# (dumb) question about superfat



## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

trying to wrap my head around the math when it comes to superfat....Let's say that you want to do a 33/33/33 blend of oils in soap.  An 80 ounce (5 pound) batch of soap would be roughly 17.2 ounces of oil 3 ways.  When you superfat, do you simply add a percentage on top of that or is it more complicated than that?


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## toxikon (May 8, 2017)

Yep. Are you using a lye calculator to formulate your recipes? It does all the math for you - which is great for me, because I suck at it.

My favourite is Soapee - I like the UI, you can save recipes, and it's easy to do dual-lye solid soap with it.


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## Susie (May 8, 2017)

Agreed with using Soapee.com.  Awesome, user friendly calculator.  You just leave the superfat alone, as 5% is the default.

However, I am concerned about a couple of things.

1.  5 lbs is a LARGE batch for a newbie.  I would strongly recommend that you make no more than a 2 lb batch to start with, so that you are not stuck with 5 lbs of bad soap.  You will be making lots of batches trying to fine tune your favorite recipe, so not being stuck with a lot of bad soap is important.

2.  33/33/33 is a HORRIBLE recipe.  That is way too much CO for most people.  I would strongly suggest you make something more like this to start with:

Lard/Tallow/Palm 60%
CO 15-20%
OO 15-20%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%

Most oils are available at Walmart, castor oil will be in the pharmacy area by the laxatives.  Lard, CO, OO are available on the baking aisle.  If you want to try the palm/tallow option, you can buy the Great Value Shortening (NOT the vegetable shortening!) and choose the appropriate option on the calculator.


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

Thanks.  That's what I thought but I guess I wanted to over complicate things.  I was using BrambleBerry's lye calculator for my first batch but cut the water abit (I read a couple articles from other soapers that literally just doubled the lye ounces- I did more than double but less than suggested) and it went went pretty well (although I freaked out when it turned to pudding so quickly but the end result was amazing smelling, just not so pretty...more rustic looking).  

This next batch, I am adding more exotic oils and laying back on the coconut oil because it felt too dry on the skin and because of that, I am going to have to formulate....


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## BrewerGeorge (May 8, 2017)

A more instructive term than superfat is "lye discount" and refers to the balance of lye to oils.  Zero superfat/discount would be every bit fats perfectly reacted with lye.  That's kind of hard to do without very accurate scales and measurements of lye purity, so we typically introduce a buffer, or cushion and choose to use less lye than calculations would indicate.  We discount the lye, which ensures excess unreacted fats - superfat.  So we don't add more oil, so much as we use _less_ lye.

That's the best way to look at it, although you are technically correct that adding more oil would be functionally equivalent.  The problem with that approach is that by convention we start with the amount of oils as the basis for all calculations.  But it's still useful to know this because it will guide you when doing things like deciding how to round fractional grams in calculated recipes.  Rounding oils up and lye down are both in the desired direction of higher superfat/lye discount.


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

Susie said:


> Agreed with using Soapee.com.  Awesome, user friendly calculator.  You just leave the superfat alone, as 5% is the default.
> 
> However, I am concerned about a couple of things.
> 
> ...



yeah, I was using a recipe from the SQ.  I actually already made my first batch and it was okay but a bit too drying (as many of the other soapers have commented on a previous soap.  It's funny how that is...the verbage on most blogs call CO "cleansing" when actually a better adjective (albeit not as nice) would be "stripping".

As far as the poundage, I'm kind of in it to win it, lol.  Been buying oils bulk at the Bulk Apothecary to keep costs down and my first two molds are 5 pounders.  So, it's all trial by fire on my end.


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## toxikon (May 8, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> Thanks.  That's what I thought but I guess I wanted to over complicate things.  I was using BrambleBerry's lye calculator for my first batch but cut the water abit (*I read a couple articles from other soapers that literally just doubled the lye ounces- I did more than double but less than suggested*) and it went went pretty well (although I freaked out when it turned to pudding so quickly but the end result was amazing smelling, just not so pretty...more rustic looking).
> 
> This next batch, I am adding more exotic oils and laying back on the coconut oil because it felt too dry on the skin and because of that, I am going to have to formulate....



Unless I am misunderstanding... you used twice the amount of lye it recommended you use? That's not water discounting, that's messing with the superfat. So if you originally had it set to a 5% superfat, if you doubled the lye, you'd end up with a very negative superfat. Math people, feel free to jump in if I'm totally wrong here.

If you want to do a water discount, you're subtracting some of the water - not increasing the lye. If your soap is lye-heavy, it will probably not be usable and will need to be rebatched. Lye-heavy soap is very stripping to the skin and can even cause burns.

I'd recommend on holding back on exotic oils until you have a good base recipe. Adding exotic oils won't counteract the drying properties of coconut oil - to make your soap less stripping, you'll just need to use a lower percentage of stripping oils.


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> A more instructive term than superfat is "lye discount" and refers to the balance of lye to oils.  Zero superfat/discount would be every bit fats perfectly reacted with lye.  That's kind of hard to do without very accurate scales and measurements of lye purity, so we typically introduce a buffer, or cushion and choose to use less lye than calculations would indicate.  We discount the lye, which ensures excess unreacted fats - superfat.  So we don't add more oil, so much as we use _less_ lye.
> 
> That's the best way to look at it, although you are technically correct that adding more oil would be functionally equivalent.  The problem with that approach is that by convention we start with the amount of oils as the basis for all calculations.  But it's still useful to know this because it will guide you when doing things like deciding how to round fractional grams in calculated recipes.  Rounding oils up and lye down are both in the desired direction of higher superfat/lye discount.



Thanks.  That's what I need.  The chemistry part is what attracted me to this endeavor.  From what I can understand, different oils require either more or less lye depending on the fatty chains within the oil; when they are combined, the molecules attach to form soap.  That's kind of my understanding from what I've read at least.  Am I too far off base with my thinking?


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## BrewerGeorge (May 8, 2017)

toxikon said:


> Unless I am misunderstanding... you used twice the amount of lye it recommended you use? That's not water discounting, that's messing with the superfat. So if you originally had it set to a 5% superfat, if you doubled the lye, you'd end up with a very negative superfat. Math people, feel free to jump in if I'm totally wrong here.
> 
> If you want to do a water discount, you're subtracting some of the water - not increasing the lye. If your soap is lye-heavy, it will probably not be usable and will need to be rebatched. Lye-heavy soap is very stripping to the skin and can even cause burns.
> 
> ...


Doubling the lye from a 5% superfat plan would, I think, cause something like a 40% lye excess and a blisteringly unusable soap.

I think drunkonlife was saying he(she?) doubled the weight of lye to get the amount of water.  That's a basic rule of thumb for 33% lye concentration.

ETA:  Actually now that I think about it, I think it would be a *90% excess*!


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

toxikon said:


> Unless I am misunderstanding... you used twice the amount of lye it recommended you use? That's not water discounting, that's messing with the superfat. So if you originally had it set to a 5% superfat, if you doubled the lye, you'd end up with a very negative superfat. Math people, feel free to jump in if I'm totally wrong here.
> 
> If you want to do a water discount, you're subtracting some of the water - not increasing the lye. If your soap is lye-heavy, it will probably not be usable and will need to be rebatched. Lye-heavy soap is very stripping to the skin and can even cause burns.
> 
> I'd recommend on holding back on exotic oils until you have a good base recipe. Adding exotic oils won't counteract the drying properties of coconut oil - to make your soap less stripping, you'll just need to use a lower percentage of stripping oils.



No, I'm basically doubling the water amount compared to the lye and then adding a bit more.  The lye stays the same, I am basically dropping the amount of water suggested based solely on the things I've read in blogs and what not.

My next batch I intend to use less coconut oil (thanks to the suggestions of this forum! my new formula for coconut oil looks to be about 18%) and add castor oil to the mix.  I just bought some sweet almond oil and jojoba oil (which I plan to use very sparingly) and intend to add some to my next mix.


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## toxikon (May 8, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Doubling the lye from a 5% superfat plan would, I think, cause something like a 40% lye excess and a blisteringly unusable soap.
> 
> I think drunkonlife was saying he(she?) doubled the weight of lye to get the amount of water.  That's a basic rule of thumb for 33% lye concentration.



Hopefully that's the case! I wasn't entirely sure from the wording.

edit: I see the response now, so that's great! Nevermind my worry.


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## BrewerGeorge (May 8, 2017)

Jojoba is wasted in soap, honestly.  I did the same thing you're doing when I started out - I even considered soaping tamanu oil - but the folks around here talked me out of it.


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Jojoba is wasted in soap, honestly.  I did the same thing you're doing when I started out - I even considered soaping tamanu oil - but the folks around here talked me out of it.



Good to know.  Anyone on the forum want to buy a gallon of jojobo oil? (JK).  In all seriousness, I hate that I bought it now but probably can make use of it down the road.

Are you using any more exotic oils/butters?   Right now, my bases seem to be OO, CO, Shea butter, PO, Castor Oil and now sweet almond oil.


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## cmzaha (May 8, 2017)

Save your jojoba for a leave on product such as a nice lotion bar. It really adds nothing to soap. SAO is nice for the fact it is a bit more of a bubbly soft oil as compared to OO. I do like SAO in soap. The following recipe is one of my favorites. It is long lasting, bubbly and non stripping
A nice recipe is 
40% tallow
30% lard
13% CO
13% liquid oil
4 % castor
3% superfat or your favorite
33% lye concentration
1tbs ppo sugar


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## toxikon (May 8, 2017)

You won't even sense the presence of most oils in a soap unless used 5%+, so using small portions of exotic, expensive oils is mostly wasted. Unless a seasoned soap seller is using them for label-appeal.

Jojoba is more of a wax than an oil, so I believe it can act weirdly in lye-based soap.

You may want to save your exotic oils for use in leave-on products.

Good base recipe oils would be: lard/tallow/palm, olive oil/HO sunflower/safflower/ricebran, coconut oil, castor oil.

Good "exotic" oils would be: avocado oil, shea/cocoa/mango butter, sweet almond, babassu.

Just go with what's cheapest to get started. You'll want to tinker with your base recipe for a while before finding something that's perfect for you. Then it's time to start playing with exotic oils/butter and additives.

Here's a great resource to learn what each oil brings to a bar of soap: http://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> Save your jojoba for a leave on product such as a nice lotion bar. It really adds nothing to soap. SAO is nice for the fact it is a bit more of a bubbly soft oil as compared to OO. I do like SAO in soap. The following recipe is one of my favorites. It is long lasting, bubbly and non stripping
> A nice recipe is
> 40% tallow
> 30% lard
> ...



Awesome!  Do you have any suggestions if I'm not using lard/tallow?


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## BrewerGeorge (May 8, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> Good to know.  Anyone on the forum want to buy a gallon of jojobo oil? (JK).  In all seriousness, I hate that I bought it now but probably can make use of it down the road.
> 
> Are you using any more exotic oils/butters?   Right now, my bases seem to be OO, CO, Shea butter, PO, Castor Oil and now sweet almond oil.



Like cmzha says, lotion bar.  They're awesome and easy to make.

1/3 jojoba oil
1/3 beeswax
1/3 cocoa, shea or mango butter
some scent

I can't make them fast enough to keep my daughters supplied in the winter.


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## cmzaha (May 8, 2017)

toxikon said:


> You won't even sense the presence of most oils in a soap unless used 5%+, so using small portions of exotic, expensive oils is mostly wasted. Unless a seasoned soap seller is using them for label-appeal


It is not necessarily so. Try making a slow trace recipe with 5% castor then make the same with 2-3% and you will see quite a difference in trace between the two percentages. It will still stabilize the lather at the 2% castor




drunkonlife said:


> Awesome!  Do you have any suggestions if I'm not using lard/tallow?


Not really for this recipe since palm is the veggie replacement for lard and tallow, which is not a nice soap at 70%. You could use 40% palm, 10% coco butter and add to the soft oil. It just will not be quite the same. Keep butters on the low side since they hinder lather. I normally do not like over 10% of any butter in soap. Although have made a very high shea soap that requires over a year of curing to be nice but really not worth the shea expense or time required before using it


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## BrewerGeorge (May 8, 2017)

What are your objections to lard and tallow?


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## toxikon (May 8, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> It is not necessarily so. Try making a slow trace recipe with 5% castor then make the same with 2-3% and you will see quite a difference in trace between the two percentages. It will still stabilize the lather at the 2% castor



That's why I said _most_, not all!  Castor is definitely an important exception. I'd also assume coconut/babassu used at 5% or lower would make a noticeable difference.

But many other oils would get lost, I think.


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> What are your objections to lard and tallow?



No objections.  I just don't have any (and have a ton of other oils, haha)


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## dixiedragon (May 8, 2017)

What oils do you have? (Besides a gallon of jojoba, lol).

If you are interested in knowing the science behind soaping, check out Kevin Dunne's Scientific Soap Making.

Also, you can use jojoba and beeswax to make wood polish.


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## Cellador (May 8, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> Good to know.  Anyone on the forum want to buy a gallon of jojobo oil? (JK).  In all seriousness, I hate that I bought it now but probably can make use of it down the road.
> 
> Are you using any more exotic oils/butters?   Right now, my bases seem to be OO, CO, Shea butter, PO, Castor Oil and now sweet almond oil.



I love jojoba for body/face oils, lotion bars (already mentioned), and homemade body butters. If I'm not mistaken, it also has a long shelf life, so it won't go to waste.


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## cmzaha (May 8, 2017)

toxikon said:


> That's why I said _most_, not all!  Castor is definitely an important exception. I'd also assume coconut/babassu used at 5% or lower would make a noticeable difference.
> 
> But many other oils would get lost, I think.


Certainly some get lost. I can tell a difference at 20% olive oil versus 8%. I dislike olive oil in soap in high percentages, but I do agree 5% sunflower, 5% avocado etc would not really make a difference. Coconut Oil /babassu/pko are certainly oils where there is a noticeable difference


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> What oils do you have? (Besides a gallon of jojoba, lol).



Let's see...

200 ounces Olive Oil
128 ounces Coconut Oil
32 Ounces palm kernal oil
112 ounces of palm oil (because at the time I didn't realize the difference between PKO and PO)
128 Ounces Castor Oil
120 ounces Sunflower Oil
120 Ounces Sweet Almond Oil
14 ounces Jojoba oil
14 ounces shea butter (unrefined)..

so a lot of oil, haha.


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## toxikon (May 8, 2017)

cmzaha said:


> Certainly some get lost. I can tell a difference at 20% olive oil versus 8%. I dislike olive oil in soap in high percentages, but I do agree 5% sunflower, 5% avocado etc would not really make a difference. Coconut Oil /babassu/pko are certainly oils where there is a noticeable difference



Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of exotic oils like avocado, meadowfoam, argan, jojoba, tamanu, etc. Those nice expensive liquid oils wouldn't shine much at lower than 5%. I love them in leave-on products though.


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## BrewerGeorge (May 8, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> Let's see...
> 
> 200 ounces Olive Oil
> 128 ounces Coconut Oil
> ...


Good Lord! That's enough Castor for 160 lb of soap at 5%!

You need to buy some ROE, ASAP and figure out how to use it.


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## toxikon (May 8, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Good Lord! That's enough Castor for 160 lb of soap at 5%!
> 
> You need to buy some ROE, ASAP and figure out how to use it.



ROE and freezing the oils with the shortest expiry dates, for sure. Wow! That's a crazy amount of oil. I'd definitely freeze a large portion of the sunflower, sweet almond, olive oil, shea and jojoba.


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

BrewerGeorge said:


> Good Lord! That's enough Castor for 160 lb of soap at 5%!
> 
> You need to buy some ROE, ASAP and figure out how to use it.



It's my practice oils....and I have a lot of friends and family, lol.  My plan is to do a 5 pound loaf a week until I get comfortable with it so it should go fairly quickly.  Plus, I figure that a couple hundred dollars of soapmaking materials for "school" isn't so bad.  It may appear that I am a little overzealous and crazy but it will get used.


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## kchaystack (May 8, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> It's my practice oils....and I have a lot of friends and family, lol.  My plan is to do a 5 pound loaf a week until I get comfortable with it so it should go fairly quickly.  Plus, I figure that a couple hundred dollars of soapmaking materials for "school" isn't so bad.



You really do not want to do such large batches as practice.  I would not do more than 1 pound batches until you are comfortable.  Not only for cost - but also because if you make a bunch of bad soap, you might scare off all your testers.


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## dixiedragon (May 8, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> Let's see...
> 
> 200 ounces Olive Oil
> 128 ounces Coconut Oil
> ...


 
I'd recommend something like a 2.5 lb batch, approximately 1 log in mold log molds. That's 10 bars. But if you want to make 5 lbs at a time...go for it, lol.

Re your oils - PKO is basically a gentler version of coconut, so you could try it a 10, 20 or even 30% of a recipe.

With you oils, try:
40% palm
20% coconut
5% castor
35% (the rest) divided between olive and sunflower.

Use your shea butter, sweet almond and jojoba to make a whipped butter or a solid lotion bar.


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## drunkonlife (May 8, 2017)

dixiedragon said:


> I'd recommend something like a 2.5 lb batch, approximately 1 log in mold log molds. That's 10 bars. But if you want to make 5 lbs at a time...go for it, lol.
> 
> Re your oils - PKO is basically a gentler version of coconut, so you could try it a 10, 20 or even 30% of a recipe.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much.  I am going to try this recipe my next batch later this week.  I know it seems like 5 pound batches is overkill considering I just started but I bought a 5 pound mold set and figured that since that is the mold I am likely to use regularly, I may as well practice like I play, for better or worse.  Plus, all these darn oils need a place to go!


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## cmzaha (May 8, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> Thank you so much.  I am going to try this recipe my next batch later this week.  I know it seems like 5 pound batches is overkill considering I just started but I bought a 5 pound mold set and figured that since that is the mold I am likely to use regularly, I may as well practice like I play, for better or worse.  Plus, all these darn oils need a place to go!


But you are going to not be happy when a batch goes sideways and you just wasted 50-55 oz of oil for your 5 lb mold. It really makes no difference in making 5lb versus 2lb except less waste. You do not have the experience yet to know if the soap is even good, so it is much better to make 1-2 lb batches so you can make more and try different oil combinations. Even though some soaps I make 25lbs at a time I still use smaller molds 6-7 lb molds and use 1 lb molds for testing. I would not dream of making a 5 lb test batch. Been there done that and tossed a few which always makes me mad so I learned my lesson. Take the time to make small test batches


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## Zany_in_CO (May 8, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> When you superfat, do you simply add a percentage on top of that or is it more complicated than that?


It's actually less complicated than that. A no-brainer really. On SoapCalc, the default amount for water is 38% (full water amount)  and for superfat it's 5% (vs. 0% which would saponify all the oils in your formula) and you want some of the fatty acids to remain unsapped just cuz it feels nicer on the skin. Use the defaults for your first few batches. Later, you may want to discount your water amount, i.e., use less liquid or change your superfat % either up or down, depending on what you want to achieve and what oils are in your formula.


drunkonlife said:


> ...the verbage on most blogs call CO "cleansing" when actually a better adjective (albeit not as nice) would be "stripping".


LOL 


drunkonlife said:


> As far as the poundage, I'm kind of in it to win it, lol. Been buying oils bulk at the Bulk Apothecary to keep costs down and my first two molds are 5 pounders. So, it's all trial by fire on my end.


Hey Hey "Drunk", you got spunk! We're all concerned you'll go ker-plunk! 
LOL I'm totally on board, wishing you the best of luck and hoping to help any way I can -- as are we all.


toxikon said:


> Here's a great resource to learn what each oil brings to a bar of soap:
> http://www.lovinsoap.com/oils-chart/


^^^^^ Ditto


drunkonlife said:


> ...The chemistry part is what attracted me to this endeavor.


Read the next quote. Then go back and "Like" dixiedragon's post. 


dixiedragon said:


> If you are interested in knowing the science behind soaping, check out Kevin Dunne's Scientific Soap Making.


^^^^^ Ditto 


BrewerGeorge said:


> You need to buy some ROE, ASAP and figure out how to use it.


Here's a good way to use up some of your jojoba oil. ROE (Rosemary Oleoresin Extract), is an antioxidant used to slow down rancidity in oils. It is thick and gooey and can get messy. To make it easier to dispense, here's what I do:

2 oz. ROE (from Lotion Crafter -- see BG's original post to link to it.)
4 oz. Jojoba Oil
USE RATE: 1/2 teaspoon PPO (Per Pound Oils) 

Add to oils when they are first opened. I also add to the batch at the same rate.
   :bunny:



drunkonlife said:


> 200 ounces Olive Oil
> 128 ounces Coconut Oil
> 32 Ounces palm kernal oil
> 112 ounces of palm oil (because at the time I didn't realize the difference between PKO and PO)
> ...


Total: 868 ounces / 80oz per batch = 11 batches of soap
It's a good thing castor oil has a long shelf life! I buy it by the gallon also and decant it into 16 oz. bottles when first opened.

To Extend the Shelf Life of Oils:
Add an antioxident such as ROE and/or Vitamin E. 
Store oils away from light at room temperature,  65°F (18°C) to 75°F (24°C), the cooler the better.
Refrigerate or freeze them in small containers. 
Less air space in the bottles, the longer the shelf life.

Oil - Typical Use Rate %    >>>>> Shelf Life.
Castor - 2-5%>>>>>  approx 1 year, keep in cool place.
Coconut - 5-25%>>>>>1 year +, keep in cool place.
Jojoba - less than 10%>>>>>    Indefinite. Jojoba is not an oil, but a liquid wax.
Olive - up to 100%>>>>>    2 years, keep in cool place.
Palm - up to 30%>>>>>    approx 1 year, keep in cool place.
Palm Kernel Oil - 15%>>>>>    approx 1 year, keep in cool place.
Shea Butter - up to 15%>>>>>    1 year, longer if refrigerated.
Sunflower - 20% or more>>>>>    3 months to 1 year, refrigerate.
Sweet Almond - 5-20%>>>>>    6 months to 1 year, keep in cool place.

Source: https://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-...s-guide-to-soapmaking-common-soapmaking-oils/



drunkonlife said:


> 200 ounces Olive Oil
> 128 ounces Coconut Oil
> 32 Ounces palm kernal oil (PKO)
> 112 ounces of palm oil
> ...


*Soaping Marathon Challenge*: Create 11 batches using only the oils listed. Use the recommended % of each oil (posted above) as a guideline.

Formulating Guidelines
1) Coconut Oil and/or PKO (lather, cleansing, hardness) set the foundation; use in all batches.
2) Olive Oil with/or without Sunflower, Almond, Jojoba (conditioning oils).
3) Palm Oil - Filler oil; balances hard vs. liquid oils; if this runs out, use lard and/or tallow
4) Shea Butter - Adds extra emollience; conditioning; moisturizing.
5) Castor Oil - Bumps the lather; good for shampoo bar; conditioning; moisturizing.


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## KristaY (May 8, 2017)

Hi DrunkOnLife and welcome! I appreciate your enthusiasm and remember it well. 

If you want to use the molds you have and make smaller "test" batches, make a vertical divider and put it at the half way point of the log. You can even make 2 so the log is divided in 3. I did it with scrap cardboard from shipping boxes, covered the cardboard with shipping tape to make it more sturdy, then secured it to the mold and liner with tape. I had to work to keep the batter from bowing out the bottom but it worked fine for experiments. Then you can play with 1.25-2.5 lb batches while you experiment with the great oils you've got. I've done it several times so I could pour different oil recipes and try out new scents. I usually ended up with a bar in the middle that was half of each scent, and that was fun in itself.


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## Susie (May 9, 2017)

You can even use the molds you have, only just pour an inch deep.  So you will get 9 bars, just that it will be like using a slab mold.  I seriously suggest making only a 2 lb batch.  This is only until you get a recipe, or recipes that you love.  THEN you can make huge batches.  You really do not want to scare off your testers, they are an invaluable asset to a new soaper.  You can send little surveys to them, and have them blind test batches.  I used to put the bar of soap and the survey in a Ziploc bag, and send them out together.  The cost of getting more soap was a completed survey.

I could not agree more with freezing some of those oils fast.  That will indefinitely prolong the shelf life of those oils while you use them down.


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## navigator9 (May 9, 2017)

I wholeheartedly agree with George about the jojoba. Jojoba is a wonderful oil used straight on the skin, or even hair, but it just doesn't come through in the soap the way you'd hope it would. As far as "exotic" oils go, avocado is one that a lot of people find really nice in soap.

I think you will find, as most of us who have been making soap for any amount of time have found, that really good soap doesn't depend as much on "exotic" oils as it does a good balance of conditioning, lather and hardness, which you can achieve with a balanced recipe. You've already discovered that too much coconut oil is very stripping. Start tweaking your base recipe. I don't remember reading what oils you used in your 33/33/33 batch, but if they were the "holy trinity" of olive, coconut and palm, your recipe was actually a good starting point for experimenting. (not a 5lb batch, though!) With that recipe, you can see what equal amounts of those oils bring to the table. Next, you can increase the olive and decrease the coconut and see what that does. Keep notes, you'll want to remember. You can make wonderful soap with those three ingredients alone. They're not called the holy trinity for nothing. But you have to experiment with your recipe, which is why you've been advised not to make 5lb batches for now. Make lots of experimental batches until you come up with a recipe you really love. 

Just FYI, one of my favorite ingredients is oatmeal, ground to a fine powder, or a little more chunky if you want scrubbiness, used at 1T per pound of oils. And it's cheap. Have fun experimenting!


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## Zany_in_CO (May 9, 2017)

Susie said:


> You can even use the molds you have, only just pour an inch deep.


^^^^^ Brilliant!


navigator9 said:


> ...really good soap doesn't depend as much on "exotic" oils as it does a good balance of conditioning, lather and hardness, which you can achieve with a balanced recipe. ... the "holy trinity" of olive, coconut and palm, your recipe was actually a good starting point for experimenting.


^^^^^Excellent advice!   So, I'm thinking:

David Fisher’s Site has a lot of good info for beginners. You may want to take time to review some basics like safety precautions, how to mix lye, etc. Here's a link:
http://candleandsoap.about.com/od/soapmakingbasics/u/soapuserpath1.htm

Batch #1 - 
Basic Trinity of Oils: Coconut, Palm, Olive  (David’s Basic Recipe)

Go to SoapCalc.net (or BrambleBerry's) and plug in the following amounts:

30.4 oz *(38%)* water (default %)
11.4 oz *(5%)* NaOH (324 grams) (default %)

20 oz (25%) coconut oil 
24 oz (30%) palm (can sub lard, tallow later)
36 oz (45%) olive oil
80 oz TOTAL

Go to the View page and take a look at these values:

Sat:Unsat ratio >>> 49:51  Oils are well balanced between saturated oils and unsaturated oils

Soap Qualities (Recommended “Range” in parentheses)
47 Hardness (29 - 54)
17 Cleansing (12 - 22)
49 Conditioning (44 - 69)
17 Bubbly (14 - 46)
30 Creamy (16 - 48)
52 Iodine (41 - 70)
161 INS (136-165) Note: INS value of 160 = So called “perfect” soap

It doesn't get much better than this. So make this first to see how you like it. For future batches, this is where you would tweak the formula to perhaps get more conditioning and less cleansing, for example.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Once you’ve got your formula for 80 oz. oils, you may want to take Susie’s advice to find the amount of oils needed to fill your 5 lb mold to a depth of one inch. Steve Mushensky’s Site at Summer Bee Meadow has a “Recipe Resizer”. Use the calculator to enter the oil amounts above. Click “Calculate”. Then follow the instructions to resize for a 1” deep batch.

http://summerbeemeadow.com/sites/all/sbm_calc_input/calc_input_page_1.1.html

HAPPY SOAPING! :wave:
​


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## DeeAnna (May 9, 2017)

David Fischer's soap making info is now located at "The Spruce" https://www.thespruce.com/candle-and-soap-making-4127412


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## drunkonlife (May 9, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> ^^^^^ Brilliant!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks you guys!

Quick question.  I know that to produce a 5 pound loaf (approximately), I need 51.6 oils without superfatting.  Using that logic, it would be roughly 10.32 ounces per pound.  Could I simply reduce my recipe that way and then adjust my percentages to ounces accordingly?


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## Zany_in_CO (May 9, 2017)

DeeAnna said:


> David Fischer's soap making info is now located at "The Spruce" https://www.thespruce.com/candle-and-soap-making-4127412


That's true about David Fischers new site, The Spruce. Did the link I posted not work for you, DeeAnna? It works for me, and I hope for others.


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## toxikon (May 9, 2017)

As for calculating batter amount (oils + lye + water) for my mold size, I just tinker with Soapee until it's where I want it. It's very very easy to do and takes the guesswork out.

If my mold can hold 60oz, I'll start with guesstimating around 40oz oils in "Oils total", then take a peek downwards at the "Total Batch Weight". Then I'll play with it a bit, maybe take it down or up a few ounces until that Total Batch Weight equals 60oz.


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## Zany_in_CO (May 9, 2017)

Let me put it this way... to find out how much soap your batch of oils makes, multiply by a factor of 1.37.

EXAMPLE: 80 oz oils X 1.37 = 109.6 oz. soap = 109.6 oz soap / 16 oz = 6.85 lbs.

PS: 1.37 is a factor I came across some 13 years ago, early in my soaping career... Lord knows where I got it, probably from one or more of the books I read early on... but it's fairly accurate. I use it a lot to reverse engineer formulas. (Listen to me -- one would hardly believe how math challenged I am! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





)


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## toxikon (May 9, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Let me put it this way... to find out how much soap your batch of oils makes, multiply by a factor of 1.37.
> 
> EXAMPLE: 80 oz oils X 1.37 = 109.6 oz. soap = 109.6 oz soap / 16 oz = 6.85 lbs.
> 
> ...



Just out of curiosity, I wanted to test out your method vs. my extra lazy Soapee method.

I'll stick with my mold = 60oz assumption. Let's do a Castille with full water, 5% SF and no fragrance.

40oz oils x 1.37 = 54.8oz

Soapee Total Batch Weight with 40oz oils = 60.35oz

Not a huge difference there, but I still think I prefer using Soapee!


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## drunkonlife (May 9, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> Let me put it this way... to find out how much soap your batch of oils makes, multiply by a factor of 1.37.
> 
> EXAMPLE: 80 oz oils X 1.37 = 109.6 oz. soap = 109.6 oz soap / 16 oz = 6.85 lbs.
> 
> ...



Thanks.  I knew that there was math behind the madness (math is life).  And it is only slighlty off from the various online calculators I've been messing with.


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## Zany_in_CO (May 9, 2017)

toxikon said:


> Soapee Total Batch Weight with 40oz oils = 60.35oz


I think everyone should stick with what they know and feel comfortable with. That being said, "Batch Weight" is not the same as the weight of finished soap. Batch weight is given on all calcs, I believe.  You might want to weigh your soap after cure to get a better idea of how the factor of 1.37 works. Maybe???


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## Susie (May 9, 2017)

toxikon said:


> Just out of curiosity, I wanted to test out your method vs. my extra lazy Soapee method.
> 
> I'll stick with my mold = 60oz assumption. Let's do a Castille with full water, 5% SF and no fragrance.
> 
> ...



Using a soap calculator is the best idea by far.  My rule of thumb for guesstimating how much oil to use is that each batch is 2 parts oil to 1 part lye water.  Until you get the right amount of batter is to have extra small molds just in case.  But in your case, you have huge molds, so just figure out a 1.5 lb of oil batch of soap.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (May 10, 2017)

That 1.37 figure is based on "full water" and an average of some oil specific gravities to get the idea of volume to weight.  It's not bad, but does make assumptions about your recipe


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## DeeAnna (May 10, 2017)

Here's one thread where we talked about the "mold volume vs. weight of oils" rule in more detail: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58581


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## Zany_in_CO (May 10, 2017)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> That 1.37 figure is based on "full water" and an average of some oil specific gravities to get the idea of volume to weight.  It's not bad, but does make assumptions about your recipe


^^^^^ Ditto.

ETA: On that note, and with apologies to the OP for the hijack, I'm wondering if we can get back on topic? Or maybe admin could move this discussion to its own thread? It's a good discussion and I would hate to see it get buried here... but that's just me, and I'm new to SMF, and if I'm outta line, I apologize to all.
:bath1:​


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## DeeAnna (May 11, 2017)

Zany_in_CO said:


> That's true about David Fischers new site, The Spruce. Did the link I posted not work for you, DeeAnna? It works for me, and I hope for others.



Yes, it works, but your link is to the old About.com location and it ends up being redirected to The Spruce. URL redirects are slow, they sometimes do not work at all, and sometimes they are eliminated. Why not use the correct URL, now that we know it?


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## dixiedragon (May 11, 2017)

drunkonlife said:


> Thanks you guys!
> 
> Quick question. I know that to produce a 5 pound loaf (approximately), I need 51.6 oils without superfatting. Using that logic, it would be roughly 10.32 ounces per pound. Could I simply reduce my recipe that way and then adjust my percentages to ounces accordingly?


 

It's always best to run the recipe through a lye calculator. Print it off and check off each oil as you add it.

Here's my process - 
soap batter is roughly 2/3 oil and 1/3 water. 1 oz of oil (by weight) takes up the same space as 1 oz of water (by volume). This is not exact but it's good enough for this.

My mold holds 60 oz if I fill it to the tippy-top. I don't want to fill it to the tippy-top, so I calculate it as holding 54 oz - a 10% reduction. 

54 divided by 3 = 18. So, my soap will be 18 oz of water and 36 oz of oil.

When I calculate my recipe, I put in my percentages of my recipe and then put in 36 ounces for my weight. It will divide those 36 ounces among the percentages I put in.

You want to do all of your thinking and math BEFORE you start measuring and pouring. I've been lazy once or twice and though - I'll just use this printed recipe sheet and double every thing. It usually works out fine. USUALLY. But those times when I make a mistake and then have to weigh stuff and mentally backtrack to see what I didn't add - not worth it.


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## WeaversPort (May 12, 2017)

Here's my thoughts, if I had a bunch of oils and a willingness to see what happened.. 

I'd use a soap calculator and do a bunch of single oil soaps (100% Coconut, 100% Palm, 100% whatever). I'd use the recommendation to pour only an inch thick, just because I know that I'm not really in it for the full batch. I'm there to find out the properties. Plus I'd need to figure out where to cure it. 

Then I'd play with the various recipes, changing the percentages and the superfat to see how each one feels. I'd color the different batches and give them to people as a blind study to see what people like - 2%, 5%, whatever superfat. 

AND I'd use paper or yogurt cups to pour small batches of soap and test fragrance oils.. That way I can see how my various fragrances act in cold process. 

That's what I'd do.. But I can't help you on the superfat math question.. 

:bath1:


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## DianaMoon (Feb 23, 2018)

BrewerGeorge said:


> BrewerGeorge said:
> 
> 
> > Like cmzha says, lotion bar.  They're awesome and easy to make.
> ...


Is this a soap, that you mix with lye? Confused.


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## cmzaha (Feb 23, 2018)

DianaMoon said:


> Is this a soap, that you mix with lye? Confused.


If you are talking about this ^^^ No it is a lotion bar, not soap. Lotion bars are created with oils, butters, beeswax and will melt on the skin when you rub them on. They are considered an anhydrous product (all oil no water) This thread is a bit old so you would be better starting a new thread


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