# Formulating Liquid Soap



## Soapprentice

So, all the liquid soap experts, I have a question, well not ‘a’ but here they go.. can we use the same formula we have for solid soap for a liquid soap? does too much coconut oil result in drying an issue? As glycerine is added too... we look at hardness, drying and lasting in solid soap, what do we check for in LS?


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## DeeAnna

"The numbers" don't relate as well to the properties of liquid soap as they do to bar soap. The cleansing number (% of lauric and myristic acids) is the only one that I think relates to LS. When I want to look in more detail at the properties of a LS recipe, I usually check the fatty acids.

Yes, too much coconut (the % of lauric and myristic acids, to be more correct) can be drying. LS recipes for bathing and hand washing often have a little higher % of coconut than bar soap to get the lather going, but that's not a universal thing, just a tendency. Some people make a 100% coconut liquid soap for laundry or household cleaning -- I think Susie does -- but folks say their hands get pretty dry without gloves.

Another issue with LS is that one squirt contains quite a bit of soap -- much more than you'd get from rubbing a bar of soap. More soap, however mild it may be, means more cleaning power and that can mean dry skin too. And it also means more soap down the drain. One way to control over cleaning and waste is to dilute the soap enough to use it in foamer bottles.

Yes, you can theoretically use any bar soap recipe to make a liquid soap, just recalculate it for KOH. There are reasons why you might not want to, however.

If clarity of the LS is important to you, you need to reduce the % of palmitic and stearic acids in the recipe (lard, tallow, palm, butters) as low as is reasonable. Also avoid fats that have a high % of unsaponifiables -- avocado, jojoba, etc. If clarity isn't a goal, then ignore what I just said. 

Castor is often used in a higher % for added clarity. The Irish Lass - Carrie recipe that is pretty popular calls for 10% castor.

Keep the oleic acid around 50% give or take if you want to have a honey thick soap from dilution alone. Too little oleic acid, and the soap will almost always be thin and a separate thickener is required.

Too much oleic acid and you may have to add a lot of water to get a pourable product -- many high oleic soaps like to stay in a jelly form. In that case, the final diluted product may have so little soap in it that it won't perform well.

For your first batch, you really can't go wrong with IL-Carrie recipe. Here's my take on this recipe:

Olive Oil 65% (can substitute part or all of this with any high oleic oil like HO safflower, HO sunflower, avocado, etc.)
Coconut Oil 25%
Castor Bean Oil 10%
Superfat 3% or lower

Lye concentration 25% (water:lye ratio of 3)
Use all KOH as the alkali
If you don't know the KOH purity, choose the 90% pure option if using Soapee or Soapcalc

Can use all water to make the soap or can use up to 2 parts glycerin to 1 part water.
I have used 1:1 glycerin:water, 1:2 glycerin:water, 2:1 glycerin:water, and all water to make this and other LS recipes. They all work.
I do not recommend using the 100% glycerin method for safety's sake.
I recommend using distilled water, not drinking water.


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## Soapprentice

Thank you so much Deeanna... you covered all the doubts n wants..


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## BattleGnome

Beyond what DeeAnna just said, use the coconut amount that you use for a bar soap. My first batch was the IL recipe to make sure I didn’t screw up too bad. My only complaint about it was that it uses 5% more coconut than my skin tends to enjoy and I could feel it. I used something closer to my usual bar soap recipe for my next batch and my hands are doing much better.


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## DeeAnna

I agree with you, BattleGnome. I sometimes use my LS for making wool felt, and if I use the IL-Carrie recipe for doing felting, my hands get pretty dry and ashy by the end of a felting project -- usually 3-4 hours of wet soapy hands. The lauric-myristic acid for that recipe is about 17% and the oleic acid is about 50%.

I made a LS with 70% lard that has a lauric-myristic acid content of about 9% and oleic acid at 30%. Even though it is not clear and tends to separate (nope, it's not fatty acids, it's the soap -- I tested for that), my hands are much happier when I use this LS for felting. 

Just musing -- This lard LS is nicely thick even with the lower than ideal oleic acid content. I suspect the palmitic and stearic acids from the lard are contributing some to the thickness along with the oleic acid.


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## Soapprentice

i have a very dry skin and can tolerate only 10-15 CO.. so, will replacing a bit of CO with avocado or Shea work? I’m not concerned about soap being clear but would love the pearly sheen


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## DeeAnna

I want you to think this through rather than me just answer your question -- Compare the fatty acids in coconut oil with those in avocado oil and shea butter. Do avocado or shea have lower levels of lauric or myristic acids compared with coconut oil? If your goal is to lower the amount of those fatty acids (in other words, you want to lower the amount of coconut oil), does it make sense to sub avo or shea for some of the CO?


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## ngian

DeeAnna said:


> Can use all water to make the soap or can use up to 2 parts glycerin to 1 part water.
> I have used 1:1 glycerin:water, 1:2 glycerin:water, 2:1 glycerin:water, and all water to make this and other LS recipes. They all work.



Thank you for your great post DeeAnna! 

I want to ask you about the different amount of glycerin that you have tried to make liquid soap with. 

I am always using the 2:1 glycerin:water amount (while KOH solution is very hot) and the time that the ingredients reach the paste stage is around 10-15 minutes with moderate usage of the stick blender. 

If lesser amount of glycerin is used (1:2 glycerin:water) will the time to reach the paste stage be relatively longer? 

I will try this amount someday because I feel that the more glycerin is used the more suds are hindered...


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## DeeAnna

It does take a little longer as more water is used. I agree with you that glycerin does reduce the lather to some degree, so I think the trade off is worth it. 

When I use mostly or all water to make the paste, I like my initial soap batter temp to be about 170-180 F (78-80 C). To get that, I warm the fats to that temperature and use hot KOH solution. Except for that initial warming, I use a cold process method -- no crock pot, no extra heating or cooking, stick blend a little bit every few minutes until the batter is at a stable emulsion. When at trace, then cover the pot and walk away. 

The last all-water batch I made (this past March) was zap free in under 45 minutes per my notes. I wasn't hovering and zap testing every 5 mins, so the paste could have been done even earlier, but I don't know that. All I can say is it was fine at 45 mins. That's not too shabby, IMO.


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## DeeAnna

"...would love the pearly sheen..."

I don't think LS made with some avocado or shea will look very pearly -- my bet is the LS will just look cloudy, like a teaspoon of milk in a glass of water. 

Irish Lass has shared a pearly LS recipe and tutorial here on SMF. She's adding extra stearic acid and other goodies to get that pearly look.


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## Soapprentice

DeeAnna said:


> I want you to think this through rather than me just answer your question -- Compare the fatty acids in coconut oil with those in avocado oil and shea butter. Do avocado or shea have lower levels of lauric or myristic acids compared with coconut oil? If your goal is to lower the amount of those fatty acids (in other words, you want to lower the amount of coconut oil), does it make sense to sub avo or shea for some of the CO?



I understood where you are coming from and thank you for making me research... I learned a lot from it. I have coco betain with me and as it is surfactant can that be used for cleansing and foaming and reduce the CO to 15( as that is how much my skin is comfortable with in bar soap). I know that avocado and Shea does not have fatty acid profile similar to CO but I also don’t have access to babassu oil and Dont want to use palm kernel flakes. I hope you understand my dilemma .


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## Susie

Soapprentice said:


> I understood where you are coming from and thank you for making me research... I learned a lot from it. I have coco betain with me and as it is surfactant can that be used for cleansing and foaming and reduce the CO to 15( as that is how much my skin is comfortable with in bar soap). I know that avocado and Shea does not have fatty acid profile similar to CO but I also don’t have access to babassu oil and Dont want to use palm kernel flakes. I hope you understand my dilemma .



If you are not worried about clear soap, then try it!  We know it won't be clear, but that should not stop you from trying those substitutes!  More is learned by going off the path than staying on it.  Please let us know how it turns out!


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## Saranac

Soapprentice said:


> I have coco betain with me and as it is surfactant can that be used for cleansing and foaming and reduce the CO to 15( as that is how much my skin is comfortable with in bar soap).



Recently, I've been experimenting with adding synthetic surfactants to liquid soap, and I like the results.  My goal is to produce a more mild product through the use of less coconut oil, and through the mixing of surfactants with different ionic natures.

Using less coconut is easy--just use less.   As was noted in a previous post, a squirt of liquid soap tends to apply more soap to the skin than a bar, and as a result, the product can seem more cleansing (than a bar with the same FA profile).   Reducing the coconut will help, but it also decreases the lather.  Additionally, I find that LS is less quick to lather than a bar, and the thicker the soap, the harder it is to work it into a lather (at least, in my experience).  The sum of all that, is that a product with less coconut may clean, but is not easy to use (and provides few of the sensorial aspects that I have come to expect).  That is, unless you use a thin soap and a foamer bottle (my preference for hand washing!), or introduce some synthetic surfactants.

In spite of the scare-mongering around the internet, surfactants don't have to be scary, and I'm pleased to hear that you have some on hand and are willing to try it in liquid soap; a small amount of surfactant may go along way towards making your end product more mild and more easy to lather.

Generally speaking, mixing surfactants of different ionic natures (cationic, anionic, non-ionic, amphoteric) is a good thing as it produces a milder product.  Recently, I've been mixing liquid soap (anionic) with coco glucoside (non-ionic), and my observation is that the resulting product is more mild on my hands (I have not tried it in the shower yet; maybe today), it lathers quicker and is thicker.  I was able to manage all of this with just 6% coco glucoside (and 24% soap, 10% added glycerin, 60% water).  I'd also like to note that the only LS I have on hand right now is formulated with 29% coconut.  It's more than what you want to use, but it's important to note that even with that high amount, the product is more mild with the addition of a non-ionic surfactant.

This net result of a milder product ( I believe) only works with mixing different ionic strengths of surfactants.  I assume that your coco betain is cocamidopropyl betaine; if so, it is an amphoteric surfactant and as a result of the pH of soap, will be negatively charged when mixed with liquid soap.  I don't know enough of the chemistry to know if that makes it "anionic," but my thought process is that it won't be as mild when mixed with soap as it would be if mixed into an acidic solution.

With all that said, I say give it a try!  Start small and if you don't get the results you're looking for, look at a different surfactant; I'd recommend something non-ionic.  Unless you have one on hand, I'd stay away from the cationics; I once tried using a cationic conditioning ingredient (polyquat 10) in liquid soap and while it left a great skin feel and thickened the soap better than anything else I've tried, it STUNK, and eventually produced some sort of light sediment.  Sediment I can live with--but not stink.


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## Soapprentice

Yes, I mean Cocamidopropyl betaine and I don’t have any other surfactant on hand. I will give it a try and let you know.


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## Saranac

I'd love to know what you think, so please keep us updated.  I made some paste yesterday with 20% coconut and once it's diluted, I'm going to do more experimenting with the coco glucoside.  I have some cocamidopropyl betaine, and I'll give that a try as well.

I used the soap-surfactant blend (that I posted above) in the shower yesterday and while it was less irritating than a 30% coconut soap _without_ surfactant, it was still too much for a bath soap.  Another thing that I failed to mention in my last post is that the concentration of cleansers in your final product has a huge impact on perceived mildness.  Less surfactnat (or soap), the more mild the product.  I'll admit, I love the idea of making really thick and concentrated liquid soap. . . but once I lost my emotional attachment to achieving that goal, I realized that it's just too harsh for more than an occasional handwash.  Don't underestimate the value of thin soap in a foamer bottle, or thickening a less concentrated soap with *HEC*


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## Saranac

Soapprentice said:


> Yes, I mean Cocamidopropyl betaine and I don’t have any other surfactant on hand. I will give it a try and let you know.



The short of it--DON'T DO IT!

The long of it--

Okay--I tried mixing the LS with cocoamidopropyl betaine.  The liquid soap was made with the glycerin method and a KOH concentration of 33% (1 part KOH, 1 part water, 1 part glycerin).  The oils were 10% castor oil, 20% coconut, 70% HO sunflower.  I diluted the soap paste in distilled water so that I had an actual soap content of 30%.  Once it was nicely dissolved, I added 25 g of cocoamidopropyl betaine (30% active) to 100 g of liquid soap.  The results--

It thickened--a lot!  You can turn the container upside down and it doesn't move.  I would assume that less of the cocoamidopropyl betaine would produce a more managable product, but there is another problem.  In a previous post I wrote--



Saranac said:


> I'd stay away from the cationics; I once tried using a cationic conditioning ingredient (polyquat 10) in liquid soap and while it left a great skin feel and thickened the soap better than anything else I've tried, it STUNK



Well, my hypothesis proved correct and this stinks, and it smells just like any other cationic ingredient--that fishy odour that many people smell when using BTMS and other cationics.  From the research I've done, this is pH related, and since you can't lower the pH of soap, I'd take cocoamidopropyl betaine off the table (as well as other cationic ingredients).

I also mixed the same amount of soap with 15 g coco glucoside (50% active), and it's a great thickness for a body wash or similar gel-type soap.  The problem is that it's too concentrated, so I still have some work to do getting the concentration down while maintaining the thickness.


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## Soapprentice

Thank you so much... I will defined get another surfactant for the soap and try.. thank you for the heads up.


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## Saranac

You're welcome.  And I'll say, it's too bad that the soap and cocoamidopropyl betaine stink so bad.  Once I watered it down to a usable consistency, I held my breath and lathered up my hands; it's a great soap.  Unfortunately, I haven't come across anything that would mitigate the smell.  I tried a number of times to cover the smell with fragrance oil when I mixed polyquat 10 into soap, but all it did was turn me off to that particular fragrance.


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## Soapprentice

So, in the mean time of the surfactants’s delivery, I want to make IrishLass’s GLS.. I read that thread as DeeAnna suggested and I am not able to find the glycerine amount.. am I missing it?


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## Susie

Soapprentice said:


> So, in the mean time of the surfactants’s delivery, I want to make IrishLass’s GLS.. I read that thread as DeeAnna suggested and I am not able to find the glycerine amount.. am I missing it?



You use either an equal part of water to mix with the KOH, then the remainder of the water amount as glycerin added into the oils, or equal parts water and glycerin.  Again, the water mixes with the KOH, and the glycerin goes into the oils.  Keeps you from having to heat the glycerin.  But the amount of glycerin depends on the water amount in the recipe.


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## IrishLass

If you're inquiring about the 65% olive oil GLS formula, I use 10.19oz/289g glycerin, no matter what method I use to dissolve the KOH (i.e., the pharmacist method, et al). If I'm using water to dissolve the KOH (an equal amount of water as per KOH), I add the 10.19oz glycerin to the lye solution as soon as the KOH is fully dissolved into the water, then I add the whole water/glycerin/KOH solution to my warmed oils.


IrishLass


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## Soapprentice

Thank you so much for the reply, so we use the default lye concentration and split the water weight for glycerin and water. Right?


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## Soapprentice

IrishLass said:


> If you're inquiring about the 65% olive oil GLS formula, I use 10.19oz/289g glycerin, no matter what method I use to dissolve the KOH (i.e., the pharmacist method, et al). If I'm using water to dissolve the KOH (an equal amount of water as per KOH), I add the 10.19oz glycerin to the lye solution as soon as the KOH is fully dissolved into the water, then I add the whole water/glycerin/KOH solution to my warmed oils.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


We messaged at almost the same time and I didn’t see your post. 
Thank you so much IrishLass, so nice of you to share your recipe so people like me can try and learn for ourselves.


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## Soapprentice

IrishLass said:


> If you're inquiring about the 65% olive oil GLS formula, I use 10.19oz/289g glycerin, no matter what method I use to dissolve the KOH (i.e., the pharmacist method, et al). If I'm using water to dissolve the KOH (an equal amount of water as per KOH), I add the 10.19oz glycerin to the lye solution as soon as the KOH is fully dissolved into the water, then I add the whole water/glycerin/KOH solution to my warmed oils.
> 
> 
> IrishLass


Is the glycerine amount for 2 lb batch ?


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## DeeAnna

Your answer is here: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/my-creamy-cocoa-shea-gls-tutorial.57974/ See Post 1.



Soapprentice said:


> Is the glycerine amount for 2 lb batch ?


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## Soapprentice

DeeAnna said:


> Your answer is here: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/my-creamy-cocoa-shea-gls-tutorial.57974/ See Post 1.



Yeah, I realised after I posted it.. I feel liquid soap making is a whole other world.. cos I wanted to learn to use soapee for liquid soaps using Irish lass recipe and the KOH value is totally different for 3 % SF... and then there is lye concentration, how does lye concentration effect the soap ? So much to learn..


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## DeeAnna

Yes, the KOH weight needs to be different because it's a different chemical than NaOH and each KOH molecule weighs more than NaOH. When you measure out a given weight of either one, what you're really trying to do is measure a given number of molecules. If KOH molecules weigh more, you're going to have to measure more KOH by weight to get the correct number of molecules.

The lye concentration you use to make liquid soap is more about convenience and practicality than it is anything else. Many liquid soapers use a 25% lye concentration (3:1 water:lye ratio).  At this concentration, the paste is reasonably soft, so it's easier to stir and a bit easier to dilute. 

If you use a higher lye concentration (lower water:lye ratio) that means there is less water, the paste will be harder to stir, and it can be more difficult to dilute. I've done 33% lye concentration a time or two and the soap was fine, so if you want to go there, there's no big reason why not. I have to say I prefer 25% lye concentration. 

Some use a 50% lye concentration to make their paste; the one soaper I know of who does that also relies on sodium lactate to get the paste diluted. I've never tried it, so I can't say much about this personally. 

If you use a lower lye concentration (below 25%), the paste will contain more water and will be softer. This might seem to be a good thing, except in my experience lye concentration at 20% or less can make it difficult to get the soap batter to a stable emulsion, even with lots of mixing and fiddling. 

Some LS making methods call for all of the water, including dilution water, right from the beginning. These methods require the use of a continuous mixer, something most of us don't have, and hours of mixing, which most of us don't want to get into.


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## Soapprentice

Oh.. I’m not comparing KOH to NaOH, the KOH Irish lass uses is 98g and the soapee gave me with 3% sf, the lye has to be 103g.


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## DeeAnna

Now I understand your concern! It wasn't clear to me that you were wondering about IL's KOH of 98 g versus your KOH of 103 g. 

IL's 98 grams of KOH appears to be based on a KOH purity of about 95% assuming a superfat of 3%. If I recalculate the KOH weight based on 90% KOH purity and the same 3% superfat, the answer is about 103 g.


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## Soapprentice

DeeAnna said:


> Now I understand your concern! It wasn't clear to me that you were wondering about IL's KOH of 98 g versus your KOH of 103 g.
> 
> IL's 98 grams of KOH appears to be based on a KOH purity of about 95% assuming a superfat of 3%. If I recalculate the KOH weight based on 90% KOH purity and the same 3% superfat, the answer is about 103 g.


Oops I forgot about the purity... I feel like this is the 1st time I made soap.... I just hope mine comes out fine.


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## Soapprentice

Saranac said:


> Recently, I've been experimenting with adding synthetic surfactants to liquid soap, and I like the results.  My goal is to produce a more mild product through the use of less coconut oil, and through the mixing of surfactants with different ionic natures.
> 
> Using less coconut is easy--just use less.   As was noted in a previous post, a squirt of liquid soap tends to apply more soap to the skin than a bar, and as a result, the product can seem more cleansing (than a bar with the same FA profile).   Reducing the coconut will help, but it also decreases the lather.  Additionally, I find that LS is less quick to lather than a bar, and the thicker the soap, the harder it is to work it into a lather (at least, in my experience).  The sum of all that, is that a product with less coconut may clean, but is not easy to use (and provides few of the sensorial aspects that I have come to expect).  That is, unless you use a thin soap and a foamer bottle (my preference for hand washing!), or introduce some synthetic surfactants.
> 
> In spite of the scare-mongering around the internet, surfactants don't have to be scary, and I'm pleased to hear that you have some on hand and are willing to try it in liquid soap; a small amount of surfactant may go along way towards making your end product more mild and more easy to lather.
> 
> Generally speaking, mixing surfactants of different ionic natures (cationic, anionic, non-ionic, amphoteric) is a good thing as it produces a milder product.  Recently, I've been mixing liquid soap (anionic) with coco glucoside (non-ionic), and my observation is that the resulting product is more mild on my hands (I have not tried it in the shower yet; maybe today), it lathers quicker and is thicker.  I was able to manage all of this with just 6% coco glucoside (and 24% soap, 10% added glycerin, 60% water).  I'd also like to note that the only LS I have on hand right now is formulated with 29% coconut.  It's more than what you want to use, but it's important to note that even with that high amount, the product is more mild with the addition of a non-ionic surfactant.
> 
> This net result of a milder product ( I believe) only works with mixing different ionic strengths of surfactants.  I assume that your coco betain is cocamidopropyl betaine; if so, it is an amphoteric surfactant and as a result of the pH of soap, will be negatively charged when mixed with liquid soap.  I don't know enough of the chemistry to know if that makes it "anionic," but my thought process is that it won't be as mild when mixed with soap as it would be if mixed into an acidic solution.
> 
> With all that said, I say give it a try!  Start small and if you don't get the results you're looking for, look at a different surfactant; I'd recommend something non-ionic.  Unless you have one on hand, I'd stay away from the cationics; I once tried using a cationic conditioning ingredient (polyquat 10) in liquid soap and while it left a great skin feel and thickened the soap better than anything else I've tried, it STUNK, and eventually produced some sort of light sediment.  Sediment I can live with--but not stink.


 
Hi.. it’s been a while but I just got the time to try the surfactants in liquid soap. I want to know how and when do we add them to soap? While dilution or after?


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## Saranac

Soapprentice said:


> Hi.. it’s been a while but I just got the time to try the surfactants in liquid soap. I want to know how and when do we add them to soap? While dilution or after?



Because the coco glucoside that I use is thick on its own, and it tends to thicken my liquid soap, I find it easier to incorporate into my dilution water first, and then add the soap paste.

But if this is your first try, I would suggest that you dilute your paste first and then you can experiment with smaller batches to see how much surfactant you need.  Remember, the reason I add the surfactant is to aid lather--I find that they lather quicker (and with less effort) than liquid soap, so it helps to work the soap up quicker.  My "hybrid" formula is only about 3% coco glucoside.


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## Soapprentice

Saranac said:


> Because the coco glucoside that I use is thick on its own, and it tends to thicken my liquid soap, I find it easier to incorporate into my dilution water first, and then add the soap paste.
> 
> But if this is your first try, I would suggest that you dilute your paste first and then you can experiment with smaller batches to see how much surfactant you need.  Remember, the reason I add the surfactant is to aid lather--I find that they lather quicker (and with less effort) than liquid soap, so it helps to work the soap up quicker.  My "hybrid" formula is only about 3% coco glucoside.



Thank you. I will give it a try.


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## Yooper

One thing that really works for me to thicken liquid soap is to use a mix of KOH and NaOH for the liquid soap.   It really does work, and I never add anything to my soap at all.    Not much NaOH, about 70% KOH and 30% NaOH for my smallish batches of 2 pounds neat soap.    It might be worth a try to someone who wants to avoid any additives. 

I love a foaming dispenser, since it uses much less soap (less drying, and actually feels rich), and you have to thin the liquid soap a bit anyway to use it.   So a little goes a long way, and my favorite recipes foam and suds pretty well anyway but it's awesome in the shower and at the sink for hand soap.


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## Soapprentice

Yooper said:


> One thing that really works for me to thicken liquid soap is to use a mix of KOH and NaOH for the liquid soap.   It really does work, and I never add anything to my soap at all.    Not much NaOH, about 70% KOH and 30% NaOH for my smallish batches of 2 pounds neat soap.    It might be worth a try to someone who wants to avoid any additives.
> 
> I love a foaming dispenser, since it uses much less soap (less drying, and actually feels rich), and you have to thin the liquid soap a bit anyway to use it.   So a little goes a long way, and my favorite recipes foam and suds pretty well anyway but it's awesome in the shower and at the sink for hand soap.


So, I tried this, but when I dilute the soap, it looks milky and there is no zap to say that milkyness due to unreacted lye.... is it common when we use NaOH?


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## Yooper

Soapprentice said:


> So, I tried this, but when I dilute the soap, it looks milky and there is no zap to say that milkyness due to unreacted lye.... is it common when we use NaOH?



Not in my experience- my liquid soap is crystal clear.


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## hampan

I'm not sure how to post an off-topic question.  I have read all your advice and made my first batch of liquid soap today but the KOH was old.  It hadn't been opened and looked white and fresh but although I whisked it 10 min, there was no applesauce or mashed potato or taffy changes.  It was very hot and got a bit thicker but that's all.  I've covered it and will check it in the morning.  How will I know if it should be thrown out?


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## DeeAnna

People often do not see all the changes in appearance that the soap is apparently "supposed" to do. Your soap may be fine.

In a day or so, cautiously check the soap for zap. If it does not zap, then try diluting a sample of the soap. If the fat has not fully saponified, it will make the soap appear cloudy to opaque and the extra fat will probably separate from the main portion of the soap and form a floating white layer. This separation might take a little time -- perhaps a few days or so. 

If that happens, come back and ask for help. If the sample of diluted soap does not separate, then it's most likely fine. The diluted soap might be clear or it might be cloudy, depending on the recipe you used -- liquid soap is not necessarily always transparent.

To start a new thread, go to the main index for the forum in which you want to post and click "Post New Thread" in the upper right hand part of the screen. You would go here to start a new thread in this forum: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/forums/liquid-soap-and-cream-soap-forum.40/


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## Kim Pyrros

DeeAnna said:


> People often do not see all the changes in appearance that the soap is apparently "supposed" to do. Your soap may be fine.
> 
> In a day or so, cautiously check the soap for zap. If it does not zap, then try diluting a sample of the soap. If the fat has not fully saponified, it will make the soap appear cloudy to opaque and the extra fat will probably separate from the main portion of the soap and form a floating white layer. This separation might take a little time -- perhaps a few days or so.
> 
> If that happens, come back and ask for help. If the sample of diluted soap does not separate, then it's most likely fine. The diluted soap might be clear or it might be cloudy, depending on the recipe you used -- liquid soap is not necessarily always transparent.
> 
> To start a new thread, go to the main index for the forum in which you want to post and click "Post New Thread" in the upper right hand part of the screen. You would go here to start a new thread in this forum: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/forums/liquid-soap-and-cream-soap-forum.40/


Ya know I tried to make liquid soap and it wouldn’t reconstitute


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## Kim Pyrros

Ya know I tried really hard to make liquid soap. Followed directions, looked ok but I couldn’t reconstitute properly, it was soap in water- separated and didn’t like look or smell great. Barely any lather and watery, like well-  water.  Big disappointment - it was good to hear it can b done.


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## hampan

DeeAnna said:


> People often do not see all the changes in appearance that the soap is apparently "supposed" to do. Your soap may be fine.
> 
> In a day or so, cautiously check the soap for zap. If it does not zap, then try diluting a sample of the soap. If the fat has not fully saponified, it will make the soap appear cloudy to opaque and the extra fat will probably separate from the main portion of the soap and form a floating white layer. This separation might take a little time -- perhaps a few days or so.
> 
> If that happens, come back and ask for help. If the sample of diluted soap does not separate, then it's most likely fine. The diluted soap might be clear or it might be cloudy, depending on the recipe you used -- liquid soap is not necessarily always transparent.
> 
> To start a new thread, go to the main index for the forum in which you want to post and click "Post New Thread" in the upper right hand part of the screen. You would go here to start a new thread in this forum: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/forums/liquid-soap-and-cream-soap-forum.40/


Thank you DeeAnna.
It's been 14 hrs or so and the oil has separated, sitting on top.  If I did a zap test do I mix it up first?


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## Susie

hampan said:


> Thank you DeeAnna.
> It's been 14 hrs or so and the oil has separated, sitting on top.  If I did a zap test do I mix it up first?



Is this still in paste form, or liquid?  If liquid, you should have zap tested the paste, if paste, then no need to zap test if the oils are sitting on top.  There is not enough alkali to react with all the fatty acids (hence the oily layer on the top), much less leave a zap.  Don't throw it away, however!  You can mix more (new) KOH with water (I would use 1:1 ratio), and add that a little at the time until all of the oily layer gets mixed in.  Do wait between additions, though, you want to give the reaction time to take place, especially if both are room temperature.  I would plop my paste in the crock pot and heat it up to speed the reactions.  You are going to be doing a lot of mixing and adding, then waiting.


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## realtami

DeeAnna said:


> "The numbers" don't relate as well to the properties of liquid soap as they do to bar soap. The cleansing number (% of lauric and myristic acids) is the only one that I think relates to LS. When I want to look in more detail at the properties of a LS recipe, I usually check the fatty acids.
> 
> Yes, too much coconut (the % of lauric and myristic acids, to be more correct) can be drying. LS recipes for bathing and hand washing often have a little higher % of coconut than bar soap to get the lather going, but that's not a universal thing, just a tendency. Some people make a 100% coconut liquid soap for laundry or household cleaning -- I think Susie does -- but folks say their hands get pretty dry without gloves.
> 
> Another issue with LS is that one squirt contains quite a bit of soap -- much more than you'd get from rubbing a bar of soap. More soap, however mild it may be, means more cleaning power and that can mean dry skin too. And it also means more soap down the drain. One way to control over cleaning and waste is to dilute the soap enough to use it in foamer bottles.
> 
> Yes, you can theoretically use any bar soap recipe to make a liquid soap, just recalculate it for KOH. There are reasons why you might not want to, however.
> 
> If clarity of the LS is important to you, you need to reduce the % of palmitic and stearic acids in the recipe (lard, tallow, palm, butters) as low as is reasonable. Also avoid fats that have a high % of unsaponifiables -- avocado, jojoba, etc. If clarity isn't a goal, then ignore what I just said.
> 
> Castor is often used in a higher % for added clarity. The Irish Lass - Carrie recipe that is pretty popular calls for 10% castor.
> 
> Keep the oleic acid around 50% give or take if you want to have a honey thick soap from dilution alone. Too little oleic acid, and the soap will almost always be thin and a separate thickener is required.
> 
> Too much oleic acid and you may have to add a lot of water to get a pourable product -- many high oleic soaps like to stay in a jelly form. In that case, the final diluted product may have so little soap in it that it won't perform well.
> 
> For your first batch, you really can't go wrong with IL-Carrie recipe. Here's my take on this recipe:
> 
> Olive Oil 65% (can substitute part or all of this with any high oleic oil like HO safflower, HO sunflower, avocado, etc.)
> Coconut Oil 25%
> Castor Bean Oil 10%
> Superfat 3% or lower
> 
> Lye concentration 25% (water:lye ratio of 3)
> Use all KOH as the alkali
> If you don't know the KOH purity, choose the 90% pure option if using Soapee or Soapcalc
> 
> Can use all water to make the soap or can use up to 2 parts glycerin to 1 part water.
> I have used 1:1 glycerin:water, 1:2 glycerin:water, 2:1 glycerin:water, and all water to make this and other LS recipes. They all work.
> I do not recommend using the 100% glycerin method for safety's sake.
> I recommend using distilled water, not drinking water.




Hi! What’s the best way to formulate liquid soap recipee? Can we just use any CP soap recipee? What’s the best percentage of oils ( hard : soft ) to make a great liquid soap ( for body )? Thanks


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## Robyn Green

Soapprentice said:


> So, all the liquid soap experts, I have a question, well not ‘a’ but here they go.. can we use the same formula we have for solid soap for a liquid soap? does too much coconut oil result in drying an issue? As glycerine is added too... we look at hardness, drying and lasting in solid soap, what do we check for in LS?


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## Robyn Green

I use a different recipe for liquid soap. My favourite is 80% olive oil, 10% coconut oil and 10% castor oil. KOH and distilled water. (0% excess oil).
For clarity I make sure the mix has come to a very thick trace with no oil floating on top. You will have to mix for a long time unless you can get some paste from a batch before to kick start the trace process. Once traced I cook it up in a slow cooker, on Low. You can use a double saucepan but slow cooker is easier. Fill half way other wise it might spill over the edge when cooked. Cook for two and a half hours stirring every half hour. When cooked put aside paste for when you are ready to water it down. Water down one part paste to two parts distilled water. This is a beautiful all purpose liquid soap that is very moisturising on the skin. Also cleans pots and pans really well.  To create a shower gel just slowly add some salt water to the liquid soap until you get the thickness you want. I have been making this for 15 years and love it


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## realtami

Robyn Green said:


> I use a different recipe for liquid soap. My favourite is 80% olive oil, 10% coconut oil and 10% castor oil. KOH and distilled water. (0% excess oil).
> For clarity I make sure the mix has come to a very thick trace with no oil floating on top. You will have to mix for a long time unless you can get some paste from a batch before to kick start the trace process. Once traced I cook it up in a slow cooker, on Low. You can use a double saucepan but slow cooker is easier. Fill half way other wise it might spill over the edge when cooked. Cook for two and a half hours stirring every half hour. When cooked put aside paste for when you are ready to water it down. Water down one part paste to two parts distilled water. This is a beautiful all purpose liquid soap that is very moisturising on the skin. Also cleans pots and pans really well.  To create a shower gel just slowly add some salt water to the liquid soap until you get the thickness you want. I have been making this for 15 years and love it




Thank you for the reply! How can we determine the percentage of the oils? Just as we like? Is there any do’s and dont’s on how to formulating recipee for ls?


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## DeeAnna

Here are two articles I've written on this topic --
https://classicbells.com/soap/liquidSoapMaking.asp
https://classicbells.com/soap/liquidSoapRecipes.asp


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## realtami

DeeAnna said:


> Here are two articles I've written on this topic --
> https://classicbells.com/soap/liquidSoapMaking.asp
> https://classicbells.com/soap/liquidSoapRecipes.asp



Thank you. I just made a batch of LS using Irish Lass recipee but only using water. Not glycerin. I cooked for 2-3 hours but it stuck in the mashed potato stages. When I extend the cooking time, it gets hard. But still chunk of white. Never reached translucent stage. I test my soap it says 9.3 in ph meter. But when I checked it with phenolphthalein solution, the soap solution ( I mix a bit of soap into distilled water ) and it still turn into dark pink. I checked every 30 minutes, and the results is the same. Always dark pink.  Is my paste safe to use? Or am I failing? 


And do liquid soap needs to cure? Thank you


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## DeeAnna

Does Irish Lass recommend using a pH meter or phenolphthalein solution to check the soap? If I remember correctly, she recommends a zap test (tongue test) instead. I won't go into the reasons why at this time, but I suggest you follow her instructions in the tutorial. Here's a tutorial about how to do the zap test: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-properly-safely-conduct-the-zap-tongue-test.63199/

If you read the first of my articles I say this --
"..._Some authors provide detailed descriptions and photos of the visual changes their soap makes as it saponifies. These changes may or may not happen to your soap. If you do not see every visual stage shown in the tutorial, do not fret. Just keep moving forward with the process, and your soap will very likely turn out just fine. It is not necessary to cook liquid soap for hours and hours, although I know many recipes are written that way. Most liquid soap is fully saponified within about two hours, and quite often the soap is done within one hour_..."

No, liquid soap does not need to cure in the same way that bar soap does. But there is a benefit of allowing liquid soap to sit for a short time -- maybe a week or so. It lets the soap finish saponifying that last tiny little bit so the soap is as mild as possible before use. That time also allows any solids to settle or float, so they can be removed if you want to do that. Sometimes you'll see changes in texture during the first week or so, but the changes are small in my experience so I am not very concerned about that.


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## realtami

DeeAnna said:


> Does Irish Lass recommend using a pH meter or phenolphthalein solution to check the soap? If I remember correctly, she recommends a zap test (tongue test) instead. I won't go into the reasons why at this time, but I suggest you follow her instructions in the tutorial. Here's a tutorial about how to do the zap test: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-properly-safely-conduct-the-zap-tongue-test.63199/
> 
> If you read the first of my articles I say this --
> "..._Some authors provide detailed descriptions and photos of the visual changes their soap makes as it saponifies. These changes may or may not happen to your soap. If you do not see every visual stage shown in the tutorial, do not fret. Just keep moving forward with the process, and your soap will very likely turn out just fine. It is not necessary to cook liquid soap for hours and hours, although I know many recipes are written that way. Most liquid soap is fully saponified within about two hours, and quite often the soap is done within one hour_..."
> 
> No, liquid soap does not need to cure in the same way that bar soap does. But there is a benefit of allowing liquid soap to sit for a short time -- maybe a week or so. It lets the soap finish saponifying that last tiny little bit so the soap is as mild as possible before use. That time also allows any solids to settle or float, so they can be removed if you want to do that. Sometimes you'll see changes in texture during the first week or so, but the changes are small in my experience so I am not very concerned about that.



Is there aren’t any methods to check if the paste cooked or not beside the zap test? Because I am currently pregnant and I kinda scared to do it

What If I use the soap directly after I dillite it? Would it be harsh for my skin?

Thank you so much for the reply


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## Susie

realtami said:


> Is there aren’t any methods to check if the paste cooked or not beside the zap test? Because I am currently pregnant and I kinda scared to do it
> 
> What If I use the soap directly after I dillite it? Would it be harsh for my skin?
> 
> Thank you so much for the reply



If you think it is safe to brush your teeth with toothpaste, make soap, or wash your hands with soap, then it is safe for you to touch the tip of your tongue with a bit of suds from soap that you made yourself from ingredients you can actually pronounce.  No one said you had to drink the stuff.  

There is no need whatsoever to cook that paste.  You get it to full emulsification (or paste if you are in a hurry) and put the lid on it and walk away.  I generally check for gel after I clean the kitchen up from making soap, then in half an hour.  If it is gelled, I zap test and begin dilution.  Cooking does nothing more than waste time and power (or gas, or whatever you use to cook with).  The formula of the soap has everything to do with whether it is lye heavy or not.  Not cooking.  If your recipe is good, and your scale is good, then chances are that you are never going to learn what a zap feels like.  You are testing to be sure that there were no errors made on any of those things.  Not whether it is "cooked" or not.  This is just your final safety check before you give that soap to people you love.


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## realtami

Susie said:


> If you think it is safe to brush your teeth with toothpaste, make soap, or wash your hands with soap, then it is safe for you to touch the tip of your tongue with a bit of suds from soap that you made yourself from ingredients you can actually pronounce.  No one said you had to drink the stuff.
> 
> There is no need whatsoever to cook that paste.  You get it to full emulsification (or paste if you are in a hurry) and put the lid on it and walk away.  I generally check for gel after I clean the kitchen up from making soap, then in half an hour.  If it is gelled, I zap test and begin dilution.  Cooking does nothing more than waste time and power (or gas, or whatever you use to cook with).  The formula of the soap has everything to do with whether it is lye heavy or not.  Not cooking.  If your recipe is good, and your scale is good, then chances are that you are never going to learn what a zap feels like.  You are testing to be sure that there were no errors made on any of those things.  Not whether it is "cooked" or not.  This is just your final safety check before you give that soap to people you love.






I try using another recipee, and when my paste look this , I try zap test, and there were no zap. But the paste is not translucent yet, and not hard. I can stir it easily with my spatula. Is that means my soap cooked or not yet?

If it’s cooked then is it okay to dillute it immediately? I only cook that paste about 1 hour, with HIGH setting in my crock pot.

Thank you


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## realtami

Quick update, I cooked it again for 30 minutes. Did zap test, and no zap. Check the pH using pH meter, it says 8.5

When I try to dillute it (10 gr soap paste into 20 gr of distilled water ), the result is very cloudy

This is my 3rd batch using the recipee, but I usually cook the paste 4-5 hours, the dillution is almost crystal clear

Should I cook my soap longer? 

Thank you!


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## Susie

You should not cook your soap at all.  Did you not read my post? 

 If it is zapless, it is ready.  

Cloudiness is a direct result of oils and how much air you mix in.  Don't judge the soap by cloudiness.


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## Verde

So, should I cook it longer if there's a zap? I tried Jackie Thompsons 100% coconut oil recipe.


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## Susie

Zap is an indication that there is too much lye, or not enough oil.  If you have a zap, then add some oil.  I would add about 1 teaspoon/5 grams at the time until it stops zapping. Just make sure that you get an immediate zap when you touch your tongue to the lather rather than an odd sensation/taste that is not immediate before you add more oil.  If it is not immediate, it is not zap. 

But, assuming that you used a reliable lye calculator and a reliable scale, and you used a 0 superfat, you should not have zap.  You should always run every recipe through a lye calculator, no matter where you got the recipe. Typos happen.


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## realtami

Susie said:


> Zap is an indication that there is too much lye, or not enough oil.  If you have a zap, then add some oil.  I would add about 1 teaspoon/5 grams at the time until it stops zapping. Just make sure that you get an immediate zap when you touch your tongue to the lather rather than an odd sensation/taste that is not immediate before you add more oil.  If it is not immediate, it is not zap.
> 
> But, assuming that you used a reliable lye calculator and a reliable scale, and you used a 0 superfat, you should not have zap.  You should always run every recipe through a lye calculator, no matter where you got the recipe. Typos happen.


hi! my LS soap paste zap so much, when I check with pH strips, it says 14. i think i messed up with my water calculation. any advise? thanks

should I just add more water, or add more oils?

thank you


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## DeeAnna

More water wll not solve this problem. If your soap contains too much alkali, you need to follow Susie's advice about adding more oil.

If you want better advice, post your entire recipe and method. You have not given enough information for us to troubleshoot this problem.


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## Zany_in_CO

realtami said:


> I test my soap it says 9.3 in ph meter. But when I checked it with phenolphthalein solution, the soap solution ( I mix a bit of soap into distilled water ) and it still turn into dark pink.


Hi *@realtami* If you add water to the paste to test, it will always turn dark pink in water. Just stick a knife or something similar into the paste. Then add a drop of 1% phenolthalein solution to the bit of soap on the knife. It should be clear. Then watch what happens when you rinse the knife in a glass of water... it turns bright pink!

Go to #12 & #13 on *this page* to learn how to properly test LS with either phenolphthalein drops or soap-in-water methods.


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## tomatoes

Is


DeeAnna said:


> "The numbers" don't relate as well to the properties of liquid soap as they do to bar soap. The cleansing number (% of lauric and myristic acids) is the only one that I think relates to LS. When I want to look in more detail at the properties of a LS recipe, I usually check the fatty acids.
> 
> Yes, too much coconut (the % of lauric and myristic acids, to be more correct) can be drying. LS recipes for bathing and hand washing often have a little higher % of coconut than bar soap to get the lather going, but that's not a universal thing, just a tendency. Some people make a 100% coconut liquid soap for laundry or household cleaning -- I think Susie does -- but folks say their hands get pretty dry without gloves.
> 
> Another issue with LS is that one squirt contains quite a bit of soap -- much more than you'd get from rubbing a bar of soap. More soap, however mild it may be, means more cleaning power and that can mean dry skin too. And it also means more soap down the drain. One way to control over cleaning and waste is to dilute the soap enough to use it in foamer bottles.
> 
> Yes, you can theoretically use any bar soap recipe to make a liquid soap, just recalculate it for KOH. There are reasons why you might not want to, however.
> 
> If clarity of the LS is important to you, you need to reduce the % of palmitic and stearic acids in the recipe (lard, tallow, palm, butters) as low as is reasonable. Also avoid fats that have a high % of unsaponifiables -- avocado, jojoba, etc. If clarity isn't a goal, then ignore what I just said.
> 
> Castor is often used in a higher % for added clarity. The Irish Lass - Carrie recipe that is pretty popular calls for 10% castor.
> 
> Keep the oleic acid around 50% give or take if you want to have a honey thick soap from dilution alone. Too little oleic acid, and the soap will almost always be thin and a separate thickener is required.
> 
> Too much oleic acid and you may have to add a lot of water to get a pourable product -- many high oleic soaps like to stay in a jelly form. In that case, the final diluted product may have so little soap in it that it won't perform well.
> 
> For your first batch, you really can't go wrong with IL-Carrie recipe. Here's my take on this recipe:
> 
> Olive Oil 65% (can substitute part or all of this with any high oleic oil like HO safflower, HO sunflower, avocado, etc.)
> Coconut Oil 25%
> Castor Bean Oil 10%
> Superfat 3% or lower
> 
> Lye concentration 25% (water:lye ratio of 3)
> Use all KOH as the alkali
> If you don't know the KOH purity, choose the 90% pure option if using Soapee or Soapcalc
> 
> Can use all water to make the soap or can use up to 2 parts glycerin to 1 part water.
> I have used 1:1 glycerin:water, 1:2 glycerin:water, 2:1 glycerin:water, and all water to make this and other LS recipes. They all work.
> I do not recommend using the 100% glycerin method for safety's sake.
> I recommend using distilled water, not drinking water.



Hi.. 
Is this recipe will make your LS thicker? like honey consistency ?
Thanks..


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## Susie

tomatoes said:


> Is
> 
> 
> Hi..
> Is this recipe will make your LS thicker? like honey consistency ?
> Thanks..



It will give you thick liquid soap if you dilute the paste at the recommended 1 part paste to 0.75 parts distilled water.


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## Nibiru2020

I did this recipe today and it came out great!  Hot Process Glycerin Liquid Soap Recipe

Here's a photo of the final result.  I made a half-sized batch.


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