# All sorts of questions...



## Sapo (Jun 28, 2016)

Greetings SMF crew.

Been devouring info for a while, first time poster. Tons of great info and helpful people here! I have some experience (CP, HP, LS) but some aspects still bug me .

If someone has a moment to clarify the questions below (or direct me to answers), I'd be most grateful. In no particular order and/or importance:

*Sorry for the wall of text :\.*

*HP/CP*
I've read that saponification is only about 10-20% finished by the time trace is achieved in CP soap making, therefore adding superfats at that stage is largely the same as adding them at the beginning?

Is saponification in HP soap making completely concluded by the time we add superfats, or does the process continue during the curing period, like with CP, albeit on a smaller scale?

... If the above is true, is it correct to say that HP offers superior control over the soap's properties?

*LS*
Can LS be superfatted without emulsifiers (e.g. borax/PS80)? By this I mean; are clouding/separation (Are there any other consequences? Such as faster rancidity etc.?) avoidable without these additives?  Is the point of superfatting LS identical to bar soap - avoiding any possibility of hydroxide excess and increasing emolliency/other properties? Is the superfat added after the cook, much like with HP?

Can LS be formulated exclusively out of "soft" oils? If one wanted to make LS out of local oils (mediterranean), using exclusively stuff like olive and sunflower oil?

When using soap calcs (various, I used soapee) and selecting 90% KOH purity (mine is 90.5%), one need not neutralize as per Failor's natural LS making (2000)?

Most LS recipes seem to use a 3:1 water to KOH ratio for the solution. What happens if you put more or less water (not so little as to prevent the KOH from not being able to dissolve, ofc)?

I used soapee, 90% setting, cooked and diluted everything - everything went as planned. For experimentation's sake and to follow Failor to the T, (allthough I suspect it was not needed) I added citric acid as a neutralizer. This immediatly produced white..... spermy looking, floating little bits in the soap. Any idea what that is? My best guess is that because due to mixing a recipe that already accounts for KOH impurity with a method (Failor) that handles the excess manually, fatty acid separation (de-soaping?) occured when citric acid hit the soap. Am I thinking correctly? Mind you, a 20% salt solution as a thickener did the same thing. Both of them produced floaties. After sequestration, many of the floaties disappeared.

*GLS*

Why does GLS achieve a thicker soap? Is it simply diluted less and the glycerin prevents separation/skin formation?


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## Susie (Jun 28, 2016)

Sapo said:


> Greetings SMF crew.
> 
> Been devouring info for a while, first time poster. Tons of great info and helpful people here! I have some experience (CP, HP, LS) but some aspects still bug me .
> 
> ...



Hey and welcome!  Glad to have you in the forum!  Questions are more than welcome, and walls of text are forgiven instantly, as they are the best way to present multiple questions.



Sapo said:


> *HP/CP*
> I've read that saponification is only about 10-20% finished by the time trace is achieved in CP soap making, therefore adding superfats at that stage is largely the same as adding them at the beginning?
> 
> Is saponification in HP soap making completely concluded by the time we add superfats, or does the process continue during the curing period, like with CP, albeit on a smaller scale?
> ...



Yes, HP offers the best control over the oil in the superfat.  However, the soap's *properties* are controlled by the oils chosen and the amount of superfat.



Sapo said:


> *LS*
> Can LS be superfatted without emulsifiers (e.g. borax/PS80)? By this I mean; are clouding/separation (Are there any other consequences? Such as faster rancidity etc.?) avoidable without these additives?  Is the point of superfatting LS identical to bar soap - avoiding any possibility of hydroxide excess and increasing emolliency/other properties? Is the superfat added after the cook, much like with HP?



Yes, you can superfat up to 3% without emulsifiers.  Superfat is added up front in the recipe, not at the end.  If you add oils after the paste gels, you run the risk of separation.  Yes, the point of superfatting for LS is the same as for bar soap.  



Sapo said:


> Can LS be formulated exclusively out of "soft" oils? If one wanted to make LS out of local oils (mediterranean), using exclusively stuff like olive and sunflower oil?



Yes, but it is not going to be the best liquid soap, in my opinion.  I like the lather when I add some coconut and castor oils. 



Sapo said:


> When using soap calcs (various, I used soapee) and selecting 90% KOH purity (mine is 90.5%), one need not neutralize as per Failor's natural LS making (2000)?



True.  No need to neutralize soap with a 0 or more superfat.



Sapo said:


> Most LS recipes seem to use a 3:1 water to KOH ratio for the solution. What happens if you put more or less water (not so little as to prevent the KOH from not being able to dissolve, ofc)?



If you use less than 3:1 water ratio, the paste is hard and difficult to stir.  If you use more (even 4:1), it takes forever to get emulsified and to paste stage.  



Sapo said:


> I used soapee, 90% setting, cooked and diluted everything - everything went as planned. For experimentation's sake and to follow Failor to the T, (allthough I suspect it was not needed) I added citric acid as a neutralizer. This immediatly produced white..... spermy looking, floating little bits in the soap. Any idea what that is? My best guess is that because due to mixing a recipe that already accounts for KOH impurity with a method (Failor) that handles the excess manually, fatty acid separation (de-soaping?) occured when citric acid hit the soap. Am I thinking correctly? Mind you, a 20% salt solution as a thickener did the same thing. Both of them produced floaties. After sequestration, many of the floaties disappeared.



Yes, you over neutralized the soap and got separation.  




Sapo said:


> *GLS*Why does GLS achieve a thicker soap? Is it simply diluted less and the glycerin prevents separation/skin formation?



I do not know for sure, so wait for one of the more sciencey folks to come answer.  However, my thought is that the glycerin is simply more thick to start with.  The glycerin does not prevent skin formation, you still need the correct amount of water to dilute.  The correct amount just happens to be less.  

Also, if you are referring to IrishLass' recipe in particular, it is higher in olive oil and the fatty acids in there simply require less water to dilute as compared to coconut oil.


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## DeeAnna (Jun 28, 2016)

Applause from the peanut gallery! Nice answers, Susie!


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## Sapo (Jun 28, 2016)

> Yes, you can superfat up to 3% without emulsifiers.  Superfat is added up front in the recipe, not at the end.  If you add oils after the paste gels, you run the risk of separation.  Yes, the point of superfatting for LS is the same as for bar soap.



are EOs part of the superfatting percentage?



> Yes, but it is not going to be the best liquid soap, in my opinion.  I like the lather when I add some coconut and castor oils.



Yeah true forgot about that, thanks. What would you (and others) consider the minimum amount of coconut/castor required?



> Also, if you are referring to IrishLass' recipe in particular, it is higher in olive oil and the fatty acids in there simply require less water to dilute as compared to coconut oil.



I've seen it around but I suck at navigating the forum for some reason, can't find it.


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## kchaystack (Jun 28, 2016)

Sapo said:


> are EOs part of the superfatting percentage?



Nope, EO's do not saponify.  





> Yeah true forgot about that, thanks. What would you (and others) consider the minimum amount of coconut/castor required?



5% is the minimum for oils.  For coconut, most people seem to use at least 10% if they are going to use it at all.




> I've seen it around but I suck at navigating the forum for some reason, can't find it.



http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974


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## wbocrafter (Jun 28, 2016)

What does LS & GLS mean?


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## kchaystack (Jun 28, 2016)

wbocrafter said:


> What does LS & GLS mean?



LS - liquid soap 

GLS -  glycerin liquid soap (the lye is made with KOH and glycerine mainly)


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## Sapo (Jun 28, 2016)

> What does LS & GLS mean?



Liquid soap/glycerin liquid soap

One more question (*thanks to everyone for the clarifications so far!*):

It was my understanding that Failor intentionally used a lye excess (of about 10%?). It was also my understanding that the soap calculators we use account for the standard impurities of KOH (unlike Failor), thus making neutralization unnecessary.

Why then, do you basically get the same recipe from the calculators as from the book?

E.g. from the book:
*48 oz. olive oil
10 oz. KOH
30 oz. water*

soapee:
*48 oz. olive oil
10.13 oz. KOH
30.4 oz. water*

soap calc:
*48 oz. olive oil
10.13 oz. KOH
30.4 oz. water*

summerbeemeadow:
*48 oz. olive oil
9.77 oz. KOH
29.32 oz water*

Confused


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## IrishLass (Jun 28, 2016)

Welcome Sapo! :wave:

Susie gave you great answers, but I just wanted to add something extra.....



Sapo said:


> Is saponification in HP soap making completely concluded by the time we add superfats, or does the process continue during the curing period, like with CP, albeit on a smaller scale?


 
Saponification is complete in HP when the cooked batter no longer zaps (the ideal time in which to add your superfatting oil), but complete saponification is only the beginning.... other things happen inside the soap matrix during cure, things such as the organization of the crystalline structure, and a slight decrease of the pH, etc... all of which help any soap, whether CP or HP, become more mild over time and achieve better lathering abilities, etc....




Sapo said:


> *LS*
> Can LS be superfatted without emulsifiers (e.g. borax/PS80)? By this I mean; are clouding/separation (Are there any other consequences? Such as faster rancidity etc.?) avoidable without these additives? Is the point of superfatting LS identical to bar soap - avoiding any possibility of hydroxide excess and increasing emolliency/other properties? Is the superfat added after the cook, much like with HP?


 
It's as Susie said- yes. I superfat (up front) one of my formulas at 3% without the addition of PS80, and the soap is great- no separation or rancidity or anything like that. However, I have another formula that I superfat 3% up front and about 4% after the fact, but I do add a little PS80 with that one because it separates if I don't.



Sapo said:


> *GLS*
> 
> Why does GLS achieve a thicker soap? Is it simply diluted less and the glycerin prevents separation/skin formation?


 
I do not know about the why, I just know that it does. lol 



			
				Sapo said:
			
		

> What would you (and others) consider the minimum amount of coconut/castor required?


 
I'm a bubbly lather lover, so I like to use more than the average person rather than less. My minimum when it comes to my liquid soap is 25%. That's the amount I use in the formula that I make with 65% olive oil and 10% castor, superfatted at 3%. In the other formula that I make (my creamy cocoa shea formula), I use 35% CO, superfatted at about 7%.




			
				Susie said:
			
		

> Also, if you are referring to IrishLass' recipe in particular, it is higher in olive oil and the fatty acids in there simply require less water to dilute as compared to coconut oil.


 
Actually, I've found my 100% coconut oil GLS needs very little water to dilute indeed- amazingly so: 74% paste to 26% water. 


IrishLass


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## Susie (Jun 28, 2016)

IrishLass said:


> Actually, I've found my 100% coconut oil GLS needs very little water to dilute indeed- amazingly so: 74% paste to 26% water.-IrishLass



Is your dilution method the same as for GLS, just with smaller amounts of water?


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 29, 2016)

Sapo said:


> When using soap calcs (various, I used soapee) and selecting 90% KOH purity (mine is 90.5%), one need not neutralize as per Failor's natural LS making (2000)?



Failor didn't account for the typical moisture content of KOH. We assume 90% caustic strength and add additional to compensate. Failor assumes 100% caustic strength and adds additional to assure complete saponification. That's why her KOH amounts and ours are the same.



Sapo said:


> Why does GLS achieve a thicker soap? Is it simply diluted less and the glycerin prevents separation/skin formation?



The answer to this is actually in Failor's book. She uses glycerin and/or alcohol and sugar as solubilizers that can help with clarity ("sequestering agents") as well as for creating gels or thicker liquid soap. It works because glycerin is a better soap solvent than water and decreases the amount of liquid needed for dilution.

The way people use glycerin now enhances clarity with less concern about complete saponification, and produces slightly thicker soap because of its solvent properties. We also take advantage of these properties to make the paste more easily by adding glycerin up front. Failor doesn't use glycerin for that, but has an alcohol method that is based on the same principle.


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## Sapo (Jun 29, 2016)

> Failor didn't account for the typical moisture content of KOH. We assume 90% caustic strength and add additional to compensate. Failor assumes 100% caustic strength and adds additional to assure complete saponification. That's why her KOH amounts and ours are the same.



Understood. But wouldn't the fact that we're adding the same amounts mean that she always over-neutralizes in her recipes (since we don't have to)?



> I'm a bubbly lather lover, so I like to use more than the average person rather than less. My minimum when it comes to my liquid soap is 25%. That's the amount I use in the formula that I make with 65% olive oil and 10% castor, superfatted at 3%. In the other formula that I make (my creamy cocoa shea formula), I use 35% CO, superfatted at about 7%.



Isn't everyone :mrgreen:? I'm gonna attempt 0%, 25% and 35% CO Lsoaps then. Made a 50-50 (CO+OO) and it's quite epic, but I'm really gonna try and see just how far I'm able to stretch it.



> Actually, I've found my 100% coconut oil GLS needs very little water to dilute indeed- amazingly so: 74% paste to 26% water.



Dang, that is some concentrated stuff.



> It's as Susie said- yes. I superfat (up front) one of my formulas at 3% without the addition of PS80, and the soap is great- no separation or rancidity or anything like that.



At 3% the clarity is unaffected, I assume?


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## IrishLass (Jun 29, 2016)

Sapo said:


> At 3% the clarity is unaffected, I assume?


 
Correct- the clarity (in the 65% OO formula) is completely unaffected. I always end up with a crystal clear soap.


IrishLass


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## topofmurrayhill (Jun 29, 2016)

Sapo said:


> Understood. But wouldn't the fact that we're adding the same amounts mean that she always over-neutralizes in her recipes (since we don't have to)?



You would think so. I can't explain why it seemed to work for her. When I initially made LS Failor-style I calculated the lye excess in addition to assuming 90% caustic strength and that seemed to work out well. I suppose LS is actually fairly forgiving of variations in formulation.


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## IrishLass (Jun 29, 2016)

Susie said:


> Is your dilution method the same as for GLS, just with smaller amounts of water?


 

Yes, although I should make mention that this particular dilution rate is based on having dissolved my KOH in glycerin, as opposed to mixing the KOH 50/50 with water before adding my usual/full complement of glycerin.

IrishLass


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## Sapo (Jul 13, 2016)

Random question time...

From Dr. Bronner's website:



> Citric Acid
> Citric Acid is used in our soaps to adjust the pH level and help “superfat” them, making them more moisturizing. The Citric Acid used in our soaps is Non-GMO verified.



They are probably formulating the soap with a lye excess, otherwise that statement doesn't make much sense, right? A 0% lye excess soap would have the same pH as one neutralized by CA, right?


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## TheDragonGirl (Jul 13, 2016)

Sapo said:


> Random question time...
> 
> From Dr. Bronner's website:
> _Citric Acid
> ...



I think this: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=60408 actually talks about what they're doing with that!


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## Susie (Jul 13, 2016)

They are using a very low superfat to start with, possibly even a lye excess.  Then "neutralizing" or superfatting by adding citric acid later.  I say skip the extra steps and start off with a superfat.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 13, 2016)

Sapo said:


> They are probably formulating the soap with a lye excess, otherwise that statement doesn't make much sense, right? A 0% lye excess soap would have the same pH as one neutralized by CA, right?



Making soap involves breaking up the oil molecules into their constituent fatty acids, which react with the alkali to become the sodium (for bar soap) or potassium (for ls) salts of fatty acids. Adding an acid shifts the equilibrium of this reaction so that there is less soap and more free fatty acid. Fatty acids are basically liberated from the soap as you partially reverse the the saponification reaction.

Residual fats in soap or free fatty acids in soap are both called a superfat. Fats and fatty acids can both contribute emollient properties. The difference with a fatty acid superfat is that it results in a soap with a lower pH.

You don't need a lye excess to neutralize the soap with citric acid. You can use a lye discount and perhaps have residual oil, so adding an acid would give you both types of superfat, residual oil and fatty acids.

You can neutralize the soap to any pH you want, but as you go lower you have less soap and more fatty acid. Taking it too far is counterproductive.


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## Sapo (Jul 13, 2016)

Understood, but wouldn't the partial reversion of the saponification process be apparent, if they actually did it? Their soap is clear and in my tests the "overneutralization" resulted in white floating/blobs of FFAs - which in my tests either float on top, or can be sort of emulsified back into the whole thing by reheating (neither scenario seems to be the case in Dr. B's).

Which leads one to believe they might just be countering the lye excess, like Susie said? More specifically, it is my assumption that they are possibly using it as a chelator? Which is kind of what I'm researching right now, because I want to do it...but *I don't know how much CA to add! Any ideas?* I'm aware I'll need to add 8.42 KOH for every 10g citric-allthough I don't know if 90% KOH is what is used for that calculation.

For giggles, I tried adding a massive amount of CA, achieved 50% separation, heated the sucker up and made LS that went from clear amber to completely white and useless (the FFAs are so sticky that it takes 10min of scrubbing with dishwashing detergent to get them off).

Thanks for the thread DragonGirl, will devour it now.


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## Sapo (Jul 16, 2016)

Does adding a 20% salt solution as a thickener also reverse saponification? The white blobs appear the same as when adding a CA solution.

If not, what then?

Edit: Failor writes: 





> Glycerin is typically “grained” (separated) out of commercial soap with common salt, then sold as a raw material.



Is that glycerin separating then? How come it re-emulsifies with waiting? What causes the thickening effect anyway, with salt?


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 17, 2016)

Sapo said:


> Does adding a 20% salt solution as a thickener also reverse saponification? The white blobs appear the same as when adding a CA solution.
> 
> If not, what then?
> 
> ...



Hi! Salt doesn't reverse saponification at all.

Looking first at bar soap: sodium soap and sodium chloride are salts that both have sodium as the positive ion in solution. Salt is a much stronger electrolyte in that it dissociates completely into positive and negative ions when it dissolves. This has the effect (called the common ion effect) of decreasing the solubility of the soap. The soap precipitates out of solution and floats to the top of the kettle. That's how it's separated from the glycerin in the boiled method of soapmaking. It's commonly called salting out.

What happens when you add sodium chloride to potassium soap may be more complex, but for whatever reason it seems like it might have a similar effect of reducing the solubility of the soap. This could explain the thickening and the separation. But the better material to thicken liquid soap is potassium chloride. It's obtainable, so we should try it sometime.


Sapo said:


> Understood, but wouldn't the partial reversion of the saponification process be apparent, if they actually did it? Their soap is clear and in my tests the "overneutralization" resulted in white floating/blobs of FFAs - which in my tests either float on top, or can be sort of emulsified back into the whole thing by reheating (neither scenario seems to be the case in Dr. B's).



Well, first let me say that for purposes of discussion I am taking them at their word. They talk about using an acid to change the pH of soap and create a superfat. What they mean by that is unambiguous.

FFAs in liquid soap don't necessarily separate or look cloudy. I have made experimental LS using only fatty acids -- no oil -- and even with a significant lye discount it came out clear as glass. Here is a patent describing that particular technique:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4310433

This also produces a soap with a lower pH. Quoting from the patent:

_The ratio of neutralized to unneutralized fatty acids in the compositions herein is from about 24:1 to about 7:1, preferably from about 14:1 to 7:1. Fully neutralized potassium soap compositions, when measured as a 1% solution based on total fatty acids, have a pH of about 10.3. The compositions herein have a pH of from about 8.7 to 9.7 when measured on a 1% total fatty acids solution basis.
_

Using an acid is preferred when you can get away with it, because oils are way cheaper than fatty acids. The result depends on how much FFA is released and which fatty acids are involved. Some, like oleic acid, are clear liquids. Some are somewhat soluble in the presence of soap. You would want to keep free palmitic and stearic to a minimum (notice what oils they are using for Dr. B's).


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## Sapo (Jul 17, 2016)

What you say makes sense. Sorry for being a hardass, I'm just trying to wrap my head around these things and lacking a chemist's background is getting in the way .

If I was to attempt creating a 0% SF soap, then adding an appropriate amount of CA to achieve 3% SF (more is likely not wise?), when would I add the CA? Confused here again because I fail to see how it would be spread around properly while the soap is in paste stage - so I instinctively assume the correct time to add it is when the soap is diluted. But as explained above, my chemical ignorance makes me make false assumptions, I'd rather ask .

As usual, I greatly appreciate the help.

I've added CA to diluted soap, white blobs appeared, floated on the surface and did not re-emulsify.

I stick blended the whole thing, the FFAs re-emulsified perfectly. Now I know it is possible to make a completely CP-LS, start to finish (including cold dilution), that is superfatted with FFAs, without adding any additional emulsifiers.

My pH strips show, as usual, inconclusive (2 different strips that show 2 different readings) results, but guaranteed lower pH than it's pre-CA master batch. pH 8-9 vs. 9-10.

Phenolphthalein colors to fuschia when applied to the master batch, but stays colorless in the CA batch. Does this mean the pH went under 8.2? Is that even possible? The amount of CA applied was not much, in fact far less than intended.

Does a truly reliable way of testing soap's pH exist, if price isn't a factor?


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 26, 2016)

Sapo said:


> I've added CA to diluted soap, white blobs appeared, floated on the surface and did not re-emulsify.
> 
> I stick blended the whole thing, the FFAs re-emulsified perfectly. Now I know it is possible to make a completely CP-LS, start to finish (including cold dilution), that is superfatted with FFAs, without adding any additional emulsifiers.
> 
> ...



Hi, thanks for reporting your interesting results! I'm sorry that I forgot to respond to the question you asked a while back, but yeah the time to acidify is after dilution, so you did the right thing. Please keep us posted on any other observations you have about the soap such as how it feels and smells and how it reacts to added fragrance.

Funny thing is, you may have actually done the exact thing that Failor was doing. I probably noticed a long time ago and then forgot until someone pointed it out recently, but her recipes seem to assume 100% KOH strength. That cancels out her lye excess if you assume 90% KOH.

Try the phenolphthalein with a 1% solution of paste in distilled water. 8.2 does sound a bit low but who knows. To get the most accurate result I think you would need a properly calibrated pH meter. I've never gotten into that so I can't offer any detailed advice.


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## Sapo (Jul 27, 2016)

This next one is probably a shot in the dark. Not that I'm underestimating your knowledge or anything, it just seems that only a few broke bastards like me and Rosche would ever consider it so the information might not be out there, heh.

In this thread...

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=51237&highlight=deeanna+glycerin&page=3

...Rosche talks about substituting glycerin with sucrose due to economical concerns and the similarity of the 2 substances. Any idea if there is any truth to that?

From what I gathered, glycerin provides: better clarity, speedier saponification, better dilution (speed and lesser h2o requirements), aids in sequestering.

Think a 2:1 (or less, that is just the max solubility at 25 centigrade) sugar-water solution for the KOH liquid might achieve some of the same benefits?

Also, while sugar is a preservative in high doses, would it pose a spoil risk if used in lower concentrations?

Yeah, I ask a lot of annoying questions .



topofmurrayhill said:


> Funny thing is, you may have actually done the exact thing that Failor was doing. I probably noticed a long time ago and then forgot until someone pointed it out recently, but her recipes seem to assume 100% KOH strength. That cancels out her lye excess if you assume 90% KOH.
> 
> Try the phenolphthalein with a 1% solution of paste in distilled water. 8.2 does sound a bit low but who knows. To get the most accurate result I think you would need a properly calibrated pH meter. I've never gotten into that so I can't offer any detailed advice.



Yeah, I think that was me about the KOH (im)purities. Its confusing because she was literally doing 0 SF all the time and neutralizing for nothing, heh. Unless she had her hands on some 100% KOH.

I assumed 8.2 because after reading up on it, the sources say it only goes colorless under that. Beats me though.


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## topofmurrayhill (Jul 28, 2016)

Sapo said:


> ...Rosche talks about substituting glycerin with sucrose due to economical concerns and the similarity of the 2 substances. Any idea if there is any truth to that?



There is definitely truth to it in principle. I use sugar as one of the ingredients to make a certain type of non-MP transparent soap. I have only tried it very casually in liquid soap, to help with clarity of a slightly hazy one.

There are several substances typically used as solvents for transparent soap and/or liquid soap. These are alcohol, glycerin, propylene glycol, sucrose and sorbitol. Alcohol can be difficult to work with. Propylene glycol tends to substitute for it and is easier to work with (it's commonly used for MP transparent soap). PG and glycerin in some combination are arguably the most practical ones to facilitate saponification of liquid soap because they are effective, nonvolatile, nonreactive and non-discoloring.

Sucrose and sorbitol are part of this family, and solutions of them have some of the same effects. Normally you see them used in combination with other solvents and typically added at the end to help with clarity. They could plausibly help with saponification when added up front, but I don't know how effective they are on their own, how much you'd need to use or what side effects there potentially are. Experiments are needed, if you feel adventurous.

How to use them is also something to be figured out. KOH may not dissolve in simple syrup, but I've never tried it. My first thought would be to make the solutions separately.

Circumstances under which you might use a preservative in liquid soap can be a matter of personal judgment. It normally doesn't need one, and what would change that isn't always clear-cut. I probably wouldn't do it for soap intended for personal use even if I added sugar.


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