# Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials



## KiwiMoose

Here's my current recipe that's being tested by myself and friends.  Please feel free to comment on ingredients because I am totally shooting in the dark here.  I would be interested to know if you have any suggestions for improvement.  I have made the decision to NOT use cocamidopropyl betaine due to the likelihood of it being a known irritant to eczema sufferers.  And that's quite a major ingredient to work around.
This recipe is a pourable one, not a pressed one.

SCI 135g
SLSA 45g
Varisoft EQ65 30g
Cetyl Alcohol 18g
Capryl Glucoside 15g
DLS 15g
Shea Butter 15g
Decyl Glucoside 9g
Provitamin B5 6g
Vegetable Silicone 3g
Lactic Acid 3g
Silk Protein 3g
Euxyl 3g

Fragrance 5g


----------



## Kcryss

Thanks for starting this thread KiwiMoose! Following


----------



## Quilter99755

I too will be following.  All the chemistry is beyond me right now.  Maybe after the holidays I can get my brain to settle down and digest this a little better.


----------



## SideDoorSoaps

How long did it take for your bars to set up? My recipe turned out pretty gummy and pliable, not quite pourable.


----------



## atiz

SideDoorSoaps said:


> How long did it take for your bars to set up? My recipe turned out pretty gummy and pliable, not quite pourable.


I have not worked with this particular recipe, but mine is usually pretty thick -- don't think of pourable like thin trace but the "somehow I can quickly gulp it into the mold and it will be fine" kind of pourable. Like thick chocolate cream -- thick and sticky. It's not really my favorite thing to make, but I only make about 1 at a time, since Kiwi's batch size would last me for ever...

After pouring, mine is usually set in a few hours, but I like leaving it alone for a few days at least (or a week if I can) in order for it to harden and dry out a bit more. I think it helps with its overall lifespan.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Yes mine is as described by Atiz^.  If you don't pour it within 3 seconds - you can't pour it.  In fact I usually pour two, put it back on the double boiler for a sec to stir it, pour another two, back on the double boiler, and pour the last two.  You can unmold in one hour and it's a bit tacky, but within two, it's slick on the bottom.


----------



## Mobjack Bay

@KiwiMoose Thank you for sharing the recipe. I need to do a lot of reading before I delve into syndet bars, but it’s definitely easier to get started with a recipe in hand.  I find that reading and learning about each of the ingredients is a whole lot easier than reading about every possible ingredient.  I’m happy to be an apprentice to my wiser, more experienced soaping sistah .


----------



## Gaisy59

KiwiMoose said:


> Here's my current recipe that's being tested by myself and friends.  Please feel free to comment on ingredients because I am totally shooting in the dark here.  I would be interested to know if you have any suggestions for improvement.  I have made the decision to NOT use cocamidopropyl betaine due to the likelihood of it being a known irritant to eczema sufferers.  And that's quite a major ingredient to work around.
> This recipe is a pourable one, not a pressed one.
> 
> SCI 135g
> SLSA 45g
> Varisoft EQ65 30g
> Cetyl Alcohol 18g
> Capryl Glucoside 15g
> DLS 15g
> Shea Butter 15g
> Decyl Glucoside 9g
> Provitamin B5 6g
> Vegetable Silicone 3g
> Lactic Acid 3g
> Silk Protein 3g
> Euxyl 3g
> 
> Fragrance 5g



Hi KiwiMoose I just found your recipe. So from Swift Craft Monkey it looks to me like this would be for someone with normal to oily hair and has a very high ph.  Someone with curly hair as I have would need a ph around 5-7. Your Varisoft has ph of around 11, decyl glycoside has ph of 11. Definitely not moisturizing for your curly friend. I stayed away from Varisoft as SCM and even Dahila said you have to do a lot of ph adjusting if you use this ingredient.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Gaisy59 said:


> Hi KiwiMoose I just found your recipe. So from Swift Craft Monkey it looks to me like this would be for someone with normal to oily hair and has a very high ph.  Someone with curly hair as I have would need a ph around 5-7. Your Varisoft has ph of around 11, decyl glycoside has ph of 11. Definitely not moisturizing for your curly friend. I stayed away from Varisoft as SCM and even Dahila said you have to do a lot of ph adjusting if you use this ingredient.


Thanks Gaisy.  I used Varisoft instead of Stearic acid and cetearyl alcohol - maybe I should just switch back to using those?
ETA - Hang on, my data sheet says the pH is between 4 - 6 for Varisoft EQ65.


----------



## Gaisy59

KiwiMoose said:


> Thanks Gaisy.  I used Varisoft instead of Stearic acid and cetearyl alcohol - maybe I should just switch back to using those?
> ETA - Hang on, my data sheet says the pH is between 4 - 6 for Varisoft EQ65.



Hmmm I apologize, I have tried to find where SCM said it was a high ph but cannot, and even Dahila said it can wander up to 9. So consider that bad info from me until I can find where I read it.


----------



## Carolyne Thrasher

Last night I made one with
50% sci
18%slsa
7.5 btms50
5 Cetyl alcohol
5 kokum butter
10 capB
1 panthenol (b5)
2 vegekeratin
1 fragrance
.5 optiphen

I use a press to make by shampoo bars into a puck shape. I didn't like it as much as the one I made with 70% sci and slightly lower btms 50 and capB. But I have a customer who really wants some and the recommendations from all the USA suppliers has sci at 50% usage rate. I think this stinks because I suspect this is for liquid products not syndet bars. I have read both switchcraft monkey and bespoke's books. I like bespoke's formulas better.


----------



## SideDoorSoaps

Gaisy59 said:


> Someone with curly hair as I have would need a ph around 5-7.



@KiwiMoose, did you pH test your bar? I tested mine and it was a 6.5. I have thick, wavy ethnic-ish hair (I’m part Filipina and Spanish) and my Hair did feel squeaky clean right after washing and after drying a bit tangly but very shiny. I may have to bring the ph down some.

 I think I also need more conditioning properties...a conditioner bar is up next!


----------



## KiwiMoose

SideDoorSoaps said:


> @KiwiMoose, did you pH test your bar? I tested mine and it was a 6.5. I have thick, wavy ethnic-ish hair (I’m part Filipina and Spanish) and my Hair did feel squeaky clean right after washing and after drying a bit tangly but very shiny. I may have to bring the ph down some.
> 
> I think I also need more conditioning properties...a conditioner bar is up next!


No - I need to test mine.  I do use the lactic acid to bring it down a bit.  But a pH meter will set me back about $NZ55 so I've been putting it off.

Is this suitable? It seems very cheap. https://www.thewarehouse.co.nz/p/mc...VzSMrCh0aFgeIEAQYAiABEgJF5PD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Or is this better? https://www.jaycar.co.nz/hand-held-ph-meter/p/QM1670

Or this one? https://www.trademe.co.nz/business-...tm?rsqid=65e7d66ef9684a08adb1477e13a9fcde-001

Why the difference in price?


----------



## SoaperForLife

First one is for soil pH testing.  Can you do Amazon?  I bought this one a few months ago to replace one that broke: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ENFOHN8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## SideDoorSoaps

I’m not sure what the difference in price is so much. “You get what you pay for” is the reasoning I’ve been hearing. I was recommended one like this: WeekStar Digital, 0.01 High Accuracy Pocket Size Meter/PH 0-14.0 Measuring Range, Quality Tester for Household Drinking Water, Swimming Pools, Aquariums, YELLOW https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RY488QV/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_F1L-DbWMAHAWX


----------



## Eepa

I'm using this recipe. It's pretty good for my hair, although I only use it while travelling. At home I have liquid shampoo that I've made myself too, and I prefer that in the long term. This is little too drying for my hair in longer use but I'm too lazy to tweak it. =P My scalp oily and itchy due tandruff and my hair has permanent curls to control the oiliness so it's prone to drying.  

Heated phase
30 g SCI (30%)
15 g Cocamidopropyl betaine (15%)
22 g SLSa (22%)
10 g Plantapon LGC (10%)
3 g Cetyl alcohol (3%)
3 g BTMS (3%)
5 g Cocoa butter (5%)
4 g Coconut oil (4%)
2 g Silk protein (2%)

Cool down phase
2 g Panthenol (2%)
2 g Lupine seed extract (2%)
1 g Saboderm CV (1%)
1 g Iscaguard (1%)


----------



## KiwiMoose

Thanks for sharing your recipes @Carolyne Thrasher and @Eepa - it's good to see what works for others.  I still think my new tweaked recipe is a little drying - although I find it ok.  I will wait for the arrival of my pH meter next week to see if high pH is a problem.


----------



## KiwiMoose

My pH is 4.5!


----------



## Gaisy59

KiwiMoose said:


> My pH is 4.5!



OMG that is fantastic! Very happy that this worked!


----------



## SideDoorSoaps

Hooray!!


----------



## KiwiMoose

I've just ordered some Foaming Apple from Lotion Crafter ( cost more for shipping USA - NZ than it did for the product - lol).  Looking forward to experimenting with that when it comes.

Feedback from two more testers is that the bar is good!  My friend (who has frizzy hair) said her hair was a little frizzy after using but she didn't use a conditioner so I expect that wouldn't have helped. My hair tends towards frizzy too, but I still use a commercial conditioner ( until I start making conditioner bars!).  Anyway - she said she would happily come back for more once this bar is gone. My mum has tested it and LOVES it! She reckons it made her hair thicker!?  Not sure about that, but she and I have similar hair types, except that hers has thinned a bit with age.


----------



## SideDoorSoaps

These foaming products have my curiosity piqued. I can’t use Apple because I’m allergic to some but foaming oats...

I finally have a recipe for shampoo and conditioner bars that I like and now can pass out some testers.


----------



## Carolyne Thrasher

About the drying ends. I have read somewhere. Can't remember that it is useful to make a conditioning bar to apply just to the ends of your hair. However, I'm super lazy and rarely used conditioner even when using bottled shampoo. I do know that a 2-in-1 product shampoo bar makes for greasy hair for me so I might whip up a trial conditioner just to see. I heard raspberry seed oil is really good because it helps with sun damage so maybe a leave in serum or something would be even better. Has anyone heard of such a thing?


----------



## KiwiMoose

I've now tried my new foaming apple bars and can report that there is a reduction in lather to my previous ingredients ( upon second shampooing it was fine though).  However, it definitely feels more gentle, and my hair is softer.  I should point out that I still use a regular conditioner afterwards at this stage (I will one day make a conditioner bar too).

I've cut the decyl glucoside fromm the recipe, and decreased the capryl glucoside and DLS to 5% combined.  I added foaming apple at 10%.  I also reduced the SLSA from 15 to 5%, and increased the SCI to a total of 50% of the recipe.  I suspect it's the SLSA that was the main contributor to the lather, and that by reducing it I have also reduced lather.

The pH of the bars is now 5.3.


----------



## KiwiMoose

So - upon reflection I notice my scalp is not as itchy with the new bars.  Not that it was super-itchy before, but it _was _itchy.  It's not now since using the foaming apple.  My suspicion from reading another site is that the SLSA is what was causing the itchiness, and now that my new recipe has reduced this from 15% to 5% it is fine.  However, another consideration is that the previous bars were a lower pH than my scalp ( in the 4's) and now I am up to 5.3 it is closer to my scalp/skin pH and so that's why my scalp likes it better.  Thoughts?


----------



## Gaisy59

I am wondering if it would be due to what you removed/decreased (decyl glucoside/capryl glucoside and DLS)?


----------



## KiwiMoose

Gaisy59 said:


> I am wondering if it would be due to what you removed/decreased (decyl glucoside/capryl glucoside and DLS)?


Yes - another option.  I do notice that a lot of people find the SLSA itchy though.  And that's the only thing I was using in larger quantities.


----------



## Gaisy59

Are you sure its SLSa because all i can find are bad reports for SLS which is different? But i would like to see what others are thinking.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Gaisy59 said:


> Are you sure its SLSa because all i can find are bad reports for SLS which is different? But i would like to see what others are thinking.


It's from the syndet facebook group that others are saying SLSA.  My partner has been using the Lush ones which are about 80% SLS and whenever I've trialled those they don't get itchy.  But y' know it could be anything - and also it's entirely personal.  None of my other testers have reported being itchy, so who knows?


----------



## Gaisy59

Funny you should say that because the bar I bought to try has SCS and it does not bother me and you would think it would be worse than SLSa.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Most commercial shampoos have either SLS or SCS and I never react to those.


----------



## Carolyne Thrasher

@KiwiMoose I’m sure the slsa is problematic for a lot of people. It is me. When I lower it to 10% it’s ok. Foaming Apple increased the ph of my bar but I like it because I think it is more biodegradable than CAPB. I’m going to try the other foaming liquid surfactants except the silk because I have a vegan customer following. I think I have my base recipe pretty well dialed in but this weekend I’m going to attempt to make a clarifying bar for my daughter and include activated charcoal. I’ll post my recipe and results next week.


----------



## Kcryss

Carolyne Thrasher said:


> @KiwiMoose Foaming Apple increased the ph of my bar but I like it because I think it is more biodegradable than CAPB. I’m going to try the other foaming liquid surfactants except the silk because I have a vegan customer following.



I'm doing basically the same thing, trying to remove everything except a foaming amino acid and SCI for the same reasons. I hadn't even thought about silk being an issue for vegans. Guess my niece will not be happy or will not try it unless I change that ...
I've also found recently other amino acid based surfactants, specifically sodium cocoyl glycinate, but it seems to only be available in the US via Alibaba.


----------



## amd

@KiwiMoose is this your current recipe?
50% SCI
5% SLSa
6% Cetyl alcohol
10% Varisoft
5% Capryl gluco
5% Shea
1% Vegetable silicone (hemisqualene)
1% Silk protein
1% Lactic acid
10% Foaming apple
Fragrance

I'm coming up 6% short and wanted to make sure I was following your changes correctly.


----------



## KiwiMoose

I’m not at my computer presently but you also need to add fractionated coconut oil, b panthenol, I think some DLS, and something else...?
ETA
2% Fractionated CO ( LOVE this stuff! - but I do have dry coarse hair, recently bleached which made it worse)
1% B Panthenol
1% Preservative
I also used 2% vegetable lanolin coz I had some here for my shave soap.  You could chuck in something else that you like the sound of.


----------



## amd

Thanks for clarifying that @KiwiMoose how did you like the vegetable lanolin? I have some regular lanolin here that I need to use up, so that might be an interesting addition to the shampoo bar.


----------



## KiwiMoose

amd said:


> Thanks for clarifying that @KiwiMoose how did you like the vegetable lanolin? I have some regular lanolin here that I need to use up, so that might be an interesting addition to the shampoo bar.


I think it seems great - but then again I added the fractionated coconut oil at the same time, so that was a bit silly in hindsight - now I'll never really know which of the two finally provided the properties i was seeking.  I guess I always assumed it was the FCO because I had been using it neat on my hair before blowdrying before having the epiphany about adding it to my shampoo bar.
This sounds pretty good though - in support of lanolin: Lanolin Oil: Health Benefits, Uses, and Side Effects


----------



## Megan

Ummmm...vegetable lanolin! Why haven't I heard about this till now!?!

Edit: does it have issues with crystallization due to the shea butter....Shea butter is one of my favorite and least favorite ingredients...


----------



## KiwiMoose

Megan said:


> Ummmm...vegetable lanolin! Why haven't I heard about this till now!?!
> 
> Edit: does it have issues with crystallization due to the shea butter....Shea butter is one of my favorite and least favorite ingredients...


crystallisation? no - why would it?


----------



## Megan

KiwiMoose said:


> crystallisation? no - why would it?


I have issues with grainyness in my products made with shea butter after a while. The vegetable lanolin I saw was made partially with shea butter


----------



## Quilter99755

I made some lotion with shea butter and it was grainy.  I found somewhere...don't remember and didn't book mark it...sorry. It said shea butter needed to be cooled fast or it would turn grainy.  So I reheated the container of lotion and stuck it in the refrigerator for a couple of hours. It was no longer grainy. Wish I could remember where I found the info, but at least it worked for what I was doing with the shea butter.


----------



## Gaisy59

Quilter99755 said:


> I made some lotion with shea butter and it was grainy.  I found somewhere...don't remember and didn't book mark it...sorry. It said shea butter needed to be cooled fast or it would turn grainy.  So I reheated the container of lotion and stuck it in the refrigerator for a couple of hours. It was no longer grainy. Wish I could remember where I found the info, but at least it worked for what I was doing with the shea butter.



Hi i read the same thing and i order from Windy Point Soaps and it was in the little blog they put in when describing the item.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Hmm - I don't think I've ever had a problem with it that I've noticed anyway.. I use it at 10% in all my CP soap, and at 5% in my syndet bars.


----------



## Gaisy59

That was the first i heard if that as well. Every batch i have had has been fine. Maybe this is something new, the sources have been getting inferior product?


----------



## atiz

It's not grainy in CP soap because it's not 


KiwiMoose said:


> Hmm - I don't think I've ever had a problem with it that I've noticed anyway.. I use it at 10% in all my CP soap, and at 5% in my syndet bars.


There's no butter left in the soap so I don't think it can get grainy... I have only had that in body butters and lip balms, and maybe a little bit in syndet bars, but it's hard to notice, since it's such a small amount. 
I have tried tempering shea and it did help with the graininess. But I just don't use it in lip balms any more.


----------



## Megan

Quilter99755 said:


> I made some lotion with shea butter and it was grainy.  I found somewhere...don't remember and didn't book mark it...sorry. It said shea butter needed to be cooled fast or it would turn grainy.  So I reheated the container of lotion and stuck it in the refrigerator for a couple of hours. It was no longer grainy. Wish I could remember where I found the info, but at least it worked for what I was doing with the shea butter.


Tempering works, but grainy-ness will evenutally appear if conditions aren't kept perfect. For instance, I have tried and tried to use it in my lip balms, I even tried using cera bellina as a stabilizer. I still get grainy balms after a few months if there are temperature fluctuations...for instance if I keep a lip balm in my pocket (which I do all of the time). I've since given up on it in this application. In lotions, it shouldn't have much of a problem because of the emulsified nature, but I have heard of it happening. I think it happens more with anhydrous products.


----------



## TashaBird

KiwiMoose said:


> Hmm - I don't think I've ever had a problem with it that I've noticed anyway.. I use it at 10% in all my CP soap, and at 5% in my syndet bars.


What do you think about this recipe?


----------



## AliOop

@TashaBird she does a good job of explaining the process, which is nice. Personally, I'm not crazy about bentonite clay for my hair, which is already quite dry and gets really dried out by bentonite. I prefer rhassoul clay, which is usually suitable for all hair types. It isn't as absorbent as bentonite, which might affect the liquid balance in the recipe. 

My shampoo bars with SCI and CapB are more than bubbly enough without adding soap nut powder, but if you have some around already, then it might be worth trying to see if you like it.


----------



## TashaBird

AliOop said:


> @TashaBird she does a good job of explaining the process, which is nice. Personally, I'm not crazy about bentonite clay for my hair, which is already quite dry and gets really dried out by bentonite. I prefer rhassoul clay, which is usually suitable for all hair types. It isn't as absorbent as bentonite, which might affect the liquid balance in the recipe.
> 
> My shampoo bars with SCI and CapB are more than bubbly enough without adding soap nut powder, but if you have some around already, then it might be worth trying to see if you like it.


That recipe of yours looks really interesting! I’m going to try the DIY recipe from etsy to cut my chops. But, I’m having a hard time picturing having to smoosh them.


----------



## Sharyl

AliOop said:


> @TashaBird she does a good job of explaining the process, which is nice. Personally, I'm not crazy about bentonite clay for my hair, which is already quite dry and gets really dried out by bentonite. I prefer rhassoul clay, which is usually suitable for all hair types. It isn't as absorbent as bentonite, which might affect the liquid balance in the recipe.
> 
> My shampoo bars with SCI and CapB are more than bubbly enough without adding soap nut powder, but if you have some around already, then it might be worth trying to see if you like it.


May I ask which DIY recipe s a good starting off point?  I found a couple on Etsy. Not sure where to start!


----------



## AliOop

@TashaBird after mixing, the consistency is similar to a sticky soap dough, if that helps.

@Sharyl a bunch of us have used - and really like - the recipes on Etsy from DIY Bath and Body. So far I’ve tried their shampoo bar recipe (win) and conditioner bar recipe (win). I have several others but haven’t gotten to them yet.

I’ve also used information from the SwiftyCraftyMonkey Blog to learn more about shampoo bar ingredients, recipes, and substitutions. I only pay for the $1/month subscription level and have access to tons of info. Just be warned that it is a total rabbit hole that is not organized in a very user-friendly way, IMO. But the info is there if you don’t mind clicking through many different links.


----------



## Sharyl

AliOop said:


> @TashaBird after mixing, the consistency is similar to a sticky soap dough, if that helps.
> 
> @Sharyl a bunch of us have used - and really like - the recipes on Etsy from DIY Bath and Body. So far I’ve tried their shampoo bar recipe (win) and conditioner bar recipe (win). I have several others but haven’t gotten to them yet.
> 
> I’ve also used information from the SwiftyCraftyMonkey Blog to learn more about shampoo bar ingredients, recipes, and substitutions. I only pay for the $1/month subscription level and have access to tons of info. Just be warned that it is a total rabbit hole that is not organized in a very user-friendly way, IMO. But the info is there if you don’t mind clicking through many different links.


Thank you so much @AliOop !  I tried SwiftyCraftyMonkey. It was so disorganized I thought I had a bad link!  I’ll go back and try again.


----------



## AliOop

Sharyl said:


> Thank you so much @AliOop !  I tried SwiftyCraftyMonkey. It was so disorganized I thought I had a bad link!  I’ll go back and try again.


I totally sympathize. I only look there when I have a block of time to research, copy, and paste into a document that I can organize in a way that makes sense to my brain!

For a ready-to-go, easy-to-understand recipe, the DIY Bath and Body shampo bar recipe on Etsy is well worth the $10.


----------



## Gaisy59

Just a note...i also have the DIY shampoo recipe and it is nice but she uses 73% SCI noodles and the safety value is only up to 55% at most. I called her on it and she got a little defensive. So i just did some adjustments.


----------



## Quanta

TashaBird said:


> But, I’m having a hard time picturing having to smoosh them.


I've found that the dough gets less sticky as it cools. I know it's ready to smoosh into the mold when it starts sticking to my spatula less and less. If you've ever had a batch of CP soap really accelerate by a misbehaving FO and you've had to quickly plop and smoosh into the mold, you have the experience you need.    Syndet bar dough, however, is pliable for a lot longer than accelerated CP batter is. In fact, if you don't freeze them before unmolding it's hard to get them out in one piece.




AliOop said:


> I’ve also used information from the SwiftyCraftyMonkey Blog to learn more about shampoo bar ingredients, recipes, and substitutions. I only pay for the $1/month subscription level and have access to tons of info. Just be warned that it is a total rabbit hole that is not organized in a very user-friendly way, IMO. But the info is there if you don’t mind clicking through many different links.


Susan at swiftcraftymonkey also sells ebooks. I don't have any of them but I'd think the information there would be a fair bit more organized than her blog, due to the format. She has a very thorough book on shampoo bars available, and another one that is just four recipes and not much else.


----------



## Sharyl

AliOop said:


> I totally sympathize. I only look there when I have a block of time to research, copy, and paste into a document that I can organize in a way that makes sense to my brain!
> 
> For a ready-to-go, easy-to-understand recipe, the DIY Bath and Body shampo bar recipe on Etsy is well worth the $10.


@AliOop i got them! The shampoo, conditioner and foaming cleansing grains. (20% off in three, lol) Thanks so much. I was seriously getting boggled into paralysis with all the research.


Gaisy59 said:


> Just a note...i also have the DIY shampoo recipe and it is nice but she uses 73% SCI noodles and the safety value is only up to 55% at most. I called her on it and she got a little defensive. So i just did some adjustments.





Gaisy59 said:


> Just a note...i also have the DIY shampoo recipe and it is nice but she uses 73% SCI noodles and the safety value is only up to 55% at most. I called her on it and she got a little defensive. So i just did some adjustments.


@Gaisy59  Safety Value?


----------



## Quanta

Sharyl said:


> Safety Value?


Most ingredients have a safe upper limit, percentage wise. In other words, if you use too much of that ingredient in your product, it can irritate skin. The vendor you buy ingredients from will sometimes have it on the product page, other times you have to do a little research.


----------



## Sharyl

Quanta said:


> Most ingredients have a safe upper limit, percentage wise. In other words, if you use too much of that ingredient in your product, it can irritate skin. The vendor you buy ingredients from will sometimes have it on the product page, other times you have to do a little research.


Oh! Gotcha. Thanks for calling that to my attention!  I remember seeing max %’s listed on ingredients from WSP.
So do you suggest bringing the percentage down and using something else to even it out?


----------



## AliOop

Sharyl said:


> Oh! Gotcha. Thanks for calling that to my attention!  I remember seeing max %’s listed on ingredients from WSP.
> So do you suggest bringing the percentage down and using something else to even it out?


I used the percentage she suggested and it's great for me and all of my testers. And I am someone who tends to react to all kinds of things that don't bother other people.


----------



## violets2217

AliOop said:


> and really like - the recipes on Etsy from DIY Bath and Body. So far I’ve tried their shampoo bar recipe (win) and conditioner bar recipe (win). I have several others but haven’t gotten to them yet.


We should be getting paid for promoting and selling her recipes! I love them though! All of them! I’ve made the shampoo bars, conditioner bars, lotion, face cream, deodorant and the solid oil face cleanser stick! My face is in great shape! My hair has never been so soft and shiny! And my whole family uses it!



TashaBird said:


> But, I’m having a hard time picturing having to smoosh them.



If you’re talking about the DIYBATHANDBODYSHOP Etsy store recipe, I ended up combining the powder SCI recipe and the SCI noodle recipe together and while following the directions somewhat... I mix the powdered together well, then add liquid and melted liquid ingredients and mix some more. I let it mix in the mixer for about 5 minutes. Then I add fragrance and preservative and mix a bit more! But once it’s all mixed I would just press it in a lined 1/3 cup measuring cup(2 oz) and pulled it out by the plastic wrap! That was the easiest for me. The noodle recipe didn’t stick together as well as I liked and the powder recipe kept cooling and not pressing smoothly.They all worked exceptionally well though! I did end up buying an cute little 3-D printed shampoo bar press on Etsy though. It’s even easier! Sorry for rambling... I just love making the shampoo & conditioner bars!


----------



## AliOop

@violets2217 yes, we should be getting a commission! 

Which shampoo bar mold did you buy? I think I'm going to cave in and get one. I like using my heart-shaped molds but since they are silicone, they get pushed out of shape with all the pressing.


----------



## violets2217

AliOop said:


> Which shampoo bar mold did you buy?



Shampoo Bar Mold Press 2 2.25 2.5 2.75 | Etsy

I don’t know if the link will work. But it is TheMakerShoppe on Etsy they are on sale right now! It took forever to get to me (or it seemed like it) but you get to pick your width... and they are easy to use for manual press. I ordered a 2.25 inch diameter and maybe should have gone a bit wider so my 3 oz bars are not so tall. But they fit well in my hand and match my conditioner bar 3oz molds, so maybe not!


----------



## amd

If you know someone who has a 3D printer - or have a decent sized school system - there's a free pattern on thingiverse for the 3pc puck mold. My city is around 20k population and we have 3d printers as part of the "shop" curriculum for both middle school and high school. The students print the things for free. We also have a secondary tech school that allows students to 3D print for free, and charges a small fee to the public.


----------



## AliOop

violets2217 said:


> Shampoo Bar Mold Press 2 2.25 2.5 2.75 | Etsy
> 
> I don’t know if the link will work. But it is TheMakerShoppe on Etsy they are on sale right now! It took forever to get to me (or it seemed like it) but you get to pick your width... and they are easy to use for manual press. I ordered a 2.25 inch diameter and maybe should have gone a bit wider so my 3 oz bars are not so tall. But they fit well in my hand and match my conditioner bar 3oz molds, so maybe not!


Did you get the standard material or the professional one?


----------



## violets2217

AliOop said:


> Did you get the standard material or the professional one?


Just the standard. I didn’t read about the professional one but I’m sure that one is more sturdy. I’ve never owned anything 3-d printed, but there was all kinds of “don’t do this” instructions for mine. But mine works very well and cleans up nice and easy! Last time I even hit it a few time with my rubber mallet just to make sure they were really pressed! Lol! And it’s still in working order.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Sharyl said:


> Oh! Gotcha. Thanks for calling that to my attention!  I remember seeing max %’s listed on ingredients from WSP.
> So do you suggest bringing the percentage down and using something else to even it out?


I use Foaming Apple instead of CocoB and it works well.


----------



## Quanta

Sharyl said:


> Oh! Gotcha. Thanks for calling that to my attention!  I remember seeing max %’s listed on ingredients from WSP.
> So do you suggest bringing the percentage down and using something else to even it out?


I use SLSa to even it out. It works for me and my testers and gives very nice lather. Also, apparently, the more surfactants you use, the milder the end product will be. You can always make a trial bar of each recipe adjustment you want to try and see what happens.



violets2217 said:


> If you’re talking about the DIYBATHANDBODYSHOP Etsy store recipe, I ended up combining the powder SCI recipe and the SCI noodle recipe together and while following the directions somewhat... I mix the powdered together well, then add liquid and melted liquid ingredients and mix some more. I let it mix in the mixer for about 5 minutes. Then I add fragrance and preservative and mix a bit more! But once it’s all mixed I would just press it in a lined 1/3 cup measuring cup(2 oz) and pulled it out by the plastic wrap! That was the easiest for me. The noodle recipe didn’t stick together as well as I liked and the powder recipe kept cooling and not pressing smoothly.They all worked exceptionally well though! I did end up buying an cute little 3-D printed shampoo bar press on Etsy though. It’s even easier! Sorry for rambling... I just love making the shampoo & conditioner bars!


My bars always stick together perfectly, and unmold easily. Here's what I do:

Warm the CAPB in a hot water bath. Use only SCI powder, not noodles, and add that next. Blend the CAPB and SCI together (with it still in the water bath if you can). You should get a smooth, creamy paste that stirs easily. Then add your other surfactants, if using any. Warm it back up if you need to before you add the melted ingredients (BTMS, cetyl alcohol, etc). If your surfactant paste is still warm/hot when you add the melted ingredients, it'll be much easier to blend everything together. Otherwise, the melted stuff will tend to cool and solidify as soon as it hits that cold surfactant paste (at least, that is my experience). If that happens, you get chunks of your re-solidified melted stuff in the bars that never got blended in. If you use noodles and they are never even warmed up, I don't think the paste of all the other ingredients is going to stick to them well enough, necessitating the pressure of a bath bomb press just to make them stay together. (I just got some noodles to experiment with, I'm going to have to make a few test bars.)

Once it all looks blended, I add my preservative and fragrance, and once that's about halfway mixed in I add a little mica. It makes it easier for my testers to remember which is shampoo and which is conditioner if only the shampoo is colored. The mica also helps me see when everything is fully incorporated.

I smoosh it down into silicone molds with my (gloved) hands and then freeze for an hour or two. I have some silicone cupcake cups from IKEA that are perfect for a 100g tester bar, but IKEA discontinued them recently. Once the bar is frozen all the way through, it will pop right out of the mold. Let it sit for a few days before using.

If you want to use the bath bomb press method to make cute shapes, I would still recommend they be frozen for a few hours after pressing. This really helps them harden up.


----------



## violets2217

Quanta said:


> (I just got some noodles to experiment with, I'm going to have to make a few test bars.)


Thanks for the awesome suggestions! They work so much better. I still used part noodles and part powder (I just like the look of the noodles once you start using the bars!) but warming the surfactants with the melted ingredients definitely gives more time to mix and press while still pliable! I read your post before falling asleep, so of course I dreamed of making shampoo and conditioner bars! As soon as I was fully awake I got started whipping up a small batch and used a wee bit of my free sample mica Firefly from Nurture Soap and Mediterranean Fig FO from WSP. They look and smell so cheerful and happy!


----------



## Quanta

violets2217 said:


> Thanks for the awesome suggestions! They work so much better. I still used part noodles and part powder (I just like the look of the noodles once you start using the bars!) but warming the surfactants with the melted ingredients definitely gives more time to mix and press while still pliable! I read your post before falling asleep, so of course I dreamed of making shampoo and conditioner bars! As soon as I was fully awake I got started whipping up a small batch and used a wee bit of my free sample mica Firefly from Nurture Soap and Mediterranean Fig FO from WSP. They look and smell so cheerful and happy!
> View attachment 55188


Good, I'm glad it worked for you. It surprises me how many tutorials don't mention warming the surfactants before adding the melted stuff. Even Susan at swiftcraftymonkey says if you use powdered SCI you don't have to warm it, so that's how I made my first batch and it just didn't work for me. So now I always warm it up and it's so much easier.

Mediterranean Fig is one FO that keeps catching my eye at WSP, but I haven't ordered any yet. Does it smell pretty true to the description?


----------



## AliOop

Question about presses for syndet bars: I have the single shampoo bar press mold in my Etsy cart, but am dithering about whether I should just try my mooncake press to see how that goes. It works great for bath bombs and shower steamers. Has anyone here tried it with syndet bars?

My concern is that the top patterns are pretty intricate, and that the syndet batter might stick to it. I do have some cyclomethicone that could be wiped on for a mold release if that would help. The other option is a layer plastic wrap, but again, with the intricate top design, I think the plastic wrap would really muddle things up.


----------



## violets2217

AliOop said:


> Question about presses for syndet bars: I have the single shampoo bar press mold in my Etsy cart, but am dithering about whether I should just try my mooncake press to see how that goes. It works great for bath bombs and shower steamers. Has anyone here tried it with syndet bars?
> 
> My concern is that the top patterns are pretty intricate, and that the syndet batter might stick to it. I do have some cyclomethicone that could be wiped on for a mold release if that would help. The other option is a layer plastic wrap, but again, with the intricate top design, I think the plastic wrap would really muddle things up.


I tried my moon cake presses first and they just stuck to the press. Every time! I was picking shampoo bar out of the flower design and it never released no matter what temp it was. Maybe if the were lined with plastic wrap or something thin. I didn’t try that. I just moved on to my measuring cups!


----------



## AliOop

violets2217 said:


> I tried my moon cake presses first and they just stuck to the press. Every time! I was picking shampoo bar out of the flower design and it never released no matter what temp it was. Maybe if the were lined with plastic wrap or something thin. I didn’t try that. I just moved on to my measuring cups!


Thanks, that's what I was afraid of. I'll either have to try the cyclomethicone or perhaps some oil as a release agent, or just bite the bullet and get the molds. I'm leaning towards the molds since I don't want to get halfway into the project, find that I don't like using the mooncake press, and then have to switch gears to another mold or press in the middle of making these.

OTOH, if I had the back-up method all prepped ahead of time, it might be worth a go. I really can't order things right now since I'm afraid they won't arrive before our move on the 31st.


----------



## violets2217

Quanta said:


> It surprises me how many tutorials don't mention warming the surfactants before adding the melted stuff.


The recipe & directions I bought so warm up the surfactants.. I just watched another and tried not heating them up and it was a bit easier to press for me. This time after I mixed the surfactants well I added half to the melting oils, then after everything was melted added it back into the kitchen aide and mixed well and added fragrance and preservative. One reason i didn’t like heating it all is I always worry about putting in the preservative to hot! But warming it up is much easier to mix and press!
The Mediterranean Fig, I think it is a sweet fruity yet spicy fragrance. I liked it once I used it, but at first I thought it was too sweet. Honestly I don’t think I read the description when I bought it, I think it was on sale and thought it sounded cool! After I made the bars this morning my kids said it smelled like a laundry mat... I don’t know if that is good or bad?!?!?


----------



## DeeAnna

I make shampoo bars using a sous vide method -- in other words, I melt the ingredients inside a heavy weight plastic bag that's been placed in a hot water bath (bain marie).

I prefer to use bags meant for vacuum sealing (Foodsaver type bags) because they are a lot less prone to leak. Others use freezer weight food bags (Ziploc). The ingredients go into the bag and the bag gets partly submerged in the hot water that's just deep enough to cover the ingredients. I roll the open top over several times and close it with a "binder clip". That seals the top of the bag in case the top slips under the water. This bag method makes it easy to mix the ingredients -- I wrap the bag in a small towel and smoosh it with my hands.

When the ingredients are melted and well smooshed together, I lay the unopened bag on the counter and use a bench scraper (or the edge of a spoon or butter knife) to scrape the paste into the middle of the bag. This is much like pushing frosting around in a pastry bag. After the paste is in a tidy lump, I let it cool to room temperature. (I've also cooled the paste in the refrigerator and that works well.)

If you want to add heat sensitive ingredients, wait until the paste has cooled to the right temperature, open the bag so the lump of paste is exposed and add the ingredients. Close the bag and smoosh until well mixed* and then let the paste cool further to room temp or refrigerator temp. Be sure to allow enough time for the center of the paste to cool so the paste isn't quite so awful sticky.

When cool, I cut the bag open, peel the plastic back, and portion the paste into individual silicone molds. I press the paste with my fingers into the mold. After the paste is in the molds, I'll wet my fingers and smooth off the exposed paste so it's a little more tidy. Tap a little bit, check the underside of the molds to make sure they're not distorted, and done. I don't make bars for sale, or I'd pay more attention to getting the paste deep into all the crevices for the smoothest look.

I've also hand-formed patties if I didn't feel like messing with the molds. Freeze the bars for at least several hours, and then gently work the bars out of their molds. They usually come out fairly cleanly.

Another trick I think is helpful is to put the fresh bars on waxed or parchment paper or plastic food wrap and leave them in a frost free refrigerator (not freezer) for some days. The low humidity in the fridge helps the bars to dry out and firm up nicely. If your house air is fairly dry, just leaving them in the open would also work. Sometimes I make these bars in summer when the humidity is really high, and the only way I can get them firm and dry is to use the fridge.

Even after they've firmed up, I also store my shampoo bars in the fridge, because they seem more prone to absorbing water from the air than soap. I don't have to worry about the bars softening in humid weather if the bars stay in the fridge.

One caveat about fridge storage -- if you like to use fragrance in your shampoo bars, you might want to keep the bars in an airtight container if refrigerating them for a long-ish time. I have a second fridge in my pantry where I keep essential oils, short-lived fats, garden produce, pop (Midwestern US lingo for soda), and adult beverages. I could only smell a tiny hint of scent from the unwrapped shampoo bars, but that was enough to taint the flavor of lightly wrapped foods (bread, cookies) stored in the freezer part of the fridge. A lesson learned the hard way. 

* One way to ensure last-minute ingredients are well mixed into the paste is to add a small amount of colorant to the paste along with the additives. I often use ultramarine blue, but a mica would also work nicely. When the color is evenly distributed throughout the paste, it's a safe bet the other additives are also mixed in well.


----------



## chrissyshuen

violets2217 said:


> Thanks for the awesome suggestions! They work so much better. I still used part noodles and part powder (I just like the look of the noodles once you start using the bars!) but warming the surfactants with the melted ingredients definitely gives more time to mix and press while still pliable! I read your post before falling asleep, so of course I dreamed of making shampoo and conditioner bars! As soon as I was fully awake I got started whipping up a small batch and used a wee bit of my free sample mica Firefly from Nurture Soap and Mediterranean Fig FO from WSP. They look and smell so cheerful and happy!
> View attachment 55188


These look great? Which recipe did you use? I feel so intimidated as I have been just making cold process soap.


----------



## violets2217

chrissyshuen said:


> These look great? Which recipe did you use? I feel so intimidated as I have been just making cold process soap.


 
I bought the awesome recipes for the shampoo and conditioner bars from the DIYbathandbody shop on Esty. They are great recipes, works exceptionally well and easy to make. Well worth the money spent!


----------



## violets2217

DeeAnna said:


> I make shampoo bars using a sous vide method -- in other words, I melt the ingredients inside a heavy weight plastic bag that's been placed in a hot water bath (bain marie).



Great method and no sink full of dirty dishes to clean up! Thanks! You always have the best advice!


----------



## chrissyshuen

violets2217 said:


> I bought the awesome recipes for the shampoo and conditioner bars from the DIYbathandbody shop on Esty. They are great recipes, works exceptionally well and easy to make. Well worth the money spent!


Great I didn’t know you could buy the recipes.  I will check it out.


----------



## violets2217

chrissyshuen said:


> Great I didn’t know you could buy the recipes. I will check it out.


I highly recommend that Esty shop! every recipe that I've gotten from them has been the best ever!!! And I've bought 6 recipes from that shop so far.


----------



## chrissyshuen

violets2217 said:


> I highly recommend that Esty shop! every recipe that I've gotten from them has been the best ever!!! And I've bought 6 recipes from that shop so far.


Have you used the conditioner bars?  I have been a hairdresser for a very long time and everyone asks me about the shampoo bars .  I can’t recommend until I have I tried it.  May not be for me as my hair is naturally black and I bleach it so I can have Royal blue hair! Eager to try the shampoo bar recipe .


----------



## Misschief

violets2217 said:


> I highly recommend that Esty shop! every recipe that I've gotten from them has been the best ever!!! And I've bought 6 recipes from that shop so far.


I have all of them. Haven't made everything yet but I do have all the recipes and love everything I've made so far. She has some great freebie recipes as well on the group's FB page.



chrissyshuen said:


> Have you used the conditioner bars?  I have been a hairdresser for a very long time and everyone asks me about the shampoo bars .  I can’t recommend until I have I tried it.  May not be for me as my hair is naturally black and I bleach it so I can have Royal blue hair! Eager to try the shampoo bar recipe .



@chrissyshuen, I've been using the DIY shampoo bars for about 3 years now (exclusively). When I last had my hair cut, about a year ago (yikes, where did the time go??), I asked my hairdresser for a report on my hair (see my avatar). She said my hair is very fine (it is) and I have a LOT of it (I do!); she also said my scalp looks very healthy and my hair is (in her words) exceptionally healthy.  I do use the DIY conditioner bars as well, only on the ends.


----------



## violets2217

chrissyshuen said:


> Have you used the conditioner bars?  I have been a hairdresser for a very long time and everyone asks me about the shampoo bars .  I can’t recommend until I have I tried it.  May not be for me as my hair is naturally black and I bleach it so I can have Royal blue hair! Eager to try the shampoo bar recipe .


I do use the conditioner bars too! My hair has never been so soft and shiny. I’m not shedding as much hair and my scalp is not itchy or anything! My daughter also uses them and she has VERY thick curly hair that is usually a frizzy mess, but it has tamed her hair quite a bit! She doesn’t use product so it’s quite amazing how it helps her curls. Good Luck!


----------



## AliOop

chrissyshuen said:


> Have you used the conditioner bars?  I have been a hairdresser for a very long time and everyone asks me about the shampoo bars .  I can’t recommend until I have I tried it.  May not be for me as my hair is naturally black and I bleach it so I can have Royal blue hair! Eager to try the shampoo bar recipe .


I've also used both the shampoo bar and conditioner bar from the recipes purchased from this shop, and I love them both. The shampoo is sulfate-free so it is appropriate for colored hair.

My hair is thick, curly, dry, and low-porosity. I only wash it once a week unless I've gone swimming or gotten super sweaty. I can't use much in the way of post-wash products because they all make me break out in pimples or rashes, or make my scalp and skin flake and peel so I look like a walking snow globe. I don't get any of those reactions with either of these recipes, and it's all looking as healthy and moderately shiny as my hair ever looks.


----------



## Savonette

when I use my moo cake mold I roll my weighed shampoo into a ball then kinda dip it into some color of metallic mica. Just enough to keep it from sticking and not so much it ruins the design.


----------



## violets2217

Misschief said:


> She has some great freebie recipes as well on the group's FB page.


Looking for those recipes NOW! Lol!

Found this video:

Easy fast method

very helpful...

ETA: I was on their business page... but just found their group page in another post. Hopefully I’m accepted to join! Lol!


----------



## AliOop

@Savonette thank you so much! I am going to give it a go using your method!


----------



## soapysandie

I want to make a syndet shampoo for blondes.Any idea which pigments I could use please?


----------



## GemstonePony

I'm not sure 


soapysandie said:


> I want to make a syndet shampoo for blondes.Any idea which pigments I could use please?


I'm not sure I understand the question: are you looking to make a shampoo that dyes your hair blonde? Or just make a shampoo with pretty colors that won't affect your hair? 
If you're looking to actively dye your hair blonde via shampoo, I'm not sure how to go about that without frying your hair.
If just you want your shampoo to be pretty color, IMO micas are the way to go. They're finely ground shiny lab rocks, so the color doesn't go anywhere the rocks aren't, and as long as you rinse remotely well there shouldn't be enough of them left close enough to each other to color your hair. I'm not sure what resources are available in Portugal, but in the US most reputable body product crafting supply stores carry some.


----------



## earlene

I would suspect she means pigments that won't turn the blonde hair green or brassy or some other unsightly shade.

My hair is now white, but was blonde most of my life.  Now I use shampoo with a purple color to decrease brassiness that had happened when I used another shampoo.  I could probably DC the purple at this point, but I do still have some, so continue to use it.  I was going to use bluing, which was a commonly used color corrective used by white-haired woman for generations, but couldn't fine any in the stores.

So I would suggest blue or purple.


----------



## HowieRoll

Gaisy59 said:


> Just a note...i also have the DIY shampoo recipe and it is nice but she uses 73% SCI noodles and the safety value is only up to 55% at most. I called her on it and she got a little defensive. So i just did some adjustments.



I had a similar experience, Gaisy59.  Once I purchased the recipe I was surprised to see the SCI used at such a high percentage, surpassing my supplier's max usage rate by quite a bit (it was surprising especially since her listing explicitly states, "The ingredients included in these recipes have been deemed safe for use in the percentages provided.").  I did some digging around but the only SCI safety studies I could find rated it safe for use up to about 50%.  So I reached out and asked if they could kindly point me in the direction of which studies led them to conclude 73% was safe but they were unable to because I'm not sure such studies exist.  Now, I'm not sure this means a 73% usage is _unsafe_, just that it hasn't been proven safe beyond 50%-ish. I don't sell or give away shampoo bars, but if I did I would not use this recipe because of the liability of not having scientific backup proving the ingredients at the rates they are used were tested safe.


----------



## GemstonePony

I'm more of a mad scientist with my bars, and constantly tweak ingredients and numbers just to see what happens. However, the most I've gone is 50% SCI, and found it too harsh even with 20% oils and the rest E-waxes and whatnot.


----------



## KiwiMoose

GemstonePony said:


> I'm more of a mad scientist with my bars, and constantly tweak ingredients and numbers just to see what happens. However, the most I've gone is 50% SCI, and found it too harsh even with 20% oils and the rest E-waxes and whatnot.


I use it at 55%


----------



## Misschief

Sandra (of DIY Bath & Body) HAS addressed the issue of the high percentage rate of SCI. If you check the files in the DIY FB page, she posted an article in 2019, entitled "SCI Percentages ~ “I’ve been told that the maximum usage of SCI is 50%. So, why does your shampoo bar have 73%?"


----------



## AliOop

@Misschief for those of us not on FB, would you feel comfortable summarizing her response for us here? Or giving us links to any sources she quotes? Thank you


----------



## Misschief

AliOop said:


> @Misschief for those of us not on FB, would you feel comfortable summarizing her response for us here? Or giving us links to any sources she quotes? Thank you


Basically, she's saying that the products that mainly contain SCI are things like bottled shampoos and cleansers that also contain water. Shampoo bars are a concentrated product which is diluted as it is used, bringing the total percentage down. And her final paragraph, _"An average sized shampoo bar of 75 grams, with 73% SCI would have 54.75 grams of SCI. One 75 gram bar will make anywhere from 700 g - 800 g of liquid shampoo. If one took the time to do this, the SCI content of the liquid would be 54.75  grams (of SCI)  divided by 700 grams (total liquid shampoo) which would give you a total of 7.8% SCI in the whole batch, which of course is actually quite low. Even if I dropped that amount of liquid shampoo down to 600 grams total, the final % of SCI would still only be 9.1%. "_


----------



## AliOop

Misschief said:


> Basically, she's saying that the products that mainly contain SCI are things like bottled shampoos and cleansers that also contain water. Shampoo bars are a concentrated product which is diluted as it is used, bringing the total percentage down. And her final paragraph, _"An average sized shampoo bar of 75 grams, with 73% SCI would have 54.75 grams of SCI. One 75 gram bar will make anywhere from 700 g - 800 g of liquid shampoo. If one took the time to do this, the SCI content of the liquid would be 54.75  grams (of SCI)  divided by 700 grams (total liquid shampoo) which would give you a total of 7.8% SCI in the whole batch, which of course is actually quite low. Even if I dropped that amount of liquid shampoo down to 600 grams total, the final % of SCI would still only be 9.1%. "_


That makes sense. Thank you!


----------



## Misschief

soapysandie said:


> I want to make a syndet shampoo for blondes.Any idea which pigments I could use please?


You would want to look for Violet #2 for blonde or grey hair.


----------



## Quanta

GemstonePony said:


> I'm more of a mad scientist with my bars, and constantly tweak ingredients and numbers just to see what happens. However, the most I've gone is 50% SCI, and found it too harsh even with 20% oils and the rest E-waxes and whatnot.


Which other surfactants did you use with it? I am using cocamidopropyl betaine and sodium lauryl sulfoactetate and it seems pretty mild. My current bar formula is 53% SCI, 20% SLSa, and 9% CAPB.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Quanta said:


> Which other surfactants did you use with it? I am using cocamidopropyl betaine and sodium lauryl sulfoactetate and it seems pretty mild. My current bar formula is 53% SCI, 20% SLSa, and 9% CAPB.


I use 55% SCI, 4% SLSa (anymore than that and my head itches) I don't use CAPB, a small percentage of DLS and Capruyl glucoside and 10% foaming apple.


----------



## GemstonePony

Quanta said:


> Which other surfactants did you use with it? I am using cocamidopropyl betaine and sodium lauryl sulfoactetate and it seems pretty mild. My current bar formula is 53% SCI, 20% SLSa, and 9% CAPB.


Oh, I'd have to hunt down the scrap of paper I wrote that particular formula on. Cocamidapropyl betaine was probably a small percentage, and a little Polysorbate 80 might have been in there too. I shampoo my hair daily, so my formulations tend to be weak compared to commercial ones.
ETA: different hair types, skin types, and life styles all do better with different formulations. I don't mean to imply that high amounts of SCI or any other surfactant are wrong or bad. I was only intending to state what works for me, and I meant to imply that safety isn't the only consideration when trying to find the right formula for your hair.


----------



## Quanta

GemstonePony said:


> Oh, I'd have to hunt down the scrap of paper I wrote that particular formula on.


May I recommend Google Sheets? It makes it super easy to keep track of recipe tweaks and changes, and notes on what worked and what didn't. I love it. I'm more disorganized than everyone I know when I have to keep track of papers. You probably aren't as disorganized as I am but Sheets will probably still make it easier for you to keep track of recipe tweaks, if you experiment as much as I do. If you're interested I can share my spreadsheet template.



> Cocamidapropyl betaine was probably a small percentage, and a little Polysorbate 80 might have been in there too. I shampoo my hair daily, so my formulations tend to be weak compared to commercial ones.


I haven't tried polysorbate 80 yet. I haven't even bought any. What do you feel is the main benefit of using it in a shampoo bar?

Regarding weak shampoo, if by "weak" you mean it doesn't strip all the oil off your head, then I think that's a good shampoo no matter how often hair is washed. When the scalp is regularly stripped of oil, more oil is produced to replace it and the scalp just gets more oily. That's my experience anyway.

From what I have learned in my research, mixing multiple surfactants together makes a product milder. If you only have one or two, it tends to be harsher. So I use at least three in my bars and they're pretty mild. I have one with seven different surfactants (still mostly SCI though) and use it as body wash pretty frequently. I feel clean, but it removes so little oil from my skin that I don't feel like I need lotion after a shower. It's great. That one however is having a hard time staying together and not turning to mush, so I may re-formulate it. Looking at my formula I think I didn't have enough hardener in it.



> ETA: different hair types, skin types, and life styles all do better with different formulations. I don't mean to imply that high amounts of SCI or any other surfactant are wrong or bad. I was only intending to state what works for me, and I meant to imply that safety isn't the only consideration when trying to find the right formula for your hair.


Agreed. I customize shampoo and conditioner for my testers, based on hair type.


----------



## GemstonePony

Quanta said:


> May I recommend Google Sheets? It makes it super easy to keep track of recipe tweaks and changes, and notes on what worked and what didn't. I love it. I'm more disorganized than everyone I know when I have to keep track of papers. You probably aren't as disorganized as I am but Sheets will probably still make it easier for you to keep track of recipe tweaks, if you experiment as much as I do. If you're interested I can share my spreadsheet template.
> 
> 
> I haven't tried polysorbate 80 yet. I haven't even bought any. What do you feel is the main benefit of using it in a shampoo bar?
> 
> Regarding weak shampoo, if by "weak" you mean it doesn't strip all the oil off your head, then I think that's a good shampoo no matter how often hair is washed. When the scalp is regularly stripped of oil, more oil is produced to replace it and the scalp just gets more oily. That's my experience anyway.
> 
> From what I have learned in my research, mixing multiple surfactants together makes a product milder. If you only have one or two, it tends to be harsher. So I use at least three in my bars and they're pretty mild. I have one with seven different surfactants (still mostly SCI though) and use it as body wash pretty frequently. I feel clean, but it removes so little oil from my skin that I don't feel like I need lotion after a shower. It's great. That one however is having a hard time staying together and not turning to mush, so I may re-formulate it. Looking at my formula I think I didn't have enough hardener in it.
> 
> 
> Agreed. I customize shampoo and conditioner for my testers, based on hair type.


Oh, I know I need a new organizational system, but staying organized is so much work!.. and I just haven't tackled it in earnest yet.
PS-80 was to help the oils incorporate into the SCI mixture. SCI has a gentle reputation because it doesn't tend to bond as well with oils, which is just a little inconvenient when trying to incorporate oils into a melted SCI mixture. 
And I love my shampoo, I just didn't want to sound like I was looking down on everyone else's. Guess I must have overdone it.
Interesting to know about the surfactant combo, I would not have imagined that! Since what works for me is still working, I'll probably keep going with what I'm doing, but I'll keep that in mind when considering formulations.


----------



## HowieRoll

Misschief said:


> Basically, she's saying that the products that mainly contain SCI are things like bottled shampoos and cleansers that also contain water. Shampoo bars are a concentrated product which is diluted as it is used, bringing the total percentage down. And her final paragraph, _"An average sized shampoo bar of 75 grams, with 73% SCI would have 54.75 grams of SCI. One 75 gram bar will make anywhere from 700 g - 800 g of liquid shampoo. If one took the time to do this, the SCI content of the liquid would be 54.75  grams (of SCI)  divided by 700 grams (total liquid shampoo) which would give you a total of 7.8% SCI in the whole batch, which of course is actually quite low. Even if I dropped that amount of liquid shampoo down to 600 grams total, the final % of SCI would still only be 9.1%. "_



Thank you for posting this, Misschief.  It is similar to the response I received to my inquiry, as well.

If I may (and not directed at anyone in particular, just general thoughts for anyone who may be interested), the response didn't change my personal comfort level as it pertains to selling/gifting products that exceed a supplier's usage rate, especially by so much, only because worst-case-scenario if someone has a reaction and I'm taken to court I believe the onus would be on me to prove all ingredients were used within tested safety limits, among other things.  As a DIYer, I'm not paying for private toxicology testing so I must rely on supplier's guidelines and studies already available, and unfortunately, I've been unable to find any studies showing such a high level of SCI is safe (again, not meaning it's unsafe, just that I can't find where it's been proven safe at this usage rate, and this is a distinction I feel is important.  Another important note is just because I couldn't find such a study doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and if anyone is aware of one I'd love to see it!).  My issue with the Etsy recipe was that the sellers specifically stated the ingredients have been deemed safe for use in the percentages provided, but being "deemed safe" appears to be based on their own conjecture, not scientific data.  Because I'm a worry-wort it presents a liability issue I'm not personally comfortable with, but everyone has their own levels of risk and liability assessment.


----------



## Quanta

GemstonePony said:


> Oh, I know I need a new organizational system, but staying organized is so much work!.. and I just haven't tackled it in earnest yet.


My system is so easy, even I can do it! And that's saying a lot. If you'd like, I can start a new thread on it so this one doesn't get hijacked. I'll share my spreadsheets and method and you can see if you like it. I'll post a link here when I start that thread, maybe in the next day or two. My formulating spreadsheet I think is ready to share but I need to polish up my ingredient costs spreadsheet a little first. 



> PS-80 was to help the oils incorporate into the SCI mixture. SCI has a gentle reputation because it doesn't tend to bond as well with oils, which is just a little inconvenient when trying to incorporate oils into a melted SCI mixture.


Over at the Chemist Corner forum, I found out that oils in shampoo don't work the way most people think they do. Oils in a surfactant mixture are removed by the surfactants and don't deposit on the hair. When I discovered that I stopped putting so much oil in my shampoo but I still include a small amount (1% coconut 76°) because it helps it glide smoothly over the hair when applying (I tried it with and without). But to get oil to deposit on the hair/scalp, I use a conditioner bar which is 6% coconut oil, 5% shea butter and 5% cocoa butter. I also have two kinds of silicone in there and I think that's what is really making my hair silky but the oils/butters should be helping my scalp. I have noticed that my scalp seems healthier since I've been using my own products.



> And I love my shampoo, I just didn't want to sound like I was looking down on everyone else's. Guess I must have overdone it.
> Interesting to know about the surfactant combo, I would not have imagined that! Since what works for me is still working, I'll probably keep going with what I'm doing, but I'll keep that in mind when considering formulations.


If your own shampoo seems really mild, and you're using only one or two surfactants that are already mild on their own _and_ blending with oils, I suspect your bars are even milder partly because of the oils (which is probably the true function of the oils in your formula). I think it's the same way 100% coconut oil soap with a really high superfat is mild, it's because some of the soap is tied up removing oil from the superfat portion of the soap and so you don't get the full effect of coconut oil stripping oil from your skin. That's my theory anyway.


----------



## amd

Misschief said:


> Basically, she's saying that the products that mainly contain SCI are things like bottled shampoos and cleansers that also contain water. Shampoo bars are a concentrated product which is diluted as it is used, bringing the total percentage down. And her final paragraph, _"An average sized shampoo bar of 75 grams, with 73% SCI would have 54.75 grams of SCI. One 75 gram bar will make anywhere from 700 g - 800 g of liquid shampoo. If one took the time to do this, the SCI content of the liquid would be 54.75 grams (of SCI) divided by 700 grams (total liquid shampoo) which would give you a total of 7.8% SCI in the whole batch, which of course is actually quite low. Even if I dropped that amount of liquid shampoo down to 600 grams total, the final % of SCI would still only be 9.1%. "_





HowieRoll said:


> the response didn't change my personal comfort level as it pertains to selling/gifting products that exceed a supplier's usage rate,


If I may also add some information as well. When I first purchased the shampoo bar recipe, I noticed the high percentage of SCI and also saw the numerous defenses of it by the maker, so I decided to end all doubt in my mind and asked the two chemists that I know. They both debunked the dilution theory stated by the maker as "fallacy thinking". The maximum usage rate is 50-55%, regardless of the product used in. There is no control over how or when the shampoo bar is diluted and that should not be considered when formulating. Even concentrated products that are sold to be diluted by the user must maintain safe usage rates for all of their ingredients. I have taken this recipe and tweaked it to be within safe usage rates as well based on this advice.


----------



## violets2217

amd said:


> I have taken this recipe and tweaked it to be within safe usage rates as well based on this advice.


SO just out of curiosity .... what would you recommend to replace the 23% of SCI? What options are there? I probably won't be experimenting anytime soon, because I have enough shampoo bars to last a LONG while and I already love the bars I have. I'm sure the possibilities are endless just looking for ideas, I guess.
ETA: This morning I did order some VegeKeratin from Lotioncrafter....


----------



## Quanta

violets2217 said:


> SO just out of curiosity .... what would you recommend to replace the 23% of SCI? What options are there? I probably won't be experimenting anytime soon, because I have enough shampoo bars to last a LONG while and I already love the bars I have. I'm sure the possibilities are endless just looking for ideas, I guess.
> ETA: This morning I did order some VegeKeratin from Lotioncrafter....


What other powdered surfactants are already in the recipe, and at what percentage? If there's no SLSa, then I would use that. Mine are 53% SCI and 20% SLSa and it works well for me. There are other options depending on hair type.


----------



## violets2217

Quanta said:


> What other powdered surfactants are already in the recipe, and at what percentage? If there's no SLSa, then I would use that. Mine are 53% SCI and 20% SLSa and it works well for me. There are other options depending on hair type.


I've been searching various online solid shampoo bar recipes and noticed most use around 70% powdered surfactants... The recipe I bought uses both 73% SCI and 7% SLSa, so in theory I could just raise the amount of SLSa? I just like the hardness of my bars, they last forever and are very sudsy. I don't want to give up those qualities. Thanks for the reply...I'm gonna keep researching and check out other recipes, but next time will probably adjust the SLSa....


----------



## Quanta

violets2217 said:


> I've been searching various online solid shampoo bar recipes and noticed most use around 70% powdered surfactants... The recipe I bought uses both 73% SCI and 7% SLSa, so in theory I could just raise the amount of SLSa? I just like the hardness of my bars, they last forever and are very sudsy. I don't want to give up those qualities. Thanks for the reply...I'm gonna keep researching and check out other recipes, but next time will probably adjust the SLSa....


Honestly, if you up the SLSa a bit and lower the SCI, your bars may well be even more sudsy. I get plenty of lather from mine, and I have less SCI and more SLSa than yours. Don't add more liquid and don't lower the total powder, you're just swapping out some of one powder for another. It shouldn't make your bars softer.


----------



## Gaisy59

HowieRoll said:


> Thank you for posting this, Misschief.  It is similar to the response I received to my inquiry, as well.
> 
> If I may (and not directed at anyone in particular, just general thoughts for anyone who may be interested), the response didn't change my personal comfort level as it pertains to selling/gifting products that exceed a supplier's usage rate, especially by so much, only because worst-case-scenario if someone has a reaction and I'm taken to court I believe the onus would be on me to prove all ingredients were used within tested safety limits, among other things.  As a DIYer, I'm not paying for private toxicology testing so I must rely on supplier's guidelines and studies already available, and unfortunately, I've been unable to find any studies showing such a high level of SCI is safe (again, not meaning it's unsafe, just that I can't find where it's been proven safe at this usage rate, and this is a distinction I feel is important.  Another important note is just because I couldn't find such a study doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and if anyone is aware of one I'd love to see it!).  My issue with the Etsy recipe was that the sellers specifically stated the ingredients have been deemed safe for use in the percentages provided, but being "deemed safe" appears to be based on their own conjecture, not scientific data.  Because I'm a worry-wort it presents a liability issue I'm not personally comfortable with, but everyone has their own levels of risk and liability assessment.


I agree with you. And just to make a point i think she had to make a statement because a few other people told her about the high level of SCI. I personally found her response to my question a bit rude, but i would never put her product down. As stated before i just made adjustments. Having said this i then proceeded to follow KiwiMoose down her rabbit hole and developed my own recipe


----------



## amd

violets2217 said:


> SO just out of curiosity .... what would you recommend to replace the 23% of SCI? What options are there?


I don't have the exact % handy, but I used the SCI at the max, I think it's 55% and that seems to jive with what I remember my recipe ending up at, and then played with the amount of SLSa and CAPB. I used powdered SCI rather than the noodles (I never could get the noodles melted enough to not come off the shampoo bar in bits, and every time my husband dropped it in the shower it would break apart) and I discovered I could go a bit higher on the CAPB using the powder than I could with the noodles. With the noodles it seemed like adding more CAPB made the bar really sticky and took several weeks of curing/drying to get the stickiness to go away. I did have to watch how much SLSa I used because it got to a point where it stripped out my cheap hair color. So it was a bit of playing around to get something that was a good pH (my goal was 5 or less, what I use now is 4.5) and held it's shape nicely. I press mine, so it needed to be workable for that without too much fuss.


----------



## AliOop

amd said:


> So it was a bit of playing around to get something that was a good pH (my goal was 5 or less, what I use now is 4.5) and held it's shape nicely. I press mine, so it needed to be workable for that without too much fuss.


I think mine are hovering around 6 or so, and noticed that it pulled out a fair amount of my recent color job, as well.

Is there anything you feel comfortable sharing regarding how you brought yours down? No worries if that is too proprietary and not something you want to share here.


----------



## amd

Trial and error, I don't understand the chemistry enough to understand how the different ingredients will affect pH, so mostly I had to play around with the ingredients I had available and then working within those safe usage rates. It helped that I had very clear requirements for what I needed from the bar - the first being that it had to NOT be a pita to press. From there it was tweaking to get a bar that wasn't sticky, warped or broke easily, and then finally testing the pH. Occasionally heading back to the drawing board to start over when the pH was too high. I was making pretty small bars - around 30g each for these experiments as mostly I just wanted to be able to test the pH, and I could tell by feel if they would press or not. Keep in mind, I have a business and had created a budget for playing with shampoo bar ingredients, so this wasn't painful for me. It may be painful for the average home DIY to end up with something that doesn't work.

I'm not as good about checking SMF when I'm at home... but I might have something that I sent to someone else - maybe Gaisy, that I could reference.


----------



## Gaisy59

amd said:


> Trial and error, I don't understand the chemistry enough to understand how the different ingredients will affect pH, so mostly I had to play around with the ingredients I had available and then working within those safe usage rates. It helped that I had very clear requirements for what I needed from the bar - the first being that it had to NOT be a pita to press. From there it was tweaking to get a bar that wasn't sticky, warped or broke easily, and then finally testing the pH. Occasionally heading back to the drawing board to start over when the pH was too high. I was making pretty small bars - around 30g each for these experiments as mostly I just wanted to be able to test the pH, and I could tell by feel if they would press or not. Keep in mind, I have a business and had created a budget for playing with shampoo bar ingredients, so this wasn't painful for me. It may be painful for the average home DIY to end up with something that doesn't work.
> 
> I'm not as good about checking SMF when I'm at home... but I might have something that I sent to someone else - maybe Gaisy, that I could reference.


Hi all. Ya i never did play with her recipe. In all honesty i was ticked off with her snarky answer. What happened for me was that I decided to make my own recipe from scratch and it came out to 4-4.5. I was following in KiwiMoose’s footsteps and tried to make it friendly. I like it very much and my sister-in-law took it to her cabin and her crew there liked it.

In fact, amd you and i were discussing it at one point.


----------



## amd

Ahhh... yes... I found a version I had tested in March 2020, it came at 5:
SCI 46%
BTMS50 13%
CAPB 15%
Cocoa Butter 10%
Additives at 2% each
    DL Panthenol powder
    Fragrance
    Broccoli Seed Oil
    Glycerin
    Bamboo Extract Powder
    Agar Agar
    Silk Amino Acids (liquid)

I've since tweaked this bar with the discovery of SCI powder so that I could bump up the SCI and CAPB, added SLSa back in, and dumped some of the additives - glycerin and agar agar made the bar sticky, I think I also switched out the cocoa butter for walnut oil as I had some that was coming to the end of its shelf life. I really don't notice a difference between oils either so I swap them out depending on what I'm not using in other products that does need to be used up. Broccoli seed oil didnt seem to make a noticeable difference to either the pH or the bar performance, but I did like the bamboo extract powder so I kept that. Oh, and I think I went back to equal parts BTMS25 and cetyl alcohol, or maybe equal parts BTMS50 and cetyl alcohol. I wish I could remember better (and you think I would as I made an unfragranced batch a month ago for a customer...).


----------



## amd

Gaisy59 said:


> In fact, amd you and i were discussing it at one point.


I found that conversation! I've done a lot of tweaking since then. I used a combination of looking at the Etsy recipe and making some semi-educated guesses from other maker labels. The one above is from Royalty Soap (which only has 2 surfactants), although the Royalty Soap bar had high pH and fried my hair. It was good for a few days, and then I realized all the extra body I was seeing was actually damage to my hair, that's when I tested the RS bar pH. My tweaked recipe is 5 as mentioned, so I guess my semi-educated guesses weren't that great (or were they? ha) as I would have had a higher pH. Regardless, after the 2-3 weeks that it took for the bar to dry and stop being sticky it was a nice bar.

I also like Humble Bee and Me rhassoul clay bar (using SCS), although I switch out the rhassoul clay for bentonite.


----------



## Gaisy59

amd said:


> I found that conversation! I've done a lot of tweaking since then. I used a combination of looking at the Etsy recipe and making some semi-educated guesses from other maker labels. The one above is from Royalty Soap (which only has 2 surfactants), although the Royalty Soap bar had high pH and fried my hair. It was good for a few days, and then I realized all the extra body I was seeing was actually damage to my hair, that's when I tested the RS bar pH. My tweaked recipe is 5 as mentioned, so I guess my semi-educated guesses weren't that great (or were they? ha) as I would have had a higher pH. Regardless, after the 2-3 weeks that it took for the bar to dry and stop being sticky it was a nice bar.
> 
> I also like Humble Bee and Me rhassoul clay bar (using SCS), although I switch out the rhassoul clay for bentonite.


Here is what i was working with:
SCI                  50g
SLSa                  5 g
Varisoft.            10g
Foamin apple.  10g
Capryl gluco.      5 g
Cetyl alcohol.      5 g
Kokum butter.      5 g
Hemisqualane      2 g
Lactic acid            1 g
Panthenol.             1 g
Germall plus.         1 g
Fragrance.             5 g

Dahila told me to skip panthenol in the shampoo and use it in conditioner. So i have to readjust for my next batch. It was soft so i think i will change the liquids and up the slsa a bit and/or SCI to 52


----------



## KiwiMoose

^mine is similar to @Gaisy's with a few tweaks - if you look at the opening posts of this thread I think I have outlined it there.  My pH is adjust ed by adding lactic acid - and the last batch tested at 5.3.  The one cited early in this thread was 4.6 I think.  Just add more acid if you want to lower the pH @AliOop - but be careful because it only needs a little bit (like a few grams).


----------



## AliOop

@KiwiMoose thank you so much! I'll go back and take some notes this time.


----------



## Quanta

amd said:


> It may be painful for the average home DIY to end up with something that doesn't work.


In the very beginning of my shampoo trials, it was all trial and error. Mostly error. So the errors got used as body wash just to use them up and nothing was wasted. But I plan to sell so to me it's worth making sure I have something worth selling. I have a few more tweaks to try but my testers are giving me positive feedback so I'm close.


----------



## AliOop

amd said:


> I also like Humble Bee and Me rhassoul clay bar (using SCS), although I switch out the rhassoul clay for bentonite.


Interesting... bentonite is super drying to my face and hair, but works well in my homemade toothpaste. I'll look back at that Humblebee recipe and see if maybe I can replace some of my SCI with rhassoul clay instead. My hair loves rhassoul - thanks!



Quanta said:


> .. the errors got used as body wash just to use them up and nothing was wasted.


Great point!


----------



## violets2217

amd said:


> I don't have the exact % handy, but I used the SCI at the max, I think it's 55% and that seems to jive with what I remember my recipe ending up at, and then played with the amount of SLSa and CAPB. I used powdered SCI rather than the noodles (I never could get the noodles melted enough to not come off the shampoo bar in bits, and every time my husband dropped it in the shower it would break apart) and I discovered I could go a bit higher on the CAPB using the powder than I could with the noodles. With the noodles it seemed like adding more CAPB made the bar really sticky and took several weeks of curing/drying to get the stickiness to go away. I did have to watch how much SLSa I used because it got to a point where it stripped out my cheap hair color. So it was a bit of playing around to get something that was a good pH (my goal was 5 or less, what I use now is 4.5) and held it's shape nicely. I press mine, so it needed to be workable for that without too much fuss.


Thanks for the reply! I wasn't going to but COULDN'T TAKE IT & I tweaked my recipe a bit today and made a couple bars to try out. I normally use powder and noodle SCI and SLSa... So basically I have those 3 at around 25% each with the rest additives. I ended up heating everything in a double boiler except the FO and Preservative, so they mixed well but took forever to cool down and were a bit sticky when pressed, but pressed so much easier. Hopefully they are not still sticky in a couple days & ready to try out.


----------



## Quanta

Quanta said:


> GemstonePony said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I know I need a new organizational system, but staying organized is so much work!.. and I just haven't tackled it in earnest yet.
> 
> 
> 
> My system is so easy, even I can do it! And that's saying a lot. If you'd like, I can start a new thread on it so this one doesn't get hijacked. I'll share my spreadsheets and method and you can see if you like it. I'll post a link here when I start that thread, maybe in the next day or two. My formulating spreadsheet I think is ready to share but I need to polish up my ingredient costs spreadsheet a little first.
Click to expand...

OK, so, "a day or two" turned into a week or two, but here it is: My spreadsheets for formulating/cost/testing


----------



## Misschief

After reading this thread a couple of times, I went to the SCM webstite and purchased Susan's Shampoo Formulating ebook and her Conditioner Formulating ebok. Right now, I'm playing with two of the recipes and have a bunch of ingredients in my Making Cosmetics shopping cart. 

The first recipe I tried is one with botanical extracts; I made one 75 gram bar and we've tried it and quite like it. My daughter, son-in-law and the two grands are here and they've all tried it and like it as well. In that one, I used Chamomile and Grapeseed Extracts. The SCI is at 30%; other surfactants used were CAPB and SLsa. I don't have a pH meter (yet) but it looks to be around 5, using the test strips (I know, they're not very accurate but they give me an idea of where the pH is at). 

The second recipe I tried is a hydrating shampoo (I have quite dry hair) with added humectants. I made 150 grams and have given my daughter one bar to take home and report on. In this one, I used Propanediol 1,3 (because I just happened to have it) and Hydrolized Rice Protein. We haven't tried it yet but I am really looking forward to trying it. pH on this one looks to be about 6 and may need a bit of adjusting.


----------



## amd

This morning I was cleaning out my email box and found a Humble Bee and Me email from a few months ago with an updated shampoo recipe: More Mango Sulfate-Free Shampoo Bar - Humblebee & Me
Out of curiosity (and because I'm in procrastination mode on the things I really should be doing) I decided to try it with a few tweaks.
I swapped out the water soluble dye for mica
The sodium C14-16 with SLSa (which she says you can do) and dropped it 1%
The Mango butter for walnut oil (on hand)
The polyquaternium 7 for honeyquat (on hand)
Added 1% silk amino acids because I'm just a fan of having it in my shampoo bars 

The mixture was not as nicely moldable as shown in Marie's video or blog, so I wound up adding a bit of water (1 TBSP) to the mixture to get it to a stick together moldable consistency. I suspect either my SCI is finer than hers or swapping in the SLSa made my mixture more dry, so I followed her troubleshooting recommendation to add water. It did not press very prettily, but I think that was because my mixture was still a bit too dry and I could have added more water. The recipe was however more easier to put together than my current recipe, and I quite like the appearance of the puck (minus the cracks which I think I can formulate out with more water). My test bar is 100g, which is what I'm shooting for in my product lineup. Next will be letting it cure for 3 days, testing pH, and then trying it on my hair. I'm a bit nervous at the high SLSa rate, but if I'm not willing to try it why would I expect my customers to?


----------



## Misschief

I've been playing around with shampoo bars this past week. I downloaded Swift Crafty Monkey's shampoo bar e-book and have been reading and trying her formulations, playing with them. So far, I've made three different bars, gave one (that I'd made two of) to my daughter, and have tried two of the three. I just made the third one yesterday and haven't tried it yet as I only wash my hair once every 5-6 days, usually.









						Hair Care is Self-Care - shampoo experiments
					

Sometime over the last week or so, I managed to catch a cold - sneezing, runny nose, a bit of a cough (I always have a cough due to one of ...




					www.missionmeadowssoapery.com


----------



## Gaisy59

Misschief said:


> I've been playing around with shampoo bars this past week. I downloaded Swift Crafty Monkey's shampoo bar e-book and have been reading and trying her formulations, playing with them. So far, I've made three different bars, gave one (that I'd made two of) to my daughter, and have tried two of the three. I just made the third one yesterday and haven't tried it yet as I only wash my hair once every 5-6 days, usually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hair Care is Self-Care - shampoo experiments
> 
> 
> Sometime over the last week or so, I managed to catch a cold - sneezing, runny nose, a bit of a cough (I always have a cough due to one of ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.missionmeadowssoapery.com


Hi! My first thing is where did you get the square mold?? I hate round shampoo bars but I can’t find a deep enough square one for my 100 gm bar.

And next, i gave my shampoo bar to my sister in law and she took it to the lake where four different hair types used it with all of them liking it. My hair dresser tells me that it isn’t the shampoo so much as the conditioner that makes the difference. I have thick, wavy hair.

hHaving said that, most people believe that different shampoos are for different hair types .

So now that i have muddled the waters i would say the decision is yours


----------



## Misschief

Gaisy59 said:


> Hi! My first thing is where did you get the square mold?? I hate round shampoo bars but I can’t find a deep enough square one for my 100 gm bar.
> 
> And next, i gave my shampoo bar to my sister in law and she took it to the lake where four different hair types used it with all of them liking it. My hair dresser tells me that it isn’t the shampoo so much as the conditioner that makes the difference. I have thick, wavy hair.
> 
> hHaving said that, most people believe that different shampoos are for different hair types .
> 
> So now that i have muddled the waters i would say the decision is yours


Thank you for the input.  I got the mold through Amazon. That bar is about 75 gm. Here's the CDN link: 






						Petite Silicone Mold for Soap, Bread, Loaf, Muffin, Brownie, Cornbread, Cheesecake, Pudding, and More (9 Cavity-Square): Amazon.ca: Home & Kitchen
					

Petite Silicone Mold for Soap, Bread, Loaf, Muffin, Brownie, Cornbread, Cheesecake, Pudding, and More (9 Cavity-Square): Amazon.ca: Home & Kitchen



					www.amazon.ca


----------



## Quanta

Misschief said:


> I've been playing around with shampoo bars this past week. I downloaded Swift Crafty Monkey's shampoo bar e-book and have been reading and trying her formulations, playing with them. So far, I've made three different bars, gave one (that I'd made two of) to my daughter, and have tried two of the three. I just made the third one yesterday and haven't tried it yet as I only wash my hair once every 5-6 days, usually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hair Care is Self-Care - shampoo experiments
> 
> 
> Sometime over the last week or so, I managed to catch a cold - sneezing, runny nose, a bit of a cough (I always have a cough due to one of ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.missionmeadowssoapery.com


A lot of your ingredients that are meant to nourish the hair work better in conditioners, and just wash out of the hair when used in a shampoo. I think that's the basis of Gaisy's hairdresser's claim that conditioners make more of a difference than shampoo. If you think about it, it makes sense because shampoo is meant to remove stuff from your hair and scalp, and conditioner is meant to leave stuff in. So if you put stuff in shampoo that you want to stay in your hair, it can't stay because the shampoo does its job and washes it all out.

When I first started making shampoo, I was trying to make a 2-in-1 conditioning shampoo. I never could get it to work and the more research I did, the more I realized I really should be making two separate products, especially for my hair type. I then started making a conditioner bar and moved all my vitamins and hydrolyzed proteins from the shampoo to the conditioner, and noticed a huge difference in my hair, and the only difference in the shampoo was the bar was finally hardening properly without all the extras in it. If you have a really healthy scalp, and you don't need a conditioner (I don't recall you mentioning if you do or not), then you probably don't need panthenol and proteins in your hair care products. 

I learned this over at the Chemist Corner forum, from people who formulate hair care products for a living and know this stuff inside and out. It was an "Aha!" moment for me.


----------



## amd

I second Gaisy, make one formula, at most two. From my hair dresser: there is a reason they have one type of shampoo and conditioner at the wash station - because hair type doesn't matter with a quality product. And most people don't accurately know their hair type anyways.

My plan for my shampoo lineup is one good formula that I can match up with my scrub and lotion lineup, and one formula with a specialty detox type.


----------



## Gaisy59

Quanta said:


> A lot of your ingredients that are meant to nourish the hair





amd said:


> I second Gaisy, make one formula, at most two. From my hair dresser: there is a reason they have one type of shampoo and conditioner



Yep and yep. You both said it much better and exactly what i mean.


----------



## Misschief

@Gaisy59  and @Quanta, I appreciate what you're saying. I also make, and use, solid conditioner bars. It isn't as if I'm a total newb to this. I've been reading a lot of SCM's website and her ebook and the recipe with the extracts, as well as the humectants are her recipes. I'm trying them to see which direction I'd like to take.


----------



## Quanta

Misschief said:


> @Gaisy59  and @Quanta, I appreciate what you're saying. I also make, and use, solid conditioner bars. It isn't as if I'm a total newb to this. I've been reading a lot of SCM's website and her ebook and the recipe with the extracts, as well as the humectants are her recipes. I'm trying them to see which direction I'd like to take.


I didn't mean to imply I think you're new to this. I apologize if I came across that way. Personally, I never even thought about stuff washing out with shampoo until it was pointed out by a professional formulator. Most people don't think about that because the commercial advertising we've had drilled into us our whole lives says that panthenol in shampoo will stick to your hair. The scientists who study this stuff say that it can't stick because shampoo removes things like that.
Regarding Susan, I think that most of the time she's spot on with her formulas, I just don't always agree with her on the efficacy of some of her additives. That comes from what I've read on the Chemist Corner forum from people who know better than I do. That's not to say that she doesn't know what she's doing (most of the time, she does), but when science doesn't back her up, or contradicts her, I'll go with the science of what we know.


----------



## violets2217

Misschief said:


> Thank you for the input.  I got the mold through Amazon. That bar is about 75 gm. Here's the CDN link:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Petite Silicone Mold for Soap, Bread, Loaf, Muffin, Brownie, Cornbread, Cheesecake, Pudding, and More (9 Cavity-Square): Amazon.ca: Home & Kitchen
> 
> 
> Petite Silicone Mold for Soap, Bread, Loaf, Muffin, Brownie, Cornbread, Cheesecake, Pudding, and More (9 Cavity-Square): Amazon.ca: Home & Kitchen
> 
> 
> 
> www.amazon.ca


I went to look at your mold link and I accidentally change the country. On my Amazon app. I couldn’t figure out where all my orders and wishlist went and it took me forever to figure out how to switch it back! Lol! That’s a cool mold BTW!


----------



## Misschief

violets2217 said:


> I went to look at your mold link and I accidentally change the country. On my Amazon app. I couldn’t figure out where all my orders and wishlist went and it took me forever to figure out how to switch it back! Lol! That’s a cool mold BTW!


It's one I use a lot. I use it mainly for leftover bits of soap batter; they're the perfect guest soap size (IMHO) and my customers love them.


----------



## The_Phoenix

Chiming in here because I’ve been experimenting with syndet bars. The variety of ingredients one could use to make a syndet bar is head-spinning.

Anyway, I’ve abandoned the “pourable” technique. It’s messy, fussy, and annoying. By the time the mixture is cool enough to add my preservative, it’s a big mass and I have to wrestle with it to incorporate it and a FO. I much prefer making them in my mixer.


----------



## amd

The_Phoenix said:


> Chiming in here because I’ve been experimenting with syndet bars. The variety of ingredients one could use to make a syndet bar is head-spinning.


Agree! I had been playing with shampoo bars end of summer and a bit last fall until lotions took over as my new obsession. Now that I've gotten that bug worked out of my system, I'm back to playing with shampoo bars. This "season" of experiments is going back to less is more, which I had started last fall just to narrow down what does what in the shampoo bars (evidenced by actual use, not just by reading). Over the last few days I've become very intrigued by a few pared down versions (see my Sunday post above), and am looking forward to further experimenting with them again.


----------



## amd

I was too impatient to wait 1 more day, so I tested the HumbleBee and Me (with modifications as noted in post) last night. Ph tested at 5.06, so that is very good for me. It was also rock hard.

The shampoo bar lathered the quickest I have ever had a shampoo bar lather (I assume this is because of the absence of conditioners like btms and cetyl alcohol), it was super creamy and felt really luxurious to use. I feel that because I didn't have to work to lather the bar, I used a lot less to get a good head of suds. (I have long thick hair, about halfway down my back). I followed with my normal conditioner (Herbal Essences, don't judge lol) This morning my hair is very soft, smooth and shiny. 

I'm happy with the first day results, but as I did make a big bar (100g) I'll continue to test and evaluate over quite a few weeks. My husband will also test as he has very different hair than me (fine, thin and oily).

I rather like the idea of this super simplified bar, other than the honeyquat, it's all ingredients that I use in other products, which makes it more affordable and less waste for ordering ingredients.


----------



## Gaisy59

Per


amd said:


> I was too impatient to wait 1 more day, so I tested the HumbleBee and Me (with modifications as noted in post) last night. Ph tested at 5.06, so that is very good for me. It was also rock hard.
> 
> The shampoo bar lathered the quickest I have ever had a shampoo bar lather (I assume this is because of the absence of conditioners like btms and cetyl alcohol), it was super creamy and felt really luxurious to use. I feel that because I didn't have to work to lather the bar, I used a lot less to get a good head of suds. (I have long thick hair, about halfway down my back). I followed with my normal conditioner (Herbal Essences, don't judge lol) This morning my hair is very soft, smooth and shiny.
> 
> I'm happy with the first day results, but as I did make a big bar (100g) I'll continue to test and evaluate over quite a few weeks. My husband will also test as he has very different hair than me (fine, thin and oily).
> 
> I rather like the idea of this super simplified bar, other than the honeyquat, it's all ingredients that I use in other products, which makes it more affordable and less waste for ordering ingredients.
> [/QUO
> Perfect! Please do keep us posted. Any waves/curls in that long thick hair? That’s what i have so i am very interested in your results.


----------



## Gaisy59

Sorry didn’t realize it would use your whole quote


----------



## tnana1

I have been following this with great excitement, I am new to shampoo bars and conditioning bars. I follow Marie on humblebeeandme, she is wonderful. I must say I am overwhelmed with all your great knowledge on this subject, I’m wondering if there is a base recipe for shampoo bars anyone could share? I ordered a Ebook from making with miss Doyle and to be honest I am very confused on all the science stuff, it’s been awhile since I sat in science class.... is there a simple way to understand? Any help will be great, thanks for any help. Therese


----------



## violets2217

tnana1 said:


> I have been following this with great excitement, I am new to shampoo bars and conditioning bars. I follow Marie on humblebeeandme, she is wonderful. I must say I am overwhelmed with all your great knowledge on this subject, I’m wondering if there is a base recipe for shampoo bars anyone could share? I ordered a Ebook from making with miss Doyle and to be honest I am very confused on all the science stuff, it’s been awhile since I sat in science class.... is there a simple way to understand? Any help will be great, thanks for any help. Therese



This post






						Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials
					

I also like Humble Bee and Me rhassoul clay bar (using SCS), although I switch out the rhassoul clay for bentonite.  Interesting... bentonite is super drying to my face and hair, but works well in my homemade toothpaste. I'll look back at that Humblebee recipe and see if maybe I can replace some...




					www.soapmakingforum.com
				




posted By @amd seems like a pretty simple recipe & I’m sure she will keep us updated on how she likes it. I’m gonna try it on my next day off just because I have so much fun making shampoo bars!

good luck!


----------



## tnana1

Thanks for the fast reply. I’ll look at it. Therese


----------



## amd

@Gaisy59 When my hair is shorter it has a natural wave to it (my mom has natural super curly hair), but it's thick enough that when it gets past shoulder length it almost acts as if it's to heavy to hold the wave. My hairdresser says it shouldn't behave that way, but she doesn't have a better explanation for it either (and she's been doing my hair for 26 years, so she's been with me through all hair lengths from pixie to the current length). I do have to deal with frizziness during humidity so I change up my hair care seasonally. (And by changing up my hair care I mean switch to a leave-in conditioner and add a silicone-based frizz fighting product - that's next on my list because I'm not thrilled with adding silicones to my hair now that I'm learning more.)

@tnana1 Actually, this is the post that references the shampoo bar recipe that I'm currently testing: Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials
Although the clay bar mentioned in the post that violets shared is one of my favorites too. I wouldn't have any problem recommending the HB&M More Mango recipe to a beginner, definitely watch the video so you can see the consistency you're going for, read the blog post, it's all pretty straightforward. And bonus points because the recipe is so moldable you don't need any special molds, presses, or equipment. Although if you haven't worked with powdered SCI before I very strongly encourage you to get the good filter mask, like Marie wears in her video. You can find them at most hardware type stores for around $30. They are a needed investment. When I work with the SCI, I open my window (small basement window), and run a fan in addition to wearing the filtered mask. It's happened that I have forgotten to close my door, and my husband has come into the laundry room (next door to my soap space) and he has had turn around and leave because he's coughing. It's easily airborne and not something to mess with. Hope that doesn't scare you to not try making shampoo bars but does encourage you to take care of your lungs!

Day 2 of the More Mango with Modifications: I am thoroughly looking forward to washing my hair just to enjoy that decadent lather! I just can't get over it. I noticed it a bit yesterday, and definitely noticed it today, but my hair was a bit more tangled than usual when brushing this morning. Not horribly tangled, just a few small tangles. I wonder if using the polyquaternium-7 instead of the honeyquat would fix that. I do think that some detangler/conditioner in shampoos are needed, otherwise I wouldn't have this light tangling when I didn't have it before. My previous shampoo bar had BTMS-50 and Cetyl Alcohol, so it was higher in conditioning ingredients. Otherwise my hair is soft, shiny, and I haven't seen any sign of my (salon) color washing out or fading excessively. No scalp irritation, I was a bit worried about that with the higher SLSa as that can be an irritant and my scalp is a bit sensitive.

I will take a break from washing my hair tonight (I try to only wash my hair 4-5x a week because I'm lazy and gross like that). I'm going to throw this bar in my husband's shower for him to try on his fine, thin, oily hair - plus he's my shampoo bar durability tester as he is good for dropping the shampoo bar and breaking it every.dang.time.


----------



## Quanta

amd said:


> I do have to deal with frizziness during humidity so I change up my hair care seasonally. (And by changing up my hair care I mean switch to a leave-in conditioner and add a silicone-based frizz fighting product - that's next on my list because I'm not thrilled with adding silicones to my hair now that I'm learning more.)


I have been adding silicones in very small amounts to my conditioner bars. I also put some in a leave-in spray I made, of which I gave some to one of my sisters who has hair like mine, and some to my mother whose hair type is very different. My mother says it helps a lot with taming the frizz. My leave-in also has BTMS, cetrimonium chloride, honeyquat, silk protein, and panthenol. I need to do a series of tests to see which ingredients are really doing all the work, and formulate around those ingredients.

Silicones are good for your hair and skin, and not so good for the environment in waste water. At least, we don't know yet what the long term effects are of silicones in the environment. At least Cyclopentasiloxane evaporates off and does not get washed down the drain, especially in a leave-in spray. I use that one and Dimethicone right now.



> @tnana1 Actually, this is the post that references the shampoo bar recipe that I'm currently testing: Syndet Shampoo Bar Trials
> Although the clay bar mentioned in the post that violets shared is one of my favorites too. I wouldn't have any problem recommending the HB&M More Mango recipe to a beginner, definitely watch the video so you can see the consistency you're going for, read the blog post, it's all pretty straightforward. And bonus points because the recipe is so moldable you don't need any special molds, presses, or equipment. Although if you haven't worked with powdered SCI before I very strongly encourage you to get the good filter mask, like Marie wears in her video. You can find them at most hardware type stores for around $30. They are a needed investment. When I work with the SCI, I open my window (small basement window), and run a fan in addition to wearing the filtered mask. It's happened that I have forgotten to close my door, and my husband has come into the laundry room (next door to my soap space) and he has had turn around and leave because he's coughing. It's easily airborne and not something to mess with. Hope that doesn't scare you to not try making shampoo bars but does encourage you to take care of your lungs!


The mask she wears in the video is an Elipse, made by GVS: https://www.amazon.com/GVS-SPR457-E...pse+P100+Dust+Mask&qid=1618517829&sr=8-3&th=1

It is the mask that I use and I wholeheartedly recommend it, and I'm not just saying that because a GVS vendor rep gave me a free one so I would promote the product. Once I started using mine, I decided that I would have felt like I got my money's worth if I'd had to pay full price. It is super comfortable and actually seals well. It is easy to take apart and clean. Today I made a few bars and wore one of my husband's cloth COVID masks that he wears to work because my Elipse mask was in the garage (I use it for woodworking too) and the cloth mask was right there in the kitchen, and I did end up having to hold my breath anyway because those cloth masks just do not keep anything out.



> Day 2 of the More Mango with Modifications: I am thoroughly looking forward to washing my hair just to enjoy that decadent lather! I just can't get over it. I noticed it a bit yesterday, and definitely noticed it today, but my hair was a bit more tangled than usual when brushing this morning. Not horribly tangled, just a few small tangles. I wonder if using the polyquaternium-7 instead of the honeyquat would fix that. I do think that some detangler/conditioner in shampoos are needed, otherwise I wouldn't have this light tangling when I didn't have it before. My previous shampoo bar had BTMS-50 and Cetyl Alcohol, so it was higher in conditioning ingredients. Otherwise my hair is soft, shiny, and I haven't seen any sign of my (salon) color washing out or fading excessively. No scalp irritation, I was a bit worried about that with the higher SLSa as that can be an irritant and my scalp is a bit sensitive.


I am going to buy some polyquaternium-7 the next time I place an order with MakeYourOwn.Buzz. I want to know how well it works compared to honeyquat, which is what I've been using in my conditioner.
I do put BTMS 25 with some extra Cetyl Alcohol in my shampoo bars. That's about the only conditioning I have in them, and I have found that having conditioners in my shampoo makes it easier to apply to my hair because it is more slippery. All my other conditioning/detangling ingredients go in the conditioner bar. If my hair gets particularly tangled, I comb it gently as I rinse out the conditioner. That works well for me. My hair is super, super fine and breaks easily so I have to be careful how I get the tangles out. 



> I will take a break from washing my hair tonight (I try to only wash my hair 4-5x a week because I'm lazy and gross like that). I'm going to throw this bar in my husband's shower for him to try on his fine, thin, oily hair - plus he's my shampoo bar durability tester as he is good for dropping the shampoo bar and breaking it every.dang.time.


I usually wash my hair about 3-4 times a week, because I have found that I don't need to wash it more than that. When I was a teenager and even well into my 20's, my hair was super oily. I washed it every day and within 20-22 hours it was oily again. It has gotten much drier as I've gotten older, but I think part of the reason it used to be so oily was because I was washing it too frequently. I find that the less I wash it, the less oily it is.

I don't think I've ever made a shampoo bar hard enough to break when dropped. My problem is usually the opposite, I can't get them hard enough to stay together until the end of the bar.


----------



## amd

Quanta said:


> I don't think I've ever made a shampoo bar hard enough to break when dropped. My problem is usually the opposite, I can't get them hard enough to stay together until the end of the bar.


They're not hard, that's why they break when he drops them. I have the same problem when I use noodles in bars, they break when they get to the last third of the bar.

Shampoo bar went to hubby's shower to test. Passed the durability test. This morning he told me he really likes the lather on the bar. He used it on his beard too and no skin irritation (which is usually an issue). He wasn't sure if it was the shampoo bar, or if he just got lucky, but his hair did what he wanted it to today - which is usually not the case. He currently has this style of hair, so getting it to stay in place without flopping all over the place (or a pony tail) is a challenge for him.





He wants to continue testing for a few weeks, so now I need to decide if I'm going to shower in the basement or just make myself a second bar for my shower. More than likely I'll make HIM a second bar with a more manly scent (the test bar I made is scented in peach, lol) and take my back my bar. This will give me a chance to play with exactly how much water to add to smooth things out better for molding (ETA) for IF I decide to continue using this recipe.


----------



## Quanta

amd said:


> They're not hard, that's why they break when he drops them. I have the same problem when I use noodles in bars, they break when they get to the last third of the bar.


I'm really confused then. I'm picturing a brittle bar that snaps in half when dropped. Do you mean that dropping it accelerates its progression into mush? Because that happens to mine sometimes when I get close to the end of the bar. They get soft and separate into pieces, and I just pick up one of those little pieces and just sort of smoosh it into my hair to use them up. That happens sooner if it's been dropped.


----------



## tnana1

amd, thank you so much for all the great information.. I also made Marie’s more mango bar which is wonderful, just needs a couple more days to dry. She is such a great teacher and she also shares her recipes for everyone to use. I am still trying to wrap my brain around all the surfactants, silicones, vitamins and proteins you can use. I have a question for you, what is a liquid surfactant?? Cocoa betaine? Sorry new to this... I know dry ones are Sci, Slsa.. not too sure about liquid ones. Thanks Therese


----------



## Quanta

tnana1 said:


> I have a question for you, what is a liquid surfactant?? Cocoa betaine? Sorry new to this... I know dry ones are Sci, Slsa.. not too sure about liquid ones. Thanks Therese


I'm not amd, I hope she doesn't mind me answering.

Cocamidopropyl Betaine is more commonly used than Coco Betaine in skin care products. Some vendors will refer to Cocamidopropyl Betaine as Coco Betaine, but they aren't the same thing. Coco Betaine is the more natural form and so it is a little bit harsher on the skin than Cocamidopropyl Betaine, which has been processed a little more to make it gentler. This is a very common liquid surfactant used in shampoo bars and is abbreviated CAPB. I have also used Iselux Ultra Mild before, which is a blend of 5 different liquid surfactants including CAPB (Iselux Ultra Mild Concentrate).

If you have a subscription to swiftcraftymonkey, Susan has articles on both liquid and powdered surfactants.






						Creating a shampoo bar from scratch: Let’s meet the powdered surfactants – Point of Interest
					






					www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog
				









						Creating a shampoo bar from scratch: Let’s meet the liquid surfactants – Point of Interest
					






					www.swiftcraftymonkey.blog


----------



## tnana1

Quanta, opps sorry... but thank you for clearing that up. I am subscribed (just) I have a lot of reading to do... I was wondering what CAPB was, I’ve seen it a lot and did not know what it was, mystery solved thank you. Therese


----------



## amd

Following up on the testing of the More Mango with Modifications shampoo bar. Hubby is still using it in the shower and will not give it back until he gets a replacement. He has been very happy that his hair has become workable for styling now. I was a bit shocked when I was grilling him on his hair washing habits to discover that he never conditions his hair, and with this bar he still doesn't feel the need to. I moved down to the basement shower so that I could also continue using the bar (I suppose I could have cut the bar in half but that didn't occur to me until just now). I quite like it. The mild tangling I was experiencing has gone away now. Even leaving my hair unwashed for a day, the hair feels great, does not feel gunky, flat or gross. I've noticed less scalp irritation as I head into this week, so I suspect this is a gentler formula than the previous formulation I was testing. I weighed the bar last night, it was 95g (originally 100g, removed 5g for testing pH) when we started using it and is now 92g. So in 7 days and 11 total uses, it's losing approx 1/4g each use (probably less for hubby and more for me), this bar will last us quite awhile!

I did make a second batch on Saturday so that hubby would have his own bar. I scaled up a bit as I have a few people interested in trying them out for me, and I was curious to see how scaling up would work. It didn't. I scaled up to four 100g bars, and I could not get the same kind of consistency as before, it stayed somewhat dry. I used a significant amount of water (almost twice as much x4 of what I used to make the first bar, if that makes sense). I pressed them out anyways and when I went to set the first one on the cure rack, it crumbled to a pile of dust. Went back, double checked weights and it does not appear that I mismeasured any of the dry ingredients - based on my bowl weight, minus the bar that crumbled, and adding the other three bars back in, it was within 5g of what it should have been. I added twice as much water again, and repressed the bars. So far these are holding their shape, but I'm going to give them a full week cure. I'm a bit nervous of what may happen once that water evaporates out. If they make it off the cure rack, I will be giving them a good month long test before I even think of giving them to anyone else.

I am going to order some C14-16 as I think it might be cheaper than SLSa and compare those two. That ingredient swap may be part of the consistency problem. I think I will stick with Honeyquat though, as I can get that from the same supplier as my other ingredients.


----------



## tnana1

amd, I enjoy reading your posts... what is c14-16? I’ve made marie’s more mango shampoo bar, which I love. I just made her solid conditioner bar ( cocoa butter/coconut oil) can I use lanolin in a small amount in these container bars? Also can I replace some of the cocoa butter for capuacu butter. Sorry for all the questions, you are quite knowledgeable and I hope you don’t mind the questions. Thanks Therese


----------



## amd

tnana1 said:


> what is c14-16?


It's a powder surfactant - I think the most common is Bioterge, but it may go by other names (not quite sure on that). It's an ingredient I haven't tried yet but I have seen it in a few recipes, so I'm starting to look into it and figure it all out. Another member on this forum sent me a shampoo bar with C14-16 in the ingredient list and I didn't notice anything that I could pinpoint to the C14-16. That shampoo bar had quite a long list of ingredients if I remember correctly, but there was nothing about the shampoo bar performance that sticks in my memory as bad either.



tnana1 said:


> I just made her solid conditioner bar ( cocoa butter/coconut oil) can I use lanolin in a small amount in these container bars? Also can I replace some of the cocoa butter for capuacu butter.


I can't give any advice for conditioner bars, I haven't made them or even tried someone else's yet! Capuacu butter is super moisturizing right? If it's the butter I'm thinking of, then you probably can swap but maybe not 1:1 as it might make hair too heavy. If you reduce the amount of butter in it, how does that throw off the balance of the formula? I wouldn't put lanolin in a conditioner bar, but I think that's my own aversion to it after playing with it in beard balm for my husband.

And I really don't know that much, I think Kiwi, Violets and Gaisy could run circles around me for what I know. Mostly I like to play with other people's formulas, test the pH and then test it on my hair, lol. ETA: and then ask my chemist friends dumb questions.


----------



## Gaisy59

[QUOTE="amd, post: 886891, member: 19465"
And I really don't know that much, I think Kiwi, Violets and Gaisy could run circles around me for what I know. Mostly I like to play with other people's formulas, test the pH and then test it on my hair, lol. ETA: and then ask my chemist friends dumb questions.
[/QUOTE]
Yaaaa no, not moi lol. I read up on what i want in my bar and I followed KiwiMoose a LOT and had input from Dahila. So far really liking my bar and my bottom line is K.I.S.S.


----------



## tnana1

Hahaha, you ladies are too funny... I’m the beginner here, you all know so much more than me. Any help is so appreciated, thanks again


----------



## Gaisy59

tnana1 said:


> Hahaha, you ladies are too funny... I’m the beginner here, you all know so much more than me. Any help is so appreciated, thanks again


Ask and you will receive anytime


----------



## KiwiMoose

tnana1 said:


> Hahaha, you ladies are too funny... I’m the beginner here, you all know so much more than me. Any help is so appreciated, thanks again


Hiya - i think I put my trial recipe(s) very early in this thread.  Also, my liquid surfactant of choice is foaming apple, having made the decision NOT to include CAPB in my formulation.


----------



## amd

I got threads confused and was updating my More Mango with Modifications on another thread. From this thread post Curious about syndet recipe I found + free resource library
I played a bit with shampoo bars again this weekend. I made two versions of the HB&M More Mango (still subbing with SLSa). The first version I used horsetail butter and that went together beautifully. I think there may be a difference between using butters and liquid oils in the recipe because I tried the second one with walnut oil and I needed to add quite a bit more water again to get it to come together. The one with horsetail butter I left unscented as I wanted a customer who orders shampoo bars without fragrance to try the new recipe. The "old" recipe I was using had BTMS in it and stunk of fish quite a bit, so it might be more pleasant for her to use. The second one was for my hubby and the boys - they're going through the first bar I made a bit fast because both of the boys are using it head to toe. I also made a HB&M's Green French Clay bar French Green Clay Sulphate-Free Shampoo Bar - Humblebee & Me but had to sub Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside with CAPB, so I need to test the pH yet. It took a bit more water to get that to come together too. I wasn't sure about adding the carageenan as I've tried it before in a bar and it seemed to make it sticky for weeks. After an hour these weren't sticky so it might have been something else in the other bar that caused the stickiness. The last bar I made this weekend was HB&M's Rhassoul Clay bar Chocolate Rhassoul Shampoo Bars - Humblebee & Me which I've made before and quite like. I subbed 2% of the clay with activated charcoal, and melted the SCS quite a bit with the cocoa butter and stearic acid so that it was a more smooth moldable dough with only a few SCS noodles intact.

And here's today's update on those bars. The two I was particularly watching were the first and second bars. Here's what happened after 3 days of cure:



A reminder of my modifications: replaced C14-16 with SLSa, replaced Polyquaternium 7 with Honeyquat, experimenting with different oils/butters in place of mango butter.
Differences between the blue and white bars shown: White bar has no color or fragrance added and used horsetail butter blend in place of mango butter (ingredients: Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Almond) Oil (and) Equisetum arvense extract (and) Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil). I have a full pound on hand and have a customer whose hair loves it so I'm trying to use it up, but now that I understand butter blends better, I'm not sure this is a butter I would choose long term.
Blue bar has color and fragrance added (1/2 tsp mica, which was probably heavy handed for a 200g batch, and 1% FO), and used walnut oil in place of mango butter.

During making I noticed how smoothly the white bar went together, it really was moldable and I didn't need to add any extra water at all. The blue bar I had to add approx 40g water to get it to a moldable consistency where it would hold it's shape.

After 3 days curing, one of the blue bars had spontaneously broken apart, the second blue bar has spider web cracks consistently through the bar so I suspect that it will fail a drop test. The water evaporation from the blue bars is too much to keep the bars together.

Interestingly, the white bars are still perfectly smooth, no cracking. I gave one of the bars 5 drops onto the concrete floor and the bar remained intact.

Based on this, there is a difference in the recipe between using a hard oil/butter and a soft oil. I have several thoughts, the first being how much would I need to increase the soft oil to equal the results of a hard oil/butter and would there be impact to the shampoo performance? I don't feel like messing with this to find out, mostly because I have sal butter, mowrah butter, shea butter and cocoa butter, or even coconut oil if I want to do that route, on hand.

My next thought is that I need to try this again for the blue bar (it's a requested fragrance) with butter. So this weekend I will be remaking the blue bar using the SLSa and using a butter. This will be excellent timing as I have C14-16 now, so I can also make a bar using that with the same butter and compare the two bars equally.

My last thought is... what can I do with these two failed bars? My first thought is to grate them up and heat until melted enough to remold, but I'm wondering if melting would be enough to hold them or if I should add a bit of hard oil - and how much hard oil? Equal to the amount of water lost during evaporation? I do know how much water weight they lost as I took careful notes when I weighed out each bar during pressing. Water loss was one thing I was curious about. What would YOU do? 

Edited to correct a few grammar issues.


----------



## Hils67

Very interesting post, especially comparing using butters and oils.  I’ve tried a few HB&M recipes and like most of them, although they do work out quite expensive to recreate sometimes, so I often sub out some things for others.

I would have A go at melting the broken ones in the microwave.  I had a crumbly bar the other day...it just fell apart.  I microwaved on 10 sec bursts and when it was quite gooey I then stirred it well and stirred it a again a few times as it was cooling.  Got impatient and popped in fridge for 10 mins...by which time it was soft enough but not too soft to knead and then press in a hand mould...came out lovely.  Obviously only for personal use as the preservative most likely won’t still be effective as the mixture has been heated.

if you can’t be bothered, Chuck crumble into an organza bag and use in the shower.  That’s what we do with all our little bits...waste not want not


----------



## GemstonePony

@amd  My 2¢ without having seen your starting recipe:
Melt them down, add your choice of stearic acid, BTMS 50, or e-wax. A bit more slsa to compensate, maybe, to push the formula more towards your previous success.


----------



## amd

GemstonePony said:


> Melt them down, add your choice of stearic acid, BTMS 50, or e-wax.


I'm avoiding those additives in this recipe following the More Mango recipe.

Edited to respond to @Hils67 as I didn't see her post until after I replied to Gemstone (and editing function does not allow quotes).
The organza bag is a great idea, and usually what happens to bars that fail drop tests. Ours is a scrubby mesh bag, and my daughter and I find the lather from it to be perfect for shaving. I'd like to try to get the failed bars remolded if I could, but if they don't, the ingredients will definitely not go to waste!


----------



## Tara_H

I don't have experience in this, but if they can be melted by microwaving as @Hils67 suggests, would it work to gently microwave them in a silicone mould so that you don't then have to re-shape? Or is that a crazy idea?


----------



## GemstonePony

amd said:


> I'm avoiding those additives in this recipe following the More Mango recipe.


More bioterge-90 then, since that's the only anionic surfactant that I'm seeing in there, and I know from experience that SCI doesn't bind with oils (it's why we love it!). Mango or Shea butter might help thicken it as well, but you'll still want more of an anionic surfactant to help hold it all together. IME, liquid oils seem to require more surfactant to get them to bond to cationic surfactants than thicker ones, which is why my first though was to thicken the oil you already put in.


----------



## AliOop

I'd go with melting in the microwave along with some extra hard butter. Maybe add a titch of distilled water if the texture isn't smooth enough. I've erred on the side of too much water before, and ended up with bars that never really hardened, so definitely go very lightly on that if you do add it. Thanks for sharing the pics and your process!


----------



## Quilter99755

The last time I had some bars that crumbled, I just re-heated in the microwave, I think about 10-15 seconds at a time, stirring between; until it was very soupy and melted.It took a lot longer than I had expected.  After they were molded they were very hard.  I was using both powdered and noodles SCI, so I concluded that I just hadn't melted it together enough the first time around. But then I have not had the experience that you have had with syndet bars. I obviously have a lot more to learn.


----------



## AliOop

Quilter99755 said:


> The last time I had some bars that crumbled, I just re-heated in the microwave, I think about 10-15 seconds at a time, stirring between; until it was very soupy and melted.It took a lot longer than I had expected.  After they were molded they were very hard.  I was using both powdered and noodles SCI, so I concluded that I just hadn't melted it together enough the first time around. But then I have not had the experience that you have had with syndet bars. I obviously have a lot more to learn.


Thanks for sharing your experience! If I get a crumbly bar again, I'll try it your way first, with no additional additives.


----------



## Quilter99755

AliOop said:


> Thanks for sharing your experience! If I get a crumbly bar again, I'll try it your way first, with no additional additives.


I do hope it works for you. I am so new at the syndet bars, I figured it was beginners luck. I use an organza bag for slivers of soap and did that for the one bar I used. It totally broke into crumbles. I wasn't ready to use the other 4-5 bars that way and figured I had nothing to lose. I was surprised at how long it took to melt it enough to get soupy. But the re-done ones have dropped on the shower floor and didn't break. Good luck.


----------



## AliOop

Quilter99755 said:


> I do hope it works for you. I am so new at the syndet bars, I figured it was beginners luck. I use an organza bag for slivers of soap and did that for the one bar I used. It totally broke into crumbles. I wasn't ready to use the other 4-5 bars that way and figured I had nothing to lose. I was surprised at how long it took to melt it enough to get soupy. But the re-done ones have dropped on the shower floor and didn't break. Good luck.


Thanks, I always appreciate hearing how others fare; it goes into the mental databank for "what to do if X happens."   I've only had one random crumbly bar at the beginning; after that, the rest have turned out great. I've started using my mooncake press for more uniformity, with fewer crevices and uneven spots - much nicer than anything I can get from hand-pressing it into silicone molds. @violets2217  recommended putting some plastic wrap on the inside of the press to keep the bars from sticking. That was great advice, and I'm especially happy with this last batch. In the photo below, the shampoo bars are the round ones; the hearts are conditioner bars.


----------



## Quilter99755

AliOop said:


> Thanks, I always appreciate hearing how others fare; it goes into the mental databank for "what to do if X happens."   I've only had one random crumbly bar at the beginning; after that, the rest have turned out great. I've started using my mooncake press for more uniformity, with fewer crevices and uneven spots - much nicer than anything I can get from hand-pressing it into silicone molds. @violets2217  recommended putting some plastic wrap on the inside of the press to keep the bars from sticking. That was great advice, and I'm especially happy with this last batch. In the photo below, the shampoo bars are the round ones; the hearts are conditioner bars.


I tried with the mooncake press, but didn't put the plastic wrap on the inside. It was a mess. I think the recipe I tried it on was way too dry anyway. Whenever I get around to making another batch I'll try that again. Somehow if I read the tip of plastic wrap it didn't stick in my memory! LOL This last time I used one of the hard plastic molds and with popping them in the freezer for about ten minutes, they came out perfectly!


----------



## amd

Tara_H said:


> would it work to gently microwave them in a silicone mould so that you don't then have to re-shape? Or is that a crazy idea?


Not crazy, maybe just not thought through all the way. Consider that microwaves heat from the inside out, so you would have uneven melting rather than uniform melting. You would need to stop and stir through several times to get it uniform, in which case don't bother with melting in the mold.

I decided to try crumbling the bar and melting. I also did a weight calculation to volume, even thought I don't have mango butter I do have shea butter which has a "close enough for me" density to mango butter, so I melted the shea butter to see the volume and compared that to equal weight of the walnut oil that I used, and added enough weight to the walnut oil to equal the volume measurement of the shea butter. I'm not sure that really made sense, but as it did seem between my two experiments that the one with butter mixed more correctly than the liquid oil, that being short the liquid oil as a binding ingredient was more the problem. Water does not seem to be enough of a binding ingredient once it evaporates off as those bars spontaneously broke. So for the bars that I made I was short approximately 6g of liquid oil by weight to equal the same volume. This probably isn't a good/preferred formulating technique, and more sciency people than me will probably debunk it... but that's what I did!

The bars crumbled extremely easy with my fingers, so that wasn't the mess I was anticipating. I added the additional 6g of walnut oil, and then zapped it in the microwave for two 30 second increments. I probably should have done one 30 and one 15 and that would have been plenty. It melted very nicely together. I probably could have skipped the additional liquid oil I think, or perhaps should have waited to see how it melted out. Would have saved me a bit of time if I had thought of it. I did need to let the mixture cool, it was extremely moldable (and fun to play with) but had a tendency to ooze out of its shape. I had a bit of fun playing with it while it was cooling  It molded very nicely, the first bar I did molded very smoothly. The second bar has a bit more texture and lines as I did scrape the drier harder bits out of the melting bowl into the press mold before shaping it.

So what I learned from all this is that for the More Mango recipe, it is probably better to apply heat to get it to a moldable consistency rather than adding water. I don't think one would need to melt fully in that case, just enough to give the mixture a bit more "sticky together". I don't think I would worry then about adjusting the oil quantity at all. I should note that I did not add more fragrance or preservative to my remolded bars - even though I probably did kill off the preservative. They still smell great! These will be going to the boys shower and at the rate they've gone through the other shampoo bar, I don't think they'll have time to grow any nasties. If these were going elsewhere, I would have added more preservative once the mixture had cooled.



So far all of my testers have come back with positive reviews of this formula (minus the comments regarding breakage and crumbling, which I think this experiment has resolved), so once I confirm with this round of bars that I have figured out the source of the mixing/crumbling issues and the correct fix, and compare to the C14-16 bars (which I haven't made yet, our second son graduated from high school over the weekend so I did not have as much "play time" as I would have liked)... I think the "more mango" bar is going to be a winner for me.


----------



## Quanta

I always heat my bars. I tried it at room temperature only in the very beginning and it was a disaster. I think my ratio of dry to wet ingredients was also off quite a bit back then as well, and my recipe and process have changed significantly since then. I find it is much easier to heat everything so that is the only way I do it now.


----------



## amd

Quanta said:


> I always heat my bars.


That's the way I've always done it (well... the 3 years I've been playing with shampoo bars) as well. I think that's what intrigued me the most about the More Mango recipe was that it was moldable without heat. For a soapmaker, I really have very little patience, so the fiddly bits of heating through and then waiting to cool to add preservative can leave me a bit frustrated. I have a good laugh at myself for my impatience at silly things like this quite often.


----------



## Quanta

amd said:


> That's the way I've always done it (well... the 3 years I've been playing with shampoo bars) as well. I think that's what intrigued me the most about the More Mango recipe was that it was moldable without heat. For a soapmaker, I really have very little patience, so the fiddly bits of heating through and then waiting to cool to add preservative can leave me a bit frustrated. I have a good laugh at myself for my impatience at silly things like this quite often.


The More Mango recipe was specifically designed without BTMS and Cetyl Alcohol, so it makes sense that it's at least moldable when at room temperature. Those ingredients are what made mine need to be at least warm when adding the melted ingredients. At first I tried adding the melted stuff to room temperature surfactants and it... did not work. At all. But I would imagine that even a recipe without them would still bind together better if it was heated.


----------



## violets2217

The last two times I’ve played around with my shampoo bars I heated them up until they are soupy... in a strong double layered ziplock bags. Then when they cooled down enough kneaded in the preservative and FO. It’s kinda fun.. and not so messy! I’ve never had to add water to any of my bars but I’ve also always either used cocoa butter or kokum butter. And they’ve been hard as a rock.I’ve never replace with a liquid oil though.. Shampoo Bars are so high maintenance sometimes!


----------



## amd

I made the More Mango with C14-16 and the horsetail butter blend last night. I held back the preservative, at .5% I didn't think it would affect the binding, so I felt safe leaving it out until I knew if I would need to add heat or not. I did microwave for 15 seconds, and it came together wonderfully, so I added the preservative and gave it a good kneading through. They're drying now, but it will be a few weeks before hubby tests them. He snagged the French Green Clay bar I made the previous week and is liking that one too, especially on his face. 

I've been using the bentonite clay & charcoal bar on my face (HBM's rhassoul clay bar using bentonite and charcoal instead) and I like that quite a bit for that. I don't like it for my hair though, it pulled my color out (good thing I was getting it recolored on Friday anyways), so I'm glad I found an alternate use for it.


----------



## violets2217

So my daughter is the main reason I started making shampoo and conditioner bars…  her hair was always so frizzy and dull. One of the things I like about the shampoo bars is how easily it rinses out no matter how sudsy they are. A problem she had with store bought shampoo which contributed to her hair’s dullness. So this is what I saw today… just outta bed…still a bit frizzy but some curl definition. She needs a trim… but her hair is growing in so healthy and shiny. Not so much shedding and breakage. So, I’m thinking my obsession was worth it!!!




I sadly have no before pictures because I had to sneak this one when I made her open a Amazon delivery for me today..


----------



## amd

Wow! She has a lot of hair! Good job, Mom, putting obsession to work!


----------



## Janewoc17

Wait! cocamidopropyl betaine is an known eczema irritant? I finally bought the ingredients for a syndet shampoo bar based on Humblebee and Me More Mango, but I didn’t get the memo about cocamidopropyl betaine. My eczema has been fairly miserable without using anything. Syndet shampoo bars are sooooooo complicated!



KiwiMoose said:


> Here's my current recipe that's being tested by myself and friends.  Please feel free to comment on ingredients because I am totally shooting in the dark here.  I would be interested to know if you have any suggestions for improvement.  I have made the decision to NOT use cocamidopropyl betaine due to the likelihood of it being a known irritant to eczema sufferers.  And that's quite a major ingredient to work around.
> This recipe is a pourable one, not a pressed one.


----------



## AliOop

@Janewoc17 it can be an irritant for some eczema sufferers, but not for all. One of my good friends who does not have eczema has a pretty severe allergic reaction to CapB.  But my husband tolerates it very well, despite having both eczema and psoriasis. He honestly has more trouble with sulfates and fragrances. 

So if you have already ordered it, I'd give it a try and see. If you don't like it, it should be pretty easy to destash, either here on SMF or on FB.


----------



## Janewoc17

Hi AliOop, I did some reading about CapB and decided it might be ok. I will give it a try since I think I have developed a reaction to the shampoo and conditioner that I have been using for 12 years.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Janewoc17 said:


> Hi AliOop, I did some reading about CapB and decided it might be ok. I will give it a try since I think I have developed a reaction to the shampoo and conditioner that I have been using for 12 years.


Have a wee look at those ingredients to see what the differences are between that and yours Jane.  It's probably SLS.


----------



## Janewoc17

I’ve been avoiding SLS for over 20 years from when I found out it was lurking in my toothpaste causing many years of oral problems. That was one of the reasons I started using Deva products. I’m wondering if they may have tweaked their formula in some subtle way that just does not work for me. The More Mango has fewer ingredients with CapB and POLYQUATERNIUM-7, being the only two overlaps.


----------



## violets2217

Janewoc17 said:


> The More Mango has fewer ingredients with CapB and POLYQUATERNIUM-7, being the only two overlaps.


My recipe uses honeyquat instead of the POLYQUATERNIUM-7 in my shampoo and conditioner bars...

polyquaternium-7


----------



## amd

violets2217 said:


> My recipe uses honeyquat instead of the POLYQUATERNIUM-7


Mine too... mostly because I had honeyquat on hand and didn't want to order more ingredients 

One note about CAPB, I think the irritation factor is when CAPB is used alone. In combination with other surfactants it becomes milder and less likely to cause irritations than on its own. I use CAPB in all of my shampoo bar versions and my mom loves them - she has extreme psoriasis on her scalp - and the shampoo bars help reduce irritation from washing and get her hair clean. I'm taking her a bar each of the Modified More Mango and the French Green Clay to see how she does with those. Kind of hoping that the clay bar will lend some healing properties, but well, it's shampoo not a miracle. We're happy if she's just able to wash her hair.


----------



## AliOop

Janewoc17 said:


> I’ve been avoiding SLS for over 20 years from when I found out it was lurking in my toothpaste causing many years of oral problems. That was one of the reasons I started using Deva products. I’m wondering if they may have tweaked their formula in some subtle way that just does not work for me. The More Mango has fewer ingredients with CapB and POLYQUATERNIUM-7, being the only two overlaps.


There are huge threads on multiple sites with people complaining that DevaCurl absolutely ruined their hair. Apparently there have been several large class action suits. Here is one thread you can read. You can also look up Ayesha Malik on YT to read all about her issues with DevaCurl. The pictures of changes to her hair are horrifying. It's hard to say whether they are lying, or whether they had a manufacturing issue in certain batches, or whether contraband products found their way into the mainstream market. Whatever it is, you are not alone in developing a problem with DevaCurl.


----------



## Janewoc17

Righto. Made my first *failed* syndet shampoo bar! Turns out that when I searched for Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate (a solid) I turned up Alpha Olefin Sulfonate (a liquid) so I purchased that which of course did not work and it only took me a couple of hours to figure out why my bar is still mouchy hours later. It's so obvious when you know. I've looked at four sites so far and can't find the BioTerge. Amazon carries a different brand, but in a one pound size. Is there a way to save my shampoo or do I need to toss it? I could put it in a jar and scoop it? Any suggestions where to purchase Bioterge? I'll try the French Clay Shampoo bar next.


----------



## AliOop

Janewoc17 said:


> Righto. Made my first *failed* syndet shampoo bar! Turns out that when I searched for Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate (a solid) I turned up Alpha Olefin Sulfonate (a liquid) so I purchased that which of course did not work and it only took me a couple of hours to figure out why my bar is still mouchy hours later. It's so obvious when you know. I've looked at four sites so far and can't find the BioTerge. Amazon carries a different brand, but in a one pound size. Is there a way to save my shampoo or do I need to toss it? I could put it in a jar and scoop it? Any suggestions where to purchase Bioterge? I'll try the French Clay Shampoo bar next.


I purchased BioTerge/C14-16 from Voyageur Soap and Candle. However, you can definitely use SCI powder instead if that is easier for you to source. That's what I did after I found out that BioTerge is better for oiler skin/hair, and I have very dry hair.

As for saving the existing bar, I'd recommend that you try remelting it and adding in some clay or starch to firm it up. However, you need to watch your pH to be sure it stays in the appropriate range. Also, if your product gets warm enough to kill the preservative (assuming you used one) you may need to add more of that, as well.


----------



## Janewoc17

Oh! The recipe calls for 15g Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate and 22.5 g SCI. So I could try again with all SCI? I did add a fair amount of arrowroot per her suggestion in the recipe, but it is really not even firm. I did use Germall Plus but want to be careful not to mess with pH and germicides. All SCI seems like a better choice if that is better for dry hair. Voyager does carry Bioterge, but dry hair.


----------



## AliOop

Sorry, I didn't realize your recipe already had SCI in it.  SCI has a max usage limit of something around 50 to 60%, plus you also have to watch out for pH when subbing ingredients.

I just looked at BioTerge in HumbleBee's encyclopedia. She lists SLSa as a good sub. I had forgotten about that since that's exactly what I ended up using was SLSa instead of the BioTerge. The recipes came out just fine with that sub, too.

SLSa is a lot more readily available than BioTerge, and supposedly isn't as drying. I think WSP carries it under the trade name of Lathanol, but you can get regular old SLSa from most soaping suppliers, EBay, etc. HTH!


----------



## Janewoc17

Oops. I did all SCI. That puts my recipe at 75% SCI. I did read that an option for substitution is SLSa, but didn't do that. Toss it, I guess and try again. Third time and charms.


----------



## AliOop

Janewoc17 said:


> Oops. I did all SCI. That puts my recipe at 75% SCI. I did read that an option for substitution is SLSa, but didn't do that. Toss it, I guess and try again. Third time and charms.


Actually, I have, use, and love a recipe from DIY Bath & Body that is 73% SCI. As I understand it, since the SCI we purchase is actually not 100% SCI, that works out to be much closer to 60 or 62% total SCI in the recipe, if I recall correctly. 

But even if you don't feel comfortable using it on your hair, you can still use it for hand and body washing. I've done that with a few shampoo bars that I wasn't crazy about.


----------



## violets2217

AliOop said:


> Actually, I have, use, and love a recipe from DIY Bath & Body that is 73% SCI.


@Janewoc17  - Same recipe I use and love as well!  This recipe has quite a following among my friends and family that I share by shampoo & conditioner bars with.


----------



## Janewoc17

violets2217 said:


> @Janewoc17  - Same recipe I use and love as well!  This recipe has quite a following among my friends and family that I share by shampoo & conditioner bars with.


Thank you AliOop and violets2217! I’m going to try using SCI shampoo bar today. 
And… there. Purchased the DIY Bath and Body recipes for shampoo and conditioner. 
Learning all these chemicals is certainly challenging my old brain! I’ll be getting a lot more careful when I’m buying ingredients since one letter or word makes an entirely different product… of course. 

This feels like learning to cook by only having descriptions of the ingredients… for biscuits you take some sodium chloride (not potassium chloride) some sodium bicarbonate (not sodium carbonate!), wheat berries, ground but only after they are dried and not wheatgrass, cow milk or goat milk or soy milk…which is actually soy juice…


----------



## Janewoc17

AliOop said:


> There are huge threads on multiple sites with people complaining that DevaCurl absolutely ruined their hair. Apparently there have been several large class action suits. Here is one thread you can read. You can also look up Ayesha Malik on YT to read all about her issues with DevaCurl. The pictures of changes to her hair are horrifying. It's hard to say whether they are lying, or whether they had a manufacturing issue in certain batches, or whether contraband products found their way into the mainstream market. Whatever it is, you are not alone in developing a problem with DevaCurl.



OH! I had forgotten about this issue with DevaCurl! Thank you for bringing it back to my attention. This may well be the cause of my crazy dermatitis reaction three years ago that has been plaguing me ever since.


----------



## Janewoc17

Janewoc17 said:


> Thank you AliOop and violets2217! I’m going to try using SCI shampoo bar today.
> And… there. Purchased the DIY Bath and Body recipes for shampoo and conditioner.
> Learning all these chemicals is certainly challenging my old brain! I’ll be getting a lot more careful when I’m buying ingredients since one letter or word makes an entirely different product… of course.
> 
> This feels like learning to cook by only having descriptions of the ingredients… for biscuits you take some sodium chloride (not potassium chloride) some sodium bicarbonate (not sodium carbonate!), wheat berries, ground but only after they are dried and not wheatgrass, cow milk or goat milk or soy milk…which is actually soy juice…


Hello Ladies,
I used the SCI heavy shampoo (More Mango, sort of) bar with AliOop's hair conditioner bar this morning. My hair is curly and shiny and hasn't fallen out nor have I erupted in acute dermatitis! WooHoo! The fragrance is nearly undetectable but good lather. I haven't had squeaky clean hair in over a decade! 
I bought the DIY Bath and Body Shampoo booklet and have everything I need to make it...except that I have SCI powder not noodles. Is that interchangeable? Probably not. After checking six web stores, I found some at Windy Point, nowhere in the US. What's up. Frogs! This is complicated!!


----------



## Quanta

Janewoc17 said:


> Hello Ladies,
> I used the SCI heavy shampoo (More Mango, sort of) bar with AliOop's hair conditioner bar this morning. My hair is curly and shiny and hasn't fallen out nor have I erupted in acute dermatitis! WooHoo! The fragrance is nearly undetectable but good lather. I haven't had squeaky clean hair in over a decade!
> I bought the DIY Bath and Body Shampoo booklet and have everything I need to make it...except that I have SCI powder not noodles. Is that interchangeable? Probably not. After checking six web stores, I found some at Windy Point, nowhere in the US. What's up. Frogs! This is complicated!!


I have not had much success with the noodles. Powder is easier to use. In my experience, if you use a process that isn't heated and leave the noodles whole, they tend to fall out of the bar during use. SCI noodles are not very water soluble so they dissolve more slowly than the surrounding mixture, so they stick out and eventually fall out before really doing much.

One bar I made with only noodles, I made using the microwave method. I did eventually get it to melt enough to at least partially incorporate the noodles into the rest of the mix, but it was a pain. When I use powder only, I use a beaker in a hot water bath on the stovetop. The noodles just weren't melting that way, even with the water boiling, so I popped it in the microwave. It took forever because it cooled too quickly between bursts to be able to stir it well. I had to keep putting it back in the microwave. It might be easier if I made a bigger batch (it won't cool as quickly when I take it out to stir). The test bar I made was a full size bar (100g recipe) and my husband has been using it as shampoo and body wash. He is down to the last little bit and it never got mushy, which is probably due to the increased stearic acid content (added stearic acid is what holds the noodles' shape). So I will probably still keep using powder and just up the stearic acid a bit. That will be easier than microwaving it to death.

The next bar I made with noodles, I substituted a small amount of powered SCI with noodles I powdered in a mortar and pestle. I haven't finished using that bar yet but it seems to be working well.


----------



## Janewoc17

Quanta said:


> I have not had much success with the noodles. Powder is easier to use. In my experience, if you use a process that isn't heated and leave the noodles whole, they tend to fall out of the bar during use. SCI noodles are not very water soluble so they dissolve more slowly than the surrounding mixture, so they stick out and eventually fall out before really doing much.
> 
> One bar I made with only noodles, I made using the microwave method. I did eventually get it to melt enough to at least partially incorporate the noodles into the rest of the mix, but it was a pain. When I use powder only, I use a beaker in a hot water bath on the stovetop. The noodles just weren't melting that way, even with the water boiling, so I popped it in the microwave. It took forever because it cooled too quickly between bursts to be able to stir it well. I had to keep putting it back in the microwave. It might be easier if I made a bigger batch (it won't cool as quickly when I take it out to stir). The test bar I made was a full size bar (100g recipe) and my husband has been using it as shampoo and body wash. He is down to the last little bit and it never got mushy, which is probably due to the increased stearic acid content (added stearic acid is what holds the noodles' shape). So I will probably still keep using powder and just up the stearic acid a bit. That will be easier than microwaving it to death.
> 
> The next bar I made with noodles, I substituted a small amount of powered SCI with noodles I powdered in a mortar and pestle. I haven't finished using that bar yet but it seems to be working well.


Thank you for sharing your experience with noodles! I’ll go ahead and try working with the powder. So glad I didn’t order them.


----------



## KiwiMoose

@Janewoc17 - I'm not a fan of the noodles either.  They don't melt as @Quanta has said, and the bars i make with the powder are more robust.  However, I don't press mine, I pour them.  I do sometimes order the noodles though, because they are significantly cheaper than the powder.  I then grind them up into powder in my blender ( wear a mask!!).


----------



## violets2217

Janewoc17 said:


> except that I have SCI powder not noodles


The recipe comes with one for powder and one for noodle in the booklet, at least mine did. So you should be good to go. I personally combined the two recipes and called it my hybrid shampoo bar! lol! I like the look of the noodles in my bars and they press better for me. I just melt everything together as the recipes says and mix well! I leave my stand mixer going for a long while! They still work just the same for me.


----------



## amd

Janewoc17 said:


> I've looked at four sites so far and can't find the BioTerge.





Janewoc17 said:


> The recipe calls for 15g Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate and 22.5 g SCI. So I could try again with all SCI?


I couldn't find C14-16 either. I bought some from Alioop who was destashing her inventory. I used SLSa as a sub in the More Mango recipe, and pH was in the 5 range. It's become my favorite shampoo bar. Compared it to the bar that I made with the C14-16, and I didn't notice a difference between the two. 

As for the DIY recipe, their formula uses SCI at an unsafe rate. The creators' reasoning for the high usage is not sound, per two chemist friends (one of which is a cosmetic formulator). The water during use does not negate the safe usage rate of the shampoo bar. Even in concentrated forms, products need to follow safe usage rates.


----------



## Janewoc17

amd said:


> I couldn't find C14-16 either. I bought some from Alioop who was destashing her inventory. I used SLSa as a sub in the More Mango recipe, and pH was in the 5 range. It's become my favorite shampoo bar. Compared it to the bar that I made with the C14-16, and I didn't notice a difference between the two.
> 
> As for the DIY recipe, their formula uses SCI at an unsafe rate. The creators' reasoning for the high usage is not sound, per two chemist friends (one of which is a cosmetic formulator). The water during use does not negate the safe usage rate of the shampoo bar. Even in concentrated forms, products need to follow safe usage rates.


I’m going to give that version a try. My hair is a bit on the too dry side after using the too much SCI recipe.

Once again and not enough: thank you one and all for advice and support!


----------



## Janewoc17

amd said:


> I couldn't find C14-16 either. I bought some from Alioop who was destashing her inventory. I used SLSa as a sub in the More Mango recipe, and pH was in the 5 range. It's become my favorite shampoo bar. Compared it to the bar that I made with the C14-16, and I didn't notice a difference between the two.
> 
> As for the DIY recipe, their formula uses SCI at an unsafe rate. The creators' reasoning for the high usage is not sound, per two chemist friends (one of which is a cosmetic formulator). The water during use does not negate the safe usage rate of the shampoo bar. Even in concentrated forms, products need to follow safe usage rates.


Well, fiddlesticks! How is an ordinary person supposed to figure this stuff out? Sure grateful for SMF!


----------



## Quanta

Janewoc17 said:


> I’m going to give that version a try. My hair is a bit on the too dry side after using the too much SCI recipe.
> 
> Once again and not enough: thank you one and all for advice and support!


Are you using conditioner?


----------



## Janewoc17

Yes indeed! I used AliOop's basic conditioner bar and then my own jojoba leave in serum. Curly hair in the desert! Some days I just want to take a bath in olive oil--cold olive oil.


----------



## Janewoc17

Janewoc17 said:


> Well, fiddlesticks! How is an ordinary person supposed to figure this stuff out? Sure grateful for SMF!


As I think a bit more, what happens at the higher rate? Not that I want to be unsafe, more that I am still learning about each ingredient. And I thought lye soap was scary! I'm nearly ready to go back to lye based shampoo bars, rinse with vinegar water and let me hair deal with it. Who needs picture perfect hair? But now that I have invest over $100 in ingredients, I feel obligated to keep at trying to get a bar of shampoo that works for me.


----------



## amd

Janewoc17 said:


> As I think a bit more, what happens at the higher rate?


Skin irritation. Which is why I had my chemist friends look at the DIY formula. It won't kill you using I higher usage rate, it's just not skin friendly at higher usage rates.


----------



## violets2217

amd said:


> Skin irritation. Which is why I had my chemist friends look at the DIY formula. It won't kill you using I higher usage rate, it's just not skin friendly at higher usage rates.


Which is weird for me, because when we first had this discussion a while back... It wasn't the SCI that irritated my scalp it was the increase of the SLSa, when I lowered the SCI, that irritated my scalp. Its been a big balancing act and rabbit hole to research, especially when the original recipe got rid of my itchy flaky scalp and made my hair so shiny and bouncy with practically no frizz.


----------



## amd

Different surfactants will irritate the skin differently for different people. Some people can't do higher amounts of SCI or they might be ok with higher amounts of SLSa. I was having a lot of irritation after using the DIY bar for almost a year. The repeated exposure to high SCI was my issue, I believe, as after I changed bar recipes (and then continued the pursuit of one that was easy to make and improved performance) my scalp was no longer irritated. Although it did take awhile before it returned to normal after changing the bar recipe.

You're absolutely right, it is a balancing act of getting the right surfactant blends - and what works for one person may not work for all. That's why the hair care industry is so huge.

I'm sure there are other factors involved in determining safe usage rates, skin irritation was just the most readily noticeable for me with the DIY formula.


----------



## Janewoc17

amd said:


> Skin irritation. Which is why I had my chemist friends look at the DIY formula. It won't kill you using I higher usage rate, it's just not skin friendly at higher usage rates.


Which is exactly what I’m trying to avoid by making my own shampoo. I WILL get this!!!


----------



## AliOop

Janewoc17 said:


> Which is exactly what I’m trying to avoid by making my own shampoo. I WILL get this!!!


Yes, you will! And in the end, what works for you is what works for you. I'm normally super sensitive to everything, but have no trouble with the high SCI formula at all - doesn't dry me out or make me itch at all. But knowing that it exceeds recommended amounts means that I wouldn't sell it to anyone, that's for sure.


----------



## Louis mercy

violets2217 said:


> I highly recommend that Esty shop! every recipe that I've gotten from them has been the best ever!!! And I've bought 6 recipes from that shop so far.


Hey @violets2217 
 your post is very much appreciated.
I'm new to soap making but Would love to make syndet bars as they have no lye in them.
Mind sharing one or a few timeless recipes.
Many Blessings


----------



## Janewoc17

AliOop said:


> Yes, you will! And in the end, what works for you is what works for you. I'm normally super sensitive to everything, but have no trouble with the high SCI formula at all - doesn't dry me out or make me itch at all. But knowing that it exceeds recommended amounts means that I wouldn't sell it to anyone, that's for sure.


A few weeks in and my hair is doing well with shampoo and conditioner bars recipes from DIY BATH AND BODY. My hair is still on the dry side, but that might be because the humidity here is running around 20%. I’m going to try the hot pour shampoo next time. Sandra and Angie were very helpful with my questions. Thank you @AliOop and @violets2217 for your support and suggestions! I now have bars in time for my trip to WA on Wednesday where the rain will turn my hair into perfect curls. I never have to travel with bottles of shampoo and conditioner again!

One funny thing: part of my reason to make the bars was to reduce plastic waste from those bottles…I now have a big box filled with ingredients in plastic pouches, jars and bottles.


----------



## Janewoc17

Louis mercy said:


> Hey @violets2217
> your post is very much appreciated.
> I'm new to soap making but Would love to make syndet bars as they have no lye in them.
> Mind sharing one or a few timeless recipes.
> Many Blessings


The recipe you need will depend upon the type of hair you have and what goals you have for making your own bars. I researched the topic for close to six months before making my first bars. Humblebee & Me - Humblebee & Me has some excellent recipes if you your hair is mostly straight. Curly hair needs different care with the recipes from the Etsy shop mentioned working well for me.


----------



## AliOop

Janewoc17 said:


> One funny thing: part of my reason to make the bars was to reduce plastic waste from those bottles…I now have a big box filled with ingredients in plastic pouches, jars and bottles.


Yes, the irony of that wasn't lost on me, either! But the reality is that it is still far less plastic than what I would use if I were to buy the equivalent number of washes from bottles of liquid shampoos and conditioners. And it is sooooo nice not to bring liquids when traveling by air! 

Also, with my very dry hair that can get quite frizzy, I do have to add additional moisture besides the conditioner bars. But that's always been true for me. I usually put a little argan, jojoba, or meadowfoam seed oil on my fingertips, and lightly brush them over the surface of my hair. It's enough to tame the frizz without weighing it down (or giving me allergic reactions like I get from most hair products).


----------



## violets2217

Louis mercy said:


> Hey @violets2217
> your post is very much appreciated.
> I'm new to soap making but Would love to make syndet bars as they have no lye in them.
> Mind sharing one or a few timeless recipes.
> Many Blessings


So the recipe I use it one that I bought from the Esty shop:
DIYbathandbodyshop | Etsy
Not sure if the link will work, but it’s the DIYbathandbodyshop on Etsy and the shampoo bars are good. Also there was much talk about the recipe from the website @Janewoc17 linked above in other shampoo bar posts on this forum.
More Mango Shampoo Bar is one of the recipes that was discussed.

Good luck!


----------



## Janewoc17

AliOop said:


> Yes, the irony of that wasn't lost on me, either! But the reality is that it is still far less plastic than what I would use if I were to buy the equivalent number of washes from bottles of liquid shampoos and conditioners. And it is sooooo nice not to bring liquids when traveling by air!
> 
> Also, with my very dry hair that can get quite frizzy, I do have to add additional moisture besides the conditioner bars. But that's always been true for me. I usually put a little argan, jojoba, or meadowfoam seed oil on my fingertips, and lightly brush them over the surface of my hair. It's enough to tame the frizz without weighing it down (or giving me allergic reactions like I get from most hair products).



Ah...dry hair. I usually use a serum with Jojoba, Argan, and vetiver. I think I will add meadow foam seed oil to my next batch. Then switch I it up with the kokum butter hair recipe @violets2217 linked earlier in this thread. I often glob in some oils/butter and then braid it. My hair doesn't usually frizz, it just goes limp and sad when it is too dry. Yay braids!


----------

