# Black in the bottom of liquid soap bottles



## Miha Engblom (Jan 8, 2014)

I have noticed that the bottles of Castile liquid soap that got stored a bit longer has been developing something black and something gray that also been sinking down. Is this mold growth? Or is it some impurities from the olive oil that been separating out? Those bottles of liquid soap also lost their green color and is more yellow/brown.

The soap was made with EVOO, KOH and tap-water and is slightly superfatted.


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## lsg (Jan 8, 2014)

Did you use a preservative after diluting?


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## Miha Engblom (Jan 8, 2014)

No, it had nothing extra. Is there any natural preservative that could be added?


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## whitetiger_0603 (Jan 8, 2014)

You don't need a Preservative for Liquid soap.  Soap is too alkaline,  with an average PH of 9, for anything to thrive.  
When you stir it up does it move as well?


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## mel z (Jan 8, 2014)

What type of pot did you make it in?

Could be some of the coating????


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## lsg (Jan 8, 2014)

whitetiger_0603 said:


> You don't need a Preservative for Liquid soap. Soap is too alkaline, with an average PH of 9, for anything to thrive.
> When you stir it up does it move as well?


 
Well, that is your opinion. In my opinion, when water is added to anything even soap, it needs a preservative.  If soap has a low enough pH, (use of citric acid, dilution with distilled water, etc.) bacteria and mold can grow in it.   I would rather be safe than sorry.

http://handmadesoapcoach.com/ask-th...soap-or-not-to-preserve-that-is-the-question/

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2012/01/when-should-you-use-preservative.html


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## Lin (Jan 8, 2014)

Things can most definitely exist and grow in alkaline environments, a preservative is needed whenever water is used. There are species of bacteria and mold that prefer and thrive in alkaline environments. If not the item needs to be considered like food in the fridge and thrown out after the same period of time you'd toss leftovers left on the counter. You can extend use by refrigerating, but not sure of anyone that refrigerates their soap. And you'd still need to toss it after a few weeks. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535156/


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## whitetiger_0603 (Jan 8, 2014)

Everyone has their own opinion on a Preservative in liquid soap,  with recourse backing each side.  I've never used a Preservative in any of my soaps,  my Castile,  the longest one on the shelf in the closet currently being 6 months,  and no growth of any sort is present.  If it were to go rancid,  it would have already. If mold and bacteria were to grow,  it would have already. Especially considering the climate here is Louisiana is perfect for such things to happen in a heartbeat.  But as I said,  everyone has their own thoughts on it.  The only thing I use a Preservative in is,  and thank goodness it's a naturally derived,  Eco Cert verified,  is my conditioner recipe.  And despite all my trials with other preservative methods,  it's grown just about everything you can imagine a cosmetic can grow,  in just a months time. 

Anyways,  it could possibly be something from your soaping utensils ie your pot,  or spoons etc.  If it's mold it will grow on the top,  where oxygen is present.  Not sink to the bottom.  Mold and bacteria both need oxygen to grow,  and at the bottom of a bottle of soap,  oxygen is most certainly lacking


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## cmzaha (Jan 8, 2014)

I have seen this happen when using pomace olive oil


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## Lin (Jan 8, 2014)

Anaerobic bacteria grows where there is no oxygen. And you can't see bacteria without a microscope.


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## whitetiger_0603 (Jan 8, 2014)

lsg said:


> Well, that is your opinion. In my opinion, when water is added to anything even soap, it needs a preservative.  If soap has a low enough pH, (use of citric acid, dilution with distilled water, etc.) bacteria and mold can grow in it.   I would rather be safe than sorry.
> 
> http://handmadesoapcoach.com/ask-th...soap-or-not-to-preserve-that-is-the-question/
> 
> http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2012/01/when-should-you-use-preservative.html




I noticed also, now i'm at my computer, that you linked Swift Crafty Monkey's blog on preservatives.  In the Q&A at the bottom of the blog, a question was asked in regards to soaps, and here is that exerpt:

" Kathy said...   Susan - I just started making liquid soap, and the formulators and blogs  all state that the resulting pH in liquid soap is around 9.5-10 so you  don't need to add a preservative?  Correct or no?

PS - I'm really hoping that someday you do a series on liquid or cream soap making.  Thanks. 
 January 29, 2012 at 11:07 PM"

with the bloggers answer being....
"
Susan Barclay-Nichols said...   Hi Kathy! I'm not talking about soap (as defined as being a product that  is saponified by adding lye to oils and creating soap...not syndet  bars!) when it comes to preservatives. Just the things that have a pH of  8 or lower. 

_Which doesn't mean that one can raise the pH of your body wash, shampoo, and so on to 8 to avoid using preservatives!_ 
 January 30, 2012 at 6:24 AM " 


Susan, the blogger, distinctly says she was referring to other wter based products needing a preservative, ie lotions and conditioners.  Susan also reaffirmed my stance on pH inhibiting microbial growth.  Sadly enough a few comments down, she flat out admits she knows NOTHING about soap making.


In the first link you referenced, LaShonda, the blogger, made an interesting comment:

"*Test Your Product:* Send your preserved or even your  un-preserved liquid soap to be microbial tested. This way you will know  if when you are preserving your product that you are preserving at a  level that is sufficient. Please keep in mind that *no product will be  100% bacteria free* but there are level of microbials that become unsafe."  

Is she speaking in terms of evidence based fact, or is this her own opinion?  A comment like this would make me wonder, what's the point then? You can only use a certain max level of preservative that is considered safe in any one product, but if that doesn't cut it, why bother?  It leaves more room for debate, and confusion, on a topic that is already highly so on both counts.


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## mel z (Jan 9, 2014)

cmzaha said:


> I have seen this happen when using pomace olive oil



Yikes! I never knew! I knew pomace isn't the best to buy, but never knew it would have that much stuff in it.

On the topic of preservatives, I can tell you that it is needed in anything with water added. I tried to water down some store bought liquid Aveeno to make it work in a pump bottle once. That worked fine for a few days. After that my skin broke out in a rash because of whatever invisible creatures were in there. I will never do that again. I realize that is not homemade liquid soap, but it was a lesson in water and bacteria for me.


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## whitetiger_0603 (Jan 9, 2014)

mel z said:


> Yikes! I never knew! I knew pomace isn't the best to buy, but never knew it would have that much stuff in it.
> 
> On the topic of preservatives, I can tell you that it is needed in anything with water added. I tried to water down some store bought liquid Aveeno to make it work in a pump bottle once. That worked fine for a few days. After that my skin broke out in a rash because of whatever invisible creatures were in there. I will never do that again. I realize that is not homemade liquid soap, but it was a lesson in water and bacteria for me.



Aveeno is water based to begin with,  and more likely has its own preservatives; I've never used the product nor seen it's labels so I don't know for fact. That little bit of water you used wouldn't have caused much of an issue and could have more likely been the fact that you used tap water as opposed to distilled,  possibly causing some reaction between the chemicals and minerals in that and the chemicals used in the Aveeno.  Honestly anything is possible in that case.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 9, 2014)

whitetiger_0603 said:


> Aveeno is water based to begin with, and more likely has its own preservatives; I've never used the product nor seen it's labels so I don't know for fact. That little bit of water you used wouldn't have caused much of an issue and could have more likely been the fact that you used tap water as opposed to distilled, possibly causing some reaction between the chemicals and minerals in that and the chemicals used in the Aveeno. Honestly anything is possible in that case.


 
I'm no liquid soap maker, but I would hope that it would be possible to mix it with tap water, as I tend not to wash my hands with distilled water :wink:

Also, I was always led to believe that there is no such thing as a natural preservative?


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## lsg (Jan 9, 2014)

whitetiger_0603 said:


> I noticed also, now i'm at my computer, that you linked Swift Crafty Monkey's blog on preservatives. In the Q&A at the bottom of the blog, a question was asked in regards to soaps, and here is that exerpt:
> 
> " Kathy said... Susan - I just started making liquid soap, and the formulators and blogs all state that the resulting pH in liquid soap is around 9.5-10 so you don't need to add a preservative? Correct or no?
> 
> ...


 
Susan is studying to be a cosmetic chemist, so she knows what she is talking about. She has several e-books for sale through suppliers such as Lotioncrafter. She has done workshops for Voyaguer. If she didn't know what she was talking about, I doubt if they would sell her books or have her do workshops for them. There is no doubt in my mind that she knows far more than  I do about preservatives and the need for using them.  If you have a question concerning her qualifications, why not contact her?


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## whitetiger_0603 (Jan 9, 2014)

lsg said:


> Susan is studying to be a cosmetic chemist, so she knows what she is talking about. She has several e-books for sale through suppliers such as Lotioncrafter. She has done workshops for Voyaguer. If she didn't know what she was talking about, I doubt if they would sell her books or have her do workshops for them. There is no doubt in my mind that she knows far more than  I do about preservatives and the need for using them.  If you have a question concerning her qualifications, why not contact her?



That's great that she has books and such.  We all know how some soap makers have books out that really have no clue.  Susan explicitly says in her own blogs Q&A that she knows nothing about soap making.  She specifically said that particular article was about preservation of other cosmetics,  not soap. And she definitely said Liquid didn't need a preservative.  It's in the writing and it's most certainly not hard to read,  nor understand. So rather than push her merits of why she's so great,  why not just READ the very article she wrote,  including the Q&A,  as she,  as most folk do in any hobby, clarify certain aspects of their articles that some folks don't understand.  Most certainly even,  if she is studying to be a cosmetic chemist,  and said that LS doesn't need a preservative because of the pH,  which is what I said in the beginning,  and you seem to feel she knows more than you,  maybe you should take your own advice on that note,  and contact her yourself to clarify.  I on the other hand,  read her article and understand it very well.


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## lsg (Jan 9, 2014)

I sent you a pm.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 9, 2014)

I read the quoted text as saying - 

1 - Solid soaps don't need a preservative and they have a higher pH.

2 - More 'liquid' non-soap products will need a preservative and these tend to have a lower pH.

3 - You cannot just increase the pH of an item that would be in point 2 and then not use a preservative

Even bleach is marketed as killing 99% of germs - so by your logic there is no need to bother as it's not 100%.  If a preservative inhibits dangerous formations of nasties, then it's worth it even if does contain some nasties but not harmful.

There are so many instances of conflicting thoughts on a subject.  In some cases there is one 'right' answer, but often there is not.


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