# m & p questions



## Maythorn (Oct 19, 2012)

I would like to know if melt and pour is more ecomonical than cp with shipping and weight & all.  I tried it and I didn't think I was very good at it because there were so many bubbles.  Cp has taught me to stir, stir, stir.  And I only ever used michael's and a sample of brambleberry's that i tried to cut and it was very flinty after it hardened.  Seemed like indiviidual molds were the only way to go.   I would like to pour and cut it to look just like my other rectangle bars.

Plus, what suppliers have the best quality you feel are as outstanding and wholesome as you cp soaps?


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## sperry (Oct 19, 2012)

My sister sells CP wholesale... has for years.  She figures $1.23 a bar... BUT... I don't know if that's middle of the road or what.  She will NOT buy cheap stuff, buys in quantity where she can, and does a lot of research to keep price down.  I'm pretty sure bottom price on M&P can kick CP's butt.  SFIC sells in quantities that can get a 4 ounce bar under $.50.  (http://www.sficcorp.com/sites/default/f ... 202012.pdf)  In small quantities, figure 3 or 4 times that?  Just a guess from a newbie.


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## sperry (Oct 19, 2012)

And I have heard from posters here that Michael's M&P is garbage.  Don't know from personal experience.  (But I have also heard that Brambleberry's is great, so you should have a good cross-section.)


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## AlchemyandAshes (Oct 19, 2012)

Maythorn said:
			
		

> I would like to know if melt and pour is more ecomonical than cp with shipping and weight & all.


That depends...usually, yes, if purchased in bulk. But it all depends on what you add to it. And when compared to CP, what oils and additives were used to make the CP. It's cheaper for both to buy ingredients in bulk. M&P is USUALLY less time consuming (unless you doing the elaborate artwork type of M&P), so that figured in with the lower cost bulk base, and yes, it is usually cheaper.
Quality vs. CP? Depends on preference. I prefer CP over M&P. For me, M&P is more about looks, and CP is more about skin benefit. Either can be super creative. Some people notice a huge difference, and some don't. Some want lots of thick creamy bubbles, and some want light lather. 
_Do what YOU like to do_. There's a market out there for everyone. I'm assuming you don't plan to sell anytime soon, so take your time to figure out which works best, economically and quality-wise, for yourself.




			
				Maythorn said:
			
		

> I tried it and I didn't think I was very good at it because there were so many bubbles.  Cp has taught me to stir, stir, stir.


That stir, stir, stirring in M&P creates lots of tiny bubbles...stir gently, enough to incorporate without over doing it and creating foam on top. After you pour, spray it liberally with alcohol and that will take care of most of your bubbles.




			
				Maythorn said:
			
		

> And I only ever used michael's and a sample of brambleberry's that i tried to cut and it was very flinty after it hardened.  Seemed like indiviidual molds were the only way to go.   I would like to pour and cut it to look just like my other rectangle bars.


I have used a variety of M&P and been able to use a loaf mold, then cut into bars. Michael's M&P base is the same as a lot of economy bases that are for function and not skin benefit - just read the ingredients and you'll see a lot with the same.  I think people put their nose up at it because it's so "commercial" and from a "hobby store". 

IMO, I like WSP's Detergent Free Triple Butter Base (Sodium Cocoate, Propylene Glycol , Sodium Stearate, Glycerin, Water, Sorbitol, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea) Seed Butter, Mangifera Indica (Mango) Seed Butter, Theobroma Cacao (Cocoa) Seed Butter. ).

I also use Brambleberry's Shea Butter M&P Base (Coconut Oil, Palm Oil, Safflower Oil, Glycerin (kosher, of vegetable origin), Shea Butter (refined naturally crushed), Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Soy bean protein (conditioner), Titanium Dioxide (mineral whitener used in opaque soaps)


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## Maythorn (Oct 19, 2012)

Thank you!  I would like to see something kick olive oil's butt in price and now coconut, too, is getting up there.  I will look into this with different cos.  Symphony SCents has flat rate shipping no matter what weight of stuff you buy and the ingredients sound good.  Not so different than what I make butno lard and I don't use palm oil for eco reasons.

I just want to pour it just like my cp into mold and to same depth and then cut identical bars to what I already slave over with cp.  Should be do-able.

I'm going to re-read this thread and all.  Think it thru with Christmas coming and I want to make spice soaps with no seize--yay!


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## sperry (Oct 20, 2012)

Just a heads up.... I don't know how you cut your CP, but all the people who produce those wire cutters say that they can't cut M&P.


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## Maythorn (Oct 20, 2012)

That's what I thought because I tried wire and quit as soon as it resisted.   Didn't want to ruin my wire.   That brambleberry kind does not seem different than other suppliers'. No reason for it to be especially harder.  I would try to use my crinkle cutter and hope that would penetrate an m & p log.  Somebody on here cuts hers and they're really nice looking.  Don't look like they had to be hacked at.  I'm going to search around and see who that was who had the photos recently.


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## AlchemyandAshes (Oct 20, 2012)

I cut my M&P logs with either a straight or crinkle cutter with no problems. I usually cut when it returns to room temp and can be unmolded.


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## llineb (Oct 20, 2012)

Just research your options and remember it's about making a quality product and you can adjust your price as needed to cover your costs and labor.  I think people would rather pay more knowing they are getting a high quality soap with skin healthy ingredients.  With that being said I would stick to a company that specializes in skin products like Bramble Berry.  They make high quality products at affordable prices.  Key is to buy in bulk to save on shipping since this will go into your costs.  They make a flat rate soap base poured directly into the box for shipping so you can always know your shipping costs if you are just ordering a base.  M&P soap appeals to the a different client...one that likes fragrance and color.  I have found that most people who buy my CP tend to be looking for an all natural product with no man made ingredients and when they buy my M&P they are usually buying a gift.  I use BB and love all of their products...good luck!


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## Maythorn (Oct 20, 2012)

Thanks for all the great advice.  I'm kind of a purist I guess you'd call it and I always look for soap to be pure and beneficial.  Scent is important because that can go along with the type of bar you create.  Like doing a man's scent for a shaving soap.  Color to me is optional.  I could use white or tan bars the rest of my life and not get bored with it.

But I've looked at scents' results and so many wonderful ones act up.  You wouldn't have to worry about that with m & p and could still have a wholesome bar if from a good supplier like brambleberry or this SFIC.


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## Sanctuary (Oct 27, 2012)

I use my miter box and a really long meat cutting knife (non serated) to cut my soap.  I score where I want to cut, apply even pressure when cutting and it comes out really nice.  I used the crinkle cut one and bent it (lol).  So my set up that I use now works really nice on all types of soaps.

Sanctuary


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## Maythorn (Feb 3, 2013)

It sounds like the knife or whatever you use has to be very strong and firm as well as sharp.  It was so disappointing that time with the breaks.  I tried 4 times and even turned the loaf on its side for the last.


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## paillo (Feb 3, 2013)

SFIC is a new one to me too. Yow, I couldn't afford those minimums! I also can't see their ingredients listed. 

I mostly use Brambleberry's premium bases in the 25-lb uncut block. http://www.brambleberry.com/Bramble-Berry-Bases-C11.aspx. 

In humid months though, the big blocks tend to sweat, so my 2nd go-to is Peak's by the case, individually wrapped http://www.peakcandle.com/products/Clear-Glycerine-Melt-and-Pour-Soap-Base-CASE__MP1001C.aspx or in 10-lb increments.

Ingredients in both: Coconut Oil, Palm Oil, Safflower Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sodium Hydroxide (saponifying agent), Sorbitol (moisturizer), Sorbitan Oleate (emulsifier), and Soybean Protein (conditioner).

I too like to keep things as natural and wholesome as possible, and I can feel good about using these. Organic versions also are available, but they're too spendy for my budget.


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## paillo (Feb 3, 2013)

Maythorn said:


> It sounds like the knife or whatever you use has to be very strong and firm as well as sharp.  It was so disappointing that time with the breaks.  I tried 4 times and even turned the loaf on its side for the last.



I use a sharp taping knife from the hardware store, find that kitchen knives cut crookedly for me and the regular cutters aren't sharp enough. Crinkle cutters work great because they're sharp too, but they mess up my stamped logo


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## Maythorn (Feb 3, 2013)

Thank you for all that good information Paillo.  When I go to ACE again for lye I'll look for taping knives.  I like clear melt and pour too.  There are some scents that would just go with that look like spa scents or Cold Water I've not tried but heard it smells great and you wouldn't have to worry about seizing.  The ingredients of those I really like, no meat oil issues for people who are concerned with that.  

I have to remember to patiently let it melt all on very low in my double boiler.  Then stir very gently.  (I really stir my cp and am so used to that). It's almost the opposite because cp demands action and forceful steps often done in the nick of time.  Another pitfall was having to remelt on account of mistakes and that probably lessens the integrity of melt and pour bases.


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## Mandarin (Feb 3, 2013)

> And I have heard from posters here that Michael's M&P is garbage.


I am one who believes that Michael's MP is total garbage.  A bit over a year ago, I ran out of clear base.  My supplier could not get my base shipping in time for an order that I needed to complete. Long story short, I ended up wasting my money on lousy base with ZERO lather.  I could not bear to give this finished soap to my customer, so I contacted her and she was very understanding. Unless Michael's has changed their base in the past year, I would never recommend it in a million years.


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## lillybella (Feb 3, 2013)

Brambleberry's & Peak's bases are both SFIC bases.


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## squigglz (Feb 4, 2013)

Mandarin said:


> I am one who believes that Michael's MP is total garbage.  A bit over a year ago, I ran out of clear base.  My supplier could not get my base shipping in time for an order that I needed to complete. Long story short, I ended up wasting my money on lousy base with ZERO lather.  I could not bear to give this finished soap to my customer, so I contacted her and she was very understanding. Unless Michael's has changed their base in the past year, I would never recommend it in a million years.



It's still Life of the Party and I agree, it still sucks. I started out making soap with that and moved on VERY quickly.


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## paillo (Feb 4, 2013)

lillybella said:


> Brambleberry's & Peak's bases are both SFIC bases.



ah, good to know, thanks!!!


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