# Clarity test for liquid bastille soap. Still safe?



## TamsJam (Jan 2, 2019)

I made some liquid bastille soap and the cook time was 3 hrs with stirring every 30 minutes. I did that and did the clarity test and it was cloudy. I cooked 30 minutes more and checked clarity still cloudy. 
 So I have 2 questions: 1. Is it cloudy because of the lye? It does not specify weather its 100% or 90%. 2. I cooked the soap paste all together for about 5 hours so is it safe? Seems to me the lye would be no longer active at that amount of cook time. Thanks in advance


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## DeeAnna (Jan 2, 2019)

Cloudiness can come from several different reasons.

Saponification is complete and there is too much superfat (not enough lye). The soap will be cloudy but not zappy.
Saponification is not fully complete. The soap will be cloudy AND still zappy.
Additives that cause cloudiness
Certain fats that cause cloudiness (jojoba being a common example, but even high stearic fats such as butters, lard, palm or tallow can cloud the soap)
Not using distilled water to make the soap

You've told us nothing about your recipe or method, so I don't have a clue what your particular issue might be. "Bastille" isn't helpful because it can pretty much mean whatever the soaper wants it to mean.

You don't need to cook that long, by the way. Hot process soap should be fully saponified and done in an hour, tops, unless you've done something wrong.


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## TamsJam (Jan 2, 2019)

Im sorry. I did the hot process method and my recipe is off the internet.


24 oz weight (680 grams) olive oil
16 oz weight (454 grams) coconut oil
9.35 oz weight (265 grams) Potassium hydroxide lye flakes
32 oz (4 cups | 907 grams) distilled water, for lye-solution
10 to 12 cups distilled water, to dilute, plus extra as needed
*Instructions*
*Make The Soap Paste*

Add the olive oil and coconut oil to a large, (6 quart minimum) crock pot. Turn the crock-pot on high.
While the oils are warming, put on your safety gloves and goggles, and carefully measure the potassium hydroxide lye into a stainless steel or pyrex bowl.
Measure the water into a medium stainless bowl or pyrex pitcher. Set the container with the water into your sink, then very carefully tip the lye flakes into the water. Stir to dissolve.
When the oils in the crockpot are warm, carefully tip the lye solution into the oils. Leave the crockpot on high.
Use an immersion blender to blend the oils and lye solution together. Immediately after adding the lye solution to the oils, blend for about 5 minutes, until the mixture looks uniformly opaque and begins to slightly thicken. For the next 30 minutes, come back and blend the soap paste about every 5 minutes. The mixture will get thicker and thicker, progressing through an icing texture to something like Elmer's glue.
*Cook Soap Paste*

When the soap mixture becomes too thick to blend with an immersion blender, lid the crock pot and cook the soap mixture for 3 hours on high.
Every 30 minutes or so, come back and fold and stir the soap paste with a heat-resistant silicone spatula or heavy wood spoon to ensure the soap paste cooks evenly.
As the soap cooks, it will become increasingly translucent, moving from a runny white liquid to a puffy taffy texture to, eventually, a yellowy-clear, thick, translucent gel.
*Test Soap Clarity*

After 3 hours, or once the paste looks fully translucent and gelled throughout, check the soap with a clarity test.
Measure out an ounce of soap paste (about a golf-ball sized blob will do it). Add 4 oz (1/2 cup) of boiling or very hot water to the soap paste. Stir gently until the soap paste is totally dissolved.
Allow the dilute soap to cool. If the soap is opaque, or if a scum of oils floats to the surface, continue cooking your soap paste for another hour before re-testing.
If the dilute soap is clear (it needn't be colorless, just translucent), proceed with dilution.
*Dilute the Soap Paste*

Add 10 cups water to the soap paste in the crockpot. Break up the soap paste into the water as best you can but don't worry about the paste dissolving fully.
Lid the crock pot and turn the heat to warm for 8 hours or overnight. If you happen to walk by, give the soap a stir to help it along but don't worry if you can't.
After 8 hours, if you notice chunks of remaining soap or thick skin of soap forming even after the chunks of soap dissolve, add another cup or two of water to further dilute the paste.
*Bottle Soap*

When your soap is fully dissolved with no chunks of soap paste remaining, ladle your dilute soap into a perfectly clean and dry 1-gallon glass or plastic jug.
I got frustrated and just cut the crock pot off and this morning I poured water in to dilute it and it has a kinda off smell, guess where it set all night. Can it be salvaged? Don't want to waste it.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 2, 2019)

Where did you get your KOH? That might be another useful clue.

KOH Purity ... superfat ... KOH wt
90% ... 0% ... 273 gram
90 ... 3 ... 264 <--- Looks like your recipe was calculated with these settings?
95 ... 0 ... 258
95 ... 3 ... 250

Don't get frustrated. The soap could very easily be fine or at least fixable.

Liquid soap typically has an odd soapy, slightly "chemically" smell. Some people are bothered by this and can detect it no matter what, but many of us mask it with a bit of scent and don't notice the soap smell after scent is added. At least that's true for me. Liquid soap shouldn't smell obviously rancid unless your oils were rancid to begin with.

Is this the source of your recipe and method? https://nwedible.com/how-to-make-diy-liquid-castile-soap/

Oh, and if you do a clarity test, it's important to use distilled water for that too.


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## mariabarry0 (Mar 2, 2020)

I used this same recipie and also ended up with cloudy greenish soap. Is this still good to use? It is not zappy. Is there any way to fix this besides letting the gel cook for longer? Mine was in the crock pot for probably 16hrs total. 6ish before dilution.


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## Jenburdess (Mar 31, 2021)

TamsJam said:


> Im sorry. I did the hot process method and my recipe is off the internet.
> 
> 
> 24 oz weight (680 grams) olive oil
> ...



How did this end up? I made the same recipe and have had a horrible time with it! It won’t pass the clarity test after a full day of cooking.


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## Jenburdess (Mar 31, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> Where did you get your KOH? That might be another useful clue.
> 
> KOH Purity ... superfat ... KOH wt
> 90% ... 0% ... 273 gram
> ...


What happens if you use tap water? Can i neutralize the soap with citric acid just to be safe? I make cold process all the time. Would curing the soap help at all? I got the soap to over 200F and it is clear like amber but doesn’t pass the clarity test. Thank you for your help!


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## Jenburdess (Mar 31, 2021)

mariabarry0 said:


> I used this same recipie and also ended up with cloudy greenish soap. Is this still good to use? It is not zappy. Is there any way to fix this besides letting the gel cook for longer? Mine was in the crock pot for probably 16hrs total. 6ish before dilution.



me too! Whatever happened to your soap?


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## DeeAnna (Mar 31, 2021)

There can be a number of reasons why a liquid soap isn't clear. If you've (over)cooked it for a whole day, I guarantee the saponification is completely over. In this case, cooking the soap even longer is pointless -- it's time to look at the other reasons for cloudiness.

The most common reason for cloudiness IF there is no zap, meaning saponification is over, is too much superfat. If you have made this EXACT recipe -- the SAME weights of ingredients -- then adding 3 grams of KOH should reduce the superfat by about 1%.

So in this case, you could thoroughly mix 3 g KOH into the paste, give it time to saponify (several hours to a day), and check for zap and check for clarity. If there's no zap but the soap is still cloudy, then add another 3 grams, etc.

If the soap paste is dry and hard to stir, you can dissolve the KOH in an equal or greater weight of distilled water and add the KOH solution to the paste. If the paste is fairly fluid, you can add dry KOH directly to the paste and mix in well. There's enough water in a fluid paste to dissolve the KOH. If you don't feel comfortable adding dry KOH, however, then by all means dilute it in water and mix the KOH solution into the paste.

If at any time in this process the soap stays zappy, give it some more time to saponify and then recheck for zap. If the paste remains zappy and the soap is still cloudy, then there's another reason for the cloudiness other than too much superfat.

Greenish color might be due to using greenish olive oil. Extra virgin is often greenish. Use regular (mild flavored) OO that's more yellow if you don't like the green tinge.


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## Jenburdess (Mar 31, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> There can be a number of reasons why a liquid soap isn't clear. If you've (over)cooked it for a whole day, I guarantee the saponification is completely over. In this case, cooking the soap even longer is pointless -- it's time to look at the other reasons for cloudiness.
> 
> The most common reason for cloudiness IF there is no zap, meaning saponification is over, is too much superfat. If you have made this EXACT recipe -- the SAME weights of ingredients -- then adding 3 grams of KOH should reduce the superfat by about 1%.
> 
> ...



Here’s something weird. Every clarity test I’ve done ends up cloudy but I tried slowly diluting some paste in my crockpot because it had cooked for so long it turns into a clear greenish liquidity gel. Is my tap water the problem? The ph of my water is between 8-9.


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## ResolvableOwl (Mar 31, 2021)

Jenburdess said:


> Is my tap water the problem?


Yes. Who told you that you can use tap water for clarity test? Tap water contains metal ions (calcium, magnesium) that make it hard (pure water has pH 7, and 8–9 means you definitely have some water hardness in there). Ca/Mg will form insoluble/turbid precipitates with _any_ soap (soap scum) – the clarity test for _any_ soap, be it as well made as possible, will always fail. You _have_ to use distilled water for clarity test.


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## Jenburdess (Mar 31, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Yes. Who told you that you can use tap water for clarity test? Tap water contains metal ions (calcium, magnesium) that make it hard (pure water has pH 7, and 8–9 means you definitely have some water hardness in there). Ca/Mg will form insoluble/turbid precipitates with _any_ soap (soap scum) – the clarity test for _any_ soap, be it as well made as possible, will always fail. You _have_ to use distilled water for clarity test.


 
Thank you! That is super helpful information. This is the first hot process liquid soap I have made. My cold process bar soap has never had any issues. The recipe I used didn’t make it clear that a clarity test could fail because of tap water. Thanks again!


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## ResolvableOwl (Mar 31, 2021)

For the same reason, tap water is a bad idea for any step in soapmaking. A liquid soap made with hard water will contain insoluble soap scum, and will 1. never be clear, and 2. always fail the clarity test (even with distilled water). This is mostly a cosmetic issue, except when you rely on the clarity test to determine saponification progress.
ETA: Chelators (EDTA, citrate, gluconate) might help fight clarity issues with soap scum in the soap itself (I have no experience with that).


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## Jenburdess (Mar 31, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> For the same reason, tap water is a bad idea for any step in soapmaking. A liquid soap made with hard water will contain insoluble soap scum, and will 1. never be clear, and 2. always fail the clarity test (even with distilled water). This is mostly a cosmetic issue, except when you rely on the clarity test to determine saponification progress.
> ETA: Chelators (EDTA, citrate, gluconate) might help fight clarity issues with soap scum in the soap itself (I have no experience with that).



Lesson learned for sure. This process took an enormous amount of time. I used a weak solution of citric acid, based on the paste’s weight, to neutralize any lye just in case. The zap test passed and the dilution is completely and was before the citric acid addition. I also found information that reaching a temp of 200-220 at the paste stage was also an indication that saponification was complete. Thanks so much for the help. To be on the safe side I’m getting some ph strips to check the dilution tomorrow.


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## ResolvableOwl (Apr 1, 2021)

Jenburdess said:


> I also found information that reaching a temp of 200-220 at the paste stage was also an indication that saponification was complete.


This is ambiguous, at best. If saponification can complete or not, does not depend on temperature (CP soapers would be very sad otherwise), but it solely depends on the amounts of oils and lye. If you are in doubt about either of them, then borax neutralisation is probably the only reliable technique to be on the safe side.

pH is a double-edged sword. Be sure that you understand this and this article before you draw conclusions from pH readings.


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## Jenburdess (Apr 1, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> This is ambiguous, at best. If saponification can complete or not, does not depend on temperature (CP soapers would be very sad otherwise), but it solely depends on the amounts of oils and lye. If you are in doubt about either of them, then borax neutralisation is probably the only reliable technique to be on the safe side.
> 
> pH is a double-edged sword. Be sure that you understand this and this article before you draw conclusions from pH readings.



Thank you! I ran everything through a lye calculator as well because of the failed clarity test. I started the dilution last night for half the batch of soap.  The diluted soap is completely  clear and a amber green color. The clarity test was throwing me off because the soap wasn’t zappy and all the calculations were correct for the ingredients used. Now I know that it was my water that was making the test fail. I did add a weak solution of citric acid based on the weight of the soap I diluted. Enough to bring the ph down by .5. Thanks for your help.


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## Professor Bernardo (Apr 1, 2021)

Jenburdess said:


> Thank you! That is super helpful information. This is the first hot process liquid soap I have made. My cold process bar soap has never had any issues. The recipe I used didn’t make it clear that a clarity test could fail because of tap water. Thanks again!


So you're stating that you used regular tap water for both the lye water and dilution water?  Yet the recipe you listed shows to use distilled water for both the lye solution and the paste dilution. 

A tip for easier dilution of the paste is to use Sodium Lactate at 3% of the paste weight along with the distilled dilution water.  The amount of distilled water listed seems to be quite a lot compared to the batch weight.  Next time start with about 7-8 cups of distilled water along with the Sodium Lactate to dilute the soap paste. 

Try to remember that all measurement should be by weight, not volume, but I'm sure that you know this already.  I always convert everything to grams for better accuracy.

Don't give up and hang in there!  We all have had batches that didn't work out quite right.  Perhaps a long sequester time will help.  For me with a couple of batches that wouldn't clear up it took about 3 months or so of sequestering to finally get clear.  However, if you used tap water for the dilution, it will more than likely never clear up due to the hardness of your tap water.


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## Jenburdess (Apr 1, 2021)

Professor Bernardo said:


> So you're stating that you used regular tap water for both the lye water and dilution water?  Yet the recipe you listed shows to use distilled water for both the lye solution and the paste dilution.
> 
> A tip for easier dilution of the paste is to use Sodium Lactate at 3% of the paste weight along with the distilled dilution water.  The amount of distilled water listed seems to be quite a lot compared to the batch weight.  Next time start with about 7-8 cups of distilled water along with the Sodium Lactate to dilute the soap paste.
> 
> ...



Thank you! I did use tap water. I do for all my cold process soap and never have any issues at all. A big reason I started making soap was to cut down on waste my family produces. I hate buying distilled water in the plastic jugs. The recipe I used had a lengthy section on water but didn’t stress enough, at least to me, that it could affect the clarity of the soap during the clarity test. The soap has had its final dilution and is completely clear and amber green. This is my second batch because I wasn’t going to let it beat me. My first batch got to the amber paste but wouldn’t pass a clarity test. I have SO MUCH soap now. Oh well


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## Quanta (Apr 1, 2021)

Jenburdess said:


> Thank you! I did use tap water. I do for all my cold process soap and never have any issues at all. A big reason I started making soap was to cut down on waste my family produces. I hate buying distilled water in the plastic jugs. The recipe I used had a lengthy section on water but didn’t stress enough, at least to me, that it could affect the clarity of the soap during the clarity test. The soap has had its final dilution and is completely clear and amber green. This is my second batch because I wasn’t going to let it beat me. My first batch got to the amber paste but wouldn’t pass a clarity test. I have SO MUCH soap now. Oh well


Using tap water to make CP soap is asking for DOS, which will mean batches of soap you can't even use. If you don't like buying plastic jugs, then at least refill them with RO water at a refilling station. That will still have minerals in it but it'll be far less than your tap water. Better yet, get an under-sink DI water system. Deionized water will have even less minerals in it and there are no plastic jugs involved at all.


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## AliOop (Apr 2, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Using tap water to make CP soap is asking for DOS, which will mean batches of soap you can't even use. If you don't like buying plastic jugs, then at least refill them with RO water at a refilling station. That will still have minerals in it but it'll be far less than your tap water. Better yet, get an under-sink DI water system. Deionized water will have even less minerals in it and there are no plastic jugs involved at all.


...or buy a cheap water distiller machine.


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## Quanta (Apr 2, 2021)

AliOop said:


> ...or buy a cheap water distiller machine.


That would be about the same price as a DI system, but it sits on the countertop. I guess it depends on where you have the room for it.


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 2, 2021)

This links takes you to a thread that demonstrates the clarity test:

*https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/clarity-test-add-eos-thicken-with-salt.83440/*


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## Zany_in_CO (Apr 2, 2021)

I'm coming in a little late to the party but I see a couple of problems with your basic recipe:





TamsJam said:


> 24 oz weight (680 grams) olive oil
> 16 oz weight (454 grams) coconut oil
> 9.35 oz weight (265 grams) Potassium hydroxide lye flakes
> 32 oz (4 cups | 907 grams) distilled water, for lye-solution
> ...


Always check any recipe you find on the internet (or even here on SMF) for accuracy. I use *SoapCalc*

Tick 90% KOH. Water to Lye Ratio should be 3 to 1 for most formulas. 0% SF for clarity











Your recipe calls for 9.35 oz KOH vs. 9.6 oz - this tells me your SF is higher than 0%.
Your recipe calls for 32 oz. water vs. 28.9 oz - this tells me you will need a longer cook.
- With an SF higher than 0% you can expect some unsaponified oil in your finished soap, which is not a bad thing, but may be what's causing the cloudiness.
- Excess water requires a longer cook time.

It's important to bring the batch to hard trace before beginning the cook. Although high % of olive oil requires a long cook, this is a fairly well-balanced combo and should have come together nicely in 3 hours or so. If not, it's best to turn it off, leave it over night. It will continue to saponify over time -- maybe a day or 2 or 3. Patience is the key.

As for the dilution water, weigh the paste and add enough water to make 40% soap to 60% water ratio. You will know the correct amount of dilution water needed when the batch forms a skin on top. Add a bit more water to incorporate the skin and it's done.

HTH


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## Professor Bernardo (Apr 8, 2021)

Jenburdess said:


> Thank you! I did use tap water. I do for all my cold process soap and never have any issues at all. A big reason I started making soap was to cut down on waste my family produces. I hate buying distilled water in the plastic jugs. The recipe I used had a lengthy section on water but didn’t stress enough, at least to me, that it could affect the clarity of the soap during the clarity test. The soap has had its final dilution and is completely clear and amber green. This is my second batch because I wasn’t going to let it beat me. My first batch got to the amber paste but wouldn’t pass a clarity test. I have SO MUCH soap now. Oh well


Why do you hate buying distilled water in plastic jugs?  Is it because of plastic waste?  
Distilled water is really inexpensive where I live... about $0.98 to $1.20 a gallon.  Our city recycles the plastic jugs as part of the trash pickup.

Sincerely, always use distilled water for all your soap recipes, regardless of whether or not it is cold process, hot process or liquid soap.

I hope the best for you in your future soap endeavors!  Regarding the extra soap you have... give some away to relatives, friends, etc.


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## Juggsy (Apr 23, 2021)

I know I'm new here (lurker for a long time) but I wanted to comment on this.

Firstly,  I agree distilled water is a MUST,  but if you don't like buying it or don't want the expense of buying equipment just distil it yourself.  I assume being a soaper you have a variety of stockpots? You only need a decent sized one (with a lid, domed is better), a stainless steel bowl (glass works too) and water. I would type it out but there's lots of detailed instructions available online. Even ones with drawings like THIS ONE

The other thing I need to say is there's an excellent scientific experiment I do without my primary (elementary for USA) school children about distilled water. You need two jars/glasses, two teaspoons, distilled water and a bit of soap paste.
Fill both jars 3/4 full with water - one with tap water,  one with distilled water.
Put a dab/blob/quarter teaspoon of soap paste on each teaspoon.
Mix one teaspoon in water that's distilled and the other one in glass with the tap water.
Stir. Observe.

You can actually take this further by including other waters, spring water etc.The first thing you will notice is the cloudiness. But there's lots more happening there too. 

The pH of liquid soap alone doesn't stop the growth of microbes (although it is a common myth that it does) so it is uber important to use distilled water. 

Tap water has lots of things that can go wrong. Someone already mentioned DOS but using tap water can accelerate trace, can oxidise the soap, it could cause microbial growth and it will most definitely leave soap scum. I know it sounds simple but the soap dissolved in water is a great way to visualise why it's important to use distilled water. My current year 5 class could teach you more, but I'm sure you're not interested and I really just wanted to share this simple experiment.


I'll sneak back to my corner now and go back to lurking another 18 months before commenting again. Although it's taken me this long to register and it was easier than I thought it'd be!


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