# Ohhh DeeAnnnnnaaaaa!  Come out and play!



## MzMolly65 (Feb 13, 2014)

DeeAnna .. my soaping guru, I have a question for you.

If I want to HP a soap and keep one oil from being all eaten by the lye is there a magic number or math formula for knowing how much oil the lye needs "before" adding in the last oil???

I think SAP values have something to do with this but I'm a bit lost.

How does leaving one oil out until the end effect the overall recipe?  I understand the idea that leaving one out means it's the superfat but can it effect the way a soap acts?

Do my questions make sense?


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## songwind (Feb 13, 2014)

IANDA (I Am Not DeeAnna) but I think I can answer this one.

Do your soap calc with all your oils besides the extra fat you want to add at the end. Do a small (or even zero if you're feeling brave) superfat percentage.

Wait until the soap has gone completely through gel phase and doesn't zap/passes your litmus or phenol test and then add the bonus oil at the end.

It's not  complicated when you remember that what you're doing is making soap out of oil A (or oil mixture A) and adding oil B as an additive.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2014)

Yes, you make perfect sense, MsMolly. And, yes, you're right to think the saponification values are an important part of the answer. There are a couple of ways to handle superfat for hot process. 

In your case, I gather you want a certain weight of oils to be turned into soap AND you want a specific different oil to remain unsaponified -- remain as superfat -- in the finished soap. If I'm on track with you, then I'd handle it this way. Bear with me, since I think you already have the general idea, but I don't want to leave room for confusion, so I'll go through all the steps in my thinking -- 

I'm going to assume you want to make soap using a total of, say, 1000 grams of oils to fit a particular mold. I'm also assuming you want add enough of your special oil to make an 8% superfat. 

So the first question to answer: How many grams of oil do you need to set aside to be the superfat? In other words, what is 8% of 1000 grams? 

1000 * 0.08 = 80 grams of superfat.

Next question: How many grams of oil need to be turned into soap?

1000 g total - 80 g superfat = 920 grams of soaping oils.

Figure your soap recipe based on the 920 grams of the oils that need to become soap. You don't want these soaping oils to be left over as superfat, so you could choose a zero % superfat for this recipe. I'm personally a little uncomfortable about that because I truly hate making lye-heavy soap, so I might choose a tiny superfat -- maybe 1% -- just to err on the safe side. But something low -- zero or 1% -- whatever you're comfortable with. Keep in mind the superfat will be coming later, so the soap will be skin-safe in the end.

Now you know the correct amounts of NaOH and water that you need to saponify just your soaping oils. Make your HP soap with those soaping oils. When your soap is cooked and tests safe, then add the superfat oil to finish the project.

"...leaving one out means it's the superfat but can it effect the way a soap acts?..."

It could, I suppose. The way most soap recipes are made, the actual superfat is whatever oils are left over after the lye is done "eating". In your case, your separate superfat oil might have characteristics that could affect the soap differently than if this oil were just part of the soaping oils. 

To find that out, you'd have to make one recipe with the oils used all together as the soaping oils ... and a second recipe with the special oil added after saponification ... and see how the two versions are different. If you do this, be sure to run the "all together" recipe through a calculator with your desired final superfat (the 8% I used in this example). It is very likely that the lye weight for the "all together" version will be different than the lye weight for the "separate superfat" version.

I hope I've made sense and answered your questions. If not, please let me know, MsMolly....

edit: Songwind and I are singin' the same song!


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 13, 2014)

Thank you both to H-WIND (he-who is not DeeAnna) and DeeAnna.  I love both explanations and yes, you both made sense.  It's a funky recipe with some expensive oils so I'm afraid to mess around too much but I guess good science will require it.  I think I'll do as you suggest and make two batches, one all in and one with special oil as superfat.


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## grayceworks (Feb 13, 2014)

I read a great tutorial, which I can't find at the moment, but it told how to figure  how much oil even more precisely, depending on how precise you want to be, taking into account the SAP values of a given oil. For example, 8% SF with Monoi oil will be much different than 8% SF with Jojoba oil. 

Like DeeAnna mentioned above, figure your recipe without the SF oil figured in, at a low or 0% SF. (I use 1% to be on the safe side)  

Write down that lye amount. 

Now, if you want a SF of 8%, then you would take 1 minus 8%, so .92, and divide your lye amount by that. (This gives you the lye amount to completely saponify your original recipe plus a SF amount, but you're not doing that, so don't worry) ( 1-.08=.92  and  4.07/.92=4.42)

So now you have a larger lye number and your original smaller lye number, right? 
Subtract the smaller number from the larger one. 

So say it took 4.07oz lye for my 1% SF recipe. And I do 8% SF. Then the larger number would be 4.42. So the difference is .35 (4.42-4.07=.35)

Now go on soapcalc and check the SAP of whichever oil you want to use. For Monoi, it's .182 and for Jojoba it's .066

Take that number you subtracted above, the .35 in our example, and divide it by the SAP. This will tell you the exact amount of that specific oil to use to achieve your SF (.35/.182=.52 or .35/.066=5.3)

*For Monoi, it would be 0.52oz. For Jojoba, however, it would be a whopping 5.30 oz to achieve the same SF percent!!! *

Obviously, this can make a big difference in both the feel of the soap, and in your pocketbook!  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Summary: 

1) Figure your recipe with low SF and write down that lye number. (4.07)

2) Decide a SF percent, and subtract it from 1 to get a decimal percent left. (1-.08=.92)

3) Divide your lye amount by that decimal number. (4.07 divided by .92=4.42)

4) Subtract the two numbers. (4.42-4.07=.35)

I always write this number on my recipe page, as I use the same numbers all the time for the rest of the recipe, and then only just change up my SF.  

5) Divide this little number by the SAP value for the oil you want. (.35 divided by .182=.52oz monoi)
This will give the amount of SF oil to use after cooking your recipe. 

Don't forget to actually ADD it to the batch. (I have done that  lol -- got it in the mold, went to clean up, and realized there was a little dish of oil still sitting there... oops)*


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Actually, the tutorial I saw was more in an equation form, which I have broken down a bit further, so I hope I made it easy to understand? It's 5 steps, and if you just follow them one at a time, you will get the math right.  

For me anyhow, it makes it super-easy to change up a HP recipe just by altering the SF I add afterwards. 

PS: You can double-check your numbers in soapcalc by plugging in your numbers including the SF, and they should match up at the desired SF % (the smaller number) and also at the 0% or 1% or whatever (the larger number)


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2014)

You raise a good point, GrayceWorks. I think your method is mathematically more correct. Here are the links you were wondering about:

http://curious-soapmaker.com/superfat-vs-lye-discount.html
and 
http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-calculate-the-hot-process-superfat.html


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## grayceworks (Feb 13, 2014)

Yes!!! That's the one.  Thank you! 

Question for you, since you seem to be better at numbers than I am though, 

Why on my calculator, does 4.07 / .92 come out .03 higher than 4.07 + 8% ??? Granted, in ounces it's not a huge deal, but it bugs me. They should be the same, right? I'm sure there's some reasonable explanation...

I just stick with dividing by the decimal place instead, for consistency.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 13, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> I hope I made it easy to understand? It's 5 steps, and if you just follow them one at a time, you will get the math right.



THANKS!!   I think *gulp* .. it will take reading that a few times to make easy sense of it but I do appreciate it.


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## grayceworks (Feb 13, 2014)

I played with it for a few hours over and over until it stuck in my head. I figured I'd better get it down, since I seem to prefer HP, and I want to be able to use SF without destroying the special oils I want to play with.  And I want to know that it's exactly how I want it to be, not what the lye decides it will  be lol. 

Follow the summary part I outlined. Above that is all the explanations for the steps, but just follow the summary steps one at a time. 

Smaller explanation: 
 get your lye amount, get the percent of SF and convert to decimal, divide by the decimal for the SF, subtract the two numbers, divide the result by the oil SAP. 

Kinda like learning to use soapcalc at first. I spent hours and hours with that until I figured it out thoroughly. Hmm. I still spend hours and hours with it though.... Come to think of it... I have a recipe idea.... hmm


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## grayceworks (Feb 13, 2014)

PS - I'd be happy to double-check numbers for ya if you want to try it.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2014)

"...Why on my calculator, does 4.07 / .92 come out .03 higher than 4.07 + 8% ???..."

I'll show you the same equations rewritten so they look more similar to each other:

First one: 4.07 / ( 1 - 0.08 )  

Second one: 4.07 * ( 1 + 0.08 )

Can you see the difference now?

If the saponification value for all of the oils was a constant number, Songwind's and my method and the Curious Soapmaker's (CS) method would give you the same numbers. But sap values can be quite different for the different oils in a recipe, and the CS's method accounts for this difference, whereas S&D's method does not.

I am following the math (inst and amongst breaks from work), but I have not yet come up with a really good way to explain it at the moment. Sometimes DOING the math and EXPLAINING the math are quite different critters, and I'm drawing a bit of a blank on this one at the moment.

Give me a bit to digest -- or does someone else have a good explanation to share? I'm certain I'm not the only geek in the group! :crazy:


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## grayceworks (Feb 13, 2014)

Yeah, that's why I was using CS's method for calculating for specific oils for after the cook, since I do a LOT of HP soaping. 

I just couldn't figure out why it was divided by  1-.xx instead of adding the percent, but the actual difference in the final value is so negligible it doesn't matter except that I WANT TO KNOW. lol  It only makes about a tenth of a gram difference in the outcome of the final calculation though. lol


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2014)

Here's a no-math way to do CS's method of figuring superfat added after the HP cook. 

1. Figure out the oils you want to use in your basic recipe. CS uses this example in her tutorials (see links above), so I'm going to do likewise:

Palm 4.8 oz (soaping fat)
CO 4.8 oz (soaping fat)
Olive 11.2 oz (soaping fat)
Superfat at 10% with shea butter -- this is the "special oil" that will not be turned into soap.

2. Go to soapcalc (or your favorite soap recipe calc) armed with your recipe. 

3. Enter the soaping fats into SoapCalc. In this example, that would be the weights of the palm, CO, and olive. 

4. Set the superfat at zero (or whatever minimum you're comfortable with). 

5. Calculate the lye weight and write it down. This is the lye you will use in your recipe -- it is the amount of lye that will saponify all of your soaping fats. In this palm-CO-olive-shea example, SoapCalc says the amount of lye needed is 3.078 ounces. 

6. Next figure how much superfatting oil is needed to give the right amount of superfat. First step is to change the superfat to the % you really want -- that would be 10% in this example. 

7. Add the superfat oil (that would be shea in this example) to your ingredients list and guess a reasonable weight. 

What's a good guess? Well, the superfat is supposed to be 10% so let's try that. We've got 20.8 ounces of fats so far (4.8 + 4.8 + 11.2 = 20.8 ounces), so I'm going to make a first guess of about 10% of the oil weight (20.8 * 0.10 = 2.08 ounces). Enter 2.08 ounces of shea into the recipe and calculate. If you're following along in SoapCalc, you should see an answer of 3.009 ounces of lye for an added 2.08 ounces of shea. Not good enough! We want the recipe to use 3.078 ounces of lye so all of the soaping oils ... and just the soaping oils ... are saponified. 

So let's make another guess -- try 2.5 ounces of shea and recalculate the recipe. SoapCalc comes back with 3.057 ounces of lye. Need More Shea! So let's raise the shea to 2.8 ounces and recalculate. 

SoapCalc says 3.092 oz lye. Too much! Back off the shea a bit. Check again. Continue to tweak the shea weight until SoapCalc says the lye is 3.078 ounces or as close as you can come to that. Hint: Try 2.67 ounces shea. SoapCalc will return an answer of 3.077 ounces of lye. 2.67 oz of shea is also CS's answer for this example. Good enough!

8. Summarize your recipe. The example recipe I've been doing here would look like this:

Palm 4.8 oz
CO 4.8 oz
Olive 11.2 oz
Lye 3.078 oz
Water ??? oz based on your preferences
Shea 2.67 oz to be added after the cook
Superfat 10%

****

Here's another recipe to try if you want to practice either the SoapCalc trial and error method or SC's math-based method. You should get the same answer either way. This is a horrible recipe, by the way, but I've chosen these fats because their saponification values vary a lot.

Coconut oil 200 g (soaping fat)
Lard 200 g (soaping fat)
Olive 200 g (soaping fat)
Superfat at 8% with meadowfoam seed oil

To help get you started, SoapCalc tells me the lye needed to saponify just the soaping fats at zero superfat is 91.979 grams. Is that what you get? See what you come up with for grams of meadowfoam superfat! An answer to the nearest 0.1 gram will be plenty good.

****


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 13, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> To help get you started, SoapCalc tells me the lye needed to saponify just the soaping fats at zero superfat is 91.979 grams. Is that what you get? See what you come up with for grams of meadowfoam superfat! An answer to the nearest 0.1 gram will be plenty good.



That's what I got and for Meadowfoam I got 66.3 grams.  I'm following along physically but not really sure if I'm following along mentally.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2014)

PERFECT! WHooooo, girl, you did it! 

I understand the problem of feeling foggy about this. It's not a neat, tidy, straightforward problem to solve -- even I missed the point until Grayce steered us back in the right direction. Either a fair bit of algebra or a fair bit of trial and error.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 13, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> I understand the problem of feeling foggy about this. It's not a neat, tidy, straightforward problem to solve



Yes, and I'm struggling with wanting to know more.  It's like driving a car, I can know how to drive but I also need to know the rules of the road.  In this case I'm driving but don't understand the rules of the road yet.

And a big thank you to Grayceworks for helping with this.  

Did either of you take further education that's helping with all this?  I have a college education but sadly dropped out of Chem class in high school.  It's coming back to bite me in the arse now.  I'm learning all I can about soap through reading but if there were science classes that would help I'd be signing up pronto.


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## grayceworks (Feb 14, 2014)

Never took chemistry at all. I did Physics freshman year, then took my GED and started graphic design school. So I'm sure I missed out on some stuff... I am loving DeeAnna's chemistry explanations! 

My education in soaping has been books, online, youtube, and here on SMF, and of course, trial and error. 

Sometimes you just have to follow the steps over and over and suddenly the reasons for the steps will click and make sense. 

When I was doing that math over and over to get it in my head, I actually was using the method DeeAnna just outlined to double-check my math, going in and plugging  my results into soapcalc and seeing if it came up with the same lye amount for that amount of SF oils. But mostly I just kept memorizing the math until I understood it. And I didn't  understand it fully until I'd made a few batches and kept calculating and recalculating. 

Then it clicked, I was just taking the difference in lye amounts needed for a 1% SF and whichever SF percent I wanted, and dividing that by the SAP for the oil I wanted to use, to get the amount of oil. 

I still have it written on the inside cover of my recipe book though, so I can make sure I don't miss any numbers when I'm calculating for a new recipe. All my existing recipes, I wrote down the final amounts for all my favorite SF oils.  I also made a page listing all the SAP values for my favorite oils so I don't have to keep referring back to soapcalc over and over which is a pain on my little tablet. lol


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## DeeAnna (Feb 14, 2014)

Um, well, I have graduate degrees in engineering -- so, yes, lots of chemistry, physics, and math. I also taught math and science at our local community college for 10 years. The teaching experience is probably more help to me on SMF. Being able to explain math and science clearly is quite different than being able to do the math and science well. 

What I know to be true for me is that having a project (such as soap making!) is a strong incentive to learn more about science, algebra, or even calculus. Math and science are far too abstract for many people ... until they take on a project they want to do well. Suddenly the math or science starts to seem useful and the person finds a reason to learn. For example, I had to take a year and a half of calculus as an undergrad. Got fine grades, but I just learned it in the abstract and I didn't have a reason to really use it and "get" it. Fast forward 15 years to grad school and a really interesting class (to me, at least!) about water flow in underground aquifers. Calculus required! Because I was interested, I dug into re-learning calculus and realized it was could be really useful.

Sleeping on this was helpful. I'm writing an detailed answer that I hope will give more perspective on the whys and wherefores of this problem we're talking about. Should be done later today, and I'll post it in this thread. More laterz!


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## Lin (Feb 14, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> Yes, and I'm struggling with wanting to know more.  It's like driving a car, I can know how to drive but I also need to know the rules of the road.  In this case I'm driving but don't understand the rules of the road yet.


I learned to drive in fields for work at a barn before I was 15/16. When I was learning how to drive on the road I said something about already knowing how to drive, and my dad said "you know how to operate a car. You don't know how to drive yet." And I've always really liked that analogy, and have even morphed a bit to use with teaching riding lessons.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 14, 2014)

Lin said:


> I learned to drive in fields for work at a barn



That's where I learned to drive .. farm kid during hay season and all that.  Then I moved out and went to the big city .. OMG .. I did NOT know how to drive at all.  

That's how I feel with this particular soap math/question.  I'm making soap but I definitely don't know how to MAKE SOAP!  

I'm trying to understand why the required lye weight would go down when the superfat oil is added into the calculator?   and why do we need to do that calculation at all?  Why not just do the calc on the oils we want to saponify and add the superfat in at the end without fussing with the lye?

My head says .. if I just add the oil in at the end without adjusting the lye the way we are, my soap will be a greasy mess .. am I correct on that much?


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## DeeAnna (Feb 14, 2014)

Patience, MzMolly -- I'm workin' on it!

I learned to drive a stick shift car on the streets of my tiny western Iowa hometown. Stalled the poor Chevy out I don't know how many times as I tried to get my clutch foot and my gas foot coordinated. It was awful! I practiced alone one day until I GOT IT. I wouldn't do this with my dad in the car, cuz me and my dad were like oil and water when he first tried to teach me to drive. Too high of expectations in too short of a time. I had to teach myself at first until I got a clue. After that, driving with him in the passenger's seat was okay -- I was over the hump of figuring things out and could handle his high expectations.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 14, 2014)

I think I get it - 

So I take my batch size (1kg for ease) and work out 5% of that (50g).  

Make a calc based on a 950gm batch (1kg - 50g) WITH OUT my SF fat but with a modest SF for errors, say 2%.

This gives me the info I need to make the 950gm batch to which I add my SF fat after the cook, making it a 1kg batch with a 7% SF (2% from the error correction, 5% from my real SF fat)

Do I get a credit or demerit?


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 14, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Do I get a credit or demerit?



ooo ooo .. teacher!!! teacher!!! .. raises hand.

I think you're close Gent but I don't think it's 100% correct.  

So let me see if I've got it now.

You soap calc the batch with the main oils (say OO and CO) leaving out the special oil you want as superfat (lets say SB) and with superfat entered as 1% or so and you write down that lye number.  

Then .. rather than just put the SB in at the end of the cook .. you have to put the numbers back in soap calc .. this time INCLUDE the SB and enter your superfat as you want it (8% or whatever) but watch the lye number.  It won't be the same as your first lye number.

So then you adjust your SB weight up and down until you get the lye number that matches the original lye number you wrote down earlier.

That's the amount of oils and lye you'll use in the cook, keeping out the superfat oil until the end.

Here's my example math using DeeAnna's method in Soap calc:

I entered 1000g, left water at default 38%, superfat at 1% and entered 500g of OO and 500G of CO .. Soap calc gave me a lye number of 157.765

Then, I entered, 38% water, superfat 8%, OO 500g, CO 500g and guessed a SB g weight of 200 g.  Soap calc gives me a lye number of170.093 but I need to make that match the previous lye number.

I kept adjusting the weight of the SB until I got 94.5g of SB and a lye number of 157.706g. I stopped there.

Soooo .. when I cook up my batch I use 500g of OO and 500g of CO and the original lye of 157.765 and after the cook when it's not zappy I add the 94.5g of SB.

Is that right Teach? Or maybe I'll be getting the demerit LOL!!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 14, 2014)

A+ grade, MsMolly! Well done ... and bonus points for the awesome explanation!

My dear Gent ... you used S&D's method, but try again with MsMolly's method or CS and Grayce's method. I think they're spot on.

My stepson who's visiting this weekend, my sweet hubby, and I just got done with a pleasant evening eating soft tacos/burritos and playing 500. I haven't forgotten about y'all ... but family came first tonight.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 14, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> but family came first tonight.



.. as they should.  Thanks for stopping in long enough to grade the papers!  LOL

More questions arise for anyone who's done this .. what happens to the oil when it's added in after the cook?  Will it still mix in to become part of the soap or will it sit separately like some surface oil slick?

I know I'll find out when I try this but I'm curious what to expect.


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## grayceworks (Feb 15, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> .. as they should.  Thanks for stopping in long enough to grade the papers!  LOL
> 
> More questions arise for anyone who's done this .. what happens to the oil when it's added in after the cook?  Will it still mix in to become part of the soap or will it sit separately like some surface oil slick?
> 
> I know I'll find out when I try this but I'm curious what to expect.



*MzMolly --* Yay! You got it! 

If it's a solid oil, I usually melt it first, to let it mix in easier, but in general it will mix in just fine, with a spatula or possibly a whisk, same as mixing in your scents, and it will actually make your cooked soap batter a bit easier to get into the mold too. Don't mix in too much air, and don't let it cool too much while you mix, but just mix the oil in thoroughly and get it in the mold.  

*DeeAnna --* Enjoy family time!  It's a precious thing. 
And also, awesome that you're able to teach! I am a terrible teacher. I tend to just take over and be like "Here, let me do it" lol I am too impatient and too easily frustrated. lol

*Gent -- *with the CS method, you've got your lye amount necessary to saponify your main oils at 1% or whichever low SF number you chose. That's the lye amount your recipe is going to actually use. 

When you divide that amount by the .92 or whatever decimal equivalent represents how much SF you want (in the example, 8% ) then it gives you the higher lye amount that would have been needed if you wanted to completely saponify ALL your oils, not just  your main recipe oils. 

Ok, so you take the difference between those two lye amounts, and that is the tiny little amount of lye that would have been needed to saponify your specific amount of superfat oils. 

So if you take that little number, and divide it by the SAP number of a given oil, it tells you how much oil _would have been _saponified by that amount of lye, if you had used that amount of lye. 

But since you're *not* using that little extra bit of lye, you're *discounting* it, then that amount of oil is superfat. 

You can see how different the amounts of some oils would be at 8% SF by taking that same little extra lye number and dividing it by a bunch of different SAP numbers to see what you come up with. Try it!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 15, 2014)

Marvelous!  Thanks everyone


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2014)

Here is my belated explanation. I'm going to use this recipe as an example:

Coconut oil 200 g (soaping fat)
Lard 200 g (soaping fat)
Olive 200 g (soaping fat)
Meadowfoam seed oil 66 g (superfat)
NaOH 92.0 g
Water as needed for your preference

Now if you've been following the entire thread, we found, using Grayce and CS's method, that 66 g of meadowfoam added after the HP cook represents an 8% superfat for this recipe. Huh? What's that? If I take 8% of 666 g, that is 53.4 g, not 66 g!!! (The math: (200 + 200 + 200 + 66) * 0.08 = 53.4) Where in the heck is that 66 g coming from -- that's 10% of the total fats! 

Yep, you're right ... that's 10% of the FATS. But superfat is all about the LYE, not the fat.

****

Let's take a step back for a moment and look at this recipe as a CP soap, where all of the fats are mixed together before the lye is added. The superfat in this case is whatever fat is left over after the lye gets done "eating". The math is simple because all of the fats are mixed together, and the saponification value (SV) of the mixed fat is just one averaged number. 

In the example recipe, the average SV is 0.150 grams of NaOH per gram of mixed fat. When made as a "mixed fat" CP soap, 8% of the mixed FAT in the recipe uses 8% of the LYE. So if we want 8% of the fat to be unsaponified, we just use 8% less lye than is needed to saponify all of the fat. The first picture is a diagram of how this works.

This is exactly what soapcalc does when you set the lye discount for a recipe at anything other than zero. And this is the method that Songwind and I first proposed in this thread. It works fine for CP soap. This method also works find for HP soap where all the fat is mixed together in the beginning, just like CP soap. With these "mixed fat" methods, the superfat left over is just what's left over from the original fat mixture.

***

The second diagram shows how much lye each fat needs to saponify. The CO is 30% of the fat, but it needs a whopping 37% of the lye to saponify. The meadowfoam is 10% of the fat in the recipe, but it uses only 8% of the total lye.

****

Now let's assume the example recipe is made using the "add a special fat after the cook" kind of HP method. The superfat is then just that one special fat, not a mixture of all the fats in the recipe.

The first step is to figure out AT ZERO SUPERFAT, how much of the special fat will consume 8% of the total lye weight. Because the saponification value is different for each fat, the % of the lye used varies from fat to fat -- the second picture shows what's going on for the example recipe.

I want to point out here that the superfat calculated is always based on the weight of LYE required to saponify the superfat. This is just as true when calculating the superfat for the simple "mixed fat" CP and HP methods (above) as it is for this more complicated "add a special fat after the cook" HP method.

If a soap maker is creating a new recipe using the "add a special fat after the cook" HP method, she (or he) won't know the weight of the special fat. Because she doesn't know the weight of the special fat, she doesn't know the total weight of the fats and doesn't know the total lye weight. UGH! 

What information would the soap maker know? She would know the desired superfat percentage, the weights of the soaping fats, the specific "special fat" to be added, and the saponification values of all the fats. There is enough information to solve the problem, but the solution is messy -- it will require Grayce's algebra or my trial-and-error solution to find the weight of the "special fat".

Once the "special fat" weight is known, we can add up the weight of all the oils to get the total weight. We also know the lye amount to saponify ALL the oils at ZERO superfat, but that's really not needed anymore. Throw out that number and refigure the lye to saponify ONLY the soaping oils at ZERO (or very low) superfat. Make the soap with the soaping oils and that amount of lye. Add the correct weight of the "special fat" after the cook, and you're done!

****

Okay, let me know if this makes sense!


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 15, 2014)

DeAnna, I was able to follow Gracey's equations, but not yours! 

Now, I do have a very basic question, one that (to me) affects how one approaches the question. When we're talking about an 8% superfat, do we mean...

A) An extra 8% of fats on top of the amount to be saponified, leaving us with a total of 108% fats for the recipe,

or

B) 8% of the TOTAL number of fats in the recipe, meaning only 92% are saponified?

Those will leave you with slightly different amounts of fat in the superfat, and will change the way you approach figuring out what that "8%" is.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 15, 2014)

FlybyStardancer said:


> When we're talking about an 8% superfat, do we mean...
> 
> A) An extra 8% of fats on top of the amount to be saponified, leaving us with a total of 108% fats for the recipe,
> 
> ...



:shock:  oh my ..


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 15, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> Okay, let me know if this makes sense!



It feels like being in Church .. I really don't know exactly why I'm supposed to kneel now but this is when you kneel .. so I'm kneeling  :wave:

In other words I understand the mechanics of it and how to accomplish it but not the science behind the why and how of it.


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 15, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> :shock:  oh my ..



Do I overthink things too much? Maybe...


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2014)

Star -- You can look at this problem from either direction, as long as your math is correct throughout. I'm choosing to look at the superfat as a portion of the whole. That is also the way Grayce and CS are looking at it too.

Total fat weight = Soaping fat weight(s) + Superfat weight

Total lye weight = Lye wt. needed to saponify each soaping fat + Lye wt. to saponify the superfat

Lye weight needed to saponify a fat = Weight of fat * Saponification value of the fat


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2014)

Sometimes when I'm teaching a concept to students, I don't present all the detailed whys and wherefores right off the bat. We just focus on the basics. Once the basics are down, I add more layers of information to create a more accurate picture. If you and I could work together in person, MsMolly, I might be able to work with you to do that because I could understand better what is confusing you. As it is, the lag time in communication, the lack of face to face interaction, and the limitations of the printed word are failing me.

I also just read that you broke your foot earlier this week. Yowser -- I hope your not too miserable!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2014)

Here's an analogy that might help. I hope, anyway....

You have 9 friends over, and you want to buy enough food to feed them and yourself. You figure the 5 guys are going to eat 2 hamburgers apiece. The 5 girls (including you) will all eat 1 burger apiece. So 15 burgers, right? But you make a mistake and make only 13 burgers for the party! 

So who is going to go hungry? One of the guys might not get his two burgers. Or two of the girls each might not get one. Either way, someone is going hungry. 

So, okay, pretend the guys are a high saponification value (SV) fat like coconut oil, and each of the guys wants to eat two burger's worth of lye before he's satisfied (or saponified). The girls are a low SV fat like meadowfoam -- they each need only one burger's worth of lye to be full. 

Given that your "soap party" has 10 people in it, they would like to eat 15 lye burgers, and you've only made 13 lye burgers. What's going to happen -- Who's not going to eat?  How are you going to solve this problem without making someone unhappy?

If one guy's worth of coconut oil comes late to the party after everyone else is done eating, you will have enough lye burgers for everyone else. If two girls' worth of meadowfoam come late instead, you'll also be okay. That's not a bad strategy if you have friends who are often fashionably late. This would be your "add the special fat after the cook" method of HP.

Another way to stretch your 13 lye burgers is to frantically make each of the burgers a little bit smaller, so you end up with 15 downsized burgers to feed everyone. The coconut oil guys and the meadowfoam girls all get something to eat, but each person doesn't get quite as much lye burger as he or she would prefer. This is closer to the "mixed fat all goes in the pot" method.


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 15, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> Star -- You can look at this problem from either direction, as long as your math is correct throughout. I'm choosing to look at the superfat as a portion of the whole. That is also the way Grayce and CS are looking at it too.
> 
> Total fat weight = Soaping fat weight(s) + Superfat weight
> 
> ...



See, this matches up with what was going on in my head. I have no idea why I was getting all twisted around and confused in post #28. 

And to get the weight of the superfat in the third equation, you would do just a little algebraic reorganizing to put the SF oil's lye weight and the oil's SAP value on the same side.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2014)

"...you would do just a little algebraic reorganizing..."

Yep, you're right, and it's obvious you know enough algebra to do this without a lot of tutoring. But many people are uncomfortable or unfamiliar with algebra. If I can help folks reach their goals, even if the methods I suggest or the examples I give avoid the use of algebra, then I'll sure give it a try.


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 15, 2014)

I guess it's all those math and science classes I took. LOL I just 'see' things better as equations than huge blocks of text. 

And I still like to write out my calculations by hand, just to make sure I'm following the steps properly. It's the only think I like to write by hand--everything else is digitized!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2014)

I honestly have to say I don't think I'm doing a very good job explaining this one. Rather bummed by that.... :-(


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## grayceworks (Feb 16, 2014)

FlybyStardancer said:


> Now, I do have a very basic question, one that (to me) affects how one approaches the question. When we're talking about an 8% superfat, do we mean...
> 
> A) An extra 8% of fats on top of the amount to be saponified, leaving us with a total of 108% fats for the recipe,
> 
> ...




Like DeeAnna mentioned, the SF amount has to do with HOW MUCH OIL THE LYE WILL SAPONIFY rather than being based on a % of oils in the recipe. It is in reality, not an excess of oils, but a discount on the lye. 

Which is why in the equation, you are taking the original lye amount and giving it 8% more, and finding the difference between the two amounts. that difference is the 8% of lye that you will use to figure out how much oil you need.

Although your question is a lot like my question earlier, which I'll figure out how to re-word in a minute.


OKAY, here goes. 

Also, I reread the CS page, and I understand now why she used LYEAMT/(1-.XX) instead of LYEAMT + X%. The second one assumes that the LYEAMT is the 100% needed to do the whole recipe. Whereas we do not know that amount yet, because we don't know how much our special SF oil will weigh yet. And yet we can't figure out that weight unless we know the total lye amount. Convoluted, yes? lol

Because the CS says we are adding our special oil representing X% of the lye to saponify ALL the oils fully, meaning that the base recipe oils represent the remainder. So if we are wanting to add enough oils to cause an 8% lye discount, then the amount of lye needed to saponify the WHOLE recipe, is 8% plus 92% to make 100% of the amount of lye for the whole recipe. 

But we don't know the whole recipe yet, because we don't know how much the SF oil will weigh.

So we have to find the lye amount for the base oils instead, which will only be the 92% of the total lye amount. Once we know THAT lye amount, we can find out how much the 8% of the lye amount is to make up the full 100%. Once we know that 8%, then we can see how much oil that will saponify. 

So, it's 100% minus the percentage we want to not be saponified, is the percentage of lye used in our base recipe. NOT 100% plus an additional percentage. 

THAT is the difference I was trying to figure out, and I have no idea if I've made a mess of the explanation or not, but I TOLD Y'ALL I am NOT a teacher! lol

(this is the point where I would say "just do the steps and get the answer" and "because I said so" lol)


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## DeeAnna (Feb 16, 2014)

"...So, it's 100% minus the percentage we want to not be saponified, is the percentage of lye used in our base recipe. NOT 100% plus an additional percentage. ..."

Yep, I agree. You hit the nail perfectly on the head, Grayce. But it's awfully hard to explain in a way that is clear to others, isn't it???


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 16, 2014)

> So we have to find the lye amount for the base oils instead, which will  only be the 92% of the total lye amount. Once we know THAT lye amount,  we can find out how much the 8% of the lye amount is to make up the full  100%. Once we know that 8%, then we can see how much oil that will  saponify.
> 
> So, it's 100% minus the percentage we want to not be saponified, is the  percentage of lye used in our base recipe. NOT 100% plus an additional  percentage.



CHA-CHING!!!   Some things were clicking but THAT was the magic statement that unlocked the door.  Thank you, thank you, thank you.  I will still need to read through all of this over and over until I really understand but my brain just gave a sigh of relief so I will let it all sink in slowly before going back and reading it all again.

Everyone who tried to explain is brilliant and I must say, what a team effort.  Thank you all.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 16, 2014)

It's fascinating (and frustrating!) how one person can explain a concept a certain way and some people will understand the explanation perfectly, but others don't. Then someone else explains the same thing but in a slightly different way and the rest get it perfectly. Or an explanation doesn't make sense at one moment, but it does a little while later. 

I'm glad you finally had your "aha -- eureka!" moment today!


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## grayceworks (Feb 17, 2014)

DeeAnna, YOUR explanations and writing out the equations differently and making that chart are what helped me figure out how to wrap my mind around that little point that was bugging me!  so that i could reread the CS page and that one part of the equation finally made sense. And once I could fit that in to the picture, that is what helped me come up with my part of the explanation.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 21, 2014)

I just tried this. My issue is that I then have little control over my batch size - if I want to make a 1000g batch, I can't just make an amount smaller until I have the right lye amount, or I have less oil than I want for my batch.

If I calculate a 2% SF batch, make it, cook it and then add some more oil to the finished, lye free soap - why do I need to work out how much lye would have been needed to saponify it but then take some away from it?


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## grayceworks (Feb 21, 2014)

Because you don't know how much SF oil you need, but you do know how much lye you need to saponify your desired SF percentage. Because you know the lye amount to saponify the batch without the SF oil. 

So you have the lye amount without the SF oil. That is the bigger percentage of your  total batch. Your total batch will be your base oils plus SF. 

You use that lye amount from the KNOWN amount of oils, and use it to find out how much more lye is needed to do the complete batch. Which is the base + SF. You do this by finding the total lye amount. And then the total lye amount, minus the lye amount you'll use to saponify your base oils, equals how much lye is needed for your SF oil. 

Now that you know that lye amount, you can divide it by the SAP of any of your desired SF oils, and get the ounces or grams of oil you will need to achieve that SF percentage. 

So like in the example I gave, you had enough oils for your main oils that you'd need 4.07oz of lye at 1%SF. and I decided I wanted to SF at an additional 8%. So I have my initial lye amount, and I divide it by .92 to get the lye amount it would need for the main oils plus the SF. 

When I subtract the lye amount for my main oils, from this lye amount for the total batch, it gives me the lye amount that would saponify the percentage of oils for SF that I chose. 

So that number gets divided by the SAP of the oil, and gives me the amount of oil needed to SF that batch.

By doing it this way, you are not limited in batch size. All you have to know is your initial lye amount for the main oils of your recipe, no matter the size. Once you know that, you just go a step at a time and end up with the amount of oil you need for SF.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 21, 2014)

Are we talking HP or CP?


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## grayceworks (Feb 21, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Are we talking HP or CP?



HP.  Otherwise there's no point to figuring out an exact amount of a specific oil, you'd just figure them all in together and let soapcalc figure a discount on the lye.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 21, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> HP. Otherwise there's no point to figuring out an exact amount of a specific oil, you'd just figure them all in together and let soapcalc figure a discount on the lye.


 
That's what I was thinking!  Gah, I am smarter than this, I know it!  Unless it's just that I'm doing it a different way:

So I know that I want to make a 1120 gram batch with 15% CO, 40% Palm, 10% Rapeseed, 15% OO, 15% Pumpkin and 5% Castor.  (count count count, Yep, 100%!)  I want to do a 10% SF with most of that being Pumpkinseed.

So I put that all in to soap calc and it gives me the weights for each oil.  I take the weight of the pumpkin at 15% (168g) and work out what that would be at 7% instead (78.4,g so we say 78g) a difference of 90grams. 

I then switch soap calc over to work on the weight not the % and put the pumpkin seed at 78g and the SF at 2%, leaving all others the same.  I now have a smaller batch at 1030grams, which is fine as it is 1120 minus the pumpkin at 90 grams.

The amount of lye in the calc will be for this batch at 2% SF and then when I add in my 90grams Pumpkin after cook, I'll be at 1120g oils, 10% SF with most of it being pumpkin.

Or am I a pumpkin? :crazy:


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## grayceworks (Feb 21, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> That's what I was thinking!  Gah, I am smarter than this, I know it!  Unless it's just that I'm doing it a different way:
> 
> So I know that I want to make a 1120 gram batch with 15% CO, 40% Palm, 10% Rapeseed, 15% OO, 15% Pumpkin and 5% Castor.  (count count count, Yep, 100%!)  I want to do a 10% SF with most of that being Pumpkinseed.
> 
> ...





Ok, so you've taken a portion of the pumpkin oil out to save for after the cook. Your new base oils add up  to the 1030g as you stated. The amount of lye required for these oils at 2% lye discount is 146.136g. 

You want to have approximately a 10% SF, and you've already  taken care of part of that with your 2% discount on the lye. So we're just going to pretend that's 0 and that we want an 8% SF , because I'm to brain-dead right now to make it more precise and it'd only change it a fraction of a gram anyhow lol. 

So we take the 146.136g of lye, and divide it by .92 to get how much lye it would take if you were saponifying everything. Because the 146g of lye is 92% of the total lye amount for everything. That gives us 158.84g. We just want to know the difference between how much you'll use for your base oils and how much you'd use for everything. Because we don't want to use all the lye, we want to leave that 8% out and only use the 92% of the lye. 

The difference is 12.7g. That 12.7g is the other 8% of the lye needed for everything. Using that, we can figure out how much oil it will saponify. 

So that SAP value of the pumpkin seed oil is .139

So 12.7 divided by .139 says we need 91.4g of pumpkin seed oil to make your extra 8% SF after the cook. Along with your existing oils and lye discount of 2%, that gives you 1121.4g total batch size, with lye amt that you figured originally of 146.136g, for approximately 10% SF. 

So either way is within a gram of each other. I'd say you've
 got it down!


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 21, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Or am I a pumpkin? :crazy:



After reading all that .. *I* am pumpkin .. mush!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 21, 2014)

If it isn't poo-poo'd from a science perspective, I find my method much easier as I don't have to think about lye calculations for things that will never be, plus I can use the Soap Calc to do all the hard stuff for me


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 21, 2014)

OK Gent .. after reading your theory several times it's actually starting to make sense to me.  Let me know how that works for you and maybe I'll do it that way .. if it's not poo-poo'd!

I'd experiment myself but I'm living vicariously through others until I can walk again :-(


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 21, 2014)

Again, if it's isn't Poo-poo'd, I think there is an easier step in there, too - 

When I had all my oils, including 15% pumpkin, in my calc in percent mode, I could have just reduced the pumkpin down to 7% in the calc and added any other oil (say, Canola just to pick one) at 8%.  _This oil is just so that we can get the weight sorted, it has nothing to do with the lye!_

I then write down the weight of the canola - this will be how much pumpkin I add in at the end.  Switch the calc over to weight mode and then remove the canola.  Set the SF to 2% and calculate - you now have lye for the 2% batch AND you have the exact amount of SF to add in after the cook.

Ooooooooooh, I really hope this is actually right, as it is so much easier for me to understand than the other way :Kitten Love:


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## grayceworks (Feb 21, 2014)

I see where you're going with it, and it would work as long as your 'placeholder' oil has the same SAP as the oil it's representing. 

Basically, you're using an oil to hold the SF oil's place, and then figuring your 10% SF, right? And then taking that oil out and getting your 2% lye discount amount right? Those 2 lye numbers should match. 

Alternately, if you used your placeholder oil and set the SF at 2% while that's still in the recipe, 
And then take it out and calculate again at 2% 
And subtract those 2 lye numbers, and divide by the SAP of your SF oil, THAT amount of OIL should match the amount of oil you put as your SF oil above. 

They're all doing the same math, just starting at different starting points of the equation. 

Because it all boils down to how much lye is needed to saponify everything, and then how much do we discount it to get the amount of unsaponified oils that we want.

The difference between how much to do everything, and the discounted amount, tells us how to find the right amount of oil. 

Because if you're wanting to SF with something that has an oddball SAP value like jojoba, you can't plug in a placeholder oil. You gotta figure the total lye, the discounted amount, find the difference, and divide by the SAP to get the weight of oil in that case.

It might be easier in that instance though to use soapcalc to still do most of the math, like where I said 'Alternately' above...


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2014)

Gent -- I am not quite convinced you've gotten the right of it. I am pretty sure you are using the superfat as a % of the oils method (Songwind and my method) rather than the superfat as % of lye method (Grayce and CS's method). It turns out the final answers with both methods are essentially the same for your particular recipe, but I don't think this will hold true for all recipes.

Here's how I would do it:

"...1120 gram batch with 15% CO, 40% Palm, 10% Rapeseed, 15% OO, 15% Pumpkin and 5% Castor.... I want to do a 10% SF..."

Using the info from above, your FINISHED recipe is this:

Coconut Oil 168 g
Palm Oil 448
Rapeseed Oil 112
Pumpkin Seed 168
Castor 56
Olive 168
Totals 1120 g

The lye weight is 145.5 g for the FINISHED recipe at 10% superfat.

Now find the SOAPING recipe. Change soapcalc from % to grams. Lower the superfat from 10% to 2%. 

How much LESS pumpkinseed is needed in your SOAPING recipe at 2% superfat to use the SAME amount of lye at 145.5 g?

I reduced pumpkinseed to 1 gram (can't put a zero into a soapcalc recipe). Lye was much too low.
Increased pumpkinseed to 50 g. Lye is still too low.
Increased to 60 g. Ditto.
Increased to 70 g. Ditto.
Increased to 80 g. Too high.
Reduced to 75 g. A bit too low. 
Increased pumpkinseed to 77 g. About right -- lye weight is 145.45 g.
Stop there. 

Your SOAPING RECIPE is:

Coconut 168 g
Palm 448
Rapeseed 112
Pumpkin 77
Castor 56
Olive 168
Total 1029 g

Your 8% PUMPKINSEED SUPERFAT is:

168 - 77 = 91 g

This answer is about the same as your method, but I am concerned that this may be a happy coincidence.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2014)

I'm going to analyze the same recipe, but substitute meadowfoam seed oil for pumpkin seed oil. Meadowfoam has a sap value of 0.120 vs pumpkin seed sap value of 0.139 -- a big difference. Let's see if the "superfat as % of lye" method gives a different answer compared with the "superfat as % of oils" method.

****

"Superfat as % of lye" method: How much added meadowfoam would react with 8% of the lye in the recipe? Use this oil weight as the final HP superfat.

The FINISHED recipe will be this:

Coconut Oil 168 g
Palm Oil 448 
Rapeseed Oil 112
MEADOWFOAM 168
Castor 56
Olive 168
Totals 1120 g

The lye weight is 142.7 g for this FINISHED recipe at 10% superfat.

Now find the SOAPING recipe. Change soapcalc from % to grams. Lower the superfat from 10% to 2%.

How much LESS meadowfoam is needed in the SOAPING recipe at 2% superfat to use the SAME amount of lye at 142.7 g?

Omitting all the trial and error, the SOAPING recipe needs 61 g of meadowfoam.

Coconut 168 g
Palm 4480.12 vs 
Rapeseed 112
Meadowfoam 61
Castor Oil 56
Olive Oil 168
Totals 1013 g

The meadowfoam SUPERFAT is this:

168 - 61 = 107 g

****

"Superfat as % of oils" method: What is 8% of the total oil in the finished recipe? Use this as the final meadowfoam superfat.

0.08 * 1120 g = 90 g

Big difference between the two methods!


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## grayceworks (Feb 21, 2014)

Exactly! You'd possibly end up lye-heavy in the soaping recipe, so that after you cooked, there would still be unreacted lye to eat up any SF you add after, defeating the purpose! 

With such variation in SAP values, you really need to know how much a specific percent of your total lye needed is, so that you can find out how much oil that specific amount will cover. Because pumpkin seed and meadowfoam and jojoba and coconut all require different amounts of lye to cover the same weight in oil. 

You have constants -- your base soaping oil weights, and how much lye is needed for those. Those are not changing regardless of how much weight of SF oil you end up with. 

That lye amount is discounted from the FULL version. So you DO need to know the full lye amount, even if ultimately you're not going to use all that lye, see? Because that full amount is what is discounted for your soaping amount. 

You are not adding lye to your soaping version, you're taking lye away from the full final version for it to be superfatted.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2014)

I am sorry this is so complicated, guys. Either Grayce's math method or my trial-and-error method are just not straightforward to do. Again, I wish there was a super easy way, but there's not.


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## grayceworks (Feb 21, 2014)

1) input your recipe in soapcalc at 0 or 1 or 2 percent SF. This is what you will cook, with the amount of lye shown in this step. (If you chose 1 or 2, we are pretending that is YOUR 0% because that is where you feel safe with it.)

2) decide how much SF you want in percents. Convert to decimals. Ex- 8% becomes .08

3) the percent in step 2 is the amount of lye that was/will be discounted in order to reach the amount you already know from step 1. 

4) this means that the amount in step 1 is the remaining part of the 100%. So if you are wanting to SF 8% (discount the lye by 8%) then the lye from step 1 is the other 92% of it that is NOT being discounted.  And converted to decimals, that is .92  (sub in your own SF numbers in 2 thru 4 of course)

5) this means if you take the amount from step 1, and divide it by the decimal in step 4, you now know what 100% is. 

6) because you know what 100% is on your lye, you can now find out what 8% lye is, by subtracting step1 from step 5. This little bit of lye is the amount you will have discounted  when all is said and done. 

7)Write this little lye number on THIS RECIPE. As long as THIS RECIPE does not change, this little bit of lye doesn't change either, and you can use this number to figure out LOTS of different SF oil amounts. How much shea is 8% ? How much coconut? How much avocado? Etc.  You only need this little number here to figure the amounts for any of them! 

Of course you could just do step 1 all by itself and have a low superfat recipe, or you could add oil afterwards willy-nilly and not know for sure how much SF there us, but if you want to know specifically how much of a specific oil will SF your recipe in step1 by the amount you chose in step 2, then you need to know exactly how much lye is being discounted. 

7) that tiny bit of lye you are discounting will saponify a specific amount of oil. Different oils have different weights and different SAP values.

8  ) find the SAP value for the oil you want.

9) divide that little tiny lye amount by the SAP.  Voila! You have your exact oil amount. This is how much oil that discounted lye would eat up if you didn't discount it. 

So that's why you need to find 100% first in order to find 8% of 100%. 

Otherwise it's a lot of guessing and fiddling. 

But once you know what 5% or 8% or 10% lye is for a recipe, write it down, and then you can jump straight to step 8 if you're not changing anything but the SF oil type. It makes it very simple then to vary a recipe just by changing out the SF oil.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 21, 2014)

holy cheeezuz .. *twirling in circles*  .. 

ok .. lemme see if I got this straight

1. input 100% of oils (not including sf oil) into recipe at 1% sf = lye a
2. superfat of choice (5%, 8%, 10%, etc.) / 100  .. eg. 8/100 = 0.08
3. 100% of oils - sf / 100 ... eg.  100-8= 92    92/100 = 0.92
4. lye a / 0.92 = b
5. b - lye a = lye discount (or lye d)
6. lye d / sap of SF oil = weight of sf oil to add after cook??

I'm totally not sure if the answer for step 6 is the weight of the SF oil to use or what .. it's your step 9 but I didn't understand what your voila meant .. besides voila!  In order for me to understand this I'm trying to break it down into math only and few to no words.  The explanations are really messing with my head.  Math I understand, LOL!


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## paillo (Feb 21, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> I honestly have to say I don't think I'm doing a very good job explaining this one. Rather bummed by that.... :-(



Love your analogy, thank you so much from one who cried at - and flunked - every algebra story problem. I think I get it, woohoo! But too much math for me, I'm gonna stick to my CP with superfat built in. I only HP if I've completely messed up a batch already. Is that a copout?


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2014)

MzMollie asked: "...6. lye d / sap of SF oil = weight of sf oil to add after cook??..."  Yes, you're right! 

Paillo -- It's a treat to see people work so hard at this, and I'm glad you've spent the time to puzzle on the problem with us. I'ts no copout to stick with CP or even with HP where you put all the oils into the soap pot and let the lye choose what the superfat is. This idea of adding a specific fat after the cook is definitely an "extra credit" problem.

PS: MzMolly, I keep mis-spelling your name. It's because I had a sweet pup named Mollie and I lost her this past summer, so I keep mixing up her name with the "ie" ending rather than the "y" in your name. My apologies.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 21, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> PS: MzMolly, I keep mis-spelling your name. It's because I had a sweet pup named Mollie and I lost her this past summer, so I keep mixing up her name with the "ie" ending rather than the "y" in your name. My apologies.



No apologies necessary .. mom always said, "Call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner."

Molly, Mollie .. it's all the same to me.  It's not even my real name LOL!!

It's the name my hubbie calls me based on the email address I had when we met on a chat board much like this one.  He knew me by only that email address for over a year before he ever knew my real name.  Molly's stuck and I like it better than my real name so I'm going to legally change my name when all my immigration paper work is settled.  FWIW, that email address was based on a molly mule I used to have so that makes it even funnier.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2014)

My name gets misspelled and mispronounced quite a bit, so I totally get your point about "call me anything..."  Dee works too; it's what my family calls me.

Here's my Mollie with her sister Gypsy. All our dogs are rescues, by the way.


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## Lin (Feb 22, 2014)

My name gets mispelled constantly. I understand the misspelling, Lynn or Linn or Lyn seem to be more common. But what really drives me nuts is how I spell it out for the person, and they STILL can't get it right. 
"L-y-n-n?"
"No, L i n"
"L i n n?" 
"no, one n. L i n."
"Oh, L y n."
"NO. L i n"
"OH, L i n. Oh, gotcha" 
*repeat the next time I talk to this person*

Beautiful dogs. I had a foster dog named Molly. I lost my service dog Tessa December 20th, she's with me in my avatar. I'm still much in shock and denial, it was completely unexpected.


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## grayceworks (Feb 22, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> holy cheeezuz .. *twirling in circles* ..
> 
> ok .. lemme see if I got this straight
> 
> ...


 
YESSSSSSS!!!! You got the concept down! Yayyyy! Yes, Step 6 in your answer here is the weight of the SF oil to use after the cook.  

Just one little distinction though, and don't let it confuse you... you have the math part down already... 

Step 3 is not 100% of oils, it's the total 100% of the lye (lye.b) you're looking for, minus the amount of lye you want to discount (lye.d) to get your soap superfatted with an as yet unknown weight of oil. Because that number may or may not match up with 8% of your oil weight in the end. It is just that you are wanting to discount the lye needed to saponify your oils by 8%. 

Because different oils have different weights even if it takes the same amt of lye to saponify them. Thus the different SAPs. 

It's a fine distinction, but it becomes a bigger distinction in DeeAnna's examples contrasting the pumpkin seed oil with meadowfoam oil...


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## grayceworks (Feb 22, 2014)

Ok, I kinda rewrote again, similar to how you rewrote it, and maybe it will be clearer than my previous? 


So in #2, we're saying we want 8% superfat, yes, but to achieve that, in #3 we are discounting (lye.d) the (as yet unknown amount) 100% of the lye (lye.b) by 8%, leaving us with the 92% of the lye (lye.a) that we already DO know from #1, and then solving for lye.b in #4 to find out how much that 100% actually IS. 

So it would be something like the following, working with weights and percents, ie: lye.a weight and lye.a percent... (I know I STILL make it too wordy *sigh*)

#1 Enter 100% of oils (not including SF oil) into recipe at 1% SF. 
This is the part of the recipe you will cook. 
write down lye weight for this recipe. 
This is going to become *lye.a weight*
(example: lye.a weight = 4.07oz)

#2: choose SF oil and percent of choice = (8%, 10% etc) 
SF.percent = lye.discount percent *(lye.d percent)* = SF / 100 = *.xx* 
(example: 8% SF = 8% lye.d percent = 8/100 = .08 )

#3: *lye.a percent* = 100% - lye.d percent 
(example: lye.a percent = 100% - 8% = 92% = 92/100 = .92)

#4: *lye.b weight* = lye.a weight / lye.a percent
(example: lye.b weight = 4.07oz / .92 = 4.42oz)

#5: lye.b weight - lye.a weight = *lye.d weight*
(example: 4.42oz - 4.07oz = .35oz)

#6: lye.d weight / *Oil.SAP* = *Oil.SF.weight*
(example: 

JojobaOil.SAP= .066 so .35oz / .066 = 5.30oz of Jojoba oil @ 8%SF
SheaButter.SAP= .128 so .35oz /.128 = 2.73oz Shea Butter @ 8%SF
CoconutOil.SAP= .183 so .35oz / .183 = 1.91oz Coconut Oil @ 8%SF
Meadowfoam.SAP= .12 so .35oz / .12 =  2.92oz MeadowfoamOil @ 8%SF
SawPalmetto.SAP= .167 so .35oz/.167= 2.09oz SawPalmetto Oil @ 8%SF
)


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2014)

In my method, the place holder oil used is NOT for lye calculation - I *only *calculated the lye on the oils with out my SF oil.  So the SAP value is not required.

If I just make a batch at 2% SF and cook it until it is finished and then add more oil, why do we need to know how much lye would have been needed for the whole batch?  That is what I don't get.

If I know that the smaller batch at 2%SF + an amount of SF oil = my desired batch size with the correct SF %, what more do we need?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> Exactly! You'd possibly end up lye-heavy in the soaping recipe, so that after you cooked, there would still be unreacted lye to eat up any SF you add after, defeating the purpose! ......



This is the part that I don't actually let in, as I feel it is wrong!

So
all oils together = (oils a)
oils with out my SF = (oils b)

If I use soap calc to give me a lye amount for a 2% SF recipe using (oils b) then the recipe itself won't be lye heavy, as there is no difference between what I am doing here and what everyone does with soap calc.  I have a recipe with a 2% SF, not a lye heavy recipe.

If I add more oil in after the cook, I am adding oils to a 2% SF'd batch of soap, so my extra fat is super fat.  I need to know what weight of SF oil to add to get to (oils a) which I can work out as I did using soap calc on the % of recipe or weight of recipe settings

How much lye is required for the SF oil is not required, as we don't want to saponify it!


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## grayceworks (Feb 22, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> ... you could just do step 1 all by itself and have a low superfat recipe, or you could add oil afterwards willy-nilly and not know for sure how much SF there us, but if you want to know specifically how much of a specific oil will SF your recipe in step1 by the amount you chose in step 2, then you need to know exactly how much lye is being discounted. ...


 

If you are wanting to find the exact amount of oil that a lye discount will handle, then you need to know the whole amount of lye first, to find out the discounted amount of lye, to find out the weight of the oil that the discounted amount of lye would have handled. 

If you are adding 8% of your oil weight after the fact, that's not necessarily superfatted 8%, depending on the oil's SAP value. Unless your oil's SAP is about the same as the SAP average in your base oils recipe. But if it's not, then you need a way to find the correct amount of oil that your lye discount covers. 

We're finding the whole weight of the lye first, because that's the easiest thing to figure out in the equation, based on  the only constants we  have, which are the lye weight and percent after the discount, the lye discount percent (but not the weight yet), and the SAP of the oil we want to  use. We don't know the amount of the lye we're discounting  until we know the whole amount of the lye. and if we don't know the amount of lye we're discounting, then we can't use it with the SAP to find the weight of the oil we need. 

You are figuring the weight of oil as a percent of the oils in your recipe.

It's not going to be the same for every oil though, so if you were figuring, for example, 2oz of Jojoba Oil. In the example I gave above, that's not coming anywhere near to superfatting the recipe at 8%, while if I used 2oz of Coconut Oil, same weight of oils, but it will more than superfat at 8%. 

Try doing it your way with say.... Babassu instead of Pumpkin Seed oil. See what you come  up with. Following your recipe and method exactly, you get the same 90g of oil when figuring a percent of oil weight. 

However in doing the exact math, you come  up with only requiring 73.97g of Babassu to SF the additional 8% after the cook, rather than 90g. Either that or an additional 2g of lye to get ONLY 10% total SF for that batch. 

So like DeeAnna and I have been saying, you can either guesstimate your SF amount based on a percent of the oils, which is easier, but not necessarily accurate. If you have something with a higher SAP than most of the oils in your recipe, you'll end up overly superfatted, but if the SAP is lower than the oils in your recipe, you'll end up with less superfat than you thought. 

Or you can do the calculations to find out the exact weight of lye you are discounting, and using this, calculate the superfat amount specific to your special oil. 

Most people will probably do the % of oils, simply because it's easier.  

I wish I could put together a spreadsheet that would do the superfat calculations for you for special oils. I probably could given enough time... Lemme think on this. I think I can do it. All the SAP values are in the various lye calculators. Hmmm....


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## grayceworks (Feb 22, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> This is the part that I don't actually let in, as I feel it is wrong!
> 
> If I use soap calc to give me a lye amount for a 2% SF recipe using (oils b) then the recipe itself won't be lye heavy, as there is no difference between what I am doing here and what everyone does with soap calc. I have a recipe with a 2% SF, not a lye heavy recipe.


 

I was typing the first in response to part of DeeAnna's explanation, and also assuming that you were using the placeholder oil in your calculations, which I later read that you weren't.  

If you are not  using the placeholder oil in your calculations, then you will indeed have a 2% SF recipe after the cook. You are correct. To which you can add additional oils and increase the SF %. 

How much additional oils for a SPECIFIC oil is different from how much additional oils in soapcalc, because soapcalc does it's discount based on an average of all the oils in the recipe. While we were doing the lye discount based on the actual lye amount required for that specific oil, which is why we needed to find the actual lye amount, and not use the percent of recipe oils weights. Because depending on the  SAP value, there will be different answers.


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## grayceworks (Feb 22, 2014)

Ok, yeah. I am going to try my hand at making a spreadsheet  calculator thingy.  It will be a good challenge!


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## grayceworks (Feb 22, 2014)

Puppiessss!!!! *squee* 

IN the water dish. Of course. lol

My 2 kitties are rescues. Both Maine Coon mixes. But only one likes to play in the water. Sits in the sink and whines until I turn the water on, then gets the whole bathroom wet playing. Other kitty just *looks* at me. You know the look. The "she's crazy and I don't want to be associated with her" look. lol


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2014)

I think that a confusion is between super fat and lye discount.  In CP they are essentially the same, as you can either put more of your mix of oils in (superfat) or less lye (lye discount).  In CP, adding x% more of a certain oil does not increase the superfat or lye discount by the same x% as the total lye is based on the SAP values of the oils and their percentages in the mix.

So to do a lye discount method of adding an oil afterward, I think your way would make sense, but is not required.  We're not discounting lye - we're superfatting!  We are taking a perfectly functional recipe (a) which has a SF or lye discount and then adding in more oil (b) to make a full batch (c).  

If (a) is at 2% SF and we know that (b) is 8% of (c) then by adding (b) to (a) when (a) is cooked we get to (c) with a 10% SF.  

The lye discount will not be the same at all in this case, but then that is lye discount and not superfat.  Normally the two are the same thing, when talking CP or HP with no specific oil after the cook.  But we're not talking about that.

We don't need to discount lye for an "after the cook" superfat as the lye is only needed for (a).  (a) has the lye discount worked out by soap calc.

(c) has 10% of the total weight of oils unsaponified and free.  It is 10% super fatted.


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## grayceworks (Feb 22, 2014)

Okay.  We will have to each just agree that we'll just do the method which works best for us, I think, because I don't know how else to explain it and you're not understanding the reason for needing to know the full recipe amounts, soooo... dunno lol. 
Anyhow, either method will superfat your soap to a perfecty fine degree.  


I have a working calculator started for calculating SF oils using their SAP and the lye amount of the base recipe. Just have to clean it up a bit. 
,


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2014)

I think we are together - lye discount or superfat.  You're discounting lye, I'm super fatting

Edit to expand on it - 

I understand fully the reason for working out the amount of lye needed for all of the oils for a lye discount.  It makes sense now, as you are taking away from the total lye amount.

What didn't make sense was that I didn't see the need to do it in that way for what we were ultimately trying to achieve - more of one certain oil added in after the cook - when the other method is much easier, for me at least.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2014)

"...How much lye is required for the SF oil is not required, as we don't want to saponify it! ...."

This is true, Gent, but the lye required for the SF is what determines the amount of superfat oil.

"...If I use soap calc to give me a lye amount for a 2% SF recipe using (oils b) then the recipe itself won't be lye heavy..."

This is mathematically correct but not necessarily chemically correct. This method of calculating SF will be chemically correct in two of three circumstances: 
(1) HP and CP methods in which you mix all of your oils together and letting the lye choose the superfat.
OR 
(2) when your special superfat oil added after an HP cook has a saponification value very close to the SV of your mixed oils. Your pumpkinseed recipe meets Case 2 conditions.

It will not be chemically correct in a third situation: 
(3) If the special superfat oil added after the cook has a SV quite different than the SV of the mixed oils. The recipe in which I substituted meadowfoam seed for the pumpkinseed falls in this category.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2014)

But I will also add -- whatever works for the soapmaker is what works. Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree and move on?


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## Belinda02 (Feb 22, 2014)

I think DeeAnna's post #78 is a good summery. But does it really matter in large batches versus small and wouldn't a large number of oils versus a small number impact differently.  Brain still sucking in coffee and could be slush.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> ............ Perhaps it's time to agree to disagree and move on?



Almost!   I do feel that for superfatting after the cook in HP there is a much better way than the lye discount method.

It depends on whether you keep the definitions of Superfat and Lye Discount the same all the time - 

_10% of the of oil mix is not saponfied (option 1)_

OR

_you used 10% LESS lye than is required to saponify the total weight of oils (option 2)_

In CP, these are one and the same thing.  But not in HP.

I agree 100% that to do a lye discount (option 2) the whole "Total weight lye minus this and multiplied by the other" is brilliant.  

BUT

If you split out the definitions of superfatted and lye discounted in HP, because you have the option of adding in more oil after the cook which you don't have in CP.  Adding in more oils after the cook is not lye discounting (option 2), but rather it is superfatting (option 1)

You can have 10% of the oils unsaponified AND the amount of lye used is not the same as 10% less than is required for all of the oils used.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 22, 2014)

"...But does it really matter in large batches versus small..."

Yes, it does matter. While it is indeed true you have to measure out more superfat oil for a large batch vs. small, the PERCENTAGE of superfat in the soap is the same, whether the batch is big or small. If you make 10 oz of soap with 1 oz superfat or 100 oz with 10 oz superfat, the effect is all the same to the soap.

Think about making a cake. If an 8x8 pan of cake calls for 1/2 tsp salt and a double-sized recipe calls for 1 tsp, do you normally just leave out the 1/2 tsp salt if you're only making a small pan of cake? It's just a small amount of salt, so it's surely not important, right? 

"... wouldn't a large number of oils versus a small number impact differently..."

No, the number of oils honestly doesn't make a difference. The key issue is the saponification value of the superfat oil vs. the averaged SV of the blended soaping oils however many or few there are. If the superfat SV is about the same as the averaged SV of the mixed soaping oils, just use the simple "% of oils" method. If the superfat SV is quite different than the average SV, use the more complicated "% of lye" method.


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 22, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I agree 100% that to do a lye discount (option 2) the whole "Total weight lye minus this and multiplied by the other" is brilliant.
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...



See, I have to disagree. I don't think the method of calculating out lye amounts and SAP values is a lye discount. In fact, it is a true superfat because you're calculating how much oil/butter you'll need based on fat amounts.

Your method works for you, and that's great! However, for those who want to know how much actual fat they're adding, the math version makes more sense. 

Your method tells you how much oil you're superfatting with as a percentage of the total oils. However, because different oils/butters have different amounts of fat per unit of oil, it's a less precise way of calculating superFAT. The other method using lye amounts to figure out how much fat you'd need to get a given superfat, and then the SAP value of the oil to tell you how much oil you'd need to get a given superfat.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2014)

Okay - I had always thought that oils/fats were almost 100% fat, and that the SAP values depended more on the type of fat chains rather than particular if, for example, lard has more fat than olive oil.

So my method may not tell you precisely what % of fat inside the fats is saponified or not, but it is much easier for those who don't want to get too involved in the tricky math!


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 22, 2014)

It seems the confusion is amount of fat by weight, and the amount of fat by number of fatty acid molecules, which will be different based on the type of fatty acid.

Here's my understanding of how SAP values come into play.

1. There are two ends to a fatty acid. The three carbon chain 'fat' end, and the carboxilic acid end.
2. You will always need the same number of lye molecules to convert a give NUMBER of carboxilic acids (as a part of the fatty acid).
3. Different fatty acids will have different molecular weights because of the difference in size of the carbon chain ends (more carbons and hydrogens in the chain equals a heavier molecule). This means if you have _n_ number of oleic acid (C18H34O2), it will weigh more than _n_ number of, say, myristic acid (C14H28O2). 
4. Conversely, this means 1g of oleic acid will contain fewer molecules than 1g of myristic acid.
5. This means that you will need less lye to convert 1g of oleic acid than you would 1g of myristic acid, because there are fewer acids for the lye to interact with.

For the purposes of calculating out HP superfat, we are are saying that to be precise, you need to calculate out the superfat percentage based on the number of of fatty acid molecules (so, 8% of all of the fatty acids), which will have different weights depending on which fatty acids are in the oil you're using to superfat. 

And yes, your method will give you a superfatted soap.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 22, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> If I add more oil in after the cook, I am adding oils to a 2% SF'd batch of soap, so my extra fat is super fat.



That's what I always thought .. hmm .. I'm not moving camps yet because I just got all this math sorted but that's the mechanics I was struggling with.  I understood the math but not the why of it.


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## ilovesoap2 (Feb 22, 2014)

I do feel like a child stepping into an adult conversation :shh:

These are my thoughts
Superfat for soap means the amount of oil (regardless of fat content) above and beyond what is needed by the lye in a recipe to make a batch of soap.  

So lets say I make a soap with olive and coconut oils at 2% sf, at the end of the cook, I should have that 2% of oils left over correct?  Based on Sap values, it may be a little of each oil or it may be only one oil left over, which ever it is, that 2% should be there because it was more than the lye needed.  At this point I add my meadowfoam.  It should stay in my soap simply because there is no lye in the batch to interfere.  My challenge may be how to get it completely incorporated in the soap. 

This is assuming I'm using a soap calculator.  I am assuming the calc is taking into consideration the sap value of the oils and even though they are using an average, they are still saying if I superfat even 1% all the lye will be used up.  This is really clear in my head.  The math stuff I've been reading over last hr just has me all sorts of twisted :lolno:

If my thinking is completely wrong though I'll have to keep practicing until I get it.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 22, 2014)

That's where I was, and it was the whole idea of SF and lye discount together that had me.  

But regardless - my pumpkin seed oil soap is in the moulds!  I love you all!

And please don't feel that I was being contrary for the sake of it.


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 22, 2014)

ilovesoap2 said:


> I do feel like a child stepping into an adult conversation :shh:



Please don't!  We're all adults here. Some are just more scientifically- or mathematically-minded than others.



> These are my thoughts
> Superfat for soap means the amount of oil (regardless of fat content) above and beyond what is needed by the lye in a recipe to make a batch of soap.
> 
> So lets say I make a soap with olive and coconut oils at 2% sf, at the end of the cook, I should have that 2% of oils left over correct?



Here's where you're getting confused. Superfat isn't based on the amount of oil-it's based on the number of fatty acids. If you make a soap and run it through the calculator with a 2% lye discount, then you're getting an amount of lye that will react with all but 2% of the fatty acids in the recipe. However, depending on what it's reacting with, you could be left with all of the coconut oil reacted, leaving maybe 3-4% (by weight) of the olive oil unreacted.

Soap calculators are great for cp soap, because you can't choose which oil reacts and which doesn't in a cp, so you only need to know the averages. In that way, the difference between lye discount and superfatting doesn't matter. 

Because we're able to pick and chose which oils we want the lye to react with in hp soap, things become a little harder. The amount of lye for a recipe has to be in relation to the NUMBER of fatty acids. Lye, being one molecule, is easy to convert between weight and the number of molecules. Fats aren't so easy to measure the number of, which is why you have to deal with things like SAP values.


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 22, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> But regardless - my pumpkin seed oil soap is in the moulds!  I love you all!



Yay for soap in the molds! <3



> And please don't feel that I was being contrary for the sake of it.



Definitely not!  I often feel like I'm being perceived that way, when something isn't making sense to me.


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## ilovesoap2 (Feb 22, 2014)

FlybyStardancer said:


> Here's where you're getting confused. Superfat isn't based on the amount of oil-it's based on the number of fatty acids. If you make a soap and run it through the calculator with a 2% lye discount, then you're getting an amount of lye that will react with all but 2% of the fatty acids in the recipe. However, depending on what it's reacting with, you could be left with all of the coconut oil reacted, leaving maybe 3-4% (by weight) of the olive oil unreacted.



I was hoping to miss the math class.
I better get on it though..darn!
Thanks for further explaining, it will help whilst I go over this thread again


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## FlybyStardancer (Feb 22, 2014)

Sure, you don't need to know exactly how much in order to superfat your soaps. It just means results will vary depending on what oil you use to superfat. 

Sadly, math is everywhere.  I hope my explanations helped!


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## grayceworks (Feb 23, 2014)

Ok, I'm going to let you guys try this spreadsheet out, it's nothing fancy right now, because it's a work in progress. Try it, give me feedback, and eventually I'll get it all pretty and stuff. lol

It's very, very, very basic at this point. First figure your base recipe at 0% lye discount (or 1% or 2%) without the superfat oil figured in, in soapcalc. Then in this calculator, you enter the name of the oil, enter the SAP for it from soapcalc, enter what % superfat you want to do, and enter the 0% lye amount from soapcalc. It will tell you how much of your SF oil to add after the cook. 

If you've entered a 1% or 2% lye discount instead of 0%, then remember that when you're entering in what SF percent you want to do, because your recipe will already be at 1% or 2% SF from your base recipe oils. 

I might get it to figure 0%, 1% and 2% lye discount and oil superfat amounts all as separate options... I started that, but then it was too much for my brain tonight, and it was making too many columns, which means I'll have to do a form with drop-down menus instead, and my brain said NO for tonight. Unless someone good with excel wants to help out. lol

Yes, I know the last column is full of divide by zero errors, because, well, nothing is entered into the SAP or % or Lye column until you enter those in. Then the last column calculates it all for you.  

Like I said, it will be prettier later. Just want it functional for now and get feedback on it.


*Link to XLS file direct download. *

There's also some comments in the boxes that have the little red triangles on the corners.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 24, 2014)

... and let me complicate things a little with a few more questions. 

Could you batch the main oils and then separate it into portions, adding a different SF into each portion?
Could you batch the main oils and store it until someone asked for a specific SF and then add it at a later date?
Could this work with Pine Tar as a SF?
Would this same math hold for KOH as well as NaOH?

I look at all my questions and realize, I am a mad scientist at heart.


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## grayceworks (Feb 24, 2014)

MzMolly65 said:


> ... and let me complicate things a little with a few more questions.
> 
> Could you batch the main oils and then separate it into portions, adding a different SF into each portion?
> Could you batch the main oils and store it until someone asked for a specific SF and then add it at a later date?
> ...


 

Like calculating two batches separately and then adding the main portions together? Should work, I would think, if you calculated each SF oil properly. 

And this would be ideal for master-batching. Have a main oils recipe, and then just separately calculate the SF amount for whichever oil you decide to add to it. 

Pine Tar has a SAP value... I think it might work? DeeAnna? lol

The math is the same for KOH and NaOH in this respect, as long as you use the proper SAP value for the type of lye you are using. 

Try my spreadsheet thingy! Let me know what would make it easier!


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## ilovesoap2 (Feb 24, 2014)

FlybyStardancer said:


> Sure, you don't need to know exactly how much in order to superfat your soaps. It just means results will vary depending on what oil you use to superfat.
> 
> Sadly, math is everywhere.  I hope my explanations helped!



Actually, still confused ever after going over the thread.  Now I just wait for grayceworks spreadsheet


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## grayceworks (Feb 24, 2014)

grayceworks said:


> Link to XLS file direct download.


 


ilovesoap2 said:


> Actually, still confused ever after going over the thread. Now I just wait for grayceworks spreadsheet


 

Posted with some basic info up in post #93 above... but here's the link again!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 24, 2014)

--Could you batch the main oils and then separate it into portions, adding a different SF into each portion?
--Could you batch the main oils and store it until someone asked for a specific SF and then add it at a later date?

Yes to both questions. Just trudge through the math. 

--Could this work with Pine Tar as a SF?

Theoretically yes, but I'm not sure I would use pine tar as a superfatting ingredient.

--Would this same math hold for KOH as well as NaOH?

Yes it would.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Feb 24, 2014)

I agree with the PT as SF!  Might work as a soap/fake tan cross over


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 24, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> --Could this work with Pine Tar as a SF?
> 
> Theoretically yes, but I'm not sure I would use pine tar as a superfatting ingredient.



Thanks everyone for your thoughts on my questions.

I questioned the possibility of Pine Tar for SF because I thought it might be more available for the skin to absorb, much like keeping EO's to the end so they are more available for skin contact.

That question played into the reason I asked about master batching.  I don't want to waste an entire batch of oils just to have an experiment end poorly and without reference.  If I make a master batch and then split it, adding different SF's, not only am I wasting less product but I have a frame of reference to test how each different SF looks and feels in the final soap product and how it works for the person using it.

I have a friend with some severe psoriasis and I'd like to send her several different samples to test and see which one she finds most soothing.  I was thinking of a 100% OO base and one control sample superfatted with OO and then other samples superfatted with the various oils that are supposed to be good for psoriasis .. camelina, pine tar, mango, neem .. you get the point.  I thought she might have a better chance of pinpointing which oils are actually helping, or if all the fancy oils are just a waste of time and money.

I could repeat the experiment twice, once for NaOH and once for KOH.  Maybe even that could make the difference.


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## Lin (Feb 25, 2014)

I personally wouldn't want PT as superfat, that stuff is hell to get off. And when you've got it on, your hands can still be sticky once you don't see any PT left. I'm imagining getting out of the shower and my clothes sticking to my body all over lol.


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 25, 2014)

Lin said:


> I personally wouldn't want PT as superfat, that stuff is hell to get off. And when you've got it on, your hands can still be sticky once you don't see any PT left. I'm imagining getting out of the shower and my clothes sticking to my body all over lol.



Must be a brand difference because mine was not sticky.  Mine was very runny, like used car oil .. and now that I've said that I'm not sure I'd want to SF it either LOL!!!


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## Lin (Feb 25, 2014)

Did you get it all over your hands? lol. Runny describes it as well, but when its on skin it doesn't want to just come off. Even after soap and water.


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## grayceworks (Feb 25, 2014)

LOL yeah, it doesn't come off of anything easy. It's used to help grip baseball bats and stuff too. And have you ever tried to get pine sap off your car after parkng under a tree for just a few hours?


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## MzMolly65 (Feb 25, 2014)

Thanks folks .. nixing the idea of a pine tar sf.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 2, 2014)

I have always wanted to try PT in a lotion, however. But it would only be a few percent of the total product. It would certainly allow the user to apply some PT to trouble spots without having to take a shower or bath.


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## AlicesWonderhands (Apr 20, 2015)

this seems super complicated? What is the purpose? 
I just ran across the idea of putting oils in AFTER the cook for SF. Why wouldnt I just add the 8% SF to the soap calc and put everything in together. Isnt that what the super fat section of the calculator is for? 
Sorry if this seems daft, it just seems really excessive to me to use all this complicated math and measurements that seem pretty easy to mess up. :Kitten Love:


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## Susie (Apr 20, 2015)

This thread is over a year old.  Hopefully some of those folks will take time to answer you, but it might be smarter to start a new thread.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 21, 2015)

I didn't realize how old the thread was, so I'll make my post a new topic.


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