# Liquid soap going bad after a few months



## Kyra (Sep 20, 2014)

It finally happened to me! I never had a batch turn bad on me but a few days ago I started noticing something very strange happen to some of the bottles sitting on a shelf for a few months.  The perfectly clear soap started fuzzing up from the bottom of the bottle, until all the soap turned cloudy. Not cloudy as in cloudy soap, but as in bad soap. I watched the bottle every day looking for changes in consistency, texture, smell, etc. Since the soap is fragranced, no bad smell was noticed in this early stages of spoilage. There is some mold like growth starting to form on the top of the soap. I'll try to take some pics and post them, as I was not able to find anything online on the subject. Maybe it will help others spot and notice their own soap starting to go bad. Did it happen to you? How can you prevent it? Please share your experience!

Kyra


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## FGOriold (Sep 20, 2014)

I have never had soap go bad..... yet, but I have had soap turn cloudy and various stages of cloudy due to temperature changes in the room it is stored.  It does not go cloudy all at once, but sometimes little dots or ghosting and stops there (goes back to clear when returned to room temperature) and sometimes all over clouding over a few days.  But they always go back to clear when brought back to room temperature.

I would ask what, if anything, have you added to your soap?  Did you superfat it at all?  Use oils high in unsaponifiables?


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## Meganmischke (Sep 20, 2014)

This is the time of year some of my ls gets cloudy. I think it is due to the temps going below 70.  Not all my recipes do this though.


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## IrishLass (Sep 21, 2014)

Interesting! I've only been making liquid soap for 2 years (via the glycerin method), but for what it's worth, none of them have never grown mold. I have a couple of bottles of my soap that I made 2 years ago still sitting on my shelf (for observational purposes) and they still look and smell as great as they did on the day I made them. I look forward to seeing the pics.


 IrishLass


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## Kyra (Sep 21, 2014)

Faith, this was a bastille soap (80% OO, 20% CO), made with a lye excess and neutralized with borax. All I added was fragrance and glycerin. Nothing else. The temperatures here are around 70-75 degrees F, the soap was kept in a perfectly closed bottle, in a dry cupboard, no humidity no extreme temperatures.

Meganmischke, does your temperature influenced cloudy soap look anything like mine, in the pics below?

IrishLass, it never happened to me either, this was a first and I am trying to wrap my head around it. The soap lost its clear amber look it has an opaque cloudy look to it. On the top there is some kind of darker layer of what I think it's mold or something. When you move the soap in the bottle, there is a textured liquid left on the clear part of the bottle, as you can see, the good soap doesn't leave that specky texture on the bottles. Here are the pics. 

Thanks for your input, ladies!


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## Susie (Sep 21, 2014)

How old exactly is this soap?  And what was the recipe?

I, too, have a bottle of my first liquid soap sitting on a shelf for observation.  Nothing odd yet.  And I never use preservatives.


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## Kyra (Sep 21, 2014)

Susie, it is about 4 months old. 80% OO, 20% CO, lye discount, neutralized with borax, fragrance. Nothing else in it.


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## FGOriold (Sep 21, 2014)

How much of a lye discount did you use (that is the same as a superfat).  I find that superfatted soaps can look great at first but over time, the excess fats rise to the top to create a layer like that (slightly opaque, whitish, flows around when shaken a bit).  Some will, some will not - really depends on the formula and if your oils have unsaponfiables too in addition to a superfat.

Personally, I have gone back to a 0 -1% max superfat and keeping my unsaponifiable oils in very low percentages because I find I get more stability over time this way.  Liquid soap is so much for fickle than any other type of soap I have made.

I also have some bottled soap that I added FO to - looked great at first, then over time clouded up.  The exact same batch with a different fragrance did not do so I attribute it to that particular fragrance.

Here is a great writeup about superfatting and lye discount:  http://cavemanchemistry.com/LyeDiscount-Dunn.pdf


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## Susie (Sep 21, 2014)

Kyra said:


> Susie, it is about 4 months old. 80% OO, 20% CO, lye discount, neutralized with borax, no superfat, fragrance. Nothing else in it.



OK, here is my two cents for a guess:  You used a lye discount THEN neutralized with borax.  That is going to give you a fat heavy liquid soap.  I do not think that is spoilage.  I agree with Faith.  It is probably oils or FO rising to the top.  I am not sure why it took 4 months to rise, but I really do think that is what it is.

I would really be interested in what it smells like.  If it is spoilage, you should be able to smell it.


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## Kyra (Sep 21, 2014)

Faith, This particular soap was made using Catherine Failor's method. It's strange because I made a lot of soaps using this exact same recipe, but I currently have 3 different fragrances on the shelf from this same batch:
- one lot with one of the fragrances looks perfect, 
- the second lot - the one I pictured - all 5 bottles went "bad"
- the third fragrance, only 3 out of 7 bottles went bad. 

So this is why I can't figure out the why? I would blame the fragrance on the lot that went all bad since I have the lot made with the same paste that looks perfect. But the third one? Only a few bottles out of the batch?...:crazy:
 Hmmm....


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## Kyra (Sep 21, 2014)

Susie, I feel comforted in your words and I hope this is what I am dealing with. There is no bad smell whatsoever. I keep checking all the bottles, no bad smell in any one of them.




Susie said:


> OK, here is my two cents for a guess:  You used a lye discount THEN neutralized with borax.  That is going to give you a fat heavy liquid soap.  I do not think that is spoilage.  I agree with Faith.  It is probably oils or FO rising to the top.  I am not sure why it took 4 months to rise, but I really do think that is what it is.
> 
> I would really be interested in what it smells like.  If it is spoilage, you should be able to smell it.


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## Susie (Sep 21, 2014)

You would be able to smell spoilage.  You don't happen to have a microscope handy, do you?  Just kidding, sort of.  If you happen to have any friends that are science teachers or such, you could have them check it under a microscope for bacteria/molds/etc if you are still worried about it.


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## FGOriold (Sep 21, 2014)

Failor's recipes use a lye excess that is later neutralized not a lye discount so I am a bit confused.
But - I also don't think your soaps went bad based on the images you posted (you really cannot know for sure without appropriate challenge testing though), it really looks like FO issues or superfat issues or borax issues (too much borax creates problems too).  When looking at the very tops of your bottles (the clear portion that has no soap) it looks like oil residue sticking to the sides.

Since we do not know your exact formula (with lye and water amounts), it is really hard to help at this point.


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## Kyra (Sep 21, 2014)

Ooops!!! I wrote my reply in a hurry, while doing something else. Sorry about that! Lye excess that is!! Not discount! Pff... That would throw anyone off. Sorry about that. Here's the exact formula:

Pure Olive Oil: 1106 grams (39 oz)
Coconut Oil: 283 grams (10 oz.)
KOH 90% purity: 314 grams (11 oz)
Water: 945 grams (33 oz)

At dilution I added: 56 grams (2 oz) of borax (for neutralizing and thickening purposes) and 680 grams (24 oz) glycerin. I got 8 liters (2 gallons) of soap, which I divided in 4 and fragranced with 4 different fragrances.




FGOriold said:


> Failor's recipes use a lye excess that is later neutralized not a lye discount so I am a bit confused.
> But - I also don't think your soaps went bad based on the images you posted (you really cannot know for sure without appropriate challenge testing though), it really looks like FO issues or superfat issues or borax issues (too much borax creates problems too).  When looking at the very tops of your bottles (the clear portion that has no soap) it looks like oil residue sticking to the sides.
> 
> Since we do not know your exact formula (with lye and water amounts), it is really hard to help at this point.


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## FGOriold (Sep 21, 2014)

How much diluted soap did you have before you added the glycerin?  Is your 2 gallons after the glycerin addition?


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## Kyra (Sep 22, 2014)

Yes, after adding the glycerin. Maybe a bit over 2 gallons, but not much.



FGOriold said:


> How much diluted soap did you have before you added the glycerin?  Is your 2 gallons after the glycerin addition?


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## FGOriold (Sep 22, 2014)

Ok - so you added about 10% glycerin to your diluted soap - correct?  That should not cause a problem - I ask because I have seen something similar when far too much glycerin is added to liquid soap (over 50%) and I did an experiment to test this and while it did not make the entire sample cloudy, it did create a small white layer at the top similar to what you have.  I will post a pick in a bit.

Other than the individual FO's which can be fickle over time, I am not sure what else could be causing it.


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## Kyra (Sep 22, 2014)

That's correct! Thanks so much for your input, Faith! I am looking forward to see that pic. In the meantime I am trying to see my options for checking under a microscope for bacteria or mold. I am not sure if we should use this soap or not, I have a few bottles from this batch, and it would be a waste to throw it away if the issue is simply "cosmetic".


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## Susie (Sep 22, 2014)

I, too, would hesitate to use that soap until I knew for sure what is going on.  Although I am more concerned with oil/FO residue remaining on hands than bacteria, I would still rather be safe than sorry.


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## FGOriold (Sep 22, 2014)

Trying to add a pic - let's see if this works...... This soap has quite a bit more glycerin added to it after dilution than you do (60% glycerin and 40% soap) - but as you can see how it transformed from beautifully clear to that cloudy layer on top over about 3 weeks time.  This soap has no added anything to it either - just the glycerin.


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## Kyra (Sep 22, 2014)

Hmmm... the top layer and the texture left on the bottle looks a lot like what I am dealing with. Yours looks pretty clear on the lower layer, as compared to mine, which is all opaque looking.

I am starting to think it's the glycerin PLUS the fragrance that is causing this to happen. I have a different formula done (made using the 50% Glycerin 50% water for the lye solution)and used the same fragrance. I am curious to see if I'll have the same issues with it. This soap is one month old, no cloudiness yet but I'll be watching it closely.


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