# Rapeseed Wax



## Fiona Robertson (Apr 19, 2019)

Can anyone tell me how to calculate a recipe using rapeseed wax if it doesn't have this option on the calculator? Should I just use rapeseed oil?  Many Thanks


----------



## Andrew (Apr 19, 2019)

do you have a source for the ingredient?


----------



## earlene (Apr 19, 2019)

Since it is hydrogenated rapeseed oil, it would have the same SAP value at least, so that's where I would start if I were in your place.  I have not used it myself for soap, and have not found a source that provides any stats on the FA make-up of rapeseed wax, because it is mostly sold for use in candles, melts and cosmetics.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Apr 19, 2019)

Andrew said:


> do you have a source for the ingredient?



I can give you a link to a site that gives the most information: https://mothernaturesgoodies.co.uk/...ustainable-wax-for-container-and-jar-candles/

I am a complete newbie to soap making but I thought it might be fun to try and devise a vegan soap recipe with a low carbon footprint.  As I am in the UK I am therefore looking for European grown ingredients.   I think I might have to lean towards a castile type soap   Rapeseed wax just looked like an interesting ingredient especially after reading through the really long soy wax post!!  I am learning so much on here!!


----------



## Andrew (Apr 19, 2019)

i don't know anything about the product.  i would look at olive oil pomace if you want a low carbon footprint soap.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 7, 2019)

I've been conducting some small batch experiments using (from left to right): 1) 5% rapeseed wax  2) 5% rapeseed wax with sodium lactate 3) 5% rapeseed wax with a brine solution 4) 8% rapeseed wax with sodium lactate and sugar.  They need at least another 2 weeks to cure but after a wee test run in the shower this week soaps 2 and 3 are very promising. Soap 4 is too new to test yet.  As you can see they have all formed a light soda ash which I am now off to learn how to remove...


----------



## Cin (Jun 8, 2019)

Looks promising Fiona!  And lovely colours to boot.  
I am looking forward to your results.  I just experimented with 5% Japan wax in a batch yesterday and will be unmolding today.  

Did you see any difference in reaching trace?   What temperatures were your oils and lye solution?


----------



## szaza (Jun 8, 2019)

Oh I've been wanting to experiment with waxes other than beeswax in soap, so I'm very curious to hear your results @Fiona Robertson and @Cin !


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 8, 2019)

Cin said:


> Looks promising Fiona!  And lovely colours to boot.
> I am looking forward to your results.  I just experimented with 5% Japan wax in a batch yesterday and will be unmolding today.
> 
> Did you see any difference in reaching trace?   What temperatures were your oils and lye solution?




Ooh I’ve never heard of Japan wax, would love to hear about your results.  What I am trying to find is a recipe that uses mainly European ingredients and that produces a hard and long lasting bar even though it is palm oil free and vegan… not asking for much lol!!  I read the two long threads on soy wax and did experiment with it but I found the gmo element unappealing.  So I came to rapeseed wax which is non gmo and is 100% pure wax. I had read that it is a very hard wax which is why I started out with 5%.   I followed the advice from the soy wax thread (Saranac?) to soap warm and keep the temps above 120f.  I did have to gently reheat the batter and lye mix on the cooker once or twice to maintain the temperature.  I thought the mix behaved well and took about 10 – 15 mins to get light trace although I was careful to only use a whisk rather than a stick blender after I had added the essential oils.  I poured at mid trace (temp by then between 115 – 120f) then just covered the mould with a towel.  I could unmould and cut after 18 hrs.  If I had the patience I would maybe try leaving it covered for longer in the hope that this would prevent the soda ash but it was interesting to watch the ash appear before my very eyes.  The ash is only a light covering and as an amateur metal smith I find patinas very appealing!

My recipe (which I’m happy to share if anyone is interested) has no butters and has the basic ingredients of olive oil, coconut oil, avocado oil, castor oil and the rapeseed wax.  I have then been adding the salt and sodium lactate for experimentation. After 2 weeks of curing, the lather is creamy but needs more bubbles. Today (Soapy Saturday – yay!!) I will try a new oil for better lather and definitely add some sugar.  Please note, I am a newbie and this is an experiment!! I also have a problem giving short answers


----------



## Iluminameluna (Jun 9, 2019)

Ditto on being long-winded!
I'm not exactly a newbie, having more than 25 batches under my belt, but mostly cold process (CP). 
I live in El Salvador, a place where hobbies aren't the norm, and soaping supplies don't exist. Also awareness of environmental concerns are only in a classroom setting with the very young. Plastic is everywhere, palm oil use is widespread in cooking because it's so cheap, and ppl regard artisanal products as undesirable or for use by "the lower classes", so it's an image thing to use homemade soap.
Having said all that, I myself try to use as many easy to use supplies because I've got budget constraints, at the same time I DO care about the environment.
My suggestion is to keep things as local as possible. I tried soy wax because I'd been given some, but I found it not necessary, and couldn't buy more anyway because there's no such thing here. I use whatever oil I can find because it's here. Encouraging importation also creates a carbon footprint, and if I want to start giving soap-making classes to my neighbors (a very rural and impoverished community) then I'd have to keep things cheap.
Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 10, 2019)

Iluminameluna said:


> Ditto on being long-winded!
> I'm not exactly a newbie, having more than 25 batches under my belt, but mostly cold process (CP).
> I live in El Salvador, a place where hobbies aren't the norm, and soaping supplies don't exist. Also awareness of environmental concerns are only in a classroom setting with the very young. Plastic is everywhere, palm oil use is widespread in cooking because it's so cheap, and ppl regard artisanal products as undesirable or for use by "the lower classes", so it's an image thing to use homemade soap.
> Having said all that, I myself try to use as many easy to use supplies because I've got budget constraints, at the same time I DO care about the environment.
> ...


 
Seems like we hold the same values!! I live in a small fishing community and we are hoping to set up a community hub where people can barter and exchange homegrown produce. I hope my soap will be up to standard by then


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 11, 2019)

Hello Fiona, May I ask if you managed to find the sap numbers for Rapeseed wax? I have just purchased some and like you finding it the devil to find information about. I understand that there are two types of Rapeseed oils which have different numbers however they are sold as just Rapeseed so this complicates matters too? I am waiting for a response from the company I purchased from but it is looking sketchy. If anyone else know do please shout!


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 11, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Hello Fiona, May I ask if you managed to find the sap numbers for Rapeseed wax? I have just purchased some and like you finding it the devil to find information about. I understand that there are two types of Rapeseed oils which have different numbers however they are sold as just Rapeseed so this complicates matters too? I am waiting for a response from the company I purchased from but it is looking sketchy. If anyone else know do please shout!



Hi, I'm just using the sap numbers for rapeseed oil and ignoring the iodine and INS values with fingers crossed!! I'm trying to formulate with low cleansing, high conditioning and low linoleic/linolenic...soap is still curing


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 11, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> Hi, I'm just using the sap numbers for rapeseed oil and ignoring the iodine and INS values with fingers crossed!! I'm trying to formulate with low cleansing, high conditioning and low linoleic/linolenic...soap is still curing



Thank you for that. I too am a low cleansing person ( you know what I mean!) and Rapeseed would be a good filler to make a hard soap as I too am in the UK and its from our neck of the woods. I do tmake a hard...ish soap but it means using far more expensive ingredients such as butters etc. in higher amounts than I would like. I have used Stearic also which works but if you are a Palm no, no person that's not viable unless you go the non palm stearic route! I will report back if I get a response on SAP numbers for the supplier.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 11, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Thank you for that. I too am a low cleansing person ( you know what I mean!) and Rapeseed would be a good filler to make a hard soap as I too am in the UK and its from our neck of the woods. I do tmake a hard...ish soap but it means using far more expensive ingredients such as butters etc. in higher amounts than I would like. I have used Stearic also which works but if you are a Palm no, no person that's not viable unless you go the non palm stearic route! I will report back if I get a response on SAP numbers for the supplier.



A few days ago (after reading the really long shaving soap thread) I googled stearic acid and it took me to the Soap Kitchen who have a product made from Rapeseed oil but they then call it a stearin.  I don't have room in my brain yet to investigate this...so much learning on here!!  I would love to hear the  response from your supplier


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 12, 2019)

Yes 


Fiona Robertson said:


> A few days ago (after reading the really long shaving soap thread) I googled stearic acid and it took me to the Soap Kitchen who have a product made from Rapeseed oil but they then call it a stearin.  I don't have room in my brain yet to investigate this...so much learning on here!!  I would love to hear the  response from your supplier


I had seen that and am thinking of giving it a go, but its the " derived from " which has stopped me and I think that I would need to call them to investigate further before purchasing, I wonder if it has PKO in it to harden it more?


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 12, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Yes
> 
> I had seen that and am thinking of giving it a go, but its the " derived from " which has stopped me and I think that I would need to call them to investigate further before purchasing, I wonder if it has PKO in it to harden it more?



I emailed them and here is their reply:
The product is entirely rapeseed oil derived. The “>90%” refers to the stearic acid content. Other fatty acids derived from rapeseed oil are also present in this product, making up the remaining ~10%.

They have no experience of using it for soap though only for candlemaking


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 12, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> I emailed them and here is their reply:
> The product is entirely rapeseed oil derived. The “>90%” refers to the stearic acid content. Other fatty acids derived from rapeseed oil are also present in this product, making up the remaining ~10%.
> 
> They have no experience of using it for soap though only for candlemaking



That is really interesting and helpful, I think I shall give it a go, don't suppose they mentioned a SAP number did they?


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 12, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> That is really interesting and helpful, I think I shall give it a go, don't suppose they mentioned a SAP number did they?



No sorry, that's all they told me but they were very quick in responding. i just used their contact form.  Let me know how you get on!!


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 12, 2019)

I have asked them directly what the SAP numbers are so I shall report back when I hear, fingers crossed!


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 13, 2019)

OK so I heard back from SK regarding the SAP number for their Rapeseed Stearic no palm wax and they gave me a KoH number of 0.206-0.214. Now if I wanted to use that would I go for say 0.210 to get the average and then to get the NaoH divide that by 1.403 ? which would give me a NaoH number of 0.149 well 0.149.67 to be precise.
The wax I ordered from another company which is pure Rapeseed wax made by Karax arrived but I have not heard back from the company about the SAP number, so I called Karax direct and they told me that it was pure Rapeseed without additives but they dont do a SAP value test on it so have no idea what it would be. It looks like I have reached a dead end on that one which now leaves no choice but to use the SK one I guess.


----------



## MarnieSoapien (Jun 13, 2019)

I have contacted the company I bought my RS wax from and asked about the SAP values. I'll let you know when I get an answer.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 13, 2019)

MarnieSoapien said:


> I have contacted the company I bought my RS wax from and asked about the SAP values. I'll let you know when I get an answer.



Thank you


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 13, 2019)

I'm really hoping that someone like DeeAnna comes along soon and shares some of her very fine words of wisdom


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 13, 2019)




----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 13, 2019)

MarnieSoapien said:


> I have contacted the company I bought my RS wax from and asked about the SAP values. I'll let you know when I get an answer.



Ive used the sap values for rapeseed oil and made very nice soaps although they are still quite young.  Looking at them again today I have the stearic spot issues unfortunately and as I'm definitely soaping hot I think my problem is not mixing the oils well before adding the lye and cutting too soon. So this is what I'll address next time


----------



## Rune (Jun 13, 2019)

I'm interested in this thread too, because I got my rapeseed wax today. Or actually yesterday, but I opened the package today. I got soy wax too, but I got the wrong product, so it is a soy/vegetable oil blend. The vegetable oil is palm, I found out. Well, well.

I do think that the sap. value for rapeseed wax, if it is made of 100% hydrogenated rapeseed oil, that it have to be the same as rapeseed oil. But I'm not 100% sure.

I wonder one thing. When you, Fiona Robertson, used rapesseed wax at 8%, did it thicken the soap very rapidly or did it thicken it at all? I am a little afraid of rapid thickening/seizeing, since I have experenced that many times already with a vegetable lard product I used (and luckily can't use again since they changed the recipe). Since I'm used to always go for plan B because of rapid thickening, I can somewhat handle it, but it is not very fun and I hope to avoid it. But I want to use rapeseed and soy wax, and just hope it is not that difficult to work with.

I have not made soap in ages now, because I had not the oils I needed. I did get my waxes in the end, but not without struggle. I'm sure I only got it because I complained to PayPal and requested my money back. Then the company suddenly sent it to me. They did not respond to any emails or anything. But when PayPal contacted them, then they did respond. Otherwise they would lose their money.. It is a UK company that also is linked to in this thread. So I don't think I will recommend them. But maybe others have better experience with them than I have.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 13, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> Ive used the sap values for rapeseed oil and made very nice soaps although they are still quite young.  Looking at them again today I have the stearic spot issues unfortunately and as I'm definitely soaping hot I think my problem is not mixing the oils well before adding the lye and cutting too soon. So this is what I'll address next time



The numbers seem to be all over the place, the oil listed on " Soapee for example gives Rapeseed which they also call Canola and which we are not using here as KoH 0.175 & NaoH 0.125 SK have given me a KoH between 0.206 to 0.214 and and you saw I came up with an NaoH number of 0.149 basing this on 0.210 average, so all very different. I dont know if this would affect that you are having stearic spots even after soaping hot? and I dont know if my calculations a completely flawed as maths is not one of my strongest points. I do HP so stearic spots are not usually an issue with me, but I do need to know what the blooming numbers are.

i have contacted Karax to tell them that they should do a sap valuation on their wax as many soapers are looking for alternatives to Soy, they said that they would pass it on upwards, so watch this space!!!!


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 13, 2019)

Rune said:


> I'm interested in this thread too, because I got my rapeseed wax today. Or actually yesterday, but I opened the package today. I got soy wax too, but I got the wrong product, so it is a soy/vegetable oil blend. The vegetable oil is palm, I found out. Well, well.
> 
> I do think that the sap. value for rapeseed wax, if it is made of 100% hydrogenated rapeseed oil, that it have to be the same as rapeseed oil. But I'm not 100% sure.
> 
> ...



Hi Rune, No i found the soap batter behaved really well and at both 5% and 8% the mixing took 15 to 20 mins to reach trace but i was very light with the stick blender.  I kept it warm though and put it back on the stove if the temp fell below 120f. Although my soapy experiments are still very young and wont reach 4 weeks for another week, I am already thinking that 8% isn't necessary and to stick with 5% or even less.  3% will be my next try.  I got my rapeseed wax from Livemoor who have confirmed that it is foodgrade so suitable for cosmetics.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 13, 2019)

Fiona I suspect that the wax you purchases is the Kerax 1175 pure rapeseed wax and the very one I have been discussing as i notice that Livemoor waxes appear to be mostly Kerax.


----------



## MarnieSoapien (Jun 13, 2019)

Rune said:


> I am a little afraid of rapid thickening/seizeing, since I have experenced that many times already with a vegetable lard product I used (and luckily can't use again since they changed the recipe). Since I'm used to always go for plan B because of rapid thickening, I can somewhat handle it, but it is not very fun and I hope to avoid it. But I want to use rapeseed and soy wax, and just hope it is not that difficult to work with.


I made 7 or 8 batches using the RS wax with 10-20% usage and struggled with it quite a bit, experiencing thickening and seizing and a lot of ash on my finished products. I would recommend starting below 10% and be prepared to work hot. The RS wax I have has a melting point of 62 C and when I added my cooled lye water it would start to solidify. All of my plans for pretty swirls went out the window as I plopped it into the mold. 

I also noticed that the cured soap felt very gritty and was overly drying. I was super frustrated and took a break from my RS wax experiments. The wax I have leftover is cosmetic grade, so I might make a few test batches (at a much lower rate) for lip balms. Best of luck to you all and I hope you have better results than I did!!


----------



## earlene (Jun 13, 2019)

Rune said:


> I do think that the sap. value for rapeseed wax, if it is made of 100% hydrogenated rapeseed oil, that it have to be the same as rapeseed oil. But I'm not 100% sure.


IF the rapeseed wax is merely hydrogenated rapeseed oil without additional FAs, however the company gave here a different SAP value AND also said that the fatty acid Stearic is >90% (derived from rapeseed).  (Fiona's post.)

If we look up the SAP value of Stearic Acid, that explains the difference of the SAP value.  Stearic Acid alone has a much higher SAP value.  Because rapeseed wax has such a high stearic acid content, it also is going to have a higher SAP value, as well as carry with it all the aspects of stearic acid in the soap.

*Fiona*, your numbers look good to me.  Without even doing the math myself, looking at this list on Soap Calc, I can see that oils with a similar SAP value for KOH have corresponding SAP value within the range of the number you came up with for NaOH.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 13, 2019)

earlene said:


> IF the rapeseed wax is merely hydrogenated rapeseed oil without additional FAs, however the company gave here a different SAP value AND also said that the fatty acid Stearic is >90% (derived from rapeseed).  (Fiona's post.)
> 
> If we look up the SAP value of Stearic Acid, that explains the difference of the SAP value.  Stearic Acid alone has a much higher SAP value.  Because rapeseed wax has such a high stearic acid content, it also is going to have a higher SAP value, as well as carry with it all the aspects of stearic acid in the soap.
> 
> *Fiona*, your numbers look good to me.  Without even doing the math myself, looking at this list on Soap Calc, I can see that oils with a similar SAP value for KOH have corresponding SAP value within the range of the number you came up with for NaOH.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 13, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Fiona I suspect that the wax you purchases is the Kerax 1175 pure rapeseed wax and the very one I have been discussing as i notice that Livemoor waxes appear to be mostly Kerax.



Yes it is, they just sent me the COA and SDS certificates!!


----------



## Rune (Jun 13, 2019)

Thank you Fiona, Marnie and Earlene. Now I know much more.

I think I will try rapeseed wax at 10-15% and soap hot, and see how it goes. I need it to be somewhat high, because I have no other hard oils available to me except from coconut oil (which they say is brittle an not hard). I have soy/palm wax (NatureWax C1), but I want to make separate batches to see how each wax performs before I try to mix the soy/palm with rapeseed.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 13, 2019)

Rune said:


> Thank you Fiona, Marnie and Earlene. Now I know much more.
> 
> I think I will try rapeseed wax at 10-15% and soap hot, and see how it goes. I need it to be somewhat high, because I have no other hard oils available to me except from coconut oil (which they say is brittle an not hard). I have soy/palm wax (NatureWax C1), but I want to make separate batches to see how each wax performs before I try to mix the soy/palm with rapeseed.



The only hard oil I had in  my recipes was between 18 and 20% coconut oil. The rest were soft oils (avacado or apricot kernal) with between 50 to 60% olive oil.  All recipes had 5 or 8% wax and then I was experimenting with adding sugar, brine and sodium lactate.  Because i had so much olive oil I set superfat at 3% with a 2:1 water to lye ratio.  I'm going with less wax the next time so I would be interested to see how you get on with 10 - 15%.  Its the waiting that's so hard!!  

I would also like to add that I am too inexperienced to know whether i have stearic spots or if its the wire cutter.  Cutting with the wire leaves bumps but cutting again with a smooth knife leaves the surface smooth but i can still see tiny white dots in the soap.   There's definitely no zap.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 13, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> The only hard oil I had in  my recipes was between 18 and 20% coconut oil. The rest were soft oils (avacado or apricot kernal) with between 50 to 60% olive oil.  All recipes had 5 or 8% wax and then I was experimenting with adding sugar, brine and sodium lactate.  Because i had so much olive oil I set superfat at 3% with a 2:1 water to lye ratio.  I'm going with less wax the next time so I would be interested to see how you get on with 10 - 15%.  Its the waiting that's so hard!!
> 
> I would also like to add that I am too inexperienced to know whether i have stearic spots or if its the wire cutter.  Cutting with the wire leaves bumps but cutting again with a smooth knife leaves the surface smooth but i can still see tiny white dots in the soap.   There's definitely no zap.



Sounds like you have air bubbles Fiona, this problem was covered somewhere and I cannot remember where, sorry but it was noted and pictures shown also that wire cutting showed the bubbles as bumps but knife cutting not nearly so noticeable and not bumpy. That person also thought it was stearic spots too but found it to be air bubbles. I will post if I find where I saw that.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 13, 2019)

Aha I found it this is a soapers blog and it covers lots of trouble shooting, you need to scroll down to cutting problems to find the white spots in my soap problem.
https://thenerdyfarmwife.com/troubleshooting-cold-process-soap-problems/


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 13, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Aha I found it this is a soapers blog and it covers lots of trouble shooting, you need to scroll down to cutting problems to find the white spots in my soap problem.
> https://thenerdyfarmwife.com/troubleshooting-cold-process-soap-problems/



Aha!!  Thanks for that! My soap looks exactly like the second picture and here's me thinking that I was being really good at not using the stick blender too much


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 14, 2019)

Ive just written a nice email to Kerawax too so maybe if they think there is a demand they'll do the test for the information


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 14, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> Ive just written a nice email to Kerawax too so maybe if they think there is a demand they'll do the test for the information



Excellent!!! I am sure that with a bit of interest they will


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 14, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Excellent!!! I am sure that with a bit of interest they will



I got the same reply as you but i did notice that the email had been copied to a lot of people so maybe they'll think about it.   Ive asked them to let me know if they reconsider.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 21, 2019)

Here’s some pics of my rapeseed wax test soaps at a very young 4 weeks. The only hard oils used were coconut oil with the exception of recipe 1 that used a small amount of shea butter.  Using small cubes of this soap in the shower, all three soaps remained hard and held up well to just being dumped on the shower shelf without a drainage rack.  We are a sporty family of three who shower at least twice a day so the small cubes lasted all week which is equivalent to our usual full bar of commercial soap. Soap no 1 was the softest and formed a mush around a harder inner core. The other soaps remained firm and the soap with the brine had the best lather.  The lather is creamy but as you can see there is room for improvement.  I am wondering if reducing the wax will increase the lather so I will try 3% wax with a brine solution and a bit of sugar. I don’t think its necessary to go above 5% with these mainly soft oil recipes but I will report back soon on how my 8% wax recipe fares. I have very dry hands but using this soap at the sink I have not needed hand cream and my family liked them. I didn’t get any graininess that MarnieSoapien reported but all batches got light soda ash.  I think these are nice economical soaps that are gentle on the skin.  I don’t know how difficult it will be to make larger batches and maintain the heat at above 120f.  Recipes used are in next post…


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 21, 2019)

-


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 21, 2019)

Fiona thank you for this it is very interesting indeed. I have not yet got my head around the percentages of the oils you have used so can't comment on what I think about the performance at those levels but its interesting to note that you say the batch with the brine had a better lather yet usually I understand that salt tends to reduce lather somewhat and sugar will help increase it a little. I was hoping that the Rapeseed wax would give a better lather and perhaps have a stearic type performance which is doesn't look as though it does.  I am hoping soon to do an experiment to try it out.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 21, 2019)

(Continued from above post)
*Recipe One 5% wax + Shea Butter: (bottom soap, yellow)*

Olive oil 8.8oz (55%), Coconut oil 2.4 oz (15%), Avacado Oil 2.4oz (15 %), Shea Butter 0.8oz (5%), Castor Oil 0.8 oz (5%), Rapeseed wax 0.8 oz (5%)

*Recipe Two 5% Rapeseed Wax + Sodium Lactate (middle Soap Greenish):*

Olive Oil 9.6oz (60%), Coconut Oil 3.2 oz (20%), Avacado oil 1.6 oz (10%), Castor Oil 0.8 oz (5%), Rapeseed Wax 0.8oz (5%), Sodium Lactate 1tspn

*Recipe Three 5% Rapeseed Wax + brine (top soap, peach)*

Olive Oil 9.6 oz (60%), Coconut Oil 3.2 oz (20%), Avacado Oil 1.6 oz (10%), Castor Oil 0.8 oz (5%), Rapeseed Wax 0.8 oz (5%), Brine Solution

all have 2:1 water to lye ratio with 3% superfat


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 21, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Fiona thank you for this it is very interesting indeed. I have not yet got my head around the percentages of the oils you have used so can't comment on what I think about the performance at those levels but its interesting to note that you say the batch with the brine had a better lather yet usually I understand that salt tends to reduce lather somewhat and sugar will help increase it a little. I was hoping that the Rapeseed wax would give a better lather and perhaps have a stearic type performance which is doesn't look as though it does.  I am hoping soon to do an experiment to try it out.



Yes, sorry was getting tied up in knots trying to set out recipes in a table then it deleted somehow so hopefully next post is clearer!!


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 21, 2019)

Well thank you and even more interesting especially with your 20% CO. So do you think that the rapeseed wax actually reduces lather in a similar way that bees wax does. I was going to have a go with a really big dollop (% to yet be determined) of the rapeseed wax to see what happened.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jun 21, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Well thank you and even more interesting especially with your 20% CO. So do you think that the rapeseed wax actually reduces lather in a similar way that bees wax does. I was going to have a go with a really big dollop (% to yet be determined) of the rapeseed wax to see what happened.



It would be good to compare a 3% to your high one!  I was thinking that it maybe does behave more like beeswax.  I wonder how Rune got on...he was going to use quite a high amount too.  The lather at 5% does feel nice and is not draggy or squeaky but its not as dense as some pictures Ive seen on here using 'traditional' ingredients.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jun 21, 2019)

I will report back when!


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jul 5, 2019)

Update…  I have noticed that at a 7 week cure, when I cut my small test bars in half, the centre still feels a bit tacky.  Maybe the rapeseed wax makes dense molecules (is this the right sciency word?) which require a good long cure?  Or… maybe it’s because I live in Scotland where there is always a lot of moisture in the air!!  With this in mind, yesterday I made a full sized batch (32oz for my one and only mould lol) with a 1.5 :1 water to lye ratio.  Surprisingly the soap batter still took an age to come to trace but was nice and solid in just a few hours after sitting covered on top of a heated seed mat.   I have also now made a batch with just 3% wax but its not even a week old yet so I will wait a while before reporting on that one.  Oh yes, before I forget, the 3% wax recipe has no soda ash and the big water discount one has none so far either.  All the other ones developed a light coat of soda ash (5% wax at 33% lye) as soon as I took them out the moulds and the two batches with 8% wax had the most ash so…more wax = more ash.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jul 6, 2019)

I am out of the U.K. for a month right now but just before leaving I decided to make a tester batch with the rapeseed wax @ 27% . Well when it came to mixing the lye I found that I had hardly any and so had to adjust the recipe to fit the lye as nowhere in the vicinity had any lye at all! I think it isn’t being sold in the shops at the moment due to new laws because of acid attacks etc. Anyhow I did manage to scale it and it was a tiny batch, it was stove top HP with a 27 lye concentration. It took forever to trace, I actually thought that it may never trace but in the end it did with a good bit of stick blending. Once it was in the moulds ( silicone cavity) it hardened fast and was able to pop out in a few hours. Have left it to cure and will be able to see how it is in August, but on washing up the pans etc. I was not impressed with the lather at all, not like my normal HP which lathers amazingly right after making when washing up the implements and residue left in the pot. I shall report back when it’s time to test!


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jul 6, 2019)

oh dear, looks like I'm the only one who likes it so far.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jul 6, 2019)

Am hoping there will be huge transformation after cure time and that it will be the go to ingredient! We shall see.


----------



## MarnieSoapien (Jul 6, 2019)

I might like it if I scale back the amount of RS wax. Personally, I found 10% to be too high.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jul 6, 2019)

MarnieSoapien said:


> I might like it if I scale back the amount of RS wax. Personally, I found 10% to be too high.


And lather?


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jul 6, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> Am hoping there will be huge transformation after cure time and that it will be the go to ingredient! We shall see.



Did you get lots of bubbles?


----------



## MarnieSoapien (Jul 6, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> And lather?


The lather is alright. Not overly conditioning or slimy at all. The bubbles are small but there seems to be a good amount.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jul 6, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> Did you get lots of bubbles?


As I said not on washing up the pots etc. But will have to wait until August to test it, hopefully the cure time improve matters but am not overly hopeful really, not sure sure it’s going to be the magic ingredient I was hoping for but I might be wrong so we have to wait!


----------



## MarnieSoapien (Jul 6, 2019)

Here's a picture of the soap I made using 10% RS wax and 20% shea butter. If you're interested in the full recipe, I can post it.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jul 6, 2019)

sorry i didn't explain myself properly...I meant bubbles in the soap as in the picture below.  I'm still having problems despite trying all the usual tricks and am wondering if its because I'm having to soap hot because of the wax.  I hope your month out of the UK is a holiday and you have a great time!!


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jul 6, 2019)

MarnieSoapien said:


> Here's a picture of the soap I made using 10% RS wax and 20% shea butter. If you're interested in the full recipe, I can post it. View attachment 40151



Yes I'm interested!!


----------



## gloopygloop (Jul 6, 2019)

MarnieSoapien said:


> Here's a picture of the soap I made using 10% RS wax and 20% shea butter. If you're interested in the full recipe, I can post it. View attachment 40151


Thank you that is interesting and looks a little like the lather I got when washing up the pots, I usually get much more abundant lather even at 15% CO so I am thinking that RS was could be a dampener? I used both CB and SB at 10% each I think but don’t have recipe in front of me right now and am away from home.


----------



## MarnieSoapien (Jul 7, 2019)

The recipe I used was:
CO 25%
OO 25%
Shea 20%
Sweet Almond Oil 15%
Rapeseed Wax 10%
Castor 5%
With the other batches I've made and tested with RS wax, I've noticed the soap cracks after some time in the shower.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jul 7, 2019)

MarnieSoapien said:


> The recipe I used was:
> CO 25%
> OO 25%
> Shea 20%
> ...



Oh that's interesting, I just put an 8% wax bar in the shower yesterday so I will watch for cracking.  I haven't experienced this with the other bars.  This one also has sugar in which has boosted its lather.


----------



## gloopygloop (Jul 7, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> sorry i didn't explain myself properly...I meant bubbles in the soap as in the picture below.  I'm still having problems despite trying all the usual tricks and am wondering if its because I'm having to soap hot because of the wax.  I hope your month out of the UK is a holiday and you have a great time!!
> 
> View attachment 40152


Yes am chilling out!
What does seem to be coming out of this is that the RSW is probably not going to be a replacement for SW and this does sadden me. 
Marnisoapien do you think that the high SB content dampened the lather somewhat, I find it does tend to in higher amounts.


----------



## Fiona Robertson (Jul 7, 2019)

I have just had my second shower with the 8% wax and after careful evaluation () I do not care for it as much as the 5% bars.  I am thinking that it is best to treat the wax in a similar way to beeswax.  It feels to me that more wax makes the lather feel 'heavy', bordering on slimy although I have used a lot of olive oil.  I also found the 8% to be just a tad  drying on the skin.  I really like the 5% bars and with the addition of some sugar and a play around with the superfat I will enjoy using these soaps.  Enjoy your holidays!!


----------



## gloopygloop (Jul 7, 2019)

Fiona Robertson said:


> I have just had my second shower with the 8% wax and after careful evaluation () I do not care for it as much as the 5% bars.  I am thinking that it is best to treat the wax in a similar way to beeswax.  It feels to me that more wax makes the lather feel 'heavy', bordering on slimy although I have used a lot of olive oil.  I also found the 8% to be just a tad  drying on the skin.  I really like the 5% bars and with the addition of some sugar and a play around with the superfat I will enjoy using these soaps.  Enjoy your holidays!!


That is most interesting, funny when you say slimy as I noticed a lot of slimy feeling when washing up the soap pot, nothing I have ever had before with any soap oils or waxes, it wasn’t the Castile sort either so will wait to see if it’s the same in the cured bars.
Am indeed enjoying the chill out!


----------



## gloopygloop (Aug 9, 2019)

At last an update on my rapeseed wax soap as its now over 4 weeks cure and I am able to use it.
Recipe had 27% RSW the rest made up of OO and butters and 18% CO. I used duel lye using 5% NaOH plus SL.
As said previously it took forever and a day to trace, this was a tiny batch and stove top HP. Also as stated previously it was slimy to wash up pots with very little lather so I was not expecting much.
Soap is in fact better than I thought it would be, lather is thin and milky / lotion like, the bar is nice and hard. The wash off feel is slightly waxy but not emollient like I am able to achieve with other oils. So conclusion is I am not a fan at all of this, rapeseed wax could be an interesting inclusion for CPers to slow down trace for swirling but other than that so far it seems it isn't bringing much to the party and I think stearic for me would be preferable. I haven't tried hydrogenated rapeseed oil which is mostly what Trex cooking shortening is made from but might give that a try to see how it performs.


----------



## Rune (Aug 9, 2019)

@gloopygloop This was very interesting to read. I had the same experience, very slow trace and so on. Mine is not even cut yet, so I am exited to try it after a cure (not that I have patience to wait 4 weaks, but I will at least wait a few days). I used 30% rapeseed wax, 5% soy wax, 15% CO, 45% OO, 5% castor. I also did dual lye (I always use that). I really liked/loved that I finally got a fluid batter, very fluid. But if it doesn't make a good soap, well then I guess I have to use soy wax instead. We'll see.

It would have been perfect if your rapeseed wax soap was totally amazing, but the world seems to be anything but perfect. If it soaps too good to be true, it usually is. I have had suspicious thoughts about my soap, because the fluid batter I got, it was really too good to be true. At least around here.

I think I will find a use for rapeseed wax, even if it doesn't make fabulous soap. It probably is a very good ingredient to slow down trace, as you said. And I need such things.

Now I am so curious. What if I cut off a piece of my soap and run to the bathroom.... Let's do it!

I will come back and tell what I think of it (I probably should not think anything, since it is not even cut yet).


----------



## Rune (Aug 9, 2019)

Hmm. What to think about that.... Okey, first I had some oils at the bottom (I unmolded the leftovers that was scraped into one of the large mixing cups. It became a big soap). I guess that oil inhibited the lather. I washed 4 times in a row, no lather first but and got better and better lather each time. But, it does not lather very well. It does not feel like a soap made with hard oils. It feels like a soft oil soap. If I had not used dual lye, it would probably be like castile soap. So that was disappointing.

On the positive side, it does feel extremely conditioning. I mean, as mild and conditioning as it possibly can be.

I know it is not a very accurate test at all to unmold by the sink and use it right away. I suspect it needs a long cure, probably minimum 8 weaks to improve.

The bottom line is that I'm both disappointed and quite happy at the same time. It is definately an ingredient that slows trace and up the conditioning factor. On the other hand, it can not replace hard oils or soy wax. I'm sure I will use rapeseed wax in the future, probably in every batch. But the main hard oil will be soy wax and not rapeseed wax.

I'm glad I tested it in such high amount, and that you did the same. Or well, you tested the finished soap as it should be done, I did the opposite (but it give me an indicator on what to expect). But we both soaped with it in high amounts and found out that it is marvellous for its ability to make soaping easy. Or well, for me it was so fluid when poured that it did run behind the wax cloth lining. That have of course never happened before with my always thick pudding like batters. 

(If someone wonders, my CP soap is not at all caustic at this early stage, it is perfectly safe to use. It is more than gelled. In fact it is overheated by stupid me popping it in the oven).


----------



## gloopygloop (Aug 9, 2019)

Thank you Rune for that experiment, it looks like we have some similar results here. My batter was also very fluid but I did use a hight water % as it was stove top HP and a very small size batch, plus the SL also added to the fluidity but then my HP is usually very fluid anyhow. I find it interesting that you felt some conditioning which to be honest I don't, maybe the soy wax is helping but then I used 10% cocoa butter and 5% shea butter but still dont feel much in the way of emollience, this could change with age of course, I shall keep some back for that reason.


----------



## Rune (Aug 9, 2019)

I did also use high water (I normally don't do that). Our rapeseed wax can be made differently, and our recipes are not the same. Yours is cured while mine was barely unmolded. We probably have different water in our sinks, I have soft water and you have maybe hard, perhaps that makes a difference too. Mine had oils weaping out due to overheating, maybe that oils made it extra conditioning? And maybe it will not be conditioning anymore after curing. 

I have used higher amounts of shea butter before, and I don't think it is conditioning in the same way. I felt the rapeseed wax gave more of an olive oil feeling type of thing, without the slimy lather (it is a very long time ago since I made a 100% olive oil soap, so might be very wrong about that).

I will try to create a new recipe, where I lower the rapeseed wax to perhaps 20% and use soy wax at perhaps 30%, + more coconut and more castor, and fill up the rest with olive oil. And also add kaolin clay and increasing the KOH percentage from 6 to perhaps 8%. And not use quite as high water amount. And for sure not popping it in the oven. Something like that. I don't have other hard oils available other than coconut oil, so I will just let the waxes play that role instead. I do think I need to order some shea butter, actually. I did really like how soap with shea butter feels.

My big round soap I tested now, is safely stucked away for curing. It will be a great shower soap, because of the size. I had quite a lot of leftover, since I used the same amount of oils that I have been using, 1000 grams. The extra high water amount (30% lye solution) made lots of leftover. I knew it would happen, so that was fine. I wanted an extra bar for the shower.


----------



## Rune (Aug 9, 2019)

gloopygloop said:


> That is most interesting, funny when you say slimy as I noticed a lot of slimy feeling when washing up the soap pot, nothing I have ever had before with any soap oils or waxes, it wasn’t the Castile sort either so will wait to see if it’s the same in the cured bars.
> Am indeed enjoying the chill out!



Here the answer to our differences probably is, you cured vs uncured soap. Yes, a sort of a slimy feeling, I would say that too, but not the castile sort of slimy either. It became less slimy the more I washed with it. Maybe I misunderstood that slightly slimy feeling to be conditioning. I feel it is, but maybe it isn't.

When you tested your soap it was cured, I tested at the same level of curing as when you did the dishes. You felt it was slimy-ish then, but not after a cure. Mine will probably also change in that direction after 4 weeks.


----------



## gloopygloop (Aug 9, 2019)

Your likening to castile soap was a good example there is a similarity but without the slime, a thin milky lather which does not feel luxurient. I really do not like the waxy rinse off feel a sort of grippy feeling on the skin but I can't say that my skin feels dryer or itchy but it doesn't feel as nice as it does with all of my other recipes. I have very hard water by the way so that does affect the lather a little and I would expect less lather than a soft water area.


----------



## Rune (Aug 9, 2019)

Yes, thin milky lather and waxy rinse off, exactly how mine is too. No, I don't find it luxurient at all. My other soaps are, those with shea butter. But I feel this soap is conditioning like soft oils. But not luxurious, no. At least not yet.

My skin feels quite nice afterwards, but it may have come from the oils that were at the bottom of the soap due to overheating in a plastic container. Those oils ended up on my skin first, and probably did something, perhaps.


----------



## gloopygloop (Aug 9, 2019)

I did superheat at 5% by the way but still it doesn't feel amazing!


----------



## Anglezarke (Aug 23, 2019)

I'd be interested for sure.  Incidentally, Kerax are based in my own town, as are Droyt.


----------



## kellyjones (Nov 25, 2020)

gloopygloop said:


> OK so I heard back from SK regarding the SAP number for their Rapeseed Stearic no palm wax and they gave me a KoH number of 0.206-0.214. Now if I wanted to use that would I go for say 0.210 to get the average and then to get the NaoH divide that by 1.403 ? which would give me a NaoH number of 0.149 well 0.149.67 to be precise.
> The wax I ordered from another company which is pure Rapeseed wax made by Karax arrived but I have not heard back from the company about the SAP number, so I called Karax direct and they told me that it was pure Rapeseed without additives but they dont do a SAP value test on it so have no idea what it would be. It looks like I have reached a dead end on that one which now leaves no choice but to use the SK one I guess.


What do you think of this post, they talk about Stearic acid and hydrogenated waxes, which is what Karax Rapeseed is.




__





						The confusing world of "natural waxes" in cosmetics (Part I) - Swettis Beauty Blog
					





					skinchakra.eu


----------

