# My first shaving soap is a success!



## songwind

This weekend I made my first shaving soap. It was a hot process soap, and used a recipe posted by a fellow forum poster at one of the wet shaving forums.

I did a small batch (8 oz). 52% stearic acid, 48% coconut oil, saponified with KOH. I added 1.5 tablespoons of glycerin after it was done cooking, along with 1/4 oz of essential oils: 2/3 lemon & bergamot, 1/3 rosemary.

The soap making went fine, with no surprises aside from the soap never becoming truly translucent like my olive oil soap did. It passed the zap test, though.

I used it to shave tonight, and it was lovely. Nice and slick, and there was no skin reaction to the EOs. My face feels very nice afterward.

The scent turned out too lemony, and the rosemary was lost underneath. Next time, more basenotes and less lemon.

Just after pouring:






After 24 hours to set:





Whipped up a great lather:





It was very stable. This is after sitting 15 minutes while I showered and brushed my teeth:


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## AngelMomma

That sure does look like great lather.  My KOH shipment arrived yesterday but have been swamped with SPRING chores.  I look forward to experimenting as well.  

So you used only KOH?


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## songwind

Yep. This recipe is an attempt to reverse engineer the shaving soap from Martin de Candre in France, which many wet shavers feel is the creme de la creme. Potassium only in that, so the guy that worked out this recipe only used KOH. It creates a very soft soap that's easy to load, but is still solid.


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## melstan775

that looks like some sexy shaving soap! Good on ya,and some questions : Did you mix it with anything to make it whip or just took a small amount and whipped it up?   and two, the EOs didn't burn your skin, or make it sting? Do you think it would have had you cut yourself?


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## songwind

melstan775 said:


> that looks like some sexy shaving soap! Good on ya,and some questions : Did you mix it with anything to make it whip or just took a small amount and whipped it up?



No, I just loaded the brush by rubbing it on top of the soap. My general method starts with a wet (but not dripping) brush. You load the brush until the "protolather" that's being created starts to look like a decent shaving lather. Then you finish up in the bowl or on your face. After loading about 15 seconds, I had to add a bit of extra water to get a nice wet slippery lather.

Here's what the brush looked like after loading:







> and two, the EOs didn't burn your skin, or make it sting? Do you think it would have had you cut yourself?


I doubt it. I did have a small "weeper" on my jaw line, and it didn't give me any grief. I have only found a handful of fragrance oils that bother my skin thus far, and no EOs. I have already used commercial shaving products with all the EOs I used this weekend, so I was pretty sure it was safe.

Some people definitely do have a problem with it, however. Eucalyptus, sandalwood, and peppermint (or just menthol) seem to cause it most often, based on chatting w/ other wet shavers.


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## Badger

Can this be done with CP or only HP?  It looks great and I would love to try it, but I have yet to try HP soaps.


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## songwind

I tried to do a cold process version of it, and it seized. I think it's too much stearic acid for CP. If someone with more experience wants to weigh in on that, I'd be grateful.


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## Badger

That is good to know.. I have not worked with stearic acid at all before, but I would really like to try and make a shaving soap.


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## songwind

I'm curious how tallow or palm w/ 10% or so added stearic would do. And maybe some castor oil or coconut for extra fluffiness. That's my next shaving-related soap goal.


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## judymoody

Looks great!

There are a number of shaving soap threads on the forum, some generated within the last few months.  Lindy is our shaving soap guru and has lots of good advice regarding fatty acid profiles and the like.

And yes, I don't believe it's possible to CP a recipe with 50% stearic acid.  That would be, um, exciting!


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## LadyM

That is absolutely gorgeous!!  Well done!


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## mel z

That is nice! Congratulations!


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## fatfacedcharlie

I made a batch of this yesterday, I was low on coconut oil, so I had to lower it a bit and up the stearic acid a bit, but this stuff is fantastic! I thought all that coconut oil would produce a lather that was too fluffy, but it's brilliant. Put a damp brush anywhere near it and it explodes with rich thick creamy lather. It's nice to shave with too, wasn't at all drying, which given all the coconut oil was surprising. Thanks for sharing Songwind!


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## songwind

fatfacedcharlie said:


> I made a batch of this yesterday, I was low on coconut oil, so I had to lower it a bit and up the stearic acid a bit, but this stuff is fantastic! I thought all that coconut oil would produce a lather that was too fluffy, but it's brilliant. Put a damp brush anywhere near it and it explodes with rich thick creamy lather. It's nice to shave with too, wasn't at all drying, which given all the coconut oil was surprising. Thanks for sharing Songwind!



I'm glad to hear it went well for you!


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## brandi

Can you share where you found the recipe?  Im looking for one for my husband.  Thanks!

When do you add the stearic acid?  I really want to make this.


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## Skatergirl46

Wow, that looks great!


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## bodhi

Faublous!  Did you sf or discount?


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## innerdiva73

WOW look at that lather!!!  WELL DONE!!!:clap:


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## songwind

brandi said:


> Can you share where you found the recipe?  Im looking for one for my husband.  Thanks!



This one came from another soaper trying to reverse engineer Martin de Candre over on the Badger and Blade forum



brandi said:


> When do you add the stearic acid?  I really want to make this.



I added it right at the beginning. I melted it along with the coconut oil.



bodhi said:


> Faublous!  Did you sf or discount?



This one had a 5% superfat.


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## Mark the Box Guy

judymoody said:


> Looks great!
> 
> There are a number of shaving soap threads on the forum, some generated within the last few months.  Lindy is our shaving soap guru and has lots of good advice regarding fatty acid profiles and the like.
> 
> And yes, I don't believe it's possible to CP a recipe with 50% stearic acid.  That would be, um, exciting!



What do you think would happen?


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## songwind

Mark the Box Guy said:


> What do you think would happen?



In my case, it pretty much instantly turned to a crumbly mess. If I'd been trying to bring together a pie crust, it would have been awesome. As a soap, not so much.


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## fatfacedcharlie

songwind said:


> In my case, it pretty much instantly turned to a crumbly mess. If I'd been trying to bring together a pie crust, it would have been awesome. As a soap, not so much.


 
Mine went almost the same way, anywhere the lye hit the oils it went opaque and gloopy almost instantly, but after a bit of stirring and squidging with the spatula it looked almost like apple sauce, but started to separate very quickly. I set about it with my stick blender in short bursts for about 10 minutes and it all came together quite nicely. I delayed putting it in the oven for 10 minutes just to see what would happen and it seemed to stay emulsified ok, like a really thick custard. It would take a more patient man than me to CP it though, I guess with all KOH it would take ages.


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## songwind

fatfacedcharlie said:


> Mine went almost the same way, anywhere the lye hit the oils it went opaque and gloopy almost instantly, but after a bit of stirring and squidging with the spatula it looked almost like apple sauce, but started to separate very quickly. I set about it with my stick blender in short bursts for about 10 minutes and it all came together quite nicely. I delayed putting it in the oven for 10 minutes just to see what would happen and it seemed to stay emulsified ok, like a really thick custard. It would take a more patient man than me to CP it though, I guess with all KOH it would take ages.



That's very interesting. Maybe I'll try it again now that I have a stick blender instead of the paint mixer.


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## chicklet

songwind - thanks so much for sharing your experience with this. I noticed on the B & B forum the original poster said he might cook his second batch longer than he did the first.  Did you find 90 minutes to be about right or did it take longer?  Was the crockpot on low or high?

Also, did you read on the other forum where the poster suggested making the soap unscented, shredding it, spritzing on essential oil, then packing the soap into PVC, then slicing into bars?  I just can't imagine this working without reheating the soap, but I do think I might try it.  I hope Lindy will see this and stop by to give her opinion about this.  If I am remembering correctly, Lindy (genius that she is!) does make her shaving soap unscented, grates it, then custom blends scents to customer's specifications.  I think, though, that she heats the mix before pouring it.  I guess I could PM her with my questions or start a new thread, which I will do if she doesn't stop by.     I'm not interested in custom blending anything for customers (what customers???), I just am interested in the possiblity of using a little bit less essential oil than I would have to use if I put it in the crockpot with the original batter.

Okay, I think I might be babbling so I'll stop now.  I'm going to try this shaving soap tonight!


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## songwind

chicklet said:


> songwind - thanks so much for sharing your experience with this. I noticed on the B & B forum the original poster said he might cook his second batch longer than he did the first.  Did you find 90 minutes to be about right or did it take longer?  Was the crockpot on low or high?



Yes, 90 minutes seemed to be fine. I used the high setting, and made sure to stir often enough that it didn't burn. It passed the zap test, then registered about a 9 on my litmus paper.



> Also, did you read on the other forum where the poster suggested making the soap unscented, shredding it, spritzing on essential oil, then packing the soap into PVC, then slicing into bars?  I just can't imagine this working without reheating the soap, but I do think I might try it.  I hope Lindy will see this and stop by to give her opinion about this.  If I am remembering correctly, Lindy (genius that she is!) does make her shaving soap unscented, grates it, then custom blends scents to customer's specifications.  I think, though, that she heats the mix before pouring it.  I guess I could PM her with my questions or start a new thread, which I will do if she doesn't stop by.     I'm not interested in custom blending anything for customers (what customers???), I just am interested in the possiblity of using a little bit less essential oil than I would have to use if I put it in the crockpot with the original batter.



Well, this stuff is extremely soft. "Shredding" isn't going to happen. Scrapping up with a spoon and plunking back in the crock pot, maybe. 

If you have to reheat the soap base, you may as well just add it during the original process as long as you wait for it to cool down appropriately. That's just IMO, though. Doing it so you can make a big batch of soap, then scent it as needed makes more sense to me.

I did see the post you mentioned, and I think that poster is basically an industrial process fan. He thinks you should be taking soap noodles, scenting them, and pressing them in molds. But that's just my take-away.


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## bodhi

Hi Songwind, do you know where the person you got the recipe from found out that the MdC was all coconut and stearic?  Im going to try it to recreate for someone who has used MdC and loved it, but i just looked on a site of theirs that was translated to english and on it they say they use olive and coconut.  Do you know if they have multiple base formulas and maybe I missed it?  I have no way of getting my hands on a pot to check the label myself.  http://www.savonnerie-martin-de-candre.com/index.php?id_product=632&controller=product&id_lang=1


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## brandi

Im making this tonight.  Thank you so much for sharing the recipe!


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## songwind

bodhi said:


> Hi Songwind, do you know where the person you got the recipe from found out that the MdC was all coconut and stearic?  Im going to try it to recreate for someone who has used MdC and loved it, but i just looked on a site of theirs that was translated to english and on it they say they use olive and coconut.  Do you know if they have multiple base formulas and maybe I missed it?  I have no way of getting my hands on a pot to check the label myself.  http://www.savonnerie-martin-de-candre.com/index.php?id_product=632&controller=product&id_lang=1



As far as I know, from the label.

In this thread the posted a picture. Edit: Found an even better one, from their unscented version. http://shavenook.com/thread-martin-de-candre-unscented-shaving-soap

Olive oil in general makes for mediocre shaving soap at best. Slippery, but no volume. I suspect whoever set up their website just cut and pasted standard promotional text onto the fougere page, because the traditional MdC shaving soap page doesn't say anything about olive oil.


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## bodhi

Thank you Songwind!  Now to figure out which one he uses...  This is a must try.


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## cbrooks3949

BEAUTIFUL LATHER!! Would you have the same skin drying issues with such a high % of CO that gets warned about in CP (or HP, using NaOH)?


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## Mark the Box Guy

songwind said:


> I did a small batch (8 oz). 52% stearic acid, 48% coconut oil, saponified with KOH. I added 1.5 tablespoons of glycerin after it was done cooking, along with 1/4 oz of essential oils: 2/3 lemon & bergamot, 1/3 rosemary.




I was just about to try this, but when I ran the numbers, soapcalc reported that despite using KOH, it had a hardness factor of 89! Also strange were the low bubble figure (32) and the high cleansing (also 32). 

Frankly, had I read this on soapcalc first, I wouldn't attempt it. It reads like a hard bar of skin-drying cleansing soap without any bubbles.

Would some of the veterans mind commenting on why there is such an apparent disparity between soapcalc and the finished product? Am I misinterpreting soapcalc?


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## DeeAnna

I haven't made shaving soap, so keep that in mind, but I have spent a fair amount of time figuring out "the numbers". 

The short-hand labels (cleansing, hardness, etc.) for "the numbers" are frankly misleading. The labels contain a grain of truth, but do not remotely tell the whole story. "The numbers" have their place in analyzing a recipe, but I hate their labels because they are often misleading, especially when you are evaluating a specialty soap such as shaving soap, salt bars, high-superfat coconut-oil bars, castile, etc. 

Think, for example, of all the newbie soapers who agonize over the fact that castile a zero "cleansing" number, and thus they conclude that castile won't clean!

The "hardness" number is the sum of the average percentages of the lauric, myristic, and stearic fatty acids in the oils. An 89 hardness number is saying about 89% of the fatty acids in the recipe are lauric, myristic, and stearic fatty acids. 

These are the fatty acids that are smaller and have a long, straight shape, so they tend to align themselves nicely when the soap solidifies (assuming it's a solid soap). This tidy geometric shape makes these soaps harder, especially initially. In industrial soap making, this is a critical quality -- one does not make money waiting for a soft goopy soap to harden sufficiently to unmold.

This issue is not as important for hand crafted soaps. A low "hardness" number may be a warning that your soap might be softer and more difficult  to unmold initially, but it doesn't say much about long-term hardness. Hand crafted soap generally hardens up as time goes on and water evaporates out of the soap, so the hardness number is not as critical as it seemed to me at first. Again, the classic example here is castile -- often very soft in the mold, but brick hard after months of cure.

The "bubble" and "cleansing" numbers are the exact same number with two different labels. The 32 number is telling you that about 32% of the fatty acids are lauric and myristic. These fatty acids are, again, two of the short straight-chain fatty acids. Sodium soaps made from these fatty acids dissolve the easiest in water. More of the lauric and myristic soap will dissolve off the bar when you use the soap to wash (or shave) and these soaps also combine more easily with fats, so these soaps tend to remove more oils from your skin. 

Sounds like a cut-and-dried issue, right? Except that curing the soap removes water and stabilizes the geometric structure of the soap, and less water inside the soap and a more regular structure means the soap is less soluble when you use it. Less solubility means less of these soaps get on your skin, and less soap on your skin makes the soap more gentle. 

And finally, this recipe gets a big fat zero for the conditioning number. That value is the sum of the oleic, ricinoleic, and linoleic fatty acids. So does this recipe rip one's skin right off? I'd guess you wet shavers can irritate and remove skin far better with your sharp blades than this soap will do. 

This soap is a special purpose soap, so the normal rules don't necessarily apply. It needs to make a thick lather to cushion the skin from the blade, and the "conditioning" fatty acids don't create that quality in a soap. I don't know if I would want to shower with shaving soap, but I certainly can appreciate why it has these unusual characteristics. 

For conditioning purposes, the other additives that might be included have to be considered -- the extra glycerine, the super fat, any sugars or milks, etc. "The numbers" are silent on these additives which add skin protective qualities. And I would think the cure period will make the soap gentler to the skin as well.


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## Mark the Box Guy

DeeAnna, if there was such a thing as "Post of the Year" then I would nominate your response. It cleared up a great deal of confusion and changed my evaluations of many of the recipes I've found and considered in my short soaping career. Thank you. :clap::clap:


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## bodhi

Good thing DeeAnna posted before I did.  I was only going to say, 'because sometimes the calcs lie.'


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## songwind

cbrooks3949 said:


> BEAUTIFUL LATHER!! Would you have the same skin drying issues with such a high % of CO that gets warned about in CP (or HP, using NaOH)?



It would probably be a concern if I hadn't added so much glycerin. But as it stands, I'm pretty pleased.


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## Mark the Box Guy

I've made a batch and it's in the bowls and sitting on a shelf, but I must say that I deviated a bit from the various recommendations and am optimistic, because it looks exactly like my favourite shave creams. This should turn out well.

Many of the posts, on this forum and others, have said that cold process is not an option, and that a full hot process is the only way to go. But I seem to be having pretty good luck at my hot process, which in actuality is more of warm process (or a cold process with a hot head start). I use my usual crockpot to melt the oils and mix everything up to trace before moulding (or glopping) my soap. I turn off the crockpot as I approach trace, and allow the retained heat to help the saponification process along its merry way. And I only have one pot to clean up, which makes SHMBO very happy

In this case, the lye water and hot oils began tracing quickly, and without the time to stick blend (it was too thick for the stick anyway), I poured my glycerin and kept stirring. I didn't allow it gel. Soon it soon looked just like my Taylor of Bond St cream and was clearly at trace, so I made a quick decision glop the cream/soap into bowls (two ceramic ramekins and two short glass bowls) and put them on the shelf. Take a look; that's what proper shave cream looks like. This should be perfect in a few weeks.


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## DeeAnna

And where was your good friend Phil in all of this drama and excitement???


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## Mark the Box Guy

DeeAnna said:


> And where was your good friend Phil in all of this drama and excitement???



Berlin Phil is hairy and waiting.


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## Skatergirl46

Looking forward to hearing about how you like this one. 

I agree about DeaAnna's post. I'm one of those people who has to know the why and the how of things, so I appreciate the scientific analysis of recipes and shared experiences.


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## songwind

Mark, it looks good. I'll be very interested to know how it turns out.


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## Mark the Box Guy

I did a short lather test with a silvertip brush, and found that it wanted a lot of water. I almost had to fully load the brush twice before the lather got as big as it could in my scuttle. Glycerin is hydrophillic, isn't it? Perhaps there was too much. It still has potential though! The lather was terrific, afterall.


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## Sapwn

Hi there! I am a wet shaver as well and in particular straight razor shaver.

I made many-many experiments the last month to achieve a high quality shaving soap.

Just look at these bars. They are all shaving soaps testing different recipes.









　

Finally I concluded to a couple of recipes that are very similar to yours. Note I that I tested more than 10 different recipes and rejected them after concluding to my finals. 

I didn’t have in mind Martin’s soap when experimenting the recipes but the Italian cream/soaps that I really like. I am sure you know what I mean. Especially Valobra which is my favorite!

My final recipes contain stearic acid ranging from 50 to 60%, coconut oil as the second oil, and some kind of butter, usually unrefined shea butter, or mango butter.

I hold superfat rate at very low, <3% but I add some lanolin to trace because I love the feeling of Mitchell’s soap. I don't add any glyceryn at all. 
I also use KOH from 90 to 100% and I use almond FO like most Italian shaving soap makers do.

The reason I use 100% KOH is that steric acid is very high in my recipes and I thing that stearic acid needs KOH and not NaOH. It is very difficult to handle with NaOH. Moreover, I prefer soft soaps for shaving.

If the final result is too soft for you, you can add some Sodium Lactate in your oils before adding the lye. This will harden the final soap even if you use 100% KOH.


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## jean1C

I realize this post is a few weeks old, but I tried the recipe from badger and blade yesterday. I scented with some clover and aloe FO.  All I can say is WOW! This is my third attempt at shaving soap, first time using a crock pot.(good thing I am cleaning the basement and found an old one...cause it is calling for a second batch). 
I used the same recipe, then put it in a PVC pipe mold in the fridge overnight. In the morning, I preheated my oven to 200, shut it off and put the soap in there for 20 minutes, so it would be easier to unmold. 
20 minutes was probably too much, as it was a little sticky. I put it back in the fridge for a few hours so I could slice it. SUCCESS!!! DH used it this evening and he is raving about it. The lather/slip is suppose to be excellent. I think I am going to try it for my legs. DH says it beats ANYTHING he has ever tried before. (I have to add that he is hypercritical, not on purpose, just part of his narcisstic personality...LOL). 
I gave a sample to my daughter's boyfriend.  He is in the military, so a close shave is important. I am waiting for the results. 
YEA!!! Thank you all for sharing!


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## CaraCara

Agreed! I used Songwind's recipe and it worked like a charm.


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## jean1C

Now...here's a thought...what if you were to use goat milk in place of the water? Would it scorch in the crock pot? I don't know if you could make this recipe any better...but?


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## heartsong

thank you so much for sharing!  

hubby is a straight razor shaver, too...scares me to death to watch him!  but at 60+ he still has both ears & his nose...once in a while I see him with toilet paper stuck to his face, but not often...I've used 40% tallow, 32% lard, 8% coconut, 10% castor & 10% steric acid doing regular cold process, but yours looks soooo much better...time to order some koh & dust off the old crockpot!


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## Skatergirl46

Where do you get the KOH and is there more than one type? I want to make this recipe but I have never used KOH.


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## heartsong

I buy all my lye here...depending how much you buy they have free shipping and they are uber-fast! http://www.essentialdepot.com/


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## Mark the Box Guy

It's been a couple of weeks, and I've tried the soap and it's terrific! It made a nice thick long-lasting lather, and now I have four tubs to either use or give away. There must be a dozen or more shaving creams or soaps in the cupboard, so yes, they will become gifts, like the seemingly endless soap bars stacking up. 

So I'd like to report, with finality, that I approve this recipe


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## DeeAnna

Okay, Songwind, FatFacedCharlie, Chicklet, and Mark the Box Guy ... I did it. I made Songwind's shaving soap recipe yesterday and it turned out fine. I tried a slightly different approach based on the old soap making books I've been reading and also from sheer necessity. 

The necessity part -- I used a double boiler (bain marie) for the soap because I didn't have a small enough crockpot to handle a small recipe (200 grams of oils in total). I kept the water in the boiler about 180 deg F (80 deg C). Well, actually I used two double boilers because I melted the stearic acid separately from the coconut oil. The stearic had to be heated up a bit higher, so I started at 180 and upped the temp as needed just until the stearic liquified. 

The old books -- I did a two stage saponification. The old boys used to do this to ensure slower reacting ingredients were saponified fully, then they added the faster reacting components. I knew from my reading and from Songwind that the stearic acid will react quickly with the KOH, so I thought this method might let me get the soap started in a more civil kind of way. I melted the coconut oil in my soap making double boiler, added the KOH solution, and stick blended and hand mixed the batter to a pudding-like consistency. It took only 5 minutes. I then added the melted stearic and stirred the batter into a waxy mashed potato consistency. That took, well, um, basically no time at all. 

I covered the soap pot, let the soap cook for about 20 minutes, and then tested for zap. It didn't, so I figured I was done. I added the glycerin and stirred well, let the soap cool for 15 minutes, and added my essential oils. Based on the scent description for the Martin de Candre product, I used 4 g lavender, 2.5 g rosemary, and 0.5 g wild mint (mentha arvensis, a softer, sweeter variation on peppermint). 

After the glycerine and EOs were mixed in, I scraped the sticky warm soap onto parchment paper and formed a long roll about 1 1/2 - 2 inches in diameter. (Exactly like refrigerator cookies, if you are familiar with that type of cookie). I cut the roll into disks about 1" to 1 1/4" high tonight. The soap today is pliable like clay or soft wax -- not at all sticky or goopy. The scent is really nice -- the tiny dab of mint sweetens the lavender and rosemary just enough so the overall fragrance is spicy, not sharp or harsh.

I doubt I'm going to lather up my legs and underarms with a badger brush -- sorry, guys! But even the light lather that develops from rubbing the soap directly on (stubbly) skin is dense, lubricating, and creamy. And the shave is much closer -- my legs feel like silk. Wow. 

And the soap is just a day old. Wow. 

Okay ... so I had no idea what I have been missing all these years by not using a proper shave soap ... and I ain't even a guy. I can't wait to see what DH and DS and my other male friends have to say when I share this soap with them. Wow. 

Did I say wow? 

Only issue is the soap makes the shower floor slick. But I can live with that.


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## heartsong

good for you!  i'm so envious, but now you have me inspired...the Koh is on it's way and I've found a 1 quart mini crockpot at walmart!


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## DeeAnna

It is easier than it sounds, Heartsong. Give it a try....


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## Mark the Box Guy

DeeAnna: Two-stage saponification? That's strong soap Kung Fu. What kind of old boys are you spending time with?

You do realize that you're close to a full-blown shaving soap addiction, don't you? Very close. A 9-iron, perhaps. There's no turning back now. You're into bamboo flyrods, fountain pens, and old Land Rover territory here. My friend Jessica went down this ugly path and though her boyfriend insists that she "smells like a dude," she's a lather freak with a permanent twitching jones for the high-suds soft Italian shave soap. The notion that you've started at the high-end with the de Candre just makes it worse: you're a junkie and can't go back. Soon you'll be selling cheap soap behind the pool hall to fund your brush problem. "C'mon man, I need a few bucks for a Simpson Chubby." Be prepared for the spiral.


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## bodhi

Mark the Box Guy said:


> DeeAnna: Two-stage saponification? That's strong soap Kung Fu. What kind of old boys are you spending time with?
> 
> You do realize that you're close to a full-blown shaving soap addiction, don't you? Very close. A 9-iron, perhaps. There's no turning back now. You're into bamboo flyrods, fountain pens, and old Land Rover territory here. My friend Jessica went down this ugly path and though her boyfriend insists that she "smells like a dude," she's a lather freak with a permanent twitching jones for the high-suds soft Italian shave soap. The notion that you've started at the high-end with the de Candre just makes it worse: you're a junkie and can't go back. Soon you'll be selling cheap soap behind the pool hall to fund your brush problem. "C'mon man, I need a few bucks for a Simpson Chubby." Be prepared for the spiral.



Love this!  Ok, where is your book already?  Huh?  C'mon man I need it to go with my bamboo flyrods and fountain pens!  seriously.  

DeeAnna, If i wasnt convinced previously... Your comments were the final nail in the coffin.   I am a *this* shaving soap addict and -i have my own non shaving soap that i adore for shaving, AND- i haven't even made this one yet!


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## DeeAnna

"...You do realize that you're close to a full-blown shaving soap addiction, don't you? ... that you've started at the high-end with the de Candre just makes it worse..."

Why start at the bottom and work one's way up when starting at the top is so easy? Marlene Dietrich, tux, and top hat ... here I come!

Seriously, though, I look forward to tinkering more with this type of soap. I wanted to try Songwind's shaving soap since you experienced shavers seem to really like it -- I wanted to see what all the fuss is about. 

But I see you fellows tweaking recipes and trying different fats and different proportions of KOH and NaOH solutions, so I know there's room for experimentation even at the top. It should be fun, now that I have a bit of a clue.

"...bamboo flyrods, fountain pens, and old Land Rover territory..."

And don't forget the classic wooden canoe.  http://www.wcha.org/

Many thanks, Mark, for giving me a lovely laugh to start my morning....


----------



## Paintguru

Once molded and cut, does this recipe produce a bar that holds together reasonably well?  I'm wondering if it would be better to put it into individual containers.  Of course then there is NO air circulation around it, so that may cause it to go bad without some added preservatives.  Hmmmmm.....


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## DeeAnna

It's a soft soap, yes, but I don't think it needs a preservative, especially if you let it dry properly between uses. It's not like a liquid or true cream soap that has water added after the cook. The only reason why this soap is soft is that we're using KOH not NaOH. If we had been using NaOH, it would make a firm bar soap. 

My batch is going on 4 weeks old now, and it has firmed up some but is still pliable like a soft wax. The soap does not crack or crumble. I use it as-is in the shower, but you could easily press it into a shaving mug or jar for use with a shaving brush.


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## Mark the Box Guy

Dee... are you still enjoying the shaves? And while I still am not clear on who exactly "DH" and "DS" refer to, and can only assume it's Dear Husband and Dear Someone Else, do they have an opinion?


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## DeeAnna

Hi, Mark -- You are right: DH = dear husband. DS = dear son. 

Yes, I do very much like the soap. DH has continued to use it to shave with as well -- he has a half dozen other bars of soap to lather up with, but he is consistently grabbing the shaving soap when he reaches for his razor. (I am monitoring his shaving activities with a stealthy hawk's eye -- I figure if I pry, he will get self conscious and use the shaving soap just to please me, but if I just watch, I can gather the unbiased info I want.)

I have given samples to several friends, but I have yet to get a sample to my stepson (aka DS) who lives a few hours away. I have one bar earmarked just for him. Hubby eagerly begged a couple of samples to give to the gals who work in his office. After all that sharing with others, I have almost nothing left of my first batch.

Such a sad state of affairs -- I get to make more soap! 

I have been reading about shaving soaps off an on. It seems as if there are several broad groups, only a few of which that I've read about. The first, obviously, are the coconut oil based soaps like the MdC (probably the least common type?) You and FFC talked about soap that have added lanolin such as Mitchells Wool Fat (kind of an old-school recipe?). Another type I'm picking up on are the soaps that have tallow as the main ingredient (I'm thinking of Williams Mug Soap). Any other types that you know of?

I can see each type has its ardent fans and detractors -- the reports and ensuing debates are amusing to read. I think it would be fun to develop two distinct types of shaving soaps. The MdC type is obviously one I am going to play with more. What would you say is another generally popular type that would be worth learning about and developing?


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## Mark the Box Guy

DeeAnna said:


> Such a sad state of affairs -- I get to make more soap!
> 
> I have been reading about shaving soaps off an on. It seems as if there are several broad groups, only a few of which that I've read about. The first, obviously, are the coconut oil based soaps like the MdC (probably the least common type?) You and FFC talked about soap that have added lanolin such as Mitchells Wool Fat (kind of an old-school recipe?). Another type I'm picking up on are the soaps that have tallow as the main ingredient (I'm thinking of Williams Mug Soap). Any other types that you know of?
> 
> I can see each type has its ardent fans and detractors -- the reports and ensuing debates are amusing to read. I think it would be fun to develop two distinct types of shaving soaps. The MdC type is obviously one I am going to play with more. What would you say is another generally popular type that would be worth learning about and developing?




Well well well... you are getting hooked, aren't you. That's a good thing. Shaving soap is fun. Most of us use several brands and types, and switch between them every few days or so. They generally fall into two types, and a few sub-types. 

First: there are creams, which have the consistency of toothpaste and are often smeared on your face before attacked vigorously with a brush. This technique is called face-lathering, and we've all either done it or do it regularly. Two popular brands that are typically in every shave den are Proraso Green (which is mentholated and great in the summer,) and Taylor of Bond Street Sandalwood (which is mostly sold in a tub.) No one has ever regretting owning either. My favourite cream is this one; it's for a "Viking and a Gentleman" and worth the nutty price. Miklagard

Then we have the soaps. Soaps generally fall into three types, the English hard puck, the Italian soft soap, and the stick. I'll tell you of the stick first, but only because it's unlikely that you would would make this, and it's a bit of niche product. The stick is a hard soap, like an English puck, but is shaped like a solid deodorant, and rubbed on your face before being face-lathered. I love the Palmolive, hate the Valobra, and am not disposed to try the Arko because some say that it smells like a urinal cake. Enough said, ok?

The Italian soaps are generally soft like clay or PlayDo, and make crazy lather. Though they sometimes are sold in a tub, the ones I like are wrapped in plastic and then squeezed into a tub of my own choosing. The de Candre soap in this thread is mostly like this. Though I like the Valobra and would try the Cella, my favourite is the Vitos Extra-Super Almond, because there's no reason to doubt a soap that declares itself "Extra-Super," and they sell it in huge kilo blocks for sharing.

The English hard pucks are likely the ones you'll try first, mostly because they are similar to the CP soaps you already make. And please, don't try and emulate the Williams soap; I wouldn't shave my neighbour's cat with that trash. All the big English brands, like Taylor of Bond St, DR Harris, and Trufitt & Hill make pucks, and though I would be vilified and banished to walk the desert alone for eternity if I wrote this on a shaving site, I'm comfortable telling you that these are mostly the same. Though tallow soaps are often thought to make the best pucks, my sense is that this is mostly myth and bravado, and likely the result of blindly believing that the older soaps are the best. I enjoy taking that view and love Mitchell's Wool Fat, which is a very old Great British recipe that likely has only Tallow and Lanolin in it. My guess is that a Lard / Coconut Butter would behave identically, but I wouldn't shave my balls with it because it only wants to be elegantly peculiar like The Fat and instead would only be a weak and worthless clone. 

Look up the shaving soap and lathering videos on YouTube for hours of gripping entertainment. And don't forget to watch the uberlather or scuttle videos either. Missing them would somehow be too wrong to consider.

I hope this helps.


----------



## DeeAnna

Hmmm, yeah, I'm getting hooked. I shaved again tonight with just a light lather made by a few casual swipes of the shaving soap on pits and legs. I'm again blown away by the closeness of the shave and the silky smoothness of my skin. Wow. Yep, pretty neat stuff there.

Okay, so let's look at your Fitjar shaving cream. Woman's product appears to be the same as the men's except for a "girly" fragrance. Ingredients from their website:

Potassium stearate
Potassium cocoate
Glycerine
Olea europea
Essential oils 

Stearic acid and coconut oil saponified with KOH. The glycerine in the list could be just glycerin produced by the saponification process or it could also be added by the maker. If the glycerine is only from saponification, it will come just from the coconut oil, since stearic acid is not a triglyceride. Easy to calculate.

Olive oil superfat -- it does not appear to be saponfied or it would be potassium oleate. It might make the basic soap fluid enough to put it into the cream territory, perhaps with a bit of extra water. Hmmmmm. So daring Viking gentlemen like olive oil, hey????

Other than the olive oil, it sounds a lot like the MdC recipe to me, but I'm not a shaver in the sense that you are. In your experience, can you say how is the feel of the Fitjar different than MdC, if I may ask?

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint about Williams soap. Not having any "dog in this fight", I'll respect your reasoned and balanced opinion. 

It's getting late, so I must leave your message partly digested, but this is a good start.


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## bridger

I gave this a try. I posted a new thread, but I should have posted it here. so here's the link: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=37104

I haven't shaved with it yet. I'll post a report when I do. probably this weekend.


I also am curious about castor oil as a shave soap. I don't know enough to understand the soapcalc numbers yet. I made a test batch of 100% castor with sodium hydroxide. I'll report on that also. if anyone here has played with stuff in this direction I'd like to hear about it....


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## dagmar88

http://www.zensoaps.com/singleoil.htm


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## Mark the Box Guy

DeeAnna said:


> Okay, so let's look at your Fitjar shaving cream. Woman's product appears to be the same as the men's except for a "girly" fragrance. Ingredients from their website:
> 
> Potassium stearate
> Potassium cocoate
> Glycerine
> Olea europea
> Essential oils
> 
> Stearic acid and coconut oil saponified with KOH. The glycerine in the list could be just glycerin produced by the saponification process or it could also be added by the maker. If the glycerine is only from saponification, it will come just from the coconut oil, since stearic acid is not a triglyceride. Easy to calculate.
> 
> Olive oil superfat -- it does not appear to be saponfied or it would be potassium oleate. It might make the basic soap fluid enough to put it into the cream territory, perhaps with a bit of extra water. Hmmmmm. So daring Viking gentlemen like olive oil, hey????
> 
> Other than the olive oil, it sounds a lot like the MdC recipe to me, but I'm not a shaver in the sense that you are. In your experience, can you say how is the feel of the Fitjar different than MdC, if I may ask?



I picked up a tub of the woman's Fitjar for SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed) and though she hasn't tried it in the two years that she's had it (long story), I must confess that I gave it a try yesterday, and found it to be **** fine soap. Good strong lather. It lasts a good long time and is very smooth. I could do without the scent, but I can recommend the recipe without hesitation. You would do well to try and make it.

As for the difference between the Viking soap and the MdC: I prefer my MdC, the stuff we made in this thread. It's still great! But is there a difference? Not really. There are too many variables to making lather to run a true comparison. Frankly, using this soap comes down to technique. By the time you've you matched the brush, the water hardness, the amount of soap on the brush, and a ton of other things, all you can hope for is getting the best out of the soap. That's probably why there are such diverse opinions on the Wool Fat and the Williams; they are each finicky old recipes that respond to details in technique. I'm a pretty good latherer, but it took me a while before I consistently got good lather from the The Fat. The creamy soaps like the Fitjar and the MdC are very forgiving, and make good lather for everyone. But once you get the hang of the oddball soaps, they really perform well.

I heard that Berlin Phil wants a tub of the stuff we made.


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## MKRainville

looks so nice!  good job


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## bridger

so I'm happy to report that 55% stearic, 45% coconut via KOH lathers and shaves very nicely thankyouverymuch. after only a couple of days sitting it was very water hungry - so much so that it pulled hairs out of my badger brush. 






bridger said:


> I gave this a try. I posted a new thread, but I should have posted it here. so here's the link: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=37104
> 
> I haven't shaved with it yet. I'll post a report when I do. probably this weekend.
> 
> 
> I also am curious about castor oil as a shave soap. I don't know enough to understand the soapcalc numbers yet. I made a test batch of 100% castor with sodium hydroxide. I'll report on that also. if anyone here has played with stuff in this direction I'd like to hear about it....


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## Mark the Box Guy

bridger said:


> so I'm happy to report that 55% stearic, 45% coconut via KOH lathers and shaves very nicely thankyouverymuch. after only a couple of days sitting it was very water hungry - so much so that it pulled hairs out of my badger brush.



I agree... It was so water hungry after the first few days that I thought I had messed it up. I really didn't touch it for a couple of weeks, and now, a month later, it lathers itself when I walk by it and wink.


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## DeeAnna

"...The creamy soaps like the Fitjar and the MdC are very forgiving, and make good lather for everyone. But once you get the hang of the oddball soaps, they really perform well...."

Many thanks for the observations, Mark, and I will ponder on them. As I said before, I would like to try a second type of shaving soap. From your words, it sounds as if I just need to choose a likely direction and go for it.

"...I heard that Berlin Phil wants a tub of the stuff we made...."

I was finally able to give samples to my stepson and his friend. Feedback from those two young men, my other "normal" razor testers, and one straight blade tester have all been positive. The masses are clamoring for more. I have none to give them, and I'm getting ready to make another batch soon. If you can't accommodate poor Phil, let me know!


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## bridger

I shaved with the stearic / coconut soap this weekend. I made some test  lather and left it while I showered. I didn't time it, but I didn't  hurry either, and when I got out it looked the same as when I started.  it has staying power. it also shaves just fine, plenty of glide and  cushion. this first test batch has no scent added and I think I will  want something if the smell of the unaged soap is going to remain. I'm  guessing that the soapy smell will fade with time and I'll probably make  scented and unscented batches. in any case, 55% stearic / 45% coconut /  KOH makes an excellent shave soap. my guess is that there is a bit of a  range in the percentages that gives this sort of performance. for  someone doing production dialing in the numbers would be important. I'm  making it for myself and a few friends, not for sale. it would take me a  long time to make meaningful adjustments to the formula, so any changes  from here will happen slowly. I will make some small test batches with  other oils but I'm not going to put a lot of effort into that direction  unless I get really stellar improvements, which seems unlikely- this  stuff as is is the best shave soap I have used to date.


I played a bit with the castor oil soap. it makes a pretty generous  amount of lather that has not really enough body and fades away after a  few minutes. I worked it enough to get what looked like a shaveable  lather and let sit with the other. by the time I got out of the shower  it was all but gone. in the shower it performed well as a body bar. it  had a slightly unpleasant feel- a little too slick- leaving me to wonder  whether it would rinse off. it did rinse well, so I tried it on my  hair, where it worked like a very nice shampoo. I see potential in that  direction. the only downside is that it did slightly sting in my eyes.


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## DeeAnna

BTW, I wonder where Songwind has got to? He started a real movement, so it seems!


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## dimitris

I also did this recipe but CP... I thought I had a bad result, but it looks, lathers and feels excellent!
Although next time I will try HP for this.


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## Mark the Box Guy

dimitris said:


> I also did this recipe but CP... I thought I had a bad result, but it looks, lathers and feels excellent!
> Although next time I will try HP for this.



Really? My understanding was that cold-processing that much stearic acid would explode like a science fair volcano!


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## Mark the Box Guy

bridger said:


> I made some test  lather and left it while I showered. I didn't time it, but I didn't  hurry either, and when I got out it looked the same as when I started.  it has staying power.



I had the same experience. I made lather in a scuttle and it was still thick and usable after my shower. This is a **** fine recipe.




bridger said:


> my guess is that there is a bit of a  range in the percentages that gives this sort of performance.



I agree, but frankly, I can't see how I would want to improve. I don't have a single complaint about the soap.




bridger said:


> this  stuff as is is the best shave soap I have used to date.



True that. (that's what the kids say: "true that." I'm pretty sure that it signifies a hearty agreement.)


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## dimitris

It didn't explode, but traced (or seized) almost immediately.


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## bridger

dimitris said:


> It didn't explode, but traced (or seized) almost immediately.




yeah, it's hard to make this recipe look pretty. it's not melt and pour- more like scoop and pack- and the surfaces of mine were nowhere near smooth. in spite of the fast saponification and fast PH balancing in the crock pot I think this soap will benefit from some aging. I'm experimenting with molds made from plastic plumbing pipe right now to see if I can make it into pucks for use in a mug or bowl. it's pretty soft still after a few days and I don't really expect it to harden up like bar soap so the molding idea may not pan out at all.


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## Mark the Box Guy

DeeAnna said:


> Many thanks for the observations, Mark, and I will ponder on them. As I said before, I would like to try a second type of shaving soap. From your words, it sounds as if I just need to choose a likely direction and go for it.



Now that I'm thinking about it, you may want to reconsider making a stick. As you've "described" it, you shave in the shower, without a brush, and probably (this is getting weird now) make lather with your hand or washcloth. A stick is probably perfect for you. A stick is simply a hard puck that's shaped like a solid deodorant. Because you don't use a brush, it would have to lather as easily as a soft soap or cream, but be solid like a puck. That's quite a functional specification. I don't shave in the shower (straight razors and slippery floors might seriously impact my social life if the bad thing happened,) so I can't say with certainty whether a stick and a washcloth would make good lather, but my guess is that it would.


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## DeeAnna

"...experimenting with molds made from plastic plumbing pipe..."

I am skeptical that you can mold Songwind's CO/KOH recipe into a PVC pipe and remotely have any chance of getting it out of the mold without digging it out. It stays more like taffy than a hard soap. Even after over a month of curing it would not be moldable as CP soap is molded. But, hey, that's just my opinion and YMMV. I'll be curious to see how it works for you.

"...cold-processing that much stearic acid would explode like a science fair volcano..."

Well, in my brief experience, it's more that the stearic causes "seizing", meaning the soap becomes very firm very fast. If you keep cooking a seized soap, it will continue to saponify and may soften up with time. Or at least become somewhat more workable, so you can get all the ingredients stirred up properly. 

As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, I did a 2 stage hot-process saponification and it worked well. I used a 180 deg F (80 C) double boiler. Melt the the coconut oil in the double boiler. Add the KOH solution to the coconut oil and bring to a very thick trace. You can stick blend or hand blend -- either one would work fine. It's going to act exactly like a "normal" cold process recipe at this point, so you can get the mixture well blended. 

At thick trace, switch to a spatula or spoon, add the melted stearic, and stir to a waxy, sticky mashed potato consistency. Keep warm in the double boiler for about 20 minutes, stir the "mashed taters" again, and check for zap. If zap, allow the mix to cook for another 20 minutes or so and retest. For the record, mine tested zap-free at 20 minutes.

Note: I suspect you could do this as a CP soap using much the same method -- melt the CO, combine it with the KOH solution, bring the KOH and CO to heavy trace, add the stearic, and stir like crazy. Pack the soap into a suitable container and let it finish saponifying on its own. The HP method I used wasn't a big deal though, and it was fun to do -- it certainly didn't take long. 

I can't see how to make this recipe and end up with a well mannered CP soap batter that pours tidily into a mold -- you are going to get a sticky mess either way whether you do CP or HP. With HP, the sticky mess will be at a safe pH when you scrape it out of the soap pot. With CP, the sticky mess is going to be at a high pH when you scrape it out of the pot. I personally think it's nicer to deal with the messy-but-safe-pH stuff, so I can see why folks do soaps like this using a HP method.

After my soap tested zap free, I scraped the soap onto parchment paper and rolled the sticky soap into a rough log shape. I let it set for about a day, then unwrapped it, gently formed it into a tidier log, let it dry for a few days longer. When merely soft and pliable, rather than unreasonably sticky, I cut it into suitable chunks -- they looked a lot like marshmallows. I let the chunks dry longer until the soap was waxy and only slightly pliable.

"...and probably (this is getting weird now) make lather with your hand or washcloth..."

Yep. A little weird. But, hey, I think shaving soap and weirdness are inextricably connected.

As far as going to a slightly firmer stick-type soap for in-shower shaving ... it's a good idea, Mark -- thank you!. A soft puck of soap would work great in a mug with a shaving brush, but it is awkward to handle and store in the shower. Couple of ideas --

What about subbing out some of the KOH for NaOH to see if that will firm up the soap enough for in-shower use, while still preserving the lovely qualities of this recipe. Maybe 20% NaOH? 

Or possibly use the 100% KOH recipe, but package it as you suggested in a twist-up or push-up container like a smaller version of a deodorant container. When cured, this soap is still pliable, but not really sticky, so the recipe might work fine as-is in this type of container. I think I have a suitable container to experiment with -- will let you know....


----------



## bridger

a full on tube mold is going to need a liner. some kind of heavy duty waxed paper seems like the right kind of thing.


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## Mark the Box Guy

bridger said:


> a full on tube mold is going to need a liner. some kind of heavy duty waxed paper seems like the right kind of thing.



It shouldn't need a liner or a case. None of the sticks I use anything other than a very short base. The Palmolive stick, for example, has a short (<1/4 inch) base and two inches of tube-shaped soap above it.


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## bridger

Mark the Box Guy said:


> It shouldn't need a liner or a case. None of the sticks I use anything other than a very short base. The Palmolive stick, for example, has a short (<1/4 inch) base and two inches of tube-shaped soap above it.



sorry if I wasn't clear. needing a liner was referring to using plumbing pipe as a mold, not the pushup stick.


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## dimitris

Yes, you need a liner or you can line the mold with mineral oil which doesn't saponify.
I use a silicone baking mat which I find excellent and very convenient.


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## jean1C

I made this soap and put it in a PVC pipe. I did not line the pipe. The next day, I turned the oven on "warm" for a few minutes, then turned it off. I put the pipe (on a cookie sheet) in the oven for about 15 minutes. I used a can that I wrapped in a plastic bag to push on one of the ends to release it. Put it in the fridge for a few hours, then cut it in pucks, and put it on my drying rack. My husband raves about it.


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## DeeAnna

Good for you, Jean! Glad to see it works -- I confess I was skeptical....


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## bridger

next dumb question for all you chem majors/ shave soap geeks/ cosmetologists:

I watched a youtube vid about making coffee soap. they added pure caffeine  to it, with the explanation that as a vasodilator it did stuff to the  skin that was beneficial. could be, but that effect, whatever it is...  would that be helpful in a shave soap?


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## DeeAnna

I don't have the info, but I recall someone reporting that caffeine is not absorbed in any significant amount through the skin, so you're far better off to get your caffeine fix in other ways. 

Vasodilator = opens up the blood vessels. If that is the goal, why not drink a cuppa joe instead and wash your face in hot water and dry with a brisk rub of a towel? YMMV!


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## bridger

here's the video:[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxa9029gkas[/ame]
the  creator of this video seems unclear on the actual effects produced. I  am completely unclear on them. but if caffeine applied to the skin  changes the surface somehow, it probably will change the behavior of  soap/razor/skin in a way that might be noticeable and might be  beneficial (or not). there might be a very good reason that there are no caffeinated shave soaps on the market. I just don't know.

the  point being that caffeine is used in a number of cosmetics products to  affect the surface of the skin. the topical use is what is interesting  here- no way I am going to be interested i n giving up my morning  cuppa...


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## bridger

vasodilator, vasoconstrictor, skin absorbable, skin nonabsorbable, I see all of these claims made. what's actually going on?


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## DeeAnna

"...the point being that caffeine is used in a number of cosmetics products to affect the surface of the skin..."

Or to just add an ingredient simply for the sake of adding it or because it's the latest exotic, trendy, or "crunchy" thing to play around with. I am bemused at the amazing variety of improbable ingredients that people are adding to soap. I personally think caffeine falls in that camp. :-| But that's just me....


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## bridger

DeeAnna said:


> "...the point being that caffeine is used in a number of cosmetics products to affect the surface of the skin..."
> 
> Or to just add an ingredient simply for the sake of adding it or because it's the latest exotic, trendy, or "crunchy" thing to play around with. I am bemused at the amazing variety of improbable ingredients that people are adding to soap. I personally think caffeine falls in that camp. :-| But that's just me....




I think it's likely that you are right. however, caffeine is definitely an active substance. the skin is definitely interacting with whatever gets on it, and shaving is a process that depends on several factors being within fairly tight tolerance. it's plausible that it would constrict or relax hair follicles or sweat glands or something which would make some kind of difference in a shave. it is at least as likely to make things worse for shaving as better, but as far as I can gather this is an unexplored avenue. if I can find no other data I'll probably buy a small quantity of powdered caffeine and mix it into a bowl of lather and try it. hopefully it won't result in fatal nicks. roblem:


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## fatfacedcharlie

Just CPd this, and it nearly blew up my stick blender! It goes from a horrible seized lumpy mess, to apple sauce then mashed potatoes in about 10 minutes, then with some careful short bursts with the blender it goes lovely and creamy, like a thick white custard. It seems to be pretty much saponified by that stage (It passed the zap test at least). It does get mentally hot tho', almost like it's HPing itself. I'll give a week or so before I try a lather with it just in case, don't want to mess up my boyish good looks (or more importantly my badger brush).


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## bridger

first report on caffeinated shave soap.

the soap was my version of faux MdC. (55% stearic, 45% coconut, via potassium hydroxide). the razor was my very fine Karl Peters Jr. Solingen blade honed to 10k and stropped on linen then scotch shell. the brush was silvertip badger.

the caffeine was anhydrous white powder purchased on eBay. it came in a zip lock baggie looking for all the world like some sort of illicit drug. 

I worked up a little lather off of the puck and transferred it to the bowl where I mixed it with the caffeine. I worked the lather a bit more - enough to feel like it was well mixed in. I didn't measure - just a tiny pinch. other than that I tried to do everything the same as always. there is nothing scientific about it... this is all subjective.

 the result... I got a nice smooth single pass shave with perhaps slightly less post- shave irritation than usual. but that may be illusory...

 I shaved around midnight, right before going to bed. we'll see if I have trouble sleeping.


I can't draw any conclusions from this one shave. I'll be trying different amounts of caffeine in future lathers. so far all I can say is that caffeinated soap isn't necessarily a disaster.


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## DeeAnna

Your post reminded me that I need to give an update on my Songwind shave soap adventure.

I made almost the same recipe as my first batch -- 52% stearic, 48% coconut oil, 5% superfat, and distilled water for the water phase. The difference was I didn't use all KOH -- I used 80% KOH and 20% NaOH for the lye. 

I saponified just the coconut oil with all of the lye  in a double boiler at 180 deg F. I kept cooking and stirring (a bit with a stick blender, a lot by hand) until the batter came to a heavy pudding trace. That took 15 minutes or a bit more. After I got to that point, I added the melted stearic in several stages and stirred by hand. When the stearic was all mixed in, the soap had a "waxy mashed potatoes" consistency. I cooked it in the double boiler for about 15 minutes and checked for zap (nope). I added glycerin (15% of the oil weight), let the soap cool below 120 deg F, added EOs (same blend as before), and finished it up as I have described in a previous post.

Next batch, I want to check (gingerly) for zap right after stirring in the stearic. I suspect it will be fine (but I won't assume that!). I still think my 2 step method of making this soap works pretty nice and will continue to use it.

The 20% NaOH makes the soap somewhat less sticky out of the soap pot. It is also slightly firmer than the 100% KOH version so it was a bit easier to hand shape the soap into pucks. But it is still a soft shaving soap, not a hard bar, so no amazing differences there. 

Since I use this soap for shaving armpits and legs when I shower, I keep the soap on a dry shelf in the shower (well, as dry as a shelf in a shower can be). The soap in that environment seems to stay a bit less sticky than the all-KOH version, but no huge differences there either. Neither goes "melty" or super gooey in the damp, but they're never sitting in a puddle of water either. I will keep an eye on this aspect of the soap as it continues to cure and dry.

As far as lather goes, an NaOH-KOH soap is slightly less soluble than an all-KOH version, but at just 20% NaOH, it's a fine shade of difference IMO. As the NaOH percentage goes even higher, I would expect the soap to lather more slowly, requiring a real shaving brush and someone who knows how to use it, rather than a rank amateur like me.

Will I continue to increase the NaOH percentage in this recipe to make a harder shaving soap? I'm leaning toward probably not. I like the amazing lather of Songwind's recipe and I think adding more NaOH will only detract from that. Better to develop a hard shaving bar with other ingredients, as Mark The Box Guy has recommended.


----------



## bridger

bridger said:


> first report on caffeinated shave soap.




no discernible stimulant effects.


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## bridger

I shaved a second time with caffeine powder added to the lather, but this time I used a lot more. I don't have a convenient way to measure milligrams so I used the tip of my straight razor to scoop a bit out and dump it in the bowl. the pile of powder was about the size of a pea, probably the equivalent of a dozen cups of coffee or so at 95 mg. per cup of coffee. I shaved about 7:00 PM or so, and I'd say I did see a small stimulant effect- we stayed up and watched a movie which I had no problem staying alert for. it was a pretty engaging piece though, and I didn't really have trouble sleeping after that, so not sure I can attribute any stimulant effect to the shave.

as far as the effects of the caffeine on the shave, again nothing dramatic. I nicked myself a little on my chin and it barely bled- I'd say less than I'd think it would have normally- but again subjectivity is an obstacle to hard data. I didn't use any pre or post shave products per usual and had very little irritation, but again no dramatic changes.

I can try upping the amounts again. at some point I'll run into the undesirable effects, whatever those are. it doesn't look like overdosing on caffeine is likely by adding it to shaving lather, and the trend seems to be away from skin irritation which seems a bit counterintuitive to me, but consistent with some comments elsewhere. since the application only lasts for a few minutes and is washed off it seems to me that it would be difficult to get into real trouble with this, but I am not a medically trained person. I suppose at some level there may be an effect where there is a loss of circulation in the skin, which could cause problems. I'll be watching out for something like that. if there is a stimulant effect similar to drinking coffee it is very slight, but in theory that could come into play at high quantities. I certainly won't be giving up my morning cup of coffee for caffeinated shave soap.  however, if it proves to allow a closer shave with no negative effects it might get included in my rotation.


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## Skatergirl46

I'm going to try making some shaving soap with KOH today. I am planning to use it on my legs, etc. so I'm thinking that 48% CO might be a bit too drying for my skin. Going to tweak the recipe a bit and see how it goes. Just doing a small batch HP to try it out.  Is there anything I need to know about using KOH? This is my first time using it.


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## Mark the Box Guy

Skatergirl46 said:


> I'm going to try making some shaving soap with KOH today. I am planning to use it on my legs, etc. so I'm thinking that 48% CO might be a bit too drying for my skin. Going to tweak the recipe a bit and see how it goes. Just doing a small batch HP to try it out.  Is there anything I need to know about using KOH? This is my first time using it.



The only time I used it was for this MdC shave soap, and I found that it traced reasonably quickly, with no time to really use the stick blender.

Also: there may be a lot of CO, but both DeeAnna and I, and I suspect FatFace Charlie and Songwind all found no problem with drying.

Post some photos of your lathered legs. :evil:


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## Skatergirl46

Mark the Box Guy said:


> The only time I used it was for this MdC shave soap, and I found that it traced reasonably quickly, with no time to really use the stick blender.
> 
> Also: there may be a lot of CO, but both DeeAnna and I, and I suspect FatFace Charlie and Songwind all found no problem with drying.
> 
> Post some photos of your lathered legs. :evil:



Thanks Mark! I tried a slightly different recipe:

Stearic Acid 52%
CO 25%
Castor 10% 
Hemp oil 8%

I added 5% Jojoba oil, 1.5 T. Glycerin, and Cucumber Melon FO after the cook. I added 2 t. Kaolin clay to the Castor oil and mixed it into the rest of the oils. It traced fast when I added the KOH water but didn't seize. I put the lid onto the crock pot just for a few minutes until it got that translucent look. Tried it and no zap.    It looked like slightly off white mashed potatoes. I scooped it into some small plastic cups and it's in the frig. cooling.   When I washed my tools they made a nice lather so I'm hopeful. Here's a pic.


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## Mark the Box Guy

Skatergirl46 said:


> Thanks Mark! I tried a slightly different recipe:
> 
> Stearic Acid 52%
> CO 25%
> Castor 10%
> Hemp oil 8%
> 
> I added 5% Jojoba oil, 1.5 T. Glycerin, and Cucumber Melon FO after the cook. I added 2 t. Kaolin clay to the Castor oil and mixed it into the rest of the oils. It traced fast when I added the KOH water but didn't seize. I put the lid onto the crock pot just for a few minutes until it got that translucent look. Tried it and no zap.    It looked like slightly off white mashed potatoes. I scooped it into some small plastic cups and it's in the frig. cooling.   When I washed my tools they made a nice lather so I'm hopeful. Here's a pic.



Mine looked exactly the same! YEAH! It will want a lot of water- A LOT OF WATER- to make lather early on, and you might be tempted to think that it turned out bad, but after a couple of weeks it lather up on its own, without any help from you.


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## Skatergirl46

I forgot to say that I didn't stick blend at all. I used my silicone spatula and a few vigorous stirs with my whisk to mix it and that was all that was needed. 

When I got home from skating tonight I needed shower, so I decided to take some of this into the shower with me and try it on my legs etc.  I borrowed my husband's shaving brush. I got the brush good and wet and swirled it on the top of the soap. I got a thick and creamy lather that was stable and smooth. Sorry there's not picture but I was in the shower 
Even at a few hours old I'm going to call this a success. My legs got a great shave and were not dry. The soap has good slip and I like the fragrance too. (BB Cucumber Melon). :smile: Really looking forward to this being cured.


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## SomethingGoodAustin

Wow.  I can't wait to try this!  But no clay, huh?  I'd always heard that clay was a must-have in shaving soap.


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## Skatergirl46

SomethingGoodAustin said:


> Wow.  I can't wait to try this!  But no clay, huh?  I'd always heard that clay was a must-have in shaving soap.



I used clay in mine and I like the extra slip it provides.


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## SomethingGoodAustin

DeeAnna said:


> It's a soft soap, yes, but I don't think it needs a preservative, especially if you let it dry properly between uses. It's not like a liquid or true cream soap that has water added after the cook. The only reason why this soap is soft is that we're using KOH not NaOH. If we had been using NaOH, it would make a firm bar soap.
> 
> My batch is going on 4 weeks old now, and it has firmed up some but is still pliable like a soft wax. The soap does not crack or crumble. I use it as-is in the shower, but you could easily press it into a shaving mug or jar for use with a shaving brush.



Would using NaOH affect the lather or feel, do you think?


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## SomethingGoodAustin

Skatergirl46 said:


> I used clay in mine and I like the extra slip it provides.




How much did you use? In my regular shave soaps, I usually add about a tbsp per 20 ounce batch.


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## Skatergirl46

SomethingGoodAustin said:


> How much did you use? In my regular shave soaps, I usually add about a tbsp per 20 ounce batch.



That sounds about right.


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## SomethingGoodAustin

Thanks for the info!  Going to give it a try right now...


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## DeeAnna

"...Would using NaOH affect the lather or feel, do you think? ..."

Yes, it will. NaOH will make the soap harder and will reduce the lather, depending on how much you use in proportion to your KOH.


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## Mark the Box Guy

Clay should be in all shave soap recipes.


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## SomethingGoodAustin

Made two 8 oz batches of Songwind's recipe, as modified by DeeAnna (55/45 ratio) two days ago.  Added a teaspoon of bentonite clay and half a tsp of oat powder to one, but followed the recipe exactly for the other.  Agreed--the lather is wonderfully thick and creamy (although I can't seem to achieve the impressive billowy clouds of lather I see in the photos posted so far).  Shave is very smooth on my legs.  The batch with the clay and oat powder feels slightly more conditioning than the control batch--but neither feel quite as conditioning as another recipe I tried with hemp, castor, and butters.  Still, very nice and the slight difference in afterfeel might be due to the fact that this soap is very fresh.

I'm curious to know how the soap behaves over time.  After freezing and with the use of a liner in my column mold, I was able to cut the control batch into pucks, but they are very soft and sticky.  I can't see shipping them in any form except a container.  Those of you whose soap has had a few weeks or longer to cure--did you notice the soap hardening somewhat with curing?  Did the quality of the shave change over time?


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## SomethingGoodAustin

SomethingGoodAustin said:


> Made two 8 oz batches of Songwind's recipe, as modified by DeeAnna (55/45 ratio) two days ago.  Added a teaspoon of bentonite clay and half a tsp of oat powder to one, but followed the recipe exactly for the other.  Agreed--the lather is wonderfully thick and creamy (although I can't seem to achieve the impressive billowy clouds of lather I see in the photos posted so far).  Shave is very smooth on my legs.  The batch with the clay and oat powder feels slightly more conditioning than the control batch--but neither feel quite as conditioning as another recipe I tried with hemp, castor, and butters.  Still, very nice and the slight difference in afterfeel might be due to the fact that this soap is very fresh.
> 
> I'm curious to know how the soap behaves over time.  After freezing and with the use of a liner in my column mold, I was able to cut the control batch into pucks, but they are very soft and sticky.  I can't see shipping them in any form except a container.  Those of you whose soap has had a few weeks or longer to cure--did you notice the soap hardening somewhat with curing?  Did the quality of the shave change over time?


Oops--didn't read all the way through DeeAnna's post above.  It sounds as though the product might be shippable with curing time.  Has anyone else noticed anything different?

Thanks as always!


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## Mark the Box Guy

basically, the lather you've seen has been made by a brush after a bit of vigorous whipping. It's unlikely that you'll get the same lather in a shower of running water when using a washcloth. Also, Songwind's recipe (a clone of Martin de Candre Shave soap "MdC") is a soft soap made in the Italian style. It's not supposed to be hard like a puck. Instead, it is poured from the crockpot directly into individual pots.

Some folks are trying to make a hard puck (which always wants clay,) but the puck will generally only use NaOH. My sense, however, is that a puck needn't be rock solid, and might benefit from a bit of KOH to soften it up a bit. You might also consider the notion that shave soap takes clay so that the razor glides smoothly, and that anything grainy, like oatmeal, might damage a razor and exfoliate, neither of which is ideal.


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## SomethingGoodAustin

Mark the Box Guy said:


> basically, the lather you've seen has been made by a brush after a bit of vigorous whipping. It's unlikely that you'll get the same lather in a shower of running water when using a washcloth. Also, Songwind's recipe (a clone of Martin de Candre Shave soap "MdC") is a soft soap made in the Italian style. It's not supposed to be hard like a puck. Instead, it is poured from the crockpot directly into individual pots.
> 
> Some folks are trying to make a hard puck (which always wants clay,) but the puck will generally only use NaOH. My sense, however, is that a puck needn't be rock solid, and might benefit from a bit of KOH to soften it up a bit. You might also consider the notion that shave soap takes clay so that the razor glides smoothly, and that anything grainy, like oatmeal, might damage a razor and exfoliate, neither of which is ideal.


Thanks for the information!  I wasn't using a washcloth, but a badgerhair shaving brush.  However, I also didn't work the lather very long--only about 30-40 seconds, as I was trying to replicate the shaving habits of men I know who are not necessarily shaving enthusiasts.  But that may not be my ideal market, anyway.

I didn't notice any graininess, since the oat powder is actually a fine flour.  But I can see where there might be a potential for clumping, which would be a problem.  

I'm really excited about this recipe, even though it pretty much flies in the face of everything I've read regarding making shaving soaps*.  It works amazingly well!  My main concern is shipping at a time when I can't necessarily afford containers.  But I think a moldable puck, like the one DeeAnna achieved with her mix of NaOH and KOH, might be a more than acceptable compromise.  It might even be preferred by people who have a favorite cup or other container.

I think I'm also going to break down and order some Sodium Lactate.  Incidentally, are there shavers who prefer a hard puck over softer, more creamy soaps?  

* As always, I learn so much from these threads.  But I swear, at this point I've heard so many conflicting opinions and seen so many different recipes regarding shave soaps--everything from "It's just really conditioning soap with clay" to incredibly complex formulas with high stearic butters and coconut oil under 10%... I don't know what to think anymore!


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## Mark the Box Guy

Though shavers often prefer one type of soap (cream, soft, puck, etc...,) it's important to note that we all seem to own and use every conceivable type. We even collect it. A friend just sent me a tub of Slovakian soft soap not because it's supposed to be great, but instead because I want soap from all over the world. 

Shameless begging: isn't there a Greek shave soap maker that posts here? Send me a puck and I'll send you a bowl of my MdC!

Thirty seconds of a properly loaded brush should produce a good lather with Songwind's MdC recipe, but a minute, or longer would really whip nice. It's a soft soap and designed that to behave that way. Expecting a hard puck to produce lather that quickly will result in disappointment. Pucks are just different. Even Berlin Phil says so. It's not more complicated than that. 

Have you watched any lathering videos on YouTube? The recurring themes are: to use a medium amount of hot water and adjust this as required; properly loading the brush with soap is critical but subject to a great deal of maniacally precise stylistic interpretation, including loading the brush upside down after shaking it three times; that it should be whipped for a long time either in a bowl, a scuttle or directly on the relevant body parts; and that you should consider the notion that making a lathering video is hysterically dull.

I've only ever made the MdC soft soap from this thread, but I'm about to try a hard puck. More than likely it will have a large percentage of tallow, some stearic acid, perhaps some Coconut oil, a small amount of lanolin, a bit of castor (which is probably a bad idea), some clay, and some combination of NaOH and KOH. It will be hot-processed, and probably called Mark's Wool Fat.


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## SomethingGoodAustin

Mark the Box Guy said:


> Though shavers often prefer one type of soap (cream, soft, puck, etc...,) it's important to note that we all seem to own and use every conceivable type. We even collect it. A friend just sent me a tub of Slovakian soft soap not because it's supposed to be great, but instead because I want soap from all over the world.
> 
> Shameless begging: isn't there a Greek shave soap maker that posts here? Send me a puck and I'll send you a bowl of my MdC!
> 
> Thirty seconds of a properly loaded brush should produce a good lather with Songwind's MdC recipe, but a minute, or longer would really whip nice. It's a soft soap and designed that to behave that way. Expecting a hard puck to produce lather that quickly will result in disappointment. Pucks are just different. Even Berlin Phil says so. It's not more complicated than that.
> 
> Have you watched any lathering videos on YouTube? The recurring themes are: to use a medium amount of hot water and adjust this as required; properly loading the brush with soap is critical but subject to a great deal of maniacally precise stylistic interpretation, including loading the brush upside down after shaking it three times; that it should be whipped for a long time either in a bowl, a scuttle or directly on the relevant body parts; and that you should consider the notion that making a lathering video is hysterically dull.
> 
> I've only ever made the MdC soft soap from this thread, but I'm about to try a hard puck. More than likely it will have a large percentage of tallow, some stearic acid, perhaps some Coconut oil, a small amount of lanolin, a bit of castor (which is probably a bad idea), some clay, and some combination of NaOH and KOH. It will be hot-processed, and probably called Mark's Wool Fat.



I've been watching mantic59's videos to get a feel for what the real shaving aficionados prefer.  They're very instructive.  One of the things I learned is that shaving aficionados are, um, quirky folk to say the least.

The shaving soap I've been making with only NaOH has no tallow or lanolin, but a lot of butters and castor (about 20%), some hemp and avocado oils, plus added stearic and glycerin. Coconut oil is just under 10% as per other posters' recommendations. The soap takes a while to harden up, but once it does it lathers well.  I get a decent lather after about 30-40 seconds of working it with the brush and some water.  It's nothing like Songwind's recipe, though (Perhaps the low coconut plus the oleic acid content in the shea butter and avocado oils is creating an issue).

Aside from lather, the soap feels good on my legs.  I've been told it gives a good shave overall.  But I wasn't quite satisfied and now I'm _really_ not.  I was planning to try boosting the glycerin (10% ppo currently) in my formula to increase lubrication, but now I think I'm going to try adding a bit of KOH as well.  I feel inspired!  (Scary!)


----------



## alaskazimm

I finally got around to making a batch of the shaving soap listed in the first post. It was also my first experiment with HP. 

218 gr coconut
236 gr stearic acid
98 gr KOH
230 gr water
3 Tbsp glycerin

I cooked it 20 min over a (makeshift) double boiler at around 160F and got no zap on the zap-test. So far it all seemed like it was going according to this thread. Unmolded it after an overnight sit and cut it into bars and it still looks wet inside. I did a test lather with one piece and it produced a wonderful lather.
Did this separate into the coconut and stearic components? Does this simply need to dry out some more or does it need to go back into the cooker for longer?

Thanks for you help.


----------



## DeeAnna

Wait a bit and the color should lighten and even up. I cook mine for 15-20 minutes as well and I get no zap at that point. I see the same color variation in the cooled soap at first, but my soap has become uniformly stark white in a day or three. So "patience, grasshopper". 

It does lather nicely at first, but I have also noticed that it lathers even better as time goes on -- the older soap takes less water, in particular, to build a thick cream.

Kudos!

Edit -- I'm not quite sure what is going on, but it almost looks like a crystallization process to me -- like the growth of frost on a cold window pane. I think it's kinda cool to watch the soap gradually change.


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## ocean_soul

So awhile back I tried this recipe out using the directions listed on on Badger & Blade forum....only the directions there had the glycerin being added *before* the cook.  I'm pretty sure that's why my shaving soap dries my legs out like no other.  >_<  Next time I try making this soap I'll make sure to add the glycerin last.


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## alaskazimm

Oh awesome. I was hoping someone would say that! I was just a bit unsure as I've never done any HP'ing before.

Thank you DeeAnna - I mean sensei 

Edit: And the scent combo that you came up with smells just great. I really like it.


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## DeeAnna

Ocean -- I'm not sure it really makes a difference when you add the glycerin. The lye is reacting with the fatty acid and fat, and I don't believe the glycerin is involved in the chemistry. That said, maybe there is some reaction going on that would tie up the glycerin during the cook. Or it could be some other issue that is making your soap more drying than you'd like. 

My versions of Songwind's recipe are not overly drying to my skin. I am using 15% glycerin based on the total oil/stearic weight (see Post 94 in this thread). Adding a little more superfat might cut the lather some, but that might also be an option to experiment with if you need the soap to be less drying.

Alaska -- I've only done a few HP batches, mostly this shaving soap, so we're both "grasshoppers" doing this together. But I figure if you or I can figure out how to HP this shaving soap into submission, then we can HP most any regular type of soap as well.


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## ocean_soul

Ah, then perhaps I just needed more glycerin, period.  I only a tablespoon or so.  I'll definitely use more next time around.


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## DeeAnna

Yep, I think you might want to try more glycerin and see what you think. 

My last batch had a total of 1000 grams (35.24 ounces by weight) of "oils" -- meaning my stearic acid + coconut oil. 

I would have put 150 grams of glycerin in that batch. If my math is correct, that is roughly 1/2 cup (8 Tablespoons) of glycerin.


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## Mark the Box Guy

Hold on a minute: you cut it into bars?? It's a very soft soap and will never harden up. Soft shave soaps are made with KOH and are supposed to be poured into a bowl and used with a brush. I have no idea how long it will last in a shower's wet environment, but I suspect that most of it will simply melt down the drain. My humble recommendation is to squash it into lidded tubs and to either use a brush (if that method works for you) or scoop it out with your fingers and rub it on the appropriate body part before resealing the tub.


----------



## DeeAnna

Hey, Mark, hi! The soap as I've made it lasts pretty well in the shower, as long as I don't leave it sitting in a puddle of water after I'm done shaving. It is soft, no question, but the soap is not particularly soluble due to all that stearic so it handles the damp environment of the shower very well. 

The soap is a bit soft to cut into bars, but I do mold it by hand into a little puck that holds its shape fairly well. The soap I made, even with 100% KOH, is a bit too firm to scoop out by hand. A soap that is more of a squeezable paste is where I'm going next -- I think 100% KOH and a bit more water is probably what will work. Will keep ya posted -- it might be a few weeks.


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## alaskazimm

I'm a guy and started wet shaving within the last year so it will be used with a brush. No worries about that part. I don't intend to use it in the shower and only have it in bars for curing and storage.
Yes, it is very soft but it firmed up enough to be cut into bars. I was going to put it into tubs, but I didn't have any on hand. I got the idea for bars from the thread over on Badger & Blade so went with that.


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## Tizzy

Maybe I missed it after searching this thread but what lye concentration would you use with songwind's recipe?

I tried the recipe with 30% lye concentration and the batch came out lye heavy.


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## alaskazimm

I used 30% with a 5% discount and it came out fine. If your batch was lye heavy then it means one of three things (that I can think of):
1 - you didn't get the batter mixed well enough and it has some areas where the lye accumulated
2- not enough oils/too much lye
3- you need to cook the mixture longer (or let it cure) for the saponification process to complete

First thing would be to make sure your scale is accurate and you measured correctly. 5 US quarters equal one ounce/grams.

Need to run but hopefully this gives you a good starting place.


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## DeeAnna

Lye concentration and total lye are completely two different things, and I suspect you might be confusing the two.

Lye concentration has nothing to do with a soap being lye heavy. It's the total amount of lye (by "lye" I mean KOH, NaOH, or both) in your soap batch that determines whether a soap is skin safe or lye heavy. With a properly calculated recipe and correctly measured total amount of lye, you should be able to use any reasonable lye concentration you prefer and end up with a safe soap.

If you need a total of 100 g of NaOH in a soap batch, you could dissolve that 100 grams in 200 g of water to make a 33% solution (1 part NaOH, 2 parts water) or you could dissolve that 100 grams of NaOH in 300 grams of water to make a 25% solution (1 part NaOH, 3 parts water) or whatever. You'd have a total of 100 grams of NaOH in the soap in either of these examples; the difference would be the amount of water you would use. 

21 May 2014 edit: KOH is somewhat more soluble than NaOH in water, so you can basically use the same solution concentrations for KOH that you would use for NaOH.  Many people use 3 parts water and 1 part KOH -- a 25% solution -- or sometimes even more water.

Songwind and I didn't specify the lye concentration for the soaps we describe in this thread. That is something most soapers would choose for themselves. To answer your question directly, I would use a 25% concentration of lye in water (1 part lye and 3 parts water) to make this recipe using all or mostly KOH and a hot process method.

Hope this helps.


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## Tizzy

I'm still learning soap making and your explanation DeeAnna makes so much sense. Thank you alaskazimm and DeeAnna for your help. I think my problem was I added too much lye. My scale (a postal scale) was acting up when I was trying that recipe. Gonna invest in a good scale.


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## DeeAnna

Yep, Tizzy, I bet your scale is not accurate enough. Good call! 

I have two scales for my soap and lotion making. For oil, water, lye, and other larger weighing jobs, I use My Weigh KD7000: http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-kd7000-black.html The KD 8000 is similar but can handle more weight and costs a bit more. 

For measuring essential and fragrance oils and other small weighing jobs, I use My Weigh iBalance 300: http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-ibalance-300.html


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## alaskazimm

Also recommend the KD7000. A solid inexpensive scale that comes with a splash shield for the display.


----------



## Saswede

Well, I finally got hold of some KOH yesterday, so made my first shaving soap this morning!  I decided to add in a little shea butter and castor oil (5% of each) for moisturizing (after all, winter is around the corner), so I slightly reduced the proportion of stearic acid and CO - but made sure that the stearic acid content on SoapCalc stayed above 50%.  Scented with bay laurel and sweet orange, with a hint of peppermint (all EOs), which I felt would give a subtle fresh fragrance that would suit the slightly greenish color from the bentonite clay.  The whole house now smells fabulous!

It was really different than any HP or CP soap I've ever made, going from oil to "gloop" as soon as I added the lye.  So definitely no need for the SB!  Now I can't wait to try it out - and get DH to try it to give his opinion.  He'll be the real test, because he's quite adamant that I won't be able to make anything as good as his Dr Harris shaving soap (which he buys online from Manufactum).  


Sent from my iPad using Soap Making


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## roguehippo

Happy Halloween.... I'm bringing this thread back to life. 

Okay, so I've read through this thread couple times. I want to try to make a new shaving soap. The one I make now is NaOH only and I'm curious about mixing NaOH and KOH. Sounds like a great science experiment. So here's my question. When you are entering it into soap calc....are you doing it as NaOH lye or KOH (since you'd use more)? 

My theory is, I want to use 85% KOH and 15% NaOH. Has anyone tried this? It never occurred to me to do this.


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## Mark the Box Guy

roguehippo said:


> Happy Halloween.... I'm bringing this thread back to life.
> 
> My theory is, I want to use 85% KOH and 15% NaOH. Has anyone tried this? It never occurred to me to do this.



We like this thread, so bringing it back to life isn't really a bad thing 

As for mixing KOH and NaOH: DeeAnna did this back on page 10, and found that it hardened up the soap nicely. Take a look.


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## roguehippo

Okay. Thanks. I wasn't sure if I read it or not. My eyes start crossing after a while. Lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Soap Making


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## DeeAnna

Three molecules of KOH are needed to saponify one molecule of fat. Three molecules of NaOH are needed to saponify one molecule of fat. Sounds easy peasy, right? But there's a catch -- one molecule of KOH weighs more than one molecule of NaOH. 

Let's say you need 100 molecules of each kind of lye to correctly saponify a soap recipe. Since we can't count molecules, then measuring by weight is the only reasonable option. 100 molecules of KOH and 100 molecules of NaOH will be different weights.

There are several ways to figure the correct weight of the two lyes to make your soap. Some people use the summerbeemeadow.com soap calculator. It will allow you to specify the percentages of the two lyes and figure the recipe directly.

Another way to figure the lye is to use your favorite soap recipe calculator. Calculate the exact same soap recipe twice, but use NaOH as the lye for the first version and KOH as the lye for the second version.

For the first version, the recipe calculator will tell you how much NaOH that you would need to use if you wanted NaOH as ALL of the lye. In the second version, it will tell you how much KOH you would need to use if KOH was ALL of the lye.

Since you want a mixture of 15% NaOH and 85% KOH for the recipe, multiply the NaOH weight times 0.15. And multiply the KOH weight times 0.85. That will give you the correct weights of each lye to mix together to make the recipe with 15% NaOH and 85% KOH.

Hope this helps.


----------



## SomethingGoodAustin

Well, as long as we're resurrecting this thread... I've been playing with different proportions of KOH and NaOH.  I used Skatergirl46's modified recipe with hemp and jojoba and a proportion of 70% KOH and 30% NaOH.  Came out with an extreeeemely soft bar, but still sliceable.  Lather was lovely and very moisturizing--I honestly can't tell the difference between this and most shaving gels/creams I've used in the past.  However, there's no way it'd ship without being in a jar of some sort.  

Since it was so soft, I skipped over 60/40 and went straight to 50/50.  Much firmer, but still pliable.  It takes a little longer to load the brush, of course, but it holds its shape, is very sliceable, and still feels great.  I've also tried adding a touch of shea butter, both for conditioning and for marketing purposes--that one came out a hair firmer, even with a slightly lower stearic number on soapcalc.  Weird.  

I'm going to try one more test batch with 60/40 KOH and NaOH, (for science!) to see if I can hit my Goldilocks-just-right mark, but I think I've found my jam, as the kids say.


----------



## Mark the Box Guy

I'm still stunned by everyone's attempt to slice a soft soap. I suppose that it can't be rubbed on someone's legs or Lady Business (thanks JaimeM); it must be smushed.

Soft Shaving Soap = Jar
Hard Shaving Soap = Bar

Them's the rules, babies.


----------



## Skatergirl46

SomethingGoodAustin said:


> Well, as long as we're resurrecting this thread... I've been playing with different proportions of KOH and NaOH.  I used Skatergirl46's modified recipe with hemp and jojoba and a proportion of 70% KOH and 30% NaOH.  Came out with an extreeeemely soft bar, but still sliceable.  Lather was lovely and very moisturizing--I honestly can't tell the difference between this and most shaving gels/creams I've used in the past.  However, there's no way it'd ship without being in a jar of some sort.
> 
> Since it was so soft, I skipped over 60/40 and went straight to 50/50.  Much firmer, but still pliable.  It takes a little longer to load the brush, of course, but it holds its shape, is very sliceable, and still feels great.  I've also tried adding a touch of shea butter, both for conditioning and for marketing purposes--that one came out a hair firmer, even with a slightly lower stearic number on soapcalc.  Weird.
> 
> I'm going to try one more test batch with 60/40 KOH and NaOH, (for science!) to see if I can hit my Goldilocks-just-right mark, but I think I've found my jam, as the kids say.



Yeah, mine is too soft also. I have some in a shaving mug that I am currently using. I like the soft skin and the shave I get from it but I would like to have an actual bar that is hard enough to be in a soap dish and be used without a brush if so desired. I'm eagerly awaiting your results from the 60/40 batch. 

Did you use SL in yours?  

DeeAnna thank you for that explanation of the differences in weight between KOH and NaOH. That helped me to understand. I want to make a batch with both soon.


----------



## SomethingGoodAustin

Skatergirl, I didn't use any SL--I haven't worked with it much and wasn't sure in what proportion to add it for this formula.  Combining KOH and NaOH seemed more straightforward and likely to get measurable results.  But I'll definitely check back in and let folks know how the 60/40 batch turned out.


----------



## ourwolfden

*While looking for lye at Rural King I found a product called Main Line Cleaner.  According to the label and it’s MSDS sheet it is made up of both Sodium Hydroxide and Potassium Hydroxide.  I went ahead a bought it for this project (at $10 a gallon I can deal with running it down one of my drains if I can’t use it for soap).  I just sent an e-mail to their customer service department explaining what I want to do with it and asking them if they could tell me what percent of each they use.  I know this maybe proprietary but it never hurts to ask!  *


----------



## DeeAnna

Even if the proportion of lyes (NaOH and KOH) is acceptable, your drain-cleaner solution may well not be concentrated enough. The liquid drain cleaner I checked into was much too dilute. You want about 28% lye solution or higher to make soap. If you were to use a lye solution that is less concentrated than that, the soap could very easily not set up properly or could separate in the mold into an oil layer and water layer.


----------



## ourwolfden

Thanks DeeAnna that makes sense.  I guess I will wait and see if they respond to my e-mail if not, I'll run it down the drain as preventative maintenance.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Looking forward to trying this one.  I'm loving the Taylors Sandalwood soap (amazing scent comes through my Bay Rum aftershave!) but willing to try a softer soap.

For the record, I love the scent of the Arko stick - sure it's a little bit 'special', but still smells manly.  If anyone can advise on how to make that scent, I'd be grateful, but leaving my soap in a public urinal for 1 month is not something I'm willing to try!


----------



## lsg

Wow, I love that lather!


----------



## shunt2011

I'm going to give this a go this weekend.  Hope it turns out as awesome for me.  Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and feedback.


----------



## DeeAnna

I'm seeing people comparing the Arko scent to the smell of a urinal block or a "chemistry experiment gone bad". Or Ivory soap with a touch of lemon. Or Irish Spring soap. 

Irish Spring dupe:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=12835
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=9001
Croco Turtle from 2/17/2013: "...Eucalyptus and spearmint, smells like Irish Spring to me..."
Kersten from 6/11/2013: "...Try this for the Irish Springs: http://www.sweetcakes.com/product_info.php?products_id=109 ..."

Ivory soap dupe:
Robert from 8/5/2013: "...Ivory soap (said to be a mixture of lemongrass & lemon)..."
Dandelion from 12/26/2010: "...i mixed equal amounts of lemon eucalyptus and scentworks lily of the valley and created the scent of ivory soap...."


----------



## JessieD

Mark the Box Guy said:


> I really didn't touch it for a couple of weeks, and now, a month later, it lathers itself when I walk by it and wink.



Oh My!!! I laughed so hard when I read this that tears were in my eyes! I can't believe no one commented on it. I'm just grateful I didn't have a mouthful of coffee, I may have had to replace my laptop! You completely made my day Mark!!:clap:



ourwolfden said:


> *While looking for lye at Rural King I found a product called Main Line Cleaner.  According to the label and it’s MSDS sheet it is made up of both Sodium Hydroxide and Potassium Hydroxide.  I went ahead a bought it for this project (at $10 a gallon I can deal with running it down one of my drains if I can’t use it for soap).  I just sent an e-mail to their customer service department explaining what I want to do with it and asking them if they could tell me what percent of each they use.  I know this maybe proprietary but it never hurts to ask!  *



Is it a powder or a liquid? Is there anything else in it? I'm just curious because I know that some drain cleaners have aluminum shavings in them. That's why it's so important to find ones that say 100% Lye on them. Looking forward to seeing the results of your email.


----------



## DeeAnna

The drain cleaner being discussed is a liquid product -- the poster explained it is sold in gallons.


----------



## ourwolfden

It was a liquid, but I havn't heard from them yet so I don't think I'll use it.


----------



## JessieD

Ahh...I somehow missed the gallon part.


----------



## Mark the Box Guy

DeeAnna said:


> I'm seeing people comparing the Arko scent to the smell of a urinal block or a "chemistry experiment gone bad".



I'm pretty sure that they actually use recycled military surplus urinal cakes in the manufacturing process and that this is an upgrade from their past source: beachside hotels and concert halls.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I love the smell of the Arko shaving stick.  Not urinal blocks, though!


----------



## lsg

Thanks for the recipe.  I made this for my guys and they really like it.


----------



## songwind

Holy cow! Life got pretty insane around here for a while and I haven't been able to drop in to the forum for a while. I had no idea it was listed on the front page or that this thread had blown up so much. 

It looks like we've been doing some of the same experiments, too. I also have added some more conditioning oils to my formula, and added some NaOH to firm it up. I found that my formulation at 75:25 KOH:NaOH is firm enough to be sliced, and after a couple of weeks of curing could be wrapped and shipped (probably in a box) if you didn't want to use a jar. I still think I'll use a jar for the basic presentation, and wrap it for shipping with a possible "luxury" hand-thrown ceramic bowl made by my wife.

I didn't add clay to mine. None of my favorite shave soaps use clay, and I don't care for the smell. The stearic acid makes a lovely slick and protective lather, and the glycerin's ability to hold on to extra water makes it even slicker. I haven't been disappointed in the performance, even with high aggression single-edge and open-comb razors.


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## DeeAnna

SONGWIND -- glad to hear from ya!!! Welcome back!


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## girlishcharm2004

I apologize if this has already been discussed, and I missed it.  My question is what percent of glycerin are you adding?  I also noticed you added it at the end.  Do you know if it affects lather?  If not, then I might try substituting the water with glycerin.  I hope that would make it moisturizing without adding too much excess liquid.  I can't wait to try this recipe!


----------



## songwind

I'm adding 3T PPO. I'm not sure what, if any difference it would make to add the glycerin earlier in the process. It's not going to react with the lye, so I don't see why it would be a problem.


----------



## girlishcharm2004

Awesome! Do you know if there's a difference if I don't use it?  I don't have it right now, but I really want to make this.  I'm wondering if it would make the skin feel drier if I didn't add it -- meaning I better wait until I get some.  Also, I wonder if it would inhibit lather if I added more!  I've never worked with glycerin before.


----------



## songwind

The glycerin acts as a humectant (attracts and holds water). It's also fairly slippery, and can be used as a lubricant. So I suspect that without it, it will affect the skin feel of the soap somewhat. However, the process of making soap creates glycerin as well - I'm just adding more.


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## girlishcharm2004

Right.  I guess my line of thought was that maybe people mentioned that it didn't seem drying was because of adding extra glycerin despite the high coconut oil content.  But then again, I'm the person who thinks, "well, if it's a good thing, let's dump loads more into it!" even though often times more is too much.


----------



## songwind

I'm sure the glycerin is part of the reason it's less drying. Also, the 5% superfat helps.


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## Soapman Ryan

I made the soap and it was nice. I used:
100% KOH
25% lye concentration
5% superfat
Stearic acid 52%
Coconut oil 48% 
Glycerin at 30% of the oil weight.

After "cooking", I pressed into tubs and after curing it cured quite hard. I'm pretty sure if I were to take it out of the tubs it would stand on its own and be a cutt-able bar.

My question, MdC shave soap is MUCH softer, like a hard cream based soap.
What could I do to tweak this recipe to make if softer, more towards a hard cream type shave soap?


----------



## songwind

Ryan, mine came out very soft, even softer than mdc, which is left to cure for a few months. I'd say it was a similar consistency to Castle Forbes.


----------



## Soapman Ryan

songwind said:


> Ryan, mine came out very soft, even softer than mdc, which is left to cure for a few months. I'd say it was a similar consistency to Castle Forbes.



When I made mine I did a small test batch, 200 grams of oils. 
I "cooked" mine for 1 hour. How long did you keep yours in the crockpot?
I did another test batch tonight and only cooked it for 20 min, like DeeAnna stated she did hers. Maybe this may help.


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## songwind

Mine definitely has never been finished turning to soap after 20 minutes. I think I end up leaving mine in around an hour.


----------



## DeeAnna

Maybe the difference in the time to saponify to a zap-free state is that I add the lye (KOH or KOH/NaOH blend) to just the coconut oil, stir and cook to a pudding-like trace, and only then add the stearic. This 2 step method may allow the saponification to go a little faster compared with the case when one adds the lye to a blend of coconut oil and stearic. 

Basically I'm HP'ing the coconut oil, the slowest ingredient to saponify, with an excess of lye, added heat, and very good mixing. These factors will drive the saponification reaction of the coconut oil to happen as quickly as possible.

When one adds lye to a mixture of CO and stearic, the overall saponification reaction will be slower for 2 reasons. The stearic reacts instantly with the lye so a large part of the lye is removed from "action" so to speak. The stearic also thickens and dilutes the soap batter, so it will be harder for the the remaining lye molecules to "meet up" with the coconut oil so they can saponify.


----------



## Soapman Ryan

DeeAnna said:


> Maybe the difference in the time to saponify to a zap-free state is that I add the lye (KOH or KOH/NaOH blend) to just the coconut oil, stir and cook to a pudding-like trace, and only then add the stearic. This 2 step method may allow the saponification to go a little faster compared with the case when one adds the lye to a blend of coconut oil and stearic.
> 
> Basically I'm HP'ing the coconut oil, the slowest ingredient to saponify, with an excess of lye, added heat, and very good mixing. These factors will drive the saponification reaction of the coconut oil to happen as quickly as possible.
> 
> When one adds lye to a mixture of CO and stearic, the overall saponification reaction will be slower for 2 reasons. The stearic reacts instantly with the lye so a large part of the lye is removed from "action" so to speak. The stearic also thickens and dilutes the soap batter, so it will be harder for the the remaining lye molecules to "meet up" with the coconut oil so they can saponify.



That makes sense, I did it the exact way you did it deeAnna. I just added the KOH to the coconut oil until it got to to a pudding-like trace. I then added the stearic acid and followed it with a 20 min. cook. This must be how come the soap is zap proof in 20 min. After turning the crock pot off, allowing the soap to cool, I then added the glycerin and essential oils.
p.s.- DeeAnna, I love your explanations. This gave me the ability to print your method so I could follow it to the tee.


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## DeeAnna

You're a sweetie, Ryan -- thanks! Glad I could help.

I think the stages this soap batter goes through with the KOH are pretty cool -- there's the initial curdled-milk look, the frothy little bubble stage that never shows up with NaOH, the creamy appearance of egg nog (without the whiskey, unfortunately), and finally an official Thanksgiving-turkey-gravy consistency. Neat....!


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## shunt2011

Well, I finally got around to making this and all I can say is wow.  My husband has tried it out and is very pleased.  I actually had to go online and order more Stearic so that I can make more.  Going to share it with other family members and maybe even consider selling it in a set with my other manly products.   Thanks again to all of you who have tested this.


----------



## chubasco

I decided to try soapmaking and used this as my first recipe (or the version posted on badgerandblade.com, which is basically the same). I put it in a Pringles can as a mold, and since it is a soft soap I am not sure when I can safely peel the can off so the soap retains its shape. It is harder today than it was last night, but I don't know if it is hard enough to keep its shape.

Any tips on how long to leave it in the mold?


----------



## grayceworks

This recipe will never get firm enough to really be "firm" but will always be very pliable, and even sticky in the centers. (This is normal... I double-checked with the recipe-poster over on B&B when I had questions -- he's very helpful!)

What you'll probably need to do is freeze it, and then unmold it, and cut almost immediately, it should still be soft enough to cut when frozen (mine was anyhow) and lay them out on parchment or wax paper to dry a bit. 

Another thing I found out, is that if you wrap them up later in anything that doesn't "breathe" then they will get sticky again. Because of the high glycerin content. Best to just loosely wrap them in something like coffee filters after they're dry enough to touch.

BTW, I like your username. Chubasco -- strong wind -- I used to have a horse with that name, he was my favorite! 

_ETA: Even better, just glop it into the intended shaving mugs/bowls/containers right from the crockpot! (again, don't tightly cover or it will stay sticky) I get little bowls and cheap mugs from the dollar store for this. Then you don't have to mold at all. _


----------



## Ruthie

songwind said:


> I'm curious how tallow or palm w/ 10% or so added stearic would do. And maybe some castor oil or coconut for extra fluffiness. That's my next shaving-related soap goal.



Songwind, thank you for starting this thread.  I'm just learning and collecting the supplies I need to experiment.

I was wondering if you had conducted this experiment and how it turned out.


----------



## songwind

Ruthie said:


> Songwind, thank you for starting this thread.  I'm just learning and collecting the supplies I need to experiment.
> 
> I was wondering if you had conducted this experiment and how it turned out.



I did. It didn't work nearly as well. I ended up modifying the recipe by adding shea butter, reducing the coconut and stearic, and using a mix of KOH and lye.


----------



## MzMolly65

DeeAnna said:


> Since you want a mixture of 15% NaOH and 85% KOH for the recipe, multiply the NaOH weight times 0.15. And multiply the KOH weight times 0.85. That will give you the correct weights of each lye to mix together to make the recipe with 15% NaOH and 85% KOH.



As old as this thread is I still can't help but comment.  

SERIOUSLY????  DeeAnna, you are a soaping ROCK STAR!  I'm so freaking impressed I want to be your apprentice *cue the music and the dancing mops*


----------



## songwind

MzMolly65 said:


> SERIOUSLY????  DeeAnna, you are a soaping ROCK STAR!  I'm so freaking impressed I want to be your apprentice *cue the music and the dancing mops*



I created a spreadsheet to calculate this for me based on the amount of soap I want to make and the percentage of KOH. It's very handy.

You can also calculate the weight of the solution by dividing the total amount of lye by the concentration percent you want. Then you subtract the total weight of lye from that to get the water.







Where w is the appropriate weight.


----------



## MzMolly65

songwind said:


> I created a spreadsheet to calculate this for me based on the amount of soap I want to make and the percentage of KOH.



Brilliant.  I admit I made a shaving soap that is so far .. less than impressive.  It's a creamy lather and slippery but very dull compared to your outcome.

I'm definitely going to give your version a try.  Would you care to update us on the latest version?  I see your comment about lowering the CO and SA and adding some butter .. would love to know what your final verdict is.


----------



## songwind

I've sent it out for tests, to universally positive reviews. (They ranged from "it's a good shaving soap, but it didn't excite me," to downright enthusiam.) The only negative was on the texture. Even at 25% NaOH, the soap never got firmer than moderately stiff putty, and it proved difficult to work with for a lot of users.

So, I have increased the final lye balance to 50/50, and ended up with something nicely malleable but also definitely a soft soap rather than a stiff cream.

The butter-using recipe leaves the skin in very nice shape after shaving. Aftershave isn't necessary after a good shave, which is saying something - for my face, anyway.


----------



## MAux

I researched for many months before attempting my first cream  HP shaving soap.  I'm not sure why I never ran across this thread, but I have really enjoyed reading it.  My soap is soft, I wasn't really sure what to expect, but now after reading this I feel much better about how it turned out.  I'm anxiously awaiting on of my wholesalers response about my new soap.


----------



## Belinda02

Almost have all my supplies to make this soap.  Local candle/soap store also has brushes with hand made handles.  I am thrilled. Got my husbands birthday present all picked out. Yea


----------



## Kyle 3 Pass

Hi everyone!

I just signed up for the forum since I am going to start making my own Italian soft shave soaps. I have been scanning this thread and have gotten lots of helps and pointers. 

It looks like stearic acid should be added to the batch after light trace has been reached with the oils. Would beef tallow be added with the oils in the first step stage or should i add it with the stearic acid after trace has been reached? I will be hot processing this. 

My ingredients will be stearic acid, beef tallow, castor oil, coconut oil, shea butter, and glycerine.


----------



## DeeAnna

If you're doing a 2-step saponification, the tallow would go in the pot along with all the other fats.

The main reason why it's nice to add the stearic acid at trace is ease of mixing. You can get the fats well mixed and saponifying nicely first, then when the stearic does its usual misbehaving, you are only tussling with getting the stearic mixed in properly.

You could add the glycerin at any time; I tend to add it after the cook is done, but that's not written in stone either.


----------



## Kyle 3 Pass

Thank you kindly, DeeAnna! I am also going to experiment with KOH/NaOH mix. I am looking to make a soft Italian soap. Not sticky but pliable enough to madh into a mug or container.


----------



## DeeAnna

If you're looking for a suggestion at which to start, you might try 60% KOH, 40% NaOH. The fats and fatty acids also affect consistency as much as the lye proportions, however. Songwind's soap, while sticky at first, dries down to a pliable consistency, even though it's all KOH.


----------



## Kyle 3 Pass

DeeAnna, when you melt the stearic acid before adding it to the lye/oil mixture, how much water do you add to it?


----------



## FlybyStardancer

I've never heard of adding water when melting stearic acid. You treat it like a hard oil.


----------



## songwind

DeeAnna said:


> If you're looking for a suggestion at which to start, you might try 60% KOH, 40% NaOH. The fats and fatty acids also affect consistency as much as the lye proportions, however. Songwind's soap, while sticky at first, dries down to a pliable consistency, even though it's all KOH.



The 100% KOH never really did get to a point where it was easy to handle, though. It pretty much requires a pot or bowl of some kind.

And yes, the exact amount and type of oils and additives affects everything. You could probably do 100% KOH until you are sure you have the oils and such you want before experimenting with hardness.


----------



## shugohmk

That looks lovely!
Good job~~!!


----------



## DeeAnna

Yep, StarDancer is right -- stearic won't mix with water. Stearic is basically like a fat.

You cannot melt it in the microwave, by the way. I recommend a water-bath double boiler. I put a couple of inches of water in a small sauce pan and bring it to a simmer. Measure the stearic into a small glass canning jar (something that's heat proof and heavy) and put the jar in the water. Ideally most of the jar will be submerged in the water, so the glass heats up nicely. Keep the water bath at a bare simmer -- about 180 deg F -- until the stearic melts. 

If you start your soap batter about the same time you start melting the stearic, the stearic should be ready by the time you want to add it to the batter. If the glass jar is hot enough overall, most of the stearic will end up in your soap pot when you pour it. If the container isn't hot enough, the stearic solidifies really fast on the container sides, and you might get a bit of a mess to scrape out. It works best for me if I pour all of the stearic into the batter at once -- I don't like to pour a little bit, mix, pour, mix, etc. Mix the stearic into the batter by hand -- the soap will get too stiff too quickly for a stick blender.


----------



## InNae

I'm new to the forum and soap making, but this thread has me really interested. I also new to wet shaving, but well the whole soap making thing has the chemist in me really interested. 

I have some questions about the process. I'm a chemist and have access to high concentration (45%)KOH. Would using a higher concentration KOH yield a harder soap due to less water or does the water evaporate off in the curing process?

I read someone talking about using sodium lactate... what is the typical usage rate to harder a bar up a bit (I realize this will vary some due to how hard you want but a starting range would be great)?

Is this recipe superfatted? If so and you do the two step process as DeeAnna mentioned none of the coconut oil will be left in the superfat portion correct? 

I haven't made a soap yet, but I'm going to hopefully today. This shave soap will not be my first, but I'm going to after I feel more comfortable with what's going on in the process. 

Thanks for the post Songwind and for all of the followups everyone who has been involved.

InNae


----------



## songwind

InNae said:


> I'm new to the forum and soap making, but this thread has me really interested. I also new to wet shaving, but well the whole soap making thing has the chemist in me really interested.
> 
> I have some questions about the process. I'm a chemist and have access to high concentration (45%)KOH. Would using a higher concentration KOH yield a harder soap due to less water or does the water evaporate off in the curing process?
> 
> I read someone talking about using sodium lactate... what is the typical usage rate to harder a bar up a bit (I realize this will vary some due to how hard you want but a starting range would be great)?
> 
> Is this recipe superfatted? If so and you do the two step process as DeeAnna mentioned none of the coconut oil will be left in the superfat portion correct?
> 
> I haven't made a soap yet, but I'm going to hopefully today. This shave soap will not be my first, but I'm going to after I feel more comfortable with what's going on in the process.
> 
> Thanks for the post Songwind and for all of the followups everyone who has been involved.
> 
> InNae



Welcome! I've been making soap for a year and traditional shaving for about two.

Actually, the KOH used by soapers is in the form of flakes or beads, and around 90% pure. So the 45% solution would not be strong enough. Of course, you could do the math and figure out the actual weight of KOH per mL and use that solution. Just be aware that it's not 1:1 with the values given by a lye calculator.

The water does seem to evaporate out during the curing process. I've experimented with a few different lye concentrations and it doesn't seem to make a big difference in the end product if you let it cure. However, I am intentionally aiming for a soft soap, because that's the kind that I like, so I don't give my shave soaps a long cure. I have settled on a 30% solution (by combined weight - I use a mix of NaOH and KOH) when I make my shave soaps.

I hope you enjoy soaping as much as I have. I suggest starting with a simple 1- to 3-oil recipe (castille or bastile are a good choice) for your first try. Hard to mess up, and very useful around the house.


----------



## InNae

songwind said:


> Welcome! I've been making soap for a year and traditional shaving for about two.
> 
> Actually, the KOH used by soapers is in the form of flakes or beads, and around 90% pure. So the 45% solution would not be strong enough. Of course, you could do the math and figure out the actual weight of KOH per mL and use that solution. Just be aware that it's not 1:1 with the values given by a lye calculator.
> 
> The water does seem to evaporate out during the curing process. I've experimented with a few different lye concentrations and it doesn't seem to make a big difference in the end product if you let it cure. However, I am intentionally aiming for a soft soap, because that's the kind that I like, so I don't give my shave soaps a long cure. I have settled on a 30% solution (by combined weight - I use a mix of NaOH and KOH) when I make my shave soaps.
> 
> I hope you enjoy soaping as much as I have. I suggest starting with a simple 1- to 3-oil recipe (castille or bastile are a good choice) for your first try. Hard to mess up, and very useful around the house.



I guess I wasn't too clear with my question, but you did end up answering it in the second part. I understand that I would need to do some math to figure out the amount of the 45% solution that I would need instead of the 90% solid form. You answered my question in the second part which was about the lye concentration more than anything. 

I am in the process of making a recipe that I found right now. It's going ok so far, but the whole shaving soap thing really has me most interested. 

Thanks for the welcome,
InNae


----------



## songwind

InNae said:


> I am in the process of making a recipe that I found right now. It's going ok so far, but the whole shaving soap thing really has me most interested.



That's what got me interested at first, two, but now I'm trying mica samplers and watching videos about swirling techniques.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...Is this recipe superfatted? If so and you do the two step process as DeeAnna mentioned none of the coconut oil will be left in the superfat portion correct? ..."

Yes, it's superfatted. The saponification reaction is not complete at trace, so it is very likely that part of the superfat IS coconut, not just stearic.


----------



## shunt2011

Okay, I have made the original recipe with KOH numerous times with a couple tweaks (added Shea and SL)  and it has been a huge hit.  I took a couple samples into a local shave shop and they loved it and want to sell it. I have been able to glop it into a 3" PVC pipe and when cooled put it in the freezer then my husband made the pipe where he connects an air hose and it pops right out and I am able to slice it after a day.  However, I also put some in jars and I like that process as it's much easier.  I have taken the slices and shrink wrapped them and will sell them as a refill for the jars.


----------



## songwind

shunt2011 said:


> Okay, I have made the original recipe with KOH numerous times with a couple tweaks (added Shea and SL)  and it has been a huge hit.  I took a couple samples into a local shave shop and they loved it and want to sell it. I have been able to glop it into a 3" PVC pipe and when cooled put it in the freezer then my husband made the pipe where he connects an air hose and it pops right out and I am able to slice it after a day.  However, I also put some in jars and I like that process as it's much easier.  I have taken the slices and shrink wrapped them and will sell them as a refill for the jars.



Sounds great. I went back and forth on pucks vs. tubs, myself.

Out of curiosity, was your local shave shop Maggard Razors, by chance?


----------



## DeeAnna

I knead the paste by hand until it is a smooth, consistent texture and form it into a log shape. Roll the log in parchment paper -- something that lets the soap breathe but keeps it clean. After letting it dry for a week or so, I cut it into pucks. It might not be quite as pretty as putting it into a PVC pipe, but it works.


----------



## Kyle 3 Pass

Hi everyone,

I am pondering whether I want to use a combo of KOH/NaOH or just use KOH and add sodium lactate to get my desired shave soap hardness.  If I use KOH only and add Sodium Lactate at 3-5%, will my soap get as hard as a 60/40 or 70/30 of a KOH/NaOH combo?  Just curious before I go and buy supplies.  

Thanks for any help!  


Kyle


----------



## Lin

Higher amounts of sodium lactate result in a softer/more flexible Soap and not a harder one.  Usually 1-2 % is used for hardening,  and 3% will soften.  I believe Derpina bubbles used only 2% once though and still got a soft rubbery Soap as a result.


----------



## InNae

songwind said:


> That's what got me interested at first, two, but now I'm trying mica samplers and watching videos about swirling techniques.



Yeah... That may be me too. It's chemistry that I can do at home. 

InNae


----------



## Lbrown123

Very nice!


----------



## ocean_soul

So I decided to take another crack at this recipe and I cooked up a batch of this soap earlier this week.  This time I used beer, added some silk, sodium lactate and clay to the mix.  Using beer as my liquid won't cause problems further down the road, will it?  I hope not!

Anyhow, I'm fairly sure I didn't I cooked my soap long enough...It passed the zap test but a day after unmolding and slicing up my soap all the bars are lightly covered in soda ash, eeks!  I've never had that happen to hot process soaps before so I'm thinking about grating my soap down and cooking it again.  I just hope I don't kill the fragrance when I do that.  Right now the combination of beer and essential oils seems to have produced a scent that reminds me of an old fashioned ice cream parlor & soda fountain.       

Any ideas?  Or does it sound like reasonable plan?  Next time, I am totally cooking my soap longer!


----------



## FlybyStardancer

I wouldn't bother rebatching. It'll probably look worse if you rebatch.  Undercooked HP isn't really a problem with a standard cure time. It's just somewhere in between CP and HP.


----------



## DeeAnna

^^^ what FlyBy said. IMO, soda ash is not an issue that warrants rebatching. I only cook this recipe somewhere between 15 and 30 minutes and it's fine.


----------



## Lin

Ditto to the above comments. What about the soda ash makes you want to rebatch? If its appearance you'll end up worse after rebatching.


----------



## Lindy

Kyle 3 Pass said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am pondering whether I want to use a combo of KOH/NaOH or just use KOH and add sodium lactate to get my desired shave soap hardness. If I use KOH only and add Sodium Lactate at 3-5%, will my soap get as hard as a 60/40 or 70/30 of a KOH/NaOH combo? Just curious before I go and buy supplies.
> 
> Thanks for any help!
> 
> 
> Kyle



Hi Kyle,

 It won't get as hard as if you used the combination.


----------



## ocean_soul

Thanks FlybyStardancer (I love your Jazz icon!), DeeAnna and Lin for the feedback.  It's not that I think the appearance of soda ash ruins the soap...it's just that I've never had soda ash form on a HP soap before, makes me worried I did it wrong, is all.  But I'll just leave it as it is and give it some extra cure time.


----------



## kanutta

I'm so thrilled to find this tread! My son is a passionate wet shaver and spends a lot of money on shaving soaps, creams and what have you. I have been soaping for a year, mostly HP, but couldn't make shaving soaps as it is impossible to get KOH in small quantities in Norway. NAOH on the other hand you can buy everuwhere. But, I was in Barcelona some weeks ago, and ran into a chemist shop so I finally got a couple of pounds! Thank you everyone that has contributed to this thread. Good shaving soaps recipes, well any cream soaps recipes, are hard to find. It was fun to see the Fitjar brand mentioned in this tread, by Mark the Box guy. It's Norwegian, and I was suprised that anyone had heard of it outside Norway.  I'm planning on packaging this soap in a glass bail jar, will that be ok? I don't want to waste the expensive e.o.'s or f.oils, they will disappear if not covered.


----------



## songwind

Make sure it's a low, wide jar and you should be fine. Narrower jars get obnoxious when loading the brush.

And Fitjar is fairly well regarded on the forums.


----------



## Lindy

Agreed Fitjar is a well known and well respected shave soap.


----------



## kanutta

I made the soap today, will let it sit until tomorrow before I test it. I'm not sure which strength of KOH I got, it doesn't say, but it seems like the flakes for soapers are only 90 % pure KOH. I didn't take the chance so I calculated with 100% pure KOH to avoid a harsh and lye heavy soap. I see that the orignal recipe is calculated with 100 % pure KOH and superfatted 5 %. But it might in fact be superfatted more than that if we all have 90 % pure KOH? I got confused when I saw that Soapcalc has a choice for 90 % KOH. More superfat usually means less foam and bubbles, so I would like to get it right


----------



## FlybyStardancer

KOH flakes are 90% pure. It's pretty much impossible to get KOH to 100% purity.

It was added because of LS-makers' complaints that SoapCalc's formula didn't take into account the impurities in lye. I agree, it's confusing having two options there.


----------



## kanutta

Ok, thank you. Then the original recipe has around 15 % superfat, which is not a bad thing if the soap lathers well. It's kinder to skin. I will try to formulate with 8 % superfat and see how that lathers up.


----------



## DeeAnna

I don't figure my recipes assuming KOH is 100% pure. My supplier's analysis is 92% purity, so that's the number I'm using along with 5% superfat. I don't agree with 15% superfat, intentional or otherwise. A high superfat cuts the lather, softens the soap (and that is already a concern with this recipe), and may be a trigger for rancidity.


----------



## songwind

At the time that I made my first soap I didn't know about the purity issue. Having bought my KOH second hand, it didn't include the numbers, either.

By the time I knew about it, I had already made the soap, liked the performance, and didn't mess with it afterward.

Just did the math, and I think my current formulation ends up about 10% superfat.


----------



## DeeAnna

That's fair reasoning, Songwind, and I don't mean to downplay the success of a recipe that is working well for you. I just didn't want people reading this thread to assume that everyone is using a high superfat.


----------



## songwind

DeeAnna said:


> That's fair reasoning, Songwind, and I don't mean to downplay the success of a recipe that is working well for you. I just didn't want people reading this thread to assume that everyone is using a high superfat.



I agree totally. That's also why I wanted to put the story of how it ended up that high out there.

Once I started added NaOH and the superfat went down, the performance increased - so I think that high superfat was inhibiting the lather a bit.


----------



## kanutta

Thank you all for the clarification, I really appreciate it. I have a limitied quantity of KOH to play with, and I can't travel to Barcelona that often to get it  That would be some expensive shaving soap! I have another batch cooking right now, better go watch it. It will be a nice surprise for my son who long wanted me to make some for him !


----------



## Nikkor

DeeAnna said:


> Another way to figure the lye is to use your favorite soap recipe calculator. Calculate the exact same soap recipe twice, but use NaOH as the lye for the first version and KOH as the lye for the second version.
> 
> For the first version, the recipe calculator will tell you how much NaOH that you would need to use if you wanted NaOH as ALL of the lye. In the second version, it will tell you how much KOH you would need to use if KOH was ALL of the lye.
> 
> Since you want a mixture of 15% NaOH and 85% KOH for the recipe, multiply the NaOH weight times 0.15. And multiply the KOH weight times 0.85. That will give you the correct weights of each lye to mix together to make the recipe with 15% NaOH and 85% KOH.
> 
> Hope this helps.



I think I understand how to calculate the lye (NaOH & KOH) mixture but I have a couple of questions. 

One concerns the amount of water to use. For the sake of easy math I'll just use these numbers as an example;
If at 15% NaOH the recipe called for 10g and I wanted to use a 1 to 3 lye/water ratio I would use 30g water? For the KOH at 85% and the recipe called for 70g and using the same 1-3 lye/water ratio I would use 210g water? So the total water would be 240g? Remember this is a hypothetical example of measures. 

My next question is do I mix both NaOH and KOH at the same time in the total amount of water? In my above example it would be adding 80g of the lye blend to 240g of water. Is this correct?

I'm not yet ready to try this recipe but I am a shaver that uses shave creams/soaps and a DE razor. I still have a number of creams and a puck or two that I have purchased to use up. At some point I would like to try to make my own but I'm nowhere near ready, just trying to wrap my head around this whole thing.


----------



## FlybyStardancer

From the instructions I've seen, you dissolve the NaOH first, and once that's dissolved (doesn't have to be clear, just no more grains/flakes), that's when you add the KOH.


----------



## songwind

Nikkor said:


> I think I understand how to calculate the lye (NaOH & KOH) mixture but I have a couple of questions.
> 
> One concerns the amount of water to use. For the sake of easy math I'll just use these numbers as an example;
> If at 15% NaOH the recipe called for 10g and I wanted to use a 1 to 3 lye/water ratio I would use 30g water? For the KOH at 85% and the recipe called for 70g and using the same 1-3 lye/water ratio I would use 210g water? So the total water would be 240g? Remember this is a hypothetical example of measures.
> 
> My next question is do I mix both NaOH and KOH at the same time in the total amount of water? In my above example it would be adding 80g of the lye blend to 240g of water. Is this correct?



Your water example looks right to me. My lye measuring vessel isn't big enough to hold both types, so I measure separately, but I pour both into the water then stir until dissolved. There's no need to dissolve them separately.


----------



## Nikkor

songwind said:


> Your water example looks right to me. My lye measuring vessel isn't big enough to hold both types, so I measure separately, but I pour both into the water then stir until dissolved. There's no need to dissolve them separately.



Thank you for the clarification songwind! Good to know I'm on the right track.


----------



## Lindy

I measure my the NaOH & KOH together then add them together....


----------



## InNae

*Peppermint shave soap*

So I made it... 52% stearic / 48% coconut with some glycerin.  For my little twist I made it with peppermint tea and peppermint essential oil. It had a hit of a cooling effect and shaved really well. After the shave my face felt dry. I'm going to try the second jar that I made because I'm not sure all of the glycerin got evenly distributed. Overall, I'm pretty happy with it for a first try.

InNae


----------



## grayceworks

How much glycerin did you use ppo? I used 3tbs ppo in mine, and reduced the stearic to 48% and reduced the coconut to about 35% coconut added shea butter. I still find it a tad drying, but i have dry skin anyhow -- but hubby loves it and it's not drying at all for him. It gets better and milder and even more lather if possible after a few weeks cure time. 

Also, i just dumped the glycerin right in with everything else, so i know it got distributed well.


----------



## InNae

grayceworks said:


> How much glycerin did you use ppo? I used 3tbs ppo in mine, and reduced the stearic to 48% and reduced the coconut to about 35% coconut added shea butter. I still find it a tad drying, but i have dry skin anyhow -- but hubby loves it and it's not drying at all for him. It gets better and milder and even more lather if possible after a few weeks cure time.
> 
> Also, i just dumped the glycerin right in with everything else, so i know it got distributed well.



I used the ratio that was used before... I scaled my batch down and I'm a chemist so I do everything in grams, but the ratio was the same as was originally posted. Next time I will add the glycerine with the other oils. 

Did you add the shea butter with the other oils or did you add it after the lye? I'm going to add Shea Butter. I usually put lotion on after shaving with any shaving soap, but it was more a comfort thing than my skin drying out. With this it is a necessity.

 I really like the peppermint EO with it though and may add some menthol. The cooling I get from the peppermint feels really good, but I would like more and don't really want to much more peppermint. 

InNae


----------



## newbie

My first batch of this firmed up well enough to successfully have bars. They are soft, like firm putty, but can most definitely hold a bar shape. They are only about 8 days old so they should firm up a little more, if anything. I made it again today with a 10% sf instead of the 15%sf I ended up with the first time (I didn't check the box for 90% KOH so SF was higher) and it is without question "bar-able". Not hard bars but they will hold their shape well. I used only KOH. This is today's batch.


----------



## Belinda02

Made this yesterday using Songwind's recipe.   The sandalwood EO turned out to be mostly jobo oil os not much scent. DH used it today.  He says it is the best he has ever used.  He likes his cheap wood bowl. I offered to throw out his old soap and scoop in the new.  He said H yes.  Thanks, this is a clear win.


----------



## InNae

I've been using my shaving soap based on Songwinds recipe of and on for a couple of weeks now. The shave is getting better. The first couple of times, it was really drying, but it's getting much better. When I make it again, I will probably add some shea butter or something for a bit of a moisturizing effect. I used peppermint tea in place of water and peppermint EO. It has a nice cooling effect which I really like. Thanks again Songwind. 

InNae


----------



## Belinda02

I did add about 4 gr of Shea butter. All I had and seems to work along with the glycerin and little jobo.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Inspiring pics, Newbie.  I have KOH, so I am sorely tempted.  I have a bowl full of bought soap, but I might just take it out of the bowl and store it somewhere


----------



## songwind

grayceworks said:


> Also, i just dumped the glycerin right in with everything else, so i know it got distributed well.



I tried this on Saturday. Everything immediately became the consistency of lumpy mashed potatoes. Seemed to turn out okay in the end, though.


----------



## shunt2011

I love songwinds recipe.  I have tweaked it and added some Shea and Castor and it's fantastic.  I have gotten nothing but raves.   I love the lather too.  I just make it in a ball and use it on my legs.


----------



## cleonm

*Small test batch*

I want to try the small test batch Songwind made at the beginning of this thread, but I'm new to soap making and had a question. I see the percentages of oil and the total 8oz batch size in the first comment, but how much lye do you add? Sorry if this is obvious. I am just slightly lost.


----------



## songwind

cleonm said:


> I want to try the small test batch Songwind made at the beginning of this thread, but I'm new to soap making and had a question. I see the percentages of oil and the total 8oz batch size in the first comment, but how much lye do you add? Sorry if this is obvious. I am just slightly lost.



I didn't put in the amount of lye in so you have to run it through a soap calculator. I would hate to be responsible for someone getting a lye burn because I made a typo.


----------



## cleonm

songwind said:


> I didn't put in the amount of lye in so you have to run it through a soap calculator. I would hate to be responsible for someone getting a lye burn because I made a typo.



I didn't view the recipe and see the amount. Sorry! 

BTW, I'm hoping to order some of your soaps soon Songwind. I've heard amazing things about it.


----------



## shunt2011

I agree, just run it through a soap calc to get the accurate measurements for whatever size batch you are making.   I add the Glycerine after the cook before I add fragrance.


----------



## songwind

cleonm said:


> I didn't view the recipe and see the amount. Sorry!
> 
> BTW, I'm hoping to order some of your soaps soon Songwind. I've heard amazing things about it.



Thanks! I hope you enjoy them. I just added some inventory in Lavender Lizard and Dapper Dragon scents today.


----------



## InNae

Have any of you used menthol in your shave soaps? I'm wondering where I should start percentage wise. I'm just looking for a slight cooling effect. Any thouhhts would be appreciated.

InNae


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

InNae said:


> Have any of you used menthol in your shave soaps? I'm wondering where I should start percentage wise. I'm just looking for a slight cooling effect. Any thouhhts would be appreciated.
> 
> InNae


 
Menthol Crystals? Some people use about 6 grams to 16 oz of product, so not large amounts.

ETA - when I make mine, I wish I could make it smell like the Arko stick.  Anyone know of a dupe of that or how to get that scent?  Not grating a urinal cake in to it, before that suggestion comes.......................


----------



## songwind

Isn't Arko just citronella?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Seems to be the only scent oil.  I'll use mine again tomorrow and see what my nose thinks


----------



## Mellifera

Just want to add to this thread: I'm on version 3, and really like all the versions I've done so far. I tried the basic version from the initial posts, then jazzed it up with cocoa butter and jojoba, and now I'm playing with adding propolis (I am a beekeeper, after all!) and what that might bring to the mix. Thanks so much to Songwind and all the other generous soapers who shared their experience! This is great!


----------



## songwind

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Seems to be the only scent oil.  I'll use mine again tomorrow and see what my nose thinks



Did you ever try this?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I just did - I have Lemongrass EO and it is slightly different.  The Arko uses Citronella, of course, but it also seems to have a slightly chemical undertone.  Not sure if that would come from the Citronella or just from the soapy smell. 

When I make the shaving soap, I'll give it a go with the Lemongrass and see what we get


----------



## songwind

Very cool. I have some lemongrass EO as well, was considering how best to use it.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

The Admirable Lady prefers the Lavender and Sandalwood from Taylor's of Bond Street, but there is something about the Arko scent that I just love.


----------



## songwind

Sandalwood and lavender are two of my favorites, too. In fact, I just added a Sandalwood to Dapper Dragon last week.


----------



## reinbeau

This thread has been a very enlightening read!  I recently made a shaving soap from Debbie Thomas' blog and have had some good reviews of the soap.  Did it in a Pringle's can with a liner, it came out easily the next day and was cuttable into pucks.  I'm planning on making more for Father's Day gift sets for a few people who want them.  I am so happy I found this thread, the education contained within it is priceless!



Mellifera said:


> Just want to add to this thread: I'm on version 3, and really like all the versions I've done so far. I tried the basic version from the initial posts, then jazzed it up with cocoa butter and jojoba, and now I'm playing with adding propolis (I am a beekeeper, after all!) and what that might bring to the mix. Thanks so much to Songwind and all the other generous soapers who shared their experience! This is great!


I'd be very interested to hear how you work the propolis in - I am a beek also and am always looking for new ways to use products from the hive


----------



## Mellifera

There are two ways to work it in: you can use an oil that you've steeped propolis in, much like an herb. I always keep some EVOO and propolis going, to use in various things. The other way is to dissolve it in high proof alcohol, then strain. The dissolved propolis/alcohol mixture can be used in things like liquid soap, where alcohol is ok, and will evaporate.

Since it has anti-microbial properties, it may help with that aspect of things, but of course I never make that claim. Resin (which is what it is--souped up resin) brings other things, like body to liquid soap and the like. Will it make the shaving soap better? I don't know, but my initial testing says it doesn't make it worse!


----------



## reinbeau

Mellifera said:


> There are two ways to work it in: you can use an oil that you've steeped propolis in, much like an herb. I always keep some EVOO and propolis going, to use in various things. The other way is to dissolve it in high proof alcohol, then strain. The dissolved propolis/alcohol mixture can be used in things like liquid soap, where alcohol is ok, and will evaporate.
> 
> Since it has anti-microbial properties, it may help with that aspect of things, but of course I never make that claim. Resin (which is what it is--souped up resin) brings other things, like body to liquid soap and the like. Will it make the shaving soap better? I don't know, but my initial testing says it doesn't make it worse!


Excellent.  So, powder the propolis (after freezing) and infuse it in the OO - how much would you suggest PPO?  I have about two ounces of it I've been saving to make tinctures with, I just need the Everclear which means a road trip.....


----------



## virgs1

*My first shaving soap is a success*

Hi, I am new to this soaping forum. I really don't understand the recipe you posted at all. How much KOH did you use? Thanks,
virgs1


----------



## DeeAnna

Virgs1 -- If you are talking about Songwind's original post: 

"...I did a small batch (8 oz). 52% stearic acid, 48% coconut oil, saponified with KOH. I added 1.5 tablespoons of glycerin after it was done cooking, along with 1/4 oz of essential oils: 2/3 lemon & bergamot, 1/3 rosemary...."

...he didn't say how much KOH he used, because that is something that a good soaper will determine on his or her own. 

Do you use a soap recipe calculator to doublecheck your recipes? If not, here is one to check out: http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp There are other good calculators out there; SoapCalc is just one of the more popular ones.

Choose a recipe size, enter the percentages of the fats, choose the type of lye (KOH), choose the lye solution concentration, and choose the superfat .... and you'll get the amount of KOH needed. For a shaving soap, the superfat is usually on the medium to lower side -- I think 3% to 5% is pretty common, maybe as high as 8%.


----------



## Mellifera

reinbeau said:


> Excellent.  So, powder the propolis (after freezing) and infuse it in the OO - how much would you suggest PPO?  I have about two ounces of it I've been saving to make tinctures with, I just need the Everclear which means a road trip.....



I do a 10-30% solution in both oil and Everclear--usually I go for the stronger solution, because you can always dilute.


----------



## GriffinRidgeFarm

I want to try this recipe, but I have a couple of questions. All of my soaps are made with goat's milk and/or beer, is it possible to use pottasium hydroxide with those? Also, what does the added glycerin do?


----------



## songwind

I don't see any reason you can't use KOH with milk or beer.

The glycerin boosts the lather a bit, and acts as a humectant.

I tried a batch without it, and it worked fine. But I thought it wasn't quite as nice on the skin, so I left it in my final formula.


----------



## DeeAnna

The glycerin might also help to stabilize the lather somewhat. But I add glycerin pretty much for the same reason as Eric -- skin conditioning and soothing.


----------



## Seawolfe

I tried this recipe this weekend as a 40% NaOH and 60% KOH and went through hours of research and calculations. Decided to use this to try out 4 masculine scents (Eucalyptus, tea tree & peppermint, bay rum & BB tobacco, and cedar) and roll them out refridgerator cookie style like DeAnna suggested.

But I screwed up with the clay. I've only ever used clay in cold process soap, and I make a slurry and add it at thin trace and stick blend it in a little more. I need to stop doing that. I need to add it to the lye water.

Anyways I added the clay slurry to the already traced and too sticky to stick blend mixture and was never able to blend it in completely, so I have little blob dots of clay in my shaving soap!! Bleh.

I am SO disappointed, because they would have been great without this messup!! The pucks are kinda soft, yet still firm enough to wrap up on their own. Even though its way early I tried a bit to shave my legs and they are very nice and slippery. Too early to tell about lather I think. But I think those clay bits are gonna be a deal breaker for face shaving. Maybe Ill give them to a friend of mine with a dive boat as wetsuit lubricants or something...

Next time clay in the lye water!! Good thing I only make 2 lb batches 

Edit to add: Hubby did just lather test some with his brush and it does have a fluffy lather for such a young soap, so maybe its not a total loss.


----------



## SomethingGoodAustin

GriffinRidgeFarm said:


> I want to try this recipe, but I have a couple of questions. All of my soaps are made with goat's milk and/or beer, is it possible to use pottasium hydroxide with those? Also, what does the added glycerin do?



I use 50/50 KOH and NaOH in mine, goat's milk as the liquid and a combination of oat powder and bentonite clay, blended into the oils with the stick blender.  I've had good results so far--or at least no problems caused by the goat's milk.

The added glycerin adds lubrication and conditioning. Most people add some percentage of glycerin, usually 10% at minimum (I just made a batch with 20% glycerin + honey, and am waiting for the soap to cure a couple days more before I test it to see whether a higher amount adds any benefit).

************


----------



## SomethingGoodAustin

Seawolfe said:


> Edit to add: Hubby did just lather test some with his brush and it does have a fluffy lather for such a young soap, so maybe its not a total loss.



One of the reasons I love this formula is that it is ready so quickly.  Of course, all soap is better with cure, but this one lathers well and has great glide almost right off the bat.  It's also very versatile--like a little black dress, you can dress it up with additives and fancy oils or dress it down and keep it original recipe-style simple, and it is uniformly excellent.  Thanks so much, Songwind, for sharing this wonderful formula with us!


----------



## songwind

The gent who made the original post about this on Badger & Blade that got me started sells his soaps, too. LA Shaving Soap Company gets very positive reviews, if you care to check them out.


----------



## Kismet

I have read this thread through several times, and today, I finally got the courage to try this soap, a present for my brother who shaves with a straight razor.  I've only made about four soaps, hot and cold process, but this was the first time I used KOH.  I used 400 grams oil (52% stearic acid, 48% Coconut Oil), 57 g of glycerin (30% of CO weight).  I heated the CO separately from the stearic acid, added the 25% KOH solution to the CO, then added the stearic acid.  After the stearic acid was added, the soap traced really fast.  I think it only cooked for 10 or fifteen minutes.  Then, I added the glycerin and it was really hard to stir.  I actually ended up putting on rubber gloves and mixing it by hand.  I wanted to make sure that the glycerin was well mixed in.  Finally, I added some EO for fragrance.  I kneaded it for a long time.  Then I patted it into two glass containers that have a mouth the right size for dabbing with a brush.  I did taste it to see if it zapped, but it seemed okay.

Should I now let it just set for awhile to make sure that it is completely saponified?  I guess I will only know if it's good shaving soap when he tries it out.

I really enjoy this forum - I have learned so much.


----------



## songwind

Kismet said:


> Should I now let it just set for awhile to make sure that it is completely saponified?  I guess I will only know if it's good shaving soap when he tries it out.



If it passed zap, it's fine to shave with.

It will, however, improve a bit with age. My personal experience has been that the KOH soap does so less than when there's some NaOH in the mix. And it should make a fine lather right away.


----------



## Shalisk

It makes me miss my straight razor so much  Looks amazing, keep up the awsome work!


----------



## Belinda02

Every time my DH shaves he comments on how nice the soap works. At first I thought he was humoring me but now I know he means it.   I've used the soap and it is nice. Nice lather, smooth almost silky slide. May have to get me a brush and bowl.


----------



## Stacie

DeeAnna, I read your comment about stearic acid not being meltable in the microwave right after I finished doing just that. Is there something wrong with doing it that way that I should be aware of?


----------



## DeeAnna

I microwaved the heck out of my stearic a time or two. It showed no signs of melting even after I'd microwaved it on high far longer than I was comfortable with. I didn't want to get into trouble by overheating it, so I decided on the safer route of melting it in a double boiler. 

I don't know at what temp stearic will degrade, but I do know you can get into trouble by melting beeswax in the microwave -- it doesn't melt, it doesn't melt, then all of a sudden it melts and is hot enough to be at its smoke point. 

If microwaving works for you, it works for you!


----------



## guygarr

Stearic acid melts at about 156 degrees f . It will melt in a crock pot on high in a few minutes .


----------



## songwind

guygarr said:


> Stearic acid melts at about 156 degrees f . It will melt in a crock pot on high in a few minutes .



Depends on how much you have. If it's enough (or part of a big enough load of oils) it can take quite a while.


----------



## DeeAnna

I had a thought about my stearic acid in the microwave experience -- When I was trying to melt it in the microwave, my guess is the stearic probably did not have much moisture in it. Water content (or in this case, lack of water) will greatly affect the rate of heating in a microwave.

"...Stearic acid ... will melt in a crock pot on high in a few minutes . ..."

A crock pot is the rough equivalent of my double boiler. I don't have a crock pot small enough that will work well for the 100 grams or so of stearic that I typically want to melt. A canning jar in a small saucepan of hot water fits the bill much better for me. And the jar is much easier to pour from and to clean later.

"...melts at about 156 degrees f..."

Yes, you are correct, and most fats melt at temps considerably below that. I don't like to overheat my soaping fats, so I melt my stearic separately.


----------



## Stacie

I melted 4.4 oz stearic acid by itself in a bowl in the microwave one minute at a time. I think it took about 6 min. Since I was already using the crock pot for the CO and lye, per the two step method DeeAnna recommended, I thought microwaving would be easiest. I have no double boiler and hadn't thought of the jar in the pot of water scenario. It did take a few minutes for the stearic acid to look like anything was happening in the microwave. One minute increments seemed to be adequate to prevent anything getting away from me.

On another note, I have some dark spots in my soap that I think must be the FO that didn't mix well. It seemed fairly challenging to mix in the glycerin and FO after the cooking. It was just so thick. Any tips there?

It's been 24 hours and my soap is relatively hard. It gives a little if I push fairly firmly with my finger. I used 75/25 KOH/NaOH. I think this is perfect for me. No need to buy extra containers. I'm now resisting harassing the fiancé about when he might get around to shaving next. Hints have been dropped.


----------



## songwind

Stacie said:


> On another note, I have some dark spots in my soap that I think must be the FO that didn't mix well. It seemed fairly challenging to mix in the glycerin and FO after the cooking. It was just so thick. Any tips there?



I have had the same issue, particularly when I'm using a larger percentage of EO and let the soap cool off more.

Here are the things that I have found that help:

1. Add the glycerin right away while the soap is still hot. Makes it easier to add, and then having the glycerin in it will make it easier to stir for the FO.

2. I started using sodium lactate. It makes for easier/smoother molding, and also makes the after-cook phase easier.


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## Stacie

I did add both glycerine and FO just as soon as it was done cooking, so still quite hot. I'll order some sodium lactate and see how that goes. I had maxed out my baby crock pot with the batch (it puffed up a little during cooking), so perhaps I should have transferred to a larger bowl for the stirring to give more room to maneuver.


----------



## Stacie

Hard to know how well the glycerin mixed in since it is clear....


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## songwind

Yes, having extra room does help.

The way I determine that it's fully mixed is to mix until it looks uniform.

You could also try using a hand mixer on low. I'm going to try that with my next batch.


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## LBussy

songwind said:


> Add the glycerin right away while the soap is still hot. Makes it easier to add, and then having the glycerin in it will make it easier to stir for the FO.


I added the glycerin with the oils, I thought that would be the easiest and it's worked out well.  Of course I've not tried it any other way.  It's not going to evaporate and there's glycerin coming out at saponification anyway.



> I started using sodium lactate. It makes for easier/smoother molding, and also makes the after-cook phase easier.


Read about a lot of people using that but I'n unclear what exactly it does.  Can you explain for me please?


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## DeeAnna

"...It seemed fairly challenging to mix in the glycerin and FO after the cooking...."

Yep, it sure is. I've used my hands to knead it like dough. Or I've used my big KitchenAid mixer with the standard paddle blade on low speed. I think Eric (songwind) uses his mixer too.

"... added the glycerin with the oils..."

Yep, that works too. I don't think there's any magic to adding it after saponification. Fragrance is another story.


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## songwind

LBussy said:


> I added the glycerin with the oils, I thought that would be the easiest and it's worked out well.  Of course I've not tried it any other way.  It's not going to evaporate and there's glycerin coming out at saponification anyway.



I tried it this way, too, and it worked fine. It seemed to get lumpy/stiff faster, which made it a bit harder to get the oils and lye thoroughly mixed, but it wasn't a big deal.




> Read about a lot of people using that but I'n unclear what exactly it does.  Can you explain for me please?



It is supposed to make for a slightly harder bar and easier unmolding. I haven't noticed that at the concentration I'm using (about 1%), but in hot process it makes the goop a bit looser, so it's easier get into molds, or to swirl.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

songwind said:


> ...................It is supposed to make for a slightly harder bar and easier unmolding. I haven't noticed that at the concentration I'm using (about 1%), but in hot process it makes the goop a bit looser, so it's easier get into molds, or to swirl.


 
Aye, SL in hot process makes the lumpy mass more of a fluid lumpy mass - it was so strange when I first used it, I wasn't sure if it was finished cooking as it wasn't like mash potatoes, but I am used to it now.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Another question on this recipe - has anyone tried it with cold water shaving or just hot water? I usually shave with cold water but not all soaps can handle it.  My Taylor's soap is fine, but Arko just can't do it cold so I can only use that one when I shave hot.


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## Stacie

While I haven't used it for shaving, it did lather perfectly well for me with cold water. I'm still waiting for the fiancé to shave with it. It turned out wonderfully from what I can tell, just playing with the lather. It has great slip, lathered fairly easily, and the lather just hangs out for ages. We'll see if the fiancé thinks it could use some type of butter in the next round. The aftershave I make him might already make up for a small amount of drying, though. Thanks to all who contributed to the recipe, tweaks, and explanations on this thread. Not only do I have a great shave soap recipe to play with, but I'm smarter than I was before. </end gush>


----------



## LBussy

Maybe the experienced soapers can help me here.  I have been tweaking a recipe based on this and I find that the lather explodes fairly quickly.  I'd like to tone it down a bit to allow the soap to load a little more on the brush before I move it to the bowl to later.  Would this mean cutting the coconut in favor of the stearic?


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## DeeAnna

Well, stearic doesn't lather well, but what lather it makes is dense/creamy. Coconut lathers really well, but what lather it makes is loose/fluffy. If by "explode" you mean the lather is not dense enough to suit your needs, then yes I'd think more stearic would be a good direction to go. I suspect Eric or another shaver/soaper will know more about what you mean, so maybe they can confirm or suggest a better route to go.


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## wetshavingproducts

LBussy said:


> Maybe the experienced soapers can help me here.  I have been tweaking a recipe based on this and I find that the lather explodes fairly quickly.  I'd like to tone it down a bit to allow the soap to load a little more on the brush before I move it to the bowl to later.  Would this mean cutting the coconut in favor of the stearic?



That or add a third oil into the mix to cut into the coconut oil.


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## LBussy

DeeAnna said:


> Well, stearic doesn't lather well, but what lather it makes is dense/creamy. Coconut lathers really well, but what lather it makes is loose/fluffy. If by "explode" you mean the lather is not dense enough to suit your needs, then yes I'd think more stearic would be a good direction to go. I suspect Eric or another shaver/soaper will know more about what you mean, so maybe they can confirm or suggest a better route to go.


That's it exactly.  It's not that it's not good lather, I'd just prefer it a little denser. 



wetshavingproducts said:


> That or add a third oil into the mix to cut into the coconut oil.


Tallow would seem to be the obvious choice.  I may call the butcher and see what I can score.

Thanks folks.


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## songwind

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Another question on this recipe - has anyone tried it with cold water shaving or just hot water? I usually shave with cold water but not all soaps can handle it.  My Taylor's soap is fine, but Arko just can't do it cold so I can only use that one when I shave hot.



I've used it cold, it's not a problem. I've also used it with a hot scuttle. It deflates a little bit between passes so you want to swirl it with the brush again, but that seems to be universal.


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## songwind

That initial looser lather settles down just fine with continued application of the brush. What I usually do is just keep loading anyway, scooping the loose lather up w/ the brush or a finger and putting it back in the action.



			
				LBussy said:
			
		

> Tallow would seem to be the obvious choice. I may call the butcher and see what I can score.



If your experience is anything like mine, you might find it easier to pick up some lard from the grocery store. No one around me sells tallow. 

Shea, cocoa or kokum butters are also good 3rd oils for shaving soaps.


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## LBussy

songwind said:


> That initial looser lather settles down just fine with continued application of the brush. What I usually do is just keep loading anyway, scooping the loose lather up w/ the brush or a finger and putting it back in the action.


Yes, I did notice that as well.  It's a great soap, I just wan to tweak a bit. 



> If your experience is anything like mine, you might find it easier to pick up some lard from the grocery store. No one around me sells tallow.


I'm planning to render some down ... I started another thread asking a couple questions of those who might know.



> Shea, cocoa or kokum butters are also good 3rd oils for shaving soaps.


I have a little lanolin and shea in this now.  I'm not sure I want to add any more of those so tallow it is.

I did a little searching and it looks like lard and butterfat a have similar properties to tallow.  I was surprised about the butterfat but I guess that makes sense.  Palm oil seems to be closest on the vegetarian side.


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## DeeAnna

I would be wary of using butterfat as a sub for tallow or lard. What the soap calcs don't consider is the very short chain fatty acids such as butyric, capric, and caprylic. Butterfat (aka milkfat and its very close relative ghee) has all three of those, which will increase the solubility and fluffy lather above what the soap calcs suggest. Also butyric soap has a distinctive cheese/bread/beery odor that can be off-putting unless you are prepared to fragrance the product appropriately. I don't mind it in a bath soap, but if I was a guy, even I might not care for the butyric scent right under my nose for the time needed to shave.


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## LBussy

Good to know, and that make sense.  Not having my shaving soap smell like vomit seems like a good goal.  :think:


----------



## Crombie

How about using a silicone cavity mold - like a half cup-cake size with straight edges (the size of the loofah foot soaps) ??   Would that work?


----------



## LBussy

Crombie said:


> How about using a silicone cavity mold - like a half cup-cake size with straight edges (the size of the loofah foot soaps) ??   Would that work?


It would probably work better with NaOH than with KOH.  Most of the KOH soaps I have used are semi-soft, we call them "croaps" as they are between a cream and a soap.  I think to un-mold any of them you'd have to freeze.  The commercial ones I have seen seem to be piped into the screw-top container and artisanal soaps just seem to be spooned/mushed in.

These are popular containers for instance:


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## paos_Fx

songwind said:


> I tried to do a cold process version of it, and it seized. I think it's too much stearic acid for CP. If someone with more experience wants to weigh in on that, I'd be grateful.




the people over in barrister and mann said they have to use hp due to the amount of stearic acid in theirs, so i'd say thats a safe conclusion.


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## Stacie

Got the fiance's review. I'm not sure about the policy for curse words on here, so I'll just say that he liked it *a lot* and immediately threw out the one he had been using. And now he needs a brush as nice as the soap.


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## LBussy

Stacie said:


> Got the fiance's review. I'm not sure about the policy for curse words on here, so I'll just say that he liked it *a lot* and immediately threw out the one he had been using. And now he needs a brush as nice as the soap.



Stacie, a brush is a very personal thing but this gentleman makes very nice brushes.   I own one as do a good many people on Badger and Blade:

http://ultimatependesigns.com/

No affiliation other than I purchased one from him after he was VERY nice about helping me through the decision process.

Or, if that's not in your price range, tell us what he has, what likes and does not like about his current brush and we might be able to guide you to what he may like better.  While you can drop $300 on some fancy brushes, one need not spend more than $30 in most cases for a fantastic brush that will last years.


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## Stacie

I looked at that site and I don't see prices, which seems like a bad sign for the budget, which is low. He uses a very cheap brush. He's only been at this for a year and a half and thought the whole pricey and fetishized shaving accoutrements thing was silly. I think he has had an epiphany with is wonderful soap that perhaps there is some value in the nicer products. I will ask him what he doesn't like about his brunch, but I'd imagine anything would be a step up.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Alas, I don't know about the shipping, but I bought one from The Traditional Shaving Company in the UK which was reasonable indeed.

ETA - Stacie, if you don't mind me asking, what recipe did you settle on in the end?


----------



## LBussy

Stacie said:


> I looked at that site and I don't see prices, which seems like a bad sign for the budget, which is low. He uses a very cheap brush. He's only been at this for a year and a half and thought the whole pricey and fetishized shaving accoutrements thing was silly. I think he has had an epiphany with is wonderful soap that perhaps there is some value in the nicer products. I will ask him what he doesn't like about his brunch, but I'd imagine anything would be a step up.


I would imagine his brushes start at $75 or so ... and yes they go up from there steeply.   Never fear though!  There are a lot of very nice brushes out there which do not cost an arm and a leg.  This one:




Omega 00065-100% Boar Bristle Shaving Brush-YELLOW
$10.99

... is s great 100% boar brush.  A boar brush does need a couple "shampooings" to get rid of the funk (it's a natural product after all) and does take a break in period to get nice.  The hairs will split making a much softer experience as it does so.  

I also like horse hair brushes, and this hair is collected during the grooming process.  I have a brush similar to this one and like it a lot:




Vie-Long 12750 Horse Hair Shaving Brush, Butterscotch
$39.99

I don't know of any economy priced badgers, mostly because I was a boar and horse hair guy before getting this custom brush made.

Do talk to him, find out if he likes to lather in the bowl, on his face, what he's using now and what he doesn't like about it.  We'll get you pointed in the right direction.


----------



## Stacie

I asked and got vague answers. I think he just knows he must be missing out on a better experience. He'd like a vintage one, actually. Got a source for that?


----------



## wetshavingproducts

Stacie said:


> I asked and got vague answers. I think he just knows he must be missing out on a better experience. He'd like a vintage one, actually. Got a source for that?



Answering this question first.

That's not a good idea. Hair has a shelf life and it's measured in years, not really decades. What he probably actually wants is a vintage handle with a new knot. All you need is to find the handle, drill out the old knot, and install a new one. If you don't want to do it yourself, there's a few people out there that will do it.

Answering the other questions. Full disclaimer, I do sell brushes. Boar is the cheapest and best bang for the dollar. It will soften up with use and a lot of people really don't see the point of badger if they love boar enough. Good quality badger is about 6-10x the price.

Moving up, you have clipped badger hair, usually mixed with goat hair. Basically leftover hair. This option is usually a few dollars more than boar. I don't use this hair.

Moving up, there's black badger/pure badger. It's a little scratchy, but it's basic badger.

Moving up again, fine/best/finest badger. Then silvertip, then exotic hairs.

Here's a hierarchy and description of most badger hair grades. The names change with supply/demand & customer expectations (aka every brand uses their own names). http://wetshavingproducts.com/badger-brush-hair-grades/


----------



## LBussy

Stacie said:


> I asked and got vague answers. I think he just knows he must be missing out on a better experience. He'd like a vintage one, actually. Got a source for that?


What he said ... and vintage sources are the same as others ... antique stores, Etsy and eBay. Here's one that is popular with those that restore:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Collectible...712?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a3f4f0530

And yes, re-knotting (what it's called when you replace the bristles) is going to be necessary with a vintage one.


----------



## Stacie

Great info. Thanks! Oh, and he lathers in the bowl, fwiw.


----------



## cleonm

*Smooth Move*



Stacie said:


> Got the fiance's review. I'm not sure about the policy for curse words on here, so I'll just say that he liked it *a lot* and immediately threw out the one he had been using. And now he needs a brush as nice as the soap.



Sounds like some tactics to get a sweet brush out of the deal! LOL 

J/K! ;-)


----------



## songwind

I personally recommend wetshavingproducts' umm.. products. 

I have had 3 of them (used one this morning, Stubby in Superfine) and they've all been great.


----------



## Stacie

cleonm said:


> Sounds like some tactics to get a sweet brush out of the deal! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> J/K! ;-)




It's always good to be given gift ideas for the boy.


----------



## songwind

Say, has anyone on this thread tried rebatching with this soap?


----------



## LBussy

songwind said:


> Say, has anyone on this thread tried rebatching with this soap?


I've not but I considered it for assing EO.  I expect freezing it might be necessary to grate it.


----------



## songwind

LBussy said:


> I've not but I considered it for assing EO.  I expect freezing it might be necessary to grate it.



That's what I was thinking, too. Particularly for sample purposes.

I was wondering if it might be possible to just work EO into it without melting it again, like mixing Play Doh colors.


----------



## wetshavingproducts

songwind said:


> Say, has anyone on this thread tried rebatching with this soap?



I couldn't get it to work for me. Either the crockpot couldn't get hot enough or I wasn't patient enough. Water wouldn't be absorbed, soap wouldn't 'melt' again, big fat crumbly failure of a batch.


----------



## AnnaO

*Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Songwind et al!*

I had been undecided about making this recipe for my OH as his face cannot tolerate high % coconut oil soaps - they are way too drying for him.

So I have been studying this and other shaving soap threads here as I considered other possible formulations. But as my soap oil stocks are a bit low at the moment I finally took the plunge and last week I made a small batch of Songwind's recipe anyway as I had the ingredients for that to hand.

I followed DeeAnna's suggestion for the two-step process, and I added the glycerine to the melted coconut oil right at the start.

The only difference between the original recipe and mine was that I upped the glycerine from 15% to 17.5% in an attempt to counteract excess drying, and I omitted FO/EO. 

And I must say the result is wonderful - thick and lasting lather, and my OH experienced no drying or redness at all! He is very happy 

So, my first shaving soap is a success too! - thank you


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

When I get back from my holiday (by the way, I'll be quiet on here for about a week  ) I am going to make some little sample batches to try out some permutations and combinations


----------



## AnnaO

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> When I get back from my holiday (by the way, I'll be quiet on here for about a week  ) I am going to make some little sample batches to try out some permutations and combinations



I made only a 200g batch, it was way too small an amount for the slow cooker, so I used a bain marie substitute (-stainless steel bowl sat on a pan of water on hob). Also I didn't use my stick blender, I just stirred with a spoon, and it took ~15 minutes to reach trace. I used a 3:1 water to lye ratio, which made a surprisingly doughy and kneadable mixture*, but then I had left it uncovered during the cook.
Have fun on your hols 

(edit: * that is, once it had cooled)


----------



## LBussy

AnnaO said:


> I made only a 200g batch, it was way too small an amount for the slow cooker, so I used a bain marie substitute (-stainless steel bowl sat on a pan of water on hob). Also I didn't use my stick blender, I just stirred with a spoon, and it took ~15 minutes to reach trace. I used a 3:1 water to lye ratio, which made a surprisingly doughy and kneadable mixture*, but then I had left it uncovered during the cook.


I don't own a stick blender and did not think I was missing it for this recipe.  Trace for me has been < 5 mins for sure.  I've been making 100g batches as that's more than enough to get a lot of shaves out of it.  I make them in a smaller screw-top food storage container:







I "float" that in the crock pot, and then use it as a soap container when I'm done.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I found some empty plastic pots that some food stuff came in - they looked rather good but needed a bit of a.......shall we say sterner test!  So I popped the kettle on, poured boiling water in to one of them and stabbed at it with a fork.

Pleased to say that it is totally fine (albeit no terrified of the sound of the kettle and the sight of forks) so I think they'll hold up to soaping.


----------



## wetshavingproducts

LBussy said:


> I "float" that in the crock pot, and then use it as a soap container when I'm done.



That's bleeping genius!


----------



## LBussy

wetshavingproducts said:


> That's bleeping genius!


I wish I could claim it ... pretty sure I read that on one of the other threads on B&B maybe.  Sure works well though.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

It was in the B&B thread - and jolly brilliant it is. My wee pots will be the same xxxx


----------



## songwind

LBussy said:


> I "float" that in the crock pot, and then use it as a soap container when I'm done.



So do you heat up a crock pot full of water, then, and use it like a double boiler?


----------



## LBussy

songwind said:


> So do you heat up a crock pot full of water, then, and use it like a double boiler?


Yes.  You can either keep a low level of water, or I filled it up (for the thermal mass) and used the pot lid to keep the smaller container from tipping over.


----------



## songwind

LBussy said:


> Yes.  You can either keep a low level of water, or I filled it up (for the thermal mass) and used the pot lid to keep the smaller container from tipping over.



Hmm. Very interesting. That would certainly make it easier to do little test batches.

My current plan was to do a 1lb batch and divide it after the cook and test several scents at once.


----------



## LBussy

songwind said:


> Hmm. Very interesting. That would certainly make it easier to do little test batches.
> 
> My current plan was to do a 1lb batch and divide it after the cook and test several scents at once.


Egg-zactly, especially if you are working on the base.


----------



## Natural20

I'm definitely going to try the Stearic/Coconut recipe, since everyone has had great success with it.  I was curious how a 52% Stearic / 48% Tallow would compare.  Has anyone tried it? Or something close?


----------



## LBussy

I think you'll find the lather is very toned down.  50/25/25 would be a nice place to start but really, try the base and go from there/.  It's hard to say what your results are because we don't have your water and your preference. 

If you make a 100g batch you are out nearly nothing if you completely hate it.


----------



## IrishLass

It won't be as cleansing and the lather would be different since saponified tallow is nowhere near as cleansing or bubbly as saponified coconut, but depending on the outcome you wish to achieve in your finished soap, that's not necessarily a bad thing, and can actually be a pretty good thing. You never know until you try!

One of the shaving recipes that I've been studying lately is this one here:
http://bubblelovesoap.weebly.com/blog/the-art-of-wet-shaving

It uses 40% stearic acid, 40% tallow and 20% shea butter, about 10% added glycerin, and a 60/40 KOH to NaOH ratio, and that's it! Well, other than water, that is. Notice that it doesn't contain any coconut or PKO or babassu (the really high-bubbly/cleansing oils). And if any of the comments below the recipe are to be believed, people who have tried it seem to really like it. I myself will be trying something similar hopefully some time next week for experiment sake. 

 And there's also a very successful artisan soap-maker whose shave soaps seem to have garnered a very loyal fan base amongst some of the wet shavers on the different shaving boards, and she doesn't use any coconut, pko, or babassu in her formula either.  

So, what I am saying is- go for it! You never know unless you try. And let us know how it came out!


IrishLass


----------



## Natural20

IrishLass said:


> One of the shaving recipes that I've been studying lately is this one here:
> http://bubblelovesoap.weebly.com/blog/the-art-of-wet-shaving



Thank you for that link.  That's exactly what I was wondering. (I love pictures.)


----------



## reinbeau

I have made Debbie Thomas' recipe (the Bubble love one mentioned above) and have had great reviews from three wet shaving friends.  It's a great recipe to start out with.


----------



## IrishLass

That's great to hear, Ann! I can hardly wait to make my version of it next week!

 IrishLass


----------



## Lindy

I use a lot of Stearic in mine and it creates a yogurt like lather....


----------



## Natural20

So how much stearic will it take to get to yogurt. I get to play with my recipes today if I can get to the bus depot fast enough after work. So excited.


----------



## LBussy

Natural20 said:


> So how much stearic will it take to get to yogurt. I get to play with my recipes today if I can get to the bus depot fast enough after work. So excited.


The soaps I have made that I like are all > 50% stearic as calculated by soap calc.


----------



## Natural20

I thought that 60% looked pretty impressive on the stearic experiment video I saw on YouTube. But I thought it maybe too much in a recipe.


----------



## Lindy

Add 30% of your recipe as Stearic Acid and play


----------



## TeriDk

Ok, just made the original recipe but added raw Illipe butter after the cook.  The lather on my hand was from a small, less than a pea, in size and no brush.  Just worked up the lather with my other hand when cleaning up.  As the soap cools, I'm finding it hard enough but pliable too.  I think hubby will like this much better then the CP shaving soap I made using NaOH.  Love this forum, always!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Looks good!

I was just thinking, with the 100% KOH version, is it practicable to whip it after the cook to make up a cream soap?  Similar recipes and all that.........................


----------



## shunt2011

Hey effy.....not sure you would be able to whip it.  It's pliable but not sure it's soft enough to whip.  I may have to test it out though to see if it would work.  I need to make more as I'm running very low on my supply.


----------



## LBussy

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Looks good!
> 
> I was just thinking, with the 100% KOH version, is it practicable to whip it after the cook to make up a cream soap?  Similar recipes and all that.........................


What would be the advantage?  (seriously, not arguing, I have no idea why I'd want cream)


----------



## shunt2011

I'm thinking then someone could use it as a shaving cream as opposed to using a shave brush. I know several folks that don't want to be bothered with using a brush but would probably enjoy it if it could be whipped.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Some people like creams - I'm thinking about options for folk, not just what I personally want or do not want.


----------



## LBussy

I see.  Not sure I'd ever agree a person could use it without a brush optimally, but whatever folks like I guess.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

As LBus says, it would still need a brush, but dipped in to load the product rather than a swirly loading


----------



## wetshavingproducts

A cream is much easier to load. But I'm assuming we're talking about the same consistency. For reference, I will refer to the Taylor of Old Bond Street as a cream shaving soap meant to be used with a brush. Other creams come in tubes for easy squirting.

A croap would be in between a cream & hard puck (basically a less liquid cream IMO) and in terms of loading is in between a hard triple milled puck and a cream. However, a croap more or less loads just as easily as a KOH soap IME/IMO. Maybe a little easier, but not terribly noticeable to me.


----------



## cpacamper

LBussy said:


> I think you'll find the lather is very toned down. 50/25/25 would be a nice place to start but really, try the base and go from there/. *It's hard to say what your results are because we don't have your water and your preference.*
> 
> If you make a 100g batch you are out nearly nothing if you completely hate it.



Crazy shaving lurker dude here.

Excellent observation, LBussy. My vintage Williams Mug Soap clone experiment stands at: 72% tallow, 19% SA, 9% coconut oil; 60/40 NaOH/KOH, 0% superfat. I don't desire yogurt-like lather, I'm going for very slick, wet, lasting lather that does not leave my face dry; a lather very similar to the actual vintage Williams. So far, so good, by the way. I could probably cut the tallow for more SA, but I'm afraid it would be too drying. I guess I could superfat 5% or so, saponify SA separately as discussed elsewhere, and add coconut oil last so as to superfat only the coconut oil. 

I'm going to try the SA/coconut oil recipe next.


----------



## Crombie

My shaving soap has 60% tallow and has AMAZING lather.  I add 1 tsp ppo of dry malt extract.  I do not use steric acid but do use SL at 3% in my recipe.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Guess what I am cooking up at the moment....................


----------



## cpacamper

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Guess what I am cooking up at the moment....................


Which recipe???!!!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

SA, CO and lard (tallow is harder to find than a sober teen on Spring Break!) - 4 100g batches, 2 with 100% KOH, 2 with a mix of KOH and NaOH.  I needed to make 4 as I am sending 2 of them over to the states as part of that PIF on B&B


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Here is the 100% KOH recipe that I shaved with this morning, about 12 hours after it was made. That's right, guys and gals - 12 measly hours! Can't wait to see how it is when I come back from Georgia 

This is freshly lathered




This is just over 30 mins later



Here is the 30 minute old lather on my hand. Not too bad



The shave itself was amazing - better than with my TOBS puck or even Arko. I'm loving this a lot. 

Will try the KOH and NaOH mix tomorrow


----------



## LBussy

Looks sexy!  By Georgia you mean the European country, not US?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Afraid so - if it was Georgia in the states then I would be looking to stock up on some things. 

Thanks for the compliment. I'll be interested to see how it performs in the next few weeks


----------



## DeeAnna

Bon voyage! Safe travels, Gent....


----------



## Susie

Indeed!  Have fun and be safe!


----------



## Crombie

*Adding clay*

The very best way to add clay, if you are using it, is to sift it over your melted oils.  Wait 15 minutes, then stick blend.  Then add your lye solution.  It works perfect for me every time this way.
---------------------------
www.sadiesmissionsoaps.com




Seawolfe said:


> I tried this recipe this weekend as a 40% NaOH and 60% KOH and went through hours of research and calculations. Decided to use this to try out 4 masculine scents (Eucalyptus, tea tree & peppermint, bay rum & BB tobacco, and cedar) and roll them out refridgerator cookie style like DeAnna suggested.
> 
> But I screwed up with the clay. I've only ever used clay in cold process soap, and I make a slurry and add it at thin trace and stick blend it in a little more. I need to stop doing that. I need to add it to the lye water.
> 
> Anyways I added the clay slurry to the already traced and too sticky to stick blend mixture and was never able to blend it in completely, so I have little blob dots of clay in my shaving soap!! Bleh.
> 
> I am SO disappointed, because they would have been great without this messup!! The pucks are kinda soft, yet still firm enough to wrap up on their own. Even though its way early I tried a bit to shave my legs and they are very nice and slippery. Too early to tell about lather I think. But I think those clay bits are gonna be a deal breaker for face shaving. Maybe Ill give them to a friend of mine with a dive boat as wetsuit lubricants or something...
> 
> Next time clay in the lye water!! Good thing I only make 2 lb batches
> 
> Edit to add: Hubby did just lather test some with his brush and it does have a fluffy lather for such a young soap, so maybe its not a total loss.


----------



## Lindy

The way I add clay is I make a slurry of it with the glycerin I am going to add, then add the whole thing into the oils before the lye water.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Out of interest, do people tend to go for the usual % with FO/EO or less or more?  I went for less with my shaving soap but it is not overly strong..........................


----------



## wetshavingproducts

I think you'll find that IFRA limits how strong we can make the scent and still be skin safe. In other words, 5% is the maximum usage on most FO's. Some of them are really strong like BB rose. But other than that one, I haven't found one that threw exceptionally well.


----------



## LBussy

I have found more than a few soaps which I wish had more fragrance to them.  When we whip up a lather we are taking a relatively small amount of soap and adding a ton of air.  I think that takes some "oomph" to carry over.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Thanks chaps.  

Already aware of the rules on max amounts, but I actually went lower on purpose, thinking about the soap going on shaved skin and so on.  Seems that it is not needed though, so will go for more in future.


----------



## IrishLass

Depending on the strength of the FO, I use anywhere from 1.88% ppo on the low side (about .3 oz. FO ppo), to 3.13% on the high side (about .5 oz. FO ppo) in my shaving soap. In my regular B&B bars I use a higher amount of FO- anywhere from 4% to 6%, depending.

 I go lower on the shaving soap because hubby prefers it that way. I'm telling you, he must have a bionic nose or the nose of a bloodhound or something. His sense of smell is so strong that it rivals that of a pregnant woman. lol Too much scent so close to his nose tends to overwhelm him, so I keep it on the light side.


 IrishLass


----------



## LBussy

Since there's a lot of folks starting shaving soaps with this thread, I wanted to add where I ended up.   It's been mentioned that this is a soft soap and does best in a container (at least when made with 100% KOH as mine are).  It's also very easy to make in small batches of 100g of oils, using disposable food storage containers to float several in a crock-pot and do HP.  

Using those small containers make nice containers from which to load a brush, but I began to need a little something more in my shave den.  I found these containers which fit a 100g batch perfectly:






I picked these up from Specialty Bottle, they are the Blue PET Heavywall 8oz Plastic Jar w/ White Dome Lid.  $0.97 each in small quantities, perfect for my shave den.  I grabbed the blue for this batch because this is a mentholated soap and it reminds me of the Vick's tubs.

I also picked up a few metal tins which should fit in a small flat-rate box (samples on the way) which will be nice for trading with other "crazy trouble-making wet-shaving dudes" soapers.


----------



## cpacamper

Lee, I would love to participate in a trade!  I'm sure there are at least a half dozen of us, we could do a massive trade.


----------



## LBussy

cpacamper said:


> Lee, I would love to participate in a trade!  I'm sure there are at least a half dozen of us, we could do a massive trade.


We should!  I gotta get through this planning season and make some more soap first though.


----------



## Zoeybean

WOW! What an amazing and amusing thread.  Thanks Songwind I am looking forward to making this for my picky wet shaving nephew, I have copy and pasted so many notes, I'll probably confuse myself. This will be my first hp soap and I can't think of a better recipe to try it on.


----------



## dosco

Lee:
thanks for posting the info about the tubs. I'm planning on making a couple of batches of shave soap for the purposes of Christmas gifts. I'm also thinking of making a batch as facial soap for the ladies (I sent some unscented tallow shave soap (superfatted with coconut oil) to my brother in law and his wife tried it on her face ... interestingly she really liked it).

Cheers-
Dave


----------



## LBussy

Didn't see you here Dave, welcome to the place where the knowledge is. 

I've only been rapped across the knuckles a couple times since being here, these folks are very good about sharing (and putting up with us!)

For the soaps I ship I ended up using the tins I spoke about earlier:







It's hard to make it out but these also have cellophane shrink-wrap sealing them.  They fit in a small flat rate box where the tubs do not.  I think you probably saw the poll on B&B about tubs vs tins.  A lot of people prefer the tubs but since I give my soap away they can be happy with what they get. :razz:

(For the more observant - yes I know neither of my labels meets FDA guidelines yet.  As these are free samples I am exempt but still will get them fixed.)

ETA:  I think maybe I sent you one of these now that I think about it.


----------



## claudep

Hehe 7 pot of 235g, peppermint lavander. Bentonite super shave soap.  I will try on saterday morning.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Have you tired it before you made a batch a size? If you want to tweak it, that's a lot of soap to get through. 

I made 2x100g pots and I have not made much headway in to them, using them pretty much 90% of the time.


----------



## claudep

Preparing my christmas gifts.  I probably get some 4 oz tins for next time.  If it does last has long as i believe, i may only make a new batch next year!  I did lots of research before selecting specifics of this recipe.

Looking forward to a change to TOBS.

My output for 1000 g of oil is around 1600g with glycerine, bentonite, eo, water and Koh.  I am curious of the water loss during curing.  This is why i am happy to have weighted these little pots . Will report back with info.

Also, first time using Koh, and it was zap free when in my jars.  I just love HP my recipes.


----------



## claudep

Reporting that this is one of the best shaving soap i have used.  The bubbles were small and dense, it wasn't drying at all, left it longer on a preshave.  Also did a test by leaving the foam on my brush, came back 45 minutes latter and it was very similar to what was loaded.


----------



## verotxu

I love this thread!!! Than you sooo much for the shared recipes. I have taken plenty of notes and I will try them myself and post my comments.

I do not have stearic acid so I need to order it. Some suppliers consider stearic acid the same product as triestearine eventhough they have different CAS number and it seems quite difficult to find stearic acid where I am from (Spain) but quite ease to find the second one. Could you please have a look at the product indication and be so kind of telling me the CAS number of the product you are using to make this soap recipe?

Cheers

Verotxu


----------



## LBussy

That's interesting ... I looked up the difference and I think what we call Stearic Acid is Stearin (your tristearine).  Stearic Acid (Octadecanoic acid) has a molecular formula of C18H36O2 while Stearin is a triclinic form of stearic acid and has a molecular formula of C57H110O6.  Stearin is almost exactly three molecules of stearic acid and since the lye will cleave these apart anyway, weight for weight I'll bet they are interchangeable (technically one would use 95% as much of stearic acid as stearin).

That being said, stearin is odorless and stearic acid is oily/pungent so I'm willing to bet that what you find as triestearine is CAS number 555-43-1 and what I am using.

Don;t spend money till DeeAnna verifies but I'm pretty sure that's right.


----------



## DeeAnna

Nice explanation, Lee! I can't resist adding a bit of a chemistry lesson to Lee's info:

Triglycerides are fats that have three fatty acid "fingers" attached to a glycerin "backbone". If you could look at any given fat molecule, you would see a varying assortment of fatty acids attached to each glycerin. A single molecule of lard, for example, might have stearic, oleic, and palmitic fingers, or two stearic and one oleic, or three palmitic, etc. 

Tristearin would be a purified fat with molecules that mostly have three (tri) stearic acid (stearin) fingers attached to the glycerin. If you look at the picture here -- http://www.chemicalbook.com/CASEN_555-43-1.htm -- the glycerin is in the center with the untidy OH (hydroxyl) pieces sticking out. The tidy stearic acid fingers extend outward from there. 

I am not quite certain how tristearin would be made commercially. If it is a product separated from natural fats, it would have a variable composition, much like commercial stearic acid, which is often roughly half stearic and half palmitic acid. If the tristearin is artificially created, it might be quite pure. I would expect, in either case, for tristearin to be a waxy solid at room temperature. (Lee??)

You would use tristearin like you would use lard, tallow, palm, or other high-stearic fat. If I didn't have any other information to go on, I would guess the saponification value of tristearin would be close to commercial stearic acid. If the seller can provide a sap value, it would be best to use that number.


----------



## LBussy

DeeAnna said:


> I am not quite certain how tristearin would be made commercially. If it is a product separated from natural fats, it would have a variable composition, much like commercial stearic acid, which is often roughly half stearic and half palmitic acid. If the tristearin is artificially created, it might be quite pure. I would expect, in either case, for tristearin to be a waxy solid at room temperature. (Lee??)


Hrmum, so that's interesting ... if you are saying Stearin is a triglyceride then the "common knowledge" that the SA we use has no glycerin is a fallacy.  SA, if that's really what we are using has none but stearin does.  Here is a pic of stearic acid:






And here is a pic of stearin:






The "SA" I use and see in stores is white, waxy, odorless (or smells like wax).  It seems reasonable that what we call SA is actually stearin and therefore does actually contribute glycerin to the soap made from it?

If that's true DeeAnna I need to revise that paper I sent you.


----------



## cpacamper

LBussy said:


> That's interesting ... I looked up the difference and I think what we call Stearic Acid is Stearin (your tristearine). Stearic Acid (Octadecanoic acid) has a molecular formula of C18H36O2 while Stearin is a triclinic form of stearic acid and has a molecular formula of C57H110O6. Stearin is almost exactly three molecules of stearic acid and since the lye will cleave these apart anyway, weight for weight I'll bet they are interchangeable (technically one would use 95% as much of stearic acid as stearin).
> 
> That being said, *stearin is odorless and stearic acid is oily/pungent* so I'm willing to bet that what you find as triestearine is CAS number 555-43-1 and what I am using.
> 
> Don;t spend money till DeeAnna verifies but I'm pretty sure that's right.



Lee, I must be missing something. The commercial stearic acid I purchase comes as small, dry flakes. Upon melting, the S.A. is clear and mostly odorless.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...Stearin is a triglyceride then the "common knowledge" that the SA we use has no glycerin is a fallacy..."

Stearic acid is a fatty acid, not a triglyceride. It definitely does not have any glycerin in it. 

Tristearin is a fat -- a triglyceride. It DOES contain glycerin. 

What may be confusing here might be the somewhat variable definition of the word stearin due to its original usage in history. 

When a natural fat (say palm oil or lard) is melted and then slowly cooled, the higher molecular weight fats will turn solid first. If you can hold the fats at precisely the right temperature, you can filter out the solids. 

The liquid part has historically been called "olein" because it contains liquid fat high in oleic acid and the solid part was called "stearin" because it contains solid fats high in stearic acid. 

The stearin fraction was once a hot commodity for candle making. The olein fraction glutted the market and was sold cheaply to soap makers. The words stearin and olein might not be used as precisely as one might like due to their lingering original meanings.


----------



## DeeAnna

It's a little like the word "lye", which can mean KOH or NaOH or a blend of both. The meaning is all about context. If you want precision, you need to spell it out. So stearic acid, tristearin, sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, etc.


----------



## dosco

LBussy said:


> Here is a pic of stearic acid:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here is a pic of stearin:



Now I'm confused. The second picture looks like the "Stearic Acid" that I purchase. The stuff on top/first pic doesn't look like anything I've ever used.

-Dave


----------



## DeeAnna

Stearic acid looks a little different depending on the natural fats from which the product is made, the type of processing done on the ingredients, and the whether the product is flaked or prilled (beads). Don't get too literal about this, 'kay?


----------



## LBussy

DeeAnna said:


> Stearic acid looks a little different depending on the natural fats from which the product is made, the type of processing done on the ingredients, and the whether the product is flaked or prilled (beads). Don't get too literal about this, 'kay?


The references also say that stearic acid has a pungent odor where stearin does not.  I'm 99% certain what I have (that was labeled stearic acid) is stearin.


----------



## guygarr

What oil will make a good superfat ? I have coconut , avocado , castor , and coco butter.


----------



## dosco

LBussy said:


> The references also say that stearic acid has a pungent odor where stearin does not.  I'm 99% certain what I have (that was labeled stearic acid) is stearin.



The stuff I have is not very smelly ... hmmmm.

-Dave


----------



## cpacamper

LBussy said:


> The references also say that stearic acid has a pungent odor where stearin does not.  I'm 99% certain what I have (that was labeled stearic acid) is stearin.



Hmm.  Then why wouldn't it be labeled as such?


----------



## LBussy

guygarr said:


> What oil will make a good superfat ? I have coconut , avocado , castor , and coco butter.


Of those I would probably go with cocoa butter but you will have to add it after the cook.


----------



## LBussy

cpacamper said:


> Hmm.  Then why wouldn't it be labeled as such?


Well, I have not purchased my stearin from a chemical supply house but a reseller of bulk chems.  When I asked for "stearic acid" it may just be that he assumed what I wanted (and what everyone wanted) was this.

Of course I bought this for pyro use too ...


----------



## DeeAnna

I think you have to look at the CAS number and/or the chemical formula to know for sure. Common names are quite often misleading. 

Assuming you actually have tristearin -- the triglyceride fat -- there really should not be a strong odor unless the product is rancid.

I currently have commercial stearic acid from two sources. I checked both -- one is a small bead and the other is a larger flake. Both are white and have almost no odor.


----------



## verotxu

Hello!

Thanks for answering!

This is indeed messy . The label of the bottle that I bought says estearine in capital letters, however, just below the name of stearic acid appears and its corresponding chemical formula (C18H36O2). The composition is C16 (I believe it is palmitic) 58.35% and C18 (I believe it is stearic) 40.76%. What about yours?

I really hope you have done your shaving soap with the same chemical I have so I do not need to do any extra purchase :lolno:. 

Cheers

Vero


----------



## claudep

Vero,  i do not have a purity rating for my stearic acid, but i assumed it was 99-100% stearic acid. When doing calculation soapcalc use a 99% stearic acid purity for lye calculation.

Palmitic acid has a lower molecular weight meaning you will have more molecule for the same weight.  This will throw off your superfat%.

You are also lucky that there is more molecule as the inverse could have mean that you could have unreacted lye in you soap.  If you use your product include the percentage of the weight to both palmitic acid and stearic acid.


----------



## claudep

For exemple, 

If you use 100g of your mix, you would enter in the soapcalc 58.35g of palmitic acid and 40.7g of stearic acid.

The recipe on this thread is for coconut oil and stearic acid.  This cannot be achieved with your product.

Coconut has around 9% palmitic acid, making the final concentration at around 4%.  Very different then the 58.35% of this ingredient.


----------



## verotxu

Hi!!

You are absolutely right!!, I will buy the correct product and most likely I will try to do the recipe using the stearic acid and the stearine.

Thanks!


----------



## Consuela

Well now, this is a hell of a read.   

And I'm glad I did because I was just going add some bentonite to my regular soap recipe, and call it a shaving soap for my cousin who asked me to make him some. Well that might have been a waste of time because he's looking for something that has good staying power, and good lather. 

Just a question though - Stearic acid.... co-emulsifier and thickener.... 

Could a person use a different emulsifier if that's what they had on hand - or is it necessary to use to stearic acid specifically? I can get that in town here easy, not a problem. But I have a lb of Emulsumulse (sp???) and I wonder if I could use that?

I might just try it and see how that works..... I'm only making a small batch anyway - so we'll see what happens...

(And then I shall update...)

Again....wow what a great thread - Thanks to everyone who contributed to this endeavour.!!


----------



## LBussy

MSDS says Emulsumulse is a combination of Glyceryl Stearate (stearin I believe?), Cetearyl Alcohol, and Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate.  Since we use this as a source of fatty acids and not an emulsifier, I'd probably choose to go with SA.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'm with Lee on that - we want the resulting potassium stearate rather than stearic acid per se


----------



## DeeAnna

"...Stearic acid.... co-emulsifier and thickener..."

Um, we're not making an emulsified lotion, we're making SOAP. The stearic acid reacts with lye to make the soap. You cannot treat it as if it's anything else but a soap making ingredient.

I use stearic acid as a thickener in lotions ... but that's an entirely different ballgame and it doesn't apply to this context.

As far as getting weird about finding reagent quality 99% stearic acid ... don't overthink this, folks. The commercial "stearic acid" is just fine. Yes, I know the commercial product is about 50% palmitic and 50% stearic acid. It's fine. It's what Songwind and other's recipes are based on. Just use it.


----------



## Trout464

*Fantastic!... but help?*

Hi, I am very new to the game... I have made a couple test batches of this recipe and I keep getting what I believe to be stearic spots... I am using a crock set on hi and the ratios are as posted. The first batch was butt ugly with many spots... I cooked it for approx 90 min... The second batch I added more glycerin 3tbsp and cooked for 120 min.... much better but still not completely gone... Am I on the right track to fixing this issue? any help would be much appreciated. They are intended to be christmas gifts and I would really like to make them look as awesome as they perform.


----------



## claudep

Trout, have you melted the stearic acid in a double boiler?

You don't add the solid stearic acid to the mix.  The melting temperature of stearic acid is higher than most oil. I also highly encourage to use Deanna two step process.  Mix coconut oil and potassium lye, emulsify.  After coconut oil as saponified, add stearic acid.  

I hope this helps to solve your problem.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I would say that could be overly complicated for someone new to soaping - unless trout is only new to shaving soap but an established soaper in general, of course. 

It sounds like you are cutting it in to bars. Have you tried putting it directly in to containers for the gifts instead? This way it isn't cut and the spots don't show up much, if at all.


----------



## LBussy

No crazy steps needed:  Melt all oils, keep at about 150F.  Pour in the lye after it's about 110 or less, mix.  Cook, stirring occasionally for 2 hours.  Done.

What does it look like?  Post a pic and we may be able to help.


----------



## shunt2011

I agree, it's a relatively easy process. I do combine everything but the stearic which I melt separately and then add the lye to those oils and lastly add the stearic.  It makes the process much easier.  I pour it into wide flat jars and leave enough head space to work up a lather.  My customers love it.  I also made pucks that they can refill their container with.


----------



## LBussy

Not arguing ... just curious how melting stearic separately is easier than just lumping it all in together?  I've measured and if my oils are at ~155 and my lye is at ~110 the mixture hits 170 after combining them.  This is a great temp for me because the stearic is liquid of course and does not allow it to harden again when a cooler liquid is added.   Dropping the lye down to 90 makes the subsequent mix ~150 which is still good - I get more consistent results when making sure the stearic is melted.

A comment on the jars though.  You make it sound like those may be glass jars and I hope I'm wrong on that.  Things get slippery and broken glass flying around with bare feet (and whatever else may be bare when a man shaves) is a bad thing ...


----------



## DeeAnna

"...how melting stearic separately is easier than just lumping it all in together?..."

I wrote up a detailed description early on in this thread, for those who want details. In summary, the advantage of adding lye to just the fats and later adding the melted stearic is that you get a more controlled saponification up to the point the stearic is added. That means you can bring the fats to trace in a nicely controlled way and make sure they and any other ingredients are thoroughly mixed before dealing with the rapid saponification of the stearic. <shrug> It's not all that complicated, really. But YMMV.


----------



## LBussy

So you are making it trace before it seizes basically?  

I guess "complicated" is a poor term ... "One more dirty pot"?


----------



## lenarenee

I'm so grateful for this thread. My dd and I made this as gifts for her uncle and grandfather.  There was no problem with the stearic acid though, in fact this was the easiest recipe I've ever done....made me wonder if I did it wrong because so many of you handled the stearic acid differently?  Melted  stearic and coconut together in crock pot, stick blended less than a minute and the batter was already translucent, but didn't trust that it was saponified enough to zap test, so let it cook 15 minutes, added glycerin and scent, and molded. 

It's driving me buggy not being able to test it though....we don't have a shaving brush in the house!


----------



## DeeAnna

"One more dirty pot"?

Well, I suppose for some it might be, but not for me. I always melt high-melt-temp ingredients like beeswax and stearic separately regardless of what I'm doing otherwise. I want to ensure it is completely liquid before use. Just me -- YMMV.


----------



## cpacamper

I made a 100g batch back in mid August that's been curing ever since.  As of today, its thickened to Silly Putty consistency but much stickier.  I'm going to wait until mid January to see how it performs.  I sampled some at the four week mark and it was great so I'm curious what a longer cure will do.


----------



## LBussy

Wow that seems like a lot of time to thicken.  I make mine and by the time it cools it's as hard as it will ever get (sort of like Cella, a touch harder).  Is your's along the lines of the LASS recipe?


----------



## cpacamper

LBussy said:


> Wow that seems like a lot of time to thicken. I make mine and by the time it cools it's as hard as it will ever get (sort of like Cella, a touch harder). Is your's along the lines of the LASS recipe?


 Yes exactly the recipe from that B and B thread.


----------



## new12soap

Sorry, which recipe did you use? Is it listed anywhere in this thread, or can you please link to it on B&B?

I was under the impression that because of the high KOH in these that they are ready immediately and don't need the same cure as regular bar soaps (even tho I am sure they do improve with age).

lenarenee, you don't need a brush, I can work up a thick rich creamy lather with this stuff just using my hands that is better than commercial shave cream.


----------



## LBussy

Took me a minute to find the original thread:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...n-Illustrated-Guide-to-a-Test-Batch-LONG-POST

I'm 99% sure you can read that without being a member.


----------



## cpacamper

new12soap said:


> Sorry, which recipe did you use? Is it listed anywhere in this thread, or can you please link to it on B&B?
> 
> I was under the impression that because of the high KOH in these that they are ready immediately and don't need the same cure as regular bar soaps (even tho I am sure they do improve with age).
> 
> lenarenee, you don't need a brush, I can work up a thick rich creamy lather with this stuff just using my hands that is better than commercial shave cream.


I'm not sure if linking directly to another forum is against the rules, so here is the raw recipe from B and B I used (from page 5 of a thread called "Homemade shaving soap: an illustrated guide to a test batch"):

"118g stearic acid
109g coconut oil
114g water
49g lye
1.5 tbsp glycerin"

I made a 100g batch and adjusted the weights in proportion accordingly.

Since this is a Martin de Candre clone and MdC cures their soap for 5 months (correct me here), I want the same cure time. I did shave with the soap 48 hours after cooking and it was fine.


----------



## new12soap

Ahhhh, okay yes I have seen that one. Thanks to you both.

I have made the basic recipe posted here, as well as a variation or two, and I am still tweaking it. I find it a bit drying, so trying to make it less so without sacrificing any of the qualities it has.


----------



## LBussy

I use 50g glycerin PPO in a similar recipe.  I also keep the water down to 33% and it's hard as soon as it cools.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'm glad this has come up again.  I was thinking about how those amounts were arrived at for MdC.  The ingredients are Stearic, water and THEN Coconut, but does that really mean they use that water or less CO?


----------



## LBussy

They probably use more water for the process - which explains why they need (or think the need) 5 months curing.


----------



## cpacamper

I agree with Lee.

 My curing soap was not as thick as it is now, after three months' cure.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'm just thinking of CO and the type of bubbles it brings.  Looking at making a 65/35 SA/CO one to see how it works - I don't think so much CO is used, but I might be wrong (it happens a lot!)

If they used so much water, I would think there would be a lot less scent after a 5 months cure than there is.  Little things about it just don't sit right for me - I know soaping does not always make sense, but it's making me question the idea of a 50/50 split.


----------



## claudep

Efficacious,  i came to the same conclusion before making this soap.

If they use full 38% water, it has to be at least 62% stearic, 38% CO to have CO = water and comply with the order in their ingredient list.

In the alternative, they could use more than 38% water and cook longer.


----------



## verotxu

Hello!

Finally I have managed to give the  SA 52%, CO 48% recipe a try: I melted the CO and SA separately, both in a jar inside a pot full of hot water (about 80 C); I added the KOH to the melted CO (still heat on), hand stirred for 10 minutes and as nothing hapenned I shifted to stir blended until thick trace; 
at this point it seemed that the mixture was going to separate into the lye and oil but i continued stirring and turned into a short of whipped-cream mixture. I added then the SA and it became the "smash potato" texture, cooked it for 20 minutes, zap test and added the glycerin. To be honest, it was a nightmare to put them into the containers...the mixture was too solid...the result is ugly indeed...

So far it looks like the firts pictures posted by songwind, however I am starting to see some clogs, I do not know if I have done something wrong or it is just the mixture turning into the second pictures posted by songwind......lets see....

I will do the same recipe using the "commercial" stearic acid (stearic palmitic) and post if there is any difference between the batches.

Cheers

Vero


----------



## verotxu

Hello!

My shaving soap has not changed its appereance, it is as white and hard as in the beginning....I will try tomorrow to conduct the same recipe but with the commercial stearine in order to see if the results are more alike yours....will post results!!

Cheers

Vero


----------



## verotxu

It might be also that the recipe needed more water...I added 100% KOH in a concentration of 30%

Just trying to figure it out what I did wrong...

Vero


----------



## Obsidian

I would recommend using full water with this recipe, might help keep it softer. For those of you who have made songwinds original recipe, how does this soap leave your skin feeling? Is it drying or waxy at all? Has anyone tried adding a nice SF like coco butter or shea?


----------



## claudep

Well, sf should inhibit lather.  Since lather is what is sought in a shaving soap, i wouldn't add much.  Also, if there is more oil in the lather, it will kore likely be harder to rince off the razor and could clogg the head.

I did my take on this receipe, and wouldn't change it.


----------



## Obsidian

My current shaving soap has a SF of 7% coco butter and it has plenty of nice slick cushiony lather.


----------



## DeeAnna

My husband and I both use the shave soap that's based on Songwind's recipe. I don't find it drying. 

Coconut Oil 48.0%
Stearic Acid (commercial) 52.0%
80% to 100% KOH (balance is NaOH)
Water is just plain distilled water
3% superfat
extra glycerin added at 15% of the total fat weight (CO + stearic wt)


----------



## Obsidian

What is commercial steric? Mine comes from MMS https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Stearic-Acid.html


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

There was a discussion about the different types of stearic acid - I can't remember where, but a site search on stearic acid commercial might well help. Look for things talking about the palm and stearic amounts. 

As for the recipe, I only used 7% glycerine with a 3 or 5% sf. No fancy butters, just a standard lye discount. I find it slightly drying, but then I did not use enough glycerin. 

You could of course sf with butters, but it won't be needed


----------



## verotxu

Obsidian said:


> What is commercial steric? Mine comes from MMS https://www.thesage.com/catalog/products/Stearic-Acid.html



It is just that my stearic acid was not 100% stearic acid but a mixture of palmitic and stearic, but i managed myself to get 100% stearic and did my recipe with that.

According to the MSDS yours is 100% stearic acid.

Cheers


----------



## verotxu

Hello!

I gave a second try to the recipe using the two steps procedure and a concentration of KOH of 25% and it did improve a lot!! the mixture was much easier to work with!! I also controlled the temperature to be sure that I would not reach temperatures below the melting point of the stearic acid so did not find any cloggs this time.

I repeated again the experiment just to see if  adding water after cooking would help working with the mixture, well, it did not turn out very well and suprinsingly the mixture became harder....

Btw, I measured the pH before the cooking and was already 9-10 so apparently there is not need for this step.

Cheers

Vero


----------



## Nikkor

Obsidian said:


> I would recommend using full water with this recipe, might help keep it softer. For those of you who have made songwinds original recipe, how does this soap leave your skin feeling? Is it drying or waxy at all? Has anyone tried adding a nice SF like coco butter or shea?



I find it very drying. All of the MdC clones are not very conditioning. Catie's Bubbles and WSP come to mind. The soap makers that use some conditioning oils and/or butters are a little better in terms of face feel but not much. 

Sure, they lather like a dream but so does a good tallow like Cold River Soap Works, Jabonman and MWF once you get it "dialed in". I like the lather of tallow better, so creamy!

Not everyone will have the same opinion or experience with the coconut oil soaps and that's fine. Some love them, some don't.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...suprinsingly the mixture became harder..."

Uh, hey, give some thought to what happens when a cool substance of any kind is added to a warm soap. Might that affect the consistency???


----------



## LBussy

verotxu said:


> My shaving soap has not changed its appereance, it is as white and hard as in the beginning....I will try tomorrow to conduct the same recipe but with the commercial stearine in order to see if the results are more alike yours....will post results!!


The soap being hard when put in tins is just what shaving soap does/is.  I glop it in and smooth with he back of a large SS spoon and it's just fine.  



verotxu said:


> It might be also that the recipe needed more water...I added 100% KOH in a concentration of 30%
> 
> Just trying to figure it out what I did wrong...
> 
> Vero


I don't think you did anything wrong.  I use 33% and by the time my HP is done (2 hrs) nearly all of the water has cooked out.  If I don't get it in tins when hot it's a rough process.



Obsidian said:


> I would recommend using full water with this recipe, might help keep it softer. For those of you who have made songwinds original recipe, how does this soap leave your skin feeling? Is it drying or waxy at all? Has anyone tried adding a nice SF like coco butter or shea?


I use a 5% SF of "special oils" and that helps in this respect (done after the cook).  Yes, the "pure" clones are not conditioning at all, but an after-shave milk really does wonders in this area.



claudep said:


> Well, sf should inhibit lather.  Since lather is what is sought in a shaving soap, i wouldn't add much.  Also, if there is more oil in the lather, it will kore likely be harder to rince off the razor and could clogg the head.
> 
> I did my take on this receipe, and wouldn't change it.


If your razor is clogging it's more likely to be that you are not using enough water.  The lather is there to hold moisture against your skin.  While the "lather p0rn" (can you believe that word is censored out?!) photos are pretty, that's not the lather you should be putting on your face.  Experiment with the soap, keep adding water till it completely falls apart, then back up a drop.  After properly worked up the lather should be more yogurt than whipped cream.  I shave with a straight and it's very easy to tell when rinsing if there's not enough water.  You can probably try the same with the back of a spoon or a bread knife.  It should rinse easily, and not require rubbing or a "stream" of water.



Nikkor said:


> I find it very drying. All of the MdC clones are not very conditioning. Catie's Bubbles and WSP come to mind. The soap makers that use some conditioning oils and/or butters are a little better in terms of face feel but not much.
> 
> Sure, they lather like a dream but so does a good tallow like Cold River Soap Works, Jabonman and MWF once you get it "dialed in". I like the lather of tallow better, so creamy!
> 
> Not everyone will have the same opinion or experience with the coconut oil soaps and that's fine. Some love them, some don't.


CO has nice properties but I agree, it should not be a CO soap for shaving - ideally.  Jabonman is a little on the heavy side with moisturizers I think but that is a personal choice.  I like to finish about the same as I started, and if I need conditioning I'll add it after.


----------



## shunt2011

LBussy said:


> Not arguing ... just curious how melting stearic separately is easier than just lumping it all in together? I've measured and if my oils are at ~155 and my lye is at ~110 the mixture hits 170 after combining them. This is a great temp for me because the stearic is liquid of course and does not allow it to harden again when a cooler liquid is added. Dropping the lye down to 90 makes the subsequent mix ~150 which is still good - I get more consistent results when making sure the stearic is melted.
> 
> A comment on the jars though. You make it sound like those may be glass jars and I hope I'm wrong on that. Things get slippery and broken glass flying around with bare feet (and whatever else may be bare when a man shaves) is a bad thing ...


 
I use plastic jars....no glass for any of my products.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I'll try the original MdC tonight again - I don't use it often (my own soap is preferred!) and will feed back on it compared to mine.

I will also be playing with a 65/35 or 70/30 mix of SA and CO as I think that is closer to what MdC might be.  I don't feel that the original idea of close to 50/50 SA/CO is right, so will try it out.

Will also be trying out 50/35/15 SA/xyz/CO where xyz is palm, lard and tallow to see how it works out.  As my original also needs some tweaking (increased glycerine, adding in citric acid) I'll make a control batch with 50% SA, 25% lard and 25% CO to compare.  Just rendered some tallow to have a play with it (alhtough I hope it doesn't make too much difference over palm, as tallow is impossible to buy here)


----------



## DeeAnna

"...bare feet (and whatever else may be bare when a man shaves)..."

Mmmmmm...........................!


----------



## LBussy

You would be AMAZED at how spry a half-asleep middle-aged man can be when properly motivated.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

LBussy said:


> You would be AMAZED at how spry a half-asleep middle-aged man can be when properly motivated.



Adds new meaning to the phrase "that was a close shave" :Kitten Love:

Just had a shave with the MdC.  I remember why I don't use it very much.  Neck was torn to pieces and skin does feel a bit dry.  Maybe not more so than with my soap, maybe even a touch less (but not $70 worth!) but the performance is just not there for me.  I last shaved Saturday AM, so it's been 2.5 days between shaves - I did 1 pass with the grain and then 1 pass across the grain on the cheeks, against the grain on the neck.  Sometimes I'll have a few weepers (little spots of raw skin that weep a bit of blood) but with this soap it looked like I'd been garroted with barbed wire. :-(

Maybe I would just need to give it time dialing it in, but I just feel that all that CO leaves it too bubbly to start with, putting me on the back foot from the off.  Using less CO is, I think, better by far.





The lather tonight




The lather with my soap (I think this was also the pure KOH soap) for comparison


----------



## Obsidian

I've heard that MdC is one of the best, I'm surprised by the sad fluffy lather. Your soap looks much better. My shave soap only has 9% coconut, take a bit of effort to work up a thick lather but it does get there.


----------



## LBussy

It's tough to tell with pics but the MdC looks as if it's not worked up enough.  Also try just adding more water till it start to run a *tiny* bit.  It is not a moisturizing soap but it's not a sub-par one either.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

LBussy said:


> It's tough to tell with pics but the MdC looks as if it's not worked up enough.  Also try just adding more water till it start to run a *tiny* bit.  It is not a moisturizing soap but it's not a sub-par one either.




I spent more time on the MdC than on mine. It's certainly not a subpar soap, but it lost certainly is not worth the asking price - even if I didn't make soap myself, there are cheaper and better soaps out there. I think it is over hyped on B&B and that the 35% that I used last time is more than I will use again


----------



## LBussy

IIRC MdC is one of the soaps without anything to counteract hard wat5er. That may explain why some work better than other for folks.  I find it to be a great soap but NWIH I'd pay $65 for it.


----------



## cpacamper

Interesting discussion about MdC.  I had assumed the 50/50 soap we made here and at B and B was as good a copy as possible.  Regardless,  the 50/50 recipe is very easy to lather and with the 15% by oil weight in added glycerin,  the soap leaves my face feeling pretty good.

That said, while the tallow Williams clone I make is slightly more work to make a lather, nothing beats the creamy slickness imparted by the tallow I am considering adding some lanolin to my recipe...might be a great combo.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

cpacamper said:


> Interesting discussion about MdC.  I had assumed the 50/50 soap we made here and at B and B was as good a copy as possible.  Regardless,  the 50/50 recipe is very easy to lather and with the 15% by oil weight in added glycerin,  the soap leaves my face feeling pretty good.
> 
> That said, while the tallow Williams clone I make is slightly more work to make a lather, nothing beats the creamy slickness imparted by the tallow I am considering adding some lanolin to my recipe...might be a great combo.




Watch for the irritation some people feel with it. If it makes the soap a step-change better, awesomes. If not, it might not be worth having it in there.


----------



## LBussy

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Watch for the irritation some people feel with it. If it makes the soap a step-change better, awesomes. If not, it might not be worth having it in there.


"It" being tallow?  Lanolin?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

LBussy said:


> "It" being tallow? Lanolin?


 
The latter - as he already had the tallow in there but was considering the Lanolin.  Some people don't react too well to it from what I have read - a small number, but some nonetheless.

As a general point - all ingredients in our products should bring something meaningful to the party.  If the Williams clone is great already and adding in the lanolin doesn't really improve it, then why keep it in there?  If when I add the citric acid to my shaving soap I don't see much of benefit then what is the point of keeping it in the recipe?


----------



## LBussy

I was going to ask why you were adding Citric acid ... I think I also asked once before but my memory is ... what were we talking about?

I was unaware that some people were sensitive to Lanolin.  I did find a reference that has the incidence in the general population at 1.46 to 8.75 cases per million which is rather low.  Cases of lanolin sensitivity among patients who had other contact dermatitis symptoms was significantly higher.

Clark E, Steel I. Investigations into the biomechanisms of the moisturizing function of lanolin. J Soc Cosmet Chem 1993;44:181–95.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

LBussy said:


> I was going to ask why you were adding Citric acid ... I think I also asked once before but my memory is ... what were we talking about?
> 
> I was unaware that some people were sensitive to Lanolin. I did find a reference that has the incidence in the general population at 1.46 to 8.75 cases per million which is rather low. Cases of lanolin sensitivity among patients who had other contact dermatitis symptoms was significantly higher.
> 
> Clark E, Steel I. Investigations into the biomechanisms of the moisturizing function of lanolin. J Soc Cosmet Chem 1993;44:181–95.


 
CA to make sodium citrate which might well help lathering in hard water - pretty important for me.  A lot of places use this 4 letter abbreviation thing that I can't recall at the mo, but I would prefer to use CA instead.

As for people actually being sensitve, not sure if it is real or just percieved to be honest.  But there are folks on that other forum of ours where people have posted about reacting badly to The Fat and other soaps with Lanolin.

This is one example why I knew I wanted glycerine and not dirt in my shaving soap - both might well do the job, but more people would refuse a muddy soap than a glyceriney one.  My soap is great with lard, but I would prefer to see if Tallow can give me the same or better result because then I can include those who wouldn't be happy using a pig-based product.


----------



## LBussy

Ah, gotcha.

The only issue I've had with lard is some brands are not as "scent-free" as others.  Love the soap it makes but sometimes what's in a name is the problem.


----------



## cpacamper

I'm still experimenting and my shaving soap is solely for personal use.  I do not have a lanolin sensitivity.  I love how Da Fat makes my face feel, although I am not a big fan of the lather from that soap compared to DR Harris and other hard shaving soaps.

Question: has anyone tried making a lard based shaving soap?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

cpacamper said:


> Question: has anyone tried making a lard based shaving soap?


 
Not lard based per se, but my current one is- 

48% SA
32% CO
20% Lard
7% Gly after the cook (should have been 15%)

Made a lovely soap.
------------------------

Again on a general note, I very often post things not just for the person quoted or even the OP, but also for the forum at large.  The point about Lanolin is an example -the information is now there for people formulating their own recipes to consider.


----------



## cpacamper

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Again on a general note, I very often post things not just for the person quoted or even the OP, but also for the forum at large.  The point about Lanolin is an example -the information is now there for people formulating their own recipes to consider.



  You sir are a true gentleman.

As to your recipe, 100% KOH?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I did two - one was 100% KOH, the other was (.......getting my book of recipes out.........) 45% KOH to 55% NaOH.  I actually find the mixed one fine for lathering up, whilet he KOH is just as good but need a lot of water to get there.  If you are used to Italian style or the harder pucks you can go for what you like.

I rendered some tallow recently so will try it in a shave soap, but it is a real hassle to have to have self-rendered as my only supply of tallow


----------



## cpacamper

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I did two - one was 100% KOH, the other was (.......getting my book of recipes out.........) 45% KOH to 55% NaOH. I actually find the mixed one fine for lathering up, whilet he KOH is just as good but need a lot of water to get there. If you are used to Italian style or the harder pucks you can go for what you like.
> 
> *I rendered some tallow recently so will try it in a shave soap, but it is a real hassle to have to have self-rendered as my only supply of tallow*


It surely is, especially if you sell your soap and need large quantities.  As a pure hobbyist, part of the fun for me is rendering tallow from the free beef trimmings my local grocer graciously provides from time to time


----------



## LBussy

cpacamper said:


> Question: has anyone tried making a lard based shaving soap?


I think the term "based" is a rough one for soaps.  What does it mean?  "Mostly?"  " I had this in mind and created my recipe around it?"  

I have used Lard in place of tallow and it's been fine, great even.  One of my favorite bar soaps is from IrishLass and uses Lard.  Setting aside the SAP values, I believe it's generally okay to replace them 1:1 for each other.

Here in the states the green/white boxed Armour brand of Lard has worked very well for me.


----------



## cpacamper

LBussy said:


> I think the term "based" is a rough one for soaps. What does it mean? "Mostly?" " I had this in mind and created my recipe around it?"
> 
> I have used Lard in place of tallow and it's been fine, great even. One of my favorite bar soaps is from IrishLass and uses Lard. Setting aside the SAP values, I believe it's generally okay to replace them 1:1 for each other.
> 
> Here in the states the green/white boxed Armour brand of Lard has worked very well for me.


I meant in place of tallow in shaving soap.  I have no particular proportion in mind, yet.

 I've accumulated bacon drippings in a coffee can in the fridge and the coffee can is full. I plan to render the gunk out of the drippings and use the remaining lard.


----------



## LBussy

cpacamper said:


> I've accumulated bacon drippings in a coffee can in the fridge and the coffee can is full. I plan to render the gunk out of the drippings and use the remaining lard.


Yuk.

Lard is like a buck at the store ... I'm not sure I could smear all that smell on my face.  I've spoken to a few folks who have tried this - far be it from me to discourage experimentation, but so far I don't know anyone who has liked it no matter how much they like bacon.


----------



## cpacamper

LBussy said:


> Yuk.
> 
> Lard is like a buck at the store ... I'm not sure I could smear all that smell on my face. I've spoken to a few folks who have tried this - far be it from me to discourage experimentation, but so far I don't know anyone who has liked it no matter how much they like bacon.



Well, rats. There's experimentation, and then there's banging one's head against the wall. 

Thanks for the info!


----------



## Obsidian

Lard in nearly $4 a pound here, I've often though about using bacon grease but I don't eat enough bacon to collect the fat.


----------



## LBussy

Obsidian said:


> Lard in nearly $4 a pound here, I've often though about using bacon grease but I don't eat enough bacon to collect the fat.


Wow that's crazy prizing ... I wonder why?


----------



## DeeAnna

Obsidian lives in Idaho. I don't have any idea of how many hog farms there are in Idaho, but I'd guess there are a lot fewer than in Iowa. Transportation costs and local patterns of usage can have a big effect on the availability and cost of a specialty item like lard.


----------



## Obsidian

There aren't hog farms in North Idaho, pork is expensive up this way.


----------



## new12soap

Walmart in Idaho has the 4lb buckets of Armor brand lard for $5.88, if they aren't in stock you can order it online and pick up in store or have the manager order it for you.


----------



## Obsidian

My walmart doesn't carry the buckets but I can look into ordering them for that price.


----------



## LBussy

Obsidian said:


> My walmart doesn't carry the buckets but I can look into ordering them for that price.


Not that you NEED $50 of lard, but they often have free shipping on orders > $50 so you can see what else you might need.  I think shipping to the store is free as well.


----------



## claudep

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> CA to make sodium citrate which might well help lathering in hard water - pretty important for me.  A lot of places use this 4 letter abbreviation thing that I can't recall at the mo, but I would prefer to use CA instead.
> 
> As for people actually being sensitve, not sure if it is real or just percieved to be honest.  But there are folks on that other forum of ours where people have posted about reacting badly to The Fat and other soaps with Lanolin.
> 
> This is one example why I knew I wanted glycerine and not dirt in my shaving soap - both might well do the job, but more people would refuse a muddy soap than a glyceriney one.  My soap is great with lard, but I would prefer to see if Tallow can give me the same or better result because then I can include those who wouldn't be happy using a pig-based product.




Do you mean EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid. Its a ion chelator, i.e. Bind the salt in the water to have less free salt interacting with soap.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

claudep said:


> Do you mean EDTA, Ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid. Its a ion chelator, i.e. Bind the salt in the water to have less free salt interacting with soap.




That's the one! Merci. 

It's used in small amounts, I know, but I'd prefer to use sodium citrate if I will use anything


----------



## verotxu

DeeAnna said:


> "...suprinsingly the mixture became harder..."
> 
> Uh, hey, give some thought to what happens when a cool substance of any kind is added to a warm soap. Might that affect the consistency???



Hi!

I forgot to say that the water was warm, maybe not enough hot though....

Cheers

Vero


----------



## verotxu

Obsidian said:


> I would recommend using full water with this recipe, might help keep it softer. For those of you who have made songwinds original recipe, how does this soap leave your skin feeling? Is it drying or waxy at all? Has anyone tried adding a nice SF like coco butter or shea?



Hello!

My DH tried yesterday (SA/CO 52/48 SF 5% gliceryn 15%) and did not find it drying, he loved the bubbles!!! I will add some nice butter as SF and see if it benefits the recipe.

Cheers

Vero


----------



## LBussy

verotxu said:


> Hi!
> 
> I forgot to say that the water was warm, maybe not enough hot though....
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Vero



I find an infra-red thermometer to be invaluable.  No more guessing and no cleaning it after.


----------



## Sapoho

Perhaps a silly question, but...
I use SoapMaker software, which allows me to enter cream soaps using a combo of K and NA. 
I entered one of the combo recipes linked and set the NA/K ratio. SM calculated I needed a large amount of water, while the posted recipe only called for 6 oz. 

By selecting a water discount of 60-63%, it gave me close to the amount the recipe used. 
I saw another post mention using the "full water amount of 38%" - is this the same thing, just reversed terminology?

It seems if I used the amount SM recommended, it would have a ton of water to cook/cure out.


----------



## DeeAnna

As far as the issue of lanolin causing sensitivity or dermatitis, it's my understanding that this may be more common when lanolin is used on injured or broken skin, not so much on normal, undamaged skin.

Here's an interesting paper talking about the causes of allergic contact dermatitis (ACD) in moisturizers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3016930/  The authors list fragrance, parabens, Vitamin E, and essential oils as being the top four ingredients in moisturizers that trigger ACD. 

According to the paper, lanolin is the 9th most common trigger for ACD. The authors note, "...reactions to lanolin more frequently occur on compromised skin, yet lanolin is generally safe when added to cosmetics extensively used in the population on noncompromised skin...." 

I think three of the top 4 ingredients -- fragrance, Vitamin E, and essential oils -- listed in the paper could be triggers for skin irritation when used in shave soaps. According to this article, "...facial skin has been found to be more sensitive to moisturizers than other parts of the body..." 

Anyways ... might be worth a read.


----------



## claudep

A fresh shaved face enter the realm of xompromised skin to me.  If it was simply a moisturizer maybe, but with DeeAnna good article, i would really think hard on using lanolin


----------



## new12soap

DeeAnna said:


> As far as the issue of lanolin causing sensitivity or dermatitis, it's my understanding that this may be more common when lanolin is used on injured or broken skin, not so much on normal, undamaged skin.
> 
> Here's an interesting paper talking about the causes of allergic contact dermatitis (ACD) in moisturizers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3016930/  The authors list fragrance, parabens, Vitamin E, and essential oils as being the top four ingredients in moisturizers that trigger ACD.
> 
> According to the paper, lanolin is the 9th most common trigger for ACD. The authors note, "...reactions to lanolin more frequently occur on compromised skin, yet lanolin is generally safe when added to cosmetics extensively used in the population on noncompromised skin...."
> 
> I think three of the top 4 ingredients -- fragrance, Vitamin E, and essential oils -- listed in the paper could be triggers for skin irritation when used in shave soaps. According to this article, "...facial skin has been found to be more sensitive to moisturizers than other parts of the body..."
> 
> Anyways ... might be worth a read.




The way I read the article, the list of allergens from the North American Contact Dermatitis Group (NACDG) screening panel was compared to a myriad of moisturizers that can be purchased at walgreens. Lanolin was _one_ such allergen, and was found in only 10% of moisurizers. Eight other allergens were _found more commonly in walgreen's products_ making lanolin the ninth most commonly found in the products they studied. Vitamin e was found in 55% of products. Even though they are listed in this study as the third most common allergen, the way they word it is I think misleading. ACD resulting from vit e is very rare, it is just AN allergen, found third most commonly, not that it is the third most allergic or most reactive.

Incidentally, the study also sites that an allergic contact dermatitis reaction to lanolin can also cross react to other fatty alcohols such as stearyl and cetyl alcohols.


----------



## claudep

New12soap, i like the critic on the design if the study.  Often much harder to find study flaw in interpretation of the results!


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## LBussy

claudep said:


> A fresh shaved face enter the realm of xompromised skin to me.  If it was simply a moisturizer maybe, but with DeeAnna good article, i would really think hard on using lanolin


I use Lanolin (and shea) because I like it and it works.  A freshly shaved face need not be compromised skin if you don't irritate it to begin with.  Lanolin helps avoid that.  With the very small amount we use, the fact that nearly all of it rinses off, and it helps you avoid irritation to begin with, it's a good choice for a lot of people.


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## DeeAnna

I don't think the study I cited is flawed nor does the paper misrepresent the researchers' purpose. They intended to report the frequency of occurrence of ingredients that may be allergens or irritants in moisturizers. I do think the way I wrote about it in this thread was misleading because I did not choose my words as carefully as I should have. I went back and re-read the article and I think New12soap provided a better and more accurate explanation of the study's purpose than I did.


----------



## new12soap

I'm sorry, DeeAnna, I didn't mean to imply that either you or the study was misleading or incorrect, just that the way they worded the findings could easily be misunderstood. It was a very interesting study.


----------



## DeeAnna

Oh, no apology necessary, New12Soap, but thank you for your thoughtfulness and kindness. I was responding to Claude's assumption that the study was flawed. My response was that my post describing the study was the thing that was flawed. You did a nice job of restating the study results in a more accurate way. All is well.


----------



## RhondaJ

I'm doing a modified version of this recipe as I type and it's been very interesting so far!

My recipe is as follows:

55% SA
35% CO
5% Castor
5% Cocoa Butter
50% NaOH
50% KOH

Standard 5% lye discount
15% Glycerin

I melted all oils in the crock pot together, didn't bother with melting the stearic alone. I also decided to toss the glycerin in with the oils rather than add it after cook. What occurred when I added the lye was almost instant soap! IN less than 5 minutes of stirring it went translucent and by the time I had my additional liquid in the pot it was making bubbles and was soap! 

Guess the glycerin works in this soap the same way it helps speed up liquid soap making. It's in the pot cooking a bit longer now, but I'm expecting that when I'm done typing this and do a zap test it's going to be good to go! This will be less than 15 minutes after adding lye solution and liquids!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

It would be interesting to see. I don't know of any issues with adding the glycerine before the cook - I add mine after as a medium for mixing in the scent. 

Looking forward to updates


----------



## RhondaJ

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> It would be interesting to see. I don't know of any issues with adding the glycerine before the cook - I add mine after as a medium for mixing in the scent.
> 
> Looking forward to updates



It's all ready zap tested negative, I'm letting it cook a hair longer though because it seems to be getting a bit smoother, which I hope will help in molding. I'm going to let it go another 10/15 minutes on warm in the crock pot then put into small 3oz individual cavity molds.


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## IrishLass

I always add my glycerin to the oils when making my shave soap, too. It just more convenient for me to do it that way. I've never had instant soap with it, though. It usually takes about an hour to an hour and a half for my shave soap to fully cook/saponify to zaplessness. I do mine in the oven set to 180F/82C. 

 IrishLass


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## tiptongrange

I make small 100g batches and cook them in teacups placed in a saucepan of simmering water. I use two teacups, fill one with stearic acid and the other with coconut oil and glycerin, and place them in the saucepan to melt and heat up.

I also use the two stage saponification method described earlier; I mix the KOH solution, pour it into the coconut oil cup that's been heated, and mix for about a minute. I then pour in the stearic acid and mix for about one or two minutes. It passes the zap test at that point and don't see any need to keep cooking. I tried the soap after a few days and it was great, I tried it again after a few weeks and it was even better.

Is there any reason to keep cooking after only a few minutes?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

It only needs to be cooked until it doesn't zap anymore.  If that is a few minutes or a few hours, it is ready when it is ready.


----------



## RhondaJ

Plopped it into individual cavity molds, small 3oz bars, it's firm yet still slightly pliable which I expected. Took the small, leftover piece and headed to the sink as soon as it was cool and started checking out the lather  - It's quick to lather and nice and dense, the pic is just about 10 seconds at the sink with it. I expect it to get much nicer over the next few weeks!


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## DeeAnna

"...What occurred when I added the lye was almost instant soap!..."

Uh, well, yeahhhhh.... With this type of recipe and this much stearic acid, it stands to reason that you should have gotten instant soap. It had nothing to do with where, when, or how you added the glycerin.

As far as the amount of time to cook, I second The Gent's point of view.


----------



## RhondaJ

DeeAnna said:


> "...What occurred when I added the lye was almost instant soap!..."
> 
> Uh, well, yeahhhhh.... With this type of recipe and this much stearic acid, it stands to reason that you should have gotten instant soap. It had nothing to do with where, when, or how you added the glycerin.
> 
> As far as the amount of time to cook, I second The Gent's point of view.




I'll admit, chemistry is not my thing. I get the basics and enough to understand when I read about it, but after reading thru this entire thread I expected a fast trace, then quite a bit of cook time similar to a standard HP soap. I was surprised by how fast it all went  Then I added 2+2 and obviously came up with 6  lol I assumed that the glycerin was part of the speeding up since it does just that in liquid soap.


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## LBussy

I cook for 2 hrs because when I'm done it's done, _the water is reduced_, and it's still soft enough to mold before it cools.  When it is cool it's fairly hard for a soft soap.


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## DeeAnna

I agree that glycerin does speed trace in liquid soap, but we're typically using a lot more glycerin in LS in proportion to the lye. I've made this high stearic recipe both ways -- glycerin up front and glycerin after saponification. It traces very fast in either case due to the stearic acid. 

The lye doesn't have to break down the stearic like it has to break down a "normal" fat, so saponification moves along very quickly. All the lye molecule has to do is waltz up to the fatty acid, push off a hydrogen, slap on a sodium, and ... whap! ... done! Happens within seconds. 

Sometimes you'll even see this happen with a regular soap recipe. As oils age, they naturally have a higher % of fatty acids, even if they don't smell rancid. When soaping with these older fats, the lye will instantly react with the fatty acids, making trace happen much quicker than normal. Quite a surprise to the soaper who wonders what just happened.


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## new12soap

DeeAnna said:


> All the lye molecule has to do is waltz up to the fatty acid, push off a hydrogen, slap on a sodium, and ... whap! ... done!



I think this is my new favorite sentence.


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## JustBeachy

LBussy said:


> I cook for 2 hrs because when I'm done it's done, _the water is reduced_, and it's still soft enough to mold before it cools.  When it is cool it's fairly hard for a soft soap.



Yeah I tried a longer cook on the one I made today and have to agree. Still malleable, yet reduced really nicely. I cooked mine for about 1.5 hours.


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## RhondaJ

new12soap said:


> I think this is my new favorite sentence.



LOL mine too! I had this whole cartoon lye bully image going on in my head when I read it!


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## claudep

DeeAnna,  i thought the article was great, but to understand what it means, one has to look at how it was tested.  I am truly grateful, has i had not seen it.  Will sure help creating better formulation.


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## Obsidian

I finally got around to making a small batch of shaving soap using songwinds original recipe with a 5% coco butter addition for SF. I also added a bit of SL along with the glycerin.

I just poured it a few minutes ago but out of curiosity, I grabbed a brush and palm lathered a bit and wow, it was amazingly thick. I almost reminded me of divinity or marshmallow cream. I can't wait until I can try shaving with it.

I will add that the unscented soap smells unpleasant, like old melted candles. I wanted to leave a portion unscented but I just couldn't do it. One bowl is chocolate and the other is OMH. I use the plastic salsa bowls from the dollar store to pour the soap in. Perfect size for lathering and lightweight but they don't have lids.


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## Jackofhearts

So about a week ago I made the original recipe.  The only change I made was to not scent it.  I wanted to get the performance just right before introducing new variables. Well, I finally broke down and shaved with it tonight.  It was by most accounts a great shave!  My wife even commented that my face looked really good (I know, right?!)  
The only things I would change are: 1) I would make it more moisturizing.  It wasn't really drying per se but given that its cold and dry here I figure why not.  My thoughts here is to include either cocoa butter or shea butter next time around.  I don't know how these respond to HP especially given how warm it has to be for the stearic acid to be incorporated.  and: 2) I want it to be slicker.  As per the original recipe I used 1/2 lb of oil and included 1/5 tbsp of glycerin.  It simply wasn't as slick as I would like it.  My thoughts regarding that would be to either incorporate bentonite clay (I'm pretty sure this would add slickness but I'm not sure I want to have clay in it.) or I could simply add more glycerin.  But, what I'm really wanting to try is to use a minority NaOH with a majority of KOH.  I'm thinking that having some NaOH could cost me some latherability (this is by FAR the easiest to lather soap I've ever tried so losing some of it isn't worrying) but it could gain me some slickness.  Also, it could firm up the soap a bit which would be kinda nice but not necessary.

Thoughts?

Thanks for your help!


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## Obsidian

I added the 5% coco butter SF in hope to make it a bit more moisturizing, not sure if it helped a whole lot but it doesn't seem to dry my skin. I only made a 5oz batch and added 1/2 tsp glycerin and it still wasn't as slick as I would like it but it did give a good shave and lathers easily. My regular shave soap is tallow based and its very, very slick but takes more work to get a good lather. You could try adding clay to a small portion, see if it helps.


I used only KoH but also added 1/2 tsp sodium lactate and my soap is quite firm. I would have been able to pour it in a mold and cut it. Oh, almost forgot that I used palm kernel oil instead of coconut since I was out of coconut, maybe that helped harden the soap too.


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## JustBeachy

The one I made last weekend has shea butter in it and clay. ( I can hear Craig groaning ). I also used 50% Coconut milk for the liquids.  I tried it tonight and was quite pleased. Smooth, close shave and it left my face feeling clean and moisturized.


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## DeeAnna

"...1/5 tbsp of glycerin..."

I would say that is a bit on the light side. I add somewhere between 10% to 15% of glycerin by weight based on weight of oils.


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## Jackofhearts

Sorry that was supposed to be 1.5 not 1/5.  I'm not a very good typist. 25g to be precise.


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## DeeAnna

Okay, that sounds much better. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Jackofhearts

I remember reading in my earlier soaping research (I'm still quite the newbie so I guess it's ALL early) that KOH creates shorter soap molecules or something which is why it's ideal for liquid soaps since it's more soluble; while NaOH tends to create longer molecules which tangle and make for a cohesive bar but a clumpy liquid soap.  All this to say, in that reading (I'm sorry but I don't remember where) it was said that NaOH tends to create slicker lathers.  
Could this create a slicker lather in my shaving soap? For those of you who have tried it, would you mind sharing with me your percentages?
I know I'm asking a lot, but if it helps I'm not planning on ever selling any shave soaps.

Also, according to my reading, I'm thinking that avocado oil would help.  Is this true?  I haven't been able to find much on avocado oil and what it brings to the party.

Thanks so much!!!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Could it also be your lathering? No offense, but often on shaving forums we see some people who can't get a decent lather from a certain soap while others can. 

I used to really dislike my pure KOH soap......until I learnt how to lather it! 

That said, I do think that the co is too high in this recipe. I will be trying it much lower in my next batches


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## IrishLass

Jackofhearts- if you have a look at the following thread, I think it will help to answer your question:

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47002&highlight=clay 


 IrishLass


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## DeeAnna

"...KOH creates shorter soap molecules or something which is why it's ideal for liquid soaps since it's more soluble; while NaOH tends to create longer molecules which tangle and make for a cohesive bar but a clumpy liquid soap..."

Hey, Jack -- I think this is rather a garbled mess of true facts and incorrect ideas. Thought I'd offer a bit about the science as I understand it --

True -- KOH soap is more water soluble and softer than NaOH soap, all other things being equal. That is simply due to the cation (say "cat-eye-on") that is stuck onto the fatty acid to make a soap molecule. A smaller "stronger" cation like sodium (Na) allows the soap molecules to pack tightly together so the finished soap can be in a hard, solid form. 

False -- The molecules in a solid soap bar do not want to "tangle" together if they can avoid it. They would prefer to organize themselves into tidy structures -- often times they make lasagna-style layers called lamelae. 

The exceptional ability of sodium soap molecules to organize themselves like this is one of the reasons why a sodium soap gets "ropy" or "snotty" when you add lots of water to make a "liquid soap". You can break up the layers of "snot" by a thorough stirring, but leave that liquidy sodium soap alone for awhile and those determined soap molecules will gradually sneak back into their preferred sheet structure.

A larger "softer" cation like potassium (K) is more forgiving, so potassium soap molecules are not bound together quite as tightly nor as neatly as is a sodium soap. A potassium soap does not have good organizational skills, so to speak. When water is added, the potassium soap molecules are freer to dissolve off the soap mass and go into water solution more easily.

False -- The cations (Na or K) do not control the length of the soap molecules. The fatty acids in the soap are the key to overall molecular length. For example, soap molecules made from coconut fatty acids are in general shorter than soap molecules made from tallow fatty acids. 

Inconclusive -- As far as whether a sodium soap makes slicker lather than a potassium soap ... I can't say that for sure. I'm not getting a strong sense that this is true from what people are saying who are experimenting with different types of shave soap recipes. I'd say a mix of the two types of lyes might help to build a stable, dense lather, but the shaver's technique has as much or more influence on that.


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## boyago

Happy 500th post shaving soap thread!  
I remember back when you were just a few pages long.  And look at how much learning and collaboration your created!  You've truely risen in ranks like the lather in our bowls.  Before you came along I was perfectly content to shave with my bar soap and bargain razors (so in some ways you've ruined me).
Songwind, be proud! Your thread has grown to a thing of beauty. 
Thanks to all of those who have contributed to this and taught me allot.  I truly appreciate the experience.


----------



## Jackofhearts

DeeAnna! I love your posts! Always informative and always interesting!  I was pretty sure that I had some of that wrong especially about the molecular length.  It always seemed to me that it would be determined by the fatty acids themselves.  Thank you for clearing that up.
To get very specific about what I mean by slickness, most soaps if you load a lot and keep the consistency thick or yogurt-y you end up with a lot of "cushion" but less slickness (in general).  After the blade comes by the soap residue feels gone or even a bit tacky.  However if you add more water you are left with a thinner slicker but less cushion-y lather.  Balancing these 2 dichotomies is mostly about the preference of the shaver.  I, for example, tend to prefer extra slickness when I shave my head (particularly the back) yet when I shave my face I tend to go for more cushion.  To be sure there are some soaps that straddle the line of cushion and slickness but what I think is really going on is that there is a balance or sweet spot to when they have the desired amount for both cushion and slickness.  Some soaps have a wider sweet spot than others and I guess I'm looking to widen the sweet spot of mine.
All this to say, I was hoping that using NaOH in some amount would up the slickness a bit without sacrificing the cushion afforded by the stearic acid and the ease of loading/lathering that KOH brings to the party.
I also in between my post yesterday and this evening realized that well... It's 17 degrees out tonight and the heat is kicking on a lot which dries out the air quite a bit.  This would explain why the lather often (toward the end of the pass) would feel drier and therefore less slick than the lather was when I whipped it up to begin with.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

So, 4 test batches made yesterday. Trying out a direct comparison of lard, palm and tallow. 50 gram batches - even with my awesome scale that is the limit that I would go to, though. 

Plus I am trying the sa/co mix but with a higher ratio of sa to co - I still think that the original premise that the sa and co were almost equal parts was wrong. We shall see what happens  

With all of them, I upped the glycerine to the amounts that I should have used initially, as well as adding in some citric acid and adjusting the lye amount accordingly. 

Looking forward to trying them out!


----------



## Obsidian

Nice test, can't wait to hear about the results. Really curious to hear how lard compares to tallow.

I tried my sa/co soap again yesterday but only on one leg, on the other I used my tallow based soap. Songwinds soap lathered really easily but it still has low slickness and it gave a lower quality shave. My tallow based soap takes longer to work into a proper lather but it gives a closer shave with less irritation and left my skin softer/not dried out.
I've came to the conclusion that tallow is what really helps with slickness, too much sa seems to make a waxy feeling lather. I didn't use any citric acid, maybe that would help or possibly the addition of clay.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I have the citric acid in there to help the lathering in hard water more than anything.  

I love my lard based one where I uses more CO than lard.  Will see how it compares.


----------



## verotxu

Hello!

I indeed that this is post is beautiful!!!

Regarding my research progress, I am cutting down the amount of CO in comparison to SA as I still have in mind that more than 25% of CO can be a bit drying for the skin. So far I have decrease the CO amount to 35% and my DH has not found any change in the lather...

I am also concern about the amount of glycerin..I know that the presence of more than 10% of glycerin in creams dries the skin, I do not know if this affects to soaps though....Has anyone experience in using less amount of glycerin o has tried any other alternative? 

Cheers

Vero


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Soap has some natural glycerine, plus what seems to be a standard 15% for this shaving soap.  I think that as people generally will need some sort of post-shave product regardless, the benefits of the glycerine outweigh the issues.


----------



## boyago

But something I am curious about which I haven't been able to find the answer to is this:  I saw that fully hydogenated soy bean oil is almost 98% Stearic.  Can someone confirm the chemistry in this is that the oleic and linoleic acids are converted to stearic when the double carbon bonds are swapped with hydrogen and thus saturating them?  Also I haven't been able to figure out in the resulting "soy wax" still has the glycerine intact?  And one more, all of the stearic I see from my usual soap suppliers is labels "from vegetable sources", but most vegetable oils are really low in stearic and the descriptions of stearic production I've read state that primarily fat trimmings and grease.  Are they using hydrogenated oils to produce this stearic and (final-final) why is soy wax more expensive than stearic?


----------



## Obsidian

Keep in mind that steric acid doesn't create glycerin when it saponifies, I can't remember why though. The glycerin isn't just for moisture, it helps create stable lather. 

I think I may have spoken too soon about not liking the original recipe. I picked up a new shave bowl today and did a couple test lathers. This lather was much slicker then the first few times I used it. I ended up shaving both my forearms and it was a nice shave. My skin isn't dry or irritated.


----------



## boyago

Obsidian said:


> Keep in mind that steric acid doesn't create glycerin when it saponifies, I can't remember why though. The glycerin isn't just for moisture, it helps create stable lather.



The glycerine is remove at the beginning of the process (hydrolysis) they use to isolate the stearic acids from the others.

*wierd, my last two posts swapped.  I must be time traveling again.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...oleic and linoleic acids are converted to stearic when the double carbon bonds are swapped with hydrogen and thus saturating them?..."

Yes. Oleic is monounsaturated (one double bond) with a backbone that is 18 carbons long (shorthand: C18 ). Linoleic has two unsaturated bonds but also has a C18 backbone. Stearic is C18 with no double bonds. 

"...double carbon bonds are swapped with hydrogen..."

It's not swapping exactly, but I can see why you would have that mental picture. The usual terminology would be to "saturate" or "hydrogenate" the fat, which means to force more hydrogen onto the carbon backbone so the double bonds are eliminated.

"...steric acid doesn't create glycerin when it saponifies..."

A fat is three fatty acids glued to a glycerin. When you saponify a fat, you break the fat apart, make soap out of the three fatty acids, and release the glycerin to do its thing. 

When you use a plain fatty acid like stearic acid in a recipe, the glycerin was not invited to the party. The lye just saponifies the lonely fatty acid into soap ... and that's all you get.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

So I test lathered the 4 day-old recipe - one of the three with the same recipe but either lard, palm or tallow. This one was the lard one -




Came back 40 minutes later and it was the same - still silky. Looking forward to how it is in the future. 

I also found something very interesting with the low co/ high stearic recipe. It didn't 'lather' as such, but produced a very creamy substance. I will show some pictures in the future


----------



## boyago

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> So I test lathered the 4 day-old recipe - one of the three with the same recipe but either lard, palm or tallow. This one was the lard one -
> 
> View attachment 11044
> 
> 
> Came back 40 minutes later and it was the same - still silky. Looking forward to how it is in the future.
> 
> I also found something very interesting with the low co/ high stearic recipe. It didn't 'lather' as such, but produced a very creamy substance. I will show some pictures in the future



How is this comparing to the palm and tallow?


----------



## reinbeau

boyago said:


> How is this comparing to the palm and tallow?


Patience, Grasshopper, I think the results will be posted


----------



## boyago

reinbeau said:


> Patience, Grasshopper, I think the results will be posted



I went and fetched my patience purse and when I opened it a bunch of moths flew out and it was empty.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Haha! Yes, the palm and tallow test will come soon. I might give the tallow a lather tonight to see how it looks. Palm I'll give the advantage of a longer cure (3days, max) before I test lather it. In the next couple of weeks will be a shave test with each


----------



## boyago

So here is my shaving soap success story.  I figured out that my cousins live in boyfriends was a wet shaver and when I told him I was working on a shaving soap recipe he eagerly volunteered to be a tester.  So I drop my three generations of shave soap off with my cousin at a school function.  I get a text from him this morning saying "good job, great lather".  I ask which one he tried and he's not sure.  I had marked them I, II, and III and asked him to take note of what he liked and didn't about each. I ask if it was hard or soft and if it smelled like oranges.  One was a NaOH combo and the other two where all KOH, one of which was scented.  He hadn't noticed the smell of it and said it was pretty hard.  I figure it was the combo and like any other time I've tried to get info out of someone about my soaps it was just going to be an uphill data mine and I'd be lucky to get which version he liked best.  Later I find the gen I (combo) bar at my exes, It had fallen out of my bag when I was giving my cousin the soap and she had found it after I left.  I drive by to drop the bar and find out he had used and liked the salt bars that I gave to my cousin with the explanation that the salt bars were for her to not be jealous of the shave soaps. I guess it's flattering for my salt bars or... somethin.


----------



## DeeAnna

Too true for me too. I ask for feedback, but unless it comes from another soaper, the feedback is usually pretty useless. If I want a decent critique, I count on my good friend Renae. She's a long time soaper, very particular about her soap, and never a person to mince words.


----------



## cpacamper

boyago said:


> I drive by to drop the bar and find out he had used and liked the salt bars that I gave to my cousin with the explanation that the salt bars were for her to not be jealous of the shave soaps. I guess it's flattering for my salt bars or... somethin.


Do my eyes deceive or do I read that he shaved with the salt bar and liked it?  Mind sharing the recipe?


----------



## boyago

cpacamper said:


> Do my eyes deceive or do I read that he shaved with the salt bar and liked it?  Mind sharing the recipe?



I was going to start this with a schmarmy "sure, if you promise not to shave with it".  But this is pretty much the same bar I would shave with all the time before reading this thread and starting to make my own dedicated shave soap.  How did I get that snobby that fast? 
Here's the recipe 1kg batch 80% CO, Castor 10% & Olive oil 10%. 15% SF (this was an estimate as I didn't include the fat from the coconut milk) with 147 NaOH, 147 H2O, and 234 coconut milk.  I scented this one with 2:3 Lemon and Balsam tolu EOs and there is 2Tbs of oatmeal and 1Tbs of Atlantic kelp.

Here's some pics after about 60 seconds of swirling with my brush in my hand.  The lather is fast and kind of big but not very dense.  On the face it doesn't feel as creamy as the shave soaps I'm working on.  Also if you love your shaving tools I would kind of worry about the salt.


----------



## JustBeachy

Two ladies I've given some of my salt bars to, have both told me," I love the way it makes my legs feel when I'm done shaving." haha. 

I'd gotten accustomed to using shaving lotions. After playing with songwinds base recipe and modifying it a bit, I'm hooked on the shave soap. Smooth, close shave. Face has never felt better. If that makes you a snob Boyago, then I must be with you.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

It comes down to 'making-do' or using something great and made for purpose. You can use a knife as a screwdriver, but a screwdriver will be better at it. Doesn't make you a snob, just makes you sensible to use the right tool for the right job. 

If you have access to a good shaving soap but carry on using a salt bar then there is something wrong somewhere


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

As promised





This is the palm recipe. It was very thirsty, but produced the goods. Came back after 20 minutes and it looked the same, lathered up the face a little bit and it looked good. 

Next will come the shaving tests.


----------



## boyago

So here is the 1st generation of my shave soap.  I wanted a bar for this one and did a 60/40 NaOH to KOH mix for the lye and also went way off the reservation from Songwinds recipe as I wanted to use whole fats (this was more of a gut feeling thing than based on much logic).  I punched in Songwinds recipe in soapcalc and took the soap attribute values and tried to match them with whole fats.  I know that those numbers are ball park and kind of arbitrarily assigned but I figured it was a good place to start.  This was a 5% lye reduction for SF.  I've been shaving with it every few days since I made it and it definitely got better over time in both lather speed and quality of lather.  The second and third gen are all KOH and are aging in.  The KOH already produce lather faster but I would like to see how they compare after some aging in.
Fresh:

20 Min in:

You could see a little bit of the lather dieing but the pics probably look most different because the clouds rolled in.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Looks good!

So how far off of the reservation did you go?


----------



## boyago

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> So how far off of the reservation did you go?



I went a little Neil Armstong, I did have some CO in it.  It was shea, castor, coaco, CO and palm.  Pretty much in that order for the first gen.  2nd and 3rd had more more CO and the 3rd I took out the palm.
I plan on doing the Songwind recipe next when I make my next order.


----------



## Obsidian

I think you will find adding steric will help keep your lather more stable so it doesn't break down as quick. I also like a little coco butter for SF to keep the lather from drying.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Well, I just went Baumgartner - but even after just 1 week + 1 day it's holding it's own -




A very enjoyable shave. This was the lard, a control batch in some ways as my old one was also lard.

Will try the others in the coming shaves


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Last one - this is the recipe with palm:




Takes a lot of water, especially to get it wet enough for a straight razor shave. Other than that, no clear distinction between this and the lard. Looks like I have my go-to vegan recipe for shaving soap


----------



## RhondaJ

Today my *shaving soap* that I made on 11/30 is 3 weeks old, and I've been using it to shave for the last 1.5 weeks. 

I'm in love and will never buy another commercial shaving cream again! I had come to believe that red, bumpy spots were a given when shaving bikini line, and just learned to live with it. How wrong I was! I've not had a bit of irritation when shaving since I switched over to the soap. DH is a convert as well....to the trash bin with all the store bought shaving cream!

I do think I'm going to tinker a bit with this and see if I can't make it even better, but for a first attempt I am THRILLED!


----------



## RhondaJ

So I tweaked and experimented a bit tonight and switched things up 

I used the following in a small 10oz batch with a 3% lye discount

50% Stearic Acid
24% Tallow
20% Coconut
6% Castor

70% KOH, 30% NaOH - dissolved in 2oz water - remainder of liquid was split between Aloe Gel from my plants in the yard and coconut milk

1.5 oz glycerin added after cook.
2% superfat after cook using 1/2 cocoa butter / 1/2 shea butter

Plopped it into the mold and let it cool and setup, as soon as I could cut it I snatched the rough end piece and checked the lather. It lathered a lot faster and easier than the test batch I did the other day with all tallow and no coconut, but definitely feels slicker and creamier than the coconut only I did the first time.

Not drying at all for being so fresh, I'm definitely feeling this new recipe  

Don't mind the bad photos, I'm not a great photographer and my phone hates me tonight!

First photo - pre loaded the brush for about 10 seconds then used my hand to build the lather, looks very dense and is sooooo creamy

Second photo - the brush 20 minutes later, it's staying firm.


----------



## LBussy

Looks like you have a winner!  A shaving soap with tallow should not have a drying feeling at all - and HP is not going to change as it ages except for lowering the moisture content.  I make mine with 5% SF and use a total of 10% shea and lanolin (expecting those to be in the SF since they sapponify much slower).  I would suggest that as an experiment as you have time.  There is a very large difference between the vegan CO/SA saps (as good as they are) and the tallow with some butters.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

LBussy said:


> .......and HP is not going to change as it ages except for lowering the moisture content. .......




I have to say that I find that to be different - hp soaps also benefit from a cure as there is more about curing than water loss. Now, how much of a benefit it is with a pure KOH soap, I think a liquid soap expert will have to chime in about that


----------



## reinbeau

I'm no liquid soap expert, but I'm reading that new Liquid Soapmaking book that just came out and she does mention letting things set for a few days - not weeks, though.

Disclaimer - linked for informational purposes only, not to sell the book


----------



## LBussy

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I have to say that I find that to be different - hp soaps also benefit from a cure as there is more about curing than water loss. Now, how much of a benefit it is with a pure KOH soap, I think a liquid soap expert will have to chime in about that


Anything is possible.  Like you said, NaOH vs KOH is a consideration.  I also use a longer cook than most folks - 2 hrs.  It's "done" at 30 mins.  Heat accelerates most reactions so maybe I am force-aging.

I shave with my soaps the next day because most of the time I am working in the afternoon and I shave in the morning.  So, it's rare that a soap ages more than 12 hours or so before use.  I have not noticed any changes over time but I also have not specifically tested for that.


----------



## boyago

Though I am brand new to making and using shave soaps I've been experimenting with my own.  My 1st generation was 60/40 NaOH to KOH and I definitely noticed it aged into betterness.  Though like always I'm kicking myself for less than detailed notes the soap that was made on 11/22 has notes of "better lather" on 12/12.  I remember it being a little faster to lather and the resulting lather was denser and felt like it was thicker/closer/hugging my face closer than it previously did while brushing on my face.  My 100% KOH batches don't seem to be changing as much as the mixed ones, I do imagine they are changing a bit though.  I think I read somewhere that the MDC brand mentions a five week cure so I think there is at least a belief that aging adds a little something.

Edit:  I did go ahead and test the lather of my later 100% KOH soap again last night.  This was made 12/11 and last night after getting back to town and the soap did indeed perform better.  I got an explosion of lather.  I had been missing the level of lather pr0n that other were achieving with Songwinds recipe and figured it was mostly the large amount of butters I was using to get the stearic up without using straight SA.  I tested this soap pretty often the first week and then got distracted as well as leaving town for the holiday.  I'm guessing the progress may be in part because the SA may be saponifying faster than the whole oils and the time is needed for the for the Lye to get around to all the fats and convert them to soap.


----------



## LBussy

I thought MdeC was a 5 month cure, but yes they definitely do make a point to mention it.


----------



## rainycityjen

Something I've always wondered ... MdeC lists stearic acid and coconut acid as its two fatty acid ingredients. Shaving soap enthusiasts substitute coconut oil for coconut acid. But INCI-wise, they are different, yes? What if you substituted straight lauric acid instead? I doubt you'd be able to get coconut acid itself, since it appears to be an ingredient only available in commercial bulk.


----------



## rainycityjen

To reply AGAIN, I want to add another testimonial about the basic process/recipe. I just cooked the following:

47% stearic acid
23% coconut oil
20% beef tallow
5% castor oil
5% avocado oil

Glycerin at 14% added after cook; aloe juice in place of water. FO blend of 60/40 locally purchased Eastern Sandalwood and BB Black Tea. (SO good.) Immediately after cook it had huge lather and I can't wait to test in a day or two.


----------



## DeeAnna

Coconut acid is just the fatty acids derived from coconut oil -- mostly myristic and lauric acids with a dash of the shorter-chain and longer-chain acids. The essential difference between using coconut oil vs. coconut acid would be the glycerin you get from saponifying the oil.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

And from what we know of shaving soaps, unless the acid alone is cheaper than the oil, I'll imagine it makes more sense to use the oil


----------



## boyago

DeeAnna said:


> Coconut acid is just the fatty acids derived from coconut oil -- mostly myristic and lauric acids with a dash of the shorter-chain and longer-chain acids. The essential difference between using coconut oil vs. coconut acid would be the glycerin you get from saponifying the oil.



I can't remember if it read tallow acid or acid of tallow but I am assuming this is would also be the remains after glycerin has been removed.  Is this a bi-product of glycerin production or are there benefits to using this over the whole oils?

Also here is my whole oil shave soap gen III, 100% KOH.  After a couple weeks I found it lathered up better than in the first week.  Though it should be noted that I am a beginner and my lathering technique may be improving (but I think it really is the soap maturing).





I scented this one with Orangex5 which is okay but a little weird.  I think next batch I'm gonna mix the orange with something like almond or something earthy.


----------



## dosco

I made several batches of soap for Christmas, one batch was shave soap. I am actually behind in my production schedule as I had planned to make 2 batches of shave soap ... so there is another batch in the near future to finish out 2014.

The batch I made was scented with Tobacco-Caramel scent from Wholesale Supplies Plus (side note: I was very happy with their performance as well as the quality of the FO I purchased ... they shipped 1 day after I ordered and I received the shipment about 3 days after my order).

The scent is fantastic. I really like how the soap came out. I actually made this soap as 2 separate batches, and interestingly one batch has clear spots in it that I presume to be a manifestation of "glycerine rivers" although it's more like "glycerin gumdrops" (lol). I'll post a picture later.

I have already given out several pucks (the soap was formed in ~3 inch diameter PVC pipe), and I've pressed some of the scrap into my lathering bowl.

Formulation is 50% stearic, 25% 76 degree coconut oil, and 25% lard. The stearic is saponified in a separate pot using KOH, the lard and CO are saponified with NaOH, and using HP the 2 pots are combined into one for final cooking.

The second soap that is yet to be made will be mint-menthol ... I have mint FO (ordered from Wholesale Supplies) and also have on hand menthol crystals. Base soap will be the same 50-25-25 formulation.

I'm starting to get bored with white soap. Anyone have any advice on colorants? Just order some from WSP?

Cheers-
Dave


----------



## dosco

rainycityjen said:


> To reply AGAIN, I want to add another testimonial about the basic process/recipe. I just cooked the following:
> 
> 47% stearic acid
> 23% coconut oil
> 20% beef tallow
> 5% castor oil
> 5% avocado oil
> 
> Glycerin at 14% added after cook; aloe juice in place of water. FO blend of 60/40 locally purchased Eastern Sandalwood and BB Black Tea. (SO good.) Immediately after cook it had huge lather and I can't wait to test in a day or two.



Formulation looks OK to me with the exception of the added glycerine ... there should be plenty of the natural stuff to make the soap very nice.

What sort of caustic did you use?

-Dave


----------



## rainycityjen

> Formulation looks OK to me with the exception of the added glycerine ...  there should be plenty of the natural stuff to make the soap very nice.


Ahhh, that makes sense. I didn't even think.

I used 100% KOH.

In retrospect I think I made two mistakes: one was reserving part of the aloe juice and adding it to the crockpot with the oils. I was thinking in terms of broth for cooking and didn't remember it would probably evaporate and leave me with a stronger lye: water solution. Luckily I soap with a pretty cushy water ratio anyway.

Secondly, I didn't mix well enough, esp. added glycerin. I was going off others who mentioned not SB at all. However I definitely got glycerin pockets from spatula alone.

The soap hardened up a lot after 8-12 hours and was sliceable -- it had about the firmness of cheese, not quite as firm as a normal soap, but still much firmer than I expected for a shave soap. (Probably my water ratio coming back at me? Or just the combo of hard oils, or both.)

The scent combo of 2:3 black tea to sandalwood was HEAVEN, however. And lather is still creamy and thick like cake frosting.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Bear in mind, you get no natural glycerine from stearic acid - it is not a triglyceride. I add 15% glycerine to my shave soaps.


----------



## shunt2011

I too add 13-15% glycerine to my shave soaps.  Makes a huge difference.  I started lower and worked my way up.  My husband and other wet shavers love the shave soap.  Heck, I like it to shave my legs.


----------



## boyago

dosco said:


> Formulation is 50% stearic, 25% 76 degree coconut oil, and 25% lard. The stearic is saponified in a separate pot using KOH, the lard and CO are saponified with NaOH, and using HP the 2 pots are combined into one for final cooking.



I've been noticing the split saponification on allot of the commercial soaps.  Has anybody done side by side comparisons using this method?  Does NaOH saponify more aggressively than KOH?  I'm curious why this is done.  With a mixed KOH/NaOH lye will the NaOH sap out the stearic faster than the KOH?


----------



## IrishLass

Boyago- have a look at this long, very informative thread. It will answer your question: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=47002&highlight=NaOH


HTH!
IrishLass


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

boyago said:


> I've been noticing the split saponification on allot of the commercial soaps.  Has anybody done side by side comparisons using this method?  Does NaOH saponify more aggressively than KOH?  I'm curious why this is done.  With a mixed KOH/NaOH lye will the NaOH sap out the stearic faster than the KOH?




There was talk about that further back in this thread. I think that the idea was to have the stearic and the KOH as a great combo, because a salt with KOH is more soluble than with NaOH.


----------



## LostArkitekt

Slightly off topic.  I read most of this thread, and I was wondering if someone can tell me something.  (If it doesn't belong here, you can PM me.)

I've used shave soaps for 20 years, but now, I'm kinda getting into the soft creams.  There are plenty of places that tell you how to make "shave cream," but they seem to be more like brushless shave cream.  I want to make a soft cream that one uses a brush, but it still lathers up like a hard shave soap.

Can anyone tell me the difference or what you'd change from this original recipe to make it much softer?

Thanks!


----------



## boyago

LostArkitekt said:


> Slightly off topic.  I read most of this thread, and I was wondering if someone can tell me something.  (If it doesn't belong here, you can PM me.)
> 
> I've used shave soaps for 20 years, but now, I'm kinda getting into the soft creams.  There are plenty of places that tell you how to make "shave cream," but they seem to be more like brushless shave cream.  I want to make a soft cream that one uses a brush, but it still lathers up like a hard shave soap.
> 
> Can anyone tell me the difference or what you'd change from this original recipe to make it much softer?
> 
> Thanks!



I was thinking of this too.  The Everything soap book has a section on it that starts "Cream soap making takes a lot of time and patience."  With my personality type this is already a daunting endeavor.  Though I think I will go ahead and give it a shot soon.  The Recipe Mrs. Grosso suggests for a base isn't actually alien to those discussed in these shaving soap threads, Stearic leading the pack in fats and a 1:6 NaOH to KOH ratio.  I looked it up after seeing that Cyril R Salter won the shaving cream honor on Badger and Blade and the guy who wrote them up made it sound very nice.


----------



## LBussy

LostArkitekt said:


> Slightly off topic.  I read most of this thread, and I was wondering if someone can tell me something.  (If it doesn't belong here, you can PM me.)


I don't think we're too busted up about tangents here. 

I've used shave soaps for 20 years, but now, I'm kinda getting into the soft creams.  There are plenty of places that tell you how to make "shave cream," but they seem to be more like brushless shave cream.  I want to make a soft cream that one uses a brush, but it still lathers up like a hard shave soap.

Can anyone tell me the difference or what you'd change from this original recipe to make it much softer?[/QUOTE]
Well is there some reason you want a cream?  A croap is what most of us work with in a shaving soap.  A cream is going to need some dispenser that can handle a highly viscous fluid - that's why they often come in tubes.  A croap is very soluble like a cream, yet allows one to leave it in a tub/tin to load it up.



boyago said:


> I looked it up after seeing that Cyril R Salter won the shaving cream honor on Badger and Blade and the guy who wrote them up made it sound very nice.


What B&B honor?  Been there a while, never seen a soap award.


----------



## normajean999

Hi all. I just finished reading this thread and I definitely want to try this sometime. I think DH and I would love this. I am new to soaping for personal use and I have a couple questions as I haven't used some of these ingredients before.  Is the Glycerin the same thing as USP 99.5 (Anhydrous) glycerin?  I already have some from walmart so I was just curious.  Also has anyone tried Essential Depot KOH?  I found this on Amazon and was wondering if anyone has feedback on this brand.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EDK0WK/ref=gno_cart_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A16NOSQ55ZAIJQ

And then I found this SA.  Will this be ok?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B3OVG28/ref=gno_cart_title_0?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1EQM8MSB9YKE1

Thanks in advance for any info and thanks for all the great info in this thread.:clap:


----------



## boyago

LBussy said:


> I don't think we're too busted up about tangents here.
> 
> I've used shave soaps for 20 years, but now, I'm kinda getting into the soft creams.  There are plenty of places that tell you how to make "shave cream," but they seem to be more like brushless shave cream.  I want to make a soft cream that one uses a brush, but it still lathers up like a hard shave soap.
> 
> Can anyone tell me the difference or what you'd change from this original recipe to make it much softer?


Well is there some reason you want a cream?  A croap is what most of us work with in a shaving soap.  A cream is going to need some dispenser that can handle a highly viscous fluid - that's why they often come in tubes.  A croap is very soluble like a cream, yet allows one to leave it in a tub/tin to load it up.


What B&B honor?  Been there a while, never seen a soap award. [/QUOTE]

Mostly I want to make it just to do it and check it out.  The practical reasons are pretty flimsy.  Maybe a little faster. Maybe and more likely some fascination with work "cream".  From looking at the recipe Grosso prints (for a basic cream soap base) in the book it seems it's much like what we are doing here with way more water and beating after soaping.

There's a banner on the main B&B splash page 2014 awards http://www.badgerandblade.com/.  We're talking about the same site right?  Here's the categories:

Categories And Winning Products:
Belts – Craft & Lore Mountain Belt – Announced 12/1/2014
Briefcases – Saddleback Thin Briefcase – Announced 12/1/2014
Shoes/Boots – Alden Shell Cordovan Chukka – Announced 12/5/2014
Watches – Sinn U1T – Announced 12/8/2014
Shaving Brushes Under $150 – Savile Row 3124 – Announced 12/2/2014
Shaving Brushes Over $150 – Simpson’s Chubby – Announced 12/8/2014
Double Edge Razors – Muhle R41 – Announced 12/1/2014
Straight Razors Under $500 – Nate Zowada, Nate’s Straights – Announced 12/1/2014
Straight Razors Over $500 – Tim Zowada – Announced 12/3/2014
Strops – Heirloom Razor Strop Company – Announced 12/2/2014
Shaving Creams – Cyril R Salter – Announced 12/4/2014
Shaving Soaps – Czech & Speake – Announced 12/3/2014
Aftershaves – The Gentlemens Refinery – Announced 12/5/2014
Pens – Pilot Custom 823 – Announced 12/4/2014

I've just surfed the site a bit, but didn't notice who was considered or any mention other than those who won. Also categories like "straight razors over $500" makes me feel kind of small.


----------



## LBussy

normajean999 said:


> Is the Glycerin the same thing as USP 99.5 (Anhydrous) glycerin?


That's what I use, yes.



> Also has anyone tried Essential Depot KOH?


Also what I use.   If you go to their website they often have free shipping on lye, although you need to compare the effective price.



> And then I found this SA.  Will this be ok?


That is a mixture of stearic and palmitic.  It's different than what some of us use, however in the resulting soap it's quite similar.



boyago said:


> Mostly I want to make it just to do it and check it out.  The practical reasons are pretty flimsy.  Maybe a little faster. Maybe and more likely some fascination with work "cream".  From looking at the recipe Grosso prints (for a basic cream soap base) in the book it seems it's much like what we are doing here with way more water and beating after soaping.


Hey whatever works for ya!  Was just curious. 



> There's a banner on the main B&B splash page 2014 awards http://www.badgerandblade.com/.  We're talking about the same site right?


Yep ... wonder how they arrive at those "winners".  Some are a slam dunk, others are questionable.



> I've just surfed the site a bit, but didn't notice who was considered or any mention other than those who won. Also categories like "straight razors over $500" makes me feel kind of small.


A couple weeks ago I saw a seven day set with real ivory scales.  I didn;t even ask.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I've also seen shaving cream in a tub, you dip the brush in to get some on the tips and then lather in a bowl or on the face. As Lee says, if you prefer creams it could be a way to go.


----------



## normajean999

LBussy said:


> That is a mixture of stearic and palmitic.  It's different than what some of us use, however in the resulting soap it's quite similar.



Thanks for the info LBussy! What do you look for to know it is not all Stearic? Do you know if essential depot's SA is all Stearic?


----------



## LBussy

normajean999 said:


> Thanks for the info LBussy! What do you look for to know it is not all Stearic? Do you know if essential depot's SA is all Stearic?



The CAS number (67701-03-05) for that shows it as mixed palmitic/stearic.  Stearic acid is 57-11-4 and stearin is 555-43-1.  A lot of folks use the mixed stuff with good results.  

I don't see a CAS number or MSDS listed at Essential Depot, you could call or email them and ask.


----------



## McSpin

I read through quite a few pages, but the thread is too long for me to read it all.  I bought the ingredients to try this and when the stearic acid arrived, I was surprised that it was a powder-like substance.  It seems that people have heated this to melt it before mixing into the oils.  Does this powder melt or do I have the wrong product?


----------



## Obsidian

You have the right product, it will melt into a oil.


----------



## McSpin

Thanks,

So, if I want to melt the stearic acid separately from the CO, can it be heated up by itself with no oil present?


----------



## Obsidian

Yep, it will melt by itself


----------



## LBussy

It can ... but why would you?  I find it melts faster when combined with the other oils.  I think the CO helps conduct the heat to the SA since it melts at a lower temp and is liquid fairly quickly.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I agree with Lee. Melt both together. 

This thread isn't too long for you to read - it's just longer than you WANT to read. It is, however, worth the effort.


----------



## boyago

McSpin said:


> I read through quite a few pages, but the thread is too long for me to read it all.


There's treasure hiding in there.
*
So I finally got the combination of ingredients and free time to try out the recipe as posted by Songwind and that was a blast.  I wound up following that with two variations to get a better handle on what is going on.  When I was cleaning up and rinsing out my cooking vessel I was getting some rockin lather up so I grabbed my brush and gave it a whirl.  Just using what was left in the pot after I squeegeed out the soap I got a very respectable lather.  Though I've been very happy with my whole oil supper butter soap I have to say that these soaps may have retired it.


----------



## boyago

Oh hey I have also been noticing that some of the shave soap manufacturers seem to split the saponification process between NaOH and KOH and respective oils.  The label will read something like potasium stearate, sodium cocate, sodium tallowate ect. (forgive me if my chem nomenclature is off)  Is this something also done by the artisans or is there some larger manufacturing reasons for doing this?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

boyago said:


> Oh hey I have also been noticing that some of the shave soap manufacturers seem to split the saponification process between NaOH and KOH and respective oils. The label will read something like potasium stearate, sodium cocate, sodium tallowate ect. (forgive me if my chem nomenclature is off) Is this something also done by the artisans or is there some larger manufacturing reasons for doing this?


 
Some do indeed do it.  There was another thread about shaving soaps where it was talked about having certain fats combining with the KOH alone to give a better a lather.  Usually, get all the KOH and stearic/tallow/lard together and then the NaOH and other oils, then mix it all together.


----------



## McSpin

LBussy said:


> It can ... but why would you?  I find it melts faster when combined with the other oils.  I think the CO helps conduct the heat to the SA since it melts at a lower temp and is liquid fairly quickly.



I was thinking of it, since another poster mentioned they did this, to slow down the effects of the stearic acid on trace.  There was also a mention of the effect of the high heat on the oils that could be minimized (might have been another thread).  Maybe those things aren't issues, but I thought I would minimize them if it was easy enough to do.  I guess it would depend on what temp is needed to melt the stearic acid, since I'm cooking it to ~180F in a crockpot anyway.


----------



## shunt2011

I've tried making shaving soap both ways.  Adding everything in together and separately.  I have to admit that adding the stearic after works so much better.  I get a much smoother soap that's easier to pour.  Of course that's my experience.  I just melt the stearic in a small pot over hot water and it doesn't take long at all.  I love my shave soap.  I stole a brush from my husband and use it to shave my legs now.


----------



## LBussy

McSpin said:


> I was thinking of it, since another poster mentioned they did this, to slow down the effects of the stearic acid on trace.  There was also a mention of the effect of the high heat on the oils that could be minimized (might have been another thread).  Maybe those things aren't issues, but I thought I would minimize them if it was easy enough to do.  I guess it would depend on what temp is needed to melt the stearic acid, since I'm cooking it to ~180F in a crockpot anyway.


Stearic melts somewhere around 155 give or take, likely not high enough to worry about overheating anything else.


----------



## McSpin

I made this shaving soap today and had such a weird experience, I figured I'd give everyone a good laugh. 

I followed instructions, carefully weighing ingredients and setting up the equipment just right.  Things went downhill quickly once I added the KOH. The CO went into trace almost immediately, so I then added the melted stearic acid and with one stir of the spoon, the whole thing seized. Talk about surprise. I was completely at a loss.  I went over everything and I know that I weighed it all correctly.  I had the print out from soap calc in front of me, and I had all right. 

After chopping at the mixture for several minutes, I ended up with a bowl full of what looked like hard crumbled wax.  I figured, I try melting it, so I stuck in a double boiler and boiled away. Nothing doing. So, then I just poured it into a sauce span and put it over a burner on high.  I was able to get it to smoke, but not a single crumble melted.  Then it hit me that maybe something was wrong with the stearic acid or the KOH, so I checked the packaging.  Stearic acid was what it should be, but the KOH was NaOH! I just ordered it and they sent it in a plastic bag with a tiny label where you could barely see what it said.  They sent me the wrong stuff and I never thought to double check it.  I was leery when I saw the plastic bag and thought it was a very unsafe way to ship a caustic substance.  Anyway, lessen learned - always double check a product that you receive to make sure they filled the order correctly.  Now, I know what happens when you try to make this recipe with NaOH - an indestructible wax forms.  I tried taking a piece to see if I could get it to foam and I couldn't create a single bubble out of it. I'm just glad that it was only an 8 ounce batch.


----------



## Obsidian

I would run your recipe back through soapcalc but use the NaOH setting and see how bad your batch is messed up. Maybe you could add some OO oil and at least get a usable bar?


----------



## McSpin

Obsidian said:


> I would run your recipe back through soapcalc but use the NaOH setting and see how bad your batch is messed up. Maybe you could add some OO oil and at least get a usable bar?



I did that and there's almost 50% more NaOH than there should be.  I can't get this crumbled mess to melt, so I'm not sure I can rebatch it in any way.  Would letting it sit in an oil for awhile help?


----------



## Obsidian

McSpin said:


> Would letting it sit in an oil for awhile help?



Probably not, water might soften it up but I don't know if it would be enough. It sounds like it might be better to toss it as this point as apposed to wasting more oil to try and fix it.
I generally always try to fix mistakes but this one sounds like a real mess. Hope your lye supplier will fix their mess up and get your KOH to you.


----------



## McSpin

That's what I was thinking.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

A good tip- also for when you have KOH there but might make a mistake - KOH tends to fizz when added to water in a way that NaOH doesn't. 

Sorry to hear that it didn't work. Next one will


----------



## McSpin

Curiosity got the best of me, so I decided to try and rebatch the soap.  I ground up the crumbly mess and added the missing CO and water.  I put it in a crockpot on high for about 3 hours to get it to melt, which it did, sort of.  I would stir the soap every now and then, and the melted soap stuck to the spoon would harden almost instantly when I took the spoon out of the pot, so I didn't have a lot of hope.  In fact, I decided not to add any fragrance, since at that point, it didn't look good. 

I decided to not try to get it into a mold, so I just put it on wax paper and quickly rolled it into a log shape.  Within 5 minutes it was like a rock! I decided to give it a try, so I cut a small amount off and lathered it up with a brush.  It didn't lather nearly as well as what I've seen in the photos in this thread.  However, it did work very well for a shave.  There were some some hard crumbs breaking off the bar which were a bit of an annoyance. Overall, I sort of saved it, but I won't use it and wouldn't want to even give it away. 

For now, I'll sit back and anticipate the arrival of the KOH.


----------



## lenarenee

I made Songwind's recipe back in late November, gave it out last week. The feedback I've gotten is that is does lather well and is very stable, but doesn't soften the beard. I'm a girl; I don't know what do with that information...?


----------



## boyago

lenarenee said:


> I made Songwind's recipe back in late November, gave it out last week. The feedback I've gotten is that is does lather well and is very stable, but doesn't soften the beard. I'm a girl; I don't know what do with that information...?



I've heard other talk of this or pre washing their face to soften the bear hairs but for myself while I can get a better easier shave if my face is hot and wet it doesn't seem to matter if I do this via washing with soap or a hot wet towel.  I am interested to hear what the other beard cutters have to say though.


----------



## dosco

lenarenee said:


> I made Songwind's recipe back in late November, gave it out last week. The feedback I've gotten is that is does lather well and is very stable, but doesn't soften the beard. I'm a girl; I don't know what do with that information...?



Soap isn't supposed to soften the beard ... hot water does that.

-Dave


----------



## lenarenee

Okay!  Now see, that's what I thought from watching my father shave with a Williams puck and brush. He always laid a hot wet washcloth on his face first. And when you watch reruns of Andy Williams (Mayberry) the barber has faces covered with a wet towel before shaving.  

For guys that use commercial shave cream from a can...what do they do? Or is there something in the can that replaces what hot water does?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Not sure what the canned stuff has in it, but they will need do something to the beard.

Me, I shave cold, so I wash my face with cold water and keep wetting my beard with cold water while I strop my razor and make my lather.  By that point the beard is suitable.  I also find that I don't want the hairs to be too soft - I want to cut them, not have them bend under pressure.


----------



## LBussy

lenarenee said:


> I made Songwind's recipe back in late November, gave it out last week. The feedback I've gotten is that is does lather well and is very stable, but doesn't soften the beard. I'm a girl; I don't know what do with that information...?


Real soap does soften the beard, but there's "a process" like everything else.  The reason it does soften the beard (and canned goo does not) is because the pH is higher like curling or straightening solution.  Also, some guys have beards and faces that react better to hot water and some to cold.  A guy needs to figure that out for himself.  However if you go into a barber shop, you can expect a similar treatment:

Wash the face with warm/hot soap and water, leave wet.  Covering with a hot damp towel for a few mins is a plus.  Next, what I do is load a bit of soap on the brush, and just coat my WET face with it _not _working up a lather and let that sit.  THEN I go about making my lather, and I apply it over the top of whats there.

These steps will help soften the beard if that's the issue.

A secondary issue is many people do not add enough water to the lather.  You have to build then add more water till the stiff peaks become soft again.  Shaving soap needs to hold a LOT of water next to the skin to be comfortable.  This is where experimentation comes in:  add water till the point it breaks down completely, then back it off a little nxt time.

Finally, I am not a fan of pure veggie soaps.  If you must or prefer to make no animal fat soaps then finishing with a little shea in the superfat may help.  I prefer a mix of shea and lanolin.  If you will/can use animal fats, adding Tallow is like night and day. A fat profile like this is what I use:

50% Stearic Acid
25% Coconut Oil
20% Tallow

Good luck with it!


----------



## HorseCreek

Ok, I've spent the last day and a half reading this thread (down time at work, hehe)... wow! So much amazing info here. 
I have the same question as someone (sorry can't remember who it was) else had recently re: making this into an actual cream (not the croap).
A cream that is squeezable. Why? Because that's what my brother uses and has requested. He started out with Proraso, and has since moved to The Art of Shaving cream soap. Sandalwood to be exact, lol. 
He changed from the Proraso because The AoS one doesn't give him as many bumps and irritations. So I've been charged with duplicating or making an equally good or better version. I don't know if I could convince him to try out a croap or not. Maybe? I am learning how serious you gents take you shaving, lol. So at any rate... anyone have any good ideas on the cream side of things?

ETA: I've spend some time looking at the ingredients list of the AoS cream... it has a lot of "stuff" in it. Lots of "stuff" that I don't have or care to use. I'm also questioning if this "stuff" is what's cutting back on his bumps and irritation or if it's necesasry.


----------



## LBussy

HorseCreek said:


> I have the same question as someone (sorry can't remember who it was) else had recently re: making this into an actual cream (not the croap).



Creams are popular for folks who like the convenience of dosing a small amount out (like toothpaste) and not having to load up a brush.  

I have not made a cream because ... well, it never occurred to me to do so.    Earlier in the thread someone mentioned Alicia Grosso's book "The Everything Soapmaking Book" and in there is a recipe/process for shave cream.   The suggestion was that it "sounded the same with more water and beating afterwards."  That may be.  

I know my own HP soap is quite hard right out of the pot even though I use KOH.  I assume this is because I drive off so much water with a longer cook.  I would assume the opposite to be true and if I were going to try it I would use more water, about 30 minutes cook (as opposed to my 2 hrs) and then whip in more moisture at the end.  "Catie's Bubbles" is a shave soap I can bring to mind that is in a tub but much closer to a cream consistency.  I suspect they do something like this.


----------



## LBussy

HorseCreek said:


> ETA: I've spend some time looking at the ingredients list of the AoS cream... it has a lot of "stuff" in it. Lots of "stuff" that I don't have or care to use. I'm also questioning if this "stuff" is what's cutting back on his bumps and irritation or if it's necesasry.


Proaso is closer to an Italian croap, but has it's own quite formidable (scary?) list:

Aqua (Water/Eau)
Stearic Acid
Cocos nucifera (Coconut) oil
Potassium Hydroxide
Glycerin
Sodium Hydroxide
Lactic acid
Parfum (Fragrance)
Menthol
Tocopheryl
Acetate
Sodium Lauroyl Sarcostinate
Hydroxyethylcellulose
Sodium Hydroxymethylglycinate
Hexyl Cinnamal
Geraniol
Citral
Limonene
Linalool
Pentaerythrityl
Tetra-di-t-butyl Hydroxyhydrocinnamate
Thymus vulgaris (Thyme) Flower/Leaf Extract
Avena sativa (Oat) Kernel extract
Camellia sinensis Leaf extract
Etidronic acid
Tetrasodium EDTA

All in all it looks like a croap with more water and "commercial crap" + fragrances.  A good discussion here:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/291788-Need-New-Proraso-Ingredient-List


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I would be tempted to see if you could make this soap or a variation with less CO and more lard/tallow as a cream.  As I understand it, cream soaps are normal recipes with KOH, left for a while then mix with water and a preservative (because of the amount of water) and beaten until it is creamy.  So no reason why a special recipe is needed.


----------



## boyago

Lindy was nice enough to put together a great tutorial on making cream soaps if anyone interested in this approach.
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49652


----------



## dosco

boyago said:


> Lindy was nice enough to put together a great tutorial on making cream soaps if anyone interested in this approach.
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49652



That's very interesting.

The process raises a few questions for me.

1. There is reference to the recipe being "harsh" due to the stearic acid. Why? Is there zero superfat, zero excess lye, and excess acid? (it would be nice to see a soapcalc analysis of the recipe presented in that thread).

2. What's special about adding the stearic and glycerin to the cook after the batch has turned to mashed potatoes? Why couldn't you add everything to the pot at once?

3. Seems like this would be highly applicable to shave soap, which has a high stearic content.

-Dave


----------



## LBussy

boyago said:


> Lindy was nice enough to put together a great tutorial on making cream soaps if anyone interested in this approach.
> http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49652


Ooh, awesome.  Thanks (and thank you Lindy), I'll go read


----------



## boyago

dosco said:


> That's very interesting.
> 
> The process raises a few questions for me.



You might get more traction asking on that thread.  Without dissecting the recipe (yet) I'd guess perhaps the saponification is mostly done (well not done but the lye is busy with the fats) and the second dose of stearic is used as a sort of thickening agent?


----------



## lenarenee

LBussy said:


> Real soap does soften the beard, but there's "a process" like everything else. The reason it does soften the beard (and canned goo does not) is because the pH is higher like curling or straightening solution. Also, some guys have beards and faces that react better to hot water and some to cold. A guy needs to figure that out for himself. However if you go into a barber shop, you can expect a similar treatment:
> 
> Wash the face with warm/hot soap and water, leave wet. Covering with a hot damp towel for a few mins is a plus. Next, what I do is load a bit of soap on the brush, and just coat my WET face with it _not _working up a lather and let that sit. THEN I go about making my lather, and I apply it over the top of whats there.
> 
> These steps will help soften the beard if that's the issue.
> 
> A secondary issue is many people do not add enough water to the lather. You have to build then add more water till the stiff peaks become soft again. Shaving soap needs to hold a LOT of water next to the skin to be comfortable. This is where experimentation comes in: add water till the point it breaks down completely, then back it off a little nxt time.
> 
> Finally, I am not a fan of pure veggie soaps. If you must or prefer to make no animal fat soaps then finishing with a little shea in the superfat may help. I prefer a mix of shea and lanolin. If you will/can use animal fats, adding Tallow is like night and day. A fat profile like this is what I use:
> 
> 50% Stearic Acid
> 25% Coconut Oil
> 20% Tallow
> 
> Good luck with it!


 
Thank you all for your input. Lee, I bought tallow off ebay for the purpose of shave soap, and I will try your recipe next.  

I've been re-thinking my goal to please the men in my life with homemade shaving soap; I may not put that much effort into this after all if I have to "defend" the soap by telling these guys their shaving process is the problem.

Then again, perhaps it's not their process. Maybe its their unique beard, their water, or maybe it is my soap??  Its difficult to critique my soap solely through the eyes of another.


----------



## dosco

lenarenee said:


> Thank you all for your input. Lee, I bought tallow off ebay for the purpose of shave soap, and I will try your recipe next.
> 
> I've been re-thinking my goal to please the men in my life with homemade shaving soap; I may not put that much effort into this after all if I have to "defend" the soap by telling these guys their shaving process is the problem.
> 
> Then again, perhaps it's not their process. Maybe its their unique beard, their water, or maybe it is my soap??  Its difficult to critique my soap solely through the eyes of another.



I'm a bit shocked that your significant other would give you static about "beard softening."

I make my own shave soap, and I have to tell you that it changed my life. Well, at least the unpleasant part of my life where I scrape my face.   

Soap was a key part of this.

-Dave


----------



## lenarenee

dosco said:


> I'm a bit shocked that your significant other would give you static about "beard softening."
> 
> I make my own shave soap, and I have to tell you that it changed my life. Well, at least the unpleasant part of my life where I scrape my face.
> 
> Soap was a key part of this.
> 
> -Dave


 
This was the father of my significant other. Someone I've never met in in person; he's....a very interesting person. Loves to show off how much he knows and has experienced, but doesn't like....to be challenged. Now that I think of it, he's just not open to the idea that there are more things to learn. He was happy to give feedback on the soap, but...I suspect happy to find something wrong with it.

Don't worry, it doesn't hurt my feelings. But the men I know, at this time...aren't interested in pursing this further, but were happy to give it a try.  Me, I'd love to come up with a recipe for a hard shave soap, with colors and scents geared toward men...just for the novelty of doing something masculine instead of feminine. But I don't have the audience/feedback for it.


----------



## LBussy

lenarenee said:


> Then again, perhaps it's not their process. Maybe its their unique beard, their water, or maybe it is my soap??  Its difficult to critique my soap solely through the eyes of another.


True!  See if you can talk them into using distilled water for one session.  I did this when travelling to a place with EXTREMELY hard water and it made a world of difference.  It won't help you fix it for them but it will help you diagnose the issue.


----------



## LBussy

dosco said:


> That's very interesting.
> 
> The process raises a few questions for me.
> 
> 1. There is reference to the recipe being "harsh" due to the stearic acid. Why? Is there zero superfat, zero excess lye, and excess acid? (it would be nice to see a soapcalc analysis of the recipe presented in that thread).
> 
> 2. What's special about adding the stearic and glycerin to the cook after the batch has turned to mashed potatoes? Why couldn't you add everything to the pot at once?
> 
> 3. Seems like this would be highly applicable to shave soap, which has a high stearic content.
> 
> -Dave


HA!  I had the same questions and posted that in the other thread.  We'll see.


----------



## dosco

LBussy said:


> HA!  I had the same questions and posted that in the other thread.  We'll see.



Great minds and all ...


----------



## doriettefarm

How low have you guys gone with the stearic acid and still feel like it's acceptable shave soap?  I don't like the waxy feel it leaves on my skin so my next batch may use less stearic, more tallow and possibly babassu instead of coconut.  

I used avocado oil as superfat in my first batch but may swap it for shea butter next time.  I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out . . . just need to buy an awesome shaving brush so I can test it properly!


----------



## Obsidian

lenarenee said:


> Then again, perhaps it's not their process. Maybe its their unique beard, their water, or maybe it is my soap??  Its difficult to critique my soap solely through the eyes of another.



This is exactly why I started using a shave brush & vintage double edge razor on my legs. I figured if I was making a soap for wet shaving, I should understand the process and the characteristics of a good shave soap.
I doubt I'll ever go back to disposable razor, a good handmade soap and a sharp DE blade has given me the bests shaves on my life.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

doriettefarm said:


> How low have you guys gone with the stearic acid and still feel like it's acceptable shave soap? I don't like the waxy feel it leaves on my skin so my next batch may use less stearic, more tallow and possibly babassu instead of coconut.
> 
> I used avocado oil as superfat in my first batch but may swap it for shea butter next time. I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out . . . just need to buy an awesome shaving brush so I can test it properly!


 
What amount of glycerine are you adding in? I don't find my 50% SA soaps to feel waxy - skin is different, I know, but I wonder if the glycerine is off-setting it


----------



## Obsidian

I've noticed a waxy feel from the steric too, adding in 5% shea for a SF really helped that.


----------



## shunt2011

Obsidian said:


> This is exactly why I started using a shave brush & vintage double edge razor on my legs. I figured if I was making a soap for wet shaving, I should understand the process and the characteristics of a good shave soap.
> I doubt I'll ever go back to disposable razor, a good handmade soap and a sharp DE blade has given me the bests shaves on my life.


 
Same here.  I decided to do it like my husband and others.  No turning back now.

I too find that adding 5% Shea for superfat makes a big difference.  I also use 13% glycerine.


----------



## McSpin

My KOH came in, so I made my 2nd batch. I like experimenting, so I changed things a bit.  Oils were 25% CO, 20% PO and 5% Shea Butter.  I brought the oils to trace without the stearic acid and then added the melted SA to the thick trace. I cooked it at about 180F for an hour and then added 1.5 tbs of glycerin. My EO was a mix of Peppermint and Lavender.   It hardened quite rapidly as it cooled.  I rolled it into a log on parchment paper. 

After 12 hours, I was able to cut the log into disks. The consistency was like play dough - Not sticky or anything like that.  







I'm new to shaving soaps, so cannot compare it to any other soap.  I know that it lathered well (even though I'm pretty clueless as to the best way to do that) and that the shave was effortless and smooth as can be.  Photo below shows the brush after about 10 seconds of swirling it in a bowl.





This has encouraged me to buy a double edge razor to get the full experience of traditional shaving.  I'll probably even buy some commercial shaving soaps, so I have something to compare to.  My gut feeling is this soap will be hard to top.


----------



## lenarenee

I've used 2% stearic acid sometimes in my cp recipes in order to add hardness and a "waxy" feel to a recipe high in olive oil. I think it also adds a nice shine.


----------



## LBussy

That looks good McSpin!  A good commercial soap to try that's VERY inexpensive is Arko.  I mean it smells like a urinal puck but it costs a buck if you can find it local.  Good thing too because I threw mine away.  Still the lather was good (to be fair some people actually like the smell).  It is without a doubt the price point leader.  Cella is a classic tallow soap that should be tried (has Almond fragrance if you are sensitive to that).  

If you want some ideas on an entry level razor, let us know!  We all have opinions but you can start very inexpensively.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Or get a straight razor to really enjoy traditional shaving


----------



## doriettefarm

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> What amount of glycerine are you adding in? I don't find my 50% SA soaps to feel waxy - skin is different, I know, but I wonder if the glycerine is off-setting it



I may have to retract my comment about the waxy feel of stearic in my shaving soap.  When I tested the lather using remnants from the crock pot after cooking, it did feel kinda waxy.  But when I used it in the shower this morning to shave my legs, the waxy feeling was gone.  I added 15% of total oil weight in glycerin after the cook so maybe it just needed more time.

I honestly don't have much experience with KOH & cream soaps.  I've only made one batch of cream soap prior to the shaving soap/croap that I posted.  I think it was Catherine Failor's recipe #5 but can't find my book to confirm.  Even though that batch of cream soap rotted for 6+ months it never lost the waxy feeling!  

I'm torn on what to change with my next batch of shaving soap.  Should I ditch the KOH/NaOH combo and use 100% KOH next time?  Or should I play around with the base oil/stearic percentages keeping the KOH/NaOH ratio at 70/30?  My goal is an awesome shave soap that doesn't make my legs feel like alligator skin and also doesn't require a container for packaging.


----------



## McSpin

LBussy said:


> That looks good McSpin!  A good commercial soap to try that's VERY inexpensive is Arko.  I mean it smells like a urinal puck but it costs a buck if you can find it local.  Good thing too because I threw mine away.  Still the lather was good (to be fair some people actually like the smell).  It is without a doubt the price point leader.  Cella is a classic tallow soap that should be tried (has Almond fragrance if you are sensitive to that).



Thanks for the recommendations. I have no clue what's local, but I'll have a look around before I order anything.  



> If you want some ideas on an entry level razor, let us know!  We all have opinions but you can start very inexpensively.



I actually ordered an Edwin Jagger DE89bl.  I think the literature said it wasn't too aggressive and I figured I'd start out with something that looked nice but wouldn't leave me looking like I was shaving with a sharpened weed whacker. I was looking at some vintage razors on ebay, but was overwhelmed by the choices.  I see myself getting more than one, so suggestions are always appreciated.


----------



## McSpin

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Or get a straight razor to really enjoy traditional shaving



LOL, not just yet, but I'm a knife guy - got lots of them, so I imagine one of those might just be somewhere in my future.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

doriettefarm said:


> I may have to retract my comment about the waxy feel of stearic in my shaving soap.  When I tested the lather using remnants from the crock pot after cooking, it did feel kinda waxy.  But when I used it in the shower this morning to shave my legs, the waxy feeling was gone.  I added 15% of total oil weight in glycerin after the cook so maybe it just needed more time.
> 
> I honestly don't have much experience with KOH & cream soaps.  I've only made one batch of cream soap prior to the shaving soap/croap that I posted.  I think it was Catherine Failor's recipe #5 but can't find my book to confirm.  Even though that batch of cream soap rotted for 6+ months it never lost the waxy feeling!
> 
> I'm torn on what to change with my next batch of shaving soap.  Should I ditch the KOH/NaOH combo and use 100% KOH next time?  Or should I play around with the base oil/stearic percentages keeping the KOH/NaOH ratio at 70/30?  My goal is an awesome shave soap that doesn't make my legs feel like alligator skin and also doesn't require a container for packaging.




Maybe try a 100% KOH batch, to see what it's like. I gave 100% KOH batch to The Admirable Lady for leg shaving and she loves it


----------



## boyago

McSpin said:


> I actually ordered an Edwin Jagger DE89bl.  I think the literature said it wasn't too aggressive and I figured I'd start out with something that looked nice but wouldn't leave me looking like I was shaving with a sharpened weed whacker. I was looking at some vintage razors on ebay, but was overwhelmed by the choices.  I see myself getting more than one, so suggestions are always appreciated.



I got the EJ89 for Xmas to start me on this awesome journey and love it.  I also picked up the Lord L6 since it was super cheap and had decent review and I've shaved with it once.  It wasn't nearly as nice.  I keep meaning to try it again but I am enjoying the EJ too much.  Plus I'm test all these variations of soap to tune my recipe and figure I should keep the razor in the controlled column.


----------



## dosco

McSpin said:


> I actually ordered an Edwin Jagger DE89bl. I think the literature said it wasn't too aggressive and I figured I'd start out with something that looked nice but wouldn't leave me looking like I was shaving with a sharpened weed whacker. I was looking at some vintage razors on ebay, but was overwhelmed by the choices. I see myself getting more than one, so suggestions are always appreciated.


 
Gillette Slim with Polsilver Iridium DE blades.





doriettefarm said:


> I'm torn on what to change with my next batch of shaving soap. Should I ditch the KOH/NaOH combo and use 100% KOH next time? Or should I play around with the base oil/stearic percentages keeping the KOH/NaOH ratio at 70/30? My goal is an awesome shave soap that doesn't make my legs feel like alligator skin and also doesn't require a container for packaging.


 
If I were you I'd try a 100% KOH recipe.

If you haven't tried scenting yet, that's another variable to consider.

-Dave


----------



## LBussy

doriettefarm said:


> I'm torn on what to change with my next batch of shaving soap.  Should I ditch the KOH/NaOH combo and use 100% KOH next time?  Or should I play around with the base oil/stearic percentages keeping the KOH/NaOH ratio at 70/30?


I always recommend people try 100% KOH because it's easier/simpler and I believe it makes a better soap.  There is a definite difference in the quality/texture that I can feel - whether or not you prefer one or the other is something you will have to try.

Of course most folks would say try both ... if you do make one change at a time per batch so you know what the magic was for you.


----------



## LBussy

McSpin said:


> Thanks for the recommendations. I have no clue what's local, but I'll have a look around before I order anything.


Amazon has 12 sticks for $13 and free Prime shipping (if you have Prime)

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VAWZ2U/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

A great price if you like it. If not ... well, not the worst thing ever. 

I think I mentioned Cella, here it is for $11 with Prime:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002Y1451S/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Any of the RazoRock soaps are great for a couple more bucks.  Of course we're talking about a commercial example so you can judge where you are based on those standards.  I recommend those because in any discussion with a wet shaver they are very likely to have experienced one or both of those.



> I actually ordered an Edwin Jagger DE89bl.  I think the literature said it wasn't too aggressive and I figured I'd start out with something that looked nice but wouldn't leave me looking like I was shaving with a sharpened weed whacker.


The EJ is a fantastic choice to start out.  Probably the MOST important items however is the blades.  These are as personal a choice as the soap.  There's a 90% chance you will not enjoy the blades that come with that razor in my experience.  One of the best recommendations a guy new to this can get is get a sampler of blades.  There are some on Amazon (of course):

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007OL72B8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Some of the "must try" blades (in my opinion only of course) are Feather (the sharpest thing EVER), Personna, Astra, and if you can find them in a sampler: my favorite is Iridium.  If you are not a member of Badger and Blade, having a gander over there at the beginner sections and the buy sell trade area may net you a pretty good selection.

Buying a sampler is relatively expensive (around a buck a blade) because you pay for that convenience.  The Feathers are generally among the most expensive in bulk, I think the last time I bought them they were $0.11 a blade.  Maybe your face will like one of the less expensive ones, but you can't cheat your face.  It will like what it likes.



> I was looking at some vintage razors on ebay, but was overwhelmed by the choices.  I see myself getting more than one, so suggestions are always appreciated.


The Gillette Tech is by far the most common and one of the milder choices.  You can get one for <$10 if you don't care about the chrome (really nickel plating).  Since you have the EJ I'd say unless you WANT and older razor, you probably won't find a difference in the two mildness-wise.

And ... again I recommend Badger and Blade.  It's not exactly a "sister site" but I am pretty sure all the "trouble-making wet shaver dudes" here belong there as well.  We don't get the benefit of learning the art of wet shaving from our parents anymore.  Being able to ask questions of thousands of guys with some experience in what you are going through is the next best thing.

It takes time to learn to shave with those DE razors.  Give yourself that time to learn.  It can be immensely enjoyable.  Craig mentioned  straights and that is the path some of us take.  I'm 49 years old and never pampered myself before starting this journey.  It's not exactly manly to speak of it like that but it is what it is.  Taking the time to slow down and enjoy a shave in the morning (or afternoon) is one of the best parts of my day.   In part, it's why we are so passionate about the shaving soap.


----------



## Obsidian

I use http://tryablade.com/ for my DE blades. You can pick a nice sampler for very little. Personally, I dislike feathers a lot. I just can't get a close shave no matter what and the blades seem to dull really quick. My favorite are lord platinum. I use a vintage Gillette fat boy set on 6 (they are adjustable)


----------



## LBussy

Obsidian said:


> I use http://tryablade.com/ for my DE blades. You can pick a nice sampler for very little. Personally, I dislike feathers a lot. I just can't get a close shave no matter what and the blades seem to dull really quick. My favorite are lord platinum. I use a vintage Gillette fat boy set on 6 (they are adjustable)


See, great example.  My BEST shaves are with Iridium or Feather (I use a slant when I use a DE).  Feathers do seem to dull quickly however.  I cannot use Lord at all.

Good tip on the sampler place - I'll bookmark that.


----------



## dosco

IME Personna Med Preps are pretty good, but the Polsilver Iridiums are simply fantastic.

-Dave


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Okay, let's not end up recreating Badger & Blade here - let's talk about them soaps, folks.


----------



## LBussy

... and I use those blades with my SHAVING SOAP ...


----------



## McSpin

Everyone, thanks for all those great recommendations.  It's funny, but I've hated shaving my whole life and now I know why.  This soap has given me my first, not only comfortable, but enjoyable shaves ever.  Who knew soap making could have such an effect!  I look forward to shaving each day now. 

I like to tinker with recipes, so I can see myself giving away a lot of soap so I can try improving what I have.  For instance, I'm not experienced at choosing scents, and will need to experiment in that area quite a bit.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

A good way to play with scents is to put a few drops in your chosen ratio on to a cotton ball and put it in a Baggie. Come back and smell it from time to time to see how the mix is for you. This way you don't use so much of your eo nor do you have to waste a soap batch on a blend that you really don't like


----------



## Lindy

I love and use Feather & Persona Red blades.


----------



## rogue

Just made my first cream soap today & wanted to see how it lathered on the brush new for entertainment value. It was very impressive. Since I had brush out I played with my tester of my new batch of shave soap that's a week old, so disappointing next to that cream I was surprised!  Then I re-tested my shave soap from @ 4+ months ago, night & day. 
Makes me sad I'm like a hairless mouse & shave quarterly. I see how this is addicting for the guys, very cool indeed.


----------



## LBussy

rogue said:


> Just made my first cream soap today & wanted to see how it lathered on the brush new for entertainment value. It was very impressive. Since I had brush out I played with my tester of my new batch of shave soap that's a week old, so disappointing next to that cream I was surprised!  Then I re-tested my shave soap from @ 4+ months ago, night & day.
> Makes me sad I'm like a hairless mouse & shave quarterly. I see how this is addicting for the guys, very cool indeed.


What sort of shave soap did you make a week ago?  I regularly use mine right after it's made with no appreciable difference between it and aged soap.

I'd think the cream soap would be pretty waxy but I've not tried it ... yet.


----------



## rogue

I'm using a variation of Debbie Thomas' from post #249 here. I'm not surprised it's changed. It's never going to be fully bone dry so those molecules are going to slowly shift & align themselves and make weak but important hydrogen bonds with its neighbors. I'm gonna assume it's something similar to this. Process like this seems to also happen in clay. Initial 'aging' happens from breakdown of organic material & water distribution but that part is over in a few weeks. Now, clay in Japan that's been aged over 50+ years by someone's grandfather, spectacular. Think really well aged bastille. 
And I'm a little concerned about the cream soap feeling sticky or waxy also. We shall see what it feels like in a few months.


----------



## dosco

rogue said:


> I'm using a variation of Debbie Thomas' from post #249 here.



Could you share more details please? There is no recipe to be found on post #249 from this thread.

Cheers-
Dave


----------



## Obsidian

There is a link in post 249 http://bubblelovesoap.weebly.com/blog


----------



## DeeAnna

"...I'd think the cream soap would be pretty waxy..."

FWIW, most of the "serious" shave soaps in this thread -- meaning the ones with a high % of stearic-palmitic -- look suspiciously like cream soaps, so to make much of a distinction between the two might be "the pot calling the kettle black." I've collected a bunch of cream soap recipes and tried to see what is common to all, but I've only personally made one batch of cream soap so far. That means I have some book learning on the matter, but not a lot of experience with cream soap. So take my thoughts with a grain of salt --

A cream soap has about 15% to 25% NaOH (average 20%) with the balance KOH. The lye solution concentration is lower than is the norm for bar soap recipes -- something between 15% and 25% (average 20%).

Lye discount is whatever you want it to be -- I'd suggest using a modest lye discount similar to what you would normally use for a bar soap recipe or a shave soap recipe. Older cream soap recipes seem to be intentionally lye heavy, and an added "supercream" of stearic acid was added after the cook to neutralize the lye excess as well as add thickness to the finished soap. I'm not convinced this neutralization method is necessary. Most of the modern recipes I've looked at are not formulated to be lye heavy.

After the soap is saponified, however you normally do it, and the soap tests to not be lye heavy, mix the paste by hand or with a mixer until the texture is smooth and creamy. As Lindy explains in her cream soap tutorial, a cream soap may never remain fluffy like whipped cream, but it will become softer and lighter in texture.

You can add additional glycerin and/or water to help mix the soap to a creamy consistency and modify the texture, although I gather it's important to add liquids with a light hand. If you aren't patient enough and add too much liquid too fast, a soap with too much liquid will be difficult to correct. If the texture is rather too soft for your purposes, it can be thickened by adding melted stearic acid to the warm soap, just like you thicken a lotion. I understand from experienced cream soap makers that too much stearic will make the soap waxy, so again a light hand is good. 

As the cream soap sits, it will change in appearance and become milder to the skin, so a cure time is good for cream soap just like bar soap.


----------



## dosco

Obsidian said:


> There is a link in post 249 http://bubblelovesoap.weebly.com/blog




Interesting. Thanks for clarifying that!

-Dave


----------



## rogue

Thanks DeAnna! 
I am clearly being philosophically hypothetical about soap aging & bubble quality change/structure. Since our soaps retain their glycerin therefore moisture they should never technically be 100% dry/solid. I'd love a chemist better than I to give me the reality on that  why milder over time that chemistry I got.


----------



## TVivian

I've read this thread over and over for a year and made this recipe over and over since I first read it. First time I made the original version, it was good, but the feedback was that it didn't stay hydrated long enough. I upped the glycerin. I tried Dee Anna's 2 step version, and then with 80/20 KOH NaOh, then With clay, then without.. Got determined to make respectable pucks out of this stuff! So I think I've finally tweaked it to where I'm very happy with the results! 
50% stearic 
40% CO 
10% Shea Butter 
50/50 KOH/ NaOH
  1 tsp bentonite
( made a 1# batch) 

I melted the CO and Shea, added the lye, brought to thick trace then added the hot, melted, stearic. As soon as the stearic was combined well, I turned off the heat added 2oz glycerin, 1tsp SL and essential oils. Got it into a Pringles can easily as it was still very fluid from not cooking. I will now let it cure for 4 weeks as if it were a CP soap (even though it does not zap ::crazy:  stuck it in the freezer for a couple of hours and was able to make pucks, YAY!! 

It lathers amazingly already!


----------



## reinbeau

TVivian said:


> As soon as the stearic was combined well, I turned off the heat added 2oz glycerin, 1tsp SL and essential oils. Got it into a Pringles can easily as it was still very fluid from not cooking. I will now let it cure for 4 weeks as if it were a CP soap (even though it does not zap ::crazy:  stuck it in the freezer for a couple of hours and was able to make pucks, YAY!!
> 
> It lathers amazingly already!


That sounds like a plan, I might try it myself (not cooking it all the way).  I've always thought even a regular HP batch would be fine if 'undercooked' but left to age like CP soap.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## ShaveRave

*Close to my recipe, looks great! Good job.*

:clap:





TVivian said:


> I've read this thread over and over for a year and made this recipe over and over since I first read it. First time I made the original version, it was good, but the feedback was that it didn't stay hydrated long enough. I upped the glycerin. I tried Dee Anna's 2 step version, and then with 80/20 KOH NaOh, then With clay, then without.. Got determined to make respectable pucks out of this stuff! So I think I've finally tweaked it to where I'm very happy with the results!
> 50% stearic
> 40% CO
> 10% Shea Butter
> 50/50 KOH/ NaOH
> 1 tsp bentonite
> ( made a 1# batch)
> 
> I melted the CO and Shea, added the lye, brought to thick trace then added the hot, melted, stearic. As soon as the stearic was combined well, I turned off the heat added 2oz glycerin, 1tsp SL and essential oils. Got it into a Pringles can easily as it was still very fluid from not cooking. I will now let it cure for 4 weeks as if it were a CP soap (even though it does not zap ::crazy:  stuck it in the freezer for a couple of hours and was able to make pucks, YAY!!
> 
> It lathers amazingly already!
> View attachment 12542


----------



## ShaveRave

*Shaving Soap - COFFEE scent*

Has anyone here ever done it?
Using strong *coffee *instead of water?

Please tell me it's possible! 

I figure if it comes out great with black tea, it could be done with coffee?


----------



## DeeAnna

No reason to believe it won't work -- people use coffee in regular soaps all the time. Coffee is basically water so if the idea turns you on, try it!


----------



## TRBeck

ShaveRave, there are a couple of artisan soapmakers on the wetshaving boards who sell soap made with coffee instead of water, so yes, it can definitely be done.


----------



## IrishLass

If you use strong coffee in place of your water (which is perfectly fine to do, btw), don't get too freaked out by the initial smell as it's reacting with the lye. Whenever I make coffee soap, my whole house smells like stinky dog breath for a few hours. Just thought I'd give you a heads-up. lol


IrishLass


----------



## rogue

Mmmmm coffee goats milk soap. Looks funny while you make it but so much lighter the next day. Latte for washing your bod, or whipping up shaving cream

Any one have experience with packing their shave stuff into sticks? Just curious. Contemplating this with my soywax for stearic switch.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

What makes you look at soy wax as a stearic swap?

As for the sticks, twist up ones? Should work as long as your cooked soap is stable enough ie not too fluid when you pour


----------



## cpacamper

IrishLass said:


> If you use strong coffee in place of your water (which is perfectly fine to do, btw), don't get too freaked out by the initial smell as it's reacting with the lye. Whenever I make coffee soap, my whole house smells like stinky dog breath for a few hours. Just thought I'd give you a heads-up. lol
> 
> 
> IrishLass



What does coffee bring to the party?  Scent?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Not overly - not like some of you 'muricans like your strong smelling soaps.

Caffeine is often used a skin treatment, but how effective it is is still not 100% http://www.academia.edu/4980787/Cosmetics_with_caffeine_real_benefits_versus_marketing_claims


----------



## dosco

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> What makes you look at soy wax as a stearic swap?



Fully hydrogenated soy oil is like 89% stearic acid. Similar deal with regards to fully hydrogenated castor oil (aka "Castor Wax").

So ... you would get a triglyceride high in stearic, and would get the benefit of full (and naturally occurring) glycerine after saponification.

I'm not sure I'd want to use soy wax because I'm concerned any remaining soybean oil would lend negative attributes to the finished soap. To mitigate this I would use castor wax. In fact I'm seriously considering an experiment with castor wax as an alternative to stearic acid.

Cheers-
Dave


----------



## DeeAnna

No scent from coffee in soap. I've tried it as part of a scrubby hand soap. Looks neat though -- the color survives the lye. 

As far as caffeine absorbing through the skin ... I will defer to The Gent's research. The only thing I can add is someone on SMF got the bright idea to add pure caffeine to his shave soap (it's discussed way earlier in this thread, if I remember correctly) but he didn't get any amazing results from the experiment (again, if I remember correctly). 

Sorry about the fuzzy headedness this a.m. ... I haven't finished my first cuppa joe. I'm all for caffeine ... in coffee beans ... preferably fresh ground, properly infused into hot water, and the hot infusion ingested with relish.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

DeeAnna said:


> .......I will defer to The Gent's research................


 
aka google first page, look for something that I like the sound of :shh:



dosco said:


> Fully hydrogenated soy oil is like 89% stearic acid. Similar deal with regards to fully hydrogenated castor oil (aka "Castor Wax").
> 
> So ... you would get a triglyceride high in stearic, and would get the benefit of full (and naturally occurring) glycerine after saponification.
> 
> I'm not sure I'd want to use soy wax because I'm concerned any remaining soybean oil would lend negative attributes to the finished soap. To mitigate this I would use castor wax. In fact I'm seriously considering an experiment with castor wax as an alternative to stearic acid.
> 
> Cheers-
> Dave


 
So it's not actually a wax as such?  That makes more sense.


----------



## dosco

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> So it's not actually a wax as such?  That makes more sense.



I don't have any in my possession, but soy wax and castor wax are supposed to be solids at room temperature ... much like stearic acid (which is sort of waxy if you think about it).

-Dave


----------



## TRBeck

I have some soy wax shave soap on hand at present. I did run into some hiccups, both in terms of getting the soy wax and in terms of potential for sales; then there's the soaping process, which is a bit different than with straight stearic.  I will post some detail later.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

dosco said:


> I don't have any in my possession, but soy wax and castor wax are supposed to be solids at room temperature ... much like stearic acid (which is sort of waxy if you think about it).
> 
> -Dave


 
CO and shea butter are also solid at room temp - but waxes they are not.


----------



## TRBeck

Soy wax is "waxy" in texture. The flakes look like bigger, slightly yellow stearic acid flakes. It is used in candles as a replacement for paraffin "wax." However, it is saponifiable, unlike jojoba or lanolin.


----------



## dosco

TRBeck said:


> I have some soy wax shave soap on hand at present. I did run into some hiccups, both in terms of getting the soy wax and in terms of potential for sales; then there's the soaping process, which is a bit different than with straight stearic.  I will post some detail later.



Tim:
I'm interested in the details, and look forward to your posts about this.

Regards-
Dave


----------



## dosco

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> CO and shea butter are also solid at room temp - but waxes they are not.



Right. I think the point is that "castor wax" or "soy wax" are names given to describe their outward and obvious physical characteristics. With that said they're not necessarily "wax" like the paraffin used to make candles. Although reading the wikipedia page about "wax" it's interesting to note the generic similarity between a "wax ester" and a triglyceride (when looking at the molecular model).

Wikipedia entry on Castor Wax.

Jedwards calls it "Castor Flakes."

-Dave


----------



## boyago

dosco said:


> Fully hydrogenated soy oil is like 89% stearic acid. Similar deal with regards to fully hydrogenated castor oil (aka "Castor Wax").
> 
> So ... you would get a triglyceride high in stearic, and would get the benefit of full (and naturally occurring) glycerine after saponification.
> 
> I'm not sure I'd want to use soy wax because I'm concerned any remaining soybean oil would lend negative attributes to the finished soap. To mitigate this I would use castor wax. In fact I'm seriously considering an experiment with castor wax as an alternative to stearic acid.
> 
> Cheers-
> Dave



I was looking at both fully hydrogenated soy and castor when I was inspired by this thread to start making shave soaps.  I was looking for ways to up the stearic content.  At the time i didn't realize that the "stearic" I was using was actually more like 49% stearic while I was assuming the soapcalc numbers for the lab grade where what I had (the soap suppliers "stearic" being more like 50/50 stearic palmitic as apposed to the soapcalc something like 99% stearic as explained earlier or in another thread).
I am also super curious about the "non-saps" or other stuff in the oils/waxes and what they bring to the party.  If you are experimenting please report back with any nuggets of wisdom you dig up.


----------



## rogue

I ran the numbers for a 1:1 switch & the stearic numbers actually looked high! 
I've used soy wax in some lip balms & solid perfumes with bees wax when I want less drag. Quite a bit softer. I suspect since it's fully hydrogenated the other soy oil issues shouldn't be there if most of the issues are due to it having those pesky unsaturated spots normally. 
My whole purpose Gent is to go completely Palm free. Nothing cuter than that.


----------



## claudep

I also tried coffee in the soap, smell did not survive the saponification. Added Coffee fragrance was horrific. 4 pounds of soap in the trash....


----------



## TRBeck

rogue said:


> My whole purpose Gent is to go completely Palm free. Nothing cuter than that.



Likewise.


----------



## luker

*Coconut Acid*

Hi all!!

The original listing for the MdC shaving soap lists 'coconut acid' as the oil used.

I looked up this term in the INCI database, and found that it refers to a mix of fatty acids to resemble or be just like a coconut oil profile.

Maybe we could use coconut MCTs or some palm oil or palm kernel oil, along with the coconut oil or even superfat (setting our soap calculators to 0 superfat for the in itial recipe) with MCTs.
 The possibilities seem intriguing!! 

And thoughts out there??


----------



## McSpin

*An attempt with a new formula*

My latest attempt is a dual lye shaving soap with stearic acid, CO and lard.  It turned out very well.  A definite step above my last one, which I also was happy with. This one gives an even more dense, creamy lather. I debated on adding clay to this one, but decided not to. I decided not to change too many things at once.  Clay will go into the next batch.

The photo below is a lather made within a minute or so of getting the soap out of the crock.  I made this by just swishing the brush in the crock before I washed it.  The photo was taken after letting it sit on the brush for 45 minutes.  It didn't change at all.  I add quite a bit of water to my lather so there are no stiff peaks.  I then shaved with it and it was extraordinary. Now, I'm going have to give away the remaining 2 lbs of the first batch.


----------



## SpringLily16

That is some AWESOME looking shaving soap! Congrats is in order here!! Ya did a great job!!


----------



## boyago

McSpin said:


> Now, I'm going have to give away the remaining 2 lbs of the first batch.



Yeah, I picked up a "jewelers scale" and forced myself to get comfortable making tiny batches so I could try different recipes and I am really glad I did.  Even the small amounts I've been making take quite a while to go through and there is are so many conflicting opinions on what makes a good shave soap that it's nice to not waste so much material testing out some of the comments you hear.


----------



## McSpin

boyago said:


> Yeah, I picked up a "jewelers scale" and forced myself to get comfortable making tiny batches so I could try different recipes and I am really glad I did.  Even the small amounts I've been making take quite a while to go through and there is are so many conflicting opinions on what makes a good shave soap that it's nice to not waste so much material testing out some of the comments you hear.



How small are your batches?

My scale reads in increments of 5 grams, so when the batch gets small, everything is a bit less precise.  My last batch was 8 oz of fats. That's still probably a year's worth of soap, and I'm not sure I should mix up less than that.  I have no trouble giving away my other soaps, but no one seems to even know what to do with a shaving soap where they have to create a lather on their own. I might have to start bundling a shaving brush with my give-a-ways.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

My scale does 0.1 gram and a good "jewelers scale" should do 0.01 gram.  the lowest I will go is a 100g batch with mine.  I did a few 50g batches and it wasn't ideal.

Don't forget, not matter how accurate the scale, you need to be able to pour that accurately on to the scale.


----------



## dosco

boyago said:


> ... and there are so many conflicting opinions on what makes a good shave soap that it's nice to not waste so much material testing out some of the comments you hear.



I'm curious about what you think the "conflicting opinions" are.

IMO a good soap is a good soap ... after that those that have used good soaps for a long while tend to be a bit more picky about their soaps. There are also a lot of gimmicks (so to speak) that I think some of the commercial manufacturers use to distinguish their products that really don't add much in the way of performance improvements (perhaps this is the source of "conflicting opinions").

Some of this, IMO, is also a function of the 80-20 'law.' If a soap is 80% of the way to goodness, for a lot of folks that's good enough. For the others, they put a lot of energy and focus into smaller improvements to "clean up" that last 20%. For me personally I think I'm evolving to the latter.

From where I sit I think the focus is a function of the intended market. If you're trying to appeal to those seeking a good and basic soap, focus on making something that has tallow/lard, CO, stearic, and is make with KOH ... and perhaps a basic fragrance. If you're trying to appeal to the more discerning user, you need to up your game and add extra glycerine, a moisturizing agent, and perhaps a more refined fragrance. But that's my 2 cents which admittedly isn't worth much.

-Dave


----------



## boyago

McSpin said:


> How small are your batches?
> 
> My scale reads in increments of 5 grams, so when the batch gets small, everything is a bit less precise.  My last batch was 8 oz of fats. That's still probably a year's worth of soap, and I'm not sure I should mix up less than that.  I have no trouble giving away my other soaps, but no one seems to even know what to do with a shaving soap where they have to create a lather on their own. I might have to start bundling a shaving brush with my give-a-ways.



Pretty much what the EG said.  I got a scale that has a resolution of .01g and I don't feel good about pushing the envelope past a 100g batch.
Yeah, I don't know allot of people who shave with with soap and brush.  I gave away a couple kits at Xmas but for those who weren't already brush shavers I needed to include a brush.  Which got a little spendy as I didn't want to gift supper cheap brushes.  And of course the father of one of the people I gifted to told me how great it was after the person I gave the soap and brush to told me how great it was and then left it behind when he returned to the east coast.  



dosco said:


> I'm curious about what you think the "conflicting opinions" are.



I'll paraphrase here with an examples of things I've read like "IMO olive oil has no place in a shave soap" or "keep your butters and hard oils really low because they kill lather".  I whipped up a batch that had a significant OO content and it was really bad.  My favorite shave soap so far has a ton of butters in it.



dosco said:


> Some of this, IMO, is also a function of the 80-20 'law.' If a soap is 80% of the way to goodness, for a lot of folks that's good enough. For the others, they put a lot of energy and focus into smaller improvements to "clean up" that last 20%. For me personally I think I'm evolving to the latter.
> 
> From where I sit I think the focus is a function of the intended market. If you're trying to appeal to those seeking a good and basic soap, focus on making something that has tallow/lard, CO, stearic, and is make with KOH ... and perhaps a basic fragrance. If you're trying to appeal to the more discerning user, you need to up your game and add extra glycerine, a moisturizing agent, and perhaps a more refined fragrance. But that's my 2 cents which admittedly isn't worth much.
> 
> -Dave


I'm not sure if you talking about shave soaps specifically, I think I mostly agree with you but I build my shave soaps to be shave soaps and my bath soaps to be bath soaps ect...  My best bath bar looks nothing like my best shave soap.


----------



## dosco

boyago said:


> I'll paraphrase here with an examples of things I've read like "IMO olive oil has no place in a shave soap" or "keep your butters and hard oils really low because they kill lather".  I whipped up a batch that had a significant OO content and it was really bad.  My favorite shave soap so far has a ton of butters in it.



Well, I wouldn't call that an "opinion" as much as a fact established through both experience and fact. But ... I get what you're saying.



> I'm not sure if you talking about shave soaps specifically, I think I mostly agree with you but I build my shave soaps to be shave soaps and my bath soaps to be bath soaps ect...  My best bath bar looks nothing like my best shave soap.



Yes I was thinking of shave soap, but I guess I was trying to nicely say that don't let the "contrasting opinions" define your soap. Good soap is good soap ... some users will value a basic soap that works well, and some expert users out there that want very specific things (and they will like your soap if it meets their requirements). BUT ... there are a lot of folks out there that don't really understand soap and will talk a lot (or even complain) about how your soap needs clay, caffeine, or something else that has little or no impact on the relative goodness of your soap. And "good soap" is pretty simple stuff.

Like I said, my 2 cents worth. YMMV yadda yadda.

-Dave


----------



## McSpin

dosco said:


> Some of this, IMO, is also a function of the 80-20 'law.' If a soap is 80% of the way to goodness, for a lot of folks that's good enough. For the others, they put a lot of energy and focus into smaller improvements to "clean up" that last 20%. For me personally I think I'm evolving to the latter.



I think that about sums up where I'm at. My last 3 shaving soaps have worked very well, but I'm finding the attempt to improve them, enjoyable.  I think it will be baby-steps the rest of the way.


----------



## songwind

claudep said:


> I also tried coffee in the soap, smell did not survive the saponification. Added Coffee fragrance was horrific. 4 pounds of soap in the trash....



I really liked the Brazilian Nut Coffee FO from Save On Scents. Nice, smooth coffee flavor with some nuttiness for interest.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

songwind said:


> I really liked the Brazilian Nut Coffee FO from Save On Scents. Nice, smooth coffee flavor with some nuttiness for interest.



See what you started?


----------



## songwind

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> See what you started?



Nuh uh! I'm a hapless victim of John from LA Shaving Soap Co.


----------



## LBussy

Yeah I blame John's thread too.


----------



## Dorymae

Ha! Hapless victims!  One word I would not use to describe the shaving dudes would be victims!  Sly, innovative, curious and maybe even opinionated at times but definitely not victims! :wink:


----------



## LBussy

Dorymae said:


> Ha! Hapless victims!  One word I would not use to describe the shaving dudes would be victims!  Sly, innovative, curious and maybe even opinionated at times but definitely not victims! :wink:


Yes, but among our own there are certain ... risks.:twisted:


----------



## rogue

If anyone is looking for relatively nice inexpensive brushes I get some from shoeboxshaveshop at the dot com. He's got a ridiculous selection of brushes if you are into that, but he's got really inexpensive Omegas that are really great brushes. The tiny (ok like half size midget) ones that are travel brushes are my fave. And they smell amazing!!


----------



## dosco

TRBeck said:


> I have some soy wax shave soap on hand at present. I did run into some hiccups, both in terms of getting the soy wax and in terms of potential for sales; then there's the soaping process, which is a bit different than with straight stearic.  I will post some detail later.



So it's been awhile ... would you be interested in sharing the differences between stearic and soy wax? I'm curious.

I think I can get soy wax at the Hobby Lobby nearby (it's where I get my stearic), but I'm not sure I want to spend the time or money on it if it sucks.

-Dave


----------



## TRBeck

Dave, I'll post something meaningful and hopefully some pics later today. We just moved, so the last couple of weeks have been hectic. You can get soy wax locally, but that's not what I used, so I can't comment on the Hobby Lobby stuff. I will see what I can put together when I'm home from work and the kids are in bed.


----------



## LBussy

According to some sources I've found, soy oil is 4% stearic acid, 10% palmitic acid.  I suppose the hydrogenation process produces more saturated fats - stearic being one (palmitic, lauric, myristic.)  You add the others as well.  I would not think that soy wax would ever be a straight replacement for SA.  With all the different blends out there for making candles, one would have to source it carefully and likely be out on the skinny branches exploring new territory.


----------



## rogue

this is how soapcalc sees soywax at 100% of the oils. This must be where they are quoting the numbers from. 
Small batch, it's only soap not major surgery. I'm happy learning from my mistakes  if it is really interesting I'm happy to mail it out to peoples for a funky soap trade


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

The good thing with a forum - we can all learn from one another's mistakes!  Looking forward to your feedback


----------



## DeeAnna

Lauric	0
Myristic	0
Palmitic	11
Stearic	5
Oleic	24
Ricinoleic	0
Linoleic	50
Linolenic	8

This is the fatty acid distribution from my soap calculator spreadsheet. Stearic is 18:0 (18 carbon atoms, 0 double bonds). Oleic is 18:1, linoleic is 18:2, and linolenic is 18:3. All 18 carbon atoms with 1 to 3 double bonds. 

Hydrogenation converts double bonds into single bonds so oleic, linoleic, and linolenic all convert to stearic in an ideal world. 

If you add up stearic + oleic + linoleic + linolenic => 87%. So theoretically one could end up with about 87% stearic and 11% palmitic if hydrogenating soy oil with this fatty acid profile. That jives with SoapCalc's idea of what soy wax is.

I'm a little doubtful that all soy wax products are that fully hydrogenated, but I'm quite content to be proven wrong.


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## dosco

DeeAnna said:


> I'm a little doubtful that all soy wax products are that fully hydrogenated, but I'm quite content to be proven wrong.



Certainly possible, even probable.

But ... what is the minimum threshold for conversion of some of the FFAs to stearic such that soy wax becomes solid? IMO that would be the floor for our conversation as well as soapmaking purposes.

-Dave


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## TRBeck

Sorry. I was a bit fried last night but can post some thoughts now. I took pics but don't have them. I have made two batches of soy wax shave soap. In both instances I simply subbed it for stearic in my standard shave soap recipe. I did not use as much glycerin as usual, either, since this is hydrogenated oil and not straight stearic. Naturally the different SAP number altered the amount of lye used. I used the SAP number for fully hydrogenated soy wax from SoapCalc and figured it would be fine since it is barely different to the SAP number for partially hydrogenated.

Purchasing - There are many soy waxes from which to choose. Many must be bought in quantity, however. If you check the MSDS on a given soy wax, it will generally simply say "Hydrogenated Soybean Oil," but some will mention "botanicals." Since the target market is generally candlemakers, the botanicals are generally added, presumably, to alter the melt point or the behavior of the wax when hot. Melt points on soy waxes vary wildly, from around 115F to 170F. Pure stearic is roughly 168F IIRC, so I always aim for the high end of the melt point range if I can. I assume that lower melt point soy wax is less fully hydrogenated, although as I mentioned, the "other botanicals" may affect melt point, too. Either way, the highest melt point waxes generally can't be bought in small quantities. I did find a fully hydrogenated soy wax from a US supplier, but when I inquired about purchasing, I was told the minimum quantity would be 2000 lbs.:shock: So, yeah, maybe a group buy thing there.

Aesthetics - The soy waxes I bought are very different to one another. Both are beige in color, as is the resulting soap from each. One has much finer flakes and basically looks like beige stearic. The other has large flakes, almost the size of cereal flakes. The finished soap is beige, a bit tackier in feel than stearic-based soap, almost like a cross between a candle and a shave soap. One of the soaps has a bright sheen to it; it looks - for lack of a better term - waxy.

Process - Melt point is lower, so the time involved is less, which is nice. I'm interested in soy wax so I can avoid palm, but it's a nice fringe benefit if the process is faster. There is no "instant mashed potatoes" like there is with stearic. Trace actually took some time with one of the waxes, maybe two minutes with the stick blender. With the other, trace was very quick. Gel/cook took longer than with straight stearic, too, of course, and in fact the second soap - the one that took less time to trace - took almost an hour to cook. When I watched it react to the lye, I thought it must have a higher stearic content than the first wax, but it sure didn't behave that way during saponification.

Lather/Shave - One of the two soy soaps provides lather that is not far off from straight stearic - thick, slick, and quick to come together. It shaves well, and if I didn't have stearic soap to compare to, I would be perfectly happy with it. However, it is not quite as stable as stearic-based soap lather, perhaps due to whatever unsaturated fats remain in it and/or the botanicals. The second soap is a shade poorer in performance and lather stability. By my second pass the lather was just so-so.

1st soap - small wax particles, slow to trace, moderately slow to gel, looks like a beige stearic soap, lathers very well

2nd soap - giant wax flakes, quick to trace, very slow to gel, looks like a waxy soap-candle hybrid, lathers okay

This is by no means an exhaustive report. I haven't messed with water amounts, haven't tried other waxes, haven't waited to see how the soaps do over time (they are just a few weeks old).

What I like about soy wax - faster melt time, theoretically slightly cheaper, palm-free

What I don't like - unknown level of hydrogenation (in most cases), uncertain of approval for use in soap/cosmetics, producers are not forthcoming about the proprietary makeup of the wax

I will try to add pictures later.


----------



## rogue

I believe what I have is from NG. It's also white fat flakes but they list as 100% soy with bring to melt at @185. They claim no added any thing and very cheap. We shall see.


----------



## TRBeck

It says to bring it to 185 before adding colors, but it will melt well before that. The MSDS lists melt point as 120-125.


----------



## LBussy

Fantastic info!  Thanks for the chemistry behind it, and Dave that's an excellent question.  If anyone has access to PubMED (I did, I need to see why it's not working) here's an article that may help:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16881709


----------



## rogue

LBussy said:


> Fantastic info!  Thanks for the chemistry behind it, and Dave that's an excellent question.  If anyone has access to PubMED (I did, I need to see why it's not working) here's an article that may help:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16881709




I can't get beyond the abstract but I'm reading that as they are saying as they see iodine values dropping from either hydrog. Or esterification (or both) melt temps rise. Which is expected. Saturated fats such as bovine butter tend to be solid at higher temp than un saturated ones, i.e. Fixed oils corn, peanut, soy. 

Sometimes I think that I'm overthinking all this stuff. Just want to make pretty glittery cookie scented soap for my inner 10 year old.


----------



## dosco

TRBeck said:


> I have made two batches of soy wax shave soap. In both instances I simply subbed it for stearic in my standard shave soap recipe.


 
Thanks for sharing, very interesting.

If you can post pics I think that might also be interesting, but if not...no worries.

Regards-
Dave



LBussy said:


> Fantastic info! Thanks for the chemistry behind it, and Dave that's an excellent question. If anyone has access to PubMED (I did, I need to see why it's not working) here's an article that may help:
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16881709


 
Lee:
Have you made any shave soap with "the real deal SA" yet? I'm wondering how it compares to the stuff made with the SA+palmitic that we appear to have been using?

Regards-
Dave


----------



## Dorymae

I want to know if the 100% stearic yields instant seize like I imagine it would. I'm thinking there is a reason it is cut with palmitic.


----------



## dosco

Dorymae said:


> I want to know if the 100% stearic yields instant seize like I imagine it would. I'm thinking there is a reason it is cut with palmitic.



What difference do you think it would make between "50% stearic" (what we appear to be normally using) and "pure stearic" ...?

-Dave


----------



## Dorymae

dosco said:


> What difference do you think it would make between "50% stearic" (what we appear to be normally using) and "pure stearic" ...?
> 
> -Dave



Ever heard of soap on a stick? Well I imagine that 100 percent stearic would totally solidify making it impossible to work with.  I don't know - but it is what I imagine.


----------



## TRBeck

The thing about 100% stearic is that it is about 170 degrees when it melts, so the heat keeps everything pretty fluid when stick blending, especially if your lye solution is pretty hot, too. Watch the volcano, though. I bought a bunch of real-deal stearic and detect minimal difference if any from the other shave soaps I have made. Palmitic and stearic do similar things for shave soap, anyway, and if you soap with pure palmitic, it is not hugely different to the stearic or the palmitic/stearic blend. Work hot, full water, watch for a volcano, and be ready for almost immediate saponification.


----------



## LBussy

dosco said:


> Lee:
> Have you made any shave soap with "the real deal SA" yet? I'm wondering how it compares to the stuff made with the SA+palmitic that we appear to have been using?


Sorry, I missed the question originally.  Yes, it turns out what I have been using is tech grade stearic acid.  They guy I bought it from found the bag and sent me a pic with the "proper" CAS number.  When I purchased it originally it was for fireworks (it is a relatively low-temp fuel perfect for blue stars) so I wasn't looking at it with the critical eye of a guy trying to make soap.



Dorymae said:


> I want to know if the 100% stearic yields instant seize like I imagine it would. I'm thinking there is a reason it is cut with palmitic.


It's not cut with palmitic so much as the manufacturing process to create that product is much easier/cheaper than that which creates "pure" stearic acid.  The original product has both in it so they just remove most of what is not palmitic or stearic.

I intend to video at least parts of my process for an instructional I am going to put together.  So, you can see what happens up close and personal.

To a HP soaper using SA is probably not any more "lively" than anything else.  To a CP soaper it might be described as soap on a stick.  I think it's all about your point of view.  I don't believe anyone that ever tells me they do true room temp CP with SA but I'm from (in) Missouri.


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## DeeAnna

"...I don't believe anyone that ever tells me they do true room temp CP with SA but I'm from (in) Missouri...."

Although I'm a born and bred Iowan, I lived in Missourah for 12 years. A bit of the "Show Me" philosophy must have rubbed off on me -- I don't believe this either.


----------



## BrambleNBumble

*Question*

My husband has a coworker that wants me to make up a shaving soap and I have tossed around the idea for a while but never knew anyone who would use it.  My question is a simple one, does this soap turn hard like a CP soap or does it stay soft?  He also asked about a shaving cream but I haven't seen a way to make some yet.


----------



## shunt2011

BrambleNBumble said:


> My husband has a coworker that wants me to make up a shaving soap and I have tossed around the idea for a while but never knew anyone who would use it. My question is a simple one, does this soap turn hard like a CP soap or does it stay soft? He also asked about a shaving cream but I haven't seen a way to make some yet.


 
The recipe as written stays relatively pliable.  It's not hard but not super soft either.   You do have the ability to tweak it.  I would recommend reading the entire thread (for the most part) as many have tried different tweaks and have reported back on them.  It's a pretty good read.

To make shaving cream you would want to probably start with cream soap but I don't know much from there on that one


----------



## Jackofhearts

I just realized that the last batch I made of shave soap I forgot to add glycerin!  Think I should rebatch it and let the FO just disappear? or should I start again?
I've never rebatched but it sounds like a nightmare.  Thoughts?

Thanks,
Jack


----------



## DeeAnna

Bramble -- the soap has a waxy Playdough consistency. You can use the recipe to make a shaving cream (croap?) using the method for making "cream soap" (see Lindy's recent tutorial on making cream soap), but I'd try the original version first. The cream soap texture has some issues, IMO. I like the original version well enough. It's firm enough after curing to keep its shape as a bar so you can use in the shower, but it's soft enough a person can press it into a mug if that's how they use shave soap.

Jack -- Just try it the way it is and see what you think. If you decide you want to add the glycerin, just knead it into the soap a bit at a time, just like you would knead bread dough. The soap will be difficult to knead at first, but it will soften up as you work with it, especially if it's not fully dried/cured. That's how I have added fragrance to this type of shave soap.


----------



## MorpheusPA

I use a great deal of soybean wax in some soaps, which isn't SA by any stretch but is 87% stearic fatty acid and 11% palmitic (what the other 2% is, I don't know).  

So this may be helpful to you, but please ignore me if not.  You may also mutter "idiot" as you close the thread, but please don't tell me you did so.

Of course, it has a very high melt point (about 120) and can't be soaped at room temp.  It accelerates, but less than you might think it would even soaping at 130+.

While it produces a rock hard bar in and of itself, lather is extremely spare.  It does seem to sustain lather pretty well in other oils when used at 10% of the recipe, however.

Used at 15% or over, the bar starts to look waxy.  Sometimes, that's an advantage.  The bar in the shower has 15% soy wax in it, produces good lather (the remainder is mostly olive with normal levels of coconut, plus a lot of honey and sodium lactate), has a shiny look to it, and is lasting forever.

I made a 40% soy wax bar with mostly coconut and some palm as the remainder for use as a pot-scrubber bar.  The soy seriously extends the lifespan of the bars which would otherwise be short, but does reduce the lather.  They still work beautifully, they set up fast and hard, and in that case, the waxy look actually works well.  I used red mica to give them a little depth and the waxy translucency works perfectly with that.


----------



## LBussy

LBussy said:


> I intend to video at least parts of my process for an instructional I am going to put together.  So, you can see what happens up close and personal.


I did get this done.  Here it is (and I am that much closer to being done with my magnum opus.)

https://youtu.be/i_hkIEWfiJQ

Yes yes yes ... danger!  I know, I even fessed up to no protective gear on the video notes.  I had a sink full of cold water inches away and I'll never do it again.

The lye water here is about 110 and the oils were ~160.  When I finished stirring the temp was 185.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Okay, that I can kind of take - but what's with the 'adult movie' music?


----------



## dosco

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Okay, that I can kind of take - but what's with the 'adult movie' music?



??

The music didn't strike me as 'pr0n music.'

LOL.

-Dave


----------



## LBussy

It definitely had a "brown chicken-brown cow" vibe.


----------



## TRBeck

Jackofhearts said:


> I just realized that the last batch I made of shave soap I forgot to add glycerin!  Think I should rebatch it and let the FO just disappear? or should I start again?
> I've never rebatched but it sounds like a nightmare.  Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jack



Jack,

The soap will be usable and probably actually great. I have only recently taken to using added glycerin again in my shave soaps. I used it for the first dozen or so batches I made a couple of years back, then dropped it as I didn't think it was doing much for the lather. Still don't. What it does, though, is help with keeping the lather well-hydrated for the duration of the shave. I have 50+ homemade shave soaps in my closet, and no more than a third of them have added glycerin. All lather beautifully.

That said, rebatching isn't a nightmare, not even particularly difficult. If you've hot processed, you're not going to find it problematic. I wouldn't bother, but if you do: add less water than you think you must - I'd aim for about 3-5% of the total soap weight, especially since you're also adding glycerin. Break up your soap as much as you can before starting. It'll go soft pretty quickly IME with rebatched shave soap. Pour while it's still pretty hot as rebatches can sometimes be...er...less smooth.

It ain't no thing. But as I said, I wouldn't bother. Give the shave soap a whirl and I think you'll find the lather is excellent, perhaps even a shade denser than without glycerin. Just saying.


----------



## Rahstyle

RhondaJ said:


> So I tweaked and experimented a bit tonight and switched things up
> 
> I used the following in a small 10oz batch with a 3% lye discount
> 
> 50% Stearic Acid
> 24% Tallow
> 20% Coconut
> 6% Castor
> 
> 70% KOH, 30% NaOH - dissolved in 2oz water - remainder of liquid was split between Aloe Gel from my plants in the yard and coconut milk
> 
> 1.5 oz glycerin added after cook.
> 2% superfat after cook using 1/2 cocoa butter / 1/2 shea butter
> 
> Plopped it into the mold and let it cool and setup, as soon as I could cut it I snatched the rough end piece and checked the lather. It lathered a lot faster and easier than the test batch I did the other day with all tallow and no coconut, but definitely feels slicker and creamier than the coconut only I did the first time.
> 
> Not drying at all for being so fresh, I'm definitely feeling this new recipe
> 
> Don't mind the bad photos, I'm not a great photographer and my phone hates me tonight!
> 
> First photo - pre loaded the brush for about 10 seconds then used my hand to build the lather, looks very dense and is sooooo creamy
> 
> Second photo - the brush 20 minutes later, it's staying firm.




Ok so I have a couple questions about this.  

1) Did you used a lye discount and added superfat? If so, we not just increase discount or superfat addition? 

2) Is the superfact percentage is of the total weight?

3) If used 8oz SA, 3.84oz of BT, 3.2oz of CO72, .96oz of Castor.  How do I figure out how much water and lye to use?

Thanks


----------



## LBussy

Rahstyle said:


> Ok so I have a couple questions about this.


No way you read all those pages already!  :razz:



Rahstyle said:


> 1) Did you used a lye discount and added superfat? If so, we not just increase discount or superfat addition?


The two are the same really, it's just a matter of how/when you do it.  Even though calculators say "superfat" it really means it has figured it as a lye discount.



Rahstyle said:


> 2) Is the superfact percentage is of the total weight?


It is generally figured as % of the total oil weight.



Rahstyle said:


> 3) If used 8oz SA, 3.84oz of BT, 3.2oz of CO72, .96oz of Castor.  How do I figure out how much water and lye to use?


Here, go play with the calculator and you will be able to do endless "what ifs":

http://soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp

Change the Lye to KOH and 90% at the very least, and the rest should be close enough.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

LBussy said:


> .......................The two are the same really, it's just a matter of how/when you do it.  Even though calculators say "superfat" it really means it has figured it as a lye discount.
> ................



Not quite, as you say the difference is how/when which is a pretty big difference - if I make a 95gram batch of soap with a 0% lye discount and then add in 5 grams of oil after the cook, I have 5% of the oils unsaponified which is a 5% superfat BUT is that a 5% lye discount?  Maybe not - if I calculate the lye used agains the lye needed to saponify the whole 100grams, it might well be a difference of more or less than 5% depending on the oil used as superfat.

In CP, the two are interchangeable.  In HP, not always so.




LBussy said:


> No way you read all those pages already!  :razz:


----------



## Rahstyle

Believe it or not, I read it all; there's only like 6-8 per page   Days off are great, if I wasn't reading this I'd probably just be playing xbox 

I tried the calc a few times last night and today, but I couldn't figure out what to adjust for #3

Thanks for the quick reply!

EDIT: HAHA I've tried the calc a dozen times since last night and couldn't figure out why after hitting calculate I couldn't see lye and water concentrations.  Pffft, then i saw the VIEW button. DOH!


----------



## LBussy

The water and lye is calculated and displayed when you hit the "View or Print recipe" button.

Craig I guess you are right there.  What I was meaning was that a superfat in the way it is calculated with calculators (like Soapcalc) is really applied as a lye discount.  Whether that means 5% less lye or not is different as you say.  I am definitely guilty of not supplying ALL of the information there.

The impact of "superfat" in CP is definitely not the same as HP ... but we don't want his head to explode yet, do we?  :razz:

ETA:  Thought about this as I sit here eating my lunch.  A lye discount really does equal a superfat as far as ratios go.  Not quite sure how I confused myself in the 4th sentence there.  The application is where it's different and the devil is in the details.  So:  A 5% superfat leaves a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap = A 5% lye discount equals a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap.  Provided one is doing CP and/or adding all the oils at the start, there's no difference.

I think ... until I change my mind again.


----------



## DeeAnna

"... A 5% superfat leaves a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap = A 5% lye discount equals a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap. Provided one is doing CP and/or adding all the oils at the start, there's no difference...."

Yes, that's correct. An addition of 5% extra fat by weight may not be a 5% lye discount in this one circumstance -- when you add that fat by weight to an HP soap after the cook AND the saponification value of the added fat is different than the average saponification value of the fats used to make the soap. In that case, the 5% added superfat may not represent a 5% lye discount -- it might be 4% or 6% or whatever. 

As far as the commercial soap making industry is concerned, any fat remaining in the soap after saponification ... regardless of the mathematical gyrations you do to figure the amount ... is called superfat and the soap is called a superfatted soap.

Just sayin'..... :shifty:


----------



## Rahstyle

DeeAnna said:


> "... A 5% superfat leaves a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap = A 5% lye discount equals a 5% surplus of oil in the finished soap. Provided one is doing CP and/or adding all the oils at the start, there's no difference...."
> 
> Yes, that's correct. An addition of 5% extra fat by weight may not be a 5% lye discount in this one circumstance -- when you add that fat by weight to an HP soap after the cook AND the saponification value of the added fat is different than the average saponification value of the fats used to make the soap. In that case, the 5% added superfat may not represent a 5% lye discount -- it might be 4% or 6% or whatever.
> 
> As far as the commercial soap making industry is concerned, any fat remaining in the soap after saponification ... regardless of the mathematical gyrations you do to figure the amount ... is called superfat and the soap is called a superfatted soap.
> 
> Just sayin'..... :shifty:



So adding in fat at the end vs a an actual lye discount won't mathematically equal out all the time...correct?

Would there ever be a reason to do both?


----------



## LBussy

Rahstyle said:


> So adding in fat at the end vs a an actual lye discount won't mathematically equal out all the time...correct?
> 
> Would there ever be a reason to do both?


You're in a strange land here.

So what I do is add the superfatted amount after HP cooking.  So the recipe calls for the total of oils at 5% superfat.  I reserve an amount equal to that 5% for addition with the fragrance after cook.

No there's no reason to do both because they are the same ... or in a way you are doing both ... gah!  Head explodes.  :razz:

Hopefully that makes sense.

Now you will ask the next obvious question ... I'll wait till it strikes you but I am pretty sure what it is.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

DeeAnna, myself and another user went round in circles for a while on this.  We didn't really see eye to eye, but we all love each other regardless.

Suffice to say, I refer it in CP as either a superfat or a lye discount.  In HP, if I have added something odd in at the end I only ever say superfat, never lye discount.


----------



## LBussy

The argument reminds me of the "sharp" vs "keen" arguments on B&B about razors. 

When you get to that level, the good news is you understand it.  We just need the context when we discuss it.


----------



## Rahstyle

LBussy said:


> You're in a strange land here.
> 
> So what I do is add the superfatted amount after HP cooking.  So the recipe calls for the total of oils at 5% superfat.  I reserve an amount equal to that 5% for addition with the fragrance after cook.
> 
> No there's no reason to do both because they are the same ... or in a way you are doing both ... gah!  Head explodes.  :razz:
> 
> Hopefully that makes sense.
> 
> Now you will ask the next obvious question ... I'll wait till it strikes you but I am pretty sure what it is.



Ok so lets say I 50/50 SA and CO and reserve 5% CO til the end.  Do you ever toss that 5% and sub in another fat like shea butter or something instead?


----------



## LBussy

Yes sir ... and if you can wait a few days I'll send you the whole story.  If you can't wait - something like what dosco posted is a lot better.  Sub out some shea, lanolin, coco butter, whatever and use that for superfat.

If you want to start NOW and learn to appreciate what small changes do, follow Songwind's advice to go 52% stearic and 48% coconut oil.  Figure the recipe for 5% superfat and use only KOH.  For your first try just make it easy on yourself and cook the whole thing all at once.  Since you are not using any particularly spectacular moisturizing oils and the stearic will undoubtedly saponify in the first three seconds anyway, you get the same effect for less investment of effort.

Add about  3 Tbsp/lb of glycerin before, after, in the lye water, doesn't matter.  That will be as good or better than any veg shaving soap you have tried and you will have learned a lot by making it.

ETA:  Attached is a 100g scaled version of this recipe that will give you an idea - and also may help figure out SoapCalc.  I made this in a small screw-top food storage container floated in a saucepan of simmering water.  The container doubled as the container for use - perfect size. 

View attachment MdeC Clone.pdf


----------



## Rahstyle

LBussy said:


> Yes sir ... and if you can wait a few days I'll send you the whole story.  If you can't wait - something like what dosco posted is a lot better.  Sub out some shea, lanolin, coco butter, whatever and use that for superfat.
> 
> If you want to start NOW and learn to appreciate what small changes do, follow Songwind's advice to go 52% stearic and 48% coconut oil.  Figure the recipe for 5% superfat and use only KOH.  For your first try just make it easy on yourself and cook the whole thing all at once.  Since you are not using any particularly spectacular moisturizing oils and the stearic will undoubtedly saponify in the first three seconds anyway, you get the same effect for less investment of effort.
> 
> Add about  3 Tbsp/lb of glycerin before, after, in the lye water, doesn't matter.  That will be as good or better than any veg shaving soap you have tried and you will have learned a lot by making it.
> 
> ETA:  Attached is a 100g scaled version of this recipe that will give you an idea - and also may help figure out SoapCalc.  I made this in a small screw-top food storage container floated in a saucepan of simmering water.  The container doubled as the container for use - perfect size.



I'll definitely wait as I haven't ordered my KOH, SA, and glycerin yet from Voyageur


----------



## LBussy

Rahstyle said:


> I'll definitely as I haven't ordered my KOH, SA, and glycerin yet from Voyageur


Oh you're in Canada?  Yeah you are in the right place.  More than a few here seem to be from "up nort" and can help you find your supplies as well.


----------



## Rahstyle

LBussy said:


> Oh you're in Canada?  Yeah you are in the right place.  More than a few here seem to be from "up nort" and can help you find your supplies as well.



Luckily my wife has a massive young living oil collection and makes lip balms, scrubs, bath bombs, and soap for fun.  She's got a whack of stuff I can snag from that and her new directions supply.  Other than that I found the caustics at voyageur and sapphire blue.  just perusing the catalog as we speak


----------



## DeeAnna

"...So adding in fat at the end vs a an actual lye discount won't mathematically equal out all the time...correct? Would there ever be a reason to do both? ..."

Yes. Aaaaannnd no.

"...Suffice to say, I refer it in CP as either a superfat or a lye discount. In HP, if I have added something odd in at the end I only ever say superfat, never lye discount. ..."

Yes, I get that. I understand the distinction between excess fat added with a lye discount method versus excess fat added with a superfat method, and I make  that distinction too. But my point is this -- after the fact, my bar of soap has excess fat. HOW the fat got there is moot to the consumer -- agreed, this is not moot to you and me, but it certainly is to the consumer. 

The excess fat in that soap has to be called by a name that's intelligible to consumers, whether the soap is sold, used by the family, or given away. To call the excess fat in a finished soap as a "lye discount" makes no sense even if the method by which it was added is the lye discount method. Industry calls it "superfat" regardless of how it got there -- "super" in the sense of "above" or "in excess" and "fat" ... well cuz it's fat. 

That's the only point I was trying to make.


----------



## LBussy

Yeah but what's better, Ford or Chevy?


----------



## dosco

LBussy said:


> Yeah but what's better, Ford or Chevy?



Haha.

So, tell me, do you think torque wins races or horsepower?

(snicker)

-Dave


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Harrison Ford or Chevy Chase?  Well, both have their moments as actors.........................


----------



## LBussy

Depends on the race!  We talking hill climbing, drag racing, dirt track, or circle track!  

Of course which of those are the best is easy, drag racing!

Um ... soap.


----------



## Rahstyle

So is there a good resource out there for research the benefits of each fat?  Possibly ones that also mentions common applications for them as well?

Such as use A for these types of soaps and B for these other types, etc..


----------



## kchaystack

Rahstyle said:


> So is there a good resource out there for research the benefits of each fat?  Possibly ones that also mentions common applications for them as well?
> 
> Such as use A for these types of soaps and B for these other types, etc..



http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/soap-making-oils.html#.VR6Fv_nF98E

Of course opinions are going to vary widely.  But this is  a good start.


----------



## reinbeau

dosco said:


> Haha.
> 
> So, tell me, do you think torque wins races or horsepower?
> 
> (snicker)
> 
> -Dave


Torque off the line


----------



## Rahstyle

kchaystack said:


> http://www.soap-making-essentials.com/soap-making-oils.html#.VR6Fv_nF98E
> 
> Of course opinions are going to vary widely.  But this is  a good start.



thanks!


----------



## vmakkers

Should I order liquid KOH or flake KOH for this recipe?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

If you order liquid, make sure that you know what % solution it is so you know how much to use. Also, with any sort of lye in any form (beads, flakes, liquid etc) it's worth knowing the purity


----------



## LBussy

Hard to say since we don't know where you are or who you may be ordering from.  If you are in the US check prices at The Lye Guy and Essentials depot.  I've only ever ordered flake.


----------



## vmakkers

LBussy said:


> Hard to say since we don't know where you are or who you may be ordering from.  If you are in the US check prices at The Lye Guy and Essentials depot.  I've only ever ordered flake.



Thanks for the help. I'm in California and was looking into buying some from a local chemical company, Sierra Chemical Company, and they offer KOH in a bunch of different forms. Liquid and flakes all at varying percentages. I think I'm going to just pick up some in flake form. Thanks again for the suggestions


----------



## LBussy

*Generally* getting lye from a soap or bio-diesel supplier will be less expensive.  Technical grade, while arguably a better risk for purity, is likely a bit more.


----------



## FlybyStardancer

Okay, after planning for a year... I'm FINALLY going to do this! I measured out the stearic tonight, but I'm going to soap tomorrow (my one day off this week). I need the pick-me-up, since this week got off to a crummy start. 

And I started rereading the thread and noticed one suggestion about making sticks out of the soft soap by putting it in containers... Well, I have a bunch of lotion bar/deodorant containers... I might load one up with the soap just for a personal test, and then make the log/pucks out of the rest.

I would like some advice... Normally I add citric acid to my water before the lye, to make sodium citrate. Well, I'm planning on going the 80%KOH/20%NaOH, and I'm adding the extra lye to neutralize it to the NaOH amount... Should I add the NaOH first and wait for it to cool down before adding the KOH, to make sure the citric reacts with the NaOH specifically?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

That is an interesting point that has made me realise that I am a bit of a twit sometimes!

I split my CA between the two lots of lye water (KOH and naOH) which was very fiddly. I will in future, and suggest here, that you add all of the CA to the lye water for the NaOH and add the NaOH in to that rather than adding the CA to the oils.  I don't know how long it takes for the CA and NaOH to make Sodium Citrate, but hopefully it'll be ready by the time you add your lye in to the oils

That said, I don't think that potassium citrate would be a bad thing..............................


----------



## LBussy

I think those salts will find the balance they like eventually no matter which lye you react them with.  If the ions "migrate" from one to the other you still have your balance at the molecular level, so just do what's easy.

Speaking of which, "easy" is not worrying about two different lyes.  You can make a moldable shave soap with KOH only.  I prefer soaps made like that as the sodium salts just don't seem to hydrate/protect as well.  No matter what though, it will be a fine soap equal to most of the better ones available commercially.

Craig I agree - potassium citrate, potassium lactate ... they seem to work well in my recent tests.   I need to do more experiments with the sodium salts so I can compare, but the beneficial chelating effects are there in potassium soaps without having to use sodium.


----------



## dosco

LBussy said:


> Craig I agree - potassium citrate, potassium lactate ... they seem to work well in my recent tests.   I need to do more experiments with the sodium salts so I can compare, but the beneficial chelating effects are there in potassium soaps without having to use sodium.



So, are you suggesting to add the Citric Acid to the lye water after all of the NaOH and KOH have been dissolved?

(relax, don't worry, and have a homebrew!)

That would certainly make things simple.

-Dave


----------



## LBussy

I am.

You would still have to account for the addition in either the KOH or the NaOH but it would not matter a whole lot which one - it would change your balance slightly by some unknown factor but the amount of neutralization and lye efficacy would remain unchanged.


----------



## DeeAnna

"... I don't know how long it takes for the CA and NaOH to make Sodium Citrate..."

It doesn't take very long, Gent. What's happening is the citric acid is mostly disassociating (breaking apart) into a citrate ion and a hydrogen ion. When you dissolve NaOH in water you're doing much the same thing -- the sodium hydroxide dissociates into a sodium ion and a hydroxide ion -- and that's pretty fast, hey? Same with the citric acid.

When the two are mixed, some of the citrate and sodium ions will quickly buddy up, but it's a loose association of ionic acquaintances. They will mingle, partner briefly, and split amicably with no marriage contracts being signed. 

I tend to talk about NaOH + citric acid => sodium citrate as if it's a permanent connection between the two ions. This kind of black and white explanation is an introductory way of explaining these things -- if I get too deep into the techno-geek-speak, people's eyes glaze over and rightly so. But in reality, the actual situation is rather more chemically polyamorous and flexible.

"...I think those salts will find the balance they like eventually no matter which lye you react them with. If the ions "migrate" from one to the other you still have your balance at the molecular level, so just do what's easy...."

That's my suggestion too. Whether you add the KOH first and NaOH second or vice versa or both at once, it's no matter. The citrate will mingle happily as it likes.

"...You would still have to account for the addition in either the KOH or the NaOH..."

Spot on perfect advice -- I agree with Lee.


----------



## vyadha

WHOA!!!! Looks like I found Shangri La! Ive been making soaps for a few years and only recently decided to try to make some shaving soaps. 

Had my first, second, third and fourth siezes ever in a few hours.

From what Ive found so far in this thread and on this forum is that using NaOH doesnt work that well with the hard fats Ive been using. Also the CP may not  be the best.

So tomorrow Ill go to my workshop and grab some KOH and try the following recipe:

55% Tallow
25% Stearic
20% Coconut

Id like to add a tiny bit of lanolin if I get this batch down.
Thanks all, back to reading this whole thread


----------



## DeeAnna

Your basic problem is the stearic acid. It reacts instantly with lye, whether NaOH or KOH, so don't expect any improvement in the seizing issue by switching to KOH. What you're getting with KOH is higher water solubility and an overall softer soap. 

Bottom line -- Any soap with any fatty acid as a main ingredient needs to be hot processed. 

You could theoretically cold-process a shave soap recipe with only fats, even high-stearic fats. But it's a challenge to get enough stearic to make a decent a shave soap with just fats. Some people do it and I'm not saying it can't be done, but many use additional stearic acid instead to bump the stearic acid content in the finished soap. 

I'm not quite sure why you're saying "NaOH doesnt work that well with the hard fats Ive been using." Why wouldn't NaOH work with hard fats?


----------



## vyadha

Thanks for the reply Deeanna. That's my ignorance talking about NaOH. Even though I've been soaping for awhile, I haven't branched out into different fats or HP. 
So I'm like a 37 year old freshman. I'm going to try rebatching the stuff I made today and then some hot process this weekend. Thanks a bunch.


----------



## DeeAnna

I was surprised the first time I used stearic acid in a soap too -- it ~is~ amazing how fast it reacts! Don't feel awkward about it -- we're all rookies in our "freshman" year when we try something new! 

The only thing I could think about in regards to your comment about using NaOH with hard fats is that it can be harder to make a proper lather for shaving with an all-NaOH soap. But this type of soap does have the advantage of not being soft and possibly even sticky, so it travels well. And sometimes KOH is near impossible for some people to get, depending on the country they live in, so they're limited to making a shave soap with NaOH. 

The old recipes (late 1800s, early 1900s) for shave soap often called for all hard fats -- tallow and coconut oil for example -- and were also made with NaOH, so this type of soap has some history behind it.


----------



## LBussy

DeeAnna said:


> The old recipes (late 1800s, early 1900s) for shave soap often called for all hard fats -- tallow and coconut oil for example


As do most of the "new" recipes.  :wave:


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

One thing that does surprise me, having read about it today on a particular shaving forum well known to us, is that Mama Bear's is so well loved.  (The fact that it is touted as handmade is another matter)


----------



## Lindy

As much as I love Mama Bear her soaps are MP.  But she has done a fantastic job with her marketing and building a loyal customer base.


----------



## FlybyStardancer

I finally did it! Made the shaving soap today! Did an 80/20 mix of KOH and NaOH. I ended up putting soap in two lotion sticks, and then made the rest into a very rough log to cool. Used my little sampler bottle of BB Tobacco and Bay Leaf to scent it.it was only about 1.7% of the oil weight, but that seems to be plenty so far.


----------



## LBussy

Mama Bear soaps do have quite a following.  I think the larger component of her success is timing - she was active selling soaps when there were not a lot available.  Her scents are also very good.  The fact of the matter is there's a lot of guys who do not demand a lot from their soaps.  Maybe they have ultra gentle razors and blades, maybe they even use the mainstream multi-blade cartridges.  If so and compared to canned goo a M&P is probably several steps towards nirvana.   It's only when we push the envelope searching for a more perfect shave does a performant soap really shine. 

The forums are also a component.  On some shave forums, some ladies have demigod status, protected and venerated because of their support for the forum.  It's hard to have a critical discussion about a soap when everyone loves the soaper for who she is. 

It's very likely the same as vendors note/talk about with bar soap.  Not a week goes by without someone lamenting how their soap is so carefully crafted, how much they care about their ingredients and process, and someone else maybe in the next booth draws a crowd with colors and packaging. 

Some people would not know good soap if it bit them on the nose.  For those people I am happy they are happy with a myriad of clear brightly colored slivers with boundless scents.  There are demanding shavers though, and those shavers are not swayed.

ETA: I do need to be clear - the soaps from the "grand ladies" of that forum are good.   When they were first made available they were among the best available to US shavers more than likely.  They helped with a movement and they deserve their status.


----------



## McSpin

LBussy said:


> Mama Bear soaps do have quite a following.  I think the larger component of her success is timing - she was active selling soaps when there were not a lot available.  Her scents are also very good.



I've noticed that many seem to choose a favorite shaving soap by scent.  I've also seen the overwhelming attention paid to color and shape with regular bar soaps. There seems to be very little attention paid to the attributes of different formulas.  It's mostly praise for scent and color.  All very odd to me, since I don't give a hoot about color and I actually prefer no added scent.


----------



## LBussy

Exactly.  That's why I do scentless or all the same scent when working on the formula.


----------



## Lindy

Because scent is so important to people I do an unscented soap that can either be sold that way or custom scented to the customer's preference.  I am sold out right now except for some Sandalwood that is leftover from a wholesale account that has now gone out of business.


----------



## LBussy

Lindy said:


> Because scent is so important to people I do an unscented soap that can either be sold that way or custom scented to the customer's preference.


Because I pay for it I scent it all the way I like.  

I like the idea though.  I don't think any US suppliers do that.


----------



## vyadha

I feel the same about mama bears, its the scents that sell it. Ive been wetshaving for 6 or 7 years and have half heartedly tried to make my own soaps a few times. Luckily I have friends in France who know I love MdC and bring me a jar once a year. So Im spoiled with MdC and MWF. Those are the two I like. 

My French friends are going on a year long sailing trip and I am out of MdC. Im going to give this recipe a shot tonite, one with leftover glycerin from the bio I make and one without. '

First HP attempt!


----------



## LBussy

Good luck!


----------



## vyadha

Whoa.....
So I did an 8oz batch in the two stage saponification as DeeAnna did on page of this thread. I lost my thermometer so instead of a double boiler I put enough almost boiling water to fill my crock pot about an inch and put a pyrex bowl with the coconut oil in that. Then pretty much followed DeeAnnas instructions.

I used glycerin that my buddy has leftover from his biodiesel making and I at this point..... an hour after the cook..... I couldnt be more impressed. 

I scooped the soap into two bowls and added 2.5 grams of Thieves Oil EO blend that a 10 year old neighbor made for me.

I couldnt wait because I get impatient. So I loaded my go to Vie Long horsehair brush just to see if anything would happen







It stayed like that for 30 min until I cleaned up. 
Im going tweak a bit and Id really like to try it without glycerin. Im so glad I joined this site and tried my first HP!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Looks good. If you make it without glycerine, don't forget to put something else in to make up for it


----------



## Lindy

That is very impressive!


----------



## vyadha

Shaved with it this morning, the unscented batch. Im sure it will only improve with time but it was still a great shave. A tad drying, could be the low quality glycerin from the biodiesel. Ill try a few batches with lanolin and castor and some store bought glycerin. Pretty **** excited.


----------



## LBussy

vyadha said:


> Shaved with it this morning, the unscented batch. Im sure it will only improve with time but it was still a great shave. A tad drying, could be the low quality glycerin from the biodiesel. Ill try a few batches with lanolin and castor and some store bought glycerin. Pretty **** excited.


Drying on the skin, or dry on the shave?  This will take a bit more water than you might be used to.  Glycerin is a humectant and needs a bit of water to really behave.

Do experiment for yourself, but I don;t think you will find you need/want castor in the long run.

I always use my batch the next day, I hold onto most of the soap I give away at least a week.  At a month I think this stuff is as good as it will get (or reasonably speaking ... the gains from aging drop way off after a while)


----------



## vyadha

It was drying on the skin, just barely. I washed my face with it. I rarely shave with glycerin soaps, so thank you for the tips on the water.

Im doing a full control batch today with regular glycerin and then a lanolin attempt. I really like lanolin so Im hoping for that. Castor Im not attached to at all.

Gonna try adding some tallow as well. 

Thanks all


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Even though this has 15% added glycerine, it is not a glycerine soap as such - glycerine soap is one from a melt and pour base (such as mama bear) whereas these are just soaps with added glycerine. 

As Lee said, these often take more water than one would think. My first batch had just 7% added glycerine and when I bumped it up to 15% I found that it took a lot more water to get it working well


----------



## vyadha

So now I have enough soap for a at least two years....

I made a batch with some beef tallow that looks to be lathering well so far. 

And a batch with lanolin that feels much slicker in my hand. Have to wait for my beard to grow in a bit to test it.

AND!!! The original NaOH lard based soap that seized on me and lead me to this site was rebatched yesterday. Today it lathered up very well. 

HP is really fun and fast, not sure why it took me so long to try it out.

Thanks all.


----------



## LBussy

vyadha said:


> So now I have enough soap for a at least two years...


When making shave soap I do 1 lb batches and get 4 good sized tins.

When developing my recipe I did 100g batches in small screw-top food storage containers set in a pan of simmering water.  I had to measure pretty accurately, but it was a great way to test different recipes and the containers then doubled as containers for the soap.


----------



## boyago

vyadha said:


> And a batch with lanolin that feels much slicker in my hand. Have to wait for my beard to grow in a bit to test it.



For me, waiting for beard growth is one of the more frustrating parts of tuning in a recipe. It's easy to pump out a few soaps a day but wanting to shave a few times with each to give em a chance before getting back to cooking was pretty frustrating.


----------



## vyadha

LBussy said:


> When developing my recipe I did 100g batches in small screw-top food storage containers set in a pan of simmering water.




Yeah, these are 200g batches, so I have 5 of them now. More than enough. My MdC lasts me almost a year and I use it 3-5 times a week. I dont expect these batches to be that long lasting..... Too impatient to let them cure.


Now if I get these beard growing faster


----------



## McSpin

Lindy said:


> Because scent is so important to people I do an unscented soap that can either be sold that way or custom scented to the customer's preference.  I am sold out right now except for some Sandalwood that is leftover from a wholesale account that has now gone out of business.



Interesting.  How do you add scent to an already made soap?


----------



## LBussy

McSpin said:


> Interesting.  How do you add scent to an already made soap?


Guessing (and watching to see what Lindy says) that she heats the soap somewhat and mixes it in with an electric mixer - this based on her Cream Soap tutorial.

That's what I was going to try anyway so I'm glad you asked so I might save myself a mess.


----------



## Lindy

I grate the soap and then moisturize the grated soap then microwave in short burst until smooth.  Once smooth and fluid enough to pour I add the fragrance.  Voila scented soap ready to go to my customer.  Little more time consuming than having them pick from the soaps available but I'm known for custom fragrancing.


----------



## LBussy

I was close!  

Thanks for sharing Lindy.


----------



## Lindy

You're welcome


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Out of interest, Lindy - do you have a big batch of shreds on hand, or grate on demand?


----------



## McSpin

I would guess that the order has to be a good size to justify the extra work. Of course, with a power grater and the right equipment, the process could go fairly fast, especially if your store large amounts of grated soap ready to melt. 

Hmm, this might be useful to keep scents fresh in my personal soaps.  I'm guessing that grated soap would also cure much faster.  I happen to have quite a bit of unscented soap. I see some experimentation on this coming up. Thanks for the tips.


----------



## LBussy

McSpin said:


> I'm guessing that grated soap would also cure much faster.


Why?

Not being intentionally obtuse - but curing is not just drying (and that's not the part we need with a shaving soap).  Since this is a croap, drying is not part of what we want out of it.  

As a mater of fact, mine ends up so hard even with just KOH that I have been experimenting with ways to present it as a softer soap.  Softer means faster loading and faster loading means you are less likely to under-load your brush.  Of course you can over-load it too .. but I use a badger brush and I need all the help I can get.  A good boar brush would load it admirably.


----------



## vyadha

LBussy said:


> Softer means faster loading and faster loading means you are less likely to under-load your brush.  Of course you can over-load it too .. but I use a badger brush and I need all the help I can get.  A good boar brush would load it admirably.



I really enjoy the myriad of preferences we all have. Ive always preferred harder soaps than croaps and creams. I like watching the hard bar mutate into a creamy, puffy lather on my brush.

Due to that preference Im pretty pleased that these stearic/coco soaps will get hard. I thought I may have messed up the cook but now I know better.

FWIW, the lanolin addition to this threads recipe has been excellent so far.


----------



## cnm

yes indeedee


----------



## Lindy

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Out of interest, Lindy - do you have a big batch of shreds on hand, or grate on demand?


\

I do have shreds on hand but I have grated on demand.  I use a salad shooter.



McSpin said:


> I would guess that the order has to be a good size to justify the extra work. Of course, with a power grater and the right equipment, the process could go fairly fast, especially if your store large amounts of grated soap ready to melt.


 
I store a bit of grated soap but not a large amount.  Because I have a salad shooter it is really quick to grate the soap.  I don't grate it until it has had time to cure.


----------



## FlybyStardancer

Okay, so I hit my shave soap with my hand mixer yesterday, and it became a much smoother paste, and as of today it hasn't separated. Still trying to decide how to package this stuff up. It's very thick, but it's not as dry as I thought it would be, so pucks are out of the question. (I'll tweak the water amount next time to see if I can get it to form pucks!)

In the meantime... I currently have three options. I have empty deodorant/lotion bar tubes (not previously used!). I'm going to put some in a couple of those for sure, not sure if I'm going to do more than that. Today I purchased some wide-mouth pint jars and plastic wide-mouth lids, as well as four ramekins. I'm debating between them... For reference, none of my friends who shave currently use shaving soap, so they don't have brushes.


----------



## InNae

I've purchased the 4oz flat tin here and they are a small sized container that would be good for shaving but the larger flat container would work really well for loading soap on and aren't to expensive.

http://www.specialtybottle.com/tincontainersmi.aspx


----------



## FlybyStardancer

Unfortunately I've spent all of my current shipping-hobby money with the swap, so those tins will have to wait. The ramekins are easy enough to return if I end up not using them, and the jars can/will be used for canning if I don't use them for soap.

I'm waffling between the ramekins and jars... On the one hand, the jars can be easily closed and don't imply a specific way of using it. On the other... potential for glass shards if dropped.

And I have since found out that one potential guinea pig does use a mug & brush! Whoo! lol


----------



## boyago

FlybyStardancer said:


> Unfortunately I've spent all of my current shipping-hobby money with the swap, so those tins will have to wait. The ramekins are easy enough to return if I end up not using them, and the jars can/will be used for canning if I don't use them for soap.
> 
> I'm waffling between the ramekins and jars... On the one hand, the jars can be easily closed and don't imply a specific way of using it. On the other... potential for glass shards if dropped.
> 
> And I have since found out that one potential guinea pig does use a mug & brush! Whoo! lol



I use cheap ceramic dipping dishes from Fred Myer or the 8oz wide mouth Ball jars.  with a 4oz soap.  Glass is a concern but as someone either in this or another thread said (paraphrase) "you'd be surprised how spry a properly motivated half naked man can be".


----------



## LBussy

I use the 8oz flat tins from Specialty as they fit very well in a small flat rate box.  I have used small screw-top food storage containers as well for quick tester batches.  I'd go for as wise as possible among your choices.


----------



## FlybyStardancer

I though about the dipping bowls that were right next to the ramekins.. but they were slightly smaller, and the base was narrow enough for me to give them the side-eye. lol And LOL on that quote! I do have glass in my bathroom... both my lotion bottle and my little jar of coconut oil are glass.


----------



## LBussy

Yeah when you drop a straight razor you can get all sorts of motivated.


----------



## FlybyStardancer

FINALLY got it loaded into vessels.  I ended up using all three options... 6 of the lotion sticks (2oz each), 4 of the wide mouth half-pints (4oz each), and 3 of the ramekins (also 4oz each). Plus one tiny little sampler that's less than 1 oz. That'll give a nice array for people to chose from!

One oddity that came up when I was chatting with my friends earlier... One friend prefers to use a sugar scrub for shaving! She says that she has not gotten a nick since switching to a sugar scrub. My mind boggles because I can only think of the graininess and how it would work... But she also doesn't shave that often so when she does the hair is gunking up the razor as much as everything else.


----------



## vyadha

Shaved today with the original recipe on this thread and a kamisori. Great advice about adding lots o water. Excellent shave.
Bit of 444 after and that's it.


----------



## LBussy

vyadha said:


> Shaved today with the original recipe on this thread and a kamisori.


Well at least you took it easy the first time ... :Kitten Love:


----------



## vyadha

Ha! Kamisoris are my favorite!


----------



## DeeAnna

I now feel like the newbie soaper who asks, "What is SF?"

Okay, so enlighten me, please -- what is a kamisori? And why do I get the feeling it is "edge play"? :twisted:


----------



## LBussy

DeeAnna said:


> I now feel like the newbie soaper who asks, "What is SF?"
> 
> Okay, so enlighten me, please -- what is a kamisori? And why do I get the feeling it is "edge play"? :twisted:


It's a Japanese straight:







Technically it is roughly Japanese for "razor", but when used in the US it refers to the traditional fixed blade. 

 These are hollow on one side and straight on the other making them somewhat challenging to shave oneself with.  They were intended for one person to shave another, thereby only using the one good side (Omote), the one with no stampings and flat face.  The other side is hollowed (the "ura") and is intended to be away from the face.

I use a "kamisori style" with a replacement blade:





Also bloodthirsty, but at least the grind is the same on both sides.

Danit ... now I'm looking at these things again!  Here's a gorgeous Damascus steel blade:





These are made with two different steels - the part for the edge is "welded" to the handle.  Click on the image if you dare ... see what these things cost.  They go higher than that as well.


----------



## Obsidian

Beautiful razors but hell no, not on my skin.


----------



## shunt2011

Those things look like weapons not razors. I package my shaving soap in 8 oz black low profile jars from NG. I also make refill pucks.


----------



## DeeAnna

Oh, dear. Yes, definitely edge play in all senses of the word.


----------



## Lindy

I've used a straight (I have an antique one) and it was okay but those look really scary!


----------



## LBussy

Lindy said:


> I've used a straight (I have an antique one) and it was okay but those look really scary!


Non-symmetrical bevel aside, they are not too bad.  It's somewhat easier for some folks to manage since there's no handle at right angles to the blade.  They are absolutely scary looking however - and punish inattention.


----------



## kchaystack

This whole thread makes me happy I keep my beard.


----------



## LBussy

kchaystack said:


> This whole thread makes me happy I keep my beard.


Your beard grows perfectly straight and trimmed?


----------



## kchaystack

LBussy said:


> Your beard grows perfectly straight and trimmed?



No, but an electric trimmer does fine!  

But looking at a straight razor, ZZ Top looks MUCH more appealing


----------



## vyadha

They are the only straights in my rotation now. On the weekends when I have more free time, a long, luxurious shave with one of these is my spa treatment. Definite edge play.


----------



## reinbeau

kchaystack said:


> This whole thread makes me happy I keep my beard.


This whole thread makes me happy I don't have to scrape whiskers off my face!!


----------



## cpacamper

reinbeau said:


> This whole thread makes me happy I don't have to scrape whiskers off my face!!



I would be sad if I couldn't scrape my whiskers each morning!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Aye, David, there is nothing quite like stropping until the blade sings and then whipping away the beard with what is essentially the sharpest knife in the house.


----------



## LBussy

Shaving went from a chore to something I enjoy - which is just very hard to explain to someone that has not experienced it.


----------



## FlybyStardancer

I just tried my batch last night! It worked well, despite the softness & inconsistency I had after the cook.  And loading it into lotion stick containers so far seems like it was a good idea for the way I use it!


----------



## LBussy

Awesome!  Now that you have had a taste, there's no going back.  Welcome to the dark side - we have cookies!


----------



## vyadha

FlybyStardancer said:


> I just tried my batch last night! It worked well, despite the softness & inconsistency I had after the cook.  And loading it into lotion stick containers so far seems like it was a good idea for the way I use it!



Im going to put my next batch into sticks after reading this. Still, I love how the stuff has hardened up nicely, especially the lanolin and tallow ones. 

Time to strop.

So after 5 weeks of shaving with this recipe along with a beef tallow addition and a lanolin addition in separate batches, Im in love with the lanolin.

I kept trying the glycerin and was wondering why I couldn't it wet enough and then I remembered that the glycerin I used was from my biodiesel making friend. So it must be behaving differently with whatever else in there with it. 

We did heat it up and aerate it before using but it is still very different than store bought glycerin. Looks  like Im making another batch this week.

Still, the lanolin is superb.


----------



## cappykat

I made this soap (8oz) but didn't get the lather you show.  I used 38% water and 3% SF and added 1/4 tsp sodium lactate and 1 tsp glycerin after the cook.  I used 3.04 oz water and 1.76 oz of KOH.  Did I miss something?  Thank you for your help.


----------



## boyago

vyadha said:


> So after 5 weeks of shaving with this recipe along with a beef tallow addition and a lanolin addition in separate batches, Im in love with the lanolin.
> 
> I kept trying the glycerin and was wondering why I couldn't it wet enough and then I remembered that the glycerin I used was from my biodiesel making friend. So it must be behaving differently with whatever else in there with it.
> 
> We did heat it up and aerate it before using but it is still very different than store bought glycerin. Looks  like Im making another batch this week.
> 
> Still, the lanolin is superb.



In thinking about your glycerin coming from biodiesel, and I appologize my chemistry isn't what it should be when talking about these things, but if in smaller scale systems sometime there is water used at two stages of production.  Before the diesel is made and in certain systems again after.  Depending on when they pulled the glycerin it may already be saturated with H2O.  If you have allot of it or it's a free source I'd maybe fill a pot with it and heat it to above 212F, if you get bubbling and boiling you have allot of water in your glycerin.  You can just keep it going at that temp (maybe with a fan on it) to boil it off as well.
Again I'm no chem whiz but that might be what's giving the adverse effect with your glycerin.  I figure at the very least it might throw off your weights.


----------



## vyadha

boyago said:


> In thinking about your glycerin coming from biodiesel, and I appologize my chemistry isn't what it should be when talking about these things, but if in smaller scale systems sometime there is water used at two stages of production.  Before the diesel is made and in certain systems again after.  Depending on when they pulled the glycerin it may already be saturated with H2O.  If you have allot of it or it's a free source I'd maybe fill a pot with it and heat it to above 212F, if you get bubbling and boiling you have allot of water in your glycerin.  You can just keep it going at that temp (maybe with a fan on it) to boil it off as well.
> Again I'm no chem whiz but that might be what's giving the adverse effect with your glycerin.  I figure at the very least it might throw off your weights.



Thanks man! It bubbled like crazy when we heated it up. Ill give it another try.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

cappykat said:


> I made this soap (8oz) but didn't get the lather you show.  I used 38% water and 3% SF and added 1/4 tsp sodium lactate and 1 tsp glycerin after the cook.  I used 3.04 oz water and 1.76 oz of KOH.  Did I miss something?  Thank you for your help.




I would have used more glycerine I think - I can't work in those funny units (  ) but I add in glycerine at 15% of the oil weight. So in a 1kg batch I would add 150g glycerine. Not sure how much 1tsp is to 8oz. 

Also, how are you at lathering soaps in general? It can be a very thirsty soap, as well to bear in mind


----------



## cappykat

I think 1 tsp to 8oz is about 12.5% of total weight.  I was going for 11% because that's what I had read, but I went ahead and used the full teaspoon.  "Thirsty"??  Meaning, add water when working the lather?  I get a pretty good lather just not "lofty".


----------



## Possum_Magic

I've made this recipe twice and love it!


----------



## MrsSpaceship

This is my second soap (ok third, but we don't mention my first attempt).  I made it to the original post specifications and wow, this is amazing, how do you even try to improve upon something this great?  
Since I'm just making it for my husband, I only made a 1 lb. batch, and it went amazingly well.  I got full melt of the stearic at 130F, because I was doing HP I added my lye hot (160).  I got instant mashed potatoes.  
I cooked to the vaseline stage and got a delayed zap and litmus showed at about 8.5-9 and phenothaline came up clear, but I cooked longer just in case before molding (my tongue was sore so I didn't trust zap and planned on letting it age a few weeks).  
I added glycerin and tangerine FO at the end of the cook but think I flashed most of the scent off by accident, the soap carries a faint  whiff, but very little carries over to the face.  
We figured out that this soap needs more water to work up a lather, but even a lazy attempt built up enough to provide a better shave than had been previously achieved with purchased soaps. (Whoohooo!!) This works awesome if you load the brush on the soap then whip it in a separate bowl.
This soap didn't leave the usual "emollient" trace/feel on the skin after shaving, but in my husbands case it left the skin feeling very normal, not dry and itch or slick or moisturized... just good.  
I tried to use this on my legs, and the lather is so thick it kind of clogged my disposable 3 bladed razor (hubby uses a safety razor). 
I want to try other recipes for shave soap, but this is certainly a tough act to follow.  Thank you so much Songwind for sharing.   
For those of you that are visual, here are some pics.  

This is my husbands "lazy" lather (about 20 seconds worth of work to humor me)






This is what it looks like after you load the brush from the soap then work it in a separate bowl.  It's so pretty!!


----------



## LBussy

MrsSpaceship said:


> I tried to use this on my legs, and the lather is so thick it kind of clogged my disposable 3 bladed razor (hubby uses a safety razor).


That's generally an indication that you need a little more water in the lather - it will hold quite a lot.

I shave with a straight and I judge the lather by how it runs off the blade when rinsed - you could probably do the same with a butter knife.  If it flies right off when run under warm water then there's not enough soap.  If it takes more than a few seconds to rinse off it likely needs more water.  It should come off sort of like butter melting on a hot pan.


----------



## MrsSpaceship

> That's generally an indication that you need a little more water in the lather - it will hold quite a lot.
> 
> I shave with a straight and I judge the lather by how it runs off the blade when rinsed - you could probably do the same with a butter knife. If it flies right off when run under warm water then there's not enough soap. If it takes more than a few seconds to rinse off it likely needs more water. It should come off sort of like butter melting on a hot pan.



Thanks LBussy, good to know, it was just a test shave on my part, I'll ask hubby how it works for him.


----------



## hmlove1218

Ok, I'm admitting that I haven't made it all the way through this thread yet, so the answer may be here, but could shave soap be made with NaOH only? I don't have any KOH, but would like to try it.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

It could - but it wouldn't be very good at all. KOH really makes it what it is, even if you only use 40% KOH and 60% NaOH


----------



## hmlove1218

Thanks! I'll try to get some KOH ordered then.


----------



## IrishLass

hmlove1218 said:


> Ok, I'm admitting that I haven't made it all the way through this thread yet, so the answer may be here, but could shave soap be made with NaOH only? I don't have any KOH, but would like to try it.


 
I 'm afraid I'm going to have to differ with the Gent on this one (sorry Gent). I will let it slide, though, since he has never tried my NaOH-only soap.   

If you ask my hubby and the 2 other wet-shaving dudes that have tested my NaOH-only shave soap to date, they will tell you that it is quite good and that if it was the only shave soap that they could ever shave with for the rest of their lives, they would all shave happy with it. 

Is it the best shave soap in existence ever? No. 

Is there better shave soap on the planet? Most definitely yes (such as my updated formula that contains 64% KOH and 36% NaOH). But since my NaOH-only formula performs quite nicely nevertheless, I say 'yes' to your question as to whether you can make a good shave soap with only NaOH. The trick is in the formulation (high stearic content/low myristic and lauric content, additives to enhance creaminess and sustained lather), and also in the way it is lathered (you want to make sure to use enough water when lathering it), but yes- if you ask me and my tester dudes, it can be done......and CP'd to boot, mind you! 


IrishLass


----------



## LBussy

I've done it, I prefer KOH.  Compared to canned goo it's pretty good though.  

To me, soaps which contain any NaOH feels "grittier" although that's not quite the right term either.  I've yet to hear a good reason for me to use NaOH so I use 100% KOH.   It's definitely hard enough to make pucks.


----------



## TheDragonGirl

Just finished reading all the way through this thread, oosh thats a lot of information to take in, I'll be ordering some KOH soon to give make a shave soap go at 50/50 with Naoh 50% Coconut oil, 40% searic acid, 5% castor and 5% sf coco butter, with an addition of 7% glycerin. using the split method I'm being told guys around here like mentholated soaps so peppermint it is.


----------



## LBussy

Menthol is not peppermint - although peppermint can have some of the same properties.

You can pick up a pound of menthol crystals on eBay for next to nothing.


----------



## TheDragonGirl

LBussy said:


> Menthol is not peppermint - although peppermint can have some of the same properties.
> 
> You can pick up a pound of menthol crystals on eBay for next to nothing.



I did actually know they aren't the same  although afaik, and I could be wrong, menthol is derived from peppermint, and I have the oil on hand. Is there any significant problem with choosing that as a scent to go along with their enjoyment of those properties?


----------



## LBussy

It can be derived from Peppermint among others - although I think most of the commercial crops now come from India from the Mentha arvensis.

No, no problem at all if you like the peppermint.    I made a peppermint/vanilla soap that was pretty nice.  Ended up adding menthol to it though as it didn't have the tingle I wanted.


----------



## TheDragonGirl

LBussy said:


> It can be derived from Peppermint among others - although I think most of the commercial crops now come from India from the Mentha arvensis.
> 
> No, no problem at all if you like the peppermint.    I made a peppermint/vanilla soap that was pretty nice.  Ended up adding menthol to it though as it didn't have the tingle I wanted.



Aha, I will take the lack of oomph under advisement
I'm actually considering peppermint/cedar  or peppermint/lemongrass, the latter of which is my favorite scent personally


----------



## TheDragonGirl

Finally got it done, I'm going to have to pick up a shaving brush to really test it but just with my hand I love the lather, and it shaves really nicely (not that I have much to compare it to personally except syndets and canned shaving cream, which I used to use)
I ended up going with peppermint/basil, and I thought the cooling effect was really nice, though I can see what you mean by it not really having a good bite to it just using the oils


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Looks good!  What recipe did you go with in the end?


----------



## TheDragonGirl

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> Looks good!  What recipe did you go with in the end?



The one I posted a few  posts back  Although I didn't end up using the split method just because it was a lot easier  to melt the stearic acid down in the crock pot for me, I just stirred the whole thing up as I poured the lye in slowly, then took my immersion blender to it for a couple of pulses just to make sure.


----------



## traderbren

I've made 2 batches now. My first followed Songwind's original recipe from the first post. It lathered beautifully the first night even without a brush. I found it just a tad drying for my legs, but my dad will be the real test subject when he switches his old soap out for it on November 1. It will have a nice 3 1/2 week cure on it by then. 

I made another batch today, adding in a touch of lanolin, cocoa butter, and palm oil. I used a combination of KOH and NaOH. It lathered beautifully again for me just now, and felt wonderful on my legs. Dad will get this for his December soap.

I have ordered a brush for myself. Hubs tends to go "Yukon Cornelius" in the winter, so I'm not sure he'll be using any of it. My dad on the other hand is like a kid in a candy store right now, since I got him hooked on "good" mug soap years ago.


----------



## LBussy

The original recipe can be drying for some folks.  It's incredibly sensitive to the superfat with just SA and CO.  Too much kills lather, too little and you feel like you are stretching your skin like a trampoline.  I love the lanolin in mine and I use a touch of shea as well - preferentially adding these after the cook so they express themselves in the superfat.  I have found I need to get the more highly processed shea to keep the shell bits out of the soap.  The "natural" stuff may be nice in other things, but flecks of hard things in a creamy white lather is not desirable.


----------



## vyadha

After numerous tweaks, Ive settled on what I think is the best shave soap Ive used.

Its still very simple:
45% CO
45% SA
5% deer tallow
5% lanolin added after the lye 

The pucks are quite hard, which I prefer and still loads very quickly. Im not sure if there is a big difference between different tallows but this is just great.

Along with a bay rosewood eo blend its downright unbeatable.


----------



## madjedo

*Effectively fill the jars?*

I have been reading the thread and it's been a good read!

Do you know how one can actually effectively fill the jars using hot-process shave soap?

Do you just spoon it in? But if you are making a very big batch, like 44pounds then this would take a lot of time? Isn't there some tools or other techniques for filling/pouring into jars?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

madjedo said:


> I have been reading the thread and it's been a good read!
> 
> Do you know how one can actually effectively fill the jars using hot-process shave soap?
> 
> Do you just spoon it in? But if you are making a very big batch, like 44pounds then this would take a lot of time? Isn't there some tools or other techniques for filling/pouring into jars?




 44 lbs is a lot of soap. If someone was making that much, I would imagine that person was selling and would therefore be an experienced soaper. 

How did you get on pouring in to containers previously?


----------



## madjedo

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> 44 lbs is a lot of soap. If someone was making that much, I would imagine that person was selling and would therefore be an experienced soaper.
> 
> How did you get on pouring in to containers previously?



Well uhm, I didn't. I have been "scooping" it out so far. But I imagine, if I were to scale up than this would become an issue right?
And I am asking because, you read about alot of these "artisan" makers and surely they can't all be scooping the cream out and filling the jars that way. I am guessing they are making very big batches (bigger than the one mentioned i guess). Hundred upon hundreds of jars. So how the hell do they fill their jars lol??


----------



## LBussy

The consistency is that of mashed potatoes, so you could pipe the containers I suppose.  Really, scooping does not take that long.

With the tins I use (4.5") and the generous portioning (7 oz), a 44# batch would be right at 100 containers.  For that many I would skip the heartache of trying to come up with an easier way and just use a way that worked.

I'd also love to see a video of you making 44# hot process, please do share.


----------



## songwind

I generally make ~55 tubs worth at a time, plus some sample jars. I'm not sure that any sort of more complicated process would actually save time - especially since I'm rarely making all 50+ jars in the same scent, so it has to be broken down into smaller batches.

Plus, once you've done it a couple hundred times, you get pretty good at knowing how much needs to go in the jar and things go pretty quickly.


----------



## bluegrass

Thank you to everyone who had contributed to this thread. For a newbie like myself this is a goldmine. I should have all my supplies in by next week, and I can't wait to try the original recipe first.


----------



## cgsample

songwind said:


> I generally make ~55 tubs worth at a time, plus some sample jars. I'm not sure that any sort of more complicated process would actually save time - especially since I'm rarely making all 50+ jars in the same scent, so it has to be broken down into smaller batches.
> 
> Plus, once you've done it a couple hundred times, you get pretty good at knowing how much needs to go in the jar and things go pretty quickly.



How many Crock-Pots are going at once?


----------



## songwind

cgsample said:


> How many Crock-Pots are going at once?


3 at a time.


----------



## cgsample

I made this recipe about a month ago and the unscented 4oz pucks have been drying since.  Now that I gave in and bought a bunch of FOs today for cyber-Monday, can I melt down these pucks and add scent?

I've read about re-batching, but "shaving soaps" have not been covered?  Could I get two pucks (8oz) back to mashed potato consistency in my tiny 1 quart crock pot?


----------



## LBussy

Yep.  Soap is soap.


----------



## cgsample

In the bulk section of a health store I found bentonite clay.  It was $14 a pound, so I scooped a tiny bit into a baggie that turned out to be $1.06.

I've never shaved with a clay before, so today I sprinkled a pinch of it onto my shaving soap and lathered as normal.  I liked it!

Next recipe will include it.


----------



## Misschief

Wow! That was an educational evening! I've just now (10:16 p.m.) finished reading this entire thread. About halfway through, I took a break and made my first ever batch of real shaving soap using a modification of the original recipe. I used:

52% stearic acid
33% coconut oil
15% shea butter

1.5 tbsp. glycerin
bay rum and lime e.o. (after running it by my husband)

It's the first time I've used my mini crock pot for soapmaking and it won't be the last. I followed DeeAnna's two part process and also rolled the finished soap in parchment to cool. For the fun of it, I dug out my father-in-law's old shave brush, found in my husband's things, and lathered up an end bit. I am amazed at the amount of lather. I can't wait for my husband to try it; he normally uses a canned shave gel and always reacts to it. It will be interesting to see if he reacts to this shave soap.

I'd like to try a couple of variations now, like adding lanolin. It might be good for his sensitive face.

Now, I want to get a proper shave bowl and decent brush for my husband. Too bad Christmas has already passed and his birthday isn't for months. 

I do have a question regarding the addition of lanolin. When do you add it?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I add some with the main oils and some after with the rest of the superfat


----------



## LBussy

Misschief said:


> I do have a question regarding the addition of lanolin. When do you add it?


I do as Craig does.  Have a look here for how I do it.  The article is written for a person new to making soap so a lot may be remedial, but it does talk about when (and why) I add shea and lanolin.

http://www.silverfoxcrafts.com/shaving-soap/

Part one ('The "Super" Fat' section) describes how/why, part three shows the process if you are not immediately clear on what I meant.


----------



## Misschief

For some reason, I can't access the articles. WP wants my login, even though I'm already logged in to my own WP account. 

NM, there are more than one ways to skin a cat. I found your thread "Shaving Soap - Want to Make It?" and linked to the articles from there. Even though I've read the articles before, I'll be reading them a little differently now, now that I've already made one batch.

Thanks Lee and Craig! I already want to try making another batch.


----------



## LBussy

Um ... weird.  Sec.


Misschief said:


> For some reason, I can't access the articles. WP wants my login, even though I'm already logged in to my own WP account.


Fixed ... The links on that page were to edit the pages for some strange reason.  Thanks for letting me know.


----------



## Misschief

No worries. I remembered that I had read your articles once before. Just finished reading again and it all made so much more sense this time. Even though I should probably be making more beer soap today, I think I'll do up a small batch of shaving soap with your recipe, just so that my husband has something to compare. 

Thank you, Lee and all of you who contributed to this thread. I'm constantly amazed at the knowledge that is so freely shared here and the ever so helpful fellow soapers who are free with their time, advice, and best of all, encouragement.

ETA: And, here's last night's soap...


----------



## newbie

I thought I would share my recent experience with this soap. I made a bunch up in dishes some time ago and had brought one up to the sink to try again. I turned the dish over so any extra water would run out, hoping it would dry the soap faster. And then forgot about it. Later, I loaded the dishwasher and as it started running, I saw gobs of bubbles coming out of the bottom crack. I opened the door to find the DW full of the most awesome, dense, foamy lather that I scooped out and scooped out and scooped out. I was amazed that the little bit of soap I left on my equipment could produce such abundance. I almost called the person I made soap with for Xmas presents to tell her the recipients were going to be very pleased! Having relieved the DW of most of its foam burden, I closed it and it started again. About ten minutes later there was foam coming out again. I opened it to find a world of bigger bubbled lather going up to the second rack- light huge bubbles. I scooped and scooped and scooped again, loading the new stuff on top of the first stuff which was still holding its shape in the sink. What had I done to my recipe that resulted in such spectacular results?

When I emptied the DW, I found bits of dried foam on the dishes and pulled out the formerly completely full dish of shaving soap, which was now at least 3/4 empty. Ah. Well, it surely is a fantastic recipe!! After removing the shaving soap, I ran the load again, hoping I hadn't ruined my DW but it worked just fine and my dishes were sparkling clean. 

Thanks for the recipe, Songwind. I will refrain from trying it in my washing machine next.


----------



## Misschief

Oh dear.. I'm laughing so hard I have tears! I can just picture it! Thank you for the laughs, newbie! I needed that!

John (my husband) tried it today and called it a success. He really, really likes it!


----------



## songwind

newbie said:


> Thanks for the recipe, Songwind. I will refrain from trying it in my washing machine next.



Maybe start small, like with a wash board and wringer?


----------



## iorgu

Hi all,

i just made this recipe. It is truly a great shaving soap. I shave with a straight razor. Now i want to add some bay rum scent in it. Any idea about what percentage of each bay leave, lime, clove and cinnamon essential oils should i add for a classic bay rum scent?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Welcome!

The bay in bay rum is not bay leaf - I can't look up the Latin at the moment. I would look at a good bay rum FO instead


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## Misschief

I used Bay Rum e.o. in mine, along with a bit of lime. In the first batch, I used 1/2 tsp. bay rum e.o. and 1/2 tsp lime e.o. I find the lime to be a bit overpowering so, in the second batch (Lee's recipe...awesome!!), I used 1/4 tsp. lime and 1/2 tsp. bay rum.

Both my husband and I like it... at that rate, it isn't overpowering, just.... there.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

What sort of blend is that eo? Do they list the amounts of each individual eo used to make the blend?


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## Misschief

All it says on the bottle is Bay Rum (Piment officinalis), West Indies


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## traderbren

I just did a quick search. It seems Bay Oil or Bay Rum Oil is from the Bay tree, Pimenta Racemosa. Our bay leaves here are usually from the Bay Laurel tree, laurus nobilis.


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## iorgu

I have Pimenta Racemosa essential oil, not Laurus Nobilis, but by itself it doesn't smell like the bay rum i am used with from the soaps like OSP Bay Rum and Mike's Soap Bay Rum, if you know them (i also heard that these two are smelling pretty close to the classic bay rum). I have clove also, and i know that it is used in bay rum. I also know that OSP (probably Mike's too) uses cinnamon and lime in conjunction with bay and clover. These two i don't have yet, i tryied bay, clove and orange and it doesn''t really smell like the real deal.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Misschief said:


> All it says on the bottle is Bay Rum (Piment officinalis), West Indies



Then it is indeed mis-labeled - it is bay OIL.  Bay RUM is that mixture which includes bay OIL, but is not alone the same.  which is why......



iorgu said:


> I have Pimenta Racemosa essential oil, not Laurus Nobilis, but by itself it doesn't smell like the bay rum i am used with from the soaps like OSP Bay Rum and Mike's Soap Bay Rum, if you know them (i also heard that these two are smelling pretty close to the classic bay rum). I have clove also, and i know that it is used in bay rum. I also know that OSP (probably Mike's too) uses cinnamon and lime in conjunction with bay and clover. These two i don't have yet, i tryied bay, clove and orange and it doesn''t really smell like the real deal.



........the bay oil alone doesn't smell like bay rum - it does need the added scents to make it really bay rum instead of bay oil.  Finding the exact mix can be tricky.  I make a Bay Rum aftershave using Bay oil, cloves and cinnamon sticks, then I also have a bay rum FO which is totally different.  

As the "original" bay rum was homemade by sailors, I imagine batches varied as much as the different EO combos/FOs end up smelling.


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## Misschief

Interesting, TEG. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the company I got it from is no longer in business.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Crikey!  Might well be.  But I can understand how it gets changed about, in the same way that some people don't know the difference between the two bays.  A "Mommy Blogger" (not knocking them in general, I love reading their blogs) sees that you need bay oil to make a bay rum scent, but just assumes it's bay leaf and then SHE blogs her recipe for bay rum, using bay leaf.  Next thing you know, a large number of people think it is so because Mommy Blogger got it wrong but they take it at face value.


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## Misschief

To be honest, I didn't realize until just a couple of years ago that there were different kinds of bay trees... and I'm in my 60's!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

In large amounts, the Bay oil of bay rum is actually deadly (or at least not very good for you) so it isn't something that comes up in cooking or massage and so on.  Unless you're looking to replicate the Bay Rum scent (or even make some actual rum type bay rum) then I don't imagine many people ever hear of it.


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## IrishLass

The good Gent is correct, the type of bay used in the genuine Bay Rum of old is Pimenta Racemosa, and you definitely do _not_ want to ingest it. 

Back in September I started researching Bay Rum and came across a handful of recipes from old pharmacological manuals dating from 1860 to the early 1900's. It seems that originally, Bay rum was simply made by distilling rum with pimento racemosa leaves, but then later on other things began to be added to the mix, such as orange peel and allspice, cloves, etc... , and then rum began to be replaced with ethanol, etc.... 

In case y'all are interested, here's a link to my Pimenta Racemosa EO experiments that I conducted back in September (I made a handful of different blends with the racemosa EO and let them steep): http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=56308 

My favorite blends from those experiments are blends #3, #4 and #5 (each formula is recorded in the above-linked thread)

And here is one of the USP Bay Rum recipes I ran across (from 1883):

Oil of Myrcia (Pimenta Racemosa).................................. 1 fl oz
Oil of Orange Peel........................................................ 40 minims [which I found out is about .083 oz/2.5 mLs]
Oil of Allspice.............................................................. 25 minims [which I found out is about .052 oz/1.5 mLs]
Alcohol (containing 94% volume of absolute alcohol)...... 4 1/2 pints
Water........................................................................ 3 1/2 pints 

Nowadays, different companies have their own proprietary blends, with some adding cimmamon and/or cloves, and/or lime, and/or orange, etc, etc., etc.

Although I mentioned this in my above-linked thread, I'll just mention it here, too. Oregon Trails has a FO called Montego Bay that smells just like the blend I made using Bay Racemosa EO, whole crushed allspice berries, and rum. So, if you're looking for a good Bay FO, I highly recommend that one.


IrishLass


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## LBussy

Just to have a little fun ... here's a great thread on Badger and Blade (shaving forum) where someone did a review f 20 bay rums:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/123922-Massive-Bay-Rum-review-20-sampled


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## traderbren

Thank you, Lee for that rabbit hole, err, link. I just spent more minutes than I should have on reading about Bay Rum. And now I have ideas. 

I always bought Dad a bottle of good hooch for Xmas, except the one year I got a bottle PLUS various shaving mug soaps when I lived in a town with an awesome shaving store. I think I scored a few more things in his will that year.... But this year Dad's health has made it where I couldn't just clop off to the hooch store so I went with shaving soap instead. As in, I needed a new path from this rabbit hole so I made some in the Fall, and somehow promised him a new puck each month. He has requested a Lime scent for one, but I just wasn't seeing that. Until that dang Bay Rum review. 

I have work to do. I'm behind on the February soap.


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## LBussy

I ordered myself a bottle of the Dominica classic and the Dominica Lime.  

The folks on B&B are every bit as obsessed about Shaving and accouterments as we are about soap.


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## Bagaudae

Greeting all!

Total newcomer here. 

I tried a very similar recipe to the topic's original. Puls a litle something (almond oil, just a tiny 10% at expense of the coconut oil). The soap turned out just fine and lather is just as expected. 

But this was my first experience with HP and I have a hard time "reading the signs". It turned out the soap never geled. Not partially not at all! It kept the same mash potato like state as in the begining! I quited at nearly 2 hours in the oven at 80 ºC (170 -180 ºF) It was a really small batch of 150 g of oils, and all I have is a kitchen scale. Not the most acurate thing...


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

With the high amount of stearic acid, it can sometimes be a funny old thing with how it behaves. I would always use the zap test to check it after a while as it may or may not look like it 'should' and the confusion is understandable


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## LBussy

I can;t imagine that it didn't gel ... it may not have looked like it but as Craig said things look different sometimes.


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## Bagaudae

If the gel state has something to do with the amount of lye consumed, then it must have gone through it. Zap test is completeley good. imediatley after cooling down no zap at all. The mixture is also completely homogenous, at least at naked eye. 

What it didn't get to is that translucent state I was expecting (as shown in the original post pictures).

Thanks all for the opinions. I am a completely noob, first time Hot process and second attempt considering all. First try was a rubish experience just to get the hang of it, so all inputs are very welcome. 

Why is stearic so temperamental? what causes this instability? temperature control? I am using animal based stearic by the way. 

Yet another question: is I want to include some clay in my next attempt, what type of clay should I use? I am a bit overwhelmed with all the types, colors and names of all the clays there are..


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## LBussy

Gell is a visible indication of the saponification of the fats.  There is no chemical difference between a soap which has gelled and one which has not - they both contain the same amount of glycerin.  It's mostly an aesthetic change brought on by heat - and you had plenty of heat.  HP batches, especially small ones, can entrain enough air that the mashed potatoes always have the same opaque look to them no matter if saponification and gel has happened or not.  Fact is, most of the saponification happens nearly instantly with HP.

Stearic needs 150 deg F to be melted, and some argue it saponifies so easily it saponifies first and can cause some separation of the soap as it converts.  Whether this happens or not it does not seem to have any deleterious impact to the soap.

If you read this thread (and it is quite long) you will see none of us that care about our shaving soap and our razors use clay.  I'd go so far as to say it's a crutch used by soapers who do not understand how to make shaving soap and/or have simply followed others blindly.  Now some people I care about very much on this forum used to use clay in their shaving soaps but I think we have them converted  - so I mean no disrespect by this.  Adding dirt to shaving soap is not necessary, has no benefit, and potentially has some negative impact.


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## Bagaudae

I have gone through a good lenght of the thread, but not completely yet. It is long and full of information, so much that a complete newcomer like myself sometimes feels a bit overwhelmed. It's hard to seperate what is good solid advice from "personal opinions" not so well funded and that ultimately are dependent on the person.

Truth is, I have never seen a reputable's soap (or unreputable for that matter) include some sort of clay. Not that I have been able to identify at least. I just got curious about the fuss the subject brings. 

As for the gell/no gell, I think i will settle for now and patientley wait a week or two (I know it should be more time, but I am impatient) and try it out. I will keep making sporadic test lathers to see if I can observe some sort of change. I am allready very happy with the ease and quality of lather I'm getting, so that can only improve over time. I allways use the same boar brush when trying new soaps, the Semogue 1305. 

Next scary step is the adition of some sort of fragrance. The animal base stearic does not smell very good. Is the palm based variation better?


----------



## LBussy

True enough - there is a lot of personal opinion in the clay debate.  Empirical evidence is tough to come by, but we have a body of anecdotal evidence that is becoming strong enough to be a guide.  If nothing else, it is difficult to discern what clay brings to an otherwise good soap.  There is some bad press as well, since some soapers simply added clay to bath/face soap and called it shaving soap.   It was not.  Try it for yourself though *after* you get a good recipe.  That way you know whether it is a band-aid or an improvement.

I don't have a source for animal based stearic so I can't comment.  Are you in the US?  If so, from where was it sourced?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

For me, the extra glycerin that we add is in place of clay - so if I can add glycerin and not clay then the anecdotal evidence is enough for me to make an easy choice. No one ever hated a soap that had the added glycerin in lieu of clay!

That said, some people think it is a case of adding clay or nothing at all, which does result in a bad soap. You need clay or added glycerin for a good soap


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## Bagaudae

I'm European, Portuguese to be more precise. I got my supplies from granvelada.com.es , a spanish based store. It was tagged as material for candle making. They had both vegetal and animal and I chose the animal, because there is a commonly accepted impression that overall, old animal based soaps were better than their all-vegetable versions. Not sure how much of this is myth and how much is true. 

I added 40g of glycerine right after the iven and stirred until completely mixed.

Can I reheat part of this batch and add FO? Even though I made a small amount, i ended up with about 200g of soap. It's way more than I can use in a reasonably short period. I want to tweak and try at a faster pace, and I don't want to just throw it in the bin.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I have a very accurate scale, it does 0.1g increments, so I risked making 50g batches to test. I once made some 25g batches but that was far too tight on the margin for error for me to be comfortable


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## LBussy

If you are sure you can be accurate, you can grate, reheat with a touch of water and add fragrance oil.


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## Bagaudae

I didn't wait. Not even a week. I just shaved with it and it was awesome! But I really need to get it at least a decent smell. The current state is a deal breaker, despite the great lather. 
I can't be all that accurate, weight wise, but I can be fairly accurate with volume.


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## Bagaudae

Sorry for the double post, but I have been on the lookout for Ingredients list of good Shaving Soaps. One of them is the italian brand Mondial. The list mentions, as expected, stearic, water, cocoa, potassium and sodium hidroxide and parfum. The last ingredient left me adrift: potassium carbonate. As I understand it, this is a weaker base than the hidroxides, right? What is the purpose of this ingredient? Anyone has a clue? Could it be a "slower" base as a strategy to address the high stearic problem?


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## LBussy

Potassium carbonate is a byproduct of manufacturing potassium lye.  It could be that they had a traditional recipe that was formulated with this taken into account and when they switched to a higher purity source they simply added some back in to account for it.  It's an ingredient often seen in the more traditional Italian siaps and not often in newer ones.  We've talked about it here and on the shaving forums and by and large we've discounted it as necessary.

I have tried Mondial and find it similar to many of the Italian "croaps" such as Cella, P.160 and the like.  I'm a huge fan.  I've shared a recipe that makes a fair approximation here:  http://www.silverfoxcrafts.com/shaving-soap/

I do not use or advocate the use of Sodium Hydroxide.  I feel skipping it results in a superior soap.  The recipe as outlined is plenty hard enough to form pucks if desired, but as you know, Italian croaps are used in a dish so that's not a concern for me.


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## Bagaudae

Thanks for the insight and the link!
It's funny how things work. One year ago I used an electric shaver and usually had a 3-5 day beard at all times, mainly because shaving was such a pain, and I don't say that figurativeley, It was indeed a painful chore. Then I (re)discovered wet shaving and went all in. Now I'm making shaving soap all by myself. 

EDIT: 
@LBussy: I'm just going through Silver Fox Crafts and I'm loving it. I do identify myself A LOT (otherwise I wouldn't be making soap, I have about a kg of shaving soap from various brands & flavours so I don't really need it. I just want it.) and I hope to give something to the community in exchange for what I have recieved. I am sure to keep you in the loop when I do. And again, thank you and all the others!


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## LBussy

I had the same journey ... didn't stop till I had taken up straight razors as well.  Now I have a few very nice Fillarmonica.


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## Bagaudae

Yet another question. If I don't add FO when I make the soap, can I add it afterwards? If so, how could that work, I reheat the soap and it turns soft again? Will I need to wait another few weeks after that, or I can consider the cure "done"?
Thanks in advance


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## DeeAnna

If the soap is soft, like artist's clay, you can knead scent and other additives into the soap by hand if you're patient. Just like kneading bread. Wear gloves to keep the concentrated scent off your skin.

Earlier, you asked why stearic acid is so temperamental. It's not really, but you are comparing stearic acid to fat, and they are not the same. A triglyceride (in other words, any fat you would make into soap) is three fatty acids hooked to a backbone of glycerin. Any given molecule of fat has three fatty acids in many different combinations. Stearic acid happens to be one of those FAs.

The likelihood of any particular fatty acid in a fat molecule is determined by the kind of fat you have. For example, coconut oil has a lot of lauric acid and myristic acid. Olive oil has very little to none of these two fatty acids.  

When you make soap using fats, the lye has to break the fatty acids off the glycerin and then the lye has to react with each fatty acid. The breakdown step is the hardest. This first step is why it takes hours and sometimes days to completely finish the saponification reaction. The reaction with the free fatty acid is really easy and fast.

Stearic acid is the fatty acid that's already been split away from the glycerin, so when you use stearic acid (or any other fatty acid) to make soap, the hard part of the saponification reaction is already done. So all the lye has to do is the easy part -- hook itself to the fatty acid to finish the job. This happens in seconds.


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## LBussy

One of the other members I think uses a salad shooter to grate the soap, zaps it in the microwave with a few drops of water, and adds the fragrance at that time.  I've never done it myself but it's definitely done.

Cured is cured, I would assume it to be done after that if it was already cured.


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## Bagaudae

Thanks for the replies, useful as usual!

I think I may have a bad batch of SA. Both for the intense smell, it smells more like tallow than tallow itself, and for the  erratic behaviour. I did another batch, similar in every way as the first one and this time the soap turned out very hard. The first time it came out very soft, same or even softer than Cella (italian "croap"). Now it is almost as hard as any triple milled. 
I tried to repeat the same conditions, so It might be an unaccurate scale (very possible) or the oven isn't accurate enough, not sure the temperature would change the result so dramatically. 

Either way, I'm getting another batch of StearicAcid from a different supplier and see how that comes up. 

Thanks all for the help. It has been a very interesting journey with lots of fun learning.


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## Bagaudae

Greeting again. And again, sorry for the double post. 

I got myself some new SA, this time palm SA. The datasheetcan be found here, in case someone wants to take a look. 

This time arround it came out exactly how I would expect it would be. I followed the original poster recipe almost entirely (I was a couple of grams short on the coconut) and all the steps were pretty musch as described. 

The result is also very good, even though I would like to tweak it a bit more to my taste. 
A week after I made it, it lathers very very easily. It is also one of the most forgiving soaps as for the "water needed" that I have tried. It is a bit on the thirsty side, but I think it is better now than what it was a day after it's birth, so it can even improve further in the next couple of weeks until cure is complete. 

I have also started to fiddle with fragrances and EO and also on that side I'm satisfied with the results. The fragrance is a bit on the dull side, It probably lacks the depth of a well thought and composed mixture. I just poured equal parts of "cedarwood" and "sweet orange" (bothe EO). I like it, and that's all that matters 

I come again for Your help because I don't know in wich direction to go to tailor this recipe more to my preferences. 
Right now recipe is as follows:
55%SA 
45%CO 
full KOH at 38%. 
I'm using 5% SF and a total of 15% oil weight of glicerine. (200g Oils and about 30g Glicerine)


The lather this soap provides is good enough, but if I consider a range of lathers that go from lotion-like to bubble-bath or if you prefer, from very thick to very light and airy, this soap is a bit on the airy side. Note that the lather is great and it is superior to some other well known and generaly accepted soaps that I have tried. This is a matter of personal preference and fine tunning.

What I would like is for it to be a bit more rich and "heavy". It lathers so easily that I am willing to sacrifice some of that for a bit more creamy thick lather.
I was thinking in introducing some other one or two oils that can make this happen. And this is where I need some help. 

Should I tone down on the stearic and introduce some olive oil, maybe shea butter, maybe both? 

Thanks again for the time spent with a newbie. It is much appreciated.


----------



## LBussy

I found myself in the same place as you ... lather exploded before you even knew it, but it lacked some protective properties.  Here is an example of a way to go that's worked for me:

45% Stearic Acid
25% Coconut Oil
20% Beef Tallow
5% Lanolin
5% Shea Butter
5% Superfat
Additional Glycerin at 11% of the total oil weight

Tallow is THE fat to use for shaving soap as far as I am concerned.  The shea and lanolin is split to use half of each after the cook as the superfat.

If you don't/won't use animal fats, well, maybe this will give you some ideas anyway.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

No olive. Never olive! It is the worst for a shaving soap. Try tallow, taking the co down to make room - try the tallow at 20% for a starting point and see what you make of it. Will be creamier.


----------



## songwind

Tallow, lard, or castor oil will make it creamier. The bubbly factor is largely due to the coconut oil, so I'd look at reducing that moreso than the stearic.


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## Bagaudae

Problem is I can't find tallow from a reliable source. Seems like all the online shops for soap making supplies are into the full vegan wave and animal based ingredients are hard to come by. I don't say this with any intent to depreciate, it's just what it is. 

I can get lard easily though. Is culinary lard OK? If so, I can grab it at any supermarket. Sometimes I even have it laying arround the house. 

I will try to cut the CO in, let´s say, 10% and substitute that for lard. 
By doing so will I need extra care as for the SuperFat goes? I mean is it OK to end up with some lard unsaponified? I was thinking I can add the CO last and that would force all the Stearic and Lard to be consumed and all the free fats would come from the CO. Not sure this makes any sense at all, I think I read something in this direction and I think I also read that this is rubish and I can go and just melt all the fats and pour that lye in it.


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## Susie

If you are in the US, you can purchase tallow online at several soap suppliers.  Shaving soap is one place that you can't substitute lard for tallow.


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## songwind

Bagaudae said:


> Problem is I can't find tallow from a reliable source. Seems like all the online shops for soap making supplies are into the full vegan wave and animal based ingredients are hard to come by. I don't say this with any intent to depreciate, it's just what it is.



I buy mine from soaperschoice.com, but you have to buy at least 7lbs. You can also order it from Amazon but it's pretty expensive that way. 



> I can get lard easily though. Is culinary lard OK? If so, I can grab it at any supermarket. Sometimes I even have it laying arround the house.



Yep, lard is lard. I haven't personally made a shaving soap with lard, but in theory it should be possible.



> I will try to cut the CO in, let´s say, 10% and substitute that for lard.
> By doing so will I need extra care as for the SuperFat goes? I mean is it OK to end up with some lard unsaponified? I was thinking I can add the CO last and that would force all the Stearic and Lard to be consumed and all the free fats would come from the CO. Not sure this makes any sense at all, I think I read something in this direction and I think I also read that this is rubish and I can go and just melt all the fats and pour that lye in it.



You could try to do it that way, but even then you wouldn't really control which oils are in the superfat. The only way to do that would be to wait until the soap was 100% cooked and add extra oils. You could do the math and withhold whatever weight of CO is equivalent to your superfat, I suppose.

I just melt it all and mix it all with lye.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

As Susie said, lard cannot replace tallow in a shave soap. I have made both, and the tallow is far better for this particular job


----------



## kc1ble

Bagaudae said:


> Problem is I can't find tallow from a reliable source. Seems like all the online shops for soap making supplies are into the full vegan wave and animal based ingredients are hard to come by. I don't say this with any intent to depreciate, it's just what it is.
> 
> I can get lard easily though. Is culinary lard OK? If so, I can grab it at any supermarket. Sometimes I even have it laying arround the house.
> 
> I will try to cut the CO in, let´s say, 10% and substitute that for lard.
> By doing so will I need extra care as for the SuperFat goes? I mean is it OK to end up with some lard unsaponified? I was thinking I can add the CO last and that would force all the Stearic and Lard to be consumed and all the free fats would come from the CO. Not sure this makes any sense at all, I think I read something in this direction and I think I also read that this is rubish and I can go and just melt all the fats and pour that lye in it.



I had the same problem so I went to the grocer and bought some suet in the meat counter.  Chop it up and let it render in the crock pot all day.  All you have to do is give it a little stir once in a while.  So easy its not even funny, and worth it in the long run.


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## Bagaudae

I'm in Europe. The tail of Europe actually (Portugal). 

For what I heard in an unrelated business ( metal polishing pastes) the use of animal based fats was subject to heavy european regulations, for other than food uses. I will broaden my spectrum. There are a lot of spanish, italian, german and french and even a few well reputed portuguese soap makers. I'm sure I will eventually find some suplier who can give me cow fat rather than pig fat. That's mainly the difference, right? 

I could also get in touch with my butcher, get some beef fat and render the tallow myself, as kc1ble said..


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## IrishLass

Bagaudae said:
			
		

> What I would like is for it to be a bit more rich and "heavy". It lathers so easily that I am willing to sacrifice some of that for a bit more creamy thick lather.


 
To add more of a creamy oomph to your shaving lather, keep the stearic where it is, but reduce the coconut to make room for more of the 'creamy' fats/oils. Some excellent candidates for creating a creamy oomph to your lather are castor oil, avocado oil, lard, butters such as shea, cocoa, mango, etc... (especially the shea). 

For what it's worth (to give you an idea of how low you can go on the coconut and still make a shaving soap with great lather), my shave croap contains only a total of 10% of the bubbly oils (a combo of coconut oil and PKO). Although adding lots of coconut oil will definitely make a shave soap that's very easy to lather, you can get by with reducing it way down by increasing your ratio of KOH to NaOH (or just by using 100% KOH). 




Bagaudae said:


> Problem is I can't find tallow from a reliable source. Seems like all the online shops for soap making supplies are into the full vegan wave and animal based ingredients are hard to come by. I don't say this with any intent to depreciate, it's just what it is.


 
To kinda/sorta mimic the qualities that tallow brings, a ratio of 18% stearic acid to 82% lard just might do the trick.




Bagaudae said:


> I can get lard easily though. Is culinary lard OK? If so, I can grab it at any supermarket. Sometimes I even have it laying arround the house.


 
Culinary lard is actually pretty much the only kind we soaper's use, so you're good to go. 



Bagaudae said:


> I will try to cut the CO in, let´s say, 10% and substitute that for lard.
> By doing so will I need extra care as for the SuperFat goes? I mean is it OK to end up with some lard unsaponified?


 
Unsaponifiable components aside, it's actually very hard for specific "whole" fats, or only the fatty acids from an individual fat, to remain as a superfat. It turns out from experiments done by Dr. Kevin Dunn that things are much more complicated than that.... 

The following is a rough description, but basically, when fats are mixed with lye, they are broken down into their individual fatty acids, in effect turning your soaping pot into a big mishmash/smorgasbord of mixed fatty acids from all of your combined fats for the lye to feast on.... Although the lye has its preferences for what fatty acids it likes to eat first, it will eventually gobble down everything that agrees with it's digestive system (i.e. saponifiables vs. unsaponifiables), and as much of it as will fit in its stomach (i.e., however much of a percent you discounted the lye in your batch).

What this all means in the end is that if your recipe has a built-in/up-front superfat/lye discount of 5%, and you add all your oils/fats together up front (or even leave some out to add later at heavy trace when the lye is still very active), your resulting soap will have roughly 5% unsaponified fatty acids in it that are a generic mixture/mishmash of the fatty acids from all your fats combined (plus however much unsaponifiable material that the lye is normally unable to digest)......... 

If you are into Star Trek at all, you can basically think of lye as being the Borg- i.e., there is no more individualism- all the individual fats have been broken down into their basic components and have become part of the Borg (lye) collective......or something like that. lol

Many try to manipulate which fatty acids or which specific oils/fats will remain as a superfat by adding that specific fat/oil after the cook when there is no more zap, which will certainly give you the best chance at it, but it's not an 100% ironclad guarantee since soap does not exactly remain a static entity fixed in time and space. Microscopic changes continue to go on inside the soap to help it to maintain equilibrium, especially when it's lathered with water when you bathe/shower. 

Your best bet, if you ask me, is to add some oils fats to your formula that are made up of a good amount of unsaponifiables, like shea butter, for example.


IrishLass


----------



## LBussy

Once you try a shaving soap with tallow, you wonder why you ever tried all those other things.  I've formulated some all-veg soaps which technically were materially similar in their fat profiles but it's just not the same.  I understand and support people's choice to be veg, I'm just glad I'm not.


----------



## Bagaudae

This has been very educating, as usual. Thank you all for that.

I have been browsing the forum, there is even a thread about UK based suppliers, and I did found ONE supplier that does sell tallow (soap kitchen) and it does ship to Portugal, problem is shipping prices are quite high. Considering I was planning on buying 1kg of CO and maybe another kg of Tallow, I would pay a total of 28-30€ for 8€ worth of supplies 

I think I will keep searching and maybe try to get in touch with local artisan soap makers. Facebook groups and such will probably help me with that. 

@LBussy:_ " I understand and support people's choice to be veg, I'm just glad I'm not."_  Although I would certainly like to see animal exploration a bit more "humane", I completely agree with that one!


----------



## mistral

LBussy said:


> Once you try a shaving soap with tallow, you wonder why you ever tried all those other things.  I've formulated some all-veg soaps which technically were materially similar in their fat profiles but it's just not the same.  I understand and support people's choice to be veg, I'm just glad I'm not.



If possible, I'd love to see some of your non-tallow recipes which you are proud of  Thanks.


----------



## LBussy

mistral said:


> If possible, I'd love to see some of your non-tallow recipes which you are proud of  Thanks.


I don't have any which I think are a straight replacement, sadly.  I don't know any man who make their own tallow soap who have ever come up with a non-tallow soap they like.  That's a telling state of being.  Of course I know maybe five men who make their own tallow soaps.

I believe the most critical use for a shaving soap is a straight razor shave on a face.  Since that's generally on a man it's not a sexist thing, just a statistical probability.  There's probably a lot more people out there who don't use a straight razor, so probably a lot more who would be just as happy with a slightly less protective shave. I'm just not one of those people.  So you have this subset, this very small, very opinionated core of crazy wet-shaver dudes who demand tallow.  

It's not like I demand an animal sacrifice, it's just that I can really tell the difference.  I suspect it's the non-saponifiables in tallow which lend the properties which make it such a fine addition to shaving soap.  I'd be more than happy to like a soap made with non-animal based fats.  I've just not met one yet.

You might try:

40% Stearic Acid
18% Coconut Oil
18% Palm Kernel Oil Flakes
17% Shea Butter
7% Castor oil
7% Superfat
100% KOH

I've made this but I did not reserve the Shea as superfat.  If I was going to do it again I would reserve a third of the Shea to be added after the cook with the fragrance oils.  Don't tell anyone this die-hard Tallow user developed a non-tallow soap but this was a gift for a vegan friend.  

It's not bad, I just prefer the tallow (and lanolin) better.  Process is a big part of it too so maybe reserving the shea as superfat will make a big enough difference.


----------



## mistral

LBussy said:


> I don't have any which I think are a straight replacement, sadly.  I don't know any man who make their own tallow soap who have ever come up with a non-tallow soap they like.  That's a telling state of being.  Of course I know maybe five men who make their own tallow soaps.
> 
> I believe the most critical use for a shaving soap is a straight razor shave on a face.  Since that's generally on a man it's not a sexist thing, just a statistical probability.  There's probably a lot more people out there who don't use a straight razor, so probably a lot more who would be just as happy with a slightly less protective shave. I'm just not one of those people.  So you have this subset, this very small, very opinionated core of crazy wet-shaver dudes who demand tallow.
> 
> It's not like I demand an animal sacrifice, it's just that I can really tell the difference.  I suspect it's the non-saponifiables in tallow which lend the properties which make it such a fine addition to shaving soap.  I'd be more than happy to like a soap made with non-animal based fats.  I've just not met one yet.
> 
> You might try:
> 
> 40% Stearic Acid
> 18% Coconut Oil
> 18% Palm Kernel Oil Flakes
> 17% Shea Butter
> 7% Castor oil
> 7% Superfat
> 100% KOH
> 
> I've made this but I did not reserve the Shea as superfat.  If I was going to do it again I would reserve a third of the Shea to be added after the cook with the fragrance oils.  Don't tell anyone this die-hard Tallow user developed a non-tallow soap but this was a gift for a vegan friend.
> 
> It's not bad, I just prefer the tallow (and lanolin) better.  Process is a big part of it too so maybe reserving the shea as superfat will make a big enough difference.




Thanks Lee! I'll give it a shot.


----------



## dosco

LBussy said:


> I don't have any which I think are a straight replacement, sadly.  I don't know any man who make their own tallow soap who have ever come up with a non-tallow soap they like.



I like my lard-based shave soap. I know that you don't like it as much as tallow-based shave soap.

I do concur with your opinion regarding the lardy smell ... but with that said, my latest batches (which now incorporate shea butter as the superfat, and extra glycerine) are, IMO, very nice. At least as good as the tallow-based stuff I've made.

With that said, I do plan to purchase some tallow and make more tallow-based stuff.

Cheers-
Dave

PS: what "non-saponifiables" in tallow are you thinking of?


----------



## LBussy

LBussy said:


> You might try:
> 
> 40% Stearic Acid
> 18% Coconut Oil
> 18% Palm Kernel Oil Flakes
> 17% Shea Butter
> 7% Castor oil
> 7% Superfat
> 100% KOH


An addendum - I would use between 11%-15% of the oil weight in additional glycerin on this.  I might be forgetting something else so I would have made this just like my Tallow soap but with this recipe.


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## LBussy

dosco said:


> PS: what "non-saponifiables" in tallow are you thinking of?


I have no idea what they are and that's one of those things I prefer not to think about.  :mrgreen:  I just know there's a deficit when you look at the SAP number vs. the actual weight - something is left over.  I chalk that up to "the flavor" and leave it at that.

That's why my veg version uses so much Shea - it has a lot of unsaponifiables and the feel is a lot closer to a tallow soap.


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## dudeitsashley

TheDragonGirl said:


> Finally got it done, I'm going to have to pick up a shaving brush to really test it but just with my hand I love the lather, and it shaves really nicely (not that I have much to compare it to personally except syndets and canned shaving cream, which I used to use)
> I ended up going with peppermint/basil, and I thought the cooling effect was really nice, though I can see what you mean by it not really having a good bite to it just using the oils


I know that this is from an older post but, I am hoping that someone can tell me where I might get those jars.


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## LBussy

dudeitsashley said:


> I know that this is from an older post but, I am hoping that someone can tell me where I might get those jars.


Hm .... is this some sort of test?  I see broken links, no images.


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## DeeAnna

Refresh your browser, Lee? I see them. Here --


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## kchaystack

dudeitsashley said:


> I know that this is from an older post but, I am hoping that someone can tell me where I might get those jars.



THe look like simple clear jars like these:

http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/2-oz-clear-heavy-wall-plastic-jar-58-400.aspx

Not sure how much they hold from the pic tho.


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## LBussy

I see them in your post DeeAnna, just not the others.  Strangeness .....


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## TheDragonGirl

dudeitsashley said:


> I know that this is from an older post but, I am hoping that someone can tell me where I might get those jars.



oops I didnt see this!

http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/3-oz-natural-low-profile-plastic-jar-top.aspx these are the ones


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## dudeitsashley

TheDragonGirl said:


> oops I didnt see this!
> 
> http://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/products/3-oz-natural-low-profile-plastic-jar-top.aspx these are the ones


Thank you!


----------



## TheDragonGirl

dudeitsashley said:


> Thank you!



No problem!


----------



## gdawgs

I'm still working my way through this thread, but there was some talk early on about PVC molds and getting them to work well with this soap.  I made(well that's kind of an overstatement, I just assembled parts from the plumbing aisle) this mold and a ram rod to pack the mold during filling, and to remove the soap once it has cooled.  So what I did was scoop some hot soap into the mold, then pack it in with the rod.  Then add more, pack, etc.  To get the soap out once cooled, I just wacked the ram rod on the ground.  It took a little persuasion, but it wasn't too bad to remove.  

Here are the two parts.  The tube in the back is the mold.  It is just 2" PVC with a cap on the end.  The front one is the ram rod.  That is 1.25" PVC with a cap on it.





Here's a pic of the ram rod just being inserted into the mold.  You can see it has a nice tight fit.  But has a little clearance to let the air out as you compress.






Here's my batch after I got it out of the mold.  There's a bulge at the left end.  That part of the soap was out of the mold while I was still whacking the ram rod on the ground to remove the soap.  So that section compressed together a bit.  I'll have to be more careful with that next time.






Here's the cut batch.  I may have misjudged my batch size.  This is a lot of soap!  Disregard the one in the upper left corner and the one on the table.  Those were done in a silicone muffin pan.


----------



## pmartin

So, I'm ready to start my third batch. My first two came out good but not as slick as I think they should be. What contributes to slickness (besides clay).


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## LBussy

I believe you will find tallow contributes quite a bit to perceived slickness.  I use 20% and noted that 40% was too "greasy" for me - even using the same superfat.  

Also, if you are not adding glycerin, make sure you do so.  I use 11%, you can use a little more if you like.


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## pmartin

Thanks for the reply, i was hoping you would answer.

I do use tallow and glycerin. 

I'm thinking maybe it should be what NOT to use or maybe smaller percentages to give slickness. Could it be other oils added after cooking that give slickness?

My best recipe so far is -
45% stearic acid
30% tallow
15% coconut
10% shea butter

Superfat is 4%
11% glycerin

potassium and sodium hydroxide 70/30 split

Do you think too much stearic acid subtracts from slickness? Also I was touching the glycerin and it feels sticky. Does it make the soap sticky or does it change somehow in the batter? I bought some lanolin oil and it is really sticky so I'm afraid to use it since my goal with this batch is slick, slick, slick!


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## LBussy

Try a 100% KOH recipe and see what you think.  I believe it's slicker than NaOH (hard to prove but worth an experiment).   Make sure to use enough water.  As you note glycerin is sticky without enough water and KOH does like more water.  With enough water, glycerin is not sticky.

I really like lanolin in the soap, the amount we use is not enough to make it sticky to my thinking.  It's very easy on the skin and leaves a nice feel afterwards.

More tallow will definitely make it slicker if that's really what you want.   At least it did for me.  Try 5% more tallow and 5% less of the SA and see if that helps.

I don't think stearic subtracts from slickness per se, and you definitely need it for that dense lather.   Tallow has a good bit of stearic in it so dropping one and subbing in the other is a reasonable experiment.

It's hard for me to think about a soap according to your recipe that's not real slick.  Is there a commercial soap that has the slickness you are trying to emulate?


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## Mendawing

Where do I find this recipe?  I am new on this site and I would love to give it a try.  Just to clarify, this is hot process?


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## shunt2011

Mendawing said:


> Where do I find this recipe?  I am new on this site and I would love to give it a try.  Just to clarify, this is hot process?




Read through this thread and you will glean a whole lot of information. Yes, shave soap is made hot process due to the high stearic content.  Welcome!


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## Mark the Box Guy

I'm just stunned that this thread still has life. I still use my tub o' soap... it's got legs.


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## Gtrs-N-Golf

After reading the entire thread I decided to give shaving soap a try. For my first run I started with the recipe that started the whole thread (52/48 SA/CO). I made 1/3 lb as that's as low as I can go on my less than ideal scale. The only change I made was instead of 15% PPO glycerine I did a combo of glycerine, shea and lanolin. All were added after the ~1.5 hour cook. I also added sodium lactate to the lye water. For the scent I tried to dup. one of my favorite scents in the shaving world -- the nancy boy original shave cream -- which is a wonderful peppermint/lavender/rosemary blend. I was a bit too tentative in my use of peppermint and the overall scent strength, but it was my first try.

It made enough to fill this large cappuccino mug and 3/4 and it probably a year's worth of soap! It only has about a 12 hour cure, so it's still got some time to age, but I must say I'm quite pleased. The performance reminds me a lot of the MdC, LASS, LPL style of soap. It lathers quickly and easily, it isn't very thirsty and has what I'd consider average slickness and protection. 

With this under my belt I'm going to give a tallow soap a go to see if I can improve on slickness and cushion.

All in all a wonderful experience to be my first attempt!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Nice. But the slickness from the glycerine is important- it's not something that comes from an oil-type ingredient. For example, I use Shea, avocado and lanolin in my superfat, but still add the full amount of glycerine in. It's not an either/or arrangement, rather both are needed.


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## LBussy

Water is important but obviously too much water makes thin lather.  Glycerin is that which allows the lather to hold more water without thinning it out.   I agree with Craig - go 11-15% glycerin and count fats as superfats.   

Put just a drop of glycerin on top of the soap next time you make a lather and see the difference a touch more will make.  I think you will enjoy the difference.


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## Gtrs-N-Golf

Thanks for the comments and pointers! I'll try a drop of glycerine next time I use it. I'm going to let it cure for a week or 2 and see what that does. 

I ended up using 10% PPO glycerine and the remainder of the 5% of super fat was a combo of shea and lanolin. I can't measure that small of amounts on my scale but I do know I ended up with +15% PPO in the end with 10% of that being glycerine.

Next up -- tallow. Probably something really close to the silver fox recipe.


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## Gtrs-N-Golf

First tallow soap is out of the pot. This is a recipe I've been wanting to try out for a while. It's mainly Tallow, kokum & coconut super fatted with glycerine, shea, lanolin and avocado oils. It's just been out of the pot for a few hours but I couldn't help but whip up a lather. It's a very different kind of lather from the veggie version. It's dense and unctuous. I'll be interested to see how it cures. I palm lathered it and my hands feel like I just left the spa from a world class manicure. I have no idea how it'll shave, but for conditioning and creamy lather it's a home run!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Again, the glycerine is nothing to do with the superfat. Please try to break that link in your thinking.


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## DeeAnna

I second The Gent. Glycerin does not saponify, so by definition it cannot be a superfat. Best to just call it an additive to avoid misunderstandings.


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## LBussy

You can tell it's different just by the pics.  Do share the shave report after it has a chance to cure a bit.


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## Gtrs-N-Golf

@LBussy will do!

@The Efficacious Gentleman and @DeeAnna thanks for the clarification. Obviously I'm very much new to this and have a lot to learn.


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## DeeAnna

We all have been newbies at one time or another -- welcome to the club!


----------



## Lathersuds

I know this post is quite old but having made shaving soaps before I use a 70/30 ratio of koh to naoh as my lye.  I also add sweet almond oil and Shea Butter, wanted to emulate am Italian soap that uses the same ingredients.  Using the stearic acid along with the rest of my oils it is hard to mix since the stearic acid traces almost instantly, so I'm going to melt the stearic acid separate and add it later to the other oils as some has suggested. 
My question is do I add all the lye water to the other oils all at once then add the stearic acid later on or do I split the lye water enough to saponify the other oils and add the rest of the lye water when I add the stearic acid into the rest of the oils? I also thought of using just koh to saponify the stearic acid only and the 70/30 for the other oils and butter, problem is calculating how much lye to use when I split them up if this is a good idea? 
Also if I were to use just koh for the stearic acid how do I calculate how much koh to use just for the stearic acid especially since I'll be mixing it in with the other oils and butters saponified with the 70/30 lye ratio, is there a soap calc out there I can use to determine how much lye I need to saponify the stearic acid based on weight instead of percentage? And also since I'll be combining it with the rest of the other oils and butters that already have some lye added will this be an accurate use of the amount of lye even if I calculated the correct amount of lye to use for just the stearic acid because I'll be combining it later to the other oils that already have saponified to a certain extent? 

Any advice, recommendation is really appreciated.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...My question is do I add all the lye water to the other oils all at once then add the stearic acid later on..."

Yes. That is how I do it anyways. I don't think the other way will be wrong or bad -- it just adds one more step to remember. 

"..I also thought of using just koh to saponify the stearic acid only and the 70/30 for the other oils and butter, problem is calculating how much lye to use when I split them up if this is a good idea?..."

Don't know if it's a good idea or not -- some shave soaps are apparently made this way and I suppose there's a reason for that. Might want to give it a try and see if it's worth the trouble.

"...Also if I were to use just koh for the stearic acid how do I calculate how much koh to use just for the stearic acid..."

The way I'd do it is treat the two parts of this soap -- the fat part and the stearic acid part -- as two completely separate soaps. You'd calculate the lye for one part as one recipe and the lye for the other part as a second recipe.

"...is there a soap calc out there I can use to determine how much lye I need to saponify the stearic acid based on weight instead of percentage?..."

Soapcalc, summerbeemeadow, soapee, etc. -- pretty much all of the calcs will calculate recipes based on weights as well as percentages. I'm a little puzzled ???

"... since I'll be combining it with the rest of the other oils and butters that already have some lye added will this be an accurate use of the amount of lye even if I calculated the correct amount of lye to use for just the stearic acid because I'll be combining it later to the other oils that already have saponified to a certain extent?..."

Perhaps you may be overthinking this. Or maybe I'm not understanding your thoughts correctly.

If you calculate the lye to sufficiently saponify one part of your fats or stearic acid ... and calculate the lye to sufficiently saponify the other part ... then why would it make any difference if you later combined the two parts into one batch of soap? The lye needed for sufficient saponification of the two independent parts is the lye needed for sufficient saponification of the whole.


----------



## Lathersuds

DeeAnna, thank you so much for your response, you've definitely cleared up and answered a lot of questions, you were right I'm over thinking it and it just confused more, reason I asked if it's ok to use the same amount of lye even if I calculated it correctly using soap calc and mixing it with the rest later on as I've read somewhere how some do it in stages and as it gets hotter initially with the early stages adding the stearic acid later on along with the calculated koh may ruin the batch as it will obviously get hotter even more as soon as I add more koh along with the the stearic acid, but I may be over thinking it as you had mentioned. 

I apologize for not responding sooner as I was going to wait until I figured out my final recipe for this batch and do some math on it. 

I do have a couple more questions if you don't mind, last time I used a bit too much water so had to wait longer to let it dry completely and also wanted to let it cure longer as I have read the longer you let it cure the better, it did perform well but by that time the scent has vanished and became unscented, perhaps I will need to use more fragrance oil / essential oil I plan to let it sit at least another 2 weeks to even several weeks after the cook, I imagine the soapers that do this must use a lot of frgrance or essential oils as the fragrance get weaker the longer I let it dry. 

Also when I calculate the recipe separately since I'll be using both koh and naoh,  the water required when I calculate for the 100% koh and 100% naoh I always need more water for the koh as compared to the naoh, how should I calculate the water I need? It seems even using the water required for koh is not enough which is why I added more water last time and it seems like I have used too much because my earlier attempt I couldn't mix it hardly due to the stearic acid hardens up the mixture too fast. 

This time however I will separate the stearic acid so I'll have ample time to mix the other oils. 

My last question is that I noticed some soapers use sodium chloride and others also add potassium carbonate. 

I imagine this would have something to do with making the soap dry faster, in the case of sodium chloride which is basically salt with water how much should I use and when do I add it in? Is there a certain ready made sodium chloride for soap? 
or a recipe to make one depending on the concentration? 

I do use sodium lactate but I think the use of sodium chloride will help the soap dry faster or even make it firmir?  Sodium lactate helps in making the soap more firm and easier to mold, but it does bring in more moisture since it's also a humectant. 

Also soapers that use sodium chloride are usually the ones that use koh exclusively for their lye. 

I look forward to more of your valuable advice and knowledge. 

I'll be sure to post my results once I'm able to make this next batch of shaving soap. Thank you very much for all your help.


----------



## DeeAnna

Hey there -- I have a gentle suggestion for you to consider. You are asking technical questions that require careful thought to answer fully. Unfortunately, your "stream of consciousness" writing style is unusually difficult to follow. I first have to parse what you're saying, and then I have think about how to answer. Please make an effort to write more clearly and concisely, so it's not so difficult for the reader to understand your words. You will have a much better chance of getting the valuable advice you are seeking.


----------



## Lathersuds

I apologize for the way I wrote my questions. I actually just read it and I can see how confusing it sounds. 

I get too far ahead of my thoughts and just jump to writing my questions and comments from one topic to another, I realized I'm trying to ask and explain too many questions and topics in a single paragraph jumping from one topic to another, thank you for pointing that out to me. 

I hope I haven't confused you yet =). 

I should point out that I understood your explanations and answers to my previous questions clearly and I really appreciate you taking the time to do so. 

I'll try to make this short and sweet and to the point. 

1. I noticed some soapers add Potassium Carbonate and others add Sodium Chloride, from what I understand as some people had tried to explain from another forum is that it's mainly used to expedite the drying process of hot processed shaving soap or to make it firmer. ( I use Sodium lactate to make it firmer and easier to mold) 

2. I am more concerned about speeding up the drying process or any other benefits when adding Sodium Chloride or Potassium Carbonate but I have no idea how much to add or how to make it when it comes to using Sodium Chloride, I know it's just salt but there's still the question of how to use it, when to add it and how to make it and why it's used? 

3. I noticed most of the soapers that add Sodium Chloride are also the ones that only use Koh to saponify their shaving soaps which makes sense since their usually soft with no Sodium Hydroxide like Marten de Candre and a few others with similar ingredients. 

3. Potassium Carbonate are also used by some soapers that use both Koh and Naoh. 
I googled and found Potassium Carbonate for sale for soaps but it does not explain why or how they should be used.  

I'm hoping you would have more information regarding the use of both Sodium Chloride or Potassium Carbonate in shaving soaps,or anyone out there that could chime in. 

I should mention that these ingredients are usually listed last in the list of ingredients in shaving soaps so clearly it's not part of the main ingredients but I feel it could make quite a difference in the end result of a shaving soap. 

I hope I have not confused again with my writing and thank you so much for all the help and your contributions.


----------



## DeeAnna

_1. I noticed some soapers add Potassium Carbonate and others add Sodium Chloride, from what I understand as some people had tried to explain from another forum is that it's mainly used to expedite the drying process of hot processed shaving soap or to make it firmer. ( I use Sodium lactate to make it firmer and easier to mold) _

Use whatever you like to get the soap qualities you want. I don't use any of these chemicals in my shave soap, so I can't comment on exactly what qualities people think they bring to this type of soap. Perhaps others will chime in with their thoughts. The only caution I have is please don't confuse the process of curing a soap with the firmness or texture of the soap.

_2. I am more concerned about speeding up the drying process or any other benefits when adding Sodium Chloride or Potassium Carbonate but I have no idea how much to add or how to make it when it comes to using Sodium Chloride, I know it's just salt but there's still the question of how to use it, when to add it and how to make it and why it's used_? 

Sodium chloride is added to a potassium soap to partly convert the potassium soap to sodium soap. This will tend to firm up the soap to some degree. You can achieve similar results by using a blend of NaOH and KOH.

Again -- adding NaCl will NOT reduce the cure time for any soap. Don't confuse the change in texture/firmness/softness by using an additive with the goals of curing -- loss of moisture, development of crystal structure, and increase in mildness. A hard NaOH soap with 30% water, for example, has just as much water to lose as a softer KOH soap with the same 30% water. 

_3. I noticed most of the soapers that add Sodium Chloride are also the ones that only use Koh to saponify their shaving soaps which makes sense since their usually soft with no Sodium Hydroxide like Marten de Candre and a few others with similar ingredients. _

See #2.

_3. Potassium Carbonate are also used by some soapers that use both Koh and Naoh. 
I googled and found Potassium Carbonate for sale for soaps but it does not explain why or how they should be used. _

Potassium carbonate is the potassium version of washing soda (sodium carbonate). It is an alkali and it will saponify easily with fatty acids (stearic acid, for example) to form soap. If not used in saponification, it can increase the firmness and _apparent_ dryness of the soap. It can help a soap function somewhat better when used in hard water. 

I would add a carbonate to a hot processed soap, and I would stir it into the soap at the end of the cook. I would not add it at the beginning of saponification to ensure the hydroxide lye (NaOH and/or KOH) is doing the full saponification.


----------



## LBussy

A few points addressing the core issues as I see them.

*Soap Hardness:*  Who cares?   I can make pucks from 100% KOH soap, I cannot think of any other reason to want shave soap to be hard.   We want shaving soap to perform on the face, it does not need to last in the shower.  I prefer soap made from 100% KOH so I skip the drama of using NaOH and KOH together.   _To me_ 100% KOH creates a soap with more of the shaving performance properties I want.  Certainly that's subjective, but what's not is there is more complexity to using two lyes.  If it's not needed, why bother?  My favorite commercial soaps are KOH only.

Some soapers I respect very much use two lyes and they have their reasons.  I just don't understand them.  

*Salts and carbonates and Bears, oh my!*  As I said above I don't believe a shaving soap needs to be as hard as a bath soap.  It needs to be able to be packaged and that's it.  A large number of learned shavers use soaps that come in tubs; these are called "croaps".   This is a portmanteau of"cream" and "soap" because it has properties of both.   It can often be easily molded, but it is loaded on the brush just like a soap is.  The hardness ranges from Dove bar to cream cheese.

Cella is the archetypical Italian croap.  It's packed in a tub typically, as are many/most other croaps.  Arko is a (I think) Turkish croap that comes in a stick form.  It has polarized wet shavers; I'm personally not a fan but for the price and performance it's hard to beat.  I'm just not a fan of the scent.   Some people call it citron, I call it urinal puck.   Anyway, if you are getting something from Amazon anyway, grab a stick of that someday to check out and compare.  It performs incredibly well.

Anyway, that's a long roundabout way to say your shaving soap does not need to be as hard as a bath soap, and you can have whatever form you like with a 100% KOH soap.  It is completely acceptable, and even desirable, to package shaving soap in a tub/tin.

I _do_ add something which does make the finished soap harder, I use Sodium Lactate.   I add this because it makes the soap easier to handle when cooking.  For some reason unknown to me it makes it smoother and easier to stir while hot, and this makes it easier to mold.  When cooled it seems to be quite a bit harder, but not so hard that it does not load the brush properly.  It also looks creamier when done and loaded in the tin.  I have a picture of "plain" soap, and soap to which I have added lactate and Titanium Dioxide here:  

http://www.silverfoxcrafts.com/2015/12/basic-or-bedazzled/

If you are selling soap (or intend to), the difference will be interesting.

*Curing:*  A hot process shaving soap will exhibit most of it's finished properties right after cooling.  My own process does not rely on a cure to dry the soap to increase hardness in any way.  I did say "most properties" though.  As DeeAnna says there's that change in the molecular structure within the soap that still happens as it cures.  I'm sure there's a dissertation or at least a thesis in there for someone to figure it all out.  My own experience tells me that there are declining improvements after 2-4 weeks.  I try not to give shave soap away that's less than 2 weeks old.  

So there's my $0.02, worth what you paid for it.   Am I opinionated?  You betcha.  Any wet shaver who also makes his own soap will be opinionated.


----------



## Lathersuds

DeeAnna thank you for responding to my questions, I understand about not confusing the curing process to the firmness of the soap. 

Your explanation with the use of Potassium Carbonate clarifies it for me. 

I've actually been making shaving soaps for quite a bit and have tried different formulas except for the sodium chloride and potassium carbonate part. 
I appreciate your help. 

@Lee thanks for chiming in as well, I use sodium lactate as well and do agree koh makes for a better lather compared to naoh. I just prefer to use 30%naoh when other ingredients such as tallow and lighter oils are added in, it's just what works best for me but I'm glad it suits your needs using pure koh for your use, that's what I like about this hobby is you get to make the soap that suits you best.


----------



## beshaved

YAY!! I have finally reached the newest part of this thread!!
Wow.. It's been a long two weeks reading this.

I am new to the soap making and I made Shaving Soap for my first try.

I tried the original recipe from SongWind.

500g CO and SA
added 100 g Glycerin and 50g Castor Oil to the final part.

But since it is my first time making soap, I have a few questions:
1. Is it alright to add Castor Oil instead of Shea butter (just like everyone talked about)?
2. I was using a stove, so I didn't leave the soap cooking for hours. Is it alright? I do not have a slow cooker to use.
3. Using all KOH, the soap is too soft to mold. I just put it in a container. I do hope to make it a bit hard. Just wondering why some people able to mold (100% KOH) the soap. Do I need to cook it again? For how long, as I am using a stove?

The lather from my batch is creamy, thick, and slick. I love it. 

Thank you all that have been throwing ideas in this thread.

ps: The lather even holds itself for 2.5 hours. Only losing a tiny bit of volume. I initially wanted to photograph a 1 hour performance, but totally forgot to do it.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Cooking longer can reduce some of the water which could explain why yours is softer. 

If the soap doesn't zap then you're okay, regardless of how short the cook was. If you have ever touched a 9v battery to your tongue, that is what zap from soap feels like. To test, I always get some soapy water on a finger and touch that to my tongue first and if that is okay then I try the soap itself. The zap tells you that there is still unsaponified lye in your soap

Edit. As for changes to a recipe, I always ask "what is the soap missing?" There is no need to add something in to make the soap slicker if it is slick enough, likewise no need to increase lather stability if it lasts more than 2 hours untouched.


----------



## LBussy

beshaved said:


> 1. Is it alright to add Castor Oil instead of Shea butter (just like everyone talked about)?


Since this represents the superfat, I'm not a fan of that idea - or would not be for me personally.  This is the part that's left on your skin for conditioning.  Castor is ever so slightly more comedogenic, but beyond that I think it feels slimy.  Shea leaves a silky feel that I prefer.   Still, it's not a whole bunch so it's not a huge deal.



beshaved said:


> 2. I was using a stove, so I didn't leave the soap cooking for hours. Is it alright? I do not have a slow cooker to use.
> 3. Using all KOH, the soap is too soft to mold. I just put it in a container. I do hope to make it a bit hard. Just wondering why some people able to mold (100% KOH) the soap. Do I need to cook it again? For how long, as I am using a stove?


As Craig said, longer cook = less water = harder soap.  I don't worry about the soap being hard though because this is not a bath bar.  I prefer them slightly soft like the Italian croaps.  For this reason, and because I believe it makes a superior shave soap, I also use 100% KOH.

Congratulations on reaching the end of the thread, and your first batch!


----------



## beshaved

This is how I build the lather using the soap that I made. 

https://youtu.be/uTczRr7nIQY

It was so "thirsty" that I had to add water frequently!


----------



## LBussy

KOH based soaps are quite a bit more thirsty than NaOH.  I believe that's part of why if provides a (subjective) better shave experience.  The more water you can hold on your skin, the better it will be.  That's why glycerin makes such a positive impact.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I generally soak my brushes before use, getting rid of a little or a lot depending on the brush itself. Lack of water is not a problem doing it that way with these KOH-only soaps


----------



## beshaved

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I generally soak my brushes before use, getting rid of a little or a lot depending on the brush itself. Lack of water is not a problem doing it that way with these KOH-only soaps



I usually soak my brush, too. But, on that video, I was so nervous, I forgot about it. 

Then again, the lather was great. This is the best lather so far.


----------



## iorgu

Is it ok to formulate the lanolin as a superfat knowing that it iontains a very small amount of saponifiables? The Silver Fox recipe calls for the 5% superfat to be made up of shea and lanolin. Could i superfat with 5% shea butter and still add the lanolin? I think it's something i am missing here...


----------



## LBussy

I run it all through the calculator so that it balances.  I reserve a portion of the shea and lanolin till the end so that I know it is my super fat.  

Basically always use the calculator (or do it by hand I guess) and you'll be fine.


----------



## iorgu

I made the recipe and the soap leave a stick sensation on my skin (i didn't lather it yet, but i wash my hands with it), like lanolin does, or other kind of wax. I am pretty sure i measured the lanolin and the shea exactly, with my precision scale. What could be the issue?
LE: i did a palm lather for testing purpose and it did made a great looking lather, but after i wash it off the skin has a lot of grip when i rub my hands together.


----------



## LBussy

iorgu said:


> I made the recipe and the soap leave a stick sensation on my skin (i didn't lather it yet, but i wash my hands with it), like lanolin does, or other kind of wax. I am pretty sure i measured the lanolin and the shea exactly, with my precision scale. What could be the issue?
> LE: i did a palm lather for testing purpose and it did made a great looking lather, but after i wash it off the skin has a lot of grip when i rub my hands together.


If you did the same recipe, 100% KOH, I would say you might want to let the soap cure a bit.  Even though it's zap-free right after the cook it does benefit from at least a week of curing.  I've only noted "stickiness" when cleaning my pots after the cook.

The only other thing I can think of is that KOH soaps are VERY thirsty compared to one with NaOH.  Using it like a bar would end up using much more soap than I use to shave with.  That could lead to that sensation.  

I give my brush 20 light-ish turns on the soap and then go to the bowl.  It does not look like a lot of soap but I make sure there's at least a tablespoon of water in the bowl when I start to work up the lather.  After a minute I get a nice yogurty lather that is perfect to shave with.


----------



## iorgu

I used 100% KOH. As i said, even after the palm lather the skins was sticky, don't know how to explain it. I will cure it and see how it will be. Maybe i will repet another batch to be sure. 
What do you think is the mininum concentration of lanolin neede for a good shave? I might replace some of it with some kokum or mango butter... Is this a good idea or doesn't worth the hassle?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

The important thing for slickness is the glycerine. Lanolin is for post shave loveliness.


----------



## iorgu

It has 11% glycerine.


----------



## LBussy

Lather in a bowl and then use the lather on your skin - see if that makes a difference.  I've never palm lathered so I can't really say whether it's odd or not.


----------



## DeeAnna

I have made the original recipe and know what you mean. It's good shave soap ... but I agree it does leave the skin feeling a little bit "tight". I think men are more sensitive to this than most of us ladies, but I have tried to listen to the "shaver dudes" when they talk about the finer points of wet shaving.

Lee Bussey and The Efficacious Gentleman have suggested using shea and lanolin as the "superfat". That means shea and lanolin are added after the soap is fully cooked so there is no more "zap". I have also tried this and really like how my skin feels after shaving with their modified recipe -- not tight or dry at all.

You could try kneading a little bit of shea or lanolin or both into some of your shave soap and see what you think. The soap is soft and pliable enough that it is reasonable to do this. Based on total oils used to make the soap, try adding about 2.5% shea and 2.5% lanolin.

This type of shave soap works best when made with a hot-process method -- it really does not work with a cold-process method. The stearic acid is the trouble maker.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

What recipe did you use? Include lye(s) and water amounts. 

I use hp so I can add some nicer things after saponification has finished. It's also easier with so much sa!


----------



## DeeAnna

"...If I add, let's say, shea butter not as superfat after the cook, but as one of the oils... does that also give a different post-shave feel? There is a 5% lye discount so some CO and some shea should stay unsaponified......"

It certainly could give a different feel. I don't have personal experience with the difference, however. Perhaps someone else will share their point of view.

"...By doing it CP you can not add shea or whatever as a superfat. If you do so while CP-ing, the shea (as an added superfat) could get saponified during the cure...."

Exactly correct. You can be more confident that certain fats will remain unsaponified if you add those fats after saponification is done. 

"...But what if it's already zap proof after adding the SA without cooking? Then you could add the shea/lanolin as a superfat without the danger of getting saponified...."

Again, correct. 

To clarify -- the soap doesn't need to be cooked for hours to qualify as "hot process" soap. I don't cook my shave soap much -- maybe 15 minutes after adding the stearic acid. I check for zap at that point. If it is zap free (and it usually is), I add the superfat, fragrance, etc. and pack the soap into a mold or hand form the soap into a long cylinder.

The reason why this kind of shave soap is best made with a hot process method is less about hours of cooking and more about the behavior of the stearic acid. The SA saponifies so fast that it is pretty much done saponifying in a few minutes. This means the soap gets thick very fast, so it is nearly impossible to pour into the mold. 

Cold process method works best when the saponification is slow, so the soap batter is still fluid and pourable when you put the soap into the mold.


----------



## LBussy

Yes you can use 100% KOH.


----------



## Ivanstein

My best post shave feel soap is 52% SA, 38% CO, 5% each lanolin and Shea butter. Hot process. Cooked all oils and Shea butter together and added lanolin after the mess cooled a bit. It's a bit more difficult to lather than the SA/CO only soap, but it is a far superior shave soap and leaves the skin very nice.


----------



## Ivanstein

Scheermonnik said:


> I suppose just a tiny, tiny bit more difficult


It's noticeable, but well worth the extra 10 seconds of effort.[emoji6]


----------



## IrishLass

I love your packaging! 


IrishLass


----------



## Ivanstein

Indeed! Where did you find the containers?


----------



## iorgu

What recipe are you using? The soap needs to be liquid enough to be poured like that.


----------



## iorgu

I do HP. It hardens much more until is done. The advantage is that i don't need to stir it with a mixer. 
I think Stirling make their soaps CP, maybe they have a process similar to yours? Their soaps are great shavers.


----------



## iorgu

It looks like stearic acid flakes to me.


----------



## IrishLass

iorgu said:


> It looks like stearic acid flakes to me.


 
To me, as well. The remedy is to soap hotter. If you keep the soaping temps above 156F/69C when adding and mixing your melted SA into your batter, you should be fine.

The stearic acid spots aren't harmful or anything like that- just unsightly.


IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna

The small lumps of stearic acid are probably not saponified, so this SA has now become part of your superfat. The fats you want as your superfat are more likely to be partly saponified instead. 

I also don't think I'd care for shaving over little bumps of waxy stuff on my skin. ???


----------



## Ivanstein

My question is this: if the steric acid was not reacted because it was not melted and mixed well, what chance is there of free lye still in the soap?


----------



## kchaystack

Ivanstein said:


> My question is this: if the steric acid was not reacted because it was not melted and mixed well, what chance is there of free lye still in the soap?



Not if it does not zap.  As Deeanna said, it probably took some of your superfat.


----------



## iorgu

Another proof that HP is better for shaving soap. It doesn't take much to do it, just a big pot with water and a smaller one with oils in it.


----------



## iorgu

The problem was that the stearic turned into solid when you add it to the mix, so the other oils that weren't in solid state saponified before the stearic had a chance. In HP the stearic is always in liquid state and i think that saponifies first.


----------



## DeeAnna

"...because you add the SA as a second stage so your other oils can react first with the lye, is it to suspect that there is a bigger chance SA will become your superfat?..."

We're dealing in probabilities here so nothing is 100% certain, but in my opinion the probability is low. 

A fat reacts with an alkali in two basic stages -- break off a fatty acid off the glycerin backbone and then react with the fatty acid to make a soap molecule. The hard part is breaking the fat apart; the really easy part is reacting with the fatty acid. 

So an alkali will strongly prefer to react with an easy-going stearic acid molecule (assuming the SA is fully melted) in preference to the hassle of reacting with a fat molecule.


----------



## kmarvel

songwind said:


> This weekend I made my first shaving soap. It was a hot process soap, and used a recipe posted by a fellow forum poster at one of the wet shaving forums.
> 
> I did a small batch (8 oz). 52% stearic acid, 48% coconut oil, saponified with KOH. I added 1.5 tablespoons of glycerin after it was done cooking, along with 1/4 oz of essential oils: 2/3 lemon & bergamot, 1/3 rosemary.
> 
> The soap making went fine, with no surprises aside from the soap never becoming truly translucent like my olive oil soap did. It passed the zap test, though.
> 
> I used it to shave tonight, and it was lovely. Nice and slick, and there was no skin reaction to the EOs. My face feels very nice afterward.
> 
> The scent turned out too lemony, and the rosemary was lost underneath. Next time, more basenotes and less lemon.
> 
> Just after pouring:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 24 hours to set:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whipped up a great lather:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was very stable. This is after sitting 15 minutes while I showered and brushed my teeth:




Does this make a hard shaving bar or puck?


----------



## kmarvel

songwind said:


> This one came from another soaper trying to reverse engineer Martin de Candre over on the Badger and Blade forum
> 
> 
> 
> I added it right at the beginning. I melted it along with the coconut oil.
> 
> 
> 
> This one had a 5% superfat.




Songwind,

there are a billion threads on the badger and blade site. Do you happen to have the exact link to the thread for this recipe??  Thank you.


----------



## shunt2011

kmarvel said:


> Does this make a hard shaving bar or puck?


 
It makes a pliable soap that you can cut into a puck.  I pour it into jars but also make puck refills. But they are fairly soft.  Not like a hard bar of soap.


----------



## kmarvel

DeeAnna said:


> Hi, Mark -- You are right: DH = dear husband. DS = dear son.
> 
> Yes, I do very much like the soap. DH has continued to use it to shave with as well -- he has a half dozen other bars of soap to lather up with, but he is consistently grabbing the shaving soap when he reaches for his razor. (I am monitoring his shaving activities with a stealthy hawk's eye -- I figure if I pry, he will get self conscious and use the shaving soap just to please me, but if I just watch, I can gather the unbiased info I want.)
> 
> I have given samples to several friends, but I have yet to get a sample to my stepson (aka DS) who lives a few hours away. I have one bar earmarked just for him. Hubby eagerly begged a couple of samples to give to the gals who work in his office. After all that sharing with others, I have almost nothing left of my first batch.
> 
> Such a sad state of affairs -- I get to make more soap!
> 
> I have been reading about shaving soaps off an on. It seems as if there are several broad groups, only a few of which that I've read about. The first, obviously, are the coconut oil based soaps like the MdC (probably the least common type?) You and FFC talked about soap that have added lanolin such as Mitchells Wool Fat (kind of an old-school recipe?). Another type I'm picking up on are the soaps that have tallow as the main ingredient (I'm thinking of Williams Mug Soap). Any other types that you know of?
> 
> I can see each type has its ardent fans and detractors -- the reports and ensuing debates are amusing to read. I think it would be fun to develop two distinct types of shaving soaps. The MdC type is obviously one I am going to play with more. What would you say is another generally popular type that would be worth learning about and developing?



Does this produce a firm shaving soap bar or puck??  Or is it too soft to sell at Craft Shows???


----------



## LBussy

kmarvel said:


> Does this produce a firm shaving soap bar or puck??  Or is it too soft to sell at Craft Shows???



Shari answered you.  It makes a somewhat pliable soap that can be formed into pucks, but is most generally sold in tins or tubs.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

There is plenty of information on the recipes used already posted, in this thread and many others. As you just want to get something spoon fed to you for you to go on to sell, I would hope the least you could do is actually read the posts


----------



## Ivanstein

kmarvel said:


> Does this produce a firm shaving soap bar or puck??  Or is it too soft to sell at Craft Shows???


I would strongly recommend against copying a recipe and selling it at craft shows. Soapmaking Forum has a great article that explains the pitfalls which can occur. Having limited knowledge of your products and what they contain can open you up to severe legal repercussion, let alone getting sued because someone gets a rash or whatnot.

Just a suggestion.


----------



## shunt2011

I highly suggest you start by making it and then testing it. Then you will likely  want to tweak it to your liking.  Selling shouldn't even be a thought until well tested.


----------



## kmarvel

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> There is plenty of information on the recipes used already posted, in this thread and many others. As you just want to get something spoon fed to you for you to go on to sell, I would hope the least you could do is actually read the posts



Thank you for your response.  Actually I have been reading alot on the threads here.


----------



## kmarvel

shunt2011 said:


> I highly suggest you start by making it and then testing it. Then you will likely want to tweak it to your liking. Selling shouldn't even be a thought until well tested.


 
Tweaking and testing as we speak. 



songwind said:


> This weekend I made my first shaving soap. It was a hot process soap, and used a recipe posted by a fellow forum poster at one of the wet shaving forums.
> 
> I did a small batch (8 oz). 52% stearic acid, 48% coconut oil, saponified with KOH. I added 1.5 tablespoons of glycerin after it was done cooking, along with 1/4 oz of essential oils: 2/3 lemon & bergamot, 1/3 rosemary.
> 
> The soap making went fine, with no surprises aside from the soap never becoming truly translucent like my olive oil soap did. It passed the zap test, though.
> 
> I used it to shave tonight, and it was lovely. Nice and slick, and there was no skin reaction to the EOs. My face feels very nice afterward.
> 
> The scent turned out too lemony, and the rosemary was lost underneath. Next time, more basenotes and less lemon.
> 
> Just after pouring:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 24 hours to set:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whipped up a great lather:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was very stable. This is after sitting 15 minutes while I showered and brushed my teeth:


 
Beautiful soap!!!! thank you for the pictures. Would this recipe harden up in a puck? Do you happen to have the link to the gentleman that was on the website you found the reverse soap recipe thread? Thank you.

Hi. Read your post and I am a little low on CCO also. What was your ratio for the CCO and your SA?? Would love to test a batch this week. Thank you. 



brandi said:


> Can you share where you found the recipe? Im looking for one for my husband. Thanks!
> 
> When do you add the stearic acid? I really want to make this.


 
Brandi, did you find the recipe??


----------



## toxikon

Can I dig up this thread? Is that okay!? I hope it's okay... :silent:

Have any of you lovely recipe contributors tried egg yolk in this awesome recipe?

I've read through and see a lot of additives have been tried and tested, but no mention of yolk. As far as I know, 1 yolk PPO can create a bit more of a silky lather, which seems like it might lend itself well to a shaving soap.

So as long as it's tempered in slowly, could it work in the 100% KOH recipe here?


----------



## LBussy

Dragging up old threads is always acceptable, unless of course you ask a question that's already answered in it 100 times. 

This time, no, never heard that question before!

I have never tried egg yolk, not sure why I would want to really.  It would take some pretty good tempering (with the CO I would imagine) but sure, why not.  Try it and let us know!  You should also try it without so you know what you are changing.  That's just MHO though,


----------



## toxikon

LBussy said:


> Dragging up old threads is always acceptable, unless of course you ask a question that's already answered in it 100 times.
> 
> This time, no, never heard that question before!
> 
> I have never tried egg yolk, not sure why I would want to really.  It would take some pretty good tempering (with the CO I would imagine) but sure, why not.  Try it and let us know!  You should also try it without so you know what you are changing.  That's just MHO though,



Thank you! I guess one of the nice things about this recipe is you can make a bunch of small batches and almost instantly compare them all.

I will definitely report back - and I agree, keeping it simple to start is a good idea. I just picked up my stearic acid and KOH so I'll be doing some playing this weekend!


----------



## sudsy_kiwi

I've made several batches of this shaving soap over the months, and have made a few tweaks of the recipe, and I have to add my voice to the chorus of those who have loved it.  I've tried several commercial shave soaps, and this beats them all IMO.  The lather is simply astounding.

Now to my question.  I know that lye and aluminium (or aluminum for our American friends  ) do not play well together.  But is it ok to store this soap in an aluminium container?  Saponification of finished by the end of the process, so am I right in thinking it should be safe?  Is there another consideration I'm not thinking of?  

I looked around and all the commercially available soaps seem to come in either plastic, wood or paper.  But I've got some cool wee aluminium pots that would be the ideal size and shape for this.


----------



## LBussy

sudsy_kiwi said:


> Now to my question.  I know that lye and aluminium (or aluminum for our American friends  ) do not play well together.  But is it ok to store this soap in an aluminium container?  Saponification of finished by the end of the process, so am I right in thinking it should be safe?  Is there another consideration I'm not thinking of?



The pH of the finished soap is still quite high.  I would expect it to corrode the aluminum.

I use tinned steel containers for my soap with good results:





http://www.specialtybottle.com/metal-tin-containers/deep-flat-slipcover/8oz-tnf8


----------



## cgsample

Lee,

Just wanted to thank you.  Your recipe was my first try at soap making about two years ago.  I used it as my base and tweaked and tweaked (also went completely off the reservation a couple times).  I ended up the with a little more tallow than coconut, and also snuck in a little castor.


----------



## LBussy

cgsample said:


> Lee,
> 
> Just wanted to thank you.  Your recipe was my first try at soap making about two years ago.  I used it as my base and tweaked and tweaked (also went completely off the reservation a couple times).  I ended up the with a little more tallow than coconut, and also snuck in a little castor.


I'm happy to have played a small part!  

Tallow = goodness so it does not surprise me that you experimented with and enjoyed its contributions.   It's all a balancing act and some folks like some qualities over others.


----------



## PuddinAndPeanuts

I've only read through post two hundred-something, but yesterday was inspired enough to make actual soap again for the first time in I think a couple years.  I made Songwind's recipe using Deanna's method of adding the stearic acid after the coconut oil had thickened.  No surprises, thank goodness.  After I added the glycerin and scented with Cool Water FO, I removed about a third of the batch and added a slightly mounded half teaspoon of kaolin clay to the rest. Then I vaguely remembered that you're maybe supposed to add clay at the beginning, with the water?  (Is that correct??)  Both of them have not-so-great lather compared to everything I'm used to- but- I shaved my bikini region and I don't look like a plucked chicken like I always do after shaving, which is pretty **** impressive.  I found that the one with the clay is fluffier, creamier, lathers better, a little slicker- overall, just utterly superior to the one without clay.  You'd never, ever dream they were otherwise identical.


----------



## PuddinAndPeanuts

Forgot to add picture: the brush on the right has songwind's original recipe with a touch over 1/2 tsp of kaolin clay.  Brush on the left is the recipe unaltered.
 .


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

As a shaver, I do not like the look of the right one (nor the "brushes!) - I admit, I know that there is clay in there so some might think I am biased, but if I just had those two images and would be asked, I would say the same.  Fluffy is not always a good thing, especially with shaving.  Fluffy = air = not actually soap.


----------



## shunt2011

The Lather should be thick and somewhat dense.  Too fluffy.  I love my shave soap and use it daily on my legs. My husband uses it daily as well.


----------



## PuddinAndPeanuts

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> As a shaver, I do not like the look of the right one (nor the "brushes!) - I admit, I know that there is clay in there so some might think I am biased, but if I just had those two images and would be asked, I would say the same.  Fluffy is not always a good thing, especially with shaving.  Fluffy = air = not actually soap.







shunt2011 said:


> The Lather should be thick and somewhat dense.  Too fluffy.  I love my shave soap and use it daily on my legs. My husband uses it daily as well.




Thanks guys-  appreciate the feedback!  The lather on the one on the right felt plenty dense, but upon more reflection, I think I was mistaken when I said it had better glide.  I think it's maybe not as slick as the other one.  I'm still playing.  I've done 2 more versions and have a few more trials already in mind.


----------



## Arimara

shunt2011 said:


> The Lather should be thick and somewhat dense.  Too fluffy.  I love my shave soap and use it daily on my legs. My husband uses it daily as well.



This is going to sound crazy but how can you shave your legs daily? It takes me a week and a half to start getting some long enough stubble to shave and a little bit longer still before I actually do it. Does your shaving soap offer that much protection?


----------



## shunt2011

Arimara said:


> This is going to sound crazy but how can you shave your legs daily? It takes me a week and a half to start getting some long enough stubble to shave and a little bit longer still before I actually do it. Does your shaving soap offer that much protection?




Ha ha. I swim 2 times a week. The hair on my legs grows like weeds (tmi) It's usually a quick shave is all.


----------



## IrishLass

shunt2011 said:


> Ha ha. I swim 2 times a week. The hair on my legs grows like weeds (tmi) It's usually a quick shave is all.


 
LOL- Shari, I'm just going to follow you around today to see what your Autocorrect comes up with (this is the second post of yours today where your Autocorrect has caused me bouts of giggling). Unless swimming twice a week somehow causes hair on legs to grow like weeds, I'm going to assume you meant to say "I shave 2 times a week". 

*Edited to add*- lol- looks like we were just posting at the same time. 


IrishLass


----------



## Arimara

shunt2011 said:


> Ha ha. I swim 2 times a week. The hair on my legs grows like weeds (tmi) It's usually a quick shave is all.



Sorry and thanks. Swimming makes sense.


----------



## shunt2011

Arimara said:


> Sorry and thanks. Swimming makes sense.




No reason to say sorry. It's all good.  When I'm not swimming (water aerobics) it's a totally different story. Won't go there.


----------



## DanielCoffey

sudsy_kiwi said:


> Now to my question.  I know that lye and aluminium (or aluminum for our American friends  ) do not play well together.  But is it ok to store this soap in an aluminium container?  Saponification of finished by the end of the process, so am I right in thinking it should be safe?  Is there another consideration I'm not thinking of?



I appreciate this was a question asked last week but I would like to add a personal experience of trying to use shaving soaps in an aluminium container.

Those of us in the UK may remember a small company called Cosmetics To Go which was trading about fifteen years ago before Lush started. One of the products they sold at that time was a scented hard shaving soap puck moulded into an aluminium bowl and lid. Replacement pucks were available in cellophane.

The first puck was fine until it got about half-way through then it detached from the bowl. I noticed a fair amount of gritty grey sludge coating the outside of the puck which smelled metallic. I scraped it off and used the remains of the puck till it was about three-quarters gone then I ditched it.

I cleaned out the bowl and noticed that the metal had gone dull and slightly rough so I just scrubbed it clean with a small scourer and started the second new puck.

Very quickly the new puck detached because water easily got down the sides. The gritty grey stuff was back and formed a crust around the sides and base of the puck so it no longer bonded into the bowl. I fairly quickly chucked it out and checked the bowl which was heavily pitted.

Looking back, I can safely say it was the aluminium reacting with the hard soap and forming metallic salts around the puck.

I hope this helps you decide not to use aluminium with your soap, sudsy_wiki.


----------



## DanielCoffey

I have a question about the amounts of EO to use in a shaving soap like this. Assuming 1lb (454g) of oil (SA/CO/Tallow), what weight of EOs would you advise?

I am referring to EOs such as DeeAnna's lavender/rosemary/mint blend or possibly Bog Myrtle rather than more pungent oils.


----------



## earlene

toxikon said:


> Can I dig up this thread? Is that okay!? I hope it's okay... :silent:
> 
> Have any of you lovely recipe contributors tried egg yolk in this awesome recipe?
> 
> I've read through and see a lot of additives have been tried and tested, but no mention of yolk. As far as I know, 1 yolk PPO can create a bit more of a silky lather, which seems like it might lend itself well to a shaving soap.
> 
> So as long as it's tempered in slowly, could it work in the 100% KOH recipe here?



*Toxikon*, my favorite handwashing soap contains egg yolks.  My SIL also says it is her favorite of my soap recipes for handwashing as well.  It does have a smooth and silky feeling lather.  There is something about it that just feels luxurious on my hands, so I can imagine it would have a similar feel to the skin that requires shaving.

I'd love to know how it turns out in a shaving soap.


----------



## dudeitsashley

Has anyone added activated charcoal to their soap? I was just browsing on West Coast shaving and saw that there was an activated charcoal soap but, it's sold out. I am wondering if the charcoal dulls the blade at all.


----------



## IrishLass

DanielCoffey said:


> I have a question about the amounts of EO to use in a shaving soap like this. Assuming 1lb (454g) of oil (SA/CO/Tallow), what weight of EOs would you advise?
> 
> I am referring to EOs such as DeeAnna's lavender/rosemary/mint blend or possibly Bog Myrtle rather than more pungent oils.


 
The general rule of thumb for EOs is 3% of the weight of the oils/fats in your recipe, provided that they are not the type that are known sensitizers, such as cinnamon or clove, for example.


IrishLass


----------



## DeeAnna

I typically use 3% of the lavender/rosemary/mint blend. I used a clove/orange blend with a lighter hand for safety's sake.


----------



## toxikon

earlene said:


> *Toxikon*, my favorite handwashing soap contains egg yolks.  My SIL also says it is her favorite of my soap recipes for handwashing as well.  It does have a smooth and silky feeling lather.  There is something about it that just feels luxurious on my hands, so I can imagine it would have a similar feel to the skin that requires shaving.
> 
> I'd love to know how it turns out in a shaving soap.



I did end up using a tempered egg yolk in my shaving soap batch! I have no comparison, but the lather is lovely. Once I get a proper shave brush (I'm just using a makeup brush right now lol) I will post a photo of the soap and the lather!


----------



## DeeAnna

Tisserand in Essential Oil Safety reports that bog myrtle (myrica gale) has no known hazards and no particular contraindications about its use. So it appears to be reasonably safe to use as an essential oil goes.


----------



## DanielCoffey

Thanks for looking that up.

I know the local CP soap shop in Scotland uses it in their hand-soaps when they can get it. Part of their business model is to source oils locally so at the moment it is off the menu so to speak, but we can easily get it online from elsewhere.


----------



## Dahila

dudeitsashley said:


> Has anyone added activated charcoal to their soap? I was just browsing on West Coast shaving and saw that there was an activated charcoal soap but, it's sold out. I am wondering if the charcoal dulls the blade at all.


 Think what activated charcoal brings to soap, and you will get your answer.  I do not think it will be suitable for shaving bar


----------



## shunt2011

dudeitsashley said:


> Has anyone added activated charcoal to their soap? I was just browsing on West Coast shaving and saw that there was an activated charcoal soap but, it's sold out. I am wondering if the charcoal dulls the blade at all.


 

I don't think I'd add charcoal to my shave soap either.  It can be a bit gritty and it just doesn't need it.  (my opinion only).


----------



## earlene

AC is supposed to be insoluble in water and organic solvents, but you could heat the water & partially dissolve it and then filter out the precipitate, although I am not sure what purpose that would serve in shaving soap.


----------



## DeeAnna

Activated carbon is insoluble -- that means it won't dissolve. If you put AC in water, hot or cold, you'll probably see the water will become darker, but that's just because the finest particles won't settle and will remain suspended in the water. Not the same thing as solubility.


----------



## earlene

DeeAnna said:


> Activated carbon is insoluble -- that means it won't dissolve. If you put AC in water, hot or cold, you'll probably see the water will become darker, but that's just because the finest particles won't settle and will remain suspended in the water. Not the same thing as solubility.



Good to have that verified since we do use it for poison absorption.  I was confused by something I read about an experiment someone tried using AC that they thought had dissolved.  The explanation was that it had formed a colloidal that precipitated out with filter paper. (I may not be explaining this as well as could be.) But apparently the size of the filter paper made a difference and when it was a fine enough filter, the solution came out totally clear, which I expect means that no AC was actually dissolved and that the person had simply not interpreted the results correctly in their earlier experiment.


----------



## DanielCoffey

I want to offer a huge thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread over the years. I have ploughed through the posts, scribbled notes, bought a crockpot and made a batch today.

So far as I can tell just from staring at it in its little pots as it cools, it worked perfectly. Zapless of course, firming up as it gets cooler and deliciously scented (DeeAnna's recommended Lavender/Rosemary/Wild Mint blend).

I settled on 45% Stearic Acid, 25% Coconut Oil, 20% Tallow, 5% Lanolin, 5% Shea Butter, 5% super-fatted, 11% Glycerin and just KOH of course. The only additive was 0.5% tetrasodium EDTA.

Based on just 400g of oils, the total batch weight was 722g and it yielded 670g of product after water loss in the crock pot. It is certainly firm once cooled and I have no idea yet how it will lather. I have promised to set it aside for a week to settle.

I will of course post pictures and an opinion of its first shave.


----------



## DeeAnna

A true solution cannot be separated by simple filtration, so right there is a clue that the experimenter was not dealing with activated carbon as a solution. Certain types of solid materials such as AC can become colloidal under the right circumstances, however. 

A colloid is not a solution, like sugar dissolved in water is a solution. You can think of it instead as a type of emulsion, where particles or droplets of one material are suspended in another. A colloid can be composed of liquids, gases, or even solids. A colloid can form due to small particle size and/or weak chemical or electrical charges on the material(s) involved. It can be a real challenge to separate a colloid from the liquid in which the colloid is suspended, which I think is probably what the experimenter was struggling with.

I used to work in an industrial wastewater treatment plant where we routinely flocculated colloidal solids (forced them to clump into larger chunks) so they would settle out of our waste water to make it cleaner. After the initial stages of cleaning, we passed the wastewater through an activated carbon bed to remove even more chemicals. So I have some familiarity with this kind of thing. 



earlene said:


> Good to have that verified since we do use it for poison absorption.  I was confused by something I read about an experiment someone tried using AC that they thought had dissolved.  The explanation was that it had formed a colloidal that precipitated out with filter paper. (I may not be explaining this as well as could be.) But apparently the size of the filter paper made a difference and when it was a fine enough filter, the solution came out totally clear, which I expect means that no AC was actually dissolved and that the person had simply not interpreted the results correctly in their earlier experiment.


----------



## dudeitsashley

Here is my batch! I used the original recipe but added 5% mango butter and lowered the coconut oil. This is my fiancé's favorite recipe so far.


----------



## TheDragonGirl

dudeitsashley said:


> View attachment 24291
> Here is my batch! I used the original recipe but added 5% mango butter and lowered the coconut oil. This is my fiancé's favorite recipe so far.



That looks fantastic


----------



## MiniBee

Thank you to all of you for the great information in this thread.  I have read thru the whole thing.    I did scan through again for an answer to my question and I can not find one.  I have made my first batch of the shaving soap with a few adjustments and put the soap in plastic jars.  My question is should I leave the lid off for a while for extra curing or would it better to cap them?


----------



## DanielCoffey

I don't think it really matters. Some folks roll the soap in parchment and cut it into pucks, slice and air-dry. Others put it onto tubs and leave the top on.

Providing the soap passes the zap test (and if you measured everything accurately and cooked for more than 30 mins, it should), it seems a short rest for up to a week means this HP soap is ready to use. Some people stated it was a little drying on the face for the first few days but that all measurable improvements happened within the first week.

I too have just made a batch and I put it in containers with lids. I left it a week and have just had the first two shaves with it. I will be doing a write up in the next day or so.


----------



## WeaversPort

Arimara said:


> This is going to sound crazy but how can you shave your legs daily? It takes me a week and a half to start getting some long enough stubble to shave and a little bit longer still before I actually do it. Does your shaving soap offer that much protection?



I envy you. I'm from the sasquatch part of the gene pool.. The only thing saving me is my hair is rather light in color. 

I'm almost not looking forward to being able to shave again.. It has been kind of nice going full yeti the past year!


----------



## IrishLass

MiniBee said:


> Thank you to all of you for the great information in this thread. I have read thru the whole thing.  I did scan through again for an answer to my question and I can not find one. I have made my first batch of the shaving soap with a few adjustments and put the soap in plastic jars. My question is should I leave the lid off for a while for extra curing or would it better to cap them?


 
Speaking only for myself- I never, ever cover fresh soap, including my shave croap. Where my shave croap is concerned, I let it cure just like my regular CP or HP, because the excess water need to go somewhere.
Better it go to the air than to get trapped by the lid of my container where it will form droplets of moisture.

IrishLass


----------



## MiniBee

DanielCoffey said:


> I don't think it really matters. Some folks roll the soap in parchment and cut it into pucks, slice and air-dry. Others put it onto tubs and leave the top on.
> 
> Providing the soap passes the zap test (and if you measured everything accurately and cooked for more than 30 mins, it should), it seems a short rest for up to a week means this HP soap is ready to use. Some people stated it was a little drying on the face for the first few days but that all measurable improvements happened within the first week.
> 
> I too have just made a batch and I put it in containers with lids. I left it a week and have just had the first two shaves with it. I will be doing a write up in the next day or so.


Thank you Daniel.  Can't wait for your write up.


----------



## MiniBee

IrishLass said:


> Speaking only for myself- I never, ever cover fresh soap, including my shave croap. Where my shave croap is concerned, I let it cure just like my regular CP or HP, because the excess water need to go somewhere.
> Better it go to the air than to get trapped by the lid of my container where it will form droplets of moisture.
> 
> IrishLass



Thank you IrishLass.  This is the first HP batch I have done.  I have always been a CP soaper and I am so use to letting the soap cure for 4-6 weeks.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

I agree with IL and must disagree with Daniel - Don't cover it anything like tightly.  For the first few weeks I leave mine (square pots) with the lids twisted to make essentially an 8 pointed star, allowing the air to move.  

Like any soap which is not liquid, it will always get better with age.  These soaps are stunning from the beginning, but only get better and better with more time.


----------



## MiniBee

Thank you so much Craig.  That is exactly what I'm doing.  I can't wait to try it out.


----------



## DanielCoffey

Well as promised, here is a picture and review of my first shaving soap batch. It was a resounding success and has resulted in the exile of several tubs of Proraso to the local charity shop.

I based the proportions in the recipe to match the guide on Lee's Silver Fox 1.0 blog. Many thanks, Lee, for taking so much time to post pictures and write up the process so thoroughly.

I bought myself a small 2L crockpot and used the excuse of soap making to treat myself to some new scales... a 6000x1g set and a 500x0.1g one for weighing the small quantities of things like KOH and butters. Apart from that, all I needed was to rummage in the kitchen for unused spatulas, steel spoons and similar.

Due to water loss in the long time in the crockpot the finished "taters" lump was opaque white. Folks were right in that it is pretty difficult to transfer to its new home without getting it all over the sides of the tubs. As it aged over the first week it went from a slightly creamy white to a pure white.

Thanks are due to DeeAnna for her suggestion of Lavender, Rosemary and Wild Mint EOs. We really like the fresh and slightly herbal result.

Fats were 45% Stearic Acid, 25% Coconut Oil, 20% Tallow, 5% Lanolin,  5% Shea Butter and 5% super-fatted. Total fats in this batch were scaled to to 400g. I added 11% Glycerin. The lye was just 90% pure KOH at 33% strength of course.  The only additive was 0.5% tetrasodium EDTA.

Final yield was four tubs of about 165g. I used some clean round tubs with 300ml capacity which allows me to use them for brush loading. No labels since it is for personal use only.

I made myself promise to leave it for a full week and ceremonially cleaned my shaving brush (Kent BK8) ready for the switch-over. As expected it was very keen to lather and made a rich, dense and smooth lather that was very, very persistent. Folks who have showed it on the brushes have said it is stable for a long time and I certainly agree with that.

Cleaning up was easy and it rinsed out well. We are in a soft water area and it did leave the expected soap ring. Since my old Proraso also included EDTA (along with a few other things), I was anticipating a ring on our stainless steel basins. It was very simple to clean.

I always moisturise after a shave anyway but I did feel that this shaving soap resulted in a less harsh shave than the Proraso. I know the blade was new and I was being careful but after washing my skin felt less tight. A quick moisturise later and I was comfortable.

The end result certainly passed the wifely "kiss test", so a resounding success in my opinion!

Once again, thanks everyone for the comments throughout this thread. It was most useful. I promise to keep going with soaps. Once we have moved I definitely need some laundry soap and some CP soap for hand-washing. Since we are moving in a month or so I figured it would be better to wait till we were in the new place rather than trying to transport some part-cured bars.


----------



## IrishLass

Yay! Congratulations on your first success! :clap:


IrishLass


----------



## cgsample

After two weeks air drying, my last batch is still very sticky.  By now, I don't think it's a water problem, but an excess glycerin problem.  I added 12% PPO glycerin to this batch.

Is there a way to salvage it?


----------



## DeeAnna

It is a somewhat sticky soap if you made Songwind's original recipe or the variations later in this thread. It's just the nature of the beast.

The added glycerin compensates for the lack of "natural" glycerin that comes from using stearic acid. I've added 12% ppo as well and that much works fine, IMO.

Furthermore, you're less than halfway through the cure period, so I also counsel patience, grasshopper. Don't be in a hurry to do something to the soap to "fix" it. With time, the soap will cure into a waxy firm paste.


----------



## MiniBee

*Love it!!!*

After reading thru the entire thread I have made my first attempt of Songwind's  awesome shaving recipe.  I did a few alterations from recommendations I found in the thread.  75 KOH/25 NaOH, added some shea and castor oil to the original recipe. Melted the oils and added the lye first, got it to a pudding like trace and then added the stearic acid (thank you Deanna for that suggestion).  Reserved some of the shea for a super fat after the cook and I also added 15% glycerin and 1% sodium lactate at the very end.  Scented it with just a simple Lavender Essential. Got it in some 8 oz jar and let it sit for a week so far.  Let me just say WOW!!!!  I love it.  As Mark the Box Guy said " it lathers itself when I walk by it and wink."    Thank you to all!!!


----------



## panzerakc

Okay, it's late and I'm tired, but I'll try to make this as coherent as possible.  

I've made CP soap for about 23 years, and have recently decided, after numerous requests, to try to formulate a shaving soap.

Here's what I've formulated so far;

Stearic acid                  45%
Palm kernel oil.              5%
Coconut oil.                    5%
Sweet almond oil.            5%
Tallow.                           30%
Castor oil.                         5%
Kuikui nut oil.                    5%

And now, surprise, surprise, I have questions!

I will be using potassium hydroxide.  Is superfatting/lye discount something to be considered for shaving soap?

How does the recipe look to those of you not newbies to making shaving soap?  I understand glycerin is another potential ingredient.  How much of that is considered a good amount?  Or is any at all considered a good thing?

What is the purpose of the Stearic acid?

Does it matter what kind of liquid is used?  I make mostly goatsmilk soap, with an occasional beer or straight water (for the lovely EO blend that overheats really fast if I use anything BUT water!).Is goatsmilk a good thing to have in shaving soap?

Are there any other ingredients that might contribute to a lovely formula?

Any links to a good tutorial on HP soap making?  I did hie myself to a local thrift store and get a crock pot, so I'm at least that far along.

Is curing time about the same for HP as CP, four to six weeks minimum?

Fragrance levels?  What percentage is recommended for shaving soap?  I use about 6% for my "bath" soaps.  Should that be a lesser amount for shaving soap, particularly for facial shaving soap?

That's all I can think of for now.  Anybody have any suggestions, hints, tips, or advice, whether what to do or what NOT to do, please speak up.  

And my own thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.

Anita


----------



## LBussy

panzerakc said:


> I will be using potassium hydroxide.  Is superfatting/lye discount something to be considered for shaving soap?


Absolutely.  About 5% is what I use.  As a consumer of shaving soaps, and having made my own for several years, I find I prefer soap made from KOH.



panzerakc said:


> How does the recipe look to those of you not newbies to making shaving soap?


It strikes me as a little on the heavy side.  I use a little more CO to assist getting the lather whipped up.  25% is what I use.



panzerakc said:


> I understand glycerin is another potential ingredient.  How much of that is considered a good amount?  Or is any at all considered a good thing?


I use 11% of the oil weight in glycerin.  More would not be horrible.



panzerakc said:


> What is the purpose of the Stearic acid?


It provides a very dense, stable lather.



panzerakc said:


> Does it matter what kind of liquid is used?  I make mostly goatsmilk soap, with an occasional beer or straight water (for the lovely EO blend that overheats really fast if I use anything BUT water!).Is goatsmilk a good thing to have in shaving soap?


Yes, but not for why you would think.  I know a good number of men might not really want to smear goat's milk on their faces.  Beer might be okay.  Remember it's not only about what makes a nice soap, but what will sell.  Water works fine in my soap.



panzerakc said:


> Are there any other ingredients that might contribute to a lovely formula?


No, but there's no need for the castor oil ... it contributes properties that are at odds with what a man wants in a shave soap.  IMHO of course.



panzerakc said:


> Any links to a good tutorial on HP soap making?  I did hie myself to a local thrift store and get a crock pot, so I'm at least that far along.


Here's one I put together some time back:

http://www.silverfoxcrafts.com/shaving-soap/



panzerakc said:


> Is curing time about the same for HP as CP, four to six weeks minimum?


Maybe.  A longer cure is nice, but I have used soap that's a week old.  If I were selling I'd wait a month.  



panzerakc said:


> Fragrance levels?  What percentage is recommended for shaving soap?  I use about 6% for my "bath" soaps.  Should that be a lesser amount for shaving soap, particularly for facial shaving soap?


Depends on the FO of course.  Also, doing a HP you may lose more so you need to take that into consideration.  This part will take some testing, but I'd start on the low side.  One thing I dislike is my soap competing with my after shave or cologne.

Finally, a bit of advice you did not ask for:  Find a known good shaving soap recipe and make that first.  THEN, based on facts and real experience, diverge from that.  Don't apply CP B&B experience here because for the most part it does not apply.  What you think you like in soap may have nothing to do with what I as a man would want so also find someone who doesn't need to keep you happy and get some feedback.  A husband or SO _has_ to like what you do.  

Have a look at that tutorial then come back and ask more questions.  It's not the only way, but it does make a good soap and will serve as a starting point for your consideration regarding formulation and process.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I suggest that you actually read a thread before posting on it - a lot of those questions are answered in the previous posts!


----------



## DanielCoffey

Mind you, it did take me a few days to wade through the thousand or so posts when I tried to do that.

Lee's shaving soap above is a very good starting point and I did appreciate the pictures when I made mine a couple of months ago. I waited a week before using it and I did notice that in that time it changed colour from off-white to "whiter". It seemed to crystallise somewhat until it was all white.

DeeAnna suggests 3% for an EO in this soap and she likes Rosemary, Lavender and Wild Mint as a blend. It does add a nice fresh smell to the soap. Folks have mentioned the proportions in this thread somewhere. Search for Wild Mint and you should find it.

As for additives, I did add tetra-sodium EDTA at 0.5% of the overall weight to help suppress soap scum. It also works as a preventer of DOS.

I don't sell my soaps but my Dad immediately threw away his Prosaso soap in preference to mine which I would count as a success. It took me long enough to get him off the Supermarket spray-foam cans onto pucks of proper soap. He won't give up his disposable razor but at least he was using nicer soap. Now he is on Lee's Silver Fox recipe and loves it.


----------



## psfred

I have had very good luck with Lee Bussy's basic recipe.  You can modify it some to suit, but stay close to the ratio of stearic acid to other fats.

Do not use olive oil, it's not really a good thing in shaving soap, wrong kind of lather.

I also suggest you decide what you want as superfat and hold those fats out of the pot until saponification is done (you will be hot processing due to the free stearic acid content) as adding them late helps insure that those specific fats are left after most of the rest are consumed by the lye.  I use cocoa butter and shea butter, but lanolin is also nice.

What you are aiming for is a fatty acid profile of 50 to 60% stearic and palmitic acids, some myristic from the coconut oil, and around 15% oleic and linoleic aicds.  Lots of ways to get there, but that high palmitic/stearic acid content is what makes the lather.  

I don't particularly care for castor oil in my shaving soap, it seems to leave my face feeling sticky after shaving, but small amounts won't hurt anything.

My personal favorites are 50% SA, 20% coconut oil, 20% lard, and 5% each cocoa butter and shea butter, or 50% SA, 30% tallow, 10% coconut oil, and 5% each cocoa butter and shea butter.  Complicated recipes aren't necessary, the heart and soul of shaving soap is very high stearic/palmitic acid with enough oleic and myristic to make it easy to lather up.  

Use at least 60% KOH as lye (you can use 100%) and hot process.

As far a scent goes, I only want enough that I can't smell the tallow (although it's not really offensive), but that's me.  Do remember that the lather will normally be applied to the upper lip and stay there for several minutes -- what's fine for body soap may be a bit much right under the nose!


----------



## CTAnton

I LOVE my shave soap. My friends LOVE my shave soap.  I only have one small problem.
 THEY LAST FOREVER!
I made several batches, each with a different combination of ingredients ,some with stearic acid, some with tallow. I think I got less than a dozen pucks out of each recipe. 
That was back in March. I'm still on my first puck.I shave 2 or 3 times a week as do most of my friends and they're still on THEIR first puck. If,like me, you'd like to play around with different recipes, forget making small batches, make MICRO batches.


----------



## psfred

It takes very little soap to make good shaving lather when the soap is right, indeed.  I've used my second batch 18 times, and the puck still has the lumpy surface visible and does not appear to be any smaller.

I figure each small (100 gr of oils) batch will last me at least a year of daily shaves.

Very easy to make a lifetime supply while fine tuning a recipe.

Shavers that insist on a quarter inch thick layer of hard foam instead of a thin layer of super slick, wet lather will use it up much faster though.


----------



## amd

I have made Windsong's original recipe, and now use a variation of Skatergirl46's recipe in post #97 with a few tweaks: I use aloe vera juice as my liquid, OO instead of hemp, and dropped castor down to 3% (I found more than that to be too sticky) and replaced the difference with CO, and no clay or fragrance. I love it.


----------



## AngelBar

I came across this thread a week or so ago at the suggestion of someone else (wish I could remember the thread) and ever since I've been waiting to find some time to make this recipe. 

Well today was the day and I followed Windsong's exact recipe, although I only HP'd it for about 45min. I could have gone longer but it was looking done and I'm always in a hurry.  Couldn't decide whether to add any fragrance or not... so I did both... I filled up two of the containers without and then added a combo of 2/5th Cedarwood EO and 3/5 Lemon EO... but only about 1/5th of an oz total... very faint smelling but I wanted to contrast it with the fragrance free.  I can't wait to try them!  -Many Thanks Windsong!


----------



## jbrewton

AngelBar said:


> I came across this thread a week or so ago at the suggestion of someone else (wish I could remember the thread) and ever since I've been waiting to find some time to make this recipe.
> 
> Well today was the day and I followed Windsong's exact recipe, although I only HP'd it for about 45min. I could have gone longer but it was looking done and I'm always in a hurry.  Couldn't decide whether to add any fragrance or not... so I did both... I filled up two of the containers without and then added a combo of 2/5th Cedarwood EO and 3/5 Lemon EO... but only about 2/10th of an oz total... very faint smelling but I wanted to contrast it with the fragrance free.  I can't wait to try them!  -Many Thanks Windsong!


Looks good. Post some lather pics when you have a Chance.


----------



## psfred

I've found I want fairly weak scents in shaving soap applied to the face.  Goes right under the nose for a while, too much scent can be annoying.

For legs, 'tis another story and you can suit yourself.


----------



## Mark the Box Guy

MiniBee said:


> After reading thru the entire thread I have made my first attempt of Songwind's  awesome shaving recipe.  I did a few alterations from recommendations I found in the thread.  75 KOH/25 NaOH, added some shea and castor oil to the original recipe. Melted the oils and added the lye first, got it to a pudding like trace and then added the stearic acid (thank you Deanna for that suggestion).  Reserved some of the shea for a super fat after the cook and I also added 15% glycerin and 1% sodium lactate at the very end.  Scented it with just a simple Lavender Essential. Got it in some 8 oz jar and let it sit for a week so far.  Let me just say WOW!!!!  I love it.  As Mark the Box Guy said " it lathers itself when I walk by it and wink."    Thank you to all!!!



**** fine photo... and I still wink at it


----------



## Kmyny

Well I got to page 89 of the thread before my stearic acid cane in so I decided to give it a go (windsongs 52/48 SA/CO with 11% glycerin and 3% shea added at the end. Used a 2:1 basil/ lavender Eol blend... too much basil I think. 


Happy how it turned out. Here is picture just a quick lather in my hands cleaning up. As I've gotten used to shaving with my disposable and just water I'm sure my legs will be in for a treat!


----------



## Kmyny

ok so I'm confusing myself here snd being relatively new I'm just going to ask for clarification

adding superfat - 

When using a lye calculator (i happen to use Soapee) - I put in the desired super fat (i.e. 3%). Now - the amount for oils that they give include the extra 3% already? So if I wanted to say have Shea butter as my super fat I would include that in my percentages that I input into the calculator? 

ok so my tired mom brain is having a hard time articulating so lets skip to an example with numbers. 

So for 100g batch 52% stearic acid 48% coconut oil - I input those into the calc and get 52g SA 48g CO and the respective amounts of KOH and water. Now if I add an additional 3% of the oil weight in shea butter (3g for this example) at the end with my glycerin/EO have I now added 6% superfat (because I ticked off the 3% super fat function in the calculator)

I guess what confused me is reading through some people say they reserve X amount of whatever oil for the end after the cook for superfatting and others word it as they add 3% superfat at the end. 

 :-?


----------



## Kittish

Kmyny said:


> ok so I'm confusing myself here snd being relatively new I'm just going to ask for clarification
> 
> adding superfat -
> 
> When using a lye calculator (i happen to use Soapee) - I put in the desired super fat (i.e. 3%). Now - the amount for oils that they give include the extra 3% already? So if I wanted to say have Shea butter as my super fat I would include that in my percentages that I input into the calculator?
> 
> ok so my tired mom brain is having a hard time articulating so lets skip to an example with numbers.
> 
> So for 100g batch 52% stearic acid 48% coconut oil - I input those into the calc and get 52g SA 48g CO and the respective amounts of KOH and water. Now if I add an additional 3% of the oil weight in shea butter (3g for this example) at the end with my glycerin/EO have I now added 6% superfat (because I ticked off the 3% super fat function in the calculator)
> 
> I guess what confused me is reading through some people say they reserve X amount of whatever oil for the end after the cook for superfatting and others word it as they add 3% superfat at the end.
> 
> :-?



Whatever superfat you set is already included in the lye calculation. In your example, if you change the superfat rate and recalculate, you'll see the water and lye amounts change, though the oils will stay the same. You can add your specific SF by adding the shea to your ingredients at whatever SF you've set, then wait til after your cook to mix it in.


----------



## Kmyny

Kittish said:


> Whatever superfat you set is already included in the lye calculation. In your example, if you change the superfat rate and recalculate, you'll see the water and lye amounts change, though the oils will stay the same. You can add your specific SF by adding the shea to your ingredients at whatever SF you've set, then wait til after your cook to mix it in.



Thanks!
That is what I figured and what I thought...In example above the total super fat would be 6% (checked 3% in calculator AND added additional shea) 

I guess reading through that entire thread had my head feeling a little fuzzy!

:headbanging:


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Soapee has an option for adding the SF after the cook, which is handy. 

I always did my post-cook SF calculations this way:

Make the recipe with all of my oils and calculate it up. SF doesn't matter at this point, as I am after the exact weights (my recipes are all saved in %). Then I take out my SF oil and set the calc to work on weights instead of %, with a 0% SF. This gives me the lye amount to saponify my non SF oils and when I add in my SF oils my batch size will be correct


----------



## Skatergirl46

I just heard about Soapee. It made things much easier when trying to make a dual lye shaving soap recipe.


----------



## deighturp

This is just what I'm looking for to make for Christmas, can you please post the recipes for the shaving soap? I'm also looking for  PVC pipe to mold it in.  I was at Home Depot and found some black 3" and 2".  The 3" looks to big and the 2" looks to small.  I think I need 2 1/2", don't even know if it comes in 2 1/2".  But that size would be perfect for shaving soap.  HELP PLEASE!!


----------



## Millie

This thread is full of recipes, starting with post #1. Dive in :shark:
Good luck and let us know your favorite version


----------



## Firestarter

Many thanks to everyone who have made a contribution to this inspiring thread. I've made 25+ formulations, enjoying (almost) every one of them.


----------



## GreenDragon

*Seized!*

I made two batches of shaving soap this week.  First batch I made using  45% Stearic Acid, 25% Coconut Oil, 20% Tallow, 5% Cocoa Butter, 5% Shea Butter, 5% super-fatted, 11% Glycerin, 80/20 KOH/NAOH.  Melted the Stearic separately and added it after the rest of the oils traced.  Continued cooking stirring occasionally until the mixture smoothed out and looked like it was "gelling".  Added my reserved superfat, glycerin, and FO's, mixed, and spooned into plastic containers.  Very happy with the result.

Then I got cocky, and decided to make a soft shaving soap for the wife.  I reduced the SA, increased the water, went full KOH, and followed the same procedure.   Cooked to a smooth gel phase stirring only with a spatula.  I turned around to grab the reserved SF. FO, and glycerin, but before I could add them in it had completely seized soap-on-a-stick up!  

Scraped it out of the bowl into my Kitchen Aid, added the reserved ingredients, and beat into a workable consistency.   Rolled into a tube in parchment paper and let set overnight.  I'm able to cut firm pucks out of the roll.  Wife used it to shave with last night and said it worked great.  But I was really hoping for a creamy, softer set.  Any suggestions?  More water?  Recipe attached.

Thanks! 

View attachment Shave.pdf


----------



## psfred

I would have swapped the coconut and tallow amounts, but I don't see anything that would produce "soap on a stick", especially with that much water (I usually use 190 grams for 500 grams of oils).

Should also be quite soft, too.

Double check your weights, and check your balance in case it's doing something strange or you got goofy amounts somehow (as in something under the container holding it up off the balance!).

If it doesn't zap it will be fine to use though.

I've found shaving soap works just fine by melting the stearic acid into the other oils and adding the lye to the mixture, usually quite hot.  You can finish saponification in 15 minutes or so in a hot crockpot that way.  It will go to "mashed potatoes" instantly due to the stearic acid, but the other oils will saponify just fine and the soap will go through gel very rapidly.  

I've not yet had a hot process soap get hard in the pot though.  Stiff, yes, but impossible to stir, no.


----------



## Skatergirl46

GreenDragon said:


> I made two batches of shaving soap this week.  First batch I made using  45% Stearic Acid, 25% Coconut Oil, 20% Tallow, 5% Cocoa Butter, 5% Shea Butter, 5% super-fatted, 11% Glycerin, 80/20 KOH/NAOH.  Melted the Stearic separately and added it after the rest of the oils traced.  Continued cooking stirring occasionally until the mixture smoothed out and looked like it was "gelling".  Added my reserved superfat, glycerin, and FO's, mixed, and spooned into plastic containers.  Very happy with the result.
> 
> Then I got cocky, and decided to make a soft shaving soap for the wife.  I reduced the SA, increased the water, went full KOH, and followed the same procedure.   Cooked to a smooth gel phase stirring only with a spatula.  I turned around to grab the reserved SF. FO, and glycerin, but before I could add them in it had completely seized soap-on-a-stick up!
> 
> Scraped it out of the bowl into my Kitchen Aid, added the reserved ingredients, and beat into a workable consistency.   Rolled into a tube in parchment paper and let set overnight.  I'm able to cut firm pucks out of the roll.  Wife used it to shave with last night and said it worked great.  But I was really hoping for a creamy, softer set.  Any suggestions?  More water?  Recipe attached.
> 
> Thanks!


I’d up the Stearic and lower the Coconut. Coconut oil makes a lot of bubbles but not the dense creamy stable kind needed for shaving soap. Most tutorials that I have seen say to use 50% or more.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

The basic is 50/50 co and stearic. When I changed that, I lowered the stearic only slightly and took out a lot of the co.


----------



## Boonie21

If my daughter is making the original recipe from B&B forum for her eight grade science project - if she wanted to make a version using an animal milk like goat, etc ... does she swap the water for equal parts animal milk and allow the KOH to react with frozen milk & produce a “lye-milk” or does she follow the recipe as “usual” and then add the goats milk after cooking along with glycerin, EOs and such?  I’ve read 85 pages of this thread and can’t seem to find anyone addressing using animal milk. Thx! Jason


----------



## Firestarter

GreenDragon said:


> ...
> Then I got cocky, and decided to make a soft shaving soap for the wife.  I reduced the SA, increased the water, went full KOH, and followed the same procedure.   Cooked to a smooth gel phase stirring only with a spatula.  I turned around to grab the reserved SF. FO, and glycerin, but before I could add them in it had completely seized soap-on-a-stick up!
> ...


What was the temperature? I've had soap seize when soaping too hot. The fast reaction of KOH + SA then creates enough heat to boil off a lot of water.
I usually keep it at 75°C and 25-27% lye concentration to avoid this.


----------



## Spin

Thanks for sharing this. I might just give this a try.


----------



## smeadows

any chance you can share the water & KOH amounts? I can't seem to find the original recipe.
Thanks


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

I would put it in to a lye calc (such as soapee) - that'll give you the amounts you need more safely. Many members won't post lye amounts because any errors can be dangerous, not to mention that it's best to run any recipe through a calc, even if (,or especially if!) those amounts are given.


----------



## DeeAnna

The original recipe is in Post #1 of this thread: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=327878&postcount=1 It doesn't give weights of the individual fats -- it just gives percentages -- but Songwind does give the total amount of fat (8 oz) that he used. You could follow his lead -- and if this is your first time making shave soap, it's a good amount to make -- not too little, and not too much.

If you are used to having a recipe fully spelled out for you, I encourage you to use a soap recipe calculator like Soapee rather than ask for someone else to do this work for you. It's easier than you think, and you'll be a better soaper for the experience. Honest! Craig is right about the KOH and water amounts -- it's always best if you calculate those yourself so YOU KNOW the numbers are right. Never trust another soaper's numbers -- even the most experienced and capable soapers can make mistakes.

I'm having to speak from memory about using Soapee because the site seems to be down right now, but here goes --

Go to http://soapee.com/calc

Choose KOH as the lye you want to use. 

Set your KOH purity to 90% if you don't know the actual purity of yoru KOH. If you do know the purity, then use that number instead.

Set the lye concentration to 25%. 

Enter the superfat % that you want to use. If you don't know, just leave the superfat set at the default of 5%. 

Enter in the total weight of fat for the batch you want to make.

Set your units to percentages. Enter the percentages of the stearic acid and coconut oil from Post 1.

Soapee will calculate the KOH and water amounts for your recipe. Voila! If you want one of us to check the recipe for you, just ask.


----------



## kuroda

Sorry to bump up a thread that hasn't been posted in for a while. 
I've combed through the thread and have really appreciated the tutorial by silverfox and everyone's input about making the soap more moisturizing by substituting in other oils for the coconut oil. 

I've made a test recipe that will be 8oz total and I was hoping for some feedback on it.

Using Soapee as the calculator here's my recipe:

Liquid Soap usingh KOH (potassium Hydroxide) - Is this the correct option? The soap will be soft but not liquid this way
25% lye concentration
5% superfat of oils

Oil Recipe percentages:
45% Stearic Acid
25% Coconut Oil
20% Beef Tallow (I'll buy suet and process it myself if I can't find any online)
5% Aloe Butter
5% Avocado Oil

I plan to add 2.5% Lanolin and 2.5% Aloe butter to the mix after saponification and then add 11% glycerin and .05% tetrasodium EDTA then as well. I want to use aloe vera hydrosol in place of the water  I'll be following the guide at silverfox crafts for the processing!

Here's images of my recipe:


----------



## Mark the Box Guy

kuroda said:


> I've combed through the thread and have really appreciated the tutorial by silverfox and .........



Where's the love, dude?


----------



## kuroda

Mark the Box Guy said:


> Where's the love, dude?


I didn't mean to leave anyone out!  I just am a very visual learner and I really was happy to have a step-by-step guide with photos.


----------



## psfred

That will work.  I use less coconut oil and more tallow, but there isn't any reason not to try your recipe.

I would put the EDTA in the water for the lye, and would use 0.1% or more.  I've also had issues with rancidity in my shaving soaps, so I now use 0.1% citrate and BHT in everything.  May or may not be an issue with tallow for you, but something to think about.

Home made shaving soaps last a very long time for me, be careful not to get too excited and make a couple pounds of various experiments like I did.  I won't need any more for about a decade.....


----------



## LBussy

kuroda said:


> I plan to add 2.5% Lanolin and 2.5% Aloe butter to the mix after saponification


It's early so my coffee has not fully sunk in yet.  You may be saying the right thing but I'm reading it wrong.  Do you mean you will add an additional 2.5% of each of those, or retain 2.5% of each of those to add after saponification  The latter would be correct.  The former would raise your superfat to 10% which is a little high/greasy.

Other than that it looks solid.  I've never used aloe in a shave soap so please let us know how it comes out.


----------



## kuroda

LBussy said:


> It's early so my coffee has not fully sunk in yet.  You may be saying the right thing but I'm reading it wrong.  Do you mean you will add an additional 2.5% of each of those, or retain 2.5% of each of those to add after saponification  The latter would be correct.  The former would raise your superfat to 10% which is a little high/greasy.
> 
> Other than that it looks solid.  I've never used aloe in a shave soap so please let us know how it comes out.



I wasn't specific enough in my original post! I would retain 2.5% of each of those to add after saponification. I'll post with the results of my batch when It's done!


----------



## Maniukee

Hi everyone, this is an amazing threat, I had no idea how to do a shaving soap, I have some of them ( Truefitt and Hill, Tabac, Martin Candré) but I would like to try a handmade shaving soap. Thanks to everyone who shows his success and his fails. In some months I will post my results.


----------



## alatos

I just tried making the first recipe in this thread as my first shaving soap. All went well until the mashed potato stage. No matter how much I stirred, the soap would not thin up. I kept heating it for around a half hour, and nothing changed. Passed the zap test. I froze a small amount and tested the lather. It was beautiful. So I put the soap in molds. We'll see how it turns out. I'm confused why the soap never moved past the mashed potato stage, though.


----------



## IrishLass

alatos said:


> I just tried making the first recipe in this thread as my first shaving soap. All went well until the mashed potato stage. No matter how much I stirred, the soap would not thin up. I kept heating it for around a half hour, and nothing changed. Passed the zap test. I froze a small amount and tested the lather. It was beautiful. So I put the soap in molds. We'll see how it turns out. I'm confused why the soap never moved past the mashed potato stage, though.



It looks like your soap did exactly what it was supposed to do. The mashed potato stage is the last stage a hot-processed soap goes through before glopping it into the mold. It would be abnormal for it to thin up after that, unless you added some form of extra liquid to it, that is. 


IrishLass


----------



## alatos

IrishLass said:


> It looks like your soap did exactly what it was supposed to do. The mashed potato stage is the last stage a hot-processed soap goes through before glopping it into the mold. It would be abnormal for it to thin up after that, unless you added some form of extra liquid to it, that is.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


Ahh, I see. I was thinking it would initially look like mashed potatoes, then thin back out into something resembling vasoline, then finally thicken up again as it cooked off the water. What happened to mine was instant mashed potatoes, then I just cooked and stirred for another half hour or 45 minutes. The soap works great actually, better than I could have hoped. After hardening overnight, it's about the consistency of Figaro Italian soap, so almost like super duper firm, but also light, playdough.


----------



## Emzed

Interesting. A few online tutorials I've seen mention that after mashed potatoes the shaving soap should / will develop a very thick pudding type consistency. 

On a different note, this is a very informative thread and I appreciate that everyone here has freely given out a lot of valuable information. I'm a hobbysit cold process soap maker and this thread has motivated me to try my hand soon at hot process shaving soap [emoji4]


----------



## DeeAnna

The texture changes you're talking about will depend a little on the method, the recipe, the water content, the temperature, and the experience of the person making the soap. The essential goal is to get the the fat and the alkali (KOH, NaOH, or both) to saponify until all of the alkali is consumed. Whether you see mashed potatoes, applesauce, flying bubbles, vaseline, or whatever during this process is not particularly important. I don't cook my shave soap for hours and hours -- it's zap free in under 1/2 hour so I don't cook it any longer than that, and I seldom see any of those stages y'all are looking for. It turns out fine.


----------



## alatos

DeeAnna said:


> The texture changes you're talking about will depend a little on the method, the recipe, the water content, the temperature, and the experience of the person making the soap. The essential goal is to get the the fat and the alkali (KOH, NaOH, or both) to saponify until all of the alkali is consumed. Whether you see mashed potatoes, applesauce, flying bubbles, vaseline, or whatever during this process is not particularly important. I don't cook my shave soap for hours and hours -- it's zap free in under 1/2 hour so I don't cook it any longer than that, and I seldom see any of those stages y'all are looking for. It turns out fine.


This makes a lot of sense. Thank you.


----------



## redhead1226

Nice thread - I read it again to refresh my knowledge base and thank you for all that contributed. I have a question that maybe was addressed but I didn't see it. 

To the experienced gentlemen or ladies that have used other brands ( pucks ) from some of the well know vendors of shave soap - What was the texture of those? They seem to me from pictures that they have a more finished look. Is this true?

Thanks!
Sherry


----------



## psfred

All of the solid (as in not croap) soaps I've tried were waxy pucks that look like they were sliced off an extruded roll.  That is how I would make it if I were making shaving soap in commercial quantities.  They are all soft enough to mold with hand pressure -- the hardest one is Derby shaving stick, probably the softest I've used is Haslinger.  I don't have any 100% KOH "croaps" -- those are soft enough that they don't work as pucks.

Some of the "artisan" soaps appear a bit rough as they appear to be scooped into jars by hand,


----------



## Fluffy Bunny

Hi all,
Hope you don't mind joining in.
Yep, its the dreaded shave soap battle.
Did my first shave soap, and whilst I have spent an age researching old recipes to new ones. 
Decided there's nothing like doing it yourself, making mistakes and learning by them.
Happily I'll share the recipe as a starting work in process. 
I've started at a 90/10% starting point of NaOH/KoH
The images attached were taken within hours of making (because it set ssssooooo fast, lol) and separated a bit. lol.
But, I have learnt oooddles.
For reference I tried via cold process method and learnt firstly, I should of whisked and beat for longer at the end when adding the 80gr of glycerin to force it to accept and blend in.
The images were for first after putting in mould.
The final images of a lather from the first to last were tried (because wanted to see first how it did before curing) 5 mins left standing, then 50 mins later. 
To be honest was happy how it stayed on the brush 50 mins after going out and coming back to see if it held on the brush.
Apologies for old shave brush as bristles at end of use as hubby needs new one.
Will cure the pucks for 4 - 6 weeks as I usually do with all other soaps, and see how they mature.
Feedback welcome

Recipe:
Castor Oil 36.2 gr
Coconut Oil 76 deg 108.7 gr
Palm Oil (RSPO) 217.4 gr
Soy Wax 181.2 gr
Stearic Acid 144.9 gr
Sunflower Oil 36.2 gr
NaOH 90.2 gr
KoH 15.6 gr
and after all mixed Glycerine added 80 gr


----------



## redhead1226

I have a question that maybe some of you can answer. Has anyone tried Silk in their shaving soap? And how do you think it would effect it? Positively or negatively?


----------



## Fluffy Bunny

redhead1226 said:


> I have a question that maybe some of you can answer. Has anyone tried Silk in their shaving soap? And how do you think it would effect it? Positively or negatively?


Hi there,
I'm learning with the shave soap side of things as above and you can see. But, I am led to believe depending on whether you use liquid silk or the fiber silk itself it adds smoothness quality to the soap.
Depending on which one you use a general rule of thumb for the fiber silk put into your Lye solution at above 170 degrees F and mix thoroughly to avoid clumping (it'll take a few mins to dissolve). The liquid silk about max of 5% but thats a guide everyone is different but silk does make soap have a shiny effect visibly also.
So i would say it would give a smoothness on the skin in shave soap, but not used yet only in my normal soap making.
Sorry if telling you stuff you already know, but just mentioning just incase.
Give it a go and let me know also x


----------



## LBussy

I'm not sure a well-crafted shaving soap would benefit by the addition of silk ... as a marketing item/differentiator for soap made for sale it might be interesting, but I'm betting a blind test (literally, so people could not see the soap) would not show a benefit to it.


----------



## redhead1226

LBussy said:


> I'm not sure a well-crafted shaving soap would benefit by the addition of silk ... as a marketing item/differentiator for soap made for sale it might be interesting, but I'm betting a blind test (literally, so people could not see the soap) would not show a benefit to it.



Not sure, this is why I wanted some input as I do not use shave soaps. But Im going to make a small batch with and without. I know how much I like it in some of my other soap recipes, so Ill test it. Thank you for your input.


----------



## LBussy

Testing is always good!  

I'm just going on my experience with my own recipes - I've not found any additive that substantially improved the shave experience (for me.)  Maybe the next time I have to purchase supplies I'll get a little silk and give it a go.  Might be a while since I buy in bulk and my supplies seem to last forever for the volume I do.


----------



## psfred

With that much stearic acid you will get much better results by using hot process, as the stearic acid saponifies on contact with lye.

I use 60/40 KOH/NaOH, and will eventually try 70% KOH -- the soap will lather much more easily with higher KOH content.  10% is likely to give you trouble with maintaining lather for more than a minute or two, and will be significantly more difficult to lather up.

As far as additives and fancy oils go, unless you add the oils after the cook in hot process, they only contribute fatty acids to the soap, and I've not personally found a huge difference in performance so long as the stearic plus palmitic acid content is 50% or higher.  Shea or cocoa butter after the cook is nice, as they leave some "conditioning" behind when you rinse the soap off.  Might also be true for other oils, but you still need to keep the fatty acid profile correct for shaving soap.

Experiment to your heart's delight, worse case you will just be making bath soap instead of shaving soap.


----------



## Vokara

I'm curious to know, what is the difference between shave soap and cream soap?


----------



## DeeAnna

If you're talking about cream soap vs. a KOH-NaOH shave soap, they're essentially the same thing. I think of a shave soap as basically a type of cream soap. The key differences are the balance of fats and the type of preparation. Cream soap is often mixed with more liquids and whipped, and shave soap is left in a more-or-less solidish form.


----------



## Vokara

DeeAnna said:


> If you're talking about cream soap vs. a KOH-NaOH shave soap, they're essentially the same thing. I think of a shave soap as basically a type of cream soap. The key differences are the balance of fats and the type of preparation. Cream soap is often mixed with more liquids and whipped, and shave soap is left in a more-or-less solidish form.


Thank you


----------



## slickjim

The End! Finally read through everything. 

A HUGE thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have never seen so descriptive and well articulated posts in any other forum. Again thanks for sharing all that knowledge. 

I made 3 batches before I read all pages. Each batch better than the previous. Bought razors, brushes, commercial soaps to compare. All the stuff most of the newbies did here I guess. Surprisingly, I have 2 friends who shave with brushes, so I am getting some feedback. I have a beard so can't do much testing. I do shave my armpits though since I am European (huhu) and boy what a difference. DE + Shaving Soap and you are done in seconds with less irritation and great results. Also, SHMBO was very skeptical about all the crazy stuff I am doing. Then she tried it on her legs...now, my biggest fan. I am actually thinking of getting her own brush. I don't really appreciate the sharing on those  

At the moment I am doing variations on the Silver Fox recipe. I don't have access to Tallow but a local animal farm has its butcher shop in the neighborhood so I get good quality Lard.  In the last batch I decreased the CO by 5% and pumped the Lard with the same. The only thing I dislike is that Lard has a strong smell and I am still figuring out the fragrance percentages. 

Of course, I also have a few questions if that is all right. 

Castor Oil: Seems that most people here are not fans. Looking at commercial soaps and most of them will include it. I also bought Soap Commander's book which also uses Castor Oil in most of the recipes. I read that it helps with the lather so, it makes me wonder what is it that you don't like in it? Stickiness is one I saw but what else? 

@LBussy I read that you now use Titanium Dioxide. I was wondering where in the process do you add it? When mixing the rest of the superfat and fragrance? 

Next tests will be with changing the NaOH/KOH ratios. 

I feel I haven't said it enough. Thank you all!!!


----------



## girlfromoz

Fabulous thread, great info shared and a giggle along the way  .
Thanks all for posting your trials and knowledge, have not made a shave soap and always wanted to.


----------



## IrishLass

slickjim said:


> The End! Finally read through everything.



Yay! 





slickjim said:


> Castor Oil: Seems that most people here are not fans. Looking at commercial soaps and most of them will include it. I also bought Soap Commander's book which also uses Castor Oil in most of the recipes. I read that it helps with the lather so, it makes me wonder what is it that you don't like in it? Stickiness is one I saw but what else?



I'm probably not the best one to answer, because I happen to love castor oil and am a huge fan of it in the shave soap I make for my hubby where I use it at 20%. Although some might imagine 20% castor leading to a horribly uncomfortable amount of stickiness, it really doesn't do so in a soap with a predominately high amount of hard fats, such as my shave soap formula. Although it does lend a slight tackiness to the lather, hubby says that little bit of tackiness is a good quality to have because it helps to keep the lather on his face longer while he's shaving, yet at the same time it's not enough to leave his skin feeling sticky afterwards.


IrishLass


----------



## kmarvel

what is theexact recipe for this shaving soap using just KOH the HP method?  Thanks.





songwind said:


> This weekend I made my first shaving soap. It was a hot process soap, and used a recipe posted by a fellow forum poster at one of the wet shaving forums.
> 
> I did a small batch (8 oz). 52% stearic acid, 48% coconut oil, saponified with KOH. I added 1.5 tablespoons of glycerin after it was done cooking, along with 1/4 oz of essential oils: 2/3 lemon & bergamot, 1/3 rosemary.
> 
> The soap making went fine, with no surprises aside from the soap never becoming truly translucent like my olive oil soap did. It passed the zap test, though.
> 
> I used it to shave tonight, and it was lovely. Nice and slick, and there was no skin reaction to the EOs. My face feels very nice afterward.
> 
> The scent turned out too lemony, and the rosemary was lost underneath. Next time, more basenotes and less lemon.
> 
> Just after pouring:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 24 hours to set:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whipped up a great lather:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was very stable. This is after sitting 15 minutes while I showered and brushed my teeth:


----------



## Pjclark1

I cheat the HP in my microwave. Heat until foams stir it down, then repeat until cooked.


----------



## LBussy

slickjim said:


> The End! Finally read through everything.


Congratulations!  It's a long and information-filled thread.



slickjim said:


> @LBussy I read that you now use Titanium Dioxide. I was wondering where in the process do you add it? When mixing the rest of the superfat and fragrance?


Well, that depends.    I have oil-soluble Titanium Dioxide and I add it at the end with the superfats and fragrance.  This allows me to use it as a visual aid to see if I have everything well and truly blended.  It also comes in a water-soluble variety, which you would have to add with the lye water.  I prefer the oil-soluble but ultimately it will not make much difference.  It does not react in any way with the rest of the ingredients, it only serves as a colorant.



kmarvel said:


> what is theexact recipe for this shaving soap using just KOH the HP method?  Thanks.


The first recipe in this thread is a 100% KOH soap using HP.  I've also shared a longer tutorial and recipe here:

http://www.silverfoxcrafts.com/shaving-soap/


----------



## slickjim

IrishLass said:


> Yay!
> 
> 
> I'm probably not the best one to answer, because I happen to love castor oil and am a huge fan of it in the shave soap I make for my hubby where I use it at 20%. Although some might imagine 20% castor leading to a horribly uncomfortable amount of stickiness, it really doesn't do so in a soap with a predominately high amount of hard fats, such as my shave soap formula. Although it does lend a slight tackiness to the lather, hubby says that little bit of tackiness is a good quality to have because it helps to keep the lather on his face longer while he's shaving, yet at the same time it's not enough to leave his skin feeling sticky afterwards.
> IrishLass



Good to hear! Then I will give it a try and get some feedback. I am thinking of the following: 

45% SA
20% CO
20% Lard
5% Castor Oil
5% Shea Butter 
5% Lanolin 
12% Glycerin
Titanium Dioxide

Still debating on the KOH/NaOH levels.



LBussy said:


> Congratulations!  It's a long and information-filled thread.
> Well, that depends.    I have oil-soluble Titanium Dioxide and I add it at the end with the superfats and fragrance.  This allows me to use it as a visual aid to see if I have everything well and truly blended.  It also comes in a water-soluble variety, which you would have to add with the lye water.  I prefer the oil-soluble but ultimately it will not make much difference.  It does not react in any way with the rest of the ingredients, it only serves as a colorant.



Thanks! I think mine is oil-soluble as well. I've used it once when making CP soap and added towards the end of mixing. I believe it will give a more finished look to the shaving soap. 

I am still afraid of the fragrance. Last time I had around 70 drops of Essential Oils. Wife, says it still smells like fried toast. I know, it's mentioned that a good proportion is 3% of oil wieght but even that feels too much. I will be taking it slowly I guess.

Boy, I had some good laughs while reading these pages as well


----------



## DeeAnna

Since shave soap (at least the kind with stearic acid) should be hot processed and since shave soap is right under a person's nose, I scent it more lightly than CP bath soap.

The intensity of the scent depends on the fragrance itself, so what works at 3% for one scent might be too much for another.

My favorite EO blend for shave soap. I use this at 3%, but everyone's nose is different, so YMMV.
Lavender 64%
Rosemary 30%
Peppermint 6%


----------



## IrishLass

slickjim said:


> I am still afraid of the fragrance. Last time I had around 70 drops of Essential Oils. Wife, says it still smells like fried toast. I know, it's mentioned that a good proportion is 3% of oil wieght but even that feels too much. I will be taking it slowly I guess.



My hubby really dislikes shaving with strongly-scented shaving soap (he has a bionic really sensitive nose), so I add fragrance to his shave soap @ 2% ppo, which is about .3 0z. ppo.


IrishLass


----------



## Abbahail

I would love to have the recipe. Could you share where you found it? I am relatively new at this, but up until now, all I've done is HP.  I just need to know what the process you used was...When to add what and was there a temperature requirement at any given time?


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

There are a lot of recipes and contributors in this thread - who were you asking in particular?





Abbahail said:


> I would love to have the recipe. Could you share where you found it? I am relatively new at this, but up until now, all I've done is HP.  I just need to know what the process you used was...When to add what and was there a temperature requirement at any given time?


----------



## Pjclark1

If you're making shaving soap, you need aftershave balm to complete  the shave.
25gm Aloe, 25gm Thakkers Witch hazel, 5gm glycerin, whip it up with 3 drops of fragrance oil for an 'Arko' experience at a fraction of the price.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

We'll, you don't really. Even with my last batch, which wasn't the best variation I had ever made, I didn't need to use anything afterwards and I shave with a straight razor. I only put on my aftershave (astringent, not a balm) for the bay rum scent.


----------



## LBussy

Abbahail said:


> I would love to have the recipe. Could you share where you found it? I am relatively new at this, but up until now, all I've done is HP.  I just need to know what the process you used was...When to add what and was there a temperature requirement at any given time?


Abbahail, I'm not sure who you were asking.  There's 55 pages of discussion in this thread and all of it excellent.  If you want a step by step with the recipe, pictures and such, you can look here:

http://www.silverfoxcrafts.com/shaving-soap/

If you look at the very first post on this thread there's a similar recipe from Songwind.


----------



## Abbahail

Thank you!


----------



## redhead1226

LBussy said:


> Abbahail, I'm not sure who you were asking.  There's 55 pages of discussion in this thread and all of it excellent.  If you want a step by step with the recipe, pictures and such, you can look here:
> 
> http://www.silverfoxcrafts.com/shaving-soap/
> 
> If you look at the very first post on this thread there's a similar recipe from Songwind.




Lee - I just finished reading your recipe and your process. First, Great job! You were super thorough in explaining your technique, recipe and why's and why not's. I'm going to give it a whirl for some father's day gifts for my sons and their friends. What I didn't see is when you added the glycerin. I read it over a few times thinking I just missed it ( which I probably did) or I'm just retarded.  Could you tell me where it is located in your article? Thanks!


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

You add it after the cook, along with superfat and scents.


----------



## LBussy

redhead1226 said:


> Lee - I just finished reading your recipe and your process. First, Great job! You were super thorough in explaining your technique, recipe and why's and why not's. I'm going to give it a whirl for some father's day gifts for my sons and their friends. What I didn't see is when you added the glycerin. I read it over a few times thinking I just missed it ( which I probably did) or I'm just retarded.  Could you tell me where it is located in your article? Thanks!


I think soapers have various practices when it comes to when the glycerin is added.  I actually add it to my lye water these days.  In that way I am absolutely sure the glycerin is mixed in thoroughly.  Because it's non-reactive, it really doesn't matter much when it goes in.  Because it loves water so much, it makes it easier to get it fully incorporated if I add it to water rather than to oil.  That's my thinking anyway.

I didn't realize I left that step out of the article.  I'll have to make some time and go in there and change it.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

It's true - I mainly add it at the end to give more volume to the scent and superfat to help mix everything in


----------



## hellonatural

That looks great -thanks for sharing! What SF did you use? I don't know how stearic acid effects the soap, but I know that CO makes a very drying soap. Thx!


----------



## redhead1226

LBussy said:


> I think soapers have various practices when it comes to when the glycerin is added.  I actually add it to my lye water these days.  In that way I am absolutely sure the glycerin is mixed in thoroughly.  Because it's non-reactive, it really doesn't matter much when it goes in.  Because it loves water so much, it makes it easier to get it fully incorporated if I add it to water rather than to oil.  That's my thinking anyway.
> 
> I didn't realize I left that step out of the article.  I'll have to make some time and go in there and change it.



Thank you for responding - I was going to add it near the end so Im glad you clarified this. Adding it to the lye water makes much more sense. Thanks - Ill let you know how it turns out.


----------



## slickjim

Thank you @DeeAnna  and @IrishLass for the scent suggestions. I will play with it with the next batch.


----------



## redhead1226

I have a quick question as I've read everything here. I have never made any soap HP method. I'm going to try a shaving soap and I'm confused about the water concentration. I've seen so many variations with the dual lye method.  What lye concentration do I want? I feel like an idiot but I'm not getting it. Does it differ with the length of the cook? More water more cook time I would think. Pls straighten me out on this.


----------



## Pjclark1

redhead1226 said:


> I have a quick question as I've read everything here. I have never made any soap HP method. I'm going to try a shaving soap and I'm confused about the water concentration. I've seen so many variations with the dual lye method.  What lye concentration do I want? I feel like an idiot but I'm not getting it. Does it differ with the length of the cook? More water more cook time I would think. Pls straighten me out on this.


Doesn't really matter as far as I can see, you just cook longer if you have more water. I usually microwave my shaving soap until it's stiff enough. I just cook enough for me. 300gm lasts a year. Microwave until foam (30s) stir down, repeat until ready.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Aye. It will be a bit of trial and error to get it just right. Even if the soap itself is more or less firm, it'll still perform very well


----------



## LBussy

I use 33% water as percentage of oil weight.  I don't see any reason you could not add both lyes to that, they are going to mix anyway. =


----------



## Misty Morning

Whoa, you guys (and gals)- thank you!  I made a CP “shaving soap” recipe with Bentonite and castor and wasn’t very happy with how it lathered- meh, in the extreme.  I thought I’d see what the ole inter web had to say... and here you all are with an overflowing cornucopia of frothy lore.  I am so grateful!  Thank you for all the recipes, testing, discussion and information!  

I don’t have great access to tallow (though I might need to figure out a way to change that) so I’m going to start with one of the modifications using lard.  I’ll report back.  I’m so excited to try a proper formulation.  Thanks again for your generosity.


----------



## psfred

For a small supply of tallow, you can just buy cheap (high fat) ground beef and save the fat after you brown it.  Don't let the water all boil away, you don't want to get the fat smoking hot or it will smell like a hamburger right off the grill when you make soap with it.

I use a large spoon to remove the fat after scraping the beef over to one side of the pan and put the hot fat into an empty yogurt cup.  Let it solidify in the fridge, then pop the tallow out and remove any gelled protein from the bottom.  Save up a couple "pucks", then melt them with a cup of so of water in a small pan and allow it to just simmer for about ten minutes, then cool and chill.  once it's solid, run a knife around the tallow and lift it out, discard the water.  If the water is dark colored, repeat the simmer with fresh water.  Freeze the tallow until you are ready to use it, unwrapped (this will remove water as it holds a bit).  Make soap when you have enough.

Or check at your local grocery, they often have beef fat trimmings they will sell cheap and you can render the tallow.  A bit stinky, and you must keep the temperature low, but inexpensive.


----------



## LBussy

Tallow is the rendered fat from around the kidneys of the cow (or other ungulates), also called "leaf fat".   The fat from the muscles is probably fine, but it's nowhere near as hard as tallow.  Lard is okay but I find soaps made from it have a "sticky" quality I don't like as well.  Not sticky really but not smooth, it's hard to explain. 

If you are in the US, you can get tallow on eBay even.  I've also purchased it from Amazon.   If you are in another country, perhaps someone here will be able to help.


----------



## Misschief

I'm in BC, Canada. I've gotten my tallow at my local butcher's (when they have it available). My last order of tallow came from Voyageur Soap & Candle.


----------



## cjisler

psfred said:


> For a small supply of tallow, you can just buy cheap (high fat) ground beef and save the fat after you brown it.  Don't let the water all boil away, you don't want to get the fat smoking hot or it will smell like a hamburger right off the grill when you make soap with it.
> 
> I use a large spoon to remove the fat after scraping the beef over to one side of the pan and put the hot fat into an empty yogurt cup.  Let it solidify in the fridge, then pop the tallow out and remove any gelled protein from the bottom.  Save up a couple "pucks", then melt them with a cup of so of water in a small pan and allow it to just simmer for about ten minutes, then cool and chill.  once it's solid, run a knife around the tallow and lift it out, discard the water.  If the water is dark colored, repeat the simmer with fresh water.  Freeze the tallow until you are ready to use it, unwrapped (this will remove water as it holds a bit).  Make soap when you have enough.
> 
> Or check at your local grocery, they often have beef fat trimmings they will sell cheap and you can render the tallow.  A bit stinky, and you must keep the temperature low, but inexpensive.



Yes, this. All day long, this. I’ve been doing it for over 25 years. People think I’m nuts when I say the best shaving soap I ever made was over half hamburger fat that I saved. We have grass fed suet, too, but it’s not necessarily better. I save suet for healing salves, not saponifying. 
Carol in SC


----------



## MickeyRat

I'm a total noob when it comes to soap making but, after reading this whole thread, I had to try it yesterday.  First time with KOH or SA.  There were a few surprises.  The recipe I used was:

50 %  SA
45%   CO
5%     Shea Butter superfat added at the end

85/15  KOH/NaOH

I made a 6 oz batch.  My scale only has 1gm resolution (a better one is on the way.) so, my percentages were approximate. 

Noob surprises/mistakes.  I used DeeAnna's method of two double boilers.  I put the lye in the CO and started melting the SA at about the same time.  The SA took a long time to melt.  The CO went through trace and later tried to volcano on me which looked real strange with KOH.  Lots of white flecks churning in grey.  It never got too thick to stick blend which I did like mad.  It eventually calmed down and took on a smooth white consistency and was very stable.  Finally the SA was melted.  When I added it, as expected, every thing hardened and got a little lumpy.  That's when I added the shea butter and scent, stirred and put into containers.  I worked up some lather with a crumb left in the cup I used to do the cook.








The lather was stable 30 minutes later.  I haven't tried it yet but, probably will later this morning.   Like everyone else after drying overnight, the consistency is like playdough that's dried a bit.  My big mistake was the scent.  I used Drakkar type from Bramble Berry.  3% came to 5.1 gms.  I put in 4 gms.  That's a bit strong.


----------



## psfred

Brambleberry's Drakkar is mighty powerful stuff indeed.  I would have used about six drops, maybe four, and it would still be way too much for me, never did like Drakkar.  Fortunately, it does fade somewhat  with time, and in a month or so won't be so strong.

You may find that recipe to be somewhat drying, I don't use more than 10% CO.  It will shave nicely though, and it will improve somewhat as it cures -- it will also get a little firmer.   Load lightly, it takes very little soap with that formula to make mountains of lather, and make sure you get enough water in it.  It's very easy to make sticky paste rather than slick lather.

I don't bother with separating the oils, just melt them all together and mix in the lye.  If you have the oils pretty hot and the lye fresh, you can have finished soap in 30 min.  Use full water and keep it hot, else the stearic acid will go really grainy on you.  Not an issue for the finished soap, but it makes even mixing more difficult.


----------



## MickeyRat

psfred said:


> Brambleberry's Drakkar is mighty powerful stuff indeed.  I would have used about six drops, maybe four, and it would still be way too much for me, never did like Drakkar.  Fortunately, it does fade somewhat  with time, and in a month or so won't be so strong.



I neglected to say that I put 15% glycerin in the lye water so it's not too drying.  I did try it this morning.  I realize it'll take a week or two to get to it's peak but, this is for personal use and I had to try it.  By the time you work it into foam and get it on your face, the Drakkar's not too bad.

If you're only putting in 10% CO what else are you using tallow?

There's another thing I'm a noob at I'm afraid.  I've been using Edge for years.  I believe this gave me a better shave but, it did seem to take a lot of water compared to what I've seen in youtube videos.  I'd say good first effort on the soap.  Now I've asked for a safety razor for Father's day. 

I may have to make the next batch the same way.  My wife wants to see that weird volcano thing. She missed it.


----------



## psfred

Lol, two drops of Drakkar in 70 gr of soap was too much for me, although it was bearable six months later.  Not my scent.

Most u-tubers use enough soap for an army for each shave, far more than is either necessary or desirable.  You want light, slick lather with lots of water, it must be shiny and almost run off your face.  I get my best shaves when the lather actually drips off the razor as I shave -- it's the lubrication of the skin than counts, lather must be very slippery to allow the edge of the razor to slip over the skin while cutting the hairs off cleanly.  Gummy dry lather is useless.


----------



## redhead1226

OK after reading ALL of the posts on every shaving topic here I have made about 10 different shaving soap recipes.  I finally have settled on one. I like it. I have shaved my legs a million times! However, I am never going to shave my face or clearly understand fully what a MAN wants in a shave formula.  I did use Lanolin in one recipe and I wasn't crazy about it. I thought it took away from the awesomeness of the lather a bit and I didnt like the skin feel after. I used it as a part of the SF after the cook along with shea butter and glycerin. 

Question - Would Lanolin have brought more to the soap if I used it IN the recipe for the cook?  And what would be the difference in using a different butter other then shea in the SF a the end? Has anyone tried Aloe Butter? Or is aloe butter one of the "fake" butters? lol 

Im going to make 2 more batches so I want to get some info as these 2 will be the last before I decide on which to stick with.  And am I using enough to SF in a 16oz batch  I'm using 60/40 KOH/NaOH Even a critique on my recipe would be good. Im a woman making a soap for a man! I have 3 sons and the DH and they are zero help! They never give a honest opinion as they always think they are going to insult me. lol - Im going to give these that I made to friends and 3 of my neighbors for testing. 

This is my recipe at this point. 

Stearic Acid  40%
Beef Tallow  20%
Coconut  15%
Castor  12%
Shea Butter  5%
Kokum Butter  8%

SF in a 16oz batch
Shea Butter 1 oz
Gylcerin  1.55 oz
Fragrance  0.60 oz

Any assistance will be appreciated.


----------



## MickeyRat

> Lol, two drops of Drakkar in 70 gr of soap was too much for me, although it was bearable six months later. Not my scent.
> 
> Most u-tubers use enough soap for an army for each shave, far more than is either necessary or desirable. You want light, slick lather with lots of water, it must be shiny and almost run off your face. I get my best shaves when the lather actually drips off the razor as I shave -- it's the lubrication of the skin than counts, lather must be very slippery to allow the edge of the razor to slip over the skin while cutting the hairs off cleanly. Gummy dry lather is useless.




With what little knowledge I have, I agree.  OTOH before I looked at youtube, I would have told you that the soap belonged in the cup.  So, I learned something.  My experience with this soap says the youtube videos go heavy on the brush loading and light on the water for this soap.  A few swipes with a damp brush on the soap and about a tablespoon of water in the cup was very effective for me.  The shave was great!


----------



## psfred

That recipe will make a decent shave soap.  I have not used my castor oil containing shave soaps enough to tell if it adds much, but initially the lather wasn't as good with that much castor.  

My personal favorite recipe is 
50% SA (or soy wax)
30% tallow
10% coconut oil
5% shea butter
5% cocoa butter
60/40 KOH/NaOH
half the butters reserved for superfat after the cook, 10% of the total oil weight in glycerine

Probably not a huge difference between them.  Check with whatever soap calculator you are using, and make sure you have at least 50% stearic plus palmitic acid in the profile.  Anything else is optional.


----------



## redhead1226

psfred said:


> That recipe will make a decent shave soap.  I have not used my castor oil containing shave soaps enough to tell if it adds much, but initially the lather wasn't as good with that much castor.
> 
> My personal favorite recipe is
> 50% SA (or soy wax)
> 30% tallow
> 10% coconut oil
> 5% shea butter
> 5% cocoa butter
> 60/40 KOH/NaOH
> half the butters reserved for superfat after the cook, 10% of the total oil weight in glycerine
> 
> Probably not a huge difference between them.  Check with whatever soap calculator you are using, and make sure you have at least 50% stearic plus palmitic acid in the profile.  Anything else is optional.



Interesting, I never thought of using soy wax.  My recipe has 59% combined Palmitic and Stearic and your has 71% which also interests me. Im going to try this with the cocoa butter and see how I like it. I appreciate your help and Ill see how it is without the castor.  Ill report back! lol


----------



## psfred

71% may be too high.  I'll be working on those soaps when I get done with my current cake of Williams.


----------



## TFriedman

psfred said:


> That recipe will make a decent shave soap.  I have not used my castor oil containing shave soaps enough to tell if it adds much, but initially the lather wasn't as good with that much castor.
> 
> My personal favorite recipe is
> 50% SA (or soy wax)
> 30% tallow
> 10% coconut oil
> 5% shea butter
> 5% cocoa butter
> 60/40 KOH/NaOH
> half the butters reserved for superfat after the cook, 10% of the total oil weight in glycerine
> 
> Probably not a huge difference between them.  Check with whatever soap calculator you are using, and make sure you have at least 50% stearic plus palmitic acid in the profile.  Anything else is optional.


Hi.  What is SA?  Thanks.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Stearic acid


----------



## redhead1226

TFriedman said:


> Hi.  What is SA?  Thanks.



Stearic Acid


----------



## Saranac

redhead1226 said:


> Interesting, I never thought of using soy wax.



My formula is about 60% soy wax, and it's my only source of stearic and palmitic acids.  Soy wax is easy to work with and the batter can be CPed with no trouble.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Although CP gives no option of selecting the oils which remain after the cook


----------



## redhead1226

Saranac said:


> My formula is about 60% soy wax, and it's my only source of stearic and palmitic acids.  Soy wax is easy to work with and the batter can be CPed with no trouble.



Wow! Nice info, I would like to try that. I have a para-soy blend of wax will that work? Do you know the amount of palmitic and Stearic in yours?


----------



## psfred

Fully hydrogenated soy oil (soy wax 148 I think, usually) is stearic only triglyceride.  It can be CP, but you have to work pretty hot as the soy wax has a fairly high  melting point.  Doesn't matter if there is palmitic acid in there, either works.

If you use soy wax you need less glycerine.  I hot process it anyway, it's faster and I don't need a mold, just roll the finished soap in freezer paper to the right size.


----------



## redhead1226

redhead1226 said:


> Wow! Nice info, I would like to try that. I have a para-soy blend of wax will that work? Do you know the amount of palmitic and Stearic in yours?



After further research Soy does not have enough Palmitic and Stearic as far as I see. Am I missing something?


----------



## redhead1226

psfred said:


> Fully hydrogenated soy oil (soy wax 148 I think, usually) is stearic only triglyceride.  It can be CP, but you have to work pretty hot as the soy wax has a fairly high  melting point.  Doesn't matter if there is palmitic acid in there, either works.
> 
> If you use soy wax you need less glycerine.  I hot process it anyway, it's faster and I don't need a mold, just roll the finished soap in freezer paper to the right size.




I like HP for a shaving soap as I can Superfat after the cook which I think is very necessary in a shave soap.  Tell me about the skin feel you are experiencing. Thanks!


----------



## psfred

Soy oil is not the same as soy wax -- soy wax is hydrogenated soy oil, all the fatty acids are converted to stearic (C18 saturated) in fully hydrogenated versions.  No palmitic at all, soy oil is oleic, linoleic, and stearic I think.

I add some cocoa butter and shea butter as superfat, leaves a great skin feel.  Also made bath soap for my Mom (who is 94) with said butters, works great for her too.  I've been using 5% superfat, may reduce that to 3% and see what happens, that's what I like in bath soap, but it may be a little drying as shaving soap.


----------



## Saranac

redhead1226 said:


> Wow! Nice info, I would like to try that. I have a para-soy blend of wax will that work?



I wouldn't use a para-soy blend.  I buy soy wax from Natures Garden that is* 100% soy*.



psfred said:


> Fully hydrogenated soy oil . . . can be CP, but you have to work pretty hot as the soy wax has a fairly high  melting point.  Doesn't matter if there is palmitic acid in there, either works . . . I hot process it anyway, it's faster and I don't need a mold, just roll the finished soap in freezer paper to the right size.



I find soy wax is easily CPed between 120-130F.  I hand stir and have trace within 15-20 minutes.  I pour into a lined PVC pipe and it gets quite warm--and fast.  If I make the soap in the morning, I can have it un-molded, cut, and in tins by bed-time.



redhead1226 said:


> After further research Soy does not have enough Palmitic and Stearic as far as I see. Am I missing something?



What soy wax are you looking at?  As long as it's hard/brittle at room temperature, it should have plenty of stearic/palmitic.


----------



## redhead1226

Saranac said:


> In the long run, neither does HP .  For my CP shave soap with soy wax, I SF with something unsaponifiable, like jojoba or lanolin.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't use a para-soy blend.  I buy soy wax from Natures Garden that is* 100% soy*.
> 
> 
> 
> I find soy wax is easily CPed between 120-130F.  I hand stir and have trace within 15-20 minutes.  I pour into a lined PVC pipe and it gets quite warm--and fast.  If I make the soap in the morning, I can have it un-molded, cut, and in tins by bed-time.
> 
> 
> 
> What soy wax are you looking at?  As long as it's hard/brittle at room temperature, it should have plenty of stearic/palmitic.
> 
> Got ya! Thank you. Im going to order the soy wax and experiment myself thank you for your assistance.
> 
> As I noted above, I SF with something non-saponifiable.  I really like jojoba.


----------



## DeeAnna

It's a misnomer to "superfat with something non-saponifiable." If you want to use lanolin or jojoba or other ingredient that has a low saponification value versus a fat that has a higher sap value, then by all means do so. But superfat is saponifiable *FAT* by definition, whether it's fat from lanolin or fat from lard. Unsaponifiable materials, such as the waxes and esters in jojoba, lanolin, etc., certainly can bring something to the party, but they're not superfat.


----------



## Saranac

It seems like I was once again put in my place, and as a result, I've edited my earlier post.



			
				redhead1226 said:
			
		

> Got ya! Thank you. Im going to order the soy wax and experiment myself thank you for your assistance.



Don't place that order or start experimenting yet!  There's a good possibility that I've led you down the wrong path; better wait for the experts to weigh in on this subject.


----------



## psfred

Pure soy wax only, stuff for candles has paraffin in it, which won't be very nice in soap......


----------



## DeeAnna

My earlier post about superfat was not intended to "put people in their place," but I missed the mark and realize I have offended Saranac. Please accept my apologies, Saranac. 

The reason why I said what I did about superfat is to keep new soapers from being confused. My goal was to clarify the meaning, not to offend or put anyone down.


----------



## commoncenz

Ahhhh, I've finally finished reading this thread. It has been too long since I last visited this forum. A thread like this is a good reminder of why I like it here so much. The sharing of ideas and experiments. The sheer amount of creativity and diversity of thought. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this discussion; which has kept me locked in and reading until the wee hours of the morning for the last two days. Now, to review my notes, clear my head and attempt to make the shave soap that I've been promising I'd make for my cousin's husband for the last two years.


----------



## redhead1226

commoncenz said:


> Ahhhh, I've finally finished reading this thread. It has been too long since I last visited this forum. A thread like this is a good reminder of why I like it here so much. The sharing of ideas and experiments. The sheer amount of creativity and diversity of thought. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this discussion; which has kept me locked in and reading until the wee hours of the morning for the last two days. Now, to review my notes, clear my head and attempt to make the shave soap that I've been promising I'd make for my cousin's husband for the last two years.




I did the same as you a few months back. I ended up making 6 different recipes I came up with. I liked 3 of them. And then narrowed it down to just 1. Its really about preference. Its the concept and the ingredients that kept me changing it up. And yes I agree that this is exactly why I love this group so much. Good luck and have fun!


----------



## psfred

This is indeed a great forum, lots of good advice, a huge base of experience and expertise, and very nice people.  

Good luck with the shaving soap!


----------



## commoncenz

Well, that was interesting. I didn't get soap on a stick. In fact, everything went pretty much as Lee described it in his blog. I got mashed potatoes almost instantly. Kept stirring and that became apple sauce. I let it cook for about half an hour only because there was no zap at that time. By that time, the apple sauce had thickened up a bit. Added the lanolin and shea superfat and it loosened up a little. Stirred for a little while longer and then scooped it into a 3" PVC pipe. The soap is now in the freezer so I can cut pucks later and let cure in my soap room.
One thing I was thinking as I scooped it into the PVC was ... Why not cut the PVC into individual puck molds? For example, say you have 24" of 3" PVC. You could use a miter saw and cut that down to about 23 individual puck molds that are each 1" thick. That way, you could just scoop your shaving soap into each individual mold, but, unmolding would be a lot simpler/easier. I may try that next time I make this soap. Which won't be until I've given away the soaps I've made and gotten feedback.


----------



## LBussy

Fantastic!

I think people use a single mold because you only have to fill it once, and that the cut pieces are the ones that are "even."  The ends are often the pieces that are kept for use by the soaper since they are quite a bit more rustic in appearance.


----------



## commoncenz

LBussy said:


> Fantastic!
> 
> I think people use a single mold because you only have to fill it once, and that the cut pieces are the ones that are "even."  The ends are often the pieces that are kept for use by the soaper since they are quite a bit more rustic in appearance.


I didn't think about the "rustic" v. "finished" look aspect. That makes a lot of sense.


----------



## lenarenee

commoncenz said:


> Ahhhh, I've finally finished reading this thread. It has been too long since I last visited this forum. A thread like this is a good reminder of why I like it here so much. The sharing of ideas and experiments. The sheer amount of creativity and diversity of thought. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this discussion; which has kept me locked in and reading until the wee hours of the morning for the last two days. Now, to review my notes, clear my head and attempt to make the shave soap that I've been promising I'd make for my cousin's husband for the last two years.



It's good to see you back!!


----------



## psfred

You can also get individual containers and portion it out that way if you want.  I don't bother with a mold since my soap is just for me at the moment, I pile it on a sheet of freezer paper and roughly roll it into a cylinder.  As it cools off I mash into the shape I want and then cut into pieces, they don't need to be particularly even for me.  Freezer paper wrapped around a tuna can works too.

Since I use 60% KOH the soap never gets really hard.

To sell it I would use a mold just so they all weigh very close to the same.


----------



## commoncenz

OK, so I unmolded and cut this soap today. Keep in mind that I am a novice/amateur when it comes to loading a shave brush. (i.e. there was a lot more lather than this, but I had trouble getting it all on the brush). This soap absolutely exploded as soon as I started swirling the slightly damp brush on it. I let it sit for 45 minutes (OK, I got a phone call and forgot about it) and it still held the lather. The pic of the lathered brush was AFTER the phone call. Since it was loaded, I HAD to shave with it ... Fantastic! I'll never buy that canned crap again. Nor will I settle for using one of my body soap bars as a substitute. I'm so taken with the entire process that I joined that other forum you guys talk about. lol


----------



## psfred

Proper shaving soap is a revelation, that's for sure!  Now you will have to try a dozen different scents and four or five formulas and.....  you will have enough shaving soap for a lifetime!  I do, and I've just started!


----------



## slickjim

I either need to buy one of those tiny scales that measure small grams or start doing bigger batches. 

I did a 200g of oils last week and tried to do the 3% of essential oils. This was supposed to be 6 grams. I used a small measuring cup i use for my beard oil. It's 100 ml and I filled it with around 10ml of essentials oils. The scale didn't move from 0  

Also, I put my glycerin in the lye water and it went yellow..a bit like pee. I hope that this is ok


----------



## psfred

Get the scale, you won't regret it.

The yellow color is fine, but I put the glycerine in later for that reason.  I like nice white soap.

I also use about four drops of FO in 200 grams of soap, but that's me.  

Hope it shaves nicely.


----------



## redhead1226

slickjim said:


> I either need to buy one of those tiny scales that measure small grams or start doing bigger batches.
> 
> I did a 200g of oils last week and tried to do the 3% of essential oils. This was supposed to be 6 grams. I used a small measuring cup i use for my beard oil. It's 100 ml and I filled it with around 10ml of essentials oils. The scale didn't move from 0
> 
> Also, I put my glycerin in the lye water and it went yellow..a bit like pee. I hope that this is ok



Hi Slick! Your scale does not have different modes?  I have ounces, grams, pounds, kg, etc.  I do however have a smaller
gram scale for measuring essential oils as my larger scale doesn't recognize such small amounts.  If you can, make a small investment as a good capable scale is invaluable in soap making.  Also, I add my glycerin at the end. Im not positive if it matters frankly.


----------



## slickjim

Yes, I guess I have the same issue with not recognizing the small amounts. I will get one with smaller gram scale then. Thanks! 

psfred, aren't 4 drops to little or FO is stronger that EO? I have bought some - tobacco, leather, tonka and some mixtures but I've yet to try them.


----------



## psfred

Four drops is perfect for me, I just want a hint of scent in my shaving soap.

I think I have a fairly sensitive sense of smell, too, though.  I find many commercial soaps to be grossly over-scented.


----------



## LBussy

@psfred can smell a drop of FO in a 5# batch.  

Each FO should have usage guidelines.  For instance, the almond FO I use recommends .6 - .8 oz per pound of oils (3.75-5%).  Since this is up on mah face, I go with 3%.


----------



## Escott752

Love that ladder! Great job. Thanks for sharing


----------



## slickjim

View media item 1213












IMG_20180708_155237



__ slickjim
__ Jul 9, 2018


















IMG_20180708_155308



__ slickjim
__ Jul 9, 2018





View media item 1210
So, I finally lathered the last batch in question:
Stearic Acid
Coconut Oil
Lard
Castor Oil
Shea Butter
Lanolin
Glycerin
EO: Orange, Grapefruit & Lavender

I shaved my armpits and the cheek line (I have a beard) and decided not to use to after shave.
Didn't notice any irritation afterwards. Pretty happy!

My bowl is too small and I still can't make a decent lather.

PS. Maybe not the best way to upload photos?


----------



## LBussy

I recommend the captains choice bowls. They are a nice size and have a textured bottom.


----------



## psfred

Lol, if it is Drakkar or Fierce I probably could smell a drop in 5#, sadly.   All the "new" Old Spice scents are so strong I can't stand to handle the sealed containers....

As far as lathering goes, if you are not shaving your whole face and hence cannot face lather, try lathering on one hand, adding water by dipping the brush tip into a basin and see how the soap works.  It will improve with cure over three or four weeks.  The key is getting enough water in it to make it very slick.

It does look good though!  I'm back to using my own shaving soaps after finishing the "3017 a puck of Williams" challenge on B&B -- took 5 months.  They are much nicer feeling, but I need to work on getting them slick.  Doesn't help that one of the brushes I'm using tends to eat the lather between passes for some reason.


----------



## slickjim

*LBussy* that's a very interesting bowl..especially the bottom. Does it help with the lather being like that? 

*psfred* I will try the hand thingie...looks promising. Since, I directly started shaving with my own soaps last month I bought some commercial ones. Proraso and the infamous Arko. If I leave one of them open, my whole bathroom starts to smell. 

I don't know how much of EO I ended up using...around 10 ml is my guess. It gave a decent aroma while swiveling the brush and that was about it.


----------



## LBussy

I think the texture helps, yes.   It’s also one of the larger bowls available.   There’s more than a few folks that just steal a bowl out of the kitchen, but I do prefer this one.


----------



## soap1daze

Going back to the original recipe page 1 by songwind there is no water amount used and I don't see a percentage.  The reason I ask is because the recipe in HOmemade Shaving Soap blog that he bases his recipe on shows a great deal of water and I don't know why that would be so high.  Ideas?  

Stearic Acid - 8 1/3 oz.
Aqua - 8 oz.
Coconut Oil - 7 2/3 oz.
Potassium Hydroxide - 3 1/2 oz


----------



## LBussy

Use whatever you are comfortable with really.  I use 33% of oil weight, which is a 40% lye concentration.


----------



## slickjim

Initially, I used 38% of oil weight. Last batches are with 33% lye concentration, which is a bit less water.

You can experiment. Actually, since I am still a newbie I wonder what are the differences? Harder soap? When I used 38% of oil weight I used different ratios for the other components as well, so don't have a direct comparison.


----------



## soap1daze

DeeAna do you know why the water amount is so high for the first recipe discussed in the homeade shaving soap blog?  Way more than 40% water and I'm wondering why.

Another recipe (3rd) with a large amount of water.  Why is so much water needed for  these type of shave soaps?  Does working with stearic acid require more water?



alaskazimm said:


> I finally got around to making a batch of the shaving soap listed in the first post. It was also my first experiment with HP.
> 
> 218 gr coconut
> 236 gr stearic acid
> 98 gr KOH
> 230 gr water
> 3 Tbsp glycerin
> 
> I cooked it 20 min over a (makeshift) double boiler at around 160F and got no zap on the zap-test. So far it all seemed like it was going according to this thread. Unmolded it after an overnight sit and cut it into bars and it still looks wet inside. I did a test lather with one piece and it produced a wonderful lather.
> Did this separate into the coconut and stearic components? Does this simply need to dry out some more or does it need to go back into the cooker for longer?
> 
> Thanks for you help.
> 
> View attachment 3773
> 
> 
> View attachment 3774


----------



## LBussy

You are ignoring other replies, like the one I posted.   You can use as much or as little water as you like.   More makes it a little easier to work.  It also means that you either need to open cure the soap when you are done or have a very soft product.   I use less water and it goes directly into a sealed tin.


----------



## soap1daze

Thank you.   I am using containers also for these experiments.   I thought you/they were talking about the recipes with all the oil and butters.  

I'm interested in trying the 1st recipe with majority of the stearic acid and only coconut oil.  All the recipes I've seen for this recipe call for much more water than I'm use to using as I'm a 1.4:1 soap maker.   I think it depends on which recipe one is interested in.  



LBussy said:


> You are ignoring other replies, like the one I posted.   You can use as much or as little water as you like.   More makes it a little easier to work.  It also means that you either need to open cure the soap when you are done or have a very soft product.   I use less water and it goes directly into a sealed tin.


----------



## LBussy

And I'm responding to that and telling you it does not.  Use what you are familiar/comfortable with and you should expect similar results.


----------



## itchyandscratchy

songwind said:


> This weekend I made my first shaving soap. It was a hot process soap, and used a recipe posted by a fellow forum poster at one of the wet shaving forums.
> 
> I did a small batch (8 oz). 52% stearic acid, 48% coconut oil, saponified with KOH. I added 1.5 tablespoons of glycerin after it was done cooking, along with 1/4 oz of essential oils: 2/3 lemon & bergamot, 1/3 rosemary.
> 
> The soap making went fine, with no surprises aside from the soap never becoming truly translucent like my olive oil soap did. It passed the zap test, though.
> 
> I used it to shave tonight, and it was lovely. Nice and slick, and there was no skin reaction to the EOs. My face feels very nice afterward.
> 
> The scent turned out too lemony, and the rosemary was lost underneath. Next time, more basenotes and less lemon.
> 
> Just after pouring:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 24 hours to set:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whipped up a great lather:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was very stable. This is after sitting 15 minutes while I showered and brushed my teeth:


Looks delicious. Lovely and creamy


----------



## psfred

Hot process soap can be very dry if you don't have enough water and much evaporates while you are cooking it.  It will turn out fine, but will be hard to manage when finished.  Packed crumbs and chunks.

More water (38% is a good starting place) will give you soap fluid enough after the cook to get scent and glycerine mixed in nicely and soft enough to press into your tins.  100% KOH soap is never going to get really hard anyway, but it's nice to be able to mix and mold it easily.

Adjust as needed to get it to handle the way you like.


----------



## TheWetShavingBarber

Where can I find this recipe?  I'm new to shaving soap making and would love to try this since it seems to deliver great results - WSB




songwind said:


> This weekend I made my first shaving soap. It was a hot process soap, and used a recipe posted by a fellow forum poster at one of the wet shaving forums.
> 
> I did a small batch (8 oz). 52% stearic acid, 48% coconut oil, saponified with KOH. I added 1.5 tablespoons of glycerin after it was done cooking, along with 1/4 oz of essential oils: 2/3 lemon & bergamot, 1/3 rosemary.
> 
> The soap making went fine, with no surprises aside from the soap never becoming truly translucent like my olive oil soap did. It passed the zap test, though.
> 
> I used it to shave tonight, and it was lovely. Nice and slick, and there was no skin reaction to the EOs. My face feels very nice afterward.
> 
> The scent turned out too lemony, and the rosemary was lost underneath. Next time, more basenotes and less lemon.
> 
> Just after pouring:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 24 hours to set:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whipped up a great lather:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was very stable. This is after sitting 15 minutes while I showered and brushed my teeth:


----------



## shunt2011

TheWetShavingBarber said:


> Where can I find this recipe?  I'm new to shaving soap making and would love to try this since it seems to deliver great results - WSB



Hello and Welcome.  That is the recipe in your quote.  Depending on what size batch you want to make, you'll enter the Stearic, CO and other oils into a lye calculator to get your KOH & Liquid amount.   I highly recommend taking time to read as much of this thread as possible (I've been through it a time or tw0).  So much information.  You'll be glad you did.


----------



## bristles

Thanks in most part to this legendary thread, I made some soap! (second attempt) I used a lot of oat milk - the lye solution got really goopy and a bit clumpy, I will make sure to use a more thinned down oat milk in future.
Anyone know a scent that pairs well with oatmeal?
I scented this batch with marzipan, will be giving out all these samples to get some feedback.


----------



## LBussy

Well, something sweet-ish maybe?  Brown sugar cinnamon comes to mind.  I’m sure someone makes a FO that smells like breakfast.


----------



## bristles

LBussy said:


> Well, something sweet-ish maybe?  Brown sugar cinnamon comes to mind.  I’m sure someone makes a FO that smells like breakfast.


Thank you for your amazing guide Lee.
I have a question about curing, my soap was soft upon placing it in tins, I then let it 'cure' for a day with the lids off. Now it has hardened considerably, at what point do you know the soap is cured? 
I cooked for an hour and used 80% KOH, 33% lye solution, 15% glycerin. So I thought it would need a few days longer before it firms up.


----------



## psfred

It will never get hard like bar soap, but it does firm up quite a bit over a week or so.  Shaving soap doesn't need a long cure, but four weeks will do whatever is going to happen.  I don't find much difference in most of my recipes after a week except for the high castor experiment.  That one lathered better after a month or two, but never all that well.


----------



## LBussy

I’m glad you got something out of the writeup.  I’m with @psfred ... it will always be pliable.  After a week I think it’s 90% cured with only marginal improvement after that.


----------



## psfred

And it will make excellent lather.  My shaving soap is better than anything except maybe Haslinger that I have tried.  To say nothing of very much cheaper!

I've made several variations, Stearic acid with tallow, stearic acid with lard, and soy wax with tallow, all containing 10% coconut oil and 5% each either lanolin or shea and cocoa butter.  The soy wax soap is harder but lathers just as well, and the tallow ones are marginally better I think.  All of them give me very very good shaves.


----------



## E Birbal

Hi Everyone!

I'm a total noob here and a total noob at soap making as well. In fact, I've never made soap in my life before, so pardon me for asking what might be a really really silly question.

I'd like to try the @LBussy recipe but I'd like the final product to have a cream/toothpaste like consistency because I prefer to lather on my face than in the bowl. Can someone please guide me how I can alter the recipe to get the desired toothpaste like consistency? Is it just a matter of having a larger percentage of water or is it more complex than that?

Thanks!


----------



## DeeAnna

soap1daze said:


> ...All the recipes I've seen for this recipe call for much more water than I'm use to using as I'm a 1.4:1 soap maker. ...



Listen to what the others are saying. I will add --

You sound like you only have made soap with a cold process method. I normally do too, but I make _this _type of soap with a hot process method. It's hard to use a CP method if you want to use a lot of stearic acid.

Hot process methods usually use more water in proportion to alkali than cold process methods, because you want to allow for more water evaporation from the soap while it's being cooked and you want a somewhat softer texture for ease of stirring and handling. A lye concentration (_not _"water as % of oils") of 25% is typical for HP. But you can use whatever you like as long as it works for you.

A side note -- A 1.4:1 water:lye ratio is a 42% lye concentration. This lye concentration will work fine for many soap recipes, but it might make your soaping more difficult when using recipes that have a very high % of coconut oil, palm kernel oil, or babassu oil. Many of us get better results using a lower lye concentration (higher water:lye ratio) with this type of recipe -- less chance of volcanoes, cracking, or simple overheating in the mold. In other words, it's good to be willing to adjust the water:lye ratio to fit the circumstances.



E Birbal said:


> ...I'd like the final product to have a cream/toothpaste like consistency because I prefer to lather on my face than in the bowl...



This type of soap doesn't ever get hard, but it doesn't have a toothpaste texture either if you follow Lee's recipe exactly. To encourage a softer texture, I'd first use a 25% lye concentration and don't cook the soap for hours -- just until it's zap free -- to minimize evaporation.

Also a little glycerin stirred or kneaded into the soap after it's cooked will help it stay softer -- you will have to experiment with that to see how much will create the right texture. Keep the soap in a covered container, not in the open air, to prevent water evaporation over time.

What you may find is the texture of this type of shave soap won't exactly have a toothpaste texture because of the nature of KOH soap, but it can certainly have a softer texture.


----------



## psfred

More water will indeed make it softer, but if you want it to be like shaving cream in a tube, you will have to prevent it from drying out somehow (which is why shaving cream is usually in a tube).  If you handle it like a liquid soap you can use a pump dispenser, too -- this should work as it's 100% KOH lye.

The other alternative is to make a shave stick out of it.  Get a "lotion tube" twistup dispenser, or save a deodorant container and simply pack the soap into it.  To shave, just rub some soap on your face and work up the lather like usual.  Might even work without a brush, but I perfer a brush myself.


----------



## LBussy

This will work fine for face lather - it’s how I use it when traveling and I don’t have my scuttle or bowl.   If you mean just spreading it in your face and working a lather with your hands however you may be disappointed.  A brush would be required to get a proper lather.


----------



## DeeAnna

I don't think a KOH soap with this much stearic and palmitic will ever be pourable or pumpable product. Shave soap is basically a "cream" soap. Even with a fair bit of water, the soap will want to be a stringy or goopy gel. Oh, it might stay a pourable liquid for a few days or so, but it will eventually return to a goopy texture.

I was suggesting glycerin to help the soap stay softer, because glycerin doesn't evaporate like water does. But you'd want to experiment with the amount of glycerin to make sure you don't reduce the lather quality or other desirable qualities of the soap.


----------



## E Birbal

Thanks everyone for your help!



DeeAnna said:


> To encourage a softer texture, I'd first use a 25% lye concentration and don't cook the soap for hours



Sorry for a follow up noob question, but I'm assuming you mean achieve 25% lye concentration by increasing the amount of water and not by reducing the amount of KOH which would otherwise leave un-saponified fat in the mixture?



psfred said:


> you will have to prevent it from drying out somehow



While don't have tubes, I can store them in air tight containers to prevent water evaporation.



LBussy said:


> A brush would be required to get a proper lather



Yes, I'd be using a brush.

I just want something that I can scoop a bit with my finger so I can smear it on my face and build up a lather with a brush. 

I've seen plenty of shaving cream ingredients that list Aqua as the fist item in the ingredients followed by Stearic acid, which I believe are usually listed in the decreasing order of their concentration in the final product, so I guess creams are just soaps with copious amounts of water (30-35% of the final product being water but I could be wrong on that front.


----------



## LBussy

The ingredients are listed in descending order - or they should be.  I think the creams in a tube you reference are often whipped a bit to keep that texture.  There's a thread here about making a cream soap which shows a cream soap and a shaving soap have some similarities.  I've often thought the process could be used here to make a cream.

Really though if you already have a brush, why the desire/need to have a cream?  Seems like it would be an easy change to your routine to load the brush on the soap.  What am I missing?


----------



## DeeAnna

E Birbal said:


> ...I'm assuming you mean achieve 25% lye concentration by increasing the amount of water and not by reducing the amount of KOH...



Yes. Varying lye concentration only changes the water weight. It changes nothing else.

If you left the lye concentration at, say, 25% and then increased the superfat, it is true your alkali weight would be reduced but you would also see the water weight would also be reduced to keep the lye concentration at 25% based on the new, reduced alkali weight.

For those who might be wondering what we're talking about, here is more info --

When designing a soap recipe, you first decide what fats you want, the percentages (or weights) of each fat, and the total weight of fat. You also decide what lye discount (often called superfat) that you want in the recipe.

Next, you calculate the amount of alkali (KOH, NaOH, etc.) For a given blend and weight of fats, the alkali weight can be altered by changing the superfat. With all other things staying the same, this is what changing the lye discount (superfat) does --

More superfat --> less alkali.
Less superfat --> more alkali.

Once the fat blend, fat weight, and superfat are set and your alkali weight is calculated, the last thing to calculate is the water weight. You alter the water weight by changing the lye concentration (or water:lye ratio).

Higher lye concentration --> less water in proportion to the alkali.
Lower lye concentration --> more water in proportion to the alkali.

Water is the last thing calculated once the other factors are set regarding fats and alkali. Hope this helps.


----------



## psfred

Just as easy to use a shaving soap as a stick rather than a cream -- I keep several of mine in twist-up tubes.  Wet your face, rub the soap stick on it for a few seconds, lather with a wet brush.  Less messy that creams, too.

I suspect creams are both whipped and contain more glycerine (on in the case of some commercial ones, triethanolamine).  

Give it a try, soapmaking is pretty cheap.


----------



## E Birbal

LBussy said:


> What am I missing?



Nothing really. I ever only used commercial shaving creams from tubes and canned foams in my life. Hence the (possibly unwarranted) inclination to stick to the familiar. I have nothing against the hard soap per se. Thanks for the links, looks like exactly the thing I was looking for - especially where the OP added boiling water at the end to get the desired consistency.



DeeAnna said:


> here is more info



Thanks, that additional info helps a lot in my understanding.



psfred said:


> Give it a try, soapmaking is pretty cheap



Yeah, I've already placed an order for the ingredients and the wait is killing me already, although as a hobby, I get to do fun stuff only on weekends


----------



## E Birbal

So after several misses, I managed to create my first shaving soap based on Songwind's formula. I did modify the original formula a bit by adding unrefined Shae butter to the mix. I also added a bit of Potassium citrate to deal with the extreme hard water in my area.

The end result was awesome to say the least. Its was better than any of the commercial products I have used thus far. I've also dropped the idea of making it into a cream because the soap is soft and easy enough to load on the brush which I can then use to face lather just as easily as a cream.

I wanted to use Tetrasodium EDTA as a chelating agent, but couldn't as I am unable to source it easily where I live and used Potassium citrate in the meantime by making it as described here: https://classicbells.com/soap/citricAcid.html (Thanks @DeeAnna your website is very informative!)

I've read that its possible to make Tetrasodium EDTA using Disodium EDTA and NaOH, both of which are readily available to me. Does anyone know how I can make Tetrasodium EDTA using these (assuming it is easy enough to do it in my kitchen)? Google search didn't give me anything useful.

Thanks again for the awesome recipe and the tips in making this this a huge success for me!


----------



## LBussy

Who is teasing me?  I saw that there was activity on this thread yesterday, I logged in and nothing.  People are playing with my emotions!


----------



## E Birbal

LBussy said:


> Who is teasing me?



Possibly me. I had made a post but its held up in moderation probably because I am new here and it had a link to DeeAnna's website. Hoping the mods get a chance to approve it soon. Just to release some suspense, I made the soap and it lives up to its reputation every bit - I did a fun experiment and it seems, it takes only 5 swirls of the brush on the soap to load it up with enough soap to produce copious amounts of lather!


----------



## LBussy

Great to hear that it went well for you!  And welcome!


----------



## psfred

Just dissolve the disodium EDTA in your lye (it's not very soluble in plain water).  EDTA in the acid form can be used exactly the same way, just remember it will consume a little bit of lye.


----------



## E Birbal

@psfred But in this case, my lye is KOH based.

The closest I've got to making Tetrasodium myself is this:

372.24 g Disodium EDTA + 80.0 g NaOH gives 380.17g Tetrasodium EDTA (plus some extra water)

Saw this on chemistcorner website but I'm avoiding putting a direct link as I'm a newbie here and it may put this post under moderation. 

Although I'm not sure if this is formula accurate.


----------



## psfred

Doesn't matter if it's KOH or NaOH, the disodium salt will dissolve and that's what you need.  In any case, the potassium ions will displace the sodium when it's dissolved.  Far easier than attempting to make tetrasodium EDTA just to dissolve it in a strong lye solution.  The amount of lye consumed is insignificant at the level EDTA is normally used.


----------



## TimMcG

After reading all 60 pages, I'm about to embark on my first shaving soap. (Long time wet shaver) I'm going with tallow, lanolin and shea as those are all elements of the various soaps I like. However, I'm now slightly confused by @LBussy's post on his Silver Fox Crafts site regarding stearic acid. If I read it right, I shouldn't be using plan stearic in the calculations, but the combination of components instead. In his example, instead of 45% stearic, I'd use 

26.55% Palmitic Acid
18% Stearic Acid
0.45% Myristic Acid
Did I get this right?


----------



## psfred

I  believe that's correct, but I'm sure Lee will chime in.  I don't worry about it excessively, since I plan 5% superfat anyway.  

You can also use fully hydrogenated soybean oil (soy wax 415 I think) which is easier to calculate.  Soap will be somewhat harder with the soy wax but shaves just as nicely.


----------



## LBussy

Good morning.  

I guess the takeaway is to check the CAS numbers for the product you are purchasing and figure things accordingly.  Before I figured that out I certainly made good soap.  With the wiggle-room that the super fat percentages give, you’re likely safe to use the easier method as @psfred says.  I’m just one of those folks that can’t pass up a good opportunity to make it complicated.  

Different suppliers have been knows to have different products under the same name.  It was just a very long-winded way of saying “caveat emptor.”


----------



## E Birbal

*Just 5 swirls* of the brush on the soap and this is the amount of lather it produced in under a minute. Photo taken about 15 minutes after making the lather. The bowl is approximately 5.5 inches (140 mm) at the top. It probably would have made more lather if I kept going, but I just gave up after a bit...


----------



## psfred

Yup.  It will shave as well as it lathers, too.  I've not made the high coconut oil version, mine is tallow, SA, 10% CO and a few other things, but it lathers the same way.  A few swirls on the soap with a wet brush and you get more than enough slick lather for a three pass shave.

Only drawback is that the soap lasts just about forever....


----------



## LBussy

That SA and tallow is what makes it dense, only a little bit (comparatively) of CO lifts it up into a nice later.  Any more in my opinion just gets too airy.

Looks great!  That's called "lather porn."


----------



## E Birbal

I was thinking exactly the same about the longivity. At the going rate, my first batch which was only 100 gm oils, is going to last me a lifetime. 

I'm thinking in future I should probably divide bigger batches into 100 gm containers with different scents or other minor variations such as menthol so I can keep those in rotation and not get bored.

Any recommendations for scents that have worked for you and where can I possibly buy them ?

Many thanks and my gratitude to everyone who made it possible! I'm so happy


----------



## LBussy

That's the issue with experimenting with shaving soap batches - you end up with a lifetime supply in a real hurry!  I started making mine in those small plastic lidded containers split up in 100g each to try different things.  Float them in a pot of boiling water to cook. The water loss is a lot less, but you can make up for that by using less and/or letting them "cure" lidless for a while.

Scents ... I'm sort of a grumpy old man when it comes to that.  I love my almont scents since those typefy the Italian soaps I had hoped to emulate.  DeeAnna had a lavender mint EO (I think it was) mix that she posted that was very nice.  She also shared a sample that had Nature's Garden "Cracklin' Birch" FO which was likewise masculine but not an assault on the senses.  I'm not sure on the mix of the lavender one, I can't seem to find the post at the moment.


----------



## TimMcG

Finally made a batch following Lee’s recipe with slightly more glycerin and I did add the Sodium Lactate. It seems to take a lot of water to get a nice lather, but it doesn’t stay on the face very long before it dissipates. Compared to the Stirling soaps I use, it doesn’t have the residual slickness after the first pass with the SR. I felt like I had to relather constantly. 
Looking at Stirling’s ingredients he has tallow first (not 3rd):
Beef Tallow, Stearic Acid, Distilled Water, Castor Oil, Potassium Hydroxide, Vegetable Glycerin, Fragrance Oil, Almond Oil, Shea Butter, Coconut Milk, Lanolin, Sodium Hydroxide, Sodium Lactate

Is there a benefit to using Castor Oil and Almond Oil instead of the Coconut Oil?


----------



## E Birbal

Are you sure you got the KOH quantity right? I had a similar issue with my first batch as well where I hadn't used enough KOH and the saponification didn't occur at all.

Do a palm lather. If your hand feels oily after you wash it off, the oils may not have saponified to produce a rich lather.

So what I did was, I melted the soap again (I had assumed the batch was ruined and had nothing to loose at that point) and kept adding the lye a spoon-ful at a time until the pH paper showed 9ish. Once that was done, I got the proper Vaseline stage and finally the precious "uber lather". You can see my lather pic from a few posts above.


----------



## TimMcG

E Birbal said:


> Are you sure you got the KOH quantity right? I had a similar issue with my first batch as well where I hadn't used enough KOH and the saponification didn't occur at all.
> 
> Do a palm lather. If your hand feels oily after you wash it off, the oils may not have saponified to produce a rich lather.
> 
> So what I did was, I melted the soap again (I had assumed the batch was ruined and had nothing to loose at that point) and kept adding the lye a spoon-ful at a time until the pH paper showed 9ish. Once that was done, I got the proper Vaseline stage and finally the precious "uber lather".


Both soaps used 99.4g of KOH. The only difference I can think of is the extra glycerin. Palm lather was not oily.


----------



## E Birbal

TimMcG said:


> Both soaps used 99.4g of KOH. The only difference I can think of is the extra glycerin. Palm lather was not oily.



If you happen to have some pH paper, check if the pH is 9-10. Can't think of anything else. I'm sure the experts here can sort it out for you. Whatever it is, I'm certain its not Lee's formula that is the issue. And it's probably not the glycerin either. Oils on saponification will produce one-third its weight as glycerin in the soap anyways, so a bit more isn't going to break it.


----------



## LBussy

Well, that's certainly not my experience with this recipe. 

It's difficult to diagnose unless you post the actual numbers for what you did and where you sourced your ingredients.  Additional glycerin would not kill the lather.  It absolutely does require more water than you may be used to - any KOH-only soap seems to be more thirsty.  The good news is, that moisture is an added benefit.

Did you let the soap cure any?  I find it needs at least a week to mellow.


----------



## psfred

You should get great lather with that recipe, so something is wrong.  Not the glycerin unless you used a huge amount, in which case you will get mush and not semi-hard soap.

Castor will act very much like coconut oil in shaving soap.  I don't think it improves the soap much, but am still in need of verifying that by using the two I made some more.

Unless you goofed up the weight on the lye or the fats and ended up with a very high superfat, I don't know why you are not getting good lather.  I've not make this particular soap, but have made tallow/SA/coconut soaps or lard/SA/coconut soaps, and they all lather up very nicely.


----------



## E Birbal

So I made another batch of the soap but ended up with waaaaaaay to much fragrance which has become an assault on the senses. So much that the soap feels oily to the touch and I don't even like the scent.

Short of throwing it away or leaving it to dry in open for several months, is there a way I can get rid  of that scent in a reasonable time?


----------



## psfred

You can make another identical batch with no scent and mix the old one in and melt them together, but that will just get you twice as much soap with a scent you don't care for.

The scent will definitely mellow in a couple months with the soap unwrapped, but it may still be too strong.

Otherwise you are pretty much stuck with it, there is no way that I know of to remove fragrance from soap once you stir it in.


----------



## E Birbal

Yeah, I definitely don't want more of the same scent soap. I guess I'll just let it dry in the open in the hopes its mellows significantly or the scent grows on me. Either that or I'll just dump it and make a new batch.


----------



## Misschief

*bump*
I love this thread.

Even though I've made several batches of shave soap for friends and family, using Songwind's awesome recipe, I've decided it's time to "play". I've re-read, for at least the third time, possibly the fourth time, this entire thread and this time, I've made notes, notes, and more notes.

I've tried a batch with menthol (all test batches are 250 grams of oil). I've tried adding a touch of bentonite clay to another batch (still not sure of that one). Today's batch is made with dual lye and soy wax instead of stearic acid and the addition of silk powder (Wow, the dregs left in the crockpot exploded into foam when the brush touched it!). 

Now, I need to find willing testers who will give me honest feedback. 

This is the one with a bit of bentonite clay in it (1/2 tsp. in 250 grams of oil).


----------



## steffamarie

Well, I finally finished reading this beast of a thread - I just want to shout out all those who contributed and say thank you for all your experimenting and critiquing!! I've ordered some KOH and some SA and I think I feel prepared to make my first shave soap! BF is a wet shaver (though not anywhere near hardcore/dedicated - he just enjoys the ritual of it more than anything) and I'm hoping to make something that blows him away. 

I think the recipe I decided on is the vegan not-tallow recipe posted around page 45 or so. 40% SA, 18% CO, 15% PKO, 17% shea, and 7% castor. I'll do 100% KOH and 15% glycerin, with 4% shea and 1% lanolin as a superfat. I'd like to be able to gift this to some of the men in my family. Currently BF is the only wet shaver I know, but my grandpa loves my body soap and praised the lather that was "so nice I could almost shave with it". Well, Grandpa, hopefully I've got something good in store for you!! I'll post back here with results (and hopefully some wonderful lather porn) probably next week.


----------



## Loralei

Okay... I read, read some more, and re-read these and other posts, and mashed all my info together to create what I think I will love.. Here is my recipe::

Avocado oil 5%
Babassu oil 5%
Castor oil 10%
Cocoa butter 5%
Coconut oil 76 deg 20%
Shea butter 15%
Stearic acid 40%

40% sodium hydroxide and 60% potassium hydroxide ; 3:1 water:lye

SF 7%

I used the technique that @DeeAnna described, mostly... melted my oils and SA separately; I'm not as patient as DeeAnna, so I hand stirred and stick blended to emulsion, then started adding SA (couldn't wait for trace, lol!) Cooked in my slow cooker for 20 mins, no zap.. I added 15g of Mahogany FO to 75g of glycerin,  and added to my soap when the temp was almost 120 degrees.. initially,  I put the soap in glass ramikins, but after asking the hubby, I kneaded them into pucks - not the smoothest, but they will have to do (photo attached). I think that I will invest in a silicone mold for future batches.

We don't have a brush here (just found out that hubby's brush wore out.. *stocking stuffer, whee!!*) - I did try the soap out though, and the lather was thick, creamy, and long lasting! And my hands are now as smooth as silk, haha!! I think that I may have a new idea for body soap!


----------



## Relle

Loralei said:


> Avocado oil 5%
> Babassu oil 5%
> Castor oil 10%
> Cocoa butter 10%
> Coconut oil 76 deg 20%
> Shea butter 15%
> Stearic acid 40%


Loralei, your recipe has 105% of oils in it.


----------



## Loralei

Relle said:


> Loralei, your recipe has 105% of oils in it.



Thank you for catching that, @Relle - I edited the cocoa butter to 5% (reading alphabetically, I put in castor oil value 2x)


----------



## Misschief

Loralei said:


> We don't have a brush here (just found out that hubby's brush wore out.. *stocking stuffer, whee!!*) - I did try the soap out though, and the lather was thick, creamy, and long lasting! And my hands are now as smooth as silk, haha!! I think that I may have a new idea for body soap!



Looks good! FWIW London Drugs has some half decent brushes at a decent price (about $9.00).... unless you want to spend $$ on a special brush.


----------



## Loralei

Misschief said:


> Looks good! FWIW London Drugs has some half decent brushes at a decent price (about $9.00).... unless you want to spend $$ on a special brush.


Thank you!! I'm in 108 Mile Ranch, and have to drive to Williams Lake,  where they still don't have a London Drugs, lol!! So, it'll be Shoppers Drug, or Walmart for me... fingers crossed that I can find something decent!


----------



## Misschief

Loralei said:


> Thank you!! I'm in 108 Mile Ranch, and have to drive to Williams Lake,  where they still don't have a London Drugs, lol!! So, it'll be Shoppers Drug, or Walmart for me... fingers crossed that I can find something decent!


I was in Shoppers here last week and they also had a pretty decent shave soap section, including brushes. I don't frequent Walmart so I can't speak for them. (I try to avoid Wmart if at all possible.)


----------



## Loralei

Misschief said:


> I was in Shoppers here last week and they also had a pretty decent shave soap section, including brushes. I don't frequent Walmart so I can't speak for them. (I try to avoid Wmart if at all possible.)



I'll look there first, thank you! And yeah, I avoid Wmart like the plague, but sometimes it's my only choice...


----------



## steffamarie

@Loralei I got a brush off of Amazon for around $9 and it works fantastically. They have lots of options both cheap and expensive on there


----------



## TimMcG

Relle said:


> Loralei, your recipe has 105% of oils in it.


I thought that was a novel way of adding the SF.


----------



## lolaM

I will confess i have yet to make it through the entirety of this Humongous thread but before i attempt to get myself and ingredients together to embark on this little experiment im wondering about quantities. Obviously for a trial batch im not wanting much. Well, even its totally amazeballs i don't want much as im just making for ma wee daddy back home in Scotland who has been a big beardy wet shaver for 30 years.
Having only made feminine products so far i would LOVE to surprise him with this! So what is a good individual "portion" size? I have aluminum tins in various sizes just not sure what to use. And should i fill them full or use a larger size and half fill to make room for the brush get in there and lather up the foam?
or....do you guys prefer a glass container? Am i being a typical chick and overthinking things that men could care less about?


----------



## LBussy

Hi @lolaM !

Glass = bad.  Think about wet, slippery fingers, dropping it .. and poor delicate feet probably just out of the shower!

I use these for packaging:  

https://www.specialtybottle.com/metal-tin-containers/deep-flat-slipcover/8oz-tnf8

And I end up filling them with ~5.3 oz of soap.  They will hold more, but I like to leave a "lip" there so loading is not so messy.   A tin lasts me for a couple-three months easily.

Most folks will not lather on top of a croap, they are too soft for that.  So there's another gift idea, a nice bowl or scuttle!      I have the "rawhide" on on this page:

https://www.captainschoicestore.com/lather-bowls/

Hope that helps!


----------



## psfred

No aluminum, even coated -- it will eventually react with the soap and make grey nasty yuck (and eat holes in the container).  Plastic is fine, so is coated steel.

4 oz is a good size, and 6 oz is fine.  

My shaving soap is hard enough to cut into pucks and wrap, so you can do that too if you want.  I'm sure someone who has been wet shaving for decades will be able to find a container to suit.

Home made shaving soap using one of the variations in this thread is great stuff!

Peter


----------



## lolaM

LBussy said:


> Hi @lolaM !
> 
> Glass = bad.  Think about wet, slippery fingers, dropping it .. and poor delicate feet probably just out of the shower!
> 
> I use these for packaging:
> 
> https://www.specialtybottle.com/metal-tin-containers/deep-flat-slipcover/8oz-tnf8
> 
> And I end up filling them with ~5.3 oz of soap.  They will hold more, but I like to leave a "lip" there so loading is not so messy.   A tin lasts me for a couple-three months easily.
> 
> Most folks will not lather on top of a croap, they are too soft for that.  So there's another gift idea, a nice bowl or scuttle!      I have the "rawhide" on on this page:
> 
> https://www.captainschoicestore.com/lather-bowls/
> 
> Hope that helps!


 Yes! Very helpful guys thanks. I actually have the same type of tins you have shown above. I just assumed they were aluminium but they are in fact coated steel so should be fine to use. 
But I’m loving those lather bowls! Soooo much nicer for gifting. And I also like the idea of making those ‘pucks’ for refills. Cheers for sharing


----------



## LBussy

If you are thinking pucks, a Pringles can makes a nice disposable mold.


----------



## karon L adams

yeah, glass in the bathroom, soapy, sudsy fingers, hard tiles floors, BARE FEET, never ever use glass. always go metal or plastic


----------



## CraftySue

I make the pucks,  in a PVC pipe with a cap on the bottom.


----------



## Jeannie Hinyard

LBussy said:


> Hi @lolaM !
> 
> Glass = bad.  Think about wet, slippery fingers, dropping it .. and poor delicate feet probably just out of the shower!
> 
> I use these for packaging:
> 
> https://www.specialtybottle.com/metal-tin-containers/deep-flat-slipcover/8oz-tnf8
> 
> And I end up filling them with ~5.3 oz of soap.  They will hold more, but I like to leave a "lip" there so loading is not so messy.   A tin lasts me for a couple-three months easily.
> 
> Most folks will not lather on top of a croap, they are too soft for that.  So there's another gift idea, a nice bowl or scuttle!      I have the "rawhide" on on this page:
> 
> https://www.captainschoicestore.com/lather-bowls/
> 
> Hope that helps!



The lather bowls are beautiful, but they can break, too, just like glass.  My son has already broken 3 glass ones and apparently, he didn't like the plastic one I gave him because I found it in his refrigerator with BBQ sauce in it.    I just ordered a stainless steel lather bowl from Wholesale Supplies Plus.  Haven't received it, so I don't know the quality yet, but I dare him to break that one!  Wholesale Supplies Plus also has shaving brushes that are very reasonable.  I haven't tried those either.


----------



## shunt2011

I use these for my shave soap.  Customers seem to like them.  I don't fill them to the top I leave quite a bit of headspace.  I also make pucks to refill them.

https://www.naturesgardencandles.com/8oz-black-low-profile-jar-with-lid


----------



## LBussy

Lather bowls can break, absolutely. Ceramic tends to not break into tiny microscopic shards like regular glass does however. It’s a risk I am willing to take. My issue with stainless steel is that it is too smooth, I like for the bowl to have a little tooth to it.


----------



## Ivanstein

I am a crusty, cantankerous, old and grumpy (yeah, I am truly multi talented) man and shaving soap isn't something I demand to be a luxury item. A great soap should speak for itself and not require a hand carved parrot horn dish with a lid excavated from the tomb of Tutnkamen.

When I make shave soaps, I usually divvy it up in 4 oz portions because that is just about right for 6 months of lathering every morning.

However, it goes in anything I can find. From an old candle jar which has been cleaned out to deli soup containers. My personal favorite is one pound cottage cheese dishes. 4 oz soap in one of those is about perfect for loading a brush without the proto-lather getting all over.

Plus, re-purposed containers don't make you sad if they break and keeps some of that plastic out of the landfill. (And they are CHEAP! I guess add tighta...er...frugal to the list)


----------



## Phlier

Greetings, everyone. I've spent the last couple of months reading up on all things soap making. I've spent a ton of time lurking here as well as the other well known soap information sites. Many thanks to all of you who have shared your knowledge!

So I've settled on a recipe for my first attempt at making a shaving soap. But after doing a lot of reading, I'm a bit confused on putting in the correct information for stearic acid into a soap calculator. I just bought this stearic acid (that is NOT an affiliate link, and I am in no way affiliated with the manufacturer, seller, or Amazon). It will be arriving today, along with all the other things necessary to make my first batch. Can I just use the default "Stearic Acid" information in soapcalc for that particular stearic acid, or do I need to figure out my own values? When I purchased it, I just assumed (yeah... never assume, I know : ) ) that it was 100% pure stearic acid and could be used as such in a soap calc. Unfortunately, there is no  CAS number associated with that particular listing.

@LBussy I hate to bother you, but what is your opinion on using the stearic acid I linked?

Anyone else have any input?


----------



## lsg

My answer is yes, you can use the default Stearic Acid in SoapCalc as the descrition given for the product is 99% pure.


----------



## Firestarter

Phlier said:


> Greetings, everyone. I've spent the last couple of months reading up on all things soap making. I've spent a ton of time lurking here as well as the other well known soap information sites. Many thanks to all of you who have shared your knowledge!
> 
> So I've settled on a recipe for my first attempt at making a shaving soap. But after doing a lot of reading, I'm a bit confused on putting in the correct information for stearic acid into a soap calculator. I just bought this stearic acid (that is NOT an affiliate link, and I am in no way affiliated with the manufacturer, seller, or Amazon). It will be arriving today, along with all the other things necessary to make my first batch. Can I just use the default "Stearic Acid" information in soapcalc for that particular stearic acid, or do I need to figure out my own values? When I purchased it, I just assumed (yeah... never assume, I know : ) ) that it was 100% pure stearic acid and could be used as such in a soap calc. Unfortunately, there is no  CAS number associated with that particular listing.
> 
> @LBussy I hate to bother you, but what is your opinion on using the stearic acid I linked?
> 
> Anyone else have any input?


The linked product is a mix of stearic and palmitic acid, with a higher SAP value than the stearic acid listed in most lye calculators. I've used similar products and it works fine in shaving soap, just make sure to use the correct SAP value (which for this product seems to be 207-211)
See: http://hbchemical.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/HYSTENE-5016-TDS.pdf


----------



## Phlier

Firestarter said:


> The linked product is a mix of stearic and palmitic acid, with a higher SAP value than the stearic acid listed in most lye calculators. I've used similar products and it works fine in shaving soap, just make sure to use the correct SAP value (which for this product seems to be 207-211)
> See: http://hbchemical.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/HYSTENE-5016-TDS.pdf


Thank you! That's exactly the information I tried to find, but couldn't. Darn it, I wanted it to be 100% (or as close as possible to it) of actual stearic acid. It looks like the stuff I bought is a 50/50 mix of stearic and palmitic.

I'm not sure it it's permitted or not, but if so.... could you guys provide some links of known good (as close to 100% stearic acid as possible) stearic acid suppliers? It appears that you *really* have to dive down deep to determine exactly what the "stearic acid" you are buying really is! Next step: search for the CAS number given by @LBussy for the stearic acid we want...

I'm going to go ahead and use the stuff (it just showed up on the doorstep five minutes ago), even though it isn't 100% stearic acid. As you stated, I'll make sure to use the appropriate SAP value. Hmm... the link shows a range of 207 to 211. I'll be using 60/40 KOH/NaOH. I wonder if the lower value is supposed to be for NaOH, and the higher for KOH.


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## Phlier

Well, it looks like I've fallen down the same rabbit hole that @LBussy was trying to keep us (or more specifically, me ; ) ) from falling down on his web site.  And I'm going to chase that carrot all the way down to the bottom.

I've found information that directly conflicts with the link given by @Firestarter . It looks like pmcbiogenix is the manufacturer of "Hystrene 5016 NF-EXT", which is the product I received. For those interested, take a look here. There are multiple products on that page which have the CAS number of 57-11-4. Now the interesting thing here is that they list products which contain palmitic acid separately from those that contain stearic acid, but list those products under the same CAS number as stearic acid! Although the information given on this page is incomplete, it leaves the impression that Hystrene 5016 NF-EXT is pure stearic acid, which conflicts with the link that Firestarter found. But I have yet to find a way to verify this. The acid values given for Hystrene do look very similar to the numbers for their palmitic acid products, though, so at this point, who knows.

*sigh* I can't believe it's so difficult to find a product that is just simply "stearic acid." I'm probably being way too OCD about this; there's probably not enough of a difference between using pure stearic acid and the palmitic/stearic blend to really bother trying to sort all of this out. Regardless, it would be nice to find pure stearic acid.

Edit: Firestarter, you were right! Check this out!


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## Phlier

My brain feels like mush. I have yet to find a source of 100% STEARIC Acid. It seems like every time I come across one that looks like it's 100% stearic, some deeper diving reveals palmitic. So that  battle continues, with any help from you guys very much appreciated. Anyone out there getting 100% stearic acid anywhere?

OK, so shaving soap...

IMO, one of the reasons that there is room in this market for such a wide variety of artisan soap makers to be successful, is that there's a wide variety of preferences among wet shavers; if you were to ask a bunch of wet shavers to list the top five things you want in a shaving soap, you'd get a ton of variation. Unfortunately, I've only been able to find one shaving soap that hits the top three (of my top five) on my list. That soap is Tabac. It's made in Germany. And I love the performance. But I despise the smell. It isn't a "fragrance", or "scent", it's a "smell". I've put up with the smell for many years because it performs so well. So I'm on a quest to develop a home made alternative.

My top five list for shaving soap:
1. Lubrication
2. Lubrication
3. Lubrication
4. Lather
5. Scent

Why do guys even use shaving soap or shaving cream? Why don't we all just grab a razor and get to work? Lubrication. Glide. Slip. Slide. That's the primary reason we use it. Now some guys are able to just wet their faces and razor away. While at the other end of the spectrum are guys like me, and we're allllll about the lubrication. I have little tree stump steel wires for whiskers that pop out of the softest, most sensitive skin you've ever seen on a male. My wife says my skin ".... is sooo soft, you should've been a girl." Gee... thanks. As you can imagine, it's not easy to chop down little steel trees like that without getting that soft sensitive skin in a complete tizzy fit. So to me, lubrication is top dog. In fact, it's the top three dogs.

I've been wet shaving for years. I've been straight shaving for 11 years. Now it might seem odd that a guy with huge trees made out of steel and baby bum soft skin would prefer a straight razor, but given time to perfect the technique, you can get a far more gentle shave with a straight than you can with a DE or cartridge. It just takes practice. A lot of it. But I digress...

The recipe for shaving soap that I'm trying to develop is all about the slip/slide/glide/lubrication. If it manages to develop decent lather, that would just be a bonus.

So I thought I'd ask all of the experienced soapers out there for their opinions. What oils make for the best lubricants when they're turned into soap? I'm aware of the various clays, but what other ingredients/additives make good soap lubes?

I just made the soap from the OP just last night, and it's very good as far as lather goes. It's also pretty good (better than a lot of the shaving soaps on the market) at lubrication. But unfortunately, it's just not as slippery as smelly old Tabac. 

If you wanted to make a soap so slippery it just wants to jump out of your hands, where would you start? I've been reading up on the properties of oils when they're turned into soap, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like how effective they are at lubrication is ever stated. We need a lubrication stat added to soapcalc! 

Thanks for any pointers.


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## psfred

High stearic acid gives that slippery sensation I've found, along with some superfat like shea butter or cocoa butter (and if you get non-deodorized cocoa butter, it briefly smells of chocolate, too).

If you want pure stearic acid it's easier to get fully hydrogenated soy bean oil, aka soy wax.  The stuff labeled 415 I think is 85% stearic acid with the balance being the glycerol "backbone" of lipids, so essentially it's pure stearic acid.  High melting point, so you need to melt it into your other fats.

The recipe I use for that sort of soap is 40% soy wax, 40% tallow (you can also use lard if you want, but it tends to go rancid more easily), 10% coconut oil, and 5% each shea and cocoa butter.  It will turn brown from the cocoa butter, but not go rancid if you use citric acid and BHT, which I recommend.  Takes a long time to use up shaving soap.

You can make fairly small batches (200 gr of oils or so) if you want to experiment -- I find 100 gr of home made shaving soap lasts me a good six months, it's easy to get sorta over-supplied with shaving soap  pretty quick.

When making recipes for shaving soap, aim for 50% and higher stearic plus palmitic acids in the fatty acid profile.  The rest isn't too critical  so long as you don't have too much oleic.  Castor oil is optional, I don't find it does anything particular for me that coconut oil doesn't, but it won't hurt any either unless you get up to 20% or so, when I find the lather to suffer a bit and slickness to drop of some.

As far as the "stearic aicd" with palmitic, you won't see much difference I don't think.  Pure stearic (from soy wax) seems to give me a slightly harder soap at 60% KOH, but it works fine.  Hard to say, as the stearic in that particular soap is very high (65% I think).

You should be able to duplicate the characteristics of Tabac pretty well, it's only soap after all.  Use beef tallow, it's about the best thing for shaving soap.


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## Phlier

@psfred Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I just learned more about shaving soap in your one post than I have in the last month of reading. I'm going to do exactly as you suggest and go with very high stearic acid and tallow. I better get the tallow on order. I'm so excited about this I'm actually going to pry open my check book and pay for shipping from Amazon to get it next day.

I did find a chemical manufacturer that makes 92% pure stearic acid, but no one carries it for end user purchase. The only places that carry it are the big supply places that want to know how many pallets of the stuff you want.  So soy wax it is! I've read a few of DeeAnna's posts that state that stearic acid doesn't produce glycerin when it's saponified. I noticed that you said that soy wax has a glycerol backbone, so I'm wondering if soy wax *does* give off glycerin when it's saponified? I'm also not seeing soy wax in soapcalc. I hate to bother you with this, but would you mind posting a link to where you bought yours, and also where you got the SAP values? Actually... you know what, never mind... I've been researching the heck out of stuff, and I'm not going to take any short cuts now. I'm gonna chase it down myself! 

I have Tetrasodium EDTA, and BHT on order. I have a ton of citric acid here, so I'll make my own citrate. But yes, I'll definitely take your advice on avoiding rancidity. I DO NOT want rancid soap! 

I just looked over the ingredients list of Tabac, and if you break it down to the soap ingredients and "other" ingredients, it's actually a fairly simple soap. They list the ingredients in their saponified form, but it's easily decoded. It's also very similar to your suggested recipe. It basically has tallow, stearic acid,  cocoa butter and glycerin. One thing that throws me off a bit is that it lists Tetrasodium EDTA, and then Tetrasodium Etidronate. I thought they were the same thing? The rest of the ingredients are either smelling (no "fragrance" here) related or other non-essential additives (I've looked every one of them up now).

Not only does Tabac start out slippery, it *stays* slippery the more you dilute it down with water. When most soaps have long since lost their slipperyness due to too much water, Tabac *stays* slippery.

One last question.... do you hold out the shea and/or cocoa butters and add them after the mixture passes zap to make sure that the super fats are, indeed, either/both the shea and cocoa butters? I'm kinda leaning toward only holding out the 5% shea butter (so yes, 5% SF), and adding it only after the zap test passes so that I can make darn good and sure that the SF is the shea. I did this with the soap I made two nights ago, and I love the post shave feel of the soap that has the shea butter as the SF. It's a very soft, non-dry feeling. OK, so I'm a big guy: 6'2' and 220 lbs. Tough as nails. Never in my life did I think that I'd just type out the fact that I like that my face feels "soft and not dry" after shaving. I feel like I need to go do something exceedingly manly now. This whole shaving thing really seems to get a guy  in touch with his feminine side. 

@psfred Thank you so much for your help. I think you now have me pointed in the right direction on my quest to make my very own, non-smelly, Tabac. It may not be smelly like Tabac, but you can be darn sure it's going to be something masculine smelling by the time I'm done with it!!! Now where did I put that rose essential oil... 

Seriously, though... You have been a great help both on this forum and on Badger & Blade. I always look forward to reading your posts on either forum, because I *know* I'm going to learn something. Guys like you are few and far between, and hugely under appreciated.

I'm gonna go make a small (4 oz total oils weight) batch of a slightly different variation of the recipe I cooked up two nights ago, so I can use it as a benchmark for the new tallow recipe I'll cook up once I get the tallow and soy wax delivered. I reload my own firearm ammunition, so I have multiple scales that are accurate at very small weights. In fact, it's going to be the larger batches I'm going to have a problem with; none of my current larger capacity scales have the accuracy I'd need to feel comfortable using them for soap.

Edit: Darn it, left out one last question.... are you using 5% SF?

Yet another edit: Soy wax *is* in soapcalc.

And here we are with another Edit: It looks like I might have found a pretty high purity stearic acid. The saponification values for it are very close to the values in soapcalc. It seems that stearic acids that have a high percentage of palmitic acid have a higher SAP value than those that have a greater percentage of actual stearic acid. The linked stearic has an SAP value closer to that listed in soapcalc than I have been able to find up to this point.


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## psfred

yes, soy wax is listed as fully hydrogenated soy bean oil.  It is a triglyceride, but you may want to add a little more glycerol anyway, it helps with lathering.

I hold back half the cocoa butter and shea butter for 5% superfat, add it along with my fragrance oils at the end of the cook.

Add a little extra boiling water at the end of the cook if the soap is dry, small volumes can lose enough water during the cook that they become hard to manage.  Note that it should be boiling water (or at least very hot) or you will solidify the soap instead of softening it up to mold, etc.

There is nothing manly about your skin feeling like it's going to split from desication right after a shave!


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## MickeyRat

I used this product from Amazon for my stearic acid.  I don't see anything on either the Amazon listing or the product itself to indicate that it's not plain stearic acid.  It worked fine.


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## Tinmanwoodworks

I get my stearic acid from Acme-Hardesty here.  It's 90% pure which is the closest I've found.  The only catch is they don't sell less than 50 lbs at a time.


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## Phlier

MickeyRat said:


> I used this product from Amazon for my stearic acid.  I don't see anything on either the Amazon listing or the product itself to indicate that it's not plain stearic acid.  It worked fine.


Unfortunately, all "stearic acids" are not created equal. The majority of the stearic acids available for purchase on Amazon and most of the cosmetic retail sites are a mixture of palmitic acid and stearic acid. The functional difference is small, but it is there. The one you posted is one of the myriad that I tracked down. It is a mixture of palmitic and stearic acids.

@Tinmanwoodworks Thanks for the link, it's too bad you have to buy such a large amount at a time. Without being able to actually look at the manufacturer's data sheet (the links to the sheets on that site are broken), it's impossible to know if that 90% pure rating actually means 90% pure stearic. I've seen quite a few listings for 90% pure stearic acid that ended up being 45% palmitic and 45% stearic, giving you a total "purity" of 90%.

But it looks like soy wax is going to be a good substitute, so I think I've chased this rabbit as far as I'm willing. Thanks for the help, btw. 

Industrene® 9018 is one of the few products I've found that is actually 90% pure stearic acid, but I can't find a supplier that will sell it to the end user.


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## Tinmanwoodworks

Phlier said:


> @Tinmanwoodworks Thanks for the link, it's too bad you have to buy such a large amount at a time. Without being able to actually look at the manufacturer's data sheet (the links to the sheets on that site are broken), it's impossible to know if that 90% pure rating actually means 90% pure stearic. I've seen quite a few listings for 90% pure stearic acid that ended up being 45% palmitic and 45% stearic, giving you a total "purity" of 90%.



Just FYI, I tracked down my copy of the MSDS and it does say 90% stearic acid minimum.  No mention of palmitic acid


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## Phlier

Tinmanwoodworks said:


> Just FYI, I tracked down my copy of the MSDS and it does say 90% stearic acid minimum.  No mention of palmitic acid


Searching for the CAS number (67701-03-05) shown on the package linked from Amazon comes up with this information. It's a blend of C16 (palmitic) and C18 (stearic). This is exactly the problem with purchasing stearic acid. Many people are selling a mixture of palmitic and stearic acid, and they are claiming it to be 100% stearic acid. Welcome to the rabbit hole!  Here is a really nice read done by @LBussy when he fell down the same hole. It's important to realize that there is a slightly different SAP number when using a palmitic/stearic blend. Luckily, the SAP value for a mixture of palmitic/stearic is higher (at least, in all of the ones that I've found so far) than pure stearic, so we are erring on the side of safety; you are going to end up with a higher super fat percentage than what you intended when you use a palmitic/stearic blend. I'm very glad that the "stearic acid"  palmitic/stearic blends that are being sold have this buffer. It would be a very bad thing if the SAP value for the blends were *lower* than pure stearic. Regardless, please run whatever you have through a soapcalc, and make sure that you are entering into the soap calc *exactly what you have*. The SAP value for 67701-03-05 is NOT the same as the SAP value for "stearic acid" in soapcalc. Another huge problem is that often times the MSDS sheet information directly conflicts with the manufacturer's Product Data Sheet! I fell into the same trap as @Tinmanwoodworks did many times; I found a product's MSDS sheet, saw that it showed 100% stearic acid, but then found the actual PDS sheet, where it lists a blend. So caveat emptor: don't settle for the MSDS, look at the actual PDS or even a product chemical analysis sheet if it's available.

To make matters even worse... the CAS number for stearic acid is 57-11-4. You would think that you'd be able to buy a product labeled CAS 57-11-4, and get just plain ole stearic acid. But then you look at this and see that chemical manufacturers are being very loose with their application of that CAS number. There are a ton of listings on that page for 57-11-4, and the majority of them are for blends.

Ladies/Gents, what it boils down to is this: You need to determine exactly what your "stearic acid" is, and use the SAP values for your exact product. At this point in time, I've spent two days tracking down the various listings of stearic acid on amazon and other cosmetic supply places. I have yet to find EVEN ONE LISTING that could be *verified* as being pure stearic acid. So the chances of whatever you bought being pure stearic acid, and being able to be inputted into a soapcalc as such, is VERY  slim. No matter what you buy, be it a palmitic/stearic blend, straight palmitic, whatever it is, make sure that you can get the absolute no-questions-asked correct SAP value for that product.

ETA: I just got off of a web chat with a sales rep for a chemical supplier that carries Industrene 9018. They sell it in a minimum purchase quantity of 100 pounds, and can only ship to a business address.

Yup, soybean wax is where it's going to be for a while.


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## Tinmanwoodworks

The cas number on my order was 57-11-4.  I went down this particular rabbit hole about a year ago, and this was the best solution I found.  The SDS is available here.  I have read the article by @LBussy before although I never noticed he was also from KC.  What up 913


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## Phlier

Tinmanwoodworks said:


> The cas number on my order was 57-11-4.  I went down this particular rabbit hole about a year ago, and this was the best solution I found.  The SDS is available here.  I have read the article by @LBussy before although I never noticed he was also from KC.  What up 913


I appreciate the info, for sure. It looks like that is 90% stearic acid and only 10% palmitic. Darn good stuff.


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## MickeyRat

Well that sucks.  Since I'm the only one using my shaving soap and it seems to be doing the job, I'll probably continue using what I have next year when I need more.  That said, is the soybean wax for candle making the right stuff?  Somehow I think not.  Would you treat it like stearic acid?


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## psfred

Soy wax is fully hydrogenated soy bean oil, and consists of three molecules of stearic acid attached to one molecule of glycerol (a triglyceride, just like any other "oil").  It is solid at room temperature and has a fairly high melting point.  You do NOT have to add extra glycerol if you use it instead of stearic acid (whatever mix of stearic and palmitic you have) and it makes nice shaving soap.  A little harder to balance, but not impossible.  

In my use, it also produces a harder soap with 60% KOH, you might want to up the KOH to 75% if you use it.  The soap works fine.

It also saponifies like an oil, rather than instantly making soap upon addition of lye, so it will take a little longer to complete.  I have not tried using it in cold process shaving soap, although I suppose you could -- I prefer to believe that I have more control over the super fat by using hot process and adding the fats I want as superfat after the cook.


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## MickeyRat

Thanks for the info psfred.  I mised the parenthetical soy wax in Soupee.  I think most people that have tried making shaving soap go hot process.  At least, I did and I doubt I'll change.


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## Phlier

Well, just for grins, I'm going to make a batch today out of 100% soy wax, saponified with 60/40 KOH/NaOH. I'm very curious as to how a soap made with 87% stearic and 11% palmitic works regarding lube and lather. I suspect that it'll lather like crazy, but be less slippery than a "normal" shave soap. We'll see. 

I'm now up to page 31 of this thread. Just about half way there! *need more coffee*

ETA: Well, I did it. I made a 100 gram batch (I have extremely accurate low capacity scales) of straight soybean wax, saponified 60/40 KOH/NaOH. The lather was horrible, but it is extremely slippery. *Extremely* slippery. So I had that exactly backwards. I was expecting tons of lather, but not much slip. Looks like it's CO for the lather, and stearic for the slick.


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## Phlier

Soooooo.... Lanolin. What the heck is up with this stuff?

Looking at Lanolin in soapcalc, I see that there are saponification numbers for it, but it doesn't break down into any saponifiables. I read Wikipedia's entry for it, and yup, sure enough, it doesn't contain any saponifiable triglycerides. Yet it has SAP values? This is something I'm having  a hard time wrapping my head around.

I also see guys using it as part of their base fats, and also a certain amount held out til the end of the cook for use as a super fat. Since it has no saponifiables in it, why is the lye amount increased when it's used as a base fat? What does the lye do to the lanolin if it's not really saponifying it?

After multiple trial batches, I'm just about zero'd in on a recipe that I really like. I'm just trying to work out the post shave face feel a bit, as it's a bit on the dry side. I've been doing a zero lye discount, but adding an additional 3% shea butter after zap ( I have extremely accurate scales, so I'm not a bit bothered by low SF amounts). I *really* like the lather I'm getting, so I don't really want to up the shea super fat up to 5%, so I'm thinking I might change the SF to lanolin, or possibly split it to 1.5% shea and 1.5% lanolin. But as I started looking into it, I found the rather strange saponification specs on it.


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## psfred

Lanolin contains a small amount of oil and hence consumes a little hydroxide, that's why it has a saponification number but no real "fatty acid profile".  There are other things in it that also neutralize some hydroxide as well.  I assume, without looking it up, that like beeswax it contains fatty acid esters (not triglyerides) that are longer than lipid fatty acids, and the alcohol is much longer than glycerol (and likely not a polyol, too).  SoapCalc doesn't track those things, so they don't show up even though lanolin "saponifys" -- that is, consumes some lye.

I use 5%, which is the usual suggestion,  3% might be a bit low.  I use 3% in bath soap though.  What you save out for superfat really doesn't matter all that much in terms of "lye discount" or "superfat" -- any residual lye at the end of the cook will be consumed by whatever you put in for superfat.  You can easily just add a little lanolin after the cook, or include it in the recipe so that the lye weight is adusted.  It's not really critical so long as you have superfat.

I have a grease bomb for facial skin and don't want lanolin in my soap, but a buddy of mine has fairy dry skin and really likes it in his.


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## Jetpilot

Pure stearic Acid 57-11-4 @ Soapgoods. https://www.soapgoods.com/stearic-acid-p-558.html


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## Tinmanwoodworks

Jetpilot said:


> Pure stearic Acid 57-11-4 @ Soapgoods. https://www.soapgoods.com/stearic-acid-p-558.html


This is the problem with stearic acid.  At first glance I was super stoked to be able to buy in  smaller quantities, and the sds list the ingredients as stearic acid, but if you Google the product name HYSTRENE[emoji2400] 5016 NF FG POWDER it turns out that this is 50% palmitic acid.


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## Phlier

Jetpilot said:


> Pure stearic Acid 57-11-4 @ Soapgoods. https://www.soapgoods.com/stearic-acid-p-558.html


Yup, just as @Tinmanwoodworks said, if you click on the Safety Data Sheet link, it shows that it's Hystrene 5016. I'm adding the link, as the picture in Tinmanwoodwork's post is broken for me.

Edit: Actually, that link is to the SDS, not the manufacturer's data sheet. I have found the data sheet from the manufacturer (it's actually listed in one of the links in an earlier post of mine), and yeah... Hystrene 5016 is 46% Palmitic and 54% Stearic acid. Pretty typical of all the "stearic acid" you'll find on the market right now.



psfred said:


> Lanolin contains a small amount of oil and hence consumes a little hydroxide, that's why it has a saponification number but no real "fatty acid profile".  There are other things in it that also neutralize some hydroxide as well.  I assume, without looking it up, that like beeswax it contains fatty acid esters (not triglyerides) that are longer than lipid fatty acids, and the alcohol is much longer than glycerol (and likely not a polyol, too).  SoapCalc doesn't track those things, so they don't show up even though lanolin "saponifys" -- that is, consumes some lye.
> 
> I use 5%, which is the usual suggestion,  3% might be a bit low.  I use 3% in bath soap though.  What you save out for superfat really doesn't matter all that much in terms of "lye discount" or "superfat" -- any residual lye at the end of the cook will be consumed by whatever you put in for superfat.  You can easily just add a little lanolin after the cook, or include it in the recipe so that the lye weight is adusted.  It's not really critical so long as you have superfat.
> 
> I have a grease bomb for facial skin and don't want lanolin in my soap, but a buddy of mine has fairy dry skin and really likes it in his.



Thanks again, @psfred , that's exactly the information I was looking for. I really can't thank you enough for all of your help.


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## Jetpilot

Looks like Hystrene 9718 is what we are looking for. 92% purity.


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## Phlier

Jetpilot said:


> Looks like Hystrene 9718 is what we are looking for. 92% purity.


I spent over a week chasing the various pure stearic acids. I finally gave up. Soy wax is 87% stearic acid, and makes for fine shaving soap. Great replacement for stearic acid, and it doesn't saponify instantly. It also kicks off glycerin, so you don't have to add as much (or any, really) as you do with stearic/palmitic.

Look for soy wax 415. I bought this. I've made around five or so batches with it, and it works *great*. Check out the stats for soy wax in soapcalc. You'll see what  a great replacement it is for stearic.

ETA: I really like the fact that soy wax doesn't saponify as fast as stearic/palmitic blends. It does still end up saponifying faster than the other oils you'll use, but not too much faster. I end up with a much more consistent texture. Closer to pudding than mash potatoes. Actually, closer to apple sauce.


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## Phlier

Misschief said:


> *bump*
> I love this thread.
> 
> Even though I've made several batches of shave soap for friends and family, using Songwind's awesome recipe, I've decided it's time to "play". I've re-read, for at least the third time, possibly the fourth time, this entire thread and this time, I've made notes, notes, and more notes.
> 
> I've tried a batch with menthol (all test batches are 250 grams of oil). I've tried adding a touch of bentonite clay to another batch (still not sure of that one). Today's batch is made with dual lye and soy wax instead of stearic acid and the addition of silk powder (Wow, the dregs left in the crockpot exploded into foam when the brush touched it!).
> 
> Now, I need to find willing testers who will give me honest feedback.
> 
> This is the one with a bit of bentonite clay in it (1/2 tsp. in 250 grams of oil).
> 
> View attachment 33355


OK, I know this is an older post, but @Misschief is sill active here, so... Let's talk briefly about clay. Before we do, I know how polarizing this subject is, and hope I don't start a "clay wars." Some guys love it, others hate it, and yes, it is certainly possible to make fantastic shave soap without it. But you can also make fantastic shave soap with it, as well.

I've only made around 15 micro batches of shaving soap, so I'm not the most experienced. Each batch less than 200 grams, and each recipe slightly different. I'm trying to make MY soap... soap that is custom made for exactly what I want. Last week, I started playing with clay.  I decided to start with kaolin, but today's batches will be made with bentonite.... but I digress...

Here's a little something to try: Put a half a teaspoon of clay in the palm of your hand. Add just enough water to it to make a thick mud. Now take your index finger, and smash that mud around your palm. Feel how amazingly slippery that is? Continue to slowly dilute the mud with water, checking the slipperyness after each water addition. Eventually, not only will it stop being slippery, it actually starts to get less slippery than just plain water. Now apply what you've learned toward shaving soap. If you're thinking along the same lines as I am, it's something like wow, there needs to be quite a lot of clay in the soap, and the lather would have to be on the drier side for clay to really work. And that's what my clay soap is like in actual performance. It does make drier lathers more slippery, yes, but when the lather is watered down to the level that most straight shavers use, it becomes less slippery.

So, IMO, if you're going to use clay, then use at least 3% PPO. The resultant soap will be good for shavers that use their lathers at "lather porn" levels of hydration, but not necessarily good for shavers that use lathers so wet they'd never want to photograph them. I love my clay soap for DE shaving, but it stays on the shelf if I'm going to be shaving with a straight that day.

ETA: Clay also does have deleterious effects on lather. My clay soaps don't lather quite as well as my non clay soaps. I mean, they still make lather that is completely acceptable, just not quite as good.


----------



## Opeyemi

hi..can you teach me shaving soap ....


----------



## Misschief

Opeyemi said:


> hi..can you teach me shaving soap ....


Read the thread... seriously, once you read the ENTIRE thread, you'll have an excellent base of knowledge. Personally, I've read the entire thread at least 3 or 4 times.


----------



## runnerchicki

Misschief said:


> Read the thread... seriously, once you read the ENTIRE thread, you'll have an excellent base of knowledge. Personally, I've read the entire thread at least 3 or 4 times.


I've read it through fully just once - had to take a lunch break LOL - but I revisit it often and I agree that there is a wealth of information in this thread and anyone interested in making shaving soap needs to read it top to bottom.


----------



## Jackie Tobey

Phlier said:


> Thank you! That's exactly the information I tried to find, but couldn't. Darn it, I wanted it to be 100% (or as close as possible to it) of actual stearic acid. It looks like the stuff I bought is a 50/50 mix of stearic and palmitic.
> 
> I'm not sure it it's permitted or not, but if so.... could you guys provide some links of known good (as close to 100% stearic acid as possible) stearic acid suppliers? It appears that you *really* have to dive down deep to determine exactly what the "stearic acid" you are buying really is! Next step: search for the CAS number given by @LBussy for the stearic acid we want...
> 
> I'm going to go ahead and use the stuff (it just showed up on the doorstep five minutes ago), even though it isn't 100% stearic acid. As you stated, I'll make sure to use the appropriate SAP value. Hmm... the link shows a range of 207 to 211. I'll be using 60/40 KOH/NaOH. I wonder if the lower value is supposed to be for NaOH, and the higher for KOH.



I just purchased stearic acid CAS 57-11-4 from SoapGoods based in StoneMtn GA, outside of  Atlanta.  I have not used it yet but plan to this weekend.


----------



## Mark the Box Guy

It might be time to make a batch... it's been too long


----------



## JJBlaine

After finally making it thru this entire thread, I decided to give it a go and whip up some shaving soaps a few weeks ago. Overall, I have to say they turned out pretty good!

My son, who shaves with a straight blade and uses a shaving brush, and his gf, who uses disposables and gathered the soap with her hands, just tried them out, and I thought I'd share their feedback.

Soap A) 52% SA, 48% CO, 15% glycerine - they thought it was "meh", they didn't hate it, but they didn't love it either.

Soap B) Swapped out 5% of the CO for 2.5% each cocoa and shea butters - They liked this better. He did comment that it was a very thirsty soap, and that he did have to work it a bit to get the lather going, but that it could also be due to his brush. Of the three soaps, he said this one gave him the cleanest shave. She said it was nice, but did not elaborate.

since the one "complaint" was about the lather, tonight I made a batch replacing 5% of the CO with castor oil, and added 5% sugar.

Soap C) 52% SA, 28% CO, 20% lard, 15% glycerine - This was by far the favorite of the three. He said he noticed a few stray hairs remaining on his face after the first pass with the razor. Despite this, he said this soap gathered the best of the three (although it did need to be worked a little bit more than his usual store-bought shave soap), the lather held up on his face the longest, and the razor glided across his face smoothly. As for the gf, she said she loved it. Both of them commented that their skin felt very  nice afterward. In fact, they liked it enough to have some of their friends try, and now they want some too.

Even though they really liked this one as-is, I thought I'd see if it would be improved with a few tweaks.  I made some tonight using 52% SA, 20% CO, 23% lard, 5% castor oil and 5% sugar. After cooking, I added 15% glycerin, and 2.5% each cocoa and shea butters as SF.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this exceptionally interesting and educational thread!


----------



## LBussy

Past time ... I'm out.

Well, technically not "out."  I've been shaving with a bad batch I made several years ago.  I guess not bad but it was a failed fragrance.  Without that nice almond scent, it doesn't seem right.


----------



## sirtim100

Well, it's very nice to see this thread coming back to life. 

I'm very much a late comer to the forum, and I really enjoyed this thread and all the excitement and advice that was generated. And I've still only got to page 35.

I followed Songwind's recipe twice, as is, and found it worked very well, although it has a tendency to swallow EOs whole, to the extent that the second batch, made with patchouli, had to be rebatched with a little more EO and patchouli doesn't disappear just like that, it's a stubborn little begger. So batch 2 smells better but it went a bit soft (too much water I reckon). Then I did batch 3 with a small tweak, brought on by a shortage of stearic acid. To make 8 oz with the 3.5 oz SA I had, I added some tallow. The end result was (in oz):

3.5 stearic acid
3.5 CO
1 tallow
3 water
1.7 KOH

The justification for the change, apart from the shortage, was to try a shaving soap with tallow. I added 1.5 tablespoon of glycerine and a 0.25 oz blend of lavender, rosemary, bergamot and peppermint as per the recipe. Followed DeeAnna's process from start to finish, and the end result is pretty good. But once again, the EO blend has gone down a black hole and you're left with the smell of SA, which is not high on my list of sexy fragrances. 

My question to the experts here is could I up the EO percentage? Or that does that entail any risk?


----------



## shunt2011

sirtim100 said:


> Well, it's very nice to see this thread coming back to life.
> 
> I'm very much a late comer to the forum, and I really enjoyed this thread and all the excitement and advice that was generated. And I've still only got to page 35.
> 
> I followed Songwind's recipe twice, as is, and found it worked very well, although it has a tendency to swallow EOs whole, to the extent that the second batch, made with patchouli, had to be rebatched with a little more EO and patchouli doesn't disappear just like that, it's a stubborn little begger. So batch 2 smells better but it went a bit soft (too much water I reckon). Then I did batch 3 with a small tweak, brought on by a shortage of stearic acid. To make 8 oz with the 3.5 oz SA I had, I added some tallow. The end result was (in oz):
> 
> 3.5 stearic acid
> 3.5 CO
> 1 tallow
> 3 water
> 1.7 KOH
> 
> The justification for the change, apart from the shortage, was to try a shaving soap with tallow. I added 1.5 tablespoon of glycerine and a 0.25 oz blend of lavender, rosemary, bergamot and peppermint as per the recipe. Followed DeeAnna's process from start to finish, and the end result is pretty good. But once again, the EO blend has gone down a black hole and you're left with the smell of SA, which is not high on my list of sexy fragrances.
> 
> My question to the experts here is could I up the EO percentage? Or that does that entail any risk?



What percentage are you using?   I have to lower my usage from what I use in CP.   I add the EO/FO just before pouring my shaving soap. 6% for CP and generally 3-5% for my shaving soap.


----------



## sirtim100

shunt2011 said:


> What percentage are you using?   I have to lower my usage from what I use in CP.   I add the EO/FO just before pouring my shaving soap. 6% for CP and generally 3-5% for my shaving soap.



The amount used in the Songwind recipe is 0.25oz for 8 oz of soap.

Going by your percentages, the upper margin gives 0.4oz, which might be adequate, depending on the EOs used, of course.


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## Misschief

sirtim100 said:


> The amount used in the Songwind recipe is 0.25oz for 8 oz of soap.
> 
> Going by your percentages, the upper margin gives 0.4oz, which might be adequate, depending on the EOs used, of course.


Do check the usage rate for each EO. Each is different.


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## Jackie Tobey

Jackie Tobey said:


> I just purchased stearic acid CAS 57-11-4 from SoapGoods based in StoneMtn GA, outside of  Atlanta.  I have not used it yet but plan to this weekend.





Jackie Tobey said:


>


For those interested here is the PDS information from SoapGoods on their Stearic Acid.






Jackie Tobey said:


> For those interested here is the PDS information from SoapGoods on their Stearic Acid.


. Sorry the first one was hard to read.  And again it looks like a mix of Palmitic, Stearic, Myrstic.


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## Carla Burke

Awesome!!! Congratulations!!


----------



## Sally Scheibner

songwind said:


> I tried to do a cold process version of it, and it seized. I think it's too much stearic acid for CP. If someone with more experience wants to weigh in on that, I'd be grateful.


Have you tried beeswax to harden instead?



DeeAnna said:


> I don't have the info, but I recall someone reporting that caffeine is not absorbed in any significant amount through the skin, so you're far better off to get your caffeine fix in other ways.
> 
> Vasodilator = opens up the blood vessels. If that is the goal, why not drink a cuppa joe instead and wash your face in hot water and dry with a brisk rub of a towel? YMMV!



Seems that MMSage has a coffee soap recipe for cleaning fish stinky hands etc. I made it long ago and liked it. Added the strong coffee water (apart from lye H2O. Also some finely ground ( itty bit ?) to trace. Recipe is still on MMS.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Well, I've finally made it to the end of this loooooong thread, but I've already made my shaving soap.  It seems that my recipe might be OK judging by the posts on the last few pages.  I've not used stearic at all, but used soy wax in high amount instead, and I have cold processed it.  It was thick, but still pourable. Fingers crossed it will work.  I'll keep y'all posted.


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## marlowe57

Thank you to everyone for this terrific thread!  I'm thrilled with the last batch I made and so I'm sharing it 

Coconut Oil   27.5%
Beef Tallow   27.5%
Stearic Acid   27.5%
Castor Oil        7.5%
Shea Butter    10.0%

60% KOH
40% NAOH

25% Lye Solution.  

[EDIT:  4% Superfat]

CPHP

5% Glycerine & 5% Lanolin added. (percent of oils).  I added the lanolin after cook, you really have to stir.  I might add it early next time.

I used 3% ppo FO after cook for scent.   I used a fragrance oil (Midnight Waters, an aquatic type, from BB), but use whatever strikes your fancy. 

The stearic acid makes the soap react SUPER FAST REALLY FAST. 

Way back in this thread on page 3, post #50, DeeAnna suggested a two stage saponification and it's a GREAT idea.   She suggested it for a recipe without tallow, Songbird's recipe, but it's still an excellent idea! Thank you!!    But even without a 2 stage process, it works.  Cook it, let the other oils saponify.  It won't take long.  

Terrific lather, good slickness, nice shave.   I got good lather easily, with a synthetic brush, bowl lathering. 

Thank you again to everyone who contributed!


----------



## Vgurer

Hi, I am new to this, but tried the formula anyway; 4.69 oz distilled water + 2.59 oz KOH,  I dissolved 5.58 oz stearic acid, and 5.15 oz coconut oil, I added 1.07 oz of castor oil to the melted solution, add the KOH solution stir vigorously and after 10 or 15 minutes it settled. I cooked for another 5 or 8 mins, no zap at the tongue. added 0.54 oz of cocoa butter, 1.5 table spoon of glycerin, a tea spoon of coconut fragrance and few drops of peppermint essential oil. gave it a strong whisk again, then, distribute it in aluminum cup cake molds, while hot (5 mold) so far, I had the impression that it smells good, (impatient, I took the brush and tried it before it gets cold; it lathers good, it has lots of thick foam.) I believe it will harden and the the molds will get rid of the crumbling sensation, thanks for the basic formula!


----------



## JackofallShaves

Can't believe this thread is still alive, just finished reading the whole thread!! I just tried a version of songwind's recipe with lesser % of CO and added SB instead. The soap turned out great and produces a nice, creamy and stable lather. Couple of questions:

1) My soap(originally made in a crockpot, HP)  is about a week and a half old and it does seem like the soap needs a lot of water to work up a good lather. I mean the lather is great and I just shaved with it, but is there any way to make it "less thirsty"? I want the soap to make as good a lather as the current version but with lesser water and effort. 

2) I slobbed the cooked soap directly into 6 oz tin cans, but the "look" or "Texture" of the dried soap is not very smooth. Any recommendations to make it look smooth and professional, so that I can actually sell this in my local farmer's market? 

Thanks for all the amazing information thus far, this thread has been extremely helpful!


----------



## Fiut

Well, if it is alive, I'll share my experience too  
I did 40% Stearic acid, 20% Lard, 20% castor, 12% shea, 8% CO with 40/60 NaoH/KOH ratio. HP soap countertop method, molded in a pipe, frozen and then cut into pieces. Very good - semi-hard and great lathering. My husband loves it


----------



## sirtim100

Fiut said:


> Well, if it is alive, I'll share my experience too
> I did 40% Stearic acid, 20% Lard, 20% castor, 12% shea, 8% CO with 40/60 NaoH/KOH ratio. HP soap countertop method, molded in a pipe, frozen and then cut into pieces. Very good - semi-hard and great lathering. My husband loves it


 
I see you used lard instead of tallow. Any reason for that?


----------



## Fiut

Here I can find easily lard, but tallow is not so commonly used. I've rendered some goat and beef tallow for my experiments. Our ancestors used lard for soap for ages. So using lard is the most reasonable choice for me  It is high in oleic acid and good for skin.


----------



## sirtim100

Sound like very good reasons to me...

Same thing in Spain. You can get good, cheap lard in supermarkets. You have to beg, steal or borrow tallow from the butcher (who now charges me) and render it, etc.


----------



## shunt2011

It will never be smooth.  HP is usually more rustic. I make pucks in a silicone column mold and slice it for refills. I pour my soap into 8 oz low profile jars.  I cure it


Vgurer said:


> Hi, I am new to this, but tried the formula anyway; 4.69 oz distilled water + 2.59 oz KOH,  I dissolved 5.58 oz stearic acid, and 5.15 oz coconut oil, I added 1.07 oz of castor oil to the melted solution, add the KOH solution stir vigorously and after 10 or 15 minutes it settled. I cooked for another 5 or 8 mins, no zap at the tongue. added 0.54 oz of cocoa butter, 1.5 table spoon of glycerin, a tea spoon of coconut fragrance and few drops of peppermint essential oil. gave it a strong whisk again, then, distribute it in aluminum cup cake molds, while hot (5 mold) so far, I had the impression that it smells good, (impatient, I took the brush and tried it before it gets cold; it lathers good, it has lots of thick foam.) I believe it will harden and the the molds will get rid of the crumbling sensation, thanks for the basic formula!



Don’t use aluminum pans or molds it will react with the soap and not be good.


----------



## Fiut

shunt2011 said:


> It will never be smooth.  HP is usually more rustic. I make pucks in a silicone column mold and slice it for refills. I pour my soap into 8 oz low profile jars.  I cure it.



Not every HP soap ends rustic. Never say never  I do fluid HP, so it's quite smooth.


----------



## Kiti Williams

JackofallShaves

You could try smoothing the top with a damp finger.  I do this with my CP soaps when they "Glop" into the molds.


----------



## shunt2011

Fiut said:


> Not every HP soap ends rustic. Never say never  I do fluid HP, so it's quite smooth.


I said usually.  some have beautiful soaps.  Most I see are more rustic, just my experience.


----------



## Jackie Tobey

Tinmanwoodworks said:


> I get my stearic acid from Acme-Hardesty here.  It's 90% pure which is the closest I've found.  The only catch is they don't sell less than 50 lbs at a time.


I have this PDS sheet. Posting it for everyone’s information.


----------



## Vgurer

shunt2011 said:


> It will never be smooth.  HP is usually more rustic. I make pucks in a silicone column mold and slice it for refills. I pour my soap into 8 oz low profile jars.  I cure it
> 
> 
> Don’t use aluminum pans or molds it will react with the soap and not be good.



Thank you for the advice.

I will pour it in glass or wooden jars next time. The aluminum gave them a "cheap" feel. I gave the samples to my test group  ie friends, they all liked it. I am using it myself for sometime now, very good lather, above my expectations and I want that heavy thick cream,  but, after the rinsing, I feel dry, too much cleansing properties. I was hoping that the last time coconut melt will be helpful for some conditioning, some superfatting, but alas. Anyway, all my friends found the product better than their commercial ones and asked me for different scented options. I told them that the most expensive part is the volatile components and I will be grateful if they send me the fragrance they wanted. I am guessing that any aftershave with alcohol can be inserted while the solution is cooling? any suggestions?


----------



## shunt2011

Vgurer said:


> Thank you for the advice.
> 
> I will pour it in glass or wooden jars next time. The aluminum gave them a "cheap" feel. I gave the samples to my test group  ie friends, they all liked it. I am using it myself for sometime now, very good lather, above my expectations and I want that heavy thick cream,  but, after the rinsing, I feel dry, too much cleansing properties. I was hoping that the last time coconut melt will be helpful for some conditioning, some superfatting, but alas. Anyway, all my friends found the product better than their commercial ones and asked me for different scented options. I told them that the most expensive part is the volatile components and I will be grateful if they send me the fragrance they wanted. I am guessing that any aftershave with alcohol can be inserted while the solution is cooling? any suggestions?



im not sure what your asking in regards to alcohol. Can you clarify.


----------



## Vgurer

shunt2011 said:


> im not sure what your asking in regards to alcohol. Can you clarify.


I was wondering about the possible harmfull interactions between the alcohol and NaOH, and/or between the alcohol, the heat and the oils all together. At the end, there are lots of C molecules and some H2O in the aftershaves. Some oils can dissolve in alcohol and heat will change a lot of factors.


----------



## shunt2011

Are you taking about adding aftershave fo the soap?  I wouldn’t, but that’s me.  I prefer to use fragrances made for soap.  Aftershave may not maintain its sent.


----------



## redhead1226

Hi All! Well after a very long absence from this forum ( too long a story ) I'm happy to be back. I wanted to make some shave soap and even though I have read this thread many many times over the years and made many many batches of it. Since I haven't made any soap at all in almost 2 years, I FORGOT WHAT TO DO!!!  So I came here again to read. I thank all of you for your contributions to this wonderful thread. The knowledge is invaluable. 

So with all of that being said. I need some advice. I have always made my shave soap in individual round molds as its was thick. But I would like this time to see of I can get it into a column mold without having to bang the hell out of it to make sure I don't have gaps I cant see.  What is your best advice on which version I need to make to have it be a little more fluid. I'm using 80/20 Dual lye.


----------



## godek

For use in a tall column mold you could add a little more water.

What has worked nice for me when using thick silicone and concrete for pouring was external vibration. A big electric back massager or an oscillating grinder work wonders when touched to the outside of a mold. The bubbles just magically work their way up.

Made a 200g total micro batch of a stearic acid, beef tallow, sheabutter and coconut oil shaving soap yesterday. Nice fast hot process with 100 KOH.

This particular recipe was from a German forum, but thanks again for this thread here that helped me learn a lot about shaving soap.

br & HTH
godek


----------



## sirtim100

I use pringles cans with the base cut off and the cap placed on the bottom and fixed with tape.

When I put the soap in, which is pretty dense by the time I start to slip it in there, with a mixture of light tapping of the can on the table top, a bit of pressure with a spoon on the top of the soap and generally jiggling about, it comes out a couple of days later without any big holes or gaps.

Happy soaping


----------



## redhead1226

sirtim100 said:


> I use pringles cans with the base cut off and the cap placed on the bottom and fixed with tape.
> 
> When I put the soap in, which is pretty dense by the time I start to slip it in there, with a mixture of light tapping of the can on the table top, a bit of pressure with a spoon on the top of the soap and generally jiggling about, it comes out a couple of days later without any big holes or gaps.
> 
> Happy soaping



Are you using dual
Lye or just KOH?


----------



## sirtim100

redhead1226 said:


> Are you using dual
> Lye or just KOH?



KOH


----------



## tzavardin

Hello, first post for me. I am a wetshaver, with 0 experience in soapmaking. Since I saw how good, where the local artisan shaving soaps, in compare with some very well known soaps,  it came to my mind to make my own soap, for my relatives and me. I don't intend, and I think I can't anyway sell what I will make, by any means. Every source led me here, where really exists a treasure of information. I finished reading all of this huge thread, plus some other threads, plus silver fox soap (which I understand belongs to a member here). These are my primary sources, while I understood that most other that exist on the net, does not take account of crucial factors.

After all this reading, I think I am ready to make my first batch, with dual lye, NAOH and KOH 90%, probably 30/70, or 20/80, I will choose at the end which. I will post my recipe, in oil percentages, and explain to you my problems. If you can help me, I am open to any suggestions, because I may think I am ready, but still I am a novice, and I must not forget that. Let's start. The soap I am calculating, right now is this:

45% stearic (it is actually a combo of palmitic, stearic, and myristic, from where i will buy it, i am aware of it, and i know how to calculate it)
Coconut Oil: 25%
Shea Butter: 20%
Cocoa Butter: 10%

Superfat will be 5%, and I intend to keep 5% of the shea butter, and add it after the cook, and water will stand at 38% of the oils.
If i make this recipe, the percentage of palmitic and stearic combined stands at 63 percent. So my questions are these:

1) Is the recipe ok? I am concerned about the CO, i wonder if it should be higher, since right now, the soap wont be bubbly. Of course, i need good lather, not bubbles, but still, there are a lot of hard fats. Also the other fats, are ok? I also can have access to avocado oil, and jojoba oil as the low percentage oils, to substitute the cocoa.  Is there a valid reason to do it?

2) I wanted to make a tallow/lanoline soap, but here in greece, tallow is not available, I have to make it on my own from beef fat, and it is quite a procedure, also lanoline, is kinda expensive to use only as superfat. I won't make so much soap. I started to make a recipe with Stearic 40/ CO 25/ Shea B 15/ and Palm oil as substitute to tallow at 20% . I do not know if it stands. If u have advice for this recipe also, i would be grateful.

3) And last. As you see, one of my goals is to make a cheap soap, with the only goal to shave good, for me and the people close to me. At first, i thought the difficult procedure and oils would be the problem, but at the moment, my biggest problem is the fragrance. Being in Greece, creates another issue. We have not valid corporations here, who sell good mixes of fragrance oils for soap. We have some who sell for perfumes. But not soaps. I understand that these fragrances, are  something i should not try. So the only solution is EOs. But again, I understand that to mix them on my own into something that is not a complete failure, needs hours of trial and error, and a lot of money, which i can not give, cause I am a student.

So, I am thinking of using either a solo EO soap, like lemon (maybe with menthol?), or something like DeAnna's recipe who posted in the thread a fougere, with lavender/rosemary, and a bit of wild mint. If you can tell me about similar herb/fougere combinations, with two or three EOs, that you have tried (like cedarwood etc), or a simple citrus combination, you would help me a lot. Or standalone EOs, that are not repelling. As I have already told, i do not need a complex aroma to sell the soap, I just want my brother, or father to not let the soap aside, only because it does not smell good.

Sorry for the many things that I asked, and if I made you tired from reading all this, a very big thanks to all the amateur soapmakers, who contributed to this thread, you already have been a great help for me!


----------



## LBussy

Welcome, @tzavardin!

You say you are a novice, so my recommendations will take that into account:

I think dual lye is more complicated for questionable results.  I'd recommend keeping it simple for your first batch and just using KOH.  The finished soap will be softer, which is fine if you are not manufacturing pucks.  I prefer this type of soap actually.  It is very similar to Italian soaps which may be available to you there.
You are shooting for a superfat of 5%. however, you have shea and cocoa butter totaling 30%.  Neither of these saponifies completely, and I believe a total of 30% of these is on the higher side and may end up leaving a little more on your skin than you expect.
You mention tallow is not available.  A straight stearic/CO soap was the basis for the Martin de Candre which served as the exemplar at the beginning of this thread.  Tallow is a wonderful addition, but not necessarily required.  If lard is available you can try that.  It does have a distinctive odor which many do not like and brings up the next.
The scent is VERY subjective.  As you probably read in the Silver Fox thread, I prefer almond scent similar to the Italian soaps which served as my inspiration.  If you want something a little lighter, lavender/rosemary/mint is very nice.  Cedar is a tough one IMHO and I might avoid that on my first trial.  I have a commercial soap which I use in the summertime which has a good amount of menthol - I use this because I've not gotten around to making a batch with menthol of my own recipe.  If I were to do it I might try a menthol/mint combination.  Lemon reminds me of Arko which I do not like - perhaps it's the way they do it but it smells like a toilet puck to me.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.


----------



## tzavardin

@LBussy Lee, special thanks to you for the help you have given me with your guide. I don't want to underestimate other experienced soapers contribution in this thread, but if i did not have in hands an explained guide, I don't know, if i would have the courage to read all of these information. It all seemed too complicated at start.

Now, I am glad that I asked, because I did not know (even though i now remember I read it somewhere here), that cocoa and shea, had so much unsaponifiables. I guess that was a weak spot. So, I am modifying it, increasing the stearic* at 45%/CO at 30/ shea 12.5 / and Palm oil 12.5. I am using palm oil, in order to keep CO at 30%. If I am not mistaken, I read, that above that percentage, especially at 40%, it dries the skin somehow. If the shea superfat balances that, maybe i could skip the palm oil.

Lard is also hard to find here, not as much as tallow, but still I find it only in deli food stores, and scented with rosemary and stuff to be eaten XD. You may find it funny, but you have to understand that here, the vast majority of the population (and i mean like 99%) is not well acquainted with animal fats, and prefer to use Olive oil in everything, be it cooking, or... soaping! They think it is better, it is in our culture to use it, since most families, produce their own in their villages, and have learned to live with it. Imagine that the few artisan shaving soapmakers that exist here, even though they obviously knew about the research and experience in that forum, all of them used olive oil at some point as a superfat. And they knew it would affect the lather. Because when the ingredients say olive oil, in the customers mind means better smh.

Lastly, thanks for the advice regarding the fragrance, i will try something solid like lavender/rosemary etc. Also for the KOH, you are right, I was not thinking clearly. In fact, I am a great fan of Cella, Razorock, and other italian style soft soaps, and these are at my regular shaving gear, instead of english type three milled hard soaps, like MWF. So, it would be much better if my soap, should be like the soaps I use, and not have NAOH, because just, you know, most recipes have it.


----------



## StoneCottageSoapworks

tzavardin said:


> Hello, first post for me. I am a wetshaver, with 0 experience in soapmaking. Since I saw how good, where the local artisan shaving soaps, in compare with some very well known soaps,  it came to my mind to make my own soap, for my relatives and me. I don't intend, and I think I can't anyway sell what I will make, by any means. Every source led me here, where really exists a treasure of information. I finished reading all of this huge thread, plus some other threads, plus silver fox soap (which I understand belongs to a member here). These are my primary sources, while I understood that most other that exist on the net, does not take account of crucial factors.
> 
> After all this reading, I think I am ready to make my first batch, with dual lye, NAOH and KOH 90%, probably 30/70, or 20/80, I will choose at the end which. I will post my recipe, in oil percentages, and explain to you my problems. If you can help me, I am open to any suggestions, because I may think I am ready, but still I am a novice, and I must not forget that. Let's start. The soap I am calculating, right now is this:
> 
> 45% stearic (it is actually a combo of palmitic, stearic, and myristic, from where i will buy it, i am aware of it, and i know how to calculate it)
> Coconut Oil: 25%
> Shea Butter: 20%
> Cocoa Butter: 10%
> 
> Superfat will be 5%, and I intend to keep 5% of the shea butter, and add it after the cook, and water will stand at 38% of the oils.
> If i make this recipe, the percentage of palmitic and stearic combined stands at 63 percent. So my questions are these:
> 
> 1) Is the recipe ok? I am concerned about the CO, i wonder if it should be higher, since right now, the soap wont be bubbly. Of course, i need good lather, not bubbles, but still, there are a lot of hard fats. Also the other fats, are ok? I also can have access to avocado oil, and jojoba oil as the low percentage oils, to substitute the cocoa.  Is there a valid reason to do it?
> 
> 2) I wanted to make a tallow/lanoline soap, but here in greece, tallow is not available, I have to make it on my own from beef fat, and it is quite a procedure, also lanoline, is kinda expensive to use only as superfat. I won't make so much soap. I started to make a recipe with Stearic 40/ CO 25/ Shea B 15/ and Palm oil as substitute to tallow at 20% . I do not know if it stands. If u have advice for this recipe also, i would be grateful.
> 
> 3) And last. As you see, one of my goals is to make a cheap soap, with the only goal to shave good, for me and the people close to me. At first, i thought the difficult procedure and oils would be the problem, but at the moment, my biggest problem is the fragrance. Being in Greece, creates another issue. We have not valid corporations here, who sell good mixes of fragrance oils for soap. We have some who sell for perfumes. But not soaps. I understand that these fragrances, are  something i should not try. So the only solution is EOs. But again, I understand that to mix them on my own into something that is not a complete failure, needs hours of trial and error, and a lot of money, which i can not give, cause I am a student.
> 
> So, I am thinking of using either a solo EO soap, like lemon (maybe with menthol?), or something like DeAnna's recipe who posted in the thread a fougere, with lavender/rosemary, and a bit of wild mint. If you can tell me about similar herb/fougere combinations, with two or three EOs, that you have tried (like cedarwood etc), or a simple citrus combination, you would help me a lot. Or standalone EOs, that are not repelling. As I have already told, i do not need a complex aroma to sell the soap, I just want my brother, or father to not let the soap aside, only because it does not smell good.
> 
> Sorry for the many things that I asked, and if I made you tired from reading all this, a very big thanks to all the amateur soapmakers, who contributed to this thread, you already have been a great help for me!



tzavardin, In my experience, a dual lye is the best route to take.  You want a soap to have the right consistency and the ratios you mentioned are right in the ballpark at 80/20 to 70/30 with the KOH being in the highest percentage with the NaOH being in the lowest.  The most important ingredients in your base are the Stearic Acid and Coconut Oil which work well in a 4/1 ratio.  You really only need those two to start!  If you want to do some more research my best recommendation would be to look at old cosmetic chemistry and soap books from the early to mid 1900's.  Books by Bennett and Thomssen can be very helpful and so are some of the Patent's and the US Patent sites as well as patents from all over the word again from the early to mid 1900's!  I don't eat cows and I won't kill one just to shave but that is your choice to make.  There are also quite a few books out there that will give you old, traditional scent formulas from the 17-18 and 19 hundreds that are good choices for a products like this.  Just be careful what you read and believe as there are lots of different choices out there and information from that span of time I have suggested has proven that it is still quite valuable and can offer you lots to think about!  Best of luck to you!

David


----------



## FaebulousFormulas

So, I've been playing around a lot with shaving soap the last few weeks, and it actually motivated me to make an account and not just lurk.

After making some 100% K  and 60 40 dual lye mini batches I tried something different. 20% k 80% Na. 10% shea, 40% coconut , 50% stearic with some silk and clay as additives.

I honestly wasnt sure if it would work but lo and behold it just made a really hard bar of soap that I could unmold within an hour.
Testing it out it Lathered way faster, but it was less dense and shiny, but still not at all like regular soap lather. Is the draw of using 60% + just the sheen and lightly denser lather ? I'm wondering if it'll get crumbly the longer it cures.

I'm thinking of eventually adding shave soap to my etsy (it's a while off so i can see how they are long term) and firmer is for sure a little more appealing for shipping purposes.


----------



## LBussy

I imagine olive oil is quite a bit more prevalent there.  Good luck with it!


----------



## StoneCottageSoapworks

FaebulousFormulas said:


> So, I've been playing around a lot with shaving soap the last few weeks, and it actually motivated me to make an account and not just lurk.
> 
> After making some 100% K  and 60 40 dual lye mini batches I tried something different. 20% k 80% Na. 10% shea, 40% coconut , 50% stearic with some silk and clay as additives.
> 
> I honestly wasnt sure if it would work but lo and behold it just made a really hard bar of soap that I could unmold within an hour.
> Testing it out it Lathered way faster, but it was less dense and shiny, but still not at all like regular soap lather. Is the draw of using 60% + just the sheen and lightly denser lather ? I'm wondering if it'll get crumbly the longer it cures.
> 
> I'm thinking of eventually adding shave soap to my etsy (it's a while off so i can see how they are long term) and firmer is for sure a little more appealing for shipping purposes.


 My research has shown me that typically, shaving soaps made mainly of Stearic Acid and Coconut Oil are made with a 80% KOH and 20% NaOH ratio.  If you write it as a formula based on 100% then it would be easier to make comparison's.  My research has shown that the use of clay in a shaving soap dulls the razor blade.  Also, looking at your pics I can see that you have little bubbles within your lather which should be a dense foam.  How large is your water phase?  How large is your oil phase?  All of these things make a difference.  The lather looks OK and it headed in the right direction with the use of Stearic Acid and Coconut oil but the typical ratio of SA/Coco. is about 4/1 and sometimes 3/1 so that is also something you might wish to examine!  Good luck to you!


----------



## cjmalagon

Hi all
First post for me, been reading this treat for the past weeks, and it actually motivated me to make an account and not just lurk.  

I am a wetshaver, with null experience in soapmaking but some making candles (diy skills on point haha). Since I started my wetshaving journey,it has been in my mind to make my own soap, mostly for me and maybe some friends and I think I can't anyway sell what I will make, by any means. 
I finished reading all of this huge thread, plus some other thread. After all this reading, I think I am ready to make my first batch  with 100% KOH.

I will post my recipe, If you can help me, I am open to any suggestions, because I may think I am ready, but still I am a novice.

The soap I am calculating, right now is this:


*Recipe Oils, Fats and Waxes*

Oil%GramsStearic Acid4060Palm Oil3045Coconut Oil, 76 deg1015Mango Seed Butter1015Almond Oil, sweet57.5Aloe Butter57.5*Total**100**150*

Sodium Lactate 3.9 % oils
Glycerine 11 11% oils
Titanium Dioxide 0.5% oils
EDTA  0.5% of batch

Superfat will be 5%,of the Mango butter, and add it after the cook.


Do you think the recipe is ok? 

I am concerned about the the soap wont be bubbly enought. Of course, i need good lather, not bubbles. Or maybe it could be to hard (aiming for a crop like texture). I wanted to make a tallow soap but for me, it is easier and cheaper to make a palm oil - stearic acid soap (local production), same with the Mango and Aloe butter.

A very big thanks to all the pro/amateur soapmakers who contributed to this thread, you already have been a great help for me and the community!.


----------



## JackofallShaves

Hey there, 

Yes, this thread has served as the seed for many soap making ventures I think! Certainly was the case for me, I read this thread 5 times before making my first batch of shaving soap, tried all possible variations, tested everything throughly, did my research before deciding to launch my shaving soap company.

I am assuming you have researched the environmental effects associated with harvesting palm. Not going to preach one way or the other, but if you have not, I would recommend that you at least do some basic Googling and decide for yourself.

Your recipe looks very good to me, at least based on the fatty acid profile needed for a shaving soap. Stearic/Palmitic is up there at around 60 which is good, not sure if you need the Oleic % to be around 21 for a shaving soap. 

The one thing that I learned in my journey is that you don't really need to complicate your recipe with too many ingredients. See if you can get to a similar fatty acid profile with only 4 ingredients. The other thing you might want to consider is upping your Lauric acid % slightly to boost lather, you don't want too much of it as shaving soap are not really for cleansing, but somewhere between the 10-13% mark has worked for me in the past. 

Glycerin looks good, you could even go up to 15 %. I use 1 tsp PPO Sodium Lactate in my recipe. Can't comment on Titanium Dioxide as I don't really use in my soaps. 

There are a lot of experienced soap makers here and I am sure they will have some feedback for you as well. Welcome to the world of soap making and all the best in your journey!



JackofallShaves said:


> Hey there,
> 
> Yes, this thread has served as the seed for many soap making ventures I think! Certainly was the case for me, I read this thread 5 times before making my first batch of shaving soap, tried all possible variations, tested everything throughly, did my research before deciding to launch my shaving soap company.
> 
> I am assuming you have researched the environmental effects associated with harvesting palm. Not going to preach one way or the other, but if you have not, I would recommend that you at least do some basic Googling and decide for yourself.
> 
> Your recipe looks very good to me, at least based on the fatty acid profile needed for a shaving soap. Stearic/Palmitic is up there at around 60 which is good, not sure if you need the Oleic % to be around 21 for a shaving soap.
> 
> The one thing that I learned in my journey is that you don't really need to complicate your recipe with too many ingredients. See if you can get to a similar fatty acid profile with only 4 ingredients. The other thing you might want to consider is upping your Lauric acid % slightly to boost lather, you don't want too much of it as shaving soap are not really for cleansing, but somewhere between the 10-13% mark has worked for me in the past.
> 
> Glycerin looks good, you could even go up to 15 %. I use 1 tsp PPO Sodium Lactate in my recipe. Can't comment on Titanium Dioxide as I don't really use in my soaps.
> 
> There are a lot of experienced soap makers here and I am sure they will have some feedback for you as well. Welcome to the world of soap making and all the best in your journey!


 Also, when I tried 100% KOH, the soap turned out to be way softer than what I wanted. I use a 75/25 KOH and NaOH split and that works best based for the perfect croap like "texture" for me.


----------



## cjmalagon

@JackofallShaves

Hi there, thanks a lot for your recommendations.
Regarding the palm oil, be sure that I have done my homework regarding the environmental effects. In my case, I have the possibility to buy Palm oil ( low quantities ) very very cheap,  my hometown Manzanillo/Colima have a local "sustainable" production of palm oil and other ingredients like CO, Mango Butter, Mango seed oil, Lemon oil etc,  the small cooperative that produce palm oil is part of  RSPO | Olepalma , and so far they are the only ones with RSPO certification.  But I'm open to use other ingredients like Lard, well in fact those are my only 2 options haha.

Following what you said I have done some changes to my recipe.

From 6 to 5 ingredients.
Removed Almond Oil
 - 5 % Mango Butter
+ 5 % Aloe Butter
+ 5 % CO  
Lauritic > 12 %
Oleic > 16 %
Stearic/Palmitic Still at 60 %

*Recipe Oils, Fats and Waxes*

Oil%GramsStearic Acid4080Palm Oil3060Coconut Oil, 76 deg1530Aloe Butter1020Mango Seed Butter510*Total**100**200*





JackofallShaves said:


> Also, when I tried 100% KOH, the soap turned out to be way softer than what I wanted. I use a 75/25 KOH and NaOH split and that works best based for the perfect croap like "texture" for me.



In fact, I prefer a softer texture in my soaps, almost like creams. Ultimately at some point i m going try a dual lye recipe hehe, but for the first batch  I think I'm good with 100% KOH.  Basically my recipe was based on @LBusy website recipe and guide 

On the first recipe that i share i calculated the lye at 25 %, based in many comments that I read but... that's fine? Rereading the guide i notice that lbusy calculated the liquid based in the % oils and i notice a huge change in the lye concentration so i also made that change. 

Thanks a lot for help!.

Regards


----------



## redhead1226

OK - What can I say. I am perplexed! I need a vegan AND palm free vegan recipe! I have tweaked all of my shave soap recipes and I like tallow or Palm. Anyone have a suggestion? HELP!


----------



## Johnez

redhead1226 said:


> OK - What can I say. I am perplexed! I need a vegan AND palm free vegan recipe! I have tweaked all of my shave soap recipes and I like tallow or Palm. Anyone have a suggestion? HELP!



I know this post is old, but this thread is a classic. In fact the original recipe that this was based on was what drew me into making soaps, I also have an account at badger and blade and searching for that thread after I lost the link actually brought me to this forum.

However onto your question-this is quite the challenge. Stearic acid is mostly derived from palm, and it is one of THE perennial ingredients in shaving soaps. Nearly every shaving soap has one of the ingredients that you (and I) wish to avoid (palm or animal). There are work around however-soy wax. Extremely high in stearic acid. I've seen posts here use soy wax to completely do away with all palm and animal ingredients, unfortunately I have not saved any. I actually wish to avoid soy as well, but maybe you are willing to give it a go. The search function on this forum is surprisingly robust so I recommend tooling around there for a bit. I'm just starting with soaping so I can't be much further help, but you are not alone in your quest as that is the exact thing I came here looking for to begin with. Good luck!


----------



## KiwiMoose

I use soy wax in my shave soap


----------



## Johnez

KiwiMoose said:


> I use soy wax in my shave soap



Ya might have a soy convert in me. I've found soy derived stearic acid so I'll give this recipe a shot, but when I'm done with that I'll head over to your thread for some good soy info and see if I can source 415 for some experiments.


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## earlene

Johnez said:


> Ya might have a soy convert in me. I've found soy derived stearic acid so I'll give this recipe a shot, but when I'm done with that I'll head over to your thread for some good soy info and see if I can source 415 for some experiments.


If you use Amazon Prime, it's a good source.  If not, shop around for the best price from candle maker suppliers.  The bottom line for me is total cost, which is cost + tax + shipping, so make sure to factor that in when you shop.









						Golden Wax 415 Soy Wax
					

A pure soy container wax with no additives. Great for blending with natural or paraffin waxes. Can be used by itself, but tops may need refinishing and some frosting may occur.




					www.candlescience.com
				











						Golden Brands GW 415 Soy Wax Flakes
					

Golden Brands GW 415 is a 100% pure soy wax. It does not contain any additives. GW 415 has a slightly higher melt point enabling it to retain a higher fragrance load.




					www.theflamingcandle.com
				











						Golden Brands GW 415 Soy Container Candle Wax
					

Golden Wax - Akosoy 415 is a natural, 100% pure soy wax from AAK that provides excellent scent throw and minimal frosting, helping you make smooth and creamy soy container candles. It's higher melt point of 121°F - 125°F allows for better retention of a higher percentage of your fragrance...




					voyageursoapandcandleusa.com
				




Some of the candlemaking & soapmaker suppliers also sell on Amazon.


----------



## The Efficacious Gentleman

Good to see this thread is still alive and well - I made up a batch of shaving soap yesterday! This is from a soap only a few hours old at most. Classic KoH only

Regarding palm/no palm, do bear in mind that sustainable palm Vs alternatives which are not sustainably farmed brings a whole other dimension. Palm can be a good or a bad thing, it isn't always a bad thing - you just have to look in to the details. Buying a palm alternative can also be a bad thing, but people rarely (if ever!) look in to how it is sourced


----------



## Professor Bernardo

I am considering changing my shaving soap recipe base.  I found a recipe on the web from: How to Make The Best Wet Shaving Soap (Recipe Included)

These are the oils / wax suggested: 
*Shaving Soap Formula Used*

325g Soy Wax (11.46 oz)
195g Coconut Oil (6.97 oz)
65g Cocoa Butter (2.3 oz)
65g Castor Oil (2.3 oz)
796g Water (28 oz)
44g Sodium Hydroxide (1.55 oz)
73g Potassium Hydroxide (2.61 oz)
*Extra Additives for Shaving Soap*

.2g of tussah silk (small pinch) (_optional_)
10g Sodium Lactate
20g Bentonite Clay
They used SoapMaker Lye Calculator, which I checked also and using the suggested water amount to lye, which is a 12.5% lye to water concentration, the lye amounts are basically spot-on.

The claim to have used a 40/60 NaOH to KOH ratio.  

However, when I use the Lye Calculator associated with this forum / website here at Soap Making Forum, the lye amounts are somewhat drastically different. Using the same amounts and types of oils / wax, lye / water concentration, etc.  

For Example this is the Soap Making Friend Calculator's Suggested Lye percentages : 

NaOH Weight36.67 gKOH Weight85.74 g at 90% Purity

The NaOH variance is a 16.70% variance higher, while the NOH variance is a 15.85% variance higher 
Normally, the ratio of the two lye used is quite close in amounts, but their recipe is a wider variance than I've ever seen.  

Which calculator is more accurate?  This sort of threw me a low sliding curve ball I didn't expect. 

I like the Soap Making Friend Calculator because I  am able to store my recipes in the cloud and it's GUI is much more user-friendly.  The SoapMaker Calculator reminds me of Software produced in the late 90's and early 2000's.  

They use a very high amount of water to make it easier to handle after trace and to pour into individual molds, although I will be using a cylindrical mold.

Any comments?  Suggestions?  

I know there are some well-seasoned soap makers here who might be willing to contribute some valuable feedback or such.


----------



## Becky1024

Professor Bernardo said:


> I am considering changing my shaving soap recipe base.  I found a recipe on the web from: How to Make The Best Wet Shaving Soap (Recipe Included)
> 
> These are the oils / wax suggested:
> *Shaving Soap Formula Used*
> 
> 325g Soy Wax (11.46 oz)
> 195g Coconut Oil (6.97 oz)
> 65g Cocoa Butter (2.3 oz)
> 65g Castor Oil (2.3 oz)
> 796g Water (28 oz)
> 44g Sodium Hydroxide (1.55 oz)
> 73g Potassium Hydroxide (2.61 oz)
> *Extra Additives for Shaving Soap*
> 
> .2g of tussah silk (small pinch) (_optional_)
> 10g Sodium Lactate
> 20g Bentonite Clay
> They used SoapMaker Lye Calculator, which I checked also and using the suggested water amount to lye, which is a 12.5% lye to water concentration, the lye amounts are basically spot-on.
> 
> The claim to have used a 40/60 NaOH to KOH ratio.
> 
> However, when I use the Lye Calculator associated with this forum / website here at Soap Making Forum, the lye amounts are somewhat drastically different. Using the same amounts and types of oils / wax, lye / water concentration, etc.
> 
> For Example this is the Soap Making Friend Calculator's Suggested Lye percentages :
> 
> NaOH Weight36.67 gKOH Weight85.74 g at 90% Purity
> 
> The NaOH variance is a 16.70% variance higher, while the NOH variance is a 15.85% variance higher
> Normally, the ratio of the two lye used is quite close in amounts, but their recipe is a wider variance than I've ever seen.
> 
> Which calculator is more accurate?  This sort of threw me a low sliding curve ball I didn't expect.
> 
> I like the Soap Making Friend Calculator because I  am able to store my recipes in the cloud and it's GUI is much more user-friendly.  The SoapMaker Calculator reminds me of Software produced in the late 90's and early 2000's.
> 
> They use a very high amount of water to make it easier to handle after trace and to pour into individual molds, although I will be using a cylindrical mold.
> 
> Any comments?  Suggestions?
> 
> I know there are some well-seasoned soap makers here who might be willing to contribute some valuable feedback or such.


I think the ratio of NaOH to KOH is wrong in the formula. I ran your recipe through the Soapee calculator which is the one I like best when using dual lye. If I used a 40% NaOH / 60% KOH ratio It came up with 37.1 grams NaOH and 86.7 grams KOH which is very close to what you got with Soap Making Friend. If I changed the ratio to to 50% NaOH to 50% KOH it came up with 46.3 grams NaOH and 72.2 grams KOH which is close to your recipe. 

I agree you will need a high water amount to get it in the mold. The high stearic content makes it difficult to handle. You may want to add some sodium lactate or yogurt to help make it more fluid. Your cleansing number is on the high side (20) and conditioning very low (17), so you might want to reduce the amount of coconut oil in there and add a more conditioning oil or butter. Stearic + palmitic is 59 which will be good for stable lather.


----------



## Dr-Piper

Just jumping in to say that I've used soy wax as well as stearic acid and have had success both ways. I was nervous because I didn't find a lot of information on use of soy wax in shave soap. But if it works, it works!


----------



## soyummysoap

Professor Bernardo said:


> I am considering changing my shaving soap recipe base.  I found a recipe on the web from: How to Make The Best Wet Shaving Soap (Recipe Included)
> 
> These are the oils / wax suggested:
> *Shaving Soap Formula Used*
> 
> 325g Soy Wax (11.46 oz)
> 195g Coconut Oil (6.97 oz)
> 65g Cocoa Butter (2.3 oz)
> 65g Castor Oil (2.3 oz)
> 796g Water (28 oz)
> 44g Sodium Hydroxide (1.55 oz)
> 73g Potassium Hydroxide (2.61 oz)
> *Extra Additives for Shaving Soap*
> 
> .2g of tussah silk (small pinch) (_optional_)
> 10g Sodium Lactate
> 20g Bentonite Clay
> They used SoapMaker Lye Calculator, which I checked also and using the suggested water amount to lye, which is a 12.5% lye to water concentration, the lye amounts are basically spot-on.
> 
> The claim to have used a 40/60 NaOH to KOH ratio.
> 
> However, when I use the Lye Calculator associated with this forum / website here at Soap Making Forum, the lye amounts are somewhat drastically different. Using the same amounts and types of oils / wax, lye / water concentration, etc.
> 
> For Example this is the Soap Making Friend Calculator's Suggested Lye percentages :
> 
> NaOH Weight36.67 gKOH Weight85.74 g at 90% Purity
> 
> The NaOH variance is a 16.70% variance higher, while the NOH variance is a 15.85% variance higher
> Normally, the ratio of the two lye used is quite close in amounts, but their recipe is a wider variance than I've ever seen.
> 
> Which calculator is more accurate?  This sort of threw me a low sliding curve ball I didn't expect.
> 
> I like the Soap Making Friend Calculator because I  am able to store my recipes in the cloud and it's GUI is much more user-friendly.  The SoapMaker Calculator reminds me of Software produced in the late 90's and early 2000's.
> 
> They use a very high amount of water to make it easier to handle after trace and to pour into individual molds, although I will be using a cylindrical mold.
> 
> Any comments?  Suggestions?
> 
> I know there are some well-seasoned soap makers here who might be willing to contribute some valuable feedback or such.


I found this article ages ago and I have made it many times only make one change - the water. The recipe online was a bit sloppy for me even for a HP . OK if you want to put it into a little tin or container for the shaving area. I like a hard bar. Just changing the water ratio a little helped in that. I can use C3 soy wax if I add an extra 2% to the coconut oil ration in the calculator. that is about the only other minor change to the recipe calculation. I love soy wax in any soap but it is the bomb in shaving soap.


----------



## KiwiMoose

A question then - won't using so much KoH make for a soft bar? I would have thought the ratio would be better with more NaoH than KoH, given that the NaoH is usually for bar soap and KoH is for liquid.


----------



## AliOop

KiwiMoose said:


> A question then - won't using so much KoH make for a soft bar? I would have thought the ratio would be better with more NaoH than KoH, given that the NaoH is usually for bar soap and KoH is for liquid.


I believe so, and I believe most serious wet shavers prefer shaving pucks that are relatively soft and can be squished easily into a shaving container of choice. Others like being able to cut off a small bit for lathering in a separate lather bowl (to avoid having the whole puck get wet over and over). The higher KOH also makes for easier lathering.


----------



## Ugeauxgirl

I just saw that the nerdy farmwife just posted one without dual lye.  I'm going to try that one.


----------



## KiwiMoose

Ugeauxgirl said:


> I just saw that the nerdy farmwife just posted one without dual lye.  I'm going to try that one.


I moved to dual lye to get a thicker lather.


----------



## Professor Bernardo

IMHO, I feel that the dual lye process makes a much easier to lather shave soap, plus it provides that semi-soft cake or puck which makes it easier to load the shaving brush in the initial phase of lathering.


----------



## Ugeauxgirl

Professor Bernardo said:


> IMHO, I feel that the dual lye process makes a much easier to lather shave soap, plus it provides that semi-soft cake or puck which makes it easier to load the shaving brush in the initial phase of lathering.


You're certainly right, but I'm reluctant to try dual lye, I don't know why.  I'm not that motivated, really.  I don't sell and while I want to try everything but developing a fantastic shave bar really isn't at the top of my list, so....


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## Professor Bernardo

Ugeauxgirl said:


> You're certainly right, but I'm reluctant to try dual lye, I don't know why.  I'm not that motivated, really.  I don't sell and while I want to try everything but developing a fantastic shave bar really isn't at the top of my list, so....


Well... if you are reluctant and such, and dual lye does make the best shaving soap, check out the majority of the top shave soaps; they are all dual lye.
Then buy some from ME!  It could be a win/win proposition.


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## AliOop

Ugeauxgirl said:


> You're certainly right, but I'm reluctant to try dual lye, I don't know why.  I'm not that motivated, really.  I don't sell and while I want to try everything but developing a fantastic shave bar really isn't at the top of my list, so....


But you can also use the KOH to make liquid soap, which would get you to your goal to "try everything."


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