# Using fresh lemon or lime juice in soap..?



## Jerry S (May 14, 2011)

Has anyone used fresh lemon or lime juice in his or her soaps? I do CP and I have a ton of fresh limes and lemons from my trees and thought about trying it but I don’t know how much to put in and whether I should discount the water with the amount of juice. Maybe the lye water would eliminate the scent of the juice.Maybe the citric acid would compromise the quality of the soap in some way. I've searched around some of the Forums and haven't  seen where anyone has tried this.
Jerry


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## PrairieCraft (May 14, 2011)

It doesn't work.  I love lemon soaps so one of my first experiments was using lemon juice.  The acidity of the juice neutralizes the lye. (that's my basic explanation, someone with more knowledge could explain it better) There are a few threads somewhere here on it.


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## kelleyaynn (May 14, 2011)

Yes, the acid of the juice would neutralize  some of the lye, so you wouldn't end up with enough lye for your recipe.  What you could do is HP the soap and add the juice after the cook. That should work.  Do you want it just for the smell?  The citric acid content of the juice would make the pH of the soap lower, which might make it a bit milder on the skin. I'm not sure if it would affect the saponified fats at all.  But hey, I'd go for it just to see what happens - just with a small batch.


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## soap25 (May 15, 2011)

*lemon lime juice*

Careful!!!!! 

 I used the juice of 4 lemons in water. Adding the lye, the whole thing came  immediatly out of the lye pot. This happened  in the sink , so all I had to do was to rinse the mess down. It was like opening a well shaked soda can   

Adding too much acid after the saponification may cause a chemical reaction. My English is not good enough to explain it - but it will leave a fatty mess.

Put a lot of  juice on soapflakes you will see what happens.

Putting some juice carefully to the lye makes the soap "softer". The lye neutralized the acid and the product - sodiumcitrat = watersoftener. 

My buttermilk-lemon soap (juice of 4 lemons slowly added to the lye water, in 1600 gr. Oils) turned out nice finally. I only superfatted with 4% to compensate the "lost" lye. Sorry, no natural scent left.
 :wink:


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## Jerry S (May 15, 2011)

Ok....lol....enough said, guess if I want lemon scent or lime scent I'll have to stick to the FO's from the soap suppliers...

Thanks everyone for the tips...you've saved me a lot of aggravation. 
Guess I'll just have to juice those lemons and limes for lemonade or use them in pies etc...
Jerry S


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## yoenoess (May 15, 2011)

how about infusing oil with lemon zest? have you guys trying it?


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## soap25 (May 15, 2011)

*lemon zest*

Works fine as a peeling, but still no scent in the final soap. 

But it should help to fix  EOs in the soap, like lemon or orange. FO´s still work far better   

I would rather use the oil on a salad, or in the bathtub....


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## Laurie Gator (May 15, 2011)

yoenoess said:
			
		

> how about infusing oil with lemon zest? have you guys trying it?



A good way to get the "lemon oil" out of the lemon peel would be with high alcohol vodka or with Everclear. This might be a fun idea if you are trying to make a "clear" soap with alcohol.

I make Lemoncello with lemons from friends. I peel the lemons and soak them in Everclear for 2 - 3 months until the peels have lost their color then add a simple sugar solution and let it age for a month or two... YUMMY!


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## Rae (Jul 14, 2017)

soap25 said:


> Careful!!!!!
> 
> I used the juice of 4 lemons in water. Adding the lye, the whole thing came  immediatly out of the lye pot. This happened  in the sink , so all I had to do was to rinse the mess down. It was like opening a well shaked soda can
> 
> ...



 Hey, what if instead of adding Juice to the lye water I infused one of the oils with lemon? I've seen a girl do this with camomile, but im not sure if lemon Will work or if im going to end with sludge. What do you think?


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## dixiedragon (Jul 14, 2017)

You probably won't see much result either way. You may get something out of it if you use the oil for lotion or something, but the lye monster will gobble up any benefits from infusion.

Have you looked into adding powdered citrus peel? Lemon and orange peel keep their color - I haven't tried lime.

ETA: I didn't realize this was such an old thread when I replied. Rae, you may get better responses if you start a new thread and link to this one, b/c a lot of people are just going to read and respond to the original post, vs scrolling down to see your question.


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## cmzaha (Jul 14, 2017)

Laurie Gator said:


> A good way to get the "lemon oil" out of the lemon peel would be with high alcohol vodka or with Everclear. This might be a fun idea if you are trying to make a "clear" soap with alcohol.
> 
> I make Lemoncello with lemons from friends. I peel the lemons and soak them in Everclear for 2 - 3 months until the peels have lost their color then add a simple sugar solution and let it age for a month or two... YUMMY!


Thankyou for the recipe. I love Lemoncello on pound cake and sprinkled over trifles. Yummy yummy. Going to make some with your method.
LOL, I also did not notice it was just an old thread. Guessing Laurie Gator will not see this!!


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## dixiedragon (Jul 14, 2017)

My mom made limoncello. IMO---tastes like Pledge.

But here's a tip to save money - ask your local Chick Filet what days they make lemonade and get their lemon peels. If you want to save some $ and make a A LOT.


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## lsg (Jul 14, 2017)

Soaping101 video on using lemon juice.  .

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFOdi989-aU[/ame]


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## DeeAnna (Jul 14, 2017)

Please see my article about using citrus juice and citric acid in soap: https://classicbells.com/soap/citricAcid.html


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## HaniS (Jul 11, 2019)

I've added Lemon Juice several times to soap. I was actually goggling to learn more than I knew about the result of adding Lemon Juice, and I've found this page. Apart from soap-making process, when a steam-pressure pan is used to extract oils from a herb or a seed, adding lemon helps in dissolving or rather releasing the oil from the seeds, leafs or any other. As for soap making, it depends on the process (full-boiling, salting-out or cold process),  and on the time (or stage) of adding the lemon juice. In cold process, adding lemon juice during saponification will make the ph more to acid. Due to the existence of raw Naoh, the later will help releasing the oil in the juice and turn it into soap. Other ingredients in the juice will be destroyed (or evolve to other substances...). Lemon juice in general will help in breaking down other oils in the recipe, aiding their saponification. On the other hand if the juice is added after the soap is fully cured (or neutralized), the lemon juice will soften the soap and make it more strong and more acid (this is good in a way) provided that the soap is super-fatted.


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## RobinRogers (Jul 11, 2019)

How much lemon juice did you add per pound of oils?


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## amd (Jul 11, 2019)

RobinRogers said:


> How much lemon juice did you add per pound of oils?


This is an old thread - you would be better to do a search on the forum or start a new thread with your question. We "frown upon" necroposting.


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## cmzaha (Jul 11, 2019)

RobinRogers said:


> How much lemon juice did you add per pound of oils?


It would be best to look up the article from DeeAnna which is mentioned in post #14. Lemon juice like Vinegar will add you your superfat if you do not add the extra lye to change it sodium citrate. You cannot lower the ph of soap it is an alkaline product and will turn to mush if to much citric or vinegar is used. Sorry I am not great on sciency terms but I am sure DeeAnna, our resident chemist, will show up sometime today.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 11, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> ...As for soap making, it depends on the process (full-boiling, salting-out or cold process),  and on the time (or stage) of adding the lemon juice. In cold process, adding lemon juice during saponification will make the ph more to acid. Due to the existence of raw Naoh, the later will help releasing the oil in the juice and turn it into soap. Other ingredients in the juice will be destroyed (or evolve to other substances...). Lemon juice in general will help in breaking down other oils in the recipe, aiding their saponification. On the other hand if the juice is added after the soap is fully cured (or neutralized), the lemon juice will soften the soap and make it more strong and more acid (this is good in a way) provided that the soap is super-fatted.



_"...In cold process, adding lemon juice during saponification will make the ph more to acid...."_

Soap is a buffer. If you add lemon juice any time during saponification, regardless of the method used, or even after saponification is over, the soap simply decomposes into fatty acids. The pH does not drop appreciably until most of the soap has decomposed.

_"...Due to the existence of raw Naoh, the later will help releasing the oil in the juice and turn it into soap...."_

The oil in lemon is not a triglyceride. Lemon oil does not saponify.

_"...Lemon juice in general will help in breaking down other oils in the recipe, aiding their saponification...."_

Alkali breaks down the triglycerides into fatty acids which turn into soap. Lemon juice is not an alkali. The citric acid in lemon juice reacts directly with the alkali (NaOH). It does not react with the fats. 

_"...On the other hand if the juice is added after the soap is fully cured (or neutralized), the lemon juice will soften the soap and make it more strong and more acid (this is good in a way) provided that the soap is super-fatted...."_

Lemon juice might soften soap because of the water in the juice and because of the increasing amount of fatty acids created as the soap decomposes from the acid you've added. Adding lemon juice after saponification does NOT make the soap "more strong" and "more acid." Adding any acid to soap decomposes the soap into fatty acids.

I would like to know what sources of information you have studied about the science of soap. Your statements disagree with every reputable source I have studied about soap chemistry.


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## RobinRogers (Jul 11, 2019)

amd said:


> This is an old thread - you would be better to do a search on the forum or start a new thread with your question. We "frown upon" necroposting.


Then do NOT email me with the post! I checked the date on the post and it was today, so I responded. I’m about to quit this forum because you repeatedly email me with stuff and when I respond, you chastise me. Handle your forum better and there won’t be necroposting!!!!


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## HaniS (Jul 11, 2019)

Thanks DeeAnna for the information. Regarding the last question, I've been making soap since 1993. I've read so much about soap and soap chemistry from different books downloaded from the internet, forums and so on. Any conclusion that I came up with is the result of both reading and experimenting. Anyways, I am always open for any corrections or new insights.. Regarding Lemon, it seems that there's something in the Lemon juice - - other than water - that dissolves or soften the soap. Yes, maybe it's citric Acid. Maybe it's something more. I don't know really for sure. I always add Lemon juice to soap. I'd want to get the benefits of it in soap, and also I like how it helps with easing the process all together. I think yes it's true that essential oil of Lemon is not a Triglyceride. But can you really be sure that the content of Lemon juice is really 0 or triglyceride free? You also mentioned that Naoh reacts with Citric Acid which is (an acid).. what would the result be of reacting an alkali such as Naoh with an Acid like citric other than soap..? (
C3H5O(COOH)3 +3NaOH>Na3C3H5(COO)3 +3H2O
) . There's a tiny little soapy particle in their, don't you think?
 cheers

After reading your comment again, I see that much of it actually goes along with what I've mentioned such as ph dropping and so on.

Regarding your first comment, the time of adding Lemon juice and the method used really makes a deference. I know this from experiment.. It's different if the juice (that might contain oil by the way..) is added while the Naoh has neutralized with acids or not..

Thanks RobinRogers for your kind question. I usually add the juice of 5 lemons per 3 kilos of soap. I add half of the juice during the final stages of screening with salt. Then I add the rest after I make sure that the salt-water has washed away any excessive Naoh and other impurities. This is what I "think" that happens by observation and result. When the juice is added during salting-out, the water part in the juice joins the salt-water below. And if there's any remaining of an Acid that came from the juice, it joins the soap layer above.. Of course it's obvious that some of the lemon oil joins the soap, because the soap smells Lemon afterwards.. Another thing, is that the other part of the juice is added after I make sure that the excessive Naoh has left the soap. I switch from boiling to steam-bathing. I place the soap in a water or steam bath allowing the excessive water to evaporate slowly and the soap to neutralize further. Also during boiling-salting out, and after I add the juice, I drop the lemons with its peel in the pan, so that I can extract any oil from the peels. The heat and the salt in the water helps in "expelling?" the oil in the peels, and if there's any in the inside of the lemons.


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## amd (Jul 11, 2019)

RobinRogers said:


> Then do NOT email me with the post! I checked the date on the post and it was today, so I responded. I’m about to quit this forum because you repeatedly email me with stuff and when I respond, you chastise me. Handle your forum better and there won’t be necroposting!!!!



I understand your frustration, but the emails are not something I can control. YOU control that in your account and notification settings. Please spend some time getting to know the forum and the culture before you throw a tantrum.


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## geniash (Jul 11, 2019)

If there is enough replies then there is enough interest imo. I was thinking of using the fresh lemon juice for the soap but I would do it slightly different. DeeAnna - let us know if this is acceptable/will produce similar results:
First neutralize all acid in lemon juice. Add couple drops of phenolphtalein (turns bright pink in basic substances) and slowly add NaOH solution to the juice until it turns pink. When it is pink, add a splash of lemon juice to bring it back to the acidic side. Use in the soaping as a substitute of water/fruit juice.

Question is - is phenolphtalein (couple drops literally) safe for skin use?


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## newlee (Jul 11, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> Regarding your first comment, the time of adding Lemon juice and the method used really makes a deference. I know this from experiment.. It's different if the juice (that might contain oil by the way..) is added while the Naoh has neutralized with acids or not..


Interesting process. The soap looks good and your house must smell like lemons on soap day.


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## HaniS (Jul 11, 2019)

Thank you very much newlee. I value Lemon very much. I eat it (with peels) in olive oil and little salt to detoxify. I also place a sliced piece of lemon with little salt on it in the house sometimes for disinfection (I learned that from a video on youtube). The last bar of olive-lemon (with other oils) helped clear out skin allergy which I suffered from for more than a year now.

I'd like to add something here regarding the process. I've noticed that adding lemon juice to soap during salting-out process improved the process. More impurities separated from the soap. But i'd also like to bring the attention that adding too much lemon juice to a cold process will turn the soap (meshy). But with salting out, that matter which formed and seems to turn the soap meshy washes down to the salt-water layer..


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## cmzaha (Jul 11, 2019)

RobinRogers said:


> Then do NOT email me with the post! I checked the date on the post and it was today, so I responded. I’m about to quit this forum because you repeatedly email me with stuff and when I respond, you chastise me. Handle your forum better and there won’t be necroposting!!!!


It actually was not you who responded to the old thread and I also answered it as did DeeAnna.


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## RobinRogers (Jul 11, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> Thanks RobinRogers for your kind question. I usually add the juice of 5 lemons per 3 kilos of soap. I add half of the juice during the final stages of screening with salt. Then I add the rest after I make sure that the salt-water has washed away any excessive Naoh and other impurities. This is what I "think" that happens by observation and result. When the juice is added during salting-out, the water part in the juice joins the salt-water below. And if there's any remaining of an Acid that came from the juice, it joins the soap layer above.. Of course it's obvious that some of the lemon oil joins the soap, because the soap smells Lemon afterwards.. Another thing, is that the other part of the juice is added after I make sure that the excessive Naoh has left the soap. I switch from boiling to steam-bathing. I place the soap in a water or steam bath allowing the excessive water to evaporate slowly and the soap to neutralize further. Also during boiling-salting out, and after I add the juice, I drop the lemons with its peel in the pan, so that I can extract any oil from the peels. The heat and the salt in the water helps in "expelling?" the oil in the peels, and if there's any in the inside of the lemons.



You are way over my head here! I’m relatively new to soapmakimg and have only done CP soap. I’m not sure what salting out means. Completely confused. Maybe I can experiment with that after I’ve experimented with salt! I am now in the process of experimenting with different oil combinations. I want a good standard vegan bar and also a good standard bar with lard. I have developed a shampoo bar and a shaving bar that I’m very happy with.


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## HaniS (Jul 11, 2019)

I am happy to share and explain in details the salting-out process and when it's good to use it, its downfalls and how to correct it. I've started a thread somewhere else to share that, but It's ok to explain it here in this page or anywhere else.

As for vegetable oil recipe, I like to base the oils with 40+ olive oil. Less or more is fine. Adding Coconut Oil improves foam and lather, because Olive Oil alone produces a soap with little foam. Also Coconut Oil makes the soap harder (Pure Olive Oil soap is hard but it dissolves faster..). Little stearic Acid gives great stability to soap and helps in making it more elastic and easy to cut, also lasts longer. Castor Oil is a marvelous addition to all that, because it eases the heat of both olive and coconut making the soap warm (not hot). You can also add Almond oil (instead of coconut, or 50-50 of the volume of coconut...). suggested ratio: olive oil 40 %, coconut (or almond or both) 30%, Castor 25% and 5% Stearic Acid (beeswax works well too instead). Since that this page is mainly about lemon. If you wish to add lemon oil - provided that it's CP - essential oil of lemon is added before the soap is poured into molds. Lemon juice does not work well with this recipe on CP..


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## earlene (Jul 16, 2019)

RobinRogers said:


> You are way over my head here! I’m relatively new to soapmakimg and have only done CP soap. I’m not sure what salting out means. Completely confused. Maybe I can experiment with that after I’ve experimented with salt! I am now in the process of experimenting with different oil combinations. I want a good standard vegan bar and also a good standard bar with lard. I have developed a shampoo bar and a shaving bar that I’m very happy with.




You can read more about salting out here with videos and so forth:  https://classicbells.com/soap/saltOutTut.asp

It's a fun, but lengthy process, but not one I would recommend if you are still brand new to soap making.


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## HaniS (Jul 16, 2019)

earlene said:


> You can read more about salting out here with videos and so forth:  https://classicbells.com/soap/saltOutTut.asp
> 
> It's a fun, but lengthy process, but not one I would recommend if you are still brand new to soap making.



Salting-out is not about having fun as far as I know  It's not about re-batching neither (such as in the video) though it works for re-batching - but adds salt to re-batched soap... Salting-out soap has a main purpose. Salting-out process removes an NAOH residue which is Soda Ash (that can cause irritation if it stays in soap), and also get rid of any excessive NAOH that did not react with oil (or oils) in a Cold-process. Also, the salt-water (takes down) any other impurities from soap, leaving on top very pure soap. It's true that it takes longer time because it's a process added to Cold-process. And sometimes it requires more than one session to achieve full purity. It's not a complicated process though. The downside of Salting-out is that some salt stays in the soap. I remove it by subjecting soap to hot-water bath with adding little water. The water and the remaining salt makes a layer in the bottom after the soap cake cools down (along with any remaining impurities), and it's removed. This process can be repeated until the soap is very pure, followed by super-fatting (adding little oil to balance ph and make it more acidic!


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## earlene (Jul 16, 2019)

I may find more fun in it than you do, then.  While completing the purpose as I set out to achieve, I enjoyed myself.  I got some nice soaps and the kids really liked that the soap could float.

But thank you for your experience as well.

There are others here who have salted out soap and say they will never do it again, of course.  And because it is so time and resource consuming (gas, electricity, water, salt, sore feet, hours and several days of follow-up work), I probably won't do it many more times than I already have, which is only twice.  But I still say it was fun.  Of course fun was not my purpose.  But still trying out new processes in my soapmaking journey has mostly been fun for me and fun is fun so I'll stick to my story on that.


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## HaniS (Jul 16, 2019)

earlene said:


> I may find more fun in it than you do, then.  While completing the purpose as I set out to achieve, I enjoyed myself.  I got some nice soaps and the kids really liked that the soap could float.
> 
> But thank you for your experience as well.
> 
> There are others here who have salted out soap and say they will never do it again, of course.  And because it is so time and resource consuming (gas, electricity, water, salt, sore feet, hours and several days of follow-up work), I probably won't do it many more times than I already have, which is only twice.  But I still say it was fun.  Of course fun was not my purpose.  But still trying out new processes in my soapmaking journey has mostly been fun for me and fun is fun so I'll stick to my story on that.



It's not that I don't have fun with soap making. I become thrilled when I end up having good soap. As I've said I am pointing out to the purpose of salting out. Sometimes it's necessary especially with some kinds of oils that have Glycerin such as Olive Oil. Salting-out olive oil soap also purifies the glycerin and it can be returned to soap in a pure form.. "note: I didn't work-out the salting out process to please kids  I make sure to present a soap that is Alkaline-free to my clients - or anyone I give soap to. Also salting-out makes hard-lasting and good-for hair-bars!) Cheers


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## earlene (Jul 16, 2019)

I disagree that salting out is necessary with olive oil soap.  Pure olive oil soap is fine as it is, IMO.  Many many people love Castile soap that's never been salted out.  Glycerin is a desirable ingredient in soap; there is no reason we should try and remove it from the soap in the first place.

The reasons I have chosen to salt out soap was to get rid of ugly colors, ugly fragrances (or odors) and to learn the process because I like to learn new things.  The first time I ended up with lovely pale colored soap that no longer smelled of ill-chosen fragrance oils that offended, and it was really nice soap as it turned out.   Plus, as I said, kids liked soap that floats. 

However, one thing I would like to point out if anyone ever comes back to read this: 

It  has been pointed out that if one starts with really bad soap to start with, the resulting salted out soap may not end up being really nice soap at the end of the process.  It may be paler and not smell as offensive, but if it was bad soap to begin with maybe it would still be bad soap.  I can attest to that fact from my own experience with the second salting out I did.  The second time I did it, I thought I'd try and find out if salting out would remove the impurities of rancidity.  It did not eliminate the odors of rancidity.  Not even after several repeated sessions of salting out.  My conclusion, based on my experience:  Rancidity or  DOS cannot be reversed or salted out.  It was a total waste of resources, other than teaching me that it was a total waste of resources.

But it was fun learning how to do the process and to obtain a successful outcome from the good soap that I used the first time.  And of course, to learn that it's a waste of time to try and save soap that has gone rancid.

Now, back on topic: about using lemon juice.  

I have used lemon juice in soap several times.  Not fresh though.  Fresh lemons are far too dear here where I live, so I used bottled lemon juice (pure lemon).   But the way I used it was as water replacement for lye solution.  And as long as I adjusted the lye calculations to offset the acidity of the lemon juice, it never made my soap mushy.

And I did test lemon juice on solid soap to see what it would do.  It was a few years ago and I don't quite recall why I even tried that, just curious I guess.  The solid soap did soften quite a lot, but it took a couple of days even though I had cut it up first.  In retrospect I sort of think of that as a silly little experiment I did with no real purpose in mind other than to see what would happen.


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## HaniS (Jul 16, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> It's not that I don't have fun with soap making. I become thrilled when I end up having good soap. As I've said I am pointing out to the purpose of salting out. Sometimes it's necessary especially with some kinds of oils that have Glycerin such as Olive Oil. Salting-out olive oil soap also purifies the glycerin and it can be returned to soap in a pure form.. "note: I didn't work-out the salting out process to please kids  I make sure to present a soap that is Alkaline-free to my clients - or anyone I give soap to. Also salting-out makes hard-lasting and good-for hair-bars!) Cheers



I'd like to add another note, that this thread is mainly about adding fresh lemon juice to soap. The most efficient (if not the only) process to make that work is again the salting-out,  (which can be very frustrating by the way!). I can count hundreds of times making salting-out before I figured it out along almost 10 years or so..

Thank you very much. That was a great reply. I'd like to ask you a question, and depending on your reply, I can become encouraged to explain more about the process. Did you make cold process soap, and when you got the soap you were not pleased because It's still caustic?

From your latest answer, I can tell that you went half the way in salting-out. You got rid of odor, etc. But you have "consumed resources". This basically means 2 things. You applied heat or prolonged heating sessions, which is not the way to make salting-out work. The other point has to do with (Spagyrics) ... I don't know if you've heard about that. It's basically an aspect involved with advanced chemical preparations, that includes purifying, separating and then joining again. This is not complicated though as it might sound. But with this concept, the salting-out process is carried on with to further dimension (without working hard or heating too much, it only needs a little bit of patience and contemplation). As a result that which is called (impurities) such as the proteins, starch and Glycerin are purified and it's evolved into a more fine and pure form and returned to soap, along with Glycerin.


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## earlene (Jul 16, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> Thank you very much. That was a great reply. I'd like to ask you a question, and depending on your reply, I can become encouraged to explain more about the process. Did you make cold process soap, and when you got the soap you were not pleased because It's still caustic?




Do you mean me?  I don't really need more explanation about the process.  It is explained very well here on SMF and in DeeAnna's tutorial as well as others here who also wrote extensively about the process.  (DeeAnna's tutorial is linked above in post # 29.  But if you want to expand on the process of salting out, I encourage you to start a new thread to maintain topic integrity. 

To answer your question, though, no, my soap was not caustic.  Ugly colors and ugly fragrances were the result of poor color and fragrance oil choices, not of being lye heavy (which the soaps in question were not).


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## HaniS (Jul 16, 2019)

Thank you Grandmother. I thought so, you don't need more explanation! cheers


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## earlene (Jul 16, 2019)

I think what we may have here is a perception issue, in that my perception of what salting out is and your perception of what salting out is are different.  My perception is based on what I have learned here at SMF and some of what I have read elsewhere in a bit of research to the extent of interest at the time.  My perception is that salting out is a process utilizing already made soap (CP or HP, doesn't matter).  That is what I got out of what I learned here.  Of course, I know that sometimes perceptions are slightly skewed, sometimes faulty and occasionally quite ill-conceived.

In re-reading some of your above posts, it seems to me that what you describe as salting out is more along the lines of what I perceive to be a process of making soap from scratch done primarily by commercial soap makers in large vats starting with oils and lye adding them separately; not utilizing already made soap at all, and that the process of salting out is simply a part of the process and not the complete process.

Whereas, my perception is that salting out when used with already made soap, that is all of the process and ends with completion of the end goal of separating the neat soap from the debris left at the bottom of the pot.

Basically,  I think it was when I re-read the following that I realized we were talking about two different things:


Hani smaik said:


> adding fresh lemon juice to soap. The most efficient (if not the only) process to make that work is again the salting-out



It had not hit me before that you were saying the only way to make soap with lemon juice was via the salting out process.  (That's not even true though because I have made CP soap with lemon juice as the liquid in my lye solution with success several times.  And no salting out was involved.)

But anyway, since your topic really is more about the salting out process as you understand it, I do think a new thread would be the way to go to get this clarified and to continue the discussion.  That is, if you are so inclined.  Perhaps you could talk more about the other steps prior to and beyond the part that is simply the salting out step.

I would certainly be interested in learning more about the additional aspects of the soap pot boiling method (my perception of what your are talking about - I don't really know the proper term for it in order to differentiate from my perception and yours on this topic.)  But perhaps I truly am misunderstanding the term.  The threads about salting out here at SMF with which I am familiar all seem to me to re-enforce my perception, so unless my comprehension is faulty, I think more folks here than just I would be a tad confused by your statement that our salting out processes are not complete.


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## HaniS (Jul 16, 2019)

earlene said:


> I think what we may have here is a perception issue, in that my perception of what salting out is and your perception of what salting out is are different.  My perception is based on what I have learned here at SMF and some of what I have read elsewhere in a bit of research to the extent of interest at the time.  My perception is that salting out is a process utilizing already made soap (CP or HP, doesn't matter).  That is what I got out of what I learned here.  Of course, I know that sometimes perceptions are slightly skewed, sometimes faulty and occasionally quite ill-conceived.
> 
> In re-reading some of your above posts, it seems to me that what you describe as salting out is more along the lines of what I perceive to be a process of making soap from scratch done primarily by commercial soap makers in large vats starting with oils and lye adding them separately; not utilizing already made soap at all, and that the process of salting out is simply a part of the process and not the complete process.
> 
> ...



Thank you Earlene for your wonderful reply. When Lemon juice is counted in the water/ lye solution, Naoh destroys contents other than oil in the juice. I understand that this is a communication process. And communication can take some time and effort for the information to be exchanged properly. Beside Soap Making, I have been working with accordance to the Alchemical concepts. Alchemy is more like chemistry, and it forms the beginning of chemistry. But before the chemists started to work with advanced instruments such as Ph testing, equipment that are capable of listing the elements or substances within a matter or solution, Alchemists used their imagination or insight.  This is why if one reads well in Alchemy you will find out that it describes the reaction of matters into more subtle form such as electromagnetism and other.

When I make soap, I take in account other processes that are happening during the reactions (and different processes) such as fermentation, digestion and calcination. I am sorry if this sounds complicated, it's not my aim to make it complicated. When I add lemon juice to soap with salting-out. I also subject the soap to different processes and concepts, aiming to extract what is refereed to in Alchemy or Spagery as Quintessence or Philosophic Essence, meaning that the extract contains all that which is in Lemon Juice, but it has been separated, purified and joined again into a higher level or energy (and purity.

Now again, it's not my aim to argue or prove my point of view. All that I have in mind is 26 years of working with Alchemy and Soap. After making thousands of batches, and extending soap to more and more people, I started to notice (delicate) differences between different processes.  Think about it for a moment. Why do some soap factories boil soap using 800 degrees temperature? Why many (if not all) soap factories use salting-out with brine salt as a main process (along with other)? Why some factories spend 40 days in order to finish the soap batch? Try taking a Cold-process Soap to a laboratory.. You might be surprised that the soap contains Soda Ash (Sodium carbonate) and free Naoh. If heating soap over 3-5 hours over moderate temperature produces good soap, why did (humans) develop boiling and salting out processes. Did you know that the original castile soap making included boiling with large amount of water and salt for several hours?

I can't say too much about this at once. CP is not a perfect process, it does not produce high quality soap. Full-boiling is not sufficient to produce high quality soap neither - that goes for (salting-out alone) too. Again what I do is combining different aspects thus processes.

Regarding whether the salting-out process is complete or not. Salting-out alone, as it's known produces soap with salt left in it... There are mainly two aspects that is associated with a process that when considered, the extra salt is removed and any remaining are destroyed by heat gradually without destroying the Sodium-stearate or other structure of soap - the process is hot-water bath and subjecting soap to hot water vapor by which hydrogen (along with oxygen) aids in digesting soap..


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## HaniS (Jul 16, 2019)

Thanks again Earline for spending this much time replying to my posts. I was reading your replies again, and I thought of commenting further on some of what you wrote. It's true that what I am talking about as in Salting-out is very much similar to what is being done in commercial factories. Some people might misinterpret the term "commercial" though. Some of the famous soap / brands produce very high quality soap, made of vegetable oils such as coconut and palm oil. Their soap is of very high grade of saponification and purity. This means that the soap is very-well cooked and cured (neutralized). The impurities are removed and made pure again like Glycerin, and other acids such as Myristic Acid and Oleic Acid, and it's incorporated into the soap again. Regarding the steaming or the hot-water bath that I make.. This is similar to what the soap factory does. Factories that make high quality soap incorporate injecting water vapor into the extruder. This is usually done to soap curds, that is a pure form of soap obtained from high-temperature boiling and salting out processes. The purpose of injecting with water vapor is to utilize the hydrogen in the water vapor to destroy the remaining of Nacl (or salt). Otherwise salt of Nacl cannot be destroyed (broken into Na and Cl) by heat alone - not less that 800 degree which can destroy the soap bond too (soap is also a salt or salts). After the steam or vapor operation is over, glycerin, free acid such as Oliec can be added (similar to super-fating), essential oils, perfumes or other.

What I do is very much similar to the factory processes but slightly different. Full-boiling neutralizes acids (free acids) with base (Naoh) and produces soap very fast. Full-boiling separates that part of Glycerin reaction / bond to Naoh and settles it in the bottom. But full-boiling does not separate other impurities from soap. Also it takes long time for Glycerin to recover from the (spent lye) solution.

What I do is semi-boiling, followed by few fermenting sessions (similar to CP during gel phase). The soap is heated and it's boiled once (or the fire is turned of before boiling). The soap is left to ferment and neutralize until the second day (or later). The salt in this method is added at the very beginning, along with the oils and the lye solution. The soap goes into a cycle or phases that is associated with (what I do or add what and how much as in salt and Naoh, and the temperature applied). What I do different than the factory is at the "Killing Stage". Killing Stage is a common term in manufacturing soap and it refers mainly to destroying the glycerin, or breaking down the triglyceride bond in the oil... I don't make full-boiling. Instead once the soap floats over salt-water I turn of the fire... the Glycerin starts to separate voluntarily while the soap is cooling down. Glycerin separates but remains (glued) to the soap below and does not become dissolved with spent lye water and salt. The layer that contains glycerin looks semi-transparent, it's mostly consisting of Glycerin reaction / bond to Naoh along with Sodium Stearate (sodium stearate tends to react with Naoh and settles in the bottom too, and it bonds well with Glycerin and some salt (Nacl) too).. Other impurities rest below the Glycerin layer.

There are usually 4 stages involved with soap/ making and purifying : Strong Phase, Weak Phase, Fitting and Killing. The 4 stages are repeated if more purification and further saponification (neutralizing) is desired. After this comes the steaming or vaporizing stage or stages.

I am happy to share more details about this process, and to start a new thread for it, provided that there's enough interest and understanding to the necessity of these processes. Otherwise it will sound as a long and unnecessary process. The goal of these 4 stages is to obtain high quality pure soap.

Here's a link that helps having an idea about this: (yet it's easier to make than what it sounds like)

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2567381


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## StoneCottageSoapworks (Jul 17, 2019)

earlene said:


> Now, back on topic: about using lemon juice.
> 
> I have used lemon juice in soap several times.  Not fresh though.  Fresh lemons are far too dear here where I live, so I used bottled lemon juice (pure lemon).   But the way I used it was as water replacement for lye solution.  And as long as I adjusted the lye calculations to offset the acidity of the lemon juice, it never made my soap mushy.
> 
> And I did test lemon juice on solid soap to see what it would do.  It was a few years ago and I don't quite recall why I even tried that, just curious I guess.  The solid soap did soften quite a lot, but it took a couple of days even though I had cut it up first.  In retrospect I sort of think of that as a silly little experiment I did with no real purpose in mind other than to see what would happen.



Earlene,  Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap meaning that less of the oils would saponify giving you what amounts to a larger superfat which would make the soap softer to cut and not have as good characteristics as your normal soap formula might have.  Besides, the Lemon "scent" won't hold up at all because it is a top note and citrus essential oils are notorious for disappearing from the soap scent in a matter of days or weeks!


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## DeeAnna (Jul 17, 2019)

_"...Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap..."_

You're thinking an acid + soap reaction is the same as an acid + base reaction, and it's not. Soap is a buffer, not a base. Adding acid to soap doesn't greatly reduce the pH unless you add so much acid that the buffering ability of the soap is overwhelmed.

When you add acid to the soap pot, yes, it reacts with NaOH. This will increase the superfat if you don't add extra NaOH to compensate, as many of us know to do. 

When you add acid to soap, it decomposes into fatty acids and that also increases the superfat.


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## cmzaha (Jul 17, 2019)

StoneCottageSoapworks said:


> Earlene,  Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap meaning that less of the oils would saponify giving you what amounts to a larger superfat which would make the soap softer to cut and not have as good characteristics as your normal soap formula might have.  Besides, the Lemon "scent" won't hold up at all because it is a top note and citrus essential oils are notorious for disappearing from the soap scent in a matter of days or weeks!


I do think you have a wrong skew of what Earlene was saying. I understood it as she cut up some cured soap and put them in lemon juice to see how long it would take to dissolve. I could be wrong but I am sure Earlene will straighten me out.  

Just because you use a higher superfat does not mean you lower ph. Oils do vary in ph so some combinations will make a difference in ph. The ph of soap runs between 8-11, after all, it is an alkaline product and cannot be neutral. 

You are not lowering the ph of soap by using lemon juice. Earlene mentions she used lemon juice as full water replacement by compensating for the juice with the extra lye needed to react with the lemon juice to create sodium citrate, which will help cut soap scum.



cmzaha said:


> I do think you have a wrong skew of what Earlene was saying. I understood it as she cut up some cured soap and put them in lemon juice to see how long it would take to dissolve. I could be wrong but I am sure Earlene will straighten me out.
> 
> Just because you use a higher superfat does not mean you lower ph. Oils do vary in ph so some combinations will make a difference in ph. The ph of soap runs between 8-11, after all, it is an alkaline product and cannot be neutral.
> 
> You are not lowering the ph of soap by using lemon juice. Earlene mentions she used lemon juice as full water replacement by compensating for the juice with the extra lye needed to react with the lemon juice to create sodium citrate, which will help cut soap scum.



ETA: OOPS DeeAnna answered much better than me before I saw her post.

Double OOPS, I meant to edit not quote my post... and cannot figure out how to delete it. As we all know I am really new to the forum....


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## DeeAnna (Jul 17, 2019)

Don't delete it, Carolyn. You're saying something different than I am and I think it's worth reading. Thanks for sharing your perspective -- I think it's valuable!


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## StoneCottageSoapworks (Jul 17, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> _"...Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap..."_
> 
> You're thinking an acid + soap reaction is the same as an acid + base reaction, and it's not. Soap is a buffer, not a base. Adding acid to soap doesn't greatly reduce the pH unless you add so much acid that the buffering ability of the soap is overwhelmed.
> 
> ...



 No, DeAnna, I am not thinking "acid + soap"!  Oils are made up of fatty acids which are turned into soap by using a base, in this case the base is NaOH.  The amount of this reaction is dependent upon how much of the acidic Lemon Juice is used in your formula.  It will lower the pH the base solution (lye + water) and therefore not saponify as much of the fatty acid based oils as the original solution would, without the addition of the Lemon Juice.  That does change the superfat of the soap and would also change the consistency to some extent.  Other than the fatty acids of the oils, I myself, would not add anything else that is acidic like Lemon Juice to a formulation.


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## HaniS (Jul 17, 2019)

1- If Lemon juice was added instead of water in the lye/water solution, it will neutralize some of the Naoh. This means that the water/lye concentration becomes less than that which is required to neutralize the oil  (or oils) and turn it into soap. Depending on other factors, This MIGHT lower PH (increase acidity) in the end product.

2- If lemon juice was added after the soap has fully neutralized, and there is no more free Naoh, the Lemon juice will break down the soap bond. This will result in having Free Acid again (from acid that was broken from soap) and Free Naoh that became free because it has lost its bond with the Acid that came from the oil (or oils).

The outcome of this is soap that did not achieve adequate level of neutralizing. But it can also mean that the soap became Super Fated; sometimes super fat is required to achieve and can be an advantage..

So on the other hand, adding Lemon Juice might not affect PH because both became free (free acid) and Base (free Naoh) and both remained in the mixture or the body of soap.

This also means that if the quantity of lemon juice that is being added is high, both the acidity of Lemon Juice, and the advanced acid over base structure of soap (because of point 1 above) will make the soap more acid (lower Ph - increased acidity).


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## StoneCottageSoapworks (Jul 17, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> 1- If Lemon juice was added instead of water in the lye/water solution, it will neutralize some of the Naoh. This means that the water/lye concentration becomes less than that which is required to neutralize the oil  (or oils) and turn it into soap. This MIGHT lower PH (increase acidity) in the end product.
> 
> 2- If lemon juice was added after the soap has fully neutralized, and there is no more free Naoh, the Lemon juice will break down the soap bond. This will result in having Free Acid again (from acid that was broken from soap) and Free Naoh that became free because it has lost its bond with the Acid that came from the oil (or oils).
> 
> So on the other hand, adding Lemon Juice might not affect PH because both became free (free acid) and Base (free Naoh) and both remained in the mixture or the body of soap.



Hani, 1 - YES, you are correct and that is what I have been saying.  I will add to that by saying the amount that the pH might lower, could be very small but it still lowers the pH!  If you were to make a batch of soap with slightly less NaOH in the formula, the soap created will have a lower pH (may be very small but it IS lower!)  If you kept making more and more batches with the same amount of ingredients EXCEPT the water which you increase each time, you then  make a soap with a lower pH until you reach the point that the pH is too low and the NaOH is being diluted by too much water and it will not turn into soap at all!
2. -  YES, you are correct again!  However, Lemon Juice would react with the NaOH and neutralize some of it by lowering it's pH so some it is no longer part of the functional NaOH!  The rest still is and still is "connected" to the fatty acids and it "doing its job"!


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## HaniS (Jul 17, 2019)

StoneCottageSoapworks said:


> Hani, 1 - YES, you are correct and that is what I have been saying.  I will add to that by saying the amount that the pH might lower, could be very small but it still lowers the pH!  If you were to make a batch of soap with slightly less NaOH in the formula, the soap created will have a lower pH (may be very small but it IS lower!)  If you kept making more and more batches with the same amount of ingredients EXCEPT the water which you increase each time you make a soap with a lower pH until you reach the point that the pH is too low but the NaOH being diluted by too much water and it will not turn into soap at all!
> 2. -  YES, you are correct again!  However, Lemon Juice would react with the NaOH and neutralize some of it by lowering it's pH so some it is no longer part of the functional NaOH!  The rest still is and still is "connected" to the fatty acids and it "doing its job"!



Yes, very much true.. sometimes I look again at what I've written and correct as necessary. I looked again at what I wrote, and I've found that I wrote "some" in point one. My aim of this is that the posts can serve as a source of information to someone so they ought to be a bit accurate. Please do correct me if you find anything else that needs correction. Sometimes we forget about an aspect or more..


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## StoneCottageSoapworks (Jul 17, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> Yes, very much true.. sometimes I look again at what I've written and correct as necessary. I looked again at what I wrote, and I've found that I wrote "some" in point one. My aim of this is that the posts can serve as a source of information to someone so they ought to be a bit accurate. Please do correct me if you find anything else that needs correction. Sometimes we forget about an aspect or more..


Hani, I think I was editing my reply to you when you wrote another reply quoting me!  I had edited my reply to you and put in a comma in this phrase:  "EXCEPT the water which you increase each time, you then make a soap" etc. because in reading it back to myself it seemed to make sense then when I reread it again, I realized that I needed to "divide" those two parts of the sentence!  Sorry for the confusion! (and I just edited this reply because I didn't spell "sense" correctly!  LOL!)


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## HaniS (Jul 18, 2019)

No problem  (reply to StoneCottageSoapworks) Actually I was reading that part again yesterday in your reply about increasing water each time. I'd like to discuss, talk about that with you, or understand more about what you mean. When I relate it to my understanding, it's that the Hydrogen and Oxygen in the Water + the Heat decomposes salts. And since that Naoh is a salt, and soap is a salt, they decompose with those factors. I've been making soap for many years now (since 1993!). What I do now mostly is making soap as an Art. I don't pay attention to the time spent or the cost, but I work on and like to see an exceptional result. Sometimes it takes one complete year to finish a batch (Alchemical work). Anyways before I write too much in here, in this thread (because it's a different subject), what I want to say is that I've created a new thread which is titled How to Make Pure Olive Oil Soap. I am writing about any of my finding there.. Please drop a note or reply in there if you like about that part about the water,, thank you very much.


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## Bladesmith (Jul 18, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> I've created a new thread which is titled How to Make Pure Olive Oil Soap. I am writing about any of my finding there



I was curious to read more about how you make soap but I have not been able to find this thread.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 18, 2019)

There are a lot of questionable "science facts" being presented in this thread. While I don't expect to change the minds of the posters making these statements, I want to give fair warning to everyone else slogging through this thread -- 

Many of the statements being presented here contain very small kernels of truth wrapped up in a big dollop of pseudo science and just plain hooey.* Caveat emptor.*


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## HaniS (Jul 18, 2019)

Hi DeeAnna, First of all (and last of all)  All respect to you, to this forum and its members. I am not really encouraged or have any need or cause to go through personal conflicts, or "sharp" discussions of any kind. I wonder if you are an Admin in this forum so that you are legible to send "warnings"; I think you are.  What I would say "gently"  is that if you are finding anything in the posts that is untrue or unscientific, how come, or why don't you simply reply and write down the "true" or "scientific" reply instead of generalizing? Why don't you be more specific and address the matter within context..? Which part specifically that is hooey? 

And what about "slogging" why not call it excitement, or joy to communicate, exchange information, learn and educate if possible?


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## cmzaha (Jul 18, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> Hi DeeAnna, First of all (and last of all)  All respect to you, to this forum and its members. I am not really encouraged or have any need or cause to go through personal conflicts, or "sharp" discussions of any kind. I wonder if you are an Admin in this forum so that you are legible to send "warnings"; I think you are.  What I would say "gently"  is that if you are finding anything in the posts that is untrue or unscientific, how come, or why don't you simply reply and write down the "true" or "scientific" reply instead of generalizing? Why don't you be more specific and address the matter within context..? Which part specifically that is hooey?
> 
> And what about "slogging" why not call it excitement, or joy to communicate, exchange information, learn and educate if possible?


You want DeeAnna to back what she finds untrue or unscientific but you have not backed any of your statements. I guarantee DeeAnna has the research to back what she states. She also clarified some of your comments in Post #19 as to why some comments are incorrect. 

We do not need Admin privileges to warn others there is bad information here or anywhere else to help newbies save wasting ingredients and time. The reason for this forum is to learn, hopefully, teach and answer questions new soapmakers have. Helping troubleshoot problems etc, but not teach incorrect ways to make soap. We also share our good and bad experiments.  Soaping has a pretty large learning curve which we hope to alleviate. 

If your method works for you and you feel it is great, go for it, but for the soapmaker of cp it is not great. I soap with vinegar and have also used lemon juice adding in the extra NaOH to create sodium acetate, resulting in a hard bar which lathers well. 

Before I was in the forum I tried soaping with lemon juice as water replacement without adding in the extra lye, since I did not know better, and I remember I had a very mush bar of soap that never hardened. Is that enough proof for new soapers to know not to try it without adding in the extra lye? Also too much citric acid reacted to become sodium citrate will crystallize on the outside of the bar. Which is why I stopped using citric acid as a chelator. I have also salted out a few batches and was not the least impressed with the resulting soap, even trying to add back in the lost glycerin with refined glycerin.


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## HaniS (Jul 18, 2019)

Bladesmith said:


> I was curious to read more about how you make soap but I have not been able to find this thread.


 
Thanks Bladesmith. I think that I can put "how I make soap" under 3 main categories.

The first one has to do with boiling. Soap factories mainly make soap by combining Full-boiling + Salting-out. Some of the advanced factories include Steam Pressure along with the other two main processes. What I do is similar to that (which is done in the factory), that consists of Strong Phase, Fitting, Salting-out and Graining.. except that instead of full-boiling during both Strong Phase and Salting-out, I do Semi-boiling, where the soap is either boiled one time only, or the fire is turned off just a little bit before boiling.

The other 2 operations or ways is the Steaming, hot-water bath, or both Steaming+ Hot water bath. This is similar to Pressure Steaming in the factory, but it's done simply by placing soap in a hot-water bath. This has many advantages such as neutralizing soap faster (rather than waiting long as in Aging or Curing soap). Hot-water bath also helps with "screening" soap, i.e getting rid of waste product, and finally hot-water bath helps in drying excessive water from soap.



cmzaha said:


> You want DeeAnna to back what she finds untrue or unscientific but you have not backed any of your statements. I guarantee DeeAnna has the research to back what she states. She also clarified some of your comments in Post #19 as to why some comments are incorrect.
> 
> We do not need Admin privileges to warn others there is bad information here or anywhere else to help newbies save wasting ingredients and time. The reason for this forum is to learn, hopefully, teach and answer questions new soapmakers have. Helping troubleshoot problems etc, but not teach incorrect ways to make soap. We also share our good and bad experiments.  Soaping has a pretty large learning curve which we hope to alleviate.
> 
> ...



Thank you cmzaha for your reply. So what is the difference between what DeeAnna did for backing up her statements, and between what I did in "not backing up my statement"? For example do you agree that Lemon Juice breaks down the sodium stearate (and other sodium-acid) bond or not? Do you agree or find it unscientific that Citric Acid reacts with Naoh and slightly reduces the concentration of the water/lye solution?

Also I never mentioned or asked DeeAnna to back up anything. What I asked for is that to be more specific about any "mistake" rather than sending warnings.. cheers 

quote from your reply:

"If your method works for you and you feel it is great, go for it, but for the soapmaker of cp it is not great..."

Now are you speaking on behalf All CP soap-makers!?

Finding contradictions in someone else's statement is not my idea of having fun really..


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## DeeAnna (Jul 18, 2019)

Hani smaik said:


> ...I wonder if you are an Admin in this forum so that you are legible to send "warnings"; I think you are....



Last time I looked, I didn't see "Moderator" or "Administrator" listed under my name.

While I am and always have been just a regular member, I will not remain silent when I see incorrect, unsafe, or misleading information being touted.

_"...why don't you simply reply and write down the "true" or "scientific" reply instead of generalizing?..."_

I have made three attempts in this thread to provide accurate scientific information -- see posts 14, 19, and 42. My replies have been largely ignored or blown off, so my only recourse is to caution others to read this thread with a very skeptical eye.

This is devolving into a useless wrangle. If I see the need to warn others again, I will. But otherwise, I'm outta here.


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## HaniS (Jul 18, 2019)

I don't know DeeAnna.. Why do you say that your replies or posts were ignored? How do you know? Maybe I've read them and highly respected what you wrote. Maybe many others read your replies and got useful information from. Not commenting on your posts or replies does not mean they were ignored. And when I post a reply with your name not mentioned, it doesn't mean that I am addressing other members and so on.

Anyways, I still don't understand why you use words such as Caution! Warning! 

I don't mean any offend by this. I just think that you are over reacting. 

Making mistakes are normal, writing mistakes is also normal, and there's no big deal in this. This is a forum, and this is why it's here. 

So what is it really that you are threatening "others" with if you are not an admin? just wondering..


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## earlene (Jul 21, 2019)

StoneCottageSoapworks said:


> Earlene,  Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap meaning that less of the oils would saponify giving you what amounts to a larger superfat which would make the soap softer to cut and not have as good characteristics as your normal soap formula might have.  Besides, the Lemon "scent" won't hold up at all because it is a top note and citrus essential oils are notorious for disappearing from the soap scent in a matter of days or weeks!



The first part of what you quoted that I said was about using lemon juice in soap as  the liquid replacement for water.  I made no mention of or attempt to impart any scent to the soap.  That was not my purpose at all.  I also happened to mention that I did make lye adjustments, so your reply indicates to me you did not read all of what I said in that post.  And besides that, I do not believe the pH of soap is significantly lowered by any means such as this, and if it were it would no longer be soap.

The second part was about adding cut up soap to lemon juice to see how long it would take for the soap to deteriorate (or if it would, which of course it did.)  I don't think you were responding to that part of my post, but you did include it in the quote, so I am not sure if you meant it in reply to that part or not.

ETA:  Also I don't particularly care about the pH of soap.  It is what it is and within the scientific definition of soap it will be within a specific range.  When it leaves that range it is no longer soap.  I want to make soap and am happy with it at the pH range within which it falls.  I do not test for pH because what matters more is whether or not soap is lye heavy and pH is NOT a good indicator of that.  Zap testing is a far better indicator.


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## StoneCottageSoapworks (Jul 21, 2019)

earlene said:


> The first part of what you quoted that I said was about using lemon juice in soap as  the liquid replacement for water.  I made no mention of or attempt to impart any scent to the soap.  That was not my purpose at all.  I also happened to mention that I did make lye adjustments, so your reply indicates to me you did not read all of what I said in that post.  And besides that, I do not believe the pH of soap is significantly lowered by any means such as this, and if it were it would no longer be soap.
> 
> The second part was about adding cut up soap to lemon juice to see how long it would take for the soap to deteriorate (or if it would, which of course it did.)  I don't think you were responding to that part of my post, but you did include it in the quote, so I am not sure if you meant it in reply to that part or not.
> 
> ETA:  Also I don't particularly care about the pH of soap.  It is what it is and within the scientific definition of soap it will be within a specific range.  When it leaves that range it is no longer soap.  I want to make soap and am happy with it at the pH range within which it falls.  I do not test for pH because what matters more is whether or not soap is lye heavy and pH is NOT a good indicator of that.  Zap testing is a far better indicator.



Earlene,

Yes, you are correct that adjustments need to be made to a formula when you add an acid that will affect the base used in the product, but you said very little about how you made the calculations to correct the addition of an acid to the base included in your formula.  In the 2nd. portion of my response, I was responding to the scent aspect mentioned below by the original poster, Jerry who created this thread to find out the information about using lemon in his soapmaking process.  My reply, as others who have replied to this thread,  is to everyone who has posted or who is reading this thread.



Jerry S said:


> Has anyone used fresh lemon or lime juice in his or her soaps? I do CP and I have a ton of fresh limes and lemons from my trees and thought about trying it but I don’t know how much to put in and whether I should discount the water with the amount of juice. Maybe the lye water would eliminate the scent of the juice.Maybe the citric acid would compromise the quality of the soap in some way. I've searched around some of the Forums and haven't  seen where anyone has tried this.
> Jerry



Sorry I didn't delete the second section of your post.  You are entitled to express your opinion about the pH of soap as you did in the 3rd. section.  I don't happen to feel the same way about this issue. I am very careful in determining pH in soap, shaving soap, shaving cream or any other types of products I formulate and manufacture.  I have been taught by several friends of mine who are cosmetic chemists how important it is to test the pH of a product if there is any concern about it having a higher pH than is appropriate for that product.  I was instructed that I should use a pH meter (and I do feel much more comfortable using my pH meter!) to do the appropriate testing as it is the only proper way to perform this task!  I am saying this to all those out there who may read it as I think it is important and correct information for them to have so that they can do the right thing when they are creating their products!  This goes for amateurs and professionals alike!


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## DeeAnna (Jul 21, 2019)

Most people expect way too much out of a pH test, especially when it comes to soap. Most soap makers want the pH test to tell them whether their soap contains excess alkali when they pH test their soap. 

Problem is, the pH test is not sufficiently precise enough to give you a useful answer. Only a few parts per thousand of excess alkali means the difference between skin safe or not, and a simple pH check cannot come close to telling you this.

The other aspect is that the pH of a fully neutralized soap will vary with the fatty acids present in the soap. One soap that tests at a pH of 10.0 might be skin safe and another soap testing at a pH of 9.5 might contain excess alkali.

For both of these reasons, it is unwise to depend on pH for confirmation that the soap is skin safe (no excess alkali). A titration test for free alkali is the gold standard procedure that answers this question accurately. The quick qualitative check of excess alkali is the zap test.


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## cmzaha (Jul 21, 2019)

I remember reading a chart on the mildest rated soap for babies several years ago and one of the highest ph soaps was rated the mildest. Someone here might remember the article, I just do not.


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## earlene (Jul 22, 2019)

StoneCottageSoapworks said:


> Earlene,
> 
> Earlene,
> 
> Yes, you are correct that adjustments need to be made to a formula when you add an acid that will affect the base used in the product,


  Hmm. 

 but you said very little about how you made the calculations to correct the addition of an acid to the base included in your formula. [/QUOTE]  No, as it has already been covered elsewhere.  Refer to post #14 for instructions how to do so as I would have said had a new person asked.  




StoneCottageSoapworks said:


> In the 2nd. portion of my response, I was responding to the scent aspect mentioned below by the original poster, Jerry who created this thread to find out the information about using lemon in his soapmaking process.  My reply, as others who have replied to this thread,  is to everyone who has posted or who is reading this thread.



That was not apparent to me.  Since you quoted me specifically and then in the very same paragraph said, "Besides, the lemon scent won't "... <snipped the rest for brevity>



StoneCottageSoapworks said:


> Earlene,  Lemon Juice has a very low pH of around 2 to 3 so in effect you are lowering the pH of your soap meaning that less of the oils would saponify giving you what amounts to a larger superfat which would make the soap softer to cut and not have as good characteristics as your normal soap formula might have.  Besides, the Lemon "scent" won't hold up at all because it is a top note and citrus essential oils are notorious for disappearing from the soap scent in a matter of days or weeks!



Perhaps I need to learn to read between the lines better.


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## DeeAnna (Jul 22, 2019)

cmzaha said:


> I remember reading a chart on the mildest rated soap for babies several years ago and one of the highest ph soaps was rated the mildest. Someone here might remember the article, I just do not.



That was probably me. The research paper is -- Baranda L, R González-Amaro, et al. _Correlation between pH and irritant effect of cleansers marketed for dry skin_. International Journal of Dermatology. 2002, 41, 494–499.

Here is the relevant data from Baranda's article showing the irritation index versus pH values for the commercial soaps they tested. These soaps would not have had excess alkali -- the pH is for the fully neutralized soap. More irritation = higher irritation index. --


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## valeriemosher (Jan 19, 2020)

Jerry S said:


> Has anyone used fresh lemon or lime juice in his or her soaps? I do CP and I have a ton of fresh limes and lemons from my trees and thought about trying it but I don’t know how much to put in and whether I should discount the water with the amount of juice. Maybe the lye water would eliminate the scent of the juice.Maybe the citric acid would compromise the quality of the soap in some way. I've searched around some of the Forums and haven't  seen where anyone has tried this.
> Jerry


I've made quite a few of lemon juice soaps, as a matter of fact just uploaded a video on one -- people make them a lot with no issues whatsoever, the soap is lovely and it does not neutralize lye, there is so very little citric acid in it that there is really no issues , just lovely


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## shunt2011 (Jan 19, 2020)

valeriemosher said:


> I've made quite a few of lemon juice soaps, as a matter of fact just uploaded a video on one -- people make them a lot with no issues whatsoever, the soap is lovely and it does not neutralize lye, there is so very little citric acid in it that there is really no issues , just lovely


Merry hasn’t been here since 2015


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## cmzaha (Jan 19, 2020)

valeriemosher said:


> I've made quite a few of lemon juice soaps, as a matter of fact just uploaded a video on one -- people make them a lot with no issues whatsoever, the soap is lovely and it does not neutralize lye, there is so very little citric acid in it that there is really no issues , just lovely


And how do you know it is not creating sodium citrate? In other words, lye reacting with the citric acid and raising your superfat? That is exactly what is happening if you are adding in lemon juice and not adding in the necessary extra lye. Some will use such process to raise superfat instead of adding the extra oil or using less lye to adjust superfat. You cannot stop the process from happening. But if you use to much lemon juice as water replacement you will break the soap and have a mushy mess.


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