# Do I need a Preservative?



## BayBoy (Sep 27, 2017)

Hey there. 

So I produced an aftershave (splash) product that I love and use all the time. I  would like to try my hand at selling it, but it contains 25% grain  alcohol. And I don't think it would be legal to sell or ship it (unless I had a liquor  license) - even though you'd be crazy to drink this stuff! 

I do have an alternative formula that uses 50% witch hazel and 50% distilled water as the only two ingredients other than the EOs. 

My concern however is that EO will go rancid or the solution will become polluted in some other way without the alcohol. It's probably 7% alcohol at most. 

Do I need to use a preservative? If so, which would be best? I've heard grape seed extract is a good option. But I'm kind of a blank slate when it comes to preservatives other than alcohol.

Cheers!


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## dixiedragon (Sep 27, 2017)

It's actually grapefruit seed extract (GSE) and it's been widely disproven as a preservative. Apparently the person who originally recommended with and had good results with it was using a brand that container a preservative - so it did work, but because of the added preservative. Pure GSE doesn't work.

Can you use some kind of non-food-safe alcohol, such as rubbing alcohol?


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## Cellador (Sep 27, 2017)

I think any time you use water in a product, you need to use a preservative. Especially if it's a product that will be used on the face.
GSE is not a preservative- it is an antioxidant. It's helpful for extending the life of oils and butters, but it will not prevent the growth of yeast, bacteria, or mold.
Have you checked-out SwiftCraftyMonkey? The site has a ton of information on formulating products, including toners and such.


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## BayBoy (Sep 27, 2017)

Hi and thanks for clarifying. I could, but I'm trying to make a natural product and rubbing alcohol contains poisonous additives.

This product:
https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/featured-aftershave-ogallala-bay-rum.204807/

Their only ingredients are witch hazel and distilled water. The only alcohol, according to the manufacturer, comes from the witch hazel and the product is less than 5% alc. The difference I suppose is that they use fragrance oil whereas I'm using EO.


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## Obsidian (Sep 27, 2017)

Just because someone else is selling a none preserved product doesn't mean you should too. The aftershave could be good without preservative but all it takes is one bad bottle full of bacteria to make someone sick, why take the risk? 

Use a preservative, to protect yourself and your customers. I'd never buy any bath products without preservatives and I would not support any company that sells them.


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## jcandleattic (Sep 27, 2017)

Personally I think anything that has water in it, around it, will be used near it, etc., etc., should contain a good preservative.


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## BayBoy (Sep 27, 2017)

That would seem to make sense,  but they sell their product as is on Amazon and it sells like hotcakes.  They must have sold 10s of 1ks of bottles.

I did email them ans  asked, "how does it stay preserved though if there's so little alcohol?"  Their reply: "I don't actually know the       answer to that... but it hasn't been a problem..."

Having  said that, could you or someone recommend a good preservative? I've read  that vitamin E is a good option. I've also read that it's inadequate.

Has anyone here used Optiphen?


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## jcandleattic (Sep 27, 2017)

BayBoy said:


> That would seem to make sense,  but they sell their product as is on Amazon and it sells like hotcakes.  They must have sold 10s of 1ks of bottles.
> 
> I did email them ans  asked, "how does it stay preserved though if there's so little alcohol?"  Their reply: "I don't actually know the       answer to that... but it hasn't been a problem..."
> 
> ...



Vitamin E is not a preservative, only an antioxidant. 

This is my resource when researching good preservatives, but others may chime in with what works for them: 

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/p/preservatives.html


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## Kittish (Sep 27, 2017)

BayBoy said:


> That would seem to make sense,  but they sell their product as is on Amazon and it sells like hotcakes.  They must have sold 10s of 1ks of bottles.
> 
> I did email them ans  asked, "how does it stay preserved though if there's so little alcohol?"  Their reply: "I don't actually know the       answer to that... but it hasn't been a problem..."
> 
> ...



Vitamin E is another one that's not a preservative. It's an antioxident. Totally different things. Antioxidents won't do a darn thing to prevent the growth of mold, fungi, or bacteria. The ONLY thing they do is help inhibit rancidity in oils.

So... based on the response of the people selling this product, they've probably not done adequate testing. And as has been mentioned, all it takes is ONE problem (and expensive lawsuit) to shut a company like that down. Protect yourself and your prospective customers. Use a preservative.

Oh, and selling on Amazon is no guarantee of quality. Amazon is only a broker, and I don't think they care much what they move through so long as they get their cut. Take a look at all the known listings for fake EOs if you doubt.


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## BayBoy (Sep 27, 2017)

I see your point, though that company's been around for almost 10 years. 

It's frustrating because I like my product as is with grain alcohol. There are SO many people on Etsy selling identical products literally listing vodka, bourbon and spiced rum in their ingredients.


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## jcandleattic (Sep 27, 2017)

BayBoy said:


> I see your point, though that company's been around for almost 10 years.
> 
> It's frustrating because I like my product as is with grain alcohol. There are SO many people on Etsy selling identical products literally listing vodka, bourbon and spiced rum in their ingredients.



As others have said, just because they are doing it, and seemingly getting away  with it (10 years in business or not) doesn't mean they are doing it right. 

I'd rather be in compliance, and make an outstanding SAFE product that people will return for time and time again, than to do it without the proper ingredients (aka preservative) and always wonder when or who is going to sue me for them geting bacteria/mold/ickys on or in them and having a horrible reaction. 

Yes, that is the extreme, but extreme or not, it CAN happen, and we live in a litigious world these days, so it's just better to practice GMP and CYA.


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## Kittish (Sep 27, 2017)

I found a list of FDA approved denaturants for alcohol, you might find something on it that you can use, so you can keep the alcohol formulation AND be in compliance with federal regs. Here's the link: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/21.151


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## IrishLass (Sep 27, 2017)

BayBoy said:


> Hi and thanks for clarifying. I could, but I'm trying to make a natural product and rubbing alcohol contains poisonous additives.
> 
> This product:
> https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/featured-aftershave-ogallala-bay-rum.204807/
> ...


 
From what I've been able to find out after conducting an online search of Ogallala approved vendor sites that sell their product line, the listed ingredients on their bottles of Bay Rum aftershave state "Witch Hazel, Purified Water, Alcohol, Bay Rum Fragrance Oil", although I did find an online review that featured a picture of the product that listed these ingredients: "Witch Hazel, Alcohol, Bay Rum Fragrance Oil". The reviewer on that site warned his readers that there's a good amount of alcohol in it and to expect a powerful burning sensation from it. That tells me that the alcohol is a separate ingredient from the witch hazel, and that there's a much more substantial amount of it in there than 5% if it's causing a powerful burning sensation.

In comparison, on the bottle of their Bay Rum Cologne, the listed ingredients state "Witch Hazel (including alcohol), Purified Water, Bay Oil, and oils of Clove Bud, Lime, Sage, Rosemary, Ginger, Orange, Cinnamon Leaf and Wintergreen". Unlike their aftershave, it sounds like the only alcohol present in their cologne is from the witch hazel. As a customer, I would not buy a cologne with just those ingredients in it unless I was going to store it in the fridge and plan on using it up within a certain amount of time.

I'm all for making a product as natural as possible, but I've learned to appreciate good preservation methods. I won't name names, but 15 years ago or so I used to buy a nationally-known, popular line of B&B products from the health-food store that proudly stated they only used grapefruit seed extract as a preservative. I liked the products well enough, but I found that they would always separate and start smelling 'off' way before the expiration date had run out. Back then, I didn't know enough to have a clue as to why that would be, but I definitely know now and have since stopped using their products. 


IrishLass


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## BayBoy (Sep 27, 2017)

Thanks IrishLass!

The company has confirmed on multiple occasions that the only alc in their aftershave is from the witch hazel. And that it's specifically less than 5%. 

About the stinging - I emailed them with the same question. They claim the sting is from the oil.

I do believe the stinging sensation can be caused by the oils and misinterpreted for alcohol. I've made batches with no alcohol and just oil as a test and some oils (like allspice) burn like a SOB. (That said, they're not using EO, just FO - but they claim FOs can sting too).

But in any event, either the company is lying to their customers about the percentage of alcohol, or they're being honest and incredibly lucky. 

MEANWHILE - just to add to the confusion. I tried this product out recently:
https://barberrycoast.com/products/bay-rum-aftershave-for-men

I emailed them to ask if what kind of alcohol they use. They replied 100% grain alcohol :/ - Why is it legal for them and not for me?


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## IrishLass (Sep 27, 2017)

BayBoy said:


> I emailed them to ask if what kind of alcohol they use. They replied 100% grain alcohol :/ - Why is it legal for them and not for me?


 
I've been looking further into this and I think it's something that varies from state to state. In my own state (where 190-proof Everclear is legal), a fellow soaper who lives in the next town over from me actually contacted our local BATF as well as the state liquor licensing board, and she was told that it's a taxation matter. They told her that just as long as she legally bought the Everclear through a normal retail channel or liquor store, she could presume all the necessary taxes had been paid, and that she would not need a permit or special license just as long as the product she was using it in was unfit for beverage use. When she told them she was mixing it with fragrance oils to make perfume, she was given the free & clear/go-ahead to make and sell her perfume sprays.

I would suggest checking with your local state BATF office before giving up hope.


IrishLass


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## BayBoy (Sep 27, 2017)

IrishLass said:


> I've been looking further into this and I think it's something that varies from state to state. In my own state (where 190-proof Everclear is legal), a fellow soaper who lives in the next town over from me actually contacted our local BATF as well as the state liquor licensing board, and she was told that it's a taxation matter. They told her that just as long as she legally bought the Everclear through a normal retail channel or liquor store, she could presume all the necessary taxes had been paid, and that she would not need a permit or special license just as long as the product she was using it in was unfit for beverage use. When she told them she was mixing it with fragrance oils to make perfume, she was given the free & clear/go-ahead to make and sell her perfume sprays.
> 
> I would suggest checking with your local state BATF office before giving up hope.
> 
> ...




This makes sense to me. I can't imagine Etsy flagrantly (fragrantly? Sorry, couldn't help myself   breaking the law by allowing so many vendors to sell an illicit substance. 

I buy everclear - 190 proof - off the shelf at my local liquor shop.


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## Saranac (Sep 27, 2017)

Check out the info from this supplier at: https://organicalcohol.com/permits
The short of it:  Federal regulations require a permit for selling any non-consumable product made with SDA or ethanol.  As IL mentioned, your state may also require a permit.


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## BayBoy (Sep 27, 2017)

Hey thanks for contributing this.


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## dibbles (Sep 28, 2017)

I have looked at this http://www.lotioncrafter.com/leucidal-liquid.html in the past, but have not tried it. I don't know if it is something you want to explore, but I'd do some reading on it if you think it might work for your purposes.


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## BayBoy (Sep 28, 2017)

I think I might just proceed with my natural alcohol based product as planned and be damned if the FDA ever cares. Honestly I suffered for years with debilitating and painful/embarrassing at times scalp, gums and groin conditions because of SLS. Switched to alternative products and have been fine ever since. Never thought to sue anyone.


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## lionprincess00 (Sep 28, 2017)

On the question of optiphen, I use it in my lotion. I haven't made lotion in quite some time, but if I recall correctly, it needs to be added below a certain temperature, requires a certain ph range, and can seperate some different products. I've never had problems with it in my lotion, however. Search it out on soap queen, and definitely familarize yourself with swift crafty monkeys blog. It has much better details on preservatives and their best uses in which products etc.


Edit to add, I've read about small time soapers making health claims on their eo blends get taken by the fda. Honestly, their fines can be steep. Optiphen is probably a good choice, but research the stipulations ie ph range temps etc.


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## Arimara (Sep 28, 2017)

lionprincess00 said:


> On the question of optiphen, I use it in my lotion. I haven't made lotion in quite some time, but if I recall correctly, it needs to be added below a certain temperature, requires a certain ph range, and can seperate some different products. I've never had problems with it in my lotion, however. Search it out on soap queen, and definitely familarize yourself with swift crafty monkeys blog. It has much better details on preservatives and their best uses in which products etc.
> 
> 
> Edit to add, I've read about small time soapers making health claims on their eo blends get taken by the fda. Honestly, their fines can be steep. Optiphen is probably a good choice, but research the stipulations ie ph range temps etc.



I suggest Optiphen plus. It has a broader range. And going back to that natural statement, you do know that there are natural things out there that can kill you faster than the synthetic, right? I get where you're coming from but Natural does not  equate to safer and that marketing ploy seems to have affected and efficiently overriden common sense as a whole in may people.


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## lionprincess00 (Sep 28, 2017)

Arimara said:


> I suggest Optiphen plus. It has a broader range. And going back to that natural statement, you do know that there are natural things out there that can kill you faster than the synthetic, right? I get where you're coming from but Natural does not  equate to safer and that marketing ploy seems to have affected and efficiently overriden common sense as a whole in may people.



Yeah, staph infection is "natural" as in found in nature lol. Thx! It's been a year since I made lotion. I'll look into optiphen plus now!


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