# HELP!  Trying to formulate moisturizing Dog Shampoo Bar - Need help from a pro!!



## jnl

Hello

I am trying to formulate an ethical vegetarian super-moisturizing dog shampoo bar.  My dog has SUPER sensitive skin, and needs lots of added moisture.  Currently the only shampoo I have ever used that has NOT made her super itchy is a Human Argan Oil Shampoo (Live Clean) that is so loaded with oils that I don't use conditioner on my hair anymore.

My problem:  i have a long list of oils I cant use.

I *cannot* use these oils:
palm, castor, animal fats, soy (for ethical reasons)
avocado, cocoa butter (toxic to dogs - know its should be fine as a soap, but i still want to avoid them for my dog bar)

I am looking for *at least* an 8% super fat.

I plan to do a *hot-process* method because I want to add luxury fats and essential oils AFTER the saponification has finished, plus I need the bars sooner than 4-6 weeks.

After saponification I want to add jojoba oil and argan oil.

I have been trying to develop a recipe using soapcalc.net but I cant seem to get the qualities high enough, especially the *bubbly* and *creamy* ones, and I would like the *conditioning* one higher as well.

I have been using these oils to try to make a combination that looks good:  coconut (I've been trying 25-30%), olive (20-30%), shea, camelina, jojoba, argan.  I have tried adding in babassu oil and sunflower oil and mango butter.  I don't have any babassu oil, but if its really needed to make the recipe work I can pick some up (its very expensive here).

I cant find any shampoo bar recipes (human or dog) that don't have palm or tallow or castor oil in them, so I don't have a good starting point.

I would also like to add oats to the recipe, tho that doesn't affect the lye and soap properties calculations.  I will add some essential oils as well, tho I still have to do more research one which ones are dog-safe.  I know lavender is one I will add.  I am also thinking of adding citric acid post-processing to reduce the PH to about 7.  These are much less important than the base recipe.  I need a bar that is hard, sudsy, and super moisturizing.

*When I use soapcalc, do I leave out my post-process fats (argan and jojoba) and decrease the super-fat %?  or do I keep them in the recipe and keep the super-fat % high??*

Any help from a pro who knows how to tweak recipes would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!

Thanks!


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## true blue

When tweaking/creating recipes, I've found that it's kind of difficult to get BOTH high bubbly (which usually = hard) and high conditioning.


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## cmzaha

One thing you cannot do is lower the ph of soap to 7, it just is not possible. Adding in Citric will only up your superfat, since it will neutralize some of the lye. DeeAnna has several postings on the subject. Avocado is a wonderful moisturizing oil, why can you not use it? Just curious. Babassu used with coconut will give you a higher cleansing and mango is actually an astringent butter. I would stick with the shea and adding in some sugar will give you extra bubbles. I can't really help you with the combination of oils since my doggie bar is made with co, tallow, avo, neem, palm, shea and Castor. Guess that does not help :razz:. I do not go over 2% with essentials in my doggie soap. lavender, citronella, peppermint (a tiny amount), rosemary


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## new12soap

When I first came to internet soaping forums I read a lot about making soaps for dogs, and I asked our veterinarian about it. He told me very firmly to NEVER use soap on our dogs, commercial or homemade.

Dogs' skin is very very different from humans, it is MUCH thinner and far more sensitive. It is much harder for them to recover the natural pH they should have. Humans can use an alkaline soap and return to normal in about 15 minutes. Not so for dogs. He said PLEASE do not do that to your dogs.

After caring for our families' pets for about 20 years, he moved out of state and sold his practice. We stayed with the practice, and just to see what she would say, I asked our new, younger, from a different part of the country and of different background vet about it and she said NO! For all the same reasons.

Remember that some oils and MANY essential oils are toxic to dogs (and cats, and other animals).

I know that there are people that use them, and have seen no ill effects. But please consider that as "all natural" as you may want to be, it really might not be the best choice. I would never _never NEVER_ do anything that would risk the health of my four-legged babies.

JM2C


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## jnl

I am using hot process and am adding the citric acid AFTER the soap has fully saponified (right before molding), so it will lower the PH. It only needs to lower a little.

Avocado oil is toxic to dogs. So is Cocoa butter. I would LOVE to use both because they are awesome oils, but this is for a dog (with severe allergies).

Ahh...sugar. I forgot about that, that might help. I will probably use honey because its natural. Bubbles are important for a dog bar. And maybe a little salt to help the hardening process.

I will probably stick to 1% EO because my dog has such sensitive skin. Might actually be a good idea to not put any in....but I like the idea of bug-repellent EO's.

Its such a shame that mango butter is astringent, because it soaks in the best out of all butters and leaves the skin soooo soft. But when I use it in lotions it irritates my skin a little bit.




cmzaha said:


> One thing you cannot do is lower the ph of soap to 7, it just is not possible. Adding in Citric will only up your superfat, since it will neutralize some of the lye. DeeAnna has several postings on the subject. Avocado is a wonderful moisturizing oil, why can you not use it? Just curious. Babassu used with coconut will give you a higher cleansing and mango is actually an astringent butter. I would stick with the shea and adding in some sugar will give you extra bubbles. I can't really help you with the combination of oils since my doggie bar is made with co, tallow, avo, neem, palm, shea and Castor. Guess that does not help :razz:. I do not go over 2% with essentials in my doggie soap. lavender, citronella, peppermint (a tiny amount), rosemary


 
I have read a number of blog posts from people who have dogs with extreme allergies like mine and their dogs had no problem with home made natural soaps. My dog definitely needs to be soaped up once in a while. She is a lab and gets a really waxy coat and lots of dandruff sometimes. In the summer, her swimming in the ocean and lakes is more than good enough to keep her clean. But in the winter she gets so nasty. Plain water is not good enough to clean her when she gets like that. And she was sprayed by a skunk a few days ago and I had to use dish soap to clean her so she has been shedding like crazy all over and super itchy. Poor thing.

I will research any EO's before using them, but I may not use any at all.




new12soap said:


> When I first came to internet soaping forums I read a lot about making soaps for dogs, and I asked our veterinarian about it. He told me very firmly to NEVER use soap on our dogs, commercial or homemade.
> 
> Dogs' skin is very very different from humans, it is MUCH thinner and far more sensitive. It is much harder for them to recover the natural pH they should have. Humans can use an alkaline soap and return to normal in about 15 minutes. Not so for dogs. He said PLEASE do not do that to your dogs.
> 
> After caring for our families' pets for about 20 years, he moved out of state and sold his practice. We stayed with the practice, and just to see what she would say, I asked our new, younger, from a different part of the country and of different background vet about it and she said NO! For all the same reasons.
> 
> Remember that some oils and MANY essential oils are toxic to dogs (and cats, and other animals).
> 
> I know that there are people that use them, and have seen no ill effects. But please consider that as "all natural" as you may want to be, it really might not be the best choice. I would never _never NEVER_ do anything that would risk the health of my four-legged babies.
> 
> JM2C


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## Obsidian

Why not try a plain olive oil bar with whatever extra oils you want after the cook? Its not a super bubbly soap but its gently and conditioning. Soap doesn't have to bubble to clean, even a thin milky lather cleans just fine.
I wouldn't worry about using avocado oil or coco butter on a dog unless they are actually allergic to them. My small dogs once ate a 1 lb container of body butter made with coco butter and avocado oil, they didn't get sick at all. 

I've used different bar soaps on my dogs and I really don't care for the results. Their fur is so dry and dull, I'd rather use baby shampoo with oatmeal. The one that works best is the one with 30% neem oil. I do use a vinegar rinse afterwards to help balance the PH.


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## jnl

Its hard to bathe a dog, so I am assuming more lather is easier when struggling with an animal.  It is when I use liquid shampoo, but I have not used a soap bar with my dog yet.

I don't have 6 months to wait for olive oil soap to harden!!  How fast does it complete when doing HP?

I dont know anything about neem oil, but I will look into it.

Do you happen to have the dog soap recipes you used that you DIDNT like (so I can avoid similar formulations)?  I am hoping the addition of jojoba and argan oil after the HP and also citric acid to reduce the PH will help.





Obsidian said:


> Why not try a plain olive oil bar with whatever extra oils you want after the cook? Its not a super bubbly soap but its gently and conditioning. Soap doesn't have to bubble to clean, even a thin milky lather cleans just fine.
> I wouldn't worry about using avocado oil or coco butter on a dog unless they are actually allergic to them. My small dogs once ate a 1 lb container of body butter made with coco butter and avocado oil, they didn't get sick at all.
> 
> I've used different bar soaps on my dogs and I really don't care for the results. Their fur is so dry and dull, I'd rather use baby shampoo with oatmeal. The one that works best is the one with 30% neem oil. I do use a vinegar rinse afterwards to help balance the PH.


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## OliveOil2

If your dog gets sprayed by a skunk again there is a product called 'Odormute' you can find it on Amazon or many pet stores. I swear by it, totally removes the skunk smell as long as you get it on all of the areas that were hit. The product is a powder that you mix with water, so you only use what you need and a small box will last a long time.


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## jnl

It happened at 3am, and I had nothing special at home!
just baking soda/dishsoap/peroxide
the next day i picked up some Natures Miracle Skunk Odor Remover.
Used that to try to clean up the sunk smell in my house and outside (sprayed right at my front door).  I need to bathe my dog again, and will use it, but I wanted to give her a few days because her skin is so irritated right now.  She doesnt smell too bad.  My bathroom still stinks pretty bad even tho i scrubbed it spotless (i think its maybe the drain and the walls which i wiped but not scrubbed) and also outside smells bad even tho i scrubbed that too.    The problem with dogs is they shake, and that sends the skunk tar flying really far and you cant see where it all lands.
I did totally get the skunk out of my pants!  my dog had wiped her skunk face on my pants and they were horrible.  I washed them 4 or 5 times with 2 long soaks just to be safe.




OliveOil2 said:


> If your dog gets sprayed by a skunk again there is a product called 'Odormute' you can find it on Amazon or many pet stores. I swear by it, totally removes the skunk smell as long as you get it on all of the areas that were hit. The product is a powder that you mix with water, so you only use what you need and a small box will last a long time.


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## OliveOil2

Oh I feel for you I had a Lab that got sprayed many times, and usually in the middle of the night. One time she rolled on a beautiful hand pieced quilt, and it still smelled after 4 washes, I sprayed with that odormute and no more skunk smell.
Sorry I don't have any suggestions for a dog bar shampoo, that is something that I don't make. Just last week my sister had to purchase special gentle dog shampoo for her lab because she had an allergic reaction to the regular pet shampoo.


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## jnl

i put my clothes in the machine and soaked in hot water, a huge amount of soap, plus dish soap, plus a lot of boarax and let that sit until i bought the skunk spray the next day.  added 4 times the recommended amount of skunk spray (said to add 1 capfull to a load) and washed it.  i pulled the pants out and could not smell skunk on them.  i washed them a bunch more times just to be safe (and because i had other cloths and towels to wash that had gotten skunky in the cleanup).

i read the most important thing to get skunk off clothes is to get them soaking within an hour of contamination.  im sure the skunk sprays help quite a bit (mine has enzymes that are supposed to break down the skunk oil).

im just lucky it took 8 years before i got so unlucky.  my dog has chased skunks many times!  i have a friend whose dog has been sprayed MANY times. 


i bought sooooo many special dog shampoos and they were all HORRIBLE.  Live Clean Argan Oil Shampoo (for humans) is the only thing that doesnt make her super crazy itchy.  it only makes her a little itchy.





OliveOil2 said:


> Oh I feel for you I had a Lab that got sprayed many times, and usually in the middle of the night. One time she rolled on a beautiful hand pieced quilt, and it still smelled after 4 washes, I sprayed with that odormute and no more skunk smell.
> Sorry I don't have any suggestions for a dog bar shampoo, that is something that I don't make. Just last week my sister had to purchase special gentle dog shampoo for her lab because she had an allergic reaction to the regular pet shampoo.


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## cmzaha

Dogs love and eat avocados, so I would really question the toxic to dogs theory. I know many dogs that eat them almost daily including dogs we had that lived long old lives. One, actually she was a coyote and lived to be 20, my Elkhound lived to be 17. They both ate and loved avocados. Little hard to keep them from eating them when you have 3 avocado trees. Both dogs had beautiful coats and skin. 
I am not saying a dog like any human cannot be allergic to them. One of the biggest problems with doggies and cats eating them is they tend to get fat


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## girlishcharm2004

It doesn't matter when you add the citric acid, it only raises the superfat, not lower the pH.  Sorry.

It sounds like your dog is severely allergic to many things.  I would skip the mango and shea butter if a latex allergy is a possibility.

I would keep it simple without any essential oils at first.

It doesn't matter if it's hot process or cold process, it still needs to cure properly to rid itself of excess moisture. Sometimes hot process needs to cure even longer because the nature of the beast requires more water.


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## jnl

Thanks, there goes my entire life!

Im allergic to latex.  I had no idea latex proteins were in foods.  I just googled it and apparently i have to watch out for ALMOST EVERYTHING.  Most fruits, nuts and vegetables.  and most oils used for making soap including: shea, mango, avocado, sunflower, soy, walnut, grapes (so i am assuming the seed oil too?), hazelnut, castor, peanut.  Why didnt my allergist tell me any of this?  All they said was I had to wear a medic alert bracelet and tell my dentist and doctors.

CRAZY.

I guess that explains my tomato (and other) allergies.  and why i get random reactions that I dont know what from.

And apparently they add latex to tons of products like maxi pads (no wonder im allergic to them), toothpaste, toothbrushes, erasers, pens, saran wrap, postage stamps, mousepads....etc.

Maybe the shea is why I react to the lotions I (and others) make.  I thought it was the preservatives or the e-wax.  So now I have to try to figure out which ones bother me.  And if a recipe is not right, how can I tell if its from an allergy or just a unbalanced recipe?  I dont have anaphylactic reactions yet, but my allergist said my test reaction was very strong and it could turn anaphylactic at any time.

argh.





girlishcharm2004 said:


> It doesn't matter when you add the citric acid, it only raises the superfat, not lower the pH.  Sorry.
> 
> It sounds like your dog is severely allergic to many things.  I would skip the mango and shea butter if a latex allergy is a possibility.
> 
> I would keep it simple without any essential oils at first.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it's hot process or cold process, it still needs to cure properly to rid itself of excess moisture. Sometimes hot process needs to cure even longer because the nature of the beast requires more water.


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## Susie

jnl said:


> Maybe the shea is why I react to the lotions I (and others) make.  I thought it was the preservatives or the e-wax.  So now I have to try to figure out which ones bother me.  And if a recipe is not right, how can I tell if its from an allergy or just a unbalanced recipe?  I dont have anaphylactic reactions yet, but my allergist said my test reaction was very strong and it could turn anaphylactic at any time.
> 
> argh.



You eliminate EVERYTHING on the list.  Then you check with the allergy specialist before adding anything back.  The problem is that the anaphylactic reaction can happen with anything on that list at any time.

Also, HP takes the same amount of time to cure as CP.


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## Obsidian

jnl said:


> Do you happen to have the dog soap recipes you used that you DIDNT like (so I can avoid similar formulations)?  I am hoping the addition of jojoba and argan oil after the HP and also citric acid to reduce the PH will help.



I doubt you'll formulate anything like mine, I use castor, shea and animal fats. Why can't/don't you use castor? Its quite important in a shampoo bar.

With the limits of the fats that can use, I just don't see how you can make a nice bar like you want. I still think your best bet is to try mostly olive oil, yes it needs a long cure but it makes a mild soap. 

You really need to get over the idea of lowering the the PH with citric acid. It won't work, not even if added after the cook. 
If you did manage to add enough to lower the PH, it wouldn't be soap anymore, it would turn into a gooey mess. Soap naturally has a high PH.

If you are worried about the PH of the dogs skin, you can always use a very mild vinegar rinse to help get balanced back.


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## jnl

The harvesting of castor oil is extremely toxic to the workers.  Which is why it is only grown in countries that have no protections for workers.  And I dont like the idea of using oil from such a toxic plant.

http://www.linnaeus.net/problem_with_castor.htm







Obsidian said:


> I doubt you'll formulate anything like mine, I use castor, shea and animal fats. Why can't/don't you use castor? Its quite important in a shampoo bar.
> 
> With the limits of the fats that can use, I just don't see how you can make a nice bar like you want. I still think your best bet is to try mostly olive oil, yes it needs a long cure but it makes a mild soap.
> 
> You really need to get over the idea of lowering the the PH with citric acid. It won't work, not even if added after the cook.
> If you did manage to add enough to lower the PH, it wouldn't be soap anymore, it would turn into a gooey mess. Soap naturally has a high PH.
> 
> If you are worried about the PH of the dogs skin, you can always use a very mild vinegar rinse to help get balanced back.


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## IrishLass

jnl said:


> I am using hot process and am adding the citric acid AFTER the soap has fully saponified (right before molding), so it will lower the PH. It only needs to lower a little.


 
Ditto what the other's have said regarding this. Lye-based soap will never reach a neutral pH of 7. If it did, it wouldn't be soap anymore and it wouldn't be able to clean anything. That's because soap (the kind made via lye), is, by it's very definition, an alkaline salt of a fatty acid, which means it will always be on the alkaline side of the pH chart (at least 8 pH and higher). The normal range of pH for lye-based soap ranges anywhere from 8 to 11.5 or 12 or so (Johnson's Baby soap with oatmeal actually has a pH of 12.35, believe it or not!).

I also wanted to ditto the need for HP soap needing a proper cure the same as CP. Most especially if you want your soap to mature to the point of being the mildest it can be. If one wants something to be ready quicker than 4 to 6 weeks, then making lye-based soap is probably not the best option. A better option would be to make a surfactant-based bar (which will have a neutral PH). 

. 


jnl said:


> Avocado oil is toxic to dogs. So is Cocoa butter. I would LOVE to use both because they are awesome oils, but this is for a dog (with severe allergies).


 
Actually, from what I understand from all that I have read on the different vet sites, avocado oil is safe for dogs. There's even a dog-food company that makes dog food with avocado oil in it. It's the leaves and bark of the avocado tree, and the pit and skin themselves that need to be avoided with pets. The flesh (where the oil comes from) is fine.

Also, from what I have read on the different vet sites, cocoa butter, as well as white chocolate, are not toxic to dogs either, because the theobromine and caffeine (which dogs are sensitive to) have been removed.


IrishLass


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## jnl

Most dogs can eat large amounts of milk chocolate and be fine, doesnt mean its not dangerous.  There is still theobromine  in cocoa butter, tho much less than in chocolate.  Some dogs have severe reactions to theobromine, so even cocoa butter is a risk for those dogs.  Why risk it?  Avocado should be fine for most dogs, but its possible some dogs could react badly to it.  Im making a soap for a dog with crazy allergies, so its better to keep any iffy ingredients out.

and a major reason to leave cocoa butter out is because the smell is so good you dont want your dog to develop a "taste" for chocolate and be more likely to steal some.  my dog already pesters me when i pull out my cocoa butter chapstick.  i dont want her licking herself all over to try to get some cocoa butter flavor.  lol  my cocoa butter is SUPER stinky (in a good way).  I can smell it from a few meters away while its in an airtight container.





IrishLass said:


> (truncate...)
> 
> Actually, from what I understand from all that I have read on the different vet sites, avocado oil is safe for dogs. There's even a dog-food company that makes dog food with avocado oil in it. It's the leaves and bark of the avocado tree, and the pit and skin themselves that need to be avoided with pets. The flesh (where the oil comes from) is fine.
> 
> Also, from what I have read on the different vet sites, cocoa butter, as well as white chocolate, are not toxic to dogs either, because the theobromine and caffeine (which dogs are sensitive to) have been removed.
> 
> IrishLass


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## IrishLass

jnl said:


> and a major reason to leave cocoa butter out is because the smell is so good you dont want your dog to develop a "taste" for chocolate and be more likely to steal some.


 
You could always use refined cocoa butter. It has no smell.


IrishLass


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

If you can smell cocoa butter in a soap, you have a better nose than any dog! The butter will be a salt, not a butter - unless you count the tiny amount of superfat. As I said in the hp thread, what something is like before you saponify it can often have no or very little similarity to how it is after it is saponified.


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## JayBird

When we had a skunky dog, I washed him with my charcoal bar (that was very super fatted), and rinsed him with my home canned tomato sauce. It worked pretty well, except I don't wash my dog's face with anything, ever, so I have to wait out skunky scent on that part of him. Thank goodness that doesn't happen often.


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## reinbeau

I have a soap recipe in front of me that's titled 'Herbal Canine Shampoo Bar', from The Essential Herbal magazine.  I've made it for humans, it's a lovely soap.  The article talks about how nice this is on the sensitive skin of a dog.  It is made with a cole water Althaea root decoction and powdered Althaea Root (marshmallow) Yes, it has essential oils in it for fragrance, but none of them are oils that are contraindicated for dogs.  I can't for the life of me imagine anyone suggesting commercial dog shampoo, full of chemicals, is better than a gentle soap for washing our best friends.  

I'll have to get permission to share the recipe from Marci, the author, if there is any interest.


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## jnl

my dog got it mostly in the face
and in the mouth
her fur smells not too bad (only a slight scent on her muzzle), but her breath smells like skunk really strong still LOL

my dads friend as a kid tricked his brothers into playing with a skunk, and they got sprayed in the mouth.  they ate a bar of soap because that was LESS bad than the skunk.  NASTY!






JayBird said:


> When we had a skunky dog, I washed him with my charcoal bar (that was very super fatted), and rinsed him with my home canned tomato sauce. It worked pretty well, except I don't wash my dog's face with anything, ever, so I have to wait out skunky scent on that part of him. Thank goodness that doesn't happen often.


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## jnl

I would love to see the recipe, if possible.  thanks!

right now im thinking im might go with a simple 25% coconut, 65% olive, 10% shea superfatted to 2% (or 0%?) and then add in after HP argan oil and jojoba oil and oat flower (and possibly milk powder...) for a total superfat of 10% (or 8%?).  After I try that I can adjust based on the properties I like/dislike in the bar and try out other additives.

i like the idea of those baby bars that are almost all olive oil, but i dont want to wait 6 months for it to harden!  lol





reinbeau said:


> I have a soap recipe in front of me that's titled 'Herbal Canine Shampoo Bar', from The Essential Herbal magazine.  I've made it for humans, it's a lovely soap.  The article talks about how nice this is on the sensitive skin of a dog.  It is made with a cole water Althaea root decoction and powdered Althaea Root (marshmallow) Yes, it has essential oils in it for fragrance, but none of them are oils that are contraindicated for dogs.  I can't for the life of me imagine anyone suggesting commercial dog shampoo, full of chemicals, is better than a gentle soap for washing our best friends.
> 
> I'll have to get permission to share the recipe from Marci, the author, if there is any interest.


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## biarine

Coconut Oil (92 deg) 26 percent 
Flaxseed infused in Olive Oil pomace 40 percent 
Rice Bran Oil 25 percent
Mango butter 9 percent


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## Susie

I would never use more than 20% Coconut oil as it can be really drying to my skin.  And if you have to bathe the dog, your skin will get dry also, not to mention the dog's skin.

Also, if the dog(as well as you) has crazy allergies, I would steer far away from adding protein containing ingredients such as milk and "oat flower", as the proteins are what you typically react to in an allergen.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I find anything over 50% olive needs a little but more time before I can unmould and cut. But as for sure, it shouldn't need too long. Your first bar at four weeks won't compare to a bar at right weeks, especially when lathered on a furry body - just so you don't get down when you use it and it doesn't seem to last long.


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## jnl

thanks!

I have Camelina oil, which is pretty much the same as flax seed oil for nutritional value (super high in omega 3), but its super shelf stable (2 years unrefrigerated!) and tastes and smells better.  And it can be used in super high heat cooking and does not create carcinogens at high heats.

mango butter is astringent so i am hesitant to use it for my dog.  it irritates my skin.  so i would swap that for shea.

i think thats the recipe thats used on soaping101 for a dog shampoo.  looks familiar.




biarine said:


> Coconut Oil (92 deg) 26 percent
> Flaxseed infused in Olive Oil pomace 40 percent
> Rice Bran Oil 25 percent
> Mango butter 9 percent


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## jnl

i am allergic to eating oats.  i react quite badly, even when they are guaranteed gluten-free.

but i have been using an oatmeal lotion (aveeno) on my whole body for years and its the only one i find soothing.  so i will try it with the oats, but if my dog reacts to the oats I will cut them out.  i may leave out the milk.  i do know argan oil is great for both me and my dog.

my only concern with reducing the coconut is it would make the bar super soft.  

its strange how people always say dogs are like their owners, and its sooo true.  both me and my dog have LOTS of allergies and crazy sensitive skin.
and our personalities are quite similar.




Susie said:


> I would never use more than 20% Coconut oil as it can be really drying to my skin.  And if you have to bathe the dog, your skin will get dry also, not to mention the dog's skin.
> 
> Also, if the dog(as well as you) has crazy allergies, I would steer far away from adding protein containing ingredients such as milk and "oat flower", as the proteins are what you typically react to in an allergen.


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## girlishcharm2004

You can do what you want, but I'm curious as to why you'd want to play with a potentially serious allergen (shea butter).  I mean, I'm assuming you're going to be the one bathing your dog.  

Anyhow, another question would be why limit animal fats in your dog's soap, when you buy dog food that has animal fat in it as well?  I think you'll find tallow and lard to be exceptional for sensitive skin.  On the plus side, it will harden your bar without the risks of the other butters that you're considering.  You say it's for ethical reasons, can't you find any that's ethically sourced -- like organic, grass fed tallow?

Just food for thought.


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## reinbeau

Well, this recipe breaks some of the 'rules' some of you are following, all I can say is it's a wonderful soap and I'd have no problem using it on myself, as well as my dog.  Posted with permission of the author.

*Herbal Canine Shampoo Bar (or, Human Deep Woods Outdoor Soap)* by Marci Tsohonis

This recipe makes 100.4 ounces of soap (6 lbs, 4 oz.)

Prepare overnight Althaea Root Decoction (I have powdered Althaea Root, it worked fine).  Weigh 1 oz. cut and sifted Althaea Root.  Cover with 10 oz. COLD distilled water and a lid to prevent evaporation.  Allow to steep overnight at room temp.  Althaea Root is mucilaginous, so in the morning you'll discover the water is slightly slimy and a bit thicker.  Strain the thickened liquid from the root and set aside.  You will add a weighed 6 oz. of this decoction to the soap pot right after the Lye Solution has been blended in.

*Oils (you could use calendula, comfrey or plantain infused olive oil if you have it):*

19 oz. Coconut Oil
26 Oz. Olive Oil
3.50 oz. Avocado Oil
4.50 oz. Castor Oil
4 oz. Rice Bran Oil
3 oz. Jojoba Oil
2 oz. Shea Butter
3.50 oz. Wheat Germ Oil
2 oz. Neem Oil
2 oz. Palm Kernel Oil

*Lye solution *(can be prepared the night before when preparing the Althaea Root Decoction and the Essential Oil Blend):

19 oz. distilled water (discounted as the balance of the water is in the Althaea decoction)
9.25 oz. Sodium Hydroxide (discounted at 10%)

*Herbal Additives:*

6 oz. Mucilaginous liquid (This is the Althaea Root decocted over night in 10 oz. of water, you'll lose some of that water when you strain it).  Add to the soap kettle directly after stirring in the Lye solution.

3 tbsp. Powdered Althaea Root premoistened with 3-4 tbsp Distilled water or escess Althaea Root decoction and set aside.  This will be added to the soap kettle at trace, with the Essential Oils.  Because I used Powdered Althaea Root in the decoction, I just saved the already moistened powder I sifted out of the decoction and added a little bit of Distilled water back to it.  You'll figure it out.

*Essential Oil Blend *(best made the night before to allow total blending):

.50 oz. Cedarwood EO
.50 oz. Lemongrass EO
.50 oz. Eucalyptus EO
.25 oz. Peppermint EO
.50 oz. Lavender EO

*Make soap! * Melt the oils, blend them all together.  Cool to about 115-125°F.  Add the lye solution, immediately add the 6 oz. Althaea Root Decoction.  Bring to a light trace.  Add in your moistened, powdered Althaea Root and your Essential Oils.  At this point I added colors, I broke it up into three pots plus the big mixing bowl - I used Chromium Green Oxide, Australian Red Reef Clay and Activated Bamboo Charcoal.  I did an in the pot swirl back into the main mixing bowl.  Pour the batter into your mold/s of choice.  She advises to cover the soap with Saran wrap or freezer paper to prevent ash.  I didn't have a lot of trouble with ash, YMMV.  As she advised, I gelled the soap.  

I just love this recipe, as do several of my customers, one of whom buys three bars at a time.  My niece has those dry skin bumps on the back of her arms, she's dealt with this her whole life - my sister told me they're gone because of this soap.  So if you don't use it on your dog, please do use it on yourself!! http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## jnl

I eat meat (not very often, but I do eat it).  I have no problem with the need for animals to die for me (or my dog) to be able to live.  But I dont like the idea of an animal having to die for me to have clean skin.   Plus the thought of slathering a dead animal on myself is nasty.  Im not saying I will NEVER use animal fats, but for now I don't want to.  If there is no way for me to make good soap without it, I might consider it.  I am allergic to chicken and beef as well, so that also limits animal fats.

I wonder if milk fats would work as a base (rather than an additive).....If I could get pure cream.  I will have to google that.  That is an interesting idea.





girlishcharm2004 said:


> You can do what you want, but I'm curious as to why you'd want to play with a potentially serious allergen (shea butter).  I mean, I'm assuming you're going to be the one bathing your dog.
> 
> Anyhow, another question would be why limit animal fats in your dog's soap, when you buy dog food that has animal fat in it as well?  I think you'll find tallow and lard to be exceptional for sensitive skin.  On the plus side, it will harden your bar without the risks of the other butters that you're considering.  You say it's for ethical reasons, can't you find any that's ethically sourced -- like organic, grass fed tallow?
> 
> Just food for thought.


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## snappyllama

I substitute water for goat milk or coconut milk or aloe water in most of my batches and love the results. SoapCalc does have value for milks; however, I think you're going to end up with a very soft bar that might never set up... there's simply too much liquid:fat. I use milk _instead of_ water not instead of oils...


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## jnl

Thanks Ann!  Your soap looks pretty.


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## reinbeau

Well, if you eat meat, then I gotta wonder why you can't deal with using all of the animal.  Why toss parts that are so lovely and useful for wonderful hand made soap?  I honor _all_ of the animal, not just the meat.  But that's just how I see it.


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## jnl

It would for sure need some harder oils added, but if I use cream.  or ghee, which is pretty much milk oil with the water component removed.  I'm sure someone has tried making ghee soap.  I will google it.

ghee is in soapcalc

LOL someone on here already tried it
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=25835

and they said their soap smelled like vomit.  too funny






snappyllama said:


> I substitute water for goat milk or coconut milk or aloe water in most of my batches and love the results. SoapCalc does have value for milks; however, I think you're going to end up with a very soft bar that might never set up... there's simply too much liquid:fat. I use milk _instead of_ water not instead of oils...


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## lionprincess00

I just wanted to chime in. The animal dies to feed you. It's kinder, I feel, to utilize all the waste that's _thrown away_ like fat, than to toss it and eat the meat only. 
The animals aren't slaughtered for fat to clean you, they were killed for meat to eat and you can choose to use all parts possible to make the slaughter less wasteful. 
Just my opinion on the matter since you were on the fence. I was apprehensive on my own reasons at first, but now I go to the butcher and get all of their fat that goes into the garbage from the steaks they have carved up. 
Waste not!


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## snappyllama

I'll chime in with the others... using something that would otherwise go into the trash is the humane/environmentally conscious thing to do. Lard makes really lovely, gentle soap. I just put up a few batches for a friend with eczema... mostly lard with olive oil and a little hemp/avocado/pumpkin seed oil substituting water for goat milk or calendula or aloe or pumpkin puree. They aren't ready yet, but their initial testing shows them to be creamy and super mild (I made several variations for him to pick between). They don't have much in the way of bubbles (no coconut oil or castor in them), but something similar might work well for your puppy.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Aye - it's not like animals are killed just for the fat and the meat is then thrown away


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## TeresaT

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Aye - it's not like animals are killed just for the fat and the meat is then thrown away



That's funny.  I'm picturing just that in my mind.  Big juicy steak in the garbage and big nasty blob of fat on the scale with my smiling face waiting for it to be bagged.  The rendering pot awaits!! 

I add tallow to all of my soap (and castor oil, too).  I love the texture and hardness it gives to the soap.  AND my skin has not looked or felt this good in a long time.  I have an autoimmune disease called Sjogren's Syndrome and my body attacks all of the moisture producing glands.  I have EXTREMELY dry eyes, mouth and skin.  An alligator looks good compared to me!  Since I've been making/using my own soap -- with tallow -- much of my skin problems have been alleviated.  I will never go back to a commercial product and from now on, I will always use tallow for my skin.


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## Susie

If you think tallow makes good soap, try lard.


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## TeresaT

Susie said:


> If you think tallow makes good soap, try lard.



I started with lard and switched to tallow.  Not because I think it's so much better, but because I render it myself.  If I can source raw pig fat, then I'll probably switch to lard.  I like that whole rendering process.  The beef fat I've got comes from a local farm that pasture raises their cows, no grain at all. They also raise pigs and sheep, but they didn't have any pig or sheep fat.  I've still got about 8 lbs of beef fat in the freezer that I need to render.  I'll start on that tomorrow.  Once that's done, I'll call Sequatchie Groves to see if they have any fat and what kind.  I don't know why, but I find the whole process soothing.  I take this nasty lump of stinky fat and eventually turn it into something I wash my hands with.  It's magical somehow.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo

http://spottedhipposoap.blogspot.com/2010/11/castor-canundrum-miracle-bean-or-toxic.html?m=1

So far, I've read this on the harmful effects of harvesting castor oil.  What do you think? I'm going to read more. But I too, only want to use humanely harvested ingredients. Castor oil is crucial in a good bar of soap, as far as I've learned anyway. So I'd be at a loss if I chose to stop using it. 

Are there any alternatives to castor? Anything similar?


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## Susie

Did you read all of that?



"*The Facts:
I found no substantiated evidence that exposure to the plant's leaves causes permanent nerve damage, in fact Castor plants grow quite readily throughout the United States (predominantly in Florida, Texas and California).* They are even used as ornamental plants in gardens.
However, prolonged contact with the plant's sap, flowers, seeds or leaves may result in a rash. If introduced to the eye, conjunctivitis may develop (you can read more here). 
Also, like ragweed, the Castor plant (Ricinus communis) does produce a great deal of pollen, which can cause allergies. In severe cases, people may develop asthma.
Perhaps the most documented effects of Castor are seen in the factory workers where the oil is produced. Factory workers exposed to dust from the Castor seeds may develop allergies and suffer from asthma (you can read more here). 
So how bad is all this?

Well, the same risks and ailments are common among 
Coffee factory workers
Cocoa bean processors
Soybean factory workers
Confectionery plant workers
Spice processors
So, in my view, the negative effects associated with Castor processing are really more of an occupational hazard than a call to arms or reason to boycott. This site published a fairly comprehensive table outlining a variety of biological agents that have been linked to occupational asthma across a variety of occupations."


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## reinbeau

Since this thread is discussing a dog shampoo, shouldn't a new thread be started to discuss castor oil issues?


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## HappyHomeSoapCo

Yes, Susie, I read all that. 

I do see the dangers involved. And I'm still contemplating the whole issue. But I think the writer makes a good point. An occupational hazard is still a hazard. But when we use so many things that are associated with a health hazard, are we to boycott it all together? Castor oil has many good benefits. If there were an easy alternative I'd jump ship in a heart beat. But I'm not sure if there is one?



reinbeau said:


> Since this thread is discussing a dog shampoo, shouldn't a new thread be started to discuss castor oil issues?


 
Possibly. One of the OP concerns was castor oil. I haven't seen much info talked about this so I thought it'd be ok to elaborate. Considering the OP would like to avoid it.


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## Dahila

Susie said:


> If you think tallow makes good soap, try lard.


Do like I do: Tallow and lard )


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## Susie

HappyHomeSoapCo said:


> Yes, Susie, I read all that.
> 
> I do see the dangers involved. And I'm still contemplating the whole issue. But I think the writer makes a good point. An occupational hazard is still a hazard. But when we use so many things that are associated with a health hazard, are we to boycott it all together? Castor oil has many good benefits. If there were an easy alternative I'd jump ship in a heart beat. But I'm not sure if there is one?



If you did read all that, I think you missed the point of no substantiated evidence.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo

Susie, I'm hoping it's true. I want to do more research. Reading one blog that says there's no substantial evidence is great to read but I want to be sure.  So many people claim the opposite.


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## TeresaT

HappyHomeSoapCo said:


> Yes, Susie, I read all that.
> 
> I do see the dangers involved. And I'm still contemplating the whole issue. But I think the writer makes a good point. An occupational hazard is still a hazard. But when we use so many things that are associated with a health hazard, are we to boycott it all together? Castor oil has many good benefits. If there were an easy alternative I'd jump ship in a heart beat. But I'm not sure if there is one?




Have you heard of "popcorn lung?"  Apparently, working in a microwave popcorn facility can cause lung problems for the workers.  Stock market traders have a higher rate of heart attacks per capita than other businessmen.  There are risks and hazards associated with all types of jobs (as stated in the article), including making soap.  You can get lye burns and the fumes are pretty nasty, you don't want to suck them in.  

Everyone has to decide for him/herself what to use or not to use and why.  Personally, I think not using a product because the workers "might" end up with asthma or allergies or lung disease isn't a strong reason.  

Deforestation, for me personally, is a major issue; I won't use Palm oils.  

Known carcinogens are an issue, so I'm not going to use anything that science has proven will cause cancer in humans.  

Potentially toxic "natural" substances are scary to me, so I'll stay away from wintergreen, pennyroyal and sage.  Sure I'm smart enough to use them correctly; but, I'm also smart enough to know my ADHD wins most battles.  

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but one of the reasons cited for potentially not using castor oil is worker safety.  If people stop using castor oil, worker safety will no longer be an issue because there will no longer be jobs for those workers.  I'm not exaggerating.  Look at our history.  How many American workers lost jobs because American companies shut down (and or moved operations) because they could not or would not comply with worker safety issues (as well as finding cheaper labor).  

If I had a choice between a job that caused allergies to kick in or no job at all, I'd be taking steroids and harvesting castor.  IDK. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks like that?

OK.  I'll shut up now.  Sorry.  Had to get it off my chest.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo

Great points,  Teresa! I completely agree!


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## Charlie

*Avocado Oil*

Please make sure you do your research. Avocado is toxic to dogs. So is tea tree oil in small dogs. If you have a sensitive skin dog NO ESSENTIAL OILS. And keep in mind oat is not good if a sensitive skin dog is susceptible to yeast infections. It promotes it.Basic is the best.


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## reinbeau

Avocado oil is NOT toxic for dogs, here's one link on the subject, there are more.  There's more danger of choking on the pit.  Tea tree oil, undiluted, is dangerous for dogs and cats, however, diluted it is still used as a skin treatment on dogs.  Research is the key, not scare mongering.

From this link:
*"The Key to Effective, Safe Tea  Tree Oil Use *

Research  shows tea tree oil is safe for dogs and cats and effective  only when it is diluted  correctly – i.e., diluted in large amounts of  water. The recommended ratio is  0.1-1.0 percent strength, to be  dispensed topically. Oral application is not  safe for your pet.
 A few items  are important to note:


Using  undiluted tea tree oil on animals is always a mistake. Unless diluted  correctly, it’s not recommended for cats, and while it’s effective for dogs, never apply it to  raw, open wounds.
In  the U.S., child-resistant packaging or safety warnings aren’t  required for 100  percent tea tree oil as they are in Australia, where  the bulk of the plant is  grown.
 The upshot  is, use care any time you make decisions that will affect  your beloved pets,  just as you do whenever you feed or expose them to  any kind of treatment. When  it comes to treating your dog or cat, it’s  important to be well informed about  safe and effective natural  treatments to avoid expensive trips to the vet, as  well as exposure to  potentially harmful medications and treatments."​


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## cmzaha

reinbeau said:


> Avocado oil is NOT toxic for dogs, here's one link on the subject, there are more.  There's more danger of choking on the pit.  Tea tree oil, undiluted, is dangerous for dogs and cats, however, diluted it is still used as a skin treatment on dogs.  Research is the key, not scare mongering.
> 
> From this link:
> *"The Key to Effective, Safe Tea  Tree Oil Use *
> 
> Research  shows tea tree oil is safe for dogs and cats and effective  only when it is diluted  correctly – i.e., diluted in large amounts of  water. The recommended ratio is  0.1-1.0 percent strength, to be  dispensed topically. Oral application is not  safe for your pet.
> A few items  are important to note:
> 
> 
> Using  undiluted tea tree oil on animals is always a mistake. Unless diluted  correctly, it’s not recommended for cats, and while it’s effective for dogs, never apply it to  raw, open wounds.
> In  the U.S., child-resistant packaging or safety warnings aren’t  required for 100  percent tea tree oil as they are in Australia, where  the bulk of the plant is  grown.
> The upshot  is, use care any time you make decisions that will affect  your beloved pets,  just as you do whenever you feed or expose them to  any kind of treatment. When  it comes to treating your dog or cat, it’s  important to be well informed about  safe and effective natural  treatments to avoid expensive trips to the vet, as  well as exposure to  potentially harmful medications and treatments."​


Doggies, racoons, deer, cats and on and on love Avocados and do not die from them. My cat that was abandoned by a neighbor lived on avocados before I took her in. Animals that eat fruit and veggies love avocados. Do your research and I use small amounts of tea tree oil in my doggie shampoo


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