# Soap Drying skin



## DebbieNelson (Apr 18, 2015)

HI all,
Newbie, 
wondering if my Fragrance oil is making my soap drying to my skin. I used Energy from Bambleberry, according to my soap calc it should be very conditioning one batch 62 on SoapCalc and the other 59.  superfatted both one at 6% and did the other at 10% to see if it would help.  any ideas


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## kumudini (Apr 18, 2015)

If you could post your recipe, when it was made, in other words how long it was cured we should be able to troubleshoot. I have no idea of the FO but unless you are sensitive to that one it shouldn't be the reason.


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## DebbieNelson (Apr 18, 2015)

*here is my recipe*

water 12.16 ounces
lye 4.26 ounces
olive oil 58%
coconut 30%
shea butter 5%
castor oil 3%
avocado oil 2%
beeswax 2%
red mica
gold mica
superfat was at 10%
1 OUNCE fragrance oil
THANKS FOR HELP


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 18, 2015)

Was it CP?  How long did it cure for?


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## kumudini (Apr 18, 2015)

Coconut oil at 30% is fairly drying to most people. If you are one of them you should really try to limit it. May be try 10-15%. Other thing is soaps need a cure time of 4-6 weeks before they fully mature and develop the characteristics that soap calc suggests. If you have used it much earlier than that, it could be drying as well.


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## DebbieNelson (Apr 18, 2015)

it was hot process about 2 weeks ago.

so follow up question, could I rebatch and add more shea or mango butter to make it less drying?


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## kumudini (Apr 18, 2015)

I don't think it would help much. May be make HP soap with no coconut oil with some SF and melt this in after the soap has turned the Vaseline phase. And I think you should save a bar or two of this soap to try at the end of atleast 4 weeks and see if turns milder for you.
ETA: or could just wait the cure period and then think about re batching if it's not mild by then.

And may be use those butters to whip up some body butter, that would really help the dry skin.


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## Dahila (Apr 18, 2015)

I would lose my skin with 30% of CO even with high super fat... Some people are ok with it.  I run it through soapcalc and cleansing is 20, that is one drying soap 
*Soap Bar Quality**Range**Your Recipe
*Hardness  29 - 54      yours 38
Cleansing   12 - 22    yours 20
Conditioning   44 - 69            59
Bubbly 14 - 46                23
Creamy  16 - 48              20
Iodine 41 - 70                 60
INS  136 - 165              151
It looks good except cleansing.


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## DebbieNelson (Apr 18, 2015)

Live and learn. thanks for advice.  I am hooked though, having so much fun

thanks for input, think I may try to incorporate some in a new batch


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## IrishLass (Apr 18, 2015)

I'm one of those who would find your recipe to be perfectly fine, especially with a 10% superfat. 

Yes- you can re-melt your soap and add more shea to it make it less drying. It may cut in on your lather some, but it's perfectly do-able.

Since your soap is only 2 weeks old yet- a mere babe (even if HP'd) in my book- it's no wonder (at least to me) that you would feel it to be drying. I would wait at least few more weeks before making a final assessment.


IrishLass


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## shunt2011 (Apr 18, 2015)

I agree with IL, your soap should be nice with 10% SF.  I would just let it sit and cure longer.  It shouldn't be too overly drying. I don't generally go over  25% but with that SF you should be good.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 18, 2015)

This post is mainly to upset the apple cart, because it seems that as a community we have grown complacent in accepting certain beliefs about how to formulate soap.

The worst thing that has happened is the acceptance of Soapcalc qualities as the primary tool for predicting the outcome of a certain oil formulation. These numbers, arrived at by some simple arithmetic, represent just one simplistic idea about what to expect from a recipe. That idea is the tail wagging the dog.

Some people might take it less seriously than others or have discovered new things, but look around at how much those numbers are quoted. As a group, we give that system way more credence than it deserves. Newbies get hooked on it. At this point I think it's become an impediment to learning more because we don't think enough beyond it.

First off, I suggest that the "conditioning" quality people look so closely at is nonsense. Useless. As an indication of recipe mildness, adding up the percentage of unsaturated fatty acids is, pure and simple, wrong.

What these numbers are blinding people to is learning how the proportions of different fatty acids interact to determine soap qualities. For instance, we talk about certain drying effects being proportional to the amount of coconut or other lauric oil in the recipe. Then we marvel at how wildly different people are in their reaction to it. Why would we assume that people are that different when at least a portion of it could be explained by other differences in the soaps?

People have given me soaps to try with a known formula. For instance, one with 20% coconut oil to keep it mild, but a relatively soft recipe that includes some amount of a linoleic oil. I wash my hands thoroughly and dry them. Wait 10 minutes and do it again. Flex my fingers and my skin feels tighter. Obviously a drying soap.

However, I can make a harder soap that's lower in unsaturated fatty acids but significantly higher in lauric oil. It's so non-drying that I cheerfully use it to wash my face. Am I two different people with different sensitivities to coconut oil? No, it's just two different recipes. And guess what? The one with higher "cleansing" and lower "conditioning" is by far the milder soap.

Forget those numbers and free your mind.


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## SoapSap (Apr 18, 2015)

topofmurrayhill said:


> This post is mainly to upset the apple cart, because it seems that as a community we have grown complacent in accepting certain beliefs about how to formulate soap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for sharing this point of view. I use 30% CO in many formulas and have good results. So many people say 30% is way too much that I was beginning to think something was wrong with me. I agree my soaps are so much better after my standard 3 month cure. I would not like my formulas without a good cure.


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## Seawolfe (Apr 18, 2015)

Its only 2 weeks - let it cure another 4 and see if you like it better. 
I don't mind 30% CO as long as it has 7+% superfat and a good long cure.


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## kumudini (Apr 18, 2015)

TMH, I think most of us here agree that the soap calc numbers are just guidelines especially for the beginners. After they have experimented some and really see how their soaps invariably get hard after a cure no matter whether they use mostly hard oils or soft ones. How a castile bar still cleanses. If they were stuck on the numbers there wouldn't be so many different recipes or those castile soaps. But the cleansing number definitely indicates the drying tendency atleast for me. one exception is the salt bar, I still don't get how that is. Our skins are indeed different, so many people in so many threads say they cant use high CO soaps esp not on their faces, which to me means they are speaking from experience not from behind the numbers. Even straight CO on the skin, I have read so many people saying wonderful things about how it is light and so very moisturizing, it never did a thing for me. So we are different in some ways, our sensitivities are different. Not everyone is prone to eczema, psoriasis or acne and rosacea. Not everyone has the perfect skin no matter how perfect they think their diet is. I think its ok to recognize and accept the differences and design something better suited for ourselves. I think that is the beauty of hand making something for yourself and your loved ones.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 18, 2015)

Vkumudini said:


> TMH, I think most of us here agree that the soap calc numbers are just guidelines especially for the beginners. After they have experimented some and really see how their soaps invariably get hard after a cure no matter whether they use mostly hard oils or soft ones. How a castile bar still cleanses. If they were stuck on the numbers there wouldn't be so many different recipes or those castile soaps. But the cleansing number definitely indicates the drying tendency atleast for me. one exception is the salt bar, I still don't get how that is. Our skins are indeed different, so many people in so many threads say they cant use high CO soaps esp not on their faces, which to me means they are speaking from experience not from behind the numbers. Even straight CO on the skin, I have read so many people saying wonderful things about how it is light and so very moisturizing, it never did a thing for me. So we are different in some ways, our sensitivities are different. Not everyone is prone to eczema, psoriasis or acne and rosacea. Not everyone has the perfect skin no matter how perfect they think their diet is. I think its ok to recognize and accept the differences and design something better suited for ourselves. I think that is the beauty of hand making something for yourself and your loved ones.



Agreed. I did not mean to say that all the difference is in the soap, just that differences in the fatty acid balance of soap recipes may not be getting enough consideration. That still leaves plenty of space for differences between people. It also implies that there is more to learn about how to tailor the product for ourselves and loved ones.


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## samirish (Apr 18, 2015)

That would be way too much co oil for my sensitive skin.  Anything above 20% co oil drys me out no matter how long it has cured.


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## DebbieNelson (Apr 18, 2015)

thanks again, yes head is spinning, went the HP route so I can use and sell it sooner, guess I won't hit beginning of market. I am a beekeeper and am looking for other things to sell. soap, deodorant, beeswax candles. Guess I should of been playing all winter


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 19, 2015)

Okay Debbie - I seriously mean no offense but I do not think that you are ready to sell soap. 

You made a soap that you find to be drying to your skin and no idea why. You're are clearly a very new soaper. Now, imagine if one of your customers comes and says to you "I found it drying, why is that?" You have no answer to give as you do not know. When selling something, I think it's better if the vendor actually knows their products very well and can answer questions on it. 

Another case in point, while hp soaps are safe to use sooner, I actually find that they need a longer cure time or they have a very short life time. If you had sold these soaps, your customers would be getting a poor products that, in some ways thankfully, would not last very long at all. 

Put selling on the back burner. Spend a while getting used to what soaping is all about so that you actually could answer questions. A usual guideline is a year or so, depending on the case in question.


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## JBot (Apr 19, 2015)

TOMH: You make some great points, all good things to consider.  My "standard" recipe (which I'm endlessly tweaking, so it's an evolving standard) uses about 30% CO most of the time so far, and I've never found it drying.  I wash my face and my hair with it, no problems.  My rosacea has improved!

While I do notice differences among the various recipes I've tried, I have not found those differences to correspond much with the "cleansing," "conditioning," etc. ratings on SoapCalc.  But I do love SoapCalc for examining the fatty acid profiles of the different oils/butters!


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## Susie (Apr 19, 2015)

I don't like soap with more than 20% CO.  It makes my skin feel tight and dry.  My soaps are plenty hard without additional CO, so I just don't use more than that.  I stopped using the "profile" on SoapCalc a while back once I figured that out.  But I have experience.  The cleansing number sure helped when I was doing trial and error to eliminate that tight, dry feeling.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 19, 2015)

Susie said:


> I don't like soap with more than 20% CO.  It makes my skin feel tight and dry.  My soaps are plenty hard without additional CO, so I just don't use more than that.  I stopped using the "profile" on SoapCalc a while back once I figured that out.  But I have experience.  The cleansing number sure helped when I was doing trial and error to eliminate that tight, dry feeling.



What other oils do you use?


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## DebbieNelson (Apr 19, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Okay Debbie - I seriously mean no offense but I do not think that you are ready to sell soap.
> 
> You made a soap that you find to be drying to your skin and no idea why. You're are clearly a very new soaper. Now, imagine if one of your customers comes and says to you "I found it drying, why is that?" You have no answer to give as you do not know. When selling something, I think it's better if the vendor actually knows their products very well and can answer questions on it.
> 
> ...




no offense taken, you are right. Just like beekeeping I thought it was going to be easier than it is.


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## Susie (Apr 21, 2015)

topofmurrayhill said:


> What other oils do you use?



I am a firm believer in lard.  I use some CO to help with bubbles(yes, I tested it), and castor oil to stabilize those bubbles.  I was using OO to provide extra conditioning, but then discovered that Lard @ 80% solved that conditioning issue nicely.


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