for the eons. I always assumed this was allergy based, not a skin condition, so I've always just taken a benadryl and switched products. I've probably been doing the right things all along by accident LOL.

As to my eczema, when I was a kid, the rashy thing was a hit or miss thing. Sometimes it would be a quick small rash that would disappear a day later, sometimes it would be bad reaction that lasted weeks. It was always handled by the adults as nothing more than a simple rash. No one ever told me it was eczema. I never received any meds for it, never had to use special creams etc. At no time did anyone tell me I had eczema, it was simply understood that Gigi was sensitive to chemicals, so we don't use certain things, and being a kid, I accepted that. I took it all as normal, assumed everyone dealt with stupid rashes and took oatmeal baths. What did I know, I was a kid  LOL

As I became an adult, most of it stopped. I suppose it stopped because I was doing the product buying, so avoided any skin care product that was blue or green colored (a huge issue for me years ago), only bought pretty smelly things in small tester sizes until I determined that it wasn't going to make me all rashy, and pretty much avoided most topical skin stuff. Detergents at work were never an issue for most of life because I always brought my own bar of soap from home or requested something I could use. Plus I tended to wear gloves at most of my previous manual labor jobs as an ordinary part of my work (house cleaning, working job sites, freight work, etc) or didn't need them if I was at a desk job.

It's only in the past couple of years that this has become a more annoying issue, and only in the past couple of months, that I've been dealing with mega flair ups. My interest in learning about handmade soap has been driven by my curiosity regarding the difference between commercially produced soaps vs handmade soaps and how those differences impact my skin. 

It's going to sound very ridiculous, but for some reason, the use of FOs in handmade soap seemed safer to me. I dunno why I thought the FOs were somehow less an issue but I did. And the one I used in both batches in question doesn't seem to bother me, because the first batch gives me no trouble. It also never occurred to me that any of the oils used could give me trouble. Again, because I equate handmade with safer, so didn't think any oil used would bother my skin. I can't imagine making soap and not testing it out before giving it to others to use, so I'm gonna  have to at least suffer through hit and miss reactions on my hands and wrists, if I'm going to continue soaping. 

Cuz I'm not giving up soaping - no way Jose - not happening LOL.

But it makes me sad to think I can't have pretty smelly soaps for myself


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## Obsidian (Sep 24, 2015)

You might look into EOs that are the least irritating for skin conditions.


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## kumudini (Sep 24, 2015)

Oh, Gigi! Your post makes me sad. But you do have to be careful when you have certain skin condition. I only had dry skin, actually very dry skin, that was enough to put me on the defensive. I could only use stuff that didn't make me itchy, stretchy and dry.  So I just limited myself to very few things that I knew my skin could tolerate. Didn't even try to try out different things. I can actually count on my fingers, all the different body care stuff I used. Barring my Indian made sandalwood scented soap, my creations are the nicest smelling things I ever used. I can't even use FOs in my lotions, they make my legs itch. So yeah, it's a bit tough but we can survive . As far as eczema goes, it generally gets milder as you get older and with the wisdom you've gained by living your life will help you manage it better. The only medicine you might need is the OTC hydrocortisone cream for the occasional flare up, unless you have a severe one where you may need a prescription. But before that you can do so much to help your skin like avoiding the known triggers, using fragrance free products on the skin. You could even make your own body butter for daily use instead of buying, it would be 100 times better for your skin. It would nourish your skin and heal it. Body butter was the first thing I made, soaps came next.
But trying your stuff doesn't give you an accurate impression if you were to react because of your eczema. You may try to see if you can tolerate it, but if you don't, doesn't mean it's going to be bad for others also, as you probably know already.


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## Susie (Sep 24, 2015)

I am not saying you have to avoid scents forever.  Just avoid them until you get this current flare-up gone.  Then try ONE new thing at the time.  One new oil OR one new scent.  Use that for a week before you decide that it is safe.  Once you know it is safe, write it down and try another new thing.  Before long, you are going to have a list of recipes you love, and scents you know are safe.  Just hang in there and do it the slow, methodical way.  I would strongly suggest you look into trying some EOs that are well behaved just to be sure you can have some sort of scent that won't break you out.


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## Dharlee (Sep 24, 2015)

Susie said:


> I am not saying you have to avoid scents forever.  Just avoid them until you get this current flare-up gone.  Then try ONE new thing at the time.  One new oil OR one new scent.  Use that for a week before you decide that it is safe.  Once you know it is safe, write it down and try another new thing.  Before long, you are going to have a list of recipes you love, and scents you know are safe.  Just hang in there and do it the slow, methodical way.  I would strongly suggest you look into trying some EOs that are well behaved just to be sure you can have some sort of scent that won't break you out.



This makes so much sense to me. When I was trying to get food allergies sorted out this is exactly what I had to do with adding foods back to my diet one at a time. Same thing I did for my son when he was starting to eat solid foods. I gave them one at a time to make sure there was no reaction. This is just good sense albeit the slow train through Arkansas.


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## Susie (Sep 24, 2015)

LOL, yeah, I am an RN.  This is standard protocol for figuring out allergies/triggers for migraines.  Nothing I made up.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 24, 2015)

You guys are so nice, Ty all for the wealth of information and advice. I will look into getting some EOs to try for my own soaps, but if I'm gonna make them for others, I'm sticking with the yummy FOs that make things nice n smelly LOL

As to treating this most recent horrid outbreak of my eczema, I've been trying every suggestion anyone gives me. I've tried Epsom salts, which helped with itchiness and the burning sensation, but was drying over time, so gave that up. I've tried calamine lotion, which also helps with the itching etc, but doesn't seem to aid in clearing it up. I've tried otc creams, which did nothing but waste my money. I'm at my wits end with how to make this flair up go away. I'm about to resort to milk n oatmeal baths like I suffered through as a kid. Or oil baths, which I've used before. Neither is full effectual, but it beats the alternative. Anything to relieve the discomfort and get this gone I will try. I got some cortisone cream at the pharmacy tonight to try that.

I'm going to try to get to Wal-Mart tomorrow or Sunday so I can get more soap supplies, including aloe vera juice and vitamin E, so I can try making a batch with higher superfat and more skin nourishing oils.

Again, TY all for your help


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Sep 25, 2015)

As Susie said - stop trying to treat it WITH stuff, but rather stop using new things until you know the cause and stop using 1 existing thing in your life for a week or so until you work out what is causing it.


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## gigisiguenza (Sep 25, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> As Susie said - stop trying to treat it WITH stuff, but rather stop using new things until you know the cause and stop using 1 existing thing in your life for a week or so until you work out what is causing it.



TEG what has me very confused is that when this flair began, nothing had differed from my usual routine. I had not changed soap shampoo dish soap... nothing. So I'm not sure what the heck I could possibly stop using LOL. I started using my own soap in the hopes that it would help, and the first batch does indeed help some. I think everyone is right, though, and it has too much CO for me, so it's not helping as much as it could maybe. Until I make another batch of that recipe,with the adjustment to the CO, I figured I would try the cortisone cream as Susie suggested. 

It's very frustrating when you literally only use 3 products and out of the blue this happens. I have to shower and wash my hair, so those two have to stay, and I've begun wearing gloves to do dishes, to be safe. I'm very frustrated by the whole thing, believe me.

Tyvm for the suggestions, I really appreciate all the feedback and suggestions. I'm game to try anything if it will help


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## penelopejane (Oct 3, 2015)

My DH has eczema and a flare up can be caused by stress, pollen, grass, dirt left on his skin too long or just when he gets run down (I guess that's a stress too). 

Triggers to allergies are so difficult to pinpoint. 
He can use 100% EVOO soap with a little honey to his hearts content. No detergent, no fragrance. Annoyingly it takes a year to cure : )

Also he's sensitive enough to need a longer than normal cure time. 

How old is your first batch compared to your third batch? It may change a bit as it cures a bit longer.


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## Susie (Oct 3, 2015)

gigisiguenza said:


> It's very frustrating when you literally only use 3 products and out of the blue this happens. I have to shower and wash my hair, so those two have to stay, and I've begun wearing gloves to do dishes, to be safe. I'm very frustrated by the whole thing, believe me.



You probably "use" more products than you are aware of.  Here are a few off the top of my head:

Laundry detergent
Dryer sheets or fabric softener
Febreeze on upholstery
Pledge or other wood cleaner
Windex or other window cleaner
All multi surface cleaners or wipes
All hand washing soap you use when away from home
All cleaners used in your work environment
Paper towels (yes, I had a patient allergic to the paper towels)
Toilet paper (there are some toilet papers I can't use due to allergic reactions)

We are surrounded by items that could cause allergic reactions.  That is why it is so difficult to track down the causes.


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## gigisiguenza (Oct 4, 2015)

Saponifier said:


> I read a lot and unless a piece of information is pertinent to me or someone close to me, I tend to forget where I came across it.  So, I have no idea where I read this (or maybe I dreamt it), but I seem to remember reading that parsley can be irritating to some people.  I know that parsnip and carrots can cause problems and parsley's in the same family.  Just a thought.



I never knew that, TY.


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