# Wonderful pine tar soaps!



## Sinful7

This is why I sell out of pine tar consistently. This is my niece before pic (on the left) and after less than one week using nothing but my pine tar, jewel weed soap. She is excited with the result so far.


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## Susie

Beautiful girl!  I am so glad your soaps work!  I have a niece that is plagued by acne, and her mom spends lots of time with her at the dermatologist's office.  I think I read somewhere on here that I can buy the pine tar at the co-op.  Will try that.  Are there other ingredients I should definitely avoid when making this?  (No trade secrets, just to avoid a mess.)


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## ilovesoap2

So happy for  her...I know she is happy too.
Just another proof that sometimes old scool works.


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## Belinda02

Susie, I got mine at Tractor Supply. Sinful, she is a pretty girl. I'm happy for both oh you.


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## Sinful7

There have been a couple post on pine tar soaps on the forum. Basically though you want to avoid anything that can speed up trace. Pine tar seems to move really fast for me. Lol so no accelerating fragrances. And I only stick blend until emulsified then stir until trace.


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## Sinful7

ilovesoap2 said:


> So happy for  her...I know she is happy too.
> Just another proof that sometimes old scool works.



No kidding, before she started using pine tar soap we had tried EVERYTHING under the sun to no avail. Anymore I swear by old school. The proof is in the pics..


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Susie said:


> Beautiful girl! I am so glad your soaps work! I have a niece that is plagued by acne, and her mom spends lots of time with her at the dermatologist's office. I think I read somewhere on here that I can buy the pine tar at the co-op. Will try that. Are there other ingredients I should definitely avoid when making this? (No trade secrets, just to avoid a mess.)


 
I would avoid other stuff in general - making a soap for a specific purpose like the PT, so I would never use an FO or anything with a chance of causing a reaction. I don't even use EOs in mine - just simple water, oils and lye.

ETA - I am so glad it's working out for her.  Good job, Sinful


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## seven

wow, that is awesome! you can totally see the improvement on her skin. i'm so happy for her, coz i know for a fact how annoying it is to have acne plaguing your face. i hope she continues to improve.

and good for you, auntie  you must be very pleased!


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## coffeetime

I'd like to try this to see if it helps my husbands excema. Does anyone know of a good brand of pine tar in Canada? I have a feed store not far from me that I can check out but I seem to recall that they had more than one brand.


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## jules92207

Incredible!


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## Ellacho

OMG Sinful7! WOW! I have a hope now! I am so happy for your niece, too! 

My 16, 14, 12 year old teenagers all have cystic pimples . We went to doctor's office several times but the prescribed medicine does not seem to work on them and they don't want to take the medicine every day either. My youngest daughter(12), she is really stressing out about her acne the most that she is now losing her the self confidence. The other day, she said, " mom only if I don't have pimples, I would be prettier...." It broke my heart... Her acne does look like your niece and I think I have a hope for her!  I am so excited it!

I've already made salt bar, acne lard soap, charcoal, tea tree and several other acne soaps for my kids but nothing has been working for them so far.

Would you mind sharing your pine tar soap recipe? Please, I would love to make it for my kids. Thank you so much.


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## MagicalMysterySoap

Oh wow that is amazing! What is the percentage of pine tar thst you use, if you don't mind me asking?


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## Sinful7

As soon as I get home near my soaping journal I can tell you. I can't remember off the top of my head

I believe it is only 8-10% I do use some jewelweed extract in my pine tar soaps as well as a couple EO's that are known to help with skin irritations and break outs. After tweaking and swapping out some stuff I finally found a recipe that seems to work pretty consistently on most skin issues.


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## Ellacho

Sinful7 said:


> As soon as I get home near my soaping journal I can tell you. I can't remember off the top of my head



Thank you Sinful7! I look forward to it !


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

My last PT batch was 15% PT, 15% CO, 35% palm 35% OO - the recipe doesn't have to be overly complicated, just something that is not going to be doing a lot of irritating or anything.  

My first PT batch had less PT, at 10%.  It is also very good, but I wanted a lower CO and higher PT this time to see how it goes.


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## dixiedragon

I like to use lavender in my pine tar soap. It blends well with the pine tar scent and softens it a bit.

My rules for pine tar - lard (not palm), full water and lots of olive oil. And use a mold you won't mind being occupied for a month or more!


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## Sinful7

My recipe was 44% OO 34% CO 4% cocoa butter 8% sweet almond oil 10% pine tar. It moves VERY fast do not use a stick blender! But I was able to unmold within 24 hrs.

I wouldn't mind bringing down the CO lvl in this but it works so well like it is for acne/ poison ivy/ eczema ect.

I would be interested to know if the higher lvl of pine tar makes a difference in the level of acne relief? EG have you tested your bars out on problematic skin? If you wouldn't mind sharing your experience?


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## Ellacho

Thank you Sinful7 and the Efficacious Gentleman for sharing recipe. 

Do you add any EOs? Please let me know where I can purchase a good pine tar. I personally never seen it before.

Thanks again for giving a hope for my kids! I am going to make both Sinful7 & the EG's recipes.


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## Sinful7

I purchase pine tar from my local feed/ tack store. Looks like this. You can also order online, there are several different brands


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## Ellacho

Thank you so much Sinful7! I am buying it right now! Oh I cannot wait to make the pine tar soap!

Did you add an EO?


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## Sinful7

I add skin soothing EO's yes. Ones known to help with skin irritations.


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## Ellacho

Sinful7 said:


> I add skin soothing EO's yes. Ones known to help with skin irritations.



I usually add the lavender, tea tree or/and rosemary EOs in my oily/acne soaps. What do you think about adding these three EOs. Any suggestions?

I am so sorry to ask so many questions. I understand this recipe might not work on my kids but I just want to make sure I made the exact same recipe as yours, if all possible.


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## Sinful7

I like all 3 of those EO's for problematic skin. I keep tee treat low due to the fact I can't stand the smell of it. Lol


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## Ellacho

Sinful7 said:


> I like all 3 of those EO's for problematic skin. I keep tee treat low due to the fact I can't stand the smell of it. Lol



Okay! I will add all three EOs. I really appreciate for all your help!


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## BabyPickles106

Does this type soap also work for psoriasis?


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## Sinful7

I have yet to try it on psoriasis. Nor am o familiar with the affliction. Perhaps someone else can be of assistance on this matter?

My goodness my auto correct is in prime form today! Lol


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## AustinStraight

I don't have any pine tar, but there is jewelweed in my backyard... I may have to make an infusion out of it  I remember now that I read last year about how it was good for all kinds of inflammation, acne, eczema, etc. and it's a traditional remedy for poison ivy.


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## Sinful7

I LOVE jewel weed! I use jewelweed extract in most of my acne soaps. I've also used the fresh plants. Wonderful!


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## MzMolly65

Sinful7 said:


> I LOVE jewel weed! I use jewelweed extract in most of my acne soaps. I've also used the fresh plants. Wonderful!



If you put Jewelweed in all your acne soaps how can you tell if it's the pine tar or the jewelweed that are giving her these results?

Great results btw, I'm not knocking that .. I'm only curious because there's no point in me using pine tar if it's really the jewelweed that's making the difference for her.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Hi Sinful - Yes, I have noticed a difference.  I don't have overly bad skin, but sometimes I get some patches on my feet that the soap takes care of very well.  I also gave some to someone with adult acne and it has helped, but I don't have any comparison images, just from what she said.  That was a 10% mix, not the 15% so I'll be interested to see what comes from it.


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## Sinful7

MzMolly65 said:


> If you put Jewelweed in all your acne soaps how can you tell if it's the pine tar or the jewelweed that are giving her these results?
> 
> Great results btw, I'm not knocking that .. I'm only curious because there's no point in me using pine tar if it's really the jewelweed that's making the difference for her.



Because I originally started out with strait pine tar soap. After playing with the recipe a LOT as previous stated, I found a combination that seems to work for problematic skin. I have also tried straight jewelweed soap. Neither had the same effect that the combo bar did. This of course doesn't mean its a rock hard truth. Everyone's skin is different.


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## MzMolly65

> Because I originally started out with strait pine tar soap. After  playing with the recipe a LOT as previous stated, I found a combination  that seems to work for problematic skin. I have also tried straight  jewelweed soap. Neither had the same effect that the combo bar did.


Great info 7 .. thanks .. May I ask how you're using the jewelweed and how much you use?  I understand you may be hesitant to share your recipe and I respect that, but I know nothing about jewelweed and have no idea how to use it so if you're willing to share a little info I'd really appreciate it.

ETA:  I started researching jewelweed only to find it's a native plant in my area (nice!) and this statement, "Jewelweed has traditionally been used to treat skin irritations--notably  reactions to poison ivy and nettles, which often grow in the same  areas. Controlled studies have not shown the plant to be an effective  treatment for these conditions. Research has found fungicidal properties  in the plant however, and it has been used to treat athlete's foot."  http://www.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca/potd/2010/10/impatiens_capensis.php


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## Sinful7

I have used both extract and the plant itself. Some will say extract won't work some swear by it. It is one of those things you will have to figure out for yourself. There are many ways it can be used, a tea can be made from steeping the plant in water and then used as the water in soaping. You can use the plant itself to make a poultice, you could even add the poultice to soap I would think. Anything you try will have nay sayers. Just fiddle with it until you find something that works for you.


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## Ellacho

Hi Sinful7, I bought the pine tar yesterday. Now, I  never heard about the jewel weed and I googled and found out its benefits. You know I have been making soaps for the past seven years. The pine tar and jewel weed are new to me.

My daughter was so excited about the soap last night when I showed her your niece's picture! She wants to try your soap right away just to see if your soap would work for her or not. 

Is any way I can buy your cured pine tar soap right now? 

Also where do I buy the jewel weed?


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## Sinful7

Ellacho where are you located?


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## Sinful7

I live where jewelweed grows but I've ordered the extract online before


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## Ellacho

Sinful7 said:


> Ellacho where are you located?



I live in northern CA!


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## Ellacho

Sinful7 said:


> I live where jewelweed grows but I've ordered the extract online before



Okay, now I am going to google the jewelweed extract .


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## doyhard

*Pine tar soap*

Are you based in the UK. I would love to sell this in our shop


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## DeeAnna

Be careful you get impatiens capensis and/or impatiens pallida, both natives to North America, if you want true jewelweed.


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## twinmom

Sinful, do you have an Etsy store? I would love to buy some of this miracle soap from you!!! As a mother of teens this would be great to help their skin!!


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## Sinful7

As of right now I'm not selling  on etsy. I'm kept very busy locally and fear growing too large too quickly


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## dixiedragon

Sinful7 said:


> As of right now I'm not selling on etsy. I'm kept very busy locally and fear growing too large too quickly


 
I'd love to buy a bar as well. My salt bar worked for a month and then it failed me. :thumbdown:

I could order jewelweed extract online...but by the time I do that, make a batch, wait 6 weeks, it would be more cost effective to just buy some!


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## jules92207

I'm with the above - would love to buy this for a few family members to see if it helps!


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## dixiedragon

Is there some sort of award for finding buyers for your soap on a soapmaker's forum?


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## cjisler

Nice thread.  Thought I'd share my two versions of pine tar soap. The links go to evernote files. I can't keep this stuff in stock.  Thank you for sharing your pictures.  We didn't think to take before pictures when we started with with pine tar.  I do not add jewelweed, but I do have a jewelweed soap for contact dermatitis. 

Pine tar
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s180...038b56e12058/7f4723a4634d3092dea4a625afa63cdb

extra condition PT
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s180...de59b60f86af/2ea7dd4af1f87056442c6367b08923a0

Regards,
Carol at Tygerheart


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## DeeAnna

Thanks for sharing, Carol!


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## jkevin

yes thank you just one question though what does for mean for the pine tar


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## DeeAnna

"...what does for mean for the pine tar ..."

Uh, I'm not following you -- what are you referring to, JK?


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## jkevin

I was reading carol's pine tar recipe and in the pine tar colum it says pine tar only no fa. Just wondering what that means a lot of abbreviations on the forum


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## DeeAnna

Oh, okay, now I get your question.

No fa = no fatty acids. 

This is basically telling you that pine tar does not saponify into soap. Pine tar does consume some lye, however, even if it doesn't turn into soap, so you need to include it as a "fat" in your recipe so the recipe calculator can figure the right amount of lye.


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## Twiggy

Does that kind of soap, to treat acne skin, MUST be drying? My sister has acne, but also sensitive skin, so I would like to make her something mild and caring low on CO/Babbasu. Or just tar is drying and there is no way around it?


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## jkevin

Ok got it thanks
 and that is probably why it is still soft after 6 weeks I think 20% pine tar 
 my other was 10% I think and its pretty hard at 6 weeks


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## DeeAnna

"...Or just tar is drying and there is no way around it? ..."

It has not been my experience that pine tar is drying to the skin, in and of itself. In my opinion, it is the soap recipe that has a greater effect on whether the skin is stripped of oils or not. My husband showers daily with 10% PT soap and I occasionally bathe with it. Neither of us experience unusual dryness from the soap -- no worse than the regular bath soaps that I make. The base recipe for my PT soap is low cleansing and high conditioning.

I also understand the "common wisdom" that an acne soap must be harsh and drying to be effective ... is wrong. 

"...it is still soft after 6 weeks I think 20% pine tar ..."

Yes, 20% PT will definitely make the soap softer than 10% PT. Design a base recipe that is higher in stearic and palmitic acids to ensure a relatively hard, long lasting bar that will play nice with pine tar. I routinely unmold and cut my 10% PT soap within 24 hours -- it is quite firm at that time and only gets better with time.


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## Sinful7

Totally agree with Deanna I haven't found it to be drying either. Think its more the recipe you use.


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## Twiggy

DeeAnna said:


> "...Or just tar is drying and there is no way around it? ..."
> 
> It has not been my experience that pine tar is drying to the skin, in and of itself. In my opinion, it is the soap recipe that has a greater effect on whether the skin is stripped of oils or not. My husband showers daily with 10% PT soap and I occasionally bathe with it. Neither of us experience unusual dryness from the soap -- no worse than the regular bath soaps that I make. The base recipe for my PT soap is low cleansing and high conditioning.
> 
> I also understand the "common wisdom" that an acne soap must be harsh and drying to be effective ... is wrong.



Thank you DeeAnna, that is exactly why I've asked, I know that the last thing that acne skin need is to being dried and irritated. That is why I wanted to know if the PT soap is drying by definition. My recipes are very mild, low cleansing and quite high in conditioning - all around 59-61. 

I also thought that, as some people reporting theirs skin to peel off on the beginning of treatment with the PT, but that mostly apply to rosacea treatment with PT soap. Did anyone noticed that?

I'm so excited to make such soap!!!!  I think I will go for lavender scent, or lavender and mint, or no scent at all - I need to check how the PT smells of its own


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## DeeAnna

"...I also thought that, as some people reporting theirs skin to peel off on the beginning of treatment with the PT, but that mostly apply to rosacea treatment with PT soap. Did anyone noticed that?..."

I have never heard about that, nor have I personally experienced this. A soap with a high cleansing value might be the culprit more than the PT. But I don't know everything there is to know about PT, so maybe it has that effect for some people. 

"...I think I will go for lavender scent, or lavender and mint, or no scent at all - I need to check how the PT smells of its own..."

If you've never smelled pine tar, then be aware it has the strong odor of burnt rubber or very smoky campfire, depending on the brand and your nose. Added scent needs to play well with that kind of distinct, strong aroma.

That said, if you're making this soap specifically for troubled skin, it may be best to stick with just the PT. Consider the soap to be a medicinal product and choose your ingredients accordingly. Any additives should provide therapeutic benefits that aid the PT to do its job, not just added for the sake of adding them.

It may just be me, but I don't think I'd care for mint in a soap intended for washing the irritated, delicate skin of my face.


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## dixiedragon

My pine tar soap is also no more drying than my regular soap. I use the same base recipe.

I like to add lavender EO to my pine tar soap. It doesn't cover the scent, but it works well with it and softens it just a little. And lavender EO is also good for skin problems. I have also used lavender, tea tree EO and patchouli together.


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## Twiggy

DeeAnna said:


> "...I also thought that, as some people reporting theirs skin to peel off on the beginning of treatment with the PT, but that mostly apply to rosacea treatment with PT soap. Did anyone noticed that?..."
> 
> I have never heard about that, nor have I personally experienced this. A soap with a high cleansing value might be the culprit more than the PT. But I don't know everything there is to know about PT, so maybe it has that effect for some people.
> 
> "...I think I will go for lavender scent, or lavender and mint, or no scent at all - I need to check how the PT smells of its own..."
> 
> If you've never smelled pine tar, then be aware it has the strong odor of burnt rubber or very smoky campfire, depending on the brand and your nose. Added scent needs to play well with that kind of distinct, strong aroma.
> 
> That said, if you're making this soap specifically for troubled skin, it may be best to stick with just the PT. Consider the soap to be a medicinal product and choose your ingredients accordingly. Any additives should provide therapeutic benefits that aid the PT to do its job, not just added for the sake of adding them.
> 
> It may just be me, but I don't think I'd care for mint in a soap intended for washing the irritated, delicate skin of my face.



I've read that lavender, pepper mint, tea tree EO are antibacterial, so that why I would go for them if at all for any scent. In all my soaps, ingredients are well thought out. About the smell, is what I've heard about it - strong burn like odor, well I will see myself soon.

Oh, I would not care at all if something helping with my conditions is smelling good or not, but I cannot speak for all, so I will think about the EO when I will get my PT 



dixiedragon said:


> My pine tar soap is also no more drying than my regular soap. I use the same base recipe.
> 
> I like to add lavender EO to my pine tar soap. It doesn't cover the scent, but it works well with it and softens it just a little. And lavender EO is also good for skin problems. I have also used lavender, tea tree EO and patchouli together.



That is what I heard about those EO, I would go for lavender too, as patchouli and tee tree are giving me a real big headache


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## scottief

I have been researching to make a pine tar soap. I heard that some people are concerned about the Creosote in pine tar. Is there a certain brand I should look for. I found one in a store tonight but it had no indictions if it had any Creosote in it. Can anyone let me know if I should be worried about this or can I buy any brand of Pine Tar and I'll be ok.

thanks for your help.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

You should struggle to find any PT with creosote any more!  It is banned as far as I know, so the biggest problem with PT is now done away with


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## Saponista

I had a look for pine tar today the horse section at tragos mills. There were tons of different hoof oils all containing 'stockholm tar' but there were no ingredients lists saying what else was in there too. Some had castor oil but no full ingredients list. Do people just use this sort of adulterated hoof oil or is it possible to find near pine tar?


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## AnnaO

Saponista said:


> I had a look for pine tar today the horse section at tragos mills. There were tons of different hoof oils all containing 'stockholm tar' but there were no ingredients lists saying what else was in there too. Some had castor oil but no full ingredients list. Do people just use this sort of adulterated hoof oil or is it possible to find near pine tar?



I understand the pine tar we need for soaping is the pure stuff, which is also called 'Stockholm Tar'. 

I recently bit the bullet and ordered this from an Amazon seller:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CF09ZXQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

(I only received mine from this seller last week, and I paid £5 plus £4 postage, so their price has increased since then).

The tin does not have an ingredients list, apart from a description which states _'An unadulterated natural antiseptic tar formed by the destructive distillation of the wood from the trees of the pine family'_. 
So from that, and its name being 'Stockholm Tar', I assume that it is pure 

I hunted high and low locally for pine tar for soaping for a good while, to no avail. 
Although the Wirral where I live is quite horsey I learned that the equestrian supply places here only stock the pine-tar-mixed-with-other-stuff hoof treatments.  

The nearest place I could actually purchase the pure stuff off the shelf and in person was at a farmers' supply shop out in Mold in North Wales, about 35 miles away from here. That was priced at IIRC £15 plus VAT for 1 litre. Factor in £10 petrol for the round trip and it worked out cheaper this time to get the Amazon stuff. If my soap is a success though, I shall stock up next time we are passing that way.

Besides being a hoof treatment, I have learned that Stockholm tar/pure pine tar is also used for wounds and to deter pecking in hens.... isn't soaping a fascinating voyage of discovery! 



Edit: I now realise that link is to a different seller and not the one I purchased from. My seller was cheaper, but now appears to have sold out 

Later edit: I have also realised that some of the 'Stockholm Tar' products may contain other substances added - I'm trying to find out which - see my post below


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## DeeAnna

Do people just use this sort of adulterated hoof oil or is it possible to find near pine tar?..."

Yes, it is possible to get pure pine tar. I do not use "hoof oil". Here are three brands that I know of. I've used the first two and I know the third is also reputable.

Bickmore Pine Tar: https://www.google.com/shopping/product/1187085285195842695
Auson "Kiln Burn" Pine Tar: http://www.noxudolusa.com/product/kiln-burn-pine-tar-liter/
Auson/Noxudol sells internationally -- they're a Swedish company. http://www.auson.se/sv
Farnam Pine Tar: https://www.google.com/shopping/product/7398247586516858491


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## AnnaO

*Pine Tar in the UK...*



DeeAnna said:


> Do people just use this sort of adulterated hoof oil or is it possible to find near pine tar?..."
> 
> Yes, it is possible to get pure pine tar. I do not use "hoof oil". Here are three brands that I know of. I've used the first two and I know the third is also reputable.
> 
> Bickmore Pine Tar: https://www.google.com/shopping/product/1187085285195842695
> Auson "Kiln Burn" Pine Tar: http://www.noxudolusa.com/product/kiln-burn-pine-tar-liter/
> Auson/Noxudol sells internationally -- they're a Swedish company. http://www.auson.se/sv
> Farnam Pine Tar: https://www.google.com/shopping/product/7398247586516858491



Thank you for those links DeeAnna 

I have been unable to find a UK supplier of the Bickmore and Farnam brands, perhaps they are not available over here?

The problem is, as Saponista noted, that the pine tar products here in the UK do not have the ingredients listed on the packaging  
So I have been busy doing a little homework which I hope will eventually prove helpful for us UK soapers 

The Swedish company from your links, 'Auson', have two UK suppliers listed on their website, one of which stocks their pine tar; they are called Timbersave and are located in Warrington:
http://www.timbersave.co.uk/index.p...ch&filter_name=pine tar&filter_category_id=64
I have emailed them asking them to please confirm which of their Auson brand pine tars is 100% pure.

Apart from the Auson products from that one supplier I've not as yet been able to find any other 'Pine Tar' available in the UK, apart from the 'Stockholm Tar' used for hoof treatment. Here's a list:
http://www.nextag.co.uk/stockholm-tar/compare-html#!

So the brands of 'Stockholm Tar' available in the UK are: 
Battles, 
Carr, Day & Martin (- they make Vanner & Prest Stockholm Hoof Tar), 
Equimims, 
Gold Label (- make 'thick' and also 'liquid' versions), and
Lincoln.
(This may not be a complete list but they are what I have found up to now).

I have emailed the manufacturers of the first four asking them if their Stockhom Tar is 100% pure or does it contain added ingredients.
I could not locate the manufacturer's contact details for the last one (Lincoln), so I have emailed a major supplier and asked them instead.

I'll update this thread as and when I get any replies.


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## scottief

I found the Farnam Pine Tar. I have found a store close to me that I am hopefully going to go see one day soon.  Here is a link to the products site. There is a label you can see but no ingredients on it.

http://www.farnamhorse.com/product.php?type=HORSE&mainkey=200005&pid=100175&key=300002#


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## AnnaO

The Farnam Pine Tar is 100% pine tar as DeeAnna pointed out 
That is a useful link for US soapers, thank you scottief 
Unfortunately though the Farnam Pine tar seems to be unavailable on the other side of the Atlantic in the UK where Saponista and I live


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## DeeAnna

You want either the Auson "Kiln Burn" product (Dalbrand Tratjara, #773) or the Auson "Genuine" pine tar (Akta Tratjara, #850). The Kiln Burn is a handmade old-fashioned pine tar. The Genuine is still pine tar, but I understand it is made with a more mass-produced method. Ingredients for both types from Auson's MSDS: tall oil pitch, rosin acids, neutral matters such as fatty alcohols and phytosterin and a small amount of terpenes.

The difference in price is 2 to 1 in the US. I use the Kiln Burn ... in for a penny, in for a pound. 

You do NOT want the Imprex product (Ljus Specialtjara, #845). It is a blended product that includes pine tar; it is not 100% pine tar. Ingredients from Auson's MSDS: Tall oil pitch: 60 - 80 %, Tall oil mixture: 10 - 20 %, Pine Tar: 5 - 15 %, Turpentine, vegetable: 2,5 %


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I use the Gold Label from Hunter (the first amazon link from AnnaO) and it is fine.  Even after it is shipped all the way here!


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## Dennis

Lots of questions about purity, creosote, etc.  I decided to write to the Horse Health Products company and ask some questions as that is the brand I use, available in lots of places in the USA.  I'll post their response.


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## Saponista

Thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone.


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## AnnaO

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I use the Gold Label from Hunter (the first amazon link from AnnaO) and it is fine.  Even after it is shipped all the way here!



Yes I used my 'Gold Label - Thick Tar' yesterday to make my first ever batch of pine tar soap  
I hp'd it in my slow cooker, and used my stick blender on it as it was taking a long time to trace. But then it was 55% lard and my high lard soaps have all been tardy tracers. It's nice and hard now, out of the cavity moulds, and curing. I might post pictures at a later time if I can get it to look remotely pretty.


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## Dennis

OK,  here's the response from Horse Health concerning my pine tar questions.



> Dear Mr. xxx,
> 
> Thank you for your email. We always appreciate hearing from our customers.
> 
> Pine Tar is 100% pine tar and does not contain creosotes. This Pine Tar is not pharmaceutical grade, and we do not recommend using it for soap.
> 
> If you have any other questions or concerns, please feel free to either reply to this email or contact us at 800-234-2269, Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., CST.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> 
> 
> Sara
> Pine Tar Product Specialist



To me, 100% is 100% and whether it is pharmaceutical grade doesn't bother me.  That's probably the difference between technical and food grade lye which doesn't bother me either.  Those who sell may or may not have concerns.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

To be honest, if a germ can live in 100% Pine Tar then it deserves to win...............................


----------



## Dennis

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> To be honest, if a germ can live in 100% Pine Tar then it deserves to win...............................



Agreed!  I did submit another email questioning the difference between pharmaceutical and whatever just 100% may be.  I suspect the pharmaceutical grade has a fewer rat hairs or roach feet in it.  I know you're all hanging by your fingernails just waiting to find out.  :-D


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

But now I am thinking - there was a thread about anti-bacterial soap, but Pine Tar is more Anti Fungal than Anti Bacterial, isn't it?


----------



## Saponista

Pharmaceutical grade will just be extra super duper tested for any possible other toxicological or microbiological contaminants. If you're selling then I might be a bit concerned but for personal use I would just go with it.


----------



## Dennis

Saponista said:


> Pharmaceutical grade will just be extra super duper tested for any possible other toxicological or microbiological contaminants. If you're selling then I might be a bit concerned but for personal use I would just go with it.



At $9 a quart I can put up with a few extra hairs and feet.


----------



## DeeAnna

Uh, the "kiln burn" stuff is about $40 per quart including shipping. Outrageously pricey compared to the Bickmore/Farnam stuff, but I really like the scent of this product (smoky campfire) compared with Bickmore PT (burning rubber). Since DH gets the lion's share of my PT soap, I figure he's worth it.


----------



## Dennis

DeeAnna said:


> Uh, the "kiln burn" stuff is about $40 per quart including shipping. Outrageously pricey compared to the Bickmore/Farnam stuff, but I really like the scent of this product (smoky campfire) compared with Bickmore PT (burning rubber). Since DH gets the lion's share of my PT soap, I figure he's worth it.



You're right.  I strolled into Tractor Supply and picked up a qt of Horse Health pine tar for $9 and change but that was at least a year ago.  Prices have changed and this link shows them to be varied.  Plenty of choices.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0030ECLOG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


----------



## Dennis

Here's the response received after asking Horse Health of the difference in theirs and pharmaceutical pine tar.



> Dear Mr. xxx,
> 
> Thank you for your email. We always appreciate hearing from our customers.
> 
> Our pine tar is 100% pine tar.  There are no fillers, no additional chemicals, it is just 100% pine tar.  I can not compare to other companies products, but our is not a prescription.
> 
> If you have further questions, please contact us back.
> 
> Gretchen
> Pine Tar Consumer & Professional Support



I guess any rat hairs or roach feet are not purposely added.  Good enough.


----------



## krunt

Hi Dennis,

My understanding of the difference between "ordinary" pine tar and "kiln burned" pine tar:
Ordinary pine tar is a byproduct of the burning of pine wood for the production of charcoal.
Kiln burned pine tar is produced through the burning of the stumps of a particular species of pine, for the sole purpose of creating a quality pine tar of high purity.

From all I have read, the kiln burned is what's recommended for use in body care products.  Obviously you are free to use whatever pine tar you want, but I just thought I would provide that information since the horse health person didn't actually answer your question


----------



## Twiggy

I've just purchased birch tar - cosmetic grade. Is not possible to get here pine tar different than hoof care product. So I will see how it goes  The birch tar has very close properties as pine tar from what I could read.


----------



## AnnaO

AnnaO said:


> I have been unable to find a UK supplier of the Bickmore and Farnam brands, perhaps they are not available over here?
> 
> The problem is, as Saponista noted, that the pine tar products here in the UK do not have the ingredients listed on the packaging
> So I have been busy doing a little homework which I hope will eventually prove helpful for us UK soapers
> 
> The Swedish company from your links, 'Auson', have two UK suppliers listed on their website, one of which stocks their pine tar; they are called Timbersave and are located in Warrington:
> http://www.timbersave.co.uk/index.p...ch&filter_name=pine tar&filter_category_id=64
> I have emailed them asking them to please confirm which of their Auson brand pine tars is 100% pure.
> 
> Apart from the Auson products from that one supplier I've not as yet been able to find any other 'Pine Tar' available in the UK, apart from the 'Stockholm Tar' used for hoof treatment. Here's a list:
> http://www.nextag.co.uk/stockholm-tar/compare-html#!
> 
> So the brands of 'Stockholm Tar' available in the UK are:
> Battles,
> Carr, Day & Martin (- they make Vanner & Prest Stockholm Hoof Tar),
> Equimims,
> Gold Label (- make 'thick' and also 'liquid' versions), and
> Lincoln.
> (This may not be a complete list but they are what I have found up to now).
> 
> I have emailed the manufacturers of the first four asking them if their Stockhom Tar is 100% pure or does it contain added ingredients.
> I could not locate the manufacturer's contact details for the last one (Lincoln), so I have emailed a major supplier and asked them instead.
> 
> I'll update this thread as and when I get any replies.



OK I'll post the replies I have received to date... I had told each that I was looking for a pure unadulterated pine tar for use in soap making...


----------



## AnnaO

EMAIL RECEIVED FROM *EQUIMIMS:*

From Equimims Ltd:

Hi xxxx,
It is pure thick pine tar.
Regards
David


----------



## AnnaO

EMAIL RECEIVED FROM *GOLD LABEL:*

Hi xxxx

No, our Stockholm Tar has other additives. We can provide pure Pine Tar. Need to know how much, then will give you a price.

Kind Regards

R P Newsholme

Roland Newsholme
General Manager
Gold Label UK
Stockcare Ltd
83 West Street
Leven
Beverley
East Yorks
HU17 5LR
Registered in England 1726981

...........................................
I have emailed Mr Newsholme back asking whether he is referring to the Thick Tar or the Liquid or both, and what the additives are, since I and other soapers on this forum have used these tars in their soaps. I'm awaiting his reply.


----------



## AnnaO

EMAIL RECEIVED FROM *CARR DAY MARTIN (VANNER & PREST)*

from Laura-Anne Rossell at CarrDayMartin:

Dear xxxx

Thank you for your recent email regarding Pine Tar. I can inform you that our product is in fact a compound, and is therefore unlikely to be suitable for your use.

 Kind regards

 Laura Rossell,

Technical Advisor


----------



## AnnaO

EMAIL FROM *LINCOLN*

Phill Evans (from Lincoln)  
To: xxxx

Hi,
I cannot recommend the use of this grade of tar in soap products.
Regards,

Phill Evans


----------



## AnnaO

EMAILS FROM *TIMBERSAVE* IN WARRINGTON, *STOCKIST OF AUSON PINE TAR PRODUCTS*;

Good morning xxxx

Thank you for your enquiry and about Auson pine tar products and for 
your application I would recommend our Kiln Burned Pine Tar. I have 
attached a Product Information Sheet for your attention. Please note 
that where it says not to apply directly to skin this refers to the 
product in it's raw state before it is used to produce shampoos, soaps, 
ointments etc.
I hope that this information is helpful but if you need anything else do 
not hesitate to contact me.

Best regards

Stephen Chatterley





*WAIT THERE'S MORE...*

Good morning xxxx,

Thank you for your interest in our Kiln Burned Pine Tar and the price 
for 1 Litre is £7.76 excluding vat. Carriage on that item would be 
£7.50 excluding vat. You would be more than welcome to collect the item 
as I keep a small amount in my office. If you decide to come over to 
Warrington contact me ( 0xxxxx xxxxxx ) and I will make certain that I am 
here. I would also be glad of the oppurtunity to talk to you about soap 
making with Kiln Burned Pine Tar as I have had several similar requests 
recently.

Hope to see you soon

Stephen Chatterley
Director
SLC (UK) Limited

*LINK TO THEIR WEBSITE:*
http://www.timbersave.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=98


----------



## AnnaO

So there you go.
I've not heard back from Battles yet.
I'm also wondering about the soap I made using the Gold Label stuff - although the word 'unadulterated' was on the label on the tin of the thick tar that I used - so I'll wait and see what I'm told when they get back to me.
I think in future I will use the Auson kiln burned stuff. The price is not bad at all, they are not far from me, and the chap sounds like he's getting the tea and biscuits out already!
Anna x


----------



## Saponista

Thanks for all the info Anna, really useful


----------



## AnnaO

It's been a pleasure, you're welcome


----------



## AnnaO

Oh I also did a search for a supplier of pharmaceutical grade - 'BP' - pine tar, and found this UK supplier: 
http://www.toocle.com/United_KingdomSuppliers/612885/Thick-Pine-Tar-BP-3002710.html

I have contacted them describing myself as a small hobby soaper and queried the availability and price of small quantities (~1 kg) and carriage costs etc. 
I daresay I'd likely not use them myself at this stage as I would expect the cost of Pine Tar BP to be beyond my meagre soaping budget, and besides I like the sound of the Auson stuff.
But some of us Brits who might move on at some stage to eventually sell our soaps may find the information useful.
I'll post their response when I receive it


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

That's very interesting indeed!  Thanks, Anna.  Looks like I will need to get my PT from a better supplier when I come to sell.  I'll still use up the last of the Gold Label, though.  Not sure what they'd put in to it that can survive a saponification


----------



## AnnaO

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> That's very interesting indeed!  Thanks, Anna.  Looks like I will need to get my PT from a better supplier when I come to sell.  I'll still use up the last of the Gold Label, though.  Not sure what they'd put in to it that can survive a saponification



Yes I wonder too!
I did find a link to a Materials Safety Data Sheet for the Gold Label Stockholm Tar.

It's from Aus though (I couldn't find an UK one), the product numbers don't match the UK numbers, so it may not be of much use, although it may offer some clues.


Edit: sorry the original link didn't work. I'll link to an image instead.


----------



## AnnaO

OK here's a clipped portion of the MSDS for Gold Label Stockholm Tar which shows the composition/information of ingredients:

The product may not be the same though as it is from Aus, and so like I said it may be of no use!
I'm going to sign off now, I think I may start dreaming of pine tar soon if I'm  not careful.
I'll post what the Gold Label chap says about additives etc as soon as I hear from him.



EDIT: I've removed the link, as it was not for the UK Gold Label brand. I'm starting to go cross eyed with my pine tar obsession... sorry!


----------



## Twiggy

AnnaO said:


> Oh I also did a search for a supplier of pharmaceutical grade - 'BP' - pine tar, and found this UK supplier:
> http://www.toocle.com/United_KingdomSuppliers/612885/Thick-Pine-Tar-BP-3002710.html
> 
> I have contacted them describing myself as a small hobby soaper and queried the availability and price of small quantities (~1 kg) and carriage costs etc.
> I daresay I'd likely not use them myself at this stage as I would expect the cost of Pine Tar BP to be beyond my meagre soaping budget, and besides I like the sound of the Auson stuff.
> But some of us Brits who might move on at some stage to eventually sell our soaps may find the information useful.
> I'll post their response when I receive it



I actually contacted today a drug company and ask about their pine tar, and the pharmaceutical grade cost, be ready... 13 euro per 50 ml in Poland (what I'm trying to point out in Poland such stuff is inexpensive). So I've said "No, thank you". Besides, we don't need a pharmaceutical grade, we are not selling drugs with it, I assume for soap cosmetic grade is enough.


----------



## AnnaO

This is just a quick update on my previous posts, but sadly I have no new information to share 



AnnaO said:


> Oh I also did a search for a supplier of pharmaceutical grade - 'BP' - pine tar, and found this UK supplier:
> http://www.toocle.com/United_KingdomSuppliers/612885/Thick-Pine-Tar-BP-3002710.html
> 
> I have contacted them describing myself as a small hobby soaper and queried the availability and price of small quantities (~1 kg) and carriage costs etc.
> I daresay I'd likely not use them myself at this stage as I would expect the cost of Pine Tar BP to be beyond my meagre soaping budget, and besides I like the sound of the Auson stuff.
> But some of us Brits who might move on at some stage to eventually sell our soaps may find the information useful.
> I'll post their response when I receive it



^^^^
Well these people have not responded.



AnnaO said:


> EMAIL RECEIVED FROM *GOLD LABEL:*
> 
> Hi xxxx
> 
> No, our Stockholm Tar has other additives. We can provide pure Pine Tar. Need to know how much, then will give you a price.
> 
> Kind Regards
> 
> R P Newsholme
> 
> Roland Newsholme
> General Manager
> Gold Label UK
> Stockcare Ltd
> 83 West Street
> Leven
> Beverley
> East Yorks
> HU17 5LR
> Registered in England 1726981
> 
> ...........................................
> I have emailed Mr Newsholme back asking whether he is referring to the Thick Tar or the Liquid or both, and what the additives are, since I and other soapers on this forum have used these tars in their soaps. I'm awaiting his reply.




And neither did Mr N.
Boo.
Never mind.
I'm tempted to assume though that my 'Thick Formula' Gold Label Stockholm Tar is likely unadulterated, since it says 'unadulterated' on the tin. (Although I do wonder about the meaning of the word 'formula' here..) 
While Gent.'s Gold Label 'Liquid' may perhaps be thinned with some kind of dilutant or solvent added, so as to make it pourable?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Yikes!  Thanks for the InfO, AnnaO.


----------



## Dennis

I thought I would join in the fun with the MSDS for Horse Health pine tar.  Hazard rating is 1, all others zero.  Still 9 bucks and change for a quart..  For what it's worth, here tis:

View attachment PineTarMSDS.pdf


----------



## Dennis

krunt said:


> Hi Dennis,
> 
> My understanding of the difference between "ordinary" pine tar and "kiln burned" pine tar:
> Ordinary pine tar is a byproduct of the burning of pine wood for the production of charcoal.
> Kiln burned pine tar is produced through the burning of the stumps of a particular species of pine, for the sole purpose of creating a quality pine tar of high purity.
> 
> From all I have read, the kiln burned is what's recommended for use in body care products.  Obviously you are free to use whatever pine tar you want, but I just thought I would provide that information since the horse health person didn't actually answer your question



Krunt,
Thank you.  I noticed they didn't directly answer my question and took that to mean it would be a negative response but they chose not to cast a negative of any kind for any reason on their product.  Just my opinion.  At any rate, I've used the pine tar for several batches of soap and love it in use.  There have been no ill effects to date so I will forge on and continue on my path as I am not selling soap and those who have used it are most happy.  


Wait a minute.  
What's that?
On my elbow!
It's a finger growing out of my elbow!  Granted it's little, but it's the second one this year!  :shock:
I always felt being forced to eat brussel sprouts as a kid would have ill effects and this proves it!  :roll:


----------



## Ktaggard

Hi. Very interesting thread. I just ordered some pine tar from amazon. Gonna give it a go.  
Are their any oils or butters to avoid when making a pine tar soap? Or can one use a favorite recipe and just add in pine tar at 10% to 20%. I love tallow and shea butter in all my soaps. Does anyone see a problem in using these with pine tar?
TIA.


----------



## seven

i've used my usual recipe for my pt batches, just reduced the coconut a bit since it's meant for sensitive skin ppl.


----------



## AnnaO

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Yikes!  Thanks for the InfO, AnnaO.



It's all OK! 

My OH emailed the distributors (- Westgate, the address is on the tins) about his concerns regarding ingredients in the Gold Label Pine Tar (- both Thick and Liquid), as he has used the stuff in the past, (in a non-soap-related way). He asked if there were thinners, or creosote, or such like, as he was concerned about potential toxicity issues, etc.
And Westgate, having contacted Mr N, forwarded his comments on to him, which are thus:

*"Both contain Thick Pine Tar. The Liquid is diluted with vegetable oil to make it thinner. There is nothing else in." *

Phew.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

One is very relieved.  Very relieved indeed.


----------



## AnnaO

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> One is very relieved.  Very relieved indeed.



Hmm.
I wonder what type of vegetable oil, and at what %...
_.....SoapCalc wants to know....._


----------



## Saponista

The horse hoof treatments I was looking at said they had castor oil as an ingredient.


----------



## shaan

I checked the recipe on soap calc. Cleansing number is high and conditioning low..will it not be stripping?


----------



## ocean_soul

Pine tar soap sounds so awesome...I have yet to try making any, though.  Would you believe I had a customer tell me they had a bad reaction to Pine tar soap once?  So strange!


----------



## Mellifera

Saponista said:


> The horse hoof treatments I was looking at said they had castor oil as an ingredient.




Makes sense since for shows, you want black, shiny hooves.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Shaan, you only add up to about 20% (I don't recall people going much higher than that) so it's okay.  

AnnaO, if we could get the nutritional information for the products, then we could work out how much of each oil is in there.  But I don't think anyone has considered nutritional information for PT, based on the smell!


----------



## Obsidian

Have any of you pine tar fans tried a neem soap instead? I like it considerably more then PT and there isn't the worries about toxicity.


----------



## seven

ocean_soul said:


> Pine tar soap sounds so awesome...I have yet to try making any, though.  Would you believe I had a customer tell me they had a bad reaction to Pine tar soap once?  So strange!



possible. also possible that they might be sensitive not to the pine tar itself, but probably to other ingredients in the soap.


----------



## Twiggy

Obsidian said:


> Have any of you pine tar fans tried a neem soap instead? I like it considerably more then PT and there isn't the worries about toxicity.



I was thinking about that oil too, but after little research I did I find out that it does smell like a dead body… I have to tell that puts me off a bit… Even to add a little to a PT soap. Big shame, as it has great properties….

I just got my PT, but cosmetic grade – the smell  Hah, I was not ready for it  But still for me smells more woodish burn that burn tires – good think I guess hahaha

And the cosmetic grade PT is recommended on max 5%, does anyone has any experience on that?


----------



## Obsidian

It doesn't smell like a dead body lol. Its more like rotten garlic and is quite strong when soaping with it but it fades with time. My neem bars are 4 month and they smell kinda like black tea now.
I really hate the smell of neem but it makes such a amazing soap that I deal with. I even use it at 5% in my shampoo bars.


----------



## Twiggy

Obsidian said:


> It doesn't smell like a dead body lol. Its more like rotten garlic and is quite strong when soaping with it but it fades with time. My neem bars are 4 month and they smell kinda like black tea now.
> I really hate the smell of neem but it makes such a amazing soap that I deal with. I even use it at 5% in my shampoo bars.



Oh really... That’s great! Then I will go for it! About 5% I was thinking too 
Thnak you Obsidian


----------



## Skatergirl46

Twiggy said:


> I was thinking about that oil too, but after little research I did I find out that it does smell like a dead body… I have to tell that puts me off a bit… Even to add a little to a PT soap. Big shame, as it has great properties….
> 
> I just got my PT, but cosmetic grade – the smell  Hah, I was not ready for it  But still for me smells more woodish burn that burn tires – good think I guess hahaha
> 
> And the cosmetic grade PT is recommended on max 5%, does anyone has any experience on that?



I have a batch that I made with 20% Neem oil. I used Lemongrass EO in it moderately strong and the EO covers the smell of the Neem very well. The soap smells great.


----------



## Mancmummy

Hi, this is my first post here even though I have been browsing tne forum for some time. After reading this thread I bought some Auson Kiln burned pine tar from timbersave (lovely company in Warrington Uk). I have made a batch of pine tar soap which turned out great - if a little darker than I expected! I was looking to get the soap safety assessed and contacted a company re the pine tar as it was the only product that I couldn't find on their approved list. The response I got back was a not one I expected, they said that after speaking to their chemist I would not be able to use the pine tar. I have seen many pine tar soaps for sale inthe UK and have made sure that the one that I used is 100% Pine Tar - it even says that it is often used for cosmetics and pharmaceuticals on the product information on the website. Surely I can get a pine tar soap recipe approved by the UK regulators. Has anyone had their pine tar soap assessed/approved. If so, can you please tell me which company you used?  Any help would be much appreciated. 

Sue x


----------



## AnnaO

Mancmummy said:


> Hi, this is my first post here even though I have been browsing tne forum for some time. After reading this thread I bought some Auson Kiln burned pine tar from timbersave (lovely company in Warrington Uk). I have made a batch of pine tar soap which turned out great - if a little darker than I expected! I was looking to get the soap safety assessed and contacted a company re the pine tar as it was the only product that I couldn't find on their approved list. The response I got back was a not one I expected, they said that after speaking to their chemist I would not be able to use the pine tar. I have seen many pine tar soaps for sale inthe UK and have made sure that the one that I used is 100% Pine Tar - it even says that it is often used for cosmetics and pharmaceuticals on the product information on the website. Surely I can get a pine tar soap recipe approved by the UK regulators. Has anyone had their pine tar soap assessed/approved. If so, can you please tell me which company you used?  Any help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Sue x



Hello Mancmummy, and welcome 
As another Brit soaper I wish I could help you here, but I'm just a hobby soaper currently with no intentions to sell. All the EU red tape, not to mention the cost, I find all a bit off-putting :crazy:

So I'll make it clear from the start that I don't have the slightest clue what I'm talking about here, I could be talking through my xxx, so please bear this in mind 

... my only suggestion would be to perhaps contact as many assessors as possible regarding the pine tar? That is assuming they would provide free advice in the first place - as I've never personally spoken to an assessor, I wouldn't know 

I'm sure I read somewhere a while back, I'm almost certain it wasn't this forum but elsewhere on the web (I really don't remember where now), that there seems to exist with some ingredients a sort of lack of consistency between assessors, where say one assessor would pass a specific recipe or ingredient, while another would not. I'm sure I read a discussion about it somewhere. I'm sorry I'm so vague here, I just recall reading it in passing while I was searching for something else. 
But whether or not this would apply in the case of pine tar I wouldn't like to say. And the information I read may be way out of date now, changing regulations may have made such subjective judgement by assessors impossible. 

Regarding your pine tar, did the chemist give a reason why they would not approve it? Soap I've seen on sale here in the UK (on Amazon) is 2.5% pharmaceutical grade pine tar, 'Pine Tar BP'. 
I emailed a company about pine tar BP, but have not received a reply, and from what Twiggy said in her post earlier, it's likely to be frighteningly expensive.


----------



## Mancmummy

Thanks AnnaO, I will contact a couple more assessors as the one I contacted gave no reason "I have checked with our chemist re the Pine Tar and this will not be allowed I'm afraid."  No more explanation 

My recipe includes 16% pine tar which worries me a bit now but most of the recipes I looked at said between 15 and 20% was acceptable. Not sure if Pine Tar Bp would make any difference to the percentage used. 

The Pine Tar that I used is this one http://www.timbersave.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=98 

It says "Kiln Burned Pine tar is a pure, natural product produced by the old fashioned kiln burning of pine tree stumps. This type of tar is characterized by high resin content, low content of pitch and high purity. Kiln Burned Pine Tar is a high performance tar especially for medical purposes but also for veterinary use as well as for wood and wood preservation. You can find Kiln Burned Pine Tar as an ingredient in shampoos, soaps, expectorants and in ointments against allergic rash, psoriasis and eczema, among others."

Lots more research to be done me thinks....I wanted to sell some of the soap at a craft fair but will have to either hold back or scrap the idea depending on what else I can find out.  Will be great if you hear back re the pine tar Bp but not pinning my hopes on it being in my budget. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply


----------



## Twiggy

Mancmummy said:


> Hi, this is my first post here even though I have been browsing tne forum for some time. After reading this thread I bought some Auson Kiln burned pine tar from timbersave (lovely company in Warrington Uk). I have made a batch of pine tar soap which turned out great - if a little darker than I expected! I was looking to get the soap safety assessed and contacted a company re the pine tar as it was the only product that I couldn't find on their approved list. The response I got back was a not one I expected, they said that after speaking to their chemist I would not be able to use the pine tar. I have seen many pine tar soaps for sale inthe UK and have made sure that the one that I used is 100% Pine Tar - it even says that it is often used for cosmetics and pharmaceuticals on the product information on the website. Surely I can get a pine tar soap recipe approved by the UK regulators. Has anyone had their pine tar soap assessed/approved. If so, can you please tell me which company you used?  Any help would be much appreciated.
> 
> Sue x



Hi Mancmummy  Does it say clearly on label or in the MSDS that is a cosmetic grade, or is it PT used for hors hoofs as for the main purpose? I imagine, that it may be not allowed, as PT used in animal care is not clean out from adverse substances, some of them r consider as cancerogenic, like the byproducts of burning out of the sap. I wonder if the PT soap is not possible to assess at all, or just with this kind of PT?

C n you PM me and let me know who did you speak with? Which assessor in UK?


----------



## AnnaO

Mancmummy said:


> Thanks AnnaO, I will contact a couple more assessors as the one I contacted gave no reason "I have checked with our chemist re the Pine Tar and this will not be allowed I'm afraid."  No more explanation
> 
> My recipe includes 16% pine tar which worries me a bit now but most of the recipes I looked at said between 15 and 20% was acceptable. Not sure if Pine Tar Bp would make any difference to the percentage used.
> 
> The Pine Tar that I used is this one http://www.timbersave.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=98
> 
> It says "Kiln Burned Pine tar is a pure, natural product produced by the old fashioned kiln burning of pine tree stumps. This type of tar is characterized by high resin content, low content of pitch and high purity. Kiln Burned Pine Tar is a high performance tar especially for medical purposes but also for veterinary use as well as for wood and wood preservation. You can find Kiln Burned Pine Tar as an ingredient in shampoos, soaps, expectorants and in ointments against allergic rash, psoriasis and eczema, among others."
> 
> Lots more research to be done me thinks....I wanted to sell some of the soap at a craft fair but will have to either hold back or scrap the idea depending on what else I can find out.  Will be great if you hear back re the pine tar Bp but not pinning my hopes on it being in my budget. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply



I used 15% in my recipe, and I love it, but I agree it may not be to everyone's taste, especially the pong, and the brown lather :shock:

So the chemist says _'this is not allowed'_... but neglects to say why... 
i wonder what the issue is then, is it the pine tar grade/source, or the percentage of pine tar in the recipe? How disappointing for them to be so unhelpful.

I'd like to wish you the best of luck in your quest though, and please do keep us posted


----------



## Mancmummy

I will PM you in a mo Twiggy, I habe emailed them back to ask if they will clarify why it can't be used. I also emailed another assessor and the company that I bought the pine tar from to see if they can shed any light. Will update the thread when/if I get responses. The tin is in swedish but I doubt that it will specifically say cosmetic grade and the MSDS sheet certainly doesn't (I only just located it). 

Anna, which type of Pine Tar did you use? I love the smell and feel of mine, a few friends have asked if they can try it but I am worried about letting them if I can't get it approved. I have read earlier on the thread that people have used pine tar that is not cosmetic grade with no ill effects, it would be such a shame to waste it if it is actually ok to use. I am thinking if I let anyone have some as a gift to make sure to tell them to stop using if they notice any adverse reaction and idt should be ok. 

I am gutted that it is so complicated but I know that public safety is at the root of it all. Fingers crossed I will have more info soon.


----------



## AnnaO

Mancmummy 
I used the Gold Label Thick Stockholm Tar - I've posted pics of the tin earlier in the thread. When that runs out I'll purchase the Auson stuff from Warrington because of the excellent reviews it gets on this forum.

Out of sheer curiosity I just did a search on ebay and found this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Natual-Pi...athBeauty_BathShowCons_RL&hash=item3ce115d4ba

The seller states that it is certified... so I wonder who their assessor is?
And what pine tar they used??
I think I'll message them and ask 
Anna (insomniac)


----------



## AnnaO

Well I have just sent a message to the ebay pine tar soap seller asking if she would be willing to share the name of her assessor, and why... I hope I have not breached some kind of soapers' etiquette by asking, I didn't even buy any pine tar soap from her. I would have been tempted though if I didn't already have a shelf full of the stuff... 

Edit: she may well not answer me, but if she does, I'll pm you Mancmummy


----------



## Shalisk

Those results are amazing. Maybe ill have to try to make one for the room mate some day ^.^ But ....not yet


----------



## Mancmummy

The eBay seller might have the answer AnnaO - hopefully she will be willing to share.  I bought some of the Stockholm Tar Liquid but will probably not use it as Im not sure what it has been diluted with.  Pretty sure its not creosote due to other posts on this thread :roll:

The lovely man from Timbersave in Warrington phoned me this morning and he is surprised that the assessors are not allowing it as an ingredient - I said I will let hm know if I hear any more.

Fingers crossed this stumbling block can be overcome


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Mancmummy said:


> The eBay seller might have the answer AnnaO - hopefully she will be willing to share. I bought some of the Stockholm Tar Liquid but will probably not use it as Im not sure what it has been diluted with. Pretty sure its not creosote due to other posts on this thread :roll:
> 
> The lovely man from Timbersave in Warrington phoned me this morning and he is surprised that the assessors are not allowing it as an ingredient - I said I will let hm know if I hear any more.
> 
> Fingers crossed this stumbling block can be overcome


 
They (the supplier) might have a product sheet that the assesor can use.  If the supplier is saying that it is safe, they will have something to back this up.


----------



## DeeAnna

I seem to remember a recent comment by Genny (I believe) that coal tar has been banned as a UK ingredient and that pine tar was in the process of being reviewed and possibly banned as well. That may be why assessors are not keen on approving new products that contain pine tar, but existing products might still be allowed to be sold.

Remember too that what is "safe" in one country or state may not be in another. In the US, California is notable for banning products that are perfectly legal to sell in most other US states.

I'm not any kind of expert on this; just passing on an interesting tidbit that lodged in my memory.


----------



## Twiggy

Mancmummy said:


> I will PM you in a mo Twiggy, I habe emailed them back to ask if they will clarify why it can't be used. I also emailed another assessor and the company that I bought the pine tar from to see if they can shed any light. Will update the thread when/if I get responses. The tin is in swedish but I doubt that it will specifically say cosmetic grade and the MSDS sheet certainly doesn't (I only just located it).



I’m looking forward to hear how the things are going with that issue in UK - fingers crossed!!




DeeAnna said:


> I seem to remember a recent comment by Genny (I believe) that coal tar has been banned as a UK ingredient and that pine tar was in the process of being reviewed and possibly banned as well. That may be why assessors are not keen on approving new products that contain pine tar, but existing products might still be allowed to be sold.



Seriously I don’t get it, and it makes me mad, that more and more natural treatments are out of our (small manufactures) range – like PT! But big concerns will be free to produce - @#$%^&&&&!!!!! :evil:

Today I’ve made my first PT soap – well not exactly pine tar – I got birch tar, is use the same way and has very similar properties. I’ve add some rosemary EO and lavender EO. OMG that smell… :thumbdown: I had to remove it from my curing room and all bars landed outside on a log rack!  Will it go away a bit so I can keep it at home? Now I’m really concerned if I will be able to use it at all – the smell make mi sick :roll:


----------



## Mancmummy

A quick update as I have been away at a scout camp for the weekend and only just back....1500 scouts and lots of mud and rain!!

The only response that I have found waiting in my inbox so far is from the original assessor saying that his chemist is away at the minute but he has left a message asking him to let him know exactly what the problem is. 

I will be back here with his response when I get it. Now for a nice brew and feet up


----------



## Mancmummy

This from Cosmeticsafetyassessment.com:

"Thank you for getting in touch.  Unfortunately we are unable to assess any products which contain wood tars as they have not been classed as safe by the SCC/SCCNFP.

Sorry we couldn't help on this occasion."

Looks like Pine Tar will be for personal use only, I am worrying about safety implications now though


----------



## reinbeau

So many use pine tar soaps and have great experiences with it - I wouldn't let a government bureaucrat deter me from using it.


----------



## Twiggy

Mancmummy said:


> This from Cosmeticsafetyassessment.com:
> 
> "Thank you for getting in touch.  Unfortunately we are unable to assess any products which contain wood tars as they have not been classed as safe by the SCC/SCCNFP.
> 
> Sorry we couldn't help on this occasion."
> 
> Looks like Pine Tar will be for personal use only, I am worrying about safety implications now though




OMG, that's so bad! :sad:


----------



## Sinful7

reinbeau said:


> So many use pine tar soaps and have great experiences with it - I wouldn't let a government bureaucrat deter me from using it.



Exactly my thoughts! Think of all the other homeopathic remedies that aren't approved by government either. Sorry I don't trust big pharmacy and corporate government to decide what works. They say store bought soaps are "safe" but we all know what can be found in some of them. Use your personal experience and common sense.


----------



## AnnaO

AnnaO said:


> Mancmummy
> I used the Gold Label Thick Stockholm Tar - I've posted pics of the tin earlier in the thread. When that runs out I'll purchase the Auson stuff from Warrington because of the excellent reviews it gets on this forum.
> 
> Out of sheer curiosity I just did a search on ebay and found this:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Natual-Pi...athBeauty_BathShowCons_RL&hash=item3ce115d4ba
> 
> The seller states that it is certified... so I wonder who their assessor is?
> And what pine tar they used??
> I think I'll message them and ask
> Anna (insomniac)



I haven't had a reply from this seller 




Mancmummy said:


> This from Cosmeticsafetyassessment.com:
> 
> "Thank you for getting in touch.  Unfortunately we are unable to assess any products which contain wood tars as they have not been classed as safe by the SCC/SCCNFP.
> 
> Sorry we couldn't help on this occasion."
> 
> Looks like Pine Tar will be for personal use only, I am worrying about safety implications now though



That's so very disappointing.
I wonder when it was that the SCC/SCCNFP changed their classification from 'safe' to 'not classed as safe'?


----------



## Mancmummy

A response from the original assessor:

"I have asked our chemist about this again and his response was as follows:

"There's an SCCS opinion document to say that the safety of pine tar can't be established so it's definitely a no" SCCS is a European Body more properly called the Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety and you can find further details here:

http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/consumer_safety/index_en.htm

Trust this helps,"

Not sure when or why the rules changed. I will keep mine as a personal stash to share with friends and family. It is a bit confusing that some are claiming to have had theire Pine Tar soaps UK cetified and it is openly being sold on etsy and ebay. 

I think that I conclude my investigation lol, I will keep an eye on the thread in case the rules change and someone updates here. Thanks for all your helpful replies x


----------



## scottief

Made our first pine tar soap last night. Its still in the mold. Im hoping it will be hard enough tomorrow to take out and cut. How long from your experience does it take for this soap to harden up. Ive read different things from everyone.


----------



## Sinful7

Mine was good within 24 hours to unmold


----------



## newbie

I could unmold mine within 24 hours but it probably depends on your recipe. I intentionally made a hard recipe because of the effects of the PT.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Mancmummy said:


> A response from the original assessor:
> 
> "I have asked our chemist about this again and his response was as follows:
> 
> "There's an SCCS opinion document to say that the safety of pine tar can't be established so it's definitely a no" SCCS is a European Body more properly called the Scientific Committee on Consumer Safety and you can find further details here:
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/consumer_safety/index_en.htm
> 
> Trust this helps,"
> 
> Not sure when or why the rules changed. I will keep mine as a personal stash to share with friends and family. It is a bit confusing that some are claiming to have had theire Pine Tar soaps UK cetified and it is openly being sold on etsy and ebay.
> 
> I think that I conclude my investigation lol, I will keep an eye on the thread in case the rules change and someone updates here. Thanks for all your helpful replies x



Interestingly enough, on that link that they supplied you with, I did a search for Pine Tar and it led me (the first result) to this document.

http://ec.europa.eu/health/archive/ph_risk/committees/sccp/documents/out123cm_en.pdf

I did a search in this pdf and on page 300 it lists it with an INCI and all that jazz.....................


----------



## AnnaO

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Interestingly enough, on that link that they supplied you with, I did a search for Pine Tar and it led me (the first result) to this document.
> 
> http://ec.europa.eu/health/archive/ph_risk/committees/sccp/documents/out123cm_en.pdf
> 
> I did a search in this pdf and on page 300 it lists it with an INCI and all that jazz.....................



Goodness, so it is! Thank you for pointing that out.
Although I'm more confused than ever now :crazy:

Here's a clip from page 300. I've included all four 'pine' products; the 'tar' I assume to be the 3rd one down:





Edit: the date at the top of the document is 2000, I am wondering if regulations may have changed since then...


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

But then it doesn't appear in the database search!  It's so infuriating.  Wonderful thing with the EU is the lack of consistency from one person you speak with to the next - how are we supposed to get anything done?


----------



## AnnaO

Yes decisions seem to be so very subjective and seemingly based on esoteric information unavailable to mere mortals such as ourselves... maddening!

I did another search, and found this:

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cosmetics/cosing/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.details_v2&id=59487

Which links to this:
http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/sccp/documents/out_203.pdf


----------



## AnnaO

Here's the last paragraph of the second link above - "OPINION OF THE SCIENTIFIC COMMITTEE ON COSMETIC PRODUCTS AND NON-FOOD PRODUCTS INTENDED FOR CONSUMERS CONCERNING WOOD TARS AND WOOD TAR PREPARATIONS"

_"SCCNFP is of the opinion that wood tar and wood tar preparations do pose a health risk when used in cosmetic products.
Wood tar and wood tar preparations contain polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons which are genotoxic carcinogens. Wood tar preparations have been found to induce both benign and malignant skin tumours in mouse skin and to form DNA adduct in human skin. The products may represent risk of skin cancer."_

Which on the face of it seems disturbing. 
But the document concerns itself with wood tar _preparations_, which include the creasotes too?
My head is spinning. I hope that someone brainier than I can make sense of all of this


----------



## DeeAnna

Yep, what the others say. The time to harden up enough to unmold depends on your basic soap recipe, which is why you see all kinds of conflicting stories. PT will add softness to a soap, so you need to plan ahead and formulate the basic recipe to account for that. Here's hoping your batch will be plenty firm!


----------



## DiddlyO

I've just made my first batch of pine tar soap (used Hawthorne brand pine tar) and I think I've gone against all recommendations.... 20% pine tar, 80% olive oil at 10% SF. It's in individual moulds, so I won't have to cut it but I will probably freeze them to get them out of the moulds.

I will let it cure for a good long time, but I'm so looking forward to using it!


----------



## scottief

My pine tar soap has been curing for 2 weeks now and its still very soft. So soft that I can push on it lightly and its leaving imprints. I hope it hardens up.


----------



## soapshark2013

*soapshark13*

I too, am new to this forum, but have been following the PT debate...I'm rather new to soaping, is PT hard to make?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

soapshark2013 said:


> I too, am new to this forum, but have been following the PT debate...I'm rather new to soaping, is PT hard to make?


 
It can be - it is not an easy oil to play with, in that it goes from light trace to set solid very quickly.

If you are familiar with the soaping process and used to how to get a certain recipe to trace, how long it takes and so on, then I would consider doing it.

That is the only hard thing.  You can use a fairly normal recipe and just lower other oils to allow for (a good figure) 10% Pine Tar.  Either hot or cold process will work - although I have only ever done it cold process myself.

There are some things to think on such as soaping cooler (room temperature) and not reducing the water too much so that you have more time to get it in to moulds.

How does that fit in with your situation?


----------



## NancyCrt

*Jewelweed Soap for Acne*



Sinful7 said:


> I LOVE jewel weed! I use jewelweed extract in most of my acne soaps. I've also used the fresh plants. Wonderful!



Sinful 7, do you make your jewelweed extract?   I have infused oil with jewelweed, and ground the plant up with distilled water (currently in freezer) and I have fresh jewelweed.   But I have never made extract.   How do you make your jewelweed extract?   

I want to make this for my 13 yr old grandson and 15 yr old granddaughter.

Thanks so much.


----------



## DeeAnna

Jewelweed threads:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36375
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=11693
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=9617

For more, go to Google and use this search term: jewelweed soap site:soapmakingforum.com


----------



## Ellacho

DeeAnna said:


> Jewelweed threads:
> 
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=36375
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=11693
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=9617
> 
> For more, go to Google and use this search term: jewelweed soap site:soapmakingforum.com



Thank you DeeAnna for the threads! You are the best !


----------



## CanaDawn

Mellifera said:


> Makes sense since for shows, you want black, shiny hooves.



That's hoof polish, a whole different product entirely.  Pine tar is more like cuticle cream.


----------



## soapshark2013

*PT debate*

Thank you for your response Efficacious Gentleman, but WOW is all I can say...I have been soaping for just about one yr now...have sold some..but still feel very inadequate when it comes to altering recipes...am considering taking an online class since I haven't been able to find any here in Florida...I did come across a PT recipe, so am considering making this one just to see how it goes...am nervous though, but really enjoy this soapmaking process...so will see this through....


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

A great place to learn in on the fourm!  Post a recipe idea there and get some feedback, tips and so on.  It really helps the learning process.


----------



## soapshark2013

*pine tar recipe*

I don't understand most of the terminology used, what is SF, FA, mean.  the soapcalc used this FA when I typed in pine tar....no clue. I can read a recipe, put it together, can't create a recipe, because I don't know the theory behind all this chemistry...


----------



## Corinne

I had no idea pine ta could help so much... both of my sisters have bad face and back skin problems so I will definitely get them to try it out! Thanks for the pics! Your niece looks really wonderful!


----------



## DeeAnna

"...I can read a recipe, put it together, can't create a recipe, because I don't know the theory behind all this chemistry..."

Well, hmmm, it's time to go to school, eh???

First off, there is an acronym and abbreviation thread right in this forum: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=32055

Also SF = superfat. FA = fatty acid.

Miller Soap is a free internet resource that is pretty sensible and factual: http://millersoap.com/

Another source of good information is Soapcalc http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp Be sure to check out the resources at the top of this webpage -- it's pretty clear you've missed reading the background info that is readily available on this website.

Anne Watson's book Smart Soapmaking gives a basic chemistry explanation of soap making and a brief intro into soap recipe formulation:  http://www.annelwatson.com/soapmaking/  Buy: http://amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0938497421/simpleproduction

For a more rigorous coverage of soap making chemistry, I recommend Kevin Dunn's book Scientific Soapmaking: http://cavemanchemistry.com/scisoap/index.html

Going past even the level of Dunn's book, one could go on to read articles and books about industrial soap making technology and chemistry, but most people don't make it to Dunn's book, even very good and highly respected handcrafted soapers. Obviously, these resources are really not necessary to formulate a good soap recipe.


----------



## Jaccart789

So incredible! I was recently thinking about making pine tar soap. When I researched it a couple of weeks ago I read or watched a video that stated to avoid certain types because it could be carcinogenic. Do you know what types to avoid or anyone on here know which ones are safe to use in soap making?


----------



## Dorymae

As I understand it you want pine tar without creosote.  However others have stated that creosote is banned in most places now so it shouldn't be a problem to find pine tar without it.


----------



## shaan

Hi! I tried to find pine tar,but could not get it..my father is in forest department.. he got the gum extracted by pine tree..its thick white in color,and smells like turpentine oil..can it be used in place of pine tar?


----------



## DeeAnna

"...can it be used in place of pine tar? ..."

Noooo. Pine tar is pine tar. It is not gum, turpentine, resin, rosin, colophony, or whatever. All of these products are created from the sap of pine or other coniferous or deciduous trees ... but pine tar is pine tar. It is the thick, tar-like liquid collected from the destructive pyrolysis of pine wood. (Pyrolysis is the process of heating a material in the absence of oxygen.)


----------



## TheCleanFighter

I picked up a can of from Tractor Supply and have a few questions about using it. 

Should the can be heated in a hot water bath to make the oil less viscous for easier pouring and handling? 

How do you blend it with other oils and when adding lye? I thought I saw someone say that it's not stick-blender compatible. 

Can Pine Tar soap be cooked in hot process?

And what does the annotation in Soap Calc mean? It says "lye calc only, no FA" 

Thanks!


----------



## shaan

Ok...that was quite scientific.. got it!


----------



## Obsidian

TheCleanFighter said:


> Should the can be heated in a hot water bath to make the oil less viscous for easier pouring and handling?



I prefer to scoop it out while its still thick. I use a plastic spoon and disposable cup to measure it. Then I add it to enough warm OO to thin it out and make it pourable. Add at thin trace and mix in by hand, you can try a SB but expect it to thicken in about 5 seconds.

You can HP it, mix into the oil and blend well before adding the lye.


----------



## DeeAnna

* Should the can be heated in a hot water bath to make the oil less viscous for easier pouring and handling?

Sure, if you want. You don't have to.

* How do you blend it with other oils and when adding lye? I thought I saw someone say that it's not stick-blender compatible.

You can stick blend the pine tar into the oils if you want, but after lye meets pine tar, I very strongly recommend hand stirring only. Pine tar causes the soap batter to come to trace very quickly, so don't give it even more encouragement by using a stick blender.

* Can Pine Tar soap be cooked in hot process?

Yes. 

* And what does the annotation in Soap Calc mean? It says "lye calc only, no FA"

Pine tar consumes some lye so it needs to be included as an ingredient in the soap recipe so you use the right amount of lye. Pine tar does not have any fatty acids (FA), however, so it doesn't actually make soap.


----------



## KristaY

After reading through this very informative thread, other threads and other online sources, I've decided to give it a go. I developed my recipe based on inspiration from David Fisher (about.com) and the oils I have on hand. Sinful 7, the pics of your beautiful niece are the biggest inspiration as I also have family members that suffer from a bad complexion. Here's my recipe:

28% Lard
28% OO
17% CO
12% Sunflower
15% Pine Tar
5% SF

I thought I would add Tea Tree EO for the benefits it will bring to the soap. The smell of the tar itself doesn't really bother me so if you think it will not be affected by the tea tree, I won't worry about it. I'm on the fence about the % of PT. Should I leave it at 15% or decrease to 10%? I was able to find PT today at our local Tractor Supply store so I've attached a pic. The label says "Light Pine Tar 100%". Does the brand of PT look safe and does the recipe look good as a bar for problematic skin?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## dillsandwitch

Anyone know where I can get Pine Tar locally In Australia and if so what brand would it be?. TIA


----------



## KristaY

dillsandwitch said:


> Anyone know where I can get Pine Tar locally In Australia and if so what brand would it be?. TIA


 
 I don't know specifically where you'd find it in your area but I found this in the equine section of a feed type store. Maybe look where people buy products for their horses and hopefully you'll find it. This was in the section that has all the products for horses hooves. Good luck, dillsandwitch!


----------



## Dorymae

Yes that is the stuff. Also tea tree blends very well with the scent of pine tar IMHO.


----------



## KristaY

Dorymae said:


> Yes that is the stuff. Also tea tree blends very well with the scent of pine tar IMHO.



 Thanks Dorymae! I made it a few hours ago. I actually like the smell of pine tar, weird! My sister and husband like it too so maybe we have goofy noses in my family, lol. I also added the tea tree. It's in gel phase now so I'll see how comes out. :grin:


----------



## PuddinAndPeanuts

Quick question....  Since you can't make medical claims in the U.S. when selling soap, how could you legally educate the consumer that it's for acne prone skin?


----------



## Claudia

dillsandwitch said:


> Anyone know where I can get Pine Tar locally In Australia and if so what brand would it be?. TIA



I'm in Australia too. I did some research yesterday and ended up writing to Chemark, who say they're the sole Australian agent for genuine Swedish Stockholm Tar. They're wholesalers so they don't sell in small amounts but this is the reply I got from them;

_Hi Claudia,

 Our minimum quantity is 200kg but you can buy smaller quantities at most Horseland stores in either the Equinade or Pharmachem brands.  Make sure you buy the genuine Stockholm Tar products as some other products are blended with linseed oil or neatsfoot oil etc.

 Let me know if you need any further help,

 Kind regards

 David Parker_

Edit: I just ordered some from here. They don't charge postage within Australia


----------



## DeeAnna

"...Since you can't make medical claims in the U.S. when selling soap, how could you legally educate the consumer that it's for acne prone skin? ..."

You can't. Pure 'n simple. It's soap that contains pine tar as an ingredient. That's all you can legally claim.


----------



## PuddinAndPeanuts

Thanks DeeAnna.  That's kind of what I figured, but thought it was worth asking.


----------



## DiddlyO

I'm in aus too - I just bought some on eBay. Hawthorne brand, I think it was 900g for around $30


----------



## dillsandwitch

Claudia said:


> I just ordered some from here. They don't charge postage within Australia



Thanks for the link  I have just ordered some too. Cant wait to try this one out. I wonder if it will help with my brothers rosacea and my BF's dermatitis.


----------



## jade-15

Claudia said:


> Edit: I just ordered some from here. They don't charge postage within Australia



Thanks Claudia!!


----------



## Claudia

dillsandwitch said:


> Thanks for the link  I have just ordered some too. Cant wait to try this one out. I wonder if it will help with my brothers rosacea and my BF's dermatitis.



You're welcome  I'm looking forward to seeing if it helps my husband's excema.


----------



## Claudia

jade-15 said:


> Thanks Claudia!!



No worries Jade


----------



## Claudia

My pine tar arrived today, hooray! It smells great, like a campfire that's just been extinguished.


----------



## DiddlyO

Just wondering if anyone has done a salt soap with pine tar?


----------



## dillsandwitch

Got my pine tar in the mail today. Man that stuff reeks :S I dunno if i wanna put that in soap at all. YUCK!!!! 

Does the smell diminish when in the soap? 

also is 15% PT, 15% CO, 35% palm 35% OO a decent recipe for this if I decide to go ahead with it? 

TIA


----------



## DeeAnna

"...Just wondering if anyone has done a salt soap with pine tar? ..."

I haven't. Why don't you try it yourself? Just be ready to pour; PT + salt is going to thicken up really fast.

"...Does the smell diminish when in the soap?..."

It gets less intense with cure, but the smoky/burnt odor does not disappear. It will be a key scent in this soap. 

"...also is 15% PT, 15% CO, 35% palm 35% OO a decent recipe..."

In the spirit of teaching a person to fish -- What do YOU think? What superfat do you intend to use? How much water will be in the recipe? Will you add fragrance or other additives? Can you offer any other thoughts about the composition of this particular recipe? What do the soapcalc numbers tell you about the proportions of these fats? Have you soaped with it? Does it come to trace quickly for you as a plain soap? Does the base recipe without pine tar make a soap that is hard and long lived ? Does it make a soap that you like? 

PT won't improve a bad soap, so if this recipe doesn't work well for you when made without PT, it won't work any better as a PT soap. 

PT will make soap softer especially as you increase the PT above 5% based on oil weight, so the base soap recipe needs to be fairly hard to begin with to avoid trouble with unmolding and cutting. 

PT also causes the soap batter to heat up and firm up fast, so the specific fragrance and other additives you choose should not make the soap come to trace any quicker.


----------



## DiddlyO

I haven't. Why don't you try it yourself? Just be ready to pour; PT + salt is going to thicken up really fast.


O my goodness yes. I think I would have to make a single bar in an individual mould...


----------



## seven

DeeAnna is right, having a 'hard recipe' helps. my PT soap is high in palm, and i can unmold it within the 24 hour period, just like my other soaps. i am using 10% PT.

as for adding salt, i haven't done it. so far, i see no point in it. those who bought my PT soaps are people with skin problems, thus i'd like to make the soap as simple as possible. at first, i thought about adding additives into it, like oatmeal or aloe vera, but finally settled on a simple PT soap. so, my PT soap is just oils, water, lye, and PT.


----------



## DeeAnna

I'd have to say that the folks I've talked to who are looking for pine tar soap are into it for the pine tar ... just the pine tar ... and nothing but the pine tar.


----------



## lpstephy85

DeeAnna said:


> I'd have to say that the folks I've talked to who are looking for pine tar soap are into it for the pine tar ... just the pine tar ... and nothing but the pine tar.




So help me soap gods! Sorry, had to do it !!!!!


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## dillsandwitch

I have so far only made 2 batches of soap. both were 80% OO and 20% CO.   So far so good on them. they are getting harder everyday and from my  test bits they lather and wash pretty good. 

I got my palm oil and castor oil in the post today. YAY. 

Ive run some numbers in soap calc and i think i have a decent recipe as  far as the numbers go. I was planning to add some lavender EO to the  lot. Heres what I came up with. Any feedback is welcome.


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## soapshark2013

*99% rubbing alcohol*

has anyone used the alcohol to spritz on the tops of soap and is the 99% the right strength?  seems I read this somewhere, but I'm having difficulty finding the product...only found 91%,is the same? thanks in advance...


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## DeeAnna

Dills ... Your recipe looks good. Nice work!

I'm picking nits here ... so please take my comments with a grain of salt. I'd happily make your recipe as-is. Seriously.

Your recipe will make a fairly cleansing soap that may not last quite as long as you might like. If you want a longer lasting soap that is still physically hard, but a bit milder to the skin, you could reduce the coconut oil and the olive a bit and increase the palm. Try to get the palmitic + stearic somewhere between 25-30 as well as keep the hardness in the upper 30s to 40 range. I'd leave the castor at 5%. 

I like your choice of fats -- classic and effective. This blend will make a nice rich lather that will feel good on the skin. The pine tar seems to increase lather, so if you tweak the recipe and lose a few points on the "bubbly" and/or "creamy" scores, not to worry. By lowering the coconut, the bubbly score will go down, but that shouldn't be a real problem in the real-life soap.


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## dillsandwitch

Thanks DeeAnna    Being so new at this I dont want to be going and wasting oils and such if the recipe I use isn't a decent one, if you get my meaning there. I really appreciate the help you have given me here. I think I will leave the recipe as is for now and see how it all goes. Tweaking can always come later after I feel more confidant with things.

Hopefully I will get some time to try this during the week. Now if anyone could help me with getting more free time that would be the ticket. hahahahaha.


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## reinbeau

My pine tar is on the way.  Going off the posts above with DeeAnna's advice about the stearic numbers, I came up with this one, I'm hoping it'll work up well.

Coconut Oil 20%
Castor Oil 5%
Olive Oil 30%
Kokum Butter 35%
Pine Tar, 10%

The numbers look good in SoapCalc, let's see how it translates into real life! 

Hardness 42
Cleansing 13
Conditioning 44
Bubbly 18
Creamy 33
Iodine 44
INS 142


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## DeeAnna

Ann -- That's pretty close, as far as the numbers go, to the recipe I use for PT soap. I use a 33% lye solution concentration and just plain water. The soap is firm enough to gently unmold 12-18 hours after pouring. I let the loaf air out in the open for another 6-12 hours before cutting so the outside is a wee bit firmer. The cured soap is mild to the skin, lathers well, and seems to last a goodly while. I also use 10% PT. I hope you like how it turns out!


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## reinbeau

DeeAnna, what do you think about what I'm hearing, that to be effective, the pine tar needs to be 20%.  I'm thinking that's hooey, but I wanted a more expert opinion on it - if you would be so kind


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## DeeAnna

Ann --

Little research has been done on the efficacy of pine tar, but the studies I have uncovered showed PT had little or no effect on helping skin problems. That said, there are decades of anecdotal stories that say PT does have some benefit for some skin issues.

"Grandpa's" pine tar soap gets glowing reviews on Amazon, but I am pretty sure it has a low % of PT. The makers of this particular product don't disclose the exact amount but my opinion is that it's under 5%. The color of the soap is telling, at least in my opinion. "Grandpa's" is a honey color, not a dark brown or near black color like most handcrafted PT soaps with 10% or more PT. 

So is the placebo effect alive and well? Or is there something to it? I really don't know.

What I can say is that if a PT soap is truly going to be helpful for a skin condition, then ~how~ one uses the soap might be just as effective as the % of PT in the soap. If you lather up and rinse off, as most people use soap in the bath, there will be very little time for the PT to have any effect, good or bad. If you lather up and let the suds stay on the skin for some time, then a soap with even a low % of PT might have some beneficial effect. 

I make soap with 10% PT, but mainly because my husband likes the smell. He uses PT soap nearly every day. I'm not so fond of the odor, but I have used the soap myself on occasion. I can't say I see any difference on his skin or mine, good or bad, but we also don't have any of the skin troubles that PT is supposed to help.

I would have to say I'm open-mindedly skeptical about the benefits of PT soap.  :think: That's rather a mixed metaphor, but it's the best way to describe where I stand (or not!) on pine tar in soap.


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## reinbeau

Well, that's kinda how I feel about most of these additives, but the placebo effect seems to sell soap - and other concoctions   Ok, I'm not going to go with the 'firm believers', I'm going to go with the recipe!


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## DeeAnna

In the old soapmaking books from the mid 1800s through the early 1900s, there are often recipes for medicinal soaps. Some of the medicinal ingredients included mercury and arsenic (yikes!), zinc, salicylic acid, thymol, camphor, bromine, coal tar, pine tar, turpentine, sulfur, phenol (carbolic acid), peroxide, witch hazel, iodine, formaldehyde, tannin, etc. 

Bear in mind that many of these medicinal soaps were used in the days when germ theory was unknown or in its infancy, and there were few if any antibiotics available. Formaldehyde, phenol, and iodine were harsh disinfectants that were the best option of the day. These chemicals and heavy metals like mercury deserve to be retired from common use now that we have safer, milder, and effective alternatives.

One author of the day noted:

"...Soap is often used for the conveyance of various medicants, antiseptics or other material presumably beneficial for treatment of skin diseases. While soap is an ideal medium for the carrying of such materials, it is an unfortunate condition that when incorporated with the soap, all but a very few of the numerous substances thus employed lose their medicinal properties and effectiveness for curing skin disorders, as well as any antiseptic value the substance may have. 

"Soap is of such a nature chemically that many of the substances used for skin troubles are either entirely decomposed or altered to such an extent so as to impair their therapeutic value. Thus many of the claims made for various medicated soaps fall flat, and really have no more antiseptic or therapeutic merit than ordinary soap which in itself has certain germicidal and cleaning value.

"In medicating a soap, the material used for this purpose is usually added at the mill. A tallow and cocoanut oil base is best adapted for a soap of this type...."

From E G Thomssen, Soap-making Manual, 1922.

Another author cautioned:

"...Every soapmaker engaged in the preparation of medicated soaps is aware of the painstaking care and accuracy required to make soaps according to a physician's prescription and, although many manufacturers turn out an excellent product, there are many so-called medicated soaps brought into commerce which do not deserve the name, since they frequently contain not even a trace of efficacious substances. 

"Again, we find other medicated soaps which are inoperative on account of ignorance as regards the decomposition of the chemical agents added to the soap. In many iodine soaps, for instance, a small addition of potassium iodide is found, biit no sodium hyposulphite, which is absolutely necessary to render the iodine eflBcacious. 

"And, thus there are many other soaps, which from a want of sufficient chemical knowledge are not properly composed, and, instead of having a soothing and healing effect in skin diseases, promote the diseased state...."

From C Diete, The Soap Maker's Handbook..., 1912.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I was going to say that all of my soaps contain traces of efficacious substances, but it really doesn't sound right!

The milling point is a good one and we all know that the lye monster is ever hungry and takes no care of things like additives and infusions - very interesting to see that this is not a new thought at all. 

Also interesting to see that some people making false claims is also not new. There has always been snake oil!

DeeAnna, you do find some of the most wonderful quotes and things from these old soaping books. I love the thought of you in your library leafing through these yellowed tomes, glass of wine reflecting the fire light.


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## DeeAnna

Well, actually, I leaf through most of these old books on my Kindle. Finding print originals of these texts is difficult, although I do have one from the 1920s on the colloid chemistry of soap that I treasure, despite how dense it is to understand. 

I actually will read these books from cover to cover, although I confess to skimming over the really boring parts. But I keep piecing together snippets of information that give me more insight into why and how soap was made in certain ways and how that relates to modern-day soap making. It's fascinating.

Except for not having many of those "yellowed tomes", I am otherwise guilty as charged, Gent. I often have a glass of something close to hand as I read. In cold weather, there is almost always a nice fire in the living room, since we heat with wood. There are usually one or two warm dogs sleeping nearby who will obligingly warm cold toes, if the fire is not enough. My home is unusual in that it is a 1915 timber-framed barn converted into a house, so the ambiance is appropriate to my reading matter.


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## jules92207

DeeAnna you always mesmerize me. Not only with your knowledge but also with your ability to captivate me with your writing. Now I will envy your home too as it sounds lovely.


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## soapshark2013

*99% alcohol spritz*

DeAnna,
 Do or have you ever used the 99% alcohol to spritz on the soap after pouring to stop soda ash?  I used the saran wrap but it crushed the design in the final swirl, so am left to wonder if this alcohol is a way to go...


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## DeeAnna

I don't do anything to prevent ash, Soapshark. My preference is to "embrace the ash" as others have put it. 

I know alcohol is used by some soapers, but I've never tried it. Perhaps others can chime in with their experiences.


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## Sinful7

I am with DeAnna on this, at least for my plain bars I tend to like the rustic appeal of soda ash on them.


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## reinbeau

I haven't found the alcohol to be all that effective.  I steam it off if I don't want it on the soap, otherwise, as others have said, it adds to the homemade rustic charm (yea, that's it!!)


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## soapshark2013

Thank you all for your helpful thoughts...much appreciated...


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## cmzaha

I also find alcohol to be of absolutely no use


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I find it helps after the soap is in the mould.  I clean up the equipment, pour some alcohol in to a glass and relax


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## DeeAnna

Okay, Gent, I have now officially changed my stance on using alcohol after the soap is in the mold. I really like your solution for dealing with soap ash!


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## jade-15

I now see where I went wrong... silly me was spritzing the alcohol over the top of the soap!
I always learn so much from these forums


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## jules92207

Wow, I have been making the same mistake! Thanks, Gent!


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## shaan

Hi everyone! I have small pimples on the side of my cheeks..i have this problem since last 8 years..i have taken all kind of treatments,nothing helped permanently..i used carbon soap and it reduced pimples to some extent..then i saw this thread..i was amazed to the see the pics and the effects of this soap..i somehow found pine tar,but am unable to find jewelweed anywhere here in India.. i want to make this soap..is there any plant with similar qualities like jewelweed? What can i do to substitute jewelweed or make a good acne soap?


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## soapshark2013

*pet shampoo*

Hi...has anyone out there had success at making a good pet shampoo?  I have used a basic bar of soap on my Bichon, she hasn't had issues with this so far, but am wondering if the oils are over kill for a dog?  The bar I made had 3 E.O. in it to ward off biting insects....I did consider using Neem oil in place of the other E.O.  Your thoughts...


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## DiddlyO

Animals metabolise essential oils differently to humans. I would be very careful!


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## Earthen_Step

soapshark2013 said:


> DeAnna,
> Do or have you ever used the 99% alcohol to spritz on the soap after pouring to stop soda ash?  I used the saran wrap but it crushed the design in the final swirl, so am left to wonder if this alcohol is a way to go...



This link might be of interest to you.  It has a tutorial on getting rid of soda ash. http://lather-be-soaping.blogspot.com/2012/04/dreaded-soda-ash.html

This has been a great thread,  I really want to play around with some pine tar now.  Has anyone tried out "solventfreepaint.com"?


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## MikeG

WOW!! That is amazing!! Nothing I love more then to see the medical properties of plants being used. Jewel weed is one of my favorite plants, Loosestrife works well with it too


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## shaan

Hey! Why is no one replying to my question? Please tell me if anyone knows what can we add in place of jewelweed..


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## Earthen_Step

shaan said:


> Hey! Why is no one replying to my question? Please tell me if anyone knows what can we add in place of jewelweed..



It depends on what you are trying to do.  Use a search engine and look for suitable replacements.  Pine tar soap alone might do what you are looking for, you may not even need jewelweed.


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## Dorymae

shaan said:


> Hey! Why is no one replying to my question? Please tell me if anyone knows what can we add in place of jewelweed..



I did a quick search for plants in India for acne and came up with:

Fenugreek or _methi
neem leaves
tumeric powder
or sandlewood powder
_
I'm not sure if you have access to any of these but I'd try an oil infusion of them.


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## DeeAnna

If you have a question not specifically related to the main topic of this thread, you are likely to get better response from forum members if you ask your question in a new thread rather than hijack this one. 

In this thread, we've gone from pine tar to jewelweed to soap ash to acne to pet shampoo in short order. It's getting confusing. 

Everyone goes off topic at times, including me, so I'm not trying to point any fingers or name any names, cuz I'd have to point at myself and name my name!  Just offering a helpful tip to those who might be feeling their questions are being ignored or overlooked.


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## goji_fries

Congratulations on this successful recipe


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## shaan

Thanx so much dorymae! You took time to search. Yes all these are easily available..i will use these..thanx.


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## soapshark2013

Earthen_Step said:


> This link might be of interest to you. It has a tutorial on getting rid of soda ash. http://lather-be-soaping.blogspot.com/2012/04/dreaded-soda-ash.html
> 
> This has been a great thread, I really want to play around with some pine tar now. Has anyone tried out "solventfreepaint.com"?



Hi Earthen_Step...thank you for taking the time to give me a, could be, solution to the problem...I thank you, thank you, thank you....:clap:


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## soapshark2013

DiddlyO said:


> Animals metabolise essential oils differently to humans. I would be very careful!



And I want to thank you as well for your valued opinion...


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## cmzaha

Dorymae said:


> I did a quick search for plants in India for acne and came up with:
> 
> Fenugreek or _methi_
> _neem leaves_
> _tumeric powder_
> _or sandlewood powder_
> 
> I'm not sure if you have access to any of these but I'd try an oil infusion of them.


Sandlewood powder works fantastic for my daughter. I even put it in her pine tar soap because we know she does so well with sandalwood powder


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## shaan

Hi all! I tried to make pine tar soap today.. my recipe was 
Cocoa butter-4%
Coconut oil-27%
Neem oil-7%
Pine tar-10%
Olive oil-44%
Castor oil-8%
I made 260 grams of soap,so i added 48 grams water and 43 grams witch hazel as water part at 35% and added 1/2 tea spoon of lactic acid. And lye-33g.
I mixed all the herb paste i made and essential oils,with oils..i mixed oil and water-lye mixture at 111° F each.. i mixed with a stick..after 5-7 minutes it became very sticky like tarcoal and formed a film over it as i mixed..it was like a wet sticky dough and got very hot..i poured in the molds and now its lying in a safe place..m afraid it won't turn into a soap..it does not look like the batter of other soaps i made earlier.lets see what happens tomorrow.. n if some how it turns into a soap,how long should it be kept to cure? Its so hard waiting.


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## newbie

Pine tar makes soap softer. I didn't run your recipe to see how hard the non-PT part is, but you can expect it to possibly take longer to unmold than your regular recipe. PT soaps need a normal cure of minimum 4 weeks and preferably more.

Also, pine tar greatly accelerates trace, so it will generally be very different from your other soaps you've made, in terms of how the batter acts.


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## shaan

Hi all! Its been a month i made my pine tar soaps..i am using it from last 6 days..it is not creating any foam..its like i am applying a thin black paste on face..its rinsing off well,but skin gets dry after use..and face looks dull and dark,and no improvement in acne or pimples.. :-(


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

What sort of superfat did you use? 

Looking at the recipe in general it is very different from my pine tar which lathers well. 

But I can only think that the oo means you need to give it a longer cure. But with that much co (which might well be why it's drying) you should be getting some bubbles at least. Maybe leave it for another month or two


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## shaan

No, not a single tiny bubble..just black watery thing when i rub my face..i cant figure out where i went wrong.


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## KatieShephard

DeeAnna said:


> * And what does the annotation in Soap Calc mean? It says "lye calc only, no FA"
> 
> Pine tar consumes some lye so it needs to be included as an ingredient in the soap recipe so you use the right amount of lye. Pine tar does not have any fatty acids (FA), however, so it doesn't actually make soap.



This thread was a long, but good read.  

DeeAnna...when you say that the pine tar eats some of the lye, but doesn't turn into soap...what does it turn into then?  Just curious.


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## dosco

shaan said:


> Hi all! I tried to make pine tar soap today.. my recipe was
> Cocoa butter-4%
> Coconut oil-27%
> Neem oil-7%
> Pine tar-10%
> Olive oil-44%
> Castor oil-8%
> I made 260 grams of soap,so i added 48 grams water and 43 grams witch hazel as water part at 35% and added 1/2 tea spoon of lactic acid. And lye-33g.



I put your numbers in soapcalc and I can't quite make it work because I'm not sure what you mean by "I made 260g of soap."

Does that mean you used 260g of oils? Or does that equate to the "Soap Weight before CP Cure or HP Cook" field? If it's the latter then the amount of water and lye you used appear to be incorrect (soapcalc says for a 264g "weight before CP cure" you'd use 61g water (35%) and 23g NaOH).

I'm not sure what happened ... maybe you can check your notes?

Cheers-
Dave


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## goji_fries

KristaY said:


> After reading through this very informative thread, other threads and other online sources, I've decided to give it a go. I developed my recipe based on inspiration from David Fisher (about.com) and the oils I have on hand. Sinful 7, the pics of your beautiful niece are the biggest inspiration as I also have family members that suffer from a bad complexion. Here's my recipe:
> 
> 28% Lard
> 28% OO
> 17% CO
> 12% Sunflower
> 15% Pine Tar
> 5% SF
> 
> I thought I would add Tea Tree EO for the benefits it will bring to the soap. The smell of the tar itself doesn't really bother me so if you think it will not be affected by the tea tree, I won't worry about it. I'm on the fence about the % of PT. Should I leave it at 15% or decrease to 10%? I was able to find PT today at our local Tractor Supply store so I've attached a pic. The label says "Light Pine Tar 100%". Does the brand of PT look safe and does the recipe look good as a bar for problematic skin?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Where'd you get your PT Kristay/?


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## shaan

Sorry its 260 g of oils that i used.. with 7% superfat, 35% water. Which gave -
Cocoa butter-10.4g, 
Coconut oil-70.2g,
Neem oil-18.2g,
Pine tar-26g,
Olive oil-114.4g,
Castor oil-20.8g,
Water-91g,
Lye-33g.


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## dosco

shaan said:


> Sorry its 260 g of oils that i used.. with 7% superfat, 35% water. Which gave -
> Cocoa butter-10.4g,
> Coconut oil-70.2g,
> Neem oil-18.2g,
> Pine tar-26g,
> Olive oil-114.4g,
> Castor oil-20.8g,
> Water-91g,
> Lye-33g.



According to soapcalc that ingredient list should "work."

Did you HP or CP it?

If the stuff is bad ... perhaps someone else can provide some suggestions/insight.

-Dave


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## DeeAnna

"....when you say that the pine tar eats some of the lye, but doesn't turn into soap...what does it turn into then? Just curious. ..."

I haven't looked into it, to be honest. Lye (whether KOH or NaOH) is a powerful chemical that can react with a lot of things -- triglycerides (soaping fats), proteins, other organic chemicals, acids, etc.


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## DWinMadison

Sorry, I'm late to the party.  Is pine tar added at trace like colorants and eo?  In what ratio to lbs of soap do you add it?


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## reinbeau

It's calculated into the soaping oils.  Read through the thread,  all discussed within.


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## DeeAnna

"...260 grams of oils... [and] ...added 1/2 tea spoon of lactic acid... [and] ...with 7% superfat..."

Why did you add lactic acid ... and furthermore, why add that much? Lactic acid will increase your superfat by consuming part of the lye -- and you say you added a whopping 1/2 teaspoonful for only 260 g of oils. That is a lot of acid to add to such a tiny batch even though it may not look like much. It's hard to say exactly why you're not getting any lather, but this fact is my major suspect in this case.

My advice? 

First, use KISS when making pine tar soap -- Keep It Simple, Soaper! Stick with a PROVEN soap recipe that gives a firm, long lasting, mild soap. By proven, I mean a recipe that you personally know works well without pine tar -- not something you've never tried.

Also, use a moderate to low superfat to keep the bar as firm as possible at the time of unmolding. Too much superfat and/or a soap that is normally soft at umolding do NOT mix well with pine tar soap. And finally, if you must add acid to the recipe, then also calculate and add the proper amount of extra lye needed to neutralize the acid.


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## goji_fries

DeeAnna said:


> -- Keep It Simple, Soaper!



DeeAnna 'yarready know we like to overcomplicate batches


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## shaan

i agree With goji_fries..some people tend to make things overcomplicated.. i always start with a plan to make a very very simple batch each time,but then i experiment to learn new things..but without using much brains..now thats very shameful to ask - is sodium lactate and lactic acid the same? Because i added sodium lactate half teaspoon to make a harder bar, and i said lactic acid,because i thought they are the same..i think i should add more coconut oil and less superfat in the next batch..and yes, i made my own pine tar..but not a single bubble?  i have made 8 batches till date,but this one is horrible.. only looks like soap but not behaving like a soap..was my recipe and calculation that bad?


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## DeeAnna

"...is sodium lactate and lactic acid the same?..."

They are not at all the same. If you used sodium lactate, then my point is not valid. Sodium lactate is the salt created by neutralizing lactic acid with sodium hydroxide.


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## shaan

Yes i used sodium lactate.


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## seven

DWinMadison said:


> Sorry, I'm late to the party.  Is pine tar added at trace like colorants and eo?  In what ratio to lbs of soap do you add it?



you include it in your lye calculation (there is an option for pine tar on soapcalc). i usually do 10% and soap RT. be prepared for fast trace and ditch your sb.

i also agree with DeeAnna, keep it simple. i chose not to add this and that additives, and keep the soap as basic as possible.


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