# Can I get the mad micas red set in Europe?



## Tara_H (Mar 23, 2021)

I really want to make some soap that's actually red... My latest red mica is red-ish, but in a rusty sort of way. I'm thinking poppies, Coke cans, Swiss army knives... 

The best recommendation I can find is the true red set from mad micas, but shipping would be insane. I can't seem to find any EU distributors. Does anyone have either a supplier or an alternative recommendation I could use?


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## TheGecko (Mar 23, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> I can't seem to find any EU distributors.



Probably because they are not allowed.  Karen at EdensSecret1 in the UK had purchased the Really Red! Pigment and then found out that she couldn't use it.

My recommendation would be to get the sheets on the set and then contact your local assessors office and see if they are allowed.


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## Tara_H (Mar 23, 2021)

Oh, that's unfortunate! Thanks for letting me know!

I don't sell, so the business side doesn't matter for me, but if they're not allowed then it's unlikely to be worth trying to source some nearer to hand.

I guess plan B will be finding the best option that's available here...


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 23, 2021)

I googled "red pigment for soap EU" and this came up:

*https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/red-insoluble-pigment-powder-ci158500-lc3079*

*https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/colours-dyes-pigments*


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## Tara_H (Mar 23, 2021)

Thanks @Zany_in_CO! Funnily enough the last one I tried was from them: Fiery Red Mica Pigment (ci77019, ci77891, ci77492) but it didn't live up to the picture.  This is how it came out, kind of brownish-orange:



I don't know a lot about the different kinds of colourings, I've only really used micas and one set of not-great liquid colours. Do you think the pigment one you listed is more likely to give a good colour than the mica?


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## Zany_in_CO (Mar 23, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> Do you think the pigment one you listed is more likely to give a good colour than the mica?


Unfortunately, Tara, I have very little experience with micas, pigments, and dyes and I'm reluctant to advise you. Hopefully, someone with more knowledge and experience will happen along soon.


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## TheGecko (Mar 23, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> Oh, that's unfortunate! Thanks for letting me know!
> 
> I don't sell, so the business side doesn't matter for me, but if they're not allowed then it's unlikely to be worth trying to source some nearer to hand.



Personal use is different.  You'd be fine there.


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## KimW (Mar 23, 2021)

Not the EU, but I went on the "I Dream In Soap" YT channel where Lisa is based in the UK.  With her color use and research, it looks like even she does not have the red you seek - what I'd call a true red.  I've placed a screen shot that shows her color pucks.  I wonder if she'd have any helpful advice if you commented on her channel? Here's the video the screen shot came from:
Color video link


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## Mobjack Bay (Mar 23, 2021)

Linda O’Sullivan of Mimi and Boo soaps in Surrey, UK recently posted a very striking all red soap to her IG account.



I just noticed that she mentioned in the comments that she used madder root and red clay, not micas.

i’m not thrilled to hear that the red pigments are banned in the EU.  It makes me worry about their safety.


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## Tara_H (Mar 24, 2021)

KimW said:


> I've placed a screen shot that shows her color pucks.


Thanks!! There's a couple in there that might be close, even if they're not exactly what I was going for. I'll definitely check that out.

Edit: she recommends micamoma... I went there before but was put off by the pop-ups, but I pushed through this time and I think I'll place a test order. They have a couple of promising options, including Rock Star Red Synthetic Mica. *Fingers crossed*



Mobjack Bay said:


> I just noticed that she mentioned in the comments that she used madder root and red clay, not micas.


That's an amazing result from those! Seems like some witchery going on 
I plan on growing some madder but my usual seed place didn't have any this year, I might need to step up my efforts!


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## TheGecko (Mar 24, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> i’m not thrilled to hear that the red pigments are banned in the EU. It makes me worry about their safety.



There are things that are allowed in the UK and EU that aren't allowed here...doesn't necessarily mean that something is bad. The EU, of which rules the UK still follows, doesn't allow for more than five additives in soap per soap assessment. 'Additives' being anything outside of the oils, butters, lye and water like Sodium Lactate, Tussah Silk, Milk Powders, Purees, Colorants, Scents, etc. My Chocolate Espresso Soap would be prohibited in the EU...I "add" Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay in my batter, then I add TD, Cocoa, Mica and an FO...that's six ingredients. So would my Barbershop soap as it also uses Red and Blue pigments, TD and FO.

One of the things I have learned from watch Lisa with I Dream in Soap, is how to do more with less. Assessments are not cheap so she uses colorants that can be used separately or combines to create additional colors...like combining red and blue to make purple or blue and yellow to make green or red and TD to make pink.

The EU also limits FOs to I think 3%, even though the safe usage rates are higher.


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## jcandleattic (Mar 24, 2021)

Email Joanna or Karyn. They'd be able to tell you if they ship to Ireland. *[email protected]*

Or you can ask them on FB through their page.


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## Tara_H (Mar 24, 2021)

jcandleattic said:


> Email Joanna or Karyn. They'd be able to tell you if they ship to Ireland. *[email protected]*
> 
> Or you can ask them on FB through their page.



Thanks - yeah they would ship here but for tracked delivery it was something like $80, off the top of my head. I do want red soap, but I don't want it quite that much!


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## LilyJo (Mar 24, 2021)

TheGecko said:


> There are things that are allowed in the UK and EU that aren't allowed here...doesn't necessarily mean that something is bad. The EU, of which rules the UK still follows, doesn't allow for more than five additives in soap per soap assessment. 'Additives' being anything outside of the oils, butters, lye and water like Sodium Lactate, Tussah Silk, Milk Powders, Purees, Colorants, Scents, etc. My Chocolate Espresso Soap would be prohibited in the EU...I "add" Sodium Lactate and Kaolin Clay in my batter, then I add TD, Cocoa, Mica and an FO...that's six ingredients. So would my Barbershop soap as it also uses Red and Blue pigments, TD and FO.
> 
> One of the things I have learned from watch Lisa with I Dream in Soap, is how to do more with less. Assessments are not cheap so she uses colorants that can be used separately or combines to create additional colors...like combining red and blue to make purple or blue and yellow to make green or red and TD to make pink.
> 
> The EU also limits FOs to I think 3%, even though the safe usage rates are higher.



You can have more than five ingredients in soap, the only restriction is based on which assessor you use and prices.  The cheapest (or perhaps the most well known) package limits you to five additional items on top of your base recipe but I have other soaps assessed with more extras.


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## earlene (Mar 24, 2021)

Mobjack Bay said:


> i’m not thrilled to hear that the red pigments are banned in the EU.  It makes me worry about their safety.


*Mobjack Bay*, I am not seeing where red pigments are totally 'banned'. (If I missed that somewhere, let me know.) What I do see is that in some cases, some of them can be used in some instances, and in others they must come with a warning (could cause "an adverse effect on activity and attention in children", I believe what we call ADHD.) Another restriction I see is that some are not allowed to be used in cosmetics that come in contact with mucous membranes (I assume soap qualifies as such a product.)

banned-foods  (dated 2020)

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/cosing/pdf/COSING_Annex IV_v2.pdf  (dated 2020)

Cosmetic Products Regulation, Annex IV - Allowed Colorants - cosmetics-colorant - ECHA (EU. Allowed Colorants: Annex IV, Regulation 1223/2009/EC on Cosmetic Products, as amended by Regulation 2019/681/EU, 2 May 2019)

banned-foods  (dated 2019, but related to food, but compares US to EU regulations for colorants, so maybe it might address some of your wondering)


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## Mobjack Bay (Mar 24, 2021)

earlene said:


> *Mobjack Bay*, I am not seeing where red pigments are totally 'banned'. (If I missed that somewhere, let me know.) What I do see is that in some cases, some of them can be used in some instances, and in others they must come with a warning (could cause "an adverse effect on activity and attention in children", I believe what we call ADHD.) Another restriction I see is that some are not allowed to be used in cosmetics that come in contact with mucous membranes (I assume soap qualifies as such a product.)
> 
> banned-foods  (dated 2020)
> 
> ...


Thanks Earlene.  I will check out the information.


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## sabnazzy (Mar 26, 2021)

I have the most amazing colours that i brought off a seller from Etsy and he happens to be in England,do you want his Etsy shop name? Forgot to mention i also use Beetroot Powder,just try a little in a test of batter first and add more if you need too,but i am keen on using natural colours now.


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## Tara_H (Mar 26, 2021)

sabnazzy said:


> do you want his Etsy shop name?


Oh, yes please 
I'm always interested in finding relatively local suppliers at the moment, need to figure out how to support this hobby without breaking the bank!


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## Babyshoes (Mar 26, 2021)

sabnazzy said:


> I have the most amazing colours that i brought off a seller from Etsy and he happens to be in England,do you want his Etsy shop name?


Could I also have the shop name please? Thanks.


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## beboldeire (Mar 26, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> Thanks - yeah they would ship here but for tracked delivery it was something like $80, off the top of my head. I do want red soap, but I don't want it quite that much!


Do you have Address Pal? If I need to order from the states I use that, its do much easier because they will ship to your US address then to your Irish address through An Post. But make sure to ask them to put a lower value on the declaration or ul get stuck with customs. I've learnt the hard way lol


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## Tara_H (Mar 26, 2021)

beboldeire said:


> Do you have Address Pal? If I need to order from the states I use that, its do much easier because they will ship to your US address then to your Irish address through An Post. But make sure to ask them to put a lower value on the declaration or ul get stuck with customs. I've learnt the hard way lol


That's a point, I did sign up for it ages ago but I keep forgetting I have it.  Still pricy enough if I recall correctly?  But certainly better than the direct shipping price I'm sure.


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## beboldeire (Mar 29, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> That's a point, I did sign up for it ages ago but I keep forgetting I have it.  Still pricy enough if I recall correctly?  But certainly better than the direct shipping price I'm sure.


I ordered from a US supplier and it was 3kg weight, they were super marked it as a Gift so with Address Pal & declared items customs wasn't 2 bad, I think AP was €20 then customs was €11 but totally worth it for all I got. Have u checked Etsy? Or Amazon.com they do international shipping with calculated customs & postage?


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## Tara_H (Mar 29, 2021)

beboldeire said:


> I ordered from a US supplier and it was 3kg weight, they were super marked it as a Gift so with Address Pal & declared items customs wasn't 2 bad, I think AP was €20 then customs was €11 but totally worth it for all I got. Have u checked Etsy? Or Amazon.com they do international shipping with calculated customs & postage?


I've put in a small order with micamoma, so I'll see how I get on with that, but I'll keep your suggestions in mind if I need a backup plan!

Edit: funnily enough that order arrived today!  I made a test batch with a likely combination and I think it has promise:




Shown with some actual red things for comparison.  I was also messing around with hot process and it seems to be washing out the colours a bit so will do a proper CP test soon with a known recipe.


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## Whillow (Apr 20, 2021)

I have used Trial by Fire by Nurture Soap.  It was the best red I have found.  It is a mixture of mica and pigment.  Which the mad mica grouping is 3 different micas that you mix together.   Trial by Fire Red Mica Blend

I'm sure they would ship to you but unsure how much that would be.  I'm in Canada so when I shop from the US, it always costs me a bunch for shipping.

Not sure if this helped.


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## Tara_H (Apr 21, 2021)

Whillow said:


> I have used Trial by Fire by Nurture Soap.  It was the best red I have found.  It is a mixture of mica and pigment.  Which the mad mica grouping is 3 different micas that you mix together.   Trial by Fire Red Mica Blend
> 
> I'm sure they would ship to you but unsure how much that would be.  I'm in Canada so when I shop from the US, it always costs me a bunch for shipping.
> 
> Not sure if this helped.


Oh thanks! I should actually have come back to this thread to say I finally have a handle on reds!  Reviewing those 3-colour sets, I realised what they were doing and have mostly been able to replicate it - one earthy oxide type red, one of those deep but pink-tinted reds, and a small hint of neon orange gives the result I'm looking for.


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## Whillow (Apr 21, 2021)

Tara_H said:


> Oh thanks! I should actually have come back to this thread to say I finally have a handle on reds!  Reviewing those 3-colour sets, I realised what they were doing and have mostly been able to replicate it - one earthy oxide type red, one of those deep but pink-tinted reds, and a small hint of neon orange gives the result I'm looking for.
> View attachment 56359
> View attachment 56360


Oh that is lovely.


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## Babyshoes (Apr 24, 2022)

Tara_H said:


> Oh thanks! I should actually have come back to this thread to say I finally have a handle on reds!  Reviewing those 3-colour sets, I realised what they were doing and have mostly been able to replicate it - one earthy oxide type red, one of those deep but pink-tinted reds, and a small hint of neon orange gives the result I'm looking for.
> View attachment 56359
> View attachment 56360



That's fab! Any chance you'd be willing to share your recipe? I've still not found a red I'm happy with...


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