# Lotion bar questions



## seven (Nov 12, 2014)

i'm going to do my 1st lotion bar soon, and i'm thinking to use soy wax instead of the usual beeswax. has anyone tried soy wax for lotion bar? how does it feel on the skin compared to beeswax?

i live in the tropics, and it can get quite hot here during the day (35-40 C). a bit concerned about melting issue. i know many recipes stated 1:1:1 (butter:wax: oil) ratio. if i want to make it less susceptible to melting, should i increase the portion of wax? i'm thinking yes... cmiiw..

any input appreciated..


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## Susie (Nov 12, 2014)

If you live in the tropics, I would not substitute out soy wax, as I find it melts much easier than beeswax.  I had to stop using soy wax altogether in my lip balms for that very reason.  Even in winter, they won't pass the pocket test with soy as the wax.

And yes, you may want to increase the wax to oils ratio.  But the beauty of making balms and lotion bars is that you can always remelt it and adjust until you get your proportions right.  Just be sure to be super careful weighing everything and keep good notes.


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## seven (Nov 13, 2014)

thanks Susie, i didn't know that soy wax melts easier than beeswax. back to beeswax i guess..


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 13, 2014)

Good point on the remelting idea! Make a non-scented one for playing with until you are happy with it and then make it smell nice.

Mine hold up fine unless it gets super hot or super cold, but then here it is (fairly) temperate.  I don't use any waxes, just shea and cocoa butters.


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## shunt2011 (Nov 13, 2014)

I use beeswax but I use less than 1/3 as I prefer them a bit softer. They still hold up even in hot sticky weather (not that we get a lot of that). Too much and they will be waxy feeling. I kept mine unscented until it had the consistency I wanted then I separated it and scented. You'll have to let us know how yours turns out.


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## Susie (Nov 13, 2014)

I am still tweaking lotion bar and lip balm recipes.  So, what I do is if I think I have the correct formula, I pour a little bit into a very small container or if it is lip balm, one tube.  I pour the rest into a 1-2 oz plastic container and set it aside.  I use the test bit over several days in different conditions.  If I is a good recipe, I then remelt, scent, color(if lip balm), and pour into tubes or tubs to give to my test subjects.(*ahem* I mean my beloved family.)  Once they approve, it gets made in a larger batch for giving away to extended family and friends.  But you can remelt and adjust that recipe as many times as needed.  Just be careful not to overheat it.


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## Susie (Nov 13, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> I use beeswax but I use less than 1/2 as I prefer them a bit softer.  They still hold up even in hot sticky weather (not that we get a lot of that).  Too much and they will be waxy feeling.  I kept mine unscented until it had the consistency I wanted then I separated it and scented.  You'll have to let us know how yours turns out.



If I lived up there where it gets so cold, I would probably use much less beeswax also.  As a matter of fact, my current winter lip balm recipe uses .65:1:1 beeswax to butters and oils.  But, our winter weather is much like your late spring/fall weather.  So, yes, less beeswax is better for cooler weather.


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## shunt2011 (Nov 13, 2014)

Susie said:


> If I lived up there where it gets so cold, I would probably use much less beeswax also. As a matter of fact, my current winter lip balm recipe uses .65:1:1 beeswax to butters and oils. But, our winter weather is much like your late spring/fall weather. So, yes, less beeswax is better for cooler weather.


 
I actually meant less than 1/3...not quite half.  Dang typos...:razz:

Your lip balm sounds nice too!


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## seven (Nov 13, 2014)

thanks guys, i will def follow your suggestions on keeping it basic/unscented till i get the right consistency. the weather here is hot hot hot.. and HUMID!  i think it's going to be quite a challenge to create the "right" lotion bar. i'm thinking to pack it in a tin, wrapped in tissue paper.


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## new12soap (Nov 13, 2014)

have you tried or considered trying candelilla wax? It is much harder than beeswax, you would use about half as much, and vegan-friendly if that is a concern.


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## seven (Nov 13, 2014)

i dont think i can buy candelilla locally  i already have beeswax and soy lying around, not really in the mood in buying stuff online from overseas (cc just got hacked a while ago, which sucks big time!).


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## kmarvel (Nov 13, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> I actually meant less than 1/3...not quite half. Dang typos...:razz:
> 
> Your lip balm sounds nice too!



Shunt,


 My 2nd lotion bar with the mango butter was a little harder.  Now that it is in the low 70's here in AZ, seems as tho the bar is too hard.  haha

 If I use equal parts of butter and oil and 1/3 beeswax, do you think that would do the trick?


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## kmarvel (Nov 13, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Good point on the remelting idea! Make a non-scented one for playing with until you are happy with it and then make it smell nice.
> 
> Mine hold up fine unless it gets super hot or super cold, but then here it is (fairly) temperate. I don't use any waxes, just shea and cocoa butters.



You don't use any beeswax at all??  I thought that is what "stuck" the butters and oils together??      :shock:


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## shunt2011 (Nov 13, 2014)

kmarvel said:


> Shunt,
> 
> 
> My 2nd lotion bar with the mango butter was a little harder. Now that it is in the low 70's here in AZ, seems as tho the bar is too hard. haha
> ...



I would try that.  Would probably work well for you.  We are in the 30's.:razz:


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## seven (Nov 14, 2014)

okay, am going to try these 2 recipes:

1 part wax (beeswax + soy wax)
1 part hard butter (shea + mango)
1 part soft butter (coffee butter, coz i have some lying around)
1 part soft oil (fractionated coconut)

and another one:

1 part beeswax
1 part hard butter
1 part oil

will compare them on my skin and post update..


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## seven (Nov 16, 2014)

Seriously hate the feeling of lotion bar on my skin  reminds me of whipped butter. Too heavy, sticky for my kind of weather. 

Trying to offer lotion bar for my customer for those who prefer a more natural lotion. Guess i'm going to work hard on tweaking the recipe to work. 

btw, is this just the nature of the beast with lotion bars? sticky and heavy? or is it possible to formulate a lighter, non sticky one? practically have zero knowledge with lotion bars. so far much prefer an emulsified lotion/butter.


Sent from my iPhone using Soap Making


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## Saponista (Nov 16, 2014)

Some people put in tapioca or corn starch which is supposed to alleviate the sticky feeling. I really dislike the feeling of them too and have never succeeded in producing anything that I would enjoy using myself.


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## cmzaha (Nov 17, 2014)

I do not like shea in mine, it is just to greasy. I pour mine in jars so I do not have to use as much beeswax. Sunflower wax is nice if you do not want as much beeswax. IPM works much better than cornstarch or tapioca starch at helping absorption and cutting some of the greasy feeling. Of course that does affect the natural aspect. I do not make my solid lotion with IPM


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## girlishcharm2004 (Nov 17, 2014)

Personally, I think the greasy feeling has partly to do with the shea butter.  It's _very _heavy on the skin. Coconut oil can be heavy too; although, I don't know about fractioned coconut oil.  Also, I have found that while olive oil is nice on the skin, avocado oil feels *so *much better.  If I get a couple extra drops of olive oil on my hands and rub it on my face, my skin can feel and look oily.  However, with avocado oil, my skin will feel supply and smooth, but no greasy look or feeling.  If you had a way to harden up the avocado oil (with a wax of some sort and not a heavy butter), I assume that would feel divine.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 17, 2014)

kmarvel said:


> You don't use any beeswax at all?? I thought that is what "stuck" the butters and oils together?? :shock:


 
My lotion bars are just butters, no oils - no beeswax required


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## shunt2011 (Nov 17, 2014)

I use IPM in my lotion bars and whipped butters and it make a big difference.  I didn't like arrowroot, or tapioca starch as I thought it felt grainy to me.


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## seven (Nov 17, 2014)

thanks for the suggestion on IPM. i do have some lying around, and def going to try it.. i'm also going to eliminate the shea, and replace it with mango only.


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## lillybella (Nov 17, 2014)

*Candelilla Wax &  Carnauba Wax*

Hi :razz:

I make my lotion bars with Mango Butter & Candelilla Wax.

I notice that Candelilla Wax usually is not used alone, but Carnauba Wax is added.

Does anyone know why the Carnauba Wax is added?

What's the advantage?

Thanks,
Lily


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## lillybella (Nov 17, 2014)

What is IPM?


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## new12soap (Nov 17, 2014)

isopropyl myristate

and here is some info:

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/06/better-crafting-through-chemistry_26.html


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## lillybella (Nov 17, 2014)

Thank you, New!

Can anyone answer this for me?

*********************************

I make my lotion bars with Mango Butter & Candelilla Wax.

I notice that Candelilla Wax usually is not used alone, but Carnauba Wax is added.

Does anyone know why the Carnauba Wax is added?

What's the advantage?

Thanks,
Lily


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## kmarvel (Nov 18, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> I use IPM in my lotion bars and whipped butters and it make a big difference. I didn't like arrowroot, or tapioca starch as I thought it felt grainy to me.



IPM does well in your lotion bars?   I tried the cornstarch but I think it was too drying.  Right now with the weather cooling off I am going to hold off and just use the beeswax, avocado oil and mango butter.  But probably start using the IPM come Spring.


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## cmzaha (Nov 18, 2014)

I use IPM in all lotion bars and lip balm


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## kmarvel (Dec 1, 2014)

cmzaha said:


> I use IPM in all lotion bars and lip balm



Different question.          I have one 1.5 oz silicone mold that has 6 round molds on it.  Has anyone added maybe 5 or 6 drops of EO or FO per mold to make 6 different scents??


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## shunt2011 (Dec 1, 2014)

You could do that.  Just don't exceed the recommended amount.   I make batches and then just make 3-4 of each but never made just 1 of several different scents.


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## kmarvel (Dec 1, 2014)

shunt2011 said:


> You could do that. Just don't exceed the recommended amount. I make batches and then just make 3-4 of each but never made just 1 of several different scents.



     What is the recommended amount????


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## new12soap (Dec 1, 2014)

lillybella, carnauba wax is very hard, very glossy, and rather pricey. I think most of the time it is the carnauba that is being supplemented with candelilla, not the other way around. You can add carnauba if you want more shine, like a lipstick, but it isn't necessary.

kmarvel, the recommended usage amount is going to be different for every FO and EO. Some are safe at 5% and above, others should not be used at a rate of more than 0.5%, or one-tenth as much. Yes, you can use a tiny amount of fragrance in individual cavity molds. If the single mold holds 3oz of soap or about 84g, you could use up to 4.2 grams of a 5% fragrance oil. But you will need to look up the safe usage rates (or contact your supplier to get them) for each scent you want to test and calculate each one.


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## lillybella (Dec 1, 2014)

*Lotion Bar*

Thank you, New12Soap :razz:


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## kmarvel (Dec 2, 2014)

new12soap said:


> lillybella, carnauba wax is very hard, very glossy, and rather pricey. I think most of the time it is the carnauba that is being supplemented with candelilla, not the other way around. You can add carnauba if you want more shine, like a lipstick, but it isn't necessary.
> 
> kmarvel, the recommended usage amount is going to be different for every FO and EO. Some are safe at 5% and above, others should not be used at a rate of more than 0.5%, or one-tenth as much. Yes, you can use a tiny amount of fragrance in individual cavity molds. If the single mold holds 3oz of soap or about 84g, you could use up to 4.2 grams of a 5% fragrance oil. But you will need to look up the safe usage rates (or contact your supplier to get them) for each scent you want to test and calculate each one.



Thanks .         Sounds too dicey to play with individual FO's per bar.  I did find a fragrance calculator on the MMS site which is pretty helpful.


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## new12soap (Dec 2, 2014)

Oops, my fault! I was thinking soap, and you are talking about lotion bars. Fragrance for a leave on product is almost always going to be lower, usually around 1-2%.

I don't think it's particularly dicey, it's a great way to test your scents. Line up your FO's and EO's, I would put them on a sheet of paper with the amount I am going to use written down right in front of each bottle, and a handful of pipettes right there.

Either way, whether you do a bunch of test bars at once, or wait and use fragrance later, you still want to check the rates for each specific fragrance or EO. I believe it is category 4 for leave on products such as lotions and lotion bars.

HTH


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## kmarvel (Dec 2, 2014)

new12soap said:


> Oops, my fault! I was thinking soap, and you are talking about lotion bars. Fragrance for a leave on product is almost always going to be lower, usually around 1-2%.
> 
> I don't think it's particularly dicey, it's a great way to test your scents. Line up your FO's and EO's, I would put them on a sheet of paper with the amount I am going to use written down right in front of each bottle, and a handful of pipettes right there.
> 
> ...



I was going to make 6 bars with 6 different scents.  For a 12 oz batch I used 25 drops of a FO.

 Now I use about 9 oz a batch and have no idea what 1% is of 9 oz.  Math dummy here.  lol


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## new12soap (Dec 2, 2014)

Well, I like to work in grams, but ounces work too. The problem is I have NO idea how many drops are in a gram (or an ounce).

As for the math, it's just about moving the decimal over. If you are starting with 9 ounces, then 0.9 oz is 10%, and 0.09 ounces is 1%.

Grab a calculator, enter the amount (in this case 9) then x (multiply) then put in whatever your percentage is that you are looking for (in this case, 1), then find the % key (that part is important!) and press that, then = and it will tell you what you need to know.

Example: Let's say I am making 250g of lotion and I want a heavy fragrance at 1.5% (and I know my FO is safe at that amount), I would grab my calculator or in my case my phone and enter this:

250 x 1.5% = 3.75 so I know I need 3.75g of fragrance for that batch.

Let's do one for soap, I am making a 2 lb batch oil weight, so that's 32oz, and I want to use 5% fragrance oil, that looks like this:

32 x 5% = 1.6 ounces of fragrance

The answer is whatever unit you used, and the % key on the calculator moves the decimal for you. The display WILL CHANGE when you push that % key, it is supposed to do that, so don't panic!

Here is a harder one, some EO is only skin safe at 0.5%, and in lotions some preservatives are used at 0.1-0.5%, so you do the same thing. For that 2lb batch of soap, it's:

32 x 0.5 % = 0.16 ounces of EO.

Easy Peasy!

HTH


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## cmzaha (Dec 3, 2014)

15 drops to a 1 gram or 1 milliliter


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## lillybella (Dec 3, 2014)

*Preservative in Spray*

I mix Lavender with distilled water to use as a spray. It does not come in contact with other water. 

Do I need to use a preservative in this?


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## kmarvel (Dec 3, 2014)

new12soap said:


> Well, I like to work in grams, but ounces work too. The problem is I have NO idea how many drops are in a gram (or an ounce).
> 
> As for the math, it's just about moving the decimal over. If you are starting with 9 ounces, then 0.9 oz is 10%, and 0.09 ounces is 1%.
> 
> ...



I love it when people understand math, write it out for you (of which I deeply appreciate) and then end the quote with "easy peasy".  For some of us, it definitely is not.  :sad:


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## new12soap (Dec 3, 2014)

Ahhh, sorry kmarvel! I know, anything is easy when you can do it, that doesn't mean it's easy for anyone else. I really do think that a lot of people are just phobic when it comes to math and sort of freeze up.





lillybella said:


> I mix Lavender with distilled water to use as a spray. It does not come in contact with other water.
> 
> Do I need to use a preservative in this?



 IMO, yes.

I use liquid germall plus, but some are not comfortable using that in anything that is sprayed (I feel it only applies to anything aerosol-ized), but any water soluble preservative will be fine.


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## lillybella (Dec 3, 2014)

Thank you new12soap 

"liquid germall plus, but some are not comfortable using that in anything that is sprayed"

why are some people uncomfortable using this?

If I'm using FO Modifier do I still have to use a preservative?


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## new12soap (Dec 3, 2014)

Here you go, this explains it pretty well, and gives alternatives. http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/search?q=liquid+germall+plus

Yes, an FO modifier is a solubilizer, you would still need a preservative IMO.

My general rule is anything that contains water or will come in contact with water needs a preservative, period. Always better safe than sorry, or as my grandmother would have said, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".


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## kmarvel (Dec 4, 2014)

new12soap said:


> Ahhh, sorry kmarvel! I know, anything is easy when you can do it, that doesn't mean it's easy for anyone else. I really do think that a lot of people are just phobic when it comes to math and sort of freeze up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




 I appreciate all the help and explaining tho.         It does help.


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