# Etsy or to not Etsy.  That's my question



## LauraHoosier (Oct 14, 2011)

I have quite the mass of soap cured and every one I've given away to test has passed and exceeded expectations of both me and the testers. Everyone I run into locally wants my website address and when I give them the Etsy site a little part of me cries "You're sending them to the competition!" and they respond with a unenthusiastic "Oh.  Ok.  I'll look there when I get a chance.", pocket my business card and leave me with the feeling from their response that I'll never see them again.

Etsy is so over saturated in all of their categories that new sellers, how ever how great their soaps are, get lost unless they're spending 60 hours a week and $60 a month on advertising and buying eye catching Etsy store dressings for $25+.

I'm more interested in growing my budding business locally before worrying about globally.  I also don't care if I have instant $500 per month/week sales.  Being disabled I need to be able to keep up while I slowly grow my business in my home area.  I already have friends and family telling -their- friends and families all over the US that I'm making soap and will soon be selling.  The first response is "That's great!"  and the next "What's her website address"."  I already have hubby's co-workers asking to come over and pick out soaps to buy for Christmas.

And all of that leads to me asking this.  I have someone, who after talking with one of my testers and seeing my soaps he had, offered to make me a website for free if he can use it in his portfolio.  I absolutely said yes but told him not for another 6 months to a year back in July.  Since I am more interested in local sales should I tell him to go ahead and start on it with the goal of having it up by end of winter ie March or so?  And if I have him start are there carts and programs that are easier to maintain and change, add and remove products, update the site looks, that I should ask him to please use?

Edited for typos


----------



## soapbuddy (Oct 14, 2011)

I would go with your own web site and some good SEO. Etsy is way oversaturated with too many similar products.


----------



## Guest (Oct 14, 2011)

I would take up the free site offer, that is so nice that someone would do that for you! It will take them a while to do it, so go ahead and let them get started!


----------



## PrairieCraft (Oct 14, 2011)

After all of the advice on when to sell and suggestions to not sell too soon, you're determined to sell your very first batches of soap?!  You're not even discounting them at all.  The soaps are unfinished as far as cleaning up edges and making them look presentable, the pictures are unstaged and look like you plopped them out of a mold and snapped a quick pic.  If you want to sell this stuff no one can stop you but please stop posting about it on the forum and giving other new soapers the wrong idea.  You started making soap four months ago and are selling a soap that is four months old.  If you have too much soap around then you should pawn it off on friends and family and make smaller batches until you really get it figured out.  When a shopper compares your product to another soap listing that someone has put a lot of time and effort into, who will they buy from?  You have commented on other threads pertaining to the selling too soon topic so I know that you know the stance the forum takes on this matter.

As for your question, try the search feature.  Any website and the work that goes along with it is going to have some cost.  If you're only interested in selling locally anyway, what's the hurry for a website?


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 15, 2011)

Thanks for your input PC.


----------



## Hazel (Oct 15, 2011)

LauraHoosier said:
			
		

> Thanks for your input PC.



Really? That's all you have to say? You've been a member long enough to know that SMF's stance on selling too soon can be detrimental to the reputation of all soapmakers. 

You also don't know how your soap will hold up over time. Some people buy handmade soap and tuck it away to use later. What's your soap going to be like in 6 months or even a year? This isn't an unreasonable question because I've purchased soap in the past and one of the bars was over a year old before I used it.

I know the soaps I make are so much better now than when I started making soap. I'm actually embarrassed now by insisting people try my soaps from the first 9-10 months I was making them. It was closer to a year before I even had a recipe that I considered good enough to keep as a permanent recipe without any more tweaking.

Your response demonstrates to me that you don't have any respect for the members here who are working hard to research and develop the skills in order to create a superior product. By choosing to post your comments and ignoring the advice of soapmakers with years of experience, you've made it very plain that you don't value your membership on this forum. This forum is just a way to suck up the info you need without contributing to the community.


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 15, 2011)

Would you rather I posted up the pissed off rant I had in mind this morning as I cried?  Would that have made you people happy?  It would have solved nothing and just made things worse and I know it.  I appreciate the ass ripping I got and I'm not saying that to be rude or snide.  I -do- appreciate it.  I acted like an adult, bit my tongue and swallowed the harsh words for the wisdom they were.  It means the words sunk in and stuck.  My Etsy thing is down so that should make you all happy.  It means "I get it".  It made me sit back and think things over today.  

I had to have insurance already because I have a few family members that would sue in a blink even if it was from the soap I gave them for free.  I also have it because a few friends insisted on paying me because they know we're tight on cash.  And when I refused payment they went so far as to go behind my back and give the money to my hubby instead.  He doesn't understand the implications of that, I do.  I had to make sure we were protected and they were warned off.  Those are the people I have been telling "I don't have any soap right now" so that I don't hang my ass out any further then I already did.  I don't mind giving away soaps but these folks going behind my back to my hubby to pay bothered me.  See?  Learning is happening.

If you'd rather, I can act like a child and go pull all my pics and stomp off lol that'd be dumb.  Point is to act like that wouldn't do anything but prove I'm not open to criticism.  And I am.  If you'd rather I can drop to my knees and beg for forgiveness or just go elsewhere.  I'm not a good person to talk to, or to post, when I'm hurting like I was this morning.  I need time to absorb and point to myself and say "you know they're right so suck it up".  Sorry my response wasn't tear-filled or got-my-back-up-bitchy but in my opinion to act like that just shows you're not ready.  You guys don't seem to think I take this seriously enough because I didn't freak out so you tell me what you want me to do, ok?

edited to fix one typo then just made another heh


----------



## carebear (Oct 15, 2011)

No, that's not what we want.  Actually, I'd have rather you posted that you agreed.  Or hell, even understood.  I think you have the potential to be a great soaper.  But I also think you have a lot to learn.

I can see you know that from the questions you ask.  Good questions.  But what I don't understand is that after asking and getting great responses, you then blithely ignore the responses.  Makes me go  :?: 

So no, don't go away. Don't shut down.  Just SLOW down.  Enjoy the learning process - once you start selling the fun can fade, and if that happens mid-development you will lose your momentum.

Keep soaping.  Keep contributing and sharing.  Keep learning.

(in a year or two, you will look back at these soaps and cringe.  trust me.  we've been there.)


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 15, 2011)

I wasn't ignoring PC's post.  I simply wasn't giving in to being a baby by ranting at her when she's right.  I don't appreciate it when people assume they know what I'm thinking or feeling off of a 5 word reply and leave me a wall of rant either.  Personally when I read a reply as "quiet" as mine was I assume their soaking the responses in and choosing to not act like an ass on the boards.  

I didn't like the overall tone of "shut up and stop posting your crap when you're clueless" flavor I got from the mods posts but if I'd tried to say that this morning?...omg what a crap storm I'd have flung.  But it would have been wrong.  Wrong attitude.  Wrong reaction.  Wrong words.

Now to know how I am I will tell you this.  I will be keeping quieter on the boards for a little while.  That's how I am after being nailed to the wall, not once but twice, by people assuming they know me as well as your mods assume they do me.  If they really knew me then they'd know that a very stern admonishment of "You shouldn't be selling yet and you know it. *eyes you* Once you have more time under your belt come talk to me." would be all I really needed to hear to get the point.  But to then fly off the handle at me and tell me I don't take this seriously because they read a 5 word answer shows again how you don't know me so try treading a little lighter before you take the bat to me.  I think most other folks would stay quiet for a bit too, afraid to say anything.

ETA: Because I want to make sure this is clear and because CB you asked instead of ranted at me for it.  I *do *agree and I *do *understand what's being stated.  *offers a peace offering to PC and Hazel of a Nerf bat for each of them*


----------



## Hazel (Oct 15, 2011)

No, it doesn't make me happy when people are hurt. Believe it or not, I do not like criticizing or being mean. I like to help people but I was a bit taken aback by your single sentence reply. It didn't come across as an acknowledgement  but more of a dismissive response. 

I apologize if you didn't write your comment in an intentional flippant manner. It's hard viewing written words - there isn't any verbal signals to clarify the context. I really understand being tight on cash and having a difficult time making ends meet. I don't talk about my life or my problems except privately with a few people. Just because I don't post on the forum about my situation doesn't mean I don't know how hard it is and that other people are struggling, too. I empathize with the desire to bring in some money but you want to make absolutely sure your soap is the best you can offer to customers. If you make a batch, sell it after 4 weeks and it goes rancid within a few months then you've not only lost customers but they will complain to others and so on. Your business could be ruined before it ever really getting it started. 

Soapmaking isn't for impatient people. It's hard doing all the testing and tweaking before you can start selling. If people are thrilled with your soaps then continue giving the soap away and getting feedback. But have you considered making other types of bath and body products? You could make bath fizzies, salts, teas, scrubs, whipped butters, etc which don't require a long cure time before you find out if they're just good or absolutely awesome.  

Are you a crafty person? Is there another hobby you do that could produce income? Perhaps jewelry, wreaths, firestarters, wax melts, incense, potpurri. I'm sure there's more but I can't think of anything else right now.


----------



## carebear (Oct 15, 2011)

Good point, Hazel. There are other less complex things that could be great intro products while soaping expertise grows. 

Wax melts are good, and I do beeswax ornaments that are quite sought after.


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 15, 2011)

Right now Hazel what I -can- do is dictated by my Fibromyalgia which has been horrible the last 4 years to the point of I got fired for it when it first came out of remission because it laid me out flat for a week.  I've had stints 4-6 weeks long in bed until I got on a new med almost a year ago.  In the last 4 years I've had added to my diagnosis Osteo-arthritus through out my entire body, rheumatoid starting in my hands, bursitus in both shoulders, tendonitus in my left arm and both achilles tendons.  I do know lots of other crafts most of which my hands or back won't let me do even on good days.

All that junk up there is what dictated why I chose soap first.  That and who I have to help me at home, my hubby.  When soaping I can can do a bunch on good days and not worry about losing out to bad days, even if it turns into bad weeks.  My husband is thrilled to stand at the counter and mix the soap up for me if I ask and sit next to him to direct him.  He "gets" the soap making process and why we do this or that.  He can't understand a lot of the other things I could do.

Why working with lye didn't scare me off when looking at the instructions for the other things you list did is beyond me.  Lye should have had me running away but instead I felt called to it.

ETA: All that ick up there is also why I wanted to say small and local for a while first.


----------



## carebear (Oct 15, 2011)

LauraHoosier said:
			
		

> He "gets" the soap making process and why we do this or that.  He can't understand a lot of the other things I could do.


Same is true of my boyfriend.  Kinda - he still cannot figure out why anyone would make their own instead of buying it - but whatever!  But it's really chemistry, and he likes that about it.

Candles - he really doesn't get them AT ALL.  But actually at holiday time I make more money on wax items - melts and ornaments.  So he pours along with me.  And does the wrapping cuz I suck at that.

I'm sorry things are so rough for you, tho I'm glad you found a medication that helps.

As for your original question - etsy is a great way to start.  You just want to give people the link directly to YOUR page.


----------



## IrishLass (Oct 15, 2011)

Laura- 

I'd like to reiterate all that Carebear said- especially the part about not going away, and also the part about slowing down. Please stay, and keep soaping and learning and contributing.  

I appreciate (and can totally relate to) your soaping enthusiasm. It's hard not to be enthusiastic and jump right into the ring when you find something you love to do that others can also benefit by and enjoy. Trust me, all of us soapers have been there. 

I think I am completely safe in speaking for the majority of us that have been soaping for at least a couple of years or more now, that the longer we soap and the deeper we fall in love with the craft and familiarize ourselves with all the intimate details of it, the more we realize how vitally important it is to take things slow and not jump right into selling. 

Thank you for being so open and honest and willing to forgive. I admire you for your courage in sticking around through the 'trial by fire'. If anything came across as harsh, just know that it's because each of us mods loves our craft to the hilt, and we each feel a particular sense of responsibility and protectiveness to it and to all the new soapers just starting out. In our zeal to protect, though, the proverbial mother cub protecting her young may sometimes rear her head in us, but I hope you can understand in a forgiving way where we are coming from and that we only want the craft and everyone in it (including you) to retain a good name.   


Looking back on when I first started soaping a little over 5 years ago and comparing it to now- I can say without a doubt that I am so glad I did not give into the peer pressure of my family and friends who were clamoring for me to sell that first year of soaping. I would probably have given my soap and myself a bad name and had given up before my soap could have been given the chance to get as good as it is now. 

One of my aunts with a business degree and who is part owner of a salon was especially very persistant, but I had to firmly tell her "No- not yet" in such a way that she finally dropped it. She couldn't understand why I was so reluctant because my soap was nice enough to her, but the fact is that I was doing a lot of reading over on another forum where a lot of newcomers to the craft who were eager to sell too soon were being raked over the coals by the experienced soapers in such a way that would make your hair curl and your lungs to hyperventalate and your knees to knock and your skin to sweat uncontrollably. Lets just say it was the 'ass ripping' that just occurred here multiplied by at least 1000.  :shock:  Such raking, although vicarious, taught me early on that it's best not to be too hasty.  

Well, I can see that more posts have been written as I have sat here typing away, and it looks like some of what I just wrote may be redundant (I hate when that happens! I just take too long to write sometimes).

I like what Hazel said, though, about soapmaking not being for impatient people. Very true.

I'm glad things are resting on a better note, and that the misunderstandings are being cleared up.

Keep on soaping, Laura!  


IrishLass


----------



## Hazel (Oct 16, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear you have so many physical problems. However, many of the bath products are much easier than CP. I can understand the fizzies/bombs would be difficult to pack but you could mix the ingredients and your husband could pack them into molds. He may not understand why people love bath bombs but he might be willing to do it. Salts, teas and potpurri are mainly mixing everything together and packaging. 

Do you have a stand mixer? Here's an easy tutorial for making whipped shea.

http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body- ... -butter-2/

Making tarts or melts is sooo easy. I use soy wax for easy clean up. You just melt the wax, add the FO and pour into molds. Let them cool, pop them out and package. I know some other people add vybar to theirs so they can add extra FO but you do them without it. A lot of people use 6 cavity clamshells to pour the wax into instead of using molds.

Incense is easy, too. I use a rectangular glass dish, mix the DPG & FO, pour them in and then lay the incense sticks into it. Leave them for awhile (based on how lazy I am). Then I take them out, set them on wax paper to dry for several days to a week. 

You could also buy animal bedding (corn cob) from Walmart or Target very inexpensively. Corn cob will absorb FOs very easily and then you can use a spoon to put it in organza bags and sachets. Before the corn cob is completely dry, pour it out on some wax paper and then sprinkle a little craft glitter on it. This makes it sparkly when put into organza bags.

I just thought I'd mention these since they're easy and can be completed quickly.


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 16, 2011)

I did a quick search for soy melt info and didn't really come up with much.  Can you recommend a site where I can go read about it?  

I have bath salts started here with the thought that I can make up lots of these easily.  I have a goodly supply of herbs for bath teas, salts and sachets as well as having muslin bags to pack them.  I had these other things planned for selling but not as my main.

I'll give my insurance agent a call on Monday to see if I'm going to have to get a whole different policy or not.  RLI and USAA may see some of these products as cosmetics even though the government may not so making and selling  lotion, whipped butters, bath teas etc may not be covered by my policy or void my policy.  I'll have to check with my local business licensing agency as well to see if I need to refile or submit a change form.  

I'll start reading and processing info on all ideas to see if I can manage them as I find them but if you could point me to any reliable info sources I'd appreciate the help.


----------



## carebear (Oct 16, 2011)

soy melts are simply soy wax candle melts, or tarts.  wax & FO - no wick, no fire.  they are used in tart warmers.  

there is a ton of candle info, and thus melt info, on craftserver.com (it's also a soaping site, by the way).


----------



## OrganicallyYours (Oct 16, 2011)

Laura,

This may seem a little off topic, but I was reading about your unfortunate situation regarding (what I assume to be) chronic pain largely due to fibromyalgia. My dad has had fibro/arthritis since 99' and his pain was real bad for years...he went to doctor after doctor trying to find sort of relief or treatment that didn't involve pain meds. A couple of years ago he went to a alternative medicine pain specialist and the doctor told him to stop eating wheat, sugar, potatoes and white rice because he might have food sensitivities causing his body to overreact. Long story short when he does stick to this diet and keeps active he is almost pain free. I know how bizarre it sounds but we know the diet is what's helping him because when he does cheat and has a cookie or bread he'll feel his fibro pain within a few hours. Sorry to go off topic, I just wanted to share this info with you in case it might help. Hope you have a good day today and an even better one tomorrow.


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 16, 2011)

OY it doesn't sound bizarre to me at all.  Its a topic I've brought to my own doc a few times.  I the patient that walks in with printed out pages of info from the internet to share with her since she can't reasonably read it all.  She wants me stable on Savella first, then look at what next to change or poke at.  I just went through an increase on my Savella 7-8 months ago so we're at a point I can ask that we look at other things to try next.  

I have an appt on Wednesday to talk with her, get a check up, get papers signed for my handicap placard and a prescription for a wheelchair with Winter coming.  I'll also be asking for a increase in meds for the pain for the really bad days and see if she can get me in to see a dietician.  

I wish I could also afford weekly massage, try out acupuncture and go back to a chiropractor, all things that have been proven to help patients as well for lowering pain and thus, lower need for pain meds but that Medicare scoffs at despite the data.

CB thanks.  That clears up the confusion I had about whether or not I was searching for the right thing.   I'll keep reading.

Hazel I don't have a stand mixer and not sure I can afford one right now but I can keep an eye out on Freecycle, Cheapcycle and newspaper ads.


----------



## Guest (Oct 16, 2011)

I use a stick blender I got at BBB for $49 and it works amazingly well. Like, traces in 5 mins. Stand mixers are $$$. I think the stick blender I have is at Costco for $29. It has like a 600 W motor, and my Vitamix only has about twice that, so it really is a nice little blender, and its all stainless and the arm is pretty long, so it fits all the way down in my 50 gal bucket which is what I use to mix the lye and oils in. 

Anyway back to your OP yes get the person who you know to help you with your blog and your website. You want to pick something that you can easily add an open source shopping cart too when the need arises. Just because you are not ready to sell your soaps yet doesn't mean you are not ready for a website, because it takes some work to get a good site up.


----------



## carebear (Oct 16, 2011)

the stand mixer was suggested for whipped shea, where a stick blender wouldn't be appropriate.


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 16, 2011)

Found out that I have a Golden Brands location here in town.  I can call on Monday to see what their pricing is but all that I've found looks very promising so far. http://www.gfgb.com/candles/candle_products.htm


----------



## Hazel (Oct 16, 2011)

Laura - 

I know stand mixers are expensive because I keep looking at them when I'm in stores. I did see one at a Big Lots/Odd Lots that was only priced for $79 which I thought was a fabulous price. Unfortunately, I didn't have the money.  :cry: 

Do you have a friend or family member who might be willing to give you a mixer? If not, let people know you're interested in one; perhaps someone might find one for you. You never know. That's how I got several silicone molds. I mentioned I wanted some and a friend found them at a Goodwill store.

A friend wrote down the instructions on how to do wax melts but I'm sure there's lots of candle sites which would have info on them. Here's a link to a video which really shows how easy they are to do. It's not very long.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtMbfcUMmcE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtMbfcUMmcE[/ame]


----------



## Guest (Oct 16, 2011)

Oh, sorry I didn't catch that part. 

And to the OP I hope you feel better soon! I know what a pp said about diet I believe really is true. Might as well try eliminating dairy and wheat and just see what happens for a few weeks.


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 17, 2011)

Good news from my insurance agent.  I don't have to change my policy to make lotions, bath teas or bath salts.  They all fall under the "Personal Care Products" section.  Looks like I can make more items under this policy then I ever thought I could. Now I'm even more impressed with my purchase for $190/year for 300K.  Maybe in the next couple months I'll have it upped to the 1Mil for the extra $60.

ETA: I ordered a lotion making kit just to see the process as well as some cocoa butter and shea butter for bath teas, lotions etc and I was thinking of trying one or both in place of the oil in the bath bombs I've started playing with.  I'll post how that goes when I get there.  

Some of this I may have already said but I'm still a bit out of it from not sleeping well.  Insomnia has been visiting me for almost 2 weeks now and I only doubled my sleep meds at bedtime starting last night.  Good thing I see my doc on Weds.


----------



## Sunny (Oct 22, 2011)

carebear said:
			
		

> (in a year or two, you will look back at these soaps and cringe.  trust me.  we've been there.)



for all the future readers out there who keep reading this and going "yeah right, how could my soaps get any better than this?" (which I did)... it's so true, your soaps will get better. I cringe at the terrible quality of my first... 50 batches. haha. at least that many.


LauraH, if you need any help with lotions, I am no expert, but feel free to PM me anytime.

I also think the candles might be a good way to go? They are easy to make. There's not as much of a quality issue at stake there (as there would be with B&B). They also sell for $$! I have not made candles yet but I have never bought a soy candle, from farmer's market or otherwise, that I liked. Just FYI. Worst hot throw ever. (have not used a soy tart before though.)


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks so much for the offer Tasha and I will take you up on it in the next couple weeks.

I'll definitely put the word out that I'm looking, like you said Hazel, since I know I have friends and family that will help beat the bushes to hopefully help me find one.

Oh and the lotion kit?  It was a bomb.  You are sent a gallon of pre-made lotion, a bottle of coloring and 2 ounces of scent.  Mix, bottle and sell.  I won't because it's not made by me.  I'll be picking up ingredients on the first to make my own from scratch and I just ordered the few supplies I needed to make liquid soap.  Looking forward to making both of these


----------



## SoapDoctor (Oct 25, 2011)

*Ready or Not...*

(Post deleted: Undermining of mod/admin/forum standards is not appreciated nor will it be tolerated.- ADMIN)


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm fine with waiting actually since I have many other things I can make that doesn't need to cure.  I have found that my batches done 5 months ago before I started using T-50 Tocopherols are possibly showing signs of DOS and the ones made 4 months ago when I started using it are still looking good.  Is it the T-50?  Not sure but it still bears watching to see if there is a difference.

I also have like how much harder my 50% OO soaps are getting because they will now last longer for customers.  I don't mind waiting a little longer to sell the soaps and I can't wait to see how my lard soap progresses.  In the time since I stated this thread I've learned a lot more about preservatives and will likely start adding one to future soap batches.  

I'm taking a break on soaping until after Christmas due to family events and craft fairs I'm going to try to attend to get my name and lotions, creams, scrubs, salts and liquid soaps out there.  In the end I'd rather know my recipe doesn't cut it after 6 months then have a customer pull out a bar and find it stinking up the joint and giving my products a bad rep.


----------



## Sunny (Oct 25, 2011)

LauraHoosier said:
			
		

> In the end I'd rather know my recipe doesn't cut it after 6 months then have a customer pull out a bar and find it stinking up the joint and giving my products a bad rep.



wise words!


----------



## carebear (Oct 25, 2011)

It's good to take breaks during the development period - let your curing batches catch up with you so you can evaluate them fairly before making tweaks and changes!

T-50 may well retard DOS.  In Dr Dunn's book he talks about using a combo of sodium citrate and BHT as the best he's found; I don't recall the other options he explored.


----------



## LauraHoosier (Oct 27, 2011)

Yup my batches of soap made between 8/23 and 9/13 are hard enough to be used as a weapon lol.

I have the link for the study done on the preservatives http://cavemanchemistry.com/HsmgDos2006.pdf and read it every couple of days so the info will start to stick in my head.

He says there are 3 combinations that worked the best but only notes 2, the one you mention and the combo of ROE + EDTA.  I'll have to read it again to see if I'm just blanking on the third.


----------



## Mouse (Nov 27, 2011)

I know this thread is old, but I wanted to throw in my own experience. I made my first batches in October/November of 2009. I was very excited that year to make soap for my family for Christmas, and did so, with a very elaborate tissue paper wrapping with different stencil-type designs on the paper that I did by hand. My mother kept her soap in a pretty basket in the bathroom for over a year before I picked it up one day and sniffed it. It definitely smelled off, so I unwrapped it and found the most DOS-riddled soap I've ever seen.  It had to have happened over a course of several months. I tossed it in the trash immediately. 
In the two years I've been working at it, I only have a handful of soaps that are even close to "foolproof". I am so glad I was lurking through this forum even back then, or I would not have understood DOS, or shelf life, or the importance of testing and waiting out a new formula.
I still don't sell, even after lots of urging and encouragement from friends and family, including DH, who stresses sometimes about the expense. He is a glass artist, and can sell his work without fear of a lawsuit because of potential skin reactions. It took some time for him to understand my hesitation. I think now he appreciates that I protected us.
The mods here can be shockingly  harsh, but I trust them on this. What they say has borne out, in my own experience.


----------

