# any fragrance advice



## sunflowerb (Dec 30, 2016)

i'm sure this has been asked and answered but I had trouble searching for this in the forum. 
is there any real way to make my scent last without using fragrance oils? is there such a thing as 100% natural fragrance oils that are different than essential oils? I've also tried coffee and tea instead of water with my lye. I just used my coffee one and the bar smells decent enough but the suds have a sorta chemically smell. Scent struggle is real!


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## shunt2011 (Dec 30, 2016)

Nope, you need to use essential or fragrance oils. I started with EO but wasn't happy plus once I started selling my customers wanted scents that weren't able to be achieved with EO. So, now my line is primarily FO with some EO.


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## sunflowerb (Dec 30, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> Nope, you need to use essential or fragrance oils. I started with EO but wasn't happy plus once I started selling my customers wanted scents that weren't able to be achieved with EO. So, now my line is primarily FO with some EO.



I've been using EO's but not too happy myself. Was hoping it was possible to get something to smell good for a long time without switching to FO's


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## kumudini (Dec 30, 2016)

just to stress the point that's already been made, you do need either EO or FO for a nice smelling soap. some of my EO soaps do retain their smell for a long time, so you just need to experiment and see what sticks.


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## cmzaha (Dec 30, 2016)

shunt2011 said:


> Nope, you need to use essential or fragrance oils. I started with EO but wasn't happy plus once I started selling my customers wanted scents that weren't able to be achieved with EO. So, now my line is primarily FO with some EO.


I agree, I am one that also uses FO's more than EO's. My customers want quite strong sticker fo's. I really do not know why so many do not want synthetic fo some of us, like me, are much better off with synthetic in place of EO's of which I am allergic to several. Even lavenders has been known to bother me. When I used to take vitamins I had to always use synthetic vitamins.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Dec 31, 2016)

To break it down- 

The FO might be 5% of your oil weight, so it's less than 5% of your bar, so less than 5% of the amount of soap on your skin. For the total FO. 

How much of that FO is actually harmful? 100% of it? Not likely. So we have a % of 5% of the soap being harmful in some way. 

How much of that, if anything, penetrates the skin? Some will say none, some will say some, but I doubt any would say 100%. So we have a % of a % of 5% of the soap on your skin which may possibly be of concern in some cases. 

Compare that to the fact that eos can be genuinely dangerous (citrus eos can sensitise the skin, etc) then it doesn't really make sense to not use FOs


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## LilyJo (Dec 31, 2016)

I would only  add (because its something we considered and looked into as well) that EO appear a better option (natural, unprocessed etc) vs synthetic FOs but in reality the amount of land, crops and water used to produce EO for something that in reality has little or no cosmetic benefit  is hard to sustain.

FO are often naturally derived and there are a number now that are produced to be allergen free - so many EO contain natural allergens that many people react to. Dont forget that many so called natural products claim to use EO but when you check their ingredients they are a combination of EO and FO usually because of the stickability.

I would say consider good quality FO (buy the best you can afford from the most reputable company).


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## Susie (Dec 31, 2016)

In the last year I started using FOs.  Before that, I strictly used EOs out of fear of allergic reactions.  I only purchase pthalate free FOs, and so far I have not reacted to a single FO.  So, take my opinions based on that.

FOs offer scents my EOs can not replicate.  

Some FOs are really, really popular (Warm Vanilla Sugar from WSP).  

Some are not (most of the pine/evergreen scents from WSP).  

Some EOs don't stick (citrus), where the FOs close to them do.  

Some things are just better in EOs (cinnamon bark and clove bud). 

My most popular scents seem to be a combination of FOs and EOs. 

FOs are FAR cheaper than EOs!


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## Seawolfe (Dec 31, 2016)

I'll play the other side  I really dont care for FO's. Even the ones that I KNOW people love smell really perfumey to me, or just chemically. I only know of 3 FO's that I actually like.
I do all my scenting with EO's - I purchase the less expensive ones and play a lot with different blends and I find ways to help things stick (using a good base note, using enough EO's, soaking the EO's in clay or other material Im adding to my soap). 

Here are some good links with blend ideas:
http://joliechose.tripod.com/joliechosearomatherapy/id17.html
http://soapteacher.blogspot.com/2010/10/suggested-essential-oil-blends-for-soap.html


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## Gerry (Dec 31, 2016)

The two FOs I love most but I can only find from a single vendor cost more than most of my EOs, including Lavender EO.  These FOs cost about the same as the dark patchouli EO from NDA.  Some say you get what you pay for.  I guess this is one of those times.  The much cheaper fruity-type FOs go down well with friends and family though.


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## penelopejane (Dec 31, 2016)

Seawolfe said:


> I'll play the other side  I really dont care for FO's. Even the ones that I KNOW people love smell really perfumey to me, or just chemically. I only know of 3 FO's that I actually like.
> I do all my scenting with EO's - I purchase the less expensive ones and play a lot with different blends and I find ways to help things stick (using a good base note, using enough EO's, soaking the EO's in clay or other material Im adding to my soap).
> 
> Here are some good links with blend ideas:
> ...



How much EO do you use ppo or does it depend on the blend? 
I am hesitant to waste any by putting too little in my first EO soap.


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## Gerry (Dec 31, 2016)

penelopejane said:


> How much EO do you use ppo or does it depend on the blend?
> I am hesitant to waste any by putting too little in my first EO soap.



You're going to hate this answer:  It depends. Lol

Not only does it depend on your own nose and also the specific EO you're using, but even the same EO from different vendors will need different amounts.  I found it's best to work with near sample sizes first and small batches for testing purposes.  After awhile you'll probably settle on half a dozen or so that you'll use regularly and know exactly what to expect from them.

Anywhere from half an oz to a maximum of a full oz PPO is a good starting point depending on the EO.  Yes that's a HUGE range.  I'd suggest if you have a specific EO in mind, ask here how much others use.  That way you can find a good starting point and then tailor it to match your own taste... err smell


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## penelopejane (Jan 1, 2017)

Gerry said:


> You're going to hate this answer:  It depends. Lol
> 
> Not only does it depend on your own nose and also the specific EO you're using, but even the same EO from different vendors will need different amounts.  I found it's best to work with near sample sizes first and small batches for testing purposes.



I KNEW it!!!!!!!!  More trial and error....


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## Seawolfe (Jan 1, 2017)

penelopejane said:


> How much EO do you use ppo or does it depend on the blend?
> I am hesitant to waste any by putting too little in my first EO soap.



I find that the most common error with EO's is people using too little. 

Use the Brambleberry fragrance calculator! It gives you a good place to start and a choice of low / medium / strong. https://www.brambleberry.com/pages/Fragrance-Calculator.aspx

Looking through my recipes it looks like I typically use as little as 3% PPO for strong scents like patchouli, ~ 5% for that citrus blend, and even higher for salt soaps because I'm adding 80% salt. But the trick is, you do not want each individual EO to exceed guidelines. Here is a good article about that with guidelines: http://www.modernsoapmaking.com/essential-oil-usage-rates-ifra-guidelines/


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## Gerry (Jan 1, 2017)

Seawolfe said:


> Use the Brambleberry fragrance calculator! It gives you a good place to start and a choice of low / medium / strong. https://www.brambleberry.com/pages/Fragrance-Calculator.aspx



I agree that it can give someone a place to start (like medium), but in my opinion its use should come with a caveat. Here is why:

Nearly all the EOs with a few exceptions show the exact same amounts for light (.44 oz ppo), medium (.68 oz ppo), and strong (.80 oz ppo).  That includes such different EOs like lemongrass, lavender, peppermint, patchouli, cedarwood, eucalyptus, juniper berry, etc. and yes... black pepper!  The ones that differ are mainly the citrus EOs which call for nearly half the amount.  What's wrong with this picture?

The components that give EOs their characteristics are volatile, meaning they evaporate into the air at room temperatures, otherwise we'd never smell them.  Those molecules actually travel into the air to our noses.  Once evaporated, they're gone.  So the strongest smelling EO soap may contain elements that evaporate very quickly and nearly overwhelm us at first, but later leaving you with a practically scentless soap after being on a curing rack for a couple months.

Also the calculator doesn't take into account individual differences in actual scent, and how they're received by average people at various strengths. For example, a "strong" lavender @ .8 oz ppo might be great in a bar after a 2 month cure.  The same strong amount of patchouli or eucalyptus might be sickening to some.  Or the opposite may be true.  Some of these scents are easier to take at higher levels than others.

Not the mention the whole light, medium, and strong levels are rather subjective, and cover as big a range as I mentioned (100%)!  That's why I think it best to post a question about the specific EO and let a dozen people chime in with the amounts they use, along with comments on how the bar smells once completely cured and sitting around for awhile.  Of course do a forum thread search first in case such an EO has already been talked about at length.


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## Steve85569 (Jan 1, 2017)

In my limited experience. EO's stick ( not citrus) in CP pretty well. CPOP I generally go to FO's that have a high flash point listed so I know that the FO will be there in the morning.

It' about personal choices and how much you want to use- if any -of the available resources.


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## dixiedragon (Jan 4, 2017)

EOs and FOs are the only way to get a strong scent. I have gotten a very mild scent by using ground spices in the bar. Your nose has to be touching the bar, but the scent is there. I usually hot process those and add the spices before the cook, which seems to help boost that a bit. Downside - the spices are slightly scratchy.

I also get a very slight sweet scent when I use honey and beeswax. Again, nose touching the bar.


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## Gerry (Jan 4, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> EOs and FOs are the only way to get a strong scent.



Are you suggesting the pine tar soap I have curing doesn't have a strong scent? Hahaha... just kidding :twisted:


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## lenarenee (Jan 4, 2017)

penelopejane said:


> I KNEW it!!!!!!!!  More trial and error....



Yes, sorry.  But if it makes you feel any better - learning about candles is much much worse. :headbanging:


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## dixiedragon (Jan 4, 2017)

Pine tar is it's own special category. Add neem to that!


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## Millie (Jan 4, 2017)

I keep getting requests for all natural floral soaps. Aargh! I wish I had a solution for you. I've had luck usung middle note EOs at one oz ppo and base notes at .8 oz ppo. You could probably use less for some, but  I judge by what my dad's old nose can still smell after a few months on the rack. Good luck! Oh, and I've given up trying top note EOs. They nearly vanish after three months.

P.s. check of course that the amount used is safe


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