# Antioxidants in soap



## galaxyMLP (Apr 15, 2015)

This doesn't make sense to me. 

Lye oxidizes pretty much everything 100%. So why do I constantly read "this ingredient is great because its an antioxidant"? Antioxidants work by utilizing oxygen radicals and other reactive oxygen species (like peroxides) to react with instead of those things reacting with your skin (or other parts of your body) thereby preventing damage to tissue. 

When these antioxidants become fully oxidized, they are useless as far as "antioxidant" power goes. Same with vitamins. I think the only one that can survive is vitamin E.

 So, am I missing something? Or is there a misconception on how antioxidants work?


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## Seawolfe (Apr 15, 2015)

I think you're right - unless they were added after the cook in HP, or to M&P soap. I also think that they dont do anything in a wash off product that stays on the skin for such a short time, so there's that.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (Apr 15, 2015)

I guess it's just label appeal. When I first started selling my soap I created a description for each formula that listed each ingredient and the qualities of that ingredient. I guess I should reconsider how that might be misleading. I didn't state the soap had antioxidants but rather listed the ingredients with each of their properties.


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## JBot (Apr 15, 2015)

HappyHomeSoapCo said:


> I guess it's just label appeal. When I first started selling my soap I created a description for each formula that listed each ingredient and the qualities of that ingredient. I guess I should reconsider how that might be misleading. I didn't state the soap had antioxidants but rather listed the ingredients with each of their properties.



It's my understanding that if you do this, you're making claims about your soap that technically puts it in the "drug" category, and thus required to get review/approval from the FDA.  Check this out: http://blog.mariegale.com/fda-cracking-down-on-cosmetic-product-claims/

To be on the safe side, I think it's better not to say ANYTHING like that, and especially no remarks about what your soap can "do" (moisturize, treat eczema, cure cancer, etc.).


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (Apr 15, 2015)

Good point. I don't want to mislead. And I do not state these qualities on my packaging. I know not to use words other than, soap. But I use ingredient description on my Etsy page to educate people on the ingredients. Feel free to take a look for me. I'd love feedback (oops am I sure I want to ask this  be easy on me please)


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## hmlove1218 (Apr 15, 2015)

HappyHomeSoapCo said:


> Good point. I don't want to mislead. And I do not state these qualities on my packaging. I know not to use words other than, soap. But I use ingredient description on my Etsy page to educate people on the ingredients. Feel free to take a look for me. I'd love feedback (oops am I sure I want to ask this  be easy on me please)



That's still a no-no as far as the FDA is concerned. You can't tell someone the benefits of, let's say lavender, and then show them your lavender soap because your insinuating that your soap has those benefits.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 15, 2015)

galaxyMLP said:


> Lye oxidizes pretty much everything 100%. So why do I constantly read "this ingredient is great because its an antioxidant"?



NaOH and KOH are not oxidizers as far as I know. They undergo neutralization reactions with acids. Some of the fatty acids in oil or soap are prone to oxidation, which in the case of soap causes discoloration. Antioxidants can potentially slow or prevent that. The question is, which substances are effective for that purpose in soap? There are a few that can help. Ideally, a bit of BHT would stabilize the soap pretty much permanently. Unfortunately, we have to cater to the latest fads or irrational fears or distorted information, so for marketing purposes we have to use much less effective substances. A common choice from the realm of nature is rosemary oleoresin extract (ROE).

It would be a shock if any antioxidants in soap, good or bad, natural or man-made, had any relevance to the human body from product usage.


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## JBot (Apr 16, 2015)

hmlove1218 said:


> That's still a no-no as far as the FDA is concerned. You can't tell someone the benefits of, let's say lavender, and then show them your lavender soap because your insinuating that your soap has those benefits.



Exactly.  If you read through that link I posted, you'll see that it talks about that very thing.  Unless you want your soap to be regulated as a drug, you can't talk about the benefits/properties of the ingredients, even if you're not directly stating that your soap has those properties.  You also can't reference scientific studies that talk about the properties of these ingredients.  Or post customer testimonials that talk about the medical-type improvements they experienced while using your product.

For example, on your Etsy shop (which is otherwise quite nice, I think!), you write:

"HAPPY TALLOW (pastured beef) ~ Rich in anti-aging antioxidants. Rich in vitamins A, D, E and K that nourish the skin directly. Easily absorbable as beef tallow closely resembles the human skin cell structure. Tightens and maintains integrity of skin cells. Promotes skin cell regeneration."

As lovely as that is, it's a perfect example of what NOT to do, even when it's true.  Why?  Because lots of people will (and do!) say things about their products that AREN'T true.  So the FDA makes you prove it before you can say it.  (In theory, anyway; they don't actually have the resources to chase after every crafter with a stick blender.)

This part "Tightens and maintains integrity of skin cells. Promotes skin cell regeneration." is especially problematic.

Yes, a lot of crafters -- and not just the small ones! -- still make these claims, directly or indirectly, and many of them do get away with it.  And I think this causes downstream problems for all of us.  Some customers are perfectly aware that many such claims are nonsense, and it taints their perception of EVERYBODY'S handcrafted soaps.  Or they don't know what's truth and what's fiction, and when the soap fails to make them taller/thinner/younger, again their view of these products is tainted.

Now, will Agent Smith be knocking on your door tomorrow?  Probably not.  But I personally am choosing to be very careful not to violate these rules.



topofmurrayhill said:


> Unfortunately, we have to cater to the latest fads or irrational fears or distorted information, so for marketing purposes we have to use much less effective substances.



THIS.  Amen.  Makes me tear my hair out.


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## Dorymae (Apr 16, 2015)

There is a middle ground here.  Its not just soap or drug.  You can chose to label as a cosmetic.  This gives you a little bit of "marketing appeal".  You can then say moisturizing, brightening, refreshing, and a lot more.  What you can not say is anything that implies it will treat an illness or medical condition.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (Apr 16, 2015)

Thanks for the feed back! Updating Etsy is my least favorite soapy thing to do. Once I came up with a format, a bunch of info to fill in the space, lol, I've just been copying/pasting with little updates here and there. I do like to share the qualities of my ingredients because I do choose them very carefully for very specific reasons. But I know it's a fine line. Am I worried about anyone knocking on my door? No, not now anyway. But I'm more concerned with how it affects our industry. So I will make some changes. 

Maybe it would be just as simple as stating, "these are the commonly believed qualities of each ingredient prior to becoming soap." Or something along those lines, maybe more descriptive.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (Apr 16, 2015)

JBot said:


> It's my understanding that if you do this, you're making claims about your soap that technically puts it in the "drug" category, and thus required to get review/approval from the FDA.  Check this out: http://blog.mariegale.com/fda-cracking-down-on-cosmetic-product-claims/
> 
> To be on the safe side, I think it's better not to say ANYTHING like that, and especially no remarks about what your soap can "do" (moisturize, treat eczema, cure cancer, etc.).



Well shoot, I just read the link you posted. We can't say a darn thing. That's frustrating. So I guess I'll change my Etsy ad to say, "here's my soap. It smells good so you should buy it. " lol


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## JBot (Apr 16, 2015)

Dorymae said:


> There is a middle ground here.  Its not just soap or drug.  You can chose to label as a cosmetic.  This gives you a little bit of "marketing appeal".  You can then say moisturizing, brightening, refreshing, and a lot more.  What you can not say is anything that implies it will treat an illness or medical condition.



Yes!  Excellent point.  I think this is what many of us end up doing.

But you still can't say "promotes skin cell regeneration," even when you're talking about the ingredient by itself and not your soap.  That's true not just on the label, but also on your website, Etsy, Facebook, brochure, business card, etc.

Knowing that many customers research the ingredients on their own helped me get over my disappointment about not being able to tout some of the fantastic contents of my soap in my (future, theoretical) marketing materials.

There is one requirement I'm pretty sure I'm going to willfully, knowingly violate: I don't think I'll be putting my home address on my label.  I think there's a bit of a work-around for that if you're in the phone book or online directory.


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## JBot (Apr 16, 2015)

JBot said:


> To be on the safe side, I think it's better not to say ANYTHING like that, and especially no remarks about what your soap can "do" (moisturize, treat eczema, cure cancer, etc.).



Self-correction: Dorymae is right, you CAN say moisturizing.  But nothing that treats/heals/cures/alters the body.  Only stuff related to cleansing and APPEARANCE.


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## HappyHomeSoapCo (Apr 16, 2015)

Ok. Thanks for all the info! And I agree, I don't like the address thing either.


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## JBot (Apr 16, 2015)

The "essential oils as cure-all" craze is totally out of control.  Some of the claims people make about them are beyond ridiculous.  ("ADHD?  Autism?  Brain tumors?  Here, sniff this lavender EO!"  I *wish *I were joking.)  So there's a part of me that's glad the FDA has these regulations.

Now if only the shills who fancy themselves doctors would actually follow the rules.

. . .waiting to see if I get stomped on for saying this. . .


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 16, 2015)

Oh gosh, yes, the essential oil thing floors me. I read an article the other day that said you could not be allergic to essential oils and that it was not humanly possible (they even had some bull scientific explanation for it...) Its very frustrating. 

Any yes, cosmetics are the middle ground. However, if you live in Florida like me, be careful because you need special applications, to register your products and have your facility checked out by the state. Also, you cant register your business in a home.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 16, 2015)

JBot said:


> The "essential oils as cure-all" craze is totally out of control.  Some of the claims people make about them are beyond ridiculous.  ("ADHD?  Autism?  Brain tumors?  Here, sniff this lavender EO!"  I *wish *I were joking.)  So there's a part of me that's glad the FDA has these regulations.



How do the EO suppliers get away with it? Look at Camden-Gray. Every time I want to read an EO description there I have to skim through so much hokum. It reads like a medical textbook for nitwits. Sorry, I'm willing to believe that EOs can be therapeutic, but it's too much and seems inappropriate for a retailer.

Did you know the that Tree oil is...

"_...antibiotic, antiseptic, antiviral, bactericide, cicatrizant, expectorant, fungicide, insecticide and sudorific. Tea tree has extensive applications in medicine and veterinary medicine (rarely, if ever, used on cats or birds, use caution). Its most important usage is to help the immune system fight off infectious diseases. Activates the white corpuscles to form a defense against invading organisms and helps to shorten the duration of illness. Indicated for influenza, cold sores, and gingivitis. A series of massage with this oil before surgery may help to fortify the body. Its strong antiviral and germicidal properties are useful in repeated infections. Its fungicidal properties help clear vaginal thrush and is of value with genital infections generally. Alleviates urinary tract problems such as cystitis. Gives relief to genital and anal itching as well as general itching from chicken pox to rashes caused by insect bites. Said to give some protection against x-ray therapy in breast cancer. It will apparently reduce scarring when applied before treatment as the protective film will guard against very deep penetration of the x-rays. Helps to ease otitis. Reduces pus in infected wounds. Clears blemishes caused by chicken pox and shingles. Useful with minor burns, sores, sunburn, ringworm, warts, tinea, herpes and athletes foot. Helpful with dry conditions of the scalp as well as dandruff._" :Kitten Love:

It's good to know that I can get my white corpuscles activated and get rid of that anal itch at the same time.


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 16, 2015)

That whole quote made me want to cry. Although there is some truth in there. You should not use it on cats or birds (EVER) and it is antibacterial (at least on non porous surfaces!!) Soon enough I think we will be seeing some law suits about this. This is the newest "snake oil" scheme. It makes me sad.

I love your response Top! :grin:


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 16, 2015)

I'm going to put it all over my baggage next time I fly so I can smuggle things more easily, thanks to the way it can stop x-rays.....................


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 16, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm going to put it all over my baggage next time I fly so I can smuggle things more easily, thanks to the way it can stop x-rays.....................


 
Oh my, I could not hold in the laughter when I read that one!!


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## hmlove1218 (Apr 16, 2015)

JBot said:


> There is one requirement I'm pretty sure I'm going to willfully, knowingly violate: I don't think I'll be putting my home address on my label.  I think there's a bit of a work-around for that if you're in the phone book or online directory.



You don't have to anymore! Though the PO box request was declined, you can now just list your city, state, and zip if your FULL address is listed in an online directory luke Yellowpages.


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## topofmurrayhill (Apr 16, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm going to put it all over my baggage next time I fly so I can smuggle things more easily, thanks to the way it can stop x-rays.....................



Hilarious!


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## The Efficacious Gentleman (Apr 16, 2015)

It would be funny if people didn't take all the claims seriously.  There are some really good ones in there, mixed with the utter rubbish.  Sigh, and sigh once more


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## kchaystack (Apr 16, 2015)

The Efficacious Gentleman said:


> I'm going to put it all over my baggage next time I fly so I can smuggle things more easily, thanks to the way it can stop x-rays.....................



As someone who used to do a lot of B&W film photography, nothing upsets security people at an airport as a film bag in your luggage.  I ran into it once.  I almost missed my plane because they held me so long to go thru my stuff.


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## zolveria (Apr 21, 2015)

VITAMIN E is  added when you are super fatting above 5 or are dealing with oil that half a short shelf life. vitamin E is added at 4-5 drops PP of oil. this will avoid DOS.

I WAS RAISED by a farmer daughter. and yes EO ARE beneficial. this book by Jethro Kloss BACK TO EDEN is what I go to.  Some people do not know the benefits of EO or and OIL AND TREES AND HERBS for that matter. It seems to me that SOME  Westerners are ignorant to this knowledge.  And in recent years have become more aware of all these beautiful benefits Islanders - Mid East and Asian countries secret weapons for aging and beauty. EG oil herbs etc. another example is Kambucha ( i laughed hard when my husband bought this home.) my great grandfather was making this for years and so his children and my mother. (SMH) again KNOWLEDGE it a valuable resource.


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 21, 2015)

I don't think anyone here is claiming that EO can't be a good thing (or even great for that matter) what I was saying is that many of the claims that have been made by EO companies are not true or in some cases harmful and false (like claiming that EO can be taken internally). I don't consider myself ignorant. I like to see science and research back claims and there seems to be a lack of that concerning essential oils and their efficacy pertaining to claims that certain companies have made.


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## not_ally (Apr 21, 2015)

I think eo's are great, I burn them in my diffuser pretty much every day.  I think they effect my mood, maybe that is based in something other than fact.  I use an ayurvedic hair oil treatment which totally changed my hair after I had surgery/had been sick after everything else had proved useless.

But I do think that facts have shown that you need to be informed in using them.  At minimum do not ingest them.  Or put them on your animals without great care and research (too much care/speculation for me, I would not do it.)  Some of them are unsafe to use b/c photosynthesizers, others are likely allergans/irritants, not good for pregant mothers or others with specialized medical conditions.  Just lots of reasons to be careful and well informed.


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## zolveria (Apr 21, 2015)

*Oh please forgive me if i have offended*



galaxyMLP said:


> I don't think anyone here is claiming that EO can't be a good thing (or even great for that matter) what I was saying is that many of the claims that have been made by EO companies are not true or in some cases harmful and false (lik,e claiming that EO can be taken internally). I don't consider myself ignorant. I like to see science and research back claims and there seems to be a lack of that concerning essential oils and their efficacy pertaining to claims that certain companies have made.



No one should take any EO internally. it is bad enough people are drinking herbs and such and taking regular medication Rx by there Doctor.  which changes the efficacy.

I do agree with what you have said. I was just speaking with regard to all EO herb and such that have been used for decades. and many things that are now being used in US that have been used for decades in other cultures.  This drive me bonkers. because it raises the price on things that I could find a cheap cost . 

Quinoa is not a EO but an example of what is going on. I used to get this a dollar a pound. Now it at ridiculously priced. Same with OILS etc.


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## galaxyMLP (Apr 21, 2015)

What you say is true. I really despise price mark ups due to this. And my mom always used eucalyptus oil in diffusers when we were sick. It works wonders. I'm definitely not disputing that or other known benefits. 

Also, there is some dispute on how well vitamin e works to hold DOS at bay.

This article talks about different additives to combat the formation of DOS. It says that as far as natural antioxidants go, ROE worked best. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...2TZZRGwYL5Fbp28xg&sig2=puzSSR5GnBa4OimuEfsSNA


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## Seawolfe (Apr 22, 2015)

I love ROE and have a totally unscientific theory that rosemary EO helps as an antioxidant (for the sake of the oils) in soap too. I have two 100% castilles that are over a year old, made with the same OO in the same way. The plain naked one (no color no scent no nothing) has some minor pale yellow spots on some bars - perhaps the beginning of DOS, though there is no smell. The ones that used comfrey and nettle infused OO and scented with rosemary EO are still perfect. I can't imagine that nettle and comfrey help to preserve soap oils.


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## DeeAnna (Apr 22, 2015)

The science-y types agree with you, Seawolfe! ROE works much better than vitamin E.


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## tbeck3579 (Apr 23, 2015)

I'm guessing I'm in the minority here, but I believe what I wash my skin with can have health implications, both good and bad.  Skin is the largest organ of the human body.  IMHO soap does stay on my skin long after I shower.  If soap doesn't stay on my skin why do I smell it on my skin the next day?  Why do my clothes smell like soap on laundry day, many days after I wore them?  I'm thinking about the things that show themselves on my skin after touch them, things that you can see.  For example, we have a lot of black walnut trees.  Peel a couple black walnuts without gloves and you will see their impact on your skin for a week (even bleach won't remove it).  Soap doesn't typically have dye in it so you can't see what is left behind, but plenty is left behind IMO.  At least my nose seems to think so, and the lack of dry flaky skin after using a good soap seems to indicate it is doing its job long after I take a shower.

I lived in Berlin when Chernobyl blew.  I had to laugh when they (government and media) advised taking a shower if you got caught in the rain.  Oh yes, showering will remove radiation from my skin (sarcasm)!  My skin is a living breathing organ that quickly absorbs moisture, vitamin D from the sun, oils, and nasty chemicals.  Why wouldn't it absorb the properties of my soap?   I use soap 1 or 2 times a day on my entire body -- 6 or more times a day on my hands.  I don't casually dismiss the things that are constantly in my "bubble" (pun intended).


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