# Courtesy on the Forum



## jiroband (Aug 23, 2015)

I would like to bring up the subject of courtesy and respect on this forum.  

Personally, I really enjoy hearing all of the different opinions and ideas brought up by other members. Creating an atmosphere where everyone is respected, and where all opinions matter and are valid is paramount to sharing and learning.

One thing that troubles me is when one member comments on someone else’s post, saying something like, “I disagree with (name),” or in some other way disparages that member’s experience or opinion. If you disagree with someone’s comments, it is sufficient and less offensive to simply say in your post, “This is what I think,” or “This is what I would do,” without referencing another member’s name or ideas, then attempting to invalidate them.

We all have different experiences, interests, likes, and dislikes. When everyone feels free, unintimidated, and respected, we share more and learn more. This applies to much more than just making soap.

Just my 2 cents.

Jim Anderson


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## not_ally (Aug 23, 2015)

I agree with you, of course, Jim.  I would say that for the most part people are pretty respectful of each other here.  Sometimes things go sideways, because we are human, I know that sometimes someone will say something that leads me to be cranky (usually after *I* have had a bad day, my fault for not guarding) but it is pretty rare, and I always regret it afterwards, and try to apologize, afterwards.  

Unless it is the very rare case it is somehow really hateful (racist, homophobic or the like.)  Then, after the initial volley which I cannot control I just shut up and never respond to them again, and they often get booted anyway, the mods are really good that way.

Anyway, this board really is pretty good in that respect, not much friction, a huge amount of generous information sharing.  To me it is kind of real life but better, the v. few people I might not be friendly to in real life I just don't respond to very much or at all, which seems like a good bargain for what I am given here.   I think most people here are pretty kind, and forgiving when you make mistakes, as I have in the past.

This really is as good as it gets, the only other board w/as much information available and in the archives - DISH - is much scrappier, the other boards have much less activity/stored information/help on hand.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Aug 23, 2015)

I disagree with......oh, wait 

But seriously, I think there are times when someone has said something more as a matter of fact than opinion, people do need to concretely ensure that the information is given context or, if it is utterly false or even dangerous, clearly corrected so there is no doubt. 

If someone says "use vinegar on a lye spill" then people will correct that in no uncertain terms. If someone says "you must always do x, because if you don't then y will happen" when that is really not the case, people will make sure that it is corrected. 

"In my experience I find that x happens with my soaps" allows a more open response.

Eta - I think that quoting is part of your issue, but quoting a particular post is also important to be able to help others to know what exactly is being discussed. Someone will have their name on the quoted information, of course, but then that person did say it in the first place


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## Aline (Aug 23, 2015)

Agree totally. But I haven't seen anything disrespectful recently....?


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## cmzaha (Aug 23, 2015)

LOL, you think the Dish is scrappy!!! nooooo  Back to the original subject, most of the time this is a very friendly forum as with any forum threads can take a life of their own. Even though everyone is usually friendly, comments are not always sugar coated and should not be sugar coated if info is wrong or can be harmful. There is a wealth of info here as there is a wealth of info on the other mentioned forum, but one needs to put on their "big girl panties" over there!  I personally enjoy all the forums


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## TVivian (Aug 23, 2015)

I think as long as people are courteous about it, it's ok to say you disagree with someone. This is an online forum and we are adults that should be able to say we agree or disagree. I think it's especially important to state WHY we don't agree, if we feel a person isn't getting the best advice possible. It's not being rude or snarky, it's simply about trying to save someone from making mistakes.


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## not_ally (Aug 23, 2015)

Carolyn, I *really* like the DISHER's.  They have been really, really kind to me almost without exception, and I kind of love that board for that. It is a different kind of board than this one though, people are more willing to be engaged in each other's lives on a personal level, the tenor is almost entirely of a different kind.

But they are definitely much harder on newbies, or people who speak without thinking - which I did on a couple of occasions - or people who are somehow presenting as something other that what they are.  Jim, this has nothing to do with you,  I am *sure* that you are not doing this, I can already tell from your posts, I am just kind of reflecting on the differences b/w my two favorite boards. Pretty much off-topic musings.


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## Obsidian (Aug 23, 2015)

I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to invalidate someone else's opinion whether their name was used or not. The exception is if someone gives dangerous advice, then they will be corrected.


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## sudsy_kiwi (Aug 23, 2015)

Sorry but i have to disagree here.  Disagreement is a part of life...real life, as as well as the internet.  Saying that you disagree with someone, and then giving valid reasons for your disagreement is a perfectly valid part of communicating.  Learning to deal with the fact that others disagree with you is a very important part of becoming an adult member of society.  In some walks of life, it's known as "healthy debate".

I do, however, agree that it can be done a right way, and a wrong way.  Thankfully, on this forum, I generally see it done the right way.  Name-calling, rants and personal attacks appear to be absent from this community (at least, from what I've seen) which makes it a very pleasant haven in an increasingly unpleasant world.

Personally, I think the OP is taking things just a little too far.  But hey, that's just my opinion...feel free to disagree with it


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## cmzaha (Aug 23, 2015)

not_ally said:


> Carolyn, I *really* like the DISHER's.  They have been really, really kind to me almost without exception, and I kind of love that board for that. It is a different kind of board than this one though, people are more willing to be engaged in each other's lives on a personal level, the tenor is almost entirely of a different kind.
> 
> But they are definitely much harder on newbies, or people who speak without thinking - which I did on a couple of occasions - or people who are somehow presenting as something other that what they are.  Jim, this has nothing to do with you,  I am *sure* that you are not doing this, I can already tell from your posts, I am just kind of reflecting on the differences b/w my two favorite boards. Pretty much off-topic musings.


For the most part they are fine. I do not post much on the Dish but have been a member for several yrs. My first month or so as a member a member decided she need to police my website. Ticked me off and I told her! They have a few members who run great coops and one is going on now for exotic oils. Actually did not check if she closed it today.


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## Susie (Aug 23, 2015)

Since I don't know exactly what forum discussion you are referring to, I am having a difficult time figuring out exactly what to say.  However, I am going to go with this being a general statement, and respond in kind.  If you are referring to a specific incident, please post it so everyone can know exactly what to respond to. 

I agree that the forum should foster an open discussion that is mutually respectful of everyone.  However, we don't necessarily have to agree with everyone.  I think we have a responsibility to set people straight when they are telling people to do dangerous things, or even using materials that will waste someone's resources.  Some of us fail to sugar coat such statements on a regular basis.  I am one of the worst offenders.  Sometimes it is completely baffling to me why people react badly to mine or other's responses.

But if your specific issue is with us using quotes that have people's names, or using someone's name when we disagree on a thread that has multiple folks responding, I just don't understand the issue.  To me, this is facilitating proper communication rather than leaving folks wondering to what and to whom _specifically_ you are agreeing with or disagreeing with.  This enables other people reading that thread to go back and read the original statement with your response so that they can then formulate their own response to what was said by both parties.  

Again, if I am wrong in my assumption of what exactly you are saying, please feel free to correct me.  I am rather shooting in the dark on exactly what the issue is.



sudsy_kiwi said:


> Sorry but i have to disagree here.  Disagreement is a part of life...real life, as as well as the internet.  Saying that you disagree with someone, and then giving valid reasons for your disagreement is a perfectly valid part of communicating.  Learning to deal with the fact that others disagree with you is a very important part of becoming an adult member of society.  In some walks of life, it's known as "healthy debate".
> 
> I do, however, agree that it can be done a right way, and a wrong way.  Thankfully, on this forum, I generally see it done the right way.  Name-calling, rants and personal attacks appear to be absent from this community (at least, from what I've seen) which makes it a very pleasant haven in an increasingly unpleasant world.



^This.  Exactly.


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## Relle (Aug 23, 2015)

I'm not sure if you are referring to a particular post or not, but my 2 cents is, if I disagree, I disagree, I say so - simple, no beating around the bush. Saying you disagree is not discourteous or offensive, it's just stating you don't think the opinion given is what you would do or say, which I would do in every day conversation face to face.


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## Jstar (Aug 24, 2015)

Well I agree with everyone..sometimes ~lol~

Seriously tho, I do believe I know the post {dont remember the thread name tho} the OP is referring to..I saw it, and thought nothing of it...*shrug*

We're pretty much tough skinned around here imo..and the only time I think anyone has been anything other than respectful is when someone decides to be flat out snotty towards someone who is trying to help them..which isn't often..but when it happens the snotty one usually is shot down in flames in short order and it's over.

I dont think disagreeing with anyone is bad, even naming names {how will everyone know what is being disagreed with?}..it's an opinion and we all have them {I wont add the rest of that little diddly lol} however as was said already we will correct something that is said that could be dangerous or is downright wrong information..and we don't sugar coat that...

If Im wrong about something, I expect the more experienced here to correct me because I dont want to give wrong info to anyone else...and if someone disagrees with something Ive said, that's fine by me. We're all adults and human..it happens


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## jules92207 (Aug 24, 2015)

I am pretty grateful when someone disagrees with me, it's a chance to learn, and to be a better soaper I must always be willing to learn. I think I remember reading a thread when there was a couple posts disagreeing with the OP and I didn't think anything was disrespectful about it either. I do think if you hang around here long enough you will see everyone here is so helpful and supportive it's hard to imagine there was anything that was meant to be disrespectful.


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## TeresaT (Aug 24, 2015)

Was it something I said?

(Much funnier in my head.)


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## JayJay (Aug 24, 2015)

jules92207 said:


> I am pretty grateful when someone disagrees with me, it's a chance to learn, and to be a better soaper I must always be willing to learn. I think I remember reading a thread when there was a couple posts disagreeing with the OP and I didn't think anything was disrespectful about it either. I do think if you hang around here long enough you will see everyone here is so helpful and supportive it's hard to imagine there was anything that was meant to be disrespectful.



Yes-  I have learned SO much from the debates on this forum. Two smart people debating the nuances of an issue brings out points that would not have come out of people were simpler politely agreeing, being silent,  or indirectly disagreeing. Most of them have been respectful. A few were not. But I think that we all agree that we should be respectful in our disagreement. 

And as far an naming names goes -- Honestly, I don't think I would have been able to follow some of the threads as well if names and quotes weren't given.


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## not_ally (Aug 24, 2015)

At this point, I kind of would rather *not* know what the specific discussion was, it might digress into another about who was or was not right, even if it provided a better context for the initial post.  I am just happy that this is generally a nice place and that mods are really good about shutting down discussions if they stray too far.  

In real life I have a hair-trigger temper.  It is not triggered that often, but when it is, I cannot stop myself from going on until the bitter end, and I hate it afterwards, I get really, really angry.  I don't like that aspect of myself, and like that people here either self-moderate or are externally moderated to prevent those results.


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## IrishLass (Aug 24, 2015)

Jiroband, (and this goes for everyone else, too), if you find you have a personal complaint to make against a particular post/poster, the best course of action is to either settle it with the actual poster via PM, or else PM one of our Modmin team, especially if it involves a violation of our TOS.

Debates and disagreements are a natural part of the ebb and flow of conversation, and although it is human nature to feel a little uncomfortable when being disagreed with, more often than not, one will find that no rudeness or disparagement was actually intended by the one disagreeing at all. Most times it's just simply a matter of people having a bad day and/or words coming out the wrong way, or else someone _taking_ things the wrong way from what they were actually intended. Since none of us are immune to such things, we should all be willing to give each other the benefit of the doubt before deciding whether or not to take offense. Starting a 'complaint' thread on the public part of the forum, especially a general complaint that makes veiled references to a specific point of contention, but without supplying the actual source of the contention, is not particularly helpful and only stirs up unwanted drama. Best to address it via PM.


IrishLass


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## Sonya-m (Aug 28, 2015)

I actually like the fact that this forum is straight to the point (without being rude)

Sometimes there is a need for something to be stated in no uncertain terms and definitely when it comes to soap, especially safety issues. 

If someone said they disagreed with me about something like a colour combo etc I wouldn't assume they're trying to change my mind, just that it's not for them and would respect that's their opinion.


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## dixiedragon (Aug 28, 2015)

I find it pretty ludicrous that somebody saying, "I disagree with so-and-so" is rude. Disagreement is not disparagement. And suppressing disagreement is a suppression of discourse and the exchange of ideas and information, which I find it be distasteful in the extreme. 

Disagreement can be expressed in a way that is rude, disparaging, contemptuous, etc. But the phrase "I disagree" is not one of those. It is a statement of fact.


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## dixiedragon (Aug 28, 2015)

Also, I think it's pretty rude that somebody who's only bothered to post here 67 times thinks it's appropriate to lecture on the forum's culture.


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