# Possible LS Fubar



## KristaY (Apr 12, 2015)

I was going about my merry way adding FO to LS. Measured out 5% FO then grabbed my bottle of sodium lactate INSTEAD of PS80. I'm so blonde sometimes it amazes me. So I added the SL at 5% to the FO, and as I was pouring into the LS I realized what I had done. I stirred it together and it got thicker and thicker and thicker. I now have a beautiful, thick cream looking LS. I poured a bit off into a clear glass measuring cup to see what happens but.... Is this a complete failure or I can I save it? I haven't added the PS80 at this point because I'm a bit afraid.

I should also mention I used IrishLass's GLS recipe that includes 3% SL (of paste wt) when I diluted. So I have a bit over 5% SL.


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## Seawolfe (Apr 12, 2015)

I dunno but if SL thickens diluted LS like that ima try it too!


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## KristaY (Apr 12, 2015)

Haha, Seawolfe! I wondered if I had stumbled onto a happy accident or a stupid mistake. I dribbled a bit onto my hand and washed with it. Bubbled really well and felt nice when my hands dried. Dunno either!


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## FGOriold (Apr 12, 2015)

Since sodium lactate is a salt, it would make sense that it would thicken the same type of formulations that regular old table salt would thicken.


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

If it bubbles, and it did not zap, I would call it soap and move on.  I hardly think 2% extra SL would irrevocably FUBAR a liquid soap.


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## FGOriold (Apr 12, 2015)

I agree with Susie - the one thing to watch out for is haziness in your soap. I find that any amount of sodium added whether it be from sodium hydroxide in a mixed lye soap, using dissolved salt as part of your lye/water and even adding table salt as a thickener can lead to a haziness in liquid soap - at least in my soaps.


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## KristaY (Apr 12, 2015)

Susie said:


> If it bubbles, and it did not zap, I would call it soap and move on. I hardly think 2% extra SL would irrevocably FUBAR a liquid soap.


 
Yep to bubbles, nope to zap. But it's an extra 5% over the original 3% added with dilution water. Since that 3% was added to the 115% water it took me to get complete dilution, there's a very small amount that will end up in each bottle. I guess I wonder what 5% SL might do in the long run. Will it be drying? Will it eventually separate? Will it be irritating to skin?



FGOriold said:


> I agree with Susie - the one thing to watch out for is haziness in your soap. I find that any amount of sodium added whether it be from sodium hydroxide in a mixed lye soap, using dissolved salt as part of your lye/water and even adding table salt as a thickener can lead to a haziness in liquid soap - at least in my soaps.


 
Yes, it's hazy, but it's actually pretty. It has a very creamy, pearlescent appearance. I've never used table salt to thicken so what percentage do you use? Is my 5% SL way over the top? As I mentioned above, what might I expect down the road with this soap? When I washed my hands with it, it wasn't drying.


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## FGOriold (Apr 12, 2015)

I don't about how much sodium lactate, but I do have a 100% olive oil soap that I need to thicken and am going to try the sodium lactate to do so and see how well it works. It will be a good experiment.


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## Susie (Apr 12, 2015)

If you aren't selling it, I would not stress about it.  If you are selling it, make another batch with no SL, and mix the two together.  This is not a crisis.  This is an easy solve.  And you may have taught a few of us how to thicken liquid soap with what we have on hand...(eyes bottle of thin hand soap)


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## KristaY (Apr 12, 2015)

Thanks Susie. I was considering mixing with another batch as you suggested. This soap isn't going anywhere until I figure out what it might become in another week, month, etc. I used it in the shower this morning and it felt good, lathered well on my pouf. Not big fluffy bubbles but creamy, dense lather (which is what I prefer anyway). So I put it into a large, clear mason jar and I'll watch it for a while to see what happens. I'll also take a bit out every week or so and test the lather. It sure is nice and thick though so I may be using it routinely in future but probably at a lesser %. Since I didn't use my standard PS 80 with the FO it'll be interesting to see if it separates too. I'll keep you posted on the results as they appear!


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## KristaY (Apr 21, 2015)

I've set this aside for 10 days. In the first pic it has SL and FO only, no PS80. You can see a bit of separation, maybe 1/4" at the top but there's also some accumulation of what looks like precipitate on the sides of the glass. It's only on the sides, not throughout the main body of the soap.

In the 2nd pic I added PS80 and mixed well. It's still very cloudy and thick. I also made sure to scrape down the sides of the jar to incorporate that precipitate type accumulation. Now I'll let it sit again and see what happens next!


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 21, 2015)

You made NaOH (bar, solid) soap when you added sodium lactate. That's why you got separation. You can convert all of the LS into solid soap if you keep adding salt. Unfortunately, you can't thicken LS with salt b/c of this (it starts thick then separates). I've never thought of adding PS80 though I'm not sure it would make a difference to stop the solid soap from separating. Curious to see updates! Also, nice sounding fragrance!


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## KristaY (Apr 21, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> You made NaOH (bar, solid) soap when you added sodium lactate. That's why you got separation. You can convert all of the LS into solid soap if you keep adding salt. Unfortunately, you can't thicken LS with salt b/c of this (it starts thick then separates). I've never thought of adding PS80 though I'm not sure it would make a difference to stop the solid soap from separating. Curious to see updates! Also, nice sounding fragrance!


 
That's interesting, galaxy. I've read many people have success adding salt to thicken (at least with high OO, but not CO). I'll give the PS80 time to do it's thing and see what happens. It's been mixed for about 2 hours and I see no visual difference yet but I'm giving it a few more weeks to sit there quietly before I decide what to do next, if anything. It'll probably be another batch that goes into my soap dispenser in the garage!

The scent is really nice too! It's from Elements Bath & Body. OOB it smells exactly as it sounds - a soft, sweet patch. Once mixed in CP, LS or lotion, it becomes just sweet with only a hint of patch left. It D/C's CP soap to light brown so I added bronze mica pencil lines and it came out lovely.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 22, 2015)

Up to a point, yes, you can thicken LS with salt. In my experience, it thickens the LS without causing separation.

Some of the sodium does replace potassium in the soap, although it will never replace all of the potassium -- the chemistry doesn't work quite that neatly and completely.

In addition, the salt also alters the solubility of the soap in the surrounding liquid. The most success with salt as a thickener is when you use it with soaps high in oleic acid (olive oil). Soaps high in myristic and lauric (coconut oil) don't thicken well at all with salt. There's a "sweet spot" to find -- you can add too much salt and the LS will thin back out again.


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 22, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Up to a point, yes, you can thicken LS with salt. In my experience, it thickens the LS without causing separation.
> 
> Some of the sodium does replace potassium in the soap, although it will never replace all of the potassium -- the chemistry doesn't work quite that neatly and completely.
> 
> In addition, the salt also alters the solubility of the soap in the surrounding liquid. The most success with salt as a thickener is when you use it with soaps high in oleic acid (olive oil). Soaps high in myristic and lauric (coconut oil) don't thicken well at all with salt. There's a "sweet spot" to find -- you can add too much salt and the LS will thin back out again.



Ah, ok. I once tried to thicken even OO LS but I added too much salt, it separated. Didn't know there was a sweet spot. Thanks!

 I say you can convert it all b/c I had a failed batch of liquid soap that I wanted to recover and I did that by converting it with salt. Not at room temp though. I boiled the liquid soap in really salty water. The soap "curdles" floated to the top and I scooped them off.

ETA: quote


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## KristaY (Apr 22, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> Up to a point, yes, you can thicken LS with salt. In my experience, it thickens the LS without causing separation.
> 
> Some of the sodium does replace potassium in the soap, although it will never replace all of the potassium -- the chemistry doesn't work quite that neatly and completely.
> 
> In addition, the salt also alters the solubility of the soap in the surrounding liquid. The most success with salt as a thickener is when you use it with soaps high in oleic acid (olive oil). Soaps high in myristic and lauric (coconut oil) don't thicken well at all with salt. There's a "sweet spot" to find -- you can add too much salt and the LS will thin back out again.


 
So based on the chemistry of adding salt, do you think the 5% SL is past the "sweet spot"? I don't know the usual percentage people use when adding salt. This particular recipe was 65% OO, 25% CO and 10% castor. I suppose it would depend on the amount of oleic, myristic and lauric acids in a particular recipe?

As always, DeeAnna, you're a font of amazing info and I always learn something valuable when you share with us!


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## DeeAnna (Apr 22, 2015)

"...The soap "curdles" floated to the top and I scooped them off...."

Yep, you converted some of the soap to sodium soap and I totally agree that you were able to collect that. But what you might not have realized is a fair amount of potassium soap remained dissolved in the watery liquid you discarded (this liquid is called niger or nigre). That's why soft (potassium) soaps aren't salted out like a sodium soap, because all of the soap that is still potassium-based is lost when the curds are harvested and the niger is discarded.

If you were an old-time soapmaker making soft soap with wood-ash lye, you would have added enough sea salt to turn the soap into a not-runny paste of mixed sodium and potassium soaps and sold your soap in that form. 

"...So based on the chemistry of adding salt, do you think the 5% SL is past the "sweet spot"?..."

I really, honestly don't know that answer! I haven't done this and I don't know anyone else besides you who has done it, so there's nothing I can offer besides try it and see. You're a pioneer, Krista!

"...I don't know the usual percentage people use when adding salt. ... I suppose it would depend on the amount of oleic, myristic and lauric acids in a particular recipe?..."

I don't know the answer to that either. It's going to depend on the fatty acid distribution and also on any additives in the LS and the temperature. I think it's pretty much a trial and error thing for any given recipe, just like the dilution ratio for a LS is too.


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## KristaY (Apr 22, 2015)

Well fancy that! Me, a pioneer, lol! 

This batch that I completely messed with is still separating so it's definitely going down as a big fat goofy experiment that has failed as pretty soap but was a learning experience too. Based on the accidental thickening I got out of it, I think I may continue to experiment with SL. After I added PS80 it began to separate more and is staying cloudy (but it's only been mixed about 18 hours). I wonder if there's some kind of chemical reaction going on between the two. I'm going to make a small batch of LS and divide into several small bottles then play around with it. If nothing else, I'll have learned something in my new pioneering fashion!


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 22, 2015)

DeeAnna said:


> "
> 
> Yep, you converted some of the soap to sodium soap and I totally agree that you were able to collect that. But what you might not have realized is a fair amount of potassium soap remained dissolved in the watery liquid you discarded (this liquid is called niger or nigre). That's why soft (potassium) soaps aren't salted out like a sodium soap, because all of the soap that is still potassium-based is lost when the curds are harvested and the niger is discarded.
> 
> If you were an old-time soapmaker making soft soap with wood-ash lye, you would have added enough sea salt to turn the soap into a not-runny paste of mixed sodium and potassium soaps and sold your soap in that form.



Thanks, I had no idea that they would use a slurry! I just thought they used the top curds and compacted it into a bar. I also didn't know that all of the potassium soap didn't convert but I was guessing it was most of it, not the other way around. I need to do a bit more research on this. I'm glad you have corrected me.


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