# Lard V no Lard



## Lee242

Is there a benefit to using lard or not using lard in CP soap


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## earlene

To me the obvious benefit is you will have made a soap that is vegan/vegetarian friendly.  (If you keep other animal fats out of the soap.)


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## psfred

There are several ways to look at this.  The vegan/vegetarian point is quite valid -- raising animals for food is quite high in carbon emissions.

There are other things to consider though.  Lard makes are very nice, hard, long lasting bar of soap.  Also, lard is very similar to human fat, so it going to be the best superfat there is for skin conditioning (all jokes aside).

In terms of soaping, it also has a wide range of saponification rates -- cooler soaping results in longer "open time" for swirls, colors, and so forth which can be pretty handy if you want a complicated bar.  If you want it cooked and done for a simple soap, higher temps will get it ready faster.

Pure lard makes a very white soap, too.  Will discolor some FOs though, as I found out yesterday.

It is cheap, readily available, and easy to work with.

Personal choice as far as I'm concerned.


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## Obsidian

For me, nothing compares to lard. It makes a wonderful creamy soap that is nice to the skin.

I'll always used lard, it's by far my favorite soaping oil.


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## MySoapyHeart

After finding lard at a store in Sweden (as lard can`t be found anywhere I live) it is my favourite oil to use. It makes a lovely soap, mild and creamy, superb for those who suffers from dry skin and bring hardness to soap instead of coconut, for those who are very sensitive to coconut oil. 

Also, every recipe you add some lard to, will benefit from it.

It is inexpensive, and also, to use the lard and not throw it away after the meat has been saved is just common sense, as something so valuable will not go to waste. 

In conclusion: No matter how many vegetarians or vegans this world will produce, there will always be people who see the benefit of using lard, and feel the difference.

I have lard recipes and I have vegan recipes. I love them all, but for different reasons.


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## Rune

MySoapyHeart said:


> After finding lard at a store in Sweden (as lard can`t be found anywhere I live)



Haha, I definately understand your problem extremely well. I'm a Norwegian too, and yes, here is absolutely nothing to be found, apart from very cheap olive oil and rapeseed oil. It is better in Sweden, but not very much. I was looking for swedish coconut oil, thought it maybe would be cheaper than Delfiafett (expensive Norwegian coconut oil), but could not find any hard oils, only butter, like cow's butter, or what it is called. And the liquid oils are way cheaper here than in Sweden. I forgot to check if swedish lye could be cheaper. 

But yes, here is nothing to be found nowhere. Only at online stores abroad. Which is almost impossible to buy from since we can not legally shop for more than eqivalent to $44 (350 NOK) INCLUDED shipping. Otherwise it will be expensive in customs and VAT. And what is $44 dollars when you need like everything? But luckily, some shops do like to cheat and send it in a private name and write "Happy birthday" or something on the parcel, and send the invoice by e-mail.

I have seen somthing like lard or lard-ish. But I can't find it anymore. It was called Smult. Now they have only Flott Matfett. But if I don't remember wrong, Smult was lard or tallow (I don't know the difference).

By the way, I think Flott Matfett is quite good. It contains shea fat, coconut fat and rapeseed oil. I think shea fat is the same as or almost the same as shea butter, just in a cheaper and industrial quality, maybe? Not that Flott Matfett is cheap, but anyway, since we have nothing else, and it is cheaper than Delfiafett. I think I will write to them and ask about the percentages of each fat (it's not said on the package), so that lye can be calculated. And I will let you know if I find out.

I tried to find stearic acid. Of course impossible. So I bought a candle instead  It said 100% stearin on the package. So I just melted it and used it. I had to throw the soap away anyway, it was a disaster like no other! Not the candle, but everything else in the soap.


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## Susie

Lard makes excellent soap.  You would have to try it to understand how different it is from a vegan/vegetarian soap. 

However, to those who say that raising meat is ruining our eco system, that may be so, I am not arguing that.  BUT, lard is a by-product of that meat industry.  No one is raising pigs to get lard.  We are, by purchasing lard, keeping it out of the land fills.  And we are making some dandy soap with that by product.


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## styarr

Once you go lard you never go back lol, it's in my main recipe now and it's so creamy and moisturizing. I love it.


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## earlene

styarr said:


> Once you go lard you never go back lol, it's in my main recipe now and it's so creamy and moisturizing. I love it.



Not true for everyone.  I do not prefer lard.  I use it for some soap for my family, but do not prefer it for myself.  I am much happier with my non-animal fat recipes.


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## BrewerGeorge

I'm going back and forth on lard. I like how it behaves when soaping and I like it's contribution to a balanced recipe with hard oils around 50%. The problem is that I can't get a consistent source that I can be sure won't smell. I've tried Armour and Snowcap (?... the blue one) and it seems that a third to a half are gonna smell in the finished soap. 

You might remember that I made all those scent trials this spring so I've made a lot of soap this year - more than 30 lbs since New Years. As trials, they're scented heavy, but some of them are just overwhelmed by porkiness. I'm using an Aqua d'Gio clone now that doesn't smell like anything in the shower but lard. (Luckily the intended scent lingers after the shower.) 

And yes, of course I know not to overheat or mistreat the lard. Heck, I refrigerate ALL my oils all the time. I've checked "best by" dates to find the freshest available, too. I just can't seem to trust a particular tub isn't going to smell like wild boar. 

OTOH, tallow and palm are consistent. They don't stink, and they make opaque, white bars without Ti. They have a bit less working time for swirls, but the end result is awfully nice. 

For now, I'm limiting lard  to about 25%.


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## KristaY

I tried using lard once. I bought it at my local grocery, exp date about 6 months away, and made several small test batches. Every one developed DOS and strong rancid smell at about 8 weeks. When they were 4 weeks old I began testing in the shower and I didn't like it. I definitely smelled the piggy-ness in the steam and it changed the scent of the FO/EO. I'm sure it was a bad batch of lard I bought but it really annoyed me. That's one reason I won't try it again. The other reason is I have many family members & friends that are vegetarian.

I'm not morally opposed to lard at all. I'm an unashamed carnivore and like the principle of lard being used since it's a byproduct of the pork industry. I wish I liked it in soap but I just don't.  

In baking it's a whole different story. My favorite pie crusts and biscuits are made with leaf lard. Unfortunately I can't make them for family gatherings!


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## SunRiseArts

I like all oils.  I like to try everything.  I am somewhat a vegan, although not for any altruistic idea.  I just cannot being myself to eat those things, but I enjoy milk, eggs, and many by products (specially ice cream!).  Personally, I am not a big believer in the issues of carbon emissions as lately being claimed, but here are a couple of good article s/posts on why is a good idea to use lard, and how some vegan soaps that include palm could do more harm to the environment.

http://www.holisticblendssoap.com/s...environment-and-lard-soap-can-kill-yousort-of

http://www.lovinsoap.com/2012/06/were-going-palm-oil-free/


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## SunRiseArts

KristaY said:


> I tried using lard once. I bought it at my local grocery, exp date about 6 months away, and made several small test batches. Every one developed DOS and strong rancid smell at about 8 weeks. When they were 4 weeks old I began testing in the shower and I didn't like it. I definitely smelled the piggy-ness in the steam and it changed the scent of the FO/EO. I'm sure it was a bad batch of lard I bought but it really annoyed me. That's one reason I won't try it again. The other reason is I have many family members & friends that are vegetarian.
> 
> I'm not morally opposed to lard at all. I'm an unashamed carnivore and like the principle of lard being used since it's a byproduct of the pork industry. I wish I liked it in soap but I just don't.
> 
> In baking it's a whole different story. My favorite pie crusts and biscuits are made with leaf lard. Unfortunately I can't make them for family gatherings!


 
Maybe the brand you used?


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Clearly, from all the comments, you will just have to give it a go and see for yourself.  It is really worth getting enough for a couple of batches to see what you think of it - there are too many people on either side of the fence to decide just on other peoples' experience.

Personally, I love soaps with lard in.  Heat it very gently and only as much as it needs to melt.


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## Susie

Depending on the batch size, I heat either in the microwave or a crock pot.  Either way, I warm just enough to melt about 2/3 of the solid oils, then I stick blend the oils, then warm about 15-20 seconds, stick blend a bit more, repeat until it is just almost clear.  Then I just wait, there is enough carry-over heat to finish melting the rest.  The second it is clear, I start adding lye.


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## reinbeau

Lard makes wonderful soap.  I have never, ever had an issue with DOS in lard, unless it was 100% lard I'd suspect another oil before I suspected lard.  As for 'carbon footprint' and raising animals, they are raised, and exist (that we raise them in deplorable conditions is a whole 'nother rant), using the lard, which is a byproduct that gets tossed, is a good thing.  I will say I use lard raised by good people who treat their hogs well.  It's all in the sourcing.....


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## Obsidian

I've made 100% lard soap twice and it takes well over a year before the tiniest spot of DOS showed up. I use armour lard


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## SparksnFlash

Ah, the mental and ethical gymnastics I've gone through with that question.

Started out as wanting to do vegetarian. if not vegan soaps exclusively.  However, not long into the processes, I learned about the rainforest issues with palm oil.  UGH!  So used only 'sustainable' palm oil thereafter.

One day I just wanted to make some soap (needed some post-parental visit de-stressing) but didn't have any palm.  In the refrigerator was some lard that Mom had left.  What the heck, it was already there, used it and it made a nice soap.

After that day I thought a lot about the lard v palm quandary.    I still haven't found a solid meaning for 'sustainable', and the rainforest apparently continues to dwindle.  Cows, pigs and other animals deserve life, but by the time I get the lard, it's a bit late for the animal, and as Susie wrote, they're not raising the pigs (or other animals) for the fat.  Also, animals have been farting since animals have existed and will continue to do so oblivious to their impact on the environment.  

There's a lot more my brain went through, and it actually held up my soap making for a time.  (I tend to t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶ ̶m̶u̶c̶h̶  obsess.)   It seems that soap making requires a bit of moral relativism either way.  

Now I use lard (tallow) primarily, palm occasionally for vegetarian/vegan customers, and hope that my soap is helping and not hurting to the best of my ability. So, for me, it's to each his/her own going forward in the marvel that is saponification.


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## penelopejane

Lard is not cheap in Australia. 
I don't like the additives they use to preserve it. 
I have many issues with lard in soap and would not use it.


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## Ivanstein

Is it impossible in the Scandinavian countries and Australia to get pork fat from a butcher and render your own lard? It's how my grandma made soap back in the day


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## Zany_in_CO

1) You can sub Lard for Palm or Shea Butter in any recipe (recalculate lye)
2) Lard 'sticks' scent better than just about anything I can think of.
3) Oakmoss absolute neutralizes the odor of lard in CP soap. (Also a great anchor for EO blends.)
4) Pediatric nurses around the turn of the last century cleaned new-borns with lard. 
5) Great laundry soap / stain stick at 0% lye discount/superfat
6) Pretty, hard white bar as a single oil soap; takes color well.
7) Good for skin problems, including acne and eczema. 
8) Cleansing, conditioning, moisturizing.


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## penelopejane

Ivanstein said:


> Is it impossible in the Scandinavian countries and Australia to get pork fat from a butcher and render your own lard? It's how my grandma made soap back in the day



You could do that but i think people in the forum have discovered that after all the work the amount of fat you get at the end is much, much more expensive than excellent quality OO.

In 1884 lever bros started making soap from palm and vegetable oil rather than tallow or lard. That's when the modern industrial soap revolution took off because the product was so much nicer. The old ways aren't necessarily the best.


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## dixiedragon

On the ethical questions - I would love to see somebody do the math of how much cropland, water, etc it takes to produce 1 ounce (or whatever measure) of lard vs 1 ounce of shea butter, canola oil, etc. Also keep in mind that most vegetable oils have to go through mechanical and chemical processes, vs animal fats.


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## biarine

I like the feel of the lard soap but I don't like the smell it smell piggy that's only I can complain over lard.


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## Zany_in_CO

biarine said:


> I like the feel of the lard soap but I don't like the smell it smell piggy that's only I can complain over lard.


Biarine, as I mentioned above, Oakmoss Absolute neutralizes the odor of animals fats. With so many "lardinators" on this forum, I'm surprised no one if them seems to know that.    I learned that on another forum --- waaaaaay back in 2004 when I first started soaping.


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## biarine

Zany_in_CO said:


> Biarine, as I mentioned above, Oakmoss Absolute neutralizes the odor of animals fats. With so many "lardinators" on this forum, I'm surprised no one if them seems to know that.    I learned that on another forum --- waaaaaay back in 2004 when I first started soaping.




I got oakmoss  before but I never tried to use them in soaping. Thank you for the information because some scent didn't take off the scent of lard.


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## jcandleattic

earlene said:


> Not true for everyone.  I do not prefer lard.  I use it for some soap for my family, but do not prefer it for myself.  I am much happier with my non-animal fat recipes.



This is me too. When I use soap with lard in it my face breaks out. And I HATE soaping with lard. (of course I've only soaped with it a handful of times many years ago... but hated every minute of it.)

It's true it takes forever to trace (I'd say it rivals 100% OO soaps) but it stinks (IMO) and my soaps with lard got ash on them. Every single one of the batches with lard got ash, where as 95% of my non-lard soaps never have.  

This is just my experience though, and appears to not be the norm.


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## Zany_in_CO

jcandleattic said:


> It's true it takes forever to trace (I'd say it rivals 100% OO soaps) but it stinks (IMO) and my soaps with lard got ash on them. Every single one of the batches with lard got ash, where as 95% of my non-lard soaps never have.


Just curious, Janel... I'm wondering if you soap lard "room temp"? water discount? high superfat? To my mind, all of these would contribute to slow trace, soda ash, and possibly DOS due to unsaponified fat (not sure).


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## jcandleattic

Zany_in_CO said:


> Just curious, Janel... I'm wondering if you soap lard "room temp"? water discount? high superfat? To my mind, all of these would contribute to slow trace, soda ash, and possibly DOS due to unsaponified fat (not sure).



Slight water discount, 5-6% superfat (if I remember correctly), and slightly warmer than RT - I believe it was closer to about 90-95° temp when I soaped with it. 
Never got DOS, just ash - not deep, just enough to notice it was there. And yeah, took FOREVER to trace. I'm thinking at least 5-10 minutes with having to stop and hand stir every few minutes to give my stick blender a break. 
I'm not sure if I ever posted my pics of my lard soap from back then on here or not. I can look and see. 
Even with breaking out, I would have probably continued to make lard soaps for my customer base (I do get asked for them every now and then) but since I do break out, and hate the process, I just don't make them.


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## reinbeau

penelopejane said:


> You could do that but i think people in the forum have discovered that after all the work the amount of fat you get at the end is much, much more expensive than excellent quality OO.
> 
> In 1884 lever bros started making soap from palm and vegetable oil rather than tallow or lard. That's when the modern industrial soap revolution took off because the product was so much nicer. The old ways aren't necessarily the best.


I could not disagree with you more.  I love lard.  I love tallow.  I render my own and I get plenty for my efforts.  They started making it from palm and vegetable oil because it was *cheaper*, not because it was better.

I've also never had a piggy smell at all.  Low heat dry rendering seems to yield the best lard, to my nose.  No need to neutralize anything.


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## Zany_in_CO

penelopejane said:


> You could do that but i think people in the forum have discovered that after all the work the amount of fat you get at the end is much, much more expensive than excellent quality OO.


Not to be argumentative, not at all, but just to be clear, pig fat is free for those who don't mind the time & trouble it takes to render it. The profit margin makes it well worth it.

For the sake of the OP, comparing lard to OO is like comparing apples to oranges. I'm just sayin', they both have *important *but* different* roles to play in creating a soap formula, i.e., lard, tallow, palm, shea butter serve basically the same purpose and can be subbed one for the other. 

Olive oil, on the other hand, has the unique ability of bringing all oils/fats in the formula into saponification. One could say there is no sub for OO altho you can manipulate the % of several vegetable oils to match OO's unique composition. 

Also, I feel I should mention that "excellent quality OO" is hard to access in the USA -- according to the OO Council at UC Davis, 85% of the EVOO on grocers shelves in 2016 was adulterated.



penelopejane said:


> In 1884 lever bros started making soap from palm and vegetable oil  rather than tallow or lard. That's when the modern industrial soap  revolution took off because the product was so much nicer.


True, PJ, as far as that goes. However, later, when glycerin was required for the war effort, it was removed from soap and for Lever Bros (and others) "soap" became "bars", i.e., "Beauty Bar", "Sports Bar", "Deodorant Bar", etc. when detergents and synthetics were then introduced to provide the same cleansing power and other qualities offered by good old-fashion soap!

Old ways are not always the best. I agree. But, I hope we can also agree, neither are new ways. That's why so many people are flocking to forums like SMF. Whether old fashion lard/tallow soaps are better than all vegetable oils is pretty much a moot point. We all have our preferences and will buy/make whichever we prefer. 

It strikes me as very funny -- what goes around, comes around. 

And so it goes.


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## BrewerGeorge

Zany_in_CO said:


> ...
> Also, I feel I should mention that "excellent quality OO" is hard to access in the USA -- according to the OO Council at UC Davis, 85% of the EVOO on grocers shelves in 2016 was adulterated.
> ...



That should be 69% in 2010 from UC Davis.  It seems there has been a lot of improvement in recent years as well.  The North American Olive Oil Assn now says that 98% of olive oil on US store shelves is authentic, based on hundreds of test a year. (Link)


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## earlene

BrewerGeorge said:


> That should be 69% in 2010 from UC Davis.  It seems there has been a lot of improvement in recent years as well.  The North American Olive Oil Assn now says that 98% of olive oil on US store shelves is authentic, based on hundreds of test a year. (Link)



I would edit that to say North America rather than the US. 

BTW, thank you *BG* for this more current link!


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## penelopejane

Zany, 
Since it is an international forum we should try and differentiate. You can't get large amounts of pig fat free on Oz (according to my butcher) unless you kill your own pig. 

I think it's only bars that have synthetic detergents that are called 'beauty bars'. Both commercial 'soap' and commercial 'beauty bars' have the glycerine removed. According to google so may not be accurate. 

Australia grows a lot of OO and we haven't had the 'adulterated' olive oil scare to the extent you have. Although there is still some debate about imported EVOO. We have cheap good quality Australian grown OO readily available. 

I agree there are benefits to be found in all fats and we are free to use whatever we want to make beautiful handmade soap! 

I think in Oz there is a mindset from people against lard and tallow in handmade soap.  Tallow is used in a lot of commercial soap here. 
I've learnt from my parents that using certain things and eating certain food is "depression food". This mindset continues here. 
We seem to be fussier (or more pretentious!) than those in the US about animal fats, preservatives, additives and a whole lot of other stuff. 

So I don't think there can be a blanket statement about lard for all on the forum. 
PJ


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## toxikon

Just to add to the interesting conversation - where I live in Canada, if soap sold in stores is not syndet, the main ingredient is usually tallow, it seems. Since I started making soap, I've been fascinated with picking up commercial soap and reading the ingredients label. I almost always see that if it's not a syndet bar, "sodium tallowate" is the star ingredient! So on this side of the world, it seems to be pretty standard to make soap with tallow - I assume because the price is right for manufacturers. Just thought I'd share that little tidbit!


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## earlene

penelopejane said:


> Zany,
> Since it is an international forum we should try and differentiate. You can't get large amounts of pig fat free on Oz (according to my butcher) unless you kill your own pig.
> PJ



And even then it's not 'free'.  I live near what claims the dubious distinction of being the 'hog capital of the world' (the truth of that claim, is questionable, but they do claim it) and there is no 'free' lard where I live.  I wouldn't want it even if it were free. I have no desire to render any animal fats, let alone lard, and certainly have no desire to have my house smell like rendering lard for however long the smell would linger!  In any case, I doubt the local hog or pig farmers view any part of their animals as 'free.'  Not even the local meat choppers give away bones for free to dog owners anymore, let alone any other parts.  They use it or sell it all, including the blood for blood sausage.  My apologies to anyone who works in the butchering industry, some of my family have done.  I don't like the products and the many stories they have told me leave me cold.


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## Obsidian

Zany_in_CO said:


> Biarine, as I mentioned above, Oakmoss Absolute neutralizes the odor of animals fats. With so many "lardinators" on this forum, I'm surprised no one if them seems to know that.    I learned that on another forum --- waaaaaay back in 2004 when I first started soaping.



Being a lardinator, I've never had piggy smelling soap once I learned not to overheat the lard when melting it down. Even my first couple batches that did smell some, lost the piggy scent with a cure.

I use armour brand only, other brands do smell a bit more. I'm way too lazy to render my own lard when it can be bought. I do however have to render tallow if I want to use it since stores here do not carry it.

Rendering shouldn't make your house smell bad at all. When I rendered my tallow, it didn't smell much different than cooking hamburgers.


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## earlene

But I don't cook hamburgers.  And I don't cook bacon either.  In my experience, all meats I ever cooked had a smell, as do most other foods.  But meats tend to stick around in the house longer than vegetables, unless I burn them.  I cook fish and I cook chicken and occasionally beef, and rarely pork loin for my husband, but the odor does linger in the house, depending on how I cook it, of course.  I cooked organ meats when I was young, and those odors were quite long lasting and permeated my house.  If I were ever to render fats, I'd probably want to do it outdoors for that very reason (odors).  I mean if it ever gets to the point that I have to slaughter an animal in order to survive, well yes, I'd probably make use of the fat in some fashion as well and why not make soap with it?  But then again, if I had to eat the meat to survive, I'd probably eat the fat, too.


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## Zany_in_CO

BrewerGeorge said:


> That should be 69% in 2010 from UC Davis.  It  seems there has been a lot of improvement in recent years as well.  The  North American Olive Oil Assn now says that 98% of olive oil on US  store shelves is authentic, based on hundreds of test a year. (Link)


That  link is from the North American Olive Oil Association. As importers and  purveyors of imported olive oil, they have a vested interest in  discrediting the California Olive Oil Commission at UC Davis. So as not  to be duped, it might be better to use an independent source such as  Business Insider, June 2017:
http://www.businessinsider.com/where-how-to-buy-real-extra-virgin-olive-oil-2017-6

I've  been following this fraud on the American public ever since I lost 6  months of sales due to adulterated olive oil in 2007. It wasn't until  the owner of Soapers Choice stepped in and offered to test my OO that I  finally learned about "fake olive oil". I sent in two samples, one from a  reliable local supplier and one from a gallon tin I bought from a  Natural Food Store. Both tested as having the same SAP value as soy oil! 

I could write _ad nauseam_ about this subject but this isn't the time or topic of this thread... sorry for the hijack everyone.


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## biarine

earlene said:


> But I don't cook hamburgers.  And I don't cook bacon either.  In my experience, all meats I ever cooked had a smell, as do most other foods.  But meats tend to stick around in the house longer than vegetables, unless I burn them.  I cook fish and I cook chicken and occasionally beef, and rarely pork loin for my husband, but the odor does linger in the house, depending on how I cook it, of course.  I cooked organ meats when I was young, and those odors were quite long lasting and permeated my house.  If I were ever to render fats, I'd probably want to do it outdoors for that very reason (odors).  I mean if it ever gets to the point that I have to slaughter an animal in order to survive, well yes, I'd probably make use of the fat in some fashion as well and why not make soap with it?  But then again, if I had to eat the meat to survive, I'd probably eat the fat, too.




In my country in Philippines our Lard hasn't piggy scent. I love it we cook using lard it's homemade but I can't understand why here in uk it's so piggy.


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## reinbeau

It's 'piggy' because they're rendering it at high heat.  It's that simple.  I won't beat a horse other than to say to each their own.  I enjoy lard and tallow in my soap, my customers do, and I know many, many soapers who will say the same.  We can get lard, we can render it if we're fortunate enough to have a local source, and really we shouldn't be made to feel we're making an inferior product because of what we use.  Did you know why Castile soap came about?  Because the superior animal fats used in soap were reserved for the upper class and peasants had to use olive oil.  Really.  But now we can ignore all that class stuff and just enjoy making soap with anything that strikes our fancy.  I truly despise Castile soap.  Others love it.  C'est la vie.


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## IrishLass

I've been an enthusiastic lardinator going on for about about 9 years now.

I remember well my first successful lard formula..... For an experiment, I made 2 identical soap formulas, the only difference between the two was that I used lard in the one and palm oil in the other. The lard version won hands-down amongst me and my circle of family/friends. It's hard to explain, but compared with the palm version, the lather of the lard version had more of a 3-dimensional creamy depth or body, or 'oomph' to it, if you will. The lather of palm version seemed more flat or 2-dimensional. 

Re: the oft talked-about piggy smell: Not once have I ever gotten a piggy smell from any of my lard batches in all the years I've been using lard. All that my peeps and I are able to smell in my lard soap is the FO..... even with the batch I accidentally overheated to 160F while melting it (due to being momentarily distracted). No oinkiness in the finished soap at all. For what it's worth, I've used both the Armour brand and also SnoCap brand and both have worked well for me without oinkiness. 

Over the years I've been a part of many threads/discussions on on a few  of the different soaping forums in regards to the piggy-smell issue that some folks experience and many others don't, and based on all of the experiences I've had the pleasure to read to date, I've become convinced that there may be more to the story than merely 'Brand X' is better than 'Brand Z' or 'soaping temperature A' is better than 'soaping temperature B' (although those can play a part as well)........ 

What I'm on about is that I think the scent receptors in our individual noses play a bigger part than we may realize, because many of the folks in those discussions who could smell the oinkiness in their soap, gave their oinkie soap to their hubbies or to their friends and family members for their opinions, and time and time again, the reports came back that no oinkiness could be detected by many of those that were given the suspect bars of soap. Some could smell it, but others could only smell the FO. 

The same kind of thing goes on with the scent of jasmine. To some it smells disgustingly like cat-pee, and to others it smells like the beautiful, sweet flower that it is.

To my SIL, skunk spray smells like freshly squeezed lemons. She rolls the windows down in the car and breathes deeply whenever we pass a dead skunk in the road, while the rest of us are turning blue from holding our breath. 


IrishLass


----------



## Arthur Dent

IrishLass said:


> To my SIL, skunk spray smells like freshly squeezed lemons. She rolls the windows down in the car and breathes deeply whenever we pass a dead skunk in the road, while the rest of us are turning blue from holding our breath.


Exactly! Like my brother.  To him skunk smells like chocolate.  Seriously.
And to me, sometimes skunk smells like coffee, and vise versa.


----------



## BrewerGeorge

I think Irish is right that some smell it more than others. 

I suppose I should be clear, too, since I was critical. I don't find the lard smell especially offensive; it just smells like lard to me. It reminds me of my grandmother's cooking  actually, so it's not _ bad_. But it IS pervasive when it's there.


----------



## lenarenee

penelopejane said:


> You could do that but i think people in the forum have discovered that after all the work the amount of fat you get at the end is much, much more expensive than excellent quality OO.
> 
> In 1884 lever bros started making soap from palm and vegetable oil rather than tallow or lard. That's when the modern industrial soap revolution took off because the product was so much nicer. The old ways aren't necessarily the best.[/QUOTE
> 
> Okay, I'm a lardinator. But as a lover of any good handmade bar of soap I'm happy to let makers choose their own ingredients. But your statement makes me wonder who said that soap was suddenly better after 1884, how was it proven that the veggie soaps were "better",  were the animal fats improperly stored (refrigeration in 1884??) therefore reduced quality of animal fat soap? Or was there some manufacturing process that improved the quality of soap that just happened to coincide with the switch from animal fats to veggie? Was lye more pure? Was calculating lye more exacting?
> 
> Yeah, the more I think about it. Animals fats versus veggie isn't an indicator of soap quality. Either fat can be of good or poor quality - which affects the outcome.  After that, it boils down to preference.


----------



## lenarenee

BrewerGeorge said:


> I think Irish is right that some smell it more than others.
> 
> I suppose I should be clear, too, since I was critical. I don't find the lard smell especially offensive; it just smells like lard to me. It reminds me of my grandmother's cooking  actually, so it's not _ bad_. But it IS pervasive when it's there.



If you need more guarantee of getting scentless lard, try Fannie and Flo on etsy. It's definitely more expensive, but you can contact them and ask for their less than "prime" lard which they sell about half the cost. It's still perfectly good food grade lard, but not as white. I haven't detected any scent so far in 2 years of ordering it. YMMV though.

Weird thing is, I found myself pulling a plain unscented bar of soap out, sniffed it and thought - lard. Flipped it over to look at my label - it was a bastille of oo, co, castor.   Made me wonder if fat/oils just get to the point where they smell like fats/oils.


----------



## Rune

Ivanstein said:


> Is it impossible in the Scandinavian countries and Australia to get pork fat from a butcher and render your own lard? It's how my grandma made soap back in the day



Thank you for the idea! I have never thought of it. But yes, that should definately not be impossible. In fact, we have a big meat factory in the nearest town, just 30 kilometers away from here. So they will definately have a lot of lard. Creativity in sourcing is the thing here, yes. So a big thank you!

I'm not 100% sure if I want to use lard, though. Not that I'm vegan or anything, but I don't know. I have to do some research on palm. Maybe that's not that bad after all. I read something Brambleberry wrote on palm and what the alternatives are, and that made me think. So I have to do my own research. Palm is available as vegetable ghee from immigrant shops. I don't remember if it is 100% palm. But I bought ghee once, and it was so rock hard it was impossible to get out of the box. Almost as hard as a candle, if not just that hard.

Yesterday I was looking all over the internet to see if I could find coconut and other types of harder fat from a norwegian seller, that sold in bulk for lower prices. Industrial quality, not health food quality. I found, but they sold only to businesses. I have to call them, maybe they can sell to me a small amount. But suddenly came to think, we actually have a BIG bakery where I live! I mean a big industrial bakery that delivers to grocery stores in the region. I might be able to buy some this and that from them. And they are in walking distance from where I live. 

So yes, I guess many thing are available, but not that obvious in your face at grocery stores.

I bought olive oil and coconut fat yesterday at the grocery store, because I was planning to make soap. But I could not find out how to do it and/or decide on HP or CP for an oatmeal, milk, honey soap with palm stearin (a candle, yes I know...) and maximum water discount, so no soap yesterday. But the olive oil used to be cheap, and still is relatively cheap. But they have upped the price on their cheapest olive with 40%!!! Yes, 40% just like that, boom. That was in one shop, and in the other the price was upped a lot as well, but I don't remember the new price. But it was around 40 something. But luckily it is still not very expensive. I think something have happened in the European olive oil market. Maybe season, too much demand or who knows.


----------



## biarine

Anyone did use goose fat in soaping because I got 500 g but I never try them.


----------



## penelopejane

lenarenee said:


> Okay, I'm a lardinator. But as a lover of any good handmade bar of soap I'm happy to let makers choose their own ingredients. But your statement makes me wonder who said that soap was suddenly better after 1884, how was it proven that the veggie soaps were "better",  were the animal fats improperly stored (refrigeration in 1884??) therefore reduced quality of animal fat soap? Or was there some manufacturing process that improved the quality of soap that just happened to coincide with the switch from animal fats to veggie? Was lye more pure? Was calculating lye more exacting?
> .



I've read a couple of books now that said soap took off then. Maybe it was the process that made nice bars of soap or the industrialisation of the process that made soap affordable for the masses, I don't know. Maybe home made soap didn't have much FO and the commercial one did. 

Animal fats haven't been dismissed! Tallow is a common ingredient in Oz soaps. 

I think they perfected the technique in 1884 that helped soap become popular.


----------



## BrewerGeorge

penelopejane said:


> ...
> Animal fats haven't been dismissed! Tallow is a common ingredient in Oz soaps. I think they perfected the technique in 1884 that helped make it become popular.



Tallow is also the main ingredient in most mass-market soaps in the US.  Irish Spring, Ivory, Zest (which was syndet when I was a kid...), Dial, and Lever all have Tallowate as one of the top 3 ingredients.


----------



## SparksnFlash

BrewerGeorge said:


> Tallow is also the main ingredient in most mass-market soaps in the US.  Irish Spring, Ivory, Zest (which was syndet when I was a kid...), Dial, and Lever all have Tallowate as one of the top 3 ingredients.



My guess is they learned to advertise better and selling off the glycerin made soap cheaper for the general population to purchase.


----------



## cherrycoke216

Rune said:


> Palm is available as vegetable ghee from immigrant shops. I don't remember if it is 100% palm. But I bought ghee once, and it was so rock hard it was impossible to get out of the box. Almost as hard as a candle, if not just that hard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I bought olive oil and coconut fat yesterday at the grocery store, because I was planning to make soap. But I could not find out how to do it and/or decide on HP or CP for an oatmeal, milk, honey soap with palm stearin (a candle, yes I know...) and maximum water discount, so no soap yesterday. But the olive oil used to be cheap, and still is relatively cheap. But they have upped the price on their cheapest olive with 40%!!! Yes, 40% just like that, boom. That was in one shop, and in the other the price was upped a lot as well, but I don't remember the new price. But it was around 40 something. But luckily it is still not very expensive. I think something have happened in the European olive oil market. Maybe season, too much demand or who knows.




Rune, be sure to check ingredient list of the vegetable ghee. Sometimes it can be hydrogenated soy bean oil, Palm, or palm kernel oil...etc.


----------



## Obsidian

biarine said:


> Anyone did use goose fat in soaping because I got 500 g but I never try them.



I used duck fat at 10%. Not sure if it added anything to the soap, its been awhile since I tried a bar. Was neat using a fat from a animal that I helped raise and butcher though.


----------



## biarine

Obsidian said:


> I used duck fat at 10%. Not sure if it added anything to the soap, its been awhile since I tried a bar. Was neat using a fat from a animal that I helped raise and butcher though.




I like ducks, my father raise ducks too.


----------



## Dahila

I use lard 25% , tallow 20 % and my soaps never stink like animal fat,  Tons of people sniff on them, no one complained , even on the unscented ones


----------



## SunRiseArts

Zany_in_CO said:


> That link is from the North American Olive Oil Association. As importers and purveyors of imported olive oil, they have a vested interest in discrediting the California Olive Oil Commission at UC Davis. So as not to be duped, it might be better to use an independent source such as Business Insider, June 2017:
> http://www.businessinsider.com/where-how-to-buy-real-extra-virgin-olive-oil-2017-6
> 
> I've been following this fraud on the American public ever since I lost 6 months of sales due to adulterated olive oil in 2007. It wasn't until the owner of Soapers Choice stepped in and offered to test my OO that I finally learned about "fake olive oil". I sent in two samples, one from a reliable local supplier and one from a gallon tin I bought from a Natural Food Store. Both tested as having the same SAP value as soy oil!
> 
> I could write _ad nauseam_ about this subject but this isn't  the time or topic of this thread... sorry for the hijack everyone.


 

I posted an article about this a while back, but it had no traction.  I completely understand what you are saying about the OO.


----------



## Susie

Arthur Dent said:


> Exactly! Like my brother.  To him skunk smells like chocolate.  Seriously.
> And to me, sometimes skunk smells like coffee, and vise versa.



Smells like coffee to me, too, once it is the least bit old, that is.  Fresh skunk smell still smells like skunk.


----------



## Britannic

Most of my soaps are made from recipes containing over 25% lard. I superfat very low, since I'm skin sensitive to unsaponified lard and have made many unscented batches for family and friends. I regularly ask for feedback and no one has detected any "piggy" smell in the soap. My nose can detect some "off" odours, when others can't, like fish when it is more than a few hours old. I have detected a slight "off" odour in my lard based soaps that lets me know it is in it, but even that is usually gone after a few months in storage. No one else I know can smell the slight "off" odour in my soaps, so I don't worry about it. As Irish Lass says, the lard gives a wonderful, rich luxuriant creamy lather in a good recipe and it doesn't add extra drying in the soap like tallow or palm oil. My lard based soaps are the most popular I make. YMMV.


----------



## biarine

My husband called me a blood hound because I can smell a lot of things. Even I can smell when he had a crohn's  attack. I remembered I made 50% lard, 20% coconut, 20% olive oil and  10% castor oil. I scented it with vetiver EO as my favourite but when I using it I can't stand the scent ( blend of lardy and the earthiness of vetiver) It made my stomach rotates. But my husband and my friends like it so much and they can't smell the lardy at all. Believe me I am porkaholic I love pork so much mostly the belly pork but I can't stand the smell of lard, I am odd I think . But I will try to make lard soap again but I will scented it with spices and citrus such as, coriander, lemongrass, cardamom, cumin and sweet orange. Because when I cook my belly pork I use a lot of spices and smell delicious without porky smell.


----------



## IrishLass

biarine said:


> My husband called me a blood hound because I can smell a lot of things. Even I can smell when he had a crohn's attack. I remembered I made 50% lard, 20% coconut, 20% olive oil and 10% castor oil. I scented it with vetiver EO as my favourite but when I using it I can't stand the scent ( blend of lardy and the earthiness of vetiver) It made my stomach rotates. But my husband and my friends like it so much and they can't smell the lardy at all.


 
Your nose sounds a lot like my Hubby's. I often say he has a bionic nose and I sometimes jokingly ask him if he's _sure_ he's not pregnant, because the super ability with which he is able to detect smells that other's cannot, rivals the amazingly enhanced sensitivity that my own nose developed back when I was pregnant with our son.  Thankfully, soon after I gave birth my enhanced nasal super-powers gradually faded away and went back to normal (it was way too enhanced for my liking).

Anyway- his amazing super 'bionic' nose is not able to smell any piggy in my lard soaps. I normally use lard @ 25%, but I've used it as high as 65% (Susie's recipe) without any piggy coming through to him.


IrishLass


----------



## earlene

biarine said:


> My husband called me a blood hound because I can smell a lot of things. Even I can smell when he had a crohn's  attack. I remembered I made 50% lard, 20% coconut, 20% olive oil and  10% castor oil. I scented it with vetiver EO as my favourite but when I using it I can't stand the scent ( blend of lardy and the earthiness of vetiver) It made my stomach rotates. But my husband and my friends like it so much and they can't smell the lardy at all. Believe me I am porkaholic I love pork so much mostly the belly pork but I can't stand the smell of lard, I am odd I think . But I will try to make lard soap again but I will scented it with spices and citrus such as, coriander, lemongrass, cardamom, cumin and sweet orange. Because when I cook my belly pork I use a lot of spices and smell delicious without porky smell.



I can absolutely identify with you, *biarine*!  I have always been able to smell a change in both my sons' body chemistry when they are sick, even before they know it themselves.  When I was young (and they were young), I thought it was simply a 'mom thing' and nothing unusual.  I thought the 'mom can smell oncoming sickness' thing had gone away until a few years ago, visiting my son in California, one day he was sitting in my car and I smelled infection.  (Of course, I am also a trained nurse, retired RN.)  I asked him if he had any open infections on his foot (he has only one foot) and he asked 'Why?  Do you smell something?'  Yes, he had a severe infection and wasn't even aware of it.  He ended up hospitalized for a month to save his foot.  Probably any nurse would have recognized the odor, but the fact remains.


----------



## biarine

IrishLass said:


> Your nose sounds a lot like my Hubby's. I often say he has a bionic nose and I sometimes jokingly ask him if he's _sure_ he's not pregnant, because the super ability with which he is able to detect smells that other's cannot, rivals the amazingly enhanced sensitivity that my own nose developed back when I was pregnant with our son.  Thankfully, soon after I gave birth my enhanced nasal super-powers gradually faded away and went back to normal (it was way too enhanced for my liking).
> 
> Anyway- his amazing super 'bionic' nose is not able to smell any piggy in my lard soaps. I normally use lard @ 25%, but I've used it as high as 65% (Susie's recipe) without any piggy coming through to him.
> 
> 
> IrishLass




Yes I think so we have a bionic nose .
I can't stand the scent, I feel nauseous when I use it in warm water.  My husband can't smell the piggy but I can very strongly.


----------



## biarine

earlene said:


> I can absolutely identify with you, *biarine*!  I have always been able to smell a change in both my sons' body chemistry when they are sick, even before they know it themselves.  When I was young (and they were young), I thought it was simply a 'mom thing' and nothing unusual.  I thought the 'mom can smell oncoming sickness' thing had gone away until a few years ago, visiting my son in California, one day he was sitting in my car and I smelled infection.  (Of course, I am also a trained nurse, retired RN.)  I asked him if he had any open infections on his foot (he has only one foot) and he asked 'Why?  Do you smell something?'  Yes, he had a severe infection and wasn't even aware of it.  He ended up hospitalized for a month to save his foot.  Probably any nurse would have recognized the odor, but the fact remains.




Wow Earlene I thought I am thevonly one who suffering in very sharp sense of smell. I am not a nurse but I work in healthcare. I can smell a person when her or his sugar is high and I can smell someone had urine infection or a person have some illness that I can't tell what is it.


----------



## dixiedragon

I can't speak to the availability of lard for rendering in the OP's country, but I do disagree with PenelopeJane on rendering. It's not difficult. If you find a free or cheap source of pig fat and they are willing to grind it small for you (or you can grind it yourself) it's simple to render it. 

I have had luck getting beef suet for rendering into tallow from grocery stores that do their own butchering. I haven't had luck with butcher shops, b/c they use their fat to make sausage, etc. Here in the US I've had luck with Winn-Dixie and with Earth Fare.


----------



## lenarenee

penelopejane said:


> I've read a couple of books now that said soap took off then. Maybe it was the process that made nice bars of soap or the industrialisation of the process that made soap affordable for the masses, I don't know. Maybe home made soap didn't have much FO and the commercial one did.
> 
> Animal fats haven't been dismissed! Tallow is a common ingredient in Oz soaps.
> 
> I think they perfected the technique in 1884 that helped soap become popular.



Are they a kind of "history of modern soap making?"  I'd love the titles for I think they'd be fascinating to read!


----------



## penelopejane

lenarenee said:


> Are they a kind of "history of modern soap making?"  I'd love the titles for I think they'd be fascinating to read!



I borrowed some books from the library while staying with my SIL about 800km away!  Don't remember the titles.  Can look in our library and I might recognise something.  Really just "how to make handmade soap" with history intro. 
Sorry.


----------



## Susie

earlene said:


> I can absolutely identify with you, *biarine*!  I have always been able to smell a change in both my sons' body chemistry when they are sick, even before they know it themselves.  When I was young (and they were young), I thought it was simply a 'mom thing' and nothing unusual.  I thought the 'mom can smell oncoming sickness' thing had gone away until a few years ago, visiting my son in California, one day he was sitting in my car and I smelled infection.  (Of course, I am also a trained nurse, retired RN.)  I asked him if he had any open infections on his foot (he has only one foot) and he asked 'Why?  Do you smell something?'  Yes, he had a severe infection and wasn't even aware of it.  He ended up hospitalized for a month to save his foot.  Probably any nurse would have recognized the odor, but the fact remains.



Whew, thank goodness I am not the only one!  Seriously!  I have called more than one doctor telling them that patient X has some sort of infection before they had any signs or symptoms, and can we do cultures?  There were lots of doctors that just humored me that did not question me after they came back with some nasty bacteria.

And I could not only smell sickness on my kids, I could sometimes identify it before they even knew they were sick.  

Can anyone else but me smell when someone takes Tylenol?


----------



## biarine

My own conclusion why it's a big difference between our lard in Philippines than lard in uk because we grow our Pig totally free range organic we don't inject with antibiotics or steroids. They grew slowly and lots of exercise. Believe me when we rendered our lard and in use it in frying in high heat but still no lardy smell. I love to use to fried my eggs or fish. It sad because a lot of my friends likes the feel of soap with lard on.


----------



## reinbeau

biarine said:


> My own conclusion why it's a big difference between our lard in Philippines than lard in uk because we grow our Pig totally free range organic we don't inject with antibiotics or steroids. They grew slowly and lots of exercise. Believe me when we rendered our lard and in use it in frying in high heat but still no lardy smell. I love to use to fried my eggs or fish. It sad because a lot of my friends likes the feel of soap with lard on.


Don't be sad.  You and your friends are smart and right about lard.  I also get my lard from local sources, mainly a friend up in Maine who raises his own.  He takes wonderful care of them, they get to live good piggie lives before they're harvested for food, and the meat from them is delicious, nothing like what comes in those styrofoam packages at the supermarket.  Rendered low and slow that lard never has a piggy smell.  What bothers me the most about this thread is that those who have used lard and know of the wonderful nature of it in soap are being made to feel badly about their choices.  Don't


----------



## biarine

reinbeau said:


> Don't be sad.  You and your friends are smart and right about lard.  I also get my lard from local sources, mainly a friend up in Maine who raises his own.  He takes wonderful care of them, they get to live good piggie lives before they're harvested for food, and the meat from them is delicious, nothing like what comes in those styrofoam packages at the supermarket.  Rendered low and slow that lard never has a piggy smell.  What bothers me the most about this thread is that those who have used lard and know of the wonderful nature of it in soap are being made to feel badly about their choices.  Don't




Thank you Reinbeau


----------



## penelopejane

reinbeau said:


> What bothers me the most about this thread is that those who have used lard and know of the wonderful nature of it in soap are being made to feel badly about their choices.  Don't



That's not how I see it. There are some on this thread who like lard and some who don't. We all have different reasons for our choices but no one is forcing anyone else to change they are just stating what they choose to do.


----------



## Millie

Susie said:


> Can anyone else but me smell when someone takes Tylenol?



Wow!

Who knew we had so many super smellers on the forum? That's a real life super power!

I'm very new to lard so I can't contribute much to the thread theme, but after I got over my fear of smearing animal fat over myself in the shower (yes, I know it's soap now, just had to get over the mental hang up) I tried a couple batches. The first was meant to be unscented. I kept sniffing the oils as they heated in my bain marie, and all was good til the end. The piggy smell was overwhelming and I almost didn't use the batch. Then I sniffed all my oils and realised most of the smell was actually pomace olive oil with just a tiny hint of pig. Just knowing there is lard in the mix makes it smell worse than it is. I added a strong scent to mask it. But oh, the swirling time!! So I did another batch with refined olive oil and just heated the oils til there were a few hard bits left like ice cubes in a punch bowl. Hardly any scent at all, and no worse than vegetable oils. They are still too young to use in the shower so I can't report on any scent returning, or how the lather feels. But I'm hopeful


----------



## earlene

I don't want anyone to feel bad about their choices!  I have absolutely no problem with anyone who chooses to use any animal fat for whatever purpose they choose for their own use.  I would not want someone else to feel guilty for those choices, either.  We each make our own choices for various reasons and should remain free to do so.

*Susie*, I have not noticed a tylenol odor from people.  Now that is an interesting one!  But some medications do certainly alter the body odor or the breath or the urine.  This shouldn't be much of a surprise to folks, of course, since generally a lot of people can smell garlic on the breath and in body odor.  And a lot of people are aware of the changed odor of urine when people eat asparagus.  It's all a chemical reaction; some are more noticeable than others.  (Can anyone identify?  In a public restroom minding my own business and I can tell the person in the next stall ate asparagus recently?)


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Millie said:


> The piggy smell was overwhelming and I almost didn't use the batch. Then I sniffed all my oils and realised most of the smell was actually pomace olive oil with just a tiny hint of pig. Just knowing there is lard in the mix makes it smell worse than it is.


Interesting! But funny too. We're a weird species.


----------



## cherrycoke216

reinbeau said:


> Don't be sad.  You and your friends are smart and right about lard.  I also get my lard from local sources, mainly a friend up in Maine who raises his own.  He takes wonderful care of them, they get to live good piggie lives before they're harvested for food, and the meat from them is delicious, nothing like what comes in those styrofoam packages at the supermarket.  Rendered low and slow that lard never has a piggy smell.  What bothers me the most about this thread is that those who have used lard and know of the wonderful nature of it in soap are being made to feel badly about their choices.  Don't




I thought the smell/ taste of lard and pork is from a boar taint....


----------



## Lee242

I don't have a super smeller but I render my own lard and beef fat and usually end up mixing the two when I run short of one. really like both.
So I ran out and waiting to get some more. I wanted to make some for my kids ( going to Mn. in a short time.) Picked up off the shelf lard at walmart. and it does smell not real good. I hope that goes away, I think I might wait till I get home grown Piggy before I make any more


----------



## Arimara

Lee242 said:


> I don't have a super smeller but I render my own lard and beef fat and usually end up mixing the two when I run short of one. really like both.
> So I ran out and waiting to get some more. I wanted to make some for my kids ( going to Mn. in a short time.) Picked up off the shelf lard at walmart. and it does smell not real good. I hope that goes away, I think I might wait till I get home grown Piggy before I make any more



You probably should not have used that one. You might smell it again well after cure. I have to say that my coffee and lard soap seems to have a lovely thing going on. The piggy smell is much more faint than my other lard soap. Maybe you could consider a lardy coffee soap?


----------



## Lee242

I make a coffee soap for hands but I have not made it with off the shelf lard. I still think I'll wait for fat from the butcher shop.


----------



## soapmaker

Obsidian said:


> For me, nothing compares to lard. It makes a wonderful creamy soap that is nice to the skin.
> 
> I'll always used lard, it's by far my favorite soaping oil.



Do you make a 100% lard soap or what percentage of lard do you use?


----------



## soapmaker

Obsidian said:


> For me, nothing compares to lard. It makes a wonderful creamy soap that is nice to the skin.
> 
> I'll always used lard, it's by far my favorite soaping oil.



Do you make 100% lard soap or what percentage do you use?


----------



## melibee

*Lard*

I made my first two batches of CP soap yesterday, both using lard, and I have to say I smelled nothing porky at all. I melted down my oils over a double boiler. Perhaps that helped?


----------



## Skywise

I always use lard in my unscented goat milk soap and I've never smelled anything remotely "oinky".  I give lots of this soap away and no-one has ever told me that they can smell anything unpleasant, in fact most people have told me they love the fresh smell of it, even though it's completely unscented!

At 39p for 250g lard is certainly much cheaper to use than palm oil and, to my mind, gives a much better lather and "feel" against the skin.  

I love using lard and am currently re-jigging a lot of my recipes to replace palm oil with it.


----------



## Arimara

melibee said:


> I made my first two batches of CP soap yesterday, both using lard, and I have to say I smelled nothing porky at all. I melted down my oils over a double boiler. Perhaps that helped?



It could have helped. But again, some of us do have sensitive sniffers. My lard did not smell piggy when I used it but I am still waiting for those soaps to cure.


----------



## FannieFinch

I am by no means an expert on the topic however from my experience there are several contributing factors to lard having a porkie smell. Regular lard is rendered from the intermuscular (meat) and subcutaneous (skin) fat. Grind or chop the raw fat yourself so you can make absolutely certain that you have trimmed every bit of skin and muscle tissue away. Render over low heat to avoid "frying" the fat. Once the fat has liquefied,  filter it well to remove any trace of cracklin. Then, in a clean kettle bring the filtered fat to 255°F (this is the temperature lethal to salmonella, e-coli, campylobacter, listeria, staphylococcus, clostridium, botulinum, etc.). Let the fat cool and it will be as odor free as possible and ready to use, or store airtight for future use. I hope this is helpful!


----------



## Susie

I use this recipe most often:

Lard 65%
Olive Oil 15%
Coconut Oil 15%
Castor Oil 5%

Superfat 5%


----------



## Lee242

I usually use around 40% lard give or take 10% and I render my own. I'm not sure how possessed store lard is.


----------



## artemis

Lee242 said:


> I usually use around 40% lard give or take 10% and I render my own. I'm not sure how possessed store lard is.


I love autocorrect. I sometimes think we need a whole separate thread just for the "corrections." At least, I assume it was autocorrect: I don't want to encounter any possessed lard in the grocery aisle.


----------



## Millie

Tried the lard soap, it's nice! I was afraid I detected a hint of ham on my skin, but decided ten minutes later it was all in my head. I get phantom smells when watching tv, so I'm pretty suggestible.


----------



## annalee2003

Susie said:


> I use this recipe most often:
> 
> Lard 65%
> Olive Oil 15%
> Coconut Oil 15%
> Castor Oil 5%
> 
> Superfat 5%




This is my go to recipe! I've added 10% Avocado oil to it the last couple of batches though. 
I've never smelled any sort of "pork" smell while using lard. It makes a great hard, creamy bar of soap and I oddly enjoy scooping it out of the container that it comes in (kinda like butter). Love the pure white color it makes as well.


----------



## Arthur Dent

Susie said:


> I use this recipe most often:
> 
> Lard 65%
> Olive Oil 15%
> Coconut Oil 15%
> Castor Oil 5%
> 
> Superfat 5%



I tried subbing half the lard with Walmart GV shortening (with palm and tallow) as Susie suggested in another thread and added 1tbsp sugar ppo, and oh my its good!


----------



## toxikon

Arthur Dent said:


> I tried subbing half the lard with Walmart GV shortening (with palm and tallow) as Susie suggested in another thread and added 1tbsp sugar ppo, and oh my its good!



This is my plan next.

I used to use Palm (when I was just following Brambleberry Beginner recipes) and I loved how hard the bars stayed, even in a wet environment like a shower. 

While I love the creamy feel of my Lard bars, they seem to fall apart and get sloppy quickly in the shower. So I think I may try adding some GV Shortening to my next batch.


----------



## BrewerGeorge

Arthur Dent said:


> I tried subbing half the lard with Walmart GV shortening (with palm and tallow) as Susie suggested in another thread and added 1tbsp sugar ppo, and oh my its good!



Yeah, it's a busy recipe, but I haven't found one I like better than 25% GV shortening, 25% lard, 25% HO-something, 20% CO and 5% castor.

Half GV, half lard (for the hard oils) has never smelled on me, gives a respectable time for swirls, and makes a fantastic bar.  Really, though, I guess it makes sense, since it includes all three of the most common hard oils.


----------



## Susie

toxikon said:


> This is my plan next.
> 
> I used to use Palm (when I was just following Brambleberry Beginner recipes) and I loved how hard the bars stayed, even in a wet environment like a shower.
> 
> While I love the creamy feel of my Lard bars, they seem to fall apart and get sloppy quickly in the shower. So I think I may try adding some GV Shortening to my next batch.



You'll love it.  I keep waffling back and forth on whether I like the all lard or lard/GV best.


----------



## SoapTrey

I rarely use lard in my soaps but when I do, it's can be really nice. For me though, I have an excellent nose and can smell it, so I have to let it cure forever. I usually HP it (no scent, or color) and let the bars cure for at least 6-8 months and much longer... usually.  For instance, I've been using this soap exclusively for about a month and I made 16mths ago. It could just be my imagination, or my wanting it to be that good, but it's the best soap I think I've ever used with absolutely no scent whatsoever.


----------



## Zany_in_CO

I make "old fashioned lye soap" with 100% lard for a geezer pal of ours. He's in his 90's and loves it. It reminds him of when he was a kid, growing up in Texas. I've tried sneaking in a little of this or that and he always catches it! He likes the 100% lard the best. In exchange, I get home grown tomatoes.


----------



## Millie

Dangalang, there is definitely oink coming from that lard bar. DH used it this morning so it was already damp and wafting when I got to it. It's from the batch I probably overheated. I should try a bar from the other batch but I'm not ready to face it yet! I might try just adding 10% to the next batch and slowly going up from there if I like it. I'll try the GV shortening too. This thread has been very helpful, thanks!


----------



## Kittish

artemis said:


> I love autocorrect. I sometimes think we need a whole separate thread just for the "corrections." At least, I assume it was autocorrect: I don't want to encounter any possessed lard in the grocery aisle.



I'm thinking I'd just as soon not encounter any possessed lard anywhere, really.  What would you use to exorcise possessed lard anyhow? Blessed tofu?


----------



## Zany_in_CO

Kittish said:


> I'm thinking I'd just as soon not encounter any possessed lard anywhere, really.  What would you use to exorcise possessed lard anyhow? Blessed tofu?


or Angel Food cake? or Hot Cross buns?


----------



## Arimara

Susie said:


> You'll love it.  I keep waffling back and forth on whether I like the all lard or lard/GV best.



I'll try this around or before my b-day, if I can get some more NaOH.


----------



## soapmaker

What on earth is GV shortening?


----------



## kchaystack

soapmaker said:


> What on earth is GV shortening?



Great Value, it is the in house brand for Wal Mart.


----------



## BrewerGeorge

soapmaker said:


> What on earth is GV shortening?


Specifically, it is the one with a picture of fried chicken on the label.  It's made from beef tallow and palm oil.

Walmart has another Great Value 100% shortening that is made from other stuff, including hydrogenated soy.  ETA:  It has pictures of *Pie (edited to fix)* on the label.


----------



## Arthur Dent

Here they are.  Use the one with the fried chicken on the label.


----------



## toxikon

soapmaker said:


> What on earth is GV shortening?



"Great Value" - Walmart's brand.

[edit] I see the question has already been answered, for some reason the other replies didn't load when I saw the question. :silent:


----------



## soapmaker

Thank you everyone for the detailed explanation. Don't feel bad toxicon, that's the way it goes with all of us. Yes we have walmart and I am familiar with Great Value things but my brain just couldn't come up with it. I will choose the one with the chicken on it!


----------



## earlene

soapmaker said:


> What on earth is GV shortening?



Great Value, a house brand at Walmart.  It has tallow and palm in the mix.  It is listed in SoapCalc and Soapee lye calculators as 'Walmart, GV Shortening.  Some lye calculators do not include any kind of  'Shortening' in their listings, so you'd have to use one that does.

Oops, I don't know how I missed the answers before mine.  Maybe I left the thread open and came back to it.

Incidentally, you will not necessarily find all versions available at all stores.  Not all Walmart stores stock them.


----------



## soapmaker

That's ok, I was just about to ask how you determine sap value. But now another question, I have a friend who is allergic to both coconut and palm oil. Couldn't I just do a 75% lard and 25% olive oil soap?


----------



## NsMar42111

I use lard in my bars unless they are bastile or 100% coconut oils. I fought the piggy smell battle also, but lately I haven't noticed it all. I have noticed the buckets of lard (green and white Armour buckets from Walmart) have been more consistent with their consistency (lol) in the last 6 months. Before , a couple of buckets were grainier and softer than others-I didn't 100% track it but I suspect those buckets were the batches I had piggy smells. 

That said, not a single person I had sniff my soap , even after TELLING them to sniff for pig/bacon/oily smell, could smell the piggy. Mostly the sniffing sessions ended with "I want THAT bar!" LOL. 

I will be playing with a vegan receipe, but my market so far goes for how the soap smells and works. Personally I like the lard bars because they are creamy vs snotty. I have no issues in the shower with them at all and they are on the standard wall soap dish (ceramic built in, does have the ridges).


----------



## Susie

soapmaker said:


> That's ok, I was just about to ask how you determine sap value. But now another question, I have a friend who is allergic to both coconut and palm oil. Couldn't I just do a 75% lard and 25% olive oil soap?



I would use Lard 75%, Olive Oil 20%, Castor Oil 5% for bubbles.


----------



## Obsidian

earlene said:


> Great Value, a house brand at Walmart.  It has tallow and palm in the mix.  It is listed in SoapCalc and Soapee lye calculators as 'Walmart, GV Shortening.  Some lye calculators do not include any kind of  'Shortening' in their listings, so you'd have to use one that does.
> 
> Oops, I don't know how I missed the answers before mine.  Maybe I left the thread open and came back to it.
> 
> Incidentally, you will not necessarily find all versions available at all stores.  Not all Walmart stores stock them.



GV shortening has the same sap as lard, found that out when subbing out lard for GV in a recipe recently, the lye amount didn't change. 

This is really convenient for me, that way I can use either lard/GV or even a mix and I don't have to recalculate my base recipe.


----------



## soapmaker

Susie said:


> I would use Lard 75%, Olive Oil 20%, Castor Oil 5% for bubbles.



Thanks, Susie! That sounds wonderful, I didn't think of castor oil. Sounds like it would be one of my favorite recipes.


----------



## reinbeau

So if you were to make the 25-25-25-20-5 recipe mentioned earlier - you could also just go with 12.5% tallow, 37.5% lard, 25% high oleic sunflower, 20% coconut and 5% castor and get the same result, correct?  Just thinking out loud, in case you can't find the GV Shortening.

ETA interesting how the numbers play out.  The GVS version is a snidge harder and more conditioning.


----------



## psfred

Good to know the GV shortening makes nice soap, I bought some to play with.  Not that I don't have a couple year's worth of soap already curing in the basement.

My lard recipe is 80% lard, 15% CO, and 5% OO or HOSafflower.  Makes lovely soap, but Field lard makes it pink until it's well cured.  Emge (local brand) is snow white.


----------



## Cellador

...just wanted to say that thanks to this thread, I was prompted to make my first soap with lard. I have to admit I was a little skeptical and grossed-out while making it (don't ask me why, I'm not a vegetarian or anything). But, it's an awesome bar of soap- I love it! Thanks to everyone here for their advice!


----------



## ibct1969

Same, Cellador.  I was the same- a bit grossed out too!  I can totally smell it in my 100% lard soap, so I can't use that, but I can't smell it in any other soaps that I have made with a lower percentage.  And, it's much easier to find than palm and definitely less expensive.


----------



## Iluminameluna

I'm new to the forum but I'm also quite the novice to soap making. I've made exactly ONE CP batch of evoo, coconut, sweet almond oil and castor, but I'm now in a place where I can't afford most of those oils. So now I want to make a pure lard soap, with maybe 5% castor oil. Is there a minimum SF% I should be aiming for? I have sensitive skin but no one else. Thanks for all these posts!! VERY enlightening!


----------



## Susie

You can make lard soap with or without castor oil.  I would use the 5% castor oil to help the bubbles then add some sugar to help create bubbles.


----------



## soapmaker

I agree with Susie about the sugar. Sugar goes into all my soaps at 2 teaspoons per pound of oil.


----------



## lsg

I grew up in an era when one used what was readily available.  We butcher our own meat, so lard is available.  I use lard for some soap and palm for others.  I do prefer palm oil, but lard makes creamy lather and is cheap, here.


----------



## cmzaha

45/25/17% tallow, lard, coconut, with some castor and soft oil of choice makes beautiful soap and a batter you can work with if you keep the castor at 3%


----------



## SunRiseArts

cmzaha said:


> 45/25/17% tallow, lard, coconut, with some castor and soft oil of choice makes beautiful soap and a batter you can work with if you keep the castor at 3%


 

I am with cmzaha.  From what I have experience lard soap is ok, but does not lather much ....  I would add at the very least some coconut.  I would prefer adding coconut than castor.


----------



## mortenoen

Rune said:


> Haha, I definately understand your problem extremely well. I'm a Norwegian too, and yes, here is absolutely nothing to be found, apart from very cheap olive oil and rapeseed oil. It is better in Sweden, but not very much. I was looking for swedish coconut oil, thought it maybe would be cheaper than Delfiafett (expensive Norwegian coconut oil), but could not find any hard oils, only butter, like cow's butter, or what it is called. And the liquid oils are way cheaper here than in Sweden. I forgot to check if swedish lye could be cheaper.
> 
> But yes, here is nothing to be found nowhere. Only at online stores abroad. Which is almost impossible to buy from since we can not legally shop for more than eqivalent to $44 (350 NOK) INCLUDED shipping. Otherwise it will be expensive in customs and VAT. And what is $44 dollars when you need like everything? But luckily, some shops do like to cheat and send it in a private name and write "Happy birthday" or something on the parcel, and send the invoice by e-mail.
> 
> I have seen somthing like lard or lard-ish. But I can't find it anymore. It was called Smult. Now they have only Flott Matfett. But if I don't remember wrong, Smult was lard or tallow (I don't know the difference).
> 
> By the way, I think Flott Matfett is quite good. It contains shea fat, coconut fat and rapeseed oil. I think shea fat is the same as or almost the same as shea butter, just in a cheaper and industrial quality, maybe? Not that Flott Matfett is cheap, but anyway, since we have nothing else, and it is cheaper than Delfiafett. I think I will write to them and ask about the percentages of each fat (it's not said on the package), so that lye can be calculated. And I will let you know if I find out.
> 
> I tried to find stearic acid. Of course impossible. So I bought a candle instead  It said 100% stearin on the package. So I just melted it and used it. I had to throw the soap away anyway, it was a disaster like no other! Not the candle, but everything else in the soap.



I'm late to the party here, but I got in touch with Mills, the manufacturerer of "Flott" in Norway, because I could not get my hands on "Smult" (aka Lard/ pigs tallow) or the cheap coconut oil "Delfiafett". These fats and oils are only available around x-mas here. "Flott" on the other hand is always there in my shop. Mills said the composition of the "Flott" is a secret, but it is mostly shea fat, coconut oil and canola oil, with some cured canola oil mixed in. I got some help from my son, who is a chemist, to break this down in order to calulate the proper amount of lye. There are two choises you can make in the calculator to get the saturated/unsaturated ballance right. Say you use 50% "Flott". Then split this ammount into 50% coconut oil, 35%  shea butter and 15% canola oil. You can also enter Saw Palmetto Oil as a stand-in for "Flott", just remember to deduct some points from "clensing", and add some points for "conditioning". That said, next x-mas I'm going to stock up on lard/ pigs tallow. It makes the best soap ever in combo with coconut oil, ghee, almond oil and castor oil.


----------



## Jeboz

penelopejane said:


> Lard is not cheap in Australia.
> I don't like the additives they use to preserve it.
> I have many issues with lard in soap and would not use it.



I have rendered down my own from fat from the butcher - both tallow and lard. At $4 per 250g the lard is definitely expensive at Woolies. Cost me around $24 for 4kg of pork leaf fat so still not super cheap.


----------



## Kafayat Adebowale oyeniyi

Jeboz said:


> I have rendered down my own from fat from the butcher - both tallow and lard. At $4 per 250g the lard is definitely expensive at Woolies. Cost me around $24 for 4kg of pork leaf fat so still not super cheap.


My little butcher around the corner store gives me the beef tallow for free.....Since I buy beef from him....I am soo happy



Susie said:


> I would use Lard 75%, Olive Oil 20%, Castor Oil 5% for bubbles.


Is it ok.if I.just replace lard for tallow...


----------



## lsg

Yes it is OK to replace lard for tallow, just make sure to run the recipe through a lye calculator.


----------



## Nancy Jensen

Does lard go rancid in the soap?


----------



## cmzaha

Nancy Jensen said:


> Does lard go rancid in the soap?


It does for me or it gets an old lard smell when the soap pushes a year. A couple of years ago I did some 100% lard test using different available here, and every one went rancid including fresh rendered lard. Most had antioxidants added to prolong the life of the lard, one of the antioxidants is BHT, do not remember the other, but they still went rancid. Some folks here can attest to it since I sent out the samples. I finally worked out a combination that will go for almost 2 yrs which is a 40/20 (not exact but approx), with additional bht and edta.


----------



## soapmaker

I'm surprised this thread is getting answers, it is over a year old. But since an admin commented I guess I just wanted to say I used the combination Susie recommended. It didn't go rancid but definitely has an old lard smell as it nears 1 year old instead of the refreshing lemongrass and spearmint I used to scent it.


----------



## IrishLass

Nancy Jensen said:


> Does lard go rancid in the soap?



For Carolyn it has ^^^, but for what it's worth, it has never gone rancid in mine. I'm not sure why that is, but my soaps with lard stay good for over 3 years (and counting). I use the Snow Cap-brand lard.


*Edited to add: *I didn't think of this until just now, but I use tetrasodium EDTA in all my batches because of my hard water issues. Tetrasodium EDTA has antioxidant properties as well as chelating properties. Maybe having that extra bit of antioxidant property from the EDTA in my soap helps out.


IrishLass


----------



## Kafayat Adebowale oyeniyi

IrishLass said:


> For Carolyn it has ^^^, but for what it's worth, it has never gone rancid in mine. I'm not sure why that is, but my soaps with lard stay good for over 3 years (and counting). I use the Snow Cap-brand lard.
> 
> 
> *Edited to add: *I didn't think of this until just now, but I use tetrasodium EDTA in all my batches because of my hard water issues. Tetrasodium EDTA has antioxidant properties as well as chelating properties. Maybe having that extra bit of antioxidant property from the EDTA in my soap helps out.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


can you.please recommend where I.buy good tallow


----------



## IrishLass

Kafayat Adebowale oyeniyi said:


> can you.please recommend where I.buy good tallow



I buy mine from Soaper's Choice, a division of Columbus Foods: https://soaperschoice.com/


IrishLass


----------



## Nancy Jensen

soapmaker said:


> I'm surprised this thread is getting answers, it is over a year old. But since an admin commented I guess I just wanted to say I used the combination Susie recommended. It didn't go rancid but definitely has an old lard smell as it nears 1 year old instead of the refreshing lemongrass and spearmint I used to scent it.


What is Susie’s combination? Txs


----------



## cmzaha

IrishLass said:


> For Carolyn it has ^^^, but for what it's worth, it has never gone rancid in mine. I'm not sure why that is, but my soaps with lard stay good for over 3 years (and counting). I use the Snow Cap-brand lard.
> 
> 
> *Edited to add: *I didn't think of this until just now, but I use tetrasodium EDTA in all my batches because of my hard water issues. Tetrasodium EDTA has antioxidant properties as well as chelating properties. Maybe having that extra bit of antioxidant property from the EDTA in my soap helps out.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


I have a bar that was made on  2/17/2014 using Snow Cap Lard, which I can no longer find, that just came down with one spot of dos and the fragrance is still fine. I test with the brands readily available in my area. Snow Cap lard was the very first lard I used when I started making soap. A few years ago when I did still find it had gone up enough in price I did not find it cost worthy since I sell. But if you can fine Snow Cap I agree with IrishLass you should have no problems. This is why I did the testing because I never had a problem with Snow Cap. I apologize I did not explain it better in my last post. Thankyou to IL for pointing it out. I will also mention the spot of dos only appeared when I opened the shrink wrap on one a few month ago, to see what would happen.


----------



## IrishLass

Nancy Jensen said:


> What is Susie’s combination? Txs



Here ya go: *https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/a-little-too-harsh.69060/#post-690902

*
IrishLass


----------



## Nancy Jensen

IrishLass said:


> Here ya go: *https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/a-little-too-harsh.69060/#post-690902
> 
> *
> IrishLass


Thank-you


----------



## Kafayat Adebowale oyeniyi

IrishLass said:


> I buy mine from Soaper's Choice, a division of Columbus Foods: https://soaperschoice.com/
> 
> 
> IrishLass


I buy carrier oils from them let me check it out..thank you


----------



## earlene

cmzaha said:


> I have a bar that was made on  2/17/2014 using Snow Cap Lard, which I can no longer find, that just came down with one spot of dos and the fragrance is still fine. I test with the brands readily available in my area. Snow Cap lard was the very first lard I used when I started making soap. A few years ago when I did still find it had gone up enough in price I did not find it cost worthy since I sell. But if you can fine Snow Cap I agree with IrishLass you should have no problems. This is why I did the testing because I never had a problem with Snow Cap. I apologize I did not explain it better in my last post. Thankyou to IL for pointing it out. I will also mention the spot of dos only appeared when I opened the shrink wrap on one a few month ago, to see what would happen.



Carolyn, maybe you can order it online from WalMart to have them deliver it to your local store and pick it up.  WalMart carries it in some parts of the US, but not all stores stock it.  I don't know why, but they have no uniformity of product in WalMart.  It's just simply hit and miss when it comes to brands in any given store.  However, I think you can order it to be delivered to your local store for you to pick up and you might be able to purchase at a reasonable price.  IF you want to go that route.  I sometimes have to order things in that way because not all things are carried in our local store or the ones nearby.  The only problem is frozen foods.  They won't do that with frozen foods.


----------



## soapmaker

Nancy Jensen said:


> What is Susie’s combination? Txs


 This is what I had in mind. It's in the above post.
Susie said: ↑
I would use Lard 75%, Olive Oil 20%, Castor Oil 5% for bubbles.


----------



## reinbeau

It's 'ok' to use tallow in place of lard (after running through a lye calculator) but the two fats bring very different qualities to a soap.  Pig fat is very close to our own, which is why it's so lovely on the skin.  Tallow is nice also, but it makes for a harder, more cleansing bar than lard does.

ETA I use lard in most of my soaps, I've yet to have one smell 'lardy' and some of the bars I have are five or six years old.  I think it depends on the quality of the lard you use.  I'm just now having to use commercial lard, for years I was able to get leaf lard and render it myself, so I had total control over how it was rendered.  Sadly that source dried up. We'll see what happens going forward.


----------



## Susie

My first batch of soap (now 6.5 years old) still smells like lemongrass with nary a hint of rancidity.  I made it without tetrasodium EDTA (because I had soft water), and now I use tetrasodium EDTA because I have hard water and my batch made July 2017 still has no hint of rancidity.  I use Armour lard, since it is so much cheaper than any other brand.  I don't know why Carolyn is having soaps go rancid, but mine does not.


----------



## MickeyRat

Another thumbs up for lard.  It's readily available here and cheap.  The only time I had trouble with smell was when I messed up and used a catch tray that was propping the over door open a fraction of a inch when I CPOPed the soap.  Then it would smell in the morning when I cut it but, the smell would go away after a couple weeks cure. After I caught my mistake, no smell.  I only started soaping last March and I did use lard.  I still have one bar from my ill-fated first batch.  The soap was good but, the scent was non-existent and it looked really sloppy.  It's coming up on a year and not smelling.

I've started subbing lard whenever I find a recipe with palm oil (recalc the lye) which isn't available or cheap here.  So far, that's going well.  

Thanks for the advice on the GV shortening,  I'll give it a try!


----------



## cmzaha

Susie said:


> My first batch of soap (now 6.5 years old) still smells like lemongrass with nary a hint of rancidity.  I made it without tetrasodium EDTA (because I had soft water), and now I use tetrasodium EDTA because I have hard water and my batch made July 2017 still has no hint of rancidity.  I use Armour lard, since it is so much cheaper than any other brand.  I don't know why Carolyn is having soaps go rancid, but mine does not.


Farmer John Manteca was the worst in my testing with Armour second. To find and purchase the 8 lbs buckets is not cost effective and I do okay with the Smart and Final 50 lb of Lard shortening as long as I add in extra BHT. This is as long as I add in a titch of bht edta and do no go over 25% splitting with tallow. I am beginning to think maybe I need to keep all soaps wrapped after their 2-3 month cure, at least the lard ones. I cut off the end of the 5 yr old soap I have here re-wrapped it and see what it does, since 3/4 of the bar still smell just like the fragrance albeit a little lighter in scent.


----------



## Rune

mortenoen said:


> I'm late to the party here, but I got in touch with Mills, the manufacturerer of "Flott" in Norway, because I could not get my hands on "Smult" (aka Lard/ pigs tallow) or the cheap coconut oil "Delfiafett". These fats and oils are only available around x-mas here. "Flott" on the other hand is always there in my shop. Mills said the composition of the "Flott" is a secret, but it is mostly shea fat, coconut oil and canola oil, with some cured canola oil mixed in. I got some help from my son, who is a chemist, to break this down in order to calulate the proper amount of lye. There are two choises you can make in the calculator to get the saturated/unsaturated ballance right. Say you use 50% "Flott". Then split this ammount into 50% coconut oil, 35%  shea butter and 15% canola oil. You can also enter Saw Palmetto Oil as a stand-in for "Flott", just remember to deduct some points from "clensing", and add some points for "conditioning". That said, next x-mas I'm going to stock up on lard/ pigs tallow. It makes the best soap ever in combo with coconut oil, ghee, almond oil and castor oil.



Hi! I did not see your answer before now. I did mail Mills and got a fatty acid profile for Flott Matfett. After a lot of experimenting in Soapcalc to get it right, I got it almost spot on right, but not 100%, and got a NaoH sap. value of 0,142. Same as palm oil.

I can't remember which combination I used to get it close, but I had to add some pure fatty acids. Because it would not be 100% whatever I did.

Anyway, the ingredients in Flott Matfett can not be 50% coconut, 35% shea and 15% canola, because shea is the first listed, so it has to be more shea than the others. Mills said it was listed in falling order.

Here is the fatty acid profile I got from Mills for Flott Matfett.

Laurin C12          13 %

Myristin C14      5 %

Palmitin C16      8 %

Stearin C18        29 %

Olein C18:1        33 %

Linol C18:2         5 %

Linolen C18:3    0,5 %

I used this plus the ratio of saturated/unsaturated. I came so close that I think it is safe to soap Flott Matfett as palm oil. The numbers for cleansing, hardness, longevity etc will of course not be correct by choosing palm oil in Soapcalc (which I don't use anymore). I use Seifenrechner from Handmade by Katrin, where I can calculate with dual lye and add acids:
http://www.handmade-by-kathrin.de/soap/calc/

If you haven't tried dual lye, you should. It really boosts bubbles! It has been ages since I made soap last, but for my two most recent, I used dual lye. And I will never go back to only Naoh, ever! It works that well, I promise. Around 5% KoH and 95% NaoH, that is enough. You can't just replace 5% with KoH, but have to do some maths, or use a lye calculator that does the maths for you. 

Dual lye must be perfect for those who try to reduce the amount of coconut oil in a recipe, but still wants enough bubbles.


----------



## MickeyRat

Rune said:


> If you haven't tried dual lye, you should. It really boosts bubbles! It has been ages since I made soap last, but for my two most recent, I used dual lye. And I will never go back to only Naoh, ever! It works that well, I promise. Around 5% KoH and 95% NaoH, that is enough. You can't just replace 5% with KoH, but have to do some maths, or use a lye calculator that does the maths for you.
> 
> Dual lye must be perfect for those who try to reduce the amount of coconut oil in a recipe, but still wants enough bubbles.



This is veering off topic but,. very interesting.  Soapee http://soapee.com/calculator can do dual lye.  The only thing I've used it for is shaving soap but. I will give this a try.


----------



## SaltedFig

Soapmaking Friend (the online calculator developed by the SMF owners and community) also handles dual lye 
(it also has the ability to handle masterbatched dual lye, which is a feature I think is unique to the SMF calculator)

Soapmaking Friend URL: https://www.soapmakingfriend.com/


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## Rune

I tested Soapmaking Friend just now. I really like it! I especially like that you can add both citric acid and vinegar. I like the expand feature under the oils.

What I don't like is that you have to choose 5% vinegar. I use 35% vinegar essence (use or use, well I tried using vinegar first today). I have used a German calculator lately, and it is the opposite there, you have to choose pure acetic acid. 25 grams vinegar essence is close to 9 grams acetic acid. It is quite easy to calculate pure acetic acid from a vinegar, regardless of strength. 35% vinegar is nice, because the amount needed is so small that I don't have to discount the water or anything. When I have to choose 5% vinegar, I have to do some maths to calculate 35% over to 5%. I'm sure it's not difficult or anything. Or buy a 5% vinegar, which is pointless since I have access to stronger. I can of course dillute mine, but.

In Sweden, they have 12% as standard. They must also do their maths. I'm sure they have all sorts of standard strength on vinegar around the world. Ideally, it should be a system where the strengh and the amount of your vinegar can be put in, for computers to do the maths. They are good at it, better than people. Less mistakes can happen in soaping kitchens around the world.

Soapmaking Friend seems really, really good! It clearly shows that it is made by soapmakers. So much to like about it. Thumbs up!


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## SaltedFig

I agree with you on the vinegar - here we have a standard (off the shelf vinegars) at 4% and 6% - I haven't found a 5% one yet (mind you, I haven't looked that hard ).

Your post would be excellent feedback in the Soapmaking Friend forum (where it has a chance to be included in a program update) 
https://www.soapmakingforum.com/forums/soapmakingfriend-com-support-forum.50/


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## Atihcnoc

Nancy Jensen said:


> Does lard go rancid in the soap?



I still have the first soaps that I made with lard in 2010, at that moment I did not use any additives as I have not idea about "chelating agents" for hard water, my poor husband always complained that with my soaps, the shower was always left with a mark.
The SF for those soaps was 8% and 10% and *they are in perfect condition*, they *don't have the smell of pork*, they *don't have DOS* and *they are not rancid*.
I realized that not only the soaps that I made with lard are in perfect condition, but also all the soaps that I kept as a reminder that they were the first soaps with which I ventured to use different oils and fats coming out of my comfort zone, the soaps do not have any type of antioxidants and they are still in perfect condition.


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## Trinbago27

I know i am late to the party, but I tried soaping with lard yesterday and I was amazed at the slow trace and the creaminess!  Obviously I have not tried the soap yet, but I was so impressed already, that I just know the soap will be great.  I did not have any odor with my Armour lard...I melted it with lye water and it worked great.  Thanks to everyone that suggested it in this forum!


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