# I was Infuriated today



## cmzaha (Dec 1, 2019)

at what I saw a vendor selling, and I pray no one purchased it. This was the additional soap seller the market manager brought in yesterday. Anyway, she had a lotion labeled Magnesium lotion which of course was listed as curing all sorts of ailments. That was not the maddening issue, today I decided to be really nosey and picked up a jar and looked over the label which was tacky at best. Magnesium was first followed by water, arnica, shea butter and a few other ingredients not a hint of preservative. Of course big mouth me asked why no preservative and was told she just forgot to add it to the list. Yeah, right. It was already bubbling in some of the bottles. My experience with trying to preserve infused arnica is impossible. I tried for almost a year to preserve an infused arnica lotion and everyone failed even with Phenonip. It is these types of sellers that are hurting us.


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## Millie (Dec 1, 2019)

Yuck. I can see your point. Nothing like receiving a lovely jar of handmade mold


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 1, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> It was already bubbling in some of the bottles.


YIKES!


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## shunt2011 (Dec 2, 2019)

That's just plain nasty.   People just don't care nor do they think about the danger they can be inflicting on people.


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## Cellador (Dec 2, 2019)




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## MarnieSoapien (Dec 2, 2019)

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about lotion making, but the idea of magnesium as the first indigent would make me very wary to purchase said lotion.


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## dndlyon (Dec 2, 2019)

I'm so sorry this happened. I see it all the time locally and like to think that the bad business practices some people use will allow them to put themselves right out of business. We have a lot of CBD lotion makers around here. Regardless of your opinion on CBD as an ingredient, I think we can agree that medical claims shouldn't be made on the label and lotions should have preservatives.

It's frustrating, but it only takes 1 moldy purchase before word on the street becomes "don't buy products from the Vendor In Question". The snake oil medical claims are super scary, though. Hopefully they are only selling mold, not providing a new medical condition.


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## cmzaha (Dec 2, 2019)

Sadly, in my experience, once it starts bubbling many times it is more than the mold that can be seen. 

There is quite a lot of CBD sold here in all forms I just do not fool with it. There was a time I made salves for a clinic with shake they supplied me in which I cooked into a butter then used it for a salve. The stuff was strong and folks loved it, but I no longer mess with it. When the feds started shutting down clinics here I quit making it. I did not make a lotion with it since I was not about to send it out for testing.


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## Arimara (Dec 2, 2019)

MarnieSoapien said:


> I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about lotion making, but the idea of magnesium as the first indigent would make me very wary to purchase said lotion.



You should try it sometime, if you feel upto it. The most important ingredient to as to any lotion is a preservative (EOs most certainly do not count). There are preservatives out there that do no have parabens but even in my experience (which is little) the tried and true is the safest bet to stick to. You would want a good, broad spectrum preservative to keep your lotion as safe as possible.


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## zanzalawi (Dec 2, 2019)

its fair to choke her out on the last day of the show, right? RIGHT?!?!


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## dndlyon (Dec 2, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> Sadly, in my experience, once it starts bubbling many times it is more than the mold that can be seen.
> 
> There is quite a lot of CBD sold here in all forms I just do not fool with it. There was a time I made salves for a clinic with shake they supplied me in which I cooked into a butter then used it for a salve. The stuff was strong and folks loved it, but I no longer mess with it. When the feds started shutting down clinics here I quit making it. I did not make a lotion with it since I was not about to send it out for testing.



As a microbiologist I'll tell you - if it's bubbling, it has yeast and/or bacteria in it. Mold just makes it look yucky (and mold is almost always harmless). In fact most of the stuff that bubbles will only cause a skin irritation...but still...yuck! I mean...label it as a probiotic? I'm kidding...just trying to make light of the awfulness that is, by definition, adulterated product. It truly is a shame that the people that do this the right way have to share space with people who don't educate themselve (or don't care enough) to do it the right way.

Besides, I'm always good with some nerdy and mostly useless info 

I used to design the challenge testing for Big Corporate food products. I know how much those studies cost! I'd like to make lotions, but even with the ability to design my own challenge studies, it's cost prohibitive. I know people who just use a broad spectrum preservative and have no issues. However, I just can't do that. I need the data - did I mention that I'm a nerd?

I won't touch CBD either right now. I get asked for it a lot, but until the regs are stable, I'm out. There's also just so much misinformation locally from those who sell CBD products.

@zanzalawi - you may be on to something. I'd watch a reality tv show where crafters fight it out over adulterated products and really poor labeling decisions...but maybe I'm the only one


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## zanzalawi (Dec 2, 2019)

dndlyon said:


> As a microbiologist I'll tell you - if it's bubbling, it has yeast and/or bacteria in it. Mold just makes it look yucky (and mold is almost always harmless). In fact most of the stuff that bubbles will only cause a skin irritation...but still...yuck! I mean...label it as a probiotic? I'm kidding...just trying to make light of the awfulness that is, by definition, adulterated product. It truly is a shame that the people that do this the right way have to share space with people who don't educate themselve (or don't care enough) to do it the right way.



probiotics BWAHAHAHA!  
so soooo gross


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## cmzaha (Dec 2, 2019)

dndlyon said:


> As a microbiologist I'll tell you - if it's bubbling, it has yeast and/or bacteria in it. Mold just makes it look yucky (and mold is almost always harmless). In fact most of the stuff that bubbles will only cause a skin irritation...but still...yuck! I mean...label it as a probiotic? I'm kidding...just trying to make light of the awfulness that is, by definition, adulterated product.
> 
> I won't touch CBD either right now. I get asked for it a lot, but until the regs are stable, I'm out. There's also just so much misinformation locally from those who sell CBD products.


 I already thought of the probiotic aspect!! I also agree that I will not go the CBD route now the way regs are. That is why I had to back off the other product I was making for the clinic. There were being hit too hard from the feds. People will still ask me for it and I refuse, plus I never sold it directly.


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## cerelife (Dec 3, 2019)

I infuse my own arnica oil but I would never sell it, nor do I use it in any of the products that I DO sell. From the information that I've gleaned from the doctors whom I work with and my own research, to have a high enough concentration of arnica to make it effective, there are contraindications that I'm not comfortable that consumers will abide by such as not applying to broken skin/not using for an extended time. We use it neat in a roller ball applicator and I also make an arnica salve with beeswax, babassu, and black pepper EO for personal use but these items will NEVER be for sale! 
And yep, I can just imagine that arnica infused oil would be a nightmare to preserve in lotions!!
This vendor is just begging for a lawsuit.


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## Lin19687 (Dec 4, 2019)

And it isn't just Lotions, same goes with soaps, salves etc.  Kills  the business for ALL.
And new people here wonder why we tell them to read and work at things for a LONG time before they start to sell 

I agree with CB D , hear great things .  I bought a ' bud ' that was super Low TH C and HIGH CB D to try it out for me.  This was not the refined powder if the CB D just the plant bud.  Skunk smell is awful but with enough Stronger EO's it is tolerable.  Again this was just for me.  I don't think it really works well.  Could be my method and not using just the powder concentrated type, but no,, not for me.


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## dndlyon (Dec 4, 2019)

Lin19687 said:


> And it isn't just Lotions, same goes with soaps, salves etc.  Kills  the business for ALL.
> And new people here wonder why we tell them to read and work at things for a LONG time before they start to sell



I had another business for years before I started the soap business. It was a HUGE benefit to me because I already knew how to do the business piece. I also worked for Corporate regulatory for years and was involved in making some changes to the food code in the US. I can't even imagine how huge the learning curve would be if I didn't have that experience going into starting up the skin care business.

@cmzaha - thanks for starting this thread. These conversations always make me feel better about all the "behind the scenes" work that I do to make sure I'm doing things the way they are supposed to be done. Although I am sorry that you had such a frustrating experience - always hard to see people selling crappy stuff because they didn't do their homework (or just don't care enough).


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## Lin19687 (Dec 5, 2019)

dndlyon said:


> I had another business for years before I started the soap business. It was a HUGE benefit to me because I already knew how to do the business piece. I also worked for Corporate regulatory for years and was involved in making some changes to the food code in the US. I can't even imagine how huge the learning curve would be if I didn't have that experience going into starting up the skin care business..



My point was not about starting a Business.  It was people making an item that is not correctly made


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## Martha (Dec 5, 2019)

Do you think you could approach the organizers of the show with your concerns about the bubbling nightmare lotion? I would imagine that they would be horrified and want to avoid a bad experience associated with their event. That is more than just not wanting competition, that’s just alerting them to someone putting their customers at risk.


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