# Help Please: First Batch Problems



## Benjamin (Jan 17, 2014)

Hello All,

  This is my first post.  I’m been making CPHP soap for a while.  I just attempted a small test batch of glycerin method liquid soap.  It did not go as planned, and I was hoping for a little feedback.  I’ve listed the recipe and problems below.  Any help would be much appreciated.  

  Thanks!
  ---Ben

Recipe: 
  85 g. Castor Oil
  85 g. Coconut Oil
  284 g. Olive Oil
  91 g. KOH
  172 ml. Glycerin 

Problems:


When I heated up the glycerin it started to smoke.  Is this normal? It was about 90 deg. F when this started to happen.
When I added the KOH to the hot glycerin it formed a weird paste, and wouldn’t dissolve fully.  Is this normal? (both my glycerin and KOH came from Essential Depot.  I've ordered from them in the past and never had problems)
I ended up adding more glycerin little by little until the KOH dissolved.  Will this ruin the batch?
I didn’t notice much of a gel when I stick blended everything. Eventually I got bubbles, but not many. It never really looked like the pictures I've seen.
 
  Everything is cooking away now in the mini-crockpot I use for test batches.


----------



## Lion Of Judah (Jan 17, 2014)

Ahhhhhh Ben : no where did you mention your water / liquid. are you adding lye to glycerin ?????? and why you heating up the glycerin? where did your recipe came from?


----------



## soap_rat (Jan 17, 2014)

Hi, Ben:

I do the glycerin method too, and have read on here (haven't done it yet) that it's easier to dissolve the KOH if you use more glycerin than, for instance, Soaping 101's video on glycerine liquid soap calls for.  So you're probably fine on that.  Search around on this site and you'll find a few different threads with more info (I use google and add site:soapmakingforum.com).  I'd search more for you, but I have cats sitting on my arms.

I have had the glycerine smoke but only when it was getting very hot.  I've also had the glycerine/KOH be more mashed potatoes than anything else, and the soap was fine.


----------



## Benjamin (Jan 17, 2014)

Lion Of Judah said:


> Ahhhhhh Ben : no where did you mention your water / liquid. are you adding lye to glycerin ?????? and why you heating up the glycerin? where did your recipe came from?




Hi Lion of Judah,

Glycerine method omits water. Definitely weird!

---B


----------



## Benjamin (Jan 17, 2014)

soap_rat said:


> Hi, Ben:
> 
> I do the glycerin method too, and have read on here (haven't done it yet) that it's easier to dissolve the KOH if you use more glycerin than, for instance, Soaping 101's video on glycerine liquid soap calls for.  So you're probably fine on that.  Search around on this site and you'll find a few different threads with more info (I use google and add site:soapmakingforum.com).  I'd search more for you, but I have cats sitting on my arms.
> 
> I have had the glycerine smoke but only when it was getting very hot.  I've also had the glycerine/KOH be more mashed potatoes than anything else, and the soap was fine.




Hi Soap Rat,

Those darn cats! We have four. I did a google search of the forum but didn't see smoking glycerin. Thanks for sharing your experience. Good to know it's not just me.  Also good to hear about the mashed potato KOH. That's what I had until I added more glycerin. Liquid soap is a very different beast!

Right now it's testing clear when I mix it with water, but the ph is about 12. I've turned off the crockpot, and will see what it looks like in the morning. 

I will report back with results. 

Thank you!
---Ben


----------



## soap_rat (Jan 17, 2014)

I did get advice on here that it takes a long time to cook it to a lower pH.  Some people just turn it off and walk away, in a day or two it gets to a non-zapping pH.  I've cooked it the whole time on low, but I think it still takes over a day of cooking, so I should probably just turn it off myself.

By the way, thin oils become thick soap and thick oils become thin soap.  Your mostly olive oil soap will be very thick.

We have 4 cats too!  That means I can read stuff on the internet just fine, but there will always be an "impediment" who likes to nap on top of my arm.


----------



## Benjamin (Jan 18, 2014)

Ok, so when I checked on the soap this morning it was very hard. It dilutes clear, but the pH is still quite high--about 11.5. Should I warm it up and cook it some more? I was under the impression that I wouldn't have to neutralize with the glycerine method. I guess I'll need to pick up some citric acid. Any thoughts?


----------



## FGOriold (Jan 18, 2014)

If using the glycerin method, you really  need glycerin in an amount of about 3 times the weight of your KOH.  I have never been able to dissolve KOH in anything less than that.   Also, make sure you are using a stainless steel pot to heat your glycerin/lye mixture.

You might want to try using 1/2 diluted water 1/2 glycerin for your liquid to make the paste.  You get all the benefits of the glycerin method without having to heat the glycerin to such high temperatures.  It is the only method I use now for making liquid soap.


----------



## Benjamin (Jan 18, 2014)

FGOriold said:


> If using the glycerin method, you really  need glycerin in an amount of about 3 times the weight of your KOH.  I have never been able to dissolve KOH in anything less than that.   Also, make sure you are using a stainless steel pot to heat your glycerin/lye mixture.
> 
> You might want to try using 1/2 diluted water 1/2 glycerin for your liquid to make the paste.  You get all the benefits of the glycerin method without having to heat the glycerin to such high temperatures.  It is the only method I use now for making liquid soap.




FGOriold,

This is super helpful. Thank you. I think I probably ended up with 3:1 by the time the KOH actually dissolved--and I was wondering about using some water to help dissolve the KOH.  Smoking glycerin smells terrible, and irritated my nose and throat. I'd love to avoid that in the future. A quick google search made it sound like it's pretty terrible for you too.

I might just dump this batch and try again with a 50/50 glycerin/water split. At least with 1 lb. batches I don't feel as bad when things don't go as planned. 

Thanks so much!
---Ben


----------



## soap_rat (Jan 18, 2014)

Cook it more if you want, although other people just let it sit.  I'd give your soap a day or two before being concerned about needing to add neutralizing ingredients.

I am very thrifty, so as long as your soap eventually stops zapping, I would save it in the fridge and make some super-thin, runny batches of liquid soap next, dilute some of each batch, and play with blending them together to create the viscosity you prefer.  Take notes on what you used of each recipe, and then you can figure out the recipe you want to use in future.  (I don't know for sure that the fridge is necessary but that's what people recommend)


----------



## Lion Of Judah (Jan 18, 2014)

this thread is very interesting....never knew about this method, even though i do not make liquid soap i find it very very interesting . i will have to re-read all of this and start researching it to learn it.


----------



## newsoapmaker (Jan 19, 2014)

*Question re:soap*

Hi, I'm new to the forum and I can't figure out where to post a question I have.  I figured out how to "reply" but can't figure out where to start my own post!  Sorry! Please help!


----------



## soap_rat (Jan 19, 2014)

Hiya, newsoapmaker, welcome.  Do you see the blue Post Reply button ABOVE these comments?  Like, above where it says Lion of Judah?  Now look above that, at the light brown...site navigation/category hierarchy line.  (in my browser it's right above it, I hope it is on yours too)  I'm sure I could be saying that better.  NOT the big logo, it's the itty bitty hard to read long line of soapy words.

So, if you click on the light brown Soap Making Forum, you'll see a list of ALL the forums on here.  You have to click on one of those forums to see the button for making a new post.  We're "inside" a post right now so you won't see the button.  So if your question is about a recipe, find the Soap Making Recipes forum towards the bottom of the page, click on it, then look for a blue button just below the brown site navigation line .  (No one will yell at you if you pick the wrong category, but try to make your subject line very soapy, since we get spammers in the middle of the night!   ).


----------



## newsoapmaker (Jan 19, 2014)

*Thank you!!*

Hi Soap Rat (love your name - I love rats!)  Thank you so much for the explanation - I just finished posting my question!  I really appreciate you taking the time to help!:-D


----------



## Benjamin (Jan 19, 2014)

FGOriold and Soap Rat,

Thanks for all the help. I make another test batch today and it came out great. I used three times as much liquid as KOH, and used half glycerin, half water.  What a difference it made. It took longer to cook than regular CPHP, but that's no big deal. Right now the pH is testing around 9.5.  I'm looking forward to diluting the paste tomorrow. 

Thanks so much,
---Ben


----------



## soap_rat (Jan 21, 2014)

Cool!  Next time I make liquid soap I'll try that liquid amount and type too.


----------



## asherbenruby (Mar 1, 2014)

Benjamin said:


> FGOriold and Soap Rat,
> 
> Thanks for all the help. I make another test batch today and it came out great. I used three times as much liquid as KOH, and used half glycerin, half water.  What a difference it made. It took longer to cook than regular CPHP, but that's no big deal. Right now the pH is testing around 9.5.  I'm looking forward to diluting the paste tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Did you use the Soaping 101 recipe?  When you increased the liquid for the KOH - did you have to run it through a calculator?  Also, what PH would you want in order to not have to neutralize?


----------



## Benjamin (Mar 5, 2014)

asherbenruby said:


> Did you use the Soaping 101 recipe?  When you increased the liquid for the KOH - did you have to run it through a calculator?  Also, what PH would you want in order to not have to neutralize?




Hi Asherbenruby,

I didn't use the soaping 101 recipe. I came up with one on my own. You shouldn't have to run the recipe through a lye calculator if you are only increasing the liquid and glycerine. You would need to recalculate if you changed the amount of KOH or the type/amount of oils.  I'm shooting for a pH close to 9.5.  Other folks can weigh in on what would be too high--I'm not sure what the official cut-off is. 

I will add that I still found this approach too drying. I wondered if it might be the glycerine, so I made a batch the regular way. I'm sequestering it now because it's not as clear as the glycerine method. I'll have more info when I test it out next week. FWIW friends who have tried the glycerine method soap I made say it is less drying than store bought stuff.  Maybe I just have dry hands. Either way, I'm not satisfied with my final product yet. LS is definitely more tricky than bar soap.


----------



## lady-of-4 (Mar 7, 2014)

Hi Ben!  It seems you resolved your main issue, but you're asking about pH?  Can I ask what calcualtor you used for your recipe?  If you used the Summer Bee advanced calc, it will provide you with a neutralization amount for you batch, using borax as the neutralizer.  That calculator is fairly on the spot as far as liquid soap is concerned, and everything it entails, like dilution and nerutralization.  Anyways, if you used that calc, and you still have access to the receipe it produced, you'll find the amount of borax needed to neutralize, found near the bottom right, above the dilution percentages.  If you don't have that, you can go ahead an make a 33% borax solution for neutralization, by adding 3oz of borax to 6oz of water, then use 3/4 of an ounce per pound of paste.  If you did a 7lb batch of soap, that's 5.25oz of the solution.  I wouldn't use that much up front.  Maybe do an ounce at a time, and test pH with each added increment. While you can't over neutralize with borax, like you can with boric or citric acid,  it can cause clouding if you use too much. The lowest pH soap can go, without going out of solution (break down), is 9. And the acids will cause this break down if you use too much of them.  I've heard of some folks push an 8.5.  But a 9 or 9.5 is ideal.  And anyone saying their getting their soap to a 7, isn't testing properly, FYI.


----------

