# Same problem with every batch, would appreciate help



## Oldsoaper (Dec 30, 2015)

I have been making plain unscented soap for about eight years because my wife cannot use store bought soap do to sensitivity issues.  The soap is usable but it is not consistent from the top of the mold to the bottom. By that I mean it is always softer and more transparent at the top and gradually gets harder and whiter towards the bottom of the mold.  My molds are 2.5 inch ID PVC pipe eight inches tall.

   I always use the same recipe which is coconut oil 30.37%, Mango Butter 11.19%, olive oil 34.81% and palm kernel oil 23.63%.  A batch turns out to be a little over 10 pounds. The coconut oil is the 92 degree type.

  I do not use a stick blender but stir by hand.  When a trace occurs it is always mild, you can see where drips puddle on the top for a few seconds and I can write my name on the surface and it will stay for a couple of seconds.  The oils do thicken a little but do not look near as thick as what I have seen shown on websites.

  I once stirred a batch for three hours thinking maybe I was putting it in the molds to quickly but I had the same results.

  [FONT=&quot]Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas?  Is this normal?[/FONT]


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## Susie (Dec 30, 2015)

If you would post your entire recipe in weights, we can help troubleshoot much more quickly and effectively.  Thanks!

However, off the top of my head, I would suggest you get a stick blender.  It will speed trace tremendously.  You may, after all, be getting false trace due to Coconut Oil 92 degrees and mango butter hardening up before trace is reached.  Which is likely, because any soap that reaches a true trace can't be stirred 3 hours.  It will set up and start gelling.

Another suggestion is that you are using coconut oil and palm kernel oil.  Both serve the same purpose.  You may want to drop one and add palm oil, lard, or tallow in its place.

And a question:  you used a lye calculator and weighed all the ingredients?  And you are using sodium hydroxide for lye?


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## dixiedragon (Dec 30, 2015)

I agree with Susie. I think your batter is getting too cool and you are getting false trace.


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## shunt2011 (Dec 30, 2015)

I agree with Susie. Post your recipe and we wold be happy to help. I think she may be right about false trace. Also, you most certainly should drop the amount of CO and PKO.  Way too much for most folks. However, I use both and like the combination but don't exceed 22-25%


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## Oldsoaper (Dec 30, 2015)

Thanks for the replies,

  Coconut oil 41 ounces
  Mango butter 15.1 ounces
  Olive Oil 47 ounces
  Palm kernel oil 31.9 ounces
  Sodium Hydroxide 20.15 ounces
  Water 47 ounces

  I do use a very good quality electronic scale.
Also I combine the lye solution with the oils when they are between 115 and 120 degrees.  I normally have them within 1 or 2 degrees of each other.


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## Misschief (Dec 30, 2015)

Here's the SoapCalc profile (as close as I could make it). Personally, I'd use less water. I often use a 1.5:1 water/lye ratio.


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## shunt2011 (Dec 30, 2015)

I would drop the PKO/cO and add lard or Palm. Your cleansing is way too high.


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## Oldsoaper (Dec 30, 2015)

Shunt2011, are you saying to drop both the PKO and CO and add palm or lard at the same percentage of the two?  Sorry but I am old and slow and don't catch on too quick.


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## DeeAnna (Dec 30, 2015)

I agree with the false trace theory. If you are hand stirring and you're starting at a batter temperature of 110 to 120 F, it is very possible that your batter temp is dropping enough for the solid fats to begin to solidify while you are hand stirring. You say you keep stirring for a long time and "...When a trace occurs it is always mild..." That is pretty solid evidence that the "trace" you are seeing really isn't what you think it is.

In the tests I've done, the batter temp can drop quite a bit if saponification does not kick in fast enough . If you can't maintain a reasonable temperature, saponification can slow to a crawl. That is very likely to happen when hand stirring your soap batter. My grandmother had to hand stir her soap too, but she ALSO heated her soap gently while she stirred. When the soap hit a clear trace that was definitely heading into pudding thickness, she poured the soap into a peach crate mold and got good results. 

You should consider heating your soap batter while stirring ... or you should increase your starting temperatures ... if you are unwilling to switch to a stick blender.


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## Oldsoaper (Dec 30, 2015)

I think I definitely need to get a stick blender.
Ok, I think I finally understand what everyone is trying to tell me. Since I would like to use up my existing supplies (social security doesn’t go very far) what do you all think of the following recipe?

  15% or 20.25 oz. -  Coconut oil
  10% or 13.5 oz. – Palm kernel oil
  10% or 13.5 oz. – Mango butter
  35% or 47.25 oz. – Olive oil
  30% or 40.5 oz. – Palm oil

  The only things I would need to buy is palm oil and a stick blender.


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## CaraBou (Dec 30, 2015)

Welcome Oldsoaper. That recipe looks fine.  Are you in the US?  Palm oil is relatively expensive here and harder to find, so you might consider lard if those are issues for you.  Walmart carries 4 lb tubs of lard for less than $7 I think.


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## lenarenee (Dec 30, 2015)

Hi Oldsoaper,

Coconut oil and palm kernel oil perform almost identical jobs - you can us the together, or use one or the other. They provide the big bubbles, and are high in "cleansing" - meaning they can strip your skin of it's natural oils so people find it drying in high amounts.

Your original recipe with both palm kernel and coconut is extremely high in cleansing.  (I could not use that soap!) The second recipe you posted is still pretty high, but some soapers still like that percentage. I prefer no higher than a total of 20% coconut and/or palm kernel oil. 

Instead of buying palm oil, would you be willing to try lard?  Its fantastic for soap and you can make an inexpensive yet wonderful recipe with only 2 ingredients - 80% lard, 20% coconut or palm kernel (or half and half). You can also do 100% lard.

You can still use up all the ingredients you have on hand; let me share an example of a couple recipes I use.

70% lard, 15% coconut or palm kernel, 15% olive (or sunflower or safflower oil)

50% lard, 20% coconut or palm kernel, 20 olive, 10% mango.

Most importantly, since you're on a strict budget please let me offer to send you a couple bars of my lard soap for your wife to try before you commit your precious ingredients to a new recipe. We also have 4 stick blenders and I'd love to send you one of the extras. Send me a private message if you're interested!


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## shunt2011 (Dec 31, 2015)

Oldsoaper said:


> Shunt2011, are you saying to drop both the PKO and CO and add palm or lard at the same percentage of the two?  Sorry but I am old and slow and don't catch on too quick.




Just drop the % of them.  Say 10% CO and 13% PKO. Then add the difference to palm or lard.


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## Susie (Dec 31, 2015)

If you are having to buy more palm, and you aren't opposed to using animal fats, I am going to tell you to go buy some lard.  It is *much* cheaper than palm, and makes wonderful soap.  Here is the recipe I would use with your current ingredients and the addition of lard:

Coconut Oil 10%
Palm Kernel Oil 5%
Mango Butter 10%
Olive Oil 25%
Lard 50%

I would also suggest you look at your local thrift stores (Goodwill and the like) for stick blenders and a crock pot.  They often have them, and they are usually cheap.  I got my back ups there.


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## lionprincess00 (Dec 31, 2015)

I agree. Her sensitive skin may be irritated by such high cleansing. Most keep co at 20% and some go below that when their skin is sensitive. You split your total co% with the pko, not add them together. Over 20% for sensitive skin is still just too high imo.

Susie has a great alternative recipe as do the others.
Lard is in big buckets in the baking aisle in walmart. Its the cheapest I've found,  and so reasonably priced compared to other fats and oils you should really consider it. It's also so gentle on the skin compared to other hard fats.


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## Oldsoaper (Dec 31, 2015)

Thanks everyone.  Lard it will be.  As soon as I make new batch I will post how it turns out.  The support on this forum has been great, Thanks again.


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## IrishLass (Dec 31, 2015)

How does your wife's skin react with your soap recipe 'as is'? I ask because everyone's skin is different in how much of the cleansing oils such as coconut and/or pko they can tolerate. Some people can only tolerate 10%, while others are quite happy with 30% or more (like me!  ). If your wife is happy with the soap and her skin is doing fine with it, there's really no need to change your formula, although I would definitely get a stickblender. 

But, if you want to try something different so she can compare, your re-vamped recipe below that you posted earlier in this thread looks great to me: 

15% or 20.25 oz. - Coconut oil
10% or 13.5 oz. – Palm kernel oil
10% or 13.5 oz. – Mango butter
35% or 47.25 oz. – Olive oil
30% or 40.5 oz. – Palm oil

Believe it or not, it's actually very close to one of my keeper formulas, only I use more CO/PKO (31.5%) and a mixture of lard and tallow instead of palm, although lard itself would do very nicely for the palm. 


IrishLass


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## topofmurrayhill (Dec 31, 2015)

Oldsoaper said:


> Thanks everyone.  Lard it will be.  As soon as I make new batch I will post how it turns out.  The support on this forum has been great, Thanks again.



Proceed cautiously if you get a stick blender, so it doesn't thicken up more than you expect. That gadget can save you a little labor, but if you just make this one recipe it should also trace pretty easily with just a plastic whisk and have no separation issues. Besides the good recipe advice, the key information you got here is that you need to increase your soaping temperatures so the oils don't start to congeal while you're working with the batter.


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## Oldsoaper (Jan 1, 2016)

What temperature should I combine oils and lye and what should temp should I try to maintain until trace occurs?


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## traderbren (Jan 1, 2016)

On my lard recipes, I try to combine the lye solution to my oils when both are about 110F. If the lard gets too cool, it starts to resolidify and starts to look like its tracing when it's really not.

Also, not sure if it's been mentioned but try not to let the lard get too hot, or it can smell a bit piggy...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 1, 2016)

Oldsoaper said:


> What temperature should I combine oils and lye and what should temp should I try to maintain until trace occurs?




Are you changing to the blender?

If you are not looking to swirl or anything, one option is the heat transfer method. You make your lye water using just room temp water and as soon as the lye is dissolved you pour it on to your solid oils and use the heat from the lye water to melt them down. Then add in your room temp liquid oils.

If you're hand stirring, I don't know if that would work though


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## Oldsoaper (Jan 1, 2016)

IrishLass, she has complained lately that it is drying her skin too much and is causing her eczema to come back.
The Efficacious Gentleman, I am planning on trying the stick blender.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 1, 2016)

"... What temperature should I combine oils and lye and what should temp should I try to maintain until trace occurs? ..."

Basically you need to keep the temp of your soap batter right at or a bit above the melting point of your blended fats. And you need to maintain this temperature during the time it takes to get the soap to trace. If that is the 115 to 120 degrees F that you mentioned earlier -- and that seems quite reasonable -- then that is your goal. 

When you use a stick blender, you can warm the fats until they are just melted, add lye that is pleasantly warm to the touch, and stick blend and hand stir to trace in a short time. Because it generally doesn't take a long time to get to trace with a stick blender, the soap batter is not going to cool a great deal, and you almost never have to add extra heat.

If you take the stick blender away and go to all hand stirring, the time to trace is often much longer. During that time, little or no heat is being created by saponification, so your batter is going to cool from the stirring and from being in room temperature air. This temperature drop can be large enough to slow down saponification enough so if you stop stirring, the mixture will never come to trace or it will only partially saponify. So extra heat may be needed to force the saponification reaction to go faster so you don't have to spend hours upon hours of stirring.

Just a comment -- It is not that important to have the fats and lye near each other in temperature when you first put them together. I know many soap making tutorials and books call for this, but I think this rule-of-thumb may have evolved to new soapers out of trouble (false trace, too-fast saponification, etc.). But once a person has made soap for awhile and has a clue about making soap, this rule-of-thumb is not particularly useful. Kind of like the rule of thumb to only use a sassafras stick to stir soap, or to only stir clockwise, or only make soap in a certain phase of the moon, etc.


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## ngian (Jan 1, 2016)

If you use the heat transfer method that Craig mentioned, use only the spatula until all the hard oils are fully melted by the hot lye solution and then start using the stick blender to reach trace.


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## DeeAnna (Jan 1, 2016)

Just a caution -- The heat transfer method might work for this person's recipe or it might not. That's a lot of solid fat (65%) to melt with just the hot lye. 

I often can't use the heat transfer method with my high-lard recipes, especially when my house is cool. To get my fats entirely melted, I have to add some extra heat. I don't want to be warming my liquid oils enough to get the lard melted while my lye is already communing with fats in my soap pot. Not a good place to be!

I've learned to warm the solid fats until they're pretty soft if not fully melted, stick blend my liquid oils into the solid fats until the mixture has no lumps, and then I use the hot lye to melt them the rest of the way.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 1, 2016)

^^^ this is a great cautionary point that I missed out - not all recipes work well with it. Anything with a lot of something with a high melting point can cause issues


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## DeeAnna (Jan 1, 2016)

You're right on target, Craig. It seems like the heat-transfer method is a no-brainer idea. Problem is the hot lye has to do two things -- warm the solid fat to its melting temperature AND cause the solid fat to change from a solid to a liquid. The phase change (solid -> liquid) uses up a lot more energy than you might expect. The hot lye has to supply enough energy to do both tasks, and that doesn't always happen even if the lye is smokin' hot.


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## lenarenee (Jan 1, 2016)

In regards to your wife experiencing dryness: when the amounts of coconut oil and palm kernel oil are reduced that should help a lot. 

Do you have a thermometer for the oils? If not, then my personal rule of thumb is to soap while the oils are still clear instead of foggy (as in starting to solidify again).  I can comfortably hold my bare hand on the lye container and the pot of melted oils without needing to remove it. My recipes are usually also very high in hard oils and in 2 years have never had false trace, and never use a thermometer.


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## cmzaha (Jan 1, 2016)

I also do not find that heat transfer works to melt high amount of solid oils.


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## IrishLass (Jan 1, 2016)

Oldsoaper said:
			
		

> IrishLass, she has complained lately that it is drying her skin too much and is causing her eczema to come back.


 
In that case, I think I would go with Susie's recipe that she posted on page 2 of this thread:

Coconut Oil 10%
Palm Kernel Oil 5%
Mango Butter 10%
Olive Oil 25%
Lard 50%


IrishLass


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## Susie (Jan 1, 2016)

Also, use at least 5% superfat.  8% would probably be better.

I use the heat transfer method only in the summer when the house is right at or above 76 degrees, otherwise, I melt my solid oils completely, add the liquid oils (and EOs) and then add my hot lye water to that.  I don't mind fast trace, as I don't do any fancy swirls, or use any accelerating scents.  So it actually helps me if trace is faster.  

However, a couple of words of caution when learning to use a stick blender-don't continuously stick blend.  Use 15-20 second bursts and alternate with hand stirring an equal amount of time.  This will save the motor of your stick blender from burning out.  Also be sure you keep the entire head of the stick blender submerged.  This will save you not only from splattering raw soap all over you and everything else in the room, it will keep you from having lots of air bubbles in your soap.  Goggles, gloves, and long sleeves are mandatory if you aren't already using them.


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## Oldsoaper (Jan 10, 2016)

I made a new batch today using a stick blender.  It worked great.  The recipe I used was:

Coconut 10%
Lard 50%
Mango Butter 10%
Olive 25%
Palm Kernal 5%

I used the blender for twenty seconds and then stirred for twenty.  I repeated this and within a few minutes I had a trace unlike any I had seen before.  I think you were all correct in that I was seeing a false trace but did not know any better.  I also made sure I kept the temp up on the batter which I have not done in the past.

The batter looked like pudding and I was thrilled.  I think this will be the first real batch of soap I have made.

Thanks to everyone, your posts really helped.


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## traderbren (Jan 10, 2016)

I'm excited to hear how it turns out. Please be sure to let us know when you cut and share pics!


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## Serene (Jan 10, 2016)

Congratulations, Oldsoaper!  That is fantastic news.  Please keep us posted.


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## Seawolfe (Jan 10, 2016)

Yay!! Post pics of the soap!


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## Steve85569 (Jan 10, 2016)

Oldsoaper said:


> I made a new batch today using a stick blender.  It worked great.  The recipe I used was:
> 
> Coconut 10%
> Lard 50%
> ...



And another one has the addiction!
Welcome to the forum and remember. Without pictures it never happened.:mrgreen:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 11, 2016)

^^^ this. Especially pictures of your soap nicely cut in to bars. That is like catnip for soapers


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## penelopejane (Jan 11, 2016)

I am so pleased you discovered the solution to your problem. Making soap is wonderful when it turns out well.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 11, 2016)

Congratulations, I'm glad it finally worked out for you.


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## Oldsoaper (Jan 11, 2016)

I actually cut the soap at about 2:00pm EST.  My wife had me seal it up in large tub because of the raw soap odors bothered her.  I am going to make another small batch on Wednesday and cut on Thursday.  I will take pictures of both then since I will be letting them age in the same tub.  I think it looks great but you can decide for yourselves on Thursday.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 11, 2016)

Oldsoaper said:


> I actually cut the soap at about 2:00pm EST.  My wife had me seal it up in large tub because of the raw soap odors bothered her.  I am going to make another small batch on Wednesday and cut on Thursday.  I will take pictures of both then since I will be letting them age in the same tub.  I think it looks great but you can decide for yourselves on Thursday.




Just be sure the soaps get good air circulation during cure.


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## Obsidian (Jan 11, 2016)

Soap needs air to cure properly, do you have some place you can store it uncovered?


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## Susie (Jan 12, 2016)

Yeah, get that soap uncovered in a room with the door closed, but with a fan on it, pronto!  Without good air circulation, you are going to get DOS, and never get cure.  The soap smell will fade within a couple of hours, I promise.


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## Oldsoaper (Jan 12, 2016)

Later last night after I had posted my wife said to soap had to go to the garage.  I put it in a closet in the garage where I uncovered it.  The problem is that it can get cold there.  It won't freeze but the temps can get down into the mid to upper 30's.  Is that going to be a problem?


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## dixiedragon (Jan 12, 2016)

Oldsoaper said:


> Later last night after I had posted my wife said to soap had to go to the garage. I put it in a closet in the garage where I uncovered it. The problem is that it can get cold there. It won't freeze but the temps can get down into the mid to upper 30's. Is that going to be a problem?


 
IMO, it's not going to ruin your soap, but it's not doing it any favors either. Soap curing is a chemical process; stuff is going on and being cold slows down that stuff. Ideally, soap is cured in a place with some kind of climate control (heat or air conditioning) b/c that pulls some of the moisture out of the air. Maybe leave it out there for a few days until the smell fades and bring it in? I'm kind of stumped on the smell thing; to my nose soap only has a very slight scent, and that's when I hold the bar up to my nose.


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## Obsidian (Jan 12, 2016)

The cold can really limit how well/fast it cures. I'm also stumped about the smell, I have a sensitive nose and fresh soap doesn't smell to me unless I stick it right under my nose. Can you describe the scent your wife is smelling?


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## Susie (Jan 12, 2016)

At least get the door to the closet opened.  Air flow is necessary.  I agree with the others about the smell, though.  If you did not add scent, you should not be able to smell it over 3 feet away.


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## lenarenee (Jan 12, 2016)

Where did you previously set your soap to cure? 

To protect your wife, you may just have to leave it in the garage for a while; you can check it every few days to see if she can then tolerate it. If it means the soap cures more slowly, then so be it. But when she is able - it is best to have the soap cure in a well ventilated area.


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## Oldsoaper (Jan 12, 2016)

[FONT=&quot]My wife suffers from Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS).  People with her condition typically have damaged immune systems and have adverse reactions to chemicals that outgas from fragrances, new products (especially from China), the chemical reaction of soap curing, and the list goes on and on.  There does not have to be a strong odor, just enough chemical in the air to hit their immune system.  Remember the boy in the plastic bubble, that’s kind of the way these people have to live.  So something airborne that is not noticeable to the normal person can be debilitating to them.[/FONT]
In the past we made the soap in the spring or fall and let cure in the garage.


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## Obsidian (Jan 12, 2016)

Thats understandable then, leave it in the garage as long as needed. I would bring it in once it gets to the point your wife isn't bothered by it.


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## Susie (Jan 12, 2016)

As long as it gets good air flow and is not frozen over a long period of time, it should be OK.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Jan 13, 2016)

Temperature swings that could cause condensation would be my biggest worry, but if you're facing a longer period with stable temperatures it should be alright


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## dillsandwitch (Jan 13, 2016)

Im a bit late to the party but I wanted to congratulate you on a successful batch and to many more in the future


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## Oldsoaper (Jan 14, 2016)

*Pictures*

Here are pictures of bars from the two batches of soap made since I have gotten help from those who have posted.  The lighter soap was from the first batch.  I used coffee with the lye instead of water to darken the second batch so I could easily tell them apart.  I am really happy with the way they turned out.


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## traderbren (Jan 14, 2016)

They look really nice!


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## Susie (Jan 14, 2016)

Yep, congratulations!


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## penelopejane (Jan 16, 2016)

Lovely looking soap! How wonderful for you and your wife that you could get the help you needed from the people on the forum.  Sometimes it's the tiniest thing that makes a difference.


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## MySoapyHeart (Jan 16, 2016)

Lovely soaps, I am sure they will turn out great 
Your wife is really lucky to have such a handy and considerate husband that can help her out.


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