# Lotion question



## PrairieLights (Feb 11, 2016)

Picking your brains...
My sister wants me to make her a lotion that is less oily but still moisturizing, than my body butter or lotion bar. She uses it as her "perfume", and she wants to be able to put it on throughout the day without that time oil takes to "soak" in. I was using avalon's unscented base, but she is allergic to aloe, so I used a different one for her and it is oily. She wants me to make hers from scratch.

I suppose what I am asking is... any ideas on moisture verses oily? I don't have the problem she does - It all soaks in after a few minutes - But I do understand what she wants.

Is lotion really going to make it less oily for her, yet still moisturizing? 

I emailed her to ask which oils work best with her skin, because that may be the culprit.

But I am interested in your thoughts and opinions.

Thank you!


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 11, 2016)

"...Is lotion really going to make it less oily for her, yet still moisturizing?..."

Speaking in general, yes. Lotion is usually going to feel less oily or greasy than an anhydrous product like a body butter. 

The water dilutes the fats so a dollop of lotion has less fat than the same size dollop of body butter. Also the water makes it easier to spread the fats over the skin, and this also helps spread the fat in a thinner layer on the skin.

That said, your choice of fats in a lotion will also make a big difference. There are lighter and drier feeling fats (meadowfoam, coconut oil) and heavier and greasier feeling fats (olive). You can also use an emulsifier that does double duty as a non-oil-based conditioner (BTMS or conditioning emulsifier).

Susan at Swift Crafty Monkey is a great resource for lotion making info: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/


----------



## IrishLass (Feb 11, 2016)

I think I understand where your sis is coming from. For example, I love my anhydrous body butter for certain areas of my body, but I don't like using it as a hand moisturizer or facial moisturizer, no matter what kind of oil or butter I make it with. Both my hands and face feel more 'moisturized', yet less greasy/oily when I use lotion on them instead. I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but that's the way it is with me. I suppose that's because my body butter is 100% fat and it forms more of a barrier rather than 'sinking in', while lotion on the other hand contains water, which forms less of a barrier and feels more hydrating to me.

I also make an emulsified body butter, which is hydrous (contains water), and I use that on my face and hands. I use LotionCrafter's "Body Butter Bliss" formula to make it (the formula is on their site). Wonderful stuff!


*Edited to add*- DeeAnna beat me to it yet again! lol

IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 11, 2016)

One point you bring out, IL, is that the water in a lotion helps hydrate the surface layer of skin, and that can be really soothing and refreshing. An anhydrous product can't give that same "tall drink of cool water" feeling.


----------



## snappyllama (Feb 11, 2016)

For all things B&B, I highly recommend Point of Interest! Swift Craft Monkey site. There is gobs of great information there. She has an eBook with proceeds going to charity called Introduction to Lotionmaking that consolidates a lot of the information on the site. I've found it an excellent guide. 

Here's her formula for a light lotion. I love that she gives the "why" behind her choices. 

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/04/lotions-facial-moisturizers.html


----------



## doriettefarm (Feb 11, 2016)

I'll ditto DeeAnna & snappy's suggestion to check out the SwiftCraftMonkey site . . . what a wealth of info there!  Also wanted to link a recipe that I recently tried and really liked because it was a thick lotion without any oily feel whatsoever.  I used a WSP recipe but subbed kokum butter for the hemp butter (because my hemp butter was rancid & yucky).  Hemp & kokum are supposed to be 'drier' oils so maybe your sis will dig it.

http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/education/recipes/hemp-lotion-from-scratch.aspx


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 12, 2016)

I also recommend making up very small test batches. I now have a shelf full of samples and cannot say i one one I am completely in love with. I am working on an emulsified butter. Oils, and especially butters and emulsifiers make huge differences in the feel. I take a recipe I think I like then run small samples with each emulsifier I have to test the difference.


----------



## PrairieLights (Feb 12, 2016)

You all rock! 
I had checked out monkey and wsp... It is so hard for me to sit and read from the computer. It makes me anxious, for some reason. Therefore, SCM site is a hard read for me. Is there a place that gives the percentages? (like soap calculators do?). She thinks she'd like olive and coconut oils... If I knew my percentages, I could get that magic e-wax (said in a mysterious voice) and start small samples.

Everyone has helpful advice, as always. The water and emulsifying wax must be what she is looking for. I know that any preservative will be an issue though. 

Blabbing now: I'd ordinarily have her search preservatives, recipes, etc, and make her choice, but she is not well. It is hard enough for her to email me back. So - thank you SO MUCH for letting me pick your brains instead! I really appreciate all of you!!! <3

Hey Carolyn - we are from so cal - she is still there. ;-)

HEY! P.S. - I noticed on avalon's lotion that one ingredient is potassium hydroxide!!! What is up with that?!?!


----------



## PrairieLights (Feb 12, 2016)

Ah, I see her percentages. Now to make decisions....................:think:
-LisaB


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2016)

"...I noticed on avalon's lotion that one ingredient is potassium hydroxide!!! What is up with that?!?! ..."

I can't speak about "avalon's lotion" but I can tell you that small amounts of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide are used sometimes to adjust the pH. Nothing to get worried about.


----------



## Misschief (Feb 13, 2016)

I went through a struggle trying to make a lotion for myself that would absorb quickly, yet moisturize my hands. I work with paper so greasy fingers are not a good thing. I'm also a knitter; greasy hands and yarn do not play well together. I downloaded Anne L. Watson's Lotionmaking ebook and started doing some online research about the qualities of oils and absorption.

I came across a couple of websites that explain some of the properties of oils used in skin care and found it very helpful. I've also attached a link to a pdf from WSP's website that was very informative. Using those resources and Anne Watson's ebook, I came up with a lovely cream that sinks in within moments and leaves my hands feeling moisturized without being greasy. The recipe I used is from the ebook and uses macadamia oil, shea butter, apricot kernel oil, avocado oil, rosehip oil, evening primrose oil, stearic acid, ewax and Vit E. I used green tea as my water. 



http://www.zhealthinfo.com/carrier.htm 

View attachment OilsAndButters.pdf


----------



## cmzaha (Feb 13, 2016)

Misschief said:


> I went through a struggle trying to make a lotion for myself that would absorb quickly, yet moisturize my hands. I work with paper so greasy fingers are not a good thing. I'm also a knitter; greasy hands and yarn do not play well together. I downloaded Anne L. Watson's Lotionmaking ebook and started doing some online research about the qualities of oils and absorption.
> 
> I came across a couple of websites that explain some of the properties of oils used in skin care and found it very helpful. I've also attached a link to a pdf from WSP's website that was very informative. Using those resources and Anne Watson's ebook, I came up with a lovely cream that sinks in within moments and leaves my hands feeling moisturized without being greasy. The recipe I used is from the ebook and uses macadamia oil, shea butter, apricot kernel oil, avocado oil, rosehip oil, evening primrose oil, stearic acid, ewax and Vit E. I used green tea as my water.
> 
> ...


Those are quite expensive oils to play around with and I am afraid of Teas as water. Lotion does like to grow bugs. Maybe DeeAnna will give her opinion on that. Recently I joined a swap in which we were comparing emulsifiers and I do fine it one of the biggest factors in the feel of lotion. Today I am going to run the same recipe and compare using stearic /versus cetyl alcohol. 
I not to sure I would trust using tea, but maybe DeeAnna will give her opinion. Watsons book did not impress me especially with the comment of not using preservatives. 
Here is a lovely simple recipe that you can adjust by lowering the water, upping the oils or butters. I did find a big difference between Polawax and Creammaker from Lotion Crafter. This is not originally my recipe but from some folks at the Dish, our swap recipe. I happen to really like it but I cannot use shea in my lotion due to being allergic and so far I have not found a butter that gives the exact same feel. 
Approx 69% water
6% Polawax or your wax of preferance. The supplier of your wax will give the usage range
3% Cetyl Alcohol
7% Olive
7% Fractionated Coconut Oil
7% Shea Butter
Preservative per amount necessary for type of preservative. 
Remember to keep have your percentages equal 100%.


----------



## Misschief (Feb 13, 2016)

I do use Optiphen in my lotions. I, too, wouldn't trust teas in my creams and lotions unless I was storing them in the fridge and only making enough to last a few days. The only reason I downloaded her ebook was to see what information I could glean. I've been collecting creams and lotions recipes for quite some time. Hers come through as being on the "simple" side. Like you, the fact that she doesn't always use a preservative; the recipe I "followed" did use one because of the use of tea. I would have added it if it wasn't in the recipe.

I agree that they are expensive oils to "play around" with. For me, though, I was going more for the properties of the oils rather than the price. I am, after all, worth it!   I was able to source all of the oils locally, at my health food store and have most of them on hand. As well, I've been making my own creams and lotions (never selling) for over 10 years. I love this stuff.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 13, 2016)

Misschief said:


> I went through a struggle trying to make a lotion for myself that would absorb quickly, yet moisturize my hands. I work with paper so greasy fingers are not a good thing. I'm also a knitter; greasy hands and yarn do not play well together. I downloaded Anne L. Watson's Lotionmaking ebook and started doing some online research about the qualities of oils and absorption.
> 
> I came across a couple of websites that explain some of the properties of oils used in skin care and found it very helpful. I've also attached a link to a pdf from WSP's website that was very informative. Using those resources and Anne Watson's ebook, I came up with a lovely cream that sinks in within moments and leaves my hands feeling moisturized without being greasy. The recipe I used is from the ebook and uses macadamia oil, shea butter, apricot kernel oil, avocado oil, rosehip oil, evening primrose oil, stearic acid, ewax and Vit E. I used green tea as my water.
> 
> ...



That looks like a lovely recipe but I can't use any tree nut oils in lotions. Is there anything that can be subbed for macademia oil?


----------



## goodjoan (Feb 13, 2016)

If she just wants the scent without the lotion, why not make her a little lotion bar but put it in a chap stick tube so she can apply a little now and then. Using beeswax and a fairly "dry" oil like coconut she should be able to put it on and have it dry quickly but stay scented.


----------



## Misschief (Feb 13, 2016)

Arimara said:


> That looks like a lovely recipe but I can't use any tree nut oils in lotions. Is there anything that can be subbed for macademia oil?



You could sub any oil, really. What about meadowfoam oil? It's lovely, too.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 13, 2016)

Misschief said:


> You could sub any oil, really. What about meadowfoam oil? It's lovely, too.



Never used it. I hear enough good things about it to try it..


----------



## Seawolfe (Feb 13, 2016)

cmzaha said:


> Those are quite expensive oils to play around with and I am afraid of Teas as water. Lotion does like to grow bugs. Maybe DeeAnna will give her opinion on that. Recently I joined a swap in which we were comparing emulsifiers and I do fine it one of the biggest factors in the feel of lotion. Today I am going to run the same recipe and compare using stearic /versus cetyl alcohol.



Carolyn, I keep reading suggestions to try 50% stearic and 50% cetyl alcohol. Just an idea. If I didn't hate working with stearic I'd test it for you


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 13, 2016)

I've used stearic and cetyl (but only one or the other, not a blend of both). 

All other things being equal, to me stearic feels more waxy and dense. Think room temperature cream cheese that has been stirred a bit so it's spreadable. 

Cetyl is less dense and somewhat more fluffy. Think a whipped cream texture, but not quite as light as real whipped cream -- if you know the consistency of Cool Whip topping, cetyl is more like that. 

I tend to pair cetyl with conditioning emulsifier (similar to BTMS) if I'm going for a slightly lighter, drier feeling lotion. I pair stearic with e-wax when I want a slightly heavier, denser lotion. 

I'm talking slight shades of gray here ... not huge black and white differences. Because the differences are slight, I'm not sure I'd use a blend of both thickeners. But that's just me -- YMMV.


----------



## PrairieLights (Feb 15, 2016)

Oooo! Such excellent information for me. So appreciated! I bet cetyl is the fluffy she is going for. Pair with....?. Hey, what is the difference between polawax and e wax, and is e wax short for emulsifying wax? I think I might start with Carolyn's recipe when I get the chance. Not heard back from sis. :-( I hate being so far from her - but that is a different topic.
And DeeAnna, I was more fascinated by the thought that they used potassium hydroxide. It, unfortunately or fortunately, does not freak me out. I'd take a picture of the back of my hands to prove it, but then I'd start getting lectured...  ;-)


----------



## dixiedragon (Feb 15, 2016)

I really like meadowfoam in lotions. I have seen arrow root starch mentioned in body butter recipes to reduce the greasy feeling, can that be used in lotion? 

Unfortunately, eliminating tree nuts eliminates a lot of your nicer oils. I love love love avocado in body care products. Maybe emu if you aren't going vegetarian? Apricot kernel is also very very nice.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 15, 2016)

E-wax (emulsifying wax) comes in slightly different formulations, but they're all reasonably similar. You can think of e-wax as the generic cousin to Polawax, a brand name emulsifier. 

Susan at Swift Crafty Monkey prefers Polawax because she thinks it is more consistent and reliable. I have had good results using e-wax from two different suppliers, so I don't have a lot of incentive to try Polawax, especially since it's harder to find than e-wax.

My picks for base oils to make a less-greasy-feeling lotion are Dixie's meadowfoam, coconut oil, and jojoba. All have a long shelf life, especially m-foam and jojoba. Of the three, meadowfoam is really light and non-sticky -- I use it in a insect repellent mixture because it doesn't leave me feeling like a sticky, sweaty grease bomb.


----------



## Arimara (Feb 16, 2016)

DeeAnna said:


> I've used stearic and cetyl (but only one or the other, not a blend of both).
> 
> All other things being equal, to me stearic feels more waxy and dense. Think room temperature cream cheese that has been stirred a bit so it's spreadable.
> 
> ...



I wonder how cetyl and ewax would work. I have stearic and I haven't liked any of the lotions I've made.



dixiedragon said:


> I really like meadowfoam in lotions. I have seen arrow root starch mentioned in body butter recipes to reduce the greasy feeling, can that be used in lotion?
> 
> Unfortunately, eliminating tree nuts eliminates a lot of your nicer oils. I love love love avocado in body care products. Maybe emu if you aren't going vegetarian? Apricot kernel is also very very nice.



I wish I didn't have to eliminate the tree nuts but my daughter's allergic. I can get away with shea and coconut for her, which is great for us. I did order some meadowfoam along with two types of peppermint oil recently. I can't wait to try it.


----------



## DeeAnna (Feb 16, 2016)

I have used e-wax + cetyl. The texture is going to be a little lighter and fluffier feeling than e-wax + stearic. Again, it's not going to be a huge difference, but if you've got the e-wax to use up, I'd sure try pair it with cetyl and see if you like that combo better.


----------



## Dahila (Feb 16, 2016)

Had I post here, or not.  I make a hand cream so dry that I put it on and type on.   The emulsifier is Emulsimulse and cetyl.   It is dry even I use Calendula infused OO It is a bit tricky emulsifier to work with but I found my way) I recommend it to everyone who need to have fast absorbing and dry lotion


----------



## PrairieLights (Mar 9, 2016)

I made sis' lotion. She likes olive oil (in spite of wanting something less oily), so I used your advice and used fco and meadowfoam along with the olive. SCM's "1st timers" recipe. It was kind of funny how nervous I was about making this. I have not been nervous about making anything else. Heck, I am totally cool with lye! (My DIL leaves the room when I get to the lye part of soapmaking. I am all "La la la... ouch.... la la la.... ouch... isn't this cool, Candace?... ouch.... she is all "NO! And why aren't you wearing your gloves, mom?!".... ouch...because I am almost done now... ouch...) 
But lotion... STRESS! (I think the 'hold for 20 minutes' part was what got me.)
Anywho - it all worked out and I actually cannot wait to make more! The lotion will go out to the sis this week. We will see what she thinks. My thoughts? I think it is still greasy. I think it's the aloe I love, which she cannot use. So - if she also thinks it is still too oily, I will be back, asking for more advice. She is a hard-to-please person, so I am full throttle on this challenge! Yes :twisted: I will find her the perfect combination!!! (ok, with the help of y'all) 
P.S. One more addiction. Great.


----------



## DeeAnna (Mar 9, 2016)

Prairie -- I stressed out so much with my first lotion too -- your story about being so nervous made me smile in sympathy. 

You might want to tell your sis that hand crafted lotion can have a different feeling when first applied than store bought. My lotion often feels greasier to me, even the light absorbent recipes. If I give it a minute or two to dry down and soak in, then the grease-ball feeling goes away.


----------



## PrairieLights (Mar 17, 2016)

Thank you so much for all of your help, DeeAnna! And everyone! She tried it this morning and emailed me. I think I mentioned that she was hard to please (in the worst sense). Here is what she said:
"Used Coconut Orange Cardomom this morning.  YUM  Not greasy at all!  My skin just sucked it up, now my arms are like a hairy baby’s butt!  "
(she is hairy. good thing she is a towhead.)
I sent her 4 fragrances in 4-ounce bottles for her to try. I am so glad that she is happy, no skin reaction, works like she wanted. Happy Birthday to her. I am so grateful for the support here on this forum. Thank you all. Whomever developed this site - kuddos and thanks!
-L


----------



## marlajune (Mar 21, 2016)

Arimara said:


> I wonder how cetyl and ewax would work. I have stearic and I haven't liked any of the lotions I've made.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish I didn't have to eliminate the tree nuts but my daughter's allergic. I can get away with shea and coconut for her, which is great for us. I did order some meadowfoam along with two types of peppermint oil recently. I can't wait to try it.



Can you use seeds? Sesame seed oil is light and easily absorbed. Rice bran is another thought. I use them in my lighter lotions.


----------



## Arimara (Mar 22, 2016)

marlajune said:


> Can you use seeds? Sesame seed oil is light and easily absorbed. Rice bran is another thought. I use them in my lighter lotions.



Seeds are safe. Thankfully, she loves to eat them too. :mrgreen: Rice bran in lotion, I've never tried but I like it in soaps so I may try some sometime.


----------



## Seawolfe (Mar 22, 2016)

Thanks to the enablers in this thread, I was browsing kokum butter, and noticed it was on Amazon prime, and realized I had exactly enough rewards to order some....


----------

