# Lip products with water based ingredients



## xoticsoaps (Jul 14, 2014)

I have been searching the net all day and I just wanted to double-check to make sure I've got this right.

I know that general lip care products don't usually require a preservative, but based on the ingredients I intend to use, I'm certain mine will because I plan to use water based ingredients. I have pretty much all of the other details worked out EXCEPT this whole preservative thing. 

Geogard, is a food safe, broad spectrum preservative that I can use in my mix, right? I plan on making a type of lip balm.


----------



## new12soap (Jul 15, 2014)

To keep the water based ingredients from weeping out of your formula you will need an emulsifier. Beeswax won't work, so I am not sure what you plan to use to hold it all together. Yes, for anything emulsified you NEED a preservative. I am not familiar with Geoguard, so I can't say for certain that it will or won't be right for your application, but some preservatives do not play well with some emulsifiers. All preservatives are most effective within certain pH ranges, some are good for formulas with low amounts of oil, others are good for anhydrous products, etc.

For Q's on preservatives and all things cosmetic, my favorite source is Susan at http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/ spend some time browsing there, if you scroll down along the far right side there are all kinds of links, find the info on preservatives and start there!


----------



## DeeAnna (Jul 15, 2014)

New12soap is right -- if you mix oil/wax and water-based liquids, you not only need a preservative, but you will also need an emulsifier. Lots of people try to put stuff like honey or tea extract in lip balm and try to get away with not using an emulsifier. The water-based liquid eventually weeps out and makes an ugly mess, because there's nothing to prevent the oil/wax and water from separating. I second the suggestion to check Susan's blog.


----------



## shunt2011 (Jul 15, 2014)

Yes, you can't make a lip product without either a wax (beeswax, carnauba etc.)/oil/butter mix which doesn't require a preservative. Anything with water will require an emulsifier to bind it together as well as a preservative.  I would also be concerned with it holding up in a purse or tube or anything else in hot weather.   I have no knowledge of geogard.


----------



## xoticsoaps (Jul 15, 2014)

Thank you all for taking the time to reply, but as I said before I have those other details, that you all mentioned, worked out. I'm not asking IF I need a preservative, I already know that I will since I plan on using water based ingredients, I just wanted to know if Geoguard was safe to use in lip applications that might be ingested.


----------



## pamielynn (Jul 15, 2014)

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/10/preservatives-geogard-ultra.html


----------



## xoticsoaps (Jul 15, 2014)

pamielynn said:


> http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/2010/10/preservatives-geogard-ultra.html



While I appreciate you taking the time to share this link, I've come across this link in search and the post doesn't give the information I'm looking for.


----------



## CanaDawn (Jul 15, 2014)

http://doc.ccc-group.com/spec/465708.pdf
http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.ca/msds/geogardultramsds.htm


----------



## pamielynn (Jul 15, 2014)

xoticsoaps said:


> While I appreciate you taking the time to share this link, I've come across this link in search and the post doesn't give the information I'm looking for.



Alright. Thought it might help. Hope you find what you need.


----------



## CanaDawn (Jul 15, 2014)

Also note that on the link pamielynn gave you, it mentions that this is NOT a robust preservative, and experienced users recommend microbiology testing at regular intervals  "_I had it in testing for 18 mos and not only does it have a narrower  pH range than Lonza states, but long term, it is not robust...  especially for any products you will be sticking your hands in  repeatedly. I also checked with a few of the contract manufacturers I do  business with, and they concurred with my testing results also._

_Just make sure that whatever your technical data sheet actually says  on the pH range that you reduce that range by 1/2 of a pH level on both  upper and lower limits._

_If you use it, plan to do microbiology on a 1 to 3 month interval for  about 12 to 18 prior to selling. My batches for serums, lotions, and  body creams saw preservative failure in the 9 mos to 18 mos time ranges."_


----------



## Dorymae (Jul 15, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> http://doc.ccc-group.com/spec/465708.pdf
> http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.ca/msds/geogardultramsds.htm




Note that at the bottom of the MSDS sheet is a phone number that you can call if you have any questions that have not been answered.


----------



## CanaDawn (Jul 15, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> Note that at the bottom of the MSDS sheet is a phone number that you can call if you have any questions that have not been answered.



That's on the manufacturer page.  The MSDS doesn't have one that I can see.  (the first link is manufacturer info, the second the MSDS)


----------



## Dorymae (Jul 15, 2014)

CanaDawn said:


> That's on the manufacturer page.  The MSDS doesn't have one that I can see.  (the first link is manufacturer info, the second the MSDS)




I stand corrected.  Read through it too quickly.  Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## CanaDawn (Jul 16, 2014)

Dorymae said:


> I stand corrected.  Read through it too quickly.  Sorry for the confusion.



It's funny...cuz I WAS honestly confused for a minute (I work in a lab and deal with MSDS a LOT and I sometimes feel like they SHOULD have a phone number to call for more information!)

The only reason it would matter is that the manufacturer would be able to give specific advice on the product, and the MSDS only deals with the hazard portion of it.  So knowing about the phone number is probably even more useful than the MSDS, since it appears the product is quite well known/used in cosmetics


----------



## kylie_au (Jul 16, 2014)

Maybe i am simply a bit weird, but i'm not sure why you want to make a water based product for lips that will need a preservative.
My next thought is that if the preservative didnt quite stand up over time, well i mean lips are virtually mouth, yes?

Just say for arguments sake that a cream or lotion - for whatever reason - started to develop cooties, the kind that cant be seen or smelt at first - at least if it is on arms and legs etc, it will get washed off when ppl have a shower. 
Yeah i know, should not happen, sounds gross, but i'm making a point here okay?

Now similar lip product develops similar problem - the thing is ppl would be eating it all day - we lick our lips, we have cuppas and eats etc, more likely to be ingested?

why not make a light lip butter or balm, add some special goodies to it and not have the what if? worry of preservatives?

Dont mean to be mean or offend anyone, just thinking out loud really.


----------



## elmtree (Jul 17, 2014)

kylie_au said:


> Maybe i am simply a bit weird, but i'm not sure why you want to make a water based product for lips that will need a preservative.
> My next thought is that if the preservative didnt quite stand up over time, well i mean lips are virtually mouth, yes?
> 
> Just say for arguments sake that a cream or lotion - for whatever reason - started to develop cooties, the kind that cant be seen or smelt at first - at least if it is on arms and legs etc, it will get washed off when ppl have a shower.
> ...




I'm with you Kylie. Plus, I wouldn't want to put preservatives on my lips and be licking them all day. I know my customers would be totally grossed out because they check the labels of lip balms especially.


----------



## CanaDawn (Jul 17, 2014)

Just FWIW, bacterial contamination can be bad on the skin too.  However:

The preservative in question seems to be commonly used in cosmetics and food already.  The comment about its longevity seems to suggest it is the pH that makes a difference.  Most cosmetics, especially those where fingers are used for application, commercial or not, should be replaced within about 18 months, and are often marked that way, so I am not sure it is any different using commercial products or homemade ones in terms of "what if".


----------

