# No Paste Method



## sudszensoaps (Nov 30, 2019)

I found a video by Jackie Thompson showing how to make hot process no paste liquid soap. It seemed pretty straightforward, so I attempted it. During much of the process, my soap didn't look or act like her soap in the video... I considered it an entire failure, and then suddenly it cleared up and I had a clear, slightly yellow/amber colored liquid soap. 75% Coconut oil, 20% olive oil, 5% castor oil.

The pH seems ok, but the Phenol drops show it's too heavy with lye. Can it be corrected?


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## Obsidian (Nov 30, 2019)

Ditch the drops and do a zap test. I can't imagine a diluted liquid soap being lye heavy unless you completely mismeasured something.


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 30, 2019)

sudszensoaps said:


> The pH seems ok, but the Phenol drops show it's too heavy with lye. Can it be corrected?


I haven't tried Jackie's method but I find that if you wait an hour after the cook using _*the high heat glycerin soap technique*_ the soap tests neutral with pheno drops. I'm guessing this is true for this method as well. Give it some time and test again. 

*ETA*: Go to the 5 minute mark on the video linked above to see how to test with pheno drops after the cook.


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## sudszensoaps (Nov 30, 2019)

It's been a few days and the Phenol still shows pink. The pH tests about 8. I still have skin on my hands from using it several times.  It doesn't burn and actually is a pleasant hand soap. 

I know I didn't mismeasure, but I did cut the recipe in half.


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 30, 2019)

sudszensoaps said:


> It's been a few days and the Phenol still shows pink.


Pheno drops are used to test the *paste* for excess lye *before* dilution. My guess is that the amount of dilution water was added at the beginning, which is a method some soapers use, but I have never tried it. 


sudszensoaps said:


> The pH tests about 8.


That suggests that citric acid (or something similar) was used to neutralize any excess lye and to lower the pH.

So I can only assume you are testing *finished* LS where excess lye has been neutralized with the addition of citric acid. In that case, pheno drops serve no useful purpose.

Enjoy your liquid soap! 



sudszensoaps said:


> I found a video by Jackie Thompson showing how to make hot process no paste liquid soap.


If it's not too much trouble @sudszensoaps, please provide a link to the video. I think I need to have a look at the process... maybe even try it...


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## DeeAnna (Nov 30, 2019)

I disagree that the phenol-p test as shown in the video is a valid test. The pH test, however it is done, must be performed _in _a dilute solution, not _on _a concentrated paste. As shown, this test is more a measure of how the water is bound up in the thick soap paste than it is a measure of pH or the presence of excess alkali.

If dropping the indicator solution on a smear of concentrated soap makes a person feel better, there's no harm in it, but understand it's more about magical thinking than it is about valid science.


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 30, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> The pH test, however it is done, must be performed _in _a dilute solution, not _on _a concentrated paste.



Since this is confusing to many Newbies to LS, testing LS for pH vs. testing the paste for neutrality after the paste is saponified are NOT the same thing.

For those LS’ers who may be interested, Faith, (in addition to what DeeAnna wrote above) has a good explanation of *pH Testing of Liquid Soap and Lowering pH* on Alaiyna B.blogspot.com

To be clear, when I, as well as other soapmakers, use phenol drops on our paste as shown in Carrie’s video above, *we are NOT testing the pH but rather for the presence of excess lye. *If the drops are pink to red, then we can take whatever action required until the paste tests clear, i.e. “neutral”.

Phenolphthalein drops are just another tool in our soapmakers tool box. Personally, I find it more reliable than the soap-in-water method or the ZAP test.

I’m not a scientist, but Catherine Failor is a scientist. Here’s what she says in her book, _Making Natural LIQUID SOAPS: Herbal Shower Gels / Conditioning Shampoos / Moisturizing Hand Soaps (1999)_ pages 13-14.

QUOTE: _For the soapmaker, phenolphthalein works as an acid-base indicator turning pink to red in the presence of excess alkali and remaining clear in the presence of excess fatty acids. ... Phenolphthalein isn’t on the “required ingredients” list, but diagnosing and correcting problem soap becomes very difficult without it. _END QUOTE

Also, @sudszensoaps,  I found this on page 14
QUOTE: _Note: If phenolphthalein is added to neutral soap stock, the soap will turn pink... This is caused not by excess alkalinity but by hydrolysis, the splitting up of the soap molecule by water into fatty acids and alkali. Liberated alkalis react with the phenolphthalein: hence, the pink color. _END QUOTE

HTH


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## DeeAnna (Nov 30, 2019)

Zany, you're wrong. And Failor is too. But I'll leave it at that.


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## sudszensoaps (Nov 30, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Pheno drops are used to test the *paste* for excess lye *before* dilution. My guess is that the amount of dilution water was added at the beginning, which is a method some soapers use, but I have never tried it.
> 
> That suggests that citric acid (or something similar) was used to neutralize any excess lye and to lower the pH.
> 
> ...




Here you go:


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 30, 2019)

Oh my goodness! Liquid Soapmaking has come a long way in the 20 years after Catherine Failor first published her book on LS in 1999. I was truly impressed by this method. J. Thompson uses all the innovations I've been privileged to be present for along the way... highlighted in blue:

27  oz Coconut Oil
7.2 oz Olive Oil
1.8 oz Castor
7.1 oz Potassium Hydroxide
1.5 oz Sodium Hydroxide (increases viscosity)
10.3 oz Water
12 oz Glycerin (high heat brings soap to trace faster)
44.6 oz Water (Dilution water)
1.8 oz Potassium Carbonate (buffer; pH adjuster)

And she has carried the process to a whole new level. I can see why Kathy McGinnis of Soaping 101 chooses it as her favorite way of making LS.





  for sharing the video. I can hardly wait to try it! 

_*@sudszensoaps*_ With apologies for the highjack, I'd like to respond to DeeAnna's post


DeeAnna said:


> Zany, you're wrong. And Failor is too. But I'll leave it at that.


No worries, DeeAnna, I'm grateful to you for pushing me to search my files to defend myself. Having done so, allow me to make your argument for you...

_QUOTE: There is actually no difference between having 'excess lye  in your soap' and your soap having too high a pH level as 'excess lye'  would create a high pH level and having too high a pH in soap would be  caused by 'excess lye'. END QUOTE_
Posted by Steve Mushynsky, Owner, SBM and long-time member of the Liquid Soapmaking Group who, like you, often took time to explain the scientific aspects of soap making to the group for which I am also very grateful.

Now, in my defense, Steve also explains why pheno drops are a reliable indicator of excess lye in LS paste. You can read the entire post here:
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/phenolphthalein-use-in-ls.77349/


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## KDP (Dec 2, 2019)

That video shows a lovely soap, however,I like my liquid soap a lot thicker than that.


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## Megan (Dec 3, 2019)

I think I know what I'm trying tonight~

Edit: I think I know what I'm trying once I get my hands on some Potassium Hydroxide~ I had a mind blip.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 3, 2019)

Megan said:


> Edit: I think I know what I'm trying once I get my hands on some Potassium Hydroxide~ I had a mind blip.


Hi Megan, look at the ingredients in blue on the recipe. You also need potassium carbonate which I have and am happy to share. If interested, PM me.


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## Megan (Dec 3, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Hi Megan, look at the ingredients in blue on the recipe. You also need potassium carbonate which I have and am happy to share. If interested, PM me.


Thanks for the heads up! My brain must be off today.  I'll be ordering that too.


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## Carl (Dec 5, 2019)

I'll throw my old Chemistry brain around a bit.
But if I remember correctly, by definition, PH is a measure of the concentration of the Hydrogen ion in an aqueous solution.

So does something that is NOT an aqueous solution really even have a PH?  In this case, your paste.  Can it really even have a PH since it's not an aqueous solution?


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## sudszensoaps (Dec 15, 2019)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Oh my goodness! Liquid Soapmaking has come a long way in the 20 years after Catherine Failor first published her book on LS in 1999. I was truly impressed by this method. J. Thompson uses all the innovations I've been privileged to be present for along the way... highlighted in blue:
> 
> 27  oz Coconut Oil
> 7.2 oz Olive Oil
> ...


Hi Zany in CO - have you tried this method yet? I'm giving it a second go today.


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## Zany_in_CO (Dec 15, 2019)

sudszensoaps said:


> Hi Zany in CO - have you tried this method yet? I'm giving it a second go today.


No, I haven't. Probably won't get to it until after the holidays. How did it go? What do you think of it?


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## Megan (Jan 27, 2020)

I_ finally_ got around to ordering my supplies. Hopefully will get everything by tomorrow. I will update in a separate forum post how it goes.


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