# On the drawing board



## John Harris (Aug 22, 2021)

My next project:

My first (real) swirl - a 20 bar, two color ITP.  Dark blue and light blue with a blueberry FO. (Has anybody used blueberry FO before?  I can't imagine it would have much appeal, but I have the blues and I have 16 oz of the FO.)

I am wondering:  should I pour the light blue into the dark, or the other way around?


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## Pamela Carver (Aug 22, 2021)

John Harris said:


> My next project:
> 
> My first (real) swirl - a 20 bar, two color ITP.  Dark blue and light blue with a blueberry FO. (Has anybody used blueberry FO before?  I can't imagine it would have much appeal, but I have the blues and I have 16 oz of the FO.)
> 
> I am wondering:  should I pour the light blue into the dark, or the other way around?


Are you using equal amounts of each color? If so it may not make much difference, you could alternate some.  If I were using more of one I would pour the accent (lesser amount) into the base color. Good luck and have fun!


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## lsg (Aug 22, 2021)

I usually do an in-the-pot swirl and add darker colors to my lighter base.


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## John Harris (Aug 22, 2021)

I've written a check list so I won't forget anything in the heat of the two color ITP swirling.
Does this sound right?  Any suggestions welcome.

Blueberry ITP Swirl

Mix the oils
Add the scent
Add the lye
Bring to emulsion
Pour some into a pitcher
Color the pot
Color the pitcher
Pour the pitcher into the pot in three places and at three levels: high, medium, and low.
Leave some in the pitcher.
Once around with the spatula
Pour into the mold
Dribble the remainder over the top
Swirl with a skewer.

I could call this "John's No Think Method".


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## AliOop (Aug 22, 2021)

Usually one would add the scent after splitting and coloring. That way, you will have completed as many other steps as you can before the scent accelerates the batter, like so many of them do.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 22, 2021)

Make sure you disperse your micas in a lightweight oil.  They will mix in better that way.


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## John Harris (Aug 22, 2021)

MellonFriend said:


> Make sure you disperse your micas in a lightweight oil.  They will mix in better that way.


There was an oversight - I didn't allow for color prep!
How do you account for that lightweight oil in your recipe computations?


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## Ford (Aug 22, 2021)

Hi, I have been taking batch oils. Everything combined, before lye solution. To mix mine in. Thinking this way does not add. Any additional oils. I use 3-4oz paper cups. Just dip and mix. About an oz of oil. Work's for me. Your mileage may vary. Insert just after "mix the oils".


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## MellonFriend (Aug 22, 2021)

John Harris said:


> There was an oversight - I didn't allow for color prep!
> How do you account for that lightweight oil in your recipe computations?


I actually don't worry about it.  I use only about a tablespoon of oil per teaspoon of mica.  I figure it will not make that big a difference in the soap, maybe just a slightly higher percent super fat.  I'm a newbie though so maybe there are different opinions.


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## cerelife (Aug 22, 2021)

Which Blueberry FO are you using? I love BB Blueberry Jam because it doesn't discolor, doesn't accelerate, and has a great blueberry scent that doesn't fade! I named it "On Blueberry Hill" and many people (of a certain age) picked it up while singing "I found my thrill..." It's a good seller for me.
I don't disperse my micas in oil, I add them directly to the batter. IME it makes no difference at all when using quality micas from reputable sources, so why make more work for yourself? Oxides, AC, TD are a different story.
As for which shade of blue should be poured into the other - like someone else said - if you're using equal amounts it really shouldn't matter. 
If you're doing more like 2/3 and 1/3, then the larger amount is your base and the smaller your accent color. If you've got the heavy blues then I would make the dark your base and the light your accent. For a mild case of the blues I would do the opposite.
Looking forward to seeing your creation!


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 23, 2021)

Are your dark vs. light blue colours two pigments, one more cyan-ish, one more in an ultramarine-indigo hue? Or do you just use one colourant and add it at different rates?

If you're using one colour at two concentrations, I'd for some reason recommend you to split the batter not into equal parts, but budget a greater quantity for the lighter, and less for the darker batter.
With two different colourants probably too.

And don't underestimate how much less pigment you'll need for a light colour. *Dye the dark batter first* (with pre-dispersed pigment), and only then judge colourant addition to the light batter for a decent contrast.

Finally, consider pouring a tiny bit of either batter into a small mould, and take notes about colourant usage rates. So you can with time build up a “library” of how your pigments perform in your soap. Or debug staining issues.



Oh poor @John Harris, you just wanted to do a “simple” design – you've hardly opened your mouth, but you're already besieged with good advice again!


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## Mobjack Bay (Aug 23, 2021)

If your recipe base is not very white and/or is translucent when it gels, you should also consider how those factors will influence the outcome of a lighter color. Pale blues can be tricky.  My strategy would be to use a pale shade of mica at the recommended rate or to add a small bit of TD or white mica to the base along with the darker colorant.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 23, 2021)

1. I often add the FO to the oils before mixing the lye, but if it's known accelerant I don't.
2. Are you sure the FO won't discolour?  You might end up with a grey/green soap if so.
3. I like Mobjack's idea of adding TD and a small amount of the main colour for your light blue.
4.  Go for a medium trace before pouring if you want better definition than the one I posted in your other thread.
5.  I quite like a 3/4 :1/4 ratio for main colour to accent colour. But that's just me - there are many ways to skin a cat.
6. Soap do what soap do


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## Whillow (Aug 23, 2021)

I was rewatching a Royalty Soap video last night and she was using a blueberry FO (sorry don't remember which one) and she said it discolours to a very dark brown. Might have been a blueberry pie scent I don't really remember.  Check that FO's write up perhaps before you use it.


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## LynetteO (Aug 23, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> If your recipe base is not very white and/or is translucent when it gels, you should also consider how those factors will influence the outcome of a lighter color. Pale blues can be tricky.  My strategy would be to use a pale shade of mica at the recommended rate or to add a small bit of TD or white mica to the base along with the darker colorant.


NOW, after two failed attempts, I read “pale blues can be tricky”.


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## John Harris (Aug 23, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Are your dark vs. light blue colours two pigments, one more cyan-ish, one more in an ultramarine-indigo hue? Or do you just use one colourant and add it at different rates?
> 
> If you're using one colour at two concentrations, I'd for some reason recommend you to split the batter not into equal parts, but budget a greater quantity for the lighter, and less for the darker batter.
> With two different colourants probably too.
> ...



Thank you all for so much good advice!  I will study it all and plot my course.

I have to chuckle a little as I tell you that I am going into this blind.  All the ingredients I have are ancient and I have no idea how they will perform!  I bought them from different suppliers over *20* years ago!  I know the scents still work well as I used a dozen of them 2 years ago with no problems. The soaps I made then still smell great.  The colorants, I figure, will be fine also. (BTW, my spell checker shows "colour", "colourant", and "mould" as all misspelled!    )  

I will give you a full update once I finally take the plunge.


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## John Harris (Aug 23, 2021)

cerelife said:


> Oxides, AC, TD are a different story.



What is AC?


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## MrsZ (Aug 23, 2021)

John Harris said:


> What is AC?


Activated charcoal.


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## amd (Aug 23, 2021)

John Harris said:


> Has anybody used blueberry FO before? I can't imagine it would have much appeal,


Yes! I use NG's Blueberry - it's fantastic to work with and slows trace in my recipe. I made 54 bars of this soap and have sold 40-ish since the beginning of the year.


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## John Harris (Aug 23, 2021)

I finally rounded up my scent and colorants.  I have 2/3 of a 16 oz. bottle of Blueberry FO.  I don't smell blueberry at all, but my soaping partner says it reeks of blueberry.

In the colorant department I have Ultramarine Blue and Light Blue Pigment. However, in the jars, they both look identical, that is, like Ultramarine Blue. Maybe if I added some TD to the Light Blue pigment I could produce a actual Light Blue.

Everything is from Brambleberry.


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 23, 2021)

John Harris said:


> What is AC?


Guess where that rock band *Activated Charcoal  Deactivated Charcoal* has its name from.



John Harris said:


> In the colorant department I have Ultramarine Blue and Light Blue Pigment. However, in the jars, they both look identical, that is, like Ultramarine Blue. Maybe if I added some TD to the Light Blue pigment I could produce a actual Light Blue.


Make three separate slurries of either (in carrier oil/water/glyerol, whatever works well) in advance. Note their weight (colo*u*rant + carrier liquid + container). Dye the dark batter, then add a small portion first of the Light Blue to the light batter; you have to eyeball then if it has enough colo*u*r depth, opacity and contrast, or if it's better to add more Light Blue and/or TD. Hope that the vibrance of the colours somewhat stays stable through saponification. Take notes, so that you can adjust the amounts of colo*u*rants to closer approach your expectations next time. Finally, and most importantly, post pics here!


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## Zing (Aug 23, 2021)

You already got tons of advice but I can't resist adding my 2 cents.

For color prep, when I disperse colorants in oil first, I usually do 1 teaspoon of colorant in 1 tablespoon of oil.  When I add the dispersed colorant in oil, it's usually 1 teaspoon or smaller.  Don't worry about 1 tablespoon of oil affecting your recipe.  Sometimes I take a tablespoon out of my measured oils, sometimes it's an additional tablespoon.

I add my micas directly into my batter because I'm lazy and don't like to do color prep.  Because of that, almost all my colorants are micas.

By far my favorite blue is ultramarine blue pigment from Bramble Berry.  

I'm assuming your last step in your list is using a skewer to swirl just the top 1/4 inch?  

Keep us posted!


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 23, 2021)

If you do take it out of your measured oils - take it only out of the liquid oils and not the ones you have melted coz they just set up again ( well with soy wax, CO and shea butter they do).


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## John Harris (Aug 23, 2021)

What if I just put the colors on top of the batter and stick blended them in?  No good?


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## dibbles (Aug 23, 2021)

If you are using ultramarine you need to disperse it in oil (or glycerin) or it will be clumpy. Micas can be added dry and stick blended in if you want to do that. I still disperse micas in oil so I don’t have to stick blend more, unless I’m making a single color soap. In that case I usually stick blend the mica into the oils before adding the lye solution. I found this video to be very helpful when I was learning to use colorants.


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## cerelife (Aug 23, 2021)

John Harris said:


> What if I just put the colors on top of the batter and stick blended them in?  No good?


With micas you can absolutely do that, but ultramarines need to be prepped in oil first.
For my Blueberry soap I use Nurture's Kashmir mica and Winter White mica (which can be subbed for TD) for a 3 color soap. The perfect shades of both dark and light blue.
Here are my notes for a 2lb batch:
Blueberry Hill - 2 oz BB Blueberry Jam. Tilted tiger stripe with ½ tsp N Winter White mica, ⅛ tsp each of N Winter White  and N Kashmir mica, and ½ tsp Kashmir.
BTW, if you pour a tilted tiger at very thin trace (like just past emulsion) you get lovely swirls!


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 24, 2021)

But even with micas you can still get some clumps of colour. Best to disperse in oil first.


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## John Harris (Aug 24, 2021)

Sorry to keep hounding you guys with this, but I have been thinking...   If you have to prepare your colorants in advance and apart from your batter, how do you know how much colorant to use?  The color might look good in the prep container but it will change significantly when you stir it into the batter.
That's why I was liking the (bad) idea of adding the colorant to the batter. That way you could easily add more if it wasn't dark enough.
It's like you need to know in advance how much colorant your going to need to prepare to get the color you want in the batter.
Am I explaining this well?


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## dibbles (Aug 24, 2021)

@John Harris, some things you have to just do to learn from experience. This is another reason I pre-disperse my mica. I can add it a bit at a time until I get the color I want without using my stick blender. I rarely need to use the (recommended) 1 tsp PPO, and I only add enough oil (not batch oil) to my mica to get it beyond a paste like consistency - you definitely don't need a whole tablespoon of oil to disperse a teaspoon of mica. Sometimes there is a little waste of the colorant, but not that often and not that much. After awhile, you get a 'feel' or 'sense' of the right amount to use.

I don't use my batch oils to disperse my colorant, because I mix my color by eye to the shade I want. I would rather have a bit of extra oil than be a bit short. My rule of thumb is 3 or fewer total colors, I leave my superfat alone (normally 3-5%). Four or more colors I reduce my superfat by a percent or two. 

This is another reason to practice with smaller batches.


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 24, 2021)

@John Harris
At some point, it is inevitable to rely on that rocket-science-y concept of “eyeballing™”. Pre-disperse a generous amount of colourant (say, double the amount you believe is needed) into some neutral liquid oil (olive e. g.), and add it in small portions to your batter until _your gut feel tells you it's enough_.

If more is left over than you are ready to sacrifice to the sink: label it and put it on the shelf/into the fridge for the next soaping session. Better than running out of colourant early, and better than having pigment clumps, or having to SB too much after reaching emusion.


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## Tara_H (Aug 24, 2021)

John Harris said:


> Sorry to keep hounding you guys with this, but I have been thinking...   If you have to prepare your colorants in advance and apart from your batter, how do you know how much colorant to use?  The color might look good in the prep container but it will change significantly when you stir it into the batter.
> That's why I was liking the (bad) idea of adding the colorant to the batter. That way you could easily add more if it wasn't dark enough.
> It's like you need to know in advance how much colorant your going to need to prepare to get the color you want in the batter.
> Am I explaining this well?


Contrary to some other opinions, I weigh my micas and prepare them separately, I never adjust after adding to the batter*.  I know from testing the amount that gives a saturated or muted colour, and I plan that out when I'm calculating the volume for the mould.  If I'm using more than one colour, I calculate the proportion of batter that I want to be each colour and then use that for my calculations.  So far this technique has served me pretty well.
*Sometimes TD has a mind of its own and I have to tweak after adding, but I don't count that because it's just mental.


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## KiwiMoose (Aug 24, 2021)

I'm a 'it'll be alright' kinda soaper, so I just guess how much I think I will need and premix it.  Given that I usually make 1 kg (of oils) batches it means that the colours I split off are rarely more than half that amount - and usually if there are three or more colours it means they are little more than 200-300g per colour.  So I know from experience that I only need about a 1/3 teaspoon of mica to colour that much. As @dibbles states, it really is just that I've made so many batches now that I 'just know'.
N.b. I'm not a measurer.  When I say 1/3 teaspoon i have no idea if that's what I'm using. I use the end of one of my small mixing spatulas to scoop out the mica from the bag. When I say 200-300 grams I have no idea if that's what it weighs. I just pour it into a small jug until it looks 'about right'.  It's all done by 'eyeballing TM' (thanks @ResolvableOwl).  The only thing I measure is my oils, lye and liquid at the beginning of the process.
It'll all be OK in the end.  If it's not OK then it's not the end


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## Mobjack Bay (Aug 24, 2021)

John Harris said:


> In the colorant department I have Ultramarine Blue and Light Blue Pigment. However, in the jars, they both look identical, that is, like Ultramarine Blue. Maybe if I added some TD to the Light Blue pigment I could produce a actual Light Blue.


I have successfully used water to disperse oxides and ultramarines, but recently “masterbatched“ a few different colors with glycerin. Mixing with water turned out to be easier, but I wanted to try the glycerin for comparison.  I just recently made this *soap* using the ultramarine blue in glycerin. Look at how many blue tints you can get! The high OO (50%) base I used is close to white and a wee bit translucent when gelled. If your base isn’t close to white you might need some TD to achieve a true blue.


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## earlene (Aug 25, 2021)

John Harris said:


> How do you account for that lightweight oil in your recipe computations?


I generally prepare my colorants before I mix the soap batter, taking oils from the batch oils.  Sometimes I use soft oils (liquid), but I have used hard oils, then warmed them up right before adding to the split portions.  It's easier with soft oils of course.

I have used pre-batched colorants dispersed in glycerin, but found that I have to be careful not to use too much glycerin in a batch of soap.  Be sparing with the glycerin if you go this route, because I learned the hard way that too much added glycerin in bar soap makes soft rubbery soap that will never get hard.  I can't really say how much is too much, just that it happened to me and even after 4 or 5 years that soap never got hard.  Glycerin doesn't evaporate like water AND it attracts water (moisture from the air), so the soap was soft and rubbery for it's lifetime.  I salted some of it out and kept several bars to see what would happen.  Eventually it began to smell off, so I only recently tossed it.

So I became wary of mixing colorants in glycerin, and now when I do do it, I use the least amount of glycerin possible. But even so, I try not to use glycerin because of that experience.


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## John Harris (Aug 25, 2021)

Well, I finally did it! My first ITP. My main worry - accelerated trace or seizing - didn't happen.  I have a couple of pictures for you.  More to come once they get cut (36 - 48 hours.)

Thanks SO MUCH for all your helpful advice!


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## dibbles (Aug 25, 2021)

Look at you being all fancy - nice work! They look great!


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## AliOop (Aug 26, 2021)

Wow, love the color choices and swirls!


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 26, 2021)

Can't wait to see how it looks on the inside! (Still, much worse for you, I guess  )


Dumb question: what is your pot made of? It looks like paint cover fleece to me?


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## Ford (Aug 26, 2021)

hi, pot looks like enamel over steel. I have enamel camping cook ware. like this one.


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## MellonFriend (Aug 26, 2021)

Beautiful work!


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## John Harris (Aug 26, 2021)

The morning after

11 hours later and I thought I would lift the cover and have a peek. I lightly touched the surface. While the very top had developed a kind of soap membrane, the soap itself was *extremely *soft - jiggly, even.  It did go through a gel phase as the mold was quite hot last night.

I guess I'll have to wait another 24 - 48 hours to allow it to set.  But, as we all know, the waiting is maddening.

@ResolvableOwl As Ford says, yes, it is an enameled steel pot.


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## John Harris (Aug 27, 2021)

I think my ITP is in trouble.  Remember how I told you that a soap "membrane" formed on top of the slab of soap. Well now I am noticing that oil (fragrance, perhaps) is oozing up through the membrane to the surface.
I am not going to cut it yet. I think it is still too soft (after 48 hours).
I had no trouble with making the soap.  What could be happening?  Do you think that if I cut it and let it cure for six months or so, things will dry up and harden even?


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 28, 2021)

Is it anything similar to this? misbehaving bergamot!


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## John Harris (Aug 30, 2021)

Well, I cut the ITP project today  Below are some pictures.  Comments at the bottom. 











Some Comments:

Pros: 
The name of the soap (and the FO) is Blueberry.  I have to say that, at least in person, this really looks like a soap you'd want to call Blueberry! 
The accent colors are satisfactory - light and deep blues that were dribbled on the top..

Cons: 
The bars are _really _oily! I can't imagine why.  The soapmaking session seemed to go perfectly.
The bars are also rather soft for having cured for 72 hours.  These will have to sit a lot longer that the traditional 4-6 weeks.
The pot color was not a deep enough blue.
The accent light blue doesn't stand out enough from the pot color.


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## ResolvableOwl (Aug 30, 2021)

Wow! Give them the time they need, and judge them at earliest one week in. Oils reabsorbing is a thing, all is not lost (still worth thinking what could be the reason – overestimated lye purity?)

I'm really happy with the background colour! When I saw the pot, I was unsure about the colour contrast between the azure of the light accent colour and the turquoise/teal of the base, it didn't look right for my eyes. But now it seems like the base has gelled into a slight translucency, and this makes the opaque accents really pop out and no longer be “dissonant” to the bulk.

Does the whole surface have these blister-like pattern (are these the oil drops?)? It looks a bit like water damage – have you done something to it? (spritzing with rubbing alcohol, covering…) Be glad that it didn't turn into soda ash!


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## John Harris (Aug 30, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Does the whole surface have these blister-like pattern (are these the oil drops?)? It looks a bit like water damage – have you done something to it? (spritzing with rubbing alcohol, covering…) Be glad that it didn't turn into soda ash!


I don't know what those little bubbles could be. The only thing I've done to it is wipe up oil with tissues.  I am a good soapmaker, really I am!  LOL.   It's just this coloring stuff that is new to me.
It was a humid day.  The lye was at room temperature an the oils were around 112 Fahrenheit. It did go into gel phase.  I'm tempted to try that recipe again, just to see what will happen.


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## TennisGirl (Aug 30, 2021)

If it weren't just on the tops, I'd guess from the pics that the FO separated and riced a bit. But since it is just the tops, based on what you shared, I'm leaning towards condensation drops, assuming you covered it and there was enough warmth and humidity for condensation to drip off the covering onto the soap tops. I've only had that happen when humidity was pretty high. Dunno. Colors and swirls look great to me.


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## John Harris (Aug 31, 2021)

TennisGirl said:


> If it weren't just on the tops, I'd guess from the pics that the FO separated and riced a bit. But since it is just the tops, based on what you shared, I'm leaning towards condensation drops, assuming you covered it and there was enough warmth and humidity for condensation to drip off the covering onto the soap tops. I've only had that happen when humidity was pretty high. Dunno. Colors and swirls look great to me.



It's not just on the tops, it's all over and it does look and smell like the FO separated.  Why would that be?

Right now, I have moved the bars into my heavy duty soap drying tower. A combination of these two things (below) (with the fan laying flat on the silverware rack)


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## Zing (Aug 31, 2021)

Great job there!  I really like the colors, truly.

I'm not an FO guy but I have had EOs pool at the top when I soap too cool -- sounds like you soaped hot tho'.  

Just keep watching it.  I had some EOs act strange and ugly -- and over several days it got reabsorbed and became what I had originally planned.


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## TennisGirl (Aug 31, 2021)

FOs will do that. They seem so sweet in the bottle, but add them to your batter and they rice, separate, heat up. They like one soap recipe but throw fits in another. They behave one day and have tantrums the next. Like toddlers and teenagers, fickle creatures who cannot be trusted. Keeping good notes can help you predict what might happen, but any given day...


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## John Harris (Sep 3, 2021)

Hmmm...  I may have gotten to the bottom of the oily-ness problem.  I put in more than double the fragrance oil.  I should have added half a cup, but instead put in a cup and a quarter.  That would explain why the bars were oozing oil, I would think, and the oil had a strong smell of the fragrance.


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## dibbles (Sep 3, 2021)

That was likely your problem. But now I have to ask, why do you not weigh your fragrance oil? All FOs aren't safe at the same usage rate, and a soap.calculator will help you determine the correct percentage by weight.


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## Carly B (Sep 3, 2021)

John Harris said:


> Hmmm...  I may have gotten to the bottom of the oily-ness problem.  I put in more than double the fragrance oil.  I should have added half a cup, but instead put in a cup and a quarter.  That would explain why the bars were oozing oil, I would think, and the oil had a strong smell of the fragrance.




Ack!  How big is your batch?


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## John Harris (Sep 3, 2021)

Carly B said:


> Ack!  How big is your batch?


This batch size was 6 pounds.


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## KiwiMoose (Sep 3, 2021)

John Harris said:


> This batch size was 6 pounds.


Then you should have been using in the vicinity of 90 -120g FO depending on the FO safety guidelines. And as @dibbles stated - it should have been weighed. I doubt it would have been more than 3/4 cup


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