# Soap Bark



## Justcallmewillie (Oct 27, 2021)

I seem to be on the never ending quest to get more rich bubbly lather with LS without the drying effect of coconut oil.

I do add CA to the lye water and that really cuts the soap scum from forming but now wonder if the addition of CA inhibits the lather to a point.

I recently stumbled upon soap bark powder and curious if anyone had tried this, how much was used per pound of oils. I wonder how it would work;  meaning does it dissolve in the mix, does it sink to the bottom, does it lend a foul odor etc.. it’s very pricey though at $85 per pack


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## AliOop (Oct 27, 2021)

Haven't tried these, but any botanicals added to LS will normally sink to the bottom, or float to the top - and then go moldy on you.

Have you tried using canola or babassu in your LS? Both make wonderful lather. Canola is usually pretty cheap, babassu not so much.


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 28, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> get more rich bubbly lather with LS


Slightly XY, but I guess you already know foamer bottles?


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 28, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Haven't tried these, but any botanicals added to LS will normally sink to the bottom, or float to the top - and then go moldy on you.
> 
> Have you tried using canola or babassu in your LS? Both make wonderful lather. Canola is usually pretty cheap, babassu not so much.


Curious if after sitting a few weeks if the lye would “extract “ the goodness in the powder then strain. Always curious but this would be a very expensive project. Even in liquid form. I have seen babassu oil before snd that’s very $$ also, which is why I didn’t buy. As far as canola goes, how much is suggested?


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 28, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> Slightly XY, but I guess you already know foamer bottles?


I have foamer bottles. I’m referring to lather during use. I’m wanting bubbles out the door


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 28, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> I have seen babassu oil before snd that’s very $$ also, which is why I didn’t buy. As far as canola goes, how much is suggested?


Keep in mind that babaçu is very similar to coconut oil. Replace CO by it if you are coconut allergic, but if it's for the stripping/drying properties, you don't win much.
Canola: It's a base oil, you can use up to 100% of it (though then it's quite castile-like and has only slight lather lead over olive & co.)


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## AliOop (Oct 28, 2021)

Canola percentages would depend on whether you are using high-oleic canola (recommended use up to 70%) or regular canola (recommended up to 60%). You can certainly use it up to 100%; it will be wonderfully clear, but it may not have the lather you want. 

Regarding babassu, it is pricey, but some people feel a marked difference from coconut. Others say it feels the same. 

If you want to try the soap bark, I'd recommend doing an oil infusion and then straining it out before adding the lye solution. Hard to know whether anything will survive the lye. 

Sounds like canola, babassu, and soap bark experiments may be in order.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 28, 2021)

I’ll try canola first cause of cost reasons and I should test the soap bark but it’s so pricey. Babassu…I’ll hold off on that. 
off the top of my tiny head with what I have  lol I thought about doing:
20% PKO
20% coconut 
30% sunflower 
20% castor 
10% hemp


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## AliOop (Oct 28, 2021)

I'd probably put in canola instead of your sunflower; either way, high oleic for those is best if you have access to it. Costco usually has a pretty good price on HO canola, assuming you want to buy that much at one time.

I honestly haven't tried either PKO or hemp in LS so would love to hear what you think of them. PKO is almost identical to CO in its FA profile, but still, some report, and I agree, that PKO is a tad gentler than CO in bar soap. It will be interesting to see if that shows up in LS, too.

FWIW, I've been meaning to search for turkey red castor oil, which is supposedly suitable as a post-cook LS superfat since it is water-soluble. I normally keep a 1 or 2SF for LS to avoid separation, but the turkey red castor oil is supposed to allow for a higher SF without that problem.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 28, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I'd probably put in canola instead of your sunflower; either way, high oleic for those is best if you have access to it. Costco usually has a pretty good price on HO canola, assuming you want to buy that much at one time.
> 
> I honestly haven't tried either PKO or hemp in LS so would love to hear what you think of them. PKO and CO is almost identical to CO in its FA profile, but still, some report, and I agree, that PKO is a tad gentler than CO in bar soap. It will be interesting to see if that shows up in LS, too.
> 
> FWIW, I've been meaning to search for turkey red castor oil, which is supposedly suitable as a post-cook LS superfat since it is water-soluble. I normally keep a 1 or 2SF for LS to avoid separation, but the turkey red castor oil is supposed to allow for a higher SF without that problem.


I’ll have to get some HO canola cause I don’t have any. I made a year round #3 LS a while back but don’t have access on mobile. I’ll get that and write it down or picture it for you. It’s got PKO and coconut plus hemp. With so many different oils in this, I can’t give a yay or nay on having a particular oil in the mix.

i would like to try soap bark but still can’t see past the $85 price for something I’m going to have to steep in oil. It is an emulsifier also so Im unsure how to incorporate this into the mix. I can see it gelling immediately thus throwing a hammer in the crankcase. If I could add to water, then drop in for a thickener, it might work.  I’ve got so much off the wall additives at home I never use so I’m afraid the soap bark would turn into another unused additive.


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## AliOop (Oct 28, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> I’ve got so much off the wall additives at home I never use so I’m afraid the soap bark would turn into another unused additive.


Why, how strange... I certainly don't have any of those in my soap cabinets.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 28, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Why how strange... I certainly don't have any of those in my soap cabinets.


I used some in chemical soap mixes. That became too iffy snd so inconsistent that I stopped trying to make chemical type soaps. It’s why I have 2 pounds of methylcellulose. That stuff works great for a thickener in LS with no hoops to jump over when using it.  I will try reading up on soap bark more to try and get a plan of action because as of now, I have no idea.


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## cmzaha (Oct 28, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I'd probably put in canola instead of your sunflower; either way, high oleic for those is best if you have access to it. Costco usually has a pretty good price on HO canola, assuming you want to buy that much at one time.
> 
> I honestly haven't tried either PKO or hemp in LS so would love to hear what you think of them. PKO and CO is almost identical to CO in its FA profile, but still, some report, and I agree, that PKO is a tad gentler than CO in bar soap. It will be interesting to see if that shows up in LS, too.
> 
> FWIW, I've been meaning to search for turkey red castor oil, which is supposedly suitable as a post-cook LS superfat since it is water-soluble. I normally keep a 1 or 2SF for LS to avoid separation, but the turkey red castor oil is supposed to allow for a higher SF without that problem.


Sure wish you had mentioned this when I was destashing. I sent an almost full gallon of Turkey Red to Hazardous Waste. :-(  I like PKO in LS myself. What I always to do was make batches of Single Oil LS and mix them together until I came up with the feel I liked. You can either do this and track your percentages of each single oil LS you added or do this every time you make LS. If you track the percentages you can make your next batch of LS using the oil percentage of how you mixed the single oil LS combination. Hope this made sense. This was how I came up with the LS end product I preferred.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 28, 2021)

That’s a brilliant idea!


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## AliOop (Oct 28, 2021)

cmzaha said:


> I sent an almost full gallon of Turkey Red to Hazardous Waste. :-(  I like PKO in LS myself.


Rats, I didn't know about it then


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## AliOop (Oct 28, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> I used some in chemical soap mixes.


I hope you know from the Pinocchio faces that I was being quite facetious. I have two 36"x72" cabinets, plus several racks, plus big containers on the floor. There are a fair number of unopened items there...


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 28, 2021)

It’s so easy to get a stock pile of stuff. I don’t have a lot of volume of additives but let’s say plenty as one doesn’t use much of those.
I made a 60% coconut oil soap and while it lathered well, it’s just too drying for my skin. Maybe @Zany_in_CO would have a few tricks for lather up her sleeve.?


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## AliOop (Oct 28, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> It’s so easy to get a stock pile of stuff. I don’t have a lot of volume of additives but let’s say plenty as one doesn’t use much of those.
> I made a 60% coconut oil soap and while it lathered well, it’s just too drying for my skin. Maybe @Zany_in_CO would have a few tricks for lather up her sleeve.?


She probably does... she makes a lot of LS.


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## cmzaha (Oct 28, 2021)

Sorbitol even helps when making LS Paste. 
Stock pile of stuff, we won't talk about how much I destashed after 11 yrs of soaping... and still have to move.


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## AliOop (Oct 28, 2021)

@cmzaha I didn't realize sorbitol was good for LS, too. Do you use the same percentage as when making bar soap?


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 28, 2021)

What does sorbitol do in LS? And is it added to the water? How much per pound of oils?


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## AliOop (Oct 28, 2021)

I'm guessing it would add to lather just like it does in bar soap. Like sugar on steroids, haha. I use it in bar soap at 1% of oils and am hoping cmzaha can give some suggested amounts.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I'm guessing it would add to lather just like it does in bar soap. Like sugar on steroids, haha. I use it in bar soap at 1% of oils and am hoping cmzaha can give some suggested amounts.











						Essential Wholesale and Labs
					

Organic skin and hair products from wholesale to ready to label.




					essentialwholesale.com


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 29, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> I seem to be on the never ending quest to get more rich bubbly lather with LS without the drying effect of coconut oil.


Try 50/50 Lard & PKO (Flakes). It's a family & friends favorite. I call it _"HOG WASH HAIR & BODY SHAMPOO"_.  

*ETA:* That makes an opaque LS.

If you want impressive lather plus clarity, try 65% coconut, 15% castor, 10% rosin aka the "3 Top Guns of Lather in LS".

CASTOR: You can use a higher % in LS than you would in hard bars.

ROSIN saponifies much like an oil but without any resulting glycerin. It
gives a smooth cold cream finish to the lather and also acts as a
detergent and preservative. To calculate - Rosin has the same SAP value as Wheat Germ Oil. (NOTE: May cause contact dermatitis in sensitive
individuals).

*To use*: Rosin has a high melting point. I melt it together with coconut oil ahead of time and pour into individual 2 oz. round cavities. Put in freezer for an hour. Pop out and drop the pucks in a ZipLoc. Store in the freezer until needed.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Try 50/50 Lard & PKO (Flakes). It's a family & friends favorite. I call it _"HOG WASH HAIR & BODY SHAMPOO"_.
> 
> *ETA:* That makes an opaque LS.
> 
> ...


What’s the difference between PKO flakes and the PKO oil?


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 29, 2021)

The flakes are hydrogenated (oleic acid converted to stearic acid), hence it is harder and higher-melting than the “oil” (that is as “oily” as coconut oil is – those who come up with the name coconut oil/palm kernel oil, obviously lived in the tropics).
Little difference form the “bubbly” properties.
ETA: It does make a difference for storage/dosage/weighing (advantage for flakes over lumpy grease), and in confectionery. But SAP is identical. Choose whatever is easier accessible to you.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> The flakes are hydrogenated (oleic acid converted to stearic acid), hence it is harder and higher-melting than the “oil” (that is as “oily” as coconut oil is – those who come up with the name coconut oil/palm kernel oil, obviously lived in the tropics).
> Little difference form the “bubbly” properties.
> ETA: It does make a difference for storage/dosage/weighing (advantage for flakes over lumpy grease), and in confectionery. But SAP is identical. Choose whatever is easier accessible to you.


Sounds like PKO flakes would go into a whipped or cream soap as I can imagine a portion of flaked PKO would form at the bottom or top of otherwise clear LS. Or am I way off the road here?


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 29, 2021)

The flakes will melt up fully, and once liquid you won't see a difference to any other lauric oil. Doubly so after saponification.
To be honest, I have never worked with hydrogenated PKO flakes. It _might or might not_ happen that at _very_ high concentrations (>30ish % _after_ dilution) some potassium stearate might precipitate/opacify the LS – but that'll clear up with dilution. At any reasonable usage rate, PKO flakes should give crystal clear, entirely transparent and near colourless LS.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

ResolvableOwl said:


> The flakes will melt up fully, and once liquid you won't see a difference to any other lauric oil. Doubly so after saponification.
> To be honest, I have never worked with hydrogenated PKO flakes. It _might or might not_ happen that at _very_ high concentrations (>30ish % _after_ dilution) some potassium stearate might precipitate/opacify the LS – but that'll clear up with dilution. At any reasonable usage rate, PKO flakes should give crystal clear, entirely transparent and near colourless LS.


So cool. Thank you for the explanation. What a badass hobby!


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 29, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> What’s the difference between PKO flakes and the PKO oil?


In addition to what @ResolvableOwl said, the flakes are a lot easier to work with vs. regular PKO.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> In addition to what @ResolvableOwl said, the flakes are a lot easier to work with.


So, what’s the max amount for flakes? 30%? Is it used in conjunction with the PKO normal oil? 
example: 30% coconut, 20% PKO flake, 20% castor, 20% sunflower and 10% PKO oil? Or something else?


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 29, 2021)

IMHO, it makes no sense to blend lauric oils. Like saying “Not more than 20% CO” but then having 20% CO + 20% PKO is close to self-deception.
It's not _specifically_ the coconut that's drying/stripping, but (essentially) the _lauric acid_ it brings. And all CO, PKO (unaltered or flakes), babaçu, murumuru… all are roughly comprised half of lauric acid. If your skin dislikes high-lauric soaps, you have to limit the _sum_ of these oils, not each individually.
30% is a reasonable usage rate _if and only if_ the remaining 70% are _non_-lauric oils (like sunflower, castor, olive, canola, etc.). Then you have all options to make your life as easy or as difficult as you want, by subdividing these 30% into PKO flakes alone, or PKO flakes + soft PKO + coconut, or murumuru + tucumã kernel oil, or whatever.


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 29, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> So, what’s the max amount for flakes? 30%?


It's a sub for Coconut Oil. They are in the same category for hardness & lather.


Justcallmewillie said:


> Is it used in conjunction with the PKO normal oil?


No. But some of us old timers might use PKO and Coconut together.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

Wow! Thank you @Zany_in_CO imma order some flakes and see where this leads me.


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## AliOop (Oct 29, 2021)

Justcallmewillie said:


> Essential Wholesale and Labs
> 
> 
> Organic skin and hair products from wholesale to ready to label.
> ...


I actually use powdered sorbitol bc it is cheaper and easier to store than a liquid in a bottle. Here is the one I recently purchased from Amazon. It does make for fantastic lather in bars, and now I'm going to research using it in LS, too.

You are smart to order the PKO flakes. The solid is cheaper, but it's like chipping at rocks to get it out of the container. I may or may not have said a bad word or three as I fussed with it.


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## gww (Oct 29, 2021)

I am curious if malt extract agar would work similar to sorbitol bc?
Cheers
gww


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## AliOop (Oct 29, 2021)

Sorry, I haven't heard of it. Good question for the scientific ones.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I actually use powdered sorbitol bc it is cheaper and easier to store than a liquid in a bottle. Here is the one I recently purchased from Amazon. It does make for fantastic lather in bars, and now I'm going to research using it in LS, too.
> 
> You are smart to order the PKO flakes. The solid is cheaper, but it's like chipping at rocks to get it out of the container. I may or may not have said a bad word or three as I fussed with it.


What were the bad words used? Did they work? I think I read 5% sorbitol somewhere but need to try snd find that article again then put it in here.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I actually use powdered sorbitol bc it is cheaper and easier to store than a liquid in a bottle. Here is the one I recently purchased from Amazon. It does make for fantastic lather in bars, and now I'm going to research using it in LS, too.
> 
> You are smart to order the PKO flakes. The solid is cheaper, but it's like chipping at rocks to get it out of the container. I may or may not have said a bad word or three as I fussed with it.








						Sorbitol
					

Hello fellows,  I'm a newbie to this forum but I've been making soap for 5 years up to now. Few months ago, I read a blog/test report or whatever we call about lather testing in CP with additives from Modern Soapmaking. (If you haven't read it yet, here it is...




					www.soapmakingforum.com


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## earlene (Oct 29, 2021)

gww said:


> I am curious if malt extract agar would work similar to sorbitol bc?
> Cheers
> gww



Malt extract agar is a used to cultivate yeasts & molds in a petrie dish in laboratory environments.  Perhaps the malt extract would work, but why the agar-agar that is used to make the agar, the gelatinous substrate?  Do you have a bunch of it on hand?  Maltose is a disaccharide, as is sucrose (table sugar) and both break down to glucose, so I would expect the effect in soap would be much the same from maltose as from table sugar.

Sorbitol, a sugar alcohol, is said to produce a even more lather, and some soapers prefer using sorbitol over table sugar, and need less of it to produce good results.

Therefore, I do not believe it (MEA) would work the same as sorbitol.  And I'm not sure it would be wise to introduce something meant to foster the growth of yeasts, molds & fungi into soap.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 29, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I actually use powdered sorbitol bc it is cheaper and easier to store than a liquid in a bottle. Here is the one I recently purchased from Amazon. It does make for fantastic lather in bars, and now I'm going to research using it in LS, too.
> 
> You are smart to order the PKO flakes. The solid is cheaper, but it's like chipping at rocks to get it out of the container. I may or may not have said a bad word or three as I fussed with it.


Found this just now and while it primarily pertains to bars, I’m curious if the sorbitol could be increased somewhat in LS because it has to be diluted. Scroll down towards the bottom for the test. 








						Updated: Lather Lovers Additive Tests, One Year Later!
					

Each of the soapmakers made the control formula with the addition of one additive during the week of January 1st, 2012. This ensured all the soaps were of similar age and formula, leaving the additive the only major variable between each bar.




					www.modernsoapmaking.com


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## gww (Oct 29, 2021)

earlene


> Therefore, I do not believe it (MEA) would work the same as sorbitol. And I'm not sure it would be wise to introduce something meant to foster the growth of yeasts, molds & fungi into soap.


The MEA is something I had on hand from when I grew some mushrooms.  Thanks for your answer.
Cheers
gww


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## ResolvableOwl (Oct 30, 2021)

Zany_in_CO said:


> the flakes are a lot easier to work with vs. regular PKO.


My self-defence against PKO (and other too-solid-to-scoop at RT oils) is to melt it up and cast it into easier to dose moulds.


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## Justcallmewillie (Oct 31, 2021)

cmzaha said:


> Sure wish you had mentioned this when I was destashing. I sent an almost full gallon of Turkey Red to Hazardous Waste. :-(  I like PKO in LS myself. What I always to do was make batches of Single Oil LS and mix them together until I came up with the feel I liked. You can either do this and track your percentages of each single oil LS you added or do this every time you make LS. If you track the percentages you can make your next batch of LS using the oil percentage of how you mixed the single oil LS combination. Hope this made sense. This was how I came up with the LS end product I preferred.


I tried this the other evening mixing a 60% coconut LS with a creamier “year round #3” and the suds were perfect. Used at 50/50


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## Zany_in_CO (Oct 31, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I've been meaning to search for turkey red castor oil,


It used to be hard to find but now I see there are many sources, including Walmart. It is lovely stuff.


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## Justcallmewillie (Nov 10, 2021)

Instead of making a whole new mix, I used my very drying and bubbly 60% coconut mix along with my not so bubbly year round #3 at 50/50. To my surprise, the mix turned out slick. I’ll do some more testing but I think I’m on to something wickedly bubbly without drying


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