# SFIC is discontinuing all soap bases with soy & using oat protein instead?



## urchin

I have celiac disease and can't use a product with oat protein.

soap goods just told me they can't fill my order because they are out of stock of all the sfic natural bases that contained soy because "SFIC has discontinued the Soy Protein bases" ...  AND they only told me this AFTER i ordered last week and got the wrong order at my door today.  there site shows all the sfic bases in stock ... really ticks me off! 

what are those of us that can't use oat or wheat protein in our soap bases to do?  

can someone recommend a high quality 'natural', sls, detergent free, gluten free, soap base?  also, the site to purchase it at.  

i've been trying to get a soap base order done after three weeks of researching ingredients and i am back to square one and really bummed.

btw i love the forum and am so glad to have it as a resource ... you guys are great!  thanks in advance for any ideas or suggestions.

sharon in florida


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## urchin

i just emailed sfic to see what they have to say and will post their answer.

i asked if they have a sls, detergent, gluten, free melt and pour soap base.

i've been reading such great things about the sfic natural soap base and am so bummed i won't be able to try it.


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## xoticsoaps

Detergent free soap bases are the only ones I buy and care about. You could checkout this site and browse their detergent free bases. I sell some on my site too, but I think you'll have to message me for that.


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## seven

i've heard good things about essentials by catalina, but haven't used it myself.


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## IrishLass

You might still be able to use the soap with oat protein in spite of the celiac disease. At least according to the Mayo Clinic:  

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...se/expert-answers/celiac-disease/faq-20057879

 IrishLass


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## urchin

here's the response from sfic:

I am so very sorry to hear that you have such problems with soap additives.

Attached are the soap ingredient listings for our melt and pour soap base.  It does not look like we are a good fit for you.

Have you tried Cold Process (ours is Hot Process) often there are less ingredients just oils and lye.

Wishing you the best

Jen Ryerson

well i guess i'm going back to researching and reading ingredients.  funny how their bases just stopped being natural all of the sudden ... and now to top it off have gluten in them.

there is no might when it comes to celiac disease.  it is an autoimmune disease not a choice.  i am not going to be bedridden in agonizing pain, and soiling myself, because i 'might' be able to use something with gluten in it.


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## Susie

I hate to ask this, because I am sure you have thought about it, but why not make CP?  That way YOU control every ingredient.  No worrying about who put what in a soap.


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## seven

here is one of the mp bases from essentials by catalina: http://www.essentialsbycatalina.com/melt-and-pour-glycerin-soap-base-natural-sls-free.asp

as natural as you can get me thinks. besides the oils, they basically only used glycerin, sorbitol, aloe juice, water, and tocopherol acetate. they also have quite a large selection of bases to choose from. 

have you thought about making your own base? this way, you can pick and choose what you want to put into it.


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## urchin

thanks for the link to essentials by catalina seven ... i really appreciate it ... i'll go check it out.

well the reason i don't make my own soap from scratch is because i have multiple sclerosis and a handful of autoimmune diseases and i am disabled.  along with the ms brings neuropathy ... i can't use my right hand too well ... and i'm right handed.  i like melt and pour soap because it is fun, easy, and relaxing to do.  it gives me a hobby that i can actually do all by myself. 

i'm not fanatical about the ingredients, but gluten free is a must.  i am completely happy with a decent melt and pour soap base.  if i can choose a base with the least amount of chemicals that's a bonus.  sfic had a great base that i could use without any problems until they switched soy for oat protein.  

i just made a lovely soap with goat's milk and honey and i am in love with it ... thanks to this forum and the great recipes and posts.


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## urchin

i wish the essentials by catalina didn't come in twenty pound blocks.  it sounds wonderful, but i can't lift twenty pounds ... i'd hurt myself trying to get it in the house and chopped up. lol  i'm sure i could get my husband to help, but i'm trying to keep it small where i can do it by myself.


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## urchin

is there a cold process or hot process soap recipe that doesn't need to be blended with a stick blender forever?  i did think the other day i may graduate to making my own soap because it seems like a natural progression for a lot of people that get started with melt and pour, but the process seems really physical ... for lack of a better word.  i guess i get scared because every time i read a recipe for cp it's always large batches in the large loaf molds.  i'm spoiled with the melt and pour because i can do one bar at a time if i want to.

i'll go peruse the other forums.  it would be really cool to be able to control everything i put into the soap.  it seems like it would get expensive unless you bought large quantities of your oils though.  

thanks for all the replies and the ideas.


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## sassanellat

Um, you have to eat the gluten to have an effect with celiacs - it's an autoimmune intolerance disease of the gut lining. It's extremely unlikely that you are 'allergic' to the gluten in any application outside eating it. You should check with your allergist before hunting for alternatives because it might not be necessary - and a free phone call is easy enough.


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## Susie

That is a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why you don't want to do CP.  I truly do hate to hear that, though!  I understand the desire(truly it is a need) to have one or two things you can be completely independent on.  Very important to have something like that.  

I am going to answer your questions from earlier, not trying to push you to make CP, OK?  You know what you are capable of far better than me.

1.  I soap using the heat transfer method.  It means that just as soon as the NaOH is dissolved into the water, I pour it over my solid oils and stick blend to melt the solid oils.  I then add that to the liquid oils(with EO added) and stick blend to trace.  Since I soap so hot, trace is usually in less than 15 minutes.  But, it does not give you time to get fancy swirls and such.  And you have to keep an eye on your mold for the first couple of hours to avoid over heating if you insulate to ensure gel.

2.  All of my oils(except EOs) are purchased at Walmart or Sam's.  I don't sell, so it keeps my cost down by avoiding shipping.

I am wondering if you could arrange to purchase some special order MP from a hand soap maker.  I know it is possible to make your own MP, but I think it takes a while.  Here is a video on making MP from scratch. 

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nw4CBN_RC0[/ame]


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## urchin

wow that last comment just made me start weeping.  i wish i had never started this thread.


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## urchin

thanks very much susie that was really helpful ... thanks for taking the time.  i'm going to read about the heat transfer method that sounds really interesting.  the video was really helpful too ... seems like making a soap base is as involved as making a great soap.  lol  i'd rather shoot for a finished soap than just end up with a base.  i'll have to get my stick blender out and see if i can handle it for fifteen minutes. lol  thanks again.


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## Susie

There are "experts" on this forum that think they know everything.  You are going to have to ignore them.  I am sure you have run into their kind before.  You hang in there, and let us know how it goes, ok?


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## Obsidian

urchin said:


> wow that last comment just made me start weeping.  i wish i had never started this thread.



Please don't feel bad that post might have sounded nasty but it was meant to be helpful even it it was blunt.

Here is a base that seems like it might be suitable for you.
http://www.brambleberry.com/Organic-Melt-Pour-Base-P4382.aspx


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## Hazel

urchin said:


> i guess i get scared because every time i read a recipe for cp it's always large batches in the large loaf molds.  i'm spoiled with the melt and pour because i can do one bar at a time if i want to.



You don't need to make a large batch. I make smaller batches when I'm trying a new recipe. The last batch I did was only 14 oz of oil. The total weight ended up being probably close to 23 (maybe 24) oz after including additives and fragrance. This gives me about 5 or 6 bars. You just want to make sure you have an accurate scale since a small inaccuracy in weight can make quite a bit of difference when working with small amounts. 

For molds, you can use small plastic containers which have PP#5 or HDPE 2 on the bottom. These will withstand the heat produced by the saponification process. I also use melt and pour molds for some CP batches but I put them in the frig to prevent gelling. This way the molds don't warp from the heat. 

It can get expensive buying oils in smaller amounts but you can easily get started with oils from the grocery to see if you even like making soap from scratch. Olive, coconut, palm (Spectrum brand), sunflower, safflower are all in the cooking aisle. You can also find small bottles of castor oil in the pharmacy area. It is expensive to buy castor in the small bottles but you won't need a lot for a small batch. You also don't have to even use castor; although, I really like it since it helps to stabilize lather, increases bubbles and adds a little creaminess. 

Really, the only two oils you'd need would be olive and coconut. However, it does take olive to trace a little longer but it's not too bad with a stick blender. You don't even need to blend until trace. As long as you've blended long enough for the oils to achieve a stable emulsion, you can pour it into a mold and it will saponify. I do suggest you use a little less water and blend at a higher temp to help with a faster emulsification or trace. If you decide you'd like to try this, please let me know and I'll help you with soapcalc so you can calculate the lye amount. 

Also, you can order lye online and most (if not all) will be in 2 lb containers. So it shouldn't be too hard to handle the container.

Just ask if you have questions. :grin:

eta: I forgot to mention - since you do MP, then you probably have fragrances and colorants for it. Not all fragrances and colorants which are fine for MP will do well in CP. FOs can cause a batch to accelerate and seize or the fragrance can morph or fade. Colorants may not be stable and you can get some unexpected colors or the color can fade.


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## snappyllama

I second everything Hazel said.  There are tons of great video resources out there if you're considering getting into CP.  Soaping101 is a great place to start on youtube.

Good luck on finding the right M&P base or joining the CP cult.


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## sassanellat

Susie said:


> There are "experts" on this forum that think they know everything.  You are going to have to ignore them.  I am sure you have run into their kind before.  You hang in there, and let us know how it goes, ok?



There sure are. Some are even snippy with people all the time because they have trouble with people that actually know more than they do. 

Of course, there are a lot of other nice people like to provide useful information that might save folks a LOT of agony and effort when it's not necessary, which I'm sure that you could appreciate as a nurse. Celiacs is certainly tough to deal with, but as you know, the care for the condition is specific. Hopefully our mutual friend take good care of herself under the advisement of a physician.


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## Susie

I was going to be "snippy" to let you know what snippy actually is.  However, I am going to take the high road here and just tell you what I know.  

This is about the 20th(maybe more) person with celiac plus more than one auto-immune condition that I have encountered that has a problem with gluten anywhere in their environment.  Even a flour and glue ornament(made by a grandchild) that had been painted with a couple of coats of paint and dipped in polyurethane to try to seal it.  I am not sure exactly what the mechanism is, but this patient did not even know what that ornament was made of.  She had a huge flare up of everything(MS, celiac, lupus...and I forget the rest) starting a couple of weeks before Christmas.  Took us days to figure out what the trigger was.  We ended up taking a picture of the ornament and hanging that on the tree.  End of flare up.

I KNOW it does not make sense according to most literature.  However, it is what it is.  And you science people need to talk to more patients.  Maybe some will understand what you really need to be researching and studying.


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## sassanellat

Thanks for being cordial - and I don't write if I'm not sure what I'm writing about is 100% correct. I think we misinterpret each other's tone. And I am a science person that is most definitely immersed in the situation you mention, at one of the top medicals centers in the world. I do medial research, primarily on samples of voluntary patients, and I train doctors and nurses there (and elsewhere, mostly undergrad nursing students from disadvantaged areas), so I am very familiar with the day to day chatter about cases. I do all of the same training as the staff does since we are in the same building. I also have six people in my personal life that currently deal with one form or another of gluten disease that rely on me for advice. This is a complex issue as you pointed out, so it's hard to explain briefly, so I'm afraid my brevity had an unintended result (as obsidian suggested). I've already sent a direct PM. 

Here's the latest scoop on gluten: there are two different diseases with completely different pathways going on! One (Celiacs) is an autoimmune disease, where the gluten must be eaten and only happens when gluten binds to the microvilli in the gut. It's very serious and has long term implications. The other is a gluten allergy (totally different pathway, meds, treatment, etc.) and you can get the reactions from contact with your (external) skin as well as by eating it. You can have none, either, or (rarely) both. The treatment for Celiacs can mask the proper culprit sometimes, and that's part of the reason why people have such an awful time correctly diagnosing the issue at hand and treating it well (plus, avoiding gluten is really hard). I posted only because Celiacs was mentioned, but the symptoms of the allergy were being described. Your example is also that type - an allergic/histamine reaction which will cause MS, lupus, etc. to flare (and is usually treated with benadryl and/or prednisone). I was hoping that a gentle prod to make a phone call might prompt her MD to think of this, so her treatment could be reassessed in light of the topical sensitivity because that shouldn't happen in textbook Celiacs and probably isn't part of the treatment regimen. We're seeing more people having both reactions here, too, which is bad. I hope that helps. 

(And just an FYI - a fairly large chunk of the government funded research budget is administered by the NIH, which is a combination of PhDs and MDs at the top of their fields. They decide what we research, so there is a lot of direct input from what's going on now on the floor. Being practical like yourself, I wish I had more control over those choices.)

Yes, I know... back to soaping. But this is a bit relevant: if you use a starch for a scent fixative (like I do if I don't want to use clay),  I always pick cornstarch or arrowroot because it's gluten-free for this very reason.


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## Susie

One last thing, since I think the OP will read this and it may help her and others.   If every doctor were as up-to-date as we would all wish on every disease/condition that they treat, it would be a much better world.  However, we in the medical field know that just is not so.  However, the OP could(and SHOULD) do her homework on the computer and print out the info from the NIH and other reliable medical research facilities and bring it to her doctor on her next visit(could you suggest any?).  Sometimes we have to educate our doctors, and that is a shame.  And yes, the incidence of having both Celiac's and the allergic reaction has grown astronomically in my (limited) experience.  It is so common now that I made the leap from Celiac's/MS right to the allergic reaction just from what she said about soap sending her to bed.

Thank you for writing the long version of what you were trying to say.  That was extremely helpful and educational(for me as well as the OP).  Maybe we medical folks need to undo that training that we only use the minimum amount of words needed.


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## lionprincess00

I read on several celiac message boards. The main reason they are hypervigilant about avoiding lotions, soaps etc with gluten is because one bubble in the mouth when washing face, one drop of lotion in a shaving nick introduces the gluten and is a potential for a reaction. They do not want to endure a reaction so they avoid triggers externally as well as internally. It seems unnecessarily excessive, at first glance.
But...

My RA (rheumatoid arthritis better called rheumatoid disease) has left me more understanding today of others than I ever was before regarding their medical problems. If I had a celiac problem, I'd avoid it too I bet.

If it makes you worried and uncomfortable...then we need to find a better soap base!

So I will attempt to find a base you can use comfortably. I checked bramble berrys GM MP base, and aloe base, both have oat protein. I'll keep looking. The link obsidian posted is gluten free.

Honestly, cp is easier than mp in my opinion. But that's just me lol.

And I looked before posting. Voila!

http://www.naturesgardencandles.com.../nat-goat/-goats-milk-melt-and-pour-soap.html 

Nature's garden claims ALL their bases are gluten free. So if you don't was goat milk, you can get a different base there and be certain there isn't gluten.


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## Stacy

urchin said:


> i'll have to get my stick blender out and see if i can handle it for fifteen minutes



This might seem like strange minutia, but if you have a problem with muscle weakness, you'll want to pay attention to the switch. There are ones you need to hold on and ones that toggle on and off. Perhaps if yours isn't the toggle, you can find one that is.

I only know this because my Mother has a lot of issues with weakness in her hands and I remember when I bought a new SB without the toggle, thinking how she wouldn't be able to use it very long.

Best of luck in your search, I hope making your own works for you.  There's nothing like the peace of mind independence can bring with something this important.


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## new12soap

WSP seems to have several detergent free MP bases without any gluten. Some of these DO contain oatmeal, but they all have the ingredients clearly spelled out. There is a $40 minimum to order from them, but shipping is included. You may want to try a couple of different ones, and a few nice scents...

http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/soap-making-supplies/melt-pour-soap-base/detergent-free.aspx

http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/detergent-free-goat-milk-soap-2-lb-tray.aspx

http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/detergent-free-honey-soap-2-lb-tray.aspx

I hope you find something that works for you. I agree, soaping should be fun and relaxing, not stressful or scary, and if this is what works best for you then get to it!


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## urchin

thank you all for your suggestions.  i didn't want it to be about me proving that i have celiac disease ... that it exists ... and don't want to use gluten products, but .... at any rate.

special thanks to Seven for the suggestion of trying out Essentials by Catalina because that's what i ended up buying and I LOVE IT!  it is the best base i have used ... hands down.  i bought the sls free white base and so far have made made goat's milk, honey, oatmeal ... lavender & rosemary ... shea butter with ylang ylang & lemon ... and they all turned out superb.  every time i use them i get a big smile on my face ... and that's what i was going for.   the EBC base cuts great, it melts great, it takes additives great, it's easy to work with.  i'm one happy soap creator.

my hubby brought the twenty pound chunk in from the mail man and helped me get it out of the box and cut into smaller chunks.  i am so glad that i took the chance and went for it because i love the EBC soap base.  thanks again seven.


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## lenarenee

Urchin I'm   so happy to hear that you've found  a solution that you love! 

Are you still interested in cold process?  You commented about the difficulty in using a stick blender for 20 minutes, but there are many possible recipes where stick blending only takes a minute or two.  There are videos on  YouTube  that can give you an idea of the entire process from melting to finish.  You are the best judge of what works and what doesn't work for you, in any area of your life.

By the way, I have great respect for anyone who can enjoy melt and pour, whether they have challenges or not. While waiting  for a lye order to arrive I made two batches of m&p.  One took me 6.....yes 6....hours!  The other took 4!  One was a simple - dump some extra soap bits in the mold with m&p poured over it, the other was 2 layers with an embed. 

Melt and pour is not for wimps!


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## cmzaha

urchin said:


> thank you all for your suggestions. i didn't want it to be about me proving that i have celiac disease ... that it exists ... and don't want to use gluten products, but .... at any rate.
> 
> special thanks to Seven for the suggestion of trying out Essentials by Catalina because that's what i ended up buying and I LOVE IT! it is the best base i have used ... hands down. i bought the sls free white base and so far have made made goat's milk, honey, oatmeal ... lavender & rosemary ... shea butter with ylang ylang & lemon ... and they all turned out superb. every time i use them i get a big smile on my face ... and that's what i was going for.  the EBC base cuts great, it melts great, it takes additives great, it's easy to work with. i'm one happy soap creator.
> 
> my hubby brought the twenty pound chunk in from the mail man and helped me get it out of the box and cut into smaller chunks. i am so glad that i took the chance and went for it because i love the EBC soap base. thanks again seven.


Glad to see you were able to handle the block, my daughter goes through over a pallet a year of Catalina's bases. They were going to stop manufacturing their bases and go to just Stephens bases which my daughter says is miserable stuff to work with. We were going to help you out and send you what you needed cut up.


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## urchin

thanks carolyn z ... i know why your daughter goes through a pallet of the EBC base in a year ... because it's fantastic!   oh my that would suck if they stopped making it and just went with stephensen's.  i bet your daughter makes some amazing soaps with it.  you and your daughter are very kind to have thought of sending me some cut up base ... very kind indeed.  thankfully i've got twenty pounds to play with now.   thanks again carolyn.   

lenarenee my stick blender is an older one that i have to hold the button in on.  i just made some lotion and it took about four - five minutes to emulsify and i thought my hand would fall off. lol so, no i'm not doing cold process any time soon.  One day I may decide to go for it though.  I know layered melt and pour is a chore for sure.  I bet yours looks better than mine.  Layering is tedious, but when it comes out good it’s really pretty … mine didn’t come out so good.  I’m more into moisturizing lather and fragrance right now.  It’s just a simple pleasure in life that has me addicted to making soaps and cleaners with essential oils and botanicals.  It’s an awesome addiction to have.

Thanks all and have a great weekend … I’m off to make some more m & p soap.  Cheers.


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## Seawolfe

Im so glad you found a base that you like! I'd love to see pictures of what you're making with it.


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## urchin

seawolfe suggested i post photos of some of the soaps i've made.  well here goes ... hope this works.

creating melt and pour soaps is such a great creative outlet.

wishing everyone a very merry christmas and happy holidays.


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## Hazel

They're all great but I especially like the owls. Those are cute! Do you mind me asking where you got the mold?

Happy Holidays to you and your family.


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## Sheila Pullar

I agree the Owls are really sweet x


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## urchin

Hazel & Sheila ... i got the owl mold from amazon.  it is silicone and listed as a cake mold.  my husband actually wanted it because he thought it would make for an easier to hold onto bar of soap ... he was tired of the ovals being too slippery and shooting out of his hand.  he was right ... the owl shape makes for an easy to hold onto soap.  they really are adorable little owls.  it's a six compartment mold and each holds 3.6 ounces.

here's the link -  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J7XNWUQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20.

Merry Christmas!

sharon in FL


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## Hazel

Thank you! I'm going to order one as a Christmas gift for myself. 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!


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## Ellacho

Urchin, those are beautiful! Love all!


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## Sheila Pullar

Thank you! The Owls are temporary out of stock. I will try again soon x


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## bbrown

I was just researching a natural base and came across this site:
http://www.elementsbathandbody.com/Soap-Base-Melt-and-Pour-Shea-Butter.html

They make no mention of discontinuing and their list of what isn't in the soap is impressive.  It does have oat protein in it but is still gluten free.  
I'm ordering a batch from them because I like the fact that it's gluten free and detergent free, as well as paraben free.


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## HoneyLady

I'm also in the camp of having medical issues that Western medicine are clueless about.  Some of that is the "mind set".  There is nothing wrong with a desire to quantify (weigh, measure, dissect) the world around us -- great medical strides have been made! But there is more to the philosophy, Horatio, than Heaven and Earth have dreamt of . . . :angel:  Sometimes docs just "treat the disease the patient has".  They forget to "treat the patient that has the disease"!

I have mild Celiac, and I can eat limited amounts of gluten, sometimes. I can use it on my skin.  But, it depends on the day, the phase of the moon, the state of my other medical issues, and some mysterious X Factor(s) I've yet to identify.  

But then, many of us on this forum are old enough to remember when science swore on a stack of Bibles that there was ABSOLUTELY NO physical reason for cramps, PMS, and depression.  It was ALL in our heads, made us unfit to work outside the home for decades, and made us physically and mentally unable.  

Now we know better.  :mrgreen:

To the topic:  I would seriously consider making CP.  As for the stick blender, I've never yet used mine for more than 30 seconds.  BUT . . .

But, all my soaps contain beeswax, so I soap at about 100-110 degrees.  And all my soaps contain Coconut oil, palm kernel flakes, and lard, as well as castor oils.  They set up quickly.  I SB in a 5 second burst after adding lye mixture to the oils to emulsify.  Then I add the FO and whisk for a good 20 seconds.  Then if need be, I SB in 5 second bursts.  You won't need anything like the lotion you made.

(As another note, I use Swift Crafty Monkey's "heat and hold" methods, and I don't need to mix those for 30 minutes, either.  I think HEAT is the key, here.)

I *do* have to be cautious about FOs that seize.  But even those can be saved -- I let them set up, then rebatch them when they sneak up on me.

You might also consider rebatch soaps.  Brambleberry has some great rebatch, and lots of nice tutorials.

Good luck to you, and feel better!

~HoneyLady~


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