# How long do you cure your CPOP soaps?  HP?



## Guest

How long do you cure your cold process/oven process soaps? I've tried some of mine right away- just the trimmings....nothing zaps....and it works well- soft and mild with lovely lather. The actual bars are still drying and getting harder. 
When do you feel yours are ready to share? 

What about HP? I'm using my HP soaps already and they are great. I haven't shared many yet though.


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## Guest

I cure any CP at least 6 weeks , some say 4 weeks but I find a definite difference for the better  in the 2 extra weeks . HP at  least 2 weeks some say 1 week . Soap only gets better as it ages like fine wine or cheese . If you like it new it will be that much better aged . 

Kitn


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## krissy

juicy, you may also find that a recipe you love at one point in the cure you love even more after it has cured a bit, HP included. or the opposite might be true. i have a recipe that i loved from the get go but after the cure, i don't like it as much. you have to take the time to get to know your soaps personalities and flaws that can only become known through time. you have to wait things out and just see what happens. i was as gung-ho as you when i first started soaping and now i KNOW that my first batches should have been kept and watched because they are not the best and one even went DOS on me. :shock: 
cure is very important and i do 4-6 weeks for CP and at least 2 but usually 4 on HP.


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## TheSoapyEwe

I make only HP and I agree with the at least 2 week wait, especially before sharing with others and to get more accurate feedback on your soaps.


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## Guest

Great- this is just the info I wanted. You guys are really helpful. Thanks so much!

So...do you consider soap as CP that has been oven processed at heat (170 F for at least an hour, then cooled in shut-off oven overnight) ....thus it needs a 6 week cure? Or would you consider it HP with a 2 week cure or something in between?


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## Gramma Judy

Are you doing OHP?  Oven hot process - like CPHP only in the oven or do you mean soap is in the mold and put in oven to force gel?  If it is to merely to force gel, then yes it needs to cure for 4-6 weeks.  If it is the OHP, which by the way there is a great tute on Craft Server, if I am allowed to say this, it is HP and 2 week cure.  HTH
BTW, you are making some great looking soaps.


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## Guest

Thank you Judy. You are very kind. Thanks for the info too. I've been doing mostly CP and then into the oven in the mold for an hour at 170F, then shut the oven off and let it sit there overnight. I thought it was similiar to HP for the curing time because of what I've read online, but it will be interesting to watch them cure and see what happens beside my crock pot HP and straight CP soaps. 

It's so much fun learning!


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## JenniferSews

I use my CPOP right away.  I know it will be nicer later, but I do CPOP because I just can't wait (well that and I'm super lazy.)    I always check for zap first and haven't had anything come out zappy in the am yet.  My skin is super sensitive too.


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## Saltysteele

my rosemary mint soap, the first i've made, is 4-5 weeks old now?  i don't know for sure.

anyway, every week i take a different bar, and trim off the ends (made in bread loaf pan, so bars are very large and angled).  it is to the point now, where there is just a few millimeters left that hasn't fully darkened.  i've watched this, and it has been very cool to see the soap curing and to have a visual indicator how it is coming along in the drying process

so, long story, short, i agree with the experts (like they need my approval  ) with 6 weeks or more.

that having been said, a thinner bar is going to dry quicker, although i'm not sure if curing and drying correlate in anyway, or not.

i have been using the end pieces as they dry, and they've worked great, with no noticeable change after they're visually dried.


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## cdc

So,  My question is.....why?

I know everyone is quoting the common numbers...4-6 weeks....but, why?  Where is the science to back this up?

I mean, some soap may need 3 weeks, or 10 weeks to harden or cure or mature to perfection....but that is going to depend alot on the recipe, conditions, etc, surely.

If we do HP soap, the soap is basically ready right away, so the heat is speeding up the process that uses up the lye, making the soap "safe" to use.

In CP soaping, the temp is lower, so it takes longer....but if the oven is used, the temps should be alot more like a HP soap, and so it make sense that the soap would be ready in HP times not CP times.

But, even in CP, whether you gel, insulate, etc.....there is so much variation in temperatures....the amount of time that it takes a bar to be "ready" really must be variable.  Right?

I searched and searched and searched the internet for good scientific info to back up the commonly accepted claims behind the recipes, and did not find them.  Makes sense though.  It is all math and chemistry, and if you are messing with your variables.....your results will be different.


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## bala

CDC, I agree with you.
I have one question, how do you use oven?
What kind temperature and moisture in oven?
How do you make sure that nothing change inside of soap?

I have rainning season problem.


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## soapqueen

*How long to cure soap*

I asked a scientist who also makes soap this question, and he said that even with basic cold process soap (no oven involved), within 48 hours the lye reaction has exhausted itself. So there should be no danger in using it.
Other than that is the question of drying the bar to increase hardness. I presume that will depend to some extent on ambient temperatures and humidity, and even more so on whether the water was discounted in the first place.
I have always used my CP soaps myself within a few days, and have never had a problem. But I wait for 4 weeks before selling, mainly because I have read in so many places that this is necessary. But, I'm not actually convinced that it is from a safety point of view.
I do realise that some may see this as heresy, and am happy to be corrected.


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## CiCi

I start using my soaps a couple days after I make them. Once the soap has saponified, there is no lye left. The reason for the 4-6 week cure is basically so that the bar can harden and mellow out to a lovely lather. Even though it may lather well when you unmold it, the longer the cure, the better the lather. Months down the line, the lather will be insane. Old soaps are some of my best soaps.

Edited to add...I just saw the post above mine. It is almost saying the same thing.


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## colleenestelle

I really think the recommended curing time is for hardness, and not so much safety.


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## Bigmoose

I try to give my CP soaps 4+ weeks.  The biggest reason is as they dry out they shrink and the labels become loose then.  I try to let my HP soaps set at least 3 weeks.

Bruce


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## lsg

I cure my cp soaps for at least 4 weeks and my hp soaps for about 2 weeks.


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## new12soap

I am the oddball. I cure my CP minimum 6 weeks, and my HP minimum of 4 weeks... BUT! I really prefer to wait for 8 weeks, even with my HP I find a tremendous difference between 4 and 8 weeks in the mildness, lather, and overall quality of the soap. I have absolutely no science to back it up, but that is what happens IME


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## max_ime

I made soap for the 2nd time this week, I did HP (cooked it until gel and then added 12% super fat and stirred and poured)  I used 45% coconut.  I did not zap upon tongue testing so I thought it was safe to use but it's actually drying to skin, especially to face, it left my face dry and hot especially on the nose and forehead, this sensation persist after using the soap only once on my face 2 days ago.  I wonder how that's possible?  I licked the bars may times, different spots no zap at all.  Yes coconut is a cleanser but I have 45% only + 12% super fat from hemp and jojoba.  + I used dr Bronner for years and it's mostly coconut too and it's wonderful.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

Even with HP, I wait 2 weeks to test and then another 2 weeks before anyone else gets to use them.  I'd start another thread in the recipe feedback section or the CP section, with your full recipe, so people can give feedback on it.


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## pamielynn

I think all soaps should be cured out at LEAST 4 weeks, too. Especially HP - since usually you use more liquid in its production. I find it interesting that everyone wants to skip cure; I don't understand why. Properly made CP should be safe to use right away, just like HP; and sticking CP in the oven only forces gel - doesn't lessen the need for curing. 

Let 'em cure, people! You will love your soapies even more than you do now


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## shunt2011

Max your problem may be the amount of coconut you used even with the higher superfat.  It would dry my skin out. I would probably superfat that recipe at 15% or a bit more even.  However, I did make a 100% CO but i also superfat that at 20-25% and it works well without drying. I cure all my soaps 4-6 weeks at least.  I too have found that it becomes a much better bar after a good cure.  More lather, bubbles and is harder and milder.


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## max_ime

pamielynn said:


> Properly made CP should be safe to use right away, just like HP; and sticking CP in the oven only forces gel - doesn't lessen the need for curing.




Did you mean should NOT be safe to use right away? cause it kind of contradicts what you just said. safe means it won't dry the skin.

I'm confused some say that once it goes through HP soap is ready for use if it doesn't zap.  For CP I red after 48hr saponification is complete and therefore it can be used to.


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## seven

max_ime said:


> Did you mean should NOT be safe to use right away? cause it kind of contradicts what you just said. *safe means it won't dry the skin*.
> 
> I'm confused some say that once it goes through HP soap is ready for use if it doesn't zap.  For CP I red after 48hr saponification is complete and therefore it can be used to.



your skin might be a bit sensitive to co, a 12% SF might not be enough for a recipe with 45% co. that is why it felt drying. to some ppl, this amount of SF might be enough, but to others might not.

my basic understanding of safe soap is that it has finished saponification process, therefore no active lye is present in the soap. 
essentially, your soap is safe to use since it was done HP, but how your skin reacts to that particular recipe is another story. have you made soap with high co before?

i totally agree with pamielynn.. my hp soaps ended up cured even longer than my cp, coz i used more liquid. you could try giving the soap a bit more time to cure (2-3 weeks minimum) and try it again on your skin. i have a feeling you might be a bit sensitive to the high co amount.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

max_ime said:


> Did you mean should NOT be safe to use right away? cause it kind of contradicts what you just said. safe means it won't dry the skin.
> 
> I'm confused some say that once it goes through HP soap is ready for use if it doesn't zap.  For CP I red after 48hr saponification is complete and therefore it can be used to.



Saponification in CP can take longer than 48 hours.  It depends on the recipe and how you made it (prevent gel, force gel and so on).  When it stops zapping, it is safe.

With HP, you cook the soap and saponification is completed before you even mould it up, so it is safe.

Safe does not mean that it won't dry the skin - a badly made, but non-lye heavy soap can still be drying.  A well made soap can still dry some people, too.

Note, I am excluding silly recipes and things like too much EO and so on when I say "safe".  I am assuming a good recipe.


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## AnnaO

^^^^^
What seven and Gent. say 

In my understanding a 'safe' soap is a soap which will not burn the skin through being lye-heavy. A properly made, appropriately cured soap will not be lye heavy.

Drying the skin IMO is a different issue. High cleansing soaps, such as those with a high % of coconut oil, may cause skin dryness in susceptible people.

Eg my OH cannot use soaps with higher than 20% coconut oil on his face, as they dry out his skin to such an extent that his face erupts in large bright red patches which feel tender and sore, crack and flake, and take time to heal. 
Just his face is affected though, the rest of him is fine.
Also with other soaps I make he's fine. 
But he's not sensitive to coconut oil itself though, and uses it as a moisturiser.

Edit: I haven't to date used EOs or FOs in my soaps, so his face is affected by the high cleansing alone.


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## max_ime

seven said:


> my basic understanding of safe soap is that it has finished saponification process, therefore no active lye is present in the soap.
> essentially, your soap is safe to use since it was done HP, but how your skin reacts to that particular recipe is another story. have you made soap with high co before?
> 
> i totally agree with pamielynn.. my hp soaps ended up cured even longer than my cp, coz i used more liquid. you could try giving the soap a bit more time to cure (2-3 weeks minimum) and try it again on your skin. i have a feeling you might be a bit sensitive to the high co amount.



I have been using dr Bronner for years and it is mostly coconut, but I don't know their SF%.  It is not drying at all on my skin and the liquid version is good for my skin too.  It's around 80% coconut because KOH is the 2nd ingredient, + it is not SF more than 3-4%, otherwise I red it would go cloudy.



AnnaO said:


> ^^^^^
> What seven and Gent. say
> 
> Eg my OH cannot use soaps with higher than 20% coconut oil on his face, as they dry out his skin to such an extent that his face erupts in large bright red patches which feel tender and sore, crack and flake, and take time to heal.
> Just his face is affected though, the rest of him is fine.
> Also with other soaps I make he's fine.
> But he's not sensitive to coconut oil itself though, and uses it as a moisturiser.



What is you SF% in CO soaps? perhaps a 25% or higher Sf would fix the issue for him?


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## seven

max_ime said:


> I have been using dr Bronner for years and it is mostly coconut, but I don't know their SF%.  It is not drying at all on my skin and the liquid version is good for my skin too.  It's around 80% coconut because KOH is the 2nd ingredient, + it is not SF more than 3-4%, otherwise I red it would go cloudy.



i was gonna say that bronner's liquid soaps have lower ph (i noticed citric acid in the ingredients list) than cp soap (which is more alkaline), but i ain't too sure myself. someone who is more chem savvy should answer your question 

btw, where did you get the number 80%? is it possible that the percentages of co, koh, and olive are not much of a difference from each other? a similar topic is being discussed in 
.


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## AnnaO

max_ime said:


> What is you SF% in CO soaps? perhaps a 25% or higher Sf would fix the issue for him?



Some people just have skin that cannot take high cleansing, irrespective of SF, and my OH is one of them. 
So because my OH's face is so delicate, I make him low cleansing facial bars, which he loves. So it's not really an issue, it's just the type of skin he has 
(Re your suggestion... 100% CO 20% SF had the same ultra drying effect on his face).


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## DeeAnna

"...lower ph (i noticed citric acid in the ingredients list)..."

Ahem.  Citric acid in the ingredients list for a soap means there is sodium citrate (or potassium citrate) in the soap and there might be a higher % of free fatty acid or free fat in the soap. It would be incorrect to assume the pH is necessarily lower.


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## max_ime

seven said:


> btw, where did you get the number 80%? is it possible that the percentages of co, koh, and olive are not much of a difference from each other? a similar topic is being discussed in
> .




Well just because ingredients are listed like this : Coconut, KOH, Olive, hemp, jojoba   Because Koh has to be around 15% (or else there would be way to much alkali for it to make a good soap)  therefore olive has to be only around 10% making obvious that the coconut is around 70-80%


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## AnnaO

max_ime said:


> Well just because ingredients are listed like this : Coconut, KOH, Olive, hemp, jojoba   Because Koh has to be around 15% (or else there would be way to much alkali for it to make a good soap)  therefore olive has to be only around 10% making obvious that the coconut is around 70-80%



If you take the % of water contained in the liquid soap into consideration, then it follows that the coconut oil percentage is a lot less than 70 - 80%.

(Edit: yes this is a daft comment. My brain is tired. Sorry all.)


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## max_ime

AnnaO said:


> If you take the % of water contained in the liquid soap into consideration, then it follows that the coconut oil percentage is a lot less than 70 - 80%.



I think it's 70-80% of the oils in the recipe, dr Bronner bar soap is 5% water, liquid is 61% water (it's written on their website in the difference between bar and liquid)


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## AnnaO

I thought you meant the liquid stuff 
Mind you the olive, hemp and jojoba could all be 15% each... which would mean the coconut would then be less than 40%... but anyway I'm signing off now, and turning in, as it's nighttime here in Blighty :yawn:


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## pamielynn

max_ime said:


> Did you mean should NOT be safe to use right away? cause it kind of contradicts what you just said. safe means it won't dry the skin.
> 
> I'm confused some say that once it goes through HP soap is ready for use if it doesn't zap.  For CP I red after 48hr saponification is complete and therefore it can be used to.



No. There is a difference between "safe" and "drying". I read lots of posts where newbies claim that they make HP or CPOP because "it is safe to use right away".  This makes no sense to me. You can safely use fresh CP soap, too. Or should be able to, if it's made correctly.

Your soap should never be lye-heavy, because it will always be lye-heavy no matter how long you cure it. Cure will not fix this problem.


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## max_ime

AnnaO said:


> I thought you meant the liquid stuff
> Mind you the olive, hemp and jojoba could all be 15% each... which would mean the coconut would then be less than 40%... but anyway I'm signing off now, and turning in, as it's nighttime here in Blighty :yawn:



Well I did mean the liquid stuff when saying around 80% coconut, but when breaking it down again taking into account the 61% water/39%soap I realized coconut must be around at least 57% of the oils to around 84% to the most and from what I red liquid soap cannot be clear if there is more than 2% jojoba in it, and Bronner doesn't smell like hemp oil so the hemp percentage has to be around 2% (I made bars with 6% and they really smell like hemp)  unless they use refined hemp oil, but again I never smelled refined hemp oil.  or maybe the smell fades away after a month, can anyone experienced tell?   (% are % of the oils)

I will break down :

Dr Bronner unscented :
THE % ARE OF THE WHOLE CONTENT OF THE LIQUID SOAP

water 61% source : http://lisa.drbronner.com/?p=675

coconut 18% - 26.4% = (57% - 84% of the oils in recipe)

because:

KOH 7.8% (has to be around 13% of the paste recipe's including the water to make KOH solution using a 26% solution (with 90% pure KOH) see below my first attempt's proportions

olive to the most about 3-7%  = (9 % - 22% of the oils)

hemp to the most around 7% but probably more like 1% or less because of the absence of hemp smell and colour unless they use refined which I am not familiar with I guess they do use refined, I will try it.

jojoba 0,5% (I red it has to be less than 2% of the oils for it to be a clear LS)
citric acid (no time to break it down now)
vitamin e (same for now)
(not written on label but I think there's 0.005% rosemary EO from what I red and comparing the smell with the result of my first attempt, it makes sense)

Here's my 1st attempt at making a liquid soap like dr Bronner, I did use cheap store bought sunflower oil this time because I had no vitamin e but I will try the next batch without it, I don't think it's helping much.  + I replaced olive by avocado, don't know if this is a good thing yet, will try with olive too. avocado are the olives of the new world? kind of... avocado oil has no smell almost compared to olive, I am going for an unscented soap right now.

total fat 650g
CO 78.69% of fats = 511.48g   // 90% KOH needed is 142.64g
avocado  7% of fats = 45.5g    //                                   9.41g
sunflower 6.5% = 42.25g        //                                    8.87g
hemp 6.2% = 40.3g                //                                    8.55g
jojoba clear 1.61% = 10.47g    //                                    1.12g
                                              //      total 90% KOH=  170.59g
                                              //                -3.33% discount -(5.69g)
                                              //                              =164.70g
takes 469.33g of water to make a 26% KOH solution
I cooked for about 6.5 hr then turned it off and let it overnight in the crock,  it's clear but has a very very slight haze, more obvious under light, it's a tiny bit less clear than Bronner's, Bronner's is not totally clear either compared to a clear beer.  I cannot tell you how good or bad the soap is yet, I did not add the citric acid yet, and I think it needs to cure to get good, maybe in a month? I don't know.  I cannot really tell if it is drying right now, I already dried my skin with my attempts at bar soap, so I will only try my Liquid soap when my skin is back to normal, just being easy on myself.

So I will try to break it down further by breaking down the bar soap soon, probably this will get clearer, I'm sure an experienced soap maker out there can tell the % of Bronner's recipe just by experience and knowledge of oils.
In bar soap I notice that there must be less than 1gr of salt per bar because it doesn't taste salty.  I made some with 1 gram per bar and it was noticeable to taste. so that gives a hint of the amount of citric acid.  Lye must be around 12% unless there's a huge lye discount to make a 15-25% SF.  Experienced soaper out there probably can tell what's the SF of Bronner bars just by using them, feeling them.  I think Bronner soap is milled with machines, might be wrong about that... Coconut and Palm probably represent at least 62%, lye around 12%, water 5 % (so the following oils should all be below 5 or equal, unless they can label it that way because they use more than 5% but the resulting product has 5% in it?) olive 11% or less, hemp 10 or less, jojoba probably 5 or less.


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## max_ime

pamielynn said:


> No. There is a difference between "safe" and "drying". I read lots of posts where newbies claim that they make HP or CPOP because "it is safe to use right away".  This makes no sense to me. You can safely use fresh CP soap, too. Or should be able to, if it's made correctly.



If it makes no sense to you, are you saying that you can safely used CP  or HP right away if it is properly made but while being safe, it will dry your skin, maybe severely because it has not cured for weeks yet?  Or, that a higher SF would ensure that the soap won't be drying even if used right away, assuming that you aren't abnormally sensitive to the oils involved.  Someone here told that you need to wait 3-4 weeks because of some crystal realignment or something of the sort still going on, after this wait, then it's not drying anymore.


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## The Efficacious Gentleman

A soap can still be drying, after a cure.  They become milder with time, of course, but a 100% CO soap at 1% SF would still be drying when Charlton Heston is weeping and screaming in front of the destroyed statue of liberty!

There is a difference between safe, drying and "ready"

Safe means that saponification is finished and no lye is present (and no other dangerous ingredient amounts, eg too much EO)

Drying means that someone's skin reacts to the soap in a certain way.  New soaps can be more drying than when they are older, some recipes work with some people and not others

"ready" is a less tangible value - to some (including me) it is 4 weeks for most soaps, maybe 8 weeks for a salt bar and at least 6 months for a Castile.  For others, "ready" for a Castile is 12 months!  For yet more people, "ready" for all bars is 2 weeks.


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## seven

DeeAnna said:


> "...lower ph (i noticed citric acid in the ingredients list)..."
> 
> Ahem.  Citric acid in the ingredients list for a soap means there is sodium citrate (or potassium citrate) in the soap and there might be a higher % of free fatty acid or free fat in the soap. It would be incorrect to assume the pH is necessarily lower.



 i have a feeling it was a bad guess, lol

thanks for the clarification DeeAnna


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## max_ime

check this out  

====
( source for a lil more details: http://forum.thesage.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=99)

2) You can lower your soap's pH by adding Citric Acid but then you must also up your lye to compensate for the CA or your soap will separate. Tricky, but it can be done. Here's a formula from my files:

Add 0.571 oz. of NaOH for every oz. of CA. 

Example: If you use 0.25 oz. of CA ppo (Per Pound Oil) for 32 oz. oils:

2 (lbs) x 0.25 = 0.5 oz. CA

0.5 x 0.571 = 0.2885 oz. extra lye (0.29 oz. rounded off)

3) Citric Acid can be used to reduce soap scum, especially useful if you have hard water. It reacts with the lye to form sodium citrate.

Use rate is 0.1% to 0.5%. Up to 1 tsp. (1-5 grams) ppo

SAP value is 0.571 for monohydrate citric acid. 
SAP value is 0.625 for anhydrous citric acid. 

Add citric acid to oils before adding lye water. If you add it to your water, add the lye slowly and carefully. The citric acid will cause some excess bubbling and splashing. 
====

I used this info in my attempt to perfect my bar soap.  Unfortunately, I couldn't find more info on how to use citric acid.  For me, it seems it is defintely not working to stir in a solution of citric acid and dead sea salt mixed together after HP at the moment of SF just before pour.  The problem is that the soap won't be smooth and well mixed(or maybe it will if I used a 2nd stick blender) .  So I tried to put my solution in the dissolved lye solution and it did something like a kind of separation when I put about 1/4 tsp in it (probably due to dead sea salt only), so I went on and put my dead sea salt + citric acid in the already melted oils before adding the lye solution so that as I expected once stick blended, it came out great, nice smooth texture, but lots of air bubbles, ( I cooked the soap, it was around 150-170F which was to much I think, causing air bubbles) BTW I used about 1.37g per bar  in the first attempt, 1.61g in the 2nd(smooth one).


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## FlybyStardancer

Dead Sea Salt isn't really good to use in soap. It's got too many minerals that react with the lye in the soap.

I use citric acid in nearly all of my soaps. I dissolve it in my water before I add the lye, and I use the much easier conversion of 6g lye for every 10g citric acid. I use 5g citric acid for every 500g oils.


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## DeeAnna

From the post at the MMS forum: "...You can lower your soap's pH by adding Citric Acid but then you must also up your lye to compensate for the CA or your soap will separate...."

I've read this post before and this particular statement is still bad chemistry. Citric acid reacts instantly with lye to form sodium citrate and water. 

Done in the absence of saponifying soap, adding citric acid to a lye solution would lower the pH of the lye solution ONLY IF there is enough citric acid added to exactly equal or exceed the amount of acid required to neutralize the sodium hydroxide. But adding citric acid in conjunction with making soap, the chemistry just doesn't work that way. The soap has its own contribution to the party. The net effect is citric acid does not lower the soap's pH if added to a soap batter.

"...[citric acid] reacts with the lye to form sodium citrate...."

The MMS poster is correct here. Approximately 0.6 g of NaOH neutralizes 1 gram of citric acid. 

If you add citric acid to a soap batter but do NOT add sufficient lye to compensate for this neutralization reaction, the citric acid will consume some of the lye needed for saponification. You are in effect increasing your superfat -- not lowering the pH. 

Citric acid is not soluble in fat. It would work better to dissolve the citric acid in the water phase. I can't speak about the advisability of adding dead-sea salt to saponifying batter.

Here is yet another correction to the MMS post: "...At a pH level of "7" Dove is a true neutral pH *soap*...." 

Nope, wrong again. Dove is a *syndet *(synthetic detergent) bar, NOT a soap. It can legitimately have a pH of 7 or thereabouts because it is NOT a true lye soap.

More info: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showpost.php?p=414542&postcount=22


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## max_ime

FlybyStardancer said:


> Dead Sea Salt isn't really good to use in soap. It's got too many minerals that react with the lye in the soap.
> 
> I use citric acid in nearly all of my soaps. I dissolve it in my water before I add the lye, and I use the much easier conversion of 6g lye for every 10g citric acid. I use 5g citric acid for every 500g oils.



well so far dead sea salt seems to work well in the amounts I use it.  about 1.6g per bar of 100-140g

Does the lye solution bubbles more or steam more, any risks of splashes by dissolving the Citric acid before the lye?



DeeAnna said:


> If you add citric acid to a soap batter but do NOT add sufficient lye to compensate for this neutralization reaction, the citric acid will consume some of the lye needed for saponification. You are in effect increasing your superfat -- not lowering the pH.
> 
> Citric acid is not soluble in fat. It would work better to dissolve the citric acid in the water phase. I can't speak about the advisability of adding dead-sea salt to saponifying batter.



If it is so, if it's just playing with the SF, then what is the point of using Citric acid?  I have the feeling there is more to it,  like it probably does help the ph to remain lower or/and the soap to be less cleansing, good if using lots of coconut I guess.

adding a citric acid solution to the oils before adding the lye solution must be pretty much the same in the end as adding the CA to the water before adding lye.  Once you put the stick blender in the batter it all comes together


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## FlybyStardancer

Sodium citrate (what forms when lye reacts with citric acid) is a chelator. It helps bind up the minerals in hard water, which in turn allows the soap to lather more freely and for less soap scum to form. Adding the citric acid to the water allows it to dissolve more readily, and also gives it a chance to react with the lye before it gets added to the oils, allowing the whole process to run smoother. I haven't had any issues with having it dissolved in the water when I add lye. It might produce a smidge more heat than water without the citric acid, but it's really a non-event.

It does not make soaps with too high a CO level milder, nor does it truly lower the pH of the soap.


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## DeeAnna

Exactly what FlyBy said. Couldn't have explained it any better.


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## CaraBou

FlyBy, how long do you let your water/citric acid/lye solution sit before you add it to your oils to ensure maximum conversion to sodium citrate?  Would a 2:1 water to "original" lye ratio still work okay, or do you need to add some extra?  And finally, do you experience any fizzing or other behavior changes that I should know about before trying it? 

My DH keeps citric acid for his home brewing, and I have been wanting to try it in soap. Thanks for all the great info, especially on the application rates of the citric acid and extra lye.


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## FlybyStardancer

I let it sit as long as I can stand, since I try to soap cooler anyways.  I don't add any extra water. I've even done it with a 50/50 mixture, when I was adding the rest of the water balance as a different liquid. I just make sure the citric acid is dissolved before adding the lye, and there's no odd behavior.

I've certainly noticed a difference in my soaps.


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## seven

FlybyStardancer said:


> I use the much easier conversion of 6g lye for every 10g citric acid. I use 5g citric acid for every 500g oils.



Fly, can you please help me understand this better. so far, i understand that you have to adjust the amount of lye (read: add more) if you are using citric. so, lets say my recipe of 500 gr of oils calls for 50 gr lye, with a 5% SF. i want to use 5 gr of citric like you, so i need to add 3 gr more of lye to keep the SF level at 5% (so total lye will be 53 gr). am i right?

i suck at math, chem, the whole science thing


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## FlybyStardancer

Yup, that's exactly it!


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## max_ime

FlybyStardancer said:


> Dead Sea Salt isn't really good to use in soap. It's got too many minerals that react with the lye in the soap.
> 
> I use citric acid in nearly all of my soaps. I dissolve it in my water before I add the lye, and I use the much easier conversion of 6g lye for every 10g citric acid. I use 5g citric acid for every 500g oils.



with such an amount do you do CP ?

I used the same amount with HP and I have tiny air bubbles all through my soap, it seems like they form during the cooking phase.  I thought it was the dead sea salt but when I tried with normal sea salt, same thing happens.  Thank you!


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