# how to make a runny / liquidy lotion with beeswax?



## alexia11 (Oct 8, 2010)

Hi there, i have made several creams with beeswax and I love it but I wondering if any of you has created a lotion (meaning it is runny, very liquidy) with beeswax. Please note I made my creams 100% organic and I do not want to use e wax, borax, lanolin or any other chemicals.
if you can share your percentage oil/ water/beeswax, I would greatly appreciated it!

I was also wondering if you made a whipped shea butter, can it get runny without any beeswax?!

Thanks!!


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## soapbuddy (Oct 9, 2010)

I don't think you can, unless you just use a combo of liquid oils. Those would end up a runny consistency. 
Any product that has water in it (like a lotion) will require a preservative to sell. Currently, there are no truly natural preservatives on the market for us handcrafters.
Do you get your 100% organic creams tested? If not, I would suggest that you do. The testing is quite reasonable at The Sage Script Institute.


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## Lindy (Oct 9, 2010)

To create a lotion you are emulsifying oil into water and this requires the binding of an ewax.  You also need to know that Emulsifying Wax (E-Wax) is vegetable derived.

Lanolin is also an organic since it comes from sheep, it's not a chemical.

Preservatives - Tinosan claims to be a natural preservative, however it has limitations with regards to PH levels.  You would need to test your formulations to make sure that nothing is growing.  If you need other posts on preservatives in this section you can see the discussions that have already occurred.  The most effective preservatives are the chemicals and when used correctly they are safe.  There are a lot out there that are paraben & formaldehyde free.  There are lots of "natural" products that claim to preserve, they don't, they are anti-oxidants only.  Do the research and you will be surprised.....

Good luck with your formulating.....


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## Hazel (Oct 9, 2010)

soapbuddy said:
			
		

> I don't think you can, unless you just use a combo of liquid oils. Those would end up a runny consistency.
> Any product that has water in it (like a lotion) will require a preservative to sell. Currently, there are no truly natural preservatives on the market for us handcrafters.
> Do you get your 100% organic creams tested? If not, I would suggest that you do. The testing is quite reasonable at The Sage Script Institute.



Thanks for posting! I went and looked at this site because I've been wondering about having my lotions and creams tested. Now I know where to send samples if I ever decide selling might be possible.


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## Earthchild (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm with the others.  Unless you want to create a thin, anhydrous product using only oils and wax (which won't actually be a "lotion"), you will need an emulsifier.  Beeswax is a thickener, but it doesn't have the ability to emulsify water and oil.  Also, there are no completely natural, effective preservatives on the market.  If you want to go totally natural and organic you will have to stick with anhydrous products.  Though with a "mostly natural" label you can make lovely, amazing products - from lotions/creams to hair conditioners, shampoos, and anything else you can dream up.  All with a little e-wax and preservative.  Good luck!


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## carebear (Oct 9, 2010)

beeswax, in combination with borax, can act as an emulsifier, but frankly it's not great.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/vi ... 340067e593


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## Earthchild (Oct 9, 2010)

True, though while I've had it work, the results are never as pleasant as with e-wax.  Still, OP if you don't want to use borax or e-wax, or any other partly unnatural emulsifier, than stable emulsification just isn't going to be possible.  HTH!


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## carebear (Oct 9, 2010)

how about lecithin?


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## IanT (Oct 10, 2010)

Also, another thing to think of (from a massage therapists' standpoint) Is that when you use lotion that has beeswax in it, it tends to ball up after you rub it in because the wax is not absorbed into the skin. Beeswax is one of the more heavy waxes available on the market. Why do you want to create a very runny lotion? Just curious, what is your application? personal or professional use?

It all make s a difference


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## alexia11 (Oct 11, 2010)

*thanks so much for your replies*

I am quite surprised some of you say that you cant combine oil and water with beeswax because this is all I use and it works very well!
just give it a try one day if you are doubful, I usually do 60% oil / butter with 35% water or floral water and 5% beeswax. I really like those creams, some of them are light and do not leave a greasy feeling, it all depends what kind of oils you are using.

I never use any conservateurs or any other chemicals. Borax (or sodium borate) , lanolin, ewax or lecitin are all chemically made. if you dont believe me just look at each on this website http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com 
there are Government, industry, academic studies and classifications. 
I dont want to get on this debate but I suggest you just get yourself informed on what you are putting on your skin.

I was just curious to know if some of you created a runny lotion with beeswax but i guess ill keep experimenting on my own.

thanks all of you for replying!


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## soapbuddy (Oct 11, 2010)

Alexia11,
Take a look at this database. http://personalcaretruth.com/
I take the one that you posted with a grain of salt.


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## carebear (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: thanks so much for your replies*



			
				alexia11 said:
			
		

> I am quite surprised some of you say that you cant combine oil and water with beeswax because this is all I use and it works very well!
> just give it a try one day if you are doubful, I usually do 60% oil / butter with 35% water or floral water and 5% beeswax. I really like those creams, some of them are light and do not leave a greasy feeling, it all depends what kind of oils you are using.


you forgot to mention that you use a preservative to keep it safe.  I'm sure it was an oversight, but because we have lots of folks new to lotion making and such on the forum it's important to keep that on your ingredient list.


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## dagmar88 (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: thanks so much for your replies*



			
				carebear said:
			
		

> alexia11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



_"I never use any conservateurs"_
No, she doesn't, and I bet there's nothing anyone can say to change that. Just hoping any new lotion makers won't follow her example and take the risk of hurting themselves and/or others.


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## alexia11 (Oct 11, 2010)

thanks soapbuddy, its an interesting website but I could not see any cream recipes? can you point me to the page?

Carebear, i use essential oils and vitamin e as natural preservatives. works great; of course the organic cream I make do not have a very long shelve life like the one chemically made but the shelve life is at least two months. 
the butter I make can last up to one year since there is no water.

@ dagmar88 I find your comment rather ofensive...just stick to use your chemicals if they suit you. no need to scare poeple if they prefer natural products. I suggest you do a little bit of research, I have several books with natural recipes, I dont think they would be published if they were "hurting" poeple like you say... There are also more and more product on the market with no chemical preservatives. no need to reply I got no time for poeple like you.


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## Deda (Oct 11, 2010)

alexia11 said:
			
		

> Hi everyone, I am trying new things and got totally addicted to make face creams, body lotion, body butter, lip balms all natural and organic made with beeswax. Can you share your favorite recipes and or formula please?
> I am eager to try new things and getting inspired. Thanks!!



You posted this less than 2 weeks ago?
Now you "got no time for poeple like you."


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## dagmar88 (Oct 11, 2010)

alexia11 said:
			
		

> thanks soapbuddy, its an interesting website but I could not see any cream recipes? can you point me to the page?
> 
> Carebear, i use essential oils and vitamin e as natural preservatives. works great; of course the organic cream I make do not have a very long shelve life like the one chemically made but the shelve life is at least two months.
> the butter I make can last up to one year since there is no water.
> ...



It wasn't meant to be offensive towards you; more to emphasize the importance of using a broadspectrum preservative in aqueous products.

Essential oils and Vitamin E are not preservatives and can not be used for this purpose.
Thank you for the suggestion; I've been doing my research for several years.


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## alexia11 (Oct 11, 2010)

deda,

I did not start making creams two week ago..just said I was trying new formulas...and was interested in getting ideas and sharing knowledge. isnt it what a forum is about!!??
however I am not interested in getting comment like you or dagmar so please delete my account asap.
thank you very much for your kind understanding.


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## dubnica (Oct 11, 2010)

alexia11 said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone, I hope someone can help, I am new and very eager to make my first boby lotion!
> I used the following ingredients:
> - Beewax
> - aloe vera
> ...



But you did post this on July 28....


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## PrairieCraft (Oct 11, 2010)

I did a little research the last time one of these types of threads came along.  Seems like the anti-preservative people are all the same, quoting that website and getting all upset.  There is a lady with a website somewhere on the west coast, who goes on a rant about how her formulas don't need preservatives and then goes on to say that she doesn't find it necessary to have her products sent out for "expensive testing" either, that because they are all natural they must be safe.  Kinda scary, most consumers aren't informed enough to know better.  If you really and truly want to be all natural then making up a batch of cream with oils that were shipped here from thousands of miles away isn't really natural, is it?  Even product with preservatives go bad more quickly than you would think.  I bet your lotion is full of bacteria way sooner than 2 months.  But bacteria are natural, right. :wink:


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## carebear (Oct 11, 2010)

Just to make sure things are clear...
do not make lotion without PROPERLY preserving it. 
vitamin E can act as an antioxidant, but doesn't do **** against molds and fungus.
some essential oils have some preservative effect - this does NOT mean that tossing them into your formula will adequately protect it.  

and just for fun and posterity... (if you haven't read the whole thread above, be sure to read to the end of this post!)


			
				alexia11 said:
			
		

> Hi there, i have made several creams with beeswax and I love it but I wondering if any of you has created a lotion (meaning it is runny, very liquidy) with beeswax. Please note I made my creams 100% organic and I do not want to use e wax, borax, lanolin or any other chemicals.
> if you can share your percentage oil/ water/beeswax, I would greatly appreciated it!
> 
> I was also wondering if you made a whipped shea butter, can it get runny without any beeswax?!
> ...





			
				alexia11 said:
			
		

> I am quite surprised some of you say that you cant combine oil and water with beeswax because this is all I use and it works very well!
> just give it a try one day if you are doubful, I usually do 60% oil / butter with 35% water or floral water and 5% beeswax. I really like those creams, some of them are light and do not leave a greasy feeling, it all depends what kind of oils you are using.
> 
> I never use any conservateurs or any other chemicals. Borax (or sodium borate) , lanolin, ewax or lecitin are all chemically made. if you dont believe me just look at each on this website http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com
> ...





			
				alexia11 said:
			
		

> thanks soapbuddy, its an interesting website but I could not see any cream recipes? can you point me to the page?
> 
> Carebear, i use essential oils and vitamin e as natural preservatives. works great; of course the organic cream I make do not have a very long shelve life like the one chemically made but the shelve life is at least two months.
> the butter I make can last up to one year since there is no water.
> ...





			
				alexia11 said:
			
		

> deda,
> 
> I did not start making creams two week ago..just said I was trying new formulas...and was interested in getting ideas and sharing knowledge. isnt it what a forum is about!!??
> however I am not interested in getting comment like you or dagmar so please delete my account asap.
> thank you very much for your kind understanding.





			
				dubnica said:
			
		

> alexia11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Besides posting this last message, you've asked very basic lotion questions - something welcome here, but which make it clear you do not have expertise or practice in lotion.  for example, you are not familiar with the concept of an emulsifier.  nothing to be embarrassed about, but kinda key to mixing oils and water.

Perhaps you've worked with anhydrous systems in the past, and are expert on those, but add water, and it's a whole new arena.


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## Earthchild (Oct 11, 2010)

Ah, the Vit E as preservative, beeswax is an emulsifier crowd.  It's always so frustrating, but what can you do?  Those of us who have done the most rudimentary, basic research into cosmetic chemistry/formulation know better.  It's just unfortunate that these people get out and sell their products, thereby giving reputable sellers who work hard to formulate a quality product a bad name.  I was just at my local co-op a few days ago and there was the locally made cream with oil, water, beeswax, no preservative and a tester jar - FULL OF MOLD!  Surprise, surprise.  And a gross layer of oil sitting on top to boot.  I took the cream to the store owner, who was very embarrassed. I just explained to her that you can expect nothing else from this type of formula.  Hopefully they will no longer be carrying this persons products.

For the record, there is no such thing as an "all-natural" ingredient.  Everything we use has been processed, everything.  Unless you are growing your own almonds, expeller or cold pressing them yourself, and packaging them in sterile conditions, you are buying processed, chemically-exposed almond oil.  It's the nature of the world, and we are all better off for it!  I love "all-natural" ingredients, but not so natural it supports life on its own!  Also, any contaminated lotion (and you can't see microscopic contamination) rubbed into abraded skin can cause staff and other nasty infections.  Not only is it irresponsible to inflict these things on other people because you are uninformed, but it also opens the door to lawsuits.  That seems fair for the irresponsible crafter, but not for the distrust in homecrafting it breeds, thereby hurting the rest of us.

Lastly, beeswax as an emulsifier has been discussed at length on this and other forums.  Here's what I had to say last time:  

"we are confusing "binding/hardening/thickening agent" with "emulsifier" - a common mistake. Here is the definition of emulsion: "emulsions are combination of oil and water held together by a bridge (an emulsifier) that has a water-loving and an oil-loving end." Beeswax is commonly referred to as an emulsifier, but it technically is not; it is only an "emulsifier" in the sense that it can bind oil and wax or butter (all hydrophobic substances). But beeswax on its own does not have the chemical composition to take a hydrophobic substance, such as oil, and make it hydrophilic (water loving). Beeswax "adds hardness and works with borax to emulsify ingredients." If a water/oil emulsion is created without the use of an alkali/soaping agent (ie borax), it is likely done through continual agitation of the water/oil combo, which redistributes the water molecules - but only temporarily. Without repeated agitation this emulsion will not remain stable. Parafin, soy, candelilla wax - all of these are simply wax compounds very similar to beeswax that lend thickness to a cream, but cannot bind water molecules on their own. 

Which is why we add an alkali, such as borax (or ingredients such as lecithin though it is less stable). "The beeswax is emulsified by the borax to yield fatty acid borates (salts) and fatty alcohols. It’s kind of like making a soap out of borax. The borax actually makes the emulsifier." This is why we use borax in laundry - it emulsifies fats in water. I have also been doing this for more than ten years, and I don't want anyone to go through the same frustration I went through in the beginning - or waste as many materials! When I see a recipe that lists beeswax and water, but no ingredient to emulsify the beeswax, I just skip it. I know it does not have the chemical composition to be a stable emulsion with a lovely texture."

Just a little knowledge goes a very long (safe) way!


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## soapbuddy (Oct 11, 2010)

A lot of people base their lotion or cream on Galen's cold cream recipe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_cream
His invention didn't have a preservative, but that's because preservatives of today were not available 2,000 years ago. During that time period many medicines were not available, penicillin has not been invented yet and many people died from diseases that are preventable today.


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## Earthchild (Oct 12, 2010)

Galen's cream, and others like it, are valuable formulations.  The difference here is that they are water-in-oil formulas (cream, cold cream), as opposed to oil-in-water formulas (lotions).  The only type of emulsion compatible with beeswax/borax is the w/o formulation, as it does not have the stability issues of a o/w formula.  But beeswax/borax is not the most suitable for the thin lotion the OP is looking for.  Though the OP didn't want to use borax either, I understand, so I'm not sure what the answer is.


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## Rhea (Aug 22, 2012)

Well hello! I've been making lotions for a while and I do not use preservatives either! I have studied a lot, and I concluded that preservatives are really needed for commercial lotions because they store these things for up to 3 years! The thing is, that when you make a homemade lotion, the point is to use it as fresh as possible, not put it on the shelf to make a collection of floral aromas! Unless your lotion stings it is ok! If once it smelled like roses and now smells like cheese, then it has gone bad, probably because of the pH levels elevated (cause as we know acid protects from bacteria, that's why we use lemon as a house cleanser  ).  

Even If you see mold on it ( which I have only seen when using xanthan gum trying to make it somewhat gel-like), mold only stays on surface and you can get rid of it. I would throw them away, but if you don't want to, then be aware because there might be a rash or itchiness. Then throw them away ASAP. 

Also if you use sterile water and equipment, it is quite impossible to get fungi or bacteria, if you get, you should probably blame your dirty hands (if sticking fingers in them) - no offence! has happened to me! Anyways, I'm going back to work after a month, so I should examine the all-natural lotions, by cultivating some samples of older and newer lotions of mine. I'll let you know what kind of bacteria or fungi grew, if any! 

As for the emulsifiers, nothing is 100% safe. You just have to read, and make your decisions. Borax is a cleanser and if used for years, it can bleach the skin. Lecithin can be toxic for some people. both of then provide w/o emultions, which means you don't get that much hydrated, but surtainly absorb all the good oil quallities. (haven't really studied about the stearic acid, but I hear it can cause irritation, too)

If you want a BIG TIME hydrating lotion, you have the other two options: ewax. it can either be of sls or PEGs, one creating skin irritation, dehydration and blindness (this is true, when used close to the eye) and the other it is said to elevate hormone levels ( women hormons). 

I personally use PEG ewax for an o/w emulsion, because from what I have read, it seems less harmful from sls, but I try using as little as possible! For an w/o, I use a co-emulsifier (cetyl alcohol) because it is the most natural I can get, and I  don't mind my lotion seperating and shaking it again. If you use shea butter and heavy oils, it might not separate at all! 

I hope somebody can tell an opinion!


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## Hazel (Aug 22, 2012)

I suggest you do further research in lotion making. I highly recommend Swift's blog. http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/

Yeast, bacteria, fungi and mold can all start to grow with 24 hours in an unpreserved product. Why Cosmetics Need a Preservative


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## Lindy (Aug 23, 2012)

Rhea said:
			
		

> Well hello! I've been making lotions for a while and I do not use preservatives either! I have studied a lot, and I concluded that preservatives are really needed for commercial lotions because they store these things for up to 3 years! The thing is, that when you make a homemade lotion, the point is to use it as fresh as possible, not put it on the shelf to make a collection of floral aromas! Unless your lotion stings it is ok! If once it smelled like roses and now smells like cheese, then it has gone bad, probably because of the pH levels elevated (cause as we know acid protects from bacteria, that's why we use lemon as a house cleanser  ).  Rhea preservatives *are* necessary, end of discussion.  There is hard science behind this, not a bunch of woo woo stuff.  I'm not talking about preserving it into the next century, but I want it to last long enough to be used up, which is 6 months after opening.  There are preservatives these days that are eco-certified - Geo-Guard is the first one that comes to mind.  When testing a lotion to see if it has "gone off" it can be much subtler than smell of appearance.  Unless you have a testing kit then you really have no idea what's growing in there.  If you don't believe me, send your lotion out for a challenge test.
> 
> Even If you see mold on it ( which I have only seen when using xanthan gum trying to make it somewhat gel-like), mold only stays on surface and you can get rid of it. I would throw them away, but if you don't want to, then be aware because there might be a rash or itchiness. Then throw them away ASAP. Again you have to be kidding right?  It's only on the surface?  If you see mold on a product throw it out, do not pass go or your trash tin, get rid of it as quickly as you can.
> 
> ...



Please, take the time to do some serious research.  There are some fabulous tutorials and recipes on this site.  There are many members who have *successfully* being making safe lotions that are available for sale for many years and if you are willing to actually learn from them, they will share that experience.

So much of the advice you are sharing is actually dangerous, and again if you aren't concerned for your health and safety that's fine, but please don't put other people's health and safety at risk.

I'm sorry I sound so harsh, and perhaps a little sarcastic on this, but you have no idea how many people come in here spreading nonsense like this.  This is a teaching forum and because it is, safety MUST be our first concern.


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## Rhea (Aug 23, 2012)

Hi again, thank you Hazel for the website you provided me with, it was very kind of you.

Lindy, your cristisism to my opinion is more than welcomed, and you don't have to be offensive or harsh if you don't want to, whichever the case, I really do not mind. I have one question though, are you concerned about the bacteria-attitude I mentioned, or did you find something else wrong too? (because i didn't get that, and if you did I would like to know your opinion).

and yes, I have been studying a lot, I even graduated face aesthetics, that's why I am quite sure that when a product is no good anymore, it changes consistancy and odour. I am not saying anything against your opinion of safety though, don't be confused  but it seems like every preservative available is considered dangerous, so I would rather use my lotion for 2 months, keeping it in the fridge, without any more chemicals( ewax is enough). 

Do you know any safe preservative, apart from essential oils(which I know don't work as preservatives exactly) or citric acid(same here)? 

(sorry for the spelling mistakes)


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## Rhea (Aug 23, 2012)

I am sorry I am new to this site, I just saw you comments, I'm going to read them now, thank you!


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## Rhea (Aug 23, 2012)

I will name my paragraphs 1...6! ok?

1) ok, I will check up on this preservative, thank you. and as for a challenge testing, that's what I said, I am going to test them at work, I am a medical lab assistant, I can cultivate anything and get a result in 48 hours, I will let you know! (but I am on vacation, so until September I won't be able to do it). 

2) I said I throw them away, but if somebody, who doesn't want preservatives, and wants to keep the molded product, should be careful because rashes and itchyness will probably occur. and if so, then 100% should through it away. I did say that. 

3) I 'm testing it next month, and, do blame your dirty hands! you have no idea what's on them! that's why pump lotion bottles should be used as a default bottle. it is best.

4) I know that it is part of some oils, but still, if I use it up to 2 percent (which is the most you should use), I don't know what is going to happen. and as I said, I am not that much into stearic acid, I have no idea what is going on in terms of safety. I mentioned it, as simple as that.

5) ok now, you are being irrational (no offence). do you know what vegetable ewax is made of? it is made out of cetearyl alcohol and a) the non NF formula: SLS which is sodium laurYL sulfate ( sodium laureth sulfate is mentioned as SLES). particularly, 80% of cetearyl alcohol and 20% of SLS. this kind of ewax (which people often use in soaps in europe) can be used up to 10% tops, 2% of SLS is said to be ok, but the real safe percentage is less than 0.5% of SLS, which means it is safe to use aproximately 1/4 of tsp of that wax. b)the NF formula is made of cetearyl alcohol and polysorbate 60. polysorbate 60 is the emulsifier. I am not stupid, I didn't say PEGs are emulsifiers, but the NF formula has PEGs in it. At least the one I am able to find. If you get ewax NF with just polysorbate and cetearyl, please suggest your supplier. so to end with this matter, I ment there are two popular ewaxes, one is made of sls and the other has PEGs. I had to seperate them somehow, so we could know what we are talking about. 

6)PEG is not an emulsifier, agreed.


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## Lindy (Aug 23, 2012)

I have tested lotions that looked fine the same day as being made and this was with a preservative which ended up being defective and had huge cultures of bacteria showing up immediately.  I never use ungloved hands when making my products because I do want to make sure I'm not passing over bacteria from my skin to the product.  My jars and bottles are pre-sterilized using ethanol.  There was no indication in the cream visually or scent wise to indicate that there was a problem, it was only by testing that I discovered that the preservative had failed.  As Hazel mentioned bacteria starts to grow within 24 hours in a product.

There are a couple of different Emulsifying waxes.  E-Wax NF & BTMS.  BTMS contains more ingredients than E-Wax and the INCI for it demonstrates it (Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol) whereas E-Wax is Emulsifying Wax NF and is also sold under the brand name of Polowax.

I came down hard on you because you were making recommendations that were simply unsafe.  Have you ever seen what bacteria, yeast and mold in a lotion can do to skin?  Staph is present in pretty much everything including human skin.  Unpreserved lotions & creams can create a staph infection and it is the antibiotic resistant staph which causes/is flesh eating disease.  You are new to the forum, if you saw just how many people come through here that promote this 100% natural ideal which any experienced lotion maker knows to be dangerous.  It gets really, really tiring.  IF you are willing to spend the money on a preservative which is Eco-Certified then Geo-Guard is the way to go.

Supporting preservatives is not sheep being led by "The Producers", it is good science and has been proved by scientists and clinicians that are not associated to the chemical companies.

Take the time to read some of the posts here about preservatives, and please take the time to educate yourself before promoting unsafe manufacturing practices.

Cheers


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## Hazel (Aug 23, 2012)

Rhea said:
			
		

> and yes, I have been studying a lot, I even graduated face aesthetics, that's why I am quite sure that when a product is no good anymore, it changes consistancy and odour.



I am a state licensed esthetician and I don't know what school you attended but at my school we had classes that covered microbiology, skin diseases, infection control and cosmetic ingredients which included preservatives. Products certainly can have microorganisms growing in them without any physical change in color, consistency or odor. You might consider doing more research on pathogenic bacteria. 

I didn't think Lindy's comments sounded harsh at all. I appreciate her sharing her knowledge and I also recommend you go through the forum and read her older posts. You'll learn a lot from her. If you read through the Bath and Body Forum, you'll find numerous discussions on preservatives and why we support the use of them.

*Finally, this forum advocates good manufacturing practices and the use of preservatives in all products whether for personal use or for selling. *


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