# LS Separation & PS 80



## KristaY (Jul 26, 2014)

I have problems with certain scents separating in my liquid soap. Some are FO's and some are EO's. My recipe is Catherine Failor's "Rich and Creamy Shower Gel" which contains 56% OO, 36% CO and 8% PO. It's the lye heavy method so uses 12 oz KOH and 36 oz H2O, then neutralized using a 33% borax solution. This recipe will only dilute for me at 20-25%. These were made about 2 months ago. So my question is, will polysorbate 80 help with the separation at this point? I read IrishLass's wonderful and informative post describing the glycerin method, and she mixes the PS 80 with her scent, then adds that to the soap. I don't want to waste the PS 80 and cost if it won't do any good now. Thanks everyone!


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## KristaY (Jul 27, 2014)

Ideas? Anyone?


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## Meganmischke (Jul 27, 2014)

I use ps 20 with great results.  I imagine 80 would work too. I could be wrong but that looks like alot of separation to just be from fos or eos. I don't make my ls by her method but I am somewhat familiar with the process.  Is it possible you over neutalized and are left with something with a ph too low to be soap thus the separation? Does it lather? Did you add super fats with fragrance?


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## IrishLass (Jul 27, 2014)

I've used PS80 after the fact and it worked just fine with my soap made via the glycerin method.

 The portion of soap that I conducted the PS80 experiment on was a 2 oz. portion of GLS that was a year old. I had added FO to it a day or 2 after making it (without any kind of emulsifier) and just let it sit in a bottle on my shelf for observational purposes for a year. At the 6 month mark the FO had separated out from the main body of soap, but I let it sit for 6 months more before doing anything to it. Your mileage may vary as to how much PS80 to add, but for what its worth,  I ended up adding a total of 1 3/4 mL of PS80 to my little portion before it all came together into a cohesive and clear emulsion.


 HTH!
 IrishLass


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## KristaY (Jul 27, 2014)

Meganmischke said:


> I use ps 20 with great results. I imagine 80 would work too. I could be wrong but that looks like alot of separation to just be from fos or eos. I don't make my ls by her method but I am somewhat familiar with the process. Is it possible you over neutalized and are left with something with a ph too low to be soap thus the separation? Does it lather? Did you add super fats with fragrance?


 
 Borax has a pH of 9.2 so it can't be over neutralized. But in case I blinked and screwed something up, I tested it. My pH strips are broad (1-14) so I can't get an exact pH, but it shows 9. It lathers fine and I didn't add anything after neutralization except fragrance.



IrishLass said:


> I've used PS80 after the fact and it worked just fine with my soap made via the glycerin method.
> 
> The portion of soap that I conducted the PS80 experiment on was a 2 oz. portion of GLS that was a year old. I had added FO to it a day or 2 after making it (without any kind of emulsifier) and just let it sit in a bottle on my shelf for observational purposes for a year. At the 6 month mark the FO had separated out from the main body of soap, but I let it sit for 6 months more before doing anything to it. Your mileage may vary as to how much PS80 to add, but for what its worth, I ended up adding a total of 1 3/4 mL of PS80 to my little portion before it all came together into a cohesive and clear emulsion.
> 
> ...


 
 Good to know! Luckily I labeled each jar with the exact amount of scent I added so I'll start with that. Based on what I read in your previous post, I need to add at least equal amounts PS 80 to the FO/EO amount, right?

 Thanks for your replies meganmischke and IrishLass, I appreciate the advice! :-D


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## IrishLass (Jul 27, 2014)

KristaY said:


> . Based on what I read in your previous post, I need to add at least equal amounts PS 80 to the FO/EO amount, right?



 Yes- that is what I normally add- and so far (with all the different FOs I've used), it has worked well for me.

 IrishLass


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## froggybean37 (Jul 31, 2014)

Would it make a difference whether you used ps80 or ps20? i've never used either, not totally sure what the difference in final product would be but wanted to clarify as both are mentioned above


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## DeeAnna (Jul 31, 2014)

Yes, PS20 and PS80 act somewhat differently. I'm not an expert at why, but I have seen a difference between the two. At first I used PS20 for EOs in a water-alcohol solution. According to the information I've read about PS20, this kind of application is perfect for PS20. But ... even with a 4:1 ratio of PS20 to EOs, the mixture does not solubilize. I can shake it up to make a milky solution that remains fully mixed for, oh, 10-20 minutes, but eventually the mixture separates back into two layers after some hours. 

I was not happy with this result. I mean -- why bother to use the polysorbate if it is not really solubilizing? I'm a believer in "less is more" when adding ingredients like this. The stuff needs to really work well, or I don't want it in my recipe.

So I decided to substitute PS80 for the PS20 in the same recipe, just for grins. PS80 is supposed to be better for solubilizing heavier "carrier" oils, rather than EOs, according to the info I read, so I had been thinking the PS20 was the stuff to use. I was wrong. 

In this situation, I found the PS80 creates a mixture that doesn't separate.  In a 2:1 ratio of PS80 to EOs, the mixture is staying fully mixed, but slightly cloudy for the couple-three weeks I have been playing around with this. Using a 3:1 ratio, the mixture is staying mixed AND water clear. Nice!


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## IrishLass (Aug 1, 2014)

I decided to use PS80 over PS20 because of the info I read over on Susan Barclay's (aka swiftcraftymonkey's) blog: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/05/question-polysorbate-20-vs-polysorbate.html 

 Plus, as DeeAnna has found out, it kills 2 birds with one stone- i.e., not only does PS80 help to solubize carrier oils into surfactants and water-based formulas, but it also does a great job of solubizing FOs and EOs, too. I've never used PS20, but I can attest along with DeeAnna that PS80 works great with FOs/EOs in water/alcohol-based formulas. I use it to solubize all my room/linen sprays and have the same great results as DeeAnna. I was worried at first that the PS80 would clog my spray nozzles, or leave behind weird residue, but thankfully, that has not been the case.

 IrishLass


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## DeeAnna (Aug 1, 2014)

I'll stop being coy -- I've been working on a water based insect repellent, so I'm spraying this water/alcohol/PS80/EO mixture on my skin. 

The PS80 has an added benefit for skin use in that it acts as a whisper light moisturizer. It's not remotely oily ... not at all objectionable on a hot sticky summer day. Just nice. 

The PS20 has a similar moisturizing effect, but the effect is slightly more oily, IMO.

I've heard (speaking from very vague memory here) that some folks use PS80 or PS20 (don't remember which) as a light leave on hair conditioner. Haven't tried that intentionally, but I've sprayed my product with PS80 over my hair to repel gnats (they're really bad in Iowa this hear) and it adds a nice silky feel to my hair.

I think I'd choose PS80 if I had to use one. It seems to give the best results for what I've used it so far.


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## ngian (Apr 20, 2015)

IrishLass said:


> I decided to use PS80 over PS20 because of the info I read over on Susan Barclay's (aka swiftcraftymonkey's) blog: http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/05/question-polysorbate-20-vs-polysorbate.html
> 
> Plus, as DeeAnna has found out, it kills 2 birds with one stone- i.e., not only does PS80 help to solubize carrier oils into surfactants and water-based formulas, but it also does a great job of solubizing FOs and EOs, too. I've never used PS20, but I can attest along with DeeAnna that PS80 works great with FOs/EOs in water/alcohol-based formulas. I use it to solubize all my room/linen sprays and have the same great results as DeeAnna. I was worried at first that the PS80 would clog my spray nozzles, or leave behind weird residue, but thankfully, that has not been the case.
> 
> IrishLass




Hello IrishLass

I have already read about DeeAnna's CP GLS (1 part water-2 parts Glycerin) that is based on your recipe, printed out the steps, and will buy everything that is needed to create my first LS.

We are using for our kids a *great commercial LS* that it uses simple soaping ingredients, and I want to create one like it on my own.

The ingredients are:
_Organic Potassium cocoate, contains Organic Potassium olivate, Aloe  barbadensis (organic aloe) leaf juice, Kosher Vegetable glycerin,  Butyrospermun parkii (organic shea) butter, Vanilla planifolia (organic  vanilla) fruit extract, potassium citrate, Lavandula angustifolia  (organic lavender) flower oil, Calendula officinalis (organic calendula)  flower extract_

From what I understand they don't use any emulsifier in order to keep essential oils together with the water of LS. Maybe it is for the fact that this product is diluted with much water in order for the foam pump to work easily, along with the use of lavender and vanilla essential oils that there is no need for them to use an emulsifier.

I'm writing this post because I *came across this link* that is controverting the safe usage of PS80, mostly for interior usage. And when it comes to little kids products, I'm thinking twice before using a suspicious ingredient.

Do you think that PS80 is safe for a wash off skin usage?


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## Susie (Apr 20, 2015)

If you aren't having trouble with separation, then you don't have to worry about it.  I keep my EOs down to the 0.5 oz PPO rule, and the SF down to 3% or less, and just don't have this issue.  But then, I have a really short list of EOs I use, so maybe that is it.


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## LBussy (Apr 20, 2015)

I once wrote an article about a soap (which was honestly crap).  I took a bit of a tongue in cheek swipe at the guy because one of the oils the guy used had cyanide as a component.  It was easy to throw in a little ironic FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) because quite honestly so much FUD is used, that becomes part of our culture and people don't realize it.  When did we stop critically examining data and just believing it?  That this comes at a time where any moron can start a blog is not helping at all.

The link provided above is to a story, a blog, for which there is no burden of proof.  Then he/she takes studies which at best are inconclusive, about using a product in a manner completely inconsistent with "normal use," and spreads FUD without really understanding it.  The one reliable source the "author" uses is so misquoted that it defies credulity.

I mean, if I said (to non-experienced people) that a component of soap was responsible for severe chemical burns, and something that you can even use to strip the nasty gunk out of your drain - that sounds bad right?  We know that the use of lye in soap MAKES soap, and that there is nothing wrong with it as we use it.  We apply common sense to that conversation, we need to do the same here.

Are there some studies which have shows for instance that people with Crohn's disease are sensitive to PS 80?  Yes.  People so afflicted are also advised to avoid nuts, corn, applies, strawberries, tomatoes and chocolate.  Does that mean EVERYONE should boycott apples?   

The average American and European consumes about 100 mg/day of PS80.  Some of these tests which showed *some* adverse effects used levels up to 16.783ml/kgbw/day which is 7.5% of the body mass per day of PS 80.  That would be equivalent to a 160 lb person drinking more than a liter of the stuff every day.  The level below which no observed adverse effect was noted was 1% of the body mass per day or 135 ml for that 160 # person.  They also noted some weight loss in the subjects, but that may be because they filled the mice's diet with non-food items and there was no more appetite.  Can you imagine if you had to down 12 lbs of "filler" in a day?  You'd lose weight too.

That 135 ml (the low end of what caused effect) of PS 80 = 145g (145000 mg).  Compare that to the average consumption per day of 100 mg and we see that our average intake is 0.07% of the level below which which shows no adverse effects.

So .. are you going to guzzle PS80?  I hope not.  If you do then you might give birth to children who weigh slightly less.  (and even with all that they were still unable to show any toxicity to the brain).  If however you are going to use it in a room spray or a lotion, somehow I *think* you might just be safe.


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## Susie (Apr 20, 2015)

Thank you, Lee!  Common sense and reality checks are a wonderful addition to most threads, as far as I am concerned!

Since I have a family member with Crohn's, I checked sources on the link between PS80 and Crohn's.  It relates *strictly* to the ingestion of PS80, not the use in soaps and external use products.  

http://gut.bmj.com/content/59/10/1331.full


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## LBussy (Apr 20, 2015)

And I guess I forgot an important part - people SHOULD read the labels and be informed consumers.  There's just a difference between peer-reviewed findings and "facts" on blogs.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 20, 2015)

"...Do you think that PS80 is safe for a wash off skin usage? ..."

Yes. But if you don't need it, by all means do not use it. 

The OP is having serious separation problems and was wondering if PS would help this problem. It may indeed help, but looking at the pics in Post 1, I wonder again what's really going on with her soap. The separation looks more like what you'd see with a LS that is over-neutralized, but that's just me wondering in a low-caffeine fog this morning.

But to get back to your question, Nikos, PS is not strictly necessary. Like Susie, I add scent to my liquid soap and I don't use PS either. I don't see separation; if anything, adding a scent causes no change or it thickens my soap.


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## ngian (Apr 20, 2015)

Thank you all for the useful feedback. Lately I have also started checking and reading about soap ingredients on this site too. 

 www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/705142/POLYSORBATE-80/

Sorry if I hijacked this thread.


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## FGOriold (Apr 20, 2015)

ngian said:


> Thank you all for the useful feedback. Lately I have also started checking and reading about soap ingredients on this site too.
> 
> www.ewg.org/skindeep/ingredient/705142/POLYSORBATE-80/
> 
> Sorry if I hijacked this thread.




That is a site that focuses more on scaremongering than actual data and useful information. There are other, more reputable sites (and "Food Babe" is NOT one of them).


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## Susie (Apr 20, 2015)

Please, please, please run any blogs or such by us before you let people scare you off of perfectly valid ingredients or methods.  You know we will give you the straight story, or at least a balanced view of the situation.


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## Susie (Apr 20, 2015)

KristaY- if you would do me a huge favor just to rule out what I(and apparently DeeAnna) think is actually the problem, we might have an answer for you.

Please make that recipe using 2-3% superfat rather than the lye heavy recipes you were using, then use the same FOs and see if they separate.  I think you are over neutralizing with the borax mixture.  Just leave it thin and then scent it.  It does not need to be a huge batch, just 16 oz(500g) of oils.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 20, 2015)

Yes, Susie, I'm wondering about over neutralizing and/or possibly that the scent is reacting with the borax. I'm not at all sure, but the OP's pics don't show something that looks like a simple separation of scent from the soap. That should just be a thin film, not a thick white layer. 

I understand the thinking that borax can't reduce the pH below its intrinsic pH, but that's doesn't mean it can't cause molecular mischief if too much is added.


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## Susie (Apr 20, 2015)

It does look exactly like the batch I "broke" with too much borax water.  My one and only attempt to thicken with borax.  I learned to live with my thin soap after that.


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## KristaY (Apr 21, 2015)

Susie said:


> KristaY- if you would do me a huge favor just to rule out what I(and apparently DeeAnna) think is actually the problem, we might have an answer for you.
> 
> Please make that recipe using 2-3% superfat rather than the lye heavy recipes you were using, then use the same FOs and see if they separate. I think you are over neutralizing with the borax mixture. Just leave it thin and then scent it. It does not need to be a huge batch, just 16 oz(500g) of oils.


 
Susie & DeeAnna, I think you both have a great point about the borax causing some kind of molecular interference. I added PS 80 to all the of jars that are pictured in the first post and it helped to a certain extent but didn't completely bring it together or clear the cloudiness. Those are now designated to my washing sink, lol. 

Since those batches, I've made MANY using 50% glycerin/50% water (as the lye water) with 2-3% SF so no borax solution for neutralization. But I have used PS80 at equal proportions to FO/EO. All have mixed together with no problems and have stayed mixed after weeks to months.

On a side note, remember my screw up with the sodium lactate? I've been watching that one for 10 days and it's become interesting. I'll head over to that thread and post the update.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks for the update, Krista! Will wander over to your other thread and satisfy my curiosity. 

eta: It's this one? http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53567


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## KristaY (Apr 21, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Thanks for the update, Krista! Will wander over to your other thread and satisfy my curiosity.
> 
> eta: It's this one? http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53567


 
Yes, that's it! I've just added PS80 and taking pics. I'll post shortly....


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## liquidsoaplady (May 13, 2015)

*LS Separation &amp; PS 80*

Hi,

At what percentage are you adding essential oils.....1% of the formulation, 5%?? Adding too much will cloud and cause separation. They also need to be added while the soap if HOT, such as right after diluting your soap. Are they essential oils or fragrance oils? Oil based or not? Try scaling back on the percentage if it is over 5% of your total formulation, and adding to hot soap stock. I hope I didn't duplicate anything, I didn't read all the preceding posts. Hope this helps!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 14, 2015)

liquidsoaplady said:


> ....... I hope I didn't duplicate anything, I didn't read all the preceding posts......




Why didn't you read them all? Then you'd know if you needed to post this or not.


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## skepnic (Aug 12, 2015)

@liquidsoaplady i just bought liquid castile and added eo. But some of them has separation. Can i reheat the castile before adding eo to avoid it?


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## DeeAnna (Aug 12, 2015)

Skepnic -- This is the second place I've seen your question. It is best to ask a question in only one thread. It gets confusing to everyone else if you ask the same question in more than one thread. If you want the best response, start a new thread and ask your question there.


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