# Syndet shampoo bar - any tips for forming a smooth looking bar?



## DeeAnna

I just made my first test batch of a shampoo bar using synthetic detergents (syndets). DH and I have washed our hair once each with this bar, but so far so good.

My recipe is based on info from Cathy at The Dish (see http://www.soapdisharchives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22602&st=25#) as well as advice from Susan (swift crafty monkey) about her syndet shampoo bars (see http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/shampoo-shampoo-bars-overview.html and http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/shampoo-conditioning-shampoo-bars-for_03.html ) Between those two ladies, I think I'm in reasonably good hands as far as the formulation goes.

I'm still at a loss, however, about how to form the syndet mixture into an attractive bar. Most of the bars I see for sale on etsy and other websites are rather rustic looking and I now know why. 

There are two ways these bars are made -- one is like a bath bomb where the solid powders/flakes are mixed with a bit of liquid and pressed into a mold. The "bath bomb" type of bar has a sandy look:

Ponte Vedra Soap Shoppe: 






Ponte Vedra recipe and method: http://pvsoap.com/solid-shampoo-bar-made-with-sls-needles/

Lush: 





The other method is to melt the syndets and other ingredients to form a homogenous paste that is then pressed into a mold. This paste is really really sticky and has to be glopped, not poured into a container, much like a soft shave soap. Most bars made this way look like this: 

Alaiyna B Bath and Body: 





But the shampoo bars by Scenter Square on Etsy look smooth and refined, like this, and I really like the look:





Does anyone have some tips on how I might get this smooth, polished appearance?


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## Dahila

I have the same problem DeeAnna my bars are ok but not smooth ........


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## doriettefarm

I'm trying to figure out the same thing DeeAnna.  I've been using a tweaked version of swift's shampoo bar recipe and mine turn out more rustic than smooth (like pic#3).  I've only made 3 batches but the most recent batch was probably the most homogeneous looking of the 3.  I do wonder if using the powdered form of SCI would melt down smoother (like pic#4) instead of the prills I've been using.  Which version do you have?


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## doriettefarm

Here's how mine looks when melted, poured & unmolded


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## DeeAnna

According to my order and the label on the product, I have the prill form of SCI. I am used to a prilled chemical looking like small beads that flow really easy, but honestly this stuff looks and acts pretty much like a fine powder. 

My bars look pretty much like yours do. 

The basic recipe I used was fairly similar to Cathy's with a syndet base of Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate (SLSa powder), Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (SCI powder), and cocamidopropyl betaine (CB liquid). The other ingredients were emulsifiers/conditioners (e-wax and conditioning emulsifier), thickener (stearic acid), hemisqualane (an alternative to silicones), coconut oil, preservative (liquid germall plus), panthenol, and fragrance. 

I melted the SCI with the CB to get the SCI melted. That went pretty good. Then I added all the other ingredients to the SCI-CB mixture and heated that until the SLSa melted. The mixture was like stiff, lumpy mashed potatoes at first until I realized I needed to get it heated even more -- above the melt temp of the stearic acid (155-160 F, 68-70 C). Otherwise I was going to have little annoying stearic lumps in the bar. The extra warmth made the mixture more pliable, but it certainly wasn't ever going to flow at all!

I suppose I could add more liquid surfactant (cocamidopropyl betaine) to get a more flowable, moldable product. I actually did add a little extra CB than Cathy's recipe called for, but I realized that more liquid = more softness. I need to see how the bars dry down over time, but I can see it's probably best to use the least amount of liquid possible and still get everything melted and mixed properly.


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## DeeAnna

In looking more closely at the Scenter Square ingredients list, I see she is using several ingredients -- Glyceryl Stearate, Sodium Steroyl Lactylate, and Butylene Glycol -- that function as emulsifiers or humectants and/or texture modifiers. I wonder if the polished, smooth appearance of her bars lies with the use of these additives. Just guessing -- I have no experience with these. Regardless of how she's doing it, I'm impressed!

Ingredients: Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate, Silk Amino Acids, Kokum Butter, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Alcohol NF, Fragrance, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Meadowfoam Oil, Glyceryl Stearate, Sodium Steroyl Lactylate, Panthenol, Butylene Glycol, mineral colorant.  Source....


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## BattleGnome

I don't make syndet bars but based on what everyone is saying, would adding glycerin smooth it out a bit? Or even just plain water with a bit of a cure time tacked on?

I use Pert and there is glycerin on the ingredients list, my husband uses the soon of Head and Shoulders which lists water as a first ingredient. Yea, there's a big difference between liquid and solid shampoo but if it's controlled like with CP then it might be possible?

(This also assumes I understand syndet bars. I haven't done much research on them due to a hatred of what SLS/A does to my skin)


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## DeeAnna

Yes, glycerin could be added to a shampoo bar, but there's a limit to what will work well. Too much and the bar will be soft and perhaps permanently sticky, because the glycerin will never dry down and will attract water from the air. 

The liquid syndet I used (cocamidopropyl betaine) supplies some water. I actually added more CB than my original recipe called for because I wanted the mixture to be less sticky and gloppy when I made it. Adding more CB made the mixture softer, but it was still sticky and gloppy, so I'm not sure I improved matters much. 

But your suggestion, BattleGnome, gives me a thought -- Another ingredient to consider would be sodium lactate. I do know it makes HP soap smoother and more pourable and hardens finished bar soap, whether HP or CP. Maybe it would be helpful in a shampoo bar -- it might be worth studying up on it and giving it a try. I have some but don't use it much. I'm trying to stick as much as I can with soaping and lotion making ingredients I already have, rather than track down and buy yet one more oddball additive.

***

As far as SLS and SLSa being irritating to use -- yes, that's very true. I've learned over the years that any amount of SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate) and I don't get along -- it causes my scalp to get itchy and my hair to feel harsh and dry. If I am in a situation where I have to use a shampoo with SLS, I'll seriously consider not washing my hair. 

I understand from Susan (swift crafty monkey) that combining two or more syndets of different types (anionic, cationic, nonionic) reduces the irritancy of the shampoo. Many commercial shampoos will often use SLS (cheap, lots of lather, cleans well, but high irritancy) with at least one dissimilar syndet to tame the SLS down, but that's not enough taming for SLS to work with my skin and hair.

At this point, I'm not sure about how SLSa and I will get along either. SLSa makes lots of big fluffy bubbles, which is probably why it's a popular sub for SLS, but I know it can be almost as irritating/drying as SLS. 

I chose SLSa and SCI and cocamidopropyl betaine for my first try based on Cathy's and Susan's recommendations. I think you could easily omit the SLSa and use just SCI and cocamidopropyl betaine. If my understanding is correct, this combo will probably make a creamy, low lather that is very gentle.

There are many other syndet combinations out there -- far too many for me to digest -- so I'm going to stick with some combination of these three for now.


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## Soapmaker145

DeeAnna said:


> Ingredients: Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate, Silk Amino Acids, Kokum Butter, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Alcohol NF, Fragrance, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Meadowfoam Oil, Glyceryl Stearate, Sodium Steroyl Lactylate, Panthenol, Butylene Glycol, mineral colorant.  Source....



I suspect the cocoamphodiacetate is what made it smoother.  If it is, you might want to consider if it is worth using because it is not readily biodegradable as opposed to cocamidopropyl betaine which is degraded in under 24 hours.  I wonder if you could add a small amount of propylene glycol and/or glyceryl stearate to make it more fluid and homogeneous. I've never made a syndet.  My suggestion is based on what I would try.


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## doriettefarm

If the powdered SCI doesn't melt smoother than the prills, Soapmaker145's guess seems reasonable to me.  I also used cocamidopropyl betaine and have no experience with the Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate stuff.  I have ordered shampoo bars from a different etsy seller (GetLathered pic below) than DeeAnna's 'smooth' example and hers are pretty smooth as well.  They perform well and also seem a bit harder than mine.  The similar theme in comparing recipes does appear to be the liquid surfactant.


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## DeeAnna

Hmmm. Things to think about. Thank you for the suggestions.

Another thought is using pressure to compact and smooth the mixture. I made a solid conditioner bar tonight -- another first time experiment. I put the mixture into the same mold --a small plastic container -- that I used for the shampoo bar. THe conditioner bar was also going to be rather rustic like the shampoo bar. I started wondering what I could do to improve the appearance. I found a small cup that would fit inside the mouth of the impromptu mold. I put plastic wrap over the conditioner mixture and then pressed down firmly with the cup. That made the top surface of the bar shiny and smooth -- actually looks pretty decent. I have yet to unmold the bar, so I don't know what the rest of it looks like, but I have hopes. Will keep ya posted.

_
Update, 12 hr later_ -- The unmolded conditioner bar has a smoother surface overall, having been pressed firmly into the mold. Still room for improvement, however. In particular, I need to get rid of pesky air pockets. The conditioner bar is formulated quite differently than the shampoo bar, so I need to try this idea with the shampoo recipe to see if simple pressure is helpful for that one too. I also think a very simple mold that is entirely smooth (Get Lathered) or has only a shallow design (Scenter Square) is another key.

What I especially enjoy about this little project is formulating the two recipes -- shampoo and conditioner -- so they compliment each other. Even if I never get that polished elegant look to the bars, I'm still having fun with this.


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## Dahila

mine is not good looking one either DeeAnna, but it does the job


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## Dahila

DeeAnna tell if reverse osmosis water can be used as replacement for distilled water , please?  Sorry for hacking the thread,,


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## DeeAnna

I'd use RO water if I couldn't get distilled, although I'd choose distilled first if I had both to pick from. I'd definitely use RO over tap water. Go for it, Dahlia!


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## Dahila

Thank you so much DeeAnna


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## doriettefarm

We must be on the same brainwave DeeAnna!  I made solid conditioner yesterday and it seems much easier to melt/pour smoothly than the solid shampoo. Once again I used the guidelines on swift's blog to formulate.


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## JillGat

Wait.. are those BRAIN molds?


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## DeeAnna

Yes, I agree the conditioner version is much easier to get a polished look than the shampoo version. I have made 3 mini batches (100 g per batch) of the shampoo so far, all with minor tweaks, and 2 mini batches of the conditioner. Very pleased with both. 

A 45-50 gram shampoo bar gives me and DH about 1 month of shampoos. The conditioner lasts much, much longer than the shampoo, even though I'm also using it as an in-shower lotion bar. It has a slight edge as a hair conditioner but is also nice as a non-greasy silky summer-weight lotion for skin.

Here's my last recipe for the syndet shampoo bar:

Simple shampoo bar (syndet based)

Heated phase
Solid fat … 3% … Possibilities: tallow, lard, palm, mango butter, coconut, babassu, etc. Don't go overboard on fats -- this is a shampoo not a conditioner.
Conditioning emulsifier … 3% … This is a generic version of the emulsifier BTMS. Can use emulsifying wax (e-wax) instead.
Stearic acid … 3% … Thickener. Could substitute cetyl alcohol. Makes the bar a bit less water soluble so it doesn't dissolve too easily.
SCI … 28% … Sodium cocoyl isethionate. Surfactant, powder. Mild. Creamy foam.
SLSA … 33% … Sodium lauryl sulfoacetate. Surfactant, powder. Not quite as mild as SCI. Adds bubbles.
Cocamidopropyl betaine … 26% … aka CAPB. Surfactant, liquid. Do NOT use more CAPB, even though you might want to.

Heated phase OR cool-down phase
Preservative … 0.5% … Preservative is NOT OPTIONAL. I use phenonip and put it in the heated phase. Liquid Germall Plus is fine, but is heat sensitive, so include it in the cool-down phase. See notes below for more.

Cool-down phase
Panthenol … 2% … Optional. If you omit this, add this % to the SCI or SLSA.
Fragrance … 1.5% … Optional. If you omit this, add this % to the SCI or SLSA.

For a pale to medium color -> add 1 drop of liquid colorant per 100 grams of product. Add to the heated phase. I use ultramarine blue or green chromium oxide in glycerin.

Put all ingredients for the heated phase (including colorant if using) into a microwave safe container. Microwave in 15-30 second bursts. Stir thoroughly after each heating. Repeat until all ingredients are all melted and there are no variations in the color (if you're using colorant).

When fully melted and mixed, the product will be a sticky paste. Do NOT add any water, cocamidopropyl betaine, or other water-based ingredients to loosen the product.

Stir in the cool-down ingredients when the temp is below 120 F (50 C). Immediately glop into small containers. I make about 50 grams per bar -- this is about 1 month of shampoos for me and my DH. Put into the refrigerator to cool and firm up. Unmold and let the product dry for a day or two before use.

Notes:

SCI and SLSA are dusty and very irritating to the nose and lungs. When weighing and mixing these products when they're dry, be careful -- work under a vent hood, work outdoors, or wear a respirator.

SCI comes in a flake, noodle or "prill" form. The first two forms may have stearic acid in the product. The prill (a very fine bead) does not, and this is what I am using and what this recipe is based on. If you get SCI with stearic in it, you may want to adjust the recipe.

It may be possible to use SCI for all of the SLSA if you want to try only one solid surfactant. I haven't done this, but I would first try only SCI if I thought I wanted to simplify further.

The temp limit of 120 F (50 C) is critical if using Liquid Germall Plus. If using Phenonip which goes in the heated phase, then the only cool-down ingredients are the fragrance and panthenol. Temperature isn't too critical for these ingredients, so I add them right after I know the mixture is fully melted. That lets me get the paste in the molds as soon as possible when it's warm and easier to handle. The trade-off is there might be a little less fragrance in the finished product, but that's okay with me.

I want to acknowledge that this recipe has been adapted from one provided by "Cathy" at The Dish. My thanks to Cathy for her generosity! 

This recipe is also provided in this thread but I'm repeating it here, cuz I'm the OP for this thread.


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## BrewerGeorge

How about a mechanical solution?  Have you seen those vibrating wands used to drive out air when pouring concrete?  Maybe some kind of shake table would help.


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## Dahila

BG no but as soon as it sets up , I use my soap planer and sharp knife, they look almost decent now


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## DeeAnna

Well, darn, I can't edit my previous post. Grrr. The link in the last sentence is coded wrong. Here's a corrected version:

This recipe is also provided in this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=63410


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## JillGat

DeeAnna,
I noticed a few differences between your shampoo recipe and SwiftMonkey's:

She calls for Incroquat BTMS-50 specifically.  This drove me crazy, as there is such variation between suppliers, even in the chemical name of what BTMS stands for. Your recipe simplified it to "Conditioning emulsifier".  I have some BTMS-25 (does not include stearic acid)... will that work for this ingredient?

She includes "10% SMC or SMO taurate" in her heated phase. You leave it out. What is that?

You leave out the dimethicone in the Cool Down Phase.  Why? What is that, actually?

If I make a 100g bar, the cool down phase ingredients are still only going to be a few grams.  Will I be able to actually mix that tiny amount into the pulpy heated phase ingredients? 

Thanks!


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## kchaystack

JillGat said:


> DeeAnna,
> I noticed a few differences between your shampoo recipe and SwiftMonkey's:
> 
> She calls for Incroquat BTMS-50 specifically.  This drove me crazy, as there is such variation between suppliers, even in the chemical name of what BTMS stands for. Your recipe simplified it to "Conditioning emulsifier".  I have some BTMS-25 (does not include stearic acid)... will that work for this ingredient?
> 
> She includes "10% SMC or SMO taurate" in her heated phase. You leave it out. What is that?
> 
> You leave out the dimethicone in the Cool Down Phase.  Why? What is that, actually?
> 
> If I make a 100g bar, the cool down phase ingredients are still only going to be a few grams.  Will I be able to actually mix that tiny amount into the pulpy heated phase ingredients?
> 
> Thanks!



I am not DeeAnna, but here you go:

In the 2 articles below, Susan talks about using BTMS-25 when the recipe calls for BTMS-50 tho she uses  cetyl alcohol instead of stearic acid.  Both are used as a thickener usually, with stearic acid creating a thicker product than cetyl alcohol.


BTMS is short for behentrimonium methosulfate.  

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/2009/06/substitutions-what-to-use-when-you-cant.html

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2013/06/question-how-much-cetyl-alcohol-to-use.html


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## DeeAnna

JillGat said:


> DeeAnna,
> I noticed a few differences between your shampoo recipe and SwiftMonkey's....



That doesn't surprise me because I didn't use Susan's recipe as inspiration when I created my own version. 

In my post where I provided my recipe, I said the recipe provided by Cathy at The Dish forum is the basis for mine. It's entirely possible that Susan (swift crafty monkey) used Cathy's recipe to create hers since Cathy's recipe probably predates Susan's.

"...She includes "10% SMC or SMO taurate" in her heated phase. You leave it out. What is that?..."

Well, see my previous message. Even if I had done a riff on Susan's recipe, my inclination is to keep things reasonably simple. Susan has a tendency to use a lot of additives because of what she does as a blogger and has people sending her samples and all that. That's just not my style. Also I don't have the money nor desire to keep a cabinet full of various additives.

"...You leave out the dimethicone in the Cool Down Phase. Why? What is that, actually?..."

It's a light silicone that can make the hair easier to detangle and comb. I don't see a lot of benefit to adding this to a shampoo -- it makes more sense to me to put this kind of thing in the conditioner. I use a silicone alternative product called hemisqualane in my conditioner bar -- it serves the same function and helps reduce frizz.

"...If I make a 100g bar ... Will I be able to actually mix that tiny amount into the pulpy heated phase ingredients? ..."

Yes. 

You'd have the same problem if you made a 500 gram batch -- the proportion of the cool down ingredients to the main ingredients doesn't change just because you increase the batch size. If you are concerned, mix the batch as best you can and then put the product in the refrigerator to cool until it's soft but not overly sticky. Then knead the product like bread dough. That will also help.

Regarding the BTMS, KC said it best.


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## JillGat

DeeAnna and KC, you guys are the bomb.  Thanks so much.  You are right, DeeAnna.. Susan aka swiftmonkey got the recipe from Cathy at the Dish and modified it.  I had thought yours was a modification of Susan's, but thanks for the clarification.  I like your recipe better because it calls for fewer ingredients and you actually spell out the names instead of just using acronyms.  I have most of the ingredients now, so can't wait to make shampoo bars!  Thanks again.


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## Dahila

JillGat my recipe does not look like Susan's,  I was working on it for a year tweaking,  so I got one now that I like it and it is much cheaper.  No much left from Susan's just the idea


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## DeeAnna

BrewerGeorge said:


> ...Have you seen those vibrating wands...  Maybe some kind of shake table....



BG, my mind is in the gutter today. :silent:


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## BrewerGeorge

DeeAnna said:


> BG, my mind is in the gutter today. :silent:



I confess, I was imagining what I presume you're also imagining as an easily obtainable source for said vibrations as I wrote that post.  I just decided this place was too gentile to mention it. :evil:


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## JillGat

Dahila said:


> BG no but as soon as it sets up , I use my soap planer and sharp knife, they look almost decent now



Dahila, Would you post a picture?


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## yumyum1311

I recommend plastic moon cake mould. The bar is harden and lasts longer.
Here is my batch with these mould. So cutee haa!!


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## Dahila

JillGat said:


> Dahila, Would you post a picture?


My pics are somewhere in this thread Jill 

Somehow It is hard to believe that mooncake will work on Syndet  , it is too sticky


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## yumyum1311

Well, it depends on how to take the syndet bar out the mold. 
I have 2 mooncake mold and I see this link on Amazon. In Vietnam, they are about 4-5 dollars but you can try.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MFI1W0I/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
:santa::grin::smile::x


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## Dahila

yumyum1311 said:


> Well, it depends on how to take the syndet bar out the mold.
> I have 2 mooncake mold and I see this link on Amazon. In Vietnam, they are about 4-5 dollars but you can try.https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MFI1W0I/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> :santa::grin::smile::x


well I have about 20 mooncakes and the dough is too sticky to use the moon cake even with using bs to wipe it up
Good for you you mastered it


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## yumyum1311

Dahila said:


> well I have about 20 mooncakes and the dough is too sticky to use the moon cake even with using bs to wipe it up
> Good for you you mastered it



oh, some tips I get
- Wait mixed cool, like clay for kid to play or add little moisture( sr I do not know how to describe
- after press, put them in freezer 30min to 1h
- Tap around the mold on table edge 10 times or more, feel the bar come out plate and take it out. The baker make mooncake in traditional way with wood mold, usually tap around the mold to unmold.
These tips really work for me. Goodluck to you


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## Dahila

yumyum1311 said:


> oh, some tips I get
> - Wait mixed cool, like clay for kid to play or add little moisture( sr I do not know how to describe
> - after press, put them in freezer 30min to 1h
> - Tap around the mold on table edge 10 times or more, feel the bar come out plate and take it out. The baker make mooncake in traditional way with wood mold, usually tap around the mold to unmold.
> These tips really work for me. Goodluck to you


thanks I will try one and see , when ever I put dough into it I dust it with baking soda so it relieves easier  I must try


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## yumyum1311

Dahila said:


> thanks I will try one and see , when ever I put dough into it I dust it with baking soda so it relieves easier  I must try



you can combine all tips. Because  I don't have  any powder to dust at that time, so I try to do the way I had seen on TV about making mooncake and it works. When making mooncake, baker have  other tip is rub the mold with oil but i think it doesn't work for syndet bar. Haha


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## Paloma MS

DeeAnna, thank you so much for this. But its impossible for me to access to Susan's (swift crafty monkey) blog. It seems its private. Do you know where else can I see the posts you are sharing here? Thank you!




DeeAnna said:


> I just made my first test batch of a shampoo bar using synthetic detergents (syndets). DH and I have washed our hair once each with this bar, but so far so good.
> 
> My recipe is based on info from Cathy at The Dish (see http://www.soapdisharchives.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=22602&st=25#) as well as advice from Susan (swift crafty monkey) about her syndet shampoo bars (see http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/shampoo-shampoo-bars-overview.html and http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/06/shampoo-conditioning-shampoo-bars-for_03.html ) Between those two ladies, I think I'm in reasonably good hands as far as the formulation goes.
> 
> I'm still at a loss, however, about how to form the syndet mixture into an attractive bar. Most of the bars I see for sale on etsy and other websites are rather rustic looking and I now know why.
> 
> There are two ways these bars are made -- one is like a bath bomb where the solid powders/flakes are mixed with a bit of liquid and pressed into a mold. The "bath bomb" type of bar has a sandy look:
> 
> Ponte Vedra Soap Shoppe:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ponte Vedra recipe and method: http://pvsoap.com/solid-shampoo-bar-made-with-sls-needles/
> 
> Lush:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The other method is to melt the syndets and other ingredients to form a homogenous paste that is then pressed into a mold. This paste is really really sticky and has to be glopped, not poured into a container, much like a soft shave soap. Most bars made this way look like this:
> 
> Alaiyna B Bath and Body:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the shampoo bars by Scenter Square on Etsy look smooth and refined, like this, and I really like the look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have some tips on how I might get this smooth, polished appearance?


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## DeeAnna

Swift Crafty Monkey is not private -- it's now a paid service. She is asking readers to pay at least $1 per month to get that info now. While it's nice to get stuff for free, I understand her decision to ask readers to support her work.
https://swiftcraftymonkey.blog/tag/shampoo-bar/

You can become a member of The Dish (for free) and access Cathy's information about shampoo bars (see the link in my Post #1). 
http://www.thedishforum.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=global&section=register


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## amd

In the May 2018 issue of Handmade Magazine, there was an article by Susan regarding syndet shampoo bars. Pages 22-25 and it has recipes. I have not tried any of them out, and I do not know if these are Susan's recommended recipes or created by WSP. I have not tried any of them, so cannot vouch for if they are good recipes (if they are not Susan's).


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## cmzaha

When I first started making shampoo bars I used one of Susan's recipe and all it did was get mushy and would melt in the heat outdoors, so I had to tweak and make up my own. They are trial and error like anything.


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## earlene

Thank you for sharing that, *amd*.  I learned something new as a result.  I learned that if I save pages to PDF (via the print option), then I can enlarge them enough to read them when I couldn't read them on my screen.  Nice!


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## amd

@earlene that is a good tip to know! I'm getting to the point in my life where I am struggling a bit to read on screen so this will come in handy


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## DeeAnna

I've had the same trouble, Carolyn -- Susan's syndet shampoo recipes might be firm at first, but they soften up in the shower and get progressively softer, even when I take care to let them dry out. They're tolerable in the winter, but not so much in summer.

We have an outdoor shower and the outdoor humidity has been over 90% for the past several weeks. The shampoo bar I have at the outdoor shower has softened to the texture of firm peanut butter, although the regular (lye) soap sitting right next to it is fine. I just pinch off a bit of the shampoo "bar" to wash my hair -- it's not practical to rub it on my hair as a shampoo bar would normally be used. Not what I want, but it's what I've got.


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## Amy78130

When I first started making shampoo bars, I used this recipe http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/handmade101/how-to-make-recipes/conditioning-shampoo-bars.aspx
Perfect every time! They also answer any questions I have!  I did make a few tweaks, looking at each ingredients INCI. I was able to find the ingredients for less at my favorite online supply stores. Wholesale supplies plus is on my favorites list, just not for everything.

This is the recipe that started my obsession. I just joined Susan’s blog and love it! She experiments, always uses percentage for ingredients in her formulas and gives suggestions for swapping out ingredients. To me, it’s been 100% worth the cost of the membership!


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## KimT2au

@DeeAnna I have no advice on recipe but have you thought about piping your dough/batter?


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## DeeAnna

@Amy78130 -- Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check that recipe out and compare it to the ones I've been using. I am also a fan of Susan (swiftcraftymonkey).

@KimT2au -- Not sure what difference piping would make. Can you explain?


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## cmzaha

Amy78130 said:


> When I first started making shampoo bars, I used this recipe http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/handmade101/how-to-make-recipes/conditioning-shampoo-bars.aspx
> Perfect every time! They also answer any questions I have!  I did make a few tweaks, looking at each ingredients INCI. I was able to find the ingredients for less at my favorite online supply stores. Wholesale supplies plus is on my favorites list, just not for everything.
> 
> This is the recipe that started my obsession. I just joined Susan’s blog and love it! She experiments, always uses percentage for ingredients in her formulas and gives suggestions for swapping out ingredients. To me, it’s been 100% worth the cost of the membership!


I had to add in stearic acid to help stop melting, mushing and use BTMS25 or BTM25/50 split. Just using emulsifying wax would not keep mine from getting mushy. With a few minor changes such as some dimethicone, butter and 2 liquid surfs mine recipe is similar


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## KimT2au

DeeAnna said:


> [USER=28070]@KimT2au -- Not sure what difference piping would make. Can you explain?[/USER]




You were saying the batter did not look good in the mould and needed to be put under pressure to get a nice finish.  If you pipe the batter/dough it will be under a slight pressure anyway but I was thinking more of taking the eye away from the imperfections and drawing attention to the shampoo being in the shape of something.  I am not sure if I am explaining that well or not.


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## DeeAnna

@KimT2au -- Okay -- I understand now. Thanks for clarifying!

@cmzaha -- I checked the link to the WSP recipe last night after I wrote my last post. I see my recipe is fairly similar to the WSP version. I'm not getting any warm, fuzzy feeling that the WSP recipe will solve my issue.

Like I said in an earlier post, this general recipe works all right as long as the humidity is fairly low, such as in winter or if the air conditioner is running. It fails when the bar is kept in a hot and humid environment. The shampoo bar at my outdoor shower this summer rapidly turned into a mushy paste. I treat a shampoo bar exactly the same as regular bar soap -- on a dish where it can drain and dry. In the same conditions, regular soap stays fine; shampoo bar does not. I need to make a new batch, so I'll do some more tweaking per your suggestions.


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## amd

@DeeAnna I made the moisturizing shampoo bar recipe from WSP (the only difference I can see is less SCI and added horsetail butter) I posted on this thread. That recipe is holding up well as far as not being mushy goes. I've been using it for three weeks so my small sample bar is just about out. Once it got to a certain thinness, it was very flexible before it would break. Of course, at the moment my house is neither hot or humid. I'll have to wait until next summer to see what it does in those conditions (we have an old house with no A/C so the bedrooms get hot and sticky). Although I'm thinking by then I will have tweaked the recipe a bit.


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## DeeAnna

An update -- The last batch of shampoo bars I made used a recipe shared by a soapy friend. I made a few minor tweaks to compensate for my not having all the ingredients; next batch will be per the recipe. 

Now that it's fall here in Iowa, the weather has been much less humid, and the bars are staying nicely firm in the shower. Like Amd, I too will need to see how this formulation responds next summer to several weeks of 90% humidity -- that will be the proof I need whether a syndet shampoo bar can truly meet the goal of staying sufficiently firm.

One thing I want to share is that sodium lactate is not the be-all-end-all of must-have additives. I'm seeing a lot of people using it in syndet shampoo bars. Sure, SL might help one make an initially firm bar, but I know can meet that goal without SL. Long term firmness is more important to me, and I suspect SL works against that goal, because SL is a humectant. I believe the SL absorbing and holding water vapor is one reason why my previous batch of bars got so very soft when the humidty was high. Also, if your hair gets frizzy in humid weather like mine does, the last thing you want to do is include a humectant in your hair care products.


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## asmita

Does one need to add a chelating agent to ensure good foam in hard water? I don't have access to SLSa so I've used SCI and CAPB. The temperature in summers hit 45C so I need to formulate for that temperature and hard water.


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## DeeAnna

Synthetic detergents don't react with hard water minerals to make soap scum like lye-based soap does, so a chelator isn't needed when working with syndets because soap scum doesn't happen.

Sometimes a chelator is added to some products as part of the preservative system, however. A chelator ties up the trace elements that microorganisms need to thrive, so tiny amounts of a chelator like EDTA are helpful in discouraging microbial growth.


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## asmita

Thanks @DeeAnna !


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## decisions

DeeAnna said:


> Yes, I agree the conditioner version is much easier to get a polished look than the shampoo version. I have made 3 mini batches (100 g per batch) of the shampoo so far, all with minor tweaks, and 2 mini batches of the conditioner. Very pleased with both.
> 
> A 45-50 gram shampoo bar gives me and DH about 1 month of shampoos. The conditioner lasts much, much longer than the shampoo, even though I'm also using it as an in-shower lotion bar. It has a slight edge as a hair conditioner but is also nice as a non-greasy silky summer-weight lotion for skin.
> 
> Here's my last recipe for the syndet shampoo bar:
> 
> Simple shampoo bar (syndet based)
> 
> Heated phase
> Solid fat … 3% … Possibilities: tallow, lard, palm, mango butter, coconut, babassu, etc. Don't go overboard on fats -- this is a shampoo not a conditioner.
> Conditioning emulsifier … 3% … This is a generic version of the emulsifier BTMS. Can use emulsifying wax (e-wax) instead.
> Stearic acid … 3% … Thickener. Could substitute cetyl alcohol. Makes the bar a bit less water soluble so it doesn't dissolve too easily.
> SCI … 28% … Sodium cocoyl isethionate. Surfactant, powder. Mild. Creamy foam.
> SLSA … 33% … Sodium lauryl sulfoacetate. Surfactant, powder. Not quite as mild as SCI. Adds bubbles.
> Cocamidopropyl betaine … 26% … aka CAPB. Surfactant, liquid. Do NOT use more CAPB, even though you might want to.
> 
> Heated phase OR cool-down phase
> Preservative … 0.5% … Preservative is NOT OPTIONAL. I use phenonip and put it in the heated phase. Liquid Germall Plus is fine, but is heat sensitive, so include it in the cool-down phase. See notes below for more.
> 
> Cool-down phase
> Panthenol … 2% … Optional. If you omit this, add this % to the SCI or SLSA.
> Fragrance … 1.5% … Optional. If you omit this, add this % to the SCI or SLSA.
> 
> For a pale to medium color -> add 1 drop of liquid colorant per 100 grams of product. Add to the heated phase. I use ultramarine blue or green chromium oxide in glycerin.
> 
> Put all ingredients for the heated phase (including colorant if using) into a microwave safe container. Microwave in 15-30 second bursts. Stir thoroughly after each heating. Repeat until all ingredients are all melted and there are no variations in the color (if you're using colorant).
> 
> When fully melted and mixed, the product will be a sticky paste. Do NOT add any water, cocamidopropyl betaine, or other water-based ingredients to loosen the product.
> 
> Stir in the cool-down ingredients when the temp is below 120 F (50 C). Immediately glop into small containers. I make about 50 grams per bar -- this is about 1 month of shampoos for me and my DH. Put into the refrigerator to cool and firm up. Unmold and let the product dry for a day or two before use.
> 
> Notes:
> 
> SCI and SLSA are dusty and very irritating to the nose and lungs. When weighing and mixing these products when they're dry, be careful -- work under a vent hood, work outdoors, or wear a respirator.
> 
> SCI comes in a flake, noodle or "prill" form. The first two forms may have stearic acid in the product. The prill (a very fine bead) does not, and this is what I am using and what this recipe is based on. If you get SCI with stearic in it, you may want to adjust the recipe.
> 
> It may be possible to use SCI for all of the SLSA if you want to try only one solid surfactant. I haven't done this, but I would first try only SCI if I thought I wanted to simplify further.
> 
> The temp limit of 120 F (50 C) is critical if using Liquid Germall Plus. If using Phenonip which goes in the heated phase, then the only cool-down ingredients are the fragrance and panthenol. Temperature isn't too critical for these ingredients, so I add them right after I know the mixture is fully melted. That lets me get the paste in the molds as soon as possible when it's warm and easier to handle. The trade-off is there might be a little less fragrance in the finished product, but that's okay with me.
> 
> I want to acknowledge that this recipe has been adapted from one provided by "Cathy" at The Dish. My thanks to Cathy for her generosity!
> 
> This recipe is also provided in this thread but I'm repeating it here, cuz I'm the OP for this thread.



Great thread!  This post was most helpful 

I was making conditioner bars yesterday and I like germall so I had to let the mixture cool - at 50 it was like applesauce and gloppy.  I don't want to use phenonip - is there a different heat tolerant paraben-free, formaldehyde donor-free preservative to use besides germall?


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## SoaperForLife

decisions said:


> Great thread!  This post was most helpful
> 
> I was making conditioner bars yesterday and I like germall so I had to let the mixture cool - at 50 it was like applesauce and gloppy.  I don't want to use phenonip - is there a different heat tolerant paraben-free, formaldehyde donor-free preservative to use besides germall?


Try Optiphen Plus next time.


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## decisions

Thank you!  I was just poking around on WSP looking at options - I had forgotten about Optiphen ~


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## lsg

You have probably seen this already, but I will post it.  I would love a translation, if anyone can help me with the amounts of each ingredient.

https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/video-tutorial-crystal-clear-syndet-bar.74730/#post-764487


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## DeeAnna

There is recipe info in the comments section below the video. You have to go to YouTube itself to see this. Is this what you need, @lsg? -->

配方/Recipe
椰油醯基谷胺酸/Cocoyl glutamic acid: 350g
丙二醇/propylene glycol: 90g
甘油/glycerin: 100g
純水/purified water: 175g
三乙醇胺/triethanol amine: 250g
茉莉花瓣香精/demure jasmine petals fragrance oil: 20ml
氨基酸起泡劑/sodium lauroyl methylaminopropionate: 35g
金箔/gold foil: 適量/moderate


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## lsg

Yes, thanks DeeAnna.


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## decisions

Not looking . . . . .  I don't have most of those ingredients and I'm NOT buying more . . . .  not looking . . . . . . . .


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## Amy78130

Another option, sold on TKB, is Jeecide Cap 4. It can be used up to 80°c and Cap 5 70-75°c. I like them because they're also lip safe for emulsified lip balms.


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## SoaperForLife

Compare the inci for Jeecide Cap 4 and Optiphen...


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## Amy78130

decisions said:


> Not looking . . . . .  I don't have most of those ingredients and I'm NOT buying more . . . .  not looking . . . . . . . .


 I feel ya!!


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