# Technical problems - Selling/Buying



## Ant (Oct 15, 2020)

Was curious about what you experienced soap makers think about this subject. Not sure if it's been discussed before or not, I imagine so though. What do you think of selling soap that isn't "perfect"? Does it make you question someone's skill level?

Just moved to WV and was checking out some of the antique/craft fair stores around town. Found an unattended soap stall that was selling a ton of bath and body products. Anyways, as I was browsing her soaps I saw a lot of aesthetic common soap making issues. Like glycerin rivers, soap cracks, bubbles and stearic spots, textural looking problems. Pretty common stuff. Checked out the ingredients on the back and it was the 4 basic soap oils (olive, coconut, palm, castor). I bought at a bar and performed like soap queens 30/30/30/10. Smelled awesome with a strawberry fo but colorants were heavy and my lather and white washcloth are pink lol been there, done that. 

I'm overly hard on myself most of the time so I wouldn't personally sell soaps that I didn't deem perfect, at least not at full price. I'm not selling soaps, wouldn't until I had a ton of batches under my belt and worked out those kinks. 

Would you question someone's product with a lot of technical problems like that? I know soap making doesn't always turn out like it should and those are little things but it makes me curious. I know someone who doesn't make soap would have no clue but as someone who does would you still buy?

I really have fun buying other peoples soap and like to support other soapmakers even though I have a ton of soap myself lol


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## AliOop (Oct 15, 2020)

I’m probably with you for the most part, @Ant. Soaps don’t have to be perfect for me to buy them, but I want to see some attention to detail: fairly uniform cuts, not a lot of air bubble holes, neat labels, and minimal stearic spots. I am also turned off by colorant-heavy soaps that may look pretty but will undoubtedly stain my washcloths.

Those kinds of issues make me feel like the soaper is inexperienced, which in turn makes me feel like the soap is probably not as nice as my own. Not that mine’s the best by far, but my inclination is only to spend on something that I believe will be as nice or nicer than mine. And not to sound mean, but I don’t want to support someone who, to my eye, probably shouldn’t be selling yet.


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## Obsidian (Oct 15, 2020)

I have no issues buying imperfect looking soap as long as the ingredients are to my liking and the soaper can answer basic questions.

The only cosmetic issues I stay away from is excess botanicals or scrubby bits. All those flower bits are not going to make your soap nicer or better for you.

I've seen beautiful soap but the maker couldn't tell me if it was CP or HP since she didn't know the difference in processes.
She also didn't know all the ingredients or scents, nothing was marked.

Or the bright purple fake scented ones being sold as all natural. Its things like that I notice as a soap maker.

Before I made my own, I only cared if it smelled good.


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## jcandleattic (Oct 15, 2020)

Ant said:


> What do you think of selling soap that isn't "perfect"? Does it make you question someone's skill level?


No, IMO it adds to the "homemade" aesthetic.



Ant said:


> Would you question someone's product with a lot of technical problems like that?


No,  mine have all those aesthetic "problems" (which are not problems at all) and I don't sell them at a discounted rate. They are fine, and only YOU are going to even know or care that they are what you would consider "problems"


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## Misschief (Oct 15, 2020)

Ant said:


> Anyways, as I was browsing her soaps I saw a lot of aesthetic common soap making issues. Like glycerin rivers, soap cracks, bubbles and stearic spots, textural looking problems.



I don't want to sound accusing but what makes you think that glycerin rivers is an "issue"? I have at least one soap I make where I encourage glycerin rivers as part of the aesthetic. I love the look of them in that particular soap and am disappointed when I don't get them. 

Soap cracks just indicates that the soap got pretty hot; there's nothing wrong with the soap at all and I would have no issues selling it for full price. That said, if it was a deep crack rather than just a small surface crack, I would reconsider. Most of the "issues" you mentioned wouldn't necessarily stop me from selling at full price. It certainly doesn't indicate to me that the soapmaker is less knowledgaeble about her craft.

Apart from that, if I have soaps that are less than what I expected, I will sell them at a reduced price (I usually have a sale basket) or rebatch them somehow. For instance, my latest batch of OMH overheated; it cracked and the center of the soap is softer than the outer edges. The bars at the ends of the batch are fine but the center bars will not be sold, even in the sale basket. They will be rebatched, probably turned into confetti soap but definitely not sold as is.


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## jcandleattic (Oct 15, 2020)

The only time I sell at a discount is if the soap has been taken to the markets for a full season and didn't sell, then the next season, those soaps go in the sale bin. Otherwise, even if it's not what *I* wanted or was going for - I'm the only one that is going to know that - and maybe someone else will think that is exactly what they were looking for. Actually happens all the time.


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## Megan (Oct 15, 2020)

I only sell soap that I would buy myself...but I have gotten a bit more relaxed in that department. For instance, minor issues like glycerin rivers or a speck of undissolved mica, or even a rogue air bubble doesn't bother me like it used to. 

I will not sell soaps that bleed color excessively, so the pink washcloth would probably be a no go for me. In fact, I made a beautiful mahogany bar, that I colored in honor of it's namesake...apparently I put in too much red oxide and tossed the whole thing because it bled (like literally lol) even too much for personal use.  About the only time I let this slide is charcoal soap.


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## GemstonePony (Oct 15, 2020)

Glycerin rivers can be an aesthetic choice, and people sometimes try to get them on purpose to enhance their designs. 
Stearic spots, cracking, and air bubbles add to the "rustic" aesthetic, but I literally started making soap because I wanted more naturally-based soap that fit with the "modern" aesthetic. 
If I like the ingredients and don't have major concerns regarding their maker, I might buy a bar out of curiosity anyways, but I'm more likely to buy more bars if I like the aesthetic as well.


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## Ant (Oct 15, 2020)

AliOop said:


> I’m probably with you for the most part, @Ant. Soaps don’t have to be perfect for me to buy them, but I want to see some attention to detail: fairly uniform cuts, not a lot of air bubble holes, neat labels, and minimal stearic spots. I am also turned off by colorant-heavy soaps that may look pretty but will undoubtedly stain my washcloths.
> 
> Those kinds of issues make me feel like the soaper is inexperienced, which in turn makes me feel like the soap is probably not as nice as my own. Not that mine’s the best by far, but my inclination is only to spend on something that I believe will be as nice or nicer than mine. And not to sound mean, but I don’t want to support someone who, to my eye, probably shouldn’t be selling yet.



That's where I'm at I suppose. Nit picking aside, most things are just looks but it makes me consider experience level when it comes to being too colorant heavy. I still have all those problems myself as I'm still a newbie  and some batches just go wrong for experienced.



Obsidian said:


> The only cosmetic issues I stay away from is excess botanicals or scrubby bits. All those flower bits are not going to make your soap nicer or better for you.



I didn't even consider that when selecting soaps but I can see how thats something to avoid. The scrubby bits can cause some pain. I made some soap that had too much pumice. Great for hands but I dubbed it my no skin soap lol



Obsidian said:


> I've seen beautiful soap but the maker couldn't tell me if it was CP or HP since she didn't know the difference in processes.
> She also didn't know all the ingredients or scents, nothing was marked.



This seems like a red flag to me. Makes me question if she's reselling them instead of making.

@Obsidian I do like how you like to focus on the ingredients. I think those four oils do make good soap but makes me thinks its the basic "newbie" soap recipe that bubbles good but isn't best for my skin. Too much coconut oil dries me out badly.



jcandleattic said:


> No, mine have all those aesthetic "problems" (which are not problems at all) and I don't sell them at a discounted rate. They are fine, and only YOU are going to even know or care that they are what you would consider "problems"



This I need to hear. As one of those ones striving for that "perfect" soap when it comes to making my own, I'm quick to dismiss them. Still perfectly usable and nice performing soap but focus on those air bubbles lol



Misschief said:


> I don't want to sound accusing but what makes you think that glycerin rivers is an "issue"? I have at least one soap I make where I encourage glycerin rivers as part of the aesthetic. I love the look of them in that particular soap and am disappointed when I don't get them.



I don't think it's necessarily an issue but could point to an inexperienced soaper as in maybe they haven't spent enough time making their recipe, testing fo, or colorant amounts.

I think they can look awesome with some designs like that marble look or with some color combinations. And I think it speaks to your experience level purposely trying to get them because you know what you need to do to try and achieve it.

I'm not in that sellers head so could be intentional but some of the rivers were on designs that I thought didn't compliment the overall look but thats just my personal opinion.



Misschief said:


> Most of the "issues" you mentioned wouldn't necessarily stop me from selling at full price. It certainly doesn't indicate to me that the soapmaker is less knowledgaeble about her craft.



For you, what are some things that would make you question someones experience level?



jcandleattic said:


> The only time I sell at a discount is if the soap has been taken to the markets for a full season and didn't sell, then the next season, those soaps go in the sale bin. Otherwise, even if it's not what *I* wanted or was going for - I'm the only one that is going to know that - and maybe someone else will think that is exactly what they were looking for. Actually happens all the time.



Everyone has their preferences for sure. From a business standpoint, I can see it doesn't make sense not to sell the imperfect soaps because thats just wasted money on perfectly good soap.



Peachy Clean Soap said:


> I too find the not so desired flaws in soap mentioned above as no big issue or problem, more often then not my soap has them, however having said that I'm my worst critic striving for that "Perfect Bar" I've had soap that I felt it wassnt worthy of rebatch IMHO, but got fabulous feedback requesting more soap just like it.  My main concern in soap is how it performs rather then aesthetics.



I relate to you when you say you are your own worse critic when it comes to making soap lol I've given away what I deemed as not perfect and they loved them.



Megan said:


> I will not sell soaps that bleed color excessively, so the pink washcloth would probably be a no go for me. In fact, I made a beautiful mahogany bar, that I colored in honor of it's namesake...apparently I put in too much red oxide and tossed the whole thing because it bled (like literally lol) even too much for personal use. About the only time I let this slide is charcoal soap.



That mahogany bar would be perfect for Halloween if it makes your tub have red streaks. Some Dexter level blood splatter analyst soap.

Heavy colorants happen, I made a blue layer one a few months ago. The lather was this sickly gray  oops.



GemstonePony said:


> Stearic spots, cracking, and air bubbles add to the "rustic" aesthetic, but I literally started making soap because I wanted more naturally-based soap that fit with the "modern" aesthetic.



Oooooh, now this viewpoint I didn't even consider at all. Depending on the marketing and style those definitely add to the charm of a rustic soap. Non beveled edges and a crinkle cut or straight cut. Thanks for chiming in, really good point I didn't think of.

Definitely lots of love to soap makers, especially the sellers because that takes some time and dedication. Lots of respect for you guys who do it for a living.


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## lenarenee (Oct 15, 2020)

I bought soap from 3 different YT makers recently, and it was the premium, famous maker, $12 dollar excessively colored, uncured bar that made me toss it carelessly in the drawer and forget about it. 

I love a good  popped air bubble - one that's hollowed out and you know it's an air bubble. Tells me it's homemade.  Excessive bumpy wire cut bubble are quickly washed away and I don't find them a sign of inexperience. I never burp my sb or bank my soaps.  I find that sb's make differing amounts of air bubbles and don't blame a maker for that.

A local maker sells at a weekly market using all sorts of butters, occasional premium oil, no colorants except occasional clay, turmeric, cocoa, all essential oil type soaps, She's not into the "prissy" all natural, superiority mindset. They're somewhat rustic, which is often not my cup of tea. There are stearic spots...but I would except that with her recipes. Maybe she needs to soap hotter - but with delicate essential oils - can't.   But I love the look of her soaps. They seem like the most "honest" soaps I've ever seen, and I have no doubts as to their quality. I hope to imitate a couple of them - complete with stearic spots.  (When I met her at the market - I was shocked at the price she was charging for her huge bars - and tried to convince her to raise her prices a lot! And I spoke loudly enough that all her other customers could hear me, and my reasons. And she actually did later raise her prices!   https://www.gardenlathersoaps.com

However - it's not a look I want for the majority of my soap.  

All that being said - You get to choose how you soap and what your standards should be!  That's what creates your style!


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## AliOop (Oct 15, 2020)

I should clarify that I don't expect perfect soaps from other soapers, nor from myself. And none of the issues I mentioned, in isolation, would cause me not to buy someone's soaps.

But a cumulation of several issues - such as incorrect labeling, medical claims, sloppy-looking bars, too much colorant or scent, big partial gel rings, etc. - is very off-putting to me. It doesn't mean their soap is "bad" per se, but it does turn me off from buying it.

ETA: good example: the link to Garden Lather soaps that @lenarenee provided, shows that this soaper believes it is ok to label her soaps as "moisturizing" and to make claims like: "Patchouli essential oil helps reduce depression and skin inflammation. Lemongrass essential oil is known for its antiseptic and astringent properties, perfect for getting an even skin tone and a glowing complexion."

Here's another quote from another one of her soaps: "Dead Sea Salt & Mineral Soap Great soap to help with ECZEMA and PSORIASIS. Dead Sea Salt has a unique concentration of more than 21 minerals including magnesium, potassium, and calcium that help to strengthen skin tissue, improve blood circulation, eliminate toxins and balance the skin's natural pH levels. *Dead Sea salt can also help treat ECZEMA and PSORIASIS* by exfoliating dead skin cells, rehydrating the skin and restoring depleted minerals. Ingredients: Saponified organic coconut oil, organic sunflower oil, Dead Sea salt, organic cocoa butter, organic shea butter, apricot kernal oil, organic babassu oil, castor oil, avocado oil, aloe vera, menthol, clay, pure lavender essential oil."

Her soap may indeed be wonderful, but I don't want to support someone who blatantly disregards the labeling laws, which hurts all soapers, esp the ones who do follow the law.


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## jcandleattic (Oct 15, 2020)

lenarenee said:


> I bought soap from 3 different YT makers recently, and it was the premium, famous maker, $12 dollar excessively colored, uncured bar that made me toss it carelessly in the drawer and forget about it.


If it is who I think it is, I wouldn't buy it, simply because I tried the so called "famous" recipe and HATED it. Also, I personally would never pay that for a handmade bar of soap - knowing what even using the most luxurious oils, and what a bar of soap like that can cost to make (which those ingredients bought in bulk wouldn't IMO be considered 'luxurious') - however, I also would never knock someone for selling at that price. If they can get that much for their product, good for them. I wouldn't be able to in my market, nor would I even try.


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## Misschief (Oct 15, 2020)

Ant said:


> For you, what are some things that would make you question someones experience level?


As others have already mentioned, I would be more concerned with a soaper who can't answer basic questions about their soaps. I would want to know how long the soap has cured; is their labeling correct? How long have they been making soap? What do the oils they use bring to the table? Things like that; I'm less concerned with the appearance of the actual soap. 

Heck, I had one soap I was completely unhappy with; it accelerated like crazy. It had bubbles and the intended swirls were glops of colour. It was one of my fastest selling soaps. People loved the colours, they loved the fragrance.  They didn't see the "flaws" that I saw. The soap was/is good soap but it certainly didn't come out the way I had intended. Even after 5+ years, things still happen. One thing to keep in mind is that our customers don't know what we have in mind when we make our soaps. Rookie mistakes are one thing, soap being soap (and sometimes not doing what you expect it to) is something completely different. 

Keep in mind, too, that a lot of the "famous" soap makers don't usually show us their less than perfect soaps. I refuse to believe that some of the people we look up to as soap makers have 100% perfect batches. We just don't get to see those batches.

I also think that some soap makers (I'm thinking of one in particular who sells occasionally at the same market as me) stick with one recipe and one recipe only. The soap maker I'm referring to uses one recipe for all their soaps, the same "style" for all their soaps with only colours and fragrances changing. I have soaps that are great for general washing but I also have soaps that are better for facial care, or are less stripping (i.e. less coconut, maybe with lard, etc.).


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## lenarenee (Oct 15, 2020)

AliOop said:


> I should clarify that I don't expect perfect soaps from other soapers, nor from myself. And none of the issues I mentioned, in isolation, would cause me not to buy someone's soaps.
> 
> But a cumulation of several issues - such as incorrect labeling, medical claims, sloppy-looking bars, too much colorant or scent, big partial gel rings, etc. - is very off-putting to me. It doesn't mean their soap is "bad" per se, but it does turn me off from buying it.
> 
> ...



Just to clarify:  she doesn't believe all that - her husband does, or at least tried to jump onto the eo bandwagon. When she's at the market - she sells naked bars or simply labeled bars. Her dedicated customers are mostly men - which I find interesting. I LOVE her soaps EXCEPT for the high coconut oil in them. I always meant to try to copy one with 20% coconut...but never have. Plus, I'm not going to use premium oils I soap


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## melinda48 (Oct 16, 2020)

Misschief said:


> I don't want to sound accusing but what makes you think that glycerin rivers is an "issue"? I have at least one soap I make where I encourage glycerin rivers as part of the aesthetic. I love the look of them in that particular soap and am disappointed when I don't get them.
> 
> Soap cracks just indicates that the soap got pretty hot; there's nothing wrong with the soap at all and I would have no issues selling it for full price. That said, if it was a deep crack rather than just a small surface crack, I would reconsider. Most of the "issues" you mentioned wouldn't necessarily stop me from selling at full price. It certainly doesn't indicate to me that the soapmaker is less knowledgaeble about her craft.
> 
> Apart from that, if I have soaps that are less than what I expected, I will sell them at a reduced price (I usually have a sale basket) or rebatch them somehow. For instance, my latest batch of OMH overheated; it cracked and the center of the soap is softer than the outer edges. The bars at the ends of the batch are fine but the center bars will not be sold, even in the sale basket. They will be rebatched, probably turned into confetti soap but definitely not sold as is.


I am glad you mentioned glycerin rivers as some of my customers actually prefer soaps with them. I’m with you on the crack “issue” as well; small cracks do not, in my opinion, damage the appearance. My soaps do not need to look like factory-made products; they are not. I do not sell soaps with more severe “disfigurements” at a sale price as well.


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## TheGecko (Oct 16, 2020)

Ant said:


> Would you question someone's product with a lot of technical problems like that? I know soap making doesn't always turn out like it should and those are little things but it makes me curious. I know someone who doesn't make soap would have no clue but as someone who does would you still buy?



As a soap maker, I am actually more tolerant of imperfections in soap making that I was before...especially with the price of artisan soap versus commercial soap. Seriously, I can get Jergens Mild Soap, Pack of 2-3/3oz bars for $6.86 at Wal-Mart and you want $7.00 for a 4.5oz bar that has "issues"?!?  As a soap maker, I know that those white spots are steric spots and are harmless.  That the crack came from the soap overheating during the saponification process, the soap is elsewise fine.  Same with soap bubbles and drag marks.  The simple fact is...soap does what it wants to do.  Most of the time, it's what you want to do too, but sometimes, no matter how long you have been making soap...it goes a bit sideways.  

What "I" want to know...what are the ingredients, how long has the soap been curing and how long the soap maker has been making soap.


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## mishmish (Oct 19, 2020)

I will recycle not quite aesthetically perfect soap as soap balls or if the color is really unfortunate (I've had more than my share of spam colored rose soap for some reason) as felted soap. Or slice them up small for inclusion in sample bundles. I'm always sorry when a favorite soap gets glycerin rivers but I've stopped worrying about it because many customers think it's cool.


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## amd (Oct 21, 2020)

Ant said:


> Anyways, as I was browsing her soaps I saw a lot of aesthetic common soap making issues. Like glycerin rivers, soap cracks, bubbles and stearic spots, textural looking problems.


I don't consider any of these to be any deterrents to selling (I do). I like glycerin rivers and I get excited when I see them in other makers soaps and have been known to buy a soap I don't like the fragrance of just because it had glycerin rivers. The only question I have ever had to field from a customer regarding the appearance of my soaps was a soap that had ash on it, the customer was concerned it was mold. I was able to do a quick explanation and showed her how easily it wiped off and wouldn't harm her.



Ant said:


> Would you question someone's product with a lot of technical problems like that?


No, I would however question the maker if they couldn't explain why it had the issues, or assure me that it wouldn't harm me (see above ash situation).



Ant said:


> I know someone who doesn't make soap would have no clue but as someone who does would you still buy?


Typically these things don't determine if I buy (except glycerine rivers, they give me the feels), a soapmaker who doesn't know their craft will prevent me from buying. I have run into soapmakers who don't know terminology, or claim their soaps are scented with essential oils (umm... there is no such as thing as strawberry essential oil...). 



Misschief said:


> Most of the "issues" you mentioned wouldn't necessarily stop me from selling at full price. It certainly doesn't indicate to me that the soapmaker is less knowledgaeble about her craft.


This. Exactly. I also follow jcandleattic's method of rotating stock, I sell at full price for a year, if I can't sell 18 bars (batch size) in a year then it goes into my clearance bin. Anything still in the clearance bin after 6 months gets donated to women's shelters, or goes into my personal stash.


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## CatahoulaBubble (Oct 24, 2020)

I try to put my best soaps forward but on my soapy failures as long as it's safe soap I will sell it. I always take a basket of discounted soap that usually means it has corners broken from transport or some other cosmetic defect to it. A gouge, a scrape that I can't simply buff out. But even my ugly soaps that I make and think, "ugh that's so ugly it will never sell" somehow manages to be a favorite. I have one that I made and it's a great soap but the scent to me was horrid. It was just so putrid to me but I ended up taking it with me to work and people bought every single bar. So really unless the soap is really banged up I will put it up for sale as long as it's fully cured and a good recipe.  I also will use my ugly soaps as "free gift with purchase of $xx" and I let my customers choose an ugly soap.


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