# You get what you pay for!



## Seifenblasen

Warning: serious vent   :evil: 

I just threw away some $50, not counting shipping costs, worth of "essential oils".  Normally I get EO from Brambleberry, Soap Making Resources, and Majestic Mountain Sage, and never had  a problem with them.  The week before I was getting lye, tallow, etc. from xxx Depot and saw that they have some great prices for EO, so I ordered some.  Just got done making a 4-lb batch of soap, and while blending the EOs, I noticed the lavadin and cedar both smell "chemical - y".  The lavadin actually smelled more like some cheap FO.  I went and check the bergamot, and cypress I bought, and they both smelled very artificial.  So four bottles of 4oz. "EO" in the trash and an emergency trip to the local health food store to get some real cedar EO, I am cranky and tired.  (As for the lavadin, I just used some expensive lavender I have on hand).

So the moral of the story is, if the prices of EO seem too good to be true, don't be tempted to go cheap!


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## DragonQueenHHP

I have gotten several of mine from WFMed it is a Ebay store and I have to say good prices and so far great product and they ship FAST I tend to have my order 2 days after I place it


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## Seifenblasen

Thank you, DragonQueen!  I will check out that eBay store.


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## ClaraSuds

Sadly, most EOs are adulterated with various synthetic and natural components to both bring the price to a level the market will bear and to improve a poor oil so it can be sold. Most people will not know the difference between an EO that's been altered and stretched and one that hasn't. The suppliers of very high quality oils are enormously expensive, yet that reflects the true cost of an essential oil. Usually a lot more than the average consumer is willing to pay. 

France exports more Lavender oil than it actually produces. That's because it's EO is being stretched and improved with synthetic components and other cheaper oils that are only detectable by an expert and gas chromatography. It's estimated that 90% of all essential oils sold are actually a melange of synthetic components and an essential oil, often altered at source before the distributors and retailers even see them. It's for this reason I don't fragrance my soap as even the more common EOs aren't what we think they are.  :cry: 

I do purchase high quality EOs for perfumery and even the price of a simple lavender will surprise you. These are oils that the retailer sources directly from a traditional distiller. The distillery gets a higher price for their product and an incentive to maintain it's quality, rather than having their products auctioned off to market dominators who's main objective is to sell a lot of oil at a lower price point. One has to wonder what a realistic price is for a substance that is difficult and costly to produce and consumes vast amounts of plant material in it's manufacture. Most essential oils of undiluted quality are too expensive to buy in sizes larger than a 1/2 Oz. 

Sometimes this extending is as simple as mixing a higher quality EO with a cheaper but similar smelling EO of another plant. That does change the scent profile somewhat which is then rectified by adding the notes which are now 'off' synthetically. Rosemary oil is routinely extended with eucalyptus, they smell similar in the top note but the drydown is different. Ever bought a rosemary EO that you thought for sure was eucalyptus? Now you know why. Other times a poorly produced oil, lets say lemon is recitified by having synthetic citral added to it, to make it more lemony and what the consumer expects. Therefore more marketable. 

The reality is that we are now so accustomed to synthetic versions of scents that we do not have an acute understanding of what the real thing smells like. Coconut is a really good example of this. That scent we all recognise as coconut doesn't smell much like natural coconut odour which I find to be quite nauseating. We've been conditioned to a version of it which has copious amounts of coumarin added in order to make it more palatable to people. I've never come across an apple that smells anything like synthetic apple fragrance which has been constructed to trigger our brain receptors to think 'apple' when we smell it. I'm actually really fascinated with the overt conditioning of our sense of smell by cosmetic and food manufacturers. The brain can be tricked easily with certain chemicals, some of them have no odour in and of themselves but they trigger a certain memory response in the brain so that we think we are smelling a certain thing.


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## Seifenblasen

Thank you, ClaraSuds for your insightful explanation!

As much as I want to try using FOs in soap making, they simply don't smell "right" to me.  Nor the cheap so-called-EOs.   And I have not got the point that I can be happy with unscented soap.  Which is why I try to use a cheaper version of the real thing, i.e., lavadin instead of lavender.  Perhaps I have to accept a certain percentage of synthetics in the EOs, as long as it is low enough that I cannot detect it with my nose!  

The alternative is maybe going back to making the very first soap I made: milk chocolate soap.  The scent came from using an insanely high percentage of unrefined, organic, food grade cacao butter and organic cacao powder.


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## ClaraSuds

Wow! Those soaps look great. I want some!  :shock: 

Yeah it's a depressing realisation about the eo industry and honestly we are more likely to come into contact with numerous unwanted synthetics just standing in an elevator. It's not like we can avoid synthetics since most people waft around in a cloud of them daily. Not all synthetics are harmful either. I initially wanted to create all natural perfumes, believing that all but the cheapest eo's were pure and that it was an easy goal to achieve. The discovery that even with the best intentions and paying high prices you still cannot absolutely guarantee purity was a shocking and depressing blow to my ideals.  :cry: Yet, the next realisation that came was that even the very food we eat and anything packaged in plastic is laced with synthentic fragrance anyway. It's impossible to avoid them and strangely that made me relax about the whole issue. I still aim to create perfumes from natural sources but I cannot guarantee what I create won't have a dash of such and such here and there. My main interest in natural perfumery is to discover what perfume actually smelt like before ISO E Super took over cosmetics counters everywhere. I'd like to know what real perfume used to be like. 

Tangent - I watched this great documentary about food flavouring and the fact that McDonalds food tastes identical the world over has nothing to do with the actual food. They've had someone create the flavour of McDonalds in a lab.  :shock: 

Anyway, the ones to watch out for are synthetic musks. They don't actually biodegrade and have been shown to cause hormonal disruption in the human body. A dash of synthetic lavender compounds in your lavandin isn't going to do you much harm and you will get a bigger hit of that walking the laundry aisle of your supermarket. I knew with soap my choice was go synthetic or go fragrance free. I made the decision to scent my leave-on body products with high grade eo's and enjoy their aroma that way as it's more affordable. The soaping experience I can handle fragrance free. 

For anyone that's interested here's an article on adulteration of eo's.

http://www.naha.org/articles/adulteration_1.htm


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## Seifenblasen

Thanks for the heads up about synthetic musks!  I will do my best to avoid them.

I spent my childhood outside of the US.  When you say real perfume, it brings back memory of the of real sandalwood incense in the temples of China and India (back when they still had and used the real stuff), the rose attar and musk on the Arabs I went to school with, and the jasmine and other flowers (that I have no idea what their English names are) sold in the markets in Asia.  I also remember buying chunks of sandalwood and some unknown resins and placed them in my dresser.  Unfortunately most North Americans seem to prefer the lighter, fruitier, aldehyde-type scents as indicated by the commercial perfume market.



> Tangent - I watched this great documentary about food flavouring and the fact that McDonalds food tastes identical the world over has nothing to do with the actual food. They've had someone create the flavour of McDonalds in a lab.



Maybe that's why I can detect some of the synthetics when used in higher percentage in the "EOs".  I have a very sensitive nose (some friends joke about me being part dog!) and most likely due to not flooding my surroundings, especially food, with artificial flavorings as I hate fast food, make most things from scratch, and try to get most food items at the least adulterated state from farmers I know.  

It is not that I am such a snob that I won't use FOs.  They simply don't smell right to me.  

I think the direction I should take is: avoid stuff that are actually harmful (such as synthetic musks, FO with phthalates, etc.), and then just "go with the nose".


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## ClaraSuds

You sound like a kindred spirit... :wink:  I've a big interest in real scents and also arab perfumery. It sucks when our time and money is wasted on products that are not as they are represented to be. I recently bought some high grade natural resin incense from a supplier who then charged me the entire cost of the product again (over $30!) to ship an item which would easily fit in a small letter envelope. When I queried that I got a ' sorry its not my problem what the post office charge' email in reply. So disappointing. Not because of the money but because I thought I'd finally found a great supplier of something I really wanted but it wasn't to be. :evil:


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## judymoody

I have gotten excellent quality EOs for what I consider to be reasonable prices from New Directions Aromatics, Liberty Natural, Brambleberry, Camden Grey, The Scent Works (FCC grade), and Essential Oil University (now the Perfumery).  I have no reason to believe that they have been adulterated or cut.  Obviously real sandalwood and rose otto will set you back, but I have found many basic EOs that aren't meaningfully more expensive than FOs per weight.  Within my budget there is a bewildering array of choices if you are interested in experimenting with blends.


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## Seifenblasen

I have good experience with Brambleberry.  The prices are reasonable and the quality is consistent.  And since I am using EOs more for scent and less for therapeutic purposes, I am OK with that.  

Not so happy with Camden Grey as I had some bergamot that smell "salty".  The ones I threw away from XXX Depot , I swear I can smell synthetics in them.


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## judymoody

I have seen complaints on the internet about quality from Camden Grey but in my experience, everything I've purchased from them has smelled as it should.


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## twoblooms

So sorry to hear that. I used to purchase from a supplier when I was new and didn't realize until I purchased from another supplier that these EO's were a lot weaker.
So I figured they must have been diluted hence why they were cheaper then everyone else.  It is frustrating for sure. 

Hope your soap turns out well.


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## birdcharm

Although I have not yet ordered any lavender essential oil from the following, I'm sure it's authentic and have heard wonderful things about them ... they are not too far from me so I should go there one day!  It's called Imagine Lavender and I believe the site address is http://www.imaginelavender.com ... I didn't look up my notes before posting, however. Just thought I would offer this anyway, as I'm sure this is authentic U.S. grown lavender essential oil. 

Kathy 

P.S.  Sorry to hear about your purchase ... we've all done it at some point, some of us, even to tears.  We only have so much in our scent budget, and those decisions we make are so vital, and when we find that we've made the wrong choice, it's always frustrating.  But, it's all part of finding where the good suppliers and scents are and often leads us to better things and purchasing plans. If I were you, I would find alternative sources for the other products you purchased from this company as well.  That will make you feel better too.


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## Seifenblasen

Kathy, thank you very much for the link!    

I will definitely check out other products from this site.  Sometimes it is a matter of priority.  I am OK with cutting corners in other areas to make my budget work but I do not begrudge paying a little bit more for things I put inside (i.e. food) or outside my body (soap, skincare products) to minimize exposure to questionable chemicals.  It also makes me feel good to know that the products are from some countries (US, western Europe, etc.) that workers are for the most part treated fairly.


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## lisamaliga

Seifenblasen said:
			
		

> Warning: serious vent   :evil:
> 
> 
> So the moral of the story is, if the prices of EO seem too good to be true, don't be tempted to go cheap!



I've also been tempted by the cheapies...but I've learned my lesson! Thanks for the reminder!


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## Seifenblasen

That's it, EO or bust!   :twisted: 

In the last month I have made two batches of CP using FO that everyone raves about:  Nature's Garden's Crackling Birch and Brambleberry's Spiced Mahogany.  I SO wanted to like them, because of the lower cost and simplicity (somebody already did the blending for me), but they just don't smell right.

Another lesson learned.  Back to EO only.  And if I cannot afford expensive EOs, use cheaper ones like peppermint or what not.  Or go scent-free.


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## DragonQueenHHP

Peppermint may be more cost effective it is also one most everyone likes I have found


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## Lindy

Something just to think about.  Once you start selling (or if you are already selling) people love FO's and even if you personally don't like them (I make soaps with scents I don't like) your customers do.  I love EO's but I also know I need to increase my price for soaps that are scented with them and my customers have come to understand that too.

I just wanted to throw that out there....  :wink:


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## Seifenblasen

Lindy, thanks for the tip!  

I am not selling nor have any plans to sell, especially after reading Tabitha's post.   :shock:   I barter a little bit with some friends and co-workers.  I don't have a yard to grow things so I give them soap they give me buckets of raspberries, bunches of lavender, etc.  

But, perhaps I could keep the EO soaps to myself and pawn the FO soaps to them!

Thank you again!


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## green soap

I prefer unscented to most FOs.  I love EO blends!  

I do sell soap, and I use FOs mostly in response to customer demand.  Folks ask me for coconut, lilac, rose, fruits, scents that are either too expensive as EOs, or just don't exist.  So I use some FOs.  I do not mind the scent from a distance, as they cure in my house.  When I sniff them close some of them smell too strong to me though!

So I do not dislike them, I just would not choose them to bathe with.  I rather do all EO, or simply unscented.  The exception might be vanilla.  I really like the vanilla FO I got, and I would consider bathing with a soap scented with vanilla.


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## Frigga

Thanks for the informative posts guys! I've been working on my skincare products for almost a year now, and I think that I'm ready to start trying to get my line ready for selling, but I was too nervous about buying essential oils online because I was afraid of getting inferior oils that had been cut and adulterated. I think that I have a good springboard now, in regards to companies to work with in finding good quality essential oils at reasonable prices. I have an aphrodisiacal lubricant that I created that my friends absolutely adore, but the essential oils alone for just a 2 ounce bottle of carrier oil was costing me $15, using essential oils I had bought at my local herbalist store. Stuff like that I would love to be able to sell, but at my current costs, I wouldn't be making any profit. 

I'm so glad to be able to peruse the forum and get useful tidbits like this.


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## AlchemyandAshes

Frigga said:
			
		

> I have an aphrodisiacal lubricant that I created that my friends absolutely adore, but the essential oils alone for just a 2 ounce bottle of carrier oil was costing me $15, using essential oils I had bought at my local herbalist store. Stuff like that I would love to be able to sell, but at my current costs, I wouldn't be making any profit.



When you say "lubricant", I'm assuming you mean something that will come in contact with sensitive mucous membranes? I would SERIOUSLY advise against that, especially if you have any thoughts of selling it. EOs on mucous membranes can be very dangerous and cause serious irritation. Besides, if its costing you $15 in Essential Oils to create a 2oz bottle in carrier oil, you would have to be using WAY too much, no matter what EO you're using. In 2 oz, you would be measuring in drops of EO. My suggestion for an "aphrodisiacal" product would be either a massage oil or solid perfume with (possibly) the same EOs you're using now at a rate of no more than 3%. Not trying to be "preachy"...just concerned when I read the TYPE of product being made with EOs.

As for the original post, I have had good experiences with Camden-Grey. My experiences with Essential Depot have been varied. My Juniper, Bergamot, and Geranium were up to par, but Ylang Ylang in particular was questionable. Unless you have smelled a high quality, unadulterated Essential Oil, many people wouldn't know what one SHOULD smell like...and honestly, unless you know exactly where your oil is derived and manufactured, you can't know for a fact if it is "pure" no matter the smell. I struggle with this, as I only use EOs in my products. I'm not naive enough to think that they are always  "safer" than synthetic FOs or that I don't come in contact with a million synthetics everyday. I just do my best to educate myself and make choices based on the information available.

With that being said, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that you get what you pay for! If you find Sandalwood, Jasmine, or Rose Absolute $20 for 15ml...I can guarantee it IS NOT the real deal!


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## Frigga

I am using Simplers Essential Oils, and the Rose Otto alone was costing me $7.20, using 3 drops, as each drop is $1.80, as the 1 mL vial I bought from my herbalist shop cost me $38. As I said, I need to get wholesale pricing.


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## maxxx39

I've been going to Whole Foods for the cheapest EO's I can get and have done pretty well on Ebay long as I use a top rated seller not a fly by night company...


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## AlchemyandAshes

Whole Foods is WAY overpriced on EOs. You'd be better off ordering online, even in small amounts with shipping. For instance, 1/3 oz of Aura Cacia Juniper Berry Oil is about $15 at Whole Foods. I can get 4 oz from Camden Grey for $20.50 plus shipping...still cheaper. Whole Foods may be a good resource on the fly or just to sample an oil, but in the long run, an online wholesaler/retailer would be more cost effective.
As for eBay...I would be leery unless its one of the bigger retailers with an eBay store selling the EOs. I think DragonQueen mentioned WFMed having an eBay store that she has used. There are too many eBay sellers marketing fragrance oils as essential oils that I would be afraid of receiving something other than what I thought I purchased.
Check out www.camdengrey.com or New Directions Aromatics (I think that's the company name).


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## Seifenblasen

Since writing this rant, my new favorite places to get EOs are:

1.  Brambleberry, Majestic Mountain Sage, or Soap Making Resources if I am ordering something.  Very consistent in quality.

2.  Amazon (Now Brand) if I am not making an order of soap making supplies and need something quick.  Limited to more common types such as peppermint, lemon, etc.  Most of the time I got free shipping.

3.  Texas Nature Supply.  An odd duck, not the best in customer service but have some very interesting stuff.

3.  New Directions Aromatics, Mountain Rose Herbs, and Bulk Apothecary.  Good places for hard to find EOs.  Bulk Apothecary is less expensive than the first two; and I like the fact that the list the country of origin.

I have mixed experience with Camden Grey, and it is kind of far away for when you figure in the shipping, it is just easier to avoid it all together.  Have not had a chance to try the lavender supplier suggested by Kathy.


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## soapsydaisy

ClaraSuds said:


> The reality is that we are now so accustomed to synthetic versions of scents that we do not have an acute understanding of what the real thing smells like. Coconut is a really good example of this. That scent we all recognise as coconut doesn't smell much like natural coconut odour which I find to be quite nauseating. We've been conditioned to a version of it which has copious amounts of coumarin added in order to make it more palatable to people. I've never come across an apple that smells anything like synthetic apple fragrance which has been constructed to trigger our brain receptors to think 'apple' when we smell it. I'm actually really fascinated with the overt conditioning of our sense of smell by cosmetic and food manufacturers. The brain can be tricked easily with certain chemicals, some of them have no odour in and of themselves but they trigger a certain memory response in the brain so that we think we are smelling a certain thing.



I was just telling someone this same thing.  I have 5 kinds of natural lavender blends and 1 fragrance oil lavender. A woman came into my booth and smelled every soap in my booth. She told her friend that the FO soap was the only soap that actually smelled like lavender (to me it smells like fabric softener).


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## jenneelk

I have yet to find the quality, strength and Pureness (at least to my nose) as I find at Mountain Rose Herbs. They are pricey being organic but I can many times use 1/2 as much for the same result and a much better scent.
Some things like lavender I don't notice a difference as much and mix with WSP. But items like chamomile, tea tree!, orange, there really is a night and day difference.
Tea tree is one dislike from 5 suppliers and only MRH has a smell I consider correct and not rotten smelling.


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## bwendo

ClaraSuds said:


> Sadly, most EOs are adulterated with various synthetic and natural components to both bring the price to a level the market will bear and to improve a poor oil so it can be sold.



I agree - going after products based on price point alone is a recipe for disaster.  

For quality, we need to pay more - it's really that simple.

:-o


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## onugs

We could always do it ourselves:

http://www.heartmagic.com/EssentialDistiller.html


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## Stakie

onugs said:


> We could always do it ourselves:
> 
> http://www.heartmagic.com/EssentialDistiller.html



Darnit, now I want this!


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## heartsong

I've been using www.libertynatural.com for over 20 years now and their inventory, quality and customer service is outstanding! you can purchase any size from a dram to a drum...they grow their own lavender for e/o, too. located Willamette Valley, Oregon...the only drawback is their website is kind of a PIA to navigate, but well worth the extra time...a couple years ago I ordered some apricot (peach? I forgot which!) kernel oil & it smelled just like fresh peaches!


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## sperry

*has anyone tried to make their own EO's?*

Is it difficult?  expensive?  Sounds like a potential answer to some of the issues in this thread.


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## Eve

So... I know a Dutch webshop that sells EO for cheap. 5 euros for 10 ml lavender, 6 euros for 10 ml patchouli, 3 for 10 ml rhosemary, 2,50 for 10 ml lemongrass... They list it as essential oil, and some have 'this is 100% pure essential oil' in the description (like lavandin, 3 euros for 10 ml) but not all. Does this mean the other ones are diluted? They do list all the chemical compounds of the oil.
I have some oils from them that smell nice, pine and sandalwood. But I can't tell like that if they're synthetic.

Or is this not really cheap and is it just because I'm used to the health store prices of at least 8 euros for a small bottle.

Woooow so okay, edit. I found a HUGE information page on their site explaining exactly this problem. I think they're legit, they explain how they have trouble finding pure oils because the suppliers mess with it too, etc.
(hekserij.nl for people who are interested, they sell a lot of stuff for all kinds of chemical processes - soap making, but also perfumery and lots of other things)


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## dagmar88

That site is reliable.

And yes, you're probably used to retail prices.


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## Eve

Thanks!

(also I get why I thought of those prices as cheap... partly because I'm used to expensive prices, partly because I didn't know how much you where supposed to use - just made my first soap with EO, and the scent didn't come trough at all!)


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## namad

ClaraSuds said:


> Sadly, most EOs are adulterated with various synthetic and natural components to both bring the price to a level the market will bear and to improve a poor oil so it can be sold. Most people will not know the difference between an EO that's been altered and stretched and one that hasn't. The suppliers of very high quality oils are enormously expensive, yet that reflects the true cost of an essential oil. Usually a lot more than the average consumer is willing to pay.
> 
> France exports more Lavender oil than it actually produces. That's because it's EO is being stretched and improved with synthetic components and other cheaper oils that are only detectable by an expert and gas chromatography. It's estimated that 90% of all essential oils sold are actually a melange of synthetic components and an essential oil, often altered at source before the distributors and retailers even see them. It's for this reason I don't fragrance my soap as even the more common EOs aren't what we think they are.  :cry:
> 
> I do purchase high quality EOs for perfumery and even the price of a simple lavender will surprise you. These are oils that the retailer sources directly from a traditional distiller. The distillery gets a higher price for their product and an incentive to maintain it's quality, rather than having their products auctioned off to market dominators who's main objective is to sell a lot of oil at a lower price point. One has to wonder what a realistic price is for a substance that is difficult and costly to produce and consumes vast amounts of plant material in it's manufacture. Most essential oils of undiluted quality are too expensive to buy in sizes larger than a 1/2 Oz.
> 
> Sometimes this extending is as simple as mixing a higher quality EO with a cheaper but similar smelling EO of another plant. That does change the scent profile somewhat which is then rectified by adding the notes which are now 'off' synthetically. Rosemary oil is routinely extended with eucalyptus, they smell similar in the top note but the drydown is different. Ever bought a rosemary EO that you thought for sure was eucalyptus? Now you know why. Other times a poorly produced oil, lets say lemon is recitified by having synthetic citral added to it, to make it more lemony and what the consumer expects. Therefore more marketable.
> 
> The reality is that we are now so accustomed to synthetic versions of scents that we do not have an acute understanding of what the real thing smells like. Coconut is a really good example of this. That scent we all recognise as coconut doesn't smell much like natural coconut odour which I find to be quite nauseating. We've been conditioned to a version of it which has copious amounts of coumarin added in order to make it more palatable to people. I've never come across an apple that smells anything like synthetic apple fragrance which has been constructed to trigger our brain receptors to think 'apple' when we smell it. I'm actually really fascinated with the overt conditioning of our sense of smell by cosmetic and food manufacturers. The brain can be tricked easily with certain chemicals, some of them have no odour in and of themselves but they trigger a certain memory response in the brain so that we think we are smelling a certain thing.




Wow, very informative and you opened my eyes up. Thank you. PISSES ME OFF to be lied to haha  but I won't stop using the EO's. And how weird the way the brain works eh, goodness.


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## Second Impression

Ooooo Siefenblasen, I hope you demanded a refund! I got burned by the same company's "essential oils". The owner tried to tell me my soap was having some magical reaction with the water in my shower that was causing the Lavandin to smell like dirty kitty litter. I got my money back for the oils and got rid of the unused oils, never again will I buy essential oils from that company! 

Sent from my XT907 using Soap Making mobile app


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## squyars

Could we use this thread for people to post their favorite sources for their EO' s, FO' s and other soap making supplies?  I would love to hear where you all like to get your supplies and why.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2


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## paillo

I've had the opposite experience with EOs from XXX Depot. Maybe I've just been lucky with the ones I've ordered, but I love the Dalmation Sage, Bitter Orange and Ylang Ylang I've bought from them.

I mostly buy essential oils from New Directions Aromatics, though I wish they carried an 8oz size. Their prices are really reasonable, shipping is fast, and quality is great. Haven't tried Liberty Naturals yet, but have a wishlist stacked up from there. Mostly I buy lavender EO from a wonderful seller on EBay, Amore Lavender Farms, but she may be out of it for the year. Sun Pure Botanicals on Ebay, http://www.ebay.com/usr/sun_pure_botanicals, is excellent.

I'd buy more from BB, but can usually find better prices elsewhere, though I love them for supplies I can't get elsewhere.


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