# just experimenting, interesting results



## grayceworks

I recently read about someone making liquid soap using the CP method, rather than cooking it. I was intrigued, so I figured, I need to make a new batch of dishsoap anyhow, why not?

I decided to try with PKO instead of CO, also, just to compare against previous batches. 

So, I used my usual 1% superfat that I use when doing LS. 

454g PKO, melted 
110g KOH
100g water
75g glycerin
25g alcohol-free natural coconut flavoring I found at whole foods in the spice aisle. Wanted to see if it sticks or not. Did, just barely. But won't be able to smell it once diluted, I don't think.

Mixed in the container until pudding-consistency, like heavy-trace in CP bar soap. Approximately 5 minutes.

Stopped mixing and watched in fascination as it instantly gelled in front of my eyes! It turned from creamy off-white to completely translucent in seconds. And got very VERY hot. It was already very warm, since I mixed the hot lye in with the hot oils. But this suddenly was too hot to touch the outside of the container!




I got out my thermometer and wanted to see just how hot it was, but could not insert it into the mix as it was suddenly rock-hard! From gel to rock-hard in less than a minute. In the following pic, you can see the dent where I tried to insert the candy thermometer. 

I got out my meat thermometer and was able to use that, temp was over 250F. 

I sat and stared for a about 5 minutes, wondering if I needed to do anything else other than let it do its thing. Then I cleaned up my tools and was rewarded with nice foamy lather.  and my tools hadn't even been in with the stuff that gelled, so I was surprised the batter on them had saponified already. We're less than 10 minutes at this point from the time we dumped the lye-water-glycerin in with oils.  I know using the 50-50 method speeds things up, but I'd never had it go THIS fast before. Wow.

So I took a tiny spoonful of the paste (that's the other little dent in the block of paste) and washed a couple dishes with it. Beautiful lather! And looks like it should be easy to dilute the paste also, as it dissolved readily in the water as I was washing. My hands are a bit dry now, due to the high-cleansing factor, but not as much as my usual CO version. 

It's got what looks like ash forming on top as it is cooling. Almost completely cool now. Aside from that, it's a translucent gold color, and to all indications, is ready to dilute. 10-minute liquid soap. Crazy!

Completely zap-free, doesn't even taste very soapy -- quite bland.

 Too tired to dilute the batch right now, but I'll update tomorrow or the next day when I do. I'm pretty happy with the results of my experiment so far!


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## CaraBou

That's impressive instant gratification -- now I'm intrigued too!


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## Farm2Shower

Liquid soap is next on my list. A lot goes into it, but I'm yearning for a kick but shower gel.


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## Susie

The folks who CP liquid soap mix to  emulsion, then let the mixture/paste sit covered for 2 weeks before dilution.  It will be really interesting to see if this works.  If it does, it will be my new method.  I am glad you were braver than me.


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## grayceworks

Susie said:


> The folks who CP liquid soap mix to emulsion, then let the mixture/paste sit covered for 2 weeks before dilution. It will be really interesting to see if this works. If it does, it will be my new method. I am glad you were braver than me.


 

I really like the 50-50 glycerin method anyhow, it speeds up the cook time on the liquid soap when I HP it. Usually less than half-hour cook time till it's done and zap-free.  I think the reasoning with letting CP sit a couple weeks before diluting is to let it finish saponifying...

I was surprised that it was zap-free in such a short period of time doing it CP. It literally gelled and then went straight to the final stage right before my eyes in seconds! I would not have believed it if I hadn't tested it. That's why I sat there staring at it. I was like, that's it?!? 

And I did end up taking 25g of paste in 25g of water in a little jar to work with me tonight, and during a slow time, I sat there and stirred it up. Diluted fine without being heated. 

Not totally clear, but that's likely a combination of the oil I used plus the SF % I used plus the coconut flavor stuff I used to scent it.  

I marked SF as 1% in soap-calc, but I didn't remember to check beforehand whether my KOH was 90% or 99% so I didn't check the 90% box. And then when I was actually measuring it, I forgot to check again, so it is what it is. lol  It's entirely possible I'm at a bit more than 1% SF.  However it does appear to be clearing a bit, so it may end up being transparent after all, once I let it sit a couple weeks. 

I don't mind if it doesn't clear up though, as I usually add a bit of shimmer to it anyhow. 

Oh! Something I noticed as I was diluting this little bit -- the coconut scent is there, more than it is in the paste. Not a lot, and not quite as coconut-y as before soaping, but definitely there. 

I might try that stuff in some other soaps and stuff. It's Frontier brand, alcohol-free, all natural flavors mixed in sunflower oil and with dried coconut in it. Smells wonderful. I love the smell of coconut and coconut oil. 


I think I will try this experiment with a multi-oil soap and/or a slower-moving oil, and see what happens.


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## Susie

I don't really care if my soap is clear or not.  I just don't like it when the fats rise to the top of the soap pump.  So, I just bought one of those oil separating cups you use to make gravy with, and I will just cycle the soap through that and have one very moisturizing bottle.  

I am fighting the urge to go try that method today, but I have almost a gallon of liquid soap made already.  So, it is just going to have to go into my binder and wait.:-(


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## neeners

I've been wanting to try to find KOH since I've been thinking about trying a LS, but after reading this, I REALLY want to try to find KOH.  wonder if it will work this fast with CO?


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## grayceworks

neeners said:


> I've been wanting to try to find KOH since I've been thinking about trying a LS, but after reading this, I REALLY want to try to find KOH.  wonder if it will work this fast with CO?



I got mine off of amazon, from Essential Depot. Which now that I read the description, is 90% pure, so my soap has a 10.9% lye discount. Which is why it is a bit cloudy, although not as cloudy today as last night. And not overly drying either. There's no oil rising to the top, which is good. 

I would think CO would go about as fast...


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## new12soap

That is really interesting!

Just curious, tho, why did you use so little liquid (water + glycerin)? I was always under the impression that KOH should use 3x as much liquid for a 25% solution or so...?

Glad it worked for you, I may have to give this a try!


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## DeeAnna

"...KOH should use 3x as much liquid for a 25% solution or so..."

If one is doing HP, yes, I can see using a 25% lye solution. But Grayce was trying a CP method, and a 38% lye solution is within the realm of reason for CP. 

For some reason I thought when I was first learning about soft and liquid soaps that KOH was less soluble in water than NaOH. Not sure why I thought that. It turns out that about 112 g KOH will dissolve in 100 g water at room temp. Only 109 g NaOH will dissolve in 100 g water at room temp. So a 33% or 40% or even 50% solution of KOH is do-able, just like NaOH.


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## neeners

grayceworks said:


> I got mine off of amazon, from Essential Depot. Which now that I read the description, is 90% pure, so my soap has a 10.9% lye discount. Which is why it is a bit cloudy, although not as cloudy today as last night. And not overly drying either. There's no oil rising to the top, which is good.
> 
> I would think CO would go about as fast...




 Thanks, but I live in the Caribbean....can't be shipping that stuff to here.....


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## grayceworks

Well, I'm happy to say that it diluted nicely, and made a nice clear golden liquid soap, with no oil floating even though it was done at almost 11%SF instead of 1%, due to me forgetting which KOH type I had.  Additionally, there is the slightest hint of coconut scent from that natural coconut flavoring I was testing, so it didn't fade completely like I thought it would. 

For approx 600g paste, I used approx 1000g - 1100g distilled water to dilute, before it stopped forming a skin on top. Some evaporated due to heating as I was diluting, but finished diluted weight ended up at 1600g when all was said and done. 

(Initially the paste was 700g, but I set aside 100g of it for various experiments)

Lathers nicely, even at only 1 week, and is not as drying as the Coconut oil soap I made last time, probably due to the extra SF. 

I expect the lather will improve further as it ages a couple more weeks. Just need to thicken this up a tad, and it along with my latest batch of laundry powder will be off to my friend's animal rescue -- they always need cleaning and laundry stuff!!!

----
BTW, Susie, did I read that you're a new moderator over on the yahoo group? Wonderful! I love to read over there for new ideas and tips.


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## Tienne

I haven't tried making liquid soap yet, but I do have some KOH ready for when I have the time and courage to try and this sounds like fun! Thanks for the recipe and the tutorial! Grayceworks, may I ask, what do you use to add shimmer?


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## CaraBou

I'm in the same ready-to-dive-but-still-floating boat that Tienne is in.  So thanks for sharing your experience.  My question is on superfatting.  I thought SF levels were a lot lower in LS than CP (but I'm not really sure).  What is a typical level?  I would expect 11% in CP to inhibit the lather and possibly feel, well, oily.  But for now anyway it seems like at least the lather may not be a problem for you. Are there any drawbacks for high SF in LS, or is it a matter of getting the consistency and clarity you want?


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## Susie

Thank you Gracey!  I am excited to be able to help over there!  

Superfat in LS is often a controversial subject.  I have superfatted at as high as 7%(math error much like Gracey's), and the soap functioned fine.  No oily feel whatsoever.  It did have a big cloudy top to the soap(excess oils), but the bottom was fine.  We used it all up.  There was no noticeable difference in lather regardless of clarity.

I try to stick with 0-3% SF these days, as it just works better for me.  0% is for laundry, and 3% is for anything that touches my skin.  I have yet to have to neutralize any of it since I started using the SBM calculator for liquid and cream soaps.(I use that one because I can use both NaOH and KOH, and I tend to use that a lot.)  My pH is consistently between 8.5-10 depending on when I check it.  If I check the paste while still cooking, it tends to be a bit higher.  If I let it sit overnight, it tends to be lower.  By the time I get done diluting, it hits around 8.5-9 consistently.  As long as you use a reputable lye calculator, and make sure you put in the data correctly, you should have a good outcome.


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## grayceworks

Tienne said:


> I haven't tried making liquid soap yet, but I do have some KOH ready for when I have the time and courage to try and this sounds like fun! Thanks for the recipe and the tutorial! Grayceworks, may I ask, what do you use to add shimmer?



I used this merlot shimmer mica sample I got in with a supply order. I think from WSP? It was a sample pack of several shimmer micas and a couple lip-safe ones. 

I didn't add any to this batch, since it's going to be just cleaning soap, not bath or hand soap. But it's tricky. I mixed it in with one batch while it cooked. Stayed suspended and shimmery all the way thru the cook. Was fine until I diluted it, then it all sank to the bottom. Hmm. I stirred it up, added the salt I was using for thickener, and then it all stayed suspended just fine, 3 months and counting... 

BUT, when I was playing around with a bottle from that batch, by adding half of that and half from THIS PKO batch, the two soaps mixed fine, however it appears that salt will not thicken PKO, same as it won't thicken CO. lol. 

And therefore when the PKO soap mixed with the shimmery soap, all the mica once again settled out since it got thinned out again. 

Soooo... the soap has to be thickened enough to hold the mica in suspension if you use that. WSP sells a self-suspending pearlizer, but it has SLS and stuff in it. 

I do have some crothix though (aka bubble-wash thickener at WSP), that I'm going to try with the PKO soap, and see if that works, since the salt doesn't.

I have to make it thick for dishsoap, otherwise everyone squirts wayyyyyy too much in! lol



CaraBou said:


> I'm in the same ready-to-dive-but-still-floating boat that Tienne is in.  So thanks for sharing your experience.  My question is on superfatting.  I thought SF levels were a lot lower in LS than CP (but I'm not really sure).  What is a typical level?  I would expect 11% in CP to inhibit the lather and possibly feel, well, oily.  But for now anyway it seems like at least the lather may not be a problem for you. Are there any drawbacks for high SF in LS, or is it a matter of getting the consistency and clarity you want?



Yes, I normally don't go above 3% SF on my hand soaps and 0.5%-1% on my cleaning soaps. I was actually aiming for 1% on this, but didn't check the 90% KOH box on soapcalc. Whoops.   BUT, I think due to the nature of the oil I used, and maybe the method? even after diluting, there's no free oil floating around, it lathers well, AND isn't as drying as I expected. I don't think it would be the same with every recipe though. I think with recipes that don't normally have a lot of lather to begin with, having excess SF might be an issue. Otherwise, yeah, it's a matter of clarity and cosmetics. 




Susie said:


> Superfat in LS is often a controversial subject.  I have superfatted at as high as 7%(math error much like Gracey's), and the soap functioned fine.  No oily feel whatsoever.  It did have a big cloudy top to the soap(excess oils), but the bottom was fine.  We used it all up.  There was no noticeable difference in lather regardless of clarity.
> 
> I try to stick with 0-3% SF these days, as it just works better for me.  0% is for laundry, and 3% is for anything that touches my skin.  I have yet to have to neutralize any of it since I started using the SBM calculator for liquid and cream soaps.(I use that one because I can use both NaOH and KOH, and I tend to use that a lot.)



I know they just recently decided to put some beginner's recipes over there with 3% SF so that they didn't have to worry about neutralizing their LS, since there would be no lye excess. Honestly, I've done it that way since my first batch, because well... mainly I was curious... and because I didn't have any borax... and when it worked fine, then I figured why change? It's easier anyhow, beginner or not, with less ingredients, less time and frustration, less math!!! 

I like that calculator too, when I'm tweaking my shaving soap and creamy soap-scrub recipes, for the same reason.


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## Tienne

Oy, I see it's a little more complicated getting a shimmery soap than just adding something sparkly! LOL  Thank you so much for the detailed explanations, Graceworks. It really helps me understand the woes and whys of LS making. Thank you!


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## grayceworks

Update:  It's reproduceable. 

Just tried again, this time with Coconut oil instead of PKO. 
And the right amount of SF this time lol

Used 
454g CO
128g water
110g glycerin
128g KOH (90% pure)
35g blend of lemon and litsea EO's. 

This took a bit longer than the PKO to get moving, but once it started, everything went the same. 

From start to finish-
From adding the lye-glycerin-water to the oil until stick-blended to a light almost pudding consistency - blending a few minutes, took a break to wash up some soaping equipment, then continued blending -- 10 minutes
Watched it turn orange and translucent jelly-like. Minor separation that stirred back together with a spatula. Got very hot. Too hot to touch sides of plastic container for any length of time.  -- 2 minutes
From stirring back together until transparent thick sticky taffy stage while I was stirring-- less than a minute
From taffy stage to a hard chunk of transparent paste - approx 2 minutes. 

Total: 15 minutes, no cooking other than what it did all by itself.

Tomorrow I'll dump it in the crock-pot with water and start diluting.

UPDATE ON PREVIOUS BATCH:
This was the one with almost 11% SF due to my calculation error. I left it settle for 2wks after dilution. During this time, a thin layer of whitish unsaponifiables settled to the bottom, and the soap became crystal clear. A very tiny amount of oil floated up, less than a tablespoon out of 1600g of diluted soap. 

I tested a bit of it, good lather, and not at all drying, just very thin, which in my house, means it will get used 3x's as fast as it should LOL

 Oh! I got a new toy, an electronic ph meter that I ordered to make my lotion-making easier, and I decided on a whim to check the ph of the diluted soap. Incidentally, my tap water is 5.2 on this meter. And my liquid PKO soap measured 8.7, which surprised me. 

I decided to thicken with crothix after I got rid of the unsaponified stuff at the bottom. I also added lemon EO. No longer crystal clear, but looks like watery lemon custard. Close enough. 

I am definitely happy with the results so far. Next up: mixed oils recipe.


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## Susie

*Mutters to self*"I have too much soap made already, I even have extra paste in the fridge.  I DO NOT need to make soap.  I WILL NOT make more soap until this is gone!"* #unhappySoaper.


Can you let me know about how much water it took to dilute?


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## DeeAnna

Um ... perks up ears ... a FB page with Susie as mod? Do tell which one it is, please? Curious minds wish to know....


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## Susie

No, not FB, Yahoo Liquidsoapers Group. 

And I am just a mod, not anything special.  Some most excellent recipes in the files there, though.  And super smart people I learn lots from every day.  I learned more from those people about making liquid soap than I learned from every other source all added together.

ETA-No longer a mod there, but it is still a most excellent source of recipes!


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## grayceworks

Susie said:


> *Mutters to self*"I have too much soap made already, I even have extra paste in the fridge.  I DO NOT need to make soap.  I WILL NOT make more soap until this is gone!"* #unhappySoaper.
> 
> 
> Can you let me know about how much water it took to dilute?



Yeah, I just realized I have to get more jugs to store the diluted soap in. I thought I had another one, but can't find it. Of course it will appear in plain sight once I've ordered more lol. So it will be a few days before diluting.

I did test a pinch of the paste though, easy because it's softer than the PKO paste was, and it's very nice, squeaky clean lemon scented.  Would definitely be drying to use all the time, but I made it for cleaning, not for hand-washing. 

Has anyone ever used carbomer to thicken LS? I had some pre-neutralized carbomer that I've been playing with in one of my lotions, and got to thinking, hmm. Carbomer gets neutralized with alkali, like lye... in order to make a thicker gel-like consistency. Like how hand-sanitizer is... 

 So I ordered some regular non-neutralized carbomer, and am thinking that it might make a nice thick soap gel if added to the alkaline soap... any thoughts on whether this would work or not?

 I like the idea of carbomer as opposed to other chemical thickeners because it's been shown to do absolutely nothing but thicken stuff, without polyvinyl whatevers, and without the gloopiness of xanthan or guar gums...


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## DeeAnna

"...No, not FB, Yahoo Liquidsoapers Group...."

Ah! I appreciate the clarification. 

That's even better -- I've about given up on FB soaping groups. Too much drama, too many downright weird questions, and near impossible to find the info in useful posts once they've scrolled out of sight. Ugh.

I'm learning a lot from you and Grayce about LS. Thank you!


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## DeeAnna

So, Grayce, I've read your posts several times, and I'm seeing these as the key elements to your CP liquid soaping method:

Dissolve the KOH in about the same weight of water.
Add enough glycerin to the KOH-water solution to make a 35% to 40% KOH solution.
Add the lye solution to the oils.
Stick blend to light trace. 
Turn your back on the soap pot and let it do it's thing.

Am I missing anything important?


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## PrairieLights

Adding the e/o's. At what point are y'all adding them in this CP process? I have another Q though - Can I make a batch, let it cure for a week or two, then reheat and add the e/o's??? Reheat and add booster oils???


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## cmzaha

@Grayce if you try the carbomer for thickening can you update your results. I hate using cellulose and would love to try something different


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## Susie

PrairieLights said:


> Adding the e/o's. At what point are y'all adding them in this CP process? I have another Q though - Can I make a batch, let it cure for a week or two, then reheat and add the e/o's??? Reheat and add booster oils???



In liquid soapmaking, regardless of method, you add FOs and EOs at the tail end of dilution once your soap has cooled below the flashpoint of the FO or EO.  This prevents loss of scent as well as limiting "what the heck happened?" factors.


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## Susie

DeeAnna said:


> "...No, not FB, Yahoo Liquidsoapers Group...."
> 
> Ah! I appreciate the clarification.
> 
> That's even better -- I've about given up on FB soaping groups. Too much drama, too many downright weird questions, and near impossible to find the info in useful posts once they've scrolled out of sight. Ugh.
> 
> I'm learning a lot from you and Grayce about LS. Thank you!



I have to be honest here, Yahoo Groups are not very user friendly.  But, the file section, the fact that you get everything in an email, and the overwhelming knowledge, friendliness, and helpfulness of those folks over there SO make up for the Yahoo Group thing.


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## DeeAnna

Prairie -- I have been adding EOs after dilution. Sometimes I've added EOs to each bottle, so I can fragrance each one differently. No need to heat -- in fact, I'd rather not heat so the scent stays in the soap rather than end up in the air. Can't speak to adding extra oils -- no experience with that.

Susie -- Thank you for the caution. I have been a member of several Yahoo groups for some years, so I'm pretty used to the system. I'm looking forward to enjoying the LS group!


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## grayceworks

DeeAnna said:


> So, Grayce, I've read your posts several times, and I'm seeing these as the key elements to your CP liquid soaping method:
> 
> Dissolve the KOH in about the same weight of water.
> Add enough glycerin to the KOH-water solution to make a 35% to 40% KOH solution.
> Add the lye solution to the oils.
> Stick blend to light trace.
> Turn your back on the soap pot and let it do it's thing.
> 
> Am I missing anything important?



DeeAnna, yes, that's pretty much it. I use roughly equal water to the KOH, and I have soapcalc set at 38% so I base my total liquid amount off of that, give or take a bit. Ummm, that's kindof a beginning number for me to estimate with.. Sometimes I fiddle the water and glycerin numbers to get easy to remember numbers instead of weird amounts, a few grams up or down on water and glycerin won't make a noticeable difference in this really. I kinda just like my glycerin to be around 90-ish% of the water amount. I've done exact 50-50 splits between water and glycerin before when doing HP liquid soap, but I use more water in that to begin with. The water in this is really reduced because I'm not cooking it. But although I 'know' I can use a smidge less water than KOH, I'd rather use a smidge more instead lol. 

And then dump the paste in the crockpot on low with an equal amount of water overnight to start diluting. In the morning, see if that was enough water, or add  a couple ounces at a time and stir for a few minutes, until it's all dissolved and no skin forms. Took me about 25 minutes to finish the diluting when I woke up that morning. 

Now, I knew PKO and CO tended to move quick and hot in bar soap, so that's what I tried first for this experiment, and will be doing a mixed oil recipe today and update with results. 

It's all still best after a couple weeks sitting once diluted, but if this whole experiment keeps living up to expectations, it will keep me from sitting over the crockpot for hours lol. 






PrairieLights said:


> Adding the e/o's. At what point are y'all adding them in this CP process? I have another Q though - Can I make a batch, let it cure for a week or two, then reheat and add the e/o's??? Reheat and add booster oils???




Normally I add them at the end of the dilution process. Since this was an experiment, I tried adding them the same as I would for CP bar soap, to see what would happen. Which in retrospect I did not use enough, as I based it on paste weight and not diluted weight, so I'm still going to have to add more after diluting.

 But the paste smells lovely lol. Was about the same as if CP bar soap had gelled, some scent loss in saponification, but not all, since it wasn't cooked on heat for hours. 




cmzaha said:


> @Grayce if you try the carbomer for thickening can you update your results. I hate using cellulose and would love to try something different



Absolutely! I'll probably dilute this batch on Monday night, when I'm off work. Also, I have no idea how accurate my ph meter is, I just got the cheap 12.00 one from amazon, and haven't checked the calibration yet, but seems about right so far with the stuff I've been playing around with. It's small, convenient, and fun. If it proves accurate, I'll let you know.


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## DeeAnna

Cool! Thanks, Grayce!


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## grayceworks

Ok, so experiment number 3-

I decided to try a totally new recipe that I've been thinking about. It's all liquid oils, so that obviously affects the hardness of the finished paste -- this is definitely the softest paste of the three. The PKO, which is rock-hard at room temp also made a hard paste. The CO, which is usually mushy-half-melted at room temp here made a soft paste like a thick salve. And this recipe, with all liquid oils, has turned out about like orange marmalade, in color and hardness. Thick enough that if it was CP bar soap, you could texture the top and it would keep its shape, probably will be a bit firmer as it cools, but it's still VERY hot right now. 

But it is soap! The utensils got very sudsy as I washed them. No zap. 

This one heated up and thickened faster than the other two initially, but it turned to applesauce as it got hotter, and I ended up just stirring it for about 10 minutes with a spoon until it passed that phase and was smooth again. Was opaque orange at that point, like butterscotch pudding, then in another 2 minutes with one or two more stirs with the spoon, had reached transparent orange jelly looking paste that could hold peaks. Still too hot to comfortably hold the outside of the plastic container, but it's only been a few minutes. 

Anyhow, here's pics of the diluted PKO soap. It's clear, but the container is frosted.





And the CO paste (left) and the new paste from today (right). You can see how clear the paste is where I pushed some up on the side of the container.




Today's recipe- 3% SF
30% sunflower
25% camelina
25% castor
15% avocado
5% neem

Equal parts lye and water. Glycerin at 90% of the water amount.
Since I've added the EO's with the oils as I would in CP bar soap, like I did in the past two experiments, I did so again, this time at the correct amount for what I anticipate the diluted soap to be.

Measuring everything out - 20 min. 
Mixing the lye-water and adding the glycerin - 2 minutes.
Mixing the lye into the oils - 1 minute before it started to emulsify, spoon stirred.
Stick-blending - less than 1 minute before it was too thick to blend, was like HP bar soap right before you'd stuff it into a mold. 
Letting it sit while I put stuff away - 2 minutes.
Noticed it had reached the applesauce stage. The PKO and CO skipped right past that. Hand-stirred on and off for 10 minutes until smooth again. Like pudding.
Reached transparent jelly-like stage - 2 minutes. Stirred a couple times, paste holds its form. No zap. 
Washed utensils, 10 minutes lol. Nice and sudsy. Yay! Probably still too 'fresh' to be using today though. I imagine this is similar to CP soap, safe to use, but will get milder as it sits. 
But I had to try a bit! 

So, the actual time spent from adding the lye to the oils, until it was paste, was about 16 minutes. I can deal with that. 

It took me longer to write this post than it took to make the soap!


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## PrairieLights

Thank you Susie and Grayceworks!!! I heard that if I add e/o's once they are cooled and cured, the oils with just sit in the soap. I prefer to make a large batch (and did! yay! now my son wants to take over and make the liquid soap himself!) but want to divide and scent differently. So thank you! I will do this.
I have another Q - Why diluting to the point of needing to thicken back up??? I just diluted to the point of desired consistency. I cannot find an answer elsewhere to thinning down then thickening back up - so I ask you. *hugs*!
L


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## Susie

The consistency does not bother me.  I put just enough water to melt the chunks of soap.  I also add my EOs while the soap is still warm, just not hot.


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## grayceworks

PrairieLights said:


> Thank you Susie and Grayceworks!!! I heard that if I add e/o's once they are cooled and cured, the oils with just sit in the soap. I prefer to make a large batch (and did! yay! now my son wants to take over and make the liquid soap himself!) but want to divide and scent differently. So thank you! I will do this.
> I have another Q - Why diluting to the point of needing to thicken back up??? I just diluted to the point of desired consistency. I cannot find an answer elsewhere to thinning down then thickening back up - so I ask you. *hugs*!
> L



Some EO's will just sit there afterwards, helps if you add them while the soap is warm. Most mix in ok though. 

Some types of liquid soap require more dilution than others to actually dissolve and stop forming that icky skin on top. Some are well diluted while still kinda viscous, but some get very watery by the time they dilute enough. And even with the thicker ones, it's often thinner than most people are used to. One side effect of using the Failor method and having to neutralize with the borax is that the borax does add a tiny bit of that thickness back in... not a lot though. Some recipes just need a sprinkle of salt to become almost a gel, while others, like coconut and pko don't thicken at all with salt and also tend to be the watery ones, therefore if you don't want hubby or kids to use half a bottle in one sink of dishes, you thicken it up... or put it in a pump or foamer. LOL


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## grayceworks

Oh! I like my newest batch. I haven't diluted yet, waiting on my jugs to get here... but I took a pinch of it and washed my hair with it -- I can sorta smell the neem while it's wet, but I can with the bar soap too, so that's not a big deal. The tea tree and jasmine work well enough to offset that. But my hair is very shiny and soft! Better than my shampoo bar. Curls are bouncy too. A bit frizzy, but that's just the local humidity. So I'm pretty happy with it. I wish I could figure out the blend of EO's used in this one liquid soap I found online. It smells just like this shampoo I used to use that smelled so fresh and nice and green. I want to make my soap smell like that lol.


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## grayceworks

Finally felt up to diluting one of these batches, decided to dilute experiment number 3. 

It was still the same transparent jelly-like consistency as it was when I first made it. I started with 1/2 the paste weight of 770g in water, so 385g water. Didnt heat anything up, just added room temp water to room temp paste, stirred it a bit, let it sit overnight. Next morning, it was incorporated and was thick goo like rubber cement. Added another 385g and left it sit with lid on for a few hours. Mixed in faster this time. Still had some large clumps. Added 385g water. Let sit for a couple hours. Now at a 1.5:1 wateraste ratio, but still some stubborn clumps and skin forming. Added another 50g and then a while later another 50g for a total of 1255g water, about a 1.63:1 final wateraste ratio, and let it sit for 2hrs, stirred, didn't find any more clumps, made a nice consistency clear amber liquid, I don't think I'll need to thicken it at all. Pretty happy with this experiment! 

Experiment number 2, I will see if it will dilute at room temp or not, it might -- it's almost as soft as this one. 



grayceworks said:


> Ok, so experiment number 3-
> 
> I decided to try a totally new recipe that I've been thinking about. It's all liquid oils, so that obviously affects the hardness of the finished paste -- this is definitely the softest paste of the three. The PKO, which is rock-hard at room temp also made a hard paste. The CO, which is usually mushy-half-melted at room temp here made a soft paste like a thick salve. And this recipe, with all liquid oils, has turned out about like orange marmalade, in color and hardness. Thick enough that if it was CP bar soap, you could texture the top and it would keep its shape, probably will be a bit firmer as it cools, but it's still VERY hot right now.
> 
> But it is soap! The utensils got very sudsy as I washed them. No zap.
> 
> This one heated up and thickened faster than the other two initially, but it turned to applesauce as it got hotter, and I ended up just stirring it for about 10 minutes with a spoon until it passed that phase and was smooth again. Was opaque orange at that point, like butterscotch pudding, then in another 2 minutes with one or two more stirs with the spoon, had reached transparent orange jelly looking paste that could hold peaks. Still too hot to comfortably hold the outside of the plastic container, but it's only been a few minutes.
> 
> Anyhow, here's pics of the diluted PKO soap. It's clear, but the container is frosted.
> View attachment 8061
> 
> 
> 
> And the CO paste (left) and the new paste from today (right). You can see how clear the paste is where I pushed some up on the side of the container.
> View attachment 8062
> 
> 
> 
> Today's recipe- 3% SF
> 30% sunflower
> 25% camelina
> 25% castor
> 15% avocado
> 5% neem
> 
> Equal parts lye and water. Glycerin at 90% of the water amount.
> Since I've added the EO's with the oils as I would in CP bar soap, like I did in the past two experiments, I did so again, this time at the correct amount for what I anticipate the diluted soap to be.
> 
> Measuring everything out - 20 min.
> Mixing the lye-water and adding the glycerin - 2 minutes.
> Mixing the lye into the oils - 1 minute before it started to emulsify, spoon stirred.
> Stick-blending - less than 1 minute before it was too thick to blend, was like HP bar soap right before you'd stuff it into a mold.
> Letting it sit while I put stuff away - 2 minutes.
> Noticed it had reached the applesauce stage. The PKO and CO skipped right past that. Hand-stirred on and off for 10 minutes until smooth again. Like pudding.
> Reached transparent jelly-like stage - 2 minutes. Stirred a couple times, paste holds its form. No zap.
> Washed utensils, 10 minutes lol. Nice and sudsy. Yay! Probably still too 'fresh' to be using today though. I imagine this is similar to CP soap, safe to use, but will get milder as it sits.
> But I had to try a bit!
> 
> So, the actual time spent from adding the lye to the oils, until it was paste, was about 16 minutes. I can deal with that.
> 
> It took me longer to write this post than it took to make the soap!


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## grayceworks

Experiment 2 -- the 100% CO one, was a  bit too sticky to dilute at RT, it was stuck like taffy in the container! I got it scooped into the crockpot, 745g paste with 745g water, turned it on low, went to bed. Was about half diluted in the morning. Added another 350g the next day, lost maybe 50g -60g to evaporation, ended up with 1775g diluted soap.  It diluted exactly as well as if I'd cooked the initial paste. I really think unless I'm doing something special like shaving soap, I'm going to do all my LS by this method. No more slaving over the crockpot, will only need it for overnight diluting, which pretty much needs no supervision. I'm really, really happy with this experiment.


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## FGOriold

This sounds great - glad you found a method that works so well for you.  Another time saver for you - if you are using part water and part glycerin, as long as you use enough water to fully dissolve your lye (I like a 1:1.1 ratio of lye:water for this), you can add your glycerin directly to your oils when heating your oils instead of with your lye water, then proceed as normal.


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## neeners

Grayce. You're my hero. I'm wanting to try LS, but didn't want to deal with the crockpot, and now...seems like I don't really need one! thank you thank you thank you!!!!


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## cm4bleenmb

Today I was CP'ing the coffee soap my step-son requested and as long as I had my stuff out, I figured I might as well try something new . . .

I had this thread bookmarked, so I went to Soapcalc, pretty much just punched in a random mix of oils I had, and called it a recipe. I used my crockpot to melt my oils, so I just added the lye water/glycerin mix to that, SB'ed until it was thick--it kind of looked like the pics I've seen of lanolin at this point--unplugged the crockpot and sat it in my craft room. 

I'll check on it tomorrow to see if it turned out okay and play with diluting it. So happy I stumbled across this thread. Blessings grayceworks!


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## Ni518079

Thank you so much for the recipe, I've been wanting to try liquid soup for a while. I am having a bit of trouble though. As the post count indicates I am a relative newbie. I triple checked my scale and ingredients. I decided to try the 100% CO recipe. I added the warm lye mixture to the warm oils in a warm crock pot base. Was very slow to get started then suddenly seized up. Didn't change color at all but got very thick. Like white petroleum jelly. Decided to turn on the crock pot and cook it for a little bit. After about an hour the PH was still very high. Decided to try and 200ml of distiller water and cook it and salvage what I can even if I have to adjust the PH later. It is soap and it lathers but the ph is still around 11 after another hour in the pot on high. I think I am just going to keep it hot overnight , then dilute and adjust the PH if I need to...unless there is another suggestion?

Edit: cooked it up and diluted it. Ph was almost neutral, so I was worried for nothing. Will see what happens after it sits overnight and then doctor it up tomorrow to hopefully make it smell like rose jam.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I would suggest that your ph testing method is flawed  - no soap is neutral, it will always be alkaline. The best way (cost, ease of use, and effectiveness) is the zap test


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## hmlove1218

I'd say it's in the normal pH range of soap, which is typically 8-12. I would suggest throwing away those strips, though, and doing a simple zap test to test it for safety. It'll be more accurate and more reliable. Not to mention it's free


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## Ni518079

I'm sorry I didn't mean to say it was actually neutral but no zap and with a ph strip after dilution reads close to my tap water. Also phenolphthalein has no reaction and stays clear.


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## Susie

Again, no soap's pH is close to that of water.  No matter what the pheno drops say.  Just do a zap test for safety.


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