# Understanding how a soap is made by reading its ingredients



## ngian (Mar 18, 2015)

Recently my wife bought me a commercial soap from a company that is claiming to produce organic cosmetics.

I got this soap which has very nice and moisturizing lather and although I'm not very keen in its fragrance, this is how it looks like:







I have been only making CP soaps for a few months and I know nothing much about how M&P and HP works by which it may have been produced. I tried reading its ingredients and many of them seems like unknown words to me:

Aqua (Water), 
Glycerin, 
Sodium Oleate, 
Sodium Stearate, 
Sodium Palmate, 
Sodium Coco-Sulfate, 
Sodium Laurate, 
Sodium Myristate, 
Sorbitol, 
Parfum, 
Sodium Palm Kernelate, 
Arnica Montana Flower Extract,
Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, 
Palm Kernel Acid, 
Etidronic Acid, 
Tetrasodium EDTA, 
Boswellia Carterii Oil, 
Cedrus Atlantica Bark Oil, 
Commiphora Myrrha Oil, 
Foeniculum Vulgare (Fennel) Oil, 
Sodium Chloride, 
Stearic Acid, 
Palm Acid,
Lauric Acid, 
Pentasodium Pentetate, 
Tetrasodium Etidronate, 
Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Oil, 
Santalum Album (Sandalwood) Oil, 
Benzyl Salicylate, 
Hydroxyisohexyl 3- Cyclohexene, 
Carboxaldehyde, 
Coumarin, 
CI 77891, CI 75810, CI 17200, CI 20285, CI 42090


After googling some of these ingredients, I came to a conclusion they use two chelating agents (Etidronic Acid, Tetrasodium EDTA), essential oils and some fragrant organic chemical compounds, that I don't know how safe they are to use.

But what about Stearic, Palm, Palm Kernel and Lauric Acids along with the Oleate, Stearate, Palmate, Coco-Sulfate, Laurate, Palm Kernelate and Myristate Sodiums? Are these produced by the saponification of the Palm/PalmKernel/Coconut oils used, or someone can buy them in a form of liquid or powder, that have previously been chemically extracted from basic oils? And these numbers CI 77891, CI 75810, CI 17200, CI 20285, CI 42090 seems to me that a very high level of chemistry has been put into it as I read that these are coloring ingredients.

Is it a safe soap bar to use in terms of being an organic product, and all the above is just a chemical analysis of a CP/HP/M&P soap product and its natural used ingredients?

By the way this soap costs 7Euro / 100gr.

Nikos


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## DeeAnna (Mar 18, 2015)

Sodium Coco-Sulfate is a non-soap detergent. The fact that glycerin is second on the list and sorbitol is listed lower down suggests this soap might be partly a M&P type of soap.

"...Is it a safe soap bar to use in terms of being an organic product..."

Um, well, in my engineer's opinion, you're asking two questions. 

Is it safe? It's probably a perfectly safe soap to use. Whether ingredients such as tetrasodium EDTA should scare you off is open to debate.

Is it "organic"? I have no idea from just an ingredients list. That depends on the sourcing of ingredients. I can use certified organic coconut oil or "conventional" (not organic) coconut oil -- but a proper INCI ingredients list will not tell me which one. 

"...But what about Stearic, Palm, Palm Kernel and Lauric Acids along with the Oleate, Stearate, Palmate, Coco-Sulfate, Laurate, Palm Kernelate and Myristate Sodiums? Are these produced by the saponification of the Palm/PalmKernel/Coconut oils used, or someone can buy them in a form of liquid or powder, that have previously been chemically extracted from basic oils? And these numbers CI 77891, CI 75810, CI 17200, CI 20285, CI 42090 seems to me that a very high level of chemistry has been put into it as I read that these are coloring ingredients...."

I get the feeling your suspicion of long chemical names is clouding your common sense. This is just an INCI ingredients list using the "what comes out of the soap pot" basis.

The ingredients ending in "ate", not counting the Sodium Coco-Sulfate, can be the result of saponifying fats or they can be specific additives. If I had to guess, they're probably the results of saponification -- it's easier and probably cheaper -- but there's no sure way to know without asking.

"High level of chemistry"???? What do you mean by that? Chemistry is chemistry. To decode the INCI terminology, get a list of ingredients with their INCI and common names. When you do, you will find the ingredients with the "CI" prefix are various colorants.


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## PinkCupcake (Mar 18, 2015)

I don't know what the regulations are like where you live, but in the US, products can be labeled "organic" with no requirements. It's legally a meaningless term. However, "certified organic" means that the ingredients, the manufacturing facility, and the finished product have been inspected by a certifying organization. There are ingredients in that soap that would NOT be considered organic by any standards.


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## Susie (Mar 18, 2015)

Nikos- I have read your post probably a dozen times trying to figure out what you want to know, specifically.  

Are you wanting to know if it is "safe", then it probably is.  It has no worse ingredients than any other bar of "soap" that is available in our stores.  

If you want to know if it is "organic", then not with those ingredients.  

But safe and organic are not the same thing.  You can have perfectly safe products that are not organic.  And you can have organic products that I would not consider safe.

Are you trying to reproduce that soap?  If so, it appears to me that it is MP imbeds in a CP base.  I rather think that all of those ingredients you are hesitant over are in the MP portion.  There are MP bases that have lots fewer ingredients, and ones that you and I would understand more.  You are not stuck using MP that has a mile long ingredient list.


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## Dorymae (Mar 18, 2015)

Well I believe it is a little high priced for a commercial bar of soap. Then again, for a commercial soap that one does not seem half bad. None of the ingredients are particularly scary, not even the EDTA. 

Remember soap is a wash off product, not that you can't be harmed by it , but that it is only in contact with your skin for usually a minute or less. 

I forgot who on the forum first said it but I think it is safer to use that soap than it is to eat McDonalds French Fries.


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## ngian (Mar 18, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> *I get the feeling your suspicion of long chemical names is clouding your common sense.* This is just an INCI ingredients list using the "what comes out of the soap pot" basis.
> ...
> "High level of chemistry"???? What do you mean by that? Chemistry is chemistry. To decode the INCI terminology, get a list of ingredients with their INCI and common names. When you do, you will find the ingredients with the "CI" prefix are various colorants.



You guessed right as I'm ignorant of INCI names ( I had found a catalog after I've posted my initial message) and those names just "scared" me somehow. With "High level of chemistry" phrase I wanted to express that something is out of my knowledge and probably has been created in a chemistry lab under specific conditions.

For the reason that I posted my 1st message in a hurry, DeeAnna and Susie neither of you did figure out what I wanted to ask/know with the "safe" and "organic" terms, nor my English is good  enough to help me express my thoughts.



DeeAnna said:


> The ingredients ending in "ate", not counting the Sodium Coco-Sulfate,   can be the result of saponifying fats or they can be specific additives.   If I had to guess, they're probably the results of saponification --   it's easier and probably cheaper -- but there's no sure way to know   without asking.



My wonder is about the case that they are additives.

To be more specific, I searched for the "Stearic Acid" ingredient and I found out that apart from the fact that it can be found in many animal and vegetable fats and oils, you can purchase it in a powder form that, *as I've read in wikipedia*,  it has been extracted from its origin oil/fat with  hydrolysis. So my wonder is if this powder version is absolutely healthy to use to the wash off product even for a few minutes, and if it has the same "quality" with the Stearic acid taking it from specific oils with the saponification process of CP method .

As I can understand till know, in the M&P method someone can buy these acids solely to *add specific characteristics* to the final product?

Nikos


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## DeeAnna (Mar 18, 2015)

Stearic acid as a stand-alone ingredient will be a separate additive -- the powder you refer to. It won't come from saponified fats -- in that case it would be sodium stearate, not stearic acid. 

Stearic acid is often used as a thickener in lotions, creams, and other bath and body products. It is widely found in many foods, so I'm betting you eat it regularly, whether you know it or not.

In a simplified sense, stearic acid is quite similar to its soapy cousin, sodium stearate. Instead of the sodium to complete the molecule, a hydrogen is added instead. 

I don't understand why there should be a concern whether the stearic acid is created from hydrolyzing a fat or is created with other starting ingredients. When you're done, it's stearic acid.


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## Dorymae (Mar 18, 2015)

There are many chemicals that sound scary but in fact are not. There are many natural things that can hurt you much worse. I understand the fear when you don't know what an ingredient is made of or what it does so I'm going to suggest you spend some time here : http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2009/07/better-crafting-through-chemistry.html

This lady really knows her stuff, some of it sounds a bit technical but keep reading - it does begin to make sense. On the right toward the bottom is a list of common ingredients you can click on to read a bit more about them. Or you can use the search bar at the top. 

Good luck to you.


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## Susie (Mar 18, 2015)

ngian said:


> My wonder is about the case that they are additives.
> 
> To be more specific, I searched for the "Stearic Acid" ingredient and I found out that apart from the fact that it can be found in many animal and vegetable fats and oils, you can purchase it in a powder form that, *as I've read in wikipedia*,  it has been extracted from its origin oil/fat with  hydrolysis. So my wonder is if this powder version is absolutely healthy to use to the wash off product even for a few minutes, and if it has the same "quality" with the Stearic acid taking it from specific oils with the saponification process of CP method .
> 
> ...



Yes, it is safe to use.  

Yes, it will end up with the same quality.

Yes, they can add specific fatty acids to soap bases to give them specific characteristics.

Additives are not necessarily bad.  Some can be wonderful.  I routinely add honey or sugar to my soap to give me more bubbles.   You are doing well by doing your homework.  

Your English is fine.  I just needed more specific questions.


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