# Hello from St Louis, MO (area..)



## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

Hey Guys,

Very new to the the soap making world, but not new to using oils and essential oils for health and beauty.  I have beat my head against a wall trying to make some recipes work and for the life of me.. I apparently am not getting it done.  I upped my game (or so I thought) by paying a chemist to help (as I have been focused on other things)... So far.. It's been unsatisfactory.  

So here I am.  To throw myself at the feet of the natural soap gods to learn as quickly as I can to figure these things out!  Thanks for having me and sorry for any novice questions that will ensue (if they do).

If anyone is from the St Louis area.  PLEASE, Please reach out.  I would love to bend your ear.  I will supply the booze. 

Jim


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## doriettefarm (Oct 21, 2016)

Welcome to the forum.  It would definitely help if you shared some of the recipes you've already tried and deemed unsatisfactory.  What advice did your chemist provide?  And finally what's your definition of natural . . . that can vary widely from person to person.


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## Kamahido (Oct 21, 2016)

I would start by watching this 4 part youtube series on the basics of soap making.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6ttCSrLJI&list=PLAADF6209996265D2[/ame]

It starts with soaping safety to hopefully keep you out of the emergency room.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> Welcome to the forum.  It would definitely help if you shared some of the recipes you've already tried and deemed unsatisfactory.  What advice did your chemist provide?  And finally what's your definition of natural . . . that can vary widely from person to person.



lol you couldn't be more right about the natural part being subjective.  As I have encountered that.  I have 2 recipes, how in depth do you want the recipes that I have attempted?  Just the ingredients or the ingredients and their weight?  

I paid 2 chemists and I sent them both a list of ingredients that I would like to use for a soap.  One actually attempted the feat with an added ingredient and the other kind of disregarded the list all together (with proprietary ingredients I might add) AND was more expensive... 

That's why I'm here.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

Kamahido said:


> I would start by watching this 4 part youtube series on the basics of soap making.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR6ttCSrLJI&list=PLAADF6209996265D2
> 
> It starts with soaping safety to hopefully keep you out of the emergency room.



Kamahido, I appreciate it.  The safety part... I'm well beyond that.  I have a respirator, eye protection and elbow gloves.  I know what lye is (grew up on a farm) and I know how dangerous it can be (have the burn scars to prove it).  

Unfortunately, my internet allows me to watch that 30 seconds at a time (after about 1-2minute load times).  Video isn't really that much of an option for me.  Use my cell phone you say?  Yeah, come visit me and you'll understand that's not much of an option for me either.  I really do appreciate the response as it does let me know that people here are real and they are serious about helping others.  I am a forum veteran.  In college I built a motorcycle in my kitchen with the help of a forum.  Amazing guys helped me build that motorcycle (still own it) and I will never forget that. 

Jim


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## doriettefarm (Oct 21, 2016)

You definitely don't need to pay a chemist to help you formulate a nice soap recipe.  Would you mind posting the list of ingredients you provided to the chemist?  Knowing what base oils were selected and percentages would certainly be helpful.  That way we know what qualities you're shooting for and what you've already tried.  Also let us know if there are any particular ingredients that are out of the question (for example animal fats).

ETA:  you might get more responses if you post recipe questions in the Beginner or Lye-Based Soap forums


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## Susie (Oct 21, 2016)

Hey and welcome!

Here's a freebie recipe that works well (like they aren't all free on here, LOL)

Lard or tallow or palm 65%
Olive Oil 15%
Coconut Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

Do post your other recipes over on the beginner forum, and we will be happy to troubleshoot them for you.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> You definitely don't need to pay a chemist to help you formulate a nice soap recipe.  Would you mind posting the list of ingredients you provided to the chemist?  Knowing what base oils were selected and percentages would certainly be helpful.  That way we know what qualities you're shooting for and what you've already tried.  Also let us know if there are any particular ingredients that are out of the question (for example animal fats).
> 
> ETA:  you might get more responses if you post recipe questions in the Beginner or Lye-Based Soap forums




Percentages/weight - I can post, but I'm not entirely sure how comfortable doing so.  However, that is the basic ingredient list that I started with.  Now I know that there is a saponification either Potassium or Sodium, but those are the base ingredients.


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## doriettefarm (Oct 21, 2016)

Understandable if you don't want to post percentages since you paid good money for the recipe but it's going to be much harder for us to help troubleshoot.  Can you elaborate on why you selected those particular base oils?  And what you did or did not like about the resulting soap.  I'm assuming you're asking about making bar soap using the cold process method (i.e. using sodium hydroxide not potassium) but you're not giving us much concrete info to go on.

Based solely on the ingredient list, I can pretty much say my skin probably wouldn't be a fan of that recipe but would like the recipe Susie posted.  I'm a hardcore lard/tallow soaper that will occasionally use some palm oil for a harder bar.  I'm also a very impatient soaper so don't like waiting for days to unmold a recipe with mostly soft oils.  Ditto on waiting months to properly cure a soap with high % of olive oil.  Just my 2 cents . . .


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> Understandable if you don't want to post percentages since you paid good money for the recipe but it's going to be much harder for us to help troubleshoot.  Can you elaborate on why you selected those particular base oils?  And what you did or did not like about the resulting soap.  I'm assuming you're asking about making bar soap using the cold process method (i.e. using sodium hydroxide not potassium) but you're not giving us much concrete info to go on.
> 
> Based solely on the ingredient list, I can pretty much say my skin probably wouldn't be a fan of that recipe but would like the recipe Susie posted.  I'm a hardcore lard/tallow soaper that will occasionally use some palm oil for a harder bar.  I'm also a very impatient soaper so don't like waiting for days to unmold a recipe with mostly soft oils.  Ditto on waiting months to properly cure a soap with high % of olive oil.  Just my 2 cents . . .



I can tell you that I am attempting to vaguely emulate a recipe that is already listed. Actually it's a creamy liquid.  The chemist chose sodium instead of potassium based on the sample.  The chemist that actually gave me a real attempt suggested (with modification):


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## IrishLass (Oct 21, 2016)

Hi BigJimmy! :wave: What type of soap are you trying to make with your ingredients - i.e., bar-type soap, liquid soap, shaving soap, etc....? That will help us to help you better.


IrishLass 

*Edited to add*- woops- looks like we were posting at the same time! Bar-type soap I take it. With the glycerin and guar gum in it, I'm guessing a shave soap?


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## doriettefarm (Oct 21, 2016)

So you're trying to make a creamy liquid soap?  And your chemist used NaOH instead of KOH?  If so, I'd be mightily pissed off to spend money on that!

ETA:  What exactly did you give the chemist a sample of?  Are you trying to dupe a product already on the market?  The more I read the more confused I get.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> So you're trying to make a creamy liquid soap?  And your chemist used NaOH instead of KOH?  If so, I'd be mightily pissed off to spend money on that!
> 
> ETA:  What exactly did you give the chemist a sample of?  Are you trying to dupe a product already on the market?  The more I read the more confused I get.




Hey, now you know my confusion and frustration... Just FYI the more expensive one that WAS WAY WORSE. There is a product that I would like to simulate, but improve on (make it more oily).  I don't care if it's creamy colored or clear.  Frankly it doesn't matter to me. 

Like my hairdresser friend told me.  When it comes to soap: there's a fine line between moisturizing and oily, well I want it to be on the oily side... for sure.  

Jim


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## lenarenee (Oct 21, 2016)

BigJimmyW13 said:


> Hey, now you know my confusion and frustration... There is a product that I would like to simulate, but improve on (make it more oily). I don't care if it's creamy colored or clear. Frankly it doesn't matter to me.
> 
> Like my hairdresser told me. When it comes to soap: there's a fine line between moisturizing and oily, well I want it to be on the oily side... for sure.
> 
> Jim


 
Do you mean you want to make a shampoo?


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## doriettefarm (Oct 21, 2016)

If you would just spill what product you're trying to tweak it would help immensely.  Not a fan of guessing games but I can only assume you're trying to make a Dr Bronner liquid soap dupe or a shampoo.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

lenarenee said:


> Do you mean you want to make a shampoo?



It is a *very* oily hair wash, yes.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> If you would just spill what product you're trying to tweak it would help immensely.  Not a fan of guessing games but I can only assume you're trying to make a Dr Bronner liquid soap dupe.



I know that would be easy on your part.  I would be glad to do so in private with restriction, but I will say, it has nothing to do with Dr Bronner Soap.

Before I posted, I did a search for what dupe I am posting about and it did not show up.   So I don't feel comfortable posting it.


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## doriettefarm (Oct 21, 2016)

BigJimmyW13 said:


> I know that would be easy on your part.  I would be glad to do so in private with restriction, but I will say, it has nothing to do with Dr Bronner Soap.
> 
> Before I posted, I did a search for what dupe I am posting about and it did not show up.



No, it would be easy on your part to just state the product instead of beating around the bush.  You came here for help but are expecting us to do all the work.  There's nothing wrong with trying to dupe a product . . . we've all done it a million times.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> No, it would be easy on your part to just state the product instead of beating around the bush.  You came here for help but are expecting us to do all the work.  There's nothing wrong with trying to dupe a product . . . we've all done it a million times.



You're right, I'm sorry, it is easier for me, but that is almost the literal ingredients list.  Hence, the double Essential oils on the list.  You're right, would it help me?  Indefinitely.  However, Call me cautious, but I won't.  Like I responded previously, I will privately give more information.


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## doriettefarm (Oct 21, 2016)

I'm not curious enough to continue this discussion outside the group.  I think the knowledge could benefit others and don't see the harm in trying to dupe something you love while adding your own tweaks.  Anyway my last piece of advice before I peace out of this thread is to review Susan Barclay's blog.  She is a wealth of info regarding product formulation and a go-to source of mine.  http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2011/04/duplicating-products-introduction.html


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 21, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> I'm not curious enough to continue this discussion outside the group.  I think the knowledge could benefit others and don't see the harm in trying to dupe something you love while adding your own tweaks.  Anyway my last piece of advice before I peace out of this thread is to review Susan Barclay's blog.  She is a wealth of info regarding product formulation and a go-to source of mine.  http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2011/04/duplicating-products-introduction.html




Actually, I have no problem with furthering this discussion openly, but I am excessively cautious to name the product openly.  Maybe because I'm semi new to the business of reproducing other products without actually infringing on them.


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## lenarenee (Oct 21, 2016)

Ah. Good clue. I think I know what you mean.

If you're willing to take the time to learn, this website has tons of info on how to make bath and body products.
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/  You may have to hit a local library for dependable internet.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 22, 2016)

Yeah, you're going to have to name it or bear with a lot of contradicting information. 

"More oily than a product which I won't name" is a hard ask. Unless we know how oily the original product is, how can we suggest what to do to make it more oily?

The fact that you paid people to do this and you're being so cagey makes me suspect that you want to sell this product, which stops me from helping because if you want to sell a product then you should be experienced enough in this area to know how to tweak the recipe - if you don't know how something works, you shouldn't sell it. Regardless of what the product is.


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## shunt2011 (Oct 22, 2016)

I'm going to have to agree with the others. You seem to want members to create a recipe for you so you can go off to sell it with  little work on your part.   You really need to do the research on why a product contains each ingredient.  Your vagueness is going to turn many away.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 22, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> I'm going to have to agree with the others. You seem to want members to create a recipe for you so you can go off to sell it with  little work on your part.   You really need to do the research on why a product contains each ingredient.  Your vagueness is going to turn many away.



I know why the product contains each ingredient.  It's a matter of when I attempt to recreate it, it doesn't go so smoothly.. I'm new to soap making, not new to most of the ingredients that go into it.  On the vagueness, once again.  I am cautious of naming it, but as doriettefarm stated, "you'd think that lush would come after us".


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## doriettefarm (Oct 22, 2016)

If that's the exact ingredient list and it's a creamy liquid, my best guess is that it's a liquid soap made with KOH, CO, OO & jojoba oils.  The liquids used would be water, aloe vera & glycerin.  The additional oils that aren't saponified should be the superfat.  The guar gum is a thickener probably added after dilution of the soap paste along with the essential oils.  

Check out IrishLass' method of making liquid soap, I think it would be a good read for you.  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974

The shampoo recipes on Susan's blog are all detergent based so I don't think that's what you're attempting to recreate.

ETA:  I think your chemists may be going the wrong direction using NaOH instead of KOH.  Did they give you a reason for doing so?


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 22, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> If that's the exact ingredient list and it's a creamy liquid, my best guess is that it's a liquid soap made with KOH, CO, OO & jojoba oils.  The liquids used would be water, aloe vera & glycerin.  The additional oils that aren't saponified should be the superfat.  The guar gum is a thickener probably added after dilution of the soap paste along with the essential oils.
> 
> Check out IrishLass' method of making liquid soap, I think it would be a good read for you.  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974
> 
> ...



I sent him a sample of the original product and that's what he decided "based on what it looks like and feels like".  Definitely not going the detergent based route.  The book I started reading recently was talking about making a paste first and then diluting it down.  I will have to read a bit further in that chapter.  Here's the recipe that he sent me in better detail:


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## doriettefarm (Oct 22, 2016)

Cool, thanks for posting the details it really does help.  I've never tried to make a liquid soap with a NaOH solution and think most folks here that have tried it were not happy with the results.  Pretty sure I remember comments that the outcome was a gloppy, snotty mess.  Was your result anything like that?

I have used a combo lye solution (more KOH than NaOH) to make cream soap and shaving soap.  In my experience KOH is the only way to go for a liquid soap.

I do have a question about the original product since I've never used it and you mentioned wanting a more oily feel.  Does the unsaponified oil separate from the soapy portion?  I guess what I'm getting at is do you have to shake it before using?  IrishLass' method of superfatting after the cook requires PS80 to keep the superfat from separating out.  So this is where I'm a little puzzled by the original ingredient list.

I would consider your Phase C the superfatting stage but your chemist used mainly glycerin instead of oils.  That could also be a reason the end result doesn't feel anything like the original.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 22, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> Cool, thanks for posting the details it really does help.  I've never tried to make a liquid soap with a NaOH solution and think most folks here that have tried it were not happy with the results.  Pretty sure I remember comments that the outcome was a gloppy, snotty mess.  Was your result anything like that?
> 
> I have used a combo lye solution (more KOH than NaOH) to make cream soap and shaving soap.  In my experience KOH is the only way to go for a liquid soap.
> 
> ...



The first attempt resulted in an oily glop, yes.  I assumed I overcooked it so I re-attempted it and ended up with a mixture that separated almost immediately. Those are the 2 results I have achieved with this recipe. One way or the other.  Usually resulting in a mixture that separates.   I have had the original product since May-ish.  It has not separated as of today.  I'm definitely not looking to sell a shake before use shampoo.  If it were just for me, that'd be just fine.  If I were to swap the sodium for potassium, how much would I use instead and in what concentration?


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## doriettefarm (Oct 22, 2016)

I wouldn't want a shake-before-use shampoo either and that's why the original ingredient list has me slightly stumped.  In order to selectively superfat (using the unsaponified oils from the product ingredient list), I don't see how it's possible without using something like PS80 to prevent separation.  

I typically use a built-in superfat of 3% for my liquid soaps.  More than that can make the soap cloudy when diluted and some folks don't like that.  So far I haven't attempted to selectively superfat a liquid soap after cooking which is why I suggested reading IrishLass's thread.  I think selectively superfatting after cooking the paste may give you more of the oily quality you're shooting for.  Also think I might use a blend of CO, OO & Castor for the base oils and save the jojoba for superfatting as it's high in unsaponifiable material anyway. 

I use a 3:1 water to KOH ratio.  I dissolve the KOH in an equal amount of distilled water and then use glycerin for the remaining 2 parts of liquid.  This seems to produce a thicker soap once diluted.  

The amount of KOH will depend on your mix of base oils.  I would highly recommend learning how to use a lye calculator (soapee.com is my favorite for all soap types).  It will crunch all the numbers for you.  Just select the purity of your KOH (90% is pretty standard but can vary depending on supplier), set your superfat % and select your base oils from the list.  I always work in percentages because it makes recipes easier to scale up & down.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 22, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> I wouldn't want a shake-before-use shampoo either and that's why the original ingredient list has me slightly stumped.  In order to selectively superfat (using the unsaponified oils from the product ingredient list), I don't see how it's possible without using something like PS80 to prevent separation.
> 
> I typically use a built-in superfat of 3% for my liquid soaps.  More than that can make the soap cloudy when diluted and some folks don't like that.  So far I haven't attempted to selectively superfat a liquid soap after cooking which is why I suggested reading IrishLass's thread.  I think selectively superfatting after cooking the paste may give you more of the oily quality you're shooting for.  Also think I might use a blend of CO, OO & Castor for the base oils and save the jojoba for superfatting as it's high in unsaponifiable material anyway.
> 
> ...



Of course one of the other issues that I run into is lack of experience.  I don't know what this should look like when it's ready.  I know the old zap test from my grandma, but that doesn't tell me what I did wrong on the basis of looks.  I will likely try to contact him and propose the changes that you suggested.  Potassium and swapping the jojoba.  I'm definitely pulling my hair out over here.  I promise you, I'm not here for lack of trying... There's just some fundamental things that I have missed and I don't know what they are.  You mentioned the soapee calculator.  I went to that before and was kind of lost on how to use that thing. It might as well been in Russian.


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## lenarenee (Oct 22, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> I wouldn't want a shake-before-use shampoo either and that's why the original ingredient list has me slightly stumped.  In order to selectively superfat (using the unsaponified oils from the product ingredient list), I don't see how it's possible without using something like PS80 to prevent separation.



Is it possible that PS80 or equivalent was piggybacked with another ingredient?
Therefore not listed on the label? You know, how some companies don't list a preservative on their lotion label, but it was pre-included in another additive they used?


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## doriettefarm (Oct 22, 2016)

Since you lack the necessary knowledge and experience, I would highly suggest reading everything possible in the Liquid Soap forum.  You will learn thru the trial and error of others and save yourself time and money, I promise.  Did you read IrishLass' thread that I linked?  If not, please start there.  I did a quick search and also found one of Susie's tutorials on how to use the soapee calculator (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58840&highlight=soapee+tutorial&page=2).  

There info is here at your fingertips but you can't expect a spoon-feeding.  I'm trying my best to help without spelling out a recipe for your chemist.  You really need a basic understanding of the process along with some sense of what different ingredients will bring to the table.  Do some reading and play around with the soapee calc . . . then come back with a proposed recipe and we'll be happy to give you feedback.

lenarenee - I was wondering the same thing regarding the original product label and PS80.  Lush tends to disguise ingredients that way too.


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## lenarenee (Oct 22, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> Since you lack the necessary knowledge and experience, I would highly suggest reading everything possible in the Liquid Soap forum.  You will learn thru the trial and error of others and save yourself time and money, I promise.  Did you read IrishLass' thread that I linked?  If not, please start there.  I did a quick search and also found one of Susie's tutorials on how to use the soapee calculator (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58840&highlight=soapee+tutorial&page=2).
> 
> There info is here at your fingertips but you can't expect a spoon-feeding.  I'm trying my best to help without spelling out a recipe for your chemist.  You really need a basic understanding of the process along with some sense of what different ingredients will bring to the table.  Do some reading and play around with the soapee calc . . . then come back with a proposed recipe and we'll be happy to give you feedback.
> 
> lenarenee - I was wondering the same thing regarding the original product label and PS80.  Lush tends to disguise ingredients that way too.



PS80 isn't a "natural" sounding ingredient so they may have tried to be deceptive. 

To the OP, it might help you to make Irish Lass's soap recipe to get your feet wet and see how the process goes.  Plus...its a gorgeous and wonderful soap!


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## doriettefarm (Oct 22, 2016)

lenarenee said:


> PS80 isn't a "natural" sounding ingredient so they may have tried to be deceptive.
> 
> To the OP, it might help you to make Irish Lass's soap recipe to get your feet wet and see how the process goes.  Plus...its a gorgeous and wonderful soap!



I totally agree with this advice!  I've been dying to try IL's recipe so it's going to be the next liquid soap I make.  That exercise will give you an understanding of the process itself.  You can use that soap as a jumping off point to start tweaking your mix of base oils.  I would go for the CO, OO, Castor combo I suggested for your second batch and use jojoba plus whatever mix of other oils as the superfat.  I would use IL's method of superfatting after the cook along with some PS80 . . . it's your choice on the stearic acid.  That really depends on if you want the creamy, opaque look in the finished product.  It might contribute some to the thickness of the final product which could also be achieved with guar gum.  I'd probably try without the stearic first because jojoba is really a wax ester and that plus stearic might leave a waxy feel on the beard.


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## lenarenee (Oct 22, 2016)

And it's just simply a lovely, lovely soap. I don't share it with people because I don't want to use a preservative. But people always comment on the beautiful golden soap at the sinks.

One day I'll try her pearly soap!


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## doriettefarm (Oct 22, 2016)

I also wanted to throw one more thing out there for the OP and forum to chew on.  I understand the wanting to be 'all natural' aspect and to some maybe that means not using detergents.  So here's what's really bugging me . . . it's the idea of using a liquid soap base as a shampoo when I've heard so many times that the high ph of soap isn't good for hair.  I don't have a beard so maybe different things are desired for that application.  Any other guys care to chime in?  Also curious what folks with salon experience think about it.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 23, 2016)

lenarenee said:


> Is it possible that PS80 or equivalent was piggybacked with another ingredient?
> Therefore not listed on the label? You know, how some companies don't list a preservative on their lotion label, but it was pre-included in another additive they used?



I know that they clearly are hiding whether the used NaOH or KOH by listing the oils as saponified, so anything is possible.  I know that there are plenty of companies that don't list their ingredients list 100% as well.  



doriettefarm said:


> Since you lack the necessary knowledge and experience, I would highly suggest reading everything possible in the Liquid Soap forum.  You will learn thru the trial and error of others and save yourself time and money, I promise.  Did you read IrishLass' thread that I linked?  If not, please start there.  I did a quick search and also found one of Susie's tutorials on how to use the soapee calculator (http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58840&highlight=soapee+tutorial&page=2).
> 
> There info is here at your fingertips but you can't expect a spoon-feeding.  I'm trying my best to help without spelling out a recipe for your chemist.  You really need a basic understanding of the process along with some sense of what different ingredients will bring to the table.  Do some reading and play around with the soapee calc . . . then come back with a proposed recipe and we'll be happy to give you feedback.
> 
> lenarenee - I was wondering the same thing regarding the original product label and PS80.  Lush tends to disguise ingredients that way too.



If it seems like I'm looking for a spoon feeding here, I'm sorry if I have come off that way.  Not my intention at all.  If I were paying you, then I would expect it.  There's a difference.  I am not a something for nothing person, if I were, I wouldn't have paid a couple of chemists to begin with.  After paying them though, I have come to the conclusion that if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself. 

I personally know how valuable a good forum is to whatever project or task you're trying to accomplish.  I went from basic engine knowledge to building a motorcycle in my kitchen in college with mostly basic hand tools. All with the help of a forum.  It was a rewarding and fulfilling experience.  



lenarenee said:


> PS80 isn't a "natural" sounding ingredient so they may have tried to be deceptive.
> 
> To the OP, it might help you to make Irish Lass's soap recipe to get your feet wet and see how the process goes.  Plus...its a gorgeous and wonderful soap!



This is EXACTLY what I was planning on doing.  Her recipe seems to be idiot proof the way she lays it out, so I'm going to attempt it this week, once I get the necessary ingredients that I don't already have.  



doriettefarm said:


> I totally agree with this advice!  I've been dying to try IL's recipe so it's going to be the next liquid soap I make.  That exercise will give you an understanding of the process itself.  You can use that soap as a jumping off point to start tweaking your mix of base oils.  I would go for the CO, OO, Castor combo I suggested for your second batch and use jojoba plus whatever mix of other oils as the superfat.  I would use IL's method of superfatting after the cook along with some PS80 . . . it's your choice on the stearic acid.  That really depends on if you want the creamy, opaque look in the finished product.  It might contribute some to the thickness of the final product which could also be achieved with guar gum.  I'd probably try without the stearic first because jojoba is really a wax ester and that plus stearic might leave a waxy feel on the beard.



Yeah, I knew that jojoba is actually technically a wax (we use it in our beard oils). I have a hairdresser friend who told me once that there is a fine line between moisturizing and greasy when it comes to soaps.  While that may be true.  What doesn't always work for hair, does for beards.  For instance, most people don't want their hair to be "greasy" because then it looks oily and flat.  That's the EXACT thing you want with the beard.  You want it to have that shine and the extra moisture, plus you want it to be "flat".  I don't have a better word for it.  That extra weight in the hair helps it to stay in place and seem longer.    



doriettefarm said:


> I also wanted to throw one more thing out there for the OP and forum to chew on.  I understand the wanting to be 'all natural' aspect and to some maybe that means not using detergents.  So here's what's really bugging me . . . it's the idea of using a liquid soap base as a shampoo when I've heard so many times that the high ph of soap isn't good for hair.  I don't have a beard so maybe different things are desired for that application.  Any other guys care to chime in?  Also curious what folks with salon experience think about it.



I know what you're getting at.  I try to tell people that "all natural" isn't necessarily a good thing.  Cyanide, belladonna, hemlock, curare, poisonous mushrooms, snake venom are "all natural" that doesn't mean they are good... When I first started I was going to go the route of not doing all natural, but it was stalling half of the conversations I would have with people.  So I stopped going that route.  Mainly, I am trying to stay away from detergents and preservatives.  Not because I'm against most of them, per se, but because the people that buy my products are.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 23, 2016)

Any suggestions on KOH brands?  I was going to buy this KOH, but after reading some reviews I realized there is a slight consistency issue on purity.  Any thoughts?  If you read the first 4 star review I believe that is the one that talks about the purity.


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## lenarenee (Oct 23, 2016)

That is quite a range of purity levels on the label, isn't it?  I'd look for a company that has a better idea of the purity level when they pack it. Every time you open the bottle it's exposed to moisture, which changes the ratio.

Many people here buy from thelyeguy.com and only have great things to say.
I've bought from Amazon - Duda's Red Hot Devil, and from Brambleberry.


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## doriettefarm (Oct 23, 2016)

BigJimmyW13 said:


> Any suggestions on KOH brands?  I was going to buy this KOH, but after reading some reviews I realized there is a slight consistency issue on purity.  Any thoughts?  If you read the first 4 star review I believe that is the one that talks about the purity.



I'm leery of ordering lye from Amazon.  I've heard rave reviews about Duda Diesel and will probably order from them next time I need lye since they're pretty local.  https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=potassium+hydroxide

I've also ordered from the Chemistry Store and been happy with the quality.  http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_G-R-Potassium_Hydroxide.html

I'm glad to hear you're going to give IL's recipe a shot.  I think if you get the basic process down, you'll be better able to direct your chemists and get the results your looking for sooner.  Or you may find that you really enjoy soap making, formulating and having total control over the end result . . . that wouldn't be a bad thing either.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 23, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> I'm leery of ordering lye from Amazon.  I've heard rave reviews about Duda Diesel and will probably order from them next time I need lye since they're pretty local.  https://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=potassium+hydroxide
> 
> I've also ordered from the Chemistry Store and been happy with the quality.  http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_G-R-Potassium_Hydroxide.html
> 
> I'm glad to hear you're going to give IL's recipe a shot.  I think if you get the basic process down, you'll be better able to direct your chemists and get the results your looking for sooner.  Or you may find that you really enjoy soap making, formulating and having total control over the end result . . . that wouldn't be a bad thing either.



I planned on making the soap myself all along, I hired a chemist to give me a starting block on reproducing the other product.  It was never an intention to have someone else produce the soap. Which as almost all of you have said, the original product ingredient's list doesn't really make sense.  It didn't really to him either.  Also, not sure why he chose to use NaOH instead of KOH, but he did.  Now I'm of course sitting here without any sort of soap product.  I'm going to start with IL's recipe and then I should have a better understanding of what I need to do and look for.  I reattempted the formula he sent me last night again.  It did separate again, but when I hit it with the stick blender again, once it cooled, it turned into almost solid foam.  Does that sound right?


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## doriettefarm (Oct 23, 2016)

I'm curious what this NaOH concoction looks like.  Would you mind posting a pic?  

If the previous attempts resulted in an oily mess, my gut feeling is the NaOH solution was too weak to completely saponify the oil mixture.  But I'm not really motivated to crunch the numbers by hand and figure it out.  Also not sure what's up with the foam unless you just stickblended so much air into it that it turned frothy.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 23, 2016)

Here's a picture of the result after I added some water and blended it again.  The foam is very, very thick.


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## doriettefarm (Oct 23, 2016)

Do you have a 'before' pic?  And can you get a pic from the side so we're able to see what's underneath the foam?  

I'm betting it will separate again if you let it sit undisturbed.  If it was oily & separated before you added more water & stickblended, I still think there wasn't enough lye to saponify the oils.  Even when I do a 3% built in superfat I don't get any separation or weeping oils in my soap paste.  

It's almost like your chemist is trying to skip the paste step by cooking and diluting at the same time.  I've never tried this approach even with KOH so can't really give any constructive advice other than ditch the NaOH recipe.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 23, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> Do you have a 'before' pic?  And can you get a pic from the side so we're able to see what's underneath the foam?
> 
> I'm betting it will separate again if you let it sit undisturbed.  If it was oily & separated before you added more water & stickblended, I still think there wasn't enough lye to saponify the oils.  Even when I do a 3% built in superfat I don't get any separation or weeping oils in my soap paste.
> 
> It's almost like your chemist is trying to skip the paste step by cooking and diluting at the same time.  I've never tried this approach even with KOH so can't really give any constructive advice other than ditch the NaOH recipe.




I don't have a before picture as I figured it a complete failure, but the whole thing is just the foam.  All the way through.  This is a picture of the bottom.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 23, 2016)

It's been sitting all day, but the foam really is thick, thick.  That spoon doesn't move when I turn it on it's side.  It's not solid, but very thick.


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## doriettefarm (Oct 23, 2016)

Well dang, that is very bizzare!  I wasn't expecting to see foam all the way to the bottom of the container . . . thought it was more like the frothy head on a freshly poured beer.  I guess you have some sort of soap there but it definitely doesn't look like shampoo consistency.  I think the before pics would have been more helpful for troubleshooting purposes.  

I wonder what would happen if you spritz the foam with rubbing alcohol?  Sorta like spraying the tops of m&p soap to break up any surface bubbles.  Might be interesting to see what happens . . . I wouldn't be too keen to use it in it's present state so not like you have much to lose.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 23, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> Well dang, that is very bizzare!  I wasn't expecting to see foam all the way to the bottom of the container . . . thought it was more like the frothy head on a freshly poured beer.  I guess you have some sort of soap there but it definitely doesn't look like shampoo consistency.  I think the before pics would have been more helpful for troubleshooting purposes.
> 
> I wonder what would happen if you spritz the foam with rubbing alcohol?  Sorta like spraying the tops of m&p soap to break up any surface bubbles.  Might be interesting to see what happens . . . I wouldn't be too keen to use it in it's present state so not like you have much to lose.



I thought about that as well.  Although I seemingly can't find my rubbing alcohol.  So when I go to town tomorrow I will pick some up and maybe try the recipe again.  I should also add that I did a taste test and it definitely tasted like soap.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 23, 2016)

Alright, so I went ahead and attempted to make it again.. Don't judge me on my hotplate's appearance. The first picture is right after adding Phase B to Phase A.  The 2nd picture is after cutting the heat and adding Phase C to Phase AB.  There is definitely a difference in color and it is beginning to form bubbles, it seems pretty thin still, but we will see.  I'm waiting until the temp of the solution reaches around 40C before adding the essential oils.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Oct 24, 2016)

For now, I would stop trying to make this product. As you sell, please do not sell any soap-based products that you make until you've been playing with them for at least a year - this gives you time to get experience, tweak things to where you are happy, and to see what happens to year-old soap (always keep a bit for history) - as in, has it gone bad in that time.

So play with the gls. Maybe try your hand at other types to see what they are like. Tweak and learn and explore. Then come back to selling this product. If you start selling it before you have experience with soap, you are doing your customers a disservice


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## doriettefarm (Oct 24, 2016)

I took the percentages from your chemist's recipe and attempted to calculate the oil percentages for the total oil weight instead of total recipe weight.  This was necessary to determine if the amount of NaOH you are using is enough to completely saponify the oils.  I guess I wanted to see if your chemist at least knew how to properly calculate the lye amount even if it was the wrong type of lye.  

Anyhoo, I plugged the oil percentages into soapee using a 0% superfat and 20% NaOH concentration.  The amount of NaOH soapee calculated was approximately 1 gram less than what your chemist appeared to use.  That's assuming 100% purity of NaOH.

The other interesting tidbit is that soapee also calculated the water amount needed for the 20% NaOH solution within 5 grams.  So basically the conclusion I'm drawing is this . . . you have an extremely diluted version of a 0% superfat bar soap (that probably would have taken forever to cure in bar form because of the water amount).  I roughly figure the final dilution ratio of your concoction to be 1 part soap and 2 parts water.

So again you're back to square 1.  Why do you think your results are going to drastically differ using the same recipe & process each time?  I will repeat my comment from very early in the thread . . . KOH is what you want for a liquid soap base.  NaOH will produce inferior results which you have repeatedly proven.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 24, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> I took the percentages from your chemist's recipe and attempted to calculate the oil percentages for the total oil weight instead of total recipe weight.  This was necessary to determine if the amount of NaOH you are using is enough to completely saponify the oils.  I guess I wanted to see if your chemist at least knew how to properly calculate the lye amount even if it was the wrong type of lye.
> 
> Anyhoo, I plugged the oil percentages into soapee using a 0% superfat and 20% NaOH concentration.  The amount of NaOH soapee calculated was approximately 1 gram less than what your chemist appeared to use.  That's assuming 100% purity of NaOH.
> 
> ...



I was actually just remaking it so you could see the before and after, not necessarily trying to make this formula work.  I also am not using the preservative Euxyl PE 9010. That is the one difference from the recipe.


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## doriettefarm (Oct 24, 2016)

I don't think that tiny amount of preservative will make a bit of difference in the final product look & feel.  Adding more guar gum could thicken it further but I've never used it and don't know the max%.  Again, I think you'll be much happier with the result once you try the KOH version.  Also keep in mind that most of us are used to making a paste then diluting instead of diluting during the cook process.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 24, 2016)

doriettefarm said:


> I don't think that tiny amount of preservative will make a bit of difference in the final product look & feel.  Adding more guar gum could thicken it further but I've never used it and don't know the max%.  Again, I think you'll be much happier with the result once you try the KOH version.  Also keep in mind that most of us are used to making a paste then diluting instead of diluting during the cook process.



I'm sure you're right!  I definitely plan on giving Irish Lass's recipe a go.  It'll be a good learning experience and I'll be able to see the process the liquid takes to saponify.


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## BigJimmyW13 (Oct 28, 2016)

So, I am going to backtrack from liquid soap, for now, since it is supposedly  more difficult than bar soap to produce.  Apparently, I've been trying to drive a car before crawling.  :mrgreen:  Any suggestions on a simple,  gentle and moisturizing bar soap recipes that I should begin with/attempt?


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## Susie (Oct 28, 2016)

1.  Liquid soap is no more difficult than bar soap.  It is different, that's all.  Try IrishLass' recipe and method (except mix the KOH with an equal weight water, then add the balance in glycerin to the oils).

2.  I already gave you a simple, easy, cheap recipe that is gentle and not stripping.  Soap cleans, it does not moisturize.  But some soaps strip more of your natural oils than others.  That recipe is not stripping.


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## shunt2011 (Oct 28, 2016)

^^^^
This exactly.    Soap is a wash off product. Will not condition or moisturize.  However, it can be formulated not to strip the hyde from your skin. Follow Susie's recipe.  

Start with liquid soap, just follow the recipe from IL and you should be fine and dandy.


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## doriettefarm (Oct 28, 2016)

Ditto to Susie & shunt's advice.  I don't think liquid soap is more difficult than bar soap if you use IrishLass' process.  You really don't need to cook liquid soap like some folks do plus you don't have to wait for it to cure like a bar soap.  It may seem more involved because of the dilution process but once you get your ratios down it's all good.  I actually prefer LS for naughty FOs (florals/spices that rice or accelerate in CP) and you can get away with using much less fragrance than in CP.


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## Susie (Oct 28, 2016)

And liquid soap is wonderful to use citrus EOs in.


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