# Liquid soap second try - recipe help



## Seawolfe (Aug 6, 2014)

Thanks to Susie and Grayceworks I successfully made the liquid bastille shown below, and its a wonderful soap - especially for my skin and hair. It does clean dishes ok but I'd like it to have more ooomph on the grease cutting, without completely drying my hands out. Or is that just silly talk?

My thought was to basically reverse the coconut and olive oil so that CO would be 70% and OO would be 25%, but should I also lower the superfat from 3% to 2% or even 1%? I might be being a bit of a sissy about how low liquid soaps typically superfat....


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## FGOriold (Aug 6, 2014)

I would actually do a 0% superfat for a cleaning product.


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## Susie (Aug 6, 2014)

FGOriold is exactly correct.  I would use a 0 or 0.5% superfat for cleaning products.  I would, indeed, swap the coconut for the olive oil(or use up to 100% coconut) IF I were planning on wearing gloves to use it.  It will be very drying.  

I have a batch of 100% coconut I am planning to use as a degreaser(just made it, have not tried it.)  I already have to use gloves when using my current degreaser, so that would not change.   You may not want to, so formulate based on that.

Oh, and I would not use glycerin with this batch.  I would use straight water, and add 0.5oz grated(handmade) bar soap PPO(per pound of oil) to the lye water to speed trace.


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## Seawolfe (Aug 6, 2014)

Wearing gloves for dish washing isn't an option, though I do like the idea of a 100% CO 0% SF liquid soap for super grunge to make later. 
So for a dish washing soap that I don't need gloves for how does a 0.5% SF no glycerin 70% CO batch sound?

And TY for the idea of adding a bit of soap to speed trace.


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## Susie (Aug 6, 2014)

Try it.  I make my dish and laundry soap with coconut 75% and soybean 25%.  It seems fine to me.  I use the soybean to cut the cost of the soap.  I figure dishes and clothes don't need expensive olive oil. 

You are more than welcome for the hint about the bar soap.  I am sure I got it off YouTube.  Either Soaping 101 or Good Earth Spa.  Works a charm.


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## Seawolfe (Aug 7, 2014)

Wow trace!! Blend blend blend WHAM!!! All of a sudden solid as a solid log of soap after 24 hrs cure! So I cooked it on low for a few hours, broke it into chunks, and turned the crockpot to high. After about 3 hours on high, the paste has loosened up, and it's more like HP batter. It doesn't zap anymore, but when I mix a bit with water, it's still not clear. It's a bit milky. And the batter isn't fully translucent. Do I keep cooking?  I'm tired and I wanna go to bed...


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## Susie (Aug 7, 2014)

Zap test is my sole test.  I never clarity check mine.  I cook(when I cook) 3 hours, check for zap, then dilute.  I only care if it is safe for skin or not.  I don't really care if my soap is clear, especially laundry or dish soap. 

I really don't cook mine any more, though.  I get it to trace, unplug the crock pot, then wrap a heavy beach towel or blanket around it.  I then just walk away for several hours(6-12 hours-ish).  When I come back, and it looks hard paste like, then I zap test and start dilution.  I add close to the correct amount of liquid(if I know it), turn the crock pot on high, and let it go for a while.  I will adjust the liquid if I need to, but mostly just let it go.  Watch carefully to be sure it does not bubble out of the pot.  If it gets too happy, just turn it down to low.  If I need to go somewhere or sleep, I just turn off the crock pot and bring the wrap back out.

My feeling is that soaping needs to fit my life, not the other way around.  As long as it is still a hobby, not a job.


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## Seawolfe (Aug 7, 2014)

Thanks Susie! I seemed to remember what you said about the zap test being all that matters, so I split the paste up, added 1.5 X dilution water and went to bed. Still a few chunkies and a skin this am, so I brought it up to 2 X water and left it to sit while I'm at work. 

I need to become more zen about LS like you are - its a goal


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## Susie (Aug 7, 2014)

Honey, I took the same path to "Zen" that you are on.  I came here,  to YouTube, and to liquidsoapers Yahoo group, and learned a bit from this one, a bit from that one.  Wonderful, brilliant people who didn't mind teaching a freaked out newbie like me.  I am just paying it forward.  It won't be long you are giving the same advice to someone.  Truly.


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## DeeAnna (Aug 7, 2014)

Susie, you are a refreshing "drink of water" to this newbie liquid soaper. 

I've only made one LS batch, and had a lot of fun with it -- it seemed pretty easy and straightforward to me. And then I read about all the angst and anxiety of liquid soapers who cook for hours, test the pH repeatedly, tediously lower the pH to whatever they think it needs to be, weep over separated and cloudy batches, and all that. Reading all this makes me feel tired and annoyed, and I find myself making excuses to not try another batch even though my first one was fine.

I don't have the experience to always sort out the frou-frou part of liquid soaping from the real heart and meat of the process, however, so thanks for sharing your perspective. It means a lot.

PS: I have wondered if Catherine Failor did the cream and liquid soapers a huge dis-service by writing the books she did. Is this thought utterly heretical, and should I fear being burned at the stake?


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## Susie (Aug 7, 2014)

She wrote those books before we had access to the internet that we do now.  She mostly "flew by the seat of her pants" on exactly what you were talking about in the other thread.  She had many different SAP values to oils she had available.  She discovered a process that worked with the information and materials she had.  She did a marvelous job, and she was kind and helpful enough to want to help other people discover the joys of liquid soapmaking.

But, we have more information now at the tips of our fingers than she had in probably all the books she owned combined.  Online lye calculators are a wonderful, marvelous thing.  We just do not have to go through all of that.  And, the more we learn, the more streamlined the process becomes.  I keep cutting unnecessary steps out as I learn more.  I am almost to the point that I think liquid soapmaking is as easy as CP.  Almost.

We owe Catherine Failor an unending, immeasurable thank you.  But, we do not need to follow her steps line by line.  I find nothing wrong with "adopting and adapting" her recipes by taking the oils, and running them through the lye calculator for yourself.  

As Maya Angelou said, “I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”


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## DeeAnna (Aug 7, 2014)

Point taken, Susie. I'm glad I have folks like you to lean on!


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## Seawolfe (Aug 7, 2014)

I've learned a ton more here about liquid soap here than in books, or even the rest of the web. Finding out that I don't need to use a special recipe, neutralize, cook to clarity or thicken after if I don't want makes it as easy as hp soap really.

This doesn't mean that all the info out there is useless, no knowledge is useless, but allows me to get more Zen like about it.

Edit to add: I just tried my new soap, and it cut the grease nicely in the popcorn bowls and pan, and my hands aren't at all dry


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## lady-of-4 (Aug 15, 2014)

Cooking and testing for clarity is always a good practice to have to ensure all your fats have turned to soap.  If the soap is cloudy,  or very milky even,  it can spell trouble in the future with free fats separating out. Unless you purposefully superfatted,  then I'd recommend a solubilizer to keep the free fats in check.  On the flip side,  testing for free/excess lye is most important,  especially when the soap is clear.  I'm personally not one for zap testing.  IMO it's inaccurate in that tongue sensitivities vary from person to person.  Also,  how can you test for free lye,  if you don't know what free lye tastes or feels like? That's like using a brand new ingredient without first knowing how to do it.  And expecting specific results to follow.  "Calibrating"  you're tongue to understand what free lye is like would be recommended,  in this case.  But I don't think folks want to do that.  So now we have soapers arbitrarily zap testing,  but not knowing what to look for.  Each of us can try and describe the taste and sensation.  But as I stated,  everyone's tongue is vastly different. What is bitter to one, could be described as sour to another.


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## Lindy (Aug 15, 2014)

When you zap test and hit something that is lye heavy you know it.  It literally zaps you and there is no doubt about it.  It's not a matter of adjusting your tongue to know what it tastes like because it has nothing at all to do with taste.


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## Seawolfe (Aug 15, 2014)

Yeah, if you're not sure if it's zappity or not, it's not. There is no mistaking THAT zap. It's not a taste, it's a feeling.


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## Susie (Aug 15, 2014)

For the newer folks, the zap test is discussed in this helpful forum stickie:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30690

And the best part about this is that there is no right answer.  What works for me, does not necessarily work for you.  No problem.  I welcome others' opinions, as I am still learning.  New folks can choose what works for them.  I have been really careful to tell folks that I do not sell, and do not use preservative, as that would necessitate a method change to ascertain a definitive pH for preservative use.


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## lady-of-4 (Aug 15, 2014)

Eh, i beg to differ.  I've attempted to zap test soaps where I had a known lye excess and received nothing. I've known many folks who've done the same and felt nothing.  Which goes back to my statement that everyone's sensitivites are different.  Gods forbid if I took the lack of zap at face value and proceeded to use the soap on my kids.  The idea of 'calibrating' isn't my idea.  It's actually something pinned out of Scientific SoapMaking, by Kevin Dunn. It makes sense if you really think about.  If you never knew before, how would you know all of a sudden?  Again, descriptions from others is subjective.   I prefer to err on the side of caution in a way that folks like to do the same when using preservatives in certain products. I'd hate to make my autistic son afraid to take a shower again because the soap hurt him due to my lack of adequate testing.  But as it was said, to each their own.


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## Lindy (Aug 16, 2014)

Lady-of-4 you can fly in the face of generally accepted practices as much as you like but I promise you that if you truly had "zap tested" a truly lye heavy soap you would know unless you tongue was devoid of all feeling.  There is absolutely no mistaking a lye heavy soap and zap.  Please do not start recommending unsafe practices on this board.


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## Susie (Aug 16, 2014)

lady-of-4 said:


> Eh, i beg to differ.  I've attempted to zap test soaps where I had a known lye excess and received nothing. I've known many folks who've done the same and felt nothing.  Which goes back to my statement that everyone's sensitivites are different.  Gods forbid if I took the lack of zap at face value and proceeded to use the soap on my kids.  The idea of 'calibrating' isn't my idea.  It's actually something pinned out of Scientific SoapMaking, by Kevin Dunn. It makes sense if you really think about.  If you never knew before, how would you know all of a sudden?  Again, descriptions from others is subjective.   I prefer to err on the side of caution in a way that folks like to do the same when using preservatives in certain products. I'd hate to make my autistic son afraid to take a shower again because the soap hurt him due to my lack of adequate testing.  But as it was said, to each their own.



You are absolutely allowed to differ in opinion!  Forums work best when not everyone agrees.  Sometimes we can all learn a bit from one another, or at least that is the intention!  I choose to zap test for the same reason that you choose to pH test, my children.  I found that I could get 3-4 different pH results from a single batch of soap.  I needed one absolutely unmistakable safe-or-not-safe determination for the soap.  

I use all of my soaps before anyone else is even allowed to sniff one.  Period.  I would no more endanger my family than you would.  My heart breaks for you, and your family.  Autism is such a challenge for everyone.  It takes a special mother to be able to cope with an autistic child.  My hat's off to you.


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## lady-of-4 (Aug 16, 2014)

Lindy said:


> Lady-of-4 you can fly in the face of generally accepted practices as much as you like but I promise you that if you truly had "zap tested" a truly lye heavy soap you would know unless you tongue was devoid of all feeling.  There is absolutely no mistaking a lye heavy soap and zap.  Please do not start recommending unsafe practices on this board.



I'm not recommending anything.  I'm simply trying to get people to think logically.  Might I recommend the book,  Scientific Soapmaking,  by Kevin Dunn,  so that you may better understand where the idea comes from?  He is a fellow soap maker with a PHD in chemistry and actually took the time to break down soap making,  on a scientific level.  It's great for those who care to think outside the box,  or quite simply who want to understand the process,  rather than just do what is a generally accepted practice.


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## lady-of-4 (Aug 16, 2014)

Susie said:


> You are absolutely allowed to differ in opinion!  Forums work best when not everyone agrees.  Sometimes we can all learn a bit from one another, or at least that is the intention!  I choose to zap test for the same reason that you choose to pH test, my children.  I found that I could get 3-4 different pH results from a single batch of soap.  I needed one absolutely unmistakable safe-or-not-safe determination for the soap.
> 
> I use all of my soaps before anyone else is even allowed to sniff one.  Period.  I would no more endanger my family than you would.  My heart breaks for you, and your family.  Autism is such a challenge for everyone.  It takes a special mother to be able to cope with an autistic child.  My hat's off to you.



Thank you Susie.  I don't mean to insult.  Simply educate.  I understand we all do things differently.  But I also like to push limits and question what folks deem acceptable and not. So when I find something new, to me at least, I want to share it.  Not be talked down to by my peers.  Not implying that you do,  but,  it seems to be the norm in our craft.  Even when sufficient evidence is produced to affirm my claims.


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## Susie (Aug 16, 2014)

I have read his book.  While it was a very interesting book, and it made a great deal of sense to this nurse, I do not feel it meets the needs of most average soapmakers.  I could be wrong.  

I spent most of my career as a home health and hospice nurse.  My job was breaking down medicalese for patients and their families, helping them learn to cope with disease processes, and helping them learn their new diets and lifestyles by helping them go through their cabinets and refrigerators:  

"This is ok to eat, that is not.  This label tells you that." 
"This cup holds a perfect amount of rice or potatoes for a serving."
"This glass is the correct serving size of milk." 
"You need no more liquid than this in a whole 24 hour day."
"This is how you give yourself insulin."
"This is how you clean and dress that wound."

So, I tend to think about everything like that.  How can I break down this for the average person to first ensure their safety,  and second to help them understand what to do in the easiest method possible.  When I find that, and test it myself, I share it.


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## lady-of-4 (Aug 16, 2014)

Susie said:


> I have read his book.  While it was a very interesting book, and it made a great deal of sense to this nurse, I do not feel it meets the needs of most average soapmakers.  I could be wrong.
> 
> I spent most of my career as a home health and hospice nurse.  My job was breaking down medicalese for patients and their families, helping them learn to cope with disease processes, and helping them learn their new diets and lifestyles by helping them go through their cabinets and refrigerators:
> 
> ...



His book was hard to digest in many aspects. It was a lot of chemical math,  and not a whole lot of explaining why soap is this way of that.  But in the end,  chemistry is like that. Chemistry at work is in the form of its own special language.  It's definitely not for a beginning soap maker unless they already have a complex mindset to break it down and understand it all. I did come away from the book with more than I started with.  

But,  it seems I digress.  And we should get back to the topic at hand.


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## cmzaha (Aug 16, 2014)

I pretty much make mine like Susie and do not in the least worry about clarity. I absolutely love 100% coconut oil soap paste for cleaning. I dilute a jar of liquid 100% coconut soap but keep the rest in paste form. The paste works great for cleaning my glass stove top, which by the way, I would never buy again. I even use it to squeegee my huge amount of glass in my house. I have a floor to ceiling wall of glass and it works wonderful with a squeegee
Another great way to go is make single oil ls then you can blend them until you are happy with the feel


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## CanaDawn (Aug 16, 2014)

Susie said:


> I choose to zap test for the same reason that you choose to pH test, my children.  I found that I could get 3-4 different pH results from a single batch of soap.  I needed one absolutely unmistakable safe-or-not-safe determination for the soap.
> .



And this is exactly why zap testing is more often advocated by those experienced soapers who want safe soap.  pH testing on soap is just unreliable, and/or difficult to ensure is done consistently and accurately.  The pH isn't the issue anyhow - the reactivity of free lye is.  

It's false logic (and insulting) to assume or imply that others use the zap test because they don't understand the chemistry or the arithmetic involved in other safety assurance methods.  It's quick and reliable for the majority of users, making it a good safety check.  Obviously, if your tongue is different to the majority, you'll need a different method, but that isn't because the zap test is not useful.


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## CanaDawn (Aug 16, 2014)

cmzaha said:


> I pretty much make mine like Susie and do not in the least worry about clarity. I absolutely love 100% coconut oil soap paste for cleaning. I dilute a jar of liquid 100% coconut soap but keep the rest in paste form. The paste works great for cleaning my glass stove top, which by the way, I would never buy again. I even use it to squeegee my huge amount of glass in my house. I have a floor to ceiling wall of glass and it works wonderful with a squeegee
> Another great way to go is make single oil ls then you can blend them until you are happy with the feel




I use 100% coconut oil soap for pretty much everything.  I don't use gloves, and rarely find it causes a problem with dry hands (not more than just using hot water for an extended period of time does, frankly).  I agree on the use of it for glass stoves - any glass.  I find it needs to be rinsed and dried for best effect - but it's worth it for the level of clean that results!

I hadn't tried it on windows - but on looking out of my big windows this morning, I think today's the day.....thanks for the inadvertent shove into this chore!


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