# Sacrifice longevity/hardness for design



## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 24, 2021)

I tried to have the best of both worlds today and it was an epic fail. Wanted to try some divider swirl that used 6 different colors. Not sure if it was the FO or my recipe but it reached thick trace before I could do anything. Wondering if this recipe had no chance for an intricate design or if it was purely the FO. I tend to think I did too many things that contributed to the fast trace. Do people knowingly sacrifice longevity and hardness of their bar to be able to make designs and use a recipe high in liquid/soft oil? Here is as much info as possible.

800g of oil
30% Palm
20% Avocado
20% Coconut Oil
15% Cocoa Butter
10% Shea Butter
5% Castor Oil
33% Lye Concentration
Anchored 56g of FO in 1 TBS of Bentonite Clay
Tussah Silk to Lye solution
1 tsp sugar dissolved in my liquid which was Aloe Vera Juice. Replaced all distilled water with the Aloe Vera Juice.
1.5 tsp Sodium Lactate to cooled lye solution
1/4 tsp ROE to oils
Added the FO bentonite mixture to oils before adding lye solution.
Both the oils and lye solution were around 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit. Thanks in advance for any input. I managed to get it into the mold. I think it will be a great bar of soap albeit an ugly one.


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## glendam (Jan 24, 2021)

when I tried the Taiwan swirl technique, I did have to sacrifice longevity for design, I think I increased my fluid oils to 40% from 30%.  In your recipe, 20-25% of fluid oils seem low for an intricate swirls technique.  However, when I tried the ghost swirl technique, I learned that my regular recipe stays fluid longer if I use 40% lye to water concentration instead of 33%, provided that the fragrance is a slow mover.   Very few fragrances decelerate trace or not affect it.  Usually citrus types do well.  I try to read the descriptions and reviews to see if a FO decelerates.

whenever I used bentonite my soap batter thickens, and I have heard the same about sugar.  I also avoid sodium lactate for intricate swirls.


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 24, 2021)

glendam said:


> when I tried the Taiwan swirl technique, I did have to sacrifice longevity for design, I think I increased my fluid oils to 40% from 30%.  In your recipe, 20-25% of fluid oils seem low for an intricate swirls technique.  However, when I tried the ghost swirl technique, I learned that my regular recipe stays fluid longer if I use 40% lye to water concentration instead of 33%, provided that the fragrance is a slow mover.   Very few fragrances decelerate trace or not affect it.  Usually citrus types do well.  I try to read the descriptions and reviews to see if a FO decelerates.
> 
> whenever I used bentonite my soap batter thickens, and I have heard the same about sugar.  I also avoid sodium lactate for intricate swirls.


Thanks a lot for the feedback. The FO was something I had never used before and from a company I never used before. It was called Celestial Sea from a company named New York Scent. I think it was just a perfect storm of all things that should not have been done if I was looking to do an intricate swirl. I definitely want to try the 40% lye concentration for my next couple of batches. Thanks again.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 25, 2021)

Yes I've been known to sacrifice hardness/longevity for design.  However - that recipe you're using is asking for trouble isn't it? Palm, CO, and cocoa butter all in substantial amounts, plus castor. How about trying some OO?


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## Arimara (Jan 25, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> Thanks a lot for the feedback. The FO was something I had never used before and from a company I never used before. It was called Celestial Sea from a company named New York Scent. I think it was just a perfect storm of all things that should not have been done if I was looking to do an intricate swirl. I definitely want to try the 40% lye concentration for my next couple of batches. Thanks again.


How fast is that company's shipping for you?


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## Arimara (Jan 25, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Yes I've been known to sacrifice hardness/longevity for design.  However - that recipe you're using is asking for trouble isn't it? Palm, CO, and cocoa butter all in substantial amounts, plus castor. How about trying some OO?


The palm is fine. The butters would be the bigger issue. The recipe would benefit with more liquid oils. I only say this cause I'm about 30-45 minutes from OP on a decent day.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 25, 2021)

Arimara said:


> I only say this cause I'm about 30-45 minutes from OP on a decent day.


Sorry - unsure of what you mean here.


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## Arimara (Jan 25, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Sorry - unsure of what you mean here.


I mean that I'm really close to where OP lives so the most same conditions I deal with when soaping can be a concern for OP as well. In terms of palm oil, it tends to behave itself very well. I was also referring to a local NYC/ Long Island fact when it comes to travel- on good days with little to no traffic, it could take me (as a driver) about 30-45 to reach their neck of the woods (speed limits are much slower in this area versus other areas of the state, let alone region).


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## GemstonePony (Jan 25, 2021)

Swap 10% from cocoa butter to avocado oil, and it'll be nearly identical to my earliest bars. I actually need to make more, and was planning to try a Taiwan swirl in at least 4 colors. It's a lovely recipe. It also makes nice soap dough, should you be interested in that.


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 25, 2021)

KiwiMoose said:


> Yes I've been known to sacrifice hardness/longevity for design.  However - that recipe you're using is asking for trouble isn't it? Palm, CO, and cocoa butter all in substantial amounts, plus castor. How about trying some OO?


I totally agree. Asking for trouble is a perfect way to put it. Funny thing is that this is the first time I didn’t use Olive Oil Pomace in my recipe. I was messing around and all the numbers looked great for this recipe but I should have known better than to think it would stay fluid enough for what I was trying.


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## TheGecko (Jan 25, 2021)

Your recipe is 75% Hard Oils...no way you're going to be able to do a 6-color design unless you are doing layers and dividing and mixing each layer separately. And convention for clay is 1 teaspoon PPO and you were double that...clay absorbs water, even if dispersed with FO.

When using an FO for the first time, ALWAYS do a test batch first so you know how it is going to work with your recipe.

I am fortunate that my recipe with its 60% Hard Oils gives me lots of 'play time if I want it.  But I don't think you have to sacrifice anything...I think you just need to cure longer.


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 25, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> Your recipe is 75% Hard Oils...no way you're going to be able to do a 6-color design unless you are doing layers and dividing and mixing each layer separately. And convention for clay is 1 teaspoon PPO and you were double that...clay absorbs water, even if dispersed with FO.
> 
> When using an FO for the first time, ALWAYS do a test batch first so you know how it is going to work with your recipe.
> 
> I am fortunate that my recipe with its 60% Hard Oils gives me lots of 'play time if I want it.  But I don't think you have to sacrifice anything...I think you just need to cure longer.


Yea. I was guilty of not being well thought out on this occasion. Luckily it was only 2.5lbs of soap and I do not sell so I will have 8 bars of an ugly soap that I can chalk up to a good learning experience.


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## glendam (Jan 25, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> Thanks a lot for the feedback. The FO was something I had never used before and from a company I never used before. It was called Celestial Sea from a company named New York Scent. I think it was just a perfect storm of all things that should not have been done if I was looking to do an intricate swirl. I definitely want to try the 40% lye concentration for my next couple of batches. Thanks again.


Most ocean fragrances do accelerate, and badly! I hope your next attempt is more successful!


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## dibbles (Jan 25, 2021)

When I want a lot of time, I use lard at 40%, so if you aren't opposed to animal fats, that is an option. I think all hard fats move more quickly than lard and the combination of palm and the butters at 55% is probably contributing to the problem. I agree that using more liquid oils will help. Do you not like olive oil for some reason? That could be a good replacement for some of the hard fats in your recipe.

In my experience @glendam is correct that a 40% lye concentration will trace more slowly, but you have to be absolutely sure that your FO will not accelerate even one tiny little bit. And sometimes acceleration you didn't necessarily notice with your normal LC will be magnified at 40%. I use sodium lactate and sugar in most of my batches and don't ever have issues from either one. Leave out the bentonite clay.


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 25, 2021)

dibbles said:


> When I want a lot of time, I use lard at 40%, so if you aren't opposed to animal fats, that is an option. I think all hard fats move more quickly than lard and the combination of palm and the butters at 55% is probably contributing to the problem. I agree that using more liquid oils will help. Do you not like olive oil for some reason? That could be a good replacement for some of the hard fats in your recipe.
> 
> In my experience @glendam is correct that a 40% lye concentration will trace more slowly, but you have to be absolutely that your FO will not accelerate even one tiny little bit. And sometimes acceleration you didn't necessarily notice with your normal LC will be magnified at 40%. I use sodium lactate and sugar in most of my batches and don't ever have issues from either one. Leave out the bentonite clay.


To be honest I have not considered using lard yet. No real reason. As for the olive oil, this instance was the only time I have not used olive oil in a recipe. As a new soapmaker I find myself doing things just because I read about them, that was the reason for the bentonite clay. Read somewhere that it helps anchor the scent. I need to start making better decisions on my own and not just do things by rote because I read it somewhere. Sometimes a fail like this can actually be a positive in the long run. Thanks for the advice.


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## dibbles (Jan 25, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> To be honest I have not considered using lard yet. No real reason. As for the olive oil, this instance was the only time I have not used olive oil in a recipe. As a new soapmaker I find myself doing things just because I read about them, that was the reason for the bentonite clay. Read somewhere that it helps anchor the scent. I need to start making better decisions on my own and not just do things by rote because I read it somewhere. Sometimes a fail like this can actually be a positive in the long run. Thanks for the advice.


Then I would really encourage you to try lard - it can be a game changer in terms of working time. It also makes a lovely bar of soap IMO. It can be easy to doubt your choices for what is going into your soap recipe. It doesn't hurt to try things you read about, but trust what you learn about the soap you make in regard to what you like.


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## Virgogoddess (Jan 25, 2021)

Katie Carson has her recipe available online and it’s perfect for an intricate design. It’s 40% olive oil. That’s the recipe I use when I have 6 colors.


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 25, 2021)

Virgogoddess said:


> Katie Carson has her recipe available online and it’s perfect for an intricate design. It’s 40% olive oil. That’s the recipe I use when I have 6 colors.


Cool. Thanks for sharing. Love Katie Carson. I actually think I have this saved somewhere on my Soap Making Friend recipe list. Not sure why I have not tried it yet.


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 25, 2021)

Virgogoddess said:


> Katie Carson has her recipe available online and it’s perfect for an intricate design. It’s 40% olive oil. That’s the recipe I use when I have 6 colors.


I actually just ran that recipe through Soap Making Friend and this is exactly the point of my post and what I do not fully understand about recipe formulation. Obviously people that sell soap need to make them visually appealing in order to stand out from the crowd. I get that, but are they also purposely not concerned with longevity so their bars don't last that long so people buy more often? I think I am starting to realize that the artistic swirly design part of soapmaking may not be for me. I think my recipe is going to make a **** good bar of soap. My mistake as a newbie was not properly formulating it for what I was hoping to do. I am also probably obsessing too much about the recipe property numbers. I do not mind the fact that I failed miserably in the design aspect. I am just trying to decide what kind of soapmaker I want to be. I watch a guy on You Tube named Uncle John and he is a no nonsense guy that is only concerned with formulating a good bar of soap. Since this is a hobby for me I do not know if I should be having fun and not obsess about the recipe properties. Sorry for thinking out loud.


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## hlee (Jan 25, 2021)

You should definately be having fun !
Try smaller batches so you don't get buried in soap.


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## violets2217 (Jan 25, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> You Tube named Uncle John


Love him and his "less is more" attitude! 

I also use Katie Carson's recipe... sorta... I tweaked it a bit because I love lard in my soaps and I'm not a fan of olive oil so I partially replace it with some canola (also less expensive). I have labeled it my "slow soap". It takes a bit of stick blending to get it to emulsion.  It does make a semi soft bar of soap, but I also use aloe (or coconut milk) for my water and kaolin clay for the feel. I've had a bar of it in my shower for about a month or more and it's lasted a while under my abuse! I'm an extreme lather-er! I also don't pay as much attention to the hardness scale and more cleansing and conditioning. Because that's what I want & well I have enough soap to last my family until probably the end of the next century!!!! 

Have fun and Good luck!


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## violets2217 (Jan 25, 2021)

So just out of curiosity, I entered my recipe in the calculator (It's in the Soapmakingfriend.com database if you wanna look at it) and played around with it and added harder oils and butters. The weird thing is the hardness of my bars increased but the longevity stayed the same. So now I'm on a mission to find out what qualities define a long life for soap bars!

Edited to add: if you search the database on Soapmakingfriend and just search for recipes with the longevity you want some interesting recipes come up. A lot of 100% lard recipes... or high CO and lard. Sorry now you have me obsessing!!


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## Virgogoddess (Jan 25, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> I actually just ran that recipe through Soap Making Friend and this is exactly the point of my post and what I do not fully understand about recipe formulation. Obviously people that sell soap need to make them visually appealing in order to stand out from the crowd. I get that, but are they also purposely not concerned with longevity so their bars don't last that long so people buy more often? I think I am starting to realize that the artistic swirly design part of soapmaking may not be for me. I think my recipe is going to make a **** good bar of soap. My mistake as a newbie was not properly formulating it for what I was hoping to do. I am also probably obsessing too much about the recipe property numbers. I do not mind the fact that I failed miserably in the design aspect. I am just trying to decide what kind of soapmaker I want to be. I watch a guy on You Tube named Uncle John and he is a no nonsense guy that is only concerned with formulating a good bar of soap. Since this is a hobby for me I do not know if I should be having fun and not obsess about the recipe properties. Sorry for thinking out loud.


.  

By longevity, do you mean hardness? Because I think some people want to make a conditioning/creamy soap. I personally make soaps that are way more soft than Katie’s recipe but I’m creating those for a particular group of people. I like harder bars for men. Also, if you’re selling it’s not a terrible thing if your bar doesn’t last forever!!


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 25, 2021)

Bear in mind that OO has good longevity if cured well.  SO don't let the numbers in the fatty acid profile put you off.  Same with RBO.  They  are both high in palmitic which adds to longevity.
Many people find that pomace accelerates trace though - so stick to regular OO (not need to use extra-virgin, just 'light' is ok, as long as it is 100% OO).


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## JoyfulSudz (Jan 25, 2021)

By the numbers, the longevity of my soaps are in the lower end of the range, yet I've received comments from several friends saying they want to get more soap (because they like a new fragrance of design I just made) but can't justify getting more because the ones they already have last so long they don't need any yet.  I guess longevity maybe is relative to expectation...


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## Arimara (Jan 25, 2021)

@SoapDaddy70 You should be having fun. for me part of the fun is coming up with different combinations. I have to be careful when making soap now since I'm more prone to misreading my recipes though than I was two years ago.


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## GemstonePony (Jan 25, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> I actually just ran that recipe through Soap Making Friend and this is exactly the point of my post and what I do not fully understand about recipe formulation. Obviously people that sell soap need to make them visually appealing in order to stand out from the crowd. I get that, but are they also purposely not concerned with longevity so their bars don't last that long so people buy more often? I think I am starting to realize that the artistic swirly design part of soapmaking may not be for me. I think my recipe is going to make a **** good bar of soap. My mistake as a newbie was not properly formulating it for what I was hoping to do. I am also probably obsessing too much about the recipe property numbers. I do not mind the fact that I failed miserably in the design aspect. I am just trying to decide what kind of soapmaker I want to be. I watch a guy on You Tube named Uncle John and he is a no nonsense guy that is only concerned with formulating a good bar of soap. Since this is a hobby for me I do not know if I should be having fun and not obsess about the recipe properties. Sorry for thinking out loud.


No need to apologise, as a fellow newbie the struggle is very real. Also a hobby, so I'm just interested in making the best soap I can,
but I also want it to be art because that's half the fun for me. When I started on the forum, somebody advised I focus on recipes first and play with colors and fragrances later. I haven't followed their advice because I don't want to, but I remember it every time I mismatch a new recipe and new design skill.


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## KiwiMoose (Jan 25, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> No need to apologise, as a fellow newbie the struggle is very real. Also a hobby, so I'm just interested in making the best soap I can,
> but I also want it to be art because that's half the fun for me. When I started on the forum, somebody advised I focus on recipes first and play with colors and fragrances later. I haven't followed their advice because I don't want to, but I remember it every time I mismatch a new recipe and new design skill.


I'm in it for the art too.  If i have to make my plain oatmeal soap for a customer i yawn all the way through it - boring!


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 25, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> No need to apologise, as a fellow newbie the struggle is very real. Also a hobby, so I'm just interested in making the best soap I can,
> but I also want it to be art because that's half the fun for me. When I started on the forum, somebody advised I focus on recipes first and play with colors and fragrances later. I haven't followed their advice because I don't want to, but I remember it every time I mismatch a new recipe and new design skill.


Thanks a lot. Makes me feel better knowing other people struggle with similar issues. It certainly is an interesting hobby with so many ups and downs and so much information to retain.


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## msunnerstood (Jan 25, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> I tried to have the best of both worlds today and it was an epic fail. Wanted to try some divider swirl that used 6 different colors. Not sure if it was the FO or my recipe but it reached thick trace before I could do anything. Wondering if this recipe had no chance for an intricate design or if it was purely the FO. I tend to think I did too many things that contributed to the fast trace. Do people knowingly sacrifice longevity and hardness of their bar to be able to make designs and use a recipe high in liquid/soft oil? Here is as much info as possible.
> 
> 800g of oil
> 30% Palm
> ...


Bentonite clay absorbs 3 times its weight in fluid. Try Kaolin Clay


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## Arimara (Jan 26, 2021)

msunnerstood said:


> Bentonite clay absorbs 3 times its weight in fluid. Try Kaolin Clay


I plum forgot that. But, I can't use that clay anyway- too strong.


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## Obsidian (Jan 26, 2021)

I think you are concentration on the numbers too much. They are a guide only, no hard and fast rules.
When you are determining longevity, how are you going about it?

Lard really can provide a recipe with good longevity and is slow to trace for intricate swirls.

I don't know if any mentioned but adding clay to a recipe already prone to tracing quickly can make it move faster.
Marine or sea scents are also know to accelerate, as are florals and spice


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 26, 2021)

Obsidian said:


> I think you are concentration on the numbers too much. They are a guide only, no hard and fast rules.
> When you are determining longevity, how are you going about it?
> 
> Lard really can provide a recipe with good longevity and is slow to trace for intricate swirls.
> ...


At least I crammed all these mistakes into one batch!! Since I am relatively new to making soap I am going purely off the numbers because I do not have enough actual bar testing under my belt to know what fats/oils actual help longevity and which do not. I have not used Lard yet but enough people in this one thread have made me realize I should at least try it out a couple of times. As for the clay I got sucked into the whole "clay helps anchor scents" but obviously I used too much (1 tablespoon). I had heard about floral scents accelerating trace but did not know marine or sea scents do as well. It was only a 2.5lb batch (8 bars) so no big deal and it actually came out ok. I cut the bars last night and they were not terrible. Will post a pic later tonight when I get home. Thanks for the feedback.


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## cmzaha (Jan 26, 2021)

If you would like a workable recipe using palm and not opposed to lard that will have longevity pm me. Sorry, I will not post my recipes publicly nor do I give up my recipes easily that I have spent years coming up with. but I will mention I would cut the cocoa butter out and not up the Avo oil.


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## AliOop (Jan 26, 2021)

@SoapDaddy70 I'd take Carolyn (cmzaha) up on that offer if I were you. Whatever she shares, you can take it to the bank. Maybe quite literally if you ever start selling.


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## CatahoulaBubble (Jan 26, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> I actually just ran that recipe through Soap Making Friend and this is exactly the point of my post and what I do not fully understand about recipe formulation. Obviously people that sell soap need to make them visually appealing in order to stand out from the crowd. I get that, but are they also purposely not concerned with longevity so their bars don't last that long so people buy more often? I think I am starting to realize that the artistic swirly design part of soapmaking may not be for me. I think my recipe is going to make a **** good bar of soap. My mistake as a newbie was not properly formulating it for what I was hoping to do. I am also probably obsessing too much about the recipe property numbers. I do not mind the fact that I failed miserably in the design aspect. I am just trying to decide what kind of soapmaker I want to be. I watch a guy on You Tube named Uncle John and he is a no nonsense guy that is only concerned with formulating a good bar of soap. Since this is a hobby for me I do not know if I should be having fun and not obsess about the recipe properties. Sorry for thinking out loud.


You can still make pretty bars but you have to work out what will work with your particular recipe. I'm starting to do more In the Pot designs because my recipe just doesn't do well with more intricate designs and I don't want to take the time to make up separate batches for each layer because it's a lot of work. I like my recipe because I like the way it performs and holds up but it's definitely never going to be used for a taiwan swirl. I just kind of roll with it because even if my design fails it's still soap and generally isn't that ugly looking.


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## cmzaha (Jan 26, 2021)

AliOop said:


> @SoapDaddy70 I'd take Carolyn (cmzaha) up on that offer if I were you. Whatever she shares, you can take it to the bank. Maybe quite literally if you ever start selling.


Wow, thank you for the compliment, Alison. I am going to get a big head.  
@CatahoulaBubble actually it is possible to get your cake and eat it too when it comes to soapmaking. I make a long-lasting bar that is a slow tracing soap batter, in fact, it can be too slow tracing when I am in a hurry. But I did not come up with it overnight.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jan 28, 2021)

While we're on the subject, a couple questions, please:

I experimented with a couple batches this week using recipes that I thought would be very slow moving (I was planning to do Secret Feather Swirls).  On one, the four portions of batter I colored with micas stayed fluid, but the larger portion with the TD got thick very fast.  Would white mica be a better plan if I'm wanting a slow-moving batter? 

Also, I'd love to hear your opinions and suggestions on the two recipes I used for these batches (one vegan, one lardy).   Both were done with 35% lye concentration.  I know the lowered water speeds things up, but it's been so very rainy and humid here I was compensating for our Oregon winter weather.  

#1: OO 43%
      Palm oil 22%
      CO  20%
      Avocado oil 10%
      Castor oil  5%

#2  Lard 48%
      OO  31%
      CO  16%
      Castor 5%

Thanks in advance!


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## AliOop (Jan 28, 2021)

TD definitely speeds up trace. White mica generally does not, but it's also not as white as TD. 

I actually soap with 40% lye concentration and find that it is actually slower than using 33-38% concentration. But not every soaper experiences that, so it's probably recipe dependent. I always have at least 50% lard (usually more), which is slow tracing any way.

I don't make vegan soaps so won't comment on recipe #1. 

I'm not a fan of high OO, but if you are, then your recipe #2 should be very nice for you. To suit my own preferences, I'd up the lard to 60%, and swap out the OO with a mix of any two of these soft oils: HO sunflower oil, RBO, avocado, or sweet almond.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jan 28, 2021)

AliOop said:


> TD definitely speeds up trace. White mica generally does not, but it's also not as white as TD.
> 
> I actually soap with 40% lye concentration and find that it is actually slower than using 33-38% concentration. But not every soaper experiences that, so it's probably recipe dependent. I always have at least 50% lard (usually more), which is slow tracing any way.
> 
> ...


Good to know about not having problems with the higher lye concentration. PNW winter weather provides enough "extra" water!

I do love the snowy white I can get with TD, but it definitely comes with problems.  Perhaps white mica is white enough in a high lard recipe.  I generally prefer my high lard soaps, but I know several people who won't use lard so I try to make both kinds.  I often test a bar without knowing which recipe it is, and then check the recipe after I have an opinion.  It's almost always a lard bar I like best (though that will never convince my vegan friends)!  

Thank you for your suggestions on the lard bar.  I used to use RBO until I ran out, and I have been debating whether to get more.  I will, and I will try your recipe soon.


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## GemstonePony (Jan 28, 2021)

JoyfulSudz said:


> Good to know about not having problems with the higher lye concentration. PNW winter weather provides enough "extra" water!
> 
> I do love the snowy white I can get with TD, but it definitely comes with problems.  Perhaps white mica is white enough in a high lard recipe.  I generally prefer my high lard soaps, but I know several people who won't use lard so I try to make both kinds.  I often test a bar without knowing which recipe it is, and then check the recipe after I have an opinion.  It's almost always a lard bar I like best (though that will never convince my vegan friends)!
> 
> Thank you for your suggestions on the lard bar.  I used to use RBO until I ran out, and I have been debating whether to get more.  I will, and I will try your recipe soon.


Regarding recipe #1, OO tracing speed can be all over the board. RBO might be a more consistent slow tracer, and maybe up the avocado by 10% if you're worried about hardness.
TD does accelerate trace, so when you're splitting off colors, mix everything else, and add TD last. Sorta like an accelerating FO.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jan 28, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> Regarding recipe #1, OO tracing speed can be all over the board. RBO might be a more consistent slow tracer, and maybe up the avocado by 10% if you're worried about hardness.
> TD does accelerate trace, so when you're splitting off colors, mix everything else, and add TD last. Sorta like an accelerating FO.


Thank you!  Would you replace all the OO with RBO or just part of it?  I like the feel and look of RBO in my soaps, but was concerned it is not as long-lasting as OO?

That's a good idea on adding the TD last.  I'd been treating it just like the micas (but it wasn't behaving like them).


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## GemstonePony (Jan 28, 2021)

JoyfulSudz said:


> Thank you!  Would you replace all the OO with RBO or just part of it?  I like the feel and look of RBO in my soaps, but was concerned it is not as long-lasting as OO?
> 
> That's a good idea on adding the TD last.  I'd been treating it just like the micas (but it wasn't behaving like them).


I believe avocado is longer lasting than OO. On its own, it's too hard with too many unsaponifiables to lather. Like.. at all. But in a balanced recipe, it brings hardness, creaminess, and with other oils doing the heavy lifting on cleaning, it's own Oleic FAs can help loosen up the bar for bubbles.


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## violets2217 (Jan 28, 2021)

So on another post, Mr. @Todd Ziegler made a statement about his soap recipe and commented it last 45 days. Made me wonder, How long should a soap last for you guys consider it a long lasting soap?


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## JoyfulSudz (Jan 28, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> I believe avocado is longer lasting than OO.


But how 'bout the RBO?  Is it any more prone to DOS than OO or can I exchange it for the OO with no problem?


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## Zing (Jan 28, 2021)

I don't know how I missed this fascinating thread!


SoapDaddy70 said:


> I actually just ran that recipe through Soap Making Friend and this is exactly the point of my post and what I do not fully understand about recipe formulation. Obviously people that sell soap need to make them visually appealing in order to stand out from the crowd. I get that, but are they also purposely not concerned with longevity so their bars don't last that long so people buy more often? I think I am starting to realize that the artistic swirly design part of soapmaking may not be for me. I think my recipe is going to make a **** good bar of soap. My mistake as a newbie was not properly formulating it for what I was hoping to do. I am also probably obsessing too much about the recipe property numbers. I do not mind the fact that I failed miserably in the design aspect. I am just trying to decide what kind of soapmaker I want to be. I watch a guy on You Tube named Uncle John and he is a no nonsense guy that is only concerned with formulating a good bar of soap. Since this is a hobby for me I do not know if I should be having fun and not obsess about the recipe properties. Sorry for thinking out loud.


When I started, I used other people's recipes.  Only recently did I start playing with SoapCalc numbers.  I am all over the place, sometimes into a design, sometimes into simplicity -- but no matter what it looks like, I want it to feel good, smell good, lather and bubble, and last awhile.  Sometimes I like the challenge of a new technique and appreciate these monthly challenges, sometimes I feel I just wasted hours and ingredients.  Sometimes I like a mono-colored or non-colored, uni-scented soap.  I do like this hobby that engages my math/science side and my creative side.  I keep reminding myself to have fun with it -- easier said that done.  But I know for a fact that no matter what I make, it's _way _better than commercial brands.  Soap on, soapy friends!


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## cmzaha (Jan 28, 2021)

JoyfulSudz said:


> Good to know about not having problems with the higher lye concentration. PNW winter weather provides enough "extra" water!
> 
> I do love the snowy white I can get with TD, but it definitely comes with problems.  Perhaps white mica is white enough in a high lard recipe.  I generally prefer my high lard soaps, but I know several people who won't use lard so I try to make both kinds.  I often test a bar without knowing which recipe it is, and then check the recipe after I have an opinion.  It's almost always a lard bar I like best (though that will never convince my vegan friends)!
> 
> Thank you for your suggestions on the lard bar.  I used to use RBO until I ran out, and I have been debating whether to get more.  I will, and I will try your recipe soon.


Do not always plan on not having problems with high lye concentrations. It is recipe dependent. My vegan recipe cannot be made with high lye concentration unless you want to play with soap on a stick.


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 29, 2021)

Zing said:


> I don't know how I missed this fascinating thread!
> 
> When I started, I used other people's recipes.  Only recently did I start playing with SoapCalc numbers.  I am all over the place, sometimes into a design, sometimes into simplicity -- but no matter what it looks like, I want it to feel good, smell good, lather and bubble, and last awhile.  Sometimes I like the challenge of a new technique and appreciate these monthly challenges, sometimes I feel I just wasted hours and ingredients.  Sometimes I like a mono-colored or non-colored, uni-scented soap.  I do like this hobby that engages my math/science side and my creative side.  I keep reminding myself to have fun with it -- easier said that done.  But I know for a fact that no matter what I make, it's _way _better than commercial brands.  Soap on, soapy friends!


Took the words right out of my mouth. This is exactly how I feel sometimes. Always have fun but sometimes it can be a little stressful as well.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jan 29, 2021)

@cmzaha  I never plan on not having problems.      I do always plan on the possibility of problems and have a Plan B at the ready for every batch.


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## GemstonePony (Jan 29, 2021)

JoyfulSudz said:


> But how 'bout the RBO?  Is it any more prone to DOS than OO or can I exchange it for the OO with no problem?


RBO is a little more prone to DOS than OO, but I know someone around here has 100% RBO soap they have had for a while and love, and others use it as a majority oil. You shouldn't run into problems swapping OO for RBO in a balanced recipe.


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## KimW (Jan 29, 2021)

Late to the party, as usual.   I recently gave hubby an old bar of store-bought soap (real soap from TJ's) to try in the shower because I wanted to put to rest the notion that my bars don't last very long.  My typical bars last anywhere from 2-3 weeks, 15 - 20 days, depending on how long they've "cured".  Bars rest in a soap saver and dry completely between uses. The store-bought soap is the same weight as my bars and made with Palm Oil and Palm Kernel Oil.  Of course I don't know the percentages, but a soap with these two oils would have a decent rank in the "longevity" column of a soap calc, and they've been in our house for at least 10 months now, so they're well cured.  The outcome of the test, I'm sure you've guessed:  The store-bought bar lasted the same amount of time as my bar, "maybe even less" according to hubby.  I haven't had him test with a syndet bar, but my childhood recollection is that syndet bars don't last much longer either.

Hope that helps a little.  I know that ages ago I had some angst about how long my bars lasted, and up until this test I was still on a quest to figure out a longer lasting bar - wondering with every "longevity" test batch if I'd succeeded.  I can't believe it took me so long to do such a simple test, but now I'm glad that bar longevity can be on my mind and not bother my mind!  I do still have to remind myself that, as we used to say in rugby, "It's just soap!" (only we'd say, "It's just rugby"...I'm sure you get the idea...)


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## jwarnerca (Jan 29, 2021)

AliOop said:


> TD definitely speeds up trace. White mica generally does not, but it's also not as white as TD.
> 
> I actually soap with 40% lye concentration and find that it is actually slower than using 33-38% concentration. But not every soaper experiences that, so it's probably recipe dependent. I always have at least 50% lard (usually more), which is slow tracing any way.
> 
> ...


Do you find your soaps are hard? I'm finding my recipes like this have the soap disappearing in 10 days with 2 people using almost daily.
What impact do various lye concentrations have? I just go with soap calc recommendation. I am reducing water more from 22-28


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## jwarnerca (Jan 29, 2021)

GemstonePony said:


> RBO is a little more prone to DOS than OO, but I know someone around here has 100% RBO soap they have had for a while and love, and others use it as a majority oil. You shouldn't run into problems swapping OO for RBO in a balanced recipe.


RBO?


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## GemstonePony (Jan 29, 2021)

jwarnerca said:


> RBO?


Rice Bran Oil
Also, in the beginner forum there is a pinned thread of acronyms.


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## Obsidian (Jan 29, 2021)

@JoyfulSudz   How much TD are you using? A high lard recipe is quite light to begin with so you don't need a lot of TD. I use a slightly heaped baby spoon full for 1 lb of oils, more if I want it chalky white.

I separate at emulsion and do a quick burst to mix in any colors. Everything stays nice and fluid unless I'm using a naughty FO. My recipe is 50% lard.


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## cmzaha (Jan 29, 2021)

jwarnerca said:


> Do you find your soaps are hard? I'm finding my recipes like this have the soap disappearing in 10 days with 2 people using almost daily.
> What impact do various lye concentrations have? I just go with soap calc recommendation. I am reducing water more from 22-28


You need to understand soap hardness really has very little to do with the longevity of a bar of soap, it is the solubility of the soap, such as a high CO soap is highly soluble although it is a very hard bar it will not last long. If you subtract your cleansing value from your hardness value you end up with your longevity value. The recommended range for Longevity is 25-50 I like mine no less than a value of 30. As an example, 100% CO soap has a Longevity value of 12. 

AliOop is using 40% Lye Concentration which is approx. 26% water as percent of oil. It is better to use the Lye Concentration which is the second tick box in Box 3 (water) of Soap Calc. Just fill in what lye concentration you choose to use. 33% is a pretty workable Lye Concentration unless using high OO or High Lard which are both extremely slow tracing. Using high Lye Concentrations resulting in slow tracing is very recipe dependent. It absolutely does not work for my vegan recipe.


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## JoyfulSudz (Jan 29, 2021)

Obsidian said:


> @JoyfulSudz   How much TD are you using? A high lard recipe is quite light to begin with so you don't need a lot of TD. I use a slightly heaped baby spoon full for 1 lb of oils, more if I want it chalky white.
> 
> I separate at emulsion and do a quick burst to mix in any colors. Everything stays nice and fluid unless I'm using a naughty FO. My recipe is 50% lard.



In this instance I wasn't using a lard recipe (it was the Recipe #1 in my post -- 43%OO) .  I used 1.5 tsp TD in 32 oz of batter.  I didn't want the yellow that can come with OO.


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## AliOop (Jan 29, 2021)

jwarnerca said:


> Do you find your soaps are hard? I'm finding my recipes like this have the soap disappearing in 10 days with 2 people using almost daily.
> What impact do various lye concentrations have? I just go with soap calc recommendation. I am reducing water more from 22-28


Edited: @cmzaha answered your questions very well, so I've deleted my duplicate reply.


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## jwarnerca (Jan 30, 2021)

cmzaha said:


> You need to understand soap hardness really has very little to do with the longevity of a bar of soap, it is the solubility of the soap, such as a high CO soap is highly soluble although it is a very hard bar it will not last long. If you subtract your cleansing value from your hardness value you end up with your longevity value. The recommended range for Longevity is 25-50 I like mine no less than a value of 30. As an example, 100% CO soap has a Longevity value of 12.
> 
> AliOop is using 40% Lye Concentration which is approx. 26% water as percent of oil. It is better to use the Lye Concentration which is the second tick box in Box 3 (water) of Soap Calc. Just fill in what lye concentration you choose to use. 33% is a pretty workable Lye Concentration unless using high OO or High Lard which are both extremely slow tracing. Using high Lye Concentrations resulting in slow tracing is very recipe dependent. It absolutely does not work for my vegan recipe.


Thank you!


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## penelopejane (Jan 31, 2021)

Bentonite is an accelerator and does nothing to anchor scents for me anyway. But I do use it to colour some soap and I like the feel of it in soap. I mix it with twice the amount of water and let it sit for an hour then mix it into the oils. It absorbs water like crazy and I think this method slows the acceleration a tiny bit. 
You could be over mixing and going passed emulsion which will accelerate a mix.
Or it could be the FO or a combo of the three.
My main concern is 1/4tsp ROE in each oil. How much oil do you add 1/4 tsp to?
I bought a jewellery scale so I could measure my ROE. DeeAnna suggests 0.05% ROE. That is 0.5 g in 1000g of oils. I weigh it out to put in 3,000g tin of oils and 1.5g of ROE is way less than 1/4tsp. You may be dosing huge amounts of oils, I just thought I’d check.






						Rosemary oleoresin (ROE) | Soapy Stuff
					

Classic Bells restores antique sleigh bells and manufactures bell home decor. Wholesale. Retail.




					classicbells.com


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## SoapDaddy70 (Jan 31, 2021)

penelopejane said:


> Bentonite is an accelerator and does nothing to anchor scents for me anyway. But I do use it to colour some soap and I like the feel of it in soap.
> You could be over mixing and going passed emulsion which will accelerate a mix.
> Or it could be the FO or a combo of the three.
> My main concern is 1/4tsp ROE in each oil. How much oil do you add 1/4 tsp to?
> ...


The 1 TBSP Bentonite was definitely a mistake on my part. If I use it again it will be at 1 tsp ppo. Over mixing wasn’t the issue because all I did was mix with a spatula. FO most likely was part of the issue. As for the ROE the 1/4 tsp was added to the full batch of 800g of oils not to each individual oil.


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## cmzaha (Jan 31, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> The 1 TBSP Bentonite was definitely a mistake on my part. If I use it again it will be at 1 tsp ppo. Over mixing wasn’t the issue because all I did was mix with a spatula. FO most likely was part of the issue. As for the ROE the 1/4 tsp was added to the full batch of 800g of oils not to each individual oil.


It still would not require 1/4 tsp ROE, you would use 0.4g of roe which would be about 6 drops, and a hint a tiny pinch of BHT work better than ROE in my opinion, which can be purchased in capsules. It is such a small percentage you really do not have to put it on your label, also many brands of lard already contain BHT. BHT with SG or EDTA works fantastically alongside a few grains of BHT. I only add ROE to new 5 gallon containers of liquid oils when I open them.


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## penelopejane (Jan 31, 2021)

SoapDaddy70 said:


> The 1 TBSP Bentonite was definitely a mistake on my part. If I use it again it will be at 1 tsp ppo. Over mixing wasn’t the issue because all I did was mix with a spatula. FO most likely was part of the issue. As for the ROE the 1/4 tsp was added to the full batch of 800g of oils not to each individual oil.


It is easier to add ROE to your oils as soon as they arrive and so you don’t have to deal in tiny measurements. This also extends the life of your oils. It’s too late to put it in when making your soap. I like ROE because it is natural and it works.

I just weighed some out for you and a level 1/8 tsp of my ROE = 1 g enough to treat 2,000g of oil.  So 1/4 tsp would treat 4kg of oils.

So I’d treat your base SOFT oils when they arrive by mixing the required amount of ROE (1/2 a gram per 1 kg) in a small container with some of your oil and mix thoroughly. Then pour back into your main container and shake well.

I don’t eat BHT so won’t use it in soap but that is just me. It’s in some pork product so many people do eat it. It’s just a personal preference of mine not to use it.


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## cmzaha (Jan 31, 2021)

My mom is now 95 yrs old has used lard for many yrs in cooking eaten pork and many products with BHT, it does not scare me. Also, soap is a wash-off product. Just my opinion, and it wards off DOS very well in tiny amounts.


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## dolchrls (Feb 8, 2021)

cmzaha said:


> If you would like a workable recipe using palm and not opposed to lard that will have longevity pm me. Sorry, I will not post my recipes publicly nor do I give up my recipes easily that I have spent years coming up with. but I will mention I would cut the cocoa butter out and not up the Avo oil.


As a fairly new soap maker, still trying to formulate "my perfect recipe" I can fully understand why, especially if you sell your products.  I feel such a sense of accomplishment in the few recipes I've put together thus far. I've gotten bars which cleanses, feels good on my skin, with nice bubbles and sufficient creaminess, even though they sometimes fall short of the Soap Calc "quality" numbers.  The added bonus is that friends and family love them and requests to purchase. As far as selling in a public forum, I'm not yet at that stage. Truth be told, I'm a little scared.


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## SPowers (Feb 8, 2021)

my go-to recipe is almost all hard oils... lard, CO, PO, Shea and castor.  It's a beautiful recipe to work with providing the fo's don't give me a problem.  It must be the lard that helps it stay fluid.


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## Funmi (Apr 11, 2021)

SPowers said:


> my go-to recipe is almost all hard oils... lard, CO, PO, Shea and castor.  It's a beautiful recipe to work with providing the fo's don't give me a problem.  It must be the lard that helps it stay fluid.



I noticed it too. Lard took more time to reach trace. This made pouring so much easier.

Do you miss soft oils in soap like olive and sunflower?


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## SPowers (Apr 11, 2021)

Personally I don't like working with Olive oil and the few soaps I've made with I don't care for either.  I read somewhere on here that some ppl have an issue with it feeling kind of 'slimy' and I fall into that group.  Interestingly enough, the 2nd soap I made last May was made with olive oil and my husband and bestie like it the best.  Different strokes.  Also, going back to the beginning, I decided I wouldn't use sunflower, canola, or any of those other type oils.  I don't use them in cooking and don't find the need to put them on my shelf since there are so many other oils to use.


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## Tracy von Elling (Apr 13, 2021)

I was thinking what Dibbles said about lard - unless you want a vegan recipe. I use 50% lard (depending on the fragrance oil and mica of course) but my recipe stays fluid for ages.  I do still use 35% coconut oil and am going to lower that again as the bar doesn't last as long with a high % of coconut oil but I LOVE my bubbles with it!


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