# Lotion bar recipe question



## Angie Gail (Jan 5, 2021)

I'm going to try making lotion bars and I found this recipe at WSP. I want to substitute the hemp seed butter for cocoa butter. I haven't worked with either butter (and haven't made any lotion bars before) and was wondering if I can do an even substitution? 
Thanks!

• 8 oz. Beeswax - Yellow Pastilles
• 4 oz. Coconut Oil - 76º Melt
• 4 oz. Hemp Seed Oil - Virgin (Dark Green)
• 2 oz. Jojoba Oil - Clear
• 2 oz. Hemp Seed Butter Blend
• 1 Tablespoon(s) Goat Milk Powder
• 0.15 oz. Vitamin E Natural T-50


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## privatekane (Jan 5, 2021)

I can only guess as I have not used Hemp seed butter...that cocoa butter is harder and has a higher melting point. It would probably still work. There are many lotion bars on pinterest that have cocoa butter in them and you would not have to guess amounts.


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## privatekane (Jan 5, 2021)

I found this...
*Solid Lotion Bars*
The luxurious butters add special attention to winter dry & itchy skin!

*Ingredients*
• 14 grams beeswax (15 %)
• 24 grams avocado oil (26 %)
• 12 grams fractionated coconut oil (14 %)
• 21 grams shea butter (23%)
• 23 grams cocoa butter (21%)
• 1 gram *vitamin E oil (*0.10%)
• 0.9 gram scent (1 %)

*Equipment*
• Double boiler
• Scale
• Stir stick
• Push up deodorant type containers


*Formulating*
1. Melt all but the Vit E and scent in a double boiler on low, medium heat until melted.  Do not overheat as it will degrade the ingredients. Remove from the heat.
2. Add vitamin E oil, and scent stir and pour into containers.
3. Put into the fridge for 1 hour or more to avoid shea butter crystallization. (grainy)
NOTE:  If you find the final product is too hard, add more soft oil, it it is too soft decrease the soft oils.  Your climate contributes to how stiff the formula is.
This formula can be altered to accommodate a more simple perfume bar by changing around the butters for something like solid coconut oil.  We all learn by trying.  The % enable you to shrink down the formula to sample sizes for your R&D.
Yields approx 6 x 15 gram containers. You can also pour into small molds to avoid packaging.  
If you do not have the above carrier oils or butters, here are alternatives.  sweet almond, grapeseed, camellia, grapeseed, meadowfoam, hemp, camellia or olive.


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## Angie Gail (Jan 5, 2021)

Thanks! I'll try a small batch first and do an even substitution and see how that works.


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## Mobjack Bay (Jan 5, 2021)

Hemp seed butter is hemp seed oil mixed with vegetable shortening.  It likely has the consistency of Crisco, so yes, it will be a lot softer than cocoa butter.


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## shunt2011 (Jan 5, 2021)

Cocoa butter is harder. I would use less.


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## Zing (Jan 5, 2021)

@Angie Gail I'm an evangelist for making lotion bars and have tried many recipes.  The super cool thing is that experimenting is so easy and the results are nearly instantaneous -- unlike making soap!  I've made a batch of lotion bars, wanted it "harder" so re-melted and added more beeswax, and vice-versa wanting it softer and adding more oil.

My basic recipe is 1/3 each of beeswax, shea or cocoa butter, coconut oil, scented with an essential oil at 1% of oil weight (or check on eocalc.com).  From that theme are many variations.  For example, in place of coconut oil I've subbed any combination of sweet almond oil, jojoba oil, meadowfoam seed oil, etc.  

Have fun with it and keep us posted!


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## Dawni (Jan 5, 2021)

Your final recipe will also have to factor in the climate where you live.. If it's generally hotter where you are you might have to increase your beeswax and/or hard butter from the general 1:1:1 wax/butter/oil consensus. If it's a humid place, you'll do better with less greasy ingredients too. 

Mine, here in the Philippines, use butter, wax, oil in decreasing amounts. Just a thought 

Even subs are usually for things with similar melting points. Sub for cocoa will be another brittle butter like maybe kokum. Subbing a rice bran wax for beeswax will require less of the rice bran for example. 

Let us know how this recipe goes.. I'm wondering how the goat milk powder will feel on the skin.


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## Angie Gail (Jan 6, 2021)

Thanks everybody! I'm in Texas where it's hot and humid so I may play around with the recipe then until I get it just right.


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## Angie Gail (Jan 6, 2021)

What do y'all think of this recipe for a hot, humid climate? 
25% beeswax
20% hemp seed oil
20% jojoba oil
19% coconut oil (76 degree)
15% cocoa butter
1% vitamin E


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## Gaisy59 (Jan 6, 2021)

Zing said:


> @Angie Gail I'm an evangelist for making lotion bars and have tried many recipes.  The super cool thing is that experimenting is so easy and the results are nearly instantaneous -- unlike making soap!  I've made a batch of lotion bars, wanted it "harder" so re-melted and added more beeswax, and vice-versa wanting it softer and adding more oil.
> 
> My basic recipe is 1/3 each of beeswax, shea or cocoa butter, coconut oil, scented with an essential oil at 1% of oil weight (or check on eocalc.com).  From that theme are many variations.  For example, in place of coconut oil I've subbed any combination of sweet almond oil, jojoba oil, meadowfoam seed oil, etc.
> 
> Have fun with it and keep us posted!


Thanks Zing for sharing. I haven’t made lotion bars before but you make it look fairly easy.


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## Dawni (Jan 6, 2021)

Mr. @Zing is who got me into making lotion bars actually 



Angie Gail said:


> What do y'all think of this recipe for a hot, humid climate?
> 25% beeswax
> 20% hemp seed oil
> 20% jojoba oil
> ...


My beeswax is a tad bit more than yours, and I have my butter and oil amounts switched, not exactly though but more or less. Try yours and see. If it's too soft then add more butter and take notes of your measurements so you can adjust in percentages after. You don't necessarily have to total 100% for these, but you'll have to do some math after lol


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## linne1gi (Jan 6, 2021)

Angie Gail said:


> What do y'all think of this recipe for a hot, humid climate?
> 25% beeswax
> 20% hemp seed oil
> 20% jojoba oil
> ...


Of course your hemp oil (dark green tint) will also "color" your lotion bars.  I personally don't care for the green tint and use a lighter colored oil.


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## Katie68121 (Mar 16, 2021)

Hi! Looking up lotion bars and came across this thread. Couple questions, when calculating for lotion bar recipe volume of mold, do I just weigh the mold when it’s filled with water, or do I have to take measurements of the mold I’m using? I’m just confused on how to figure out the batch size...including fragrances too..TY


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## Zing (Mar 16, 2021)

I would try weighing water.  I never came across a formula and for me I just played around until I had an approximate amount. I have molds that are like large "bullets" and use 32 gram per bullet.  I have molds that are mini-muffins, too.  

You'll love doing this!  So quick, cheap, easy!!  And if you don't like the consistency, just re-melt it and tweak it.

For decades in the wintertime, my hands would be so dry that my fingertips would crack and bleed.  I tried every store brand lotion and still had a problem.  But the lotion bars were my miracle cure.  Let us know how it goes.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 16, 2021)

I usually use teeny little molds for lotion bars -- like the molds for making mints or ones a bit larger than that. 

I confess I don't measure molds like this. I just make a 100 gram batch, pour it to the correct depth in as many of the cavities as I can fill, and see how many lotion bars that makes. Then tweak the batch size bigger or smaller as needed.

If you weigh the amount of water needed to fill the mold, this method will over-estimate the amount of lotion bar "stuff" you need to fill the mold, since water is more dense than beeswax and fats. But it would give you a rough idea.


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## AliOop (Mar 16, 2021)

Hi Katie,

Usually lotion bars are poured into cavity molds. The easiest way to figure the volume on those is to measure the volume of water it takes to fill one cavity, and multiple that by the number of cavities in your mold. That is going to give you a volume measurement.

Of course, you are going to measure your ingredients by weight. However, you can roughly translate this into volume by viewing your weighed-out ingredients in a Pyrex measuring cup. So for instance, if your ingredients amount to 2 cups by volume, and your cavity molds will hold that, you are good to go. Otherwise, get out some extra molds. 

Once I've made a recipe, I do note the volume that it creates, and which molds I used. That helps me remember/plan for future batches. HTH!


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## Dawni (Mar 16, 2021)

I do it like DeeAnna!

Also, one of my molds had a label that said each was 45g so I went with that.. Then I noted that there was excess and adjusted my batch size accordingly.


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## Carly B (Mar 19, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> I usually use teeny little molds for lotion bars -- like the molds for making mints or ones a bit larger than that.
> 
> I confess I don't measure molds like this. I just make a 100 gram batch, pour it to the correct depth in as many of the cavities as I can fill, and see how many lotion bars that makes. Then tweak the batch size bigger or smaller as needed.
> 
> If you weigh the amount of water needed to fill the mold, this method will over-estimate the amount of lotion bar "stuff" you need to fill the mold, since water is more dense than beeswax and fats. But it would give you a rough idea.



Hi DeeAnna!

I love the idea of mini lotion bars--Are yours small enough that they are single use?  You just grab one and let it melt with the heat of your hand?

And how do you store them?  I have little dishes (think plastic take out cups for dressing) with lotion bars of various blends and fragrances all over the house, which is certainly not optimum, but how do you store the little ones?  In a jar or plastic bag?  Or something else?  I'm getting all sorts of fun ideas now......


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## DeeAnna (Mar 19, 2021)

No, the lotion bars I've made are sized to last awhile -- not individual use size. I usually put them in a small metal container with a press-fit top. The lotion bars I've made for these containers are firm enough that a bar will (usually) remain loose in the container. When you want to use it, you tip or shake the bar into your hand, let it warm a bit in your hands, apply, and then put it back in the container.

Another option for a formulation that's a bit softer is to put the product in a mini-size deodorant container or a jumbo 0.5 oz lip balm tube. I like this as well.


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## Carly B (Mar 19, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> No, the lotion bars I've made are sized to last awhile -- not individual use size. I usually put them in a small metal container with a press-fit top. The lotion bars I've made for these containers are firm enough that a bar will (usually) remain loose in the container. When you want to use it, you tip or shake the bar into your hand, let it warm a bit in your hands, apply, and then put it back in the container.
> 
> Another option for a formulation that's a bit softer is to put the product in a mini-size deodorant container or a jumbo 0.5 oz lip balm tube. I like this as well.



Gotcha.  Thanks.  I was thinking you were talking the little square mint sizes, about the size of a single gummi bear.  And then I thought of the single use soap petals, and wondered if it was the same idea.

I have those tubes--I love the big lip balm tube for.....lip balm.  But as I primarily use lotion on my hands, the tubes make it more difficult to navigate around the knuckles, etc.


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## Kcryss (Mar 19, 2021)

I use the large lip balm type tubes. I think they're .5oz. Easy to toss in a purse or bag.


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## DeeAnna (Mar 19, 2021)

Even a gummy bear mold would be too large as a single use portion, I'd think. I'd probably end up throwing some of it away.


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## AliOop (Mar 19, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> Even a gummy bear mold would be too large as a single use portion, I'd think. I'd probably end up throwing some of it away.


I made little snowman bars, and even that fairly simple shape (two circles, basically) didn't end up working well when the bar became thin. Simplified shapes, like a single circle, square, or rectangle are probably best for lotion bars that are not in a tube applicator. But I plan to switch to the tubes myself.


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## TheGecko (Mar 19, 2021)

Angie Gail said:


> What do y'all think of this recipe for a hot, humid climate?
> 25% beeswax
> 20% hemp seed oil
> 20% jojoba oil
> ...



All you can do is make a small batch and see how it feels. I do recommend two things: 1) Add some Arrowroot or Tapioca Starch. 2). Let them ‘cure’ for a couple of weeks. I make two sizes...one about the size of a 50 cent piece and the other is with those ‘bee’ cavity molds. The smaller ones fit it a 1oz tin and I just drop them in after they have cooled solid in the frig. The others get wrapped in a small coffee filter and dropped in a 2 oz tin. I then out them in a box and let them sit on the shelf for a couple of weeks.

One thing about using Cocoa Butter is deciding if you are going to use natural or deodorized if you plan to scent your bars.  For some scents, the cocoa smell can wash out the scent, with others it compliments it.


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## Aromasuzie (Mar 19, 2021)

Zing said:


> @Angie Gail I'm an evangelist for making lotion bars and have tried many recipes.  The super cool thing is that experimenting is so easy and the results are nearly instantaneous -- unlike making soap!  I've made a batch of lotion bars, wanted it "harder" so re-melted and added more beeswax, and vice-versa wanting it softer and adding more oil.
> 
> My basic recipe is 1/3 each of beeswax, shea or cocoa butter, coconut oil, scented with an essential oil at 1% of oil weight (or check on eocalc.com).  From that theme are many variations.  For example, in place of coconut oil I've subbed any combination of sweet almond oil, jojoba oil, meadowfoam seed oil, etc.
> 
> Have fun with it and keep us posted!


Do you find this proportion feels sticky on the skin?  I trialed this and it felt too sticky for me but others didn’t even notice?  I’m now going to reduce beeswax to 20%


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## Zing (Mar 20, 2021)

Aromasuzie said:


> Do you find this proportion feels sticky on the skin?  I trialed this and it felt too sticky for me but others didn’t even notice?  I’m now going to reduce beeswax to 20%


My lotion bars feel wonderful on my skin -- but you should tweak away to find proportions that work for you!


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## Tara_H (Mar 20, 2021)

DeeAnna said:


> Even a gummy bear mold would be too large as a single use portion, I'd think. I'd probably end up throwing some of it away.


When you guys were talking about mints, I was imagining, like, tic tacs. I bet if you could make them that small they'd be single use!


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## Guspuppy (Mar 20, 2021)

Zing said:


> For decades in the wintertime, my hands would be so dry that my fingertips would crack and bleed.  I tried every store brand lotion and still had a problem.  But the lotion bars were my miracle cure.  Let us know how it goes.



Zing! My fingers STILL crack and bleed in winter, and that's even using a @TashaBird  tallow lotion bar, although hers are SO MUCH nicer than the ones I was making for myself. (mine: beeswax, shea butter, a soft oil like olive) What's your secret ingredient? Do I need to shell out for meadowfoam seed oil?! My own tend to just feel greasy on top of my skin. Tasha's soak in but I still get cracks. I finally bought some tallow and am going to experiment but I came here wondering what % beeswax to use to make a bar that won't melt sitting in the sun inside a glass 'house' at work. (I move trailers around a freight yard with a machine made for this purpose.)


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## AliOop (Mar 20, 2021)

Aromasuzie said:


> Do you find this proportion feels sticky on the skin?  I trialed this and it felt too sticky for me but others didn’t even notice?  I’m now going to reduce beeswax to 20%


Beeswax always feels sticky to me, as well. For my own bars, I tend to use very little (~10%) and make up for it with more cocoa butter or other hard butters. But my hairdresser loves my higher beeswax bars because she has to wash so often, and the wax coating protects her skin from getting as dried out. To each her own!


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## Aromasuzie (Mar 23, 2021)

AliOop said:


> Beeswax always feels sticky to me, as well. For my own bars, I tend to use very little (~10%) and make up for it with more cocoa butter or other hard butters. But my hairdresser loves my higher beeswax bars because she has to wash so often, and the wax coating protects her skin from getting as dried out. To each her own!


Thanks for that. I suppose life would be boring if we liked all the same things


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## KiwiMoose (Mar 23, 2021)

So can i use soy wax ya reckon?  Instead of Beeswax? I'm trying to stick to my vegan theme.


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## Zing (Mar 23, 2021)

Guspuppy said:


> Zing! My fingers STILL crack and bleed in winter, and that's even using a @TashaBird  tallow lotion bar, although hers are SO MUCH nicer than the ones I was making for myself. (mine: beeswax, shea butter, a soft oil like olive) What's your secret ingredient? Do I need to shell out for meadowfoam seed oil?! My own tend to just feel greasy on top of my skin. Tasha's soak in but I still get cracks. I finally bought some tallow and am going to experiment but I came here wondering what % beeswax to use to make a bar that won't melt sitting in the sun inside a glass 'house' at work. (I move trailers around a freight yard with a machine made for this purpose.)


Sorry about your hands.  My main recipe is 1/3 each of beeswax, coconut oil, shea butter.  I don't know what to advise you except to experiment.  If it helps you at all, my son will only use lotion bars that have 50% beeswax -- his rock climbing hands take a beating.


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## Carly B (Mar 23, 2021)

@KiwiMoose, I think soy wax would have too low a melting point, but the great thing about these is  you can make them using as much product as you want and see what you think.  I've made batches as small as two ounces to try different combinations..  Can you get candalilla wax in NZ?  It's used in vegan recipes.  You also need less wax than beeswax.


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## Zing (Mar 23, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> So can i use soy wax ya reckon?



Always with the soy wax, that one.


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## KiwiMoose (Mar 23, 2021)

Carly B said:


> @KiwiMoose, I think soy wax would have too low a melting point, but the great thing about these is  you can make them using as much product as you want and see what you think.  I've made batches as small as two ounces to try different combinations..  Can you get candalilla wax in NZ?  It's used in vegan recipes.  You also need less wax than beeswax.


yes we can !  Thanks carly!


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## KimW (Mar 23, 2021)

Guspuppy said:


> Zing! My fingers STILL crack and bleed in winter, and that's even using a @TashaBird  tallow lotion bar, although hers are SO MUCH nicer than the ones I was making for myself. (mine: beeswax, shea butter, a soft oil like olive) What's your secret ingredient? Do I need to shell out for meadowfoam seed oil?! My own tend to just feel greasy on top of my skin. Tasha's soak in but I still get cracks. I finally bought some tallow and am going to experiment but I came here wondering what % beeswax to use to make a bar that won't melt sitting in the sun inside a glass 'house' at work. (I move trailers around a freight yard with a machine made for this purpose.)


Have you ever tried "No-Crack" super hand cream?  Or can you try adding mineral oil or lanolin to your lotion bars?
Ingredients: Water, Emulsifying Wax NF, Propylene Glycol, Mineral Oil, Lanolin, Allantoin, Sorbic Acid

The no-crack cream is the best I've ever found for my hands, which can also literally crack and bleed in the winter.  Through some trial and error I found it to be the mineral oil that worked the magic on my hands.  I still buy the no-crack because it works so good, it's already made, and one tub will last me a few winters without going off/rancid.   Ugh - how I hate cracked hands!


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## Guspuppy (Mar 24, 2021)

KimW said:


> Have you ever tried "No-Crack" super hand cream?  Or can you try adding mineral oil or lanolin to your lotion bars?
> Ingredients: Water, Emulsifying Wax NF, Propylene Glycol, Mineral Oil, Lanolin, Allantoin, Sorbic Acid
> 
> The no-crack cream is the best I've ever found for my hands, which can also literally crack and bleed in the winter.  Through some trial and error I found it to be the mineral oil that worked the magic on my hands.  I still buy the no-crack because it works so good, it's already made, and one tub will last me a few winters without going off/rancid.   Ugh - how I hate cracked hands!



I have not heard of this! I will look for it next winter for sure. Thank you Kim! I have in desperation used bag balm on the cuts, bandaided overnight to promote healing. It helps a lot but I can't stand the bag balm just as a hand lotion because it's so sticky.


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## GemstonePony (Mar 24, 2021)

Guspuppy said:


> I have not heard of this! I will look for it next winter for sure. Thank you Kim! I have in desperation used bag balm on the cuts, bandaided overnight to promote healing. It helps a lot but I can't stand the bag balm just as a hand lotion because it's so sticky.


Just a little observation- that does appear to be an emulsion, since it contains emulsifying wax and water. Basically, lotion. And while oil/fat/wax combos like lotion bars can keep your skin from losing water as quickly, they don't add water back, which is what emulsified lotions, body butters, and creams do. The mineral oil and other ingredients in the hand cream may also improve your formula, but water may be the ingredient your skin really needs through dry winter months.


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## KimW (Mar 24, 2021)

Guspuppy said:


> I have not heard of this! I will look for it next winter for sure. Thank you Kim! I have in desperation used bag balm on the cuts, bandaided overnight to promote healing. It helps a lot but I can't stand the bag balm just as a hand lotion because it's so sticky.


Not sure where you are in PA, but I get mine from Duluth Trading Co, and there's a location in Pittsburgh.


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## Guspuppy (Mar 25, 2021)

KimW said:


> Not sure where you are in PA, but I get mine from Duluth Trading Co, and there's a location in Pittsburgh.



I'm near enough to Pittsburgh! Thank you again!!!


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## Complexions (Mar 27, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> So can i use soy wax ya reckon?  Instead of Beeswax? I'm trying to stick to my vegan theme.



I use soy wax (100%) in my lotion bars.  It does cause it to melt a bit easier, so I tend to use a higher % of soy wax than one would use beeswax.  I also use a high % of hard butter with lower % of oil.


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## AliOop (Mar 27, 2021)

Complexions said:


> I use soy wax (100%) in my lotion bars.  It does cause it to melt a bit easier, so I tend to use a higher % of soy wax than one would use beeswax.  I also use a high % of hard butter with lower % of oil.


By 100%, do you mean as a complete replacer for beeswax? Because I don't think you mean a 100% soywax lotion bar, yes?


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## Complexions (Mar 27, 2021)

AliOop said:


> By 100%, do you mean as a complete replacer for beeswax? Because I don't think you mean a 100% soywax lotion bar, yes?



Sorry! Lemme clarify lol.  I mean the 100% soy wax such as Golden Foods 415, that has no other additives!  But yes, a complete replacer for beeswax!  

Depending on how warm your climate is, try starting with 35% or 40% soy wax with 5% cetyl alcohol as a beeswax replacer.


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## Hope Ann (Mar 28, 2021)

Complexions said:


> Sorry! Lemme clarify lol.  I mean the 100% soy wax such as Golden Foods 415, that has no other additives!  But yes, a complete replacer for beeswax!
> 
> Depending on how warm your climate is, try starting with 35% or 40% soy wax with 5% cetyl alcohol as a beeswax replacer.



Soy wax has a nice feel on skin IMHO.

Hope


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## melinda48 (Apr 2, 2021)

Does anyone use candelilla wax in their lotion bars?


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## AliOop (Apr 2, 2021)

melinda48 said:


> Does anyone use candelilla wax in their lotion bars?


I have, and was not crazy about it. But I am one of the weirdos who prefers little to no wax in my lotion bars. No matter what I do, or which wax I use, it always feels sticky to me.


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## melinda48 (Apr 2, 2021)

AliOop said:


> I have, and was not crazy about it. But I am one of the weirdos who prefers little to no wax in my lotion bars. No matter what I do, or which wax I use, it always feels sticky to me.


Thanks for your response. I appreciate your opinion!


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## MGM (Apr 11, 2021)

Skin cracks....eeek, *so painful*. And they never heal....some sort of mystifying dark magic cut that is immune to the skin's normal procedures! I get them on my thumbs each and every winter and the things that don't work are: any lotions, including Heel Balm; any medical ointments with bandaids overnight; any other thing. Only thing that has worked for me? 3M Skin Crack Care. Pain goes away within an hour, because it seals up the nerves. Then it heals within a few days. A little bottle should last a long time, as you really just apply once a day when you have a crack. I'm all about lotion bars for regular skin stuff, but those cracks are a true medical issue.


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## Gaisy59 (Apr 11, 2021)

MGM said:


> Skin cracks....eeek, *so painful*. And they never heal....some sort of mystifying dark magic cut that is immune to the skin's normal procedures! I get them on my thumbs each and every winter and the things that don't work are: any lotions, including Heel Balm; any medical ointments with bandaids overnight; any other thing. Only thing that has worked for me? 3M Skin Crack Care. Pain goes away within an hour, because it seals up the nerves. Then it heals within a few days. A little bottle should last a long time, as you really just apply once a day when you have a crack. I'm all about lotion bars for regular skin stuff, but those cracks are a true medical issue.


Thanks for the info. I hate those cracks on my fingers, and they stay very sore for days!


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## MGM (Apr 11, 2021)

Gaisy59 said:


> Thanks for the info. I hate those cracks on my fingers, and they stay very sore for days!


NP. Us Prairie girls gotta stick together!


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## Gaisy59 (Apr 11, 2021)




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## VikingChick (Apr 11, 2021)

privatekane said:


> I found this...
> *Solid Lotion Bars*
> The luxurious butters add special attention to winter dry & itchy skin!


This sounds lovely! I just bought some fun little molds that I’ve been waiting to use for mini lotion bars!


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## melinda48 (Apr 12, 2021)

Guspuppy said:


> Zing! My fingers STILL crack and bleed in winter, and that's even using a @TashaBird  tallow lotion bar, although hers are SO MUCH nicer than the ones I was making for myself. (mine: beeswax, shea butter, a soft oil like olive) What's your secret ingredient? Do I need to shell out for meadowfoam seed oil?! My own tend to just feel greasy on top of my skin. Tasha's soak in but I still get cracks. I finally bought some tallow and am going to experiment but I came here wondering what % beeswax to use to make a bar that won't melt sitting in the sun inside a glass 'house' at work. (I move trailers around a freight yard with a machine made for this purpose.)


Have you considered slathering your hands and then wearing lightweight gloves (like book or antique conservators wear) to bed? I found that worked great for me!


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## Zing (Apr 12, 2021)

MGM said:


> Skin cracks....eeek, *so painful*. And they never heal....some sort of mystifying dark magic cut that is immune to the skin's normal procedures! I get them on my thumbs each and every winter and the things that don't work are: any lotions, including Heel Balm; any medical ointments with bandaids overnight; any other thing. Only thing that has worked for me? 3M Skin Crack Care. Pain goes away within an hour, because it seals up the nerves. Then it heals within a few days. A little bottle should last a long time, as you really just apply once a day when you have a crack. I'm all about lotion bars for regular skin stuff, but those cracks are a true medical issue.


Good to see you!  So sorry that lotion bars don't help your fingers cracking.  My fingers cracked and bled every winter until I started using my own lotion bars.  Those cracks were so very painful and I resorted to using liquid cement or super glue to stop the pain.


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## Hope Ann (Apr 16, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> So can i use soy wax ya reckon?  Instead of Beeswax? I'm trying to stick to my vegan theme.



Soy wax is much softer than beeswax.  It absorbs better though with a more creamy feel.

Hope


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## Winter8 (May 28, 2021)

I like to make lotion bars in a twist up tube like a deodrant tube.


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## Carly B (Jul 25, 2021)

Zing said:


> Sorry about your hands.  My main recipe is 1/3 each of beeswax, coconut oil, shea butter.  I don't know what to advise you except to experiment.  If it helps you at all, my son will only use lotion bars that have 50% beeswax -- his rock climbing hands take a beating.



Following your 1/3 each recipe, which is pretty much the proportions I use, if I wanted to use lard or tallow, would I sub it for the coconut oil or the shea butter?


----------



## Zing (Jul 25, 2021)

Carly B said:


> Following your 1/3 each recipe, which is pretty much the proportions I use, if I wanted to use lard or tallow, would I sub it for the coconut oil or the shea butter?


I'm so sorry but I have no experience with using animal products in lotion bars or soap.  But I bet a search on this forum will turn up something.  Good luck!


----------



## Dawni (Jul 26, 2021)

Carly B said:


> Following your 1/3 each recipe, which is pretty much the proportions I use, if I wanted to use lard or tallow, would I sub it for the coconut oil or the shea butter?


Not used lard or tallow but I'm guessing you'll have to check melting point of each.. One to know if you're to melt it first or last, coz in my experience with lard in soap, it smells when heated too long or too much.

Also, to know how melty your final product will be - increase or decrease lard/tallow compared to coconut oil/shea - otherwise you'll end up with a bar that's too soft or too hard, etc. 

Or you can always just wing it and try different combos lol


----------



## Carly B (Jul 26, 2021)

Thanks, Dawni!  I'm real big on "winging it."  Measure and weigh for lye  soap and baking, but mostly I'm an experimenter.  My neighbor is vegan, and I made her a lotion bar with candelilla wax, mango butter, and sunflower oil, with a touch of arrowroot, and that turned out really nice.  I wanted to try one with tallow for me, so I used 1/3 beeswax, and the remaining 2/3 into equal parts tallow, shea butter, and sweet almond oil.  I forgot to add the arrowroot. It firmed up nicely and  glides on easily.  It's not that greasy feeling--it would probably feel even less greasy if I remembered the starch.                 

The fun is coming up with new blends.  I want to try and create a recipe I really like so I can add a lotion bar to Christmas baskets and stuff.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 15, 2021)

OK - I'm about to get on this bandwagon.  I'm going to try soy wax in mine.  I've ordered apricot kernel oil, shea butter, and meadowfoam oil to go in. Is it true @Zing that it will take up to 1/3 liquid oil?  Do I need CO 76 degrees to help it stay firm?
I'm going to try:
40% Soy wax
30% Shea Butter
10% CO
15% Apricot Kernel Oil
4% Meadowfoam Oil
1% ROE
How does that sound?


----------



## linne1gi (Oct 15, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> OK - I'm about to get on this bandwagon.  I'm going to try soy wax in mine.  I've ordered apricot kernel oil, shea butter, and meadowfoam oil to go in. Is it true @Zing that it will take up to 1/3 liquid oil?  Do I need CO 76 degrees to help it stay firm?
> I'm going to try:
> 40% Soy wax
> 30% Shea Butter
> ...


Looking forward to @Zing’s input, for me, Coconut Oil is a liquid (I live in South Florida). I would need a harder butter to have it stay firm.  I have a body butter I made last winter with SoyWax and Sweet Almond Oil, and Vitamin E. It’s still great!


----------



## Zing (Oct 15, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> OK - I'm about to get on this bandwagon.  I'm going to try soy wax in mine.  I've ordered apricot kernel oil, shea butter, and meadowfoam oil to go in. Is it true @Zing that it will take up to 1/3 liquid oil?  Do I need CO 76 degrees to help it stay firm?
> I'm going to try:
> 40% Soy wax
> 30% Shea Butter
> ...


Woot woot!  Welcome aboard!  All the cool kids are doin' it!

CO is strange -- is it a liquid or a solid?  I kinda count it as a liquid.  I've also had success with using one-third of liquids (some combinations of 1 or more of the following, meadowfoam seed oil (mmm), apricot kernel, sweet almond, and jojoba).  The 1/3 beeswax and 1/3 shea (or cocoa) butter keep it solidified.  I do make lots of lotion bars with 1/3 coconut oil but it is slow to absorb.  When I have money to splurge I'll buy meadowfoam seed oil (mmm), jojoba, etc. because they absorb quicker and are less greasy.

But, hey, with lotion bars, it's sooo easy to experiment so just jump in, re-melt, tweak as needed!
Are you doing unscented or scented?


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 15, 2021)

Zing said:


> Woot woot!  Welcome aboard!  All the cool kids are doin' it!
> 
> CO is strange -- is it a liquid or a solid?  I kinda count it as a liquid.  I've also had success with using one-third of liquids (some combinations of 1 or more of the following, meadowfoam seed oil (mmm), apricot kernel, sweet almond, and jojoba).  The 1/3 beeswax and 1/3 shea (or cocoa) butter keep it solidified.  I do make lots of lotion bars with 1/3 coconut oil but it is slow to absorb.  When I have money to splurge I'll buy meadowfoam seed oil (mmm), jojoba, etc. because they absorb quicker and are less greasy.
> 
> ...


Scented with either orange blossom or rose geranium. Or some bars of each?


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 15, 2021)

linne1gi said:


> Looking forward to @Zing’s input, for me, Coconut Oil is a liquid (I live in South Florida). I would need a harder butter to have it stay firm.  I have a body butter I made last winter with SoyWax and Sweet Almond Oil, and Vitamin E. It’s still great!


So do you think the 70% of shea and soy wax combined would be enough to keep it solid at room temp?  
Our CO is also liquid here at room temp in the summertime.


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## Zing (Oct 15, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> So do you think the 70% of shea and soy wax combined would be enough to keep it solid at room temp?
> Our CO is also liquid here at room temp in the summertime.


My geography is horrible but I think Hawaii is closer to the equator than New Zealand.  For what it's worth, my friends in Hawaii love my lotion bars that are 1/3 each of beeswax, shea butter, and coconut oil, that they arrive in the mail as solid bars and stay solid.  And they're constantly begging me for more....  So....


----------



## Peachy Clean Soap (Oct 15, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> OK - I'm about to get on this bandwagon.  I'm going to try soy wax in mine.  I've ordered apricot kernel oil, shea butter, and meadowfoam oil to go in. Is it true @Zing that it will take up to 1/3 liquid oil?  Do I need CO 76 degrees to help it stay firm?
> I'm going to try:
> 40% Soy wax
> 30% Shea Butter
> ...


let us know how you like it.


----------



## Complexions (Oct 16, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> OK - I'm about to get on this bandwagon.  I'm going to try soy wax in mine.  I've ordered apricot kernel oil, shea butter, and meadowfoam oil to go in. Is it true @Zing that it will take up to 1/3 liquid oil?  Do I need CO 76 degrees to help it stay firm?
> I'm going to try:
> 40% Soy wax
> 30% Shea Butter
> ...



That's a good place to start.  If you find it a bit to soft or melty, try these tweaks: 15% shea with 15% cocoa butter to firm it up some.  

If it seems too greasy, reduce CO to 5% and add that 5% to the soy wax (also helps it firm up too).


----------



## SideDoorSoaps (Oct 16, 2021)

I’ve tried the WSP Recipe for lotion bars with the hemp seed oil and it was a very heavy. I’ve come to realize I don’t like hemp oil at all from the smell to the texture after feel. No one who tried my bars liked them either. 

My regular recipe has shea butter, coconut, cocoa butter, and beeswax. I’ve got lots of soy wax from a candle project that I think I’m going to try! @KiwiMoose i love hearing about your soy wax adventures.


----------



## Zing (Oct 16, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> OK - I'm about to get on this bandwagon.  I'm going to try soy wax in mine.  I've ordered apricot kernel oil, shea butter, and meadowfoam oil to go in. Is it true @Zing that it will take up to 1/3 liquid oil?  Do I need CO 76 degrees to help it stay firm?
> I'm going to try:
> 40% Soy wax
> 30% Shea Butter
> ...


Ahem!!  Any update??!!


----------



## Quanta (Oct 16, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> OK - I'm about to get on this bandwagon.  I'm going to try soy wax in mine.  I've ordered apricot kernel oil, shea butter, and meadowfoam oil to go in. Is it true @Zing that it will take up to 1/3 liquid oil?  Do I need CO 76 degrees to help it stay firm?
> I'm going to try:
> 40% Soy wax
> 30% Shea Butter
> ...


Be careful with the ROE. Too much will accelerate rancidity, and 1% is really a lot. DeeAnna has suggested usage rates on her website. I would go with the amount she recommends adding to oils for storage.





						Rosemary oleoresin (ROE) | Soapy Stuff
					

Classic Bells restores antique sleigh bells and manufactures bell home decor. Wholesale. Retail.




					classicbells.com


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 16, 2021)

Zing said:


> Ahem!!  Any update??!!


Patience grasshopper - my supplies won't be here until Tuesday.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 16, 2021)

Quanta said:


> Be careful with the ROE. Too much will accelerate rancidity, and 1% is really a lot. DeeAnna has suggested usage rates on her website. I would go with the amount she recommends adding to oils for storage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes I see that now, it should be 0.1%, thanks for the warning.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 16, 2021)

SideDoorSoaps said:


> I’ve tried the WSP Recipe for lotion bars with the hemp seed oil and it was a very heavy. I’ve come to realize I don’t like hemp oil at all from the smell to the texture after feel. No one who tried my bars liked them either.
> 
> My regular recipe has shea butter, coconut, cocoa butter, and beeswax. I’ve got lots of soy wax from a candle project that I think I’m going to try! @KiwiMoose i love hearing about your soy wax adventures.


I'm not a fan of hemp seed oil either.  I'm currently using a conditioner with hemp in it, and it's a bit stinky.


----------



## Juggsy (Oct 17, 2021)

@kiwi soy wax you should get away with at 40% depending on are you north or south Island. Does your Shea butter stay solid? Or even semi solid. Most lotion bars go on 33% wax (can reduce if using carnauba or candelilla wax) 33% butters 33% liquid oil. 1% fragrance.
You can play greatly with recipes. I don't use arrowroot etc in mine - defeating purpose in my opinion, but some like it. Exfoliating lotion bars are my favourite.

Someone above (must admit to just skimming) said you would have to use a gummy mould for single uee lb. This is not true. 20g bars are very doable - sell to massage therapist and she started with 20g bars to start. On dry skin, full body massage she's using 40g.
Lotion bars are very popular but a b**tch  to post. Especially in Queensland  I hate posting them. I wrap them in that weird foil stuff... but still prefer not to send.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 17, 2021)

Juggsy said:


> @kiwi soy wax you should get away with at 40% depending on are you north or south Island. Does your Shea butter stay solid? Or even semi solid. Most lotion bars go on 33% wax (can reduce if using carnauba or candelilla wax) 33% butters 33% liquid oil. 1% fragrance.
> You can play greatly with recipes. I don't use arrowroot etc in mine - defeating purpose in my opinion, but some like it. Exfoliating lotion bars are my favourite.
> 
> Someone above (must admit to just skimming) said you would have to use a gummy mould for single uee lb. This is not true. 20g bars are very doable - sell to massage therapist and she started with 20g bars to start. On dry skin, full body massage she's using 40g.
> Lotion bars are very popular but a b**tch  to post. Especially in Queensland  I hate posting them. I wrap them in that weird foil stuff... but still prefer not to send.


Do they melt in the post? I've bought some little tins for mine to go in - I was planning on making approx 40-50g bars.
We get hot and humid weather where I live - nothing like Queensland of course - but in latter years it's been creeping up to 33 degrees some days, with high-ish humidity.  Our CO is liquid in the summer, but my shea butter stays solid.  Would you class the CO as a liquid oil?  I think I would in my case.

I think the difference with the USA is that they pretty much all have air-con in their homes so they don't 'feel' the outside temp.  Air conditioning has only become a thing there in the last 10-15 years and it's usually just in one room.  We are lucky to have it in both our living area _and_ the master bedroom, but most people just have it in their living area. So if people are storing their lotion bars in a bathroom it's still likely to be exposed to a high heat/humidity environment.

Thanks for the tips!


----------



## Juggsy (Oct 17, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Do they melt in the post? I've bought some little tins for mine to go in - I was planning on making approx 40-50g bars.
> We get hot and humid weather where I live - nothing like Queensland of course - but in latter years it's been creeping up to 33 degrees some days, with high-ish humidity.  Our CO is liquid in the summer, but my shea butter stays solid.  Would you class the CO as a liquid oil?  I think I would in my case.
> 
> I think the difference with the USA is that they pretty much all have air-con in their homes so they don't 'feel' the outside temp.  Air conditioning has only become a thing there in the last 10-15 years and it's usually just in one room.  We are lucky to have it in both our living area _and_ the master bedroom, but most people just have it in their living area. So if people are storing their lotion bars in a bathroom it's still likely to be exposed to a high heat/humidity environment.
> ...


Yeah, they can sometimes. Mine go in tin too first then foil - I tell people if it's a really hot day, just to not open the tin until it's cooled down.

So outside might be 35° but package is being delivered likely to be over 45° sitting inside an AP van then gets zoomed around.  

I've found they will stay in shape rather then completely liquefy. So if you touched it likely to collapse. 

I would class CO as a liquid oil. My Shea butter looks like slush already. 

I don't have Aircon. Well there's a unit in the lounge right above the stairs to down stairs. So I don't use it. I did try and even using an industrial fan (I don't have ceiling fans. I have big Cat fans) it didn't cool the house down. Too many places for the air to escape to. The rent is cheap, I can see the ocean and a forest (watching it get divided for housing ) and I don't plan on moving until youngest is older. 

Aircon I believe is mandatory in new housing in QLD. I could be wrong but I think they followed suit from the territory. 

My wicked (good) step mother hasn't been home since before covid but she said that a couple of years ago that Aircon is getting traction back home (NZ) and my niece was in shock when she moved to Wellington (we all cut that she didn't go north - it's a pride thing but she fell in love with a Southie)  look at me babbling again. Constant today....


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 22, 2021)

Zing said:


> Ahem!!  Any update??!!


A little bit greasy - should I wait a few days before using?


----------



## Zing (Oct 22, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> A little bit greasy - should I wait a few days before using?


Interesting.  I thought they'd be hard cuz of all your wax.  And meadowfoam, rice bran, and apricot kernel usually absorb quickly into the skin.

I'm not 100% scientifically sure about this but I don't think time does anything to lotion bars.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 22, 2021)

Update:
So this morning I used the lotion bar and it was much less greasy. It was a bit draggy, but I don't mind that.  I rubbed some into my fingertips/cuticles and they look so much better already!  I even used my hands to rub a bit of the residue through my hair ( which is dry and coarse) and it worked well as a hair 'wax' in a very small amount to settle frizz.
The only thing is, I think I put too much fragrance oil in it, coz i now smell like a garden full of rose geranium.  I used 4g in a 200g batch, so maybe I should pare that back a bit?


----------



## Juggsy (Oct 23, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> A little bit greasy - should I wait a few days before using?


Yes. It will be. Soy wax especially doesn't help cut greasiness especially the way other waxes and esters do.

You could try adding a starch - tapioca has great consistency in LB.

You could also swap Shea for mango (it's less greasy). Or you could opt for oils and create a w/o lotion bar, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish which includes preserving, emulsifiers etc
@kiwi what percentage was the fragrance. You should use 0.5% max


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 23, 2021)

Juggsy said:


> Yes. It will be. Soy wax especially doesn't help cut greasiness especially the way other waxes and esters do.
> 
> You could try adding a starch - tapioca has great consistency in LB.
> 
> ...


I have arrowroot and tapioca flour here - in my pantry.  Would they be ok?  
I'm thinking I should re-melt the bars, add in the starch, double the recipe but not the fragrance. How much starch would I use?
My current usage of fragrance is 2%, and by doubling the recipe it would reduce it to 1%.


----------



## GemstonePony (Oct 23, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> I have arrowroot and tapioca flour here - in my pantry.  Would they be ok?
> I'm thinking I should re-melt the bars, add in the starch, double the recipe but not the fragrance. How much starch would I use?
> My current usage of fragrance is 2%, and by doubling the recipe it would reduce it to 1%.


Arrowroot powder is is my fave for body butter, but I haven't used it in lotion bars as much.


----------



## Quanta (Oct 23, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> A little bit greasy - should I wait a few days before using?


If they are too greasy, try replacing the Shea with something else like mango butter or babassu oil.



Zing said:


> Interesting.  I thought they'd be hard cuz of all your wax.  And meadowfoam, rice bran, and apricot kernel usually absorb quickly into the skin.


Remember, soy "wax" isn't wax, it's partially hydrogenated soybean oil, which means that about two thirds of it is just plain soybean oil.



> I'm not 100% scientifically sure about this but I don't think time does anything to lotion bars.


In my experience, using my formula, lotion bars need a good few days to cure, preferably a week. When I get custom orders, I tend to deliver them within a day or two after making them, and I make sure the recipient knows that they are going to feel different a week later. They typically feel oilier when they are brand new. But that is with my formula, which is quite different from yours, and it has been long enough since I used your formula that I don't remember what the cure time was, if there was one.



KiwiMoose said:


> Update:
> So this morning I used the lotion bar and it was much less greasy. It was a bit draggy, but I don't mind that.  I rubbed some into my fingertips/cuticles and they look so much better already!  I even used my hands to rub a bit of the residue through my hair ( which is dry and coarse) and it worked well as a hair 'wax' in a very small amount to settle frizz.
> The only thing is, I think I put too much fragrance oil in it, coz i now smell like a garden full of rose geranium.  I used 4g in a 200g batch, so maybe I should pare that back a bit?


I use 1% for most of the FOs that I use, less for a particularly strong FO and even less for EOs. I would only use 2% of an FO that was particularly weak or previously diluted, and never more than 1% of any EO.



Juggsy said:


> Yes. It will be. Soy wax especially doesn't help cut greasiness especially the way other waxes and esters do.


I agree. I especially like esters. I use isopropyl myristate in mine at about 5%.



> You could try adding a starch - tapioca has great consistency in LB.


I have never tried tapioca starch, although I have tried both cornstarch and arrowroot and like the feel. What kind of tapioca starch do you use? I know there are different kinds but I don't really know what the differences are.



> You could also swap Shea for mango (it's less greasy).


I rarely use Shea in my lotions at all anymore due to its greasiness, and also its tendency to get grainy unless it's cooled exactly right. I've been using a blend of mango and babassu and it's really nice for those who prefer a less greasy lotion.



GemstonePony said:


> Arrowroot powder is is my fave for body butter, but I haven't used it in lotion bars as much.


I've used it in my lotion bars experimentally, and while I like the way it feels, I found that my bars were used up significantly faster. I think I also put quite a lot more than what's normal, so I'll let someone else comment on how much to use!


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 23, 2021)

Thank you @Quanta 

I think I will just remelt and double the recipe for now ( thus making the fragrance load lower across the double batch).  I used 2% of a cosmetic grade Rose Geranium EO ( which is a very strong fragrance in my soap so i should have known better).  
On day three I'm much happier with it and it is not greasy at all.  I asked my sisters ( I have three) if they would like to test this batch but I warned them about the strong fragrance and they all passed ( they all get migraines).  At least I know I have some testers lines up for the lesser-fragranced rebatch.

I noticed I can get 'Veewax' here which is a vegan mimic of beeswax.  I could try that in a future experiment perhaps?


----------



## Juggsy (Oct 25, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Thank you @Quanta
> 
> I think I will just remelt and double the recipe for now ( thus making the fragrance load lower across the double batch).  I used 2% of a cosmetic grade Rose Geranium EO ( which is a very strong fragrance in my soap so i should have known better).
> On day three I'm much happier with it and it is not greasy at all.  I asked my sisters ( I have three) if they would like to test this batch but I warned them about the strong fragrance and they all passed ( they all get migraines).  At least I know I have some testers lines up for the lesser-fragranced rebatch.
> ...





KiwiMoose said:


> I have arrowroot and tapioca flour here - in my pantry.  Would they be ok?
> I'm thinking I should re-melt the bars, add in the starch, double the recipe but not the fragrance. How much starch would I use?
> My current usage of fragrance is 2%, and by doubling the recipe it would reduce it to 1%.


If fragrance oil you could get away with 1% with no issues. yes, arrowroot, tapioca, cornstarch, potato starch from the pantry cupboard. 
I find tapioca less powdery does that make sense?




Quanta said:


> If they are too greasy, try replacing the Shea with something else like mango butter or babassu oil.


Illipe, tucuma, mango, babassu are my favourites. Although I am not a fan of greasiness, I have done the three ingredient Shea and IPM whipped butter and must admit that over winter (*cough cough*... autumn... *Cough cough*) I found it good after the shower on damp skin. 



Quanta said:


> I use 1% for most of the FOs that I use, less for a particularly strong FO and even less for EOs. I would only use 2% of an FO that was particularly weak or previously diluted, and never more than 1% of any EO.


 even at 1% it can cause irritation in leave on products. Just be aware of that. Also FOs with vallinin may discolour.



Quanta said:


> I agree. I especially like esters. I use isopropyl myristate in mine at about 5%.


I do like IPM in certain things but do think there are some better ones. I just got my hands on two Guebert esters. I haven't played with them yet as every beaker is being used for a big  experiment on Myristyl Myristate. 



Quanta said:


> I have never tried tapioca starch, although I have tried both cornstarch and arrowroot and like the feel. What kind of tapioca starch do you use? I know there are different kinds but I don't really know what the differences are.


 Natrasorb is the other Tapioca used but it's not the same. They are totally different products. Natrasorb is able to absorb and carry large quantities of oils and anhydrous liquids (eg bath oils). 
They process the tapioca starch in a mechanical manner that creates unique pockets that can carry the oils essentially in a solid, powder form.  This means you are in effect adding "dry fragrance". Basically it's a fragrance carrier like polysorbates. It's also hydrophilic so that once the starch comes in contact with water, it immediately dissolves, releasing loaded oils, fragrances and/or emulsifiers, dispersing them. You only add a small amount. *More information here *

Tapioca is like arrowroot but I like both arrowroot and tapioca better than cornflour. It's not as powdery. 



Quanta said:


> I rarely use Shea in my lotions at all anymore due to its greasiness, and also its tendency to get grainy unless it's cooled exactly right. I've been using a blend of mango and babassu and it's really nice for those who prefer a less greasy lotion.


I tend to leave Shea for soap and rinse off products. It's cheaper than the butters Iike so adding it to rinse off  products does not bother me.



Quanta said:


> I've used it in my lotion bars experimentally, and while I like the way it feels, I found that my bars were used up significantly faster. I think I also put quite a lot more than what's normal, so I'll let someone else comment on how much to use!


 I find this too but some lotion bars need it.


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 28, 2021)

Right-o.  I've just remelted mine and made a bigger batch, thus reducing the fragrance load.  After using a sample from the original batch for a week I can say that it does work as a lotion bar, although I can't say that I'm sold on the idea of using a bar over a lotion (other than the advantage of reduction in plastics for recycling).
My original recipe was 45% soy wax, 30% Shea Butter, 10 CO, 10% Apricot Kernel, 4% Meadowfoam Oil with a titch of ROE and FO to make up the difference. 
I have decided that the soy wax is too draggy - and so for the remelt i have adjusted ratios, removing 5% from the soy wax and adding it to the AKO and Meadowfoam.
Any advice from more knowledgeable peeps on a) dragginess and how to reduce it and b) anything else you think I might want to try?


----------



## Juggsy (Oct 28, 2021)

Change your oils and butters and waxes. ..... something less greasy feeling like babassu oil will make a massive difference. Or try an ester - I love esters - they are freaking magic! Once you've started using them you won't look back - well you'll look back on the inferior products you made (speaking from experience). Cheap and easily assessible ones to start ....  isopropyl myristate (IPM) or C12-15 alkyl benzoate, both of which are silky. Light.
I also add dimethicone to mine because silicones really help with Drag. You can use like cetearyl alchohol etc. to. something like tucuma butter will help with dragginess and glide.... something like....  75%  tucuma butter 5% stearic acid 2% IPM  7% super light oil 1% dimethicone 8.75% mango butter then cool down 0.5 Vitamin E and 0.75 fragrance - there's been recent studies that show adding over 1% vitamin E can increase rancidity.  So the recommended amount has changed to "up to 1%" I've changed all my formulas to 0.5%

but if you go by the 33% rule ( 33 wax 33 butter 33 oil + 1 Vit E) - remember carnauba wax is 80% of that 33% and Candelilla wax is 50-60% (60 if using more oils and softer butters)


----------



## KiwiMoose (Oct 29, 2021)

Juggsy said:


> but if you go by the 33% rule ( 33 wax 33 butter 33 oil + 1 Vit E) - remember carnauba wax is 80% of that 33% and Candelilla wax is 50-60% (60 if using more oils and softer butters)


Not sure that i get what you mean by that - Carnauba wax is 80% of 33%?  If that is literally what you mean, then I understand it as I would add another 20% of the 33% of something else to make up the wax component. I prefer not to use carnauba wax as it is palm derived and I would prefer not to go down the road of adding anything too chemically if I can help it.  But I do have a truckload of cetyl alcohol here that will take me years to use up in my shampoo bars, so that's an option. I can get brassica alcohols.  I can get rice-bran wax and vee-wax.  Maybe I should try some of those?  I just thought I would try lotion bars out and I liked the sound of @Zing 's simple 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 but it's now starting to sound very complicated.  As i say, I don't know that I'm sold on the idea of a bar instead of a lotion anyways...


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## Juggsy (Oct 29, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Not sure that i get what you mean by that - Carnauba wax is 80% of 33%?  If that is literally what you mean, then I understand it as I would add another 20% of the 33% of something else to make up the wax component. I prefer not to use carnauba wax as it is palm derived and I would prefer not to go down the road of adding anything too chemically if I can help it.  But I do have a truckload of cetyl alcohol here that will take me years to use up in my shampoo bars, so that's an option. I can get brassica alcohols.  I can get rice-bran wax and vee-wax.  Maybe I should try some of those?  I just thought I would try lotion bars out and I liked the sound of @Zing 's simple 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 but it's now starting to sound very complicated.  As i say, I don't know that I'm sold on the idea of a bar instead of a lotion anyways...


Sorry, if I made it seem complicated. It's not once you understand the parts (does that make sense), it's kind of like finding the soap you like. It's really a personal choice.

I like experimenting though....

But..
The one third rule is correct.  And, so yes:  80% of 33% (so what 26.6?) And candelilla would be something like 18-20%

33% rule will work with beeswax and it's most subs. But some substitutes need more, some need less.

I honestly didn't mean to confuse you, sometimes I forget that too much information is overwhelming.
It is isn't a complicated thing at all.

I don't like soy wax in my LB formulas but have got fair trade organic carnuaba wax and candelilla wax in my store. Love both of them.
I do believe that ecosystems need to be protected and sustainability is most important. I too have issues with palm tree production but carnuaba palms unlike other palms, the whole palm gets used. It's often referred to the tree of life in Brazil as they even use the seeds for coffee like stuff. I know the one I get comes with certification. I absolutely agree palm oil production isn't great (try to avoid or choose responsibly) but nor is soy or several other industries. I just try to get ones that are RSPO and fairtrade. I figure I'm doing my part. We can only do what we can. 

I do think mango, babassu, tucuma, illipe are better than Shea and Cocoa Butters but that's obviously a personal opinion. I do find that Shea seems to be draggy.

If you cannot bring yourself to do them and you have cetearyl alcohol you can make a very basic cream - if you use a stainless steel container you can send to get properly sterilised or you can do it yourself if you just are using yourself. Or glass bottles 

If you wanted to stick with soy, I would maybe reduce it and add a butter like illipe and a couple of light oils. If reducing soy wax to 33 keep your butters at 33 and oil 33 - add your ROE and fragrance.  Change your shea as your oils all seem quite light. 

Let me know if I've just confused you more.


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## DMack (Oct 29, 2021)

Zing said:


> @Angie Gail I'm an evangelist for making lotion bars and have tried many recipes.  The super cool thing is that experimenting is so easy and the results are nearly instantaneous -- unlike making soap!  I've made a batch of lotion bars, wanted it "harder" so re-melted and added more beeswax, and vice-versa wanting it softer and adding more oil.
> 
> My basic recipe is 1/3 each of beeswax, shea or cocoa butter, coconut oil, scented with an essential oil at 1% of oil weight (or check on eocalc.com).  From that theme are many variations.  For example, in place of coconut oil I've subbed any combination of sweet almond oil, jojoba oil, meadowfoam seed oil, etc.
> 
> Have fun with it and keep us posted!


I used your recipe @Zing and can attest to how nice it feels. A little also goes a very long way. I used too much initially and didn’t like it as too greasy but once I used less it felt better and absorbed more easily. Thanks Zing


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