# New needs help with a shaving soap recipe?



## spacetransient (Dec 23, 2014)

Thanks for all who helped me in the last newbie thread: "Newbie ready to mix!"- where I had already picked out a recipe of dubious efficacy.

Main points of feedback were:
1) Are you sure you want _this_ recipe?- it's not really a shaving soap!
2) Wouldn't it be better to start with something simpler anyway?

So with that out of the way I would like to make a new (newbie) introduction to the thoughtful members who took their time to read and post for me then:
For the purposes of this forum, this is who I am- the pictures below tell the story: :shh:

As some of the wet shavers might notice- I modified/made a couple of things here. Anything can be improved upon but sometimes they are not worth the effort. Well I know. Trying to make a better soap may turn out to be an example...

This soap recipe is currently the best I have tried- because I am cheap and refuse to spend over $3 and ounce. Needed encouragement for that. It's obviously too complex for me.

What I like about this shave soap:
Excellent cushion: 95%
Very good conditioning: 90%
Good slip: 85%
Vegan (I'll end up with extra to gift away to anyone who wants it)

What could be improved:
Slip
Maybe too dense a lather? Have I adapted to inferior more "soapy" soaps?
Any soap I buy or make must melt or cram into my mug!! No exceptions!!!
I did not put in my favorite scent. 

I am here for the sole purpose of making my own shaving soap.  I will only practice on shaving soaps and if necessary I am willing to do a dozen or more batches to get it right or call it quits!!:-(

Songwinds thread must be the longest, most respected thread of it's kind in current internet history. I salute him and all who participated. 

Would a stearic acid/coconut oil/KOH/glycerin recipe be a good place to begin or do others have another tweak or recommendation I should consider? 

Thanks for listening! Your comments are most welcome!!


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## JustBeachy (Dec 23, 2014)

Welcome back for round two. I'm thinking developing a great shaving soap might be more than a 12 round fight.   I don't claim to be an expert on shaving soap, and in all honesty, not really sure I care to be. But I do like shaving with the ones I've made and I love the experimentation. Here's some points from my experiments so far. Take them for what they're worth.

I use a sodium and potassium hydroxide blend, like your brand is showing. I like the harder puck. 
I listen to others, but try not to discount ingredients because a portion of the soapers believe they shouldn't be part of a good soap. For example:

Lots don't want butter in the soap, due to it supposedly disrupting lather. I use Shea in the recipe I like the best for it's "after the shave" feel on my face. It lathers like a dream. I notice the one you have posted has three butters. haha

I've played with the glycerin levels, when I add them as well as substituting clays. I'm leaning towards actually liking the clays better at this point. Hard to explain, but they both provide slip, while the clay seems to give me more of a "controlled slip".  

Latest addition to my experiments has been the substitution of coconut milk for 60% of the liquid.  At two weeks, I like the soap a lot, but I'd like to see it at 4 and 6 weeks before I make a final decision. 


Thoughts on the soap you have pictured. The first thoughts I had were, why three different butters, why all the different oils. Are they creating a superfatting mixture?  The dock and maca root is an interesting addition.  I'm looking forward to hearing your results.

Welcome to the madness.


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## Susie (Dec 24, 2014)

Welcome to the madness, indeed!  While I don't make shaving soap, I do know when someone has the same signs of addiction as I do.  So, don't limit yourself to a dozen batches, or just one type of soap.  You will always be thinking..."what if".... and will be off to the computer to run a recipe through a calculator.  And buying different oils each time you see something new.  Then you have to test that....and it goes on and on in a vicious cycle.  That is the beauty of soapmaking, there is always something new to try.

Welcome to the addiction!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 24, 2014)

If it has to be soft enough to smoosh, then you might want to have more KOH than NaOH - at 50/50 I find it quite hard already, so going more the other way might be more to your liking. 

If you like the butters, I would start off with a mix of the stearic, co and then a butter with a mix of KOH and NaOH.


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## LBussy (Dec 24, 2014)

That soap's ingredient list is ... well let's just say not correct.  I already went several rounds with the "soaper's" fanboys where I proved that 1) he lies and 2) fanboys don't care.  So, if you like that, great, just don't use the ingredients list as a model.

If you shave with a straight especially, forget the lather p0rn.  You need more water added.  Go for stiff peaks, then add water a little at a time till you get yogurt.  That will give you the slip you want provided the soap is capable.  Far too many people use far too little water to be comfortable.

I don't know what your recipe is/was but I agree with the use of butters to 10%.  Glycerin to about 14% is where I am.  Clay has no place in my soap and I've explained my reasons previously.  If glycerin is not slippery enough you need to add more water to the lather.

On the keeping it simple side, I use 100% KOH, it "smooshes" very well, and with my process I can mold it if desired (but I prefer tubs).



> Would a stearic acid/coconut oil/KOH/glycerin recipe be a good place to begin or do others have another tweak or recommendation I should consider?


I recommend something like:


45% Stearic Acid
25% Coconut Oil
20% Beef Tallow
10% butters (shea, lanolin, whatever you like)

The difference between a straight SA/CO soap and one with some tallow is night and day in my experience.  I almost feel sorry for people who choose to be vegan because the soap is just better with tallow.


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## spacetransient (Dec 24, 2014)

JustBeachy said:


> Welcome back for round two. I'm thinking developing a great shaving soap might be more than a 12 round fight.  I don't claim to be an expert on shaving soap, and in all honesty, not really sure I care to be. But I do like shaving with the ones I've made and I love the experimentation. Here's some points from my experiments so far. Take them for what they're worth.
> 
> I use a sodium and potassium hydroxide blend, like your brand is showing. I like the harder puck.
> I listen to others, but try not to discount ingredients because a portion of the soapers believe they shouldn't be part of a good soap. For example:
> ...




Fun madness hopefully!

I am thinking there was a lot of tweaking going on with this formula- which is based on another similar one- both well regarded by shavers. I have no desire to attempt it- I will just be using it as a "control" or "baseline" for evaluating my concoctions.

Everything I read points to a mix of hydroxide's as well- I was thinking 70/30-KOH/NaOH to start
Because of the accolades in the forum- It just makes sense to begin with the Songwind formula and radiate from there. 

And yes, I am probably looking at a lot more than a dozen batches. Waking up this morning I realized the person I borrowed the above cake from would make a perfect sounding board- So I can bounce a test cake off his opinion for each batch. 
My jewelers scale- good for 500 grams total will now be enjoying 8oz increments of mix; 2 dishes at a time. One for me and one for feedback. 

This will be time consuming but engaging. Thanks for the feedback JustBeachy- I will keep everyone informed of decisions and progress...



Susie said:


> Welcome to the madness...Welcome to the addiction!




Oh dear- I am ADDHD afflicted already!!:crazy:



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> If it has to be soft enough to smoosh, then you might want to have more KOH than NaOH - at 50/50 I find it quite hard already, so going more the other way might be more to your liking.
> 
> If you like the butters, I would start off with a mix of the stearic, co and then a butter with a mix of KOH and NaOH.



Hopefully I will find out what I like after some experiments- the butters have been good for me. 
From your experience, would a 70/30 hydroxide mix for the Songwind recipe be soft enough to "smoosh"? And if I end up adding say 10% butter like Shea or Coco would it still smoosh?. 

Thanks for your feedback!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 24, 2014)

spacetransient said:


> Hopefully I will find out what I like after some experiments- the butters have been good for me.
> From your experience, would a 70/30 hydroxide mix for the Songwind recipe be soft enough to "smoosh"? And if I end up adding say 10% butter like Shea or Coco would it still smoosh?.
> 
> Thanks for your feedback!




70% KOH? Should be very smooshable. 

A tip for trying different things is to use plastic Tupperware type pots - put 3 or 4 (as many as fit) in to a slow cooker full of boiling water. That way you can try smaller batches of different recipes rather than making a lot of something that you don't feel quite does it for you.


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## spacetransient (Dec 24, 2014)

LBussy said:


> That soap's ingredient list is ... well let's just say not correct.  I already went several rounds with the "soaper's" fanboys where I proved that 1) he lies and 2) fanboys don't care.  So, if you like that, great, just don't use the ingredients list as a model.
> 
> If you shave with a straight especially, forget the lather p0rn.  You need more water added.  Go for stiff peaks, then add water a little at a time till you get yogurt.  That will give you the slip you want provided the soap is capable.  Far too many people use far too little water to be comfortable.
> 
> ...



Great post Lee! That's why I am here and it is the right place to be.:clap:

I will try the Songwind recipe first with a hydroxide mix, then when I get a batch that turns out well, I will use that as another control example to test your recipe against. Many thanks!!


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## JustBeachy (Dec 24, 2014)

spacetransient said:


> Fun madness hopefully!
> 
> I am thinking there was a lot of tweaking going on with this formula- which is based on another similar one- both well regarded by shavers. I have no desire to attempt it- I will just be using it as a "control" or "baseline" for evaluating my concoctions.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you're ready to have some fun. Having some people you can use as "test" subjects is a perfect environment.   Opinions are like....uh noses, we all have one. And no where is that more apparent than in these shaving soap threads. haha Truth is, different people are going to have different skins, and different needs. I'm pretty sure, there is no one shave soap, ingredient, etc. that is the universal "correct" answer.  I find most people can be biased toward their own favorites. In my opinion, have multiple people test your soaps and give feedback, is going to provide you with much more accurate feedback. 

Like I said in your first post, listen to everyone, but don't take anyone's opinion's as gospel, until you test it for yourself. For example, the use of clay has pretty strong opinions on both sides. Ask Craig what he thinks of "mud".  haha  I've been experimenting with both, and I'm still undecided. He does have some knowledgeable input on shaving soap and can be a good "open minded" sounding board. Some of the other "experts", I pretty much take with a grain of salt. 

 If any of us had already developed the perfect shave soap, we'd have it out on the market. We'd  be making enough money to be sitting on a beach somewhere, drinking margarita's and getting some sun on our baby smooth, shaved faces. 

Good luck and Merry Christmas.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 24, 2014)

JustBeachy said:


> ......the use of clay has pretty strong opinions on both sides. Ask Craig what he thinks of "mud".  haha.....,.
> ....




Tis true! I just got turned off to it one day by the idea of it blunting blades - since then I just can't seem to shake the idea. Pretty certain it can work as well from the feel - or better for some, even - but I get a good result without it.


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## Seawolfe (Dec 24, 2014)

For playing around with scents, its easy to split your test batches up after the cook and add your smells after it cools a bit. My last batch I tried 4 diff scents and my next batch will expound on the favorites into 4 more different smells. So far simple Cedar is my favorite, but hubby likes Eucalyptus and Mint.


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## spacetransient (Dec 24, 2014)

Seawolfe said:


> For playing around with scents, its easy to split your test batches up after the cook and add your smells after it cools a bit. My last batch I tried 4 diff scents and my next batch will expound on the favorites into 4 more different smells. So far simple Cedar is my favorite, but hubby likes Eucalyptus and Mint.




Thanks for the input!

I realize scents are another complex challenge- one where we are often trying to please others as well as ourselves, should the scent linger much past the shave...

Best for me to pass on that for now and keep focused on other characteristics of the soap until I have decided on a recipe and gotten to the :tweaking" stage.. Then I can start out simple, with some of your suggestions. If test batches smell poorly unscented, I may wish to reconsider!



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> 70% KOH? Should be very smooshable.
> 
> A tip for trying different things is to use plastic Tupperware type pots - put 3 or 4 (as many as fit) in to a slow cooker full of boiling water. That way you can try smaller batches of different recipes rather than making a lot of something that you don't feel quite does it for you.



Yep-
the silicone muffin pan idea isn't quite as convenient is it? I just ordered (20) 2-1/2"x1-1/2" round food grade microwavable mini-containers w/tops. 
Looks like my jewelers scale is really going to be needed. But it's nice not to waste too much product on learning and tests. 

Good advice- Thanks!


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## DeeAnna (Dec 24, 2014)

Not only is the smell of a fragrance important ... but I think it's important to keep in mind the irritation potential of essential oils and fragrance oils. You might have a great soap, you might love how it smells, but if the fragrance causes your skin to burn or itch, it's not going to be a winner.


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## JustBeachy (Dec 25, 2014)

spacetransient said:


> Thanks for the input!
> 
> I realize scents are another complex challenge- one where we are often trying to please others as well as ourselves, should the scent linger much past the shave...
> 
> Best for me to pass on that for now and keep focused on other characteristics of the soap until I have decided on a recipe and gotten to the :tweaking" stage.. Then I can start out simple, with some of your suggestions. If test batches smell poorly unscented, I may wish to reconsider!



I think it could go either way here. On one side, it's a great idea to keep the ingredients simple and change one thing at a time, when building a recipe. Allows you to pinpoint the differences in relation to the change.

On the other hand, if you're adding your scent after the cook, it shouldn't effect the quality of the soap. And it gives you the chance to try out some different scents.  As long as, like DeeAnna points out, it's not a skin irritating scent or amount of EO. 

You seem to be very comfortable in the process, and I'll bet you'll know exactly when to start playing with the scents. 

Merry Christmas.


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## Susie (Dec 25, 2014)

When using scents in a "mostly" KOH soap, start with the idea that less is more.  You can always add more scent to the batch, but you would have to make another batch of unscented soap to reduce the scent.  This is one huge benefit to "smooshable" paste.  Much more adjustable than bar soaps.


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## spacetransient (Dec 25, 2014)

Susie said:


> When using scents in a "mostly" KOH soap, start with the idea that less is more. You can always add more scent to the batch, but you would have to make another batch of unscented soap to reduce the scent. This is one huge benefit to "smooshable" paste. Much more adjustable than bar soaps.




Thanks Susie- but that calls for a newbie clarification -o):
So I can adequately blend in more scent as required later just by kneading in more like flower into dough?



DeeAnna said:


> Not only is the smell of a fragrance important ... but I think it's important to keep in mind the irritation potential of essential oils and fragrance oils. You might have a great soap, you might love how it smells, but if the fragrance causes your skin to burn or itch, it's not going to be a winner.



That just seems to confirm "simpler is better" when trying to do a recipe until I know how all the parts are interacting. I might for instance have a mild irritation to a scent then misinterpret that as a sign of inadequate skin conditioners and start changing an otherwise good formula- for the worse? 

But if I try out two or three scents following an otherwise successful recipe with the same ingredients I can know the EO's/FO's affects on me and rule them out should irritation be noticed in later experiments? 

I sure hope it is a rare occurrence for ingredients to interact and cause irritation or we could surely go nuts developing recipes...:crazy:


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## DeeAnna (Dec 25, 2014)

Yes, you can knead it in by hand or use a heavy duty stand mixer -- Kitchenaid -- and mix it in with the paddle attachment.

As far as ingredient interaction ... many folks end up making their own soap to get away from ingredients in commercial cleansers that cause irritation and unusual dryness. So I suspect this issue is more common than we'd like to believe.


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## LBussy (Dec 26, 2014)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Tis true! I just got turned off to it one day by the idea of it blunting blades - since then I just can't seem to shake the idea. Pretty certain it can work as well from the feel - or better for some, even - but I get a good result without it.


I experimented a little with clay using a DE - I won't sacrifice my straights. :razz:  I don't know for a fact that clay can dull a straight, but I do know some people use "diamond spray" to help get an edge and it's 0.1 micron.  Clay is larger than that and not uniform.  Granted. clay is softer than a true abrasive but so is skin and skin dulls razors too.

Anyway, one of the things I wanted to test in these experiences was the experience some folks reported of clay being smoother than just/more glycerin.  What I discovered is clay sometimes makes a soap that is somewhat less thirsty.  Glycerin is a humectant but it is also hydrophilic so it will "consume" water in the mix.  

It is very common for people to not use enough water when using real shaving soap.  There are some soaps which are "okay" with less water, but the best experience is obtained when enough water is added.  So an "okay" soap can be "okay" with less water and that same shaver may think a really great soap is not as good because they don't work it correctly.  Take both those soaps and add ample water and better soap really starts to shine.

So it's all still very personal.  I know at least one person who thinks wetter soap is "too messy" and he prefers his "okay" soap that will give a passable shave with less water.  I guess people need to do what they think they need to do.  I prefer to add all the water a soap can handle, and I'll experiment to find what that is before I try shaving with it.  

I believe all this talk about moisturizing is a moot point if you don't have the water in there to begin with.  Oils/butters/fats can help seal in skin moisture, but if you've not got enough water at the start it's a loser's game.


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## LBussy (Dec 26, 2014)

DeeAnna said:


> Yes, you can knead it in by hand or use a heavy duty stand mixer -- Kitchenaid -- and mix it in with the paddle attachment.


When I get done with my cook I need to add in the FO like pronto.  I believe I cook near all the water out so when it cooks it's quite hard.  There's a fine line between adding the FO to hot soap and having my house but not the soap smell as I want it, and having it so cool I can't get it mixed in.  (Some of my FO's have a very low flash point)


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## JustBeachy (Dec 26, 2014)

LBussy said:


> I experimented a little with clay using a DE - I won't sacrifice my straights. :razz:  I don't know for a fact that clay can dull a straight, but I do know some people use "diamond spray" to help get an edge and it's 0.1 micron.  Clay is larger than that and not uniform.  Granted. clay is softer than a true abrasive but so is skin and skin dulls razors too.
> 
> Anyway, one of the things I wanted to test in these experiences was the experience some folks reported of clay being smoother than just/more glycerin.  What I discovered is clay sometimes makes a soap that is somewhat less thirsty.  Glycerin is a humectant but it is also hydrophilic so it will "consume" water in the mix.
> 
> ...



I just tried this with one of my shave soaps. Lathered up the soap, with the "normal" technique I do, then used it to shave half my face.  Then practically doubled the water, (didn't really measure, just used what I considered a lot of water), lathered it up and shaved the other side. 

I know it's a simple test, and there could be other variables, but I have to agree with Bussy's comments here. The "wetter" lather shaved better. Slicker, closer with a single pass, and my face felt better afterwards. 

Again, not all inclusive as a test. But at first try I would say Bussy is on the money with the water amount making a big difference.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 26, 2014)

I am with you both on this - my old batch with +7% glycerin is one thing but when I compare my +15% glycerine soaps to it, they seem super thirsty. The fact that it could have been the glycerine hadn't occurred to me


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## boyago (Dec 26, 2014)

LBussy said:


> So it's all still very personal.  I know at least one person who thinks wetter soap is "too messy" and he prefers his "okay" soap that will give a passable shave with less water.  I guess people need to do what they think they need to do.  I prefer to add all the water a soap can handle, and I'll experiment to find what that is before I try shaving with it.
> 
> I believe all this talk about moisturizing is a moot point if you don't have the water in there to begin with.  Oils/butters/fats can help seal in skin moisture, but if you've not got enough water at the start it's a loser's game.



Hey Bussy can you explain your technique for lathering up a little more?  I'm picturing loading up a brush after a soak, using a lather bowl and flicking additional water from the brush while working in the bowl?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 26, 2014)

Not Lee, but I soak my brush, lather up on the puck until the proto-lather is really creamy, pour all the wetness from the soap container in my bowl and then start to work the lather.  I add in water a few drops at a time, taking it from the sink and dribbling it in with my fingers - I keep working and adding water until it is smooth.  If shaving with a straight razor, I do it for longer until it is soaking wet


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## LBussy (Dec 26, 2014)

boyago said:


> Hey Bussy can you explain your technique for lathering up a little more?  I'm picturing loading up a brush after a soak, using a lather bowl and flicking additional water from the brush while working in the bowl?



That down there ....



The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Not Lee, but I soak my brush, lather up on the puck until the proto-lather is really creamy, pour all the wetness from the soap container in my bowl and then start to work the lather.  I add in water a few drops at a time, taking it from the sink and dribbling it in with my fingers - I keep working and adding water until it is smooth.  If shaving with a straight razor, I do it for longer until it is soaking wet


That's pretty much it.  I have a silvertip badger so it holds a lot of water.  I soak for a few mins, give it a mild shake so water doesn't fly all over the place while I load.  I lightly load for 30 secs and then to the bowl.  I work for about 30 secs then start adding a few dribbles of water and working it in.

If you use a thinner badger or a boar you will need to add more water.  Get it to where the"stiff peaks" turn to "soft peaks."  Ideally, test and keep adding till it completely falls apart and when you shave use just a touch less.  If you don't know what I mean by stiff peaks and soft peaks ... well here:












The difference between our soap and egg whites will be we add water past stiff peaks, and with egg whites soft peaks is a stage on the way to stiff peaks.  Another way to describe it is "yogurty".


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## JustBeachy (Dec 26, 2014)

So Lee or Craig, probably more to Lee, since he's here in the states. Give me some brands of good to great shave soaps I can purchase in stores. I see some listed at Sephora, Art of shaving, Jack Black.  Or if you have any other suggestions. I'd rather not have to wait for an online purchase, but if this is the only way to get a good one, let me know.  The idea is to get some quality, store bought soap to use as a comparison to my home made soaps. 

Not sure why this just dawned on me, but seeing how I haven't wet shaved in years, I have no real baseline to work off of. Besides songwinds recipe.


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## boyago (Dec 27, 2014)

Thanks for the tips guys.

Beachy- since the more experienced dudes seem to be away at the moment if your check out the BargerandBlade site they have pretty extensive reviews if you see something locally you want to check out before buying.  I have been grabbing pucks when I run into them and they aren't too expensive or lame looking.  Also I wanted a decent soap to compare mine to and put the Proraso shave soap on my list and got it for xmass.  So far I like my newbie sophmoric soap best.


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## LBussy (Dec 27, 2014)

Best value for a tallow soap:

http://www.italianbarber.com/p160-special-shaving-soap-by-razorock-10

I think P.160 is very likely the best value in shaving soap available period quite honestly.

Tabac is a very good soap however a bit more expensive:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GHYXG4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

The fragrance of it takes some getting used to but it's a benchmark for a smooth shave.


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## boyago (Dec 27, 2014)

Nevermind, Lee saw the symbol.


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## JustBeachy (Dec 27, 2014)

boyago said:


> Thanks for the tips guys.
> 
> Beachy- since the more experienced dudes seem to be away at the moment if your check out the BargerandBlade site they have pretty extensive reviews if you see something locally you want to check out before buying.  I have been grabbing pucks when I run into them and they aren't too expensive or lame looking.  Also I wanted a decent soap to compare mine to and put the Proraso shave soap on my list and got it for xmass.  So far I like my newbie sophmoric soap best.



I appreciate it Boyago. I had sorta the same idea, but then when I was out shopping I realized, I could buy some of the different soaps I found, but wouldn't really know if I should be using them as a comparison. 



LBussy said:


> Best value for a tallow soap:
> 
> http://www.italianbarber.com/p160-special-shaving-soap-by-razorock-10
> 
> ...



Thanks I'll try both of them.


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## spacetransient (Dec 27, 2014)

LBussy said:


> Best value for a tallow soap:
> 
> http://www.italianbarber.com/p160-special-shaving-soap-by-razorock-10
> 
> ...



And it looks like they both use the basic recipe you like best: SA, CO, Tallow combination

I went on line and purchased some tallow per your recommendations. I will let you know how the mixes turn out after I get all the revised ingredients/crock pot plus some extra time. And I appreciate your listing available retail soaps for comparison.

How much better is the P.160 over something like Proraso Green? Costs 50% more- But I guess diminishing returns is the best reason to make our own if we "value" a great product. 

Thanks again Lee!


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## LBussy (Dec 28, 2014)

spacetransient said:


> And it looks like they both use the basic recipe you like best: SA, CO, Tallow combination


Funny how that works out.  



> I went on line and purchased some tallow per your recommendations. I will let you know how the mixes turn out after I get all the revised ingredients/crock pot plus some extra time. And I appreciate your listing available retail soaps for comparison.


You don't really end up using much tallow really.  I have done a couple batches with Lard as well (my bar soaps are made with lard).  I have not done side by side comparisons with lard vs tallow ... there's a psychological hump to get over with lard, I'll admit it I am as flawed as the next person. 



> How much better is the P.160 over something like Proraso Green? Costs 50% more- But I guess diminishing returns is the best reason to make our own if we "value" a great product.


I see P.160 direct from Italian Barber at $7.99 for 125 ml (4.2 oz) and the Proraso Green for $6.99 for 75 ml (2.5 oz) although currently on sale for $5.49.  That makes the P.160 $0.07 / gram and the Proraso $0.10 / gram ($0.08 / gram on sale) so the P.160 is a better value.

Razorock (Italian Barber is the same company) contracts the RR soap line from Italy so the P.160 is materially similar to the original P.160 Italian soap, and you see similarities in a lot of them.  Proraso is another Italian soap however it lacks the tallow and does have a lot of other "things" going on that makes it a very different experience,  Menthol is one.  I like menthol, but the combination of menthol and no tallow I find to be a little stark for my taste.

It's all very personal of course, but since you asked.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you try them.  Personally I find the Tabac to be about the slickest thing out there (when you use enough water).  If it wasn't for that odd scent I would probably stick with it.


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## spacetransient (Jan 1, 2015)

*Newb does New Year w/suds!*

Thanks for all the help and support.

It looks like my (our) first soap run is a success!! How do I know?
Zap test- negative
Shave test POSITIVE!

Mix:
65/35 KOH/NaOH
55% SA
45% CO
1 Tbls glycerin after trace
No FO
150 gram mix

Before the soap had even cooled I went to the bathroom, gave my brush a spin and lathered up:
1) Very easy lather- no "work" at all
2) Lather was reasonably dense and stable
3) No distinguishing odor- but I am a little stuffy in the nose right now.  

_1st impressions:_ 
95 for slip
                           90 cushion
                           80-85 conditioning- slight irritation/skin tightness

but otherwise a close, comfortable shave. Without question this is a great recipe to tweak!

Roughly compares to the Synergy Shaving Soap mentioned at the beginning used as a reference; just a reversal of attributes. Conditioners are already here so I will make up another batch soon with 5% lanolin & 5%Shea after trace as superfat and reduce the glycerine by 1/2 (1/2 Tbl-7.5%) to see how that works for my shave tomorrow. If that goes well I will reduce the CO by 5% and add 5% Castor oil and so on.  

Eventually the tallow will arrive and I can start on another comparison. This is just tooo much fun!!! Thanks again everyone!!!!! Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!~ 


_Comments on procedures:_ I weighed out everything ahead of time and placed them in the small plastic containers w/labels. Weighing requires conversion of ounces to grams as well as proportions to my 150 gr. total to fill these two 2-1/2" x 1-1/2" containers (which worked out nicely). 

Separated my oil and stearic acid. Added the KOH/NaOH to cold water, placed oil in crockpot and mixed in lye at about 143 degrees (low I know). Mixed with stirring spoon.I could not see any changes (none expected) but being new I used my hand mixer too-

So after about 10min more mixing (which I probably did not need to do) I figured go for it and added the SA. Wow- fast change to trace- thickened almost immediately. After 3 more minutes of stirring I added the glycerine, stirred three more minutes then taste tested- zap free. 

This is just too simple something must be wrong so without further to do I spooned the contents into their rightful containers as seen below:
then proceeded to my sink, then brush then blade. :smile:


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## LBussy (Jan 1, 2015)

Congratulations on your success!  The shea and lanolin will help.  Are you opposed to using tallow (or lard)?  I think that will make a nice conditioning lather for you.  I've not found any need for castor oil in my shaving soap.

SA needs about 155 to melt, I melt it in my CO just to be sure it's hot enough then stir in the lye.  No need to make it more fiddly than it needs to be.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 2, 2015)

Very cool! I found the higher co soaps to be lower conditioning (makes sense of course) but yours will get better over time in that regard


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## spacetransient (Jan 2, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Congratulations on your success!  The shea and lanolin will help.  Are you opposed to using tallow (or lard)?  I think that will make a nice conditioning lather for you.  I've not found any need for castor oil in my shaving soap.
> 
> SA needs about 155 to melt, I melt it in my CO just to be sure it's hot enough then stir in the lye.  No need to make it more fiddly than it needs to be.




Thanks Lee-
I have no problem using tallow- it just offends the vegetarians!:sick: I am sure that marketing aspect is more important to the professional soap makers than me.:think: I will do as you suggest- like I said, the tallow (2 lbs- best bang for the buck I could find) is on the way. I even ordered a cake of the P.160 to use for comparison.

But I will still try to do my best to equal a tallow based soap with a vegetable based recipe- perhaps one w/milk just for comparison. Always nice to know what we are gaining or giving up with each recipe.


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## spacetransient (Jan 2, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Very cool! I found the higher co soaps to be lower conditioning (makes sense of course) but yours will get better over time in that regard



Thanks Craig-

I figured as much so I am saving all my cakes to try at various intervals. Shaved with the second batch this morning and the lanolin/shea butter combo helped- but seemed a step back on slip.


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## spacetransient (Jan 2, 2015)

*2nd Batch results:*

So in the second batch I reduced the glycerin by half (to 1/2 tbl in 150g of soap) but added in 2-1/2% lanolin and 5% Shea Butter.

This morning I shaved with it and everything was pretty much to expectations:

Slip- Less slip than the original Songwind recipe but almost a 90/100
Cushion- more cushion than the original but that is somewhat deceiving as the 
               lather was a little more creamy/dense with the added fats/oil and less                    glycerin. I have a psychological bias to denser suds= better cushion.
               90+/100
Conditioning: without question superior. 90+/100

All in all I "liked" this recipe a little better than the original, mostly due to the added conditioning oil+butter lending a better over-all shave balance. It will need a FO for sure though- mildly disagreeable 'grease' smell without one.

And we will see how age matures the characteristics of each cake I save.


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## spacetransient (Jan 2, 2015)

*2nd Batch Pic's*

So my previous upload attempt seems to have failed- hear are the pics of the new batch (yawn)- not much different than before but with a yellow cast to them. The rear tub is the original recipe with foreground as newest.


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## LBussy (Jan 2, 2015)

Sounds like you are narrowing in on something you will like.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 2, 2015)

I would try the butter recipe with 15% glycerine - best of both worlds!


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## spacetransient (Jan 4, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I would try the butter recipe with 15% glycerine - best of both worlds!




Well, since you have likely been there and done that already I will take the encouragement as good advice! (Like steering me to the original recipe/Songwind thread- Thanks again!!)

I have been wanting to substitute the Shea for Mango and see what happens. Shea has been good for my skin but I am inexperienced with the other butters and the Mango has been recommended by other soap makers as good for the shavers. 

What's your take on that Craig? Leave out the lanolin and just go full 15% glycerin and 7.5% mango after trace?


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## spacetransient (Jan 4, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Sounds like you are narrowing in on something you will like.



Not so sure Lee-
I still have 2lbs of tallow to soap! (and thanks for the lanolin and butter advice after trace)
Methinks I have much more experimenting to do. When supplies get low I may force myself to stick with something. 

Until then I feel like a kid in a candy shop!!:grin:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 5, 2015)

spacetransient said:


> .......
> What's your take on that Craig? Leave out the lanolin and just go full 15% glycerin and 7.5% mango after trace?




I would try it all! 15% glycerin with mango butter. Then again with lanolin in there, too. As Lee says, you'll start to get a feel for what really works wonders on your skin


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## LBussy (Jan 5, 2015)

Also ... and this will fall on deaf ears as it did with me:  If you CAN, try changing one thing at a time.  Statisticians can infer results by changing multiples but we're not them.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 5, 2015)

That is a very good point indeed


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## spacetransient (Jan 5, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Also ... and this will fall on deaf ears as it did with me:  If you CAN, try changing one thing at a time.  Statisticians can infer results by changing multiples but we're not them.




The temptation is always there to do too much and loose sight of the contributions each change makes to the whole and then how to correct or improve. :?: I get it. 

Ok- Mango substitution alone for the Shea next. Then I will try increasing the glycerin amount to 15% in the follow-up mix and use whichever butter I think is working the best. Then remove the lanolin from whichever of those mixes I like the best and report back. (Best guess Sunday evening).

After choosing the best of those batches it's on to your suggested tallow recipe the following week. The P.160 soap you like as a reference is in.:smile:

Thanks again Lee and Craig for following up.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 5, 2015)

More than welcome - I am also getting a lot of this thread and other discussions about shaving soaps.  Besides, talking about shaving soap basically combines two of my great loves together.  I can't get enough.


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## spacetransient (Jan 11, 2015)

*Next Batch Complete!*

Mango was substituted for Shea butter (again after trace) - recipe was otherwise unchanged for one cup-

Then I added 7.5% more glycerine to the next cup (1/2 the total) to bring it up to a full 15% glycerin as was typical with this recipe. The soap was getting harder to mix at this point so stretching and air effects were noted. The mix got noticeably whiter and the glycerine caused a bit of foaming with the soap which died down with continued mixing. I do not think the added glycerin was mixed as homogeneously with the soap as I would like but I think it did well enough. 

Shave testing will begin tomorrow... 

And as a side note I had my very first fragrance oil reaction from soap! This was from the well regarded Italian Barber: P.160 shaving soap. Being a newbie soap maker it did not even occur to me to taste test the stuff to see if it was surplus lye I was reacting to instead but regardless I will need something else for comparison.

 It was likely a histamine reaction because each time the effect was worse than before- three times in total with three different brushes. First time I just thought I had a touch of razor burn from the razor I was using- The second time I knew something was wrong during the shave but pressed on to completion. Third time I used a good, freshly cleaned synthetic brush (to eliminate thoughts of potential soap residues reacting with one another) just to see if that would make a difference; but my eyes began watering and my face turned red immediately and felt like a sunburn.  Rinsing completely I used the soap I had made last week with the lanolin and Shea Butter and managed a complete shave despite the irritation. I think the lanolin and butter did make a difference after this extreme example. But I was still red for an hour longer.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 12, 2015)

Sorry to hear about the reaction. Glad it worked out with the shave though.  

I have to ask - why add the butter at trace?


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## LBussy (Jan 12, 2015)

We generally only hear about bad things, so take this with a grain of salt, but a reaction to almond essential oils (P.160, Cella) is not uncommon to hear about.  Medical texts would put it in the 1-2% range I think, but who knows for sure.  I am sorry to hear about it though because that's one fine soap.  If you liked it aside from that, the XXX is a very good one, sort of an Aqua di Parma fragrance:

http://www.italianbarber.com/razorock-xxx-italian-shaving-soap

There's no reason to put the glycerin in late.  I put it in my oils as they are melting.  

If you are looking to retain a larger portion of the mango for the moisturizing (leaving it in the superfat) what I do is mix the SF in with the fragrances after the cook.  Mixing it in at trace is just more work.


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## LBussy (Jan 12, 2015)

I forgot to mention:  It is generally very easy to find someone to buy the soap if you can;t use it.  B&B has a gentleman's sale area available for that sort of thing.


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## spacetransient (Jan 12, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Sorry to hear about the reaction. Glad it worked out with the shave though.
> 
> I have to ask - why add the butter at trace?


 

That I thought was Lee's suggestion and interpreted it as being used for skin conditioning as a superfat- correct me if I am wrong. 

The glycerine was added after trace on the second 1/2 of the same batch for experimental convenience. I just wanted the same recipe with more glycerin without starting from scratch.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 12, 2015)

spacetransient said:


> That I thought was Lee's suggestion and interpreted it as being used for skin conditioning as a superfat- correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> The glycerine was added after trace on the second 1/2 of the same batch for experimental convenience. I just wanted the same recipe with more glycerin without starting from scratch.


 
You need to add things after the cook if you want it to avoid the lye.  Adding at trace means it is still reacting with the lye for pretty much the same amount of time as the rest of the oils - but after the cook, all of the lye is away which leaves your superfat as a fat.


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## spacetransient (Jan 12, 2015)

LBussy said:


> There's no reason to put the glycerin in late.  I put it in my oils as they are melting.
> 
> If you are looking to retain a larger portion of the mango for the moisturizing (leaving it in the superfat) what I do is mix the SF in with the fragrances after the cook.  Mixing it in at trace is just more work.



Please explain the difference- "mix...after the cook vs. at trace...more work"? Once the stearic is added it traces very fast there is no more cook time per se. I have been splitting up the cook to CO first then the SA last. Plus I thought adding after trace would insure it as non-reacted SF. 

Would it be easier and give me a little more 'cook' time to add the CO, SA and glycerin at the same time then wait for trace to begin to add everything else- fragrance, lanolin/SF?


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## LBussy (Jan 12, 2015)

Trace happens fact to be sure, and with SA it get's pretty thick pretty quick, but it's not done reacting.  It takes about 30 mins for it to "cook" and I cook mine for 2 hours to reduce the water content.  At that time it is like stiff mashed potatoes and that's when I mix in my superfats and fragrance.

I put all of the fats (minus the superfat) + glycerin in the crock pot, melt, then add the lye.  I cook for 2 hrs then add SF and fragrance.


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## spacetransient (Jan 12, 2015)

LBussy said:


> I forgot to mention:  It is generally very easy to find someone to buy the soap if you can;t use it.  B&B has a gentleman's sale area available for that sort of thing.



That's going back to the one who loaned me the Synergy Soap I am using as one (vegan) reference. The XXX and 'for Chicago' were both recommended tallow recipe's from Italian Barber. It's just that price plus shipping goes higher than I would like- over my $3/ounce rule but I will troll around for the best deal on one of the two-
I take comparisons seriously and appreciate your input. 

Thanks again Lee.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 12, 2015)

I haven't cooked a full size batch of shaving soap yet, so I don't know the timings involved, but Lee has it all there.

Adding something at trace doesn't help, I am sorry to say.  When the soap stops zapping, all the lye has reacted with oils/fats (acids) and is gone.  This is not at trace - at trace, lye is still active and WILL react with your butter.

My process is:  melt the oils and make the lye solution.  Mix the two together and stir until it is nice and thick.  ((At this point, it would still zap me, lye is still in there))  I then heat this until it stops zapping ((all the lye is cooked away)) and then add in my other ingredients, such as a superfat and EOs.


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## LBussy (Jan 12, 2015)

spacetransient said:


> That's going back to the one who loaned me the Synergy Soap I am using as one (vegan) reference. The XXX and 'for Chicago' were both recommended tallow recipe's from Italian Barber. It's just that price plus shipping goes higher than I would like- over my $3/ounce rule but I will troll around for the best deal on one of the two


Tell ya what - I think there are so many better examples out there than Synergy ... send me your name and address in a PM and I'll send you a sample of a good vegan and some of a good tallow.  I'm pretty sure I have a tub of XXX somewhere.


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## spacetransient (Jan 12, 2015)

LBussy said:


> Tell ya what - I think there are so many better examples out there than Synergy ... send me your name and address in a PM and I'll send you a sample of a good vegan and some of a good tallow.  I'm pretty sure I have a tub of XXX somewhere.




Great Lee!!!


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## spacetransient (Jan 12, 2015)

LBussy said:


> It takes about 30 mins for it to "cook" and I cook mine for 2 hours to reduce the water content.  At that time it is like stiff mashed potatoes and that's when I mix in my superfats and fragrance.



What is the advantage of removing water from the soap? Especially in such a labor intensive way that surely this must be if we occasionally stir like a sauce?

Wouldn't fans or freeze drying be easier and just as/more energy efficient- that requires little or no oversight? We could adjust the water content just as precisely by timing and for that matter using a moisture meter for accuracy.


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## spacetransient (Jan 12, 2015)

*New comparisons of recipe's -shaving results.*

Without going into too many details I really like what the Mango as SF did for the suds- more of the silky feel we look for and noticeably easier to lather. Adding glycerin only made subtle changes to the conditioning/slip/cushioning elements- all positive but minor except noticeably easier and more lather.  

So while I like what Shea has done for my skin, as a shaving soap I like the Mango better- a -fresher, cleaner, silkier lather- and think those improvements are worthwhile even with the slight loss of conditioning which the Shea imparts and which the added glycerin helps offset too.

I'll be saving the Shea for body soaps and lotions when this project is satisfied...

While perfection is not attainable I think we can get "close enough" to feel the possibility of incremental improvements are no longer worth the added effort. The point of diminishing returns- At least that has been my experience and what I am hoping for.  

I've tested a fragrance that works for me and my skin and will be added in the next batch.

A few more experiments and it's on to tallow...

I am quite interested in hearing back from Craig and Lee but I think my part in this thread should wrap for now- hopefully another begins later.:arrow: WHEN THE SEMI-FINALS BEGIN!!

Thanks all!!!:clap:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 13, 2015)

Awesome news - sounds like you are well on the way to having a recipe that delivers on all fronts.


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## LBussy (Jan 13, 2015)

spacetransient said:


> What is the advantage of removing water from the soap? Especially in such a labor intensive way that surely this must be if we occasionally stir like a sauce?


Once you find a way that works for you, you should stick to it.  Consistent results come from consistent practice.

I arrived at that because it absolutely 100% means that the lye is reacted (probably is consistently after 30 ins).  I do not believe that a hot process soap so processed benefits in any significant way from a lengthy cure, I do not perceive any difference in a months-old soap and a day old soap.  Heat accelerates any chemical changes and drives off moisture (both parts of curing).  Aside from waiting for the soap fairy to dose it with pixie dust after a fortnight under the moon nothing else is going to change.

It's not labor intensive really.  I close the crock pot lid and stir every 20 mins or so.


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