# LS



## WhackySoaper (Apr 12, 2015)

Hi everyone, this is my first attempt at making LS and I have some questions and would very much appreciate help from experienced LS soapers. I have my oils measured out and was trying to get the right lye amount and water calculated but I'm coming up with different amounts from Soap Calc and Summer Bee. The Soap Calc doesn't give an option for LS so I'm assuming the lye and water calculations I'm getting there are for bar soap? Also I'm doing the water LS method but I do want to add glycerin, Summer Bee says add it to batch oil but I want to know if I add it to borax dilution water will it in time separate after I bottle the LS up? Oh yeah one more thing I'm making body wash or gel hopefully and want to know can I achieve this LS without the use of sodium hydroxide and only using the KOH? Thank you


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## KristaY (Apr 12, 2015)

WhackySoaper said:


> Hi everyone, this is my first attempt at making LS and I have some questions and would very much appreciate help from experienced LS soapers. I have my oils measured out and was trying to get the right lye amount and water calculated but I'm coming up with different amounts from Soap Calc and Summer Bee. The Soap Calc doesn't give an option for LS so I'm assuming the lye and water calculations I'm getting there are for bar soap?
> 
> Also I'm doing the water LS method but I do want to add glycerin, Summer Bee says add it to batch oil but I want to know if I add it to borax dilution water will it in time separate after I bottle the LS up?
> 
> Oh yeah one more thing I'm making body wash or gel hopefully and want to know can I achieve this LS without the use of sodium hydroxide and only using the KOH? Thank you


 
On Soap Calc you need to tick the boxes KOH & 90%. This will give you the amount of KOH for liquid soap. Also go to the SF box and change it to 3% or less. Also, under water, tick the water:lye ratio box and enter 3:1. This will give you a higher amount of water needed for LS. I haven't used SBM but others are very familiar with it so hopefully will come along to help with that one.

If you're using a SF of 1-3% you won't need a borax solution to neutralize at the end. I like to use 50% water to dissolve the KOH completely then add 50% glycerin. Once that's mixed, I pour into my oils and begin the mix.

Yes, use KOH only for liquid soap. Good luck with it!


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## FGOriold (Apr 12, 2015)

Soapcalc defaults to 2 X the weight of the KOH, Summbee does 3 X the weight of KOH. How much water you use to dissolve your lye is really a personal choice. Less water = quicker trace but stiffer paste, more water = slower trace but often a more fluid paste. Also, keep in mind that the stiffness or fluidness of your paste is affected by the oils you use.

Also, you will not need to neutralize you soap unless you have a lye excess which you should not if you are adding a small superfat.
As KristaY says, you can replace a portion of your water with glycerin as that helps speed up trace and cook time (depending on  how much you use). Just make sure you use enough water to dissolve the KOH (I do not go below a 1.1:1 water:KOH ratio). Even just replacing a small percentage of the water with glycerin helps speed things along. You can add this glycerin to your water, KOH solution or directly to your oils.


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 12, 2015)

Hi KristaY, when I used the calculator on soap cal and clicked boxes KOH & 90% the batch water is 9.22 oz. less than Summer Bee's calculator this is very confusing and makes me feel unsure of what to do. I don't want to SF I just want to add the glycerin to the borax water for neutralizing and then dilute the paste but I need to know if it will separate? And info on Summer Bee says adding 10% NaOH will increase the thickness but I don't want to use it if I can get thick gel like LS without using it.
Thanks  for your reply


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 12, 2015)

Hello FGOriold, and Thank you the info you gave to me is very helpful about the weight of water used to dilute the lye. I'm new to soaping and have a lot to learn I thought the batch water amount that is calculated was the amount needed for saponification not for dissolving the lye. I am using 32 ozs. of oils 16 oz. of soy bean, 6 oz. of castor and 10 oz. of palm kernel oil and since glycerin speeds up trace I will add maybe 1 oz, so please tell me what do you suggest for the batch water weight 2x or 3x? Thanks for your reply


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

I am assuming you are using the SBM advanced calculator for liquid and cream soap.  It is geared for letting people use KOH as well as NaOH for cream soaps.  It has a default 94% KOH purity already figured it, so when you say 90% KOH, you are telling it you are using 10% NaOH.  If you don't enter anything in that box, you are using 100% KOH at 94% purity.  Hope that did not confuse you more.  

I have stopped using that calculator, as I do not make cream soaps(yet).  I have started using this one:

http://summerbeemeadow.com/sites/all/sbm_calc_input/calc_input_page_1.1.html

As it gives me the most user friendly format with the ability to use grams, and not have all the extra steps the advanced calls for.  It also gives me the paste consistency I like the best.  I like SoapCalc.net for bar soaps, mind you, but the SBM for liquid.

As mentioned above, glycerin is used for a couple of reasons.  First is to decrease the time to get to trace.  Even using 1/4 of the water total in glycerin will make a huge difference.  I add mine to either the KOH/water solution once the KOH is dissolved, or I dump it into the oils.  Either way is fine.  The other reason people use glycerin is that it is a humectant.  It will draw moisture to your skin.  You will need to adjust the amount to find what is right for you.

The drawback to using glycerin to substitute out for 100% of the water is that you have to heat the glycerin or the KOH/glycerin to get the KOH to dissolve.  You can get around this by mixing the KOH with at least its own weight in water first, then adding the glycerin.  Your choice, though.

I hate to repeat what others say so much, but they are entirely correct when they say you do not need to use borax at all if you don't want to.  Simply use a 1-3% superfat, and you will not have to use it.  You may want to try to thicken it later with a borax solution, but that is your choice.

Batch water is what you mix with the lye.  Dilution water is something else entirely.  You will figure out how much water to dilute with by adding a bit at the time.  Start with half your paste weight(weigh the pot empty first, write down the weight, then weigh it with the paste in it, the difference is the paste weight).  Add water in small increments after that to end up with 1-2 small lumps.  Write down how much water it took for future reference.


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

WhackySoaper said:


> Hello FGOriold, and Thank you the info you gave to me is very helpful about the weight of water used to dilute the lye. I'm new to soaping and have a lot to learn I thought the batch water amount that is calculated was the amount needed for saponification not for dissolving the lye. I am using 32 ozs. of oils 16 oz. of soy bean, 6 oz. of castor and 10 oz. of palm kernel oil and since glycerin speeds up trace I will add maybe 1 oz, so please tell me what do you suggest for the batch water weight 2x or 3x? Thanks for your reply



I am not Faith, so please forgive me for interjecting here.  Is there a particular reason you want to try that recipe?  What is it going to be used for?


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 12, 2015)

Hiya Susie, I was waiting for you and hoping you would jump in on this Thank you.  Yes I did use the SBM advanced calculator for liquid and cream soap and because of you I now understand when to use it. Susie when I use the glycerin do I have to use it as a substitute out of the 100% of the water or can I add it to batch oils? The main reason I want to use the glycerin is I want the LS to have a nice feel and the LS to be more gel like than liquid so that's why I wanted to add it to the borax water but need to know if it will separate? Also is borax a bad thing? Thanks for your reply


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 12, 2015)

Susie I'm trying to make body wash but more gel like than liquid, I want a cleansing, bubbly and great feel body gel. Hubby wants it to be very bubbly.


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

OK, let's make sure you understand glycerin first.  It will help speed trace(something you really do need in liquid soap).  It will not thicken your soap.  You need to first learn to make liquid soap paste before we can move on to thickening, as thickening is done primarily after the soap paste is made.

I ran your recipe through SBM at 3% superfat, and got KOH-6.91 oz and Water-20.73 oz.  Using those numbers, what I would do is this:

I would mix my KOH into 10.4 oz water until dissolved, then add 10.33 oz glycerin to the hot KOH/water mix.(50% water, 50% glycerin to get total water amount of 20.73)  This is my personal preference because the math is easy and sort of idiot proof.(me and math are not friends)  However, I have successfully used as little as 1/4 the total water amount in glycerin and still got a faster trace than using plain water.  So, while I would use more than the 1 oz you originally thought, you need not use the whole 20.73 oz in glycerin.  This saves lots of money while learning liquid soapmaking.

You can add that glycerin to the batch oils, or to the hot KOH/water.  It does not change the outcome one iota.  Just remember to get it in there before you start stick blending.  You can't add it to the borax water, because that is dilution phase, not paste making phase.  Got it?

Now, thickness of liquid soap is a huge issue.  On this one, I will send you to read IrishLass' tutorial in this thread:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114&highlight=glycerin 

And the follow up in this thread:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

Because I can't seem to get my paste and diluted soap to come out that perfect gel consistency.  If I were you, I would use her recipe exactly as written until you have a few batches under your belt.  Do read her posts in both threads first, as she does some experimentation that you need to be aware of.

Please note, however, that she does not use borax.  I don't use borax either.  Most of us do not use borax for various and sundry reasons in making liquid soap.


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 12, 2015)

Thank you so much Susie lots of great info I'm looking at the video now will keep you posted


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 12, 2015)

Ok I tried the glycerin water substitute method and it did not turn into gel like in the 
*Carrie Petersen* You tube video, it is thick & white and I'm not sure if should cook it till it turns gel like or just let it sit over night and it will gel on it's own? Any help would be highly appreciated


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## IrishLass (Apr 12, 2015)

WhackySoaper said:


> Ok I tried the glycerin water substitute method and it did not turn into gel like in the
> *Carrie Petersen* You tube video, it is thick & white and I'm not sure if should cook it till it turns gel like or just let it sit over night and it will gel on it's own? Any help would be highly appreciated


 
Hi WhackySoaper!

If by 'glycerin water substitute method', you mean that you dissolved your KOH in water and then added glycerin afterwards, then your description of 'thick and white' seems pretty normal, if my soap is anything to go by. That's pretty much what happened to me when I experimented and dissolved my KOH in water and added the glycerin afterward. I'll see if I can find the thread where I documented my experience and report back with a link.....


Edited to add: Ah, here it is. Starting at post #103:  http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=46114&highlight=glycerin+dissolve&page=11


IrishLass


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 13, 2015)

Hi IrishLass, no I didn't use water at all, I added the KOH to the hot glycerin and after lye dissolved I added the mix to my hot oils. Then it took about 25 mins before trace was reached when it turned thick & white it was so thick I couldn't SB. Then I started to cook it on low but it kept separating into liquid then I would have to SB it back together but it never turned to gel paste while I SB so I put it back on cook separated again I SB it back together then just decided to leave it alone to sit but still white and thick. When I checked on it this morning it looks like it's trying to turn into something I'm not sure what but it's still white. IrishLass Thank you for your reply


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## FGOriold (Apr 13, 2015)

WhackySoaper said:


> Hi IrishLass, no I didn't use water at all, I added the KOH to the hot glycerin and after lye dissolved I added the mix to my hot oils. Then it took about 25 mins before trace was reached when it turned thick & white it was so thick I couldn't SB. Then I started to cook it on low but it kept separating into liquid then I would have to SB it back together but it never turned to gel paste while I SB so I put it back on cook separated again I SB it back together then just decided to leave it alone to sit but still white and thick. When I checked on it this morning it looks like it's trying to turn into something I'm not sure what but it's still white.



If you are using the glycerin method 100%, it sounds like you just stick blended for too long.  It is not uncommon when using this method to get a thick white to off white or beige foamy/spongy layer on top and a liquid layer beneath it. It is not ruined and will still dilute, just too much stick blending. Typically this method will yield a finished paste in a very short amount of time and not a lot of cooking is required - that is one of the reasons people use this method.


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 13, 2015)

IrishLass I just read your post and yes that's exactly what happened to me but I did not use any water only KOH & glycerin and my soap is like you say "an opaque, creamy color when it turned to taffy" . I never saw the stages of flying bubbles or translucent, it went from liquid to applesauce or mashed potato to unmovable opaque pudding. Now it's a creamy colored glossy taffy and I don't know if I'm supposed to try to break it up into pieces before I dilute or just leave it alone and when I'm ready to dilute it just put the whole blob into a pot? I am in the US and it's 9:39 am here I guess at about 1:00 pm I will do the clarity and PH test if it's good I will dilute. I am a little disappointed that I didn't get the results I hoped for because using that much glycerin was supposed to save time but maybe I should've had heat to the pot while I was blending oils and glycerin lye mix and I would've achieved the translucent gel paste, I just thought about that. If I try this method again that's what I'll do next time


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## Susie (Apr 13, 2015)

OK, first, pH testing is useless. Zap test just like CP soap.  Wet a finger, rub it on the paste, touch your tongue.  No zap=ready to dilute.  You can clarity test if you like, but that is not going to answer if it is safe.

Trust me when I say that using glycerin saves a LOT of time.  Making liquid soap without using something to speed trace takes a LONG time.

Not every soap goes through every stage.  Nor does it follow any set pattern that I have been able to discern.  If it is immovable paste, you start dilution.  But you did not say if you followed IrishLass' exact recipe, so I am left wondering...

To dilute, break that blob into smaller pieces, and add water.


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 13, 2015)

Good morning FGOriold, your info is very good to know and I feel a lil better now Thank you. I did not use any alcohol so I don't know if I used glycerin method 100% but I did not use any water. As far as over blending I need to know more about that because I don't know when I have blended enough also was I supposed to blend everything with the pot cooking and when the separating occurred was I supposed to leave that way or blend back together? Thanks for your rely


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## FGOriold (Apr 13, 2015)

WhackySoaper said:


> Good morning FGOriold, your info is very good to know and I feel a lil better now Thank you. I did not use any alcohol so I don't know if I used glycerin method 100% but I did not use any water. As far as over blending I need to know more about that because I don't know when I have blended enough also was I supposed to blend everything with the pot cooking and when the separating occurred was I supposed to leave that way or blend back together? Thanks for your rely



What I am referring to is when you use glycerin at 100% to dissolve your KOH. Not referring to any water content at all, no additives, just the process of making the paste with 100% glycerin and not water. If you stick blend too much using this method/ingredients what I explained above is very common.


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 13, 2015)

Good morning Susie, to be honest I used the recipe I told you about but used video that IrishLass provided which said it would work on any recipe. Very glad you told me that about the stages because I didn't sleep well at all thinking I did something wrong I'm really feeling better now. Ok I just did the zap test and no zap. Thanks for reply


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 13, 2015)

Is it even necessary to cook the soap if using the 100% glycerin method also is it best to let paste sit overnight or do you get the same results diluting the same day if paste pass zap test?


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 13, 2015)

I'm gonna go ahead and dilute now should I boil the distilled water?


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 13, 2015)

I thought the paste was hard but it's soft & gooey


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 13, 2015)

while i'm stirring the paste I see some areas where it looks like it was trying to turn translucent


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## Susie (Apr 13, 2015)

OK, I don't cook any liquid soap anymore.  I find no need.  At the most, I melt the coconut oil in the crock pot or microwave.  And when the house is over 68 degrees, I don't even do that.  BUT, I have trial and errored my recipes to refine them to use nothing but CP for liquid soap.  Also, I don't really care if the soap is thin when diluted.  That makes a world of difference.

You don't need to boil the water unless you are in a hurry.  This is when a crock pot comes in really useful.  Just add your hot(or cold) water and turn it on high.  Break the paste up into chunks and add it to the water(or the other way around).  You will have to learn your dilution rates for each recipe, so be sure to write down how much water it took to dilute so you know for future reference. 

Since you chose to use a recipe that I don't know what it turns out like, I can't give you any clue how that soap is going to turn out.  You will have to let us know, OK?


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## IrishLass (Apr 13, 2015)

WhackySoaper said:


> Is it even necessary to cook the soap if using the 100% glycerin method also is it best to let paste sit overnight or do you get the same results diluting the same day if paste pass zap test?


 
Hi WhackSoaper- 

No- it is not necessary to cook this soap to the paste stage. I never do. Here is my very simplified explanation of how I make the paste for this recipe: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=428636&postcount=3

Once it has become paste, I zap-test. If free of zap, I then dilute. But, if it's still zappy, I hold off on diluting and I just leave the paste alone (covered) and check for zap again later that same day, or within the next few days if I happen forget.

I dilute differently than Susie, which is perfectly okay, btw- we all have our methods that work for us. I don't have a dedicated soaping crockpot, so I use the canning jar method which I explain here: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=428989&postcount=9

HTH!
IrishLass


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## WhackySoaper (Apr 27, 2015)

Good morning everyone, giving a quick update about my first liquid soap. It came out pretty good I was hoping for a thick, clear soap but it is an amber color and thin. I guess that's not a big deal other than that it's fine cleansing and bubbly and has a very nice feel. If you guys would like to see a pic let me know. I'm almost out of hair conditioner so I'm researching that now and I know I will have some questions about how to make it so I'm hoping you guys can help me with that. Thanks everyone for your help with my first LS:smile:


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