# How much to bring/make?



## BeeMaiden

I've got 3 shows coming up this fall within 2 weeks of each other so I am preparing now. I am concerned though that I might not have adaquate supply for 3 shows back to back. I have aprox 250-300 bars in stock right now of 13 different scents (with plans for 2 Christmas soaps) these shows aren't huge, but I felt like my soap was selling really well considering the woeful lack of foot traffic at my farmers market.
 How much do y'all usually bring to a fair/festival?
I will also have beeswax lotion and lip balm and honey scrubs.


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## navigator9

The answer to this question is always....."as much as you can". It's always better to bring too much, than to be selling really well and run out. If you've never done these shows before, it's hard to predict how they'll go. Even if you have done them, it's hard to predict. So it's better to have to cart some home, than to be kicking yourself for not having enough. I always try to bring at least 200 bars, plus gift sets, and specialty soaps, individual molds, etc. Keep extra stock under your table, and refill as you run out. I hope you sell them all!!!


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## BeeMaiden

I was planning to take my entire stock, but my query was more of, should I make more because I am concerned  about selling out at one and then not having enough inventory for the next - which would actually be awesome, but I have to pay the fees in advance.


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## galaxyMLP

If you are worried about it, I would make more if you have the time. Its not like soap goes "bad" as long as its not a recipe that goes rancid. Worse case, if the scent is no longer in season, you can sell it at a discount. Thats just my thought!


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## Susie

If in doubt, make more.


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## Relle

Are you new to soaping ? Just wondering - from your original post when you joined.

Hello from Georgia 

Hi, I'm BeeMaiden from Georgia. I've been making soap since March. It's awesome


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## cmzaha

Relle said:


> Are you new to soaping ? Just wondering - from your original post when you joined.
> 
> Hello from Georgia
> 
> Hi, I'm BeeMaiden from Georgia. I've been making soap since March. It's awesome


Wonderful....just enough time for a good cure


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## Susie

Waiting for it...


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## not_ally

I'm too tired to get into it.  I'll just say what we are all thinking though:  it seems like it is too soon to sell your soap unless there is something we are missing.


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## spenny92

It's a little tiring seeing threads turn from a genuine question to a selling-too-early lecture. She's made hundreds of bars and has been doing a farmer's market - the fact that she's a member of this forum is hopefully testament to the fact that she knows to test her soap and only sell them fully cured.

I don't want to start a war about this, as happens all too often on here, but it's not like she's asking what gel looks like when she's making soaps for a craft show.

BeeMaiden, I think the general consensus is to bring as much as you can make and take with you. Better to have some leftover than to sell out! Good luck.


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## not_ally

Spenny, I disagree with you on this one. That is all.


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## Spice

yeah take as much as you can, it's better to have more than not enough.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

spenny92 said:


> It's a little tiring seeing threads turn from a genuine question to a selling-too-early lecture. She's made hundreds of bars and has been doing a farmer's market - the fact that she's a member of this forum is hopefully testament to the fact that she knows to test her soap and only sell them fully cured.
> 
> I don't want to start a war about this, as happens all too often on here, but it's not like she's asking what gel looks like when she's making soaps for a craft show........




That's all well and good, but if she started in March then she hasn't been able to test these batches very much at all. 

You might find it tiring (I think mainly as you were someone in the same boat) but that doesn't mean to say that people shouldn't give the best advice as they see it based on their experiences. There was another soaper recently who had thought about rushing in to selling but then realized that there is much more too it and that they will just make soap for a while and see how it goes. Things posted on a forum are rarely just for the person in question, or it would be pm-based.


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## cmzaha

Also what some do not think about, you may think your new soap is awesome but customers may not. Takes time to tell a good soap from a less than good soap. The markets in my area have a big influx of new soapers thinking they are going to make quick and easy money and I am getting comments from people saying they would never use handmade soap again, because they bought a bar that did not last, was to harsh, to much soap scum... It can really kill sales when someone gets a not so great soap. One can make a thousand bad bars if the recipe is not good. So Spenny some of us will continue to reiterate it is bad to sell to soon. I guarantee my first year of soaps were not even close to what I make now. Which is why I have made 5 years in my market and outlast the competition. 
Back to the original question, take as much as you can. No one can predict not knowing the area you live in or the customer base. I will say a selection of 13 bars is very little. I take 40-50 different bars just to my weekly markets, as does another forum member who sells regularly at markets


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## Susie

Lest you think that everyone says that to limit the competition, bad soap affects everyone.  My (ex) MIL and FIL won't use my soap because they bought a bar that was not properly cured and it was harsh, drying, and melted too fast.  I mean they won't even try my soap.  Makes me sad.  Bad soap on the market affects everyone.


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## spenny92

I know that everyone advises not to sell for x amount of time, and I understand the reasons behind that and agree to some extent. I just feel that if someone is already selling, that advice would be redundant to them - especially if they are doing well, as the original poster seems to be from doing farmer's markets etc. I'm sure they are aware of the reasons why they're advised not to sell too soon, especially if they've read even just a handful of posts related to that on this forum.

TEG, I don't think that experience or advice was necessary on this particular topic, that's all. Perhaps if the question had been that she was thinking of selling, then the advice would be warranted and appreciated - but she's already selling and the question was purely about how much stock she should consider taking to a show. There are plenty of other relevant threads where that advice would be very, very useful - and I'm sure it helps a lot of people.

I just don't think it was necessary to flog that horse on this particular post - had she asked another question about something which someone who is selling should know (ie, what does trace look like?) then that would be a different story.

Like I said, not out to argue - just a difference in opinion. 

EDIT: I'm not sure why anyone is assuming that OP's soap is not fully cured or is "bad" soap. For all we know, she has used the same recipe since March.
I know that bad soap affects the entire soap market, but I think it's a little unfair to tar this person with that brush. Again, perhaps a conversation for another, more relevant thread.


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## navigator9

It's really hard to take a stand against selling too early without sounding like a cranky know it all. I think that those of us who do, (myself included) are just trying to look out for all of us handmade soapmakers. The problem is, when you're a beginning soapmaker, *you don't know all the things you don't know*. You may have been making soap for a while, and it's good soap, and your friends and family like it, but soapmaking is one of those skills that never really reaches a peak. You can have made soap for years and years, but you still learn something new with almost every batch. So by waiting a little while to start selling, you're not going to lose out on a fortune's worth of money, and your product will be just that much better. I've pretty much stopped posting about not selling too early, because it's just not something that newbies want to hear, but I feel like I had to support my fellow soapmakers who share this opinion, whether it's welcome or not.

I don't think anyone meant to flog a dead horse, lecture anyone, or assume that the OP's soap was not fully cured or bad, just a general feeling that there are lots of newbies who jump the gun, and would be better off to wait, that's all.


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## IrishLass

Well said, Navigator! My sentiments exactly, especially this part: 





			
				Navigator9 said:
			
		

> The problem is, when you're a beginning soapmaker, *you don't know all the things you don't know*.


 That cannot be emphasized enough.


IrishLass


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## Susie

navigator9 said:


> The problem is, when you're a beginning soapmaker, *you don't know all the things you don't know*.



^ This. Exactly.


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## not_ally

After 8 mo's/100+ batches, I still don't know what I don't know.  I don't ever expect to, completely, but I would want to get a lot closer if I was selling.  

I threw out almost all of my first 30 or 40 batches - hundreds of bars - after the first few months b/c I realized how hard the water was in my area, and I didn't even want to *give* those bars to people and have them deal w/the soap scum.  They were pretty enough, and actually felt good, I just couldn't square up the idea of my giftees having to deal w/all the scum.  

I have been working with the same basic formula for about 6 mos, and it is not a tricky one, mostly lard, a bit of CO/OO/castor, plus some other things that work for me, I am not being cryptic, just don't want to type it all out and talk about why I think they work.  After that amount of time w/the same formula I am not really afraid that it is going to create problems for the people I give them to.  

But colors?  No idea how they will end up in several months, I use lots of them.  FO's?  *Really* no idea, I have so many, and have tested so many, they are extremely variable.  If I was spending $5 on a bar of soap because of the scent, took it home and it was gone in a month or two, I would be sad. 

There are just a lot of things that could change over time.


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## BeeMaiden

Oh goodness gracious! I didn't mean to start an argument  
Yes, I have only been soaping since March, but I take this very seriously - I properly superfat my soaps, let them cure a full 6 weeks+, only use distilled water, you get the idea. I have done a ton of research and feel that I know what I am doing, and am perfectly confident in my product's quality. Everyone who has tried it absolutely loves it. This includes people i have given free bars to in exchange for their honest opinion and also customers I have sold to. People don't seek you out all the way from Illinois to buy your stuff unless they really liked the little sliver sample they were given. 
But that being said, I am really just curious how much product other soapers bring to small festivals and the like. Since I am planning on doing three in a row I need to plan now so I have enough. 
I really want to limit my product line - I don't feel that my customers need 50 different choices of soap. I started with 8 different kinds and am working my way up to 15, with two that will swap out depending on the season (x-mas, spring, summer, fall, etc.)


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## not_ally

Well, Ok.  Carolyn - probably one of the most experienced sellers on the board - has offered her opinion, but maybe your market is really different.  I have typed and edited this response a few times, and it is not coming out right, so am giving up.  I do not wish bad things for you though.


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## BeeMaiden

I'm not offended  I like to hear everyone's opinions - and lots of advice is a lovely thing. I wouldn't have joined if I wasn't interested in other people's thoughts.  I'm not quite sure how my question got turned into a debate of whether I should sell or not, but that's ok. 
So, I'm thinking two batches of each kind in stock, ready to go. A batch is 5 lbs which equals 14-15 bars.


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## Dorymae

As for how much to bring. Start making soap, when you no longer have anywhere to cure it and your dining room table can not be used for eating or 6 weeks before your first event stop. You can now start making your labels and signs, but don't label that soap for at least 4 weeks. 

This is the meaning of " as much as you can".


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## BeeMaiden

Got it! Problem is we don't have a dining room table


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## not_ally

Bee, I think my thoughts about selling early are obvious.  But it could be that you are lucky, you are preternaturally good for a newbie, and you will have a great future.  I actually hope you do.  What I would do w/r/t to your initial query is to try and get as much helpful information as you can from people who sell in venues/areas that are similar to yours.  If not, successful sellers generally.  

The reason I brought Carolyn up is that she has been working this business hard and successfully, so if she suggests taking more rather than less soaps, I think it is worth considering, unless you have space issues that really would eliminate that possibility.  It does seem like taking more rather than less - if you can (even it it is a pain) could not be a bad thing.


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## kumudini

At first look, your replies look amazingly positive. But the debate here is not particularly about you. It's more about how much practical knowledge the new soapers gain in a short period of time to be able to sell a bar of soap and be sure that it will live up to the customers expectations and guarantee their satisfaction. Every batch of soap is different, mistakes are so common when you are trying something new and haven't fully evolved in the skill yet. Even highly experienced soapers talk about occasional fails here. But they are experienced enough to recognize it before it's too late. That's why the most experienced and super helpful people here try to advice against selling too early, and from the looks of it you started selling after mere months into your soaping journey. Handmade soap probably sounds so good that everyone wants it and most mediocre handmade soaps are likely better than the big brand name cleansing bars. As soon as I made my first ever batch of soap, my friend wanted it, so..


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## cmzaha

You may not want to take a large selection and that is fine, just hope there is not another soapmaker selling in your holiday markets that have a large selection. Granted here soapmakers come out of the woodwork especially during the holidays. The booth with a large selection will always do better than the booth with a dozen different soaps. I see this all the time. 
Even experienced soapmakers make boo boos. I actually sent out a bar of soap I had not tested about a year ago to a good return online customer. I tried the soap and was appalled how bad it was, and immediately emailed the customer apologizing profusely and told her to throw it away. She had already dumped and wondered what had happened since she had never received a bad bar before. The soap was not zappy just awful and I was never able to figure out the issue with it. My customer received two bars as replacement that she loved and I told her to always let us know of a problem. So yep issues happen, I always zap test batches but had not tried it on my face. If this had been a new customer that did not know our products we would have lost her as a customer. I made one tonight and if I had not caught the error it would have made a poor batch of soap, at least by my standards. Had to sit done rethink what I had done and redid the batch of oils, to come up with the properties I originally wanted. I doubled up on a soft oil and had to re-balance it.


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## Relle

BeeMaiden said:


> I'm not offended  I like to hear everyone's opinions - and lots of advice is a lovely thing. I wouldn't have joined if I wasn't interested in other people's thoughts.  I'm not quite sure how my question got turned into a debate of whether I should sell or not, but that's ok.
> So, I'm thinking two batches of each kind in stock, ready to go. A batch is 5 lbs which equals 14-15 bars.



If you are already selling, you should know how much product to take to a show - that comes with time and experience, I think that's why people get annoyed about giving their opinions to a newbie selling. Everyone gives their information freely, but it seems you haven't read their posts, why should they give their knowledge about such things when you don't listen. 

As you have been only soaping for 6 months and selling within that time frame, you aren't able to tell me how your soaps are going to hold up after 12 months. Also what if I came to you and said - your soap burnt my skin, can you tell me why?

I think it got turned into a debate about whether you should be selling or not because we try to educate newbies here that selling to early is not a good idea, even though you have done a ton of research, everybody loves your soaps, given away free bars for their opinions etc. 

We have all done that and I THOUGHT, remember THOUGHT my first ones were fantastic, so did people I gave them to, but when I look back and that was many moons ago, they weren't  and a lot here will tell you the same.
I'm with not_ally - I still don't know what I don't know and that will always be the case as far as I'm concerned.

Here is the Should I be selling thread if you want to read it ?

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=16002


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## Relle

spenny92 said:


> I know that everyone advises not to sell for x amount of time, and I understand the reasons behind that and agree to some extent. I just feel that if someone is already selling, that advice would be redundant to them - especially if they are doing well, as the original poster seems to be from doing farmer's markets etc. I'm sure they are aware of the reasons why they're advised not to sell too soon, especially if they've read even just a handful of posts related to that on this forum.
> 
> TEG, I don't think that experience or advice was necessary on this particular topic, that's all. Perhaps if the question had been that she was thinking of selling, then the advice would be warranted and appreciated - but she's already selling and the question was purely about how much stock she should consider taking to a show. There are plenty of other relevant threads where that advice would be very, very useful - and I'm sure it helps a lot of people.
> 
> I just don't think it was necessary to flog that horse on this particular post - had she asked another question about something which someone who is selling should know (ie, what does trace look like?) then that would be a different story.
> 
> Like I said, not out to argue - just a difference in opinion.
> 
> EDIT: I'm not sure why anyone is assuming that OP's soap is not fully cured or is "bad" soap. For all we know, she has used the same recipe since March.
> I know that bad soap affects the entire soap market, but I think it's a little unfair to tar this person with that brush. Again, perhaps a conversation for another, more relevant thread.



If the experience of selling was there, she would have known how much stock to take to a show and yes it is necessary to flog that horse as you put it, as newbies keep turning up saying they are selling, it has been going on for sometime and it will keep going and WE will keep telling them.

The forum is for educating about soaping in ALL aspects, we will keep moderating the posts and this was a relevant thread. Newbies join here daily and when this subject comes up again and it will, the conversation starts all over.

Also doing a search would have answered all the questions the OP wanted to know.
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=42965


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## BeeMaiden

Relle said:


> If you are already selling, you should know how much product to take to a show - that comes with time and experience, I think that's why people get annoyed about giving their opinions to a newbie selling. Everyone gives their information freely, but it seems you haven't read their posts, why should they give their knowledge about such things when you don't listen.
> 
> As you have been only soaping for 6 months and selling within that time frame, you aren't able to tell me how your soaps are going to hold up after 12 months. Also what if I came to you and said - your soap burnt my skin, can you tell me why?
> 
> I think it got turned into a debate about whether you should be selling or not because we try to educate newbies here that selling to early is not a good idea, even though you have done a ton of research, everybody loves your soaps, given away free bars for their opinions etc.
> 
> We have all done that and I THOUGHT, remember THOUGHT my first ones were fantastic, so did people I gave them to, but when I look back and that was many moons ago, they weren't  and a lot here will tell you the same.
> I'm with not_ally - I still don't know what I don't know and that will always be the case as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> Here is the Should I be selling thread if you want to read it ?
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=16002


So what did you do when you went to your first show? Everyone needs to start somewhere. 
I've done farmers markets, but I suspect that a small festival is going to have much better sales. 
It sounds like you want me to lay down the $1K+ I have invested in this and walk away because my soap "might" be inferior - when you have no idea on way or the other.
If I had said that I had been soaping for 3 years, but in truth had only made 5 batches in that entire time would that had made me credible in your eyes? Sure, it's only been since the beginning of this year, but I have made over 30 batches of soap and yes, I know how to recognize problems - i have studied this stuff extensively. I would say that 30 batches in 6 months is far greater experience than 5 batches in 3 years.
There have been several who didn't make the cut and they are in a box even now. They will never see a customer. I also test every batch, yes every batch on myself and family. If, as you say, even you make an occasional mistake, then many years of experience may or may not help. Sometimes newer people are less prone to make mistakes because they are more careful. 
Also, it sounds like y'all are assuming that I have formulated all my recipes from scratch. I haven't. All my recipes have come from reputable makers (and sellers) of soap. If I thought it would do any good, I would send you a bar to critique, but I don't feel that would do any good.
I appreciate all of your concern, but I feel that if you were really concerned, you would have asked me questions regarding it instead of assuming the worse.
Usually forums like this are helpful and encouraging, but this one seems overly critical. IE, you could have asked me and double checked your facts, asked me what type of soap I am making, what makes it special, how long is my cure time, what oils do I use, and then maybe kindly doled out advice. 
I'm not upset with you  (yet


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## Susie

Quite often we say things that we know the OP knows already(or should).  It is because we know that someone who is so new to the forum that they DON'T know or CAN'T know is reading it.  It may seem like flogging a dead horse to some, but it may save someone from making an error that could damage either their reputation or someone's skin.

If you will look through the forum, you will see many instances of this.  Whenever anyone very new is asking questions, someone is going to mention gloves and goggles, someone else is going to mention not using vinegar to clean lye splashes on skin, someone is going to mention having a good scale, etc.  Should the OP have done their proper research and know this already?  Yes.  Are there going to be even newer people doing research by reading that?  Absolutely.  We are not necessarily trying to educate the OP.  We are trying to educate the ones researching.

Yes, saying that the OP should not be selling right now is rather like closing the barn door after the horses got out.  But it may save that person who is hearing that they should sell their soap when they gave some of their first batch out to friends and family from making a mistake that could get them sued.

ETA-I was typing the same time as the OP.  

*"Also, it sounds like y'all are assuming that I have formulated all my recipes from scratch. I haven't. All my recipes have come from reputable makers (and sellers) of soap. "*

You *should* have been using your own recipes.  You just took the results of someone's hard trial and error process that probably took them over a year to perfect and trotted it out as your own work.

Think of this another way: If you wrote music, and you sent a demo tape out to someone to see if they wanted to perform it, then they put it onto an album without paying you or even acknowledging that you wrote it, how do you think you would feel?  What would you do about it?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

^^ this is also why I think people should wait before selling - if you don't know how to formulate your own recipes, do you know why soaps do what they do? 

If not, how do you respond to questions about soaps? 

If you do know, why don't you formulate your own recipes? Having tested the book ones against the ones that you tweak to see how they all work?


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## BeeMaiden

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> ^^ this is also why I think people should wait before selling - if you don't know how to formulate your own recipes, do you know why soaps do what they do?
> 
> If not, how do you respond to questions about soaps?
> 
> If you do know, why don't you formulate your own recipes? Having tested the book ones against the ones that you tweak to see how they all work?



I understand what they do, each job the oil does, but my originals did come from other soapmakers. I do tweak stuff (and run it through a lye Calc after) but yes, I started with a "book soap" - internet really, but you know what I mean. Your logic is like saying, "why on earth would you use someone else's bread recipe - isn't that like passing someone else's hard work off as your own? Certainly you should start with flour, water and yeast and then tweak it to suit your tastes!" <Dosen't make sense. If they didn't want people to make their soap, why did they post it on the internet and no, I have been the one to spend the time and money on making it and studying how everything works so I feel that it is indeed my own hard work that i am pasing off as my own. 
I've also make different sorts (it's not all one recipe for everything and I've settled on my favorite - a blend of Olive oil (for moisture - its very gentle on the skin, its pH is similar to that of our skin, lacks lots of lather and tends to make a soft bar when by itself), Coconut oil (for lather and to add hardness to the bar - it tends to be drying by itself but is awesome because it will lather in salt water), Palm oil (the vegetable equivalent of tallow, gentle, adds hardness  and is the sole fat in traditional african black soap) Avocado oil (also moisturizing, high in vitamins A&E) and Shea butter (which tends to not saponify as easily as the others so it usually ends up as the main superfat that is left in the bar). My result is a hard long-lasting bar that lathers really well (especially if you use a pouf), and is moisturizing - but not overly so. Part of the reason I started making my own is that I wasn't happy with the stuff I was buying from other people, it went away too quickly and seemed rather drying.  I don't use animal fats in my soap - I don't feel that it is as good for the skin and if I am going to make it, I am going to make the best.
If I felt it would exonerate me, I would send you all some to show, that yes, I do know what I am doing.


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## not_ally

Actually, it seems OK to me to use other people's recipes as long as it is OK w/them, ie; they are published, and there is no other element of claiming that you created the recipe somehow.  I am describing this badly, but you know what I mean.  Also, I think it is likely that you do know what you are doing, to the extent that you can make soap that is decent and much, much better than the syndet bars people are used to buying.  I don't think that is what people are really addressing.  Pretty much all of us did that fairly early on the soap making journey.

It is just that I think - and the other posters here do as well - that it takes a long time before you can really be sure you are selling a product that is close to as good as it can be.  Some of that is subjective, ie; there is no magic date a year out where you will say "Eureka, I'm there!"  So I understand why you feel like it is good enough now, more time will not help, and it is frustrating to be told over and over that it does.  But it does.  You probably made a batch almost right away that was good enough to use/gift, right?  But probably it was not as good as the ones you are making now.  The timing is just an expanded version of that, and it is more important b/c you are selling.

You are taking a pretty good pounding here without losing your temper, but I don't think you are going to change our minds, and it seems unlikely we will change yours, so it might be best to just to glean this thread and others for suggestions about your OP, and also to search the board a bit more.  You may already be using this, but I use sitecomber, this link is set up for searching smf:  http://sitecomber.com/search.php?domains=www.sitecomber.com&client=pub-1307489338039489&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23FFFFFF%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A150567%3BALC%3A000000%3BLC%3A000000%3BT%3A0000FF%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BLH%3A0%3BLW%3A0%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fsitecomber.com%2Flogo-490x90.jpg%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sitecomber.com%3BFORID%3A11&hl=en&channel=5823071447&q=&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soapmakingforum.com&sa=Search&safe=active

ETA:  Also, as I understand it, if you are doing CP there is no way to make sure shea is the main SF in your soap, you can't selectively SF w/CP.  Best not tell people that when selling, it really does constitute a misrepresentation.


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## cmzaha

As I mentioned above, the bad soap I sent out was NOT my recipe and was the only time I did not formulate my own. This was from a well known soap person in the industry who teaches and has been making soap many many years. Not Anne Marie, but in the industry almost if not as long. It never occurred her recipe would be anything but good. Do not trust someone else's recipes. Think Peacock Swirl girls, although it was not that recipe that was terrible.

BTW olive oil actually makes a very hard bar of soap and in my opinion I hate olive oil, always feels sticky even after a year cure. Animal fat makes the nicest moisturizing hard bar of soaps, leaving Vegans to not use the greatest soap possible. Lard is considered non-comedogenic, olive oil is not, but I use the work loosely since there are no real guidelines for what is and is not comedogenic, mainly some testing done on rabbit ears which was dropped


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## not_ally

This does not have to do w/the OP, but is there anyone on the board who did *not* have enthusiastic friends/family telling them they should sell their soap right away?  That seems to be pretty much universal.  It was funny, when they said that to me I was grateful for the compliments but immediately thought "but I am doing it because this is fun!  That would make it *not* fun


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## Susie

Yep, the first thing I heard from everyone is, "You should sell this!  You will get rich!"  And my reply to them was, "There are too many people making soap now, and no one is getting rich!"


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## green soap

BeeMaiden, here is what I do to figure if I have enough soap for a show or festival:

Take the booth fee, and make it 10% of your estimated sales.  This is what I can accept to pay, 10% for the booth.  Change that number to what is acceptable to you, it might be 15%, maybe 20%? up to you.  

Continuing with this example, let's say the organizers want $50 for a day for a booth space.  This means that for me (for what I consider an acceptable 'rent space' expense) I would have to sell $500 worth of soap that day.  So divide this by your average price of a soap plus tax - it gives you the minimum number of bars to take to an event.  At $5 a bar average (for example) you need to take 100 bars.  You might not sell all of them, but you sure cannot sell them if you do not bring them.  Also, no one sells out 100% and customers like choices, so I would double this to 200 bars.  Note this is scaled to a $50 a day event.  So for a $500 a booth 3-day event this would be from 1000 to 2000 bars of soap.

So continuing the example, you have 3 events close enough in time that you cannot make more soap in between?  Let's say they all want $50 a day a booth, then you need 300 bars of soap - assuming the average of $5 a bar.  Again, this is just an example for easy numbers, your event price and average price bar will most likely be different.  Also, you might be willing to pay a higher percentage in 'rent' or booth fees, 20%?  30%?  be careful though, you have many other costs to consider.  In actuality I paid 12% to my local market, and I was OK with that because of what was provided with that 12%.  

I have been 'invited' to festivals with much higher booth prices, and even though I might have done OK, I realized that I simply did not have 600 bars of soap available for that event, and I would have lost money, while still selling a lot of soap.  Also, breaking even is not good enough in these cases, your material and time are worth a lot.


----------



## IrishLass

BeeMaiden said:


> I've settled on my favorite - a blend of Olive oil (for moisture - its very gentle on the skin, its pH is similar to that of our skin, lacks lots of lather and tends to make a soft bar when by itself.


 
BeeMaiden, I am not trying to be mean and I hope you take this in the sprit that it is given, but I truly hope you are not using that as a selling point. The pH of our skin is acidic (on the average, below 5 pH, but can go as high as 7 pH....pretty much a range between 4 pH and 7 pH). Soap made with olive oil, even 100% olive oil with a high super-fat is no where near similar to the pH of human skin. It will always cure out on the alkaline side, because by definition, that's what soap is- an alkaline salt of a fatty acid. The pH of well-made, safe-to-use lye-based soap will range anywhere from 8 at the lowest to 11.5.

Also, a 100% olive oil soap will actually cure out rock hard after 6 months to a year (one of the things that SoapCalc does not take into consideration in it's olive oil calculations..... and also on the list of reasons why many of the experienced among us advise against selling before a period of a year of consistently successful soap-making has gone by). 

The thing with lye-based soap is that it's not static- in other words, once made and cured, it's not frozen in time- it still goes through changes over a period of a year, sometimes greatly so depending on several different factors that we may not even have considered. Those among us that have been making soap for a long time and have witnessed those changes time and again are truly not out to be tiresome, dead horse-beaters when they advise against selling too soon. They care passionately about the craft and they want other people to be successful, because when they are successful, it reflects positively on the craft as a whole.

It's almost the same kind of thing when our parents nagged at us to brush/take care of our teeth when we were younger. Being older and having seen what poor dental hygiene can do over time, they tried to steer us, out of love, away from having the same kind of dental problems down the road that they themselves had. Usually, we as kids thought they were just being tiresome nags and wished they would just get off our backs, but then sometime down the road we realized they were actually right and that they probably should have nagged us more. 


IrishLass


----------



## Cindy2428

Bee, as others have stated this goes beyond how many bars to take to a show for a new soaper. If you have read threads from European and Canadian soapers, then you realize the hoops these folks have to go through to operate a bath & body products business. 

I don't want big government in my life. It's intrusive enough as it is. There are bills out there all the time sponsored by "Big Soap" trying to get most artisan soap off the market. All it would take would be for a Congressperson's kid to have a skin issue; be sold zappy soap and have a large campaign contribution thrown in and we could all be facing regulations that no one wants. As soon as they pass one law, they set a precedent for more down the road. I have no doubt that it's going to happen; it's just a matter of time before we have to have certification/licenses for each recipe we make and sell, and I guarantee you that it will be from someone who sold an inferior bar of soap.

The "1 year rule/guideline"? - For me, not so much. I've attended classes, workshops with people who live, eat breathe their soap as newbies. As long as they present their products legally; have tested their products thoroughly,  then God bless - go for it! 

July this year marked my 3rd anniversary of handmade bath & body products. Year 1 - I was exploring/researching something fun to do when I retired. Year 2 was actually making soap, finding this forum, investing a lot of money in deciding whether this was just going to be an expensive hobby or possibly a business. By the end of year 2, I was making a pros/cons list of starting a business, and writing out a business plan. 

My health had begun to deteriorate and I didn't know if I physically had what it took to be chief cook, bottle washer and seller again. I barely could make it through Guild sessions. Well, 2 major surgeries later and a very slow recovery period, I'm involved in a wholesaling class and getting excited again. If this is what you are burning to do, then don't let anything, anyone stop you. Just please put out the best, safest product you can. Cheers to your new business, Cindy.


----------



## BeeMaiden

not_ally said:


> Actually, it seems OK to me to use other people's recipes as long as it is OK w/them, ie; they are published, and there is no other element of claiming that you created the recipe somehow.  I am describing this badly, but you know what I mean.  Also, I think it is likely that you do know what you are doing, to the extent that you can make soap that is decent and much, much better than the syndet bars people are used to buying.  I don't think that is what people are really addressing.  Pretty much all of us did that fairly early on the soap making journey.
> 
> It is just that I think - and the other posters here do as well - that it takes a long time before you can really be sure you are selling a product that is close to as good as it can be.  Some of that is subjective, ie; there is no magic date a year out where you will say "Eureka, I'm there!"  So I understand why you feel like it is good enough now, more time will not help, and it is frustrating to be told over and over that it does.  But it does.  You probably made a batch almost right away that was good enough to use/gift, right?  But probably it was not as good as the ones you are making now.  The timing is just an expanded version of that, and it is more important b/c you are selling.
> 
> You are taking a pretty good pounding here without losing your temper, but I don't think you are going to change our minds, and it seems unlikely we will change yours, so it might be best to just to glean this thread and others for suggestions about your OP, and also to search the board a bit more.  You may already be using this, but I use sitecomber, this link is set up for searching smf:  http://sitecomber.com/search.php?domains=www.sitecomber.com&client=pub-1307489338039489&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23FFFFFF%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A150567%3BALC%3A000000%3BLC%3A000000%3BT%3A0000FF%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BLH%3A0%3BLW%3A0%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fsitecomber.com%2Flogo-490x90.jpg%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.sitecomber.com%3BFORID%3A11&hl=en&channel=5823071447&q=&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soapmakingforum.com&sa=Search&safe=active
> 
> ETA:  Also, as I understand it, if you are doing CP there is no way to make sure shea is the main SF in your soap, you can't selectively SF w/CP.  Best not tell people that when selling, it really does constitute a misrepresentation.



I appreciate your advice  And a little debate never hurt anyone. I was just feeling a little bugged regarding the perhaps just a tiny bit overly critical replies I recieved. I am here to learn, of course, but the causeless assumptions made about me and my soap make me feel less than welcome. You might note, for example, the ever-so-slightly sarcastic comment made earlier in this thread. It makes me wonder whether there might be a small amount of animosity regarding any new blood in the business, and this is more the root issue, than if my soaps caused someone's skin to fall off.
Seriously, if my customers are happy, why should that concern you? I just got an order tonight from a doctor because he tried my little sample and loved its moisturizing properties and wants to use it in his office.
Regarding the shea - no, I don't use that as a selling point. It's simply a tidbit of information i picked up in my research. But is it not true that shea has a higher unsaponifiable content and therefore it tends to be a goodly percentage of the SF? I simply mention the oils I use and that I superfat so that a tiny bit of that oil content is still in the bar when it is finished.



Cindy2428 said:


> Bee, as others have stated this goes beyond how many bars to take to a show for a new soaper. If you have read threads from European and Canadian soapers, then you realize the hoops these folks have to go through to operate a bath & body products business.
> 
> I don't want big government in my life. It's intrusive enough as it is. There are bills out there all the time sponsored by "Big Soap" trying to get most artisan soap off the market. All it would take would be for a Congressperson's kid to have a skin issue; be sold zappy soap and have a large campaign contribution thrown in and we could all be facing regulations that no one wants. As soon as they pass one law, they set a precedent for more down the road. I have no doubt that it's going to happen; it's just a matter of time before we have to have certification/licenses for each recipe we make and sell, and I guarantee you that it will be from someone who sold an inferior bar of soap.
> 
> The "1 year rule/guideline"? - For me, not so much. I've attended classes, workshops with people who live, eat breathe their soap as newbies. As long as they present their products legally; have tested their products thoroughly,  then God bless - go for it!
> 
> July this year marked my 3rd anniversary of handmade bath & body products. Year 1 - I was exploring/researching something fun to do when I retired. Year 2 was actually making soap, finding this forum, investing a lot of money in deciding whether this was just going to be an expensive hobby or possibly a business. By the end of year 2, I was making a pros/cons list of starting a business, and writing out a business plan.
> 
> My health had begun to deteriorate and I didn't know if I physically had what it took to be chief cook, bottle washer and seller again. I barely could make it through Guild sessions. Well, 2 major surgeries later and a very slow recovery period, I'm involved in a wholesaling class and getting excited again. If this is what you are burning to do, then don't let anything, anyone stop you. Just please put out the best, safest product you can. Cheers to your new business, Cindy.


Aww, thanks! I think your fears are ungrounded though - I do the lick test and also test them on myself before even thinking about selling them. I understand that there is plenty at stake including my own name and cottage industry as a whole. I appreciate your concern - and share it. I hope your business flourishes!



cmzaha said:


> As I mentioned above, the bad soap I sent out was NOT my recipe and was the only time I did not formulate my own. This was from a well known soap person in the industry who teaches and has been making soap many many years. Not Anne Marie, but in the industry almost if not as long. It never occurred her recipe would be anything but good. Do not trust someone else's recipes. Think Peacock Swirl girls, although it was not that recipe that was terrible.
> 
> BTW olive oil actually makes a very hard bar of soap and in my opinion I hate olive oil, always feels sticky even after a year cure. Animal fat makes the nicest moisturizing hard bar of soaps, leaving Vegans to not use the greatest soap possible. Lard is considered non-comedogenic, olive oil is not, but I use the work loosely since there are no real guidelines for what is and is not comedogenic, mainly some testing done on rabbit ears which was dropped


Sure, it's hard when it is dry after a 6 month cure, but start using it in the shower and you might find it not so hard after all. 
This is where I disagree. See, I would never buy your soap because it has animal fat in it. Our skin wasn't made to absorb animal fat. If I am going to bother to make the stuff, then I am going to make the best and lard seems like a cheapo way to make not-so-good soap. Vegetable oils are more expensive because they are higher quality and a more pure fat. I would take a fat from a plant anyday over a antibiotic-pumped fat raised in a factory farm. Just my 2cents.


----------



## not_ally

BeeMaiden said:


> Regarding the shea - no, I don't use that as a selling point. It's simply a tidbit of information i picked up in my research. But is it not true that shea has a higher unsaponifiable content and therefore it tends to be a goodly percentage of the SF? I simply mention the oils I use and that I superfat so that a tiny bit of that oil content is still in the bar when it is finished.



No, that seems to be something that is clear from much observation/testing, w/CP, ie; active lye, the general rule is that "the lye takes what it wants", and to hell with the soapmaker.  HP, different story.

You really are going to have a hard sell about animal fats being a cheapo/unnatural/lower quality form of soaping fat, though.  I have to say that my experience is 100% different (except for the fact that lard is cheap, which I love!).  Based on what I see here, lard might be the no. 1 oil of choice for most experienced soapers - for qualitative reasons - unless they are opposed to animal fats for vegan/vegetarian reasons, of course.  Have you ever used it?  I don't think you can really opine about it unless you have.  If you can't b/c of the vegan/veggie issue, it is a much smaller soaping world, and it is harder to make a great soap, IMO.


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## spenny92

Uh oh... Did someone just diss the lard? I'm off to hide! :shifty:


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## not_ally

I know, that is a scary thing 

I would say, it it is not a good idea to make a blanket statement about *anything* unless you have tried it yourself.  I break that rule myself w/oils that I have read lead to DOS, I will say "I have not tried "x" b/c I have heard it leads to DOS".  But it is kind of hard to try something when you already think it leads to DOS!


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## cmzaha

BeeMaiden said:


> Sure, it's hard when it is dry after a 6 month cure, but start using it in the shower and you might find it not so hard after all.
> This is where I disagree. See, I would never buy your soap because it has animal fat in it. Our skin wasn't made to absorb animal fat. If I am going to bother to make the stuff, then I am going to make the best and lard seems like a cheapo way to make not-so-good soap. Vegetable oils are more expensive because they are higher quality and a more pure fat. I would take a fat from a plant anyday over a antibiotic-pumped fat raised in a factory farm. Just my 2cents.


Do not judge what you have not tried, and I am not asking you to buy my soap. I also make vegan soap but they do not hold a candle to animal fat soap. And remember we started out as hunters gathers.  Every part of an animal was used, they fed us, fats were used as salves, kept of warm etc. Becuase lard is a by product of the food industry and is not as costly as veggie oils it does not mean it makes an inferior soap. Price of oil does NOT determine the quality of a bar of soap

Hard soap is not necessarily a great soap. Coconut oil makes wonderfully hard white soap the lathers in salt water because it is very soluble, so it does not last long. Palm oil makes a nice vegan soap, but in high percentage does not lather well and is waxy feeling. Olive Oil soap is very hard but is slimy and sticky even after a year cure. I never take out castile under a year cure. Lard and tallow make hard low soluble soap that is creamy and moisturizing. Best suggestion is to make 1 oil soaps and form your own opinions not what you read. I love Canola added to soap, but most shy away from it because of dos problems. I have a soap sitting in front of me that was made last September and not 1 spot of dos used at a rate of 20%, so do not believe all you read. Test Test Test

What is Tallow :???:


BeeMaiden said:


> Tallow soap sounds really interesting


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I saw it earlier (not using lard as animal fats are inferior and wanting to make the best soap) but thought I'd stop with the flogging as my point of view was clear. 

But with soap, a wash off product, very little of anything is absorbed. I would also add that oils and soap are totally different things.  A lard molecule and a sodium lardate molecule are not the same thing. 

Your soap is not moisturizing. It strips less oils than other soaps, maybe, but it is not moisturizing. 

To come full circle, these are things that I would want someone to know if I am buying soap from them. A load of blog-copy-and-paste about oil properties is one thing, but if you still have a lot to learn about cp soaps that you are selling, I find that an insult to your customers. You want to sell 'the best' soaps but not wait until YOU have the experience that would make you a good soaper. Making good soaps and being a good soaper are also not the same thing. 

As I do not sell yet and I doubt that you would go through the hoops to sell here in the EU, I certainly do not worry about competition. I just think that customers deserve quality, not just from the product but also from the company behind the product.

ETA I am being direct and purposefully 'unfluffy' as this is in the business section - if you want to be in business, you will hear things that you don't want to hear in ways that you don't want to hear it! As it is, you do very well with seeing it for how it is rather than getting in to an emotional wreck about it.


----------



## not_ally

To add to Carolyn's comment, I don't really understand why it is unnatural for our skin to use animal fats.  Ie; the idea of using soap in general, in a truly natural state, would never happen.  Without any research on the topic, I think our pregenitors would have just dunked themselves in river or sea water to get rid of the itchy stuff, who knows when/why they came up with the idea of burning wood to create ash for lye, adding oils etc.  It is hard for me to see why using animal oils, instead of vegetable ones, is less natural in that context.


----------



## Seawolfe

BeeMaiden said:


> This is where I disagree. See, I would never buy your soap because it has animal fat in it. Our skin wasn't made to absorb animal fat. If I am going to bother to make the stuff, then I am going to make the best and lard seems like a cheapo way to make not-so-good soap. Vegetable oils are more expensive because they are higher quality and a more pure fat. I would take a fat from a plant anyday over a antibiotic-pumped fat raised in a factory farm. Just my 2cents.



Hahahahaha NO.

Speaking as a biologist, our skins were absolutely made to appreciate animal fat precisely because because we ARE animals.  And unless you are using only essential oils, plant oils, water and LYE that you are absolutely sure are 100% untainted with anything industrial ever you really do not have a leg to stand on with that argument. Plant fats can sequester bad things right out of the air - where do you think pollution goes when they absorb it?


----------



## Relle




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## FerrisWheel

cmzaha said:


> I take 40-50 different bars just to my weekly markets, as does another forum member who sells regularly at markets



Just a quick question RE: cosmetic certification safety where you are...

Over here 40-50 bars of soap to get certified would cost an eye watering amount of money (approx £1500!!!)

What are the rules and regulations over there?  I have seen lots of people with tens of dozens of items for sale and often wonder how they can afford the certifications.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

In the U.S. of A there is no need for such things, which has pros and cons, of course

Eta, the total cost would depend on how different those soaps actually are


----------



## BeeMaiden

cmzaha said:


> Do not judge what you have not tried, and I am not asking you to buy my soap. I also make vegan soap but they do not hold a candle to animal fat soap. And remember we started out as hunters gathers.  Every part of an animal was used, they fed us, fats were used as salves, kept of warm etc. Becuase lard is a by product of the food industry and is not as costly as veggie oils it does not mean it makes an inferior soap. Price of oil does NOT determine the quality of a bar of soap
> 
> Hard soap is not necessarily a great soap. Coconut oil makes wonderfully hard white soap the lathers in salt water because it is very soluble, so it does not last long. Palm oil makes a nice vegan soap, but in high percentage does not lather well and is waxy feeling. Olive Oil soap is very hard but is slimy and sticky even after a year cure. I never take out castile under a year cure. Lard and tallow make hard low soluble soap that is creamy and moisturizing. Best suggestion is to make 1 oil soaps and form your own opinions not what you read. I love Canola added to soap, but most shy away from it because of dos problems. I have a soap sitting in front of me that was made last September and not 1 spot of dos used at a rate of 20%, so do not believe all you read. Test Test Test
> 
> What is Tallow :???:


Certainly hardness is not the only criterion for my soap. I judge it on moisturizing ability (and yes, soap does moisturize and it is important that it does otherwise we wouldnt superfat), lather, and how long it lasts in the shower. 
I find it slightly amusing that you are so firmly rooted in your opinions that you cannot handle someone else's opinion.
I think it all boils down to our worldview. See, I don't believe in the hunter-gatherer theory, nor in evolution. So the point you made about the hunter-gatherers is meaningless to me because I don't hold to that theory. I definitely don't want an argument about that, but it appears we will never see eye-to-eye 
If I wanted lard soap, I could get some at the store. Unfortunately soaping has gotten me into the habit of reading soap labels. But high-quality vegetable soap? uh-huh. Maybe you just don't know how to made vegetable soap correctly. It's pretty awesome stuff.


----------



## Susie

BeeMaiden said:


> I appreciate your advice  And a little debate never hurt anyone. I was just feeling a little bugged regarding the perhaps just a tiny bit overly critical replies I recieved. I am here to learn, of course, but the causeless assumptions made about me and my soap make me feel less than welcome. You might note, for example, the ever-so-slightly sarcastic comment made earlier in this thread. It makes me wonder whether there might be a small amount of animosity regarding any new blood in the business, and this is more the root issue, than if my soaps caused someone's skin to fall off.
> 
> *1)  I find nothing said overly critical or sarcastic.  What you got was straight up truth with patient explanations.
> 2)  Two(or more) of us do not sell soap, and probably never will.  This has nothing to do with competition, as I tried to point out earlier.*
> 
> Seriously, if my customers are happy, why should that concern you? I just got an order tonight from a doctor because he tried my little sample and loved its moisturizing properties and wants to use it in his office.
> Regarding the shea - no, I don't use that as a selling point.  It's simply a tidbit of information i picked up in my research. But is it not true that shea has a higher unsaponifiable content and therefore it tends to be a goodly percentage of the SF?
> 
> *No, it's not true. You won't trust my answer, so you go do your own research on superfats and what fatty acids are left after the lye gets done with it.  I will give you a hint, though, look for Kevin Dunn.*
> 
> I simply mention the oils I use and that I superfat so that a tiny bit of that oil content is still in the bar when it is finished.
> 
> 
> Aww, thanks! I think your fears are ungrounded though - I do the lick test and also test them on myself before even thinking about selling them. I understand that there is plenty at stake including my own name and cottage industry as a whole. I appreciate your concern - and share it. I hope your business flourishes!
> 
> 
> Sure, it's hard when it is dry after a 6 month cure, but start using it in the shower and you might find it not so hard after all.
> This is where I disagree. See, I would never buy your soap because it has animal fat in it. Our skin wasn't made to absorb animal fat. If I am going to bother to make the stuff, then I am going to make the best and lard seems like a cheapo way to make not-so-good soap. Vegetable oils are more expensive because they are higher quality and a more pure fat. I would take a fat from a plant anyday over a antibiotic-pumped fat raised in a factory farm. Just my 2cents.



*Do you know why pigs are used so often as the last animal to test medications and products that they are developing for humans?  It is because they are so similar to us in how their bodies are made and how they react that it is an excellent predictor of how humans will react.  People also have had successful "pig part" transplants of such things as heart valves.  We also used to use porcine based insulin on humans.

Also, the fact that you do not have the time spent in testing tells me that you have no idea what the quality of your soap will be after a six months to a year cure.  Not to mention DOS. *


----------



## FerrisWheel

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> In the U.S. of A there is no need for such things, which has pros and cons, of course
> 
> Eta, the total cost would depend on how different those soaps actually are



Yeah.  I did wonder how so many soapers on YT, etc... have literally hundreds of bars of soap and constantly make new things.

There is a successful YT soaper who has used other peoples recipes for things (not just soap) and shows the making process.  She isn't very accurate with measurements (I remember seeing here being over 10% out on one ingredient!).

She'll often sign off her videos by saying "this will be available on my website in a couple of weeks/a month"

I simply can't believe that the right level of testing has been carried out.


----------



## BeeMaiden

cmzaha said:


> Wonderful....just enough time for a good cure



<you cannot tell me that this wasn't sarcastic:crazy:



Susie said:


> *Do you know why pigs are used so often as the last animal to test medications and products that they are developing for humans?  It is because they are so similar to us in how their bodies are made and how they react that it is an excellent predictor of how humans will react.  People also have had successful "pig part" transplants of such things as heart valves.  We also used to use porcine based insulin on humans. *


I understand that pigs are very similar to humans, but you are not using the pigs "skin grease" on your skin, you are using his internal grease. There is a difference, therefore, your logic dosen't hold up.



FerrisWheel said:


> Yeah.  I did wonder how so many soapers on YT, etc... have literally hundreds of bars of soap and constantly make new things.
> 
> There is a successful YT soaper who has used other peoples recipes for things (not just soap) and shows the making process.  She isn't very accurate with measurements (I remember seeing here being over 10% out on one ingredient!).
> 
> She'll often sign off her videos by saying "this will be available on my website in a couple of weeks/a month"
> 
> I simply can't believe that the right level of testing has been carried out.



Thats strange. Soap dosen't take a "couple" of weeks to cure, it takes at least a month and a half.
But it would be cool to be able to show the video of it being made.


----------



## KristaMarie

BeeMaiden said:


> I find it slightly amusing that you are so firmly rooted in your opinions that you cannot handle someone else's opinion.



Aren't you doing the exact same thing?

I was watching this thread earlier, impressed by your ability to not lose your cool and thinking maybe people were being a bit harsh. Now I'm seeing it may have been justified.
You can't come here and insult the quality of the products made by much more experienced soapers, because they contain :: gasp:: lard. I don't use lard, because I'm a vegetarian and it doesn't feel right to me. However, I recognize that lard brings great qualities to soap and it's use prevents more waste in landfills.

Just because something can be found in store bought products doesn't mean it's of lower quality. That doesn't mean you have to use it, but don't be insulting.


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## rparrny

BeeMaiden said:


> If I wanted lard soap, I could get some at the store. Unfortunately soaping has gotten me into the habit of reading soap labels. But high-quality vegetable soap? uh-huh. Maybe you just don't know how to made vegetable soap correctly. It's pretty awesome stuff.


I have been reading this thread and have seen you morph from inquisitor to defender to insulter....
A wise old man once said "Those who cannot appreciate their opponents point of view do not truly understand their own"
I am known among people who love and hate me as someone who calls a spade and spade and refuses to be politically correct (I personally think it is ruining this country) so here goes my two cents...
When I read your posts, I envision a young 20 something person with all the enthusiasm and energy that comes with that age, looking to start a business with a handmade product that will be loved by all.  I also see, like I have seen in _my _children when they were that age (thank goodness that's over) that they know better than anyone, especially someone older than themselves...I remember telling my daughter "Amber, I can't wait until _I'm_ 25 and then _I'll_ know everything".  
With age comes wisdom and that is what you're being offered here...granted some responses are a bit harsh, but a true apprentice (and that is what you are, whether you want to admit it or not), needs to bite the bullet and show respect to those who have much more experience in both the art of soap making and the business as well.  Defending your position is a product of immaturity but insulting members here that are considered well respected artisans is just...well a character flaw...
Now you can just tell yourself this is a group of stuck up soap makers trying to keep a new kid on the block from breaking in and leave...or you can re read your posts, recognize the degradation and arrogance of them and give a heartfelt apology and maybe you can learn something here...


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## Susie

Many soaps, especially high OO soaps, take a minimum of 6 months to cure.  All soaps change greatly with a longer cure.  You show your lack of research and experience here.  Which is exactly our point.

You need to go do research on the chemical makeup of the various "greases" of pigs if you don't understand them.  I am not arguing with your desire not to use lard in soap.  I am not trying to convince you to use it.  But you took a stand against something you don't understand, and managed to insult every soaper here that uses lard.  

It just may be that we understand something that you don't, and more education and experience might help you understand.  However, there is no helping someone who *won't* learn.


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## Cindy2428

Homage to the Lard!!!!!

First of all, Relle you are just too funny; love you sister!

Bee - I have a story for you re lard soap. My first soap was an unscented, plain HP castile that I still test, use every 3 months for over the last 15 months?? - no notes in front of me. I keep hoping it will get better, but can't get beyond the slimy feel. My next exploration was small batches of vegetable oils with additives to create a base vegetarian recipe. It took 6 months of 2-3x a week batches to create one that as a customer, I would pay for. It's time consuming and expensive to make and my testers give it on average an "8" on the overall satisfaction scale.

Then, after much reading here, the lard bug struck. Having had greasy skin and acne as a teenager, I had a preconceived dislike for washing my face with "piggy", but the mad scientist in me could not pass up on possibly missing out on something wonderful.

Well, as the lard/tallow gurus here are smiling, lard soap just cannot be beat. It is no coincidence that it has outlasted everything else, and has survived Grandmas, great and great, great, great grandmas recipes. All of my fiddling, down to 0.5% of this and that in my vegetable soap could not beat a simple, cost effective lard soap. 

Now, here's the story - A few weeks ago I went to a spa/salon looking to buy a wig. As the owner was helping me, we immediately connected. Of course I started talking about soap. She asked for some samples; her interest was in the vegetarian soap...... I made her a basket of well cured soap - unlabeled and asked her and her staff to try the different types and to let me know which they liked best. (Susie, I can see you smiling). I went back a week later for some well-deserved pampering and the results:

1).  Prettiest soap; M&P - 20 somethings  did not find it too drying. 30+ said it would make good guest soap; not something they would use.

2). Best soap - hands down piggy all the way. I gave them 2 kinds 50% and 70% lard with a mixture of 5% SF with shea and mango butter with a 100% coconut milk sub in both. 

3). Only 1 out of the 6 even liked the vegetarian soap better than the M&P! I'm not knocking M&P, I personally love it and recommend SFIC base all of the time: But once your skin starts to dry out and show signs of aging - not the product to use.

Now these results were not surprising to me - my testers have consistently told me the same thing. I loved the look on these folks faces when I went over the ingredients. (BTW - I did check for vegans and allergies and kosher lifestyles).

The bottom line to this soliloquy is as a business owner, you need to find your own niche and identify your customer. From your posts it sounds like based on your value systems that your customer is a lot like yourself. You may want to consider branching out though..... Your competition will.


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## hmlove1218

BeeMaiden said:


> Certainly hardness is not the only criterion for my soap. I judge it on moisturizing ability (and yes, soap does moisturize and it is important that it does otherwise we wouldnt superfat), lather, and how long it lasts in the shower.



Actually, TEG (and all the others), are correct. Soap cannot moisturize as it is against the nature of the product - soap cleans. Some soaps clean extremely well, thus stripping the skin of its oils and making us feel dry. Other soaps don't clean as well and leave some oils to remain on the skin.

Superfat has nothing to do with this in its purpose, as superfatting is there to ensure that the soap is safe to use and has no lye excess. Plus, it's a lot easier and makes a much better soap than the old salting out method.



BeeMaiden said:


> I find it slightly amusing that you are so firmly rooted in your opinions that you cannot handle someone else's opinion.



I think you are describing yourself very well here, as most of the members who are responding to you have at least double your experience in soapmaking. You are being very stubborn in your point of view and unwilling to see it from the other side of the fence..



BeeMaiden said:


> I think it all boils down to our worldview. See, I don't believe in the hunter-gatherer theory.... So the point you made about the hunter-gatherers is meaningless to me because I don't hold to that theory.



As the minions say whaaaaaa?? I didn't know the ancient Mayan had Walmart stores! Just learned something new 



BeeMaiden said:


> If I wanted lard soap, I could get some at the store. Unfortunately soaping has gotten me into the habit of reading soap labels. But high-quality vegetable soap? uh-huh. Maybe you just don't know how to made vegetable soap correctly. It's pretty awesome stuff.



Oh yes, you certainly could get lard soap at the store, but then it is not a handcrafted soap and likely isn't soap at all. We could all just go buy soap at the store and not make it anymore and most of us would save a bit of money. But we all got into this hobby because we wanted something better for our skin than the crap at the supermarket. The lard soaps at the store cannot hold a candle to a quality handmade lard soap - and this is coming from a veggie soaper!

I personally don't care for lard soaps, but I at least tried it before I ruled it out of my recipe. I would highly suggest you do as well because lard is much, much closer to the makeup of human skin than any vegetable oil will ever be.


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## KristaMarie

hmlove1218 said:


> As the minions say whaaaaaa?? I didn't know the ancient Mayan had Walmart stores! Just learned something new



I wasn't going to touch that, but I'm glad you did haha


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## not_ally

Bee, I think the reason this conversation is so unproductive - in terms of reconciling viewpoints, not airing them  - is that you have very decided ideas about things, generally and regarding soaping - which are probably not consistent with those of most of the rest of us. Eg.; evolution.  I absolutely do not agree with you, but also absolutely think you have a right to your own beliefs.  Who knows, maybe when I die and discover the great truths the joke will be on me.

But if you do not believe in the evolution of species and the resulting genetic propinquity that it brings, why even talk about how close pig DNA/oils might be to human ones?  That seems inconsistent to me.  If I were you, I might just say that your religious/philosophical beliefs are such that you use certain oils and do not use others (if that is the case, although I am still not sure that is why you rule out lard, or if you've even tried soaping with it, I don't think you've responded to that.)  Anyway, that would make it easier for you, and you might not to even have to do it that much if your customer base shares your views.

ETA:  I am going to ask very clearly and explicitly here:  *HAVE YOU USED LARD IN YOUR SOAP YET?*  Sorry, for the caps, I hate, hate, hate it when people do that, but it would be v. helpful to know, and at least it won't get overlooked/unaddressed unless you purposefully choose to do so.


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## cmzaha

BeeMaiden said:


> <you cannot tell me that this wasn't sarcastic:crazy:
> 
> 
> I understand that pigs are very similar to humans, but you are not using the pigs "skin grease" on your skin, you are using his internal grease. There is a difference, therefore, your logic dosen't hold up.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats strange. Soap dosen't take a "couple" of weeks to cure, it takes at least a month and a half.
> But it would be cool to be able to show the video of it being made.



Actually many moons ago when I had a 3rd degree burn on half my face, fell asleep on the bow of our boat which was a bad plan, they did you pigs grease to help soften the dry hard crust and to help scarring. I ended up with not scarring even with having it peeled by the doc. 

Just for information I superfat way less than 5%, my drains cannot take all the extra oil in soap and it also helps cut scum. And several of my customers have noticed the difference and ask I am doing different. As mentioned you have a lot to learn. You see, I am comfortable enough with my recipes so I do not need to superfat. Soap is not moisturizing, technically moisture needs to come from the inside. Lotion that will absorb into the skin when made correctly will help but not solve all moisture issues. Experience is the best educator. We can all learn from books which is necessary, but the true education comes from experience
I am in the USA so I can take all I want, it may change in the next few years but for now I will go with a large amount of selection. Actually I have been whittling down my recipes, to what I feel are the ones I could not go to market without, preparing for the day we may have to change



BeeMaiden said:


> <you cannot tell me that this wasn't sarcastic:crazy:



Nope, not sarcastic just the truth. :lolno:


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## IrishLass

BeeMaiden said:
			
		

> I judge it on moisturizing ability (and yes, soap does moisturize and it is important that it does otherwise we wouldnt superfat


 
BeeMaiden, again, I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is given, but the above statement is a prime example of the wise adage that Navigator posted earlier in the thread.... that "*you don't know all the things you don't know"*, and that's why you are getting the advice from everyone to slow down and hold off on jumping into selling right now and continue doing more research. 

As the good Gent, Hmlove1218, and others have so rightly pointed out, soap does not moisturize. It cleanses. The only thing that a superfat does, besides making sure our soaps are not lye-heavy, is to lessen it's cleansing ability to strip off as much of our skin's natural oils that it normally would strip off with a lower superfat. 

In other words, all of those super-fatting oils are still chemically a part of the soap's alkaline matrix and will go to work to cleanse your skin, but maybe not as harshly as it would have at a lower super-fat.

I can see how some may perceive this lesser cleansing effect to mean that a soap is moisturizing, but, truly, it's just that the soap is not as effective at cleansing one's skin as it could be at a lesser super-fat. On the surface of things, one might mistakenly deem these to mean the same thing, but there are actually different mechanisms going on.


IrishLass


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## jolando

*confused*

Longtime lurker, first time poster.

I'm a fairly  new soaper (less than 2 years) and I make goat milk soap.  I read over  and over again about how goat milk soap is greatly moisturizing because  of capric-capryllic triglyceride and extra glycerin.

So,  I'm reading this thread and a few people mention that soap is NOT  moisturizing, that it 'moisturizes' by how much oil isn't stripped off  the skin.  So why is milk used at all in soap? Novelty? The feel of the  lather?

Also, since cmzaha was mentioned as being  successful in this business for a long time, I went to her site to check  out her products.  The glycerin soaps are advertised as offering the  following benefits:
• Provides Moisture to the skin; Leaving you feeling hydrated for hours
• Moisturized & healthy skin is known to aid in preventing wrinkles, stretch marks/tears in the skin

And the Cool Water Goat's Milk Bar has the following copy:
Known properties of Goat milk
moisturizing and nourishing to the skin because of capric-caprylic triglyceride.

Capric-caprylic triglyceride
is  an oily liquid made from coconut oil which is known as an effective  skin moisturizer that helps to contribute to skin softness; slowing the  loss of water from the skin by forming a barrier on the skin’s surface.  It is the only milk that contains naturally occurring capric-caprylic  triglycerides; protein strands of goat milk are shorter than other types  of milk and are more readily absorbed by skin.

Naturally occurring lactic acid
 that helps keep skin smooth by encouraging skin turnover (it acts  similar to a gentle peel). It also contains many vitamins, specifically  A, D and B6, as well as the anti-oxidant Selenium.

We only  purchase our goats milk from a supplier that uses only happy goats! They  are never fed anything genetically modified or containing animal  bi-products and raised on farms that do not use any sprays,  insecticides, or pesticides. Our suppliers goats milk is whole and  pasteurized; no growth hormones, antibiotics, or preservatives.


I'm  not trying to pick on her, but that's the kind of stuff I read about  handmade soap and goat's milk soap, and the public reads, so I'm just using it as an example that can be found lots of places.  But  apparently it isn't true? Or is misleading?

Like I said, I'm rather new to the soaping world, so I was hoping someone could explain the contradictory info.


Thanks!


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## not_ally

It seems a little disingenuous to say that you are not picking on Carolyn, but still find her web site and quote large blocks of text from it.   I thought that was unnecessary.  You could have made your point in a much different way.

That being said, I understand what you are saying generally about the "moisturizing" versus "non-stripping" terminology.  At this point, in my mind, they are pretty much the same thing.  People describe it differently, but to me they are more or less interchangeable.  Like using the terms superfat or lye discount interchangeably.


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## kumudini

First thing first, you ARE picking on her. There's nothing on her site that says her soaps do all that, only that they contain known substances with those properties. It's called information. She is giving her customers the benefit of information about all the things in her soaps, that she and so many of us here feel that might be good for the skin.No where on her site it says that the soaps by themselves are moisturizing. It is very open and mean spirited attack on this experienced soaper who freely and generously helps fellow soapers in their soapy dilemmas. Please know that this won't be tolerated at any cost.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Agreed - you could have used more generic wording. 

Also bear in mind the terminology that customers would use compared to what is actually the case, it can be a world apart. While we look at it as less stripping, to the customer it feels better on the skin and the only way they can really relate to that is to think of moisturizing the skin. 

As for milk, the enzymes might well play a role in things, but the fat certainly increases the superfat of the soap, making it less stripping......


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## jolando

not_ally said:


> It seems a little disingenuous to say that you are not picking on Carolyn, but* still find her web site*  and quote large blocks of text from it.   I thought that was  unnecessary.  You could have made your point in a much different  way.



It's in her sig! You make it sound like something nefarious!
I  was curious about her products since people here respect her, and saw  the same info I've seen dozens of other places, and had directly been disputed in this thread, so I thought I'd ask.  Out of confusion, not mean spirited-ness.  Again, an example, one that I found directly because of this thread.
I thought I was being thorough and clear by quoting.  

Thank  you for your input regarding my question.  I can see how it would be  easier to say soap is moisturizing than to explain how it leaves  more of your natural oils.  Points to the right conclusion even though  they're different methods.

Vkumudini:


> There's nothing  on her site that says her soaps do all that, only that they contain  known substances with those properties. It's called information.


Yes, it doesn't say anywhere "These things _will_ happen with use  of this product," but it does say "Known Benefits of Glycerin Soap."   (Again, not intending ill will, but it does say that)
That greatly implies  that you should experience some of those things if you use the product,  otherwise why include the info? (I am not asking her directly or in particular, again, lots of people do this)  Just saying that most people reading  that would take it to mean "OK, that's what I can expect from this  product, so I'll buy it."  I decided to get that thing called  information here because it has been disputed here.  I know there are  lots of things people are misinformed, or misunderstand, about in general and  was hoping for some insight on this particular issue. 

I would quote other sources, but the makers might also be members here and apparently that would constitute "attacking."


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## cmzaha

jolando said:


> Longtime lurker, first time poster.
> 
> 
> I'm a fairly  new soaper (less than 2 years) and I make goat milk soap.  I read over  and over again about how goat milk soap is greatly moisturizing because  of capric-capryllic triglyceride and extra glycerin.
> 
> 
> So,  I'm reading this thread and a few people mention that soap is NOT  moisturizing, that it 'moisturizes' by how much oil isn't stripped off  the skin.  So why is milk used at all in soap? Novelty? The feel of the  lather?
> 
> Thanks!



Just in case you are interested the website is not mine but my daughters, and you had no right to quote what is on our site. We do not outright state soap does anything. So do not judge me, my daughter or our site. This is actually why I never used to list our site name. I sell at outdoor markets and DO NOT advertise that soap does anything magic, some feel superfatted soap moisturizes, so be it. People ask me for acne soap, I tell them I have no such soap, only some that some find helpful. 

Online sales are extremely competitive and sometimes the envelope get pushed a bit, my daughter has to make a living from her site so do not judge her either. I do not lie to people and do not recommend handmade soap to everyone. Some people simply cannot use it. 

Just a little FYI, FDA, several years ago, was all over our site and we had no letters to discontinue and remove any wording. The inspector also placed a large order with us. 

I DO NOT appreciate seeing text from our website Posted in a forum or anywhere else. You DID NOT have permission to copy and paste from us. This will not make you very popular... I am quite unhappy at the moment to come home from a hot night at market with poor sales and see this


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## jolando

cmzaha said:


> Just in case you are interested the website is not mine but my daughters,  I do not necessarily approve of some descriptions but gave up fighting her a long time ago about it since she has to make a living at it. So do not judge me, and do not quote what is on my daughters site.



I thought this might be the case because I did look at the "About Us" page, and you weren't a contact.  Not specifically that it was a family member, or not your site at all, but a lot of business owners don't run their sites, and things can get muddled up when delegated, etc.
It wasn't a judgement or intended to be personal, because, as I stated, I see it everywhere.  I thought it would better illustrate what I was asking.

Oh! You edited your post.
I don't think I needed permission.  I clearly stated where I got it, didn't claim it as my own.
If there are laws against this, I'm ignorant of them.

And I never meant to imply you (and others) are doing anything illegal, or against any regulations.  It really is that I saw there was contradictory info that led me to think I had been misinformed (not necessarily intentionally) by all the sites that say soap can be moisturizing and wanted to know if that was true or not.


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## cmzaha

jolando said:


> I thought this might be the case because I did look at the "About Us" page, and you weren't a contact.  Not specifically that it was a family member, or not your site at all, but a lot of business owners don't run their sites, and things can get muddled up when delegated, etc.
> It wasn't a judgement or intended to be personal, because, as I stated, I see it everywhere.  I thought it would better illustrate what I was asking.
> 
> Oh! You edited your post.
> I don't think I needed permission.  I clearly stated where I got it, didn't claim it as my own.
> If there are laws against this, I'm ignorant of them.
> 
> And I never meant to imply you (and others) are doing anything illegal, or against any regulations.  It really is that I saw there was contradictory info that led me to think I had been misinformed (not necessarily intentionally) by all the sites that say soap can be moisturizing and wanted to know if that was true or not.


So, I edited my post, it is allowed, because I continued to become more and more unhappy to see someone take direct quotes from our site, or anyone's site. You want a question answered ask the question do not go to someone's site and quote what is said on their site. I am a part owner but I do nothing with the site. You took Our descriptions and pasted them here, not a cool thing to do


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## Dorymae

Jolando, Carolyn is correct when she says it is very competitive. Her wording is actually very good. I'm impressed. You see we walk a very fine line selling on the internet, the FDA is very explicit with what can be said and yet we need to convey to the public, who do not understand the science behind soapmaking, what sets our products above the rest. 

To give an example of how fine that line can be take this statement:

Can reduce fine lines and wrinkles. 

Written this way is a violation and would make your product a drug. 

However:

Can reduce the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles. This is a perfectly legal cosmetic claim. 

To the consumer's mind they add up to the same thing but they are not. 

This is the line we need to walk and frankly Carolyn did a great job as far as I can see.


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## jolando

Ok, so the consensus of the replies in this thread is that soap is not  moisturizing, but it can be permissible to let customers think that it  is because it's an easier and more familiar concept.  Got it.

Now back to my question regarding goat milk.


The  Efficacious Gentleman said:


> As for milk, the enzymes might well play a  role in things, but the fat certainly increases the superfat of the  soap, making it less stripping......



The butterfat can be accounted for and a 0% superfat milk soap could be made, nullifying the "moisturizing" properties, leaving  only the enzymes that might make it through saponification. With that in mind:
Would  then the only reason to use it be the potential enzymes since you can  make any bar less stripping by superfatting using any combo of  oils/fats?

I'm a function over form kind of person, so if the _main_ benefit of using goat milk is label appeal, I'd rather not use it.
I'd  appreciate anyone's input; I quoted Efficacious Gentleman because  that's the only instance of someone addressing my question about milk in  soap.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Make a batch with and one without - that being the only difference, even if you account for the sf difference or not, but keep the recipe itself the same. Then compare the two. 

My shaving soap with milk of the goat is much better than the same recipe with just water. In that particular case I find it to be much more than just label appeal


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## jolando

I'll have to try that; thanks!

Is your shaving soap with goat milk better overall?  Is there anything in particular you like about its performance?


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## cmzaha

Many things you will have to make up your own mind on and not go on someone's opinion. Label appeal means everything when you are selling in a saturated market whether it be outdoor markets or online. It is called Marketing. I happen to prefer soap with distilled water for the lather factor, but gm milk helps sell it so guess what I make... Actually there is not much I do not make. I now have a line of Camel Milk Soaps for my return to a former market I left after 5+ yrs that has 3 other soapmakers. I need an edge!  

You will only have your answers after hundreds of batches of soaps and testing


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## rparrny

Wow...all of a sudden I feel so dainty, so gracious...so politically correct!


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## not_ally

cmzaha said:


> Many things you will have to make up your own mind on [.]



That is true for almost everything with me.  There seem to a handful of fail safe rules (CO is drying, 4 week + cure required, no selective SF w/CP, etc.).  Otherwise it is *all* a question of subjective opinion/perception, based on individual soapers and their individual needs.  There at things which *I* feel make a perceptible difference, or that feel a certain way to me (either good or bad) but others - whose opinions I respect - disagree.


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