# Persimmon soap?



## SmockingRN (Dec 14, 2019)

Hi, I am new to this website and to soapmaking, too.  Have really enjoyed reading all the forums!  I have a question about  Mirai Japanese  persimmon soap, advertised to remove tough body odors, esp aging odor related to a body oil called nonenol??? I never heard of nonenol, but as a nurse I am familiar with age related B.O. Anyway, this soap costs $16 for a 3.5 oz. bar.  I wondered about this...The website goes into a lot of detail about Japanese expertise in cleanliness, even going so far as to advise on how to bathe.  I am a dyed in the wool skeptic about most pseudo-scientific claims...does anyone here know if this persimmon soap is a real help?


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## Martha (Dec 14, 2019)

Can you include a link to what you read? Is this an explanation of “old people smell”?


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## Obsidian (Dec 14, 2019)

I've also read about persimmon soap in helping to remove old people smell. If I remember right, it uses persimmon leaves.

I did make soap with persimmon fruit but I used a awful scent with it and ended up having to throw it.

@Martha 
Its been a few years since I read about this but as we age, our skin produces more and more of a certain chemical. This chemical has a unpleasant smell and is resistant to removal with regular cleansers.


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## SmockingRN (Dec 14, 2019)

Martha said:


> Can you include a link to what you read? Is this an explanation of “old people smell”?


I tried to add a link but got a message saying it might be spam?  The company is Mirai Clinical and it will come up in a search for persimmon soap.


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## Martha (Dec 14, 2019)

SmockingRN said:


> I tried to add a link but got a message saying it might be spam?  The company is Mirai Clinical and it will come up in a search for persimmon soap.


I took a peek, but now want to read more about nonenal. How have I never heard that this was a real thing? Now I want to know the answer too!


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## earlene (Dec 14, 2019)

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0038110

Personally I am offended by the concept that old age smell is a bad thing.  My granddaughter has many times said she loves to get into my car because it smells like grandma.  And she says she is fond of the smell of my house.  I never gave it a lot of thought, but you know I am one of those old people and to be categorized as having an undesirable 'old people smell' is really an offensive thought.

And to say that old age and nursing home smells are one and the same is erroneous to say the least, at least in my experience.  If one goes into a nursing home where the clients are well cared for and there isn't a lot of odors of incontinence, the smells are much more pleasant than if you go into a nursing home where the smells of incontinence permeate the hallways.  I would never equate 'incontinence odors' as 'old age odors' or even necessarily as nursing home odors, other than to be concerned with the care provided.

Anyway, do take a look at that article, if you are so inclined.  I believe it provides a different point of view on the  'unpleasantness' of body odor of the elderly.


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## Martha (Dec 14, 2019)

https://www.healthline.com/health/older-people-smell-different#takeaway

This article is interesting and says that while old people do smell different, unless we know the source is old people, we don’t find the smell unpleasant. (Ageism) They cite 2 scientific articles for their findings. They also mention that the Japanese are interested in products to mask the smell, hence the persimmon. However any scented product masks the smell of the nonenol.


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## TheGecko (Dec 15, 2019)

earlene said:


> Personally I am offended by the concept that old age smell is a bad thing. My granddaughter has many times said she loves to get into my car because it smells like grandma.



As some who is approaching 60, I am also offended at the idea that older folks ‘smell bad’.  Boys smell bad...from puberty until their early twenties they reek of testosterone!


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## Martha (Dec 15, 2019)

TheGecko said:


> As some who is approaching 60, I am also offended at the idea that older folks ‘smell bad’.  Boys smell bad...from puberty until their early twenties they reek of testosterone!


The article I included a link to talks about the study taking samples of people’s body odor and sampling different age categories including teenage boys.

Quite honestly I thought this whole thing was a joke. I think we are obsessed with trying to mask people’s smells as though they are always bad. And yes, I know I’m on a soap forum. 

I think it’s really sweet that @earlene ’s granddaughter has commented on her car smelling like grandma. It means she has very positive associations. When I was looking up to see if this persimmon thing was real (and I apologize for my first post. I thought it was a hoax and certainly didn’t mean to offend anyone. I am getting close to that age myself) I found a good article. It said that we do smell different at different ages, but most people think that the smell of older people is pleasant (when the participants didn’t know who the samples came from). That just shows our bias or fear or negative conditioning towards aging. Thanks advertising.


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## earlene (Dec 15, 2019)

No, it's not you, it's the whole concept.  And I agree, it is a prejudice that is probably biased by advertising, although not entirely, I would guess.


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## TheGecko (Dec 15, 2019)

Martha said:


> I think we are obsessed with trying to mask people’s smells as though they are always bad.



I think a lot of that started when folks used a lot of perfumes and herbs to mask that they hadn't their yearly hosing down.  As cleanliness grew in popularity with the availability of soap (one upon a time only the wealthy could afford good soap), perfume makers started losing money and got into the 'hygiene' market, which as we know, is huge.  



> And yes, I know I’m on a soap forum.



Soap is about getting clean...at least for me it is.  I love the smell of my scented soaps while I'm bathing with them, but it's not how I want to smell all day.  It's the same way with my Shampoo, Conditioner, Deodorant, Lotion, etc.


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## SmockingRN (Dec 15, 2019)

TheGecko said:


> I think a lot of that started when folks used a lot of perfumes and herbs to mask that they hadn't their yearly hosing down.  As cleanliness grew in popularity with the availability of soap (one upon a time only the wealthy could afford good soap), perfume makers started losing money and got into the 'hygiene' market, which as we know, is huge.
> 
> 
> 
> Soap is about getting clean...at least for me it is.  I love the smell of my scented soaps while I'm bathing with them, but it's not how I want to smell all day.  It's the same way with my Shampoo, Conditioner, Deodorant,


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## SmockingRN (Dec 15, 2019)

I think the nonenal odor is a real thing, more noticeable in older guys.  If  the Japanese can sell a 3.5 oz  bar of soap for $16-19, maybe some of us ought to investigate. I am just a beginner, nowhere near ready to sell soap, but I would be thrilled if I could figure out how to make such a bar.  Maybe someday???


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## TheGecko (Dec 16, 2019)

SmockingRN said:


> If the Japanese can sell a 3.5 oz bar of soap for $16-19, maybe some of us ought to investigate.



I’m sure it’s a real thing, but the price of the soap means nothing because there are a lot more expensive soaps out and folks are buying them, but it doesn’t that it’s any better (or worse) than anything you or I make.  And while I may formulate a soap to help with the abundant production of testosterone, I can’t even begin to imagine how you would market a soap to us old folks without offending.


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## szaza (Dec 16, 2019)

I think there might also be a cultural aspect. I once (10-15 years ago) read an article about different things people are insecure about around the world. It compared anorexia in the west (obsession with looking skinny and desirable) to a smell obsession in some Asian countries. Some people would be so obsessed and scared their smell was offensive to someone around them it would control their lives (in a similar way how anorexia controls people's lives when it comes to eating). Obviously I don't remember every letter since I've read it so long ago, but it indicates people might be more insecure about body odor in Asian countries, which could explain why a product like that can be making money in Japan, while being considered insulting by quite a few western people. 
Also, just because something is sold for a lot of money doesn't mean it works. Sometimes making something expensive is a marketing trick to make you believe it works. 
That said, I have no idea if it would work and it would definitely be an interesting journey to find out. Just be aware it might not work and even if it does work, it probably won't be as popular where you are as it might be in Japan. 
(Also, personal opinion, I grew up around a lot of old people and like earlene's granddaughter I have a lot of good associations with the smell and therefore like it. At the same time I think I kind of understand why nurses for example would dislike the smell as it would remind them of work, but I'm not sure if that's a reason to tell older people they smell bad)


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## SmockingRN (Dec 16, 2019)

Wait, Wait, I am the old person  (65+) and here in my house resides a wonderful fellow (81 years old) who might could use such a soap.  My thinking is, I can't afford a soap that costs $16-19 per bar and maybe I could make one?   It's not that I think I smell bad, but I do believe our body's production of nonenal increases with age so I very well might, one day.  It's not an insult, it's just a biological fact of aging, for some of us.


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## Ladka (Dec 16, 2019)

SmockingRN said:


> Wait, Wait, I am the old person  (65+) ... I do believe our body's production of nonenal increases with age... It's not an insult, it's just a biological fact of aging, for some of us.


Yes, a simple biological fact for me too, not an insult.


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## szaza (Dec 16, 2019)

I think nobody here denies that nonenal makes people smell different as they age. I think the discussion is more about whether the smell of nonenal is considered undesirable (eg needing to be washed off with a special soap) or if it's fine and pleasant for some people.


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## SmockingRN (Dec 16, 2019)

szaza said:


> I think nobody here denies that nonenal makes people smell different as they age. I think the discussion is more about whether the smell of nonenal is considered undesirable (eg needing to be washed off with a special soap) or if it's fine and pleasant for some people.[/QU





szaza said:


> I think nobody here denies that nonenal makes people smell different as they age. I think the discussion is more about whether the smell of nonenal is considered undesirable (eg needing to be washed off with a special soap) or if it's fine and pleasant for some people.


 There are all kinds of odors associated with different life stages.  I myself buy and use a talcum powder because it reminds me of how my grandma smelled.  But I do not think an unpleasant odor is a good thing to have.  People have a gut reaction to odors. Bad odors make for an unpleasant reaction at a time of life when we need all the positive help we can get!


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## Obsidian (Dec 16, 2019)

szaza said:


> I think nobody here denies that nonenal makes people smell different as they age. I think the discussion is more about whether the smell of nonenal is considered undesirable (eg needing to be washed off with a special soap) or if it's fine and pleasant for some people.



I also think its cultural. Here in America things that are considered rude are also often taboo.
Its why we don't tell friends they have bad breath or offensive body odor.

Seems like in Asia, they are more open about a lot of subjects. Its a matter of science, not bad manners.

I know if I smelled bad, I'd want someone to tell me. I'd also want a effective way to remove it, not just cover it up.


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## Jackie Lo (Jan 26, 2021)

I know I'm super late to the party here, but since I have tried making kakishibu (persimmon tannin) soap, I thought I'd chip in my opinions about this, and also the topic about neonatal body odor.

I am naturally a very smelly person, and I also take care of two retired elderly people, one exhibiting an immensely pungent old-people smell, whilst the other one isn't that bad...I can only assume that this 'old people smell' is perhaps a genetic thing that only affects certain people, and not all old people in general. The fairly stinky elderly I am taking care of is being stingy and refuses to use anything I give him, so unfortunately, I can't test out whether or not the soap helps reduce old people smell.

Regarding making the 'Mirai japanese persimmon' soap, the ingredient used is fermented young persimmon tannin, called 'Kakishibu'. It is typically used in dying wood and fabrics, and comes in liquid or powder form. If you use around 2 tsp liquid ppo in cold process soap at trace, it will end up as a rich, dark brown soap. I have no idea why or how some brands have such a dainty light orange color, unless there is only a teensy weensy bit of persimmon tannin in the soap.

Something I want to also add while making this soap is that the persimmon tannin (or even if you are trying to use fresh persimmons) will turn the soap blue, but will settle to dark brown once the soap is saponified.

I mentioned previously that i am a smelly person, and I tried making the soap to see if I smell any different. Any soap would get rid of body odor, but even a little mild sweat on my clothes can make me smell pretty icky. The persimmon soap also helps with body odors from hormonal imbalance (supposedly?), so I just thought I'd give it a shot. I've tried my homemade persimmon soap for a whole month, on two separate occasions (I waited maybe about 3 or 4 months inbetween). I can definitely tell that during my persimmon-soap months, my clothes don't stink as bad in the washing machine, compared to using my other homemade soap. However, I've mentioned before that this is all possibly something to do with genetics, and most likely will not affect everyone when using the soap.

I really hope this information helps anyone who is curious about it, since I myself could barely find any information.


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## Ugeauxgirl (Jan 27, 2021)

Very interesting Jackie.  I opened the thread because I have a persimmon tree, and I always have more fruit than I know what to do with.  Glad I read it, even if this soap doesn't use the fruit!


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## Jackie Lo (Jan 28, 2021)

Ugeauxgirl said:


> Very interesting Jackie.  I opened the thread because I have a persimmon tree, and I always have more fruit than I know what to do with.  Glad I read it, even if this soap doesn't use the fruit!


At first I thought something was wrong when my liquid persimmon tannin turned blue, but I found an online video of a guy who used persimmon pulp in his, and the exact same thing happened to his batch, so it should be okay to make persimmon soap out of fresh ones. I've seen some persimmon soaps on Etsy, so it's not like it has never been done. Depending on how much you use, the soap itself can ends up as a light orange-brown to a dark chocolate-brown. I have not used fresh persimmon, so I do not know if it speeds or slows trace, but I know the liquid kakishibu does not affect trace at all.

Also, if you have a dehydrator, dried persimmons are quite tasty


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