# Introduction and Castile paste



## MzMolly65

Hello all,

This is my first time posting and my first time making soap.  I wasn't actually interested in making soap .. I'm a plaster artist and one process called Tadelakt requires waterproofing the plaster by spraying it with a special olive oil soap and then rubbing it until the soap has penetrated the plaster.

The ingredients on the container of Tadelakt soap I bought were listed as water, olive oil, potassium hydroxide.  I did a little research thinking I could make my own and now I'm a soap making addict ... but I haven't even made my first batch of soap yet, LOL!

The soap I need to make is based on the original soap used in the Turkish hammam's (baths).  The only recipe for this soap I have been able to find is:


Olive oil - 10.58 oz      (300 g.)
Coconut oil - 2.12 oz      (60 g.)
Castor oil - 1.41 oz      (40 g.)
Water - 4.94 oz (140      g.)
Potassium hydroxide      - 2.57 oz (72.92 g.)
SF 8% (enter the value of SF      in a soap calculator at the moment of calculating recipe)
Eucalyptus leaves      - 3.53 oz (100 g.)
[FONT=&quot]Eucalyptus essential oil - 0.28 oz (8 g.)

So ... since I don't want all the other oils and scents I used the lye calculator with KOH, 35% water, 100% OO and a SF of 8%.  Is that correct?  

I calculated a small batch so I wouldn't waste a lot of product in my first attempts (in case I flop)

Does it sound like I'm doing this right?  Any advice would be appreciated.  I have all my supplies and have been reading and watching videos for about a month, LOL!  I think I'm ready to try making this.

ETA: the Tadelakt soap I bought is a thick, clear paste that looks like hair gel and you mix it with water before spraying it on the plaster.  That brings up my next question .. can I put the gelled soap directly into containers?  Will it cool correctly?  
 [/FONT]


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## Yooper

I'm definitely no expert on liquid soap, but I have made a 100% castille soap and it came out very nice.

You don't want to superfat a liquid soap.  If you're worried about it being lye heavy, use at most 1-2% superfat.  Otherwise, it won't "work".  Generally, liquid soap is made with a slight excess of KOH, to ensure that all free fatty acids are neutralized.  You neutralize it (well, not to neutral but to a lower pH) later when you dilute.  

I diluted the paste to make liquid soap, but you can store the paste if you want.  Catherine Failor's book would be a great resource for you, as it has all the hows and whys of liquid soap and gel making.


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## Feather

I am also no expert in liquid soap.

Still, is the paste you buy superfatted? Is it neutralized?
(how are you going to test for that?)
I'd be concerned you are trying to produce a product and you don't know the answer to the two questions above. (assuming it works well with the application of it to the plaster)

As long as the bought paste works, you'd want to duplicate it. You'll have to know the answers to the three questions.


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## MzMolly65

Feather said:


> Still, is the paste you buy superfatted? Is it neutralized?
> (how are you going to test for that?)



Good questions that I don't know the answer to.  

I am piecing together bits of information I've found here and there.  

1.  A book I have on the Tadelakt process talks about using the same pure OO soap that is used in the bath houses.  

2.  The only recipe I could find (that I listed in my first post) listed superfat at 8% and said nothing about neutralizing.  Also, they take it to trace and then to thick opaque paste but they don't further heat the opaque paste to process it to gel stage, they put it in tightly sealed containers and leave it sit for a month to "ripen" (their word).  When it's ripened the finished product is a clear gel/paste and, 

3.  my only other bit of information is the ingredients listed on the container of purchased soap (posted in my original post as well).

Is it possible that leaving it to ripen, as they say, is what neutralizes it?  

They use the paste direct on the skin and hair without diluting it.  Plasterers add water only so they can spray it on the plaster but they are using the exact same soap that the bathers use.

I also want to clarify, I've seen the soap available for sale with eucalyptus in it, or with other things like lemon, orange, jasmine or rose .. etc, but the stuff plasterers use is always unscented and always just OO, water and KOH.  In other words the recipe sounds right to me but for my purposes I want to eliminate the ingredients not in the simple version the plasterers buy because the other ingredients might interfere with curing the plaster.  (or maybe plasterers just don't want the bathroom walls to smell like roses, LOL!)

Is there a way to test the purchased Tadelakt soap to find any answers?

ETA:  Oh ya, one guy in the USA says he just uses Kiss My Face OO bar soap to cure his Tadelakt (ingredients: Saponified Olive Oil, Water, Sodium Chloride) .. but he said he had to shred it and then dilute the shreds in water.  Seems time consuming to me and again, I'm thinking expense and I'd rather try making my own soap.


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## Lin

If you ARE superfatting, then I would say you don't need to neutralize it. It also sounds like their method is a cross between hot process and cold process, where they aren't bringing it to gel but leaving it alone for the remaining lye to saponify the fats at a low temperature. If you want to repeat this, I would go ahead with the superfat and do as they say to stop before gel, set the soap aside, and then ph test it to ensure its safe after its been sitting a while. In making cold process soap you don't neutralize because you have the superfat as a safety net for the lye calculation, and then zap test or ph test to ensure everything went smoothly.


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## MzMolly65

Thank you for this reply.  I'm excited to try this and hope it works.  Any idea what pH I'd be testing for?


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## Lin

someone may correct me here, but after its been sitting for a few days it will probably be around 9. If its still too high, test it again after a full week for before doing anything with the soap. In cold process, the soap is then left alone for a few weeks (up to months to harden castile bars) when the ph will further lower to around 7. Since this soap isn't for use on skin, I'd say as long as its not lye heavy (you could probably zap test the paste? lol, in zap testing you touch the tip of your tongue to a bar of soap to see if it tingles or zaps) its safe to use. But I don't know how the additional lowering of ph over time affects this use, in soap for skin it makes the soap milder.


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## Feather

Lin gave you very good advice.

I'd test the bought paste for PH with a PH tester or strips, then I'd make a paste of the same PH to assure the same paste will have the same affect on the plaster. (and as Lin said, let it sit until it is fully saponified and the PH is more toward 7)

The neutralizing can be time consuming. If you look around you'll see there is another process to make this using glycerin instead of water which is faster and there is no need to neutralize it. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VUGV_H7bZU[/ame]


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## MzMolly65

Thank you everyone .. the first batch of soap is in the crock pot now.  *crosses fingers*


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## whitetiger_0603

If you superfat after the paste is made,  you still need to neutralize.  Superfatting during can cause a fat excess and cloud your soap.  Or the extra fat will float or settle out after dilution. 

Feather,  how does the glycerine method not require neutralization?  Glycerin doesn't get saponified,  and it doesn't neutralize on its on as an additive like Citric Acid or Borax do.


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## Feather

whitetiger_0603 said:


> Feather,  how does the glycerine method not require neutralization?  Glycerin doesn't get saponified,  and it doesn't neutralize on its on as an additive like Citric Acid or Borax do.



Whitetiger, It was stated in the soaping 101 making the liquid soap video, no neutralization is needed for this method. Other than that, I'm just learning myself!


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## whitetiger_0603

Imma have to research that one later on.  That just sounds odd.


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## MzMolly65

Feather said:


> If you look around you'll see there is another process to make this using glycerin instead of water which is faster and there is no need to neutralize it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VUGV_H7bZU



Since I'm uncertain how glycerin would effect the plaster process I'm sticking to the basic ingredients that are listed on the purchased package.  If they've included anything else and they're not listing it ... I'm sure I'll find out the hard way.


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## Feather

MzMolly65 said:


> Since I'm uncertain how glycerin would effect the plaster process I'm sticking to the basic ingredients that are listed on the purchased package.  If they've included anything else and they're not listing it ... I'm sure I'll find out the hard way.



MzMolly, you'll learn the hard way first, and you'll be smarter for it. You go! I trust you and I'd love to hear how this all works out.

Glycerin is a natural byproduct of making soap, it may not affect the plaster in a negative way since soap has glycerin in it already without adding more glycerin.
If you look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponification
There is a picture on the right hand side of the page showing the molecules after saponification.

I was just thinking, that since the manufacturer of the product probably does it in the most expedient way, they may also be using the glycerin method, there is no way to know without asking them.


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## MzMolly65

Feather said:


> I was just thinking, that since the manufacturer of the product probably does it in the most expedient way, they may also be using the glycerin method, there is no way to know without asking them.



Not necessarily.  The soap is coming out of places like Turkey and Morocco where traditional Tadelakt plaster is still gently rubbed by hand for hours .. no mechanical processes used.  Even here in the west there isn't a way to mechanically speed up the Tadelakt, it's all done by hand.  

So it would not surprise me if the soap is also being made the traditional, slow, labourous way.

Either way, it's a fun experiment.  Right now my witches brew has been in the crock pot on high for several hours and while it traced fairly quick it has not gotten to the super thick paste stage yet.  It looks like it wants to so I'm still hopeful it's not a complete fail.  After it traced I left it alone except for 1/2 hour checks and stirs.  I'm uncertain what to expect because it's not acting the way the instructions or the videos have described it.


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## Feather

What is the reason for the process? What does it do to the plaster. I've just never heard of it and I'm very curious.


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## MzMolly65

Feather said:


> What is the reason for the process? What does it do to the plaster. I've just never heard of it and I'm very curious.



It soaks into the first few millimeters of the plaster and waterproofs it.  They use it for bathroom walls, tubs, sinks, etc.  I want to use it for birdbaths and outdoor furniture made from a cement base, then plastered with Tadelakt.  

I reread my instructions and realized I need to KEEP STIRRING .. not leave and stir every 1/2 hour.  So, jumped in and stirred ..

Currently have heavy mashed potatoes and stir stick will stand alone in it.   Grateful for friend with strong arm willing to help stir, LOL!

ETA: links to some tadelakt images
http://ecobrooklyn.com/tadelakt-moroccan-plaster-technique/
http://www.tadelaktetbois.fr/hammam-et-spa/realisations-de-hammams-en-tadelakt/
http://www.wilhelm-weiss.com/home/arbeiten/kalk/tadelakt/tadelakt.html


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## MzMolly65

HELP!  I think I put it away too soon.  My instructions say to take it to the hard stage and then wait a bit for it to soften again (beginning gel phase), then put it in an air tight container and let it "ripen" for 4 weeks.

I just checked the container and it's turned hard, so I'm thinking I put it in the container too soon.  Have I wrecked it?  Can I salvage it?


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## green soap

Perhaps you did not use enough water for a past like consistency?

For my liquid soap I use 800g water to dissolve the KOH needed to saponify 800g oils.  The paste is well, pasty.  Less water and it would be very dry.  More water would make it more spreadable.  I never let it ripen, I dilute it for liquid soap in a day or two, so not sure what effect ripening has.

Superfatting your soap makes neutralization unnecessary.  You can zap test it, more accurate than pH strips.

Good luck!  let us know how it goes.


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## Lin

Since the directions say to take it to the hard stage and then past that to gel, and its hard now but has not gelled yet, you could stick it back in the crock pot and heat it up until it just barely starts to gel and then remove it. Just a thought.

Typically with soap you nearly never ruin anything, almost everything can be salvaged in some way. So if you make a mistake that means you can't use it for the plastering, you can always use it for washing!


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## MzMolly65

I'm uncertain what's happening.  I read through my instructions several times just to make sure I've done things right.  It seems like I have but it's still not right.  There is the option, after hard stage to heat the mixture in either a double boiler or a crock on low for several hours until it gels rather than letting it gel through ripening for 4 weeks, although the ripening choice is the traditional way to make this.

Since it hardened last night I decided to put it back in the crock pot and then since it was late I decided to let it sit in the crock on low and gel (the fast option).  I came back to goopy, fuzzy pudding.  Still no gel.  Tested a blob in boiling water and it's foggy.

Any suggestions as to what's going on?  Or what I should do now?  Just because I don't know what else to do with it for now, I put it in a sealed container and insulated it (the slow, ripening way suggestion)


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## whitetiger_0603

OK,  I'm still uncertain of exactly what is going on here. Did you make true Castile Olive oil soap,  or did you buy it? Are you trying to dilute to a liquid or use it in paste form?


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## Lin

I didn't think it gels through the "ripening" stage, from your descriptions it sounded like their process is a combination between hot process and cold process soap making. In hot process the heat accelerates saponification, which is the process of the lye and oil going through the chemical change that produces a salt (soap). In cold process soap making, you leave the soap alone and give it time to saponify which can take a few days to complete (or even a week) until there is no lye left. Gel is a phase that occurs as the result of heat. It CAN happen during cold process because the saponification process releases heat, and if it produces enough heat and the heat stays long enough the soap will partial gel or full gel. But gel itself is not a requirement or a stage that always exists in soap making. You can avoid gel or encourage gel if you want. 

Its possible for you to have missed the gel stage when you put it back into the crock pot when it was already at the hard stage. Since you superfatted to 8% (I'm assuming you did since thats what was discussed earlier) you're not going to end up with a completely clear product. Its clear when all of the oils have saponified by the lye, superfatting is including MORE oils than will be fully saponified by the lye. 

Was your post always in this forum? haha. I could have sworn it was in the introduction section before. Maybe I'm confusing it with another post! I'm really hoping some experts will chime in because they can help much more than me. Can you post a photo of what the soap looks like right now? That should help.


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## Lin

whitetiger, she made the soap. She's trying to duplicate a specific method for a form of castile soap thats used in a plaster art. If you go back to the beginning of the thread it will make sense.


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## MzMolly65

Here's pics of the various stages.  It was only a tiny batch to get my feet wet.  
Trace 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Stiff 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Fluffy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Looks like starting to gel


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## MzMolly65

Fwiw .. these are pics of the various finished products (not mine)


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## green soap

It looks like you are getting the result you intended.   If it does not work out quite as you wanted, two things to consider:  more water and less than 100% olive oil.

As I mentioned previously, you seem to be using less than half the water that is usually recommended for liquid soap paste (based on KOH).  The other consideration is that making KOH soap with pure olive oil is a lot harder than when mixing in some coconut oil.  Even 20% CO 80% OO will make a big difference in the process.  Olive oil only liquid soap is actually quite difficult.  That is for diluted liquid soap though, it might be different for your application.  Still, since your original recipe called for less than 100% OO, there might be something to it.  So if I was you and trying this again I would double the water and use a 25% - 75%  coconut oil - olive oil ratio.


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## MzMolly65

green soap said:


> Still, since your original recipe called for less than 100% OO, there might be something to it.  So if I was you and trying this again I would double the water and use a 25% - 75%  coconut oil - olive oil ratio.



That was the only recipe I could find but the product I purchased was 100% OO so I tried to replicate that.  I was combining the recipe ratios (35% water) with the desire for 100% OO.

ETA: I don't know how coconut oil would effect the plaster but my friend has found some info that suggests other cultures mimic the Moroccan Tadelakt using other ingredients .. sooooo .. maybe it's another experiment to try.


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## whitetiger_0603

MzMolly65 said:


> That was the only recipe I could find but the product I purchased was 100% OO so I tried to replicate that.  I was combining the recipe ratios (35% water) with the desire for 100% OO.
> 
> ETA: I don't know how coconut oil would effect the plaster but my friend has found some info that suggests other cultures mimic the Moroccan Tadelakt using other ingredients .. sooooo .. maybe it's another experiment to try.




Ok, i read and re-read this whole thread and I'd like to offer my assistance if that's ok.  i'm still kind of confused as to what is going on, but i think i have a slight idea.

If you want to still go with straight OO, go for it.  Persoanlly, I think using percentages, while i know plenty of soapers use them, is a bit..confusing to say the least.  Just go for a simple lye calculator, preferably from Brambleberry or Summer Bee Meadow, and enter the amount of oils you want to use, and make sure you check the spot for KOH, not NaOH.  And no superfat.  You're using this for an art project, so I can't imagine you needing extra moisture provided by superfatting.  But that is your choice of course.  These calculators are programmed to acount for the impurities in KOH so they are the most accurate for liquid soap, that I've seen so far.The Brambleberry calculator is by far the simplest of the 2 to use.  Now, from my personal experience, I've seen that adding a little glycerine helps speed things up quite quickly.  I usually make large batches, 7lbs, so i use 4oz of glycerine added to the oils to heat up.  You can use less of course.  Glycerine is already a natural byproduct of soap, so the little extra really won't affect your final outcome.  Castile soap goes through a slow sap process and will look like runny mashed potatoes for a good bit before things move along to the next phase.  To also help things along, you need lots of heat.  170-200 degrees.  Heat is key in liquid soap making.  That, and the contant movement from stirring, so keep your stick blender going as long as you can without burning it out.  Now i don't know if the extra glycerine causes this, as it's only happened with my last soaping session, but the soap will souffle.  And it can get pretty big.  So when you start to seep your mixture rise, cut the heat and if you can remove the pot from the source.  Cap it and if your crock has a gasket seal on the lid like mine, push down on the lid to help seal in. My soaps literally tried to volcanoe out last time..actually it did with my first batch in my last session.  So I capped it tight and held on to keep from over flowing the second batch.  If none of this horrific episode happens to you like it did me, good on you.  Maybe it just was the mixture of oils i was using..it was pretty complex.  I honestly don't think Castile soap will do this, but I warned you, justi n case.  So lots of heat, and stirring.  When you get to trace, cut the heat down; depending on your crock, it may be going from 4 hour to 8 hour cooking time.  Or from high to warm. Continue stirring every 30 minutes to an hour, for 3 hours.  After that, it should be done, then you can allow to cook longer or remove it from the pot then dilute if that's what you need to do.  The biggest visual indicator that it's done is the transluscent stage of the past.

And the first video i ever saw that made sense to me and got me started in soap making:
[ame]http://youtu.be/oQQU4ltkqJ8[/ame]

Like the rest, I'm no expert.  I don't think there is such a thing in our hobby.  But liquid soap is all I do, so I'm always researching techniques to improve.  I hope I helped a little, or at least added something useful to this thread.


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## Feather

MzMolly65 said:


> It soaks into the first few millimeters of the plaster and waterproofs it.  They use it for bathroom walls, tubs, sinks, etc.  I want to use it for birdbaths and outdoor furniture made from a cement base, then plastered with Tadelakt.


Interesting application. I was reading a while about it. When the lime plaster starts to lose its waterproofing abilities, more liquid soap is applied. If the item/wall is often wet, the soap is applied every 6 months. If the item/sink is used daily, the soap is reapplied once a month. 

It reminds me of the process of candying fruit peels, the sugar water solution is repeated until the fruit peels are saturated with sugar and it has replaced all the water in the peel. The lime plaster is saturated with the soap and it provides a water proof like seal. Very neat stuff. What is really interesting, is that the water will leach out the soap little by little, but, it is cleaning as well. So no matter whether you spend lots of time and money on cleaning solutions for newer installations of plastic, caulk, tile, porcelain, the soap and lime plaster create their own cleaning solution.

I agree with whitetiger--whether you use glycerine in the beginning of the process or not, you've got glycerine in your soap, so it may not matter.
I'm of the mind that it doesn't matter if you use a pure olive oil solution or a solution of coconut oil and olive oil, you'll still have a soap solution and you'll have a good tadelakt product. Ultimately it will be, lime plaster saturated with glycerine/soap to achieve a long lasting finish with minor upkeep.


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## MzMolly65

okey dokey .. so a week after potting up the goo I look at it and it's slowly turning from an opaque paste to a clear gel.  I zap tested it and no zap so I decided to try my "tadelakt" soap in the bath (gosh don't I wish I had a Moroccan steam bath like was intended).

Soap doesn't smell pretty but doesn't stink either .. basically no surprise it smells like OO.  It goes on pasty, rubs in easy, rinses off super clean, water is slightly milky .. skin is squeaky but not dry, tub not oily.

However, I did notice a tingly feeling after the bath. (ETA: I did NOT use a scrubby) Is this normal for this type of soap or is this something I should be worried about?

I have a Tadelakt friend that I have promised a sample and she also wants to try it in the bath before she tries it on her plaster but she has psoriasis and I don't want her to risk something that might hurt her.  (my own skin I'm willing to risk)

Any thoughts folks?


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## whitetiger_0603

Did you hot process or cold process?  Hot process speeds along the curing time that saponifies all Lye,  and makes it usable almost immediately .  Cold process requires weeks to cure.


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## MzMolly65

whitetiger_0603 said:


> Did you hot process or cold process?  Hot process speeds along the curing time that saponifies all Lye,  and makes it usable almost immediately .  Cold process requires weeks to cure.



I believe what I did qualifies as hot process.  It was in the crock pot several hours on high and all day on low.


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## whitetiger_0603

MzMolly65 said:


> I believe what I did qualifies as hot process.  It was in the crock pot several hours on high and all day on low.



Yup that's hot process.  Then if it's a week later,  it should be Neutralized. Can't explain the tingle. Each persons skin reacts to pure soap differently.  Some people with skin conditions will see that the condition gets worse before it's better when they first try real soap.


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## MzMolly65

whitetiger_0603 said:


> Then if it's a week later,  it should be Neutralized.



Someone told me that because it's superfatted it didn't need to be neutralized.  Does that also mean it was safe to use as soon as it was taken out of the crock pot or did it still need to sit for a week or more before being used?


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## Feather

MzMolly65 said:


> Someone told me that because it's superfatted it didn't need to be neutralized.  Does that also mean it was safe to use as soon as it was taken out of the crock pot or did it still need to sit for a week or more before being used?


Is it neutralized or not? That is the question. To be or not to be.:lolno:

Well first, when you put the recipe in the soap calculator, is it superfatted or not. You have to think of the lye, the impurities of it taking up a certain percent, you have to think of the lye calculator, what impurities does it actually 'calculate out'. To be neutralized it must have exact right number of oil molecules to dance with the exact number of lye molecules so that every lye molecule gets used. If you superfatted, every single lye molecule was used.

My opinion is that it *should* be done or almost done if you've HP'ed it, test it by zap testing it or by PH. So touch your tongue to it, is it *nothing* or is it *uncomfortable*. When it is done it should be *nothing*.


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## MzMolly65

Feather said:


> Is it neutralized or not? That is the question. To be or not to be.:lolno:
> 
> My opinion is that it *should* be done or almost done if you've HP'ed it, test it by zap testing it or by PH. So touch your tongue to it, is it *nothing* or is it *uncomfortable*. When it is done it should be *nothing*.



What I say?  I say it was superfatted at 8% and didn't zap me .. so it was neutralized and must be safe to use .. but I knew that because my skin didn't peel off in the tub, LOL!  

My concern was the tingly feeling because I know OO doesn't tingle so then I was worried about the lye content.  It's beginner jitters and the fear of sending some to a friend and maybe hurting them.

It's so exciting to say I used a soap I made, LOL!


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## Feather

My best guess says you made soap too, beginner jitters or not! How cool is that? 

It's like this, there is a scene in "Cast Away" with Tom Hanks. He finally figures out how to make fire. He dances around the fire and he says "look what I have created I have made fire", then he sings "Come on baby light my fire". [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUDEjulbqzk[/ame]

There should be a movie with a soap clip with some actor, MAKING SOAP, "see what I have made, I have made soap", then the soap maker dances in the shower with their new soap and sings "A song about soap", but, see, there is no good song about soap, so we wallow in our suds without fame or fortune. Oh the life of a soapmaker.

PS. Congrats!:clap::clap::clap:


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## Lindy

Saponification in CP happens after it is in the mould and takes up to 3 days depending on whether you gel or not.  Gelled soap saponifies much quicker.  HP is saponified when you take it out and mould because you are using heat to force saponification.

From page 5 of Scientific Soapmaking by Kevin Dunn:



> Oil saponifies faster at high temperature than at low temperatures.   Because the saponfication reaction releases heat, it is often sufficient  to simply insulate a large mold.  The heat released warms the soap  enough that the reactions proceeds apace


Trace does not signify saponification although I will agree  that it has begun at that point.  It is also why with HP saponification  is complete at the end of the process.

Liquid soap is saponified immediately as well but unlike HP it is okay to use right away.  You put it away for a couple of weeks to allow it to clear.

Cream soap is saponified at completion when you put it to rest (rot) but takes several months to become mild enough to use.


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## Feather

There are two ways to speed a chemical reaction, mixing (hand mixer), and heating, both facilitate saponification.


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## Lindy

Now let's talk liquid soap.  Unless you SF you have to neutralize because the neutralizing is to take care of the excess lye which wouldn't exist with a SF.  However, 8% is way too high and a lot of liquid soap makers do a 1% SF to be safe and not have to add citric acid.

From what you are describing it sounds like you are only going to want the paste so no need to dilute, or if you do, then very little.  What an awesome use of liquid soap.  The glycerine method makes for easier dilution, it has nothing to do with requiring not requiring neutralizing as the laws of chemistry still apply.

You sequester your liquid soap to allow for settling and clearing not to complete saponification as that is complete when you finish cooking.


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## cmzaha

The Moroccan soap paste I have seen is much softer than the paste I get when I make my Castile pomace paste. In soap calc I superfat -5 and water at 80%. Since you are not diluting and need not worry about clarity I would certainly superfat, and wonder if it will contribute to making a softer paste. Upping the water may make the paste softer also. You also do not need to neutralize and to neutralize a paste after cook would be difficult. When I make soap paste I warm the oils and bing my batter to a very very thick trace while on low heat in a stainless steel pan. I then remove it from the heat cover with a towel and lid then let it sit until it gels and forms a paste. Then it goes in the oven at 170 degrees for a few hours to cook.  I am going to play with this and see if I can make a softer paste. I do know almond oil makes soft paste but that does not help you! Good luck to you with this. I can almost guarantee they are not using a glycerin method.


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## Lindy

What about adding extra water before gel?


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## MzMolly65

Well .. the soap made it's own decision.  I left it in the pot for a few more hours and then turned it off one more time.  This time it didn't harden, so I packaged it up and checked it the next morning.  It has started to gel.

I really have no idea why this batch acted so funny compared to the first batch but I guess I just have to let the soap tell me what's going on and trust the process even if sometimes it takes a lot longer.


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## cmzaha

I would really like to see an update and know if your soap softened similiar to the Moroccan soap paste. I think I am going to try a pomace oo with 90% water and see what happens. I usually make my paste with 80% in soap calc. MzMolly, it always fascinates me when I make two identical batches with same fo, water discount etc and one will behave and the other not. I always tell my hubby soap does what soap does and it is what it want to do. With your 8% superfat it should be a great soap paste


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## MzMolly65

cmzaha said:


> I would really like to see an update and know if your soap softened similiar to the Moroccan soap paste. I think I am going to try a pomace oo with 90% water and see what happens. I usually make my paste with 80% in soap calc. MzMolly, it always fascinates me when I make two identical batches with same fo, water discount etc and one will behave and the other not. I always tell my hubby soap does what soap does and it is what it want to do. With your 8% superfat it should be a great soap paste



It did soften and the first batch, made several weeks ago is gelling nicely so I suspect this one will too with a little time.  Right now it still looks opaque.

I'll take some pics when it starts to gel enough to see the difference.


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## engblom

Yooper said:


> I'm definitely no expert on liquid soap, but I have made a 100% castille soap and it came out very nice.
> 
> You don't want to superfat a liquid soap.  If you're worried about it being lye heavy, use at most 1-2% superfat.  Otherwise, it won't "work".  Generally, liquid soap is made with a slight excess of KOH, to ensure that all free fatty acids are neutralized.  You neutralize it (well, not to neutral but to a lower pH) later when you dilute.
> 
> I diluted the paste to make liquid soap, but you can store the paste if you want.  Catherine Failor's book would be a great resource for you, as it has all the hows and whys of liquid soap and gel making.



A bit cloudy soap is normally no problem, even many commercial soaps are a bit cloudy.

I am always superfatting my liquid soap and I have never had a problem so far. This is how I do:

I mix the oil(s) and lye (KOH) solution until I have a thick trace. Water reduction is needed for Castile, or you will burn up your mixer. Then I either insulate the whole sauce pan to get it to gel without external heat or I put the oven on low temperature and put the saucepan there to gel.

When the soap has been gelling properly I consider it as ready to use (as you would do with any bar soap). The advantage is that I do not need to wait for it to dry. For Castile I mix 1 third paste with third of water. From there I might do small adjustments.


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## MzMolly65

cmzaha said:


> I would really like to see an update and know if your soap softened similiar to the Moroccan soap paste.



Pics as promised .. and for comparison

the store bought version first (I don't know how they get it so dark .. someone suggested they use black olive oil but I checked the colour of that and it's the same colour as pomace so I don't think that's it .. but you never know)






my first batch after a few weeks of curing time





My second batch straight out of the pot





A day later you can see the gel beginning (the dark blob spots)


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## MzMolly65

Fwiw ... and this might be TMI for some ... my DH commented that he's been using the first batch in the shower to *cough* shave his man bits *cough*.  He says he loves it!  He says it's sticky enough it doesn't wash off during the shave and it's slippery enough for a really good shave .. nuff said ..


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## Lindy

Roflol


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## Hazel

MzMolly - 

I hope I don't offend you but your comment made me laugh. Thanks, I needed one.


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## MzMolly65

Hi all .. I've been away from the list for ages and hardly making any soap but once in a while I still churn out a batch or two.

I wanted to reopen this old thread and show you some photos of this paste soap and how it all worked out.

In 2013 I wanted to reverse engineer this soap based on the traditional ingredients found on the packages. It only had 3 ingredients on the package; olive oil, KOH and water .. but it wasn't a liquid soap, it was a thick paste so I came to this forum looking for all your advice. *I* wasn't using it as soap, I was using it for a plaster process called Tadelakt.

Well .. I fell down the soaping rabbit hole for quite a while and while I made a lot of different soaps the funny thing is I never did make any Tadelakt. (if you don't have a clue what I'm talking about please go back to the beginning of this thread and read it all the way through to catch up.)

Anyway .. fast forward to 2017. I am STILL using some of the original batch of paste. I still love it. Interestingly enough and the reason I popped back in .. I made a 2nd batch but low and behold it turned all kinds of weird moldy. I'm pretty sure I made the 2nd batch identical to the first. 

I stored the 2nd batch in 2 different types of containers .. 
1st container was round plastic with simple push on lid and it grew weird round gellish lumps of mold throughout the paste
2nd container was rectangular plastic with 4 lock - snap on lid and it grew hard crystal like coating on the top of the paste

when you look at the pictures, keep in mind this is the exact same batch of soap, stored in the same place, for the same amount of time. The only thing different between the two soaps is the container and the mold.

There is also a picture of the good soap from the very first, original batch that I am still using 4 years after making it.


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## cmzaha

It is funny that you popped back in after all this time. I had been wondering how your original paste turned out for you plastering projects. 

Wow, this one is really really ugly. Wonder if the original was cooked longer or if you used higher water. I have never had paste go moldy but have had diluted LS go moldy


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## DeeAnna

Hey, hi there, girlfriend -- been a long time, and I've missed ya! 

The whitish "moldy" things in the round container look like they're firmer than the amber/brown paste. A few are even sticking out above the brownish soap paste. I wonder if they're lumps of fat or fatty acids that have crystallized out or something. Since the rectangular paste has "...hard crystal like coating on the top of the paste..." that makes me wonder even more.


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## SaltedFig

DeeAnna said:


> Hey, hi there, girlfriend -- been a long time, and I've missed ya!
> 
> The whitish "moldy" things in the round container look like they're firmer than the amber/brown paste. A few are even sticking out above the brownish soap paste. I wonder if they're lumps of fat or fatty acids that have crystallized out or something. Since the rectangular paste has "...hard crystal like coating on the top of the paste..." that makes me wonder even more.



I thought the same, especially with it precipitating.

Possible tests? Maybe taking a piece and squishing it - fat/fatty acid would be maleable whereas a mould-based something would tend to be more brittle?


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## MzMolly65

You know what .. I just remembered.  I didn't make batch #2 identical to batch #1.  Batch #2 had actual black olive pulp in it because I was trying to match that really dark version I saw the plasterers using and someone from Morocco told me their soap had pulp included in it.

I am about to make a third batch, since batch number 2 went pear shaped and I'm down to the last dregs of batch #1.  I'm pretty sure I'll stick to straight oil this time and pass on the olive pulp.

Hopefully it will be as good as batch #1 and since it's being made for human use and not Tadelakt AND since I had mold in batch #2, I'll put preservative in this one.

Nice to see you as well DeeAnna and everyone else too, looks as though everyone's been busy making soap!


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## cmzaha

:bunny:


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## MzMolly65

Hi All,  back again!  It took forever to get around to it but tomorrow I'm finally going to make my third batch of Beldi.  Technically I can't call it Beldi anymore because I'm not following a traditional recipe and I'm not adding any olive meat.  I'm also going to add a preservative since I had that mold issue with the 2nd batch.

Also, since I'm not going to call it Beldi anymore I wondered about using the same recipe with a different oil.  I have tons of RBO and Pomace OO so I ran two recipes through soap calc.  The numbers are quite different in some areas and I am hoping someone could take a minute to have a look and give me some feedback on what it all means.

The OO version was fantastic in batch #1 and I really loved it.  Would the RBO version be an improvement or make a mess of it?

Thanks in advance for any opinions and advice. 

View attachment doc20180128083505.pdf


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## earlene

Well, I made 2 different 100% RBO soaps back in July of 2017 and just compared the two with a hand washing test.  One was with vinegar to make it harden up faster and one was without vinegar.  No added sugar to help with bubbles, just the RBO and some EDTA & ROE to prevent DOS.  Both made with 0% SF and CPOP to encourage gel because I was soaping on the cool side.

At six months, they are both about equally hard.  Pretty darn hard, I'd say.  There is a little difference tiny difference in the bubbling up of the soap.  The non-vinegar bar bubbles up more quickly than the bar made with vinegar.  Both keep and maintain the bubble and a nice lather throughout handwashing.  The lather builds and becomes more creamy as I wash.  

So if you are thinking on making a 100% RBO recipe, to replace a 100% OO recipe, I think you will be happy with it.

ETA:  Oops,  I made bar soap.  You are thinking of liquid soap.  My bad!  I have no idea how RBO works as a LS.


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## SaltedFig

I've got a similar clear, stable gel (that I like very much) with the oleic down to 58 (combination oil recipe).
The saturated to unsaturated ratio of my recipe closely matched the RBO, but the palmitic is more like that of olive oil. 
I don't use RBO and can only guess that the palmitic in the RBO might cause it to crystallize, but there's nothing like trying it to know!


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