# First Liquid Soap - All the disparity has me confused!



## Meena (Feb 18, 2019)

I have wanted to make LS for about 3 weeks now, and would like to get this done today.  I have a VERY small window of time left (about 4 hours) to do it today, though, and realized that I am "hopelessly mired" in all the conflicting information I've read.

Here's a small sample, in the interests of time:

~ Cooking takes 1/2 hour to Lawrence Welk stage vs. cooking takes 3 - 4 hours.
~ Add glycerin to lye water vs. use glycerin in dilution phase
~ Cook on high heat the whole time vs. instructions which say "temp will drop, then a bit later, start to rise" which sounds like the crock pot has been turned off.

I also don't have anything in my notes about whether to use 'lye concentration' (and which %?) or "full water" like other HP, and not seeing it in the recipes/instructions I've looked at today.  However, I cranked the numbers on one recipe and it came to 33.3333% lye concentration.  Not sure if that was a fluke or if I can use 33% because another, may have been @IrishLass 's recipe, cranked to 25.018%.

I really want to do this today, but I'm starting to lose hope. 

ETA:  OK, thanks, ladies and gents, but I guess I'm gonna have to handle this myself.
On my way!  Will let you know how it turns out.


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## IrishLass (Feb 18, 2019)

Hey Meena- didn't see this until just now, but when making liquid soap, it's best to use a 25% lye concentration (3 water to 1 part lye).


IrishLass


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## Meena (Feb 18, 2019)

IrishLass said:


> Hey Meena- didn't see this until just now, but when making liquid soap, it's best to use a 25% lye concentration (3 water to 1 part lye).
> IrishLass


 
Yes, searched Google which led to a lot of posts here, and while my soap has been cooking I've been reading.  Saw where you had said 25%, and also where you said, "I would add it back in later during dilution, but since DeeAnna reported she had diminished lather by adding the glycerin later at dilution, I'm hoping that adding it up front would help prevent that. "  After about 1.75 hours of cooking, I added about 3 more oz of distilled water (room temp) very slowly while stirring to reduce the lye concentration.

My LS appears to be working, so far.  Looks a lot like vaseline but has not hit taffy stage yet.  I've been stirring it every 30 minutes since around 7:25.  Took about 55 minutes to come to a stable trace.  Before that, I was getting an oil layer on top after 5 minutes of sitting, after I thought I had gotten trace.  So yeah, a bit tricky!!

Before it went to stable trace, it went to thick pudding with some floating oil, which I thought was Really Bizarre, to say the least!!  Never experienced anything like that with CP or HP for bar soap.  But, this is my first rodeo with KOH.  

I saw where someone left her LS to cook overnight in a crockpot on low, and said it did not burn.  Not sure I'm brave enough for that.  If it isn't 'taffy' by bed time in the next 1.75 hours approximately, I'll turn off the crock pot and let it sit overnight.

I got confused over seeing someone adding glycerin to the dilution phase and ended up omitting the glycerin at the front end because, 1) I forgot about your tutorial , and 2) no other tutorials I saw tonight did this.

I just became impatient with myself for stalling on this LS for 3 or 4 weeks, and now we are very low on store-bought LS at home.  I decided to just bite the bullet and give it my best shot.

Thanks so much for your reply, as always.  You are Super helpful, generous, and kind!

ETA:  Just stirred and for the heck of it, zap tested -- and it's neutral.  Now I'm even more confused. It needs to cook to taffy, right?  Or do I turn of the heat now and just let it sit overnight?

ETA: OK, my dear @IrishLass -- just saw where you said this in May 2017

"Can you describe to us what it looks like? I ask because I personally never cook my soap to the paste stage. It proceeds to that stage just fine without any help from me in the form of added heat.

"I can describe what normal paste should look like, though. It should be a softish/semi firm solid, much like taffy chews."

   --- AND ---

"Although certain books and videos instruct one to cook the batter to the paste stage, in all actuality it does not need to be cooked at all. Several liquid soap-makers here on the forum besides myself (such as our Susie) never cook our liquid soap batter and our soaps come out perfectly fine."

Does the no-cook method only apply if glycerin was used in the first step?  Because you also said:
"Well, first thing- one of the really cool things about the glycerin method is that you don't actually need to cook it to the paste stage. I never cook mine and it saponifies to the paste stage all on its own just fine between 1 to 6 hours (depending on the formula). "

 This is Also VERY confusing because I saw a post where someone was told that even 1.5 hours was Not Enough to cook LS. ???

ETA:  Found the post by @FGOriold  "1.5 hours is definitely not long enough to cook liquid soap paste. "


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## KristaY (Feb 18, 2019)

Hi Meena! If your paste didn't zap you, it's all good! Don't worry about taffy, flying bubbles or anything else. It's the zap that counts. I've made countless batches of LS and all seem to behave differently. So just let it be and all will be well.

From here, it's more a trial and error since I NEVER get the exact same dilution with each batch (even when using the same paste). To dilute you'll want to start with approx 50% water to paste wt. (depending on your recipe). You can either turn the heat on to speed things up or let it sit overnight so you don't have to worry about scorching it. Do you want to dilute all of it at once or just a portion?


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## Meena (Feb 18, 2019)

KristaY said:


> Hi Meena! If your paste didn't zap you, it's all good! Don't worry about taffy, flying bubbles or anything else. It's the zap that counts. I've made countless batches of LS and all seem to behave differently. So just let it be and all will be well.
> 
> From here, it's more a trial and error since I NEVER get the exact same dilution with each batch (even when using the same paste). To dilute you'll want to start with approx 50% water to paste wt. (depending on your recipe). You can either turn the heat on to speed things up or let it sit overnight so you don't have to worry about scorching it. Do you want to dilute all of it at once or just a portion?



Hello, Krista!  Thanks for replying.   I just want to dilute a portion, and keep the rest of the paste refrigerated.  However, it's not paste right now. 

How do I get this NOT-glycerin method soap to go from interminable vaseline stage to paste/taffy?
Just keep cooking longer?  Or will it be paste/taffy in the morning without added heat?

I'll stay up if I have to, so I don't waste my ingredients;  but if it will finish by itself, sleeping is preferable. 

ETA:  This is what it looks like now, after about 3 hours cooking.


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## KristaY (Feb 18, 2019)

If the zap is negative, you're all good! I suggest putting the lid on, turning off the heat and going to bed. I think it looks great right now (like many of my batches have looked). By morning it'll be a thick paste so you can measure off what you want to dilute and put the rest in the fridge. Well done Meena!


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## Meena (Feb 19, 2019)

Thanks so much for giving me the warm fuzzies I needed!    Putting the LS and myself to bed!

Thank you!


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## KristaY (Feb 19, 2019)

Good luck with the dilution Meena! This part will take a bit of time and experimentation but if you start in the morning you MIGHT have it done by dinner time, lol. I only say that because I usually dilute at RT and look in on it when I have time so it usually takes me a couple of days. But since I'm not usually in a hurry, I don't stress about it. I just put a batch of pine tar on to dilute and might have it ready by Thursday if my hubby's lucky, haha.


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## Meena (Feb 19, 2019)

Luckily, we have about a week's worth of store-bought left, so I'll definitely be using the no-stress dilution method!  Can't remember who said it about diluting LS, but "Time is your friend."


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## KristaY (Feb 19, 2019)

It definitely is! Keep good notes on it as you're adding the water. It'll help with a starting point when you dilute the next batch of paste. It certainly won't be exact but it will help speed things up a bit. The other thing I do is weigh my crock pot with and without the lid prior to dilution (or whatever container you're using). I end up losing a good amount of water to evaporation when I'm diluting so knowing the weight before starting will help with accuracy.


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## IrishLass (Feb 19, 2019)

Hi Meena- ditto all that Krista said!

There is lots of confusing info out there regarding liquid soap...some say to cook it for x amount of hours, some say it doesn't need to be cooked, etc.... A lot of the folks that instruct one to cook it got their info from Catherine Failor's method, who was a pioneer in handmade liquid soapmaking, but we've come a long way since her book first came out.....the discovery that you actually don't have to cook it for the liquid soap to come out good didn't gain any feet until later on, after her cooking method had become so ingrained among the masses as being set in stone as the only way to do it. So don't be surprised if you run into many posts or blogs that instruct to cook it. The truth of the matter is that you don't have to cook it for it to come out good.

Re: the paste. Don't be overly concerned about the consistency of your paste. Like Krista said, if it doesn't zap, that's your best clue that all is well. Go by that instead of the type of thickness of the paste. When I make my GLS via the pharmacists's method of dissolving the KOH in hot glycerin, my paste always comes out to a translucent amber-colored taffy that's very thick and gummy/sticky, but when I make the same recipe via dissolving my KOH in an equal amount of water before adding my glycerin to it, my paste turns out to a much different consistency and color....... instead of thick sticky/gummy amber colored taffy, it's definitely much softer and it's an opaque yellow-  looks much like a bowl of vanilla pudding looks.


IrishLass


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## lenarenee (Feb 19, 2019)

What recipe did you use Meena?  The one in the thread with mostly olive oil?  If so - I really think you are going to love it - golden goodness!!

Not to defy Krista (and welcome back Krista - haven't seen you in a long time!), but I found having one specific dilution rate for each batch doesn't work for me.  I just dilute by eye and find the thickness I want - BUT then add a touch more water because hot soap is thicker than cool soap. 

I've also been successful at adding adding more water after the diluted soap was in its bottle and I still found it too thick!

You'll find what works for you! But I just love that liquid soap recipe and haven't tried any other!  I also desperately need to make more when our house isn't being held hostage any more.


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## Susie (Feb 19, 2019)

Meena, once you need to make more soap, ask for help first.  We can seriously help save you a ton of time and trouble.  No cooking, no fretting stages.  Just SB to emulsion, slap a lid on it and walk away.  Check in half an hour or whenever convenient, and if it is any kind of paste consistency, zap test and dilute.  Seriously.


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## DeeAnna (Feb 19, 2019)

I don't have any better words of wisdom than what have already been said. I'm sorry we didn't give you the help you wanted when you wanted it. 

There is a lot of confusing stuff out there to confuse beginners, but things get a lot easier once you get a batch or three under your belt. 

Welcome to the club!


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## Meena (Feb 19, 2019)

@DeeAnna @IrishLass @lenarenee @KristaY @Susie
Thank you SO much, ladies!!  I've taken note of what you all said here.
@Susie - I tried waiting, but I was running out of time and so my independent streak kicked in --
just like a beginner!

Alright, so this is Really interesting:  Dilution takes hours?  Mine took *10 minutes*, stirring and smashing with the back of a stainless steel serving spoon!  That kind of makes up for the 3 hours cooking, right? 

Probably diluted so easily because I didn't get a hard jelly substance, it was gooey like chewed soft taffy? Now I see from your replies that that's also within normal results.  I did the rest from memory, [LOL, what memory? Oh that's the Concussion thread, right?]  ... because I got into an impatient mood when I saw that my soap paste was still Exactly as I left it last night and this morning:  soft (not realizing that was okay).

I started with 6.90 ounces of paste (the amount left over after jarring the rest) and 7.60 ounces of boiled distilled water.  Didn't look like enough water after stirring for a few minutes, so over the course of the next 10 minutes, I brought the total water quantity to 11.70 ounces hot water.  I added 0.25 ounces of 20 Mule Team Borax and 1 tsp. iodized salt and stirred it all up well.  I think I was not supposed to use iodized salt, but at the time I thought I wanted iodine in the soap for reasons only my twisted brain understands, bwaahahaa.  I'll tell you if you really want to know. Maybe.

My soap is creamy, white, and lovely!  [No, I was Not after clear soap!!  I don't know what that infatuation is.]  The Stearic acid was supposed to make it pearly, but it seems simply white.  That's fine with me.
BTW-- it feels wonderful!

@lenarenee , the recipe was something I made up that, at first, was loosely based off @dixiedragon 's winter recipe. I wanted a mild soap because I wash my hands dozens of times a day, yet with some cleansing for SO's sake. Cleansing = 8. Recipe was 23.95 oz oils, SF 1%

(Note: % numbers are weird because @Zany_in_CO taught me to adjust the ounces to 'nice numbers' after my recipe was in SoapCalc by percentages. That's why 23.95 ounces of oils! )

Safflower 25.05%  (6 oz)
Castor 12.53%  (3 oz)
Coconut 12.53% (3 oz)
Olive 20.04% (4.8 oz)
Sunflower 29.23% (7 oz)
Stearic acid 0.63% (0.15 oz maybe- I think the final was a bit different)
Initial water  10.9 oz, then added 3-4 oz at about 1.75 or 2 hours, then later another 2-ish oz.  (I never measure my adds, bad girl!)
KOH 4.65 oz

It's thickening as it sits, now (that's what the salt was for).  I just added another 2.2 oz so total for 6.90 oz paste was 13.9 oz water.

The pic is a bit blurry because I wanted an action shot, so, one-handed.  
There are a few tiny paste bits visible in the pic, but they are gone now.

What do you all think? Beginner's luck?  How many mistakes did I make?  Anything I should change?






ETA: Haha, thought I defied the Law of Gravity, but after an hour or so, I have the classic separation -- clear bottom with foamy head.  My nice white soap was not meant to stay creamy white, and I'll have a tan colored soap when the foam head absorbs into the rest of it.  Probably another 24 - 36 hours, I'm estimating.


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## Susie (Feb 20, 2019)

1.  What was your superfat?  If it was anything in the positive range, you did not need to use Borax to neutralize.
2.  Way too much water.  Impatience or not.
3.  Salt may help thicken some soaps, but it kills the lather on all soaps.  Learn to not use so much water, and a naturally thicker recipe. Try IrishLass' recipe (post #8) in this thread:  https://www.soapmakingforum.com/thr...id-soapmaking-video.46114/page-41#post-743733
4.  Yes, softer paste gives you faster dilution.  It is why I dilute while my paste is still warm and pliable most times.


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## Meena (Feb 20, 2019)

Hi, @Susie!  I had a 1% superfat.  Good to know that I don't need the Borax.  Part of the 'conflicting information' I complained about.  When you say too much water, I assume you mean the dilution water?  Yes, next time I'll try @IrishLass 's ... which I already bought the glycerin for.

You shot me down on #4 though:  I thought I was a magician!  

Appreciate your input very much -- always nice to hear from you!


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## KristaY (Feb 20, 2019)

I think it looks great Meena! Could you tweak some things? Sure. But I think you need to use it and see how you like it. Do you want more/less cleansing? Do you want something gentler? Do you want more/less bubbles? It's all in the eye of the soap user. Remember when I said I had just put a batch of PT LS on to dilute Monday night? So I went to bed then got called in to work at 3 AM, slept from noon to 3 PM, got called in again at midnight, and on it went..... So here I am on Wed night and remembered it was sitting there! I just went in to stir it and it's perfect. Now I'll warm it a bit (since it's 63 degrees in the house) and add 3% tea tree EO (total diluted soap weight). Hopefully I'll get a chance to check it tomorrow unless I get called in to work AGAIN.... The point is, when I dilute LS, I take whatever time I or the soap have to get it done.


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## Meena (Feb 21, 2019)

Thanks, Krista!  Your schedule sounds like you are a nurse. ..  I couldn't imagine going to work at 3 a.m. God bless you !

SO raved about the soap yesterday, and it's gentle on my hands,  so I think so far it's a win.   I have that childish sense of wonder and joy to use one more thing that I made myself.   It was worth all of the 4 hours!


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## DeeAnna (Feb 21, 2019)

I suspect the stearic acid in your recipe is causing the white look and the separation, assuming the superfat isn't overly high. I'm not sure why you added that unless you're making Irish Lass' Cocoa-shea recipe? If so, I know she also adds Polysorbate and that would keep the stearic soap emulsified. It isn't just stearic acid -- fats high in stearic and palmitic acids, such as lard or the butters, will also create a white soap that is likely to separate without the use of additional emulsifier (polysorbate).

If you hadn't included the stearic, everything else in your recipe should make a clear soap as long as the superfat isn't overly high.


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## Meena (Feb 21, 2019)

Hi DeeAnna! ~ I just had a funny thought about how to describe not getting all the ins-and-outs of LS worked out in my brain:  the LS instructions didn't gel.  Talk about not getting gel, lol!
Ok, I'm not so funny after a day at work.  

I had been stymied over the making of this, and was frustrated with myself because I didn't know why.  (Maybe it was subconscious recognition that I hadn't achieved the 'gel' I spoke of above.)

Someone said stearic acid would make the LS 'pearly' and, honestly, I forget if there was something else it was supposed to bring to the party.  Instructions I was following said to soap hot to keep the stearic acid dissolved (ETA: er, melted) - not less than 160F. Now that the foamy head has absorbed back into the soap (which I believe you're supposed to do BEFORE bottling ), I think it came out fine.  (pic attached)  You can see the remnants of the foam still clinging to the bottle in the upper fourth.

I probably just got a little ahead of myself because it was late and I needed to finish up and clean up.  Plus some excitement. 

My SF was 1%.  When I saw the crock full of creamy white that's in one of the pics posted a couple days ago, I simply didn't realize that I was looking at soap foam; but once it started settling, I remembered reading about that stage.

I purchased the SA and liquid glycerin because initially I WAS going to make Irish's recipe.  Don't ask me what happened at the last minute!!  I just grabbed my rear end and jumped. (I don't think young ones know this expression anymore.  The original version has the expletive instead of rear end. )  [Edited to replace fanny, which is apparently More naughty in the southern hemisphere!]

Thanks so much for your input.  It's always very desired and welcomed!


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## Susie (Feb 22, 2019)

Try spraying some rubbing alcohol down in that bottle.  If it is foam, you will know rapidly.  I fear you may have over neutralized your soap, though.  But, no matter what it is, don't throw it away, we can fix it.


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## Meena (Feb 23, 2019)

Hi @Susie -- How will I know if I over-neutralized it?

Fortunately, I still have a 32 oz jar of unadulterated soap paste in the refrigerator, and what I diluted was just 6.9 ounces -- but I still would like to know the signs of over-neutralization, if it's not too much trouble. 


The stuff on the bathroom counter still looks just like the picture except the clingy foam bits are gone now.

I appreciate you all! <3


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## Susie (Feb 23, 2019)

If your soap separates, you over neutralized.  Your recipe, having a positive superfat, does not require Borax to neutralize.


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## Meena (Feb 23, 2019)

Susie said:


> If your soap separates, you over neutralized.  Your recipe, having a positive superfat, does not require Borax to neutralize.



Got it, thanks a lot Susie!


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## Meena (Feb 23, 2019)

DeeAnna said:


> I suspect the stearic acid in your recipe is causing the white look and the separation, assuming the superfat isn't overly high. -- fats high in stearic and palmitic acids, such as lard or the butters, will also create a white soap that is likely to separate without the use of additional emulsifier (polysorbate).



Just to be clear -- because you and Susie both mentioned separation -- my LS didn't separate in the sense of oil separating from water.  After 4 days in the bottle, it's fine -- a nice, translucent, light tan color and fully-homogenized.  The separation I meant was into the two layers that are normal and expected near the end stage of dilution, the foam head on the soap body.  Then, the 'head' absorbs back into the soap after two or three days of sitting.  You get that in your LS too, right?

I probably had all that creamy whiteness from stirring to incorporate the Borax and salt.
I'll dilute the next amount of paste with just boiled distilled water.


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## Chris_S (Feb 23, 2019)

Meena said:


> I have wanted to make LS for about 3 weeks now, and would like to get this done today.  I have a VERY small window of time left (about 4 hours) to do it today, though, and realized that I am "hopelessly mired" in all the conflicting information I've read.
> 
> Here's a small sample, in the interests of time:
> 
> ...



I will read the rest in a minute but i read the first paragragh and just wanted to say sqqqqquueeeeeeeeze!


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## Susie (Feb 24, 2019)

I spray my liquid soap down with rubbing alcohol to kill the foam, as I stick blend towards the end of dilution.  I am not a patient person.


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