# Speed up drying/curing time of CP soap?



## orangeblossom (Aug 21, 2007)

I have an experimental batch for a friend of mine with a new formula and so I made a tiny batch and cut it really thin so every bar of soap is about a 2 inch square about 1/4-1/3 inch thick.  

I have it drying out on a rack so air can circulate all around........she wants it soon to try it and let me know if she and her family like it so she can order a large batch from me for gifts.

So could I blow a fan on it or something to get it to cure more quickly?  I just cut it and put it on the shelf yesterday, she wants it in a week or 2.  I told her no, it would need at least 4 weeks, but then I thought about asking here.  She needs them by October, but she asked me late, so I feel crunched for time.  Any ideas?
Thanks!


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## soapbuddy (Aug 21, 2007)

Is this CP or Hot Process?
If it's Hot Process, I use mine after a week. This gives it some time for the water to evaporate.
If it's CP, I won't sell my bars for at least 4 weeks.

Irena


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## orangeblossom (Aug 22, 2007)

It's CP soap.  And normally I wouldn't even consider it, except that it's for a friend and they are test bars.  I wouldn't give her the bars she giving as gifts definitely for 4 weeks.  

Sigh, I'll just wait 4 weeks for the test bars too.

(She sprung the request on me quickly, with a short time period, not understanding the timing of soapmaking)


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## soapbuddy (Aug 22, 2007)

orangeblossom said:
			
		

> It's CP soap.  And normally I wouldn't even consider it, except that it's for a friend and they are test bars.  I wouldn't give her the bars she giving as gifts definitely for 4 weeks.
> 
> Sigh, I'll just wait 4 weeks for the test bars too.
> 
> (She sprung the request on me quickly, with a short time period, not understanding the timing of soapmaking)



I'm just curious...why didn't you do a CPOP, also called ITMHP, or just use a crock pot for hot process?

Irena


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## orangeblossom (Aug 22, 2007)

soapbuddy said:
			
		

> orangeblossom said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have no idea what "CPOP, also called ITMHP" is.  I didn't do hot process because of a few reasons, mainly because she didn't tell me she needed it quickly unti_l after _ I made it CP, but also because I've never done HP and I wasn't sure if the soap would turn out the same as CP....or does the process affect the soap slightly differently, since I'll be making the soap CP in the end, I would want to make it CP for a test.  You know?

So what is CPOP or ITMHP?


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## soapbuddy (Aug 22, 2007)

CPOP or ITMHP is the same thing. You make the soap, bring it to trace, pour into your mold, then put in a warm oven (170 degrees) for 1 hour. Turn the oven off and leave it there overnight. By the next morning, the soap should be ready to cut. If you followed a soap calc correctly, this should be safe to sell after one week.
You really should wait longer as more water evaporates, but if you can't it's ok after one week.

Irena


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## Soapmaker Man (Aug 22, 2007)

Did you use a stronger lye percentage?  If you soaped it at, lets say a 40% solution, it cures faster than a 30% solution.  I use my GM soaps at a 33% solution, after a week of curing.  There is nothing better than a good long cure for making a hard, long lasting, mild bar of soap. 8)  Soap is like fine wine & cheese, the longer the cure, the better the quality.

I know of someone who constructed a "drying room' using plastic from ceiling to floor and placing a dehumidifier in the space.  She says that she can sell in 2 to 3 weeks of CPing a batch.
I have a closet with a AC vent in it.  I was thinking putting in a dehumidifier and a few drying racks and trying it.  The dehumidifiers should be going on sale before long, and I only need a small unit.  I think it is an interesting idea.

Paul.... :wink:


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## orangeblossom (Aug 22, 2007)

wow, I never knew that!  What do they stand for?

Maybe I'll go ahead and do that tomorrow for her because that will be sooner than 4 weeks.  

Thanks!


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2007)

Cold Process Oven Process

ITMHP? a type of Hot Process.. what is the ITM... 


DWCP Discount Water Cold Process

CPHP CrockPot Hot Process


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## soapbuddy (Aug 22, 2007)

smellitlikeitis said:
			
		

> Cold Process Oven Process
> 
> ITMHP? a type of Hot Process.. what is the ITM...
> 
> ...



ITM = In The Mold

Irena


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## HerthElde (Aug 22, 2007)

First hi, I'm new here 

For the ITMHP, do you still insulate the mold?


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2007)

ITM .. lol.. DUH

Thats oven process.. in the mold way.. 

oven process.. no you do not need to insulate the mold..

ETA: Well i dont insulate mine. Some people may want it to continue to gell.. i let mine just sit.. and try not to peek!


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## soapbuddy (Aug 22, 2007)

I don't insulate mine. I don't want it to overheat.

Irena


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## gunner (Nov 29, 2010)

Funny, I was just about to try something like this to avoid the not-so-smooth look of HP, but wasn't sure if it could be done! Just happen to be ooking through old posts and found this one.
Does it affect the soap in any negative ways? Does it bubble up/brown on top or anything?
Thanks!


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## PrairieCraft (Nov 29, 2010)

Gunner--If you have your oven too hot it can overheat and the soap will wrinkle up or become distorted on the top.  Keep an eye on it.


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## Woodi (Nov 29, 2010)

One way I speed up my soap curing (or maybe just the drying) process, is to use a 20 to 30% water discount in the recipe.
Another way is to cut bars thinner.

What happens in curing, besides the soap becoming less harsh, is that water evaporates. If you have a thick bar to begin with, plan on a longer drying time.

I once had some one-inch thick bars that were a year old (testing) and managed to still slice them in half to find that the insides were still softish.

Once air got at them, they hardened up quickly.


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## honor435 (Nov 29, 2010)

hp is ok after one week, but def better after 2, its harder and lathers better.


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## gunner (Nov 29, 2010)

But if you do the 170 oven then you can use it like hp, in a week or two? Why don't more of us (impatient addicts) do it this way?


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## honor435 (Nov 29, 2010)

I think many of us arent convinced that cp is ready after 1 or 2 wks?


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## dubnica (Nov 29, 2010)

some people avoid gell...that is why they don't use the CPOP I think.


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## Stacey (Nov 29, 2010)

"CPOP or ITMHP is the same thing. You make the soap, bring it to trace, pour into your mold, then put in a warm oven (170 degrees) for 1 hour. Turn the oven off and leave it there overnight. By the next morning, the soap should be ready to cut. If you followed a soap calc correctly, this should be safe to sell after one week. 
You really should wait longer as more water evaporates, but if you can't it's ok after one week. "  Soapbuddy


I learned to oven process like this:  Turn the oven on to 170 degrees, place filled but uncovered soap molds in the oven.  Let it sit with the oven on for TWO hours.  Shut the oven off and let it sit in there until morning.  Cut as usual.   

Am I overkill?  

This is how I learned from a tutorial from another site and it seems to work well but I haven't seen many other people cooking it longer than an hour. 

And with OP I usually wait for 4 weeks.  But based upon this quote, I could use it in a shorter amount of time.  Interesting.  Particulary since I'm cooking it longer...I'm probably even closer to hot processing it then cold processing it, huh?  

Do you agree or disagree?  Your thoughts?


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## gunner (Nov 29, 2010)

What are the advantages/disadvantages of gelling/not gelling?
I've always just done what I read in the Susan Miller Cavitch book, cover for 24 hours; does that gel?


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## honor435 (Nov 29, 2010)

if you look up past posts, we talked about it, no advantages or dis, the look is different, if you covered, yes it usually gels. If you put in oven, you are forcing gel, if you fridgerate you get no gel, and it takes longer to cure. I always gel, I like the look, but its just a preference.


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## LadyM (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm so curious about the cure time topic.
Of course we know that soap gets better with age, milder, harder, longer lasting etc.
But why is it that many people seem like they wouldn't even touch it for at least 4 weeks?

I make CP and I often use mine right away.  Literally a couple of days after I take it out of the mold.  And it's soft, but it's wonderful!  I kinda prefer a softer bar.  

I don't see why freshly made soap couldn't be given out as a sample with the understanding that it becomes harder/longer lasting as it cures ...


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## soapbuddy (Nov 29, 2010)

I find freshly made soap very drying to my skin. Not so after 4 weeks.


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## Woodi (Dec 1, 2010)

I agree with soapbuddy. Fresh soap almost takes a thin layer of skin off me, leaves it feeling super-dry.
 I like a longer cure mostly to make sure that full saponification has taken place, even with cooked soap.


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## Elly (Dec 10, 2010)

Sorry I came so late on this very interesting discussion but I just found it as I was looking for answers regarding gelling or not gelling.  after reading this thread I was wondering if the CPOP method is the same as gelling and will it give out a darker soap as per HP? I usually try to avoid gelling if I want a lighter soap, gelling always causes uneven darker patches on my soaps, maybe I am not doing it right, still a rookie in soapmaking  :?


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## gunner (Dec 10, 2010)

Just a note; I did two batches CPOP 10 days ago and they came out of the mold so easily I think I'll do it that way from now on, but the soap is no closer to being useable than if I'd done regular CP. It's still pretty soft, especially in the middle. I thought it would be harder than a regualar CP bar by now. I didn't really plan on being able to use it any sooner, but the unmolding is so much easier!


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## savondebilal (Dec 10, 2010)

*bilal hito*

hi there! I made a few batches with the 'low water' option - and I love it. I find that it really preserves any herbal additives  from turning brown due to the lack of rapid oxidation

- bilal hito


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## Rolandrichy (Oct 19, 2017)

Am making soap for the first time and I used CP, my soap is 2 weeks now and still bringing out water. From all I ve read here it's  a process that will take 4 weeks.
I am really wondering if there is anything I can do to speed up this process. I was told to sun them everyday that it also helps.
Pls I need to confirm how true that is. 
Need guidance pls!

Rolandrichy


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## penelopejane (Oct 19, 2017)

Welcome to the forum. 

Things in the soaping world have changed since 2007. Start a new thread and ask your question again so we can give you new up to date info and not rehash out of date info.


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## DeeAnna (Oct 19, 2017)

Short answer -- No there is no way to speed up the process. Soap making will teach a person patience if it teaches nothing else.

And on an unrelated subject -- This thread is almost 7 years old and many of the participants are no longer around. If you want a variety of answers from current members, I recommend starting a new thread. Not everyone reads the old threads, even if new posts have been added.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 6, 2017)

I use a 500ppt or a 476ppt in the water:lye ratio. That is found by (lye/(Lye +water))*1000 which roughly means I use the same amount of water as I do lye or maybe just a tad more water.
I can cut it in 8-9 hours and use it safely the next day because it is as hard as a rock.
Doing it this way, I might only lose as much as 7 grams. In a week and a half maybe as much as 2 weeks it stops losing weight and it is ready.
However, my castille soap I made, which has been curing for 4 months so far, has lost 17 grams which is a bit more then usual.
My wife used to hot process hers but after recording the weights of hers and mine they lost weight at the same rate no matter what.
She doesn't hot process any more although she likes to do it that way she will also make soap the easier way.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 7, 2017)

"ready" is an objective term. Cure is a lot more than just water loss. Here's an example - take that two week old batch which is 'ready' and make another batch exactly the same in every detail. Then in two weeks it should also be 'ready' and the current batch is then 4 weeks old. Test them side by side and you'll see the difference those two extra weeks have made


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## Susie (Nov 7, 2017)

^^^What Craig said!

And if you can't tell the difference, then we need to see your whole recipe in weights to figure out where you went wrong.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 7, 2017)

"...500ppt or a 476ppt in the water:lye ratio. That is found by (lye/(Lye +water))*1000..."

Actually that's NaOH concentration, not water:lye ratio. Your water:lye ratio is 1 at 500 ppt (parts per thousand) and 1.1 at 476 ppt.

Be careful with "ppt" because the chemistry types lurking around here may read this as "parts per trillion" and most non-chemistry types won't have a clue. I suspect you may have read Kevin Dunn's book Scientific Soapmaking. His use of ppt to mean parts per thousand is fine, but this definition of ppt isn't universal in general chemistry.

Most of us here use percentages instead, so to translate, you're using 47.6% to 50% NaOH concentration.

Yes, your rate of water loss will stabilize more quickly by using NaOH at these higher concentrations. But stabilization of water loss doesn't mean the soap is fully cured and at its best within 2 weeks.


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## jcandleattic (Nov 7, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> I can cut it in 8-9 hours and use it safely the next day because it is as hard as a rock.



Being "rock hard" is not an indicator of safety. Once a bar is fully saponified and there is no free lye in the bar, that's when it's safe to use. 
Most CP if made correctly, is fully saponified and safe to use within 18-72 hours. However, fully cured and mild with no harshness, comes with time, and nothing that I have found has sped that up. 
Hot process bars take just as long to cure as CP soaps do because curing is more than water loss. 
IF curing was nothing more than water loss, then yeah, soap curing could be sped up. But that's not all there is to it.  


I absolutely can tell a bar that is 2 weeks old from a bar that is 6-8 weeks old.


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## SherylG (Nov 8, 2017)

Wow! I never knew this either! I'm going to try that too. However, I think I will have to put a note on the oven knob that says, "Soap in oven. Remove before turning on!".  Hubby bakes... 

I have to try this! No problem with it rising out of the mold?


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## DeeAnna (Nov 8, 2017)

SherylG said:


> Wow! I never knew this either! I'm going to try that too. However, I think I will have to put a note on the oven knob that says, "Soap in oven. Remove before turning on!".  Hubby bakes...
> 
> I have to try this! No problem with it rising out of the mold?



You have to try what? I'm confused about what you're talking about, Sheryl. There have been quite a few things discussed in this thread -- could you clarify what has caught your eye?


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## SherylG (Nov 9, 2017)

Sorry for the confusion. I'm talking about the ITMHP, aging the soap in the mold in the oven. 

Question: Can I do ITMHP with a heavy cardboard box mold? Has anyone done this successfully? 
I'm going to buy a silicone mold in wooden box at a later date but am using a cardboard box right now.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 9, 2017)

Most people call it CPOP nowadays -- ITMHP is going to get you a lot of blank looks. 

I'd also say most people here don't do the "170 degrees F for an hour" method anymore. 

That much heat for that long often causes problems. Instead, preheat the oven to 120 to 140 F (some folks shoot for 110 F), turn the oven off, and then put your soap in the oven. Leave it in the oven for at least several hours. All you need is sufficient gentle warmth to encourage the soap to reach gel temperature.

CPOP isn't about "aging" the soap, and it's not the only way to accomplish the goal of gently warming the soap. You can often get similar results by using a heating pad, putting the soap in an insulated cooler, etc. 

Avoid CPOP if you have a recipe you know will warm up well on its own -- recipes with added sugars or beer, or recipes with a lot of coconut oil are examples.

Yes, you can do CPOP in a cardboard mold although tape or glues may fail, especially if you decide to use the 170 deg F method.


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## jenlwhi2 (Nov 9, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> CPOP isn't about "aging" the soap, and it's not the only way to accomplish the goal of gently warming the soap. You can often get similar results by using a heating pad, putting the soap in an insulated cooler, etc.
> 
> Avoid CPOP if you have a recipe you know will warm up well on its own .



What would be the motivator of doing cpop? Just simply to encourage gel stage and nothing more? My understanding would be that it would speed up saponification. The soap will still need plenty of drying time of course, but the sap  time needed is shorter. I've never done cpop (haven't felt the need to) but am I mistaken here?


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## SherylG (Nov 9, 2017)

Thanks folks for the replies! 

OK, CPOP it is. Sorry for any confusion.   I thought CPOP was actually cooked in the oven with higher temps, as in a pot, not just kept warm in the mold. Back when I started making soap, people weren't cooking it in a slow cooker but now I see that a slow cooker is getting to be standard for cooking soap. No more boiling it in a pot in the oven or on the stove. 

I think the tape will hold up to 120 or so. My recipe has sugar added and is made with some goats milk. Does that mean it will get hot on it's own as it ages in the mold, so just wrapping in bubble wrap will be enough? No oven needed? I have bubble wrap galore and usually wrap the mold in it.  

I mix the scent in the soap outside and am concerned that, being winter, this will cool it down too much before pouring it into the mold to finish. Although, I will say that I have done it this way for years and not had many failures, so I guess that's not really a problem. I'd rather not put it in the oven for a long time, as hubby may need it for baking. 

Yes, CPOP is to speed the aging. I don't want to cook it as I like the fluidity and smoothness of CP soap poured into the mold.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 9, 2017)

jcandleattic said:


> Being "rock hard" is not an indicator of safety. Once a bar is fully saponified and there is no free lye in the bar, that's when it's safe to use.
> Most CP if made correctly, is fully saponified and safe to use within 18-72 hours. However, fully cured and mild with no harshness, comes with time, and nothing that I have found has sped that up.
> Hot process bars take just as long to cure as CP soaps do because curing is more than water loss.
> IF curing was nothing more than water loss, then yeah, soap curing could be sped up. But that's not all there is to it.
> ...



I totally agree with you about the water thing. But if I wait any longer then 9 hours to cut I will break my string and I have to use fishing line. After 24 hours they are as hard as their going to get. They just lose weight from there. I really like to wait 4 weeks to sell but they stop losing weight at 2 weeks and from there they just age. If I used a bar after I made it the next day it would still last about 3-4 weeks in the shower. I've already tried it.
By the way, CP loses the same weight equally at the same rate as HP. I've already proved that to my wife. She no longer does HP to waste energy except if she wants too.


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## Susie (Nov 9, 2017)

SherylG said:


> I think the tape will hold up to 120 or so. My recipe has sugar added and is made with some goats milk. Does that mean it will get hot on it's own as it ages in the mold, so just wrapping in bubble wrap will be enough? No oven needed? I have bubble wrap galore and usually wrap the mold in it.



I put my mold on top of a heating pad.  I leave the heating pad on usually a little over an hour for my "sugars added" recipes when the temperature in the apartment is in the low 60s (my husband is from Alaska).  My "no sugars added" recipe requires heat for approximately 4 hours to get full gel under the same conditions.  I cover the molds with a cardboard box, then two heavy beach towels.  



SherylG said:


> I mix the scent in the soap outside and am concerned that, being winter, this will cool it down too much before pouring it into the mold to finish. Although, I will say that I have done it this way for years and not had many failures, so I guess that's not really a problem. I'd rather not put it in the oven for a long time, as hubby may need it for baking.



Use the heating pad method.  It keeps it out of the oven.



SherylG said:


> Yes, CPOP is to speed the aging. I don't want to cook it as I like the fluidity and smoothness of CP soap poured into the mold.



CPOP will not speed anything but gel, which gets the soap harder faster.  And there is far more than loss of moisture going on during cure.  Which can't be hurried no matter what you do.


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## SaltedFig (Nov 9, 2017)

Thanks Susie!


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## iwannasoap (Nov 9, 2017)

SherylG said:


> Thanks folks for the replies!
> 
> OK, CPOP it is. Sorry for any confusion.   I thought CPOP was actually cooked in the oven with higher temps, as in a pot, not just kept warm in the mold. Back when I started making soap, people weren't cooking it in a slow cooker but now I see that a slow cooker is getting to be standard for cooking soap. No more boiling it in a pot in the oven or on the stove.
> 
> ...



If your doing goats milk and sugar together please do not let it go in the gel phase.


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## jenlwhi2 (Nov 9, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> If your doing goats milk and sugar together please do not let it go in the gel phase. It will spoil your milk and or your sugar will explode. .



I don't use sugar in mine but I can definitely say using milk in soap that gels doesn't spoil the milk. All of my batches use goat milk and most of them heat and gel  on their own and I've never had a spoiled batch from it. But maybe u r referring to sugar added as well?


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## iwannasoap (Nov 9, 2017)

*Thank you for the correction*



DeeAnna said:


> "...500ppt or a 476ppt in the water:lye ratio. That is found by (lye/(Lye +water))*1000..."
> 
> Actually that's NaOH concentration, not water:lye ratio. Your water:lye ratio is 1 at 500 ppt (parts per thousand) and 1.1 at 476 ppt.
> 
> ...



To me, it is the same thing but I am not saying that I am right. Change the ppt and it changes the ratio. It is just easier for me to control exactly how much water I am putting in. And again, thx for the correction. I'll remember that.


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## SherylG (Nov 9, 2017)

Thanks for the replies and info Suzie and everyone! Now I won't worry about cooking it or wrapping the mold at all anymore.  I had never heard of cooking it in the mold in the oven. So much easier than cooking it on the stovetop! 

I used to make soap, CP and HP regularly for a couple of decades, always with milk of some kind and also with sugar added. The milk has never spoiled or spoiled the soap. I have, of course, had failures for various reasons here and there (Oops!) just not due to milk spoilage. However, I never used to wrap the box mold until recently, just the last two batches and I partially cooked them for another reason... long story. 

Anyway, thank you for that info! 

I stopped making it for about 5 years but started again last winter with just a couple of batches. I'm trying to remember what I did years before and it's taken some trial and error to get it back. 

When I made it regularly years ago I tried everything. You mention it and I've done it. Cooked every way, Cold process (but not mold in the oven. that was new to me.) The last few years I settled on just mix, blend and pour. I didn't even wait for trace. It usually reached trace in the mold and was not a problem getting every batch to saponify. The trick was starting warm enough. Took some trial and error to figure that out! I mix at about 115-117f. I think it traces as it cools in the mold after blending. 

Anyway, that's my "go-to" method. I'm now trying to remember the details of my old process. The last batch I had to remelt as I forgot that the sugar and salt have to be added to the very hot lye water which is then stirred until everything is well blended. In the recent soap make, I added it to the cool mix and it didn't dissolve. Just sunk to the bottom after blending. So I had to melt it down hot enough to dissolve the sugar and salt with much stirring and heat. That cooked the soap, which turned out well anyway. I have learned to fix just about anything, if it's not burned and I know how I messed up the recipe. 

So I'm going to keep it simple, just mix, blend, scent and pour. 

Thanks again for the reassurance that a cool mix is all I need.


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## Susie (Nov 9, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> If your doing goats milk and sugar together please do not let it go in the gel phase. It will spoil your milk and or your sugar will explode. Keep your lye water cold and your oils on ice in a bowl and then directly into the freezer.
> And, most importantly - dont use bubble wrap unless your using on the bottom for an effect. It has to breathe.



Have you ever made soap using goat's milk and sugar together?  I have, and I assure you that it neither spoiled nor exploded.


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## psfred (Nov 9, 2017)

If your emulsion holds well, there really isn't a need to get the soap to trace before pouring it, but if you think you have a problematic FO or have had ricing or separation in the past with a simllar recipe, I'd get it thicker first.  If you are doing swirls or other "decorative" effects, you may need thicker batter for it to behave the way you want, too -- soap only at emulsion won't "drag" much.

I've often wondered if I could short-cut HP by adding superfat and FO's, etc just before the "applesauce" stage and putting the soap in the mold, it's pretty fluid at that point and will finish saponifying in just a few minutes if it's plenty hot. Something to try when I have nothing else to do, as I have more than enough soap for a few years already.

CPOP is great for getting full gel, and will save some on FO's too -- the faster the saponification, the less degradation of the aroma chemical from the lye.  Also prevents partial gel, which some people don't like.

The only drawback is the potential for overheating from a "heating" FO or sugar plus milk (more sugar, actually) or beer, also too much sugar.  

So far I've only made CP soaps with considerable amounts of hard oils, and with CPOP they are ready to cut as soon as they are cool, definitely by the next morning if I make them at night.  No zap once they have gelled.


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## SherylG (Nov 10, 2017)

I use half hard fats and the CP soap is ready to cut the next morning, which is about 24 hours. I have to watch HP soap to catch it before it gets too hard to cut. I rarely make HP soap anymore. The end product is just not as nice. I have considered just partially cooking it, as you mentioned, but have not gone there. The less time and trouble it takes to make, the more I like making it. It's enough trouble just fixing the odd batch that doesn't go well. Hopefully there will be less of those as I get back into regular soap making.f

I always use sugar and goats milk together. That's probably one reason I can just mix and pour, it heats up in the mold. 
You are right about the swirling - too thin to swirl. I may leave the next batch in the pot until it starts to thicken before colouring and pouring so I can swirl it...maybe. I don't want it to get too hard to pour smoothly in the mold. I'll have to catch it just as it starts to thicken, I think. Maybe a swirl is not that important. Just a mix of colours is good enough for me.   Some are just one solid colour and some are not coloured at all. My next batch will be oatmeal and honey but I'm only adding the honey to part of it and using that to swirl in, since it will be dark brown in colour. I'm scenting it with banana so it will be oatmeal, honey and banana! 

I'm enjoying making soap again! I had forgotten how much fun it is! Maybe you can give some away at Christmas?


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## dibbles (Nov 10, 2017)

SherylG said:


> The last batch I had to remelt as I forgot that the sugar and salt have to be added to the very hot lye water which is then stirred until everything is well blended. In the recent soap make, I added it to the cool mix and it didn't dissolve. Just sunk to the bottom after blending. So I had to melt it down hot enough to dissolve the sugar and salt with much stirring and heat. That cooked the soap, which turned out well anyway. I have learned to fix just about anything, if it's not burned and I know how I messed up the recipe.



Actually, if you dissolve the sugar and salt in the water before you add the lye, you won't have that problem. I don't use salt, but I remove a small amount of the total water, warm it slightly and dissolve the sugar, return it to the total water and add the lye. Works perfectly. But, you know, whatever works for you...


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## iwannasoap (Nov 10, 2017)

Sugar is energy. It creates heat. If it gets too hot you will get a volcano.
This is an example.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0R_gqDwbJY[/ame]


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## SherylG (Nov 10, 2017)

Thank you for the idea Dibbles  
I try to do whatever is easiest. I think it will be easier for me to just add it to the already very hot lye water and stir them all to dissolve at the same time rather than using energy and time to heat a little water just for the sugar. It's what I usually do and it works for me. I just have to remember to do that.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Nov 10, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> If lye based soap doesn't breath then your milk will turn rancid and/or you will get DOS.
> 
> Sugar is energy. It creates heat. If it gets too hot you will get a volcano.
> This is an example.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0R_gqDwbJY


I think a major issue is that you state things as absolutes with no caveats. "if you use milk and sugar it will do X y and z" and then come back and say "too much sugar" and so on. The first statement, that milk and sugar would result in spoiling the milk, was not accurate. It CAN or COULD, but that's not what you said.


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## Susie (Nov 10, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I think a major issue is that you state things as absolutes with no caveats. "if you use milk and sugar it will do X y and z" and then come back and say "too much sugar" and so on. The first statement, that milk and sugar would result in spoiling the milk, was not accurate. It CAN or COULD, but that's not what you said.



Indeed, ANY soap can spoil or get DOS, but so few actually do.  And wrapping the soap a short time before cutting is not the problem that wrapping for the entirety of cure could be.


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## artemis (Nov 10, 2017)

SherylG said:


> Thank you for the idea Dibbles
> I try to do whatever is easiest. I think it will be easier for me to just add it to the already very hot lye water and stir them all to dissolve at the same time rather than using energy and time to heat a little water just for the sugar. It's what I usually do and it works for me. I just have to remember to do that.


I forgot my sugar and added it to the water after the lye and ended up with big bits of soft crack stage lye candy floating in it! 

I just put my sugar in my water and let it dissolve before I add the lye to it. I don't bother with heating the water first and then letting it cool. Unless you're adding a crazy amount of sugar, the water should dissolve the sugar without needing to heat it first. At least, that's been my experience.


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## dixiedragon (Nov 10, 2017)

Going back to CPOP - I've recently starting doing "twice baked" soap - it really helps to get soap out of the mold! The soap goes through a second gel stage. I do wonder if that could speed up the curing process, but I haven't yet done a blind test. I accidentally gelled a soap for 8+ hours once. It turned out fine but I don't know if that was just luck or what. If you decide to test this method, I recommend taking some steps to protect your oven - such as putting your soap mold inside a large glass casserole dish. I cover a cookie tray with a dish towel and put my mold on that.


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## dibbles (Nov 10, 2017)

artemis said:


> I forgot my sugar and added it to the water after the lye and ended up with big bits of soft crack stage lye candy floating in it!
> 
> I just put my sugar in my water and let it dissolve before I add the lye to it. I don't bother with heating the water first and then letting it cool. Unless you're adding a crazy amount of sugar, the water should dissolve the sugar without needing to heat it first. At least, that's been my experience.



You are right - there is no need to heat the water first. I only warm a bit of the water because I am impatient and it dissolves faster.


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## SaltedFig (Nov 10, 2017)

Thanks for reminding me!

I have some second-gel tests to finish off on cut bars (there seems to be an interesting effect that I need to explore further).



dixiedragon said:


> Going back to CPOP - I've recently starting doing "twice baked" soap - it really helps to get soap out of the mold! The soap goes through a second gel stage. I do wonder if that could speed up the curing process, but I haven't yet done a blind test. I accidentally gelled a soap for 8+ hours once. It turned out fine but I don't know if that was just luck or what. If you decide to test this method, I recommend taking some steps to protect your oven - such as putting your soap mold inside a large glass casserole dish. I cover a cookie tray with a dish towel and put my mold on that.


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## SherylG (Nov 10, 2017)

If I don't have to heat the water first, then I will put the sugar and salt in before the lye and stir for a few seconds. I'll give that a try. I have usually added the sugar and salt to the hot lye water and stirred to dissolve. I don't remember having lumps or problems with it, but it's easy enough to avoid by adding before the lye, as long as the water can be cold. I'm basically fairly lazy. 

If I do put a mold in the oven, I will put a tray under it, for sure and thanks!


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## artemis (Nov 10, 2017)

SherylG said:


> I'm basically fairly lazy.



I'm with you!


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## penelopejane (Nov 10, 2017)

SaltedFig said:


> Thanks for reminding me!
> 
> I have some second-gel tests to finish off on cut bars (there seems to be an interesting effect that I need to explore further).



I have done this a couple of times and noticed a musty smell to the soap and a weird plastic-ey texture to the soap. 
Did you observe this too?


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## SaltedFig (Nov 10, 2017)

Definite yes on the plastic-ey texture! It became slightly more translucent to look at, which went away a little bit, but not completely.

Not sure on the smell, I didn't like the smell of this particular soap much anyway. I'll try to observe that for next time tho, thanks!



penelopejane said:


> I have done this a couple of times and noticed a musty smell to the soap and a weird plastic-ey texture to the soap.
> Did you observe this too?


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## DeeAnna (Nov 10, 2017)

I haven't done the "twice baked" thing, but I have warmed a number of batches after saponification -- basically doing a mild CPOP method -- because the soap didn't gel and I wanted it to. I haven't noticed the plastic texture or any off smell -- the soap just looked and smelled like normal gelled soap. But I think that's different than what you're all talking about?


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## penelopejane (Nov 11, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> I haven't done the "twice baked" thing, but I have warmed a number of batches after saponification -- basically doing a mild CPOP method -- because the soap didn't gel and I wanted it to. I haven't noticed the plastic texture or any off smell -- the soap just looked and smelled like normal gelled soap. But I think that's different than what you're all talking about?



Definitely different. I did it a couple of times changing the heat as I thought I might have overheated it the first time.  I tried warming it (100*C) - nothing happened still looked partially gelled.  I went to 150* and 160*F for an hour - both times when it cooled it was like plastic and smelt musty and was still partially gelled.  

I gave up after that!


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## DeeAnna (Nov 11, 2017)

Thanks for clarifying, PJ. I was a wee bit concerned -- musty smelling and plastic-y feeling are not qualities I want for my soap!


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## jcandleattic (Nov 11, 2017)

Edited: nevermind - already answered several times.


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## jcandleattic (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> If your doing goats milk and sugar together please do not let it go in the gel phase.



Why? I always gel my milk soaps, and they turn out great.


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## jcandleattic (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> I totally agree with you about the water thing. But if I wait any longer then 9 hours to cut I will break my string and I have to use fishing line. After 24 hours they are as hard as their going to get. They just lose weight from there. I really like to wait 4 weeks to sell but they stop losing weight at 2 weeks and from there they just age. If I used a bar after I made it the next day it would still last about 3-4 weeks in the shower. I've already tried it.
> By the way, CP loses the same weight equally at the same rate as HP. I've already proved that to my wife. She no longer does HP to waste energy except if she wants too.



Yes, it's still losing weight because they are curing, not saponifying. Saponification happens within (at the most a couple days) Saponification and cure are completely 2 separate things, and are not synonyms. 
Also as I said, being rock hard or "as hard as they are going to get" does not mean they are cured. 

But I feel that I am wasting my breath, so I'm out.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

jcandleattic said:


> Why? I always gel my milk soaps, and they turn out great.


Are they just as great 6 months from now? I am curious if the milk is not rancid. I think I said that earlier because someone puts sugar in theirs. Sugar is a fuel and a form of energy. I know my loafs get up to 200 degrees. Wouldn't that spoil the milk especially with sugar (if too much is added). Sugar can also turn it into a volcano I believe. Haven't had that problem myself yet but I know it can happen.
I honestly am curious and not being sarcastic.


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## iwannasoap (Nov 11, 2017)

jcandleattic said:


> Yes, it's still losing weight because they are curing, not saponifying. Saponification happens within (at the most a couple days) Saponification and cure are completely 2 separate things, and are not synonyms.
> Also as I said, being rock hard or "as hard as they are going to get" does not mean they are cured.
> 
> But I feel that I am wasting my breath, so I'm out.


Oh yeah, I understand that they are not cured and I don't think you were wasting your breath and I am sorry that you feel that way.


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## jenlwhi2 (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Are they just as great 6 months from now? I am curious if the milk is not rancid. I think I said that earlier because someone puts sugar in theirs. Sugar is a fuel and a form of energy. I know my loafs get up to 200 degrees. Wouldn't that spoil the milk especially with sugar (if too much is added). Sugar can also turn it into a volcano I believe. Haven't had that problem myself yet but I know it can happen.
> I honestly am curious and not being sarcastic.


I don't cpop  but almost all of my goat milk soap gels and it is great 2 years later (I only know because i have some I misplaced and found and it's still great!) But there is not any spoiled milk or rancidity


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## jcandleattic (Nov 11, 2017)

iwannasoap said:


> Are they just as great 6 months from now? I am curious if the milk is not rancid. I think I said that earlier because someone puts sugar in theirs. Sugar is a fuel and a form of energy. I know my loafs get up to 200 degrees. Wouldn't that spoil the milk especially with sugar (if too much is added). Sugar can also turn it into a volcano I believe. Haven't had that problem myself yet but I know it can happen.
> I honestly am curious and not being sarcastic.



Yes, they are just as good even up to a couple years later (I have so much soap, and always keep at least 1 bar out of every batch for myself) 
I don't add sugar to my GM soaps, so I'm not sure about that, but I've never had a volcano, just the occasional crack down the middle when I make them in the summer, and the milk has never gone rancid, or spoiled and I've never gotten DOS in any of my milk soaps. (I've actually only gotten DOS once, but I'm also not in a very humid area, so I'm sure that helps along with many other factors)


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## SherylG (Nov 12, 2017)

I use sugar and goats milk and coconut milk. I have never had a crack or volcano or DOS in the milk soaps and it's great soap without souring years later. I have never had my soap get sour or rancid. 

It's not all perfect, of course. I make the odd mistake making a batch occasionally that I have to fix for some reason or another but it has not ever been due to a crack or a volcano or sour-rancid smell. 

Actually, I had more problems with the soap before I started using milk in them. I had DOS once in plain soap back when I first started and it occasionally would separate in the mold or turn out to be just hard fat instead of soap - not enough heat at mixing. Now that I use sugar and milk and mix around 115f, even 118f, that never happens. Its always soap

However, I also have never wrapped or insulated the cardboard soap box mold. I also scent and mold my soap batches outside (I'm in Canada) so it gets cooled down before going into the mold. I have worried that it's not warm enough. I'm relieved to find out that it heats itself up in the mold. _(Hubby can't take the initial strong scent in the house.)_

I don't know what would happen if I wrapped it all up or put it on a heating mat. I was thinking of doing that to get a "cooked" soap ready faster but I don't think I will now that I've heard the dangers of overheating. I will just cook in a pot on the stove or a slow cooker if I want cooked soap.

Even my hot cooked milk soap doesn't ever sour or  get rancid.While I appreciate that it might be possible for a soap to overheat and cause a volcano, it's never happened to me and I've made more batches of soap over the past 30 years than I could ever hope to count. All of them with sugar from the start and most with milk as well.

I've made just about every mistake there is to make too...and still do, mostly due to my own stupidity and insistence on doing too many things at once. :roll:


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## shunt2011 (Nov 13, 2017)

I always soap with sugar and some kind of milk.  Have never had a volcano in 7 plus years and have never had a bar go rancid because of the milk.  I would like proof that this happens since stated with so much authority.  I have a few bars that are 5 plus years old and still perfectly good.


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## cmzaha (Nov 13, 2017)

Susie said:


> I put my mold on top of a heating pad.  I leave the heating pad on usually a little over an hour for my "sugars added" recipes when the temperature in the apartment is in the low 60s (my husband is from Alaska).  My "no sugars added" recipe requires heat for approximately 4 hours to get full gel under the same conditions.  I cover the molds with a cardboard box, then two heavy beach towels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I put my molds in a flat crate and put a heating pad underneath the crate, because I fill my molds to the tippy top I cannot cover them. Also if there is any separation or leaking problems the crate will catch the mess. I also cover the crates with a blanket. My recipes will very seldom gel without nudging

I also use milks, sugars, and yogurts with no problems during gel. I do keep an eye on them for overheating. Not sure if it was in this thread but I think I remember something about sugar causing spoilage, this confuses me since sugar is used as a curing product for meats.


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## IrishLass (Nov 13, 2017)

Shunt2011 said:
			
		

> I would like proof that this happens since stated with so much authority


 
Me, too. I always make my milk soaps with added sugar and I always gel them, and like Jcandleattic, Shunt and SherylG, they gel without any issues. I've been soaping since 2005, and so far I've never developed rancidity in any of my milk soaps, nor have I experienced any volcanos from gelling them. For what it's worth, I always save a bar back from each batch for observation-sake and hold on to it for at least 2 years (oftentimes more), and none have ever developed rancidity.

Having said that, though, I _have _experienced goat milk going off in soap, but the soap was one made with a Melt & Pour base, which makes a world of difference since there's no active lye present in MP bases to chemically react with the milk as there is with CP going through saponification. The soap in question was made by soap-maker friend of my sis. She added fresh goat milk from her goats to her MP base, and over the course of a few weeks the soap developed a yucky vomit stench.

I'm not a scientist, so I'm not able to scientifically explain what kind of chemical processes take place that keep milks and finely-ground foodie ingredients from going bad in CP, but no matter what type of food I have added to CP (carrot juice, finely pureed avocado, fresh egg yolks, baby oatmeal, cucumber juice, goat milk, coconut milk, sugar, honey, etc....) none has ever gone rancid in my CP. The only time I've ever heard of rancidity or mold occurring in CP is when folks have used chunks of food (as opposed to liquids or finely pureed food). Chunks leave too much surface area *un*-exposed to the lye.


IrishLass


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## DeeAnna (Nov 13, 2017)

Kevin Dunn did a presentation in which he describes his research into what happens when soap is made with milk. The sugar (lactose) in goat milk chemically reacts with NaOH or KOH and changes color in the process -- that's why milk soap tends to be darker than the same soap made without milk. The protein (casein) only slightly reacts -- not enough to worry about. And obviously the milkfat (butterfat) reacts. 

Dunn concluded that using reconstituted goat milk as a 100% replacement for water will raise the superfat by 4% to 6% due to the reaction of the lactose as well as milkfat with the NaOH. To compensate for this, since soap recipe calculators don't have a saponification value for actual goat milk, you could reduce the superfat % by that much. I calculated that the fat in full fat milk raises the superfat by about 1% if milk is substituted for the water, so the remaining 3% to 5% increase is coming from the sugar.

As to whether milk sugars or other sugars will cause the soap to volcano, that is not a problem in my experience, so I don't spend any time worrying about it. The volcanoes I've seen and heard about have been triggered by the use of fragrances that contain known accelerants (such as eugenol) or to slowly pouring cool lye solution into unusually hot fat or to heating soap batter on the stove top and not watching the temperature carefully enough.

As far as food and similar ingredients decomposing or otherwise going bad in soap, the high pH of soap will inhibit microbial decomposition if the soap maker is sensible. I've seen evidence of mold or other decomposition on soap in only a couple of instances. One was when a bar of soap at a sink was contaminated with stuff from a person's very dirty hands and the bar was left dirty, damp, and untouched for some time. Another was when the soap maker heavily sprinkled botanical/food ingredients like flower petals or oatmeal flakes on the top of the loaf. In both cases, the contaminated areas were ON the soap, not IN it. Food type additives have been used IN soap for centuries, including potatoes, starches, eggs, and dairy, so the idea is nothing particularly new or unknown. As IL points out, additives like these should be in small particles or liquids, not big chunks. They should be used in low to moderate amounts and mixed well into the soap.


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## ibct1969 (Nov 13, 2017)

*Thank you DeeAnna...*



DeeAnna said:


> Most people call it CPOP nowadays -- ITMHP is going to get you a lot of blank looks.
> 
> I'd also say most people here don't do the "170 degrees F for an hour" method anymore.
> 
> ...




Your explanations are one of the main reasons that I read thru all of the threads on a pretty regular basis.  The above explanation is really clear and thorough, as are all of your explanations.  Thanks for all of your contributions to this forum!


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## MorpheusPA (Nov 13, 2017)

I can attest to the "don't cook at 170° for an hour" thing.  I had a recalcitrant soap last night that, after an hour, wasn't reaching gel phase in the oven.

Being tired, and it being late, I heated the oven to 170°, left it go for 30 minutes, then turned the heat off.  Gel phase commenced shortly thereafter.  Boiling also commenced shortly after gel phase.  Which was then followed by a severe loss of scent.

The soap is already unmolded and rock hard, but also has boil pockmarks.  It's acceptable--barely--for gift-giving.


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## SherylG (Nov 13, 2017)

Thank you for the information, Deanna! 

Now I'm a bit concerned about the oatmeal soap I made a few days ago. I don't want the oats in my soap to sour.  I put in more than I usually do but I ground them up fine in my spice grinder. 

Half of them sunk to the bottom in the thin CP soap,so there's a big chunk of them sitting on the bottom. I swear, I have had more problems with cool CP soaping! I am considering going back to cooking it all. Maybe I'll get a slow cooker just for soap.


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 14, 2017)

In response to the topic... I once had to get a batch of soap made and shipped in a week. These were "Pass the Bar" soap favors to celebrate my nephew becoming a lawyer. My sister in Seattle asked and I was happy to oblige. The party was 2 weeks away.

Day 1: Make soap. CPOP (Cold Process Oven Process). Pre-heat oven to 170°F. Put soap in. Turn oven off. Leave in oven overnight.
Day 2: Unmold. Cut into bars. Allow 24 hours before next step.
Day 3: Grate it up. Rebatch in a SS pot, in 250°F oven for an hour. Mold it up. Leave it overnight.
Day 4: Unmold. Cut into bars.
Day 5: Rebatch again.
Day 6: Unmold. Cut into regular-size 5 oz. bars. Then cut those in half again to make 2.5 oz. bars.
Day 7: Wrap (in cigar bands that allow soap to breathe) and ship.

I used one of my favorite recipes -- plain Jane white bar -- nothing fancy, but lathers like a mad dog. I kept one bar to check its progress. It was smooth creamy white with no off-putting odor or blemishes at all. But I don't recommend this method to anyone -- it was a lot more work than I expected but fun to do and well worth the effort.


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## shunt2011 (Nov 14, 2017)

SherylG said:


> Thank you for the information, Deanna!
> 
> Now I'm a bit concerned about the oatmeal soap I made a few days ago. I don't want the oats in my soap to sour. I put in more than I usually do but I ground them up fine in my spice grinder.
> 
> Half of them sunk to the bottom in the thin CP soap,so there's a big chunk of them sitting on the bottom. I swear, I have had more problems with cool CP soaping! I am considering going back to cooking it all. Maybe I'll get a slow cooker just for soap.


 
I would just watch it.  I use oatmeal finely ground or baby oatmeal in my soaps frequently and have never had them get moldy.  I blend the oatmeal into my oils and stick blend them well before adding my lye.  That way I know they are mixed I well.


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## SherylG (Nov 14, 2017)

They were finely ground and I put them in before stick blending. It might be ok. I'll see what it looks like after it's hard. I can always rebatch it but I'd rather not. 

A friend in Ontario wants some from me for Christmas so I might cook it anyway so it's ready to send to her soon, maybe. I plan to make more shortly, so I might cook the new ones and leave the oatmeal as is...maybe. But then again, I'm not that happy with the oatmeal distribution so I might rebatch it. Ha! Ha! I'm great at making decisions. lol

If I can find a good slow cooker at the thrift store cheap I might buy it and just make all soap in it. It looks easy on the 'net. I have always cooked it in a pot on the stove but tend to over cook it. It would make rebatching easier too.

Anyone cook soap in a slow cooker?


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## penelopejane (Nov 14, 2017)

SherylG said:


> They were finely ground and I put them in before stick blending. It might be ok. I'll see what it looks like after it's hard. I can always rebatch it but I'd rather not.
> 
> A friend in Ontario wants some from me for Christmas so I might cook it anyway so it's ready to send to her soon, maybe. I plan to make more shortly, so I might cook the new ones and leave the oatmeal as is...maybe. But then again, I'm not that happy with the oatmeal distribution so I might rebatch it. Ha! Ha! I'm great at making decisions. lol
> 
> ...



DeeAnna was talking about full oats being sprinkled on top of a soap being a possible problem.  She was not talking about finely ground oatmeal added to a mix. Yours will be fine.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 14, 2017)

Yep, Carolyn and Shari are right. Finely ground IN the soap should be fine. Whole oat flakes ON the soap -- not so good.


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## SherylG (Nov 14, 2017)

Great ! Thanks! I was worried because they all piled together at the bottom of the bars but I'm not going to worry about it.


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## cmzaha (Nov 14, 2017)

I have a bar that I have made for years that uses a large amount of whole oats with no issues. I never put any type of botanical's or large salt grains of top of soap for decorations. Never Never Never . I usually use Oat Flour except in my DB soaps because men tend to like a bit scrubbier


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## IrishLass (Nov 14, 2017)

SherylG said:


> If I can find a good slow cooker at the thrift store cheap I might buy it and just make all soap in it. It looks easy on the 'net. I have always cooked it in a pot on the stove but tend to over cook it. It would make rebatching easier too.
> 
> Anyone cook soap in a slow cooker?


 
For my all HP batches and any rebatches, I just use my oven (set to 180F/82C), and a stainless steel soup pot with a cover. Unlike the stovetop, the oven provides even heat all around, so there's no chance of the bottom scorching.


IrishLass


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## Zany_in_CO (Nov 14, 2017)

SherylG said:


> Now I'm a bit concerned about the oatmeal soap I made a few days ago. I don't want the oats in my soap to sour.  I put in more than I usually do but I ground them up fine in my spice grinder. Half of them sunk to the bottom in the thin CP soap,so there's a big chunk of them sitting on the bottom.


I wouldn't worry too much about the chunk on the bottom -- you can always say you planned to make it that way! You know, a scrubby side and a smooth side to the soap. Sounds like a winner to me!

As Carolyn mentioned, I also prefer to use Oat Flour -- Bob's Red Mill from the grocery store or Whole Foods -- I add it to my warm oils, mix for 1 full minute, before adding the lye solution. 

Picking up a slow cooker, or as it is more commonly referred to, a "crock pot", at a thrift store is a good idea. Get the largest one you can find cuz you need some head room for turning/stirring plus the soap can bubble up to the lid... and beyond ...the minute your back is turned! 

You'll also want one with a removable insert so you can put it in the dishwasher. I found mine at a thrift store. It's a 6 quart Rival with a black ceramic pot insert. It's a good investment because you can also use it to infuse oils for herbal products; make liquid soap; etc. in addition to hot process hard bars.

Just a stab in the dark here, but I'd venture to guess that just about everyone responding on this thread has used a crock pot to make soap.


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## SherylG (Nov 14, 2017)

Thanks everyone for the information!  I going to keep my eyes open for one at the thrift store this winter. I can use a pot on the stove, as I have done many times, but the crockpot method looks so much easier and safer. 

Zany: Good idea. I think I will leave it as is, provided it still looks good when dry and works well. I'm too lazy to rebatch unless I need to.


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## ngian (Nov 29, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> As to whether milk sugars or other sugars will cause the soap to volcano, that is not a problem in my experience, so I don't spend any time worrying about it. The volcanoes I've seen and heard about have been triggered by the use of fragrances that contain known accelerants (such as eugenol) or to slowly pouring cool lye solution into unusually hot fat or to heating soap batter on the stove top and not watching the temperature carefully enough.



I want to also add some thoughts to DeeAnna's informative post what I have already learned from her and other's experiences over the past years.

I have never had a volcano in my soaping experience but I think that when we add at trace ingredients such as reactive sugars (fructose, lactose, maltose while table sugar is almost non reactive with NaOH) or fragrances that accelerate saponification, we encourage a volcano to happen.

Trace is a stage when saponification is at its very start producing heat and whatever reactive ingredient we add at that time we add more reaction and thus more heat and if we had already mixed lye and oils at a relative higher than normal temperature, then the total temperature of the mixture could possible activate a volcano.

So I always encourage new soapers to avoid adding anything at trace and instead they should add the reactive sugars (honey, fruit juices, milk, ect) at the very beginning at the lye solution or even better at water prior NaOH in a way that they will not be scorched.

That way the reactive sugars will free all the heating from their reaction just before the saponification starts.

People tend to add valuable ingredients at trace but we already know after Kevin's Dunn lab tests that at trace there is as much as 80-90% available NaOH to react with anything it can find on its way...

If for any coloring of fragrance purposes one must add a reactive ingredient just before molding the mixture, then it is a good practice to add it at full emulsification of oils and lye just as the member *newbie* has already shown here:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39pLHKMtN6o[/ame]


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## Susie (Nov 29, 2017)

Even in proper amounts, all sources of sugars (including milks, beer, wine, honey, fruits, vegetables, etc) can encourage volcanoes no matter when you add them in.  That includes table sugar.  You just have to know your recipe, know your fragrances, know your soaping temperatures, and watch it like a hawk to avoid a mess.  I am not saying to never use sugars, I am saying use due diligence to avoid volcanoes.


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## KelseyintheKitchen (Nov 30, 2017)

Whatever you do, don't put them in a food dehydrator.  I stupidly made the mistake of trying to speed the hardening time of some rebatch soap that I added too much liquid to by putting them in there. The whole house smelled great, since all the FO worked is way out of the soap, and they all warped shape. I'm certain it was the heat, not the airflow that was the problem.  Anyways, don't be stupid and put them in a food dehydrator like me


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## Nanditasr (Dec 10, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> Kevin Dunn did a presentation ... the contaminated areas were ON the soap, not IN it... They should be used in low to moderate amounts and mixed well into the soap.



Thanks for this very informative post, DeeAnna. By that token, can fresh orange zest be added at thin trace to the soap? If yes, is there a rule of thumb on how much is acceptable, and will it retain any smell at all, if I add a little arrowroot? I plan to mix the oils and lye solution at room temperature (about 72-75 degrees F) in the hope of retaining the fragrance.

The other question I have is a most basic one -- how does one figure out that a CP soap is _actually_ cured? In an objective rather than subjective way, I mean -- for example, if my recipe  is at 38% (and 2.7 x lye weight) and I use 228 grams water and 600 grams oil, and the wet soap mixture is about 910 grams, can I assume that my soap is cured when its weight (total of all the now cut pieces) reduces by about half the water weight (about 115 grams)?


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## Susie (Dec 10, 2017)

Fresh orange zest will rot inside of the soap.  I bought some soap early in my soaping experience with some in it.  At about 3 weeks after purchase, the bar had little rotten spots all in it, followed by a fine case of DOS.

If you make a batch of soap today, then another in 6 weeks, you could test them against each other and tell one is cured and one is not.  Or you could test your batch weekly and see when the lather and overall quality stops improving.  That is when your soap is cured.  Far more is going on than moisture loss.


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## Nanditasr (Dec 10, 2017)

Susie said:


> Fresh orange zest will rot inside of the soap.



Thanks. In that case, dried and powdered orange zest it shall be!


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## DeeAnna (Dec 10, 2017)

"...In an objective rather than subjective way, I mean ... can I assume that my soap is cured when its weight (total of all the now cut pieces) reduces by about half the water weight (about 115 grams)? ..."

Cure is not just about water evaporation, so the strict answer is "no." It's also about improvement in lather quality, skin feel after washing, and longevity. I don't know how you can determine some of these qualities in an utterly objective way. Even commercial soap makers don't have that all figured out.

It is true that many soaps made with a blend of fats (and thus a blend of fatty acids) are going to be cured enough in 4-8 weeks to please most people. That also happens to be about the time when the weight loss slows substantially, so measuring the rate of weight loss is a simple, fast way to monitor soap. But this rule of thumb that does not invariably hold true -- a slowing rate of weight loss doesn't always mean the soap is sufficiently cured and performing at its best. 

The soap that taught me this fact was a soap very high in lard (stearic and palmitic acids). It did not lather well a month or two after making, but was a very pleasant soap to use at 1 year. If I decided weight loss was the only basis for determining it was sufficiently cured, the soap would have ended up in the trash. It almost did anyway, but I'm glad I gave it a final chance to prove its worth.


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## lsg (Dec 11, 2017)

I agree with DeeAnna; curing is more than just moisture evaporation.  Give your soap a good 4 weeks to cure.  Six weeks is even better.


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## tlsweet (Dec 26, 2017)

I have to agree with many of the more experienced soapers comments listed throughout this lengthy thread. 
I've been making soap for 6 months now. I've found using a 2:1 lye to water mixture helps the soap release from the mold quicker. However, it doesn't make it cure any faster. I've tried bars of soap after 6 weeks, and later came back another month or two to find that same soap better. For me that meant it created more lather and was more creamy. 
Lesson Learned: Wait at least 6 weeks. 

Teena


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## hoegarden (Dec 28, 2017)

soapbuddy said:


> CPOP or ITMHP is the same thing. You make the soap, bring it to trace, pour into your mold, then put in a warm oven (170 degrees) for 1 hour. Turn the oven off and leave it there overnight. By the next morning, the soap should be ready to cut. If you followed a soap calc correctly, this should be safe to sell after one week.
> You really should wait longer as more water evaporates, but if you can't it's ok after one week.
> 
> Irena



Will this be good for milk soap too?


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## shunt2011 (Dec 28, 2017)

hoegarden said:


> Will this be good for milk soap too?


 
Soapbuddy hasn't been here in some time.  I personally don't do it with my milk soaps.  Due to the sugars in the milk it can cause overheating and will also darken the soap a bit more than normal gel.  I just insulate them well with towels and if need be a heating pad underneath (during the winter).

Some prefer to not gel their milk soaps at all.  

Also, when I do use the oven, I just preheat it and turn it off when I put the soap in the oven and just leave it.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 28, 2017)

Don't use that method for CPOP that Soapbuddy described. It was common a few years ago, but the soap gets too hot and that can cause problems.  Shari's (Shunt) advice works better and has fewer side effects. Milk soap is likely to darken with CPOP, so keep that in mind if you want to keep the soap as light in color as possible.


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## MullersLaneFarm (Dec 29, 2017)

hoegarden said:


> Will this be good for milk soap too?



I do gel my milk soaps (100% milk in lye solution, all I've made for 16 years) using heavy wool blankets, however that is only when using my 9 lb & 12 lb slab molds.  

I do not insulate (or use CPOP or ITMHP) when using my log molds due to over heating.


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## IrishLass (Dec 29, 2017)

As with MullersLaneFarm, I gel my milk soaps, too.... and because I soap my milk soaps with a 33% lye concentration (just the same as I do with my non-milk soaps), I use my oven to ensure that I get a full (instead of partial) gel.....*but* not in the way described by soapbuddy. Years ago, I used to do CPOP in the way she described, but the results were not the best they could be (pock-marked soap, oil leakage, etc....). 

As I (and many others) eventually learned the hard way, an oven temp of 170 degrees F for 1 hour is overkill unless you are HPing and giving your batter a thorough stirring every now and then. For CP soap batter that is just sitting stationary in its mold in a 170 degree oven without the intention of ever being stirred, it can spell trouble, if not total disaster (overheating, separation, volcanoing, etc...), even in soaps without milk.

When I CPOP, I preheat my oven to only 110F (achieved within 3 minutes of having turned my oven on), and I turn the oven off as soon as I place the soap in the oven and close the oven door. Sometimes I preheat as high as 120F before turning it off (with certain soap formulas), but never higher than 120F, ever. With a milk soap, I never go higher than 110F.


IrishLass


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## MorpheusPA (Dec 29, 2017)

Thanks for that--I preheat to 170° and turn it off when I put the soap in.  It works, but the soap often looks like the surface of the Moon.

That's fine for home use, but I'd rather gifts didn't do that!


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## ngian (Dec 29, 2017)

For me the cpop method is inserting the wooden mold in the oven around 60-70°C and I'm watching it every 10 min and when it passes the full gel phase I close the oven and put the mold outside the oven.
This can be done in a 20 min time or even more (1 hour max) depending on the water amount in the recipe.

Otherwise if I just leave it for one hour without checking it, alien brains or small bubbles will be possibly made.


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## Nanditasr (Jan 1, 2018)

DeeAnna said:


> It is true that many soaps made with a blend of fats (and thus a blend of fatty acids) are going to be cured enough in 4-8 weeks to please most people.



Does the temperature of the curing area affect the extent to which the soap will cure? Will there be a difference in cure time in summer vs. winter? Say, at 85 degrees F/30 C (my summer), vs. 65 F/18 C (my winter -- right now), or colder? 

Are there any maximum/minimum temperatures to be observed while curing? Of course, in all cases, I assume the humidity is fairly low.


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## Susie (Jan 1, 2018)

Nanditasr said:


> Does the temperature of the curing area affect the extent to which the soap will cure? Will there be a difference in cure time in summer vs. winter? Say, at 85 degrees F/30 C (my summer), vs. 65 F/18 C (my winter -- right now), or colder?
> 
> Are there any maximum/minimum temperatures to be observed while curing? Of course, in all cases, I assume the humidity is fairly low.



No difference in room temperature.  The only thing that achieves cure is time.  4-6 weeks minimum. I do cure mine longer (6-8 weeks) in a more humid environment, just because I like the better lather it provides.


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## Nanditasr (Jan 1, 2018)

Thanks, Susie. I had no idea that the longer cure with slight humidity actually adds to the lathering capabilities. Shall certainly bear this in mind, esp. considering that I am trying to reduce CO to 15 or even 10%, because I find it too drying.


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